House of Commons
Prayers
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Oral Answers to Questions
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
1. What recent discussions he has had with his counterparts in Germany, the Netherlands and Ireland regarding the level of per capita carbon emissions and the future policy of those countries.
The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)
I frequently have talks with my German, Dutch and Irish counterparts. In April, for example, I attended informal energy and environment councils in Dublin, where discussions with other member states, including Germany, the Netherlands and Ireland, focused on the EU 2030 climate and energy framework.
David Mowat
The March European Environment Agency report confirmed that the UK’s per capita emissions are among the lowest in Europe, and in 2011 they fell at double the rate of those of the rest of the EU. Furthermore, the recent emissions trading scheme vote by the European Parliament means the UK has a carbon price six times higher than the rest of the EU, and now we are seeing several countries moving ahead to build coal stations that will not use carbon capture and storage. Is there a risk that we are increasingly acting unilaterally in this area?
Mr Davey
Let me reassure my hon. Friend. We work very closely with our European colleagues, and I formed the green growth group, currently working with about nine other member states, including our German and Dutch colleagues. We need to reform the ETS to make sure we have a functioning and effective carbon market in Europe, and we also need an ambitious 2030 target for greenhouse gas emissions. The UK Government have agreed that we will seek a 50% target in the context of winning a global climate change treaty.
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
What is the point of us closing coal-fired power stations if Germany is opening 20 of them? What is the point of us having a carbon tax and reducing emissions if we thereby release trading permits for other countries in Europe to emit more carbon?
Mr Davey
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his question. He is not right about the German position, and I refer him to the April 2013 report by Pöyry, which we commissioned and which is on our website. It examines the reality of what is happening with new coal-fired power stations in Germany, the Netherlands and Spain. Some 10 new coal and lignite coal projects are under construction in Germany, because the final investment decisions on them were taken in 2005 and 2008, when there was a very different policy environment, but four have been postponed and 22 have now been abandoned, so the situation in Germany is different from the one my right hon. Friend describes.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
Carbon emissions per capita statistics fail to recognise the effect of imports and exports on consumption. Will the Secretary of State confirm that he will not seek to meet UK targets through policies that close down our energy-intensive industries, thereby exporting jobs and importing carbon?
Mr Davey
My hon. Friend is right. We do not want to see carbon leakage; that would not help the climate, and it would not help our economy. That is why I agreed with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills a very generous package, working with the Chancellor, to compensate energy-intensive industries for the indirect costs of the ETS and the carbon price floor, and it is also why we have exempted energy-intensive industries from the costs of contracts for difference. We want to ensure we make progress on climate change, but we also want to ensure we keep successful businesses in the United Kingdom.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
2. What steps he is taking to help households with their energy bills.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)
This coalition Government are determined to help hard-working families with the cost of living. We have a range of initiatives to help with energy bills. From the Prime Minister’s proposals to get consumers on to the cheapest energy tariffs to our flagship green deal, and from the warm home discount to our promotion of collective switching and building a more competitive energy market, this Government are putting the consumer first.
Andrew Gwynne
The Minister must be aware that the respected think-tank the Institute for Public Policy Research has produced a report that shows that if the energy market were more competitive, bills could be reduced by at least £70 from efficiency savings alone, so why will he not get behind Labour’s plans to break the dominance of the big six by ensuring that they supply energy into a pool to enable more businesses to access the market and to bring down bills for customers?
Gregory Barker
The hon. Gentleman will forgive us if we do not take lessons on how to widen the big six from the party that created the big six. When Labour came to office there were 14 major participants in the energy sector; when they left office, the number had shrunk to six. We believe our radical energy market reforms that are going through the House are the way to bring in real competition.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that making bills simpler and easier to understand is a big step towards empowering consumers to allow them to make the best choices and get the best deals?
Gregory Barker
Absolutely. My hon. Friend is, as ever, spot on. We have been working very closely with Ofgem to ensure that consumers are not baffled by the information on their bills and that they can make informed choices. Our market reforms will make it even easier for them to get the best deal.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
12. This House was told that the green deal would be the biggest home improvement scheme since the second world war, creating thousands of jobs and hundreds of new businesses. If that were true, why does Enact Energy, which has been in the insulation business for 20 years, cite late payments from the green deal as having put it into administration, resulting in the laying off of all its staff?
Gregory Barker
Obviously, we are very sorry when any business goes into administration, but I think the hon. Gentleman is being a little hasty. It is very early days for the green deal and for one business that, sadly, has gone into receivership there are dozens, if not hundreds, of new small and medium-sized enterprises that are starting up to come into the new competitive marketplace that we are creating.
John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
What steps are being taken to stop profiteering by the National Grid, which can charge a fortune to move or change a domestic meter?
Gregory Barker
If my hon. Friend has real evidence of profiteering, we would love to see it. If he shares it with us, we will take steps to crack down on it.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Minister agree that smart metering gives the consumer—the householder—real information on how much energy they are using? How quickly can we get smart metering into every home in Britain, hopefully along with a carbon monoxide detector that will save people’s lives?[Official Report, 12 June 2013, Vol. 564, c. 1MC.]
Gregory Barker
First, on carbon monoxide detectors, the hon. Gentleman is the champion in this House of that very important technology and I thank him for his engagement with my Department. We are working closely to ensure that the green deal will push through the roll-out of carbon monoxide detectors.
On smart meters, we now have what we believe to be the most ambitious programme in Europe, beginning in earnest in 2014 and completing by 2019. It is very exciting and very radical.
Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)
On 12 occasions the Prime Minister has promised to force the energy companies by law to put everyone on to the cheapest tariff, but clause 121 of the Energy Bill clearly states that the power to require an energy company to change a customer’s tariff applies only to people on closed tariffs. There are 25.5 million households in Britain. How many are on closed tariffs?
Gregory Barker
I cannot give the right hon. Lady the exact figure off the top of my head, so I will write to her on that. The Labour party is in complete denial. The Prime Minister pledged radical action to put everyone on to the cheapest tariffs for them. We have come forward with a solution and we have put it into law; the Opposition had 13 years to do that and did nothing for consumers. We are taking radical action to cut through the swathe of tariffs that they left consumers when they left office.
Caroline Flint
I have tabled written questions, I have asked Ofgem and now I have asked the Minister, and nobody can tell me how many people will find themselves on a better deal, let alone save money.
Let us look at another promise. On Tuesday, the Secretary of State told the House that the Energy Bill would give Ofgem the power to force energy companies to compensate consumers, something I called for in October 2011. Ofgem is undertaking 15 formal investigations with another 12 cases at informal review stage. Will the Minister confirm that even after the Energy Bill has received Royal Assent and even if there is evidence of wrongdoing in any of those cases, Ofgem will have no powers to force the companies to pay a single penny in compensation to their customers?
Gregory Barker
It is a big pity that the right hon. Lady first started taking an interest in these matters in 2011 and not during the 13 years for which Labour was in government when it did nothing to address those issues for the consumer. I am happy to say that our Energy Bill takes those issues into account and Ofgem will be able to take them into account as the investigations go through. This Government are putting the consumer first after 13 years of inaction from Labour.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
4. What his assessment is of the potential effect on the UK wind industry of not setting a target to decarbonise the power sector by 2030.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
7. What representations he has received on setting a target to decarbonise the power sector by 2030.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
13. What representations he has received on setting a target to decarbonise the power sector by 2030.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
15. What representations he has received on setting a target to decarbonise the power sector by 2030.
The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)
The Government have listened to a wide range of views on the issue of setting a decarbonisation target and have legislated to set one. We fully recognise that investor certainty is essential to delivering our energy and climate goals at the least cost and have already provided very clear signals to industry about the long-term trajectory of the electricity sector; for example, through our commitment to the levy control framework, through the Energy Bill, through carbon budgets and through our commitment to ambitious long-run targets on renewables, power sector decarbonisation and carbon emission reductions.
Chi Onwurah
When I asked the Prime Minister yesterday to show some leadership and stand up for British business and green jobs by setting a target, he claimed that business was against it, but when the Secretary of State was asked earlier, he could not name a single business that opposed it. Can he now name a business that has thanked him for voting against the target?
Mr Davey
The hon. Lady needs to look at what has happened. We have drafted the legislation so that we can set a target and that has been welcomed. She should remember that when the draft Energy Bill was published and we first started to discuss electricity market reform, there were no proposals to set a power sector decarbonisation target—not from the Opposition or from any other party in this House—but I, as Secretary of State, argued in the Government to set such a target, and that is what we have done.
Paul Blomfield
We have very little economic growth in this country at the moment, but last year the CBI estimated that one third of the growth that there is comes from green business. To keep growing, green businesses say they need certainty about Government policy and they want a target in law to decarbonise the power sector by 2030. Why are the Government refusing to listen?
Alison Seabeck
On Tuesday, the Government said they opposed the 2030 decarbonisation target, in part on the ground that it would increase bills. If that were so, one would expect Fuel Poverty Action to agree with the Government, but it does not. Instead, it said:
“in failing to set a target for clean energy, the Government has yet again let down hard-up UK households.”
Will the Secretary of State explain his position in the light of that statement and say whether it would also apply to his long-grass target?
Mr Davey
I am afraid the hon. Lady has not read the Bill; she needs to go back and do some more research. The difference in the debate has been about when the target is set, not if a target is set. The new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo) dealt with whether it should be set in 2014; the Government have legislated to give us the power to set it in 2016, 14 years before it needs to be met. That is an ambitious position and we are yet again leading the world.
Diana Johnson
On Tuesday, most Liberal Democrat MPs tore up their own party policy to join the anti-green Tories in voting down a carbon target, which would have provided the certainty needed for Siemens finally to commit to coming to Hull. Would the Government have shown greater urgency if it was about jobs in Kingston upon Thames, rather than Kingston upon Hull?
Mr Davey
I worry about all the Kingstons in the United Kingdom and as Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, I represent all of them. I am working extremely hard to make sure we get investment in the energy sector in this country and we are working with Siemens. The hon. Lady may be interested to know that, in fact, Siemens did not sign the most recent letter from a number of companies about this issue. In our discussions with Siemens, the issues that have come up are contracts for difference, strike prices, ports and infrastructure, and we are working with the company. The hon. Lady ought to get behind us and support us.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
One of the key ways the Government can decarbonise power generation is by increasing investment in the nuclear sector. URENCO has a base in Capenhurst in my constituency. In April, the Government announced that they were to sell their one third share in the company, and in May the Dutch Government announced that they would sell their one third share. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on the progress of the sale?
Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)
The Secretary of State’s answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) was not satisfactory. How does he account for the dramatic decline in levels of private sector investment in the renewables sector?
Mr Davey
Since this Government came to power, there has been a very big increase in investment in renewables. It is true that in the past few months the investment has not continued at the rate that we have seen. Why is that? Because people are waiting for the draft strike prices for contracts for difference for renewables, which we will publish next month. We are making real progress on our electricity market reform, and I am delighted to remind the House that on Tuesday this House voted for the Energy Bill on Third Reading by 396 votes to 8. That shows that we have cross-party support for our reforms and we are taking them forward.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
5. What assessment he has made of the level of support for onshore wind in those areas affected by the mid-Wales connection project.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)
Financial support for onshore wind from 2013 to 2017 was reduced by 10% from 1 April 2013. I hope my hon. Friend will welcome this morning’s announcement that local people will now have more control over wind farm developments in their area. They will be consulted earlier and they will have more say against turbines that are poorly sited or inadequately justified.
Glyn Davies
Since power to decide large onshore wind farms—those over 50 MW—is not devolved to the Welsh Government, will my right hon. Friend reassure me that the changes to planning policy that will be announced this morning will apply to the wind farms that the mid-Wales connection is being built to accommodate?
Michael Fallon
I am sure my hon. Friend will understand that I cannot comment on any specific wind farm proposal that is subject to the local planning authority and potentially to the Planning Inspectorate and Ministers, but as he will shortly hear in more detail from the unstarred question which I think you have allowed, Mr Speaker, the planning guidance is to be clarified to ensure that the visual impact of turbines, the cumulative impact of turbines and local factors are taken more clearly into account before consent is given.
Mr Speaker
The Minister got the U right, but the U is not for unstarred; it is for urgent.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
I welcome local authorities being allowed to make their own decisions on the merits of wind turbine applications. Does the Minister agree that setting excessive minimum separation distances, as proposed in a private Member’s Bill in the House of Lords last year, or more recently by Wiltshire council, only serves to deny local communities the chance to have their say?
Michael Fallon
I am not persuaded that minimum distances are the answer, because it is important to take into account the factors that apply to every specific application and these things should be judged locally and individually on a case-by-case basis. However, in the clearer planning guidance that is being issued today it is the visual impact as much as the siting of the turbines that will now be taken more fully into account.
Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
6. What steps he is taking to encourage green investment.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)
The coalition is committed to growing the green economy. An unprecedented £29 billion of new investment has been announced in renewable energy alone since 2010. We are driving further green investment through the Energy Bill, the green deal and the energy company obligation, the green investment bank, our carbon capture and storage competition, the reformed feed-in tariff, the renewable heat incentive, and our support for low-carbon research and innovation.
Pauline Latham
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his article in The Daily Telegraph today showing that we are working closely with Sweden on these matters. What assessment has he made of the proposed EU anti-dumping tariffs on the Chinese solar PVs?
Gregory Barker
My hon. Friend is right. We are very concerned by the impact of EU tariffs on the UK solar industry. In the past three years we have added about 2.5 GW of solar here in the UK. We are making great progress but that could be jeopardised if those tariffs go ahead. I have personally been to Brussels with a number of key stakeholders from the UK solar industry to lobby the Commission, and we will continue to fight on for open borders and for the interests of the UK renewables industry.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Will the Minister explain why the UK has fallen to seventh in the world for investment in clean energy since the Government came to power?
Gregory Barker
There are a number of surveys, but the Ernst and Young survey shows that the UK is now the fifth most attractive place for renewables investment and deployment, up one place on last year.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
The announcement by the Scottish Government of the relaunch of the marine renewables commercialisation fund, while welcome, has, as my right hon. Friend knows, created an imbalance between that and Wave Hub in west Cornwall. What can the Government do to ensure that the Scottish Government and this Government work in partnership on marine renewables?
Gregory Barker
As my hon. Friend knows, I am a keen champion of UK-wide marine energy. Under this coalition, we have opened a marine energy park in the south-west, and also in the waters off the north of Scotland. It is vital that we develop the marine resource right the way around the British Isles. However, I take on board the point raised by my hon. Friend, who is a big champion of marine energy in the south-west, and I will be happy to meet him to discuss it further.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
Why does research by Bloomberg New Energy Finance show that investment in renewables has more than halved since this Government came to power?
Gregory Barker
Actually, as I said, an unprecedented sum of over £29 billion has been invested in renewables since the coalition came to power. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, there has been a slight tailing off in recent months, but that is to be expected, just as we expect a real acceleration once the strike price is announced and the Energy Bill is enacted.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I want to pursue further the EU’s imposition of tariffs. Perhaps the Minister could explain how on earth this will do anything to make it easier for people, if they wish, to install solar panels, and how on earth it will do anything to make it cheaper for those struggling to pay their energy bills.
Gregory Barker
My hon. Friend and I are absolutely on the same page on this matter. That is why I am fighting this EU proposal very hard. It is not just me; 18 other member states take a similar view to us. We are determined to continue to push the EU Commission to come to a sensible agreement with China and to make sure that the EU stands for free trade and open borders.
Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
One significant form of low-carbon green investment that the Secretary of State spoke about during his speech to the Met Office on Monday is carbon capture and storage. His predecessor told the House in October 2011, when Scottish Power pulled out of the Longannet project, that he guaranteed that there would be no Treasury backsliding on the capital funds for CCS demonstrator projects in the competition. Will the Minister confirm whether that remains the case—yes or no—and whether the £1 billion is still available?
Tom Greatrex
I am grateful for that answer, and I am sure that those in the industry who will be slightly disconcerted by the tenor of some of the remarks by the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), during the passage of the Energy Bill will be gratified as well. However, may I press the Minister a little further? Given that the Cabinet Office project assessment review that I obtained last year said that in the current comprehensive spending review only £200 million was available, will the remainder of the £1 billion be available for the next CSR period? Can he confirm that whatever else he has given up in his less grand bargain with the Treasury on DECC’s budget, that money is safeguarded for CCS in the next CSR period?
Gregory Barker
I am very happy to scotch the hon. Gentleman’s baseless scaremongering and political point-scoring. The fact of the matter is that we are going forward with the CCS programme, and it is going to be successful, unlike Labour’s failed attempts at CCS. We have two preferred bidders in place, and it is backed by £1 billion, putting the UK at the front of the global race for carbon capture and storage.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
8. What recent assessment he has made of the likely level of future fuel poverty in the UK.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
9. Whether he plans to take further steps to reduce the level of fuel poverty in the UK.
Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
11. What recent assessment he has made of the likely level of future fuel poverty in the UK.
The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)
Recently published statistics show a modest fall in fuel poverty in 2011 compared with 2010, from 4.75 million UK households to 4.5 million UK households. This is welcome, but we are determined to do more. Our comprehensive policy package includes targeted energy efficiency measures under the green deal and the energy company obligation, direct bill rebates under the warm home discount and, of course, measures through the Energy Bill to back Ofgem’s proposals to simplify the market.
Julie Hilling
Under the previous Labour Government, the number of people in fuel poverty fell by 1.75 million. In the past two years, the number of households in fuel poverty has gone up from one in five to one in four. When next year’s figures come out, will the number of people in fuel poverty be higher or lower than when Labour left office?
Mr Davey
The hon. Lady will know that during the previous Parliament, when Labour was in office, fuel poverty grew in every single year and that, according to the latest figures, it has now gone down. In many ways this is a rather odd debate. The Government commissioned Professor Hills to review how we measure fuel poverty and he has come up with proposals that have gained wide-scale acceptance. We have consulted on them and will respond shortly to that consultation. We believe that the old measurements of fuel poverty, which are still in use, need radical reform so that we can better target fuel poverty policy.
Mark Lazarowicz
The problem with Government measures such as putting the consumer on to the cheapest tariff—if that ever happens—is that they will not make much difference if the tariff prices themselves and energy prices are high. The main beneficiaries of the green deal are not people on low incomes, but people who will be able to take up the arrangements. What is the Secretary of State doing to help people on low incomes who face high energy bills now, particularly given the high fuel prices over the past few months?
Mr Davey
We have a whole range of measures. For a start, the warm home discount helps more than 2 million low-income people, including 1 million of the poorest pensioners, by taking £130 off their bill directly. Schemes such as collective switching mean that we are helping people club together to exercise power in the market to get better rates. The simplification of tariffs proposed by Ofgem will mean greater competition and choice for people. We have a whole range of measures. On energy efficiency, the energy company obligation, through the affordable warmth and carbon saving communities schemes, is helping people in fuel poverty.
Fiona O'Donnell
The Secretary of State clearly thinks he is doing a great job on fuel poverty. In which case, why does his own Department’s public attitudes survey show that concern about energy bills has risen from 49% last year to 59% this year? Is not this another example of a Government who are out of touch with ordinary people?
Mr Davey
I am extremely concerned by energy bills. We need to do as much as we possibly can and some of our new policies will help people. I say to the Labour party that it is this coalition Government who are reforming tariffs to take away the confusion and complexity that the previous Government failed to tackle, who are looking into collective switching to help people get a better deal from energy companies, and who are getting more competition in our energy market. We are taking a whole range of measures to help consumers.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
Despite the initiatives that the Secretary of State has referred to, in the real world bills are going up and the energy companies are making massive profits. Thousands of my constituents are having difficulties paying their bills. When did the Secretary of State last meet the energy companies, and did he raise with them the amount of profit they are making and what was their answer?
Mr Davey
I think I met the big six together in one group last month. I will have to clarify the date on which we spoke. We discussed a number of issues. I made it clear to them that competition and consumer service are critical. One of the best ways to make sure that companies make reasonable profits is through healthy competition.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
10. What steps he is taking to ensure the UK leads the way in energy efficiency.
The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)
This Government’s November energy efficiency strategy clearly sets out the importance of reducing our energy demand and how the UK has an opportunity to lead the world in improving its energy efficiency. Game-changing initiatives such as the green deal, electricity demand reduction and the roll-out of smart meters are central to realising this opportunity.
David Rutley
Does my right hon. Friend agree that helping to improve home insulation is vital when helping to take people out of fuel poverty? What is this Government’s energy company obligation doing to help vulnerable and lower-income families in that vital task?
Mr Davey
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Energy prices have gone up massively on global markets and we as a Government need to cushion people from those rising prices by helping them with energy efficiency, and through the green deal and ECO we are doing just that. The affordable warmth component of ECO is already making a major difference for people in fuel poverty and helping to tackle it.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s saying that he wants to support people, but there has been a 97% plummet in the number of cavity wall insulation installations, one in four insulation workers has lost their job since December and, according to industry reports, just three people are paying back a green deal loan on their electricity bill. When is he going to make the green deal a good deal, so that the ambition that we all share is achieved?
Mr Davey
It is already a good deal. I understand the issue in the cavity wall insulation market, but the hon. Lady will understand that there are very few cavity walls left to fill. The real issue in the building fabric of the nation is solid walls. There are 7 million solid walls that are yet to be treated for energy efficiency. The last Government did almost nothing to tackle that. The green deal and ECO will do something about it. That is where the biggest wins are available and we are proud of what we are doing.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
14. What recent progress he has made on the roll-out of the green deal.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)
The coalition is committed to helping consumers up and down the UK reduce their energy bills by driving energy efficiency. The green deal went live on time, as planned, on Monday 28 January. By the end of April, more than 18,000 assessments had been carried out. Later this month, we will publish data on the number of green deal plans and a breakdown of measures installed through the green deal and ECO.
Damian Hinds
It is encouraging to hear of so many assessments, but how many providers does the Minister anticipate will be offering plans by the end of the year?
Gregory Barker
My hon. Friend is right that the number of companies that are able to offer finance is key. I am extremely encouraged that four companies are already writing plans. The Green Deal Finance Company anticipates that another eight companies will start this month and that a further 20 will begin to write plans by the end of July. We think that about 50-plus companies will offer finance by the end of the year. Ultimately, when to start writing plans is a commercial decision for each company because the green deal is primarily a private sector market that is being created by this Government.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
16. What progress the Government has made on facilitating exploration of UK shale gas reserves.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)
We have strengthened the regulatory framework to protect the environment and to ensure that hydraulic fracturing is done properly and safely. We want to encourage shale exploration. That is why we have announced fiscal incentives for developers and why we are working on a package of community benefits, such as discounts on bills for residents in drilling areas.
Michael Fallon
We are discussing that matter with the industry and will consult on more specific proposals shortly. It is important that residents who suffer disruption in areas where there is drilling see benefits from it, either for their local community through grants or expenditure, or, better still, through discounts on their bills, which could be significant.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
17. When he next plans to visit home energy efficiency schemes in Milton Keynes.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)
I was delighted to visit Milton Keynes in July last year, when I was pleased to launch new guidance for local authorities under the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995 and to visit, with my hon. Friend, the Lakes estate retrofit project, which is improving homes and cutting energy bills for his constituents.
Iain Stewart
As part of the pioneer places project in Milton Keynes, the National Energy Foundation has engaged with 30 local traders to promote the benefits of becoming green deal installers. What plans does my right hon. Friend have to roll out that scheme nationally?
Gregory Barker
My hon. Friend has done a huge amount in the Milton Keynes area to work with small and medium-sized enterprises and traders in the supply chain. Nationally, we have provided more than £2 million to support the training of 1,000 go-early green deal assessors and 1,000 advisers as part of our support for the developing market. Since last autumn, DECC has organised a series of 12 roadshows, which have reached more than 1,600 companies across the country. My team has worked most recently with Energy UK to deliver a further regional roadshow programme. It is early days for the green deal, but the prospects are exciting.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Will the Minister agree to my hon. Friend’s request to go to Milton Keynes, because he could then pop down the road to Wellingborough to meet councillors and constituents who are worried about applications for wind farms that, although not in the constituency, would affect them? That would be a great opportunity to explain our new policy.
Gregory Barker
I would be delighted to return to Milton Keynes, and to visit the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), particularly if there is an opportunity to compare notes with Mrs Bone.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
18. With reference to the findings of the all-party parliamentary group on off-gas grid, what plans he has to help residents living off the gas grid.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)
I am grateful to the all-party group on off-gas grid for its informative report. I chaired a round table in May with colleagues from that group, consumer groups, local government and industry, as a result of which a better consumer code of practice is being circulated by the Federation of Petroleum Suppliers. Fuel Poverty Action is developing recommendations on information sharing and vulnerable customers, and Ofgem is considering connecting electricity and gas priority service registers to other markets, including heating oil.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
I thank the Minister for that answer and welcome the developments that have been made as the all-party group continues its good work. Will the Minister review the progress that has been made and meet the group again so that further representations can be made and we keep the providers of that type of power up to speed?
Michael Fallon
I reassure my hon. Friend that the round table I was privileged to chair was not a one-off event and I shall be organising a further meeting on 11 September to chase up progress. I am happy to meet specifically the all-party group, as well as continuing to chair the round table.
Topical Questions
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)
Since my Department’s last question time, the remaining stages of the Energy Bill have been completed and approved by this House by 396 votes to 8. The Bill has been introduced into the other place as we make further progress to build the world’s first ever low-carbon electricity market.
For consumers, I published the Government’s response to the discussion document, “Ensuring a better deal for energy consumers”, which confirmed the Government’s backing for Ofgem’s market reforms that are designed to improve competition in retail markets and help consumers. Today, along with the Department for Communities and Local Government, we have published the Government’s decisions on onshore wind to give communities a greater say, setting out an industry-proposed fivefold increase in benefits for communities in England, and keeping financial support for onshore wind at the rate of 0.9 renewables obligation certificates.
Tom Blenkinsop
Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland has more than 7,000 households living in fuel poverty, and since this Government came to power the energy bill of the average family has leapt by more than £300 a year. Will the Minister please tell the House why the Government have halved support for people in fuel poverty while giving millionaires a tax break?
Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)
T2. One way we can reduce the cost of heating and carbon emissions is through the use of biomass boilers, which can save households hundreds of pounds each year. The Government have a target of installing 1 million biomass boilers in the UK by 2030, but some are concerned that the target might not be met. Will the Minister outline what steps are being taken to achieve the target, and meet businesses such as Baxi UK in my constituency to discuss the issue?
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)
I know that my hon. Friend does a huge amount for businesses in his constituency, and I would be happy to meet him, Baxi UK, and representatives of the industry in my Department. The coalition Government are committed to delivering not just cheaper bills but cleaner energy, and biomass boilers are part of that strategy. The good news is that we have recently announced that renewable heat payment vouchers for biomass will increase to £2,000 until March 2014, and later this summer we will provide details for the scheme that we will be launching for domestic renewable heat initiatives next spring.
Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)
Apparently, more than 5 million homes could still benefit from cavity wall insulation, so there is still a lot of work that could be done.
The Government have claimed it is too early to set a decarbonisation target for 2030, but next month they will publish their electricity market reform delivery plan, which will determine our energy mix and its carbon intensity. In the absence of a legally binding decarbonisation target, will the Secretary of State at least confirm that his long overdue delivery plan will be in line with our legally binding carbon budgets, or will the Government be rewriting the fourth carbon budget?
Mr Davey
No, the plan will be in line with our legally binding obligations. As I have explained to the House, before we set the decarbonisation target in 2016 we will give National Grid guidance on setting the EMR delivery plan to ensure that it is on path to meet our decarbonisation targets in the least-cost way.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
T3. The Minister will be aware that I represent Thoresby colliery in my constituency, one of the most efficient and profitable pits in the country. Is he optimistic for the future of coal mining in Nottinghamshire, and does he remember my invitation to visit?
Michael Fallon
I would be delighted to visit my hon. Friend’s constituency. He will know that deep-mine coal in this country has suffered a number of setbacks this year, including the serious fire at Daw Mill colliery. I assure him that my officials continue to work with the company to do our best to ensure its continued viability. We are also in touch with the situation in Scotland to ensure that everything possible can be done to replace some of the jobs that were lost when the company there went into liquidation.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
T4. On some energy issues, such as setting a date for a decarbonisation target, the Government appear to be extremely slow, but on others, such as the exploitation of shale gas, they want to rush ahead at great speed without looking at environmental and safety considerations. Will the Secretary of State commit to looking properly at those considerations before any extraction takes place?
Mr Davey
In 2016, we will be the first country to set a decarbonisation target, so the idea that we are being slow on that is preposterous. On shale gas, we are behind other countries—she may have noticed that the US has already gone into it. We are determined to see whether this country can benefit from shale gas, but we will ensure that we protect the environment and take the public with us. That is the right way to get the benefits for the country that shale gas might well offer.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
T6. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on today’s announcement that local opinion will no longer be trumped at the planning stage by national policy. However, everyone in my constituency wants to know whether that applies to the six large wind farm applications, over which planning power is not devolved, and which are currently being heard at the UK’s largest ever public inquiry, which started yesterday. Everybody in my constituency is desperate to know whether those applications are subject to the new policy.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
T5. Will the Secretary of State explain why, at the same time as energy bills are soaring, research from Energy Bill Revolution and the Association for the Conservation of Energy shows that help for people most in need is falling?
Mr Davey
I have not seen the research to which the hon. Lady refers. Given that we have introduced the warm home discount, which targets some of the poorest households in our country, taking £130 directly off their bills, I would be surprised by such findings. I reassure her and the House that the Government are not complacent on the challenge of fuel poverty. We know we need to do as much as possible, which is why we commissioned Professor Hills, why we consulted on many of his proposals, and why we will respond. We will shortly produce a framework on fuel poverty and produce a strategy by the end of the year. The Government believe that that should be a high priority.
Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)
T7. When will the British Geological Survey review of shale gas reserves be published? Given that IGas recently found that there are 20 times the previous estimates of reserves, does the Minister agree that shale represents a major strategic advantage for Britain, in meeting energy demand and decarbonisation?
Michael Fallon
I can confirm to my hon. Friend that the BGS report will be published before the summer recess. There have been a number of optimistic estimates of the amount of shale in the UK. Shale clearly has enormous potential. It would therefore be irresponsible of us not to encourage exploration to see exactly what is down there.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
The Teesside Low Carbon consortium, comprising some of the country’s top companies and experts, was rightly disappointed when its innovative project for capturing and storing the carbon created by our energy intensive industries was rejected by the Government. We know that the project is on the reserve list, but is there any real hope that the project, which would take huge amounts of carbon out of the atmosphere, and which has the potential to drive thousands of jobs in an area where unemployment is as high as 10%, will receive financial and other support from the Government to make it a reality?
Michael Fallon
Let me be clear: this project was not rejected but placed on the reserve list. We are working with our two preferred bidders to take forward the carbon capture and storage competition. Should one of the two bidders drop out, we will of course look again at the situation.
Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)
Following on from the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer), Kellingley colliery in my constituency is a profitable, high-performing deep coal mine with 700 highly skilled employees. Will the Minister update the House on what is being done to ensure its viability?
Michael Fallon
I think my hon. Friend knows that we have been working flat out to help the company to restructure since the fire at Daw Mill. That has involved intensive work with a number of other Government bodies. I understand how frustrating it is for him and, in particular, for those who work in the colliery not to have had an announcement yet, but I am hopeful that we will see progress in the next few days.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
Further to that question, the Minister will know that UK Coal has applied for a loan from the Government that would be paid back when the insurance comes through from the Daw Mill fire. What is happening with that loan?
Michael Fallon
The position is that insurance payments are now coming through to the company, so the financial situation is not quite as the hon. Gentleman describes it. I want to assure him that the Government are doing everything they possibly can to safeguard the financial future of the two collieries, and to assist the company in necessary restructuring following the disastrous fire at Daw Mill earlier this year.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
Many village halls, such as the one in East Brent in my patch, have applied for Big Lottery awards for all funding to install PV solar panels and use feed-in tariffs as an invaluable source of income to make repayments on loans to complete their projects. It is a feature of the lottery that it is funded not by Government but by individuals, and that that grant funding is made completely independent of government, as is stated on its website and in its literature. Ofgem seems to have decided in February 2013 that lottery funding is—
Mr Speaker
Order. It is my ambition in this Parliament to educate the hon. Lady that the second sentence should usually end with a question mark. That is what we want.
Tessa Munt
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Ofgem has decided that this is state aid—[Laughter.]
Tessa Munt
It is, Sir. I must explain myself. Will the Secretary of State investigate Ofgem’s administration of the scheme and the lack of information provided to everybody involved, so that it reverses its decision to categorise lottery money as state aid?
Mr Davey
My hon. Friend is a doughty campaigner for her constituents in villages, helping them with community halls and so on. I am aware of this issue—it is not just grants from the lottery, but grants from elsewhere in government that prevent installation of micro-technology receiving feed-in tariffs under the Ofgem scheme. This matter has been raised by a number of hon. Members and I hope we are able to look at it in due course.
Mr Speaker
The Secretary of State does not have to compete with Back Benchers. There is no obligation for the answer to be as long as the question.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Earlier, the Minister mentioned that the Government’s policies would result in energy bills being about 7% lower, but is that not correct only if people go out and buy new energy-efficient TVs, washing machines, dishwashers and combi gas boilers, and that if people do not their bills will actually be higher under this Government?
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
I thank the Government for listening on wind. Communities across north Yorkshire will be delighted by this decision. The Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), is already popular in north Yorkshire, but I am sure that they would join me in wanting to give him a collective hug to thank him for this decision.
Michael Fallon
I am married to a girl from Yorkshire, but I think that a further hug would probably not be appropriate.
It is important that communities understand that they will now have more say against developments that are inappropriate and not properly justified. Too many communities have felt under siege from wholly inappropriate applications, and this measure will now bring them much-needed and long-awaited relief.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister referred to the coal industry in Scotland. I am sure he knows of the devastation in my constituency and in that of my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne). What recent discussions have taken place with the Scottish Government to address the serious environmental consequences of restoration work not going ahead?
Michael Fallon
We are in touch with the Scottish Government. I have ensured that an official from my Department attends meetings of the taskforce set up following the collapse of the Scottish company. We will learn lessons from what has happened in Scotland, and if the British Government can help, of course we will.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend explain what role he sees the energy efficiency strategy playing in reducing demand for energy?
Gregory Barker
My hon. Friend will know that earlier this year the Prime Minister launched our first-ever national energy efficiency mission. We are determined always to pursue the cheapest option, including where the cheapest option is saving energy rather than building new plant, but we will do that in a way that is good for consumers and gives us lower bills as well as cleaner energy.
Mr Speaker
Order. If we are to accommodate the several remaining colleagues, very short answers will be required.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State have another go at answering my earlier question? He said he met the energy companies last month. Let me put the question this way: when he met them, did he raise any concerns about the level of profits they were making, and, if so, what did they say?
Mr Davey
I do not think that profits were part of a specific conversation. This issue is about the whole market: how we ensure more competition and more investment and how we protect consumers from rising global prices by ensuring that they help us deal with energy efficiency.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
In order to save money and improve Government efficiency, would the excellent Secretary of State agree to close his Department and transfer its responsibilities to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills? He, then, could become the Business Secretary, freeing up the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), to concentrate on his campaign to become the next leader of the Liberal Democrats. It would be a win, win situation for everyone.
Mr Davey
You will know, Mr Speaker, that the Liberal Democrats always listen to the hon. Gentleman’s advice, because it is always meant as a helpful contribution. I can tell him, however, that my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) is a fantastic Minister of State and does a brilliant job not only in my Department, but in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, so we are already very well connected.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
The Secretary of State told me earlier that he was concerned about all Kingstons in this country. On that basis, would he agree to meet me and a delegation from Kingston upon Hull to discuss what more the coalition Government can do to support Siemens coming to Hull?
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
I welcome the Minister’s support for biomass boilers, but the renewable heat incentive was announced in October 2010. Why is it not possible to open up the domestic scheme for payment before spring 2014?
Gregory Barker
It has been much more challenging than we anticipated, not least because when we entered government we found that the previous Government had done absolutely no work on this whatsoever. This is the first renewable heat scheme of its type in the world, and heat is much more difficult to quantify and value than exporting electricity, but it is good news. We prioritised industrial heat and are now moving on to domestic heat, and I am looking forward to the scheme’s launch this spring.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
The Minister claims that the energy company obligation will help people in fuel poverty, but is it not true that nearly 60% of the funding will go to households that can already afford to pay, not to those people in fuel poverty?
Gregory Barker
It is anticipated that more than £500 million of the ECO funding will go directly to the most vulnerable and those who need it most, but the balance of the energy company obligation is intended to support roll-outs street by street. It was the specific nature of previous Government schemes under Labour that made them so bureaucratic and ineffective. Our view is that we ultimately need to focus on properties, not just the individuals who live in them.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
The co-firing of biomass at power stations such as Drax brings enormous opportunities to growers and farmers in Thirsk and Malton, but will the Minister or Secretary of State assure the House that unfair subsidies to imported wood chip are not undermining our home-grown produce?
Onshore Wind (Planning Policy)
Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Minister for Housing if he will make a statement on planning policy in relation to onshore wind.
The Minister for Housing (Mr Mark Prisk)
The coalition agreement pledged to decentralise power to local people. We are committed to giving local people far more ability to shape the places in which they live. Through a series of reforms, this coalition Government are making the planning process more accessible to local communities. Planning works best when communities themselves have the opportunity to influence the decisions that affect their lives. However, current planning decisions on onshore wind do not always reflect a locally led planning system.
Following a wide range of representations, including the letter of 30 January 2012 to the Prime Minister from 100 hon. Members, and in light of the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s call for evidence, it has become clear that action is needed to deliver the balance expected by the national planning policy framework. We need to ensure that protecting the local environment is properly considered alongside the broader issues of protecting the global environment. Today my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has published the response to his call for evidence on onshore wind and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government is publishing a written ministerial statement that will set out a number of key changes that I know the House will wish to consider. Let me set out the key elements for the benefit of the House and my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris).
First, we want to strengthen the voice of local people. The submissions to the call for evidence have highlighted the benefits of good quality pre-application discussions for onshore wind development and the improved outcomes they can have for local communities. We will amend secondary legislation to make pre-application consultation with local communities compulsory for the more significant onshore wind applications. This will ensure that community engagement takes place at an earlier stage and may assist in improving the quality of proposed onshore wind development. It will also complement the community benefits proposals announced by the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change.
Secondly, on better planning guidance, the national planning policy framework we published last year includes strong protections for the natural and historic environment. However, I know that local communities have genuine concerns that insufficient weight is being given to environmental considerations such as landscape, amenity or heritage. We need to ensure that decisions get the environmental balance right, in line with the framework, and that any adverse impact from a wind farm development is addressed satisfactorily.
We have been equally clear that this means facilitating sustainable development in suitable locations. Put simply, meeting our energy goals should not be used to justify the wrong development in the wrong location. We are looking to local councils to include in their local plans policies that ensure that adverse impacts from wind farm developments, including cumulative landscape and visual impact, are addressed satisfactorily. Where councils have identified areas suitable for onshore wind, they should not feel they have to give permission for speculative applications outside those areas when they judge the impact to be unacceptable.
To help to ensure that planning decisions reflect the balance in the framework, my Department will shortly issue new planning practice guidance to assist local councils and planning inspectors in their consideration of local plans and individual applications. Briefly, the guidance will set out, first, that the need for renewable energy does not automatically override environmental protections and the planning concerns of local communities. Secondly, decisions should take into account the cumulative impact of wind turbines and properly reflect the increasing impact on the landscape and local amenity. Thirdly, local topography should be a factor in assessing whether wind turbines have a damaging impact on the landscape. Fourthly, great care should be taken to ensure that heritage assets are conserved in a manner appropriate to their significance, including the impact of proposals on views important to their setting.
We will be writing to the Planning Inspectorate and to all councils to flag up the new guidance and its operation. This Government firmly believe that renewables have an important role to play in a balanced energy policy. However, as a localist Government, we also firmly believe that planning works best when local people are able to shape their local environment.
Chris Heaton-Harris
Thank you for granting this urgent question, Mr Speaker. I should like to draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
I thank the Minister for his reply, but it is a shame that this was not announced to the House first. Should the Department of Energy and Climate Change have been briefing the media on this announcement 24 hours before it was announced in this place, especially when its planning element comes from the Department for Communities and Local Government and is time-sensitive and commercially significant? What will be the impact of the policy change on proposed developments that are currently in the planning process, particularly those that are in the planning appeals system and whose appeal has been concluded but the result is not yet known? Will the proposed change be retrospective for schemes that have been granted planning permission against the wishes of the local communities or councils, but whose construction has not yet started?
For too long, developers have ridden roughshod over the views of local communities and local councils on inappropriately sited wind turbines. Can the Minister elaborate on how the new policy will be communicated to the Planning Inspectorate and local planning authorities, and on the timeline that will be involved?
There might have been some confusion within Government Departments about these matters, but I wholeheartedly welcome the planning changes. I really believe that this could be the beginning of the end of unwanted onshore wind farm development in England, and I welcome the Minister’s statement.
Mr Speaker
Order. This policy announcement should of course first have been made in this Chamber through an oral statement offered by the Government. Right hon. and hon. Members will appreciate that it was precisely because that offer was not made, which it should have been, that I granted the urgent question from the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris). We look forward of course to the Minister’s reply.
Mr Prisk
Thank you, Mr Speaker. The two written ministerial statements are important, but the Government will always note what you have to say on these matters. That is important in this regard.
I welcome my hon. Friend’s wholehearted support for these important changes. I know that he has been an ardent campaigner on these matters, and I very much respect that. It is important that constituency Members of Parliament should feel able to do that. He asked which proposals would be affected by the changes. I must be careful not to mention any specific named applications, but when something has been determined at local level, we clearly cannot reopen it. The changes will not be retrospective. When something is in the planning application system but no decision has been made, local planners and the planning inspectors will now have to give clear consideration—as they would in any other circumstances—to this guidance. That will give comfort not only to Members of the House but to many of the constituents they represent.
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
I am grateful to you for your ruling, Mr Speaker. Once again we have had to learn the details of a Government policy from the press rather than from a statement to the House.
We know that planning approvals for wind farms in England have fallen from about 70% of applications in 2008 to 35% in 2012, which raises the question of why this guidance is being introduced now. We accept that there are clearly locations in which it is inappropriate to put wind turbines, and we welcome the greater incentives that will be provided to local communities that accept wind farm developments. Pre-application discussions with communities are clearly a good thing, and should be happening in any case, but can the Minister tell us what the threshold will be for the more significant applications that will trigger compulsory consultation, and do the Government intend to make the same changes for fracking planning applications?
It has been reported that local communities will, in effect, be given a veto over new wind farm planning applications. A senior Conservative source is quoted in the newspapers as saying:
“This is a bomb proof set of safeguards”.
That is not, however, what it says in the written ministerial statement, and neither did the Minister say that in his reply. Can he therefore tell us what will in fact be the case? Will there be a veto: yes or no? If so, how exactly will this power of veto operate?
Reference has also been made to significant local opposition. How will this be assessed and who will decide whether it is significant? Will local authorities still finally determine the planning applications? What will be the position in local communities where a local plan has not yet been drawn up or approved by the Planning Inspectorate? Do the Government have any plans to change the process for deciding on planning applications for wind farms generating more than 50 MW?
As we know, onshore wind is the cheapest form of renewable energy, so what assessment have the Government made of the likely impact of these changes on our carbon budgets and on the cost of electricity for consumers in general?
Mr Prisk
The hon. Lady raised a number of points, and she will forgive me if I say that the details on carbon emissions are not within the bounds of the planning decision, which is what this urgent question is about.
Let me deal with two particular issues that the hon. Lady raised. She rightly raised the question of what a “more significant” development is. This will depend on a number of issues. As hon. Members may understand, it may be about the scale and number of turbines, but it could also be about the height, size and massing of them. Clearly, we do not want to ensnare someone who is thinking of having a small turbine in the back garden. That is not the purpose of the approach; this will be set out clearly in the secondary legislation.
The hon. Lady then raised a broader point about retrospectivity. She did so quite imaginatively, I thought, in a number of different ways. Perhaps I can reiterate the point. Where a determination has been made, there will not be a retrospective change, but where an application is in the system, we expect the local planning officers and, if the case is in appeal, the inspectors themselves to give clear and careful consideration to the issue, in the knowledge that it has the potential to be a “material consideration”, which she will obviously understand has a legal implication as well.
The purpose behind this approach is very clear, but I am not sure that the hon. Lady was. We believe in making sure that local communities have a clear voice, and we want the balance between the global environmental issues and the local environmental issues to be made clear. The policy has been clear; sadly, as many hon. Members have found, it has not been applied appropriately on the ground. We intend to make sure that planning inspectors and the planners themselves on the ground are able to do so.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
In congratulating my hon. Friend on this statement, may I ask whether he will extend the principles he has enunciated to offshore wind farms, where exactly the same principles apply, particularly in the case of the much-despised proposal for an offshore wind farm in Christchurch bay?
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
May I return to a point the Minister did not answer a minute ago? Will he confirm that this change does not give a veto to local authorities and local communities over all wind farm applications? Will he confirm that what he has done is to put into the guidance matters to which the local authorities will now have to have regard in considering applications? These are in fact matters to which local authorities currently can have regard, and to which the best local authorities will already have regard.
Mr Prisk
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, which is that the policy has not changed. The frustration that many Members have experienced is about the way in which it has been applied at a local level. He is right to say that we are now making sure that these matters are dealt with in the appropriate fashion at the local level. These will now be material considerations, which is an important aspect. The policy has been clear. The sad part, as many hon. Members on both sides of the House have said, is that the application has been inconsistent. That problem will now be solved.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Is the Minister aware that the beautiful county of Northumberland has a large number of wind farm applications, and that there will be a welcome for this coalition Government’s recognition that visual and cumulative impact should be more effectively recognised in the system and that communities where appropriately sited wind farms are built should get a greater benefit from that?
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister has not made it clear whether this will apply in Wales and England. Irrespective of that, will he confirm that it will mean more wind farms in urban areas and fewer in rural areas, and that more electricity will therefore be generated in Labour constituencies for Conservative constituencies, with the Liberals blowing in the wind, as normal?
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
The borough of Kettering is enthusiastic about its successful and expanding wind farm at Burton Wold, but we do not want wind turbines all over the countryside. Can the Minister assure my constituents that they can use the very good example of that wind farm to protect against the spread of wind turbines everywhere else?
Mr Prisk
That is the thing that people feel; the cumulative issue is often the concern that local communities have. That is why this guidance will strengthen the arm to make sure that it is a genuine material consideration. People will now feel that they are to contribute to the planning process, and that is good for the process itself.
Mr Prisk
There seems to be a lack of understanding among Labour Members. This is not about vetoes; it is about making sure, in a legal system, that we have appropriate and due consideration of the material issues—topography, amenity and heritage. On this idea that we have a blanket veto here at the Dispatch Box, I know that that is how they liked to do it in the Labour party in the past, but we let local people decide.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
While I warmly welcome my hon. Friend’s statement, as I am sure most of my colleagues do, may I just point out to him that it contains no reference to general aviation and the Ministry of Defence, both of which have enormous concerns about the impact of wind farms? May I give just one example? As one of the few currently licensed aviators in this House, I was flying on Monday past Popham, in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young), where there is a huge concern about 22 wind turbines, each the height of the London Eye, and the massive impact they can have on general aviation. May I ask the Minister to take into account those concerns, which are certainly shared by my hon. Friends the Members for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) and for Winchester (Steve Brine)?
Mr Prisk
My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and we do need to consider that issue, although of course what he is referring to is strictly outside the nature of this statement. Perhaps I, or indeed the Secretary of State, might like to take a flight with him to see this directly.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I realise that the announcement on the planning changes refers to England, but given that the Government appear to have had time to brief the media, did they also have time to discuss any of this with the Scottish Government, as there will be concerns that it will perhaps be tougher to obtain planning permission in England and that that will have knock-on consequences in Scotland?
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
I have tried to push the Minister on this important issue, but will he just clarify whether the current applications at judicial review are included in the change in guidance?
Mr Prisk
The key point is that if a determination has been made, that cannot be undone, whether that is at the local level or at the planning level, and that, I think, incorporates any other aspect where there is a decision about this. Once a decision has been published, that clearly cannot be changed by this guidance.
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)
E.ON wants to build a wind farm consisting of 25 wind turbines in the middle of my constituency, generating 64 MW of electricity, which is therefore over the 50 MW threshold. The final decision will be made by the Secretary of State. Does this announcement today mean that if the local planning authority is opposed and the local community is opposed, the Secretary of State will say no to it?
Mr Prisk
It is cute of the hon. Gentleman to try to tempt me into that area. He knows that these are quasi-legal decisions, and I am not going to comment on any individual application. What we have done today is make sure that the balance in discussions is correct at the local level and at the appeal level, so that there is an appropriate level of decision making. I am not going to be drawn into individual applications, as he will understand.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
I welcome what the Minister has said—as, I am sure, will many of my constituents, particularly those in Denholme who have been battling against a wholly inappropriate proposal for a wind farm—but can he tell us what safeguards will be provided for local residents? My constituents have become accustomed to Labour-run Bradford council’s practice of sending its councillors over to parts of the constituency, riding roughshod over the wishes of local councillors and residents, and imposing unpopular decisions on them. What safeguards will be introduced to stop Labour councils such as Bradford imposing decisions on my constituents, contrary to the recommendations of the guidance?
Mr Prisk
Our key purpose in making these changes is to ensure that the voice of local people is stronger. My hon. Friend is evidently experiencing a difficulty with the local Labour council, which I must say does sound shocking, but I am sure that, in his usual terrier-like manner, he will ensure that it understands what it is doing wrong.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
Whether we are talking about a change of policy or a change of guidance, will the Minister tell us what prior consultation he has had with local planning authorities?
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
I welcome my hon. Friend’s statement. In my constituency, the council’s draft local plan proposes the development of 40 new wind farm sites on green belt land. What message would my hon. Friend send to a council which is intending to impose those sites, in environmentally sensitive areas, on local communities that are deeply opposed to them?
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that today’s announcement is a further demonstration of the Government’s commitment to the principles of localism in planning, which—starting with neighbourhood plans—ensure that local communities have a greater say both when supporting and when opposing development in their areas?
Mr Prisk
The Secretary of State and I are strongly committed to ensuring that local voices are heard in the planning system. This is a legal process, and we need to ensure that it is conducted appropriately, but as my hon. Friend says, we are a localist Government with clear localist principles.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
There is an increasing perception among many people who have opposed wind turbine applications in my beautiful part of Yorkshire that local wishes have been overruled in favour of energy suppliers and landowners who have been pocketing the subsidies. Does the Minister agree that if such applications are to be approved, they must have the support of those local communities and they must benefit those local communities?
Mr Prisk
I know that my hon. Friend is an ardent campaigner on this issue, and his constituents are fortunate in that regard. He is right: we must ensure that local voices are very clear so that proper, balanced decisions are made, and people are not made to feel that their own considerations have been ridden over roughshod.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
I agree with my hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) that there is a logic to extending community powers relating to onshore to offshore wind farms. As the Minister knows, there is a plan to build a rather large wind farm off our constituencies, and its proximity to the coast is concerning residents.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) on his urgent question, and also on his consistent and informed leadership on this subject from the Back Benches. I welcome the announcement of a change in the planning rules relating to wind farms, but may I suggest that if one wants to look green one builds wind farms, whereas if one wants to be green, one should build them only where they will be effective and acceptable to local communities?
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
There will be joy in North Yorkshire at this decision, which will be good for the environment and good for the countryside, but may I tempt my hon. Friend to specify the more significant onshore wind farm developments, and explain how that term will be interpreted?
Mr Prisk
I am delighted to be tempted by my hon. Friend, and as I said earlier, what is more significant is trying to make sure we do not unintentionally snare the small single turbine in someone’s back garden. This is about making sure we have consideration about the massing, the size and, indeed, the height, and we will set that out clearly in the secondary legislation.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
I find myself much in accord with the Minister’s expressions of support for balance, as that is absolutely right, but I have some concerns that the pendulum might swing too far the other way. Will he be carefully monitoring things as the new guidance is implemented?
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
In joining colleagues in welcoming the announcement, may I pay tribute to the work of the Minister without Portfolio, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) on this issue?
May I push the Minister to be clear that where an appeal has concluded taking evidence but the inspector has not published their decision, today’s announcement will be taken into account, because that will give great comfort to my constituents, particularly those in Tydd St Giles, who are awaiting a decision on 17 July?
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
My constituents in Bury North will warmly welcome this statement. Many of them can already see a massive wind farm development over at Scout Moor, but it is very often the individual turbines going here, there and everywhere across my constituency that create a great deal of concern. Can the Minister confirm that these guidelines will apply to individual turbine applications, as well as those for large farms, which may already be affecting the landscape?
Mr Prisk
As I said earlier, we are trying to make sure that the principal concern people have about the impact, and particularly the cumulative impact, is properly and clearly set out in the guidance. That will make sure that decisions on the kinds of application to which my hon. Friend refers will be influenced in the same way.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) on leading the campaign against wind farms in this House, and I have a sneaking feeling that I can detect the hand of the Minister without Portfolio, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) in this new revised policy.
Until now, planning applications were refused for wind farms, but on appeal were granted. Under this new guidance, as I understand it, if local councils act properly and say no to a wind farm, normally they will not be overturned on appeal. Am I right in thinking that?
Mr Prisk
My hon. Friend is right to highlight that there have been a number of contributions in this particular debate. What I would say to him is that we want to make sure the system is balanced. What most constituents have been concerned about—I am, perhaps, speaking now as a constituency MP—is that they feel their views are ridden roughshod over. That is what my hon. Friend referred to, and that is what we are seeking to correct.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
I note the Minister’s emphasis on significant and cumulative impact. Does he agree that minimum separation distances, as espoused by Wiltshire council, are arbitrary and therefore totally incapable of taking that into account?
Mr Prisk
We are not promoting buffer zones, as I think they are known in that context. We are a localist Government, and we want to make sure that the councils, which are accountable to their local electorates, take the appropriate decisions. The fact that we have specifically highlighted the issue of cumulative impact can, I think, give my hon. Friend some reassurance.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
In addition to the turbines we already have, sometimes turning, in my constituency, we have 70 further ones consented, the largest development being for 34 turbines on the Isle of Axholme, which was granted by the previous Government on appeal, against the wishes of local people. Just yesterday another wind farm application was rejected, and a couple of weeks ago I spoke at an appeal against yet another wind farm application. Therefore, while I welcome the announcement, as will my constituents, may I urge the Minister to do a full and thorough review of how the appeal system works, because it is often at that point that my constituents are let down, not by their democratically elected councillors?
Mr Prisk
I understand that point, and the Secretary of State, the planning Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), and I are all very much aware of the need to make sure planning at the local level and at appeals runs appropriately, and we will always give consideration to representations.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
I welcome the statement, which will also be welcomed by the constituents of Harrogate and Knaresborough, where there have been significant concerns about developments of a proposed wind farm along the Knabs ridge area. Does the Minister agree that the measures announced will help to address the confusion and anger about the fact that local landscapes and local environments can be damaged in the name of protecting our environment?
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
This is wonderful news and the result of a long campaign. I welcome the announcement, because in Northumberland we have sporadic applications and sporadic wind farms that have no impact other than destroying the landscape in a very bad way. Cumulative impact is a massive issue, but how will it go into a local development plan when a local authority has not completed a local development plan thus far?
Mr Prisk
As I said in my opening remarks, we want to ensure that the guidance, as part of the balancing of the new planning policy framework, shows a clear understanding of the issue, especially the cumulative impact, and that that is reflected in the policies in the local plan.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
I congratulate the Minister on today’s statement and associate myself with those who have congratulated my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) on the leadership he has shown on this issue.
I would like some clarity if possible from the Minister about the position as it affects Wales. Applications for large wind farms over 50 MW are not devolved to the Welsh Government. It seems logical that the new provisions should apply to those applications, so can he reassure me that that is the case?
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that today is a victory for the Conservative party, which has finally brought some sanity and good sense to a very dubious energy policy?
Mr Prisk
The sad part about this has been that the Labour party seems not to have any understanding of why local voices matter. Members of this House have raised local issues time and again, and I agree with my hon. Friend; this is about localism and giving power back to local people, and we will ensure that that happens.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
The Minister’s announcement will be widely welcomed by my constituents, particularly those in Humberston who are fighting an application in the neighbouring constituency. With particular reference to pre-application consultation, and because of the widespread impact such turbines have, can he assure me that a consultation area will cover neighbouring council areas so that everyone can be involved?
Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)
People in my part of North Yorkshire will be thrilled with the announcement this morning. May I add my gratitude to the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) and the Minister without Portfolio, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), for championing these changes? Will the Minister assure the House that local councils will be given the correct level of support to implement the changes? They often come up against very clever and expensive lawyers from development companies and need far better support.
Mr Prisk
We will write to all local planning authorities and to Sir Michael Pitt at the Planning Inspectorate. I take my hon. Friend’s point and I know that the issue is foremost in the mind of the Secretary of State. May I add my strong congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris)? We have listened and we have improved the guidance for the better.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
The Minister mentioned specifically that meeting our energy goals should not mean overriding natural environment considerations. Will he confirm that he will include in his amendment to the legislation the higher planning authorities that will make judgments about equally ugly pylons and the need to underground electricity transmission lines across the beautiful Somerset levels?
Mr Prisk
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that question. Today, clearly, we are considering the question of onshore wind turbines, so I think it would be wiser if I did not draw myself into the even more vexed question of pylons. I know that the Secretary of State and I will consider her question should it have any due implications.
Business of the House
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House give us the business for next week?
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)
The business for next week is as follows:
Monday 10 June—Second Reading of the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill.
Tuesday 11 June—Remaining stages of the Children and Families Bill, followed by a motion to approve a European document relating to section 10 of the European Union Act 2011.
Wednesday 12 June—Opposition day [2nd allotted day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject to be announced.
Thursday 13 June—Debate on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq war. The subject for this debate was nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.
Colleagues will wish to be reminded that the Prime Minister of Canada will address both Houses of Parliament on this day.
The provisional business for the week commencing 17 June will include:
Monday 17 June—Second Reading of the Pensions Bill.
Tuesday 18 June—Motion to approve a European document relating to the reform of the common agricultural policy, followed by a motion to approve a European document relating to enhanced co-operation and a financial transaction tax, followed by a motion to approve a European document relating to the European elections 2014.
Wednesday 19 June—Opposition day [3rd allotted day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject to be announced.
Thursday 20 June—Business to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.
I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 13 June will be:
Thursday 13 June—Debate on the seventh report of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Select Committee on dog control and welfare.
Ms Eagle
This week marks the 100th anniversary of the death of suffragette Emily Wilding Davison, who threw herself at the King’s horse demanding votes for women. As the battle for women’s suffrage raged, she was at its forefront, being imprisoned on multiple occasions and force fed 49 times. She has a connection with this place because she hid in St Mary’s Undercroft so that she could register as a resident here for the 1911 census. She is also known for throwing things at Chancellor Lloyd George.
Since women won the vote, just 35 have entered the Cabinet and today we make up only 23% of the House of Commons. Does the Leader of the House agree with me that, on this centenary, we should have a debate in Government time on women’s progress in the UK? Under this Government, women’s rights are going backwards: as carers, service users and public sector workers, women are bearing the brunt of Government cuts and women’s unemployment is the highest it has been for a generation. No wonder the Government forgot to do a gender impact assessment of their first Budget. I suggest that if Emily Wilding Davison were alive today, she would still find reasons to throw rocks at the Chancellor.
I wonder whether the Leader of the House recalls last October’s Back-Bench business debate on the badger cull. The vote at the end of that debate instructed the Government not to proceed with the cull, but the Government just ignored it and started anyway. The Government have lost Back-Bench votes on circus animals, badgers and the Royal Fusiliers, and since starting to lose votes on Back-Bench motions so frequently, they have simply stopped opposing them. Today, we have a motion on the effects of pesticides on the bee population. Will the Leader of the House let us know whether the Government intend simply to let the motion pass without a vote, and if they do, will the will of the House be ignored again?
The Commons is abuzz with speculation about the end of the greatest No. 10 love affair of all time. Their eyes met at a press conference in the garden and they accepted each other with open arms, but the Prime Minister was unfaithful with his Back-Bench EU deal and now the Deputy Prime Minister has gone to the papers over his child care demands. They have been kidding themselves for a while, but the Queen’s Speech showed us that they did not even have the energy to try any more. Their mouse of a legislative programme has already unravelled, with No. 10 at panic stations over another lobbying scandal, the EU Back-Bench Bill, and the third U-turn of the Session in the abandonment of the appalling plan to increase ratios for child care providers. It is hard to believe that the House has sat for only 11 days since the Queen’s Speech was unveiled.
It is the job of the Leader of the House to co-ordinate the Government’s legislative programme. I know he likes expensive top-down reorganisations, but this is ridiculous. To be fair to him, though, it is not as if his Cabinet colleagues are faring any better. The Education Secretary has been so busy positioning himself to be the next Tory leader that he has forgotten to do the day job. According to a damning report from the Procedure Committee, his Department is very late in answering half of all written questions tabled by Members, and answers only one in five written named day questions in time. During the recess the chairman of the Tory party was told off by the UK Statistics Authority for making things up. He joins a long list of his Cabinet colleagues languishing on the statistical naughty step, including the Prime Minister, the Health Secretary and the Work and Pensions Secretary. So may we have a debate about sanctions that could be applied to Ministers who do not answer questions in a timely fashion or get censured for misusing statistics?
Perhaps we should also have a debate about performance-managing the Cabinet. Such a debate could start with a look at the NHS. Since 2010 the number of people waiting in A and E for more than four hours has doubled. The ambulance queues have doubled, but instead of taking responsibility, the Government have tried to blame immigrants, women doctors and a 10-year-old GP contract for a problem that has only just emerged. Of course, they are only following the Chancellor’s lead after he blamed the flatlining economy on the snow, the rain and various bank holidays, including the royal wedding and the jubilee. This Government have been in office for three years. When will they face up to their responsibilities and realise that they have only themselves to blame?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House, not least for the opportunity to mark in the House the centenary, as she rightly said, of the death of Emily Wilding Davison who, on 4 June 1913 I think it was, threw herself in front of the—was it the King or the Prince of Wales?—the King’s horse at the Epsom derby. I understand that there was an extremely successful event in Westminster Hall yesterday to mark that; it is important for us to do so.
Many would share the view that we have come on a very long way in a century, but not as far as we would like to have done, not least in ensuring that we realise to the full the potential that women are able to bring into our political life. In my party we feel strongly that we did very well at the last election in doing so, and we have further to go and I am looking forward to—
Mr Lansley
Busy, I would imagine. The experience in this Parliament of increased numbers of women in the parliamentary Conservative party will have encouraged Conservative associations across the country in their selections for the future.
The hon. Lady mentioned child care. She will be aware that no announcements have been made. We are committed to securing improving quality and affordability for parents seeking child care and we will make announcements in due course.
The hon. Lady made a point about Back-Bench debates. She said that Back-Bench votes instructed the Government. She completely understands, I know, that they are very important opportunities for Back-Bench and House opinion to be expressed. The Government never ignore them, and particularly in relation to the debate on the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, Ministers took that decision seriously, weighed it carefully and came back to the House on a further occasion in order to explain why they maintained the decision that they had made.
Yesterday, Ministers came back to the House at the instigation of the Opposition in order to explain fully why the pilot badger cull was going ahead, and in a vote yesterday the House endorsed the Government’s view on that. In the course of her questions, including requests for debates, the shadow Leader of the House did not tell us what the Opposition are planning to do with their time.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
It is called a Business Question.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
The Leader of the House has to answer it.
Mr Lansley
I know it is a question, but in the course of her questions the shadow Leader of the House might have indicated to the House what the subjects for the Opposition day debates next week might be, not least as she seems to have an idea of the issues that she regards as important. She might think, for example, that 19 June would be a good opportunity to debate tax evasion and tax avoidance in the wake of the initiative, which is, I think, unprecedented in scale and success, that the Prime Minister has led in securing international co-operation, not least through the G8 summit that will have taken place over the previous weekend. No doubt by that date there will have been an opportunity for the Labour party to have paid to the Revenue any tax that would have been due on any donations that might have been given to it.
In the light of the speeches that have been made this week, the hon. Lady might also try to have a debate about the credibility of Opposition policy. On Monday, the shadow Chancellor was in complete denial about the simple fact that he talked with the former Chancellor of the Exchequer and Prime Minister about “iron discipline” just ahead of the biggest spending spree by a Government that this country has ever seen, which left us in the biggest debt that this country has ever encountered. That is no iron discipline; there is no credibility in that.
If the Opposition are going to make speeches about welfare reform, they have to answer some simple questions. To give just one example, do Labour Members now believe that they were wrong to oppose the Bill that became the Welfare Reform Act 2012, with its cap on welfare uprating for working-age benefit recipients? If the shadow Leader of the House is able to say that they were wrong about that, there might be some credibility; otherwise it was a completely empty policy.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Today I will be delivering a letter to the Prime Minister signed by 81 Conservative colleagues calling for a parliamentary debate and a vote before the Government make any decision to arm any factions in the Syrian conflict. There is considerable concern in this House and, indeed, the country about our being pulled further into another middle eastern conflict where there appear to be many sides but no end. Can my right hon. Friend confirm that if such a decision to arm any of the groups is considered during a recess, Parliament can be quickly recalled so that we can debate this very important issue?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I have had the opportunity to see early-day motion 189, which relates to this.
[That this House believes that prior to any decision being taken to supply arms to the Syrian National Coalition or any other groups in Syria, a full debate and vote should be held in Parliament and in addition to this, if Parliament is in recess, it should be recalled to facilitate this important debate; notes the division and sensitivity that this issue evokes both with colleagues and the general public; believes that it is a matter that needs to be subjected to full parliamentary scrutiny and debate before the UK potentially becomes further involved in another Middle Eastern conflict; and further notes that in some matters of defence, time does not always allow for parliamentary debate, whilst not however believing this constraint applies to this potential course of action.]
My hon. Friend will recall what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, when he was absolutely clear—in the same way that he was careful to ensure that on 21 March 2011 the House had an opportunity to debate Libya on a substantive motion—that any decision relating specifically to the arming of the Syrian National Coalition or others in Syria would be the subject of debate and an opportunity for a vote in this House.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
In evidence to the Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday, Cressida Dick, the head of counter-terrorism at the Metropolitan police, told the Committee that, on one hand they were proposing to assess protection for Anjem Choudary, but on the other they were considering prosecuting him for racist and inflammatory statements. He is a former member of a number of proscribed organisations. May we have a statement on any guidance that the Home Secretary has issued about the protection of people who go out of their way to inflame tensions?
Mr Lansley
The right hon. Gentleman will of course understand that I am not in a position to make any comment about any individual case. I am sure that the Home Secretary—as the right hon. Gentleman knows, she has done this before and will do so again—will keep the House fully updated about any actions she is taking relating to tackling violent extremism and tackling those who seek to propagate views promoting violent extremism and terrorism in this country.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
In the light of recent speculation that the London-based Science Museum Group could axe three regional museums, including Manchester’s Museum of Science and Industry, to protect the London Science Museum, may we have a debate on the future of funding for museums and the need to protect our regional cultural assets?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am sure that many Members will share with him a sense of the importance of the Science Museum Group, including, in particular, the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester. The group receives over 5 million visitors a year, so it is very important. It received a real-terms reduction in its overall funding in the previous funding review and, obviously, I am not in a position to talk about any future spending review. The distribution of funding within the Science Museum Group is an operational matter for the group itself, but I will bring the point raised by my hon. Friend to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
May I seek absolute clarity on what the Leader of the House kindly said about a debate on arming the Syrian rebels? Are the Government committed to having a substantive debate and vote before any decision is made on whether to arm the Syrian rebels, even if Parliament is in recess at the time? Will we get that debate before any policy is implemented?
Mr Lansley
Let me be clear: as the Prime Minister made perfectly clear yesterday, that question has not yet arisen because no such decision has been made. The Prime Minister was clear, as he was in relation to Libya, that he will seek to secure an opportunity for the House to debate and express its view through a vote on these matters. It is, of course, a hypothetical question at present. The Prime Minister is determined, as is the Foreign Secretary, that the House should have the opportunity, as was the case with Libya, to express its view.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
The Deputy Prime Minister has been trailing his lobbying Bill all over the press yet again, and this time his ideas seem to be staggeringly incoherent even by his standards. It is three years since the Prime Minister’s original remarks. When will the Deputy Prime Minister make a statement to the House or even present a Bill? After all, it is many months since the consultation exercise closed.
Mr Lansley
The coalition agreement is very clear that we will introduce legislation. The Prime Minister said in response to a question yesterday that we will legislate to tackle the issue of third-party influence in our political system. We are looking to introduce proposals before the summer recess.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
Could we have a debate on the practices of companies such as Phyderma and Elisa Jewels, which actively seek to scam British pensioners by enticing them to purchase catalogue items with the promise that they will win prizes such as new cars and luxury holidays? I recently met a distraught constituent whose father has spent more than £5,000 to date on these false promises.
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Members will sympathise with him and his constituents about these matters, which come up for many of us. Misleading or false promotional or other advertising material is covered by the advertising code of practice, which is policed by the Advertising Standards Authority, with which my hon. Friend may wish to raise these matters. Failure to comply with ASA rulings can also result in referral to the Office of Fair Trading, so that is a further avenue for him to take if he is not initially successful.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
May we have a debate on something that affects a large number of Members of all parties, namely the rules used by the NHS to consult on hospital closures? In my own area the “Better Services, Better Value” scheme proposes to close the A and E and maternity units at St Helier hospital after a 12-week consultation over the school summer holidays at a time when it is difficult to find venues and get people to volunteer to assist in gathering the information in order to discuss the schemes. Could that debate also include a discussion about the rules on giving notice about venues and dates for important meetings where members of the public might wish to see the NHS making decisions on its future?
Mr Lansley
My colleagues from the Health Department will be here to answer questions on Tuesday, if the hon. Lady would like to raise the issue of the NHS’s internal guidance on the conduct of consultations, which should also, of course, reflect the guidance issued by the Cabinet Office. The hon. Lady will be aware, as I hope all Members are, that if the overview and scrutiny committees of local authorities are not satisfied with the procedure, evidence or outcome of consultations, they can refer them to the Secretary of State, who in my experience is able to take advice from the Independent Reconfiguration Panel.
Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend provide time to debate the valuable heritage of our rivers and canals, and the volunteers who work on them? As one of the few MPs whose constituency is named after a river, I understand well the importance of waterways. [Interruption.] We can now begin the list, Mr Speaker. It is worth noting that this is national volunteers week. Such a debate could highlight the campaign for new volunteers to help the Canal & River Trust in Erewash, which has the Erewash rangers scheme, and elsewhere up and down the river and canal network.
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend raises two valuable aspects of life in her constituency. Her views about our canals and rivers, and about volunteering, are shared in many constituencies. I would love to be able to stand at the Dispatch Box and dispense debates on such issues, but I direct my hon. Friend and other colleagues to the Backbench Business Committee, which is very receptive to applications for such debates.
Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)
May we have a debate on how employers can help employees who are suffering from work-related mental health issues? Last year on St Stephen’s day, 26 December, one of my constituents, Filep Myzylowskyj, tragically took his own life. He was employed by National Express as a bus driver and had been on sick leave following an accident involving a pedestrian. His widow, Janet, his family and his friends agree unanimously that his suicide was work-related. I have written to Dean Finch, the chief executive of National Express, seven times. It appears that he simply refuses to respond to my correspondence. Such a debate would help us to determine how employers can help employees and how they should communicate with Members of this House.
Mr Lansley
Members will sympathise with the hon. Gentleman’s constituent and he is right to raise the case. I hope that the fact that he has done so will encourage some employers, including National Express, to take note of the points that he makes. Many employers are taking up the opportunity under the responsibility deal to improve the occupational health support for their employees. Through the national health service, we are continuing to expand access to psychological therapies. In my experience, such therapies are particularly valuable for employees who are suffering from work-related stress, anxiety and depression. Early access to those therapies can help to avoid the kind of tragedies to which he refers.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
I look forward to welcoming the Pendle rainbow parliament tomorrow morning for a question and answer session following its parliamentary tour. It is made up of hard-working school children from Nelson St Philip’s Church of England primary school, Walverden primary school, Higham St John’s Church of England primary school, Holy Saviour Roman Catholic primary school and Castercliff community primary school in my constituency. May we have a debate on what we can do to make it easier for teachers to take pupils on educational trips so that more Pendle school children can visit Parliament and other educational places?
Mr Lansley
I am glad that my hon. Friend raises that matter. I am sure that the House will be delighted to host the Pendle rainbow group. In the last year for which figures are available, 2012-13, some 47,000 young people made educational visits to this place. That is some 10,000 more than in 2010-11. I know that you have attached particular importance to this matter, Mr Speaker, and that increase is testimony to the priority that you have given it. I know that you want us to go further and do better. Ultimately, I hope that schools across the country will feel confident that all young people will come here at some point in their educational life to learn about democratic processes and the history of Westminster.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
Can we have a debate on how sensible is the Government’s new requirement for a member of the armed forces to get their chain of command to confirm they are deployed on operations, in order for service personnel to secure an exemption from the bedroom tax? Is that efficient and practical when people are deployed to Afghanistan or at sea? May we have a statement on how many members of the armed forces are still awaiting that confirmation, and how many households are now in rent arrears?
Mr Lansley
I confess I do not know the difficulties to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but I will, of course, raise the point with my hon. Friends at the Ministry of Defence and ensure that he secures a reply.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
In 2020, Britain will commemorate and celebrate the 400th anniversary of the pilgrim fathers leaving Plymouth on the Mayflower to go and found the American colonies. Unfortunately, a number of other cities and towns are trying to claim that they should be the centre of celebrating this main historic event. Please may we have a debate on Britain’s relationship with the USA, so that everybody can be aware that Plymouth is the unrivalled home of the start of the special relationship, and a potential prime contender for hosting the G8 in 2020 when it comes to Britain?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend takes a fantastic opportunity to promote Plymouth’s ambitions in that regard. Being from East Anglia, it is not for me to judge these matters, but having been in Massachusetts and gone to Plimoth Plantation, it seems obvious where those who named it that way thought they had come from.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Mr Speaker, you know that I am not a puritan or killjoy, but like most Members of Parliament I think that the betting and gambling industry is out of control in this country. Fixed-odds betting terminals and bookies are proliferating in every deprived part of our country, and online gambling is destroying lives. Is it not about time that the House tackled the scourge of betting shops, which often sit next to payday loan shops? They are preying on the poorest people in our country, and it is about time that the House was aware of it and acted to regulate this industry which is out of control.
Mr Lansley
I do not have to agree with the hon. Gentleman to say, just from a business point of view, that he will note that the Government have published the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill. I have not yet been able to tell the House the date of its Second Reading, but when that time comes the hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to make his points.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
Recently, the British Chambers of Commerce again called for extra support for British exports from the Government. We have not had a debate about exports on the Floor of the House since 2010, yet UK Trade & Investment receives more than £400 million of British taxpayers’ money to help British companies export overseas. I have spent the last 10 months interviewing hundreds of SMEs to get their first-hand experience of UKTI. May we please have a debate on the Floor of the House to scrutinise how the money is spent and consider what more needs to be done to ensure that British companies get the support they rightly deserve to start exporting all over the world?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend is an active, energetic advocate for promoting British exports, and I know the work he does. When I was at the British Chambers of Commerce we set up the export advisory service and took on delivery of the export marketing research scheme back in the late 1980s, so I completely understand where the British Chambers of Commerce is coming from. I will, of course, discuss with my hon. Friends what opportunities there may be, and the Chancellor set out in the autumn statement his ambition to support the UKTI in whatever it can achieve to maximise our impact in terms of exports. Whenever we have an opportunity for a debate on economic issues, it is important that we bring forward export and trade promotion as one of the central measures to promote growth.
Mr Speaker
Order. More than 20 Back-Bench Members are seeking to catch my eye and I am keen to accommodate them. I remind the House that there is a statement by the Foreign Secretary to follow, and then a number of debates under the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee to which I must give proper consideration. There is, therefore, a premium on brevity from those on the Back and Front Benches alike.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
The Leader of the House may be aware that the pre-inquest hearings into the deaths of 96 people in the Hillsborough disaster are taking place. Given that press reports of yesterday’s hearing said that lawyers representing the match day commanders accused the Hillsborough Independent Panel of having a so-called “agenda” guided by the families of those who died, and that questions were raised on whether the Home Office put a block on providing sufficient resources for the inquiry, does he believe it could be helpful to have a debate or statement on the matter?
Mr Lansley
I am not sure whether I can endorse the hon. Lady’s request for a statement at this stage, not least because I am not sure whether my ministerial colleagues would wish to come to the Dispatch Box and intervene or express a running commentary on inquest proceedings. She will know that I was able to announce at previous business questions Government support for the families’ legal costs for that inquiry, but in order to be sure I will bring her point to the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary so that they are aware of it.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Has my right hon. Friend seen the case of Geoffrey Bettley, a teacher at St Mary’s in Menston, on the border of my constituency, who downloaded child porn images and was rightly sacked by the school and put on the sex offenders register? In a decision ratified by the Education Secretary, Geoffrey Bettley has been told that he is allowed to teach again. I am sure my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will appreciate that many parents will be deeply disturbed by the fact that somebody who has been convicted of downloading child porn should be allowed to teach again. Can we have a statement from the Education Secretary so he can explain what on earth he was thinking when he allowed that person to teach again?
Mr Lansley
I have read press reports on the matter. The decision was taken by the National College for Teaching and Leadership and then endorsed by a senior official at the Department for Education. I will be in touch with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education so that he might give my hon. Friend an account of the process in the case.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
In responding to a question yesterday from my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) on the latest lobbying scandal, the Prime Minister made a strange comparison with the open and transparent donations by trade unions to the Labour party. He also said that he would clear up over-influence in the House. Will the Leader of the House clarify what the Prime Minister meant by “third parties” other than trade unions?
Mr Lansley
What the Prime Minister said was very clear, and it was not just about the question of the statutory register of lobbyists, which should ensure transparency and greater accountability in relation to third-party influence with Ministers and in Parliament. We must be sure that the whole political system has not only a transparent structure, but one that is accountable and open about those who seek to exercise such major third-party influence. Not just trade unions but other organisations seek to do so; the trade unions are a major source of third-party influence in the political system, as the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
Will the Leader of the House allow time for a debate on the processes in place to follow up the implementation of recommendations made in serious case reviews, and to review and report in public in the long term on the adherence to points made in action plans after incidents in care homes, so that changes to poor practice are made for the long term, and that care of the vulnerable and elderly does not slip backwards?
Mr Lansley
Yes, to reiterate a point I made earlier, my hon. Friends from the Department of Health will answer questions in the House on Tuesday next, when the hon. Lady might wish to raise that issue with them. The Minister of State, Department of Health, who has responsibility for care services, recently set out further details on how, for example, the Winterbourne View cases are being followed up by the group to ensure that the residents are being well looked after. That example illustrates how important it is that people are not lost in the system, and that serious case reviews are followed up.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
Given yesterday’s announcement from the Deputy Prime Minister that the Government’s plans to cram more toddlers into nurseries have been dropped, may we have a statement on child care policy? It is welcome that Labour Members’ campaigning and that of tens of thousands of parents and child care professionals has forced the Government to drop their plans, but it is shocking that we have not had a statement today. If the Leader of the House will not arrange a statement, will he at least tell us the current policy? The Deputy Prime Minister said yesterday that the plan had been dropped, but the Leader of the House has told us this morning that it is being reviewed. What is the policy? It is a shambles.
Mr Lansley
Our policy is to ensure an increase in the quality of child care and to improve affordability for parents: that is what we are setting out to do and that is what we will do. As soon as the policy is agreed, there will no doubt be an opportunity for it to be announced in the House.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
As was highlighted on Tuesday by the “Gloucestershire goes to Westminster” event, locally produced food and drink is extremely popular. May we find a way of demonstrating how important local produce is to the rural economy, and have a debate to discuss our locally produced food in the context of the common agricultural policy?
Mr Lansley
As chance would have it, as I announced earlier the House will discuss a motion on reform of the CAP. Members greatly welcomed Gloucestershire coming to Westminster—many other areas have held similar events—to tell us about its local produce, something we all value in our constituencies.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
May we have a debate on the Olympic legacy? Walsall has the only brine swimming pool in the west midlands, which is used for hydrotherapy and general fitness. Walsall also nurtured Ellie Simmons, the Paralympic champion. However, the Gala baths are threatened with closure. May we have an urgent debate on how to protect these vital community services?
