House of Commons

Thursday 20th October 2011 Commons Chamber

Thursday 20 October 2011

The House met at half-past Ten o’clock

Prayers

Thursday 20th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Thursday 20th October 2011 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)]

1. What recent assessment he has made of the effect of subsidies for onshore wind power on the levels of energy bills for consumers; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

Before I begin, I should like to offer my apologies on behalf of the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), who is unable to attend owing to pressing engagements in Cape Town. As Minister of State with responsibility for climate change, he is deputising for me at a vital meeting in advance of this year’s United Nations framework convention on climate change negotiations so that I can be here today.

Support for onshore wind through the renewables obligation is estimated to add £5 to £6 to an average household annual electricity bill of £585 in 2011. The Government recognise the need to protect hard-pressed consumers and are committed to driving down the costs of renewables, as well as realising the economic growth and new jobs that renewables projects bring.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank the Secretary of State for his answer. He is well aware that the level of subsidy granted drives the siting of wind turbines, not their efficiency, and that this drives price, meaning that consumer bills for energy produced from these things are higher than they should be. What plans does he have to amend this subsidy regime?

[Chris Huhne]

We have today announced the latest consultation on the renewables obligation. That reduces by 10% the renewables obligation certificates available for onshore wind, reflecting the fact that there have been further technological improvements that mean that the costs of this technology are coming down. I realise that my hon. Friend has a long-standing interest in this, but I caution him, particularly given his experience in the European Parliament, to recognise that under the renewables target for 2020, which is EU law, we are committed to meeting 15% of our energy from renewable sources. Onshore wind turbines are one of the cheapest renewable sources, so the fewer onshore wind turbines we have, the more expensive renewable sources we need to have instead. That is a very important factor for him to bear in mind.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that subsidy is not just for wind power but for other forms of carbon reduction, which are incredibly important to all our constituents, not just for their energy bills but for their personal efforts to reduce carbon consumption. What is the Secretary of State’s view of the report on the front page of today’s Financial Times, which suggests that he is completely pulling the rug from underneath thousands of people up and down this country who might have taken steps to invest in solar power for their own houses and who are now finding that their investment is being completely undermined by his decisions?

[Chris Huhne]

There is no question of anybody’s investment being undermined by any of our decisions, because this Government—in this respect, I think we are no different from previous Governments—are very committed to not having retrospection in legislation and legislative changes. However, we keep all our subsidies under review. I just told the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) that we are cutting subsidies for onshore wind turbines by 10%, and that reflects what is going on in the real world. I recently visited a project run with the city council in Birmingham, where people were able to show me invoices from solar panel suppliers showing that they had managed to get a 33% reduction in the cost of solar panels in just one year. It is absolutely right that the Department goes on looking at the appropriate levels of subsidies to bring on these important technologies, and that is obviously what we will do.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

2. What progress he is making on ensuring that off-grid households have access to affordable heating fuels in the winter of 2011-12.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

12. What progress he is making on ensuring that off-grid households have access to affordable heating fuels in the winter of 2011-12.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)]

On Tuesday, the Office of Fair Trading published its study of the off-grid energy market, which found that action is needed to protect heating oil consumers in some areas. Ahead of next winter, the Department has been working with industry and consumer groups in a national campaign to encourage customers to order early and ensure they are well prepared for winter. We have also reminded terminal operators to ensure that they have sufficient salt to maintain access to their depots in the event of snow and ice over the coming winter.

[Dr Coffey]

I welcome the study published this week and the debate yesterday, when a lot of contributions were made on this matter. I encourage the Minister, though, to think about extending Ofgem’s protection to consumers so that they can all enjoy greater focus and access to the energy ombudsman.

[Charles Hendry]

As my hon. Friend will be aware, I extended an offer to her and other colleagues yesterday to meet me to talk about how we can take forward the work of the Office of Fair Trading to identify potential market abuses that still need to be dealt with, to see how the gas grid can be developed and to check that the appropriate regulation is in place.

[Julian Smith]

The OFT report this week risked letting a number of companies who behaved pretty badly last winter off the hook. Is the Minister not tempted to send some of these issues to the Competition Commission?

[Charles Hendry]

The OFT was very clear on this matter. It said that it was looking for guidance from outside input on whether there should be a Competition Commission referral. It has said that it will continue to look into cases of potential market abuse to ensure that consumers are protected.

[Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)]

The Domestic Bulk Liquefied Petroleum Gas Market Investigation (Metered Estates) Order of 2009—excuse me for giving its full title—from the Competition Commission has failed abjectly to increase the ability of metered estates using LPG to change. What is the Minister going to do about that?

[Charles Hendry]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue. One of the most complex areas to try to get a market to operate in involves entire estates metered by a single access point. I am happy to talk to him further, and to other colleagues who have concerns about this matter, to see whether there are ways to take the situation forward. I share his concerns that people living in such estates do not always get the protection to which we feel they are entitled.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

It is the affordability aspect of this matter that concerns me deeply. The OFT report clearly indicates that the experience people once had of getting cheap fuel in the summer months, especially heating oil, no longer exists. We need to look seriously at the affordability aspect, especially for low-income households that have never before been in fuel poverty but are now being driven into that category.

[Charles Hendry]

The hon. Gentleman makes a useful point. This summer, we have not seen the drop that one would expect. After a year that has seen unrest in the middle east, it is clear that wholesale prices are higher. It is therefore understandable that the drop has not been so great. We should not fall into a trap, however, of assuming that prices will not ramp up again in the busy period before Christmas and the cold winter. There is a real sense that consumers are ordering early to ensure that their tanks are as full as they can be at this point, because one thing about which we can be absolutely certain is that as we move towards winter, prices will go up further.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

A significant number of my constituents are dependent on home heating oil to heat their homes. There have been severe price rises in recent months. Is there not a clear case for regulation in off-grid as well as on-grid energy? Will the Minister consider that urgently?

[Charles Hendry]

This issue is more acute in Northern Ireland than any other part of the country. Many more consumers are off-grid in Northern Ireland than elsewhere. This issue therefore has a particular resonance there. The OFT investigation established that 97% of consumers have access to at least four independent providers—“independent” being the critical word. The OFT is prepared to look again at examples of consumers not having access to a sufficient number of operators. In addition, where there is a potential takeover, the OFT will require it to be investigated if it appears to be uncompetitive.

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

3. What mechanism his Department has put in place to learn lessons on the safety of coal mining following recent deaths of miners.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

All serious incidents at coal mines are investigated by the mines inspectorate of the Health and Safety Executive. Fatal incidents are also investigated by the relevant local police force. I would like to take this opportunity to express again our sympathy, and I am sure the whole House will join me, to the families and colleagues of the victims of the recent incidents at Gleision and Kellingley collieries. I was able to visit Kellingley myself to see what was being done. The responsibility for implementing any recommendations in resulting reports lies with the Health and Safety Executive of the Department for Work and Pensions.

[Nigel Adams]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that answer and thank him for visiting Kellingley colliery with me. Given that 42% of electricity in the UK during last year’s freezing winter came from coal, what assurances can he give the 2,000 or so remaining coal miners about the role that coal will play in this country’s energy mix in future?

[Chris Huhne]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. This matter always arises when there are sad incidents of the kind that we have recorded. The Government are committed to ensuring that we can continue to use fossil-fuel power generation, not just in the short term to maintain our energy security, but in the longer term with carbon capture and storage. The challenge of decarbonising the next generation of coal-fired and gas-fired power stations is part of the carbon capture and storage programme. Yesterday, we announced the decision on Longannet. I would have very much liked to proceed with that project. However, that decision in no way undermines our commitment to the budget of £1 billion for carbon capture and storage, nor our belief that we can get a commercial project up and running within that budget—we will do so.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

When the mines were publicly owned, there were safety committees at every single pit every month, manned by the Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers and other appropriate unions. There were also mine inspectors, paid for by the union and the board, and unannounced inspections would take place. Now that we have a scattering of small mines employing very few people, what safety measures are in place? Are they parallel to what went before, and can the Secretary of State assure me that the mine rescuers in south Wales had all the necessary equipment available and ready to move when they had to go into that mine?

[Chris Huhne]

I thank the hon. Gentleman. This is an important issue, and he is absolutely right to highlight the potential difficulties now that the industry is smaller. I and my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) insisted that we saw the NUM representatives when we visited Kellingley, for example, and their clear message was that they thought safety had been carefully respected in that incident. We need to keep under constant review safety at Gleision, Kellingley and the other collieries, and we will continue to do so.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

As somebody who lived in the village of Rhos, may I ask the Secretary of State to join me in paying tribute to the local community for the way in which it pulled together during the tragic events at Gleision colliery? What subsequent discussions has he had with the Welsh Government about the future resourcing of the mines rescue service, considering that private mines are an expanding industry in the south Wales coalfield?

[Chris Huhne]

The mines rescue service is available throughout the UK, and in Gleision there were staff available from outside Wales who came in to help. That is absolutely appropriate, because in any particular case we do not know the scale of the situation.

I certainly join the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to the local community. One of the most admirable features of coal mining communities has historically been their extraordinary solidarity when faced with such dangers.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

4. What assessment he has made of the effect on carbon emissions of current economic conditions.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

The Department published updated energy and emissions projections last week. They took due account of the latest published economic outlook by the Office for Budget Responsibility, and of Office for National Statistics figures covering gross domestic product and output for the first six months of 2011. Both current and projected carbon emissions are now lower than in our previous projections. However, our assessment is that only a small part of those revisions is due to lower economic growth, with most being a result of higher projections for fossil fuel prices and other changes.

[Mr Bone]

I thank the excellent Secretary of State for that full answer, but are we not seeing that the economic climate has produced a carbon reduction that the Government could never have hoped for? Is it the Government’s policy to increase the economic downturn to save more carbon?

[Chris Huhne]

It is absolutely not the policy of this Government—nor, I am sure, was it the policy of the last Government or any other British Government—to have a downturn in order to improve carbon emissions. It is certainly the case that if there is a downturn, it goes hand in hand with a reduction in carbon emissions, but our efforts are directed entirely at ensuring that we can have greater energy efficiency, so that we can increase our output with a lower intensity of energy use. In fact, that has been a long-standing trend in the UK economy. We have had a very substantial increase in GDP, even though we have managed to hold our energy use completely stable. That gives us considerable hope that we can continue to do so.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We now need to increase our efficiency and have somewhat lower intensity in the answering of questions from the Treasury Bench. May I say very gently to the Secretary of State that the “War and Peace” versions of answers should be preserved for fireside chats in the long winter evenings that lie ahead?

[Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)]

Plans for carbon capture and storage have descended into a farce. The length of the pipeline from Longannet to the empty reservoirs in the North sea, which is the excuse for not continuing, has not changed. Is it not the Government’s economic commitment to CCS, and to the pioneering project at Longannet, that has changed?

[Chris Huhne]

No, I disagree with the hon. Gentleman on that. Once we had gone through the front-end engineering design studies, the specifics of the Longannet project were clear, including on the costs of transferring carbon into the reservoirs. Those costs were high; as a result, we could not do carbon capture and storage at Longannet, compared with where we believe we can do it elsewhere.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

5. What recent discussions he has had with energy suppliers on the provision to consumers of information on how to access the cheapest tariff.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

The UK low-carbon and environmental sector is growing strongly, despite the disappointing recovery. It employs about 910,000 people, and this could reach more than 1 million by 2015—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I think the Secretary of State might have the wrong link-up between question and answer.

[Chris Huhne]

You are absolutely right, Mr Speaker.

We have negotiated a voluntary agreement with suppliers to provide consumers with a prompt on their bills to cheaper deals this winter, and an additional communication to their customers who pay by cash or cheque to let them know how much they could save by moving to the cheapest direct debit tariff. There is also a commitment from suppliers to assess the impact of the prompt on bills and to improve it in the light of this evidence.

[Jo Swinson]

I thank the Secretary of State for that reply. Last week a Which? investigation uncovered the appalling behaviour of the big six energy companies, finding that they failed to offer the cheapest tariff in a third of calls. I welcome the moves announced this week, although I remain slightly cynical about the willingness of the energy companies to give consumers the fairest deal. Ofgem currently has the power to fine energy companies, but surely it should also be able to force companies to pay compensation in cases such as those highlighted by the Which? report, where they have effectively been mis-selling and providing inaccurate information.

[Chris Huhne]

I consider mis-selling to be a very serious offence, and it is a matter for the independent regulator Ofgem to investigate. As my hon. Friend pointed out, Ofgem has the power to fine energy companies. When customers have lost out, I expect energy companies to pay compensation. Unfortunately, Ofgem currently does not have the power to force companies to give consumer redress, despite the last Government having 13 years and several energy Bills to give it that power. This Government are not going to sit on our hands, unlike those on the Opposition Benches. We are carefully considering legislation on the issue as part of the next energy Bill.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Last week the Secretary of State wrote to me explaining that he believed that doorstep selling was a useful method for the big six in the industry to encourage people to a better tariff. Given that two days ago RWE npower became the fourth of the big six to give up the practice, does he not see some irony in the fact that the organisations that he was supposed to be castigating are way ahead of him?

[Chris Huhne]

The key issue with doorstep selling is whether the companies believe that they can control the work forces who are doing it. If they do not believe that the safeguards are adequate and that they face a reputational risk, that is a commercial matter for them to decide on.

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

6. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on steps to increase employment in the low-carbon energy sector.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

I shall try to ensure that I give the right answer this time.

The UK low-carbon and environmental sector is growing strongly despite the disappointing recovery. It employs about 910,000 people. We believe that this could reach more than 1 million by 2015, not least because of policies such as the green deal—which is in the Energy Act 2011, which has just received Royal Assent—which could see the number of people employed in the insulation industry rising from an estimated 27,000 today to around 100,000 by 2015.

[Jesse Norman]

I thank the Secretary of State for that response. My constituency of Hereford and South Herefordshire is home to the first house refurbished to international PassivHaus standards and is blazing a trail internationally in the quality of environmental design and construction. What advice can my right hon. Friend give to firms in Herefordshire to ensure that they are well placed to benefit from the green deal?

[Chris Huhne]

The green deal is a major opportunity for businesses of all sizes, in all parts of the country, because our homes are in all parts of the country. Therefore, the scheme will help to revitalise the market for energy-efficiency products in every part of our nation. The green deal and the eco-consultation will be published shortly and will set out the requirements for businesses to help them to gear up for autumn 2012, I hope in a clear way.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State rightly criticised the previous Government for pulling out of the Peterhead project, losing us world leadership and potential jobs. Is he not doing exactly the same thing with his disgraceful decision on the Longannet project?

[Chris Huhne]

No, I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman on that point. It was regrettable that we did not proceed with Peterhead in 2007, and one thing that we can hold out real hope for is the fact that we have had considerable expressions of interest from Scottish and Southern, and other potential consortium members, for a Peterhead project, which should be able to proceed within budget and on time.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

I welcome today’s announcement on the renewables obligation certificates review, particularly in respect of marine renewables and the wave hub project off the north coast of Cornwall. What will the Secretary of State do to ensure that the UK leads the world in marine renewables from now on?

[Chris Huhne]

One of the features of the renewables obligation review that my hon. Friend will have noticed is that we have increased our support for marine technologies to five renewables obligations certificates. In our view, that will bring forward the necessary innovation and testing to ensure that we have a world lead in this sector.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

One such opportunity to increase employment in the low-carbon energy sector was scuppered yesterday by the Government’s announcement that they were pulling out of the carbon capture and storage demonstrator at Longannet. Will the Secretary of State now confirm to the House that there will be no backsliding by the Treasury, and that the £1 billion funding will definitely be in place and will be used to get four CCS demonstration projects in place for the future?

[Chris Huhne]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the Dispatch Box and to his new role on the Front Bench speaking for the Opposition. I can certainly confirm that there is absolutely no backsliding on the money available for carbon capture and storage. The Treasury will confirm that there is £1 billion available to support CCS, and we are looking to do that in the most effective way possible so that we can ensure that the industry is rolled out, that we can have a lead in that industry, and that we are able to meet our strategic objectives in making CCS available.

[Tom Greatrex]

I am grateful for that response, and I hope that we will see that come to fruition, even perhaps after the Secretary of State is no longer responsible for these issues. Does he also understand the urgency involved if we are to get the employment benefits as well as the emissions benefits from CCS? Will he undertake to have urgent discussions with Infrastructure UK, to ensure that the energy hubs needed to go alongside the CCS projects are put in place, so that we get the jobs and investment benefits as well as the environmental benefits?

[Chris Huhne]

I have to say that I find it somewhat ironic to be lectured by the Opposition about the importance of speed in this area, given that it was the Labour Government who cancelled the Peterhead project in 2007. The reality is that we are attempting to proceed with this as quickly as we can. We have learned an awful lot from the negotiations and from the engineering studies at Longannet, and we hope that we can proceed and deliver on time and within budget.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

7. What plans he has to support investment by small and medium-sized enterprises in energy efficiency schemes.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

8. What plans he has to support investment by small and medium-sized enterprises in energy efficiency schemes.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)]

There are a number of Government policies that support small and medium-sized enterprises. The green deal, for example, will be available to SMEs when it is launched next year. It will enable them to improve the energy efficiency of their properties, thereby reducing carbon emissions and energy costs. The green deal will also drive demand for energy efficiency products and services, from which SMEs will be able to benefit.

[Mary Macleod]

Ormiston Wire in Isleworth has previously won the Queen’s award for sustainable development, and has a wealth of experience in wind turbines, solar panels and energy-efficient lighting. Will the Government ensure that SMEs such as Ormiston Wire are represented in the discussions on the green deal, to ensure that SMEs are given real support for any energy-efficient schemes?

[Charles Hendry]

I am delighted to hear from my hon. Friend of the steps that Ormiston Wire has taken; they are typical of the measures that many companies have taken. The green deal is a way of encouraging SMEs to put in place energy efficiency measures, and I am glad to see that they are taking advantage of that. The feed-in tariff regime will also encourage them to look at microgeneration.

[John Glen]

I thank the Minister for his replies. Many businesses in Salisbury are very supportive of the intentions of the green deal, but can he explain how consumers will be able to have access to the widest possible choice of green deal providers from 2012?

[Charles Hendry]

One of the key aspects of the green deal is that companies will be able to seek an assessment and take it to any green deal provider. This will provide real consumer choice. We have found it most encouraging that providers have been coming forward and offering their services, because they see this as good for growth in the economy as well as for energy efficiency.

[Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)]

But may I urge the Minister to press the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to do more to engage with SMEs on the green deal. The experience of a small enterprise in my constituency is that officials have stopped talking to them and that BIS is going ahead instead with trials with large organisations such as B&Q. More joined-up working is needed.

[Charles Hendry]

I am intrigued to hear what the hon. Lady has said and I would be grateful if she gave us more information about it. We have regular contact and a very constructive relationship with BIS, which is looking at a finance aggregator to try to help SMEs to take advantage of the opportunities available within this package. The whole issue of financing is at the core of the work that BIS is doing. If the hon. Lady would like to give us more information, we could respond in more detail to her particular concerns.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

With growth flatlining and unemployment rising we urgently need a plan to get our economy growing. That means creating jobs, particularly for Britain’s 2 million small businesses. That is why we proposed amendments to what is now the Energy Act 2011 that would have boosted small business. We suggested lowering the cost of administration to give small businesses, along with charities, social enterprises and co-operatives, fair access to the green deal marketplace. Will the Minister tell us why the Government voted in Committee against supporting small British businesses, and will he commit today to backing our plans in secondary legislation?

[Charles Hendry]

We are absolutely committed to small and medium-sized companies having access to these issues and we are keen to find the best way of dealing with it. In that respect, we are committed to bringing forward further measures. As for the delays, the hon. Lady should be aware that we proposed a green deal, exactly as it is now, in the Energy Bill of 2010—almost two years ago—and it was voted down in principle and in concept by the then Labour Government, who have lost us nearly two years in rolling out energy efficiency.

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

9. If he will take steps to simplify energy tariffs for consumers.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)]

One of the main aims of the Ofgem retail market review is to reduce tariff complexity, making bills easier to compare. I welcome these proposals and look forward to Ofgem’s forthcoming consultation on its plans to simplify tariffs and boost competition.

[Pauline Latham]

In the light of the news that fewer customers are now switching supplier, despite the proven benefits of doing so, I welcome the Government’s new “check, switch, insulate to save” scheme, but how will the Minister ensure that consumers, particularly the elderly who do not necessarily have access to computers or computer skills, take up the savings available?

[Charles Hendry]

My hon. Friend raises an important issue. After yesterday’s debate, I think the whole House will be entirely aware of my own inability to switch because of the complexity of the regime online. We have required the energy companies to write to 4 million vulnerable customers this winter so that they understand that they could be on a lower tariff and what more might be available to them in terms of energy efficiency and they get what help is currently available.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

We have heard a lot about last Monday’s summit. Will the Minister tell us whether the Government directly asked the big six companies whether they were prepared to freeze gas and electricity prices or indeed reduce them in the future?

[Charles Hendry]

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point. The important point about the summit was that the industry, consumer groups and the Government were working together. Most of the energy companies have already said that they will freeze the prices right through this coming winter and that there will be no further increases. What we have also looked at is what can be done right now. Sometimes the cynicism—not from the hon. Gentleman but from some of his colleagues—about the measures to check and insulate in order to get the best savings is unfortunate because it means that constituents who could be doing more to help themselves and take advantage of what is already on offer might be inclined not to do so.

[Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)]

11. What recent discussions he has had on reducing fuel poverty; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

I regularly engage with stakeholders such as energy companies and consumer organisations to discuss our policies to assist low-income and vulnerable households to heat their homes more affordably. I recently had interesting discussions with Professor John Hills, the author of the fuel poverty review.

[Chris White]

I thank the Secretary of State for his response. One way of reducing fuel poverty is through providing more support to lower-income families to make their homes more energy-efficient. I appreciate that the Government’s proposed energy company obligations seek to do that, but I ask the Secretary of State for an update on his Department’s progress in creating those obligations, and will he tell us when he hopes they will come into effect?

[Chris Huhne]

My hon. Friend is right. A key focus of the energy company obligation will be on householders who cannot achieve significant energy savings without an additional measure of support. That will include, through the affordable warmth target, specific assistance to the poorest and most vulnerable people to help them keep their homes warm affordably. We are consulting this autumn on secondary legislation for the green deal and the ECO, as I have said in answer to colleagues before, and we intend to launch them in autumn 2012.

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

I welcome the Government’s support for Labour’s motion yesterday, which said:

“with a cold winter forecast and Government support cut, millions of families will struggle to heat their homes”.—[Official Report, 19 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 1006.]

I am glad that the Secretary of State agrees with that. What is he going to do about it this winter?

[Chris Huhne]

The right hon. Lady should be aware that under the warm home discount scheme—a statutory scheme, not a voluntary grace-and-favour one of the sort operated by the Labour Government—we will be providing substantial support to 600,000 particularly vulnerable key pensioners. That amounts to £120 off their bills, and is a two-thirds increase on what was available under the voluntary scheme operated by the previous Government.

[Caroline Flint]

I understand that the benefit of the warm home discount is less than the profits that the energy companies make. Yesterday, Government Members also supported our demand

“that energy companies use their profits to help reduce bills this winter.”—[Official Report, 19 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 1007.]

How and when will the Secretary of State make that happen?

[Chris Huhne]

On Monday, at the energy summit, we discussed with the energy companies exactly how they could help, and there are a number of ways in which they are doing that. For example, they have made a voluntary commitment, which they will implement this winter, to state in every bill whether cheaper tariffs are available, to provide energy-saving advice and to promote the “check, switch, insulate to save” campaign, which I hope will—with the right hon. Lady’s backing, I am sure—be a great success.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

13. What steps he is taking to reduce the cost of gas and electricity for consumers.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)]

The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State chaired a summit with consumer groups on Monday to launch the “check, switch, insulate to save” campaign and a package of measures to help consumers this winter. We are working with consumer groups, energy suppliers and the regulator Ofgem to ensure that consumers know how to save money on their energy bills by checking on their energy deal, switching their supplier if appropriate and insulating their homes.

[Mr Nuttall]

I do not know whether the Minister has had a chance to read a recent book entitled “Let Them Eat Carbon”, by Matthew Sinclair of the TaxPayers Alliance, but if he has he will have noted Citigroup’s estimate that this country will have to spend more on meeting environmental targets than Germany, France, Spain and Italy put together. Does he accept that when those costs are passed on they will result in even higher energy bills for consumers?

[Charles Hendry]

I have serious doubts about the information in that book about the relative costs, particularly compared with countries such as Germany. We have to deal with a legacy of a failure of investment over the past 13 years. Every year of this decade, we will have to secure investment in our energy infrastructure at twice the rate secured in the previous decade, which will entail a cost to consumers, who are picking up the tab for Labour’s failures.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I remind the Minister that a leading expert on energy said only this week in the precincts of the House that the real reason for the astronomical energy price rises was the privatisation of the energy industry and the sweating of assets over many years? Is that not the truth? Is that not why we have rocketing energy costs and our European neighbours do not?

[Charles Hendry]

The hon. Gentleman makes some of the points that I was just making. The sweating of assets to which he referred resulted from the lack of investment over the past 13 years in the building of new plants. It is 15 years since the last nuclear plant was opened, 25 years since it was commissioned and 40 years since the last coal plant was opened. We have not seen enough investment in plant, and that is a legacy issue that is now being addressed. As a result of competition, we ended up with some of the cheapest electricity and gas prices in the whole of Europe, but we have to make up for that legacy of failure.

[Mr Speaker]

We are certainly using a lot of energy today, that is for sure.

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

I want to return to consumers and their costs. Will the Minister urge Ofgem to reconsider the unit as a specification? What does “a unit” mean? Could we not look at cost per bulb hour, and other things that consumers understand? That will drive behaviour change as well.

[Charles Hendry]

Let me say in response to your comment, Mr Speaker, that I like to see myself as a source of endless renewable energy. As for the point that my hon. Friend has rightly made, clarity is indeed a real issue. People are confused because they simply do not know what the term “unit” might refer to. I hope that Ofgem and the industry will try to establish what more can be done to ensure that it is absolutely clear how much energy people are using.

[Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)]

14. What information Ministers in his Department gathered on the policies of other countries on maintaining the competitiveness of energy-intensive industries during recent visits to Europe.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)]

My hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), visited Germany last month to see at first hand how German policy on the competitiveness of energy-intensive industries is put into practice. My officials are also working with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Treasury to prepare a package of measures for the most affected energy-intensive businesses, which we plan to announce before the end of the year.

[Mr Hunt]

Does the Minister agree that the German experience shows that it is possible to adopt both a strong commitment to moving towards a low-carbon economy and a comprehensive range of measures that protect the competitiveness of energy-intensive sectors? Will he take steps to ensure that the mitigating strategies that the Government will announce this autumn benefit not just the larger companies, but smaller energy-intensive companies such as those in the ceramics sector, which can help to rebalance the economy?

[Charles Hendry]

Let me begin by thanking the hon. Gentleman for the work that he is doing in the all-party group that he leads. It is extremely valuable to the whole sector. There must be a balance between moving in a low-carbon direction and ensuring that successful businesses are not driven abroad, and the measures on which we are working with BIS and the Treasury are intended to strike that balance. If those companies simply moved overseas, we lost the jobs and they continued to emit carbon in the same way, there would be no net gain for the world climate—or, indeed, the UK economy.

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

I am pleased that the Minister recognises the concerns of energy-intensive industries such as those involved in packaging manufacture and CEMEX, in my constituency, which manufactures cement. CEMEX faces a £20 million bill for complying with carbon legislation, which is causing concern about the viability of its UK plant. Will the Minister do all he can to ensure that UK manufacturing industry is not placed at a competitive disadvantage?

[Charles Hendry]

Let me reassure my hon. Friend that we regularly meet representatives of industry and industry groups to ensure that we understand the full range of concerns. The work currently being done across Government is designed to ensure that we first understand where the challenges and threats are coming from, and then introduce sensible measures to protect companies of important national and strategic interest. I think that that strikes the right balance, but we are always keen to receive representations from Members on both sides of the House about specific constituency issues.

[Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)]

18. What plans he has to involve local authorities in meeting the UK's targets for reducing carbon emissions.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

Local authorities are uniquely placed to provide leadership and vision in tackling climate change in their communities. Many are enthusiastic about playing their part, and have stretched their ambitions to reduce carbon emissions in their areas. My Department involves local authorities in a range of policies, including some on the roll-out of the green deal.

[Phil Wilson]

Given that 22% of County Durham’s energy needs come from renewable energy sources, including 17 wind farms—is one of the best records in England—and given that the figure in the Secretary of State’s own county of Hampshire is only about 4%, does he agree that we should be sharing the burden as well as the benefits of renewable infrastructure?

[Chris Huhne]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am very much in favour of increasing the amount of renewable energy throughout the United Kingdom. The renewables obligation review proposes that support should be targeted particularly on areas where there is the most wind, because it is in no one’s interest to build wind turbines where there is an inadequate wind resource.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Stephen Gilbert. He is not here, so I call Julie Hilling.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

20. What plans he has to provide support for households in meeting the cost of energy bills.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)]

I refer the hon. Lady to the answer that I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) a few moments ago.

[Julie Hilling]

I thank the Minister for that answer, but I still do not understand what he is going to do to prevent people from dying this winter. Will he also urge the Government to reconsider the decision to cut the winter fuel allowance?

[Charles Hendry]

As the hon. Lady well knows, the winter fuel allowance was introduced by the last Government. Had it not been for the fact that—as one of her colleagues who was then a Minister pointed out—there was no money left, we might have been able to consider some of these matters further. However, we have implemented the policy of the last Labour Administration, and in the meantime we are trying to ensure that people check their bills for accuracy, insulate their homes, and look for better arrangements to which they might switch. That makes evident sense, because it can bring significant benefits, and it should not be dismissed, because it will help many of the hon. Lady’s constituents.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

What has been done for customers with prepayment meters and keys? Their bills are more expensive per unit, and as they are not sent a bill there are limited opportunities for the energy companies to communicate with them, and so little choice is offered to them.

[Charles Hendry]

There is evidence, which Ofgem is gathering, that people on prepayment meters are paying less now than they were in the past. One reason we have been keen to take forward the smart meter programme is to ensure that people get absolute accuracy in their billing. That programme is furthest advanced in Northern Ireland, and people on prepayment meters there pay less than people on normal tariffs.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

My Department is tasked with powering our people and protecting our planet. Since the last departmental questions, we have published the renewables obligation banding review, which examines the support that different technologies will receive under the renewables obligation. We have also published the electricity market reform White Paper, which sets out our plans to secure affordable low-carbon energy for decades to come. We have also held a consumer energy summit, bringing together consumer groups, the industry, Ministers and the regulator to help people save money on their bills this winter. Finally, the Energy Bill—including our flagship energy-saving programme, the green deal—received Royal Assent on Tuesday and is now the Energy Act 2011.

[Ian Lavery]

The Secretary of State is aware of the situation at Rio Tinto Alcan at Lynemouth in my constituency. Some 650 private sector jobs are hanging by a thread. The company says that the problem is the green taxes implemented by the Government, which will wipe out £50 million in annual profit. Will the Minister say when he will make announcements on the renewables obligation certificates banding and on the energy-intensive industries package, and will he assure the House that those packages combined will prevent mass job losses in the energy-intensive industry sector?

[Chris Huhne]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, not least because I have had discussions with Rio Tinto about the Alcan plant. It is regrettable that it made its decision ahead of the publication of the renewables obligation. That was published today, so, to answer one of the hon. Gentleman’s questions, those figures are now available, and we have just heard from the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), that the energy efficiency package for energy-intensive industries will be in place by the end of the year. In our discussions with Rio Tinto I asked the company whether it would give a guarantee about local employment if it received the support that it wanted in converting the electricity generation plant to biomass. It did not give that guarantee. That is regrettable, and the hon. Gentleman will have noticed that the Alcan decision is part of a wider programme of worldwide disposals by the company.

[Mr Speaker]

We are all significantly better informed.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

T2. Following on from the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt), with energy prices at an all-time high, many low-income families are opting to convert to prepayment meters for their gas and electricity supply. However, according to Consumer Focus that can cost up to £195 extra per year. Will the Secretary of State consider introducing regulation of the market to ensure that low-income families pay the same regardless of whether their payment method is by prepayment meters, direct debit or quarterly bills?

[Chris Huhne]

Energy tariffs are a matter for Ofgem. It has put in place rules to prevent unfair price differentials such as those between different payment methods and has reported on the effectiveness of those changes. It has found that prepayment meter customers now pay on average about £20 less than standard credit customers for their gas and electricity. It has also found that direct debit customers now pay on average £70 less than others, which falls within the £88 indicative cost difference between providing direct debit accounts and other types of agreement.

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

The Labour Opposition day motion, which the Secretary of State supported yesterday, calls on the Government

“to investigate mis-selling and ensure consumers are compensated”.

He seems to believe that that can apply only to future mis-selling, but examples such as payment protection insurance and lawyers charging additional fees to coal health claimants prove that that is not the case. Will he back our demand for an urgent inquiry into mis-selling, with redress for those who have already suffered?

[Chris Huhne]

The clear advice that I have received is that, legally, we will have to legislate to ensure that redress is available for energy consumers—but I am happy to look at any evidence that the right hon. Lady has to the contrary, and if we can move further and faster, we will. However, our advice at present is that we will need new legislation, and it is a matter of great regret to me that the Labour Government did not implement that.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

T4. My understanding is that under the green deal golden rule, monthly repayments should be lower than the energy savings, but this makes them very sensitive to interest rate charges on the loans. What progress is being made on setting up a new not-for-profit company that can offer green deal loans at below market rates?

[Chris Huhne]

We have made considerable progress on this matter. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) was talking about the aggregator, which seeks to ensure that we get good support for small businesses, and that is an important part of it. On the point about the costs being sensitive to interest rates, the way we envisage this working is that the financing will, in most cases, be available at fixed rates, so that the consumer will know in advance exactly what those interest rates will be. That is one of the reasons why the assurance can be made about the green deal offering a reduction in the overall energy bill.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

T3. In five years’ time, when judgments are made about the value of the ineptocracy being created by the Tory-Lib Dem junta at the moment, will we see their main crime as being their neglect of the immense power of the tides in creating energy that is clean, British, cheap and eternal?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Gentleman has a marvellous turn of phrase, and I pay tribute to that. However, he has chosen his question with extraordinarily inappropriate timing, because we have today announced a renewables obligation review that increases the renewables obligation certificates available for precisely the technology that he seeks to advocate.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

T5. York Handmade Brick Company is precisely the type of company that would benefit from the exemption from carbon floor prices now being given in Germany. Will the Government agree to extend the number of industries—from aluminium and other industries to brick and ceramics—that benefit from high energy user exemptions in this country?

[Chris Huhne]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her question. With UK support, the European Union agreed in May that the ceramics sector is at significant risk of carbon leakage, and as a result that sector will receive 100% of its European Union emissions trading scheme credits free from 2013. That will enable the sector to contribute to the environmental outcomes of the ETS while maintaining its own competitiveness.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

T6. Professor John Hills’s review revealed that at least 2,700 people die every winter because they cannot afford to heat their homes. With energy prices significantly up in real terms this year and last year, and with winter fuel payments down in real terms this year and last year, what guarantees can Ministers give that that death rate will not increase?

[Chris Huhne]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. I am delighted, as I am sure he is, at the thoroughness of the interim report by Professor John Hills, which I commissioned. I do not think that winter fuel payments are the best way of dealing with this problem, partly because they are not targeted. The warm home discount does target a two-thirds increase in the discounts on this particularly vulnerable group. That will have an effect this winter, despite the substantial increases in prices that the hon. Gentleman points out.

[Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)]

As a London MP, I am often struck by the energy inefficiency of office buildings in the capital, whose lights blaze throughout the night, regardless of whether anybody is working in them. Will the Minister say what steps he is taking to tackle light pollution and the energy inefficiency of office buildings? In particular, is there a case to be made for mandatory movement-sensitive lighting systems?

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)]

My hon. Friend raises an extremely interesting issue. I have the sense sometimes that Canary Wharf would be visible from Mars at night, and there are some lessons that we need to learn. The Government are showing leadership on this: simply by using energy-saving measures we have cut our own emissions by 20% in DECC over the year, and all Government Departments have cut theirs by 10%. We need to involve people who work in such buildings so that we can get their ideas about the contribution they can make, because this is as much about human endeavour as the advances in technology.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

An increasing number of my constituents are telling me that they are not just anxious but frightened about whether they will be able to pay their winter fuel bills. I ask the Minister not what the regulator or the companies has done but what specific representations the Minister or the Prime Minister made to the six big energy companies about keeping the cost of energy down or freezing it? If he cannot give me the details today, will he write to me and set that out?

[Chris Huhne]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that question. We came away from the energy summit not just having made representations to the energy companies but with a list of specific actions that will help, including, for example, the 4 million letters that will be sent out to vulnerable groups on access to energy saving. We were determined to secure all those points as a result of the energy summit, and we did.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

As Rio Tinto has shown itself more determined to sell aluminium plants across the world, including in Lynemouth, than to engage in the discussions that the Secretary of State has been willing to have with it, is he equally willing to have discussions with any new buyer who might be prepared to take on the Lynemouth plant?

[Chris Huhne]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that question. Of course I am. I would be delighted to have discussions. I want to see jobs preserved both at Lynemouth and in the rest of the country. We hope that aluminium can continue to be produced in this country because, in our thrust towards low-carbon transition, we will need aluminium as part of the raw materials for that revolution.

[Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)]

Will the Minister urgently investigate the impediment that his Department is imposing on new entrants in the energy market by back-charging for levy obligations after a company has a certain number of customers in its roster? Will he make proposals to deal with that anomaly so that such entrants are not impeded?

[Charles Hendry]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and I would be happy to discuss it further with him. We have lifted the threshold at which those obligations start from 50,000 customers to 250,000 customers, which will greatly assist smaller companies to get involved in the sector. If there are barriers about which he wants to talk further, we are keen to remove them and will be happy to engage with him in trying to assist such companies.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State give us an update on the decision-making process for the location of the green investment bank? Does he agree that the bid by Leeds, in Yorkshire, looks particularly attractive?

[Chris Huhne]

I see that we have now got on to the topographical, rather than the topical, part of Question Time. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, rather than the Department of Energy and Climate Change, has the lead responsibility for the green investment bank. Progress is being made, the advisory group has been set up, and I am confident that we will be able to make good progress in the coming months.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Installing insulation attracts a 5% reduced VAT rate, and so do installing central heating and hot water system controls, but installing an energy-efficient boiler attracts the 20% standard rate. Is the Secretary of State talking to Treasury colleagues about this, and the need for a 5% rate on all building repair, maintenance and improvement works for energy efficiency projects that are eligible under the green deal?

[Chris Huhne]

I am grateful for that question. The VAT regime and its complexities are a mystery to many of us who have studied it over the years. It is full of oddities. Of course, that is not just a matter for the Treasury, because the VAT that can be levied is subject to EU rules, too. The question of particular anomalies arises not just at a British level but at European level.

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

Will the Minister update the House on the progress being made by the Government on the renewable heat incentive?

[Charles Hendry]

The renewable heat incentive, as my hon. Friend will be aware, is a world beater and a new approach on which we are very glad to lead. We have taken it forward for commercial industrial premises. There has been a challenge from the European Commission that we are in the process of sorting out, and we are finalising the details for the domestic sector because we recognise that it is an important way of encouraging people to consider alternative ways of heating their homes.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Analysis commissioned by G20 Finance Ministers shows that applying a carbon price to international transport fuels will both reduce emissions and generate billions of pounds for climate finance for developing countries. What assessment has the Secretary of State made of that report, and what discussions is he having with ministerial colleagues about agreeing a UK position on it in advance of the Durban climate conference?

[Chris Huhne]

I am particularly keen on this area, as I was on the UN Secretary-General’s advisory group on finance that recommended that it should go forward and that the G20 should look at it. We are having continuing discussions, and I am very hopeful that this is one of the most fruitful areas in which we can raise climate finance for developing countries.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

I have a number of constituents in very rural areas who are off-gas and have wood-burning stoves that can be connected to radiator systems. They are deliberately avoiding the installation of oil-fired boilers because of the high cost of heating oil and the local availability of wood. If someone in that position were to install a radiator heating system powered by their existing wood burner, would it be eligible for funding under the green deal scheme?

[Chris Huhne]

The green deal scheme is specifically for insulation, but the renewable heat incentive scheme is available precisely to provide alternatives to oil-fired boilers in off-gas-grid areas, for example. I understand that some of the offers are very attractive here and now. We have some support for residential schemes, and they will be expanded when we have assessed the pilots next year.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Yesterday’s news on Longannet was obviously deeply disappointing to my constituents, and to the whole of Fife. Will the Secretary of State set out what assessment he has made of the medium-term future of the station, and will his Department work with me to secure a long-term future for it? Will he also confirm that despite the bluster and spin from the Scottish National party Government, not a single penny has been offered by Mr Salmond?

[Charles Hendry]

May I first thank the hon. Gentleman for the very constructive way in which he has engaged in this process and for the support that he has given to his constituents? I think that there is joint disappointment that it has not been possible to take that project forward. The longer-term future of the plant will now be a matter for the company, and that was always going to be one of the problems of a retrospective regime at an old plant with the upgrading costs that would have been necessary. I am delighted that he will engage with us as Ministers and with our officials on the best way of taking things forward, because we are completely committed to seeing carbon capture and storage developed, preferably in Scotland. As far as I am aware, not one penny of support was offered by the Scottish Government.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

In respect of the Minister of State’s responses regarding the Office of Fair Trading’s inquiry into off-grid energy supplies, which identified the importance of a diversity of suppliers, does he accept that the nature of the contracts that have been entered into restricts the opportunities for those who are supplied, particularly where they are forced to have a container to hold the liquefied petroleum gas?

[Charles Hendry]

The Office of Fair Trading has indicated that it will look at further examples of market abuse and anti-competitive behaviour, and that it is looking for evidence to be submitted to it in order to take that work forward, so there will undoubtedly be areas of further work that needs to be done. Some of that may need to be referred to the Competition Commission, and I hope that my hon. Friend will make forceful representations to that effect.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

I must squeeze in Naomi Long.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

The extraction of shale gas by hydraulic fracturing carries with it significant environmental risks. What assessment have the Government made of those risks, and what discussions have they had with their counterparts in the Northern Ireland Assembly about those?

[Charles Hendry]

Let me reassure the hon. Lady that any shale gas extraction has to abide by exactly the same environmental and regulatory restrictions as any other oil and gas developments. There has been only very limited interest, and there is only one drilling application at the moment, in Lancashire, with Cuadrilla. It has potential for the United Kingdom but the issues here are very different from those in the United States in terms of land ownership rights, which I think will impede its development here compared with the rate in the US. It has a potential role to play, but it will be done within very strict environmental constraints.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

As usual, demand exceeds supply, but we must move on.

Business of the House

Thursday 20th October 2011 Commons Chamber

11:34

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House please give us the forthcoming business?

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)]

The business for the week commencing 24 October will be:

Monday 24 October—Motion relating to a national referendum on the European Union. This subject has been nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. In addition, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister plans to make a statement on the European Council.

Tuesday 25 October—Remaining stages of the Public Bodies Bill [Lords].

Wednesday 26 October—Opposition day [unallotted day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject to be announced.

Thursday 27 October—A general debate on the UK chairmanship of the Council of Europe.

The provisional business for the week commencing 31 October will include:

Monday 31 October—Instruction relating to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, followed by remaining stages of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill (day 1).

Tuesday 1 November—Continuation of remaining stages of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill (day 2).

Wednesday 2 November—Conclusion of remaining stages of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill (day 3).

Thursday 3 November—Business nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 27 October will be:

Thursday 27 October—A debate on NHS care of older people.

I remind the House that the week commencing 31 October will be Parliament week. This is an exciting new national initiative, exploring how democracy affects citizens and how they can participate in it. Of particular interest to Members during Parliament week will be the fact that the UK Youth Parliament is holding its annual debate in the Chamber on Friday 4 November. I look forward to welcoming all those taking part on that day, and I am sure that other hon. Members will take an interest in the proceedings.

[Ms Eagle]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his answer. I certainly hope that the business remains the same until we get to Monday because we have had two very drastic changes in less than 24 hours.

I pay tribute to the outgoing Serjeant at Arms, who will be sorely missed when she leaves in the new year. She is the first woman to hold the post and she has served the House with distinction for 18 years.

Never let it be said that business questions does not achieve results. Just 24 hours after my first appearance here as shadow Leader of the House last week, the Prime Minister answered my call to include more women in his Cabinet. If he is going to take my advice that quickly, I start today by calling for an immediate general election. [Interruption.] They are already out there campaigning.

At the beginning of the week we all saw the astonishing pictures of the Minister of State, Cabinet Office taking his regular early morning strolls in the park. He is well known for his wisdom. He recently startled a group of his own Back Benchers by announcing that the Government would run out of ideas by 2012. Some of us think that they already have. He then upset the Deputy Prime Minister by saying:

“We don’t want more people from Sheffield flying away on cheap holidays.”

Now it appears that the Prime Minister’s policy supremo and blue-sky thinker has developed a penchant for al fresco filing and is the subject of two official investigations as a result. Is not the real problem that he has been throwing away the wrong things? Next time he is out for an early morning stroll in the park he should be throwing the Government’s failing economic strategy and their wasteful NHS plans in the bin, rather than disposing of his constituents’ private details. May we have a debate on Ministers who think that the rules do not apply to them?

Speaking of which, in his statement yesterday the Leader of the House said that it was time to move on from the scandal engulfing the former Secretary of State for Defence. Will he accept that we cannot move on while serious questions remain? In that context, it has been widely reported that the former Secretary of State used his then parliamentary office to run his discredited charity, Atlantic Bridge. Has the Leader of the House conducted an investigation into this issue, and if so is he satisfied that no parliamentary rules were broken by that unusual arrangement?

If yesterday saw the House at its most combative, Monday saw the House at its most consensual. The injustice and raw emotion still felt by the Hillsborough families was movingly reflected in this House on Monday in one of the most powerful debates I have witnessed in all my time as a Member of this place. Will the right hon. Gentleman join me in congratulating the Backbench Business Committee on the speed with which it facilitated that important debate? Members on both sides of the House now recognise the urgent need to release all the documents relating to the disaster to get finally at the truth and bring some comfort to the families. Following the disgraceful comments yesterday by Sir Oliver Popplewell, who accused the families of harbouring conspiracy theories, will the Leader of the House ask the Home Secretary to join Opposition Members in condemning unreservedly those crass and insensitive remarks.

The Leader of the House has just announced last-minute, wholesale changes to next week’s business. There have been two major changes to business in less than 24 hours, and the right hon. Gentleman has brought forward the Public Bodies Bill and shifted the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill back by a week. That Bill has been ambushed by Tory hangers and floggers, and torn to pieces, both in the press and by the legal profession. It is all too obvious that the Ministry of Justice is in a mess and cannot even bring its Bill to the House.

The most revealing announcement from the Leader of the House was about the Government’s decision to rush forward the debate proposing a referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union from Thursday to first thing Monday. Fifty-nine Conservatives have already declared their intention to defy their leader, and there are reports that at least five ministerial aides are on the brink of resignation, so is that not proof of a growing Tory mutiny that has the Prime Minister running scared, the Whips Office in a panic and a Government split from top to bottom? Will the Leader of the House confirm that if he thought he could have got away with it, he would have scheduled this debate on Sunday evening during “Songs of Praise”?

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for those questions, and I endorse entirely what she said about Jill Pay, the Serjeant at Arms, who has been a doughty servant of the House for so long, and who will be much missed when she retires in January.

The hon. Lady rightly pointed out that within 24 hours I responded to her request for more women in the Cabinet. On the issue of calling a general election, I have announced an Opposition day, and it is perfectly open to the Opposition to table a vote of no confidence in the Government. I am sure that she had the approval of the Leader of the Opposition in laying down that challenge.

We held a debate on the economy last week, and we spent some time on the issue. It remains our view that an essential ingredient of growth is low interest rates, and we believe that the policies advocated by the Opposition would prejudice that. A 1% rise in interest rates would, on average, increase mortgage costs by £80 a month, which would not be welcomed by householders.

I agree that the debate on Monday was a very, very moving debate that showed the House at its best, and it was a credit to the Backbench Business Committee that it scheduled. It was the product of the e-petition system that was introduced at the beginning of this Parliament in response to a coalition agreement commitment, and it was a credit to that system, too.

I have not read the comments by Justice Popplewell, but I would condemn any insensitive comments, particularly at this moment in time. I think that the House is united in urging everyone to work constructively with the independent panel so that the public can finally learn the truth.

The final issue raised by the hon. Lady was the business for next week. When I first became a Member of Parliament, we received the business for one week ahead, and that was it. A few years ago, it was changed, so one week was fixed and business for the second week was provisional. The deal was always that the second week was provisional. We try not to make any changes, because we know that that causes disruption, but occasionally it is necessary. Last Thursday I announced that next Thursday would be devoted to a debate approved by the Backbench Business Committee. The motion was not tabled until yesterday—Wednesday—which was when the Government saw the motion on an EU referendum.

My view—I hope that it is shared by the Backbench Business Committee and the House—is that the debate would be enriched by the presence of the Foreign Secretary. He is available on Monday; he is not available, because he will be at the Commonwealth Heads of Government conference in Australia, on Thursday. That is why we brought the debate forward to Monday, and I think that the House would welcome a debate addressed by the Foreign Secretary. I hope that that is generally understood. Consideration of the Public Bodies Bill in Committee ended two weeks ago, and it is entirely appropriate that we deal with the remaining stages next Tuesday.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend share my utter frustration with Opposition Members constantly talking women down? May we have a debate to celebrate British women and what the Government are doing to support more women and girls to fulfil their full potential? [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are all interested to hear about the frustrations of the Prime Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary, even if they are expressed from a sedentary position.

[Sir George Young]

I am sure that my right hon. Friend would welcome any opportunity to celebrate women, Mr. Speaker.

We discussed on Tuesday the changes we made to the Pensions Bill, which have reduced the delay that confronted women before they became entitled to the state pension. We have announced changes to the universal credit so that those working less than 16 hours a week will be entitled to child care payments, and we are taking a range of measures, not least the Work programme, that will help those women who want to return to part-time work. I would welcome such a debate, but at the moment I cannot find time to schedule one.

[Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)]

There will be suspicion in the House about the timing of the Report stage of the Public Bodies Bill. There is growing concern about the Government’s inadequate response to the call for the establishment of the office of the chief coroner. If we consider the Bill on Report next Tuesday, that is well ahead of any intention by the Government to publish and make available the details of the responses to the consultation on this issue. How can we deal with the Bill on Report without those responses? Will the Leader of the House put them in the Library?

[Sir George Young]

The Bill is of course paving legislation; it introduces the capacity to make the changes to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. The Bill finished in Committee two weeks ago and only one amendment is down for consideration, so I think that one day on Report is appropriate. The progress of the Bill on Tuesday in no way precludes the progress for which the right hon. Gentleman has just asked.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

May we please have a statement on whether the Government will recompense anyone who planned to attend a lobby of Parliament next Thursday, organised by the People’s Pledge, but have now had to reorganise their travel plans as a result of the rescheduling of Government business?

[Sir George Young]

If the Government were to be liable for changes in the provisional business for the second week, I suspect that the consequence would be that it would never be announced. It is perfectly possible for those who want to lobby Parliament to do so next Thursday.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

Although I welcome the participation of the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister in the debate on Monday, does the Leader of the House agree that such short-notice rescheduling could be avoided by simply giving the Backbench Business Committee a set day every week, perhaps Wednesday afternoon, in which to schedule its business? While on the subject of scheduling business, will he please confirm what time the Government will give the Committee in the Chamber between now and the end of the Session to compensate for the extended length of the Session?

[Sir George Young]

I welcome what the hon. Lady says about the Foreign Secretary’s participation in the debate, as I think it is important, as I said, that he takes part. Although a fixed day for Back-Bench business would give certainty, it would not necessarily overcome the particular problem of Ministers being unavailable on a fixed day for debates that are settled at short notice.

On the hon. Lady’s question, we have said that we will give proportionately more time to the Backbench Business Committee to reflect the longer Session. She will know from the business I have announced that the Committee is getting roughly one day a week. I said in response to her a few weeks ago that once we are through the main Report stages of the Government’s Bills, there should be more headroom in the remaining months of the Session to be more generous to the Committee with time.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

May I welcome the words of the Leader of the House on the importance of e-petitions leading to debates such as the one on Hillsborough? Does he agree that that also applies to the debate on the referendum, which he has brought forward to Monday? I welcome the fact that the Government have elevated the importance of that debate and recognise how important it is that the Foreign Secretary attends. Does the Leader of the House not also agree that these issues overlap with the core purpose of the coalition, which is deficit reduction and the need to obtain growth, and that growth can be revived in this country only if we are able to deregulate our economy and therefore renegotiate our relationship with the EU?

[Sir George Young]

We are committed to an agenda of deregulation. For example, there is the one-in, one-out rule; there is a deregulation unit working at the moment to see what further deregulation can be introduced; and we are working on the agenda of the report by Lord Young, introduced a year ago. I see no reason why we should not continue with that agenda and still remain full members of the European Union.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

We should not draw up the timetable for our business according to the convenience of Ministers; it should be about the convenience of this House. The Leader of the House has already committed in the coalition agreement to hand over the whole of our business to the Backbench Business Committee by the third year of this Parliament, which I reckon means—[Interruption.] Yes, it says “by” the third year; it does not say “in” the third year. I reckon that means that he has only 19 more sessions of business questions, so when will he bring forward the legislation or Standing Orders to ensure that we do hand over the whole of our business to the Backbench Business Committee?

[Sir George Young]

Unusually, the hon. Gentleman is wholly misinformed about the commitment in the coalition agreement. There is no commitment to hand over the whole of our business to the Backbench Business Committee.

[Chris Bryant]

Yes there is.

[Sir George Young]

There is not. There is a commitment to establish a House business committee alongside the Backbench Business Committee. We are committed to doing that, and we remain committed to doing it in the third year of the Parliament.

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

I am absolutely delighted—indeed, thrilled—that the Government are so keen to discuss the European Union that they have brought the business forward to Monday, but what will the Leader of the House say to those members of the public who might have preferred one or two more weeks to make their views perfectly clear to their MPs?

[Sir George Young]

Earlier in this session, the Backbench Business Committee was commended for scheduling the debate, which was going to be next Thursday and is now next Monday, so I find it difficult to reconcile what my hon. Friend says with the freedom that we have given to the Committee to respond promptly to e-petitions. The e-petition in question was started many weeks ago, and people have had adequate time to contact their Members of Parliament if they so wish to.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

May we have a debate in Government time on the work of the Electoral Commission? A report out today strongly criticises the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland for

“poor planning, insufficient communication and lack of an overall management plan”

for the counts during the Assembly elections, the referendum and the council elections held in May. Voters in Northern Ireland deserve the same high standards that apply elsewhere in the United Kingdom, so a debate would be very useful in focusing attention on those serious matters.

[Sir George Young]

I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s concern. I cannot promise a debate, but I will draw the attention of the Electoral Commission for Northern Ireland and, indeed, of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to the concerns that he has expressed.

[Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House join me in congratulating the People’s Pledge on pressing for a referendum on Europe and the debate on Monday? Does he agree that another advantage of having the Foreign Secretary here for Monday’s debate is that he will then be able to report the good news to our Commonwealth partners?

[Sir George Young]

That, if I may say so, was not the question I was expecting from my hon. Friend, but it is of course a much easier one, and the answer is yes, the Foreign Secretary will be able to pass on the views of the House when he goes to the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting later in the week.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

On 18 July, the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning announced that he was working with colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government and with the Association of Colleges on new forms of support for community-based ESOL—English for speakers of other languages—learning for those in settled communities who are not in receipt of eligible benefits, but colleges have had no funding for such courses since August. Will the Leader of the House arrange for an urgent statement from the Minister updating us on his discussions with CLG colleagues so that funding can be secured?

[Sir George Young]

I understand the importance of securing that funding for continuity of education. I cannot promise a statement, but I will contact my hon. Friend and ask him to write to the hon. Lady with a response to the important issue that she just raised.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

This Sunday a regular season National Football League American football game will be played at Wembley. During that game—[Interruption.] During that game, the NFL will honour our brave servicemen and women, and it is providing 500 free tickets for them. May we have a statement next week supporting that measure and encouraging other sporting events to do the same, and can we ensure that it is not on Monday. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Just before the Leader of the House responds, I note that there is quite a lot of sedentary chuntering about the inappropriateness of the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) having a prop. On the whole, we discourage the use of props in the Chamber, but it is fine for the hon. Gentleman to hold the ball or even to put it down—but not to do anything violent with it.

[Sir George Young]

If I may say so, Mr Speaker, you have been very generous. I remember a debate on oranges, when an hon. Member produced an orange and was severely rebuked for so doing, as it had the potential to be an offensive weapon.

I think that that is a generous gesture by the NFL, and it should be commended. My hon. Friend may know that the all-party group on American football had its inaugural meeting yesterday and was, indeed, addressed by my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House, so I applaud the initiative and hope that it is a very successful game at Wembley stadium on Sunday.

[Sir Alan Meale (Mansfield) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate before the Christmas recess on the Roma? Everyone in the House is aware of the alarming scenes that occurred yesterday at Dale Farm, and they have been viewed with despair by human rights organisations not only in the UK, but elsewhere. Will he also ask his colleagues in the appropriate Department whether they will take the issue with them into the presidency that we will shortly hold of the Council of Europe?

[Sir George Young]

I am not sure that the cause of the Roma was assisted by the scenes that took place yesterday; they may give a totally wrong impression to the one that the hon. Gentleman wants to give about the Roma community. There are provisions in the Localism Bill now going through the House to strengthen councils’ powers to ensure that such scenes do not happen again, and there is £60 million over the spending review period to help councils and other registered providers provide more sites, but it is important that the law is upheld, and no one should be beyond the reach of it.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

The Daylight Saving Bill, the Second Reading of which the House passed by 92 votes to 10 in December, has been held up for 10 months by the passage of its money resolution. The Bill is unable to make further progress until the Government table that resolution. Will the Leader of the House tell us when he intends it to be tabled so that the Bill can make further progress?

[Sir George Young]

I shall make some inquiries of the Treasury, whose consent would be needed for any money resolution, and when I have had that dialogue I will get back to my hon. Friend.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

When may we have a debate or statement on the situation in Yemen? As the Leader of the House knows, the Foreign Secretary has taken a resolution to the UN Security Council, and we are very grateful for that, but 94 children have now died, 300,000 people have been displaced and 30 schools in Sana’a are now occupied by the military. This is a political and humanitarian crisis. Please may we have a debate about it?

[Sir George Young]

I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s concern that, following the President’s return on 23 September, there would be renewed outbreaks of violence, and indeed there have been some very worrying incidents, with 110 people killed in clashes. We urge all parties to reach a consensus urgently on implementing a political settlement, leading to the formation of a national unity Government, the restoration of security and early elections. The right hon. Gentleman might like to ask the Backbench Business Committee whether it can hold a debate on that important issue.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

Given that the international aid budget is now about £8 billion and will rise to £13 billion during this Parliament, given the fact that one of the worst aid crises ever seen is happening in east Africa, with a record-breaking British response, and given the fact that the Government are leading the world on international development, is it not time that the Department for International Development joined the departmental top table, starting with an hour-long International Development Question Time?

[Sir George Young]

That is an interesting proposition and we would like to have discussions through the usual channels to see whether there is an appetite for it. However, any lengthening of a session for one Department of necessity means reduced time for another, so I should like to reflect on the hon. Gentleman’s proposition to see whether there is any flexibility.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

May we have a debate in Government time on the Sayce report and its potential impact on the Remploy organisation? The Remploy factory in my constituency has a first-class work force, and I am sure the same is true of its factories throughout the country. Such a debate would allow us to reach the right decision, which should be continued Government support for Remploy rather than unnecessarily throwing people on the dole.

[Sir George Young]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern about Remploy. I cannot promise a debate, but he might like to apply to Mr Speaker for a debate in Westminster Hall, or to the Backbench Business Committee, so that we can spend more time on these important issues.

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

May we have a debate on the whipping of Back-Bench business, given that there is now a three-line Whip for those on the Government Benches, a three-line Whip for the Liberal Democrats, and, within the past 30 minutes, a three-line Whip for those on the Labour Benches? Is it any surprise that the British public are increasingly frustrated that this place is more out of touch than ever on the European question with regard to their own opinions?

[Sir George Young]

Whipping matters, happily, lie in the capable hands of my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary, but I say to my hon. Friend that nothing in the manifesto on which I stood mentioned an in or out referendum. We stood on a manifesto of being in Europe but not run by Europe.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House has always been very helpful in trying to make sure that Ministers meet Members of this House, but may we have a statement on what is expected so that we can prevent the situation whereby a Minister in the other place said to one of my colleagues that he is rationing his exchanges with Members of Parliament and offered an official instead, which, I think the House would accept, is outrageous?

[Sir George Young]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern. The last time this was raised at business questions, I asked for a list of the Ministers who had declined to see hon. Members. I took it up with my colleagues, and I think we reached a resolution. I should like further details of the problems the hon. Gentleman mentions, and I will do what I can to resolve them.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

May we have a debate on political timing, in which I could try to persuade the Government why now is precisely the right time to hold a referendum on the European Union? It would give my right hon. Friend the opportunity to try to persuade me—in vain, I suspect—that a time when we are cutting domestic budgets is precisely the right time massively to increase our overseas aid budget.

[Sir George Young]

I think that my hon. Friend has rehearsed a speech that he might make on Monday if he succeeds in catching your eye, Mr Speaker.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House will have heard some of the questions on the collapse of the carbon capture and storage scheme at Longannet on the River Forth. Will he arrange for a debate in the Chamber or a statement on carbon capture and storage? The scheme moved from the River Don, where it was decided not to place it, to the River Forth. I have visited the scheme, and it is technologically workable. The pipeline will always be there, but using the North sea makes it necessary to put a pipeline in, and that will cost money. Surely the Government must explain what they are doing about carbon capture and storage and what the involvement of the Scottish Government is.

[Sir George Young]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern. I have just re-read the speech that my right hon. Friend the Energy Secretary made yesterday, which contained a big chunk on precisely this issue. He confirmed that the £1 billion was still available, and a number of other schemes are eligible. We have therefore debated this recently, and we have just had Energy and Climate Change questions.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

Is the Leader of the House aware of recent reports that the UK bioscience industry is returning to levels of economic activity not seen for quite some time, and should not this be the subject of a debate?

[Sir George Young]

I welcome the progress that is being made, and I am aware of my hon. Friend’s academic background in this area. I understand that, according to Oxfordshire Bioscience Network, county firms in the field attracted £125 million of cash—80% of the total for the whole of the UK. I applaud the work the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is doing to promote this area of growth.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

Earlier this week, the Luddites of Greenpeace achieved a judgment at the European Court of Justice disallowing the patenting of discoveries made where the basis was a human stem cell. This will put British science back for years and damage it enormously. It also increases the likelihood that people suffering from degenerative diseases will not get the cures they need in time. Will the Leader of the House allow a debate in Government time on this incredibly important issue?

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. There is a good leader in The Times today on this important subject asking what Greenpeace’s interest is in this area of science. Speaking purely personally, I am in favour of research that enables one to treat and prevent degenerative diseases. I will certainly contact my right hon. Friends to see whether there is any action we can take in the light of this decision.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

Lord Justice Scott Baker has now published his report into UK extradition arrangements, to which, worryingly, he seems to have given broad approval. Will the Leader of the House grant a debate so that this House can voice its opinion on the report and conclusions?

[Sir George Young]

I agree that it is an important report, and I understand the wide concern that exists. I cannot promise my hon. Friend a debate in the very near future, but he might like to try his luck with the Backbench Business Committee.

[Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)]

We now know that the former Defence Secretary’s private office and the permanent secretary knew that he was breaking the ministerial code. We are led to believe that the Cabinet Secretary and the Prime Minister did not know. May we have a statement on why they did not know and what action is going to be taken against the officials for not reporting this breach?

[Sir George Young]

We dealt with this at some length yesterday. The subject is covered by the Cabinet Secretary’s report, which addresses the issue raised by the hon. Gentleman and comes up with recommendations to ensure that if there is a recurrence the necessary steps will be taken and the Cabinet Secretary and, if necessary, the Prime Minister will be notified.

[Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)]

Darent Valley hospital in my constituency labours under one of the first private finance initiative arrangements in the national health service. Could Government time be allocated to discuss how we might best help hospitals that are held back by PFI arrangements that have not exactly stood the test of time?

[Sir George Young]

In some cases, it has been possible to renegotiate PFI arrangements, obviously with agreement on both sides. I will draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary to this issue and see whether there is any role for the Department or, indeed, the Government to play in helping to reduce the burden on this trust.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

The Department for International Development is rightly putting more resources into countries such as Somalia and Pakistan. However, the Public Accounts Committee is concerned about increased financial investment where there are problems of corruption and governance or where DFID has reduced its administrative capacity. May we have a statement on DFID and financial management?

[Sir George Young]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made it clear that his Department has zero tolerance of fraud and abuse. My understanding is that some 82% of fraudulent payments are recovered and that new systems have been introduced since June last year to reduce the likelihood of payments going astray. I know that in due course the Government will want to respond to the PAC report.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

May we have a debate on the amount of investment by businesses in the UK? We have very good examples such as Airbus, Rolls-Royce and Jaguar Land Rover, but there are examples from right across the country. I would particularly like to highlight the tourism and food manufacturing sectors in my constituency.

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It is important to keep a perspective on this. One tends to read disappointing news about closures, but that needs to be balanced by good news such as the investment of Jaguar Land Rover in Wolverhampton, strong order books at Airbus’s plant at Broughton, and the announcement by PricewaterhouseCoopers of a £20 million investment in Belfast. I welcome what my hon. Friend has said about getting a balanced debate on these issues.

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on the Prime Minister’s attitude to youth unemployment? Last week, the Prime Minister told me that the future jobs fund provided only phoney jobs. Since then, I have been inundated with young people getting in touch with me to tell me that they had found genuine employment through the future jobs fund. Does the Leader of the House agree that the Prime Minister should be a little more sensitive when talking about such matters?

[Sir George Young]

I am sure that the Prime Minister is always sensitive on issues such as youth unemployment, about which he cares deeply. The latest figures show that the number of 16 to 18-year-olds not in education, employment or training is falling. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome that. I hope that he will also welcome what we are doing with the Work programme to get people back into work.

[Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)]

Inspired by the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) to the Prime Minister yesterday, may I ask for a debate on the regional growth fund and the new jobs that will be created by the first tranche of £450 million that has been conditionally allocated?

[Sir George Young]

I welcome what my hon. Friend says. I think that the Leader of the Opposition was rather dismissive of the regional growth fund yesterday. The first £450 million has been awarded on a conditional basis to 50 companies. That is expected to create 27,000 jobs directly and more than 100,000 indirectly through associated supply chains.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I wonder whether I can persuade the Leader of the House to make this House even more relevant and to enhance its reputation by listening to the concerns of the people—mainly young people—who are clustered around St Paul’s in the City, and by debating in this House the particular concern about the growing chasm between the super-rich who make up 1% or 2% of the population and the ordinary people of our country. It would surely show the relevance of this Chamber if we spoke directly to those concerns.

[Sir George Young]

I hope that the House does address those concerns when it debates the economy, youth unemployment and education. Having listened to some of those outside St Paul’s, it does not seem to me that there is one coherent message. They have a range of objectives. Of course we should listen to them. It is a matter for the authorities of St Paul’s how long this goes on, particularly if it is impeding access to the cathedral.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

There has been no consultation so far with Church and faith groups on the Government’s proposals to introduce legislation for same-sex marriage. As the Leader of the House will know, the view of the Church of England on marriage is that which has been approved by Parliament in the Act of Uniformity 1662 and which is set out in the Book of Common Prayer: that marriage is an act between a man and a woman. When determining the business of the House, will he ensure that there is sufficient time for sensitive and considered consultation with Church and faith groups on this issue? If the principle is one simply of equity, is it also the Government’s proposal that different-sex couples will be able to enter into civil partnerships in church?

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I commend the work he does as Church Commissioner in this House. Next week, my hon. Friend the Minister for Equalities will start a range of discussions, including with religious organisations, about the consultation document on equal marriage, which we plan to publish in March next year. That will address some of the issues that the hon. Gentleman has spoken about. It is not the Government’s intention to oblige religious organisations to carry out ceremonies with which they feel uncomfortable.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on the new Tory thinking on benefits and pensions? It was reported yesterday in The Daily Telegraph that coalition Back Benchers sitting on the Public Accounts Committee have called explicitly for a further cut in the basic rate of state benefits that is used to calculate pensions. Given that Tory policy has created the current levels of inflation, will the Leader of the House comment on the new Tory thinking that wants to reduce the rate for benefits below the consumer prices index?

