Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, if he will make a statement regarding the NHS Volunteer and Care Service

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of this House and I will look into it and get back to him. Thank you to the secretary of

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Thank you to the secretary of state for answering point of order. In recognising how important In recognising how important Nobody should be stifled. Let us

15:46

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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Urgent Urgent questions, Urgent questions, Dr Urgent questions, Dr Caroline

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Johnson. To ask the Secretary of State for

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set health and social care if he would consider the volunteer service. Thank you, can I thank the Minister for giving me the opportunity to speak on this topic and highlight the important role and highlight the important role volunteering plays in our health and social care system. Because the NHS has always benefited from the has always benefited from the generous contribution made by volunteers who play a vital role in supporting our patients, staff and supporting our patients, staff and services.

We are grateful to all the thousands of volunteers donate their time to support the NHS in a wide time to support the NHS in a wide variety of roles, from helping patients leave hospital faster and settle at home to supporting emergency cardiac incidents and providing companionship to patients during end-of-life care. The NHS during end-of-life care. The NHS responders program was first established as part of the COVID response then adapted to respond to other pressures. However a model that worked well in that national crisis is no longer the most cost- effective way of facilitating the important contribution of our much valued volunteers.

So NHS England has recently decided to close the current program. Instead, a new central recruitment portal for NHS volunteers will be launched this year providing opportunities for the current volunteer responders to continue to play their part. And volunteers will have had that

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information recently emailed to them. NHS England will also work with NHS providers who draw on with NHS providers who draw on support or the volunteer responders program to make sure they are supporting other volunteering supporting other volunteering services that meet their needs. There are also 50,000 additional volunteers recruited by unsupported volunteers recruited by unsupported by NHS trusts directly, whose roles will be unaffected by the closure of will be unaffected by the closure of this particular program. This is in addition to many more thousands of volunteers who support the NHS volunteers who support the NHS directly and indirectly via other organisations.

Successful volunteering programs in the NHS are volunteering programs in the NHS are primarily run locally by individual trusts and Integrated Care Systems, identifying the best opportunities identifying the best opportunities for volunteering that meets their service needs. This means local service needs. This means local action to codevelop volunteering programs and pathways that support NHS staff and services. They will continue to be opportunities to strengthen and encourage this at a

15:48

Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)

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strengthen and encourage this at a national level, the government recognises the need for sufficient and agile capability support for scenarios such as pandemics and flu seasons when the health and care

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sector is stretched. Thank you for granting this urgent questions. At the start of urgent questions. At the start of the COVID pandemic NHS volunteer responders were set up to support responders were set up to support vulnerable people. Following its success they expanded the scheme to success they expanded the scheme to adult social care, forming a joint volunteers program. This service has mobilised over three quarters of a million ordinary citizens who million ordinary citizens who contributed millions of staff shifts, 1 million community response tasks and almost 400,000 steward tasks and almost 400,000 steward shifts.

I saw firsthand as a volunteer and Dr during the pandemic that NHS health and social care teams benefit from volunteer teams benefit from volunteer support. I would like to thank all those who give up their time to support those around them. Yet out support those around them. Yet out of nowhere the Labour government has decided to cancel a service at the decided to cancel a service at the end of the month. No tasks allocated after 31 May will be completed, seemingly leaving patients in the seemingly leaving patients in the lurch.

As the Minister thought out the real-world implications, the additional pressures placed on NHS and local authorities, the loss of institutional knowledge, the impact on vulnerable patients. What alternatives are being put in place to support people who were supported by volunteers? The honourable Lady said there would be something later this year. When? I leave a gap? Telephone helpline is only open until 31 May, what happens to those in need support after that? Good Minister explain why this decision was taken so suddenly and which Minister signed it off? The volunteer website says this decision was taken due to financial pressures.

Can the Minister tell as how much the scheme costs and what how much the scheme costs and what does it cost as a proportion of the total NHS budget? Public Accounts Committee report on the reorganisation last week was reorganisation last week was damning. The Secretary of State said he would devote more resources to he would devote more resources to the frontline to deliver better services for patients, yet cancelling a service takes services cancelling a service takes services from the frontline. This seems yet another example of Labour rushing into a decision without thinking it into a decision without thinking it through properly.

Yet another promise broken by this government at the expense of the most vulnerable people.

15:51

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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First of all, she is absolutely right to highlight the tremendous effort that went into establishing this program very quickly at a time of such great crisis, and to the hundreds of thousands of volunteers across the country that took part and stepped up, and a huge effort to get that scheme running. We are all very grateful for it. Of course, everyone has learned a great deal from that. I think as I outlined in my initial response we are clear that the role of volunteering going forward and using the essence of that will be taken forward.

She said changes like this are out of nowhere, no they are not. We are critically looking across the piece as we fix the foundations of our NHS and make sure it is fit for the future, that we are looking out all the most cost-effective means to deliver the same outcome. Which is why we will be moving to a more centralised portal for part of this work, that's why we have emailed, work, that's why we have emailed, NHS England has emailed people.

Some people may have looked at that email and perhaps not scrolled down it, and perhaps not scrolled down it, it's clear that there is an option to push a button to make sure those to push a button to make sure those details are registered so people will be updated as new systems come online to make sure we don't lose online to make sure we don't lose that great volunteering spirit that has come forward. And that is about has come forward. And that is about using digital for the future, for the most cost-effective means to develop clear outcomes.

Does the Minister agree with me that as we rebuild our NHS volunteers at NHS trusts will not be used to plug gaps in service, but this role will allow staff to focus on clinical matters. Thank you. on clinical matters. Thank you.

15:53

Helen Morgan MP (North Shropshire, Liberal Democrat)

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I am absolutely happy to give my honourable friend reassurance, volunteer support and complement the workforce, they don't replace it. It's an important role they play in supporting staff, services and patients. Many people in the House are volunteers themselves and we have all certainly used them and are pleased to see them supporting the wider system. But obviously it's very important we keep our staff and respect the important role they also

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do. I was a volunteer vaccination

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I was a volunteer vaccination steward myself during the pandemic, Liberal Democrats are hugely grateful to the thousands of volunteers who made a difference to volunteers who made a difference to the lives of patients and vulnerable people in their communities since the pandemic ended. Their compassion and commitment has been inspiring. We are concerned that the end of this program has been announced at short notice with no further shifts

15:54

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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short notice with no further shifts in just 12 days time. Can the Minister reassure the house that those currently receiving help from the volunteer scheme, such as prescription collection or shopping fetching, will not be left high and dry after next Saturday. As the Department conducted an impact assessment, and will they publish it now? It's concerning that as with so many major decisions, like dropping cross party talks on care, the government didn't come to the House first? Can the Minister reassure the House these conditions will improve

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care and are not a cost cutting exercise. I thank her for her work volunteering and supporting that volunteering and supporting that scheme during COVID. The scheme during COVID. The announcement is part of NHS England announcement, they are continuing to work with the NHS and voluntary organisations to support them to organisations to support them to make sure that that work continues, and they continue to recruit and they continue to recruit volunteers ahead of a fuller launch of the recruitment portal later this year.

On her wider point, I think year. On her wider point, I think this government is not dropping talking to other parties with talking to other parties with regards to social care. For example, that is obviously being taken forward by the independent

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commission under Louise Casey. I also would like to pay tribute to all the volunteers across Calder Valley and the rest of the country who helped with the fantastic vaccine rollout. Can the Minister vaccine rollout. Can the Minister confirm to me that despite the scaremongering from the opposite benches that of course people will still be able to volunteer and

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still be able to volunteer and support people for the NHS. I thank him for that contribution, and it's a good opportunity which I very much welcome to highlight again how important volunteering is to the NHS and care system. That it will remain an important part of our plans going forward, to highlight two people who have perhaps had an email and have perhaps had an email and thought something is just stopping and there isn't more to do, make sure they press that button and sure they press that button and register for upcoming opportunities.

That they are in contact with their local NHS systems. Because as I said local NHS systems. Because as I said in my remarks, volunteering is done locally, it's important we support those local systems and that we encourage more and more people to encourage more and more people to come forward to undertake this important work. important work.

15:56

Dame Caroline Dinenage MP (Gosport, Conservative)

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I would like to start by paying tribute to some of the volunteers across my constituency who make such a difference to peoples lives. And the Minister will have noticed polling today found that more and more people are feeling disconnected from society. That is compounded by the fact that so many of our community spaces are struggling to make ends meet as a result of the combination of business rate changes, National Insurance rises, and energy price rises. Those health and energy price rises.

Those health and care volunteers have been such a difference to being able to chat with those who are lonely and with those who are lonely and vulnerable in my constituency. As the Minister considered the impact of this decision, particularly in the interim period on communities the interim period on communities like mine. What cost Willie drive like mine. What cost Willie drive into our -- will it drive into our health services by not having the volunteer services to support people at the time of need? at the time of need?

15:57

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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Can I agree with her about the role people do, particularly conversations and the helped save for people who feel disconnected. It does not mean volunteers are being does not mean volunteers are being stopped, we are making sure we use that knowledge in building the system for the future. I was pleased to host a roundtable with organisations as part of our 10 year plan process. There are some fantastic ideas and opportunities fantastic ideas and opportunities out there to use the knowledge we have learned particularly under COVID, to use technology to link people and also recognise how we make sure people remain connected.

All of that will form part of our future plans.

15:58

Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)

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Before I asked my question I would like to draw attention to my register of interests, I unpaid trustee of health force a charity that supports volunteering in health and care, working with over 100 NHS partners to embed volunteering in the trusts. Volunteers make a huge the trusts. Volunteers make a huge contribution as we have heard across the country, giving up their time the country, giving up their time and skills to free up doctors to focus on clinical tasks.

Health force runs a scheme called volunteer to react, enabling people to try out three volunteering then make that transition into a front-line transition into a front-line healthcare career. Will the Minister agree with me that schemes such as agree with me that schemes such as health force volunteer to career program could play a whole -- huge program could play a whole -- huge program could play a whole -- huge role in filling NHS vacancies, and will help running the 10 year plan.

15:59

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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I thank her for both her work and her expertise and knowledge, she is right that embedding that knowledge where it is needed in the frontline in our communities is exactly what in our communities is exactly what we need to be doing, and recognise where we can use volunteers well. What's called micro-volunteering these days, it could help people link where it suits them as well, we could take advantage of people, that sounds bad, but we could utilise sounds bad, but we could utilise peoples opportunities to work different or irregular shifts so they can give more.

We know there's they can give more. We know there's a great appetite out there to support the system more. This appears to be another rather muddled decision from government. The Minister has acknowledged these volunteers provide a vital service. But now they are going to, if they want to continue they will have the inconvenience of going to this new portal and registering and so on. Would it not be better to at least maintain the current arrangements until a new alternative was in place, and by the time we have provided extra support to medical professions and so on during the interim, will it have saved any money at all? money at all?

16:00

Mr Richard Quigley MP (Isle of Wight West, Labour)

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I'm afraid I will have to disagree with him, it's not muddled. The current system is not providing good value for money. That is the analysis undertaken by NHS England. Making sure that we produce something better for the future. This government will make sure we continue to act in the best interest of volunteers, patients, and taxpayers in setting up the NHS of taxpayers in setting up the NHS of

16:00

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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May I congratulate all the volunteers in my constituency. Does the Minister agree that the huge increase in volunteers in recent years is because the party opposite ran down the NHS? Now they are in opposition they can no longer run down the NHS they took it down instead.

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Sorry, the honourable gentleman is chuntering from a sedentary position. I agree with my honourable

16:01

Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)

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position. I agree with my honourable friend. Yes, they ran down the NHS inherited a broken system. But volunteering has always been a very important part of the NHS and care system. So I do pay tribute to those people who come forward. It is both good for the system and people they help and very good for many individuals. We talked earlier about feeling disconnected, but we also know how valuable it is to individuals for themselves to be giving and volunteering. So we want

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to see more of it. This closure follows that no

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This closure follows that no notice closure for special baby and maternity units at Yeovil District

16:01

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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maternity units at Yeovil District Hospital today. This comes amidst a crisis in our health service. I want to take the opportunity of thanking the hundreds of NHS volunteers in customary who give millions of volunteer hours to the NHS. But with the NHS Trusts influencing staff freezes to keep afloat, that does not seem to be any situation of the impact this closure might have. How will the government ensure that patients don't lose access to vital support and suffer as a result of these changes? these changes?

16:02

Jenny Riddell-Carpenter MP (Suffolk Coastal, Labour)

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The honourable lady makes an important point that it is important to make sure that people don't suffer from changes. And the impact is minimised. It is to not delivering effective value for money and we think the future will, so we would encourage more people coming would encourage more people coming forward, and more sustainability of volunteering in the local systems. volunteering in the local systems.

16:03

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. My constituency, it is no examination to say that in the pandemic there were thousands of constituent topping out in volunteering roles in the NHS and across their communities. Will the Minister reassure my constituents that those who wants to play a part in volunteering can continue to do so, and perhaps should outline the steps they can take to register their interests?

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I thank my honourable friend. She

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I thank my honourable friend. She is right. We want to make sure that people in her constituency and all our constituencies who have volunteered or perhaps thought they might want to, or could not at the time and want to the future, time and want to the future, absolutely do so. Those that are already on the system, who have received an email can register and we will make sure it is easy for people to do so in the future. I should say I have been reminded from should say I have been reminded from my notes that people who volunteered in those very early weeks of the

16:03

Tim Farron MP (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)

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in those very early weeks of the pandemic perhaps they were on a different system, perhaps they should be on a different process because you don't want to lose them. But we will make sure there are more opportunities for people available. I'm happy to update the House when it happens.

16:04

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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Can I say a massive thank you to all the NHS volunteers across the country and particularly in my constituency. It was a privilege to join them alongside my children to deliver prescriptions that period. The work of the volunteers in the NHS is not over. In communities like mine we particularly depend on volunteer drivers to get them in rural communities. Hours away from hospital or doctor's appointments. Will she take the opportunity to direct ICBs in Cumbria and the trust as well to support those volunteer drivers so that volunteers are valued and patients are not

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isolated? He makes an excellent point on behalf of his community as well as behalf of his community as well as in rural communities and the role of in rural communities and the role of volunteer drivers. Volunteer drivers across a range of areas was my

16:05

Katrina Murray MP (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch, Labour)

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across a range of areas was my husband is out volunteering for another charity as I speak. We need more of these people. There are plenty of opportunities to people who have time. And NHS England is continuing to work with ICBs to make sure we take forward the best of what we already had into the rest of the NHS.