Mr Lansley
I cannot offer time at the moment, but we attach the greatest importance to the Olympic legacy, which Lord Coe is pursuing actively. We committed to the legacy as part of our Olympic bid, and I hope it will be as successful as the Olympics and Paralympics themselves. As regards securing a debate, I suspect that the hon. Lady might like to get together with other colleagues with a view to making representations to the Backbench Business Committee.
Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)
In an article in The Times yesterday, Daniel Finkelstein raised the issue of industrial policy and called it the economic big idea. I agree completely with this viewpoint. We still need a comprehensive industrial policy that will encourage investment in British manufacturing. May we have a debate on industrial policy and the role it can play in helping to rebalance our economy?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend will share my strong support for the industrial strategy set out by the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), which focuses on the many sectors where we have identified comparative advantage, and on rebalancing our economy geographically and away from an undue reliance on financial services, to bring forward internationally tradable manufacturing and service industries, which are the only basis for paying our way in the future. I cannot offer a debate on the strategy at the moment, but I hope I have indicated the importance we attach to it. We will look for opportunities for the House to help to frame its implementation.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Further to the previous question, City and Guilds today published research that shows that we in this place spend four times as much time debating academic qualifications as vocational qualifications and skills. Most people do not have degrees, while the vast majority of MPs do have them. When can we find time to debate the important issue of skills and vocational training in relation to our growth strategy? Does the Leader of the House have any idea how we might get more representation from people who have had real jobs in the past, and who have even faced redundancy?
Mr Lansley
I have found in business questions that hon. Members pay consistent and frequent attention to the development of skills. My colleagues have supported the doubling of apprenticeships that has taken place under this coalition Government and the introduction of traineeships to secure, as the Queen’s Speech set out, the expectation that all young people should be going into higher education, traineeships or apprenticeships, to ensure that we have appropriate skills at all levels for those going into the work force.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
I suspect that when the House meets to consider private Members’ Bills for the first time this Session on Friday 5 July it will be rather fuller than it is sometimes on a Friday. Given the likely increased interest in private Members’ Bills, may we please have a statement on whether the Government will if necessary provide more time for their consideration, and clarification on whether, if the Backbench Business Committee were so to decide, the time made available to that Committee could be allocated for the consideration of private Members’ Bills?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend, who increasingly understands intimately the workings of the House, will recall that the time available for private Members’ Bills is established in Standing Orders. It might encourage him to recall that last year that time was sufficient for 10 private Members’ Bills to secure Royal Assent.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
May we have a debate on Ministers’ responsiveness to Members? I wrote to the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury on behalf of my constituent Karen Bawker of Thorneside, Denton, on 4 April in follow-up to correspondence on 11 January, which was answered by him on 4 February. This time I have not had so much as an acknowledgement, let alone a reply, despite my having sent reminders, including most recently at the start of this week. Will the Leader of the House investigate this discourtesy and, through his good offices, also ensure that my constituent’s query is responded to?
Mr Lansley
I will of course be in touch with my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary, who I know is an assiduous and hard-working Minister. Like all of us, he seeks to respond to Members’ correspondence within 20 working days, and I am sure he will want to address the reasons he has failed to do so in this instance.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
May we have a statement from the Government about streamlining procedures at Companies House better to support people trying to start a business for the first time? A constituent of mine had his form returned because it was in the wrong colour ink, and when he sought advice and human guidance from Companies House he was told simply, “Look at our website.” When he re-filed to ensure that it was absolutely correct, Companies House returned it, having identified errors that it had missed first time, and then he was fined £375 and told that he was liable to prosecution for a criminal offence. I think we can do better in encouraging business.
Mr Lansley
It is not a happy tale my hon. Friend tells. I know that my hon. Friends at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will want to look at that. When we tackle red tape, as we are doing, we should not just be reducing the burden of regulation by taking away unnecessary regulations and simplifying others, but looking constantly—the Cabinet Office is leading on this across Government—at simplifying administration and reducing costs on those who have to comply with regulations.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
Last week, I made a most enjoyable and informative visit to the National Coal Mining museum near Wakefield, which adjoins my constituency. It was packed with families and children. I, too, would like to add my voice to the calls for a debate on our wonderful national museums and how best to support them financially during these difficult economic times.
Mr Lansley
I completely understand what my hon. Friend says. He will recall what I said about the Science Museum Group more generally. In that particular instance, although these are operational matters within the group, I understand that there is a £2.5 million per annum ring-fenced grant for the National Coal Mining museum.
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
In the light of the three debates on European documents that the Leader of the House announced, will he bring forward fresh proposals to enhance how the House and national Parliaments deal with European legislation?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As happy chance would have it, the Foreign Secretary is on the Front Bench alongside me. Last week in Berlin, he set out what I think is essential—I think both sides of the House might agree with this—
Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
indicated assent.
Mr Lansley
Yes, I am saying that we can agree about it. We should increase the influence of national Parliaments over legislation, for the achievement of which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has set out specific proposals. As Leader of the House, I want to work not least with the European Scrutiny Committee and the Liaison Committee to ensure that we use every opportunity to the maximum, identifying proposals as they come from the European Commission, intervening as early as possible, sending our political and reasoned opinions on the legislation and maximising our influence over EU legislation.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
May I remind the Leader of the House about private Members’ Bills and the days allocated to them? In the last Session the Government tabled a motion, which was passed by the House, to increase the number of sitting days for private Members’ Bills, so I am afraid that hiding behind Standing Orders to suggest that we cannot increase the number of sitting days for private Members’ Bills is not quite correct. May we have a statement on that?
Mr Lansley
I never like to disagree with my hon. Friend, but in that instance I think we brought forward a motion for the House additionally to sit on a Friday, but not for the consideration of private Members’ Bills—rather, it was for the extension of a debate. If I am wrong, I will gladly confess and correct that. As far as I am aware, the issue is simply put. The number of days—13—is set out in Standing Orders.
Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)
Sport, as we know, plays a crucial part in the development of young people. May we have a debate on the work of sports clubs in the community? By coincidence, 150 years ago the Yorkshire county cricket club played its first ever official cricket match here in London, across the river, against Surrey. One hundred and fifty years ago today, Yorkshire skittled out Surrey for 60 runs in the second innings. The Leader of the House will know the names: Hawke, Sutcliffe, Trueman, Close, Boycott, Gough, Lehmann, Vaughan—all Yorkshire sporting legends who have played for a club that does incredible good work in our community. As well as the debate, will the Leader of the House join me in congratulating Yorkshire on its anniversary? Will he also join me on Monday for a reception on the Terrace for Yorkshire county cricket club, where he will get to meet the great Geoffrey Boycott and the current Yorkshire squad?
Mr Lansley
Who can resist? I absolutely endorse that celebration and commemoration in this House. Let me say how much we applaud Yorkshire county cricket club for its many achievements over 150 years. It would be the greatest possible pleasure to meet some of those who have contributed to them. Cricket clubs in Yorkshire and across the country play a vital part in promoting sport and community life. Yorkshire has been at the forefront of that, and I hope we can celebrate that on Monday.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
It is widely anticipated that a decision on the future of the children’s heart surgery unit in Leeds will be known soon. There has been a wide campaign across the House, involving many Members. Can the Leader of the House assure us that when a decision is made, there will be an oral statement?
Mr Lansley
I will, of course, talk to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health. I am not aware that he has received, or made any decision in relation to, an Independent Reconfiguration Panel report, but I will of course discuss with him how an announcement will be made in due course.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Earlier this week you confirmed from the Chair, Mr Speaker, that the Standing Orders of the House permit only the Government to make a formal request to recall Parliament. Given that Governments can be tempted to make major policy announcements during the recess and given that the Leader of the House is, after all, the leader of all of us in this place, would he be kind enough to give consideration to amending the relevant Standing Order, so that if a certain threshold—for example, 20%—of Members requesting a recall were met, they would be able to use that mechanism to make a formal request?
Mr Lansley
Of course, my hon. Friend understands that I take very seriously my responsibility to represent both the Government in this House and the House as a whole, including within the councils of Government. From my point of view, in my recent experience I do not see any mischief—in the sense that there have been issues on which it was thought appropriate for the House to be recalled when Ministers did not take a suitable initiative—but I will keep this under review.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
This morning the Government issued an important statement about the public voice in relation to onshore wind farms. Three times this morning you have called me, Mr Speaker, and I have asked a similar question about how the statement will affect Wales. I have not received a satisfactory answer. I have been left in a position of deep frustration, and I am sure the people of Wales feel the same. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that we have an early statement clarifying the position, so that people in Wales will know that applications for developments over 50 MW, which are not devolved, will be subject to today’s new guidelines?
Mr Lansley
I completely understand my hon. Friend’s concern about this, and his desire to secure proper answers. If I may, I will talk to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales to see how we might expedite a response.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
Engineering businesses in my constituency have told me of the challenges that they face in recruiting, particularly in relation to the academic backgrounds of applicants. They are looking for achievement in computer sciences, mathematics and physics. May we please have a debate to discuss what more the Government could do to encourage participation in those critical subjects, and to ensure high standards in the curriculum and rigour in the examinations?
Mr Lansley
From my point of view, I am clear that my ministerial colleagues in the Department for Education and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are working closely together to ensure that we maximise our support for education and training in science, technology and engineering. The first job I ever did, many years ago, was in the then Department of Industry, and it was to support the Young Engineer for Britain scheme and Women into Science and Engineering. This has been a long, hard struggle, but companies today still feel that we in this country do not attach as much importance to science, technology and mathematics as other countries do. We have made significant progress recently in the number of students following those subjects and the success that they are achieving, but we still need to attach greater importance to encouraging the brightest and best to go into engineering and manufacturing industry.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
Almost exactly 12 months ago, I raised with the then Leader of the House my concerns about a stretch of the M6 that has become known as “Rugby’s mad mile” because of the large number of accidents in the traffic queuing to join the A14 at Catthorpe. His response was that funds had been allocated for improvements, but that a public inquiry was needed. Twelve months on, we are waiting for the outcome of that public inquiry, but accidents are continuing to happen, with yet another fatality occurring only last week. Given the importance of that junction to the UK motorway network, may we have a ministerial statement on the progress on bringing forward those urgently needed improvements?
Mr Lansley
As somebody who lives down the A14 in an eastward direction, I am only too familiar with the Catthorpe interchange. My hon. Friend will know that the local public inquiry into the proposed improvement of junction 19 and related sections of the M6 and A14 closed on 16 March this year. The Department for Transport received the inspector’s report on 16 May. The report is currently being considered, and a decision will be issued as soon as possible. Subject to a satisfactory outcome of this statutory process, the Highways Agency expects that construction could start in the spring of 2014. That would be sooner than the date announced in the Chancellor’s 2011 autumn statement, when it was stated that the scheme would be prepared for start of construction before 2015.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
May I add my voice to the call for a debate on the importance of local museums and the way in which they protect our culture and heritage for future generations? An example is the fantastic National Railway museum in York, which I visited many times as a young boy. I now have the pleasure of taking my young children there, and I know how important that museum is to York’s DNA.
Mr Lansley
Yes, indeed. I know that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I do not reiterate what I said earlier about the Science Museum Group, but I will ensure that all the contributions relating to this subject, including his question on the National Railway museum, are brought to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport.
Mau Mau Claims (Settlement)
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
With permission, I would like to make a statement on a legal settlement that the Government have reached concerning the claims of Kenyan citizens who lived through the emergency period and the Mau Mau insurgency from October 1952 to December 1963.
During the emergency period, widespread violence was committed by both sides, and most of the victims were Kenyan. Many thousands of Mau Mau members were killed, while the Mau Mau themselves were responsible for the deaths of over 2,000 people, including 200 casualties among the British regiments and police.
Emergency regulations were introduced; political organisations were banned; prohibited areas were created; and provisions for detention without trial were enacted. The colonial authorities made unprecedented use of capital punishment and sanctioned harsh prison, so-called “rehabilitation”, regimes. Many of those detained were never tried, and the links of many with the Mau Mau were never proven. There was recognition at the time of the brutality of these repressive measures and the shocking level of violence, including an important debate in this House on the infamous events at Hola camp in 1959.
We recognise that British personnel were called upon to serve in difficult and dangerous circumstances. Many members of the colonial service contributed to establishing the institutions that underpin Kenya today, and we acknowledge their contribution. However, I would like to make it clear now and for the first time on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government that we understand the pain and grievance felt by those who were involved in the events of the emergency in Kenya. The British Government recognise that Kenyans were subject to torture and other forms of ill treatment at the hands of the colonial administration. The British Government sincerely regret that these abuses took place and that they marred Kenya’s progress towards independence. Torture and ill treatment are abhorrent violations of human dignity, which we unreservedly condemn.
In October 2009, claims were first brought to the High Court by five individuals, who were detained during the emergency period, regarding their treatment in detention. In 2011, the High Court rejected the claimants’ arguments that the liabilities of the colonial administration transferred to the British Government on independence, but allowed the claims to proceed on the basis of other arguments.
In 2012, a further hearing took place to determine whether the cases should be allowed to proceed. The High Court ruled that three of the five cases could do so. The Court of Appeal was due to hear our appeal against that decision last month. However, I can announce today that the Government have now reached an agreement with Leigh Day, the solicitors acting on behalf of the claimants, in full and final settlement of their clients’ claims.
The agreement includes payment of a settlement sum in respect of 5,228 claimants, as well as a gross costs sum to the total value of £19.9 million. The Government will also support the construction of a memorial in Nairobi to the victims of torture and ill-treatment during the colonial era. The memorial will stand alongside others that are already being established in Kenya as the country continues to heal the wounds of the past. The British high commissioner in Nairobi is today making a public statement to members of the Mau Mau War Veterans Association in Kenya, explaining the settlement and expressing our regret for the events of the emergency period.
This settlement provides recognition of the suffering and injustice that took place in Kenya. The Government of Kenya, the Kenya Human Rights Commission and the Mau Mau War Veterans Association have long been in favour of a settlement, and it is my hope that the agreement now reached will receive wide support, will help draw a line under these events and will support reconciliation.
We continue to deny liability on behalf of the Government and British taxpayers today for the actions of the colonial administration in respect of the claims, and indeed the courts have made no finding of liability against the Government in this case. We do not believe that claims relating to events that occurred overseas outside direct British jurisdiction more than 50 years ago can be resolved satisfactorily through the courts without the testimony of key witnesses, which is no longer available. It is therefore right that the Government have defended the case to this point since 2009.
It is, of course, right that those who feel they have a case are free to bring it to the courts. However, we will also continue to exercise our own right to defend claims brought against the Government, and we do not believe that this settlement establishes a precedent in relation to any other former British colonial administration.
The settlement I am announcing today is part of a process of reconciliation. In December this year, Kenya will mark its 50th anniversary of independence and the country’s future belongs to a post-independence generation. We do not want our current and future relations with Kenya to be overshadowed by the past. Today, we are bound together by commercial, security and personal links that benefit both our countries. We are working together closely to build a more stable region. Bilateral trade between the UK and Kenya amounts to £1 billion each year, and around 200,000 Britons visit Kenya annually.
Although we should never forget history and, indeed, must always seek to learn from it, we should also look to the future, strengthening a relationship that will promote the security and prosperity of both our nations. I trust that this settlement will support that process. The ability to recognise error in the past but to build the strongest possible foundation for co-operation and friendship in the future are both hallmarks of our democracy.
Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
May I thank the Foreign Secretary for his statement and for advance sight of it? However, may I begin my remarks by asking him about a procedural point: why, given a Minister’s obligation to the House and the importance of this announcement, were the details, including the wording of the statement of regret, the scale of the quantum agreed and details of the legal background to the settlement, all provided to the newspapers yesterday before they were to the House of Commons today? A full report appeared on The Guardian website at 6.42 yesterday evening and on The Times website at 7.30 yesterday evening. I hope that in his response the Foreign Secretary will offer the House a candid explanation as to why that occurred.
Let me turn to the substance of the matter in the Foreign Secretary’s statement. First, may I place on record the cross-party consensus that exists on this issue and offer my support for the Foreign Secretary’s efforts in seeing a legal settlement being agreed? Much has already been said of the suffering on all sides that lies at the heart of today’s announcements. On 20 October 1952, Governor Baring signed an order declaring a state of emergency in Kenya. The violence that followed, carried out by both sides in the conflict, has been well documented, not least thanks to the brave and tragic testimony of many survivors who lived through it. As the Foreign Secretary said, there were hundreds of casualties among the British soldiers, police and officials, but during the period of emergency in Kenya most of the victims and casualties were Kenyan, with many thousands of Mau Mau members killed, and thousands more imprisoned and displaced. It is therefore right that the Foreign Secretary recognised the challenges and dangers that British personnel in Kenya faced at that time, but the mass detention camps, the forced resettlement and the levels of brutality that characterised that period in Kenyan history must also be recognised. The numbers of dead and those not accounted for is, of course, still debated, but I think there is broad consensus in all parts of this House that the scale of the suffering was profound and deeply regrettable.
That is why I welcome today’s statement by the Foreign Secretary and want to echo his words acknowledging that Kenyans were tortured and mistreated by the colonial administration. I also want to support further today’s expression of deep regret and unreserved condemnation of those actions. The British Government are right to reflect on our country’s colonial past, not simply because the legacy of our past is still being felt today, but because we must look to history, learn its lessons and use them to help chart a course going forward. All parts of this House share an interest in seeing this issue resolved, which is why today I wish to put on record my support for the right hon. Gentleman’s work over recent months to press for a fair resolution as Foreign Secretary.
So we support the announcements made today in the Foreign Secretary’s statement, but I seek his clarification on a number of issues that arise as a result. First, could he confirm to the House which departmental budget is funding the £19.9 million of which he spoke, which makes up the full and final settlement announced today? Will he also set out what meetings his Department has had with representatives of the Mau Mau claimants, and could he update the House as to their collective view of and response to today’s announcement? Indeed, will he further explain what he anticipates will be the response of the Kenyan Government, in particular, to today’s announcement?
The British Government must continue, of course, to be categorical in their condemnation of torture and ill treatment, which are abhorrent violations of human dignity. It is right that current and future relations with Kenya are not overshadowed by the past. So, along with the Foreign Secretary, I hope that today’s announcement will encourage even stronger ties between our two nations going forward, despite, but not ignoring, our shared and, at times, troubled past.
Mr Hague
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I agree that the cross-party approach is important. These claims were first made in 2009, under the last Government, and the last Government decided to contest them in the courts. That was the right decision, because all of us together contest the liability of British taxpayers in the 21st century for what happened under colonial administrations. However, we are also right to support this settlement together, because it is the best outcome all round for both the British taxpayer and the claimants. Many of the claimants are of course very old, and further protracted legal proceedings would not necessarily be in their interests.
The right hon. Gentleman asked, quite rightly, about reports in the press. As I think he and the House recognise, I am an enthusiast for announcing things to Parliament. While I am not in a position to point a finger of accusation at anyone, I note that, in view of the nature of the settlement, information about it had been circulated beyond the Government before today. I also note that some of the figures given in newspaper reports are different from the figures that I have given today, and have clearly not come from the Foreign Office. However, the right hon. Gentleman was absolutely right to make the point that such announcements are best made to Parliament in the first instance. He was also right to join in the sincere regret that the Government have expressed: it will mean a great deal in Kenya that regret has been expressed by the Opposition as well as by the Government.
Let me turn to the specific questions that the right hon. Gentleman asked. The claim will not be met by any departmental budget; it is a claim on the Treasury reserve. That is what the reserve is for—to provide lump sums that cannot be anticipated or budgeted for.
The right hon. Gentleman asked what meetings the Government had had. This matter has been a subject of legal proceedings for four years, and the meetings that have been held with the aim of reaching a settlement have taken place with the lawyers of the claimants. From that it can be deduced that the claimants are happy with the settlement. Certainly the lawyers have expressed satisfaction on their behalf.
The Kenyan Government called for a settlement, and it is now for them to react to this settlement in whatever way they wish, but I hope that they will welcome it. The British high commissioner in Nairobi has met the Kenyan human rights commission and representatives of the Mau Mau in recent weeks, and, as I said in my statement, he will be speaking to Mau Mau veterans today, in particular about our plans for a memorial. However, all the contact in London has been with the lawyers.
Let me say again that, like the right hon. Gentleman, I believe that stronger ties between our countries are very important. Kenya is an important partner of this country in trade and tourism, and also—this is particularly important—in countering terrorism and seeking stability in east Africa. We work with Kenya closely in trying to bring stability to Somalia, for instance. I hope that the settlement will make it easier for us to do all those things in the future.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I support what we have done. However, when I was a little boy my father was a soldier operating in Aden, and I remember being absolutely petrified by the stories of British-origin settlers and farmers being chopped to bits by the Mau Mau. I note that we are going to subsidise and help to build a memorial to the Mau Mau, but may I make a suggestion? Given that not only were 200 British soldiers and policemen killed, but 1,800 civilians perished as a result of Mau Mau activities, I think that it would be very appropriate for a memorial to be erected to them—both Kenyans and those of British origin.
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend is right to remind the House that terrible acts were committed on both sides over a long period, between 1952 and 1963. Thirty-two European settlers were murdered in horrific circumstances, and many actions that can only be categorised as terrorist actions were undertaken by people who were part of the Mau Mau insurgency.
Equally, however, it is important for us to recognise—as we do, across the House—that torture and inhuman and degrading treatment can never, and should never, be part of our response to any outrage, however terrible. That is because we uphold our own high standards of human rights, and also because it is not an effective way in which to respond to any such outrages. It is very important that we express our own regret and acknowledge mistakes that were made, even though terrible acts were carried out on both sides.
As my hon. Friend will have noted, I recognised in my statement the service done by those employed by the colonial administration, who did so much work to build the institutions that underpin Kenya today. My statement was about the recognition of people engaged in the Mau Mau insurgency or accused of being so engaged, and I think that questions about other memorials and recognition of other people are for a different occasion, but I take full account of the point that my hon. Friend has made.
Mr Speaker
Order. I appreciate that these are extremely sensitive matters, but we have a heavy schedule, so we need to speed things up somewhat.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I thank the Foreign Secretary for his statement, but I was a bit surprised when, towards the end of it, he said that the British Government “continue to deny liability” for what happened. It is very strange that the Government should arrive at a settlement with Leigh Day and offer compensation, and at the same time deny liability.
Liability was well known in the 1950s. Fenner Brockway, Barbara Castle, Leslie Hale, Tony Benn and many other MPs raised the issue in Parliament during the 1950s. It is only the steadfastness of people in Kenya who stood for justice and against the use of concentration camps, torture, castration, and all the vile things that were done to Kenyan prisoners by the British forces that has finally brought about this settlement. I met many of those victims last year when they came here to go to court, and I pay tribute to them, and to Dan Thea and others who have organised the campaign that has finally brought this day about.
There are serious lessons to be learnt. When we deny rights and justice, when we deny democracy, when we use concentration camps, our actions reduce our ability to criticise anyone else for that fundamental denial of human rights. That lesson needs to be learnt not just from Kenya, but from other colonial wars in which equal brutality was employed by British forces.
Mr Hague
I fully accept the hon. Gentleman’s extensive knowledge. He is right to speak about the terrible nature of some of the things that happened, and also right to speak—as I did a few moments ago—about the importance of upholding our own highest standards, expressing that very clearly to the world, and ensuring that we do it now.
The hon. Gentleman asked, in particular, about the consistency between recognition of those things and the Government’s continuing to deny liability. What we are making clear—as the last Government did when contesting these claims in the courts in 2009—is that we do not agree with the principle that generations later, 50 or 60 years on in the 21st century, the British taxpayer can be held liable for what happened under colonial administrations in the middle of the 20th century. However, while we cannot accept that as a principle, we have reached a settlement in this case, and I am pleased that it has been welcomed in the House.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
Governments of various political colours have contested these claims through the courts over a period. May I first ask the Foreign Secretary what, specifically, has happened recently to cause the Government to change their position and acquiesce in this? Secondly—
Mr Speaker
Order. I think that one question will do. I have just made a point about brevity, which should not be flagrantly defied.
Mr Hague
I will try also to give brief answers. I described in my statement how the legal cases were proceeding. There had been a series of hearings in 2011 and 2012. The Government had contested all of the cases, but the High Court had decided that three out of five of them could proceed, on grounds that were quite specific to this particular case and to the Mau Mau insurgency. It does not therefore set a precedent for other cases. Given that it had decided that, the Government came to the view that it was in the interests of the British taxpayer, and also of the claimants, to come to a settlement on this particular matter.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Terrible things were undoubtedly done on both sides, but may I tell the Foreign Secretary that many of us opposed from the start what we considered to be a totally unnecessary colonial war, as, indeed, we opposed what happened in Cyprus at around 1960? Although I would not normally quote Enoch Powell, because of the outburst in 1968 and other matters, in the debate on 27 July 1959 on the murder of 11 African detainees, he said:
“We cannot say, ‘We will have African standards in Africa, Asian standards in Asia and perhaps British standards here at home’…We cannot, we dare not, in Africa of all places, fall below our own highest standards in the acceptance of responsibility.”—[Official Report, 27 July 1959; Vol. 610, c. 237.]
For once, Enoch Powell was right.
Mr Speaker
I think the Foreign Secretary will remember that Denis Healey described the speech in his autobiography as the greatest parliamentary speech he ever heard, carrying all the moral force of Demosthenes.
Mr Hague
Enoch Powell did, indeed, give a remarkable and powerful speech in the debate in 1959, and I read it in preparing for this statement. [Interruption.] I was not born at the time, so I did not read it then. There will be many strong views held about the events of that time, although most of us who are Members of the House now did not have a strong view at the time because we were not around then, but there is a strong tradition in this House going all the way back to the 18th century. In the 1780s, Edmund Burke called Governments to account for colonial misdeeds in India and sought to bring Warren Hastings to trial. There is a long and proud history of this House asserting itself on the errors that have been made during our imperial rule of other countries, and our recognition of these errors today is part of that long tradition.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement. It serves us well to approach this whole matter with sensitivity and humility. There are some fairly serious disputes about the numbers of people involved. The official figures say 11,000 Mau Mau rebels were killed and only 32 white settlers, but David Anderson, professor of African politics at Oxford, says that probably 25,000 people died at the hands of the colonial organisation. I wonder whether there should be a debate about the past, and whether we ought to make sure that adults, some of whom will remember these events, know about what happened, and also that young people learn from this period of history. Might the Foreign Secretary speak to the Education Secretary and consider whether this part of our colonial past, which did not cover us with glory, might be a topic for discussion in schools?
Mr Hague
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her remarks. I do not suppose there will ever be universally agreed figures in respect of what happened and how many people were killed in what was such a confused and terrible situation in such a large country. I will refer her points on to my hon. Friends with responsibility for these matters, and the Deputy Leader of the House is present, hearing another bid for parliamentary time and discussion. It is very important for us always to learn, in whatever form, from mistakes of the past. We are recognising that today. Indeed, the abhorrence of torture and ill treatment, and the strictness of the rules we now have against that for everyone working on behalf of the United Kingdom, are part of our recognition that mistakes were made in the past.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I also welcome this important and historic statement, which was so eloquently delivered by the Foreign Secretary. These were dark days in the history of our country. My wife was born in Kisumu in Kenya, and her family lived through this violence. Many thousands of Kenyan Asians have come to settle in Leicester. They will see this as a line being drawn in the sand. How does the Foreign Secretary intend to take the relationship with Kenya forward in the future?
Mr Hague
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his support for the statement. The relationship with Kenya is very important to our country, and I mentioned a few moments ago the many different dimensions of it. It is a relationship that we want to expand, in terms of trade in particular, to the benefit of both nations. It is also very important for stability in east Africa. Given the UK’s leading role there, for instance in the work we do on Somalia, our relations with Kenya, Uganda and Ethiopia are of great importance, and we give great attention to them. I hope relations between the UK and Kenya will develop over the coming years and decades in a true sense of partnership, with the new generations moving on fully from everything that happened in the colonial era. A sense of equal partnership with African nations is now how we should approach our relationships with these countries.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
I welcome the statements, expressing regret, made by both the Foreign Secretary and the shadow Foreign Secretary. The ghastly impact of Mau Mau on African Kenyan citizens as well as European settlers is well documented in the wonderful books by the Kenyan writer Ngugi wa Thiong’o, but we must accept that there were totally unacceptable actions by British colonial authorities, and I am glad that has happened today. We have an important development relationship with Kenya, and important joint security concerns, such as on piracy off the coast of Africa. To what extent will this statement make it easier for our countries to co-operate, and to do so better than before, on issues of common interest?
Mr Hague
I hope it will make it easier. It should remove one of the areas of contention between the UK and Kenya—or the people of Kenya. The hon. Gentleman rightly notes the breadth and importance of our co-operation, so I hope it will smooth the path for our effective co-operation in the future. Of course that relies on many other things, however. It relies on the daily commitment of each nation to make our bilateral relations work successfully, but I certainly hope this settlement will be a help, rather than a hindrance, in that very important process.
Backbench Business
Public Administration Committee Report (Charity Commission)
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the matter of the publication of the Third Report of the Public Administration Select Committee, The role of the Charity Commission and “public benefit”: Post-legislative scrutiny of the Charities Act 2006, HC 76.
I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for the opportunity to launch the Public Administration Committee’s third report of this Session. This is, in many ways, one of the Committee’s most important reports. The charitable sector is at the heart of British society, involving millions of people and with £9.3 billion received in donations last year. About 25 new applications for charitable status are received by the Charity Commission every working day.
The first UK charity was established in the year 597: the King's school, Canterbury, which still thrives today. The regulation of charities in England and Wales started under Queen Elizabeth I, with the 1601 Statute of Charitable Uses, which set out the first definition of a charity in English law and the purposes for which a charity could be established. The definition of a charity has remained largely unchanged from that time. Page 8 of our report carries a useful timeline of the development of charity law since then.
The subject of the Committee’s inquiry was the Charities Act 2006. Our inquiry followed the Government’s own review of the Act, carried out by Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts. I hope the House will join me in thanking my noble Friend for his valuable and meticulous work.
The Committee’s inquiry came at a challenging time for the Charity Commission. Its budget is being reduced by 33% in real terms over five years. The Charity Commission has also become involved in some protracted legal battles. It lost a case with the Independent Schools Council and its decision last year to decline an application for charitable status from the Preston Down Trust, part of what is called the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church or, formerly, the Exclusive Brethren—
Paul Flynn
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman said that he will give way at the end of his remarks. I understand that the debate is time limited, so can he give us some idea of when he is likely to finish? I am the only other member of the Committee in the Chamber and I profoundly disagree with this very poor report. If I am to be gagged and not allowed to speak by the Chair—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I am sure that that is not the intention, Mr Flynn. Under this procedure, Mr Jenkin can take up to 20 minutes to present his report but he will take interventions as he is going along.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I think we should interpret his remarks, as I did, to mean that he wanted to finish the point he was making before he took an intervention. I am sure that that was what you meant, Mr Jenkin, was it not?
Mr Jenkin
I will give way to the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and I can assure the House that I have never been able to gag him, try as I might. I can assure him that my speech will by no means fill the 20 minutes available; I hope it will fill no more than half that.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. I want to make sure that we are both clear on the procedure. If you make your remarks and sit down, that is the end, so we need you to take interventions during your speech.
Mr Jenkin
I quite understand.
We received firm advice from the Attorney-General that we should treat the Preston Down case as sub judice to avoid prejudging any future tribunal decisions. In any case, it is not for PASC to determine the charitable status of individual cases.
The impact of the 2006 Act on the issue of public benefit and charitable status was at the centre of the inquiry. It has always been the case that charities must be established for charitable purposes only and that a charitable purpose must be “for the public benefit”, but the 2006 Act is said to have removed the presumption of public benefit from the list of headings that has historically existed, although case law prompts the question whether there ever was in fact such a presumption. However, the Act also placed a duty on the commission to publish guidance on public benefit, even though Parliament failed to define “public benefit” in the Act.
That aspect of the Act has been an administrative and financial disaster for the Charity Commission and for the charities involved, absorbing vast amounts of energy and commitment. Lord Hodgson describes the public benefit aspect of the Act as “a hospital pass”, inviting the commission to become involved in matters such as the charitable status of independent schools, which have long been a matter of political controversy.
We criticise the Charity Commission’s interpretation of the Act in some cases, but ultimately find that
“the Charities Act 2006 is critically flawed on the question of public benefit and should be revisited by Parliament”.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend give way on that point?
Mr Jenkin
I will give way to my hon. Friend when I am close to the end of my remarks.
We recommend that the presumption of public benefit in the 2006 Act should be repealed along with the Charity Commission’s statutory public benefit objective. The situation must be rectified with a new Act to allow the commission to focus on its proper job. Parliament, not the Charity Commission, should determine the criteria for charitable status and should not delegate them to an executive body.
We concluded that the other objectives for the Charity Commission set by the 2006 Act are also far too vague and aspirational in character—an all-too-frequent shortcoming of modern legislative drafting—to determine what the Charity Commission should do, given the limitations on its resources, to fulfil its statutory objectives.
Mr Jenkin
The Cabinet Office must consider how to prioritise what is expected of the Charity Commission, so that it can function with its reduced budget. That must enable it to renew its focus on regulation as its core task. The commission is not resourced, for example,
“to promote the effective use of charitable resources”
or, for that matter, to oversee a reappraisal of what is meant by “public benefit”; nor is it ever likely to be.
PASC’s report also makes recommendations on the issue of chugging—that is, the face-to-face fundraising whereby many feel pressured by chuggers.
Mr Jenkin
I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in a moment.
The chair of the Charity Commission, William Shawcross, described chugging as
“a blight on the charitable sector”.
Self-regulation has failed so far to address that. The case for statutory regulation of fundraising is compelling, but what about the cost, whether to the taxpayer or to charities themselves? Self-regulation has made some progress, but we recommend that it is placed on notice and reviewed in five years’ time.
Lord Hodgson proposed a rise in the threshold for compulsory registration with the Charity Commission to £25,000 a year to reduce red tape for smaller charities. We rejected that on the basis of the overwhelming majority of the evidence we received.
We also recommended against any relaxation of the rules on political campaigning by charities. Moreover, charities should publish their spending on campaigning and political activity to boost transparency. That is relevant to the question of lobbying, which Parliament is shortly to consider.
As for the question whether public funds should be used by charities involved with political campaigns, again transparency is the answer. Ministers should inform Parliament whenever a decision is made to provide Government support by direct grant to a charity that is involved in political campaigning.
Earlier this week, the Public Accounts Committee reported on the case of the Cup Trust and the specific issue of sham charities and tax avoidance. We welcome its report and the Charity Commission should learn from that scandal. We question whether the commission’s legal advice was too cautious and whether they should have acted more boldly. If the commission feels that it lacks necessary powers, it should tell us. Generally, however, the abuse of charitable status to obtain tax relief is intolerable and should be uncovered by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Charity Commission working more closely together.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Paul Flynn
The report does nothing to add to the reputation of this House. It is an atrocious report and it is a bad reflection on our systems that the Chairman of the Committee can take up the entire time devoted to its consideration.
Let me take the hon. Gentleman back to the point about the situation with independent public schools. It was hoped that the 2006 Act would change the unfairness whereby Eton and Harrow get a handout from taxpayers whereas ordinary schools in poor areas do not. The Act tried to change that, but a perverse decision taken by the law stated that the status of a charity depends on what it was established for, not on what it does. Two charities—one in Wales that exists to give petticoats to fallen women and another that exists to give education to the orphans of the Napoleonic wars—are more important than the fact that ordinary schools are deprived of charity status whereas public schools for the rich and privileged continue to enjoy that status and the related handouts.
Mr Jenkin
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, because he demonstrates the diversity of view on the question of the charitable status of independent schools. That shows why that matter should be decided by this House and Parliament, rather than simply being passed to the Charity Commission to determine. It is too controversial and we should not be delegating legislative functions to an executive body.
Mr Sheerman
I am obviously not a member of the hon. Gentleman’s Committee, but I am a trustee and chair of a number of charities. Can he comment at all on the well-known whistleblower who worked for the Charity Commission but said that the weakness of the commission is that it has absolutely no power to investigate what is known to be widespread fraud in the charitable world? The commission is ineffective at doing that and does not have the necessary staff. Even the staff it does have are not directed to that large-scale fraud, which the whistleblower who came to see me told me is going on and must be stopped.
Mr Jenkin
I am mindful of the hon. Gentleman’s point. We did not major on that during this inquiry, but it might be something to which we return. We recommend in our report that the Charity Commission and HMRC should work much more closely together. In fact, HMRC has the resource to investigate, penetrate and demand information about charities and their tax affairs and donors. In my personal opinion, it is as much a failure of HMRC as of the Charity Commission, but we recommend they work together more closely. What we have to be absolutely clear about is that the Charity Commission cannot start to conduct extensive investigations into the tax affairs of charities and their donors; it simply is not resourced to do so.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Mr Bone, I quite agree. Mr Sheerman, Mr Flynn, you have made your contributions, and shouting across the Chamber is not helpful.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Well, the next time he shouts across the Chamber when I am in the Chair, I can assure you I will pick him up, as I do everyone. Mr Bone, you may continue.
Mr Bone
May I refer to a different aspect of the report, on charitable status for religious institutions? Many such institutions feel that there has been creep by the Charity Commission in defining public benefit or, worse still, going to the tribunal to define it. From what the Chair of the Committee is saying, I gather that he thinks this is something that Parliament should revisit.
Mr Jenkin
That is exactly right. The legal advice we received on this question is quite clear: in the 1949 case of Gilmour v. Coats, the House of Lords made it clear that a cloistered religious order is not charitable, as any benefit is restricted to its members, who are a private class and not a sufficient section of the public. It has never been the case that every religious organisation is automatically charitable. However, the judgments in two other cases—Neville Estates v. Madden in 1962 and Re Banfield in 1968—were that a private religious group that is not wholly shut off from the world at large may be charitable.
The 2006 Act was not intended to introduce anything new, and it may have introduced some instability by requiring the commission to think up guidance on public benefit. That is what we feel was the real mistake—the apparent removal of the presumption and the requirement to produce guidance. If Parliament wants public benefit to be defined, it should define public benefit or it should leave the matter to the courts. Making the Charity Commission use its intervening judgment is what Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts described as the hospital pass.
Mr Nuttall
I thank my hon. Friend and his Committee for their report. I look forward to reading it in more detail, but I will be honest and say that I have only had a chance to skim through it. I want to concentrate on conclusion 28, on the payment of trustees. Does he agree with me that in cases where there are voluntary trustees who are willing to replace expensive paid-for corporate trustees, that should be encouraged, welcomed and, indeed, facilitated by the Charity Commission?
Mr Jenkin
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question, because we were presented by my noble Friend Lord Hodgson with a recommendation that it should be made much easier for trustees to be paid officials. I have to say that there was a strong reaction against that proposal, which has a bearing on the point my hon. Friend raises because the whole point about charities is that trustees are not paid. There may be quite highly paid executives in charities, but the job of a trustee is not to benefit financially from being a trustee. There are exceptions, but the Charity Commission has to approve them. I believe my hon. Friend is suggesting that the commission should be prepared to withdraw that consent in the event of a person offering to do the job for nothing. I invite the commission to consider that matter, which we may revisit in a future inquiry.
Paul Flynn
Following the remark by the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) that a number of Christian denominations have been under pressure from the Charity Commission, will the Chair of the Committee remind the House that 1,176 Christian and other religious associations were awarded charity status, but only one tiny and oppressive sect was turned down, and that was Hales Exclusive Brethren? Is it not appropriate to remind the House that we were subjected to the most intensive lobbying on this matter? Two million pounds was spent and I was personally approached—face to face—more than 50 times, including at my party conference. Around every corner in this House, there were members of that very unpleasant sect waiting to accost us. The Committee made a point about the control of bodies that lobby in that way. It was not about religion or charitable status; it was about money.
Mr Jenkin
That is certainly correct. There has been widespread fear among many colleagues that the case presages a crackdown on religious groups by the Charity Commission. I believe the consistent message in our report is that we believe that too much has been laid at the door of the commission to determine. If Parliament wishes to legislate to provide additional restrictions against religious organisations, it is for Parliament to do that, but there is established case law, which I quoted earlier, that should determine whether or not a religious organisation becomes a charity. It is unfortunate that that particular case became so adversarial. It has to be said that the charity tribunal has not reduced the costs of litigation as was hoped, and there is scope to improve the practices of the commission in handling such disputes, so that vast amounts of the time and resources of the commission and charities, or potential charities, is not absorbed in paying lawyers to argue about how many angels there are on the head of a pin.
Paul Flynn
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that particular sect has been involved in lobbying in other countries—including paying politicians, although I am not saying that that has happened here—and that the resulting disquiet among other religious groups was entirely because of the propaganda of Hales Exclusive Brethren? This is not a religion; it is a very nasty sect that treats its members very badly. We had people giving evidence in this House that they were threatened with losing their job, their home or their mortgage because they bought the wrong computer—not the one that Exclusive Brethren have, which, rather like what happens in North Korea, can only pick up the group’s website. This is an exceptional group of people, and the Charity Commission took no action that was disreputable or wrong. The commission did the right thing in identifying that group and allowing 1,176 other religious groups to have charitable status.
Mr Jenkin
I am sure the whole House has heard the hon. Gentleman’s strong opinions on that matter. He will know that the Committee as a whole declined to express a definitive view on the matter on the advice of the Attorney-General. My understanding is that we all agreed that such matters would be best settled by Parliament laying down more clearly the meaning of public benefit or by returning to the previous position in which it was left to the courts to decide, rather than by requiring the Charity Commission to produce guidance on the meaning of public benefit, which has been the source of much dispute.
If there are no more interventions—I should be happy to give way to either Front Bencher—I will conclude by stating our belief that the implementation of our recommendations is essential to restore and to maintain public trust in charities and in the Charity Commission, which in turn is essential to promote the good work done by charitable organisations in communities across the country. I hope that the House will join me in thanking the charity commissioners and everyone who works for the commission. They are dealing with a vast work load with diminishing resources—like much of the public sector, they have had to suffer extensive redundancies, with more to come—and we rely on their devoted service. We should thank them for everything they do for charities in this country.
Question put and agreed to.
Student Visas
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move,
That this House notes the recommendations of the House of Commons Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, the Home Affairs Select Committee, and the Committee of Public Accounts, together with the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee and the EU Sub-Committee on Home Affairs, Health and Education, for the removal of students from net migration targets; and invites the Home Office to further consider the conclusions of these Committees in developing its immigration policy.
I thank the Back-Bench Business Committee for allocating time for this important debate. I am grateful to those Members who helped me get this Back-Bench business debate: my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), who is not only a fellow Select Committee member, but secretary of the all-party higher education group, whom I thank for the work that he has done, and the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), whom I thank for the assiduous way in which he has backed the Select Committee recommendations and worked to ensure that they get wider recognition.
The motion demonstrates that there have been five Select Committee reports on this subject. All have examined the student visas issue, all have come to similar conclusions and all have been consistently rejected by the Home Office, even though a considerable number of Government Members on the relevant Select Committees have backed those reports. However, the wording of the motion is deliberately designed not to pursue a confrontational approach with the Home Office, and I will not seek to divide the House on the motion. Rather, the motion has been tabled in order to give the House an opportunity to present a case for removing students from the net migration figures in a way that will be evidence-led and lead to further consideration in the evolution and, I hope, refinement of the Government’s immigration policies.
Keith Vaz
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I congratulate him on securing the debate and accurately reflecting the views of the Home Affairs Committee.
Does my hon. Friend agree that the way we conduct this debate—the language that we use—is extremely important? Over the past year, in the case of India, for example, there has been a 30% decline in the number of students coming to this country because the message has got out that they are not welcome here. Our message is that they are welcome here, and we need to reflect this in the debate that we have and in Government policy.
Mr Bailey
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. It is not just the regulatory regime, but the language surrounding the introduction and implementation of that regulatory regime, which define international perception of our policy. I will touch on that in the course of my remarks.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and his Committee on securing this debate on a very important issue. International students make a huge difference. I offer apologies from me and, I am sure, from the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, as we have a Home Affairs Committee debate in another place which starts shortly.
Further to the question from the Select Committee Chair, does the hon. Gentleman agree that there are three things that we have to get right—the rhetoric, the policy and the administration? If we fall foul of any of those, we will not get the outcomes that we need.
Mr Bailey
I agree. In varying degrees, none of those is right at present.
Before I go on to the substance of the issues, let me make it clear that no MP in any party can be unaware of public concerns about immigration or can fail to recognise the legitimacy of the Government’s intentions to address that. Similarly, I do not think that any MP in any party can object to actions being taken against bogus colleges and the use of education as a route to illegal immigration. I am sure all MPs of all parties would stand behind the Government and the education system as a whole in seeking to block that.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the Chairman of the Select Committee on this very good report. It meshes well with the Higher Education Commission report on post-graduate education, which he will know of. What is good about his report is that it flags up in a sensible way the problems of migration and bogus colleges, but points out strongly that, within this international market and this great employment and wealth creator, the universities of this country and post-graduate education in particular are sensitive to the possible reaction of legitimate students—highly qualified people—who come here.
Mr Bailey
The hon. Gentleman addresses an important point. Skills and higher education is now a global market. Those with the best brains are increasingly footloose and go to the places where they think they will get the best opportunity to develop their expertise and where they feel they will get the warmest welcome. It is in that international context that we must look at our policies on student visas.
In addressing what must be recognised as a hugely sensitive issue and a focus of public concern, the Government must have a student regime that does not deter bona fide international students and does not undermine our further education colleges, our universities or the wider economy. I recognise the efforts that the Prime Minister has made to visit India and China in particular to make it clear unequivocally that there is no cap on bona fide student applications. However, the Prime Minister has a credibility problem if, at the same time as he proclaims those things, students who wish to come to this country from abroad find that their dealings with the Home Office and the visa process completely contradict his public assertions.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend find it slightly perplexing that we have seen a drop of about 40,000 a year in overseas student numbers, which suggests that the very people he wants to attract are being deterred, and that simultaneously we have seen a huge growth in temporary student visas—the very group that the independent inspector warned is most likely to include bogus students?
Mr Bailey
My hon. Friend mentions an important point. I shall deal with that in some depth in a moment.
Within the regulatory regime, the current problems are focused on the inflexibility of the tier 4 visa for undergraduate education. Over and above that and linked to it are the problems associated with the post-study work visa. There is no doubt that many international students who want an undergraduate education want to carry that on at postgraduate level in order to demonstrate the skills that they have acquired in local universities, the local public sector or sometimes local businesses. The majority deterrent to that within the existing visa structure is the high salary threshold, which precludes much postgraduate working in areas where salaries for graduates are lower or in professions where salaries for graduates are lower.
Credibility interviews are the process that the Home Office is using to interview would-be international students in their home countries to establish the credibility of their claims to want higher education in this country. The feedback that I am getting time and again from universities is that that approach appears to be incoherent and inconsistent. Taken together with the change in regulations, it reinforces the perception abroad that Britain is no longer open to business. The fact that the Prime Minister needs to go to these countries and make these statements is a tacit admission that there is a real problem and a gap between the regulatory regime as stated by the Government and the perception of it abroad.
Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on his speech. In London alone, tuition fees are paid by overseas students to the value of £870 million, so we have a tremendous gain from these students coming here. At my local colleges, Goldsmith’s and Trinity Laban, the student experience is vastly enhanced by the presence of foreign students.
Mr Bailey
I thank my right hon. Friend for her intervention. I will elaborate on that point in a moment, and I am sure that Members representing other universities would seek to do so.
We really need to sing about the fact that further and higher education in Britain is a success story. It is not just a way for people to fulfil their personal career ambitions or to develop themselves culturally and socially, important though that is; it is an industry that earns £8 billion in exports and contributes £14 billion, in all, to the British economy. In certain towns, particularly in more deprived regions, it is crucial in sustaining employment levels and economies. Four UK universities are in the world university top 10 rankings, and a very high percentage are in the top 200. It is not just about the contribution that international students make to the economies of the local areas in which universities are located. Increasingly, universities are working in collaboration with local businesses to ensure that the research and skills that they develop are harnessed for commercial purposes or with the public sector to assist in the local community. I have seen fantastic examples of that work up and down the country, and it is crucially underpinned by international students.
Last year, 12% of the total student body comprised international students, 49% of whom enrolled in courses in engineering, maths and computer sciences—the very areas where there are serious skills shortages and the maximum economic dividend for our businesses. Any policy that restricts access into those areas will have, in the long term, profound implications for the capacity of our local businesses to grow the economy.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate from the Backbench Business Committee. He may well come to this point, but I would like to make it as well. Many people who come to this country to study get a very good impression of it. They get educated here and they experience our values and understand what we stand for. When they go back, they become a friend of this country in their own societies. That is terribly important for the future of our country and, indeed, their countries.
Jeremy Corbyn
I appreciate that, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He will be aware that I represent the constituency that includes London Metropolitan university. Although things have moved on a long way and some overseas students are now being recruited, will he express regret about how that university has been treated and the damage that was done to Britain’s international reputation by the Home Office’s handling of the situation?
Mr Bailey
Whatever the case for taking action there, the way that it was handled has undoubtedly had considerable adverse repercussions abroad. Perhaps the case needs to be examined to see whether similar problems that may emerge in future can be dealt with in a less damaging way.
We have a superb industry and there is a huge and increasing global demand for its product. It is estimated that 4.1 million students are studying in different countries from their home countries and that that figure will rise to 7 million by 2020. We have top-class universities and an expanding market of people who want to come here, and we must capitalise on that.
The Government have claimed that their visa policy is working because, according to the figures, there has been a marginal increase in the number of international students applying to come to British universities in the past year. In reality, there are considerable fluctuations, with an increase in numbers coming from China offsetting a huge fall of 25% in those coming from India. I have to say that Universities UK disputes some of these figures, but I do not want to get drawn into a debate between the Government and Universities UK. Everybody recognises that at a time when there is huge and growing demand, Britain is, at best, flatlining in terms of the number of recruits it is getting. In fact, Britain’s share of this expanding market has dropped from 10.8% to 9.9%. A shareholder of a company that had a fantastic product and an expanding market would not be very happy with its management if it were taking a declining share of that market.
The crucial significance of that was highlighted by the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart). It is not only about the immediate benefit but the long-term trading relationships that build up as a result. In the west midlands, we see that with the Tata brothers and their investment in Jaguar Land Rover, and with Lord Paul and his investment in schools and companies. There is a tremendous potential as regards the immeasurable contribution that will be made due to foreign students studying here.
This comes at a time when universities are struggling for finance; they recognise that in these hard times they cannot be exempt. Recruitment of international students presents an opportunity for them to bring in extra money that unfortunately they cannot get from the Government because of the current financial problems. My local university, Wolverhampton, currently recruits 800 international students each year, but it estimates that with a fair and consistent visa process it could take another 500 a year from India and Sri Lanka alone. If they contribute £10,000 a year, which is a fairly minimal estimate, that would amount to £5 million more a year going into the local university and, above all, into the black country economy. I think that that situation would be reflected in other universities that I have spoken to.
Earlier I mentioned the credibility test, which is undoubtedly one of the major problems. It is not only a regulatory problem but a process problem. One prospective Wolverhampton university student was rejected on the grounds that the amount of money he would spend in this country meant that he could get the same course at a domestic university in his own country. Imagine that happening in any other industry: if somebody told Jaguar, “You can’t export a Jaguar, because people can afford to buy one that’s made in their own country,” we would be up in arms and dancing in rage. In this case, however, nothing is said.
Mr Sharma
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and congratulate him on securing this debate. On immigration policy and practices, I am sure that the case loads of most MPs present will show that that kind of message deters genuine students from coming here. It means that the country loses finances and other resources as well as the individual student.
Mr Bailey
I agree entirely.
I have another example from Wolverhampton university. Six international students were refused visas even though they were sponsored by the Department for International Development. Moreover, when the Department wrote to the consulate, they were still rejected. If the Government cannot get their own people into the country through the Home Office system, what hope do so many young people from other countries have?
In its reply to the Select Committee report, the Home Office argued that other countries include students in their net migration figures. There are variations from country to country and I do not want to get bogged down in that argument, but the crucial thing is that, whether they do that or not, they do not use the figures as the basis for their immigration policy. The Government’s target of reducing net migration to fewer than 100,000 can only be achieved by reducing numbers. The current drop to 157,000 has been achieved mainly by reducing numbers in the further education sector and by increased numbers going abroad. The Migration Advisory Committee calculates that to reach the target, non-EU student numbers need to be reduced by 87,000. That would be catastrophic to the finances of the FE and higher education sectors.
In conclusion, a policy whose success relies on damaging a great export industry needs re-examination. This is an industry with a great brand, a huge demand for its product and incredible potential for boosting the economy, both locally and nationally, and it should be backed all the way. It is an industry that should be helped, not handicapped. The current visa regime, whatever the legitimacy of the broad objectives of the immigration policy, is not doing that. It is handicapping our universities. The answer is to change the policy and focus on the real immigration issues that are, I recognise, of great concern to the public.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Many Members want to speak, so may I gently suggest that they speak for up to 10 minutes? Unfortunately the opening speech lasted 23 minutes, so it has pushed us back. It was a very good speech—I am not knocking that—but I remind Members that we have to stick to the timetable because we need to fit in the Front Benchers as well.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
I shall attempt to take less than 10 minutes, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Ever since Erasmus came to study Greek at Cambridge 500 years ago, our universities have attracted the best and the brightest from around the world, but the world is changing. In the modern global marketplace, we have no God-given right to a competitive advantage in higher education. We have to fight for it.
As the Chairman of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee has said, there will be huge rewards for the British economy if we get this right. By 2020 the number of international students worldwide is set to grow to 7 million. Key strategic partners, such as Brazil and Saudi Arabia in the Gulf, have earmarked billions of dollars to spend on sending their students on scholarships abroad. This is a fast-growing market and if we want to win the global race we have to get serious about growing our market share.
We know that the competition is serious. Could there be any better example of the extraordinary lengths to which our rivals will go than the French Government’s recent decision to relax the ban on teaching in the English language at French universities? Let us be clear: even though we enjoy a commanding position in the market, over the past 10 years our market share has remained pretty flat. Over the same period, our two most obvious competitors after the United States—namely Australia and Canada—have recorded significant increases. What are they doing differently?
First, both countries present more attractive options for post-study work. Foreign students in Canada can work for up to three years after graduation, and in Australia they can work for up to two years, rising to three with a masters and four with a PhD. Crucially, they do not have to seek work with a Government-approved firm or on a Government-approved salary.
The other key difference is that both countries distinguish between the temporary student inflow and long-term migrants when devising their borders policy. Australia has learned the hard way why that makes sense. When student visa rules were tightened up in response to political pressure in 2010, the Australian higher education sector posted a 2.7 billion Australian dollar loss on goods and services that would otherwise have been purchased by overseas students. In the UK, we risk making the same mistake. In particular, the closure of the tier 1 post-study work route has broadcast the message around the world that foreign students are less welcome in the UK than they are in our competitor economies.
I believe that the perception of a policy is just as important as the policy itself. Even though it did not come to it, the prospect of legitimate students at London Metropolitan facing deportation was deeply damaging. We cannot expect the casual 17-year-old reader of the China Daily who is thinking about studying abroad to distinguish between London Metropolitan university and the University of London.
Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making some valid points. Does he agree that one of the key things that must come out of this debate is a clear message to students in India, China and other emerging economies with a lot of growth that the UK is open, that there are no caps or limits, and that they can come here if they go to an accredited establishment, can speak English and have the funding?
Nadhim Zahawi
I thank my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right that the message has to be that we are open for business. Indeed, the latest figures for 2010-11 and 2011-12 show that all the Russell group universities apart from three posted positive increases. There is some good news, but I hope that this debate will further inform the Government and the Home Office as to what else we can do to enhance the situation.
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)
Although I agree with my hon. Friend that we should give the message that we are open to legitimate students, will he also concede that this route has been abused in the past and that, equally, we have to give a message that we will be robust with those people who intend to exploit our good will as a route into the country?
Nadhim Zahawi
My hon. Friend is spot on in saying that we have to be robust and I will deal with that later. She is absolutely right to say that we have to carry the good will of the British people with us and demonstrate rigour in the immigration system and our border controls in order to be able to send a message to those areas that are crucial to our exports.
I want to return to the point that perception is reality and the example of the young student reading the China Daily. Fortunately, we know exactly what the problem is. With unprecedented unanimity, all five parliamentary Committees that have looked into this issue agree that the Government’s net migration target puts our borders policy on a collision course with our ambitions for higher education.
Political targets are an essential part of the democratic process. They tell the electorate what we are about and what our values are. However, targets are not an end in themselves, but a tool to measure the success of broader policy aims. The Government’s net migration target is about building an immigration system that works for Britain—one that delivers economic benefits while addressing long-standing public concerns about immigration. However, if we are trying to meet that target by discouraging a group who provide an obvious economic benefit, who are disproportionately less likely to settle here and who, of all migrant groups, attract the least public concern, something is wrong with the target.
I want immigration politics to be taken out of our higher education system. For that to happen, we must take international students out of the targets.
Alok Sharma
My hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way. Should we not be explaining to the public in more detail what the net migration figure is made up of and disaggregating it? We can debate whether student numbers should be taken out, but clearly we must explain each of the components, because that is not widely understood.
Nadhim Zahawi
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The disaggregation and further decimation of that information—
Nadhim Zahawi
Dissemination, I apologise. I will get my English right eventually. I only arrived here in 1978. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman.
Nadhim Zahawi
The hon. Gentleman is quite right.
We can do three things to solve this problem. First, we must continue to come down hard on immigration fraud. The Government are right to deal robustly with those who abuse the student route. The fact that we have closed down more than 500 bogus colleges since the election shows how easy it has been to exploit the student visa system in recent years. If we want to carry the public with us, it is vital to maintain public confidence in the integrity of our immigration system.
Jeremy Corbyn
I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making about bogus colleges, but does he have sympathy for the students who applied to enter this country to study at those colleges and who have had a very bad time through no fault of their own because they were duped into a very bad system? The system has changed a bit, but should we not have a more humanitarian approach to those people who, after all, are victims?
Nadhim Zahawi
The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that innocents get caught out in those situations. The best way to deal with the problem is to close down the colleges that are abusing the system and the students. Indeed, I spoke about London Metropolitan university in his constituency earlier and the perception that there is the forced deportation of legitimate students from this country.
Secondly, we must be more intelligent about where the risks and the opportunities lie for us. I hope that Ministers will listen to this point carefully. In targeting tier 4 visas, the UK Border Agency already distinguishes between high and low-risk students. There are face-to-face interviews for students who are considered to be high risk.
In my opinion, that should work the other way around and we should give the red-carpet treatment to the kind of students we want to attract to our country. For example, female students from the Gulf states are likely to have lower English language proficiency and are more likely to want to bring their spouses and children with them. If we want to see reform in the Gulf states, those are exactly the kind of students we need to attract. However, under the current rules, their dependants are obliged to return home every six months to renew their visa, and after 11 months the student must do the same. In Australia, Canada and America, dependants can apply for a visa that covers the whole study period. We do not need to rewrite the rule book; we just need to have more common sense and flexibility where our national interests are concerned.
Finally, we need a cross-party consensus to neutralise the political fallout. No Government want to be accused of fiddling the figures, particularly on a policy area as combustible as immigration. We need to present a united front when standing up for British economic interests. That is why I am sharing a platform with my colleagues from the Labour party on this motion.
I came into politics to get politics out of the way of British businesses that want to grow. Elsewhere in the economy, the Government have done great things to cut red tape and unnecessary bureaucracy. We must extend the same freedoms and opportunities to our higher education sector. I commend the motion to the House.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to speak after the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), just as it was to speak alongside him last September at the Conservative party conference, where we made the same points and received a good reception.
Paul Blomfield
I am not sure that I will make a habit of it. We made the point then and we make it again today that there is much cross-party unity on this issue. The fact that the motion has been sponsored by Members from all three main parties is a sign of that. From my discussions with Government Members, I am sure that, were they not tied by the responsibilities of office, many more of them would be joining us in support of the motion.
The case that we are making today was perhaps most powerfully put in an article in the Financial Times in May 2012 under the headline, “Foreign students are key to UK prosperity”. The author wrote:
“Britain’s universities are a globally competitive export sector and well-placed to make a greater contribution to growth. With economic growth at a premium, the UK should be wary of artificially hobbling it.”
The article continued:
“Now that the government has clamped down on the problem of bogus colleges”—
from my perspective, the last Government did that too—
“there is scope to take legitimate students out of the annual migration targets… Indeed, that is what our main competitors in the global student market already do.”
I do not disagree with a word in the entire article and I do not think that any of my hon. Friends would. Who was the author? It was the hon. Member for Orpington (Joseph Johnson), who is now head of the No. 10 policy unit. I quote from that article not to score a debating point, but to demonstrate the breadth of support for the motion.
At the outset of the debate, it is worth emphasising that international students are important not just because of their financial contribution, but because they add to the intellectual vitality of our campuses; they are vital to the viability of many courses, particularly in the STEM subjects of science, technology, engineering and maths; they contribute to the cutting-edge research that gives the UK a unique edge in international markets; and they give UK students the chance to learn alongside people from every other major country, which is extraordinarily good preparation for the transnational environment in which our graduates will work. As has been pointed out, international students form relationships and a fondness for this country that will win us contracts and influence as they become leaders back home.
Those are huge advantages for Britain, but let us put them to one side and look at the hard-nosed economic case. International students bring £8 billion into the UK economy each year. Higher education is a major industry and a major export earner. Some people ask, “What about the costs?” Indeed, the Minister made that point on the all-party parliamentary university group at one point. I discussed it with the university of Sheffield, which said, “Fair point. We ought to look at that”, and it commissioned Oxford Economics to undertake the first ever independent cost-benefit analysis of the contribution of international students. As an independent study I expected it to be quite rigorous, although I did not realise how rigorous. Oxford Economics did not just look at health, education and use of public services; it went to the nth degree and looked at traffic congestion and every conceivable indirect cost. It concluded that the annual net benefit to our city’s economy is £120 million. That is worth about 6,000 much-needed jobs in the city, not just in universities but in restaurants, shops, transport, construction and more besides.
The Government have damaged our ability to recruit by including international students in net migration targets. That is not a statistical argument but a fundamental point because in doing so, they have put international students at the heart of the immigration debate. It is no good saying, as the Minister might later and the Home Office did this week in its response to the report by the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, that there is no cap on student numbers—[Interruption.] The Minister says from a sedentary position that there is not, but if the Government have a target for reducing immigration and they include international students in that, such a policy leads them to celebrate cutting the number of international students coming to the UK. Indeed, the Minister did just that a couple of weeks ago when the fall in net migration was announced by celebrating the drop in numbers of 56,000 international students year on year.
The Minister will point out that within those figures the number of university visas rose slightly while the real fall was in private college and further education student numbers, but that in itself should be a cause for worry not celebration. Not only are those students valuable in themselves, those courses are pathways into higher education and a fall in numbers is an indication of the problems we are storing up for the future. Conservative estimates suggest that some 40% of students going to universities in the UK go through those routes, and we should worry about that future impact.
On other occasions, the Government have argued that numbers are holding up, but as my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) clearly pointed out, holding up is not good enough. We do not want to stand still in a growing market, which the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills recognised will double by 2025. That is another £8 billion in export earnings for the UK and another 6,000 jobs in Sheffield, yet the Home Office is frustrating that ambition.
The hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) mentioned Brazil—one of the fastest growing economies in the world. Under their Science Without Borders programme, the Brazilian Government are spending $2 billion over four years on sending 100,000 of their brightest young people to study abroad at undergraduate and postgraduate level. They want them to go to the best universities in the world, and those are in the UK.
A group of 2,143 Brazilian students who wanted to come to the UK have been prevented by inflexible visa rules. They are high-achieving students who wanted to study undergraduate STEM courses, but they needed to improve their English before starting. Current rules prevent them from staying in the UK after completing an English language course, and they would have had to return to Brazil and reapply for a new visa before starting their courses. As a result of those rules and the Home Office’s refusal to change them, 1,100 of those students are now going to the US and 600 to Australia, where they are welcome to study English and stay on for their degree course. Of the original 2,143 students, only 43 are applying to come to the UK this September. The value to the country of that cohort was £66 million. That has been lost because of Home Office inflexibility, and with it, considerable good will.
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
I am listening with great interest to the hon. Gentleman and I commend him for his work with my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi). He reminds me of a story in the Financial Times which, when describing the stupidity of the Home Office stated:
“If the Home Office were a horse it would have been shot by now.”
Despite the fact that the Home Office has been split up into an interior ministry and the Ministry of Justice, it still evinces extraordinary stupidity. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the most extraordinary aspects of that stupidity is that the STEM subjects, which this country needs so badly, in many universities across the country can be sustained in sufficient numbers only if we include foreign students?
Paul Blomfield
I absolutely agree with that point, which I raised earlier in passing. I commend the hon. Gentleman on initiating an Adjournment debate some time ago. I know he feels passionately about this subject, as many of us do.
To allow other hon. Members to contribute, I will draw my remarks to a close by making a couple of points. Including students in net migration targets distorts the policy debate on immigration and focuses on the migration that concerns nobody. More importantly, as has been said, it damages the opportunity for growth in one of our most important and successful industries. Five Select Committees of both Houses are agreed on the issue, and as we debate the matter, those in the other place are also considering it when discussing a report by one of its Select Committees. This is too important for the Home Office to dig its heels in, and I suspect that in his heart the Minister knows that. I urge him to go away from today’s debate, look again at the inclusion of students in our net migration targets, and send a clear message to the world that it is not just about what we say but about what we do, and that we are open for business.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
I pay tribute to all three previous speakers, who have set out clearly the arguments relevant to this debate, and I particularly congratulate the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) on securing it.
Back in the autumn, in his speech to the Conservative party conference, the Prime Minister set out an overall mission for the Government, to ensure that this country can win in the global race in which we are engaged. I strongly support that message and have a lot of time for it. We as politicians are sometimes guilty of telling people what they want to hear, but this is actually quite an uncomfortable message because in reality, the world in which we live is not easy and Britain has to earn its living within it.
As well as congratulating the three Members who have spoken so far, I express sympathy for the Minister, for whom I have a high regard. It is his job to balance the Government’s overall mission with what the hon. Member for West Bromwich West acknowledged is our clear task of addressing the public’s concern about levels of migration into this country in recent years—not an easy thing to do. When my constituents communicate with me they sometimes seem to think that the challenges we face are easy to resolve, but the reality of politics is that a lot of these issues are difficult and sometimes point us in conflicting directions. There is also a fundamental conflict between the need in electoral politics for simplicity of message when trying to communicate what our party would do in government, and the complexity of the issues we need to deal with—that point was alluded to in some of the earlier speeches.
Let me say a little about what my constituents think about immigration, which I think is relevant to the debate. I represent a part of south London that is changing rapidly demographically, and it will not be long before no ethnic community is in a majority in the London borough of Croydon, nor will it ever be again. Migration is an issue of real concern to my constituents, particularly because the UK Border Agency has a significant presence in Croydon in Lunar house. Many of my constituents have recently been through the asylum or immigration processes, and I have several thousand constituents who worked for the two units into which the agency has been broken. A lot of my constituents are concerned about the pace of change, and I spend a lot of time talking to them on the doorstep about those concerns. However, I have never heard a constituent express to me a concern about bright people from around the world coming to study at our universities, or about international companies that want to invest in the UK and create businesses, bringing some of their managers and employees to the UK as part of that investment into our economy.
However, I hear a lot of concern about low-skill migration into the EU, which many of my constituents believe—rightly or wrongly—has made it more difficult for them or their children to get work and has depressed wages in sectors of our economy. There is a great deal of concern about unlimited migration from within the EU, and the effect of allowing into the EU countries from eastern Europe, which I strongly support—the concern is about the principle of free movement when the EU incorporates a series of states that are at different levels economically.
There is also huge concern about our failure to control our borders effectively. When I report to my constituents on the Government’s progress in reducing net migration, they are almost universally inclined not to believe the figures, because their perception is that the figures do not include people who are here illegally. On migration policy, therefore, I am most keen for the Government to take more action than they are taking to deal with people who are in this country who should not be here.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The hon. Lady has just walked into the Chamber. Normally Members would give it a little bit longer before they intervene. On this occasion she can do so, if Mr Barwell wants to give way.
Nicola Blackwood
I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker. You are very kind, as is my hon. Friend.
Does my hon. Friend agree that the introduction of exit checks could be important? In that way, we would know not only how many people are coming into the country, but how many people are going out. One of our biggest problems in developing immigration policy is poor data.
Gavin Barwell
That is something we could consider. The key is building public confidence in the system.
Gavin Barwell
If I can make progress, I will come back to the hon. Gentleman.
I will not go into too much detail on students because the previous hon. Members who made speeches set the situation out clearly, but the UK gains four clear benefits from international students, the first of which is economic. We have heard the figures for the UK as a whole, but the Mayor of London’s office tells me that the economic benefit to London, my city, is about £2.5 billion a year.
The second benefit is to the experience of our students when they are at university. I was lucky enough to attend the university of Cambridge, and can attest to the benefit I gained from studying with pupils from around the world.
The third benefit, which my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) strongly communicated, is to what is frequently referred to as the UK’s soft power. A 2011 Select Committee on Home Affairs report identified that 27 foreign Heads of State had been educated in the UK. That is a difficult benefit to quantify, but an important one to this country.
Gavin Barwell
It does include Syria—clearly, educating Heads of State will not be a benefit universally, but the hon. Gentleman would agree that, in general, having people in leading positions in foreign countries, whether in Governments, the diplomatic service, the military or the business community, is a benefit to the UK.
Gavin Barwell
I will take one more intervention because I am conscious that other hon. Members wish to speak.
Mr Cunningham
No one would disagree with a number of the hon. Gentleman’s points. For the record, I have always had straight dealings with the Minister in relation to cases I have pursued. Would it not be better if students from abroad were excluded from the immigration numbers? On restoring the manufacturing base, companies in the west midlands such as Jaguar Land Rover will need more and more highly skilled people, whether from abroad or from within. German companies such as Bosch and a large number of universities are in Coventry and the west midlands. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that a better approach would be to exclude students from abroad from our figures to help our exports?
Gavin Barwell
The hon. Gentleman finished his intervention just before the bell, I believe, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Gavin Barwell
I will come to the hon. Gentleman’s substantive point at the end of my speech, but on his point on skills, when there are skill needs in our economy, our starting point should be to ask, “Can we train people in this country who have not got work to do those jobs?” However, if there are high-skill gaps, we should of course bring people in if we need them.
The fourth benefit of such migration, which has not been mentioned much, is the contribution to UK science and technology. I studied natural science at Cambridge and was on the Select Committee on Science and Technology for a period, so I feel passionately about this. Some 49% of people on taught postgraduate course in maths, engineering or computer science are international students—that figure has been mentioned. Cutting down on those numbers would have a massive effect on UK leadership in science. Sir Andre Geim, the Russian-born Nobel prize winner from the university of Manchester, has said that the identification of graphene would
“probably not have happened if”
he
“had been unable to employ great non-EU PhD postdoctoral students”.
Those are the four clear benefits, but there are problems. The Higher Education Statistics Agency provides figures for enrolments, not for visa applications—enrolments are the best measure. In 2011, there was a slight decline in applications for first-year places at university from non-EU applicants. Admittedly, the position is complex, with significant country variations—there was a big increase in applications from China, but a big decrease in applications from India. I should be grateful if the Minister would offer an explanation for those significant variations if he has time. Students from different parts of the world tend to apply for different courses. Indian students are more likely to apply for STEM courses, so those variations have an impact on universities. In 2012, for the first time in 10 years, the total number of non-EU postgraduate students fell.
The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) correctly identified the three issues we need to address, the first of which is bureaucracy and the process people must go through when they want to come here. I pay tribute to the Minister and the Home Secretary, because the decision to split the UKBA up into two organisations—one focuses on customer satisfaction and processing applications for people who want to come here, and the other focuses on the entirely different job of enforcement and removing people who should not be here—was the right decision, and a welcome one. However, there is more to do to improve the process and the experience people have when they apply.
The second issue is the tone and the message we send out in debates on migration—that is not totally within the Government’s control, because we must also consider the tone of the migration debate in our media. The Government have recognised the importance of sending the message that the UK is open for business, as we saw during the Prime Minister’s recent visit to India.
The third issue is policy. We have a target for reducing net migration and should ask who is included in it. One hon. Member has mentioned the Migration Advisory Committee, which has said that an equivalent reduction in all different forms of migration could reduce student migration by 87,000. I put it to the Minister that, in 2009-10, the National Audit Office identified that about 50,000 students looked as if their principal reason for coming here was work rather than study. All hon. Members would accept that there was significant abuse of the process. That happened through institutions— bogus colleges—but we all see what we might regard as serial students, meaning people who have come here and done a number of courses but still not reached undergraduate level. Clearly, their primary motivation for coming to this country is to work in the UK, whatever their visa application says. All hon. Members accept that there was potential to reduce the numbers without having an impact on the positive aspects we have discussed.
On the long-term situation, the House has made its view clear on the policy, but I am interested in what the Conservative party will say in its next manifesto. As hon. Members have said, the sector has the potential nearly to double by 2020. At the moment, about 4.1 million around the world study in tertiary education abroad. The projection is that that will go up to 7 million by 2020. We should at least set ourselves the objective of maintaining our market share, which is currently about 13%. We have done the job of squeezing down on student migration abuse, but if our objective is to maintain or grow our market share and continue to recruit the people we want in this country, it will creep up over time.
I support what my party had to say at the previous election. It was absolutely right to focus on this, and I think many Opposition Members recognise that. In the longer term, we need to think more clearly about how we differentiate to the public the kinds of immigration that we are looking to control—the bits that we do not think are good for the country and want to squeeze down on, both illegal immigration and immigration through the existing system. We should not get ourselves into a position where we are trying to control things that we all recognise are positive and good for the country. I wish the Minister, for whom I have a very high regard, the best of luck as he grapples with the difficult balance that has to be struck between ensuring that we win the global race, but address the legitimate concerns many of my constituents have about the level of immigration.
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
I would like to join in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and other colleagues on securing this important debate. He made some important points, as have all the subsequent speakers. It is good to see cross-party agreement emerging that we have to remove students from the immigration target in domestic policy.
With two universities and numerous independent colleges in Oxford East, my constituents are among the hardest hit by the ill-judged policies on student visas and immigration that the Government have brought in. They have inflicted serious damage on the reputation and attractiveness of the UK, and on the economic and cultural contribution that overseas students, and those who teach them, make to our country. The Government’s policies amount to a perverse and stupid act of economic self-sabotage. They hit a part of our economy where Britain in general, and Oxford in particular, have a strong global strategic competitive advantage. There is a logical contradiction in the Government protesting that there is no cap on student numbers, while persisting in including student numbers in their overall target of reducing net immigration to tens rather than hundreds of thousands. They find it so difficult to control other areas of immigration, including illegal immigration, that there is continual downward pressure on student numbers.
We are fortunate in Oxford to have many high-quality institutions. It shows how ludicrous this policy is if we imagine it being applied to another area; for example, to our Mini plant—to manufacturing, as opposed to educational exports. Imagine a Government who have an overall limit on manufacturing exports because they do not want too many foreigners getting their hands on our goods. As the number of BMW Minis being exported falls because overseas dealers worry that they will not be able to fulfil orders, the Prime Minister flies out to the far east and attempts to reassure people that while he is determined to bring down net manufacturing exports, there is no cap on the export of Minis! Such a policy would be barmy, way beyond swivel-eyed, and yet economically that is exactly what the cuts in overseas students amount to.
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. Does he agree that it is simply no good for the Prime Minister to be going on these visits overseas supposedly to increase our exports when one of our very best exports, higher education, is being undermined by the Government’s policy?
Jackie Doyle-Price
It is my understanding that applications from overseas students to Oxford university have gone up by 22%. Is the right hon. Gentleman not mis-characterising the objective of the policy, which is to cut down on bogus student applications while still allowing our higher education sector to thrive?
Mr Smith
The problem is that not enough is being done to encourage it to thrive. As was pointed out earlier, Universities UK takes issue with some of the figures, but however we characterise them the current position is pretty flat. For a global market that is expanding so quickly, it simply is not good enough.
Of course the closure of visa factories masquerading as colleges is a good thing, not least because of the impact on applicants, as my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) pointed out. They damage the reputation of UK education as well as undermine legitimate immigration control, but it is important to understand that the way the Government and UKBA have gone about their wider changes have hit legitimate universities and colleges that are an enormously important source of intellectual capital, jobs and prosperity, both now and for the future, that is worth tens of billions of pounds.
The hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) mentioned Oxford university. Its briefing for this debate points out:
“The cumulative and frequent changes to Tier 4 policy guidance over the last few years have created increased anxiety amongst our current and prospective student body especially when some of the rule changes were applied retrospectively.”
It goes on to say:
“We have received feedback and comments from prospective students and institutions overseas about the numerous UKBA rule changes over the last few years that indicate it may be a determining factor in students choosing to study elsewhere.”
The Government have to understand that those damaging effects have an impact at a time of intense international competition, in particular for the highest calibre of undergraduates, post-graduates and researchers. The funding shortfall for postgraduates, especially compared with the United States, makes it an increasing challenge to recruit and retain the best. Oxford university makes it clear that it supports the recommendations of the Select Committee reports referred to in the motion.
Let us also recognise that the damaging impact of Government policy has not been confined to universities and university students. Indeed, the effects have been even more serious for independent colleges, whose educational and economic contribution rarely gets the credit it deserves, and seems to be totally ignored by this Government. It is deeply ironic that a Government with an ideological obsession about liberating schools for home students from state control are hammering private colleges that support thousands of jobs and billions of pounds of overseas earnings.
Nicola Blackwood
As a fellow Oxford MP, the right hon. Gentleman will know that I share some of his concerns about student reforms, but it is important that the debate continues with factual information. The 22% figure quoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) is based on data from the Higher Education Statistics Agency, and is used in both the Universities UK and Million+ briefings. The points that he was just making are important, because the falls we have seen are in the FE college and private college sectors. The main concerns from the university have been about the frequent changes to student visas, which are much more of a difficulty for both students and the university. Perhaps he might like to comment on those issues, as they are the main challenges that are actually faced by the university’s students.
Mr Smith
I will take those comments as warm and strong support for the points I have made about the damage the changes to the visa regime have done.
The Government are denying independent colleges a level playing field and disadvantaging them in a number of respects. These include: the 2011 two-year cap on international student numbers; all the uncertainties of the twice-yearly Highly Trusted Sponsor renewal application; the denial of part-time work for students either in term time or holidays; student exclusion from the new post-study work schemes for PhD and MBA graduates; and the fact that unlike university students, PhD students at independent colleges are not exempt from Tier 4’s five-year time limit, so they cannot do a first degree in the UK before their PhD.
It is little surprising that international student enrolments on higher education courses at independent colleges fell by over 70% between 2011 and 2012, with a fall of 46% in college sector visas for the year ending March 2013. This has destroyed tens—possibly hundreds—of college businesses, cost thousands of jobs and resulted in a loss of income to the families accommodating students and to the local businesses and communities within which they spend their money.
I strongly support the motion. I hope that the Government will listen to the Select Committees that have come to the same view and take international students out of the migrations statistics used to steer UK immigration policy. I hope that Ministers will remove the unfair penalties imposed on independent colleges, work in partnership with them to develop longer-term, highly trusted accreditation and promote the contribution these colleges make. I also urge them more generally to think further and positively about how to encourage, not discourage, overseas students at all levels who want to come here, as those students invigorate universities and other education institutions and generate lots of overseas earnings, jobs and economic demand, which people here desperately need. Doing so would rebuild Britain’s reputation in the world as somewhere that welcomes international students and researchers and recognises their enormous potential contribution to our culture and economy—which, let us remember, is to the benefit of us all.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
In the media, international students at our universities are generally seen though one of two lenses: the positive one is that they are a cash-cow, premium product that historically has cross-subsidised domestic students in our universities; the negative one is that, because of this, they might end up getting too many places at our universities, thus keeping out some of our home-grown talent. Both are completely the wrong way of thinking about international students. This is a huge growth market in the world and vital to our economic growth.
Education ought to be for us a focus sector, alongside life sciences, advanced manufacturing, the digital and creative industries, professional services and tourism. It is also a market in which, thankfully, we have strong competitive advantages. We have some of the best brand names in the business: Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, St Andrews, Birmingham, Manchester, Queen’s Belfast, the London School of Economics—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] I can name check others, if anyone wants me to.