[Sir George Young]

The Government’s position on benefits was set out in the Budget last June. We made it clear that benefits and pensions should be linked to CPI. We have made firm commitments on that basis. There will be an uprating statement later this year in the light of the latest CPI and retail prices index figures.

[Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)]

A few moments ago in response to a question, my right hon. Friend described Conservative policy in the last manifesto of being

“in Europe but not run by Europe.”

He will remember a particular occasion on which he was standing for election, when he described himself as being somebody who was

“in the Conservative party, not run by the Conservative party.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 619.]

Does he think that the same principle could usefully be applied to the Back-Bench business on Monday?

[Sir George Young]

I think that the quotation that my hon. Friend refers to was made during one of the speakership elections in which I stood—in fact, I think that I said it in both speakership elections. Had I been elected, I would of course have stood by that. However, on Monday I think that we need to consider what we said in our manifesto. As I have said, there was no commitment to an in or out referendum, but there was a commitment not to transfer any more powers to Brussels. We have secured the referendum lock. I hope that he will listen to the Foreign Secretary’s speech on Monday and come to a conclusion in the light of the balance of the arguments.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Last week at business questions, I asked the Leader of the House about Crosby coastguard and the proposal by its staff to site the maritime operations centre there, which would save the Government a significant amount of money. His reply was that

“the Government are interested in all options that might save money”.—[Official Report, 13 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 488.]

I wonder whether he has had time to discuss this matter with his ministerial colleagues, and what the answer might be.

[Sir George Young]

Further to the hon. Gentleman’s question last week, I raised this issue with Ministers at the Department for Transport, who will write to him shortly. I can confirm that the Maritime and Coastguard Agency is considering all responses to the specific questions that were asked. Ministers will decide on a way forward very soon.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

During Prime Minister’s questions yesterday, the Opposition levelled the accusation that large numbers of people had not registered for further education colleges this year as a result of the abolition of education maintenance allowance. As it happens, I spoke last week to the principal of the excellent Gloucestershire college in my constituency. He told me that it was true that registrations had fallen sharply this year, but his research had shown that that was the result of a substantial increase in the number of pupils staying on for sixth form at schools. He was dealing with the EMA issue using a judicious combination of the Government’s new 16 to 19 bursary fund and the college’s subsidy. Will the Leader of the House ask an education Minister to research this issue and confirm whether the accusation was inaccurate?

[Sir George Young]

The bursary fund will give £400 more than was available under EMA to the most vulnerable students. It is worth reminding the House that EMA was paid to 45% of 16 to 18-year-olds in further education or training. Only one in 10 of those people said it was necessary for their continued participation, so there was a lot of dead-weight in EMA. The new arrangements are much more realistically targeted, and those in the greatest need are getting more than they would have received under EMA.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

The Deputy Prime Minister is in Cairo today making an announcement about £5 million of investment. With 49 people chasing every job vacancy in my constituency, 899 people under threat of redundancy at BAE Systems at Brough, and only two companies benefiting from the regional growth fund over the past 16 months, may we please have a debate in which the Deputy Prime Minister can announce to the House what investment he can offer to boost the economy in Yorkshire?

[Sir George Young]

I hope that the hon. Lady did not imply that the assistance that the Deputy Prime Minister has announced should not be given. I hope that she welcomes the increase in the budget of the Department for International Development. We had a debate on the economy last week in which there was an opportunity to raise these issues. She knows what we are doing through the Work programme, which is the most ambitious programme to get people back to work that we have ever seen. I hope that she will support the initiatives that will bring hope to people in her constituency.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

Following Monday’s short debate on Members’ pensions, does the Leader of the House plan to make a statement about when he intends to sign the order transferring responsibility for our pensions to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority for ever?

[Sir George Young]

I have signed the commencement order following the unanimous decision of the House on Monday to transfer responsibility for pensions to IPSA. IPSA now has responsibility for pensions, allowances and pay, and I think that that is the right place for all those things to be.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The Public Bodies Bill has significant implications for Wales, and not least for the future of S4C. Does the Leader of the House acknowledge that the Government are riding roughshod over the concerns that remain by leaving only 24 hours to table amendments? They have made these changes in the full knowledge that most Welsh Members are at the Welsh Grand Committee in Wrexham and are unable to protest here today?

[Sir George Young]

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, he has had two weeks in which to table amendments since the Bill came out of Committee. Only one amendment has been tabled. There is still adequate time for him to table amendments so that they can be considered on Tuesday.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Although I will defend for ever people’s right to protest and demonstrate peacefully, the growing encampment outside St Paul’s cathedral has residents who are clearly not available for work and should not be eligible for state benefits. May we have a statement from the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on what action the Government are taking to withdraw those benefits from people who are resident there?

[Sir George Young]

Everyone receiving benefits on the basis of unemployment, including people outside St Paul’s, is required to be available for, and actively seek, work. They must show that they meet those conditions when they sign on. If they cannot do that and have no good reason for failing to comply, they face a complete loss of benefit.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

There is ongoing concern in the House about the implications of the loss or misplacement of private documents in public places by the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin). So that we can assess accurately the scale of the problem that we face, may we have a debate on the literacy levels of tramps in public parks?

[Hon. Members]

They are royal parks.

[Sir George Young]

Royal parks, yes.

I say gently to the hon. Gentleman that an appropriate rebuke was administered and I am sure there will be no repetition of the incident.

[Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)]

Tomorrow I will meet an international development charity in my constituency called Cord, which has been doing fantastic work over the past 40 years in conflict-affected and fragile states such as Chad and Cambodia. Will it be possible to provide Government time for a debate on the work of our international development charities in the UK and how we can support them further?

[Sir George Young]

I support the work that Cord is doing not just in the countries that my hon. Friend mentioned but in Burundi, where it is helping those affected by HIV. I know that many such organisations are supported by the Department for International Development, which has a particular fund for such initiatives. I would welcome such a debate, but I am afraid I cannot promise one in the very near future.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

Next Tuesday, hundreds of young people and youth workers will lobby Parliament to save their youth services. Youth work is en route to being the first public service to disappear completely, and indeed in a number of places it already has. Please may we have an urgent debate in Government time on the disappearance of youth services?

[Sir George Young]

The youth service is an important service provided by county councils, and it is up to them to decide which of the resources that have been made available to them to put into it. Of course Ministers will be happy to respond to a lobby, but decisions on resource priorities are made by locally elected authorities.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

In my constituency we have a lot of manufacturing and engineering to celebrate, especially in the small and medium enterprise sector, but there would be more if we could just encourage banks to lend a little more to those firms. May we have some assurance that the credit easing that we are about to have really will reach those firms in a meaningful way?

[Sir George Young]

My hon. Friend is right. Ever since the 1930s we have had the so-called Macmillan gap, which is the absence of secure capital funding for small and medium-sized enterprises. Other countries, such as the US, have bonds that are available to small companies. Credit easing, more details of which will be available in the autumn statement, has as its objective not just helping SMEs to provide growth and employment but creating a new market in capital for them by possibly generating a new market in bonds.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Six hundred and fifty young people from all parts of the world were stunned by the sudden closure of the TASMAC London business school. Many of them had been asked to pay up front their fees not just for one year but for the full three years, and the company has now sought to go into liquidation. I have asked for an urgent meeting with the Minister for Immigration, because the Home Office insists that those young people have only 60 days to find a new course, pay new fees and establish their credibility as students in this country again. They have been victims of what many believe to be a serious fraud, and the Government need to treat them as such. Will the Leader of the House ensure that that will be done?

[Sir George Young]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will support the Home Office’s work to close down bogus colleges. I have great sympathy with those who find themselves in the position he describes, and I will contact my hon. Friend the Minister for Immigration to see whether there is any flexibility in the situation.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

May we have an urgent debate, or an urgent statement from the Secretary of State for Education, on schools’ capital funding? On the one hand the Secretary of State is supporting the setting up of a free school in Runcorn, but on the other many schools in Runcorn and Halton need capital investment, particularly the outstanding Heath school. That would have been taken care of under the previous Government’s Building Schools for the Future programme. May we have an urgent statement on the schools capital project?

[Sir George Young]

We had questions to Department for Education Ministers earlier this week. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was able to take part. I will certainly raise the issue with the Secretary of State and see whether we can make any progress.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am grateful to the Leader of the House and colleagues, because 45 Back Benchers got in in 41 minutes. It was great economy by Back and Front Benchers alike.

National Planning Policy Framework

Thursday 20th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Relevant documents: Uncorrected evidence to the Environmental Audit Committee, Sustainable development in the National Planning Policy Framework, HC 1480-i; and uncorrected oral evidence to the Communities and Local Government Committee, National Planning Policy Framework, HC 1526-i, with written evidence published by the Committee on the internet and HC 1526-ii.]

12:25

[The Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Greg Clark)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of the National Planning Policy Framework.

It is a pleasure to be able to discuss our draft national planning policy framework and to hear the contributions of Members from all parties.

I welcome the new shadow Secretary of State to our exchanges for the first time. He is the third shadow Communities Secretary in a year, and we hope he will be around a little longer than his predecessors. He is a regular fixture on Thursdays, and I know he will be much missed in business questions, but we are looking forward to his contributions over the months ahead. May I also recognise the contribution of the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint)? As we all know, she is a doughty political fighter and quite a political pugilist, but she has approached planning issues with a desire to find common ground and a pragmatism appropriate to the issue.

Planning transcends the life of any one Government and builds the foundation on which future generations will live their lives. That is why it is so important, and why we should take the opportunity to put in place a planning system that ensures that the countryside is available in the future for our children and their children as it is for us, that they have decent homes to grow up in and that they live in places that are safe and encouraging rather than threatening and miserable. Those are the purposes of the planning system, and it is important that we have a shared perspective on them.

Today’s debate comes from a commitment that I made to this House and the other place when we published the draft national planning policy framework in July. I think it is right to have Parliament debate the proposals, and we have all afternoon for the debate so that the many Members present can put their views and their constituents’ views on the record. The same debate will be held in the House of Lords in the week ahead, and of course the debates follow a 12-week consultation period that closed this week. There have been vigorous contributions from all sides—never has planning policy been so popular an issue for debate. Despite what people might think, I welcome that, because it is of prime importance and should be discussed in the open rather than the preserve of specialists. The idea that planning policy statements should simply appear having been discussed behind closed doors, rather than engaging people, is the wrong one. Scrutiny of them is a good thing.

[Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)]

It is absolutely right that we have an open and transparent debate. Will the Minister therefore explain in his speech the funds given to the Conservative party by property developers, and the secret meetings and breakfast meetings with them? What influence did they have on the drafting of the draft framework?

[Greg Clark]

I am very disappointed that the hon. Gentleman has taken that line. Property developers had no influence whatever on our draft policy framework.

Let me say something about the consultation in which we are engaged. The consultation closed on Monday, as Members will know. It would be neither fair nor legal for me to pre-empt the decisions that we will make in responding to the more than 10,000 responses that we received, as I am sure hon. Members will appreciate. Members might come up with brilliant suggestions and ideas in this afternoon’s debate, either by themselves or on behalf of their constituents, but I will be constrained from saying, “I agree with you; we’ll put it in,” or, “We’re minded to do that,” because that would prejudice our consideration of all the responses. Given that the consultation closed on Monday, Members will not be surprised to hear that I have not yet had time to review all the responses.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Let me say in a supportive way that we could have all the consultation in the world, but at the end of the day Ministers have to be brave, and that goes for every Minister I have known in my 30 years in this House. On the one hand, people want to protect their environment. On the other, 7 million people in this country need to be in decent housing, and there would be £2.5 billion-worth of infrastructure ready to be built—even for energy from waste—if the Government gave the go-ahead.

[Greg Clark]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, but it is important to tackle the fundamentals. That is why, following our commitment to review the planning framework, our analysis was that it needed a fundamental review, even though it would have been easy simply to tinker with it and make minor changes. That is why we have made the proposals that we have and why I wanted the fullest possible consideration. We will take all representations into account. I am convinced that we will have a planning system that everyone in this Chamber can be proud of, and that we will take this opportunity to create a planning system that offers future generations better prospects.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

Let me make some progress, and then I will of course give way to hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber.

Let me set out the reasons for our reforms in context, which relates to the point that the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) raised. The first and overriding objective is to put power in the hands of local people. Over the years, we developed arrangements in this country—most recently through the regional strategies—that sought to resolve issues outside what people thought of as their communities. I understand the reasons for that and I do not think that those efforts were ill-intentioned by any means. However, the consequence has been that many people in this country feel that planning is something that is done to them, rather than something that involves them. I am not alone in saying that: the problem was also recognised in our discussions in Committee on the Localism Bill. The last planning Minister in the previous Government, the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) said:

“I inherited the regional spatial strategies and quickly found that they had…few friends…what was clear to me…was that our regional spatial strategies and our approach to planning…was too top-down”.—[Official Report, 30 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 272WH.]

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

This is really about definitions. I asked the Prime Minister a question about that, and he said that the measures were about giving power to local people, but does the Minister think that local people and local authorities are the same thing? These measures will give power to local authorities and planning committees, not to local people.

[Greg Clark]

I am pleased that the hon. Lady has raised that point. We are indeed giving power to local councils, which are the democratically elected representatives of local people. We are also scrapping the regional strategies that impose decisions on them. Crucially, however, the Localism Bill—many Members participated in the debates on it—creates the legal right to a neighbourhood plan in any parish, town or neighbourhood below the local authority level. It is absolutely right that neighbourhoods should have that ability, which is part of our reforms.

[Bill Esterson]

My constituents have similar concerns to those of my hon. Friends about the Bill’s impact. The biggest issue in my constituency is protection of the green belt. I am sure that the Minister is aware of the legal opinion obtained by the Campaign to Protect Rural England, which says that green-belt policy

“could be undermined by the sustainable development presumption together with the expectation that applications should be approved unless there are adverse impacts to policies in the NPPF as a whole.”

I hope that he will take that opinion on board, or does he have an alternative legal opinion that counters what the CPRE has said?

[Greg Clark]

I will address that point explicitly later in my remarks. I might just say, however, that the hon. Gentleman’s predecessor in Sunderland—

[Bill Esterson]

indicated dissent.

[Greg Clark]

I do apologise; the hon. Gentleman is from Sefton. I will therefore not make the point that I intended to.

Let me continue the point about the importance of putting local people in charge. The British people are a pretty bolshie lot, and when we feel that we are being dictated to from above, the natural response is to seek to frustrate, thwart, resist and impede whatever is being imposed without enjoying the consent of the community. We know from this country and around the world that it is good practice to involve people in plan-making early and to allow them a genuine say in producing plans for their area, because then they will participate with enthusiasm. People are right to resist when bad planning is done to them, but when good planning is done with them, they will prefer to get involved and create positive places. That is why we are scrapping the regional strategies and the right of the Planning Inspectorate to rewrite local plans and why we are introducing compulsory pre-application scrutiny for major developments and neighbourhood plans to ensure a local voice.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

Local decisions by local councils are important, but may I draw the Minister’s attention to what has happened in my constituency within 48 hours of the consultation closing? The neighbouring local authority, Tendring, decided to allocate land for about 3,000 houses immediately adjacent to the borough boundary with Colchester, 2 miles away from the nearest community in Tendring. In other words, our neighbouring authority is putting its housing on Colchester’s doorstep. Who will make the decision there?

[Greg Clark]

My hon. Friend will understand that planning Ministers cannot comment on specific situations such as the one that he raises, for reasons that he knows. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) also knows perfectly well why that is not possible. However, over the years there have been examples of precisely such situations, which is why the Localism Bill will impose a legal duty on neighbouring authorities and other public bodies to co-operate, so that both authorities take into account the consequences for the neighbouring area’s infrastructure. That is an important test in the Localism Bill—indeed, it was strengthened by consensus with the Opposition—that will provide the kind of general protections that my hon. Friend seeks.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) and then make some progress.

[Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for everything that he is saying about delivering localism in planning, for which those of us on the Government Benches have campaigned over many years. We are therefore pleased to see it happening. However, does my right hon. Friend agree that the reason we have to make such fundamental changes is that the system we inherited was not fit for purpose? The top-down approach did not work, which is why we did not have the sustainable development that we should have had during the 13 years of the Labour Government.

[Greg Clark]

My hon. Friend is right, and that is now a shared view. As I have said, the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne has said that. Indeed, in our conversations about the Localism Bill, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), whom I congratulate on his promotion, also recognised that the regional approach would go and not come back. It has not worked for the reasons that I have mentioned: it sets people against the planning system.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

rose—

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

rose—

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

I want to make some progress, because lots of Members want to speak and I do not want to take up too much time. However, I will take some interventions a little later.

The first objective is to make the local plan central to what happens and to transfer power to local communities. That has to be crucial. However, if we are to put local councils and people in neighbourhoods in charge, it is essential that the policy context in which they operate is accessible. They have to be able to understand it. When I first started to review the planning policy statements and planning policy guidance notes over a year ago, I asked for them to be brought into my office. They had to be carried in—in boxes. It is not possible to put local councils and members in charge if they have to wade through more than 1,000 pages of national policy. The policy has accreted over time. It was not the intention of the previous Government or Governments before them to accumulate such a mountain of policy; it has grown up piecemeal over time. That is why—to respond to the hon. Member for Huddersfield, who has now left the Chamber—it was important to take the issue seriously and review the policy from first principles. That is what we have done to make it accessible. The proposals that we have received to boil it down and distil it reflect a consensus in the House and beyond. In the submissions that have come in from the groups outside the House, I have seen many detailed “track changes” comments, and none of the proposals departs significantly from the type and length of document that we are aiming for.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on having elevated the debate on planning policy, which is vital for the economic future of the country. May I also tell him, however, that all those who work in the planning system now need certainty? Will he move on as quickly as possible from the consultation to provide a definitive national planning policy framework, to give us that certainty?

[Greg Clark]

I will, and I will have more to say about that shortly.

[Derek Twigg]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

I want to make some progress, because this is principally an opportunity for colleagues to make speeches and contributions to the consultation.

We need to make planning policy accessible if we are to achieve our aim of putting local communities in charge. That is the purpose of our reforms. It is also important to consider the effects of the policy regime that we have established. I do not pretend that the planning system is the only factor behind the low levels of house building and the difficulties in commercial development that we have at the moment. That would clearly be wrong. There are also difficulties in accessing finance, for example; there is a shared recognition that that is an important factor at this time. It is important to recognise, however, that the planning system makes an important contribution.

I have been looking at the joint submission from Shelter, Crisis, Homeless Link, the National Housing Federation—representing social housing providers—and the Chartered Institute of Housing. It says that

“reducing the quantity of policy will help simplify the planning system, make it more accessible to all users and will remove a significant barrier to much needed development”

—in this case, in social housing. Recent statistics show that in the five years to 2010, real spending on planning, through planning applications, increased by 13%, while the number of applications fell by 32%. By my reckoning, that means that the average cost has risen by something like 66%. That is a factor.

[Mr Raynsford]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

May I just finish this point?

The British Chambers of Commerce has said that the system is

“too complicated, too costly and too uncertain. It creates mistrust…and holds back our recovery.”

With that breadth of analysis, it is important to recognise that the planning system is one of the factors that is leading to the silting up of the system.

[Mr Raynsford]

Does the Minister not recognise that, if he takes the period of five years from 2005 to 2010, which embraced the last two years of the boom before the crash and the three years of recession, he will inevitably get some pretty distorted outcomes? That is not a fair parallel. Does he also accept that, in 2007, the last year before the recession, the figure of 207,000 net additions to new housing was the highest for 20 years? It is therefore completely nonsensical of him to say that the previous system was not capable of delivering new housing.

[Greg Clark]

It will be obvious to the right hon. Gentleman that I am taking a long-term view. I have said explicitly that the faults that I have diagnosed relate to the long term, but he chooses to cite particular years. Looking at the whole life of the previous Government, from 1998 to 2010, the number of homes built and completed in England was lower than under any previous Government since the war. He is therefore alone in thinking that there is not a problem, and that we do not have a lower level of house building than is appropriate.

Let me outline the consequences of the problem for families. If we persist, over the long term, in building a far lower number of homes than the number of households that are being formed, the inevitable consequence will be poverty. People will have to spend more in rent and have less to spend on their children. It will also be more difficult for people to get on to the housing ladder for the first time. We know that the average age for first-time buyers who do not have assistance from their parents is now getting close to middle age, at nearly 40. We want people to be able to get on; we do not want them to have to make choices.

I received an e-mail from a member of the public, which stated:

“Being part of a couple with a 2-year-old son, living in a flat…we are desperate to buy a family home with a garden, but have little chance.

The social consequences of house prices being so high seem catastrophic to me—both parents being fixated on earning enough to pay for a mortgage, both too”—

the next word might be unparliamentary—

“for much of a social life, every…penny going on the mortgage with nothing left over for holidays that I took for granted as a child. We are currently having to decide whether to abandon our families and friends and go and live…where neither of us has lived before…or to stay in our flat, with our son unable to run around without the people underneath us banging on the ceiling!”

There is a problem for families that we need to address by changing the system and dealing with some of the long-term flaws. That is the purpose of this policy.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

I am with the Minister when it comes to abolishing the regional spatial strategies. They were authoritarian and anti-democratic in just apportioning numbers of houses to particular regions. I have concerns about the proposals, however. One of the factors in helping urban regeneration and the renaissance of our cities has been the prioritisation of brownfield land over greenfield land. The Minister is talking about poverty and the creation of new households, but those problems have to be dealt with in our cities. I am worried that his proposals will lead not to green-belt development but to green-land development at the expense of our cities. Will he comment on that?

[Greg Clark]

Of course I will. Let me turn to some of the concerns that have been raised, of which that is one. I shall preface that by saying that it is not our intention to change the purpose of the planning system. There has been some suggestion that the proposals represent a fundamental change in what the system is about, but they do not. They will, quite rightly, balance the environmental, the social and the economic, and there is no change in that regard, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has declared.

Let me turn to some of the concerns that have been expressed, including the definition of brownfield sites that the hon. Gentleman has just mentioned. It is true that the draft national planning policy framework does not use the words “brownfield sites”. However, that is not for the reasons that have been imputed to us. The reasons are rather more prosaic. Many Members will have participated in debates during the previous Parliament in which we discussed the fact that it was being presumed that gardens that had ended up being included in the brownfield definition were available to be developed. One of the first things that we did was to take them out of the definition.

[Natascha Engel]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

I am responding to the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer).

In the draft framework, we decided not to use what had been quite a crude definition. Another example—something that I did not know before—is that a china clay quarry in Cornwall apparently falls outside the definition of a brownfield site. Paragraph 165 of the national planning policy framework therefore contains a requirement on councils to allocate land of the lowest environmental value. That was suggested by the environmental charities. There have been representations to say that some strictly brownfield land that has been developed has, over the years, been put back into use to support nature, especially in our cities. That was the reason behind having a more environmentally based definition.

Without pre-empting the consultation, which would clearly be wrong, let me say that there have been suggestions that, because some people have got used to the word “brownfield”, they might appreciate some reference—some explanation—that links the policy to that. That is a representation that has been made, and given that it is our intention, for all the reasons that the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton suggests, to ensure that we bring back into use first land that has been derelict or previously developed and that makes a lesser contribution than green fields, that will be made absolutely clear when we respond.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

The planning framework also requires local authorities to bring forward an additional 20% spare land beyond the sites required to meet their five-year housing supply, so it is entirely possible that one sixth of all the land made available in the plan is not developed, while the rest of it is developed. We could therefore see development on land that is certainly not of the least environmental value.

[Greg Clark]

It is the Government’s clear intention that it should be the case, as it is a requirement to bring forward land of the least environmental value, but let me comment on my hon. Friend’s point about the sixth year, as it were. If we are putting local plans first and genuinely want a local plan that is sovereign and determines what will happen for the future life of a community, it must be deliverable, sound and accurate. What is known empirically across the country is that not every piece of land that is allocated turns out to be capable of development in the way anticipated. Sometimes there can be fewer homes developed on a site than originally thought, with an allocation for six or seven homes ending up with only four or five, for various reasons—perhaps a tree is subject to a tree preservation order, for example. There is always some fallout. The proposal in the consultation suggests that if we are to plan for the number of homes that are really needed—there is no longer any number being handed down from above—we have to anticipate some drop-off, so a buffer is necessary. It is not a requirement to build any more homes than needed; the purpose is simply to make the plan as accurate as it can be.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

rose—

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

I want to make some progress, as I want Members to able to contribute to the debate. Let me deal with a couple of important issues that have been raised about the definition of sustainability.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

I will give way to the Chairman of the Select Committee.

[Mr Betts]

Let me ask the Minister about the issue of 20%, as it is important to the context of building on land where that building will have the least environmental damage. If there is an extra 20%, will local authorities be able to prioritise which sites should be developed first within the 120% requirement? If not, it will be open to developers to cherry pick which sites they build on and it will be the land associated with the least environmental damage that will be left behind, as they will be the hardest sites to build on, while the greenfield sites will be built on first.

[Greg Clark]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point; it is exactly the intention that councils should be able to prioritise and to bring forward the lowest environmentally valuable sites first. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point.

[Natascha Engel]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

I want to make some progress, and the hon. Lady intervened earlier.

Let me say something about the definition of sustainability, which I know has attracted some interest. The definition that we have used is the one used by previous Governments. It is the Brundtland commission’s definition, which has stood the test of time. It has been suggested that it is a high-level definition, so there should be a further elaboration of it. Hon. Members will know that planning policy statement 1, for example, contains the Brundtland definition in one paragraph and includes an extra 10 lines referring to the sustainable development strategy. That has been part of the previous document and some organisations and perhaps some Members have suggested that we should make reference to the current version of the sustainable development strategy, the 2005 document.

[Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It appears that rumours are circulating that Colonel Gaddafi has been captured. If that is true, will you ask a Secretary of State or a Minister to make a statement to the House today?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

What I can say is that it is up to the Secretary of State to decide whether to make a statement. The point has been noted and everybody is aware of it. Has the Minister finished?

[Greg Clark]

That was more hope than expectation, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will finish shortly. I did not think anything more interesting would happen today than our discussion of the national planning policy framework, but I was clearly mistaken.

The Government have not revoked the sustainable development strategy of 2005. Members of the Environmental Audit Committee who interviewed me last week asked some questions about it and it is the subject of one of the suggestions that have been made in the consultation. Let me explain why it was not included in the draft as it stands. As I say, it has not been revoked or repealed in any way. It is simply a matter of whether a document produced in 2005 has the timelessness of the Brundtland definition.

It was necessary to update the 1999 strategy in 2005. Six years on, there are some respects in which thinking on sustainability has progressed. For example, there is the idea that the separate pillars of the economy, the environment and the social aspects of sustainability can be traded off, one against the other. Some people argue—and I think there is some merit in doing so—that that is a rather defensive position and that one should be looking for positive improvements to the environment, not simply to trade-off. That is very much the thinking in the Government’s natural environment White Paper, which talked of a net gain for nature. In response to the consultation we could listen to such representations, but let me say simply that our intention was to make sure that we are not stranded in our thinking when we might have a more progressive approach to sustainability.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

rose—

[Caroline Lucas]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

I am not taking any more interventions, as Mr Deputy Speaker has indicated that he thinks I have spoken for long enough.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

It was the Minister himself, not me, who said that he would be brief in order to allow Back Benchers to contribute. The Minister may carry on.

[Greg Clark]

You are correct and punctilious, Mr Deputy Speaker, in holding me to my commitment.

Let me deal with another issue of concern—transitional arrangements.

[Derek Twigg]

rose—

[Greg Clark]

I am taking no more interventions.

It follows from everything I have said about the purpose of these reforms, which is to advantage local plan-making by putting local communities in charge rather than have planning dealt with by appeal through the planning inspectorate, that in the transitional arrangements we will put in place—again, in response to the consultation; we have had many representations on what they should be—we will be clear that no local council or authority that has developed a plan that expresses the future of its community will be at all disadvantaged. We are not going to take decision making from them. Part of the transitional arrangements will ensure that the community is advantaged rather than disadvantaged from the outset. It would pre-empt the consultation if I were to say which suggested approaches we favour, but I make the commitment to the House that we will safeguard and strengthen the ability of local councils to be in charge of their own destiny rather than the reverse.

As was recognised by the hon. Member for Huddersfield, this debate has provided an opportunity for every Member to participate in the reform of a planning system that, over time, had lost its capability of delivering its purpose of planning for communities in a way that we all want. The reforms are necessary to make sure that we have an environment that our future generations can cherish as we do. It is important to give voices to people in communities and, for all the reasons I mentioned about sustainability, it is important to improve and enhance our environment and to restore habitats where we can do so. We also want to improve the standards of design, which have turned many people against development. We also want, of course, to deliver the jobs and homes that the next generation needs, but not at the expense of these important aspects of the environment that we cherish.

I look forward to hearing the contributions of hon. Members this afternoon and to reading all the responses to the consultation that have been made. At the end of this process, I say to every hon. Member, we will have a planning system that reflects the best endeavours and the best intentions of everyone who wants to contribute positively to this process. It will be something of which we can be proud for future generations.

12:59

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Like the Minister, I would like to express my appreciation to my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint). I thank her and my hon. Friends the Members for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) and for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) for their work on the Opposition Front Bench in holding the Government to account. I also welcome my hon. Friends the Members for Warrington North (Helen Jones) and for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) to the shadow Department for Communities and Local Government team. Alongside them, and on either side of me today, we have continuity in the form of my hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) and for Derby North (Chris Williamson).

I welcome today’s debate. I am sorry that the Secretary of State did not open it—although he has done us the courtesy of attending—because given that he is seeking, with the Minister, to make the most fundamental change to our planning system for more than two generations and given that this is the first opportunity for the House to debate the matter since the publication of the national planning policy framework, it would have been good to hear from him. I look forward to the next occasion. Nevertheless, this debate, which we welcome, is extremely timely. The Minister expressed it well: planning at times and to some people can seem rather technical, but in fact it is about how we shape the places in which we live and how we build our communities. That is what Civic Voice has described as “everyday England”.

We know that there is a finite quantity of land. As Mark Twain famously said,

“buy land because they’ve stopped making it”.

There are many competing demands on land. England is a very densely populated country, and the population is growing. The planning system’s job is to help us to meet our future needs for housing, jobs, economic development, transport, growing food, tackling climate change and generating energy in a way that balances all these things—the right sort of development in the right place, which, in the end, is what we all want—while protecting the natural environment, by which I mean the moors and the mountains, the rivers and the lakes, the green fields and the countryside that make up our islands’ unique and beautiful landscapes. They matter because we cherish their beauty and their capacity to lift our spirits and because, as human beings have belatedly learned, they sustain our very existence. We need planning to protect this environment because, in the absence of that balance and if we fail to reconcile

“competing economic, social and environmental priorities”—

in the words of the Conservative planning Green Paper—there would be a free-for-all.

I welcome the idea of simplification and the principle of greater clarity, and I support enabling planning decisions to be taken as near as possible to those whom they will affect. It was, after all, a Labour Government who introduced the Town and Country Planning Act 1947, which helped local councils to designate green belt. However, the central problem raised by the draft NPPF and the reason the Government are in difficulty is that Ministers have failed so far to convince people that they have got this balance right. It seems that even Conservative-controlled Tunbridge Wells borough council, which is the Minister’s own local authority, is unhappy about his reforms. It is reported that the council “strongly disagreed” with the Government’s suggestion that the NPPF had the right approach towards sustainable development—I shall return to that point—and argued that it was

“vague and open to interpretation”.

The council also strongly disagreed that green belt would be protected under the NPPF. People are entitled to ask, if the Minister is having difficulty persuading his own Conservative-controlled council to support his plans, how anybody else can be expected to have confidence in them.

[Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)]

We are fortunate in Newcastle-under-Lyme and Stoke-on-Trent to have a robust local core spatial plan. I do not know whether that applies to Tunbridge Wells, but much of the country does not have such a plan. Is there a case for arguing that the Government should take a considered pause in the implementation of the framework and resource councils sufficiently so that they can put local plans in place?

[Hilary Benn]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. I shall come to it later because it is fundamental to the likelihood of what the Government say that they want to achieve—few would disagree with the ambition—actually happening, given the nature of the framework and the issues with its implementation.

[Alok Sharma]

I am delighted that the right hon. Gentleman agrees with much of what my right hon. Friend the Minister has said. The right hon. Gentleman is implying that there was a golden age of sustainable planning under the Labour party, but clearly that was not the case. Does he agree that reducing the planning policy document from 1,000 pages to fewer than 100 pages will be good news for encouraging what we all want to see—more sustainable development in this country?

[Hilary Benn]

The planning policy that we all inherited had great strengths and evolved over time. My concern is that, as was argued by others during the consultations, in reducing the amount of guidance, we might end up not with greater clarity, but with greater uncertainty. In the end, all words will be argued over by developers, considered by local authorities and ultimately determined by the courts.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman seems to be indicating that he favours the previous Labour Government’s approach of the regional spatial strategy. Is that Labour party policy?

[Hilary Benn]

I am interested that the hon. Gentleman reads that into my remarks. I shall say something about that in a moment. The RSS had its strengths but also its weaknesses, and we have to be perfectly honest about that.

[Natascha Engel]

I want to return to the point about confusion in the Government’s message. Does my right hon. Friend think that it would help if, when people asked the Government about greenfields, they did not respond by talking about green belt? They are completely different.

[Hilary Benn]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely powerful point. Such responses created considerable concern while the NPPF was being considered.

[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is most unfortunate that my Labour-led borough council in Broxtowe has not only accepted the RSS target figure of 6,000 new houses, which means that 4,000 houses will be built on my green belt in Broxtowe, but is not waiting for the Localism Bill or the framework, which will protect the green belt? Will he speak to the Labour party in Broxtowe, urge it to pause and accept the Localism Bill and abandon the RSS targets that his Government laid down?

[Hilary Benn]

It sounds like the hon. Lady is describing localism in action. If the Government say that local councils should be able to take their own decisions—that point was made forcefully by the Minister—Government Members should accept that as a way of proceeding.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Hilary Benn]

I am going to make a little more progress.

The ham-fisted way in which aspects of planning policy have been handled by the Government has been entirely of their own making: parts of the policy were drafted in a rush; they did not listen properly to advice; they have created uncertainty—hence the result of the consultation and the need for clarity—and, most disappointingly of all, they responded initially to criticism with retaliation. That is quite some achievement. In this respect, as in others, the Government cannot help going too far, too fast.

The Government have got themselves into this position partly because of the difficulties with their economic policy, which is central to planning reform. Everyone can now see confidence plummeting, unemployment rising, growth grinding to a halt and nothing like enough private sector jobs being created to replace those being lost in the public sector, even though we were promised last year that that was what would happen. Worst of all, however, in the face of this failure, the Government have no plan to put it right. There are some in government, not so much in DCLG but elsewhere, who have blamed the planning system for a lack of growth, even though, over the past 60 years—to respond to the point made by the hon. Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma)—it has helped our country to build many new homes, to establish many new businesses and shops and to undertake a great deal of development.

No one is going to say that the planning system is perfect or that it cannot be improved upon—decisions could certainly be made quicker. However, given that the Government’s own impact assessment makes it clear that 85% of planning applications were approved in 2009-10, it is hard to see how it can be described as a system that stands in the way of economic growth. What worries people when they read the NPPF is the possibility that it will usher in a “big bang” development free-for-all, which no one in the House would want.

[Derek Twigg]

The Government did not explain exactly what they meant by giving communities a greater say. Most of my constituents who have written to me on the subject fear that they will actually give business a greater say. One of my constituents asked, “Would what the Government are doing have stopped the housing development down the road to which I objected?” Will the Government be giving communities more power to stop development? Most people who contact me want to stop it rather than support it. Are the Government creating a smokescreen by saying that they will give communities a greater say, rather than actually giving them greater power to determine the outcome of applications?

[Hilary Benn]

My hon. Friend has raised an important point. There are those who think that neighbourhood planning will give them the opportunity to reduce the number of houses planned for the areas in which they live—this takes us back to the point made by the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry)—but I understand from the NPPF that it is a one-way lock. A neighbourhood plan cannot say, “We would like to have fewer houses than proposed by the local plan”; it can only say, “We would like to have more houses”. People who have seen neighbourhood planning as a potential way of doing what the hon. Lady wants to be done will find themselves rather disappointed.

Under the current system—I want to recognise its strengths—councils have granted developers planning permission for 300,000 new homes that have not yet been built. Why have they not been built? It is clearly not the fault of the planning system, which has done its bit. What are the Government doing about the fact that the number of new homes built in England in the first year under the coalition was the lowest for at least 20 years, and about the fact that plans for 200,000 new homes have been abandoned since their election because of the chaos and uncertainty created by their planning proposals? That is but one example of the way in which the Government’s draft framework is leading to confusion.

The Government hope that planning reform will help growth to get going again, and we all want that. However, their actions in rushing reform in a way that has lost people’s confidence and hurrying to try to abolish the regional spatial strategies have led to uncertainty among planners, councils, developers and the courts. As a result, the system may slow down while everyone works out what the new words mean.

[Bill Esterson]

I am sure my right hon. Friend agrees that retaining the “brownfield first” policy, under which the proportion of property built on brownfield increased between 1989 and 2010, is the answer to many of the current problems. It would, for instance, solve the problem raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), whether it applied to green belt or greenfield. Does he think that one of the reasons for its absence is the attachment of developers— who, in my constituency, have been buying up land in both green belt and greenfield—to the Conservative party?

[Hilary Benn]

The developers must speak for themselves, but I cannot understand why the Government have abandoned what was a very successful “brownfield first” policy. The fact that they have done so has raised public concerns.

Public confidence is very important. We all accept that the planning system needs public support in order to work. Let me say, with all respect, that describing those who have expressed genuine concerns about the draft NPPF, including such well-known revolutionaries and radicals as the National Trust—I suppose that I should declare my membership of that radical and revolutionary organisation, as should other right hon. and hon. Members—as “semi-hysterical”, “left wing” and guilty of “nihilistic selfishness” was a profound mistake on the part of Ministers. Even worse was the accusation that the criticism was

“a carefully choreographed smear campaign”.

What were Ministers thinking of? Is it because they are so out of touch that, instead of listening and responding to what people were saying—as, in fairness, the Minister has today—they chose initially to attack while bulldozing onwards? That is the very opposite of what the public expect in the way of balanced discussion and proper consultation.

Nor, as the Minister knows, are the accusations true. For example, both the National Trust and the Campaign to Protect Rural England have supported housing development, in some cases on greenfield land, because they thought that it was the right thing to do. This is not about people who want no development at all; it is about the Government’s recognition that the way in which they approached the matter at the outset was a mistake. We need only look at the size of the petitions that have been received to see the extent of the concern that is felt. It is fair to say that recently, including today, we have observed a more emollient tone, and I for one welcome that; but it is not before time.

It is clear that, having gone about this in the wrong way to start with, the Government will have to make some big changes in the right direction. Paragraph 14 of the NPPF contains the

“presumption in favour of sustainable development”

that was originally announced in the Chancellor's “The Plan for Growth” in March, which also used a phrase—

“the default answer to development is ‘yes’”

—that is repeated in paragraph 19 of the NPPF. That has created a lot of anxiety, because it suggests decision-making that is automatic rather than considered and because, in the words of the National Trust, it constructs “a fundamentally unbalanced system”.

[Caroline Lucas]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the

“presumption in favour of sustainable development”

will make it considerably harder to refuse environmentally damaging development, even when it harms sites of special scientific interest? Would it not be helpful for the Government to say today that they would rule out planning for any kind of development on SSSIs?

[Hilary Benn]

That point has been raised by a number of organisations in response to the consultation, and I shall put a specific point to the Minister about it shortly.

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Hilary Benn]

I have given way a number of times already, and I am anxious to make progress.

Given the primacy of the sustainable development presumption in policy, given that so much flows from it, and given that no one in the House wants development at any price, the Government need to get the definition of sustainable development right. The Environmental Audit Committee has already made clear its view on which definition should be used. As the Minister will know, in a report published in March, it called for the inclusion of the five internationally recognised principles of sustainable development that were set out in the 2005 sustainable development strategy, which, as I recall, the then Opposition supported at the time, as I do now.

I listened carefully to the argument presented by the Minister today, and I hope that the Government will bear it in mind when they produce their revised draft, because there is a risk that in the absence of a complete definition, there will be more argument about what the term means. The last Government, with support from the then Opposition, replaced the original Brundtland definition with the 2005 definition, and I was not persuaded by what the Minister said about why that should not endure in time. If we stick with it, it will be well understood and enduring.

[Mr Raynsford]

I strongly agree with what my right hon. Friend is saying. Does he agree with me that it is necessary not only to have a proper and full definition of sustainable development, but to establish a link between it and the operational principles that govern the handling of planning applications? That point was made very well by the Town and Country Planning Association in its submission. The absence of operational principles allowing implementation of the overall definition is one of the greatest weaknesses of the current NPPF draft.

[Hilary Benn]

I agree with my right hon. Friend. I am sure that the revised draft will be a slightly longer document, but the existence of a bit more material sometimes assists decisions in the planning process rather than making them more difficult.

I do not know whether the Minister has seen the CPRE legal opinion, issued by a respected planning QC, but it addresses this very point about the definition of sustainable development. The QC argues that

“there is an ambiguity which permeates the NPPF, and which is likely to lead to uncertainty in its application, with a consequent increase in the number of appeals.”

None of us wants that. This serves as a powerful argument that the Minister should reflect on possible changes, as he has undertaken to do.

[Mark Pawsey]

The issue of sustainable development comes into play only in the absence of a local plan. Does the right hon. Gentleman therefore agree that Government and Opposition should come together to encourage local authorities to get their local plan in place early?

[Hilary Benn]

The NPPF says that in the absence of such a plan there should be a presumption in favour of sustainable development, but regardless of whether there is a local plan, someone must still decide about what constitutes sustainable development.

The second issue I want to address is the choice of land for development. There are many competing pressures, and we want to protect as much green space as possible. That point was made eloquently in this week’s Westminster Hall debate initiated by the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry).

Because of our heritage, we have a lot of previously developed brownfield land and, building on the foundations laid by a previous Conservative Government, Lord Prescott created the “brownfield first” policy. It was very successful. Last year, 76% of new dwellings were built on brownfield sites, up from 55% in 1989. We need only look at the centre of cities like Leeds and Manchester to see that it is working, or consider that in the last decade the proportion of new homes built on the green belt fell from 4% to 2%. It is estimated that there are almost 62,000 hectares of brownfield land in England that are ready for building on, which would be enough to build about 1.2 million homes.

The Minister appears to argue that a

“land with the least environmental or amenity value”

approach is the same as this “brownfield first” policy. If that is the case, why change it? If it is not the case, then we can understand why people are worried. Indeed, the Government’s own impact assessment refers to

“removing the target and the priority for brownfield development”.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Hilary Benn]

I have given way to the hon. Gentleman before, and I want to make some progress.

I cannot understand why the Government wish to get rid of the “brownfield first” policy. It is simply wrong to let undeveloped land, including greenfield sites, be used while old buildings and previously developed land in our towns and cities are available. I hope the Government will reinstate that policy.

Another reason why the removal of this policy has caused so much concern is the worry that green belt and other green land will be put under greater pressure as a result. The Minister has denied that, but that confidence is not shared by others. Existing planning policy—planning policy statement 4—states that:

“Local planning authorities should ensure that the countryside is protected for the sake of its intrinsic character and beauty”.

There is also a presumption against inappropriate development in the green belt. I hope that both those points will be fully reflected in the revised draft. That would, after all, be consistent with what the Minister said today about the Government’s natural environment White Paper and the value of nature.

I ask the Minister to address the following questions. Has he seen the CPRE’s legal opinion, which argues that the new formulation of words may weaken green belt protection? I accept that the legal argument is quite technical, but it makes the point about uncertainty and it deserves an answer.

[Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Hilary Benn]

No, I am going to draw my remarks to a close, as many Members wish to contribute to the debate.

Has the Minister seen the legal advice of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds that the draft NPPF would weaken protection for sites of special scientific interest? Will he therefore consider including SSSIs in the protection provided by paragraph 16 of the framework?

In respect of development, where would the Government’s alternative to the “brownfield first” policy leave agricultural land where someone seeks to argue that it has low environmental value? We need an answer to that. I also hope the Government will reinstate the “town centre first” policy, as removing office development from the sequential test is the wrong approach.

The framework must support affordable housing. As currently drafted, it implies that affordable housing can be traded off to make a scheme more viable. What is an “acceptable return” for landowners and developers? That is not defined, so who will make that judgment?

Turning to the important question of how this will all be implemented, because of the speed with which the Government want to introduce their new policy, there is a risk that local councils’ own development frameworks will not be ready in time. They might therefore be considered out of date or unclear, and people worry that communities might be left with little protection from developers because of the proposed presumption in favour of sustainable development. That is because paragraph 14 instructs councils to:

“Grant permission where the plan is absent, silent, indeterminate or where relevant policies are out of date.”

Only about half of councils have already drawn up local plans. What assessment has the Minister made of how long it will take all councils to get their plans in place, especially given the cuts in the number of council planning staff? In essence, the worry is that in the absence of proper transitional arrangements, a Bill that everyone has been told will put them in charge of decisions about development may leave them powerless in the face of developers because of the sustainable development presumption. I welcome what the Minister has said today, but he will have to do something about the implementation timetable.

Other issues will also have to be addressed. How will “silent”, “indeterminate” and “out of date” be determined? Will that ultimately be up to the courts? How will the duty to co-operate work in practice? One of the weaknesses in the NPPF is that no one knows what that means, apart from there being a duty to talk. This is important, of course, because planning issues to do with transport and other infrastructure extend beyond the boundaries of a single local authority. We also note that one part of England will retain a regional plan: London.

Why does the NPPF say that supplementary planning guidance cannot add to the cost of development? Where does that leave design standards, for instance? The Minister has spoken eloquently about the importance of good design, and I agree with him. Where does that leave policies for conservation areas, too, especially as they could not be said

“to bring forward sustainable development at an accelerated rate,”

which is the circumstance under which such costs are allowed? We need some clarity on this issue.

We do not want to end up with the planning system becoming increasingly combative, rather than consensual, and with applications being decided by the courts—although the courts can already take account of the draft NPPF because it can be seen as a material consideration. We are currently awaiting the Select Committee reports, but will the Minister say whether he intends there to be a further period of consultation after publishing a revised draft? That would be very welcome and would offer reassurance. Does he also intend to enable Parliament to vote on these proposals, as it should? We are changing 60 years of planning policy—we are changing the post-war planning settlement—in a way that many have concerns about, and the Government should not fear a vote in the House.

Ultimately, planning should be about helping us to find the right balance for the places in which we live and the landscapes upon which we walk. We support a streamlined and effective planning system, but it needs to make all of us feel that we can shape those places and care for that landscape. We need to feel it takes account of our need for homes, jobs and businesses to be backed, and for a countryside that we can all cherish.

Ultimately, when we leave to one side all of the words, paragraphs, material considerations and statutory obligations, the aim is to find that balance. I hope Ministers will listen to the debate that is raging on these proposals—we need only look at the number of Members wishing to speak today—because a profound change is worth making only if it makes for a better system and a better land.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. May I remind Members that there is an eight-minute time limit on speeches?

13:29

[Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con)]

It is an honour to be called so early in this important debate, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I wish to start by saying how much I salute the Government’s aims in making planning more accessible for all. Most residents, and even some councillors and MPs, myself included, find the current complexity of the canon of planning law impenetrable. The existing planning system has not worked. It has not managed to deliver the number of new homes we need, nor has it been flexible enough to meet the needs of business. Of course it has also generated an enormous amount of suspicion and hostility. Last month, my local council voted to withdraw its local development framework after the planning inspector, on the basis of the existing legislation, explicitly instructed it to include more greenfield sites in its plan.

[Duncan Hames]

Does the hon. Lady agree that the Government will have failed to achieve greater localism through their reforms if we end up with more decisions being made by planning inspectors in that way?

[Rebecca Harris]

I absolutely agree. I very much want decisions to be much more locally based. That inspector’s demand would have resulted in a crazy oversupply of land and it caused uproar in the local community, and I am indebted to my local councillors for the withdrawal. It seems that the inspector had been very much persuaded by the counsel of the large-unit developers that the council had failed to provide enough deliverable land in the first years of its plan, despite the fact that it had allocated a good quantity of land on previously developed sites to meet its current targets.

The existing system in this country requires councils to allocate sites for which they have evidence that the building can take place within the first five years and then within the second five years. After that, there is up to a decade or so of supply of more safeguarded land. However, I have watched the processes at first hand and it strikes me that what counts as evidence in planning circles is often simply argument—often that of the large-unit builders.

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head in relation to planning inquiries: Swindon has had similar experiences of this, as have I. Does she agree that it is essential that in the new policy framework the concept of deliverability is construed in a way that allows local authorities to argue before planning inspectors that economic realities often mean that although on paper it may not look as though they have a five-year land supply, they in fact do. That is particularly relevant to Swindon.

[Rebecca Harris]

I very much take that point. It is often much easier to argue that a very attractive, leafy, virgin greenfield or green-belt site can be brought forward in the early stages of the plan and it is always easier to argue that the previously developed or the brownfield sites, possibly in multiple ownership—

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

I apologise for stopping the hon. Lady in mid flow. Does she accept that the Government’s new homes bonus policy militates in favour of councils providing and supporting greenfield development, because they will get more money back as a result of doing so?

[Rebecca Harris]

I am not sure that it does. The new homes bonus gives something new to councils to help them to bring forward brownfield sites, because they will have an incentive to do so through a reward—I will come on to discuss that.

The system has expressly driven greenfield and, in my area, green-belt development, almost irrespective of how much less environmentally sensitive land there is in a council area. That contradicts the previous Government’s boast that they had a genuine town centre or brownfield-first policy in the past decade. The system we have had could best be described not as a planning system but as an allocation system, with allocations made on the basis of the sites that best suit the business model of the developers, not the needs and aspirations of local communities. Despite two Treasury-led Barker reviews, it was comprehensively shown that that approach to planning failed to deliver the number of new homes that we desperately need, even during a housing boom. The added irony is that in practice land was often just land-banked for developers, as happened in my constituency, making a mockery of the stated objective of bringing these sites forward in the early part of the process.

The current draft national planning policy framework maintains a requirement on councils to show “deliverability” and “developability”, which means evidence that sites will come forward. I appreciate that the Government are clear about their intention to protect the green belt, and I wholeheartedly welcome that, as do my constituents. However, I strongly believe that their final document needs to make it much clearer to councils that they will now have a duty to work a lot harder to bring forward previously developed land first and will not be able to fall back on green belt land, as happened in the past. As I said, the new homes bonus now gives councils the confidence to invest in working harder to do that by aggressively packaging their brownfield sites and dealing with empty properties. I hope that it will be very clear to councils that they should take this much more proactive, positive approach to planning in the future. They should not just allocate sites and sit back and see what happens.

I want the Government to go even further: I would like them to drop the requirement to plan for so many years ahead. I appreciate that the industry will say that it needs certainty and possibly therefore needs to have certainty of supply for 16 or more years, but I can see that as being of benefit only for those who wish to land bank. Economic and social conditions in an area can change enormously over that time frame and the requirement to make decisions for so many years ahead may cause more consternation, opposition and planning blight needlessly. It paints a picture for communities of huge housing expansion, which may never happen. It is therefore perfectly practical, and in no way detracts from the emphasis on a plan-led process, to have councils working on a rolling five-year basis. They would then be working much more on the basis of evidence, and much less on the basis of supposition and what I consider to be argument. Plans would be based on fewer assumptions, could be much more responsive to local community needs and economic changes, and would certainly generate less suspicion and opposition.

I also appreciate that the Government have said that they will introduce some form of transitional measures to protect councils from speculative applications by builders while we are between the two planning regimes. The transitional arrangements will have to take into account the fact that a lot of local authorities have been working on their previous local plans and have a bank of published evidence that they have put together to meet the demands of those previous plans and the previous housing targets. I fear that that so-called evidence, which, as I have argued, is sometimes just argument, could be used by developers to try to prove a presumption in favour of sustainable development for their sites in future. So the transitional arrangements will need to protect councils from that risk during the period between the two documents. The draft NPPF rightly allows councils to re-evidence their proposed local plans and base housing need on relevant local factors. I hope that it will be made very clear to them that they also should do so.

In conclusion, I congratulate Ministers on wiping away this very damaging legacy from the previous Government’s planning regime and ensuring that, in the spirit of localism, local people have a chance to shape their neighbourhoods on the basis of accurate and true local need. There is a wider legacy left from the former planning regimes and the final document needs to be careful to address that.

13:37

[Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)]

I welcome the new draft national planning policy framework’s stated aim of reducing the bureaucratic burden of development by simplifying and reducing national planning policy and guidance, and promoting sustainable growth. However, although I support the aims, I have concerns that some important aspects have been lost or watered down, which could have a negative long-term effect on future planning decisions.

I wish to focus my remarks on the importance of retaining and enhancing traditional street and covered markets, and to express my concern that there is no mention in the new framework of the important role that such markets can play in promoting healthy communities and sustainable town centres. Markets are the original high streets; they are places where people come together to buy and sell goods, meet each other, catch up and enjoy a sense of community in a public place. Stockport has sustained a traditional market, which recently celebrated its 750th anniversary. It is situated in Market place, which is itself of historic interest with the recently refurbished market hall and Staircase house.

As well as being a source of food and goods, markets provide jobs, opportunities for social interaction and an important public space that can be used for concerts and other community events. Many big names, such as Marks & Spencer, started off on market stalls, and markets have always provided an opportunity for business start-ups. The latest innovation from the National Market Traders Federation, endorsed by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, is a new initiative called First Pitch, which encourages budding entrepreneurs to try their hand at market trading. In Stockport, like elsewhere, there are many empty shops, so once traders involved in First Pitch have established themselves they can perhaps could move their businesses into those shops, thus benefiting town centres as a whole.

Town centres, like markets, are facing challenges from out-of-town shopping centres and internet shopping, which have undoubtedly taken their toll. If town centres cease to be attractive to shoppers, markets in those town centres will suffer, but if markets cease to be attractive, the town centres will suffer. They complement each other.

I was pleased to attend this week’s meeting of the all-party group on town centres, chaired by the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), who, I know, has a strong interest in the regeneration of town centres and in markets. It was very interesting to listen to the guest speaker, Mary Portas, who has been asked by the Government to conduct an independent review on the future of the high street. I look forward to her report.

I strongly believe that it is no use blaming out-of-town shopping centres or the internet. We must recognise that shopping habits are changing and people will make choices about where they shop. All town centres will have to think innovatively and consider developing their own unique “special offer”. I look forward to Mary Portas’s thoughts on that.

I know that Stockport is very much focused on just that and I believe that it could, in future, develop a unique special offer based on cultural and historical sites and on continuing to develop its market. It is important that Stockport does that because it faces competition from nine other shopping centres in Greater Manchester. I welcome the support for markets from the previous Government and from this Government and the Minister responsible for markets, the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell)—and Hazel Grove is in Stockport.

The current planning policy statement 4 contains an express statement supporting the role of and investment in markets. It states that local planning authorities should proactively plan to promote competitive town centre environments and provide consumer choice by retaining and enhancing existing markets and, where appropriate, re-introducing or creating new ones and ensuring that markets remain attractive and competitive by investing in their improvement. That is not in the new planning policy framework and although I understand the need to reduce the volume of policy and guidance documentation, I would still urge the Minister to put in an express reference to the role of markets in contributing to retail diversity and to healthy and sustainable high streets and town centres—including farmers markets, which bring an important sense of place by providing foods that come specifically from the local area.

Traditional street and covered markets have been at the hub of our town centres for centuries and they are well able to adapt to the challenges of the future. I believe their value should be emphasised in any planning guidance for promoting consumer choice and competitive and vibrant town centres. I look forward to the Minister taking those remarks on board.

13:42

[Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)]

May I, too, welcome the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) to his new role? I also congratulate the two previous speakers, the hon. Members for Stockport (Ann Coffey) and for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), who both made very thoughtful—and different—contributions. As I am being nice to everybody, let me also say that I share the ambitions outlined by the Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark). I really do. I also welcome this debate, because it is an opportunity to show that we can engage in constructive debate and ensure that we get this important change right.

Locally, I was a vociferous opponent of the implications of the south-west regional spatial strategy for housing in my constituency. It could have destroyed green belt and it was entirely top-down and very unpopular. I welcome the thrust of the idea contained in the Localism Bill and neighbourhood planning measures that our approach should be bottom-up, rather than top-down. I liked the Minister’s reference to the idea that planning should not be done to people, but should involve working with them. I want to achieve that, so I hope he sees my contribution as constructive because, although I like the principles, a lot of the detail needs attention.

I support the need to reform our planning system. It has achieved a great deal in the past 50 years, but it can be improved and needs to encourage further public participation at a local level. That is important. We need to reduce delays and to have more flexibility in the system and I believe that we could better deliver sustainable development. It is a great idea to reduce 1,000 pages of guidance into a more concise framework and if we were to aim for fewer than 100 pages, that would probably be good, but the clarity and detail of that reduced document must, of course, be right.

The document as it stands reads as having a presumption in favour of development as distinct from sustainable development. For me, it is crucial that we address that. I agree with previous speakers that getting the definition of “sustainable development” right in the document at the outset is crucial, and if we keep to that consistent definition throughout the document, everything else should fall into place. We should be considering the 2005 definition because it is generally accepted and we do not have the time, now we have started this, to embark on setting out a definition that might—perhaps—be better in some respects. We have set the hare running, we must go with it and, I suggest, the 2005 definition is pretty good. We must also be absolutely clear that sustainable development and sustainable economic growth are not identical concepts and we should be very careful of the language.

I want to see a planning framework that can create economic prosperity, meet the needs of all sectors of society, protect our environment and its resources and provide a pathway to a low-carbon future. Within that, my personal priority for my constituency is to ensure we have the right type of affordable housing. Under the top-down targets we have had in the past, there have been two-bedroom flats galore and not enough family houses. There are all sorts of things we must be careful about. My main objection to the housing targets from the south-west regional spatial strategy was that I could imagine executive homes and second homes galore all over our green belt, and I felt that that was totally wrong.

So, first, let us get the definition right and be absolutely clear. The five principles that have already been outlined should be carried forward. Let me quickly go through some of the detailed points that need to be addressed. I absolutely support the principle that development must be plan-led and our clear definition of sustainable development should set the scene for such local plans. I am personally quite inspired by the idea of neighbourhood plans, but we must take care that everybody has equal access to resources to enable them to be carried out. I want to be sure that the local development plan, when it is completed, has genuine sovereignty. I do not want the Treasury to have a trump card over what has been determined locally.

We have mentioned the transition period, which is crucial, over and over again. I must emphasise how important that is, given that local authorities do not have up-to-date development plans. It is totally unacceptable to say that the default answer is yes, unless the plan is in place. I have made some proposals for possible time periods in my response to the consultation.

I am also weary about the five-year land supply plus 20%. That is top-down and the situations will be different for different authorities. There should be co-operation between authorities because some authorities will have such great constraints that they will be forced into the precious green sites in their urban structure. It is important to have a wider vision so that there is co-operation and we ensure that local authority plans are assessed against each other.

The provision, quality and quantity of affordable housing is very important.

[Caroline Lucas]

I very much support what the hon. Lady is saying, passionately, about housing. However, does she agree that the main impediment to house building in recent years has been not the planning system but money and that if the Government were really concerned about it they could reverse the 60% cut to the affordable housing budget? That would do more for housing than ripping up England’s planning system.

[Annette Brooke]

I think that the Government have been rather successful this year in achieving a commitment to affordable housing with the money that has been made available—170,000 is a figure not to be sniffed at, although, obviously, we all want more.

I do not want to lose the current section 106 provision, which is an important top-up to what the Government might be providing. It is very important that the Planning Inspectorate should not be able to override a local plan that has specified a certain proportion of affordable housing on particular sites.

On the “brownfield first” approach—I think that is in paragraph 165—we need to have the guidance to go with that. A very important point has been made about good-quality agricultural land, but we need a sensible sequential test. That has to be considered in the context of the whole five years, or six years, as has already been mentioned, and of the outstanding 300,000 planning permissions. We really do want to make sure that we use the least-valuable land first. That is very important.

We should also be looking at giving some encouragement to developers to implement their planning permissions, because that gives a further break. There are a lot more points that I wanted to make. I support the heritage lobby, which is all-important, and I note the importance of protecting the diversity of our local high streets. More needs to be said about neighbourhood plans and how we may amend local use classes. That needs to be clear. Transport and spatial plans are also important, as is flood risk management. Most of all, let us be clear that we need our three pillars: economic, social and environmental considerations.

13:52

[Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)]

I draw attention to the interests declared on the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and highlight two non-pecuniary interests as an honorary fellow of the Royal Town Planning Institute and as a director of the Town and Country Planning Association.

I welcome the remarks of the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) about greater clarity in the definition of sustainable development—a point on which I shall pick up—and I agree with a number of the other points she made.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) on his new appointment and on his absolutely first-rate contribution to the debate, in which he forensically analysed the Government’s failures and highlighted the key issues that will need to be addressed if we are to get some sense out of the mess we are in. Let there be no mistake about it—we are in a mess on planning, and it is a mess of the Government’s making.

The Government’s actions were based initially on an incorrect analysis of the problem. They were very happy to speak glibly about the previous system having failed to deliver, and they have continued to make those claims with no regard for the facts. I am going to put on the record, for the Minister’s benefit, the facts about net additions to the housing stock during the period of the previous Government leading up to the recession. From a low of 130,000 net additions to the stock in 2001, we saw an absolutely steady, year-on-year increase to 143,000 in 2002-03, to 155,000 in 2003-04, to 169,000 in 2004-05, to 186,000 in 2005-06, to 199,000 in 2006-07 and to 207,000 in 2007-08. That was not a system that was bust. Members on the Government Benches who oppose housing development may not have approved of it, but it was delivering more homes at a time when there was a shift in favour of brownfield development, so more of those homes were on brownfield sites and the countryside was being more effectively protected. That was a success, and it is shameful of the Government to fail to acknowledge that and to try to pretend that their radical new proposals are somehow addressing a problem of failure when they are not.

Having made their proposals on the basis of an incorrect analysis, the Government built up false expectations by promising the earth to neighbourhoods about their having the ability to refuse unwelcome planning applications. In the run-up to the general election we heard again and again that the Conservative policy of neighbourhood planning would enable neighbourhoods to refuse developments. Having built up those expectations, the Conservatives precipitately, when they came into government, acted to cancel regional spatial strategies without bothering to take the trouble to find out whether what they were doing was lawful. As a result, that policy was struck down in the High Court. What a shambles! What a way to go about doing things. In the course of doing that, they inevitably created uncertainty, and the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) rightly highlighted what all people interested in development know—that certainty is absolutely crucial if we are to have an effective planning system. I am afraid that the Government’s actions have destroyed any certainty.

[George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Raynsford]

No; I have limited time and I have to make some progress.

Having thrown the system into chaos—

[George Hollingbery]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to give way he will give way. The hon. Gentleman should sit down when he will not.

[Mr Raynsford]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. When the system had been thrown into chaos, contributing to a collapse in planning applications, the Government’s friends in the Treasury realised the damage that was being done, so we saw the very significant U-turn in policy that was announced by the Chancellor at the time of the Budget in which the policy was to change. “Yes,” he said, “Of course neighbourhoods must have a say, but the presumption will be in favour of development; the default position will be, ‘yes’.” That was entirely at odds with Ministers’ previous rhetoric, and, not surprisingly, all those who had been led to believe that the new Government were going to have a system that would make it easier for communities to refuse development felt incensed.

That is the explanation for the mess that the Government have got themselves into. They have simultaneously achieved the lowest level of new planning permissions for housing almost in recorded history while having an absolutely incensed body of campaigners who believe that they are opening the door to concreting over the countryside. It is a pretty extraordinary achievement to have done those two things simultaneously, but that is what they have achieved. There has been a disastrous collapse in planning applications for housing. The figures, just in case the Minister is not aware of them, are that just 25,171 residential planning permissions were granted in England in the second quarter of this year. That figure is 24% lower than that for the first quarter and 23% lower than that for the equivalent quarter in 2010. Indeed, it is one of the lowest figures ever recorded—ever recorded! That is the reality. It is fewer than half the number of homes we need to meet needs: 60,000 a quarter would be required to keep pace with requirements. At the same time, they have incensed all the people who care about the countryside, who think they are opening the door to inappropriate development.

[George Hollingbery]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Raynsford]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[George Hollingbery]

I am very grateful. I suspect that what we have just heard is long on invective and short on fact. These proposals are about more than housing; they are about planning in general. Does the right hon. Gentleman describe a system in which 50% of local authorities had not adopted local plans and in which large areas of the country had not adopted regional spatial strategies as anything other than confusion and mess?

[Mr Raynsford]

First, I have given a number of facts. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should advise his Front-Bench team to be rather more respectful of the facts. Secondly, when I was the Minister for Housing and Planning in the early years of the Labour Government I inherited a position in which the reforms of the previous Conservative Government had resulted in large numbers of councils not having up-to-date plans in place. The main thrust of my work as Planning Minister was about getting the existing system to work better, rather than about imposing radical changes. I have advised the current Minister and his colleagues that they would do far better to try to work with the existing system than to seek a radical overhaul, which would be likely to create confusion and uncertainty and lead to paralysis in the planning system—which I am afraid is what we have got.

That leads me to the national planning policy framework. The problem with that document is that the Government have confused brevity with clarity. They have assumed that by reducing the volume of existing guidance they are producing a clearer and simpler statement, but that simply is not the case. The reality is that in many areas, some of which we have discussed today, sufficient care has not been taken with the definitions in the NPPF to give certainty and clarity. Sustainable development is one such area, and I endorse the views that have been expressed about the need for greater clarity.

Secondly, there is the “brownfield first” issue, another area where the Government have blundered and will need to change. Thirdly, there is not a single reference to new settlements and urban developments. There is no mention whatever of the principles that should apply to those. It is extraordinary that that should be entirely overlooked.

[Heidi Alexander]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on an excellent speech. Does he share my concern about the absence of the word “cities” from the national planning policy framework? I find it remarkable that we can have a planning framework for our country that makes no reference to our cities.

[Mr Raynsford]

My hon. Friend makes, as always, a very telling point. This is the problem: the NPPF has been put together in a hurry, and the Government’s objective has been brevity rather than clarity, and as a result it is wanting in many areas and will have to be rewritten.

The fourth area I want to highlight where the NPPF is defective is in respect of mixed developments to ensure that we have balanced communities with affordable and social housing as well as market housing. The NPPF’s statement is very inadequate, as the Minister knows only too well. There is a loose reference to “larger scale residential developments” benefiting from mix, but no definition of “larger scale”.

The problem, as the Minister knows perfectly well, is that in the absence of clear definitions and documents such as those that existed under the previous regime—the planning policy guidance statements—individual developers, local authorities and communities will form their own judgments, they will be in dispute with each other and there will be a rise in appeals and litigation. It will be the lawyers who determine the outcome rather than the Government, the local authority or the local community. That is the real risk of the position in which the Government are putting themselves and our planning system. In the absence of transitional arrangements, the need for which the Minister now belatedly accepts, people will reach for the lawyers to try to determine what should happen because plans are not fully prepared and in place in time to be referred to.

In summary, we have a planning system that plays an absolutely critical role in mediating between competing interests, which requires carefully considered judgments based on experience built up over decades. Against that background, it was unwise of the Government to proceed in a hubristic way with a year zero approach of trying to rewrite the rules. I am glad they are now beginning to recognise their mistake and to row back. I hope they will now apply rather more intelligence, thoughtfulness and consultation to preparing their revised NPPF, which should be a better document than the current one.

14:02

[Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), but I am going to say somewhat different things.

As chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on local government, I have had a very exciting few weeks, with many representations being made to me on this very important issue, as well as my constituents contacting me. I heard much from my Front-Bench colleague today that I thought was very important. I welcome the clarity given on the green belt, on a definition of “sustainability”, on the future of planning policy concerning Travellers and on why green infrastructure is so important, linking neighbourhood to neighbourhood. There was clarity too on the importance of sports and recreation fields and, most importantly—because it is the most important part of South Derbyshire—the national forest, which can be linked to future greenfield, green infrastructure areas. Having clarity, including clear definitions, on those matters in the new NPPF after this first draft will be most helpful.

I hope that my constituents, who have written to me in droves about this, will understand the need for the clarity that we will be able to provide with this new document, compared with the mess of the thousand pages of documentation that we had before. We will have neighbourhood and community-led planning, which will be a utopia. I challenge anyone to find a better constituency than South Derbyshire, where we managed to provide a new village of 2,500 houses with only 20 objections because we had community-led planning.

I know that many Members want to speak and I take the view, “If you can’t say it in a few minutes, you can’t say it at all.” Finally, therefore, I say to Ministers, who will be listening to many people today and to much advice, that what they have said today and the clarity that they have provided is most helpful.

14:05

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

I draw Members’ attention to the interests of my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), in which I have an indirect interest.

