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Oral Answers to Questions
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (James Cleverly)
I regularly engage with our NATO allies. I did so most recently at the NATO Foreign Ministers meeting from 31 May to 1 June in Oslo, where the UK demonstrated our continued solidarity with Ukraine and we discussed preparations for the upcoming Vilnius summit for NATO leaders. We continue to hold NATO as the foundation stone of the Euro-Atlantic defence structure.
Kevin Foster
NATO’s unity is its strength. It brings countries together to deter aggression and defend freedom—things that would be enhanced by welcoming Sweden into the alliance. When does the Foreign Secretary expect a unanimous decision in NATO to do just that?
James Cleverly
The UK has been a strong supporter of both Finland and Sweden’s accession to NATO. I was very pleased that Finland joined us at the most recent Foreign Ministers meeting. The UK will continue to push for both Hungary and Türkiye to ratify the accession of Sweden to NATO.
Andrew Jones
I was very pleased to hear the Prime Minister confirm that Ukraine’s rightful place is within NATO. Will my right hon. Friend outline what steps he has taken to build the path towards its membership?
James Cleverly
The commitment that was made at Bucharest many years ago still stands. In the intervening years, Ukraine has demonstrated through its experience on the battlefield an increased acceptance of NATO’s standards and doctrine, which has been driven by the training that the UK and other NATO allies have provided. Inevitably, that will have shortened the time between now and the point it becomes a full member of NATO. Of course, it is impossible for us to speculate when that will be, but I hope that it will be soon.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
Our ambassadors play a skilful role in NATO and I wish to place on the record my thanks to Fleur Thomas in Luxembourg, which hosted the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, for her excellent briefing. What assessment has the Foreign Secretary made of Sweden actually joining NATO, which will strengthen its unity, before the Vilnius summit?
James Cleverly
The UK’s position has been clear on this: Sweden should join soon. Our desire, which is shared by all allies with the exception of a couple, is that Sweden should be a full member by the time of the Vilnius summit. We aspire to have a flag-raising ceremony and for Sweden to play a full part in the discussions at Vilnius. That will continue to be the aim towards which we work.
Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
When did the Foreign Secretary last engage with Hungary and Türkiye on the matter of Swedish accession, and when will he do so again? How easy is it to stress to them the importance of Sweden being in NATO? What is the blockage?
James Cleverly
My last conversation with Türkiye on this was at the NATO Foreign Ministers meeting in Oslo on 1 June. My most recent engagement with Hungary on this was at the OECD meeting in Paris at the tail end of last week.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
As the NATO Secretary-General said last month, Ukraine’s “rightful place” is in NATO. Over time, our support will help to make that possible. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that once, with our support, Ukraine has prevailed in its war against Russia’s invasion, there can be no Minsk 3.0, and that Britain should play a leading role in securing Ukraine’s path to join NATO?
James Cleverly
I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman agrees with the Government’s position on this, which is that Ukraine’s rightful place is within NATO. We have worked towards that aim. Our support—the training, equipment and advice that we have provided—will have helped to speed up the pathway from now to the point when Ukraine becomes a full member of NATO.
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP)
We would all agree that NATO is the cornerstone of defence policy, and, like many other colleagues, we support Sweden’s membership. However, the EU defence capacity is evolving at lightspeed because of events in Ukraine and events within the EU. We are seeing with the peace instrument, the strategic compass and procurement policy, that the UK really does risk being left behind in many of the discussions outwith NATO. Is it not time for a comprehensive security treaty between the UK and the EU to regulate these discussions?
James Cleverly
We enjoy a strong series of bilateral relations with EU member states and a strong relationship with the EU at the corporate level. However, I repeat that NATO is the foundation stone for the Euro-Atlantic defence structure. I have had that conversation with many Foreign Ministers from EU countries, and they agree. That is why we are committed to strengthening NATO and why at the Vilnius summit we aspire to have Sweden as a full member. However, we also need to progress the modernisation process for NATO to ensure that it continues to be fit for the future. That will be our aim. NATO is what keeps us safe in the Euro-Atlantic area.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (David Rutley)
My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary visited Brazil in May and I visited in March. We both met Brazilian authorities to discuss the risks faced by environmental activists in Brazil and how the UK can support their protection, including through the UK-Brazil partnership on green and inclusive growth, which was signed in May during the Foreign Secretary’s visit.
Mr Dhesi
Last week marked the one-year anniversary of the brutal murders in Brazil of the environmental activists and journalists Dom Phillips and Bruno Pereira. It is vital that those responsible for their murders are brought to justice, but we in the UK must play our part to protect environmental and indigenous activists from violence. What steps is the Minister taking to protect activists, especially British nationals, who are engaged in environmental activism abroad? On Brazil, what assessment has the UK Government made of President Lula’s attempts to halt deforestation of the Amazon rainforest?
David Rutley
I thank the hon. Member for his question. I offer my sincere condolences and the condolences of all on the Government Front Bench and, I am sure, of the whole House, to the families of Dom Phillips and Bruno Pereira, particularly considering the first anniversary that the hon. Member highlights. I know that the Foreign Secretary had meetings with the police and with Ministers to discuss the case, and I have had similar conversations. We want to make sure that those who committed that heinous crime are called to account and face justice. We continue to have active dialogue with the Brazilian Government to find ways that we can tackle environmental crime and deforestation.
Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab)
As we have heard, it is one year since the tragic murder of Dom Phillips and the Brazilian activist Bruno Pereira, who were murdered because of their environmental activism. I want to broaden the question slightly, because it seems to me that there is a role for those who take that kind of action to try to stop the destruction of the Amazon rainforest in particular. As long as it is peaceful and legal activism, not just in Brazil but across Latin America, what else is the Minister doing to protect British nationals and support human rights defenders across the region?
David Rutley
I recognise the hon. Member’s comments; he has taken a keen interest in the case, along with others on both sides of the House. We are working closely with the Brazilian Government on these matters. We have invested £300 million in the Amazonian biome, a huge amount of which is focused on Brazil. That will provide all kinds of support for indigenous communities and help to tackle environmental crime. We want to work within that framework to help protect environmental activists as well.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (James Cleverly)
The Government regularly assess the impact of the IRGC’s destabilising activities on the UK’s interests and on British nationals. We work closely with our partners to deter those destabilising activities, including on the interdiction of Iranian weapons in the Gulf and of weapons proliferation in Russia. The UK sanctions the IRGC in its entirety.
Bob Blackman
My right hon. Friend will be aware that the regime is boasting that its hypersonic missiles can hit Tel Aviv in 400 seconds, that the joint comprehensive plan of action restrictions end in October and that there are suggestions that British universities have been involved in research that has led to drones that are attacking Ukrainian positions from Russia. Will he therefore commit to ensuring that there is no delisting of any organisations involved in any of those activities, undertake to research the position with UK universities and proscribe the IRGC in its entirety?
James Cleverly
I am aware of the reports about research that my hon. Friend mentions and we are, of course, looking into that. We continue to stand firm on our commitment that Iran cannot become a nuclear weapons state, and we will ensure that, as the sunset clauses in the JCPOA arrive, we take evolved measures to ensure that that is the case. He will know that we keep designations consistently under review.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
The Foreign Secretary knows that there are concerns across the House of Commons about the involvement of Iranian state-based actors here in the United Kingdom and their threats towards Iranian activists here who have fled persecution in their homeland. He knows the strength of feeling about proscription as well. What assessment has the Department made of the rapprochement between Saudi Arabia and the Iranian regime, and has he spoken to anybody in Saudi Arabia about that?
James Cleverly
I have had conversations with both the Saudi ambassador to the Court of St James and the Saudi Foreign Minister on that issue. They are making attempts to permanently bring ceasefires in Yemen to a full peace settlement. If that is the case, we are very happy to support that action. We remain deeply engaged with regard to Iran’s regional behaviour. On the threats to British nationals and people based here in the UK, the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office maintains a very close and ongoing working relationship with the Home Office, as the hon. Gentleman would expect, so that we can co-ordinate both our defence and our international actions on that issue.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Anne-Marie Trevelyan)
UK policy is not to sponsor or support the issuing of any exploitation licences for deep-sea mining unless and until there is sufficient scientific evidence about the potential impact on deep-sea ecosystems, and strong, enforceable environmental regulations, standards and guidelines have been developed by the International Seabed Authority and are in place. That is both a precautionary and a conditional principle that we are following.
Kerry McCarthy
The Minister has just read out the written answer that was given fairly recently. As I understand it, that actually means that the Government have rejected calls for a precautionary pause, saying that it is better to be involved in negotiating environmental protections. I have to say that it is a brave politician—or perhaps a foolish one—who takes on Sir David Attenborough, who has said that it is
“beyond reason to consider the destruction of deep sea places”
before we understand them properly. Sir David also says that we should listen to scientists. More than 700 scientists from 44 countries have just supported a precautionary pause, so why won’t the Government?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
The hon. Lady is quite right: David Attenborough’s championing of all things in the natural world gives us as policymakers around the world, and all those in the next generation who are passionate about ensuring that Governments get this right, the enthusiasm and the energy that are required. As I have said, at the moment the policy is not to sponsor or support the issuing of any exploitation licences, precisely because we want to ensure that, using the International Seabed Authority—the organisation that brings all state parties together—we are working together to come up with a policy that will protect and assure the deep seabed.
James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
One of the seas that may become most vulnerable to deep-sea mining is the Arctic ocean, as the ice retreats and it opens up. We are extremely concerned about what the consequences may be for the environment there, and that is why the Government agreed to a moratorium on fishing in the central Arctic ocean. If they can agree to a moratorium on fishing in the central Arctic ocean, why can they not agree to a temporary “no digging” agreement in respect of deep-sea mining?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
My hon. Friend is, of course, a great champion for and expert on all things to do with the Arctic. If I may, I will ask the Minister, Lord Goldsmith, to get back to my hon. Friend with more detail on that. As I say, the UK continues to take the very firm position that we will engage through the ISA Council to ensure that we get a global position that protects the seabed.
Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con)
Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con)
Sir James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Anne-Marie Trevelyan)
Artificial intelligence can bring huge economic and social benefits for the UK and our global partners. We are working with key partners to embrace the opportunities of AI, as well as seeking global co-operation on managing the risks. AI will present significant new opportunities to revolutionise how the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office operates, and how it delivers impactful diplomatic and development outcomes across the globe.
Dr Evans
Since I delivered my speech written by AI in the House in December, we have moved on to the fourth iteration of ChatGPT, which wrote it. Advancements are happening at such pace that we need to build a regulatory framework to prevent a similar situation to the one that we find ourselves in with the internet: 20 years on, we are trying to police it. What is my right hon. Friend doing to pull the world together around a globally agreed framework on AI?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
I did not have the pleasure of hearing my hon. Friend’s ChatGPT-written speech, but I shall definitely look it up and see just how good it was. On 7 June, the Prime Minister, who was in the USA with President Biden, announced plans for the UK to launch the first global AI safety summit, so that we can do exactly what my hon. Friend says: try to tackle the challenge of agreeing safety measures, in order to evaluate and monitor the most significant risks from AI. The FCDO will engage with key international partners to deliver the Prime Minister’s ambition for the summit.
Paul Holmes
It was good to see the Prime Minister visit Washington last week to continue building our relationship with the United States, so that it is the strongest it can be. Will the Minister outline how we will work with the United States to ensure that the AI summit that was agreed to can be a success under UK leadership?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
The Prime Minister and President Biden agreed that the UK and US would take a co-ordinated approach to the opportunities and challenges of the emerging tech that we see around us, such as AI. The UK welcomes early support from the US on the global summit on AI safety, which we will lead. We will work very closely with the US, and of course other international partners, to ensure that we deliver an important step forward on this issue.
Sir James Duddridge
AI represents a massive opportunity across a number of sectors, including in the diplomatic sphere, but we must recognise that there are risks. Specifically, what is the Foreign Office doing to counter the potential efforts in this space of Russia and China, which may use artificial intelligence to undermine British interests overseas?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
Global co-operation will be vital to ensure that AI technologies and the rules governing their use are developed in the right way, and are aligned with our values of openness and freedom. The FCDO is working with departments across the UK’s national security ecosystem, including the National Cyber Security Centre, to ensure that we contribute to and benefit from advances in AI, while making sure that we increase our resilience against, and reduce the risk from, any threats that we face. We hope to have as many leading nations as possible involved in the AI summit.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
The opportunities of AI are global, but so are the threats. It is obvious that significant co-ordination and co-operation in scientific research will be essential. In that context, could the Minister explain how cutting ourselves off from the world’s biggest scientific research programme helps the United Kingdom?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
The hon. Gentleman is right: we absolutely all see the huge potential of AI, but we must not be complacent about the risks. That is why the UK, in leading the AI summit and bringing together all parties from around the world, will ensure that we establish world-leading governance and regulation, so that we can take the opportunities while ensuring public safety and trust.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Never! Humour aside, may I thank the Minister very much for her response? It has been quite positive. Given that artificial intelligence will have a significant impact on international relations, will she provide reassurance that all AI advances must and will be scrutinised to a greater extent, for the safety of the people in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
Mr Speaker, I assume that your reference was to the hon. Member’s great intelligence, because that is what artificial intelligence is demonstrating it can be. It is always a joy to support what he says and answer his questions, and he is exactly right: by working through those international relationships, with the UK driving things and holding that really important leadership role, we want to be able to bring countries together through bilateral engagement, using the many multinational fora out there to really ensure that we are tackling and understanding those threats. We need to provide an environment in which, as AI develops, we can maintain oversight while ensuring that we take advantage of opportunities that will bring economic prosperity. I look at the work that we are doing across the world, and I see how it can assist developing countries to safely leapfrog ahead with technologies in so many ways.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
We have all seen how hybrid warfare has been used against this country and our allies in recent years, and of course AI systems could pose new cyber and information threats as well as providing economic and social opportunities. We have already called on the Government to close gaps in the AI White Paper by introducing proper oversight of models such as GPT-4, and I have raised with Ministers the specific issue of whether access is allowed in the FCDO. I was told that access was not permitted on FCDO corporate systems, but that further guidance was being developed. Has that guidance now been issued, and are FCDO staff currently able to access AI systems on personal devices, for example? What safety protocols are in place?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
If I may, I will write to the hon. Gentleman, because I do not have the latest information on that issue.
Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)
As we have heard, artificial intelligence presents opportunities but also threats, many of which are impossible to quantify at this time. That is as true in AI diplomacy as in anything else, so at the world’s first major AI conference, will the UK Government commit to developing and facilitating AI only with countries that respect human rights and will obey the rules of international law?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
As we bring the world together at the AI summit in the autumn, we want to have discussions with all our international partners about what the rules of the road need to be. The UK Government are absolutely going to be leading on making sure that the facilitation of AI in every sphere of our lives takes place within a framework that provides safety and gives trust to both our citizens and the rest of the world.
Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Mr Andrew Mitchell)
On 24 May, the United Kingdom co-hosted an international pledging conference for the horn of Africa that helped mobilise nearly £2 billion to help nearly 32 million people across the region.
Fleur Anderson
The east African wet rains and the pledging conference have both come, but the food crisis is worsening. Just three weeks ago, the Government announced a further cut in aid to the region. Local organisations need more funding than most, so will the Minister set targets to increase funding to local organisations for adapting to climate change in the region and to diversify livelihoods to support vulnerable communities?
Mr Mitchell
The hon. Lady is right about the importance of localism and localisation. I should make it clear to her that Britain’s pledge was £143 million—that will have an enormous effect. She should also bear in mind that we have a degree of flex when it comes to humanitarian budgets, and we have announced for next year that Britain—the British taxpayer—will be spending £1,000 million on humanitarian relief.
Dr Whitford
When the UK co-chaired the UN pledging conference, the Minister described the situation as
“one of the most devastating humanitarian crises in the world”,
yet he has cut funding compared with previous years and pledged less than 20% of the contribution that was given by the UK during the 2017 droughts. With over 70 million people now classed as at threat of starvation, is he not rather ashamed of the UK’s meagre response?
Mr Mitchell
If I may say so, the hon. Lady’s response to what I said is not fully comprehensive. We have allocated something like £400 million to east and central Africa, and although it is true that the bilateral spend is slightly below last year’s level, as I said, we do have some flexibility. It is the starting point for our spending this year, and of course, we will keep all these matters very much in our minds.
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
Climate change and conflict are causing untold misery across the horn of Africa and forcing millions of people to leave their homes. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we should be spending more of our overseas aid on stabilising lives in such places as east Africa and less on expensive asylum hotels here in the UK?
Mr Mitchell
My right hon. Friend is right, and she can rest assured that those points are made in discussions within Government. The point I would make is that as a result, the Treasury agreed to provide an extra £2,500 million of support to compensate for that spending. I think that was the right decision, and I strongly support it.
Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)
In February, I visited Kenya with World Vision UK and saw first-hand the impact of climate change on drought and hunger. While the £143 million aid package, which the Minister mentioned and which was announced at the UN pledging conference in May, is welcome, what more can the UK Government do to support this crisis-stricken part of the world at this important time?
Mr Mitchell
My hon. Friend is absolutely right in what she says. That is why we have announced that we intend to publish a White Paper setting a road map towards achieving the sustainable development goals by 2030 and making greater progress on tackling those climate change problems. We hope to engage the interest, involvement and support of colleagues on both sides of the House in that White Paper endeavour.
Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)
More than 29 million people across Ethiopia, Kenya, Somalia and South Sudan are now experiencing catastrophic hunger levels following a fifth failed rainy season in a row. It is also the fourth year in a row that this Government have cut aid to those countries. Oxfam has estimated that one person is likely to die of hunger every 28 seconds between now and July. Can the Minister please explain how he is restoring Britain’s leadership in international development while decimating our support to some of the very poorest people on earth?
Mr Mitchell
First, let me say that British leadership has been exercised at the two big conferences that took place in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. British expertise and technical know-how is ensuring greater resilience and adaptation spend to drive up the ability to survive these crises when they take place next. If I may say so, the hon. Member must not diminish the extraordinary support and leadership that Britain is giving across the horn of Africa. The figures we have announced are preliminary figures, as I have said. We will react to the crisis—that is one of the things we are able to do—and those figures take no account of the tremendous support that British taxpayers are giving through the multilateral system.
Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Mr Andrew Mitchell)
The Government recognise the challenging debt situation facing many African countries. The UK is working with international partners to address rising debt vulnerabilities.
Jeff Smith
Every dollar spent by low-income countries on servicing unsustainable debt is a dollar not spent on providing basic services and tackling climate change. I know that the Minister wants to make a difference on this, but the status quo clearly is not working. Given that 90% of developing country debt contracts are governed by English law, why will the Government not agree even to consult on legislative opportunities to compel private creditors to take part in debt restructuring, to make them part of the solution, not the problem?
Mr Mitchell
As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are looking at that specific issue. We think there is a case for majority voting when it comes to debt settlements, and we are exploring all that. He is right to emphasise that 15% of low-income countries are already in distress and 45% are at high risk of entering debt distress. Next week, at the Macron summit in Paris, Britain will be driving forward the climate-resilient debt clauses, which our export credit agency, UK Export Finance, was the first to start to put into grants. That will make an enormous difference, and we are pressing for all creditors to offer such clauses in their loans.
Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (David Rutley)
We share Colombia’s delight for the rescue of the four children in the Amazon. We commend the efforts of all those who took part in the inspiring search and rescue.
During his visit to Colombia last month, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary met President Petro and Foreign Minister Leyva and discussed our ongoing support for the implementation of the 2016 peace agreement in Colombia. Through our conflict, stability and security fund, which has now committed £80 million since 2015, we will continue to support the implementation of the peace agreement and improved stability and security in Colombia.
Kate Osborne
Colombia’s Attorney General Barbosa was appointed under the previous Government, who oversaw numerous human rights scandals, including the killing of protesters by police. Barbosa is now harming President Petro’s “total peace” policy by blocking the lifting of arrest warrants that would enable some leaders to come to the negotiating table. As UN Security Council penholder for the Colombian peace agreement, what technical and financial assistance can the Government provide to ensure that all of Colombia’s institutions are supporting peace?
David Rutley
As I have said, we are working very closely together at the highest level. The Foreign Secretary has met President Petro and the Foreign Minister to push the cause for peace, and I was fortunate to attend the UN Security Council in January. We want to continue to tackle the challenges in Colombia, working with our Colombian counterparts, and we have put serious investment into that cause to back up our penholder relationship.
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Anne-Marie Trevelyan)
We remain committed to doing what we can to assist Mr Johal. We have raised concerns about his case with the Government of India on over 100 occasions, including his allegations of torture and his right to a fair trial. The case was raised most recently by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, who is the FCDO’s Minister of State for south Asia, with Indian External Affairs Minister Jaishankar on 29 May.
Kirsten Oswald
Last week, Scotland’s First Minister, Humza Yousaf, met Jagtar’s brother Gurpreet and pledged to do everything he can to bring Jaggi home. The First Minister is raising his concerns with the UK and Indian Governments, and the Scottish Government stand ready and eager to work with the FCDO to bring about Jagtar’s safe release. What engagement has the FCDO had with the Scottish Government on this, and will the Minister pledge to work with Scottish Government colleagues to bring Jagtar home to Scotland safely and soon?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
I thank the hon. Lady for demonstrating the Scottish National party’s support for the work the UK Government continue to do in our discussions with the family and when raising this with the Government of India, and we encourage the SNP to continue to have those conversations with us and to support the work we are doing.
Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con)
Mr Johal is not the only person detained in India who needs the Government’s attention at the moment. Since 2017, a group of human rights defenders known as the BK 16 have been imprisoned. Their only crime has seemingly been to defend the rights and values of some of the poorest and most marginalised people in the country. Father Stan Swamy, aged 84, died in custody with Parkinson’s only a couple of years ago. May I ask what representations the Foreign Office is making on their behalf?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
As I say, we engage broadly with India on the whole range of human rights matters both to help build capacity and to share expertise in these areas, and where we have concerns, we always raise them directly with the Government of India. Lord Ahmad last raised these human rights issues with the Indian Minister for External Affairs in New Delhi at the end of May.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind)
The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (James Cleverly)
The UK and Mauritius have held four rounds of constructive negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory and the Chagos archipelago. Negotiations are ongoing, so we cannot speculate on the possible outcomes or pre-empt their conclusions.
Jeremy Corbyn
I thank the Foreign Secretary for his answer. I would be grateful if he could assure the House that these negotiations are going on in the spirit of the International Court of Justice advisory opinion and the decision of the UN General Assembly in 2019 on the reunification of the Chagos islands with Mauritius. Can he give us some idea of when he expects these negotiations to come to fruition?
James Cleverly
I am not able to give a date or a projected date of when we will conclude these negotiations. We want to ensure that we conclude them successfully. Our shared objective is to ensure the continued effective operation of the joint UK-US defence facility on Diego Garcia, protecting the vital role it plays in both regional and global security.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
There is absolutely a moral duty for us to allow resettlement of the Chagos island people on the British Indian Ocean Territory, but in those negotiations what discussions have been had with Mauritius with regard to who will be able to resettle the Chagos archipelago? Will it be only Chagos islanders, Mauritians, or even Chinese?
James Cleverly
While the negotiations are between the UK and Mauritius, we are very conscious of the Chagossian communities and will keep them in the forefront of our minds throughout this negotiating process. Our primary objective is to ensure the continued effective operation of our defence facility on Diego Garcia.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (David Rutley)
The US and UK Governments do more together than any other two Governments in the world. We have a trading relationship worth £280 billion, and last week the Prime Minister was in Washington when he and President Biden signed the Atlantic declaration, a first-of-its-kind economic partnership.
Bill Esterson
The Inflation Reduction Act is attracting investment from the UK to the US, as industry groups across our economy are saying. Does the Minister agree that the refusal to publish an industrial strategy shows there will be no made in Britain plan in response to President Biden’s made in America agenda while this Conservative Government remain in office?
David Rutley
Well, that is an interesting question, to which I say that we have a very clear economic strategy, and the Atlantic declaration is a very important element in strengthening our partnership with the US. The beginning of the negotiations on critical minerals will make sure UK companies are eligible for tax credits under the US Inflation Reduction Act; this is a hugely important and positive step forward.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
Our allies in the United States, the European Union, Australia and Germany have all entered the global race to reach net zero and create the jobs of the future with massive public investment, but the Government’s Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero described the United States Inflation Reduction Act as “dangerous” and the Chancellor described it as “distortive” and “not the British way.” Does the Foreign Secretary agree with his colleagues in Cabinet or our allies in the United States? It will be interesting to see whether the Foreign Secretary answers.
David Rutley
We are working incredibly closely with the United States. They are taking their steps forward; we do not want to get involved with the subsidy race, because the UK had a head start of over a decade on green investment. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, as we have been at similar meetings, we are working incredibly closely with the United States and it is a very strong relationship. In my recent visit to the US we highlighted that there is $1 trillion invested in each of our economies; we are going to move forward from that very strong space.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (James Cleverly)
I had the pleasure of meeting the Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba in Kyiv last week. I reassured him that the UK support for Ukraine and its territorial integrity is unwavering. The Ukrainian Government and people can count on our continued support both in their work on the battlefield and diplomatically, and, through the Ukraine recovery conference, our support in the rebuilding of their country once this war is over.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald
The Secretary of State will know from his many visits and discussions that Iranian drones continue to terrorise the Ukrainian people, not least in the capital city of Kyiv, so it was worrying last week to learn from the US National Security Council that Iran is helping Russia build a drone facility just outside Moscow that could be operational as early as next year. How is the Secretary of State working here in London but also with partners to suffocate that capability as quickly as possible?
James Cleverly
The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. When we first received credible reports of Iranian support to Russia in its drone attacks on Ukraine we investigated them and subsequently sanctioned entities and individuals involved in that. We are aware of the report he mentioned, and that will of course form part of our thinking on what other action we should take. It is important to remember that the action we have taken thus far is not the limit of our work, and we will continue to choke off the financial supply both to Russia itself and those seeking to arm it in that brutal war against the Ukrainian people.
Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Anne-Marie Trevelyan)
Sanctions have isolated Russia and Belarus from western financial markets and services, undermining their long-term growth, starving Russia’s military of key western components and technology and restricting Russia’s ability to fight a modern war. The Government remain committed to increasing pressure on Russia and Belarus and have recently introduced further sanctions targeting Putin and Lukashenko’s regimes.
Mark Eastwood
Dewsbury-based Alunet, a supplier of aluminium doors and windows, is being crippled due to unfair competition and sanction circumvention by its Belarus-based former supplier. To help save a £20 million business in my constituency, may I request that my right hon. Friend urgently looks to impose increased tariffs on aluminium products from both Russia and Belarus?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
The import of aluminium originating from Belarus and Russia attracts an additional duty already of 35 percentage points, which we brought in last year. The import of iron and steel products and of some articles of aluminium from Russia is prohibited. The import of iron and steel products from Belarus is also prohibited. Of course, we keep our sanctions under review, as the Foreign Secretary has said. Indeed, following feedback from my hon. Friend and others, on 20 April, we expanded the list of products covered by the import prohibitions on Russian iron and steel. I am happy to discuss with my hon. Friend and his business what more we can think about doing, working with our colleagues at the Department for Business and Trade.