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I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Prior to my election

16:05

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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answers so far. Prior to my election I spent 23 years running a volunteer program in the NHS. Including during COVID. And a COVID response. Not only should we be thanking all of the volunteers have been involved but also those who run the volunteer programs locally, and the importance of local infrastructure. It is all well and good having a national system, but where it works well it works well, I work doesn't it is due to a lack of structure.

Could I ask the Minister what steps she is putting in place to ensure that there is going to be local infrastructure to support volunteering and making things

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better for all of those who contribute to volunteering? Can I thank her for that

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Can I thank her for that contribution, and for her own service in that role. She is right service in that role. She is right to highlight not just the people that come forward but the people that do run those local that do run those local infrastructures. As I said in my opening remarks, most of those are

16:06

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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done on a very local level. It is important what the national scheme did, and the learning we must take from this is how to bring it together in a crisis. What we want to do is make sure the learning from that is spread across the country but that we can use digital technology and the portal where that suit many people coming forward. She suit many people coming forward. She Locally are best placed to know whether service gaps are and whether people are that can support them.

They provide an important link and They provide an important link and we will make sure that as part of our 10 year plan.

16:07

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I thank the Minister for her answers? The work of the voluntary sector within the NHS cannot ever be overstated. Those who volunteered to help people to find a way around hospital maze, to those who provide the vital phone support and work within the communities, and also hospital radio and the volunteers and what they do. This is a huge loss, and the question is clear, who can and who will replace these volunteers, and the support they have given, which has made such a difference to so

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many in their time of need? At a time and they need it most and the time a vulnerability? Can I thank him for that. He is

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Can I thank him for that. He is absently right. It is the NHS and absently right. It is the NHS and care system that needs people and in many hospitals it is a maze. That friendly face to greet you when you friendly face to greet you when you go into the hospital, and they are knowledgeable, most people going to

16:08

Emma Foody MP (Cramlington and Killingworth, Labour )

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knowledgeable, most people going to hospital not for good reasons they recognise the anxiety we have enter those places. Can I gently correct them, we are not losing the volunteers. This is a change to a contractual arrangement. The volunteers are still there. We still want to make sure they come forward as we discussed, they are more generally in local situations. It is about the best way you can garner where you need a national system to spread into a local system because the more of this is done locally, we the more of this is done locally, we need to encourage people to come forward and I hope as a result of the question we are highlighting the role of that more people will come forward.

forward.

16:08

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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If I echo the comments made today about huge contribution which volunteers make up and down the country, helping and supporting NHS staff day in day out. If I can declare a bit of an interest as someone who started Evelyn to Janet with the response program and continues now as a community first responder with my local ambulance service. Can the Minister reassure me that those who wish to continue to play their part carry on volunteering in other ways of the NHS can do so, and jointly in encouraging those who are interested encouraging those who are interested in doing so to check opportunities with the local trusts? We are learning so much about each other this afternoon.

I am pleased to hear that is how my honourable friend started her honourable friend started her journey. And so impressed that she has continued to do that. I myself was out with ambulance services last was out with ambulance services last week talking to ambulance staff, and week talking to ambulance staff, and really highly praising of those community first responders. I know the work she and others is doing is the work she and others is doing is very valuable. I know she is keen to use that knowledge to feed into the use that knowledge to feed into the work we want to do in the future.

I thank the Minister for answering the questions. Can I pay tribute to the many volunteers and hollow both supported be putting the pandemic but particularly to the volunteers who go in and support people at the end of life care at Princess Alexandra Hospital. We found to get volunteers and hollow was best do that locally both through rainbow services and through our sadly now redundant to the previous and volunteer coordinator. I ask how local services and charities can feed into this once it is up and running?

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I thank him for that and the work of Butterfly in his constituency. And supporting people at that And supporting people at that important end-of-life point. It is hard work and we commend him for it. hard work and we commend him for it.

16:10

Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)

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The link is critical, that is where we need to make sure that people who come on nationally can be directed to those local systems. We will make sure that through NHS England and perhaps it is appropriate that we are clear that it is an interest local member is apparent how we make sure that the connection between sure that the connection between what we have learnt from the national scheme is continued into all local schemes. We need that local coordination and local infrastructure as we have heard this afternoon.

16:11

Mr Speaker

That completes the Urgent Question. We will let the Front Benches change over. Point of order. granting of the Urgent Question that she was so kind to grant, we have no idea how long the gap in volunteering service will be or what will happen to the most honourable people using the service was not what other Parliamentary mechanisms can I use to get the answers to

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these questions? I think in fairness I can't allow the debate to continue. That is what

16:12

Speaker's Statement Mr Speaker

she is trying to tempt me towards. I'm sure good offices will give some I'm sure good offices will give some strong advice will stop I'm sure you strong advice will stop I'm sure you will be advised as to how you can pursue it and I'm sure the Front Benches a further question. Let us Benches a further question. Let us change over. Before I call the Home change over. Before I call the Home Secretary to make a statement, I must remind the house that the must remind the house that the resolution of the house elating to matters of sub judice prohibits any reference to cases in which an reference to cases in which an individual has been charged.

Three men have been charged with offences

16:12

Ministerial statement: Charges under the National Security Act

men have been charged with offences under the National Security Act, and the matter is therefore sub judice. However, since this case concerns matters of national importance, and it is in the public interest for the House to hear from the Home Secretary, and granting a limited waiver for the purposes of this waiver for the purposes of this statement only to allow discussion on a wider security issues. Members should exercise a high degree of caution in their remarks and take caution in their remarks and take every care to avoid saying anything which could potentially prejudice which could potentially prejudice the criminal trial.

I now call the Home Secretary Yvette Cooper. Home Secretary Yvette Cooper.

16:13

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. With permission I will make a statement the charging of the three individuals under the National Security Act that took place on 17 May. And the further action the government is taking to counter national security threats. I want to thank the police security intelligence agencies, not just for their work on the vital operations and investigations that are currently underway, but for the dedication that they show each day to defend our national security and keep our country safe.

Their tireless work, often in the shadows and often in secret, often great personal danger, is indispensable. I hope the whole House will join me in paying tribute to their service. On Saturday, three Iranian nationals were charged with offences under the National Security Act 2023. All three had been charged with engaging in conduct likely to assist a foreign intelligence service. Additional charges were brought in relation to engaging in conduct leading surveillance, reconnaissance, open research, with the intent to commit acts of serious violence against a person in the United Kingdom.

The foreign state to which these charges relate is Iran. And these individuals are the first Iranian nationals to be charged under the National Security Act. The criminal national security investigations in these cases are ongoing. The police and security services have my support in their vital work. These cases must now also progress through the Criminal Justice Bill which means that until the trial there are limits on what we can discuss so as not to prejudice that process. However, there are a series of grave wider issues where I wanted to update the house on the stronger action the government is taking to strengthen our national security, including new powers on the state threats, further action on Iran, and strengthening our border security to keep the public safe.

This is the first time that they have been charges under the National Security Act links to Iran. The House will be aware that it comes against a backdrop of rising numbers of Iran linked operations on UK soil, have been repeated warnings by ministers, the police, and our security and intelligence agencies. The Director-General of MI5 said in October last year that the police and MI5 had responded to 20 Iran backed plot presenting potentially lethal threats. Let me be clear, we will not tolerate growing state back threats on UK soil.

The Iranian regime poses an unacceptable threat to our domestic security which Following this decision I can confirm the Iranian ambassador has been summoned, and my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is arranging with the Iranian Foreign Minister in the strongest terms that the UK will not accept any Iranian state threat activity in the UK. As the security Minister set out in March, we have placed the whole of the Iranian state on the enhanced tear of the foreign registration scheme due to come into effect on 1 July.

The government also introduce sanctions as part of efforts to systematically dismantle criminal networks and enablers that Iran uses to carry out its work, including the foxtrot network sanctioned last month. And international cooperation is critical in challenging Iranian transnational threats. That's why we are convening ministerial counterparts from Allied nations facing similar threats, to discuss coordinated action. But we need to go further in strengthening our powers to address national security threats. Security Minister and I both warned of the increasing complexity of the threats we face, from extremists and terrorist groups and individuals including Islamist far right extremism and action against those remains crucial.

Malign activities against us by on behalf of foreign states have grown, the threats we face have become more complex and intertwined. MI5 state threats have increased in the last year, led by councillors terrorism -- up fivefold by -- since 2020. The threats are becoming more and can -- interconnected. We have seen malign foreign state organisations seek to exploit any vulnerability from criminal networks to our cybersecurity to our borders to do us harm. In our manifesto we committed to stronger action on state-based security threats, for entering government of Foreign Secretary and I set out plans for the establishment of a joint unit to pursue and coordinate action.

I can announce the new state threats joint unit is in place with staff from across Whitehall driving a broader approach across government, building new partnerships with industry and academia. Last week the security Minister set out the conclusions of a review by the defending democracy task force, into transnational repression where foreign states attempt intimidation, surveillance and harassment of UK-based individuals including stronger support for those who are being targeted. This is criminal activity and will be treated as such, because everyone in this country should be able to go about their daily lives able to go about their daily lives freely and without fear.

We have of course supported the National Security act, rightly brought in by the previous government. We need to go further. That's why I commissioned the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation to examine further gaps in the national legislation where counterterrorism powers could be emulated and particularly looking at prescribing powers where I have long raised concerns that it's too difficult to apply existing powers for state and state backed bodies. Today Mr Hall has published his review and I would like to thank him for working so swiftly and comprehensively.

He concluded there are gaps in a series of the areas including proscribing legislation. He describes legal difficulties in using powers designed to deal with terrorist groups for state and state backed organisations, such as the IRGC. I can tell the House we are committed to taking forward the recommendations, and we will draw up new powers modelled on counterterrorism powers in a series of areas to tackle these state threats. Crucially, I can tell the House we will create a new power of proscription to cover state threats, a power stronger than current national security act powers in allowing us to restrict the activity and operations of foreign state backed organisations in the UK, including new criminal offences for individuals who invite support for promote the group in question.

And we won't hesitate to use it against organisations that pose a threat to UK residents, because we will not stand for foreign state organisations seeking to escalate threats on UK soil. As confirmed at the weekend, the three individuals who have been charged came to the UK between 2016 and 2022, by Laurie and small boat. This government has made it clear border security is national security. That is why we are introducing new counterterrorism powers at the border, but let me also be clear that our border security needs to be strengthened.

Organised crime, malign state actors and extremists can all exploit any vulnerabilities. So the border security Bill is introducing a wide-ranging counterterrorism style powers, to pursue organised immigration crime and strengthen border investigations. We introduced the Border Security Command, drawing together security operations around our border which have not been taken seriously enough before. Modelled on the approach successive governments have taken to counterterrorism. As part of our existing CT capabilities criminal record checks are carried out on everybody who applies for a Visa through our immigration system, on identified clandestinely is and those who arrive by small boat, so small -- interrogation and counterterrorism powers can then be used for tagging, heighten monitoring and immigration bail.

I have instructed officials to review those capabilities against the state threats as well as terrorism - related risks we face so we can strengthen our security response alongside the new counterterrorism style border powers we are introducing. We are also already reviewing our current response to criminality or threats in the asylum system, including the potential for greater use of a range of techniques and technology, as well as the existing ability to revoke or refuse asylum. Finally, in the face of a -- increasing threats to our security Prime Minister launched a new strategy, that is in development and will set out not just how our world leading police and security intelligence agencies but also have a whole of -- alcohol society needs to respond to these changing threats.

National security is the first duty of government, the foundation of our plan for change. The threats we face are more intertwined than ever, and our intertwined than ever, and our response needs to adapt. Together without international allies we need to face down the security threats and strengthen the powers and and strengthen the powers and capabilities of the police and security services who work around the clock to investigate and disrupt the clock to investigate and disrupt those who mean us harm. Our agencies have our wholehearted support, because in a volatile and uncertain world their efforts could not matter world their efforts could not matter more.

I commend this statement to the house. the house.

16:23

Rt Hon Chris Philp MP (Croydon South, Conservative)

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I thank the Home Secretary for advanced site of her statement. I pay tribute to Counter Terrorism Policing and the security services for the work they do daily to help keep us safe. Let me put on record that we on this side of the House support the government's plans to place Iran into the enhanced tier of the first regime, and we will also be supporting moves they wish to make to increase powers around proscription and any other powers that are necessary to keep us safe.

The whole House should be in no doubt about the malign influence Iran spreads around the world. It is responsible for supporting Hamas, who perpetrated the sickening massacre on October 7, 2023. Iran takes Western hostages, including Nazanin said Gary Ratcliffe, held in squalid conditions for years. Iran supports Houthis who attacked and try to sink civilian merchant shipping, in Ukraine we see Iranian drones and military equipment being used by Putin to murder Ukrainians and further Russia's illegal invasion.

And of course, Iran threatens to acquire a nuclear weapon. Iran also persecutes its own people. Women are abused, imprisoned and in some cases even killed for not adhering to the behaviour demanded by the Ayatollah. 22-year- old Mahsa Amini was arrested then killed by the Iranian religious police, simply for wearing what she wanted. I'm sure every single member of this House will condemn that atrocity. People who are gay in Iran are persecuted and sometimes killed, and those who oppose the Iranian regime are brutally oppressed and often murdered.

We should be in no doubt about the threat the Iranian regime poses to its own people and international peace. The tentacles of the Iranian state now stretched to our soil on the UK. Iran international TV, an independent TV channel, had to temporarily relocate to the US not long ago because its premises and people here were threatened by Iranian agents. Iranian dissidents on UK soil are threatened and harassed. And as the Home Secretary set out, just two weeks ago eight Iranian nationals were arrested planning attacks on UK soil.

In opposition, the Home Secretary said she would proscribe the IRGC. She said so and number of times including from this very Dispatch Box on 15 April last year. The Home Secretary has now been in office for nearly a year, my first question is this. Why has she not yet done what she said she would do by proscribing the IRGC? The Home Secretary has said the Iranian ambassador has been summoned. That is not an adequate response. Why have Iranian diplomats, including any suspected of supporting espionage activity, not been expelled? And what further steps can be taken to develop international sanctions against the Iranian regime? The Home Secretary confirmed that the three individuals charged over the weekend entered the UK illegally, including by small boat.