Damian Hinds
Thank you.
All in all, about one fifth of the top 100 universities and about one fifth of the top 50 business schools in the world are ours, and of course we have that great asset, the English language.
The sector has other advantages. The first and most obvious is export earnings and the jobs it supports in this country, but it is also important in the battle for talent, in bringing into the country the people we need to help our economy succeed. It also helps with what people have called soft power—or, as I would prefer to describe it, the promotion of Britain abroad and the fostering of business and cultural links throughout the world.
The sector has several secondary advantages. For one, unusually among the key growth sectors, its employment and economic growth prospects are well distributed throughout the UK, not concentrated in one place, such as London. Secondly, university rankings depend on having a certain proportion of foreign students at a university, because international rankings consider that if a university is not good enough to attract foreign students, it is probably not very good. Thirdly, having a vibrant, cosmopolitan HE sector helps to reinforce several other growth strategy objectives, particularly to bring forward research and development in key sectors and to make this country the headquarters location of choice for multinationals.
As many hon. Members have said, this is a growing world market. In 1980, about 1 million students were enrolled in institutions outside their country of origin, but by 2010 that figure was 3.3 million. We know that more recently the compound annual growth rate trend—obviously it has moved a bit in the last couple of years—has been about 7%, which is a strong growth rate for an attractive industry. According to the McKinsey report on the seven long-term priorities for the UK, if we can hold our share—grow it as the market grows—and harvest just half of the benefit, it would be worth an additional 80,000 jobs in the country by 2030.
Roberta Blackman-Woods
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that holding that share is becoming more difficult, because of the challenge from countries such as Australia and Canada, and that the Government should be strengthening our universities’ ability to attract overseas students, not making it more difficult, as they are doing at present?
Damian Hinds
The hon. Lady brilliantly anticipates my next point. Of course, she is absolutely correct. As my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) said, we are, to coin a phrase, in a global race, and we are not the only ones who have spotted that this is an attractive sector and who are doing things differently, as we will continue to do in order to protect and grow our own share. The most obvious competitive set are the Anglophone countries, led by the United States, but including Canada and Australia. Increasingly, however, non-English speaking countries are offering English-speaking courses. The third competitor is potentially the biggest, and that is the choice of staying at home. In China, India, Nigeria and elsewhere in the world, there is a big business opportunity in attracting students from those countries to stay in institutions there. So, yes, we have to redouble our efforts all the time in order not only to forge ahead, but just to hold our own.
We should be talking always about quality higher education, pre-higher education preparation and certified colleges. These institutions should not be selling visas; they must be selling education, and we know that there have been recent substantial abuses. The National Audit Office says that in 2009 up to 50,000 alleged students were here primarily to work, rather than study. We had this cadre of serial students who were forever renewing their visas without showing any substantial progress in their studies. Clearly, if we are serious about curbing immigration in what has become a chaotic situation and about reducing the numbers and getting rid of abuse, we have to tackle the student visa route.
Jackie Doyle-Price
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the abuses under the old system, but there are two sides to tackling the problem—tightening up the rules for people coming in, and removing those abusing the system—but the NAO concluded that not enough was being done in the latter department. Does he agree that the Government need to make that more of a priority?
Damian Hinds
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. It must indeed be a clear priority.
I welcome the action that the Government have taken. I do not think that everyone would agree, but I welcome the removal of the blanket two-year right to work for all graduates, because it looked a bit too much like a bribe to sweeten the degree. There is a role for it, however, in certain circumstances and categories, such as in subjects where there is a shortage—we talked about STEM subjects earlier—and for MBA students, who, by definition, will already have worked for several years and have done their first degree and who are valuable and mobile students.
I welcome the removal of the right to work for private college students, the requirement to show real academic progress and, of course, the closure of bogus colleges. I also acknowledge that the Government have put in place a sensible and proportionate regime for student visitors. A lot of people have thrown statistics around, but overall it appears that the falls in the numbers have been concentrated primarily in those sectors and parts of the market where abuse was most prevalent. I also welcome the fact that there is no cap on the numbers of people coming to university. It is right that the Prime Minister goes out and gives that message, as we saw him doing recently at the KPMG offices—I think—in India, but it is a constant battle against possible perceptions. For example, the message on MBA student blogs in India is that Britain is not as welcoming a place—or not welcoming at all—as it once was.
Nicola Blackwood
Does my hon. Friend agree that one reason for that ongoing perception might be the efficiency, or lack thereof, of in-country UK Border Agency officials? With the expansion of credibility interviews, that will only increase. Some of the reports that I have heard about the reasons for people being turned down at interview—those where the decision was later overturned at appeal—are concerning. Does he agree that if we are to increase the caution with which we agree to visa applications, we should also increase the efficiency of UKBA in-country?
Damian Hinds
As always, my hon. Friend makes her point clearly and well. I do not have enough knowledge about the interview to comment, but overall, with or without a cap, and whatever happened last year or this year—we know that there is no cap, and we know that the figures look broadly okay—it nevertheless remains the case that, given the intense scrutiny to which immigration numbers will rightly be subjected, how students are treated in those statistics must inevitably affect the extent to which we as a country seize this market opportunity in the years ahead.
In one way it is blindingly obvious, but it is worth saying that not every student adds to immigration. In the steady state, so long as we are reasonably good at counting people leaving as well as those coming—
Damian Hinds
We took over from Labour.
So long as we are reasonably good at that, it is only growth in the numbers that will add to immigration. However, I would ask the Minister to look again and consider counting people towards net immigration only at the point at which they settle. The key counter-argument—in some ways it is quite strong—is that a student is a human being like any other, and if there is a net increase in their numbers, that is an increase in net immigration, which will lead to the same strain on housing, public services and so on as with any other type of immigration. I would argue that that is not quite true. I do not want to sound trivial about it, but one could argue, with some sense, that students do not take up quite as much residential living space as others and, being younger on average, they are—[Interruption.] I do not mean that students are smaller. I myself was thinner as an undergraduate—that is history—but I was thinking more about housing. As younger people, typically, students are probably less likely than the average person to make demands on the national health service, places at primary schools and so on.
Chris Bryant
It is an absolute pre-condition of any student visa that that person is unable to make any claims on the taxpayer or, therefore, the NHS.
Damian Hinds
I am conscious of the time and I do not want to get into a long debate about this, but any person in this country will be consuming public services to some extent—for example, roads—and is financed by the rest of us. In any case, broadly speaking we are making the same points.
We could also mitigate those effects. Given that housing is a particular issue, we could do that by requiring universities that want to expand to provide additional accommodation. Local areas that want to benefit from such economic growth should also have to be willing to accept the provision of extra accommodation, over and above residential housing.
The truth is that there are downsides—additional strains and calls on public resources and residential accommodation—to having more people in the country. It is not without cost; it is a choice to be made. We have to weigh up the costs and downsides against the benefits that so many people have talked about—the revenues, the export earnings, the jobs that are created, the talent we can bring to this country and the strengthening of our links around the world. If, having made that calculation, we decide that this should be a focus area in contributing to our economic growth—I think the case is very strong —we must be bold in seizing that opportunity.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) on opening this important debate, and I congratulate him and others on securing it.
The wording of the motion says it all. Five parliamentary Committees—the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, the Select Committee on Home Affairs and the Public Accounts Committee in the Commons, as well as the Science and Technology Committee and the EU Sub-Committee on Home Affairs, Health and Education in the other place—have all arrived at the same conclusion and the same recommendation. They are united in their belief—it is a considered belief, based on the vast amount of evidence they have taken—that including students in net migration numbers is the wrong thing to do, for a number of reasons, and that the Government should reverse that decision. The reason for that belief is obvious. The students we are talking about are not migrant workers. They have paid to come to the UK to study. They have chosen to invest in the UK and are sponsored to remain only for the period of their studies.
I speak as an MP for a constituency that benefits from the positive contribution that overseas students can make to university life and the wider community. According to the University of Sunderland’s annual review, more than 2,600 overseas students were enrolled in taught undergraduate or postgraduate courses last year. What does that mean for the university and the wider city? Those students are paying their fees, which are crucial to the university as a means of investing in the facilities and opportunities they can provide to all students, particularly as grants are repeatedly cut, but there are wider benefits too. Those students need places to live and therefore pay rent to local private landlords, usually through local letting agents. Those students need to eat and therefore spend money in local shops and restaurants. They probably need coats and gloves—they have probably also needed wellies over the last couple of years—to deal with the harsh north-east weather, and they will obviously buy those in local shops. Those students will also want to have a good time, as do students the world over, spending money in local cinemas, bars and clubs, and going to gigs, football matches and so on. They might even need books and stationery, which they will buy from local bookshops and stationers.
According to evidence that the university submitted to the Home Affairs Committee when it considered this issue in 2011, overseas students bring an income to the university of £15 million in tuition fees and £1.5 million in accommodation fees. The university estimated the additional income to the city to be around £10 million a year. That figure is probably a conservative estimate, given that it amounts to only £385 a month or so for each student, and we know that many international students who come to the UK are from pretty wealthy families—after all, how else would they afford the large up-front fees that they have to pay? That is probably reflected in the revised estimate that I recently received from the university, of £37 million of total benefit.
When international students come to the University of Sunderland, they do not just bring their wallets; they bring a wealth of culture, which adds to the diversity of the university’s campus. That can be seen in the development of the various student societies—they include the Hong Kong and Malaysian society, the Nigerian society, and the middle east and north Africa group, to name but a few—but it is a two-way street. The university encourages international students to experience the culture that the north-east has to offer, such as Washington old hall in my constituency, which has an obvious attraction for students from the United States, and the various other cultural and historical activities that the city of Sunderland and the whole region have to offer.
Roberta Blackman-Woods
My hon. Friend is making an important point about students in the north-east adding to diversity—a diversity that would not necessarily exist without them. Figures from the Higher Education Statistics Agency show that the number of new entrants—particularly new international student entrants—is reducing. Does she agree that the Government are being a bit complacent and are not factoring in the positive contributions that students make to areas such as ours?
Mrs Hodgson
That is exactly the nub of the matter. We have to factor in those extra elements, including the contribution that such students make to the local economy, as well as—I will come to this point—the long-term benefits from those relationships and links in the years to come.
Another great project at Sunderland university is the international buddying programme, in which students at the university pair up with international students to provide them with advice on what they can experience in the region. The programme enriches the experiences not only of the international students but of their buddies from this country. When the students are visiting regional tourist attractions such as Washington old hall or Durham cathedral, they inevitably spend money in the local and regional economy.
I understand that some programmes run by the student union have involved international students volunteering with local community organisations such as Age UK. This all contributes to giving students a great experience while they are over here, which means that they will develop an affinity with the UK, and with the city and region in which they stay. We have to remember that many of these students come from well-connected families, and that among them will be the political leaders and captains of industry of tomorrow. It is therefore crucial to our long-term diplomatic and economic relationships with their home countries that we warmly welcome these young people, rather than making them feel unwanted, as this Government are undoubtedly doing at the moment.
That is particularly important in the north-east, where international links and trade and exports are fundamental parts of the economy. The independent “North-east Economic Review” recently commissioned by the local enterprise partnership and authored by my noble colleague Lord Adonis reported that the north-east is one of the leading exporting areas of the UK, with over 1,500 companies exporting goods. In 2011 and 2012, it was the only region in England to achieve a positive balance of trade in goods, with figures of £2.5 billion in 2011 and £4.8 billion in 2012. So we do well, but we are reliant in many ways on orders and investment from overseas companies. The role that our universities play in keeping and creating those relationships is crucial.
One country that often comes up when we talk about the need to get more people over to the UK is China. The University of Sunderland works hard to attract Chinese students, as do other higher education institutions. I was lucky enough to visit China in September 2011. I visited the offices of the University of Sunderland in Beijing, where I was able to talk to the local staff there about the work they do. Their biggest concerns by far were the new visa requirements, coupled with the way in which some Chinese students they had recruited were treated at customs when they arrived here in the UK.
Both those factors are a source of humiliation to students. What will happen when word gets out that the UK does not want them and that it will put them through that kind of experience? Students who would have come to the UK, and who might well have come to Sunderland, will go elsewhere in the world. They want to learn and develop their English, and they will go to the USA, Australia, New Zealand or Canada, all of which exclude students from their migrant figures and are currently welcoming them with open arms. Those countries are benefiting from our loss.
While I was in China I also visited Suzhou, where the University of Liverpool has established a joint campus with a local university, with the aim of providing opportunities for UK students to visit an economically and culturally significant area of China as well as providing a form of embassy or advert for its UK institution. I met a young man from Suzhou who had been studying computer science at Liverpool and is now doing his postgraduate qualification at University College London. That shows that the process definitely works. The development of more such partnerships and recruitment drives in a country with which we desperately need to build links is surely at risk, given the way in which this Government’s attitude towards overseas students is now seen in that country, and undoubtedly in others.
The University of Sunderland posed two questions to me, which I believe cut to the heart of this debate. I would be grateful if the Minister could address them in his response—if indeed he is listening to what I am saying. First, can the Government meet their net migration targets without reducing the number of international students coming to study at British universities? My suspicion is that they probably cannot, and are therefore knowingly and willingly accepting the devastating economic impact that this policy will have on localities and regions, particularly those with a track record of success in global enterprise.
Secondly, what is more important to this Government: economic growth and sustainability or a falsely painted picture of immigration and immigrants that includes those who choose to come and invest in the UK and bring substantial short and long-term economic and social advantage to our country? I am sure the Minister will say that it is the former, but actions speak louder than words, and the actions of this Government firmly suggest that their priority is political headlines, rather than what is right for our higher education sector and for the country.
Of course we must tackle bogus colleges and bogus students. Everyone agrees on that. I am afraid, however, that such action is being used as a smokescreen to justify this damaging and short-sighted policy. Well, the Government are fooling nobody. We all know that this is about using overseas students to reduce the net migration figures in order to fulfil a promise made by the Prime Minister that he would otherwise be unable to fulfil. That is a disgrace, and it must stop. I hope that this debate will spur a change in policy and a more grown-up and thought-through approach. This Government are well-practised in the art of the U-turn, and I hope that we will see one being performed on this issue sooner rather than later, before too much more damage is done to our universities and our international reputation.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I am pleased that we are having this debate, as it will enable us to draw attention to a number of issues relating to overseas students in this country. We should start from the premise that the students who come here to study and work are a big help to our economy, to local economies and to the experience of UK students in our higher education institutions.
London First, in calling for the removal of students from the UK migration target, states:
“Taking students out of the migration target would be the strongest positive message that the government could send out but, if this remains too politically difficult, then a more measured and consistent approach to addressing applications for visas would be a good first step.”
Many of us have met students in other countries who are considering coming to the UK to study, and discovered that they are put off by a number of factors. One is the complication and cost of applying for a visa, as well as the delays that often occur in that process. I know that the Minister is aware of those problems, and I look forward to hearing his response to this point. Those students are also put off by the image that has been created by the treatment of overseas students here.
I am not going to defend the bogus colleges that purported to teach the English language to people in London and other cities. They often short-changed their students, many of whom ended up as victims of a particularly nasty system. It is right to prosecute those who were perpetrating that fraud against those students, but we should have more sympathy with those genuine students who came here thinking that they were going to be taught English only to find that their college was a sham. They lost out, and some of them were deported even though they had done nothing wrong. Behind every statistic lies a human story, and we should look at the human story as well as the overall statistics when we deal with these issues.
The National Union of Students has pointed out in its advice on this debate that, following a perception study, 40% of respondents to an NUS survey of 909 international students carried out last year said that they would not advise a friend or relative from their home country to come to the UK to study. We cannot afford that perception to be spread abroad. This debate is therefore important, and the Minister’s response to it and the way in which he handles this issue are possibly even more important. It we want to remain a place to which students want to come, we will have to ensure that they are treated properly and that they are allowed to work at the end of their course, particularly if they pursued a semi-vocational or professional qualification. If they cannot complete a period of work at the end of their course, the prospect of studying here will be less attractive and the prospect of studying elsewhere will become more so. The UK loses out as a result.
As I said in a couple of interventions, I represent a constituency that includes London Metropolitan university, which has been put through the mill in media treatment and with funding problems like no other university in this country, so I would like to say a few things in its support. As a university, it is an amalgamation of many institutions, as most of them are, and it has given many people the huge opportunity to become the first in their family history to get into higher education. It has an unprecedented record of bringing in students from minority ethic communities and diverse backgrounds, and it should be applauded and complimented for that.
Although the name is relatively new, London Metropolitan university is an amalgamation of a number of local institutions in north-east London that started serving the community in 1848. It is not exactly a Johnny-come-lately, although of course the situation has changed a great deal. Two things have happened. First, the Higher Education Funding Council for England decided some years ago to fine the university a great deal of money, but after a lot of representations, that money is now being repaid and the university is coping with that.
Secondly, on 29 August last year, it had revoked its tier 4 licence and highly trusted status required to recruit non-European Economic Area students. That placed 2,000 international students at risk, including the current student union president and members of the student union executive. A survey done by the United Kingdom Border Agency claimed that there was a lack of attendance and monitoring, insufficient English language testing and overstaying of student visas. The students concerned were told that they had 60 days to find another institution or they would have to return to their own country. That resulted in a great deal of debate, including an urgent question in this Chamber and statements from the Government. The university sought High Court action against UKBA and was granted a hearing last September, when Mr Justice Irwin granted an order allowing all current international students to stay at the university until the end of the academic year 2013; judicial reviews are still continuing.
Since then, there has been a great deal of discussion and negotiation between UKBA and the university, and procedures have been put in place. My concern was that a lot of wholly innocent international students were put under a great deal of stress and pressure. The university was not allowed to recruit international students for the forthcoming academic year, and that obviously has an impact on the local economy and on the university itself. I hope that the Minister can provide us with some hope—if not here today, perhaps by correspondence—that the negotiations will result in the revocation of the original ban on recruitment and that a number of overseas students can be recruited in the forthcoming academic year.
I would be grateful if the Minister would answer some brief questions. A number of students who transferred to other institutions last September—nine months ago—still await a decision on their visa applications even though they were submitted in good time. Two additional cases, where students who completed their studies in February 2013 and put in applications for visa extensions, are still pending and have not been answered. That is a very long time to wait. In addition, there are many students who are no longer in contact with the London Met university, yet the Home Office was supposed to establish a casework team in Sheffield to deal with applications from both current and former students of London Met. I would be grateful if the Minister would explain exactly what has happened about that; is the Home Office still in touch with those students?
I want London Met to be a successful university. I want it to be able to recruit international students as it did before, and I want those students to benefit from the experience of living in north and east London while they are studying there. I also want to highlight all that they bring to the university and all that they—and, indeed, the local economy—gain from it. The damage done to the international reputation of higher education by the handling of London Met is pretty serious indeed, on top of all the other problems that the Select Committee has rightly pointed out. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell me how many students have actually been removed from the country as a result of the decisions concerning London Met.
The Home Office uses the words “probationary licence granted” for the restoration of tier 4 status, but there is nothing in legislation that talks about probationary licences. An institution either has tier 4 status grade A or a most-trusted status, which we obviously hope will be restored. I do not know where the word “probationary” comes from. Is a new point of law being introduced?
Finally, will the Minister provide assurances that the 20 London Met students who submitted passports nine months ago and who now wish to leave the country will receive an answer in the next 28 days? In all fairness, those students spent a great deal of money coming to this country, many of them are from poor families who scrimped and saved to send them here, and they had to go through a dreadful experience. We want to move on. We want international students back at the university and the university to be thriving and providing good-quality education. That is the message I want to give. Our local community benefits from that university, and it frequently benefits from the community when community events and many other things are held there. We want it to be a good place of learning. Every colleague who represents a constituency with a university or a higher education institution in it wants that for those institutions. It is up to the Minister to ensure that we continue to recruit overseas students and that they benefit from their learning experience in this country.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Let me first pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and all other Members who signed up to ensure that we had this afternoon’s debate. It is perhaps a sort of irony that the quality of the debate has been high, with an enormous degree of unanimity on the issues. I suspect that if the Chamber had been fuller, the debate might have been more partisan and there might have been less unanimity, but the debate we have had is a tribute to the way in which the argument has been advanced in several Select Committees and through the Select Committee process itself. Sometimes if we just look rationally at the facts, it is easier to reach a cross-party position.
I studied abroad. I did part of my primary education in Spain; I studied theology at the Instituto Superior Evangélico de Estudios Teológicos in Argentina; so I understand the complications and difficulties of studying in other countries. I note that the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), of whom I am particularly fond, referred to Erasmus, talking about what has happened since Erasmus came here in the 16th century. It is interesting, because when Erasmus first came here to study at Cambridge university in 1506, he did not complete a whole year so I do not think he would have been included in the net migration target. When he came again, in 1511, staying until 1515, he taught as the Lady Margaret Professor of Divinity at Cambridge university. In that case, he would have come here under the tier 2 visa, which would have been completely different and not the subject of this afternoon’s debate.
Mr Andrew Smith
Does my hon. Friend think that the Home Office still has Erasmus’s passport?
Chris Bryant
That is a point well made.
Another hon. Member—I cannot remember who it was—referred to the fact that many Heads of State from around the world have studied in the United Kingdom. [Interruption.] It was the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), who speaks sanely and sensibly on many of these issues. As he said, some studied at Sandhurst, as many have been military leaders as well. It must surely be good, in terms of our soft power, that the Heads of State of Denmark, Portugal, Iceland, Norway, Turkey and many other countries have studied in the United Kingdom.
I would also point to those who have had a more courageous political career, such as Aung San Suu Kyi, and, for that matter, to the large number of people who have come to the United Kingdom, studied here, stayed on and ended up teaching here, gaining Nobel prizes in classic instances such as Sydney Brenner, César Milstein and Aaron Klug. Perhaps most interesting of all, T S Eliot, now thought of as the quintessentially British poet of the 20th century, was originally born in the United States of America, came to study here at the beginning of the first world war and ended up staying here for the rest of his life. Perhaps it was because he had the experience of being a migrant student that he ended up writing so much about travelling and the difficulty of living in other cultures.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman just mentioned Sandhurst, and I ask him not to forget the royal naval training college at Darmouth and the RAF training college at Cranwell, which I attended. During my flight officer training we often thought it was the Omani officer, with the overseas costs, who actually funded the training costs of the British RAF officer cadets.
Chris Bryant
Indeed, that is an important point. If we look at the number of people from Latin American militaries—air force, navy or army—who have historically had the Prussian tradition of military and then come to the UK to train in a British environment and completely changed their attitude towards democracy and the way in which the military operate in a democratic society, we see another positive aspect of people coming from other parts of the world to study here.
Many hon. Members have rightly referred to the economic benefit of international students coming to study in this country. The Government estimate in 2009, produced by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, was that this country’s higher education exports came to a value of some £8 billion and could rise to £16.9 billion by 2025. That is one of the most significant areas of growth potential in the economy. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) said, the University of Sheffield has produced an important report on the economic benefits that can arise from international students coming here. My hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) referred to the importance to the north-east of not only people studying and paying for their courses—many British people do not understand that international students pay fully for their course and, indeed, pay over the odds compared with British people, doing so in advance—but all the other benefits that come to the local economy. According to the University of Sheffield’s study, the relevant figure for Sheffield is £120 million a year.
In addition, we need to consider the wide range of subjects studied. Some people want to say, “It is just about the brightest and the best coming to the United Kingdom.” I wholly agree with those who have said that it was absolutely right for the Government to deal with issue of bogus colleges, but it is not just university degrees at Oxford and Cambridge that we should be concerned with; this is also about postgraduate studies at many different universities and the English language. I would prefer people who are learning English around the world to learn about taps, not faucets, and about pavements, not sidewalks, because I would prefer them to have a British understanding of the English language and get it from the horse’s mouth.
Many schools and universities have valued enormously exchange students coming to the United Kingdom, and they are important in relation to the shorter-term student visitor visa. There is not only an economic advantage to consider, but a social advantage, in terms of, the quality of the education students are able to get. If they are studying international politics or history and people come with completely different experiences from elsewhere in the world, that enlivens, informs and improves the quality of the education of British students in universities and colleges. Also, this is about ensuring that we provide the strongest possible opportunity for overseas students to develop their understanding of what it is like to be in Britain and to do business in Britain. We hope that they will then do greater business with us further in the future.
I would also point out that, as many hon. Members have said, this is an area of migration—if we want to term it as such—that is warmly welcomed and accepted by the British public. Leaving aside the matter of bogus colleges, where foreigners were exploited and not given a proper education, and British taxpayers were exploited because proper controls were not in place, it is warmly accepted in this country that international students are important for our economy. If we are to prosper in the future as a country that is in “a global race”, to use the Prime Minister’s term, we have to be able to compete for international students—for that market around the world.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that not only have we had bogus colleges, but quite a lot of colleges have provided relatively low-value courses, be they in business, accounting or IT, where the incentive of being able to work part-time, stay on to work afterwards, bring dependants and potentially stay on has been much of the reason why international students have stayed, and that the Government have been right to crack down on that?
Chris Bryant
I want to see more evidence of precisely what the hon. Gentleman mentions. I believe he has been in his Committee all afternoon, so I understand why he has not been able to take part in the whole of this debate, which is a shame. I merely wish to cite the Government’s own Home Office paper from this year, “The Migrant Journey”, which showed that just 1% of students who came here in 2006 were permanently residing here five years later. So those myths that have sometimes grown up of—[Interruption.] There are others who are still studying and who have gone on to study other courses, but according to the Home Office’s own report only 1% are permanently residing. Some of the myths that have been mentioned in previous debates about 20% or 30% of students staying on afterwards are misguided.
I wish briefly to discuss the Government’s record. The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) referred to the Higher Education Statistics Agency. Its figures showed, contrary to the figures often provided by the Government, that the number of first-year, non-EU, new-entrant students at universities was down by 0.4% in 2011-12. In particular, the number of postgraduate new entrants has gone down from 105,195 to 103,150, which is potentially a worrying trend that we need to examine for the future because it is the first time there has been a fall in those figures for a decade—in effect, for all the time that similar statistics have been available.
As several hon. Members said, the number of students coming from India has fallen by some 8,000. That number may have been made up for by the number coming from China, but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) said, it was a sign of the Government’s “forked-tonguedness” or two-facedness that the Prime Minister actually had to go to India to say that there is no cap on international students coming to the United Kingdom. There may not be a legal cap, but it certainly feels as if there is a cap, and the Government have to address that. As the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon said, if this is a growing market, we need to be holding our market share, and that means advancing and not stepping backwards. I would like us to increase our market share, because we have a unique and very valuable offer, and this would be good for the British economy. I worry that the way the Government’s immigration target is crafted has made that more difficult for us to achieve.
All the estimates show a significant fall in Britain’s attractiveness as a place for study, while Australia and Canada have seen dramatic improvements in their attractiveness. One Australian who works in this business told me recently, “I am delighted at what your Government are doing, because you are giving us lots of business.” That should really worry the Government.
I wish to raise one other minor point, which a number of hon. Members have mentioned and which relates to the number of overseas students who come to study degrees in science, technology, engineering and maths. That is the area in which we saw the most significant drop—8%—in 2011-12 in the number of non-EU new-entrant students coming to the UK. That must worry us, because it will affect our future competitiveness and productivity.
I now want to ask the Minister about London Metropolitan university. On 3 September 2012, while responding to an urgent question from my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), the right hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green)— the Minister’s predecessor—said that more than 60% of students at London Met were involved in the “problems” of dubious education and were not proper students. He added:
“It was not a small, isolated number of students; the sampling showed significant systemic problems throughout.”—[Official Report, 3 September 2012; Vol. 549, c. 26.]
I should have thought that if that had been the case, a significant number of people would have been removed from the country.
That one bovver-booted intervention, made at a time of the year—the autumn—when many people were coming to study in the United Kingdom, sent a message around the world that Britain was not open for business. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us precisely how many students from London Metropolitan university were deemed to be “not proper students” and have been removed from the country. If he cannot do so now, perhaps he will write to me.
In his report on tier 4 visas, John Vine said:
“We found a potential risk of non-genuine students opting to apply for Student (Visitor) visas”,
which, he said,
“are not subject to the same stringent rules that are applied to Tier 4… The Agency needs to be alert to this to ensure that this route is not exploited in the future.”
The dramatic increase in the number of people applying to study shorter courses is almost in direct proportion to the fall in the number applying for tier 4 visas. I fear that a displacement activity may be taking place, and I think there is a danger that unless we impose far more significant controls on shorter-term visas, they will be open to abuse.
The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper)
I congratulate the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and others who signed the motion asking for the debate. I also thank the Backbench Business Committee for deciding that it was an appropriate use of time in the Chamber. It has been a very good debate.
Let me start, in an unashamedly positive way, by quoting from the letter that the hon. Member for West Bromwich West received from the Prime Minister earlier this year in response to his own letter.
“The UK has a fantastic offer for international students. Those with the right qualifications, enough money”
—obviously they would need enough to pay for their courses—
“and a good level of English can study here, with no annual limit on numbers. University students can work part-time and do work placements during their studies. When they finish they can stay, providing they get a job paying £20,000”
—now £20,300—
“a year or more, or as a Graduate Entrepreneur, under the first scheme of its kind in the world.”
The Prime Minister confirmed:
“The number coming to our universities is up.”
He also confirmed, importantly—and, to be fair, a number of Members on both sides of the House have acknowledged this—that there was no cap, and that there would be no cap, on the number of students coming to the UK.
Mr Harper
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I finish this point before I give way to him. I think I know what he is going to say, because I took careful note of what he and others said earlier. Let me deal with what I think he is going to say, and if I am wrong I will give way to him later.
I believe that we have a very positive story to tell. I know that newspapers do not always report a positive story, but Ministers try to convey a positive message and, indeed, Members on both sides of the House have tried to do that today.
Mr Harper
Let me make some progress first.
The Government have been clear about the need to bring control to the immigration system, but we have also been clear about our wish to welcome those whom we want in the country. A common view, which many Members will share, was expressed particularly well by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), who said that his constituents had voiced no concern either about those who come here to study at our excellent universities, or about those who come here to do highly skilled jobs in business. I agree with my hon. Friend. That is why we have deliberately designed our system to attract people like that, and to deter those who are not coming to work in skilled occupations, or who are coming for other reasons.
The statistics show that we have achieved that selective balance. The number of university students and the number of people working in skilled jobs have risen. However, as my hon. Friend said, it should also be borne in mind that our constituents are anxious for us to have some control over the system. We must design a system that attracts the best and the brightest—to use the buzz words—from around the world to study, and appeals to global companies based in Britain that want to import some of their engineers and senior managers for a certain period to run their businesses, while also deterring those who will bring no benefit to the United Kingdom.
As Lord Mandelson has said, the previous Government did not have a controlled system. Indeed, they had a completely uncontrolled system: they just went out grabbing people from around the world. We have been determined not to overreact to that, but also to ensure that we have a system that focuses on the right people coming to Britain.
Paul Blomfield
I was expecting the Minister to anticipate my question and respond to it, but as he has not, let me ask it. It is about the cap. Is it not disingenuous, and the sort of misuse of language that brings no credit to this House, when we say on the one hand that there is no cap on the number of students coming, and on the other that we have a target to reduce the number of people coming and students are included in that?
Mr Harper
I do not agree, for the following reason. The point was best made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds). There are two aspects to this. First, over a period, international students who come here to study and then go back to their home country make no contribution to net migration at all, because they come to Britain and then leave. In a steady state, therefore, they make no contribution to net migration at all. My hon. Friend is right, however, that in a growing market, as a consequence of the difference between those coming in a year and those leaving in that year, there will be a gap, but it is only the gap that contributes to net migration, not the total number.
One of the complexities here is that the data on those leaving are not brilliant. The Office for National Statistics, which is independent and which measures the numbers of people coming to and leaving Britain, measures those coming to study, but does not currently measure those who were studying and left. One of the improvements it has made to its system is that it is now starting to do that, and we will get the first of those statistics in August, I think. Coming back to a point that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) made, that will give us a much clearer picture of how many students do leave each year, and we will then get a much clearer idea of the impact of student numbers on net migration. It is worth remembering that a lot of genuine students are still in the UK quite a considerable time after their arrival. According to one study quoted by Opposition Members, about 20% of former international students are still in the UK although they might not have decided to settle here permanently.
The other important point shows why we need a robust system. The NAO study has been quoted several times. In the past there were significant numbers of purported students who were not here to study, but who were working in low-skilled jobs, and significant numbers of students were renewing their visas over a period of time without any academic progression at all. It does no credit to our immigration system or our genuine academic institutions that such abuse is possible. We must deal with that, as well as welcome those we want to welcome to Britain.
Dame Joan Ruddock
I want to relay to the Minister my experiences and those of my constituents in respect of those moving from one course to a higher course who need to renew a visa. It is taking at least three months, and during that time the student has no access to their passport and cannot travel for academic or personal reasons. Is the Minister really satisfied that that is good enough? Will he put more resources into this whole area of endeavour in the Home Office?
Mr Harper
The point the right hon. Lady makes about in-country performance is absolutely right; it is true that the performance in the last financial year of what was the UK Border Agency was not good enough, as I know very well from conversations and correspondence with Members. Out-of-country performance has remained very good, however. Part of the reason why the Home Secretary made the changes she has made to the border agency was to fix the problems in the UK visas and immigration part of the business. The good news is that we have put a lot of resource and effort into turning that around, and the performance of the Home Office for in-country operations—which used to be a UKBA responsibility—has got immeasurably better. The latest figures are much better. It has taken some time to do that, but I ask the right hon. Lady to let me know of any specific outstanding cases, and I will look at them and see if there is anything we can do.
Chris Bryant
The Minister slipped in the words “academic progression”. I fully understand why, in the vast majority of cases, someone would want to go from an undergraduate degree to a postgraduate degree and so on, but there are cases, in particular for vocations and some STEM degrees, where a student who had first done an undergraduate degree in their home country might want to come to the UK to study for another undergraduate degree, which would not count as academic progression. I worry that people might therefore be being excluded who would be perfectly decent and sensible to have studying here.
Mr Harper
I was referring to people who, as I have seen when we have removed them, have been in the UK for a decade or more, perpetually renewing a student visa and clearly making no progress. That is an abuse of the system. We were talking about that, not about trying to micromanage someone’s academic career.
Let me do something that I cannot always do and give some positive news to the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) about London Metropolitan university. I will not rehearse the past in great detail, but I have put a lot of work into this—it happened just about the time at which I was given this job and at which my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green) became the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice—and I am absolutely convinced that the UK Border Agency, as it was, took exactly the right decision to revoke London Metropolitan university’s sponsor licence. It was not fulfilling its responsibilities by any measure. Nobody in the sector has defended it and its behaviour was, I am afraid, well known.
The positive news, which shows that the system works, is that we have worked closely with London Metropolitan university and it has made significant improvements to its system and to the administration of how it delivers on its requirements. It has now been awarded an A-rated sponsor licence, which means it can sponsor international students, and it has 12 months to build up a track record and apply again for highly trusted sponsor status. That is very positive. The Home Office has worked very closely with the university—[Interruption.] I think the hon. Member for Rhondda is asking how many students there are. The university can recruit only 15% of the number it could originally have while it is an A-rated sponsor.
The hon. Member for Islington North asked me about this subject first. I do not have the specific details of all the students that were there and what has happened to them, but we have those data because we wrote to every single one. I will write to the hon. Gentleman, since the university is in his constituency, and I will put a copy of my reply in the Library—[Interruption.] I will also send a copy to the hon. Member for Rhondda and I will include the details of how many have left the country.
Jeremy Corbyn
I am grateful for that information and look forward to receiving the Minister’s letter. Does this mean that students who started their second year last September will now be able to complete the third year of a three-year degree course and that we are back on track towards getting highly trusted status restored in a year’s time?
Mr Harper
It might be more sensible if, rather than trying to answer a lot of specific questions, I set out the detail about the university when I write to the hon. Gentleman. As I said, I shall copy the letter to the hon. Member for Rhondda and will put it in the Library so that other Members can see it. The story is positive, as the university has started to deliver on its compliance requirements.
The Home Office is now working closely with universities and Universities UK on a co-regulation initiative to set out their responsibilities clearly for them. We have had a number of workshops with those universities and they have found that very helpful. I have certainly had positive feedback from UUK, the Russell Group and individual universities I have visited, and they have seen a change in their relationship with the Home Office. It is important that we continue to improve that and I have asked the Home Office to continue to do so.
Jason McCartney
On the theme of positive news, will the Minister join me in welcoming the good news from the award-winning Huddersfield university, which saw its number of international students increase from 1,430 in 2010-11 to 1,845 in the last academic year, an increase of 29%? It is an award-winning university and it contributes massively not only to Huddersfield but to growth and enterprise in the whole of Yorkshire and the north of England.
Mr Harper
That is a helpful point, which has been mentioned by several hon. Members—for example, the hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) told us about sharp increases in the number of international students at her local university.
As my final point—I do not want to test your patience, Madam Deputy Speaker—I will touch on the student visitor visa route, on which the hon. Member for Rhondda expressed two slightly different views. First, he said he was pleased that international students are coming here on shorter courses, but then he voiced some concerns. I hope he noticed that yesterday we published some detailed research that I think makes it clear that the visitor route is being used exactly as intended. It is attracting high-value, low-risk migrants who contribute positively to economic growth; in large part, they attend institutions that are accredited by bodies approved by the Home Office, and most are doing English language programmes or university exchanges. There is literally no evidence of displacement from tier 4 into the student visitor route. The number of students from countries where we have seen abuse under tier 4 and where we have cracked down on that abuse is rising in single figures—fewer than 10—so there is no evidence of further abuse, which I think is very positive. It is perfectly proper that the hon. Gentleman raised the question, but the evidence shows no risk at all.
In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker—
Mr Harper
The right hon. Gentleman knows that the Government have responded to the Select Committee reports and to each of the Select Committees. The clearest response is this: we do not have a cap on student numbers, and I do not think our net migration target means that we will have to take action that damages universities. Universities were originally concerned that having a net migration target and counting student numbers, as all our international competitors do, would drive the Government to take decisions on future policy that would damage universities. The fact that we have stated clearly that not only do we not have a cap but we are not going to have a cap—that was stated not only by me but by the Prime Minister—should reassure universities.
We will take every opportunity to communicate that positive message about our excellent offer for international students, and we will work in partnership with our excellent universities to continue to increase the number of international students who come here from around the world. In that, I think I can say that I speak for every right hon. and hon. Member who participated in the debate.
Mr Bailey
Conscious of the time, I will be brief. I thank everyone who contributed to the debate. When I applied for it, my objective was a debate that was constructive in tone and would enable us to discuss issues and to present facts and figures that are not normally publicised to the extent that they should be. In its own way, the House today may have helped to change the perception abroad by making it clear that this House recognises and understands the contribution that international students make to our economy and welcomes them.
My second point, however, is that the Minister has not really resolved the contradiction at the heart of current policy. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) said, it is contradictory to say that bona fide students are welcome and there is no cap on numbers and, at the same time, to say that there is a target to reduce overall immigration to fewer than 100,000 and student visas should be included in the numbers. The Minister exercised some fairly sophisticated arguments in justification, but I put it to him that, were he to undergo a credibility interview on that point, he would find it hard to persuade Members and would-be international students in foreign countries that what he said is the case.
Lastly, I remind the Minister that the consensus that has emerged during the debate is reflected more widely. Although I did not anticipate the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills coming to the House to vote for the motion, his public utterances have made it clear where he stands on the issue. The Mayor of London—it shows how passionately I feel about it that I quote the Mayor of London—has also made public statements in favour of the arguments set out today, and my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) has made similar statements. When we get three such representatives across the political spectrum, I hope the Minister will accept that there is an enormous and growing consensus in favour of the recommended course of action.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House notes the recommendations of the House of Commons Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, the Home Affairs Select Committee, and the Committee of Public Accounts, together with the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee and the EU Sub-Committee on Home Affairs, Health and Education, for the removal of students from net migration targets; and invites the Home Office to further consider the conclusions of these Committees in developing its immigration policy.
Pollinators and Pesticides
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the matter of pollinators and pesticides.
I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allocating time for this debate. Despite the fact that there are so many conflicting events going on outside the House, we have a healthy number of MPs here who wish to participate. I am grateful to everybody for attending.
The debate today is especially appropriate given that this year is the 50th anniversary of the publication of “Silent Spring”, Rachel Carson’s seminal work on the environmental cost of pesticides such as DDT. It is right that we should revisit the important issue of ecology and the relationship of plants and animals to their environment and to one another.
The Environmental Audit Committee, which I chair, conducted an inquiry on pollinators and pesticides from November 2012 to March 2013. We extended it because there were so many new developments as we carried on with our inquiry. We received 40 written submissions and we held seven oral evidence sessions. I thank all the witnesses to the inquiry. It was a unanimous report and I thank members of the Committee, some of whom are able to be present today and some of whom have sent their apologies. I also thank the Committee staff, who did a phenomenal amount of work helping us to compile our report, and put on record my thanks to Chris Miles of cdimagesanddesigns for his generosity in allowing us to use his photograph, “Pit stop” to grace the cover of the report. We are often told how accessible or otherwise House of Commons reports are, and we feel that thanks to him, the cover on our report is fitting. Bees like to go to bright, colourful flowers and we thought we would have the same for our report.
The EAC report was published on 5 April. In normal circumstances we would have been content to wait for the Government response to our report, but given that the European Commission took significant regulatory action in this area on 29 April, shortly after its publication, we felt that a debate was urgent and timely, and on behalf of the Committee I sought the opportunity to hold the debate today.
Let me put on record the favourable response that we have had from many who care about nature and wildlife. I thank Buglife, which affirmed that our report provides robust recommendations for the future of pollinators and the agricultural industry, and Friends of the Earth, whose recent reception in the House was attended by well over 100 MPs, although I was not able to be there myself. That testified how much support there is in our constituencies all around the UK for its bee action plan. The all-party group on agro-ecology welcomed our support. It, too, welcomes the recent decision by the EU to ban three types of neonicotinoid pesticides. The all-party group believes that to be the right decision, and calls for decisions on our food supply and environment to be based on science and not on extreme lobbying and scare-mongering by those who have an immense vested interest.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I compliment my hon. Friend for the report and her work on this issue. While I welcome the decision on particular pesticides, does she recognise that there is a wider question of eco-diversity that we have to address? If we do not, that will be something else that kills off the bee population in future. We must have a different approach to our natural environment in relation to agriculture.
Joan Walley
I welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention. Our report clearly states that there is no one solution and that we need, as he rightly says, a whole new systemic approach. The core of our report is that we need to get the balance right between scientific evidence and the precautionary principle, but there are very many issues that relate to all this.
We have had further support from many members of the general public and concerned interest groups, not least Bedfordshire Beekeepers Association, which said:
“Your work has been an inspirational example of democratic scrutiny in action…we hope that you will be able to hold government to account and influence policy making both at national and EU level.”
This is exactly what we are doing today and intend to continue doing. This debate is by no means our only follow-up to the report. We are raising the issue today to see how the many things that need to be done can get done, with the direction of the Government.
The Committee decided to conduct our inquiry because the available evidence indicated that insect pollinators have experienced serious population declines in the UK in recent years. For example, we heard—this is quite shocking—that two thirds to three quarters of insect pollinator species are declining in the UK. Indeed, the 2013 report “State of Nature” assessed 178 bee species in the UK and found that half were in decline. For the benefit of the House, I should explain that insect pollinators include not only honey bees and wild bees but other insects such as hoverflies, moths and butterflies. At the moment, the honey bee is the sentinel species for all insect pollinators, which means that most scientific studies involve bees, but given the biological differences between the various insect pollinators, it is vital that the Government monitor a wider range of species. I hope that this is an uncontroversial point on which the Government will agree with my Committee.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
indicated assent.
Joan Walley
I am very pleased to see the Minister nodding. I refer him to our recommendation 13: “Defra must”—I stress “must”—
“introduce a national monitoring programme to generate and monitor population data on a broad range of wild insect pollinator species to inform policy making.”
We felt that that is the bottom line and the starting point of what now needs to be done. As we went through our deliberations and came to reach our decisions, we endeavoured to find as much common ground among members of the Committee as we could before we turned to the issue of neonicotinoids.
Let me move on to the question of why insect populations might be declining. I want to make it clear at the outset that the health of insect pollinators is defined by a range of factors, including not only pesticides but urbanisation, loss of habitat, agricultural intensification and climate change; obviously, weather patterns affect things as well.
Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)
My hon. Friend will know that the Government intend to issue—shortly, I believe—planning guidance on biodiversity. Does she agree that councils need to be encouraged and given the impetus to protect and restore bee-friendly habitats in their own neighbourhoods, which would make a real contribution to addressing the point she is making?
Joan Walley
I thank my right hon. Friend; she makes exactly the right point, and I absolutely agree. We need safe havens for wildlife, especially in urban areas, although it is not just about urban areas. The planning system underpins the whole issue of our natural capital and biodiversity. If we do not have guidance on how we protect and enhance our natural environment, the bees do not stand a chance.
Throughout our inquiry, the Environmental Audit Committee acknowledged the importance of sustaining agricultural yields, controlling pests effectively and maintaining food security. Indeed, those concerns were reflected in our final report. Equally, we were mindful of the value of insect pollinators as an ecosystem service to UK agriculture. I think that Members will be aware of the various estimates of the agricultural value of insect pollination, ranging from £500 million to £1.9 billion, depending on whether one takes into account the cost of replacement hand pollination. We felt that those issues ought to be given a value and taken into account.
In case anyone thinks that our report is just about a moratorium on certain neonicotinoids, I hope they will have a chance to read it in full and make themselves aware of the cross-cutting nature of our work and the importance that we give to using the common agricultural policy control to help British farming move as quickly as possible to integrated pest management.
As I have said, the Committee considered a range of factors that affect insect pollinators, but we were driven to scrutinise the effects of one family of insecticides—neonicotinoids—by the weight of peer-reviewed scientific evidence. For Members who are not familiar with neonicotinoids, I should say that they are a class of insecticide derived from nicotine. Following their introduction in the mid-’90s, they have been widely used in the UK on oilseed rape, cereals, maize, sugar beet and crops grown in glass houses. The body of evidence indicating that neonicotinoids cause acute harm to bees grew appreciably in the course of our inquiry, as new studies were published in heavyweight journals such as Science and Nature. In this case, harm to bees includes increased susceptibility to disease and reduced foraging and reproduction. If Members are interested in the particular scientific studies, I refer them to the Henry, Whitehorn and Gill experiments.
We heard that 94% of published peer-reviewed experiments on the effects of neonicotinoids on bees found evidence of acute harm. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the agri-chemical industry argued throughout our inquiry that the dosage used in those laboratory experiments was too high. In response it is worth pointing out that those studies used dosages derived from the best available data on the concentrations of neonicotinoids that bees encounter in the field.
The agri-chemical industry also likes to cite its own tests as proof that neonicotinoids cannot harm bees. However, the industry studies by which neonicotinoids were licensed for use in the European Union were not peer reviewed and are not open to scrutiny due to the supposed commercial sensitivity of the data. Furthermore, we found evidence in relation to the licensing of imidacloprid which calls into question altogether the rigour of the testing regime.
Against that background, we went on to consider the precautionary principle. By definition, insecticides kill insects. The precautionary question is whether neonicotinoid insecticides have an unsustainable impact on insect pollinators. The 1992 United Nations Rio declaration on environment and development states:
“Where there are threats of serious and irreversible damage, lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a reason for postponing cost-effective measures to prevent environmental degradation.”
That internationally agreed definition of the precautionary principle was later enshrined in the Lisbon treaty and it underpins much of the work that has been done on sustainable development, including when the work of the Rio conference was built on at Rio+20 only last year in Brazil.
Throughout our inquiry, DEFRA used what it identified as a lack of full scientific certainty as an excuse for inaction. For example, at one stage the Department stated that it would require unequivocal evidence of harm before acting on neonicotinoids.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
In medical research, there is a huge issue with drug companies not publishing inconvenient data. Does the hon. Lady feel that that is a serious problem with neonicotinoids?
Joan Walley
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising that point about commercial confidentiality and the lack of transparency. We hear a lot at the moment about lobbying and related issues, but if the agri-chemical industry wishes to make claims about the value of its products, it must open up the evidence to full scrutiny. There is no case for hiding behind so-called “commercial confidentiality”. That prevents the open, transparent and informed policy making that is so badly needed. I agree with the hon. Lady and her point relates to one of the recommendations in our report.
When the weight of peer-reviewed evidence rendered untenable DEFRA’s position on the need for unequivocal evidence, it claimed that it would commission the Food and Environment Research Agency to conduct a realistic field study to resolve the matter. That study was not peer reviewed and it was, as one witness to our inquiry presciently pointed out, clearly too small to provide conclusive results. It was undermined by fundamental errors in its execution, such as placing the various hives that were used in the experiments outside on different days of the year.
Our view on the study, which was that we should not accept it, was confirmed by the European Food Safety Authority on Tuesday, when it identified the same weaknesses as we did.
Joan Walley
I am glad to see the Minister nodding his head. The conclusion was that there was no reason for EFSA to change its view.
DEFRA told us that its pesticides policy was underpinned by the precautionary principle. I fear that in this case, that statement of intent has not been matched by DEFRA’s actions. Interestingly, the private sector appears to be more willing than DEFRA to implement precautions. In the course of our inquiry, we heard that major do-it-yourself chains such as B&Q, Wickes and Homebase were withdrawing neonicotinoids from sale for domestic use, and supermarket chains such as the Co-operative have prohibited their suppliers from using neonicotinoids in anything other than exceptional circumstances. I also welcome the press release from Waitrose, which states that it is looking to do the same in respect of flowering crops.
As our report was taking shape and we were having involved discussions among ourselves, we had to extend the length of our inquiry to take account of developments elsewhere, because it was clear that we were being overtaken by events such as the European Commission’s regulatory action. Although the growing weight of published scientific research did not impress DEFRA, it led the EC to take action. The EC is responsible for licensing chemicals for use in European agriculture. It instructed EFSA to draw up new risk assessments for neonicotinoids in relation to bees. The revised risk assessments led the EC to propose measured regulatory action, with a two-year EU-wide moratorium on the use of three of the five neonicotinoids on crops that are attractive to bees.
The EC proposal was put to a qualified majority vote on 15 March. As we all know, the vote was inconclusive and the UK abstained. The hung outcome of the vote allowed the EC to implement the appeal procedure, which led to a second vote on 29 April. I understand that between 15 March and 29 April, there was intensive lobbying and negotiation in Europe. Indeed, I went out personally to present our report to the European Commissioner. Finally, the EC amended its initial proposal. It recognised the need to delay the introduction of a moratorium to allow the seed supply chain time to adjust, which was a recommendation of our report. That is an example of how my Committee focused on the practical outcomes for the agricultural sector. We did not want to make any knee-jerk recommendations and we wanted there to be time for the matter to be properly understood and acted on.
In the second vote, on 29 April, the UK shifted from abstention to active resistance by voting against the proposed moratorium, despite the concessions made by the European Commission. However, countries such as Germany, France, Spain and the Netherlands all voted for the moratorium, which will consequently be introduced across the EU on 1 December 2013.
What effects will the two-year moratorium have on UK agriculture? First, I want to highlight that when neonicotinoids were banned for use on maize in Italy, there was no negative effect on yield. Secondly, the moratorium will prevent farmers from using neonicotinoids on
“crops that are attractive to bees”,
which of course excludes sugar beet, crops grown in glass houses and winter wheat; it is quite a proportionate measure. Thirdly, neonicotinoids are a relatively recent innovation. Oilseed rape, for example, was a viable UK crop before the introduction of neonicotinoids in the mid-‘90s.
Some have argued that a moratorium on neonicotinoids will lead farmers to spray greater quantities of other more environmentally harmful pesticides, such as organophosphates and pyrethroids. However, it is open to DEFRA to ensure that that is not the case. It is clearly in the interests of the environment, food security, minimising resistance among pests and maximising agricultural incomes that the least possible amount of pesticides is used in agricultural production. Indeed, in talks I have had with different bodies they have said that such a moratorium will mean that there must be a focus on what to do and what alternative proposals to come up with, so that we incentivise a more healthy approach to crops.
To that end, integrated pest management is a broad approach to plant protection that minimises pesticide use and encourages natural pest control mechanisms. By 1 January 2014, all pesticide users will be required to adopt IPM under the European directive on the sustainable use of pesticides. If UK farmers practise IPM, the argument that a moratorium on neonicotinoids will lead to unfavourable environmental outcomes does not hold. I believe that was very much a deciding factor in the Committee’s reaching its unanimous decision.
DEFRA does not appear to have prioritised compliance with the directive on the sustainable use of pesticides. The directive states:
“Member states should adopt…quantitative objectives, targets, measures and timetables to reduce…the impact of pesticide use on the environment.”
However, a DEFRA official dismissed such targets as “meaningless”, which sits uneasily with the Department’s stated commitments to integrated pest management. Indeed, our report was halted or delayed because the Government were slow to make a full response to that European directive.
Other than the recommendations on the moratorium of certain neonicotinoids, the importance of monitoring the health of pollinators and the introduction of integrated pest management, many other detailed issues arise from the Committee’s report that relate to risk assessment and risk management. Those include reforms involving the European food safety authority, where our Government, should they wish to, could take the lead, CAP reform and recognising the importance of less secrecy and greater transparency in the risk assessment trials undertaken by the agrochemical industry—the point raised by the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston). I am disappointed that the Government have chosen to delay their response to our report, which was due this week, but I look forward to their detailed response on the work we have carried out. For now, however, events have moved quickly and DEFRA did not take our advice when the issue was raised by the European Commission.
In conclusion, I have three questions for the Minister. First, I believe DEFRA has said it will commission further field research on neonicotinoids and bees. Will that research be published in a journal and be peer reviewed? Will the Minister consider commissioning the British scientists who participated in the Gill and Whitehorn studies, rather than FERA, whose previous report was discredited? Is it DEFRA policy to reject all laboratory studies—and, by extension, scientific method—as a basis for action? Secondly, how will DEFRA ensure the effective implementation of the sustainable use of pesticide directive? Thirdly, will the Minister explain what changed between the first EU vote on 15 March, when the UK abstained, to the second EU vote, on 29 April, when the UK voted against a moratorium?
The UK public are concerned about bees and pollinators. When I raised this at Prime Minister’s Question Time, he stressed the importance of the precautionary principle. As we look forward to the summer, people’s minds will be on gardening and planting, and farmers’ minds will be on planting and harvesting. It is critical that we hear from the Government on how they will respond to the EU moratorium.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. May I suggest each speaker takes around 10 minutes?
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in the debate, not least because I am a member of the Environmental Audit Committee. I thank our Chair for the excellent leadership she has provided with this report and others. She is right on the importance of establishing a broad agreement, which the Committee did in its report—we have always achieved such agreement in previous reports, too. That is a good illustration of the Committee’s effectiveness, which I hope will continue, because we will do important work on investment in the green economy, which will result in a thought-provoking and important report.
I am a former farmer, so I am familiar with the pesticides argument. I was principally a livestock farmer, but I could not escape other types of farming. I fully support the report’s recommendations. It is important that we recognise that bees are essential to our environment and to successful farming. That is well illustrated by my constituency—Stroud is recognised as world bee place. We have done a huge amount of work to promote the protection of bees, including wild bees, which are also at risk. I am extraordinarily proud of my constituency’s bee protection reputation.
It is important to recognise that there are more threats to bees than pesticides. We have heard about bee starvation and bee diseases such as varroa—I hope I pronounced that correctly; as a Northumbrian, I sometimes get my vowels slightly mixed up. We also know of a variety of other threats to bees. We should recognise that the Government see the problem and are taking action with the bee protection plan. I hope the Minister outlines how extensive that plan is, because we need to demonstrate that the coalition Government are determined to protect bees.
It was disappointing that the UK did not vote in favour of the moratorium on neonicotinoids, but the moratorium is in place. As our Committee Chair correctly noted, that reflects the concerns and interest the Committee has spelt out. We had a lengthy debate on the seeds supply chain, and recognised that, for any moratorium to be effective, it would have to start later than we envisaged, which is right. It is good that Europe noticed that as well. The changes our Chair outlined are extremely welcome. It is good that the Government, through the field studies we have heard about, are determined to recognise the importance of the impact of neonicotinoids.
Transparency is critical. As my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) noted, there are too many occasions when one wonders how much we really know about what is being discovered or being hidden, so this matter would benefit from true transparency. I urge the Minister and the Department to consider the transparency of field studies, so that we know exactly what is going on and what the tests reveal. As the Chair noted, maize in Italy did not really suffer as a result of neonicotinoids being banned, but that is just one example. Everybody would benefit from more study and a more comprehensive understanding, including pesticide manufacturers. One problem that has to be borne in mind is that banning one type of pesticide might mean that other pesticides are used in an uncontrolled way. We have to monitor the use of all pesticides, especially when withdrawing neonicotinoids, as using different pesticides might make matters considerably worse. I am sure the Government are minded to do that.
On the wider question of the common agricultural policy and overall farm management, as we move towards a reformed CAP it is important to recognise good work, such as that done by the Environmental Stewardship scheme. I would like to see more farmers using such schemes, and for those schemes to become more tailored towards the kind of issue we are debating today.
Dame Joan Ruddock
The hon. Gentleman speaks about further reform of the CAP. I am sure he is aware that recent reforms to the CAP have given national Governments discretion to switch subsidies to agri-environment schemes, which could bring in much more bee-friendly habitats. Does he agree that the Government ought to be taking that step, rather than going on so much about what might be done in the future? Let us use what we have got now.
Neil Carmichael
The Government are a Government of positive action. We are a coalition Government. We benefit enormously from having Conservatives on one side and Liberal Democrats on the other, and I am certain that that combination will bring about exactly what the right hon. Lady says.
The right hon. Lady raises an interesting point about what amounts to the devolution of the CAP. From its inception, its impact has been characterised by either dominant nation states promoting certain types of produce, or, as in this case, by policy filtration, with different levels of government influencing outcomes by changing the nature of the policy. That was particularly prevalent in the early days in certain Mediterranean countries with regard to olives and so on. We should recognise devolution, but it is a double-edged sword. We in this country are able to do the right thing, but can we always guarantee that that will be the case in other countries that might have other priorities? I welcome those changes in the CAP, but urge the Government to do as the hon. Lady suggests. Indeed, I would go further and argue that we need to amplify the CAP’s impact environmental protection. It needs to be understood more clearly by the wider public. If people understood its more positive implications and outcomes, we could generate greater support for the CAP.
To sum up, I think it is right to have the moratorium on neonicotinoids and that it was postponed to allow the supply chain to adjust. It is necessary, however, to maintain a weather eye on neonicotinoids, so I welcome the Government’s commitment to field studies. It is important that they be conducted transparently and that their outcomes be made transparent. It is also important to recognise the value of good management and the impact that the reformed CAP can have. I would like more farmers encouraged down that path. In broad terms, we should celebrate the fact that many organisations—including those in my constituency I mentioned—are doing a lot of good work for the protection of bees. We should be supporting and welcoming those local solutions. Gardeners, too, have a responsibility, because in the past they have used neonicotinoids. It is important to recognise that all of us—I indulge in a spot of gardening myself, though I do not use neonicotinoids —should promote good practice wherever it is necessary, and it is necessary in our gardens, as well as on our farms.
Martin Caton (Gower) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael), who is a fellow member of the Environmental Audit Committee, and I join him in paying tribute to the leadership of our Committee Chair, not only on this vital inquiry, but on all our inquiries.
I strongly support all the conclusions and recommendations in our report, but my interest in what is happening to our pollinating insects goes back quite a bit further than last November, when we started taking evidence. In fact, it probably dates back more than 40 years to when I was at agricultural school and undertook a course in apiculture. The certificate I secured at the end remains a treasured possession. More recently, about three years ago, that interest was further spurred by a 2009 report produced by the organisation Buglife, which our Chair has already mentioned, and the Soil Association. It was a review of the scientific literature on a group of systemic pesticides called neonicotinoids on non-target insect species.
Although the combined evidence in the report was not conclusive, even at that time it rang serious alarm bells that should have received an urgent response from the Government. I secured a Westminster Hall debate on the subject, which a surprising number of Members from across the House attended to express their shared concern about the potential threat posed by these pesticides to a vital group of invertebrates—pollinating insects. Since that debate, thanks to intelligence supplied by Buglife and other environmental organisations, I have tried to keep track of further research and, when significant, have drawn it to the House’s attention through early-day motions and other parliamentary means.
As our Chair said, last autumn, the Committee decided to conduct what has turned out to be a major inquiry taking evidence from the organisations she mentioned. The first thing the Committee had to recognise was that many of our pollinating species appeared to have been in decline for some time. Of course, when we look at pollinators—especially any threats to them—the first focus is usually honey bees. That has been particularly the case in Europe and the USA in recent years, with alarming reports of what is sometimes called colony collapse on an international basis.
As a result of their economic significance, honey bees attract far more scientific attention than any other pollinator. Their decline has been ascribed to a range of causes—pests and diseases, such as the varroa mite, which has been mentioned, along with weather conditions, poor nutrition, poor husbandry, urbanisation, agricultural intensification, habitat degradation and the use and misuse of pesticides. However, honey bees are not the main pollinators in the UK—far from it. Ninety per cent of insect pollination is done by the thousands of other, wild pollinators—other bees, hoverflies, butterflies, carrion flies, beetles, midges, moths, and so on. These other pollinators are not monitored or studied like honey bees, so we do not know exactly what is happening to them. However, we received disquieting evidence from some witnesses of how, as the Chair has said, two thirds of wild pollinator species are declining, including moths, butterflies, hoverflies and bumble bees. We were told that of the 25 UK bumble bee species, two or three—no one is sure because the research has not been done—have already become extinct, while probably 10 others have suffered large range decline.
We were advised that DEFRA has a bee unit that does a good job of monitoring honey bees. There are 70 Government scientists dedicated to researching honey bees, but just part of one scientist looking at the health of wild bees. That has to change. We cannot afford to remain ignorant about our wild pollinators. That is why we call in the report for DEFRA to introduce a national monitoring programme to generate and monitor population data on a broad range of wild insect pollinator species. If we do not really know what is going on, we cannot make the right policy decisions to halt decline.
Most people looking at pollinator decline would come to the conclusion that, at least in most cases, multiple factors are at play—those that I have listed for honey bees and perhaps others. Most of our witnesses who addressed the wider picture accepted that there were probably a range of causes. However, the representatives of mainstream farming and especially the agrichemical industry were absolutely adamant that the decline had nothing to do with pesticide use and especially not the use of neonics. Our Chair has described how neonicotinoids work, which I will not repeat, but I will add that they are systemic, which means that they get into every part of the plants that are treated with them. Pollinating insects absorb them and carry them back to their nests or hives, even though they are not the target species.
Dame Joan Ruddock
My hon. Friend is making some interesting points. Does he think, as I do, that the Government perhaps need to rewrite their national pesticides action plan? There are methods other than the use of chemicals. They ought to be encouraged so that farmers and horticulturalists do whatever they can to reduce the chemical pressure on the environment and the pollinators.
Martin Caton
I completely agree, and I am coming to the Government’s pesticides action plan, which is actually an “inaction plan”—to be quite honest, it is a disgraceful document.
We looked at the pesticide approvals regime at EU and UK levels, and found a system flawed at both. Put simply, it works like this. The chemical company puts together the scientific data to support its application and submits a dossier to the regulatory authority in any EU member state. That authority’s experts make their own assessment, which is set out in a draft assessment report. That is then reported to the European Food Safety Authority, which conducts a peer review by experts from other EU countries. Its conclusions are sent to the Commission, which makes a proposal—for approval or not—to the Council of Ministers. After approval, companies can apply to the regulatory authority in any member state for permission to market their product. The regulatory authority in the UK is the chemicals regulation directorate of the Health and Safety Executive. The CRD prepares a scientific evaluation, which is considered by the Advisory Committee on Pesticides, which is a statutory, independent body that advises Ministers on whether approval should be given.
On the face of it, the whole thing sounds quite rigorous, but we found significant flaws. First, as our Chair said, the pesticide manufacturers that commission the research to submit to the regulators keep control of that research. In practice, that means that the data on safety under which a chemical is licensed are not put into the public domain, denying effective academic access and, therefore, independent criticism. In contrast, some of the academics who gave evidence to us reported that their research was openly published, which meant that where it showed a link between pesticide use and pollinator decline, defenders of the agrichemical industry would go through their work with a fine-toothed comb looking for a way to rubbish it, sometimes deliberately misinterpreting it to do so. We believe that it should not be beyond the wit of humankind to ensure maximum transparency without threatening genuine commercial sensitivity.
Another problem with the process is that, up to now, the EU approval system has explicitly addressed only the risk to honey bees. That probably would not be too bad if the honey bee were one of the more fragile and sensitive pollinators. If that were the case, and it survived exposure to a product, it would be likely that other, tougher pollinator species would be fine. In fact, we heard evidence that the honey bee is probably the most robust of the pollinators when it comes to pesticide exposure. Bumble bee research, for instance, shows the clear detrimental impact of neonicotinoid use. Some pollinators, such as hoverflies, have very different life cycles from any bees, and therefore have different exposure routes. Such pollinators remain unconsidered at present. We urge DEFRA to introduce a representative range of sentinel pollinator species in UK pesticide risk assessments, and to work for the same arrangements across the EU.
We also came across an example that showed that, however good the approval system might be in theory, it can fall down badly in practice. The neonicotinoid imidacloprid had to be re-evaluated in 2006. Germany’s regulatory authority produced the draft assessment report. One of the properties to be assessed was the propensity of the pesticide to accumulate in soil and water, and the assessments were carried out in two trials here in the UK. The results of the tests were misreported in the draft assessment report, however. It concluded that
“the compound has no potential for accumulation in soil”.
That is exactly the opposite of what the trial evidence showed. When the European Food Safety Authority conducted its peer review of the German assessment, it identified the pesticide’s apparent tendency to accumulate, and concluded:
“The risk assessment to soil dwelling organisms cannot be finalised because the assessment of soil accumulation is not finalised.”
This formed part of the text of the EFSA peer review sent to the Commission, so one might have expected that body to refuse approval until the accumulation question had been answered.
The European Commission Standing Committee on the Food Chain and Animal Health considered EFSA’s report and, astonishingly, gave imidacloprid its approval, stating that it presented
“no unacceptable risks to the environment”.
There was no mention of accumulation in soil. That was a clear and dangerous failure of the assessment process. We argued that the process needed to be tightened up by empowering EFSA to include in future peer reviews action points that the Commission must address.
We looked at the growing body of evidence linking neonicotinoid use with pollinator decline. This was taken seriously by a considerable number of academics, but dismissed by the agrichemical companies, mainly for two reasons. First, they claimed that the trial doses were higher than would be used in practice. Secondly, they stated that the experiments had been carried out in the laboratory or only partly in the field, and claimed that they could trust only field trials. That Orwellian mantra, “Field trials good, laboratory trials bad”, was repeated often during our inquiry.
DEFRA’s real underlying attitude to assessing the risks of pesticide use was inadvertently given away in a 2012 document, “Neonicotinoid insecticides and bees: the state of the science and the regulatory response”. As our Committee Chair has said, the Department stated that it needed unequivocal proof in order to support a moratorium.
Joan Walley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making these points. This sums up the flawed basis on which permissions were being given throughout the whole regulatory procedure. We are now presenting the Government with the opportunity to take a leadership role, and we want them to follow up exactly on the recommendations in our report.
Martin Caton
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I will now conclude my speech, as I have gone over the 10 minutes you suggested, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
It is true to say that very little of what is discussed in this Chamber is beyond dispute. Indeed, only on Tuesday, a scientific hypothesis that has been shown to be supported by 97% of scientists writing about it in a review of 12,000 papers—namely, anthropogenic global warming—was nevertheless merrily being debated by hon. Members as though that near certainty did not exist. Questions concerning what is happening to bees and pollinators, what the causes are and what role pesticides may or may not play in the problems that we have heard this afternoon are occurring with bee populations are far less certain than that. It is thus potentially a matter for a great deal of dispute.
I want to reflect on the related problem that we as legislators have in addressing those issues and deciding how best to take action on them. The Select Committee’s work on this issue was an exemplar of how to go about that when the members themselves are not experts. Interestingly, however, as we have heard, the Environmental Audit Committee has rather more experts on it than one might think in respect of those who hold a certificate in apiculture. Also, several members are active or former farmers who have a great deal of knowledge and information about how these things work in general. The Committee did not go about its business in any kind of sensationalist manner. It operated carefully, quietly and at some length, seeking a large range of thoughts, opinions and experts in order to shed some light on what is a very knotty problem.
The problem was well summed up in a book published recently by the Canadian author, Douglas Coupland. He posited as a starting point of his novel that bees had been declared extinct. Then, across America, five people were found who had been stung by bees, and they were all arrested and immediately investigated by scientists on the basis of that apparently counter-scientific fact relating to the continuous existence of bees. Douglas Coupland was, I think, a little unscientific in setting out a world in which there were no bees, without taking account of the large number of other pollinators that exist alongside bees.
We know from the evidence produced before the Select Committee that the problem is not just about honey bees; in fact it is not just about bees as it is about all the pollinators that operate in our environment in such a fundamentally important and basic way to ensure that our ecosystem continues in a recognisable way. If the sort of declines that the Committee heard about are to continue at the same rate over the same sort of period, not just several bumble bee species but large numbers of bumble bees will be extinct.
The Committee was told that 600 solitary bees can pollinate as well as two hives containing 30,000 honey bees, so it is not just about honey bees. As our Committee Chairman mentioned, they are a sentinel species, but it is nevertheless the case that hoverflies, butterflies and all sorts of other pollinators are in steep decline. We were told that 66% of larger moth species in the countryside are declining, as are most of the bumble bees—we were told that six species had declined by at least 80% in recent years. As we have heard, hoverflies are declining, and 71% of butterfly species are declining at an alarming rate. We do not have data on the vast majority of the other pollinators, and we have to take some of those sentinel species as indicators for those other species, but we certainly do know that something is beginning to go seriously wrong with the species that pollinate our crops, flowers and food.
So I do not think the Committee had a choice in the conclusions it might reasonably draw from the material presented to it, given that, as legislators, we have to make choices when we are not necessarily complete experts in a subject. We are responsible for what happens and we have to take the best shot we can in terms of getting the best evidence available to inform our judgments. The evidence that came before the Committee demonstrated clearly a strong relationship, not only where neonicotinoids were used, but, for example, where crops were routinely dusted. Farmers cannot purchase oilseed rape seeds in this country that have not been dusted. Whether or not they think there is a problem with their crops, they simply have to plant those crops, which have, systemic within them, the effect of the neonicotinoid with which they have been dusted.
The Committee heard about the various studies done by Henry, Whitehorn and Gill, which demonstrated a strong causal link between neonicotinoids and an effect on bees in a laboratory. We also heard about the continued difficulty in conducting adequate field trials. One person who contributed to our evidence suggested that getting scientific certainty from field trials would cost about £20 million and take 10 years, if that is what one wanted to do. So we cannot deal in absolute scientific certainty on these things and, in terms of decision making, nor should we. The conclusions that the Committee reached on what should be done about neonicotinoids are absolutely right, given what we, as legislators, are charged with doing. I continue to be a little dismayed about the extent to which it appears that this is not quite the route the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is taking in its representations on pesticides, pollinators and bees.
I welcome the notion that further, and, we hope, much less flawed, field trials will be carried out urgently, which can get further indicators to the fore. I also welcome the idea that we should try to ensure that integrated approaches are brought to the fore in the future management of pesticides. It has been implied—the Committee unanimously felt that this was not the case—that there are no alternatives to neonicotinoids if they are taken off the roster of usable pesticides for those plants. I hope that we can use different methods of pesticide management and ensure that the crops are well maintained, with advice and assistance from DEFRA, in a way that a number of people say is not possible to do.
We remain in a world in which there is an enormous amount that we do not know. I hope that DEFRA will monitor developments involving non-bee pollinators much more closely, will keep them well to the fore in the views that it expresses and the action that it decides to take, and will continue to look at the evidence that is being produced about elements that are thought to be having an impact on colony decline. I hope that its consideration will bring together such issues as varroa mite habitats, food availability, husbandry, and, indeed, climate change, in order to create a more complete picture of what is going on.
Let me emphasise again that we do not know the details of what is going on. We do not know what is the prime cause of decline. What we do know is that there is a decline, that it is very serious, and that we can do things about it. That is the essence of what the Committee is saying in the report. It does not seek to provide all the answers; it does not look for a silver bullet; but it does suggest that there is a strong case for taking action. I hope that DEFRA will take precisely the sort of action that we need, in order to ensure that our pollinators are healthier in the future and our ecosystem revives as a result.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
The debate about pollinators and pesticides tends to be seen as a debate about bees and the decline of our bee population, but, in fact, more than 250 pollinating insects are threatened with extinction, including more than 50% of all wild bee species. A third of European butterfly species are in decline, with about 10% at risk of extinction. Over the last 70 years two species of bumble bee have become extinct in the United Kingdom, and six of the remaining 24 are listed as endangered.
I was recently told by a constituent who is a county moth recorder for Gloucestershire that, according to “The State of Britain’s Larger Moths 2013”, produced by Butterfly Conservation and Rothamsted Research, Britain’s moth population has declined seriously in the last 40 years, and more than 60 species have become extinct since 1900.
There are about 400,000 species of flowering plants. While some rely on wind to move pollen and a much smaller number rely on water, the vast majority—about 90%—depend on animals and insects to transfer pollen between flowers. The considerable decline in pollinators to which some of my hon. Friends have referred today poses several risks, but in particular it poses a risk to our food supply. Bees are thought to be responsible for the pollination of about a third of the food eaten by the world’s population. Twenty per cent. of the UK’s cropped area is made up of pollinator-dependent crops, which include most fruit and vegetables.
I must confess that, as became clear when I met representatives of Friends of the Earth to discuss their campaign, I tended to think of bees as flower pollinators, and had not really thought about the food chain. However, almost all blueberries, grapefruits, avocados, cherries, apples, pears, plums, squashes, cucumbers, strawberries, raspberries, blackberries and macadamia nuts, along with many other products—I think that cabbages were mentioned—depend on the foraging activities of bees. Moreover, pollination is responsible not just for the quantity of food but for its quality, in terms of both taste and nutrients. Watermelons that are visited more frequently by pollinators tend to have darker fruit with a richer flavour. It is estimated that without bees, the availability of vitamin C could drop by 20%.
The decline in pollinators also poses an economic risk. Their value to the UK Government is conservatively estimated to be £430 million per annum. Unless we halt the decline in British bees and other pollinators, our farmers might have to rely on hand pollination, which could cost farmers £1.8 billion a year in labour and pollen alone. That is increasingly happening in China, causing food prices to rise.
There is also a risk to the environment. Pollinators are important for the quality of our gardens, parks and countryside. Their decline gives us a worrying early warning indication about the health of our environment. Tony Juniper says in his book, “What has nature ever done for us?”:
“While governments would not consider neglecting our spending on power networks and transport infrastructure, the ‘green infrastructure’ was taken for granted.”
He goes on to say:
“We clearly possess the means to keep the world’s pollinator populations strong and robust, if we want to. All we have to do is invest in the many practical and often simple steps that will take us in that direction.”
What are the remedies? I have received hundreds of e-mails from constituents, many of whom are gardeners, witnessing the decline of the bee population. They are also helping to create bee-friendly gardens and habitats to help bees to thrive. Unlike some rural areas, which can be a monoculture in terms of pollination potential, Bristol’s parks, gardens and even buildings are being used as rich sources for flowering plants. Cities have great potential as places for restoring habitats for bees.
The Welsh Assembly is leading the way in taking action. It is currently consulting on its draft “Action Plan for Pollinators for Wales”, published in April. I have been urging the Bristol council member responsible for the environment, communities and equalities to adopt a pollinator action plan for Bristol along the same lines, given the importance of this for the Bristol area. A range of decisions taken by the current mayoral cabinet, from planning issues to management of public spaces, could have an impact on bee numbers. Indeed, local authorities could take proactive action to protect and create habitats for bees and other pollinators.
Bristol is an ideal city to take the lead in reversing bee decline. We have been shortlisted alongside Brussels, Glasgow and Ljubljana to become European green capital for 2015, and we will find out next week whether we have won. We have a well-deserved reputation as the most sustainable city in the UK, with organisations including the Soil Association and the Environment Agency based in the city, and with our growing number of innovative green businesses and community-led initiatives. We were one of the first cities to set up a food policy council, which is driving sustainable food policies for the city, including by increasing the amount of land available for allotments, and Feed Bristol is running its “get growing” garden trail this weekend; the public can visit 27 sites and be inspired to get growing.
I am delighted that a project to plant flower meadows across the city has won the mayor’s genius award for its efforts to transform the urban environment for pollinating insects. This urban pollinators project, led by the university of Bristol and working in partnership with the city council’s “meadow Bristol” project, is planting flower meadows in Bristol’s public parks and at schools, turning them into a haven for pollinating insects, as well as a beautiful display that everyone can enjoy. On 17 June in Bristol there will be a seminar called “bees, blooms and Bristol”, at which Professor Jane Memmott of the university of Bristol and others will be talking about how we can make Bristol even more pollinator-friendly. I hope that when the Government issue their planning practice guidance on biodiversity, which is expected soon, they will work with councils and the Welsh Assembly, giving them the guidance and impetus they need to protect and restore bee-friendly habitats.
Finally, I want to turn to the issue of pesticides. It was remiss of me not to congratulate at the beginning of my speech the Environmental Audit Committee on its work. Scientists have stated conclusively that neonicotinoid pesticides pose unacceptable levels of risk to honey bees. I hope the Government will adopt the Committee’s recommendation that they should rewrite their national pesticides action plan to incentivise farmers to use non-pesticide methods of pest control and set out a route for reducing overall pesticide use. There needs to be a real shift towards more wildlife-friendly farming in the UK.
I was pleased that the Committee investigated the use of pesticides both on agricultural seed and on plants and seeds sold by garden centres. One constituent, a secondary school teacher who has been planting a wild meadow in the school where she works, recently wrote to me when she was appalled to discover that the plants she was buying to attract insects could actually be harming them. I am pleased to learn from the report that many of the UK’s largest gardening retailers, including B&Q, Wickes and Homebase, have voluntarily withdrawn non-professional plant protection products that contain neonicotinoids, but I urge the Government to accept the Committee’s recommendation that we should implement a full ban on the sale of neonicotinoids for public domestic use, to help create an urban safe haven for pollinators.
My final point is about the EU vote. As we have heard, the UK Government were one of eight Governments who voted against a ban, but thankfully the vote was carried by a narrow majority and the UK will not be able to opt out. The press has carried reports of intense secret lobbying by British Ministers on behalf of chemical companies in the run-up to the vote. In a letter released to The Observer under freedom of information rules, the Environment Secretary told the chemicals company Syngenta that he was “extremely disappointed” by the proposed ban. He said that
“the UK has been very active”
in opposing it and that
“our efforts will continue and intensify in the coming days”.
We know that the Government said that they opposed the ban because they felt that there was insufficient scientific evidence from field trials to justify one, but I would be grateful if the Minister explained why the Government went beyond that in working so closely with chemical companies to oppose this moderate two-year suspension while further tests are carried out.
I congratulate the Environmental Audit Committee on its report. Out of all the Committees in the House, it has produced some absolutely fascinating reports, such as its report on protecting the Arctic and the report on green investment that is coming up. This has been a very interesting debate.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
I, too, congratulate the Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), and her team on the very thorough work they have done in this report. I also want to take the opportunity to express my concerns about the Government’s commitment to reversing bee decline, particularly in the light of the decision to vote against an EU-wide ban on neonicotinoid insecticides.
The need for action to reverse bee decline is highly urgent. All species of bee in the UK, including wild bumble and solitary species as well as managed honey bees, are suffering steep decline. In the last century, the UK has lost 20 species of bee and 47 surviving species are considered to be vulnerable or endangered. Such a rapid decline in bee populations, not just in the UK but across the world, poses a serious threat to global food production, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) has just mentioned.
The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation estimates that about a third of all plants or plant products eaten by humans are dependent on bee pollination. The vital importance of bees to our environment and economy has long been known to the experts, but the critical role of our natural pollinators is only beginning to gain a wider appreciation.