The Government claim that we need a new national planning policy framework because existing planning rules are holding back house building and growth. That is a false claim, and I want to reinforce the points that have already been made very forcefully in the House and certainly by Members on these Benches.

In the five years to 2007, the last year before the global banking crisis, the credit crunch and the subsequent recession, there was year-on-year growth in house building, with more than 207,000 additional homes delivered in England in 2007 and the delivery of more than 250,000 additional affordable homes over the period of the Labour Government. That is over a third more than this Government hope to deliver over a five-year term. The hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) implied that 170,000 new homes is a substantial figure, but that is nonsense when we look at the need for housing.

Only last week, the Minister for Housing and Local Government had the bare-faced cheek to try to claim credit for the 60,000 additional affordable homes completed in England in 2010-11. The fact that those were planned for, paid for and started under the last Labour Government, under the existing planning regime, seems conveniently to have slipped his mind.

The reason house-building levels fell during the recession and remain low—indeed, they fell during this Government’s first 12 months in office—is not the old planning system. Planning is, of course, important to growth, but the Secretary of State’s unlawful meddling with regional spatial strategies last year has, according to some estimates, cost the country hundreds of thousands of new homes already, and in so doing seriously damaged growth. That is the direct outcome of Tory policies on planning and a very clear indication that the Government’s left hand does not know what their right hand is doing.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

I remind the hon. Lady that the regional spatial strategy in Northumberland meant that authorities could build no more than about 20 or 30 houses. It was a very severe limit on the numbers that they could build, and its removal has given them freedom to build more houses, not fewer.

[Alison Seabeck]

I take the right hon. Gentleman’s point, but regional spatial strategies were set up to ensure that, ideally, houses were built where there was most need. Clearly, across the country overall, that need was starting to be met under the last Labour Government.

Developers are sitting on land. We have heard about the 300,000 existing permissions. What right-minded developer will build homes when nobody is able to buy them? Again, that is not due to the planning system. Instead of dealing with the critical issue of the economy, and the finance and confidence necessary to deliver the investment and pick house building up off the floor, we are having this smokescreen of a debate on planning. However, a debate has sprung up around the country, and it puts planning at the heart of the conflict between growth, the economy and the countryside. That point was very well made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) in his excellent speech. That is a false choice and it has unhelpfully polarised opinion.

It is important that we have clarity in the system—I do not disagree with hon. Members in different parts of the House on that issue—but this false debate is now proving to be a total distraction. The NPPF is a deeply flawed document that needs to be seriously amended, and I hope that the Minister is listening to Members in all parts of the House because the Government are committed to railroading it through.

Under Labour, the green belt was expanded. We pursued a policy of “brownfield first”. Brownfield expanded as a proportion of new build as we focused on developments and regeneration—a word that is sadly missing from both the Localism Bill and this document.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Alison Seabeck]

No, not at the moment.

We focused on existing communities, and that is missing from the NPPF, and we will see more building on greenfield sites.

The need to protect gardens was not dealt with clearly in the Minister’s statement, although it was the driver behind the change in the “brownfield first” presumption. It is not clear exactly how an assessment will be made of land of the least environmental value, and I think that houses and gardens in some very nice areas will fall into that category. We need clearer definitions, and I am pleased that at least he is willing to rethink the wording of brownfield provisions. I urge him to speak to the Prime Minister and insist that when he answers questions on development in the House he should make it clear that there is no threat to the green belt. The Prime Minister should answer the question that he is asked. If he is asked about the threat to green fields—not green belt—he should deal with that. I have to say that the green fields that are going to be built on are in leafy Tory shires.

The NPPF is silent on affordable housing—a point made by my right hon. Friends the Members for Leeds Central and for Greenwich and Woolwich. When is the assessment of housing need going to be made, as there is just a cursory reference to it in the NPPF, and how will the evidence of that need be collated? Again, that is far from clear.

Finally, there was a glimmer of hope or common sense on transitional arrangements, which are vital. Without a transitional period, there will be fears on the one hand of a development free-for-all while, on the other, developers have concerns about the lack of such arrangements. When the Localism Bill is enacted, regional spatial strategies will disappear, and there will be a gap before the NPPF is introduced, with further losses of planned homes on a scale of the losses that have already taken place as a result of announcements by the Secretary of State. This is an incredibly important subject for people on both sides of the debate, and I am pleased that there appears to have been some backtracking.

In the Committee that considered the Localism Bill, the Opposition were asked to legislate without sight of the NPPF. The House, on Report and on Third Reading, was asked to legislate without sight of the document, and now developers and local communities are going to be asked, some time in the future, to plan without sight of the details that they will need, either to support good-quality local development, designed to meet needs, or to protect local areas of importance. Even today, we have had another statement on the abolition of RSSs that discusses the requirement to undertake a proper environmental assessment, albeit voluntarily. It says that the Government are undertaking another consultation on the matter. How can we legislate and make decisions about things as important as the planning policy framework without seeing the outcome of those consultations?

I welcome the fact that the Government have backtracked on their proposals on yet another ill-researched policy that has been introduced in haste. Along with my colleagues, I await the revised NPPF and the debate on it, because the wording of today’s motion is far from accurate. The House has not, in my view, considered the NPPF, and we should be allowed another debate on the revised paper, and a vote.

14:13

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

The consultation on the draft national planning policy framework is far and away the biggest issue in my constituency, although this weekend it may be run a close second by the forthcoming vote on an EU referendum.

Concerned residents in my beautiful Colne Valley constituency were angered by a poor-quality consultation on Kirklees council’s local development framework. The Labour-led council is still obsessed with the top-down housing targets introduced by the previous Government, and it is trying to impose 28,000 new homes on our area. Then came the fiasco over the planning permission for 294 new homes and a data campus development on Lindley moor, which is north of Huddersfield. Despite the fact that democratically elected councillors originally voted against the housing plans, the planning department and the council leadership kept going until they secured a narrow 8:7 vote in favour of the controversial development on green fields. The development should have been rejected on the grounds of poor infrastructure, with clogged roads, oversubscribed schools and medical services at full stretch.

[Graham Jones]

The hon. Gentleman seems to know a lot about that development. In the planning committee, what did the Highways Agency say about access to the site? Was it in favour, or against?

[Jason McCartney]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right— I know a lot about this, and sat through a whole day of the planning committee’s considerations. I spoke against the proposal. The committee came up with highways figures but, as a number of local residents rightly pointed out, those figures were out of date and they did not apply to peak times in the morning and evening. I attended the committee for many hours, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising the issue, as he has helped to make a good point.

Concerned local people have read and heard about the draft NPPF with deep suspicion. While the aim of simplifying 1,000-plus pages to little more than 50 is laudable, residents in the beautiful countryside of the Colne and Holme valleys, as well as Lindley, fear the phrase,

“presumption in favour of sustainable development”.

Local people have interpreted that as a developers charter for more unwanted developments on their rapidly reducing countryside. There is confusion, too, about what sustainable development actually is, and there is a need for a clear definition, as we have heard in our debate.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I want to expand on the point that my hon. Friend made about residents’ fears. A planning appeal is under way in my constituency in which the developers are using the phrasing of the NPPF to try to push through, and argue for, wind turbines. We therefore need clarity on what is meant by sustainable development.

[Jason McCartney]

My hon. Friend is a doughty campaigner on the issue of wind turbines in his constituency, and I know that he will continue to campaign. That was an excellent point.

I shall return to housing, which is the big issue in my constituency. The draft NPPF aims to give local people a real say via their local plan. As I have said, people in my patch have to suffer a Labour-run Kirklees council hellbent on development, whatever the cost to our countryside and environment. All of this suspicion, fear and rumour has led to numerous community groups getting together to have their say on the flawed local development framework and the NPPF. I have fully engaged with those groups, especially the Kirklees community action network. I have spoken at meetings in Slaithwaite and my home village of Honley, and will be doing so in Meltham in a fortnight.

Like many hon. Members, I have received numerous e-mails and letters and, as I said, I have met local action groups, which have copied me into their submissions to the consultation. They have spent many hours on their consultations, and they have made some excellent points, some of which I shall summarise. I urge Ministers to take note of them. First, we should change the main presumption statement to read: “presumption in favour of sustainable development on brownfield sites or those of lesser environmental impact.” Basically, we should adopt a brownfield-first policy.

Secondly—and Opposition Members will not like this—we should stop councils using the old top-down housing targets. I appreciate that the Government have tried to do so through the courts—they have been frustrated—but we should get this in the NPPF, because the problem, as I said, is that my Labour-run local council is sticking with the regional spatial strategy target of 28,000 homes even though no one has any idea where it got that figure from.

Thirdly, Kirklees council has more than 11,000 empty homes. It is madness to keep building on green fields when we have those empty homes. We should try to get as many of them back into use as possible, and there should be more mention of that in the NPPF.

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman has put the emphasis on a Labour council, but in my Tory-run council residents groups are at loggerheads with our Tory mayor and cabinet, who insist on building houses next to a country park, when brownfield sites are available. Should we not say that all councils can be stubborn, instead of putting the emphasis on Labour councils?

[Jason McCartney]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comment. Obviously I can only talk knowledgeably about my local council. We are working hard in Kirklees to get a Conservative-run council, and then we will be able to compare them.

Fourthly, let us accept that relaxing the rules on development will not necessarily help the economy—a point that has already been made. Houses are not being built because home buyers cannot get mortgages as a result of the huge deposits required, not because of a lack of available land with planning permission. The only reason houses are not being built is that builders cannot sell them. Across the country thousands of newly built and older homes are currently unoccupied, as I have already pointed out, and developers are sitting on hundreds of thousands of unimplemented planning permissions. In Kirklees alone there is land equivalent to 5.1% of the existing housing stock or about 16 years' supply of building land at current levels of house building activity already with planning permission, but it has not been built on yet.

Fifthly, although the framework offers some theoretical protection to green-belt land, for example for sites of special scientific interest and heritage sites, it also gives local authorities and developers the freedom to override those protections if development can be shown to offer significant economic benefit. It offers no protection to other greenfield land. That is wholly inappropriate in semi-urban areas, and we are really worried in my part of the world, particularly with provisional open land, that the net effect might be that the villages will end up sprawling together. These are all points that my local community groups have been talking about.

As I have said, people in my neck of the woods are between a rock and a hard place. On one hand there is the presumption in favour of sustainable development if no local plan is in place, and local people are interpreting that as a developer’s charter. On the other hand, there is a Labour-run local council that is trying to shove through the plans for 28,000 new homes by massive green-belt release. We have either a flawed local plan or that presumption; no wonder people in my area are so worried.

[Heidi Alexander]

I am genuinely interested in the hon. Gentleman’s answer to this question: are community groups in his constituency coming forward with an alternative plan, through neighbourhood forums and their own neighbourhood plans, for areas where they could accommodate new housing growth?

[Jason McCartney]

The hon. Lady makes an excellent point. That is why I have given those groups details about the neighbourhood planning front-runners scheme, which can assist them in developing neighbourhood plans and provide funding of up to £20,000 to help that. The groups are very well organised and I have pointed them in the right direction. They have come forward and are working with other local groups, such as civic societies, town trusts and parish councils, to come up with a neighbourhood plan, which is a very positive side of our localism structure.

In summary, we should of course simplify the planning system, but let us prioritise developments on brownfield sites, bring empty homes back into use and protect what is left of our countryside by ensuring that local plans genuinely reflect local wishes.

14:22

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The Communities and Local Government Committee, which I chair, is in the middle of an inquiry on the national planning policy framework, so, like the Minister, I do not want to come to conclusions today, as it is important to hear all the evidence before reaching any decisions. I thank the Minister for advising the Committee at an early stage of his intention to bring in a new NPPF and for asking us whether we wanted to be involved in the consultation process by conducting an inquiry. We have indicated that we will reach our conclusions before the Christmas recess as part of the consultation. I also want to welcome my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) to his new post and thank him for raising a number of important points in his contribution, many of which have been raised with the Committee and which we want to address.

I am sure that the objectives that the Government are trying to achieve—building more homes and providing more jobs—are shared across the House. I certainly have a long-standing interest in trying to increase the number of homes being built in this country. It is a prime need and something that all Members should be interested in. The real issue, of course, is where that building and development will take place. That, in essence, is what the planning system is all about.

In looking at the Government’s proposals, there are a number of questions we want to ask first. Is the planning system really responsible for the lack of house building and growth in this country? Is there evidence for that? Those are the questions we should address first. If there are problems with the planning system, is it a problem of the policy and guidance, or one of process? Is the process of getting local plans agreed too lengthy? Those are the sorts of issues that the Committee wants to look at, but the fundamental question is this: is there clear evidence that planning is holding back house building and growth, or are other factors more important?

The Committee has certainly heard much conflicting evidence. We had the National Trust and the Home Builders Federation sitting before us giving evidence together, so it was apparent that there are slightly different views about the wisdom of the Government’s proposals. We all welcome the fact that the Minister is listening, and hopefully he will listen to the Committee’s recommendations when they are made. If he is minded in the end to make some significant changes to his proposals, will he consider a further round of consultation? If we are really to get this right, is it not important that we have the maximum amount of dialogue, because there is a common interest in trying to ensure that the matter is taken forward in the right way.

I welcome what the Minister said about transitional arrangements. We have heard much evidence suggesting that we cannot simply press a button and change from one system to another without an awful lot of problems being created. Indeed, there is legal evidence suggesting that, because no local plan will be in place that has had a chance to take account of a new framework once agreed, on day one all local plans will effectively be out of date and inconsistent with the national guidance. Clearly, therefore, there must be a transition to allow change to take place. The history of changes in planning policy and legislation reveals that any change at all, and even the proposal of change, creates uncertainty and tends to cause delay, increase the number of appeals and involve the lawyers to a greater extent. We ought to look at how we can minimise those impacts and get to the best position.

A number of specific concerns have been raised with the Committee which we will want to look at. First, is all the guidance that is being scrapped really useless? Has any planning authority really said, “This is irrelevant and we have no need for it?” Is there a danger that once it is all removed at national level councils will start to look at the local level and incorporate more and more in their local plans, because if their local plan is silent on something they will worry that they will get development that they do not want? That is a concern that we must reflect on. Will simply stripping out everything and pretending that it does not matter really be of benefit?

What is the precise link between the national guidance, local plans and neighbourhood plans, which are very new and untested? The framework refers a great deal to the importance of local plans, but it does not say that any application that is approved has to be consistent with the local plan. That is stated in national legislation, so there is a relationship, but is it absolutely clear, because national legislation apparently has primacy over the guidance? That relationship has to be worked through. Having listened to Government Members, I think there is clearly an issue to be worked through about the national requirements for more homes, on climate change and regional requirements on waste disposal, and on Traveller sites and how they relate to local aspirations at local planning level where there may be differences. If all the local plans and the plans for housing in them do not add up to the requirements that we need at national level to build sufficient homes, where does that leave us? There are clearly concerns that go beyond one local authority boundary. The duty to co-operate is in place and the Minister has taken steps to strengthen it, but is it sufficient to ensure that we can deliver on those wider issues? There are some carrots, but are there any sticks? Can any penalties be imposed on local authorities that do not co-operate, and what does not co-operating actually amount to? Those are also concerns.

Concerns have been raised with the Committee about sustainable development. Should there be a national definition, which is much clearer and, perhaps, written down in legislation or in the framework? Should it be included? If it is, the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) made will be important. Will the definition be applied consistently at a local level, or will there be differences in an application and in how we apply the definition in a northern industrial town with lots of dereliction, as opposed to in a leafy suburb in the south or, indeed, in a national park? There is not much special reference in the framework to the differences that might be applicable and relevant in different areas, so we want to address those matters in particular, and it is important that we do so.

People have made the point to the Committee that the framework came out of proposals for growth. There are three legs—economic, social and environmental—to the stool of sustainable development, but has the economic leg become a little longer than the other two, and is the stool becoming a little unbalanced? Is too much emphasis being given to economic factors, which in any decision might override environmental and social factors?

[Duncan Hames]

I am finding the hon. Gentleman’s speech very informative, as indeed was his pertinent intervention during the opening speech. Does he share my concern that the question of whether an application qualifies for the presumption of sustainable development might end up being decided by the courts and through case law, rather than by local, democratically accountable councillors?

[Mr Betts]

That is absolutely right. No one here wants lawyers involved in making decisions that should properly be made in this Parliament, and that is why we have to get the policy absolutely right and look at the definitions. Indeed, there is a range of definitions in the framework, some of which are untested and we want to be clear about.

In the Select Committee the other day, we took evidence on the issue of “significant and demonstrable”. What does it mean? When we pushed a practitioner who was on the group that made the initial recommendations to Ministers, asking him, “What does significant mean?” he said, “Well, of course, if it wasn’t significant, it wouldn’t matter.” That is an issue, because the adverse consequences of a development might outweigh the benefits, but if they do not outweigh them in a significant and demonstrable way, the application will still have to be accepted. We have to probe some of the definitions.

I welcome the Minister’s comments on brownfield development and on taking another look at it. I understand some of the concerns of Government Members about building in gardens, but we should not allow those concerns to enable the removal of brownfield development. The Minister is looking again at that issue and, in particular, at how it relates to the additional 20% of houses and the contingency that will have to be planned for. That is very welcome, indeed.

We have to look at the “town centre first” issue. Why have offices been removed from it? They are an important part of a sustainable “town centre first” strategy, so will the Minister make it clear that, if an application fails a sequential test, it will be deemed unsustainable? How does the sequential test relate to that issue?

The Minister has not mentioned the needs test, which it was Conservative policy in opposition to reinstate. I opposed the previous Labour Government’s removal of it, so will he look at that issue, too?

The Select Committee has a lot of issues to look at. We will try to do so in an evidence-based way, which is how we try to operate; we will try to identify the real concerns; and, where we think that there are genuine concerns, we will try to go to the Minister with some clear proposals on how the document might be amended with benefit.

14:32

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), the Chairman of the Communities and Local Government Committee, because he is one of the more knowledgeable Opposition Members on these matters, and he made some very pertinent points.

We may trade figures, as the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) started to do, but his Government inherited a golden legacy, and although the planning system can bring forward permissions, it cannot ensure that houses are built. His Government inherited a golden legacy, but they managed to ruin it, and we are now are in a very difficult situation in which we need to build more houses. The planning system has a part, but only a part, to play in that; the market has a big part to play, too.

I welcome the actions of my right hon. Friend the Minister in getting rid of regional spatial strategies, which the previous Government introduced. I have opposed them very strongly, simply because they have not worked. They have not produced the number of local plans required, and they have alienated many local people from the planning system, so my right hon. Friend has done the right thing in bringing forward this new national planning framework. I wish him every possible success.

I declare an interest, which is in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, as I have property that could benefit from these planning changes, and I, like the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich declared, have a non-pecuniary interest, too, because I am a fellow of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors and used to practise in the planning field.

One issue that is not in the NPPF is the costs in the planning appeal process. In my experience, small local authorities often have to weigh up the correct planning decision while bearing in mind the cost of appeal. My local authority has a development budget of about £2 million, and, if it has to take on board four appeals in any one year at £50,000 each, that is 10% of its entire development budget.

I have a proposal to deal with that. The default setting should be that the developer, who after all gets the benefit, will be expected to pay the local authority’s reasonable costs on an appeal. The issue of costs could then be varied by either the planning inspector or the Secretary of State in a particular place where the local planning authority has acted blatantly and without good reason against its own local plan or has ignored relevant national guidance.

Turning now to the issues that are governed by the draft NPPF, my first concern is about the guidance relating to the increased supply of housing. I am particularly concerned about the requirement in paragraph 109 for local authorities to provide an additional 20% of the existing five-year land bank. The five-year land bank is a rolling programme. Every time one permission is built on, it has to be replaced with a new permission. In my area, that is bringing about a substantial amount of new building land. If we impose this extra land on top of the existing five-year land bank, it will become unsustainable, it will sterilise more land through planning permission than is necessary, and it will give rise to the wrong assumptions on infrastructure planning. I hope that the Government will think very carefully about introducing this additional 20%; otherwise, many people in our areas will become very disillusioned with the planning system.

[Duncan Hames]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I will give way once.

[Duncan Hames]

In response to my earlier question, the Minister said that he did not want to require local authorities to build for more than the five-year housing supply. That being the case, does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is important that the housing that is derived from windfall developments should be taken into consideration against the need that the local authority needs to meet?

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. He must have my notes, so I shall continue.

The Government should reconsider what counts towards housing numbers in a local authority area. First, they should allow for windfall sites; after all, these are real gains, and they should be encouraged.

[Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

We are a team now.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

Well, we are in coalition together.

Secondly, exceptions and additional neighbourhood sites should be included. Thirdly, new agricultural and forestry dwellings should be included. Fourthly, sheltered or high-dependency housing accompanying a nursing home application should be included. That is particularly relevant to my constituency, where we have three large such applications on areas that perhaps would not usually be given permission, but they would gain greater currency in the local community if people felt that they were contributing towards the five-year plan.

Paragraph 109 requires local authorities to

“identify and bring back into use empty housing and buildings”.

This has been a problem for many decades. There are about 740,000 empty houses in England. When I had a housing brief in opposition, I surveyed most of our major institutions that had a presence on the high street to discover why so many of the flats about their shops were empty. Most said that they did not find occupants for those flats because it was too administratively burdensome. The NPPF needs to have stronger guidance to bring back into use these empty properties, which are a shocking waste of our built environment.

The vitality and viability of town centres is dealt with in paragraph 78. Town centres, particularly in smaller rural market towns such as those that I represent, are undergoing significant change. The increased trend towards shopping online is causing many retail businesses to reduce their presence on the high street or to leave it altogether. Many town centres are therefore coming under pressure as demand for retail space drops. Nothing is worse for a town than the sight of a large number of derelict shops. The NPPF needs to be straightforward so that local authorities can consider ways of strengthening the vitality and viability of town centres and are able to resist applications where they are threatened, first, by out-of-town centre schemes, and then, by edge-of-town centre schemes.

[Jason McCartney]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I said that I would give way only once, if my hon. Friend does not mind.

Special consideration needs to be given to small market towns, because they are particularly vulnerable to such large developments.

Design is a very important issue for those in special vernacular design areas such as the Cotswolds. On the whole, post-war planning has been successful in keeping the distinctive Cotswold stone wall and roof construction. However, guidance such as that in paragraphs 21 and 118 seems to run totally counter to what has been achieved in the Cotswolds over so many decades. The way around this would be to allow particular vernacular styles to predominate only in those areas where it can be proved that it has done so in the past, as must be clearly demonstrated in the adopted local plans.

Finally, as the Member of Parliament for a constituency of which more than 80% is comprised of areas of outstanding natural beauty, I warmly welcome Ministers having said that national parks, green belts and areas of outstanding natural beauty will be protected. However, I think that the guidance in paragraph 167 needs to be strengthened in that respect. I suggest to my right hon. Friend the Minister that it follow the wording of policy ENV3 of the south-west regional spatial strategy on protected landscapes:

“Particular care will be taken to ensure that no development is permitted outside the National Park or Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty which would damage their natural beauty, character and special qualities or otherwise prejudice the achievement of National Park or Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty purposes.”

These are some of the most special landscapes in the country. As has been said, we live in a densely populated country, particularly when the hilly areas of England, Wales and Scotland are taken out of the equation. It is therefore particularly important that we get the planning system right and, in particular, the NPPF.

I urge my right hon. Friend to resist too much more additional consultation. Planning practitioners now need to get on with the system, which I am sure will be improved and will be more friendly to local people. I warmly welcome the idea of local decision making and neighbourhood plans. I can tell my right hon. Friend that many of my parish and town councils are lining up to draw up neighbourhood plans, because they have become so fed up with a regional planning system that is based many hundreds of miles away. They want to feel that they have ownership of the planning system and that they will benefit from applications in their area.

I only have a couple of seconds left, but I just want to say that pre-planning application is really important. I have gone through it successfully with a big house builder in my constituency and we have got an application that is much more acceptable to the local communities. I urge Members to encourage that. Good luck to my right hon. Friend.

14:41

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

This is an interesting and important debate, not least because it comes in the context of the Government’s intention to be the “greenest Government ever”. We must ask how their planning policies sit within that ambition. This debate comes as the climate change talks and Rio+20 are about to take place. We want the Government to go to those international negotiations with real leadership, backed up by the action that is being taken at home. That action must relate to planning policy.

It is important that this matter is considered as a cross-cutting issue. Whatever the Department for Communities and Local Government puts before Parliament has to be consistent with the policies of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Department of Energy and Climate Change, so that the national policy statements about major infrastructure investments sit side by side with the localism agenda and planning policies. One problem with this consultation is that it is still being brought forward with a silo mentality. The Minister urgently needs to cross-reference it so that everything that comes about as a result of the new planning policies is consistent with the business plans of other Departments that relate to sustainable development. Otherwise, sustainable development will not underpin everything that is done.

Having made those general comments, I wish to congratulate many of the Members who have spoken, not least my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), who chairs the Communities and Local Government Committee. It is important that the Minister and Parliament take account of the scrutiny that takes place in Parliament, which is why this parliamentary debate is so important. If Parliament is to be fit for purpose, fit for the 21st century and fit to create the policies that we will need in generations to come, it is right that the Minister should give an undertaking when he responds that he will give us more time to take account of what is said by the Select Committees of the House of Commons. I am sure that the Liaison Committee will want to consider that as well.

Every Member of this House represents their constituency first and foremost. I will therefore say a brief word about an issue that relates to my constituency of Stoke-on-Trent North. It is the issue of brownfield sites, which many Members including my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) have mentioned.

I was interested that the Minister gave away the fact that the priority that there used to be to develop on brownfield sites has somehow been lost as a result of the need to prevent development in gardens. There are large industrial or former industrial parts of the country with huge amounts of brownfield site. In Stoke-on-Trent we have 175 hectares of brownfield land available for development. If we do not get the planning policy framework right, developers and property companies will cherry-pick green belt and greenfield sites.

[Greg Clark]

indicated dissent.

[Joan Walley]

But where are the inducements to build houses in Stoke-on-Trent, where there is planning permission for them? It is not the planning permission system that is failing; it is the policies of the Treasury and other Departments. They are not ensuring that we can build the homes that are so desperately needed on brownfield sites.

I wish to mention the role of the Environmental Audit Committee. I am very pleased that we are collaborating with the Communities and Local Government Committee to examine the whole issue of planning. Our Select Committee has been charged with considering the definition of “sustainable development”. That is a key issue, and Ministers from DCLG and DEFRA were before the Committee in a united stance just last week. The present Minister gave what I thought was an undertaking to go away and look at the evidence—I stress that we are examining evidence-based representations. He now needs to consider how the detailed recommendations that we will make on a definition of “sustainable development” can be integrated into the national planning policy framework before it is too late. That is critical.

[Duncan Hames]

The hon. Lady is recognised for her expertise on this subject. Does she agree that the reason the definition of “sustainable development” published in the draft framework has three legs is that all three of them count? It would not be satisfactory for developments to benefit from the presumption in favour of sustainable development if they were contributing to just one of those three legs and the overall net effect on sustainability was negative.

[Joan Walley]

This is a really complex issue, and the former Labour Government had problems with it when the legislation on regional development agencies was first introduced. There was a strong view that there should be a legal definition of the term in that legislation.

The witnesses before our Committee last week said that the Government seemed to be going backwards. We had the Brundtland definition of sustainable development, then we subsequently had the 2005 definition that was included in planning permissions. Now, with the changes that the Government are introducing in the framework, there will be no clear definition. That means that the three pillars of sustainable development—economic factors, social justice and the environment—will not be linked to any proper framework within which they can be properly assessed so that reasoned and informed decisions are made. The Government need to think carefully about a proper definition to be included in the framework and about providing clarity about what is meant by sustainable development. That needs to be matched in the Localism Bill, and sustainable development must be defined by all Government Departments and in all Government legislation.

Some other details need to be considered as the framework goes forward, one of which is how to include the long-term needs of the mineral extraction industry. At the moment, permissions are given for a 25-year period, which can provide some degree of certainty. That has to be balanced against how we define sustainable development.

Those issues cannot be properly resolved unless we have a clear, valid definition that is consistent over time. That is what we need, so when the Minister replies, he needs to set out the procedures that can be brought to bear to ensure that that is included as the national planning policy framework is taken forward.

14:50

[Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)]

I declare my relevant interests in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

Let me begin by warmly welcoming the objectives that my right hon. and hon. Friends have set out in this policy framework. This has been a good debate, in which we have seen an emerging consensus behind those objectives, even though some questions of detail have arisen. I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) for supporting the objectives of the Government’s planning policy framework. In fairness, questions of detail are bound to arise when, as is the case now, a Government try to simplify a policy that was previously very complex indeed. However, I strongly support the objective of simplifying planning policy as it stands.

I know that hon. Members have talked about developers, lawyers and so forth, but my experience as a constituency Member of Parliament is that the unequal playing field between developers and members of the public—as well as local authorities, with the cost that they face—has been created by the sheer complexity of the current planning system. To be fair, I am not blaming the previous Government for that; we are talking about something that has grown up over the years, under Governments of all descriptions. It is my experience that the developers turn up at planning inquiries with armies of consultants, lawyers and lobbyists, giving the impression that the system belongs to them, that there is no place for members of the public or communities to have their say and that local authorities, particularly smaller ones, are at a disadvantage, as they are always mindful of costs, something that my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) rightly mentioned.

[Graham Jones]

Would the hon. Gentleman therefore be in favour of a right of appeal not for the applicants, but for those whom we might consider the defendants—that is, the people objecting to an application?

[Mr Clappison]

That is an interesting proposition that could perhaps be considered on another day and in the fullness of time.

The hon. Gentleman will be pleased that the objective of localism has been fulfilled through the national planning policy framework, and in particular through the opportunity to establish neighbourhood plans to take into account the views of local communities. At the same time—I grasp the nettle on this issue—I welcome the planning policy framework’s approach towards promoting development and growth, which is a perfectly proper consideration for such a framework. The planning system should not be, as it sometimes has been, an obstacle to appropriate and justified developments in the right place. It is a question of getting development in the right place and striking the right balance among the social, environmental and economic factors that have to be taken into account. I welcome the willingness that Ministers have shown so far, including today—they will no doubt continue to show it in future too—to listen and seek to strike the right balance among those different considerations. I understand that that is a work in progress, and I urge Ministers to continue with it.

I have heard a lot about sustainable development. Although I do not have a problem with the definition in the policy framework, I would ask Ministers to look again at the presumption in favour of sustainable development. We can all see what Ministers are trying to achieve, but more work needs to be done on how that operates throughout the planning policy framework, because the word “presumption” creates the impression that there is something that has to be rebutted. I think we know what Ministers are trying to achieve, but more work needs to be done.

I have two further points to make. The green belt is a particularly strong interest for me, as much of my constituency is covered by it. However, I am rather at a loss to understand some of the legal opinion that has been quoted about protection for the green belt, because as I read the planning policy framework, the protection for the green belt is at least as strong as in the existing documents, if not arguably stronger. I am not sure whether those who say that there is no protection against inappropriate development have got as far as paragraph 142, which states:

“Inappropriate development is, by definition, harmful to the Green Belt and should not be approved except in very special circumstances.”

What could be plainer than that? I welcome that plain speaking. I think that that provision is probably stronger than what were said to be the safeguards allegedly taken out by the Government, because it represents a prohibition,

“except in very special circumstances.”

I would ask the Government to go further than the enhanced protection that they have given to the green belt. Over the years, I have seen developers come to my constituency with ingenious arguments about what might amount to special circumstances to justify development in the green belt. Time and again, those applications have been made, and if every one had been granted, there would now be no green belt left in my constituency. I therefore ask for still further protection for the green belt.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Clappison]

I will give way to my hon. Friend, because I think that that will gain me an extra minute.

[Bob Stewart]

When we refer to “special circumstances”, are we referring to a situation in which locals really want something? Is that the way my hon. Friend would read it?

[Mr Clappison]

What the developers have done in the past is give their interpretation of what local people should want, but that is not what local people actually want. They can be very ingenious.

An important point about the green belt that has not yet been mentioned is that this document protects the existing green belt. The Government have abandoned the doctrine of the previous Government which stated that the loss of existing green belt could be compensated for by the designation of green belt somewhere else in the country. For example, under those rules, the green belt in Hertfordshire could be built on if that was compensated for by the designation of fresh green belt in, say, Hampshire, Herefordshire, Northamptonshire, Norfolk or somewhere else in the country. That doctrine would have resulted in the rolling development of the whole country, so I welcome the new protection.

A matter of great interest to my constituents is that of green spaces. I welcome the inclusion of that important concept in the document. Green spaces can include spaces in urban areas near to the green belt. I should like to make a plea to the Minister on behalf of my constituents. I know that the Government cannot designate green spaces everywhere, but will they be as flexible and generous as possible in that regard, because those spaces are a tremendous boon to my constituents and those of other hon. Members? I am speaking particularly on behalf of the Woodcock Hill environmental community project in my constituency, which has worked hard to establish a village green on a treasured green space that I hope will remain for many years to come, long into the future after we have all gone.

I support what the Government are trying to do, but I would also urge them to listen to the valid points that have been raised. This is work in progress and there is more to be done, but the Government are approaching the matter in the right way and getting very close to their target of fulfilling their original objectives. We should give them the support and help that they deserve as they seek to achieve their important objectives, balance them together and build a better future for our country.

14:58

[Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison). I associate myself strongly with his comments about the protection of specific areas of green belt, as well as those about green spaces. As ever, Her Majesty’s Opposition are here to help the Government get out of a hole, and it is a hole of their own making. The production of the draft national planning policy framework has been a disastrous process, and I very much hope that we will begin to see some sense from Ministers as they respond to the consultation. In fact, I think that we are beginning to see that now. It is a great pleasure to hear that they have dropped the rather abusive and unconstructive tone that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) mentioned. Talk of smear campaigns by left-wingers and “nihilistic selfishness” on the part of organisations such as the National Trust, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and the Campaign to Protect Rural England does little to elevate the debate or enable us to think creatively about planning in this country.

The point of today’s debate is this: the national planning policy framework as drafted threatens to undermine the very successful urban renaissance of recent years. I know that we now have a “Cities Minister” from Tunbridge Wells—that great conurbation—but even the Tory party’s recent conference in Manchester should have allowed it to see the great success of Labour’s “brownfield first” densification strategy of recent years. All of that could be undone by the current document because, as we have seen, it allows a series of get-out clauses for expansive free-for-all development, which will inevitably mean greenfield, if not green-belt, development. As the Home Builders Federation puts it, the NPPF allows a new presumption

“that requires local planning authorities to explain why development should not go ahead rather than placing this onus on the applicant of convincing the authority as to why it should be approved.”

The HBF regards this as

“a radical change of approach”.

In one sense, this should not come as a surprise, as a little history will show, Mr Deputy Speaker, if you will allow me. When we look back through the 20th century, we discover that the Conservative party in office is very rarely a friend of the countryside. In the inter-war years, we saw the remarkable expansion of ribbon development, laissez-faire sprawl and unregulated suburbanisation. England was uglified as the Tories, as usual, gave the whip hand to developers, who quickly sought to merge town and country.

Thankfully, the forces of progress intervened when, in 1926, the Council for the Preservation of Rural England was established. Then the great Herbert Morrison introduced the green belt around London and we thankfully had a Labour Government who introduced the Town and Country Planning Act 1947, the national land fund, the national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty and the rolling out of the green belt—the securing of our post-war planning settlement, which separated rural from urban, town from country, which is now under threat by this new policy.

What I have described has made England what it is. Whereas the Conservative party cannot bear the idea of planning and would rather have the anywhere/nowhere sprawl of modern America—or, increasingly, of Italy and Spain—we Labour Members believe in preservation, zoning, development and planning. This is not nimbyism, but a sophisticated approach to how we should deal with planning issues. This is particularly the case, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) suggested, when we come to complicated matters of climate change and recycling.

Of course, when the Tories came back in the 1980s, they sought to undermine all that all over again. Once again we had the deregulation of planning, out-of-town shopping complexes and sprawl—the result of laissez-faire deregulation. In 1997, the tide turned again—thanks in part to my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford)—as we sought to undo the damage. Not only did my right hon. Friend sanction another national park—opposed by the Conservatives—and conserve the green belt, but the percentage of new dwellings built on brownfield land rose from 56% in 1997 to 78% in 2010. The results are there to see in our cities. In 1990, there were barely a few hundred people living in the centre of Manchester; today, there are more than 20,000. In Liverpool, the inner-urban population increased as well.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

The hon. Gentleman extols the virtues of the “town centre first” policy. I know that he is a well-known historian, but history tells me that that policy was adopted by the previous Conservative Government, not the Labour Government.

[Tristram Hunt]

We were so happy when the former Secretary of State, the former Member for Suffolk Coastal, John Gummer, saw the light. I agreed not only with his “town centre first” plans, but with his plans for the regeneration of major stately home building, although that does not make me popular on the Labour Benches. Now, however, the “brownfield first” plan is gone; planning permission is to be granted where the plan is absent, silent, indeterminate or where relevant policies are out of date. That means developers can build where and when they like. What makes the English landscape so special—that rural/urban divide and the post-war planning settlement—threatens to be undermined. It is threatened because, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central said, there is no economic growth. The Government’s growth strategy has collapsed, and they think that ripping up the planning process will solve the problem.

[Andrew Percy]

I spent 10 years as a city councillor under the previous Government’s planning system, and I am afraid that I do not recognise the nirvana that the hon. Gentleman is painting. Instead, we had central Government diktat telling us what to do and where to do it, deciding that communities that wanted to grow could not grow and making us put housing where local people did not want it. That was the reality under the previous Government’s planning policy.

[Tristram Hunt]

I know that Government Members do not believe in fact-based discussion, but the reality is that under the previous Government’s planning policy, we saw an increase in house building, increasing densification and growing numbers in Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle and Bristol—I do not know about the great urban centre of Tunbridge Wells, but perhaps there was an increase there as well. Weak planning does not deliver strong economic growth.

[Greg Clark]

The hon. Gentleman is seeking to draw partisanship into the debate. Has he listened to the words of the former Labour housing Minister, Lord Rooker, in the House of Lords last week when he was introducing a debate? He said clearly:

“I am actually with the Government on this issue…The draft planning policy nowhere near seeks to destroy our countryside, areas of outstanding natural beauty, the green belt or our vast open countryside. Those are the facts”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 13 October 2011; Vol. 730, c. 1836.]

Why is the hon. Gentleman trying to create contention where there is none?

[Tristram Hunt]

I believe in contention. I think it is a good thing. Politics results from it. I think that the noble Lord Rooker is not unfamiliar with contention either.

Deregulating planning does not deliver the kind of economic growth that the Government think it does. We have only to look at Spain, Ireland or the American states of Arizona or Nevada to realise that a strategy of ex-urban sprawl does not deliver such growth. As the Minister should know, business park vacancies currently stand at 17% and 1.6 million square feet of commercial space is free for letting. In a recent letter to the Financial Times, the planning adviser Paul Hackett revealed that when he was asked to investigate Treasury claims that the planning system was a barrier to growth, he

“failed to find any convincing evidence, other than planning controls holding back speculative development by developers and out of town supermarkets and hoteliers”,

that the previous system had undermined sustainable economic growth.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) said, both her and I are privileged to represent a city facing challenges of growth, structural economic change and structural unemployment. We do not think that ending the “brownfield first” and the “town centre first” strategies will provide the kind of development, housing and businesses that we want in Stoke-on-Trent, not least because, as the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) suggested, we have 750,000 homes sitting empty and existing planning permission for 330,000 unbuilt houses. The problem for development in many situations, particularly for housing, is as much about the financial and mortgage systems as it is about the planning system.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North said, we want a proper definition of sustainable development, a return of the “brownfield first” policy—we welcome the Minister’s elongated U-turn on that—the dropping of the default “yes” when a plan is out of date or silent, a recognition of the intrinsic value of the unprotected countryside, not just green belt, that covers so much of England, and a return to the “town centre first” policy and, with it, the sequential policy. All those decisions would benefit our constituents, who want not only urban regeneration in Stoke-on-Trent but the protection of the Staffordshire moorlands and the towns and villages surrounding it.

As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, next year marks the centenary of the death of Octavia Hill, the founder of the National Trust—perhaps she was a left-wing nihilist, although I doubt it. Instead, she believed in good housing, vibrant cities and a natural environment

“for the enjoyment, refreshment, and rest of those who have no country house, but who need, from time to time, this outlook over the fair land which is their inheritance as Englishmen”.

I hope that we now have a Government who believe the same.

15:09

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

As others have observed, this is a good debate which raises issues that go to the heart of our communities. I pay tribute to the way in which the Minister has battled through the last few months. He has taken quite a battering from some rather hysterical media reporting, most of which has been full of misinformation.

I spent 26 years as a local councillor. During that time, like many other Members, I fought battles both for and against certain developments. I also spent six years as a cabinet member whose responsibilities included everything from roads to rubbish to licensing tattooists, and also included planning policy. A very successful coalition controlled the council—a Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition, I should add.

I realised during that time that the planning system was a hindrance to the development that is so desperately needed in many parts of my constituency, but protection is also needed: there has to be a balance. My constituency includes parts of the Humber estuary, a site of special scientific interest, and is on the edge of the Lincolnshire wolds, an area of outstanding natural beauty. Of course I welcome the protection that will remain in place for those areas, but my constituency also includes town centres, and they need to be protected as well. Barton-upon-Humber, for instance, is a beautiful market town with many Georgian buildings, but like all market towns it suffers from empty shops on the high streets.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend not agree that the best people to decide which areas in a given part of the country need protection and which need development, whether they are town centres or parts of the surrounding countryside, are local people? Is it not because local people have been cut out of the planning process that so few houses have been built where they need to be built, while houses have been built in areas which local people would like to be protected?

[Martin Vickers]

I entirely agree, but none of the measures for which I am arguing would take power away from local people. I spent most of my quarter of a century as a councillor bemoaning the fact that central Government were telling us to do this, that and the other, and not allowing us to note what local people were saying. I believe that the system that is evolving will feature widespread consultation from the bottom up, and—I hope—the making of final decisions by elected and accountable local authorities rather than distant planning inspectors. The more we are able to ensure that decisions are made locally, the more communities will be shaped in a manner of which local people approve.

On the importance of maintaining the vitality of town centres, as was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), shopping habits have changed and continue to change. It is a fact, regrettable in many ways, that we shall need fewer shop units in the coming years. Let me give an example from my constituency. The entrance to Cleethorpes, that beautiful seaside resort on the east coast, is to some extent blighted by a drive through an area containing parade after parade of shops, many of which are empty. Many others serve local needs, but the fact remains that we need fewer of them, and we certainly need policies that will allow those areas to regenerate themselves. I was pleased to note that the NPPF mentioned the need to remove “barriers to investment”. That is one of the key developments that I hope will result from the implementation of the Government’s plans.

Reference has been made to the need to speed up the system. Local plans and development frameworks take an age to proceed from A to Z. Reference has also been made to consultation. Yes, we need consultation, because we need that bottom-up feedback from local people, but we must recognise that plans need to be determined quickly. Along with my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), who represents a neighbouring constituency, I have spent much time over the past year trying to overcome the barriers to a major development in our area, caused partly by the fact that the overall process does not recognise the commercial pressures on potential investors to meet needs in the face of competing areas and, in some instances, competing countries. Speed is also essential for those who oppose developments. A week or so ago we debated High Speed 2 and the possibility that areas could be blighted for many years while waiting for decisions to be taken. Both sides need urgency, therefore.

The transition period is a concern, and I hope the Minister will spell out how areas without local plans in place will be dealt with. Many Members have also asked about the definition of sustainable. It is one of those warm and cuddly words that we are all supposed to hug to ourselves, because none of us wants our local papers to report that we support unsustainable development or want an unsustainable economy. We do need a proper definition of sustainable, however, and I ask the Minister to supply one.

[Andrew Percy]

We should pay tribute to those councillors who are leading on sustainability and community-led plans. As my hon. Friend knows, in our area, North Lincolnshire council—the only council to pass from Labour control to Tory control in May—has already established proper mechanisms to get communities up and running and to get community plans written up so we have them in place for when this transition happens. We should pay tribute to our hard-working councillors.

[Martin Vickers]

My hon. Friend, who is rapidly becoming the intervener-in-chief on the Government Benches, makes a welcome contribution to the debate, and I heartily support what he says, of course.

Despite the few caveats I have mentioned, I wholeheartedly support what the Government are doing, and the sooner they get on with it, the better.

15:17

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I represent Luton South and live in south-east England, where there is a great and pressing need for affordable housing. I am sad about the demise of the regional spatial strategies, but I appreciate that other Members do not share my opinion, and I recognise that they will not be reintroduced any time soon. They did, however, put in place a requirement for local authorities to work together to solve their housing needs.

[Martin Horwood]

Regional spatial strategies did not encourage local authorities to work together; they imposed things from on high. The south-west RSS took six years, cost £10 million to develop, was never implemented and attracted 35,000 objections.

[Gavin Shuker]

That highlights the point I have just made: Members have different opinions. I regularly knock on doors in my constituency and find people living in the most terrible circumstances, with private landlords taking advantage of them. I am torn about whether to report that to a housing department, as I know that there is such limited housing stock. It is therefore worth looking at different areas in different ways.

There is a quiet crisis in housing across the south-east in particular, but also in other areas. I am certainly not opposed to simplifying the planning system; one of our jobs as Members of Parliament is to simplify things. However, to slim down a 1,000-page brain surgery manual, as it were, to just 60 pages is not the best way to proceed. The best way to proceed is to say that we want to have more housing and more localism, and that we want people to have choices in decisions affecting their own constituencies and communities. We want to do that sensibly, however, which is why this debate has been very good so far.

Many of today’s speeches have been wish lists of various items about which people are concerned, and mine will be no different. I have specific concerns about a number of areas and I hope that the Minister will respond to them consensually at the end of the debate.

My first concern relates to sustainable development, about which we have heard from Members on both sides of the House. I have counted four or perhaps five possible definitions of “sustainable development” published either by this Government or previous ones. I have shadowed the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs team and seen sustainability go from being the sole remit of one Department to being mainstreamed. The Department for Communities and Local Government has been one of the major winners from that. As I have shadowed the DEFRA team, I know that DCLG has probably scored more points against DEFRA than Labour Members have, and that applies on various things, including bin taxes. There is uncertainty about “sustainable development” and its definition, and it is important that the body of this policy framework defines incredibly clearly what that is. Brundtland’s work obviously provides a good starting point, but the tighter the definition the easier it will become for planning applications to go through and for us not to end up with things in court for six or seven years when the definition could be clearly set out from the start. If we want more affordable housing, we need to be clear and exact in our definitions—that is a great place to start.

The Attlee Government enacted sites of special scientific interest in the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949, and we have been clear about wanting to maintain those protections. The chief executive of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, Mike Clarke, has stated:

“One thing the final plans must state clearly is protection from development for some of the nation’s finest wildlife sites—those areas designated as Sites of Special Scientific Interest. We have received legal advice this week which suggests that the proposals as they stand will weaken protection for these areas.”

[Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that SSSIs and areas of outstanding natural beauty result from environmental legislation, not the planning process?

[Gavin Shuker]

I am not entirely clear on the hon. Lady’s point.

[Sheryll Murray]

We are discussing the NPPF, which I understand will not do anything about the existing SSSIs and AONBs.

[Gavin Shuker]

I am happy to clear that up for the hon. Lady, as I do not believe that is the case. The NPPF does not abolish any of those things, but the RSPB, which has taken independent legal advice, has suggested that it might “weaken protection” for those areas. For that reason, it is incredibly important that we get this right, as Members on both sides of the House would want to make sure that the best protections are in place.

In a former life—if it is indeed possible to have a former life after only 18 months in this House—I shadowed on forestry for the Opposition. I have concerns about the effect of this framework on forests. We know that DEFRA has made a forced U-turn on the issue and we are all awaiting the findings of the interim report by Bishop James Jones on forestry in the next few months. I am concerned that the presumed “yes”, which does not apply to ancient woodland—that is a good move and we are very positive about it—applies to other woodland. We have particular concerns about the effect on areas such as the Forest of Dean. Normally, we grow trees, chop them down and then allow them to grow back, but the areas left fallow may be subjected to the conditional “yes”—the presumed “yes”—to sustainable development. It is very important that we examine that in more detail.

One other area of particular interest to my constituents and to those of many hon. Members is protecting village and town greens. I live in a constituency that has one of the highest population densities in the country. We know that it is important that we do not just have urban sprawl and that green areas and green spaces need to be protected in our towns. I welcome the protections for green areas and green spaces, but to ask local communities to get together to raise the money to protect those spaces—the consultation suggested it could cost £1,000 just to get the process started—might not be the best possible way to proceed.

Let me turn to a few other areas of the legislation. I was pleased to hear the Minister’s warm words on brownfield. I hope he will define it more clearly as time goes on and give us the opportunity to respond on his reworded NPPF on brownfield sites. We understand that brownfield is important; last year 76% of homes built across the country were on brownfield sites. The policy was working well, so we need to be careful if we tinker with it.

In summary, I want development. I want to see more affordable homes and I want to see people living with what they deserve in a country that, despite the current austerity, remains one of the richest in the world—that is, a decent home, a decent job and green and pleasant space to enjoy wherever they live, whether it is the countryside or the town. There is a difference, however, between brevity and clarity in the planning framework, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) pointed out. In the rush to brevity, we must not overlook the need for clarity, which is the best way of ensuring that planning decisions are taken in a timely fashion and in the right way.

In my area, the local core strategy is split between two different areas—Central Bedfordshire and Luton—that, regrettably, could not agree on the local plan. Central Bedfordshire has adopted its plan, but Luton remains unprotected against predatory and subjective applications. I hope that the transitional arrangements will ensure that local authorities are given time to put core strategies and local plans in place to protect their areas. Otherwise, my fear is that we will not deliver on the promise on which we were elected to this House—to ensure that people have decent homes, decent jobs and a pleasant environment to enjoy.

15:26

[Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker), as always. The subject of planning and development, and more recently the national planning policy framework, matters a great deal to my constituents in Winchester and Chandler’s Ford—and that is an understatement. If I was in any doubt about that fact, the past few months, as the ministerial team knows, have clarified matters somewhat.

At the end of September, we had the long-awaited decision of the Secretary of State in response to the planning inspector’s recommendation for 2,000 homes on the now infamous Barton Farm site, owned by CALA Homes. In the words of the Secretary of State in his decision document,

“a decision to grant planning permission is likely to undermine the process of Blueprint which is clearly an important policy objective for Winchester and, as the Inspector notes, the community has contributed considerable time and effort to this process”.

That is called localism and I have no doubt whatsoever that had that decision been taken by a Secretary of State in the previous Government, it would have been rubber-stamped and once again key decisions affecting my constituents would have been taken over their heads.

It would have been quite wrong for the planning inspector, or even the Secretary of State, to make the decision and it has now returned to where it should always have been—in the hands of democratically elected local councillors. As I have made clear many times, localism does not mean saying no any more than it means an automatic yes. It simply means a local decision, taken by local people, with a clear and transparent evidence base, in the local interest and—this is the key point—by local politicians who are accountable at the ballot box. That might be an uncomfortable position for some councillors and I am sure it was far easier when Ministers took the flak, but the new way must be right. It is what I and many colleagues campaigned on for many years before entering this House and I want to be clear in saying today that I still believe in localism—and Father Christmas.

Since publication of the NPPF in August, there has been clarification of the strength of feeling on the issue in my constituency. I agree with the coalition Government’s commitment to decentralising power and making the planning process more accessible. I pay tribute to the Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), who I have known for many years and who brings an enormous amount of personal credibility to this subject. I know that he wants to get this right for all our sakes.

I think that my constituents want their councillors and community groups to use the planning system for properly planned growth in their neighbourhoods and, equally, to protect what they hold dear about them. Somewhere, the process of localism has stumbled in recent months and it has not yet secured the confidence of the many highly informed organisations and individuals in my constituency, such as the Alresford society, the city of Winchester trust and the Winchester city residents association, to name just a few groups. Among the very thoughtful and sensible individuals who regularly bring their many years of experience to their local Member of Parliament, two names that spring to mind are Keith Storey and Bob Howland—and I thank them for that.

The NPPF presents an opportunity, when the Government respond to their consultation, to replace what I see as qualified localism with a purer form of localism. Paragraph 48 of the NPPF sets out the requirement to meet

“unmet requirements from neighbouring authorities where it is practical to do so”.

I have to say that deep unease about this has been conveyed to me locally. Winchester city council has undertaken a great deal of cross-boundary work, through the development of joint studies, where there are common issues to be explored, and it is an active partner in the partnership for urban south Hampshire, known as PUSH. It is rightly concerned, and has expressed its concerns to me, that local authorities are not likely to be able or willing to provide for the development requirements of a neighbouring local authority and that it is an unreasonable requirement for local unmet needs to be picked up by neighbouring authorities.

Paragraph 109 contains the requirement to provide an additional 20% of specific deliverable sites within a five-year housing supply to allow for choice and competition. There has been much talk about that this afternoon. The NPPF should make it clear that the identification of sites for housing and the maintenance of a rolling supply is a monitoring issue rather than a development target. The 20% addition is unnecessary and should go.

There has been much focus on the now iconic phrase

“presumption in favour of sustainable development”.

I find this slightly odd because there is and always has been a presumption that an application will receive planning permission unless it is contrary to national or local planning policies. If it is refused, clear “material” reasons for the refusal must be given. That is where we have been for many years. However, to require “sustainable” development assumes that this is a black-and-white issue and that a development is either sustainable or not. The criteria used to assess sustainable development in the NPPF, and in the Localism Bill, cover economic, social and environmental issues. If the NPPF is to promote the concept of sustainable development—and I know that that is the wish—it should set out a clear definition with a list of desirable factors that need to be satisfied. As the city of Winchester trust says in its response to the consultation, and as it has said to me, the word “sustainable” is used so many times in the draft document that it comes across more as a brand than as a matter of substance. Town and country planning is, in the trust’s view, a discipline that is based on weighing up all the material issues, and then making a judgment. The trust goes on to say that there should be a presumption in favour of development that complies with adopted national and local planning policy—and I have to say that its Member of Parliament agrees.

Paragraph 165 of the NPPF states that local plans should allocate, first,

“land with the least environmental or amenity value”.

I think that Ministers feel that this is the way in which the NPPF says “brownfield first”, but we do not have the luxury of subtlety. If that is what we mean, we should say so and be clear in the document.

My reading of the NPPF shows an inconsistency between the desire for what it calls “succinct Local Plans” and the presumption in favour of sustainable development. It states that planning permission should be granted where the plan is “absent, silent” or “indeterminate” on a point. Surely, that will steer plan makers towards producing plans that deal with every eventuality to ensure that plans are not silent on, or fail to deal with, a possible development proposal. That suggests that local plans will need to be very detailed and comprehensive rather than succinct.

That leads me to another question: what are the transitional arrangements and will the Minister say whether an emerging plan will have sufficient weight as emerging policy to ensure that my constituents are not wide open? Finally, will he confirm beyond doubt that when a local plan is agreed and in place it has primacy? If it does not, we will have not the pure localism that I mentioned, or even qualified localism, but localism that does not mean very much at all.

In conclusion, planning is, as the NPPF rightly says, about a balance of economic, social and environmental issues. Almost every correspondence I have had on the subject has made the point that the repeated emphasis on economic growth in the document creates a slightly unbalanced document and ignores or understates the other two considerations. It should be left to individual local authorities to determine how much weight and emphasis should be given to economic considerations when framing their plans and taking decisions. So, I make a simple plea that we should trust local people— I think the Minister is absolutely right and he knows that I have campaigned alongside him on this for many years—believe in localism in its truest form and let people get on with the job.

15:34

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

I speak today as someone who has spent four years of my life dealing with the planning system in London. Before becoming an MP, I was a councillor in Lewisham and had responsibility for regeneration. I worked with planners, with developers and with the community, and I can say that in some ways it was the best job of my life and in others the worst.

I know how controversial planning applications can be, and I know how fiercely people will defend their own interests. There is nothing wrong with that, but someone, somewhere has to take a decision about the wider interests of the community, and indeed the wider interests of the country. Sometimes that will fall to councillors, but sometimes the responsibility will stop at the door of the Government. I have a real concern that on the evidence of the past 18 months this Government are not up to the task. They want to wash their hands of the task of setting out a vision of where in the country new homes will be built and where new jobs will be created. They talk about sustainable development but fail to provide an adequate definition. They hide behind a smokescreen of empowering communities through neighbourhood plans, but then use the planning system as a political football to justify the lack of economic growth.

In my view, the planning system is a vital tool in helping to create places where people want to live.

[Henry Smith]

Will not the hon. Lady concede that during the last decade and a bit of the previous Government, despite the massive top-down, centrally planned housing targets, house building fell to its lowest level since the 1920s? How does she reconcile those two things?

[Heidi Alexander]

I know that the hon. Gentleman has not been here for the whole debate. We have heard convincing evidence from a number of hon. Members about how house building and, most importantly, the building of affordable houses increased over the last decade.

I was setting out why I believe the planning system is so important. It is one of the only ways in which we can determine where to locate the things that we all need but perhaps do not like, such as places to deal with our rubbish and noisy hospitals with lots of traffic. It is also one of the only ways in which we can start to change how we live in the future. It is a simple fact that we need fewer cars on our roads. That will happen only if the jobs of tomorrow are located in places where public transport is good and if new homes are built in places where people can walk to the shops. That is what sustainable development is about. It is not just about shiny bits of eco kit on buildings; it is about how we live our lives. It is about investment in our town centres, making the most of brownfield land in our cities and protecting those parts of the countryside that we all hold dear.

The Government tell us that the planning system is a brake on economic growth and that planners are the enemies of enterprise. That is rubbish. In 2010-11, 86% of planning applications were approved, and 90% of commercial applications were approved. In London, planning permission exists for 170,000 homes on which work has yet to start. It is not the planning system that is stopping those homes being built; it is the availability of developer and mortgage finance.

[Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)]

The hon. Lady speaks of 86% of planning applications having been approved, but does she have information on how many times those applicants have been round the block? In my experience, what tends to happen is that people apply once, get refused and have to apply again, having changed something. That is what we mean by a brake that is slowing the process.

[Heidi Alexander]

I do not have the figures that the hon. Lady requests, but I was about to go on to say that we need to look at more than planning policy; we need to look at the planning process. That may address one of the issues that she touches on.

I accept that it can take a long time to get planning applications approved, but we have to make sure that there are enough resources in council planning departments to deal with applications speedily and sort out, at the outset, some of the problems to which the hon. Lady refers. We all know that council and, indeed, planning department budgets are coming under huge pressure as a result of the Government’s austerity programme.

We also have to look at perceptions of the planning system and do more to encourage developers and planners to work more collaboratively. I say this as a politician: one of the biggest frustrations for developers is the politics in all this, such as the planning application that gets stuck in a council a year before an election and is not decided. A whole range of issues impact on problems with the planning system. The Government are wrong to look at planning policy on its own, and it is wrong to assume that a slimline version of the NPPF is the answer to the country’s economic woes.

It is wrong to assume, too, that just because the NPPF is much shorter than previous planning guidance it is any clearer—a point that has been made in our debate. There is a real danger that the NPPF is a blank cheque for planning lawyers. As Simon Jenkins pointed out when he gave evidence to the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government this week, the document is littered with adverbs. On the basis of the NPPF, developers can argue for “acceptable” returns. Acceptable to whom? Something that is acceptable to me is probably very different from something that is acceptable to the chairman of a big house-builder. The document refers to the fact that councils can refuse applications where the adverse affects “significantly” and “demonstrably” outweigh the benefits. If ever there was a word for lawyers to fight over, surely “significantly” is it. The document is sloppy and ambiguous, and it could have a raft of unintended consequences.

My other main concern about the NPPF relates to whether it does enough to address some of the big challenges that we face as country. Let us take the example of affordable housing. The framework does away with previous targets for the amount of affordable housing that should be provided by developers when they are building schemes where the majority of homes are for sale on the open market. It is left to councils to decide whether they have such targets. It is the same for the threshold for when any affordable housing requirement must kick in: local councils can decide. That is not to mention the issue of what constitutes “affordable housing”, or how housing requirements are properly assessed.

[Mark Pawsey]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Heidi Alexander]

I have given way several times, and I am conscious that many Members wish to speak.

The housing needs of my constituents in Lewisham are not going to be met in Lewisham alone. If every house built in Lewisham over the next 10 years was an affordable home—and I mean genuinely affordable—we would still not solve our housing crisis. There has to a Government plan to deal with this. There is not, and on the basis of the NPPF, I fear that the problem will just get worse.

I question the usefulness of a document that contains stronger stipulations about the habitats of birds than it does on, say, housing for the elderly. There is a one-word reference to the way in which councils should take into account the housing needs of older people, compared with a very clear statement about sites protected under the birds and habitats directives. I am not against the inclusion of clear guidance on bird habitats, but I am against the absence of clear guidance on planning for the enormous demographic challenges that our country faces.

Before I conclude, I should like to touch on the apparent contradiction between the NPPF and the Government’s supposed commitment to giving local people more say over what happens in their neighbourhood. During our deliberations on the Localism Bill, I said that neighbourhood plans would serve to stoke up communities’ expectations about their ability to say “no” to development in their area—a nimby’s charter. However, according to the Government, the default answer to development should be yes. How can the two be compatible?

I put it to the Government that they have over-hyped localism. Neighbourhood plans have been sold on a false prospectus. They will not deliver power to communities to define the sort of development that they want to see in their area, as neighbourhood plans have generally to conform with the council’s strategic plan, which in turn must be consistent with the NPPF requirements on meeting housing need. The only way neighbourhood plans will work is if communities ask for lots and lots of new homes to be built. They may well do so in Tunbridge Wells, but that is not my experience in Lewisham.

In conclusion, the Government appear to have a laudable “consensus” view of planning. They believe that local people, working with local authorities, will ultimately deliver plans that meet the needs of the nation as a whole. I am not so sure that they will. Planning is ultimately a mechanism to resolve fierce competition over a finite resource. Judgments must be made in a balanced way, and consideration must be given to the environment and society, as much as to the economy. Planning policy and guidance has a role to play in setting out how those decisions are taken. Yes, planning policy could and should be streamlined, but let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater. As a local civic amenities society in my constituency, the Culverley Green residents association, stated in an e-mail to me this week:

“Revision is a reasonable option but a bonfire is not.”

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. To accommodate more Members, the time limit on speeches is being reduced to five minutes. That is a ceiling, so Members should not feel that it is necessary to fill the five minutes, as others wish to speak.

15:45

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to today’s debate, which holds great significance for my constituents. I want to explain why I support the Government’s general approach in the draft NPPF and point to areas where I think it could be honed and improved. If the Government take on those suggestions, it might allay some of my constituents’ current concerns. To do that, we need to assess where we are coming from, with regard to the current planning system, and to consider where the proposals will lead our communities and how our communities will engage in the planning process in future.

The current system—the previous Government’s approach—was quite simple: there were top-down targets, with the Government deciding numbers, and local people could decide where to impose the Government’s will. It was a classic “Government knows best” approach. I applaud the current Government on their approach of freeing up local communities to set their own course and allowing them to set a local vision. It gives local people a real say in planning that vision and more control over their own destiny, which I think is incumbent on a Government led by the Conservative party.

It will be a day of liberation when the Localism Bill receives Royal Assent and the ghastly regional spatial strategies, which many of my constituents have feared for years, disappear. However, I fear that before we get planning liberation several of the local communities I represent might be caught with unwanted developments as a result of a lack of coherence in the planning strategy of the Labour-controlled Nuneaton and Bedworth borough council, where contradictory assessments of housing need have already lead to one unwanted development being imposed by the Planning Inspectorate.

We must also recognise that although locally based planning is vital, for consistency of approach we also need a strong national framework. I am encouraged by the draft NPPF that the Government have put before us and by their intention to balance the important concept of local planning with the fact that we are all living longer, more of us want to live apart than together and that we all need those homes for our children for the future, which is a major concern in many constituencies.

The draft NPPF cuts the current guidance down to size and puts it into a format that can be understood not only by planners in town halls, but by the communities we all serve. It is clear that if people put their local plans in place and get all their ducks in a row, based on clear evidence, their communities will be protected from speculative developers and the will of the Planning Inspectorate. It is clear that the local plan will hold primacy. However, I have some suggestions for the Government.

First, the NPPF contains a carrot-and-stick approach; the presumption in favour of sustainable development being the stick, and the fact that the presumption will not be effective if an evidenced-based plan is in place being the carrot. The Government must honour that principle, because some planning authorities are more advanced in putting together their local plans than others. We cannot have an indefinite and open-ended situation in which local authorities decide not to put local plans in place, but I think that we should give them the opportunity to put their local plans in place as quickly as possible by allowing a transitional period in which they can do that. I welcome the comments that the Minister made on that this afternoon.

[David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Jones]

I am sorry; unfortunately, because of the time I have left, I cannot give way.

Local plans must be based on up-to-date local evidence; they must not be predicated just on figures hanging around from the RSS if they are not appropriate to the local community. I hope that the inspectors who check those plans and the evidence base in them will look at truly local evidence, and do so with a fresh set of eyes, not through regional spatial strategy-tinted spectacles. I fear that, if the Government do not make sure of that, it will come back to haunt many of our communities.

15:50

[Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

There have been many good contributions today, and many points have been made, but in the short time that we have been squeezed into I want to focus on some issues in Hyndburn.

First, the north is not the south, and one cap does not fit all. The pressure in the national planning policy framework to build, and the under-supply of housing in the south which is driving that, will simply cause problems in Hyndburn.

Secondly, the framework document exists in a vacuum, ignoring other Government policies on sustainable communities, health outcomes and the effects of brownfield sites in areas such as mine, which are of predominantly low value and experience low demand. The consequences of concentrating development on those sites will be detrimental.

[Gavin Shuker]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the complexity he mentions is a primary reason why, when the framework comes back to the House, we need a full, affirmative vote on it ?

[Graham Jones]

Yes, I do, and that was a very good intervention.

Given that this is a housing supply-side problem, I have every sympathy with the Government’s presumption in favour of sustainable development, and they are attempting to achieve what the previous Government also tried.

Parts of the national planning policy framework are to be welcomed, particularly the removal of brownfield targets for housing; the protection of community facilities in inner-urban areas; green space designation, which the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) mentioned and which should be used as a tool to green our towns and cities; and the issue of Traveller sites, which I do not wish to go into but do support.

[Mrs Glindon]

My hon. Friend mentions several things that could be included in the document, but many hon. Members have said that empty housing should be included more forcefully. Does my hon. Friend agree?

[Graham Jones]

Absolutely. My hon. Friend has obviously seen an advance copy of my speech.

The planning document is crude, and I want to highlight some of its failings, which I hope the Minister will consider. I accept that in some areas of the south there is an insufficient availability of housing land, but I do not want to say any more about the southern dilemma. I want to reflect on why the framework will not work in Hyndburn and some of the old industrial towns of the north.

In the document, there are two particular spatial planning failures. The first is on empty homes, and it was raised by the hon. Members for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) and for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), and by my hon. Friends the Members for North Tyneside and for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt). The issue clearly has cross-party support, but there is nothing substantial about it in the NPPF. There should be, and we should do more about it. In my constituency there are 2,500 empty homes, and those properties must be part of any housing consideration. The national planning policy must include a presumption—of first preference, I would argue—that they are brought back into use. Brownfield and greenfield sites should be somewhat secondary.

The national planning policy framework also takes a blanket view on sustainable development. Unmanaged sustainable development will not abate the over-supply of housing in my constituency but exacerbate the problem.

Secondly, there is the issue of old factory sites in my constituency and the gaping hole in the definition of sustainability, which my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) mentioned. “Sustainability” is quite a loose word in the document, and I am concerned about that, because it does not recognise some of the important aspects of sustainable communities which go beyond housing. Put simply, inner-urban brownfield development can be a disaster for poor and deprived communities, and there is a case in some areas for a policy of no more urban infill. We need a framework that alleviates the problems of an ageing stock where there is de-population, a static population or sufficient housing.

Hyndburn is a constituency where 89% of people live in an urban area, and in many neighbourhoods there is a lack of open space and recreational areas. As hon. Members are probably aware, it has row after row of terraced housing sitting by derelict former mills and factories, now classed as brownfield sites, for which housing planning permission is frequently sought. It comes as no surprise that Hyndburn has one of the lowest rates of physical activity for adults in England. It has consistently been in the lowest 25% of all localities as regards adults having 30 minutes of physical activity three times a week. Consequently, it has poor and/or chronic health statistics. The impact of this national planning policy framework on health and lifestyle inequalities cannot be underestimated.

The previous “brownfield first” presumption on which much of this debate focuses favours the rich and privileged on the urban fringes and works against the urban poor. It is not fair to maintain an expectation that the poor who neighbour many old brownfield sites should shoulder the burden of housing development. It is no wonder that the gap between the rich and the poor is widening when the national planning policy framework sits in a policy vacuum where it has no relation to, and works against, the objectives of other Government Departments.