As recently as March of this year just a few weeks ago, I think on March 6, extremist Abu Walid entered the UK by small boat. He had previously been pictured on social media wielding an AK-47. Throwing pipe bombs and calling for the slaughter of Jews. This is the kind of illegal immigrant able to enter the country by small boat. The Home Secretary talks about her new bill which we debated a week ago today, but the truth is it won't make very much difference.

Confiscating mobile phones from illegal immigrants and slightly enhanced powers to monitor communications will not stop the crossings. The Border Security Commander has no actual powers other than to publish an annual report and set some strategic objectives. I don't think people smugglers are going to worry too much about that. What will stop the crossings is a proper deterrent, so all those who arrive, not some but all those who arrive are removed. Then they will not bother to attempt the crossing in the first place.

This deterrent approach worked in Australia about 10 years ago. So the Home Secretary must by now be regretting cancelling the Rwanda deterrent before it even started. Crossings since she became Home Secretary are up by 30% year- on-year, and 2025 so far as being the worst in history. Does she finally agree it is time to follow other countries and establish a proper removals deterrent, applying to all those who arrive illegally by small boats. It's time to bring back Rwanda. In their first six months in office the government have not returned a single Iranian to Iran, not one.

Including Iranian criminals. Does the Home Secretary agree it's now time to repeal the Human Rights Act for matters so that criminals and other dangerous people can be more easily removed from the UK, and cannot any longer persuade UK, and cannot any longer persuade UK judges to allow them to stay here on ever more tenuous Human Rights Council. The only way to protect our Council. The only way to protect our borders and ensure security is to remove all illegal immigrants as soon as they arrive, I hope she urgently adopts that policy.

16:29

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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I would just say to the shadow Home Secretary, he was an immigration Minister when the number of small boat crossings sword, when net migration sword. On his watch patrols were reduced. Under his party we saw returns plummet. This government is clear the rules need to be respected and enforced, and that is why this government is introducing counterterrorism style powers to strengthen our border security. Something his party shockingly has repeatedly voted against.

He refers still to his Rwanda scheme that cost £700 million and sent four volunteers, just four volunteers in the two years it was operational, it sent four volunteers to Rwanda. Frankly when it comes to our national security border security is part of our national security. I'm sorry that he is not sufficiently taking seriously the national security threats we face. I support the work his government did in bringing in the National Security act, but as he knows I repeatedly warned the powers were not strong enough to be able to use legislation designed for terrorism to be able to proscribe state backed organisations.

We did repeatedly call on his government, if they were not able to proscribe the IRGC we called on them to strengthen and amend the powers to be able to do so under national security provisions. In fact, we even put forward an amendment to the National Security act in the last Parliament, and his act in the last Parliament, and his He now says he will support our measures to strengthen our national security and to bring forward stronger prescribing powers so that stronger prescribing powers so that they can be used against all kinds of state backed organisations that of state backed organisations that might attempt to do us harm.

Because our national security is the first duty of any government, and that is why this government will continue to why this government will continue to take ever stronger action to pursue issues around criminality, extremist or terrorist threats, and issues or terrorist threats, and issues around border threats and national security threats. That is how we keep our communities safe. Given the wide-ranging threats that we face from hostiles actors, it is more important than ever that we protect ourselves from state backed attacks and similar things, so can the Home Secretary update us on what is being done to increase the nation's resilience and countermeasures are sung against such attacks.

16:32

Lisa Smart MP (Hazel Grove, Liberal Democrat)

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My friend is right because the national security complex threats and are increasingly entwined in cyber threats and use of technology. It will be a central part of the new national security strategy that the Prime Minister has announced and is being developed at the moment so we recognise the interplay between these threats.

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I am grateful to the Home Secretary. We remain for our police Secretary. We remain for our police intelligence and services that continue to put themselves at risk continue to put themselves at risk to keep our country safe. We support the action taken by the government so far and are ready to support robust sanctions and other actions against cowardly regimes who seek to against cowardly regimes who seek to destabilise hours and other Western democracies. We last discussed the threat in this chamber a couple of weeks ago and in response to questions regarding the prescribing of the IRGC, the Security Minister referred to the work being undertaken in reviewing the undertaken in reviewing the legislation we have in place and it is good to hear this review has been published today.

The Home Secretary published today. The Home Secretary mentions planned changes to be made and additional powers to be brought into respond to the legal difficulties in using powers that difficulties in using powers that were designed to deal with terrorist groups for state and state backed organisations such as the IRC G. organisations such as the IRC G. Could you confirm that these new planned powers will finally enable the IRGC to be prescribed? I would be very grateful if the Home Secretary could update the house on what timetable she foresees in bringing forward these changes and given the difficulties of previous counterterror laws, will any of these changes be subject to the appropriate pre-legislative scrutiny? Our democracy has faced and continues to face systematic threats from hostile foreign states, not just from Iran but from China and Russia as well.

Now that our police and security services have had a chance to use the provisions within the National Security Act, could the Home Secretary update the could the Home Secretary update the house on any further gaps they have found during their work? We know we live in a perilous world with war on live in a perilous world with war on our continent and we Liberal Democrats welcomed the increase in defence spending. However, the defence spending. However, the decision to take this money from the budget will leave a vacuum and some of the most vulnerable places.

We of the most vulnerable places. We know that China and Russia are seeking to fill that void, and Iran seeking to fill that void, and Iran will try to do the same. So what assessment has the government made assessment has the government made using soft power to influence events threats to national security.

16:35

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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She specifically asks about the IRGC. She specifically says that the existing legal framework has significant challenges when it comes to trying to take restriction action or banning action against the state backed and state organisations, and that there are legal challenges with doing that, and that is exactly why. He refers to the IRGC in that context. That is why he has set out the need for those new powers to be brought in, and that is what we are committed to do.

Obviously, that process would need to be followed, but I can simply say that I continue to be concerned about the IRGC and we will need to pursue that process by bringing in the new legislation. She is also right to highlight threats from Russia and the other kind of threats and challenges from China as well. The whole report does identify other areas where he thinks flowers could be strengthened, including around search, around cordons, around post charge questioning and specific circumstances.

We will be looking at the detail to make sure we take forward the issues raised.

16:36

Luke Akehurst MP (North Durham, Labour)

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The charging of Iranians nationals raises alarming questions about the extent of Iranian state about the extent of Iranian state activity in the UK and we know that Teheran uses the IRGC to push its influence around the world, including supporting attacks against Jewish people and Israelis around the world. What assessment is made the world. What assessment is made about the threat to the Jewish community by operatives and what steps are being taken to protect the community and eliminate those threats?

16:37

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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My friend is right to raise the issues around the importance of security for Jewish communities which should never be compromised either domestically or by any kind of foreign state influence or activity. It is why we work very closely with the CST, the future closely with the CST, the future security trust on a range of issues around support and protection for the Jewish communities across the UK and why we also take immensely and why we also take immensely seriously any malign Iranians influences that are targeted towards Jewish communities as well.

16:38

Rt Hon Sir Oliver Dowden MP (Hertsmere, Conservative)

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The Home Secretary rightly says that threats to hostiles are complex and intertwined. Can she update the house and what further steps the government is taking to protect critical national infrastructure, particularly from cyber attacks? particularly from cyber attacks? Moreover, our security services commit vast amounts of expertise in our protection. Their successes have to be hidden but their failures are often picked over. The one thing they really do need additional resources so can I urge the Home resources so can I urge the Home Secretary to make the case vigorously for them during the forthcoming spending review? That is the least they deserve from the house.

16:38

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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I know this is an issue he took seriously when he was in government, including the issues around critical national infrastructure. I agree with him about the importance of that, and the indications in terms of cyber attacks, I know he will agree that the critical national infrastructure we have is changing what is now critical and different from what might have been the national infrastructure even 10 national infrastructure even 10 years ago, 20 or 30 years ago, so we have to have the processes to be able to adapt swiftly and that will able to adapt swiftly and that will be considered part of the national be considered part of the national security review, and he can be assured that I will strongly always argue for support for our argue for support for our intelligence and security agencies.

I would like to thank the Home Secretary for her statement today, particularly the steps taken to describe the IRGC and the outcome of the Jonathan Hall review. It is very sad that the previous Conservative government failed to do so in 14 years. Whilst we wait for that legislation to come forward, while the Home Secretary reassure the house and reaffirmed the house that anyone in the UK failing to declare a relationship with uranium regime is committing a criminal offence. is committing a criminal offence.

16:40

Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)

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That is the reason why we have put the IRGC as one of the organisations put onto the enhanced tier of the foreign influence registration scheme and is also alongside the whole of the Iranian state. That means we do expect people to abide by that law and the criminal offences if they don't. criminal offences if they don't.

16:40

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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I visited Iran international during which they expressed their appreciation for the fantastic support they have received from the Metropolitan police and security services. If she hasn't already done so, will she or the Security Minister visit Iran international in order to send the message that the threats to their journalists and those of the BBC Persian service are utterly unacceptable as our threats made to their families based on

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Iran. I thank the Minister for his

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I thank the Minister for his important question. Threats to Iran and national, to its journalists, to

16:41

Mike Tapp MP (Dover and Deal, Labour)

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and national, to its journalists, to a family member are disgraceful and completely unacceptable. He is right to commend the work of the police. The security services in addressing these issues. We take the safety of anyone on UK soil immensely seriously and no threat to the seriously and no threat to the safety of any individual or organisation or journalist will ever be acceptable in the UK.

16:41

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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Thank you to the security services for keeping us safe. It is important that we have the tools to assess the threat or potential threat posed through regular means, such as small boats. Can the secretary update the house on intelligence sharing with our

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international partners? It is an important issue raised

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It is an important issue raised because in order to address these transnational networks and

16:42

Richard Tice MP (Boston and Skegness, Reform UK)

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transnational networks and challenges, whatever form they take, whatever route they take, it is important that we strengthen cooperation and work with international allies. We are looking further at what checks we can do here in the UK and what security

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assessments we can do here as well. The British people will be

16:42

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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appalled to learn that Iranians nationals who have come across the English Channel have been charged with terror offences. I would be concerned that in opposition, we have Jonathan Casey recognising a delay and the right thing to do is prescribe them now, and if any more powers are required, introduce that through emergency legislation but

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don't kick the can down the road. Our border security is national

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Our border security is national security. That is the approach that the government is taking on we will continue to strengthen border security including introducing security including introducing counterterrorism powers. I have also repeatedly called on the government repeatedly called on the government to strengthen the legislation when we were in opposition, strengthening we were in opposition, strengthening the legislation in order to be able to take much stronger action on state backed organisations like the state backed organisations like the IRGC. The Jonathan Hall report that IRGC.

The Jonathan Hall report that is out today identifies the legal difficulties and problems in using legislation that was designed for terrorism to apply to state backed threats. It is important that the legislation, any legislation we legislation, any legislation we apply, is effective and doesn't unravel. That is why we put forward

16:44

Emma Foody MP (Cramlington and Killingworth, Labour )

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unravel. That is why we put forward in 2023 the Labour Party put forward proposals to strengthen the legislation to bring in these new stronger powers that we are now talking about today in order to be able to use those against organisations that are state backed. It is because we believe that national security is so important that we are prepared to take the action needed to make sure that the government, the police, the security agencies have the powers they need to take action and make sure something happens in practice.

16:44

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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I thank the Home Secretary for his statement and want to put on record my thanks for those who work day in and day out to keep our strengths and communities safe, undertaking activities that many of us may never hear about. Can the us may never hear about. Can the Home Secretary provide the assurance that, with this government, the police and security services will await at the powers and resources await at the powers and resources that they need to keep us safe.

16:45

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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My honourable friend is right to talk about the vital work that police and security services do. It is because we so strongly support them that we are now putting forward proposals to strengthen the law to make sure that they do have the powers that they need at all stages,

16:45

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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We understand three individuals concerned entered the country illegally then claimed asylum. Does the Home Secretary agree that this country is particularly attractive to those who wish to claim asylum because it is relatively easy to be successful in that endeavour compared with for example, France. It makes sense to claim asylum here. Does she attribute any of that to Human Rights Act, if so how does she plan to amend it? And does she have cause for concern that those who are tasked with making decisions sometimes are guilty of overzealous application of the law in respect of asylum?

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Air the three individuals he referred to entered the UK between

16:46

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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referred to entered the UK between 2016 and 20 and 2022 and were granted asylum. I can tell him that grants rates for asylum have fallen in the last year and returns of failed asylum seekers have increased. We are also strengthening our border security with counterterrorism powers and also strengthening the cheques around criminality across the immigration and asylum system.

16:47

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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I want to thank the Home Secretary for her statement and also the security minister for his written statement last week on the work on the defendant democracy task. As you will be aware the Human Rights Committee are currently conducting an enquiry into transnational repression which I am sure she will look at the findings very carefully. Can I ask whether the joint unit will be working on transnational repression and bring together cross-party approach so that we can tackle this important issue?

16:47

Rt Hon Mark Pritchard MP (The Wrekin, Conservative)

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My honourable friend raises an important point to know the enquiry Is very important and the security minister will be giving evidence to that enquiry about the work being done on transnational repression including on the work by the Defending Democracy Taskforce. The joint state threats unit is looking at a wide range of issues about how we tackle the kinds of threats we face cross-country.

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As President Trump seeks to negotiate a nuclear deal with Iran

16:48

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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negotiate a nuclear deal with Iran can I ask the stone -- Home Secretary whether she would work with Five Eyes partners and senior ministers across government working with the National Security Council and the national security advisory team in the White House to ensure that any nuclear deal is comprehensive, that doesn't exclude ensuring that Iran is not able to continue to work in proxy form whether through criminal gangs or other states in order that we don't have sanctions lifted without further action in areas that she has discussed today.

16:48

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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The honourable member makes an extremely important point, it's essential that Iran is prevented from developing any further nuclear threats and that is why the US-led talks are so important, we support very strongly. He is also right that this needs to be a competitive approach and it's something that we also, that is an approach we also agree across the Five Eyes partners.

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I associate myself with the praise for our intelligence, police and security services. I welcome the Home Secretary statement about the,

16:49

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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Home Secretary statement about the, -- domination of international cooperation and robust action at home has also set up previously by the security minister. It's critically important when tackling alleged acts of direct threat to life and property, does she agree with me that measures such as the enhanced tab the foreign implementation scheme are really important because we are now at seeing increasingly actions by organised criminal gangs and other groups which are an insidious force in our country and we must deter other states and organisations from the nefarious actions they are taking.

