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Live Debate
Commons Chamber
Commons Chamber
Wednesday 30th April 2025
(began 2 weeks ago)
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This debate has concluded
11:34
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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Order. Order. Order.
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Order. Order. We Order. Order. We start Order. Order. We start with questions to the Secretary of State for Wales.
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Question number one.
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Question number one. Thank you Mr Speaker. 2024 British residents took over 7 1/2
British residents took over 7 1/2 million overnight trips. During that
million overnight trips. During that time they spent £2.24 billion. The tourism sector in Wales is thriving.
11:35
John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)
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tourism sector in Wales is thriving. This is clear to see on the visit
from a colleague to the Lakes last month which will benefit from an £11.8 million investment from both
the UK and Welsh Government. According to the Welsh Government, if visitor levy were introduced by all Welsh authorities could potentially raise to £33 million.
11:35
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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With the Welsh bottle scheme
going down the same disastrous dead end at the Scottish bottle deposit
scheme, and the annual cost being put onto Welsh tourism, the
government seems to be creating a hostile environment for business. Adding to the review of the UK
Internal Market, why is this government weakening the bonds of a great union?
11:36
Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)
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Wales is the second best cycling
nation in the whole of the world.
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Shadow Secretary of State. No one is standing.
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No one is standing. Mr Speaker, attacking the Welsh
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Mr Speaker, attacking the Welsh hospitality said with their
hospitality said with their disastrous tourism tax is supposedly a good plan. Yet the Welsh Government impact assessment warns
Government impact assessment warns of a potential loss of over 1/4 of £1 billion of taxpayers money. Last
11:37
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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£1 billion of taxpayers money. Last week Labour pulled the plug on funding for the vital scheme focused
on boosting the Welsh economy. Can the Secretary of State now explain
to taxpayers what the money will actually do for Cardiff's airport?
And does she regret both government decisions? The CEO of Bristol
airport has today openly voiced huge concerns about the Welsh Labour government's decision to spend this
on Cardiff airport with no obvious benefit or transparency. A move
costing £300 additionally to Welsh households.
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Investment in Cardiff airport is a matter for the Welsh Government. I recognise the importance of Cardiff
11:37
Gill German MP (Clwyd North, Labour)
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recognise the importance of Cardiff airport to the economy in the South Wales region. With thousands of jobs
stemming from the airport and the economic ecosystem supporting from
it. Many airlines have added several new destinations and extra flights from Cardiff airport. In the light of the Welsh Government sustained
support for Welsh tourism, I'm delighted to welcome the news made
delighted to welcome the news made
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today that Tui is expanding its service to Cardiff and new routes and flights to places like Tenerife and Majorca. Thank you Mr Speaker. Yesterday
11:38
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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Thank you Mr Speaker. Yesterday Wales lost a musical icon with the passing of Mike Peters from The
passing of Mike Peters from The Alarm. He had an extraordinary
relationship with his fans and it brought thousands of visitors into the area from across the world for his annual event, that Gathering.
Mike Peters, his warmth, and his music put North Wales on the map for visitors far and wide. Would my
right honourable friend join me in paying tribute to him, and to the power that music has bring people
together like no other?
11:38
Dame Nia Griffith MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Llanelli, Labour)
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Secretary of State.
for her question. Music tourism is a huge part of the Welsh economy
visitor economy. I was very sad to hear about the death of Mike Peters.
He and The Alarm the sounds of my teenage years growing up in North
Wales was he was a proud Welshman, a talented musician and a man of incredible resilience. As well as bringing music tourism to North
Wales he dedicated much of his life to charitable work to support cancer patients.
I know he will be missed.
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Number two Mr Speaker.
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Number two Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker I know this is a deeply personal matter for the honourable Member, and I commend his
11:39
Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)
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honourable Member, and I commend his committees campaigning on this vital subject. This Labour government agrees that more must be done to tackle violence against women and
girls. That is why we have introduced a pilot just this week in
Wales which will enable victims and their friends and families and support workers to apply for a Domestic Abuse Protection Order. And
have commissioned the former Justice Secretary David Gauke to conduct an independent review to examine how
sentencing guidelines can best address crimes are violence against women and girls in the future.
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Thank you BusinessWeek. I asked
11:40
Dame Nia Griffith MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Llanelli, Labour)
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the government via a written apology question how many domestic abuse as there are in prison in Wales, and what was the reoffending rate. The
response was that it is not possible to calculate the number of domestic abuse as in prison or the
reoffending rate because their crimes are recorded under the specific offences for which they are
prosecuted. There is no specific
offence of domestic abuse in the law which means we are not recording this competitively. We are not
rehabilitating aggressively, and not protecting victims competitively.
What will the government do if it doesn't create an offence as I have doesn't create an offence as I have proposed, to protect victims and survivors and better identify abusers?
11:40
Ruth Jones MP (Newport West and Islwyn, Labour)
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Thank you Mr Speaker. I
understand that the honourable member is bringing forward a Private Members' Bill. We recognise that
Members' Bill. We recognise that
being able to identify abuse against defenders is critical. This government is not convinced that this bill provides a solution to that challenge. The Ministry of
Justice will continue to consider how they can make improvements to how we identify offenders.
11:41
Dame Nia Griffith MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Llanelli, Labour)
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Chair of the select committee.
new sexual violence support centre in my constituency of Newport West. Along with the Welsh Government
Minister for social justice. This new facility will support many people in my constituency and
surrounding areas for years to come. Will the Minister join me in the
praising the vital work of the staff many of whom provide life-saving support to women in need?
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I pay tribute to the
11:42
Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)
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I pay tribute to the organisation, as I do to my honourable friend. And the many organisations the length and breadth of Wales who help women fleeing
of Wales who help women fleeing domestic violence. As she knows we work closely with the Welsh
Government, indeed only yesterday I was speaking to the cabinet
secretary, and as she would know, the Welsh Government Lord Stone Violence Against Women Act and
domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy back in 2022. We are carefully monitoring progress on it.
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Shadow Secretary of State. The House will be as horrified as
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The House will be as horrified as I am after learning from that shocking report in 'The Times' that a Labour led local authority
a Labour led local authority apparently was showing a PowerPoint to teenagers where they were urged
to teenagers where they were urged to seek consent from their partner before choking them during sex. It
before choking them during sex. It is abhorrent to even attempt to normalise strangling in a loving relationship, indeed any
relationship, indeed any relationship. Mr Speaker, it is important to note that the council
in question did not categorically deny this at first.
But did so after the rightful backlash. Does the
the rightful backlash. Does the Minister agree, it is is such appalling content that is even considered to be shown to pupils in
considered to be shown to pupils in Welsh schools and it should be totally unacceptable. She undertake totally unacceptable. She undertake to hold her colleagues to account on this part of the so-called Welsh curriculum?
11:43
Dame Nia Griffith MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Llanelli, Labour)
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Indeed it is very very
distressing to hear the honourable member has to say. What I would like
to say to her is that the independent pornography review is a wide-ranging and thorough piece of
work which assesses the effectiveness of pornography
11:44
Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)
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legislation and enforcement. The reviews final report was published on 27 February. The findings of the
on 27 February. The findings of the review continue to be assessed by the government. It is right that governments take time to understand this complex and deeply important
this complex and deeply important topic. A further update will be provided in due course. If I just
provided in due course. If I just may stress the point, the review recommends making non-fatal strangulation in pornography clearly
strangulation in pornography clearly and explicitly illegal to possess,
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distribute, and publish. Violence against women and girls
I think we can all agree it's an all too frequent occurrence. The ONS has
published data which are shockingly revealed 4.3% of women between age
16 and 59 in England and Wales have suffered sexual assault in 2023/24.
This is up from 3.4% in 2009/10.
Women and girls will only truly be safe if we rid society of the
11:45
Dame Nia Griffith MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Llanelli, Labour)
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appalling rape gangs. A Welsh rape gang survivor has publicly called
for an inquiry into this. Has the Minister met with the Safeguarding Minister to reflect this and deliver
Minister to reflect this and deliver for victims in Wales? If not, I ask again, on behalf of women and girls
again, on behalf of women and girls who want answers and to be heard, and to see action in Wales and wider, will she push the Welsh
wider, will she push the Welsh Government to use the inquiries act
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2005 to ensure Welsh victims gets justice? Mr Speaker, the last government
sat on their hands and failed to deliver on the recommendations of the Independent Inquiry into Child
Sexual Abuse. This government has already announced a cognitive set of
plans to implement all of the recommendations, to prevent the horror of child sexual abuse.
Including the introduction of mandatory reporting, the creation of a new child protection authority,
and removal of the three-year statute of limitation period for personal injury claims for victims
of child sexual abuse.
I would stress that this is a reserved
matter, and my colleagues in government have frequent discussions with colleagues in the Welsh Government.
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With your permission, I will take
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With your permission, I will take questions very and six together. --
11:46
Aphra Brandreth MP (Chester South and Eddisbury, Conservative)
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questions very and six together. -- Three and six. Just this morning I
had the pleasure of visiting in the Jubilee room, I would strongly recommend, a real display of Welsh
farming and food produce. We are as
a government so busy committed to the farming sector. We protected the farm budget at its current level and allocated 337 million to the Welsh
Government in the Autumn Budget. The
last government in their budget have used this to maintain the basic payment scheme, providing much- needed support for farmers across Wales.
A budget as she knows that
the Tory implied Senedd members have
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tried to block. I would like to draw attention to my registers of interest. Not only is Labour's family farm tax
11:47
Dame Nia Griffith MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Llanelli, Labour)
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is Labour's family farm tax threatening the future of farming in Wales. It is indeed a direct attack
on farmers right across the UK. In England, we saw the SFI scheme close
with no notice. Meanwhile in labours Spring Statement, they brought forward increases in National Insurance, hitting all farmers once
again. As well as their tax on
double pickups and holiday lets, penalising farmers who have actively diversify. Can the Minister explain
to the Welsh agricultural sector why this government is carrying out an all-out assault on their way of
life?
11:47
John Lamont MP (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, Conservative)
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If I may just pick up on the point about the National Insurance contributions. As she will know, many farmers employ one or two
people and as such, that is why they would come in the category of some of the smallest businesses and we
have made sure that we protect them
by doubling the Employment Allowance to 10,500. Meaning over half of small and micro businesses will pay less or no National Insurance contributions at all. And if I may
just point out that her Senate colleagues voted against the budget.
-- Senedd colleagues voted against the budget for Welsh farmers in the
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Welsh leaded only a few weeks ago. The Minister seems to have
11:48
Dame Nia Griffith MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Llanelli, Labour)
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The Minister seems to have absolutely no grasp whatsoever on the constant struggle our family farms in Wales and across the United
farms in Wales and across the United Kingdom are facing. Because of a lack of support in the labour Spring Statement and also Labour's family
farm tax. Farming families are not multimillionaires, they are striving
to make a profit, with many earning less than minimum wage. Will the Minister finally accept that farms
are crucial to the UK's food security and the government should support them and scrap them
indicative family farm tax?
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We absolutely do applaud the work farmers do. And they are vital to
farmers do. And they are vital to our food security. But as he will know, there are many ways in which we have supported farmers, including the 337 million money given to them
11:49
Carolyn Harris MP (Neath and Swansea East, Labour)
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the 337 million money given to them in the budget this year. And passed on by Welsh Government Ministers to our farmers in Wales. And when he
brings up again the issue of the
inheritance tax, I would just remind him that we are maintaining significant levels of relief from
significant levels of relief from inheritance tax the on what is available to others and compared to
available to others and compared to a position before 1992. Where inheritance tax is due, those liable for child can pay any liability on for child can pay any liability on the relevant asset over 10 annual instalments in just three.
11:49
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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The Welsh Government budget
contained over 300 million to support Welsh farmers. Is it not the
case that Plaid Cymru and the Tories put Welsh farmers livelihoods at
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risk by voting against the Welsh Government's spring term Budget? My honourable friend is
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My honourable friend is absolutely right.
11:50
Dave Doogan MP (Angus and Perthshire Glens, Scottish National Party)
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Question four.
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Question four. We are negotiating a new partnership with the EU and believe
that securing a broad-based security partnership, closer co-operation on law and order and tackling barriers to trade will boost our economies,
keep us safe and improve family finances. Since coming into government, I have worked with UK
and Welsh Government colleagues to drive over £1.5 billion of private investment from the likes of Eric
investment from the likes of Eric Holding, Copenhagen in the structure partners into Wales, creating hundreds of jobs and laying the ground for thousands more.
11:50
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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Only this government can deliver cold comfort and words all in the
same sentence. The fact of the matter is that after the Labour Tory
hard Brexit, the wash economy suffered by 4 billion, trade has gone down by one million and Wales
has lost 1 billion of union structure and develop funding. On top of that, the Labour budget has kicked them even further down the
kicked them even further down the track. Well she can stand up to her Westminster masters and finally do something in the interests of the people of Wales?
11:51
Jessica Morden MP (Newport East, Labour)
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Welsh businesses, both large and
small, tell us time and time again they are being held back redtape.
And we need to tackle the barriers to trade to help drive the investment, jobs and growth both the
UK and EU economies. Nationalists can continue their obsession with constitution, putting up borders,
constitution, putting up borders, not breaking down barriers and raising taxes on working people like they have done in Scotland. they have done in Scotland.
11:51
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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Closer collaboration between the
UK and the EU on defence and on defence spending is a very important part of strengthening our relationship. And also will be important for the Welsh economy, including companies like... Where I
visited recently, who produce specialist arteries for defence and other applications. Can the Secretary of State say a bit more
about how increased defence spending
will aid the Welsh economy and companies like this, particularly in advanced Manufacturing and in supply chains? chains?
11:52
Rt Hon Liz Saville Roberts MP (Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Plaid Cymru)
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Can I thank my honourable friend or her question. She is absolutely right about the potential for
growth. This government's commitment to increased defence spending means that our strong defence
manufacturing base in Wales and the skilled jobs it supports has real potential for growth. The top five
suppliers to the Ministry of Defence all have a footprint in Wales and alongside that, is a strong supply chain. And the forthcoming
industrial strategy will set out more details about how that advanced manufacturing base will get
government support.
(SPEAKS WELSH). Reports over new EU-UK strategic partnership to
reduce aid barriers will at last be a welcome boost to Wales food and
drink juices, given 75 % of the sector exports go to the EU. All producers from farm to fork of wonderful Welsh produce makes a
vital contribution to our economy. Will she join me in celebrating all Wales food producers and farmers, especially those at... At the show
on Monday and even more so those from Carmarthenshire here today?
11:53
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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Thank you, I'm delighted to support the Welsh food and farming industry and absolutely concur with
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her comments. On another note now, policy and
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On another note now, policy and practice show that 10 UK local authority areas worst hit by
authority areas worst hit by Labour's welfare cuts, nearly half of them are in Wales. That is 190,000 people in Wales affected,
hitting our post-industrial quarrying and coalmining communities hard. How does she explain to her
hard. How does she explain to her colleagues in Wales wide the communities where Labour used to be
communities where Labour used to be strongest should now suffer so much because of her government's crawl welfare cuts?
11:53
Q5. What steps she is taking to strengthen the Union. (903795)
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She might know that none of those reforms have actually gone into
effect yet, so nobody has been affected by them. But we have
inherited a Tory welfare system that is the worst of all worlds. The wrong incentives, discouraging
people from working, the people who really need a safety net still not getting the dignity and support that
they need and deserve. And the taxpayer undoing an ever spiralling bill. It is unsustainable, it is
indefensible and it is unfair.
11:54
Andrew Ranger MP (Wrexham, Labour)
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Question five.
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With your permission, I will
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With your permission, I will answer questions five and 11 together. In Wales, the partnership between our two Labour Government is delivering on the people's
delivering on the people's priorities. NHS waiting list have
priorities. NHS waiting list have fallen for three consecutive months, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs in every corner of Wales through our freeports, investment
11:54
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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zones, support for steelworkers, inward investments and riding green industries. -- Driving green
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industries. Supporting people into work is not just the right thing to do
not just the right thing to do economically, morally as well. I therefore welcome the recently announced UK Trailblazer program in
announced UK Trailblazer program in North Wales. That will do away with the one size fits all approach and will instead make -- meet people
will instead make -- meet people where they are, give them a greater chance to stable and good employment. While the Secretary of State agree that this shows the
State agree that this shows the power partnership we now have and
power partnership we now have and the commitment that no one will be left behind on both sides of the M4? And will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating Wrexham
football team on the historic back- to-back to back promotions? With
promotion to the EFL Championship.
11:55
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Many congratulations to Wrexham, really delighted to see them
promoted and very sad that Cardiff were relegated. My right honourable friend is right, the Government understands that work is crucial
both to our health and well-being but also to improving our living standards. That is why last week we
announced a £10 million pilot in... Port talbot and... To support people
back into work. We will not sit by and let the Tories broken welfare system continue. When which has
system continue.
When which has condemned people to a life without work. These Trailblazer projects will help more people in Wales back into secure, well-paid jobs. into secure, well-paid jobs.
11:56
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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Since this UK Labour government was elected, over to million extra
GP appointments have been delivered in England and thanks to a record- breaking 21 billion budget
settlement, waiting lists in Wales have gone down three months in a row. Does the Secretary of State
agree with me that our NHS and our country are safer and stronger when
you have two governments working together to make devolution work and
not tear our union apart? not tear our union apart?
11:57
Jim Allister KC MP (North Antrim, Traditional Unionist Voice)
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I could not agree more with my honourable friend. Driving down NHS
waiting lists is a shared priority for both the UK and the Welsh Labour governments. As she says, waiting
list have fallen for three consecutive months as a result of our governments working together. Meanwhile, the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru voted against an extra
Plaid Cymru voted against an extra £600 million for Welsh NHS. An reform would sell it off to the highest bidder. highest bidder.
11:57
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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Does the Secretary of State think
that the imposition from tomorrow of a parcels border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland will
Britain and Northern Ireland will strengthen the union? Given that parcels, business to business from
parcels, business to business from Wales or any other part of the UK to Northern Ireland will now be subject
Northern Ireland will now be subject to EU customs declarations and cheques? How does that strengthen the union? the union?
11:57
Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
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Can I thank the honourable member for his question. As I said to an
earlier question, we want to make
sure that trading is made easier, that we remove the redtape and barriers and those are the discussions we are having at the moment with the EU. moment with the EU.
11:58
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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What strengthens this union is the nations of Wales, Scotland and
Northern Ireland intertwine with England. As the Gaelic nations of
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and the cultures and the history neighbouring together. Also the
benefits of the union in employment, jobs and opportunity, it is the constitution as their service and
uniform, all those things bring us together in a way that nothing else
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can. So this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland can have a better union and can do better together. Can I thank the honourable
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Can I thank the honourable gentlemen... For his question. I definitely believe that the four
11:58
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definitely believe that the four nations together in the UK are stronger together.
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Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
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Liberal Democrat spokesperson. Thank you. There is no greater threat to our union than the feeling
threat to our union than the feeling that workers in one nation matter less than those in another. People
11:59
Rt Hon Jo Stevens MP, The Secretary of State for Wales (Cardiff East, Labour)
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less than those in another. People in and around Port Talbot right now feel like they have had a rotten deal. So can the Minister explain
why the deal that her government did with Tata meant that workers who had
been in the company for longer than 25 years did not have that service reflected in their redundancy
payments? And why workers wishing to access the retraining elements had to forego their rights to the
enhanced redundancy payment to? And
is it true that reportedly as of February only three people so far
have applied for that scheme?
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Thank you. Tata made the decision
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Thank you. Tata made the decision to close the blast furnaces in January 2024, six months before the general election. They closed the co-governance in March 2024 and
co-governance in March 2024 and agreement for the grant that EAS had already been done and he might
remember that blast furnace five close down on polling day on general election day. The timeline was fixed
election day. The timeline was fixed in order for that electric arc furnace to be delivered. In 10 weeks, we negotiated a better deal.
12:00
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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weeks, we negotiated a better deal. Better terms and protections for the whole workforce at Port Talbot. No
immediate compulsory redundancies, the best voluntary redundancy package ever offered I Tata to its
UK workforce. We say 5,000 jobs and 385 acres of land are being released
for development and regeneration and future opportunities at the site.
All in all this was £1.3 billion investment deal, very different from
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the situation in Scunthorpe. We now come to Prime Minister's
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We now come to Prime Minister's Question number one Mr Speaker.
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Question number one Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, yesterday evening, Royal Air Force typhoons
successfully conducted strikes against boutique military targets in Yemen in a joint operation without
Yemen in a joint operation without US allies. This action was in line
US allies. This action was in line with long-standing policy of the UK government to defend freedom of in the Red Sea. After Houthi attacks
fuelled regional instability and risk economic security for families
in the UK. Mr Speaker I'm pleased to say that all UK aircraft and
personnel returned safely.
And I pay tribute to the professionalism and bravery of all our service men and
servicewomen. The Defence Secretary is making a statement medially after PMQs. Mr Speaker can I Prime
Minister Mark Rutte on his election in Canada. Our two countries are
closer to the Commonwealth allies
partners and friends. We will deepen economic partnership to help people
in the UK. Can I everyone across the house including members of this House and the Press Gallery who ran
12:02
Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)
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marathons in London and Manchester. In particular the honourable member
In particular the honourable member for Gordon and Buckley for the
fastest run of any female MP. And of course the Shadow Justice Secretary who I'm reliably informed is still
who I'm reliably informed is still running. This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and
with ministerial colleagues and others, in addition to my duties of the house I have further such
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meetings later today. Thank you Mr Speaker. I would like to associate myself with the
like to associate myself with the remarks of the prior Minister about the professionalism of our Armed
the professionalism of our Armed Forces and also congratulate Mark Carney on his election as prior
Carney on his election as prior Minister in Canada. And everyone who took part in the London Marathon.
took part in the London Marathon. Both my daughters have done it it is something I cannot do any more sadly.
Later today, I'm introducing
sadly. Later today, I'm introducing a bill to guarantee Parliament has the final say on any trade deal
including any agreement with
including any agreement with President Trump. This isn't new it is exactly what Labour promised to do in an official policy paper put forward in 2001. I'm asking this
forward in 2001. I'm asking this government to keep its promise. Currently Members of Parliament have
Currently Members of Parliament have no vote. They have no voice on trade deals, so will the prime minister...
deals, so will the prime minister...
12:03
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Order. I think you are on a
12:03
Dan Tomlinson MP (Chipping Barnet, Labour)
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Order. I think you are on a
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marathon your. This prime minister. Mr Speaker can extend our congratulations to his daughters for
congratulations to his daughters for running the marathon. In relation to trade deals, the government retains
trade deals, the government retains the right of Italy to strike trade deals delivering growth and jobs and opportunities for working people. We clearly set out in our manifesto,
clearly set out in our manifesto, and that is what we are doing. Parliament does have a well established role in scrutinising and
12:04
Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
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established role in scrutinising and ratifying these deals. He knows that was strengthened under the last
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Labour government as he references. Thank you Mr Speaker. There is going to have to be a coming
going to have to be a coming together of Reform and the Conservative party in some way. A
12:04
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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deal, AIPAC, or a merger. These aren't my words but those of the most senior Tory elected public
office in the country, the mayor of the Tees Valley. If senior Tories
are plotting it and the leader of the opposition won't deny it, does
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it now means the only way to stop this part is to vote Labour? No need to answer. No
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No need to answer. No responsibility for that. Leader of
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the Opposition. Thank you Mr Speaker. On Monday
the Prime Minister's Safeguarding Minister admitted on the Floor of the House that there was a cover-up
the House that there was a cover-up of that child rape gang scandal. Does the Prime Minister think we should expose this cover-up?
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should expose this cover-up? Mr Speaker, this is obviously a
serious issue. I oversaw the first grooming gang prosecution which was
in Rochdale more than a decade ago. There is a contrast here because the leader of the opposition, when she
was Minister for Children women and equality never raised this issue in the house in three years. The shadow
12:06
Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
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Home Secretary held 352 external meetings during 20 months, how many
meetings during 20 months, how many were on this issue? Not one. And they failed of course to implement a single recommendation from the independent inquiry sexual
independent inquiry sexual exportation. My position is clear. Where there is evidence, the police
Where there is evidence, the police
should investigate and it should be appropriate prosecutions. That is route number one. Route number two, we should implement existing recommendations which did expose what went wrong.
The recommendations
12:06
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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what went wrong. The recommendations were not implemented by the last government. They are being promoted by this one. We are providing for
local inquiries. We are delivering truth and justice for victims, more
than the party opposite did in 14 long years.
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Mr Speaker, in the last year the Conservative government we had a gangs task force that found 500 perpetrators. Affecting thousands of
perpetrators. Affecting thousands of victims. We launched that inquiry
victims. We launched that inquiry but more still needs to be done. It is now four months since I asked him for a full national inquiry. Instead
12:06
Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
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for a full national inquiry. Instead he promised five local inquiries. There will be one in Oldham. He now
named where the other four inquiries will be?
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Mr speak up we are providing for local inquiries. They have got so
local inquiries. They have got so much to say now, why did they not
much to say now, why did they not implement single recommendation in the 14 years they had an office? We are taking forward the
12:07
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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recommendations already in place about the change that needs to be taken for top they sat on a shelf under the last government. We are
acting on them. We are providing for local inquiries. We are investing
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more in delivering truth than they ever did. He cannot name a single place
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He cannot name a single place because nothing is happening. He
stood there at the Dispatch Box promised five local inquiries, nothing is happening. On the last day of term he had his minister come
day of term he had his minister come out to water down the promise to say they would provide funding. That is
they would provide funding. That is not good enough. At least 50 towns are affected by rape gangs, places like Peterborough, Derby, Birmingham, Nottingham, Leicester
Birmingham, Nottingham, Leicester Rotherham, Preston.
Is he dragging his heels on this weekly does not
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want labour cover-ups exposed? Mr Speaker, I spent five years
12:08
Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
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Mr Speaker, I spent five years
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Mr Speaker, I spent five years prosecuting this. Mr Speaker, I was the prosecutor that brought the first case. And when that file was
first case. And when that file was brought to my attention, I noticed that one of the defendants had not been prosecuted previously. Far from
covering up, I asked for that file so I could have a look at it, and on
the back of that, I changed the
entire approach to prosecutions. It was then lauded by the government that we were doing the right thing and brought the prosecution.
So my
record is going after when I thought something had go wrong and putting
it right. She stayed silent throughout their years in government
and so did their entire Frontbench.
12:09
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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He is not the director of public persecutions any more. He is the Prime Minister. People want to know
12:09
Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
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what is going to do now not talk about what he did years ago. We are asking for a full national inquiry. Andy Burnham wants national inquiry,
12:09
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Andy Burnham wants national inquiry, he is Labour. Harriet Harman wants one was the member for Rotherham wants one. All of the victims I've
wants one. All of the victims I've met full national inquiry. Keeps
talking about local inquiries yet they have not got going. They haven't got going because local authorities don't want to investigate themselves. Local inquiries cannot force witnesses to
inquiries cannot force witnesses to appear. Local inquiries cannot force people to give evidence under oath.
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Why won't he have a national inquiry? Mr Speaker, we have had a
12:10
Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
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national inquiry. We have had recommendations. There are hundreds
recommendations. There are hundreds of recommendations that have been made in relation to this issue. It is a serious issue. I strongly
is a serious issue. I strongly believe that we should implement the recommendations that have already been made. That is what we are
been made. That is what we are doing. I strongly believe we should listen to victims and we have been
listening to victims on the side for decades. When working with victims for decades.
In relation to what
they want which is local inquiries, we have set those local inquiries
up.
12:10
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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He says we should listen to victims but the victims want a
national inquiry. We haven't had a national inquiry. We had the child sexual abuse inquiry which the
Conservatives launch. There is still more to be done. It did uncover the scandal in detail. In Manchester
last year authorities were still covering up abuse. The local inquiry chair there has quit. Bradford
Council, an area of some of the worst abusers, refuses any inquiry,
local or national. Whether it is the streets of Birmingham or the town
hall in Bradford, it is chaos and cover-ups with Labour councils.
When will he show leadership and do the right thing?
12:10
Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
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The right thing is to implement the recommendations that we have got. Which is what they palpably
failed to do in government. The right thing to do is to have a national inquiry is that we need
which is what the victims want. The right thing is to invest in our
criminal justice system so we can bring people to justice. They have absolutely collapsed the criminal justice system. Prosecutions for rape under their watch, they went
rape under their watch, they went
down to record lows.