Imaginative national campaigns, such as the Friends of the Earth campaign for a bee action plan, have had an impact in informing people about bee decline and gathering momentum for a comprehensive strategy from the Government. It is clear that the importance of the issue has also hit home in countries such as France and Italy. Italy is not always known for its interest in the environment, but it has led the way in banning certain types of pesticide before the moratorium was voted on by the EU.
For those of us who have been waiting for the Government to step up to the mark and action a comprehensive plan to reverse the ruinous decline in the UK’s bee population, the recent decision by Ministers to vote against the EU ban on neonicotinoid insecticides came as a blow. Thankfully for the bee population, the weight of support for the ban among other EU member states enabled the European Commission to proceed with a two-year moratorium on the use of neonicotinoids, but the UK’s action confirmed the Government’s fundamental misunderstanding of their responsibility on the issue and betrayed a worrying lack of insight into where their priorities should lie.
DEFRA Ministers are hiding behind the need for what they call “clearer proof” of harm to bees caused by neonicotinoids. Indeed, they attempted to discredit the findings of the European Food Safety Agency, which concluded that the insecticides represented a “high acute risk” to honey bees and other pollinators, by pointing out that they were based on the results of lab tests rather than “field evidence”. There were those that hoped that by capitalising on the difficulty of obtaining field evidence they could get away with maintaining the status quo.
The UK field study cited by DEFRA Ministers as proof that neonicotinoids did not pose a risk to bees was pronounced hopelessly inadequate by EFSA. The bumblebee hives intended as controls in the experiment had been contaminated by neonicotinoids, and the study was found to be deficient in a large number of other ways. EFSA also expressed pointed concern about the manner in which the authors had
“elaborated and interpreted the study results to reach their conclusions”.
Needless to say, the study was brushed hastily under the carpet and Ministers were forced to stop touting it as sufficient proof that a ban was unnecessary, but the disregard for suggestive evidence that neonicotinoids cause harm and the massaging of scientific evidence to suit current policy causes real concern. Most troubling is that the Government have completely missed the point: in this situation, given the potential truly devastating effects of bee decline, it is the Government’s duty to act with appropriate caution—a duty they have utterly failed to recognise. In other words, DEFRA Ministers must apply the precautionary principle, as set out in the 1992 United Nations Rio declaration and the Lisbon treaty. It is not for the Government to entertain a value-based preference for false negatives—a desperate willingness to conclude that neonicotinoid pesticides are safe when they might not be. As the Environmental Audit Committee report states,
“economic factors should not blur environmental risk assessment and risk management, where the protection of people and the environment must be paramount.”
The sense of disappointment in the Government’s actions on bee-harming neonicotinoids is compounded by the fact that this is exactly the sort of issue—one that has far-reaching and potentially devastating environmental and economic implications—that we expect the UK to champion. We of all countries have always had a reputation for thorough scientific research, real concern for the environment and respect for the precautionary principle, and that the Government did not decide to take a proactive leading role in tackling bee decline related to pesticide use reflects very poorly on our nation’s attitude to environmental issues and severely damages the UK’s reputation for diligence and responsibility regarding the environment. The Government have not lived up to expectations. They should have had the foresight to lead; instead, they have allowed themselves to be beaten around by the big companies—a point my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East made clearly—and left us trailing behind.
Now the Government must seize the chance to make a fresh start. The two-year moratorium on the use of three neonicotinoid pesticides on crops attractive to honey bees will provide an opportunity for DEFRA Ministers to carry out careful and impartial monitoring of the effect on bee populations of the removal of pesticides. That will be a positive action that demonstrates the UK’s appreciation of the seriousness of bee decline and its commitment to working to reverse it. It will also demonstrate the UK’s support for the work of the European Commission, which also plans to use the two-year suspension period to review new scientific evidence on how pollinators are faring more generally.
The Government must also overhaul their national action plan for the sustainable use of pesticides. It was necessary to take legal advice on whether the action plan complied with the minimum standards of the EU directive, which strongly suggests that the Government failed to see the directive as an opportunity to address the wider issue of pesticide use. In fact, UK use of insecticides on crops pollinated by bees remains on a steady upward trend. The Government must abandon their irresponsible, lacklustre approach and rewrite the action plan to incentivise farmers to use non-pesticide-based methods of pest control, making sure to include targets, measures and timetables for the reduction of pesticide use overall.
The Government must also recognise their duty to apply the precautionary principle. Given what is at stake, DEFRA must commit itself to erring on the side of caution in matters relating to bee decline and in future complex matters relating to the protection of people and the environment. The Select Committee observed:
“There is no compelling economic or agricultural case for neonicotinoid use in private gardens and on amenities such as golf courses”
and said that that might provide DEFRA Ministers with an immediate opportunity to prove their commitment to the precautionary principle.
It is time for the Government to turn themselves around and to move away from their disappointing behaviour on neonicotinoid insecticides by accepting the European moratorium with grace and applying themselves to tackling the harm caused to bees by pesticides. They also need to look more widely at their policy on bees and work to formulate and introduce a comprehensive bee action plan to save threatened habitats, promote bee-friendly farming and construction practices, and guide councils and the public on how they can protect our nation’s vital pollinators.
On pesticides and on all these measures, the UK Government must take the lead. What steps will the Minister take to ensure that a UK-wide moratorium on the three neonicotinoid pesticides is fully in place by the deadline of 1 December? Will the Minister prove his commitment to countering the bee decline by setting quantitative targets for the reduction of all pesticide use and working hard to encourage the use of alternative pest management methods, as the EU directive requires? Will the Minister follow the example of the Labour Welsh Government’s draft action plan for pollinators, which sets out measures to help all bee species across all policy areas, including farming, conservation and planning? If so, when will he implement a UK-wide bee action plan? I very much hope that the Minister will be able to provide some answers this afternoon.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
I begin by echoing other Members’ tributes to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) for initiating the debate. Her Committee has published an important and powerful report on the subject and I commend all members of the Environmental Audit Committee for producing it. I am sure the Minister has pored over the document in detail and will give us his thoughts on it later this afternoon.
Outstanding contributions have been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Martin Caton), the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) and my hon. Friends the Members for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) and for Llanelli (Nia Griffith). As usually happens when Front Benchers wind up these debates, we tend to be left with only the task of repeating many of the points that have already been made. It reminds me of the old saying that at any meeting everything that has to be said has already been said, but not everyone has said it yet. So I shall plough on regardless.
The debate around neonicotinoids has brought the decline of bee and pollinator populations into sharp focus. The profound effects this will have on the future of horticulture, agriculture and the wider environment cannot be overstated. Bees and other pollinating insects play a vital role in our food supply, providing essential pollination services estimated to be worth £440 million to UK agriculture each year, as well as enriching our natural environment and biodiversity.
Two months ago, in April, I convened what I ambitiously entitled a bee health summit, which was attended by leading academics, environmental groups, biotechnology companies, farming unions and representatives from leading apiary organisations. I apologise to the Minister for forgetting to invite him. I am sure his contributions would have been worth while. Predictably, there was a lack of agreement on the topical issue of a ban or moratorium on neonicotinoids, and the evidential base was hotly contested. It is clear that pesticides currently play an essential part in achieving high levels of crop production in the UK and elsewhere, providing affordable food for consumers and contributing to our food security. Getting the right balance between the benefits of natural pollination services and the benefits of pesticides to crop production is crucial.
At the summit, there were passionate calls to support the use of the precautionary principle, which have been echoed in the debate today, to protect against further decline while additional evidence is gathered and analysed. These calls were countered by some bee health experts, bee organisations and, yes, the companies that produce neonicotinoids, which took a more cautious line based on the lack of any assessment of the impact of a ban on farmers’ use of alternative pesticide products and the impact on UK food production and food security.
Such divides are not reserved to the UK, and a split in opinion was also observed at an EU level. However, now that the Commission has approved an EU-wide moratorium on the three types of neonicotinoids beginning in December 2013, it is vital that the Government work with all parties concerned to ensure that any negative, unintended consequences on bee health—for example, the hon. Member for Stroud referred to the wider use of spray insecticides—do not materialise.
What plans do the Government have in place to support farmers in the build-up to and during the moratorium? Does the Minister agree that the moratorium provides an excellent opportunity to help farmers and growers to adopt integrated pest management and reduce the use of pesticides in line with the Government’s own pesticides action plan? Does the Minister agree with the Society of Biology, which has pushed for adequate and stable investment in agricultural research and environmental monitoring, in order to avoid periodic crises where sufficient evidence has not been available for necessary policy decisions? Will he outline how the Government will take advantage of the breathing space afforded by the moratorium to bridge the current gaps in scientific knowledge on the effects that neonicotinoids have on bees and other pollinators?
It is crucial that a monitoring programme is put in place to assess the full impact of a moratorium and the effect that it will have on wild and managed bees and on farmers and their crops. Will the Minister assure the House that an effective monitoring programme will be put in place? I am sure that he, like me, is aware of significant concerns raised in the scientific community that two years will not be sufficient to monitor the effect on bee health of a moratorium on neonicotinoids, not least because of the multiple variables in the natural and farmed environments.
Mr Harris
I see the Minister nodding. Does he agree that those concerns should not deter the Government from co-ordinating the most effective scientific monitoring programme possible so that we can learn from the moratorium period?
Although divides will undoubtedly pertain over a ban on neonicotinoids, during my bee health summit there was unanimous demand for a coherent strategy to reverse the decline in bee numbers and a recognition of the complex factors that need to be addressed, which go well beyond pesticides. Indeed, many warned that a ban on neonicotinoids could be seen as a panacea for the wider range of measures necessary to tackle bee decline. A moratorium does not represent a silver bullet.
The first event that I attended after being appointed to the Front Bench just over a year ago was the Friends of the Earth bee breakfast. I soon got over my initial shock and disappointment—nay, anger—at the lack of breakfast actually being served, because the point was to show what would be available to eat in the event of a world that no longer had bees. That was a very clever, though frightening, way of getting the point across. I can assure Members that people did finally come forward with the toast, butter, honey and jam. They made the crucial point that neonicotinoids and pesticides were important, but only as part of the wider environmental impact that is resulting in bee decline and hive collapse.
There are many causes behind pollinator decline, including changes in agricultural practice in the UK and across Europe; the growth in monocultural crops; the removal of hedges and other wildlife corridors; the increased use of fertilisers, pesticides, insecticides and herbicides; bee pests, including the Varroa mite and deadly pathogens such as Nosema; and the effect of climate change on patterns of flowering, hibernation and food availability. Those are all contributing to falling populations of bees and other pollinator insects. I have frequently voiced the opinion that if we allow ourselves to see the moratorium on neonicotinoids as a silver bullet for bee decline, we become complacent, think “Job done,” and fail to address the many other important issues that we face. It is clear that there is no single solution to the multiple threats that pollinators face, and that is why it is vital that we do not see the moratorium as a panacea.
Labour believes that the Government have a crucial part to play in reversing falling populations. We commend Friends of the Earth for their work in promoting their national bee action plan, which would put a comprehensive set of UK-wide measures in place to tackle the many drivers of pollinator decline. Though Ministers have cited a number of Government-led initiatives to improve bee health, these ultimately fail to meet the scale and urgency of the task in hand. Current failure to tackle habitat loss, which needs to be approached from both a conservation and a planning perspective, is a prime example of where the Government are failing to make headway. On the conservation side, in their biodiversity strategy for England, “Biodiversity 2020”, they have not set out specific measures to help threatened bee species or to protect or restore habitats most important to bees, such as lowland meadows and upland hay meadows. Worryingly, DEFRA’s latest habitat trend data show that those habitats are in decline. Will the Minister ensure that they are urgently restored and that specific measures are put in place to help threatened bee species?
The Government are set to publish planning practice guidance on biodiversity. That is an important opportunity to give councils guidance and impetus to protect and restore bee-friendly habitat through the planning system. However, so far there has been no evidence that the Government are planning to take that opportunity or even to issue the guidance for public consultation. Has the Minister spoken yet with his colleagues at the Department for Communities and Local Government regarding this matter, and if so, has he impressed upon them the importance of the issue?
Labour will continue to work with farmers and horticulturists and with bee and environmental organisations to create a future of secure and affordable food produce from a natural and farm environment that minimises the risk to our pollinators and enhances our countryside, wildlife, habitats and biodiversity. In order to do that, I urge the Government once again to use the moratorium period to fill the gaps in scientific knowledge of the effects of pesticides and to bring forward urgently a comprehensive national bee action plan to reverse the awful decline in bee health.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
This has been an extremely good debate and I thank the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) and her Committee for their report. She knows that we have had a short delay in responding to her, for the precise reasons that she had a short delay in producing the report. The circumstances have been changing quickly and we want to get it right, so I apologise to her and her Committee for that. My noble friend Lord de Mauley is responsible for this area, but the hon. Lady will appreciate that it falls to me to respond to the debate in this House.
I also thank the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) for his balanced remarks, which showed that this is a complex issue. I am interested in it, not least because as Minister for agriculture I know that bees and pollinators are crucial. I cannot underline sufficiently how important pollinators are to agriculture and horticulture, so of course I have that interest.
I also have an enormous personal interest in the issue. I spoke from the Opposition Benches about bees for a very long time. I spoke on the subject right back in June 1998, when I said:
“We need a step change in investment in the investigation of bee disease if we are to stem a worldwide phenomenon that is lapping at our doorstep and has the potential to become a crisis, both for the insect population and in economic terms”.—[Official Report, 17 June 2008; Vol. 477, c. 204WH.]
That is what I said in 1998, so people are now free to quote that back at me, but I meant it. We were arguing then in the context of very little work at Government level on bees. It took the best part of a decade before we pressed the previous Government to start taking the issue of bees and pollinators seriously, which they did: we now have the national bee unit and I think we now need to go one step further in our approach.
I welcome the opportunity to highlight what the Government have been doing in relation both to pollinators and pesticides and to our future plans. We take this issue extremely seriously. It is crucial. Contrary to what some have said, specifically in relation to neonicotinoid insecticides, we have kept the evidence under close and open-minded scrutiny and we continue to do so. We will restrict the use of insecticides. Obviously, neonicotinoids are now dealt with under the moratorium, but we will deal with others as well, if the evidence shows that there is a need to do so. I will come back to that point later.
The hon. Members for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) and for Glasgow South pointed out that pollinators face many other challenges. It is critical that one issue, such as the use of particular pesticides, does not dominate the debate, because so many other individual factors, when taken together, have a complex effect on our pollinator population.
Joan Walley
The Minister has said that the Government will take action if the evidence shows that they need to. Will he explain how that relates to the moratorium delivered by the European Commission?
Mr Heath
I will come back to the specific issue of neonicotinoids in a moment. The moratorium is in place, so we will, of course, fully comply with it. We do not not comply with decisions of that kind. I will return to the evidence, because it is a critical issue.
I repeat that bees are essential to the health of our natural environment and the prosperity of our farming industry. The “Biodiversity 2020” document has been mentioned. We have set ourselves the challenge of achieving an overall improvement in the status of our wildlife and preventing further human induced extinctions of known threatened species. We have put a landscape scale approach to biodiversity conservation at the heart of “Biodiversity 2020”. It is vital that that approach is effective in helping to conserve our most threatened species.
Nature improvement areas are beginning to make a difference for species on the ground. The 12 Government-funded NIAs are by no means the sum total of our ambitions. We want to see that approach rolled out more widely by enthusiasts across the country. The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) is seeing exactly that in her city. We want that to be extended and it is clearly already happening.
We want to make environmental stewardship more effective. As the House knows, we are in the process of negotiating CAP reform. It is not clear what the outcomes will be. We do not know the extent to which greening measures will be in pillar 1 or pillar 2, or the exact recipe that will emerge from our decisions on agri-environmental schemes that derive from pillar 2 or voluntary modulation. This matter is a key consideration in that context and I will certainly be pressing for it in the outcome.
Nia Griffith
The European Scrutiny Committee has requested a debate on CAP reform. Will the Minister say when that is likely to be scheduled?
Mr Heath
I am responsible for a large number of things in my Department, but the scheduling of House business is not one of them. In my previous post, I might have been able to give the hon. Lady an answer, but in my current post I cannot. To be honest, now would not be the best time to have that debate because we are just reaching what we hope will be a conclusive meeting of the Council of Ministers. After that, we will have a much clearer idea of the outcomes and how they will be effected in the UK.
We recognise that there is still a need for targeted conservation action for our most threatened species. Natural England’s species recovery programme is designed to help with projects to support priority species, such as the short-haired bumblebee. Many Members have made the point that we are talking not just about the honey bee, but about many other native bee species and other non-bee pollinators. My noble Friend Lord de Mauley has announced that he is considering the development of a more holistic health strategy to cover all pollinators. He has been meeting interested parties, such as Friends of the Earth, to explore what added value that approach could bring.
We will continue with our wider work to understand and counter the various factors that harm bees and other pollinators. DEFRA’s chief scientific adviser and Ministers have met a number of interested parties to discuss that work, including non-governmental organisations. We will seek to host discussions with other stakeholders over the summer.
As I have said, there are many things that we do not yet understand about the reductions in pollinator populations. There are many major factors, including the varroa mite, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael), foulbrood and the undoubted effects of climate change and environmental and ecological changes in this country. That is why some experts are very unclear as to the quantifiable effect of pesticides. The British Beekeepers Association keeps an open mind on that, as do we. We want to know what the connections are and to see the evidence.
Let us return to the issue of pesticides. As we heard in the debate, the European Commission recently adopted a ban on the use of three neonicotinoids on crops that are “attractive to bees” and on some cereal crops. The ban also covers amateur use, so the Government do not need to bring in an extension.
It is documented that we did not support action, the reason being that we had urged the Commission to complete a full assessment of the available scientific evidence, taking into account new field research that we had carried out. Let us talk about that because it is a serious issue. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North asked whether we reject laboratory evidence, but of course we do not; it is extraordinarily important. However, we would like some coherence between what we see in the laboratory and what we see in field trials. That does not make field trials the only thing that matter, but such a correlation is not presently there.
From laboratory tests we are clear that neonicotinoids have a toxicity for bees. We do not know, however, what the exposure is in a natural environment, and the two things go together. Many things are toxic but do not create a deleterious effect in the field simply because the exposure is too low. That is where we must do a lot more work, and that is exactly where we are commissioning it. We were clear that the work done by FERA was by no means a satisfactory field trial. We never pretended that it was; it had to be done quickly to meet a timetable—set not by us, but by others—to give at least some indication of whether that correlation was there. Incidentally, I will not accept criticism of FERA scientists on that basis. They are extremely good and do their work in a totally dispassionate and independent way on the best scientific principles. They were asked to do a quick piece of work—which they did—and that is why it was not peer reviewed, as would be normal practice. We felt it was important to put the matter in the hands of the Commission, which was about to make a decision on a highly contentious subject.
I make no apologies for recognising that there is, of course, a strong imperative to look at evidence that suggests a toxic consequence and, where possible, to take a precautionary approach to these matters. However, a precautionary approach is not as two-dimensional as sometimes suggested and must take into account the consequences of the action in question. The hon. Member for Glasgow South mentioned the economic consequences, and of course that is a factor, although not an overriding one.
Of far more concern is a point also raised by hon. Members about alternative pesticides that are fully legal under EU law and that it would be perfectly proper for people to use, such as pyrethroids, organophosphates or carbamates, because the potential is that they would be even more damaging to the pollinator population. That concern does not mean that we should not take action against neonicotinoids if the evidence is clear that they are causing problems in field conditions, but it was not unreasonable to say that the paucity of field-trial evidence was astonishing.
I do not have portfolio responsibility for this matter, but when I looked at it with a view sympathetic to what the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North was saying, I was amazed at how little evidence there was in field conditions, which I think exposes a failure of the scientific world to address the problem. I hope that we can play our part in persuading others across the European Union to take a more rational view of where we concentrate our research so that we get the evidence we need, and that is what we are trying to do. Although our assessment is that the risk to the bee population from neonicotinoids, as currently used, is low, we may be wrong and evidence may come forward from trials that shows otherwise. If such evidence is there, we shall, of course, accept it, but we need more complete evidence than we currently have.
The European Commission has committed itself to a review of evidence by 2015, which we want to be founded firmly on a strengthened scientific evidence base. We will play our part in that and are currently talking about the design of field trials that might be in place during the moratorium period, so that we can gather evidence, not just on the honey bee, but on other bee species as well. The FERA research was on the bumblebee rather than the honey bee. It is important that we understand how other species are affected.
Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD)
I take a great deal of pleasure in knowing how much my hon. Friend knows about the subject and how sincerely he takes it to heart, but does he understand that some of my constituents see the careful words he has just spoken as indicating that the Government are ducking and weaving? May I ask him, in the nicest possible way, whether the Government will be in a position to take a decision when the further research is done or whether they will want still more research to be that little bit more certain?
Mr Heath
Let me be very clear—I am not the world’s greatest scientist, although I have a scientific degree—that we cannot have scientific certainty; we can have only a balance of probabilities based on evidence. We think that the evidential basis for the decision is weak because we do not have evidence from field trials. If the evidence suggests that laboratory results are replicated in field conditions, we will want to take a decision, because we want to protect our pollinator populations. That is important.
I have very little time left because the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North needs to respond to the debate. She asked three questions, including one on the precautionary principle. I hope I have explained our approach on that. She asked about the research and the difference between laboratory and field studies, and about the EU directive on the sustainable use of pesticides, which I believe the Government will implement in full. More work needs to be done on pesticides across the board. It is a misrepresentation to say that the wicked seed companies are pulling the wool over the eyes of the rest of the world. We need transparency of evidence so we know exactly what is happening during the regulatory process and beyond. We are speaking to those companies to ensure that they provide the greatest possible transparency.
The hon. Lady asked what changed between the abstention and the decision to vote no. The answer is that we pressed and pressed again on the need to commission the evidence that we believe would have given a sound basis for the decision, but we did not secure agreement. That is why we are in the position we are in.
The Government are determined to do everything we can to protect our bees and pollinators. They are essential not only to our economy, but to our environment and our ecology. We will take all necessary steps to do so.
Joan Walley
This has been a useful debate. I thank all hon. Members who have spoken, including the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael), and my hon. Friends the Members for Gower (Martin Caton), for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) and for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy). The Environmental Audit Committee will consider what we can do to support my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East in her efforts to make Bristol the capital of green cities. We have had the Friends of the Earth breakfast. In view of our debate, the question is whether, at quarter to 3 or two minutes to 5, there is honey still for tea.
The Committee has sought to produce a timely and considered report. We intend our recommendations to be part of an ongoing process of parliamentary scrutiny. It might be in our interests that the Government response will be delayed, just as the integrated pest management report was delayed—it might be in our interests if the delay means we will get a more informed response, and if the Committee will have greater engagement on how such multifaceted issues can be developed. The breathing space of the moratorium we have as a result of the European Commission might help to take the debate forward, and we would welcome a fully informed response from the Government. However, we do not want the Government simply to dismiss the Committee’s work, and we do not want the lack of targets and everything else in the integrated pest control plan to continue. The Committee is a team and this has been a team effort. We want to engage with the Government on how we can ensure, working with farmers and business, and all those people in the British countryside—
Augmentative and Alternative Communication Services
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in this debate on this very important issue. I mean no disrespect to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, but it is a shame that Mr Speaker is not in the Chair, because he has been a great champion of speech, language and communication needs down the years. It is worth quoting his key comment from the Bercow report:
“'Communication is crucial. Recognising that is right in terms of equity for those in need and right in the national interest as we all wish to cut the costs of failure”.
Nowhere is that clearer than with augmentative and assistive communication. As that is rather a mouthful, I shall refer to it as AAC.
AAC is a series of aids, some complex and some not so complex, that assist those with neurological conditions that make it hard for them to express themselves. I was delighted when I received a commitment from the Prime Minister during Prime Minister’s questions in March that, as a result of the new commissioning landscape in the NHS, it would be available to more children and adults. I welcome that, and my aim is to ensure that it can actually happen.
I have a personal interest in this subject; it is not something I acquired when I was elected. I attended Hebden Green special school at the age of just three or four, and many of my fellow pupils would have benefited from these complex aids. It gives me real pleasure that one of my pupils, Alexis Egerton, recently gained a PhD thanks to utilising a complex powered aid—an example of how AAC can change people’s lives.
I am grateful to the Minister for the time he was able to spend yesterday meeting me and representatives from Communication Matters and the ACE Centre. I apologise for detaining him further today with a variation on the same theme. It is worth focusing on how the users of the aids feel about how the system currently works. Toby Hewson is an AAC user. He said:
“I cannot express adequately how frustrating it is for people with disabilities to have to battle with the system in the way we are forced to do...like a game of pass-the-parcel, people like me are sidelined and marginalised until we are exhausted.”
That is just an indication of the frustration so many people, and their families, feel about a system that has not yet worked properly for them.
I would be misleading the House and unfair to the Government if I did not make it clear that a great deal of progress has been made, not least through the Bercow report, the work of communication champion Jean Gross and the decision to ensure that most of the commissioning will occur at a national level. I hope that the Minister can act like a statin in the arteries of NHS England to allow what is good to occur, and for policy to be implemented in the way that I am sure everybody in the Department of Health wants it to be implemented.
However, I would also be misleading the House if I did not express some of the concerns about how policy is being implemented. The issue can be as fundamental as the funding mechanism deployed. I am sure that we would all agree that NHS England has to start from somewhere in deciding how much money it will allocate to this type of provision. I am reminded of the farmer leaning over a fence who is asked by a walker, “How do I get to Blackpool?” He replies, “Well, I wouldn’t start from here.” I would not start from where NHS England is starting, because it intends to use historical budgets, which might sound perfectly sensible—perfectly obvious perhaps—but if all that involves is ringing up a local hospital manager and asking how much he spends on AAC, when he might not even know what AAC is, I do not think it a particularly satisfactory starting point.
It is more frustrating still given the work done on levels of need by the communication champion—available to NHS England—and further reports since from the University of Manchester. We know the level of provision and unmet need: 0.014% of the population currently use a powered aid, but total need is 0.05%. I am sure that the Minister can do the maths. It is about 3.5 times what is currently being funded. I am not making the predictable everyday point that more must be spent—far from it—but I want NHS England to begin from a sensible starting point when making its decisions.
Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, my constituency neighbour, for giving way. I warmly commend his work to bring this matter to public attention. He and I have constituents at Highfurlong school and other special schools in Blackpool where these issues are very important. I have had correspondence from two constituents involved with the school. I know that Governments are not always keen on ring-fenced budgets. Does he agree, however, that NHS England should take account of the technology to come, rather than relying on past practice?
Paul Maynard
Indeed. We disagree on many things, but on that issue the hon. Gentleman and I can agree. In Highfurlong, we have an excellent provider of specialist communication provision, so I hope he shares my concern at the proposals, which look to be coming from the local council, that could result in Highfurlong being shut. It causes me great concern, as it does many parents in his constituency and mine, so I hope he will join me in ensuring that Highfurlong is not threatened in the way it might be.
The funding decisions being made have consequences for the proposed hub-and-spoke model. I would welcome a commitment from the Minister that clinical commissioning groups should not interpret the existence of specialist hubs as a justification for winding down their investment in local spokes. That, to me, is crucial, if only because of the issue of complexity. The hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) alluded to that.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree with me and my constituents with children using these important assisted technologies that what matters is not just providing the equipment, but the cost of providing training and support, without which children and adults cannot benefit fully from these important technologies?
Paul Maynard
I thank my hon. Friend for that perceptive contribution. The concern is that NHS England’s budget for AAC will not be sufficient for training. The only way that the hub-and-spoke model can work effectively is if the hub can train up more people in the spokes to deliver the more complex tools. Complexity is at the heart of the problem in the structure. AAC is one of five areas for which complex disability equipment is to be commissioned nationally—incidentally, another is artificial eyes, the national centre for which is based in my constituency. It would be remiss of me not to congratulate that centre during an Adjournment debate on a parallel issue. As I was saying, though, complexity is the key: it determines whether a patient is treated at the hub or at the spoke.
A stroke patient will receive a relatively straightforward medical diagnosis—it might be a devastating incident in their personal life, but its medical nature is relatively simple. None the less, what will restore the power of communication to someone who has lost it will be a complex piece of kit, yet under the current rules, as I understand them, it would be commissioned in the spoke. If the skills are not there to utilise that piece of equipment, that stroke patient will not benefit, so complexity of need has to be balanced by the complexity of the product being supplied. That is crucial.
The other issue on which I want to draw out the Minister is the concerns of worried providers in the voluntary sector about their ability to bid for commissions from NHS England. There has been a long-running battle over whether AAC should be based in the education or the health sector. It is now clear that it will be based in the health sector, but one of the key elements of what NHS England seeks to commission is an educational component in a multi-disciplinary team. That component is most often found in organisations such as the ACE Centre, the Dame Hannah Rogers Trust, near the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), or the Percy Hedley school, up in the constituency of the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson). They all have immense expertise, yet they greatly fear that the mood music emanating from NHS England suggests that they will be unable to bid for such provision, because of an understanding that it must be supplied by an NHS provider. That seems strange, given all that the Government have said down the years about trying to ensure a broader spectrum of provision—that more civil society organisations can provide such services. I hope the Minister can provide some reassurance on that.
I would also like a commitment from the Minister—this is another fundamental aspect—that this really is a health issue and no longer just an education issue. I hear far too many heartbreaking stories of children who are equipped with complex equipment when in school but, because it is funded by the Department for Education, lose it when they leave. It is not just a piece of kit they are losing; it is their ability to express themselves as fully formed adults. That is why it is so important that this becomes a health issue, not just an education issue.
My final query is rather technical—I beg the Minister’s forgiveness, but this goes back to acting like a statin in NHS England. A clinical reference group has been set up, but it has yet to meet—it is in a form of limbo, as it were. There is yet greater uncertainty, not merely because it has not met, but because the gentleman who chairs it, one Dr Thursfield, is shortly to retire from his academic post at the University of Birmingham. There is grave concern that his uncertain status in the clinical reference group is imperilling its ability to meet, take decisions and do its job. Alexis Egerton—the gentleman I mentioned earlier—was disappointed not to be appointed as a patient representative on the clinical reference group. I have known Alexis since my youngest days. He did his PhD on the funding of AAC provision, and it would be immensely valuable to the Government and the nation as a whole if we could find a way to allow him to play a role in that.
Finally—I want to ensure that the Minister has time to respond fully—will he bear in mind that the right to have a voice is a fundamental human right? We have an opportunity in this place to represent our constituents. If, in doing so, we give a voice to some who hitherto did not have one, we will have spent a useful half-hour in this debate. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I apologise to hon. Members for having to raise this point of order at the end of a passionate speech in an important debate. I seek your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker. Today I had a telephone call from someone in the press asking me to comment on a parliamentary question I had asked and for which they had the answer. Unfortunately I was not party to that answer, as it had not been delivered to me. When I contacted the Table Office, it could not elucidate either. I was, however, able to obtain a scanned copy from the press. Would you agree, Mr Deputy Speaker, that this is not the way to conduct business and ensure that Members are appropriately briefed?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
It certainly is not good form; in fact, it is very bad form. The Member should always know at least at the same time, but preferably before. The matter is now on record and I hope that those on the Front Bench will pass it on, so that we can get to the bottom of it.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)
I am really grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) for raising this issue, and for his work, together with that of colleagues, as a member of the all-party parliamentary group on speech and language difficulties. An occasion such as this is particularly valuable, as was the meeting that we had yesterday, in ensuring that Ministers focus on issues that might otherwise not get attention. I learned a lot from the meeting yesterday, and from my hon. Friend’s impassioned speech today. He clearly speaks with real authority on this subject. I was struck by his point about the lad who ended up with a PhD as a result of the support that these facilities can provide. He made the point very powerfully that they can change lives.
Augmentative and alternative or assistive communication is one of the more specialised areas of health and education provision. The number of children who will require support in this way is relatively small, perhaps less than 0.5% of the population, so it is important that we do not lose sight of them. My hon. Friend rightly made the point that the ability to speak and communicate is a pretty basic human right, and that it should be recognised as such.
Augmented communication has the potential to have a tremendous beneficial impact on the health and well-being of those whose condition places barriers between themselves and others, which until recently were insurmountable, and indeed, on their families and friends. Technological and therapeutic advances have in recent years revolutionised the support that can be given to those who have lost, or never had, the tools of speech and language that allow us all to interact and that are critical to development, to education, to work and to living one’s life. Augmentative and assistive communication—AAC—aids range from tools for paper-based communication to pretty sophisticated electronic equipment.
Support in the past has not always been of sufficient consistency and quality, and the Bercow review in 2007 and the subsequent work of the Communication Champion, Jean Gross, have helped to identify systemic improvements, culminating in a new approach to the commissioning of AAC that began just a few months ago. It is worth pointing out that the new system is in its very early days. I was pleased that my hon. Friend acknowledged that it had the potential to work effectively. It is perhaps understandable that we have not got it quite as we would want it to be, given the early stage that we are at, but I agree that it has enormous potential. There is significant clinical consensus behind the new approach, and I am proud to say that it has been developed from the new structures of commissioning that this Government have introduced into the NHS.
In April this year, NHS England took on responsibility for the direct commissioning of specialised assessment and the provision of augmentative and assistive communication aids for adults, children and young people. NHS England’s role as an independent national commissioner is particularly suited to the effective commissioning of extremely complex, yet relatively low volume, services of this kind. Let us bear in mind that the patients who require AAC aids have extremely complex needs and in many cases require bespoke equipment that has been designed for them. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) mentioned the training involved in the use of such equipment. It could not feasibly be provided by small-scale local services. Assessment and provision is needed by specialised tertiary providers with their concentration of expertise.
Previously, we had no national commissioning of AAC services and improvement across the board was essential. There was no standard or nationally consistent definition of those services, which were the commissioning and funding responsibility of the NHS. The effect of that was variation in the organisations commissioning and funding specialised AAC services and, crucially, inequitable access to them. There was a mix of non-NHS commissioning agencies, including social care and the education sector, to which my hon. Friend referred, and charity and third sector funding agencies that were commissioning the assessment and provision of specialised AAC aids. It was haphazard, depending very much on where people lived. That was unfair to those in need, and far from ideal for commissioners or providers.
That has now changed. NHS England—committed to ensuring national consistent commissioning of high quality, equitable and effective specialised services—has worked with the expert partners on its clinical reference group for complex disability to develop for the first time a nationally consistent specification for specialised AAC aids, which was subject to public consultation. The specification has allowed a clear demarcation of the responsibilities of clinical commissioning groups in relation to less specialised AACs—around 90% of the total provision. The highly specialised services will be commissioned by NHS England. It will be an important role for NHS England to work to support CCGs in their commissioning of the less specialised end of the spectrum and to ensure that we build capacity rather than lose it, as my hon. Friend feared could happen. If we get this right, the potential of having this specialist team working nationally with local commissioners could be significant.
In implementing the specification, NHS England will draw on the recommendations of the Bercow review and the Government communication champion to consider, in particular, how best to ensure more consistent and responsive commissioning of AAC aids across England and the implications of meeting unmet need. We know from recent research from Communication Matters that there is variation in service provision across England—the postcode lottery to which I referred—and inconsistency in identifying, assessing and providing AAC services.
A key priority is therefore to ensure that commissioning arrangements for this specialised service are placed on a much more robust and equitable footing across England. NHS England is working with its clinical reference groups and area teams to identify areas where there may be inequalities and where additional resources may be required to bring about better access. The clinical expertise both embedded in the organisation and accessed through its close association and close partnership working with organisations such as ACE—Aiding Communication in Education—will be decisive in this. I met Anna Reeves of ACE yesterday, and I would like to pay tribute to the amazing work she has done in leading the case for much better access to these services. She has worked tirelessly in that regard and should be credited for doing so.
I would also like to acknowledge the potential benefits of clinically-led commissioning of services for children with special educational needs as part of new joint arrangements, which will also provide far more tailored support, focused on the health and lifestyle outcomes for the child, for the developmental needs of children who require AAC aids. The Children and Families Bill sets out a framework for a new integrated approach to meeting the needs of children and young people with special educational needs. This will include many children, potentially the majority, of children in need of AAC aids.
In brief, the Bill’s provisions will get clinical commissioning groups and local authorities—and, in some cases, the NHS Commissioning Board, where it is acting as a commissioner of services for a child or young person—to enter into joint arrangements to assess, plan and commission the services needed by children and young people with special educational needs. Each child’s improvement outcomes, and the services they need to deliver them, will be captured in the education, health and care plan, to which the relevant commissioners will contribute. That is a much more joined-up approach than we have ever had in the past.
The new arrangements will be introduced in 2014, Parliament allowing. Twenty pathfinder local authorities are piloting new approaches to integrated assessments and the plans currently. The amended Bill now includes a duty on CCGs to secure the services that they agree the individual needs and which comprise the education, health and care plan. We have specifically required in the mandate for the NHS—the Government’s priorities—the need for improvement, through partnership working, to support children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities, and for ensuring that children have access to the services identified in the agreed care plan. AAC support will be a significant part of these plans for many children.
NHS England and CCGs will need to work closely with local authorities and, of course, health and wellbeing boards, which will include the local authority director of children’s services and the local healthwatch. That is the vehicle for a consensual local identification of needs and a local strategy for meeting them. The health and wellbeing board must, as our guidance makes clear, have particular regard for hard-to-reach groups and those with complex conditions, which will require more specialised health services, as well as ensuring it has an in-depth understanding of more widespread health needs among the population.
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) on initiating this important debate. In the allocation of resources and the approval of plans, what mechanisms for appeal will there be for individuals who feel that they have not been fairly treated, or indeed for areas that feel that?
Norman Lamb
There will be the potential to challenge and question to ensure that the individual is satisfied that their case has been properly heard, but I will also write to the right hon. Gentleman to fill in the details further to ensure that he understands the position fully.
Let me make a quick point about the historical budgets to which my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys referred. To start with, NHS England has worked on the basis of the amount spent hitherto. It is important to say that work is very much ongoing on this matter, and it is absolutely recognised that it is important to get it right and to assess the level of need so that we can identify how much needs to be spend on it. This is not a done deal and he should not assume that this is the end of the story. He also made a point about organisations with great expertise which could be excluded from being able to play a part in this. I can reassure him that they will be able to bid to do work. He also made the point about loss of equipment on leaving school, and it is really important that that is avoided; that sort of thing is utterly crazy and we must ensure continuity. As he rightly said, this is a health issue and it must be recognised as such. He talked about the hub-and-spoke issue. The relationship between the expert team nationally and the CCGs has the potential to work well to build capacity within the system to improve the level of expertise available and to ensure a more consistent approach.
I hope that what I have said today provides significant reassurance to hon. Members about the robustness of the new approach to deliver AAC aids, not least in the role of NHS England in leading the development of expert service specifications and implementing them in a national programme of commissioning to deliver improved and responsive communication support. We are not complacent and, together with NHS England, we understand that more needs to be done to ensure absolute consistency across England, so that everyone who needs it has access to high-quality, equitable and effective AAC support. We have in place the right system to deliver that; my profound belief is that we will shortly be able to recognise NHS England, in this regard, as an exemplar of the effective design and commissioning of specialised services.
Question put and agreed to.
Westminster Hall
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Drugs
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
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This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley, in this important debate. I am pleased to see the Minister here, as well as the colleagues from the Select Committee on Home Affairs who said that they would come. I pay tribute to those Committee members who participated in drafting and agreeing the report: the hon. Members for Northampton North (Michael Ellis), for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood), for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) and for South Ribble (Lorraine Fullbrook), my hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) and for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) and the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless). In particular, I commend the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and our colleague the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon, who first pressed for the inquiry. The hon. Member for Cambridge is in his place. Like me, he is torn between two debates in the House on home affairs. We are occupying the time of Home Office Ministers in both Westminster Hall and the main Chamber: gladly, not the same Minister. I am also grateful to Committee staff, particularly the specialist Ellie Scarnell, for all their hard work.
The Committee’s report, published on 3 December 2012, is entitled “Breaking the Cycle”. It is our first report on drugs for more than a decade; the last time we considered the issue, in 2002, a young Member of the House, the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), was on the Committee, which should give other Committee members heart that they have a great political future ahead of them. We spent a year looking in depth at drug education, prevention and treatment for drug addiction, at reducing the supply of drugs in both the United Kingdom and abroad and at the evidence on which drugs policy was based. We visited two countries: Colombia, where we travelled into the jungle to see where cocaine is produced, and Portugal, to examine the drug laws there. We had nearly 200 evidence submissions and 48 conclusions and recommendations. We heard views from people as diverse as Sir Richard Branson, Russell Brand and Peter Oborne. The ex-president of Switzerland, Ruth Dreifuss, also gave evidence to the Committee.
This debate, for which we canvassed so many people’s support, is current. Just today, there was a letter in The Times calling for an independent review of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, signed by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) as the former leader of the Green party, Professor David Nutt, Sting and many others, including the hon. Member for Cambridge and myself. Public response to the report has been overwhelming. Society cares deeply about the issue, because it affects us all and the costs are borne by each and every one of us. In the United Kingdom alone, drug addicts commit between one third and one half of all acquisitive crime, and drugs cost our health and justice system £15.3 billion a year.
The debate following the report’s publication caused great excitement in the press. The Mail on Sunday front page read:
“MPs pave way to legalise drugs”.
The front page of the more sober Guardian said that MPs were calling for
“a royal commission on failing drugs laws”.
It has become a feature of reports by the Home Affairs Committee and other Committees that we do not just make recommendations; we also monitor them to see whether they have been implemented. I call it our traffic light report. Each recommendation is awarded a colour: red when the Government have done nothing about it, yellow when they are moving in the right direction and green if the recommendation has been accepted. After all—you will know this, Mr Bayley, from your distinguished service on Select Committees —there is no point in having a Select Committee inquiry, going into a subject in depth and providing recommendations if nobody wants to implement them.
I am pleased to say that the Government have accepted or partially accepted just under 50% of the conclusions and recommendations in our drugs report. That is not as much as in other reports, but they are moving in the right direction. It was, however, disappointing that they rejected our main recommendation calling for a royal commission, although I warmly welcome the Deputy Prime Minister’s support for it.
I am delighted that the Minister of State, Home Department, the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), who is here today, is following our recommendations and considering drugs policies abroad, visiting countries such as Denmark and Sweden. In particular, I am glad that he is considering visiting Portugal, or may have done so already; we will hear his travel plans and where he has been in his speech. We visited Portugal, as I have said, and saw at first hand what the Portuguese are doing. I hope that when he went to Portugal he met, or that if he goes to Portugal he will meet, Dr Fernando Leal da Costa, the Portuguese Health Minister, who was kind enough to attend our drugs conference in September and give the 200-plus attendees a fascinating insight into the impact of their policies.
We decided to call our report “Breaking the Cycle” because we identified a number of critical intervention points where, if the right action is taken, the devastating cycle of drug addiction can be broken. The first critical intervention point is during childhood. Prevention is better than cure, and the education system has a vital role to play in ensuring that children and young people resist peer pressure and understand the risks involved in taking drugs. We found that drugs education provision was patchy. The Department for Education noted that most primary and secondary schools provide it once a year at most. A number of our witnesses were highly critical of the quality of awareness provided in the education system. In some cases, they believed that it was likely to inspire children to take drugs rather than the opposite.
The Government have now told us that education will be their focus in the third year of the drugs strategy. In our view, we cannot wait three years for a resolution to the issue. This is the earliest possible chance to break the cycle of drug addiction, and we cannot squander it. Local authorities are being left to decide and fund the most appropriate way of educating children about the dangers of drugs. As focus rightly moves from enforcement for possession to tackling supply and demand, it is vital that our children are aware that there are more risks to drug taking than just being arrested.
Another critical intervention point is recovery from addiction. In 2011-12, some 96,070 people were given a prescription for a substitute drug as a method of treatment. Another 30,000 people were given a prescription and some sort of counselling. Only 1,100 people were in residential rehabilitation.
If the Government are serious about their policy of recovery, they must improve the quality and range of treatments available. There is an over-reliance on prescription treatment, and no recognition of the importance of also treating the psychological symptoms of addiction. Each individual needs a treatment plan tailored to their needs. Intensive treatment is more expensive in the short term, but if it breaks the cycle of drug addiction, the long-term benefits to society are enormous and the cost to society is greatly reduced.
Treatments that we know work, such as residential rehabilitation and buprenorphine as an alternative to methadone, are under-utilised. In 2011, more than 400 deaths were related to methadone. Treatment must also be supplemented by housing, training and employment support, if required, because the end goal of recovery is integration into society. A league table of treatment centre performance should be established so that patients do not waste time and money on care that is not up to scratch. The Department of Health and the Home Office should lead jointly on drugs to ensure that the focus on recovery is maintained. If we reduce demand, we automatically reduce supply.
Many groups are working hard to bring such matters to the Government’s attention, and we met some of them during our inquiry. I want to commend the work being done by Mitch Winehouse, and the living memorial that he has set up to his daughter Amy. He has been one of the most vocal and articulate voices about the provision of rehabilitation support to so many people.
Prison is another critical intervention point. Tackling drug addiction, as the Secretary of State for Justice has said, is vital to the prevention of costly reoffending. Some 29% of prisoners reported having a drug problem when they arrived in prison, 6% developed a drug problem after having arrived and 24% reported that it was easy or very easy to get drugs there. Last year, Her Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons, Nick Hardwick, reported an increase in the number of people in prison with prescription drug addiction.
The Committee visited Her Majesty’s Prisons Brixton and Holloway, and we were impressed by their voluntary testing schemes, which were having a real impact on addiction. I want to thank the governors of Brixton, Edmond Tullett, and of Holloway, Julia Killick, for helping to make that happen. We were, however, concerned that funding for such schemes was under threat.
I welcome the Justice Secretary’s commitment to a rehabilitation revolution, with inmates being met at the prison gates to be given support. To identify those who need rehabilitation, we need compulsory testing on entry to and exit from prison, including for the use of prescription drugs. We must also ensure that the voluntary sector, with its valuable experience, has a chance to win rehabilitation contracts against large procurement companies such as G4S that are cheaper but, frankly, just do not have the expertise.
The Committee’s visit to Miami alerted us to the epidemic scale of prescription drug addiction in the United States. More than half of American drug addicts are prescription drug addicts. It is difficult to measure the exact scale of the problem in the UK, because treatment is by general practitioners and is not treated as drug addiction. However, valuable reports by newspapers such as The Times highlight that it is a ticking time bomb in British society that we are doing very little to address. It is a problem not just in our prisons, but right across the country.
I was pleased that the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), who has responsibility for public health, highlighted her concerns about the abuse of prescription medication several months ago. I hope that the Government will heed the Committee’s warning and push the issue up their agenda as a matter of urgency. In Miami, we heard about the first prosecution of a doctor for giving out multiple prescription drugs. People sometimes say that if we look at America, we see what might very well happen in Europe: it is on an epidemic scale, and I urge the Government to consider that very carefully.
If prescription drugs are a powder keg awaiting a spark, legal highs have already exploded. In 2012, the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction identified 73 new drugs in Europe, which is 10 times the number of new substances identified in 2006. A survey on the drug use of 15 to 24-year-olds found that 8% of them had taken a legal high.
The drugs market is changing, and as well as warning our children of the dangers of heroin, cocaine and ecstasy, we need to worry about the creation of a culture in which people can order so many legal highs for next-day delivery through the internet. The Government have introduced temporary banning orders, but just last month Maryon Stewart, who gave evidence to our inquiry, found legal highs on sale on Amazon. There are 200 different substances that are not covered by our drug laws, and we do not know the dangers of those psychoactive substances because, clearly, we have not tried them. Temporary banning orders work, and once a substance has been banned it can no longer be used, but what are the Government doing about the five substances that are created for every one that is banned?
New Zealand is introducing a law to regulate such substances, under which the requirement to prove that the drugs are safe is a duty on the manufacturer. I do not want to extend the Minister’s travel plans, because I know how much he likes staying in his constituency, having been a Foreign Office Minister and gone all over the world, as he did so assiduously, but we should look at what New Zealand is doing. I am suggesting not that he needs to go there, but that he engage with what New Zealand Ministers have done, because we should adopt such good practice in future. I urge the Government to follow our recommendation to make retailers liable for the harms caused by untested psychoactive substances that they have sold. Just as a garage would be responsible for a crash involving a faulty car, legal high sellers should be accountable for the effects of their products.
The cost of ineffective drugs policy reaches far wider than the United Kingdom. During the Committee’s visit to Colombia, we witnessed how the devastating impact of drugs extends far beyond the addict. In 2010, coca was cultivated on 149,100 hectares in Andean countries—an area roughly one and a half times the size of Hong Kong—that cannot afford to fight the drugs war on their own. The value of the global cocaine market is £543 billion, while Bolivia’s national budget, for example, is just £1.69 billion. Despite damage to their land, farmers receive only 1% of the revenue from global cocaine sales. When the Committee met the President of Colombia, Juan Manuel Santos, he asked us why his policemen, his judges and his citizens should die in the war on drugs when members of the British public were the ones who wanted to use those drugs. The responsibility lies with us.
I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to President Santos and his soldiers and police officers who, day after day, die protecting us from the scourge of cocaine. We owe them a huge debt of gratitude. I shall be meeting him this afternoon as he is in London and I will again convey the thanks of our country. I also want to thank the Colombian ambassador to the United Kingdom, His Excellency Ambassador Rodriguez, for his assistance with our visit to Colombia and for keeping us informed with a regular dialogue.
Some 85% of profits are earned by distributors of drugs in the United States or Europe, and the United Nations estimates that global drugs profits stand at £380 billion, the vast majority of which ends up in our financial system. Antonio Maria Costa, the former head of the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, has said:
“I cannot think of one bank in the world that has not been penetrated by mafia money.”
Banks with British bases, such as Coutts and HSBC, have been found guilty of laundering drugs money, yet there have been no individual prosecutions, just fines, which are basically a drop in the ocean for multinational banks. Those companies need to hear the rattling of handcuffs in their boardrooms. We must bring forward new legislation to extend the personal criminal liability of those who hold senior positions in our banks and who have been found wanting for not dealing with money laundering.
The Financial Services Authority did not come up to scratch on that issue, as it ignored almost $380 billion of money laundered by the drug cartels and dealers. I hope—I look to the Minister for assurance on this matter—that the new Financial Conduct Authority will be much tougher than the FSA, because we were not overly convinced by the FSA’s work.
After a year scrutinising UK drugs policy, it was clear to the Committee that many aspects of our current drugs policy were simply not working and needed to be reviewed. When the then Lord Chancellor, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), gave evidence to the Committee, he told us that the war on drugs had failed. The Prison Governors Association also recently said that we needed to rethink our approach to drugs. We are not dealing with the dealers or focusing on the users. Drugs still cost thousands of lives and billions of pounds each year.
People are already describing Guinea-Bissau as the world’s first narco-state. That is why we felt that, even after a year’s inquiry, the visits that we made and the evidence that we took, it was vital that the Government established a royal commission. We felt that the best way forward was to bring all the people with great expertise, including those who have been affected by drugs, before a royal commission headed by a High Court judge so that we can study in huge depth this subject that even we, after a year, have not got to the bottom of.
I urge the Minister to reconsider our proposal on a royal commission. I think that he supports the idea of one, but the problem is with other parts of the coalition Government. It is the policy of his party and his leader, the Deputy Prime Minister, to support a royal commission, and it is a policy that has been advocated by the hon. Member for Cambridge. I cannot remember the quote of the Deputy Prime Minister, but he once lavishly praised the hon. Gentleman, saying that as far as he was concerned, on certain aspects of policy, what the hon. Member for Cambridge said went. I hope very much that the royal commission can be established and that the Government will look at all aspects of drugs policy, so that there is a proper debate. We do not want a situation in which politicians run away as soon as the word “drugs” is mentioned and everyone hides under the table. We want a proper and open discussion, as I had in Leicester. I asked the Leicester Mercury to conduct a citizens’ poll to tell me what the people felt about the matter. I pay tribute to the Leicester Mercury and all the other local papers that were part of that debate. Let the people decide; let them put forward their views to a royal commission. I believe that that is the proper way forward.
To those who say that a royal commission could last forever, let me say that we thought about that, which is why we suggested that it should have an end date of 2015—that magic year in the history of our country when all things will change and all things will become visible. This matter is a great challenge for us and for our generation of politicians and I hope that we will rise to it.
Hugh Bayley (in the Chair)
I think that the Chamber should hear from the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert).
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley, and to follow the Chair of the Select Committee, especially after his kind words. I am not sure that they were entirely accurate. I think that he was referring to the draft Communications Data Bill, which he and I and various others have discussed in the past.
I congratulate the Chair of the Select Committee on having the courage to ensure that the Committee considered this issue, because it is so sensitive and can lead to a huge amount of concern in some parts of the press. I also congratulate him on his leadership and on his speech, which took much of the content out of what I was planning to say, so I will only focus on a few key issues. There is a huge amount in this very thick and detailed report, and I support it completely.
I want to begin with the basic principles of how we start to work. First and fairly obviously, drugs are harmful. They are harmful whether they are legal or illegal; whether they are cocaine, marijuana, paracetamol or one of the new legal highs. They all have harms, and many of them also have benefits. As we say in one of the key parts of the report, the question is how we deal with those harms. Paragraph 14 of the report states:
“Drug use can lead to harm in a variety of ways: to the individual who is consuming the drug; to other people who are close to the user; through acquisitive and organised crime, and wider harm to society at large. The drugs trade is the most lucrative form of crime, affecting most countries, if not every country in the world.”
The principal aim of the Government drugs policy should be first and foremost to minimise those harms, but how do we go about doing that? How do we reduce the harms from alcohol and heroin and the harms from prescription drugs, which can be abused? For more than 40 years now, the answer has principally been to separate drugs into a category of legal or illegal—I use the term loosely of course because the drug itself cannot be legal or illegal, but possession can be. For the illegal ones, we have focused principally on the criminal justice approach—policing, courts, prisons and all the sanctions of the Home Office.
When the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 was passed—interestingly, it has never been reviewed since 1971—the debate was all about how it would lead to the end of the use of illegal drugs. That was the Act’s aim. It certainly has not worked in that respect. If we were in a world now where no one had any of the drugs for which possession was illegal, we would be having a very different debate.
The Act simply has not worked, and that has been very expensive. The European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction has estimated that 0.48% of the UK’s GDP is spent on our overall drugs strategy. I think that that is the highest rate of expenditure in Europe, and yet for many drugs, we have among the highest rates of use in Europe. We are spending lots of money, but there is lots of drug use—the Act is just not working.
In the process, we have hit many people’s lives. We have left people to languish in jail for a long time. Also, we have made people who possess small amounts of drugs go to jail, and many of them suffer problems trying to live and work afterwards. Even a caution for the most minor offences can still affect people’s ability to live and work. So we need to change things.
I have heard it said—there is some basis for saying it—that drug use is currently down. However, that is only true when looking at the drugs that we have made illegal. What we know—as the Chair of the Select Committee highlighted—is that there are now many other new psychoactive substances that people are moving to because of the pressure that we are putting on for legal reasons. We have no idea whether encouraging people to stop taking marijuana and to start taking one of the new things that they can find legally online somewhere is better or worse for them. We have no idea whether the harms caused by the other drugs will be better or worse. So we may well be pushing people to things that are far worse than the things that we are trying to clamp down on.
We also have to look at this issue in the round. We have to look at the pressures of alcohol. I asked one of the police officers who gave evidence if his officers would rather face, at the end of an evening, a group of four men who were drunk or a group of four men who were stoned. Most police officers would far rather deal with the people who had used marijuana. We have to look at the impacts of some of these other issues.
As the Chairman of the Select Committee quite rightly said, one of the key things that we say is that we need to look again at this issue. These days, we do not allow legislation to sit by for 40 years without looking at it; we try to have post-legislative scrutiny to see whether a law is working and doing what it is supposed to do. That is why the Select Committee has called for a royal commission to look at the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. That is what our report says, and we are not the only people saying it by any stretch of the imagination.
The UK Drug Policy Consortium has done six years of work on the issue and it has called for many of the same things that we have called for; I commend all its detailed publications. Huge numbers of organisations say what our report says; I could mention many of them, such as Transform and Release. Also, we are increasingly getting senior people who have had experience of this fight, including senior people from MI5, MI6 and the police, who say, “No. We’re not doing it the right way. We have to change.” In Cambridgeshire, Tom Lloyd, the former chief constable, who has huge experience of dealing with the criminal justice approach to drugs, is very clear—indeed, categorical—that we need to change.
Our Committee has not gone as far as some suggest. The Chair of our Committee referred to the article in The Mail on Sunday, which suggested that we support full legalisation, but that is not what we recommended. However, we supported a proposal that was made more than 10 years ago by the Home Affairs Committee and supported by the Prime Minister, as he is now. That proposal was very clear, and the Prime Minister voted in favour of a proposal that we also endorse. It is that
“we recommend that the Government initiate a discussion within the Commission on Narcotic Drugs of alternative ways—including the possibility of legalisation and regulation—to tackle the global drugs dilemma.”
That is what the Prime Minister said 10 years ago. The key thing in that recommendation is that not only legalisation should at least be considered; we also have to regulate. That may or may not be the right answer, which is why we need a royal commission.
Our Committee called for a royal commission and we published this detailed, thick report. I was impressed that, within only an hour or so of its being published, the Home Secretary was able to say no, nothing in the report was new and that people did not need to learn from it. That was an impressively fast response. I commend my hon. Friend the Drugs Minister for the work that he has been doing on this issue. There have been some positive things, and the full Government response was rather more positive than the initial comment that came out from the Home Office.
The Chair of our Committee described the Government response as supporting about half of our recommendations. In a number of cases, the suggestion from the Government was that what we were recommending was already being done. We could argue about the extent to which that is true, but my summary is that the Government response was largely saying no to most of our new suggestions.
However, I strongly welcome two things in the Government response to our report, because I think that they will make the difference. Again, I strongly commend my hon. Friend the Drugs Minister for his work to get them into the Government response. One of them is set out at the top of page 15, where an interesting sentence says:
“High quality drug treatment is the most effective way of reducing drug misuse and reducing drug related mortality.”
I agree completely with that. To start off by putting treatment as the principal aim rather than the criminal justice focus is exactly what many of us have been arguing for. We now need the Government to follow through on their own statement that we need to focus on the “high quality drug treatment” and not on the policing or the criminal justice. That fits with our recommendation that we need to get the Department of Health far more involved.
With the greatest of respect to my hon. Friend the Drugs Minister, having a Drugs Minister based in the Home Office means that the starting point will always be the criminal justice-led approach. There is co-operation and working with the Department of Health, but many other countries have the lead for drugs policy based in their departments of health—or their equivalent—because the focus needs to be on treatment, as the Government here have now accepted.
The other key thing that came out of the Government response was the international comparators study. I was very pleased to see that. During our evidence sessions, it was clear that although there was a stated commitment, in the words of the Drugs Strategy 2010,
“to review new evidence on what works in other countries and what we can learn from it”,
that commitment was being honoured—certainly at ministerial level—in a slightly more relaxed way than perhaps some of us might have liked. It is absolutely right that we should proactively look at other countries to see what they achieve.
My hon. Friend the Minister has been to Portugal already, and I am sure that he will talk a bit later about what he saw there. When our Committee went to Portugal, we saw a few things that were really striking. The Portuguese model is often misdescribed. In Portugal, it is still an offence to possess large amounts of any drug and it is still a criminal offence to supply drugs. The key difference is that possession of a relatively small amount of any drug—up to 10 days’ personal supply, and there are estimated figures for what that amount is—is treated outside the criminal justice system. There are dissuasion commissions that deal with those cases in a non-judicial way; there is no criminal sanction and the focus is on treatment. The aim is to have individualised care, to make sure that people can get out of using drugs.
We were impressed by how fast people could be set up with treatment in Portugal. There are often delays in the UK in trying to find appropriate treatment facilities. In Portugal, people said that it was very frustrating that sometimes they would have to wait for two days, which would be amazingly fast for many of the people in my constituency who I have spoken to. So Portugal has this process whereby people who are addicts are pushed towards treatment. There are other ways that they can be dealt with, but none of them involves dealing with the criminal justice process and none of them affects people’s ability to work, except in a very few special circumstances.
The Portuguese approach was controversial when it was established but it seems to have worked, and there are a number of ways to look at it. According to the official Portuguese figures, the number of long-term addicts has declined from more than 100,000 people before the new policy was enacted, which was about 10 years ago, to half that number today. The Portuguese have also found less drug use in prison.
What was striking when we went to Portugal and spoke to politicians from across the political range—from the Christian democrats on the right to the communists on the far left—was that none of them disagreed with the policy. With the Christian democrats, we had an interesting meeting with a very impressive woman from the party who had opposed the policy when it was introduced. The Christian democrats had made all sorts of dire predictions about what would happen—the sort of thing that we can read in The Daily Mail—but they said, “We were wrong. We didn’t see increased drug use, which we were concerned about; we didn’t see drug tourism; we didn’t see any of the problems.”
The live debate in Portugal around drugs policy is whether treatment should be funded on a national or regional basis. That was the debate across the political spectrum. Nobody was questioning whether the decriminalisation of possession of small amounts was the right thing or wrong thing to do. The hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), who was leading us on that occasion, made a point of asking everybody whether they agreed in principle with the policy. Not a single person disagreed; we could not find anybody who did so. We spoke to the police, who had originally opposed it, and they said, “Actually, this has been better for us for policing. We don’t have to spend so much time on people who are addicts, who are small users. Instead, they can help us to deal with the people who are dealing, who are causing the higher-level problems with gangs and organised crime.” Nobody opposed the policy.
We met a gentleman who leads a non-governmental organisation that is staunchly anti liberalising the drugs policy—it was the closest we came to meeting somebody who disagreed—and he said that 10 days’ supply was too much and that it should be more like two or three days’ supply. I explained that that would be seen as phenomenally liberal in this country, and he was shocked. They all agree that that is not the right way to go. I hope the Minister found things much the same in Portugal—I am sure he will speak for himself—and that there was a strong sense that the policy worked well.
The principle of focusing on not criminalising people in possession has already been accepted by the Government in a different context: temporary class drug orders, brought in a couple of years ago to allow the temporary ban on drugs while we are trying to find all the evidence. The Government have made it an offence to supply large amounts of such drugs, but not an offence to possess small amounts. All I am suggesting is that we apply the same principle to other drugs, because it has been found to work in Portugal, to be publicly accepted and to have good outcomes.
I am keen on an evidence base. There is a fantastic piece of evidence from the Czech Republic. The Czech Republic used to have no criminal sanction on possession of small amounts, but in 2001 it changed the law and criminalised possession, and there was a big debate. The sort of arguments were made that might be expected, with people saying that if possession were criminalised fewer people would use drugs, people would be healthier and better, and there would be less drug use—all of that sort of thing. The Government there did something that Governments rarely do and set out their hypotheses, worked out how to measure and test them, and published a proper impact analysis, internationally verified, of their predictions. They found that they did not get what they expected from criminalising possession.
The implementation of a penalty for possession of illicit drugs for personal use did not meet any of the tested objectives, was loss-making from an economic point of view and brought about avoidable social costs. It was found that criminalisation made things worse. That suggests that decriminalisation—not an absolute parallel, but as close as one can get—would not be likely to make things bad.
The summary of results in the Czech impact analysis states that
“from the perspective of social costs, enforcement of penalizing of possession of illicit drugs for personal use is disadvantageous”.
The hypothesis that availability of illicit drugs would decrease was rejected, as was the one suggesting that the number of illicit drug users would decrease; and rather than the number of new cases of illicit drug use decreasing after criminalisation, incidence in the general population increased. Rather than finding no negative health indicators relating to illicit drug use, there were more fatal overdoses from illicit drugs after criminalisation, and the hypothesis that social costs would not increase was rejected. Having done this study, the Czech Republic went back and decriminalised possession, because it found that it was better for its society and was cheaper and more effective at dealing with drugs. We can do this in this country.
Of course, no country is a perfect model, but we know that in Portugal decriminalisation of possession of small amounts works and has societal benefits and is well accepted, and that in the Czech Republic it is better to decriminalise possession than not to. We can try that here. We would need a royal commission to work out the exact details of how to do the work here. We can make a difference.
Although I would love to talk about other domestic issues, I do not have time to go through them in perfect detail. The focus on treatment is right. I am alarmed that there is a push to suggest that abstinence is the only form of treatment that really counts. Where people are having treatment, we want to move them from high usage to lower usage. For some people that will mean abstinence and for others it will mean maintenance. We want to offer them the choice of whatever will get them to the lowest level we can. The Chair of our Committee was right in what he said about prisons and the need to get smaller providers involved in drugs treatment.
I want to pick up on an issue, drug-driving, that plays into Home Office discussions. It is right to have a criminal offence for drug-driving, just as there is for drink-driving, and the threshold for harm should be the same. We allow drivers to drink up to 0.08 mg per ml, and we should allow the same equivalent harm from drug use. For someone whose drug use has taken them to that risk level, that should be the key test. We make that recommendation in our report in paragraph 2:
“the equivalent effect on safety as the legal alcohol limit, currently 0.08 mg/ml.”
We must ensure that we get health further involved.
Let me finish by mentioning supply, because drugs are not just a UK problem but a huge international problem. Although we have had 50 years of criminalisation, illicit drugs are now the third most valuable industry in the world, after food and oil. That is incredibly damaging. We tracked the routes for cocaine, as our Committee Chair said. We went to Colombia to see where it was grown; to Florida, where we saw how the US military tried to combat it; and we saw the customs’ efforts to try to stop it flooding into the US. I spoke to parliamentarians from west Africa, looking at that stage of the process. In Portugal, cocaine is coming into Europe. The message at every stage was clear: supply cannot be stopped. It can be squeezed in various ways. For example, massive military efforts can be made in Colombia to reduce the amount of coca plantation, but it moves to a neighbouring country. Interdiction can used and the navy can block one side of central America, but it goes to the other side or takes an air route.
It was astonishing to see the mini-submarines now being created by the Colombian drugs lords, which cost about $1 million and have a range that allows them to reach London. The cocaine loaded on to those can be sold for about $500,000. The US navy was clear: with the best will in the world, it cannot spot a small submarine somewhere in the Atlantic. Supply cannot be controlled.
Dr Huppert
The right hon. Gentleman is right. I was flabbergasted to find out just how much money was involved. I was even more surprised to discover that, in Portugal, where there has been a problem for a while with people flying drugs in from west Africa—they have tried to combat that—drugs are now being flown back from Portugal into west Africa. On asking, we were told, “We think it is because the drugs are returned to the sender if they are not of good enough quality.” If people think it is safe enough to transfer drugs internationally that they can have a returns policy, we are nowhere near stopping supply, and in the process we are losing control of country after country to the drugs cartels. The profits are huge, and criminal gangs and cartels across the world thrive on them. The banks have a huge part to play, as the right hon. Gentleman was right to highlight. This is wrecking many countries. We did not look at the situation with heroin and marijuana, but the same damaging effects apply in different countries.
President Santos has been taking a strong stance, saying that his country will try to control this problem; but we cannot expect countries to be torn apart for ever in an effort to control a problem that cannot be controlled. I am delighted that, in 2016, the United Nations General Assembly will have a special session to look again at its international drugs policy. I hope that, whatever flavour of Government we have then, we will be working with people like President Santos and with the reformers to try to solve this global problem.
We have worked for 40 years with a criminalisation process that has not delivered what we said it should deliver in 1971. It has not worked for the users of drugs, for society at large or for the Treasury. There are much better ways.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Bayley. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I apologise, but I have a very sore throat, so my voice is not quite as it should be. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). I will certainly look to his pronouncements in future for an indication of Liberal Democrat policy.
I start by recognising that the report is an important piece of work. I pay tribute to the leadership of the Select Committee’s Chair, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). I also pay tribute to all the members of the Committee who contributed to the report, which draws upon the huge experience of different people and organisations. As we have heard, many different countries have been considered.
I had an opportunity to listen to some of the witness sessions. I heard Sir Richard Branson and Russell Brand give evidence, and I attended the Committee’s one-day conference in Parliament. I think it was very useful to invite the general public in to hear the deliberations of that Committee.
I visited Colombia after the Select Committee’s visit, and I know from my conversations with the Serious Organised Crime Agency officers based in Colombia that they were delighted to be able to explain the international role they play in addressing the drugs problem. They do some very important work, which I am pleased has been recognised in the report.
The report is wide-ranging and contains many recommendations. Because of the time, I will go through some of the recommendations that I believe are key. I look to the Minister to answer some of my questions on the approach the Government will take to addressing the Committee’s recommendations.
I start with the recommendation that the lead for drugs policy should be shared between the Home Office and the Department of Health, with a designated point person co-ordinating policy. That might seem an unlikely place to start, but I think it is absolutely essential that drugs policy is co-ordinated across Departments. I will address that theme in the points I raise this afternoon. The Opposition recognise the importance of a co-ordinated approach, and it is certainly important to recognise that there has been a high level of cross-departmental work on drugs over the past 10 years.
The Minister, although based in the Home Office, is responding on behalf of the Government, and I know he takes seriously his responsibilities on drugs. I question whether it should be necessary for two Departments to be involved with drugs, because the Minister is able today to discuss aspects of the drugs strategy that sit not only within the Home Office but within the Department for Education and other bodies, such as Public Health England and the NHS.
That leads me to the report’s recommendation on the need to strengthen and open up the inter-ministerial group on drugs, which the Minister chairs. One of the recommendations is that the group’s minutes, agendas and attendance lists should be published. I have spent much of the past 18 months trying to get details of those minutes, agendas and attendance lists through parliamentary questions, and I have resorted to freedom of information requests. I have been continually thwarted by the Home Office, so I think that recommendation would help us to understand and appreciate what is happening across Government.
We can see the importance of cross-Government working when we look at the record of achievement over the past 10 years on reducing the health harms of drug use, particularly heroin and crack cocaine use. All the key indicators are improving, and some of them have already been mentioned.
The number of drug users is falling, particularly among the 16-to-24 age group, although, as the hon. Member for Cambridge highlighted, that may not give us a true picture if we take legal highs into account. The number of drug deaths has fallen even more sharply—more than halving between 2001 and 2011—partly because we have had much better access to treatment and because treatment is more successful. The average waiting time to access treatment was nine weeks in 2001; it was five days in 2011, and it is getting more effective. Only 27% of treatment programmes were successful in 2005, but the figure rose to 41% in 2011.
Finally, and probably most importantly, more people are completing treatment. In 2005, 37,000 people dropped out of treatment before completion, whereas only 11,000 completed it. By 2011, those figures had almost reversed: 17,000 people dropped out of treatment, whereas nearly 30,000 completed it. I am sure we could see further improvement, and I am not complacent at all, but we ought to recognise that there has been huge improvement in treatment outcomes over the past 10 years. I say that in particular because much of what has been achieved was within the framework of collaboration.
The National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse was set up as a joint Home Office and Department of Health project to ensure that drugs treatment had the required priority in the NHS. Although the NTA was funded by the NHS, the Home Office had representation on its board because there was clear acceptance that the Home Office had a key part to play. We knew that drug treatment was important in reducing crime. We wanted to ensure that those two parts, treatment and crime prevention, sat together. I think the NTA was an unprecedented success, and I pay tribute to the recently retired chief executive, Paul Hayes, who did an excellent job over many years.
I saw at first hand how collaboration can work effectively when I visited a drugs treatment facility in Wakefield run by Turning Point. In one building there were police officers, probation officers, social workers and a range of medics and support officers, which works very well, but I share the Committee’s concerns about how such a set-up will fare in the new frameworks. Such facilities will depend on the co-operation of the new police and crime commissioners, who will have some responsibility for funding, and the new health and wellbeing boards. In the case of the facility that I visited, the PCC will have to liaise with nine different health and wellbeing boards, each of which has a huge number of priorities. We need to keep an eye on how well such facilities continue to be funded under those new PCCs and health and wellbeing boards.
I am also concerned about the level of co-ordination between health and wellbeing boards and the criminal justice system. I am pleased that in my home city of Hull the police have been co-opted on to the health and wellbeing board, but I do not think that is the norm. I support the Committee’s recommendation that more information be collected from health and wellbeing boards on where their money is being spent and who is involved in that decision making. The Home Office should ensure that that includes information on co-ordination with criminal justice partners. Drug treatment is not sexy, but for it to keep working a huge number of local politicians will have to continue to prioritise drug treatment and the spending that it needs. I question whether, in the financing regime they have set up, the Government have put enough in place to incentivise local politicians to recognise that.
Quite rightly, much of the Committee’s report addresses how we can improve treatment and increase recovery rates, and I particularly want to mention prisons. The Committee makes a number of recommendations about improving provision in prisons, and that seems sensible. Will the Minister tell us how far the Government have started to implement some of the recommendations? In particular, I echo the Committee’s concerns about the importance of treatment and the availability of support at the prison gate to prevent recovering addicts from relapsing, especially because of the recent changes in the NHS. I understand that in-prison drug treatment is being commissioned not in the locality but by a national agency, but that what happens when the person leaves prison and returns to the community depends on the commissioning arrangements of the clinical commissioning group and the health and wellbeing board.
Keith Vaz
I thank my hon. Friend for taking part in the debate. Given the state of her voice, she probably needs a prescription, so I am grateful to her.
What is the Opposition’s position on compulsory testing on entry and exit? Everyone wants to help people, but if we do not know who needs help we cannot really give that help.
Diana Johnson
The Chair of the Select Committee makes a powerful argument for having data that allow us to understand the number of people affected and therefore how to treat them. I am sure the Opposition would want to consider that, recognising that the issue has been raised by the Committee, which sees it as an important part of tackling some of the problems in prison.
Will the Minister also address an issue that has arisen since the report was published, which is the use of the private sector in the probation services provided to people leaving prison? What thought has been given to ensuring that appropriate drug treatment and support is available through the new providers?
At the start of this Parliament, there was a lot of political rhetoric from Government Members about what constituted recovery, to which the hon. Member for Cambridge referred. The view at first appeared to be based on ideology and not on looking at the individual needs of each person. For some people a life of abstinence would be appropriate; for others, a life supported by methadone or another drug. When people want to move to abstinence, it is important that they have the necessary support to do so, and that a range of programmes are available to support them.
The Committee’s report highlights the large variations in the success of different programmes, which is of concern, because we want to ensure good value for money and that we get the right outcomes. An average success level of 41% could obviously be improved upon. Payment by results should help to improve standards, but I echo the concerns expressed by the Committee, and this afternoon by its Chair, about how that method of funding might hamper small providers. It is also important that support is given to a range of commissioning bodies to enable them to sort through the data on what is effective. Given the multitude of different commissioners, can the Minister explain what role Public Health England will play in guiding commissioners?
Of course, we all want to see fewer people taking drugs in the first place, and I will concentrate for a few moments on the need to have more effort directed at prevention. I agree with the Committee that drugs prevention and education are the strands of the drugs strategy to have had least work and least interest. In the review of the drugs strategy, the Government could identify just two areas of progress: they had relaunched the FRANK website, and they were reviewing the curriculum for schools. Since then, the curriculum review has finished, but my understanding is that there will now be even less drugs education in the science curriculum. That cannot be seen as progress. At the same time, the Government have abandoned Labour’s plans to make personal, social, health and economic education a statutory requirement for schools and have closed the drugs education forum.
Figures from Mentor, the drug and alcohol charity, show that at present 60% of schools deliver drug and alcohol education once a year or less. That education is often poor, incomplete or totally irrelevant; pupils aged 16 seem to get the same lessons as pupils aged 11. An example given was of sixth-form students being required to colour in pictures of ecstasy tablets as part of their drugs education. Earlier this year, Mentor told me:
“Drug and alcohol education should not be disregarded as a trivial add-on. It should be fundamental to pupils’ education. The links between early drug and alcohol use and both short and long term harms are clear, and there is compelling evidence showing longer term public health impacts of evidence based programmes. The cost benefit ratios are significant, ranging from 1:8 to 1:12.”
The Committee’s report is clear:
“The evidence suggests that early intervention should be an integral part of any policy which is to be effective in breaking the cycle of drug dependency. We recommend that the next version of the Drugs Strategy contain a clear commitment to an effective drugs education and prevention programme, including behaviour-based interventions.”
I wholeheartedly support that, and I repeat Labour’s commitment to bringing in statutory PSHE to achieve it, which I tried to do recently myself by introducing a ten-minute rule Bill in the previous Session.
For the interim, the Committee recommends
“that Public Health England commit centralised funding for preventative interventions when pilots are proven to be effective.”
Again, that is something I support. The Department for Education has a set of programmes that have been approved and are listed on the Centre for the Analysis of Youth Transitions database. A wide range of programmes, they are all evidence-based and have been tested and proved to be effective. They are life-skills programmes that not only tell children no, but empower them to resist peer pressure and to make informed decisions about alcohol and drugs. Furthermore, they dispel myths such as those going around suggesting legal highs are safe. What is unfortunately lacking at the moment, however, is the political leadership to get those lessons into schools.
I mentioned earlier my attempts to see the minutes of the inter-ministerial group on drugs. I never managed to get the minutes of the meetings, but I did get the agendas, which showed that in the first 18 months of this Government drugs education and drugs prevention were never discussed. Can the Minister tell us whether he has put either drugs education or drug prevention on the agenda of the group in the nine months that he has been chair? If not, perhaps he can promise to put something on the agenda of the next meeting. Previously, when there was a problem with prioritising drug treatment within the NHS, Ministers came together to form the National Treatment Agency. There now appears to be a problem with prioritising prevention work in schools and education and in public health, so perhaps the Minister can show a similar initiative and work with his colleagues to set up a cross-departmental body to tackle the issue.
Finally, I want to discuss the problem of the new psychoactive substances. The European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction is now monitoring 280 new substances throughout Europe; 73 new substances came on to the British market last year, and they are now freely available from 690 online shops. In addition, the Angelus Foundation, which has already been mentioned, reports that there might be up to 300 “head shops” selling those substances on the UK high street. The figures are truly shocking and will terrify every parent in the country, but even those figures do not quite show how readily available the drugs are through peer-to-peer selling in schools. As the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee mentioned, even Amazon was recently selling the drugs, and some online sellers are sending out free samples to children once a new compound arrives from China. Our understanding of the dangers of legal highs has been greatly enhanced by the work of the Angelus Foundation, and I pay particular tribute to Maryon Stewart who founded the foundation after tragically losing her daughter, Hester Stewart, a medical student, from the legal high GBL in 2009.
As we heard, the Government have introduced temporary banning orders to make such drugs easier to prohibit. The Home Secretary promised that they would allow for swift and effective action. In two years, however, one temporary banning order has been used, during a period when more than 100 new legal highs have emerged on the market. I understand from the press that two more temporary banning orders are in the pipeline, which I will come on to.
The first thing we need to do to get better understanding of the harms of such drugs is, as the Select Committee said in its report, to improve data collection on drugs. Nowhere is that more pressing than with the new psychoactive substances. First, we need better information about their prevalence. I am very concerned that those drugs are not being properly recorded in the Mixmag drug survey or the British crime survey.
Secondly, we need to understand the harm they cause. I have heard from front-line practitioners in addiction services and A and E that they are encountering more and more people who have taken legal highs, but that is anecdotal and we need proper data collection. If someone presents to A and E having taken a legal high, that should be properly recorded.
Thirdly, we need the major databases to work together. For the last year, I have tried to ascertain how the EMCDDA database liaises with the Home Office’s much-touted early warning system. Last year, I asked why it was monitoring 13 substances when the EMCDDA had 47 on its list, but I have still not received a satisfactory explanation. I would also like to know how the Home Office’s system is informed by the TICTAC database of toxins, which is run by the NHS, and the National Poisons Information Service’s TOXBASE. In the past, work on collecting data was done by the Forensic Science Service, but it has been disbanded. I hope that the Minister will explain who is doing that work now.
This week, the Government announced that they will finally ban Benzo Fury. It is clear from the letter that the Home Secretary received from the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs that there are real concerns that the system that has been set up is failing. The drug has been putting people in hospital since 2009, when it was first reported to TOXBASE, and since then there have been 65 more referrals. Will the Minister explain the point of a temporary banning order if it takes four years from the first hospital admissions to a ban on the sale of the drug on the high street? No deaths from this drug have been reported in the UK, but deaths have been reported in other countries. Professor Les Iversen, chair of the ACMD, said:
“Sooner or later we will get unexpected and serious harm emerging with one of these compounds and then we will blame ourselves for allowing them to be sold without the usual safety data.
That’s why I think this is a serious problem, it's not just a nice set of party drugs that we can let people get on with, it's a set of chemicals that are potentially very dangerous.”
I hope the Minister will respond to that comment.