16:50

Lee Anderson MP (Ashfield, Reform UK)

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My honourable friend is right, we are increasingly seeing a pattern where foreign state organisations and up also using criminal proxies to pursue malign activity, and that is why we have to link up to work around serious and organised crime with workaround counterterrorism, with workaround state threats. It's with workaround state threats. It's combining the different hybrid threats that we now face which is why the new national security strategy is so important. strategy is so important.

16:50

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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The Home Secretary in a statement that the Iranian regime poses an unacceptable threat to our domestic security which cannot continue. Yet security which cannot continue. Yet we know that Iranians make up the third-largest -- largest group of illegal migrants crossing channel.

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Does the Home Secretary agree with me that any Iranians crossing the channel should be detained and deported and not allowed to clear asylum? I would say to the honourable

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I would say to the honourable member that I think the system that we inherited from the previous government including a government government including a government that he was at different times a part of was not strong enough and that border security needs to be

16:51

David Pinto-Duschinsky MP (Hendon, Labour)

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treated as a national security issue, it hasn't been for far too long. That's why we are introducing counterterrorism style powers as part of our border security response, I'm really sorry that he and his party chose to vote against those counterterrorism powers repeatedly because we do need those powers introduced. It's why we are also strengthening the security and criminality checks across the asylum and in system because we need to make sure that we are doing everything possible to keep our country safe.

country safe.

16:51

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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I would like to start by welcoming the measures I write honourable friend has announced today and join her in paying tribute to the security services and thank them for keeping us safe. The actions of the last few days and underlined the profound threat Iran poses to our country. Many of the Iranian community in my constituency in Hendon live in fear of transnational repression. Could my right honourable friend say a little bit more about what the government is doing to protect our Iranian community and all those who live in fear of transnational repression so they can live lives in freedom in Britain?

16:52

David Reed MP (Exmouth and Exeter East, Conservative)

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He is right that transnational repression has become a growing threat and challenge, not just from Iran but from other countries as well. The security minister provided well. The security minister provided an update to the House just last week on the further actions we are taking including further support for those who are being targeted and those who are being targeted and further advice and guidance as well for those who face threats and those are the kinds of threats as well that our police and security service are particularly vigilant towards.

To ensure that everyone in our country can feel confident they will be kept safe.

16:53

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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Can the Home Secretary explain why the British envoy in Teheran was summoned by the Iranian authorities at the weekend? And more importantly does this not signal a complete disconnect from reality on the part of the Iranian state?

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I think the honourable member is right to raise this, we have made

16:53

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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right to raise this, we have made extremely clear our views to the Iranian regime about the unacceptability of state backed threats on our soil including the summoning of the Iranian and that to the UK but also including further measures not just in the foreign influence registration scheme but in the further measures we are now going to take forward in response to Jonathan Hall's report. It is immensely important that the Iranian regime hears the point that we are making and that we are raising and understands our determination to protect the security of those on UK soil.

16:54

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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I thank the Home Secretary for her statement today and the work that she has done on this really important issue for top can I put on record my thanks and thanks for the people of Harlow for the work the police and security service due to keep us all safe. Does she agree with me that as methods of the state but agents change and adapt we also need to change and adapt, I think of as my writable friend from day over mentioned in intelligence gathering and the Jonathan Hall report.

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He is right, the Jonathan Hall report identifies a series of areas where we have long-standing counterterrorism powers but they go further than the kinds of powers we have around state back threats. That

16:54

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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might be something as simple as the power for the police to set a chording up around the target of a potential terrorist incident, they should have the same ability to do that about a potential target for estate threat incident. We will be looking to take forward those powers but in order to be able to most effectively use them we also need the best intelligence gathering we already have, the best security intelligence agencies in the world they need to be able to work evermore strongly with international partners as well.

partners as well.

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Can I thank the Secretary of State very much for her words and strong words and determine words and actions as well we appreciate that. I offer my thanks to the counterterrorism unit for this work,

16:55

Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)

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counterterrorism unit for this work, I note it's the tip of the iceberg of the work carried out to keep a Across the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. The rest of these asylum seekers naturally highlight the failings in the system and I say this regardless of whatever party was in power at various times through that journey, what assurances will this government take regarding the influx of young single men claiming asylum who seem empowered to declare war against this nation that has fed and close them for so many years, and how do we assure our British public, my British public that the end has come to housing needs for foreign nationals you hate this nation and

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all it stands for. The honourable member is right to

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The honourable member is right to pay tribute to the police and security intelligence services and he will know more than many in this House the nature of the complexity of the wide range of different kinds of the wide range of different kinds of threats our agencies have had to of threats our agencies have had to deal with through the years, they continued needs to deal with issues continued needs to deal with issues around terrorist threats from Islamist extremists to far right extremism, they have of course had extremism, they have of course had to deal with many years threats and Northern Ireland terror threats as Northern Ireland terror threats as well.

And they have to deal with the changing around state threats and the different forms that those the different forms that those threats can take, the way in which those interact with criminality as well this government has made clear we see border security part of we see border security part of national security, something the Prime Minister said in his speech to Interpol before Christmas and is why we are strengthening the counterterrorism powers we are using

16:57

Ministerial statement: Legal Aid Agency: Cybersecurity incident

and bringing forward through this House but also strengthening that international corporations why we held the first sonnet, first-ever international summit on nice immigration crime because we see that as a national security issue as

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well. That concludes the statement and before we move onto the next statement I will give a few moments

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Statement, Statement, Minister Statement, Minister Sarah Statement, Minister Sarah Sackman. Statement, Minister Sarah Sackman.

16:58

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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With your permission I will make a statement about an incident that a statement about an incident that has affected Legal Aid Agency, an executive agency of the Ministry of Justice. The House will appreciate that while investigations are ongoing there are limits to the amount of information that I can share publicly. However the government wishes to be as transparent as possible with Parliament and I will provide an update based on the information that we currently have. On Wednesday, 23 April the Legal Aid Agency became aware of a cyber-attack on its online digital services.

These are the services through which legal aid providers log their work and receive payment from the government. The government of course took immediate action to bolster the security of the system. Working closely with experts at the National Crime Agency, government cyber coordination centre, and the National Cyber Security Centre. We have alerted the Information Commmissioner and importantly informed all legal aid providers that some of their details had been compromised. We also took some Legal Aid Agency systems off-line between the seventh and 11th of May to carry out work to contain the breach.

Officials have been working around the clock to stabilise the system and support a complex investigation. I can now confirm that the cyber- attack was more extensive than originally thought. On Friday, 16 May we learn from the attackers behind it that they had accessed a large amount of information relating to legal aid applicants we assessed the threat to be credible. We believe they have access and downloaded a significant amount of personal data from those who applied for legal aid through our digital service sometime since 2010.

That data may include applicants contact details, addresses, dates of birth, national ID numbers, nor history, employment status and financial data. Such as contribution amounts, debts and payments. I should stress this does not mean that every individual involved will be impacted in the same way. But we did need to act to safeguard the service and its users. In line with advice from the National Cyber Security Centre, the Legal Aid Agency took its online services down on Friday. I urge all members of the public who have applied for legal aid since 2010 to be on high alert for any suspicious activity.

That includes messages and phone calls from unknown numbers. If anyone is in any doubt at all please take steps to verify a person's identity before sharing any information. I understand the gravity of these events and at this stage we believe the breach is contained to the Legal Aid Agency systems. There are no indications that other parts of the justice The government is committed to making every effort to make sure that the recovery of legal aid continues. We have put in place contingency plans to ensure those most in need of legal support can continue to access the support they need.

This house should be in no doubt that the agency has suffered an attack on its systems at the hands of criminals. Sadly, this attack is not altogether surprising. The vulnerabilities and the legal aid systems have been known for many years. The risk of such an attack was steadily growing through the last governments tenure but they took no meaningful action for the systems leaving them vulnerable to attack. The previous government was repeatedly warned about the legal aid agency systems being old, inflexible and unstable.

In 2023, the Law Society called on the government to urgently invest in the legal aid agencies digital systems. Saying the system was too fragile to cope. In March 2024, the Law Society pointed to the antiquated IT system as evidence of the long-term neglect of our system. In short, this data breach was made possible by the long years of neglect and mismanagement of the justice system under the last Conservative government. They knew about the vulnerabilities of the legal agency digital systems but they failed to act.

By contrast, since taking off, this government has prioritised work to reverse the damage of over a decade of overinvestment. This includes allocating over £20 million extra funding this year to stabilise and transform the legal aid agency digital services. I am extremely grateful to legal aid providers across the country for their patience and cooperation and to Ministry of Justice officials for their ongoing efforts to secure the system. The investigation is live and this government will do everything it can to seek justice.

Recent events have shown that every organisation no matter how big or small is at risk from this type of criminal behaviour. Government is not exempt. This incident has nonetheless illustrated in terms that the legal aid digital systems are critically fragile and simply not fit for the 21st-century. When I took up this ministerial role, I was frankly shocked to see just how fragile. This government adopted a sector that has been neglected for too long. We have been stabilising the systems and we have kickstarted an ambitious reform programme to transform them.

That means creating a modern user-friendly resilient service. It will also deliver a more flexible service so that we can implement changes faster and better respond to changing demands. This transformation will take time and in transformation will take time and in light of this incredibly serious incident, my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor and I are exploring options to expedite program and put our systems on a more secure footing. This government will not help state to protect our vital services because without legal aid, our justice system would grind to a halt.

This is an ongoing and sensitive issue in our investigation and mitigating action continues. To make sure that honourable and right honourable members are updated, I course.

17:05

Dr Kieran Mullan MP (Bexhill and Battle, Conservative)

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I think the Minister for Health statement and I have to say that I found it pretty disappointing to see it as written. Before I saw a statement, I drafted one of my own and said I would limit my remarks and begin with strong words of support for what I expected to be the Minister devoting at least a significant part of her statement condemning the immoral criminal actors responsible for this attack. But if you listen closely, the chamber will have heard that the Minister spent most of her time making party attacks and managed to sum up early one sentence of condemnation.

I suggest the Minister looks at her statement when she leaves the chamber and reflects on that. I would do what she said, that we should never lose site of whatever any governments roll past or present for unsuccessfully defending against such attacks, the primary responsibility for all those worried by what happened, taxpayers who will pick up the bill sets with the despicable criminals who carried it out. This is not just an attack on a digital system but an attack on some of the most vulnerable in our society.

Their data, deeply personal in some areas has been exposed. It is utterly appalling. We welcome the National Crime Agency and cybersecurity centre I hope the Minister will agree with me when I say that those behind this breach must be brought to justice and that nothing can stand in the way of fully accountability for this crime. While addressing this is paramount, whatever the Minister will say, I do have some questions about this governance response. Firstly, why was the decision taken not to inform this house about the breach when it was first discovered on 23 April? We are now learning about applicants going back as 2010 with over 2 million pieces of information access.

The delay in public notification and/or understanding of the nature of attack for nearly a month could have hinted individuals from taking necessary steps to protect themselves from potential harm such as fraud and harassment. Second, the Minister mentions taking off-line systems crucial for legal rational payments. Can she provide an update on the status of these systems? What is the estimated timeline for their restoration? She mentions contingency plans because you tell us more about those plans? Can the Minister share any information regarding the origin? Is there any indication as to whether it is believed to be a criminal enterprise.

Fourthly, has a Ministry of Justice looked at this across other systems and across wider government? The attackers changed but on what basis has you reach this conclusion? The Minister will know challenges met by previous governments but what specific improvements will be achieved by this funding and by when? And this funding and by when? And finally, I would ask the Minister for her full transparency as for her full transparency as investigations progress. She mentions seeking to make the public more generally aware about these issues but which also ensure that those affected are directly contacted and offered appropriate contacted and offered appropriate support and can she reiterate the commitment to making sure those responsible are brought to justice? responsible are brought to justice? The security of the justice system and vulnerable individuals depend on a robust and transparent response to this.

17:08

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Thank you. My noble friend is absolutely right that those responsible for this attack on our justice system are criminals. No ifs, no Butts. They have perpetrated on our legal aid systems is not only dangerous for legal aid exposing data, and the threat made to governments are entirely unacceptable and malicious and the government will be robust in its response and in pursuing justice. I think I did make that clear in my statement.

It is also important that we are honest and frank about the vulnerability of the legacy IT systems which supports our legal aid system, and it is the vulnerability of that system that exposed both legal aid providers and end users, some of the most honourable people in our society to an unacceptable level of risk. And it is that in the short-term in terms of eliminating the threat but also in the long-term in investing in the resilience and future transformation of these platforms that I am focused so that we who are responsible for legal aid system and wider justice system do not expose people to this risk again in future.

He asks why the house was not informed at the point when ministers were informed in late April. And the reason for that is simple. At the point when ministers were first informed about the exposure of the legal aid agencies digital platforms to this risk, the full extent of that risk, what data and the extent of the data that was put at risk was not fully understood? As a minister sitting here, I have competing responsibilities. I have a responsibility to keep the legal aid system going to ensure that those who need to access legal support can do so to ensure that those who are providing legal aid support to vulnerable clients are getting paid, and at that point, the level of understood risk and the proportionality between that and the responsibility to keep the system going outweighed any need to inform this house of the exposure of the system.

I can say however that most people in this system, the legally providers and their clients, they were informed, as was the information commission as we are legally obliged to do, and at the point where the greater extent of risk became known, we have promptly and transparently informed the house of the position, and I think that is both transparent and proportionate response to our understanding of what is evolving criminal threat. He asks about the restoration of the system. The system has currently been closed down and the reason it has been closed down is to negate the threat and further exposure of legal aid providers and users.

We will not reopen the existing system until we are satisfied that it is safe to do so, and he will understand that I can't comment further on what is a sensible investigation. What I can say is that we have put in place contingency plans to ensure that those who apply for legal support in the coming days and weeks and those who are accessing legal aid currently can provide that information through alternative means through the agency so we can keep the show on the road as it were.

He asks about wider government exposure. Of course, as I have mentioned, we know that whether it is government departments, local authorities, universities or some of our most well-known businesses are regrettably exposed to the sorts of criminal activity that the legal aid agency has currently experienced, but for what we know at present, this particular attack is confined to the legal aid agency and doesn't go any wider than that. He asks to about long-term plans. The long-term plans involve a significant investment of £20 million to stabilise and transform the service.

Part of the reason that we know about today's threat is because of the investments that we have made since we came into government, so part of the reason that we discovered this threat and became alive to the fact that there were hackers infiltrating the system is because of the work that we have been doing to stabilise and transform that very system, and that work has to continue. As I've said, we will be looking to see whether we can expedite some of that work to bake in resilience into the system going forward.