Investment in prosecuting these cases went down. The record was abysmal, they should
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hang their heads in shame. This is just distraction tactics. He has not read the recommendations
12:11
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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He has not read the recommendations were to be had you would know none of them will tackle this issue. If I
was standing where he is, we would have had a national inquiry months ago. This issue is personal for me.
I have met many of the victims. This
is about the protection of children. Nothing else is more important. In
the last few days, I have been to Wiltshire, Lincolnshire, Northumberland, Kent, and all of them have outstanding children social care. This is because they
are all run by conservatives.
That is the difference that Conservative
councillors made. Isn't the choice tomorrow between chaos and cover-ups under Labour councils or better services under the Conservatives?
12:12
Nadia Whittome MP (Nottingham East, Labour)
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She says they would have a
national inquiry. 14 years and they
did not do it. It is so hollow. And yes, tomorrow is the first opportunity the country has two past their verdict on the Leader of the
Opposition and the party opposite after the general election. Have
they changed, have they learned? We
will see her next week.
12:12
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Thank you Mr Speaker. I wish the leader of the opposition. Weapon I
think victims of child sexual abuse. It is damaging victims and she cared about child protection she would not
do it. It is a disgrace, you are a disgrace. New data shows that in
March last year in my constituency,
64% of children were in poverty. The highest proportion in the whole of the East Midlands and a damning
indictment of the previous Conservative government. One of the proudest achievements of the last Labour covenant was the action it
took on child poverty.
Can the Prime Minister to confirm that this Labour government will do anything in its
government will do anything in its power to eliminate child poverty? And that its task force has not ruled out abolishing the two-child benefit limit? It is the single most benefit limit? It is the single most effective way to pull children out of poverty.
12:13
Rt Hon Ed Davey MP (Kingston and Surbiton, Liberal Democrat)
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She is actually right to raise the disgraceful record of the previous government which saw an
extra 900,000 children in poverty. I am proud of Labour's record in
reducing child poverty which is what we do in government, and the task
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force will exploit every lever to reduce child poverty. Leader of the Liberal Democrats are Ed Davey.
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are Ed Davey. Thank you Mr Speaker. On behalf of my party can I send our
12:14
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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of my party can I send our
congratulations to Mark Carney and the Liberal Party in Canada. We wish
them well as they continue to stand up strongly to President Trump tariffs and threats. Canada has learnt what happens when you do a
trade deal with President Trump. He can't be trusted to stick with it. The Prime Minister that didn't answer my question last week, he
didn't answer my honourable friend the member for Woking just now. Let
me ask again, will the government give members of this House a vote on
the floor of this house on any deal he agrees with President Trump, yes or no?
12:14
Rt Hon Ed Davey MP (Kingston and Surbiton, Liberal Democrat)
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Mr Speaker, we are in
negotiations with the US in relation to a deal. We will act obviously in
the national interest make sure that if there is a deal it is the right deal for our country. If it is
secured it will go through the note procedures of this house.
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Mr Speaker I'm very disappointed in that reply, it is not a yes or no
in that reply, it is not a yes or no response. We want a vote and we will keep pressing him and his government on that. Turning to a domestic issue
on that. Turning to a domestic issue now, the member for Dorking and
now, the member for Dorking and Horley has taken up the cause of Fiona, who is autistic adult son, Christopher, was horrifically exploited and then murdered by a
12:15
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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exploited and then murdered by a convicted criminal. As ITV News has
reported, when Fiona tried to get a mental capacity assessment for her
son, she was dismissed. So Christopher never got the support that might have saved his life. We are going to try to change the law,
so families concerns over the mental
so families concerns over the mental capacity of a loved one have to be considered. Will the Prime Minister to give his personal backing to that
to give his personal backing to that change, to stop another tragedy like change, to stop another tragedy like
12:16
Jayne Kirkham MP (Truro and Falmouth, Labour )
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I thank him for raising that terrible question and I think the
thought of the whole house are with Christopher's family and friends and those affected by this, will
certainly look into what else we can do and if there are further details that can be given to me of the
particular case, I will make sure we follow it up.
12:16
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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I would like to start by congratulating Truro city football club, who have gone from
homelessness to league champions in
one season. In Cornwall, clean energy is a huge opportunity. We are fortunate to have vast natural
resources, onshore offshore wind, geothermal and tidal. We have a strategically vital port and a workforce ready to step up. I
welcome that the community hospital will be getting new solar panels and benefiting from those first
investment made by GB Energy. As we pursue our clean power plan, will the Prime Minister confirm this is just the beginning of that
investment in renewables in Cornwall?
12:17
Nigel Farage MP (Clacton, Reform UK)
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I add my congratulations to Truro. Clean energy investments are
powering our plan for change. And
that is just the beginning, we will
go further. 200 schools and hundreds of NHS sites across the country will benefit from GB Energy's first solar projects. Including Falmouth community hospital in my honourable
friend community. Hospital say 45,000p a year of their energy bills
with that money going back to the frontline services. That is the
better future we are building, give the patient, good for jobs, growth and our energy security.
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To date so far this year, 10,000 young, undocumented males have
young, undocumented males have illegally crossed the English
Channel into our country. A 40 % increase on this time last year. Many coming from countries that are somewhat alien two hours. They are being housed at a cost of billions
12:18
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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being housed at a cost of billions of pounds a year in hotels and
increasingly in private rent homes. The effect on communities is one of a sense of deep unfairness, actually bordering on resentment. In... Alone
there are 750 of these young men...
Is it not time to admit that smash the gangs was nothing more than an
election slogan... And isn't it time to declare a national emergency and
act accordingly?
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We are passing aboard is built with extensive powers to smash the
gangs. These are terrorist -- powers that could powers to the police to intercept where they think the
intercept where they think the suspects are committing people smuggling, vile trade. We must take control of our borders after the
control of our borders after the last government lost control. What
12:19
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last government lost control. What did his his party do? Did they support those measures to smash the
gang? No, they went in the lobby this lot and a new coalition to vote against them and let's be clear what about those party means. It means a
boat to charge for the NHS, it means a vote against foreign policy and
vote against workers rights. And now here he is recruiting Liz Truss as his new top adviser. As he was
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cheering on the mini-Budget. Four years my constituency have suffered from a lack of local health
12:19
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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suffered from a lack of local health provision next month that will into
change. Thanks to a new partnership that I built with our local NHS,
Wigan athletic and Wigan Warriors. At a centre for excellent in Wigan's
sport. This will be a shining example of shifting healthcare from
hospitals into communities. So can I urge the Prime Minister to continue with our Plan for Change and ignore
the Member for Clacton, who for
decades has pushed to dismantle our NHS, so that my constituents must
pay to see their doctor.
pay to see their doctor.
12:20
Liz Jarvis MP (Eastleigh, Liberal Democrat)
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I see the Member for Clacton complaining but what did he take? He said we're going to have to move to an insurance based system of
healthcare, his words. If you can afford it, you pay. Not under our watch. While he is busy taking Liz
Truss's advice and falling over... We are driving down waiting list, extra appointments delivered and
waiting-list smashed -- slashed in
the poorest areas, including during the winter, we are rebuilding our NHS, rebuilding our future and
delivering working people.
12:20
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Just before Christmas, thousands of my constituents in Eastleigh were left without water after yet another
incident involving Southern Water. The latest in a long series of
issues including outages and sewage dumping in our precious chalks river itching. Yet this month, my constituents face water bill hikes
of 47 %. Does the Prime Minister understand why my constituents are so angry about this and what
so angry about this and what reassurances can he give my constituents that Southern Water and Ofwat will be held to account?
12:21
Sam Carling MP (North West Cambridgeshire, Labour)
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I thank of raising this and the party opposite should apologise to
her constituents for allowing record sewage into our waterways. Our Water
Act will clean up our rivers, lakes
and seas under new powers which came into effect last week, in fact, water bosses can now face years in
jail for concealing sewage spills.
We ban the payment of bonuses and introduce new powers and we are delivering a major review through our water commission and I will reassure the member will not reassure the member will not hesitate to take further steps.
12:21
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Listening to residents in North
West Cambridgeshire there is a clear message. People want local police at
the time and resources to get to know Kreminna areas and tackle it at route and I know our Labour mayor
has committed to that. Can the Prime Minister update residents across
Minister update residents across came champion to share how our planned changes tackling crime and antisocial behaviour and boosting police ranks by 30,000 officers to be visible in more communities? be visible in more communities?
12:22
Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)
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The party opposite decimated neighbourhood police and crimes like
shoplifting and antisocial behaviour ran riot. I can tell what we are
doing to the Plan for Change, extra police officers, extra PCSOs and more special constables. On top of
that, and named officer for every community and more teams out in our town centres on Friday and Saturday
nights. That is what you get with a Labour mayor working with a Labour government to deliver change Cambridge and Peterborough.
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Eastbourne war veterans, a staff
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Eastbourne war veterans, a staff sergeant who is a veteran who sustained injuries while serving our country, she was awarded military
12:23
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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country, she was awarded military compensation. Because military compensation is currently considered
income by this government, her Pension Credit has been cut from £77
a week to just £11 a week. We have met with the relevant minister to
try to address this, to no avail. So I want to ask Prime Minister, with
that 80th anniversary of the day just next week, will he meet with
just next week, will he meet with Pauline who is in the gallery, and I, to address this injustice and ensure no veteran is penalised for
ensure no veteran is penalised for serving our country? -- VE day.
serving our country? -- VE day.
12:23
Ms Julie Minns MP (Carlisle, Labour)
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Can I thank him for raising this important issue with us. We will always stand up those who serve our
country and I pay tribute to Pauline for her service and I will make sure she gets the appropriate meeting that she wants and needs to discuss
her specific case.
12:24
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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This week, thanks to this Labour government, hundreds of free breakfast clubs have opened across
our country. Will the Prime Minister join me in sending good wishes to
the staff and pupils at schools in
my constituency, which are among the first to benefit from this important scheme? And can he confirm that this
is just the start of Labour's plan for change to deliver for working
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parents? Let me pay tribute to all the staff in her constituency working in
12:24
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staff in her constituency working in the breakfast clubs, which of course
deliver free breakfast clubs, 30 minutes of free childcare, saving working parents £450 a year over the
first 750 across the country. There
will be many more to come. We of course are also saving parents £50 a
course are also saving parents £50 a year by making school uniforms cheaper. Something the Leader of the Opposition ordered all her troops to vote against.
12:25
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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The playing of music and love
videos on public transport without headphones is becoming increasingly common. The various bylaws about
antisocial behaviour clearly not
working. The British Transport Police cuts are bound to make province worse. The Prime Minister back the lid down plan to have an
important anchor for city -- have a
campaign to plug in headphones? Perhaps we might even encourage the
un-civic minority to take their feet the seat?
12:25
Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP (Clapham and Brixton Hill, Labour)
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He raises an important question about antisocial behaviour, they are
laughing about it, that sums up what they did the last 14 years. He knows
there are already strict rules in place to prevent antisocial
behaviour, including fines but we are focused on tackling antisocial behaviour, it is not low-level, it
does affect people and their communities, their sense of safety and what they can do without own lives. That is why an additional 1.2
billion has been set aside for policing, 13,000 new neighbourhood police officers, respect orders and a named officer in every community.
We take this seriously, they laugh about it.
12:26
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Rent in my constituency is
becoming exceedingly unaffordable, with the ONS most recent data estimating that the average price
for rent had risen by over 10 % in the last year whilst average wages
have not risen at the same level. I know several Metro Mayors are calling for the power to control rents in the region to help tackle
the issue. And the steps in the Renters' Rights Bill Market rents at
the market level are positive. As landlords are the one setting the market rates, renters in my constituency are fearful this will
not be enough to protect them from rising rents.
Can the Prime Minister tell me what steps this government is taking to bring down rental prices?
12:27
Sir Bernard Jenkin MP (Harwich and North Essex, Conservative)
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She is absolutely right to raise
this important issue. Communities across the country are facing the consequences of the utter failure of
the party opposite to build enough homes. Our Renters' Rights Bill improves the system for 11 million
private renters. Locking demands -- blocking demands for multiple months rent in advance and stopping no fault evictions, something they said
they would do over and over again and never got round to doing. It is backed up by major planning reforms, our new homes accelerator and
building new homes, parts about 1.5 million homes we will build across the country that are desperately
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needed. Does the Prime Minister recalled from our history that even during
12:27
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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from our history that even during
the Blitz day Moura hest continued performing her piano recitals at the National Gallery, including the
performance of German music like bark... As a trustee of the
Parliament cry and as a singer, can I ask him to lend his support to
Parliament's own VE day celebration that will be next Wednesday evening
in Westminster Hall, when we will perform in the presence of His Royal Highness the Duke of Kent and both
speakers of both Houses, not only
that but the music of our other allies and of course in British music too and tickets are still available.
12:28
Sarah Hall MP (Warrington South, Labour )
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Can I wish him the very best of
luck. It will be a fantastic event and it is just one of the many
important celebrations that are taking place to commemorate VE day. I would encourage the whole house to
buy those remaining tickets to go along and attend the concert, which I think is in Westminster Hall. As
well as the many street parties and other events that will be across the country. I look forward to paying my
own tribute on VE day but I wish him luck.
luck.
12:29
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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I welcome the action taken by the government to fix our NHS and delivered 2 million more appointments, something my constituents are already benefiting
from. Together with one and holding NHS Trust, recently submitted a
proposal for a new urgent treatment centre and out let -- and out patient facility. We have no urgent
treatment centre. It would reduce A&E waiting times and deliver
100,000 appointments every year. With the Prime Minister or Health With the Prime Minister or Health Secretary agreed to meet with me and local health partners to discuss this transformational project?
12:29
Layla Moran MP (Oxford West and Abingdon, Liberal Democrat)
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I'm happy to make sure my honourable friend meets the Health
Secretary. We have got waiting list down for six months now in a row. Delivering 3 million extra
appointments. Doubling the rate at which waiting-list are falling, including in her trust. Earlier this
week we froze prescription charges at under £10. There is a lot that is
being done, a lot more to do but our planned changes working, getting the NHS back on its feet. -- Our Plan for Change.
12:30
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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The nondisclosure agreement was entirely one-sided, gagging me but
not the men or the executives involved. It covers not just business matters but everything painful I had enjoyed. I ended up in
hospital. -- I endured. These are
hospital. -- I endured. These are the words of a victim who suffered intolerable sexual misconduct in her workplace. Does the Prime Minister
workplace. Does the Prime Minister agree with me and members across the South that the misuse of NGOs in cases like this are totally unacceptable and if so, will he help
unacceptable and if so, will he help us in amending the Employment Rights Bill going to the laws now to stop this pervasive practice once and for this pervasive practice once and for all? -- Misuse of NDA's.
12:30
Deirdre Costigan MP (Ealing Southall, Labour)
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She is right to highlight the
misuse of NDA's and I don't think anyone would countenance the misuse of NDA's, particularly in the case as serious as the one she cited,
which is why we are looking at anything we can do to make sure they are not misused.
12:31
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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After 14 years of Conservative government who let fly-tipping
increase to record levels across the country, my constituents in Ealing
Southall will welcome the Prime Minister's announcement today that fly-tippers will now face tough
action. New technology for enforcement and up to five years in
prison. Can the Prime Minister set
out what other steps he is taking to help councils tackle fly-tipping and the difference this will make to
the difference this will make to
12:31
Rt Hon Mark Francois MP (Rayleigh and Wickford, Conservative)
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Under the last government we saw 1 million incidents of fly-tipping. In the Conservative councils we see
enforcement down and fly-tipping up. The Tory led Northumberland where
instances of fly-tipping are 76%. We
are introducing tough powers to seize and crush the vehicles of
commercial fly-tippers who now face up to five years in prison for operating illegally. That is Labour government clearing up the mess left
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the party opposite. Thank you Mr Speaker. Prime
Minister, one week tomorrow, the whole nation will come together to commemorate VE day. Those who fought
commemorate VE day. Those who fought in World War II including my own
12:32
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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in World War II including my own father will often attest that no one did more to maintain morale in
adversity than Dame Vera Lynn. The forces sweetheart. A doughty band of
campaigners for several years have tried to create a national in her
honour. I'm pleased to tell the House they now have a stunning
design because they have a site appropriately at Dover. They have already raised over three quarters of the funding that they need. So at
this very special time, would the Prime Minister lend his support in
principle to this noble endeavour? Would he be prepared to accept a
Would he be prepared to accept a personal briefing on the campaign? In which case I suspect that he and
I will meet again.
12:33
Adam Thompson MP (Erewash, Labour)
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Always a pleasure. I will
congratulate him on his campaign. It is very important and many people were delighted to join that
were delighted to join that
campaign. Dame Vera Lynn, that the soundtrack has been provided for all
our lives.
12:33
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Whether it is the crevasse on the island or the array of tyre poppers in Edgbaston, every day my inbox is
filled with complaints about
potholes in the Conservative held Derby Council has failed to fix. Given the government has poured extra funding into road repairs and
tomorrow is the Derbyshire County Council elections, does the Prime Minister agree with me that it is
high time that Erewash and the wider Derbyshire got itself a Labour council who will actually repair the roads?
12:34
Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)
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He is actually right.
Conservative Derbyshire County Council is home to more potholes than anywhere else in the country. The drivers are paying the price.
The drivers are paying the price.
Our Plan for Change has committed funding for 7 million extra potholes
this year. The first time councils like Derbyshire must publish how many potholes they have repaired in order to get the cash. Party opposite left since roads are
crumbling. We are fixing them.
12:34
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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The blackout in Spain which have caused chaos, the realisation
amongst many backbenchers that thousands of jobs are being lost in Scotland and the oil industry, and
the fact that businesses are facing
energy costs and consumers are being plunged into fuel poverty. Does he
not recognise that his net zero policy is not only bad but it is
mad? And his own former leader is now accepting this. Will he not
accept the advice from someone within his own party, if you won't accept advice on this side of the House?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Many years on the opposition benches I learnt when asking
benches I learnt when asking questions that it is not just reading the headline on Wednesday morning but to look at some of the
morning but to look at some of the details. What Tony Blair says we should have more carbon capture. We
12:35
Alex Ballinger MP (Halesowen, Labour)
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should have more carbon capture. We have invested in carbon capture that is many jobs across different parts of the country. He said AI should be
used we agree and have invested huge amounts in this for jobs for the future. Also said we need domestic
targets so that businesses have certainty. We look at the detail of what Tony Blair said that the key in
line with what we are doing here. These are the jobs and security of the future. I would also say that we
**** Possible New Speaker ****
should not weapon I the difficult position that people in Spain and other countries find themselves in is a very difficult time. Final question.
12:36
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****
Final question. Thank you Mr Speaker. I welcome the government's decision this month
the government's decision this month to secure British Steel. At a time when European security is critical, the defence manufacturers in the
the defence manufacturers in the
Black Country, like Halesowen and other areas, will be using the steel to make military equipment that our defence needs. All the Prime
Minister are commit to make manufacturing investment in the Black Country national priority? ;
Up to our industrial heritage and create high-quality defence jobs at our region so desperately needs?
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I pay tribute to my honourable and gallant Friend for his service
12:37
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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to his country. He understands our national security and economic
security go hand in hand. It is vital that defence investment creates more jobs and apprenticeships and opportunities in the Black Country across the United
Kingdom. That is what we have launched a new hub to give up to 12,000 small firms are better access
to defence contracts. Of course we are raising defence spending to the highest sustained increase since the highest sustained increase since the Cold War, the party opposite failed to do in 14 years in office.
We will let the Front Benches
We We now We now come We now come to We now come to the We now come to the first We now come to the first statement,
Secretary of State for Defence John Healey.
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With permission Mr Speaker I wish to make a statement, to update the House on the action that we took
House on the action that we took last night against a Houthi military target. We did so in collective
target. We did so in collective self-defence and to uphold the freedom of that Britain has always
freedom of that Britain has always done. Mr Speaker, yesterday UK forces conducted a joint operation
forces conducted a joint operation with US allies against a Houthi
with US allies against a Houthi military facility in Yemen.
Our intelligence analysis identified a
cluster of buildings, 15 miles south of Sanaa used by the Houthis to
Manufacturer drones of the type used to attack ships in the Red Sea in
the Gulf of Aden. FGR4s And Typhoons
struck a number of buildings with precision bombs last night. This
action was limited. It was targeted. It was devised to minimise the risk
of civilian life. Everyone involved in UK operation has returned to base
safely. I want to thank on behalf of the house all members of our Armed
Forces involved in this operation, and to pay tribute to them for their
total professionalism and courage.
Mr Speaker, yesterday's operation
was carried out alongside US, our closest security ally. It was conducted in line with both the UN
Charter and the established UK policy of this government and the
last. In opposition, Labour backed
the government when it conducted five separate strikes with the US
against Houthi targets. Yesterday's attack alliance with four broad objectives. Firstly, to restore
freedom of in the Red Sea and the
Gulf of Aden. Secondly to degrade Houthi capability and prevent future attacks.
Thirdly, to reinforce
regional security alongside allies
and partners. Fourthly, to protect our economic security at home. First thing this morning, the government
reefed the shadow defence secretary and speakers of both houses, the Liberal Democrat defence
spokesperson, and the chair of the House of Commons defence committee.
I can tell the house this afternoon
that our initial assessment is that the planned targets were all successfully hit. We have seen no
evidence of civilian casualties.
Since November Since November 2023, the Houthis have waged a campaign of aggression against international
shipping in the Red Sea.
To date, they have been over 320 attacks.
These attacks are illegal. They are deadly. And we totally condemn them.
Maritime routes have been disrupted. Sailors have been killed, commercial
ships have been hit. Houthis have even targeted vessels destined for
Yemen itself, as well as military vessels of our partners. Both the
Royal and US Navy's have been forced into action in the Red Sea. Last
September I met the crew of HMS Diamond who shot down a ballistic
missile and multiple drones in self defence bring their deployment in
the Red Sea.
Make no mistake, Houthi's act as an agent of
instability across the region. They continue to receive backing from Iran, both military and financial,
and even Russia has attempted to support Houthi operations. The aggression in the Red Sea and the
Gulf of Aden is yet another example of how our adversaries are increasingly working together
against our interests. I want to be
clear, this government rejects any Houthi claims that attacking ships
in the Red Sea is somehow supporting Gaza. The Houthis were targeting
tankers and seizing ships well before the war in Gaza began.
There attacks since have targeted vessels
of all nations. So here at me when I
say that these attacks do absolutely nothing for the Palestinian people
or the push for a lasting peace. An
estimated 12% of global trade, 30% of container traffic, passes through the Red Sea every year. But the
Houthi threat has taken a drastic
fall. Levels are 50% down of what they were in November 2023. The
majority of ships now take a 5000 mark diversion around the Cape of
Good Hope.
Adding a full fortnight to a journey between Asia and
Europe, and pushing up prices of the goods that British people and others
rely on. This cannot continue. In opposition I argued that the lions
share of the responsibility for protecting the international freedom of navigation in the Red Sea is
being shouldered by the Americans, just as the US has been doing across the world now for 80 years. Since
last month, the US has been conducting a sustained campaign
targeting the Houthis in Yemen to restore freedom of.
They moved two
carriers into the region. The
strikes have destroyed multiple command and control centres, the defence systems, advanced weapons
Manufacturing site and advanced weapons storage sites. The US military say their operations have
now degraded effectiveness of the
Houthi attack. Reporting that ballistic missile launches have dropped by 69%, and one-way drone
attacks are down by 55%. Mr Speaker
the US continues to be the U.K.'s closest security ally. They are stepping up in the Red Sea.
We are
alongside them. Yesterday's joint operation builds on the broader
support that we have provided to the US in the region in recent months.
It includes air to a refuelling, the use of an important military base in Diego Garcia for regional security
operations. And RAF typhoons to
support the defence of the US carrier strike group. It has been coming under near daily attacks now
from Houthi insiders and drones. Mr Speaker this government will always
act in the interests of our national and economic security.
The UK is now
stepping up and encouraging allies to do more to protect our common security, just as we are with last
week's deployment of our own carrier strike groups starting an eight-
month deployment into the Mediterranean and Indo-Pacific. The
UK has a long and proud history of taking action to protect freedom of.
This illegal Houthi aggression does not just disrupt shipping, it does
not just destabilise the region. It hits our economy here at home. That is why the government took this
decision.
That is why the UK has taken this action. To help protect
freedom of and, reinforce regional stability, strengthen economic
security, for families across the country. Mr Speaker, we are
country. Mr Speaker, we are determined that we will keep Britain determined that we will keep Britain
I'm grateful to the Secretary of
12:46
James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)
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State for early sight of his statement and to the Minister for
statement and to the Minister for the briefing he extended to myself and other parliamentarians earlier
and other parliamentarians earlier today. As far as His Majesty's opposition are concerned, the rationale for these actions has not
changed since we undertook similar operations in government in the months leading up to the general election, with the support of the
election, with the support of the then opposition. We agree that this
then opposition.
We agree that this is an act of self defence on behalf of ourselves and our closest allies.
After all, with the main target for REF to -- RAF Typhoon Speaker Houthi drone factory, we should remember
who the drones were used to target our own Navy ships, such as that on -- the attempted attack on HMS Diamond early this year. While able
to take effective response on that
occasion, we know this is a capability that can be produced in large numbers and the threat remains
a clear and present danger.
We understand that the U.S. Navy continues to be subject to Houthi aggression, including from drones.
Thus, in our view, it is entirely legitimate to support the defence of
our close ally the US and to prevent future potential attacks on our own fleet and international shipping by attacking the Houthi drone threat at
source. But the Houthi's actions are not just a threat to ourselves and
our allies, as the Secretary of State said, they are illegal. And completely counter to international humanitarian priorities. Given that
their attacks have imperilled aid deliveries to the Yemeni people, whilst undermining a crucial
shipping route or grain en route to some of the poorest people in the world.
The Government therefore has
our full support for this latest operation and we are grateful on
this side to the brave and highly skilled personnel of the Royal Air Force who conducted the mission, including both the Typhoon cruise
and those on the air to air... Mission. In particular, we welcome
their safe return and completion of what appears to be a successful
operation in terms of grading Houthi drone capability. Of course, the US had been undertaking their own self
defence against Houthi attacks and
we very much welcome the close working with US allies, as was the case when we were in government and
under the previous administration of the US.
This underlines the continuity of our most important strategic military partnership and
it is right we work as closely as possible with the US to address threats to freedom of navigation.
That said, that freedom of navigation is vital to the ships of many nations. Not just the UK and
the US. The whole world benefits from action taken to keep International Shipping Week low in,
supporting the wider economy. Can the Secretary of State update us on what talks he has had with other allies, including NATO members, on
providing direct military support against the Houthi threat in future?
After all, this is not only a threat to many other nations, it involves other hostile states, notably Iran,
with their own row my ongoing support not just the Houthis but Hezbollah, Hamas and other armed groups in Iran and elsewhere.
How
with the UK. Into the approach being taken by the new US administration
towards Iran? The Secretary of State also refer to Russian involvement. Can he confirm reports that the
Houthis have received targeted assistance with potential ballistic missiles attacks from Russia? Does this not show why supporting Ukraine
against Russia is about a much wider strategic picture that directly
threatens the United Kingdom? He
also referred to the use of our military base, Diego Garcia, for regional security operations. Soon
it will not be asked.
And doesn't
this action mean by -- soon it will not be ours and doesn't this indicate) it is so dangerous? Tend
to SDR, it was disconcerting that the Ministry of Defence said
yesterday, "It is a Strategic Defence Review that will need to be
12:50
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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translated into a set of specific investment decisions on individual capabilities and projects that will
capabilities and projects that will be work for later in the summer and into the autumn." Knows there are urgent procurement decisions needed that relate directly to the Houthi
that relate directly to the Houthi threat in the Red Sea, not least up-rates to the system which we
up-rates to the system which we believe must be accelerated. He also knows that procurement is largely on hold awaiting the publication of the
hold awaiting the publication of the SDR.
He promised to publish the SDR in the spring. Can he confirm it
in the spring. Can he confirm it will definitely be published in May, the last month of spring, and most importantly, that in May we will see the full detail on all major
individual procurement choices, so that the MoD can get on with them as
**** Possible New Speaker ****
a matter of the utmost urgent? Can I welcome the honourable
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Can I welcome the honourable gentlemen stone and the content of
his response to the statement. -- Tone. Labour the previous government
Tone. Labour the previous government strike against the Houthis. -- Labour backed. Pointed out that the
Labour backed. Pointed out that the rational then was the same as now
rational then was the same as now and that was a useful contribution to the discussion. He is right to say the clear and present threat the Houthis poster all nations,
including two hours and our closest allies, is also the same.