Health inequalities are widening. The Prime Minister’s happiness index would do well to reflect the national planning policy framework as regards some of these sites. If the Government are serious about putting forth an agenda of improving the health of our people, they must resist the further crowding of densely populated urban areas by brownfield developmental pressure. A free-for-all urban infill based on gross housing need simply will not work in my constituency.

To put that in perspective, 60% of the terraced houses in my constituency sit cheek by jowl with old unwanted industrial sites. For the past 20 years, I have lived in one of the most deprived wards where, as one would expect, there are all the social problems that the Government wish to address. We must resist a “brownfield first” presumption of development of such former industrial sites. One of those in my neighbourhood stands out as a particularly good example, as it is turned over to housing. It is surrounded by old Victorian property that sells for £40,000 per house. Many properties have been boarded up or are empty; most of the remainder are in the hands of landlords who do not really care much for the area. I am sure that hon. Members understand the issues. The pressure to release the brownfield site resulted in a successful housing application to build what can only be described as the slums of tomorrow. No one is willing to develop a former industrial site in a poor area with five-bedroom luxury homes and open space, and the national planning policy framework will not prevent that from continuing. I hope that the Minister will address my concerns.

15:57

[Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)]

We have learned this afternoon of the momentous news from Libya of the death of Colonel Gaddafi. On Sunday, the European Heads of Government meet to consider the eurozone crisis, and we have our own debate on this issue on Monday. Parliament often considers these great matters of state and international affairs, but often our work as Members of Parliament is more drawn to the issues that we have covered in today’s debate. Planning issues that shape people’s lives and communities are the bread and butter of our work as Members of Parliament and the work of this House. It is a timely debate, and it has been interesting and illuminating to hear from colleagues from all around the country of their own experiences of planning. I will also draw briefly on my own experiences.

There has been much reference to the position of the National Trust as against that of the Government. The National Trust’s manifesto for planning states:

“Effective planning should promote good development, which contributes to prosperity and growth.”

I think that every one of us would agree with that. It is totally consistent with the policies set out by the Government and with having planning based on good local plans that include a sound assessment of local economic need and of the needs of local individuals.

Some of the remarks by Labour Members have presented us with a false dilemma and a false challenge that is not borne out by people’s experience. It is suggested that development would take place in urban centres only if it were required and incentivised by the Government, and that development out of urban areas is unnecessary and promoted only because it may be cheap and expedient. Those of us who represent urban and rural communities are aware that such development can be a very important trigger for bringing in investment and helping to stimulate the local economy. That applies just as much to small rural villages and seaside towns, such as Folkestone in my constituency, as to major urban centres.

Over a number of years, Labour and Conservative Governments have pursued a strategy of urban and civic renewal and many of our major cities have benefited from that consensus. However, we should also consider the need for development in rural communities, such as the villages in the middle of Romney Marsh in my constituency. I had a meeting with representatives of Newchurch parish council, which is right in the middle of Romney Marsh. They expressed their frustration that they had been blocked in trying to get planning permission for a small amount of rural development in the village which might have made the community more sustainable. People with rural constituencies will be familiar with such planning concerns.

It has been suggested in this debate that the regional spatial strategies ensured that a certain amount of housing development took place, and that without them it simply would not have happened. However, many Members will be aware that the local authorities in their constituencies have been keen to pursue a strategy for growth. Shepway district council, which covers 90% of my constituency, has set growth plans for housing that exceed the levels set in the regional spatial strategies. It understands that sensible and sustainable development can play an important role in stimulating the local economy. When that is welcomed by the community, it should be welcomed by all. I think that people realise that.

The new homes bonus is helpful because it gives local authorities a means of compensating a local community and addressing the concerns that it may have about the dilution of the quality of local services because of additional development. That is money that councils can control. For a district authority, a development of even several thousand housing units over a number of years could bring a substantial reward to the local community in investment.

Development can also support the delivery of local services, particularly the roll-out of broadband services, which are often a complaint in more remote parts of the country. The investment from the developer that comes into the community can help the roll-out and expansion of broadband services and other services. There is a lot that we can commend.

I will touch on one aspect of planning policy and of major infrastructure planning policy in particular that has affected my constituency: the planning of new nuclear planning stations. The previous Government were remiss in not allowing local economic decisions to be considered in the site-specific report. In my constituency, a new power station at Dungeness would have been of considerable benefit to the local economy. It has been held back because of planning restraints to do with nature conservation on the site around the power station. It would be welcome if the Government revisited those regulations. They are largely based on European law. In this case, they are not welcomed by the community and have put a barrier on development at the site. We should look again to see if there is the flexibility to revisit the way in which such regulations are imposed. Communities change, and the nature of regulations may no longer suit the needs of the local economy and community. We should always keep a vigilant eye on that.

16:02

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. When I was first elected as an MP, one of the older hands advised me to steer clear of planning applications and leave them to councillors because we have no power over them. I have singularly failed to follow that instruction, but then I have had two open-cast mines, a gasification plant and consultations on various supermarkets to deal with in my constituency. It has not been an issue that I could have kept out of.

Seven years as a district councillor taught me that the planning system is far too complex and that neither local people nor developers really get what they want. We tend to get a nationally enforced plan with a nationally enforced target. The council then sets a local plan and turns down applications on valid planning grounds, but then the inspectors approve them anyway. That is the worst of all worlds. What we want is clarity so that everyone can understand what should be approved and what should not. If something is turned down validly, the decision ought to stick.

I want to discuss two issues: the green belt and mineral planning. The last thing that any of us wants is to lose any green belt, which is so valuable to our communities. One thing that is certain is that once it is gone, it is unlikely to ever come back. There is one encouraging remark in the draft framework in paragraph 137:

“Once established, Green Belt boundaries should only be altered in exceptional circumstances.”

I wholeheartedly agree with that. Green belt should be changed only where it absolutely has to be. I urge my local council to bear that in mind as it looks at options for future housing development.

[David Tredinnick]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we also have to protect green wedges and agricultural blocks to avoid urban communities coming together? That is the case in Hinckley, in my Leicestershire constituency.

[Nigel Mills]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend and reiterate that point. One of the key advantages for the green belt set out in the framework is that communities will be prevented from being merged and our distinct historic communities will be maintained. When there have been threats to the green belt in my constituency in recent years, either real or rumoured, the local people have come together strongly to fight the loss. I have seen that in the village of Shipley with the Hardy Barn development, with the threats to the old American Adventure site and with the Lodge House open-cast mine in Smalley, which was sadly approved last week. There are matters still to be decided in Heage and in the villages around the Cinderhill development, where the council removed some green-belt land to try to encourage the cleaning up of an old, contaminated site.

More recently, in Ripley, the council has consulted on whether to sell land for another supermarket. I strongly welcome the framework’s stating that if councils are willing to consider out-of-town development such as supermarkets, they need to bear in mind the damage that would be done to existing shops in the town centre not just for a short period but for 10 years, when the supermarket grows and gets more popular. That is especially important because these days supermarkets sell not just food but newspapers, books and clothes and have a pharmacy, a mobile phone shop and an optician. Almost nothing in a town centre can compete if there is a supermarket like that.

The key thing for the Government now is to get the emphasis right and ensure that the green belt is strongly protected by the framework. That should come right at the start of the plan. We should say, “Okay, we have a presumption in favour of sustainable development, but we also have a strong presumption against development in the green belt.” We do not want councils to reduce the size of the green belt when they set their local plans.

I wish to mention mineral extraction. It is worth reiterating that what we put in the framework is what developers will quote when they submit their planning applications, and they will want decisions to be enforced based on it. If councils try to go beyond what is in it, there will be a real risk of successful appeal. I strongly believe that we have the balance wrong on mineral extraction. The section on minerals states first, in paragraph 103, that “significant weight” must be given to

“the benefits of the mineral extraction”,

but then paragraph 106 states that there is a presumption against the extraction of coal. I would have thought that that presumption against it should come right at the start, so that we all know we are starting from that point, especially in the case of green-belt sites. Then we could consider circumstances in which that presumption could be overturned and approval granted, so conditions could be set to ensure that excessive damage was not done to people living near the sites in question.

That is where it gets complicated for a council assessing applications. There is no guidance in the draft framework on what noise levels are acceptable at such sites. There is a comment that when a site is started, a noise level that is not generally acceptable may occur, because it is unavoidable given the blasting needed to set the site up. However, there is no comment on how long that noise can go on or how excessive it may be. If I were the applicant, I might think that six months was a short time for a four-year site, but if I were living next door to it I might think that 30 minutes was far too long for excessive noise. It will be very hard for a council to interpret that provision if there is no national guidance. Although I wholeheartedly support the need to slim down the guidance, we need some clarity about what is and is not acceptable in that situation.

I refer Ministers to the private Member’s Bill on open-cast mining separation zones, and to the amendments that I tabled to the Localism Bill to try to ensure separation. People need to be sure how close to their house a mine can be. A mine that was approved in my constituency is just over 200 metres from someone’s back door, which is far too close, especially given that open-cast mining was taken out of the neighbourhood planning process in the Localism Bill. Local communities have no protection against that.

I conclude by saying that I wholeheartedly support the simplification of the system but that some refinements to the details are still needed.

16:04

[Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con)]

The Minister is quite familiar with my constituency, given that he has been kind enough to speak to members of my association a number of times, so it will come as no surprise to him when I say that I have received more than 130 letters on the NPPF, or that more than four organisations in my constituency have contributed to the consultation. As he is aware, it is in a part of the country where people are focused on shaping the places in which they live and building their communities. They are doing that in many parts of the country, as the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) said earlier.

In the brief time available to me I want to focus on just two points. However, I would like first to thank my right hon. Friend the Minister for agreeing to meet the organisations in my constituency that are concerned about the NPPF. They include Tandridge district council, CPRE Tandridge, CPRE Surrey, the Oxted and Limpsfield residents group, Reigate and Banstead council, Nutfield residents association and Woldingham parish council, which are just a few of those that we could fit into one meeting. I thank my right hon. Friend for being open to meeting them.

Although I understand the need to simplify the planning system, the need for house building, the need for localism and the need to stimulate growth, my main consideration is the core strategy and how it will work. We have had a core strategy in Tandridge district council since 2008, and many hours have been spent developing it. The main concern now is that the transitional provisions would still leave a period of uncertainty, so why do we not let the core strategies, in which so much time has been invested, be tested out there, rather than completely overruling them?

[Nicky Morgan]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful argument. He started by talking about how many of his constituents care very much about this issue. Does he agree that it is therefore a great shame that although we have heard some powerful speeches from the Opposition, there now appear to be just three Opposition Members in the Chamber for this important debate? It may not be a debate about matters of state, but as he knows, it is about an issue of great concern to all our constituents.

[Mr Gyimah]

I thank my hon. Friend for her point, which has been well noted in Hansard.

The concern about the core strategy is that developers might take councils to appeal on every planning application because of the fact that their core strategies were developed in different times, when demands were different, and thus are not in line with the NPPF, which focuses mainly on economic needs. I seek assurances from the Minister on how consistent the transition period will be with the core strategies that have been worked on for so long.

East Surrey is 94% green belt. Again, I already know of two sites in Oxted that have been bought by developers in anticipation of the rules being relaxed. As they see it, they will be able to develop on green-belt land, which is causing a lot of anxiety among my constituents. My suggestion for the Minister is that it might be better to incentivise developers to build on brownfield sites, because we already know where they are in our core strategy and that would cause less anxiety to my constituents.

Those are my two principal points for the Minister. I again thank him for being open to meeting the groups that I have mentioned, but I would also like reassurance from him that the NPPF will protect the core strategy and the green belt. I am conscious that the consultation has just finished and that he might not be able to give me all the assurances that I need, but I would like to hear his comments about those matters.

16:13

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

Top-down, imposed on communities; done to people, not with them; reflecting the ambitions of regional quangos, not local circumstances; adversarial, pitting communities against each other and individuals against developers; lop-sided; not transparent; appeal-led; not delivering on the ground—that is where we are today with the current planning system. It is absolutely right that the Government should seek to reform it, and I welcome that. My belief is that the combination of the Localism Bill and the national planning policy framework will deliver an inclusive process that will bring people together, enabling a plan-led approach where developers and communities get round the table together to work out what is in their neighbourhood’s best interest. Such an approach will be bottom-up, secure consent, take conflict out of the system and finally be transparent in a way that it has not been until now.

I have a great deal of sympathy for what is in the NPPF and the way it relates to the Localism Bill and the need to simplify national guidance and be clear about the need for sustainable development. However, we also need to ensure that development is well planned and genuinely sustainable, and that we create a planning system that delivers attractive communities in the right places, not endless cul de sacs that, although they might cumulatively occupy a large amount of space, fail to deliver the places that people want to live in. Such places need schools and pubs, leisure facilities and green spaces. I agree with the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) that we need a clearer definition of “sustainable development” in the NPPF. We need to ensure that the provisions cover economic, social and environmental concerns together, and that no one leg of that tripod is given too much prominence.

A second major principle of the NPPF is the presumption in favour of sustainable development. I think that I understood my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr Brine) correctly when he said that the first presumption that he wanted to see in the NPPF was that development should be carried out according to local plans. He said that that should be the bottom line; it should be where we start from. That is very much the Government’s intention, and it would be useful to make that slightly clearer in the proposals.

As the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) said, when the NPPF is finalised, all existing unadopted local plans, as well as those that are in an advanced stage of preparation, will technically be out of date. As a result, the presumption in favour of sustainable development will apply to all development proposals when the contents of the NPPF become the de facto policy across the country. As I understand it, that will remain the position until local plans are updated to reflect the guidelines in the new NPPF.

Paragraph 26 of the document states:

“It will be open to local planning authorities to seek a certificate of conformity with the Framework.”

That optional approach appears to imply that the Government will offer to test the draft and adopted local development frameworks to see whether they conform with the NPPF. That raises a whole new series of questions about how an LDF based on a revoked regional strategy or on the existing PPS1 could ever meet a test of conformity with the new NPPF, especially in relation to the presumption in favour of sustainable development. When the final version of the proposals comes out, will the Minister clarify how that will work effectively? We need to be clear about the transitional arrangements because the lack of a transition plan would be an open invitation to anyone with land to put in an application to develop on it. What does the Minister think about implementing a two-year process, so that local authorities can get up to speed with their local strategic plans before the provisions come into effect?

If we get this right, we will end up with much simpler planning guidance that will significantly increase the local neighbourhood role in planning and support a genuinely more sustainable approach to development, while still delivering the homes to support the economic development that we all need.

16:18

[George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)]

I apologise in advance if, having had to truncate my remarks, they sound a little staccato and disjointed. I also draw attention to my declaration of interests in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

I want to make a few short points to Ministers and other Members. I sat on the Select Committee and heard a lot of evidence from developers and from all sorts of interested parties in planning. We face a situation in which sustainable development is being somewhat perverted by the document before us. Paragraphs 13 and 54, among many others, clearly shorten one of the three legs of sustainability—namely, that of economic growth. The table is clearly tipping in that direction, and we need to shove some pieces of paper under that leg to even it up and make it the same length as the other two. If we are to have truly sustainable development, it must take equal account of all three legs of sustainability.

Unlike many Members, I do not think that we need to do a great deal more on the definition of sustainable development. As long as local authorities are allowed to take equal note of all three corners, we will be in a good place. However, little evidence was presented to the Select Committee that planning has ever really stood in the way of economic development. That is another good reason to re-examine those provisions in the NPPF. It is equally true to say that, while planning might not have impeded economic development, it has not encouraged it much either. There is not much evidence on either side of that argument. There is certainly evidence that it is process, rather than policy, in the planning system that has caused delay, and we need to look as carefully at how we manage the planning process as at the policy that drives it.

Moving on quickly to definitions, we have two different problems at two different levels. At the general level of definition—I mention the comments of the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) about “significantly and demonstrably”—there are any number of wide-meaning phrases in the NPPF that could do with some substantial testing. Perhaps we should employ some aggressive planning lawyers; there may be one or two in here who would like the work. [Interruption.] There is none present at the moment. We need to be absolutely confident that there can be a generally accepted definition of these terms; otherwise we will end up in severe trouble and face many delays over the next few years.

We have also heard a lot of evidence to show that we need to define more clearly things that are important to local authorities. Let me quote Winchester city council here:

“The brevity of the draft NPPF is refreshing but there are many matters that have been removed in their entirety. For example, guidance which explains how noise issues, specialised rural housing, enforcement, and historical assets and landscapes…should be dealt with”.

This issue is going to come back again and again. I have a short suggestion for Ministers. I have not thought this through terribly carefully but there are a lot of existing policies on these issues. Could we make these available to local authorities to adopt in whole or in part, or could they be modified in a way we find acceptable and then be made available for adoption if authorities thought they were sensible, particularly at a time of strained assets and strained capabilities in local government?

I have another little idea—re-inspection of local plans. It seems to me that a lot of the tension we have at the moment happens because plans can go out of date. The NPPF says very particularly that where a plan is out of date and demonstrably so, the presumption is in favour of development. Why can we not have a light-touch re-inspection on a regular basis? Each local authority is currently mandated to produce an annual report, so why could it not entail a very short re-adoption of the local plan with minimal consultation to see if the major tenets of the plan have changed? If we did that, we would not only have robustness against challenge from developers, but we might even be able to lose the 20% over-allocation, because that would have been regularly monitored throughout the period of the plan. That might satisfy many different constituencies.

On the interregnum, I believe, as others have said, that two years is a good number in which to adopt a new plan, which will then come into force. It is essential, however, that that is an absolute limit. One of the great attractions of the NPPF is that it forces local authorities to put plans in place. There must not be any budging on that. We are left, are we not, with two alternatives? Do we allow the current local plan derived from the regional spatial strategy to continue for two years, or do we give increasing weight to the emerging new local plan? I favour the latter course, but we need to make a decision on that front.

There are many other important issues—the balance of process, brownfield sites, “city centre first”, the balance of spatial planning, the “larger than local” planning—but far too little time to cover them. The broad thrust of the changes is right. If we put power back in the hands of local people and make the plan robust to challenge, we will all be in a much better place.

16:22

[Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)]

I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Following the spirit of what the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) said, I mention the fact that my family are members of the National Trust. I was a member until I came to this place and now have no time to visit its beautiful houses and locations—but perhaps I will again one day.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this afternoon’s debate. During the conference recess, I attended a number of meetings on this subject in my constituency and I would like to pay tribute to the Garendon Park Countryside Protection group, the Barrow residents action group and the Loughborough south-west action group, all of which took the time to brief me on their thoughts and concerns about what is being proposed.

As we have heard, planning is a popular issue for constituents to write about. I estimate that about 100 people contacted me through individual letters, which were often signed by many more people, and those letters were about the framework, the Localism Bill or specific planning applications within the last few months. I am not at all surprised to hear the Minister say that there have been 10,000 responses to the consultation on the framework. I wish him well in reading them all—or, at least, a proportion of them.

We have heard the current planning system mentioned this afternoon. I have to say that I do not think the current system has anything to recommend it. I have not been a local councillor, but I am married to one and I have watched him grapple with the system as it affects councils in my constituency. I think the current planning rules are inaccessible for local residents; I think 1,000 pages is far too long. I believe the current system is basically a lawyers charter—and I speak as a former lawyer. Communities feel shut out of the process: there are limited grounds for objection—I cannot think how many times we have had to ensure that there are highways grounds or other reasons for objecting—and those wishing to develop land have no obligation to consult. I consider that a mistake but it is something that the framework will put right.

The hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), who, unfortunately, is no longer in her place, was right about the planning process: planning applications take too long and appeals are too costly. That is why we need a proper plan-led system, which the framework will deliver. I have already told the Minister privately that, although much of the discussion has been about house building, we have forgotten the needs of business. Small businesses in my constituency often need places to expand, but, as I said in an intervention, people often have to go around the houses several times before getting their applications approved. I would like to think that that would not be the case if we could get the system working as we want it to work.

As we have heard from Members on both sides of the House, we all know of people who cannot get on to the housing ladder, whether for affordable housing, family housing or older people’s accommodation. There is definitely a need for more housing, but it has to be where people want it to be in their local communities. We have also heard how the planning system is in limbo and leaves councils vulnerable to speculative applications. I have taken that point from a recent paper presented to the Charnwood borough council cabinet by the planning officers. We cannot allow this limbo to continue for too much longer.

I am broadly supportive of the aims of the framework, but I would like clarification on some key areas. We have talked about the presumption in favour of sustainable development. At the risk of ousting the DCLG officials, who, I am sure, have given this much more thought than I have, I would argue that sustainable development might be better achieved through the general principle of building long-term successful communities that support economic growth, environmental protection and general well-being—to use that rather woolly phrase mentioned earlier. There also needs to be further clarification of the relationship between local authorities and neighbourhood plans.

I endorse the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr Brine). If we believe in localism, which I think Government Members do, we have to go for it; we cannot have half-baked localism. I am unhappy, therefore, about the idea of a five-year supply of housing land plus the 20% allowance, which seems to contradict the Government’s aim of abolishing top-down housing targets. I also endorse what has been said about the use of existing housing stock. Loughborough has a number of houses that used to be occupied by students but which are now sitting empty. I would like the council, supported by the Government, to find innovative ways of bringing those houses back into family use.

We have talked about markets, and I entirely endorse what the hon. Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey) said about their importance in town centres. We have already talked about transition arrangements. It has become clear to me that there is other guidance that might not fall within the planning system—I am talking particularly about highways. I discovered this week something called, “Manual for Streets 2”, which talks about traffic junctions, which appear to be driving the need for the council to give the go-ahead for a development in Barrow upon Soar. That cannot be right.

I thank the Government for providing the time for this debate. I cannot remember the last time that we debated something while it was still in consultation.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Because people have shown restraint, for which I am extremely grateful, I can increase the time limit back to six minutes. We should get everybody in.

16:28

[Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

I hope that I do not take my six minutes, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Like many other hon. Members, I have served as a local councillor and grappled with the complicated planning system over a number of years. I would like to thank my right hon. Friend the Minister for the fantastic effort that he has put into the Localism Bill. The planning proposals represent a serious move towards achieving the localism agenda, and I know that my constituents will benefit hugely from them. They will make the planning system clearer, more democratic, more effective and give real power to local people to determine planning permission themselves or at least to have their views taken into account.

That is necessary. The economic climate means that local councils across the country do not have the money to spend on lengthy, costly planning appeals, as has been mentioned. The national planning policy framework provides guidance for local councils on drawing up local development plans and empowers local communities to come together, through local parish councils or neighbourhood forums, to draw up neighbourhood plans for the local areas that they know best. The neighbourhood plans will be included in the local development framework, and I understand that it is those documents that will be used to determine planning applications, giving people a real say in what happens to their local areas.

Proposals for local green space designation and the identification of suitable areas for renewable and low-carbon energy are extremely welcome. We must bear in mind that protections conferred by earlier legislation will still apply to, for instance, areas of outstanding natural beauty, but I am keen for councils to back them up with good neighbourhood plans. I know from my experience as a councillor, and from talking to my constituents, that it is local people who show real passion and enthusiasm for their own areas, and it is right that their voices should be heard.

There is just one point that I should like clarified. Will some sort of contingency plan be provided when a council does not have a live local plan to protect it from unwanted development?

16:31

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to contribute to the debate. While I endorse the vast bulk of the Government’s proposals, because I have only six minutes I shall focus on the one tiny aspect of the framework that causes me slight concern. I refer to the chapter on the historic environment.

I have two non-pecuniary interests to declare. First, for reasons that I do not yet understand, I am still a member of the National Trust—an organisation which, it must be said, has not risen in my estimation in recent weeks. Perhaps more important is the fact that I am also a member of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns for the protection of buildings constructed during the last century. When the society first comes into contact with many heritage assets, they are not designated as listed assets, so it finds it very difficult to persuade Governments to take them seriously. What worries the society, and many amenity societies, is that the “Historic environment” chapter concerns only designated heritage assets, and does not refer to other aspects of heritage that may be brought into play.

I fear that, given the emphasis on localism, neighbourhood planning and local groups at the grass roots, on the bringing together of local plans and on putting what local people want first, many types of architectural heritage that ought to be valued but, for one reason or another, may not be will not be given the full consideration that they deserve. That may strike many Members as a subtle discrepancy, but I think it is an important one. Let me give an example.

Each year, the World Monuments Fund—many Members may not know of its existence, but I assure them that it does exist—issues a “watch” that lists sites around the world that are of historical importance and under great threat. This month’s watch has adopted “British brutalism” as a genre. I assure Members that that refers not to the Chamber but to three sites in the United Kingdom: the South Bank, which the Government sadly failed to list despite English Heritage’s recommendation; Birmingham central library, which, as I am sure the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) is aware, is the subject of a long-running saga; and Preston bus station, the subject of an equally long-running soap opera. The position of all three has been highly controversial. None of them is officially listed, which greatly concerns the amenity societies. If they are not listed, how can they be catered for?

The most recent edition of The Architects’ Journal describes brutalism as “fashionably unfashionable”, which is, perhaps, how many of us regard what we consider to be concrete eyesores in our constituencies. It is a great concern that buildings that might not immediately be aesthetically pleasing to us now but that might at some point in the future be deemed to have great historical and heritage value will not get the protection they deserve under this framework. Although I welcome the ambition of shrinking the framework document from 1,000 pages to 100 pages, brevity should be not just the soul of wit, but the soul of clarity. We must ensure that certain current statutory protections remain in place, and I seek reassurance on that. Given the degree of local autonomy that is proposed, there is great concern that such buildings will not be protected.

That reassurance can be given in a number of ways. The Minister could tweak the framework or add warm words, or reconsider the role he envisages for statutory bodies such as English Heritage and existing amenity societies that cover the 20th century, the Victorian and Georgian eras and periods further back in history. He might also reconsider the role he envisages the Department for Culture, Media and Sport playing in respect of neighbourhood plans.

How can we ensure that when our local village considers its neighbourhood plan and makes decisions about a building that some might call a concrete monstrosity but others might call a beautiful example of a postmodernist bungalow, it takes into account not only its own aesthetic impressions, but the heritage value of what it has in its community? What steps can we take to ensure that the legitimate concerns of the amenity societies are respected? As we are engaged in a consultation process, I do not expect an answer now, but I hope that some reassurance on this point might be forthcoming in the very near future.

16:36

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

I broadly support the intentions of this new framework. For far too long, the planning process has been riddled with uncertainty and ambiguity, leading to widespread misunderstanding and frustration. In particular, I welcome the simplification of the guidance from a bewildering 1,000-plus pages to a manageable 52 pages. I also welcome the removal of top-down pressure by the abolition of the unpopular regional spatial strategies. That has resulted in a reduction of 20% on the previous Government’s insistence that 12,400 houses should be built in south Wiltshire, where my constituency lies.

I also welcome the framework’s safeguards for the green belt, areas of outstanding national beauty and sites of special scientific interest, as well as the acknowledgement of the need to protect wildlife, biodiversity and our cultural heritage. However, I have considerable concern about how the principle of localism will work in reality. Frankly, the devil is in the detail, and the precise mechanisms for collating, calibrating and putting together local views to create a local core strategy need to be clarified.

In Salisbury, there was a decision on Hampton Park II four weeks ago. The Secretary of State overturned the decision by a local planning inspector, thereby approving the building of 525 homes, which has fundamentally undermined confidence in the planning process. That may be due in part to the previous Government’s determination to abolish the district council in Salisbury by amalgamating other district councils to form a Wiltshire unitary authority. The price of this change has been the perception of a considerable distancing in decision making, and that is particularly keenly felt in planning.

I wish to pay tribute to Councillors Moss and McLennan, who have done so much to champion the concerns of the Laverstock and Ford parish. Councillor McLennan expressed his views to me. He said that

“from a local perspective, the core strategy was a poisoned chalice. The forward-planners of Salisbury district, who morphed and increased under Wiltshire council to become ‘spatial planners’ had our strategic gap in the frame…However, we were negotiating until the remote spatial folk from Trowbridge overruled the locals.”

He recognises that other parishes will be able to determine the nature of the housing that should be built, but in this transitional period the consequences of unclear guidance have been devastating.

Specific concerns about the need to include a strategic gap—a piece of land that acts as a barrier between new planned development and the separate parish—have not been recognised. In fact, Ron Champion, chairman of Laverstock and Ford parish council has told me that

“the views of this parish have been wholly ignored in regards to the numbers appropriate for the development known as Hampton Park II and Wiltshire council got itself into a position of opposing a development of 500 homes on the site in front of one inspector—whilst supporting the 500 homes in front of another.”

The inadequacy of the consultation process on the development of the core strategy to replace the RSS has left a bitter taste. In essence, there is much confusion over the definition of the word “local”. When parishes are motivated to make, and indeed do make, a constructive, considered and meaningful contribution to a core strategy only to find that three weeks before it is formally adopted the Secretary of State overturns an individual planning decision by a local inspector on the basis that the core strategy is still awaited and so only limited weight to its provisions can be given, that means my local constituents’ views have, in effect, been set aside. That is how they see it.

My constituents are angry. They believe that the Secretary of State could have delayed this decision by a few weeks to await the protection that the core strategy could have provided, because it is in the detail of those provisions that good individual planning applications and decisions are enabled. My local parishioners were not saying, “No housing here.” They made a serious attempt to define the design qualities required to fit in with the local community’s wishes, but they now have a scheme, approved by a Minister, that is sub-optimally designed and does not fit with what is in the core strategy.

I ask the ministerial team to review the guidance and procedures adopted by the Department in handling appeals, so that when core strategies are not quite adopted some serious attempt is made to acknowledge what is in them and they can have a bearing on decisions made. I do not want any more of my constituents to say to me, “What does ‘localism’ mean? We did what was expected. The core strategy gave guidelines that contradict the logic of the Secretary of State’s decision and, had he known about it, it would have had some meaning.” The new framework must not simply be a codification of sensible rules for the future; it must also deal with the practical contradictions and realities of the present, and with the pipeline of unadopted core strategies that appear to give opportunistic home builders a smooth ride to build sub-optimal developments.

16:42

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

I begin by stating that before I came to this place last May I was a chartered surveyor for 27 years, during which time I saw the planning process get slower and more bureaucratic, with an increasing complexity of planning regulations. There is a need for a faster and more flexible process that brings the plethora of guidance notes down to a manageable size. The publication of the draft NPPF is very much a move in the right direction, although some amendments and rewording may well be necessary.

Many have argued that by introducing the principle in favour of sustainable development the Government are undermining the whole planning process. That is not the case, as the presumption in favour of development was first enshrined in the Town and Country Planning Act 1947. What the draft NPPF seeks to do is reiterate and reinforce that, and it introduces the 21st- century principle of sustainability.

There has been much debate as to whether sustainability should be defined and embedded in the Localism Bill, whether a fuller definition than the Brundtland one should be provided and whether the 2005 definition should be used. My own view, which is supported by the Local Government Association, is that a more detailed definition should be left to local planning authorities; it should be for them to decide on the definition that best suits them, taking into account local circumstances and concerns.

That may include consideration of whether adequate infrastructure can be provided to underpin a particular development so as to ensure that the development is properly sustainable.

I was going to say a bit about the housing crisis, but it has been said. I will say, however, that planning is not the principal cause of the housing crisis, but a streamlined and less bureaucratic process has a vital role to play in overcoming it.

Much concern has been expressed that the NPPF is a developers’ charter and that it will open up the countryside for development. I do not believe that that is the case, as the framework preserves the green belt and areas of outstanding natural beauty and introduces a new designation of local green spaces as an additional tier of protection for valuable open space that local planning authorities can incorporate in their local plans. Moreover, the natural environment White Paper has an important role to play in delivering wider protection for the environment.

I am also conscious of the future of our town centres and the need to reinvigorate them. The “town centre first” policy that has been pursued since 1996 has an important role to play in achieving that, and although it is referred to in the framework, I ask the Minister of State to consider ways in which this part of the framework might be strengthened.

The Minister is to be commended for providing a strong focus on design. Towns and villages across Britain reflect a wide variety of local designs and architecture built up over many centuries, and that very much defines Britain and the built environment that we all cherish. We have lost that in recent decades. The sense of place has been replaced by a sense of “sameness”, with the same developments by the same developers across the country, with little regard to local traditions, styles and identities. We need to move away from that, and the incorporation of design in the framework provides the opportunity to do so.

Over the years, while I was practising, I came across many schemes that had obtained planning permission that would never be built because they were financially non-viable. I therefore welcome the conclusions on viability in the framework. However, it is important that if a scheme is non-viable in the first instance, the planners and developers consider redesigning or reshaping the scheme rather than straight away permitting a development that might be described as inadequate.

The Minister is introducing radical proposals for how planning works in this country and it is my view that they are for the better. What he is proposing is in fact a double devolution, not only empowering local authorities but also local neighbourhoods. It is important that transitional arrangements are put in place to ensure a smooth move to the new system.

The framework puts local people in the driving seat. Councils and local communities will be able to control what happens in their local areas as long as they have an up-to-date local plan in place. The framework will ensure that heritage is protected and local authorities will be able to decide where development should take place and which areas should be protected.

The Government are right to approach this matter with a sense of urgency, to have brought forward the framework in this form and to have this debate so that they can take full account of hon. Members’ opinions as well as the views of the many bodies that have made representations. There might well be a need for some revision, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister’s door is open and that he will listen to well-reasoned proposals. In places, the wording of the framework might need to be tightened and there might be a need to expand the document to, say, 80 or 90 pages, but this streamlined process is vital to ensure that the planning process works properly and efficiently and takes full account of local people’s concerns.

Many people have expressed the view that the framework is too development and growth-oriented. There is a need for growth, but it is a need for “good” growth that also ensures that environmental and social interests are not prejudiced. I believe the framework gives us the basis for achieving that.

16:48

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

I am delighted to have the chance to speak in this debate and, in particular, to congratulate those on the Front Bench on their localism agenda, which is so important to this country and not least to Northamptonshire, the county I am proud to represent. Under the Labour Government, Northamptonshire’s regional spatial strategy forced development on to greenfield sites, with the unwelcome intrusion of large developments on the edges of villages, which members of the local community have been unable to resist. I certainly recognise the need for more housing, but the worst part of that approach has been the inability to keep Northamptonshire’s infrastructure in line with the growing population.

According to the Office for National Statistics, Northamptonshire was the second-fastest-growing county between 2004 and 2009. It was very much an area for growth, but the policing and health care settlements and the local government grant have lagged far behind the demographic growth. When I was out canvassing for the general election in 2010 people told me, for example, that they were eight months pregnant and still did not have a proper midwife because there simply were not enough midwives. Northampton general hospital is often on red alert because its services are so pressed. We really do have a backlog of infrastructure needs, so I thoroughly welcome, first, the desire to achieve more localism and, secondly, the desire for sustainable development, which means bringing alongside the infrastructure that is necessary.

I should like to make a few points about the concerns for my constituency specifically as a result of the mad rush for growth of the past 10 years. Northamptonshire is suffering from a grey area, because the regional spatial strategy has not yet gone and we do not have a coherent local development plan. My constituency has 92 parishes, and the prospect of trying to write 92 neighbourhood development plans within six months is a very tall order. We will need a period during which there can be no prospect of some developer free-for-all. It is no exaggeration to say that almost every green site in South Northamptonshire has some developer option on it. That is of real concern to my constituents.

The last thing we want is any pause in the Government introducing legislation that will give clarity to my constituents. Equally, however, we do not want something else that is happening now, I am afraid, where planners, particularly at appeal, are taking into account the NPPF while it is still under consultation. I very much regret that. In a recent appeal regarding a wind farm development, the inspector took into account these measures, which are still under consultation, in his considerations. We do not have a result yet, but I very much hope that a misinterpretation of the term “sustainable development” does not lead to a wind farm that should have been subject to other considerations.

Specifically on wind farms, I congratulate our Front-Bench team on inserting a material planning consideration regarding how windy an area is. It has always seemed to me complete madness that that did not matter, but it is very important in Northamptonshire because we are not a terribly windy county. You might think that we produce plenty of wind here in the Chamber, Mr Deputy Speaker, between the seven of us, but we are not a very good site for wind farms, so I am very glad to see that measure. Nevertheless, we really need to reinforce local communities’ ability to take the right decisions for their area.

There are three issues on which I urge the Government to focus for the sake of Northamptonshire and, indeed, the whole country. First, I would like them to focus on the definition of sustainable development to ensure that planners have to take into account not only current needs but any backlog of infrastructure requirements that have resulted from disastrous Labour policies. Secondly, we need to ensure that we have clarity between now and when our local development plans are in place and signed off. Thirdly, we need to defend our greenfield sites against development when plenty of brownfield sites remain. I urge the Front-Bench team to bear those issues closely in mind.

Let me finish by making two suggestions—I am not sure whether they have been discussed during the debate. A big problem that I have come across in South Northamptonshire is the time developers have for planning permission, and I wonder whether we could constrain that. First, there are an awful lot of permission sites that developers are sitting on, presumably waiting for the market to turn round. Secondly, there is the issue of developers building a few footings and then leaving a development for ages and ages. If we could constrain those practices, that would help considerably in building the homes that we certainly need.

16:54

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

I draw everyone’s attention to my interests as listed in the register.

I am committed to protecting the environment in my constituency. I am committed to ensuring that we have more houses. I think that those two things are quite compatible—they certainly are if we have strong local plans underpinned by proper consultation and the involvement of local people. The Minister was absolutely right when he opened his remarks with the observation that people are worried about having planning done to them rather than being involved in planning. I have noticed that most of the criticisms of the national planning policy framework are along the lines of, “This is going to be terrible for us. Something is going to happen.” We have to disabuse people of that fear. I have been doing that to some extent in the constituency already, and this debate has been a useful opportunity to continue that process.

I have listened to Stroud district council, which is very pleased to find that it will have fewer national guidance documents and more simplified ways of proceeding. It welcomes the idea of having a local plan that will be effectively informed by local opinion. I have also talked to the Gloucestershire Campaign to Protect Rural England. CPRE has been involved nationally, but locally it recognises the importance of a sovereign local plan and wants one in place. We must make sure that it is. The CPRE is also very keen on the idea of the duty to co-operate, as specified in the Localism Bill. That is a really important step, and one that we need to consider.

As far as planning principles go, it is critical to realise that a proper understanding of sustainability is often found at the local level. That is certainly the case in my constituency. That is because factors such as flooding must be included, and local people know about such things. They will be able to put into a local plan a realistic appraisal of the impact of such factors in terms of sustainability. It is right that we make sure that the local plan includes a proper definition of sustainability, and that that has some force and power.

I turn now to the National Trust. It is national; it is not a local structure in the sense of having accountability. Having read the National Trust Act 1971, I cannot find evidence of any accountability at all. However, I agree with some of the points that the trust made to the Environmental Audit Committee, such as those about the definition of sustainability. I tested the Minister on those issues and on issues of local planning, and I am satisfied that the Government have properly thought about the need to link the national planning policy framework with local plans.

There are five things that we really must get right. The first is the transition. There is a lot of concern about the situation that we now find ourselves in, where the NPPF is starting to be referred to as material evidence, and about what might transpire in a planning situation, so we need more clarity about the transition, and also more speed. The second area is the power of local plans. We must be sure that they are the things that matter, and we need to make more noise about that. Certainly we need to talk about the role of the inspectors. In Stroud, the inspectors overturned a decision of the district council, allowing a building development to take place—Foxes Field—which has turned out to be the source of huge trouble. If people had listened more carefully to the local opinion, that would have been avoided.

The third area is the capacity of local planners. We have great local planners in Stroud district council, but we need to make sure that all our councils are properly equipped with the right capacity to make sure that they have a local plan in place, and that that local plan is informed by evidence and reflects local opinion. The fourth area I would like to talk about, which I referred to earlier, is co-operation between councils. Stroud district council is up against Gloucester, and of course there are issues about where developments take place, so councils need to learn to co-operate. The Government should put more emphasis on that and they should do something if there is no co-operation.

Finally, we need to protect areas of outstanding natural beauty—Harold Wilson’s one great achievement—national parks and so on. I am committed to protecting my area, as we have some fantastic places along the Slad valley, and so far we have fought successfully to stop a development on Wades farm. We intend to fight to stop a development on Sellars farm near Hardwicke. We are fighting, first, to protect the AONB and, secondly, to protect the integrity of a village. That is the sort of thing that local people want to do, and they will be able to do it more easily if we have strong and robust local plans.

17:00

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

In the spirit of the debate, may I refer hon. Members to the register and declare my membership of the Campaign to Protect Rural England, the Gloucestershire wildlife trust, Friends of Leckhampton Hill and Charlton Kings Common, and the Leckhampton Green Land Action Group? May I pay tribute, too, to the Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), who has responded constructively and openly to this debate, and to the wider debate? He has certainly spent a lot of time with me and with other Back Benchers who have expressed concern about the national planning policy framework, which is very much appreciated.

I share the emerging consensus across the House that the general principles of the framework may be good, and that the idea of simplification is welcome—certainly to anyone who has tried to trawl through volumes of planning guidance. There are, however, serious concerns about the way in which the first draft has come out. I agree, in particular, with many of the comments about the six-year supply rule and the large loophole regarding the ability of developers and others to challenge not just local plans but individual policies and evidence on the basis that they are out of date, absent, silent or indeterminate. Points have been well made on those, and I will not repeat them.

This should have been a trouble-free area of coalition policy. The precedents were very good, and I was shocked at how good the Conservative policy on planning was in “Open Source Planning” when it was published. It was very, very impressive; we were rather startled and felt the need to catch up. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) has obviously been involved in developing even more robust policies. There was an emphatic statement in “Open Source Planning” which I thought was very good:

“Our emphasis on local control will allow local planning authorities to determine exactly how much development they want, of what kind and where.”

It balanced that with incentives, so there was not a temptation to say no to everything, but that emphatic statement was rather good, and if it can be repeated in the framework, that will be helpful.

Some Liberal Democrat policies on the natural environment, including the one that I helped to co-author on natural heritage, which was adopted by the party, made some complementary statements on the protection of the natural environment. We said:

“Too often we have parcelled off a small number of sites or areas for special protection by experts and left the rest to the mercy of market forces where different values often prevail and valuable natural resources are lost.”

That document originated the policy of local green spaces, which is in the framework, and which I very much welcome. It is designed to help to protect green spaces, not for their biodiversity or outstanding beauty, but simply because they are important to local people and have been proven to be so.

Those themes have been reinforced in government, in the Localism Bill, in the natural environment White Paper, with its very strong emphasis on the valuing of natural capital, and, indeed, in the statement last November by the Prime Minister, who said that

“we will start measuring our progress as a country not just by how our economy is growing, but by how our lives are improving, not just by our standard of living, but by our quality of life.”

That is important.

There are tensions in this debate, and it is important to consider the need for housing, including the very real need for affordable housing, and the need to tackle the affordability crisis, but it is a mistake to think that growth will be a panacea for those problems, for a number of reasons. First, as a country we need to learn to live within our environmental limits. Green space is a finite resource, and certainly on a crowded island with limited suitable areas for recreation and enjoyment, as well as for building, we cannot simply build and build and grow and grow. That is fundamentally unsustainable in the end.

Secondly, there are about 1 million more homes in this country than there are households, according to answers given to me by the Minister’s own Department. The problem, of course, is that they are not in the right places for jobs and work and where people want to live. It is local patterns of supply and demand that are the really big factors. In some areas, such as my constituency and others that have been mentioned, the demand is simply insatiable. Cheltenham has grown by 60% over recent decades, but we still have relatively high house prices and a housing waiting list. We can build on enormous amounts of countryside and those things will still apply because we will still have—I hope—really good jobs, good schools and a good built and natural environment. It is those kinds of things that drive this.

It comes as a bit of a shock, therefore, to find ourselves accused of producing a developer’s charter. The reason for that, I think, is in the wording of this document and the imbalance in it. There are very definite statements that

“local planning authorities should plan positively for new development”

and that planning

“must operate to encourage growth”,

The statements on the environment, however, are much more measured and often qualified. Even the one that states:

“Plans should allocate land with the least environmental or amenity value”

is immediately qualified:

“where practical, having regard to other policies in the Framework including the presumption in favour of sustainable development. Plans should be prepared on the basis that objectively assessed development needs should be met”.

Even where we are trying to use language that is more environmentally friendly and values social and environmental factors, it is heavily qualified. That needs to be rebalanced, because this language matters. It is listened to by local planners and the officers who drive local policies.

17:06

[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

May I begin by saying that I was delighted to have the opportunity on Tuesday to hold a debate in Westminster Hall and thank everyone who contributed to it? I do not intend to repeat the many points I raised, but I remind those who want to read the report of the debate of any interest I declared in my various comments about the green belt. The green belt is a passion for me because of the situation in my constituency, which has no greenfield land, only green belt and brownfield sites.

I agree with so much of what has been said by all hon. Friends on the coalition Benches, especially the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), that I think we are in danger of breaking out into a bit of a love-in. I thought he was about to escape, but it seems he feels compelled to stay. I want to thank the Secretary of State and his Ministers for the various reassurances they have given and public pronouncements they have made, particularly about the green belt, which I wish had been more widely publicised. Of course, it has never been said of the Secretary of State that he is not one for coming forward, as he has come forward on many occasions and spoken in his normal, robust manner. Unfortunately, I do not think that enough people heard him when he gave the reassurance that the framework contains not only a continuation of the existing policy to protect our green belt, but a very good argument that the coalition Government are determined to ensure that it is even better protected. I thank him for that.

I would like to raise two points. The first—I am being completely parochial about my constituency—relates to open-cast mining. We touched on this very briefly in the debate in Westminster Hall. I know that the framework refers to mineral extraction and really hope that the Government will listen to Members with constituencies in which there is a threat of open-cast mining. In my constituency, open-cast mining would be on green-belt land between Cossall and Trowell. It is very precious and beautiful land. It is historic and has connections to D.H. Lawrence. I submit that it is a complete contradiction to say that we could ever have open-cast mining on green-belt land. The two simply do not go together. If the Government cannot go as far as to agree with me on that, I urge them to look at the very good idea, put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen), for a buffer zone between residential property and any open-cast mining.

I was slightly cynical about the framework when I first examined it, but over time I have found within it many things not only that should satisfy everybody’s concerns, but that we should welcome and trumpet. I am particularly impressed by the neighbourhood plan, and this is where I refer to the Liberal Democrats, because unfortunately Broxtowe’s small group of remaining Liberal Democrat councillors have, in their wisdom, chosen to remain in coalition with Labour, and they control Broxtowe borough council. As part of their policy, they have accepted the plan for some 6,000 new houses in my constituency, but there is enough room for only 2,000 on the brownfield site, and the rest will have to be built on the green belt.

I am opposed to that decision, and I believe that the majority of people in my constituency are, too, but the Liberal Democrat who represents the village of Trowell makes a very good point when he says, “I’m being realistic, and, when we look at previous decisions in Broxtowe and a particular stretch of land, we will have difficulty persuading anybody that there should not be a large number of houses built on this particular stretch of green belt known as Field farm.”

That individual makes those representations to me in private and in public, and to be completely blunt he may well have a very good point, but where I criticise him and other members of the ruling group on my local council is over their complete disregard for the ethos that runs through the framework, which is about working with communities—where communities decide things based on neighbourhood plans. That is a wonderful idea, and Rushcliffe borough council, which happens to be Conservative-controlled, is going out and holding workshops.

[Martin Horwood]

At the risk of continuing the love-in, may I say that I have some sympathy, because three Gloucestershire councils have just published a joint core strategy, which will be completely unsupported by local people, for 40,000 new houses in Gloucestershire—though I hate to say that most of the councils involved are Conservative-led.

[Anna Soubry]

I am very grateful, believe it or not, for that intervention, because the hon. Gentleman makes a serious point, and I feel a lot of sympathy for councillors who are advised by their officers—understandably—but sometimes almost put in fear. They feel that they have to take a particular route, but they forget that they are the democratically elected representatives of their communities. That may be a criticism of ourselves on these Benches—that we have not explained the great provisions in the Localism Bill, which will empower our neighbourhoods to come together and to decide on their own plans.

I am, however, becoming confident that the Liberal Democrats in Broxtowe will hear that message loud and clear, especially when the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell) responds to the debate. They will realise that the Bill gives them the power to work with those people, coming together to build sustainable communities that are not just the sort of awful housing development that we have seen in so many parts of the country, which were built using the previous Government’s atrocious Prescott regulations with no regard at all for services and no proper consideration of infrastructure, but in fact sustainable developments—not just providing good homes for people, but improving their services, improving infrastructure and, indeed, embracing the environment. Such developments are not about simply concreting over land.

As ever, the clock is against me, but that is probably good for Opposition Members, as I was about to turn my attention to the previous Government’s disgraceful policy. I find it quite astonishing that Opposition Front Benchers, given their dreadful policies that would have concreted over thousands of acres of our green belt, can criticise Government Members and, notably, Front Benchers, so I commend this framework and look forward to the transition powers and all that they will bring.

17:15

[James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)]

I think it was Lord Palmerston who is supposed to have said that only three people had ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein question: Prince Albert, who was dead; a German professor, who had gone mad; and Palmerston himself, who had long since forgotten it. The same might be said for what passes for the current planning framework. At well over 1,000 pages, it is far too long and, divided between more than 20 planning policy statements that do not always seem to be consistent with each other, it is much too complicated. The complexity and bureaucracy of the planning system has created what I would call a tyranny of experts, where ordinary people are effectively excluded from the process and democratic scrutiny is virtually impossible. If we are to achieve sustainable development that benefits both the economy and the local environment, we need to make sure, as other hon. Members have said, that the right development is built in the right place. That will happen only if development policy is decided at a local level.

The regional strategies, with their top-down targets, were bureaucratic and, frankly, undemocratic. Regional housing targets failed to build the homes that were needed where they were needed. In Dudley, part of which I represent, the local authority projected that an additional 14,000 homes would be needed, but the regional target dictated that 16,000 should be built to satisfy demand in other parts of the region. Residents were understandably opposed to building far more homes than it seemed would be required to cope with population growth and changing household patterns. This has made communities feel isolated from the process and view development in general with suspicion. At the same time, the areas that needed the additional homes to satisfy growing demand, and in some cases housing shortages, would not get the new homes that their communities needed. It is right that there will be a duty for local authorities to work together on planning matters where there is a shared interest. I know from my own constituency how well Dudley and Sandwell councils work together, despite differences in political control, in sharing facilities and services with each other and with other neighbouring authorities.

We need to re-engage our local communities with the planning process so that they can properly shape local development plans, and we need local planning policy to be set by councils, not by regional quangos. Making sure that neighbourhood planning is more than the formality that local consultation has sometimes seemed to be within the planning system is vital if we are to ensure that development reflects communities’ concerns and priorities. Local communities need to have a proper voice in deciding where development should take place and which areas should be protected in local plans, but once that is done there must be a meaningful presumption in favour of sustainable development, which is at the heart of the national planning policy framework.

There has been a lot of misinformation, and not all of it coming from shadow Ministers. Some sections of the press give the impression that the presumption would mean that developers could build what they want, where they want, when they want, and how they want. That must not be the case. Presumption of sustainable development gives more power to local communities rather than taking it away. Planning authorities, as other hon. Members have pointed out, will still refuse developments that go against their local plan. Developments that cause significant harm will not be approved. However, putting those local plans into action will be simpler and faster. Housing and regeneration projects that are proposed in local plans should be approved quickly, because we urgently need sustainable development and regeneration to lead the economy forward, especially in areas such as the black country, which I represent.

A number of world-class construction companies are based in the black country, making the sector one of the largest employers in the area. Many of my constituents rely on a strong building industry for their jobs. A quick glance at the list of companies helping to build the Olympic facilities, for example, shows that black country construction companies are competing with the best in the country. That has provided a big boost for many companies and has safeguarded countless jobs. We must look at what we can do to remove the barriers that are stopping such firms building the new homes that we need and regenerating our town centres. When we can see for ourselves that the number of homes being built, even before the recession, was well below what was needed, and when we can hear for ourselves companies from all sections of the construction industry saying that the planning system is part of the problem, we need to take action to give the economy the boost it needs.

The four black country local authorities—Dudley, Sandwell, Walsall and Wolverhampton—have worked hard together to make development across the black country more business friendly. They believe that their joint strategy will pave the way for 60,000 new homes and up to 250,000 square metres of retail development across the black country.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

Earlier in his contribution, my hon. Friend mentioned neighbourhood planning. Does he agree that neighbourhood planning is extremely important for local communities? Is it not disappointing that local authorities such as Labour-controlled Nuneaton and Bedworth borough council have not been willing to engage local communities in the front-runners scheme? Does he acknowledge that that stifles the opportunity for local people to have their say in the planning system?

[James Morris]

My hon. Friend makes a good point and he is standing up for his constituents.

As I was saying, the four authorities in the black country believe that their joint strategy will create up to 95,000 jobs.

We need to ensure that we are doing our part and that the Government are doing their part to make it easier to create the sustainable development that our communities and local economies need, and I believe that the planning reforms in the Localism Bill and the NPPF go a long way towards achieving that.

17:21

[Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to speak in this important debate.

Elmbridge borough, which covers my constituency, is 57% green-belt land. I have therefore been inundated, like many colleagues, with letters and e-mails that seek reassurance and a degree of extra clarity about the draft national planning policy framework.

I endorse the Government’s principal aim of streamlining the bureaucracy of the planning process. Much has been made of the bureaucratic impact on developers and the economic cost, but it is worth bearing in mind how the planning system that we inherited from the previous Government also tied up local councils in that expensive bureaucratic process, at considerable cost to the taxpayer.

I also recognise the bigger picture. I am delighted that the Government scrapped the south-east plan, with its top-down targets for Elmbridge, which were bitterly resented locally. Rather than being forced to comply with diktats from a distant and faceless regional quango, Elmbridge borough council has replaced the regional plan with a local plan, after extended local consultation. Elected councillors will be accountable to residents for planning policy. That strengthens local democracy and I welcome it wholeheartedly.

I have a number of points and questions on the detail. My understanding is that once a local plan is in place it will govern the planning process for individual applications and will not subsequently be trumped by the framework. If so, that might be spelled out a bit more clearly in the draft framework. I would also be grateful if Ministers clarified whether the presumption in favour of sustainable development applies only where no local plan is in place. If so, it would be useful to be explicit on that point. If not, the relationship between the two needs further elaboration. I urge the Government to give primacy to local democracy.

I welcome the provisions in the draft framework that explicitly acknowledge that the green belt serves the purpose of preventing the merging of towns and wider urban sprawl. I note from the draft framework that there is a narrow list of exceptions to the general rule in paragraph 144 that it is inappropriate to build on green belt. Are those exceptions subject to the strictures in the local plan or can they override it, and with it the democratic credibility that the Government have so painstakingly built up by abolishing the regional plans?

Beyond the green belt, I welcome the exhortation in paragraph 122 for developers to work closely with communities affected by development. Many communities want a safeguard in case developers do not listen. If there is one criticism, it is that the draft framework is a little light when it comes to explaining how the democratic checks that we have built so carefully into local planning policy formulation will translate into the individual application process. I hope that the revised draft can be beefed up in that regard.

In my view, the developer’s right of appeal over the heads of our democratically elected councils should be curtailed and the balance shifted in favour of local communities and their representatives. In particular, I should like to see stronger safeguards—I am relaxed about whether they are in statute or guidance—enabling a major development to be blocked by the local council as a whole, a majority of local ward councillors or a local referendum, which would empower residents directly. That seems particularly germane to the practical operation of the principle of the community’s right to buy, which is set out in the draft framework.

The framework must not be viewed in isolation, and I welcome the new homes bonus. For too long, the last Government allowed untrammelled development in certain areas and creamed off the tax revenue from the sale of new properties, with communities seeing far too little of that money coming back to support local infrastructure. The new homes bonus will address that, which is crucial because development without the resources to provide the public services to accompany new residents creates considerable local resentment.

Even with the new homes bonus, however, it must be right that local authorities can take into account the costs that developments bring and the burdens on schools, councils, roads, GPs and other local services, in co-ordination with the providers of those services. If that is what is meant by sustainable development, it might go some way towards allaying fears if that could be spelled out directly. Likewise, there is relatively minimal guidance in the draft framework on the right to refuse development to mitigate flood risk, which is an important factor in my constituency. Perhaps that, too, might be spelled out a little more clearly.

I am confident that we can get the balance right in the framework. It is important, and the overarching aim behind it is sound. I am even more confident that Ministers will take due account of the points expressed by colleagues during the debate, and by the experts and other groups outside the House, so that we end up with a framework that both cuts bureaucracy and strengthens localism.

[Mark Pawsey]

rose—

[Bob Russell]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The wind-ups are due to begin at 5.30 pm, so we have time for a very short contribution from Mr Mark Pawsey.

17:26

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

I say at the outset that it is important not to underestimate the importance of this afternoon’s debate, because we are talking about the development of land, and once land is developed it remains developed. There is no going back. When development takes the form of a building, the average life of a structure is 60 years, so it is very important that we get these things right.

What are the reasons for changing the system? I believe there are three. The first is the lack of public participation in the planning process. Local communities often feel that they have no power in the face of the development industry and are unable to influence what happens. They have things done to them, not by them. The second is the housing failures that we have heard about, with last year seeing the lowest number of peacetime house building completions since 1923. The third is the failed system of 1,000-plus pages of guidance.

It is interesting that the simplifications have been welcomed not only by the shadow Secretary of State but by the opponents of the Government’s proposals. The Chair of the Communities and Local Government Committee, the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), drew attention to the evidence that we heard from Simon Jenkins of the National Trust, who said that

“everyone agrees the planning system needs localising and needs updating.”

I believe there are four positive reasons for accepting the framework with enthusiasm. The first is that it embraces localism and involves local people. It is only right that local people should have a leading role. The second is that it places the views of the broader community above those of narrow groups. For example, paragraph 167 states that authorities should

“give great weight to protecting landscape and scenic beauty in National Parks”.

Regrettably, there will always be those who oppose any kind of development, but I believe the Government have been courageous in dealing with that problem. Professor Sir Peter Hall, whose lectures I attended in the ’70s, has praised the Prime Minister for

“defying the extraordinary narrow lobby”

presented by those who support nimbyism.

The third reason for accepting the framework is that it will protect the environment. That view is supported by the Countryside Land and Business Association. The fourth is the economic argument that it will provide a system to get our economy moving.

I wish to mention the “town centre first” policy. I have great sympathy with those who argue in favour of retaining office use within that policy, because offices provide the consumers who support the retail and hospitality sectors, which we are defending in the framework.

In conclusion, the economy is stagnant, yet prime land for development lies untouched because in recent years our planning framework simply has not worked. Our reforms represent a fundamental step change in community power and provide a much better system for economic development. The Government should not be swayed off course by the lobby that has rallied against them in recent months.

17:30

[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

This debate has been wide ranging and informed, with many memorable contributions, and has been conducted in a constructive and cross-party way, focusing on what the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) called a matter of crucial concern to our communities and our country: the future of the planning system. Indeed, such was the nature of the 60 hours of debate that we had on the Localism Bill that the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), listened with an open mind to strong criticism of the Government’s fundamental changes to our planning system of 60 years standing. He listened to the concerns that we expressed and to a coalition of the concerned from the business community, through to the planners and those charged with safeguarding our countryside and heritage. A decent man, the philosopher king of localism—he agreed that big changes to the Government’s proposals were necessary.

Imagine, therefore, how the Minister must have felt, Mr Speaker, having on the Saturday offered constructive dialogue with the National Trust, the Campaign to Protect Rural England and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, when he woke up on the Monday to read a declaration of war in the Financial Times—a declaration announced by the formidable presence of the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government and the omnipresent Chancellor of the Exchequer. “This is a battle we must win,” they declared. “We will fight them on the hillside, in the dales and on the beaches.” The propaganda machine then went into full throttle. The National Trust, a charity of more than 4 million members and with more than 60,000 volunteers—the quintessence of the good society—was accused of running a left-wing smear campaign to justify its own existence, supported by what Ministers now believe to be the Pravda of the British press, The Daily Telegraph. We are talking about a charity that has more than 100 million visits to its properties every year—including, I understand, one only last year by the Bullingdon club, although I am not sure whether that was to admire our heritage or to smash it up.

On the criticisms of the planning system, the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) made the point in her characteristically honest way that, in her words, the system achieved much over the last 50 years. In the light of some of the contributions that have been made, it is important briefly to put the record right. The Government have said that the planning system is broken and that there are too many refusals. Wrong: the Government’s own figures show that 86% of applications were approved by district planning authorities last year. The Government have told us that the planning system does not deliver enough permissions to meet housing need. Wrong: in 2006 and 2007, before the financial crash, Labour’s planning system delivered more than 500,000 permissions for new homes, tens of thousands above the 60,000 now needed each quarter to meet our housing need. The Government have also said that the planning system is a huge barrier to growth. “It’s far too slow,” they say. Wrong: last year, 81% of developments for districts were dealt with within eight weeks, rising to 92% within 13 weeks.

In need of improvement? Absolutely, and it was common ground in the debate on the Localism Bill that the planning system was capable of improvement. A broken planning system? Absolutely not. A planning system that is responsible, as some in the Government have alleged, for near-zero growth and a collapse in house building? Utter nonsense.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) was right to say that it was this Government who were responsible for residential planning permissions falling to 25,000—the second lowest number of permissions granted in a quarter in the past five years—and causing chaos in the planning system. And it is this Government who are responsible for a mortgage market in which no one can get a mortgage. The hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) and my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) were both right to say that that was having a serious impact on development and developers because, although planning permission exists to build 300,000 homes, the mortgage finance—and the finance more generally—just is not available.

The Government have ripped up a 60-year-old system that delivered in the public interest, striking the balance between growth and development, on the one hand, and the protection of our natural environment and a real say for local people, on the other. Emerging from the ashes of the war, the great planning settlement of 1947 sought to reconcile growth and development with a genuine say for local people and the protection of our natural environment. Now, in the 21st century, in these desperate economic times, we need growth and development. My constituency of Erdington might be rich in talent, but it is one of the 12 poorest in Britain. I represent a constituency that badly wants to see growth and development. However, the reformed planning system must be built on those same fundamental principles, and it must work.

Today, in the light of this first-class debate, we want to say to the Government that fundamental changes are necessary. The Government must put in place a workable presumption in favour of genuine sustainable development that will give confidence that our countryside and environment will be protected. The hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole was right to ask why we should not continue to use the 2005 definition. The Government must restore Labour’s successful “brownfield first” policy. The hon. Member for Winchester (Mr Brine) was right when he said that the existing definition was clear and that it should continue to obtain in the future.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Jack Dromey]

Given the time available, I will not.

The “brownfield first” policy was working. Last year, 76% of new dwellings were built on brownfield sites, up from 55% in 1989. There are currently enough brownfield sites on which to build 1.2 million homes. The Government must put the heart back into our high streets by protecting, not weakening, the “town centre first” policy, and the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) was right to ask the Government to do precisely that. They must not weaken the requirement to provide affordable housing, which is fundamental to meeting a growing housing crisis and ensuring the future prosperity of our young people. They should accept Labour’s proposed transitional arrangements to ensure certainty for local people, communities and developers alike. The hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) was right to say that, during the transition, local communities should be protected from predatory bids.

As the excellent contribution from the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), made clear, the Government must recognise that their duty to co-operate, as it stands, is toothless and will not allow for the kind of effective strategic planning that England needs in order to deliver on our future needs in housing, economic development, waste management, transport, infrastructure and the mitigation of climate change. We must not have a planning system that is increasingly combative, rather than consensual, with applications being decided in the courts as the number of appeals goes through the roof. In the chaos that is unfolding in our planning system, more homes there will be: second homes in Marbella built by planning lawyers salivating at the prospect.

Finally, the Government need to move beyond polarising the debate by demonising their critics. Today we have heard voices from all sides of the House— [Interruption] —from all sides of the House saying “Ministers must think again”. We need to remember that whatever amendments the Government make, they are making the most fundamental changes to a national planning system that has been in place for 60 years.

I ask the Minister to respond to this. Does he agree that, once the changes are made to the draft national planning policy framework that have been demanded by Members on both sides of the House, there will be a second process of consultation? In particular, will he indicate now that the transitional period should, as we have argued, be extended? Will the Government ultimately have the courage of their convictions and hold a vote on the final national planning policy framework—in the House of Commons and in the House of Lords—so that we can have a system in which the public can put their trust for years to come?

17:41

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell)]

There was a great deal of consensus in the debate up to the point when the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) said that he was hearing voices. I welcome this opportunity to debate the Government’s proposals. The new national planning policy framework is an important document and we have had a positive and constructive debate on it, covering not just the NPPF but the broader context of the Localism Bill. Debate on this subject has been carried on outside the House as well as inside it not just today but for the last three or four months—and we are all the better for it. The Government are making time available for further discussions in the House of Lords on 27 October.

As of this morning, 13,700 responses have been received to the consultation, of which some 3,700 are substantive individual ones. The debates in the two Houses will be taken into consideration. Indeed, if any hon. Members felt that their contributions were cramped by today’s limitation on time, we will hold that door open for a few more days for them to submit written representations on the document. Quite a number of today’s speakers have already sent in representations, which are also welcome.

We have heard contributions from 35 Back Benchers and interventions from quite a number more. That shows how important this issue is as a fundamental development in the way we approach the creation and safeguarding of communities in this country. This planning system is the way we make communities work. We create places we are proud of and proud to live in; we lay the foundations for businesses to grow; and, as has been a constant theme today, we develop a system that not only protects but enhances our green spaces, our parks and our countryside for our enjoyment, and for generations to come.

[Bob Russell]

On the preservation and retention of green spaces, the Secretary of State made a personal visit, for which I am most grateful, to see the fields of west Mile End in Colchester, which I hope can be saved. My concern is where local authority A decides to dump a large part of its housing right on the border of local authority B, which is what Tendring district council is planning to do on Colchester borough council. Surely the local decision making must be made by the people who are most directly affected and not by the local authority that is doing the dumping.

[Andrew Stunell]

I shall certainly respond to my hon. Friend, because the same point has been raised by others, including the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), who asked how the duty to co-operate will work. I think that my hon. Friend is asking the same question. The duty requires—not allows, but requires—ongoing constructive engagement on all the strategic matters arising between councils when they prepare their local plans, and councils will be required to consider whether they enter into agreements on joint approaches and on the preparation of joint policies on cross-boundary issues. They will also have to satisfy the independent examiner of the local plan and to demonstrate compliance with the duty of co-operation when they do so. If they fail to satisfy the independent examiner, the plan will fail. That would be a powerful sanction to encourage council A to bear in mind the importance of taking into account its consultation and co-operation with council B. I hope that my hon. Friend finds that response helpful.

There is a pressing need for reform of our national planning policy. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington seemed to be caught betwixt and between. He accused us, on the one hand, of ripping it up, but, on the other, of arguing that we need a presumption of sustainable development. Perhaps the Labour Front Bench team needs to establish exactly what it believes is its principal criticism of what we are doing.

[Joan Walley]

The argument is not about sustainable development, but about its definition. We do not want a definition under which economic development simply trumps all the other aspects of sustainable well-being.

[Andrew Stunell]

I hope to cover that point more fully in a few minutes. The hon. Lady and I, surprisingly enough, are on the same page. It is not a question of whether to have sustainable development. In fact, the emphasis is on “sustainable” not “development”. I shall come to that in a moment.

The current system is unworkably complex and has been criticised soundly by hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber. There are more than 1,000 pages of national planning policy and at least 6,000 pages of guidance. I challenge any Member, even if they have 26 years of professional background, to say, in all honestly, that they have read all 7,000 pages—nobody has. It is a long-running accident. The complexity of the system not only slows down decision making and frustrates the sustainable growth of the country, but alienates and frustrates local people. It does not allow for the rapid creation of the new homes that we desperately need for young families who are already struggling to scrape together a deposit or stuck on an endless waiting list, and it hinders the creation of the new jobs that will breathe fresh life into local economies.

That is bad enough, but on top of that, as all hon. Members have experienced, the planning system too often reduces people, at a local level, to impotent rage and denies them any real engagement in shaping the future of their communities. That cannot be a good system. A streamlined system focusing on key priorities will be more accessible and transparent. In the future, anyone who wants to understand the principles informing how decisions are made will be able to do so. That does not suit many of the professionals, but it should suit our constituents and the House.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

I agree completely with my hon. Friend. In constituencies such as mine, where there is pressure for much more affordable housing, it is exactly the sort of thing that my constituents would want to participate in. Does he share my view that, for it to work, the viability of development proposals needs to be open to full scrutiny? Often developers say, “We can only do 10% affordable property, because otherwise the figures do not add up.” In reality, they could do more, but are never forced to reveal their hand and so sometimes get away with doing far too little.

[Andrew Stunell]

My right hon. Friend makes a very interesting point. I hope that he has encapsulated it in the representation that I know he has submitted to the consultation, and that if he has not, he will make a second submission.

The Government are keen to put matters right. The new planning architecture of the national planning policy framework and the local development framework—the core strategies that have been referred to so frequently today—and the neighbourhood and parish plans must be taken together and seen in context.