He asks about full transparency and keeping the house up-to-date. I will provide a written update in due course and I can undertake today to provide that full transparency because, after all, transparency because, after all, this is about both legal aid providers who have been kept fully informed along the way, as have our informed along the way, as have our professional bodies such as the Law Society Council, many of whom are Society Council, many of whom are legal aid providers themselves. We have kept them up-to-date on this journey because we need all of them working with a robust system to deliver the justice and legal aid that people so sorely need.

that people so sorely need.

17:14

Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)

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The loss of very sensitive data relating to so many vulnerable people over such a long time period makes this one of the most serious data breaches of recent years. It is also a wake-up call for the legal aid agency IT system and the government more generally. I appreciate that we have inherited this to Barca but it is on her desk now. Could she confirm the numbers now. Could she confirm the numbers affected, whether the leaks have been stemmed and what steps are been stemmed and what steps are being taken to recover the data, and there are more questions that there there are more questions that there is not time to deal with here.

She says she will do a written statement, but will she also look at the Select Committee to show what steps have been taken to rectify the situation?

17:15

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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I thank him for that question. He will appreciate that, whilst the investigation is ongoing, it would be inappropriate for me to comment in any great detail. As he and the rest of the house will imagine, if we are talking about those who have applied or been in receipt of legal aid since 2010, and all the legal providers in this country that have had legal aid contracts with the government, one gets a sense of the scale of the exposure.

It is a very serious breach indeed. Those maligned criminals that have been responsible for this have given a figure which has been trailed in some of the newspapers for the amounts of data that they have got and those who have read the papers will know that that is in the region of 2 million items of data, so one can see that the scale of the can see that the scale of the problem is very serious indeed. I should say that figure can't be verified and I won't comment in verified and I won't comment in further detail, but in respect of his request that both the G FC and opposition parties are kept up-to- opposition parties are kept up-to- date as this investigation develops, and as we take steps to eliminate and as we take steps to eliminate this risk from our systems, I am this risk from our systems, I am

17:16

Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)

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I thank the Minister for the advanced site of her statement. Hundreds of thousands of people across the country including many of my patch of Eastbourne will be hugely concerned that information is in the hands of deplorable criminals whose identities we do not know and his further intentions are unclear and they should face the full force of the law. This damages especially profound -- profound because the state's ability to steward the public state undermines people's trust in our justice system itself.

More than that, given that legal aid applicants are the victims here, this data breach risks disproportionately undermining the trust of some of the most vulnerable people in our society. The last government should hang their heads in shame for ignoring the law society's 2023 calls to address these abilities while they had the chance. This government must urgently restore trust. I got a few questions in pursuit of that. First of all, how will the Minister proactively communicate with all those affected about this breach to provide guidance and support.

Second, would you consider launching for example a dedicated advice line for anyone who is worried about what this means for them? Thirdly, the Legal Aid Agency services were taken off-line last Friday as the Minister confirmed, how will the Minister ensure that this doesn't compromise ensure that this doesn't compromise people's access to legal aid in the meantime? And finally, will the government conduct a cyber-security review of all of the systems that uses across its remit to identify and address further vulnerabilities and address further vulnerabilities before they are exploited at the expense of our constituents? expense of our constituents?

17:18

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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He is absolutely right that incidents like this are perpetrated by cyber criminals represent an attack on our justice system, they are corrosive of trust and he is absolutely right that in so doing they are hitting some of the most vulnerable in our society and that angers me frankly. The response needs to be commensurate to the damage they have done not just in respect of stealing people's private data, but of the damage they are doing to the wider system in terms of undermining trust.

In terms of proactively communicating with people and with the sector, we have already been taking a proactive approach. As soon as the risk and the exposure of the system to these hackers was identified, legal aid providers were updated on their exposure and told to take proactive security steps. That communication has been updated and we are as well Statement in constant communication with those legal aid providers full stop one can imagine the legal aid providers are really the most important point to call here because it is they who have the relationship with their clients, a relationship of trust.

They also will be invited to pass on the warnings and messages that are coming from the government. We are also where we know of particular individuals whose data may have been exposed and may be particularly vulnerable communicating directly with them. I will take away his suggestion of an advice line but I think for now that is going to be the most important and effective way of disseminating warnings and keeping people up-to- date as the situation evolves. In terms of the wider security threat to government and other vulnerabilities, the government in any event before this attack had indicated that we will have a new indicated that we will have a new side that -- national side strategy side that -- national side strategy by the end of the year.

We are also intending to introduce the cyber- security resilience bill which is looking to improve and strengthen government cyber defences and government cyber defences and government responses to attacks just government responses to attacks just like this one so all that is going to be important improving resilience not just of the Legal Aid Agency but of cyber systems right across government. A recent Public Accounts Committee enquiry found the government found significant gaps in the understanding of how resilient its IT state is to cyber-attack for top it was William entrusting to hear the work ongoing by the Minister but I urge are in all departments invited this very serious incident to ensure that they are urgently assessing the robustness of cyber defence not only in arm's-length bodies like the in arm's-length bodies like the Legal Aid Agency but also legacy IT systems and in the supply chain

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which the committee found to be known areas of weakness to ensure that we have a strong cyber defence in Whitehall as possible. She is absolutely right that

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She is absolutely right that legacy IT systems, whether in government or indeed as I said across local authorities, other across local authorities, other across local authorities, other bodies such as universities, businesses big and small, some of the most famous businesses in the the most famous businesses in the country as we know have recently been exposed to the source of risks whether it cyber-attacks coming from state actors or from organised crime state actors or from organised crime as appears to be the case in this particular incident one of the most particular incident one of the most serious abilities of our governmental systems.

That is precisely what today's incident that I'm updating the House highlights. I'm updating the House highlights. It's why the National Cyber Security It's why the National Cyber Security Strategy is going to be so important Strategy is going to be so important in terms of identifying how at pace in terms of identifying how at pace we build up our resilience and protect against these minor abilities which are systemwide and affects public and private actors

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alive -- alike. In recent months the UK has experienced a number of very high profile cyber-attacks right across the public and private sector. Does the Minister agree that now is the the Minister agree that now is the time to update the computer must 1990 to enhance cyber-security three strengthens legal protections for cyber-security researchers and if yes, which department is responsible

17:23

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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for bringing about this change? You will know that the cyber-

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You will know that the cyber- security and resilience bill is being introduced in the session. The being introduced in the session. The focus of that very bill to improve the cyber defences of this country and it does that through bolstering regulator support, through bolstering the regular Tory framework and setting out how our national security agencies can provide a strengthened and emboldened response to such attacks it seems to me that is the appropriate legislative vehicle for delivering what I think we all wish delivering what I think we all wish to see which is a more robust defence of our cyber systems.

17:23

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Can I thank the Minister for her Mobile this attack is an attack on some of those vulnerable people in our society can I ask what residents in Harlow can do if they are concerned that their data has been taken by these criminals. And how

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they can actually get legal aid if they need it. I thank him for that very important question. I would suggest that they can do two things. Firstly that they can do two things. Firstly to be in touch with their legal aid provider because that will be the provider because that will be the source of that data sharing and will have been the source of the application for legal aid but also to get in touch directly if they are concerned that their data may have concerned that their data may have been affected with the Legal Aid

17:24

Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)

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been affected with the Legal Aid Agency. For those who need to apply for legal aid, legal aid providers have been informed how they can continue to do that because it is vital that we don't allow the justice system to grind to a halt and those that need emergency legal aid can continue to access it and we've put in those business contingency plans to make sure there is no one in this country whether in Harlow or anywhere else he will be prevented from or delayed in accessing leg laid we work to

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resolve this issue. -- Legal aid. The Minister will be aware of the rising number of cyber-attacks both by criminals and by hostile state

17:25

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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by criminals and by hostile state actors, can I also express my disappointment that she has chosen to try to make party political points. Instead can she say whether , like for instance the Dragon Force group or the scattered spiders group Ukraine responsibly for the attacks on the Co-op and Marks & Spencer, and can she also say whether or not checks are being made across government to identify any security breaches that may not yet have been acted on by those who are responsible?

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I'm not going to disclose the name of the perpetrators of this name of the perpetrators of this malign attack, it would not be responsible of me to do so while the investigation is life and what they

17:26

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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investigation is life and what they are being pursued not least through legal avenues -- live. I'm not able to share that information at the moment but what I am able -- when I am able to share it I will update the House.

17:26

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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In her zeal to have a pop at the previous government the Minister implied that this country was peculiarly vulnerable to cyber- attack and people listening to her out there may be encouraged by that. Would she correct the record and reflect on the International telecommunications Union global cyber-security index which found Britain to be right at the very top of the league table for cyber- security with countries known to be experts such as Estonia and Germany. Would you agree with me that whilst we must not be complacent it's important to tell the whole truth?

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As I said, those responsible are the baddies here. Let me be the baddies here. Let me be absolutely clear, I was absolutely shocked when I came into the Department to find the state of the Department to find the state of the Legal Aid Agency's icy -- IT legacy systems. Fragile, vulnerable, at systems. Fragile, vulnerable, at risk and thank -- frankly not fit for purpose. That's not my view, for purpose. That's not my view, that's the view of the Law Society, that's the view of the Law Society, that's the view of lots of users who use an arcane system that is not only slow but we have now found is so fragile that it has exposed many

17:27

Iqbal Mohamed MP (Dewsbury and Batley, Independent)

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so fragile that it has exposed many of its users to an unconscionable That's not good enough, that's not talking down the system that is the talking down the system that is the state of the system and it's that vulnerability that has been exposed by these malign actors. The fact is the previous government knew about it and failed to fix it, we are not it and failed to fix it, we are not going to make the same mistake.

17:27

I thank the Minister for her statement and she is absolutely right. I join the opposition in condemning the criminals who perpetrated this attack. She has already explained what constituents who may be impacted should do and I who may be impacted should do and I won't ask her to repeat that. But can she assure this House that the can she assure this House that the learnings from the cyber-attack are already being applied across already being applied across government and public sector and if there are extra steps required to there are extra steps required to access legal aid or process payments access legal aid or process payments by legal aid providers, will the providers be compensated accordingly? accordingly?

17:28

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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It's absolutely right that once we have resolved this investigation, once we can be assured that the hackers are no longer in the system and that people's data is safe, once we can be assured that our legal aid platform is operating properly and is handling people's data in the Safeway, at that point there will need to be a stock-take -- in a safe way, and an effort to learn lessons not least as we embark, we are already in that process, of stabilising and transforming this system so it is fit for the future.

No doubt there will be lessons from this particular attack for other public and government bodies. The question of compensation is one that question of compensation is one that I think we must wait for another day. My priority is removing the hackers from the system, making sure they feel the full force of the law they feel the full force of the law and ensuring that in the meantime there is no person that needs legal aid but cannot get it and that the system continues to operate.

Recent cyber-attacks on retail targets have highlighted the cost to businesses and individuals of an organisation's failure to take cyber-security sufficiently seriously. This attack on the Legal Aid Agency resulted in the theft of millions of pieces of deeply sensitive personal data is perhaps the most egregious yet. My question is why it is -- has taken a newspaper article to bring the Minister to the chamber and what else isn't she telling us?

17:30

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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I'm afraid she has got her chronology the wrong way round, the reason there was a newspaper article is because the Ministry of Justice published a public statement as soon became aware of the full extent of the threat and the reason it did that was to protect legal aid providers and indeed the end users their client. So in fact exactly the wrong way round.

17:30

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Can I thank the Minister very much for her answers and for the reassurances as well. The legal aid system is an imperative cog in the wheels of justice and the attack on this must be seen as an attack on justice as well can the Minister outline whether this attack encompasses legal aid details from across the entirety of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and what discussions have taken place if that is right with the Ministry of Justice for Northern Ireland where people will have justified fears for their address is being linked -- leaked to those who may harm them.

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And what is in place for those who may fear such as domestic abuse victims? I thank him for that question, my

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I thank him for that question, my understanding is that the entirety understanding is that the entirety of the Legal Aid Agency system has been exposed, we don't know the full extent and we won't know the full extent and we won't know the full extent of that exposure and the theft that has taken place until investigations have completed but as for that reason we have taken the for that reason we have taken the for that reason we have taken the We will make sure that we are in We will make sure that we are in contact with all the devolved nations and regions to make sure that legal aid providers the length that legal aid providers the length and breadth of the United Kingdom are kept informed, and he is

17:32

Dave Doogan MP (Angus and Perthshire Glens, Scottish National Party)

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are kept informed, and he is absolutely right. Some of the most vulnerable people in our society in receipt of legal aid will be feeling more vulnerable today and I deeply regret that, and it is what makes me so furious about what has happened, and I would encourage them to be super vigilant, to be in touch with their providers and for those providers to contact the legal aid agency and contact us with any particular vulnerabilities, and indeed where they need to continue providing legal aid to those clients.

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That concludes the statements.

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That concludes the statements. You made a call last week that Mr Speaker granted an urgent question to my colleague, the honourable to my colleague, the honourable member for Aberdeen North to discuss

17:33

Judith Cummins MP (Bradford South, Labour)

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member for Aberdeen North to discuss the adherents of the government of the Ministerial Code. During that Urgent Question, I asserted that there was no such similar burden and duty on a Scottish government ministers. I would like to make clear to the house that my office is clarified with me that the Scottish clarified with me that the Scottish code provision 10.1 and 6.24 actually do confer broadly the same actually do confer broadly the same duty upon Scottish government ministers. I've never misled the ministers.

I've never misled the House before and I'm very grateful to you giving me this opportunity to correct the data.

17:33

Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)

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18:03

Rt Hon Edward Argar MP (Melton and Syston, Conservative)

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18:21

Neil Coyle MP (Bermondsey and Old Southwark, Labour)

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budgets. I also see the impact on whole neighbourhoods of someone's ill-health causing them to behave erratically, sometimes anti socially with noise and drugs often being interrelated issues and police involvement following, going by involvement following, going by criminals to take advantage of vulnerable people sadly for the this growing phenomenon on is what I hope growing phenomenon on is what I hope this bill was challenge and it would be good to hear if communities will be good to hear if communities will be able to trigger interventions to support people in crisis including landlords and neighbours where appropriate.