Sir Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Last year, the Russian Government introduced a new law that requires all businesses, including foreign businesses that have any footprint in the Russian Federation, to assist in the war in Ukraine. That means that any British businesses that are still doing business in Russia are complicit in the war crimes that Russia is perpetrating against the Ukrainian people. Will the Minister make it absolutely clear that all British businesses should completely and utterly desist from business in Russia immediately?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
One of the extraordinary things we saw only last year when the war broke out was the positive attitude of British businesses and their willingness to take financial pain immediately. They pulled themselves away, not only where we imposed sanctions and prohibitions but beyond that, from Russian markets and activity. We continue to work with businesses, but I take the hon. Gentleman’s point and we will continue enforcement using the tools that we have. We work closely with our business sector, as does the Department for Business and Trade on trading questions, to ensure that that is understood. However, I have always found British businesses to be incredibly positive in stepping beyond what is asked of them in support of Ukraine.
Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (James Cleverly)
Since the last oral questions, we have concluded our successful evacuation operation in Sudan and of course continued to support Ukraine in its fight for freedom. Ministers from the Department have travelled extensively around the world, including my right hon. Friend the Development Minister, who overnight returned from the G20 in India. I visited Latin America and the Caribbean. I have recently returned from meetings at NATO and visited British servicemen and women stationed in Estonia. I have also recently chaired the Foreign Ministers’ meeting of the OECD—the first time that the UK has done that in decades.
Mark Eastwood
Could my right hon. Friend please provide an update on the current political situation in Pakistan?
James Cleverly
Pakistan remains a close and important partner. We have a strong bilateral relationship. When we see political instability and sporadic escalations of violence, it is concerning. We continue to work both directly at political level and through our high commission in the country to seek to de-escalate the tension to ensure that future elections are not marred by the violence that, unfortunately, we have seen recently.
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
On several occasions, Labour colleagues and I have raised our concerns about the safety of Hongkongers here in the UK. There is still a significant fear felt by the Hong Kong community and a sense that the Chinese Government can act with relative impunity here in the UK. Will the Foreign Secretary commit to the House today to work with colleagues across Government to look at this urgently, as he promised me last year?
James Cleverly
My right hon. Friend the Minister for Security conducted a review of the so-called Chinese police stations in the UK. My Department has engaged with the Chinese Government to ensure that those so-called police stations no longer operate. We released a statement on that last week. The security and safety of people here in the UK remains a Government top priority. We will continue to ensure freedom of speech across this country and the protection of individuals.
Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con)
James Cleverly
We continue to work to prevent Afghanistan becoming a future source of terrorist threats here in the UK. We work with our international partners to limit the flow of illegal drugs and illegal migration. We continue to provide lifesaving humanitarian assistance and to work to ensure that our target—that 50% of the beneficiaries are women and girls—is reached. We are on track to reach that, despite the attempt by the Taliban to prevent women and girls from receiving the international support they deserve.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Leo Docherty)
I think this is an issue for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but I will look at the issue and write to the hon. Gentleman.
Sir Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)
Mr Speaker
Order. I have to say this is topical questions and I have to get everybody else in. It is a very important question and I am sure the Minister has got it.
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Mr Andrew Mitchell)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I add my congratulations to my right hon. Friend on his honour? The UK is appalled by Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Act, in particular the introduction of the death penalty for so-called aggressive homosexuality. We have expressed our strong opposition to the legislation, at all levels, with the Government of Uganda. The criminalisation of LGBT+ persons threatens minority rights, and risks persecution and discrimination of all people across Uganda.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
James Cleverly
I have not had a chance to see the detail of the report the hon. Member refers to. I will ensure that my Department looks at that. Whether it is the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office or the Home Office, we will investigate that.
Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con)
I welcome that the UK has been a long-standing champion of the sustainable development goals, so may I ask my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to commit to publishing another voluntary national review of our progress towards the SDGs, and will he attend the UN high level political forum on SDGs next month?
Mr Mitchell
On my hon. Friend’s last point, I think at least two Ministers will be at that forum to represent our country. She asked about the domestic analysis of the SDGs. There was a voluntary national review in 2019, conducted by our former colleague Rory Stewart. He said that it was a work in progress and we are doing quite well. On the wider SDG point, I hope that the whole House will engage with the White Paper, which can help to inject British leadership to drive it forward.
Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)
James Cleverly
As I said in response to a similar question, we work closely with the Home Office. The Security Minister has conducted a review on this issue, and I have made it very clear to the Chinese Government that any such activities are completely unacceptable in the UK. They have committed that they will not continue.
Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)
In its 2030 road map for Israel-UK bilateral relations, the Government committed to working closely with Israel on the threat from Iran. I urge the Secretary of State to do that. Will that include proscription of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps?
James Cleverly
I have spoken regularly about the process by which proscriptions are made. We do not routinely speculate on future proscriptions. Our relationship with Israel is key. I met the Israeli Foreign Minister and signed a UK-Israeli bilateral road map on 21 March. We continue to hold their safety and security as a priority in our bilateral relationship.
Mr Speaker
I am disappointed. I am sure that next time, the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) will put on a tie.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
James Cleverly
The UK’s position on settlements is of long standing. We continue to call on the Israeli Government and the Palestinian Authority to work towards a sustainable two-state solution. We will always endeavour to make that a reality. That remains the foundation stone of the UK’s foreign policy in the region.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
It is now six months since the illegal blockade of the Lachin corridor—the vital lifeline between Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia. Since then, the Azerbaijan President has made increasingly bellicose threats towards Armenian people. Can the Under-Secretary of State, who recently returned from Armenia, update us on what we are doing to bring pressure to end that humanitarian disaster?
Leo Docherty
We support the Euro-Atlantic efforts to bring the two sides together. We have urged our interlocutors in both Armenia and Azerbaijan to get back around the table. I look forward to updating my hon. Friend in person.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
James Cleverly
Our bilateral relationship with Türkiye is important. It is a NATO ally and is heavily involved in the facilitation of the Black sea grain initiative, which is helping to feed starving people around the world. I note the hon. Gentleman’s points about the election, which we will look into, but ultimately it is in our bilateral and indeed regional interests to maintain a strong working relationship with Türkiye, and that will continue to be the case.
Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)
Education can make a real difference to the empowerment of women and girls, and a positive difference to communities—something highlighted in a recent impact report from Five Talents, which focuses on setting up savings groups to help communities. Does my right hon. Friend agree that those types of groups can play a vital role in strengthening the resilience of communities in a sustainable way?
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)
Mr Mitchell
The hon. Lady raises an extremely important matter. She may rest assured that the Government are fully engaged, through multilateral channels, in driving that forward.
Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
In early June, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps unveiled Iran’s first hypersonic Mach-15 missile, which was widely celebrated in Tehran. What has my right hon. Friend done to challenge the dangerous and continued militarisation in Iran?
James Cleverly
We continue to work closely with our international colleagues, particularly the members of the E3, the United States of America and our partners in the region, to dissuade Iran from its increasingly militaristic presence. We continue to maintain our policy that it should never be a nuclear-weapons state, and we also keep a close eye on other weapons technology development.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
The Windsor framework is a welcome settlement but may I seek an assurance from the Government that they will work closely with the Northern Ireland business community over the detailed operational guidance, such as with the red and green lanes?
Leo Docherty
I am pleased to report that we have issued guidance. We will continue to work with businesses as the green lane rolls out between September this year and September next.
Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)
I am proud to represent many Pakistani-British dual nationals in Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke, who are rightly concerned about the human rights violations that are taking place, as well as the threats they fear they will face if they return to see family members in Pakistan. What is the Foreign Office doing to ensure those dual nationals will be protected and prevented from ever being detained?
James Cleverly
As I say, we have a strong bilateral relationship with Pakistan. We have access at the most senior levels within Government, and we make it absolutely clear that those British nationals are always at the forefront of our minds. Their protection and security is always a priority for the UK Government. That is universally the case, but that is also something that we make clear to our Pakistani friends.
Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
We are all concerned about Russian attempts to destabilise the western Balkans, but does the Secretary of State agree that what is required now is maximum co-ordination and co-operation between ourselves, the United States and the European Union?
Leo Docherty
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We are urging Kosovo and Serbia to de-escalate and return to dialogue, and I am sure the Foreign Secretary will make that point when he sees the Serbian Prime Minister later today.
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
The blowing of the Nova Kakhovka dam is the biggest act of ecocide in generations. For the record, will my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary confirm again that the UK will leave no stone unturned in holding the Russian regime to account for the damage that has been caused by their war?
James Cleverly
My right hon. Friend is right about the huge environmental damage that has been caused by the breaking of the dam. Although I am sure Members are already conscious of this, it is worth reminding the House that incidents such as this and the damage to other civilian infrastructure across Ukraine is happening only because of Russia’s war and its illegitimate invasion of Ukraine. The best thing that Russia can do to protect the environment and civilian infrastructure, and to end the loss of life, is to withdraw its troops immediately.
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
The UN high seas treaty is a landmark for conservation. Will the Foreign Secretary assure the House that the Government will look to adopt and ratify it as quickly as possible?
Mr Mitchell
Unless I am advised otherwise, the answer is an emphatic yes.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
What assessment and representations have the Government made on the decision by the Arab League to readmit the Assad regime of Syria back into the organisation?
James Cleverly
I had conversations with my interlocutors, the members of the Arab League, prior to that decision. I expressed the UK’s concerns about the speed with which that happened. We continue to liaise closely with them on the issue. The UK’s position on Syria has not changed.
Dame Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Consistency in applying sanctions across Government is crucial to maximise the impact on Russia, and the Secretary of State’s leadership in this respect is vital. Is he aware that the Home Office is considering requisitioning a hotel whose multiple shareholders include those who have invested from an address in Russia? Will he raise this matter with Home Office Ministers, to ensure taxpayers’ money will not be used to pay dividends to Russia?
James Cleverly
That question would probably be aimed more accurately at the Home Office, but I will of course raise it with colleagues across Government.
Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
Last week’s revelation from Canada’s national security adviser that the republic of India was among the most active sources of foreign interference in that country—along with China, Russia and Iran—is deeply concerning. Does the Minister know whether the Department has taken soundings from our treaty ally and fellow Five Eyes member regarding India’s activities abroad, particularly its surveillance of not only Sikh activists but Members of this House in relation to the ongoing detention of my constituent Jagtar Singh Johal?
James Cleverly
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have met his constituent’s family, and we continue to raise this case with the Indian authorities. I regularly meet my Canadian counterpart, who has not raised directly with me the specific concerns raised by the hon. Gentleman.
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
Last year seven-year-old Ibrahim was abducted by his estranged father from a school in my constituency. His mother is naturally distraught. Will the Foreign Secretary, or another Minister, meet me to discuss this matter and help to move things forward? Ibrahim was taken to Saudi Arabia.
James Cleverly
I will ensure that the hon. Gentleman has access to either a Minister or the most appropriate officials in the consular department.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
It is nearly seven years since the people of Glasgow North voted by 78% to remain in the European Union. Can the Foreign Secretary give just one example from that whole period of our United Kingdom’s diplomatic or international reputation being enhanced as a result of Brexit?
James Cleverly
I am sure you will tell me off, Mr Speaker, because I have more than one such example and I know that time is short, but I will keep talking until you do tell me off. Our ability to move quickly in respect of vaccines—[Interruption.] SNP Members may not like it, but nevertheless our ability to move quickly at that time meant that we were one of the first countries in the world to come out of lockdown. Our ability—
Ian Paisley
Yes, Mr Speaker. You will know that the issue of the Windsor framework falls within the remit of the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. It is a joke to be told by an FCDO Minister that he will take this matter up with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, because DEFRA has no role in negotiating veterinary medicines. How can I obtain an answer to the question that I posed today, Mr Speaker?
James Cleverly
As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, we will inevitably liaise closely with those in DEFRA on the practicalities of this, because they are the experts on the subject matter. However, ownership of the policy does lie with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. We will continue to negotiate with the European Union on all files where there are still outstanding issues, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that this will be one of the matters I will raise during my imminent conversations with Maroš Šefčovič.
Mortgage Market
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of developments in the mortgage market in recent days.
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrew Griffith)
The Government recognise the anxiety that people feel about mortgages, and are using the tools at their disposal to limit the rise in rates. We are not an outlier in this regard: as Opposition Members will know, central banks around the world are raising interest rates to combat high inflation driven by the pandemic and Putin's war.
Given that inflation is the No. 1 enemy, we are focused on delivering the Prime Minister’s pledge to halve it this year. Nevertheless, I know that mortgage rates and the availability of mortgages are a concern right now. Mortgage arrears and repossessions remain below pre-pandemic levels, but if a borrower falls into financial difficulty, guidance from the Financial Conduct Authority requires firms to offer tailored support and to deal with customers fairly. The Government also offer loans to help eligible homeowners to cover the interest on their mortgages through the support for mortgage interest scheme from the Department for Work and Pensions, and make it clear that repossession must be a last resort for lenders through the pre-action protocol.
As long as economic challenges exist, we will continue to stand by families. To date, Government support to help households with rising bills in 2022-23 and 2023-24 totals £94 billion. That is equivalent to an average of £3,300 per household, as well as a record 9.7% increase in the national living wage, which I am sure that the Opposition support. While we are taking action to halve inflation and help families, the Opposition would make it all worse. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has been clear that Labour’s £28 billion a year borrowing plan would risk even higher interest rates and higher inflation, and even the shadow Chancellor has admitted that its position is reckless. This is a Government on the side of the British people and that is why, as we shelter people from rising prices, our task remains getting inflation down and getting the economy growing and debt falling.
Mr McFadden
The UK’s homeowners are under increasing financial stress, with two-year fixed rates at 5.86%—up by over 0.5% in just a month—products being withdrawn, and the Resolution Foundation saying that the average mortgage holder is facing an increase in payments of £2,300 this year. This is not just about homeowners; it is about renters too, because the landlords they rent from are also facing increased borrowing costs and that in turn is forcing up rents.
All this pressure was multiplied by the irresponsible decision of the Conservative Government last year to use the country for a giant economic experiment that put booster rockets under mortgage rates. While they enacted their teenage right-wing pamphlet fantasies, using the country like lab rats, homeowners and renters were left to pay the price. Since then, because inflation in the UK has been higher for longer than in many similar economies, the expectation is that interest rates will be higher for longer too, and that is what is driving up mortgage rates and piling on the pressure.
While the Ministers responsible rack up speaking fees around the world, the British public are still paying the price for the economic irresponsibility and recklessness of the Conservative party. Will the Economic Secretary now apologise for the Conservative mini-Budget last September and the lasting effect it has had on homeowners and renters around the country? Will the Government take responsibility for the decisions that they made and the consequences that followed, or is it, as they always claim, someone else’s fault? Now, instead of trying to help hard-pressed homeowners, the Conservatives are fighting like rats in a sack over an honours list and a disgraced Prime Minister. It is clear that they cannot focus on the problems of the country; the only way to do that is to change the Government and let them fight it out in opposition.
Andrew Griffith
We enjoy, as ever, the hon. Member’s rhetoric, but he did not address what his plan would be. He also did not acknowledge that this has an international factor. Perhaps he or one of his colleagues would like to explain why we have seen similar interest rate increases in the USA, where the 30-year rate—the market is somewhat different there—has increased from 4% at the start of 2022 to more than 6% today.
Mr Speaker
In fairness, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) is right honourable. But there we are. I call the Chair of the Select Committee.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
The Government have given the Bank of England the task of targeting inflation at 2%, and our Committee has regularly held the Bank of England Governor’s feet to the fire over its performance on that inflation target. Mortgage rates have been increasing because inflation has been higher for longer than expected. In fact, the Governor said in his evidence to our Committee last November that from now on, our grumpy constituents who are having to pay higher mortgage rates should complain to him rather than to the Government. Will the Economic Secretary endorse the Treasury Committee’s campaign to ask the banks why, instead of just raising mortgage rates on the day the Bank of England raises rates, they do not also increase the savings rates that are paid to our constituents?
Andrew Griffith
The independent Governor of the Bank of England is, of course, right. Today we have seen strong print on wage growth, in part due to the 9.7% increase in the national living wage, on which I hope Members will join me in congratulating the Government. My hon. Friend is, as ever, right to highlight the impact on savers. It is important to me and to this Government that savers get a fair deal, which is one of the reasons why National Savings and Investments continues to offer savers an attractive range of products in the market.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
Millions of households are now struggling as their fixed-rate mortgages end and they are moved to much higher variable rates. We also know that only a third of the households that are expected to move from cheap fixed-rate deals have done so, so there is a great deal of pain to go, with 116,000 households a month coming off fixed-rate deals.
Some in the City are suggesting that what we are seeing is a complete reset of the mortgage market, which would imply that there should be a complete reset of the Government’s approach. Given that changes to mortgage rates are driven by changes to the base rate, and that the base rate is the central bank’s primary tool to meet the 2% inflation target handed to it by the Government, what discussions have the Government had with the Governor of the central bank about the effectiveness, or the appropriateness, of an inflation target being the primary target that the central bank works towards?
Andrew Griffith
At his spring statement, the Chancellor was very clear about the Bank of England’s continued remit, beyond which it remains operationally independent. It has been a long-standing feature of this House that Treasury Ministers do not tell the Bank of England how to run monetary policy. Three of the Prime Minister’s five priorities are getting the economy growing, reducing debt and halving inflation.
Sir Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Con)
That is very kind, Mr Speaker.
I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) for the previous question, which was extremely interesting and perceptive. Of course, it should escape nobody’s attention that, today, gilt yields are higher than they were when my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) was forced from office in the autumn. I agree entirely with the Minister that it is important to avoid the inflaming of inflation that the Opposition would do, but does he also agree that ultra-low interest rates cannot be seen as the sole benchmark of economic success and that we ought to aspire to higher trend growth as much as low interest rates?
Andrew Griffith
I add my congratulations to my right hon. Friend, who is right that a stable fiscal environment and the lowest possible interest rates are two ingredients and prerequisites for success, but so, too, is a supply-side economy that works to support growth and having the most competitive fiscal environment, which is one reason why the Chancellor has asked the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to look at public sector productivity, with a view to achieving that.
Dame Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
To hear the Minister talk about a stable economic environment after the disaster of the mini-Budget and the catastrophe it caused in the bond markets takes some cheek. I commend his cheek, because it is unbelievably cheeky.
Does the Minister acknowledge that households have shelled out over £1 billion in extra mortgage payments since the Government’s disastrous mini-Budget? Does he also realise it is estimated that, in the next two years, £9 billion will have to be shelled out by those with mortgages because of his party’s economic mismanagement? Is he proud of that record?
Andrew Griffith
It may cause the hon. Lady some distress, but I am enormously proud of the £94 billion the Government have provided to support households in these difficult times. I am proud, too, of the Government’s response to the covid pandemic and to Ukraine—would it ill behove any Opposition seeking office to mention those things a little more when talking about the economy? Above all else, I am enormously proud that when any Conservative Government leave office they do not leave notes behind saying, “Dear Chief Secretary, I am afraid to tell you that there is no money left.”
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
Inevitably, the level of Government borrowing itself is a determinant of interest rates, isn’t it?
Andrew Griffith
My right hon. Friend—I congratulate him as well—is right to say that one factor is the level of Government borrowing. This Government have had to borrow unprecedented amounts due to the covid pandemic and the war in Ukraine, and to provide households with that support of about £3,300 over this year and last. That is one reason why one of our key priorities is to reduce the level of debt.
Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)
The Minister likes to point out, as he has done again, that this is about international factors and covid—there are lots of other reasons given. However, the Government fail to mention the mini-Budget fiasco caused by the previous Chancellor and the former Prime Minister, with its direct consequence of mortgage increases, with millions of people suffering. Why does the Economic Secretary not come clean on this, as the former Prime Minister and former Chancellor, who presided over that chaos, have done? It is not time that he stopped whitewashing and faced the reality of what he and his Government are responsible for, which is causing misery to people’s lives?
Andrew Griffith
The hon. Lady needs to look at the facts and the numbers. Despite moving in alignment with other international markets—and interest rates have increased over time—interest rates even today for mortgage holders are lower than those reached in October last year. So we are dealing with a macroeconomic international trend, which we are seeing across all western economies. We are moving in alignment with them, but this Government will always prioritise support for households, which is one reason why we have come forward with such significant economic packages in the past two years.
James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)
I would love to be able to pass on some good news to my constituents about their households bills. We are seeing wholesale energy costs fall but they are not being translated to the consumer. So how long after inflation falls will we see interest rates come down?
Andrew Griffith
My hon. Friend is a diligent champion for his constituents in Bracknell and I am sure it will not be too long before he has good news to talk about on prices that consumers face. We have seen the cost of fuel coming down and as we achieve the Prime Minister’s objective of halving inflation this year, so some of the cost of living pressures that his constituents face will abate. In the meantime, he should know that this Government are on the side of households and we have been willing to support them to the tune of about £3,300 every year. I wish his constituents all the best.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
Interest rates are up and mortgage deals are being pulled left, right and centre, yet the Minister has had to be dragged here to answer this urgent question. Will the Government please refocus on this mortgage crisis, rather than on the latest round of Conservative infighting, and give the public the reassurance they desperately need?
Andrew Griffith
I can give the hon. Lady the reassurance that the wellbeing of the nation’s mortgage holders, savers, pensioners and investors is the whole of my focus, as it is of all of my colleagues on the Treasury Bench. As Members on both side of the House will know, it is a feature of the UK mortgage market that from time to time mortgage deals are withdrawn from the market and repriced. As of now, there are more than 5,000 mortgage offers from different suppliers, at different tenures, in the market. It remains my focus to ensure that those who seek to buy a first home or to remortgage their home have the most competitive offers available.
Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con)
One of the biggest challenges facing our country is the inability of young people to afford to buy a home because of inflated house prices. Although recent interest rate rises have compounded the problem, is not the real problem that interest rates were far too low for far too long, turning savers away from saving and into property investment instead, and thus pushing up the price of property as an asset? Does my hon. Friend agree that this is not an easy problem to solve, but that one possible answer would be for local authorities to build homes that can be bought at a reduced rate, not by investors, but by local young people?
Andrew Griffith
I thank my hon. Friend who does a wonderful job of advocacy for her constituents, including those who seek to buy their first home. This Government, through a variety of measures to support householders in general, have helped more than 800,000 people, of all types, to purchase a property since 2010. That represents a city of approximately the size of Liverpool, such is the scale of the endeavours. It is of course important that we get the nation building, and part of that is about providing the economic stability whereby people are willing to make investments for the longer term.
Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)
The Government’s economic mismanagement has caused low growth, soaring food bills and record mortgage costs. Millions of hard-working people are being penalised for getting a foot on the housing ladder, in places such as Mid Bedfordshire, the area with the third highest share of mortgage holders in the country. The Minister mentioned the support from the mortgage interest scheme. [Interruption.] In this time of hard-pressed families, will his Government commit to converting that from a loan to a grant?
Andrew Griffith
I did not hear fully what the Member for Richmond Park aligned with Mid Bedfordshire was saying, but I am sure that residents in Mid Bedfordshire have welcomed the stability that we have brought to the economy and the fact that we have supported householders through the past two difficult years, making tough decisions and supporting households to the tune of about £3,300. They will also have welcomed the fact that we have the sort of responsible stewardship of the economy that means that we are not a Government who have historically left power with unemployment higher than when we arrived, leaving notes saying, “There is no money left.”
Mr Louie French (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con)
My hon. Friend is correct to highlight that we are facing international challenges and that monetary policy is the responsibility of the independent Bank of England. However, does he agree that Labour’s £90 billion-worth of unfunded spending commitments would make inflation and the cost of borrowing even worse?
Andrew Griffith
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for wonderful Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr French) for that. I recall that last October Opposition Members were never shy of citing the Institute for Fiscal Studies, but they do so much less today, because the IFS has said that Labour’s £28 billion borrowing plan would cause both interest rates and inflation to rise. I do not see how that would help the nation’s mortgage holders.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
The value of mortgage arrears has risen by a troubling 10% in the past quarter, so what is the Minister’s assessment of the likely level of arrears in the next quarter?
Andrew Griffith
I talked about the focus on the level of mortgage arrears, which are at an historic level. My Treasury colleagues and I are tracking them extremely closely. We have talked to all the lenders and the Chancellor has brought them all in to ensure that they have responsible policies in place so that repossessions are a last resort.
Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that although the Opposition like to blame the Government for this situation, the real problem lies with covid and the Bank of England? The Bank kept on putting money into the economy when the world had stopped producing everything, which meant that there was more money and fewer goods, and so inflation was obviously going to rise. Does he also agree that even though we are in this situation where the Bank is trying to do what it is doing and the Government are doing everything they can, continually putting up interest rates puts people in a really difficult position? Does he believe that we should see what the interest rate increases have done so far in the economy before the Bank of England keeps putting them up month on month?
Andrew Griffith
My hon. Friend speaks wisely and regularly on behalf of his constituents. I will not follow him quite so far as to comment on what the Bank of England should do next.
Just in response to the previous question, Mr Speaker, the level of arrears in residential mortgages, as reported by the FCA, was 0.8% compared with 3.3% back in 2009.
Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)
The Resolution Foundation has estimated that around 1.6 million households will see their fixed-rate deals come to a conclusion before the first quarter of 2024 and, therefore, will obviously feel the impact of increased rates. What is the Treasury’s assessment of the impact that this hit to households’ disposable incomes will have on the wider economy?
Andrew Griffith
We all want interest rates to fall as rapidly as possible. The Bank of England needs to conduct its monetary policy against the target that the Chancellor has set. The Government need to do everything we can to try to reduce the level of debt by controlling our spending, even when that creates difficult decisions for us to make. We will do that so that the day when interest rates fall comes more quickly. In the meantime, this Government are trying to shield households from the pressures of the cost of living, which is why we have deployed that £94 billion this year and last.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend see any consistency in the Opposition’s analysis that suggests that the primary cause for interest rate rises is unfunded borrowing, while making significant unfunded borrowing pledges themselves? Will he continue his focus on fiscal discipline and ensure that Government support is targeted at those who need it most in this period of astonishing international instability?
Andrew Griffith
My hon. Friend is absolutely right: the last thing that the economy needs at the moment is any party coming forward with more unfunded spending cuts. It is why the Institute for Fiscal Studies has raised concerns about an increase in interest rates and inflation if Labour were to come to power and spend an additional £28 billion, which I believe even the shadow Chancellor herself has confessed would be reckless.
Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab)
When would the Minister say the Tory party gave up being the party of home ownership? Was it when it crashed the economy last autumn, or was it when it scrapped house building targets?
Andrew Griffith
The hon. Lady is, I am afraid, completely incorrect. The Conservative party is absolutely on the side of home ownership. It is why we have always supported the right to buy, in the face of opposition not just from the Labour party but from Labour-controlled local councils. It is also why we continue to have a wide range of schemes in the market to help first-time buyers.
Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)
Santander is the latest major bank to temporarily pull its mortgage deals for new borrowers, just days after HSBC did the same. The Minister shrugs his shoulders as if to say that there is nothing to see here, but is it not the truth that this degree of turbulence is not normal, that inflation is significantly worse here than in Europe and the United States, and that ordinary people across the country will look at his denials today and wonder what planet he is living on?
Andrew Griffith
I honestly think that contribution from the hon. Member is unworthy. I would not go so far as to ask her to withdraw it, but if she looks at my comments she will see that I absolutely understand the anxiety that people have about their mortgages. It is a very significant part of people’s household finances. That is why we are using all the tools at our disposal: both providing public spending to protect and shield households at this difficult time, and making the tough decisions to get the economy growing again and to keep debt under control, which is the action that will result in interest rates falling sooner.
Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)
People from Luton have moved into Mid Bedfordshire to get on to the housing ladder or to raise their families. [Interruption.] It is true. Due to this Conservative Government’s economic failure, they are now facing soaring mortgage repayments, and we are even seeing banks withdrawing mortgage deals for new borrowers. How can voters trust the Government and the Conservatives to address the mortgage crisis when they are the ones who caused it?
Andrew Griffith
I am deeply intrigued by the concept that the hon. Lady’s constituents have hitherto been moving to the neighbouring Conservative-held seat of Mid Bedfordshire. Perhaps they recognise the better economic potential—the better opportunity to bring down rates as a result of our making the tough choices. Perhaps they welcome the sheer amount of support that we have provided for homebuyers. I wish her constituents well and hope that those who have moved to Mid Bedfordshire enjoy their next Conservative Member of Parliament.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
The Minister claims that the current economic climate is down to the world economic situation, but in the next breath he claims that if, at some unspecified date in the future, things get better, that would be down to the Government. Over the recent period, mortgage borrowers have contributed an extra £1 billion in interest rates. Over the next couple of years, they are predicted to contribute £9 billion. The previous Prime Minister has apologised for her contribution to that, so why will he not do the same?
Andrew Griffith
In fairness, it is absolutely the case that these are largely international factors. The job of the Government is to control the variables within their control. The primary thing that they can do is not to come forward with greater unfunded spending promises as that would put more pressure on the public purse and would lead to interest rates and inflation being higher for longer. That is what is within our controllable domain and that is what we are focused on. I am not worried about where the credit accrues or otherwise; what I am worried about is trying to reduce interest rates for ordinary people at the earliest opportunity.
Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)
The Minister talks about Government support and bandies about some big numbers, but does he understand that the effect of that for people is like taking a watering can to the economic bin fire that his Government set alight? Does the Minister have the humility to apologise right now to my constituents who are struggling? The mortgage rate rises might be the straw that breaks their backs—some are already broken—following as they do on the Government’s endeavours in terms of the mini-Budget and Brexit, which have fuelled this economic crisis.
Andrew Griffith
I thank the hon. Member for his question. It must have been quite hard to get through all those points without once mentioning the fact that this has an international dimension. There is a war on European soil in Ukraine, and we have just come through an unprecedented global pandemic. He simply tries to reduce this to whatever is his party’s particular topic of the day. That is not worthy of him when we are trying to have a proper economic debate.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
The Minister claims to be shielding families. He evidently is not going to say sorry. When everybody in this House is supporting their constituents, we need to know what assessment the Department has made of the number of people actually affected by recent increases in mortgage rates.
Andrew Griffith
I thank the hon. Lady for her question. Like others, the FCA has talked about the number of people in any one year whose mortgages are repriced. We do not know what the price of those will be. It seems that around 1 million to 1.5 million people are affected, so a significant number, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland) mentioned. There are also many savers in society. Rather than looking at what is happening, what we are doing to help is making those difficult decisions. We are not unleashing unfunded, uncosted spending plans on the public purse and we are trying to get through this to help people get to a world where inflation is falling, the cost of living pressures on them are reducing and we can get the economy growing again, which will provide good employment opportunities for her constituents.
Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP)
I wrote to the Minister earlier this week about the continuing problem of mortgage prisoners, following a comment from the Treasury that it is open to proportionate solutions for those frozen in that position after their mortgage lenders were sold from 2008. Recent reports state that the Government made a profit of £2.4 billion from selling on those mortgages. Will the Minister work with me, and with advocates for the tens of thousands of people trapped in those precarious financial circumstances, to find those proportionate solutions?
Andrew Griffith
The hon. Lady raises the plight of those who have been unable to access even the mortgages at elevated levels that we have been talking about here. I understand the problem; it is something I have given significant time to with my officials and I have read the recent work conducted by the London School of Economics. I hope that, in that spirit, she will also recognise that it is a complex issue and that within that overall collective there are many different individual fact patterns. While I am open to finding solutions, I hope she will recognise that it is not easy and there is no one-size-fits-all answer.
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
The Minister says there are 1,100,000 people affected by the mortgage market chaos inspired by the Truss-Kwarteng abracadabra magic last autumn. How many renters are affected? There is a renting crisis in my constituency and people simply cannot afford an overnight 20% increase in their rent.
Andrew Griffith
I do not have any figures for rental, but the rental market is something we look at closely and we will keep an eye on what happens to those buy-to-let renters. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities has brought a significant set of reforms before this House to help renters. I come back to the point that, however popular or unpopular it may be with the Opposition, the best way to manage this situation is to be prudent with the nation’s finances, to get the debt burden falling and to give the markets confidence so that interest rates fall as quickly as possible. I ask all colleagues to work with us on that. The last thing we should be doing is putting out the Opposition’s £28 billion a year of unfunded promises, which will spook the markets and lead to the sorts of rates that none of us wishes to see.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
Shockingly, new data this morning reveals that the value of mortgage arrears has risen by 10% on the quarter—the highest and fastest increase in more than a decade. Many of my constituents are struggling to pay their mortgages. Unfortunately, they are paying the price for the Conservative Government’s economic failures, because a typical household’s mortgage payments are now three times greater than they were just two years ago. What conversations and what meetings have the Minister and the Chancellor had with lenders, and what action will they take to provide forbearance for my constituents?
Andrew Griffith
I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would write to me with those statistics. The statistics I quoted earlier are that the level of mortgage arrears reported by the Financial Conduct Authority for the period up to the end of 2022 was 0.81%. That is a record low in recent memory, significantly lower than before the pandemic and much lower than it was in 2009. I am very happy to engage with him about the level of mortgage arrears. I engage with mortgage lenders all the time, as does the Chancellor, and we want them to have the right degree of forbearance for families who are struggling.
Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)
This Tory mortgage crisis is affecting my constituents. In London, mortgage costs are set to increase by more than £1.8 billion, people face the financial strain of high interest rates and incomes are not keeping up with those costs. When will the Minister finally get real, understand the impact of the crisis that his Government created and apologise to our constituents? What reassurances can he give to my constituents who will be facing remortgage costs?
Andrew Griffith
I can give a number of assurances to the hon. Lady’s constituents. I imagine that Battersea is a very cosmopolitan place, so as people travel around the world they will understand that western economies across the world are facing exactly the same impact on the cost of living and on interest rates. She talked about £1.8 billion as a very large number; indeed it is, and we share the concern of those with mortgages. However, I put it to her that £94 billion is also a very big number, and that is the amount of household support that we are providing during this cost of living crisis.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)
Earlier this year we saw the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank and Credit Suisse. What assessment has the Treasury undertaken of the general resilience of UK financial institutions, especially in a context where rising mortgage costs might lead to a rapid increase in household repossessions?
Andrew Griffith
My Treasury colleagues and I liaise closely with the Bank of England and the Prudential Regulation Authority, whose job it is to assure us of the soundness and resilience of banks. The Governor has talked about how the UK financial system is safe, secure and soundly capitalised, and that remains my belief.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
York is a low-wage economy, yet we have extortionate house prices. Last year, housing costs went up by 23.1% in York—the highest rise in the country. My constituents are already mortgaged to the hilt and cannot afford more. What protections will the Minister put in place if mortgage rates rise further, as they are predicted to do? My constituents simply cannot afford their mortgages and they cannot afford this Government.
Andrew Griffith
If York is a low-wage economy, the hon. Lady’s constituents will be benefiting enormously from the unprecedented 9.7% increase in the national living wage. The measures we are putting—[Interruption.] Perhaps she does not like the 9.7% increase in the national living wage that this Government came forward with. We are putting measures in place with lenders, including forbearance, and working with the Department for Work and Pensions on mortgage interest support and to ensure that families have access to the support they need.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
The typical household’s mortgage payments have risen threefold in the last two years, yet in the north-east the typical wage packet is lower than when the Conservatives came to power 13 years ago. The Minister refuses to take any responsibility for the economic misery his Government are inflicting, despite having flagrantly and blatantly crashed the economy less than a year ago. Will he tell my constituents why they should carry on paying the price of Conservatism?
Andrew Griffith
Once again, we have a contribution from the hon. Lady that completely ignores the fact of the global pandemic, the £400 billion of support we have provided and, although I believe she is highly literate in these matters, the fact that interest rates are rising across the western world.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
In the first three months of this year, repossessions increased by 27% on the same period last year, and the latest estimates show that 2.5 million customers will need to renegotiate their mortgages over the next two years, with their payments increasing by £9 billion. Is the Minister really telling us that he is satisfied and that he has no reservations about the way that his Government have mismanaged the economy, with the consequent economic turbulence and soaring interest rates that are literally pricing people out of their homes?
Andrew Griffith
This Government are focused—and this is what our constituents want to hear—on halving inflation, growing the economy and reducing the debt burden. From today forwards, that is the action we can take that will see interest rates falling sooner, reduce inflation and get us back to a position of economic growth. I am sure the hon. Lady wants that for her constituents as much as I do.
Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
The Conservative party once prided itself on being the party of homeowners. The fact that we long ago ran out of Conservatives asking questions makes it clear that Tory MPs realise they have nothing to say to those people. Does the Minister realise that my constituents who are desperately worried about the cost of their mortgages will not have heard a single word from him to suggest that things are going to get better as a result of this Government’s actions?
Andrew Griffith
I can absolutely reassure the hon. Gentleman that the Government are focused on his constituents, even if his colleagues find it useful to ask the same question again and again. We are focused on not making the sort of unfunded spending commitments—such as the £28 billion that the right hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) herself described as “reckless”—that would really cause difficulties for mortgage holders in Chesterfield and across the United Kingdom.
Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)
Given the jump in mortgage arrears, and to help everyone who is struggling to pay the Tory surcharge on their mortgages since the disastrous mini-Budget, is the Minister considering increasing access to mortgage interest relief?
Andrew Griffith
There are no plans to change that. Those are matters for fiscal events and for the Chancellor.
Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)
The Tory mortgage crisis is affecting my constituents in Putney, including a group of young sharers I met this week whose landlord has had his mortgage increased and has passed the costs down to them. They have to leave their home and the area because they can no longer afford to live in south-west London. The Minister has blamed global factors again and again, but the cost of borrowing is higher here in the UK than in other developed economies. Does he agree that this is a Tory mortgage penalty—a Truss tax—and that the Government are to blame for the 13 disastrous years of housing policy that have brought us here?
Andrew Griffith
I do not agree with the hon. Lady, however fine her rhetoric may be. The reality is that, if we want the nation’s householders to pay less for their mortgages, we need responsible Conservative management of the economy. When it comes to her Putney constituency, the best thing that she can do, if she is on the side of those who wish to own their own home, is urge the Labour Mayor to build more homes.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
Order. [Interruption.] No; do not argue with me.
Madam Deputy Speaker
No, you are not. That question is finished. There is a danger that the House might not be able to hear the question from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon).
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
There is no danger of that when you are in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I thank the Minister for his answers to some very difficult questions. It has been said that 1.5 million households, including some of my Strangford constituents, are set to come off fixed mortgage deals this year and face a sharp rise in their monthly repayments—up to 1.56 percentage points from Tuesday. Has the Minister made an assessment of the impact on those who are considering buying their first house in the next year or so, and will he assure the House that discussions are taking place with local banks on what we can do to support people through the process of buying their first homes amid shocking price increases?
Andrew Griffith
Let me be clear: the Government understand—I understand—the anxiety of those who have a mortgage, those who have invested in their home and those who wish to do so. That is why we will do everything we can—be it providing financial support to the tune of £94 billion, or making good decisions about our stewardship of the economy and not coming up with unfunded spending commitments—to ensure that we get back, as quickly as possible, to a world of falling interest rates and falling inflation, and support those who wish to buy a home above their head.
Spiking
Tuesday 13th June 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Spiking Bill 2022-23 View all Spiking Bill 2022-23 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate
A Ten Minute Rule Bill is a First Reading of a Private Members Bill, but with the sponsor permitted to make a ten minute speech outlining the reasons for the proposed legislation.
There is little chance of the Bill proceeding further unless there is unanimous consent for the Bill or the Government elects to support the Bill directly.
For more information see: Ten Minute Bills
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision about the law in relation to administering or attempting to administer drugs, alcohol or any other substance to a person without their consent, whether or not with the intent to cause harm; and for connected purposes.
The clue to the purpose of the ten-minute rule motion is the word “spiking”, which is known and understood by everyone in this Chamber and the vast majority of people in our country. Spiking has been debated before in this House, most recently on 11 January in a Westminster Hall debate in my name. Many Members here today spoke in that debate. Spiking was also the subject of a Home Affairs Committee report published in April 2022.
Almost 5,000 cases of spiking have been reported to police forces across the country. The fact that the police are not obliged formally to collate data on spiking suggests that this is the visible tip of a largely hidden iceberg. That is why spiking was the subject of my earlier ten-minute rule Bill 18 months ago, why the Select Committee focused on the issue, and why it welcomed Ministers at that time looking closely at creating a separate offence of spiking. The Select Committee recommended—rightly, in my view—the creation of a specific offence that would improve reporting of spiking and the gathering of more information about it.
We all recognise that the current legislation on spiking centres on the Offences against the Person Act 1861 and the Sexual Offences Act 2003. One covers the use of noxious substances, the other sexual gratification. However, both Acts are silent on the word “spiking”, which does not exist formally. Indeed, search engines describe it as an informal term meaning to
“add alcohol or a drug to contaminate (drink or food) surreptitiously”.
That is part of it, but it is not all of it.
Some lawyers may argue that existing law covers all aspects of what we term “spiking”—including even spiking by injection, spiking for fun, and spiking without chemical addition—and that we do not need a new informal term in law, a definition of it, or any bringing together of existing laws in modern language and in one place to inform the nightlife sector, the public, colleges and universities, the police and the public at large. I regret to say that the implied message from the Home Office is, “It is all fine as it is.” Yet it is not fine, which is why I am here, like Oliver Twist, seeking more—or rather, seeking action, which is what colleagues from all parties want to see.
When the police do not have to collect the data but have still recorded 5,000 reported cases; when police and crime commissioners want, and the Select Committee recommends, a definition of and a crime described as “spiking”; and when Government Ministers and MPs themselves have been victims of spiking, I believe that it is time for the Government to react and act.
Let me repeat what colleagues have said on previous occasions. One said:
“I know from my inbox that people of all ages and areas will be very pleased that this is being highlighted as it’s awful, can be embarrassing and is often very grim”.
Another wrote that
“speaking to police they find that most cases are young women with an unexpected response to drinks…I really worry about the fear that our young live under, and wonder whether this is another type of control of women.”
The Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), highlighted the problem when she said:
“There is not a specific criminal offence. If a drink is spiked or if an injection takes place, it is rolled into a different criminal offence.”
Those things have all helped to build my understanding of this nightmare experience, which was first drawn to my attention by the experience of my constituent, Maisy Farmer. It is no longer possible for an MP to claim credibly that reports of spiking are unproven. However, it is true that it is not easy for a victim to prove spiking by having a hospital examination of her—or sometimes his—body prioritised to identify the drug, or to provide the identity of a spiker from a crowded nightclub.
That raises two key questions: how should the law change, and what would a change of law achieve? No MP has the responses of Government Departments in advance, so whether it is best to amend existing law or to create a new, defined crime of spiking that covers all contexts is surely for the Government—the Home Office and Ministry of Justice together—to decide.
As to what such a change might achieve, there is a clear opportunity to send a simple message in the language of our times to all those who might think spiking is clever or funny about the criminality of spiking, or attempting to spike, those going out to public or private places.
It is surely a legitimate aim of legislation to consolidate and clarify, using modern language; to nudge behaviour; and to oblige the police to do more than Operation Lester—a temporary project—and to record what is happening accurately over time. Legislation would allow us all in this place to focus on making our constituents’ lives, and nights out, safer, and give our businesses full support in driving down spiking crimes.
The overriding reason for pursuing doggedly the issue of spiking is that we have not done enough and should do more. As the former safeguarding Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Rachel Maclean), said in January:
“We need a holistic response to this crime...We need…legislative change…making sure that police forces can gather data and mount prosecutions using forensic capabilities”—[Official Report, 11 January 2023; Vol. 725, c. 270WH.]
She and many colleagues highlighted, as does the National Police Chiefs’ Council, the lack of a clear criminal offence of spiking.
If the Home Office and Ministry of Justice need further encouragement, I urge them to consider the matter as a violence against woman and girls issue, as it so often is. Policing lead Maggie Blyth said: “If you are spiked, you must come forward. If you have taken illegal drugs, still come forward and report it.” That would be much easier if spiking were a crime. So many of my colleagues and constituents, as well as university groups, student unions, and Dawn Dines of Stamp Out Spiking, have made those points time and again. As the Security Minister said in the previous debate,
“no one wants a gap in the law. No one wants to see crimes going unpunished and no one wants to see victims unable to achieve the level of protection that is absolutely essential.”—[Official Report, 11 January 2023; Vol. 725, c. 282WH.]
That is true and fine, but we need to act, for the thousands of people who have been spiked and those who might still be. The House is here to reflect the concerns of our constituents. We should recognise that spiking exists and should be defined. The law should make all the criminal aspects of spiking clear, in one place. It is quite simply time to stop spiking now.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Richard Graham, Vicky Ford, Sally-Ann Hart, Caroline Nokes, Dame Diana Johnson, Valerie Vaz, Joanna Cherry, Wendy Chamberlain, Jim Shannon and David Mundell present the Bill.
Richard Graham accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 November, and to be printed (Bill 323).
Procurement Bill [Lords]
Tuesday 13th June 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Procurement Act 2023 View all Procurement Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 13 June 2023 - large print - (13 Jun 2023)
16:47 - The House divided: - Ayes: 231 / Noes: 282 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:02 - The House divided: - Ayes: 230 / Noes: 280 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:14 - The House divided: - Ayes: 225 / Noes: 288 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:25 - The House divided: - Ayes: 229 / Noes: 280 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 1—Removal from the procurement supply chain of physical surveillance equipment produced by companies subject to the National Intelligence Law of the People’s Republic of China—
“(1) Within six months of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State must publish a timeline for the removal from the Government’s procurement supply chain of physical surveillance equipment produced by companies subject to the National Intelligence Law of the People’s Republic of China.
(2) The Secretary of State must lay the timeline before Parliament.”
New clause 9—Application of this Act to procurement by NHS England—
“(1) Omit sections 79 and 80 of the Health and Care Act 2022.
(2) For the avoidance of doubt, the provisions of this Act apply to procurement by NHS England.”
This new clause includes the NHS under this Act and procurement by NHS England under the Health and Care Act 2022.
New clause 10—Tax transparency—
“(1) This section applies to any covered procurement for a public contract with an estimated value of £5 million or over.
(2) When assessing tenders under section 19 or awarding a contract under section 41 or 43, a contracting authority must require the submission of a tax report where a supplier is a multi-national supplier.
(3) Where a multi-national supplier fails to submit a tax report, a contracting authority must exclude the supplier from participating in, or progressing as part of, the competitive tendering procedure.
(4) Subject to subsection (5), a contracting authority that enters into a contract with a multi-national supplier must publish a copy of the tax report—
(a) if the contract is a light touch contract, before the end of the period of 120 days beginning with the day on which the contract is entered into;
(b) otherwise, before the end of the period of 30 days beginning with the day on which the contract is entered into.
(5) Where a copy of a contract is by virtue of regulations under section 95 published under section 53(3) on a specified online system, the tax report relating to that contract must be published on the same specified online system—
(a) if the contract is a light touch contract, before the end of the period of 120 days beginning with the day on which the contract is entered into;
(b) otherwise, before the end of the period of 30 days beginning with the day on which the contract is entered into.
(6) A ‘multi-national supplier’ is a supplier with two or more enterprises that are resident for tax purposes in two or more different jurisdictions.
(7) A ‘tax report’ means a report setting out—
(a) the income booked in the UK,
(b) the profit before tax attributable to the UK,
(c) the corporate income tax paid on a cash basis in the UK,
(d) the corporate income tax accrued on profit/loss attributable to the UK, and
(e) any other information specified in regulations under section 95
for the multinational supplier.
(8) A Minister of the Crown may by regulations amend this section for the purpose of changing the financial threshold.”
This new clause would require large multinational corporations bidding for a public contract to provide information about their Income booked in the UK, their profit before tax attributable to the UK, their corporate income tax paid on a cash basis in the UK and their corporate income tax accrued on profit/loss attributable to the UK, and that information to be published.
New clause 11—Public interest—
“(1) Where a contracting authority is considering outsourcing public services that are at the time of consideration delivered in-house or where contracts are due for renewal, the contracting authority must demonstrate that they have considered whether outsourcing or re-contracting provides greater public value than direct service provision.
(2) As part of the duty in subsection (1), the contracting authority should demonstrate that it has assessed the potential benefits and impact of outsourcing the service in question against a public sector comparator with assessments being based on criteria to be set by the Secretary of State, including taking a five year consideration of—
(a) service quality and accessibility;
(b) value for money of the expenditure;
(c) implications for other public services and public sector budgets;
(d) resilience of the service being provided;
(e) implications for the local economy and availability of good work in relevant sub-national labour markets;
(f) implications for public accountability and transparency;
(g) effect on employment conditions, terms and standards within the provision of the service to be outsourced and when outsourced;
(h) implications for public sector contributions to climate change and environmental targets;
(i) implications for the equalities policies of the contracting authority and compliance with the public sector equality duty.
(3) The contracting authority and the supplier of the outsourced service must monitor the performance of any contracted service against the public interest test and the stated objectives set by the contracting authority pre-procurement to demonstrate that outsourcing the service in question has not resulted in a negative impact on any of the matters mentioned in subsection (2)(a) to (i).
(4) The Secretary of State must from time to time set budget thresholds for when a public interest test would be required.”
The new clause would create a process to ensure that contracting authorities safeguard the public interest when considering whether or not to outsource or recontract services.
New clause 12—Protection of subcontractors’ payments under construction contracts—
“(1) A project bank account must be established for the purpose of subsections (2) to (4) in accordance with the following requirements—
(a) the account must be set up by the contracting authority and the contractor under a construction contract as joint account-holders;
(b) the monies in the account are held in trust by the contracting authority and contractor as joint trustees;
(c) the contracting authority must deposit in the account all sums becoming due to the beneficiaries and any disputed sums must remain in the account until the dispute is resolved and any retention monies remain in the account until they are released to the beneficiaries;
(d) due payments from the account must be made to all beneficiaries simultaneously; and
(e) the beneficiaries include—
(i) the contractor;
(ii) all subcontractors where the value of each subcontract is at least 1% of the value (excluding VAT) of the construction contract entered into between the contracting authority and the contractor; and
(iii) any other subcontractor which has specifically requested that its payments be discharged through the account.
(2) Subsections (3) and (4) have application to construction contracts having a value in excess of £2 million (excluding VAT).
(3) Not later than 30 days after entering into a construction contract a contracting authority must ensure that a project bank account is in place.
(4) In the event that a contracting authority fails to comply with this subsection the construction contract ceases to be valid and may not be enforced by either party.
(5) The Secretary of State must provide statutory guidance on the operation of project bank accounts to ensure that such operation is standardised amongst all contracting authorities.
(6) Subsections (7) to (10) apply where retention monies are not protected within a project bank account.
(7) The contracting authority must establish a retention deposit account with a bank or building society which fulfils the requirements of subsection (1)(a) and (b).
(8) On each occasion that retention monies are withheld the contracting authority must lodge them within the retention deposit account and maintain a record of the names of each subcontractor having contributed to the withheld monies and the amount of the monies contributed by each.
(9) Subject to subsection (10), not later than 30 days after the date of handover of each subcontracted works at least 50% of the withheld retention monies must be released, and not later than the date which is 12 months from the date of handover of each subcontracted works the balance of the retention monies must be released.
(10) A contracting authority has a right of recourse to subcontractors’ retention monies but such right is limited to any subcontractor which is in default of its subcontract in having delivered works which are defective and in breach of the subcontract.
(11) Paragraphs (9) and (10) also apply where retention monies are protected in a project bank account.
(12) Non-compliance with subsections (6) to (11) renders any entitlement to withhold retention monies in a construction contract or subcontracts of no effect.
(13) Subsections (6) to (12) do not affect the right of any subcontractor to pursue recovery of any outstanding or wrongfully withheld retention monies against its other contracting party.
(14) The Secretary of State must provide statutory guidance on the operation of retention deposit accounts to ensure such operation is standardized amongst all contracting authorities.
(15) Any dispute under this section is referrable to adjudication in accordance with section 108 of the Housing Grants, Construction and Regeneration Act 1996.
(16) The Secretary of State must carry out a review of the operation of this section within 5 years of it coming into force.
(17) In this section—
“bank” has the meaning given to it in section 2 of the Banking Act 2009;
“building society” has the meaning given to it in section 119 of the Building Societies Act 1986;
“contractor” is the party engaged under a construction contract with a contracting authority;
“construction contract” has the meaning given to it in section 104, Housing Grants, Construction and Regeneration Act 1996;
“handover of each subcontracted works” signifies the date when the works as defined in each subcontract are substantially complete;
“project bank account” is an account set up with a bank or building society which has the requirements listed in subsection (2);
“retention monies” mean a proportion of monies withheld from payments which would otherwise be due under a construction contract, subcontract or any ancillary contract the effect of which is to provide security for the current or future performance by the party carrying out the works;
“subcontract” and “subcontractor” includes sub-subcontracts and sub-subcontractors.”
This new clause ring-fences monies due to subcontractors in construction supply chains through mandating use of project bank accounts and ensuring retention monies are safeguarded in a separate and independent account.
New clause 13—Dependence on high-risk states—
“(1) The Secretary of State must within six months publish a plan to reduce the dependence of public bodies upon goods and services which originate in whole or in part in a country considered by the United Kingdom as a high risk sourcing country.
(2) For the purposes of this section, a country is considered a high risk sourcing country by the United Kingdom if it is defined as either a systemic competitor or a threat in the latest Integrated Review of Security, Defence, Development and Foreign Policy.”
New clause 14—Procurement and human rights—
“(1) A contracting authority may apply a policy under which it does not contract for the supply of goods, services or works from a foreign country or territory based on the conduct of that foreign country or territory relating to human rights, provided that—
(a) the contracting authority has a Statement of Policy Relating to Human Rights, and
(b) that statement of policy is applied consistently and not specifically to any one foreign country or territory.
(2) Within six months of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State must publish, and lay before Parliament, guidance on the form, content and application of Statements of Policy Relating to Human Rights for the purposes of subsection (1).
(3) Contracting authorities must have regard to the guidance published under subsection (2) when applying a policy in accordance with subsection (1).”
This new clause would enable public authorities to choose not to buy goods or services from countries based on their human rights record. They would not be able to single out individual nations to apply such a policy to, but would have to apply it consistently, and in accordance with guidance published by the Secretary of State.
New clause 16—Eradicating slavery and human trafficking in supply chains—
“(1) The Secretary of State must by regulations make such provision as the Secretary of State thinks appropriate with a view to eradicating the use in covered procurement of goods or services that are tainted by slavery and human trafficking.
(2) The regulations may, in particular, include—
(a) provision as to circumstances in which a supplier is excluded from consideration for the award of a contract;
(b) provision as to steps that must be taken by contracting authorities for assessing and addressing the risk of slavery and human trafficking taking place in relation to people involved in procurement supply chains;
(c) provision as to matters for which provision must be made in contracts for goods or services entered into by contracting authorities, including mandating or enabling the use of forensic supply chain tracing.