[Mark Pawsey]

The Minister refers to the importance of plans. Does he agree that the essential purpose of the NPPF is to put those plans in place, and that local authorities that fail should be urged do so by both Government and Opposition, so that there is a template against which development proposals can be measured?

[Andrew Stunell]

My hon. Friend is right. I shall deal with some of the specific points that have been raised in a moment, although several of them are quite detailed, and I shall not have time to respond to all 35 Members who have spoken. We will make a serious effort to write to those whom I do not manage to respond to today.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I wonder whether the Minister can answer one point that was raised by a number of Members. Do the Government intend to introduce transitional arrangements, so that local authorities such as mine that were not encouraged to draw up local plans under the old regional spatial strategy system will have time to do so?

[Andrew Stunell]

The hon. Gentleman is a page ahead of me, but I will get there very shortly.

Of all the thousands of comments that have been made about the NPPF so far, very few have challenged the importance of both the simplification and the localisation that we have set out. I would have said that none had done so, but, funnily enough, a former planning Minister, the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), said that he was one of those who considered this to be the best of all possible planning systems. His view was somewhat contradicted by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State’s quotation from Lord Rooker, which demonstrated that that simply was not so.

Quite properly, today’s debate has largely concerned the precise shape, the exact wording and the detailed nuances of what we have proposed in the NPPF and the Localism Bill. Let me now deal with some of the key points made by Members. I will begin by tackling what seem to me to be some of the principal issues. One is our use, or rather non-use, of the word “brownfield” . We have referred instead to land of the “least environmental” quality.

There is a clear reason for that. We think that land of the least environmental quality should be taken first, and we recognise that some brownfield land is of high quality. It may be the quarry that has been left for 40 years and is now the next best thing to a self-managed wildlife sanctuary, or it may be back gardens. There are a number of circumstances in which brownfield land may have become recreational. Indeed, there is an example in my constituency that is sufficiently contentious to be prayed in aid. Using brownfield land as a planning category and turning it into the first priority for development will prove to be a mistake in some instances. At the beginning of the debate, my right hon. Friend said in his emollient way that we were taking careful account of all the representations we have received, and we certainly are in that respect.

[Martin Horwood]

I entirely sympathise with my hon. Friend’s wish to move to a definition of environmental value, but, as I pointed out in my speech, even that reference in the NPPF is heavily qualified by reference, again, to development and growth. That rather undermines the point that is being made.

[Andrew Stunell]

Given that my hon. Friend’s submission to the consultation is longer than the NPPF itself, I am sure that it covers that point.

My right hon. Friend made it clear—not for the first time—that there will be transitional arrangements, but it would be presumptuous to set them out before our friends in the House of Lords have disposed of the Bill or it has returned to us. We therefore must approach this issue in a measured fashion, but we understand the points that have been made, even if the critics appear to be a little confused about whether the result of the proposals will be a slowing down or a speeding up of development. Certainly, uncertainty is unwelcome and needs to be dealt with.

[Jack Dromey]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andrew Stunell]

I am sorry, but I do not have enough time.

On the presumption in favour of sustainable development, the debate has focused on the term “development” rather than the term “sustainable”. Some good points were made, both in our debate and in the representations we received, about alternative ways of approaching this issue and, as my right hon. Friend said, we are bearing them all in mind. However, let me quote from a 1949 planning circular:

“In cases where no serious issue is involved, and where the authority can produce no sufficient reason for refusal, the presumption should be in favour of granting the application.”

Things have moved on since then, and we have a plan-led system, but the presumption in favour of sustainable development that we propose will strengthen that plan-led system, not undermine it.

I have already commented on the duty to co-operate. The right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich cannot be in the Chamber now, but he gave some statistics, and I want to put on the record that home ownership fell to its lowest rate since 1990 during the 13 years of the Labour Government, and that they managed to combine that reduction with a 440,000 fall in the number of social and affordable homes. Regardless of what the planning system delivered, the Labour Government certainly did not deliver.

Several Members emphasised the importance of bringing empty homes back into use, and the Government agree. We have set aside £100 million to fund a programme to achieve that, and we are also about to launch a consultation on other measures that can help. I welcome the broad support this will receive in the House.

The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) said the planning system must be consistent with the Government’s other aims. She referred to the natural resources White Paper and the work of the Department of Energy and Climate Change and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but we should also mention the work being done by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Treasury to generate growth. The planning system must reflect both the priorities of the Government and the priorities of local communities. This debate is about how we can get that balance right.

This debate has been a small but significant part of the important process of building a planning system of which we can be proud—a system that supports growth and change where that is needed to create jobs and homes, that creates health and prosperity for all communities, and that enhances and preserves our country’s unique natural and built environment. To respond to another point that was made in our debate, that includes 20th century buildings.

We must establish a planning system that leaves future generations admiring our foresight, not condemning our selfishness. I believe the framework we have produced can do exactly that, and I urge the House to support the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the matter of the National Planning Policy Framework.

[Mr Speaker]

We come now to the Adjournment debate. I appeal to hon. Members who, inexplicably, are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly so that the rest of us can hear from Mr Henry Smith.

Air Passenger Duty

Thursday 20th October 2011 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Angela Watkinson.)

18:00

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. May I say how extremely grateful I am to have the opportunity to hold this Adjournment debate?

In this place I might be known as the hon. Member for Crawley, but my constituency is perhaps better known for being the home of Gatwick airport, the world’s busiest one runway, two terminal airport. It is also home to a number of significant aviation industry companies, such as Virgin Atlantic Airways, TUI Travel and British Airways. My arguments for not increasing air passenger duty and for simplifying the system are not simply parochial; Great Britain’s historical success has been not only as a politically assured, innovative country, but as a trading nation, and we have a unique set of global links. In addition, approximately 30 million hard-working Britons save each and every year to fly off on well-deserved holidays.

Like the debate we have in the Gatwick area about the future of the airport and whether or not it should expand, the debate on the future of APD is about balancing economic growth and the needs of environmental protection—I care passionately about both. It is right that aviation should contribute to dealing with its environmental impact, but that needs to be put into perspective and weighed against its economic contribution. Aviation accounts for about 5.5% of UK total emissions. To put that in context, road transport emissions account for about 18% and energy production emissions account for about a third of the UK total. In addition, it should be noted that the aviation sector contributes some £53 billion to UK GDP and employs almost 1 million people, in addition to the further 1.5 million employed in our tourism industry, and that about half of this country’s population fly each year.

The history of APD goes back to the early 1990s, when a charge of £5 was introduced for flights to EU countries, with a £10 charge for flights to rest of the world destinations. Under Labour, over the past decade, that was significantly hiked up to a point where British aviation taxation has become by far the highest in Europe—indeed, it is eight and a half times the European average. It is worth noting that only four other European countries charge a form of APD, with a further five European countries—Denmark, Belgium, Norway, Malta and the Netherlands—having abandoned the charging of APD. The Dutch Government abandoned APD as a taxation because it brought in the equivalent of £266 million to their exchequer but cost an estimated equivalent of £950 million to the Dutch economy.

For our own Government’s part, I very much welcome the announcement that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made in the last Budget on the freezing of APD. I also very much welcome the taxation of business jet aviation for the first time ever, so long as the collection of that tax does not cost more than it brings in. I very much congratulate the Government on their consultation on the future of APD in order to get the widest possible view on that. That is all in stark contrast to the Labour party, which did not even mention the issue in its pre-election manifesto and does not seem to have a plan B, although we are quite used to Labour not having a plan A on the economy.

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

This is the second time I have come to listen to what the hon. Gentleman has to say and I had hoped that his speech would be somewhat non-partisan. I remind him and the Minister that the Conservative party said in its manifesto that it would move to a per-plane duty and would not keep the current banding system, which is seen to be wholly unfair. I hope that both the hon. Gentleman and the Minister will address what will be done to remove the unfair anomalies in the system.

[Henry Smith]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He is absolutely right that a per-plane duty was discussed and I understand that there were some legal problems with it. It is important that we as a country should finally get right the future of aviation taxation in the round, not only for the sake of hard-working families who want to enjoy a holiday now and again but, most importantly, for our economy.

Quite apart from what we think in this place about the future of APD, let me quote what a few others have said. Southern rail has added its concerns about a future increase in APD by saying:

“Any tax regime that has the potential to impact negatively on Gatwick Airport’s growth plans also has the potential to impact on Southern’s growth plans. We work closely with the airport and in recent months we have seen growth in airport passenger numbers and growth in its public transport market share. We would not want this momentum to be lost or hampered as this will impact on the medium term growth aspirations of our business”.

The airport has said:

“Gatwick is a family airport. Our passengers pay £400 million in APD every year, which goes straight into the Treasury’s coffers. It is difficult to understand why hardworking families, whose household bills are rising every month, should pay so much extra just to go on holiday. For many of them, it’s a luxury they save all year to afford.”

The Gatwick Diamond Business Association, which represents all the economy and not just the aviation sector in the sub-region, has said:

“The tax regime is having a negative impact on the UK’s ability to connect with emerging markets.”

In his speech in Manchester just a couple of weeks ago, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister pointed out how one of the keys to UK economic growth is the need to connect better with the growing markets in Asia and South America. The Gatwick Diamond Business Association went on to say:

“Increasing tourism from the Far East is important too and in total the hospitality sector is the fifth largest in the UK. This could grow by 10% over the next five years alone…provided they are given the ability to derive their fair share of the forecasted growth in global travel.”

Another local firm in the Gatwick diamond area, CGGVeritas, has taken about 1,500 flights to meet its global customers in the past year and estimates that it has paid up to £50,000 of its budget just on the APD portion of those air tickets.

Virgin Atlantic, headquartered in my constituency, takes the view that aviation has a critical role to play in UK tourism and the wider economic recovery through encouraging visitors to these shores ahead of the Olympic and Paralympic games, but this economic potential is being stifled by ever increasing levels of air passenger duty, which are already the highest in Europe.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate not once, but twice, not least because it gives me the opportunity to welcome the Economic Secretary to the Treasury to her new role—a well-deserved promotion. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that part of the problem with this issue, with which I am very sympathetic, is the fact that there is a gap between the Treasury and the Department for Transport in that the Treasury leads but the Department for Transport is required to produce plans for airports and aviation?

[Henry Smith]

I am grateful for that intervention. The holy grail of government is joined-up government, with all Departments and the Treasury working together. My right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General is doing a great job in trying to achieve that.

The World Economic Forum’s international tourism competitiveness report ranked the UK 134th out of 138 nations for air taxes, and we are beaten only in the amount we charge by the west African countries of Senegal, Ivory Coast, Mali and Chad. The chief executive of British Airways said:

“Aviation in the UK is the most undervalued and overtaxed industry in Britain. We want to play our full part in assisting Britain’s economic recovery, but we are held back by levels of tax on flying which are higher than anywhere else in the world”.

and added that the increases would cost BA an extra £100 million and put more pressure on ticket prices. At the recent launch of a new Air Asia X route from Kuala Lumpar to London Gatwick, its chief executive stated that it is commercially more difficult to operate from the UK than from France. He pointed out that 10% to 12% of its passengers flying from Paris to Kuala Lumpar are British nationals. That gives a sense of the shift that passengers are already starting to make.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

We in Northern Ireland have an interest in airport duty. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is an irony that we, as island nations that have to use air transport to make those important international connections, are taxed so highly in comparison with many other regions? There is also a challenge in trying to join up what happens not just with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and other Departments, but, particularly in terms of the growth of our economy, with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

[Henry Smith]

The hon. Lady makes a very good point. I have been pleased to see that in the context of Ireland, between the north and the south, there has been some improvement. Her point about our being island nations and relying on trade—and therefore in this day and age on aviation—is extremely well made.

The chief executive of the Association of British Travel Agents has said:

“It is vital that the Government understands the damaging impact that APD is having on the tourism industry in the UK. We already pay the highest levels of aviation tax in the world, and if the Government goes ahead with its double-inflationary increase and levies”—

as will happen on 1 January with the European emissions trading scheme tax—

“on top of this…we will see another eye-watering increase in the tax burden on the industry and on holidaymakers”.

The CBI has also rightly highlighted the fact that aviation is a critical pillar of the UK economy. Crawley-based companies such as TUI Travel, which is perhaps better known in the domestic market as First Choice and Thomson Holidays, are world leaders in developing biofuels to mitigate their environmental impact. Indeed, I am delighted that just a couple of weeks ago, they started regular biofuelled flights. Virgin Atlantic, another local company, has invested in the very latest new aircraft with the highest environmental standards.

In addition to those quotes from the industry, I should like to outline some figures that clearly demonstrate how the UK’s aviation tax burden is significantly in excess of those of our nearest competitors. As I have said, we already charge by far the highest in Europe. To fly from the UK to a European destination, we charge £12 in APD, whereas Germany charges £7 and France charges just a single euro to travel within the EU. To travel from the UK to New York, we charge £60 in APD, whereas the Germans charge £22 and the French charge just €5. To travel from the UK to Sydney, Australia, we charge an APD rate of £85 at the moment, whereas Germany charges £39 and France charges just €5. I do not think that anyone can accuse the Germans of not being astute in economic or environmental policy.

If APD were to increase from next April, there would be a huge percentage increase in just six years. For example, a family of four travelling on holiday to Florida in economy class in 2006 paid £80 in APD, whereas they would currently pay £240. If the increase goes ahead, they would pay £260 in 2012, representing an increase of 225%. A business party of four travelling to Shanghai in premium economy in 2006 were charged £160 APD; currently they are charged £600 and in 2012, if the increase goes ahead, the charge will be £656, representing a percentage increase of 310%. My final example is that of a retired couple travelling to Australia to visit family, again in economy class. In 2006, they would have been charged £40 in APD, currently they would be charged £170 and in 2012, if the increase goes ahead, they would be charged £186, representing the biggest percentage increase of 365%.

Simplifying APD would benefit not only citizens of the UK but Her Majesty’s subjects in the overseas territories. For example, the Government of the British Virgin Islands are rightly concerned that, as currently structured, APD is charged at a higher level to travel there than to fly to the west coast of the United States because the system is based on where the capital of a country is. It should not be forgotten that there are five British overseas territories in the Caribbean, as well as the many other Commonwealth countries around the world.

Before I conclude I wish to refute one suggestion mooted recently, which is that London and south-east originating flights should pay an enhanced amount of APD compared with the rest of Great Britain. I am very much opposed to that proposal because it would be unfair, unnecessary, economically misguided and environmentally dubious. It is unfair because, as I have said, we already pay one of the highest duties in the world. Millions of people living in the south-east and London should not have to pay extra just to fly from their local airports. It is unnecessary because the proposed growth of regional airports between now and 2050 is significant.

The proposal is economically misguided because while proponents of the policy say that it would rebalance the UK economy by moving key business routes to regional airports, it misunderstands the fundamental economics of long-haul business routes and ignores the fact that London’s airports serve the whole British economy. Indeed, London is a global-class city and, with the south-east, a world-class region, connecting with and competing against the likes of southern California, the east coast cities of Japan and China, the greater Frankfurt area and the Ile de France among others. Finally, the proposal is environmentally dubious because it perversely risks increased carbon emissions if south-east passengers drive hundreds of miles to regional airports for cheaper flights. More indirect flights—for example, London Heathrow to Manchester; Manchester to New York—would result in more movements and more take-offs and landings.

In conclusion, I believe that if APD is increased further and not simplified we risk damaging growth by increasing the tax burden on families and by giving our European competitors an unfair advantage in a global market. Additionally, it could create an unintended, negative environmental impact when we are already more than off-setting our aviation carbon emissions, and that is before we join the European trading scheme in the new year. Indeed, the TaxPayers Alliance, using the Department for Transport’s own figures, has highlighted the fact that, following the APD increase in 2007, aviation more than covers the cost of its environmental impact by at least £100 million. It also points to research by the Economic and Social Research Institute which found that doubling APD back in 2007 might have actually increased emissions because it reduces the relative price difference between near and far holidays.

In welcoming the Minister to her position and congratulating her, I appeal to her and the Treasury to think again, for the sake of our economy and our hard-working families, about increasing the APD burden further still.

18:18

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Henry Smith) on securing this debate and thank him for his response to the air passenger duty consultation earlier this year.

I will address the content of my hon. Friend’s speech and some of the specific points raised by hon. Members in a moment. First, let me say as the new Minister responsible for APD that not only did it fall on my desk with a thump in my first week, but the main challenge is to get the policy right for the long-term benefit of passengers, the industry, the economy and those who have responded to the consultation. I very much agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of the aviation sector. That goes without saying for all of us here in the debate. It employs substantial numbers of people—my hon. Friend’s constituents and others—directly or indirectly in the UK and is among the most productive sectors of the economy. I recognise that aviation is also an enabler and a catalyst for many businesses in the UK. The hon. Members for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) pointed out the vital need for joined-up government so that we can get taxation and regulation functioning sensibly together and contributing to growth in the economy.

Let us be very clear: we all want UK aviation, and sectors such as the travel industry that rely on aviation, to succeed. That was the starting point for the APD consultation launched at Budget. It is why my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening), spent a lot of time over the past year talking and listening to airports, airlines and various organisations, including those overseas, to understand their concerns, and I hope to do the same. I note that she will be spending more time on transport issues than she might have anticipated only a few days ago. It is because we understand the pressures facing consumers, as my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley has outlined very capably, that the Chancellor froze APD in the Budget in March.

Despite that, some people have called for a cut in APD. We must be frank about the situation in which we find ourselves, as my hon. Friend has said. When we came to office last year, we inherited a fiscal deficit of historic proportions, and action has been necessary to try to steady the ship, if you will forgive another transport pun, Mr Deputy Speaker. If we are to put the economy back on the path to sustainable growth, it is imperative that we tackle the deficit and that we take contributions from all parts of society. Unfortunately, I cannot promise the House that APD will be cut in the near future. I know that many hon. Members are concerned about other aspects of APD, including the changes that the previous Government made to the structure of APD in 2009. My hon. Friend has referred to some of those changes and their impact on our Commonwealth partners.

Many stakeholders have complained about the previous Government’s changes to the banding structure of APD. Some have pointed to the anomalies created by that structure, including my hon. Friend, and we have received a number of representations from those who feel that flights to Caribbean destinations are unfairly penalised. Following in my predecessor’s footsteps, I will hold a series of meetings with stakeholders on that subject.

[Mr Slaughter]

I congratulate the Minister on her appointment, although she has been handed a bit of a poisoned chalice.

My constituents who travel regularly to the Caribbean are concerned about the anomaly. Before the election, the hon. Member for Putney (Justine Greening), who was then shadow Economic Secretary, often posed in photographs with Ministers from the Caribbean and gave assurances about those anomalies. We understand that many other assurances will not be kept, including on the move to per-plane duty. Will the Minister at least give us the comfort that the Caribbean anomaly, if I can put it that way, will be addressed, whatever the Government propose?

[Miss Smith]

I can certainly give the hon. Gentleman an assurance that I shall carry on meeting representatives from the Caribbean and, indeed, from Australia and New Zealand very shortly, to discuss those concerns. I am afraid, however, for reasons I shall come on to, that it is rather difficult at this precise moment to give him further assurances, because the Government are due to respond to the consultation. I shall shortly deal with the detail of that, and with his points about per-plane duty.

The good news is that the consultation enabled Ministers to go into all those issues in more detail. The hon. Gentleman will know that in the Budget, the Chancellor announced that, for the first time, as my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley described, APD would be extended to passengers flying aboard business jets, which is another important feature that we have made clear. That addresses a clear unfairness in the system, and the consultation invited views on how that should be addressed.

I cannot promise the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) or anyone else that we will meet everyone’s wishes, but we will try to deliver an APD system that is fairer, simpler and more efficient, and the Chancellor will set out those details in due course. On the hon. Gentleman’s point about per-plane duty, to make the position clear, the UK’s international obligations in that area include air service agreements with more than 150 countries, including the 1944 Chicago convention. We will not introduce per-plane duty at present because of concerns about legality and feasibility. We will, however, work with international partners to continue building consensus.

[Gavin Shuker]

Will the Minister give way?

[Miss Smith]

Briefly, as I must conclude.

[Gavin Shuker]

I want to make just a small observation. Before the election, the Conservatives campaigned on moving to a per-plane duty. Given the complexity that the Minister mentioned, can she shed some light on why they said that they would do so?

[Miss Smith]

The glory of coming into government is that one realises that all sorts of things are worse than one imagined, and that is a case in point. As I have said, the legality and feasibility of that approach have been clarified quite extensively.

I will touch briefly on the question of the devolution of APD. As hon. Members will know, the Chancellor announced that from 1 November 2011 the rate of APD for direct, long-haul passengers departing from Northern Ireland will be cut to the short-haul rate, which I hope we all agree is good for constituents in Belfast East and elsewhere in Northern Ireland. That measure was in response to the unique challenge facing Northern Ireland and is designed to ensure that local airports remain competitive. However, in order to provide a permanent solution to the issue, the Government have launched a process for the devolution of APD to the Northern Ireland Assembly. We are working in close consultation with the Executive to take that forward. I would also like to offer my thanks, and those of my predecessor, to members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee for the diligent and helpful input they provided on the issue.

Let me also say a few words about APD and the regions, which hon. Members may be interested in. We received around 500 responses to the APD consultation, many of which related specifically to the question of regional APD rates. It is certainly fair to say that there is no consensus on the matter. Some regional airports have asked us to consider lower APD rates for the regions, but several airlines and hon. Members have asked us to consider the opposite. I note the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley in this regard. On that question, and on the broader reform of APD, the Government aim to publish a full response to the consultation later this autumn. We will of course take into account the views expressed in this debate.

There is one other issue that has been raised which I must address quickly: the environmental impact of aviation. We must recognise the scale of the challenge that confronts us. Since 1990, CO₂ emissions from UK aviation have more than doubled. In 2010 they accounted for around 6% of total UK CO₂ emissions. As other sectors decarbonise over the coming decades, aviation emissions are likely to make up an increasingly large proportion of total UK emissions. The Government’s approach to this problem is a pragmatic one. The international nature of aviation requires an international response, which is why we support the inclusion of aviation in the EU emissions trading system from 2012. At the same time, the Department for Transport, in true joined-up fashion, is considering the best way to tackle local environmental impacts as part of its aviation policy review.

I know that some have called for the abolition of APD once aviation enters the ETS, but I must point out, as others have done, that APD is fundamentally a revenue-raising duty and currently raises around £2.5 billion a year. The forecast revenues that will result from aviation joining the ETS are only around £0.1 billion a year, reflecting the fact that under the relevant EU directive most of the allowances for the system will be given to airlines for free. In looking forward, however, the Government will assess the revenue requirements from aviation taxes, including those from the ETS, in the round.

In conclusion, I hope that we can continue to have constructive debates in a way that helps deliver a tax system for air transport that is fair and sustainable for the long term and puts us on a positive footing in the world. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley again for bringing this matter to the attention of the House.

Question put and agreed to.

18:27

House adjourned.

Ministerial Correction

Thursday 20th October 2011 Ministerial Corrections

Thursday 20 October 2011

Home Department

Thursday 20th October 2011 Ministerial Corrections

Deportation: Offenders

[Priti Patel]

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 13 September 2011, Official Report, columns 1131-2W, on deportation: offenders, for how many foreign national offenders subject to Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangements is their location unknown.

[Official Report, 13 October 2011, Vol. 533, c. 501W.]

Letter of correction from Damian Green:

An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) on 13 October 2011. An incorrect figure was given in the first paragraph.

The full answer given was as follows:

[Damian Green]

There are four foreign national prisoners subject to Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangements whom the UK Border Agency is considering for deportation and whose location is unknown.

The UK Border Agency seeks to deport from the UK foreign national offenders who meet the following criteria:

A court recommendation.

For non-EEA nationals—a custodial sentence of 12 months or more either in one sentence or as an aggregate of two or three sentences over a period of five years, or a custodial sentence of any length for a drug offence (other than possession).

For EEA nationals—a custodial sentence of 12 months or more for an offence involving drugs, violent or sexual crimes or a custodial sentence of 24 months or more for other offences.

There may also be other foreign nationals subject to Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangements whose whereabouts is unknown, but are not subject to deportation consideration by the UK Border Agency.

The UK Border Agency's work on relocating individuals subject to deportation consideration is a high priority and they actively pursue individuals whose whereabouts are currently unknown.

The correct answer should have been:

[Damian Green]

There are two foreign national prisoners subject to Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangements whom the UK Border Agency is considering for deportation and whose location is unknown.

The UK Border Agency seeks to deport from the UK foreign national offenders who meet the following criteria:

A court recommendation.

For non-EEA nationals—a custodial sentence of 12 months or more either in one sentence or as an aggregate of two or three sentences over a period of five years, or a custodial sentence of any length for a drug offence (other than possession).

For EEA nationals—a custodial sentence of 12 months or more for an offence involving drugs, violent or sexual crimes or a custodial sentence of 24 months or more for other offences.

There may also be other foreign nationals subject to Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangements whose whereabouts is unknown, but are not subject to deportation consideration by the UK Border Agency.

The UK Border Agency's work on relocating individuals subject to deportation consideration is a high priority and they actively pursue individuals whose whereabouts are currently unknown.

Westminster Hall

Thursday 20th October 2011 Westminster Hall

Thursday 20 October 2011

[Mr Edward Leigh in the Chair]

Arms Export Controls

Thursday 20th October 2011 Westminster Hall

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Bill Wiggin.)

14:30

[Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)]

I am glad to open what I hope and expect to be the first of our annual debates on the reports of the Committees on Arms Export Controls. First, I thank the members of the four Committees for their contributions to our report, which sets a high standard of detail, incisiveness and relevance to current events, with particular reference to north Africa and the middle east. I also thank the staff of our Committees for their invaluable contribution in bringing together our report, and I thank Ministers and their officials for the substantial volume of detailed information that they have provided to the Committees in the response to our report and in answer to our subsequent extensive questions. One of my objectives, which is shared by the members of the Committees, is to achieve a higher level of transparency in our work in the key area of arms export controls, and I believe that we have made a good start in that direction.

I start with various aspects of the arms export controls system. Much of the debate will focus on the situation in north Africa and the middle east, which I will come on to, but it is important to cover this central area of the controls system, and I begin with the Export Control Organisation. I see the attraction for the Government and, most particularly, for the Treasury of changing the system of funding for the ECO. The Government are considering a proposal whereby that funding is taken out of public expenditure and therefore from the general body of taxpayers and is made the responsibility of the arms exporting industry. There are, however, possible risks and dangers in going down that route, because a crucial feature of the ECO is its clear independence. We have no doubt whatever about the integrity of all the civil servants who work in the ECO, but the Government must answer the question of whether a change to the basis of its funding might change public perception from seeing the ECO as an independent watchdog to seeing it instead as a poodle of the arms exporting companies. That would be detrimental to the perception of our UK arms export controls. I hope that the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), and his colleagues will consider that point carefully.

We made recommendations about three particular issues: brass-plate companies, the pre-licence registration of arms brokers and extraterritorial arms export controls. I must express my acute disappointment that, six months after we published our report and its recommendations, we have still not received a substantive response from the Government on any of those three important policy areas. I put it to the Minister that we expect a substantive response on those three areas shortly, and certainly in good time before the Committees resume taking oral evidence in a few weeks.

On what are called military end-use controls, a key issue in how to deal with dual-use goods, I very much welcome the Government acting on the Committees’ recommendation to produce specific proposals for strengthening such controls. I gather that the Government have now proposed a specific strengthening of article 4(2) of the relevant European Union regulation. I urge them to continue to press for the amendment of that article so that we can achieve greater strengthening of control over military end-use.

[Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)]

I am sorry to intervene so early in the right hon. Gentleman’s speech. On that point, does he agree that we could urge the Government to look at the work on the on-sale of arms to third countries, and that we could do a little more to ensure that the arms that we are selling to friendly or neutral countries do not end up in the wrong hands?

[Sir John Stanley]

I entirely agree with the hon. Lady’s point. That is one of the central areas on which we constantly keep watch. It is of prime importance that when an export licence is granted to a particular country for a particular piece of military equipment or particular goods, we as the exporting country know that that is where the items concerned will finish up. I am grateful to her for making that point.

I come now to sodium thiopental and torture end-use controls. An extremely creditable bit of investigative journalism revealed to us in the autumn of last year that a small company, in Acton I think, was exporting sodium thiopental to certain states in the United States that still use capital punishment and that the substance was among the chemicals used in the execution of prisoners. In other words, items coming out of this country were being used for capital punishment purposes in the United States. Our Committees were deeply concerned and the Government did react. We have debated with the Government whether they reacted quickly enough, but they did impose export controls on that particular item. We have now asked for those controls to be carried out more widely. I very much welcome that the Minister himself wrote to the EU High Representative Baroness Ashton and urged that the controls we brought in as the UK’s national controls over the export of sodium thiopental should be applied EU-wide by means of an amendment to the EU torture goods regulation. I hope that the Government will continue to press for that important amendment to be made, so that we have EU-wide controls and ensure that, EU-wide, we are not making a chemical contribution to capital punishment executions in the US.

On the proposed international arms trade treaty, I am glad to tell the House that, since our report was published, the Committees have had a useful informal meeting with our former ambassador to the conference on disarmament in Geneva, John Duncan. I would like to put on the record that Ambassador Duncan performed outstandingly in his contribution to the preparatory committee phase of that key negotiation, and made a signal contribution to the current situation. We now have before us at least three quarters of a draft treaty, in a text, in advance of the crucial negotiating phase, which will take place next year. The Government in their response said:

“The Government is committed to securing an effective, legally binding international Arms Trade Treaty. The UK continues to play a leading role in the UN process on the Arms Trade Treaty to this end.”

I urge the Government to ensure that the UK continues to be a major driving force in hopefully bringing the treaty to a conclusion in 2012.

Finally on the arms export controls system, I come to bribery and corruption, and I want to make two points. First, our Committees recommended that an anti-corruption provision should be included in the arms trade treaty, and I trust that the Minister will assure us that the British Government will do all they can to ensure that that happens. Secondly, the Committees were somewhat concerned that the Government were taking too narrow a view in dealing with bribery and corruption with regard to arms exports. In our subsequent series of questions to the Government, we asked:

“Will the Government confirm that if it becomes aware of corruption in arms deals it will, regardless of whether there is a risk of diversion or re-export under Criteria 7, take appropriate action under the provisions of the Bribery Act 2010?”

I am glad that in their latest response to us the Government have answered with an unequivocal “Yes”, and that is very welcome indeed.

I come now to the Government’s arms export policy in the light of the Arab spring, particularly in relation to arms that could be used for internal repression contrary to criterion 2 of the consolidated criteria and for provoking armed conflict contrary to criterion 3. I want to start by putting what I believe are the absolutely essential facts on the record since the Government announced their review of arms export licensing in the light of what has happened with the arrival of the Arab spring.

I am mystified why the Foreign Secretary and the Foreign Office keep saying that the first announcement of the review was made by the Foreign Secretary on 16 March in answer to a question from the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) at a meeting of the Foreign Affairs Committee. It is clear from the documentation that the first announcement was made by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), in his press release on 18 February. It was a highly significant press release, to which I shall return.

In the wake of the announcement of that review, there has been a revocation of existing UK licences for arms exports on a scale and over a geographical area totally unprecedented since the Committees were first formed more than 10 years ago. I cannot over-emphasise the extent to which that is the most enormous jump from anything that has previously happened. From the documents that we have received from the Government, I believe that a total of 158 extant arms export licences to countries in north Africa and the middle east have been revoked as a result of internal repression or the risk of it as a consequence of the Arab spring. Those arms export licences have been revoked in no fewer than eight countries: Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Egypt, Kuwait, Libya, Qatar, Syria and Tunisia. When I say that the scale of the revocations is unprecedented, I contrast them with, for example, the revocations made by the previous Labour Government following the Israeli armed hostilities in Gaza. The number of revocations then, mainly in relation to components given by British exporters to the Israeli navy, were a handful, so this order of magnitude is unprecedented.

In our questions to the Government, we asked for a list of all the licences that have been revoked. It makes extremely interesting reading. They are all there in the Government’s response—25 pages listing the revocations. It is extraordinarily helpful to the House and to the wider public that we now have that information. It lists in each case the end-user country and the details of the equipment sold. But there is one common denominator behind each and every revocation, and it is given in the “reasons” column. In every case, the reason for revocation was the Government’s conclusion that the licence now contravenes criteria 2 and 3 of the consolidated criteria. I remind the House that criterion 2 states that no licence will be granted for

“equipment which might be used for internal repression”.

Criterion 3 states that no licences will be granted for equipment

“which would provoke…prolong…or aggravate”

armed conflicts.

I and, I am sure, the whole House welcome the revocations absolutely, and we welcome the scale of the revocations, but the key point, which the Government seem to be reluctant to acknowledge, is that the scale of the revocations is the clearest possible evidence of the scale of the misjudgment that took place when the export licences were originally granted. The Government must address that—the scale of the misjudgment. The reality is that under the previous Government—we took our analysis back to January 2009—and under the present Government that misjudgment continued up to the dawn of the Arab spring, as journalists who managed to get into the ransacked British embassy in Tripoli found. They found papers there indicating that right up to the start of the Arab spring, we were engaged in major military support and military activities vis-à-vis the Gaddafi Government.

With that sort of background, one might have expected the Government in their response to be somewhat contrite, even apologetic, but sadly that has not been so. When I came face to face with the Foreign Secretary in the Foreign Affairs Committee on 7 September, I found his initial written statement giving the Government’s interim view of their review—the 18 July statement—profoundly misleading, and I will explain why. It contained the following sentence:

“The review concluded that there was no evidence of any misuse of controlled military goods exported from the United Kingdom.”—[Official Report, 18 July 2011; Vol. 531, c. 79WS.]

Of course there was no evidence. One has only to look through the 25 pages of items that we exported to see that their nature was overwhelmingly such that their origin could not be identified when they reached the specified countries. They were made up of electronics, communications equipment, cryptography, ammunition and sniper rifles. There are no Union Jacks on bullets and sniper rifles. The Foreign Secretary said that there was no evidence, but of course there was no evidence, and we did not have anyone on the ground anyway.

The Foreign Secretary continued:

“Consultations with our overseas posts revealed no evidence that any of the offensive naval, air or land-based military platforms used by Governments in north Africa or the middle east against their own populations during the Arab spring, were supplied from the United Kingdom.”—[Official Report, 18 July 2011; Vol. 531, c. 79WS.]

I tabled a question to find out what offensive naval, air or land-based military platforms we had supplied to countries that were the main focus of internal repression in north Africa and the middle east during the Arab spring. Last week, the Minister replied: to Bahrain, none; to Egypt, none; to Syria, none; to Tunisia, none; to Yemen, none. At that point, he must have breathed a sigh of relief in thinking that he was about to break the Government’s duck, and he said that we may have sold up to 12 armoured personnel carriers to Libya. He was, however, obliged to add:

“We cannot verify whether these items were actually exported.”—[Official Report, 12 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 443W.]

Therefore, the Foreign Secretary’s statement suggesting that all is well and that none of the offensive military platforms exported from Britain have been used in the countries under discussion is based on a complete chimera. I have great respect and admiration for the Foreign Secretary, but if his officials, who no doubt drafted that statement, think that they can pull the wool over the eyes of the Committees on Arms Export Controls and of the House, they are making a serious mistake that I hope will not be repeated.

The Foreign Secretary’s most recent statement on 13 October was a distinct improvement, but I still need to be persuaded that the Government have addressed the root of the problem that has been illustrated by the Arab spring and the revocations that we have been obliged to make. The Foreign Secretary stated:

“The review concluded that there are no fundamental flaws with the UK export licensing system.”

It may—or may not—be true that there are no flaws in the system, but I am not persuaded that the Government are addressing the key point about flawed judgments within the system. The inescapable fact is that judgments have been shown to be wildly over-optimistic and rose-tinted regarding the sale to authoritarian regimes of weapons that could be used for internal repression.

The Foreign Secretary continued:

“The Government propose to introduce a mechanism to allow immediate licensing suspension to countries experiencing a sharp deterioration in security or stability,”

but that does not address the central problem, because suspension becomes relevant only after export licensed goods have moved out of the UK. Suspension means that a licence has already been granted and that the goods have left the UK and are out of the door—the bullets have bolted and are in the hands of an authoritarian regime. Although a better system of suspension would provide a good safety net, it does not deal with the central issue of making a correct initial judgment about whether to grant an export licence.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

rose—

[Sir John Stanley]

If the hon. Gentleman will wait one moment, I will finish my point.

The Foreign Secretary added:

“We also propose the introduction of a revised risk categorisation,”.—[Official Report, 13 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 41WS.]

That is a crucial sentence but its meaning is wholly unclear, and it is an issue that the Committees must scrutinise and look at in considerable detail in their next report. They will need to be persuaded that the substantial errors of judgment that have taken place will not reoccur.

[Toby Perkins]

I am grateful that the right hon. Gentleman did not accept my intervention the second I offered it, because he has partially answered my question. Given that the Foreign Secretary’s review went on for some time, was the right hon. Gentleman surprised at how little detail it contained about how the proposed changes will be delivered? There were a relatively small number of suggestions about possible outcomes, but little detail on how those outcomes would be delivered. Having read the review, is the right hon. Gentleman confident that the Foreign Secretary has told the House exactly how improvements will be delivered?

[Sir John Stanley]

As I have said, I remain to be persuaded that the Government have satisfactorily addressed the key issue regarding the scale of misjudgments that have taken place. The key sentence is the one about new criteria, which I have quoted. The hon. Gentleman is right that we need a great deal more detail about what that statement means in terms of the export controls system and how it will be operated by the Government in future.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I am sorry that I missed the first part of the right hon. Gentleman’s speech and I thank him for the way in which he is presenting the report. He makes a good point about the suspension of licences. Is it the case, however, that licences are suspended once weapons or equipment are used and the media choose to report it? The abuse of human rights has been going on for a long time. The abuse of human rights in Bahrain is not new, and neither is the abuse of individual human rights in Saudi Arabia. What is different in Bahrain is that the world’s media have been on the ground reporting on the treatment of those who are opposed to the regime, which has provoked the suspension.

[Sir John Stanley]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that the serious abuses of human rights that have occurred in all those countries subject to revocation orders—I would also add Saudi Arabia, to which I am about to refer, even though there has been no revocation thus far—have been going on for a long period. That poses the central question whether the Government have done enough to ensure that in future we do not put weapons that can be used for internal repression into the hands of regimes in which the abuse of human rights is endemic.

I have three final points. First, I believe that the Government are skating on thin ice in their present policy of the non-revocation of a single arms export licence to Saudi Arabia. I understand the reasons for that policy, but regret that so far the Government have been less than forthcoming—indeed, pretty much non-forthcoming—about the real reasons why they treat Saudi Arabia so differently from those other countries to which I have referred. I am in no doubt about the reasons behind the Government’s policy: there is an intelligence dimension, an oil dimension and a British business interest, all of which are perfectly relevant and legitimate ministerial considerations. I believe, however, that the Government would do better to be open with the House and the Committees about why their policy towards Saudi Arabia is so conspicuously different from that applied to the other countries in question. I hope that Ministers will reflect on that point.

As I have said, the Government are skating on thin ice in their policy of non-revocation in Saudi Arabia. Among the important questions that we asked in our supplementary responses to the Government response, we asked the Government to state the totality of the extant arms export licences to Saudi Arabia and their value. I am glad to say that we have been provided with that information. Those members of the Committees who are present have the information and know that there are pages and pages of it. I am grateful to the Government for giving us that detail, but I intend to offer hon. Members the details of just one little box among the multitude of boxes relating to extant export licences to Saudi Arabia. It refers to

“assault rifles, blank ammunition, components for assault rifles, components for general purpose machine guns, components for machine pistols, components for pistols, components for rifles, components for semi-automatic pistols, components for submachine guns, general purpose machine guns, machine pistols, pistols, rifles, semi-automatic pistols, submachine guns, training small arms ammunition”.

That is just one little box among a multitude, and hon. Members will immediately see that each and every one of the items to which I have referred is usable for internal repression.

Alongside that, I place a report that appeared recently in the British press about the way in which, in the wake of the Arab spring, the Saudi security authorities were dealing with unrest among the Shi’a minority in Saudi Arabia. The report related to the Shi’a town of Awamiya. It stated that

“there have been protests for democracy and civil rights since February, but in the past the police fired into the air. This is the first time they have fired live rounds directly into a crowd.”

There is a huge plethora of weapons, components and munitions that are now in Saudi Arabia, exported from this country, that are not, in value terms, part of the very high end of British exports, which for Saudi Arabia are for national defence, self-defence and so on. Alongside those is this group of exports, which are wholly available to be used for internal repression. I will not be at all surprised if, before the Arab spring runs its course, the British Government find that they have no alternative but to end their policy of absolute non-revocation of any arms export licences to Saudi Arabia.

My second point is that a crucial recommendation made by the Committees has not been answered:

“We further recommend that the Government extends immediately its review of UK arms export licences announced by the FCO Minister, Mr Alistair Burt, on 18 February 2011 to authoritarian regimes worldwide in respect of arms or components of arms which could be used for internal repression.”

The Government said in their response:

“Although this review was originally commissioned in response to events in the Middle East and North Africa, any conclusions will apply to our procedures for arms exports to all countries.”

Applying conclusions to all countries is a different matter from the particular question that we asked—whether the Government would extend their review to authoritarian regimes worldwide. I therefore put these questions to the Minister. Did the Government extend their review to authoritarian regimes worldwide? If not, why not? If they did, have they decided whether to make any revocations of existing arms export licences as being in contravention of criteria 2 and 3? If they have made any such revocations, what are the specific licence revocations and to what countries do they relate? Those are the questions to which we want answers. I hope that the Minister will assure us that we will receive those answers very soon.

Finally, I come to the Government’s policy on exporting arms and equipment to countries where they might be used for internal repression. In my remarks so far, I have had to be somewhat critical of some of the comments made by Foreign Office Ministers, but at this point I warmly commend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), on his statement announcing the Government’s review of arms export controls on 18 February. He got the wording and the punctuation, which is critical, absolutely correct. I shall read into the record and for the benefit of hon. Members the key sentence from the Minister:

“The longstanding British position is clear: We will not issue licences where we judge there is a clear risk that the proposed export might provoke or prolong regional or internal conflicts,”—

that comma is crucial—

“or which might be used to facilitate internal repression.”

That is absolutely correct wording and punctuation, from which hon. Members will see that there are in fact two separate tests. There is the “clear risk” test as to whether the proposed export could aggravate conflict. If we had just the “clear risk” test, we could probably end up justifying the sale of pretty well anything to any country. We could say, “Well, there’s a bit of a risk, but it’s not a clear risk, so we can sell.” We would probably draw the line at Chairman Kim Jong Il in North Korea, President Mugabe and the Burmese military junta, but for everyone else, we could say, “Well, the risk isn’t clear. Let’s get on and sell.”

That is why the second part—the remainder—of the Minister’s statement is critical:

“or which might be used to facilitate internal repression.”

I say very firmly to this Minister and to the House that the Committees on Arms Export Controls attach the utmost importance to that wording and to its retention by the British Government, so that we can be assured that British weapons and equipment will not be used for internal repression.

I hope that I have not gone on too long. I hope that our report has been truly helpful to the House and to the wider public. I very much look forward to hearing the contributions of other right hon. and hon. Members, and of course I await the Minister’s reply.

15:07

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Chair of the Committees on Arms Export Controls on the way in which he has presented the report today. He has said many things that many of us who are members of the Committees fully agree with, and I suspect that many other hon. Members will also be pleased that someone in his position has said those things, because the reality is that Governments of all political persuasions have followed a course whereby they have misjudged the risks that arms being sold by Britain have presented not only under authoritarian regimes in the middle east and Africa, but under many regimes throughout the world.

The reason for that may well be the huge economic benefits that Britain has acquired in the past from the arms trade. I believe that Britain is second only to the United States in terms of the money that it makes from the arms trade. I understand that in response to a freedom of information request by the Campaign Against Arms Trade, it was confirmed that between 2000 and 2009 the UK took $93 billion in defence exports. This is a key debate for us all, because we need to recognise that there is huge economic and political pressure on Governments of all persuasions to allow the trade to continue. It is therefore important that the Committees on Arms Export Controls, which were established by the previous Labour Government, have continued in this Parliament. I welcome the report and today’s debate on it, and I hope that that is a sign that we will have regular debates on this issue and that the Government will listen carefully to what the Committees say.

I am a junior member of the Committees, which I joined fairly recently. When I first joined, one concern was that the Government were perhaps not treating the Committees as seriously as had previously been the case. That was partly because the report that the Government provided the Committees with was far shorter than previous reports, although the Minister will no doubt assure me that it made up for that in quality. The fact that more junior Ministers were sent to give evidence to the Committees also led to concern. I therefore urge the Government to ensure they do not create the impression that the Committees and their work on this issue are not being treated seriously.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)]

Specifically on that point, and as a junior member of the Government, let me assure the hon. Lady that both Cabinet Ministers I work with on this issue take it very seriously. Indeed, she is right to say that just because a Government report is brief that does not necessarily mean it does not answer the questions, and I hope the subsequent information we provided, which the Chair of the Committee identified, highlights that. I hope she will accept that point.

[Katy Clark]

I thank the Minister for that intervention.

In many ways, successive Administrations have dealt with this issue in a similar fashion, as the report makes clear. In the early days of this Government, however, Ministers seemed keen to promote arms exports from the UK—indeed, that was true before they took office. In a speech to the Royal United Services Institute in February 2010, the former Defence Secretary talked about maximising

“the UK’s share of global defence exports”.

That points to a dilemma and a conflict, given the economic interests of Britain and of many of the companies that produce these weapons up and down the country—as constituency MPs, we are very aware of the job implications of this trade—and the fact that the weapons used by authoritarian, oppressive regimes have been sold under successive British Governments.

As everyone in the Chamber will be aware, it was reported during the Arab spring that authoritarian regimes used British weapons to repress their own people. Weapons sold during 2010 to countries such as Bahrain included CS hand grenades, sniper rifles, shotguns and tear gas—the kinds of weaponry it would be reasonable to expect that authoritarian regimes would use for internal repression. Indeed, Libya was sold crowd-control ammunition, small-arms ammunition and tear gas among other things. In the first eight months of 2010, the weapons sold to Syria, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, among other countries in the region, were all of the type that we would expect regimes to use in internal repression.

This week, Campaign Against Arms Trade reported that although sales to the region dipped in March, they increased from April to June. It also reported that the Government have approved arms exports of about £1.7 billion to Saudi Arabia. It would therefore be useful if the Minister were to confirm whether there has been an increase in the sales of weaponry in recent months, particularly to the middle east and north Africa. As my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) has said, there is always a fear that Governments react only when there is media attention and political focus on an issue. I hope that the fact that there has been a response to the Arab spring and that a review has been announced means that we will start reviewing these issues and look at not only the short term, but the long-term policy.

One issue that I want to focus on, which the Chair of the Committees did not focus strongly on, is the work the Government are doing in the lead-up to the arms trade treaty, which we hope will be in place in 2012. Will the Government give us assurances that they are doing everything possible to ensure that we achieve as robust a treaty as possible and that Britain is at the forefront of work to ensure that the treaty has an impact worldwide?

One issue I have looked at recently is the manufacture of depleted uranium armaments. I would be interested to hear the Minister outline the Government’s position on that and particularly on achieving international regulation of such weaponry. The Committees have been given evidence that some states that have traditionally looked to the UK for leadership are concerned that it is not giving as much political priority to achieving an international arms trade treaty as was the case previously. I would be grateful if the Minister were to assure us that everything is being done to ensure that Britain looks carefully at how our weaponry is used abroad and that we have more robust international legislation, so that we are not alone in trying to ensure that we achieve progress.

Much of the Committees’ report focuses on the use of weaponry for internal repression, but there are, of course, far broader issues associated with the arms trade. It is difficult to know whether it is possible to have an ethical arms trade, but many of us hope that we can move towards a position where Britain is not as reliant on the defence industry and has a more diverse, balanced economy. There has been a lot of debate recently about our dependence on the financial sector, but many of us feel that Britain should be ashamed of our dependence on the defence industry and that we should move towards a position where we are less reliant on it and do not, therefore, feel under such pressure to ensure that the trade in armaments continues with repressive and undemocratic regimes.

15:18

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley) on his typically detailed and forceful presentation of the position adopted by the Committees on Arms Export Controls. I have served on the Committees on and off for almost 15 years; I served on them as a member of the Select Committee on Defence, I served on them in the previous Parliament and I am serving on them again in this Parliament. I have to say, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely assiduous in his relentless pursuit of officials and Ministers. When he issues officials in a Department with a gentle warning, they need to heed it; if they do not, they will get many more communications in the long run than if they had heeded it quickly.

I want to begin by referring to last week’s written ministerial statement by the Foreign Secretary. Tucked away in the back of it is a paragraph about how the Government can also consider how we can

“strengthen our decision making when we provide security and justice assistance overseas.”

Those issues are linked, because there are countries to which we export weaponry, where we also provide training and engage in intelligence co-operation, and give help to the civil power on such things as counter-narcotics.

It is in that context that I want to talk about two countries; and in doing so I want to raise a wider question about lack of transparency on relevant questions. Our Committee receives detailed information, some of it confidential, about arms exports. We receive detailed breakdowns of the value and general scope of the categories of weaponry, and we know which categories exports are in—general or specific. We have information about those that are refused and revoked. However, unfortunately, similar information is not available about some other areas. I could give numerous examples, but will quote just a few.

The British Government do not sell significant quantities of weaponry to Colombia. That country has had a very difficult human rights legacy: an insurgency, drug cartels, and assassinations and murders of politicians, trade unionists and human rights activists. It is thought that it is still the country with the largest number of murders of trade unionists. However, we have had—and this goes back to the Labour Government—a period of systematic co-operation on counter-narcotics with the Colombian Government and their forces. Yet successive parliamentary questions have been put to Ministers over the years, and we never receive any detail. In November 2010 such a question received the answer:

“Our counter-narcotics work in Colombia is scrupulously monitored to ensure it cannot contribute to any human rights abuses. We do not discuss the detail of this narcotics work publicly as doing so risks putting UK and Colombian lives in danger.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2010; Vol. 519, c. 551W.]

A similar answer, received in July 2010, was:

“The only military aid we provide to Colombia is for the ongoing programme of counter-narcotics assistance. It would not be appropriate to provide details about this programme, as to do so would prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security of the armed forces.”—[Official Report, 12 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 446W.]

To go back to the time of the previous Government—I am criticising the general approach, not the present Government—this answer was given in December 2009:

“We do not disclose the value of our counter-narcotics assistance to Colombia. To do so would put British and Colombian lives at risk. This decision has been upheld by the parliamentary ombudsman.”—[Official Report, 3 November 2009; Vol. 498, c. 935W.]

There is a problem, and a serious question of accountability to Parliament. We are told by Ministers that the human rights situation in Colombia is not as bad as many critics say. We are told by the Colombian Government that the situation is improving, and that things are not as difficult or bad as they were. They accept that there were terrible things in the past, but they are doing their best. However, there is no transparency, and if the Government are to deal with the deep concerns that we have, they should provide more detailed information. We get information about arms exports, but not about military support or training support for counter-narcotics work in Colombia.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I thank my hon. Friend for the way he puts the case of Colombia. Does he accept that there is a problem, because in making their assessments, Governments tend to work on the dangerous assumption that the armed forces are a seamless whole, working under the orders of civilian Government control? They do not necessarily think that those forces will have an osmotic relationship with irregular forces, militias, drug dealers or anyone else. Supplying arms to an army somewhere like Colombia—and there are other places like it—means, in reality, providing resources that can go anywhere and be used for any kind of repression.

[Mike Gapes]

I accept that that is a danger. Obviously, countries vary considerably, and Ministers and ministries vary too. Sometimes the problem is not institutional; there may be a personnel problem, involving those who have corrupt or political links with people or organisations carrying out a parallel policy.

Speaking of parallel policies, I want to discuss what has been happening in Sri Lanka. There was a period under the previous Government when we were selling a large quantity of armaments to Sri Lanka. That was mainly during the ceasefire, which lasted about two years and then broke down. At that time, a large number of export licences to Sri Lanka were revoked. As of 2009, when the civil war between the Sri Lankan Government and the Tamil Tigers came to its conclusion, exports from this country were very limited. However, the Sri Lankan armed forces undoubtedly used vast quantities of stockpiled imported ammunition, munitions and weaponry for their armed forces on land and their naval forces. Much of that undoubtedly came from the United Kingdom.

It now seems that the Sri Lankan Government have been lobbying very hard, both before and since the change of Government in this country in 2010, for a relaxation of the current restrictions on arms exports to Sri Lanka. I should like the Minister to give me an assurance that there is no change in export policy on Sri Lanka, and that we are not satisfied that the human rights situation has improved sufficiently for there to be a change of policy. A few months ago, the Government stated that we were awaiting the outcome of an internal assessment by the commission established by the Sri Lankan Government, which is due to report next month, before determining whether to press for an independent international inquiry into the serious allegations of war crimes committed in 2009. Those were documented on Channel 4 and elsewhere, and by the special representative established by the UN Secretary-General, Ban Ki-moon. Will the Minister assure me that that means there will be no relaxation until we are satisfied that there has been a significant change of approach in Sri Lanka?

The reason why I raise such concerns is that reports have appeared—for example, Jason Burke’s in The Guardian on 13 October—about the number of unofficial visits made by the former Secretary of State for Defence and his personal adviser Mr Werritty to Sri Lanka, and the number of meetings that took place between the Minister in question and senior figures in the Sri Lankan Government. I shall give just one quotation, but there are many. The article in The Guardian, talking about 2009, before the general election, states:

“With political officers in London telling Sri Lanka that Labour was almost certain to lose coming elections, Fox was seen in Colombo as a major potential asset…Sources say now that they received specific information that Gotabhaya Rajapaksa, the feared defence secretary and the brother of the president, had asked Fox to lobby for more access to British weapons.”

Fortunately, the next paragraph states:

“In fact, with evidence of human rights abuses within Sri Lanka mounting, the restrictions were tightened.”

That was under the Labour Government before the general election. Since then, we have seen a number of visits by Ministers and contacts made with the Sri Lankan Government. I would like to know what matters were discussed. Was a relaxation of arms export restrictions on Sri Lanka discussed in meetings between Defence and other Ministers and representatives of the Sri Lankan Government? If so, what was our Government’s response to any request?

It seems that a parallel policy has been going on. Jim Pickard wrote the following in the Financial Times on 12 October:

“Last year a memorandum of understanding was struck between the Sri Lankan government and…two funds”,

the first being the Sri Lanka infrastructure development fund and the second being the Sri Lanka charitable fund. He continued:

“A trust set up by Liam Fox to help Sri Lanka’s development appears to have achieved nothing other than to pay for the MP’s trips to the country”.

My question to the Minister is, why was the former Secretary of State visiting Sri Lanka? Did he discuss arms exports to Sri Lanka or a relaxation of the British policy of restricting defence exports to that country? It is important that those questions be answered, because we know that the Sri Lankan Government have been lobbying hard since 2009 for what they regard as a normalisation of their relationships with a number of countries, in an effort to return to receiving a large amount of weaponry and components, which they had been getting from the UK for many years before 2009.

As I understand it, the Foreign Secretary has been to Sri Lanka only once since the general election, but the former Defence Secretary has been there three times in the past year to meet its President. He also attended the national convention of the President’s political party. I wonder whether there was a consistency regarding the policies on arms exports—

[Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is experienced. I am sure that he has read the report carefully and will be careful to relate his comments closely to it, and not veer too widely into the former Defence Secretary’s activities.

[Mike Gapes]

I will do so. I wish simply to point out that there is an important restriction on Sri Lanka receiving arms exports at the moment. My concern is whether there is any information that may have led Ministers to become aware that there have been attempts to change that policy. If not, I would like an assurance on that. The four Select Committees have jointly raised the issue of arms exports to Sri Lanka in successive reports. We also took evidence and questioned Ministers, officials and other organisations when they came before our Committee, both in the previous year and before that.

Finally, I would like to return to what is happening in the Arab world. The right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling rightly highlighted the problem of what might happen in countries that have not yet gone through a revolutionary transformation. We know that the Bahraini regime was, at its request, propped up by neighbouring Gulf Co-operation Council states. Armed forces from Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates went into Bahrain. As far as I am aware, they have done a policing operation and have not been engaged. There is no evidence of a repression by those forces in Bahrain. However, the political situation there remains fraught. Its regime is a monarchy, but it is a minority in Bahraini society: it is a Sunni regime ruling a majority Shi’a population in a volatile region. Neighbouring Iran has territorial ambitions on Bahrain and is undoubtedly meddling in the politics of the Arab world.

There is potential for further serious violence in Bahrain. At the moment, we need to be careful about what that violence could do to trigger wider Sunni-Shi’a violence, not just there but in other parts of the region. There is a significant Shi’a minority in Saudi Arabia, and we need to be aware that the Saudi regime, even though it is more popular than some other regimes in the region, has a potential problem. Saudi Arabia has a growing, young population that lacks employment opportunities. If world oil prices go down, as they seem to be doing at the moment, the regime will no longer be able to use its money in the same way to buy off potential discontent. We need to be aware that exported British arms could then become available in a volatile situation. The Government need to look ahead not just one or two years, but to what kind of Arab world or Gulf we will have, and what Britain’s role will be. Which side will we be on?

15:37

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I am pleased to be able to take part in the debate. I thank the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley) for the way in which he introduced it and the thorough nature of the report. Parliament has come a long way over the past 15 years. We now have the Committees to monitor arms exports, an annual debate and the facility to hold the Government to account on individual export licences. That is a great improvement from the past, when there was no facility whatsoever to discuss the issues in any way. I therefore want to thank the MPs who have campaigned for that successful change in Parliament’s procedures on the issue over the years. Clearly, if the procedures are to work, this debate has to work, and it is more than a little disappointing that so few Members are present this afternoon. Many Members regularly sign early-day motions and other things condemning human rights abuses and arms exports to repressive regimes, so it is a shame that they cannot be here to develop that case.

I want to raise many issues, but I realise that even with the paucity of Members, there is still a limit on time. I want to draw attention to the points made by the Select Committee report, particularly the reference made to the judgment and misjudgment of successive Governments concerning what is happening in the Arab world, north Africa and the middle east in particular.

There is a recommendation on enforcement, particularly against brass-plate companies, which are companies that are registered in the UK but trading in arms from overseas locations. I realise that that is quite a complex and difficult legal area to deal with, but we have to be tough on British-based operations that in reality evade any export controls on arms that end up being used for repression. Page 3 of the report states that

“there is no justification for allowing a UK person to conduct arms exports overseas that would be a criminal offence if carried out from the UK and we recommend that the Government extends extra-territoriality to all items on the Military List in Category C.”

The last point to which I wish to draw attention is the end-use of torture equipment, much of which is not obviously torture equipment but ends up being used as such when it arrives in the hands of a particularly repressive regime.

Earlier, I intervened on the right hon. Gentleman to ask about the revocation of arms export licences to Bahrain, but the same could apply to a number of other places. It simply is not good enough to decide that an armed force in a particular country is following all the relevant Geneva conventions when there is a civil conflict going on in that society. I mentioned Colombia, but I could have also included the Congo and many other societies around the world, where the army is simply not an insular institution that is following Government orders. It is often dominated by rogue elements, and there is an inevitable crossover between them, militia activities, criminal activities and drug-related gangs. The same could apply in many other countries in Central America where there is not a large volume of British arms exports but nevertheless there are deep suspicions of the involvement of armed forces in wholly illegal and illicit activities that provoke civilian conflict. At one level, the army presents itself as a reasonable organisation, but at another level, it is not.

If we think back to the 1970s, British planes and other equipment and arms were sold to Chile under the elected Government of Salvador Allende. Those planes were then used to bomb the presidential palace, which resulted in the death of the President and the terrible night of Pinochet’s years. Selling arms has an effect, even if they are sold to a regime that we might agree with or, at that stage, approve of. We must be careful to condemn human rights abuses when the arms concerned have been provided by us in the first place.

On the question of the suspension of arms exports to Israel, particularly surrounding Operation Cast Lead in 2008-09, the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), had an interesting exchange of views with the Chair of the Select Committee. On 10 February 2011, he said:

“I can confirm that UK policy on the export of controlled goods and equipment to Israel has not changed since the Coalition Government took office. All export licence applications to Israel are considered on a case-by-case basis against the Consolidated EU and National Export Licensing Criteria.”

The Select Committee then quite rightly said:

“We further recommend that if the Government is unable to identify any such arms or components of arms, it formally withdraws the statement of policy quoted in this paragraph.”

There is a belief that the weapons are actually used to further the occupation of the west bank and Gaza and not for the national defence of Israel. This is a critical area of policy that needs to be further examined.

We have been listening to what is happening in Libya. The death of Colonel Gaddafi was announced a few hours ago, and there will now be a different Government. An interesting picture appeared on Facebook yesterday, showing a montage of European leaders literally having hugs and kisses and embraces with Colonel Gaddafi. No one was spared and no one is missing and all the pictures were taken in the last two years. The arms that have been sold to Libya were being delivered up until March of this year, and we were training Libyan forces until then, too. There was a close economic relationship with Colonel Gaddafi’s Government, as I do not doubt there will now be with the Transitional National Council. It looks a tad of a short space of time, between March 2011 and October 2011, to be selling arms to a Government who, a month later, we decided were deeply oppressive and had to be opposed by all means—indeed, NATO forces helped to oppose that particular Government—to the current situation. What goes round comes round. The suggestion of hypocrisy in the policies conducted by successive western European Governments must be considered very carefully.

I am pleased that arms exports to Bahrain have been stopped. The human rights abuses there are serious. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) mentioned the Gulf Co-operation Council forces that are in Bahrain. Yes, they are in Bahrain and they are part of the Gulf Co-operation Council agreement, but in reality, their presence there bolsters the Government of Bahrain and protects them in their wish to continue their existence.

Human rights abuses in Bahrain are not new. I first met people from Bahraini human rights groups at a UN conference in 1986, which is an awfully long time ago. They were concerned about the suspension of the constitution, the lack of parliamentary democracy, or its limited nature, and the discrimination in that society and they have been bravely campaigning on those issues ever since then. The request to suspend arms sales to Bahrain is not a new one, and I am glad that it has now been carried out. We have also exported a great deal of surveillance equipment to the country, which has been used on the opposition and resulted in imprisonment, torture and all kinds of other things. I welcome the suspension of sales, which appears in great detail in the Select Committee report and the Government’s response to it.

Saudi Arabia, which has been mentioned by two of the previous speakers, is the biggest single importer of British arms. The sales between Britain and Saudi Arabia are absolutely massive. It still makes me angry to think about how the previous Prime Minister bar two, Tony Blair, intervened to suspend a Serious Fraud Office investigation into the al-Yamamah arms contract with Saudi Arabia. He said that it was not in the national interest to investigate that particular contract because it was too big and too important to BAE Systems. I am sorry but if we are serious about human rights, democracy and protecting people’s lives, we should be equally serious about what we sell, what we export, what we profit from and what practices we condone by not being prepared to investigate them. I hope that the regime of control of arms exports that the Committees suggest is something that the Government will take on board.

The last couple of points that I want to mention come from the Amnesty briefing, which says:

“It is vital that a strong commitment to human rights and international law are a core part of the final ATT.”

It then urges the UK Government to

“Prevent sceptical governments from trying to use the ‘consensus’ as a way of watering down or de-railing the ATT process.

Prevent a weak treaty from being a dangerous backwards step for human rights and international law.

Express support for the ATT to include the ‘Golden Rules’ that prevent transfers”—

so that there is a proper end-user system, and—

“Support comprehensive scope, including conventional weapons of all kinds.”

We are talking in part about highly sophisticated weaponry, night-sight equipment, surveillance equipment and all the rest of it, but I have seen—as have other Members in this Chamber—the most appalling abuses of human rights in the Congo and other places. There is nothing sophisticated about any of it. There is nothing sophisticated about the weaponry that is used. It is a lot of second-hand Kalashnikovs and second-hand weapons that have been bought on the open market anywhere around the world. Those weapons are used to create the most appalling mayhem that kills a very large number of wholly innocent people who are merely trying to survive in an area that, unfortunately, is blessed with huge mineral wealth, which is of greater interest to mining companies than the human rights of the people concerned.

We have a lot to learn from what has happened in the past few months. I welcome the fact that arms exports have been suspended in many cases. I hope that the Minister will take on board the point that I made in an intervention to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South concerning the examination of the role of a military in a particular society, the quasi-independence under which the military operate and the activities that the military might be wholly illegally engaged in. It is not good enough for the Government of a particular country to come along and say, “Our military do what we say,” when we have a great deal of suspicion—indeed, there may well be a lot of common suspicion among other countries—about what the military in that country actually do.

My hon. Friend asked a very specific question about Sri Lanka and I thought that it was a very good and very fair question. The Government of Sri Lanka were very quick to use the ceasefire process to stock themselves up with large amounts of arms while arms sales to Sri Lanka are currently suspended. There is a huge diplomatic initiative by the Government of Sri Lanka to be allowed to buy arms all around the world. The human rights situation in Sri Lanka is not right: there are still too many people in prison; there are still too many people suffering; and there is still a lack of a rehabilitation process that can bring about a proper peace there. Given those factors, we have no business to be selling arms to Sri Lanka.

[Mr Prisk]

I did not have the chance earlier, because the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) moved on to other topics, but for his assurance, the House’s assurance and the assurance of the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), I am happy to say that the policy on Sri Lanka has not changed, and that is a categorical position.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I thank the Minister for that intervention and I am very relieved to hear that, because the lobbying on this matter by the Sri Lankan Government is quite intensive.

In conclusion, I want to echo the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark). If we as a country rely on a large volume of arms exports and on an arms industry, we run the risk of being culpable in the abuse of human rights, the killing of civilians and the promotion of conflict. We should think quite seriously about these things and about the role that we play. Perhaps we should instead embark on a longer-term strategy of being less dependent on the arms industry and arms exports, and put the skills in the arms industry towards the creation of more socially useful products. The skills and abilities in the arms industry are fantastic, and the knowledge in the industry is incredible, but that knowledge can be used for good things just as much as it can be used to produce weapons that can end up causing the most appalling destruction, even if that was not the intention behind their use when they were initially exported.

15:52

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Thank you very much, Mr Leigh, for calling me to speak.

I start by welcoming the work that has been done by the Committees under the chairmanship of the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley). The work that has been done by the Committees, including the production of this report, and the extent of the scrutiny that the Government are under in this area do great credit to the right hon. Gentleman and the Committees. I hope that he will pass on the thanks and warm congratulations of the Labour party and, I believe, of Members from all parties for the work that the Committees are doing. That work is unquestionably adding tremendously to the transparency in this important area, and it is extremely valuable. The success that the Committees have had on the decision about sodium thiopental was a worthwhile sign of the importance of their scrutiny.

The Committees have scrutinised the statements that have come from the Government, particularly the recent statement from the Foreign Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman was somewhat generous in saying that the Foreign Secretary could not be blamed as he was only reading out the words that his officials had put in front of him. I am sure that there are many Secretaries of State who would be grateful to be scrutinised in that way. None the less, it is clear that a very thorough piece of work has been done by the Committees.

I will talk about some of the contributions to the debate, but prior to that I will talk briefly in my capacity as the shadow small business Minister about the importance of the defence industry. The defence policy, as has been expressed by the Government in their response to the Committee’s report, is about defence first and industry second. If we as a human race had managed during the past 3,000 or 4,000 years to come up with a better way of resolving our differences than getting into military conflict, the world would be a better place, but we have not done so. As a result of that, the defence industry exists.

The defence industry is not only crucial to Britain—it is an industry in which we are world leaders—but it is an industry in which, notwithstanding many of the reservations that have been expressed by the Committees, we have a very strong track record in terms of our commitment to an ethical policy. It is also vital to the interests of Britain on the world stage that, as many Members have reflected on, we try to strike the right balance between having serious concerns that any products that carry the stamp “Made in Britain” are sold responsibly and ethically, and supporting our vital defence industry.

It is worth reflecting for a moment on the contribution that the defence industry makes.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I thank you too, Mr Leigh, for allowing me to speak. Would it be an idea for the British defence industry, which in many ways is our largest industry, to be switched from being a responsibility of the Ministry of Defence to being a responsibility of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills? Would that be an idea that might be worth thinking about anyway?

[Toby Perkins]

I have no doubt that it is an idea worth considering, but the relationship between the defence industry and our own military interests, in terms of the defence of this nation, are so intertwined that we can entirely understand that relationship too. It is because our defence industry and our defence interests—militarily —span so many different areas that we have the Committees on Arms Export Controls, which was formerly the Quadripartite Committee, looking at arms controls and recognising that it is a defence issue, a Foreign Office issue, an international development issue and an important business issue. That shows how important the issue of arms controls is.