-- Posed
to all nations including two hours. I did so as he does to me today
because this is bigger than politics, this is about freedom of navigation, regional stability and
it is also about that most important security relationship the UK has
with the US. He asked me about some specific capabilities. I have to say
to him, we are now able to plan to provide the best possible kit for
our Armed Forces because of the historic it meant to raising the level of defence spending to 2.5 %
that the Prime Minister made to this House in February.
Three years
earlier than his own unfunded plans. And moving into three % in the next
Parliament. He asks about the
capabilities on some of our naval ships. When I met the crew of HMS Diamond in the autumn, they
demonstrated to me and talk to me in
detail about just how exceptional their response to that multiple attack was. And just how effective
the weaponry on HMS Diamond was at that time. Therefore we are
upgrading the ships with a number of capabilities, including DragonFire,
something that he first talked about.
And I say to him we are now
doing not just one ship as he talked about for, we are doing it sooner
12:54
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)
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threats and the freedom of navigation in the Red Sea were discussed by foreign Ministers at
discussed by foreign Ministers at the G7 and at NATO... NATO foreign Ministers within the last month. The
Ministers within the last month. The very carrier strike group that he welcomed the deployment of last week
welcomed the deployment of last week is multinational by design. It is
designed to exercise together but together to reassert some of those basic principles. That the attacks
basic principles.
That the attacks last month -- last night were designed to support, the freedom of
navigation of our seas.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his statement and the Minister for the Armed Forces for his in person briefing beforehand. I
his in person briefing beforehand. I am also glad that our service personnel involved in yesterday's
personnel involved in yesterday's strike have returned home safely and that precision sovereign strike has
that precision sovereign strike has destroyed the drone factory with no civilian casualties. I agree with the Secretary of State that Houthi
the Secretary of State that Houthi attacks since 2023 have tragically killed innocent merchant mariners,
12:54
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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killed innocent merchant mariners, led to a shocking 55 % drop in shipping through the Red Sea,
costing billions, fuelled regional
instability and has exasperated the cost-of-living crisis here in the UK and across the globe. But how confident is my right honourable
friend, aced on current intelligence, that after yesterday's strike, that there will be freedom
of navigation and that there will be no further loss of life because of
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the Houthis? -- Based on current intelligence. I'm grateful for my honourable
friend support for the action we took overnight. It is part of a sustained campaign which is a US
sustained campaign which is a US campaign that we are working alongside. There is no overnight
alongside. There is no overnight solution to this. But the evidence that is reported from the US military of this new sustained
military of this new sustained intensive campaign seems to be
intensive campaign seems to be having an effect on the pace, the rate and the threat that the Houthis
post.
And our action last night was designed to reinforce that campaign
to support the push for regional stability and also to protect the domestic economy and the impact of
the disruption in international shipping and the effect that has on prices for ordinary people.
12:56
Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)
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Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you to the Secretary of State for advance sight of his
State for advance sight of his statement and for the briefing from the Minister for the Armed Forces earlier today. The Houthis the
earlier today. The Houthis the stabilising military campaign in the Red Sea has had a chilling effect on trade through that vital waterway,
trade through that vital waterway, threatening lives was also posting costs on British businesses and consumers. The Houthis cannot be allowed to act with impunity and
allowed to act with impunity and hold the global economy to ransom by restricting freedom of navigation.
It is important their military capabilities are regraded to ensure
capabilities are regraded to ensure trade can flow freely and that is why we on these benches support the
case for limited strikes and we thank the service personnel involved for their bravery and I am pleased they have returned safely. It is
12:57
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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vital we fully understand
operational goals behind the mission as well as the intelligence by the coordination of the strikes. Can the Minister outlined by the government has chosen on this occasion to join
has chosen on this occasion to join the US forces on a joint strike rather than previous similar missions? The recent leaks from
missions? The recent leaks from President Trump cabinet pertaining to military action against the Houthis raises concern questions about his skill US intelligence is
about his skill US intelligence is and the possible impact on British service personnel.
In light of those leaks, the Minister reassure us it's
leaks, the Minister reassure us it's intelligent showing the US is
completely secure and whether the Government is undertaking an assessment of the security about intelligence sharing networks with
the US? I was reassured the Minister that the government does not have evidence of any loss of civilian life. Can the Minister update the
House and what steps to be taken ahead of mission to minimise civilian casualties?
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I neglected to respond to the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I neglected to respond to the honourable gentlemen on the SCR. I would say to him, it is published on
would say to him, it is published on the spring and he will have more of his questions answered. Mike SDR. To
the honourable lady, I welcome her recognition of the importance of degrading military capabilities of the Houthis. I welcome the support
the Houthis. I welcome the support for the action we took last night. I say to her with confidence and reassurance that our own UK
reassurance that our own UK intelligence, our own UK communication systems remain secure.
And in response to her question
And in response to her question
about right now,... First of all, it is action and the decision we took that is in line with long
established policy. UK policy and
12:59
Rt Hon Emily Thornberry MP (Islington South and Finsbury, Labour)
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the UN Charter. Secondly, it is a reflection of the fact that the US
reflection of the fact that the US is stepping up and we as a close ally are alongside them in this
ally are alongside them in this action. And third, it is to protect our economy because the majority of
our economy because the majority of the shipping in this busiest of international sea routes has this
international sea routes has this big beetle that pushes up prices, so
big beetle that pushes up prices, so it has a direct impact not just on our security interests but on our economic interests as well and that
is why we are acting.
12:59
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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Can I refer the House to my registered interest. The Houthi say they are shelling international shipping in order to help Palestinians. However, as my right
12:59
Rt Hon Emily Thornberry MP (Islington South and Finsbury, Labour)
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honourable friend agree that not just by undermining international
12:59
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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trade but by causing a devastating decline in the use of the Suez Canal and crashing the numbers of cruise
and crashing the numbers of cruise ships visiting Aqaba, they are actually attacking Egypt and Jordan,
actually attacking Egypt and Jordan, two countries who could not be working harder for a future for the Palestinians, who could not be
giving more support. Whether it is financial, whether political or
diplomatic and refugee for so many. If they really care about the Palestinians, does my right honourable friend agree they simply
should stop this?
13:00
Rt Hon Sir Oliver Dowden MP (Hertsmere, Conservative)
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I totally agree with my
honourable friend. Jordan and Egypt
are doing a lot of the heavy lifting, trying to support the Palestinians. It is notable there is
no evidence the Houthis themselves have provided any aid to the Palestinians in Gaza. And the action
they are taking, the disruption and the intensification of the
insecurity in the region is doing absolutely nothing to help
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Palestinians cause. I welcome this action and joined
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I welcome this action and joined the Defence Secretary in paying tribute to our exemplary Armed
13:00
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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tribute to our exemplary Armed Forces. It is essential that we tackle the tentacles of Iran through
all its proxies, whether it is the Houthis, Hamas or Hezbollah, that do so much damage to Israel, to the wider Middle East and not least to
the people of Palestine. But I think
one of the fundamental questions here, as he will know from the discussions we had when I was Deputy
Prime Minister, is what is the long-term strategy to eliminate this
threat of the Houthis to Red Sea shipping? I wonder whether from the benefit of the House, the Defence
Secretary give some further indication of the new government thinking on that long-term strategy
thinking on that long-term strategy
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I pay tribute to the way that when he was debited by Mr he went out of his way, as we are doing now,
out of his way, as we are doing now, to make sure that we were well briefed on such strikes and I
appreciate that. He is right that military action against the Houthis can only take so far. Therefore the
can only take so far. Therefore the wider strategy must be the UK doing what we can to work with allies
what we can to work with allies especially in the region.
First of all to constrain the Houthis, as our action overnight was designed to do.
action overnight was designed to do. Second, to bolster the strength and
authority and capability of the government. Which is what the
foreign office minister announced. And the third thing is to pursue
with allies the importance of a negotiated settlement that gives Yemen a peaceful way forward. In the
13:02
Derek Twigg MP (Widnes and Halewood, Labour)
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meantime, not to lose sight of the response ability we have as a nation
response ability we have as a nation to support the Yemen people who are suffering so greatly. I know he will
welcome the fact that my right honourable friend announced in
honourable friend announced in January an extra £5 million of aid for Yemen. It brought the total in
for Yemen. It brought the total in the last 12 months to £144 million. The UK remains the third largest donor to the Yemen humanitarian
13:02
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****
help. Can I thank the Secretary of
State for his statement, and for his words about the courage and professionalism of our armed service
personnel. Isn't it the case that having a strong and careful military
is essential to ensuring economic security and freedom of trade? Isn't
that why the financial institutions and pension funds should be
increasing their investment in defence industries and not listening to those voices who are opposed to that?
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Quite right Mr Speaker. My honourable friend will be interested
honourable friend will be interested to know the work that I and the Chancellor together have commissioned on the barriers in the
commissioned on the barriers in the UK that at the moment are holding back private sources of investment in our defence and technology
13:03
Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)
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in our defence and technology
industry. Part of the, an important part of the Defence Industrial
Strategy that we are able to publish this before too long will be about how we use the big commitment that
this government and this country is now making to invest in defence and
make our Armed Forces fit for the future. How we can use that to leverage much more private sector
**** Possible New Speaker ****
sources alongside it so we can do more more quickly. Clearly unusual for a terrorist
13:04
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****
Clearly unusual for a terrorist group engaged in a civil war to
group engaged in a civil war to invite retaliation of this sort by attacking international shipping so
comprehensively. Clearly they are acting as an agent in the rans
strategy. Therefore, can he advise us, what do the government no about
the ability of Iran to keep fuelling these attacks on the Red Sea? Now
that the domestic ability to manufacture drones in Yemen has been
degraded, how easy will it be for Iran to supply them directly to the Houthis?
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The short answer is that we must
13:05
Michelle Scrogham MP (Barrow and Furness, Labour)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****
The short answer is that we must do what we can with allies to make it as hard as possible for Iran to maintain both its financial support
maintain both its financial support for the Houthis and its logistical
munitions and support for them. We are working on that with allies. As
I have said to the house earlier on, straight military action that we
straight military action that we were conducting last night is a part of the solution for the long term.
It is not the whole solution.
13:05
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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I would like to thank my right
honourable friend, and obviously we have had a long-standing
relationship with the US and they are our closest security ally. Would he agree with me that our continued
work on AUKUS would strengthen that all the nations involved?
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It will indeed Mr Speaker. The AUKUS program is a good example of
13:06
Dave Doogan MP (Angus and Perthshire Glens, Scottish National Party)
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AUKUS program is a good example of how big defence commitments are not
just a long-term deterrent commitment for own security and that
of allies, but they haven't important economic boost in how defence can be a driver of economic
growth. My honourable friend has the privilege of representing the town
of Barrow and the Royal Shipyard there, and will know better than
anyone just how important that combination is. It is hardwired into
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the approach this government takes. Mr Speaker, the brutal oppression
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Mr Speaker, the brutal oppression of the Palestinians in Gaza will not
be helped one iota by the bombing of merchants and the drone strikes
13:06
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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merchants and the drone strikes against the merchant marine. So it
seems to be an operation which has the appearance of something which may insure into a more strategic
affair. I wonder if the Secretary of State agrees that, notwithstanding
the general consensus in the chamber today for the action that was taken, whether or not the broader debate in
Parliament would be desirable? Not to discuss operational imperatives or plans or anything of that nature,
but to further reinforce the will of the House.
Whilst the celebration the actions of the aircrew will even
acknowledge the aircrew would not be
able to do their job if it was not for the other trades to keep the mobilised?
13:07
Mr Calvin Bailey MP (Leyton and Wanstead, Labour)
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Well said Mr Speaker. He is absolutely right, stand behind our
Armed Forces and the ultimate
professionalism they display is a large number of civilian and
military personnel that make the operation is successful. He would be
wrong to say this is a sustained campaign. This is the first UK
strike on Houthi positions since May last. Parliament will be kept
informed in the event of any future military interventions such as this.
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Thank you Mr Speaker. Freedom of in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden
13:08
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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is essential to the global economics system and anything that impinges on this impact the global economy
increases cost to the environment, and impacts the poorest people in
the world. It is for this reason that I'm proud of my associations as the former commander of the expeditionary air Wing whose
Typhoons and voyages were launched
last night and carried out the strike. Does the Defence Secretary agree with me that this action forms
part of the joined up international strategy to end these attacks and defend freedom of and?
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I do indeed. It is part of a
13:09
Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)
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I do indeed. It is part of a longer term program to try and degrade the ability of the Houthis
degrade the ability of the Houthis to hit international shipping. To defend and protect freedom of and,
and to recognise that conflicts in
the Middle East have a big impact on business and on prosperity in this
country. And the British Chambers of commerce recently published a survey
which said 50% of businesses in Britain report that they have now
been impacted by conflicts in the
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Middle East region. I mention my interests in the register and congratulate all involved in a successful joint
13:09
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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involved in a successful joint operation. Matters like this are
likely to attract retaliation from Iran and its proxies. What is being
done to prepare and support our allies in the region against
possible attacks, as the carrier
strike group 25 prepared to target
in transit in the region. Would he assure the House that all is being done to protect our men and women?
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Mr Speaker, he has served thing in two terms as a Defence Minister.
in two terms as a Defence Minister. He will know the highest priority that defence ministers and defence
that defence ministers and defence secretary to clean myself give two armed force protection. That was a matter for me and the Armed Forces
matter for me and the Armed Forces Minister in detail to go over with our military planners and our
13:10
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our military planners and our military chiefs before the carrier group set sail. I was briefed again
on it and I visited with the Prime Minister last week. In general
terms, this operation last night was designed to prevent further
escalation. It was designed to prevent further Houthi attacks, by
taking out the major weapons manufacturing site.
13:11
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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I thank my right honourable
friend for his statement and would also want to be a tribute to the courage and professionalism of all of our service personnel who were involved in this successful
operation. Does my right honourable
friend agree with me that the whole House should stand together against the Houthi attacks which challenge
the freedom of and, and if left unaddressed, could lead to a
devastating rise in the cost of essential food items, not just for my constituents, but here across the UK and in other countries?
13:11
Monica Harding MP (Esher and Walton, Liberal Democrat)
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My honourable friend puts the
argument very well. This is a matter of freedom of. It is a matter of
international north. It is a matter of economic self interest for us in
Britain, because the price paid by
Britain, because the price paid by the disruption to world shipping in this essential trade route to the Red Sea, that prices paid by ordinary people in the food they
ordinary people in the food they buy, the goods they depend on.
That is why we have taken the action we did last night.
13:12
Clive Efford MP (Eltham and Chislehurst, Labour)
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Can also pay tribute to the professionalism of our Armed Forces,
and I'm thank for their safe return. Could I ask, is he confident about
the appropriate security for a military personnel? Given previous
leaks from the Trump Administration on signalling detailed attacks before they happen, what reassurances has he had from the
United States?
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I am confident. We handle secure communications in secure ways, and
communications in secure ways, and we do that consistently here in the UK.
13:13
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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I joined my right honourable friend in paying tribute to the armed forces personnel who took part
armed forces personnel who took part in last night's action. The fact that it is us that were supporting the USA in this action really does
emphasise the close relationship we have with the USA. In this morning's
papers, it has been suggested that
our desire to do a trade deal has been pushed back to a second tranche of countries or even 1/3. Does honourable Friend share my
disappointment at that decision? And would ask that perhaps the Trump Administration returns to that issue
considers the close relationship we have both in defence and intelligence? intelligence?
13:13
Rt Hon David Mundell MP (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
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Mr Speaker, I gently urge my honourable friend not to necessarily
believe everything that he reads in the newspapers. He is very experienced and has a very good
insight into the political world. Just to reassure him pulling out all
the stops behind-the-scenes to accelerate the trade deal with the
US. Just as we are to reinforce that special depth the relationship on
the security and defence matters.
13:14
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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Thank you Mr Speaker. I very much
welcome the statement and the action which I fully support. I'm very
pleased to hear of the level of engagement by the US. The Secretary of State will recall that in the previous parliament the humanitarian
situation in Yemen was the subject of frequent debate and discussion.
It does appear to have just fallen
off the agenda, partly because of atrocious conflicts elsewhere. I was pleased to hear what he had to say
in relation to the FCDO approach.
William Shaw, as the FCDO has more
constrained resources, that Yemen and the humanitarian situation there
does remain a priority?
13:15
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I am confident my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has that in mind. He will
be conscious, as a vital gentleman is, that the UK does not only act as
the third largest donor in the Yemen humanitarian program but also is the pen holder for Yemen at the United
Nations.
13:15
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank my
right honourable friend for his statement and associate myself with his words about our brave military personnel. Does the Defence
Secretary agree with me that we must
reiterate how Houthi attacks are illegal, they are against the UN Charter, and they target the principle of freedom of that all
nations benefit from? Including allies in the region. And that our
action shows working with allies internationally can improve regional
stability and security and indeed as
stability and security and indeed as
13:16
Richard Tice MP (Boston and Skegness, Reform UK)
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I do agree with my honourable friend. It is a matter about
reinforcing regional security, it is a matter about defending and protecting the freedom of
protecting the freedom of navigation, it is also a matter of protecting our own economic interest protecting our own economic interest back home. I make no apology for standing up for British interests and those of our allies.
13:16
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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We at reform actually endorse the
government action against the Houthis and thank our brave and brilliant military personnel. The
Secretary of State referred to the continuing support of the Houthis by Iran. The update the House on further sanctions against Iran and
surely now is the time to prescribe
surely now is the time to prescribe
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the Islamic -- proscribe the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps as a terrorist organisation? The honourable gentlemen has been
13:17
Tahir Ali MP (Birmingham Hall Green and Moseley, Labour)
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The honourable gentlemen has been around long enough to know that I
won't comment on the process for proscription of the Houthis. Suffice to say the government has sanctioned
a number of the major leaders of the Houthis. And I hope he will take and
I welcome his welcome the action we took last night, and I hope you will take that action as a sign of
determination to do what we can alongside our US allies. To degrade
their ability to continue to threaten freedom of navigation for International Shipping Week.
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The Houthis are acting freely...
13:17
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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The Houthis are acting freely...
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The Houthis are acting freely... There is a crisis in Yemen, many are
There is a crisis in Yemen, many are children desperate need of food, water and medical supplies. To defeat the Houthis permanently, will
the Secretary of State give a commitment that his government will do all that is possible to deliver a
roadmap for peace, along with allies, to make sure this happens
now, otherwise it will be the last opportunity to?
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Mr Speaker, I said to my honourable friend in the House
honourable friend in the House earlier on, the responsibility I have as Defence Secretary is for the
military component of a wider approach that must be pursued if we
are going to be able to help lay an important role in securing peace and
important role in securing peace and a settlement, settling the civil war
a settlement, settling the civil war in Yemen. And lifting relief for those hundreds of thousands of Yemenis who are suffering so severely.
Constraining the Houthis
direct as part of that. Reinforcing and bolstering the Yemeni government
is also part of that, but working
with allies, particularly regional allies in trying to force the pace of a negotiated settlement and peace in Yemen is absolutely crucial.
in Yemen is absolutely crucial.
I welcome the Secretary of State statement and add my thanks and appreciation to the Royal Air Force and all those involved in this successful operation. In his
statement, the Defence Secretary said even Russia has attempted to support Houthi operations.
But isn't
it a little bit deeper than that, as the Wall Street Journal has reported that targeting data provided by
Russia has been utilised by the Houthis for their attacks against Western shipping, while Iran has
arbitrated secret talks between the terror group and the Kremlin. So what steps is the Secretary of State
taking to disrupt Russia's deepening ties to Iran and its proxies across
ties to Iran and its proxies across the Middle East? the Middle East?
13:19
Alex Ballinger MP (Halesowen, Labour)
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I'm really not going to disclose in public or even to this House the
steps we are taking to deal with some of that Russian activity that
goes well beyond not just Yemen but obviously the wider Middle East.
Suffice to say he has made a contribution to the discussion this
contribution to the discussion this afternoon or the statement by reporting the Wall Street Journal's report to the House. report to the House.
13:20
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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I add my words of support the
actions the UK took last night. The Houthi group is a terrorist
organisation that has been deeply destabilising and it is right we are playing a role in protecting freedom
of navigation. At the same time, the community of Yemenis are really concerned about the desperate humanitarian situation in Yemen.
Could the Minister add a few more words and what we are doing to support Yemenis that are so
desperate right now and what we are doing to help...?
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I mentioned the uplift in year that the Foreign Secretary gave to
that the Foreign Secretary gave to our contribution to the Yemeni humanitarian assistance plan. It
makes us the third largest donor.
Our focus for the aid has been
13:21
Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)
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Our focus for the aid has been especially on food, which is of critical shortage and a necessity to many hundreds of thousands of
Yemenis. And we calculate that we will have helped almost 900,000 Yemenis without food support this
year. -- With our food support. And our support on healthcare, supporting over 700 healthcare
supporting over 700 healthcare
cities across the country with medical and vaccines and other help people desperately need.
13:21
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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May I share in my recognition of
the RAF's role in last night's operation. Given the existing global commitment about typing squadrons, should the coalition of the willing
provides help to any post-war of
Ukraine, an air policing role to Ukraine in addition to the Baltic and the high North? How we continue to facilitate direct action such as
theirs strikes against the Iranian backed Houthis in Yemen with no plan to purchase a second tranche of...?
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On the matter of Ukraine and
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On the matter of Ukraine and potentially the role of aiding in the coalition of the willing and security guarantees, if the negotiated peace settlement can be
13:22
Alison Hume MP (Scarborough and Whitby, Labour)
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negotiated peace settlement can be put in place, which we all hope from President Trump secures, we are
President Trump secures, we are
planning, the moment the sort of consequences of the many commitments that we make will be fully explained
to the House if a decision gets taken. But to say to him this is
taken. But to say to him this is contingent on a ceasefire, it is contingent on a peace agreement. And
that is contingent principally on Putin, to do what he says he wants, Putin, to do what he says he wants, which is to see an end to the fighting.
13:23
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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I thank the Defence Secretary for
his statement and pay tribute to all
those involved in this successful strike. Does he agree with me that this government will always put personnel at the heart of our
defence plans?
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For too long I believe the previous government overlooked that.
They certainly failed to meet their recruitment tests. And I'm proud to have been a Defence Secretary in a
have been a Defence Secretary in a Labour government. Able to give the Armed Forces personnel the largest
Armed Forces personnel the largest pay increase last year for 20 years. And to be the first Defence Secretary that can stand at this
Secretary that can stand at this Dispatch Box and say nobody in uniform will be paid less now than the national living wage.
And I'm
13:23
Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)
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the national living wage. And I'm also proud to have managed to do a
deal to buy back and bring into public control 36,000 family
military homes. The consequence of which was quite the worst
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privatisation ever, in 1996, under that previous Tory government. In reply to an earlier question,
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In reply to an earlier question, the Secretary of State talked about
13:24
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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the Secretary of State talked about the devastation in Yemen, with 11 million people in desperate need of
help and support and the Civil War conditions that pertain there. This armed intervention that was made
yesterday, and I think we all need to know where it leads to, what the
endgame is, are we involved in an internal war in Yemen? And what is the long-term implications of our involvement in this? Because
ultimately there has to be some kind of peace process in Yemen, just as
much as there has to be in Gaza and elsewhere within the region.
Does this actually bring peace nearer or
does this actually exacerbate the danger of a widening conflict?
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The honourable gentlemen is right
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The honourable gentlemen is right to remind the House of the extreme hardship that many Yemenis, in what
hardship that many Yemenis, in what is a wall tone country -- war-torn
is a wall tone country -- war-torn country, has been for years. The strikes last night were designed to reduce and prevent the risk of
reduce and prevent the risk of further Houthi attacks and were done
because we were able to take out an important weapons manufacturing facility that the Houthis had.
Manufacturing very weapons that have been used to target international
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shipping and our own. I welcome the Secretary of
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I welcome the Secretary of State's statement today and add my own thanks to our service personnel
own thanks to our service personnel for their action. I also would like to talk about the Houthis and what
to talk about the Houthis and what they have been doing, alongside the other terrorist proxies in Belize,
the Hamas and Hezbollah, who are controlled by Iran. Therefore I would ask my right honourable friend
would ask my right honourable friend what is this country's policy in disrupting and containing this
network and attacking the heart of, namely Iran itself?
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My honourable friend is right, Iran is a destabilising influence
13:26
James Wild MP (North West Norfolk, Conservative)
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Iran is a destabilising influence across the region. Not just in its
own terms, but particularly in the way it has developed, sponsored,
supplied proxy groups. And the Houthis are clearly supplied by,
supported by Iran and part of the long-term ability to see a secure
Middle East, a conflict free Middle
East, has got to be a reconciliation that Iran has, that it stops using
these proxies, in order to threaten both neighbours in the region and
the interests of countries like ours.
ours.
13:27
Steve Yemm MP (Mansfield, Labour)
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US action in recent weeks has considerably degraded illicit
missile and drone attacks, I welcome these RAF strikes. However, this
action will only work if it is sustained. Will the Defence Secretary commit to ongoing UK and RAF direct support to US operation
rough Rider, to striking the terrace, rather than the at hoc approach adopted so far, so we can properly restore freedom of navigation?
13:27
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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Rough Rider is a US military
campaign. We took action last night alongside the US. And any future
military interventions like last night will be reported to the House.
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Thanks to the Secretary of State for his statement to the House
for his statement to the House today. I would also like to pay tribute to all of our Armed Forces personnel bought their action overnight. Does the Secretary of
overnight. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that the USA has
13:28
John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)
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State agree with me that the USA has always been and will remain our most strongest and steadfast security
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ally? -- For their action. I do indeed is the Speaker. The
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I do indeed is the Speaker. The US UK defence relationship has a special depth that has lasted decades. We do things together as to
decades. We do things together as to nations that no other nations do. We trained together, we exercise
13:28
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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trained together, we exercise together and at times, we have to
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fight together. I am very relieved to hear that the Strategic Defence Review is
the Strategic Defence Review is coming in spring, with a great
coming in spring, with a great yellow ball in the sky, assume that will be fairly soon. In all military operations time is the enemy. I'm concerned about reports that
concerned about reports that Strategic Defence Review may only be abroad rush document, an interim document. And the decisions, the
document. And the decisions, the important decisions on specific capabilities may not be taken until the autumn.
Are we marching into war
the autumn. Are we marching into war and if so should we not be doing it
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at... And not so much? The honourable gentlemen... I
13:29
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The honourable gentlemen... I just say to him, look, the Strategic Defence Review is a Strategic Defence Review, it will be published
Defence Review, it will be published in the spring. It has been an unprecedented process, externally
led. But a process that has allowed us to take stock of the threats that we face, the capabilities that we need stop and to do so within the
need stop and to do so within the unprecedented increase in defence funding that this government has funding that this government has committed to over the next 10 years.
13:29
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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In his statement, the Secretary
of State refers to Russian attempts to support Houthi operations,
without comprising any of the information is not able to share, how would he rate the effectiveness
of those Russian interventions, as well as the UK response? And does he agree with me shows we must continue to support Ukraine in every way we
can to undermine the dictator Vladimir Putin?
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It does indeed. My honourable friend has instead passed in the Back Benchers as a strong voice
Back Benchers as a strong voice Ukraine. Has been steadfast from the
13:30
Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)
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Ukraine. Has been steadfast from the Back Benchers. On the question of the effectiveness of Russian action
and interventions in Yemen, I am more concerned to make sure that any
military action that this Government sanctions is effective and that the outstanding military personnel that
are involved will return safely and I'm happy to report to the House
13:31
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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Jeremy on 17th March I asked the Secretary of State by the UK took a kinetic role against the Houthis under the last government but had
under the last government but had not taken an active role in those carried out by this government. And we've since had those leaks,
we've since had those leaks, messages from signal and the US secretary of defence Hegseth lamented the lack of European
lamented the lack of European involvement in relation to those
involvement in relation to those 15th March strikes.
How much is the involvement of British jets in the strikes, is a response to the allegation by Pete Hesketh of
European freeloading?