(3) In this section— “forensic supply chain tracing” is the process of using forensic techniques to track the movement of goods and services through a supply chain; “slavery and human trafficking” has the meaning given by section 54(12) of the Modern Slavery Act 2015; “tainted”: goods or services are “tainted” by slavery and human trafficking if slavery and human trafficking takes place in relation to anyone involved in the supply chain for providing those goods or services.”
New clause 17—Food procurement—
“(1) A public contract which includes the supply of food must include provisions ensuring that the supply of food under that contract—
(a) is aligned with the Eatwell Guide, and
(b) includes options suitable for a plant-based diet.
(2) The ‘Eatwell Guide’ is the policy tool used to define government recommendations on eating healthily and achieving a balanced diet published by Public Health England on 17 March 2016, as updated from time to time.”
This new clause would require public contracts for the supply of food to be aligned with current nutritional guidelines and to include plant-based options.
Amendment 14, in clause 2, page 2, line 15, after “funds,” insert “including the NHS,”.
This amendment includes the NHS in the definition of a public authority for the purposes of this Act.
Government amendments 19 and 20.
Amendment 60, in clause 13, page 10, line 11, at end insert—
“(3A) When the Minister lays the statement before Parliament, the Minister must also lay before Parliament a report which sets out—
(a) the Secretary of State’s assessment of the impact of the statement on meeting environmental and climate targets,
(b) the steps the Secretary of State has taken or intends to take in relation to procurement to support the meeting of those targets.”
This amendment would require the Secretary of State to explain in a report laid before Parliament the Government’s assessment of the impact of the national procurement policy statement on meeting environmental and climate targets and to set out any intended steps in relation to the meeting of those targets.
Amendment 4, in clause 19, page 13, line 31, at end insert—
“(aa) must disregard any tender from a supplier that does not guarantee the payment of at least the Real Living Wage to all its own employees and contracted staff and those of any sub-contractors;”
This amendment, together with Amendments 5 to 8, is designed to ensure that no public contract can be let unless the supplier guarantees the payment of the Real Living Wage to all those involved in the delivery of the contract.
Amendment 5, in clause 41, page 28, line 26, at end insert—
“(3A) A contracting authority may not award a contract under this section to a supplier that does not guarantee the payment of at least the Real Living Wage to all its own employees and contracted staff and those of any sub-contractors.”
See explanatory statement to Amendment 4.
Amendment 1, in clause 42, page 29, line 14, at end insert—
“(3A) Provision under subsection (1) must not confer any preferential treatment on suppliers connected to or recommended by members of the House of Commons or members of the House of Lords.”
This amendment is intended to prevent the future use of “VIP lanes” for public contracts.
Government amendments 21 to 23.
Amendment 6, in clause 43, page 30, line 3, at end insert—
“(5A) A contracting authority may not award a contract under subsection (1) to a supplier that does not guarantee the payment of at least the Real Living Wage to all its own employees and contracted staff and those of any sub-contractors.”
See explanatory statement to Amendment 4.
Amendment 2, in clause 44, page 30, line 16, at end insert—
“(4) Any Minister of the Crown, Member of Parliament, Member of the House of Lords or senior civil servant involved in recommending a supplier for a contract under section 41 or 43 must make a public declaration to the Cabinet Office of any private financial interest in that supplier within 10 working days.”
This amendment would implement a recommendation by the National Audit Office that any contracts awarded under emergency provisions or direct awards should include transparency declarations.
Amendment 7, in clause 45, page 31, line 6, at end insert—
“(aa) permit the award of a public contract to a supplier that does not guarantee the payment of at least the Real Living Wage to all its own employees and contracted staff and those of any sub-contractors.”
See explanatory statement to Amendment 4.
Government amendments 24 to 30.
Amendment 61, in clause 58, page 40, line 38, leave out paragraph (c).
This amendment would remove provision allowing a contracting authority to have regard to commitments to prevent circumstances giving rise to the application of an exclusion ground from occurring again when considering whether a supplier should be excluded.
Amendment 62, page 40, line 41, leave out paragraph (e).
This amendment would remove provision allowing a contracting authority to have regard to evidence, explanations or factors not specified elsewhere in the clause when considering whether a supplier should be excluded.
Amendment 63, page 41, line 8, leave out subsection (3).
This amendment removes clause 58 (3), which limits the ability of a contracting authority to require whatever evidence is necessary to make their assessment about whether a supplier is reliable.
Government amendments 31 to 50.
Amendment 17, in clause 68, page 49, line 15, at end insert—
“(10A) Within a year of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State must prepare, publish and lay before Parliament a report on the effectiveness of this section in ensuring prompt payment of small and medium-sized enterprises.
(10B) Not later than 6 months after the report has been laid before Parliament, a Minister of the Crown must make a motion in the House of Commons in relation to the report.”
This amendment would require the Government to report to Parliament on the effectiveness of this section in ensuring prompt payment of SMEs.
Amendment 68, in clause 71, page 51, line 11, at end insert—
“(6A) When a planned procurement notice is published under section 15 or a tender notice is published under section 21, the contracting authority must include a statement of the outcomes which the contract is intended to achieve.
(6B) The contracting authority must commission an independent evaluation of whether each contract delivered the outcomes mentioned in subsection (6A), unless the contract is excluded by regulations under subsection (6D).
(6C) An evaluation under subsection (6B) must—
(a) be performed by an independent body in accordance with UK Government Evaluation Standards, and include a clear recommendation on whether similar further public contracts should be begun, renewed or extended;
(b) be commissioned in time to be completed within six months of contract termination, renewal or extension;
(c) be published in full by the contracting authority immediately it is received from the independent external body.
(6D) The Secretary of State may by regulations specify types of contracts that do not require independent evaluations under subsection (6B).
(6E) Where the independent evaluation under subsection (6B) recommends that similar public contracts should not be begun, extended or renewed, any contracting authority which nonetheless intends to do so must publish its reasons not less than 30 days before the agreement is begun, extended or renewed.”
Government amendments 51 to 55.
Amendment 13, page 78, line 12, leave out clause 119.
Amendment 8, in clause 122, page 82, line 5, at end insert—
“‘Real Living Wage’ means the hourly wage rates for London and for outside London calculated annually by the Resolution Foundation and overseen by the Living Wage Commission (or their successor bodies);”.
This amendment inserts a definition of the Real Living Wage for the purposes of Amendments 4 to 7.
Government amendment 56.
Amendment 64, in schedule 6, page 106, line 7, at end insert
“or an offence under section 86, 88 or 92 of the Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017.”
This amendment is intended to ensure that the full range of criminal offences for money laundering are properly captured for the purposes of exclusion from public procurement.
Amendment 65, page 106, line 12, leave out “or 6” and insert ”, 6 or 7”.
This amendment includes the failure of commercial organisations to prevent bribery as an offence which is a mandatory exclusion ground.
Amendment 66, page 106, line 14, at end insert—
18A An offence under Schedule 3 of the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 (sanctions evasion offences).”
This amendment is intended to make criminal offences for sanctions evasion grounds for mandatory exclusion from public procurement.
Government amendment 57.
Amendment 15, page 110, line 12, at end insert—
“National security
42A A mandatory exclusion ground applies to a supplier if a decision-maker determines that the supplier or a connected person poses a threat to the national security of the United Kingdom.”
This amendment would move national security from among the discretionary exclusion grounds in Schedule 7 to the mandatory exclusion grounds in Schedule 6.
Government amendment 58.
Amendment 18, in schedule 7, page 113, line 2, at end insert—
“1A A discretionary exclusion ground applies to a supplier if a contracting authority determines that a supplier, within a year leading to the date of tender—
(a) has been found by an employment tribunal or court to have significantly breached the rights of an employee or worker engaged or formerly engaged by it with one or more aggravating features, or has admitted to doing so; and
(b) has not conformed with applicable obligations in the fields of environmental, social and labour law established by national law, collective agreements or international environmental, social and labour law provisions; and
(c) has not taken steps to rectify the situation through—
(i) paying or undertaking to pay compensation in respect of any damage caused by the breach of rights; and
(ii) clarifying the facts and circumstances in a comprehensive manner by actively collaborating with any relevant employment tribunal or court process and the parties thereto; and
(iii) taking concrete technical, organisational and personnel measures appropriate to prevent further breaches of rights of a similar kind.
1B In making a decision on whether a discretionary exclusion ground applies to a supplier under paragraph 1A, a contracting authority must—
(a) evaluate the adequacy of any action taken by the supplier in accordance with sub-paragraph (c) of that paragraph, taking into account the gravity and particular circumstances of the breach or breaches of rights, and
(b) make reasonable provision for the employer and the employee or worker concerned to make representations, which may be made by agreement by a trade association or trade union.”
This amendment would give contracting authorities the discretion to exclude suppliers who have significantly and repeatedly breached the rights of staff in the last year unless they have “self-cleansed”.
Amendment 67, page 113, line 17, at end insert—
“Financial and economic misconduct
3A A discretionary exclusion ground applies to a supplier if the decision-maker considers that there is sufficient evidence that the supplier or a connected person has engaged in conduct (whether in or outside the United Kingdom) constituting (or that would, if it occurred in the United Kingdom, constitute) any of the following offences—
(a) an offence under section 327, 328 or 329 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (money laundering offences);
(b) an offence under section 86, 88 or 92 of the Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017;
(c) an offence under Schedule 3 to the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 (sanctions evasion offences);
(d) an offence under section 2, 3, 4, 6 or 7 of the Fraud Act 2006 (fraud offences);
(e) an offence under section 993 of the Companies Act 2006 (fraudulent trading);
(f) an offence under section 1, 2, 6 or 7 of the Bribery Act 2010 (bribery offences).”
This amendment is intended to allow relevant Ministers and Contracting Authorities the power to exclude suppliers from procurement where they have evidence of financial and economic criminal activity, such as fraud, money laundering, bribery or sanctions evasion, but there has not yet been a conviction by a court.
Amendment 16, page 116, line 6, at end insert—
“Sanctions offences
14A(1) A discretionary exclusion ground applies to a supplier if the decision-maker considers that the supplier or a connected person has engaged in conduct constituting—
(a) An offence established in any regulations made under Part 1 of the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018;
(b) An offence established under Part 5 of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979.
(2) A discretionary exclusion ground applies to a supplier if the decision-maker considers that there is sufficient evidence that the supplier or a connected person has engaged in conduct outside of the United Kingdom that could result in such an offence being committed if that conduct occurred in the United Kingdom.”
This amendment would create a discretionary exclusion ground where a supplier (or connected person) has violated UK sanctions or export controls, or would have done so if they were in the UK.
Amendment 3, page 116, line 10, at end insert—
“Involvement in forced organ harvesting
14A(1) A discretionary exclusion ground applies to a supplier if a decision-maker determines that the supplier or a connected person has been, or is, involved in—
(a) forced organ harvesting,
(b) unethical activities relating to human tissue, including anything which involves the commission of an offence under sections 32 (prohibition of commercial dealings in human material for transplantation), 32A (offences under section 32 committed outside UK) or 33 (restriction on transplants involving a live donor) of the Human Tissue Act 2004, or under sections 20 (prohibition of commercial dealings in parts of a human body for transplantation) or 20A (offences under section 20 committed outside UK) of the Human Tissue (Scotland) Act 2006, or
(c) dealing in any device or equipment or services relating to conduct mentioned in paragraphs (a) or (b).
(2) “Forced organ harvesting” means killing a person without their consent so that their organs may be removed and transplanted into another person.”
This amendment is designed to give a discretionary power to exclude suppliers from being awarded a public contract who have participated in forced organ harvesting or unethical activities relating to human tissue, including where they are involved in providing a service or goods relating to such activities.
Government amendment 59.
Alex Burghart
It is a genuine honour to take the Procurement Bill through Report stage. As the House will know, this is a major piece of post-Brexit legislation that enables us, for the first time in many decades, to reform our procurement system, to the benefit of contracting authorities, suppliers and taxpayers.
I begin with new clause 15 and amendment 52. We are inserting into the Bill a new clause that allows us to meet the UK’s international obligations on record keeping. We are strengthening record keeping obligations in the Bill to more fully reflect our obligations in both the agreement on Government procurement—the GPA—and the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership. They both require records to be kept for a minimum of three years. New clause 15 sets out the obligation on contracting authorities to
“keep such records as the authority considers sufficient to explain a material decision made for the purpose of awarding or entering into a public contract.”
A material decision is one that requires a contracting authority
“to publish or provide a notice, document or other information in relation to the decision”,
or decisions, that are required to be made under the Bill. Records must be kept for three years from award of, or entry into, a contract—or, if the contract is awarded but not entered into, from the date of the decision not to enter into it.
The primary goal of the Bill is to streamline procurement regulations and ensure the overall efficiency of the system, while avoiding overwhelming businesses and contracting authorities with a multitude of rules and regulations—a point that we will no doubt return to this afternoon. As such, and in line with international requirements, the obligations attach only to the award of, and entry into, contracts; they do not apply to the management stage of a contract.
Information on the management of major contracts will of course be put into the public domain, thanks to the Bill’s considerable transparency obligations. That includes information on key performance indicators, such as performance against them; information on amendments to contracts; and information on contract termination, which will require reporting on performance. The time limit already in the Bill on the duty to maintain records of communications with suppliers is being relocated to sit alongside the new record keeping duty. The record keeping requirement is intended to act as a minimum; contracting authorities may of course keep records for longer, and indeed may be required to do so under other legislation.
Government amendments 24 and 25 change the point at which, under clause 52(1), contracting authorities are required to publish key performance indicators. They will no longer have to do so before entering into a public contract. Instead, there will be a requirement to publish them under proposed new subsection (2A) of clause 52. Clause 53, on contract details notices, provides that the details of KPIs will be specified in regulations under clause 95. That is because it is not possible to publish the KPIs before entering into the public contract, as they arise as part of the process of entering into the contract.
Government amendments 19, 20 and 56 make a necessary technical adjustment to ensure that the City of London Corporation is caught by the Bill in respect of its public sector functions, but not its commercial functions. The Bill is intended to apply to local authorities—clause 2 makes it clear that publicly funded bodies are caught by it—but due to its evolution and structure, the corporation does not operate solely as a local authority. It has significant private sector trading activities—for example, it operates private schools and undertakes property management—that are clearly not intended to be caught by the Bill. Unlike district and county councils, being a local authority is not the corporation’s raison d’être; rather, it has some local authority functions bolted on to its wider organisational functions. Without the amendments to clause 2 and schedule 2, there would be a risk of unintended consequences; the Bill would apply to either all the corporation’s activities, including its commercial activities, or none of them, depending on whether the corporation’s balance of income was derived mainly from its trading activities or from public funds in any one year.
Government amendments 21 to 23 resolve a drafting inconsistency between clause 19, which governs the award of contracts following a competitive procedure, and clause 43, which has rules allowing a contracting authority to switch to direct award if no suitable tender was received in a competition. Under clause 19, a tender may be disregarded in a competition if it breaches a procedural requirement set by the contracting authority—for example, if it is submitted late or is over its word count. Abnormally low tenders can also be disregarded, provided the tenderer has advance notification and the chance to respond, pursuant to subsections (4) and (5).
The changes proposed to clause 43 will ensure that only a material breach of procedural requirements will render a tender unsuitable: for example, being 10 words over the set count should not result in an unsuitable tender permitting direct award. Abnormally low tenders cannot be deemed unsuitable unless the supplier has had an opportunity to demonstrate that it will be able to perform the contract for the price offered, as is required under clause 19.
Moving on to amendment 59, paragraph 2(3) of schedule 10 inserts new section 14(5A) into the Defence Reform Act 2014. The DRA, and the Single Source Contract Regulations 2014 made under it, make provision for the pricing of defence contracts to procure goods, works and services that are not let competitively and meet the necessary criteria, including a financial threshold. New section 14(5A) is being introduced to address uncertainty about when an agreement for new goods, works and services should be regarded as an amendment to an existing contract within the scope of the DRA regime, and when it should be regarded as a new contract in its own right. The proposed new subsection currently addresses the situation by identifying two specific categories of existing contract not subject to the DRA regime that, when amended on a non-competed basis to add further goods, works or services, would become subject to that regime.
A third such category of contract not currently addressed by proposed section 14(5) has subsequently come to light. That category covers a single source contract that was below the financial threshold set by the SSCRs that is subsequently amended to add new goods, works and services that take it above that threshold. Amendment 59 will ensure that such contracts are brought within the regulation-making power. A hypothetical example would be a contract that was let competitively for £6 million a few years ago and was not subject to the regulations, where proposed section 14(5) and section 14(3)(b) —which excludes contracts let through competitions—did not apply, and a single source amendment was subsequently placed a few years later for £10 million of new work. That kind of amendment is referred to in section 14(5), and under the proposed new regulations, it would be treated as a new contract for the purposes of the regulations. Under the current wording of schedule 10, the agreement covering the new work would fall under the regulations.
Amendments 38, 32, 36, 37, 39 to 51, 57 and 58 significantly strengthen the exclusions and debarment provisions for exclusion on national security grounds. As the Bill stands, placing a supplier on the debarment list on national security grounds will make it excludable from all contracts within the scope of the Bill. That means that the supplier will be identified as posing a threat to the national security of the UK, but contracting authorities will have discretion as to whether they exclude the supplier in each particular procurement. Having engaged with colleagues in the House and reflected on their concerns, I can confirm that the Government are content to further strengthen those provisions. The new amendments will enable a Minister of the Crown to take a stronger approach in response to a specific risk profile of a particular supplier and make targeted decisions about whether the debarment should be mandatory for particular types of contracts, depending on the nature of the risk.
Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)
I thank the Minister for the work he has been doing on the Bill, and for listening to colleagues—there is more work to be done, but we are certainly moving in the right direction. There is an issue about dual use stuff: we are talking about national security, but for technology such as cellular modules in Government cars that may or may not be being used by competitor nations to listen in to conversations, it is not just a narrow definition that we should be worried about, but a rather more expansive definition of some of the risks posed by that technology and where it is placed in either very specific national security contexts or, more broadly, among things that are critical to our national infrastructure.
Alex Burghart
I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks, and for the constructive dialogue that we have had while preparing for today’s debate. As he hopefully knows from what we have already said on this subject—he will hear it again in what I am about to say—the structure that we are putting in place will be able to make exactly that sort of assessment.
If a supplier poses an unacceptable risk in relation to certain goods, such as network communications equipment, the Minister will be able to enter on the debarment list that that supplier is an excluded supplier for contracts for the supply or support of that type of equipment, but that will not necessarily mean that the supplier will be excluded from all other types of contract. Similarly, the entry may also—or as an alternative—stipulate that the supplier is excluded from contracts relating to certain locations or sites, or contracts let by certain contracting authorities. That removes discretion from contracting authorities regarding exclusions where a supplier poses a threat for particular contracts, thereby reducing the risk of a supplier being allowed to participate in a procurement when they should not be.
By allowing this type of targeted and proportionate approach, we can direct that suppliers must be excluded where the risks are unacceptable, and allow contracting authorities to make appropriate choices where a risk is manageable—for example, if a supplier is providing pencils or plastic furniture. We think that approach to national security exclusions is both proportionate and robust, and will allow us to effectively counter the risk posed by some suppliers, including those that many in this House are concerned about.
Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)
The Minister has said that he wants a proportionate response and I take that point. I also thank him for the talks we have had about this issue, which is the basis of my support for new clause 1. However, one thing he has not yet addressed is the timescale. Clearly, a lot of kit that we would regard as suspicious under the Bill needs to be removed. Can he give some indication of what sort of timescale we will need to remove it?
Alex Burghart
I thank my right hon. Friend for the constructive conversations that we have had in getting ready for today’s debate. He is slightly pre-empting some remarks that I will come to later. I hope that he saw the announcement that the Government made the other day. It is in the nature of the work that we are doing that, first, we wish to remove devices and components that pose a security risk to sensitive sites—I will say more about the timescale for that later. Secondly, we intend through the use of the unit and the provisions in the Bill to prevent similar devices and components from entering our sites in future. It is a two-part process: first, get rid of what is already there and, secondly, prevent other such services from coming in in future.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
The Minister has mentioned sensitive sites. I do not quite understand what that phrase means—I am hoping that we will get a proper explanation in due course—but what I would observe is that, as far as I can see, every single Government site is by nature and definition sensitive. The Department for Work and Pensions is very sensitive because any disruption of its payments would render the UK in a terrible state. Is it not the case that all Departments of central Government are by nature sensitive sites and, therefore, should take upon themselves the reality that they must all rid themselves of these things?
Alex Burghart
My right hon. Friend makes a good point, and I thank him for his constructive engagement with me and the Minister for the Cabinet Office on this issue. We understand and hear his concerns about sensitive and non-sensitive sites—not least, we understand his view that the definition could incorporate a broader range of assets, where information gleaned on the movement of officials and politicians could be detrimental to our national security. We will continue to work on that issue with him, both in today’s debate and in the Lords debate that will follow it. I am sure that we can reach a sensible conclusion that will be to his satisfaction.
Bob Seely
If I remember correctly, in January, the security services took apart a UK Government vehicle because data was being transferred via a Chinese cellular module, a Chinese eSIM. We do not know who was in that car—whether it was the Defence Secretary or the Prime Minister. Evidence from a separate Tesla car scandal suggests that it would be possible for Chinese engineers to record private conversations using cellular modules. Just out of curiosity—I suspect I know the answer—are we ever going to get an update on what happened to that car and what was happening with it?
Alex Burghart
My hon. Friend will know that I am not in a position to comment on matters of national security, but he will have heard me say in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) that we understand the view that the definition in the Bill could incorporate a broader range of assets, where information is gleaned on the movement of officials and politicians that could be detrimental to national security.
Amendment 34 will commit a Minister of the Crown to keep suppliers under review for potential investigation for debarment on national security grounds. We recognise that proactive consideration of suppliers will be highly advantageous in minimising the risk of suppliers who pose a threat to our national security being awarded public contracts. The amendment will therefore commit Ministers to proactively consider a new debarment investigation where there is evidence of risk, so that the Government can act effectively and on time.
I am also pleased to announce that the Government will be creating a new specialist unit with dedicated resources within the Cabinet Office to take on and manage this new approach. That new national security unit for procurement will regularly monitor Government supply chains and review pertinent information to determine which suppliers should be investigated for debarment on national security grounds. The unit will be able to draw on the full range of expertise within government and access the latest intelligence, including that from Five Eyes partners. It will be able to respond swiftly to emerging threats. The unit will also carry out investigations of suppliers for potential debarment, which will be overseen by a committee. Following the outcome of an investigation, the committee will make recommendations to the Minister as to whether the supplier should be added to the debarment list. The final decision will be made by the Minister.
Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
The Minister is making an excellent speech and I agree with the broad thrust of everything he is saying, but in terms of the practical application—how we debar businesses and organisations bidding in through a procurement process—can he just tell us how long an investigation would take? I realise it would be a case-by-case process, but if a procurement tender is put out, and a business or entity bids into it, how long would it expect that investigation to go on before that business or entity is debarred or not?
Alex Burghart
My hon. Friend will know that is a length of a piece of string question. In setting up the unit and providing it with resource, we are mindful of the need for it to be able to respond swiftly to emerging threats and to new entities. The unit will not serve its purpose if investigations go on too long. I cannot give him any guarantees on maximum length of time for investigation, but I can assure him that those concerns are very much in our thoughts as we go about establishing this new way of working.
The new unit will also have a role in supporting and upskilling contracting authorities. By directly engaging with them and providing guidance, the unit will help contracting authorities confidently implement the national security exclusion and debarment regime correctly, maximising its effectiveness.
Amendments 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 33, 35, 38, 53, 54 and 55 are minor and technical amendments to ensure that the exclusions and debarment regimes can function effectively.
I take this opportunity to thank all colleagues who have engaged with us on this, including my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns), who is not in her place today. She has been instrumental in helping us to formulate these ideas in regard to national security and in particular our commitment to the national security unit for procurement.
The Government are taking national security extremely seriously, as the Bill and the amendments just mentioned make clear. Concerns have been expressed in the House regarding the use of surveillance equipment provided by entities subject to the national intelligence law of the People’s Republic of China, the risks of which we fully understand. I take this opportunity to remind the House that, in November, the Government published a written ministerial statement asking Departments to consider the removal of visual surveillance equipment from Government sensitive sites and to cease any future procurement of such equipment.
Today, we are going further. I commit to this House that, within six months of the Bill’s Royal Assent, the Government will set out the timeline for the removal of surveillance equipment supplied by companies subject to the national intelligence law of China from sensitive sites. I make it clear that we are taking firm and decisive action on this important matter and that we will be held to account for that action. That is why we will provide a clear plan for delivering on it, adhering to the timeline requested by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green. I hope that addresses his and other Members’ wishes that the Government take appropriate action.
If I may, I will address two final points. First, I thank each of the devolved Administrations for their constructive engagement during the drafting and passage of the Bill. I am pleased that the Senedd and the Scottish Parliament have agreed to the procurement aspects of the Bill, which are the vast majority of the clauses. However, despite our best efforts and several amendments, we have been unable to secure full legislative consent motions for the concurrent powers in the Bill relating to the implementation of international obligations. That is disappointing, but not unexpected, given that it is consistent with the position taken by the Scottish and Welsh Governments on the recent Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Act 2023.
I reassure the House that, as with current practice, we will continue to engage and consult with the devolved Administrations if they choose not to legislate for themselves in implementing the UK’s international obligations, in so far as they relate to areas of devolved competence. In the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive, a legislative consent motion for Northern Ireland was not possible. However, the permanent secretary for the Northern Ireland Department of Finance has written to the permanent secretary of the Cabinet Office to welcome the Bill as drafted and the close working relationship that has developed between officials.
Secondly, I take the opportunity to clarify the rules for private utilities where they have been directly awarded rights, for example, through a directly awarded contract at the request of the Department for Transport. Private utilities are within the scope of the Bill only where they have been granted a special or exclusive right to carry out a utility activity, effectively creating a monopoly situation. Clause 6(4) clarifies that the right is not special or exclusive where the right is granted following a competitive tendering procedure under the Bill or otherwise on the basis of a transparent procedure and non-discriminatory criteria. That has the effect, for example, that, if a contract for a utility activity with an incumbent supplier is renewed or replaced without competition, the supplier will have been granted a special or exclusive right. The supplier would therefore be classed as a private utility under the Bill. An example would be where an incumbent train operating company awarded a contract following competition has been directly awarded a new contract under DFT legislation.
Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)
Three years ago, in the aftermath of the covid-19 pandemic, vital frontline staff across our NHS were struggling against dangerously low stocks of personal protective equipment. We all heard the stories of frontline workers in the early stages of the pandemic. These stories show us the impact of not procuring adequate reserves for a pandemic such as covid-19, and they show us why we need the right culture to rapidly respond to emergency procurement demands whenever they may show. Sadly, what we saw during the pandemic did not live up to standards. What followed, with the horror stories of frontline workers in the early stages of 2020, was a case study in wasteful and inefficient emergency procurement.
In January, the National Audit Office found that nearly £15 billion was wasted on unused covid supplies. That is £15 billion that could be going towards tens of thousands of full-time nursery places. It is £15 billion that could be going towards clearing the backlog in our NHS. It is £15 billion that could hand every single person in this country £220 and still have change left over. Instead, the incompetence we saw from this Government cost this country a fortune. In fact, the Government’s record keeping was so flawed that the Public Accounts Committee’s July 2022 report on the awarding of contracts to Randox during the pandemic stated it was
“impossible to have confidence that all its contracts with Randox were awarded properly.”