Shortly, I will refer to the contributions that have been made in the debate by Members so far. Before that, however, I want to talk about the contribution that the defence industry makes. Total employment in the defence industry is about 314,000 people, with about half those people being employed directly and the other half employed in the supply chain. The defence industry accounts for about 10% of manufacturing jobs in the UK. A study by Oxford Economics found that the UK defence industry has a highly skilled work force, as my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) has said, with 39% of the workers in the industry holding a NVQ level 4 qualification, which is a similar percentage to that in the UK’s banking and finance sector. There are high-value manufacturing and engineering jobs in the industry that would be very difficult to replace if they were lost. According to the previous Government’s 2009 value added scoreboard, the aerospace and defence sector added £12 billion in value to the economy. In addition, Oxford Economics also found that a £100 million investment in the industry generates an increase in gross output of £227 million and increases Exchequer revenues by £11.5 million. The defence industry is very important to us.

Alongside that, however, there is an issue that was raised by my hon. Friends the Members for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) and for Islington North. They suggested that, within the redevelopment and the rebalancing of our economy, it would be preferable if defence played a less significant part. The implication that I took from their comments was that they were suggesting not only that we should grow the rest of the economy while the defence industry stays the same, so that defence becomes less significant, but that we should try to reduce the amount that we are doing with regard to defence. Although I agree with many of the comments that have been made in the debate, I take issue with that particular suggestion. Given that there will be arms going out there into the world; given that we are a country that has a strong track record of taking issues of arms control seriously; and given the many steps that we are taking in terms of increasing transparency, it is absolutely right that we should want to ensure that weapons that are going out into the world are going out responsibly, rather than saying, “Let’s shrink our industry and let someone else do that”.

It is important to get that side of the scrutiny right, and the Select Committee plays a key part in that. In doing that, we take responsibility for what is out there in the world and for the way in which weapons are supplied, rather than simply allowing them to be supplied by nations that would not perhaps take the same care. That is the only point on which I take issue with what was said.

[Hugh Bayley in the Chair]

[Katy Clark]

I am listening with interest to my hon. Friend. Does he agree that we are lucky to live in a stable democracy when the majority of peoples in the world probably do not? We must take that major factor into account when thinking about how to develop our economy in that area, and the Committee’s work is a step in that direction. Does he not believe that we need to think more about that issue?

[Toby Perkins]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are having this debate for precisely that reason, and that is why the Committee’s work is so important and why the previous Government introduced arms export controls and made a lot of progress. I would never say that we should take the view, “Someone’s going to supply the weapons so it might as well be us”—we need strong, stringent controls. Having a Government whom we know are responsible and an industry that is scrutinised as strongly as possible is for the betterment of the world—and, by the way, has strong economic and commercial benefits. I will return later to some of the important conflicts that my hon. Friend mentioned.

In a statement, the leader of the Labour Party, my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), expressed some of the challenges, saying that

“we should never reduce foreign policy to a narrow pursuit of commercial gain for Britain…we should also examine our arms sales to ensure that UK weaponry is not used for the repression of people”

in other countries. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran takes great succour, as do I, from that contribution, which recognises that foreign policy is about much more than simply promoting Britain’s interests. Acknowledging that difficult balance, and notwithstanding the areas of agreement between the parties, the Prime Minister got it wrong when he travelled to the middle east with members of the arms industry at an incredibly delicate time for the future of the region. The visit struck entirely the wrong chord; our country got the balance wrong at that point in time.

In their contributions, many Members have recognised the difficult balance on both sides, and the fine line we tread. Generally, however, the strategic approach of both the previous and the current Government has been that arms must not be sold to nations that will use them for external aggression or internal repression, and that they should be used, as it says on the tin, for defence. The approach recognises that nations have the right to defend their sovereign lands but not, as we have seen, to oppress their people and use weaponry to stamp on legitimate demonstration.

Britain is a world leader in export controls, and the previous Government took many steps in that area, but that is not to say that there is not a lot more we can do. Before Labour came to power, we had last legislated on arms export controls in 1939. We had the consolidated criteria in 2000 and the Export Control Act in 2002, and since 2004 the quarterly report has brought much greater scrutiny to our arms exports. The success of that regime is highlighted in annex 1 of the Government’s response to the report—Cm 8079—regarding the number of standard individual export licence revocations, particularly to Bahrain, Egypt and Libya in recent months but, as the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling said, to other countries as well. He talked about the increase in the number of revocations, an increase that is not entirely surprising given the recent Arab spring, and the sense of change in that part of the world quite unlike at any other time in recent history.

I recognise many of those steps forward, but doubts remain. I was struck by the many wise contributions of colleagues. The right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling talked about the Government’s suggestion that the defence industry’s funding of the Export Control Organisation would be an improvement, and I share entirely his reservations about how the public would view that. Can the Minister explain whether that is being considered because the country wants to address its budget deficit, or because for some reason the Government think it would improve the body’s independence? It sounds rather simplistically like, “He who pays the piper calls the tune,” and I would be very concerned about how that was perceived. Will the Minister, either now or in his contribution, tell us the Government’s thoughts on why that option would be better?

The right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling referred to the important matter, detailed in the report, of brass plate companies acting with relative impunity. There is a suggestion in the Foreign Secretary’s statement that there will be easier ways to revoke licences, but there is little information about how that would be delivered, and I hope to hear more detail from the Minister. The right hon. Gentleman also spoke about the importance of pressing, in the European Union, for the amendment of article 4.2, and more broadly about the importance of the Government’s work in getting international co-operation within the EU on the arms trade treaty. I am looking for a commitment from the Government that every necessary resource will be given to our negotiating team, to ensure that, given the Government’s worthwhile intentions, we have done everything possible to secure a much stronger realisation among our international partners of the importance of the treaty, and that vested interests do not get in the way of delivering the detail that we need.

My hon. Friends the Members for North Ayrshire and Arran and for Islington North talked about the importance of the report and of this debate, and expressed their hope that the continued work of the Committee—work that does it great credit—is as strong as it has been in its first year. My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran reflected on the conflict between commercial and ethical considerations, and on the delicate balance that exists. In simple terms, what is laid out strategically in the document, if properly enforced and enacted, should strike the correct balance. It makes it clear that the UK defence industry is important and contributes commercially and that we have high expectations for its administration and transparency, but that notwithstanding any commercial interests, if attempted trade conflicts with the criteria—if weapons will be used for internal repression or are likely to aggravate armed conflict—licences should either be revoked or not given. The policies before us contain the means to act; we must ensure, where failures have occurred, that those policies are pursued as they should be.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran reflected on the importance of ensuring that we keep the review in our minds after it has faded from the news and that our focus on it does not move on when the news agenda does. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) spoke about security, assistance overseas and conflicts between that and other services and trade. He spoke particularly about the lack of transparency in counter-narcotics work. With his tremendous experience in foreign affairs, he will recognise that there is always a balance between transparency and security. None the less, he expressed the view that he wanted more transparency. He asked valid questions about the visits of the former Defence Secretary to Sri Lanka, and if he does not get answers today, I know that he will pursue them on another day.

My hon. Friend the Member for Islington North focused on the particularly important issue of torture equipment. The Committee’s work to hold the Government to account on that issue is valuable. He also focused on the corruption of armies’ aims under some regimes in other parts of the world.

The importance of US-UK defence trade co-operation was mentioned in the report, but not in the debate. We welcome it and recognise that its primary purpose is to improve the delivery of military capability and UK firms’ access to US-sourced equipment and information, but it also has knock-on benefits.

Will the Minister reflect in his response on the performance of the Export Control Organisation? Does he believe that the complaints about its performance by the industry are valid? I have written to him with a parliamentary question asking how delayed the 36% of standard individual export licences are that are not processed within 20 days. I recognise that the report says that last year, the ECO missed its target, and that there have been improvements since then, but I am interested specifically in the percentage of SIELs that are not processed within 20 days. Are they a couple of days late, a couple of weeks late or much later than that? He will, as I say, shortly receive a written parliamentary question to that end, but if he can shed any light on the matter today, that would be wonderful.

Given the extent of the cuts to UK defence budgets and the tremendous pressure they are putting on the UK defence industry, it is vital that licence applications be processed in a timely fashion when our defence industry attempts to trade with trusted nations that present no large-scale concerns. The defence industry reports that contracts have been lost in cases where there were no worries about the licence application, but the process simply took longer than it should have. Business vital to this country’s defence industry is being lost as a result of bureaucratic failure.

The Foreign Secretary’s report has been some time in coming. The Committee’s report was published in July and contains numerous questions to which we have awaited the Foreign Secretary’s response. He said that he would return to it in his statement, but the brevity of the statement and its lack of detail are disappointing. I look forward to hearing the Minister expand on it.

On the new ability to suspend arms licences, on what grounds does the Minister think that is likely to happen? Will it be based purely on evidence, or will it take risk into account? If there have been no failures in the past but risk assessment procedures suggest that there will be problems in future, will arms licences be suspended on that basis? Will he expand on the revised risk assessment procedures, which will consider more factors? The Foreign Secretary’s statement says that there will be greater ministerial oversight. How will that be triggered? Are any extra resources being provided for that? How will it be delivered within the improvements in end-use monitoring? What specifically are the improvements to transparency in reporting?

I agree with the Committee that the Government’s move to bring the British consolidated criteria in line with the EU consolidated criteria appears too protracted. What is the time line on that? Do the Government accept the view of the Export Group for Aerospace and Defence on the ECO’s performance? Finally, what resources will the UK negotiating team on the arms trade treaty have at its disposal to push for the strongest possible deal internationally? Can the Minister assuage the Committee’s concern that the resource being given is insufficient to ensure that something sustainable, workable and powerful will be delivered?

We are grateful for the work done by the Committee, and we look forward to working positively and constructively with the Government on the issue. We recognise that there are good intentions across the House. If we feel that the fine line to which many colleagues have referred is being overstepped, or that this country’s vital commercial interests are superseding equally vital, if not more vital, ethical interests, we will be quick to say so. We want to be certain that the stamp “Made in Britain” can go out around the world with pride, and that everything possible has been done to ensure that those products are being delivered to nations and organisations we can be proud to trade with.

16:18

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)]

The hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) was right to say that it is disappointing that only five Members have spoken, but my goodness, we have had some informed contributions, and it has been a constructive and wide debate. It has covered everything from licensing to the defence industry, Sri Lanka, the middle east, the Arab spring, the arms trade treaty, brass-plate companies and so on. I will come to all those points in my closing remarks if I can, and will try to respond to all the issues raised.

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley). As his Committee colleague the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) said, he is assiduous and determined, and he keeps us on our toes. That is exactly as it should be. It does not necessarily make things easier from my point of view, but that is what the relationship between Parliament and the Government should be. Although I suspect that I might come to regret those remarks at different points, what my right hon. Friend does is nevertheless important.

These are crucial issues and there are real tensions—as has been highlighted in a number of contributions—about how we strike the right balance. Sometimes we will make a judgment with which members of the Committees are not comfortable, and on which they will seek to scrutinise us. I will come specifically to that in a moment, on the question of licences and revocations. Nevertheless, the debate needs to be purposeful. We seek to do our best to ensure that we are clear and open where we can be so, so that the Committees can do their job. That is an important point.

Let me turn to the key points raised, starting with the Arab spring. It is clear that those events—which raced in weeks and months from one end of the Mediterranean to the other and into the middle east—caught most, if not all, commentators by surprise. That series of events reinforced the need for a robust but transparent export licensing regime. This country has one of the most rigorous export control systems in the world, but that does not stop us from continually seeking improvements that can and should be made to the system.

I will come in a moment to the broader issue of the number and character of revocations raised by my right hon. Friend, and what that means about the judgments that Governments make. I will briefly turn to the statement made by the Foreign Secretary last week and then come to the wider issue about judgment and systems. On Thursday last week, the Foreign Secretary tabled a written ministerial statement, drawing on the evidence that we have been able to conclude from looking at the issue. That concluded there was no evidence of any misuse of controlled military goods, exported from the United Kingdom to the middle east or north African regions. However, we did identify areas that could be strengthened, in particular our ability to respond to rapidly changing situations.

There are three points to make in response to the contribution from the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins). We propose, first, a new mechanism to suspend licensing to countries experiencing a sudden change in circumstances, for example, due to an outbreak of conflict or political instability; secondly, a revised risk categorisation, which will enhance our assessment against all the export control criteria and provide for enhanced ministerial oversight; and thirdly, to continue to work to improve public information on defence and security exports, including enhanced transparency of routine export licensing decisions.

[Toby Perkins]

As I said previously, I think for six months’ work the statement is pretty light on detail. It refers to a mechanism to allow immediate licensing suspension. What is that mechanism? On each of the issues, we would agree with the general headline but we want to know what it actually means.

[Mr Prisk]

The first thing we had to do was analyse a live situation in a number of different countries, to ensure the analysis both in each country and across them was accurate. Given that even now—as we know in particular today—events are still happening in that part of the world, we need to ensure that we have that analysis right. With respect, that six-month period might appear longer than hon. Members might like, but as we are dealing with a live situation in a range of different countries, there will be common factors that we need to incorporate into the changes, but there will also be distinct issues in different countries. That is an important point to bear in mind.

We will shortly set out the implementation of the changes, so that we get the mechanisms right, and ensure that working across Government we will update the House on that in due course.

[Sir John Stanley]

Before the Minister leaves the issue of the revised risk categorisation, I want to put a key point to him. I understand that the Minister cannot speak for the revoked export licences that were granted by the previous Government. However, in the list of 158, there are quite a number granted by the current Government since they came into office. What is the degree of confidence among the Minister and his colleagues that, if the proposed revised risk categorisation had been in place before the Arab spring, none of those export licences, which were granted, would have been granted?

[Mr Prisk]

The intention is to ensure that no inappropriate grants are made. Can I be absolutely sure that a system we devise will preclude any decision made that in due course we look back on and decide to revoke? It is difficult to say I can absolutely guarantee that. The intention is to hone that risk assessment, that categorisation, so that it is more sensitive, and perhaps to understand the changed political dimension in those countries, and therefore the lessons we may see in other countries as well.

I am always wary of saying to the House, “Never again” or, “This will absolutely guarantee that what some people may categorise as misjudgments may be made in the future.” The intention, to which we will rightly be held to account by the House, is to ensure that we limit the opportunity for that kind of miscalculation.

[Bob Stewart]

I have been in a country, Bosnia, where there was an arms embargo. Under the new conditions, would it be possible, in addition to revoking a licence, to re-implement it, at least in part? I refer specifically to the fact that I watched the Bosnian Muslim army beaten unmercifully and brutally, with no means of proper defence. Its means of proper defence were denied, due to an international arms embargo, of which we were part.

[Mr Prisk]

That highlights the dangers and the challenges around policy and military issues, and the difficulty—with particular regard to the nature of warfare today, which my hon. and gallant Friend understands better than I, having served in our armed forces—of getting the judgment absolutely right. I suspect he is pointing to an area where, on reflection, the west would rather not have seen the outcomes it has. However, I do understand.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I commend the Minister for suspending the export licences to Bahrain earlier this year. The list of items suspended is very comprehensive. Most of the equipment suspended was anti-personnel or crowd-control equipment that is now being used by the Bahrain forces to deal with what they term dissident forces in the country. We have sold the same kind of equipment to most countries in the region. It is in all probability being used in Yemen, Saudi Arabia and other places. Does the Minister not think that the sale of equipment to regimes that do not allow normal political dissent and freedom of speech and assembly should be thought through a bit more? Should we not use those criteria first, rather than wait for an eruption?

[Mr Prisk]

I understand the point, though it is not only authoritarian regimes that act in a way we sometimes find unacceptable, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out earlier. That is the point of the new criteria: to look at how we better judge those risks in future and try to learn from decisions made in the past. In a sense, it comes to the broader issue of revocations raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling. I am grateful that he accepted that there are a substantial number of revocations. That is important for us to do. Some might argue that that is an indication of a greater number of previous errors. That is a judgment for others, not for me to concur with.

Although I do not concur with the view expressed about the appropriateness or otherwise of the Foreign Secretary’s statement, the point about the need for Government to think about both systems and judgments is perfectly reasonable. I suspect there will be times when we make judgments with which the Committee might not be comfortable. However, the need to have regard for both systems and judgments is understood, and I respect that point.

A number of hon. Members asked how licensing works. I welcome the remarks from different hon. Members that we have a strong defence industry, which is something to be welcomed, especially in difficult economic times. Although the defence industry in this country is sometimes controversial, it is vital to our manufacturing base. Defence exports help to maintain key engineering skills in the UK; indeed, some 300,000 people work in that sector, many of whom are skilled. I accept the matter raised by the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) and understand the point the hon. Member for Islington North was making. I do not necessarily share his full view about turning swords into ploughshares, but he makes a perfectly reasonable and respectable point that should be put on the record.

The defence industry is important, as the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Chesterfield also clearly believes. We need to ensure that we support skilled individuals in that industry. If I may stray an inch beyond the demarcation of the debate, I should also say that spreading our engineering and manufacturing base is a crucial challenge to us, which I am happy to take up and on which we have been working hard. The volume of licensing activity has increased significantly, which is partly because legitimate defence exporters have been getting their job right. At the same time, as was raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling, the Export Control Organisation has made considerable improvements in its efficiency. However, we are in a very tough public expenditure climate and efficiency savings can, of course, only take us so far.

Several right hon. and hon. Members raised the issue of charging. Let me make this point. Charging is an idea that we have explored with exporters, but only as part of the wider question of how we best reform the service to ensure we deliver the best kind of service without diminishing the quality of the controls that have been debated in this Chamber. What I would say is if and when—and I emphasise “if” and “when”—that subject becomes a formal Government proposal with a timetable, we will launch a full public consultation. However, I accept the point raised by my right hon. Friend about the need to ensure the consultation reflects the independence of the Export Control Organisation. That is a perfectly legitimate point to make and were we to go down that road, we would obviously wish to include that matter in the consultation, so that we can be satisfied that we have got the balance right. Again, that was a useful point raised in the debate.

We, as a Government, do not feel there needs to be a conflict between effective export controls and supporting a strong defence sector. As has been discussed, regulations that are timely and effective are of key importance to both the competitiveness of the UK industry and strong export controls. Since last year, we have sought to improve both how the regulations work and the processes. For example, the export control order was amended three times last year. An amending order came into force in August 2010 which, among other changes, added anti-vehicle landmines to category B of the trade controls, which means that trade in those items by UK persons anywhere in the world is subject to control.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Does that also include a universal jurisdiction application for any person who arrives in this country who has been trading in those illegal landmines? Would they be subject to the law of this country even though the offence had not been committed within UK jurisdiction?

[Mr Prisk]

The point is that putting those items into category B of the trade controls means that, wherever a person has traded in them, they are brought within category B and therefore within the controls that the hon. Gentleman has described.

The Committees’ report welcomes the fact that the Government are exploring ways to exercise effective control of brass-plate companies. We are considering a range of options, and most hon. Members understand that the issue is complex and challenging. The problem is how to ensure that any measure we take tackles overseas trade effectively—in other words, activity outside our own jurisdiction. There is a debate around whether pre-licensing registration for category C and other types of trade should operate. Our concern is whether, in fact, that would deter the sort of illegal arms trader we are talking about, because, for them, the revocation of registration would, frankly, not affect their trade or, indeed, their behaviour. We understand and are considering that issue, which is thorny and has vexed the minds of many Ministers before me. We will come back to the Committees in due course on that matter. I want to ensure that if we introduce a proposal, it will work in practice, rather than just announcing something that does not work. That is the challenge, and we are trying to get it right. However, I accept the Committees’ point on that.

I want to discuss one change to the export control order, because hon. Members have rightly raised the issue of lethal injection. On 30 November last year, as has been mentioned, we brought into force an order with regard to sodium thiopental in the United States. We took that action following reports that some states in the US were using it in the process of lethal injections. We then moved on to consider the other drugs that are used in lethal injections in some, although not many, US states. We consulted the industry, because the difficulty with some of those drugs is that they have a dual use that is perfectly legitimate and medicinal. Having done that, in April, we introduced a new order that imposed controls on potassium chloride, pancuronium bromide and sodium pentobarbital. In doing so, the Government are seeking to lead the way in introducing domestic controls in that area, and we are now pushing for action at an EU level. Those are important advances, because they demonstrate that the Government are willing to listen to concerns and respond where there is evidence to do so, applying controls that are proportionate to the risk in a way that does not unduly burden legitimate businesses.

I want to discuss two other points in that field: first, several hon. Members have mentioned expanded military end-use control; and, secondly, I want to address the question of torture end-use control. On expanded military end-use control, the Government have always made it clear that any changes should be adopted right across the EU not only to be fully effective, but in order not to disadvantage legitimate UK exporters. We expect to see a formal proposal by September 2012 and that the subsequent legislative process will continue into 2013. In the meantime, for the reasons that I have mentioned, we do not intend to take any action at a national level. That step forward from the Commission and the fact it has begun the preparation of the dual use regulation is encouraging. I hope that that is helpful to the Committees’ deliberations.

I shall also update hon. Members on the progress made with regard to torture end-use control, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Islington North. This country has the most rigorous controls on equipment identified as being used in torture, which are known as category A goods. In April this year, as we reported back to the Committee, I wrote to Baroness Ashton asking her to introduce controls on the export of drugs used in execution by lethal injection. I also asked her to consider a torture end-use control. I can tell hon. Members that she has replied and has confirmed that this autumn the Commission will begin the process of amending the annexes to the torture regulation to control execution drugs. I understand that a meeting has been proposed for sometime in November. Baroness Ashton has also advised us that, once the process is complete, the Commission will examine the scope of the regulation and, at that point, I will make further representations on the end-use control. If there are any further developments on that, I would be happy to write to the Chair, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling, to bring him and other Committee members up to speed. Although there was an initial delay from my original pressing of the Commission in April, the fact that we have now got a response is an encouraging step forward.

Several hon. Members have mentioned the effective operation of the Export Control Organisation. We have been seeking to improve that organisation. The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran mentioned the question of sales in that field and what that means for licensing numbers, as did the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Chesterfield. The number of applications received by ECO has increased from 12,729 standard individual export licence applications in 2008 to 16,477 last year. The truth is that that increase has meant that ECO has fallen slightly behind the target time for processing standard individual export licences, which is running at 64% being processed within 20 days—the target is 70%.

This year has been challenging. The events across north Africa and the middle east have created huge fluctuations in licence application flow and increased complexity in processing individual cases. It is still too early to know the full outcomes for the year, as we are only in October. However, it is expected that the performance we saw last year, just missing the 70% target, may well continue this year. I am monitoring and pursuing the matter, and I am aware that the staff have had to deal with a substantial change in events. Nevertheless, there is work to do.

While there has been some criticism from business, to which I am listening, there has also been some praise. For example, last year ECO won the “better regulation” category of the National Business Awards. The panel found that it was a great example of a public sector organisation applying the best commercial principles and systems to increase the service offering for its customers. The panel also said that ECO had demonstrated that it had substantially reduced the regulatory burden at every level without compromising national security. These have been a difficult couple of years for the staff, so I would like to put on record my thanks to them for having achieved this while having to deal with a reduction in resources.

On the operational issues that hon. Members have touched on, ECO has also responded to calls from former Committees in the field of operational questions. We amended the end-user undertaking for standard licences in July 2010 to make it clear that an export licence does not authorise re-export, and that the risk of unauthorised export is a factor in our licensing decisions. That is an important change. We have also taken positive steps to strengthen the service for legitimate exporting companies. For example, in June we launched two new advisory services, the control list classification advice service and the end-user advice service, as part of a more efficient way of dealing with things. Secondly, we continue to run what have proved to be successful training seminars. So far this year, 24 training courses have been delivered involving 627 delegates. We think that that will rise to 40 courses by the end of the year.

Hon. Members have raised the issue of enforcement. That is an important point, so let me touch on it briefly before I move on to some of the other topics, including the arms trade treaty. From August 2010 to September 2011, we sent 56 warning letters. We audited those letters three to six months later and found that in all cases the warning letter had led to a significant improvement in the exporter’s administrative processes. That is important, because Governments are often good at issuing notices, but not necessarily as good at following them up. It is therefore encouraging to see that good progress.

Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, the UK Border Agency and the Crown Prosecution Service continue actively to enforce UK export controls, as well as the United Nations, EU and Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe sanctions. Between April 2009 and March 2010—when I have the most up-to-date figures I will bring them forward, but these are the best we have at the moment—HMRC and UKBA made 134 seizures of unlicensed strategic exports at the UK border. During the same period, HMRC and the CPS worked together to prosecute successfully five significant cases of export control violations, including the illegal supply of military and radiation detection equipment to Iran.

The Bribery Act 2010 came into force on 1 July 2011. I will come to the issue of bribery and corruption in the arms trade treaty in a moment, but it is worth pointing out that, as a Government coming into challenging economic times, we nevertheless chose to proceed with the implementation of the 2010 Act. That was not always welcomed across business and industry, but the Ministry of Justice has rightly put in place sensible guidance to strike a balance between our economic needs and ensuring that we tackle corruption, whether committed at home or abroad. Therefore, I hope hon. Members recognise that, in the operation of our export controls, we are making important changes and are looking to strengthen how we operate. On that note, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran mentioned the issue of depleted uranium and whether our policy has changed. I can confirm to her that it has not changed, and I hope that that is helpful.

Several right hon. and hon. Members raised the issue of the arms trade treaty. I was interested to learn—I was not aware, specifically—of the Committees’ discussions with Ambassador Duncan. The diplomatic conference is due to take place in July 2012. The Government are working with key partners to use the remaining time that we have in the most effective way that we can. We want to ensure that we have the right level of resource. We have a cross-Whitehall team working on the treaty that includes not only my Department, but the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department for International Development and the Ministry of Defence. We continue to use the ATT in both bilateral and multilateral discussions with other states. We are working with civil society and industry partners who share our goals. We have also been able to support a number of ATT-related projects, including research on implementation issues, capacity building in developing states and engagement with key states.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling raised the question whether the Government are committed to the inclusion of corruption in the ATT. The answer is absolutely, and that is very much part of the discussions to which I have just referred. The hon. Member for Ilford South was concerned whether there has been any change in policy on Sri Lanka. The answer is no. I hope that that is crystal clear.

In conclusion, the Government believe that a competitive defence industry and effective export control need not be incompatible. The Committees have, understandably, raised a number of important issues and we take them seriously. We have sought to be as open and thorough as we can, and we are committed to responding to these issues. The debate has been a welcome opportunity to update hon. Members on issues that they have been able to raise, and on others which are pertinent to the questions before us. On that note, I draw my remarks to a close.

16:47

[Sir John Stanley]

In accordance with the usual conventions, I will make a brief winding-up speech. I am grateful to all the right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed. I am grateful to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) for her support for the Committees’ work. I endorse what she said about the need for the Government to continue to reply in sufficient detail to the Committees’ requests for information, and about the importance of the international arms trade treaty. As she knows, in recent years we have concluded a number of successful international agreements relating to specific weapons. We have had the cluster munitions convention and the anti-personnel landmines agreement, but I believe that this will be the first ever time when the international community has been able to enter into—we hope next year—a treaty covering the arms trade as a whole. That is an immensely significant event. We look forward to the British Government playing a prominent and proactive role in that negotiation.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) for his kind personal comments. He made a significant point about the discrepancy between the degree of information we receive, as the Committees on Arms Export Controls, on arms exports, and, as he illustrated extremely well, the almost nil information that he gets when we are looking at how the Government support security issues, including counter-narcotics overseas. That was a valuable and interesting point. I listened carefully to what he said about Colombia and counter-narcotics, and he rightly pointed out the Foreign Secretary’s written statement of 13 October, which said:

“The Government have also considered how we can strengthen our decision making when we provide security and justice assistance overseas.”—[Official Report, 13 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 42WS.]

How far that particular area falls within the purview of our Committees, I am not sure, but I will certainly take advice, and the hon. Gentleman made an important point. I also listened with great interest to what he said about human rights and arms export policy towards Sri Lanka, on which he has been most diligent, as a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee and of the Committees on Arms Export Controls. I am sure he will continue to pursue the matter.

I appreciated what the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) said about the contribution made by the Committees on Arms Export Controls. If there is a single person to whom the credit should go, I would give it to the late Robin Cook, who was the first Foreign Secretary to take the initiative and to submit to Parliament an annual report on arms exports. That was a major step forward in transparency and accountability. Once the Foreign Secretary had decided to do that, the House had to react by creating a satisfactory Committee structure to respond to that annual Government report. I am pleased to put on the record the tremendous contribution made by the late Robin Cook. That is how the Committees on Arms Export Controls started.

I am grateful for the support the hon. Gentleman gave to the Committees’ position on extraterritoriality, an issue to which I will return when I move on to the Minister’s wind-up. However, for many years now the Committees have been ahead of Government on policy in that area. We were ahead of the previous Labour Government, whom we brought along considerably in our wake. We now appear to be ahead of the new Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition Government, who, equally, we hope to bring along in our wake. In the Committees’ view, and most certainly in my view, the fundamental principle is that it is unacceptable for a British resident to be able to engage in arms transactions overseas that, if carried out in the UK, would be criminal offences. That is the position today; we do not consider that acceptable.

I welcome the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) to his first winding-up speech in his present position. I am glad that he shares my concern about the perception if the ECO is funded by the arms export industry. The issue is very important and we shall certainly be scrutinising it carefully when the Government’s proposals come forward, if they do so.

I am grateful to the Minister for his opening remarks, confirming what the Foreign Secretary has also assured us in several letters sent to me and, therefore, to the Committees: the Government’s policy is to be clear and open with the Committees, which is what we expect. I also welcome his response to my points about the critical value of judgments. I am glad that we agree that, when it comes to individual decisions on export licences, not only the system but the quality of the judgment is at issue. That is of the most profound importance.

The Minister referred to only two of the three areas on which we have so far not had a satisfactory reply—or even a reply—from the Government. He referred to brass-plate companies and to pre-licence registration of arms brokers, but not to extraterritoriality, so in conclusion I ask for what I consider essential: a ministerial written reply on those three areas of recommendation made in our original report, which we have not had to date. Please could we have that as soon as possible, and certainly before we start taking evidence again in a few weeks’ time?

Finally, a number of issues were raised to which the Minister has not been able to reply, but we understand that the subject is huge, covering a number of other Departments. I hope he will take particular note of my specific questions about our key final recommendation, which is that the Government ought to have extended their review of arms exports to north Africa and the middle east into a review of arms exports to authoritarian regimes worldwide. We are still awaiting a reply, and I have put to him the specific questions to which we wish to have the answers.

I thank all Members who have contributed to the debate, which has been extremely helpful. We look forward to an ongoing constructive dialogue with the Government.

Question put and agreed to.

16:55

Sitting adjourned.

Written Ministerial Statements

Thursday 20th October 2011 Written Statements

Thursday 20 October 2011

Abolition of Regional Strategies

Thursday 20th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill)]

As part of their stated commitment to protecting the environment, the Government decided to carry out environmental assessments of the revocation of each of the existing regional strategies, on a voluntary basis.

It is the Government’s clear policy intention to revoke existing regional strategies outside London, which impose housing targets on local communities and put pressure on councils to review the green belt in 30 towns across the country. But this is subject to the outcome of the environmental assessments and will not be undertaken until the Secretary of State and Parliament have had the opportunity to consider the findings of the assessments.

I wish to inform the House that the Government are undertaking public consultation on the environmental reports, copies of which have been placed in the Library of the House.

Renewables Obligation Banding Review

Thursday 20th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

I am today announcing the publication of the renewables obligation banding review. This consultation looks at the levels of support renewable technologies will receive under the renewables obligation from 2013 to 2017 (from 2014 for offshore wind).

We need a surge of investment in low-carbon energy sources to help get us off the fossil fuel price hook, keep the lights on, and keep bills down. The package proposed in the banding review will bring forward investment, securing the UK’s position as a global leader in the renewable energy sector, and supporting the transition to a green economy.

The UK has some of the renewable resources in the world, and the proposals in the consultation aim to make the most of those resources. The package of measures we propose will ensure we keep on track to meet our 2020 renewable energy target, in line with our vision for renewables published in July’s UK renewable energy road map.

At the same time, we are paying attention to consumer bills. It is vital that our support for renewable electricity both encourages investment and represents value for money for consumers. So the banding levels we are proposing will cost less than if we remained with the current levels of support, while delivering more renewable energy.

To do this, our proposals encourage the most efficient use of UK renewable resources. We are proposing to remove excess support from technologies that would be overcompensated by the current levels, and maximise deployment of the cheapest renewable technologies, such as energy from waste and co-firing.

For offshore wind, where the UK is the international market leader, we are working closely with the supply chain, developers and finance community to drive down costs by around 40% by 2020. As part of that trajectory, we are reducing support in this banding review by 5% in 2015, and another 5% in 2016, ensuring that consumers benefit from these cost reductions, and ensuring that we are able to maximise deployment of this key technology—providing the potential for a 18GW market by 2020.

We should not be supporting inefficient generation, and our proposed support for onshore wind will target only the most cost-effective onshore wind farm deployment, encouraging developers to build in places where the wind is strongest.

We support predictable and flexible biomass electricity generation. Our support focuses on cheaper and transitional biomass technologies by introducing new bands for biomass conversion and enhanced co-firing—making the most of our existing generation assets, and therefore reducing the cost to consumers. We are also maintaining current levels of support for dedicated new build biomass until 2016 in order to encourage shovel-ready projects to begin construction, securing significant investment and green jobs.

This consultation also reiterates the coalition’s agreement to promote marine technologies, recognising that marine energy has the potential to meet a large proportion of our electricity demand by 2050. Our proposals provide a clear signal that we want to see large-scale, commercial deployment of wave and tidal technologies in UK waters, cementing the UK’s position as the global leader in this technology.

Agriculture and Fisheries Council

Thursday 20th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)]

The next Agriculture and Fisheries Council is on Thursday 20 and Friday 21 October, in Luxembourg. I shall represent the UK on agriculture matters on Thursday, accompanied by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Minister with responsibility for agriculture and food. On Friday the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Minister with responsibility for natural environment and fisheries, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) will be representing the United Kingdom on the fisheries items. Richard Lochhead MSP, Michelle O’Neil MLA and Alun Davies AM will also attend.

Council will deal with agricultural business on the first day. It will open with a presentation by the Commission of the new proposals for CAP reform before member states are given the opportunity to give initial reactions during two full table rounds. The first table round will focus on the proposals for direct payments to farmers and rural development. The second table round will cover the more technical aspects of the common market organisation and control measures.

There are two other agriculture items on the main agenda. The first relates to distribution of food to the most deprived persons in the Union. This returns to Council after discussion in September, with a revised Commission proposal that now has a social policy as well as CAP legal base. The second item relates to the international wine organisation (OIV), that has its annual meeting later in October. The Commission wishes to lead for the EU in an area of exclusive competence and will propose a mandate for it to do so.

Finally, on agricultural issues, there is an AOB item on the welfare of laying hens. The EU agreed to phase out battery cages for hens for egg production some years ago and the deadline for implementation is the end of 2011. The Commission will present data on how far member states have progressed towards compliance.

The second day of Council will deal with the two fisheries items on the agenda. The first item relates to the seeking of agreement on allocation of fishing opportunities in the Baltic sea. The second item sees the opening of the EU/Norway annual consultations on fishing opportunities for 2012.

Afghanistan (Monthly Progress Report)

Thursday 20th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

I wish to inform the House that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development, is today publishing the 10th progress report on developments in Afghanistan.

Former President Rabbani’s death at the hands of a suicide bomber on 20 September has drawn worldwide condemnation. It is too early to draw definitive conclusions on the long-term effect his death will have on the peace process, but it may prove significant. Much will depend on his successor as chair of the High Peace Council and the continuing efforts of the Afghan Government to achieve national unity and a political solution to Afghanistan’s problems.

On 13 September, as part of their campaign to undermine the peace process, insurgents attacked the US embassy, the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) headquarters and an Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) base in Kabul. The attacks were not successful and neither the US embassy nor ISAF HQ perimeters were breached. Eleven civilians were tragically killed in the attacks. However the ANSF led an effective response: they successfully neutralised the threat and demonstrated a high degree of operational competence.

With UK support, the Government of Afghanistan continue to improve their delivery of basic services. The new national priority programme for local governance will help local government institutions deliver improved basic services to communities, while a UK-funded Afghan Government programme is bringing opportunities for licit livelihoods to more people. Both will help to reinforce successful security transition. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the Government of Afghanistan continue to work towards agreeing a new programme of support, and we are hopeful agreement will be reached this autumn, allowing the UK and the international community to resume routine funding to the Afghan Government.

The insurgency is resilient and, as demonstrated by the recent high profile attacks in Kabul, remains a threat. However, such incidents rarely achieve their tactical effect and are designed to create a perception of increased violence and instability that it is not reflective of the progress being made in much of the country. We should not allow these attacks to distort the many examples of significant security improvements or overshadow continued progress to governance and development objectives. There remain many challenges ahead but there is also much encouraging progress.

I am placing the report in the Library of the House. It will also be published on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website (www.fco.gov.uk).

Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland

Thursday 20th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)]

Schedule 1 to the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986 makes provision for the constitution of the four boundary commissions, including the Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland. Under paragraph 2 of schedule 1 to the Act, each commission must consist of a chairman, deputy chairman and two other members appointed by the Secretary of State. I have extended the appointment of Mr Richard Mackenzie as a member of the Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland until 30 September 2013.

Greater Anglia Rail Franchise

Thursday 20th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I can today announce that Abellio Greater Anglia Ltd has been awarded the Greater Anglia (Short) franchise.

The new franchise will begin operation on Sunday 5 February 2012. It will operate for 29 months (32 rail industry periods).

Bids were received from Abellio Greater Anglia Ltd (NV Nederlandse Spoorwegen), Eastern Railway Ltd (Go-Ahead Group Plc), and Stagecoach Anglia Trains Ltd (Stagecoach Group Plc).

Abellio Greater Anglia Ltd has been chosen to run trains on the network, which operates across Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk and Cambridgeshire. The franchise will also play a significant role in transport for the London 2012 games providing crucial services to the Olympic park area.

The terms of the contract the Government have agreed with the winning bidder will deliver a series of improvements for passengers during the 29-month franchise.

These include providing better station and ticket facilities and measures to improve passenger information. A text messaging service to keep passengers informed if service disruption occurs will be introduced. New information desks will be provided at major stations including London Liverpool street, Cambridge, Norwich, Ipswich and Stansted airport.

The new franchise will make it easier for passengers to buy tickets, including:

extending Oyster pay-as-you go between London Liverpool street and all stations to Shenfield, and stations to Hertford East;

improvements to ticket vending machines; and

introducing mobile phone and print-at-home ticketing facilities.

Abellio Greater Anglia Ltd has also committed to provide an additional 600 car park spaces (subject to planning approvals), more cycle storage facilities and deliver a number of other measures to improve the service to customers including deep cleaning of stations and trains.

The train company will take over station leases from Network Rail, taking on responsibility for all repairs and renewals at stations. This accords with the Government’s overall franchise reform programme which advocates transfer of more responsibility for stations to train operators as the passenger-facing side of the rail industry.

To date, only overall figures for the performance of the franchise as a whole have been published. From the start of the new franchise, Abellio Greater Anglia Ltd will start publishing a breakdown of punctuality figures by route giving passengers more transparency over the performance of the lines they use. The reliability requirements for the new franchise are also more demanding than the previous one.

When the franchise is renewed again in July 2014, the contract is expected to be 15 years in length. This forthcoming franchise will provide the opportunity to seek further improvements for passengers. We also intend to draw on the work of Sir Roy McNulty in setting the terms of the franchise with the aim of reducing costs and improving efficiency.

Grand Committee

Thursday 20th October 2011 Grand Committee

Thursday, 20 October 2011.

House of Lords

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Thursday, 20 October 2011.

11:00

Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester.

Police: Stop and Account

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Question

11:06

Asked By

[Lord Morris of Handsworth]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the conclusions in paragraph 18 of the recent report by the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination which criticise the decision by the Home Office to remove the national requirement of the police to record “stop and account” activity.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, the Government do not agree with the committee’s conclusions. Since 7 March 2011, police forces and authorities have been free to decide, in consultation with their local communities, whether to continue monitoring these encounters. These local decisions will ensure the right balance between the necessary paperwork that allows for appropriate public accountability and irrelevant bureaucracy.

[Lord Morris of Handsworth]

While I thank the Minister for his reply, he will be aware that the decision to record the ethnic composition of people subject to stop and search powers was a key recommendation of the Macpherson report following the murder of Stephen Lawrence. As reported, the requirements for recording these incidents have changed and each police service will now decide whether or not to record stop and account activities. Is the Minister aware that this decision will damage race and community relations and do nothing for police accountability? Further, can the Minister tell the House how the Government will meet the requirements of the UN committee for accurate information when the figures are no longer uniformly collected?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I recognise, as does the noble Lord, that we originally had recording of stop and account following the tragic circumstances relating to the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, but I believe that we have moved on and it is necessary to balance accountability and bureaucracy. It is also necessary to emphasise that there are real potential savings of some 800,000 police hours in not having to record these matters. This should be a matter for each local force and community and that is why, as the noble Lord will be aware, the Met is still recording these after consultation with local communities and the local police authority, whereas other areas do not feel this is necessary. The savings made are very real, and it is a question of getting the balance right.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that all research carried out since 1981 has demonstrated the adverse impact of stop and search on the black community, particularly young blacks? They are the largest group of people stopped and searched, and only about one in 10 searches ever results in some sort of criminal justice process. What system of monitoring will be established to ensure that the law-abiding black community has confidence in the police?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the first point to make is that both stop and search and stop and account are vital tools for the police in deterring crime and combating anti-social behaviour. It is also vital that they must be used as sensitively as possible, as the noble Lord implies in his question. With regards to monitoring, it is vital to get this right. That is why I am very keen to stress the balance between accountability and bureaucracy, given the potential savings to the police in not having to record stop and account and in allowing them to carry on their activities properly without excessive bureaucracy. The police will still record stop and search, but recording stop and account is a matter for local decision-making, and that is why the Met, for example, will continue to record stop and account.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, if the Minister looks at his notes, he will see that stop and search and the issue of ethnic monitoring goes back to at least 1981 following the Brixton riots. Does the Minister have any figures to show the proportion of young black people stopped and searched compared to white people, and if he has not got the figures, will he look them up? I suggest the ratio is between 6:1 and 8:1.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right to say that this goes back to 1981, but the recording of stop and account came after the Stephen Lawrence inquiry. This Question is directly related to the fact that we will no longer make it compulsory to record stop and account, which I have explained. I do not have at my fingertips the figures that the noble Lord seeks, but I shall write to the noble Lord and make sure that he has them.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

The Minister has not answered my noble friend’s original Question, which is how the Government intend to meet the requirement for information from the UN committee. The Minister says that this is about reducing bureaucracy, but does he not agree that this is another signal of the Government seeking to abdicate from responsibility for policing? Since the number of police officers is going down and crime is going up, it is easy to see why the Government want to abdicate their responsibilities.

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord is wrong and the UN committee is wrong. There is no need to record this activity, but we have left it open to local police forces to make the decision. There is a correct balance to be struck between accountability and bureaucracy. We do not want to overburden the police, as did the party opposite when it was in power, with excessive bureaucracy that prevents them doing the job that they are supposed to be doing.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the fleet off Cadiz some 206 years ago was completely blind to race, creed or anything like that. With the anniversary of Trafalgar coming up tomorrow, would the Minister be willing to pass the good wishes of our House to our rather battered fleet around the world and perhaps ask his colleague the Secretary of State for Defence to pass a signal to it by recognising that day?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I think that that matter is slightly beyond the Question on the Order Paper. The noble Lord mentioned that the fleet was blind to matters of race at that time; I think that the same was true of the fleet at the time of Trafalgar. We have only to look at the pictures by Daniel Maclise next door in the Royal Gallery to see that very fact. I thank the noble Lord for his intervention, even though it is not strictly relevant to the Question on the Order Paper.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, is it not important that the Government look again at this? I was standing in Oxford Street when the police were stopping and searching young people, and every single one searched was a young black man. This is totally to be deprecated. We must keep tabs on searches of this kind and who is being searched in this way.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, as I have made clear, stop and search will continue to be recorded. We are talking about stop and account, which we think is a matter for each individual police force to decide in consultation with their local community.

Universal Credit

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Question

11:14

Asked By

[Lord Touhig]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the proposed universal credit is included in the Treasury’s risk register of projects that are at risk of overspending, delay or failure.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, there is no specific Treasury risk register, although I know that the phrase has been used in a number of newspaper articles. The Treasury works closely with colleagues in the Cabinet Office’s Major Projects Authority to monitor the progress of major projects. The universal credit programme is on the Government’s major projects portfolio, which is a compilation of the Government’s high-risk and high-value projects. It covers approximately 200 major projects with a total value in excess of £300 billion. The Major Projects Authority has been engaged with the universal credit programme since 2010. As well as providing challenge through regular assurance reviews, it is involved at various levels of monitoring progress. The Major Projects Review Group, a body established by the previous Government in 2007, recently also considered progress with the universal credit programme.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer but I am a little surprised by it. To make universal credit work, the Government say that 80 per cent of all claims will need to be made online. At the moment, 31 per cent of the poorest families in this country have never used a computer and only 17 per cent of benefit claims are made online. On top of that, to make the IT system for the new universal credit work it will require every single employer in the United Kingdom to tell the Inland Revenue every single month how much every single employee earns in salary and pays in tax. As most government IT projects in recent times have failed, why does the Minister think that this one will succeed?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

There were several questions underneath what the noble Lord has just said. Twenty per cent of those who will come under the universal credit system are currently estimated to have access to computers. It is planned that 50 per cent should have access by 2013 and 80 per cent by 2017. I myself queried those figures when I was being briefed but I am told that of those currently claiming unemployment benefit, some 80 per cent have access to online facilities and of those claiming jobseeker’s allowance, some 60 per cent have access. I did not ask what the gender breakdown was; I suspect the answer is that more men than women have it but I remind everyone that the Government’s current digital champion, Martha Lane Fox, is working on this.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

How will people who are not computer literate and do not have computer access be able to get this information?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Government are also developing telephonic and face-to-face access. It is recognised that, even under the estimate that 80 per cent will have online access by 2017, there will remain 20 per cent who will require such telephone or face-to-face help—quite possibly, some of the older generation.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, it is important that the universal credit is a success. It is an important reform but there is a very high risk attached to it in delivering the IT infrastructure, because not only do you have to deliver three separate IT projects—one within DWP and two within HMRC—but they then have to integrate. It is a very high-risk timeline. Will the Minister reassure us that the high value that the Treasury places on this does not mean that it is blind to the risk in the timescale and that, if it needs to slow it down in order to make it a success, it will do so?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the careful mechanisms currently being put in place and operating recognise precisely that this is an extremely important programme, which is to be rolled out starting two years from now and running until 2017. I should add, as I was also asked about the novelty of some of these IT programmes, that the DWP is working to integrate roughly 60 per cent of existing IT infrastructure, which will be transferred to this programme. It is not an entirely novel programme: only 40 per cent of its IT will be novel.

[Lord German]

My Lords, following on from that answer, will my noble friend reassure the House that the DWP’s programme is being introduced in a gradualist way over a number of years? That will give some comfort, but what matters is getting the data into the DWP—the tube of data which comes from every company and through the HMRC. Will my noble friend also reassure the House that that tube will be open, finished and working on time, and that he will tell the House in advance if there was any danger regarding that?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am not entirely sure what an open tube looks like but the DWP is of course working closely with HMRC. As noble Lords are well aware, the integration of HMRC systems with those of the DWP is an important part of this programme. We are all conscious that previous programmes, particularly on tax credits, have run into a very considerable number of problems about both underpayment and overpayment, and about underclaiming. It is intended that one of the great benefits of the universal credit system will be that a much higher percentage of claimants will claim and receive their entitlements.

[Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top]

Will the Minister tell us whether the Government have published the consultants’ report on the feasibility of the IT project in the DWP and, if not, will they do so while the Committee is sitting in this House on the Bill?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, many noble Lords will be aware that the MPA starting gate report was passed to the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons and placed in the House of Commons Library. It was not specifically intended to be open for full publication, but one of the Members of the PAC passed it on to the Telegraph, which, I suspect, is part of the origin of this Question.

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, will my noble friend remind our noble friend the Minister in charge of the Bill, who is sitting next to him, that at Second Reading he promised four of us, two of whom have already asked questions, that he would give a presentation on the computer arrangements at some time in the reasonably near future?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My noble friend tells me that this will take place in early November and that he will give a date very shortly.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the Minister did not really answer the question from my noble friend Lady Armstrong of Hill Top. My noble friend asked whether the Committee would have access to the very important report from KPMG but the noble Lord did not answer that point.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness may not have been able to see, I can tell her that this is under active consideration among Ministers at this very moment.

Defra: Research and Development

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Question

11:22

Asked By

[Baroness Byford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have plans to encourage more research and development work in the areas of food, environment and rural affairs; and, if so, how.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, the Government continue to invest heavily in research and development in these areas through the research councils, the Technology Strategy Board, Defra and its network and other Government departments. Much of the investment is co-ordinated through large national and international partnerships and is currently supporting world-class basic and applied research to meet the challenge of increasing sustainable food production.

[Baroness Byford]

My Lords, in thanking the Minister for his response, I remind the House of my family’s farming interests. Given the excellent basic research to which the Minister referred, what are the Government doing to get this into practical use on farms?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, my noble friend will know that the Government have taken on board the findings of the Taylor review, which is a commitment of Defra’s business plan. As the Minister responsible for science and research in the department, I can assure her that the issue is high on the department’s agenda.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the most vital aspects of effective food production is the success of the honey-bee in this country? Does he agree that the honey-bee is currently under threat in a variety of ways, including from the Varroa mites, which may or may not cause colony collapse disorder, and, now we learn, from the probable arrival of the Asian hornet? Will he reassure the House that research funding into the survival of honey-bee colonies will be maintained and will he also stress, wherever possible, the importance of domestic bee-keeping—I speak as the mother and the daughter of domestic bee-keepers—particularly in cities and towns?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I assure the noble Baroness that this is high on the agenda. Indeed, as she probably knows, the Government are funding a pollinator programme—not just bees but other pollinating insects are vital for the biodiversity that we are seeking to maintain. I have seen for myself the work being done at FERA in York, where not only are the problems affecting bees being looked at, but we are very alert to the Asian hornet and the threat that that poses. I have personal acquaintance with such insects from when I occasionally visit France, so I know that they are a real threat to bee-keepers and honey production.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, my interests are already fully declared in your Lordships’ Register. Does the Minister agree that the number of farmers has declined sharply in recent years, particularly dairy producers? Is there not, therefore, a need for research on higher value crops to be made known to farmers? Perhaps some of these could replace some imports.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. I come from a horticultural background so am very much acquainted with the enormous potential for import substitution in these markets. I would like to think that the progress that is being made in yield increases from dairy cows is the sort of thing that we can see sustainably projected across the whole of agriculture. However, we need to be aware that it affects the number of viable herds in this country. That is one of the consequences of this investment in this area. However, the noble Lord is correct that giving farmers the knowledge to achieve these challenges is the most important thing.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer]

My Lords, Defra has to make some policy decisions shortly about grass-fed dairy herds as opposed to the environmental and welfare benefits of having intensive indoor dairies. It called for tender bids for research in this area, which resulted in,

“none of the bids fully meeting the Department’s thorough evidence requirements”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/10/11; col. 1399W.]

In that case, will Defra call for bids to be retendered or will it make policy in a vacuum?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

It is certainly not my intention to make policy in a vacuum. All policy decisions in Defra on the science front are based on evidence. That, indeed, is a principle which we apply to decision-making in general. I would like to reassure my noble friend on that point.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, given the Minister’s personal commitment and expertise in this area, I want to be helpful to him in pressing him on the issue. The Secretary of State Caroline Spelman signed up to the G20 communiqué on food security in Paris last June, which calls on countries to invest more in innovation in food science. On the one hand it appears that her department has plans to encourage more research and development, but at the same time she is cutting the overall research and development budget by 27 per cent. Why does Defra sign up to international commitments calling on action from other Governments which it has no intention of meeting in this country? Why is it saying one thing and doing another?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think the noble Lord is making the mistake of taking a particular aspect of Defra’s activity and not realising that, strategically, the Government have a great focus on the whole need to raise the game. We will need to double world food production by 2050. We shall be able to do that only with science as an ally. The thrust across government, and the whole thrust of the Taylor review, was about leveraging the Government’s investment as a whole in this area. We will be spending £1 billion on R&D in the Living with Environmental Change Partnership and £440 million on global food security.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, given the desperate need for better agricultural extension in the UK, does the Minister agree that this is as much about learning the lessons of environmental best practice—I refer particularly to soil degradation in this context—as it is about agricultural invention? If we wish the growth in the nation’s agricultural productivity to continue, we must better align environmental research with technical research and not treat them as two separate entities, as is currently the case.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, we must do that not only in this country but globally, because the problems of water and soil degradation are universal. We are mindful of this.

[Lord Dykes]

My Lords—

[Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior]

My Lords—

[Baroness Trumpington]

My Lords—

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby, has been trying to get in.

[Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior]

My Lords, in the promised development of agricultural research, especially in the field of livestock health, will the Minister pay attention to some of the more chronic diseases that are less spectacular than the ones we generally know about—such as foot rot in sheep, mastitis in dairy cattle and parasitism in all production animals?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing to the attention of the House the whole issue of animal health. My right honourable friend David Willetts is going down to Pirbright, where there has been considerable investment. These issues are indeed on the agenda.

Hereditary Peers

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Question

11:31

Asked By

[Lord Trefgarne]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following their announcement with regard to succession to the Crown, whether they have any plans to change the law of succession with regard to hereditary peerages.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, the Government have no current plans to change the laws of succession with regard to hereditary peerages. Changes to the law on succession to the throne can be affected without any change to the legitimate expectations of those in the line of succession. Changes to the rules governing succession to hereditary titles would be far more complicated to implement.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. I am anxious that he should dispel any uncertainty in this matter, which is unsettling for those who will be affected. I am grateful to him for what he has said.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I am not sure that I detected a question. The Government believe that it is time to deal with the issue of succession to the Crown, and there is no simple read-across to succession to the hereditary peerage, which is infinitely more complicated and affects many more families.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Lord said that it would be difficult to implement, but will he suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, that he perhaps should seek to amend the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Steel? On that matter, can he tell me whether tomorrow the Government intend to support the noble Lord, Lord Steel?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we will continue what successive Governments have done in the many debates on my noble friend’s Bill. There is one very good reason for being consistent, because there is before Parliament a draft Bill that is being examined by a Joint Committee of this House.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House agree that while undoubtedly Parliament has the authority to legislate in respect of succession to the throne, according to the learned editor of the fourth edition of volume 8 of Halsbury's Laws of England—which I checked an hour ago—at paragraph 35 and the footnotes thereto, two other powers are germane to the issue? One is the power of Parliament to elect a monarch—a power that has never been withdrawn. Secondly, of course, there are the common law principles of hereditary succession. When the Prime Minister wrote, under the Statute of Westminster 1931, to Commonwealth countries, consulting them on changes in relation to succession to the throne, did he point out this fascinating constitutional conundrum?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I rather wish I had checked, because if I had done so I would have had a far clearer answer to the noble Lord’s question. The noble Lord is of course entirely correct about the Statute of Westminster. As to the other parts of his research, perhaps I might have the opportunity of examining that outside the House.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, odd as it may sound, I congratulate the Government on their proposals to alter the arrangements for the succession to the Crown. The Leader of the House said there was no urgency in the matter, yet if a member of the Royal Family, such as Prince William, were to have a child in the near future, the issue would be affected by this. Will the noble Lord comment on this and accept that there is an urgency to get on with it?

[Lord Strathclyde]

No, My Lords, I did not say there was no urgency in this particular matter; but in the matter of hereditary Peers, which is entirely different. We accept that there is an opportunity here and, as the previous question demonstrated, any amendment to the line of succession involves consulting those member states of the Commonwealth in which the Queen is head of state under the Statute of Westminster. There would also need to be legislation. Next week, there is a meeting of the Commonwealth Heads of Government and in the margins of that we hope to make progress on this issue.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, in following up the question of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, and while undertaking further research, would my noble friend examine whether, if we elect the Monarch, we do so under a proportional system?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, without having to consult my colleagues, I am pretty clear that that would not be the case.

[Baroness Deech]

My Lords,—

[Lady Saltoun of Abernethy]

My Lords, I revert to the question of the succession of peerages. Will the Government please keep it in mind that, where there is already a male heir who has older sisters, a change in the law of succession to the eldest daughter could be damaging to relationships in the family?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, is of course the only example in this House of a hereditary Peer who has inherited as a female. Many of us regard it as a good thing that the noble Lady is here. She is right in saying that if there were a more general change to the peerage, this would affect very many families and other people. The Monarchy is the highest office in the land in which we all have a major interest.

Business of the House

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Timing of Debates

11:37

Moved By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the debate on the Motion in the name of Lord Blencathra set down for today shall be limited to one and a half hours and that in the name of Lord Luke to three and a half hours.

Motion agreed.

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Second Agreement amending the Cotonou Agreement) Order 2011

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Motion to Approve

11:37

Moved By

[Baroness Northover]

That the draft order laid before the House on 19 July be approved.

Relevant document: 28th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 17 October.

Motion agreed.

Incidental Flooding and Coastal Erosion (England) Order 2011

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Motion to Approve

11:38

Moved By

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the draft order laid before the House on 5 September be approved.

Relevant document: 28th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 17 October.

Motion agreed.

Crime: Home Protection

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Debate

23:38

Moved By

[Lord Blencathra]

To call attention to the protection of home and person from intrusion or assault; and to move for papers.

[Lord Blencathra]

My Lords, in introducing this debate I am conscious that there are many deeply held views on these subjects and a great deal of misinformation in the media but nevertheless I believe that the balance of our laws is wrong because the law is, in my opinion, built on a nonsense. It is built on the concept that a person awoken from sleep at 3 o’clock in the morning and fearing for his or her life will be able to exercise a judgment on using reasonable force in a moment of sheer panic, when lawyers in a cosy courtroom many months later have difficulty in ascertaining, with all the time in the world, what is “reasonable”. To expect a householder at that moment to be awake and lucid enough and in complete command of his or her faculties, in my opinion, is wrong and unjust.

The CPS guidelines state:

“Anyone can use reasonable force to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an arrest or to prevent crime. You are not expected to make fine judgments over the level of force you use in the heat of the moment”.

This year the CPS in Manchester, in the north-west, decided not to prosecute three householders who killed burglars while struggling with them and fighting to protect their homes and family. That was the right decision, but it was taken a month after the householders had been arrested. People who thought that they were going to be murdered in their own homes and fought back should not then be put in fear of being prosecuted, and left hanging for such a long time.

We should not have to decide whether the force was reasonable, but assume as a starting point, in my judgment, that any force used by a householder against an intruder is legal and appropriate. The message must go out to the police and public that householders have an absolute right to protect themselves, their family and home from intruders and that intruders leave all their rights behind the moment they climb through the window.

If the concept of “reasonable” cannot be removed, we must have a completely different understanding of what “reasonable” is at three o'clock in the morning. Envisage the situation where a person, believing that he or she is safe and secure at home, wakes up to find an intruder in the room. It must be one of the most terrifying things imaginable. I suggest that their reactions in all cases will be instinctive. It will be Pavlovian. It will not be reasoned. It may be to lie quivering in terror, to scream the place down or to retaliate and attack. I suggest that one of those reactions will come automatically; not as a process of reasoned thought. The innocent householder who instinctively lashes out at the intruder will be judged on the amount of force he used and whether it was reasonable in the circumstances. That puts an unfair burden on the innocent householder.

A few weeks ago, 140 service men and women received awards, among them 16 Military Crosses. When you read the citations you see that we still produce young men and women of mind-boggling selflessness and courage, but in all cases, what they did was illogical, irrational, and clearly not what a reasonable person would do if they thought about it. They did not think about it, they just reacted instantly, spontaneously, to save the lives of their comrades. That sheer selfless courage has been rightly recognised. Nor were they doing what they were trained to do. The infantry manual does not state that when you come under heavy machine-gun fire, you single-handedly charge the enemy, firing your weapon, lobbing every hand grenade you can get your hand on and take out the enemy position while receiving wounds in your legs and gut, but that is what those lads who won the Military Cross a few weeks ago did—instinctively, when surprised and taken by shock by the enemy.

I therefore suggest that a householder similarly suddenly confronted by a potentially life-threatening situation should be permitted to use all the force he is capable of to deal with that situation and should not be at risk of prosecution afterwards. I would also like assurances from my noble friend that a householder will have a complete defence even if he could have locked himself in a safe part of the building. The fact that one could theoretically retreat to a safe room must not be used as an excuse by the CPS to prosecute the householder who decides to stand and fight. I appeal to my noble friend to demand of the CPS that it comes to decisions in these matters much more speedily. Where there is a clear-cut case of genuine defence in one's home, the householder must be cleared with all possible speed. It is unjust to leave them waiting.

The most fraught area is when to stop defending oneself and one's property, especially if one chases the intruders from the home. I say “property” because the defence of oneself and one's home should extend to the defence of one's property in one's home. On when to stop defending oneself, the CPS guidelines state:

“The situation is different as you are no longer acting in self-defence and so the same degree of force may not be reasonable”.

The trouble is that the CPS often does not follow its own guidelines. The scandalous treatment last year of Omari Roberts is a case in point. He was a young apprentice builder with a perfectly clean record who came to his mother's house for lunch and found it being ransacked by two teenage thugs. In the struggle which followed, one burglar was stabbed and died. Omari was charged with murder based on a pack of lies told by the other burglar, who survived, who claimed that Omari chased him down the street. However, on the day that the case came to trial, the CPS dropped the charges as its key witness had by now forgotten his original pack of lies and had invented a completely new set. The CPS dropped the case not because it realised that it was acting entirely contrary to its own guidelines, not because it realised that Omari acted lawfully, but because it thought that it just might not win and that a jury would be 12 times more sensible than it was.

The surviving burglar’s original statement said that Omari chased him down the street, and this is the bit that the CPS used to bring a charge of murder against Omari. The CPS said that the time spent chasing the boy could have been used to summon the police. But hang on. The boy he allegedly chased and attacked lived. The boy Omari killed never left the house. So how can the chasing of the second boy result in a murder charge?

The biggest problem with this case is that the CPS’s entire argument revolved round a teenage burglar’s testimony, a teenage burglar with an ASBO and a number of previous convictions. Why is a burglar’s testimony given more consideration by the CPS than the victim’s statement? So although the guidelines are okay as they stand, it is sometimes, and often, the wrong-headed, misguided prosecution by the CPS of people like Omari which does tremendous damage not just to this innocent victim, but it sends a signal that the law is on the side of the thug and the burglar. That is where the damage rests.

This idea that there is a fine cut-off point when there is a threat and force is permissible, and then the second the threat is over force is not permissible, is also wrong. For some householders who instinctively fight back that adrenaline rush may last 30 seconds, for some it may last two minutes, for others it may last 20 minutes. It will be different for everybody and reason just does not come into it. If a householder continues his retaliation on the intruder even after the threat is theoretically over, he should not be prosecuted provided it was all part of that same psyched-up adrenaline rush that gave him the courage to fight back in the first place. I suggest that that is entirely different from a scenario where the householder has calmed down and half an hour later or the next day he decides to get revenge and go and beat up the burglar. That is not acceptable.

Let me quote one very sensitive example. Six years ago a highly trained, armed police officer was told that a person was wired up with a bomb and that innocent civilians were at risk and he could use lethal force. Leaving aside the incompetence of the command and control procedures of that operation, I have every sympathy for the officer who had to execute that order. Time was critical. He had to act fast. If the bomb was detonated, dozens would die. That officer psyched himself up to neutralise the problem and when he pounced on Mr de Menezes, he shot him in the head and again and again and again and again and again and again. Rightly he was not charged with any offence or disciplined because there was recognition that at times of severe stress a person taking action, even a highly trained officer, will go on taking that action long after the threat may be over because there is no rational or reasoned cut-off point when one is acting under extreme stress. I believe that the law must recognise that householders should not be expected to make rational judgments about when they should stop defending themselves by attacking the intruder when they are caught up in what is an entirely irrational situation in the first place.

I turn now to the protection of one’s home from theft. The time is long overdue when this should be made a criminal offence enforced by vigorous police action. Why is this most serious of thefts still a civil matter? If I steal the smallest item from a shop, it is a crime. I might not be prosecuted and I may get a slap on the wrist but it is a crime. If I think the restaurant meal was appalling, why should my dispute with the chef not just be a civil matter? It is not; it is a crime if I make off without paying for it. But if I come home from holiday and find that my house has been stolen from me, the criminal law does not care. The police do not want to know and I will have to spend months in the civil court system trying to get my property back. The people illegally occupying my house, of course, will get legal aid because they have no assets or property except my house. I will not get legal aid since I own a home which I cannot occupy and it will be a wrecked mess when I do get it back. The most valuable physical possession one has, apart from one’s health, is one’s home and it must be a criminal offence for anyone to misappropriate it.

It should apply to council housing and business property, too. If a council is failing to rent property quickly enough, the solution is for the Government to penalise the council. Occupation by squatters inevitably delays the day when that home is available for someone to legitimately rent. Of course, the police must not go around looking for people to evict. They should act only on a complaint from a property owner or tenant. If a person goes to the police and says that their property has been taken over, and produces prima facie evidence of their ownership—their name on the electoral roll or on a council tax demand—the police must be under an obligation to take recovery action immediately. That means evicting and arresting the squatters that day, with no right of appeal or judicial review at that time to delay the process.

If the Government go down this route—I hope that they do—and make this a criminal offence, I hope that the message will be clearly understood by chief constables that the main remedy Parliament wants is the immediate return of property to the lawful owner. In order to safeguard against suggestions that an unscrupulous landlord would lie to the police to get them to evict a tenant he did not like, we could build in a safeguard procedure: for example, that everyone calling for police assistance should sign a declaration stating that they are the legal owner or occupier. The penalty for a wrongful claim could be a £10,000 fine and two years’ imprisonment; or, for a landlord trying to get rid of a tenant, a £50,000 fine and five years’ imprisonment. That would stop any abuse of the system and reassure the civil liberties lobby.

The law should apply also to all commercial property, where legitimate owners at the moment are losing millions to illegal squatting. However, if noble Lords think that this is a bridge too far today, let us change the law as soon as possible on domestic premises being squatted and review the situation after a year. If we find that there is no abuse of the system, I suggest that the Government should push on with extending the criminal law to commercial property. The principle is the same: illegal occupiers of commercial property are no more moral than those who steal domestic property.

In both these situations, I have described how we need to change the law not just to correct injustices but to send a clear signal that it is instantly on the side of the law-abiding, the innocent, the decent, the righteous and those who fight back. I mean instantly—not months later when the CPS drops the charges; not years later when the Court of Appeal reduces the sentence; and not months later when a civil court might give you your property back.

In this, as in many things, perception is everything. There are lawyers who will say, understandably, that the law of self-defence is reasonable when applied by an intelligent court; but that is not the perception in the minds of innocent householders. That perception can be radically changed by small changes in the law, and I look forward to my noble friend telling me that he will bring in some of those changes instantly, and others in due course.

11:53

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, the House will be most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, for introducing this important subject. It was considered by the Law Commission in 2005, which stated in paragraph 4.19 of its report, headed “The threatened householder”, that,

“there is a strongly held view among many members of the public that the law is wrongly balanced as between householders and intruders. We think that much of that public anxiety is based on a misunderstanding of the present state of the law, contributed to by incomplete understanding of certain notorious cases”.

That is where we start in a consideration of this important question.

What is the law? I went back to the common law as enunciated by Blackstone in his Commentaries on the Laws of England in 1761. On self-defence, he stated:

“The defence of one’s self, or the mutual and reciprocal defence of such as stand in the relations of husband and wife, parent and child, master and servant. In these cases, if the party himself, or any of these his relations, be forcibly attacked in his person or property, it is lawful for him to repel force by force; and the breach of the peace which happens, is chargeable upon him only who began the affray. For the law, in this case, respects the passions of the human mind; and, when external violence is offered to a man himself, or those to whom he bears a near connection, makes it lawful in him to do himself that immediate justice, to which he is prompted by nature, and which no prudential motives are strong enough to restrain. It considers that the future process of law is by no means an adequate remedy for injuries accompanied with force”—

that is the future process, the point made by the noble Lord a moment ago—

“since it is impossible to say to what wanton lengths of rapine or cruelty outrages of this sort might be carried unless it were permitted a man immediately to oppose one violence with another. Self-defence therefore as it is justly called the primary law of nature, so it is not, neither can it be in fact, taken away by the law of society. In the English law particularly it is held an excuse for breaches of the peace, nay, even for homicide itself: but care must be taken that the resistance does not exceed the bounds of mere defence and prevention; for then the defender would himself become an aggressor”.

That is almost the speech that the noble Lord has made this morning. It also happens to be the law of this country, dating back 250 years.