Just two weeks ago I appropriate. Just two weeks ago I joined ride along with the police, some might say is not the first time some might say is not the first time at help the police with their enquiries but I saw again on this ride along, it's my third with the ride along, it's my third with the local police, that there is still a consistent and sad overlap with consistent and sad overlap with mental health crises. I ended my shift with those police officers at shift with those police officers at King's College trying to seek support for one ill individual man.

Section Section 135 Section 135 and Section 135 and 136 Section 135 and 136 powers Section 135 and 136 powers delivered in Lords amendments to ensure other trained and qualified support to reduce the time police otherwise loose, this would save thousands of hours per week for officers time in London alone and redirect police areas were needed. Going back further, the commission where I was working up to 2005 the Mental Capacity Act, I recall organisations being almost envious of that legislation and the need to reform the Mental Health Act even then.

Wondering when access to advocacy will be delivered for people with mental health conditions as well, that it is sad that there has been decades in between but I'm glad this legislation is before us today for the advanced choices document are a step forward in returning greater choice and control lost over recent years as services declined under the last government, the use of nominated persons as outlined, they also offer great step forward and access to extended use of independent mental health advocates one hospital which should be automatic as mine have advocated.

It's great that legislation is here based on the inner patent review in principles underpinning it, and I wanted to add something on a more personal level because going back further, the reason I became more aware of politics was my own mother's diagnosis roughly the same time the Secretary of State was born her diagnosis of schizophrenia in the early '80s when we think was the schizophrenia Fellowship. She's been through the Milner decades in between I won't suggest that she's been detained more times than I've had hot dinners because you can see that's not true by my waistline but the fact that the mental health act hasn't been updated since then is appalling frankly I never drained where I joined the Labour Party I To be part of improving the legislation as an MP here today but I wanted the flags and concerns based on family experience.

Recently mum has just told us that she believes she works at a bank. This was news to us in the family, no doubt it was news to the bank, but she hasn't had to work for some time. I can laugh about it but it is upsetting that she is unwell, it is frustrating that it is the system that is mad and maddening for us as a family trying to access support. She denies she is unwell and refuses to see, the last time this happened she was sectioned for six weeks, and believe me she was very rude when she came out.

Slam estimated cost 3,000 a week to keep someone in hospital, NHS England but of value of 20,004 detained someone until Well those costs could be lower if GPs act faster, my question is will this -- legislation result in better triggers being used, this isn't about AI this is about known data in existing systems to exact -- get interventions. This helps the family avoid the pain and suffering they also share with someone is unwell, say the community of misery, say the community of misery, potentially save the police that a fortune that might have been avoided, and save the NHS thousands in avoidable hospitalisations and treatments.

GPs can be part of the solution here but too often like the surgery in Luton they pass the buck and avoid the issue attending everything is OK despite prescriptions being uncollected and the inevitability of mental ill- health rising fast. I hope this leads to better community care as outlined, I also hope that GPs will Outreach work from mental health trusts to anyone not collecting repeat prescriptions for example. I hope this will be confirmed more clearly as legislation comes forward with the government will be able to accept an amendment along these lines because the final link here is that legislation should come with targets reduced readmission and sectioning as part of government plans.

If this is successful people won't be discharged and readmitted in quick succession and patients known to the system won't require routine readmission. With the right support the dysfunctional system can be replaced with huge benefits of people's mental health and huge savings for the NHS and there were 52,000 detentions last year, I hope the government will set out how that figure will fall. I conclude by saying I look forward to supporting this bill, it will be transformative for people I serve and in my community and people I love in my own family, it will be transformative the millions of

18:27

Dr Danny Chambers MP (Winchester, Liberal Democrat)

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18:41

Dr Marie Tidball MP (Penistone and Stocksbridge, Labour)

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18:55

Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)

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19:12

Lauren Edwards MP (Rochester and Strood, Labour)

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charity local to me called the Challenging Behaviour Foundation or cbf, which is the only UK charity focusing on the needs of children, young people, adults with severe learning disability whose behaviour may be described as challenging. Although visit I was shocked to learn that under the Mental Health Act autistic people with a learning disability can be detained indefinitely just because they are autistic or have a learning disability. I thank the member for sharing his extensive professional experience with us, but I do disagree on one point and that is, in my view it is a case that autism and learning disability are not mental health conditions, I do not believe that they should be treated as such.

That is the view of a lot of people in the sector I have spoken to in advance of this debate. This is an issue that is currently affecting a lot of people, is what honourable Friend said, there are over 2000 autistic people people with learning disabilities who are in mental health hospitals in England today. The vast majority of whom are there under the Mental Health Act. I think it is important to point out that around 225 of them are aged under 18, so it is affecting a lot of our young people.

Mental health hospitals are often inappropriate for autistic people people with a learning disability. Once detained they can get stuck for many years in these settings, and it can be deeply overwhelming and damaging. And lead to lifelong trauma. As my honourable friend also mentioned, the average length of stay for current inpatient is nearly 5 years. We have to ask ourselves why that is. The latest available data shows that some of the key reasons for delaying discharge is a lack of suitable housing and lack of social care.

Charities like CBF histories of abuse, unnecessary medication, and seclusion in the What happened at Winterbourne view Hospital bringing attention to the fact that many people with a learning disability or autistic people being detained in hospital them they could and should be living in the community. Since then there have been numerous policy interventions and action plans by previous governments. Sadly, they have not resulted in the change that was promised, and national targets to reduce inpatient numbers have been lost and missed. Legislative change is clearly needed and I welcome the change to the criteria in this bill which will mean that autistic people and those with a learning disability cannot be detained for treatment unless they have a co-occurring mental health condition which requires inpatient mental health care.

However, on page 72 of the impact assessment, the government says that the proposed changes will only be switched on when systems are able to demonstrate sufficient levels of community support. Ensuring an appropriate level of service in the community is absolutely crucial, in supporting autistic people and people with learning disabilities to be discharged out of hospital, preventing needs of escalating, and admission to mental health hospitals in the first instance. However, without a comprehensive and fully resourced plan to build capacity in the community, and to enable this change to be switched on, there are concerns that this vital reform could be delayed for far too long.

So I urge the government to publish a comprehensive plan for how it intends to ensure that change to the criteria can be commenced, and ensure accountability in this ensure accountability in this process. And ideally this will be in 2027 in line with modelling in the impact assessment. I also ask that it be co-produced with the very people who will be affected by the change. The previous government building the right support service model could act as a starting point but I also like to draw the attention of the Minister to the challenging behaviour and national strategy group which is coordinated by CBF which has developed a co- produced life action plan which sets out the changes that need to be made to get community support right alongside resources and best practice.

I carried the Minister to meet families to better understand the impact of inappropriate detention of people with a learning disability or autism and their families, I would be happy to help

19:17

Chris Coghlan MP (Dorking and Horley, Liberal Democrat)

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Eight months ago in my maiden speech I said they would succeed in changing the law that would change the law that prevented her saving her son. We are now on the cusp of changing the law. We only got this far thanks to the National Autistic Society, and two MPs from working across the chamber to get justice. Including the honourable and right honourable members for Godalming, Rotherham, Kingston, steadfast support from my own particle Liberal Democrats, the Prime Minister, and support from the government.

This represents Parliament at its best. We've only got this far because ITV ran the story, but of -- above all because of the mothers intend to save others from the fate of her son. They are in the gallery today. Christopher was unlike many autistic children. -- Not unlike. He was sensitive and intelligent, loving and compassionate, a boy who once asked his mum to stop on the way to school to rescue a lamb stock in a fence.

I first met Fiona when I was eight, I stayed in my bedroom and I ignored her. Perhaps I was angry she was buying a home of my dad. My mum died when I was three months old and I was a sensitive boy. Well, they moved in, Christopher grew up in my old bedroom. And he loved the house as much as I did. But as a young man living alone in Leeds he had struggled. Despite Fiona pleading for help for years, she was never able to obtain for him the mental capacity assessment he needed to determine what support he needed.

Horrifically he was exploited and murdered by a man who had just been released from jail. Christopher was 24. And so we are working with the government on an amendment to ensure the views of family members are considered when determining what the requirements are for an adult for a mental capacity assessment. Christopher's story is not unique. In 2022 alone King's College London found 95 preventable deaths for people with learning disabilities where the mental capacity act had not been properly followed.

It can be hard to grasp the scale of the crisis in this country. But when tens of thousands of SEND children out of school, 1,800 in Surrey out of school, 1,800 in Surrey alone, when we are losing autistic children to avoidable suicide, and when at its worst we are abandoning autistic people in their 20s to murderers, we are failing a generation. How we answer their calls for justice will serve to measure who we are. I believe the answer is less a question of money than a question of leadership.

Because we know from Noble Laureate James Heckman that early intervention is exponentially more effective and economic than today's brutal system which cost the lives of Christopher, Jennifer, and to many others. Although this amendment is only a small part of the answer it is an answer to save lives. If one grieving mother can change the law, perhaps we could change the other things as well. If we did succeed it would be above all because of the voices of the broken but unbeaten parents like Fiona demanding change.

Although Christopher had a difficult life, he did have the most precious thing that any man can have, a loving and devoted mum. So it is up to us to ensure Fiona is a witness, that in our country as possible for the vulnerable to be heard, for justice to overcome, and to find beyond

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grief hope. I now call Kevin McKenna.

19:21

Kevin McKenna MP (Sittingbourne and Sheppey, Labour)

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19:32

Gregory Stafford MP (Farnham and Bordon, Conservative)

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Despite having worked in healthcare for most of my career being on the health and social care Select Committee, I have to say, living to the speeches thus far this evening I feel in all of the experience of honourable members on all sides of the house but particularly the Ongwen before Sittingbourne and Sheppey and my honourable friend Runnymede and Weybridge. I want to commend a very powerful speech from the honourable Member when I was supported by my honourable friend.

This bill is essentially about the duty of care. Duty of care to those who have mental health issues, but also to the public. Which includes the family, friends, carers, the public servants, and all those who interact with that individual. But also it is there to protect them from themselves. As many members have said, it should be a hope and ambition that as few people as possible find themselves in a crisis situation. Therefore I entirely endorse support and comment about ensuring that we have proper well funded mental health services both in the community and in the acute

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setting. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. He mentions the point about the support for the person needing help, to help themselves, but also help people from society. Does he agree with me that today, Does he agree with me that today, before this bill is passed, more and more people get in a situation where more people get in a situation where they are not feeling that they are being helped and they are feeling

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incarcerated and restricted? I agree with the honourable gentleman as far as the point he gentleman as far as the point he makes, that more can be done to help in a crisis. What I would say, in a crisis. What I would say, however, and I think my honourable Friend from Runnymede and Weybridge Friend from Runnymede and Weybridge made this point, that people are at such a point that they do unfortunately need to be unfortunately need to be incarcerated in order to help themselves and hopefully they spend that time not just been taken away from society that actually treated from society that actually treated effectively and appropriately.

But this brings me onto the point that this is a balancing act, and is a difficult situation. We are all clear on all sides of the house that the current situation and the current act is no longer fit for purpose. Especially when we think about forensic mental health. So I'm glad the government is taking for this legislation which was started under the previous government. I think that cross-party consensus that we have had this evening is reflective of the fact that this legislation has come from both the major parties sitting in the house.

I am likely to be on the Bill , Whitsun recess so won't go through every concern I have but I want to raise three important areas that I'm pleased that members in the other place raised. A number of opposition amendments which I think would strengthen this bill, I hope they will be carried forward when we get to the Bill Committee. The first is around reducing the unnecessary police involvement. Noble Lords tabled amendments which will represent in my view are significant and much needed shift in how the tensions and removals under the Mental Health Act can be managed as the power to detain and move people to place of safety is largely restricted and falls under the responsibility of police officers.

These provisions, was designed to protect the public, can often result in the realisation of people in acute mental health crisis even when there is no threat of violence or risk to others. The amendments that were tabled in the other place would allow authorised and qualified health professionals such as medics or approved mental health professionals and specialised nurses to carry out those intentions and move individuals under the act. This would relieve police officers of the responsibilities that fall outside what is their core expertise.

Also reducing stigma and trauma associated with interventions. It would streamline the process during individuals are supported by professionals trained specifically in mental health care and maintain police involvement only where there is a clear and present risk to safety. In doing so, this would change significantly and strengthen the system, and place mental health crises more firmly in the domain of health rather than in law

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enforcement. Thank you for giving way. The

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Thank you for giving way. The current Mental Health Act, section 136 and section 135 which gives 136 and section 135 which gives power to the police to break into someone's property or detain someone's property or detain somebody from a public place, where there's the possibility of there's the possibility of deployment of weapons. Does the honourable member think that health provisions would be able to manage provisions would be able to manage those situations? Is it not the police are the best people to deal police are the best people to deal with those situations? Quite I am sorry if I wasn't clear, I thought it very clear I was talking about it very clear I was talking about situations where there was no risk to other professionals.

Gillian the situation he described the police situation he described the police are entirely the right people to be involved. The second area I want to involved. The second area I want to touch on was around strengthening safeguards for vulnerable children. safeguards for vulnerable children. What I would like to see is essentially an introduction of an essential safeguard for children and young people within that mental health care system. And as the honourable Member mentioned, it allows for a nominated person to be appointed to represent the child's interests.

In my view it does not provide adequate protection against the risk that this person could be coercive, abusive, or in other ways inappropriate. Particularly in cases involving looked after or those with complex family dynamics. So I would like to see amendments to this law that address the gap between this by establishing clear criteria. For looked after, the local authority would automatically become the nominated individual into oversight by a public body accountable for the child's welfare. The other children only individuals with legal parental responsivity such as a guardian or someone named in a court order should be appointed.

These measures ensure that no vulnerable child will be exposed to undue influence during what may be one of the most difficult and disorientating times in their life. The lines mental health law with broad and child protection standards and reinforces the principle that safeguarding must be at the heart of any mental health intervention involving children. Finally, I also wants to see amendments brought that would bring more patient voice and accountability. I accept that the bill makes steps in the right direction but I would like to see an amendment brought which mirrors that which was brought by Lord Howe and Lord Kamal in the other place.

Which will introduce a valuable and forward-looking provision, only a mandatory debrief session within 30 days of discharge under part one of the act. This will be led by an independent mental health advocate and provide patients the opportunity to reflect on their experience, raising the concerns about the treatment, and offer feedback that is safe, supportive, and nonjudgemental. This is more than just a procedural edition. It represents a shift in culture and I think we would all agree with towards accountability in the mental health system.