It is not just incompetence that costs the country. During the pandemic, the Government created a VIP lane for those offering to provide PPE. The system was extremely useful for some suppliers, with the Public Accounts Committee finding that one in 10 suppliers coming through the high-priority lane were awarded a contract. That compares with just one in 100 for the ordinary lane. The Cabinet Office and the Department of Health and Social Care also accepted that leads that went through the high-priority lane were handled better. Who was in that lane?
In the Public Account Committee’s report on PPE procurement, it stated
“The British Medical Association and the Royal College of Nursing told us that their organisations did not have access to the high-priority lane, even though they were being contacted by, and therefore would have been able to put forward, credible leads based on the knowledge of their members. The British Medical Association also noted that suppliers which had contacted them, including suppliers trusted by doctors, tried the normal channels of reaching out to the Government but had ‘hit a brick wall’. Care England told us that it had similarly shared the details of potential suppliers but there had been no follow-through.”
Instead, those with contacts with Government Ministers and officials, MPs and Members of the House of Lords were given access to this VIP lane. That included PPE Medpro, a company set up only a few days before but—surprise, surprise—with links to a Tory politician, which was awarded more than £200 million of public money. In total, £3.4 billion of taxpayers’ money in the form of contracts went to Conservative donors and friends. At a time when we were asking people up and down the country to come outside and clap, the Tory Government were giving cash to their donors. The Bill must be used to ensure that that never happens again.
Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con)
I applaud what the hon. Member is saying about SMEs. She is absolutely right that it is important that we support the small business sector. However, she has tabled amendments that would favour the insourcing of public services. She seems to think that we should require the public sector to deliver public contracts, rather than SMEs. Which is it?
Florence Eshalomi
The hon. Member is absolutely right: those SMEs will work with local councils in a local area, and they know the local area. In some cases the contracts that are outsourced are not value for money. This is about ensuring that, in public contracts, public money is spent in the right way. If we are to lower the risks faced by SMEs seeking to enter the supply chain, it is vital that the measures in the Bill have an impact.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
One of the biggest problems during the pandemic, which came out of China and became a global pandemic, was the question of everybody scraping around trying to find PPE, most of which was manufactured in China. Is it therefore part of the hon. Lady’s argument that we should have strategic manufacturing of PPE—either here or certainly in democracies that we can trust—to which we get earlier access, or will we just leave it to be produced somewhere else?
Florence Eshalomi
I agree with some of the amendments the right hon. Member has tabled on the issue of China and national security. Throughout the Committee stage, we argued consistently for removing risks from countries with a high national security risk, but we have concerns about the approach of naming specific countries in the Bill. It is important that we work with the whole House to get the right framework. I urge the Minister to consider our amendment 17, which is a careful mechanism for assessing the impact of the new rules that he is championing.
Throughout the passage of the Bill, national security has been an issues of extreme interest to the House. On Second Reading, we heard a tour de force from the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns), on national security. In Committee, I raised multiple concerns with the Minister about the place of national security as a discretionary exclusion ground and its role in the debarment system. I am pleased that the Minister was listening to all those points, and we welcome amendment 57 and similar Government amendments, which we believe will address many of the concerns raised in Committee. I welcome the amendments originally tabled by the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton, which will establish a list of high-risk suppliers as part of the Bill. Our amendment 15 would exclude suppliers identified as a security threat from public contracts. Although that offers some benefits over alternative proposals, there is a balance, so we are not minded to press amendment 15 to a Division.
Procurement practices affect not only our services, but the many workers who rely on procurement-related roles for their jobs and livelihoods. Public money, and the jobs that will create, should not be given to those who treat their workers unfairly. Our amendment 18 would give contracting authorities the power to exclude suppliers that have significantly and repeatedly breached the rights of their staff. It would affect only those who have not taken self-cleansing measures to correct their conduct and the causes of breaches. The amendment would ensure that authorities have the right to turn away the worst offenders on workers’ rights, and would ensure that publicly funded jobs are protected jobs.
It can only be right that those seeking public contracts in the UK are transparent about where they pay their tax. The public would not expect their hard-earned money to go to those seeking not to pay into the system themselves, but a study from the Fair Tax Foundation found that, between 2014 and 2019, one in six public contracts were won by companies with links to tax havens. Our new clause 10 would mean that multinational companies bidding for large public contracts need to provide information about their tax arrangements in the UK. That would be open to the public and create greater transparency on how public money is spent. Amendment 16 would create a discretionary exclusion ground for suppliers that have violated UK sanctions or export controls, ensuring that authorities have the power to exclude from the procurement system those who continue to profit off businesses in places such as Russia. New clause 11 would require authorities to undertake a public interest test whenever deciding to outsource public services, to ensure that it truly offers value for money. Finally, new clause 14 would allow public authorities to choose not to buy goods or services from countries on the basis of their human rights records. That would give authorities the power to set clear policies, not to hand public funds to those committing atrocities around the world.
I pay tribute to members of the Committee for their engagement on this very long Bill. We have definitely shone a light on it, and had many discussions about paperclips. In particular, I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Birkenhead (Mick Whitley) and for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle), who embellished the Committee with a wealth of examples of procurement practices from their constituencies. I hope the Minister will listen to us on why additional amendments are important to strengthen the Procurement Bill in the interests of all taxpayers across the country, and I look forward to hearing from other Members.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
I rise to speak to the amendment in my name and those of 26 others in the House of all parties.
The real issue here is the existence of a specific law in China that makes pretty much all companies in China, but particularly those involved in technology, a public risk in procurement to the United Kingdom. Article 7 of the People’s Republic of China national intelligence law 2017 states:
“Any organisation and citizen shall, in accordance with the law, support, provide assistance, and cooperate in national intelligence work, and guard the secrecy of any national intelligence work that they are aware of.”
In other words, under the Chinese national intelligence law, they must completely comply with all demands and requests for information in the business they are in, and deny they have done that to any other country or authority that asks. We have had Chinese companies coming to the House and lying to Select Committees about what they are doing, all saying that they have no obligations under the national intelligence law. They do have obligations under that law and they will lie for their country as a result.
We need to start by understanding the problems, and I thank my hon. and right hon. Friends on the Front Bench for having listened to the arguments and changed the terms, first by referencing the national intelligence law, which is very important, because many Departments will play fast and loose unless what they must do is made very clear. We have been encouraging the Government, who came out with views on Hikvision, Dahua and other companies supplying surveillance equipment to the UK, knowing that they are a surveillance risk not because they are cameras in a particular fashion but because what they glean is available completely to the Chinese authorities under the national security laws.
We have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) about the small devices—a growing threat that I have not referenced but which also gets caught by the national intelligence law. China is leading in this technology, which is one way in which it can keep track of its own people, but they are now using it more broadly. I had a suspicion and heard that the cars that my hon. Friend was referencing were Downing Street cars. There is a very good chance that the Prime Minister and others may have been tracked by the Chinese Government without our knowledge.
We must therefore remember that first and foremost China poses a significant threat to us, our interests and the way we live our lives. Until we all agree and come to those terms, we simply cannot move on; that is the key. Government Departments and the Government have dragged their feet over this because we do not want to upset the Chinese—but it takes a lot to upset the Chinese because they carry on as before. The amendment is intended to get the Government to accept that we should reference the national intelligence law because that defines all Chinese business and companies and therefore they are a threat.
There are other Chinese companies that are a problem that will not be named, and surveillance cameras are part of this. I must confess that when my brother-in-law went around an area of a farm looking at the surveillance cameras, he spotted that they were Hikvision cameras—they are not listed in the contract because the contract provider is a UK organisation, but we discovered that they are everywhere.
Once I heard the news that the Government clearly wanted Departments to get rid of those cameras, I made a set of freedom of information requests to all Departments about whether they had cameras, where they were, whether they were on their buildings, and what plans they had to get rid of them, having spotted that a lot of Departments still had them, including the Ministry of Defence. All Departments—bar I think the Wales Office, which came clean and said it did not have any or was getting rid of them—claimed that, under section 24 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, they did not have to answer because it was a security risk. The security risk is having the cameras, not answering the damned question! Excuse my language, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is all about where the cameras are and what they are doing, and that is the point of the amendment.
I hope that Ministers will take this matter forward and tell Departments to stop obfuscating. If they are asked a direct question they should tell the honest truth and explain that under the new rules under the Bill they will be getting rid of those cameras, which is absolutely critical.
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
The right hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point on national security, particularly the risk posed by this equipment. I credit him and others across the House who have worked to encourage the Government to move on this matter. As well as the national security issue, does he share my concern that companies such as Hikvision are involved in human rights abuses in China, for example with the Uyghur Muslims?
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
I did not send the hon. Lady a copy of my speech but I am glad she has jumped into this because I want to move on to that point now.
Finishing on the point I have been making, however, it is good that the Government are moving on this, but I do not think they have moved enough because I am very worried about the word “sensitive”, which the Minister is talking about. I will come back to that, but this move will begin to bring us into line with the United States, who moved on this under their Hikvision Act, which banned it back in 2019. It is worth reminding colleagues, too, that the European Union is also ahead of us on this now, because the President has said that they must do some “de-risking” on the issue of threats from China. So we are coming back into line on doing that and the west is waking up to this threat.
It is not just about all the threats that are clear under the obligations and the data China collects—it data-harvests, by the way. When the Government said that they were banning TikTok from Government telephones, I made the observation that that is not enough because people might still have TikTok on their own phones. Having run a Department for six years, I know that Ministers’ telephones sit on their desks next to their Government telephones, and therefore the Chinese will be data-harvesting on the back of that. One of my Government colleagues said that he wants to get in touch with the younger people; fat chance they are going to listen to a word they are saying. The truth is he should get rid of TikTok like the rest and be real about it. We must now make it clear that Government telephones and the telephones of Ministers should no longer have TikTok.
Damian Green
I am glad that my right hon. Friend has moved this amendment, which as he knows I strongly support. To return to my point about timescale, security cameras are normally replaced every five to seven years. Does he think we have five to seven years in which we can leave these cameras in place in public sector buildings, or would he like their removal to be accelerated?
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
The Cabinet Office must now decide the pace of this change. I hear that it is talking about six months and will come forward with a clear and explicit decision. In line with what my right hon. Friend has just said, it ought to explain the timescales for how Departments are going to take them away and how quickly, and an endpoint. That is critical, because otherwise, as I saw with the FOIs, Government Departments will do whatever they can not to do this because they are frightened and they say it will cost them extra. What really costs us is if they fail to do it.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
On telecoms, not TikTok in this instance. According to reports last week, the UK telecoms arm of CK Hutchison, 3 mobile, is merging with Vodafone. Vodafone is extensively involved in Government contracts and evidence by Unite the union published this week is basically saying that CK directors supported the suppression of democracy in Hong Kong. In fact, the chair of the company, Victor Li Tzar-kuoi, is adviser to the Hong Kong Chief Executive. The right hon. Gentleman knows that John Lee, the Chief Executive, has been involved in the suppression of protests and in the arrest of trade union colleagues of mine, members of Unite. Does he share my concern that people linked to this company now are going to have access to Government contracts in the UK?
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
That is not the subject of the amendment but I will touch on it briefly. I have already spoken to the unions on this and I am very much in line with their position. The Government need to look very carefully at what has taken place, particularly because it reduces competition in the market. The links to the authoritarianism of the Chinese is one of the big worries, so I suggest that the Government have a serious look at that.
Returning to the point made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman), these cameras are also being used in internal suppression in China. We know about the suppression of the Uyghurs; that is a genocide that is taking place. Even though the Government will not say it is genocide, everybody else believes it is: Parliament here has said it; the Americans have now said it; and so, too, have many other countries. I do not know why we cannot say this is genocide, but that is a question for another debate. The fact is that many of these instruments are being used as part of that suppression in the camps as well as to watch carefully so that suppression can take place. Right now, forced labour, forced sterilisation and re-education in camps are all taking place in China.
The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) referred from the Dispatch Box to the Opposition’s amendments. It is worth reminding her that China poses a risk in just about every single area with its human rights abuses and abuses of workers’ rights, yet so many of our companies want to ignore that.
While I welcome much of what the Government have done, I do not plan to move new clause 1 today, but only because I want more from the Government. I think they understand that.
I come back to the “sensitive” point. The truth is that, by definition, all Government Departments must be sensitive. As I said, I spent six years in charge of the DWP, and what I know is that there is arguably no more sensitive Department, because stopping payments for one or two days from the DWP would wreak havoc across the United Kingdom. People would not be able to get money to pay their rent, to buy their food or to live—all those things of vital importance. So a foreign power might be able to use information to target a Department such as the DWP that is not on the list because it may not appear as sensitive as the Ministry of Defence, GCHQ or—God bless us—the Foreign Office, when in reality, it is much more sensitive.
When we try to use a word like “sensitive” to give ourselves a little bit of a break, the problem becomes: who defines sensitive, and how often we will redefine it? I recommend that the Government describe all Departments as sensitive or else get rid of the word. That would put the onus on the Departments to come to the Cabinet Office to say, “We need an exemption for a period” or, “We can’t do this as fast.” The current wording means that they will not have to do that if they are outwith the term “sensitive.”
The reality is that we have had a number of Dispatch Box commitments from a load of Government Ministers about interpreting these things, but they never come to fruition. We were promised guidance in the other place on slavery during the passage of the Nationality and Borders Bill, but that was never put in. We really want the Government to commit at the Dispatch Box to changing what they are doing with “sensitive” when the Bill goes to the other place. “Sensitive” is too weak a position. It lets Departments off the hook and will put all the onus on the Cabinet Office. That must be reversed to ensure that this removal gets done.
Kirsty Blackman
I really appreciate the right hon. Member giving way again. Would he consider asking the Government for removal from all sites and, when they produce their timeline, to have them say, “These are our priority sites, which will be done first, but there will be removal from all sites off the back of that”? That would cover removal from all sites but allow the Government to prioritise if they cannot do things overnight.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
I agree that that would be the common-sense way of doing it; I think we are all on the same page on this one.
The thing about our new clause is that, without the word “sensitive”, the position is simple. The new clause uses the same language as the Cabinet Office’s announcement in November, which recommended the removal of Chinese CCTV from sensitive sites. Now, that was the wording. Okay. But when we ask, “What has happened? How many Departments have felt under pressure to do that?”, we start to discover that they are not doing it because it is too difficult, and they want the requirement to go away. My answer is: do not use the word “sensitive” in that respect. It is about national security law, and Government Departments must either be completely defined as “sensitive”—if we want to use that word—or be bound to rid themselves of all companies obligated under the national security law. If they are unable to do that, they must make their case so that we can question that publicly and comment about what is going on.
I conclude on this simple point. The new clause is there to try to make it clear that we face a most significant and dangerous threat from the Chinese Communist party in control of China today. It is everywhere. It is using slave labour to produce polysilicon to collect solar rays. We all beat our chests proudly and proclaim that we are heading towards net zero, but on whose backs is that? It is people working in slave labour conditions to produce these things, people under surveillance, and people taken away on genocides. A Government already doing this internally are now referring it out to us. We must make it clear beyond peradventure that Government Departments must now rid themselves of equipment and never place contracts with other companies on equipment that comes under the rule of the national security law. I am looking for commitments from the Government today that, by the time the Bill gets to the other place, that will finally be resolved. If so, they will have my approval and that of many others in the Chamber.
Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
I rise to speak in favour of a number of new clauses and amendments to improve transparency and accountability regarding public procurement and providing value for money for the taxpayer, including those tabled by Labour Front-Bench Members. The House will be aware that trade unions and others have long raised concerns that existing procurement policy pushes public authorities to privatise and marketise public services, including through private finance initiative contracts, which allow private consortiums to make high profits out of public assets—often far above the true value of the asset.
A particularly controversial element of procurement policy has been the use of private finance initiative regimes in NHS contracts. The evidence is clear that many of them have left NHS trusts heavily in debt owing to the need to repay private companies for capital assets, with high repayments meaning that some NHS trusts pay 12 times the initial sum borrowed, giving some investors profits of 40% to 70% in annual returns. Indeed, the poor performance of many of the private outsourcing and consulting companies brought in at significant cost to the taxpayer to provide parts of the covid-19 response stood in stark contrast to the consistently proven effectiveness of our publicly run NHS, for example, but that did not stop more and more contracts being awarded to those seeking to make money off the back of our country’s worst health crisis. Amendment 2, which would prevent VIP lanes by ensuring that any contract awarded under emergency provisions or direct awards should include transparency declarations, is therefore critical.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
The hon. Lady has just described PFI contracts in harsh terms, and she is now going on to procurement. Will she explain why the vast majority of those PFI contracts for hospitals, medical facilities and schools were awarded under the last Labour Government?
Apsana Begum
The problem has existed through successive Governments. However, I recognise it through my NHS trust, which is still paying sums that are much higher than the true value of the assets. It has been a problem under successive Governments, and the Tory Government have had years to sort it out if they had wanted to do so.
The Bill does not exclude private companies from getting contracts even where they are failing to abide by international labour law and other environmental standards. I therefore support amendment 4, which would ensure that no public contract would be let unless the supplier guaranteed payment of the real living wage, as calculated and overseen by the Living Wage Commission, to all employees, contracted staff and subcontractors. That is critical because about 4.8 million workers across the country are paid less than the real living wage.
There are a number of amendments and new clauses relating to national security. Indeed, we have heard a lot about national security in the debate. I want to mention briefly the victims of the brutal repression in Hong Kong, some of whose architects may shortly become suppliers to the Government, as mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). Recent years have seen curbs on the work of trade unions, the jailing of protestors and arrests of independent media outlets. The Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions was persecuted until it was dissolved. Many of its affiliates had been involved in industrial action, including a successful 2013 dock strike for pay and conditions at Hongkong International Terminals, owned by the Hong Kong-based CK Group.
Hon. Members may wonder what relevance this has to a debate about Government procurement in this country, The Minister will no doubt be aware that Vodafone is a so-called strategic supplier to the Government and an approved supplier on two framework agreements, providing a range of telecoms services, including mobile voice and data services. As such, Vodafone has an official Crown representative, appointed by the Cabinet Office, who liaises with it on behalf of the Government.
Bob Seely
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Apsana Begum), and I think that some of the things she said will be echoed on the Government Benches.
I want to speak, in the time I have, to new clauses 1, 13 and 16, and I will try to theme them. Before I do so, I want to thank the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart), for his excellent work on the Bill. People moan about Parliament, but we have a Government bringing forward this legislation and Back-Bench MPs from across the House trying to shape it for the betterment of the nation. There is a lot of good in the Bill and I thank the Minister for listening, as he has clearly and obviously done.
I want to talk about the strategic, political and human rights ramifications of supply chain dependency. I thank the Government for their excellent work and the fact that they are moving on this. We will have a national procurement centre, which will look at high-risk firms not only from China but potentially elsewhere. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) and my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) on their really good work on this.
However, my criticism is that while the Bill is a start, the new clauses that I am speaking to would allow us to go further, and I want to explain why that is. We urgently need to understand the UK’s economic dependence on systemic threats or competitors—namely China, but not only China—and the political, economic and ethical ramifications and risks of that dependency. Not to do so is to betray our national interests. I am concerned at the lack of urgency on this issue, which has become significantly more pressing in the last five years. I thank the Government for focusing more on it, but more needs to be done. I think we are at the starting gate. The reality is that we have high levels of dependency and they are increasing, not decreasing.
Here are some facts. First, as an act of state policy, China is aiming to become less dependent on others, while encouraging others to be more dependent on it. It is decoupling from us, but making sure that we are coupled to it. The Made in China 2025 plan had the goal of raising the domestic content of China’s core components and materials to 70% by 2025. In 2020, it set a goal to become largely self-sufficient in technology by 2035. At the same time, the belt and road initiative means that China is now the largest lender to developing countries and is effectively encouraging debt dependency, which we have talked about in the past. President Xi, at the seventh session of the Chinese Communist party’s finance and economy committee, said that China must develop “killer technologies” to strengthen the
“global supply chain’s dependence on China”.
So this is not a case of, “Gosh, is this happening?” It is stated policy. We do not need to debate whether it is happening; we are being told by the leader of the Chinese state and the Chinese Communist party that it is.
China is already the largest importer to the UK and many other countries. We import more than 50% of our supplies from China in 229 categories of goods. Some 57 of those categories are in sectors critical to the UK’s national security. I therefore agree entirely with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green was saying only a few minutes ago. It is difficult to say what is strategic and what is not. In the US, it might be agricultural production. Here it might be the details of 20 million people on the DWP’s databanks. The 57 categories of goods cover communications, energy, healthcare, transport, critical manufacturing, emergency services, agriculture, Government facilities and information technology.
I do not care that we are 85% dependent on China for plastic Christmas trees—although, I do worry about the environmental impact—but I do care that we are 96% dependent on China for phenylacetic acid, which is a basic building block for many drugs; 83% dependent for TV receivers and decoders; and 68% dependent for laptops. China controls near 90% of rare earth processing, which we are now beginning to worry about. And the point about solar panels was well made.
I asked the Foreign Secretary yesterday about having an annual statement on dependency, not just on China but on states in general. He said that one was not needed. With great respect to the Foreign Secretary, I profoundly disagree. We argued during the passage of the National Security and Investment Act 2021 that we need an annual statement of dependency. New clause 13 is about establishing an understanding of the nature of our extreme dependency. I did a report with the Henry Jackson Society a couple of years ago. We found that although we are the least dependent of all the Five Eyes nations, we still have a critical dependency on China in 230 areas of our industry, manufacturing, information technology and so on.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
Just to add to my hon. Friend’s list, as we move to electric vehicles we are about to make ourselves even more dependent. Even battery factories in China are turning themselves into car factories selling to the UK.
Bob Seely
I agree completely and I thank my right hon. Friend for that point. I would not even like that dependency on our allies. Would I like that level of dependency on the United States? No. On Australia? No. But to have that level of dependency on a Communist dictatorship that is investing massively in AI and big data to spy on their own people and increasingly on us as never before, to threaten peace in the Pacific, and to have a stated aim of dominating while freeing itself from dependency on the west, is really an extraordinarily dangerous position for us to find ourselves in.
We know that Chinese Communist party companies such as Huawei actively seek to gain a monopoly position by systematically destroying economic rivals. That is not fair trade; it is trade as a weapon for a Communist party dictatorship. It did it with Huawei, undercutting and deliberately destroying rivals on price through cheap subsidies. It is now doing the same with cellular modules, seeking to dominate and take control of the market. It does that through IP theft, economic espionage, subsidy, access to super-cheap finance, shared technology and other forms of state support.
Companies such as Quectel and Fibocom—the manufacturers of cellular modules—will, like Huawei, claim to be private. They are not. Nothing is private, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green said, in a Communist state. It was profoundly depressing for me, a couple of years ago, to hear two former senior Conservative Ministers, who should know better, say that Huawei was a private company. That is a rather more serious way of accidentally misleading the House than whether somebody ate cake or not, but that is another matter.
What are the dangers? We know that the Chinese leadership see themselves as being in competition with the west. Why? Because they tell us. A 2013 “Document No. 9” concludes that western constitutional democracy and universal values were a fundamental threat to the PRC. Of course our values are a threat to dictatorships. Our values are always a threat to communists. Earlier this year, a work report delivered to the National People’s Congress set out the belief that
“external attempts to supress and contain China are escalating”,
and the term “self-reliance” appeared multiple times. Again, the idea is to create dependency on China for us, while at the same time freeing China from dependency.
What is the worst-case scenario? Frankly, it has happened in Russia, so we should at least be alive to the idea that the worst-case scenario may be happening in the Pacific.
President Xi has told his army to be ready to re-take Taiwan by 2027. As I said, let us please stop pretending that dictators do not mean what they say, because they have a depressing habit of meaning what they say. I wish they did not; I wish they would overpromise and underdeliver, but they tend to do what they promise.
Either the UK is militarily involved or it is not. Either way, an assault on Taiwan, either by slow strangulation—a sort of Berlin scenario—or direct invasion, would profoundly alter the state of the world. We would have to put on the mother of all sanctions. The minute we do that, we will risk not only a global economic meltdown, but an economic meltdown probably worse than covid. It will strain to breaking point our relationship with the United States, the European Union and Australia—and not just our relationship but the interdependent relationships.
I am not saying that will happen—although, I think we are heading in that direction—or that we should stop trading with China; I am saying that it makes a great deal of common sense, frankly, to know what our levels of dependency are. That is why I would love the Minister to commit to at least developing an understanding of what our trade dependency is.
There is another reason to be concerned about supply chains: what is happening in the Xinjiang Uyghur autonomous region, which other Members have rightly mentioned. A 2022 UN report found serious human rights violations in the region. They seem to be about the most significant human rights abuses currently happening in the world, whether we use the “G” word or not—genocide. The Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps alone produces 8% of the world’s cotton. China overall produces 20% of the world’s supply of cotton. Effectively, this is a new slave trade in cotton, as shocking as that sounds. It is not happening 200 hundred years, in the 19th century, in the southern United States; it is happening now, in the early 21st century, in Chinese-controlled central Asia.
There are many other things coming out of the Xinjiang province that tell the story of using forced labour, as both Opposition and Government Members have eloquently spoken about. There is forensic technology available, which we could be using in this country, that can pinpoint the region of origin for items tainted by modern slavery, such as cotton. When it comes to new clause 60, on eradicating slavery and human trafficking in supply chains, I ask the Government to set an example by saying that we will, at the very least, commit—a good Government word—to bringing in that forensic technology within a period of time. That would enable us to understand whether western companies are using slave cotton—an incredibly horrible phrase to use in this age—in their manufactured goods.
Finally, we have spoken about Chinese surveillance technology, and I speak again in support of new clause 1. We have got to get this stuff out of the country for a start. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green says, with all the dual-use capabilities and new styles of conflict, not just in conventional military but in data domination, it is really difficult nowadays to say where security starts and finishes.
In summation, we need to understand, as a critical matter of national importance, our supply chain dependency on any country, but specifically China. I implore the Government to use the Bill, even at this late stage, to bring in a statement of dependency so that we can begin to understand and to take measures to work out not how to stop trading with China, but how to trade more safely. That way, if we need to take sanctions in future, and for the health of our relationship with that superpower, we can begin to work out how to diversify our supply chains in future and, at the same time, do something about the horrors happening in Xinjiang.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
I rise to speak to my new clause 12 on the protection of subcontractors’ payments under construction contracts. As the explanatory statement describes, the new clause
“ring-fences moneys due to subcontractors in construction supply chains through mandating the use of project bank accounts and ensuring that retention moneys are safeguarded in a separate and independent account.”
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
I will speak primarily to new clause 1, in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), my name and those of other right hon. and hon. Members.
I have a deal of sympathy with some of the points raised by other Members, not least those eloquently put by my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) about trafficking and supply chain risks, as well as those to do with organ harvesting, which all feed back to the subject of China. I appreciate the good work of the Minister, who has listened to some of the representations made, particularly by those of us who have continued grave concerns about the influence of China and its insidious involvement in so many aspects of our society.
We appreciate and are grateful for what has happened so far, but it does not go far enough. That is why I want to speak to some of the themes raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green and reinforce how this can only be a staging point and not the end result of what we need to achieve. We very much hope that these provisions will be greatly strengthened in another place.