Of course, the matter has not been left there. It was considered again in 1879 under the chairmanship of Lord Blackburn. I will not weary your Lordships with a quote from that but it was to the same effect. Most recently, in the Court of Appeal in October last year, Lord Justice Hughes set out the very long established law, which has two or sometimes three stages into any inquiry into self-defence. First:

“If there is a dispute about what happened to cause the defendant to use the violence that he did, and there usually is such a dispute, then the jury must decide it, attending of course to the onus and standard of proof”.

Secondly:

“If the defendant claims that he thought that something was happening which the jury may find was not happening, then the second question which arises is what did the defendant genuinely believe was happening to cause him to use the violence that he did? That question does not arise in every case”.

In other words, the court will look at the honest belief of the defendant as to what he thought was happening. Thirdly:

“Once it has thus been decided on what factual basis the defendant's actions are to be judged, either because they are the things that actually happened and he knew them or because he genuinely believed in them even if they did not occur, then the remaining and critical question for the jury is: was his response reasonable, or proportionate?”.

That is a statement of the law made very recently.

Let me give your Lordships some examples from my own experience to indicate how the law has operated. I can go back to the 1970s, to a case where the defendant was a former military man in his 40s, who had retired from the Army—he was a warrant officer—to look after his sick father. In those days people wore their hair long—perhaps some of your Lordships wore your hair long in those days—but he of course had a short back and sides and he became a butt of the community. One day when he was looking after his father in the bedroom of a council house, a youth came up the path and threw a brick through the fanlight above the door, whereupon the defendant took a .22 rifle and from the bedroom window shot him through the head and killed him. The defence was defence of property—he was in no personal danger in the bedroom with his sick father. The jury considered all the circumstances, as the jury is bound to do, and acquitted him. He was not guilty of murder, he was not guilty of manslaughter; he walked free.

Another case I recall from the Midlands was when a person, again in his home, heard a noise outside and discovered that some drunken passing youths had turned his car upside down on the drive. He went outside and remonstrated with them. They started to shout and hurl abuse at him. He went back inside and picked up a knife. When he came out, the youths were picking fence staves up in order to attack him. They attacked him and he stabbed one of them with the knife. The jury heard all the circumstances. He was defending himself and his home. Again, the jury acquitted him. All together he was found not guilty of murder.

These cases are from my own experience but they are happening all the time. A third, more recent, case is from Trinidad. A police officer, surrounded by a crowd of youths at a music festival, felt that he was being attacked. It was his defence that one of the people attacking him had produced a knife. He produced his revolver and shot two people, one of whom he killed. In that case, a trained officer used a gun against someone whom he believed to have a knife in those circumstances. Unhappily, his counsel in Trinidad decided not to run the defence of provocation but to rely entirely on self-defence. The jury convicted the police officer of murder. In the Privy Council, it was pointed out that certainly the crowd around him and shouting at him were provoking. The case went back to Trinidad and, on a retrial, he was convicted of manslaughter on the grounds of provocation.

My point is that the facts can be completely different and the surrounding circumstances are completely different in every case. If, for example, a burglar is in the bedroom and my wife is on her own, and she uses excessive force by, let us say, shooting—not that she has a revolver, I have to say—and kills the person concerned, that is a very different situation than if I were there and in a position to deal with someone of a reasonable size in order to defend myself and my property in that way. The circumstances cannot be categorised in any particular way.

In 2005, there was an attempt to introduce a Bill—the Criminal Law (Amendment) (Household Protection) Bill—to amend the law. It was introduced by Mr Patrick Mercer, supported by Mr David Davis and various others, in the House of Commons. It wished to replace the term “reasonable force”, whether the jury were considering the force used in defence was reasonable, with the term “grossly disproportionate”. The Bill did not get very far and one only has to stop and think: a jury is considering a whole series of facts around a killing; it considers that the defendant has acted unreasonably, but has he acted “grossly disproportionately”? You can imagine a debate taking place in a jury room to decide on the difference between being unreasonable, acting beyond reason, and acting with gross disproportionality. That sort of debate should not be left to juries, which approach these matters in a completely common-sense way, having regard to all the facts and circumstances put before them. While I sympathise to a certain extent with those concerned with some cases that come before the courts which seem to be grossly unfair, the law covers the situation and has done so since 1761 and before that time.

What concerns me is the concept that the decision as to what was reasonable should be taken by the police—that a householder should never be arrested and questioned if he has killed someone who has been an intruder. That cannot be right. The death of a person is extremely important and, whatever he may or may not have done, it is right that he should be arrested and that he should be questioned. If he has genuinely been acting in fear and in self-defence, undoubtedly he will give his view and his account of what happened at that point, a circumstance which the jury will no doubt take into account.

A person who has killed somebody, whatever the circumstances, is liable to arrest and questioning and, if necessary, detention until the whole matter can be sorted out. It is right that the decision should not be taken by the police and not even by the Director of Public Prosecutions, to whom the file is sent. It is for 12 people drawn from all parts of the community who should have put before them on the evidence all the circumstances and who should decide, using their common sense, which they undoubtedly have, whether that person was acting unreasonably when he killed the deceased.

The problem is that Parliament has sometimes, and certainly over the past 13 years, failed to recognise the absolute value of having people from the community decide issues like this and has tried in various ways to put boundaries around the thinking of a jury, which is entirely inappropriate. Self-defence, that firm principle embedded in our common law going back centuries, is a matter for the jury to determine. Do not let us ever get away from that.

12:07

[Lord Selsdon]

My Lords, one of the great privileges of being in your Lordships’ House is the free advice you get from time to time. I am most grateful to my noble friends Lord Blencathra and—I can now call him my noble friend—Lord Thomas of Gresford, because it makes me feel as if I am some form of pacifist. I suffer from a temper which very seldom rises but, if anyone did come into my house and threaten me, being in the agricultural sector I naturally have a pickaxe handle and a very large knife for pruning the vines; I can throw it into a dart board and get a double top. I also did a bit of unarmed combat; I spent time sharpening the back of my hand so that I could slash it across someone’s throat.

My intervention today, however, is entirely one of pacifism. I am going to concentrate on intrusion—“an Englishman’s home is his castle”, or matters of that sort. I will refer to a Private Member’s Bill that I got through the House some years ago. To begin with, I would like to take as my text the words of Patricia Hewitt when she was head of Liberty. She pointed out that people should not be allowed to go into a person’s home without permission.

When I was in the banking world we became very concerned about fraud. I was in the Midland Bank, which was the largest bank in the world—and the world’s largest bureaucracy. It was the same size as the British Navy. We had a rule of duty of care to our customers—although I was on the merchant banking side and we called them clients. We had a duty of care to look after their money. We were therefore concerned when it became apparent that officials could go into people’s homes without permission and without a court order and search and seize papers, including financial papers. I am not just speaking about the dreaded Revenue or the receiver of rates or the bee inspector.

This was a fear, so we set out to ask Government, as any good bureaucracy would, whether they could do something about it. We did a lot of research and found out in those days that there were innumerable Acts of Parliament and secondary legislation that enabled people to invade someone’s property without permission or without a court order. The answer was to turn to Parliament. I was a relatively young Peer—I came here in 1963—and in 1976 we started to ask the Government questions. Which department had what authority to do what, when and where? The answers did not come back. We asked again and again. Finally, many years later, I asked a Parliamentary Question about which powers a Minister’s department had to enter a property and search and seize. Each ministry wrote back to say that the information was not centrally available. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, who was pretty important, wrote to say that the information would be too expensive to obtain.

As noble Lords know, in your Lordships’ House a Question is deemed too expensive to answer if doing so would cost more than £800. However, into the breach came the noble Lord, Lord Bach. As he will remember well, on 9 December 2005 I asked him a Question about what powers Defra had to go on to land to search and seize. He wrote back an extremely nice letter, which said that the main source of information was very difficult to find but that there was a book in the Library called The Law of Entry, Search and Seizure by a professor from Lincoln University. What the noble Lord did not know was that I had arranged for that book to be placed in the Library; we told his officials that this was the answer that should be given.

Over several years I introduced a Bill to say that people should not be allowed to go into people’s houses or search their property without permission or a court order. I got the support of the officials. The noble Lord, Lord West—I call him the noble and gallant Lord but Hansard strikes that out because “gallant” is not strictly correct—went slightly against the grain so we agreed to co-operate with his officials and formed a joint public-private sector Bill team. After a period of considerable research with the Home Office, which was very helpful, we found 1,200 powers of entry, which are now drawn up into the freedoms Bill.

At first, I managed to get my Bill half way through the House. It went through on the second attempt. It should have done a lot of work for the Government but, of course, the Government are never grateful in these areas of activity. Some of the stories that we heard were fascinating. Stuck in the back of my mind is who is allowed to do what, when and where. The important thing about the Bill was that it said that you cannot go into property or a house without permission or a court order. That was exactly what Patricia Hewitt had originally said in her paper in the 1970s. The question is: how do we proceed from here? I hope that the Government will be prepared to introduce these rules and regulations and make them clear to people.

There are other areas in this matter. What is reasonable force and what is intrusion? The noble Lord, Lord Bach, pointed out in his reply to me that you could use reasonable force to enter or search a property. To me, intrusion—if I may take the word from the title of my noble friend’s debate—is the invasion of privacy, but it can be all sorts of things. It can be surveillance. Therefore, I added questions about television cameras. We got the answer that there were 42,000 CCTV cameras in the United Kingdom. I wanted to know whether it was an invasion of privacy if people had a private camera, maybe for security purposes, that could survey someone else’s property. It was pointed out that a gentleman could be seen leaving a property where there was a lady to whom he was not married. In that case, could the pictures suitably be used if there were to be some form of divorce case or matters of that sort?

We all know that there are many such cameras. I asked the noble and learned Baroness who authorised the private cameras. She said that they must be registered with the Information Commissioner. Therefore, we asked the Information Commissioner a private question about how many privately-owned CCTV cameras there were. He said that there were none at that time. In replying to this debate, could the Minister tell us how many surveillance mechanisms there are? That is one form of intrusion.

Another form of intrusion takes me back to my youth. As a small boy I always went to welcome the postman and undo the catch on the gate, and on the gate was written, “No Hawkers or Circulars”. To me, a circular which is shoved through one’s letterbox is an invasion of privacy or is intrusive. Direct selling is similar. If you have an ex-directory telephone line to protect yourself, before you know it you will be receiving phone calls from call centres that dial one number after another. Or, if you wish to make a transfer of money from a bank account, before you know it someone will ring you and say, “Who are you? We wish to test you”. The transfer might be for small amounts, and you say, “Why should I tell you who I am? Who are you?”. You then find that the call centre is located in Calcutta—where I have been on many occasions—so you ask the young girl at the end of the line, “Could you please tell me the name of the club that plays rugby and cricket?”. She replies, “Oh, the Ballygunge Cricket Club”. You then ask, “What is the name of the Writers’ Building, where the head man lives?”, and then you ask for her name. You find that the name she gives is not her real name; it is Elspeth, or whatever. In order that girls should not be courted on the telephone, I suppose, they have odd names. To me, it is an intrusive matter when your financial details are raised and mentioned overseas. I am concerned about the term “intrusion.”

When one comes to other issues, people can become violent. We now have 120,000 Acts of Parliament, published and available on the net. We need, perhaps with various local advice bodies, to provide some advice for people as to who they can stop coming into their houses. When certain clever fraudsters pretend they are from a particular ministry or department, people may open the door. Once the foot is in the door and where a woman is on her own, the quick ransacking of odd equipment, often televisions, is possible. I have a certain anxiety about this and would like to know what the Government plan to do with the freedoms Bill. All this brings with it other international things under EU law.

In our peasant farm in France where we were for the fin des vendanges two weeks ago we experienced a real invasion of privacy. It was very frightening and extraordinarily aggressive, but at two o’clock in the morning, with two shots, it was put down. It was a 136-kilogram wild boar. That is twice the weight of my noble friend who introduced this debate. So in some rural areas it is apparent that people may often defend themselves against certain predators with weapons. To me, an intruder is also a predator.

In my deliverance today I am saying that it would be extremely helpful if citizens knew who could enter their property without either permission or a court order. That would provide a certain degree of security. My noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford has given me tremendous comfort, because I shall have no problem at all putting my defence weapons on the wall rather than under the bed. Sometimes the weapon was deemed to be a baseball bat, because that was considered not be an aggressive weapon. Having played baseball, I know that it can be. I sit down with great gratitude to my noble friend Lord Blencathra for what he has done today. I had not realised it was going to be such an aggressive Motion; I was on the peaceful side of wanting to know who could enter one’s home, when, where and how.

12:19

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I thank and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, on initiating this debate. He was much admired as a Member of another place for many years and is likewise already much admired in this House; not least, his speech is good evidence as to why. He spoke with great passion and clarity. I look forward very much to the Minister’s reply and will listen carefully to see what he will reveal about the Government’s intentions in this area. Those intentions have been, if I may say so, skilfully kept under wraps since the speech of his right honourable and learned friend the Lord Chancellor at the Second Reading of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill last June in another place. So we look forward to hearing what the Government propose when the Bill is considered on Report in another place in the next few days.

I want to thank the other noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, gave us a masterly overview of the state of the law as it has been and still is today, and the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, reminded us of the hard work he has done in order to gain information about entry into property. Both noble Lords are among the finest storytellers in the House. We enjoyed the stories of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, about his earlier cases, and the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, as always, about his experiences.

Our position as the Opposition remains very much what our position was in government, and I shall refer, if I may, to an Oral Question in this House on 25 February 2010. I was sitting in exactly the position that the Minister is sitting in today and I was asked by my noble friend Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate whether we planned to change the law following recent cases. We said then that we,

“strongly support the rights of members of the public to defend themselves, others and their property with reasonable force. Under the law as it stands, a person is entitled to use reasonable force in self-defence to protect another person or property, to prevent crime or to assist in the lawful arrest of a criminal. The Government—

the Labour Government—

“have no plans to change the law on self-defence. The law is already in the right place and is working well”.—[Official Report, 25/2/10; col. 1086.]

We stand by that position because the law in the field of self-defence does work. As the Minister’s noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, said in the same exchange:

“Does he agree that the exercise of prosecutorial discretion and the good sense of the jury is a real protection for individuals in these cases?—[Official Report, 25/2/10; col. 1087.]

Of course the answer to that is: yes, it is. I would argue that prosecutorial discretion is widely and sensibly used in these cases. In our view, the CPS guidelines referred to by the noble Lord who introduced the debate are clear, straightforward and, following the phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, full of common sense.

According to the excellent House of Commons note that has been produced on this issue entitled, Householders and the Law of Self Defence:

“An informal trawl by the CPS suggested that between 1990 and 2005 there were only 11 prosecutions of people who had used force against intruders into houses, commercial premises or private land. Only seven of those … resulted from domestic burglaries”.

It is not claimed that that is the exact figure, but that is what the trawl found, and indeed I suspect that the figure is actually a bit larger because I do not think it includes a case in which I appeared for the defence, which I promise noble Lords I am not going to tell them about now—I saw the Minister worrying about that. But I do not think it is included because it was not a homicide case—it concerned causing grievous bodily harm. Surely this proves how seriously the Crown Prosecution has taken its responsibility over the years in not prosecuting when it would be wrong to do so. There is a second safeguard—the double lock that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, pressed on us—that the juries who hear these cases use their common sense, which is at the very heart of the reasonableness test, and invariably get their decisions right in these cases.

There is a very strong consensus—and noble Lords will have their own opinion whether it is a right consensus or a wrong one—that all those concerned with the administration of justice, be they judges, advocates, barristers or solicitors, or those who study these matters in detail, believe in essence that the law as it stands works and should not be tampered with. The Judicial Studies Board document of March 2010 sets out the law in order to assist judges in self-defence cases, both generally and in burglar-type cases in particular.

What are the Government going to do to change the present position? Are they going to do anything? The House will know that the Conservative Party manifesto of 2010 included a pledge,

“to give householders greater protection if they have to defend themselves against intruders in their homes.”

This seemed to fit in and imply that a grossly disproportionate test would replace the reasonableness test. The right honourable Chris Grayling, when he was shadow Home Secretary, said in December 2009:

“At the moment the law allows a defendant to use ‘reasonable force’ to protect him or herself, their family or their property. Conservatives argue that the defence that the law offers a householder should be much clearer and that prosecutions and convictions should only happen in cases where courts judge the actions involved to be ‘grossly disproportionate’”.

In December of that year, the present Prime Minister made an equivalent comment. Is that what the Government intend to introduce in the LASPO Bill? I invite the Minister to tell the House today.

In the Oral Question that I referred to earlier, the noble Lord, Lord Lester, then speaking from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench, said that,

“we on these Benches entirely agree with the way that the Minister”—

that was me at the time—

“has expressed the position, namely that there is a fair balance in the criminal law as it stands and no need for reform. Has the Minister noticed that so far in this short debate, the Official Opposition have not made clear their position? Does he agree”—

these are important words, I think—

“that if the Official Opposition were in government and sought to change the law in the way suggested, they would run up squarely against the European Convention on Human Rights and would find themselves in grave danger of violating the rights of the individual?”.—[Official Report, 25/2/10; col. 1087.]

Does the Minister agree with that statement?

I remind the House of some of the comments that have been made in regard to the “grossly disproportionate” test. Peter Mendelle QC, who was chair of the Criminal Bar Association in January 2010, argued that those who proposed that test should:

“Leave it alone and stop playing politics with the law … This is not law and order. This is no law—and disorder”.

Quite tellingly, Michael Wolkind QC, who represented the defence in the both the Martin and the Munir Hussain case—I think that he did so in the Martin case at appeal only—gave telling expression to why “grossly disproportionate” is the wrong test. He said that permitting householders to use any force which was not grossly disproportionate would amount to “state-sponsored revenge”. He said that there was no need for the law to be changed. He went on:

“The law already recognises that people react in a certain way in the heat of the moment … If I manage to tackle a criminal and get him to the ground, I kick him once and that’s reasonable, I kick him twice and that's understandable, three times, forgivable; four times, debatable; five times, disproportionate; six times, it's very disproportionate; seven times, extremely disproportionate — in comes the Tory test”—

he was talking in early 2010. He continued—

“Eight times, and it's grossly disproportionate. It is a horrible test. It sounds like state-sponsored revenge. I don't understand why sentencing should take place in the home. Why can't it go through the courts? Why can't the jury, as they always do, decide what is reasonable?”

We on this side think that the “grossly disproportionate” test is the wrong test. Can the Minister tell us whether the Government intend to bring in such a test and, if they do not, what they intend to change in the existing law, which we argue works very well?

12:33

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. Although it has been a short debate, it has been extremely informative and worth while. I pay particular tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, in introducing it. I have told him before that one of my very dear friends, now no longer with us, was Lord Gray of Contin. I remember Hamish telling me that he had found a bright, new young star for the Conservative Party for whom he predicted great things. I am sure that it would have given Hamish great pleasure to have been here today to hear the noble Lord introduce these matters with such authority and passion.

The noble Lord, Lord Bach, ended with some interesting quotes, including “state-sponsored revenge” and “sentencing … in the home”. It is worth while stating from the beginning that this is not the Government’s intention or the direction of travel. I hope that my reply to the contributions that have been made in the debate will make that quite clear.

I am not a lawyer, so, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, or the noble Lord, Lord Bach, I cannot unfortunately call on experience from various cases. My only experience is that I once chased a burglar down the street in my pyjamas in my bare feet. I was 21 at the time but I could not catch him even then, so I cannot tell what I would have done if I had caught up with him.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Does the Minister accept that if he had chased after him and had beaten him up then, that would have been revenge and not self-defence?

[Lord McNally]

By the time I had reached the end of a rather long road near Archway, I was so exhausted that I doubt that I would have inflicted much damage on him.

However, I understand the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. Someone breaking into your own home is a terrifying experience. A noble Baroness in this House—I will not name her because I did not get her permission—told me about a burglary and what a trauma it was for her. Interestingly enough, the healing for her came when the burglar was arrested later and she was asked whether she would like to meet him. Her reason for telling me the story was to advocate the benefits of restorative justice. She said that whereas what she had confronted in her flat was a terrifying situation and someone she was very frightened of, when she met a rather pathetic drug addict who had broken in in the hope of getting something to feed his drug addiction the terror somehow drained away. Her story was a little bit of anecdotal evidence of restorative justice in action and benefiting the victim.

The noble Lord, Lord Bach, asked about the Human Rights Act and the ECHR. As he well knows, any proposals that we would have to make—

[Lord Bach]

I was quoting the comments of his noble friend Lord Lester about the Human Rights Act.

[Lord McNally]

My point on that is that, as with any legislation, the Minister in the sponsoring department would have to give the assurances on compatibility. I am absolutely convinced that when it comes to my turn to put these matters at the Dispatch Box my noble friend Lord Lester will show the same unswerving support to me as the Minister as he showed to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, those couple of years ago, but we will see.

There is no intention to sweep away the reasonable force test, but we think that there is a case for clarification. The current law on self-defence was last reviewed, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said, during the passage of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008. That Act clarified the operation of these defences. The court must consider whether the degree of force used by the defendant acting in defence of themselves or others, or to prevent crime, was reasonable in the circumstances.

I know that the Opposition trawl back into past speeches by various individuals—they are entitled to do that; I have done it myself—but the coalition agreement states:

“We will give people greater legal protection to prevent crime and apprehend criminals. We will ensure that people have the protection … they need when they defend themselves against intruders”.

It is on that basis that we have started this process, as the previous Government did in 2008. As my noble friend Lord Thomas pointed out, this is a piece of law that has developed over 250 years. He went back to quoting Blackstone, and it is amazing listening to Blackstone just how contemporary it is in the issues that it addresses.

There is one thing that worries me about “reasonable and proportionate” and about the vigour of my noble friend’s approach. My noble friend Lord Thomas referred to a man who shot a trespasser and even the pacific noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, extolled the virtues of a shotgun—in that case it was for a 136-kilo boar—but there is a worry that we have to get the balance right on this. We do not want a vigilante society or one where people, in the pursuit of protection, start thinking that the gun in the bedside table is the best protection that they could get. It just so happened that my copy of New Scientist fell through the door as I was about to leave this morning. I had better come clean; it does not come for me but for my two sons, who are regular readers. However, I was looking at it today and my eyes fell on an article which shows that in the United States around 20,000 children are injured by firearms each year; a further 900 incidents are fatal; and some 30 million American children live in homes where there is at least one firearm. I know that the United States has very much more of a gun culture but I worry that unless we get the messages clear on this, we could slip towards the idea that firearms are a legitimate way of protecting your home. That is certainly not the way that we want to go.

Incidentally, the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, pointed out that he was a former baseball player, hence the fact that he has a baseball bat, but I saw again in one of those statistics that there are far more baseball bats sold in this country than people who play baseball. It is probably worth a PhD being done somewhere to find what other uses there are for them. One of the things that came through in the contributions is that the facts are different in every case. Like my noble friend Lord Thomas, I put great faith and trust in a jury and a judge who hear all the facts and can balance the arguments. Again, we must therefore not retreat too far from those principles.

The noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, produced an interesting speech, as he always does. The early theme of it was, “I am a pacifist but I will knock the block off anyone who says that I’m not”, but he also got on to the issue of an Englishman’s home being his castle and where we have got to on things such as search and seize powers. He pointed out that the Protection of Freedoms Bill, which will be coming before this House, will address some of the issues that he has been campaigning on, including the scale of coverage by CCTV cameras. There is always an interesting kind of clash with CCTV; anybody who has been canvassing on the doorstep knows that people like CCTV and the security it gives, yet they feel a little uneasy about a surveillance society. We will be having opportunities to discuss those matters. On the delivery of leaflets, I have had debates on the doorstep with householders who believe that I am intruding by pushing through their letterbox a Liberal Democrat leaflet, whereas I have argued that I am exercising my right in a participating democracy. To date, none of those exchanges has ended in violence on either side.

I share some of the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, about intrusive telephone calling and the way in which these bodies now seem to be able to ring through for sales purposes. You can get them blocked but the noble Lord identifies a very real problem. There was also his concern about officialdom calling. One can say time and time again never let anybody into your house unless you are absolutely sure who they are and sure about the validity of the person calling. Yet I know from reading my local newspaper that the elderly are particularly vulnerable to calls from bogus officials, who use that opportunity to commit crime. So some of the issues raised by the noble Lord about intrusion and related matters are very pertinent.

I should like to respond to the challenge from the mover, the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, by stating exactly where we as the Government are. The two main issues that were raised were self-defence and squatting. I can assure noble Lords that both issues are high on the Government’s priority list. They form part of a range of policies to fight crime and to give people greater confidence that the law will protect them when they go about their business in a reasonable and law-abiding way. I will outline the Government’s plans for clarifying and, where necessary, strengthening the law in both areas in the order that the noble Lord raised them.

First, let us be clear that there are a number of simple precautions that homeowners can take to reduce the risk of burglary such as installing alarms, planting prickly shrubs or other things along the perimeter fence, not leaving valuable items on display and leaving lights on when the property is empty at night. But even if every precaution is taken, there will be instances where an intruder is not deterred from breaking into somebody’s home. As I have said, it can be a very frightening prospect indeed to be confronted by an intruder in your own home. The Government believe that the law should be as clear as possible about what a homeowner can do to defend themselves, other people or property.

As noble Lords have heard, the current law on self-defence allows a person to use reasonable force to protect him or herself or other people, and to prevent crime. The current law makes clear that a person in this situation may use all force that is reasonable in the circumstances as he or she perceived them to be at the time. That last bit is important: the law rightly recognises—my noble friend emphasised this—that a person acting in the heat of the moment cannot be expected to weigh to a nicety precisely what level of force was required in the circumstances. Having said that, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, that the public may still be doubtful about what “reasonable force” means in practice and that further clarification in this area would be beneficial.

Noble Lords may recall that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister announced recently that he wanted to put beyond doubt that homeowners and small shopkeepers who use reasonable force to defend themselves or their properties will have the law on their side. We have been working on new legislative measures to achieve that and are still finalising the details of the policy. The provisions will be designed to give people greater certainty about what it means to use reasonable force in self-defence. We are not planning to sweep away the principle altogether, or to give householders the right to use all the force that they are capable of mustering, which appears in some ways to be what the noble Lord is suggesting. Giving householders carte blanche to do whatever they like to an intruder would be a very dangerous strategy. A press release by the CPS in January 2005 provides some examples of where householders have and have not been prosecuted. In one extreme case, a defendant caught an intruder, tied him up, beat him up, threw him into a pit and set fire to him. I do not think that anybody would agree that that sort of behaviour should be condoned, even if the defendant was extremely frightened. If we abolish the concept of reasonable force and say that householders can do whatever they want to an intruder, we could effectively end up sanctioning this type of conduct, or other forms of vigilantism.

The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, referred to recent cases in Manchester where homeowners had been arrested for killing intruders, only for the CPS to decide to take no action. In my view, these cases show that the law is broadly in the right place and that the majority of homeowners who act honestly and instinctively in self-defence will not be prosecuted, but I accept the noble Lord’s point that defendants in these cases may be on tenterhooks following such an intrusion and I think it is important that in these cases the CPS tries to act with some speed. I will draw his remarks to the attention of the Director of Public Prosecutions, who I am sure is aware of the need to be as expeditious as possible in deciding whether or not a charge should be brought, but I do not think it is right to say that householders should never be arrested for killing an intruder.

The police have a difficult job when they are called to an address where someone is dead. They have to work out what has happened and an arrest may well be necessary in order to allow for a prompt and thorough investigation of the case. The Government are working with ACPO on new guidance for the police in order to ensure that consideration is given to whether somebody may have been acting in self-defence, but there will always be cases that are not clear-cut, where it is important that the police investigate the allegation. I saw an example in an earlier briefing in which the apparent cause of death was an attempted burglary, but further police investigation showed that there were gang and drug aspects to the case that made the death not necessarily a result purely of self-defence. One has to realise that there are cases that are not as clear-cut as some of the Manchester examples that the noble Lord drew attention to.

Let me turn now to the points that the noble Lord raised about squatting. The Government share his concern about the harm that squatters cause. Residential and non-residential property owners have contacted Ministers and Members of Parliament time and again about the appalling impact that squatting can have on their homes and businesses. It is not only the cost and length of time it takes to evict squatters that irks property owners; it is also the cost of cleaning and repair bills which follow eviction. While the property owner is literally left picking up the pieces, the squatters have gone on their way, possibly to squat in somebody else’s property. Again, the noble Lord gave some very good examples of where even the smallest, most trivial of crimes bring down the full weight of the law, yet people can find themselves being told to take the civil law when their property has been squatted.

The current law already provides a degree of protection for both commercial and residential property owners, as offences such as criminal damage and burglary would apply. There is also an offence under Section 7 of the Criminal Law Act 1977 that applies where a trespasser fails to leave residential premises on being required to do so by, or on behalf of, a “displaced residential occupier” or a “protected intending occupier”. This offence means that people who have effectively been made homeless as a result of occupation of their properties by squatters can call the police to report an offence. However, there are many residential property owners, including landlords, local authorities and second home owners, who cannot be classified as “displaced residential occupiers” or “protected intending occupiers”. Given the level of public concern about the issue, the Government decided to consult publicly on options for dealing with it. There is a consultation paper out which sets out a range of legislative options. The consultation process ended on 5 October and generated more than 2,200 responses, which officials at the Ministry of Justice are now analysing.

While most property owners would evidently support tougher measures to tackle squatting, a number of bodies such as Shelter and other charities have pointed out that people would not squat if they had somewhere else to go. Of course, one of the Government’s priorities is to try to address the shortage of affordable housing. The Government are taking both sides of the argument into account as they develop proposals in the area. I cannot pre-empt the Government’s formal response to the consultation, but I hope that we will be able to announce our plans in more detail very soon. As I said, this has been a relatively short debate—although I have been told that I have over-run my time—but I hope that I have met a number of the points. I have certainly found it extremely useful, not least to have had a useful prod from both my noble friends.

12:57

[Lord Blencathra]

My Lords, I am very grateful to noble Lords who participated in this short debate and I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for his masterful exposition of English law over the past 250 years and to the noble Lord, Lord Bach. There is only one question I have for him: did he win his defence case?

[Lord Bach]

I half won it.

[Lord Blencathra]

I feel in a similar position today: I feel I have half won on something. I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for his statement of what the Government intend to do, I look forward with interest to the proposals on squatting and I urge on him my halfway-house solution: let us tackle the problem of domestic premises being taken over first. If the Government’s changes to the law there work, then one can look at commercial premises afterwards.

On self-defence, yes, I was trying to push my noble friend further than I know the House wants to go, or the Government want to go. I have no real objection to the concept of reasonable force, if the CPS guidelines are followed. Like the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and other noble Lords, I am entirely supportive of the jury system; we must keep that. I am merely suggesting that there are some cases I have read about where the CPS should not have taken someone to the jury stage, but should have exercised the judgment to drop the case—Omari is a case in point. I also note the point that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, made that, in a trawl, there were only about 11 cases, maybe slightly more, which the CPS did advance.

I conclude by saying that I hope my noble friend will urge the CPS to make a rapid decision in such circumstances. Those of us who are addicted to “CSI: Miami” are used to Horatio confronting a highly complex, horrific crime scene, with 20 different suspects, reaching clarity within 24 hours and deciding who the bad guy is and who is innocent. I rather want the CPS to do the same in all these cases. I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate and look forward to hearing the Government’s proposals in due course. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion withdrawn.

Schools: History

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Debate

13:00

Moved By

[Lord Luke]

To call attention to the teaching of history in schools; and to move for papers.

[Lord Luke]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords in advance for their contributions to today’s debate. I have believed for some time that some vital improvements are overdue in the teaching of, and the importance placed on, history in the United Kingdom. The knowledge afforded to us from learning history forces us to think about who we are; to consider our national identity and responsibilities; to decide whether we live in isolation and selfishness and therefore choose to be passive or whether we go forth and make a difference to the world around us—to learn, to be aware and to be considerate of others’ beliefs and traditions and to ensure that previous mistakes are not repeated.

There is a common saying that those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. It is obvious that we must learn from our past, but to do so we must know our past. Through learning about remarkable individuals and how they shaped our historical landscapes over time, it becomes clear that we all have our roles to play, as did they. Our children are our future, as we were to our forefathers, and history is the key to their future. It is imperative that history be taught, and taught properly. The history that we know does not belong to us; we merely help to contribute to it and protect it for the next generation. It is our duty to ensure that we pass on this knowledge so that our children can, we hope, benefit from it by learning from mistakes which have occurred in the past and, ultimately, by improving the world in which they live—and so the cycle continues.

If taught well, history introduces all kinds of transferable and highly valuable skills, such as an appreciation of the significance of cause and effect and the ability to understand and analyse complex arrangements. Learning about past human relations, and about human nature itself, enhances one’s social awareness and, of course, our sense of national identity. In addition, good general historical knowledge produces a good grounding and jolly good common sense, which is perhaps the most important skill of all.

Knowledge of this subject is seen by many as a valuable currency. For example, the Russell group of universities openly admits that those who possess history qualifications have always been, and still are, immensely attractive candidates when deciding who to take on at degree level. That is why it worries me that the same importance is often not placed on the teaching of history at the earlier stages of the schooling process. England is now the only European country that does not require that history be taught to the age of 15 or 16, and growing numbers of pupils are being allowed to drop the subject at 13. Ofsted reported that 102 maintained secondary schools entered no students to sit GCSE history in 2010. Some 30 per cent of pupils in state schools took history at GCSE last year, and only 20 per cent in academies, compared with 50 per cent in the independent sector. I am afraid that this is affecting the most disadvantaged young people in our society—the very ones for whom a good, well-rounded education is one of their only hopes of improving the quality of their lives.

There are concerns that some young people are being steered into more restrictive pathways, and that these are the most likely to be eligible for free school meals and to live in areas of greater social deprivation. What is being done to target these young people specifically, to ensure that they get the help and encouragement they need? Of all the pupils entered for GCSE history in 2010, roughly 67 per cent passed with grades A to C. Of all those who took GCSE history and were eligible for free school meals, 46 per cent achieved grades A to C. Similar trends can be seen at A-level, and this has a knock-on effect for universities. According to the schools White Paper, of the approximately 600,000 children who enter state education every year, some 80,000 are eligible for free school meals. Only 45 of those students made it to Oxbridge. That figure is up by 12.5 per cent on the year before, when only 40 made it. That increase is welcome, and I commend the Department for Education for it, but the figure is still very low. I would be interested to know what proportion of children eligible for free school meals made it to any university.

I have always believed that our primary goal in politics is to make opportunities equally available for all and to narrow the gap between rich and poor—the advantaged and the disadvantaged. As Michael Gove said recently:

“It is only through reforming education that we can allow every child the chance to take their full and equal share in citizenship, shaping their own destiny, and becoming masters of their own fate”.

I completely agree. Everybody deserves this equal opportunity. Sadly, it seems that it is the most disadvantaged children who are missing out. We must not continue to fail them. Put simply, if one does not know enough, one is at serious risk of not achieving one’s full potential. We must ensure that all our children, particularly the most disadvantaged, fulfil their potential. I know that the Government are acutely aware of this issue and are committed to correcting it. Can the Minister update the House on the progress of the plans in this respect?

Last month the Historical Association published a report in which it noted that the only access to specialist history teaching for two-thirds of young people is during key stage 3. From then on specialist expertise fast disappears in many schools. We in the UK are lucky to have so many fantastic teachers, but what is being done to entice more talent into the profession and to ensure that history teachers are always properly trained and possess the expertise and enthusiasm that is necessary to do the subject real justice? I mention enthusiasm specifically because that is the reason why I studied history when I was lucky enough to go to university. I was taught by some extremely able and enthusiastic teachers.

In their report, the Ofsted inspectors cited that a particular problem with the teaching of history was an unbalanced curriculum that paid too much attention to particular topics at the expense of others. Some of our children are missing out on learning about some of the most important individuals and events of our heritage. The Prime Minister once remarked that the composition of the history curriculum was tapas-like, whereby children are given bite-sized and disconnected instruction on isolated events, and no narrative. I have to say that I agree. I am astounded when I read stories about one set of children thinking that Winston Churchill is the nodding dog character in the television adverts for insurance. I read only the other day that our colleague, the noble Lord, Lord West, was spotted on the Central line wearing his full military attire. When an eight year-old asked him why he was dressed in that way, the noble Lord replied, “Because I am in the Navy”. The boy then asked him, “What is the Navy?”. This is incredibly alarming and surely must not continue.

What is being done to ensure that the history curriculum is properly composed in a chronological manner so that children can place what they learn in a logical way in their minds? Can the Minister also tell us what is being done to make the subject more accessible to children and more exciting to study?

The only thing that we have learnt from history is that we never learn from history. That is a very bleak forecast, but it has been promulgated on many occasions. I just hope that it does not always happen. I dearly hope that it is not true. I am very aware of the work that our great team in the Department for Education is doing and I am confident that it will take on, is aware of, and is working on many of the issues that noble Lords will highlight today. I am looking forward to hearing what the Minister and all my noble colleagues have to say. I beg to move.

13:12

[Baroness Bakewell]

My Lords, I support everything that the noble Lord has said about the teaching of history and commend his appalling account of the record of history teaching as it now stands in our schools. I deplore that situation and I call on the Minister to see that it is rectified as soon as possible.

Let me quote WH Auden, who wrote:

“I and the public know

What all school children learn,

Those to whom evil is done

Do evil in return”.

It is a legendary phrase that he wrote in his poem on 1 September 1939. The phrase “all school children learn” was one that he could use then and everyone accepted it. That is no longer the case. All schoolchildren do not learn. A consensus has gone.

The consensus has gone because over the recent generation there have been what you could call curriculum wars. They arose because a generation of postmodern writers analysed history and came to the conclusion that it was merely entirely subjective and a narrative that was the propaganda of one particular segment, and that being subjective no-one could decide whose history to teach. Those wars went on in academic circles to the detriment of young people. You could imagine that, for example, over the teaching of the history of Ireland. Do we teach the Catholic or the Protestant version? Whose version? One person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter. Whose version do we teach? The chaos of these arguments over the teaching of what truth is—when can you call a fact a fact and not propaganda?—created a crisis in the teaching of history itself.

Bernard Williams, a philosopher, in his book Truth and Truthfulness, drew on what has been an ongoing debate since the time of the Greeks—the postmodernists did not invent it, although they aggravated it. Bernard Williams quoted Clemenceau who, when asked what future historians would say about the First World War, said:

“They will not say that Belgium invaded Germany”.

We can also be confident that Archbishop Ussher, the Primate of All Ireland, was wrong to claim in the 17th century that the world began on 23 October 4004 BC—that that was the day of creation. He believed it, he spoke it as truth, and he was wrong. Knowledge changes over time.

We know that the victors write the history. We have in this building a painting that demonstrates that Wellington defeated Napoleon and that the British were the victors at Waterloo. The Prussians beg to disagree; but the overriding fact was that Napoleon was defeated. These curriculum wars have brought us to this sad state of affairs and it is important that we reinstate history for the three benefits that I shall name. I am sure that noble Lords will mention many others. History teaches us the timeline of humanity. It teaches us chronology and what it means for the human race. I was asked by a small child, who was not that small and should have known better, “Did the Tudors come after the Victorians?”. They need to know. There is virtue in knowing about the Normans, the Plantagenets, the Tudors and the Stuarts because in that way children can understand the nature of monarchy in this country today. That is very important, enriching and a pleasure to know.

Secondly, history teaches cause and effect, as the noble Lord, Lord Luke, said. Have we ever resolved what the causes of the French Revolution were? Have we always gone on writing essays about them? How fruitful it is to revisit such a subject—the causes of the Industrial Revolution or the Russian Revolution? Revolution figures quite a lot in these causation debates. Only this morning, Andreas Whittam-Smith, writing in the Independent, asks, “Is the world heading for a new revolution?”. In his article, he cites the circumstances of 1848 when, as noble Lords will know, Europe was swept by revolution. He cites the causes of the 1848 revolution and suggests that they are available today, and that we should think about that. Understanding cause and effect will make us think about our present society.

History teaches judgment. Over the years, history has taught us to judge the slave trade. It has taught us to judge Victorian society—its virtues as well as child labour and squalid industrial circumstances. It has taught us to celebrate the emancipation of women. Recently, the Tricycle Theatre in London put on a series of 12 short plays in groups of four, running over three nights. Called “The Great Game”, it is about British involvement in Afghanistan since 1940. It sold out. Sir David Richard, the Chief of the Defence Staff, said that it was as historically accurate as you would get in any lesson. The audience was full of people from the Ministry of Defence, soldiers, civil servants, Sandhurst cadets, and people who wanted to know the history of British involvement in Afghanistan. The British were not the only ones. The plays then went to Washington and were played at the Pentagon.

There is a greed for history. There is a greed to know how we got here. How did this situation arise? It is directly significant in all our lives today. There is a yearning for history in people’s hearts. People may miss out at school, but when the new archive building opened at Kew, it was inundated with people seeking their genealogy—those who wanted to know about their ancestry and to feed their identity.

The television programme “Who Do You Think You Are?” has a big following. It teaches people how to go to church not for the religion necessarily but to seek out records of births, marriages and deaths and of their families. History is also expressed in the civic pride we find when cities are full of plaques on the walls, indicating to us where important people lived and what they contributed. With my background, I am particularly fond of one on a rather posh Manchester hotel that records Peterloo and what that massacre stood for in the movement towards democratic reform.

History gives us our identity and a perspective. It allows us to understand the issues of the past about which we might feel some guilt—a wish to apologise even—but it teaches us who we are. It gives us local, civic pride and national pride. We must not deprive our children of that.

13:21

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Luke on calling for this important debate. When thinking about it, three things occurred to me: my grandson’s pet hen, the Secretary of State for Education’s speech to the Conservative Party conference in 2010 and the EBacc. Let me explain. Recently my grandson got a pet chicken. When he was asked what he wanted to call it, he said, “Boudicca”. We were all a little taken aback because we thought he was going to say “Henrietta”, or “Hyacinth” or something like that.

It made me ask him some questions about what he was learning in his history lessons at school and he knew as much as most of us know about that mysterious and warlike queen. Then I looked in some detail at the national curriculum document for key stage 1 for 5 to 7 year-olds. It states that during key stage 1,

“pupils learn about people's lives and lifestyles. They find out about significant men, women, children and events from the recent and more distant past, including those from both Britain and the wider world. They listen and respond to stories and use sources of information to help them ask and answer questions and learn how the past is different from the present”.

It goes on to indicate that they are expected to acquire a chronological understanding of events and objects, develop an understanding of events, people and changes in the past, find out about the past from different sources, select from that knowledge and communicate it in a variety of ways.

That struck me as quite challenging and interesting and absolutely fine for a young child. Then I read what the Secretary of State for Education, Mr Michael Gove, said in his speech to the Conservative Party conference in 2010, which was:

“Children are growing up ignorant of one of the most inspiring stories I know—the history of our United Kingdom … The current approach we have to history denies children the opportunity to hear our island story. Children are given a mix of topics at primary, a cursory run through Henry VIII and Hitler at secondary and many give up the subject at 14, without knowing how the vivid episodes of our past become a connected narrative”.

If that really were the state of affairs, it would be extremely sad. However, I had difficulty in connecting the two things: the curriculum that I had read and my right honourable friend’s speech. Even for such young children, the curriculum talks about the history of Britain and chronological understanding. It also seems to me to have a balance between acquiring knowledge and skills. So I looked further to see what Mr Gove's problem was and I discovered that all children have to study history up to the age of 14—that is, during their first nine years of schooling.

Perhaps there is a problem with the curriculum for older children. I found that at key stage 2, 7 to 11 year-olds do more of everything that is in key stage 1 and they also learn about changes and continuity in their own area. They are expected to look at history in a number of ways, such as political, economic, technological and scientific, social, religious, cultural and aesthetic. Again they have to use different methods and sources to investigate and use dates and historical vocabulary to describe events, and learn that the past can be interpreted in different ways. They have to do three British history studies and studies in European and world history. Even those latter ones incorporate looking at Britain in a European or world context.

I was still puzzled about where the problem was. I then looked at key stage 3 for 11 to 14 year-olds. They study people and events in Britain from the Middle Ages to the 20th century, build on chronological understanding and are expected to develop further awareness of cultural, ethnic and religious diversity, changes across different historical periods, causes and consequences—the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, said that was important—the significance of historical events and assess the validity of different historians’ interpretations. They are being asked to develop critical thinking. It occurred to me that this should really help to develop their critical skills and we do, of course, want to develop critical thinkers in this country.

When I was at school, history was a very passive subject for me and I was bored stiff. I repeated the Middle Ages for three years running, but still know far too little about it. It was better in primary school where we were able to do some project work which was much more engaging. So, looking at what the curriculum requires, it is hard to know what the problem is. Yes, I accept that the number studying history at GCSE and A-level are going down, but all children have already had nine years of history and that should be enough for many of them if it is well taught.

I will return to that. However, I do not believe that interest in history ends when you leave school. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, said, you have only to look at the popularity of history programmes on the television and the enormous membership figures of the National Trust and the National Trust for Scotland. History, personal in relation to family trees and national, has become one of the major activities for older people. Programmes such as “Who Do You Think You Are?” of which I am a keen fan, and the many heritage programmes on television, have very high viewing figures and schools television programmes are also excellent. This started decades ago with the famous “Civilisation” series.

However, I listened recently to a Radio 4 programme about the teaching of history and they did a lot of vox pops. Here I heard a clue to the problem identified by the Secretary of State. Those contributors who enjoyed history and really learnt something had specialist teachers who were passionate about their subject and communicated that to their pupils. Here I think we have a problem. The Historical Association—as the noble Lord, Lord Luke, said—conducted a survey of history teachers this year and they, and Ofsted too, concluded that there is much to celebrate. They said:

“This is not a narrow curriculum, as the Secretary of State suggested, confined to Henry VIII and Hitler”.

That is not my opinion, but that of the expert historians. Having looked at the curriculum, I am afraid I agree with them. However, we should also take note of something else they found: that 67 per cent of the teachers surveyed did not have a history adviser in their area; 49 per cent said they had little or no training for subject leadership; and 90 per cent said there was an absence of subject-specific continuous professional development. As the noble Lord, Lord Luke, pointed out, two-thirds of young people get access to a specialist teacher only when they get to secondary school and sometimes not even then.

That makes history advisers and CPD really important if we are going to have confident teachers who can communicate a passion for the subject. Only then are we going to get enough young people taking GCSE and going on to A-level and history degrees. Only then will we produce enough history graduates to provide more specialist history teachers, as well as enough people to fill all the other posts that require professional historians.

History is important. It helps to develop in young people many of the same skills and critical attitudes and understanding of methodology as science does. If you want to know why history is important, you need only look at what happens to someone who completely loses their personal history by losing their memory. They are adrift. They lose the ability to understand themselves through the prism of their own past. Nations are the same. They understand themselves and are better equipped to face their future if they know about and understand their past.

What are the Government doing about this? That brings me to my third point: the EBacc. I understand from the statement to me of the Minister for Schools, Mr Nick Gibb, that the reason for the EBacc is,

“to ensure that more children study history”.

I presume he means that more 14 to 16 year-olds study history, as all five to 14 year-olds do so anyway. The Government have been at pains to say that the EBacc is only one of many ways in which schools will be judged and that they only want to ensure that all children have the opportunity to study history at GCSE level. That may well be, but the best way to ensure that young people study hard, make an effort and come out of school with some confidence-building success behind them is to ensure that they can study those subjects which are most appropriate for them. It is also a fact that not all schools see it that way. They think that they will be judged on the EBacc, and we find that they are staffing up to deliver it at the expense of other subjects such as RE, music and vocational subjects. That is a problem.

I certainly do not agree with Simon Schama's conclusion that we are creating two nations of young Britons: those who grow up with a sense of our shared memory and those who have been encouraged to treat it as little more than an ornamental polishing for the elite. Having read his article in the London Review of Books of March this year, I am much more inclined to agree with Richard Evans, who says about the national curriculum:

“There seems to be plenty of factual content in all this, plenty of kings and queens too. The examples the curriculum provides for teaching history to children from 7 to 11 make mention of 36 significant individuals, ranging from Boudicea and Caractacus to Livingstone and Brunel. From 11 to 14, children study the whole sweep of British history from 1066 to 1900”.

He points out that assessment concentrates 70 per cent on knowledge and 30 per cent on skills, so why Mr Gove thinks that facts and names play no part in all this is a mystery. Richard Evans concludes, and I agree, that the problem is not in the curriculum but in schools' ability to deliver it. Therefore my question to my noble friend is: what do the Government plan to do about that? Are the new teacher training schools to be involved? What sort of specialist support will be available to non-specialist teachers, who will inevitably have to deliver history, in particular in primary schools?

Finally, I express the hope that those carrying out the curriculum review will not feel the need to throw the current curriculum up in the air as a kneejerk reaction to one or two critical and opinionated historians but instead to seek the views of a wide and balanced range of them. The only lesson of history may be that we do not learn the lessons of history, but we should try.

13:33

[Lord Thomas of Swynnerton]

My Lords, I should perhaps declare an interest to begin with, because one of my books was a set book for Eton on the Spanish civil war. Therefore, what the Etonians had to study was something about which I had thought a good deal. Although I am not a teacher of history, I have taught in universities; although I am not a schoolboy, I have an interest in the debate.

The aim should be to give to everyone who goes to school in this country a broad knowledge of the history of the country. I do not think that foreign countries are as important in the teaching of history as is the teaching of history in Britain. That teaching should concentrate on five things: first, the growth of political liberty; secondly, the industrial revolution; thirdly, the expansion of Britain overseas to the Empire; fourthly, some feeling of the importance of English literature and art throughout the ages, which is one of the reasons why we are admired outside this country; and, fifthly, some view of our relations with the continent of Europe, which has been such a continuous part of our political and intellectual development from the Middle Ages onwards—and, indeed, before. Do not forget that, had things gone differently at Orléans in 1430, this country would have achieved that union with France which Winston Churchill wanted to achieve in 1940.

Speaking of those five separate undertakings, I believe that the winning of political liberty in this country is something on which we should dwell. It was not as easy as it must seem. Some of those who challenge it now seem to think that it is not worth talking about. The effort to achieve habeas corpus, constant elections and the rule of law was not an easy undertaking. It took many generations to perfect it. It would be good if in most schools students—pupils—were brought up to understand the golden age of British politics. One might say that that was the 1790s, the age of Pitt, Charles James Fox, Burke, Sheridan and so on; unless one thinks that it would be better to concentrate on the 19th century, the age of Disraeli and Gladstone or of Gladstone and Salisbury.

The history of the industrial revolution should also be discussed. The industrial revolution is sometimes vilified as if it has brought ugliness, unhappiness and misery. That is not the case. It has vastly increased human comfort and the number of people employed and opened up a new world to a far more satisfied population.

The Empire, the expansion of Britain, should also be discussed. There are several sections to that: the North American empire, the African empire, the Middle East empire, the empire in the Far East, concentrated on the Malay States and Singapore, and Australasia. Those are five separate undertakings by which we as a nation are judged. I belong to a family which served continuously in both India and Africa. I am aware that one can criticise my ancestors or my uncles, but I know that they thought that they were doing the right thing not only for this country but for the peoples of the countries concerned, to whom they were bringing culture, Christianity and civilisation—three major “C”s which they never forgot.

The fourth British achievement—in the arts—should also not be forgotten. We are admired as the nation of Shakespeare, Milton, Keats, Shelley, Dickens and Scott just as much as we are as the nation of Pitt, Fox, and so on. There is no question but that such writers as Sir Walter Scott and Dickens are still in the mind of all educated Europeans— indeed, of all citizens of the world.

Finally, there is the relation with Europe. This is a permanently quarrelsome topic but the fact is that British history has been continuously a part of Europe. We have always been in Europe. The mere fact that our main square is called Trafalgar Square and our main station is called Waterloo is a reminder of that. Our monarchs have been alternately French and German, as well as Welsh and Scottish, but our relation with Europe characterises all our military activity throughout recorded history.

I think these five sections should play a part in national education in a major way and the subject should be approached as if they were the essential underpinnings of the historical memory which we are trying to stimulate, develop and achieve.

13:41

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, it is a great privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, who is a most distinguished historian. He referred very modestly to his work on the Spanish civil war but no more seminal work has been produced in this country in the past 50 years. He did not refer, modestly or otherwise, to his history of the slave trade. I wish he had because it is a book that would commend itself to all those Members of your Lordships’ House who have not yet read it.

This is a very important debate and I am most grateful, as we all are, to my noble friend Lord Luke not only for introducing it but for the manner in which he did so. Over the nearly 42 years now that I have been associated with this place I have on many occasions taken parties of school children round this building, which I love and will love to my dying day. I have always taken them to the Royal Gallery and I have gone through the kings and queens whose portraits hang there from the first of the Hanoverians onwards. I have talked of the two great paintings by Daniel Maclise, which are being looked at for restoration. There is a great difference between the parties that I used to take round in the early 1970s and the parties that I have taken round more recently. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, referred to the phrase that every schoolboy knows. In the early 1970s when I talked about the Battle of Trafalgar and the Battle of Waterloo—the pictures of which, incidentally, had to be covered up when Giscard d’Estaing addressed both Houses here—every member of the group that I was showing round would know about Waterloo and Trafalgar. In more recent years that has not been the case.

As a young man before I entered the House of Commons I was for 10 years a schoolmaster. I taught history. I had charge of the history curriculum in two schools. I made sure that the boys—I am afraid they were all boys in those days in the schools in which I taught—when they reached the age of 16 all had a reasonable, chronological knowledge of the history of their country. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, is right to say that it is the history of our country that we should be primarily concerned with. I made sure that all those boys knew about the great events in English history and the great people who had moulded those events, be it Wycliffe and the Lollards and the first attempt at an English Bible, Hampden and Pym in the 17th century, those great orators of the 18th century to whom the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, referred, or Gladstone and Disraeli. One liked to try and enliven one’s lessons by telling amusing stories. I always loved the one about Disraeli and Gladstone when Disraeli said that if Mr Gladstone fell into the Thames it would be a great misfortune but if somebody pulled him out it would be a calamity. By means of anecdotes one could bring alive the history of the country in a way to which young people responded.

In more recent years when I have shown people round there has often been a look of blank incredulity and ignorance when I have talked of some of the great names of our past. Why is that the case? I am afraid I do not share the sanguine view of the history curriculum held by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. What may be said in the curriculum papers is not necessarily brought forth in the classroom. I think that Mr Gove was entirely justified in making the remarks that he made in 2010 and I hope that my noble friend, when he comes to respond to this debate, will be able to give your Lordships some encouragement. The knowledge of our history is the birthright of every child in this country. To deprive a child of his or her birthright is an act of wanton intellectual and academic vandalism. It is essential that all our children have a knowledge of our history so that when they leave school they can fit into the framework of national events the things about which they read in the contemporary press.

We were recalled to this House in August to discuss those dreadful, disfiguring riots. There was unanimous consternation here at what had happened. I put forward a suggestion, which I want to repeat. I said that every young man or woman leaving school, be it at the age of 16 or 18, should go through the same sort of ceremony that those who now aspire to British citizenship must go through and that in order to do so they must be able to demonstrate a certain knowledge of the history of their country. We have a golden opportunity coming up to do something about this.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way but this point is pertinent to what he has just said about those rioters. Is he talking about teaching history, as he and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, have described it, or should we not have more about the people’s history of Britain? There is another dimension to history teaching on which a number of very commendable books have been written which turn the world upside down. Would he reflect on that as well?

[Lord Cormack]

I hope that I reflect on all sorts of things as I make my meandering remarks but I will not allow myself to be too diverted by the noble Lord’s intervention.

The point I am seeking to make is that I believe that those who leave school to go into the wider world should be proud of their British birthright, which means that they must have a knowledge of the history of this country. I was going on to say that I believe there is a golden opportunity coming up because in 2015 we will be commemorating the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta. Only yesterday I was talking in my capacity as chairman of the History of Parliament Trust to Sir Robert Worcester who is chairing the committee on Magna Carta. I asked him whether it would not be a marvellous idea if in that year every school leaver in the country was given a facsimile of Magna Carta and an account of what it meant for the foundation of our liberties. That would be a good thing and would help concentrate the mind.

Anniversaries are good. This morning at Question Time—rather mischievously, because it was not relevant to the Question—the noble Lord, Lord West, talked about Trafalgar Day, which is tomorrow. How many people out there know that Trafalgar Day is tomorrow? Should it not be incumbent on those who teach history in our schools to ensure that every child knows that Trafalgar Day is tomorrow, just as they should know the significance of 11 November? Of course, in three years’ time we will have an opportunity to reflect on the beginning of the First World War.

The problem today is that there is a pick and mix attitude to history teaching in schools. Very often there is a constant emphasis on the Second World War. I was born just before the beginning of that terrible war and of course I yield to no one in acknowledging how tremendously important and life-changing for everyone around the world it was. However, that is not the sum total of history. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, talked about cause and effect, as did my noble friend Lord Luke. If people are going to understand the Second World War, they have to understand the First World War; and if they are going to understand the First World War, they have to understand the French Revolution, to which the noble Baroness referred. If they are going to understand that, they have to understand our revolutions of the 17th century: the bloody one, which resulted in the death of the king, and the glorious one, as we often call it, through which the true foundations of parliamentary democracy were laid and the absolute power of the monarch came to an end without bloodshed. All these things they have to know.

It is important that we should discuss these matters in the House. This evening I will have the honour of presiding at a small dinner for a group of fellow members of the Royal Historical Society. We shall meet David Willetts, the Minister in charge of universities, to discuss the teaching of history in universities. This is a follow-up to a similar dinner that I arranged last year for Royal Society members to meet Michael Gove to discuss the teaching of history in schools. A golden thread links the two: we want more young people in our schools to read history at university. We hope that when they do, it will give them a comprehensive knowledge of history such as is not always the case at the moment. I have a son of whom I am extremely proud. He read history at a great university. He knows nothing at all about the Middle Ages, although he has a very good degree. That cannot be right.

We have an opportunity today to point to and underline the fundamental importance of the study of our past. My noble friend introduced the debate very eloquently on that score. We also have a duty to ask the Minister to do all that he can with the Secretary of State to ensure that the centrality of history in the curriculum of our schools is underlined. History must be chronological and as all-embracing as possible. Young people must study it to the age of 16 at least, and when they leave school they should not only have knowledge, but knowledge of which they are truly proud.

13:54

[Baroness Andrews]

My Lords, we are all in debt to the noble Lord, Lord Luke, for the debate. It is a pleasure to take part and to follow the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, who has done so much in his career to promote history and heritage. I declare an interest as chair of English Heritage and also, in another life, as a makeshift historian. Sadly, I was never taught either by my charismatic noble friend Lord Morgan or by any of the other historians in the Chamber—sadly, not even by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack.

The debate is extremely timely because it is timeless. At its heart are questions that surround the whole purpose of teaching history and how we find the right way to teach it. Dictatorships have never had a problem with the importance and purpose of teaching history, and they have come up with similar solutions. Democracies, too, wrestle with this, and many questions raised in the House are fundamental to a democratic appreciation of the importance of history. Even in a country such as ours, with a very placid trajectory, we have wrestled with these questions for decades if not centuries.

The teaching of a subject that raises the issue of what constitutes the national past and what should be taught in schools is a study in history itself. It is a brave debate to embark on, and it is a brave Minister who, in summing up, will have to try to reconcile all the different views. I have been helped to find my own way through this thicket by the work of David Cannadine. I was very happy that he gave me access to a book he is about to publish called The Teaching of History. I am very grateful to him for the brief glimpse he gave me of a very powerful thesis in which he charts the disagreements over the teaching and learning of history in this country over the past century. There is no doubt that, in a very decentralised curriculum that serves an astonishing variety of schools and a diverse system generally, the teaching of history has been fraught with disagreements, at least since 1870 if not earlier—I am sure my noble friend could correct me.

Until the 1980s and the coming of the national curriculum, the power to influence through the Secretary of State was very limited. Now, with the national curriculum and its relationships with examinations, almost as many issues are being raised. Many of them were raised in this debate, with controversies around them. The fundamental question is whether history matters. If it does not, it is hard to explain the fascination demonstrated already across the Chamber, for example with “The Tudors” on television or with the great blockbusting historical novels or, indeed, the great popularity of anniversaries. If one wants an example of how government interferes with the presentation of history, the account of Prince Albert chairing the Fine Arts Commission, and the commissioning of the Maclise portraits in the new German technology, on which he insisted, is fascinating. I commend Malcolm Hay, our curator, for that knowledge.

If history does not matter, why is there so much evident concern with the fact that fewer than one-third of students take history beyond 14? Why is there anxiety among teachers themselves about the lack of specialist knowledge in primary schools? Why is there an agonised debate about narrative versus bore-hole theories of history? I hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that many of these issues will be raised in the curriculum review. History does matter, and must be seen to matter. That is crucial. In a complex, liberal and individualistic society such as ours, consciousness of the past is even more important. The more sophisticated that our society becomes and the more that we move away from linear, simplistic interpretations, the more we need history. Of course it is about identity and it is central to our sense of place, significance, perspective and proportion. I was fascinated by the account of the dramatic interpretations of British relations with Iraq. For the past 10 years I have yearned for our Governments to know more about the history of British relations with the Middle East in general.

History offers at least two particular, related motivations for learning. One is that it is full of ripping yarns and feeds our appetite for more stories. One of my GCSE heroes was Jethro Tull and the seed drill, although I cannot imagine that he is a very popular figure these days. The Elizabethan spymasters, too, captured my imagination. Having talked to a few leading historians this week, including some from the better history forum, which involves both academics and teachers, it seems that a key issue is time itself—time in the school day. Evidence suggests that since 2007 the curriculum has been eaten away in terms of time and focus. Head teachers are under pressure to get results. One result is that in many schools the time available for history is heavily restricted. In some, the discipline survives as a discrete subject; in others, it is treated principally as serving other disciplines. The picture is very patchy, especially in primary schools.

In secondary schools there is a growing tendency to cram key stage 3 into two years. This can mean that, in effect, many pupils get only two years of specialist history teaching before they give the subject up. The rest of Europe might be shocked to know that we have students giving up history completely at 13. I have to ask the Minister why he thinks so many schools are losing the battle. How can we incentivise head teachers? What impact is the EBacc going to have in this respect? Crucially, does he agree with the case made by many historians these days that history should be compulsory to 16? Does he agree that this would drive a more coherent and integrated syllabus across key stages 3 and 4?

This is a salient question because, no matter how we read history, whether we are on the side of the great sweeping narrative or we see the virtues of the in-detail study of Henry VIII or Hitler, there is a tension here. We do not go in for the great historical panorama set pieces any more. I do not want to use another food analogy, but it has been described as the YO! Sushi approach to history, where one just tastes little bits of history and studies short blocks of time intensively. Whether or not this approach allows a better understanding of historical debates and engagement with original materials—and I think possibly it does—it certainly leaves students, as Ofsted put it, with,

“an episodic knowledge of history”,

and a sense of time that is unclear. At GCSE level there is a sort of swerve back into narrative history but the complaint here is the isolated use of texts without the connecting tissue of context.

The question of what is taught, and how, raises questions around the need for transparency of the assessment and examination system. Again, I hope the curriculum review might address this. I do not want to put the Minister on the spot but there is a big question about whether the Government should have a greater role in determining detailed content of the curriculum to avoid, for example, eccentric programmes of study. Another subset of this tension between narrative and episodic teaching is between what could be parodied as the Gradgrind approach to history—“Facts, my boy!”—and the approach that determines that history is a splendid way of developing other analytical skills and competences. Again, this is an active debate in our schools today.

I too have read the Historical Association reports about the absence of specialist teaching and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, was quite right to point to that as absolutely central to how we read and develop this debate into better learning and teaching. By the sound of it, it is possible that some students can go through their entire school career without ever being taught by specialist teachers. Ofsted talks about teachers failing to establish,

“a clear mental map of the past”,

because they lack expertise and because of the disconnected way the national curriculum treats topics.

Finally, one point of particular relevance to bodies such as English Heritage is the proposition from the better history forum that the Government should work from the outset with professional bodies and resource providers to ensure that the curriculum is fully resourced. I say amen to that, because surely history is above all an adventure—an active and participative adventure. When children are engaged with learning they are motivated to learn more, and when they visit our great monuments and sites, whether in school or sometimes more successfully out of school, they do not engage with bricks and mortar but they engage with their imaginations.

There is a problem with time and resources in schools—it is a crowded curriculum. I hope the Minister agrees that time and resources are well spent when schools commit to out-of-school learning. English Heritage is fully engaged with this, as noble Lords will understand. We have wonderful resources that we download into classrooms and then we upload students into our sites and monuments. Anyone who has seen the legions of 10 year-old Roman soldiers at Birdoswald on Hadrian’s Wall—making Roman lamps no less—or encountered a group of tiny children acting out the life of the Victorian servant class in Apsley House, will know that these children will always want more history and that heritage for them is not actually the past, it is something that enriches and explains their future.

One of my ambitions is to make those occasional encounters a substantial and systematic part of the relationship between local schools and local history and the national story. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, that he would like to see his five themes; I would actually like to see more attention in the curriculum to the local history of our country and, of course, the four countries in our nation. I would also make a plea for more study of the impact of science and technology.

For noble Lords who have not been there, I should say that Dover Castle is a brilliant example of how history reinvents itself. Dover Castle was not only an Iron Age hill fort at the beginning of our story; it concludes with the wartime tunnels—opening this summer—from which Admiral Ramsay, a rather neglected figure, saved the soldiers from Dunkirk, when 300,000 men were taken off the beaches. We have the whole story of England in one site. How much better can it get?

Finally, I do not entirely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. I actually share Simon Schama’s concerns that if less history is taught in some schools—those schools might be the academy schools, and I would like the Minister to comment on whether that is possibly the case—there can be a schizophrenia, which is to say a sense of shared memory and shared appreciation of history among one group of people and a lack of interest and appreciation among another. That has huge implications, not just for culture but for a diverse nation which has to come to terms with a number of different stories and histories. I believe that this is an issue. As Simon Schama said,

“a truly capacious British history …will not be the feeder of identity politics but its dissolvent”.

That is one of the many very serious questions raised by this debate.

14:06

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, when it comes to a debate on history I am afraid I bring a little history of my own into this. The first time I got into a really nasty row with a member of my own party was about 23 years ago when I spoke on a debate on history in this House. It was when we were getting rid of the old O-level and replacing it with GCSE, and it was decided that this was not fact-driven enough. We had to do something else; we just could not have this new syllabus with things like empathy coming in. When I criticised the council leader who sacked a teacher who was, bizarrely, teaching to the then Scottish O-grade, I was attacked about it over the phone. I was quite joyful as a 26 year-old to tell a 45 year-old councillor to go and shove it and read the debate before he spoke to me again. Everybody has an opinion, everybody gets paranoid about history, because everybody assumes that the bit they are interested in is the bit we should be interested in—the bit that we find speaks to us should be the bit that somebody else should take on board.

The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, spoke about the 18th and 19th centuries. I did the 18th and 19th centuries because I was at school in the 1970s. I did the O-level system where you actually learned lots of facts—we had O-level memory and we did not have any history, to be perfectly honest. Yes, we could run off all the Prime Ministers and the Acts they passed, but it did not tell you anything. It did not tell you how they related to each other or how anything went on from that. The noble Lord referred to the Glorious Revolution, so called because of course in England there was not any fighting; it was all in Ireland and Scotland—not quite so glorious there, possibly. Every time you take a little bit of history you have to look at it.

Probably the most profound historical exercise I undertook was to do with being best man at a wedding in France, believe it or not. I was best man to a university flatmate who also read history. The families were arguing over who should sit where. Over the second bottle of wine at a dinner party it was suggested that I might want to put all the French people on tables named after famous English victories over them, with the most embarrassing paragraph about that victory on the table, and the English the other way round. This was an extremely fun project. The best one I found was Yorktown for the English. You could say it was a French victory—and we had a few Americans there so they got annoyed as well; it was great—because the army of America was of course paid for by the French and there were nearly as many French soldiers outside and a French fleet besieging it, which is an interesting little fact to take back and annoy people with. You then get the idea: “But that’s not really fair. No, that’s not it”. But that is what happened. Unless you look at and embrace your failures and the things that went wrong in history, you will ultimately get it wrong. In looking at history, we tend to look at what makes us great. We should look at what made us bad as well and remember the fact that any nation which has been out there could almost drown in its own sins of failure or perhaps straightforward misunderstanding at any point.

Earlier, we heard that when people were in colonial service they thought that they were bringing culture and superiority to the societies which we were imperially controlling. I suggest that India might argue with us that it had a valid culture and a valid history. Its civilised and recorded history is rather better than ours. It is more interesting and more colourful. India must look at why it allowed this ridiculous nation thousands of miles away to take over the whole sub-continent, which is an equally interesting question.

This comes down to the question of how one takes this information and puts it into a classroom. My noble friend Lady Walmsley got it right when she read out what is prescribed in the history curriculum. It is a huge task, which, if anything, is too big. It is possible only with specialist support. Perhaps we are too ambitious and ask everyone to do rather more than they are capable of. A limit on what you are trying to do might be important. How can we possibly bring this together?