It recognises the importance of preparing individuals after the detention, supporting the recovery and learning from their lived experience for future services. I know mental health services and third sector organisations have endorsed this proposal. I hope the minister in his mind up will take some indication that he will be supportive of an amendment that was similar to this. Taken together, these reforms prioritise professional clinical opinion, safeguard children from inappropriate influence through periods of acute audibility, and elevate the patient voice in the post care process.

Doing so we align the Mental Health Act closer to modern standards of care, international best practice, and involving public expectations. I believe these amendments are essential to strengthen this bill, ensuring a mental health system becomes not only more effective but also more compassionate, responsive, and just.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. The Mental Health Bill is a long overdue update to the 1983 Mental overdue update to the 1983 Mental Health Act. I hope the start of a much wider overhaul of our mental health system in this country, that is often not fit for purpose and has is often not fit for purpose and has historically been treated as secondary to that which treats physical health conditions. A system

19:41

Jen Craft MP (Thurrock, Labour)

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19:56

Ian Sollom MP (St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)

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I think the point he is making about the lack of provision is so important. I wonder if he would important. I wonder if he would agree with me that the timescale, the 10 year timescale for making sure that provision is available is really critical. If the government could speed that up at all it would be extremely helpful in instances

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like this. Thank you. I absolutely would

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Thank you. I absolutely would agree, and indeed will come onto that very point. Needless to say, events took a very dark and events took a very dark and ultimately heartbreaking turn. In March 2022 a serious incident occurred where Declan became very occurred where Declan became very distressed and assaulted some staff members. The lease were called and a members. The lease were called and a members. The lease were called and a number of officers assisted staff restrain him.

As a last resort he was detained under section 166 of was detained under section 166 of the Mental Health Act and taken to the section 136 suite at the the section 136 suite at the hospital. For those who may not be aware, under the law patient to placed in a section 136 suite should placed in a section 136 suite should be therefore no Morgan 24 hours, 36 be therefore no Morgan 24 hours, 36 in extreme circumstances. Declan was there for 10 days.

10 days in an emergency suite that was entirely unsuitable for a person with his severe needs. 10 days when over 100 places were contacted. 10 days during which not one bed in suitable accommodation could be found, locally, regionally or nationally for him. Finally he simply could not cope. And he banged his head repeatedly against a wall, inflicting a catastrophic head injury on himself. He was taken to hospital and operated on, but he died some days later in April 2022 when his family made a heart- wrenching decision to turn off his life-support.

It is painfully relevant that we are developing and activating the mental health bill today as clauses 3 and four specifically address people with learning to send autism like Declan. The bill would limit detention for treatment under section 3 of the act, but I must ask the Minister would these provisions have been enough to prevent Declan's tragedy? His case highlights the critical importance of having appropriate crisis provisions and suitable community placements available, not just in theory but in reality.

The coroner's report into Declan's death and the independent care review found major failings with the system that was supposed to protect and care for him. He was acknowledged to have been in crisis for months. Ultimately, there was and there remains an enormous shortage of suitable placements for people with conditions like Declan, both in the community and the NHS. As Declan's father told me in words that I hope will be heeded, the reliance on the section 136 suite to contain autistic individuals when they are in crisis is are borrowed.

And it must be seen as a breach of the Human Rights Act. Declan's sister Caitlin has called for specific crisis provisions to be funded and created for individuals with autism. You need a designated place of safety when experiencing severe mental health crises. The provision needs to have appropriately trained and experienced staff, and in fact this provision was created in Cambridgeshire following Declan's death. Sadly, the funding was pulled and it closed. But it operated at 90% capacity when it was open, showing the very real and immediate need for this kind of provision.

Permanently and across the country. The bill before us today places new duties on Integrated Care Boards and local authorities regarding community support for people with autism and learning disabilities. But I must ask the government how it will ensure the duties outlined in this bill translate into sustained services. That prevent cases like Declan's from ever happening again. Duties without resources are merely While the bill's provisions on removing police stations and prisons as places of safety in clause 49 are welcome, Declan's case shows that welcome, Declan's case shows that even designated section 136 suites can be wholly inappropriate for individuals with complex needs.

How will the government ensure that alternatives are in place before those provisions commence? I also note the deep concern that the government anticipates full implementation of this bill could take up to 10 years. 10 years is too long for vulnerable people to continue to be at risk. In light of the coroner's findings in Declan's case, the government commit to prioritising provisions relating to autistic people and those with learning disabilities? Particularly in the development of appropriate crisis services as outlined in this bill.

On behalf of Graham, Sam, and Caitlin, and all those people like Declan, I am asking the government if it is satisfied with the provisions set out in this bill that they would prevent tragedies like this one from ever happening again? If not, I urge them to make changes in order that it does. For Declan, and for all those with autism and learning disabilities who deserve better from a mental health system, we must make sure that this bill delivers the change they need, not in 10 years but now.

Their lives

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depend on it. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It is humbling to contribute to a debate with contributions like those debate with contributions like those from my honourable friend from St

20:03

Josh MacAlister MP (Whitehaven and Workington, Labour)

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20:14

Iqbal Mohamed MP (Dewsbury and Batley, Independent)

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and long overdue reform of our mental health legislation. The Mental Health Act 1983, now 40 years old, was designed for a different era. While it has provided a legal framework for detaining and treating individuals in crisis, its no longer reflects on what an understanding of mental illness, patient rights, or best clinical practice. As we have heard. The act governs both patients and those involved with the Criminal Justice Bill includes powered such as Community Treatment Orders. But it is clear that the system it underpins is no longer fit for purpose.

The need for reform is stark and obvious. Patients detained under the act often have little say in their treatment, or who is involved in their care. We have heard racial disparities are deeply entrenched, with black Black British people five times more likely to be detained and 11 times more likely to be placed under a Community Treatment Order. The journey towards reform began with the 2018 independent review led by Sir Simon Wessely which identified rising retention rates, poor patient experience and systemic disadvantages for people with learning disabilities and autism.

A draft bill followed in 2023, and I commend the government for taking commend the government for taking Each year approximately 54,000 individuals are detained under the Mental Health Act. Alarmingly individuals are more likely to be detained under 11 times more likely to be placed under a CTO. Furthermore, nearly 1,000 young people are detained annually, yet over half report their hospital stay did not aid their recovery. These statistics are not just numbers, they are a call to action.

There are serious concerns about the treatment of people with learning disabilities and autism, while the bill rightly ends inappropriate attentions without occurring illness the delayed event attend -- delayed implementation raises fears of missed diagnoses and exclusion from after-care. We need a fully costed plan with clear targets and accountability to support this accountability to support this vulnerable group. Moving on, Mind a leading health charity has identified critical areas where the bill must go further.

One, tackling the racial disparities. The disproportionate detention of black individuals under the current act is a glaring injustice. The bill must include specific measures to reduce this disparity, such as limiting the use of Community Treatment Orders and introducing a responsible person role to oversee decisions. Additionally a statutory duty to monitor and report on progress against these inequalities is essential. I therefore support the creation of a dedicated role to monitor and act on racial disparities in detention and treatment.

Number two, the principle of least restriction is central to the bill. Yet it remains aspirational without enforceable rights. Patients should have a statutory right to assessments and treatment, the ability to appeal treatment decisions and expanded access to advocacy services. These rights are not just about legal protections, they are about respecting the dignity and autonomy of individuals facing mental health challenges. Number three, young people detained under the Mental Health Act often find themselves without adequate support or a voice in decisions about their care.

The bill must include a transparent decision-making test tailored for children and young people, ensuring their best interests are at the forefront of all treatment decisions. Including safeguards and the standardisation of advanced choice documents. The government indicates implementation timelines could be up to a decade, and I would urge the government to implement each element of the bill as soon as it is practically possible to do so. So this bill is very welcomed and is a pivotal moment in the history of mental health care in our country.

It is a huge step forward, but it can go further. To truly transform mental health care we must ensure the legislation is not only progressive in its intentions, but also robust in its protections. We have the opportunity to create a system that upholds the rights, dignity and humanity of every individual. Let is therefore not pass up this chance to make all the necessary changes, let us amend this bill to reflect the values of autonomy and respect and take this once in a generation opportunity to build a fitful purpose mental health system that is fairer, more compassionate and more effective.

I urge the government to take this opportunity to address the gaps, take heed of the recommendations and concerns, and make it right and proper. Thank you.

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I do want to continue with the tone of the debate but everyone will have a speaking limit of seven minutes, it's quite a long time.

20:20

Sojan Joseph MP (Ashford, Labour)

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minutes, it's quite a long time. It's a pleasure to be called to speak in this second reading debate. Prior to being elected to this house I was working in the NHS for the past 22 years, in mental health services. I am currently the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on mental health, this is therefore an issue that I care deeply about. It has been widely accepted that the current Mental Health Act is outdated, and the need to modernise has been talked about for some time.

I paid tribute to Baroness may when I paid tribute to Baroness may when she was Prime Minister having Sir Simon Wessely undertake a review of the act. But this Labour government, I commend them for taking this without any delay. It was mental health awareness week last week, the discussions I took part in showed how far we have come in removing much of the stigma around mental health. I fear a lot of that stigma still remains when it comes to discussing severe mental health, such as schizophrenia.

I therefore welcome the importance the government has given to this bill, and to update the existing law so it is fit for the 21st-century. I hope that with our deliberations we can play our part helping to ensure severe mental ill-health is dealt People can receive the appropriate treatment, this bill looks to modernise the legal framework and I welcome that clause 1 adopts the four principles of treatment that Sir Simon Wessely's independent review proposed. By adopting these principles the legislation will give patients greater choice, enhanced rights and support, and ensure being treated with dignity and respect is an integral part of the treatment.

This reform is long overdue. We talk a great deal about wanting to deliver personalised care in our health service, this should therefore be a guiding principle in every part of the service, especially for the most vulnerable. Adopting these principles is about redressing the balance of power away from the system to give the patient more say, and autonomy over the treatment. This will help ensure that those in our society with the most severe mental health conditions get better more personalised care.

I also welcome the statutory role that clause 24 to 28 of the bill will give a nominated person to give a greater say over the patient's treatment and care. Replacing the treatment and care. Replacing the old hierarchical list of relatives, and a list of those you have been selected by the patient. It's about updating the legislation to reflect today's world. Turning to clause 3, which deals with the application of the Mental Health Act to autistic people or those who have learning disability.

This clause would modify the definition of disorder by introducing new definitions of autism and psychiatric disorder. Those who are autistic could no longer be detained or made subject to a community treatment order unless they had a co-occurring disorder. This is a welcome and long overdue change, under the current Mental Health Act autistic people or those with a learning disability have experienced inappropriate care or medication, or extended periods of detention. As we look to modernise the act it is therefore wholly appropriate that we ensure they cannot be detained unless we also have a co-creating -- cooccurrence psychiatric disorder.

However I know concerns have been expressed that making this change may have consequences, for example it may lead to an increase in detentions, people have can add concerns that people with high risk behaviours that requires treatment in a safe hospital environment may end up having to be dealt with by the criminal justice system if they cannot be detained under the Mental Health Act. I know these concerns were debated when the bill was considered in the other place, but I would be grateful if the Minister could say whether the government has given any further consideration to these points.

I would also be grateful if he could give an assurance that he and his officials would be willing to engage with the learning disability and autism sectors as the bill continues its progress through this House. In my time remaining I will just make a couple of other points. Firstly, in the other place conservatives were successful in amending the bill to allow detention -- police powers to have a specific healthcare -- healthcare professionals. I understand it is not supported by the police either.

There is already the right care right person model introduced in 2023, that has reduced the time police have to deal with mental health patients. Can the Minister tell me if the government will look into overturning that amendment. I would also be grateful if my honourable friend could say how the government would build on what in this bill to make sure there are rider reforms and investment into mental health, in particular how we can ensure the aims of the bill are also accompanied by high- quality mental health services, especially community services for people experiencing poor mental health.

In preparation for today's debate on Thursday as chair of the APPG on mental health I was pleased to organise visit for a small group of members to the mental health centre at a hospital in Kensington. During our visit we were able to spend time in the mental health service, an excellent facility open 24 hours a day seven days a week for anyone in the area experiencing a mental health crisis. I recommend these sorts of facilities be implemented across the country.

Especially in my constituency in Ashwood, where there are no emergency mental health facilities, for the people whose primary issues were recorded as mental health presented themselves at the A&E department. These facilities would help prevent that. I would urge more support is put in place along with this legislation.

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Today I rise to welcome the direction of the Mental Health Bill, it marks a long overdue shift in how

20:27

Zöe Franklin MP (Guildford, Liberal Democrat)

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it marks a long overdue shift in how we treat some of the most vulnerable in our society. Recognising that people deserve more than crisis care, they deserve dignity, choice and autonomy. But before I continue I want to say it's been a privilege to be in the chamber for this important debate. And the very moving speech from the member for mid Cambridgeshire, and so many others across this chamber who have shared their constituents and their own personal stories. This bill rightly puts patients at the centre, giving them more say in their treatment, improving the complaints process and introducing the personalised care plans.

Replacing the nearest relative with a nominated person represents a move to a system that empowers and supports recovery. Here is the uncomfortable truth. However well- intentioned, this bill will achieve little unless we confront the funding crisis already confronting our mental health services. This bill is asking overstretched underpaid staff to deliver changes that demand time and care, when many are already at breaking point. My constituents see this every single day. Jennifer came to me in despair over the care of her daughter, Leah, who is receiving care at a local mental health unit.

Chronic understaffing and lack of support means her concerns go unanswered, underfunding has created a cycle of care, treatment reviews, early discharges to free up beds and inevitable readmissions when needs are not met. I had from Samantha whose son suffered a psychotic episode which ended in tragedy, a stark reminder of what happens when crises go unsupported. I also want to mention the story of a young woman who I won't name today, but he made a series of attempts on her life until she tragically succeeded after gaining access to a poison from overseas.

I know this is not a unique story, and multiple people have written about this issue. I wonder if the Minister would meet with me to discuss the case and whether it would be possible to use the Mental Health Bill to prevent similar deaths. Then there's the fact that across this country people are waiting months and sometimes years for mental health care. Children and young people are falling through the Cracks, patients are sent miles from home due to local bed shortages, police are left to respond to mental health emergencies because there is no one else to call.

Our system is not just stretched, it's at breaking point. Yet the proportion of NHS funding going to mental health is falling, despite soaring demand, despite mental illness making up 1/5 of the NHS burden, and despite the government's promises. These are not just gaps in the system, they are failures of political will.