The new clause that we propose is not extreme or prescriptive. It asks for a serious and realistic timeline, not a completely open-ended one. It passed with a comfortable majority in the House of Lords. It would require the Government to publish a timetable within six months of the Bill receiving Royal Assent for the removal from the UK procurement supply chain of Chinese technology camera companies that are subject to the national intelligence law of People’s Republic of China. It would catch Hikvision and Dahua Technology cameras that are currently in use across the UK public procurement supply, including in NHS trusts, schools, police forces, jobcentres, prisons, military bases and many local council buildings.
Human Rights Watch has found that Hikvision is one of the principle Chinese companies involved in the construction of the Chinese surveillance state and the camps that house over a million Uyghurs in Xinjiang, as we have heard. A recent report by Big Brother Watch found that about 2,000 public bodies in the UK—some 61%—currently use Hikvision and Dahua surveillance cameras. Other public bodies that have confirmed, in response to freedom of information requests, that they use those cameras include more than 73% of local authorities, more than 63% of schools, more than 66% of colleges, 54% of higher education bodies, 35% of UK police forces, and more than 60% of NHS trusts. There have also been subsequent reports that Hikvision cameras are being used on UK military bases.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. May I return him to the procurement point about what is national security and what is not? He will know, as I do, that if we go to Hong Kong we can see that HSBC, for instance, is already, in a way, in league with the authorities. The changes it is imposing include freezing the pension funds of people who are over here under British National (Overseas) passports and, at times, freezing their bank accounts. It says that it has to obey the Chinese Government. Is that not what we are saying? There is no particular definition. They are all operating, once these companies are in China, under the rule.
Tim Loughton
My right hon. Friend is, of course, right. He and I and others in this place who have been sanctioned in China and beyond have drawn attention to how effectively respectable global British companies are becoming complicit in the suffocation of the democratic principles, freedoms, liberties and rule of law that we all take for granted, and they need to answer for it. Are they on the side of the rule of law, of international freedoms and liberties in all the areas we have described, or have they thrown in their lot for a mess of pottage—or whatever we want to call it—with the Chinese Communist Government, notwithstanding their complete abrogation of any pretence to democratic accountability and freedoms for the individuals who not only happen to live within its borders but against whom they are increasingly able to extend their tentacles globally, not least in this country?
Hikvision and Dalua are both subject to China’s National Intelligence Law, which stipulates that
“any organisation or citizen shall support, assist, and cooperate with state intelligence work according to law”.
The law also permits authorities to detain or criminally punish those who “obstruct” intelligence activities. The presence of vendors who are subject to extrajudicial directions from a foreign Government which conflict with UK law may risk failure by the carrier to adequately protect networks from unauthorised access or interference.
In the UK, Uyghur people face a sustained campaign of transnational repression in the form of threats, harassment, cyberattacks, and online and in-person surveillance. LBC and the Financial Times have recently reported instances of Uyghur people seeking refuge in the UK being offered thousands of pounds a month and blackmailed by Chinese security officers to spy on Uyghur advocates. In that context, the Government must take seriously the threat posed by the presence of this equipment to British national security and the safety of exiled and dissident populations seeking refuge in the United Kingdom. Without urgent action, the UK risks facilitating a system of surveillance designed to extend Chinese domestic policy across borders.
The evidence, which is presented by reputable sources such as IVPM, Axios, The Intercept, The Guardian and the BBC, is deeply troubling. These and other reports paint a harrowing picture of the situation in Xinjiang and provide substantial evidence of Hikvision’s involvement. IVPM’s investigation reveals that Hikvision, a leading provider of surveillance technology, has actively contributed to the surveillance state in Xinjiang, where more than a million Uyghurs are estimated to be held in what we now know to be internment camps. Hikvision’s technology is reportedly used to monitor and control the Uyghur population, facilitating its repression. Worse, it is credibly accused of constructing the surveillance state in Xinjiang in close partnership with the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps, a report corroborated by The Guardian, which published leaked documents outlining Hikvision’s close collaboration with Chinese authorities in developing and implementing surveillance technologies in Xinjiang. The evidence suggests a concerted effort by Hikvision to profit from this oppression.
Axios, in its comprehensive reporting, explains that Hikvision’s surveillance cameras are integrated with sophisticated artificial intelligence systems to track, profile and identify individuals in Xinjiang. Let me be clear: this technology is trained to recognise Uyghur-looking faces with a view to profiling them, flagging them when they are doing things of which the Chinese Government do not approve, and then facilitating their persecution through mass surveillance and control with the aim of suppressing their cultural, religious, and political freedoms.
The scale and sophistication of Hikvision’s surveillance technology exacerbate the already dire human rights situation in the region. The Intercept’s exposé provides damning evidence that Hikvision’s technology has been directly used in the internment camps, enabling the Chinese Government to monitor and suppress the Uyghur population. One source revealed that Hikvision’s cameras were installed throughout the camps, capturing every move and expression of the detainees. This raises alarming questions about the company’s complicity in the perpetration of human rights abuses that our own Government have described as
“torture…on an industrial scale”.
The evidence leaves no room for doubt. Hikvision’s involvement in the surveillance and control of the Uyghur population in Xinjiang is deeply troubling, and, even without the security concerns so ably highlighted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green, would warrant the company’s removal from our supply chains, consistent with our modern-day slavery commitments. We cannot turn a blind eye to the suffering of millions of innocent people, and help those who persecute them fill their pockets with public money.
Bob Seely
I have a genuine question for my hon. Friend, who is making a brilliant speech, and for the Minister. Given Hikvision’s frankly repugnant role in the ethnically based oppression of an entire people, why on earth is it not covered by our Modern Slavery Act 2015 and how did we let such a repugnant company into this country under any guise?
Tim Loughton
My hon. Friend poses a very good question. Whether it is on moral grounds, on the basis of what this House has voted for in the past or on the basis of legislation that is topical in many areas around modern day slavery at the moment, we should not be anywhere near that company or similar companies. Our Government, our public bodies and our procurement agencies need to take much more notice of what Governments do and say. Much more must be done, and urgently so.
It is incumbent on the House to call for a comprehensive investigation into Hikvision’s activities and its complicity in the suspected atrocities against the Uyghurs. We must work alongside our international partners to hold Hikvision and the Chinese Government accountable for their actions. Most importantly, we should use the purchasing power that we have as a Government and the interest we have in public bodies to disincentivise companies from behaving in the way Hikvision has towards the Uyghurs. At the moment, we are not merely failing to hold these companies to account; we are actually making them richer. The Government’s decision to remove Chinese state-owned surveillance at sensitive sites is welcome, but not sufficient. The widespread use of Hikvision equipment by police forces, hospitals and local councils risks providing malign states—
Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. He has set out an alarming set of issues around the extensive use of this surveillance equipment across various sectors. I know that the Government are listening, so if they were to go ahead as he suggests, should they not, in a parallel way, also ensure that the capacity to fill the gap is there and incentivise other companies to fill it?
Tim Loughton
I do not wish to alarm my hon. Friend, but I am afraid that what we have heard is alarming. The trouble is that it is true. It is based on evidence and the sources that I have given.
We have to achieve a balance here, but we need to show greater urgency to dispel the current installations that we have. We need to ensure that they are replaced with reliable equipment from trusted sources as a matter of urgency. It is that urgency that we are not seeing. My hon. Friend the Minister said that within six months the Government would produce this list—a limited list of action that they are going to take. They could come up with a timeline that is still several years away. That is not realistic or sending out the right messages, and we can and need to do far better.
The widespread use of Hikvision equipment by those different agencies risks providing malign states with a back entrance into UK security and imposing an unwanted reliance on those countries. By contrast, the White House has taken a strong stance on those companies by refusing to support Chinese companies that undermine the security or values of the United States and its allies. Embracing and reasoning would allow the UK Government to be consistent with their commitment to protecting core national security interests and democratic values. That is why this new clause is so important. I hope that the Minister will respond positively to that and give us a reassurance and an offer, if we are not taking the new clause to a vote today. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green has rather let the cat out of the bag by saying that he will not press his new clause to a vote. If that is the case, more has to be done in the other place. We need much tougher measures than we have seen so far, because I am afraid that the Chinese are laughing at our failure to treat this with the seriousness and urgency that it requires.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
I rise to speak to a number of amendments. It is worth highlighting that the bread and butter of the work of the Public Accounts Committee, which I have the privilege of chairing, is looking at procurement—failed procurement in particular—and making sure that we get on the record and into the brain of Whitehall the lessons learned from those failures. We have also been at the forefront of looking at procurement during covid, and we did our first inquiries into that as early as June 2020. I want to place on record my thanks for the hard work of the National Audit Office, which immediately pivoted to online working to enable us to continue our scrutiny of the Government as a cross-party parliamentary Committee.
John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)
The hon. Lady is being very complimentary about an amendment that I tabled and she kindly signed to show cross-party support. Does she agree not only that the cost of evaluation is a rounding error but that the savings from weeding out dud contracts early would dwarf any possible cost? In any case, we already have a network of so-called what works centres, which are arm’s length, independent bodies that have been doing precisely this for ages. The problem is that they cover only about 8% of all that we buy, but they are already in place, so the additional marginal cost would be even smaller.
Dame Meg Hillier
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Of course, if evaluation is built in from the beginning, the company that has been contracted to do the work would be required to collect data. They will say that that involves more cost but, over time, it would wash out. We need a better standard of data collection on all sorts of issues.
Take the example of a contractor that was asked to run a prison. The Government provided data on the prison’s maintenance, but the data was not right as it did not count the number of windows and toilets, and so on, that needed to be fixed, so the company had to come in and count them. In that case, the company had not banked on prisoners breaking more windows than the average in other buildings. There is lots of data, and we keep pushing for it to be collected, and that data could be built into evaluations.
The hon. Gentleman is bang on about making sure we do not send good money after bad. If something is not working, we need the evidence and the political courage, sometimes, to end the contract. We need to make sure that the people delivering a contract are clear that they are delivering the contract’s aims. Evaluation should have the impact of tightening procurement, tightening the management of contracts by the civil service and sharpening up those who bid for contracts to do a better job and to be proud of that job, in the knowledge that doing a good job may well mean that the contract is extended, but not if they do not do a good job. We should also reward good behaviour. I am keen to hear what the Minister has to say about that.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge) tabled amendments that would ensure that organisations involved in nefarious activities are excluded from public procurement. It is extraordinary that companies that are making money in nefarious ways can bolster their activity and give themselves credibility through public procurement. Others have talked a lot about the issues around China, so I will not go into that much more. My right hon. Friend has a strong reputation in this area, and her amendments speak for themselves.
We do not want to miss this opportunity. I recognise that not everything in procurement is about legislation. It would give me some comfort, as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, if the Minister showed that that is being thought about a bit more deeply across Whitehall.
Danny Kruger
This has been a very interesting debate, veering from grand geopolitics to the sourcing of public services and paperclips. All of this is, in a sense, the responsibility of an independent country, so the debate is one benefit of Brexit, for which I am sure we are all very grateful.
I am pleased with the Bill and the Government amendments. I think of it as the patriotic Procurement Bill, which is exactly what we need. I particularly welcome the explicit commitment to national security that has been added to the Bill, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) and for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), and my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), for their work and their contributions today. I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) for his tremendous speech about the dangers we face from a more hostile China.
In the Government amendments, and in Government policy in general, we see a necessary new realism in UK policy. Security is the new watchword of our times, and to me it means much more than defence against hostile states. We face all sorts of other threats to our security, including, as my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight mentioned, our extreme dependence on supply chains around the world, not only but particularly those in hostile states.
Conservative Members tend to regard “protecting” and “subsidising” domestic industry as dirty words and unorthodox policies. Nevertheless, we see around the world a growing tide of tariff barriers and domestic subsidies. Our great friends in the United States have committed to spending $500 billion on domestic manufacturers, particularly to wean themselves off Chinese imports. I welcome the Prime Minister’s commitments this week to a new US-UK economic collaboration arrangement to secure our common interests and to ensure that we have safe supply chains. We will need to rely more on our allies in future.
As we move from a just-in-time procurement model, we need to recognise, particularly on this side of the House, the role of Government in ensuring economic security. The fact is that £300 billion a year makes the Government the biggest player in the UK economy. As we have heard today, and I pay tribute to the speeches made by Opposition Members, the Government are often not very good at procurement and spending public money for public goods. We could go into the sources and origins of that, but we should recognise that since the late 1990s, and under the Blair and Brown Governments in particular, the model of new public management has created a new doctrine of how Government money should be spent on private sector providers. The principle of introducing internal markets—the purchaser-provider split—was an attempt to ensure greater efficiency, greater value for money and greater responsiveness to the users of public services, and it engendered all sorts of difficulties, too. The hon. Members for Poplar and Limehouse (Apsana Begum) and for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) listed some of them, and I recognise them from my previous work. Providers have to jump through really bureaucratic processes.
There is a concentration of big suppliers. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green has done a lot of good work, although he did not speak about it today, on the importance of SME procurement. Large charities in particular can game the system, in the way that large companies can, to secure Government contracts. The Government often do not buy the best; they buy the service that gives commissioners the least risk. Those suppliers often run rings around Government. In the way services are designed and delivered, we see cost deferrals, with payment pushed back beyond the budget cycle; cost shunting, with different parts of the public sector having to carry the cost for a bad contract; the creaming of the high-value, low-cost clients or services; and the parking of high-cost, low-value services. So the providers, whether they are charitable or commercial, game the system. We see that all time, so all this needs improvement and this Bill takes important steps towards ensuring that.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
I am fascinated by the speech my hon. Friend is making, because he is right in one sense about this. We did a report at the Centre for Social Justice about four or five years ago where we looked at productivity. So often we make international comparisons, but the whole figure for productivity contains that which a country wants to put into it. For example, France does not put health or education into its productivity measures. Health and education have shocking productivity outcomes in terms of cost, which means that France is able to declare itself as having a higher level of productivity. London and the south-east have the highest productivity in Europe, but the real story is that the rest of the UK does not meet the average for the whole of the Europe, which tells us what our problem really is.
Danny Kruger
My right hon. Friend makes important points, and I recognise the difficulty of comparing our productivity figures with those of other countries. The comparison I am making is with our own recent history, but he is absolutely right in what he says. Indeed, the point about what is measured matters enormously. In our debates, we often make the mistake of thinking that the only things that matter are those that can be easily quantified. That is a great challenge we face, particularly in the social sector.
The Government are rightly committed to improving the efficiency and productivity of the public services—I absolutely support them on that—but we face another great challenge that does not get enough of a mention: the need to reduce demand on the system as a whole. We are spending so much not just because we are inefficient, but because the demand on the system is so high. I do not need to run through all the details of the enormous budgets we spend on social breakdowns and the consequences of social problems that we should have averted, in criminal justice, in the health budget, in what is called “social protection”. Some £150 billion is categorised under “social protection” in the public finances—not pensions, but paying for people who have tough lives. We should be seeking to reduce the cost of those budgets, because each one of those costs represents, in a sense, people in trouble. Both for financial and social reasons, we should be trying to reduce that expenditure.
How do we do that? We need social reform. I am not going to bore the House with long thoughts on that, but we need public sector reform, as has been mentioned a bit today, and that includes procurement reform. I acknowledge what Labour is suggesting in some of its amendments and in some of the speeches we have heard: an objection to the whole model of outsourcing. I recognise the objections to some of the failures of public service management—new public management—over the past generation, and some of the challenges of outsourcing and of competition in the public sector or for public services. However, I do not think insourcing everything is the answer. Reverting to a pre-1990 model of everything being delivered by the central state, as one of the amendments and Unison are championing, is not the right model. We need a better model of outsourcing that relies much more on civil society and, in particular, on the local, community-based services in which the UK is so rich and which do such a great job. We need to be able to measure their value properly and commission their services effectively. That is what this Bill aims to do.
I declare an interest, in that I set up and ran for many years projects working in prisons and with youth services. I have personal acquaintance with the challenge of EU procurement, not only social fund commissioning, but central and local government contracts. None of this is easy and I am familiar with all of that. I am familiar with the frustrations of getting on the frameworks; expressing interest; bidding through tenders; and being treated as bid candy on a long contract. I am also familiar with going through a pointless competition process where there is only one obvious provider—the one that helped to design the service—which still has to jump through loads of competitive hoops only for some other random provider to come in and swipe the contract; I speak bitterly from experience. The challenges that small social enterprises face are significant.
The difference between procurement and commissioning is not often acknowledged. We often have procurement departments doing work that is too complicated for them on their own. We need to have proper commissioning where people who are paying for a service work collaboratively with providers, stakeholders, service users and other parts of the system. Everybody needs to bring their assets, resources, skills and experience to co-design the service that is needed locally. The Bill brings us much closer to that model. I greatly welcome the measures that have been included, especially around the simplification of tendering. The single portal is an important development and it is good for transparency as well. The Tell Us Once registration is essential, as is the help that will be given to SMEs and social enterprises, including the active reduction in the barriers to tendering, lower reporting requirements and so on.
Most of all there is the shift from the most economically advantageous regime to the most advantageous regime. That small excision of the word “economically” is an important recognition of the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) was just making about the need to go beyond a purely commercial estimation of the value of social projects. I would go further. In 2020, I wrote a report for the Government who were trying to maximise and sustain the enormous contributions that communities were making during the first lockdown. I suggested that we recognise and declare that the whole of Government commissioning—the whole of public service spending—is to deliver social value for the public. Essentially, that is what we all believe and it should be stated much more explicitly in my view. I just bring the House’s attention back to the Conservative Government’s Social Value Act 2012, which gets those principles right.
I recognise that we need to take enormous steps forward. I honour what the Government have been doing around national security. I also honour the steps that have been taken to ensure greater opportunities for SMEs and social enterprises, and I commend the Bill to the House.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I wish to associate myself with the remarks made by hon. and right hon. Members across the House about the dangers of sourcing from high-risk countries and parts of countries and those implicated in serious human rights abuses. The appalling persecution of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang is a very powerful case in point that has been echoed by many Members around the House, and I agree very strongly with that.
I rise to speak to amendment 60 and new clause 17. I welcome the provisions in the Bill that aim to help small and medium-sized enterprises to access public contracts. SMEs are often best placed to meet the needs of the communities in which they operate, providing numerous social and economic benefits. Those benefits, often referred to as a social value, cannot simply be reduced to a tick-box exercise. Nor can we allow social value to amount only to crumbs of compensation from corporate giants, while they extract wealth from our communities. Wider economic, social and environmental priorities need to be built in from the start of every procurement process.
The UK spends about £300 billion a year on public procurement. We could question whether that is a good thing. That has already been hinted at—whether some of these services at least would be better off delivered in-house by public bodies themselves rather than via contracts. However, this is probably not the place to go into that debate. I want to focus on the need to use that procurement spend as a force for good—to keep wealth in local economies, to ensure that public money goes to responsible companies and not those that exploit people and nature, and to help us meet our climate goals and to preserve a liveable future for all of us. I want to see values, not just value, at the heart of the public procurement process in public life.
That brings me to amendment 60 on the national procurement policy statement, which sets out the strategic objectives that the Government want public procurement to achieve. The amendment would require the Government to assess and report on the impact of the national procurement policy statement on meeting environmental and climate targets and to set out any steps that they intend to take to meet them.
Thanks to the efforts of climate campaigners across the country, we are now seeing the net zero goal and the need for climate action acknowledged in strategies and policy statements across the public sector. But these acknowledgements remain meaningless unless we assess the real world impact of those statements. Are our plans to reduce emissions actually being implemented and are they working? The amendment would signal to contracting authorities and businesses that the Government are serious about aligning procurement with climate and environmental goals. It would also enable Government to see where policy might need to be strengthened if it is not having the intended impact.
New clause 17 would require public contracts that include the supply of food to be aligned with nutritional guidelines and to specify options suitable for a plant-based diet. We know that animal agriculture is one of the largest contributors to global heating and biodiversity loss, representing around 15% of all greenhouse gas emissions according to the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation. More and more people are choosing to move to more plant-based eating and almost one quarter of people in Britain now follow a mainly or entirely meat-free diet.
The 2022 progress report to Parliament by the Climate Change Committee urges the Government not to ignore the role of diet and notes:
“Government can influence diet shifts, through mandating plant-based options in public settings”.
My amendment would require public contracts for the supply of food to be in line with the Eatwell Guide, which drew inspiration from the nutritional guidance of what was then Public Health England, developed in conjunction with the devolved nations. Analysis by the Carbon Trust found that, thanks to lower consumption of meat, dairy and sugary foods, the environmental footprint of the Eatwell diet is around one third lower than the current national diet.
In settings such as hospitals and schools, where good nutrition can make all the difference, our public sector should lead the way by offering nutritious and sustainable food. That is too often overridden by a narrow notion of value for money, resulting in vulnerable people being given food that does not meet nutritional guidelines. As we all remember, during the pandemic the Government were forced to U-turn on school meal vouchers after widespread outrage at the poor quality and quantity of food being distributed to families. That was not just one isolated failure; it was symptomatic of a political culture that thinks we can package up children’s nutrition, health or any public service and hand it over to whichever corporate giant says it will do it most cheaply. That is the culture that has to change.
Last year the all-party parliamentary group on the green new deal, which I co-chair, produced a report setting out how local community-based solutions are key to climate action. As part of that inquiry we heard from the Sustainable Food Places network, as well as from community farms and kitchens. A key recommendation that came up again and again was to use the procurement system to support more local food and plant-based diets.
The Government’s own food strategy proposes a target of at least 50% of food spend to be on food produced locally or to high environmental standards, a move I certainly applaud. However, nine months on from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs consultation, we are still awaiting the Government’s response.
Pioneering local authorities and public bodies are leading the way, and my constituency has had some notable successes. In 2020, Brighton received the first-ever Sustainable Food Places gold award. It has brought in improved standards for procurement as part of a wider campaign to get more people eating more vegetables and its school food supplier meets the Food for Life gold standard for championing healthy, local, climate-friendly food.
A more joined-up approach to food, climate and nature and a real commitment to supporting local businesses and community organisations would have huge benefits for our health and our local economies. In addition to the provisions in this new clause, I would therefore hope to see much more support for public bodies that want to put social value at the heart of procurement, to help them to find out how best to get sustainable food from local producers into public sector canteens.
John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)
I rise to speak to my amendment 68, which was tabled with not just my signature on it, but those of the Chairman and the deputy Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.
The amendment is about value for money and evaluation. We have heard during the course of this debate that this excellent Bill, which covers an enormous amount of much-needed reform in this area, deals with about £300 billion-worth of taxpayers’ money every year. That is a vast amount of cash and it is vital that we spend it as effectively as we possibly can. It matters not just for the value for money that taxpayers get, but for the efficiency and effectiveness with which our public services are delivered. That ought to be a compelling dyad if there ever was one.
The aim of amendment 68 is to achieve that evaluation, which we have already heard about from the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. I stress that this is not just a cross-party amendment, with support from both Labour and Conservative Members and from the cross-party Public Accounts Committee. It also has a very unusual political coalition behind it, which includes not only the Centre for Policy Studies, the TaxPayers’ Alliance and the Adam Smith Institute—all good, solid free-market, centre-right think-tanks—but Transparency International, Spotlight on Corruption, the Campaign for Freedom of Information and the Centre for Public Data. In other words, it is a very unusual political coalition, backing something because it is right in principle and because it yields better value for taxpayers’ money.
I urge Ministers to give the amendment much closer attention. I appreciate that it is different from the equally important questions that we have also addressed during the course of this debate, about exploitation of workers, exploitation of Uyghurs and human rights abuses around the world. However, domestically, in the middle of a cost of living crisis, it really matters to everybody in our constituencies, the man and woman in the street and hard-working families up and down the country and it can make a prompt difference.
Mary Robinson
Value for money is, of course, at the heart of procurement, and we all want to see it. The Royal Institute of British Architects has recommended post-occupancy evaluation. That would be an effective tool for public buildings such as hospitals and schools. Could it form part of the evaluations that my hon. Friend is talking about?
John Penrose
Absolutely; that is a good and broad-based example that proves the concept’s breadth of applicability.
The whole idea behind that is based on the What Works Network, which is currently backed up by the evaluation taskforce—a joint unit between the Cabinet Office and His Majesty’s Treasury. That is long-standing expertise—over 10 years’ worth—in arm’s length evaluation of Government contracts. It is a great idea in principle, and it has its roots very firmly in successful examples such as the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, which does a crucial job relating to the medicines bought by the NHS.
But—and it is a very big and important “but”—just how much of that £300 billion-worth of public expenditure is properly evaluated each year? The answer, or the “stat of shame” as it is described in the civil service, is 8%—£1 in every £12. That is shocking and should worry us all. Whether or not we are concerned about value for money or the effectiveness of our public services, 8% is far too low. It is true that some major projects have their own arrangements, including gating agreements and a much more structured approach, which we hope will drive improvements, but for everything else—the annual contracts granted on a three-year rolling basis, then renewed, extended and renewed again—that is where the opportunity is, that is where the magic is, and that is where the potential for massive savings and better value for money really lies.
It is an old marketing truism that most marketing and advertising directors will say that they know that they waste roughly 50% of their advertising budget, but they just do not know which half. This will be an opportunity for us, when it comes to Government expenditure, to break that particular truism in half and say, “We will know.” The amendment allows the Minister to exclude contracts if he thinks they are too small or are governed by national security, but for everything else in that £300 billion, or as much of it as we can possibly manage, we will know up front what the contract is supposed to achieve, which is, after all, a rather basic thing—one would think that that would be automatically recorded, but at the moment it just is not.
We have to say up front what we are trying to do, and we are supposed to say at the end of the contract, “Well, did we do it?” That has to be evaluated by an arm’s length body according to the existing independent criteria laid out in something called the Magenta Book, which is long established and well respected. If we do that evaluation, we can then ask, “Did it work?” If it did not, we get a learning loop; an opportunity—as the new economy specialists and entrepreneurs call it—to “fail fast”, to ensure that we spot the duds and do not renew or extend them, or allow them to carry on rolling over willy-nilly. Instead, we say, “We are going to change something because this did not work.” That will be published, and then we will not renew that contract in that form. We will change it to fix the faults that would by then have been identified. At the moment, those faults are not being identified and are allowed to continue to roll and roll.
That is a blessedly simple idea. It will also pay for itself, as I said earlier when the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee was giving her speech, because the amount of money that it would save would pay rapidly not just for the existing costs of the What Works Network, but probably for a huge expansion, were Ministers so minded, of such evaluations to other parts of the national procurement effort. It would therefore cost the taxpayer net not a bean, it would dramatically improve value for money, and it would improve the credibility of our public service delivery, which all Governments of every stripe always struggle with. It would be a ready-made arm’s length route for politicians of any party to say, “We are doing the right thing. This is done independently. We will make sure that, next time around, we weed out the bad and expand the good.” That could be genuinely revolutionary.
Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)
The Liberal Democrats support the provisions in the Bill that will speed up and simplify procurement, and create greater opportunities for new entrants, such as small businesses, to access public contracts. However, we have concerns about those areas of the Bill that create opportunities for circumventing the rules that govern the procurement regime. The Government’s shambolic procurement of personal protective equipment during the pandemic exposed the weaknesses in our procurement system, and showed what can happen when Ministers are awarded too much power, and face too little scrutiny. It is vital that safeguards are in place to ensure that billions of pounds of taxpayers’ money does not go to waste.