13:31
Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
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The strikes that we conducted last night are a result of the fact
that America is our closest ally. Have been coming and a near daily attacks from the Houthis. It's a
result of the fact that shipping has more than halved through their Red
Sea route, and that 50% of UK businesses now say they have been impacted by conflict in the Middle
East. I said the honourable gentleman I make no apology for
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defending Britain's interest and the interests of our allies. I thank him for his answers and
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I thank him for his answers and giving a comprehensive information. And I wish to congratulate our Armed
13:32
Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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And I wish to congratulate our Armed Forces and allies on a successful strike against the facility. Long may those targeted and successful
operations continue. What the Secretary of State confirm what further steps will be taken with our
NATO allies? We said we can't do this on our own and we need them. To secure the Red Sea and the golf of
Aidan, and thereby lower the shipping costs and the consumer costs for all of those who are
paying the price for the evil acts of the Houthis.
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The honourable gentleman is right
13:32
Ministerial statement: UK energy grid resilience
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The honourable gentleman is right to say this is bigger and more important than just UK action or even just US action. And I did
even just US action. And I did report to the House earlier on that the broader discussion, the
challenges that he sets out were discussed by NATO Foreign Minister is. They've been discussed by Foreign Minister is at the G7 within the last month.
13:33
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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That competes that statement. We
We come to the next statement,
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minister of state. Permission I would like to make a
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Permission I would like to make a statement on the resilience of the
U.K.'s energy grid in the context of the widespread power outages experienced across the Iberian peninsular over the past two days. First, my thanks with all those
First, my thanks with all those
First, my thanks with all those affected by the widespread disruption on Monday. I'm glad to hear power has not been fully restored across the region. I'd like
restored across the region. I'd like to reassure the House that Great Britain has a highly resilient energy network in the incident in
Iberia has not impacted Great Britain.
The safety of state has been in regular contact with the National Energy System Operator over
the past two days, and they have provided reassurance that there is no increasing risk energy supplies
or system stability from this incident. My department was informed
on Monday that a power outage occurred across the Iberian Peninsula affecting mainland Spain,
Portugal and Dora and parts of mainland France first while Powell
mainland France first while Powell
was restored to all affected areas yesterday, the cause of the outage is yet to be confirmed and it's
likely to take some time for the Spanish network operator to carry
out a thorough network investigation to determine the exact cause of the failure.
Various independent
commissions have been commissioned
by Spain, France and Portugal. They Great Britain is not directly connected to their grid, we are in"
With European counterparts and offering support when needed. The government is closely monitoring the
situation and are in contact with the Spanish and Portuguese authorities to ensure the safety and well-being of any British nationals
in the affected regions. I would like to turn to our own grits resilience and our preparedness in
the context of recent events on the Iberian peninsular.
An event similar
and impact of this incident in Great Britain would be the equivalent of a national power outage, which is the
total loss of power across the whole of GB. This risk is listed on the
National risk register as a high
impact below likelihood event. In its 75 year history, the Great Britain transmission system has never experienced a complete
shutdown or anything of the scale of what has been in Spain over the past few days. The GP electricity system
is highly resilient.
The National Energy System Operator continuously monitors the condition of the
electricity system to ensure there is sufficient inertia and reserves in the system to manage large
losses, therefore avoiding large-
scale power outages. NISO have also introduced innovative new approaches to manage system stability as well as advanced safety systems to help
prevent such incidents from happening in GB. The system is built, designed and operated in a
way that can cope with the loss of key circuits or systems without
causing custom impacts.
There are multiple redundant alternative routes for power to flow, should a fault occur, the minimising the risk
of a single fault cascading across
the entire system to cause a total or partial electricity system shutdown. However, as a responsible
government we prepare for all eventualities, no matter how unlikely. I'd like to reassure the House that the government works
closely within industry to continually maintain and improve the resilience of energy infrastructure
networking assets to reduce vulnerabilities, including having robust emergency plans, summarised
in the national emergency plan for downstream gas and electricity and
regular exercising emergency plans with the energy system and Ofgem, including an exercise carried out by
the previous government which we've taken forward the recommendations
on.
This work is ongoing across government to make sure we are as resilient as possible as a nation to all eventualities. We also empower the independent National Energy
13:38
Andrew Bowie MP (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, Conservative)
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System Operator to carry out resilience functions across the electricity and gas systems and will continue to work with industry and regulators to improve and maintain
regulators to improve and maintain the resilience of old, new and future energy infrastructure. Switching fossil fuel generation for
Switching fossil fuel generation for home-grown clean energy from renewables, nuclear and other clean technologies is the route to long-
technologies is the route to long- term energy security, and I will be speaking more broadly about the U.K.'s energy resilience at
U.K.'s energy resilience at Westminster Hall debates on Tuesday.
To conclude, Great Britain has a resilient energy network and we will
resilient energy network and we will ensure that it continues to be the case, and I commend this statement
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of the House. I would of course like to thank the honourable gentleman for advanced sight of his statement and
advanced sight of his statement and echo his comments, of course thoughts on the side of the House with all those affected the blackouts in Spain and Portugal and
blackouts in Spain and Portugal and more widely. He rightly addresses concerns on security of our own
great and the context of the shutdown. Indeed am glad he confirmed he is carrying on and
permitting the recommendations from exercise which I was involved to see what action would be required as
what action would be required as such an event took place in GB.
The primary responsibility of the Minister's Department is to keep the
lights on in this country. The images from Spain and Portugal are a
simple reminder of what happens when the grid fails, extended blackouts are devastating and it's a relief that power was restored 19% of customers by 6 o'clock yesterday
morning. The grid can in Iberia has demonstrated the fragility of the complex interconnected systems which support modern life, and the very
real impacts on human life. It's the Minister's responsibility to make sure this does not happen in Great Britain because the price for our economy and communities across this
country would be catastrophic.
We can get away from the fact that this
government's plans to rush ahead to build a grid that is entirely dependent on the wind and sun in
just five years time makes our electricity grid significantly less reliable. The stability of our
illiteracy grid depends on what is called inertia, the ability for the system to resist destabilising
fluctuations in frequency. That's the reason our grid has been so secure and resilient over the
decades the Minister references. This inertia is provided by
turbines, nuclear, hydro or crucially, gas, power stations.
But they aren't provided by solar farms
or wind farms. If the grid doesn't have enough inertia to resist sudden
changes in frequency, then it can become destabilised and cascading grid failure occur. That means blackouts. As the Spanish national
system operator said in the latest annual report, the closure of
conventional generation plants such as coal, gas and nuclear produced the firm power and balancing capacities of the grid as well as
the strength and inertia. This is also happened here in Great Britain.
Data from NISO shows that the inertia number grid has been steadily decreasing over time as gas
and coal have come of the system to be replaced with wind and solar.
This comes with a hefty pricetag, and this is the problem with so much of the party opposites approach to
energy security because from their imposed targets they are selling the British people with mountains of
extra costs as they rush ahead to what is a power system depending on the weather rather than firm reliable baseload.
Tens of billions
of pounds subsidising this and providing backup from reliable gas
plants, they said their 2030 target and now they are trying to work out how they can achieve it, and they refuse to be honest with the British
people. They refuse to do an open and honest assessment of the cost and risks that come with this
approach. Want even Tony Blair has said that the present policy solutions are inadequate and doomed
to fail. On the side of the House we
believe in a system that delivers affordable and clean and you for the UK.
A cyber attack has been ruled
out by the Spanish government as a cause of their great collapse but we know the threat of indifference by hostile states as Constance MIT
update has more action he is taking to protect the grid from hostel activity and when he finally tellers
which single minister is responsible for the safety and security of our offshore energy infrastructure? The
lessons from the incident on the Iberian Peninsula are abundantly clear. We must retain inertia in our grids to keep it stable and
resilient.
Nuclear power provides vital baseload power generation
13:42
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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along with inertia which would have helped to mitigate a cascading failure like that scene earlier this week. So the honourable gentleman of
week. So the honourable gentleman of the nuclear industry these are to do the asking for uncommitted 24 GW of nuclear power like the previous
nuclear power like the previous government did? Will he ask the NISO
to provide this House with a full transparent update on the role of inertia in our power system, the consequences of declining inertia,
consequences of declining inertia, the impact that hasn't grid stability and the costs associated.
And finally the Minister said the Great Britain has never experienced
Great Britain has never experienced a complete shutdown like that seen on the continent so what assurances can the mist offer this House the
work is being undertaken so NISO and National Grid are prepared for a
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black start if that is needed? I will start with the more
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I will start with the more serious elements of the honourable gentleman's questions and then might come back to gently reminding him he
come back to gently reminding him he was in office not that long ago on some of the questions he raises. But
some of the questions he raises. But just in the serious point, can I first agreed entirely with him on his opening point that the first priority of my department and the
government is to ensure energy security to make sure that particular points he raises, which I think the last few days Spain and
think the last few days Spain and Portugal have brought a real light is just how much of our day-to-day
lives are dependent on the functioning electricity system, so it's right to make that point and we are very aware of the point.
In the
detailed points he raises, I'm surprised in fact he didn't recognise some of the work the
previous government did on building the renewable system and the inertia
that they in fact introduced into the system because it started a number of years ago but he's not done that. And what I would say is that we have a resilient grid in
this country, it's important to couldn't have that which means building new grid in the structure
which the honourable gentleman quite often opposes along with a number of his colleagues.
It's important to
build that and to invest in it. We will continue to work with the NISO and with others to make sure your
understanding the full courses of this outage. I won't be drawn on
13:44
Bill Esterson MP (Sefton Central, Labour)
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speculation about what may or may not have caused it because clearly the first priority of the Spanish government and the Portuguese
government and the Portuguese government has been restoring power but they will carry out investigations to find out what the
investigations to find out what the cause has been, and we will implement any lessons from that. Finally he was right to reflect on operation mighty oak which was
carried out under the previous government. We've been taking forward those recommendations right across government. My honourable
across government.
My honourable friend the Chancellor is looking at resilience across the government as well and these are important points
well and these are important points that I would just say gently that energy security is an absolute
priority for this government. That means putting the energy infrastructure this country needs
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and not opposing it at every turn. There are some inconvenient truths for those on the benches opposite wishing to claim low carbon
opposite wishing to claim low carbon energy for what happened in Spain
energy for what happened in Spain and Portugal. As the Minister said, the cause of the outage is unknown
at this stage. And in 2003 of course, when there was a blackout in
course, when there was a blackout in Switzerland and in Italy, in 2006 when the same happened in Germany and in fact the whole of the
13:45
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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and in fact the whole of the continent, there were no renewables on the system. It really rather does
go to show that it is far too early
to speculate. Gas sets the price for our electricity, 90% of the time in
this country. Those who are opposing the transition to low carbon energy
generation are opposing energy security for this country. They are
opposing lower prices for our constituents, and they are opposing good well-paid jobs. That's the
truth of what this agenda from the
truth of what this agenda from the
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Just to reiterate the point that
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Just to reiterate the point that he made that I will make a number of times during the statement, I suspect, I will not be drawn on unfounded claims and speculation
unfounded claims and speculation about what the causes might be. It is right for authorities in Spain and Portugal to carry out
and Portugal to carry out investigations and share the investigations. We will be in close contact about that. It is too early
contact about that. It is too early for hasty conclusions, particularly based on unfounded claims.
The
based on unfounded claims. The broader point is right, constituents around the country are paying too
13:46
Claire Young MP (Thornbury and Yate, Liberal Democrat)
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much for electricity bills because of the role of gas setting the price in the system and the more we build
in the system and the more we build renewables and push gas of is the
renewables and push gas of is the marginal price setter, more bills will come down. We must make sure they are not subject to the volatility of the fossil fuel
volatility of the fossil fuel markets like now. He is right that it is the right journey to beyond and is right for energy security and
and is right for energy security and the parties opposite should support that.
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that. Thanks to the Minister for the
statement and our thoughts are with those affected by the power outages which are a stark reminder of how
key energy security is to national security and that is why it is vital the government learned from the incident by acting to boost home-
13:47
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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grown energy by supporting home- grown projects and increasing
grown projects and increasing capacity. In terms of preparations in this country, we must now. What
conversation savvy minister had across government to ensure there are robust plans in place if there
are robust plans in place if there are similar incidents to those that
are similar incidents to those that have happened in Portugal and Spain? What is in place to protect hospitals, transport, urgent health care, emergency communication, which
care, emergency communication, which currently relies heavily on the
mobile network for an emergency alert as well as being the primary way people stay up to date.
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Just to repeat the point that I made to the shadow minister, it is
made to the shadow minister, it is right to point out the cascading impacts of power failure and the
impacts of power failure and the sheer amount of our lives that are driven by electricity. There was a
driven by electricity. There was a point I did not respond to about preparations around government and I
preparations around government and I am responsible for Energy,
am responsible for Energy, Resilience, and Security.
The Secretary of State takes
responsibility for this and the Chancellor is responsible for resilience across government, looking at specific impacts and
13:49
Jessica Morden MP (Newport East, Labour)
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recently we discussed the impact of power cuts caused by recent storms to make sure people can still communicate and particularly in the
communicate and particularly in the mobile phone network. These are important points to take forward and clearly the energy system is
clearly the energy system is resilient the job of government is to prepare for all eventualities,
however low the chance of them happening. We take the preparation
happening. We take the preparation seriously and also making sure the government is ready to try out these processes and learn from experiences
processes and learn from experiences like this.
There will be things we can learn from the Spanish and Portuguese governments. We will do
that.
13:49
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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Renewing calls for establishing a
battery storage facility and the coal-fired power station in Newport
which will be one of the biggest in the UK when complete. As we scale up energy predictions, battery storage
facilities like this will be vital. Will the Minister say more about
what he is doing to support the work of battery storage companies? of battery storage companies?
13:49
Harriet Cross MP (Gordon and Buchan, Conservative)
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They will be crucial in terms of
storage and batteries will play an important role in that, making sure we can store the clean and cheap
energy. We have announced that the government the first non-duration energy storage which will build the
assets to store eight hours of power and that is key in a system like
this and I am always happy to visit the constituency and I'm happy to do
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that. Congratulations on your remarkable London Marathon, Harriet Cross.
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Cross. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Centrica operates the gas storage
Centrica operates the gas storage site which provides 50% of the current capacity in the UK. The are standing to invest £2 billion of
standing to invest £2 billion of their own capacity to develop the largest storage facility in Europe,
13:50
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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largest storage facility in Europe, capable of storing natural gas and hydrogen, improving resilience and protecting customers from price
bites and among the investment the company needs assurances and clarity from the government, not least of a
regulatory support and a workable fraud mechanism. Cut the matters set
out what progress has been made in discussions for Centrica to develop
this mechanism? What we have seen
with British Steel about the government making decisions when it chooses to, why has this decision been allowed to drag on for months?
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I congratulated the audible lady
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I congratulated the audible lady yesterday on her remarkable marathon. I think it was two hours faster than me, leaving considerable
13:51
Ruth Cadbury MP (Brentford and Isleworth, Labour)
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room for improvement on my part. I've met Centrica on a number of
occasions to announce many things and the issue of rough storage was last talked about in this House a
few months ago and it was mothballed for a number of years under the
previous government and were looking at the role it can play in energy security and the value for money
arguments to make sure value for money for the public is protected.
13:51
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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The honourable lady has knocked
me off my place as the second fastest woman marathon runner here.
I will be back. Thousands of airline passengers were impacted by the outage across Spain and Portugal but
only 500 flights were grounded out
of a possible 6000 that managed to fly and this was because there were
no airport closures. Is there a lesson for UK airports here? lesson for UK airports here?
13:52
Richard Tice MP (Boston and Skegness, Reform UK)
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I think she is referring to the
recent situation at Heathrow and there is a report due which was commissioned by the Secretary of
State after that and we will find out the qualities of that issue. Airports are private businesses but
being important critical national infrastructure, we have a role as a government in making sure the
function and so any lessons we can
would be invaluable but I will not be drawn on the conclusions of a report that the government has not seen yet.
13:53
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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Before the Spanish blackouts, we
had two outages that were well
expected with one in Lincolnshire and we were not going to be told about it but now we do now and it
seems to me the increasing reliance on renewables, with many concerned about fluctuations from voltage, this is now becoming a serious risk.
Whilst the Minister is confident,
will he confirm to the House that
NESO will tell us about future outages.
13:53
Luke Murphy MP (Basingstoke, Labour)
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The energy is resilient and
robust but there are outages and the system continues to function as indeed it did without any concern at
all on the incidents he raises. It is not regular but outages happen and particularly in the energy
system across the UK and I take away
the point about transparency but I suspect the answer will be that this is day-to-day running of the system and not something to be alarmed about at all.
13:54
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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I welcome the statement and there should really Minister has approached it. As he and others have
said, these type of blackouts are in systems caused by fossil fuel and
renewables. I welcome his rejection
of the honourable members on the
benches opposite who have jobs to blame renewables for the issue. Is it not the case is that the benches opposite want to weaponise this
because of an ideological obsession against clean energy which will
leave my constituents colder and poorer while they enjoy the warm embrace of Vladimir Putin?
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My honourable friend always puts the point in his particular style
the point in his particular style and in a perhaps more political
and in a perhaps more political
13:55
Sir Bernard Jenkin MP (Harwich and North Essex, Conservative)
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style but inspect -- Inspector is a different one. We do not the causes
and we will wait for the full response of any investigation that will be carried out by the relevant authorities rather than jumping to
authorities rather than jumping to
speculation. But, it does betray the truth of this and that is that for many honourable members, this is an
ideological, extreme and damaging opposition to clean energy that the party of the honourable gentlemen
and others including the party opposite that defended us for a long time seem to be working together on
time seem to be working together on and they want to leave us colder, poorer, in the pocket of Putin, and we want accepted.
13:56
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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In terms of the items put forward
by Sue Tony Blair to his think tank,
can be Minister tell us what it is he disagrees with?
13:56
Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)
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I have been a little busy and have not read all of the report. I will prioritise it for weekend reading earlier today I did... I
reading earlier today I did... I
apologise. What I did see is that the outlined clearly support for clean power as an important
transition for this country. The shadow minister earlier said it was
about wind and solar and that has never been the position. Nuclear will play a critical role and so
will CCUS as double hydrogen and this was outlined in the report by
Tony Blair.
13:57
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for the compressor statement and the comments on the importance of batteries. Energy security is national security, he is right.
Technology linked to foreign states
is being added to the grid and it is smart and can be operated by third parties. What are we doing to protect the grid from those who
would seek to do our country and our way of life harm in Newcastle and up
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and down the UK? It is an important point, the issue of cyber security across the
issue of cyber security across the national infrastructure and day by day it becomes more and more
important. Clearly in our energy system as it becomes more complex
13:57
Rt Hon Stephen Flynn MP (Aberdeen South, Scottish National Party)
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and smart systems become how of all we interact with daily life, there
are increased risks with that and that is why cyber security is taken very seriously and why we are
looking across government at how we can have as robust processes as possible and we do not for a second
think that any of the actions that we have taken will be enough. We are looking at how cyber security develops and changes and how we can do more and the energy system is
do more and the energy system is
resilient and Ofgem has a role to play in making sure suppliers and individual companies take this seriously as well as government and seriously as well as government and that is an issue that I will continue to spend time focusing on.
13:58
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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the Minister will be aware
Peterhead gas station is the only high-power and high emotion gas
station and the Acorn project is key
to the future and he will be familiar with that. Can you confirm
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the intention to fully fund that as part of the CSR. The honourable gentleman raised
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The honourable gentleman raised this point yesterday, the honourable
gentleman from Dumfriesshire, and the Secretary of State will take it away around the black star
away around the black star capabilities around the UK but on
capabilities around the UK but on the point of Acorn, we've made this a number of times and is an important project and the government supports the project and it is a
supports the project and it is a question for the spending review which will come in June.
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Energy resilience comes from the supply. The major cause of the financial crisis is the insecurity
financial crisis is the insecurity supply of fossil fuel markets. Ukraine is the latest. The last
Ukraine is the latest. The last government, in answer to a parliamentary question, admitted the
parliamentary question, admitted the localised cost of gas was £114 per megawatt hour and offshore wind was
megawatt hour and offshore wind was £44. The Minister may be aware that wind and solar are not known as
wind and solar are not known as great emitters of greenhouse gas and so it is clean, cheap, secure Ash renewables and it'll just go
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together. My honourable friend has been a champion of these issues for a long
champion of these issues for a long
14:00
Rt Hon Sir Roger Gale MP (Herne Bay and Sandwich, Conservative)
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time and it will not surprise him to hear that clean and cheap and secure
is right and when we invited many countries in the world to the summit last week of what was clear that this is not the UK on the transition
but the rest of the world is moving at pace to divest from fossil fuels
and invested renewables that the liberty secure energy system under
movie volatility that all constituents continue to pay the price for. It is the only way forward that the government is determined to move ahead with it.
14:00
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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the Minister is fully aware of my total opposition to the construction
of a 90-foot-high conversion
station. The National Grid's project is vulnerable to physical attack and
cyber attack and is based very
largely on the provision of power from weather -related sources. Isn't
it time we visited all of this and look seriously at speeding up the process of acquiring some nuclear
14:01
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The final point I'm very happy to agree with him, Summers will play an important part. It's an exciting
proposition the UK can be at the forefront of, the technology competition will conclude shortly so I do agree with him on that point.
But in the broader point, we do get the heart of the contradiction here where the party opposite want to talk about resilience of the network but able to build any new network infrastructure. I'm afraid the two
infrastructure. I'm afraid the two go hand in hand.
If you want to have power, want to have a resilient network, you can't just stay in the network, you can't just stay in the same place we were 60 years ago, yet you have to build some stuff.
14:01
Pamela Nash MP (Motherwell, Wishaw and Carluke, Labour)
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Thank the Minister for coming here today. And giving us this
14:02
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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here today. And giving us this
statement had also due graduate him on the completion of the London
on the completion of the London Marathon. Does he not share my utter disappointment and concern that members of the party opposite wasted no time at all you see the
no time at all you see the unfortunate events that are affecting our friends in Spain and Portugal to further their dated
Portugal to further their dated opposition to clean power. But this
risks panic and misinformation at a time where we need patience and clear heads.
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I thank my honourable friend for that question and for drawing attention to my appalling time in
attention to my appalling time in the marathon. Thank you. Very kind of you. She raises a really
of you. She raises a really important point. The serious response to an incident like this, an unprecedented incident is to take
an unprecedented incident is to take stock of what actually happened to introduce some facts into the debate
14:02
Christine Jardine MP (Edinburgh West, Liberal Democrat)
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introduce some facts into the debate again. I know some people don't like to see facts in these debates but I think it's important to allow a proper investigation to find out
what caused it and yes, to learn
lessons from it, and there will of course be lessons to learn from this but what I'm not going to do is rush headlong into an ideological
argument that damages our energy security by suggesting that somehow we just get back to the past and everything will be fine first the clean energy transition is right for
climate, right jobs, in the supply chains, rifle bringing down bills
and write for this country.
14:03
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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I welcome by the Minister has
outlined today and his reassurances about resilience, particularly to
cyber attack. However, there is also the danger that if we handover the
on off switch to vital energy suppliers to foreign countries, they can be switched off without our
control, so can he tell me what mitigations the government is considering for projects like the
vast windfarm in the North Sea which the Chinese company want to provide the hardware for?
14:03
John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)
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I'm not going to be drawn on an individual commercial arrangement
that the project may or may not have. As I've outlined before, in any investment case the government
will carry out a number of cheques and that, one of which will always be a national security check so
these questions will of course be looked at. I would reject the suggestion that this somehow gives
an on off switch. That's not the position the government would take but we look at all of these investment decisions individually and it's not for me to do on the
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floor of the House. The role of business regarding
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The role of business regarding the grid is important, and GB no
the grid is important, and GB no further in my constituency make rotating stabilisers. The Minister
rotating stabilisers. The Minister and I could have benefited from those on Sunday running the London Marathon but the shadow sector of
Marathon but the shadow sector of state and the honourable member the
state and the honourable member the Gordon began and I congratulate them on their absolute superb and very fast times, much quicker than my
14:05
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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honourable friend and I. Rotating stabilisers are actually enormous electromagnets that have been deployed around the UK as part of National Grid's Pathfinder program
National Grid's Pathfinder program to strengthen vulnerable areas of
to strengthen vulnerable areas of the grid. Now GE over tell me one is operating in Scotland now and is proven it can prevent more serious great disturbance in other projects
great disturbance in other projects to deliver these across the UK first this government is investing more than ever in grid upgrades and
infrastructure, which is good for the country, give the economy and it affects places like rugby where we
affects places like rugby where we built vital parts of this with knock-on effect on the local supply chain, on skills development and so
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on and this is a really good thing that should be celebrated. I thank him for the question. He
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I thank him for the question. He raises the point around what we are
raises the point around what we are doing to deploy technologies in the clean power system to make it more resilient, particular the question
14:05
Rt Hon David Mundell MP (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
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of rotating stabilisers and these technologies were actually introduced in some cases by the previous government so that was a recognition of the importance of
this and we will continue to build on that, but he also raises I think the wider point that this transition
to building a clean power system is just about the generation we get out of it but it's also about how we bring the good well-paid jobs that
deliver it as well and the supply chains and investing in industry right across the country, including
in my honourable friend's constituency.
That's what we've committed to doing and driving forward. It's why the promised
announced 3 -- Prime Minister
announced £300 million and why we will fight for this transition what the party opposite turned against it.
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I didn't run the London Marathon,
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I didn't run the London Marathon, and I never will. But I am hugely admiring of all the colleagues who
did, particularly the honourable lady for Gordon and Buckingham, for
14:06
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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lady for Gordon and Buckingham, for her incredible time. The Minister referenced the point I made yesterday in relation to the great
in Scotland. In particular to previously expressed concerns about
the amount of time that it would
take to reboot that grid if there was an outage. And as we've seen in Spain and Portugal, there is obviously significant disruption if
the grid is off four hours, but if the grid was of four days, that
would be very very significant and much harder to manage.
So will he
just confirm again that the department will specifically look at that issue?
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I'd say to the right honourable gentleman never say never. I'm sure
14:07
Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )
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he's got it in him, I know he has. But just to say I do entirely agree with him, and I think in some ways
what we saw in the news of the impacts on day-to-day life from what
happened in Spain and Portugal, his absolute right to say if that was to go on for longer than what was a few days, would have quite significant
impact. One of the things we look at very closely as the cascading effects and what part of the system
we reboot faster than others to deliver priority services such as
the NHS is that we will continue to do that, but the point you raised yesterday and today around different parts of the UK and Scotland and how
parts of the UK and Scotland and how quickly they would be repeated is an important one and I will take that away.
away.
14:08
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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I wonder with all these marathon runners in the House today whether we might be to generate some kinetic
energy rather than the usual hotair? But generally my congratulations to all those who did run. Apologise. I
didn't expect a pylon for that. Another energy choke. The major
concern of residents in my constituency of Harlow is the ageing grid infrastructure, so can I ask
the Minister what work he has done
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to ensure that we have the infrastructure that we need to ensure constituencies like mine of Harlow have the power to shine? I think you need to make a real
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I think you need to make a real on drawing to an end make a ruling
on drawing to an end make a ruling on trying to Marathon -related puns in the House. But the subject is really important one and is of
really important one and is of course why we are in this print was
building more network infrastructure because there are two things really important to recognise with our
14:09
Alison Bennett MP (Mid Sussex, Liberal Democrat)
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important to recognise with our network. First of all it can't stay in the state it's in forever, it needs upgrading but secondly the
demand we fully expect to see potentially doubling by 2050, maybe even more than that means we are going to have to build more grid to
bring the power to where it is necessary to deliver economic growth. It's right we move forward with that, but everyone will need to
recognise that not to deliver that system, thankfully -- frankly whether or not we are delivering clean power or not, the network is
necessary, stuff has to get built somewhere, the government is
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committed to building and the party opposite is committed to opposing it. About ask the Minister to expand
14:09
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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About ask the Minister to expand a little on a question put to him by my honourable friend the member of the Thornbury & Yate. The PS TM or
the Thornbury & Yate. The PS TM or public switched telephony network switch off means that by the end of
2027, all landlines will require an
electricity supply. So this means that the mobile network becomes ever more vital for people who require
their mobile phones for Medicare or even to make a 999 call in the event
of an emergency.