The Committee’s report recommends that more advice and support be given to allow trading standards to take action against sellers, and that recommendation was also made by the UK Drug Policy Commission. What has the Minister done to investigate implementation of those two recommendations? Several recent attempts to take action through the courts have failed, and trading standards are already exceptionally stretched because of the massive cuts in local government. I hope the Minister will review that, and look at who is responsible for tackling online sellers.
I have highlighted a few of the key issues in the report, but there are many others. I again congratulate the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee—
Dr Huppert
The hon. Lady has highlighted some issues and talked about a failing system. Will she clarify her position on the suggestion of a royal commission to examine the matter and to try to fix the whole system, and on the concept of decriminalisation? Where does she stand on those two issues?
Diana Johnson
Perhaps I may correct the record. When I talked about a failing system, I meant the legal highs and the temporary banning orders that have been put in place. I am not sure that they are delivering what the Government intended them to do swiftly and efficiently.
On the other point raised by the hon. Gentleman, it is certainly important to look at what happened in Portugal, which I am pleased the Minister visited. I am particularly interested in what is happening in New Zealand with legal highs, and I hope the Government will look at the New Zealand Government’s experience. I think that President Santos is doing important work in Colombia. But today I wanted to concentrate on the issues in the report which the Government have an opportunity to respond to and to do something about. I am particularly concerned about the lack of action on education, and that has been my main focus.
I congratulate the Chair of the Select Committee on a well-reasoned and thoughtful report. I am pleased that we have had the opportunity to discuss it this afternoon, albeit with a small number of Members. The quality of debate has been high.
The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)
I hope to continue the high level of debate on which the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) commented. I am grateful, Mr Bayley, for this opportunity to serve under your distinguished chairmanship and to debate this important subject with hon. Members who take a particularly close interest in the topic.
Like others, I congratulate the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee and its members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), on their interest in the matter and their attention to detail in compiling a lengthy and insightful report which, as the Committee’s Chairman reminded us, the Government have accepted in part but not in full. He and other members of the Committee were pleased that the Government were willing to accept some recommendations, and I will touch on some of them during my deliberations. Instead of giving a completely off-the-peg Home Office Minister’s speech—I may do that in part—I want to engage with some of the themes that have emerged during the debate.
Some extreme libertarians may not accept the harm premise, or they may believe that people should be entirely free to inflict harm on themselves, but the mainstream debate, by and large, starts with acceptance of that premise. I think that everyone who has participated today accepts that drugs are often harmful and may be extremely harmful, and that it is in the interests of the Government and Parliament to try to reduce the harm caused by drugs that may sometimes lead to death, or to severe injury and disability that may last for the rest of someone’s life.
Quite a few people reach for the view that there is a right answer and a wrong answer to the problem of drugs and the harm they cause, and that a royal commission or some other august body of dispassionate people could tell us what it is, or that we could go to another country that has done the work before us and it could tell us the right answer, which we could adopt and solve all our problems. My experience of this difficult area of policy making is, sadly, that it is far more difficult and complicated. Many well-meaning, expert and informed people can come to different conclusions about how best to address the problem.
There are reasons for cautious optimism about Government policy and its impact on society, and about how society is evolving in comparable countries, particularly in our part of the world. There are signs of progress. Some may be a direct result of Government intervention and some may arise from the evolution of society, which is less easy to attribute directly to Government action. However, there are reasons to be cautiously optimistic, and I will come to them shortly.
If there was a straightforward answer—for example, to decriminalise drugs—it would be a persuasive path for many people, but we have just heard from the Chairman of the Select Committee that when it went to Miami it saw the chronic problem of people addicted to decriminalised legal drugs. One issue in this debate is the growing problem of legal highs. In this country, consumption of illegal drugs has reduced, but consumption of legal drugs has increased. That presents all sorts of thorny and interesting public policy issues, but does not automatically lead to the conclusion that the more drugs we legalise, or at least decriminalise, the better the effect on public health. The effect may be better—I am not ruling that out altogether—but I caution everybody in this debate not to leap to immediate conclusions about public policy outcomes, because in my experience, the more carefully one looks at the issue, the less obvious the conclusions become.
Keith Vaz
I welcome the way in which the Minister is dealing with the issues raised in the debate. On legal highs, does he agree with the Committee that those who sell them need to be responsible for what they do? Would he look at the New Zealand model and try and adopt it, because it means that the responsibility is on the manufacturer? They should not be manufacturing drugs that end up killing people.
Mr Browne
I am very attracted by the right hon. Gentleman’s suggestion. My intention at the moment is not to go to New Zealand, in part because I am mindful of the cost of doing so and I think we should spend public money cautiously. However, I will be speaking by video conference call to New Zealand officials next month—it is quite hard to get a suitable time to speak by conference call to New Zealand, because the time difference is so big, but I will do that. When suitable New Zealand officials or Ministers are here in London—they tend to pass through on a fairly routine basis—I also hope to take the opportunity to draw on their expertise.
I am attracted by the idea of whether people should be made more accountable for the drugs that they produce or sell in this space, but even that is not straightforward, because the issue often arises about who has produced the drugs, and they are often sold as not suitable for human consumption. All kinds of legal problems make what appears, on first inspection, to be a very seductive idea slightly less straightforward in practice than I would wish, but I am open-minded to what more we can do in that area, because it is worth exploring.
Dr Huppert
The Minister is making a very good case about there being lots of different types of harm and no single obviously right answer. He is absolutely right to say all that, and to say how complicated it is. He talked about it not being straightforward, so does he not think that he is making a very good argument for a royal commission? It is precisely because it is not straightforward and there is not one clear answer that we need that level of inquiry.
Mr Browne
I think that that is a good argument for elected politicians, including those who have participated in the debate this afternoon, to devote more time to thinking seriously about the subject. The point I was making about a royal commission was that we can put together an expert body of men and women who are full of integrity, knowledge and decency, and they could spend a long time thinking about the issue, but they would not produce “the right answer”, because I fear that the right answer does not exist in that form. They would produce a series of interesting observations and recommendations, which may match, to a high degree, the series of interesting observations and recommendations that the Committee made in its report. We would then have a debate along the lines of the one we are having this afternoon. As I said, although a royal commission would be a good opportunity for stimulating debate, I do not think that it would in itself necessarily reach the outcomes that we seek, because I am not sure that the outcomes are ever fully attainable.
A number of other issues have come up. The Government’s strategy has three prongs: reducing demand, restricting supply and building recovery. In addition, we have always said that we are open to learning from best practice in other countries. I have had the opportunity to travel, as recommended by the Committee, to Portugal, and last week I spent 24 hours in Denmark and 24 hours in Sweden. During the remainder of the year, my plan is to visit South Korea, Japan, the United States, Canada, the Czech Republic and Switzerland. We should be open-minded to the ideas that such other countries have come up with, because they are broadly equivalent to us in their economic and social development, and they are confronted by the same problems as us in terms of drugs policy. There is no reason to believe that every good idea in the world originates in this country, and they may well have ideas that we can learn from.
Going to Portugal was interesting—my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge dwelt particularly on that country. I will write a report when I conclude the process, so I will not do a running commentary on a weekly basis. I thought Portugal was interesting, but I was perhaps slightly less bowled over by it than I might have expected to be, because in some ways, the Portuguese codify what, in practice, happens to a large degree in this country anyway. People might think that that is quite interesting in itself. The fact that Portugal has made that formal codification is a significant step, but, in practice, there are very few people in Britain who are in prison merely for the possession of drugs for personal consumption. People are in prison because they have stolen money to buy drugs, or because they have supplied drugs to others, but most people in Britain who present with a severe heroin addiction, for example, are treated. We try and find ways of enabling them to address their addiction and, in time, recover from it, rather than treating them straightforwardly as criminals. Therefore, the gap between what happens in Portugal and what happens in practice in the United Kingdom is perhaps not as great as some might say.
It was interesting, for example, to talk to the Portuguese about the impact of changes in their laws on infection and blood-borne illnesses caused by the injection of drugs. They had a very big rise in instances of HIV infection in intravenous drug users, and when they changed the laws, there was a dramatic fall. It is a striking graph—like a mountain, it goes up and then comes down, and there is a clear correlation. The only thing I would say is that their starting point was higher than the United Kingdom’s. They then went to a point that was dramatically higher than the United Kingdom’s, and they have now come down to a point that is just higher than ours—but they are still higher than us.
For a number of reasons, we have never had that level of infection in the intravenous drug-taking community. Because the scale of our problem is dramatically different from the scale of the problem that they were confronted with when they changed the law, we should not automatically assume that changing the law would have a similar impact on infection rates in this country. There are interesting lessons to learn from talking to people in other countries, but we should not automatically assume that changing the law in the way that other countries have will lead to the same public policy outcomes, as we are starting from a different point in this country.
The Portuguese are having conversations about how their law is working in practice. In my experience—I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge—it was virtually impossible to find anyone in Portugal who wanted to turn the clock back and change the law to what it had previously been. Last week in Denmark, which is one of the more liberal countries in the European Union in terms of drugs policy, I found that some of the liberalising measures that had been taken had become widely accepted, even among people who had initially been sceptical about the changes.
In Portugal, however, there was a debate about whether it could modify its law and in some ways potentially strengthen it. The idea of having 10 days-worth of personal drugs consumption was thought by the Minister to be a high figure. There was a lobby or case for reducing that to five, or even possibly three days. I suppose that if someone who was minded to transport drugs for sale to others had 50 days-worth of supply that they wanted to take to another house five minutes’ walk away, they would be better making that journey five times, with 10 days-worth on them each time, because they would then not be breaking the law. There was some thought about whether that law was perhaps too liberal and could be slightly tighter to restrict the potential for abuse.
[Mr Clive Betts in the Chair]
My point is that there were many interesting features of the experience in Portugal, as there were in Denmark and Sweden. I am genuinely open-minded on this matter. I approach open-mindedly what changes we could consider and potentially even adopt in this country to make our laws more effective.
I heard the point that was made by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North, who speaks for the Opposition, and others about where responsibility lies for drugs policy in the United Kingdom. It is worth noting that in all the countries that I have been to so far, the lead responsibility lies with the Health Department. In this country, of course, the lead responsibility lies with the Home Office. I am not sure that in practice that is as significant as it is regarded as being by both those who believe vehemently that it should remain with the Home Office and those who believe vehemently that it should not, because we have a cross-Government approach.
There needs to be a lead Department, and of course much of drugs policy is about law enforcement, so there is a persuasive case to be made for that being with the Home Office, but we also of course involve the Department of Health, the Department for Education, the Department for Communities and Local Government, the Department for Work and Pensions, the Cabinet Office and others in a cross-Government strategy on drugs, so I would not want anyone attending this debate to think that the Home Office ploughed on without listening to other parts of the Government.
The three parts of the strategy are demand, supply and recovery. We have a range of initiatives on demand reduction. The FRANK website and programme was mentioned during our debate. That has been updated and relaunched and is widely used as a source of information—particularly, but not exclusively, by young people. Another example is the Choices programme that we have developed. That focuses on preventing substance misuse and related offending among vulnerable groups of young people aged 10 to 19. The programme received funding of £4 million in 2011-12 and engaged more than 10,000 vulnerable young people.
This issue is not just about schools. In fact, many people take drugs for the first time when they have left school—when they are adults. Schools have a part to play, but so do other methods of education. It is worth noting that the number of young people taking up drugs and particularly school pupils experimenting with drugs has fallen markedly, so there does not seem to be a shortage of information among young people about the harmful consequences of taking drugs. Indeed, increasing numbers of young people seem to be mindful of those harmful consequences and, as a result, have not taken drugs.
Diana Johnson
In the light of the fact that for many years, as I understand it, it has been Liberal Democrat policy to have PSHE as part of the statutory national curriculum, I wonder whether the Minister, as a Liberal Democrat Minister in the coalition Government, is satisfied that enough is currently being done through the Department for Education to ensure that there is good drugs education in all our schools.
Mr Browne
This is a wider issue. I will engage seriously with the question, because I think that it is fair. It is about the degree to which we, as a Government and a country, use schools to inculcate desirable behaviour in children of school age. There is a powerful lobby in the House—I have received its representations—that says that it is crucial for part of the curriculum in schools to be about tackling drugs and the harmful effects of drugs.
I have also had representations from people saying that children should be taught in school about sexually appropriate relationships and that that should be part of the curriculum. I have also been told that children should be taught in school about responsible financial management, because children leave school without necessarily being able to make mature decisions about their personal finances. I have also been told that children should be taught in school how to cook properly, because large numbers of children are not as adept as hon. Members at this debate are at making delicious meals for themselves and that that should be part of the curriculum. I have been told that healthy eating more generally should be part of the curriculum in schools because otherwise children would eat unhealthy food through ignorance rather than because they preferred the taste of unhealthy food. I have also been told that there should be more awareness of alcohol and the dangers of cigarettes and that there should be more public health information generally.
The point that I am making is that there is a reasonable nervousness in the Department for Education that, unless we try to rationalise the activities that children are taught about in school, all of which are individually worthy—I think that everyone would accept that—teachers might get to the end of the school day and find that there is not much time left to teach children some of the core academic subjects that parents rightly expect them to be taught. There is a genuine debate about whether schools are there primarily to create good citizens or to educate children in core areas of academic knowledge. There is scope for a bit of a trade-off. Most people would want their children to be adept at maths, English literature and other typical academic subjects and to be rounded citizens at the same time, but there are only so many hours in the day and the Department for Education has to make some judgments about how to fill those hours intelligently.
On supply, we work closely with partner countries in Europe particularly. While I was in Portugal, I also took the opportunity to visit MAOC—the maritime analysis and operations centre—which is an initiative primarily involving Atlantic-facing European countries, although I think that the Dutch are also involved. They do not really face the Atlantic; it depends how far one thinks the Atlantic goes down the English channel. But the United Kingdom, the French, the Portuguese, the Spanish and others are working to try to intercept drug shipments.
Before becoming a Home Office Minister, I was a Foreign Office Minister who covered, among other places, Latin America. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has met the Presidents of Colombia and Panama. Home Office Ministers have met the Interior Ministers of Colombia and Brazil and the Foreign Ministers of Bolivia and the Dominican Republic. But I hope that I do not sound immodest when I say that I suspect that, probably more than anyone else in government, I have an insight into the countries that we have talked about. Since this Government formed, I have been to Colombia on three occasions and Peru on two occasions. I have been to Bolivia; I have been to Ecuador; I have been to Panama on two occasions and so on.
In the countries that I am talking about, the issue is cocaine, and there is indeed a severe impact on those countries. We recognise our responsibilities to them as a consuming country. We work closely with the Governments of all those countries to varying degrees and certainly with the President and Government of Colombia, to whom many in this debate have already paid tribute.
Recovery is an area where there is quite a lot of innovative public policy making. We have the world’s first payment-by-results programme to try to incentivise recovery outcomes. It is being piloted in eight areas, and I have attended an extensive meeting with people from the eight areas in the Department of Health to talk to them about the progress that they are making in Bracknell Forest, Enfield, Kent, Lincolnshire, Oxfordshire, Stockport, Wakefield and Wigan. We are optimistic that they will make good progress, but they will not all make identical progress. Part of what will be interesting about the pilot studies is how local providers, tailoring their services to their local problem, will produce outcomes that we hope will reduce harm and drug taking and enable people to recover in their areas.
There is an interesting debate, which I think my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge touched on, about how one measures recovery. We have had that debate in Government. I accept, as I think most people do, that it represents progress when we take someone whose life is chaotic, who is a drug taker and who is unable to work or to take responsibility for themselves in quite elementary ways and we stabilise their life—perhaps through some programme of replacement drug treatment—so that that they can perhaps address some of their underlying social problems and, in time, find a job. I would not want the Government to fail to recognise that, because a lot of people, including in the voluntary sector, work to try to bring about that progress, which leads to improved outcomes for the people affected and, in many cases, for their spouses, their children and others around them.
The only caveat that I would enter is that the Government are cautious about regarding that as a desirable end point. Although some people may struggle to get beyond that point, most people—if they were talking about their own children, for example—would regard it as a desirable interim point. Ideally, however, they would like the end point to be that the person was free from addiction to whatever substance has made their lives so blighted and difficult in the first place.
There is an interesting, worthwhile and entirely valid debate about the point at which progress starts to put down roots and just becomes the new normal. If someone has been moved from a chaotic life on drugs to an ordered and managed life on drugs, that is definitely progress. If, 10 or 15 years later, they are living an ordered and managed life on drugs, one could argue that it is time for a bit more progress, and we might try to get them through to an end point where they are no longer on drugs at all.
What we do not want to do is to institutionalise the interim measure; we want to make interim progress, because that is better than making no progress at all, but we have to be careful about progress freezing before it has reached its most desirable destination. That is an insight into the conversations that we are having. Of course, if we are looking at payment by results, we then have to think about how we incentivise people not only to make progress but to complete the journey, rather than to leave it half completed.
The Ministry of Justice is doing lots of extra and innovative work on rehabilitation and on how to help offenders. The Government were not minded to accept the Committee’s recommendation on drug testing in and out of prison because we remain of the view that random testing is superior and that people who know when they will be tested may take measures to avoid showing up as positive. Other people may have different views, but we had good motives for objecting to that recommendation.
A lot of work is going on in the Ministry of Justice, rather than directly in my Department, on how we can help people who leave prison with a modest amount of money—£46, I think—and few other support structures to get back on their feet and rebuild a meaningful life, with housing and employment, rather than lapsing back into criminality. There are two interesting pilot studies on payment by results and on trying to incentivise prison providers to help people with rehabilitation once they have left prison.
Keith Vaz
But the point is this: is it not wrong that so many of the people we send to prison get the drugs habit there? Does that not show that something is wrong with the prison regime? If people are tested, helped and rehabilitated when they are in prison, things will be much better for everybody when they come out.
Mr Browne
My short answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s question is yes, it is wrong. It is a source of great regret and sadness that someone might go to prison, not as a drug taker or drug addict, and become one while they are there. I recognise there are practical difficulties with trying to restrict drugs in prisons, and people find ingenious ways to smuggle drugs into prisons, just as they find ingenious ways to smuggle them into other places, but the Government are doing work, as we should be, to try to reduce that threat.
What I am saying is that we could just as well do random testing throughout the period people are in prison. I have been told that if we tell somebody they will be tested on a set day, they may take steps to make it less likely that drugs will be detected in their body on that day. We are not, therefore, against the idea of testing prisoners, and we are strongly in favour of trying to ensure that people do not take drugs in prison, while those who might be minded to take drugs are dissuaded or prevented from doing so, but the proposed testing regime would not necessarily automatically have the most successful outcome.
On the Government’s approach to reducing demand, it is worth putting on the record that drug use remains at around the lowest level since measurement began in 1996. The 2011-12 crime survey in England and Wales estimated that 8.9% of adults—about 3 million people—had used an illicit drug in the previous year. In 1996, the figure was 11.1%, so there was a fall of a bit less than a quarter—about 20%, according to my rough and ready calculations. There was therefore a significant fall in the number of people who said they had taken illicit drugs in the previous year.
School pupils also tell us they are taking fewer drugs. In 2011, 12% of 11 to 15-year-olds said they had taken them in the previous year. In 2001—a decade earlier—the figure was 20%, so it fell from 20% to 12% in a decade. Some hon. Members may think that 11 to 15-year-olds are not entirely reliable when talking about their drug consumption, but there is no particular reason to believe they were any more or less reliable in 2011 than they were in 2001.
The number of heroin and crack cocaine users in England has fallen below 300,000 for the first time. We have now got to a situation where the average heroin addict is over 40. The age of heroin addicts is going up and up, as fewer young people become heroin addicts in the first place. We are trying to rehabilitate and treat addicts and to keep those figures falling. They are not falling dramatically, but they are falling consistently, year on year, for those very serious drugs, which often concern people most.
On restricting supply, we have talked a bit about the countries that some of the class A drugs come here from and about the work we are doing with European partners and others. Tribute has rightly been paid to the Serious Organised Crime Agency, and the National Crime Agency, which will succeed it later this year, will also have a focus on working with countries around the world to reduce harm in the United Kingdom.
On building recovery, the average waiting time to access treatment is down to five days. There is an impressive support structure available, and drug-related deaths in England have fallen over the past three years. Record numbers of people are recovering from dependence, with nearly 30,000 people—29,855, to be precise—successfully completing their treatment in 2011-12. That is up from 27,969 the previous year, and it is almost three times the level seven years ago, when only 11,208 people recovered.
I do not pretend that we have all the answers or that the situation is perfect, but we should not despair, because, in the light of all those statistics, there is good reason to believe that the harm resulting from many of the drugs that have caused people the most upset and alarm over many years has diminished to a degree.
The problem is evolving. For example, cannabis, which was largely imported a decade ago, is increasingly home grown by criminal organisations in the United Kingdom. The cannabis that people consume is also a lot stronger. I sometimes tell people that the active substance in cannabis is as much as seven or eight times stronger than it was, so people can be talking about quite a different drug. Sometimes, older people talk about cannabis in a bit of a summer of love, Janis Joplin, 1967 way. Now, however, we are talking about a much stronger drug, with the potential to cause greater harm.
It is a bit like going from drinking a pint of real ale to drinking a pint of neat vodka. In both cases, an alcoholic drink is being consumed, but most people would accept that the potential for harm is quite a lot greater in the latter case. That is what we are discussing. The strength of modern cannabis is seven times greater, which raises some interesting public policy questions about how we deal with cannabis and how much concern we should have about people consuming it.
Dr Huppert
The Minister is absolutely right to say that there are different strengths of both THC and some of the psychoprotective components of cannabis. It is of course hard to regulate and set standards for something that is fundamentally illegal. Has the Minister looked at the experience in California, for example, where medical marijuana is available? The different levels of strength are clear, so people can judge what they actually want to buy. I have no idea what will happen, but will the Minister keep an eye on the legalisation trials in Washington state and Colorado?
Mr Browne
As I mentioned earlier, I am going to the United States of America and I am visiting both Colorado and Washington state, which are the two states that have voted to legalise cannabis. I was in Denmark last week and the mayor of Copenhagen is keen to legalise cannabis, but the pretty liberal Danish Government are keen to remind the mayor that it is not within his power to legalise cannabis and that it is not a policy that they want to pursue.
The point is that the public policy debate around cannabis is evolving. The potential health harms caused by cannabis are greater than when it was a much less powerful drug. People sometimes talk about cannabis as being the softer end of the drugs market and say that cannabis could be legalised while everything else is kept illegal as if it were a benign drug and all others harmful. If that were once the case, it is less the case now. Cannabis does have cause to concern people.
I move finally on to psychoactive substances, which is a whole new area that is evolving a lot. It is good that we see significant reductions in people consuming heroin and crack cocaine, which are very harmful drugs, but new psychoactive substances are a fast-evolving threat to many people. In the most tragic cases, some people have died after taking such drugs. People sometimes assume—this is interesting for public policy—that because something is legal it is safe. People have quite paternalistic assumptions about the state even when they are not necessarily minded to believe the Government in other areas of public policy. Just because something is legal, that does not mean that it is safe to consume.
Some such drugs get under the barrier by claiming not to be for human consumption and serious harm has been caused to people by consuming so-called novel psychoactive substances. We have tried to adapt how we respond to such substances to take account of their fast-moving nature. As has been mentioned, we have introduced temporary class drug orders and just this week the Government laid such an order in my name that will take effect from 10 June for two groups of NPSs known as NBOMe and Benzo Fury. We are discussing families of drugs, because, as has been said, these chemical compounds can be manipulated and form whole categories of drugs. We therefore do not just ban street names or individual drugs; we ban groupings of drugs to try to stop people breaking the spirit of the law but staying within the letter of the law. The problem, however, is constantly mutating and we want to maintain the academic rigour that enables the ACMD to consider such matters at length while also having the speed to deal with evolving threats more quickly than it otherwise could. That is why we have the temporary orders lasting 12 months and a more considered process following on from that. I do not pretend that this is an area in which any country does not have public policy challenges to consider. How such drugs are couriered and supplied is also a potential new cause for concern, because people order them on the internet and the drug smuggling does not take the familiar, conventional form.
This is a big area of public policy and there are some causes for cautious optimism. Some drug consumption trends in this country are positive. If they were going in the opposite direction, I suggest that there would be far more Members at this debate and a bigger clamour to ask the Government what they were doing about increases in heroin or crack cocaine consumption. We should momentarily reflect on the good news and progress, where it is being made.
However, this is an area of public policy that never stops evolving, and many new drugs are becoming available. The patterns of drug consumption are evolving. It is subject to fashion and trends, and we must be alive to the harms, educate people about them, try to persuade people not to take drugs, look at where we can restrict supply to benefit public health and help people to recover. All of those are part of our strategy. I welcome the contributions of hon. and right hon. Members and I remind open-minded as to how to ensure that we can work as intelligently as possible to reduce the harm to the British public.
Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)
I call the Chair of the Select Committee on Home Affairs briefly to wind up.
Keith Vaz
I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Betts, even though the sign in front of you, which has not been changed, still describes you as the hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), so we shall perhaps ever more call you by the previous Chair’s name.
The debate has been excellent and I thank the Minister, the shadow Minister, who is suffering greatly with her throat infection, and the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) for taking part. As the shadow Minister said, it is not about the numbers present, it is about the quality of the contributions, and the Minister’s approach has been extremely measured and positive.
The Select Committee on Home Affairs will look again at the subject in six months, but we promise to do so every 12 months when we publish a report. At the moment, the Government have adopted five of the 10 recommendations—50%. We encourage the Minister’s trips around the world. We do not usually like to see Ministers, in particular those from the Home Office, go abroad, but we understand the need to travel. Actually, I think it would be a good idea for him to take the shadow Minister with him in this era of cross-party co-operation on drugs, because there is much cross-party agreement on what we should do. Perhaps she should go with him after she has had treatment for her throat, and we could get a cross-Parliament approach.
We will continue to monitor the matter, and I am grateful to the Minister for his indications. He has shown that he is prepared to listen to the shadow Minister, which is extremely important, but also to the hon. Member for Cambridge, who originally suggested this inquiry to the Home Affairs Committee. He has done the most work and has been as assiduous as always, passing between Bill Committees and sittings of the Home Affairs Committee, and the report will be important to reflect on in future.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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EU Competitiveness Council (Post-Council Statement)
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The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
My noble Friend, the Minister of State for Trade and Investment (joint with Foreign and Commonwealth Office), (Lord Green) has today made the following statement:
The EU Competitiveness Council took place in Brussels on 29 and 30 May 2013. I represented the UK for internal market and industry items on 29 May, and Shan Morgan, Deputy Permanent Representative to the EU, represented the UK for research items on 30 May. A summary of those discussions follows.
The main internal market and industry issues discussed on 29 May were: auditing; Single Market Act I and II; smart regulation; industrial policy; modernisation of EU copyright law; and; state aid modernisation. Outside the chamber, there was a lunch discussion on industrial policy.
Council began with an orientation debate on Commission proposals to regulate statutory audits. In a full round table, most member states were prepared to accept the principle of mandatory rotation, with some arguing for a longer period before mandatory rotation, or for a narrower scope. I intervened on a similar vein to this. Some member states remained opposed. On non-audit services, all member states supported the principle of a blacklist only of prohibited services, but with many stressing the need for the list to be more limited, with some pushing for alignment with international standards. I agreed with the principle of a blacklist only, though expressed reservations on any cap in non-audit services. On a final point on the role of the European Securities Markets Authority (ESMA) in pan-European audit regulation, a majority of member states supported the European Board of Auditors’ Oversight Bodies (EBAOB) solution already proposed by nine member states, citing cost and independence as key concerns. I argued this solution was more appropriate and less expensive.
The next substantive item concerned Single Market Act I and II, with the presidency and Commission outlining progress made over the last six months towards adaptation of the legislative proposals arising from Single Market Act I and II. This was an information point only and I did not intervene. Other substantive morning items included Council conclusions on smart regulation, which were adopted without comment.
The lunch discussion focused on industrial policy. Shan Morgan took the UK seat and represented the UK for the rest of the Competitiveness Council.
The discussion over lunch followed on from discussions at a dinner the previous evening on the same subject, which I attended. The main UK messages highlighted the importance of creating the right environment for industries to be competitive, while questioning the need to set a 20% target for industry’s share of the economy. The presidency summed up the discussions in the first agenda item after lunch, reporting on the consensus of the importance of re-industrialisation as a means for employment, and that technical change had opened up various new opportunities which the EU is well placed to benefit from. There were also comments on the importance of energy costs, and the revolution caused by shale gas in the US.
The next substantive agenda item was an exchange of views on the modernisation of EU copyright law, with the Council updated on progress under the Irish presidency on collective rights management, the Commission updating the Council on their ongoing “Licenses for Europe” dialogue, and finally a presentation by Antonio Vitorino on his recent report on private copying and reprography levels. There was a general consensus among member states that the copyright framework needed to be updated to better suit the digital age, and that this work should be based on sound evidence, guided by the principles of technological neutrality, promoting legal offers and providing the necessary protections for creators. Response to the Vitorino report was varied, with the UK’s view that any work in this area should commence after the pending European Court of Justice rulings in this area. This was echoed by many member states.
The final substantive agenda item was a general approach on state aid, with the presidency presenting the current text of the two proposed regulations as a finely balanced compromise. Most member states endorsed the current text, though with some opposing the procedural regulation. Other member states intervened to seek further detailed changes, though were not met with much support. In a broader debate on modernisation, a wide-ranging discussion took place. A significant number of member states asked for further flexibility regarding the Commission’s proposed ban on regional aid to large enterprises in “C” regions. The UK intervened strongly on this point, and also to welcome the regulations as a useful contribution to improving state aid procedures and that state aid was to be used only to address genuine market failure. The presidency concluded that agreement had been reached on the regulations as proposed, and noted the concern of member states concerning regional aid.
Several AOB items were discussed at the Council. The first concerned an update on the state of play of the COSME funding programme, setting out the two remaining issues of size of the budget and settling of the work programme. There was no UK intervention.
The next AOB was the LeaderSHIP item, where the Commission outlined their communication considering how to reinvigorate the European shipbuilding sector. The UK did not intervene, though some did to, for example, welcome the strategy, or to call on the Commission to implement the proposals. There were also calls from some quarters to call for flexible state aid rules in the sector.
At the request of the French delegation, the Commission introduced their proposals to modernise EU trade defence instruments. In a short discussion, there were differing views among the member states that chose to intervene. The UK intervened to welcome the revision of the rules, but also to stress the need that trade defence tools are only used to tackle unfair trade which is damaging to EU producers, and not for other reasons.
For the next AOB, the presidency updated the Council on the discussions that took place at the Informal Competitiveness Council in Dublin earlier in the month, focused on entrepreneurship. There was no discussion on this point.
An AOB was raised by a delegation on the regulations on CO2 emissions from cars and vans. A number of member states intervened on this point, particularly on the issue of “supercredits”.
Following this item there were two further AOBs raised by delegations. The first concerning the Tobacco Products Directive, with some member states concerned on the impact of the proposals on their economies. The UK, and others, intervened to support elements of the Commission’s proposals, stressing the need for a proportionate and evidence-based final text. The second AOB concerned the high-level group on innovation policy management.
The final AOB point to conclude the industry half of the Council concerned the upcoming Lithuanian presidency. The Lithuanian Minister updated the Council on the priorities during their term.
The main research and space issues covered on 30 May were: EU space industrial policy, proposed establishment of a space surveillance and tracking support programme, Horizon 2020, joint programming, high-performance computing, international co-operation in research and innovation, and advisory work for the European research area.
On the space items, the Council adopted conclusions in response to a Commission communication on “EU Space Industrial Policy: Releasing the potential for economic growth in the Space sector”. The Council took note of a proposal for a space surveillance and tracking support programme. Under AOB, the Commission briefly presented its proposals for the funding and operation of the European Earth monitoring programme (Copernicus) 2014-20 (previously known as “GMES”). Their latest proposal reflected the agreement made at February’s European Council that Copernicus should be funded from within the multi-annual financial framework (MFF). It would provide a solid legal base from which to launch the next set of satellites in the “Sentinel” series and support the delivery of downstream applications that would foster economic growth. The Commission emphasised the importance of a swift negotiation on the regulation in order to ensure the programme could launch at the beginning of 2014. The space discussion closed with a short update from the Commission on work to re-evaluate the relationship between the EU and the European Space Agency (ESA). The Commission argued that reciprocal access to the respective decision-making bodies was essential for the relationship to function effectively. The UK intervened to insist that the issue of the Commission role in ESA governance was one that required careful analysis before decisions could be taken by Ministers.
On the research items, the Council adopted conclusions in response to the Commission communication “High Performance Computing: Europe’s place in a Global Race”. These highlighted that HPC is an important asset for the EU’s innovation capacity. The Council then adopted conclusions in response to the Commission’s communication on “Enhancing and focusing EU international co-operation in research and innovation”. The Commission undertook to closely involve member states in the implementation of multi-annual “road maps” for co-operation with selected countries. Council subsequently adopted without discussion a resolution on the advisory work for the European research area (ERA). This resolution agreed that the advisory committee ERAC should be renamed the European Research and Innovation Committee (while keeping the existing acronym ERAC) in order to enhance its advisory role in research-led innovation.
The presidency updated Council on progress in negotiations with the European Parliament on the Horizon 2020 Regulation and associated Rules for Participation Regulation. The presidency noted that seven trialogue meetings had been held with the European Parliament, and that negotiations were now entering a critical phase if a deal was going to be delivered by the end of June. They believed that a compromise package could secure an agreement which did not alter the Council’s agreed position on the reimbursement model. The Commission reiterated the importance of simplification; this was essential to make life more straightforward for participants, and widen participation by reducing barriers to entry. The Council then broke for lunch. After receiving a short presentation from the CERN Council on the European strategy for particle physics, the presidency hosted an informal discussion between heads of delegation on their strategy for the Horizon 2020 negotiations. The UK intervened to support the presidency’s aim of securing political agreement by the end of June, while recognising the need to demonstrate a willingness to compromise on several issues of importance to the European Parliament. Following this discussion the Council reconvened. The presidency concluded without further discussion that a large majority of member states had subscribed to their proposal that simplification and the “flat rate” funding model should be defended and that in exchange the Council could show flexibility on other issues, such as widening participation, a fast track to innovation instrument, some earmarking in favour of renewable energy research, and stronger support for SMEs. As a result of the discussion the presidency noted that they would intensify negotiations with the European Parliament with a view to securing an informal agreement by the middle of June.
A policy debate then took place on joint programming initiatives (JPIs). The UK intervened to underline the strong UK support for JPIs. These were complex initiatives and member states had invested significant time, money and effort in them. In the UK it was for research councils to make decisions about funding. The Commission called for swifter implementation, in particular in relation to alignment of national strategies.
Under AOB, the Commission updated Council on the state of play on the proposal for a Council regulation on the Euratom research and training programme 2014-18 and on the proposal for the European Institute for Innovation and Technology (EIT) programme (these both form part of the Horizon 2020 package). The incoming Lithuanian presidency briefly presented its work programme. The Council also received a short overview of a recently published Communication on Energy Technologies and Innovation. This would be discussed in greater detail at June’s Energy Council.
Reducing Burdens on Small Businesses
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)
I am announcing today a strengthening of this Government’s commitment to bear down on unnecessary regulatory burdens on small businesses.
The Government recognise that the burden of regulation falls disproportionately on small businesses. They have therefore already taken specific and concrete steps to reduce the burden of regulation on smaller businesses, for example:
Saving SMEs £388 million by not extending the right to request time to train to businesses with fewer than 250 employees.
Exempting smaller retailers for three years from the display ban on tobacco, which applies to supermarkets and very large stores from April 2012.
Phasing implementation of pensions automatic enrolment, so that small business will not need to comply until June 2015.
This Government are also reducing the burdens of EU legislation by holding the European Commission to account on their commitment to seek exemptions and lighter regimes for SMEs in new proposals. The Commission’s March SME scoreboard published recent examples, several of which are already bringing major benefits for UK businesses, such as the agreement exempting up to 1.4 million UK small businesses from certain EU accounting rules.
We are also reducing the stock of regulation through the red tape challenge. Many changes resulting from this process will help small businesses. Examples include:
Our radical package of employment tribunal reforms is expected to deliver £40 million of savings per year to employers.
We are committed to a major deregulation of entertainment licensing through 2013.
We are freeing around 1 million self-employed people from health and safety law whose work poses no harm to others.
This Government introduced a three-year moratorium on new domestic regulation for micro-businesses and start-ups from 1 April 2011, in order to support growth and establish a period of increased regulatory stability for the smallest businesses.
The moratorium is an important mark of the Government’s aspirations for reducing regulatory burdens on the smallest businesses.
It reflects established evidence on the disproportionate burden that new regulation places on smaller business, as well as their importance for jobs and growth.
We are now building on these achievements by extending the moratorium in the second half of the Parliament to cover small businesses as well as micros. This will now be known as the small and micro-business assessment (SMBA). It will be supported by independent scrutiny from the Regulatory Policy Committee.
All new proposals for regulation will first undergo an initial departmental impact assessment which will be considered by the independent Regulatory Policy Committee, before facing further challenge and scrutiny by the Reducing Regulation Committee (RRC), a sub-Committee of Cabinet. If at any stage, unnecessary burdens on small businesses are identified, proposals will only be cleared if an exemption is granted to smaller businesses—or if disproportionate burdens on small businesses are fully mitigated.
The Government’s default assumption will continue to be that where a large part of the intended benefits of regulation can be achieved without including smaller businesses, then a formal exemption should apply.
However, where a legislative exemption is not feasible, RRC will only clear new regulatory proposals that provide for a full mitigation of any disproportionate burdens on small businesses and micros. That might include, for example:
extra time for small businesses to comply with new regulations meaning that changes to equipment or processes can be made a time that makes sense for the business;
simplified record keeping requirements for smaller businesses, meaning that those with less staff have to spend less time filling in forms and keeping records compared to larger business;
tailored advice and guidance so that smaller businesses can quickly find out what regulatory changes mean for them in practice;
varying regulatory requirements by size of business, such as inspection frequencies or licensing requirements to ensure a proportionate regulatory approach.
We will also expect Departments to present, as part of the accompanying impact assessment, clear evidence as to the potential impact of the regulation on small businesses and micros, and the effect of their proposed mitigations—including realistic assumptions on levels of compliance.
This change applies now for significant new regulatory proposals that will come into force from 1 April 2014. I have invited the chair of the Regulatory Policy Committee to provide independent challenge to the evidence provided by Departments as part of their “fit for purpose” rating system of impact assessments.
Onshore Wind (Local Planning)
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)
The coalition agreement pledged to decentralise power to local people and give local people far more ability to shape the places in which they live.
Through a series of reforms, this coalition Government are making the planning process more accessible to local communities, because planning works best when communities themselves have the opportunity to influence the decisions that affect their lives.
However, current planning decisions on onshore wind are not always reflecting a locally led planning system. Much of this stems from planning changes made by the last Administration, which is why we introduced the national planning policy framework and abolished the last Government’s top-down regional strategies through the Localism Act.
Following a wide range of representations, including the letter of January 2012 to the Prime Minister from one hundred hon. Members, and in light of the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s call for evidence, it has become clear that action is needed to deliver the balance expected by the national planning policy framework on onshore wind. We need to ensure that protecting the local environment is properly considered alongside the broader issues of protecting the global environment.
Greater community consultation
We have set out clearly in the national planning policy framework the importance of early and meaningful engagement with local communities. The submissions to the call for evidence have highlighted the benefits of good-quality pre-application discussion for onshore wind development and the improved outcomes it can have for local communities.
We will amend secondary legislation to make pre-application consultation with local communities compulsory for the more significant onshore wind applications. This will ensure that community engagement takes place at an earlier stage in more cases and may assist in improving the quality of proposed onshore wind development.
This will also complement the community benefits proposals announced by the Department of Energy and Climate Change today.
New planning practice guidance
The national planning policy framework includes strong protections for the natural and historic environment. Yet, some local communities have genuine concerns that when it comes to wind farms insufficient weight is being given to environmental considerations like landscape, heritage and local amenity. We need to ensure decisions do get the environmental balance right in line with the framework and, as expected by the framework, any adverse impact from a wind farm development is addressed satisfactorily.
We have been equally clear that this means facilitating sustainable development in suitable locations. Meeting our energy goals should not be used to justify the wrong development in the wrong location.
We are looking to local councils to include in their local plans policies which ensure that adverse impacts from wind farms developments, including cumulative landscape and visual impact, are addressed satisfactorily. Where councils have identified areas suitable for onshore wind, they should not feel they have to give permission for speculative applications outside those areas when they judge the impact to be unacceptable.
To help ensure planning decisions reflect the balance in the framework, my Department will issue new planning practice guidance shortly to assist local councils, and planning inspectors in their consideration of local plans and individual planning applications. This will set out clearly that:
the need for renewable energy does not automatically override environmental protections and the planning concerns of local communities;
decisions should take into account the cumulative impact of wind turbines and properly reflect the increasing impact on (a) the landscape and (b) local amenity as the number of turbines in the area increases;
local topography should be a factor in assessing whether wind turbines have a damaging impact on the landscape (i.e. recognise that the impact on predominantly flat landscapes can be as great or greater than as on hilly or mountainous ones); and
great care should be taken to ensure heritage assets are conserved in a manner appropriate to their significance, including the impact of proposals on views important to their setting.
I am writing to Sir Michael Pitt, chief executive of the Planning Inspectorate to ask him to draw this statement to the attention of planning inspectors in their current and future appeals. I will inform colleagues in local government to assist them in their forthcoming decision making.
Electricity and Gas (Market Integrity and Transparency) (Enforcement etc.) Regulations 2013
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)
On 13 November 2012, following allegations of market manipulation in wholesale gas markets, I promised to update the House on implementation of the EU regulation on wholesale electricity and gas market integrity and transparency (REMIT). REMIT prohibits insider dealing and market abuse in wholesale energy markets across Europe and establishes a monitoring regime for wholesale energy trading. It also requires member states to put in place an enforcement and penalty regime for breaches of the regulation.
I am today laying the Electricity and Gas (Market Integrity and Transparency) (Enforcement etc.) Regulations 2013 which will enter into force on 29 June. They give Ofgem powers to take action against market manipulation in wholesale electricity and gas market, including the power to impose unlimited fines in the case of breaches of the regulations. Similar regulations will be laid for Northern Ireland. The UK will be one of the first member states to implement REMIT.
Ofgem and the FCA are continuing their analysis of the allegations into manipulation of the gas markets raised in November 2012.
Onshore Wind
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)
Today we are publishing the Government’s response to the onshore wind call for evidence, which ran for eight weeks between 20 September and 15 November 2012. The call for evidence was issued in two parts.
Part A covered community engagement and benefits, and looked at ways that communities can have more say over, and receive greater benefit from, hosting onshore wind farms in their area. It considered a range of issues, including how wind farm developers consult with local communities about their plans, new ways of ensuring a sense of local ownership , how local economic content can be built up, and whether there are innovative ways of benefiting local energy consumers for example through offsetting electricity bill costs. Part B examined the latest information on the costs of onshore wind in the UK to ensure that the support levels of the technology received through the renewables obligation are no higher than necessary.
We received over 1,100 responses and substantial new evidence from a wide range of stakeholders.
Appropriately sited onshore wind, as one of the most cost effective and proven renewable energy technologies, has an important part to play in a responsible and balanced UK energy policy. It is low-carbon and brings new growth, investment and jobs to the UK economy. It reduces our reliance on imported fossil fuels and helps keep the lights on and our energy bills down. The UK has some of the best wind resources in Europe, and the Government are determined that the UK will retain its reputation as one of the best places to invest in wind energy and renewables more generally. We have also legally committed to ensure that 15% of our energy will come from renewable sources by 2020.
Over 10GWs of renewable electricity was generated from onshore wind in 2011 which is enough to meet the average electricity consumption need of almost 2.5 million households. In addition, since 2010 DECC has recorded announced investments in onshore wind energy totalling over £3.4 billion, with the potential to support around 5,400 jobs.
Community engagement and benefits
It is important that onshore wind is developed in a way that is sustainable—economically, environmentally and socially.
Although, research shows that around two-thirds of people in the UK support onshore wind, we recognise that many people have real concerns about the siting of onshore turbines in their communities and how they are involved in this process. The measures set out in the first part of the response, together with those being announced in parallel today by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, mean communities will have greater say over proposed onshore wind development in their area, and can gain increased benefits from hosting developments that do proceed.
A stronger role for communities
DCLG will introduce changes to the law in England to require onshore wind developers to consult local communities first—before they submit a planning application. This tougher regime will give local people the opportunity to influence proposals at a much earlier stage in the planning process.
DCLG will also issue new and streamlined planning practice guidance, following Lord Taylor’s review, to ensure that planning decisions get the environmental balance right, in line with the national planning policy framework and, as expected by the framework, any adverse impact from a wind farm development is addressed satisfactorily.
We will issue best practice guidance to onshore wind developers, will lay down higher standards expected in relation to their engagement with communities, and a new register will monitor best practice. At the same time we will assist local communities to gain the skills they need to enable them to engage more confidently with developers.
These actions complement the policy changes that the coalition Government have already put in place through its localism agenda and the recent reforms to planning, which put communities at the heart of decision making.
Investing in communities—benefits, ownership and improving local economic impacts
Communities hosting renewable energy installations play a key role in meeting the national need for secure, clean energy. It is only right that local people should be recognised and rewarded for that contribution. This new package of measures on community benefits will ensure that communities receive a fairer share of benefits associated with onshore wind and are properly empowered to negotiate with developers the type of benefit package that best suits their local needs.
Although many onshore wind developers already offer community benefit packages on a voluntary basis, we challenged them to do more. In response therefore we expect the onshore wind industry to revise its community benefit protocol, including an increase in the recommended community benefit package in England from £1,000/MW of installed capacity per year, to £5,000/MW/year for the lifetime of the wind farm (usually around 25 years). To complement this we will be producing guidance and setting up a register of community benefits—so that local communities are properly empowered to discuss and negotiate the types of benefit packages that best suit their needs.
We will also be exploring ways to make it more attractive for communities to invest in wind projects themselves, through the recently issued call for evidence on community energy. A joint DECC/DEFRA £15 million rural community renewable energy fund will also provide loans and grants to rural communities for initial development and planning work.
We will be working with industry and other stakeholders to ensure that the local economic and employment potential of onshore wind projects are maximised. We will also produce supply chain guidance so that all parties—developers, local business and local people are equipped to respond to these opportunities.
The package of measures that DECC, DCLG and the onshore wind industry is announcing today provide a rigorous framework that will bring about real change and introduce more understanding, fairness, trust and mutual benefit between communities and the onshore wind sector.
We will be working across Government over the next 12 months to deliver this change.
Costs
We are committed to ensuring that support levels represent good value for money to the taxpayer and that they reflect the true costs of deploying the technologies. As the costs of deployment fall so will any support.
We have already reduced the support level for onshore wind under the renewables obligation from April 2013 by 10% (from 1 ROC/MWh to 0.9 ROC/MWh to reflect changes in costs). We carried out the second part of the call for evidence to check that this reduced support rate remained appropriate.
A large amount of new cost data have been rigorously analysed by economists and engineers within the Department.
The latest evidence shows that costs remain within the bands set out in the renewables obligation banding review. The mid-point estimates have, however, increased slightly, due to higher costs of planning, and operation and maintenance contracts. The change in the midpoint estimate of costs is less than 5% and thus within the original range.
As this evidence does not show a significant change in costs, it does not meet the legislative requirements for a further review of RO support levels.
This decision ensures ongoing value for money for the consumer and provides more certainty for developers, ensuring continuity of support as contracts for difference are introduced as part of our electricity market reforms. DECC will of course continue to monitor the costs of renewable energy technologies, in accordance with the provisions in article 33 of the Renewables Obligation Order 2009.
Conclusion
The measures that make up our response to the call for evidence will allow the deployment of onshore wind to the level necessary for our energy security and renewable energy goals, but will also ensure that communities will have a greater say over proposed onshore wind development and will receive more reward for hosting those developments that are taken forward. This is an important sector that is driving economic growth and I am determined that local communities should share in these benefits.
1 Sources: quarterly renewable electricity table ET 6.1; and quarterly electricity table ET5.1.
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/energy_stats/source/renewables/renewables.aspx.
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/energy_stats/source/electricity/electricity.aspx.
Average household consumption (GB, 2011) can be found in the our regional electricity statistics here:
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/energy_stats/regional/electricity/electricity.aspx.
Hazardous Waste (National Policy Statement)
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)
Having considered consultation responses and the report of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to the draft national policy statement for hazardous waste which was laid before Parliament on 14 July 2011, I am today laying (under sections 9(8) and 5(4) of the Planning Act 2008), the proposed national policy statement for hazardous waste. The Government’s response to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Select Committee report (under section 9(5) of the Planning Act 2008 was laid earlier this morning.
A written response to the consultation is also being published on the Department’s website at: www.gov.uk.
National policy statements are critical to the new planning system, which will help developers bring forward hazardous waste projects of national significance without facing unnecessary delays. Decisions will be taken in an accountable way by elected Ministers taking social, environmental and economic impacts into account. The process will also ensure that local people have an opportunity to have their say about how their communities develop.
The hazardous waste national policy statement sets out our need for new hazardous waste infrastructure to manage the hazardous waste. Despite measures to prevent and minimise the production of hazardous waste, arisings have remained significant despite the economic downturn. DEFRA’s “Strategy For Hazardous Waste Management in England”, issued in 2010 sets out the Department’s policies for the management of hazardous waste, which are essentially to manage it in accordance with the waste hierarchy, so that we recycle or recover the waste where possible and reduce amounts sent for final disposal. That strategy set out the types of facility needed, some of which are nationally significant.
We look to the market to provide these facilities. The waste industry is best placed to consider the most appropriate types of technologies to use. Government’s role is to provide the right framework and encouragement to the private sector to bring the necessary infrastructure forward. This national policy statement sets out the framework in which decisions for applications for development consent for hazardous waste infrastructure will be made and should provide industry with the clarity it needs to bring forward applications for development consent for new infrastructure for hazardous waste.
The proposed national policy statement for hazardous waste will be designated if a period of 21 sitting days elapses without the House of Commons resolving during that period that the statement should not be proceeded with, pursuant to section 5(4)(a) of the Planning Act 2008.
Asylum Support (Rates)
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper)
The Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 enables the Home Office to support asylum seekers while their application to remain in the UK is determined, and some failed asylum seekers who temporarily are unable to return home. Under these arrangements we provide the claimant and any family members with free fully furnished and equipped housing with no bills to pay, as well as modest rates of financial support to meet their essential day to day living needs.
I have carefully considered whether those rates of financial support are adequate for the purpose set by Parliament, which is to meet the essential living needs of those asylum seekers and their dependants who would otherwise be destitute. I have concluded that they are, and so I am announcing today that the rates will be frozen for the current year.
Criminal Cases Review Commission
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green)
On Friday 19 October 2012 I made a written statement to Parliament announcing the triennial review of the Criminal Cases Review Commission. I am pleased to announce the conclusion of the review and publication of the report today.
Established by the Criminal Appeal Act 1995 as an executive non-departmental body in 1997, the Criminal Cases Review Commission undertakes reviews of possible miscarriages of justice in England, Wales and Northern Ireland with a view to referring appropriate cases to the courts.
The review has concluded that there is a continuing role for the Criminal Cases Review Commission and that it should continue as an executive non-departmental public body. The Commission has been assessed as having a green rating overall for the standards of corporate governance and the recommendation of the report relates to two areas where it has been identified that improvements can be made in order to more closely follow good practice for public bodies.
The triennial review has been carried out with the participation of a wide range of stakeholders and users, in addition to the commission itself the review was publicised on my Department’s website and stakeholders were invited to contribute through a call for evidence and through meetings. In addition to the project board which oversaw the review, a critical friends group challenged the evidence used to make conclusions. A peer reviewer also challenged the evidence for stage two of the review.
I am grateful to all who contributed to this triennial review. The final report has been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
Intelligence and Security Committee Report
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
I am grateful to the Intelligence and Security Committee for its valuable work and its latest report, entitled “Foreign Involvement in the Critical National Infrastructure” (Cm. 8629).
Following consultation with the Committee over matters that could not be published without prejudicing the work of the intelligence and security agencies, the report has been laid before the House.
EU Transport Council
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)
I will attend the final Transport Council of the Irish presidency (the presidency) taking place in Luxembourg on Monday 10 June.
There will be a progress report on the proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing the Connecting Europe facility. In general, I support this proposal and welcome the progress that has been made. However, on the transport side, there remain some issues relating to transport corridors which we are working to resolve.
The presidency intends to agree general approaches on four proposals.
The first is a proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on the interoperability of the rail system within the European Union (Recast) (part of the fourth railway package). I fully support this proposal and the adoption of a general approach by the Council.
The second is a proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on the technical roadside inspection of the roadworthiness of commercial vehicles and a proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council amending Council directive 1999/37/EC on the registration documents of vehicles (roadworthiness package). There are some issues to be resolved on the technical roadside inspection of commercial vehicles aspect of the package where we are concerned about the inclusion of vans. I will express this concern at Council and I will seek to limit the impact on vans. I will be supporting the presidency proposal for a directive on the registration documents of vehicles.
The third is a proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on occurrence reporting in civil aviation amending regulation (EU) No 996/2010 and repealing directive 2003/42/EC, Commission regulation (EC) No 1321/2007 and Commission regulation (EC) No 1330/2007. I fully support this proposal and the adoption of general approach by the Council.
The last is a proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on marine equipment and repealing directive 96/98/EC. This proposal originally contained provisions that would have imposed significant new burdens on the UK maritime industry, such as requirements for electronic tagging and the submissions of patents. During negotiation, we were able to secure the removal of these provisions, and bring the proposal back into line with the existing regime and minimise its impact on business. The UK now supports all the objectives of the proposal, and is content with the current version.
Under any other business, the Commission will present its proposals on the ports policy review and air passenger rights. The Commission will also provide information on the aviation emissions trading scheme (ETS), aviation price transparency and passenger ship safety.
House of Lords
Abortion
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Knight of Collingtree
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they have taken to cease the practice of terminations of pregnancy in NHS hospitals that are not compliant with the Abortion Act 1967.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, in 2012 the Secretary of State instructed the Care Quality Commission to inspect NHS and independent abortion providers to ensure compliance with the Abortion Act 1967. The Chief Medical Officer also wrote to all providers of abortion services, reminding them of their obligations under the Act. All allegations of illegal abortions are taken very seriously and should be reported to the police, who will, if appropriate, conduct a criminal investigation.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree
My Lords, is it not the case that early last year the Government’s own care quality inspectors found, in a number of abortion clinics, piles of forms signed by doctors authorising abortions for women they had never seen, let alone examined? Was it not also reported that other abortions were being done for non-medical reasons such as that the child coming was a girl? Why has so little been done to stop these happenings when they are so blatantly against the law of the land?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the Care Quality Commission has put in place procedures to identify pre-signing or other instances of non-compliance, and they are confident that these would now be picked up during inspections. However, my noble friend is right; there was a concern early last year that this pre-signing was happening. Since then, however, the CQC has been working directly with providers who are registered to provide termination of pregnancy services to ensure that they are complying with the requirements of the Act. It is beginning to explore how it can strengthen the registration process alongside its regular inspection activities. I therefore suggest to my noble friend that it is not a case of nothing having happened.
On sex selection, we have no evidence at all of gender-related abortions in the UK. Again, concerns were expressed about this in the press, but analysis has been done that shows that the UK birth ratio is within normal limits.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
My Lords, does the noble Earl accept that some cases were referred to the police last year where gender abortions were identified? Will he welcome the decision of Ranjit Bilkhu and a group of Asian women in this country to set up an organisation to challenge the attitude that it is permissible to take the life of an unborn child merely because of its gender? Has he noted the Private Member’s Bill of the Member of Parliament for Congleton, Mrs Fiona Bruce, and the Early Day Motion, signed by more than 50 Members of another place, drawing attention to the need at least to collect the data where the gender of a child is known so that we can truly know whether or not this phenomenon is occurring in this country as it does in many other parts of the world, where the three most dangerous words are, “It’s a girl.”?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am aware of all the initiatives mentioned by the noble Lord. The issue of the sex selection of foetuses is, of course, extremely serious. However, as I mentioned in my earlier Answer, following extensive investigation and analysis we do not believe that there is any evidence that this is happening in the UK. That is the prime reason why we do not agree with the noble Lord that measures should be put in place to collect data regularly on the sex of the aborted foetus. Were we to do that it would require changes to legislation. It would also require changes to clinical practice, and it has ethical implications. I hope the noble Lord will understand that we have thought about this very carefully.
Lord Mawhinney
Will my noble friend tell us how many prosecutions have taken place in the last year for terminations that fell outside the Act?
Lord Steel of Aikwood
I thank the Minister for the steps that have been taken to stop abuses of the 1967 Act. Will he confirm that there has been a welcome drop in the total number of abortions recently, but that there is still a problem of what are called repeat abortions, where women present who are clearly using abortion as a form of contraception, which is thoroughly undesirable?
Earl Howe
My noble friend is right. The abortion rate across England and Wales has been static since 2009. The good news is that the abortion rate for women under 18 has gone down. There was a 9.6% decrease in the rate between 2010 and 2011. On repeat abortions, the news is not so good. The proportion of repeat abortions for women who had abortions in 2011 was 36%. The figure was higher than it had been the previous year, which is a matter for concern.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I very much welcome the figures that the Minister gave on the number of abortions going down for younger women, and regret the figure for repeat abortions. Naturally, we must do everything possible to stop illegal abortions. However, will the Minister confirm that it is important that women who need abortions should not be impeded in any way, and that sex education and education about relationships are terribly important? I hope that the Government will be open to accepting amendments to the forthcoming education Bill on that issue.
Earl Howe
I am sure that those issues should be discussed very thoroughly. I agree that young people should be taught about relationships. However, I also believe that access to contraception is very important. Our data show that there has been no decrease in the number of women using contraception, and that more women are turning to extremely effective measures such as long-acting contraception. It is encouraging that the abortion rate for the under-18s is coming down.
Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, how many late abortions have there been for babies who may have had a handicap?
Earl Howe
The vast majority of abortions are performed at under 13 weeks. The figure was 91% in 2011. There has been a continuing increase in the proportion of abortions that are performed under 10 weeks. Again, that is positive news. I do not have detailed information on the issue which the noble Baroness asked about, but I will write to her.
Order of the Companions of Honour
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Lexden
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have plans to increase the membership of the Order of the Companions of Honour.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Order of the Companions of Honour is restricted to a membership of 65 plus the Sovereign. There are no plans to increase the membership of the order, which currently carries a number of vacancies.
Lord Lexden
My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for his reply, I should perhaps make a declaration of non-interest to assure the House that I do not seek to suggest that I should be admitted to this great order. However, since there are no fewer than 24 vacancies, it is rather tempting to propose the names of admired friends—men and women from all parts of the House—although at the moment I would be slightly reluctant to include anyone from the government Front Bench, even my noble friend, for the following reason. Does he agree that anyone looking at the composition of the order today might well think that it is designed primarily for politicians, who constitute no less than half the current membership—21 out of 41? They are, of course, all most worthy recipients, but should not the order reflect more fully the glorious era of British culture and sport in which we are living? Why has no poet been appointed since 1993, no writer since 1999 and no musician since 2000, to help fill the 24 vacancies? As for sport, should not more of its stars be appointed to join its one current representative—my noble friend Lord Coe?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Order of the Companions of Honour is only one of the orders of honour in the British honours system. Service to the state is, after all, one of the central principles under which the various orders have been created. Politicians who belong to the Order of the Companions of Honour have all provided considerable service to the state. Indeed, 16 of them are Members of this House. However, as the noble Lord has also noted, there are a number of people who have made considerable contributions in the fields of music, theatre, fiction writing, history, science and elsewhere. I am happy to say that David Hockney, with his very close connection with Saltaire, is also a member.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, talking of honour and recognition, I am sure the Minister is aware that, 69 years ago today, some 6,800 warships, auxiliaries and merchant ships landed British, American and Canadian forces in Normandy, and that 5,500 of those ships were British. I have to say we are not quite in that position today. Four years before—some 73 years ago this week—Operation Dynamo finished, in which we had expected to manage to withdraw some 80,000 troops of the beaten British Army from Europe, but ended up taking out more than a third of a million. In the context of honour and recognition, I am sure that the noble Lord would like to give the thanks of the House for all those people who were involved in those two operations.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, that is a little wide of the mark. It is appropriate to pull the subject back towards the Question by saying that the Order of the Bath has a particularly strong military connection, as the noble Lord well knows. Every time I give a tour of the Abbey, which I do from time to time as a former chorister, I remark that one sees the military banners up in Henry VII’s chapel.
Baroness Deech
What proportion of the Companions of Honour are women? Is the noble Lord satisfied that the highest honours which can be awarded, including the Order of Merit, satisfactorily represent the contribution of women to the achievements of this country?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
That is an extremely good question. We are very conscious of the imbalance in gender terms of almost all the orders and honours which are awarded. Only four of the 41 members of the Order of the Companions of Honour are women. However, nearly half the honours awarded in the latest New Year Honours List—47%—were awarded to women, although the majority of those were at what one has to call the lower levels of honours, not the higher. That, of course, partly reflects the continuing imbalance in society and the economy. Since John Major’s changes in 1993, it is open to all British citizens to nominate people for honours. There were 3,000 nominations last year. I encourage everyone to think very actively who else, particularly among distinguished women, might be nominated for orders.
Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that there is to be a debate later in this Session about making Alan Turing a non-criminal. Despite the fact that he made an enormous contribution to this country’s future, would his criminal conviction, as things stand, prevent him being made a Companion of Honour?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, my briefing assured me that honours were not to be withdrawn from people who have died, and I think that the awarding of honours to people who have died would also be outwith the honours system as it is currently understood. However, we would all strongly agree that Alan Turing suffered quite appalling discrimination. Both my parents-in-law worked with the noble Baroness at Bletchley Park.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, does not the nature of this Question indicate the scale of the disconnect between the people of this country and the politicians?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Not entirely. The honours list in recent years has included an ever larger number of people who provide public service, often without reward, at the lower levels. I processed up the Abbey on Tuesday morning behind a lollipop lady who was there because we were demonstrating different forms of public service to the country. I am happy to say that the number of teachers, including head teachers, who receive awards has been increasing in recent years. Eight head teachers received senior honours in the latest honours list.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, what is the ethnic balance among those in the order?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Amartya Sen, I have to say. The issue of ethnic balance is also one of which the various honours committees are extremely well aware. I think 6% of those in the latest honours list were members of ethnic minorities. We are conscious that we have to look actively at that issue. Again I would say to everyone here and to all those whom noble Lords know outside, we encourage public nominations. Perhaps I may also add, as someone who lives in Yorkshire, the English regions are underrepresented. If you live in London, Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales, you have a better chance of being honoured than if you live in Yorkshire or the north-east.
Garden Cities
Lord Stoneham of Droxford
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will publish the prospectus for the establishment of new garden cities.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
My Lords, very large-scale new housing developments are difficult, complex projects that involve long-term investment. This is illustrated by the fact that no developments of more than 10,000 homes have been delivered since the new towns programme. We are working with areas such as Bicester, which have expressed an interest in significant future housing growth that incorporates garden city principles such as high standards of quality and design, varied architecture, and provision of green space and gardens.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford
May I encourage my noble friend to be a little more specific? The Government promised a prospectus in their housing strategy published in November 2011. Unless the Government publish their prospectus for garden cities this summer or within at least two years of promising to do so, is there not a danger that people will question the Government’s determination to tackle the past decade’s undersupply of housing and avoid the possibility of a house price boom in the next 10 years?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, the Question is very apt but it relates almost entirely to big developments because garden city developments are not in their nature small. The noble Lord will know that these sites are very complicated. The garden city principles were enumerated by the Deputy Prime Minister in his speech to the National House-building Council last November. He said that we should build places which,
“draw on the best of British architecture and design, which have their own identity and character”,
and have a crucial role in keeping the countryside intact. He said that garden cities enable people to live sustainably and to move easily between work and home. Those are very large principles and demonstrate that a development needs to be large to bring all that in.
Baroness Sharples
Can my noble friend say whether allotments will be included in these plans?
Baroness Hanham
My noble friend never misses an opportunity to mention allotments. Of course, if allotments were proposed—and they could be—within these plans, I am sure they would be considered by the local authority. In any case, as my noble friend knows, no allotment ground can be vacated without the Secretary of State’s permission.
Lord Best
Does the Minister agree that some major and new settlements can take place within urban areas, incorporating all the good principles that she has mentioned—the Olympic Village being one such example and, now, even the big King’s Cross redevelopment? Will plenty of encouragement be given in any prospectus that comes out for urban-based new settlements?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I readily accept what the noble Lord has said. Housing is not going to be confined to new areas. It will of course take place in conjunction with cities or towns, and indeed I think that Cranbrook and Bicester would fill those requirements. I totally agree with the noble Lord on that point.
Lord Taylor of Goss Moor
I should say that I have various declared interests and draw the House’s attention to them. I have had a long-term belief that creating new communities relieves the pressure to surround existing communities with undesirable development, while still delivering the housing, workplaces and services that people need. The Deputy Prime Minister and the Prime Minister have both promised the prospectus, which would give a lead to organisations and local authorities in understanding what the Government want. Can the Minister explain why that has not yet happened and can she give any indication of when it will?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I have indicated that the principles laid out in the prospectus and draft prospectus are already being dealt with and are already being incorporated into the proposals and designs for these larger sites. The local infrastructure fund, which has recently been set up by my department, helps with the sort of matter that the noble Lord has raised—that of the additional pressures placed on local communities—by providing funding for things such as schools and opening up roads.
Lord Christopher
I have heard what the noble Baroness has said about the issues arising from garden cities, but would it not greatly speed up the provision of houses if major developers were required to develop properly and genuinely the sites for which they already have planning permission?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I think that these are all different matters—we have completely different proposals being put forward. Yes, some of the developments will be where planning permission has already been given, some will be where discussions have already taken place and some will be on new sites. We have to ensure that we are flexible but insistent that these are good developments for the future and that we are not just building anonymous estates that do not bring any sense of community.
Lord Flight
My Lords, do the Government have any plans for the refurbishment of some of the new towns built around London after the Second World War where the fabric of some of the buildings is now decaying fast?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I think that it would be for local authorities to make plans for any refurbishment of that kind within their housing plans. As the noble Lord knows, the Government have a programme to bring back in empty housing and, as I said, the wider programmes for the refurbishment of larger areas are a matter for local authorities.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, can the Minister tell us the difference between a garden city and an eco-town?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, garden cities are what we are dealing with at the moment. Eco-towns were not very successful, but we hope that the larger developments that we are working with will get off the ground.
Lobbyists: Register
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will introduce a register of lobbyists.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Government have repeatedly made clear their commitment to introducing a statutory register of lobbyists. We will introduce legislation to provide for a lobbying register before the Summer Recess.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
My Lords, we probably all agree that this is a difficult matter and that it is gratifying to learn from the Minister that the Government have plans to do something about it. I am sure he will agree that it is a pity that we are having this discussion now in the glare of further unwelcome and, on the whole, ill intentioned media attention, particularly as the coalition agreement, as I understand it, committed in 2010 to,
“regulate lobbying through introducing a statutory register of lobbyists”.
Does he further agree, however, that the regulation of lobbying is a separate issue from reforming funding of political parties? Can he confirm that the Government will not conflate these two matters in any legislation they now bring forward?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
The Government do not intend to conflate these matters although there is a degree of overlap between the two. The Government intend to look at the question of third-party funding of political activities, including the issue of campaign groups which are not affiliated with political parties spending money during election campaigns. The Electoral Commission has annotated that some £3 million was spent during the last election by a number of organisations with the intention to influence the election.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, the Minister has indicated that he sees a need, quite rightly so, for the ability to remove from this House people who have been convicted of serious criminal offences. Can we take it that he will now abandon his long-standing opposition to the Steel Bill, which this House has sought to introduce on several occasions and which would have provided for this very measure?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, discussions are under way on that question and it is likely that a Bill will be introduced in the next Session which will deal with a number of such issues to do with parliamentary behaviour and what is called parliamentary housekeeping.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, would journalists who have credentials in both Houses be entitled to be on the register for lobbyists? In other words, will they be allowed dual membership?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, one of the reasons why it has taken much longer than we intended to produce a statutory register of lobbyists is because the definition of who is a lobbyist is extremely difficult. The Labour Government before this Government also struggled with that. As all who have studied this area will know, the issue is whether one simply limits the register to third-party lobbyists—those who are professional lobbyists working on behalf of someone else—extends it to the category of lobbyists for for-profit companies such as the entire public affairs sector of a major company or beyond there to those who lobby for non-profit organisations such as Oxfam, Christian Aid or the RSPCA. That takes one into an extremely wide area which is difficult to define.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
Given that it has been over a year since the consultation concluded, we welcome the announcement today that there will be a Bill before the Summer Recess. However, will the Minister now ensure that his department replies to the letter from my honourable friend in the other place, Jon Trickett, asking for immediate cross-party talks on this issue? There is agreement about the need for a register and for a code of conduct. Cross-party talks on those issues in the immediate future would be welcome. Can the Minister confirm that he will do that?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I take the point. Of course, as in all delicate legislation of this kind, the wider the consensus we can get the better. The lobbying area is immensely more complex than I understood before I began to go into it. This is one of the many areas where we need to work together as widely as we can.
Lord Tyler
On the answer that he has just given, can my noble friend confirm that the Labour Party, which, after all, failed over 13 years to deal with this problem, is prepared to co-operate fully so that we can take the whole issue under consideration? All three parties committed themselves to taking big money out of politics. Can he confirm that the Government’s objective is to have maximum transparency and simplicity so that our fellow citizens can see precisely where influence and access are being bought? In that context, can he also indicate that that should be the objective even if sometimes that big money is being used in a tax-efficient way?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, every three months I am amazed by the detail in which the Government Whips’ Office on behalf of the Cabinet Office Propriety and Ethics Team goes through my diary and asks me exactly who I met and when. This Government are extremely tight in terms of looking at who has contact with all members of the ministerial team. The problem, of course, is that we meet all sorts of people. I have one or two friends from school or university who are now working in major public affairs organisations. If I meet them as part of that friendship, do we also happen to overlap into other matters? There are many difficult issues around how this can be taken and where to draw the line.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, does the Minister accept that there is nothing intrinsically wrong in lobbying provided that it is undertaken within a proper framework that is transparent and that, if done properly, it can serve the interests of Members of all parties in both Chambers? One thinks of disability lobbying, for example. Is it not in the interests of lobbyists themselves, as well as Members of both Chambers, that a new framework is introduced?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I could not have put it better on behalf of the Government, and I note the consensus on a cross-party basis to that effect. The noble Lord may have seen the story in the Financial Times yesterday to the effect that public affairs consultants are thinking of taking to the European Court of Human Rights the case that to submit them to a statutory register—but only those who are third-party lobbyists—would be an infringement of their human rights. I think that that will be an interesting case to try to get the European Court of Human Rights to take.
Lord Wills
My Lords, the Minister said that the Government are looking to regulate third-party funding in election campaigns. Can he confirm that that will include referendum campaigns?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I cannot confirm that, but I imagine that it would. Discussions are still under way, but I take the point. Clearly, there are slightly different rules for referendum campaigns, and as I recall from previous referendums, there have been umbrella bodies which have had to declare their funding. We are thinking much more about the sort of campaign groups which we have seen growing up, be they animal welfare groups, low tax groups and so on, trying to intervene. Again, we want to make sure that everything is as transparent as possible in the political process. I will come back to the noble Lord on the referendum issue.
Planning: Onshore Wind
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
My Lords, with the permission of the House, I would like to repeat the Answer to an Urgent Question asked in the other place.
“The coalition agreement pledged to decentralise power to local people and give local people far more ability to shape the places in which they live. Through a series of reforms, this coalition Government are making the planning process more accessible to local communities, because planning works best when communities themselves have the opportunity to influence the decisions that affect their lives. However, current planning decisions on onshore wind are not always reflecting a locally led planning system.
Following a wide range of representations, including the letter of January 2012 to the Prime Minister from 100 honourable Members, and in light of the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s call for evidence, it has become clear that action is needed to deliver the balance expected by the National Planning Policy Framework on onshore wind. We need to ensure that protecting the local environment is properly considered alongside the broader issues of protecting the global environment.
Today, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has published the response to his call for evidence on onshore wind. This sets out how the Government have listened and are responding to what has been said. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government has this morning in support set out our intentions for planning. Let me set these out.
We have set out clearly in the National Planning Policy Framework the importance of early and meaningful engagement with local communities. The submissions to the call for evidence have highlighted the benefits of good quality pre-application discussion for onshore wind development and the improved outcomes that can have for local communities. We will amend secondary legislation to make pre-application consultation with local communities compulsory for the more significant onshore wind applications. This will ensure that in more cases community engagement takes place at an earlier stage and may assist in improving the quality of proposed onshore wind development. This will also complement the community benefits proposals announced by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change today.
The National Planning Policy Framework we published last year includes strong protections for the natural and historic environment. Yet some local communities have genuine concerns that when it comes to wind farms, insufficient weight is being given to environmental considerations such as landscape, heritage and local amenity. We need to ensure that decisions get the environmental balance right in line with the framework and, as expected by the framework, any adverse impact from a wind farm development is addressed satisfactorily.
We have been equally clear that this means facilitating sustainable development in suitable locations. Meeting our energy goals should not be used to justify the wrong development in the wrong location. We are looking to local councils to include in their local plans policies that ensure that adverse impacts from wind farm developments, including cumulative landscape and visual impact, are addressed satisfactorily. Where councils have identified areas suitable for onshore wind, they should not feel they have to give permission for speculative applications outside those areas when they judge the impact to be unacceptable.
To help ensure planning decisions reflect the balance in the framework, my department will issue new planning practice guidance shortly to assist local authorities and planning inspectors in their consideration of local plans and individual planning applications.
This will set out clearly that: first, the need for renewable energy does not automatically override environmental protections and the planning concerns of local communities; secondly, decisions should take into account the cumulative impact of wind turbines and properly reflect the increasing impact on, first, the landscape and, secondly, local amenity as the number of turbines in the area increases; thirdly, local topography should be a factor in assessing whether wind turbines have a damaging impact on the landscape—that is, recognising that the impact on predominantly flat landscapes can be as great or greater than on hilly or mountainous ones; and that great care should be taken to ensure heritage assets are conserved in a manner appropriate to their significance, including the impact of proposals on views important to their setting.
We will be writing to the Planning Inspectorate and councils to flag up that new guidance will be available shortly”.
That concludes the Statement.
Baroness Worthington
My Lords, I awoke this morning to find out from Twitter that the Secretary of State, Ed Davey, has just made another one of his grand bargains, this time with DCLG on onshore wind. I have to say that my heart sank. Yet again, it is a terrible bargain. In return for changes to planning laws that will undoubtedly make it more difficult to build wind farms, he has won an increase in the amount of money that communities can receive. Can the Minister explain what the benefit of that money will be if this pandering to a vocal minority ensures that planning laws are changed so that none of them gets built? Will these new rules also apply to planning applications for shale gas fracking?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, the unusual source of the remarks by the noble Baroness took me by surprise. I want to make it clear that this is not a change to the National Policy Planning Framework; it is an underscoring of what that policy has always said about the involvement of local communities in the development of local plans. Wind farms fall into the capacity of local plans and local structures. We are therefore making sure, for any wind farm development, that developers must talk to the local community before they put those plans forward and that the local authority also takes that into account. At present, it is not mandatory, and this will make it mandatory. The rules for fracking are not relevant to this particular Statement.
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, why does my noble friend think that neither the Answer she has repeated nor indeed the commendably brief intervention of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, made any mention at all of the impact on the consumer of electricity prices? Fuel poverty is reaching record levels and millions of families are finding present energy costs almost unbearable. The additions implicit in what she is saying must be quite considerable. Why is there no mention at all of cost—what about the consumer?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I hesitate. I once got told off because I referred to another department while I was replying for the Government. The cost of electricity and the impact on that is a matter for the Department of Energy and Climate Change, and the Statement from the Secretary of State there will refer to that.
Lord Geddes
My Lords, have the Government taken into account at the very least the admirable provisions of the Private Member’s Bill from my late and much lamented noble friend Lord Reay, in which there was a correlation between the height of a wind turbine and the distance from human habitation?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, the Statement referred to the thresholds that will be considered. I have no doubt that that is one of the aspects that will need to be taken into account. Of course, it is something that local communities will be expected to think about in the process of having discussions and deciding whether to oppose strongly any application or to see if it can be amended. With a great sadness that Lord Reay is not here himself to make that point, I think that he might be quite satisfied with the way things are moving.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top
My Lords, are the Government thinking of doing the same with open-cast coal, which they do not seem to be interested in at all? I would welcome the Minister to Durham, where I am surrounded by wind turbines, which are so much more attractive than the coal mines and the open-cast mines that we had, and still have, in our locality. There are a lot of myths around this. The Government need to show leadership, which will get us cheaper, more effective energy that is long-lasting and sustainable.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I do not think that this Government or the previous Government ever pretended or thought that wind power was ever going to provide for all our energy needs. Therefore, this is part and parcel of the package that we need to take us into the future. That also includes nuclear and coal, which are still there. I come from the north-east so I appreciate what impact mines have, but until we are clearer about the need for energy they probably will not be abandoned.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
The noble Baroness has assured us that the impact upon aesthetic values and considerations will indeed be very relevant. Can she say whether that will be a peripheral or a central and fundamental consideration? If so, how will these fundamental considerations be valued one against another; in other words, who will come to that almost impossible Solomonic decision?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I do not want to get tempted into discussing what the guidance will say. The point the noble Lord has raised is central. However, we have made it clear that the aesthetic as well as the heritage impact will be relevant to what the guidance says. I will make sure that what the noble Lord has asked is taken into account.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, the Answer referred to the cumulative effect of planning applications for wind turbines. In an area such as the Pennines, where there is quite a dense but dispersed network of farms in many of the great open upland landscapes, if each of these settlements puts in for a couple of large wind turbines—which on their own might be acceptable—at what stage does it turn into a wind farm covering the whole area? Are the Government paying attention to this problem?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, the Statement refers to major applications. However, as I suggested in the Statement, where wind farms become cumulative it seems to me that that will need to be taken into account.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, what estimate has been made of the potential decline in the number of wind farm approvals to be made in the United Kingdom? What form is the public benefit—this buying of local communities—going to take? Can we have some more detail on how that will work?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, this does not change what the National Planning Policy Framework lays out at the moment. It advises that local people should be consulted about major planning applications. The Statement says that it will be amended so that they must be consulted. That then makes it a material consideration for the decision on planning applications and must be taken into account. Whether that increases or decreases the number of approvals given will become clearer, but, one way or the other, it seems to us essential that local people, who will feel the impact of wind farms—indeed, who already have experience of them—have a proper say on any future proposal.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I express the hope that localism will be more than tokenism here. Much as I welcome what my noble friend said, does she accept that the vast majority of onshore wind farms are uneconomic, unreliable and very unsightly?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend does not really expect me to say any of that. I can only repeat that we are trying to ensure that they are acceptable, aesthetic and take into account people’s views. I should also make it clear that this guidance and the Statement refer to England, not the whole of the United Kingdom.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, how much is being allocated for the so-called incentivisation of local communities to accept wind farms? Where is the money coming from? Is it coming from the hidden subsidy on electricity bills—in which case, would we not be bribing people with their own money?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I am not certain where the noble Lord is coming from. He is rather suggesting that local people are to be bribed to have wind farms. My Statement, to which I stick firmly, is about ensuring that they are consulted.
Business of the House
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That the debates on the Motions in the names of Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Dubs set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.
Taxation: Evasion and Avoidance
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
To move that this House takes note of the economic and social consequences of tax evasion and avoidance.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I am particularly pleased to have obtained this debate on this subject, which is not just tax evasion and tax avoidance but the social and economic consequences of that tax evasion and avoidance. I must say I am disappointed that no Conservative Members have sought to participate in the debate; it might have added an interesting angle—some spice—to it, although I understand that some of the things that they might try to defend are not easy to defend. Tax is a question of a real moral imperative as well as having profound practical consequences. Those who dodge their legitimate tax obligation commit a severe moral breach, but they also deprive our schools and hospitals of much needed investment and create problems for responsible businesses that pay their full share of taxation.