Amendment 1, which is in my name, seeks to prevent the use of VIP lanes in the procurement of public contracts. The bypassing of the usual procurement rules via VIP lanes during the pandemic saw £3.8 billion of taxpayer funds handed over to 51 suppliers, many of whom were closely tied to Conservative Ministers and their friends. We all know of the scandals that emerged off the back of those contracts; they included reports of excessive profits and conflicts of interest. The Public Accounts Committee, of which I am proudly a member, has, under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier), carried out an inquiry on the management of PPE contracts. We found that at no stage was any consideration given to potential conflicts of interest between individuals making referrals through the VIP lane and the companies that they were referring.
The Prime Minister said that he was “absolutely shocked” to read of the allegations against Baroness Mone, but future scandals will not be a shock unless the Government take action to ensure that our public procurement regime cannot be exploited, and prevent Ministers from giving special treatment to their friends without proper scrutiny. Transparency of procurement decisions is paramount. I therefore urge the Government to accept amendment 1, ban VIP lanes and crack down on future cronyism and sleaze.
New clause 9 would ensure that the national health service complied with the public procurement rules set out in the Bill—I would like to press it to a Division this afternoon. Liberal Democrats in the Lords successfully amended the Bill to bring the NHS into its scope, so I am extremely disappointed that the Government have overturned the Lords amendment and are reinstating a huge carve-out for the NHS. Without new clause 9, the Secretary of State for Health will be able to make up their own rules for huge swathes of NHS procurement via secondary legislation. Handing over such a wide-ranging power to the Secretary of State without ensuring proper scrutiny is not the hallmark of a Government who wish to govern with integrity and transparency.
The Government argue that the procurement rules are important for all procurement decisions, so it is unclear why they believe that the NHS, which has a procurement spend of many billions of pounds, should fall outside the new regime. Surely it is essential that the largest public organisation in the country follow the same procurement rules as all other organisations. I therefore urge the Government to accept the new clause, and support the Liberal Democrats in ensuring that NHS procurement represents value for the taxpayer and is subject to proper scrutiny.
To conclude, the Liberal Democrats support efforts to reform our procurement regime, and to introduce new rules to increase transparency and create opportunities for small businesses, but there is too much room in the Bill for the rules to be circumvented. The Prime Minister’s pledge to act with integrity and professionalism risks becoming an empty promise unless the Government take action to prevent the use of VIP lanes. Further, it would be ludicrous for NHS spending to be left outside the regime that governs all other public bodies. Public procurement is the largest area of public spending, totalling approximately £300 billion a year. It is vital that the taxpayer has confidence that the Government are taking due care, and confidence that money is spent in accordance with fundamental principles of transparency and fairness.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney). I rise to speak to amendments 61 to 67, which stand in the name of the right hon. Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge)—sadly, she cannot be here today, so Members are stuck with me. I cannot do an impression of the energy she would have brought to this debate, but I can try to present the arguments that I think she would have made.
What we are trying to do with these amendments is strengthen the provisions in the Bill to help tackle economic crime. One would think, quite logically, that in a Bill on public sector procurement, the risks of economic crime would be quite a significant issue that we would be trying to deal with. I think it is quite right that we use the Bill to tackle issues of national security or modern-day slavery, but equally, I think it is wrong that we do not have the full protections we need for economic crime in the UK.
This is not just a theoretical problem. In a survey from about five years ago, about a quarter of councils said that they had been victims of corruption in their procurement processes. We estimate that the losses are around £876 million a year—the biggest cause of financial loss in local government—so there is clearly plenty of scope for improvement in our performance. We welcome the fact that under the new UK procurement regime, we have an exclusion and debarring regime that is much better, probably much tougher, and hopefully much easier to use. Those provisions do exist in the EU procurement regime, but they have been extraordinarily rarely used in the UK. I think we all hope that we will be much more effective at using the protections that we are putting in place through the Bill.
Mary Robinson
Exclusion and debarment could be a very effective way to incentivise good governance within suppliers, but also to enable local authorities to crack down on and get rid of corruption and fraud in procurement. Indeed, the United States goes a lot further to protect procurement by encouraging whistleblowers to come forward with information through the False Claims Act. In doing so, the US has recovered about £50 billion in respect of fraud in Government procurement and spending. Does my hon. Friend agree that a stronger whistleblowing framework and anonymous whistleblowing, perhaps through a hotline for procurement, could potentially save taxpayers millions of pounds?
Nigel Mills
I agree with my hon. Friend and commend her for the considerable amount of work she has done on whistleblowing—she truly is an expert. In general, the Americans have some good ideas on this. I was at a briefing last week where someone took me through those powers: if someone brings a private prosecution and the Government take it on halfway through, that person gets to keep 20% of the proceeds that are recovered, and if the Government do not take it on and that person is successful, they get to keep 40%. That creates a real incentive in the system for someone to take the huge risk to their personal wellbeing and career of exposing wrongdoing. I think we could learn a very great deal from the American position in that respect.
The amendments I want to speak to can be covered in three different groups. Amendment 67 would give contracting authorities the power to exclude suppliers when they have evidence of economic crime-related wrongdoing, not just a conviction for it. The Bill contains various measures by which authorities that are going through a procurement exercise do not actually have to see convictions—they can see credible evidence. We have ended up in the rather bizarre situation where I can exclude somebody from a procurement if I believe they have been part of a cartel in South America even though they have not been convicted, but I think they might well have been if they were in the UK; however, I cannot exclude somebody who I have real evidence has been committing economic crime in the UK, because there has not been a conviction for it yet.
The problem with that model is that convictions for crimes such as fraud have fallen by about two thirds in the past decade. We have not had a successful prosecution of a large corporate for fraud for a decade, I think, although we have had some deferred prosecution agreements. If we are relying on excluding dodgy companies from the process only where there has been a conviction, we are going to end up in the rather unfortunate position of there not being enough convictions to make the regime successful.
To me, it seems quite reasonable to allow an extension of the more wide-ranging rules in the Bill to apply to an authority that has credible evidence that an economic crime has been committed, especially if that prosecution process is ongoing when that authority is doing the procurement exercise, instead of it not being able to exclude that party from the exercise even though there is a real chance that they could be convicted quite soon. I just think that situation would be a real weakness. I am not saying that we would mandate exclusion in that situation, but empowering authorities to not go ahead with that party or bidder when they have credible evidence seems like quite a reasonable thing to do.
When this issue was raised in the House of Lords, the Government’s response was that it would impose an unreasonable burden on contracting authorities, but as I have just said, the Bill already imposes quite significant potential burdens to try to work out if somebody has been guilty of cartel-like behaviour. I suspect that would be harder than working out whether they have been guilty of actual fraud in the UK. We have the new unit being created that could support authorities in that process. That would not be mandatory. It would be an option that they could use in situations where they have that evidence, so there would not necessarily be any burden at all. I urge the Minister to give real consideration to whether a system that only allows successful prosecution of excluded companies that behave terribly in these areas of crime is the right balance to strike.
Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)
This House, this country and the British public have a long history of supporting human rights. That is why I rise to support amendment 3 in my name. It is signed by Members from across this House.
Up to 100,000 people are brutally butchered for their organs in the People’s Republic of China. It is industrial-scale, state-sponsored organ harvesting, now a nationwide industry worth more than £800 million. The average age of victims is 28. That is not a mere coincidence: 28 is considered by the Chinese Communist party to be the best age for organ harvesting. Hundreds of thousands are kept in internment camps until they are ripe for slaughter. Two or three organs from healthy young adults—28—are worth up to half a million pounds.
The evidence for this crime is growing by the day. The China and Uyghur tribunals, chaired by Sir Geoffrey Nice KC, former lead prosecutor at The Hague, concluded that Falun Gong, a peaceful religious movement, was the primary target. Worse still, the Chinese Communist authorities have now added the Uyghurs in Xinjiang, some Christians and other prisoners of conscience. The tribunals heard reliable evidence of Uyghur Muslims being subjected to comprehensive blood testing and the collection of DNA, which would allow the oppressive regime to create an organ bank, ready for withdrawals on demand.
Forced organ harvesting is an evil practice that this Government should be doing all they can to stop. At present, there are no specific restrictions on suppliers who are involved in forced organ harvesting. In Committee in the Lords, the Minister stated that this Bill was not the appropriate place to address this issue. I could not disagree more. The hard-earned money of our constituents is free to be used propping up this evil atrocity, but that is not right in a country that prides itself on supporting human rights. We all have a duty to our constituents to make sure they are not inadvertently supporting organ harvesting, or any crime indeed. The Minister also said that forced organ harvesting would already be covered on the grounds of professional misconduct. We have heard that before, only for it to turn out, once a Bill becomes law, that it is not covered. On professional misconduct, may I provide just one example? Once when a surgeon was removing organs, he noticed—he went into a cold sweat—that the body he was operating on was in shock: he was still alive. Professional misconduct!
Forced organ harvesting is not an issue to take such a chance on; it needs specific references relating to this crime against humanity. Last month’s G7 heard our Prime Minister state that we need to work together with our allies to “de-risk” ourselves from China. In the United States, Congressman Chris Smith has introduced a Stop Forced Organ Harvesting Bill, which the House of Representatives almost unanimously supported—straight across. This amendment keeps us in line with our allies. Last November, the Prime Minister delivered his big foreign policy speech and said, on our relationship with China, that
“we will make an evolutionary leap in our approach. This means being stronger in defending our values… And it means standing up to our competitors, not with grand rhetoric but with robust pragmatism.”
This amendment is robust pragmatism in practice. It is not grand rhetoric, but action— action to make sure we are strong in defending our values; action to make sure public money is not supporting a crime against humanity; action that this whole House can be proud of, as it always has been on human rights.
I urge Members from across the House to support amendment 3 to keep our hands clean from this evil practice of forced organ harvesting. We must not continue to turn a blind eye to these horrendous breaches of human rights. Governments across the world need to step up on this. We need to be working together, for—believe you me—China would be far more difficult than Russia.
Kirsty Blackman
It has been an incredibly wide-ranging debate. Everyone has had the opportunity to speak on their own amendments and I find myself trying to speak on everyone’s amendments. I will do my best but if I miss anyone’s it is not personal—it is just that there are a lot of them. I will try to focus on those we are expected to vote on and some that we feel most passionately about.
I was glad to hear the Minister talking about the positions of the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments and recognising that they are consistent with previous positions on trade deals. We consistently believe there is overreach in extending into devolved areas and that is why legislative consent has been withheld on this occasion. Since Brexit particularly, the UK Parliament has been meddling in devolved areas, or allowing itself the power to do so, far more than previously. That is one of the many unfortunate consequences of “bringing back power”: it is power to the Executive, not so much to the devolved Administrations or the rest of us in Parliament.
This Bill is key because the spending of taxpayers’ money for the benefit of, and on behalf of, taxpayers is a hugely powerful and important method the Government can use to ensure that they serve citizens in the best possible way, and that they support behaviours that they want to support and reject those they want to reject, in much the same way as tax laws and new tax measures can be created and implemented to discourage or encourage certain behaviours. There is an opportunity in the Procurement Bill and public procurement to do more than the Government have done in encouraging behaviour.
A number of amendments from Opposition Front Benchers specifically focus on that. I am pleased to see the tax transparency amendment, new clause 10. It makes sense to ask companies to be open and upfront about how much tax they are paying. It is very difficult to find out some of this information and it makes a huge amount of sense that decisions around public procurement could and should be made on the basis of considering whether companies are actually paying the tax they are or should be liable for here.
Amendment 2 from the Opposition on transparency declarations is also incredibly sensible. A number of Members around the House have mentioned the VIP lanes and the fact that there were fast-track contracts in relation to covid. The amendment strikes the right balance. The Government say we need to have fast-track processes and to be able to award contracts quickly. Amendment 2 would still allow that to happen. It would allow the speed that is necessary in emergencies and crises such as covid. It would allow procurement to happen speedily, but would increase the transparency; whether it is an MP, a peer, a senior civil servant or a Minister, a transparency declaration would be required. We wholeheartedly support that amendment.
I turn to amendment 18 on breaching staff rights. The amendment is once again about trying to encourage the behaviour we want to see. We want to see public money, public spending and public contracts going to companies who treat their workers fairly and do not breach workers’ rights. The amendment sets a high bar on exclusion from public procurement as it is specifically about excluding those companies found guilty by an employment tribunal or a court; it not just on the basis of one whistleblower whose case may not yet have been proven. Once again, we wholeheartedly support that.
Alex Burghart
It is a pleasure to wrap up a very interesting Report stage on this landmark piece of post-Brexit legislation that will allow our country to rewrite its procurement rules for the first time in decades.
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman), who had interesting reflections on the Bill. One could be forgiven for being able to listen to her remarks and not understand that the SNP has absented Scotland from the legislation. That is a great shame, and I believe that deep down she recognises the potential of the legislation. As the years go by, and small and medium-sized enterprises, and other businesses and contracting authorities in England, Wales and Northern Ireland benefit from the new regime, we will take pleasure in reminding businesses and contracting authorities in Scotland that it was the SNP that chose to keep Scotland out of it.
I touched on new clause 1, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), in my opening remarks. I am grateful for his saying that he will not push the new clause to a vote today. In return, I am pleased to reaffirm what I said earlier: we are happy to talk to him and other colleagues who are concerned about the definition of “sensitive”, to ensure that it captures the issues about which he is concerned. We do not consider “sensitive” to attach itself just to sites of military significance or intelligence centres controlled by the agencies. It goes further, and we will take his points away regarding ministerial movements.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
May I be clear? On the question I was asking, and have been asking, the Government have moved, particularly in reference to the national security laws of China, but my key point is that the Government should consider that all Departments fall into that category. There should not be any “B” definition. It would be far better if everybody were incorporated into that definition by the time the Bill got to the other place. Supplication would then have to be made for a variation or change, which the Cabinet Office will make a decision about. Start with the power; then let them come and ask for it to be changed. That is the way to do it.
Alex Burghart
I thank my right hon. Friend for his comments. He will have heard me say earlier that we understand his views that “sensitive” could incorporate a broader range of assets, where information gleaned on the movement of officials and politicians could be detrimental to our national security.
I reaffirm our commitment to make a statement in the House within six months of Royal Assent, setting out the timeline for the removal from sensitive sites of surveillance equipment supplied by companies subject to the national intelligence law of China. I state again my gratitude to my right hon. Friend for his important work in this area and for the constructive dialogue that we have had with colleagues on the matter.
Amendment 3, tabled by the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Ms Rimmer), introduces a new ground for the exclusion of suppliers involved in forced organ harvesting. The amendment replicates an amendment made to the Bill in the other House, and subsequently removed by Committee of this House. I reassure her that the Government are not turning a blind eye to the extraordinarily important subject that she raises and highlights consistently.
We are in full agreement that complicity in the abuses associated with the overseas organ trade must not be tolerated. The Government have taken action to address that issue on a number of fronts. The Health and Care Act 2022 prohibits commercial organ tourism. I know the hon. Lady was involved in discussions leading to those provisions being included in the Act. The Government continue to monitor and review evidence relating to reports of forced organ harvesting in China, and maintain a dialogue with leading NGOs and international partners on that very important issue. I reassure her that forced organ harvesting is already covered by the exclusion grounds for professional misconduct. These grounds cover serious breaches of all ethical and professional standards—whether mandatory or not—that apply to different industries and sectors. The mandatory grounds in relation to corporate manslaughter and human trafficking are also relevant in this context. We have sought to limit the grounds—particularly those which, like this one, require an assessment of factual circumstances by the contracting authority—to those where there is a major and particular risk to public procurement. We are not aware of any evidence that a supplier to the UK public sector has been involved in forced organ harvesting, but I want to reassure the hon. Lady that the Bill will be able to deal with this horrendous practice appropriately.
Debbie Abrahams
I just want to make sure that the Minister has not forgotten my new clause 12.
Alex Burghart
I absolutely have not, and I am very much looking forward to getting to it after I gone through the intervening amendments. I appreciate the hon. Lady’s enthusiasm.
The mandatory grounds for exclusion cover the types of misconduct that raise only the most serious risks for contracting authorities. We have strengthened the mandatory grounds significantly in comparison with the EU regime, but they cannot and should not cover every offence that could raise a risk to contracting authorities. However, I can offer reassurance that the offences in question could justify discretionary exclusion on the ground of professional misconduct. This means that contracting authorities would have the flexibility to consider excluding the supplier, but could also factor in the nature of the contract being tendered and other relevant considerations in exercising their discretion.
Amendment 67 seeks to add a discretionary exclusion ground where there is evidence of financial and economic crime activity but there has not been any conviction of the listed offences. These concerns would already be caught by the ground of professional misconduct, which permits contracting authorities to weigh up the available evidence in the context of their procurement and use their discretion in determining whether an exclusion would be appropriate.
New clause 9, tabled by the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney), revisits the issues we discussed in Committee on the application of this Bill to certain healthcare services. New Clause 9 would insert a new clause 119 that would amend the Health and Care Act 2022, effectively deleting the power that enables the Department of Health and Social Care to make bespoke procurement regulations for the purposes of certain healthcare services, known as the provider selection regime. Amendment 13 deletes the existing clause 119 that provides a Minister of the Crown with a power to disapply the Bill to enable the provider selection regime regulations to be applied to those healthcare services.
The combined effect of these two amendments would be to stop the Department of Health and Social Care making separate procurement rules for certain healthcare services, and make the Procurement Bill apply to all healthcare services instead. As was discussed in Committee, the idiosyncrasies of healthcare delivery necessitate some special rules. The decision to create a free-standing scheme of healthcare-specific rules was taken in 2021 to give the NHS the tools required to deliver more joined-up patient pathways through the health system and to avoid some of the problems of double regulation of both the existing healthcare rules and the standard procurement rules. Significant effort has been expended and invested in consulting on and developing that free-standing scheme over several years now. All sides of the marketplace, including commissioners and providers in the healthcare industry, are expecting this new scheme to be delivered promptly to meet the policy aspirations that they have been so extensively consulted upon.
The Procurement Bill does not address any special measures tailored to support the healthcare reform made by the Health and Care Act 2022, as these measures have always been intended to be provided for in the new provider selection regime regulations. For example, the provider selection regime would permit direct awards to be made in defined circumstances, such as critical A&E services, that cannot be disrupted or when a certain provider is required to play a pivotal role in an integrated healthcare system. It would be incredibly unhelpful for both schemes at this critical stage, when both these healthcare regulations and the Procurement Bill are on the cusp of delivery, to start attempting to unpick it all now. Doing so would add unacceptable and entirely avoidable costs and delays to both programmes, for no tangible benefit. It would also mean more NHS contracts being subject to the rules of the Procurement Bill without due consideration of the exemptions and specific arrangements required to safeguard sustainable and joined-up delivery of NHS services to patients.
Of course Parliament will have its rightful opportunity to scrutinise the provider selection regime regulations, but it cannot be right to do this through the Procurement Bill for the purpose of killing off a near-ready scheme that supports important healthcare reforms that have already been debated and agreed by Parliament in the Health and Care Act.
Amendment 14, also tabled by the hon. Member for Richmond Park, would explicitly name the NHS in the definition of a contracting authority, a matter also discussed in Committee. Although I understand and entirely agree with the view that NHS bodies should be contracting authorities within the scope of this legislation, there is no need for any amendment in this respect, as the Bill already applies to NHS bodies in its current form.
New Clause 10, tabled by the hon. Member for Vauxhall, would require the submission of a tax report where a bidder is a multinational supplier. The tax reports of winning bidders would then be published. I understand that the aim of this amendment is to encourage contracting authorities to favour suppliers that can demonstrate responsible tax conduct. However, hon. Members will know that the basis on which contracts must be awarded under the Bill is by reference to award criteria that relate to the contract being tendered, not to other matters such as where a supplier pays tax. This is the right principle to deliver value for money for the taxpayer. Crucially, it is also a feature of the UK’s international obligations under the World Trade Organisation’s Government procurement agreement. Of course, the Government expect businesses to take all necessary steps to comply with their tax obligations. It is for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to enforce the law on tax, and indeed UK-based multinational enterprises are required to make an annual country-by-country report to HMRC.
Turning to amendment 2, tabled by the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), we consider that the Bill already has the balance right in terms of achieving greater transparency on direct award. Indeed, save for the small subset of user-choice contracts, it will now be mandatory to publish a transparency notice declaring an intention to award a contract in every case. This will include confirmation of the contracting authority having undertaken a conflicts assessment prior to signature of the contract.
In addition, the Bill also requires the conflicts position to be kept under review and to be revised at key points in the procurement, which will be confirmed via the contract details notice, after the contract is signed. This further ensures contracting authorities comply with ongoing statutory requirements contained in the Bill. Of course, we are all aware that MPs and peers are already required to register their interests, and civil servants are required to confirm annually that their declarations of interest are up to date. Furthermore, the Bill includes an additional safeguard in clause 83(4) so that where
“a contracting authority is aware of circumstances that…are likely to cause a reasonable person to…believe there to be a conflict”
these must also be addressed. We take these matters very seriously, and there is no need for additional provision to cover this issue. We will continue to work with contracting authorities to show that they know the requirements around conflicts of interest and that they are implemented effectively.
On new clause 12, I welcome the ongoing efforts of the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) to improve liquidity for small businesses, including by advocating for and championing the increased use of project bank accounts. We recognise the energy and enthusiasm she brings to that campaign.
As I said in Committee, project bank accounts are most often an effective way to ensure fair payment and to protect suppliers, and they are already the Government’s preferred vehicle for construction contracts where it is cost-effective and cost-efficient. Government Departments have made a commitment to use PBAs in construction projects unless there are compelling reasons not to do so. However, it is not the Government’s position that PBAs should be mandated across all contracting authorities, as they are not always suitable or cost-effective, particularly where the subcontractor is very small or is paid more frequently than monthly, or where the supply chain is short. Instead, we intend to continue educating contracting authorities, through guidance, on the circumstances in which we believe PBAs are practical and effective.
Debbie Abrahams
I remind the Minister that new clause 12 covers contracts worth over £2 million, so it is not for all contracts.
Alex Burghart
I accept the hon. Lady’s point, but there are other circumstances to consider, which I have just outlined.
We are already working with industry to discourage the withholding of retentions by supporting zero retention for high-quality work pilot projects and reducing the default rate of retentions within certain types of contract to zero. However, we do not support dictating the operation of construction contracts to the degree proposed.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Jeremy Quin)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I stand here today proud of the progress we have made to deliver an important manifesto commitment. The Procurement Bill constitutes a vital piece of legislation following our exit from the European Union, which allows us to set our own rules that will work best for the UK. I am delighted to say that we will sweep away bureaucratic regulations and broaden opportunity to small businesses right across the country.
One in every £3 of public money, some £300 billion a year, is spent on public procurement. For too long, modern and innovative approaches to public procurement have been bogged down in bureaucracy. We are changing that. The Bill simplifies our public procurement rules, cutting down the 350 different procurement regulations to create a single rulebook. This will create a more efficient, innovative and friendly procurement system, increasing value for money and opening up public contracts to small businesses, in turn supporting the Prime Minister’s commitment to grow the economy.
Jeremy Quin
I keep promising my colleagues that I will be brief, but I will always give way to the hon. Lady.
Debbie Abrahams
The Minister is being very generous with his time. He will not be surprised by my question. I was a little disappointed that my new clause 12, on introducing and mandating project bank accounts, was disregarded. I mentioned the estimate that 6,000 small construction firms will go into insolvency this year. What is the Department’s analysis of how that might be prevented by project bank accounts?
Jeremy Quin
I am sure I could try to produce a one-hour solution, or I could be more direct with the hon. Lady. I know she has raised this issue on numerous occasions, but she and I have not spoken about it one-on-one. If she wishes to speak to me about it, we could have a meeting, if that would help. I might learn something from it or I might be able to inform the hon. Lady, but if she wishes to do that, I will make certain that we have that opportunity.
Sir Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)
On that point, will my right hon. Friend give way?
Sir Bill Wiggin
Construction businesses are terribly important. If the Government could do something about the ban on building, for example because of pollution in the River Wye, then those construction businesses would find new opportunities and would flourish.
Jeremy Quin
My hon. Friend is vociferous on the issue of the River Wye. He never misses an opportunity and has proved his dexterousness yet again, in doing so in this debate.
We, on the Government Benches, are proud to be the party of small business. I am delighted that, as part of this Bill, authorities will now have to have regard to small and medium-sized enterprises and the barriers that they face.
Finally, the Bill will put in place a new exclusions framework that will help to make it easier to reject bids from suppliers whose performance on previous contracts has been unacceptable, or who have been involved in serious wrongdoing, such as fraud, collusion or modern slavery. Crucially, on Report, we introduced a package of vital amendments that will protect our national security and ensure that public contracts do not go to suppliers who pose a risk to our country.
We will also create the national security unit for procurement, which will proactively investigate suppliers for national security threats, and we will publish, within six months of the passing of the Bill, a timeline for the removal of all the surveillance equipment provided by suppliers subject to the national intelligence law of China from sensitive Government sites, protecting places that are most vulnerable to sinister interference and espionage. Together, these changes constitute robust protections against the ever increasing national security threats.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank all hon. Members across the House for the quality of the debates and the scrutiny provided throughout the passage of the Bill. I am indebted to my hon. Friends and to those across the House for the helpful engagement and the comments they have made, which have undoubtedly refined this crucial piece of legislation.
I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart) for his excellent work on Committee and on Report in this House, and to Baroness Neville-Rolfe for her tireless work in the other place. The Bill has had a long progression, so I would also like to thank our predecessors, Lord Agnew and my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg), for their work on the Bill in its earlier stages.
I thank the officials who have worked on this Bill, particularly the Bill manager, Katrina Gayevska, Sam Rowbury, Ed Green, Janet Lewis and other officials who worked on this legislation, as well as the staff in the private offices of all the Ministers in the Cabinet Office, for their support and help throughout.
When he entered office, the Prime Minister said that he would deliver on the manifesto on which we were elected. I am proud today to be doing just that, and I wholeheartedly commend the Bill to the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I call the Deputy Leader of the Opposition.
Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab)
I start where the right hon. Member for Horsham (Jeremy Quin) left off, by saying thank you to all right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken today, in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) for her contributions throughout the stages of the Bill. I also thank the brilliant Clerks and the House staff, and everyone who has been involved and on hand to support every step of the Bill.
It has been a long and complex process, and I know the Cabinet Office has been very busy in recent weeks, so I welcome the opportunity to debate something of more substance today. Unfortunately, the substance of the Bill, while necessary, is a little bit of tinkering around the edges of a broken system. I understand the need for a new Procurement Bill, to consolidate the patchwork of former EU rules and to bring the spaghetti of procurement regulations into one place, but it seems this distracted Government are more concerned with the civil war than writing good legislation.
Britain faces huge economic challenges—challenges made worse by years of economic incompetence, a disastrous kamikaze Budget and a Government on the side of vested interests. Wages have flatlined, prosperity has turned to stagnation and Britain has the highest forecast inflation in the G7. Procurement is one of the biggest and most effective tools available to Government to drive up standards across the economy and create world-class, affordable and effective public services.
As the Minister said in his response, we are talking about £300 billion of public money a year, a third of public spending and more than the NHS budget. What we should be debating this evening is a bold new set of rules to direct investment to the places that need it most. We should be discussing how we can clear the pipes and flush out the system with transparency after years of cronyism and waste. We should be debating legislation that pumps money back into the pockets of local communities, creates decent jobs and skills in our towns and cities, and hands wealth back to the people who built Britain.