So what assessment has been made of the resilience of
the Nobel network -- mobile network
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in the event of power outages and what more needs to be done to make sure we're ready for that kind of situation? I thank her for that important
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I thank her for that important question, and think I was here after Storm Eowyn where we discussed this issue that number of people no
issue that number of people no longer have copper wire line actually went over to contact emergency services, a really
emergency services, a really important point. There is resilience built into the mobile phone network
built into the mobile phone network to ensure masts should be able to
14:11
Markus Campbell-Savours MP (Penrith and Solway, Labour)
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to ensure masts should be able to operate even if the power is cut off, so it's a question for Ofcom to look at and it's one that I have
spoken to my colleagues in DSIT about an DCMS to make sure that's happening. There's more we could do with it so we are engaging with the
electricity networks Association who work with the DNOs to make sure that
all these resilient plants all join up and the practical impact the honourable lady rightly raises are
taken into account.
It's a question
I will write to her with updates on.
14:11
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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As my honourable friend above rugby has highlighted, synthetic
inertia technologies are used to simulate the benefits traditional turbine technologies provided to an
electricity grid now increasing supplied by renewables. As the
Minister satisfied that we have sufficiently invested in these technologies to provide resilience across the grid? And is there an
argument to surge protection devices
which wiring regulations mandate for nearly all new domestic and commercial installations should be installed to all homes and
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businesses? On the surge protection point, I
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On the surge protection point, I will take that away and speak to my colleagues in MHC OG, I think it's
14:12
Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)
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an interesting point to raise. On the wider point around inertia, clearly as the system changes there
was a constant balancing job carried out by the NISO to make sure we design a system that is resilient,
so a question that will be under constant review. It's one we will look at, but we are deploying
technologies to ensure the system is resilient and to ensure there is sufficient inertia by procuring these alternative technologies that
my honourable friend has referenced, but it's the people constantly keep
under review.
Make it something we will constantly.
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Not wishing to inflict a by-
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Not wishing to inflict a by- election on the citizens in my constituency and not be running a
constituency and not be running a marathon now or any time in the future. The Minister quite rightly said the cause of the outage in Spain is yet to be identified, but
Spain is yet to be identified, but the fact is that it is linked to the fact that 53% of electricity that day was being generated from
day was being generated from renewable sources. And that should
be a sobering warning to all in this House who have been championing the decarbonisation of electricity and
the net zero policy.
And I'm glad there is inertia built into the system, but the Minister has only
accepted that this increases the cost of electricity on every week
14:14
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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because we've got to build a new
because we've got to build a new network to deal with spikes and electricity. We have to build factory storage, which increases the
factory storage, which increases the cost of electricity, and keep gas generators idling over expensively,
generators idling over expensively, which is out of -- added to consumer bills, in order to bring them on grid when the wind drops. Some the Minister accept minor he has to
Minister accept minor he has to defend the policy of his boss that they are going to get cheaper electricity, even though there is no
electricity, even though there is no evidence of that, but will he accept that building inertia into the system is going to add considerably
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to consumers bills? I'm afraid I don't accept
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I'm afraid I don't accept anything gentle just said. He said in his first breath was right to wait the outcomes of the
wait the outcomes of the investigation and then prejudged the investigation. I would wait for some actual evidence from the authorities and this was a piece wrong as well
and this was a piece wrong as well about the cost and what people often forget is that Gastineau alleges the system doesn't appear out of thin
system doesn't appear out of thin air, comes with a cost to build new gas power stations in the first place, which we would have to if we
didn't move gas office -- of the system.
It comes with AE volatility
of being an internationally traded thing. Gas is not free, comes at a
thing. Gas is not free, comes at a cost, and so we will have to build infrastructure, even if we were building clean how infrastructure,
the grid is still critical because you have to get alleges it into people's houses, so I think it's really important to say there were no zero cost options here. What we
no zero cost options here. What we are doing is investing now in a clean power system that delivers considerably cheaper power in the long term.
14:15
Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)
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I commend what the Minister said
14:15
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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at the outset of his statement. To do with the need to ensure against
do with the need to ensure against high impact low probability events. So in a non-dogmatic spirit, may I
So in a non-dogmatic spirit, may I appeal to him to reconsider the way in which the government is dealing
in which the government is dealing with the question of the two Shell gas wells, which they have decided
gas wells, which they have decided under normal circumstances they would not wish to see exploited but
14:15
Dave Doogan MP (Angus and Perthshire Glens, Scottish National Party)
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would not wish to see exploited but surely they should not be sealed so permanently that if we were in a
wartime conflict situation, they
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I am happy to look into that case. I am not aware of the specific circumstances at the end of the question but I'm happy to look into
question but I'm happy to look into the broader point is we do not see licensing for new oil and gas and
licensing for new oil and gas and fracking as part of the future and there is presumption against it and
there is presumption against it and we have a resilient energy system
we have a resilient energy system and I will take that away and write to him.
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to him. Ministers left himself exposed. He's come with an absence of any
understanding of what has happened and he has denied Parliament the ability to discuss strategic
assessment between the resilience of
the grid in Great Britain and in Iberia. We cater for the more
valuable discussion if he had. She has said they are ready for all
14:17
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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eventualities but tell that to the customers left high and dry by his department. He says he has every
department. He says he has every confidence in the operator but I did not have confidence on January 7 and
not have confidence on January 7 and we could have had a difficult situation on the GP led without the
situation on the GP led without the Viking Interceptor. Trying to instil
Viking Interceptor. Trying to instil confidence in the public on GBE after an episode on March 21 at
Heathrow which saw global consequences for a relatively localised disaster in the UK energy
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market, how does she have confidence after those events? The right honourable gentleman
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The right honourable gentleman brings his customary sunny demeanour to his questions and I'm grateful
to his questions and I'm grateful for that. I am giving this statement
for that. I am giving this statement to the House because a number of honourable members asked questions
honourable members asked questions on this issue and it is right that they respond to the questions and I think I would be criticised if I did
think I would be criticised if I did not offer a statement.
It was in response to honourable members across the House and different
parties during the statement. The question he raises about the
question he raises about the
capacity questions in January, he is quite wrong and this is based on,
14:18
David Reed MP (Exmouth and Exeter East, Conservative)
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quite wrong and this is based on,
not untruth, but by the largest power generator in the system which,
power generator in the system which, according to NESO it was never lower than 3.7 GW. It is simply not true
than 3.7 GW. It is simply not true
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than 3.7 GW. It is simply not true to repeat the idea that it was 580 MW of capacity in the system because it was never more than 3.7 GW. Recent events in Spain and
14:19
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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Portugal highlight the challenges facing the power grids. These
incidents assure the complexity for reporting and the ability to respond
reporting and the ability to respond rapidly and there are multiple
departments including energy, they DSIT, and more. Who is responsible
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DSIT, and more. Who is responsible and more importantly do they have the right skill sets to respond? I thank the honourable gentleman
for the important question and it is one that the Chancellor has been
14:20
Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)
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trusted with and there are clearly individual departments to take responsibility and to lead on parts
responsibility and to lead on parts of this and the COVID enquiry raised
of this and the COVID enquiry raised question about how that is handled and there are clearly a number of
and there are clearly a number of departments with expertise in how the system works and I paid tribute to the team that are the iron out of
to the team that are the iron out of hours when the storms and incidents take place.
The question about reporting is important and partly
reporting is important and partly what government is looking to do
with the approach and do what the Chancellor is doing is bringing together all of government so everyone with responsibility is at
everyone with responsibility is at the table feeding in views but he makes an important point.
14:20
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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There are over 100 battery energy storage facilities operating in the
UK and another one is planned for east Devon and the residents are worried about the fire risk and
South Korea is a global leader but the safety issues are playing. There
were 38 linked in South Korea up to
2022. The Minister commit to
reviewing the technology and looking at solutions subject to less risk
than BESS?
14:21
Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)
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I would firstly say fire is a risk in a range of scenarios and just because there has been some
incidents, but is not inherent in
the infrastructure. Batteries will play a crucial role in the future energy system but we take these issues seriously and he is right to
raise them and the health and safety executive has a role around this and
so does the planning committee and it will be kept under review, particularly as the number
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increases. When the sun does not shine and
14:21
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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When the sun does not shine and the wind does not blow, electrons do
not flow and that happens predictably in northern Europe and particularly in the cold and dark
winter months. As it plans to increase the resilience of the UK grid, will he look at the place when
the wind doesn't blow and the sun does not shine, south-west Morocco, and support the power project which
could potentially deliver 8% of the UK grid needs reliably and
resiliently.
14:22
David Simmonds MP (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner, Conservative)
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I anticipated the question in the first few sections and the secretary
of state David answered yesterday that this has been a private proposal and it has not been driven
forward by government. We are considering it at the moment and the secretary of state said yesterday
that we are happy to brief the right
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honourable gentleman on those details and make a decision in due course. That is the end of the statement on Energy Grid Resilience. I will
on Energy Grid Resilience. I will
on Energy Grid Resilience. I will let the Frontbench move over. Point of order, David Simmonds.
14:23
Naz Shah MP (Bradford West, Labour)
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May I see your guidance? My constituent is without an income
because her Pension Credit application which was made in July
2024 remains outstanding and I think guidance on further steps I can take
to secure a response from the Department of Work and Pensions. My
diligent caseworker has chased this on numerous occasions and we are
on numerous occasions and we are advising has been escalated to management. We have had no response. What further assistance can you give?
14:23
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I am grateful for the advance
14:23
Presentation of Bills
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warning of the point of order. The Minister of correspondence is not a
matter for the chair but all honourable members should be entitled to expect a timely reply
14:23
Ten Minute Rule Motion: UK–USA Trade Agreements (Parliamentary Scrutiny)
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then contacted and when they are contacting government departments on behalf of constituents and I'm sure the Frontbench will have noted the
comments and will no doubt receive a
14:24
Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)
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response in due course. We are moving over to the presentation of
moving over to the presentation of
moving over to the presentation of Parliamentary scrutiny of trade agreements build. We are going onto
agreements build. We are going onto
the Ten Minute Rule Motion which is UK-USA Trade Agreements
(Parliamentary Scrutiny) Bill. I called Richard Foord.
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I beg to move that leave be brought in to ensure any trade
agreements between the UK and USA which the government proposes to implement without the approval by resolution of each House to make
resolution of each House to make provision for the amendment of such
agreements by Parliament for these purposes. Let's cast our minds back four years to spring to 21. Liz
four years to spring to 21. Liz Truss was Secretary of State for
International Trade and Boris Johnson was Prime Minister and the export of British goods to the EU had fallen sharply and the end of
the Brexit transition period with the amount.
The government was in a
hurry. Boris Johnson sat down for dinner with the Australian Prime Minister in Westminster. After three
hours of small talk and plenty more, Boris Johnson agreed to remove the
tariffs on number of products including B. The government knew it
would harm UK agriculture and food industries and the analysis predicted the deal would leave the
predicted the deal would leave the
UK sector £278 million worse off. The High Commissioner had been sitting at the table and moved quickly and scribbled down the
generous pledge.
He excused himself
to go to the toilet and the High Commissioner handed them the note. It was scanned within minutes and
turned into a document and printed and put in a folder. The High Commissioner casually walked back in
carrying the so-called deal. That
was all it took to sell out UK farmers, a wine -soaked dinner, I hastily scribbled note and a Prime
Minister prepared to ignore good advice. Without proper parliamentary
scrutiny and a deal with the US, we risk adding pressure to farmers and
stripping away safeguards on data and sidelining democratic scrutiny
itself.
Currently, parliamentary scrutiny in the UK is inadequate and
the government to negotiate with another country, even one as
significant as the US, with cognitive powers without putting in to vote in Parliament. Under the
existing constitutional reform
government act, CRAG, it must be in place for 21 sitting days in Parliament can raise objections but there is no requirement for a vote.
It is advisory and not binding. The evidence was provided in the other
place last year and it showed how outdated the treaty scrutiny system
is and trade agreements have evolved and become more competitive.
Modern
trade deals which deep into domestic policy and shape the food standards
and data rates and even the
regulation of AI. If backbench MPs are shut out of the process, so are the people that we represent. Parliamentary scrutiny was
demonstrably weak in the wake of UK trade deals with Australia and New
Zealand. The International Trade to condemn the government approach and said it undermined scrutiny. The
government of Boris Johnson did this by triggering a sitting period before evidence was received of
reports on the trade deal.
This meant Parliament had little information with which to assess the agreements. When the deal was
signed, Labour, then an Opposition, demanded a parliamentary vote and
the government they would do well to heed previous calls for proper
scrutiny. In Easter and Mid Devon, farmers represent happy hit hard by
poorly negotiated trade deals with Australia and New Zealand on top of
planned changes to inheritance tax and closure of the sustainable farming incentive. Even if a future
deal upholds the food standards, West Country farmers and others could still be undermined and the government offers assurances about
government offers assurances about
shutting out 1-treated -- hormone- treated beef and chlorine chicken.
The government has assured us there will be no compromise on environmental and animal welfare standards in the UK. The securities count for little if imports from
overseas are not produced to the same environmental standards and at the same high requirements for high
animal welfare. The UK is already too reliant on imported food and it
sees imports making up 40% of the
food supply from 2033, down from 70% in 1984, when we had 70% self-
sufficiency. I should say, we got to 60% self-sufficiency today.
There
are those who say some sectors will always fall victim to trade negotiations and government has
balanced the demands of various industries. Some of the factors
being discussed currently by the negotiators are crosscutting and that includes matters of digital
trade and data. The US wants a digital first deal which would mean locking in rules that protect the
interests of Silicon Valley, not the British public. It has already speculated that the government is
considering reducing or scrapping the Digital Services Tax, which
could cut tax for some of the wealthiest and most powerful
American companies at the expense of the users of public services here in
the UK.
The OBR forecast this tax raised £700 million in 2024-25. Revenue that the Treasury can ill
Revenue that the Treasury can ill
Vice president JD Vance alleged, " Old entrenched interests are hiding
behind ugly Soviet-era words like misinformation and disinformation." That sort of brand of free speech
pays little heed to facts. Advance may be representing some altogether
not transparent interests himself. The US is pushing to overcome data
localisation which could allow the
US to have its U.S.-based tech firms centred in the United States and all
of the data storage in the UK for the flight to Mobarik and weaken the protection for British citizens data making it difficult to enforce UK
privacy laws.
Take as an example the
contract that Pelletier agreed with the NHS in 2023 to install their federated data system. If the US-UK
trade deal was to restrict data
localisation it could allow NHS medical records to be exported to the US. Handing them the power to
exploit the enormous commercial value of British citizens data.
Although they claim it will only act
as a processor, it is rooted in a striking value from commercial data
ends. With access to one of the world's richest health datasets, they could potentially package insights, sell predictive analytic
services to private healthcare providers to insurers and
pharmaceutical companies.
The cofounder Peter feel has called the
NHS a system that makes people sick. He claims that freedom and democracy
are no longer compatible. Parliament should have the means to ensure that this understanding of freedom cannot
bypass British democracy. This isn't
just about trade. It's about trust. The Leader of the Opposition should know the right honourable member for
North West Essex was the secretary of state for international trade in
2023 when the Australia and New Zealand trade deals came into
effect.
The price was paid last time and it could happen again. Additionally our digital freedoms
pay the price too. This bill is simple, doesn't block a US deal, doesn't tie the governments hands.
It requires that Parliament has a greater say first that is what democracy demands, and that's what
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the public expect. The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. As many as are of
that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." I think the ayes
contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it the, the ayes have it. He
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will prepare and bring the bill? Tim Farron, Karen Miller, Helen Morgan, Sarah Olney, Edward Morello
and myself.
14:34
Points of Order Rt Hon David Davis MP (Goole and Pocklington, Conservative)
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Second reading what day? Friday, 16 May 2025.
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Friday, 16 May 2025. Friday, 16 May 2025. Point of
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order said David. Thank you. Today's Telegraph,
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Thank you. Today's Telegraph, Daily Telegraph scissors being reprimanded by the Independent press standards Organisation for reporting on remarks made in this chamber by
on remarks made in this chamber by the then community secretary Michael Gove. If so asserted that Telegraph
Gove. If so asserted that Telegraph should not have reported without having first given the right of
reply to the group who made the remarks related to. Press freedom is
a cornerstone of democracy centuries, the right to freely
report in the proceedings of this House have been protected in British law.
These freedoms allow the press
to report without any hindrance or conditionality, secured as long ago
as 1771 by John Wilkes. While IPSO may think they are being reasonable, the reference in the Telegraph
undermines their fundamental rights. So will she speak with the press
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organisation to remind them that the British press has an absolute right to report on what is said here in this chamber without any hindrance or conditionality? Thank the right honourable member
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Thank the right honourable member for his point of order and the
for his point of order and the notice of it. He's put his point on the record. Without commenting specifically on the IPSO ruling, because I understand the issue was not straightforwardly about the
not straightforwardly about the reporting of what was said in this House, I do of course support the principle that being able to report
14:36
Legislation: Sentencing Guidelines (Pre-Sentence Reports) Bill: Committee of the whole House and remaining stages
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on what is said here is extremely important. The clerk will now
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proceed to read the orders of the day. Sentencing Act pre-sentence reports bill committee.
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reports bill committee. Now.
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Order.
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Order. Sentencing Order. Sentencing pre-sentence
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reports bill. And I remind members that in committee, members should not
address the chair as Deputy Speaker. Please use our names when addressing the chair, Madam chair, chair and madam chairman and also acceptable.
14:36
Rt Hon Sir Jeremy Wright KC MP (Kenilworth and Southam, Conservative)
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madam chairman and also acceptable. We begin with Amendment one to clause 1 with which it will be
convenient to consider amendments three, two and four. The questions that clauses 1 and two stand part of
the bill and new clause 1. I call Sir Jeremy Wright to move Amendment
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one. Thank you very much. May I begin
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Thank you very much. May I begin by begging to move the amendment one removed in my name and speak to that
removed in my name and speak to that amendment and did to amendment 2 which is consequential on it? And one of the other amendments in the
one of the other amendments in the group. I think it's worthwhile at the outset of all debates on this
the outset of all debates on this bill restating the bill is about presentence reports, which give
information to sentences which may be used in sentencing decisions, not about the passing of sentences
themselves.
Specifically, this bill is about the guidelines issued by
the Sentencing Council to sentences about the circumstances in which a presentence report should normally
be asked for. And about the sort of information about an offender which
such a report may provide and which it may be appropriate to consider and take into account before
deciding on an appropriate sentence in that offenders case. There has
been broad agreement. I see the mother of the House in her place. I will not say unanimity, broad
agreement that a offenders
ethnicity, race, culture or faith are on their own not that sort of information and that the Sentencing Council is wrong to suggest a
presentence report should be ordered on that basis.
I would argue that is
because even if there may be points to make about the treatment or
experience of members of the ethnic faith or cultural group to which the
offender in question happens to belong, what is relevant to the sentencing of that offender can only be the treatment or experience to which the particular offender has
themselves been subject. Not whether they have arisen in the cases of
other members of the same group who were not before the court. That is
effectively the impact of amendment for in the name of my honourable friend the shadow Minister.
And
that's why in my view the government is right to seek to exclude, even
from the process of asking for a presentence report, let alone from
passing sentence itself the making of decisions based only on membership of such a group, and that is after all what the governor has
said this bill is for. These groups are described in the Explanatory Notes to the bill as particular
demographic cohorts. And if I make my want to quote from paragraph 8 of
those Explanatory Notes what paragraph 8 says that the bill is intended to ensure the sentencing
are drafted in such a way as to prevent differential treatment and
maintain equality before the law.
It does this by preventing the creation of a presumption regarding whether a presentence report should be
obtained based on an offender's membership of a particular demographic cohort. Rather than the
particular circumstances of that individual. But despite this
explanation in the Explanatory
Notes, the bill I think goes further than that. Prohibiting the Sentencing Council from including in a sentencing any provision, " Framed
by reference to different personal
characteristics of an offender." That's what clause 1 subclause two says, inserting language into the
Coroners and Justice Act of 2009.
I think the language in the bill is significantly wider in impact then
reference to membership of particular demographic cohorts, and
my view undesirably so. And that's why if put forward amendment one
which would adopt the language used in the Explanatory Notes. Let me explain why I think that would be
preferable. My starting point is that I don't believe all personal characteristics of an offender are
inappropriate to consider in a sentencing decision. There is of
course much more to be considered in a sentencing decision than simply information about the offender.
In particular the seriousness of the
offence and its consequences, but relevant information about the offender is needed as part of the
process. It can't then surely
therefore be right to prohibit the Sentencing Council from encouraging sentences to find out more about some of those personal
characteristics which are relevant in reaching a more informed and therefore better sentencing
decision. Example, a physical or learning disability or a brain injury from which an offender will
not recover. The relevance of that information is not just informing a
fuller picture of the offender to be
sentenced but also in assisting a sentencer to know whether that offender is capable of carrying out aspects of a community order, including work in the community,
which the sentencer may want to consider as a potential sentencing
option.
And it's worth underlining of course that the ordering of a presentence report, whatever it says
when it's produced, does not bind the hands of a sentencer to do as it
recommends. But the reality is without one, a sentences options are
often more limited, and that's why guidance on when to ask for a presentence report matters.
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Very grateful to my honourable friend giving way, and I defer to
friend giving way, and I defer to his experience, but there is an argument therefore if we are looking at individual cases for every
at individual cases for every individual to have one of these presentencing reports to be able to then truly understand the significance of what they faced
significance of what they faced whether any mitigating factors, I appreciate that could put a backlog
on the services themselves but is that not one possible solution to solve the problem that the Sentencing Council were worried
Sentencing Council were worried about about different cohorts having different sentencing outcomes at the end?
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I think it makes a fair point in relation to those offenders who hover on the border between community sentences and custodial
community sentences and custodial sentences, but he will know that in the Crown Court at least the
the Crown Court at least the majority of such offenders already do have a presentence report, but of course there are also offenders who
come before the courts the sentencing where either its blinding
obvious the custodial sentence will follow that neither a community sentence nor a coaster your sentence is realistically a prospect so it
would be right to say that in every case we should have a presentence report.
But I do think that there is
a presumption already in the law that presentence reports should be
ordered unless it is unnecessary to do so. We are seeking to do here I think is responsibly very specific set of circumstances that have arisen as a result of Sentencing
Council decision as he may have heard me say at second reading, getting the Sentencing Council
handle this well and as a result I think we are having to do something which otherwise we would not have to
do.
But sentencing offenders in all circumstances is a difficult business and the fact that different
offenders receive different sentences, even for the same offence is not necessarily evidence of a
defect in sentencing practice as a result of guidelines or otherwise, but is more likely a reflection of
the reality that every case and every offender is different. We should not I suggest be trying to
stop judges reaching the appropriate conclusion, assisted by Sentencing Council guidelines in each case for
them.
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Nobody is trying to stop judges sentencing in individual case. All
sentencing in individual case. All the Sentencing Council was seeking to do was to make sure that judges and magistrates had the maximum
and magistrates had the maximum amount of information before coming
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to a decision on the sentence. Yes will I think the right honourable lady is right that that
honourable lady is right that that is what the sentencing were aiming at. I'm afraid however, the way in which they were phrased rather
which they were phrased rather missed the mark in my view, and I think especially true to say that it
is a good thing in most sentencing cases to get as much information as you can possibly have, but of course the sentencing guidelines as she
will appreciate that particular
influence on sentences because they are obliged to follow them unless it's not in the interest of justice to do so.
So the toner to separate
the Sentencing Council in the guidelines they draft gives a good indication to sentences about the
sorts of things they are to take into account in sentencing. She had me say, I think is an important
point to make, we are talking about the ordering of presentence reports and not of sentencing itself, but
nonetheless as I said, if you don't have a presentence report, you limit
the number of options you can impose and similarly, if you do have a presentence report you give yourself more options as a sentencer so as
not relevant whether or not someone is encouraging sentences to order a
presentence report not.
My concern is that the way in which the Sentencing Council have gone about this is unhelpful, but I do also
think and you will hear me expand on this, that it would be wrong to throw the baby out with the
bathwater here and it's important also to recognise that some of the Sentencing Council guidelines are
profoundly helpful to sentences and that they indicate that we should be getting in many many cases relevant
information to consider individual
I think for all of those reasons, we should fetter the sentencing process
as much as we need to to make objections when questions of policy
arise.
That is what the government
has said it is trying to do. I met one would allow us to stop the
Sentencing Council from recommending presentence reports for those who belong to a demographic group but
not exclude them for those who have other personal characteristics clearly more relevant to the
decision and do not give rise to the so-called two-tiered justice. The
bill will still allow the Sentencing Council to issue guidelines
recommending presentence reports in order to explore the personal circumstances of an offender to be sentenced, even though it would be
prohibited in relation to personal
characteristics and so the question arises, can all the information about an offender that should be
properly taken into account in sentencing be justifiably described
as personal circumstances? I will concede there is danger of getting into fairly fine semantic
distinctions here, to me at least, characteristics are those things
which are intrinsic to the offender themselves circumstances are the circumstances in which they find
themselves and they are not the same.
Being pregnant, addicted, a primary carer, a victim of modern
slavery, could all be described as personal circumstances but disabilities are life altering
personal injuries feel more like characteristics. I suppose the point is that we don't need to get into
all of this to do the job the government wants to do and ministers
have made it clear they are seeking to target legislation carefully to avoid issues with the separation of
power and because they are not seeking to undermine the independence of the Sentencing
Council more than necessary to
wrestle back control.
I would suggest to the Minister that the more precise wording in amendment one which is also government
drafting, because it appears in the
explanatory notes, better meets the government's own aims and the
language currently in the bill and if you do not agree a copy can explain clearly why the government have taken the more expansive
approach. Finally, to say something about amendment three and the name
of the shadow minister and other right honourable friend, and I also
have concerns about the bread of language in that amendment.
I
recognise some middling to abolish a radically reform the Sentencing Council but the bill does neither of
those things and that means that the scope does not allow for wider
debate about the wider purpose and value and of course you would not allow that debate either. It is that
as and when this bill passes, the Sentencing Council will continue to
operate and so when we consider amending the bill further, we must have regard to the ability of the
council to do so effectively and convincingly.
The role that the
Sentencing Council plays can only be played effectively if the guideline started produces are authoritative
and sentences are only likely to see them as such if the council itself is seen as clearly independent and
makes its judgements from a legal
not political perspective. The third amendment says of the guidelines involving presentence reports must
be agreed by the Secretary of State and that the secretary of may
rewrite those guidelines herself. I think that there are two problems
with that.
Firstly, the Lord
Chancellor has made it clear and make sensible distinctions between guidelines that relate to matters of policy and those which relate to
matters of judicial discretion in specific sentencing cases, with the
latter being matters for the judiciary alone. I am not convinced that all conceivable guidelines
relating to presentence reports will qualify as matters of policy and so taking the call control of all such
guidelines with not be appropriate I
think. The second problem is that the approval of guidelines by the Secretary of State and even more so
the capacity for her to rewrite them is totally incompatible with the independence of the Sentencing Council.
The Sentencing Council
could be obliged to publish its name
guideline of which is fundamentally disapproved. As it stands, they must
consult the Lord Chancellor and
Justice Select Committee to see the chairman in his place but that is not the same as requiring ministerial approval to property
guideline but it is ministerial approval but is proposing the amendment, not Parliamentary, which
are very different things. What we are engaged and is discussing a parliamentary decision about the
guidelines, not allowing a minister to make the decision for him or
herself.
As I have said at the
second reading, I think by the handling of the issue, the Sentencing Council has brought on
itself this legislation and a wider discussion about its own future. We are not having that discussion
today. We are discussing legislation
which is intended to allow the Sentencing Council to continue to operate and to fulfil what I believe is an important task. There is a big
gap between legislation on one hand
and individual sentencing decisions on the other.
The Sentencing Council fills that gap and offers help to
sentences in the role and if the
council were not fulfilling that function, someone or something else
would have to do so and in that gap between legislation and individual cases, the closer we are to
legislation, the more likely the involvement is to be at the closer we are to individual cases, the more
danger that there is of trespassing on judicial independence and the separation of power. And so we should tread carefully and if we are to compromise the independence of
the Sentencing Council in substantial ways, we should all be
do with having considered all the implications of doing so.
That is not what this bill allows for. It is designed to do a specific job and I
think that it could do it even more specifically. Hence the amendments I have proposed. I beg to move.
have proposed. I beg to move.
14:53
Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)
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The question is that I -- amendment one be made.