We come back to the fashions in history. People of my age were taught about the 18th and 19th centuries. Now it seems to be World War II and the Tudors—possibly not, but they seem to be the fashionable subjects that come up most often. What is more valid? One could spend a lifetime discussing that question and still not come to a conclusion that means anything. As has been pointed out, they are part of the same continuous street.

I have met professional historians—indeed, the much missed Lord Russell, who I remember would say when you got slightly outside his spectrum, “Oh, not my period”. He might have had a rough idea of what was going on but it was not his period. Most professional historians are like that. The arguments about fashion come back to the idea of the marxist versus the revisionist or the post-modernists. All of them basically play with ideas. Then we all have an opinion on the ideas. We have all done a little history or have all done some education, in that most of us have been to school. The idea of fashion comes in and out and always different pressures will be put on people as regards fashion.

We should not read too much into this. The one thing that we can be sure about is that fashion changes. People now attacking the system and the status quo will be attacked because that is what academics and politicians do. They feed off ideas. If history gives us an idea of place and of our place within our country, it will depend on how we teach that and how we connect it.

I shudder to say this with my noble friend Lady Benjamin at my left elbow: the fact is that if you come from an ethnic minority you may have a different sense of what is important in history from, for example, a white hereditary Peer. I am sure that different family connections go back through the system here. I know that my family provided people for the colonial service for quite a long time. There were different perceptions of what you did and what you should not do. Once again, people can drown in a sort of self-loathing for things that were done in days gone by which they would never do today. That is fashion or perception.

I say to my noble friend who will answer this debate that when we talk about history, we should try to remember that there is not a right answer. There are merely answers that will give some help and understanding. Is it a narrative guide to what happened in the past or is it an academic discipline? On using history to discover other things, I had a moment from my nine year-old daughter, who asked, “What is rape?”. I said, “Why do you want to know?”. She said, “Boudicca’s daughters were raped by the Romans”. That was a slightly less worrying reason for being asked that question than many I can think of.

Once you use history for various parts of education, you will always have to make sacrifices. The sacrifice that you will ultimately have to make if you teach more history is whether we should teach more English and maths. We all know that English and maths is appalling and has never been as good as it was—as it always was in my youth and, indeed, my mother’s youth, apparently.

English is a very difficult language to learn because of its two origins—French and German, thanks to the fact that the English were ruled over by French kings for several hundred years—which is probably one of the reasons. Perhaps history can help us with that. There is always a problem somewhere in the curriculum. Ever since we have had a national curriculum, there has been a constant cry to spend more time on the pet subject of the person speaking at the time. Recently, we have heard about nutrition, parenting, English is always coming up and now history. We must make a limit on this. History must be fit in as a coherent part of that whole. We will never get it right. A degree of flexibility may be important in the approach but if we say that there is one right way and one wrong way, all we will do is set up another row, which, after all, may be what the professional historians want.

14:16

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Luke for securing today’s important debate. As previously outlined by the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell and Lady Walmsley, history is thankfully back in fashion. People are spending time researching their family history on the internet, and “A History of Ancient Britain” and “Mixed Britannia” are just some of the 36 episodes of historical programming available today on BBC iPlayer. I do not approach this debate as a TV producer, professional educationalist or historian but merely as the recipient of inspired history teaching at GCSE and A-level.

However, at the age of 18 I would have been a disappointment to many in your Lordships’ House. I had no overall timeline of British history. I would have struggled to give the correct century for the Battle of Waterloo; I had not covered a world war; and I just thought that it was quite curious that some borders in Africa happened to be straight lines. I know that I am not alone in that experience, as friends of mine spent a new-year holiday watching the boxed set of Simon Schama’s TV series “A History of Britain” back to back.

Over many years now, I have been privileged to know some of Britain’s black and ethnic-minority communities. I have watched as politicians and commentators have flailed around with concepts like multiculturalism and trying to redefine Britishness. Obviously the teaching of history in schools is not a silver bullet and I am not for one minute suggesting that we make teachers responsible for national identity. But I have become convinced that inspired teaching of our national story is an essential element in forming our national identity, which includes the English story and the multicultural story.

I say the “English story” deliberately. As a wise friend of mine said, people identify as British Asians, not English Asians. The teaching of the English story in schools is essential to the British identity and it has been, until recently, the missing part. Why is that? It should be simple—start perhaps with King Alfred and tell the narrative. But many of the English still do not know how to, or some say are not willing to, deal with parts of the national story.

In 2007, I was involved in organising an event to commemorate the bicentennial of the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act. Again, politicians and commentators seemed unsure about how to handle the anniversary. Is it a celebration? Is it a commemoration? Do we apologise? This lack of national peace over contentious events does little to assist our history teachers who have to teach this without making white children feel bad and black children feel angry. It is not an easy task. As if the Empire and the transatlantic slave trade were not difficult enough, in the post-9/11 American response, President George W Bush saw fit to use the word “crusade”. I think many of the English wanted to go and hide. But national peace with our history will not come if children are not even taught the basic content of it. Analysis of events you do not even know about is of course impossible.

Simon Schama, the Government’s adviser on the national curriculum, puts it like this:

“Without this renewed sense of our common story—one full of contention not self-congratulation—we will be a poorer and weaker Britain”.

I believe we have been poorer and weaker as a people who do not know their own story and identity are more vulnerable to malevolent influences such as the EDL and the BNP.

In some senses Britain has always been multicultural as we are made up of four nations. Over the last 60 years, however, Britain has sought to include millions of people who often have a different heritage, culture and tradition. Without a strong English story being taught and known, who knows what these newer communities were expected to integrate with? However, the change in the British population means that the teaching of the nation’s history in schools is a more varied and perhaps a more challenging task. We all need to know why Britain is the way it is.

I remember one sunny afternoon at Hampton Court Palace when I happened to notice that virtually all the visitors were white. This caused me to reflect, and I realised that I felt connected to the history I was seeing there because my ancestors, whoever they were, were around at the time of Henry VIII. I did wonder, however, if the same could be said for some of my black friends. Maybe not, because the history of their ancestors at that time would of course be elsewhere. Some British black people will feel just as connected as I do but many will not. As a young black Londoner, Sam Kamasu, said to me only yesterday, young black people are not engaging with history as much as they should. Black youth in particular has such a multilayered history because black is such a large cluster—African and Caribbean, for instance. Many young people from this group struggle to find what history to connect with, especially second and third-generation migrants. At times they might find it difficult to identify with current course content. Allowing young people to shape their historical learning by choosing the content from earlier in the academic system may contribute to them being more inspired to keep on learning”.

I would ask the Minister to take this suggestion of allowing more choice in the content of the curriculum to Simon Schama, the Government’s adviser, and to those within Britain’s ethnic minorities whom Mr Schama and of course the department will be consulting with. Although many people acknowledge that the content of the curriculum has improved over recent years, many still feel that it does not appreciate the contribution of or tell the stories of those from Britain’s newer communities. This gap is being filled by initiatives such as Black History Month.

I learnt much about the sacrifice of Commonwealth soldiers in World War 2 from speeches by the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, and novels such as Small Island by Andrea Levy. The Caribbean islanders were apparently never conscripted but chose to fight. It is stories like this that Britain’s Caribbean community want emphasising in the nation’s classrooms.

It is only since joining your Lordships’ House that I have had to begin speaking publicly about multiculturalism and diversity. In my previous role, I would always ask members of Britain’s black community to do this, not least because it is their tale often to tell. “My family history ends with a ship”, said Bishop Wayne Malcolm in 2007 to a dumbstruck audience of 800 people, including the current Prime Minister. “Thank you for your ancestors’ bravery and courage for bringing Christianity, healthcare and education to Ghana. Without their sacrifice, my family and I would not be where we are today”. That is my summary of Reverend Kingsley Appiagyei’s words to MPs, peers and councillors at a training event. Many had never before heard Britain’s contentious missionary history so described.

These perspectives and the courageous stories of migration to the UK need telling in the nation’s classrooms. I wonder if inviting different people into schools to tell their and their families’ stories would aid our history teachers as well as building community relationships. I would be grateful if the Minister would consider this suggestion.

Simon Schama is right. We cannot be self-congratulatory but we may find that some of those most affected by our past are more at ease and forgiving about what happened than the English might expect or indeed deserve. So I would suggest that Britain’s colonial history and the current heritage of the population necessitates that the national history taught in our classrooms contains strands of world history. Rightly or wrongly, Britain has been on the world stage and people came to live here as a result. This could be a tremendously exciting curriculum.

To conclude, it may seem too much perhaps to some people to link teaching history in schools, as I have done, to our national identity but I pray in aid the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, who in his book The Home We Build Together argues for the need for a fragmented Britain to build a covenantally based society; one based on a mutually binding promise to one another sustained by loyalty, fidelity and faithfulness. He argues that a covenantally based society would,

“integrate diversity into national unity without asking anyone to abandon their independence or identity”.

How does the noble Lord suggest such covenantal societies achieve this lofty goal? They tell a story.

So if telling our story in the nation’s classrooms and through the media and around our dinner tables will give us anything like the strong sense of national identity the Jewish people around the world have retained, despite persecution and often living as a diaspora, it is a task well worth undertaking.

14:27

[Lord Morgan]

My Lords, history needs defence in Parliament. It has been ill served by parliamentarians in recent years. One of the many reasons why I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Luke, for an excellent Motion is that it enables us to make amends.

New Labour served history ill. It was unaware of the historical dimension. The essential quality of New Labour was that it was new—therefore. the past dealt with the old and therefore it was of less significance. That is not true of the two Labour leaders whose biography I had the privilege of writing—Lord Callaghan and Michael Foot. Jim Callaghan was very interested in history, particularly naval history. Michael Foot wrote a famous book on the politics of Queen Anne. They had a sense of history. So, too, did my famous countryman Nye Bevan; he did not have much schooling and did not go to university but had his famous story about how he would walk the hills known to the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, above Tredegar. When he was lost he would turn to see where he had come from. The moral, said Nye, was that if you want to know where you are going you want to know where you have come from.

The present coalition is not much better. We have heard about the difficulties in schools where history is marginalised in the curriculum. We heard last week about how university funding for the teaching of history has been severely cut back, with serious effects on historical research. So history needs defending and yet it has, as so many noble Lords have said, huge appeal, growing journals and great appeal on television, particularly, I hope, when presented by professional historians and not by television personalities.

I never taught in a school, so to that degree I am totally unqualified to speak. I speak, perhaps, as a parent. The most successful course that my daughter did at her comprehensive school in Wales was one on social protest in Wales between 1800 and 1914. I believe it was written by one of my former pupils; perhaps I should declare an interest. It was very effective for many reasons, which produce some wider conclusions. First, it was about social history and change within society, particularly change in local society. You could see the toll houses or whatever the artefacts from the conflicts described were.

Secondly, it was covered through primary documents. It was very valuable for schoolchildren to look, for example, at some of the pamphlets of protest from that period.

Thirdly, it covered a decent span of time. I very much respond to what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said on this. It covered the whole of the 19th century, indicating that history should not be a pick and mix or based on snippets and soundbites. You should be able to study a problem over a prolonged period.

Fourthly, it was also about conflict. I do not want to be misunderstood on this but history is a record of collision—of colliding ideas, classes and social and political movements. We just lost the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Hurd. I wanted to mention Sir Robert Peel’s career, of which the noble Lord wrote, which was about conflict over Catholic emancipation and the Corn Laws. It is very important that a history course for children should make the point that out of conflict can grow consensus. How was it, after those people were shot down outside the Westgate Hotel in Newport, that the Chartists’ demands were, in the fullness of time, largely accepted? I do not mind history being about conflict. Better that it should be about that than a mindless conformism or a mindless patriotism. People have different views. To quote Nye Bevan again:

“You tell me your truth and I’ll tell you mine”.

That is the way to approach history.

The awareness of history is essential for the maturing and development of young people. It is accessible to everybody. As one who has spent—I am afraid—the past 50-odd years of my life writing and teaching history, it is important that I should always bear in mind that it is for everybody, not just for other historians. Outreach is very important. I always commend the Historical Association and never turn down an opportunity to speak to it, even if it is to 10 men and a dog on a wet night in Manchester. It is important to approach your audience in that open way, and to look at history in the round and at its artefacts. I enormously commend the work of National Heritage, chaired by my noble friend Lady Andrews, and, in particular, the work of the People’s History Museum in Manchester, where you see documents and archives side by side with the physical artefacts of working-class history. It is nearly adjacent to the site of Peterloo, to which my noble friend Lady Bakewell referred.

There are many reasons to study history. It is fun; it stimulates curiosity; it is infinitely varied and colourful. It is a good intellectual training. It is not just a soft option for, as it were, would-be Guardian readers of the future. It is a powerful intellectual test. How do you know things? What is the evidence? How do you compare different kinds of evidence? When you consider such matters you do not need jargon. I am not so sure about some of my medieval colleagues but you do not need jargon; you can say it in plain English that everybody can understand. You do not need physical apparatus; you need only a working mind. History is available to all sentient beings.

As other noble Lords have said, history teaches a sense of perspective and change over time. This is true of even the contemporary history that some of us are said to teach. In even the most recent period, that is the essential sense that you must convey. You should extend it to everything—not just to anniversaries such as the 50th anniversary of some famous event but to all the experiences of daily life. For schoolchildren daily life becomes alive if you stimulate the historical sense and it can be linked to the past. The greatest of all historians, Edward Gibbon, observed that his period in the Hampshire Grenadiers was not irrelevant to the historian of the Roman legions and the decline of the empire.

History gives children a sense of identity—of where they belong and who they are. Other countries are aware of this. In my wife’s country, France, people would be astonished that history is not a compulsory part of our curriculum, as it is so powerfully there. History also gives a sense of a many-sided identity. People in this country have many identities. I have spent much of my career writing the history of Wales and the history of Britain and the north Atlantic side by side. It is interesting to see a different sense of relevance. For example, the Blue Books controversy of 1847, which is probably unknown to most of my audience and never mentioned in books on British history, is perhaps the most important event in 19th and 20th century Welsh history in stimulating a sense of nationality.

One must look at and reassess identity, not only because new research is being done and new facts released, but because you are writing within a society that is itself changing. Therefore, the questions to do with the past that you are interested in are constantly changing. The noble Baroness who preceded me spoke very interestingly on multiculturalism and cultural identity. That is clearly an area where questions that are different from traditional themes have been posed. A few years ago there was an interesting series of commemorations to do with the ending of the slave trade in 1807. How refreshing it was to see that an awareness of the multicultural society led to understanding that it was not simply the work of a few benevolent white middle-class Englishmen. It was in fact a dynamic process in which black men and women also participated, which was as much a part of the great process of liberation as what was done in England.

History is the basis of a civilised society. A famous historian, JR Seeley said that it was “past politics”. It is much more than that. It is capacious and contains multitudes. It is a mosaic of changing ideas, cultures and social formations. This should be reflected—I hope it is—in the way that history is taught in schools. I hope schools are not afraid of being conceptual and looking at the history of ideas. If we look at and celebrate Magna Carta in three years’ time, I hope we do not approach it simply from the bad King John—or even the good King John—point of view, but from the ideas of human rights and the discussion of human rights down the centuries. Yesterday I took part in a debate on the terrorism prevention Bill. A brisk course in human rights would be instructive for the Front Benches on both sides of your Lordships’ House.

Finally, history appeals to the most powerful of instincts: memory. The French are very aware of memory, not just the individual memory but the public memory—what the famous historian Pierre Nora called lieux de mémoire, or the sites of memories that have colonised and infiltrated the present. I hope history in schools can capture memory in its widest sense.

I began with a fellow countryman, Aneurin Bevan. I finish with another, a great friend of mine, who I think taught my noble friend Lady Andrews. If the House will indulge me, Professor Gwyn Alfred Williams observed, “Beth yw hanes ond cof cendl?”. What is history but the memory of a nation? How right he was.

14:40

[Baroness Benjamin]

My Lords, I too thank my noble friend Lord Luke for securing this debate as I have always maintained that in order to shape our future we must look into our past. The lessons of history are a valuable road map of how events and changes in society have affected the world we live in today. It is often said that we can learn from history and avoid making the same mistakes twice. The only problem I have with this is that many leaders and Governments around the world fail to take an even cursory look at a history book before plunging their countries and populations into catastrophic wars and devastating economic events.

Recent history is frequently airbrushed and adjusted to suit political and ideological ends. I find this deeply worrying because some of today’s history books do not tell the full catalogue of events. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, I am personally concerned with the documentation of black history and that which applies to the diverse nature of Britain and the reasons why we have become such a rich multicultural society. The recent BBC2 television series “Mixed Race Britain” is, I believe, a landmark piece of television. It has made me aware of part of our history that I never knew had taken place. The programme is brilliantly researched and brilliantly documented. It reminds us of some of the most horrific episodes of racism in our recent history. It tells of Chinese fathers and husbands torn from the bosoms of their English wives and children in dawn raids and deported for no good reason, and of curfews forbidding black people to be out after dark. Yes, this all happened here in Britain less than a lifetime ago.

I have always gone to great lengths to explain to anyone who will listen that immigration to this country did not start with the Windrush, as many people seem to believe, and as the media continue constantly to reinforce. In 17th-century paintings by Hogarth we see the diverse nature of London, and yet it is rarely reflected in our history books that there has been diversity here since Roman times.

In 1987, October was established as Black History Month here in Britain to celebrate and acknowledge the contribution of black people, and to educate and inform society about the important part that black people have played in history. To celebrate, over the past few weeks I have been touring schools across the country, speaking to children in both urban and rural areas about the experiences of those who came to the UK from the British Empire. I make them aware that there were thousands of people from Africa, India, China and the Caribbean here in Britain long before the 1950s. I explain how in Nelson's fleet many black sailors manned the ships; how in Devon there are graveyards with African names carved on the tombstones; how millions of people from Africa, the Indian sub-continent and Asia fought for Britain in the First and Second World Wars, the Boer War, and the Crimean War, in which not only Florence Nightingale but Jamaican-born Mary Seacole nursed British soldiers. The children I speak to absorb this information like sponges. It is a delight to see their minds opening up to history.

I always find it amazing that so many films and television programmes fail to show the involvement of any of these groups of people when portraying these historic moments. Time and time again, with very few exceptions, films depicting the Elizabethan or Victorian eras fail to show people of colour as part of history. Even the story of the abolition of slavery frequently assigns the success of the campaign to William Wilberforce and his associates, often airbrushing out the black abolitionists who campaigned alongside them, as the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, highlighted just now. I find it sad, disheartening and frustrating that writers, researchers and directors fail to research past events correctly and truthfully and are therefore in effect changing history. That is why the teaching of accurate recent history in schools is so vital. If our young people grow up without learning and understanding history then we are making a terrible mistake, because the social make-up of our society is shaped by recent history. What vital lessons will be missed by our future leaders if they are not taught recent history in the classroom, history which is affecting their lives?

Some of this history may be unpleasant. It may make us feel ashamed or guilty. But it must never be brushed under the carpet. Imagine if we allowed significant occurrences, violent conflicts, world-changing political events, and the most evil and shocking atrocities of mankind's past, to be forgotten or erased from our history: the African Holocaust where millions of Africans died in enslavement, stripped of their religion, language and culture; the Jewish Holocaust of Hitler’s Third Reich; the fall of the Berlin Wall; the assassinations of Martin Luther King and President John F. Kennedy; the Vietnam War; and most recently, the horrific events of 9/11, the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war. These episodes must never be forgotten.

I produced a television series recently called “Statues and Monuments”. While we were filming a statue in central London a woman came up and said, “Why are you filming the statue of that man? He was a monster. What he did was evil. It should be torn down”. I replied, “No. We have to remember what he represents, so that it can never happen again”. We must never burn our history books. Our young people must be taught our past, so they will never make those same mistakes again.

History is one of the most important subjects in the curriculum and it must continue to be taught in the hope of securing a more peaceful future. If some of our leaders over the past 50 years had spent more time studying history, how different things might be. The world might not be in the wounded state it is today.

I love history and I loved studying history at school. I took a delight in wallowing in it because it gave me the opportunity to delve into the past with an inquisitive mind and to broaden my knowledge of the world. It inspired me to try to make a difference to our society. That love for history still exists today. I believe we must encourage all children and reach out and hand them the opportunity to study history. We must not deprive them of the rich lessons of the past. I ask the Minister to tell us how the Government will ensure that the teaching of history, including black history, remains a core subject for children of all cultures and all backgrounds throughout their time at school, to enable them to leave this world a better place than they found it.

14:50

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I, along with other noble Lords, would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Luke, for securing a debate on this important subject. I have to declare an interest, or perhaps more accurately a passion, as a practising professional historian, and acknowledge that I am the secretary of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Archives and History. Perhaps I may say something briefly about that. One of the greatest pleasures of that role was the fact that earlier this year, the all-party group decided to make an award to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Swynnerton, who spoke earlier in the debate, and Professor Eric Hobsbawm, acknowledging the tremendous contribution they have made to the study of history in this country.

I want briefly to draw attention to the fact that it is often said that we are a parochial people. Actually, one of the most striking things about this country is the way in which, more than any other country in the world, we produce major historians of other people’s countries. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, is a striking example of this. It is an indication of the fact that the accusation of parochialism in that respect is entirely false.

However, today I want to make the case for more teaching of British history in our schools, and I want to make it with some care. I accept in part the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, earlier in the debate that the school timetable is inevitably limited and other subjects have to be accommodated, and I suspect that it will be a struggle to find more time for history. But the content of what is being taught in our schools at the moment is a real issue. I also want to make clear the spirit in which I approach the issue of the teaching of British history in our schools. A diary entry for 13 September 1975 in John Rae’s memoir—he was the headmaster of Westminster School and one of our progressive public school headmasters—goes as follows:

“I am disturbed to read a series of articles in the Times Educational Supplement arguing that as Britain is now multicultural, schools should no longer pass on a monocultural tradition. What nonsense. If the history and literature of this country were watered down to suit ethnic minorities, the United Kingdom would be little more than a geographic expression”.

It would be easy for me to say in the aftermath of the speeches of the noble Baronesses, Lady Berridge and Lady Benjamin, that that is a very defensive and negative reaction. In fact, when I talk about the importance of teaching more British history in our schools, I want to make it clear that I do so entirely in the spirit of the two speeches we have just heard. But it is important to remember that, as his diary reveals, John Rae was an SDP voter at the time and saw himself as a progressive, as well as to recall the important changes that have occurred in our thinking about modern British history since then. It is also important to note that there can be no question of having a modern British history that does not acknowledge the multicultural realities of our society.

A couple of weeks ago I went to the University of Cambridge to give the first lecture on modern British history at a graduate seminar. I talked afterwards to dons and fellows of colleges, one of whom was a senior historian not born in this country, but taught and raised in a major European country. He has worked in Cambridge for the last few years. From his vantage point as a European, that historian expressed concerns about the way in which our undergraduates are now equipped as they arrive at university, even great universities such as Cambridge and Oxford:

“There is no notion of the wider meaning of Britishness—Scotland, Wales and Ireland besides England—let alone the Anglo world of the Empire. This is manufacturing parochialism and it is altering the collective memory of where this country comes from”.

The truth is that we have ended up manufacturing a certain form of parochialism, but the students all know about Hitler and world wars. I think that this is a real problem which we have to face up to. It is important to understand that if we want to teach people the virtues of tolerance as against intolerance, there are plenty of examples of this from our own British political history. If we want to teach people the importance of the equality of citizenship in our country, the struggle for Catholic emancipation is in its way as significant as the struggle for civil rights in the United States. It is important that people learn the lessons as they occurred in our own society.

It is also very important that the current debate does not become politicised. When we talk about the need for more British history, there is a danger that it becomes a kind of parody argument in which apparently those of us who are concerned about the subject want to hear more about kings and queens, make people learn more dates and so on. That is presented against the exciting and interesting things to be learnt by studying Hitler. This is truly a parody. In fact, within the historical profession at the moment there is a burgeoning consensus around the issue. It is important to avoid a false right/left debate on the subject. There are Conservatives—the noble Lord, Lord Luke, remarked on the failure to understand who Churchill was in our history—who are concerned about the knowledge of British history among our young people, but it is also the case that Tristram Hunt, probably the most distinguished historian in the new Labour intake in the other place and the great biographer of Engels, is on the record as saying that we now need more British history in our schools.

It is absolutely vital that we do not have a sterile right/left debate, one that has already started to a degree in the London Review of Books. There is actually a burgeoning consensus among historians, and it is absolutely vital that we acknowledge that if there is a patriotic tradition in this country, it is of the left as well as of the right, and of the centre. We cannot have more history about Nelson and Wellington without Peterloo and the Tolpuddle martyrs. I heartily endorse everything that was said by the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, about conflict and consensus. There is no need to get involved in a false argument. I conclude by asking a question. Is there a case for a national council of historians to advise on these matters? One of the remarkable things about the British historical profession is that it is very good and has a tremendous range of scholars working within it. Probably what happens on the whole in our schools does not fully reflect the actual quality of work that goes on among British historians and their commitment to knowledge of the past. There is the possibility to avoid sterile polemics and to proceed on the basis of understanding and agreement. I hope it is something that the Government might give just a little thought to.

14:57

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I express gratitude to my noble friend Lord Luke for initiating this debate, and I declare an interest as a graduate in medieval history. I was going to tell the same sad tale told by my noble friend Lord Luke concerning the seven year-old boy on the Tube. I would add only this. Only this morning I spoke to the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, who thought that the boy who did not know what the Navy was, was in fact aged nine, which makes it somewhat more shocking. It was suggested during the ensuing lively conversation on the Tube that the noble Lord should continue his journey in order to enlighten further passengers on naval history. He is not in his place, so I can only assume that he remains on the Circle Line.

That is an extreme example of the decline in the importance and value of teaching history in schools. The publication in 2007 of the Ofsted report entitled History in the Balance and subsequently History For All, published in 2011, focus on the problems. First, there are the positive signs. The 2011 report shows that history teaching in 63 out of 83 primary schools and 59 out of 83 secondary schools surveyed was outstanding. It was also noted that since the 2007 report, greater use of ICT among pupils engendered more interest and facilitated more self-learning in history. History as an optional course is better taught at key stage 4 and in the sixth form, with the numbers of students increasing. This is reflected in the increase in demand for history courses at UK universities.

However, there remain some fundamental underlying problems. At primary school stage, the 2007 report found that key stage 2 pupils made slow progress in history, a subject too often neglected in favour of literacy and numeracy. There was no discernible improvement highlighted in the 2011 report. Furthermore, teachers were found to lack confidence in teaching history, based on a lack of specific subject knowledge. In some primary and secondary schools, teaching fell short in providing a clear chronology of events, a timeline linking major events through the millennia to provide a perspective.

Schools remain too parochial in focusing on English history to the detriment of the history of Scotland, Ireland and Wales, and indeed the rest of the world. Episodic teaching is introduced too early in the curriculum. With some trepidation, my views differ from the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and my noble friend, Lord Cormack, in that I believe it is important to have a great depth of knowledge of the history of the great continents in addition to that of the UK. For example, how can we understand the relative decline of the USA if we do not understand the recent rise in influence of China and India?

The major problems remain at key stage 3. In the maintained sector, only 30 per cent of pupils study history after the age of 14, with even fewer after the age of 16, as the subject becomes optional in marked contrast to many European countries. History is marginalised—and too early—in favour of vocational subjects. The 2011 report pointed out that major disruptive curriculum changes at key stage 3 impacted negatively on 14 out of 58 secondary schools surveyed. In some schools at A-level there is an overdependence on the set texts, which stifles independent research, leaving pupils ill prepared for higher education where research and analytical skills are required.

A crucial question is: how important is the teaching of history in schools in the context of the demand to teach key subjects such as maths and English in addition to the provision of some vocational training? Its importance cannot be overestimated. The historian Anthony Beevor has stated:

“Without an understanding of history we are politically, culturally and socially impoverished”.

His own historical masterpiece entitled D-Day is an outstanding example of a readable tale focusing on the lead up to D-Day and its aftermath written from the Axis and Allied perspective. It is well researched, written wholly objectively and provides a moving human perspective on the characters of the leaders and the decisions made at the time.

History teaching stands proud in providing the foundation skills for a range of related university courses, including sociology, politics, international relations and economics. Vocationally, it also provides a basis for studying law, for entry to the Civil Service and the private sector. History teaches us how to research, analyse and assimilate information and draw our own conclusions from decisions made in the past. These skills are invaluable for careers where writing reports or making presentations is essential.

History is interesting and there is a need to bring it alive for pupils in schools. Edmund Burke wrote:

“History consists for the greater part of the miseries brought upon the world by pride, ambition, avarice, revenge, lust, sedition, hypocrisy, ungoverned zeal and all the train of disorderly appetite”.

On this basis, if there were a Richter scale for excitement, history should surely be ranked 10, well above reality TV programmes or the PlayStation.

It is how history is taught that is so important. There is a need for improved teacher training in this respect and better subject-specific training. More creativity is also required in schools for relating history teaching to a link with the local community, as the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, has pointed out. Last week in this House during a Question on war memorial gardens, the noble Lord, Lord Lee of Trafford, wisely suggested that schools adopt a local war memorial to allow pupils to learn and understand its local importance.

In conclusion, I ask the Minister two questions. First, what plans are in place for substantially improving the training of teachers in history? Secondly, are there plans for increasing the age threshold for the compulsory teaching of history? Arnold Toynbee famously stated that history is,

“just one damned thing after another”.

This is a truism, but it masks the positive fact that the study of history builds up an invaluable mental library to help us lead our own lives better. We must start at least by ensuring that all nine year-old boys know what the Navy is.

15:05

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House is indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Luke, for securing this important debate, which has brought forward a range of stimulating and informative contributions from which we all benefit—the Minister in particular, I hope. I have some remarks to address to him specifically.

Let me first of all declare an interest—an interest in history. I cannot declare any other; it is more than a decade since I participated in an education debate due to other obligations in government, and it is almost 50 years since I taught history in higher education. It seems a very long time ago. What I delight in today is the variety of contributions. There are some that I have warmed to very strongly and some that I have reservations about which I will make clear in a moment.

What has come through so strongly is the importance of history. The Minister ought to appreciate that this debate about history in schools and proposals for the future is of the greatest significance. We have certainly put to rest Henry Ford’s statement that “history is bunk”. Henry Ford said that in a particular context to emphasise the new technology in the age of the motor car, but in Detroit he leaves behind a museum of history which is almost unparalleled elsewhere in its range of exhibits, and is proof positive of the value of bringing to the American people—and people from the rest of the world who have had the privilege of going there—a real interest in the development of our technological and industrial history, so even Henry did not really think that history was bunk.

I warm rather more to the fact that history is the memory of our civilisations, of our country and of mankind. Without an understanding of the past, how can we make intelligible the nature of the world in which we live? History is also partial, selective, subjective and determined by interpretation. That is not to say that good historians—certainly not the historians who grace this debate today—are in any way shape or form disrespectful of facts. Facts are sacred, but often the problem for historians is agreement about the facts, and in particular the interpretation to be put upon them. It is important that we recognise that history is evidence-based and the sacredness of the facts, but also that all who study history need not just a narrative but an appreciation of the way in which the historian works. It will not do to think that we can hand down easy truths in areas where inevitably history is about disputation, uncertainty and interpretation. That is why the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is able to take a party of schoolchildren through the building and glory in the depiction of the past events which it identifies. It is also why I can take a party of schoolchildren and identify my criticisms of some of the choices made. Why certain figures are in the Royal Gallery and others are not is a judgment reflective of the 19th century when this Palace was created. The depiction of history through our various Lobbies is a distinct interpretive act. I am not against it; I love this place. I am not against anything which helps to communicate to people the sense of our history. However, I am also at pains to ensure that people recognise that there is more than one dimension to the island’s story as portrayed in this building.

That is why my concern in this debate is that the Government purport to be reaching judgments with regard to teaching in schools. A mightily important obligation is on the Secretary of State and his fellow Ministers when they reach these judgments. We should have some anxiety. After all, we do not have a Secretary of State who hides his light under a bushel when it comes to a commitment to a set of values. We all know the ideological stance which he has taken with regard, for example, to Atlantic Bridge. We also know the extent to which he is determined to be proactive. I ask merely this of the Minister: will he ensure that the level and range of advice that the Secretary of State obtains on this most important of scholastic areas is broader than it looks to be at present? Like everyone else in this House, I have delighted in the work of Simon Schama. I enjoyed hugely his narrative account of the French Revolution. For those of us who had weltered under highly tendentious and challenging interpretations of the revolution in which, on the whole, narrative development was limited and the identification of a particular perspective was more important, Simon Schama’s book came like a breath of fresh air and renewed for many a great interest in the revolution. However, it is a narrative. It is an account which is highly challenged by other historians. That is why, although I have nothing but respect for Simon Schama as a historian, if it is suggested that he is the historian primarily advising the Secretary of State, this House should express anxiety.

This has been a debate which ought to have warmed the hearts of all of us who are concerned about history in all the great dimensions that have been put forward from such authoritative sources, but it is also a debate which is topical and relevant—that is why the noble Lord, Lord Luke, should be congratulated on raising it. It means that the Government must be fully charged of the fact that history cannot just be the concept of an easy, consensual narrative of the island’s story. History is far more complex and challenging than that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, identified in her contribution, and we ought to respect that in any judgments that we reach.

15:15

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

My Lords, as I come at the end of the Back-Bench contributions to this debate, much of what I might have said has already been said. Nevertheless, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Luke, for initiating the debate. From the speeches that we have heard, it seems that there is little consensus in this House except on two things: first, that history is very important; and, secondly, that it is in financial crisis—it is a problem about provision both in schools and in universities.

In schools, as many noble Lords have said, there is a need to impart a sense of continuity and sequence of the past. However, as my noble friend Lord Addington said, history is now so vast that it would take almost a lifetime—you would certainly have to enrol in the University of the Third Age—to complete an in-depth study from the early times to the present.

We must get away from the notion that history had a golden past. My own history education lacked any sense of continuity or sequence. I learnt about the Romans and the Vikings, then jumped to the Tudors and the Stuarts. Finally, at A-level, I studied 19th and 20th-century European and British—by which I mean essentially English—history. As a result, I knew very little about the medieval period and the 18th century, and virtually nothing about the histories of Ireland, Scotland and Wales or the United States. Never once in those far-off days when we took O-level and A-level in history were we required to examine original sources. History education has come a long way in recent years by requiring pupils at quite a young age and subsequently to learn how to use original sources. In my case, the fragmented and disjointed knowledge of history that I acquired was not at all unique. Others have mentioned that they had similar experiences.

The school curriculum, even if it cannot cover the whole course of history, should, as my good friend, the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, said, take sufficiently long a period so that one can convey a sense of sequence and development. That requires that history should be accorded a secure place in the syllabus at both primary and secondary levels. Michael Gove, the Secretary of State, has clearly recognised this.

The curriculum should not be chauvinistic or xenophobic, although I have to say—here I echo the reservations of the noble Lord, Lord Davies—that Mr Gove’s approach seems to hint at this. It should not concentrate just on monarchy, the military and empire. Rather, as many noble Lords have said, it should give an appreciation of other aspects. In a devolved kingdom, particularly, we should these days have a sense of the history of Ireland, Scotland and Wales if we are to maintain some sense of a United Kingdom. There have been many criticisms that recent and contemporary history predominates and that, as the noble Lord, Lord Bew, said, students come up to university knowing about Hitler but have not gone much further than that. In my experience when I was in Northern Ireland, my daughter took a GCSE in history and was compelled to take a paper in the history of Ireland. That stopped quite abruptly at 1919, for obvious reasons, so it is not always contemporary. In certain circumstances, you find that you are not allowed to look at more contemporary features.

As my noble friend Lady Benjamin and others have said, there must be a large focus on the UK’s position in the world. As was said earlier, if the habit of continuous military adventurism persists there is a strong case for giving a hefty dose of the history of the Middle East. Perhaps Afghanistan would make a good special paper at A-level and any intending candidates for cadetships at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst should be required to take that as a pre-requisite for application.

At university level, history is almost in extremis. As the debate in your Lordships’ House last week on the condition of the English universities illustrated, in speech after speech, the arts and humanities—of which history is a main constituent—were shown to be in dire straits. It is significant that in the Guardian today the Vice-Chancellor of the University of Cambridge, an eminent medical scientist, very eloquently comes out defending the arts, social sciences and the humanities as being equally vital alongside more vocational subjects and disciplines.

Not only is the teaching of history at risk but, as others have remarked, the quality of historical research is being jeopardised. It is research that nurtures university teaching which, in turn, informs and keeps fresh the teaching in schools. The future history teachers in our country are being short-changed, and will be increasingly so, by the parsimony of university funding. In every sense, history will not take kindly to the financial treatment currently being meted out to it. Along with others, I ask the Minister whether he is able to offer any crumbs of comfort that will convincingly provide grounds for a degree of optimism in this regard.

15:22

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Luke, for initiating this debate. He has raised some challenging questions about the future of history teaching and the need, which he rightly identified, to narrow the knowledge gap between rich and poor so that all children can excel. We have also, thankfully, had a measured and extremely well informed debate today. I did not realise that there were quite so many history teachers in your Lordships’ Chamber but I have certainly found the debate enlightening. I have also very much welcomed the tone in which the debate has taken place. All too often when these subjects are debated they can dissolve into myth and political discourse.

We have also had some passionate contributions about the wider role of history in establishing truth and fact. I particularly commend the exposition from my noble friends Lady Andrews and Lady Bakewell on the wider benefits of a good grounding in history. I also look forward to hearing the response of the noble Lord, Lord Hill, who I understand is also an expert on this subject. I am sure that he will also give a thoughtful and reflective analysis of the problems which we are now confronting.

We all understand the importance of history in helping us to understand progress, the development of our society and our place in the world today. We also recognise the academic and personal skills that flow from learning to analyse and question, and to differentiate between historical fact and fiction. As my noble friend Lord Morgan rightly pointed out, it gives a good intellectual training.

As several noble Lords pointed out and argued persuasively, it also gives us a sense of identity and belonging and creates a memory of a nation. It also sometimes, as the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, pointed out, scandalously writes some of our citizens out of history, and that cannot be tolerated. As politicians we are keenly aware that we need to learn from history and that the two disciplines are closely intertwined. We are also aware that even in the hands of the most careful practitioner history can be subjective and distorted. This is why individual politicians should be wary of interfering in the shape of the syllabus. I am very pleased that Michael Gove enjoyed studying history at school. He obviously enjoyed a particular style of teaching, and I have no doubt that it works well for some people, but this does not justify him recreating his own teaching experience in every school in the country. Surely he should, instead, be drawing upon the best professional advice as to how children learn effectively and the best academic experience of history teachers in the classroom. It may well be that the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Bew, of a national advisory body of historians could provide focus for this.

Several noble Lords have quoted Simon Schama, who is one of the advisers brought in to shape the new syllabus. I understand that he will be working with Andrew Roberts and Niall Ferguson, notable academics in their own right. They have been very vocal in their criticisms of the current teaching of history, so at least that has helped to provoke a debate. However, as my noble friend Lord Davies argued, they have a particular ideological focus, which is raising some concerns among teachers and parents. Particular alarm bells rang for me when I read that Niall Ferguson had created a war games video to teach young people about the Second World War. He described how his two young sons had enjoyed playing it, but that his daughter had shown no interest in playing war games. That is no surprise. I found myself thinking that Michael Gove might have been better advised to ask some women to join his team of advisers. They might have had a better idea of the sorts of issues which would inspire the imagination of young women in learning history.

Nevertheless, on some things the advisers are right. We all are concerned about the fall in take-up of history GCSE. While history remains a statutory part of the curriculum up to the age of 14, the numbers taking the subject beyond this have been reducing, as we have heard, with only 30 per cent of students taking the subject at GCSE in maintained schools. As both Ofsted and the Historical Association have identified, there are a number of reasons for this. First, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, rightly pointed out, there is a lack of specialist teaching in schools, leaving many young people with little or no teaching from history graduates trained to teach the subject. Of course, this problem becomes self-perpetuating as the lower numbers taking the subject to A-level and beyond affect the future supply of qualified teachers.

Secondly, there has been a reduction in the time allocated to the subject as the curriculum is squeezed with other priorities or history is combined into a more general humanities course in which the specifics of the discipline can be lost. Thirdly, there are restrictions placed on the subjects that some young people are able to study at GCSE, with history not being an option, or only available if other humanities are dropped. Finally, there are concerns about the inconsistency of exam boards regarding marking, course materials and the criteria for assessment, which puts some students off. So there are undoubtedly a number of structural problems with the curriculum offer which militate against a large uptake of history at GCSE. Incidentally, I am not sure that these problems will be solved by the introduction of the English baccalaureate, which specifies that only one humanities subject should be part of the award.

This issue of the time available to teach particular subjects is more fundamental than might at first appear. It may be that the previous Government allowed the curriculum to become too crowded, but there is always pressure, as we have heard, to add new and justifiable subjects to the list. Conversely, it is rare for anybody to make a case for a subject to be dropped from the curriculum; and just as that applies to the curriculum as a whole, it also applies with individual subjects. I have listened carefully today to the many persuasive contributions on what should be included in the history syllabus, and it would be easy to agree with everyone. Issues raised have included the significance of the French Revolution, the origins of the slave trade, our links with Afghanistan, the history of our relations with the Middle East; the need to understand people’s history, social history, local history, the history of the four UK nations, the history of English literature and art; the development of science and technology and the history of multiculturalism, to touch on just a few. I endorse all of those. They all have a legitimate place in the curriculum. However, we also need to be realistic about what can be achieved in, say, two hours a week up to year nine and maybe three hours a week at GCSE over a 38-week academic year. It is simply not possible to have both the breadth and the depth that we might all desire.

This dichotomy has led to one of the central failings in the teaching of history, which is identified by Ofsted and on which we can probably all agree. It reported that pupils were being let down by a lack of chronological understanding of the subject. In particular, it reported that pupils at primary schools,

“knew about particular events, characters and periods but did not have an overview. Their chronological understanding was often underdeveloped and so they found it difficult to link developments together”.

I very much support the idea that a stronger strand of chronology should underpin the history syllabus, but this is very different from the Secretary of State’s apparent mission to return to learning dates by rote. At a time when our challenge is to excite pupils and capture their imagination about the past, there would be nothing more dull and uninspiring than to force feed them with dates of wars and of births and deaths of kings and queens.

It is an accepted fact among most educationalists that individual children have different techniques for learning and remembering. The real skill of a classroom teacher is to teach in such a way that every child can get the maximum benefit from the lesson. As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, pointed out, the current history syllabus meets many of the concerns that have been raised today. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, disagreed, but this matter can easily be resolved by looking at the facts. The Ofsted report was much more positive about the current history provision than we have been led to believe by some commentators. It is an area in which myths have been flourishing. Just as it is not possible to avoid being deported by owning a cat, it is equally not true that Henry VIII and Hitler are the only individuals studied in the syllabus. In fact, as we have heard, the syllabus is littered with leaders, explorers, inventors and dissenters. As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, rightly pointed out, on any named subject at any time, we always believe that it was taught better in the past and are nostalgic for the way that we were taught it at school.

[Lord Addington]

I am not nostalgic for the way that I was taught history.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

Perhaps many of the noble Lord’s colleagues remain so. However, we need to scrutinise objectively what is happening in the classroom. In its report earlier this year, History for All, Ofsted praised the teaching at key stage 2, describing pupils as having a,

“detailed knowledge derived from well-taught studies of individual topics”;

while at secondary level it described how,

“effective teaching by well-qualified and highly competent teachers enabled the majority of students to develop knowledge and understanding in depth”.

It went on to identify that students displayed,

“a healthy respect for historical evidence”,

and had the skills to apply critical judgment to support their analysis. Throughout the Ofsted report the skills of the specialist history teachers who knew their subjects well and were able to inspire their pupils were a common theme. Surely we should value and celebrate the contribution of these teachers rather than alarm them with talk of further upheaval.

In conclusion, I hope that the Minister agrees with me that there is a need, first, to tackle the structural reasons why history teaching is in decline and is fighting for space in the school week. Secondly, we need to look again at how the syllabus can be adjusted to allow the chronology and sweep of history to be better understood. Thirdly, we need to engage with history teachers, value what they achieve and listen to their ideas for reform. Politicians should refrain from meddling in an educational agenda fraught with ideological divides, and should perhaps also recruit some women to advise on the really significant events in history and how they might be taught. Then we might inspire a new generation of young people to study history, develop the skills of analysis and apply the lessons learnt so that they can better interpret their lives today.

15:35

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, it is with more than my usual trepidation that I rise to speak because there have been times this afternoon when I felt as though 30 years had rolled back and I had been at an undergraduate tutorial with an overdue essay. However, this debate has been extremely good and thought-provoking, and there has been a large amount of agreement on a lot of the key themes. Like other noble Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Luke for securing the debate, getting it off to such a good start and setting out the issues for us so clearly.

Everyone else seems to have been declaring an interest, so I had better do so. I must correct the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch—I am not an expert, but as a boy I was hooked by RJ Unstead’s Story of Britain, with those wonderful illustrations by Victor Ambrus. I still have my copy at home and I should be happy to share it with anyone who has not read it. I also remember as a boy being fascinated by an encyclopaedia’s picture of French aristocrats being taken off in a tumbrel, and one of Constantine XI fighting heroically on the walls of Constantinople. I suspect that it was an early sign of a lifelong commitment to lost causes, with which I persist to this day.

I started to read history at university but I am afraid I did not complete it because I did not have the sticking power—it was a PhD on Russian history with Norman Stone. However, it was in the 1990s that a stint at Downing Street opened my eyes to medieval history because it dawned on me that I was effectively working in a medieval court. For the first time, I realised why the role of Keeper of the Stool was such an important job because, as political secretary, I spent a lot of my time going round clearing up after powerful people.

I therefore share the views expressed by all noble Lords about the importance of history, which was set out so powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, and from another but equally important perspective by my noble friends Lady Benjamin and Lady Berridge. I think that there is agreement that history helps us to understand our common past, our shared values and our sense of national identity—a point made by my noble friend Lord Cormack, but underlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews. She correctly said that history teaching is more important than ever as our society becomes more varied. Understanding history helps us to make sense of the present, as has been argued by a number of noble Lords. It develops analytical skills and helps us to understand cause and effect—one of the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, underlined. History helps give us the ability to argue and enables us all to make connections. Everyone here is agreed on the importance of history as a subject.

We heard a number of examples of some of the things that people do not know about history. We heard about Churchill. I saw another survey that suggested that nearly half the young people aged between 18 and 24 did not know that Nelson commanded the fleet at Trafalgar and led it to victory. Nearly half did not know that the Romans built Hadrian’s Wall. That links to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, about the importance of British history. He made an extremely important point about the opportunity we have to avoid a false left/right divide on this. For most of the time in this debate we have managed to avoid that. I accept that it is impossible to dissociate history and the study of it from a political perspective. However, we have been discussing the chronology and the sequencing of history—some of the great events. Noble Lords may think that I am a mad optimist but it is possible to separate some of the facts of our history and of world history. My noble friend Lord Smith of Clifton made the important point that we increasingly need our children to have an awareness of world history. However, it is possible to separate an understanding of fact from interpretation. Interpretation is something that comes increasingly with age and knowledge, but there is a factual basis that we should be able to work hard to identify.

In terms of current take-up we know that, alongside geography and modern foreign languages, the number of pupils taking history has been falling. It is down from 39 per cent doing GCSE in 1995, to 30 to 31 per cent last year. The proportion taking A-level has been static and the number of students studying history at university has risen, but that rise is slower than the average increase in university enrolments generally. We also know that while just over 30 per cent of children in maintained schools took a history GCSE in 2010, nearly half of children in independent schools did so. That relates to a point well made by a number of noble Lords about the importance of making sure that all our children have a chance to study history, and that those from more disadvantaged backgrounds do not miss out on the opportunity to do so.

My noble friend Lord Younger of Leckie told us about the Ofsted report in 2010. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, also referred to it and was absolutely right to say that the report found much to commend in the teaching of history at both primary and secondary level and in the work that our teachers are doing. It found many examples of extremely good practice. I very much associate myself with that point of view.

The Ofsted report also said—and this point has been recognised and accepted on all sides of the House—that at primary level,

“some pupils found it difficult to place the historical episodes they had studied within any coherent, long-term narrative… Their chronological understanding was often underdeveloped and so they found it difficult to link developments together”.

They also commented that,

“the curriculum structure for primary schools was itself episodic”.

That links to some of the points made by my noble friend Lady Walmsley. The report recommended that pupils should study overview as well as in-depth topics. That relates to a point about bore-holes and breadth, raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews. Ofsted also thought, again relating to the important point raised by my noble friend Lady Walmsley, that primary school teachers needed more subject-specific continuous professional development opportunities and that all students in secondary schools should benefit from a significant amount of history until at least 14.

I felt there was broadly a shared analysis of what we think the main issues confronting us are. There are concerns about the bitty nature of the curriculum and a lack of sweep and chronological development, a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Morgan; about the support available to teachers to enable them to teach history well and more broadly; and about the time available in the timetable for teaching history, particularly at key stage 3. There is also some concern about the numbers of children who want to study history at GCSE level.

I will try to set out what the Government are doing in three broad areas: first, the curriculum; secondly, encouraging the take-up of history; and thirdly, support for teachers and initial teacher training. So far as the curriculum is concerned, we had an extremely good debate which flushed out some of the difficulties. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, talked about curriculum wars and the history of that; my noble friend Lord Addington talked about fashions. Both those points are well made. I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, agrees with our argument that, as the national curriculum developed, it has covered more subjects, prescribed more outcomes and taken up more school time than originally intended.

Overall, our intention through the curriculum review is to slim the curriculum down; to free up time in the school day; and to free teachers to use their judgment to design curricula that best meet needs of their pupils. We want the new national curriculum to be based on a body of essential knowledge that children should be expected to acquire in key subjects during their school career, to cover for all children their cultural and scientific inheritance—an important point was made about the importance of science and technology—to enhance their understanding of the world around them, and to expose them, if we can, to the best of what has been thought and written.

The review is being conducted in two phases. In the first phase, we are designing new programmes of study for those subjects—English, maths, science and PE—which we have already confirmed will continue to be a part of the national curriculum at all four key stages. We are also considering which of the other subjects that currently form the national curriculum, including history, should be part of the national curriculum in future and at which key stages. The second phase of the review, which will start in early 2012, will produce programmes of study for those other subjects which remain within the national curriculum. The review will also advise on whether non-statutory programmes of study should be published for any subjects that are not to be included in the new national curriculum.

The review began with a public call for evidence that invited views from all interested parties on what a new curriculum should look like. I understand that the call for evidence closed on 14 April; the results will be published in due course. There will be further widescale public consultation before any final decision is made. I agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, that it is important that there should be widespread discussion representing a range of views.

The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, specifically asked whether the EBacc is having any effect on encouraging the take-up of history. The Government think that a child's education is diminished without a sound understanding of history. We know that history, alongside some other subjects, has been in decline for a number of years. The Government believe that there are some academic subjects, the core subjects in the English baccalaureate—English, maths, the sciences, languages and humanity—in which too few pupils are achieving, or have even had the opportunity to study. As my noble friend Lord Luke pointed out at the beginning of the debate, the situation is worse for pupils on free school meals. The disparity between the percentage of those on free school meals who are taking the EBacc subjects—which the Russell Group of universities states are those that best equip children to take degrees in its universities—and others is very large. Only 4 per cent of children on free school meals achieved the EBacc subjects last year, whereas for children as a whole across the country, the figure was 16 per cent. We need to address that issue.

I know that all noble Lords believe that many more pupils have the potential to succeed in those subjects, and we feel that we should do everything that we can to help them have that opportunity. We know that pupils who have achieved the EBacc combination of subjects have proved more likely to go onto A-levels, have attempted a greater number of A-levels and have achieved better results. We are trying through the EBacc to allow parents and pupils to see for the first time how their school is performing against those key academic subjects. In doing so, we hope to encourage a greater number of schools to offer a broader set of academic subjects, which would include history, to more of their pupils.

The early indications are that the introduction of the EBacc is encouraging the take-up of history. Some research was carried out on behalf of the department by the National Centre for Social Research over the summer. That suggests that 39 per cent of pupils entering GCSEs in 2013 are expected to take history. If that turns out to be the case, that would be up by 8 per cent from this year and back to the level that it was that in 1995. Time will tell whether that turns out to be true, but I hope noble Lords who are keen, as we all are, to see more children carrying on with history up to the age of 16 will regard that as an encouraging sign.

That is linked with the important question about teacher supply and teacher training. The EBacc does have implications for teacher supply. If more children want to study history, we will need to have more history teachers. The modelling undertaken by the department to set future-year ITT places is taking that into account. I am told that there is currently healthy interest in training to become a history teacher. My noble friend Lady Walmsley rightly mentioned the importance of CPD, or continuing professional development. Our overall approach to that was laid out in our White Paper published in November 2010. In broad terms we are trying to improve the capacity for schools to take the lead for the training and development of teachers and to create more opportunities for peer-to-peer learning, which is what we have been doing this afternoon. Our approach is based on research that shows that teachers learn best through observing teaching and being observed and receiving feedback from other professionals. We are creating a new national network of teaching schools which will give outstanding schools the role of leading the training and professional development of teachers and head teachers so that all schools have better access to high-quality professional and leadership development. The first 100 teaching schools have already been established and we have a further 100 planned for April 2012. They will be the embodiment of our commitment to CPD and will run a range of programmes for schools, including in history, to help address some of these important issues.

Earlier this year we published an initial teacher training strategy which is out for discussion at the moment. That contains proposals for giving schools the opportunity to play a greater role in teacher training, the funding of ITT, toughening the entry criteria, and prioritising training most relevant to classroom practice. We are finalising proposals for initial teacher training in the light of responses we have received to that and we will publish a plan shortly. We believe overall, alongside work we are doing in looking at proposals for a single set of new standards for all qualified teachers, that these reforms, the network of teaching schools and a new set of teacher standards will improve the rigour and quality of teaching in all subjects, including history.

An interesting part of the debate was on issues around learning outside the classroom, enthusiasm and the importance of enthusiastic teachers, and accessibility. My noble friend Lady Berridge rightly talked about the importance of bringing outsiders in. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, talked about the kind of work that English Heritage and other organisations can do to enthuse and inspire children and bring history to life in a way that someone standing up in a classroom will not necessarily do. I do not think that helping children have a better sense of the chronology of the events in history needs to come from a dry as dust, learning by rote, going back to the 1950s approach to teaching. The development of the media and all kinds of new ways of learning that all of us, unfortunately, were not able to benefit from provide fantastic opportunities for children to become engaged in and get a love of history and be excited and inspired by it. Learning outside the classroom is extremely important and going to battlefields, visiting the Imperial War Museum and going to Dover Castle—which I would love to do one day if I am invited—are all ways that we can bring history to life. We think schools can work out how to do that but there is more the Government can do to make it easier for them to take pupils on trips by taking steps to reduce teachers’ fears of legal action for failures in the dreaded and sometimes mythical area of health and safety. We want teachers to be confident that they can take pupils to this kind of activity, and we will work with the Health and Safety Executive on that.

I remember reading a few years back pronouncements that history was dead. Today's debate shows that it is very much alive. We know that there are more history books being written and that there is more history on the television; we have heard about the interest people have in archaeology and in their own ancestry. As was said, history is full of ripping yarns. There is no doubting the passion and knowledge brought to us in today's debate. I do not share the knowledge of all noble Lords—for instance, that of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Swynnerton—but I hope that at least I share some of the passion expressed this afternoon. I will bring the debate to the attention of my honourable friend Mr Gibb, who is leading our curriculum review, and also to the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, whose commitment to history, as some noble Lords have mentioned, is well known.

The Government take this seriously. There is much more work to do, but I hope that we may have started to turn the corner. The timing of the debate, as the Government consider the national curriculum review, is excellent. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Luke on it once again, and on providing us all with the opportunity for the thoughtful discussion that we had.

15:56

[Lord Luke]

My Lords, this has been a most elevating afternoon. I very much enjoyed all the speeches and learnt a lot, which is always a good thing. The debate shows how important history is in the House. On a Thursday afternoon, the number of noble Lords who spoke was amazing, and I am extremely grateful to them. I will finish by saying that my noble friend Lady Benjamin summed up what I think about history when she said, “I love history”. I love history, too, and I am sure that is so for many noble Lords. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion withdrawn.

Legislative Reform (Industrial and Provident Societies and Credit Unions) Order 2011

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Motion to Approve

15:57

Moved By

[Lord Sassoon]

That the draft Legislative Reform Order laid before the House on 19 July be approved.

Relevant document: 18th Report from the Regulatory Reform Committee

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, industrial and provident societies—co-operatives as they are better known—and credit unions have made a long and invaluable contribution to our society. For centuries they have been a driving force for common endeavour and mutual support. From high street co-operatives to pubs and football clubs, from healthcare to agriculture and from education to local shops, co-operatives and credit unions are cornerstones of our communities.

The strength of the co-operative economy today, with more than £30 billion in turnover and more than 13 million members, is testimony to the trust and value that we place in them. Credit union membership continues to grow across Great Britain, enhancing the diversity of our financial services, with membership on track to exceed 1 million this year. Despite a difficult economic environment, credit unions continue to provide much needed finance and support to local people and communities. Co-operatives and credit unions are a key element of the coalition Government’s vision to empower local communities. Both will benefit from the changes introduced by the legislative reform order that we are debating today, which will reduce burdens and remove obstacles to enable them to grow and extend their services to new members.

The legislative reform order has been a long time in the making. Consultations with the mutual sector began in 2007, and co-operatives and credit unions took the lead in proposing measures designed to bring their regulatory and legislative frameworks into the 21st century. The proposals themselves fall into two parts: those applying to co-operatives and those applying to credit unions.

There are six proposals of benefit to co-operatives. The first abolishes the minimum age for membership and reduces it for those wishing to hold office. This will enable young people to engage more actively with their local co-op, and in some cases to become officers sitting on their local committees. The second removes the restriction on the maximum holding of non-withdrawable shares in a co-operative. This will enable co-operatives to raise capital more easily.

16:00

The other four proposals remove burdens and increase choice for co-operatives by: allowing them to choose their own year-end dates; removing the requirement to have interim accounts audited; permitting them to charge non-members for copies of their rules, while protecting the rights of existing members; and enabling easier dissolution. Taken collectively, these measures will have a positive impact in reducing burdens on co-operatives, removing unnecessary costs estimated to total £33 million, and delivering net benefits from improved access to capital of a further £7 million.

With respect to credit unions, the legislative reform order contains eight proposals. The first four enable credit unions to extend their membership base and serve a greater number of customers by: opening up the common bond requirements; removing the limit on non-qualifying members; and allowing bodies corporate to become members for the first time subject to a cap. These proposals will allow credit unions to serve a greater number of people by extending the membership base and enabling mergers to take place where this is considered appropriate. The fifth proposal allows credit unions to issue interest-bearing shares, which could encourage increased savings, helping to tackle chronically low rates of saving across the country, and which, in turn, could lead to greater lending.

The remaining proposals relax restrictions on share withdrawal, allow credit unions to charge an appropriate rate for providing ancillary services and remove the 8 per cent limit on dividends, unless the rules of the credit union provide otherwise. These proposals will substantively update credit union legislation and provide a welcome boost to the mutuals sector and its members. Such is the enthusiasm for these reforms that a recent survey by the Association of British Credit Unions identified that over 60 per cent of credit unions are intending to extend their geographic coverage once the LRO comes into effect.

As noble Lords are aware, the LRO was previously laid in Parliament in March 2010 and the Committees of both Houses recommended changes to the order prior to its approval. These recommended changes were: first, that the affirmative resolution procedure be used for any changes to the caps relating to corporate membership; secondly, for members to be required expressly to endorse a decision to abolish the 8 per cent limit on dividends; and thirdly, for the proposal enabling credit unions to charge a market rate for ancillary services to apply only to new members, and to be subject to a review after two years. I am pleased to confirm that each of these recommendations has been taken on board in the new draft order before the House today. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has recommended that the order is,

“in a form satisfactory to be submitted to the House for affirmative resolution”.

In conclusion, credit unions and co-operatives have been waiting a long time for this LRO to be made and many stand ready to take benefit of the order as soon as it takes effect. This LRO reflects our commitment to promoting the mutual and co-operative sector in Great Britain, ensuring that we enhance diversity in our financial services and that we support a sector that provides finance, employment and support for millions of people, including those hardest to reach and most in need of help. This legislative reform order will support and enable growth of co-operatives and credit unions and I look forward to hearing your Lordships’ views on these proposals. I very much hope that you will lend your support to these important reforms. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, today is International Credit Union Day and the theme for the celebrations is “Credit Unions Build a Better World”. It celebrates the important economic and social contributions credit unions make to their communities worldwide. I am vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Credit Unions and it is wonderful that we are debating and approving this statutory instrument today of all days.

As the noble Lord said, credit unions are financial co-operatives owned and controlled by their members. Credit unions in the UK manage over £600 million on behalf of over 900,000 people. The order before us today makes some very welcome changes. It was originally laid in similar form by the last Labour Government, as the noble Lord said, and I was delighted when the present Government sought to carry forward these much needed reforms. The order makes a number of sensible changes, such as allowing credit unions to pay interest on savings rather than a dividend. It allows them to provide services to community groups, attract investments and extend the services that they offer. That is all very welcome. I congratulate the Government on what they have done.

However, this is only one of a number of steps that the Government should be taking. Although the credit union sector in the UK is growing, it is still relatively small. With the right support, the potential for major expansion is all too evident. That expansion and growth would be of benefit to communities up and down the country. We must also remember that it is a sad fact that some of the most financially excluded citizens have to pay the highest price for credit, which we should all regret and want to work to eliminate. We have seen organisations on the high street that are little more than legal loan sharks which charge people 2,000, 3,000 and 4,000 per cent interest to borrow money. Expansion of the credit union sector gives people who are financially excluded the opportunity to become financially included and to pay a fair price for the credit that they need.

The big society seems to have disappeared a bit from the vocabulary of the Government in recent months, but initiatives like this, which enable people to help themselves, are what I understand by the big society and are very welcome.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, let me join others in welcoming this order laid before us. Like others, I think that the only regret is that we had not seen it perhaps a little sooner, but I am delighted that it has come now. I am also delighted to be able to look at it in the context of the Government’s commitment to credit unions. A project is now under way between the Post Office and ABCUL—a sort of industry spokesperson for credit unions more broadly—to find ways for the Post Office to be the front-door platform for many people to access their accounts through the Post Office structure. That would have been inadequate were these other steps not being taken to expand the capacity of credit unions.

I am particularly delighted that we now have a new definition of the common bond, which will take a real constraint away from credit unions and their capacity to build membership and to serve the community. The United States has long had much greater flexibility. Whereas in the UK the figures from ABCUL suggest that the current amount of assets under credit union management is £790 million, in the United States—even allowing for the difference in population size—some $900 billion of total assets come within the credit union structure. We are looking at a completely different dimension, which I hope the UK will be able to move towards. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has said, many people who are financially excluded can see a route into financial inclusion through credit unions that they would not find in the high street banks.

I also am encouraged by the expansion of the groups which a credit union can serve to include corporate bodies, partnerships and unincorporated associations. We have many small businesses which once again cannot find a satisfactory financial relationship through existing high street banks. They need other sources and mechanisms. Again, if we look at the United States, it is interesting that the ability to serve small business has long been part of the credit union framework. In 2011 alone, the Obama Administration are using that credit union network to push $300 million in additional credit directly to small and very small business in a way in which we have no capacity to do here in the UK. For the kind of activity that we are seeing through credit easing—obviously, that is a much broader programme—in the United States that is able to happen far more easily and fluidly through mechanisms such as the credit union and the much wider world of community development banks. We can now begin to move towards having that potential here in the UK.

With the new classes of shares and the ability to deepen investment, we are coming now to the point where there is a recognition that more diversity and provision that focuses on people who are financially excluded, and on businesses that are micro and small, is all to the positive for the growth that we need in our economy.

I join others in welcoming this order laid before us by the Government today. I express apologies from my noble friend Lord Newby, who had expected to be standing here but, because of the time, unfortunately could not cancel another commitment. I welcome this move by the Government.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister greeted my arrival at the Front Bench with a slightly wintry smile earlier. Whether he thought I was late, though I assure him I was descending from the rarefied atmosphere of the Back Benches, which is why I was slightly delayed, or whether he anticipated that this debate had some hidden horrors, I am not sure. He will, however, by now have appreciated the fact, from the contributions both of my noble friend Lord Kennedy and of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that this measure is most welcome and Her Majesty’s Opposition are delighted to see it being presented today.

As noble Lords have already spoken about the virtues and possibilities of the credit union and the Minister himself paid due tribute to their work, it would be otiose of me to expand on that matter and, as I am given to brevity, noble Lords will appreciate that I will take as read the reason why this order should commend itself to the House. However, I have some questions to ask, which I hope the Minister will be able to respond to. What does he expect the removal of the limit on non-withdrawal shares to be? Will this result in dominant members of a society emerging? What steps will the FSA be taking to ensure that societies do not become subject to such dominance whereby a small number of individuals might establish a very considerable influence with regard to these non-withdrawable share holdings?

On credit unions, could I ask about the removal of the common bond, which is the whole point of a credit union, because it provides the self-regulatory strength of mutual knowledge and understanding? What does this mean as far as the future of the credit union is concerned? Does it mean that credit unions will be just another form of financial organisation rather than the distinctive sort of organisation which is being commended in the speeches made so far today in this short debate?

Finally, what does the Minister expect to be the impact of bodies corporate joining credit unions? Will this not lead to small commercial enterprises exploiting the financial strength of the credit union to further the interests of their own businesses? In other words, would credit unions become tied to businesses instead of being independent? After all, one business which might supply 10 per cent of the assets of the credit union will undoubtedly be a powerful force within it.

We welcome this legislation, but I would be grateful if the Minister could give me some assurance on those limited anxieties.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the small but focused and committed group of noble Lords who have spoken with clear knowledge and some degree of passion about this, as it is important. It is clear from all sides that there is strong support for the work that co-operatives and credit unions undertake across Great Britain.

16:15

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, I was waiting to see—my noble friend Lady Kramer having nobly stepped in in the absence of my noble friend Lord Newby—who might be on the Front Bench in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. I noticed that the noble Lord crossed three Benches in one bound and here he is. It is always good to be opposed by the noble Lord, Lord Davies.

I had not realised that we were debating this order on International Credit Union Day, but I am delighted that we are making a small contribution to that. I should like to have said that we had scheduled the business deliberately, but I must confess that I was unaware.

As has been said, although the co-operative and credit union sector is not as large in Great Britain as it is in other countries, its membership is growing. That is clear testimony to the trust and esteem in which they are held across the country. The Government want to make sure that we underpin the valuable role that they play, particularly in promoting higher rates of saving across the economy, helping to develop a culture of financial responsibility, providing credit at a local level for individuals and empowering communities across the UK.

However, I recognise the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, and my noble friend Lady Kramer about the need for us to do more. Even though I was not asked about what else the Government are doing, we see this order in the context of a series of reforms that we are making, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, is aware. We are exploring the commencement aspects of the co-operative Act and this order is a necessary precondition of that Act coming into effect. We are making the electronic communications order for mutuals, which will enable them to cut the costs of communicating and to hold votes electronically. Only earlier this week we debated in Committee the transferring of Northern Ireland credit unions under the FISMA legislation, which will not only act as a deregulatory measure but give better protection to an important category of depositor. Therefore, this order is part of an ongoing programme of work.

Let me address the important questions of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. On the question of non-withdrawable share capital, the consultation and trade body studies indicate that approximately 0.5 per cent of industrial and provident society members will seek to invest more in their co-op. This is viewed as positive. The results do not raise a question of withdrawal but show a small positive interest among members in investing more.

Then there was the question of whether businesses will effectively take over credit unions. Will credit unions lose their independence? The sector itself wanted businesses to be able to be members and, in that way, help to expand the membership base. No concerns were expressed about this during the consultation period. Therefore, this is seen entirely as an opportunity by the sector itself, rather than as any threat to independence.

In relation, finally, to the common bond and its removal, there is a limit on the extension of the common bond which is currently very restrictive. Some restrictions will remain to ensure that the fundamental purpose of credit unions is not undermined, and that is built into the new construct. I agree with the noble Lord that we must not do anything to undermine the fundamental purpose here. We are not doing so, nor does the sector believe us to be.

When the coalition came into government, we made clear that we would be supportive of the mutuals sector. By means of this legislation, we are taking another step to bring what is essentially a 19th century construct into the 21st century in order to free the sector of unnecessary burdens and obstacles. It is clear from what I said in my opening remarks, and I think it has been confirmed by contributions this afternoon, that there is huge appetite for growth in this sector. At a time when we must redouble our efforts to support the economy, we have to do all that we can, and this plays a modest but important part in enabling growth. I believe that this order is a win-win situation not only for co-ops and credit unions, but also for the communities that they serve.

Motion agreed.

House adjourned at 4.22 pm