Tax evasion and avoidance is not new. Plato—I see that the Convenor of the Cross-Benches is looking astonished that I am quoting Plato—said that when there is income tax, the just man will pay more and the unjust less on the same amount of income. How true that is. However, what is new about the current crisis in tax is the scale of the issue and how far out of control we have let it go. The amount that we lose in the United Kingdom in uncollected taxes is a third of the deficit. It dwarfs the personal tax allowance, and it is more than twice the size of the bill for housing benefit—and how often do we hear about all those? That is nearly £40 billion. It is a cash sum the size of the budgets of some government departments, which are being asked to make cuts that are causing tremendous problems. We have heard of them recently in debates on legal aid and defence, and of all the difficulties that are being created for our departments. It is money that could be used to cut the deficit, to build 2,500 new schools or to employ more than 1 million new nurses, teachers and policemen. On its own, tax evasion is costing the average household £530 every year.
These are the real and significant costs of tax evasion and tax avoidance. In responding to them, as well as in talking about the moral principles at stake, I will of course address some of the solutions to the problems, but first we must say that not paying your full and legitimate share of tax is immoral. By making use of our roads or our highly trained workforce, or by breathing our clean air, or even by casting a vote, you are bound by the obligations of society—and one of those key obligations, agreed through our democratic process, is to pay your legitimate share of taxation.
Lord Campbell-Savours
If my noble friend will allow me to intervene, I wonder whether he might be able to tempt the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, out of his corner on the question of a flat tax in his whole argument.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I have never been able to tempt the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on anything up till now, but I am sure that if he feels constrained, he will come in.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I agree with everything that the noble Lord said in respect of tax evasion, but he has linked that to avoidance as if they were the same thing. Does he think that political parties that receive money from donors should return such donations to those who say that they constructed them in such a way as to avoid paying as much tax?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My remarks are addressed as much to them as they are to other people.
When you fail to pay your fair share of tax, you break that obligation. This results in unfairness. Can we be proud of a country where 500,000 people are forced to rely on food banks while the average rate of income tax paid by the top earners is only 10% of their vast income, or where the high street shops that we are so proud of are closing at 10 times the rate at which they did in 2011, yet Amazon gets away with paying a paltry £2.4 million on sales of £4 billion? Such contrasts make a mockery of our democracy and are shameful. I do not, therefore, apologise for speaking on this issue in moral terms. It is a moral issue. When Roger Carr of the CBI says to us politicians, “Don’t make tax a moral issue”, he sounds like a man who does not want to have an argument that he knows he has already lost.
However, we need to have that argument. The argument against having a moral debate is that morality has no role to play in the solution of the problem. Of course, the solution has to be practical, but I would argue that it will involve making companies and individuals pay more tax—their fair share of tax—rather than persuading them. Yet the will to get to grips with the complex, practical problems and the energy to make people pay tax will come because of moral outrage, so we must continue to highlight the moral issue. It might not provide the solution, but it is how the solution can be achieved. It will provide the momentum or force to get that solution.
I realise that speaking in these terms may get some disapproving looks from powerful chief executives. They dismiss the campaigns of politicians and think tanks such as Progress, which is now running an excellent campaign on this, and respected NGOs such as ActionAid, which has produced some reports—I have one of them here—about the effect on developing countries of tax avoidance. I know that some of my colleagues will touch on that as well. They dismiss these as being anti-business. On the contrary, a fair tax system is about being pro-business but responsible business. In the UK, our bricks and mortar retailers are being driven out of business by online operators, based offshore, that can get away with not paying tax. Reputable companies such as John Lewis are struggling to compete with global firms that can spirit their profits out of the country. The status quo of allowing large-scale tax avoidance and evasion is favouring the large multinationals, which can pour resources into avoidance. That is hurting the growth of small and innovative British business, and it needs to be challenged.
I was glad to get a letter from the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, who unfortunately cannot be here today, in support of what I am arguing. He has given me permission to quote him. He says that,
“the already highly destructive effects of gross disparity in earnings”—
are “dire in the extreme”. He does not have very good writing, by the way. He also says:
“Restoration of some sense of civic duty is also essential”.
I have given the essence of what he says.
So what are the solutions? There is no single solution to the problem. Some of the options require international co-operation, and I welcome, as I did in the European Union Select Committee on Tuesday, the decision that was made at the recent Council of Ministers. However, we cannot allow the fact that some of the decisions have to be made internationally to serve as an excuse for us not taking action here in the United Kingdom, if for no other reason than to set an example. When we speak on this, it would give us greater authority on the international stage.
First, we need an HMRC with more bite. Tax avoidance is itself an industry. The big four accountancy firms make £2 billion a year, In order to challenge that kind of vested interest, HMRC needs to be given significantly more muscle. The £154 million so-called “blitz” that the Chancellor recently announced simply does not match up, especially—and I hope that the Minister will deal with this—against a backdrop of overall cuts to HMRC that will diminish it to its lowest staffing level ever by 2015. For every £1 invested in HMRC, £9 is returned to the Exchequer. That is a real investment. For every 10 cases of tax evasion brought by the Crown Prosecution Service, nine end in a conviction. So we have some of the tools, but we need more and we need to make them tougher.
We also need an HMRC that is more transparent. While HMRC is of necessity a big part of the solution, it is also currently part of the problem. With no proper ministerial oversight, it has become a closed community that cuts deals with big business. Noble Lords will have heard the stories of Vodafone having £8 billion in tax waived, which appear to go largely unchallenged. We need to be able to put a spotlight on HMRC. We need it to disclose the deals that are being done with big business. Every year HMRC writes off £5 billion that it knows that it will not collect. We need to be able to hold it accountable for that and for it to become substantially more transparent.
The chair of the Public Accounts Committee in the Commons, Margaret Hodge—who is doing a terrific job, by the way—has called for the publication of the tax affairs of the FTSE 100, which may be a provocative idea but certainly has great merit.
We need the Government to negotiate a series of new multilateral automatic information exchanges. While the recent agreement signed between our overseas territories and the EU G5 is welcome, it is just a small first step. We need agreements that go further and draw in a greater number of participants. Developing countries in particular, as I have said, need to be brought within the fold. Rampant tax-dodging means that many of them are unable to capture the benefits of the foreign investment occurring within their boundaries. They would be less reliant on aid and therefore less dependent on us developed countries if they received the tax revenues that are due to them from the multinational companies operating within their boundaries.
We also need a public register of beneficial ownership. If we do not act on beneficial ownership and tax, we have not got to the nub of the problem. David Cameron, the Prime Minister, was right to call on our overseas territories to develop a register, but this is an issue on which the UK should lead from the front. At present, we have no formal obligation for companies to register their beneficial owner, so front companies are set up, and it is difficult to know who is the ultimate beneficial owner. We need to pull back the curtain and see who is really benefiting from tax scams. We must change that and set the kind of example that will enable us to speak with authority on this issue at the G8 and then at the G20. I am sure my colleagues around the House who are participating will make other useful suggestions.
Finally, I shall try to anticipate one of the Minister’s defensive responses. He might try the familiar attack on Labour’s 13 years of government, using one of the four or five clichéd images circulated in the memos we have see from government: “Asleep at the wheel”, and so on. I am happy to have a conversation with the noble Lord, Lord Newby, and any other Minister at any other time, but that is not the subject for today. Today we are challenging the present Government, who have been in power for three years, about what they are doing. Therefore I ask the Minister, first, whether he will agree with me, and more importantly with the Public Accounts Committee, that cuts of as much as £2 billion to HMRC have hindered our ability to collect tax, and will the Government think again about those cuts in the coming spending review. Secondly, will he commit the Government to a public register of beneficial ownership? Thirdly, will he encourage the Prime Minister to lead a multilateral automatic information exchange that is much broader and much more ambitious than any that has gone before and that includes, above all, the developing countries? I hope that his answer to each of those questions is positive. Unless he does so, he will not have answered the challenge that I put at the start, and he will have failed the people who are losing because of the tax dodging. I hope that today we can have a positive response from a Minister who I know deep in his heart is sympathetic to the cause that I have been putting. I beg to move.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend and my good friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock on securing this timely and important debate, and on his characteristically robust speech of introduction in which he covered quite a lot of the waterfront. He constantly promised that others would add to it. I am not entirely sure that he has left much room for anybody to add anything, but I shall do my best while trying not to repeat what he has already said in great part.
It is disappointing that so few Members of your Lordships’ House consider this issue important enough to make a contribution to the debate because it is hugely important. The scale is mindboggling in the United Kingdom, as my noble friend has already said. According to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, the tax gap—the difference between what Revenue and Customs believes should have been paid and what it received from the entire economy—amounted to £32 billion in 2011-12. One can disaggregate that, and it is interesting to see that it is not all corporation tax. Quite a substantial part of it is VAT, there is some customs and excise avoidance and a comparatively smaller amount is income tax. It is a significant amount of money. As my noble friend said, it is a third of the deficit for 2012-13. If this money were brought in, it would obviate the necessity for any further spending cuts; it would deal with that issue. While I accept the remonstrations of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, that we should be careful not to conflate tax avoidance and tax evasion, I do not think that there are any positive consequences from either of them for our community.
The tax avoidance industry is clearly damaging the interests of developed countries, including our own; there is no question. It is almost certain, however, that the harmful tax practices are an even greater problem for economies in transition and for developing countries. The leader of my party said recently:
“If everyone approaches their tax affairs as some of these companies have approached their tax affairs we wouldn't have a health service, we wouldn’t have an education system”.
Thankfully, everyone does not, but he makes a very important point. This is exactly the case in many of the world’s poorest countries. Because of the way in which businesses approach their tax affairs, many of these countries do not have these basic services that we can continue to sustain. It is estimated that countries in the developing world lose three times more money—three times more—to tax dodging than they receive in aid every year. The estimate is that they lose about £160 billion a year through tax dodging. If that money stayed in those countries, rather than being spirited away to the offshore accounts of multinational companies, it could be transformative. These tax havens—to which I will come back in a moment—are the life support system for that tax dodging, and the plug needs to be pulled on them. They play no useful role in the global economic system.
In 2004—I cannot find any more recent statistics but perhaps the Minister can—half of the world’s trade appeared to pass through tax havens. That is 50% that at some stage passed through a tax haven, even though these jurisdictions contributed then only 3% of the global GDP. Recent ActionAid research—which I believe is the research that my noble friend held in his hand while making his speech—reveals among other things that the taxes lost to Zambia from tax haven transactions from just one United Kingdom Company, Associated British Foods, was a sum 19 times greater than the United Kingdom’s aid to Zambia for hunger—19 times more from the activity of one British company. That would be enough, ActionAid estimated, to send 48,000 Zambian children to school each year. This is a scandal, which needs to be addressed. I will accept the remonstrations of the Minister, which no doubt we will receive, that nothing was done about this for a significant time when we were in power, and we have to live with that. However, we are learning much more about this now and there is much more understanding of the effect of these issues. What is now necessary is collective action, to which we on these Benches and across this House should contribute.
I turn for a minute to the issue of morality. Frankly, I am fed up with being lectured to by chief executives of industry, who tell me that they have some kind of moral duty to minimise taxation. I will address that point in this way. In September 2012, writing in the context of the revelation that the then presidential candidate Mitt Romney revealed—or was forced to reveal—that he had been subject to an income tax rate of “at least 13%” for the previous 10 years, Joseph Stiglitz, the US economist and celebrated professor at Columbia University, wrote on his blog:
“Democracies rely on a spirit of trust and co-operation in paying taxes. If every individual devoted as much energy and resources as the rich do to avoiding their fair share of taxes, the tax system either would collapse, or would have to be replaced by a far more intrusive and coercive scheme”.
He goes on to say:
“Both alternatives are unacceptable … More broadly, a market economy could not work if every contract had to be enforced through legal action. But trust and co-operation can survive only if there is a belief that the system is fair. Recent research has shown that a belief that the economic system is unfair undermines both co-operation and effort. Yet, increasingly, Americans are coming to believe that their economic system is unfair; and the tax system is emblematic of that sense of injustice”.
In concluding, he wrote that,
“tax avoidance on Romney’s scale undermines belief in the system’s fundamental fairness, and thus weakens the bonds that hold a society together”.
That is my first point about morality—and I rely on Joseph Stiglitz, who put it better than I could.
I have already said that all the economic and social consequences of tax avoidance and tax evasion, which we are debating today, are corrosive, and none of them is positive. Paying tax is one of the fundamental ways in which private and corporate citizens engage with each other and with broader society. Tax revenues are the life blood of that social contract—and, dare I say it, the life-blood of the big society. They are vital to the development and maintenance of physical infrastructure and to sustaining the infrastructure of justice that almost all the people who operate in this system rely on to underpin liberty and their market economy. Why is it, therefore, that tax minimisation through elaborate and frequently aggressive tax avoidance strategies has come to be regarded as one of the prime duties that directors are required to perform on behalf of their shareholders? Why has it been elevated to a moral imperative, when not paying fair taxes is not?
My noble friend made reference to the observations of Sir Roger Carr, the CBI chairman. This man’s views on the issue deeply worry me. He is the representative of British industry. Speaking at the University of Oxford’s Said Business School on 19 May, he said:
“It is only in recent times that tax has become an issue on the public agenda”.
I have to say that I do not know where he has been living, but certainly all my adult life tax has been an issue on the public agenda. He goes on to refer to,
“Starbucks, Google, Amazon—businesses that the general public know and believe they understand”.
I do not understand that part of the sentence. I think he is trying to give an impression that somehow these organisations are a good in themselves and that understanding them somehow means that we like them. We may use them, but I do not have that relationship with those organisations. He continues,
“businesses with a brand that become a perfect political football, the facts difficult to digest; public passions easy to inflame”.
He goes on, in what is clearly a criticism of rhetoric from our Prime Minister. He says that tax avoidance,
“cannot be about morality—there are no absolutes”.
I do not think I need to go much further than that; not many people in your Lordships’ House would not understand why I am disturbed that the man who represents our industry at its very pinnacle holds these views. I would like the opportunity to engage with him about them, but I cannot have that opportunity here. I do not really understand why he feels compelled to make that argument, particularly in the face of the fact that, in January, our Prime Minister said in a speech to the World Economic Forum in Davos:
“Some forms of avoidance have become so aggressive that I think it is right to say these are ethical issues”.
I agree with him. He urged multinational members to wake up and smell the coffee, obviously taking advantage of what was in the public domain.
Not entirely but relatively unusually for me, I am on the side of the Prime Minister on this issue. It is necessary for us to spend some time engaging with the view that has permeated our businesses, at least at one level of representation although not universally, about why they think their obligation is to avoid paying fair taxes and to challenge that directly. I ask the Minister, and I am sure that he will find it easy to answer this, whether he agrees with the Prime Minister or with the chairman of the CBI that this is a moral issue. If it is a moral issue, does the Minister agree that we in the United Kingdom, because of the position that we occupy in the world and our relationship with many of these tax havens, have a moral obligation to engage with them in a way that helps to solve this problem and undermines their activity?
While I am at it, can the Minister give some indication of how the Government intend, in the process of putting pressure on these tax havens—as they are— which I commend, to ensure that we do not replicate the situation that we allowed to happen in the first place? That situation put these communities in the position of finding some way to sustain themselves in the absence of natural resources and opportunities for the economy, which forced them into the hands of clever people who showed them a way of making large amounts of money in a parasitic fashion so that they were not a burden on us. We have to accept that part of this deal must be that we accept our responsibility to ensure that people can live in these places at the standard of living that they have achieved—maybe beyond that, in some cases—which does not rely on them having to perform these functions in the world at such a disproportionate rate in order to keep body and soul together.
I commend to noble Lords the briefing I have in my hands from the co-ordinator of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Anti-Corruption, and the one that was sent to all of us by Action Aid. These are excellent documents. I cannot, in my last minute, do any of them justice, but they have a list of arguments and questions that go to nub of this issue. If others who speak after me can engage with these issues in the way that these briefings deserve, I commend the briefings to them.
I make one final point to the Minister. There is a deeply corrosive effect of the structures that have been created by tax avoiders and tax evaders which we need to interdict: they have created a set of structures of which the crooks of this world are taking advantage. We discovered recently, because of the uncovering of money-laundering through a legitimate process of international banking in cyberspace, exactly what crooks are able to do. That is exactly what is happening in this environment. If the Minister wants evidence for that, he should look at the World Bank’s recent report, which showed that there were 800 corporations involved in the 150 examples of serious money-laundering and crooked use of money, all of them taking advantage of structures that were otherwise legitimately created. We are allowing crooks and deeply tainted money to get into our legitimate exercises and economy.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on bringing forward an important issue, and on giving us an opportunity to discuss it, as it were, in the general. I suspect that there will be many discussions in this House about many specific measures in this area of enormous complexity.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, however, that when I started to make some notes for this debate I had little intention of making more than a passing reference to the history of Labour Governments in this. However, his comments have forced me to do so. This kind of amnesia, wherein what happened in the past is irrelevant, is a very uncomfortable position from which to pass. He talked about “new in scale” as if we are suddenly coming across problems which had not existed in the past, and had now forced themselves on to our attention. I remind him that even his own Labour Party was in 1997 sufficiently aware of tax evasion on the domestic scale to look at a GAAR—a general anti-avoidance rule or anti-abuse rule—which it rejected. This Government have now brought that back into the frame; I will talk about it in a minute. Also, however, the US Senate thought this was such a crucial issue that it started its major hearings in 2001. That put into the public arena so much of the information now being used by all the parties that it is impossible that it was not going across Ministers’ desks and had not been drawn to government attention.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, drew attention to the culture in which businesses, and those such as the CBI who speak as the trade bodies for businesses, work from the assumption that this issue should not be challenged. I think we all find that offensive. However, surely that grew out of what they saw as a very long period of complacency and a rejection by Government, who had the power to intervene, to make those interventions. Those years of neglect have played a very significant role in the culture that we now have to turn around. In the end, we have to get businesses, as well as government, to take responsibility.
I come from a party that, in conference after conference, debated these issues, put them on the agenda, introduced them into manifestos, and was treated as though it just did not understand the ways of the world and, as a consequence, business. I take some satisfaction in reading, in the coalition agreement in 2010:
“We will make every effort to tackle tax avoidance, including detailed development of Liberal Democrat proposals”.
It is right that people should be aware that there has been a loud and pressed voice, but that it has been ignored.
I will talk very briefly about the GAAR. I had the privilege of being on the Finance Bill’s sub-committee, which took a look at the general anti-abuse rule. It is a toe in the water—a first step at looking at a principles-based approach to sit alongside a rules-based approach. I suspect that in future years we will have to look at whether or not anti-abuse is sufficient, and whether we need to move into anti-avoidance. However, I will bring to your Lordships’ attention the first of the conclusions in the summary of the report from that sub-committee. It says:
“Given resource constraints and the need to provide certainty for business and to promote UK competitiveness, we regard the narrowly focused GAAR as a reasonable starting point. However, we think it important that the scope of the GAAR should be reviewed in the light of practical experience of its operation as part of the wider review that we recommend elsewhere in this report. Such a review should consider, in particular, how the double reasonableness test”—
the most constraining part of the GAAR—is impacting on the GAAR’s deterrent capacity.
It is also crucial that we understand that the measures we take that affect our domestic tax framework do not tackle the international, multinational tax issues. I sometimes think that when people talk about GAARs and anti-avoidance measures that can be taken domestically, they create an impression among the public that those measures can deal with the multinational and international problems. This report also reminds us of that, saying:
“We are fully persuaded that the GAAR will not apply to issues involving the taxation of multinational groups or the deferral of bonuses from one tax year to another”.
It is, therefore, reminding us that even approaching anti-abuse in this country does not deal with the wider set of problems.
My frustration, particularly with the capacity of multinational companies to use their offshore reach to avoid or minimise their tax—effectively, not to pay tax—is in part because of the impact on public spending. Other noble Lords have talked about that. It is also because of the way in which it destroys the level playing field for many of our businesses, and in particular our domestic and small businesses. I note that in my own community, Qbookshop, which is one of a chain of three, has a notice in its window reminding the public that the taxes it pays support at least one nurse in the local hospital. The reality is that Amazon, for all its reach, does not do a lot more than that with the corporate taxes that it pays.
As I look for ways to do my purchasing from companies that have a proper approach to tax—as others do—I find that it is extraordinary how few exist. There are times when you are simply forced back to Amazon to carry out a transaction. This basically shows that the advantage of being able to avoid tax payments has subsidised those players in growing and squeezing out the competition that otherwise would naturally occur. We as a country are suffering from the destruction of that kind of level, competitive playing field.
I also note that when small businesses in the UK begin to grow, they are frequently sold to a foreign owner, and sometimes the owner is essentially a Luxembourg-based shell. Once again, it is almost impossible for a company to continue to compete unless it tries to enjoy the tax advantages that others in its field can access. One can see the temptation of many an investor to buy a company and move its activities or quasi-activities simply from a tax motive. I wonder how much the issue that we have often addressed, which is why we cannot get our small companies to grow into medium-sized and large companies based in this country, has a tax motive somewhere at the bottom of it.
I, like many people, have a real frustration that the kinds of rules of which these large companies take advantage were written by Governments on the understanding that it was unfair for companies to pay tax on the same economic activity in one, two or three locations. It is an entirely fair request for a company to say that it should pay tax only once. However, to take advantage of that, to work around it and to use it in order to create an environment where tax payment is in effect zero strikes me as the most extraordinary abuse and contempt, and it is absolutely necessary that we should bring it back under control.
I am looking very much at the G8 to begin to make strides in that direction. We have to advocate the principle that tax is paid essentially where economic activity takes place. There are complexities around that, but it is the principal basis on which we should expect to proceed. We have to look very differently at online companies, which can move their profits, domicile and activities in such a significant way. I wonder whether we should look at whether online companies should pay tax on the basis of revenue rather than profits. We may have to be as radical as that.
Before I finish—I am not going to use my full time—I will say one thing quickly to the Government. I was struck by the fact that one of the important instruments that the United States uses is the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, which requires individuals, or corporations as individuals, to report the financial accounts that they hold overseas. It also requires foreign financial institutions to report to the IRS on American clients. The UK is one of the countries that are co-operating with FATCA. It was designed primarily to combat offshore tax evasion and to recoup federal tax revenues. I would like to know whether we could have a UK version of this, because transparency—the kind of exposure that comes with FATCA—can be a very important basis for trying to challenge both tax avoidance and tax evasion.
Finally, I will say that many people, like me, would like to shift their economic activities—their business, their trade—to companies that play by the rules, but it is very difficult to find out which they are. I wonder whether there is any way that the Government could assist us: a way that would enable us to understand, when we walk into a shop, deal online, or, through our corporate lives, look at setting up relationships, whether we are working with a company that, as it were, has the kitemark of paying its taxes in an appropriate way. I admit that my ingenuity on this issue is limited, but it would be very helpful, and it would allow the public to do what they have done on many other occasions, which is to use their spending power. In that way, the Government would not have to deal with the issue simply through legislation and through enforcement by HMRC, but would have the public on their side. I note that Starbucks at least decided to make a voluntary tax payment—I think that we all agree that taxes should not be voluntary—in large part because when it was exposed as a company that paid virtually no corporate tax in the United Kingdom, its customers decided that they could go to a very nice coffee shop just down the road that did actually pay tax.
Lord Haskel
My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend on this very topical Motion. Tax avoidance has really captured the public’s attention. I am very sorry to see that there are no speakers on the Conservative Benches, because all of us have to shine a light on these practices. It is only in that way that we will be able to test their credibility and acceptability. I hope that this debate will be part of shining the light on these practices.
I will speak about corporate tax avoidance. We need to shine a light on this because, in this age of austerity, not only do we need the money—as other noble Lords said—but the products, services, jobs, innovations and all the good things in our lives and in the economy that these companies bring. If we get it wrong, all of us will be the losers.
What is the key test? It seems to me that it is credibility. Businesses, especially publicly owned ones, must be credible. They go to great lengths and great expense to appear so. Yes, it is credible to locate production where skills are available. Yes, it is credible to locate services where costs are lower. But is it credible to sell, package and ship a book—not an e-book—from a UK warehouse, and for it to arrive at my house with a UK stamp on the parcel, and then to say that really the transaction took place in Luxembourg—where, incidentally, many of our roaming telephone charges are located? Is it credible that the intellectual property rights for a product should lie in the Cayman Islands, when the science, engineering, design and technology, and all the brain work were done in Europe, Asia and the USA? The Cayman Islands played no part in generating the value, and nor does it provide the patent protection that is so highly valued in these circumstances. Is the transfer pricing credible that goes on with coffee, metal ore and minerals? As the American Senate committee asked, is it credible for a company to have no domicile at all? In the FT, Robert Shrimsley put it rather well when he said that these companies were domiciled somewhere on a cloud. Equally, it is not credible that HMRC should accept these activities as lawful. Is this really what Parliament intended? Is this really the law? I do not think that it is.
The executives of these companies tell us that they pay all the taxes that are legally required. Amazingly, Ministers and HMRC seem to accept this. But, surely, what is legally required is that these companies pay corporation tax on the profits earned in this country, less any allowances that the Government think fit and less any incentives, such as the rather successful patent box for R&D. Routing profits through a low-tax jurisdiction is not a legal requirement. As my noble friend Lord Browne reminded us, it is a matter of choice—a choice made by company executives. John Kay made this very point in his column yesterday.
Some executives say they act in this way because of their fiduciary responsibility to shareholders. Yes, they have a legal fiduciary responsibility but it does not include avoiding tax, particularly avoiding tax by non-credible means which brings the company into disrepute. Again, this is a matter of choice—a choice by the directors. When directors claim that they are paying all the taxes they are legally required to pay, I hope that the Minister will respond by saying that this is just not credible. It is not credible because they pay the tax they choose to pay. I hope that such a statement will encourage HMRC to be more credible as well.
In reality, we know that most large corporations make this choice. ActionAid reported that 98 of the FTSE 100 companies use tax havens. Indeed, the Finance Bill 2012 relaxed the controlled foreign companies rules to facilitate the use of tax havens, presumably because regulation was too strong for this Government. Do we really want to go down this path? We learnt that lesson from the banks. Weak regulation produced weak banks and contempt for bankers. We do not want contempt for our major businesses. We are all losers if that happens.
My noble friend asks what are the social and economic consequences of all this. Many noble Lords have spoken of the less developed countries and aid. On 11 December last year, your Lordships debated the impact of this activity on developing countries. In moving the Motion, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby explained how the use of tax havens enabled multinational corporations to shift profits from developing countries into tax havens. We have heard about the detrimental effect on the revenues of these countries. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Browne gave us some extraordinary figures regarding Zambia. These same countries are often in receipt of development aid from us, aid which makes up for the shortfall in tax revenue. So that is a social and an economic consequence for us, the taxpayers of this country.
This gaming of the system is available only to well resourced, well advised, powerful companies, as my noble friend reminded us. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, told us that this activity helps big firms squeeze out their smaller rivals and she gave as an example the book trade. We hear plenty of fine words from the Government about open markets, fair competition and encouraging SMEs, so here is another economic consequence. What are the Government going to do about it? This is particularly important for our economy now that digital technology has opened up so many new possibilities, markets and opportunities for business and it is the ICT firms that are at the forefront of these new opportunities. How ironic that they should be at risk of losing credibility through their tax avoidance activities. That is another reason why we should not allow this to happen.
What is the solution? One answer is, of course, international co-operation and, yes, the G8 meeting next month provides an opportunity. The G8 may not have the power to impose its will, but it certainly has the authority to persuade. This is a chance not to be missed and I welcome the Government’s efforts in this regard. Meanwhile, we can do other things on our own. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, spoke of the general anti-avoidance rule—GAAR, as she put it. Will this enable HMRC to be more assertive and aggressive in challenging these arrangements, which are just not credible? I found what the noble Baroness said rather disappointing because I expected it to be much more powerful. I join other noble Lords in asking whether there is the expertise, staff and will within HMRC to fight the tax avoidance industry and bring more prosecutions. Naming and shaming is helpful, but it is not enough. For instance, will the Government deny public sector contracts to any company which is named and shamed? A solution which I find rather attractive is being investigated by the Oxford University Centre for Business Taxation. This focuses on the residence of the customer rather than on the residence of the supplier or where the click takes place for online business. This kind of sales tax would at least ensure that companies selling here would also make a contribution towards the infrastructure, services and facilities which enable that business to be carried out.
It is also partly the complexity of our tax system which enables companies to game it. There is an Office of Tax Simplification. It obviously needs a much greater sense of urgency injected into its work and probably needs to be given a lot more resources. Are the Government up for this? The current level of public anger over this matter should offer every encouragement for the Government to act. Ministers tell us that they are committed to transparency but they should act on this and require much more transparency showing beneficial ownership in the accounts filed in Companies House. The Government are absolutely right to make more transparent the activities of the UK dependencies which act as tax havens. Showing the beneficial ownership of companies and limited liability partnerships there will expose not only tax avoidance but money laundering. I wish the Prime Minister every success in his forthcoming conference with representatives of the dependencies prior to the G8 meeting and I hope that the outcome will be an automatic information exchange system. The EU has transparency rules for banks and important resources companies. This is now being extended to all large companies, both public and private, and a law requiring companies to break down tax, profits, revenues and staff numbers by country should be passed by the European Parliament within months. I hope that the Government will support this.
“The times they are a-changin’” and I hope that this debate will be instrumental in catching the spirit of these changing times—a more challenging spirit, which means that nowadays business plans have to stand up to scrutiny socially, ethically, morally and environmentally as well as commercially and financially. I think this is what the current Lord Mayor of the City of London meant when he spoke about his year in office being directed towards a City,
“reaching towards a newer, healthier capitalism”.
The new Archbishop of Canterbury expressed similar views. My noble friend spoke of a moral imperative. They are expressing the values that many of us share. Let us therefore encourage our business leaders to join in and make the appropriate choices.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lord Foulkes, who is my friend, on achieving this important debate. It is a matter of some regret that only one Back-Bench Member from the coalition parties felt that they had anything useful to say on the subject. Perhaps that tells its own story.
Between 1999 and 2011, British companies’ profits increased by 58% but revenues from corporation tax increased by just 5%. Finally, political leaders are beginning to question that gap. That is to be welcomed. Last month, an EU summit pledged to clamp down through the sharing of information on the assets and gains of nationals banking in other countries. The Prime Minister expressed his belief that there was real momentum growing on the issue of tax and that is why he intended place it high on the agenda at the G8 summit, which he will chair in two weeks’ time.
The EU summit was the first time that European leaders had grappled with the increasingly important issue of tax evasion and avoidance. Some high-profile cases in various countries recently assisted in that process. Everyone, whether they are a football fan or not, will be aware that Bayern Munich has swept everything in front of it this season, both domestically and in Europe. However, a spoke in the club’s wheel was when its president, Uli Hoeness, was recently exposed, to much shock in Germany, over serious discrepancies in his tax affairs. Meanwhile, in France, the Cabinet Minister responsible for tax collection had to resign after admitting to having a secret account in Switzerland. You could not make that up.
It is encouraging to note that the intense debate in Britain over the tax behaviour of multinationals such as Amazon, Apple, Google and Starbucks has put the issue at the top of the political agenda. It seems that the catalyst for action at an international level has been the Obama Administration, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, referred. It will be interesting to see how effective that will prove to be in terms of obtaining information on US nationals’ assets and earnings in other countries.
The savings directive makes it compulsory for EU member states automatically to share details about other EU citizens’ bank accounts. Proponents argue that this allows Governments to detect irregular payments and other signs of tax evasion. The directive does not, however, deal with corporations, and an example would be Google, which has been much publicised and criticised in the UK for outsourcing its advertising sales to Ireland.
It is to be welcomed that Ministers, too many of whom have fixated on austerity plans and deficit reduction as the only answer to the financial crisis, are now coming to accept that there are other ways to balance the books. The campaign group UK Uncut began campaigning on the issue in 2010, and its legal challenge revealed how HMRC had waived a £20 million bill to Goldman Sachs, as well as a £6 billion bill to Vodafone. Journalists, tax experts and campaigners have been exposing some of the tax chicanery perpetrated by big business for far longer. My noble friend Lord Foulkes highlighted the fact that Amazon’s company accounts reveal that its corporation tax bill amounts to less than it gets in grants. It appears that most of those grants are for the company’s new operation in Dunfermline. How can the Government clamp down on the likes of Amazon and Google when the accounting firms used by these companies actually second staff to advise the Treasury on new tax legislation? To be blunt, the more that you can afford to pay a financial adviser, the less you will pay in tax. Figures of course vary and are open to interpretation, but tax evasion is said to cost the Treasury about £14 billion a year.
Yet, while multinationals legally avoid paying millions of pounds, it seems that HMRC concentrates more of its efforts on aggressively targeting small businesses and publishing lists of builders, clothing manufacturers, tradesmen and hairdressers who owe relatively small sums, nearly all less than £50,000. Of course, anyone avoiding or evading the payment of tax should be pursued but there should be consistency in that, not a concentration on picking off the small fry, the easy targets. If all the small fry were rolled into one, they would not stand comparison with the internet giants.
Many of us will have been taken aback by the evidence given last month to the Public Accounts Committee by the head of Google in Europe, Matt Brittin, who denied that the company’s tax operations were unethical. He defended the arrangement whereby most of Google’s taxes on money earned in Britain are channelled through Ireland to Bermuda, with the company paying an effective rate of less than 1%. However, those comments have been destroyed by a former Google employee, who told the Sunday Times:
“Google has pulled the wool over the eyes of HMRC and the British population”.
The PAC chair, Margaret Hodge MP, whom I commend on doing a first-class job, confronted Mr Brittin with Mr Jones’s evidence, but Mr Brittin denied it. Mr Jones’s information, which he says he has taken to HMRC, includes thousands of e-mails in support of what he had to say and must be taken seriously by HMRC. I hope that in due course we will hear some positive response. The revenue from Google’s deals in the UK is sent to Google Ireland Ltd, which in turn pays dividends to its parent companies in Bermuda.
Interestingly, Bermuda is one of a number of overseas territories whose leaders have been invited to meet the Prime Minister in London on the eve of this month’s G8 summit. Mr Cameron apparently plans to urge them to root out the multi-billion pound evasion industry by signing up to agreements to share tax information. His letter calling for action on tax information exchange and beneficial ownership was also sent to leaders in many territories. It is to be hoped that when the Prime Minister meets them, he will have a stick as well as a carrot to hand because it is not just the developed world that stands to benefit if the situation were to be improved. As others have mentioned, the charity ActionAid has demonstrated that nearly one in every two dollars of large corporate investment in developing countries is routed through a tax haven and says that 98% of the FTSE 100 multinational groups have companies in tax havens.
However, it is not just multinationals that employ every trick in the book—and, it is not unreasonable to assume, a few companies that have not yet made the book—to deprive exchequers of tax revenues. More than 100 of Britain’s richest people have been caught hiding billions of pounds in secretive offshore havens, thereby sparking an unprecedented global tax evasion investigation. In April this year, HMRC warned those involved, who were named in offshore data first offered to the authorities by a whistleblower in 2009, that they will face criminal prosecution or significant penalties if they do not voluntarily disclose their tax irregularities. HMRC was quoted as saying that the data,
“reveals extensive use of complex offshore structures to conceal assets by wealthy individuals and companies”.
HMRC is also investigating more than 200 UK accountants, lawyers and other professional advisers named in the data as advising the wealthy on setting up the elaborate offshore tax arrangements. These revelations may be shocking but are surely not surprising. They demonstrate the extraordinary lengths to which some of the wealthiest Britons are prepared to go to avoid making their fair contribution to the resources required to run our country and provide public services for its people.
If only there were more rich Brits with a social conscience such as John Caudwell who built the Phones4u empire. Mr Caudwell has personally paid more than £250 million in tax since 2008; that is 66 times more than Google paid in the same period. Mr Caudwell has called for tax avoiders to be “named and shamed” and for consumers to boycott what he called “serial offenders”. He went further and asserted that unless the Government got to grips with the problem of rich individuals and powerful corporations dodging the taxman, Britain was facing a period of social unrest. It is not sustainable, Caudwell argues, to have mega-millionaires and billionaires increasing their wealth, often by avoiding tax, while other people struggle to get by in the face of rising inflation and the severe reduction in public services over recent years.
One of the recurring issues is of course the role played by HMRC in pursuing those who refuse to make their contribution to tax revenues. We are told that there is to be new funding for HMRC, with the Government handing it almost £1 billion more to secure an additional £7 billion of revenue a year, thereby taking HMRC’s total compliance revenues to £20 billion in 2014-15. The Revenue in this spending review period wants further to expand anti-avoidance and evasion activity focused on offshore evasion, and this investment, it is claimed, will secure a further £2 billion in that period. Yet, as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, mentioned, there are hundreds fewer HMRC staff now than there were in 2011 due to total cuts of around £2 billion. How are these two positions to be reconciled? Surely HMRC must have more staff—and more highly paid staff to prevent them being poached by the big accountancy firms—to ensure that HMRC has the tools to make a better fist of reducing tax avoidance and evasion.
The large accountancy firms are in a powerful position in the tax world and have an unhealthily cosy relationship with government, according to Margaret Hodge. They second staff to the Treasury to advise on formulating tax legislation. When those staff return to their firms, they have the very inside knowledge and insight to be able to identify loopholes in the new legislation and advise their clients on how to take advantage of them. As Ms Hodge said:
“The poacher, turned gamekeeper for a time, then returns to poaching. This is a ridiculous conflict of interest which should be banned in a code of conduct for tax advisers”.
I certainly second that. The idea could perhaps be turned on its head, with HMRC staff seconded to accountancy firms, sitting in on their meetings at which intricate plans to subvert legislation are discussed. Now I suggest that that would concentrate a few minds in a slightly different way.
The moral case on tax avoidance is overwhelming. That is why Margaret Hodge was right to be so forthright in her criticism of those individuals and corporations that route their cash through low-tax regimes at a massive cost to the UK Exchequer. Although it was encouraging that the recent Finance Bill contained the introduction of the general anti-abuse rule—again, referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer—it remains to be seen what deterrent the GAAR will have. I certainly agree with her comment that this is just a dipping of toes in water and that much more needs to be done. The rule is to be reviewed after two years, and I certainly hope that the information gained in that period will be used to ensure that it is extended.
As has been stated, changes to the international tax system will be high on the agenda at the G8 summit and there has probably never been a better time to crack down on tax havens, aggressive tax planning and transfer-pricing schemes. At least in part, this is because Governments are badly in need of tax revenue in a time of weak growth. Tax could become to the 2010s what debt relief was to the 1990s—the focus of a global campaign for reform, and I very much hope that it is.
Part of the way in which this can be undertaken is surely by the Government introducing legislation containing clear and unambiguous anti-avoidance rules. One way would be to charge corporation tax on a definable estimate of the profits generated by all UK sales to other UK companies or individuals, whether in shops or online. Where the head office is based or where the profits are declared would then be of no importance, so the tax could not be evaded by channelling the business, or by claiming to have done so, to a country with a lower tax rate.
In the end, though, the success of any campaign will depend on how the public behave. If the Government cannot, or will not, act, ordinary people should vote with their wallets by boycotting the worst offenders. That might mean higher prices and less choice, but why should we support businesses that exploit loopholes in the tax system to siphon off tax money from Britain that is so desperately needed to provide the services that maintain the fabric of society? On a personal level, in the past year I have stopped using Google as my search engine, I drink my coffee anywhere but at Starbucks and I no longer order goods through Amazon. I am certainly not alone in that but it will take a huge wave before these and other companies notice and give their conscience a makeover.
In the mean time, we have the right to look to political leaders and urge them to fasten on the shin-pads to demonstrate to the corporate giants that, when it comes to paying tax, they are finally determined to take the issue as seriously as business has for many years. We are hearing some encouraging words but those words must be translated into action—action on an international scale—if it is to be of any sustainable value.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I appreciate the magnanimity of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, in not grudging me four minutes out of the 40 minutes in today’s gap before he rises for the Official Opposition.
In his opening, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, regretted my party’s lack of participation, but I have been in the Chamber throughout, just as I was for all but 40 minutes of the 12 hours we devoted to the same-sex marriage Bill this week, which diminished temporarily my appetite for argument. I did think of speaking because of having participated in the debate on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, following the Question for Short Debate last December on international tax implications, in which the noble Lord, Lord Browne, also took part. Unlike the noble Lord, I do not think that I received a briefing from ActionAid this time, so I make a plea, which no doubt will be read outside, to the charities and lobbyists on this subject that they keep a full list of the usual suspects in this area and send us a briefing on future occasions, even if we have not put our names down to speak, as we might thus be encouraged to do so.
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, said that the debate concerned the present Administration and not the 13 years before. I intervene to express a hope that the Minister will be prepared to say a word or two about the Charity Commission and its willingness to challenge the charitable credentials of a handful of black sheep where the charities have spent far less on charitable purposes than they have received in tax compensation, as has recently been reported in the press. This Government have taken some actions in this area already, whereas I think that the previous Government were less involved. It would also help if the Minister would indicate whether the Charity Commission needs any technical help with which the Treasury or Inland Revenue would be able to furnish it.
On a final, more light-hearted word, when my late noble kinsman was the Financial Secretary to the Treasury between 1954 and 1957 and was thus responsible to the other place for the Inland Revenue, he alleged that he once received a large anonymous banker’s draft from an equally anonymous taxpayer accompanied by a brief note, which said:
“I have not been sleeping well. I hope the enclosed tax contribution will cause me to sleep better. If it fails to do so, I shall send you some more”.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am quite sure that the House does not begrudge the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, his late intervention in the debate, if only because he is the only Conservative speaker. However, we all very much appreciated the particular point that he made about charities and I hope that the Minister will respond to it.
It is normal at this stage to congratulate the noble Lord who has secured the debate on doing so and on his introductory speech. On this occasion, I do so with exceptional enthusiasm. We heard an outstanding speech from my noble friend Lord Foulkes. As my noble friend Lord Browne indicated as the second speaker, everything that needed to be said had at least been referred to by my noble friend Lord Foulkes in his all-encompassing speech, in which he made the points that were emphasised in subsequent speeches. We have of course all found other emphases to make and develop out of the original contribution.
I want to return to the opening point. My noble friend Lord Foulkes indicated that he sought this debate because society is suffering at present from grossly irresponsible conduct by people with enormous power. That was reflected, first, in the financial sector and the collapse of revenues for the Government—something that all significant nations suffered. That is why every nation has been looking at how to boost returns to their finance departments or treasuries. One thing that has stood out in every review has been that the capacity to raise taxation, certainly against declining production and the dip in production that all countries have suffered—and this country significantly so—has meant that government revenues have been under stress. Therefore, it is not surprising that the emphasis has shifted somewhat to who is making a contribution to those revenues and to whether everything is being done to see that fairness obtains. It is clear that a great deal has been revealed about the immoral conduct of a large number of our major companies, particularly multinationals. It is immoral not to make a contribution to a society that provides all the necessary infrastructure for successful operations and yet seek to deny to that society the resources that sustain these essential services.
As my noble friend Lord Foulkes emphasised, it is ordinary people who have been paying the price of these collapses, not those who have awarded themselves huge bonuses in both the financial sector and at the top of industry. This has created such a disparity in income as to produce an unfair society in very dramatic forms over these past few years. It is essential, therefore, that we seek to recreate a fair society, and that means the Government need to act. If ordinary people are paying the price in lower wages, in lost jobs, in reduced public support for people on low income and in young people having great difficulty in obtaining a start in life with a job, it is essential that we ensure fairness in society, not only in the burdens but in the contributions. There has been a significant failure in that regard.
My noble friend Lord Browne identified one dimension of the unfairness. It is not only advanced countries that are suffering because of the gross levels of tax evasion by major companies; it has a crippling impact on underdeveloped countries such as Zambia when companies evade taxes which are vastly higher than any aid we offer to such countries.
The multinational companies have come to the fore. There has been not only a series of revelations at a parliamentary level in this country but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer—the only speaker until the last intervention from the coalition Benches—emphasised, the Americans have taken a clear lead in this field. Not only is there the examination that has been going on in Congress for more than a decade, to which the noble Baroness referred, but, as is now appreciated, President Obama has been effective in taking an early lead in striking bilateral arrangements with countries to ensure the essential information flows which alone give the opportunity for people to respond effectively to the way in which big companies operate.
The Americans were greatly concerned about Apple when they discovered the extraordinary amount of taxation that was avoided by the location of its main body in Ireland. With all the advantages that it derived there, it could avoid significant taxation on its activities which raised revenue in the United States, Europe and the wider world.
The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, also referred to Starbucks, as did a number of my noble friends. Companies want to sustain their reputation—they make their sales on the basis of how they are thought to provide services by the public—and we know the assiduous amount of effort and colossal resources that companies put in to burnishing their reputations. That is why Starbucks felt obliged to make a belated contribution. However, this is tokenism: it is not the response of a major company to the obligations it has. As my noble friend Lord Browne emphasised, given the obligations that it has, it will not do for it to make a token contribution when it has been exposed and therefore fears that there has been damage to its reputation.
We need a structure of identification and enforcement with regard to tax to ensure that these matters are dealt with fairly. My noble friend Lord Watson referred to the progress that is being made in Europe on this front and he mentioned the German example. So he should, because it was the German identification of what was going on in the Liechtenstein bank accounts of German citizens that alerted policymakers to the enormous potential loss to government revenues because of these strategies.
We have certainly got an obligation here; the Germans are concerned about Liechtenstein and the Americans are concerned about Ireland and the advantages it offers multinationals, and the United Kingdom, as we all know, has a string of Crown dependencies and tax havens. It is essential that we make progress there. Some progress is being made and we congratulate the Government on seeking more openness about their operation.
I hope this point will be accepted by the Minister. This debate is taking place a week and a half before the G8 summit. The Prime Minister will be president of the G8 when the meeting takes place. Can we be assured that an emphatic lead will be taken on these issues because it is quite clear that a great deal needs to be done? Will he seek to ensure that the G8 commits itself to securing country-by-country reporting in order to get essential information into the public arena and to make obligations on companies effective?
We need to see whether the Prime Minister will be able to extend the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes on an international scale. The Government are making some progress in the domestic scene but we want to see more breadth to this because disclosure of information is key to the issues. We certainly need to make sure that the Prime Minister is able to emphasise that Britain is taking key action with regard to the tax havens over which we have some jurisdiction. We expect, therefore, that considerable progress on these matters will be made at the G8. The Prime Minister will surely recognise that this is a unique opportunity, not least because key powers have clearly identified and expressed anxiety about these issues in recent months.
We also need action at home. We need to reform our corporate tax system, which clearly does not cope adequately with the issue at the present time. As several of my noble friends have emphasised, including my noble friend Lord Haskel, we need to ensure that Her Majesty’s Revenue has the resources to pursue people effectively. It is extraordinary that there have been cut backs even in the revenue collection department of HMRC in the years since the coalition came to power when it has been identified on all sides how cost-effective the allocation of resources are to that department in securing the taxation to which the country is entitled.
This has been an extremely illuminating debate and one to which I know the Minister will have some constructive response to make. I certainly hope he has, because I want to emphasise one point from the Opposition Benches—I am aware that this debate has been rather laden with speakers from the Opposition, with scant contributions by the Conservative Party. The noble Lord will recognise that the nation has a common interest in effective action at this time, and the Prime Minister has been vouchsafed a particularly unique opportunity, which we hope he will seize.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for initiating this debate. It is a very important subject and this is a timely point at which to be discussing it. I reassure noble Lords that despite the tenor of the debate, the vast majority of UK taxpayers do not avoid or evade tax. They pay the tax that is due and they pay it on time. However, some do not, and that is what we have been discussing today. The economic and social consequences of tax avoidance and evasion are not insignificant. A number of noble Lords referred to the tax gap, which is estimated to be around £32 billion, in total of which the amount due to avoidance and evasion was estimated in 2010-11 at £19 billion. This tax gap exists everywhere, and it is rather lower in the UK than it is in most other countries. Furthermore, it has been falling over a period both before and since this Government came to office, but it is still significant and too big.
As a number of noble Lords have said, the money that we are not collecting in taxes is money that we could be spending on services, something that I am sure we all wish we were able to do. The social consequences of failure to collect the right amount of tax are in many ways as significant as the economic ones. Many individuals and companies up and down the country are honest and pay the tax they owe on time, and it is not right that they should shoulder the burden for those who dodge or completely evade their responsibilities. It generates a huge sense of unfairness and anger, and erodes confidence in the tax system. At a time when the Government are facing tough spending decisions, it is even more important that the right amount is collected.
I agree that this issue has a moral dimension. Failure to pay tax that is reasonably due weakens the bonds that hold society together. I also accept that while there is a moral element to this, there are some companies whose moral compass is, by common consent, lacking. This has been attacked in a number of ways. The Companies Act 2006 lays on directors a range of duties that go beyond fiduciary ones. It is a statutory obligation for directors to have regard to the impact of their company on society as a whole. In my view, sometimes they put less emphasis on that than they do on some of their other duties. However, they already have this requirement.
The question is how we translate our moral outrage into effective action. Before coming on to what the Government are doing, I will take up a comment made by my noble friend Lady Kramer about a potential kite mark, and the remarks made by a number of noble Lords about the effect of consumers. There are some things that consumers can do more effectively and quickly than government, and it seems that some of the actions that have been taken against some well-known companies have had more of an impact in a matter of days or weeks than anything that government, with the best will in the world, could do in the same length of time. I do not have a suggested kite certification body, and I do not think that such a body should come from government, but it is a good idea that should be pursued.
We believe that this Government have a strong track record on tackling both tax avoidance and evasion. That is demonstrated, for example, in the 33 changes to tax law that have been made since 2010 to close down numerous tax avoidance loopholes, and illustrated by the 1,560 individuals who have been prosecuted for tax crimes by HMRC since then. We have shown a similar willingness to confront those who try to hide their money offshore. Some 50,000 taxpayers have already come forward in response to all the offshore disclosure facilities, of which Liechtenstein disclosure facility was the first. To date, these have generated over £1 billion of tax in penalties and interest, and in the years to come there are many billions more to come from that relatively narrow source. That activity reflects a wider transformation in the way HMRC now tackles avoidance and evasion.
Since 2010, some 1,000 additional staff have been deployed to tackle avoidance, evasion and criminal attack, and to cut back on tax debt. I shall deal head-on with the issue of how cuts to the overall HMRC budget have reduced the focus and effort being put into this area. Nothing could be further from the truth. One of the main reasons it has been possible to cut both the budget and the staff at HMRC while increasing effort and resource in this area is that the way people pay their taxes has changed. A huge number of companies and individuals used to pay their taxes using paper tax forms, but now virtually no one does. That has enabled HMRC greatly to reduce the number of people whose job was essentially to manage bits of paper. I do not know if there is a figure for it, but the amount of paper that goes through HMRC is a very small fraction of what it used to be. It means that we have already been able to allocate around an extra £1 billion to this area. So in answer to the first of the questions the noble Lord put to me, I can say that I am pretty confident, indeed very confident, that HMRC has the resources to tackle this issue more effectively than it did in the past, and we have said that we shall look at whether there is scope for putting more resource into it in the future. However, there is something to consider with regard to further resource: you cannot do it too quickly because we are talking about highly trained staff if they are going to be effective. We have put in a lot more and we are keeping the position under review.
In connection with HMRC, the noble Lord asked about it cutting deals with big business. He was concerned about that. The settlements he referred to were reviewed independently by a judge and found to be satisfactory. However, HMRC has put in place robust new assurance and governance rules for settling large cases, so I think that some lessons might have been learnt.
In the Budget, we vowed to do more to tackle avoidance and evasion. We announced the signing of major new automatic exchange agreements and disclosure facilities with the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey, and I shall come back to that later. We also announced the introduction of the first general anti-abuse rule, which will shortly be legislated for through the Finance Bill. This will target effectively the most abusive forms of avoidance and provide a strong deterrent against using such schemes in the first place. Is it strong enough? We shall see when we review it. Is it something against which the last Government set their face? Yes, it is. I would not want to get into too much retrospection, so let us leave it at this: having made the case in your Lordships’ House for an anti-abuse and an anti-avoidance rule for many years, I am very pleased that at long last it is now happening.
For those who choose to contrive complex mechanisms to disguise their employment status and thus avoid employment taxes, we have published a consultation to review two areas of the partnership tax rules, while just last week we published a consultation on the use of offshore employment intermediaries. Our focus on tackling avoidance and evasion will continue, but as a result of the investment that we have already made, HMRC is now set to raise total additional compliance revenues of £22 billion per year by 2014-15.
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked me three questions, the second of which had to do with beneficial ownership. The Financial Action Task Force on Money Laundering sets standards on anti-money laundering and these issues. The FATF standards are at a high level and are implemented at EU level. EU action is driven by the money laundering directives, a new one of which will be negotiated this year. The standards on beneficial ownership place the requirement on countries to ensure that there is adequate, accurate and timely information on the beneficial ownership of companies, which can be obtained or accessed by competent authorities. Member states are now implementing those standards. The Treasury is working with BIS, and BIS is currently drafting a discussion paper on corporate transparency, which includes beneficial ownership. This will be published over the summer. The measures agreed to through the G8 in this area will, as I say, be implemented in the UK through the EU money laundering directive, as well as by UK money laundering regulations and changes to the Companies Act.
Those concerned with these matters have been promoting the multilateral information exchange for a long time. There has been the most extraordinary acceleration of activity in this area in recent months. The key starting point—the stone, if you like, that started the avalanche—was, as noble Lords have pointed out, the US Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, which requires non-US financial institutions to report extensive information on US customers with accounts overseas to the US authorities. The US is saying, “We want to know from you what our companies and citizens have in your back accounts”. This has been in operation for only a relatively short time.
As an example of how that standard has really become an international norm, I will go through the following year. In June last year, the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain agreed a model information exchange agreement with the US to implement FATCA. In September, the UK and the US signed an agreement on that model. In December, the UK announced that we saw it as a new standard and would look to build on it ourselves and internationally. In January, the Prime Minister announced that tax transparency, including this, would be a priority for the G8. I confirm that it is. In February, the Isle of Man agreed to a FATCA-type regime with the UK. In March, Jersey and Guernsey agreed to the same thing. In April, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK agreed to develop and pilot multinational tax information exchange based on the FATCA model and we made it clear that that was our priority for the May council. Last month, the overseas territories and Crown dependencies made a commitment to join the pilot: that is, to join the FATCA approach.
That is hugely significant. It means that, for the first time, places that have become a byword for tax avoidance will be required to make information available to other tax authorities. Also in May, another 12 European member states agreed to join the same process, while the European Council supported the creation of what it calls a new global standard for automatic exchange of information: that is, a FATCA-type approach. All this has happened in a year. It is an extraordinary acceleration of events but is all to the good. It is our intention that it should be pursued even more rigorously in the future.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, asked about developing countries and the problems that they face in not being able to collect the tax revenues that they are due. There are two elements to how you deal with that. One is that we do our bit to make clear what is happening in those countries in relation to multinational companies. That is why we support the extractive industry transparency initiative and why the EU accounting directive will require country-by-country reporting for the extractive industries, so that at least you can see what is happening in those places.
We have also realised, in recent years, that we can play a major part by helping those countries themselves improve the efficiency of their tax collection. HMRC has been putting money into support for the tax administrations in those countries. In Ethiopia, where we have been doing it for a number of years, tax revenues have risen by as much as 40% in a year. In Zambia, to which the noble Lord referred, although we are committed to spending £235 million between 2011 and 2015 on reducing poverty, we are also committed to building their tax collection capacity, and HMRC has been supporting the Zambia Revenue Authority to build its own tax collection. Obviously, the quicker they can raise their own proportion of tax, the less reliant they will be on aid. In the Budget, we announced a programme of capacity building, which DfID and HMRC were going to promote in many of those countries. I think that is a very important move.
The noble Lord also referred to the future of tax havens and what they are going to do if they do not have a financial services sector. That is an extremely pressing issue but it must not be the principal issue. We cannot delay action in this area because some tax accountants in the Cayman Islands might find themselves slightly shorter of work.
My noble friend Lady Kramer and the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, in particular, talked about the problem of multinationals not paying tax and asked what we were going to do about it. There is a major push via the OECD, in which we have taken a lead, to change the rules. A lot of the accounting rules have been in place for nearly a century, so it is not surprising that they do not deal very well with the current situation. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that the Prime Minister will take a lead and will push this very hard at the G8 later this month. Next month, the OECD will present proposals to the G20 on how exactly it proposes to revise the rules. There is a huge amount of work going on in this area—I gather there are 15 work streams—so we should not think that this is being taken at all lightly.
The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, asked whether the Government would deny contracts to tax avoiders. In the Budget, the Government announced that businesses must certify their tax compliance if they want to bid for government contracts. That is new, and we hope and think that it will be effective.
The noble Lord, Lord Watson, questioned whether employees of accountancy firms should be able to spend time on secondment with HMRC. We realise that there can be perceived conflicts of interest. At the moment, secondees have to sign an agreement with the host department and their permanent employer to ensure that there is no conflict of interest when they return. On balance, we value such secondments and think that HMRC gains an advantage by taking employees from the big accountancy companies to help with its work and to help bridge what used to be a complete silo between the accountancy firms and the department. It is a bit of a caricature to think that all accountants are necessarily evil-minded and are going to use the information they get to their clients’ advantage. My experience of accountants is that they are part of a very fine profession and are often unjustly criticised.
The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, asked a specific question on the charity tax. I assure him that HMRC is working closely with the Charity Commission to make sure that charities comply. It conducted 10 joint inquiries with the Charity Commission in 2012-13. There are about 20 exchanges of information every month about charities where it appears that there might be a problem. To go back to an earlier point, HMRC has doubled the staff working on charity compliance since 2012.
I hope I have gone some way to answering the points that have been made in the debate this afternoon and to reassuring noble Lords that tax compliance is an issue that the Government take extremely seriously and will continue to prioritise, both domestically and internationally.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I have found this a really encouraging debate, with such well informed contributions. It was also notable for one of the most helpful and sympathetic responses by a Minister that I have heard for a very long time. I really am most grateful to him, and I will return to that in a moment.
I also thank all those who have contributed. My dear friend, the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, echoed the description of the tax avoidance “industry”, which it has become, and underlined that very effectively. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that I accept her scolding, gentle as it was. I was only saying, “Hands up” to our lack of action. But now it is the present and the future that we have to concentrate on. I will return to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, in a moment because she made a contribution, which was echoed, that was perhaps the most important new thing to come out of this debate.
Perhaps I might also say how pleased I am to see the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, back, not just in good health but, as we heard, in his robust, powerful and informed debating style. We really are very pleased to see him and we know that on this issue he is one of our noted experts. He talked about Luxembourg, and others talked about Liechtenstein and the Cayman Islands. It is interesting that over the past few years Ireland has been developing itself and organising its affairs to become a tax haven. That is something that has crept up on us. Perhaps we ought to be discussing this with the Irish, since they are so close to us.
When the noble Lord, Lord Watson, intervened, I realised that, along with my noble friend Lord Browne and myself, we have got three football fanatics from Scotland. He pointed out the fankle, if I may use the Scots word, that the chairman of Bayern Munich had got himself in. Sometimes the owners of football clubs, as I have found recently—not in my own personal case but in the case of my club—get themselves into these kinds of difficulties. He also picked up the suggestion made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, which I will come back to.
Perhaps the most welcome of all interventions was from the noble Lord, Lord Brooke. His interventions are always welcome and sometimes the funniest things I ever hear in this Chamber, which is a relief sometimes through the long tedium of some of the debates that we have. I hope that his anonymous rich insomniac is now sleeping well, having paid the money that was due. If there are any more rich insomniacs who think they have not paid enough tax, I am sure that the Revenue would welcome their contributions.
I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for his very kind remarks, and his very perceptive points. He made the important point that if these taxes are paid properly, ordinary people become better off and the companies benefit because they have more consumers, purchasers and people involved. He summarised the points I was making about identification and enforcement very well, and echoed the call for the lead to be taken at the G8 meeting, which I am glad to say is going to be held in Northern Ireland.
The noble Lord, Lord Newby, answered my questions. It is good to come and have questions that are posed specifically being given an answer. I hope that other Ministers will learn from the excellent example of the noble Lord, Lord Newby. To echo the debate by saying that the moral compass of some companies is clearly lacking is a strong point for a Minister to make.
The one new point that I want to finish on, for which I give credit to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, was this idea of consumer power, of having some kind of boycott so that we can show our dissatisfaction with and distaste for the great tax avoiders. The noble Lord, Lord Watson, mentioned this as well and went through some of them: Google, which he is no longer using; he will go anywhere but Starbucks for coffee; and Amazon. There are competitors. I am glad to see that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby is nodding. That gives me great comfort. I remember the great apartheid debates we had and how the boycotts really had an effect in South Africa. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, made a plea to NGOs to keep us briefed. Perhaps a collective of NGOs could get together and produce a list of companies that they feel are the most outrageous and that we ought to avoid. That was very encouraging. We will call it the “Kramer coefficient” or the “Kramer list” and give credit to the noble Baroness.
It has been a very good debate. Once again, I thank everyone who contributed, particularly the Minister for his helpful responses.
Housing
Lord Dubs
My Lords, I am delighted to have this opportunity to open this debate on what is in effect the whole range of housing policy. Unmet need means people without homes, as I shall develop. Far too many of our people are badly housed, homeless or struggling to pay their high rents and avoid becoming homeless.
We have a real housing crisis in this country. There are currently more than 1.8 million households on waiting lists in England. There are currently more than half a million households living in overcrowded conditions. In 2012-13, 108,000 homes were completed in England. The evidence from Shelter, which has been very helpful in providing information for this debate, is that we have an annual need of 240,000 new homes to meet current and future demand. We are building at less than half that rate so the problem is going to get worse.
For far too many people in our country, their housing situation leads to misery and damage to health; it holds back the education of children, damages family cohesion and generally causes a great deal of human unhappiness. Anybody who has been a Member of Parliament or local councillor and has had a constituency surgery will know about the number of people who come along seeking help on one aspect or another of their housing difficulties.
I will turn briefly to private rented housing, which has had to increase. One-third of private renters are now families with children. What is alarming is that for so many of them, short-term tenancies are the norm and they keep having to move. Government research shows that renting families are nine times as likely to have moved in the past year as families who own their own homes. We know what sort of dislocation there can be for families with children if they have to move, and how it affects their schooling and their general well-being. Rents in the private sector are rising and eating savagely into household finances. Perhaps even more damaging, one-third of privately rented homes fail to meet the Government’s own decent homes standard.
Surveys of public opinion show that the public would welcome more borrowing if it led to better housing and more housing being built. The surveys I have seen say that supporters of all parties believe that this would be a good idea. Of course, more building has other economic benefits, which I shall come on to. At the moment we have too few housing starts and virtually no social housing. There has to be a better way of managing our affairs.
I was given a number of examples. Let me just cite one. Oxford City Council is a Labour council and an example of good practice. It has a planning application for the development of about 900 homes at Barton West, which is in the Oxford City Council area. That will produce much-needed housing in an area where there are housing shortages. However, Oxford City Council has also identified land outside the local authority area in adjacent local authorities, which are mainly Conservative-controlled. It is finding it very hard to get the go-ahead to develop the land because the Conservative authorities do not want more housing there. Perhaps the Minister will have more information on that, but that is a rather sad state of affairs.
Although some people say that there are shortages of land, there are also allegations that developers in this country have large land banks which they are holding off until they can make more money than they can at the moment. Does the Minister know the extent of the land banks? I am not talking about developing the green belt, I am talking about land banks that the developers have, on which they could legitimately build if they decided to go ahead.
I want briefly to mention the difficulties of under-occupation. Yes, of course, there are people who are under-occupying their homes. For owner-occupiers, it is easy. They sell and move to a smaller property, make money in the process and someone else gets a larger property. That is easy for owner-occupiers, but we have an entirely different system for those who are in public housing. Now that they have the bedroom tax, families will have to move, but they have nowhere to move to because there are not enough smaller units available for them to move to—at least, not without a move, let us say, out of London into the suburbs or even further. That is hardly a humane way of dealing with under-occupation. There has to be a method to deal with that.
I remind the House of the dislocation to families and children if they have to move to different areas and different schools and have to make different friends. It can be very upsetting and can damage schooling and the happiness of the family. It is not surprising that there has been a rise in homelessness. Statutory homelessness is increasing, and local authorities are under pressure to find temporary accommodation to stop families having to sleep on the streets. Of course, that is a temporary measure, and councils have had to put homeless families in hotels and bed and breakfast accommodation. We know that a number of them are breaking the law because they are leaving families there for longer than the six-week legal limit. A large proportion of local authorities are now in that position.
Of course, the benefits cap is aggravating that. Without getting into a long debate about social welfare at the moment, the benefits cap should surely take account of differences in housing costs from one region to another. We know the enormous differences between London and the south-east and other parts of the country. Shelter has demonstrated that local authorities which cannot source emergency housing in their areas are increasingly having to send homeless families further away.
I turn briefly to the situation of young people looking for housing. It is bleak for them. There is a massive housing shortage in properties that would be suitable for young people. They are increasingly priced out of buying or renting a home of their own. That is a struggle for people from all walks of life and particularly difficult in London and the south-east. From personal experience, I talk about mortgages and easy or difficult lending. Many years ago, when I got a mortgage before the first house that I bought, my wife and I had to demonstrate that I was asking to borrow only two and a half times my salary, I could borrow up to only 70% of the equity of the house and I had to produce an employers’ reference that I was good for my salary and was not likely to be fired quickly.
What has happened in more recent years? Mortgages went up to 120% of equity and 10 times the salary. It is no wonder that we had the terrible crash and the housing bubble. The danger is that we are moving back again. If borrowing money to buy houses is too easy and there is no increase in housing stock, it does not take an idiot to realise that prices will go up. That is what has happened in Britain over many years. Unless there is an increase in supply, making borrowing easier does not help. It may help the lenders of the money, but it does not help the people who want to be housed. That is why I am worried that the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s Help to Buy scheme—it has gone through a number of different names—will be no help at all if there is no significant increase in supply, but it will help some people who want to be second-home buyers. That is a sign of inequity.
In a more general sense, I say this about owner-occupation. Owner-occupiers in our country have managed to make enormous capital gains through holding a property. I have benefited in that way. It is quite unfair that the process of owner-occupation in our housing market has led to an enormous increase in inequality in this country. Okay, I cannot sell my house and move into a tent, but, at some point, somebody—a family or whoever—will benefit from that. It seems quite unfair that that has happened. It has happened partly because financial services have made it so easy to borrow, and the danger is that we are going back there. Of course I want people to be able to borrow money for their homes, so there has to be a balance, but the danger is that if the money is too easy to come by, there must be more houses, otherwise prices will rise.
Of course, we all know that on top of that there are significant north-south differences in this country. We have much greater housing stress in London and the south-east than elsewhere. The trouble is that in the parts of the country where houses are incredibly inexpensive, there are no jobs. There is no economic base, so there is no demand to live there because people cannot earn money. I know that because I am lucky enough to have a home in Cumbria, but looking at the property prices on the Cumbria coast in places such as Workington and Maryport, I can get you a three-bedroom house for less than £100,000—in fact, for quite a lot less than that, but there are no jobs.
The north-south differences are important because they affect our perception of housing and what should be done to help. There is another problem, particularly in London and the south-east. If it will be increasingly difficult for relatively poor or not very well paid people to live—I am talking about the C2s and Ds; about people who keep many of our public services going; about local authority workers, cleaners, nurses, other NHS staff and teachers—or they cannot find anywhere to live, how are those services to be continued? It will be very damaging. It is all very well saying that you can get these people at the moment, but it is getting harder and harder for them to find somewhere to live. They do not earn enough to buy into the housing market, and they cannot get accommodation. I find that a very serious situation indeed.
The future for London and the south-east will be even bleaker if we do not do something to make more housing available so that we have a proper social mix, and so that various jobs can be filled. I know that we have people from other EU countries who come here, but some of their housing conditions are intolerable and they do it only temporarily while they try to keep their families going in their home country. That does not mean that the housing is there; it means that they are willing to accept standards in which one would hope that they did not have to live.
We have to build more homes. I do not believe that doing nothing is an option. We have to change our policies dramatically. The lack of housing construction is holding the whole economy back. We know that an active construction programme has knock-on benefits throughout the economy in jobs, further investment and so on. However, at the same time, we are seeing a generation who are finding a decent home of their own out of reach. As I said earlier, we are building about half of what we need.
Lending more and more is not the answer unless there is an increase in supply. Whereas I welcome, up to a point, making the planning system more efficient—there are arguments against it as well—that will not open the doors to a great deal of building. We need to look forward. Fundamentally, I believe that we need to get local authorities building again—and if not local authorities, then local authorities in tandem with housing associations. We need to ensure that we can develop a proper public housebuilding programme. That would give people an opportunity and boost the economy. I am afraid that I missed some of the discussion in Questions today about garden cities—I apologise, but I was working on this speech and I did not switch my screen on in time to hear what the Minister said about it—but that certainly has to be an option when looking at ways in which we can deal with the desperate housing situation.
To cite a well-known Conservative to support my argument, in the 1950s Harold Macmillan said that he would build 300,000 homes a year. He said he would ensure that there were that many built in the country, and he did it. If he could do it, that is a lesson to us all. Mind you, he is a different sort of Conservative from the ones that they have nowadays but he knew that housebuilding was important. It was important then and it is important now in terms of the economy, jobs and human happiness.
I believe that we need real political will on housing. Frankly, if the coalition will not provide that political will, the next Labour Government will. I very much hope that housebuilding and increasing housing will be a key feature of Labour’s manifesto, with which we shall win the next general election.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port
My Lords, I am delighted to be part of this debate. There was a very impassioned debate earlier this week in this House. When 538 people voted on Tuesday, I was not able to because I had to attend a rather important and long-standing event in the north of England. However, the passion that I heard on Monday and the sense of urgency expressed again and again from all the Benches around this House is something that I would wish to conjure up for the issue before us. I wish that we could sense the passion that is invested in this question of housing and feel the urgency for meeting the needs that are undoubtedly there.
I am aware that in speaking in such a debate, I am surrounded by people who are experts in their field, who have been or are in government and who have run big organisations and the rest of it. I come to most of the debates in which I speak in this House simply as a hands-on operator—a street-level worker. I work in communities with people; in their surgeries, Members of Parliament frequently refer some of the cases to which the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, has just mentioned to people like me. I must thank the noble Lord for bringing this matter to our attention today on two grounds. The first is that he gave me a respectable excuse for leaving the conference for which I was in the north of England, since I prioritised being here, and the second is the importance of the issue before us.
Over the years, I have been involved in meeting housing need in a variety of ways. I have served as director of two or three housing associations. For a while, I was responsible for a day centre in west London at the time when, as some Members of the House may remember, local authority housing was being exchanged and dealt with for political purposes in the City of Westminster. An awfully long shadow fell from that. I was also part of the London homelessness network of organisations meeting housing needs, largely but not entirely for the street homeless. One-to-one referrals have also been part of what I have done.
The economy, they say, is starting to build up again. What do I see in the part of London where I live? There is lots and lots of building going on. From the roof of my house, I think I have counted eight large cranes, busily building for the future. Someone is investing in the future, which they think is rather rosier than the present. What kind of building am I talking about? First, obviously, there are premises to house the burgeoning businesses coming to what they call Silicon Roundabout. It is happening all around us with the start-up companies and their technology, and it is good to see that business in this sector will bring new life to the community I live in. Then there is student accommodation. There are large amounts of it with, we have to say, its limited usefulness. Nevertheless, I am glad for the students. Then there are hotels of various kinds. The final category is that of luxury flats.
I am the chair of an education foundation. We sold a piece of land at Old Street roundabout and could not believe the figure. We thought that if we got £20 million, we would really be doing well; we got £41 million. There have sprung up these great big sails—that is what they look like—on the roundabout, with these luxury flats in them boasting at street level that their prices started at £750,000. A building that once belonged to the Methodist church just the other side of the roundabout, and which we sold in 1989, is selling its luxury flats at roughly the same price. I see all that building and none of it would I really object to as long as there were certain other things happening in the world of construction. What I do not see is a real and systematic programme to build affordable and social housing, although there are some units. Do not get me wrong: there is a policy in the inner city to make it a requirement on developers to put a certain percentage of the units into what are called affordable categories. However, even that does not begin to scratch the surface of the need of which I am aware.
Within the church community that I look after, we have some truly outstanding young people. They are all British-born and mainly from ethnic minority backgrounds. Our work is intended to widen their horizons and raise their aspirations to help them see that one day they might become the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a leading journalist or barrister or, indeed, a Member of your Lordships’ House. Why not? We find scholarships and financial help for them at university. We try to open up some kind of new future for them. Sometimes, when I push them, asking them to consider things they had not even imagined before, they come back to me and say, “Why should I bother? Even if you help us with £1,000 or £2,000, we will still have to incur serious debts—and when we come out, how can we hope to live in these neighbourhoods where we have grown up, where our friends are and where our lives have been lived?”, and they are right.
It is impossible to imagine young people having a realistic hope of achieving that simple objective of continuing to live in a part of the world that suits them. Even if they get a job there, it will not lead easily to them getting a mortgage or an opportunity to live there and get their property. Yesterday’s Evening Standard indicated that the average price of a home in London is £421,395 and that if you took out an 85% mortgage on that, you would have to earn £96,000 per annum. Let me say that since I have never earned more than £25,000 in my life, if it were not for the fact that the church provides me with what I have to admit is a very nice house, I do not know how I would be able to cope at all. How can these children whose horizons we are widening, whose hopes we are raising and whose gifts we want to value stand a hope of getting into that sort of league when they do not have any capital behind them, or any parental wealth or clout? It really is serious.
Let me tell your Lordships about the conversations that I have had since the riots in Tottenham two years ago with these very same young people. Mercifully, they were not involved in what happened then but they are able to tell me very eloquently about the degree of alienation they feel, about the “outsideness” of their experience and about the difficulty of getting through certain doors of opportunity to which they might aspire. There is a tinderbox building up in the city centre in London. I do not want to be alarmist or dramatic but I think that there is. We saw an outburst of it two years ago. We simply have to address the needs of poor, aspiring, able and competent young people whose only difficulty is that they want to live in London.
There is some social housing, as I have said, and the Government’s Help to Buy scheme, which the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, mentioned. I do not deplore that, but these do not address the area of primary need and will not get near meeting the demand. When I left this Chamber on Monday to return home and listen to Radio 4, as I always do, a serious discussion programme was going on about how the economic circumstances in our country are leading to joblessness in the north and certain regions and provinces around the land, while there might be the prospect of jobs in London. So we can anticipate a population drift from the north-east and the north-west, where the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, has his nice home in Cumbria—all those areas where, as he said, there is no housing—towards London, which the programme said would become a megacity, with all that that does to complicate a regional social development programme in which the regions, as well as London, can enjoy their proper life as part of our society.
While the qualified jobless from around the country are coming to London, certain boroughs in London are buying cheap property as far away from London as they can in order to meet their obligations to house homeless people by, basically, exporting them. That is what in cricket you call a “reverse swing”. It is moving people against the climate. I invest a lot of my time in the needs of Haiti. We have become accustomed since the earthquake of three years ago to seeing pictures of people living in tented villages; there were 1.5 million of them at one time, although there are now only 250,000. We call them IDPs—internally displaced people. There are going to be an awful lot of IDPs in the United Kingdom if present trends continue.
I shall tell noble Lords what one of my young people who dropped out of university, although he got three As at A-level, said when I asked him, “Why on earth have you done that?”. He told me the usual things that I have already shared with your Lordships about the burden of debt and the inability to get into the housing market and start a life properly and with dignity, but went on to say that at street level the talk was that you did not go down the conventional routes to career-building but looked for quick money in order to bypass a lot of the painstaking work that normally goes into building a career and the shaping of the future. What are those quick paths? Crime, drugs, music, football and fame—all of them, according to the argument, capable of producing quick fixes and rapid promotion into the world of haves, as opposed to have-nots.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, that as our economy needs a lift, a serious attempt should be made to prioritise the creation of infrastructure for the building of homes. It just seems to make sense. The construction industry gets on with things, homes are built and, within homes, security, well-being and health automatically flow. I do not see why we cannot see that; it is a no-brainer. The eight millennium development goals have preoccupied me for the past 15 years or so, and I have always wondered why housing—a shelter, a roof over your head, somewhere you can raise your family with dignity and create an environment that is yours—was not one of them. The noble Lord does us a great favour by bringing this matter to our attention just now.
I began by referring to Monday and Tuesday’s debate, when 538 people went through the Lobbies. I might have been the 539th if my wretched conference had not got in the way. However, the words that I heard repeated most frequently in the speeches that I was party to while in the Chamber were “justice” and “equality”. If ever there was a subject where those ringing words needed to be heard again, it is on the question of addressing the housing needs of ordinary people, whose only hope is that they have somewhere to live their lives with dignity with their families and contribute to the society around them. It does not seem much to ask. Where, ask I with no political background at all, is the will of Governments to address this in a focused and systematic way?
Lord Tope
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for this debate and the way in which he introduced it. It is so easy sometimes to fall into the trap of partisan politics, when indeed I think we will learn through the debate today that many of us actually share concerns and indeed many views about how to address them. I know that the noble Lord has long had an interest in and concern about housing issues, not least, I believe, when he was Member of Parliament for Battersea during the gentrification of Wandsworth. Perhaps that should be the subject of a debate at another time.
We are now a little further down the road, and throughout that period I have been a councillor in a town centre ward for 39 years. When I started, housing issues were of considerable concern at our weekly surgeries. We then went through a period when that was perhaps of less concern, but now it is rising again at our weekly surgeries—not particularly because of the welfare reform changes, which I suspect are yet to bite really seriously, but more because of the economic situation in which many people find ourselves. In my ward we have, for an outer London borough, a relatively high proportion of social housing. Much of the ward’s housing was built in late Victorian times. When I first became a councillor in 1974, much of that was privately rented, by predominantly older people. As they moved on, they were replaced by first-time buyers buying from landlords who were getting out of the rented sector. Now it has a fairly mixed population.
I think that we will hear today quite a lot about the causes of the housing crisis, but I hope that we will spend some of our time on the solutions. The simple facts on which we can all agree are that, for each of the last 30 years at least, not enough new homes have been provided to meet the demand. I was struck when the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, referred to Harold Macmillan’s commitment in 1950 to build 300,000 houses a year—obviously as part of the post-war recovery. Remarkably, although I am not sure why, I still have a boyhood memory from the 1950s of hearing the annual announcement of how many new houses had been provided. I do not know why, but clearly it was of far greater significance then than it is now, otherwise as a child I would not have been aware of such things.
We can probably also agree that, on coming into power in 2010, the coalition Government faced both a housing crisis and a financial crisis—not really the best circumstances in which to reverse a trend of 30 years or more. For the Liberal Democrat part of the coalition, tackling that crisis is a very high priority. I am sure that that is equally true for our coalition partners. Our priorities in tackling it may be slightly different but nevertheless the determination to tackle it is the same, and perhaps the combination of the two different priorities may turn out to be more effective. I assume that the Minister will elaborate on the many measures that the coalition Government have already taken to tackle the crisis—investment in affordable homes, investment to support the increasingly important private rented sector, tackling the scandal of so many empty homes, Help to Buy and so on. Much has been done, in spite of the very difficult financial circumstances, but there is much more that we could and should be doing if we are to get anywhere near succeeding in reaching the target of 240,000 new homes that we need each year.
I make no apology for returning yet again to the need to remove, or at least raise, the borrowing cap to allow local authorities to increase investment in new homes. The LGA estimates that that alone could deliver 60,000 new homes over the next five years as well as a boost to the nation’s GDP. This is a measure strongly supported by pretty well every organisation involved in any way with housing as well as by all political parties in local government. Indeed, most recently the leader of the largest local authority in Europe, Labour-run Birmingham, has made exactly that call, illustrating what it could mean for his city alone.
I know that I do not need to convince the Minister, nor indeed her ministerial colleagues in the CLG; it is really the Treasury to which I am speaking. Why is the UK the only EU member state not to adopt internationally recognised rules to measure government borrowing that regard extra housing investment as a trading activity that does not count as adding to government borrowing levels? Indeed, financial market players have confirmed that the increase in public sector borrowing which would result from the removal of the cap is insignificant in the wider financial picture and the sums involved fall well below the size of the OBR’s forecasting errors on local government debt. I understand very well that the Minister will not be able to make any commitment today in advance of the comprehensive spending review announcements to be made on 26 June, but the lifting of this cap would do more than any other single measure to demonstrate the coalition Government’s strong commitment to tackling the housing crisis.