Instead, what we have before us today is a damp squib. This Bill fails to close the loopholes that saw obscene waste of taxpayers’ money through the VIP lane, it fails to mandate social value to secure investment in good British business, and it fails to create robust protections for workers. Labour recognises the need for a new procurement Bill, and for that reason we will not oppose this one, but surely we can do better than this.
This evening the Government chose to vote against a Labour amendment that would have blocked VIP lanes, for the third time. They have had three opportunities to show that they have learnt from the waste and the cronyism that we saw during the pandemic, and on all three occasions they have refused. In fact, loopholes included in this Bill will make it easier for Ministers to bypass existing transparency rules. The Tory VIP lane is at the heart of why we need a procurement Bill. It exposed the true weaknesses in the system and showed us why we desperately need a more agile and transparent procurement system.
Jeremy Quin
It is a bit late in our proceedings, but I really would encourage the right hon. Lady to read the Bill, even at this late stage.
Angela Rayner
I think the Minister knows full well that I have read the Bill, and it is a real shame that in the conversations that my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall and I have had with him and his team, they have refused to help stop this loophole. The Tory cronyism on the VIP lane is still there in this legislation. The VIP lane enabled a shameful waste of taxpayers’ money and profiteering by unfit and unqualified providers, and as a result the Government have written off £10 billion of public funds spent on personal protective equipment that was unusable, overpriced or undelivered.
While I welcome the moves in the Bill to issue “transparency notices” before awarding a contract, these are just baby steps; they barely scratch the surface. We must see end-to-end transparency. And it is not just me who thinks that. The amendment that the Government voted down today is a proposal by the National Audit Office, a totally independent body calling for the Government to end their murky practices that saw taxpayers’ money wasted at eye-watering rates.
This Bill also gave us an opportunity to reimagine the way we spend public money in order to promote decent work across the economy, to reward businesses that treat their workers right, and to use procurement to raise the floor on working conditions for all. Any suppliers given taxpayers’ money should provide their workers with decent pay, respect, dignity and fairness, as well as access to a trade union. Economies across the world expect that from their employers. In France, Germany and the Netherlands, for example, more collective bargaining, stronger workers’ rights and a fair share of wealth lead to higher growth, productivity and staff retention. President Biden’s Government direct investment to companies with a track record of treating their workers with respect, so why can’t we?
But over the last 13 years, the Tories have failed to use the levers of government to drive up standards for working people. In fact, things have got worse. I am disappointed but not surprised that the Government today voted down our amendment, which would have held suppliers to account when they repeatedly abuse workers’ rights. Taxpayers do not expect their money to be handed to suppliers with a track record like that. They want to see their money going to suppliers who pay their staff properly and who uphold fair conditions, job security and union access. That is the bare minimum.
I also want to take this moment to welcome the Government’s last-minute amendments on national security. I could not help but recognise some of those amendments. I would also like to pay tribute to the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns), whom I worked closely with to highlight the need for change in managing the risk in procurement. I welcome the Minister’s recognition that the current system leaves the door open for foreign threats to enter our supply chain and for taxpayers’ money to be spent with no oversight on whether they are properly vetted. That said, I hope the Minister can tell us what criteria his Government will use to identify suppliers who pose a risk to national security, and I hope he will consider the inclusion of cyber-security criteria in that assessment.
In closing, I would like to once again thank all hon. and right hon. Members for their contributions today. While procurement might seem a dry topic, it is absolutely central to the way that our country works, and when Ministers abuse the procurement system, it is taxpayers who suffer. As we saw during the pandemic, the VIP lane for PPE contracts was a scandal of epic proportions that allowed the shameful waste of taxpayers’ money and inexcusable profiteering, yet instead of learning the lessons of this failure, this evening Ministers voted for a third time to protect the loophole that allows the VIP lanes to exist. The Government have a duty to learn the lessons from the pandemic and, quite frankly, Ministers have abdicated that duty here today. While the Tories are too distracted to govern, Labour in power would flush cronyism out of the system and protect taxpayers, to ensure that every pound is spent in the national interest.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, with amendments.
Energy Bill [Lords]: Ways and Means
Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Energy Bill [Lords], it is expedient to authorise—
(1) the imposition, by virtue of the Act, of charges or payments under licences issued under the Gas Act 1986;
(2) the making of provision under the Act requiring electricity suppliers to make payments, or to provide financial collateral, to the Secretary of State;
(3) the making of provision under the Act in relation to income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, stamp duty, stamp duty reserve tax, stamp duty land tax or value added tax in connection with a transfer of property, rights or liabilities by a scheme under the Act.—(Andrew Bowie.)
Electronic Trade Documents Bill [Lords]: Second Reading
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order Nos. 59(3) and 90(5)), That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Question agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Public Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63).
Electronic Trade Documents Bill [Lords] Committee
Ordered,
That the Electronic Trade Documents Bill [Lords] Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it shall meet.—(Robert Largan.)
Business without Debate
Petitions
Helen Morgan (North Shropshire) (LD)
I rise to present this petition to the House of Commons about access to bus services for my constituents across North Shropshire. Shropshire has some of the poorest services in the country. The petition was signed by 1,611 of my constituents who are frustrated by the lack of available transport. Many people struggle to get to medical appointments and high streets, while some businesses are dealing with significant shortages in recruitment for the simple reason that staff cannot get work without public transport connections. This petition declares that rural communities should be provided with improved access to bus and public transport services to better connect towns and villages, particularly to public services.
The petition states:
The petition of residents of North Shropshire,
Declares that residents are concerned by the poor bus services in North Shropshire; express their frustration at struggling to use public transport to travel to key amenities like hospitals and schools; convey their difficulties in securing work opportunities due to lack of transport connections; and note that currently only one bus service operates on Sundays throughout the constituency.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to take their concerns into account and act to ensure that bus connections are available to the residents of North Shropshire seven days per week, connecting local villages and towns.
And the petitioners remain, etc.
[P002837]
Sir Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
I rise to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Rossendale and Darwen regarding roadworks in the Rossendale valley. My petition has had more than 1,700 signatures, both on paper and online.
The petition states:
The petition of residents of the constituency of Rossendale and Darwen,
Declares that there are major traffic issues across the Rossendale Valley which are caused by temporary traffic lights, thus holding up traffic and causing congestion; further declares that this could be solved by using a Statutory Instrument to allow Lancashire County Council to adopt a ‘lane rental scheme’; furthermore, this would mean that utility companies would have to pay to close the road to carry out their work and repairs; notes that this scheme is already in place across London and has proven to reduce traffic significantly by incentivising companies to carry out work quickly and efficiently.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to take into account the concerns of the petitions and take immediate action to give Lancashire County Council the power to charge companies who dig up roads.
And the petitioners remain, etc.
[P002838]
Heating Rural Homes
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Sir Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to be able to address this important issue. We all want to beat climate change, cut emissions and leave the planet in a better condition than we found it, so we do need to address the challenge of heating rural homes. It is perhaps ironic that we should be discussing this topic during a heatwave, but
“pleasant as it may be to bask in the warmth of recovery… The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining”.
As North Herefordshire is a rural constituency, I urge the Government to ensure that there is an equitable solution for heating rural homes. Around 1.1 million homes in England are not connected to the gas grid and currently use some of the most carbon-intensive heating fuels, such as oil and coal. Some rural homes do not even have the option of an electricity supply.
In the past year, we have seen the price of fuel fluctuate wildly due to Russia’s illegal and brutal invasion of Ukraine. In the wake of the invasion, heating oil hit an unprecedented 110 pence a litre, well over double the regular cost.
Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate and on highlighting how different rural areas are from urban areas. As he mentioned, so many households —up to 76%—are off grid and on things like heating oil. Does he agree that decisions made in urban Whitehall need to understand that rural areas are different? Some well-intentioned schemes, such as the sustainable warmth scheme, have not worked well in practice. There needs to be flexibility in these policies so that, when we talk about phasing out heating oil or, indeed, phasing out petrol and diesel vehicles—things that are so vital to rural areas—we can make sure the Government listen to rural areas.
Sir Bill Wiggin
My hon. Friend is a rural champion, like myself. With his background in animal welfare, he feels the beat of the countryside in his veins. He is absolutely right about having that rural priority for vital things such as climate change, where we all want the right things. We all want to do the best we can for our constituents, but what works in inner London is so different from that which would affect his constituents, those in Brecon and Radnorshire, or the wonderful people of North Herefordshire.
As I said, the fuel price hit an unprecedented 110 pence per litre, double the regular cost, or even more. The Government moved commendably quickly to help secure our energy supply and to protect consumers through the energy price guarantee. However, for those off grid, that support was not forthcoming. The energy price guarantee ensured that gas and electricity bills were capped at about half of what they could have been, but those using alternative fuels received a £200 payment and there was no cap on the price. As a result, they were subjected to massive price increases, with little to safeguard them from factors completely out of their control. During this period, I received emails from people in Herefordshire whose houses are off the mains grid and who were deeply concerned by the rapidly increasing price of alternative fuel.
With the UK target of reaching net zero by 2050 in mind, the Government are pursuing a heat pump-led approach to secure energy independence for the UK. Their well-meaning boiler ban, set to take effect in 2026, will force homeowners to replace their gas and oil boilers with low-carbon alternatives. Although that ban may be well-intentioned and appears to align with the target of reaching net zero by 2050, we have forgotten the impracticality of such a ban for those people living off grid. With 75% of rural properties off the gas grid, these homeowners rely on alternative heating methods. Of all the off-grid homes in the UK, 55% are heated with heating oil, just 18% with electricity, 11% with solid fuel and 10% with liquid petroleum gas. That means that 76% of off-grid households will soon have to replace their heating systems.
Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate for the 15% of households in my constituency who are off the gas grid. Does he agree that the best way the Government could rise to the challenge he is powerfully making is to adopt the proposal from my right hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) to permit the use of hydrotreated vegetable oil and other sustainable fuels in existing oil burners and indeed new oil-burning boilers, so that customers and residents of all our constituencies are not forced to spend tens of thousands of pounds on a technology that may not actually work?
Sir Bill Wiggin
All I can say is that those 15% of my hon. Friend’s constituents are lucky to have such a champion in their MP—what a hero for rural sensibility. We are truly blessed to have an intervention such as that. Later in my speech, I may touch on the subject of HVO. What he is saying is absolutely right. We need to be much broader in our outlook about what works for people, not through force, but through choice, so that the people who want to do the right thing can do so, rather than being curmudgeonly bullied—
Mr Carmichael
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I should perhaps declare an interest, as someone who owns a house that is also heated by oil-fired central heating, however inadequately. The point he makes illustrates well what happens when Government intervene to set targets and to insist that things must be done by a certain deadline. We see that time and again. I can tell him and others now that one of the biggest problems will be the lack of available skilled, qualified labour in rural areas and in other places to install the equipment for these things. Would it not be better if on this occasion we were to use a little more of the carrot and a little less of the stick, as he and I did when we were Whips together?
Sir Bill Wiggin
Indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, there is no finer advocate of the pointy carrot than the right hon. Gentleman. But he is right. Again, it is as though he has read my speech because I will touch on the shortage of qualified technicians. One of the problems that we face is that, by insisting on one technology, all those various engineers who can do different things are being forced to do the same thing and, of course, that is far from practical or ideal. I will touch on that in a moment.
Those off the gas grid may face unique challenges that will prove a huge obstacle if the ban comes in. According to the Government’s heat and buildings strategy, at least 20% of off-grid homes will not be suitable for heat pumps. Rural areas tend to have limited infrastructure, meaning that it is impractical and uneconomical to deploy heat pump installations in every home. Many rural homes, particularly older or listed buildings, are not designed to accommodate these systems. Heat pumps work best in well-insulated and energy-efficient properties, which rural homes, sadly, tend not to be.
More than 35% of rural properties have an energy efficiency rating of F or G, compared with just 2.1% of properties in urban areas. That is a massive difference. In part, that is because properties located in these areas are proportionately more likely to be older, of traditional construction, detached and potentially larger than urban properties. But it is also because the current stupid, useless and inappropriate energy performance certificate assessment is based on modern construction. More than 60% of homes were built before 1970 and before the first thermal regulations, so these properties are extremely disadvantaged when it comes to energy efficiency ratings.
Sir Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
On the issue of the flawed nature of EPC, that is an important point. My hon. Friend will be aware that thatched buildings are often given a very low EPC rating because there is no ability to calculate the thermal quality of thatch. Thatch is a brilliant insulating material, so it is complete nonsense that thatched buildings should be given such low rating. This would be of passing interest were it not also the case that the Government are rapidly bringing forward legislation to prevent landlords from renting out properties if they have a low EPC rating. On that point, I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. There are also reports from the Department that it will in future be more difficult to get a mortgage if a property has a low EPC rating, with the voluntary code being suggested to the current clearing banks later to become a compulsory code. In many areas of the countryside, the net effect of that policy will be that someone will have zero chance of getting a mortgage unless these ridiculous EPC ratings and mechanisms are updated.
Sir Bill Wiggin
Madam Deputy Speaker, I saw you thinking that that was perhaps a bit of a long intervention, but it was pure gold. My right hon. Friend is absolutely right: these energy performance certificates are not just stupid and useless, but absolutely evil when it comes to the fundamental right of people to want to own their own homes—something in which we on the Conservative Benches believe passionately. Worse than that, if someone cannot get an EPC rating of C, they cannot rent a house either. All of this will be no different from the land clearances, when people were shipped off into the cities because they simply could not or were not allowed to live in the countryside. It is an appalling situation and my right hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight it. I hope the Minister is trembling on the Front Bench at the vehemence of loathing that I have for EPCs, not least because, when I last got one, it said that we should have built a windmill in the garden. How stupid can you get when it comes to really mindless environmental legislation. I care very much about this because, if we are going to do a good job of saving the planet, we cannot be handicapped by cretinous legislation such as EPCs. I ask the Minister to please fix it.
To go back to the speech in hand, we have covered traditional features in old homes. Indeed, it is even more troublesome and expensive to retrofit a listed building, of which there are around 500,000 in England. They have solid floors and walls and are much more difficult to rectify. The House will be aware of the debates I have held on environmental standards for listed buildings and the most welcome progress that was made to allow double glazing by Historic England—a small step, one might think, but to have 500,000 houses in this country banned from having double glazing just reinforces why I rage at EPCs. There are all the other environmental steps that we want to take but are banned from taking.
Sir Bill Wiggin
I would be delighted to give way to my hon. Friend; I have hardly started.
Greg Smith
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way twice. Does he agree that many of the houses that are challenged by the EPC regime simply cannot have the retrofitting he talks about, such as those built out of cob or witchert, a form of cob unique to the Vale of Aylesbury—to declare an interest, my own house is partially made out of witchert—where the walls need to breathe? Therefore, people cannot put in place the measures that would allow a higher EPC rating or allow a heat pump to work in the first place.
Sir Bill Wiggin
I feel for my hon. Friend. When we buy a washing machine or dishwasher and look at the energy rating on it, it is a helpful guide to what we should expect our fuel bills to be. However, the EPCs for houses are off the scale in their inability to provide anything useful and I am mustard-keen for the Minister to tackle them.
My fear is that Historic England, that wonderful body that has been trying to make Leominster a nicer place, may go back on its guidance on double glazing and on the curtilage of listed buildings. That would be a shame because, while there is an industry built up with secondary glazing, it is really important that as a Government we help people to do the right thing. Something that saves energy, improves fuel efficiency and makes houses nicer places to live in is obviously a sensible step.
I am sure the Minister does not find it hard to see why the boiler upgrade scheme has been such a disappointment. Tragically, £90 million-worth of subsidy is being given back to the Treasury due to the difficulty of uptake. The Government’s latest scheme offers households grants of between £5,000 and £6,000 for low-carbon heating systems such as heat pumps—kind, well-meaning and hopelessly inappropriate. Ofgem figures show that fewer than 10,000 installations were completed under the scheme between its launch in May last year and March this year.
Households with a broken boiler could wait up to six months to source a certified installer, as the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) said, receive a grant, if they are lucky, purchase the heat pump, if it is available, and have it installed, by which time they may have suffered without heating during the coldest months of the year. That is never going to deliver on our ambitions, not least because every broken boiler is a missed opportunity. It means people will go out and buy another fossil fuel boiler because the option to buy a heat pump was just too difficult.
We cannot afford to drop the ball like that. Every time someone needs a new boiler, surely the right thing is for them to say, “Thank goodness for the Minister! She made it so much easier for me to get a super-efficient, clean boiler, which is not just keeping me toasty in the winter, but saving the planet for my children and grandchildren.” That is where we need to get to, and I know the Minister is listening and smiling with delight because that opportunity is opening up before her.
While the Government may have set the ambitious target of 600,000 installations of heat pumps per year by 2028, it will not be achieved unless they address the extortionate cost and impracticality of installation. A poll by Liquid Gas UK discovered that more than two thirds of people living in off-grid rural homes fear that they would not be able to afford a heat pump if required to install one. The average cost of installing a low-carbon heating system such as a heat pump is estimated to be between £15,000 and £30,000. That probably includes the £5,000 grant, as installers are not going to ignore the subsidy, either. For many families, that is an expense that they simply cannot afford. Twelve per cent of houses in rural areas are in fuel poverty—a rate 43% higher than on-grid homes.
On top of the expensive cost of heat pumps, there is a lack of skilled engineers available to install and manage them. I recently received an email from a heating engineer who works in an off-gas grid area of Herefordshire. They are deeply concerned that the Government’s proposals are impractical because it is so expensive and difficult to install heat pumps. In rural areas, it will therefore be extremely difficult to source a nearby engineer to install a heat pump when one’s current oil boiler breaks.
Homeowners should have the freedom to choose their heating systems based on what suits their needs, preferences and budgets. Rather than installing an expensive heat pump, they might find it more suitable to have a hybrid or cocktail of alternative energy sources, such as biomass boilers, which are eligible for the Government’s renewable heat incentive—
Sir Bill Wiggin
My right hon. Friend mutters “not any more”. That renewable heat incentive for domestic properties would be a wonderful step forward and would encourage biomass in all its different forms.
The Government already provide financial incentives such as grants for reducing the up-front cost of solar panels, making solar power an affordable choice for many households. I welcome the Government’s encouragement of rooftop solar by cutting VAT on solar panels, which saves households more than £1,000 on installation, in addition to the £300 annual saving on their energy bills. Now that we have left the EU, the Government have been able to remove the 5% VAT charge on energy-saving materials, including solar panels, heat pumps and insulation. However, a bigger tax break on UK-manufactured environmental solutions is needed to encourage people to do the right thing when it comes to heating their homes.
Sir Jake Berry
It is absolutely within our power to encourage people to install solar panels, but does my hon. Friend agree that another thing that the Government could do is to bring solar panels within the permitted development regime? Often, the expense of a planning application and of delays puts many people off.
Sir Bill Wiggin
I cannot think of a reason why putting solar panels on the roof of a house should not be permitted development, but it is not. That is a simple step that would really help. I remember when the onshore wind debate started. The then Labour Government refused to allow even the smallest electricity-generating windmill on the side of people’s homes in case it made the electricity meter go backwards. We lost the public at that point. They wanted to do the right thing, but they were prevented from doing so. Solar panels on rooftops should be a natural step forward. They should be permitted development and part of the planning permission for every new build.
If we are to embrace the technology of solar panels, let us ensure that they are made in Britain. Let us stop making the Chinese richer because we want to do the right thing for the environment while they build coal-fired power stations. Bigger tax breaks on UK-manufactured environmental solutions are needed to encourage people to do the right thing.
As solar panels are not always suitable for certain types of building or locations across the country, alternative options should also be supported. Hydrotreated vegetable oil, for example, is a sustainable fuel that can, at a small cost, be used in a conventional boiler. HVO has been trialled in over 150 homes across the UK in the last 18 months, yet it has been given no special tax treatment to encourage its usage. Bringing HVO fuel duty rates in line with kerosene—paraffin, or “heating oil”—would significantly lower its cost.
It is also clear that we need a better solution to incentivise both the take-up and production of UK-made heat pumps. Currently the boiler upgrade scheme subsidy is merely pushing up prices, when supply-side reforms and intelligent incentives would clearly be better options. Stimulating a home-grown heat pump industry similar to our natural gas boiler industry, which produces 90% of all gas boilers in this country, will increase supply and bring down costs for consumers.
A number of British businesses are already striving to make renewable energy cost-effective and affordable, such as Caplor Energy in my constituency, which provides a full range of renewable energy solutions nationwide. We should encourage British-based companies through big tax breaks, rather than continuing to import heat pumps from abroad and filling the pockets of Chinese companies. A holistic approach to rural home energy systems that involves a mixture of technologies would allow homeowners to transition to a fully electric product once the correct thermal efficiency levels have been reached. They could then avoid having to make drastic changes to the fabric of their house all at once, with or without the local council’s intervention.
In many cases, a hybrid heat pump would be most appropriate, as they efficiently switch between renewable and fossil fuel. Hybrid heat pumps are a good middle ground; they ensure a reduction in carbon emissions without leaving people at the mercy of the weather or subject to power outages, yet the renewable heat incentive scheme no longer extends to hybrid heating systems, or any other systems that could have eased the transition to entirely electric heating.
The Government propose a “rural first” approach to the transition. They aim to phase out the replacement of fossil fuel boilers in rural homes from 2026. That is almost a decade earlier than the date for equivalent homes connected to the gas grid. That is extraordinarily unfair. It is far too difficult for the Government to phase out fossil fuel heating in off-grid homes from 2026. The Government consulted on the proposal to phase out the replacement of fossil fuel boilers from 2026 for off-grid homes in January last year, but we are yet to see their response to the consultation. When will they publish it, given that it has been over a year since the consultation? In the absence of a response, can the Minister confirm that the Government will delay the 2026 boiler ban until there are effective and affordable alternatives for heating rural homes?
To conclude, I commend the Government on their net zero policy and on our environmental agenda. We must pursue a more flexible, cost-effective and practical approach to heating rural homes that considers the unique circumstances of these areas. The Government’s 2026 boiler ban is a misguided policy that fails to consider the practical implications and financial hardships that it would impose on people living in rural communities. We must ensure that the voice of rural homeowners is heard, and that their concerns are addressed. I urge the Government to re-evaluate their strategy, drop the ban, and develop a plan that prioritises practicality, affordability and choice for rural homeowners, and ensures that those living in rural homes are not unfairly disadvantaged because of where they live.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Amanda Solloway)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Herefordshire (Sir Bill Wiggin) for his impassioned speech. We have heard a lot from the rural champions who are here, so it is a great pleasure to be here. I point out that the issue is not in my portfolio; however, I will take back to the Department any question that I cannot answer, and will of course respond in due course to anybody I do not manage to respond to directly tonight. This is an incredibly important debate on heating rural homes. I thank my hon. Friend for our conversation earlier, in which he explained the problem.
Decarbonising off-gas-grid properties that use fossil fuel heating is a key priority for us, as they are some of our biggest polluters. The use of oil and other high-carbon fossil fuels to heat our properties also reinforces our dependence on foreign sources of energy. The Government recognise that off-gas-grid households have been particularly exposed to high and volatile energy bills, due to the impact of rising global fossil fuel prices following Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine. That is why we have taken decisive action to support rural households facing higher heating costs through the winter. The energy price guarantee is currently protecting customers from increasing energy costs by limiting the amount that suppliers can charge per unit of gas or electricity used. In addition, the alternative fuel payment scheme delivered £200 to households that use alternative fuels such as heating fuel, petroleum gas or biomass, helping around 2 million off-grid households across the United Kingdom.
Going forward, the Government intend to move away from universal energy bill support and towards better targeted support for those most in need. Therefore, to keep prices down for ordinary households in the long term, we need to make sure that we are relying on sources of energy that are affordable, clean and—above all—secure.
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
The Minister is very gracious in giving way, and she is making a most interesting speech. Could I recommend to her something that would be helpful, namely whisky? In the rural community of Wick, in Caithness in my constituency, we have a distillery called Old Pulteney—it is an excellent whisky, but that is not the subject of this intervention. Old Pulteney helps to heat at least 200 houses in Wick, as well as Caithness General Hospital. It is an imaginative solution, so I suggest that the Minister looks at how that is done, takes herself on a tour of other distilleries that are not doing the same, and samples their wares for inner warmth, but also sees how they can contribute to outer warmth.
Amanda Solloway
I confess to being a whisky drinker, so I feel a visit coming on, but that might not be allowed. Of course, I will look into that.
Transitioning rural, off-grid properties to low-carbon heat will help to move us off imported oil and build energy independence; help protect consumers from high and volatile energy bills; and keep us on track for net zero. However, I want to take this opportunity to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for North Herefordshire that we recognise the challenges involved, which he has described so eloquently. Decarbonising rural, off-grid properties in a way that is fair, affordable and smooth for consumers will require a range of different technologies and policy approaches.
While we expect that most off-grid properties will ultimately switch to heat pumps, affordability is a key challenge that we need to address, particularly while the cost of installing a heat pump remains higher than the cost of replacing an oil system. That is why we are taking a range of steps to grow the heat pump market to 600,000 installations a year by 2028, and to make installing a heat pump a more attractive and affordable choice for heating a home. I acknowledge the challenge of building the skills that installers will need; I will take that point away and—with your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker—come back at a later date in a different manner. The steps we are taking include providing support through schemes such as the boiler upgrade scheme and home upgrade grant. We want to make sure that people make green choices.
As we take action, we want to ensure that the economic benefits of the transition to net zero are retained in the United Kingdom, which will create new, highly skilled jobs in the low-carbon economy. That is why we are investing £30 million in the heat pump investment accelerator, which will bring forward investment in heat pump supply chains and aim to ensure that at least 300,000 heat pumps are manufactured annually here in the UK by the end of the decade. I also take this opportunity to reassure my hon. Friend that no one will be required to install an unsuitable technology in their home or business. Heat pumps will not work everywhere—some off-grid properties are simply too poorly insulated or have certain characteristics that would make installing the technology challenging. We are therefore looking closely at the potential role of low-carbon heating solutions, such as high-temperature heat pumps, hybrid heat pumps, solid biomass or renewable liquid fuels. They could play a part in the low-carbon heating mix, particularly where heat pumps cannot be used. However, sustainable biomass is a limited resource, and we need to take care to prioritise its use in sectors that offer the greatest opportunity to reduce emissions and where there are the fewest alternative options to decarbonise.
There were some comments on the EPC, which is under a different Department, but I will take that away. However, I thoroughly believe we should always be looking at ways to improve methodology, and I am happy to have further conversations on that, if that is helpful. The forthcoming biomass strategy will review the amount of sustainable biomass available in the United Kingdom and consider how the resource could be best utilised across the economy to help achieve the Government’s net zero and wider environmental commitments. My hon. Friend also mentioned the consultation on the boiler ban. The Government have a commitment to transition to clean heat for the future. My hon. Friend asked me about a date, which I am unable to give at this stage, but I will look into that consultation and get back to him as soon as I can.
We will continue to work with industry stakeholders to build further evidence that will allow us to evaluate what roles these fuels may play in heat, especially where heat pumps cannot be used. Earlier this week, I visited Certas Energy, the UK’s largest distributor of heating oil. I thank it for supplying off-grid customers this winter. I also learned about its plans to transition to low-carbon renewable liquid fuels, and I will take away lots of points from that visit. Through the support we are providing, I assure my hon. Friend that we are acting and will continue to act to ensure that the transition to clean heat is smooth, fair and affordable for rural off-grid households and businesses.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I think the Minister had finished. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will have a quick chat with the Minister afterwards—I can feel it.
Question put and agreed to.