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It is a pleasure to have this debate on this short bill and that
debate on this short bill and that the second reading I discussed the merits or otherwise and in
merits or otherwise and in particular how it affects the role of the Sentencing Council and the
of the Sentencing Council and the council has conducted the consultation on this guideline and the response to that consultation by the then-government in particular
the then-government in particular and the then-Select Committee through my predecessor has made.
I
through my predecessor has made. I also regretted that it had been used
as a mean to undermine independence and make attacks on judges under the guidance of belatedly objecting to
guidance of belatedly objecting to
the guideline and I agree entirely with this matter from last Thursday.
I don't propose to bring any of these arguments and I do not need to
spend a long time on the amendment. Those from the official opposition can do more than continue on another
can do more than continue on another
front.
They can assist the shadow Lord Chancellor in his quest for
higher office. I am more sympathetic to the role of the Liberal Democrats
spokesperson. There is a fractious
nature of debate around this bill and the relationship between the
Sentencing Council and the Minister of Justice and given that it would be sensible to review the effect of
the bill. I'm not sure we have to go back to legislation. The sentencing landscape is about to shift
fundamentally, with the imminent publication of the independent
sentencing review which is swiftly followed by the Sentencing Bill.
I
suspect this bill will be swallowed up in that process and the Lord Chancellor has indicated there may be a review of the role of the
Sentencing Council and without wanting to stir the pot further, I
have observed that if they were prepared to postpone the
implementation without the thought of legislation, these matters might
have been dealt with in one bill in the light of the recommendations. The amount of time, parliamentary
and ministerial, it has been spent debating this could, in my view, be better spent on other matters
better spent on other matters
requiring urgent attention in our
requiring urgent attention in our
I am grateful to my honourable friend the giving way.
Would he accept the reason we are here today is an error of judgement by the Sentencing Council and that they
have refused to back down on that until threatened with legislation and so does the amendment offer
greater protection to the public from future errors of judgement by
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the Sentencing Council? I don't want to repeat what I
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I don't want to repeat what I said at second reading but I've made
said at second reading but I've made a case for why we have prepared
a case for why we have prepared quite properly and they were complemented on the way that they conducted the consultation and I
conducted the consultation and I have sympathy with the council and
have sympathy with the council and the chair, albeit surprising, the
reaction of the stage, and the redoubtable -- the members would
redoubtable -- the members would
have stuck when confronted with the review as well as other members of this House.
They could have acted
differently to prevent us being here today. The are many other matters that need attention and my other
interests relate to the right honourable member and as I would
expect from a distinguished former Attorney-General, has amendments go
to the separation of the bill and Twitter, as drafted, it does what
the government intends to do. -- And
weather. I hope we can look at the characteristics caught by clause 1 and I will take a few moments to add
some related questions which I'm seeking the guidance of the Minister
on.
Firstly, the effect of the bill on sentencing guidelines already in
force. The legal effect of the bill is beyond community and custodial
sentence and future guidelines and
it will render unlawful provision framed by reference to different characteristics of an offender in all sentencing guidelines by the council that have already been
issued as definitive guidelines and are currently in force. The potential retrospective effect of
the bill upon the guidelines already
in force could create legal uncertainty as to the lawfulness of
particular guidance and guidance currently in force.
There are two
main examples of existing overarching guidelines in force that could be caught by the bill. The
guideline of sentencing children and young people at the Caitlin on sentencing offenders with mental disorders, developmental disorders,
or neurological impairments. A
significant number of defence- specific guidelines are framed by characteristics which have expanded
explanations referring to the need
to a presentencing report including the mitigating factor of age or a
lack of maturity in the aggravated burglary Caitlin.
Another example,
mitigating factor of pregnancy,
childbirth, postnatal care and then
considering the community service, they should be asked to address the
issues below at a suitable presentence report and if it is not
available the centre should be adjourned until one is available.
The Minister, in a letter to the chair of the Joint Committee On
Human Rights on April 24, "One the
bill is in force, any guidelines in subsection for a will cease to be
lawful and cease to have effect.
-- 4A. The bill will affect new and
existing guidelines and in practice this means some guidelines will be
affected by the bill, including offence-specific guidelines relating
to mitigating and aggravating factors which set a guidance on presentence reports for specific
presentence reports for specific
Has the government determined which existing guidelines will be rendered unlawful by the bill? Secondly why did the government decide to make
the provision in the bill apply to all guidelines rather than just the imposition of community and
custodial sentences guidelines, which was issued by the council as a
definitive guideline on 24 March 25.
Thirdly with the government be willing to limit the effect of the
bill so that it did not affect the legality of any guidelines currently
taking force on these matters in the interest of clarity. Secondly, there
is the matter of the characteristics. The bill states that guidelines produced by the council cannot include provision
framed by reference to personal characteristics. The bill then specified that personal
characteristics include in particular race, religion or belief and cultural background. The list is
not exhaustive and therefore also
covers other person characteristics, for example age, sex and sexual orientation.
Close one would
therefore render unlawful the following which were included in the
custodial sentence guideline. Adult female, the one we discussed I think
minority, pregnant and postnatal,
disclosing transgender or may have or has a serious chronic medical condition or physical disability. And there are others. Neither the
bill nor the Explanatory Notes provide any further guidance on the intended meaning of characteristic,
personal characteristics. The use of the term characteristics could mean that each of the protected characteristics as defined by the
Equality Act 2010, maybe called by the provision.
Chair of the joint
committee on human rights or wrote to the Lord Chancellor on 8 April
and asked from the question, is the term personal characteristics in the bill intended to exclude pregnancy,
motherhood and age to ensure guidelines that are consistent with
case law? The reply from the
Minister on 24th of April I refer to is, " The bill specified that personal characteristics including
race, religion or belief or cultural background. However this is a
nonexhaustive list and personal characteristics is also intended to cover a wide range of characteristics, including sex, gender identity, age, physical disbelief, and pregnancy status.
Pregnancy motherhood and age are therefore not excluded from the definition of personal
characteristics." The Explanatory
Notes the bill states that the bill does not affect Court of Appeal case law on the circumstances where a presentence report is either
necessary or desirable, and it then cites three cases. Thompson, where a
woman is pregnant or recently given birth, namely which involves young
defendants -- meanly, and, cash
where the defendant's dramatic upbringing as a victim of modern slavery meant a presentencing report should have been required.
The
Explanatory Notes make clear that the government does not intend to prevent the Court of Appeal or any other body from issuing guidance
relating to presentence reports from being framed by personal
characteristics. Other than ethnic, cultural, faith and minority communities. And it would appear to
indicate that it does not object in principle to such an approach. The Minister's letter makes it clear
that government objection lies with the council taking such an approach.
So again I ask the Minister the following questions, why does the bill take a nonexhaustive approach
to the definition of personal characteristics? With the government be willing to narrow the effect of
the bill so the only references to ethnic minority, cultural melody and faith in arty community would be
deemed unlawful? Could the governor explain why wishes to make it unlawful for the Sentencing Council
to produce guidance to require a presentence report for the defendant with a physical or mental
disability.
And finally, why is the government willing to accept the Court of Appeal can provide guidance
on whether a presentence report is needed by reference to personal circumstances my characteristics
were not willing to accept the Sentencing Council doing the same
thing? One final question, the
effect of clause 1 to prevent the inclusion of guidance framed by reference to personal
characteristics. With the bill prevent the council from making
indirect reference to personal characteristics throughout the reference to Court of Appeal case
law or mitigating factors in a guidelines relating to presentence reports? Those are the only matters
relating to the amendments here
today.
I am concerned that there are ramifications of the proposals in this bill which have not been
covered here. Now there -- it may be
able to be corrected in the other place, or we may have to wait until the sentencing bill in the autumn. While I entirely understand the
government's frustration with the Sentencing Council, I do not feel that this particular bill is a solution to the problems that it has
identified. And whereas I think the
consequences have been exaggerated in many respects, I also think that if we want not only a fair and
if we want not only a fair and robust system but one that is clear,
robust system but one that is clear, in dealing with pre-sentences reports needed, we need to return to this in a future occasion.
15:07
Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)
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Thank you. I thought he recorded
my support for the principle of this bill, which is unfortunately
necessary to uphold the principle of equal justice. I'd like to speak to
day in support of amendments three and four which further strengthen this legislation. Amendment three
gives the Justice Secretary the power to prevent future errors of
judgement by the Sentencing Council. It would require the council to secure ministerial consent before
issuing any sentencing guidelines concerning presentence reports.
We
should be clear that this is not a measure aimed at politicising
justice. We must ensure democratic oversight of a body that has shown
itself capable of committing such a serious error of judgement. Which
has led to the situation today. The reason we are legislating is because the sentencing Council's guidance
proposed treating offenders differently based on their ethnic,
cultural or religious identities. And that is wrong. Happily give way.
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The Sentencing Council at no point has suggested treating
point has suggested treating defendants differently according to ethnicity or religion. All the
ethnicity or religion. All the Sentencing Council has tried to do is to make sure that judges and
is to make sure that judges and magistrates have the maximum
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information. I'm grateful to the right honourable lady for her intervention. But what the
intervention. But what the Sentencing Council does say is that if for example, you are a white
Christian male, you are less likely to benefit from a presentence report and if you are a member of a
religious or ethnic minority. And I
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believe that is wrong. I appreciate the right honourable member giving way. But does the
member giving way. But does the right honourable member know that
right honourable member know that any defendant before the courts who has no previous convictions, despite
has no previous convictions, despite the seriousness of the offence, that individual would be entitled to a
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presentence report? Grateful to the honourable member
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Grateful to the honourable member for his intervention, and yes as a former solicitor, I'm familiar with that provision. And I agree that any
defendant who hasn't yet received a custodial sentence should have the
benefit of a presentence report. But imagine two criminals who both do
have a criminal record, and one is a member of a religious or ethnic minority and one is not. These
guidelines proposed treating them differently. And that is not
justice. Chevron isn't the fact that the sentencing guidance said it would normally be considered
necessary, and then went on to talk about race and religion? That is the
fundamental problem making those distinctions immediately apparent when looking at sentencing guidance,
which could mean that a white Christian male will be treated differently if they committed the same offence as someone from a
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different ethnicity. Indeed engraved my honourable friend for making the point. And the point I wish to make the House is
point I wish to make the House is that all defendants should be treated equally. And it shouldn't be
treated equally. And it shouldn't be a matter of whether they are a member or not often ethnic or
member or not often ethnic or religious minority. Now the council did not withdraw this guidance on
did not withdraw this guidance on principle.
It didn't acknowledge its error. It was forced to backtrack
only after public and political pressure. Largely from my right
honourable friend the shadow Justice Secretary. Even then the council
continued to defend the policy's rationale in private communications to the judiciary. Now that's not
to the judiciary. Now that's not
accountability, that is a ratio, and that's precisely why amendment 2 are so vital. We cannot allow this to
happen again. And Parliament must
have something to say when guidance threatens the equality of our
system.
Amendment for equally addresses the content of sentencing
guidance itself. This amendment would make it illegal for sentencing decisions to consider a defendants group identity, particularly in relation to historical
discrimination that has no bearing
on their individual case. Current bail guidance from Ministry of Justice already advises courts to consider the trauma suffered by
individuals whose relatives experienced racism or cultural
discrimination. It even refers to
important historical events and their supposed differential impact on specific ethnic or cultural groups. That approach undermines the
principle that people should be judged as individuals, not as
members of a group.
Amendment for
withdraw a clear legal line. Mitigating factors in sentencing must relate directly to an individual's actions and
individual's actions and
circumstances. Inherited identity or injustices not experienced by a particular convicted criminal should
not be relevant to the sentence
passed by the court. Race, religion or cultural background should not determine whether someone is sent to prison. And it should not determine
whether someone should benefit or
not from a presentence report. The Lord Chancellor has argued that the
current bill allows her to move it pays to reduce the worst aspects of
15:14
Rt Hon Diane Abbott MP (Hackney North and Stoke Newington, Labour)
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the Sentencing Council's abuse. This is not just about moving fast, is also about ensuring we never face the situation again. These
the situation again. These amendments are essential if we are serious about protecting the most
serious about protecting the most basic principle of a free society, equality before the law. Without
them, the bill addresses the symptoms but not the cause. Swear
symptoms but not the cause. Swear urge the House to support amendments three and four and to reaffirm our commitment to equality before the
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law. Diane Abbott.
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I entirely agree with members
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I entirely agree with members that are making the case that we should all be equal before the law. The problem is that the statistics,
The problem is that the statistics, the figures show that that is not the case. And it's not been the case
the case. And it's not been the case for decades. If you look at the
figures for the numbers of people in prison, black people make up 12% of
prison, black people make up 12% of
the prison population and yet we only make up 4% of the general population.
That tends to point to
population. That tends to point to
the concern that we are not being treated in the whole custodial
criminal system, that we are not equal before the law. I can remember years ago before perhaps some
members were in the House, you couldn't say anything about
institutional racism in the police force. And how black people are treated by the police. It took
Stephen Lawrence and the Macpherson enquiry to get people, politicians
and people that speak for the state to even acknowledge there was such
an issue as institutional racism.
In
an issue as institutional racism. In
On the question of the debate we
have had, my concern is that for short-term political advantage, we are putting forward a hurried bill
which carries the risk of undermining the Sentencing Council
and undermining the Judiciary and I don't believe that it is in the
interests of our legal system. I
would remind the House that these
guidelines were put up for a consultation. There were 100 and
respondents and only four made any reference to the guidelines for
minorities which is upsetting for members on both sides of the House.
Since then, 20 organisations, including the Centre for Justice,
Amnesty International and more have written to the Lord Chancellor
saying that the consequences of pitching the guidelines could be
pitching the guidelines could be
dire. Amongst other things, these guidelines could affect pregnant women and the parents of young children and I repeat the guidelines
are not dictating the sentence but
saying that there are instances
saying that there are instances
where the maximum is in play.
My view is that what is problematic
about this debate and this legislation is that it has been
framed as if to fuel conflict is
between politics and the role of the criminal justice system. I would
saying that the real issue, and I do
not know if this view is shared, but I would say the real issue is how seriously this House and ministers
in particular are prepared to take
the proven history of racial discrimination in the criminal
justice system and not just pay lip service but do something about it.
They are scarcely young radicals. They are a group of very senior
judges. They know, as anyone in
contact with the criminal justice system knows, that there is an issue with institutional racism in the
courts and in the mildest possible way they will try to make a suggestion in the guidelines about
something which might help to make sure everybody is treated the same
sure everybody is treated the same
and it is because they -- I said at the beginning that everybody is not treated the same and people outside
the chamber will not understand how so many members including so many ministers are trying to claim that
we are all treated the same, I think if we want to halt the criminal
justice system up to the light and
sure people that is a house we are
concerned to make sure that the system is fair and seemed to be fair then my view is that we should
then my view is that we should accept the guidelines that have been
accept the guidelines that have been put forward by the Sentencing Council.
Thank you.
15:19
Siân Berry MP (Brighton Pavilion, Green Party)
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Can I start by associating myself with everything the honourable
member has just said. I genuinely
believe the bill is undermining efforts to make equality a reality.
It flies in the face of expertise
and the painstaking work of the Sentencing Council. I think it is a
change in -- strange and populist bill and it could have made the justice system more fair not less
and I want to start with objections
to this by commenting on the process and we have a single-page bill that, in specificity and intent, brings to
my mind the way which the current President of the USA is making use
of executive orders to interfere in independent decision-making going on
by other bodies and this is a microbial and it micromanage is and
I worry what else we might see if such an example is set today.
At the
second reading, the Shadow Justice Secretary was not shy of telling us
about the next targets and the honourable member for Hammersmith
and Chiswick outlined other guidelines which might be immediately effective if we pass the bill today. My second objection is
about the substance of the bill, primarily Class 1. I can't believe ministers and shadow ministers are
not aware that achieving fair and equal outcomes does not mean treating everyone the same. That principle is so fundamental that I
think I learned it through the round window.
I cannot believe they are
unaware that systemic racism and unconscious bias are real things that affect people at every stage of
the system still in the UK in 2025
or that the good practice must mitigate against this are it will
compounded. I don't believe the government thinks the findings of
government thinks the findings of
the independent lab -- Lammy Review
are untrue or did not rule on this against legislation against
prejudice but yet here we are being asked about these principles from being part of a dependent judicial guidelines.
I give way.
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My concern is and I think this
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My concern is and I think this Opera House's concern is that Gayton says it is normally necessary and it
says it is normally necessary and it
says it is normally necessary and it picked out a minority and entrenches racism back into the system which is the very aim they do not want to see
the very aim they do not want to see and that is the fundamental argument the government and the state of the
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the government and the state of the House are putting forward. We do not want to see this get worse. This is... Of course.
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Just in response to the point that has been made, these guidelines
that has been made, these guidelines did not pick out race and ethnicity. In fact, they listed a number of
circumstances in which a pre- sentence report might be considered
sentence report might be considered appropriate. Someone on the first custodial sentence, under 25, a
custodial sentence, under 25, a
women, pregnant, primary care of relative, transgender, may have
addiction issues. Far from the council picking out race, it was one in a long list of circumstances that
the Sentencing Council was suggesting the pre-sentencing report
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might be appropriate for. Thank you. To return to the
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Thank you. To return to the question, it is difficult for some to realise what has gone on the definition of normal has slipped
definition of normal has slipped away from the mill, but white, the Christian, the majority, to shine a
light on people who might have experienced discrimination and that is a point of the guidelines and that is why we have put together this which mitigates against these
very great problems which have been outlined and that we know about very
well.
In contrast to this rushed
bill, the process that led to the now-suspended new Sentencing Council
guidelines was excellent and was consulted upon widely. The justice committee looked at it and it was given the green light by another
Conservative government of which the shadow justice minister was a member and I know that a small change was made by the same document
improbabilities in principles enshrined. There was basically consensus that more use pre- sentencing report should be made for
people suffering from systemic injustices and the particular groups might be in need of time and that
judges should be encouraged to ask for them in what circumstances for
these groups.
I wanted to also talk
Which, by the delay which has happened as a result of suspending the guidelines coming forward from
the bill, I don't know pain we will get the guidelines. I think there will be more harm to people of a particular group than what I could
about a lot and that is women, families, children who were all a
more specific focus of the guidelines and I've worked for us all long on problems and injustices facing women in the system and I'm
concerned any delay to log the long overdue changes to make this easier
overdue changes to make this easier
for these groups will have serious consequences for too many people with these characteristics or circumstances, however we define it,
but also on by the society.
I would ask the ministers to tell us about the impact of the delay on women,
families, pregnant people, and the other groups named and when we will get guidelines that include them and
how many people will be harmed in the meantime because this delay has
already taken some weeks. Some members of the House will be
familiar with the seminal report about women the particular vulnerabilities in the criminal
justice system and incidentally this document reminds us that the quality does not mean treating everyone the
same in the introduction.
The
guidelines from the sentencing
Council to help plug a gap which remains as a consequence of the recommendations in the report at the Sentencing Council rightly points to deeply concerning evidence of this
problem. I'm aware of difficulties judges have had justifying delays
and adjournments to get pre-sentence reports when the old guidance pushed
for reporting on the same day from the service and cautioned against
the service and cautioned against
this. Will this delay be until 2037, 20 years later, until the all guidelines are removed.
How many women might be harmed in the
women might be harmed in the
meantime? As far as I can see, the shadow justice secretary has scored
a major win today from seizing the issue and starting a culture war
against another minority and we found that about these principles
for a long time and instead of allowing the guidelines to be trialled with concerns being
addressed calmly, instead they have
good this Executive Order-style bill before us for the third reading and there was not time to point this
out.
I am sorry but I believe that this bill represents nothing less
than a rushed and extraordinary capitulation by the government to hydrate propaganda and that people are suffering injustice as a result.
It is profoundly worrying to see the government led to sitting in this area to micromanage justice in ways that are led by dog whistles,
roaming slogans, disingenuous
Slogans. I hope members will join me
Slogans. I hope members will join me in voting against the bill and show respect for the independence of judges, magistrates on this matter.
It is vital to do something today to stand up for evidence I can let policy, judicial independence, and
policy, judicial independence, and equality before the law. equality before the law.
15:29
Ayoub Khan MP (Birmingham Perry Barr, Independent)
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Thank you. I would like to draw the attention of members to my
register of interest. I am a member
of the bar. I would like to allay my comments made by the Mother of the
House, the honourable member for
Brighton Pavilion. This bill and the amendments, in reality, do not
tackle the two-tier justice in this country. In fact, they risk
entrenching it. The justice system is founded on the principle we all claim to uphold, fairness and
equality before the law.
And yet today we are being asked to support legislation that fundamentally undermines that principle. Let me be
absolutely clear, this is not a
matter of opinion. Lord Justice
William Davies, the Chair of the Sentencing Council, has written candidly on the matter and stated,
for example, defendants for minority
ethnic backgrounds are statistically more likely to receive harsher
sentences than white counterparts for a similar offence. That is not the opinion of politicians or
pressure groups, that is a warning from within the senior judiciary itself.
And yet this bill ignores
itself. And yet this bill ignores
that reality. Is still, it undermines -- worse still, it
undermines the tools created to protect, the pre-sentencing report. Let's remind ourselves what that is
It is not the sentence itself. Sentencing decisions are rightly
governed by separate judicial guidance, based on culpability, hard
calls, and established sentencing ranges. Those guidelines remain in
place. What the pre-sentence reports
does is help the court understand the background and circumstances of
the offender.
Information which is needed to establish effective
pathways to rehabilitation. Particularly when they have had issues such as mental health challenges, learning difficulties,
or lifelong trauma. The current guidelines for pre-sentence reports
were very carefully provided with the input of not just senior judges but also leading academics. And
practitioners. Experts in criminal
justice, you understand complexities and systemic disadvantages many
face. In this house, we routinely rely on expert testimony to shape
policy. Whether it is the NHS,
Education, or the environment, and rightly so.
But in this case, we are
doing the precise opposite. Rejecting expert opinion, dismissing
data, and ignoring lived experiences. Let me offer an
analogy, parallel that speaks to health disparities. According to
Public Health England and an association, black African and Caribbean men over the age of 55 are
almost twice as likely to suffer a stroke compared to white men of the
same age. This isn't speculation, to the clinical fact. If the NHS were
to implement a targeted program to
deliver early stroke prevention for this group not a single person in the chamber would call it a two tier system.
We recorded evidence-based
care, we would call it a fair and proportionate response to known
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disparity. So why when it comes to justice are we so afraid to apply the same logic? From a medical perspective that
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From a medical perspective that would be a genetic predisposition to that full stop is he seriously suggesting when it comes to this case that someone genetically would
case that someone genetically would find themselves in the law merely
find themselves in the law merely because they are a black person? The comparison he has made it exactly that from a medical standpoint was I don't think you really would suggest
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don't think you really would suggest that. I certainly would be against that position. The honourable member makes his
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The honourable member makes his point. As a criminal code to who
has, a criminal practitioner who has
been to court over the years, I have seen sentencing that in my view was
not fair. So these are lived experiences from certain communities
which is just as important as other minorities from from whatever background they have. It is important because ultimately who
have we got that has decided that this is an important feature that
needs to be counted within the sentencing guidelines? This is something that went through all the
consultation was to and people had seen this, people agreed to this and
did not raise a concern back then.
So why now? Addressing inequality is
not the same as creating inequality. It is in fact the only way to ensure
real equality. To ensure justice is not just blind in theory but fair in
practice. I know some will argue
that we need to understand the root causes of disparity, and they are right. That work is essential. But
while that longer term work is ongoing, we must act in the present. We must allow the experts to do
their jobs and supports the guidance that they, not we, have developed
through years of experience, research, and consultation.
Madame
Chair, this bill is not just misguided, it is regressive. I cannot and will not support
legislation that sidelined expert
insight, ignores data, and compromises the principles of fairness that we all claim to defend in the name of political
convenience. This must not only be
done but it must be seen to be done. And right now, the communities that faced this disparity were no longer
be concerned with this government's approach.
15:35
Dan Tomlinson MP (Chipping Barnet, Labour)
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Thank you, Mr Speaker. Chair.
First of all I want to acknowledge that the question of disparities in outcomes in our judicial system is a
real issue and one that merits serious attention. I recognise the
work of the Lammy Review of 2017 as well as the provisions of the
Ministry of Justice report in 2020 tackling racial disparity in the Criminal Justice Bill. It found disparities in how people from
minority ethnic groups are treated in the judicial system. It is
important that these issues to need to be given the focus that they merit.
However, I'm glad that this
bill has passed its second reading, and that we are progressing through the stages of the bill today. I am
firmly of the view it is not for the Sentencing Council to make political
decisions, policy decisions, on this matter. For those are the domain of
politicians, and must remain so. Government should be able to make political decisions and implement
them, and the ballot box is the right place for us to be held to account. What I find refreshing
about the continued passage of this bill today is that we are showing that politicians don't have to be
jelly like in the face of blockages to their desire to make good decisions.
About the same time, I
support the unamended passage of this bill because I think it finds a way to thread the needle with a
targeted intervention, the amendment
from the shadow Secretary of State for justice I think goes too far and would undermine the independence of the Sentencing Council.
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My honourable friend has referred
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My honourable friend has referred to blockages. How can he describe members of this house, people in the community, who are trying to stand
community, who are trying to stand up for a fair and just terminal justice system is blockages?
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justice system is blockages? I thank you for your intervention. I do not think that
intervention. I do not think that anyone in this house is a blockage, far from it. The point I am making
here is that I believe that this house should be the place where political decisions are made, and
politicians should be the people who decide the important things that
matter to people in this country. It is my view that the Sentencing Council is an important body, but
crucially, it is not a political one.
And I think that if these guidelines would have gone through,
it would have undermined the important principle of the equality
before the law. Of course that is a political decision, there are differences across and within different sides of this house, but
that is for us to contest here in
this place. I'm glad that this government is making sure that we can make progress on the things that we believe need to be pushed forward
for the British people. I hope that the bill will pass unamended today.
Because the precise changes proposed
allow for sentencing guidance cannot
allow for sentencing guidance cannot
be changed in a way that undermines equality before the law. I don't the amendments proposed by the opposition unnecessary, I think they
take things too far. With this and with much else besides, it is time for us to show that moderate politics, the politics of this
government, does not have to be like soup, weak and watery, and a possible to hold onto. Instead it
can be a politics of action and delivery.
So I welcome the passage
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of this bill, the continued passage of this bill, and urge members to vote for it today. I now call the Liberal Democrat
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spokesperson. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I made Liberal Democrat position on
made Liberal Democrat position on this very short bill on this issue more widely abundantly clear in the
more widely abundantly clear in the last debate that we had on this matter. We believe in equality before the law. We believe in the
before the law. We believe in the rule of law, and we believe that no one is above the law. That is why we
one is above the law.
That is why we believe the matter of pre-sentence reports that anyone facing the prospect of a custodial sentence
should be the subject of a pre- sentence report. We believe the state has this duty before
dispensing its power to deprive someone of their liberty. There is
15:40
Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)
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no world in which judges and magistrates have more information about an offender and their
about an offender and their circumstances, whoever they are,
it's a bad thing. That is why it is an injustice that the use of pre- sentence report has fallen from 160,000 in 2015 to just 90,000 x 20
160,000 in 2015 to just 90,000 x 20 23. A cut of 42%. This has left judges and magistrates with fewer
judges and magistrates with fewer resources and insights than ever to
go about their work.
Less informed sentencing means less satisfactory
sentencing outcomes. It means more reoffending, it means more victims, it means more turmoil, and that is
unacceptable. That is not justice. This is a product of underinvestment in our probation service which
compiles the reports, which was gutted under the Conservative
government. I welcome therefore that the Minister has agreed with me in his closing speech at second reading
that this debate should be about how we move to the universality of pre- sentence reports and not about
ration.
I will come to that new
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clause one shortly. I am grateful to my noble Friend for Divin way. He will be aware that
for Divin way. He will be aware that any sentencing magistrate or judge
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can request a pre-sentence report, so to use the word rationing I would say is inappropriate. I thank remember Foyth intervention. I don't know whether
intervention. I don't know whether he has read the Sentencing Council's
he has read the Sentencing Council's summary of the responses to the draft guidance that was in consultation under the Conservative
consultation under the Conservative government? But what was paraphrased from magistrates and judges is that
they felt that driving a universality of pre-sentence reports
would be challenging in light of the limited resource the service has,
and in light of the court backlogs that exist.