While we all understand we will have to wait another three weeks for the Government’s view, I remain unclear about the view of the Opposition. I know it is strongly supported by my Labour colleagues in local government and personally supported by many Labour parliamentarians in both Houses. I hope that in replying to the debate today for the Labour Opposition the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, will be able to say that the Official Opposition would support the lifting of this cap. That might give some encouragement to the coalition Government and even to the Treasury.
There are, of course, other measures that the Government could and should be taking. The speedier release of land by the Government themselves, by government agencies and, indeed, by local government, is one of them, but we must recognise that housebuilders will not build unless they know they can sell what they build.
The planning system is often quoted as an inhibitor of development, in my view usually incorrectly. It would be helpful if the Minister could give us an update on the progress being made in the review of planning guidance being led by my noble friend Lord Taylor of Goss Moor. Similarly, I hear that the problem is not so much the speed of decision-making on planning applications, which is probably now taken care of anyway by the provisions of the Growth and Infrastructure Act. The delays come subsequently in the setting of planning conditions and the determination of Section 106 agreements.
The other complaint I heard yesterday evening when I met a number of the larger housebuilders, which I must admit was new to me, was about the widely differing building standards set by local authorities, which inhibit standard design for bigger builders. For instance, they told me that there are 32 different standards in London alone, presumably for each of the 32 London boroughs. As I heard this only last night, I do not know to what extent it is correct, but it is what the big housebuilders believe. As a localist, I am clearly not calling for central government intervention, but it seems to me that local government should be talking with the bigger builders about this issue, especially in London where London Councils plays such a useful role in representing all the London boroughs. It is right that local authorities should be able to decide for themselves but, speaking as a London borough councillor for 39 years and a council leader for 13 of those years, I very much doubt that each London borough knowingly and deliberately decides to adopt different standards from its neighbouring boroughs.
Next, I feel strongly, as I am sure we all do, that we must not sacrifice quality for quantity. We need well designed, energy-efficient homes fit for the 21st century and more needs to be done to help the public to value such energy efficiency.
We also need to be providing homes that meet needs. Here I will single out specifically the needs of young people and older people. Young people are increasingly being priced out of not only the buying market but the renting market, particularly in London. Local authorities and housing associations could and should be doing more to provide new or adapted homes suitable for young people, who are sometimes a transient population. I am not talking about student accommodation but about accommodation perhaps on similar lines for those who simply do not want to buy or simply cannot buy or who do not want or need a long lease because their tenancy is likely to be short. I may be wrong, but the only authority I know of in the country that has such a scheme is the City of Westminster, and we should look at it and learn from it.
I particularly want to make some reference to older people in the time available to me. I have the privilege of being a member of your Lordships’ Select Committee on Public Service and Demographic Change which in March published its report Ready for Ageing?, which I commend to noble Lords, if they have not already read it. Annexe 16 deals with housing provision for older people. I shall not deal with this at any length as I hope later speakers may do so.
Paragraph 270 of the report states:
“Despite growing demand for specialist housing and the substantial wealth held by some older people … there is a gap in the market. There are just 106,000 units of specialist housing for home ownership and 400,000 units for rent in the UK as a whole … In 2010, just 6,000 units for rent and 1,000 for ownership were built, whereas in 1989, 17,500 units for rent were built as well as 13,000 for ownership”.
The report goes on to recommend that:
“Central and local government, housing associations and house builders need urgently to plan how to ensure that the housing needs of the older population are better addressed and to give as much priority to promoting an adequate market and social housing for older people as is given to housing for younger people”.
The conclusion was:
“Central and local government should jointly review how the National Planning Policy Framework’s suggestions might be clarified and tightened to do more to ensure sufficient housing provision for older people”.
I hope that when the Minister comes to reply, no doubt with very many points to reply to, she will be able to give us some indication of how the Government are responding to that useful report.
I have said very little about the private rented sector, and now I have not left myself time to do so. It is clearly increasingly important and receiving increasing attention, but much more needs to be done.
I shall end not by predicting the green shoots of recovery, as I am neither that wise nor that foolish, but I was encouraged to hear last night at a meeting with a number of the bigger housebuilders that they are seeing signs—perhaps faint signs, but some signs—of improvement in the supply. The NHBC reported that it had seen a 35% increase in registrations year on year. It rightly made the point that registrations are not completions, but nevertheless, it is an encouraging sign. We all know that we face a crisis. It is not a new crisis, but a long developed crisis that this Government, and certainly my party, are determined to tackle long before the next Labour Government get an opportunity to do so.
Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, I declare an interest as I have just taken over the chairmanship of a large housing association. I am the chairman of the Orbit Group board.
We face a worsening housing crisis due to a very serious lack of public investment over recent years, the absence of a long-term strategy and, more recently, the financial crisis. As my noble friend Lord Dubs said in his excellent speech, around 230,000 new households form annually, but in the 12 months to March 2013 there were fewer than 102,000 new home starts. Housebuilding has dropped to its lowest level since the 1920s. Housing completions in England fell from 175,000 in 2007 to 115,000 in 2012, an astonishing 34% drop. Instead of proposing credible ways of reversing this decline, the coalition Government reduced the budget for the provision of affordable housing by 63% in the 2010 comprehensive spending review. That is the biggest single cut to any capital budget right across the Government.
We need to consider the social and economic effects of the housing crisis that we now face. Millions of people are being priced out of owning or renting a home. House prices increased from 3.6 to 6.5 times the average salary between 1997 and 2011. Home ownership is in decline. It now takes 22 years for the average low to middle income family to save for a deposit. Some 1.3 million families are struggling to pay their mortgage or rent, spending over 35% of their net income on housing costs.
There are 1.8 million families on waiting lists for social housing. In 2011-12, more than 643,000 households were living in overcrowded accommodation, and a quarter of homes—5.4 million—failed to meet the decent homes standard. Poor housing conditions have a direct impact on residents’ health outcomes and on their educational attainment, particularly for children and young people but also for older people, limiting access to lifelong learning.
In 2011-12, 108,720 households in England applied to their local authorities for homelessness assistance, a 22% rise from just two years earlier. Last autumn there were 2,300 rough sleepers on any one night in England, a rise of 31% from 2010. This is utterly deplorable. One of the measures of a civilised society is that it provides decent accommodation for people, somewhere they can be proud to call home. A failure to do so is deeply damaging to the quality of life of those affected and it is inexcusable in a country as rich as ours.
Despite all the main political parties acknowledging this housing crisis, the lack of a political solution suggests that the Government have not fully grasped its scale. The first fundamental policy change that is needed is a shift from subsidising rents to capital spending. Housing benefit is currently costing £23 billion a year. That is unsustainable and does nothing to address the root cause of the housing crisis, which is that demand for housing far outstrips supply. In 1975, more than 80p in every £1 of public spending on housing was on supply-side capital funding, with only about 20p going on cash benefits to help people pay their rent. The composition of spending has changed dramatically since then. At present, for every £1 spent on housing, only 5p is spent on capital funding, while 95p goes on housing benefit. This is a ridiculously inefficient use of public resources. Without a rebalance, the Government risk fundamentally undermining their own aspirations, which I fully acknowledge, for a housebuilding-led recovery. Perhaps the Minister will comment on how the Government intend to reach a more sensible balance between capital and revenue expenditure.
So far, their main solution—perhaps the Minister will say that it is not their main solution—looks pretty inept. Help to Buy allows anyone, not just first-time buyers, to access a government loan of up to 20% of the value of a property and is available for existing properties, not just new-build ones. The IMF has raised concerns that, by boosting demand without addressing the supply side, Help to Buy may actually drive up prices and put home ownership further out of the reach of most renters. One high-profile City strategist, quoted in yesterday’s Guardian, said that the scheme will artificially prop up the market and prevent prices falling to affordable levels. He said that buyers need cheaper homes, not just available debt to inflate house prices even further. His quip was, “This is madness”, and I cannot disagree.
Moreover, many commentators have questioned why this scheme has a cap as high as £600,000. Perhaps the Minister can tell your Lordships’ House why there is not a much lower cap, consistent with helping first-time buyers from middle and lower income groups who will never be able to afford mortgage repayments on such expensive housing. Does the Minister accept that this scheme will do very little to create additional affordable housing? After all, the NewBuy scheme, which preceded it, led to only 1,500 completions in its first nine months of operation. Have we learnt anything from the housing bubble that helped to create the financial crisis? The Governor of the Bank of England clearly thinks not. The £3.5 billion invested in Help to Buy could have been much better spent delivering 175,000 affordable homes and creating £19 billion gross value added to the economy. Will the Government therefore now look at how they could develop new schemes to support the delivery of affordable housing rather than just home ownership?
While I accept that there is a need to find ways of reducing the large bill for housing benefit, there has also been justifiable criticism of the so-called bedroom tax. This was referred to by my noble friend Lord Dubs but I want to underline what he said. There is concern over the impact and likely hardship that some households will suffer as a result due to no fault of their own. Even if a household wants to move, as my noble friend said, there is often very little prospect of doing so due to the unavailability of suitable smaller properties. Where people move into the privately rented sector, the cost to the Government in housing benefits is simply likely to go up because of higher rents there. Does the Minister accept that a full evaluation of this policy is needed, and that, if it confirms that not only are the savings from it negligible but it is causing hardship to households that are unable to access alternative accommodation and cannot meet their additional costs, the Government should then withdraw the scheme?
Tinkering around in this way does not address the real causes of the vast increase in spending on housing benefit. While unemployment and low incomes clearly contribute, the root of the problem lies in the failure to increase the supply of affordable housing, which drives people into the more expensive privately rented sector. What is needed is a new commitment to a long-term housing strategy, which focuses on at least a five-year programme, giving both local authorities and housing associations a chance to plan their capital expenditure. The IPPR’s recent paper proposes a new affordable housing grant for local authorities, with a legal duty to use these resources to improve access to affordable homes. Its goal would be to increase local authority scope to get housebuilding going, with a longer term outcome of keeping rents more affordable, which would, in turn, reduce the cost of housing benefit. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Tope, who is a great advocate for local authorities, and has just demonstrated that in his speech, has seen this report, but I recommend it to him and other Members of your Lordships’ House.
Nick Pearce is the director of IPPR, and I want to quote him because, although I cannot go into the detail of what is proposed, what it is suggesting is a very interesting solution. He says:
“Combined with local control over planning, social housing allocation and regulation of the private rented sector, this new strategy would be a far more ambitious institutional reform than the coalition’s half-hearted localism. Councils would be required to forge a consensus for their spending plans and housing strategy among a balance of local interests represented on an affordable housing panel—made up of providers, landlords, tenants and owners”.
I hope that the Government, too, if they are not yet aware of that report, will consider it.
Investing in affordable housing is not just socially necessary but, as my noble friend Lord Dubs said, economically sensible. The Centre for Economics and Business Research has calculated that every affordable home built creates 2.3 jobs in England and generates an additional £108,000 in the wider economy. For every £1 of gross value added as a result of investment in new affordable homes, an additional £1.41 of gross value added is generated in the wider UK economy. The IMF and the OECD have both recently called on the Government to boost infrastructure investment and drive economic growth in doing so. The coalition seems hell-bent on ignoring this advice.
My criticisms are not just of current housing policy. I do not simply want to be politically partisan. Many of the problems go back a very long time. They are deeply embedded, with demand outstripping supply for many years. There needs to be some radical new thinking in Whitehall to get away from the lack of a joined-up approach across several departments. We need a medium to long-term strategy with a very strong focus on supply. For too long, central government has believed that it holds all the keys—and noble Lords will forgive me the metaphor. Can we now move towards more local solutions as proposed by the IPPR and touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, while focusing on making home ownership a real possibility for the many who aspire to it but currently cannot attain it? We need to be careful not to neglect those who rent, whether in an under-regulated private sector or in social housing, which should be seen as a genuine alternative and not just a fallback for those who cannot own. Above all, we must now focus on increasing supply to reduce the unmet need to which my noble friend Lord Dubs has so rightly drawn attention.
Lord Morris of Handsworth
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Dubs for securing this very important and timely debate. As chair of Midland Heart housing association, I declare an interest.
In any introduction, formal or informal, the first two questions are nearly always the same: “What do you do?” and “Where do you live?”. Sadly, for an increasing number of our fellow citizens, the answer to those two questions is very simple: “I do nothing, I am unemployed, and I live nowhere because I am homeless. I can’t get a job because I don’t have a home, and I can’t get a home because I haven’t got a job”. We can therefore conclude that the unmet needs of housing and indeed employment are the twin barriers to social and economic progress for many.
Housing and employment defines the individual. Those two essentials of life influence where we live, the choice of schools for our children, access to public transport and, of course, access to good healthcare. But I accept that we cannot all move to Chipping Warden. They would not let me in anyway. Perhaps they think that I would frighten the horses.
A recent report from Shelter and KPMG established that we are simply failing to build enough houses to meet demand. The House will forgive me for any repetition; a lot of the figures that we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, are also available to me, because we both chair housing associations and our source of information is broadly common. We know from our individual experience that house prices almost doubled between 1995 and 2007. In recent years, we have seen no significant increase in new-build housing. While I note the Government’s Funding for Lending scheme, the only visible outcome is the incentive for lenders and the creation of a possible financial bubble in the housing market. Indeed, the noble Baroness drew attention to the comments of the Governor of the Bank of England, who warned against making policies designed to boost the housing market artificially. Boosting the housing market is important, but we also want to boost housing build.
Everyone except the Government accepts that social housing providers have a critical role to play, particularly at a time of austerity when demand continues to outstrip supply. Reports of homelessness have increased, and the Department for Communities and Local Government recently recorded that in 2011 there were more than 48,000 homeless families, with the number of households in temporary accommodation standing in excess of some 60,000. Social housing providers accept that they have a role to play, but why are they unable to meet the demands of their customers? The DCLG report shows that nearly 2 million families and more than 4 million individuals were sitting on waiting lists.
In 2012, the National Housing Federation estimated that in the West Midlands metropolitan region alone waiting lists stood at nearly 99,000. In my organisation, Midland Heart, there are more than 20,000 on our waiting list, with our lettings at no more than 2,000 per annum. The problem for social housing providers is insurmountable unless we get real action and a positive and active partnership with government.
Among housing professionals it is common ground that the Government have not taken any real, effective measures to satisfy the increase in demand in the social housing sector. Indeed, the building of new social housing has dropped during the past 12 months. The magazine Inside Housing quotes the DCLG as showing that between January and March the associations built only about 4,800 houses. That is a fall of approximately 9% on the previous quarter. However, the really bad news for those on the waiting list is that completions have decreased. The reality is that families and individuals are simply unable to access affordable housing, and existing tenants are unable to move. To cap it all, the recent welfare reforms will bring more instability and fear to thousands of families.
My organisation works with some of the most deprived and financially excluded families in the country. Unlike many other social housing providers, it knows that the welfare reform cuts will bring real hardship to many of the people we serve. While providers are taking measures to help people through changes, many of those we serve are struggling to maintain their existing tenancies due to the rise in housing costs, which has been exacerbated by the bedroom tax, as well by the increases in the cost of living due to austerity.
The latest figures available to us indicate that we are seeing a possible 2% increase in homelessness, and indeed overcrowding, for the year ahead. There is no argument or debate on current trends: overcrowding and homelessness can go only one way, and that is upwards. The housing crisis is not coming—it is here; it has arrived—and because of the bedroom tax there is no room to which Cathy can come home.
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and all the speakers who have preceded me, because many of us are covering the same ground and have similar statistics—if I repeat any, please forgive me. However, all of us who are speaking care about this issue, otherwise we would not be speaking here today. I also declare an interest as a long-term councillor on the London Borough of Barnet. Unlike my noble friend Lord Tope, who has been a councillor since 1974, I am a much more recent addition, having been a councillor for only 27 years.
I will talk first about the supply of council housing. Council housing demand was outstripping supply towards the end of the 1990s. Even the hardest to let high-rise properties were taken by families in desperate circumstances. The national figures bear this out. By 1997 the number of families on housing waiting lists had reached just over 1 million. Sadly, in the years of the previous Labour Government—which the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, referred to as the next Labour Government—the waiting lists rose to around 1.8 million while the number of affordable homes fell by some 420,000.
A big help towards solving this will be the housing investment programme promised by the coalition Government. Over the lifetime of this Parliament, the coalition Government are investing to build some 170,000 affordable homes—a much needed increase that will benefit those most in need. Overall, if this is met—and I believe it will be—this will be the first Government in more than 30 years to deliver a net increase in social housing stock.
With regard to investment in social housing, investment in the condition of stock was linked arbitrarily by the Labour Government to ownership and management models instead of need. Decent Homes funding was restricted to boroughs able to persuade their tenants to transfer out of direct council ownership and management, either to other stock transfer or to an arm’s-length management organisation, or ALMO. I was a founder member of Barnet Homes and for many years a director of that company. Barnet Council took the money and improved the property under the Decent Homes schedule. Many other local authorities did not want to do this and kept their housing, so by the end of the Decent Homes programme, more than a quarter of national council housing had not been improved to meet government standards.
Large transfers of council housing to housing associations, together with a programme of mergers, have led to much larger housing associations in recent years. The best of them have developed their governance to engage and involve their tenants and residents, and this good practice must be spread across the whole sector. Many of us perhaps come across housing associations where the governance is not as good as that. When I, as a local councillor, seek to speak to someone in some of these local housing associations, the staff have all changed from top to bottom, and I cannot use the contacts I used when just talking to the borough housing department.
One of the biggest problems faced at the end of the 2000s was the grinding to a halt of the housing market and the building of new homes. Some estimates say that there has been an annual shortfall of more than 100,000 properties being built despite the growing number of households in Britain. Turning around the mortgage market has been a challenge to reversing this crisis. This was referred to by other noble Lords. The Government have been innovative in promoting schemes to kick-start mortgage lending. However, I worry about this policy. It will increase the prices of homes because the money will be chasing fewer properties, and this will mean that the properties are more expensive in London—more expensive than anyone at the lower end of the scale can afford. It will also mean that if the housing market does not keep rising, the owners of those properties will have negative equity and find it difficult to sell them. If there is a shortfall—of 20%, or the 120% referred to by noble Lords—that risk will be covered by the Government rather than by the banks, because that part of the loan has been financed by the Government. That is not a sensible policy, and I ask the Minister to comment on how we can ensure that this boost to mortgages does not mean a big rise to existing properties without any security if there is a downturn in the housing market.
I turn to what is called a bedroom tax, which seems to be what we have to call it nowadays, although it is the extra bedroom in people’s properties. While there are understandable concerns from tenants—which I have heard from tenants in my own ward who are affected by the changes in housing benefit—the debate about subsidies for spare rooms might be improved, or better understood, if we were prepared to accept that the Labour Government first introduced this measure for private sector tenants claiming housing benefit as far back as 2007. You got the benefit for only the number of rooms that you needed, so that concept was there before. They did not make any exceptions to that policy, for example for disability, carers, military families and so on, which are at least in the present policy. However, that policy is not quite right and, in particular, while it is all very well to introduce the policy, it is completely wrong to say, as my Government did, that it should all come in on 1 April, which it did, when there are no one-bedroom properties for those people to transfer into. Such a policy should have been graded in and we should try to make some exceptions for people who would be willing to live in a one-bedroom property, if only there was such a property to which they should be transferred.
On the impact of universal credit, it is understandable that people, while welcoming the principles behind universal credit, are nervous about some aspects of the detail. However, I think I speak for many people who support the aim of making work pay and making the transition from benefit to work manageable. Converting benefits to a monthly payment from which we will ask people to budget sensibly would seem to be a necessary conclusion. However, if housing landlords cannot continue to collect housing benefit directly from the Government, we will see that some tenants, strangely, will decide that their priorities are buying food and other things rather than paying their rent, and we will get back to a stage where there are large underpayments of rent because the money is being paid directly to tenants.
As I said, we are building 100,000 fewer homes than we need each year. Over the next 10 years, approximately 230,000 more households a year will need properties, and we are not meeting demand. As my noble friend Lord Tope said, there is a housing crisis—but it is not new. There has been a crisis for a long time, and we have to build our way out of it. All noble Lords have said this in one way or another. However, the proposed reforms to planning law to permit sizeable extensions without planning restrictions are a recipe for neighbour strife. The idea that you can build over the larger part of your garden and not have to go through the normal planning regulations, and that your neighbour will have only a certain amount of time to object, is a recipe for disaster. Under the present planning system, in my borough the majority of planning decisions for houses—we are not talking about big developments—are delegated to officers, so the resident who needs an extension is already dealt with pretty swiftly. Very few applications come to the housing committee.
I have not found a record of a single new development of more than 13,500 homes in the UK since the 1970s. In the latter part of last year, the Deputy Prime Minister said that we should re-examine garden cities. I was somewhat pre-empted earlier today by the Question about garden cities that was asked, but I will develop the subject a bit more than one can do in a Question and Answer. Letchworth was the first garden city in 1903. Then came Welwyn, and in 1946 the New Towns Act was passed. As a very young chartered accountant, I decided on my own initiative to go and audit Basildon new town development. It was a rude shock to the developers and contractors when the young accountant came up and said that he was from the external auditors. I thought that they were going to die on the spot. They fed me very well as they gave me a tour. This massive Basildon development was built during my professional career. It was not that long ago.
Do we continue to try to satisfy housing need by building higher and denser, and by permitting haphazard urban sprawl? Apparently we already build the smallest homes in western Europe. My noble friend Lord Tope talked about the 32 standards in London. In my early involvement in housing, we talked always about the Parker Morris standards. We should have a uniform system of housing so that everybody knows the minimum—not the maximum—standards. That system has long been forgotten. We should ask where the next Milton Keynes will be. People there do not just live in the city but commute into it, which is a sign of its success.
Other noble Lords talked about acquiring more land for building, both from local authorities and from government, but the big issue is how developers hold land banks because they increase in value. There should be a penalty system, however one describes it, so that if you hold land for a longish period and do not develop it, you should be taxed in some way on the holding of that land, to encourage you to build properties that people can live in. The Government should promote or encourage this way forward, which will take longer to achieve but will be needed to tackle the deficit in housing.
We need to pursue the proposal for further garden cities. I hope that the Minister will say how this will proceed in a proper, organised manner—not piecemeal, by looking at one possibility and then perhaps taking a long time over it—with a national plan so that we can decide where the new towns and cities will be. Without large-scale development we will not satisfy the deficit in housing from which this country suffers.
Lord Sawyer
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Dubs for initiating this important debate. I was prompted to speak by reading Alan Johnson’s book about his childhood in Notting Hill, and the poor housing conditions that he and his family had to suffer. I remembered my own childhood, too. We might think that things are a lot better now, but, sadly, for many people that is not the case. Today there are still families living in one room, or sharing a kitchen and bathroom, or perhaps living in bed and breakfast accommodation, or a hostel, or in the unregulated private sector. On reading Alan’s book, I thought: I hope that we as a Parliament do not forget, from our privileged position on the red or green Benches, that there are still many thousands of people not adequately housed and living in very poor circumstances. We must never forget that in our deliberations.
There are still unscrupulous landlords who know that people on poor incomes will put up with squalor, damp and disrepair, and so it goes on. My noble friend Lord Morris said that the days of “Cathy Come Home” are still here and he is absolutely right. Although it is 50 years since that programme was made, in some parts of our country we are still no closer to making sure that everyone has a decent place to live, let alone a place to live in a garden city. We need to remember that.
As many noble Lords have said, things are generally getting more difficult for people as regards housing. As if things were not bad enough, the Government have decided to insist that poor people who are adequately housed should give up their rights and privileges and that those with a spare bedroom, possibly measuring eight feet by 10 feet—which is probably smaller than the people who frame their legislation would keep their dogs in—should give it up to a lodger or another family or pay extra for it. Stephanie Bottrill was so upset that she would be charged £80 a month for her two spare rooms that she walked into the path of a lorry and was killed.
Notting Hill Housing, of which I was the chairman for a number of years, has drawn my attention to the impact of universal credit on some of its larger families who are particularly hard hit. In one case, a single mother with eight children will lose over £350 a week. She is desperately worried about what will happen to her and her family. Housing associations, such as Notting Hill, and councils want to do more but the cuts in capital funding for new build restrict what can be built. There are 1.8 million households on the waiting list. Many private landlords are exploiting the situation by raising their rents or neglecting to do repairs. Often tenants have to compete with sealed bids over the asking rent just to get into a home, or have to offer to take a much longer contract to get occupancy of a flat or house. Can noble Lords believe that? I did not know about it myself until this week.
Noble Lords have asked what can be done. It is right that we talk about what can be done, with the caveat I mentioned earlier that we never forget what it is like for people today planning for their future. We need to be aware of this big problem and be motivated to tackle it. We have all talked about the housing shortage. That must be a given, particularly in London and the south-east. In Brighton—where I have cause to live on occasion—the council is using shipping containers to house the homeless. That may be considered a solution by some people but it is not really a solution at all. What is really needed is a unifying national campaign. We do not need a strategy but a campaign which will unite all parties and all sectors of society to build enough homes to meet the need.
I have taken part in many housing debates in the House where we have talked about Parker Morris standards, garden cities, quality versus quantity, high rise versus low rise and green belt versus brown belt. These are debates that have to be had but sometimes in the past we have become bogged down in the arguments and missed the big picture. The picture people care about out there is getting homes. If there was a drive to house people adequately, there would be diversity of provision. People who love quality might be disappointed and people who want quantity might be disappointed and the various interest groups might not always agree but we need to cut through some of this stuff and get on to build the homes that people need. If we do not do so, we will be standing here in 15 years’ time talking, as I have done, about the same issues and making slight amendments and improvements here and there but not actually tackling the big picture. We need a big picture approach and to pull people in who have new ideas. We need to get outside the box and think about converting shops and offices into housing and encourage development through the planning and tax systems. We need to think about new towns, garden cities and new cities. However, none of this will happen unless we have strong political will.
The deep conservatism of many communities against new homes should be challenged by those of us who want to build more housing for the people who need it. The homeless, the badly housed, the priced-out people, the overcrowded families, the oppressed immigrants at the mercy of disreputable landlords, the frightened council tenant with a spare room, all these people—who are mostly in London and the south-east, but wherever they may be—need us in Parliament to raise our voices and heads and say that we must build more homes, and we must have the political will to do it.
There is also another group of people who may not be in that category, who had it very easy 50 years ago, as I did. These are people with a steady job earning a good wage, such as teachers and nurses; although today the problem affects even accountants and highly paid professional people, unlike in my time. Without parental help it is just about impossible for these people to buy in London or in some of our more expensive cities. Those from ordinary backgrounds with university debt and other commitments struggle to afford a big deposit and huge monthly mortgages. This group needs government help. Schemes like shared ownership help quite a few families, and some other initiatives might help, but I am afraid that for many their only option for the foreseeable future is long-term renting in the private sector. These people will not get mortgages or on the house-buying ladder, as did their parents and grandparents. They will be in the private rented sector for a long time. Sometimes the private sector is good but sometimes housing in it is badly maintained with insecure homes, managed by buy-to-let landlords, which are not good enough.
All parties when in power must drive up standards in the private rented sector as more and more people will come to depend on it. We need houses in that sector with economic rents. We could achieve this through planning and tax incentives rather than rent control, which would probably reduce supply. I would like civil society and the wider community to get involved in this sector. I would like trade unions, building societies, local authorities, churches and all kinds of people to get involved and ask themselves, “Can we make a contribution to the private housing sector? Can we build something? Can we club together with others to build something? What can we do to make this a better place to live in for the people who have to live in it?”.
Finally, I should like to say something about my generation. We are the generation who had it all. We have heard about the increases in house prices and the cheap university education that I did not personally have but many colleagues and friends did. Many of those who had the financial capital decided to become private landlords. I hope that there will be new thinking in a world where we can create a more viable private rented sector whereby individuals who want to invest in the sector join others in doing so. Some of those in my generation who invest in buy-to-let properties are not investing in properties for people but in investment vehicles and are looking to realise their capital gains and rental benefits from private houses. They do not care about the young people, even their own children, who have to pay these rents. We have to talk about that question. Why is our generation charging our children such enormous rents to live in houses because we have been so lucky? I am not saying that such people are bad or immoral but there ought to be other ways to make sure that people who want to invest in the private rented sector join others in doing so.
We must get across to all our friends, colleagues and close associates in this society that houses are not for capital gain or vehicles for profit; they are homes, and we do not have enough of them for people to live in. We cannot afford to turn them into vehicles for capital accumulation, and we should talk about this much more.
Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for introducing a debate on this important subject and for the comprehensive manner in which he did so.
We are facing a housing crisis for poorer people, not only in London but more generally. On 4 March, I asked the Minister in this House what the Government would do to assist families who face homelessness as a result of the housing benefit changes introduced last April. I said that it had been reported that 600,000 households would be affected by the changes, and those unable to meet the requirements under the changes would get into arrears and face eviction. The changes involved the so-called bedroom tax. The Minister, however, insisted that there should not be an increase in homelessness as a result and that local authorities could make discretionary payments to deal with any serious cases. It would now seem that the worries that many of us had were quite justified.
All over the country, tenants in social housing have been receiving letters threatening them with eviction. This has happened to tenants in Brighton and Leeds. In Nottingham, Bradford, Portsmouth and other cities, notices of arrears have been sent to tenants. Housing associations in Manchester and Glasgow say that large numbers of tenants cannot pay the increases required. The discretionary fund that the Government have said would cover the more extreme cases of deprivation was insufficient to cover the shortfall.
Tenants recognised as disabled have also been affected by this change in benefits. The National Housing Federation has said that if £30 million of discretionary housing payments were to be distributed equally among the claimants of disability living allowance who are affected, they would receive only £2.51 per week. Of course, the increases required, I understand, are £14 extra for an additional room and £25 a week for more than one room. The sizes of the rent increases are large for very poor people.
Of course the Government will say that people who cannot afford the increase should downsize and leave the accommodation freer for a family needing it. Unfortunately, as we have heard in this debate, insufficient smaller properties are available. The introduction of the so-called bedroom tax has created a new set of problems and does little to deal with the present problem of a lack of sufficient social housing.
This is occurring at a time when benefit changes are already beginning to affect many poor and vulnerable people. As a result of the current fiscal policies, Citizens Advice is obliged to close some offices, resulting in massive queues at the offices that remain available. I am told that in my area, people have to wait for two or three hours before they can get in to get the advice they need. This applies to disabled people who have been reassessed by Atos and are seeking advice. In addition, legal aid is not available, as we know from when recently we discussed the LASPO Bill in this House.
The right to buy was fine for some people but social housing that became privatised as a result of that policy was not replaced. Nor will the Government’s new policy in that area assist in large parts of London. Private sector rents are too high and salaries too low. One problem—in my opinion as a former trade union official—is that in the private sector trade union organisation has been weakened as a result of successive government policies and therefore people are not paid enough for the jobs they do. There is also the awful shortage of social housing.
We have been told by the Mayor of London that he intends to build some affordable housing within the next few years. However, that of course is in the future and there should be plans to deal with the present crisis. If there is an expectation that the private sector will provide housing, there has to be some form of regulation—some means of controlling rents—as existed in the years following the last war. In the mean time, the Government should rethink their policy on the so-called bedroom tax. I understand that a review is to be published in 2015. However, that is too long to wait for vulnerable disabled people who are facing possible downsizing or further impoverishment. As for the right-to-buy policy, as has already been indicated by a number of contributors to this most interesting debate, this is unlikely to get poorer, younger people on to the housing ladder; it will simply add to debt. Cheaper housing is required, not more young people in debt. In an era of insecure employment, it is likely to leave us with yet more problems.
The Government need to rethink the policies along the lines suggested by a number of contributors to this debate and ensure that, somehow or other, we manage to work our way out of the appalling situation that now faces many poorer and vulnerable people, who simply cannot afford somewhere to live. That is a disgrace in a country as wealthy as ours.
Lord Collins of Highbury
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Dubs for initiating this debate. He has a terrific and proud record of raising housing issues and developing housing policy.
We face the biggest housing crisis in a generation, and the Government’s housing and economic policies are not helping. The first priority must be to address, by building more homes, the housing shortages that are the underlying cause of homelessness, overcrowding, high rents and low standards of accommodation.
Housebuilding is crucial to economic recovery and to helping families to get on to the housing ladder. Young people today are increasingly being priced out of buying or renting a home of their own. People from all walks of life struggle to get the housing they need or want, and it holds them back in life. Meanwhile, our economy is held back by the lack of construction.
History tells us that a major programme of housebuilding has always been at the heart of economic recovery in our country—public and private—and that it is not possible to have a sustainable economic recovery without a major programme of housebuilding. The CBI rightly makes the point that the 100,000 affordable homes will see 1% added to GDP. As has been highlighted in this debate, housebuilding fell by 11% in 2012, the number of housing completions has fallen in both years since the general election, and homelessness is up by a third. As my noble friend Lord Dubs reminded us, in 2012-13 a total of 108,000 homes were completed in England, yet Shelter’s report, Homes for the Future, identified an annual need for 242,000 new homes to meet current demand.
I am the first to acknowledge that the biggest housing crisis in a generation does not date back to May 2010. Having said that, I should point out that in 2010 we warned what the consequences of the crisis would be. The £4 billion cut in affordable housing investment in the Chancellor’s first Budget resulted in a 68% collapse in affordable house building and a 97% collapse in council house building at the worst possible time.
The impact of these cuts in public investment has been extremely serious. The number of housing association starts has fallen by 23% to 19,500 in the past year, and the uncertainty created by changes in the planning system has not helped. As noble Lords have pointed out, it is not necessarily a problem of planning.
Currently there are more than 1.8 million households on waiting lists and more than 500,000 households living in overcrowded conditions in England, as highlighted by my noble friends Lord Morris and Lord Sawyer.
There is no doubt that the planning system was in need of reform but it is clear that it was never as big a problem as some have pretended. Indeed, there is land with existing planning permission capable of sustaining 470,000 homes. Those homes are simply not being built. The Government have launched four major housing schemes in three years and made more than 300 announcements on housing, yet all of these schemes have so far completely failed to tackle the housing crisis. By simply stimulating demand through plans for Help to Buy, mortgage guarantees and equity loans rather than directly boosting supply, there is a danger, as my noble friend Lady Blackstone has pointed out, that it will simply push up prices.
As my noble friend Lord Griffiths put so well, the property market is becoming out of reach for many renters. Research in a Scottish Widows report published last month found that at people’s current saving rates a first-time buyer will take almost 13 years to save the £27,984 required for the average deposit. With property ownership seeming a distant dream, its research suggests that many renters may have given up on property ownership, with only 29% actively saving to put a deposit on a home.
Although I accept that we may have a small positive sign with the news from Nationwide a few weeks ago that first-time buyers are beginning to get on to the housing market, we also need subsidised housing for those who cannot afford to purchase or to pay full market rents. Action on affordable housing is needed and the announcement that an extra £225 million will be available is welcome news. However, only £125 million will be spent before 2015, according to the OBR, and that is dwarfed, as I have said, by the £4 billion cut in funding for affordable housing.
As my noble friend Lady Turner has said, and many noble Lords in today’s debate have highlighted, while one government department introduces measures to support housing another exacerbates the problem. The bedroom tax, the levy on housing association and council tenants deemed to have a spare room, penalises those in work as well as those who must find money from their other benefits by cutting back on essentials.
Not only does it have a human impact, as highlighted by many noble Lords in the debate, it will also have other perverse outcomes. If people are pushed into the private rented sector, there is the potential for rents to be higher, which increases the housing benefit bill and the potential for greater homelessness. There is growing and disturbing evidence of the potential of this now to have an impact on new builds—on supply—because of the write-off of bad debt and the burden of cost being imposed on housing associations and local authorities. As chair of a credit union myself, and as the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, highlighted, I am only too aware that many housing associations whose tenants are being hit by the welfare changes anticipate major problems with rent arrears.
While scrapping this measure would be best, can the Minister say whether, when the Government review its impact, they will consider the current discretionary housing payment that local authorities need to deploy in the many cases of hardship where tenants cannot be offered a suitable smaller property? All of this means that housing bodies must cut back on spending on new housing investment just when the Government need them to do more. Also, they will be less able to undertake broader community work such as addressing those with special needs, tackling anti-social behaviour and supporting young people into training and jobs.
With the huge squeeze on living standards and a faltering economy, the Government’s failure to provide affordable housing means that millions of families are being priced out of living in a decent home. Not only have affordable housing starts collapsed from 49,363 in 2010-11 to only 15,698 in 2011-12, we have the added problem that many of the homes under the Government’s affordable homes programme, let at 80% of the market rent, are not affordable in many parts of the country. I would also point out to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, that it is a bit cheeky to claim that the proposal to provide 170,000 affordable homes was realised as a consequence of this Government’s actions when the National Audit Office has made the very good point that 70,000 of those homes were commissioned and paid for by the previous Government.
Statutory homelessness rose from 10,000 at the end of 2010 to 13,570 by the end of 2012. As a result, as has been highlighted by some of my noble friends, local authorities are placing a worrying number of families in temporary accommodation. Some 53,130 households were living in temporary accommodation at the end of 2012, 9% higher than the previous year. The failure to tackle this problem is devastating for many families and, according to new research by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, it is proving to be incredibly costly. Over the past four years, the UK has spent almost £4 billion housing vulnerable homeless families in short-term temporary accommodation. Again, in the past four years, £1.88 billion—enough to build 72,000 homes in London and house all 53,000 households that are currently homeless—has gone on renting temporary accommodation in 12 of Britain’s biggest cities.
I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Tope, says and I will not be tempted by his kind offer to make a spending commitment. Like the Minister, I am not in a position to do so. However, the noble Lord is absolutely right to recognise that over and above what we commit by way of grant and investment, we need innovatory forms of funding the housing supply. The Communities and Local Government Select Committee of the other place was right to advance a debate that we badly need to have about a housing investment bank. Last summer, the leader of my party proposed a British investment bank with a focus on manufacturing and housing. Labour has previously called on the Chancellor to use the money raised by the 4G mobile spectrum auction to build 100,000 affordable homes. Ed Miliband has also called for an immediate tax on bankers’ bonuses to fund 25,000 affordable homes.
My noble friend Lady Blackstone highlighted the issue of housing benefit—the rising cost and the proportion of costs accounted for by benefits. Today, Ed Miliband, in tackling the rising cost of housing benefit, committed the Labour Government to giving councils the power to negotiate over housing benefit on behalf of tenants, to get greater savings than an individual can get on their own. Ed Miliband said that not only would they be able to create those savings but to retain some of them, as long as the money was used to build new homes.
People should have a decent home at a price they can afford to rent or buy. The crucial point is how we locate that in the context of economic recovery in our country. Sustainable economic recovery will not happen unless we have a major programme of public and private housebuilding. We have the biggest housing crisis in a generation and an economy that is bumping along the bottom. As my noble friend Lady Blackstone said, the Government badly need to come forward with a serious long-term strategy for getting Britain building.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
My Lords, the contributions to housing debates in this House always come from experienced people. It has been an extremely wide-ranging debate and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for having introduced it because it is good for us, every so often, to be able to rehearse the issues. I do not think there is any disagreement between us that we need more houses and more housebuilding. We are all in accord with that. It would also be fair to say that it is recognised that this did not start in 2010 and that this is a long, historical problem. It may even go back as far as Harold Macmillan and his 300,000 houses following the war. We have never seriously caught up in all that time. We are not going to reverse history within a decade but there is a general expectation and understanding that we need to make solid progress where we can.
I recognise at once that housing is inextricably linked to the wider health of the country. We know that it is linked to the economy and the financial markets, and leads to confidence in the economy and the confidence of housebuilders. There is a huge pot here of things that need to be done to get the bricks built on the ground. This Government are committed to seeing a major increase in the supply of new homes where they are needed and wanted. We all recognise that this is a local problem in many respects. Local authorities know where they need housing and have in their hands—through their housing strategies, their local development plans and the arrangements they come to with developers on what affordable housing is provided under Section 106 requirements—a certain amount of power.
We need also to provide the confidence that housebuilders need, which is very gradually coming to fruition. We are beginning to see that housebuilders are more confident about moving forward. I accept that the economy has held some of this back but, once again, that did not start in 2010. I also recognise that the hopes and plans of young people, families and older households across the country are affected by all of this. Our aim is also to help people achieve their aspiration to live in a home that gives them security to plan for their future. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, that there is a particular problem in London. We are all seeing investment in very expensive properties that are not immediately available to other people. But I go back to my point about Section 106: where permission is given for these rather grand glass buildings, which are then sold off for horrific sums of money, within that there has to be a Section 106 agreement that recognises that affordable housing is required.
The Government are already committed to investing more than £11 billion in housing programmes during this spending review period. Concerns have been raised about a bubble being created by giving help to the private sector—if only. If there were a bubble of anything we would be quite grateful. We have to ensure that the movement is there and that housing continues to be provided in all sectors: social housing, affordable housing, the private rented sector and assistance with mortgages. The Government are doing all of that. One noble Lord said that we had made 300 announcements over the past three years. That ought to indicate that we are doing a very great deal to try to ensure that this sector is motivated and action is generated.
We believe that this action is starting to have an effect. As noble Lords have said, we have reformed the planning system to support the delivery of new housing. There are early signs of progress; for example, 20% more new homes were given the green light in 2012-13 compared to the previous year. We are all trading figures here. They may come from slightly different angles. I am going to give noble Lords mine and if they do not totally accord we can argue that out afterwards. Housebuilding starts in England were 15% higher in the March quarter of 2013 than in the same period of the previous year. As the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, said, in the first 18 months of this affordable homes programme, we have delivered almost 63,000 affordable homes of the 170,000 we expect to provide within the spending review period.
Our large sites programme is already being successful, with investments of £76.7 million of recoverable loans to accelerate developments, contributing to bringing forward up to 42,000 new homes, boosting the construction industry and stimulating local growth. Several noble Lords referred to the lack of land. I will just draw attention to something that I have spoken about in this House before, which is that public sector land is being released, pretty quickly now, to enable more than 100,000 new houses to be built on that land. Work is starting on large sites. I drew attention earlier today to Cranbrook in Devon but there are other examples across the country of larger-scale developments taking place. Some of those developments, particularly in Cranbrook, are already completed and people are moving in. So there is an expectation not only of small developments but large developments of much needed homes.
It may be a good moment to say to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, that we had a Question on garden cities this morning. He may not have heard me say so but the principles of garden cities are being built in to these large new developments so that they do not all end up as amorphous and uninteresting new developments.
Mention has been made of the Help to Buy equity loan scheme launched in April. It has already boosted 1,500 reservations on new homes in the first month alone. That demonstrates that there is not only an appetite to go forward—the money is available—but there are now people making clear that they want to use it. No one has mentioned today the new homes bonus. More than £1.3 billion has already been allocated through the new homes bonus. That demonstrates that there are either houses built or empty homes brought back into use, because the money is not paid unless there is evidence of that. We know that more than 400,000 homes have been provided as a result of the new homes bonus and that 55,000 long-term empty homes have been brought back into use.
We have tried to help not only homes to own but the private rented sector. We appreciate that the private rented sector has a big role to play. We have the Build to Rent fund, announced last September, which was so oversubscribed that in Budget 2013 we were allocated a further £800 million on top of the original £200 million, so that we could support as many projects as possible.
We are committed to tackling the long-standing gap between housing supply and demand and addressing market failures where intervention is needed. It is important that we do not step in where the market can do it itself, but where it needs a nudge or help, we must find the policies to do that. We all have to recognise that this approach will require patience at times, but also a bit of ingenuity and an ability to move where necessary when we see that things need to be given a bit of a push.
Things are moving in the right direction. Housebuilding starts in the quarter to March were 4% higher than in the previous quarter, but there is a long way to go before we reach the levels of growth that we need. We recognise that. On affordable housing investment supply, there has been a £19.5 billion investment—that includes investment from the private sector and, as I said, 170,000 new homes will be built by March 2015. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, asked about the housing cap. We have had discussions on the housing cap before when he, his noble friend Lord Palmer and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, have promoted the removal of the cap from local authorities to give them the head room to provide social housing. It is worth remembering that local authorities already have £2.8 billion head room within the cap, much of which they could use to help those housing needs. Many local authorities have land that they could use already.
The noble Lord, Lord Tope, referred to the expansion of the rented sector. We have provided funding to support that. We have also commissioned and received the report from Sir Adrian Montague identifying barriers to institutional investment in the private rented sector. That is being considered at present. As a result of that report, we set up the Build to Rent fund to stimulate building in the rental market.
The large sites programme, to which I have already referred, is beginning to demonstrate that lots of housing can be built on those sites and can be supported by both public and private finance. The empty homes policy and the decent homes policy have been successful. There is much evidence for that.
A number of noble Lords raised what they call the bedroom tax, and what I call the spare room subsidy. The noble Lords, Lord Tope and Lord Palmer, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Blackstone and Lady Turner, all referred to this. Public housing is not something where we can be cavalier about ensuring that it is properly used. The situation is that there are more than 1 million spare bedrooms in the social housing sector at present. Housing benefit for the social rented sector is being paid for accommodation regardless of its size, even when considered too large for a household’s need. This is really about the fairness of the use of social housing stock and fairness to people. It is not expected that they should be forced to move. We expect that some people may want to move. They may get a job or increase the hours that they are working, while some may, for example, take in a lodger. However, by and large we do not think that this will displace a huge number of people. As I say, additional affordable homes are being built.
However, there are exemptions and we ought to be clear about them. The additional room is allowed for foster carers and for an adult child in the Armed Forces who is living at home but on deployment. It does not apply to supported exempt accommodation. Children unable to share due to disability may also be allowed the extra room at the local authority’s discretion. In addition, as noble Lords have said, the discretionary housing payment is available to help support it.
In his introduction the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, talked about homelessness. This is where I worry that we trade figures as our estimate is that homelessness still remains low. Despite all the economic challenges we face, it is still less than half the level that it reached under the previous Administration. There are strong safety nets in place. There is the No Second Night Out project in Greater London, which is being extended, while all local authorities are required to ensure that they do not have homeless people for any length of time.
We have committed to tackling homelessness and rough sleeping. More than £400 million is being invested in homelessness prevention, which is extremely important. On top of that, we announced an additional £70 million to tackle and prevent homelessness in 2011-12. That includes the homelessness transition fund to support No Second Night Out, £20 million to help ensure that single homeless people get access to good housing advice, the preventing repossessions fund to enable local authorities to intervene early, £5 million to boost the homelessness change programme, and £5 million for the social impact fund. We do not expect temporary accommodation figures to go up very much. The bed-and-breakfast rate is a challenge but there should be no reason for any local authority to leave people in bed and breakfast, or indeed for having to use temporary out-of-area accommodation.
If I may, I will briefly go through some of the questions. I think I have covered some of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, raised in his excellent introduction. He said that the welfare benefit cap should take account of different rent levels in different parts of the country. Average earnings, by definition, determine the level of the cap. People receive benefit according to the cost of the property they are in. We think that there has to be a maximum level of support which benefits will pay. Indeed, it is good to note that in the past couple of days the party in opposition has at last been able to recognise that welfare payments have to be controlled in some way.
The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, also raised the issue of Oxford City Council. This is a matter between local authorities, but it is perfectly possible now for local authorities to have developments that go across boundaries. The Growth and Infrastructure Act enables developers to submit major planning applications and, as I say, they can straddle local boundaries if the will is there. It may be that there is a bit of a problem about the will, but there is nothing to stop them.
I hope that I have dealt with most of what the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, said. I agree with quite a lot of it, including the concern about young people. That is at the bottom of what we are all worried about—the future and future generations. Even if we can manage, they are finding it very hard. That is why we are working hard with all these policies to try to ensure that we get over this terrible difficulty in the not too distant future.
The noble Lord, Lord Tope, asked about the planning review of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor. We accept the key recommendations in the main and our response to both the review and the subsequent consultation has just been published. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, highlighted the European Union and the prudential borrowing regime. We agree that that regime has proved an effective control on council borrowing, but that is really all I can say. Most particularly, the noble Lord, Lord Tope, referred to housing for older people. I know that a number of very influential reports have been issued recently. The National Planning Policy Framework requires local authorities to plan for a mix of housing based on demographic trends, and that includes people of different ages. The reports that have been issued recently are being taken into account. The Government have announced a housing care and support fund of up to £350 million to promote more specialist housing.
There were other matters that I do not think I can cover by name in my reply, although I hope I have covered them by topic. I am just about to go over time. Again, I thank noble Lords for this extremely interesting debate, and I hope that I have managed to convince them that the Government are fully aware of the problems and are investing large sums of money to try to bring about change to that situation, with our policies and our commitment to finance.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, I thank all Members of the House who have contributed to the debate. It has been characterised by contributions made on the basis of knowledge and experience. I thought that it was a particularly well informed debate, and I hope that it has added to the thinking about and understanding of the housing difficulties that we face. I do not want to take time in mentioning individual colleagues. That would not be appropriate in what should be a very short contribution at the end of a debate.
I will just say this: the tone of the debate has been utterly reasonable, and the Minister has been utterly reasonable in the way that she has sounded. I always feel that the harder the policy is to defend, the more reasonable the Minister you put forward to defend it, and the Government have chosen just the right Minister on this occasion. I felt that, with one of two minor exceptions, everyone who spoke agreed. All of us, even the Minister, agreed on the difficulties and the problems. The Minister also put forward some solutions but they were very small solutions, couched in the most moderate and reasonable language—almost persuasive but not quite.
We face a serious housing crisis, and the Government have a bit of a policy for each bit of the housing difficulty, but the trouble is that they are not going to make enough difference. My fear is that in two or three years’ time we will be having a similar debate with the same absolutely charming and reasonable contribution from the Minister and will not be any further forward. I fear that the Government have a policy for this, but there is not enough of it and it does not have enough impetus, commitment or money.
I hope I have not added too discordant a note to what has been a very even-tempered debate. I thank the Minister for her reasonable way of putting it over. All I would say is this: if I were in her position—it sounds arrogant of me—I would go back to the department and say, “Go through this debate. There must be more we can do”.
Motion agreed.
Global Migration and Mobility (EUC Report)
(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Hannay of Chiswick
That this House takes note of the report of the European Union Committee, The EU’s Global Approach to Migration and Mobility (8th Report, Session 2012-13, HL Paper 91).
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, the report of the European Union Committee, The EU’s Global Approach to Migration and Mobility, otherwise known as “the GAMM”, which is how I shall refer to it during this debate, was published as long ago as 18 December 2012. It would be normal to deplore the long delay in bringing this report forward for debate and, indeed, it is deplorable as a general proposition, but in this case the overall context of the public discussion of migration issues has changed so much in the intervening period that one could regard a debate now as of greater topicality and value that it would have been earlier. I am bringing the report to your Lordships’ House for debate in my capacity as chair of the EU Sub-Committee on Home Affairs, Health and Education which conducted the inquiry.
The debates taking place in this country and across Europe on illegal and legal immigration, the global competition for talent and access to social welfare and other benefits by migrants are, rather like migration itself, not new. They have been taking place for decades, if not centuries, and Europe in the early 21st century is no exception. But recently, the tone has sharpened and there is a risk that a rational and measured discussion of complex issues will be drowned out by cries of populist outrage riding on the back of the stress caused by recession.
Our report highlighted that the EU today is home to approximately 23% of the world’s estimated 214 million international migrants. This makes it second only to North America as a destination region. Within the EU, however, there is a mixed picture. More than 75% of non-EU nationals living in the EU are in one of the five largest member states: Germany, Spain, Italy, France and the UK. What proportion of these migration flows is made up of illegal migrants is, of course, difficult to determine. Estimates in 2008 placed the figure at between 1.9 million and 3.8 million in the EU 27.
The catalyst for our report was the publication by the European Commission in September 2011 of a communication setting out the EU’s general approach to migration and mobility in the period ahead and proposing four pillars of activity: on legal migration; on irregular migration; on asylum; and on development. Our report emphasised that the EU has limited legal competence to act in this area, although many of the decisions continue to be the responsibility of member states. The treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam and Lisbon and the incorporation of the border-control-free Schengen area into the EU framework support this shared responsibility. None of the witnesses—I emphasise “none”—nor our report itself pressed for any change in that division of responsibility. The committee’s view was that, given the current and prospective demographic challenges facing Europe—and they are really quite severe—EU member states, particularly those with skills shortages, need to be flexible in the operation of legal migration from third countries in order to secure economic growth and competitiveness. For the EU, or for any of its member states, to lock itself into a long-term, restrictive posture on immigration could be a costly error.
I emphasise the role of the member states here because, as I said a moment ago and as the report says, they,
“should continue to have the right to choose the number of migrants from third countries they wish to admit to their labour markets, depending on their needs”.
Transfer of responsibility to the EU of the management of the scale of legal migration is beyond any political horizon I can envisage. It was interesting that neither the Commission officials from whom the committee took evidence nor the members of the relevant committee of the European Parliament had a different view. This conclusion is borne out by the current varied situation, with very high levels of unemployment in some member states, but signs of skills shortages in the EU’s largest economy, Germany.
Perhaps the biggest preoccupation in the UK is with stopping irregular migrants from reaching these shores in the first place. Although the UK, as an island nation, has opted out of the Schengen area and many aspects of its legislation, it plays an active role in the work of FRONTEX, the EU’s external borders agency, and in the development of EUROSUR, a networked border surveillance system. Our report concluded that it is in the UK’s national interest that these operations are efficient, effective and well resourced; that was, in fact, the conclusion of the national security strategy that the coalition Government brought forward shortly after they took office.
It is important to note that the majority of irregular migrants in the EU actually enter with authorisation—that is to say, they enter legally—and they then overstay their visas. With this in mind, EU member states should consider, we believe, a more balanced and comprehensive approach to overstayers, including the selective encouragement of legal migration channels. One example is that of EU mobility partnerships. These are voluntary agreements where the third countries in question discourage irregular migration and improve their border controls in exchange for EU financial and technical assistance. Another example is that of EU readmission agreements. These are also voluntary agreements where third countries help to facilitate the orderly return of irregular migrants in exchange for assistance and possibly better visa facilitation arrangements for their nationals. In the committee’s view, it is regrettable that the Government, in their response to our recommendation that they should opt in to all these EU readmission agreements, stated that they prefer to,
“weigh up the benefits of participation in each EU Readmission Agreement (EURA)”,
on a case-by-case basis. However, if bilateral nations were ever to weaken between the UK and a particular third country, and thus to undermine any bilateral readmission arrangements we might have, an EU readmission agreement could well provide a useful safety net. We therefore call on the Minister to consider joining the EU readmission agreements with Belarus and Armenia and all the subsequent ones that may be negotiated—there are quite a few under negotiation now.
The GAMM is not just about stopping economic migrants from coming to the EU; it is also about improving the economies in the source countries of migration. As one of the witnesses in our inquiry put it, “It is about buying more Tunisian tomatoes”; and reducing the EU’s trade barriers against non-EU countries could assist the EU’s aims in the migration context. Furthermore, the EU could use the GAMM as a framework to carry out projects and programmes to promote development and mitigate the effects of the brain drain on countries of origin—for example, by facilitating the cheaper, more secure and more rapid transfer of remittances from the diaspora, by supporting microfinance schemes and by engaging with and assisting diasporas to transfer skills to their country of origin. To carry out the activities that I have just mentioned, our report suggested that a more integrated approach to migration should be adopted, both at national and at EU levels. Migration policy cannot and should not be the sole responsibility of an interior ministry, or the Home Secretary in this country, or of the Commission’s Directorate-General for Home Affairs. A more holistic approach is highly desirable.
Previous and current British Governments have chosen to exercise the British opt-out with regard to the majority of both legal and irregular migration measures brought forward by the Commission in recent years. So while the GAMM had its genesis in a UK initiative, frequently forgotten, and enjoyed a lot of early support, the UK’s participation is looking increasingly patchy. For example, the UK participated in the first phase of measures to create a Common European Asylum System, but participated in only two of the five measures proposed in the second phase. We believe that this partial participation risks undermining the UK’s influence in shaping these important areas of EU policy without bringing any commensurate benefit.
Looking to the future, our report called for a full and detailed evaluation of the GAMM’s different pillars and the EU funding instruments that support their objectives as part of any continuing effort. Over time, the committee believes that the GAMM will need to adopt a more focused approach, concentrating on the EU’s geographical and strategic priorities, as well as focusing on a smaller number of key objectives and instruments, which have a sound evidence base. We believe Turkey to be one of these priorities, especially in terms of tackling irregular migration, but also alongside more general engagement in tackling terrorism, transnational organised crime and promoting judicial co-operation on civil and criminal matters. The recent signs of a cautious thaw in the EU’s often troubled relationship with Turkey could provide a mutually beneficial opportunity to make progress.
The final chapter of our GAMM report focused on a specifically UK policy choice, the Government’s inclusion of international students in their current policy objective of reducing net migration to the UK to the tens of thousands per year. My committee was one of the five Select Committees of this House and the other place that have now concluded that that policy is mistaken and whose chairs wrote to the Prime Minister last January to argue that this has created the perception that overseas students are not welcome in the UK and risks serious damage to what is, after all, one of the UK’s most valuable and successful invisible exports. The latest figures from Universities UK for 2011-12 admissions validate that concern, with sharp drops in figures from undergraduates coming from one of Britain’s main higher education markets, the Indian sub-continent, and a major overall drop in postgraduate overseas enrolments, one of the most lucrative features of our industry. I could not put it better than it was put in a letter recently written by an academic leader in this country, Professor Malcolm Grant of UCL, who said:
“The flow of overseas students and highly talented staff has been the life blood of British universities, which are one of the great success stories still of the UK, and that is a matter which we all hope to be able to continue to foster”.
Whatever the statistical rights and wrongs of treating university students as economic migrants, and this debate is not principally about statistics, it surely makes no sense for the Government to be handicapping what should be a major growth industry for us—and it is globally a rapidly expanding market—in comparison with our main competitors. Again, the latest figures point towards us losing market share to our major competitors, in particular to the US. The Government frequently remind us that we are competing in a global race. Why then are they entering the British education sector for the sack race?
The committee’s report contains a number of other pertinent conclusions and recommendations. We hope that the Government will continue to give appropriate consideration to those recommendations. We look forward to comparing our report’s findings with those of the Government’s review of the balance of competences regarding asylum and immigration, for which a call for evidence was published by the Home Office recently. The Home Office at the same time published a call for evidence on the free movement of persons. While this concerns migration from within rather than from outside the EU, it is touched upon in our GAMM report, which notes the ending of transitional controls on migration from Romania and Bulgaria at the end of this year. We concluded that the free movement of persons is fundamental to the structure of the EU and an integral part of the single market. We also concluded that it would be neither desirable nor feasible to seek to revise its terms. However, we did support efforts by the Government to tackle benefit fraud as long as they comply with our obligations under the treaties. I note that, in part, the immigration Bill announced in the gracious Speech will aim to achieve this. No doubt this House will scrutinise that Bill carefully in due course.
I conclude with one plea to the Government. In drawing up the detail of that immigration Bill, particular care surely needs to be taken to not accentuate further the chilling effects on the recruitment of university students. This cannot be an empty risk, frankly, since the sort of issues that will be addressed—access to health provision and housing—are just the ones that concern students, researchers, academic staff and their parents in the countries of origin. I hope that the Government will take very careful steps to avoid any further damage to the higher education sector. I beg to move.
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, on his speech and on the comprehensive nature of his report. I will refer to only one subject, which he almost finished on: international students and net migration targets, which is covered in the last section of the report, particularly the recommendations and the government response.
In doing so, I will follow up on the debate we had in this House on 31 January this year, when the subject was well covered. We had 26 speakers, nearly all with very impressive backgrounds, in one way or another, in the university world. All were unanimously critical of the impact of the Government’s immigration and visa policies on non-EU students. As the noble Lord has just said, there have been five Select Committees of both Houses which have published their criticisms, along the same lines, and proposed changes. There is a debate in the other place this afternoon, of which I was able to watch a bit: all the messages seemed to be the same.
My starting point is the widespread understanding, fully recognised in government, of the huge benefits that international students bring to this country. I will touch on them very briefly, because they were well covered in our earlier debate. The economic benefits are not only the contribution to the wider economy, but to local economies; I understand that the Mayor of London has estimated that the economic benefit is £2.5 billion in London alone. There are various local estimates in other university towns. In particular, there are benefits to universities from the fees and other income brought in at a time when university finances are under considerable pressure. There is the major export contribution that this sector brings to this country. It gives our own campuses an international dimension for our own students. The soft power aspect was well delineated in the previous debate. Particularly important is the aspect that non-EU students bring to the postgraduate sector, to which the noble Lord has just referred.
While, overall, 12% of students enrolled in UK universities in 2011-12 came from outside the EU, in that year the figure rises to an astonishing 49% for postgraduate courses in engineering, mathematics and computer science, and 31% in postgraduate courses in technology. Indeed, in that year, 27% of postgraduate students in these subjects were non-EU students. A diminution in the flow of students to these courses would have a serious effect on many of them.
I briefly stress all these points because the public concern about immigration has nothing to do with postgraduate students coming to this country, contributing to our economy and spreading the good word about the United Kingdom when they leave. I do not believe that the public are concerned about that at all. In so far as they were concerned about some abuses in the university and further education sector, that has rightly been well tackled by the Government.
Our debates reflected two particular concerns: the impact of some of the actions and procedures of the United Kingdom Border Agency and the increased impact of the Government’s net migration target on international student enrolments—the particular point that this report refers to. I make the point about enrolment, rather than applications, because the signs are particularly worrying concerning enrolments.
From this flow the two points I ask my noble friend to respond to this afternoon. He very kindly arranged for a small delegation of those who spoke in the debate to meet him and Mark Harper, the Minister of State for Immigration, in mid-April. It was a most helpful and constructive meeting. The Minister outlined to us the initiatives he was taking with David Willetts on the many complaints about UKBA—complaints which were well indicated in the debate we had in January—and we discussed in particular the resources of UKBA, the feedback it gives to universities and training.
First, will my noble friend give us an update this afternoon on progress on these issues? Undoubtedly the Government are now trying to be in the right place on these issues, and are making quite an impact on the perceptions of those from overseas in relation to applications to UK universities. Secondly, and much less satisfactorily, we stress that the step that would make the greatest difference to overseas perceptions would be to remove non-EU students from the net migration targets in exactly the way recommended by the report we are discussing this afternoon. This is where the Government’s response to the Select Committee’s report is so disappointing. Effectively, their response is that,
“we welcome all genuine students, coming to attend any university or college that meets our requirements”.
In December, the Home Secretary affirmed that,
“we will place no cap on the number of genuine students coming from across the world to study in this country”.
That is a very clear quote, but the Government’s response sidesteps the recommendation and simply makes a bland statement instead.
That pledge that there will not be a cap is not the perception in many countries. There are clear signs from many of them that, as the noble Lord has said, at a time when other countries, such as the United States, Germany, Australia, Canada and many others, are very actively promoting and expanding their intake of such students, we risk having a diminishing share of that growing market because of the overall net migration target. The total number of non-EU students has dropped for the first time in 10 years. Overall, demand is sustained by rapid growth in the number of Chinese students, but numbers from elsewhere are declining. One small indication has just come to my attention of the sort of way in which actions by the Government, or by UKBA, affect very considerably the perceptions of individual countries. This relates to Brazil.
The Brazilian Government’s student exchange scheme, Science Without Borders, fully funds high-achieving Brazilian undergraduate and postgraduate students to study at the best universities around the world, including in the UK. A group of 2,143 Brazilian students who wanted to come to the UK to study as part of this scheme have been prevented from doing so by inflexible visa rules. These are high-achieving students who want to study undergraduate STEM courses, but they needed to improve their English before starting their degrees. The current rules prevent their staying in the UK after completing an English language course. These students would have been required to return to Brazil and reapply for a new visa before starting their degree courses. As a result of these rules, and the refusal of the Home Office to change them, 1,100 of those students are now going to the United States and 600 to Australia, which are happy to let them come to study English and then stay for their degree course. Of the original 2,143 students, approximately 43 have applied to come to the UK for September, and approximately 400 to come to the UK in March 2014. The value to the UK of the entire cohort was about £66 million, but as well as lost earnings there is probably a perception that the UK is not worth applying to among many who otherwise could have been very successfully received here. I do not expect a response this afternoon from my noble friend, but I urge him to look into this case.
Why, therefore, despite the Government’s pledges, is a different perception growing in so many non-EU countries? Is it perhaps because the Government have not tackled head-on, or responded to, the well argued and well publicised case that in order to meet their target of reducing net migration to the tens of thousands by 2015, somehow a reduction in non-EU student numbers of 87,600 between 2012 and 2015 will be required? My noble friend did not respond to that point in the debate in January. The Government did not respond to it in their response to this Select Committee report. They bypassed it and somewhat dodged it.
I hope that we can have at least a more direct and well argued response to this charge. I suspect that there is no such response, in which case it is clear that we have a self-inflicted wound that is harming our universities, despite our good intentions of “no annual limit on numbers” and so on. It would be much better to make it clear that there is no annual limit by accepting the Select Committee’s recommendation. The Government’s statement that there is no cap on the number of students coming from across the world to study in this country will be widely believed and totally credible if the Select Committee’s recommendation is accepted.
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen
My Lords, this is one of the best reports that I have read since I have been in your Lordships’ House. It is very good indeed. I read it with great interest, and I enjoyed its width of comments. It is also an excellent example of the work that the House does, which is not always recognised outside the Chamber.
I apologise that I, too, will speak in particular on issues around international students. I support the view of the report, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that the Government’s policy creates the perception that overseas students are not welcome in the UK. This harms both the quality of the UK’s higher education sector, as the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, pointed out, and its ability to compete in an increasingly competitive global market for international students, especially when we are competing with other English-speaking countries.
The demand for graduates is growing, and many of our economy’s promising areas rely on the research output, ideas and highly skilled workforce generated by universities. However, the UK invests only 1.3% of GDP in universities, compared with the OECD average of 1.6%. Canada, Japan, Korea, Norway and Ireland all have a higher proportion of 35 to 34 year-olds with a higher educational qualification than the UK.
The Government’s current proposals will result in reducing income for our universities from tuition fees. They would also damage the international influence of the UK in the longer term. As a Peer living in the east of England, on the coast near Colchester, and as a graduate of Essex University, which is just one of the highly regarded universities in the region, with a worldwide reputation for excellence both in teaching and research, I agree with the report that the Government’s target of reducing net migration to the tens of thousands per annum by 2015 can be achieved only by making considerable cuts to the numbers of international students coming to the UK. Again, the noble Lord gave us much more information about that.
Changes to visa policy to date have already impacted on the number of international students hoping to study in the UK. Some universities have experienced problems with numbers. I am pleased to say that so far Essex University has not. However, across the sector, visa applications for study are flat and evidence suggests that the UK is already becoming less attractive as a destination for study. Universities UK has called on the Government to remove university-sponsored international students from net migration targets. I support that call, as do others in the Chamber.
In most cases, international students are temporary, not permanent, migrants, with strong visa compliance. They are enormously important to UK universities. One of my most pleasant memories of my university days was the joy of the international campus. Essex has always had a very good Latin American campus. This is where my love of Latin America began and it remains with me today, partly because of the friendships forged on that international campus.
Students are extremely important to the economy, especially the local one, and to the towns and cities in which they study. A recent report on the University of Exeter estimated that GDP generated by international students directly supported 2,480 jobs in the city of Exeter. Overall, universities create more than 670,000 jobs, directly and indirectly, and are often major local employers, as is the case in Colchester. Our universities are efficient and deliver an impressive return on public investment. In recent years they have adjusted to significant changes in funding and absorbed real-terms cuts in research funding of approximately £600 million. They are responsible for 13.8% of the most highly cited papers worldwide, despite having just 4% of the world’s researchers.
Additionally, the economy benefits from the extra tax and social contributions made by graduates and the £3.3 billion of income the sector attracts from business and other users. Our higher education system is world class but competitor countries are investing more than we are in the sector. Strong universities create jobs, attract investment and are vital to the future competitiveness of the UK. Here I place on record my thanks to the vice-chancellor of Essex University, who has provided me with some of the statistics.
Finally, speaking as a proud grandmother, whose eldest granddaughter, Rachel, is in her first year as a university student, I strongly believe that this is a sector in which the Government should invest, building on our position of strength to ensure the future competitiveness of the UK. I urge the Government to take the report’s recommendations on international students very seriously indeed.
Lord Sharkey
My Lords, I would like to begin by expressing my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for the way that he guided our committee through our inquiry into the EU’s global approach to migration and mobility, and to the clerks who so ably assisted us all.
I would also like, in a general way, to thank the Government for their response to our report, which contained 43 conclusions and recommendations. The Government agreed with most of these. It was disappointing, however, that they did not agree with our recommendation to opt in to the family reunification directive, simply asserting that it is not in the UK’s interest to do so. It would be very helpful if, in the Minister’s response today, he were able to enlarge on this and deal with the moral as well as the practical issues that will inevitably arise from the differences in family admissions policies across the member states.
It was the committee’s view that when it came to the integration of migrants, language learning had an important role to play. The Government agreed with this and went on to say that,
“the Government believes that communities, businesses and voluntary bodies should be enabled to lead integration in their local area. The Localism Act introduces new rights for communities to take greater control in their local areas, for example by challenging local authorities to contract out services where they feel they could do a better job of running them”.
This suggests three questions: what services do the Government have in mind; do they know what local authorities are actually doing; and what plans have they got to assess the use of the Localism Act in promoting migrant integration? I hope that the Minister can address some of these questions now or later.
Our report also recommended that member states and the EU consider a more balanced and comprehensive approach to those who overstay their visas, including by the selective encouragement of legal migration channels, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, mentioned. The Government simply did not respond to this recommendation, although I know from the Home Secretary’s comments yesterday that the Government are very much aware of the problem of overstaying. Can the Minister give his views on the approach to handling this problem, both in terms of those migrants here now and those who will arrive in the future? I was sorry that the Government did not agree with our recommendation that they participate in all EU readmission agreements, but I was glad that they agree that there should be continued evaluation of existing agreements.
In any discussion of mobility and migration and the opportunities and problems that they may present, it and is vital to have accurate and reliable data and robust evaluations of programs and tools. The committee considered that the current iteration of the GAMM has not effectively evaluated the EU’s progress to date in achieving its objectives, and we called for more rigour and for full and detailed evaluations. The Government agreed with this and agreed, I think, that there is much work to be done.
The mobility partnerships, again mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, illustrate the point. These partnerships are set to become the main tools for the EU’s external migration policies. Yet, so far, only one of these partnerships has been evaluated and that evaluation was close to worthless. In my long experience of evaluation reports, I have rarely seen one that was so inadequate, so amateur and so directly misleading. The evaluation’s conclusion that the Moldova mobility partnership had been “a clear success” was not supported by the evidence adduced and was directly contradicted by the evaluation’s account of its own shortcomings. The general sloppiness, lack of rigour and misleading conclusions regarding the Moldova mobility partnership evaluation matter. The EU proposes these partnerships as the key mobility and migration tools. If they are to be the key tools, they should not be progressed without a grown-up evaluation framework being built in to them from the very start. The Government surely have a role to play here, if only to prevent a further waste of taxpayers’ money.
However, none of the Government’s disagreements or qualifications in their response to the committee’s report is as disappointing as their response to the recommendations on international students and net migration targets. Noble Lords have already spoken eloquently and forcefully on this matter and I am sure we will hear more from other speakers. The Government rejected the recommendation that international students be removed from the public policy implications of the Government’s policy of reducing net migration. The reason given in their response is that the UK will continue to comply with the international definition of net migration. That is not in itself an obviously compelling reason for anything at all. It is also a very odd response.
The Government say that there is no cap on qualified student numbers. Their response states that,
“any student with the right qualifications, sufficient funds and a good level of English can come with no annual limit on numbers”.
Unless there is some implication that I have not spotted in the phrase “no annual limit”, this is a liberal and sensible approach. After all, the Government acknowledge that they are committed to the sustainable growth of a sector in which the UK excels and which is worth huge sums to the UK economy. In other words, we want this sector to grow. That means attracting more suitably qualified students. It also means maintaining—or, even better, growing—our market share.
The Government are not trying to cut the numbers of qualified students coming here, so why on earth include their numbers in the gross number of migrants presented for policy purposes? What possible harm could it do to exclude them? The answer is surely that it would do no harm at all. However, it is easy to see that leaving the situation as it is may well be causing us current and future damage, and that is because, as the committee’s report says, it helps to create the perception that overseas students are not welcome in the UK.
Noble Lords have already referred to the briefing produced yesterday by Universities UK. The Higher Education Statistics Agency data in this briefing show a decline in non-EU postgraduate entry to our universities and only a small increase in undergraduate entry. The data also show that demand from India has absolutely plummeted. Universities UK concludes that,
“in the context of a rapidly growing and highly competitive international market, the low overall growth over recent years is likely to equate to a loss of market share”,
which means, of course, a loss of revenue for the UK, but it also means a loss of future cultural influence and soft power. Much of this is caused by problems of perception: the perception that the UK does not welcome foreign students and that the UK is making itself deliberately difficult for students to get into. Unless we change that perception, things will get worse.
With the very dramatic fall in Indian students coming to the UK, the numbers are increasingly propped up by the Chinese. However, there are signs that the Chinese numbers may themselves soon decline. A recent survey of Chinese high school students revealed that over the past 12 months only 60% of those high school students who had previously preferred the UK as a destination for university still did so. I repeat: only 60%.
We need to reverse the perception of the UK as unwelcoming to students. We need to reflect the truth of “no cap”. We need to make entry easier and for it to be seen to be easier. We can make a good start in doing this and send out a powerful signal by removing students from the public policy implications of the Government’s policy of reducing net migration. The Government’s refusal so far to do this looks much more like stubbornness than it looks like principle or even electoral calculation, and I hope that the Minister may feel able to ask his colleagues to reconsider.
The Earl of Sandwich
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said earlier that the most sympathetic Ministers seemed to get the difficult briefs. I am not sure that that was true of the Labour Government but it may be true of this Minister.
I congratulate my noble friend and the committee on the report, and particularly on Chapter 6 on the development impact because I think that that is the most difficult area of all. However, I, too, shall concentrate today on students, which although last on the list of contents is perhaps the most urgent topic and therefore justifies a second or third debate.
As we have heard, the Government are sticking to their view that they must tighten their grip on immigration but that genuine students continue to be welcome. I shall examine that paradoxical statement again in a moment, but I recommend the Government’s response to the Commons BIS Committee report, which is a good summary of the position. It says:
“The Government’s success in reducing abuse of student visas … means that we can now look forward to a period of policy stability on student migration policy”.
A policy of stability may be welcome as a statement of intent but it hardly corresponds to the situation at present and it shows that wishful thinking is being permanently built into the Government’s plans.
In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, I think that Universities UK may have lost the narrow technical argument on definition, because the international UN definition has to apply. Nevertheless, it should go on making the case that students are not migrants but visitors, and that they must, as far as UK policy is concerned, be treated entirely separately. The words of the committee on this are:
“We recommend the removal of international students from the public policy implications of the Government’s policy of reducing net migration”.
Our image overseas as a favoured destination—remembering that we start with a huge advantage as the home of the English language—has already taken a blow and we have to redress the balance. Relatively few students become overstayers and the number who reside permanently is negligible, perhaps 1%. I urge the Government, yet again, to recognise the importance of foreign students to our future international diplomacy as well as to a business which has been valued at at least £8 billion.
As the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, has said, one area of disagreement is the discrepancy between the HESA figures for applicants versus those for entrants. The Government cannot claim that the numbers of non-EU students are going up because while the HESA figures show an overall increase, Universities UK has shown that these are inflated by new entrants from previous years. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has also made that point.
At another level, there is the difference between universities on the one hand and colleges and language schools on the other. UKBA understandably came heavily down on the colleges because most bogus students came from that sector but, having eliminated the bogus colleges, they are continuing to come down on the genuine ones which have proper accreditation. A high proportion of non-UK students used to come from these colleges and this number is fast decreasing.
As the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, added, language schools are also an important sector feeding in to higher education. We want to keep those students but they are also suffering. Language students who want to pursue their courses are told to go home and reapply, which of course drives many of them elsewhere because there are plenty of welcoming arms. The Home Office must surely by now have seen the knock-on effects of its tier 4 visa policy.
The Minister already knows that I intend to raise some of these concerns with him next week. He has kindly agreed to see me in relation to the position of South London College, which has suffered no less than an 80% fall in its tier 4 recruitment in the past 18 months, including a 100% loss of all its Indian students. I mentioned in our previous debate that I am on the advisory panel of a related college in Nepal which has several links with colleges in the UK, and I am well aware of the drastic effects of visa control on applications all over the sub-continent.
After the number of Indian students fell drastically last year by 23%, the Prime Minister had to make what one might call a coalition statement during his India trip in February. Perhaps he was prompted by the Mayor of London, who regularly has strong views on this subject. He said that this country welcomes Indian students, even though on the evidence we were turning them away. I am not denying that the majority of these in the past had failed the new tests but, judging by the evidence I have, it seems that many more genuine students are being turned away.
I can understand the Fresh Start group and others raising concerns about immigration—it is a big concern—and the Prime Minister is steadily moving towards their position. The latest Conservative Party bulletin that I have seen shows how hard it is working to avoid becoming a “soft touch” among its supporters. I accept that the UK, in this as in its foreign policy, is punching above its weight because it is a net importer of migrants and we have a high number in proportion to our population. However, this must be seen as a positive and not a negative. Britain has built up an international reputation for receiving migrants. What would have happened to so many of our Nobel prize winners who came here destitute in the 1930s and since if they had been turned away, refused visas or denied benefits?
Certainly we have to reduce absolute numbers and the events in Sweden are a current warning to all of us as to what could happen in the EU. However, I repeat, we must not make students and our reputation suffer because of our immigration policy.
I said last time that colleges which had passed all the eligibility tests and had acquired the correct certificates were still being harassed, and this remains the case. The UKBA or its successor even requires them to act as agents and informers, opening files and reporting on the movements of students as though they were potential enemies of the state. The BIS Committee, Boris Johnson and many others have already made the point that current controls on student migration are hitting our exports hard, and we cannot afford to lose our status internationally when so many other countries are increasing their numbers of students. However, it is good news that the Chinese are sending more students, and it is also good that completing PhD students are being allowed to stay for up to 12 months after graduation, and that more MBA graduates will be allowed to remain. The Minister may well be able to give us more examples of how the present trend can be reversed.
I turn briefly to the committee’s other conclusions, although this is a vast subject that we cannot cover today. I agree that while the Government make obeisance to the wisdom of the EU’s global approach, the report describes it as “too diffuse” and recommends that the Government should co-operate still more closely with Schengen and some of the useful European agencies such as FRONTEX. Again, the threat of opting out, as in the European arrest warrant and the whole of the justice sector, seems to be an important part of the Conservative Party’s solution to its internal troubles. One wonders what price it ultimately will pay within the coalition. Many people would like to see more genuine participation in Europe and less of what the Government call “exercising influence on decisions” of other EU members. We cannot get away with that attitude. I urge the Government to pay more attention, for example, to implementing as well as signing and ratifying the trafficking and domestic worker conventions.
On the EU resettlement programme and the gateway programmes, I recall that the UK was one of the slowest to co-operate with UNHCR’s excellent resettlement work. Can the Minister tell us what the current position is? What is the annual UK resettlement quota, and will the Government use one of the UN or EU programmes to accommodate the 600 Afghan interpreters, to whom we owe such a lot?
The Lord Bishop of Derby
My Lords, I, too, welcome the opportunity to debate this report and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and his colleagues for their work and insights. I want to shift the focus away from education a little and draw on my local knowledge in Derby and Derbyshire to look at what paragraph 71 of the report refers to as the “valuable role” played by “voluntary and private sector” in what it calls “civil society” in helping to formulate and implement policies of integration. As we know from other debates in the House this week, integration is the great issue of our time. It needs careful work both face to face and on the ground as well as a policy framework. For migration, the issue of integration is the great litmus test.
The Government state in their response that,
“the Government believes that communities, businesses and voluntary bodies should be enabled to lead integration in their local area”.
I welcome that, and I want to give an example of what I am involved in in Derby, with voluntary groups and civil society trying to lead integration—some of the good things and some of the problems we face—and ask whether the report might point in directions that could be helpful to us. With colleagues, I have been involved in initiating something we call “Growing Communities” in Derby. As the provision of welfare and local authority investment in care systems and the social fabric of our city have been withdrawn through the cuts, I have convened a group of faith leaders, voluntary groups and the local authority to see how citizens can work together to grow communities in the city, using our various resources, initiative and ingenuity. As the report recognises, we bring to this good local knowledge, face-to-face contacts and a realistic assessment of what might be done so that integration is acted out between real people.