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As well as funding for the NHS for direct mental health services, does my honourable friend agree with does my honourable friend agree with me that we should also invest in preventative steps to help children avoid the mental health anguish they are suffering today.

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are suffering today. Absolutely, I thank the honourable member for his intervention and I can say from my own caseload there are too many stories where actually if young people had been given preventative care and support we would not be care and support we would not be facing the tragic situations they and their families are now living and their families are now living This Government has scrapped key mental health targets including mental health targets including goals for early access and therapy checks on people with mental health, checks on people with mental health, and it signals a retreat at the very and it signals a retreat at the very moment we need to advance.

Its success depends entirely on the success depends entirely on the foundation it stands upon. Without adequate investment, even the very best intentions will struggle to take root. Ensuring people can exercise their rights and support demands more than legislation, demands real resources and constrain -- sustained commitment from the government. International plan with early intervention for children, continuity of care and a culture shift treatment to health with the same urgency and seriousness as physical health. Failure is not an option. Not for the thousands still waiting, not for the staff stretched to their limits, and not the communities left to pick up the pieces.

We can and we must do better. Thank you.

20:31

Darren Paffey MP (Southampton Itchen, Labour)

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Thank you. And in writing to support this important bill, I am incredibly humbled by some of the speeches that have gone before, particularly those from the members of Dorking and Horley and mid Cambridgeshire on the Lib Dem ventures with the experience of colleagues from Runnymede & Weybridge and of course my own colleagues here for Thurrock and Sheppey. This bill is incredibly welcoming, long overdue, and serves the urgency and seriousness that it's being given.

In my own constituency of Southampton Itchen, I've heard from families who have waited months and sometimes years for help. The waiting list for cams services in Southampton my CAMHS exceeds in many cases two years.

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I thank him for giving way. Recently I met with grandparents in my constituency of Scarborough & my constituency of Scarborough & Whitby who are caring for their grandchild, recently diagnosed with autism. He was suffering from poor mental health, unable to attend school, and the family are school, and the family are struggling to access support, so while I greatly welcome the government's work so far in this government's work so far in this area, including the pledge that there is a specialist mental health professional in every school, does professional in every school, does my honourable friend agree with me that a three year wait for an appointment with CAMHS, such as the weight my constituents are facing is

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completely unacceptable. My Lords makes an incredibly important point, and I fully agree that the weight that many people are that the weight that many people are having to face is excruciating. Those constituents that have come to Those constituents that have come to me have expressed in tears that in some cases they don't if their some cases they don't if their children were mated adult hood because those services are not there. They are subject to hugely long waits and often inadequate provision, so these changes are crucial.

Of course there are some truly commendable local initiatives in Southampton that are making a real difference on the ground. And I pay tribute to services like the Lighthouse, and invaluable out of hours mental health support centre for adults in crisis. And no limits, a brilliant charity, which is for many years has provided a wide range of health and well-being support schemes to children and young people across the city. These organisations exemplify the compassion and commitment of professionals and volunteers to those who need their services.

But let's be clear, however dedicated these services are, and the people within them, they are operating under immense pressure. Demand has outpaced capacity and that's why national action is so urgently needed to match that local effort with investment, with modernisation and with a workforce expansion required to ensure that no one is left behind. There are two essential pillars upon which real improvement in mental health provision has to be built. Firstly the legal framework which this bill rightly seeks to modernise.

And secondly the funding, as other colleagues from around the chamber said. That funding that underpins the delivery of services on the ground. So reforming the law as a vital step, but without sustained investment in frontline mental health care we risk changing the rules without changing the

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way. In my constituency of Darlington we have a statistically significant suicide rate. I know Seven men who suicide rate. I know Seven men who have taken their own life that I've mentioned several times in this place. Does he agree with me that whilst funding is important, early intervention and preventative care

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around mental health services is also really good money well spent. I thank her for that

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I thank her for that intervention. And as a former Cabinet member for children's services, I've learned through services, I've learned through experience that early intervention will always be far better value for will always be far better value for money than the obviously very necessary but often reactionary, necessary but often reactionary, reactive services. Need both. When reactive services. Need both. When it compassion up-to-date legislation and we need the resources to make it meaningful in practice. So this brings it into the modern day.

The Mental Health Act is as old as this active state. Sad to say he and the actor still younger than I am, but its provisions no longer reflect our understanding of mental health or the standards of dignity and agency that we now rightly expect. So these reforms put patient voices at the centre. I'm pleased to see for the first time patients will have greater rights to make their wishes known and to be involved in decisions about their own care, and no one can make that case more eloquently than my honourable friend for Thurrock.

The bill also rightly recognises the needs of children and young people. Too many of them are falling through the cracks. And one of the major factors affecting children and young people's mental health today is of course the pervasive presence of social media. There is growing and compelling evidence that is emerging that the addictive algorithms are leading to increasing anxiety, depression and low self-esteem. Add to that the impact of cyber bullying, social comparison and 24-hour peer pressure, then it's little surprise there is real damage to the mental well-being of our young people.

And in my own constituency, to tragic and heartbreaking deaths which were very much about the mental health and online forces that led them to that terrible terrible decision to die by suicide. So we must take action, both to prevent and to react to poor mental health. So this legislation gives young people the right to express their views in writing and requires professionals to take those views seriously. Every child deserves support, not silence, and this bill takes this in the right direction.

As I've said, the reforms outlined in this bill are important. Can I ask ministers to confirm that they will be backed up by the funding needed to deliver sustainable mental health services in England? I welcome the fact that the government has committed to an additional 680 million to mental health services this year. And I urge ministers to get that money out of Whitehall quickly and to the front line in Southampton and other places where it is desperately needed. I'm delighted that we now have a national plan to recruit 8.5 thousand new mental health staff, that includes placing specialist professionals in every school.

And when I served as Cabinet member for education in Southampton, we were proud to lead the way by introducing mental health support into our local schools with a pilot initiative that has had a clear and positive impact, and I'm delighted to see that successful approach is now being adopted on a national scale. I'm also delighted that this Labour government is developing young futures hubs across the country to provide that early support that my honourable friend has made the case for so eloquently.

Keeping young people well, and importantly out- of-hospital in the first place where possible. So that includes the scandal of learning disabled and autistic people being locked in hospitals simply because there is nowhere else for them to go. This bill will end that inappropriate attention and strengthen community- based support. In closing, when more people die by suicide, then in traffic accidents, when patients are left in police cells simply because there is nowhere safe for them to go, then radical changes the only responsible path, and we must strive to achieve that change through this Mental Health Bill.

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Thank you. Can I also say how humbling it has been to be part of humbling it has been to be part of this debate and especially the powerful contributions of honourable members with so much knowledge, and in particular the member Runnymede & in particular the member Runnymede & Weybridge and the powerful speeches for the members of Dorking and for the members of Dorking and Horley, and mid Cambridgeshire. I too welcome the Mental Health Bill too welcome the Mental Health Bill and the governance recognition that the current legislation is no longer fit for purpose.

With over 54,000 people detained under the existing act, this is an opportunity to act, this is an opportunity to modernise the system that often failed to provide care fairly and failed to provide care fairly and effectively, and we've heard brutal effectively, and we've heard brutal testimony of that today. But while I support the direction of this bill, one area that needs greater attention is the impact on young people. We are seeing a clear and worrying rise in mental health issues amongst children and teenagers, yet the bill does not fully guaranteed them the same rights, safeguards as adults.

There rights, safeguards as adults. There is still no statutory test for decision-making capacity for under 16's. Without this many young people could miss out on key rights, such as choosing a responsible nominate a person or accessing the protection around informal admission. And while the current guidelines say that children should only be placed on adult wards in exceptional cases, this is still happening far too

20:42

Shockat Adam MP (Leicester South, Independent)

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often. In 2022/23, nearly 200 children were admitted to an adult psychiatric ward. These environments psychiatric ward. These environments are not designed for them. Children are placed there, can lose access to education, peer support and age- education, peer support and age- appropriate care. This must change. It's not any adult wards that are It's not any adult wards that are out of concern for me, but the fact that many children are sent to live very far away from the homes and support structures, even to other towns so we must require statutory provision to prevent this from provision to prevent this from happening.

Turning to racial inequality, the data continues to tell a really stark story. Black tell a really stark story. Black people are nearly 4 times as likely to be detained under the Mental Health Act and seven times more likely to be placed under a likely to be placed under a community treatment order. These orders were meant to reduce hospital readmission, but often do not readmission, but often do not achieve that aim. Instead they can feel indefinite, coercive and feel indefinite, coercive and difficult to challenge.

And many people saying it erodes the trust between families and healthcare providers. That's why I support providers. That's why I support either abolishing CTO's altogether or ensuring they are subject to regular independent reviews with regular independent reviews with clear criteria, and I also support the call for a responsible person for race equity within every single trust, someone with authority and visibility to ensure training in policy and data are used effectively to address local disparities. We need national accountability too, that's why annual report by the Secretary of State for Defence broken down by protected characteristics is vital.

If we are serious about reducing inequality, we must measure and understand and act on it. Finally on autism and learning difficulties, I support the decision to remove the ability to detain people without a colour occurring mental health condition, however there are real concerns that without the proper support in the community, people may end up being misdiagnosed just to fit the criteria for detention or may be left without appropriate care. We need a clear cost plan for integrated cables and local authorities in delivering care people really need in the community.

That means targets, proper funding and safeguards to prevent delays and poor outcomes. We cannot afford a system in which a lack of planning results in another decade of delay for this vulnerable group. This bill is an important step forward, but it's not enough on its own. If you want meaningful change we need investment, accountability and a stronger focus on the rights of the people who depend on mental health services every single day. We are all responsible for ensuring that this legislation does more than

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lives. It's been an absolute privilege to listen to some of the to listen to some of the contributions in the chamber tonight from people with real expertise and from people with real expertise and experience. I -- I wholeheartedly experience. I -- I wholeheartedly welcome it. This long overdue bill will modernise the woefully out of date Mental Health Act, which we know is linked to racial inequalities, poor care for people with learning difficulties and neurodivergence, and failing to give patients a proper voice.

By monetising the Mental Health Act and making it -- modernising the Mental making it -- modernising the Mental Health Act, the government is to mistreating has the compassion and

20:45

Andrew Cooper MP (Mid Cheshire, Labour)

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mistreating has the compassion and determination to ensure patients of greater choice, autonomy, rights and support and that all patients are treated with dignity and respect throughout their treatment. There are many welcome measures in this bill from strengthening patient rights to reforming the use of involuntary detention and limiting the extent to which people with learning difficulty can be detained, but to ensure we tackle the crisis and transform the future of mental health care as a whole, we must go further and build on these reforms.

Nowhere is that need more urgent than in children's mental health services. Where alongside profound societal change, the damage to the capacity of the state, from the previous government is most painfully visible and where the cost The relationship between unhealthy online habit with adolescents and poor mental health as well document. The WHO reported last year the potentially damaging social media use has been shown to lead to depression, bullying, anxiety and poor academic performance. But these changes have occurred at the same time as huge reductions in the availability of youth services and other early intervention.

The closure of safe community spaces and access to trusted role models and the stark increases in relative child and homelessness. Earlier this month I launched a local survey in my constituency to hear directly from children and their families to better understand the state of children's mental health services in my area and some of the responses I received so far paint a bleak and harrowing picture of parents desperately trying to get their children the support they need. The initial results of the survey demonstrates a me that we must focus on two connected areas offer for which I believe must be part of our wider plans to tackle the mental health crisis.

First we must begin with early into, not as an afterthought, but as a systemwide principle. Under the previous government the mental health system has often failed to intervene in a timely and consistent and adequate manner and it's widely understood that early mental health challenges can significantly impact a child's development yet services for young children remain insufficient and poorly coordinated. The children in their early years in preschool stages support is often fragmented or entirely lacking. To address this gap we need a cohesive early intervention strategy that does more to integrate early years health and education.

Additionally we must go further by giving children access to mental health professionals in every primary and secondary school, making support not just accessible but familiar and trustworthy. Schools are often the first place where issues are identified and they must also be where the support starts, and so it's brilliant to see the announcement on Friday that this will begin to be rolled out but it does need to be accelerated in my view. Second we must overhaul how children access specialist care and tackle the systemic barriers created by high thresholds and long waits.

Early intervention only works if there is a functioning system to refer into, but right now that system is broken. Over the last 14 years services have been hollowed out my waiting lists have spiralled and thresholds for access have been pushed so high that even children in clear crisis are being turned away. I've heard countless stories of children who are self-harming, experiencing suicidal thoughts or in deep emotional distress being told they don't meet the criteria for treatment. Families are left to watch their children deteriorate, terrified and helpless and too often unheard.

That is not care, that is the cost of failure and this is no reflection on the professionals delivering the care. My survey showed good levels of satisfaction but there simply isn't enough of it to meet the current demand unless we expand the service capacity and rethink how thresholds are applied the most vulnerable children will continue to fall through the cracks, no matter how early their needs are identified. Early help must lead somewhere and that means ensuring that timely and specialist care is available for those who need it.

These two reforms are not stand- alone, they are interdependent. You alone, they are interdependent. You Without timely access to specialist care and for as long as we do not address the root causes of poor mental health, child poverty, hollowed out youth services, weak online safety, this problem will continue to get worse. This bill, along with a wider plan to tackle the mental health crisis presents the opportunity to not only fix what's broken, but to create something better. The mental health system that is accessible, equitable and fit for the future and I'm proud to support this bill tonight.

20:50

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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A real pleasure to speak in this, can I thank you for giving me the opportunity to make a contribution. I begin by saying it is essential that we get it right I think tonight, I can say this honestly, I think the Secretary of State outlined the case very well and I think policy and strategy is a legal way forward is one that I welcome here in Westminster, I also believe it's that train for the Northern Ireland, I know the Minister has direct contact every week or every month I should say with the Minister Mike Nesbitt.

A very constructive dialogue takes place between the the same page when it comes to mental health obligations. I think the Minister and the Labour government have set strategy in place which I welcome. Mental health is something which increasingly and rightly come to the forefront of our minds. We are teaching our children coping mechanisms from early school days with teachers practising breathing age exercises with children and teenagers in exams being helped to get through the these things are happening already, we've come forward in leaps and bounds.

However this is not a sprint, this is a generational marathon. We are struggling I believe to meet the mile markers. This is why welcome the whole premise and the thrust of the bill as put forward. Mental health

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