I would suggest that he consult that document to see those
faces that have been used by those legal professionals.
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I'm grateful. How much would that
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I'm grateful. How much would that cost, universality. The Lib Dems
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Collated how much it would cost? As the honourable men they just intervened is making his point, that these reports should exist come what
these reports should exist come what may, this cash should be ring fenced. It should be earmarked for
fenced. It should be earmarked for the use of judges and magistrates to request. Both members cannot have it
request. Both members cannot have it both ways. What we also know is that
if we best tailor a sentence to whether it will best result in somebody reoffending or not, we best
match the sentence to an offender,
we can spend to save.
If we can reduce reoffending by ensuring that
people get the appropriate sentence, keeping people out of our prisons that are crumbling, and that don't
need to be there because they have not offended or reoffended in the
first place. We can spend to save. But I regret this issue has become a political football. And one that is
sowing seeds of division. Plainly
and simply, this is about the Shadow Justice Secretary attempting to hijack our criminal justice system
for his own political ends.
So desperate is he to school little points that he uses his platform in this house to undermine judges, to
undermine judges by name in the full knowledge that they cannot respond.
And in the full knowledge that there is a formal process by which
judicial complaints can be investigated and addressed. So desperate are they to score
political points that they paint judges as activist villains, working to undermine public confidence, just
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because he does not agree. I would expect him to at least acknowledge that the reference to
acknowledge that the reference to judges in their capacity as members of the Sentencing Council not as judges hearing the educators was not
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judges hearing the educators was not that is an important distinction to make. I would refer the honourable member to comments that the Shadow
member to comments that the Shadow Justice Secretary made I think at the last justice questions that he
the last justice questions that he was not in attendance for. Where the Shadow Justice Secretary named a
Shadow Justice Secretary named a specific judge made a critique of them, a complete of them outside the
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formal process. I thank him for giving way.
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I thank him for giving way. Judges have been vilified, as have other members that sit on that Sentencing Council, by members of
Sentencing Council, by members of this house. Does the honourable member agree with me, if there is to
member agree with me, if there is to be any vilification, it is the members that sit, which formed the
members that sit, which formed the previous government, that had the cultural attention given to them and
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agreed it? I thank the member for his intervention. I don't agree that
vilification is the right approach from any side of this argument. This
debate should be conducted with respect and with good courtesy. But
I feel that that was missing from some of the comments that I referred
to in what I just suggested. But absolutely, there must be accountability. Indeed the last
government was held accountable in huge respect at the last general election where they suffered the
election where they suffered the
So desperate thirdly is the shadow justice secretary to rise to the top
of our democracy that he is prepared in the ways I have described to
undermine our democracy itself.
And turning to the specifics of this
bill, it has been referred to already by other honourable members,
but this bill and its amendments are rushed, knee-jerk, and not the way to make policy about people's
liberty, nor our constitution. As I have said before, why not negotiate
with the sentencing Council now, the immediate emergency has subsided.
Based on my engagement with MoJ
ministers and workers, the question hasn't been answered as to how they
would implement this.
Why not wait for the review to report and ensure
that this issue is explored comprehensively and ensure that
wider consultation takes place, and as I have said before, why not address what is already a two-tiered
justice system as it has been
referred to by some members behind me and the mother of the house where, for example, people from
ethnic minority background are more likely to serve longer sentences for
the same crimes as people who are not from ethnic minority backgrounds.
It is disappointing
that there is no provision in this bill to look at this. And if the government does insist on passing
this bill, we urge the government to embrace our calls for an independent review of presentence reports to be
conducted within two years as per new clause 1.
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I hope the member was listening to my speech when I talked about the
to my speech when I talked about the harm may be caused from the delay in bringing an excellent parts of the
bringing an excellent parts of the new guidelines that might help women and families. Are the Lib Dems asking for a delay or would they
asking for a delay or would they like to support bringing in the parts of the guidance that are
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parts of the guidance that are agreed as soon as possible? As I've said, one of the problems
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As I've said, one of the problems with the proposals as consultation has been minimal. These come from a rushed place of responding to a
culture war. We are making decisions
here about people's liberties, and we don't want to respond in a knee-
jerk way, what I absolutely can say and what I have discussed with
and what I have discussed with
members of this House is that the provision around victims of domestic violence, modern slavery et cetera,
their circumstances should be considered, and as I have looked at,
presentence reports, we should lean towards the presumption of universe
ala T rather than anything else, so
those groups can access a presentence report on those
individuals.
Not only because we
have grade impacts of those changes but because we remain steadfastly committed to evidence taste
policymakers. Against the back of cynical culture wars and leadership
manoeuvres, it is more important than ever for the government to assess the outcomes of this policy, assessment based on statistics, data
and evidence as opposed to dogma and
ideology. To conclude, we must not dance to the tune of the populists or the culture war fanatics, nor
undermine our legal institutions. As such, our position has not changed since last time and we will act
accordingly.
We will defend our judicial system and its
independence, but we reject short-
term reforms that failed to address
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the disproportionate nature at play. I rise to speak for amendments
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I rise to speak for amendments three and four on my name in the name the Shadow Secretary of State
for Justice and colleagues. From MPs and across the house of already made clear, the draft guidelines produced
clear, the draft guidelines produced by the council will have led to an unacceptable 22 justice system. One where defendants were treated
where defendants were treated different in not based on their crimes but based on cultural or religious identity. The record will
religious identity.
The record will show for several hours to 2 justice did exist because this is so
shambolic lean managed that the guidance came into effect ahead of its withdrawal formally. That is not justice but a betrayal of the law,
and it would have happen from the
Lord Chancellor but for the intervention of these opposition benches and in particular, the shadow Secretary of State for
Justice. This bill is necessary but not sufficient. It said of acting
decisively to restore public confidence after the Labour government has been dragged to act at all, it now brings forward half
measure, Omega response that full short of what it should do.
That is where we have table to important
amendments. First, Amendment three. This would ensure that sentencing guidelines concerning presentence
reports cannot simply be issued by the sentencing Council without oversight. They would require the
Secretary of State for Coming into force. Why is that necessary? Because the sentencing Council has
proven itself not just in initial measures proposed but in its attitude in response to public scrutiny unable to sustain public
15:52
Dr Kieran Mullan MP (Bexhill and Battle, Conservative)
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confidence in its work in this area. It is one thing for a public body to seek to exercise independence on a day-to-day basis. It is something
day-to-day basis. It is something else when a public body chooses not to exercise good judgement to make
use of that independence to act with restraint in the face of widespread government opposition, Parliamentary
government opposition, Parliamentary and public concern. Whilst it can have their merits, the sentencing
Council brought to life with potential pitfalls of unelected quangos that are deaf to the concerns of the people who pay their
concerns of the people who pay their wages and the politicians who represent those people.
While this whole affair has no doubt been a humiliating one for the Lord
Chancellor and the government, the damage to public confidence is just as great. Despite what the Lib Dems
spoke person has said in his remarks
earlier in the second reading, it did not agree to pause in fermentation of the guidelines to allow for a period of reflection. It
refused to do so and he has misunderstood the sequence of events. He only paused because
otherwise we would have entered into a constitutionally unsustainable situation where people being sentenced with guidelines being
legislated against in Parliament for emergency legislation.
That caused
us to dedicate a lack of judgement, so we must act more broadly to constrain the sentencing Council
pending any wholesale changes that may be forthcoming. That is why the
shadow Secretary of State brought forward a bill that would have taken a necessary step to return accountability of the body through
the Lord Chancellor whilst wholesale reform could be undertaken. Labour chose to oppose that bill. Today, it
is out of scope for us to seek a wide amendment and we are restricted to restore accountability in this
field.
Where we draft reports, they must be proposed by the Secretary of State before they come into force as
guidelines. There is a basic safeguard of accountability ensuring
ministerial oversight and sensitive matters of sentencing. Without that amendment, history can repeat itself. The same counsel will bring
forward ideological frameworks
before the damage is done. These guidelines gone unchallenged, we would have tilted sentencing on
identity politics undermining public confidence in entire systems. Our amendment would create safeguarding ensuring that no future guidelines
would pass accountability.
I would encourage ministers who want to see
accountability restored across the
work of the sentencing Council to support the amendment today. To do otherwise will make clear that they
are unwilling to follow through on their concerns with action. Our second amendment would make clear that sentencing guidelines must not include consideration of defendant
status as part of the group that has experienced intergenerational
trauma. Why is this necessary? Because it would be deeply wrong to allow collective historical grievances to influence the
sentencing of an individual today.
This area is the latest frontier in
politics when the public in all sorts of domains is being told what should be given disproportionate focus that what matters more than
what is happening today in a whole variety of challenges facing people of all creeds and colours is in fact
the past. Sentencing must focus on actions, culpability and the direct personal circumstances of the defendant before the court, not on sweeping assumptions based on
historical events. We are not aping this bill to legislate across the workings of the common justice
system as much as we might like to.
The events of the last few months have shown that what is happened with these guidelines is not a one-
off. There is a systemic attempt to
put things into training materials. If we do not confront it now, it will embed itself deeper and deeper
into the foundations of our system. It is fundamental to the rule of law that justice looks to the individual
and not to the group. It is fundamental that we deal with evidence and not ideology. Our amendments are attempting to strengthen this bill to make sure it
is not just a reactive measure but in this area must be blind and must
be seen to be blind.
The public expects justice to be equal and not
preferential. Our amendments will go further in helping to secure this.
We are here today because the Lord Chancellor was not paying attention and was then humiliated by the
recalcitrant leadership of an unelected body turning their face against Parliamentary and public concern. They should have acted decisively, immediately, and we
provided an opportunity for them to do so and they failed to take it. Even now, we are faced with a bill
that doesn't do the full job.
Our amendments are closing the gap between what the Lord Chancellor is
offering and what is necessary. Decisiveness in place of timidity. And I urge the whole house on the
government to support them. I call the Minister.
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It is a pleasure to serve with you. I would like to thank the
you. I would like to thank the honourable and right honourable members present here today for the points they have raised and the
amendments which have been discussed which I will respond to intern. First I will speak briefly to each
First I will speak briefly to each clause of the bell and remind us of why we are here debating this bill. In the last Parliament sentencing
In the last Parliament sentencing Council talked about a guideline which was due to come into effect on
1 April this year.
The reversed guideline contains additional guidelines on when courts should
request sentencing reports. It will
normally be considered from a minority. Nor will it be considered
to replace important, which the
government very much welcomed. This government notes that presentencing
court is necessary. This covenant agrees that disparities exist in the coming of justice system, however,
the reason for this is unclear and this is a matter for government accountable to Parliament and to the
ballot box to address.
Which members
have noted during this debate. In effect, the revised guideline could have left judges deciding whether to
request a presentence report based on an offender's faith of the colour of their skin. The Lord Chancellor
has been clear that this would be unacceptable as it risks differential treatment. Singling out
one group over another undermines the idea that we all stand equal
before the law. A principle that has been in the foundations of our justice system for centuries, and that is why she acted immediately
and quickly.
By presenting the sentencing Council making guidance
on presentence reports with reference to personal characteristics, this helps ensure
equality before the law. Clause 1 amends section 120 of the coroners and Justice act 2009. It provides that sentencing guidelines may not
include provision framed by reference to different personal characteristics including race,
religion or belief or cultural background. Therefore, any existing guidelines that make reference to different personal characteristics
will cease to have effect and the
sentence counsel is prevented from making such provisions in guidelines in the future.
The changes made by this clause prevent the sentencing
Council making policy about when presentence reports should be
obtained but risks differential treatment before, which could undermine public confidence in the criminal justice system. The
15:59
Sir Nicholas Dakin MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Scunthorpe, Labour)
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criminal justice system. The
sentencing code is clear that court should obtain presentence reports and lessen the circumstances of the case it is unnecessary. This clause
case it is unnecessary. This clause does not affect the independent judiciary's ability to make decisions based on the personal characteristics of an individual
characteristics of an individual offender or determined where presentence reports are necessary or desirable. Nor does it stop the
desirable. Nor does it stop the sentencing Council from advising in general terms the presentence
general terms the presentence reports are sought in cases where the court would benefit from an assessment of an offender's personal
circumstance.
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Presentence reports are really important in considering punishments
important in considering punishments that can address offending behaviour and help reduce the likelihood of reoffending but very often,
reoffending but very often, probation is stretched so thin that officers don't have time to complete
officers don't have time to complete them. So, what is the Minister doing
them. So, what is the Minister doing to ensure that wearer presentencing report is required, probation has the capacity to do that important work?
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work? She echoes much of what the
spokesperson for the Lib Dems picked up earlier. Probation is a very significant part of the landscape
and that is why we are on boarding 1300 more probation officers over
The chair of the select committee
raised issues about the impact of these guidelines on existing
guidelines. We expect there will be other guidelines will be affected by the bill. And these are offence
specific guidelines relating to mitigating and aggravating factors which set out guidance about pre- sentence reports for specific
cohorts.
We will continue working with the Sentencing Council on the
implementation of the bill. We have had constructive discussions and will continue to do so. As he
referenced, the Bills Explanatory Notes point out that it does not change existing precedent when the
courts have determined that pre- sentence reports are necessary or
desirable, in cases such as Thomson, the Court of Appeal recently emphasised their important and
sentencing pregnant women or women who have recently given birth. When
the court referenced the value of pre-sentence reports for young defendants or in another case where
the defendant was a victim of modern slavery.
Instead the bill narrowly focuses on the issue at hand,
putting beyond doubt the principle that we all stand equal before the
law. Clause two is concerned with
details about how the bill will be enacted. The bill will apply only to England and Wales, and its measures
will come into force the day after
it passes. The bill may become the pre-sentencing port Acts 2025 once
elected. I would like to thank the right honourable Member from Kenilworth and Southam for tabling amendments and for the thoughtful
and compressive way in which he dealt with them.
I will deal with
them together. Amendments one and two replace the term "Personal characteristics" with demographic
cohorts, to describe the type of provision that pre-sentence reports
in sentencing guidelines that the bill will prohibit. The government has considered the proposed change
to the wording very carefully, I would like to take this opportunity to briefly explain the government's approach. The government's objective is to help ensure equality before
the law, so that offenders are treated according to their own
particular circumstances, and not by virtue of their membership of a
particular group.
To ensure the bill
includes provision framed by reference to any specific personal characteristics of an offender, we have used the term personal
characteristics. The bill sets out that personal characteristics
include race, religion, or belief, or cultural background. But this is not an exhaustive list. We accept
personal characteristics and personal circumstances have, over
the years, been interpreted in different court judgements. We are
clear it is intended to include a wider range of counter-attacks including sex, gender identity, physical disabilities, and pregnancy
status.
The right honourable Member has rightly noted that the term demographic cohort is used in the
Bills Explanatory Notes. But the use of the demographic cohort was not intended to, and I believe does not
narrow, the definition of personal characteristics, though I know that he believes it might do. Rather it is a different term used to describe
individuals who share certain
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personal characteristics. I'm grateful to him for giving way. The purposes of clarity, and I
way. The purposes of clarity, and I accept he is trying to give us clarity, can he help us with this.
clarity, can he help us with this. Is it the government's view that all personal characteristics can also be described as personal circumstances?
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described as personal circumstances? No. That is not the government's view. Personal characteristics is a
view. Personal characteristics is a term that is understood and applied in other contexts. Whereas demographic cohort is not. It is a
demographic cohort is not. It is a term that, on balance, the government feels is more precise,
and would ultimately need to be defined with reference to a group with shared personal
characteristics. It is therefore from the government's point of view, though I understand where the
honourable member is coming from, from the government's point of view, it does not add anything to the drafting of the current bill.
And it
risks causing further confusion. As he pointed out in his very helpful
contribution, there is a danger of getting into detailed semantics here
which probably does not help any of us.
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I'm not sure this is going to make it any better. I think what he is saying then, is that the question
is saying then, is that the question
is saying then, is that the question of the term demographic cohort is a subset of personal circumstances. Sorry, subset of personal
Sorry, subset of personal characteristics. But personal characteristics are not the same as
personal circumstances, I think that is what he is saying, is that right?
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is what he is saying, is that right? I think what I'm saying is we use the phrase demographic cohorts, we have to define what demographic cohorts means. Whereas personal
characteristics is a phrase that already has a level of definition. It is therefore one that is preferred by the government. If I
turn to the member for Hammersmith and Chiswick about the similar issue
that he raised. We carefully considered whether the bill could
and should be narrower than referring to personal characteristics, for example offender and being from a cultural
minority.
In the end we felt that was not helpful. As such, while I am
very grateful to the right honourable Member for suggesting alternative wording, the government remains of the view that, having
considered it very carefully, the term personal characteristics is the
most appropriate way of capturing the issues raised by the guideline.
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Can I clarify the point, for example in relation to pregnancy. It
example in relation to pregnancy. It is in the Explanatory Notes that it
is in the Explanatory Notes that it would be right for Thomson to be followed, and a sentencing report to
followed, and a sentencing report to be ordered. But he is correct for the Sentencing Council to make
the Sentencing Council to make recommendations along those lines, if we follow the passage of this
bill.
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As he says, it is right to follow Thomson in those circumstances. While I'm grateful to the right
While I'm grateful to the right honourable Member for exploring this issue on the Floor of the House, I
issue on the Floor of the House, I hope that he does not push the amendment to a vote. Moving on,
amendment to a vote. Moving on, amendment three tabled by the Official Opposition would require
Official Opposition would require the Sentencing Council to obtain the secretary of state's approval before
issuing any sentencing guidance about pre-sentence reports.
I reference the helpful words of the
right honourable Member when he said we should tread very carefully in this territory. And that the
separation of powers needs to be very much respected. So whilst
carefully considering the case for mandating the Sentencing Council
obtained the Secretary of State's approval, I'm not persuaded that this is appropriate at this particular time. As the Lord
Chancellor set out, this case has highlighted that there is potentially a democratic deficit here. That is why we are currently assessing Sentencing Council's wider
role and powers for developing sentencing guidelines and recent
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developments in guidelines. Can I gently suggest to the Minister if there is a risk of democratic deficit, surely the thing
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democratic deficit, surely the thing to do is to act now in the short- term and unpick it later if you feel is overreach? We certainly don't feel we have
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We certainly don't feel we have overreached. And we have acted in a
overreached. And we have acted in a timely way. As the debate is demonstrated there are issues of
details need to be properly explored. The Lord Chancellor has done the right thing in announcing a review of what, of looking at the
review of what, of looking at the thing in the proper time and that will take place. Given the special
role of the Sentencing Council and policy on constitutional issues involved, it is rightly take the time to consider whether more fundamental reform is needed
alongside considering wider recommendations that come out of the Independent Sentencing Review.
I'm
not convinced it would be proper to do with the issue now for this fast-track legislation. Nor am I convinced that legislating a
piecemeal way would be helpful.
Noting that the amendment just applies to sentencing guidelines about pre-sentence reports, and then a the other things you need to look
at. We are keeping all options on the table and willing to further legislate on this in a more competitive way if necessary. I
therefore urge the right honourable Member to withdraw his amendment.
Amendment four was, also tabled in
his name would prevent the Sentencing Council from framing sentencing guidelines about pre-
sentence reports with reference to groups that may have experienced trauma from historical racism or discrimination. Whilst we have carefully considered the case for
adding this restriction on the face of the bill, we are not persuaded that it is necessary. Within the bill we have taken a general
approach to preventing sentencing guidelines about pre-sentence reports from being framed by reference to any personal
characteristic of an offender.
The bill specifies that personal characteristics include race, religion, or cultural background.
But this is not an exhaustive list. More widely, I appreciate the right
honourable Member has taken a keen interest in wider guidance access
across business and probation that touched on different experiences, including that specified within the
text of the amendment. The government is clear of the need to ensure equality before the law, and
wider work is going on to review relevant policy and guidance. We
will update this when necessary.
I urge the right honourable Member to withdraw this amendment. I want to
turn to new clause 1. New clause 1
would require the Secretary of state to have an independent review into the restrictions the bill places on the Sentencing Council's ability
about pre-sentence reports which are framed by reference to offenders different personal characteristics.
I would like to thank the honourable men before Eastbourne for tabling this amendment. Thus we have carefully considered the case for
such a review, and I have course agree that it is important to carefully think through what the effects of the bill will be, I am
not persuaded that a review is necessary because the direct changes
made by the bill are limited in nature.
To recap, the bill helps protect equality before the law by
ensuring no offender receives differential treatment regarding
pre-sentence reports based on their personal characteristics. That reflects a fundamental principle
does not need to be reviewed. The bill does this by restricting the powers of the Sentencing Council to
issues of sentencing guidelines on
reports. It will prevent guidelines for example creating a presumption around whether a pre-sentencing
report should be obtained based on an offender's personal characteristics rather than all circumstances of the offender before the court.
For the avoidance of
doubt, this government supports the use of pre-sentence reports, and we have publicly committed to creating more capacity in the probation
service to ensure it is able to do fallible work including preparing
pre-sentence reports. We will also be very happy to continue to work
with your member going forward regarding disparities in the Criminal Justice Bill. And the use
of pre-sentence reports more generally. We fully support the
increased use of PSRs in our court system. PSRs include an assessment of the offender's behaviour and the
risk they pose and the recommendations for sentencing options stop it is a valuable tool,
as many members have said, in helping to ensure the sentences tailored to an individual offender
and their circumstances.
Equality before the law is a fundamental principle of our criminal justice system. It is the governments policy
and believe that this should be protected. I welcome again the contribution from the Mother of the
House supported by both the member for Brighton Pavilion and the member
for Birmingham Perry Barr. Two keep
our feet to the fire on tackling disproportionality. I can confirm again that this government takes very seriously tackling
disproportionality in the criminal
justice system. That is why the Lord Chancellor has commissioned a review of the data on disparities in the justice system, in order to better
understand the drivers of the problem.
I know that my right honourable friend does not need my encouragement to keep going on this
one, and so I look forward to her keeping us to account as we continue
to move forward. I should also be clear on what the bill does not do. To underscore its limited changes,
nothing in the bill restricts the courts, the pre-existing ability to
request pre-sentence reports. All the Sentencing Council from advising in general terms that a pre-sentence report should be sought where
further assessment of the offender's personal circumstances would be an official to the court.
The bill also
does not affect Court of Appeal case law about the types of cases where
pre-sentence reports are necessary or desirable. As we have covered previously for the there is a recent relevant case law covering
vulnerable defenders, pregnant women, and women who have recently
given birth, and young defenders. The bill will also not prevent
judges from requesting pre-sentence reports in cases where they ordinarily would, pleading in appropriate cases involving for
example pregnant women, as well as those involving young people, and I
welcome the comments from the member for Chipping Barnet on these issues.
With these considerations in mind,
the government does not consider the proposed review to be necessary, but
as the Lord Chancellor has set out, she is now carried out a review into a wider role and so I can reassure
the honourable Member that there
will be further opportunities to discuss issues surrounding the Sentencing Council in this house. I hope that he will therefore withdraw
the amendment, thank you.
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So Jeremy Wright to wind up. Thank you. I think gratitude to
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Thank you. I think gratitude to all those who have spoken, that we have got to a place where the Minister has told the House that
Minister has told the House that there is some territory which at the moment is being described as
moment is being described as personal characteristics, into which sentencing guidelines may not trust
sentencing guidelines may not trust us. That is not the same as specifically referring to someone's
specifically referring to someone's personal circumstances. It is a broader area.
Broader area then the question whether they are a member
of a particular demographic group. The recipe says the Minister, before this will complete his progress, as
he may want in, to clarify which territory specifically now
sentencing Council cannot construct guidelines about so we all
understand including the Sentencing Council, where we stand. But I'm grateful to him for the exhalation
he has been able to give today. And in consequence I'm content to
in consequence I'm content to
16:16
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The amendment by leave withdrawn. We now come to Amendment three We now come to Amendment 3 to clause 1
which has been convenient to be
selected for a separate decision. The question is that Amendment three
The question is that Amendment three
The The question The question is The question is as The question is as on The question is as on the
The question is as on the order
paper. Tellers for the eyes, Rebecca
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Order, order. The eyes to the right, 86. The
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nose to the left, 222. The eyes are 86, the nose were
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The eyes are 86, the nose were 222, so the nose have it, the nose
222, so the nose have it, the nose
We now come to Amendment four We now come to Amendment four We We now come to Amendment four We now come to Amendment 4 to clause 1
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which has been selected for a separate decision. I beg to move.
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I beg to move. The question is that Amendment
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The question is that Amendment for the maid. Division, clear the
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Is
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Is on Is on the Is on the order Is on the order paper.
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Is on the order paper. Tellers
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Lock Lock the Lock the doors.
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Order. Order. Order.
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Order. Order. The ayes to the right 88. The
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noes to the left 226. The ayes to the right 88. The noes to the left 226. The noes have
noes to the left 226. The noes have
noes to the left 226. The noes have it. The noes have it. Unlock. With the leave of the house, I support
the question clause is one two together. The question is that these clauses stand part of the bill. As
many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". The ayes
have it.
The ayes have it. Order.
Order. The question is that I do report the bill to the house. As
many are of that opinion say, "Aye".
And of the contrary, "No". The ayes
have it. The ayes have it. Order.
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Water, whip to report. I beg to report that the committee has gone through the bell
committee has gone through the bell and directed me to report the same without amendment.
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Minister to move third reading. Let me first take this
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Let me first take this opportunity to thank all members of this House who have spoken in support of this important bill. I am
support of this important bill. I am grateful for the support expressed at second reading as well as all the honourable and right honourable
honourable and right honourable members who have contributed to this afternoons committee proceedings. It is not yet a month since the sentencing guideline was set to come
into effect. Following up, the Lord Chancellor followed up concerns with
action as members from both sides of this house have acknowledged that the government not acted quickly to
introduce this bill, the guideline would have risks differential treatment before the law in this country.
I would like to put on the
sentencing Council and their chair for the constructive conversations
on this issue and for pausing the guideline while Parliament had its say as it is doing today. I would also like to thank officials who
also like to thank officials who
This This government This government strongly This government strongly supports the use of presentence reports which judges are required by law to obtain
except in circumstances where they consider such a report to be unnecessary. We also acknowledge that there are disparities within
the criminal justice system which must be addressed.
However, these are matters of policy and it is right for the government to seek a
policy response for these issues. That is why we bought this bill
issue today. I therefore commend
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this bill to the house. It is a pleasure to speak on
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It is a pleasure to speak on behalf of the opposition in the third reading debate following on from the committee of the whole
from the committee of the whole house government MPs rejected to strengthen this legislation. We want
strengthen this legislation. We want to tackle this challenge proper incomprehensible here and now. We now know there isn't one. In truth,
now know there isn't one. In truth, we knew this already. They have an opportunity weeks ago to restore democratic accountability to the sentencing Council with the shadow
sentencing Council with the shadow Secretary of State Justice Bill.
16:48
Sir Nicholas Dakin MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Scunthorpe, Labour)
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They rejected that opportunity and rejected even the more modest strengthen and available to them earlier today. This shouldn't be a
earlier today. This shouldn't be a surprise for the party opposite is a
lawyer not a leader, and steeped in the philosophy of securing political change through legal activism. The very sort of approach the Lord
very sort of approach the Lord Chancellor has been forced to bring in emergency legislation today to curtail. That is why the appetite
curtail. That is why the appetite for proper action is so limited because the legislation before the
16:48
Dr Kieran Mullan MP (Bexhill and Battle, Conservative)
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because the legislation before the house today is a figleaf to hide the
truth. We have to tackle judicial activism that he has long championed.
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Order. The shadow minister must be heard. They don't want to hear it. This
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They don't want to hear it. This issue has at its root cause the
appointment of an Atty Gen who was
steeped in activism, the prime minister himself practising a chamber that relished it and wholeheartedly supported to expand it case-by-case. Anyone interested
in treaties*this approach from someone much more qualified than I am, I would encourage you to listen
am, I would encourage you to listen to the reflections. His analysis between matters that should properly
be the domain of politics and matters for law could not be more pertinent as he says this.
The
advice is that we talk about law as it was a self-contained subject like
a lavatory subject, but law does not occupy a world of its own. It is part of a larger system of public
decision-making. The rest is politics, the politics of ministers
and political party of pressure groups and the wider electorate. He
goes on to say the courts have developed a broader contract of the law which greatly enlarges their own constitutional role. They have
claimed a wider supervisory authority over the other organs of the state.