Let me give two examples of things we are doing that are particularly affected by migration into our city and our need to handle it creatively. Tomorrow, we will hold in Derby Cathedral a food summit, as part of the preparations for the G8 meeting. This is not just about the IF campaign and global hunger, it is about hunger in our own city. One of the things that will happen at this food summit is the launch of an integrated and co-ordinated approach to food banks. Over the past year, there has been an enormous increase in the demand for them. This is not just from the normal homeless people on the street, this is from families who, by the end of the week, do not have enough money to buy food to feed the children. Many of these families are from migrant communities. We are trying to create a co-ordinated response around food banks from voluntary and faith groups, to include a proper integration strategy, which will involve many needy migrant people.
There is a second thing that we are trying to do. We have a great influx of people from eastern Europe, especially Roma people. Their young people not only have language problems but also find it very difficult to integrate. It has been the faith groups, especially the churches, that have set up youth and evening activities and provided resources and space for young people, first to get integrated among themselves as Roma and then to begin to connect with others in the community—local, face-to-face and on-the-spot integration.
I could give lots of other examples but those are just two: hungry people—migrants who have no work and no resources—and young people who are finding it very hard to not just seek security in their own little grouping. However, what we are trying to do is essentially reactive. There is no clear frame for us. We are trying to work with the local authority, and it is trying to work with us, but grants are given and they end after the year. There is a lot of confusion. A lot of good work is done and then does not bear the fruit that it might.
All this is exacerbated by what I am afraid is a frighteningly buoyant and developing industry in our city, which the report mentions, that of human trafficking. Sadly, we were in the papers for a case last year. There is an enormous demand for prostitution, not just in our city but in many cities. This is an issue for government as well as for those on the ground. This is not a nice, free sexual market for consenting adults, it is women and girls being traded in an oppressive, abusive and wicked way. Just in the past two weeks, my colleagues on the ground have told me that a busload of women have come down from Manchester. They are not put on the streets anymore, they go into brothels, because it is below the radar. After a few months, they will probably be bussed on somewhere else. It is seriously and highly organised crime, which is abusing migrant people and women—most of them brought in illegally, I suspect—as part of a terrible industry that many migrants get drawn into, including as pimps and organisers of this kind of work. That creates an atmosphere in cities such as Derby and others that makes it very hard for us in those areas trying to create integration and good healthy relationships. It creates a dark side, especially to the night-time economy.
Through our efforts in civil society, we can deal with the surface issues, such as people who are hungry or young people on the streets plainly needing to be better integrated. However, we cannot deal with the highly organised professional international crime of trafficking, with rogue landlords or with the pressures on schools that come and go. Roma people, especially, keep moving and you cannot make very good calculations. There needs to be a bigger frame for those kind of things. Although civil society is a very neat phrase in the report, in my experience on the ground, civil society means really a ragbag of resources struggling just to make some little impression on integrating legal and illegal migrants into a human kind of society. Civil society has to be recognised as needing to be involved in a much richer and more detailed framework locally. We are trying to work on that, but Governments must take a lead in requiring local authorities to work at these frames and tap the resources of people, money and energy that are there to deal with some of these problems.
I want to end by asking the Minister about a couple of things. First, do the Government have any further thoughts about access to public funds for vulnerable people such as trafficked women and those who are perhaps below the radar of official migration? It is very hard to draw these girls and women out through our support groups if no public funding is available. Our resources are very limited.
Secondly, in my experience of working with these oppressed women, the police and border agencies tend to crack down on them, the victims, because they can get hold of them, and not on the pimps and perpetrators. We have to be much more energetic in trying to crack down on the people who organise this terrible crime.
Lastly, there is a macro issue, which we see in Rochdale and all over the place, about prostitution becoming a highly organised and profitable industry for many people, and migrants being drawn into that and trafficked into it across Europe. Certainly, the great majority of the people drawn into trafficking in our city in the past two or three years are from eastern Europe. We have to work across the European Union on this, and we must take a bolder stand and not just allow a kind of free market in this kind of behaviour from which so many people suffer and are oppressed.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, it is always a privilege to follow Members of the Bishops’ Bench and I agree very much with what the right reverend Prelate said about human trafficking—the dark industry.
I was impressed by the number of speakers who put their names down for this debate. It says a lot, both for the concern of Members of your Lordships’ House about this issue and the value of the report, which I was fascinated to read. I join with others in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and the committee for producing a fascinating report.
I realise that to say that we live in a global world is tautologous, but it is certainly an internationally connected world and needs more than a national approach. This is acknowledged both by the report, which says:
“The UK’s migration policy … should not be formulated and implemented in a vacuum”,
and by the Government, who say that,
“Member States’ needs differ greatly, so a ‘one size fits all’ approach to migration and growth would be counter-productive”.
Of course, each state has its own characteristics and needs. There are differing needs even within the UK. We are used to hearing explanations for our migration policy that point to highly skilled people who are so desirable for our country and our economy, but I always think that we should be grateful for the not necessarily technical skills that people from different cultures bring to our country, in particular from those cultures that are very good at caring. My goodness, our society needs people who are good at caring as well as the high-tech end of social care and medicine.
Having spent a lot of my political life in London, I tend to look at a lot of what we do from a London perspective. Yesterday at a lunch I sat next to a retired Permanent Secretary, who was reminiscing that when he was working as a civil servant, London’s population was 8 million. The population now is 8 million, approximately the same as it was in 1961, and indeed in 1931, but as he recalled, when the population was falling in the 1960s and 1970s, we thought the world was going to come to an end; now we think the world might come to an end because it is getting too big.
Of course, concerns about London reflect concerns about students. I am not surprised that other Members of your Lordships’ House have chosen to focus on this issue. The university sector is not short of champions here. As we know, the Government tell us in their response that the anti-abuse reforms have been targeted at the non-university sector.
Concerns about reputation—about our country not being welcoming, as my noble friend Lord Sharkey said, and the feeling that this country does not really want to do business with some other countries—has a knock-on. There are economic effects as well as the reputational ones and effects on business in the widest sense. That involves more than just universities. Perception is very important, and the quicker that the Government can recover ground in this area—the perception about this is unhappy and uncomfortable—the better.
The confidence of our business community is affected by the difficulties in this area to do with process. The concerns among people to whom I talk about immigration are often as much about process as they are about policy. One hears examples such as, “My clients decided not even to bother to try to get visas for particular people to come to work in this country. They are just going straight to Frankfurt”. I think that my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones will speak about tourist visas. That is one concern that the London business community has drawn to my attention and, no doubt, to that of other noble Lords. It mentions that the UK has improved its position in its overall competitiveness as a tourist destination from seventh to fifth in the recent WEF rankings, but we have dropped 24 places in the competitiveness of our visa requirements. We have slipped from 22nd to 46th. London First comments that competitor destinations are doing better at forging relations with new high-value tourism markets, such as China, with Paris, for example, attracting between five and eight times as many Chinese visitors as London.
It is clear to me that a lot of policy is driven by the effectiveness or otherwise—the competence, if you like—of the process, particularly the entry clearance process. It is of course very difficult to suggest that discretion should be applied to immigration applications. I am not going anywhere near that, but the ability to assess information is very important and does not seem to be in oversupply in the entry clearance system. I have no idea of the result when one is faced with an irritating tinkly version of Vivaldi when trying to get through on the telephone to follow up visa inquiries, but I know of considerable frustration that it is simply impossible to talk to a real person.
As I said, process as well as policy is important to build and retain trust among more than the business community, to which I have referred. I was interested that one of the four thematic priorities of the GAMM is organizing and facilitating—I stress the word facilitating—legal migration and mobility. Obviously, that begs the question of what is legal, but, like my noble friend, I took particular note of the paragraphs on family reunification. There was the recommendation that,
“there could be problems with a situation that admits spouses and children more readily to one Member State than another, considering that, once admitted they may eventually acquire the right to freedom of movement throughout the EU. We repeat our view that the Government should seek to opt-in to the Family Reunification Directive”.
British citizens who marry non-EEA nationals and then find that they cannot live in their own country with their partner and children as a family unit or be with elderly parents in the UK because they cannot meet the requirements—which are among the toughest in Europe—regard this, to use a mild term, as unfair. It is puzzling to them. It will not have crossed their minds that this might be a problem. The sense of hurt, betrayal, anger and so on is not reduced when they find that the UK is out of line with the rest of the EU.
The Minister is aware of a piece of work with which I have been concerned. We will be launching our report about family migration on Monday, but I want in this context to share one small piece of evidence received by the group which looked at this. The submission went as follows:
“I served in the British Army for 9 and a half years, have a First Class Honours degree and my husband is also degree educated and currently earning more than I do [overseas] … I am antagonised by the fact that citizens of the EEA face none of these obstacles when bringing their non-EEA spouse to the UK, yet I, a British citizen and former member of the British Army, am not entitled to the same rights in my own country”.
Several noble Lords remarked on integration being of the highest importance. I was impressed that my noble friend Lord Sharkey was able to ask questions about the paragraph in the Government’s response on that because, frankly, I found it quite difficult to understand. As for localisation, yes, local organisations have an important role to play, but that did not seem to be an answer to the point. The right reverend Prelate talked about a ragbag of resources in this context. I would prefer that we find a toolbox, not a set of leftovers, to address it. I do not think that he meant to suggest that. Like him, however, I regard this as an overwhelmingly important issue.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
My Lords, I begin by congratulating the members of Sub-Committee F on this very interesting and challenging report. Until a year ago, I had the privilege of being a member of the Sub-Committee so should have known that a committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and with Michael Torrance as his clerk would produce a report that was rigorous, evidence-based and clear. I found myself applauding much of it, particularly the actions that could be taken to help speed up the economic development and increase the political stability of source countries. Yet as I read the report, an element of doubt crept into my mind and it is that element which forms the basis of my remarks today.
I want to focus on three statements in the report. First, there is the second to last paragraph of the summary, which reads, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, pointed out:
“The EU’s Single Market is predicated on the free movement of its own citizens between Member States. This freedom is fundamental to the United Kingdom’s continued membership of the EU”.
Secondly, there is the conclusion in paragraph 46, which, while encouraging migration to meet specific skills shortages, goes on:
“However, such an approach is not a panacea, and should form part of a comprehensive approach which also tackles the development of skills among the existing workforce”.
Thirdly and finally, there is the sentence in paragraph 2 which reads:
“Population density in the United Kingdom, which is roughly twice that of Germany and four times that of France, means that migration policy is a matter of keen political debate”.
“Keen political debate” is an appropriately measured phrase. In my remarks today I am seeking to be similarly measured because this is an issue that, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said in his introduction, can all too easily be hijacked by groups for their own purposes, some of which are not altogether pleasant.
Here are a couple of statistics. Today the population of the United Kingdom is just over 63 million. For the record, England, with a population density of 383 people per square kilometre, has just overtaken the Netherlands to be the most densely populated country in Europe, leaving aside city states such as Monaco. England is now the sixth most densely populated country in the world after Bangladesh, Taiwan, South Korea, Lebanon and Rwanda.
I am afraid that that is just the beginning of the challenge that we face. As I said, our population is just over 63 million, but the mid-range projections from our Office for National Statistics suggest that the UK’s population will reach 70 million by 2027, 15 years from now. That is an increase of 7 million people. What do 7 million people look like? The city of Manchester has 500,000 people in it, so think 14 Manchesters. The larger Manchester conurbation, including Bolton, Bury, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford and Wigan, has a population of just over 2 million. So, to house this increase in population we may have to build the equivalent of three Greater Manchesters by 2027. This increase in population will surely not be spread evenly across the country. The bulk of the increase may well take place in the south-east, where we may have to build two of those three Greater Manchesters to which I am referring. It will be something of challenge for future government Ministers to explain all this, not least to those who live in shires and leafy suburbs.
At this point, some noble Lords may be tempted to reach for the exemplar of Thomas Malthus, who in the late 18th century said that at some date in the future a global famine would take us because of a rising population. Such noble Lords are inclined to say that Malthus has so far been proved wrong, and we should not worry about these issues now. However, we are not talking about Malthus or about some date in the future but about the output of a respected government agency giving predictions for only 15 years from now, well within the lifetime of people in your Lordships’ House today.
Should we worry about this? I have already referred to our present population density of 383 people per square kilometre. Bangladesh has about 1,400 people per square kilometre, 3.5 or four times as dense, so we can certainly fit the people in—but at what cost to the quality of life? Sir John Sulston, who recently chaired a Royal Society inquiry on people and the planet, said that our target should not be to cram as many people as possible on to the planet. He went on to say:
“We have to look at what will allow humankind to flourish. We want to aim for a high quality of life and not just to scrape along”.
What gives this issue a particular edge in the context of this debate on the EU is the unique position of the United Kingdom in this regard. The report rightly points out that France, with 102 people per square kilometre, is about 25% as densely populated as we are while Germany, with 226 people per square kilometre, is about two-thirds as densely populated. No less importantly, though, both those countries and Italy have falling populations. Germany’s population today is 83 million, compared with our 63 million. On present German trends, that will fall to between 70 million and 74 million by mid-century. At some point in the 2030s, the UK’s population will overtake Germany’s, and we will become the most populous country in Europe.
The question that I have to pose today is this: if these current trends persist, can we continue to allow the completely untrammelled movement of labour within the EU without imposing increasing and unwelcome strains on our civil society? The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby touched on some of the first signs of how this issue may pan out. At the heart of this debate, which is faced by all EU member states, is the moral significance attached to a particular birthplace. In other words, does a country or any aspect of it belong to its inhabitants, no matter what their colour or creed? Do we follow what has been called the “cruise liner” theory of the nation, in which people come together temporarily and have no ongoing relationship, or should the fact of being born in Britain—the accident, if you prefer to use that phrase—automatically entitle you to your country’s collective heritage? These are deep philosophical waters and beyond the terms of our debate today, but they none the less provide the background against which this report has to be considered.
On a more practical level, it is perhaps worth reflecting on why the UK’s population might be growing so fast. Some may say that it is about the social security system, which is universal and means-tested, as opposed to being primarily contributory as on the continent. It may be, but I rather think that is only a minor feature. I think there are two more potent forces at work. The first is the point made by my noble friend Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market about the ability to learn English. For better or worse, English has become the world’s lingua franca and, in particular, it has become the lingua franca of technology, so how better to fit yourself for the modern world than by coming to the UK to learn English?
The second is the anecdotal issue of EU citizens coming quite legally to this country to undertake work that our fellow citizens appear unwilling to do. Every Member of your Lordships’ House will have anecdotes about this and the challenges it presents: this is mine. I have a house on the Shropshire-Herefordshire border. Every year, thousands of eastern European citizens perfectly legally come to pick fruit, yet there are many unemployed people in the city of Hereford and in Herefordshire. The special and specific challenge that we face is to see what we can do in Hereford and elsewhere to encourage people to take responsibility for their financial future and so to give them the self-respect that will follow. That is why I so strongly support the conclusion of paragraph 46 that immigration can be no panacea. If it is seen as one, we risk creating a disaffected, disengaged, sullen minority of what the late Lord Dahrendorf christened the underclass. If this is true in this country, how much more pertinent must it be on the continent in Spain, Greece, Portugal, Italy and even France, where unemployment among young people seems to range between 20% and 45%?
To conclude, I congratulate Sub-Committee F on addressing this issue. The challenges of absolute population size, age balance, equality of access to economic opportunity and the extent to which the UK and the EU open their doors to all comers are great. As my noble friend on the Front Bench prepares his reply, he will no doubt be thinking with relief that this all goes well beyond his brief and pass swiftly on. That is part of the problem. These challenges affect every aspect of government and every government department, but they are the responsibility of no government department. David Goodhart, the director of the think tank Demos and previously a senior correspondent for the Financial Times, has recently published a fascinating book on this topic called The British Dream. He describes himself as a public schoolboy leftie with an instinctive sympathy for those seeking a better life for themselves, but he none the less concludes that Britain has had too much immigration too quickly, that its economic benefits have been oversold, that it has demoralised the indigenous working-class population and, most importantly, that it threatens to undermine the contract between the generations and the consensus on which our entire welfare state rests. He is writing about Britain, but looking at his book and hearing on the news about other EU countries, one cannot help but be drawn to the read-across from the situation here to that elsewhere on the continent.
These remarks may seem uncompromising, unwelcome and unfriendly, and no doubt some noble Lords may wish to criticise me for making them, but Dean Acheson, the US Secretary of State, once famously remarked that in a democracy policies do not trickle down, they well up. This is an issue that is welling up fast.
Lord Judd
My Lords, first, I want to say—and I know I speak for others on the committee—that once again it has been a real privilege to work on this report under the leadership and chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. It really has been a good experience to be there with him on that committee. The second thing I want to say is that I passionately believe that we in this House, whenever we discuss the issues of immigration, should never miss an opportunity to say thank you to all those immigrants who have made such a fine, positive and desperately important contribution to our life in Britain and to the life we take for granted. It is true that all of us, every day, experience it in our families and with our friends when using the health service and it is true every day when we take our trains up and down the country. We know that we have received tremendous benefits in this country from immigration. That is why so many of us are ashamed of the myopic, cheap opportunism—that comes from educated people who should know better—of trying to seize negative emotion and work up passions, where we should be emphasising the importance of reason and analysis.
I found the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, very powerful, very analytical and very challenging. When he was speaking, I could not help reflecting on paragraph 13 of our report, in which we state:
“There are approximately 214 million international migrants worldwide”.
So we are faced not only with the pressures within our own society but with the pressures of migration for the global community as a whole. That is why it is crucial for those of us in this House, who have the space in this House to look at things in perspective, always to emphasise that, if ever there was an issue that requires international collaboration and international policies to deal with the huge issues that arise from it, it is the issue of migration. We simply cannot solve the issues of migration as a nation on our own. European co-operation is vital. The noble Lord was right to say that we should never consider these matters in our own country without looking at the experiences of others in Europe. But, of course, it is in the management of the issue that co-operation is so important.
That is why the European debate going on in Britain at the moment is very significant. To me, it flies in the face of reason to envisage in any way a future in which somehow we will do better on these issues if we operate as an island on our own, offshore from the mainland of Europe. We need to work with those in Europe if we are to be effective in handling the situation. Of course, it is important not just in Europe but worldwide as well.
That brings me to the issue of higher education, which has been fully debated today. As we debated it, I could not help feeling that if the sub-committee was looking for allies in the House, it could not have had a better ally than the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market. That was an amazingly penetrating analysis and speech, and I just hope that his noble friends on the Front Bench have listened to every word of it and will recognise its significance.
There is one other point that I want to make, and I declare an interest because I am involved on a voluntary basis in three universities in this country—the London School of Economics, Lancaster and Newcastle. We talk about the economic consequences of policy towards overseas students, for the universities themselves immediately and the long-term consequences for the country as a whole. These are very central issues for our debate. There is one other point that needs to be emphasised. The first reality of existence for all of us on planet earth is that we are totally interdependent, and how history—if history is there to judge us—will judge political leaders of the time in which we live is on the success or failure that we make of handling that reality of international interdependence. I simply do not understand how you can approach education, let alone higher education, without that international reality being central to the deliberation in virtually every discipline being studied.
It is absolutely crucial that in our fine universities—we have some very fine universities in this country—there is a real, living community of scholars, not just from these islands but from the world as a whole. It is going to be the interplay of cultural experience and of different perspectives that will help students to become educated, as distinct from trained, and to understand the nature of the world in which they live and the scale of the issues that confront them. I know that when I was an undergraduate I was learning all the time from people who came from very different backgrounds from my own. I greatly appreciated that. It is true of Britain, but it is much truer of the world as a whole. What we do not emphasise enough in our considerations about higher education is that the quality of our universities is related to the presence of an international community central to their activities. Whenever that is diminished, the quality of education itself is being diminished. It is disturbing that current policies are leading to a decline in the number of students wanting to come to study here, because it is perceived that it is not a welcoming place and it is not a good place to spend a lot of time trying to get to when you can get elsewhere. That point has to be taken very seriously.
There are a couple of other points in the report on which I want to dwell for a moment. They have been referred to in the debate. One is the issue of integration. I was very impressed by what the right reverend Prelate said about his work and experiences in Derby. It is clear that civil society is crucial to making a success of integration, but not just civil society in terms of the NGOs, although they are very important, but even in the more established parts of civil society, if that is not a contradiction in terms. The chambers of commerce have a very important part to play and trade unions have an absolutely crucial part to play in the issue of integration. But then the NGOs themselves are vital. As someone who has spent a great deal of my life in NGOs, I worry that we are slipping into an era in which they are seen as an extension of public administration to deliver policy. I want good quality public service and I am sure, therefore, that NGOs will have an important contribution to make, but that is to miss the point. In a vibrant society, NGOs are there to contribute to the debate. They are there to learn from their engagement and experience and to bring to the quality of the public debate the depth of their experience and what they are discovering every day, on the front line, with real people. I do not get the feeling, under any Government in recent times, that the views, attitudes and experience of the NGOs have been central to the development of policy on integration in immigration matters. There is a lot of work to be done on that.
It is also important to realise that, if we are talking about successful integration, we must face up to the pressures on many of our relatively deprived communities which find themselves grappling with the largest elements of immigration and the movement of people. This is why we must make sure that, in areas where immigration is more concentrated than others, the schooling, hospitals, public services, housing and employment are given real priority. It is in these areas that the frustrations build up and the idiots who demean the whole quality of public debate start deploying their opportunism.
On the opportunism, I say to all our political leaders, please realise that you are never going to buy off that kind of opportunism. It has to be challenged and confronted. One has to talk about the values which are central to our society and in which we believe, and about why, with rational analysis, we must make a success of this interdependence about which I am talking and the inevitable movement of people. How can you talk about free and open markets if there is not to be the movement of people? It is a fundamental contradiction if you say you have a free and open market but people cannot move about to follow the investment. However, we know that it is not currently possible for that to happen, so we have issues. Theoretical and ideological solutions like open and free markets will not provide a total answer. We must have pragmatism at work, based upon real experience, real issues and how we handle them.
I have been heartened by the seriousness of this debate today. Again, I offer warmest thanks to our chair for having led us in preparing the report. I hope that we may have many opportunities to go on discussing this issue, but not just as a sort of Greek chorus wringing our hands about it but as part of a process that is making sure that we are doing the things that are necessary to meet the challenges.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, I was quite encouraged by the direction of government policy on migration last week. I remember landing a couple of years ago at Stansted Airport; I was coming from somewhere in Europe—I cannot remember where. It was soon after the UK Border Agency was formed. I came into the immigration hall, which had black and white signs saying, “You are about to cross the border of the UK”. It was menacing. I was afraid. I was very afraid. It was as if we were there, whether we were British citizens, visitors or—heaven forbid—“irregular” migrants trying to come in, and we were going to be found out and that would be it.
Last week, I came back from Estonia, a country that is suffering from net migration of much of its population. However, we would not want to stop that because, during its Soviet occupation, the one thing Estonia’s citizens could never do was to get out. Their great freedom is that they now have mobility. I came back to Gatwick Airport and, as I came into the passport hall, there was a pull-up sign that said, “Welcome, international students”. The only trouble was that I walked past it without noticing and my wife, who is also interested in these affairs, had to draw it to my attention.
I congratulate the Minister. We have at least changed the tone of how we enter the UK, and are on occasions welcomed rather than seen as a threat, even coming back to our own homes, families and houses.
Like many fellow noble Lords, I thought this was a very good report, mostly because it is very factual—it is a myth-buster—and brings out a number of issues that are important to understand. A couple of them were what we think of as problems we have with migration; the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, was absolutely right in certain areas of his analysis. However, if we think in terms of refugees and that Pakistan has 1.7 million within its borders, that may put some things into perspective.
We must understand that most irregular migration is the result of overstays rather than people coming in clandestinely in boats, aeroplanes or in similar sorts of ways. However, I was quite astounded by the figure of what the report calls the dependency ratio, which effectively is the number of retired people in relation to the workforce, and by the fact that in 2008 that was some 25%—hardly anything at all—but by 2060 it will have risen to 53%, as predicted in the UK and elsewhere. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, that perhaps one problem is that without migration we would be building old people’s homes but with absolutely no one to help us in our dotage and old age. The way in which that dependency ratio threatens our future and that of the next generation is a real issue.
I will concentrate on a couple of areas. First, something that is often forgotten but, I was delighted to see, is mentioned in the report, is the fact that we have two travel-free areas within the European Union—and indeed they creep outside it. One of them, of course, is Schengen, but we also have the common travel area which includes not only the UK and the Republic of Ireland but the islands which are not part of the EU—although we should remember that Schengen includes a number of non-EU states as well.
Something I had not thought about before, but which would be very sensible in terms of future government policy, would be to try to align the policies of those two travel areas far more carefully. Whether you are a tourist, a visitor, in business, a business manager or director, a high roller or whatever, you have to go through two visa procedures to visit a country in the Schengen area and the UK and the Republic of Ireland. That is understandable, but if those visa procedures were similar or pretty well the same, it would solve many issues.
The other issue was on the readmissions agreements and treaties with third countries. Again, we as the United Kingdom—whether we just give the impression that we do it or whether as I believe we actually do it—try to cut off our nose to spite our face to prove something in terms of being distinctly non-core EU, while prejudicing and harming our own national interests.
I will speak very briefly on the issue that I feel is most important from an ethical point of view. That issue of the reunification of families is in the report. I, like my noble friend Lady Hamwee, have received a certain amount of correspondence about British citizens who are unable to do three major things these days. First, they are unable to bring their proper spouse—not one from an arranged marriage—to join them in the UK. Secondly, UK citizens living abroad who have been married abroad are unable to come back to their home country, and the rest of their wider family are unable to enjoy their marriage together because the partner, who may be non-EEA, cannot come back. Then there is even the not unusual situation where the spouse outside the UK, without UK or EEA citizenship, is the person who primarily looks after the children, who are probably British citizens as well, who are then also unable to come to the UK.
Is it not part of our fundamental British DNA that, as regards a real marriage, under no circumstances should the state be able to determine that a husband and wife—or a wife and wife, or husband and husband, or wherever we get to with the other Bill—should not be able to live together in family life? That to me is a fundamental, English—probably British, but certainly English—principle of life that we must protect, yet we are now failing to do so. That problem will get worse, as I know from my own extended family. In the next generation, some members of my extended family are married to Singaporeans, while others live and work in Argentina. They travel abroad and often meet their future spouses abroad, and these multinational families and marriages will happen more and more. What we are doing through our migration policy is saying to them, “I am sorry, you cannot live together in your country of birth”. All sorts of people are able to do that, but the thresholds are far more difficult than often we believe.
My ancestors migrated from, I think, Denmark around the first millennium into what is now the county of Suffolk. I do not know whether my ancestor was invited or whether he made his way across the North Sea uninvited and unwelcome. However, I surely know that when he or she married a spouse of their choice, they were able to reside in Suffolk for however long they wanted to, and consequently I was able to migrate to the Celtic nation of Cornwall, where there are no such divisions. This is absolutely fundamental to the DNA and principles of our national life.
Lord Bew
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Hannay for securing this important debate. If he will forgive me, I, like other noble Lords, will concentrate on one facet of the GAMM report: the section that deals with international students and net migration targets, covered by paragraphs 181 to 188 of the report. I am absolutely in agreement with the broad spirit of these paragraphs. It is vital that our universities should retain their open stance and international aspect, and that they remain competitive and attractive on a world scale.
When I was a student in Cambridge in 1968, the most influential essay among left-wing students was an article in the New Left Review by Perry Anderson called Components of the National Culture. The article demonstrated magnificently that a high percentage of the leading figures responsible for the crucial high-water marks and components of our culture, to whom we owe an enormous debt, were penniless migrants from Europe during a very troubled century. That essay was recently reprinted in a book called English Questions. It is a reminder that what we often think of as an English question is constructed from much more complex and heterogeneous roots.
I absolutely stand by the broad spirit of the GAAM report. It is not just a matter of soft power. Higher education contributed £8 billion to the UK economy in 2009. Paragraph 231 of the report suggests, in effect, that students should be excluded from the Government’s net migration targets. To no one’s great surprise, the reply of the Minister, Mark Harper, to my noble friend Lord Boswell, chair of the EU Committee, was less than enthusiastic. He concluded:
“The net migration statistics are produced by the Independent Office for National Statistics, and they have historically included students. The UK will continue to comply with the international definition of net migration, which covers all those coming for more than 12 months”—
including students—
“regardless of any intention to leave”.
I think that the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, used the word “dodgy” to describe the Government’s reply. Indeed, there is a certain evasiveness about it. Technically, it is a perfectly logical reply, which faces up to one of the great objections of the university sector—that we do know that the vast majority of people who come to this country to study courses leave once they have completed those courses. As I say, technically, there is nothing wrong with the reply, but I fully accept that it is slightly evasive. It is abstracted from what we all know to be the tensions in British politics around these questions of immigration, particularly this year.
There is another aspect of this issue that we in the university sector have to take into account. The media exposure to bogus colleges has been a crucial development in the past couple of years, whereby one saw basically a vast network of Potemkin villages revealed to the dismay, I think, of the British public. Even the university sector itself has not been immune to practices which appear to be not particularly impressive. I remind your Lordships of the Daily Telegraph sting in Peking about a year ago, which seemed to show that one of our most respected business schools was offering in China diluted qualifications for entry. All these things have an impact. Within the university sector people will say, “Actually, if you look at the qualifications of people coming in, they are on average higher than those of more locally based candidates”. One could say that the Chinese sting is unrepresentative, but I speak in your Lordships’ House on a day when we await the “Panorama” coverage of a sting of Members of this House. Once these things come out in this way, it is not enough to say, “We all know that this is unrepresentative and not typical”. The truth of the matter is that a public interest is established to which we have to respond more decisively than by saying that these stings are unrepresentative and give an unfair picture of the overall pattern in this area.
Although I think that the Government’s response is evasive in a sense, there are reasons why any Government would have concerns in this area. Those of us who like to speak in this House and argue on behalf of the university sector have to take those reasons into account. However, in paragraph 188, the GAMM report goes on to say something else of considerable importance. It says:
“If the Government genuinely favour an increase in bona fide students from outside the EU they should make this clearer”.
I could not agree more. In this respect, I am slightly more confident than the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, was about the Prime Minister’s remarks in India when he addressed this question very directly. A lot of the statistics in this area are a little unclear. The exact extent to which students are discouraged by the fact that they are included in net migration figures is not clear. There seems to be a slight falling off of enthusiasm to come to the United Kingdom, but it is pretty small. What is not in doubt is the very significant drop of 24% in the number of those coming from India. This was pointed out by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. That is the one figure which is not in dispute. There are reasons for it but it is a serious drop and something which has to be addressed. It is a very regrettable phenomenon. That is why it was important that the Prime Minister made it clear in India that genuine prospective international students are welcome and that there is no cap on numbers. He also made the very important point that there are opportunities to work for a period during and after study and that the UK wants and values international students. It was very important that he spoke in that way in India.
The truth is that the vast majority of students from outside this country will make their decisions not on the basis of whether students are included in the government target but on the quality of the course. All the evidence shows that. This country is second in the world in terms of its attractiveness to international students. There is no reason to believe that that will be challenged but we have to be vigilant. That is why I was particularly disturbed by the example of the Brazilian students mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, towards the end of his speech. That was a disturbing case that did not indicate the open attitude that we should have to able and well qualified students.
I return to GAMM report, which states:
“If the Government genuinely favour an increase in bona fide students from outside the EU they should make this clearer and ensure that all policy instruments support this objective”.
I ask the Minister to give the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, and myself a little comfort on this matter.
Viscount Bridgeman
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for initiating this debate. It is a privilege to serve on his committee. I also pay tribute to Michael Torrance and Paul Dowling, who have given us magnificent support.
As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said at the beginning of his speech, migration will be always with us. Anyone who doubts this—they will not include any Member of your Lordships’ House taking part in this debate—should be familiar with a study by Felipe Gonzalez, a former Spanish Prime Minister, who forecast that by 2050 the European labour force would decline by 68 million and that this gap would need to be filled by the immigration of some 100 million people, including dependants. This statistic should be read alongside my noble friend Lord Hodgson’s comments about the impact of population growth in the United Kingdom.
Immigration into the EU is not out of control, as some commentators would have us believe. In 2008, for instance, legal migrants into the EU numbered 3.8 million. In the same period, those emigrating numbered 2.3 million. More tellingly, between 2006 and 2007, immigration decreased by 6% while emigration increased by 13%. It is another popular myth that illegal immigration forms a large part of total immigration into the EU—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and others. In fact, the largest proportion of illegal immigration is by individuals who outstay their visa entitlement. Nevertheless, irregular immigration cannot be ignored. Over the past few years, considerable progress has been made in tightening the EU’s borders. The so-called weak point has in recent years been the land border between Greece and Turkey. However, following intensive diplomatic contact with Turkey, this has been brought largely under control. However, I visited Greece recently and was made aware of considerable illegal landings along Greece’s long coastline. This problem is of course shared with Italy. In Greece, which has so many problems of its own, there are distressing scenes at Patras, where immigrants are violently and desperately seeking to get out of the country.
What, then, is the way forward? The report emphasises that the control of immigration from third countries should continue to be the responsibility of individual member states. However, as the report states that,
“a coordinated approach by the EU and its Member States to deal with the external dimension of migration is not only desirable but also imperative”,
and goes on to refer to the four pillars of the GAMM—legal migration, irregular migration, asylum and development. The report also highlights the need for the European Union to reach out to third countries to enable both sides to work towards a consensus on numbers and skills of immigrants from those countries.
The establishment of mobility partnerships—the agreement between the EU and individual third countries—is a constructive first step in that direction. We must, however, recognise that existing mobility partnerships are not at present with major third countries. These partnerships are an evolving process, and much valuable work can be done with looser, more informal forms of co-operation. These should be developed with important third countries, leading on to more formal agreements. My noble friend Lord Sharkey gave us an account of the evaluation process, and I hope that it is not too frivolous to say that the department might cut its teeth on the evaluation of the smaller countries before moving on to the more important ones, which I hope in the not too distant future will include Turkey. Indeed, the report makes important recommendations that Turkey and Pakistan, as major corridors for irregular migration into the EU, should be priorities for future mobility partnerships.
Perhaps I may just say a few words about readmission agreements. These are negotiated between the EU and third countries to facilitate the return to their country of origin persons who are illegal immigrants. The UK Government have not participated in all such agreements, and it is the recommendation of the committee, ably reinforced by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that the UK will opt in to as many of these as possible at a later stage. The opt-in with Turkey is particularly important, and it is seriously to be hoped that the current unrest in Turkey will not prejudice the effectiveness of the EU’s current relations with Turkey regarding migration.
The island geographies of the United Kingdom and Ireland put them apart from mainland Europe, and their absence from the Schengen agreement reflects this—a point made by my noble friend Lord Teverson. However, we must not lose sight of the important common practical benefits that we enjoy through membership of the EU, and here I particularly mention those relating to law and order. The European arrest warrant and Europol have produced results which I suggest to your Lordships are not fully appreciated in this country, particularly by those advocating unconditional withdrawal from the European Union.
Europol’s database is of huge benefit in fighting international crime, while under the European arrest warrant the speed with which international criminals can now be arrested and extradited is also of great benefit to this country. I shall give two examples. It took 10 years to extradite from the United Kingdom a man wanted by French police in connection with the Paris metro bombings, while in the past few weeks Andrew Moran, a notorious escapee from justice in the UK, was arrested in Spain, immediate extradition proceedings were instituted, and the extradition has been postponed only because Moran faces criminal charges in Spain. Therefore, these aspects of law and order are of huge value to the United Kingdom. I understand that both are subject to negotiation between the Commission and member states. Your Lordships may be aware that Sub-Committee F is currently engaged in examining the implications of the opt-out provisions available to the UK under the treaty of Lisbon. Therefore, and I would welcome the Minister’s assurance of the absolute need to keep the law and order provisions under the Lisbon treaty, in so far as they affect the United Kingdom, substantially in their present form.
Much has been said about student visas and I would just add a point about the competitiveness of higher education in the UK. It is faced by increasing competition not only from English-speaking third countries, such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the United States, but from other EU member states, where an increasing number of universities are offering courses in English at prices significantly undercutting their counterparts in the UK. I should not like to give the impression that on reading the excellent report from Universities UK one should go straight to the visuals, but there is a significant graph produced by ICEF in that document which shows that, in a survey by ICEF education agents rating countries as attractive, in 2008 the UK was top at 71%, followed by the United States at 68%. By 2012, only four years later, these percentages were 73% for the United States and 64% for the United Kingdom, with Canada, incidentally, showing the fastest growth, from 49% to a position exactly matching the UK’s of 64%.
The sharp fall in the satisfaction rating of the United Kingdom’s higher education bodies should be a cause of no little concern to the Government. I would welcome an assurance from the Minister that, whether or not students are included in the net migration figures, no bar will be placed on appropriately qualified students to study in the United Kingdom. My noble friend Lord MacGregor referred to no cap and this must mean actions, not words, and it must be clear. If this means an increasing commitment in time and effort by those universities in the UK that are defined as “highly trusted sponsors”, so be it. No effort must be spared to safeguard the outstanding reputation of the United Kingdom in higher education.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, and EU Sub-Committee F for an excellent report and strong and clear recommendations on the specific issues. I declare a past interest as an alumna of Churchill College, Cambridge; I worked at Cambridge University for 10 years and subsequently ran the Association of Universities in the East of England until I joined your Lordships’ House. Interestingly, that last organisation did an impact assessment on universities in the regional economy. It found that the contribution of international students was significant, and higher than that of domestic students, because they had to find accommodation, travel more and remain in the holidays. That is certainly a point worth noting.
Noble Lords will have gathered that I am yet another speaker who wants to focus on paragraphs 181 to 189 of the report, on international students and the net migration targets. I start by thanking the Government for the small step forward in the publication of the disaggregated numbers from the student target. However, as the report says, that does not address the heart of the problem, which is not purely statistical.
The report refers to the perception that overseas students are not welcome in the UK. This time a year ago I was talking to a professor at a highly trusted sponsor university—a member of the Russell group, not Oxbridge—who had recruited a PhD student in his speciality in biology, one of the best students, he felt, in the world. The student had complied with all the university’s requirements and he had created a financial package that included teaching within that university. For some bizarre reason, UKBA suddenly decided that that did not constitute a financial guarantee. There was then a four-month debate, during which time the professor lost that PhD student to America. The PhD’s undergraduate university has said that that is the last time it will recommend that one of its top students applies to the UK. The professor was absolutely furious. I have raised this matter in your Lordships’ House before and I know that UUK and other bodies have been chasing it. However, this is the kind of soft influence issue that is doing real damage. As we all know, you need only one bad incident in the past to change some of the technical details. The word has gone round that there is a problem.
The recruitment of international students is a highly competitive business and UK universities have the world-leading teaching and research credentials that are essential to compete in this market. This perception is beginning to have an impact. Earlier in the year, statistics showed that numbers were holding up. However, the position now being reported by universities is beginning to look worrying.
I spent the recent Whitsun Recess in France and it was evident that the French Government had realised that they had not been able to attract the best international students because all university courses are taught in French. There is therefore now a proposal that some courses should now be taught in English for at least the first year, alongside French language courses, to help France get back into this competitive market. Unsurprisingly, the Académie Francaise was outraged, but in newspapers and on TV, academics and politicians lined up to say that this market was not open to France while it failed to use English as the teaching base language for at least the first year. After all, they said, English is the lingua franca. A French academic friend told me that this move has been sparked in part by the recognition that international students are saying loud and clear that they believe that the UK does not welcome them. So a country like France, which does not automatically teach in English, is now fighting for a corner of the market.
The lesson for us is that all these other nations are jumping on the bandwagon. It is not even a matter of being content with present numbers or stability, as referred to by the Government. The worry is that this is rather like a football league table. We will plummet from the premiership down to the championship simply because other countries will suddenly start to move ahead.
A recent survey of 537 Chinese high school students revealed that over the past 12 months, only 60% of those who had previously said that they preferred the UK as a destination still do so. The reasons they gave included recent changes to the visa regulations and the weak economic outlook in the UK. This is important because China alone was responsible for the modest increase in international students in Scotland between 2010-11 and 2011-12.
The largest fall in international students is at the postgraduate level, and the timing suggests that the removal of the post-study work route may have been a significant factor, as postgraduate studies were very popular before. Staff at universities regard the closure of the tier 1 post-study work route to be the single biggest factor in reducing demand from international students. While the UK Government have highlighted that working in this country after graduation is still a possibility for students able to meet the criteria, there is real confusion regarding the new schemes because of their complexity. This has resulted in some of them being undersubscribed, despite high demand. I return to my earlier theme about perception. Whether it is true or not, if the word is going around that the schemes are not attractive, we will be shooting ourselves in the foot once again.
Postgraduate students, whether domestic or international, play a key role in research, and we ignore at our peril their contribution to science, innovation, and growth and productivity in the UK. Sir Andre Geim, the Nobel prize-winner from the University of Manchester, has said that the identification of graphene,
“would probably not have happened if I had been unable to employ great non-EU PhD students and post-docs”.
These same students have helped to contribute to the UK success in the academic ranking of world universities. In 2012 we had two in the top 10 and five in the top 50. These rankings include Nobel prize-winners, Fields prize winners, publications and so on. That is extremely significant to students when they are considering top universities to come to.
Our higher education system is a major source of our soft power and influence in the world, which help to secure economic and foreign policy objectives for the UK. For how much longer will that be the case if we remove ourselves from consideration by prospective students? The Government keep saying that they are using international figures for data aggregation. Surely in the much more mobile 21st century it is time for the UK to return to the international community and reopen the debate about whether it is appropriate to keep these figures in, especially as it is now much easier to track students as they leave university and either return home or work for a limited period.
Perhaps I may conclude by asking the Minister if he will endorse the statement made earlier today by the Immigration Minister, Mark Harper, in the debate in another place. He committed to work in partnership with our universities to continue increasing the number of international students who come to our excellent universities from around the globe. He is right, because if that is correct and if we are right that the numbers are beginning to decline, we will need to extend a strong and positive welcome, principally through the visa process, to signal that the UK is still open to international students. Welcome as pop-ups at Gatwick Airport are—it is a start—it is far too late in the process for international students who are considering coming to the UK for their education.
Lord Kakkar
My Lords, I, too, join in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, on having secured this important debate and on having led Sub-Committee F in the production of this exceedingly important report on migration.
I will confine my remarks to the dependence that we have in Europe on the migration of those professionals involved in the delivery of healthcare. In so doing, I declare my own interest as professor of surgery at University College London and a member of the General Medical Council, the regulator for medical professionals in the United Kingdom.
In our own country, it is clear that we have been absolutely dependent over the past four or five decades on the migration of skilled workers in healthcare—doctors, nurses and other healthcare professionals—to ensure the delivery of a successful National Health Service. I myself am the son of two medical practitioners who came to the United Kingdom in the 1960s to continue their own postgraduate education and were given the chance to develop their careers here, both as academics and clinical practitioners.
The ability of practitioners from other countries to come and settle in the United Kingdom before our accession to the European Union required their ability to demonstrate to the General Medical Council that they had a base of undergraduate medical education and training that justified their registration with the GMC. Similar requirements existed for nursing practitioners and others who decided to come and settle in the United Kingdom and contribute to the delivery of healthcare. Without that substantial contribution to our workforce, it is well recognised that we would not have been able to deliver a successful health service.
Many thousands of students from third countries have come, not only to the United Kingdom but to other member states in the European Union, to pursue their postgraduate education in medicine and other medical specialities. They make a tremendous contribution academically in many of the courses in which they participate. If they come for clinical training, they make a very important contribution to the delivery of healthcare to our fellow citizens. On completing their training, many of these postgraduate students will return to their own countries and go on to have substantial influence in their own healthcare systems, for example leading hospitals, leading academic institutions or developing services. They will rely on what they were able to learn during their period of training in our country to inform the decisions that they take. Those decisions will, very frequently, involve the procurement of technology, disposables or the products of our pharma industry, which are vitally important in driving exports from our country to those other nations.
We must not underestimate the vital importance that the participation of foreign medical graduates—both those who have decided to remain in our country and those who have decided to return to their own after a period of training—make to our vital life sciences industry, which is considered second only to the financial services industry in the impact it has in financial and economic terms and on the potential for growth in our country.
Recently, important questions have been raised about the requirements and, indeed, about the consistency of the requirements for registration in our country for medical practitioners and other healthcare professionals. This is a vital issue, where there is substantial opportunity for misunderstanding among the general public if they lose confidence in the consistency of registration requirements for all medical practitioners who they might come across, particularly in acute situations, when they are most vulnerable and most anxious.
At the moment, the General Medical Council is able to provide registration for all undergraduates—those graduating after receiving a primary medical qualification from any of the 32 recognised medical schools in our country. Those individuals have a right and entitlement to be registered by the GMC after completing their first year following qualification. There are about 160,000 such individuals on the GMC register at the moment.
The second category of doctors entitled to register are those who come from the European Economic Area. There are some 25,500 such individuals on the register at the moment. They must demonstrate that they have a qualification from a recognised institution in the European Union; they can then register without the General Medical Council testing their language skills or their professional competence. In general, that has worked reasonably well, although there have been incidents where language skills have been wanting and patient safety has been jeopardised. Her Majesty’s Government have agreed that under forthcoming legislation it will be possible in future for the General Medical Council to test the language skills of doctors who have qualified and who are registered in the European Economic Area if there are concerns at the time of registration, or afterwards, about their language skills—but not their other professional skills, which I still think is an area of concern.
The third category of registrants are known as international medical graduates, of which there are 67,000 on the General Medical Council register, and they come from outside the European Economic Area. They have to demonstrate to the council that their primary medical qualification is satisfactory and that the content of their postgraduate training meets requirements in the United Kingdom. The GMC is able to make very careful assessment of both their language skills and their professional skills with the PLAB examination.
However, concerns have been raised recently about this category of clinician, specifically those coming from a third nation outside the EEA who have settled in an EEA country and then choose to come and work in our country. There the situation is much more confused because it relates to enforceable community rights that exist for these individuals. They may have the right to remain in the European Economic Area but the ability of the General Medical Council to have clarity in terms of testing their language and professional skills with regard to registration if they wish to come and work in our own country is much less clear.
For those individuals from outside the European Union without an enforceable community right, the General Medical Council is still able to treat them as international medical graduates and look at both their language and professional skills. However, for those third-country nationals with an enforceable community right, where their qualification has been recognised elsewhere in the European Economic Area, that right for the General Medical Council to test language and professional skills no longer exists. For third-country nationals who have an enforceable community right but no recognition of their qualification, those individuals are still able to seek registration by the General Medical Council, and the GMC is not able to test language and professional skills.
As we have seen in this important report, the changing demographics in the European Union may require us to have to count upon larger numbers of healthcare professionals from third nations to come and work in the European Union and in our own country if our healthcare system is going to be able to continue to meet the demands of an ageing population with chronic disease. To ensure that the people of our country enjoy the confidence, at times of anxiety and vulnerability, that the medical practitioner in front of them, whoever it may be and from whatever background, has the same skills as any other doctor that they may come across, there needs to be a single and clear process for the registration of all doctors in our country and indeed in all other European nations. It will be important for all member states in the European Union to be able to satisfy these requirements for their own people, bearing in mind that the delivery of healthcare is as much a technical business as it is extremely sensitive to local culture and values.
Is the Minister in a position to provide some further information on how far discussions with European partners around the question of language and skills testing have progressed? In particular, how will the movement of individuals from third countries across European countries, and individual member states recognising their qualifications, be addressed?
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, first, I declare an interest as a member of the council of University College London and, yes, I will join the queue. My main purpose today is to speak briefly on and commend the recommendations of the committee on international students, in particular the recommendation that international students should be removed from the public policy implications of the Government’s policy, as so widely known, of reducing net migration to the tens of thousands by 2015. We now know well that higher education students really are temporary migrants. Home Office evidence shows that of those students who entered in 2006, only 1% had settled permanently by 2011. It would give us all a great deal more confidence if the e-borders system was fully up and running and if the exit checks promised by 2015 were already in place. I hope that the Minister can confirm that we are at least on target for those exit checks to be in place by 2015.
Many noble Lords have, over the past few years, asked a great many Questions relevant to international students with the aim of removing students from the Government’s net migration target. We have had debates in both Houses. In a superb speech, the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, mentioned the debate that took place in another place today. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, referred to five Select Committee reports, including a report of the Home Affairs Select Committee in 2011. We have had letters from chancellors of universities to the Prime Minister last May. We had an open letter last July from senior business people as part of a major campaign by London First. However, disappointingly, we have seen little progress or change in the Government’s thinking on the issue.
I sincerely hope, although I am not optimistic in the light of the Government’s response, that the Home Secretary will finally sit up and take notice this time. As the committee states, if the Government genuinely support an increase in bona fide students from outside the EU, they should make that clearer and ensure that all policy instruments support that objective. The committee rightly states that the current policy creates the perception that overseas students are not welcome in the UK. From a recent education agent survey, we appear to be becoming a less attractive destination in which to study. From a briefing which several of us have received from Universities UK, there are worrying signs that some of the numbers from the Higher Education Statistics Agency, particularly for postgraduate courses, seem to show a decline in non-EU students.
As many noble Lords have mentioned, we have already seen a dramatic fall in the number of Indian students coming to study in Britain—24%. That may well spread to China, with which I am extremely familiar. The Government seem to believe that they will provide an inexhaustible supply of higher educational students, but, as my noble friends Lord Sharkey and Lady Brinton said, the recent survey demonstrates that there is a growing lack of confidence there as well.
I hope that the Government are not tempted to put all their eggs in a Chinese basket. At the least, it looks as though we are suffering a fall in market share. The committee rightly believes that such a policy harms both the quality of the UK’s higher education sector and its ability to compete in an increasingly competitive global market for international students.
Noble Lords have mentioned the competitors in this field. Canada and Australia, in particular, are making concerted efforts to increase their share of the international market and, as we know, Australia has lifted certain visa restrictions and introduced a much more generous post-study work option. All in all, the 300,000 overseas students represent more than 11% of our higher education numbers. There have been various estimates of their contribution to the UK economy, but none of them seems to go below £8.5 billion. The inclusion of these students as temporary migrants in the target is not only a risk to much-needed income from tuition fees for our universities but is threatening our eighth largest export market. The Government’s response is that they insist that they welcome international students; nevertheless, they state that they will continue to include them in their figures on the grounds that they “have historically included students”. That seems a somewhat circular argument.
The sub-committee also says, rightly, that current policies risk damaging the UK’s international reputation and influence in the longer term. Educational links are a vital part of so-called soft power, as a number of noble Lords have said. The UK is currently the second most popular destination globally for students. I strongly believe that the sub-committee is entirely right in supporting the exclusion of international students from the public policy implications of the Government’s policy of reducing net migration. They should be removed from the migration reduction target. I believe that the growth in overseas student numbers has already been much less than it would have been, were it not for the withdrawal of post-study work route visas.
The Government could still learn from their European counterparts on their approach to post-study working routes in order to retain the skills and knowledge that international graduates have gained in the UK. Holland, for example, operates two processes specifically designed to retain educated foreign graduates: a residence permit for the purpose of seeking employment after graduation, and a residence permit for recently graduated highly skilled migrants. The Government, and indeed the Minister, may think that we are all a bunch of Cassandras but may I remind my noble friend that her predictions came true?
Moving briefly on to tourism, improving the tourist visa application process is absolutely vital. My noble friend Lady Hamwee mentioned our position having moved from seventh to fifth in terms of our overall competitiveness, but set against that we have to look, as she said, at the fact that we have slipped from 22nd to 46th in the competitiveness of our visa requirements. A recent report by the UK Chinese Visa Alliance revealed that the vast majority of Chinese visitors to Europe are discouraged by needing to apply for two visas—one for the UK and one for the 26 Schengen countries—and that only one Chinese visitor in 10 applies for both visas.
This is estimated to cost the UK £1.2 billion in lost revenue. I think that figure is an underestimate but it is set to rise to £3.1 biIlion by 2020, when China is forecast to be the world’s largest outbound tourism market. While the Government have tentatively begun to look at measures to streamline the UK application process in isolation, the biggest improvement would be felt by working more closely with our European counterparts to encourage more Chinese visitors to include the UK on their European tour. In this context, I very strongly agree with my noble friend Lord Teverson on the absolute imperative to work closely on the administration of the visa process together with the Schengen countries. That would make a huge difference.
The Government must be clear that the UK still wants to attract genuine students, high-spending tourists and skilled workers. A refrain from many wishing to visit the UK is that they no longer feel welcome. The Government must change course if they are to avoid deterring many of those whom we should be welcoming.
Baroness Prashar
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for introducing this debate so comprehensively. It is an absolute privilege to work on the sub-committee under his leadership, along with other colleagues who I worked with on this report. This is a very important report because it is measured and has come at a time when there is a great need for a rational debate on issues of migration—a debate which is well informed and well considered. In that sense, I hope that it will make a constructive contribution to the debate on immigration.
The difficulty of coming at this stage of the speakers list is that most of the points I wanted to make have been made. As I listened to the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, I thought, “Well, my speech is redundant”. Then I thought that there was some merit in the fact that so many of the speakers had spoken about international students and had made such strong points that it was worth repeating some of those points.
My knowledge of what is happening on the ground comes from my capacity as president of UKCISA, the United Kingdom Council for International Student Affairs, and as deputy chair of the British Council, both organisations being involved with international students.
As the Minister is aware, the question of international students has received considerable attention in both Houses and of course elsewhere. Indeed, following the previous debate in January he wrote to us and confirmed the Government’s commitment to the sustainable growth of the higher education sector. In the intervening months, however, as we have heard, not much has changed. The recommendation in the Select Committee’s report is worth dwelling on. It says that the committee recommends,
“the removal of international students from the public policy implications of the Government’s policy of reducing net migration”.
The report also says that if the Government genuinely favour an increase in bona fide students from outside the EU, they should make this clearer and ensure that all policy instruments support that objective. Unfortunately, however, not all policy instruments do so. Despite the pronouncements that the UK continues to welcome well qualified students and that there is no cap on their numbers, processes and procedures remain complex. The absence of post-study work entitlements for the vast majority puts the UK at a considerable disadvantage. While we have seen some changes, concerns remain.
One concern that has not yet been mentioned is that since April there is now an additional imposition of 100,000 video-conference interviews for students as part of the visa process, in which carefully developed, robust and objective criteria could be overruled on the basis of a subjective judgment. This is another disincentive.
We have heard a great deal about the extended and far more confusing and complex process for obtaining a student visa. This was clearly stated in a report by the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration. Furthermore, for those who are successful in reaching the UK, intrusive attendance monitoring systems have been heavily criticised and have the potential to divide cohorts on campuses between British/EU students and others. This has a detrimental impact on the student experience while they are here, and the additional requirements for students from over 40 countries to register with the police is seen by many as one more example of the UK no longer wishing to encourage even well qualified students to come to the UK.
For those who need to extend their visas, moving from one course to a higher one, the process now takes at least three months from the point of submission to the return of the passport and other documents, with extensive stories of students unable to travel home for Christmas and, in some cases, not even for Easter.
Yesterday, Universities UK drew my attention to the example of the Brazilian students that the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, referred to. That is a graphic illustration of how we have lost not only £66 million in revenue but good will. Negative perceptions mount.
We have also heard in today’s debate that the impact and consequences of these messages and complex processes is very evident. A survey of agents in 2012 by the international Agent Barometer has shown a drop of 8% in UK attractiveness as a destination for students while other countries have benefited, with New Zealand’s attractiveness increasing by 4%, Australia’s by 6% and Canada’s by 16%. As we have also heard, the Higher Education Statistics Agency has shown that the number of Indian students is down by 23%, including 28% fewer postgraduates, the number of Pakistani students is down by 13%, including 19% fewer postgraduates, while the total number of postgraduate students is down for the first time in 10 years.
Non-EU students support the provision of many key subjects, especially in science, technology and engineering, so this decline is worrying. A thriving postgraduate sector, supported by international students, is vital for ensuring that the UK remains at the forefront of international research. The Government could argue that visa applications for study at higher education institutions are up by 4.7% in the year to March 2013, but they are still lower than their peak in 2011, and they are applications rather than enrolments. More importantly, in the recent context of a rapidly growing and highly competitive international market, the low overall growth over recent years is likely to equate to a loss of market share.
The UK is becoming less attractive as a destination of study, while our competitors are making concerted efforts to increase their market share. Issues of economic benefits, international students as a source of soft power and our influence in the world have been well argued in debates on this subject in this House and elsewhere. In this context, I underline the Select Committee’s recommendation that migration policy cannot and should not be the sole concern of the Home Office and that a more integrated approach to migration should be adopted and should involve ministries such as the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Foreign Office. In his response to our report, the Minister said that that is the case, but that does not ring true when you see how different policies are pulling in different directions.
In our debate in January this year, I said that now that the Government have dealt with so-called bogus students, the time has come to move on. Does the Minister agree that we need to work with partners, such as Universities UK, the British Council, the border agency and others to make sure that we get positive messages across and begin to take some constructive steps because turning perceptions takes much longer than good stories? In his response to this debate, will the Minister tell us whether the Government will commit to support growth in the higher education sector, set clear targets for growth in international university students, remove barriers to study in the UK and review current visa arrangements?
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I am not sure how I have offended the powers that be but I speak today as the 17th of 19 speakers, and on Monday night I was the 90th of 91. It does not leave a superabundance of points to make, but I can make one without any fear—which is to thank the committee for the work that it has done. This is an unyielding subject and the report of the committee, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is extremely useful.
I must declare an interest as having for the past 10 years been chancellor of the University of Essex, and I will say a word or two about that later. My noble friend Lady Gibson of Market Rasen is a distinguished graduate of the university and referred to it. The other interest that I need to declare is that my firm, Bates Wells Braithwaite, is heavily involved in the immigration and asylum field; it has a team of lawyers who do nothing but. Long past are the days when I could—as I did over 30 years ago—dabble in immigration. It has now become an absolute forest, a jungle of regulation, law, precedents and guidance. Indeed, one of the things that I would like the Minister to contemplate is whether there is any prospect of clarifying the bureaucracy surrounding immigration. I do not for a minute underestimate the difficulties. The myriad circumstances with which the immigration and asylum laws have to contend make certain that the matter will be complicated, but, believe me, it is now extraordinarily complex. Of course, it is also extraordinarily expensive for an ordinary citizen to find out where they or incoming relatives may stand with regard to it.
I shall say a word about my noble friend Lord Hodgson’s speech. He said that he was brave. I think that he was in a way, because it is very easy to be misunderstood in talking the way that he did. I thought that some of the statistics he produced were totally germane to this subject and reminded us, if we needed reminding, that there is no more politically hypersensitive subject than immigration in the country at large. The sensitivity is to some extent built on misunderstanding, but sensitivity there is. For my own part, I tend to underestimate the consequences to some peoples and communities of the downside of immigration. We have heard of the upsides, which are great and considerable—the noble Lord, Lord Judd, with whom I always agree, made that point very forcefully—but there is a downside. When people are competing for scarce, cheap housing and for jobs, we must not underestimate the potential there for difficulty and worse. So again, I sympathise with my noble friend the Minister and his colleagues in all of this.
Education has been this afternoon’s principal theme, which is a measure of how strongly represented this Chamber is in the higher education and university world. I will make a few remarks in that regard, although I will steer well clear of the economic benefits of our universities, which have been well discussed. I hope not to repeat any statistics, but I will give a couple that have not been given. One is the striking statistic that in the Times Educational Supplement world table of universities we have three of the top 10 and seven of the top 50. That is an astonishing record when you consider that France has not even one in the top 50. Similarly, in terms of world university education, of those who study abroad, the United States has 30%, while we have 18%—although, as a proportion of the size of those two countries, we should be top of the pile. Then you have Germany with 13% and France with 11%.
I will just say a word about the cultural, or invisible, benefits of the university sector, to which virtually everybody has referred. I am proud to say that at the University of Essex we have a higher proportion of overseas students than any other university in the United Kingdom except the London School of Economics, which has the advantage of being in the middle of this great capital city. More than 130 nationalities are represented on our campus. That has been a permanent feature of the university and I am happy to say that our numbers have not fallen in the recent two years that we have been talking about particularly, although there is no complacency about that—I will say a word about that in a moment. I emphasise to the Minister—if it needs emphasising—that it really is an astonishing own goal for us to do anything that impedes incoming students.
The economic advantages are patently abundant, but I think that we underestimate the invisible advantages. The fact that we have on our campuses a disproportionate number of brilliant academics from abroad is hugely advantageous to our students and to overseas students. The fact that we have a massive enrichment of both educative and social life by having a large number of foreign students cannot be underestimated. It adds considerably to the enjoyment—the fun factor. We must never forget that fun is important in higher education. If people enjoy their universities, they go away and say, “I had a hell of a time” at wherever it was. They go back to Greece, Hong Kong or wherever they are from and say, “I had a wonderful time at the University of Essex”. That is far more important than saying that the professor of gynaecology—no, I must not say that with my good friend, the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, sitting there. We all know what I am trying to say. The impression of the life that they led, the fun that they had and the friendships that they made, is, I suggest, as important as the purely academic side of university life. So let us hang on to that and, as far as we can, enhance it.
I shall say a word, if I may, about the brain drain. There is an important section of the report on that issue. It is an extremely difficult tension to negotiate in attracting more and more students to our own shores while not damaging the countries from which they come. I wonder whether my noble friend the Minister might take away the thought that he should consult universities to think through whether we can do both things at once—that is, to have the advantage ourselves of having incoming bright, if not brilliant, students, often from extremely disadvantaged countries, and at the same time to give something back. There may be programmes as yet unformed that could do that.
Lastly, I utter a word of caution. Whatever difficulties we have faced over the past couple of years, the challenges have scarcely begun. The prospect for recruiting overseas students to our wonderful universities will get relentlessly more challenging and difficult, because the number of universities being formed in every country is growing, in some of them exponentially. In the University of Essex 20 years ago, we had a huge number of students from Greece. The primary reason was that there were few Greek universities and there are now many more, and we have many fewer students coming. That pattern will be reproduced throughout Africa, South America and the whole wide world. The universities that exist will get keener themselves on attracting more foreign students to their shores, for all the reasons we want—economic, cultural, and so on.
Then we need to face the fact, mentioned by some noble Lords, that English is being deployed even in some French universities. Can noble Lords imagine what a crisis that must be for France? Teaching in English offends every French scruple—but they are doing it, and they know why they are doing it. Every other university in the world will start to teach in English, if they are not already doing so, for the same reason. I was in Tunisia in the spring and went to the biggest business school there, which is going to open elsewhere in Africa. They are deciding to teach their African courses in English. All those things make life more difficult.
I hope that my noble friend the Minister will be sure to persuade those who need persuading that he must and we must disaggregate students from net immigration figures. It is a farce that they are a part of that figure, and everybody has said so.
If it has not already been made plain to our embassies abroad, they should have someone who really blows the trumpet for our universities. There may be a well developed programme of promotion of our universities in our embassies and consulates—but, if not, that must be done.
Lastly, more and more of our universities are going to want to open overseas campuses, partly to counteract some of the challenges to which I have just referred. If the Government are not already doing that, they should look at that, talk to the universities and, potentially, give some financial support for opening overseas campuses, which is going on fairly steadily. That would be a useful step.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, like so many other speakers, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, and his colleagues for the work they have undertaken in producing this informative and thoughtful report. Migration and mobility is an issue that sometimes arouses heat and passion and not much else. However, as one would expect, the approach of this report to the issue is calm and measured.
The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, spoke about the four pillars of the global approach to migration and mobility and stressed the significance for addressing migration of improving the economies of the source countries outside Europe. He also drew attention to the fact that most irregular migrants in Europe are visa over-stayers. The Government have given their written responses to the recommendations in the report. During the course of this debate, questions have been raised about those responses, and one response in particular, including by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, in opening the debate and introducing the report. It is of course for the Minister to respond to points made about the Government’s responses. It took the Government a couple of months to respond to the committee’s recommendations. It is a pity that it has taken just under twice that time since then to have this debate, although I noted the view of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that the delay might well be an example of every cloud having a silver lining in terms of topicality.
Our nation has benefited over a great many years from the contribution of immigrants, whether through building some of our major companies or, as has already been pointed out, sustaining our National Health Service and winning us Noble prizes. In a globalised economy, the importance of immigration will certainly not diminish, but it needs to be controlled and its impact needs to be fair for all. Diversity makes our country stronger, but we need to build common bonds, including more emphasis on speaking English and effective integration policies and approaches for communities. We need effective action to tackle exploitation of migrant workers, which also undercuts local people. That means stronger national minimum wage regulations, more enforcement with heavier penalties, and a register to tackle rogue landlords. Proper training programmes are required to help the young unemployed from the sectors that are recruiting most from abroad and should be doing more to train local people: programmes such as Care First, which the Government abolished.
We accept that the pace of migration, particularly low-skilled migration, has been too fast. We support policies to bring it down, such as stronger controls on people coming to do low-skilled jobs and action against bogus colleges. Pulling out of the Social Chapter and out of co-operation on policing and justice, as the Government appear to want to do, would, however, make it harder to manage European migration. We need proper co-operation with other European countries to make sure that migration is not abused. The new Schengen information system will share information on migrants travelling within the EU and will help to guarantee the authenticity of documents and help to identify illegal residents. So far, it seems that the Government are declining to sign up.
There is immigration that works for Britain and immigration that does not. More needs to be done to cut illegal immigration and more needs to be done, as has been said on umpteen occasions already today, to support universities recruiting international students who contribute to our economy. Legitimate higher education students should not be adversely targeted in government action to bring immigration down.
Real concerns have been expressed by parliamentary committees that government policy is putting at risk the benefits that university students bring to the economy, benefits which it is estimated run to some £8 billion with the potential to more than double in value by 2025. The concerns are that the growth in university students is being held back by government policies and the impression given out by those polices. Figures from the Higher Education Statistics Authority show that the number of non-EU first-year students at UK universities is down from 2010-2011. There is also a drop in postgraduate enrolments. One suspects that these reductions also reflect a drop in market share in this highly competitive field.
The Government’s net migration target is not targeting many of the right things. Well over 50% of the drop since 2010 comes from British citizens: more leaving the country and fewer coming home. Much of the rest is falling numbers of foreign students and entrepreneurs. Yet illegal immigration is outside the target, with fewer people stopped, more absconding, fewer deported and backlogs of information on cases not pursued. On top of that, student visitor visas have increased considerably under this Government, and the independent borders inspectorate has warned that they are open to abuse by bogus students actually coming here to work. Unlike full, tier 4 student visas, these visitor visas are not used by university students and are not counted in the net migration figures. However, I understand that they have increased by 30,000 in just two years.
Things such as illegal immigration and student visitor visas, which are excluded from the net migration figures, appear to be being overlooked by the Government as far as effective action and control are concerned even if they cause serious problems. Everything included in the net migration figures is treated the same, as the Government seek to bring the figure down, even though it is leading to a squeeze on university students to the potential detriment of Britain, and highly skilled global experts and entrepreneurs are adversely affected by the visa delays that deter or hold them back from coming—visa delays which certainly do not impede progress in bringing down the declared net migration figure. The system for legal migration needs addressing as it is subject to significant delays, including doubling visa delays and long waits for businesses, asylum seekers, spouses and families.
In its report the EU Committee says that it considers that flexibility by member states in the operation of the European labour market to legal migration from third countries, particularly in those with skills shortages, could be essential to securing economic growth and competitiveness. The report says that member states should continue to have the right to choose the number of migrants from third countries they wish to admit to their labour markets, depending on their needs. I do not think that that view will be contested, but it highlights the importance of our having fair, coherent and effective policies, processes and procedures for addressing the issues surrounding migration. Those policies, processes and procedures should not, in their application, have some continuing consequences contrary to Britain’s interests and they should address all the relevant issues, not just those aspects of migration and mobility which impact on a net migration target figure that has been set, while effectively ignoring or failing to address equally important aspects of migration and mobility which are not reflected in the net migration target figure. On the basis of those not unreasonable criteria, the Government are still some way short of where they ought to be.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, this has been an interesting afternoon—indeed, evening—spent in discussing a high-quality report. It forms another chapter in this House’s dialogue with the Government on migration policy, and if most of the paragraphs have been on international students, so be it. My honourable friend Mark Harper has been dealing with a debate on this subject in another place today. The Government are very aware of the points being made by noble Lords on the subject.
I will begin by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, both on the report and on getting the debate today. As I said, it is a high-quality report, and I congratulate all those noble Lords who participated in its production. I thank all noble Lords for the strong contributions made in today’s debates. I have spoken to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, about this, and I will, if I may, do as I did in the previous debate and give a commentary on the debate, taking points made by noble Lords and giving a proper answer. It is very difficult at the end of a debate like this to give proper consideration of all the points made. Of course, in cases where I do not have the information that noble Lords would want, I will make sure that an answer is sent to all noble Lords who participated, and a copy put in the Library. I hope that this will enable me to concentrate my words in the main on the report and on the reasons we welcome it.
There were some key insights in our debate. One important one came from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, who showed us the consequences of this policy on local communities. It is one of those important aspects that we have to bear in mind when we discuss systems and processes: that at the end of the day, policy impacts on people and on communities. It was good to hear not only of the work that is being done in his diocese but of the way in which he is aware, and has made us aware, of the problems that can arise.
I was pleased that my noble friend Lady Hamwee was able to give us a promotional trailer for her forthcoming report. I look forward to having a debate on family unification policy. It will be very helpful. Our noble friend Lord Teverson pointed to the importance of the issue.
One of the most interesting speeches came, rather out of the blue, from my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts. We have to accept that we have a consensus. We are all badged with different political beliefs and party allegiances, but I felt that my noble friend’s speech was sobering. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, referred to it as a challenging speech. It made us realise that there is no room for complacency in this area, that our policies have to be addressed to the real anxieties of our fellow citizens, and that we have to draft policy with that in mind.
I turn to the report. The EU’s renewed Global Approach to Migration and Mobility, which was the principal focus of the inquiry, was published in 2011. It provided a welcome renewal of the EU’s external migration policy framework, which was established in 2005 under the UK presidency. As my noble friend Lord Sharkey made clear, the Government welcomed many of the proposals set out in the Commission’s communication on the GAMM, including the incorporation of international protection, alongside existing priorities, in order to broaden the geographical coverage of the global approach. The intention is to ensure a more strategic and coherent approach, to work with third-party countries in the area of migration, and to enhance links to wider development and foreign policy efforts. Alongside other member states, we agreed the Council’s conclusions on the renewed global approach in May 2012.
Unlike the EU’s more general approach to migration policy, which perhaps has placed too much emphasis on legislation and on a common approach—some noble Lords supported that approach today, but it is not the Government’s position—the GAMM is centred on a framework for practical co-operation between the EU’s member states and third countries. The Government particularly welcome this focus on practical co-operation; the pragmatic approach is perhaps part of our political tradition. Alongside the GAMM’s non-binding and voluntary character is an approach that allows member states to decide how they can best contribute to joint initiatives in this area, in their own national interests and in those of the EU as a whole.
Following the Council’s agreement, this flexible, practically-oriented approach has allowed the UK to explore possibilities for working with our EU and third-country partners under the renewed GAMM, assessing whether and how we will participate in line with the UK’s broader immigration policy. The national interest is at the heart of this decision-making process and, alongside our migration objectives, the Home Office works closely with other government departments, in particular the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and DfID, to ensure that wider home affairs, security, foreign policy and development implications are given due weight in deciding when and where to participate in GAMM initiatives. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, emphasised that the responsibility for these initiatives is not just for the Home Office but is pan-government. Indeed, noble Lords have pointed to the implications of immigration policy for a number of other aspects of government policy.
Given the range of factors involved and the specific considerations with regard to any given country or region, we make these decisions on a case-by-case basis, albeit that our decisions are informed by a set of overarching principles and principally by the Government’s objectives with regard to controlling migration. Following such considerations, we have announced our intention to take part in a number of new initiatives under the GAMM. For example, the Home Secretary will tomorrow join her counterparts from a number of EU member states in signing a new EU mobility partnership with Morocco. The flexibility afforded by the GAMM has allowed us to offer to work with Morocco in the area of border management, where we feel we have useful experience to share, rather than needing to participate across the whole of the proposed partnership. This includes areas such as legal migration or the portability of social security benefits, where other EU partners are better placed to lead, or where proposed initiatives would not be in line with our national policy.
Indeed, the UK has remained a leading voice in the development and implementation of the renewed global approach. We have played a leading role in the development of the new Silk Routes Partnership, identified in the Council conclusions on the GAMM as a key strategic requirement in the EU’s work with key countries of transit and origin. At April’s ministerial conference in Istanbul, which launched the Silk Routes Partnership, my colleague the Minister of State for Immigration, Mark Harper, announced the UK’s financing of a bridging project for the new partnership, ensuring that momentum will be maintained on concrete, practically-oriented initiatives in the silk routes countries ahead of the commencement of EU funding for these projects in 2014.
However, it will not always be in the UK’s interests or, given limited resources, within our abilities, to participate in GAMM initiatives. Therefore, while we continue to maintain good working relationships with other member states and the EU institutions in this area, and while we welcome the increased capacity and added leverage provided by working alongside our EU partners, the Government will always consider whether it might be more appropriate, or more effective, to work bilaterally with third countries. For example, the Government’s policy is not to opt in automatically to EU readmission agreements, which are increasingly linked to mobility partnerships and other negotiations under the GAMM. Rather, we will weigh up the benefits of participation in each agreement, including an assessment of the impact of such decisions on wider bilateral relationships, exercising our opt-in where we believe participation will benefit the UK, or where the UK’s participation will strengthen the readmission agreement overall. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that these decisions are carefully considered. This is consistent with the UK’s case-by-case approach to the application of our JHA opt-in. We believe that this is right. The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, mentioned this issue, as did the noble Lord, Lord Teverson.
We believe that it is right to consider our relationship on a case-by-case basis. We make very few enforced returns to either Belarus or Armenia and we are happy with our existing bilateral arrangements with those two countries. That is why we are not participating collectively in that agreement.
We will have an opportunity to talk about family reunification, and my noble friend Lady Hamwee has clearly worked hard at producing her report, which will be a subject for debate. The UK did not opt into the directive because we wanted the ability to set our own family migration policy. The UK is concerned about the potential for abuse of the right to family reunification, in particular by third-country nationals. In view of that, we maintain the view that it is not in the UK’s interest to be part of the directive.
I can assure my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury, who talked about the need to make sense of regulations in this area and make the procedures as straightforward as possible, that I am the Minister for Deregulation within the Home Office and I have an extremely good and productive relationship with Mark Harper, the Minister for Immigration. We are working as one to make sure that the immigration Bill, which will be presented later in this Session of Parliament, contains measures that will make this area much more straightforward.
The noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, rightly reminded us of another subject, the contribution of migrant medical professions to the healthcare of this country. He was right to mention the debt that we owe to migrants in this country, to which a number of noble Lords alluded. That is why we do not have closed borders. We have not turned our back on the talent of the world, nor do we want to cut ourselves off from the ability to share our talent through soft diplomacy throughout the world.
Perhaps the whole debate has been dominated by international students. Scarcely a noble Lord has failed to mention them in some way or another. That board at Gatwick stating, “Welcome international students”, summed up the Government’s policy. The noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, is shaking her head. Noble Lords have asked for reassurance on what the government policy is. I am giving that policy. There is no limit on numbers. We want to work in partnership with the universities of this country to build our student population.
The whole issue of where the statistics lie is, to my mind, a red herring. The task is not about the compilation of statistics or even their interpretation. What matters is the partnership between the Government and the universities themselves, and going out there in an increasingly competitive world to get the students from which this country can prosper here to our universities. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, was honest on this point. He turned the argument towards the universities to make them aware of the need to take a positive role in this. It is not enough to wait for students to arrive. If I may say so, I sometimes wonder how much the negative talk on this issue by universities has become self-fulfilling. I wonder about the extent to which the campaign to get these statistics removed, the use of the association of student numbers as part of the immigration policy of this country, and the suggestion that the Government are seeking to reduce those numbers and that that is part of our migration policy are all false. I think that in many cases those things have added to the impression that this Government do not take a positive view of university students.
I know that Mark Harper’s commitment is genuine, and it was repeated today in the House of Commons. I share his enthusiasm for advocating international students as being of enormous importance to our universities. Yesterday, I went to a celebration in the Speaker’s residence, where it was announced that 11 new universities have been recognised by this Government. We have a valuable—if I may say so, it is incapable of being valued sufficiently—resource in our universities, and I think that we make a mistake in arguing that the way we are presenting our statistics is the reason that people are not coming to this country.
Noble Lords will know that we have a commitment to present our statistics in a consistent fashion. David Willetts has made it quite clear that student numbers are disaggregated from the net migration figures. The figures are available. We are all aware of the student numbers—we can all calculate the figures for ourselves. However, in terms of public presentation—and, if I may say so, in terms of resource allocation within this country—we need to recognise that students, as migrant numbers, in communities need resources. They need adequate provision in public services and in financial resourcing.
The possibility of the presentation of these numbers being changed has been discussed in government but I cannot offer any comfort on that. I think that we need to change the tone of the argument to one which makes it clear that this Government have no limit on numbers and that they welcome international students, and they want the universities of this country to make that absolutely clear throughout the world.
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe
Perhaps I may interrupt briefly not on a question of statistics but on another point raised by several noble Lords concerning the Brazilian high-achieving language students who were told that they would have to leave this country in order to get another visa to study in the UK. Will the Minister comment on that?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
When that point was being made, my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire was sitting next to me and he said, “My son is studying in the States and he has just had to come back to the UK to renew his visa to go back to the States for a second course there”. If I may say so, that is not unusual. However, I have a note here on the Brazilian students. I am very conscious of the hour but am very happy to reply in detail. The noble Baroness has been sitting in her place and I have been very conscious of her position, but it is perhaps a pity that she was not able to participate in the debate. I am pleased that she has come in at this late hour and I will include her in the circulation of the commentary that I make on this debate.
In conclusion, this has been a worthwhile debate but it is no use for me, as a Minister, to say things to noble Lords about how the Government are going to present immigration statistics which I cannot then follow up. I can say that international student numbers will indeed be disaggregated in the presentation of those figures. More importantly, let us turn what we know we all want to do into positive action—selling our universities around the world. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for bringing this debate to us.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, it would be invidious to mention by name any who have contributed to this valuable debate. It is late enough on a Thursday to make that an extremely unpopular thing to do and I will not do it.
I thank the Minister. I often think that in debates on this subject he resembles St Sebastian, riddled with arrows which come from all directions. However, like St Sebastian in the best Renaissance paintings, he continues to smile as the arrows go through. I was grateful to him the last time for the comprehensive letter that he wrote, and I am grateful to him for his commitment to that now.
Perhaps I may leave the debate with two or three short points on student matters. It was a little unwise of the Minister to suggest that the universities are bringing this down on themselves by making such a fuss. I do not think that the Economist is normally considered to be the mouthpiece for special interests, yet it contained an extremely powerful leader some months ago saying that the Government’s policies were completely misconceived. That paper is read all around the world and so it is not sensible to blame the universities. After all, they need to speak up to the Government if they think that a vital British interest—the health of our higher education establishment—is being damaged.
Secondly, this is an expanding world market, both in undergraduates and, above all, postgraduates. So if we are only in a holding level, which is what the statistics show—although some of them show very sharp drops—it is, frankly, nothing like good enough. We are the second in the world in this market and we have got to maintain our market share. If it is an expanding market, that means an expanding figure, and we are not getting that at the moment.
Mark Harper was very patient when we had a lengthy meeting some time back at the noble Lord’s initiative, for which I am very grateful, and I hope that the noble Lord and his colleagues will think yet again about this issue. This is not a matter of statistics. We all understand the point being made about the statistics and we are not asking the Government to change them—although I have noticed that the Government have been a little less emphatic in their support of United Nations rulings of a non-binding nature in many other fields and seem to be clutching on to this one as though they are drowning in the middle of a sea. This is a substantive problem of public policy.
We will come later this year to the immigration Bill. I repeat my plea: will the Government, when considering that Bill, be careful not to introduce measures which will cause a further chilling in the atmosphere surrounding the recruitment and enrolment of students, postgraduates and researchers?
I thank all who have participated in the debate. I would like to place on record my committee’s thanks to our special adviser, Dr James Hampshire of Sussex University, who provided us with a mass of useful work and research and from whom all the statistical material was derived.