They have inched their way towards the notion of
fundamental raw political decision- making and these things have
inevitably carried them into the realms of legislative and ministerial policy to adopt the dictum about war, law is now the
continuation of politics by other means. Be in no doubt that this
whole sorry episode has been an exquisite further example of this mentality. This time by the sentencing Council and its members
as part of the wider establishment. The Lord Chancellor has failed to act decisively today.
If she continues to refrain from taking
action, we will be here again and again with opposition making sure that each and every step of the way
that voters know whether some of these are the Labour Party and its
leader live. Not with the ordinary law-abiding citizens who expect
equal treatment under the law and the democratically elected politicians of this country deciding
on policy, but with activists and campaigning lawyers who want to wrestle control from them. The legislation from us today is barely
adequate.
We won't oppose it as it is better than nothing but at least
it tells the public everything they need to know about who sits on the
opposite benches and the mentality of the man leading them.
16:51
Division
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The question is that the bill now
be read in third time. Division,
The The question The question is The question is is The question is is on The question is is on the The question is is on the order
paper. The Tellers for the eyes,
Anna McMorrin. Tellers for the no,
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Order. Order. Order.
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Order. Order.
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The ayes to the right 214. The
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noes to the left three. The ayes to the right 214. The
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The ayes to the right 214. The noes to the left three. The ayes
noes to the left three. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Unlock. I
will give a few moments for people
17:03
Motion: Motion to approve the Draft Licensing Act 2003 (Victory in Europe Day Licensing Hours) Order 2025
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to sit down. Motion number three on
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licences and licensing. I called Mr to move the motion. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I
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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that the Licensing Act 2003 Victory in Europe Day licensing
2003 Victory in Europe Day licensing order 2025 which was laid in Parliament on 23 April, be approved.
Parliament on 23 April, be approved. Next week marks the 80th anniversary
17:03
Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)
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Next week marks the 80th anniversary of Victory in Europe Day. It was of course a hugely significant and
consequential moment in the history of our country. After more than five
long years, the first of which we stood alone, on 8 May 1945, Prime
Minister Churchill proclaimed to cheering crowds in Whitehall just a
few hundred yards from this chamber, "This is your victory. It is the
victory of the cause of freedom in every land. " With that 75th
anniversary commemorations involving public gatherings sadly cancelled in
2020 due to the COVID outbreak, the upcoming milestone is a precious
chance to pay tribute to that greatest generation, and hear the stories of those who lived through
the war.
At this point I wanted to make reference to my own father,
Eric Johnson, who served in the Royal Navy in the Second World War,
and my mother, Ruth Johnson, who worked in munitions factories. Many people will want to come together
with friends and family to mark the occasion, and raise a glass to those
who fought for our freedoms, soldiers, sailors, and airmen from the United Kingdom and across the
Commonwealth. As well as our allies in Europe. And also those who
contributed to the war effort at home.
Including civilians working in
the emergency services, transport, the home guard, the wardens. Those working in the factories and on the
land. And 23 members of this house
and 20 members of the other place gave their lives in World War II. I
know that Mr Speaker is working to mark this. We should celebrate the role of this place and our wartime
coalition, in saving democracy aeons our shores from what Winston
Churchill called the abyss of a new
dark age.
Merits of events will be held in many locations during the week of the anniversary. Including a
military procession from Whitehall to Buckingham Palace, street parties across the country on the bank
holiday, Evensong at Manchester Cathedral followed by celebrate
ringing of bells. A celebratory
picnic at Cardiff Castle. A living history event at Sterling Castle in Scotland. As series of commemorations at Belfast City All. The service at Westminster Abbey
which will serve as an act of shared remembrance and celebration of the
end of the war.
VE Day falls within
the annual Commonwealth War Graves Commission's war graves week. And the commission is marking the 80th
anniversary of VE Day with the
forevermore tour, a mobile expedition travelling UK sharing stories of those who died in World War II. The Commonwealth is also
holding a special VE Day concert on May 2 in the historic Coventry Cathedral which was rebuilt after being destroyed by bombing in 1940.
A concert will also take place at Horse Guards Parade to mark the end
of commemorations on 8 May.
As a member of Parliament who represents
Kingston upon Hull, a city which was routinely referred to anonymously in
the Second World War as the north-
east coastal town, despite bombing comparable to the East End of London, our celebrations in a hole
for VE Day will be accompanied by a
desire to see greater national
recognition of the effects of the blitz on my city than we have had over the course of the last 80
years. In whole we will have a
number of events.
We will show the celebrations that took place in the
city. And there will be a 1940s music singalong at Cottingham City
Hall. So promises to be a special atmosphere in many communities, and this order will allow people to
celebrate for longer should they so wish. Section 172 of the Licensing
Act 2003 allows the Secretary of State to make a licensing order to
allow licensed premises to open for specified extended hours on occasions of exceptional
international, national, or local
significance.
By way of background, past occasions where the then Home Secretary has exercised this power
to extend licensing have included, the King's coronation, Her late Majesty The Queen's platinum and
Diamond Jubilee celebrations. The Royal weddings in 2011, 2018, and
most recently, the semi-final and final of the men's UEFA European
championship last year. The government considers the 80th
anniversary of VE Day to be an occasion of national significance. And as such, worthy of the proposed
extension before the house today.
Turning to the practical details, this order makes provision to relax
licensing arrangements in England
and Wales but allow licensed premises to extend their opening hours on Thursday, 8 May for a
further two hours from 11 PM until 1 AM the following morning. A
truncated consultation was conducted with key stakeholders who were supportive of the extension. And we
take the view that this order will not bring about any significant crime and disorder due to the nature
of the events.
However, we recognise that there may be implications for police resource in, and we will continue to work with stakeholders to mitigate any concerns around the
impact. As well as enabling celebrations, the extension has the
added potential benefit of providing a welcome boost to the hospitality said. I hope that members on all
sides of the house will agree that this order represents an appropriate use of the powers conferred on the
Home Secretary by the Licensing Act 2003. To conclude, this extension
reflects our commitment to remembering what was a truly
momentous event, our finest hour.
To celebrate those who defended our country, liberated Europe, and
secured piece. With that, I commend this order to the house.
17:10
Harriet Cross MP (Gordon and Buchan, Conservative)
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The question is as on the Order Paper. Shadow Minister.
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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Hope it will be apparent that all members of the house strongly
support this motion, and certainly us on the bench agrees. We welcome
us on the bench agrees. We welcome the opportunity for pubs and other licensed venues across the country to stay open late to commemorate VE Day without incurring any costs to
Day without incurring any costs to extend their licences. As time
extend their licences. As time passes, and as direct memories of this momentous day grow older, it is critical that we continue to commemorate and remember the
commemorate and remember the experiences of those who sacrificed so much, and it's only cases, he gave everything for our nation and
for others freedom.
We must celebrate the fact that their sacrifice was not in vain but led to
a great achievement. Recognise the efforts and insurance that they
overcame immense struggle. I hope I speak for all members when I say that we are incredibly honoured to represent those who served in World
War II, and their family, friends, and loved ones who survived to this
day. VE Day is rightly a date for us all to share and celebration. As
Churchill said on 8 May 1945, "Dear friends, this is your hour.
This is not a victory of a party or of any
class, it is a victory for the Great British nation as a whole. It is only appropriate that we continue to
reflect the evergreen truth
celebrate VE Day as we should unify the country, proud of our history, of determination, and of sacrifice.
" The motion today to extend licensing our peers exceptionally
appropriate. Not only was a national holiday declared in Britain on 8 May 1945, but it is said that on that
morning, Churchill, with his focus very much on the very real
priorities, gained assurances from the Ministry of Food that there would be sufficient beer available
in the capital.
Meanwhile the board of trade announced that people could purchase red, white, and blue bunting without using national
bunting without using national
coupons. We share that same spirit today, by proving this motion. I hope it will allow people to fully commemorate is truly historic day
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memorably. I call Liberal Democrat spokesperson. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I
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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I speak on behalf of my party Lasse Bjorn everyone in supporting this
Bjorn everyone in supporting this order today. The order will of course provide community opportunities to celebrate in many different ways across the country, with street parties or private
with street parties or private gatherings or indeed going down the pub. People will want to mark the
pub. People will want to mark the occasion in their own way. And ultimately honour those who gave
such sacrifices towards our country.
For our democracy, for our freedom, and for our way of life, 80 years
ago, and should never be forgotten. It will also provide a boost to our
local hospitality industry. Many great pubs in my constituency, I will try and attempts to name them
all. We have the Railway Tavern, the
Hope, the Sun, the Racehorse, the Greyhounds, the Coaching Horses, the
Woodman, we have the Genes Head, the
Whispering Booth, the Staff, and the Dog House, and Jack and Jill.
And
others. I'm not going to go to all of them but I will try and go to
many of them. And finally I would like to remark on a personal thank
you for happening to occur on this day, the Prime Minister will be
particularly pleased to know that Tottenham are playing that night. And if they get victory in Europe of
their own it will be through to the Europa League final. I think many
Spurs fans will appreciate the opportunity to stay out longer that evening.
So thank you very much to the government for putting this
forward. It is lushly appropriate and in the national interest. And in my personal interest too.
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The question is as on the Order Paper. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary,
say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes
"No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Ways and means motion, minister to move.
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Moved formally. The question is as on the Order
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Paper. Shadow Minister. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker..
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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.. As an asset we will support measures which improve policing and ensure that those who commit crimes face
the full weight of the law. As such,
we will support this finance motion. There are a great number of things in the Crime and Policing Bill that
we agree with, indeed, as we have pointed out in a number of occasions, significant elements of the legislation effectively carried over from the Criminal Justice Bill
in the last Parliament. While there are areas that we have disagreements on, we must ensure that, following
the passage of this legislation, the police have the resources they need.
That said there are two elements that should be acknowledged. Firstly, given that this is a matter
of finance, the settlement for policing we have seen from the government is clearly causing challenges for police. We have
already seen the Met announced cuts to officer numbers. We are warned
that 1800 officers may be at risk. I'm concerned the number might be higher. Therefore the government
must ensure we do not see a decrease in officer numbers that many have been concerned about. It would
undermine measures in this bill.
And separately, on the matter of the bill itself, while it is not an
issue in today's vote, I would ask members of this House to carefully
consider proposals that were put in front of them in future. Clearly at report stage. I hope that members
will have the opportunity to vote on the sensible amendments, and indeed
on the side of the house we also believe they are firmly in the best
interest of the country. Rather than merely following the rooms of the
party I ask members to consider what is right and wrong bra country in law enforcement and victims.
When there have been decades of historical abuse, particularly in
the form of rate gangs, these must be investigated thoroughly leaving
no stone unturned. Therefore I hope this motion will not only cover what
is currently in the bill but also provide resources for a national statutory inquiry into rate gangs.
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I am grateful for the support that the shadow minister but I do
that the shadow minister but I do think it is worth just saying to the shadow minister but in terms of the financial settlement to police
forces this year, there is up to 19.6 billion going into policing and
19.6 billion going into policing and the Minister will be very aware of the additional funding that is going into support neighbourhood policing
17:17
Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)
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and to restore neighbourhood policing after the decimation that happened under the previous
Conservative government. And so, I do think, whilst the shadow minister
can make these points, this
government is committed to funding
policing onto our local areas, and I
do think that it is rather that the Minister has only joined the house,
but there are 14 years of history as to why we have found ourselves in the position where police forces are
in challenging circumstances with finances, but this government is committed to supporting policing and
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the financial settlement this year does exactly that. The question is on the order
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The question is on the order
17:18
Adjournment: Government support for people in the Occupied Palestinian Territories
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The question is on the order paper. I think the eyes have it. We now come to motion number five on
17:18
Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)
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the National Health Service. I beg to move.
17:18
Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)
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I beg to move. The question is is on the order
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paper. I think the eyes have it. I beg to move that the house do
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now adjourn. The question is that the house do now adjourn.
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now adjourn. Thank you. It is a great privilege to have secured this
privilege to have secured this adjournment debates on government support for the people in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Occupied Palestinian Territories. But I regret immensely the need to
But I regret immensely the need to do so. Like most of the world, I was horrified by the killing and
horrified by the killing and kidnapping of Israeli citizens by Hamas. I continue to support
Israel's right to self-defence in response to that attack.
And also, I
know that today or at least when the
sunsets will be Israel Independence Day, when many Israelis will be
celebrating their country. I am here to ask three principal questions of
to ask three principal questions of
As individuals and as a community to
support the people of Palestine, and thirdly, if the government believes
that there is nothing more we can do
to support the Palestinians, could the Minister please inform the house
so we can still inform our constituents.
I say three questions
but I want to tell my honourable friend that I have 12 questions and
I will be counting them as I ask them and I will be counting them as
she replies. So, this is a very important subject, and there is a
lot to cover. The north-east of England may seem far away from Gaza and the West Bank, and it may even
seem far away from London to some, but the consequences of Israel's
humanitarian blockade and use of
weapons of modern welfare against civilians plays out on family televisions and social media
platforms in the north-east.
As it should. My constituents watch as the
body of a five-year-old girl is pulled from beneath the wreckage of a car she was riding in with her
family, a car the Israeli defence attacked with the most powerful
weapons of modern warfare. My constituents watched a 20 day-year-
old baby in Gaza wrapped in a blanket by that baby is hysterical
relatives frozen to death in a
subtropical country, the fifth child death from hypothermia in Gaza in
six days last winter.
My constituents watched one by one of a
hundred Palestinian children killed or maimed every day in the 10 days
from the 21st to 31 March. I know this because constituents stopped me in the street in Newcastle in
Grainger market when I am buying my vegetables, on the west world when I am visiting local businesses,
playing bingo in Blakelaw, visiting cultural centres, supporting
community centres in Fulham,
knocking on gates in Lymington. They ask me what can we do to support the suffering we see? I know this
because the right to leave means that I request that we please
advocate for the people of Gaza in Parliament as they have the right to defend themselves.
They have the right to feel safe, to live in peace
and enjoy freedom and liberty without occupation or terrorism. And I quote, as a Jewish constituents of
yours, I am very concerned with the relative silence regarding Israel's
abandonment of this Gaza ceasefire agreement brokered by Egypt. It is
utterly deplorable that Israel is once again slaughtering Gazan
civilians. And I quote, what is the
government doing to help Palestinian people? We are witnessing the most
horrific of nightmares unfold, bombed by Israeli forces who try to
free being shot at.
Alistair means in North Gaza are living under a
suffocating siege. Children are
being bombed. In central Gaza, people are being burnt alive in tents that were made to protect
tents that were made to protect
them. The UK must act. And I quote,
a new UN report had reconstructive
violence like the killing of women, male D to knees, the destruction of an IVF clinic with its 4000 embryos
waging war on Palestinians ability
to reproduce genocidal acts.
The environment minister declared the only solution for the Gaza Strip is to empty it of Gazans. I could go on
to empty it of Gazans. I could go on
as it seems there are limitless examples of such acts. How can these actions so documented evidence and
confess to facilitated by weapons
and support continue. No one in UK politics or media circles can
plausibly state I did not know what was really happening. That is a
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quote from my constituent. I am grateful for my honourable
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I am grateful for my honourable friend for giving way. I felt that I had to stand up because my honour friends experiences are the same
friends experiences are the same experiences that I am having with my constituents in Wolverhampton west.
They are continuously asking me what are we doing to stop this bloodshed, the killing of women and children that is carrying on. Does my
that is carrying on. Does my honourable friend degree that the
honourable friend degree that the has to, point where our diplomacy, our negotiations are not having any
effect on Israel, and I have to say,
on the United States as well.
They are our allies, but for how long
will we continue to wait to get Israel to act to stop this bloodshed before we take some further action
that can have some affect in cutting out this bloodshed?
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I thank you for the intervention.
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I thank you for the intervention. The people of Wolverhampton west and Newcastle Central, and indeed,
Newcastle Central, and indeed, people across our country have a similar response to the horrific acts and suffering that they are
acts and suffering that they are seeing, and as I will set out as I proceed in my remarks, I do think
proceed in my remarks, I do think that my objective is to ask, indeed to demand what more we can do and
to demand what more we can do and will do to ensure that we see the
suffering coming to an end.
Because
the examples that I have read out their I just minute sample of what
my constituents right and say to me. I have had hundreds and hundreds and
hundreds of emails, letters, exchanges on the streets of
Newcastle. I want to emphasise also that whilst many of the constituents
who raise issues are Muslim or have a Muslim heritage, many more are not. Many Christians were
particularly appalled by the Israeli government's Palm Sunday attack on
the hospital in Gaza run by the Anglican diocese of Jerusalem as a
statement from the house supported by the Right Rev The Lord Bishop of
by the Right Rev The Lord Bishop of
Newcastle.
That is why I am here. To address and demand action in
relation to the horror and despair my constituents feel over the
consequences of the Israeli governments blockade, on humanitarian aid to Gaza, and the
Israel Defence Forces killing of Palestinian civilians and particularly children in Gaza and
the West Bank. My constituents simply do not believe that we as a
nation, as a people, as a leading
voice in the world community are helpless to affect the behaviour of
the government of Israel.
A nation
we have enjoyed friendly relations with and strong diplomatic ties with four decades, and nation that many
of us believe shared our values, our commitment to human rights and
democracy, our principal commitment
to racism. We are all aware of the
extremely and complex history of what is now the state of Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories
the Occupied Palestinian Territories
of the West Bank and Gaza. This is part of the British Empire and the
Holocaust.
I do not wish to try to re-tell that story but I think this
adjournment will go on longer than was anticipated. It will not be long
enough to fully do justice to that. Instead, I start from October 7,
2023. On that day, Hamas and other armed Palestinian groups based in Gaza launched their sickening attack
on Israel which killed over 1200
Israeli men, women, and children in horrific circumstances. Hamas and
its allies kidnapped 251 Israelis and other nationalities and then
held them as hostages.
My constituents were, as I was,
absolutely horrified by these
events, supporting the Israelis as victims of horrible crimes and as a
nation like ours, entitled to enact its right of self defence. The stories of the experiences of
Israelis, some facing the last moments inspired huge sympathy and understanding amongst the people of
the north-east, and we stood with Israel that the hostages immediately
be released and recognised that Israel has a right to defend itself and are right to strike against
and are right to strike against
Hamas.
571 days of violence have followed with two periods of ceasefire. Seemingly endless days of
the use of the world's most powerful
weapons against civilians by one of the world's most powerful militaries. I just want to emphasise
that Israel is the 15th most powerful nation in total firepower
powerful nation in total firepower
The high -- Amata- control forces have confirmed that they have killed
50,000 Palestinians and injured over 100,000 Palestinians. -- Hamas. The
numbers include 166 journalists, 120
academics, more than 224
humanitarian it workers.
Estimates
of the proportion of the dead in Gaza that are civilians range from
61% to the estimate that 90% are civilians. I detailed studies of bodies found in Gaza residential
buildings by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights find 54% were children and a further 27%
were women, 71% in total, suggesting the total, when civilian men are included, is likely to be closer to
included, is likely to be closer to
91% than 61% and the joint report by
Oxfam in October 2024 found the Israeli military had killed more women and children in Gaza than in
any other conflict around the world
in the past two decades.
These numbers do not include deaths from
disease and malnutrition. Israel has contested some numbers provided by
the Health Ministry in Gaza but the
IDF officials early in the war 'The Times' at 63% of casualties were civilians and given they do not have
their own numbers nor permit you in
fact finders or international journalists are the BBC to enter Gaza, we must go with other sources.
In January 2025, there was a peer
reviewed study 'The Lancet' which suggested the Ministry of Health in
Gaza was undercounting the death total by 41%.
If that study is accurate, it is likely the death
toll in Gaza as a result of the
Israeli military operations is over 19,000 today. In addition, 70,000
of... 70% of all structures in Gaza
have been destroyed by the Israeli.
They were audible sighs of relief across the country and indeed the
world other ceasefire in January 19 but then Israel launched extensive
strikes in Gaza. Early in March, the government stop humanitarian aid from entering Gaza. There were no
supplies, and that includes food and medicine, have entered Gaza in over
seven weeks and 95% of aid operations in Gaza have been suspended automatically cut back.
I
joined state issued on April 17 issued on April 17 x 12 aid
organisations based in multiple countries including Oxfam, save the
children, confirmed they had all the
means necessary to deliver aid but were being denied access by Israeli
authorities. Of course, infectious disease, particularly those that
infect children, are on the rise. The World Food Programme islands
three days ago that despite more
than 116,000 tons being ready at the border, 91% of the population of
Gaza, 2 million, that is 1,802,000
human beings, face higher levels of food insecurity which is basically
international aid jargon that means
actual starvation.
This is my fourth
question. Could the Minister confirm that is the understanding of the
situation in Gaza today. And moving
on to what can be done to support Palestinians in Palestine and I know that the government is taking action and pressing for an immediate
and pressing for an immediate
ceasefire and increasing funding to
UNRWA and sanctioning settler groups involved in violence. They are
undertaking a comprehensive review of arms sales to Israel which has
resulted in the suspension of some arms transfers and I've been advised
that pressure on Israel would be more effective if the High
Commissioner in Jerusalem and the UK ambassador to Israel and Tel Aviv
were able to work more closely together.
Could the Minister tell me
if that is happening or if it is the case? And I welcome greatly that the
Prime Minister of the UK has stated the Israeli decision to block aid is
completely wrong and should not
supported. And yet, the Israeli government continues to kill
Palestinian civilians, particularly children, and continues to prevent
the floor of food, medicine, other
supplies into Gaza and my constituents asked me for what the government is doing to and that and
that is the question that I repeat to my honourable friend, the Minister.
Specifically, question
Minister. Specifically, question
six, will the UK respond to the
International Court of Justice application and will they support the current case on humanitarian access in order to hold the Israeli
government better to account. Turning to what my constituents can
do directly to support the government in supporting Palestine and supporting Palestine directly,
Newcastle has a long history of
support for social justice and international solidarity and the
people of Newcastle central and west want to know how they can support the people of Palestine.
Can the
the people of Palestine. Can the
Minister tell me if the support the rate of my constituents to protest and show horror at the death and destruction in Palestine and if so,
how? Money matters - can my
constituents support the people of Palestine in the way in which they
do not spend money? Are they are
goods and services that they can buy? Is it clear what goods are from the illegally occupied territories and which are from Israel? How can
and which are from Israel? How can
my constituents distinguish the two? Geordies are famously generous so my
constituents want to know how to help was the news with charitable
giving without helping Hamas.
There
giving without helping Hamas. There
is a aid rotting at the border so does the Minister recognised that it must give through? Regular calls to
help victims of military strikes for the blockade individually. Does the
Minister recommend that they provide
funding to these appeals and, if not, how can constituents provide support to people that they are
watching? Alternatively, are there other organisations to support
advocacy efforts, legal aid, other forms of assistance do not rely on
physical access to Gaza? The UN
Human Rights Council has identified clear evidence of war crimes being committed by Israel in the conflict
with the Palestinians and so my 11th question is that the International
Criminal Court intense to
investigate this clear evidence of war crimes but what can constituents do to support survivors of war
crimes on the ground? Finally, how can my constituents support
constructive engagement between
Palestinians and the Israeli people? The people of Newcastle expressed to me every day how intensely they want the government to act and how
the government to act and how
intensely they wish to personally support the people of Palestine and help to end their suffering.
In the
future, I believe that we will all be asked what we did in the face of
be asked what we did in the face of
this horror and I urge the Minister to advise the people of Newcastle for the government is doing to stop
the killing of civilians and particularly children and the blockade on food and medicine
reaching the people of the Gaza Strip and to advise us on what we
can do as individuals and as a community and if there is nothing
more that can be done by the British Government, nothing more in addition
to what the Minister and the
Department have talked about and the actions which have been and not
resulted in change in the situation of the lifting of the blockade are
the ending of Israeli strikes on Gaza and can the Minister be clear
about that? If my constituents are condemned to watch the government
used tanks and military against apartment buildings and tent
encampments and family cars and watch that toddlers be pulled from
the rubble of their homes on the 10
o'clock news every night, please tell us.
Speak I think we have three colleagues who wish to contribute. colleagues who wish to contribute.
17:42
Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)
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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy
Speaker. I am speaking briefly to congratulate my honourable friend,
the member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West on her speech and
particularly the questions that she has brought to the Minister. It
has brought to the Minister. It
means I can speak. I wanted, firstly, to agree with her. In my
constituency, there is a huge outpouring of sympathy and there is
the wish to help constituents.
I've had thousands of emails and letters
and calls from constituents about
I easily had the largest postbag I have ever had in the 20 years that I
have been here. It shows, I think, the level of empathy and support that there is. Unfortunately, there
is very little good news for guards are part I start with one small
piece of good news which is admitted to London of the Palestinian Prime
Minister to meet with the Prime Minister here and to sign the memorandum of understanding to
reaffirm the commitment to the two-
state solution and announce a further aid package of £100 million
and, importantly, to show solidarity
between our two countries.
I met the
Prime Minister briefly at the all- party Parliamentary group and he
spoke fluently and clearly and calmly under the circumstances of
the demands and he was asked by one
of my colleagues, of the things that were named, and I think there were eight, which is most important. The
answer is the recognition of Palestinians and that might seem
strange given the immediate humanitarian disaster on the ground but in reality, without recognition
not Palestine having a diplomatic and constitutional terms the same status as Israel, the situation is
never going to be moved forward.
It is disappointing, therefore, that
is disappointing, therefore, that
the government... I do not expect my honourable friend to announce any major changes in policy today but I
hope that we are moving more quickly towards that and I hope perhaps
later this year when, in addition to the European countries which have already recognised the state of
Palestine, there are strong hints that further countries will follow
through, perhaps France. I do not think there has been a better nor more necessary time over the past few years for that step to be taken.
It is very difficult, and am speaking on behalf of my
constituents, to see fine we did not
do this many years ago like we did
Just briefly on the issue of aid,
the situation we know is dire. And perhaps we repeated that so often now that it has lost some of its
impact. But it's absolutely true that, not just the bakery has run
out and food not available in much of Gaza, but because of the
blockade, which I think in any one's terms is a breach of international humanitarian law.
There is no food
left in Gaza, and therefore people will starve and people will die as a consequence of that. And that is
consequence of that. And that is
horrific. An assessment humans ago, in February this year by the UN, EU
and World Bank estimated 95% of hospitals are non-functional, 91% of the population has high levels of
acute food insecurity. That's got worse. And 100% of education facilities were fully destroyed or
partially damaged. It estimated reconstruction and recovery costs
are $53 billion, including $20 billion needed in the next three
years.
And yes, UK has been
historically a generous donor of aid to Gaza and continues to be so, but with that level of need, and
importantly, the violence continuing and the destruction continuing, so yes my honourable friend was quite
right to emphasise the horrific number of deaths, particularly of civilian deaths, the majority of
those killed have been civilians in Gaza. But the problems go beyond that. They go to the actual
destruction of the whole civil society if they built environment,
and of an economy there.
And that again is clearly deliberate policy. And that is something which we
should not just locally in this House but at government level be
calling out. More profoundly. Yes, I
won't repeat the points she made in relation to the ICJ judgement, it's long overdue we respond to that.
It's long overdue that we look at again our trading relationship with
illegal settlements. It's a waste puzzled me as to why, given the
clear government policy that quite rightly those are illegal under international law, we continue to
trade with them.
I would like to see in conclusion, that the government takes lead from the British people
who have made clear their sympathy with the people of Gaza and the
people of Palestine in the West Bank and the other occupied territories and that we do take some more positive steps because without that,
we can only see a continuation of
the death and destruction.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Can I start by congratulating my honourable friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West
Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West for securing this important debate
17:49
Oliver Ryan MP (Burnley, Independent)
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for securing this important debate on Palestine. Much like my honourable friends to my left and in
front of me, I've had many many constituents, many hundreds of constituents get in touch really
since the election and throughout my
period as the Member of Parliament talking about the occupied Palestinian territories, talking about the death they have witnessed
on social media and television from families and friends, people that
they know perhaps from the region that have shared stories of the way
lives are being lived over there, and I promise those people that I
would raise my voice as part of that, and that's what I'm doing today.
As my honourable friend said,
I think I can choose better words, there has been such outpouring of emotion and sympathy and desire to
help and see peace in the region, and that's why we're all here speaking today. As we boyhood, the
situation of the Palestinians is
desperate. It's harrowing. It's hell on earth. It's estimated that 40 to 50,000 people have been killed since
October 7, so say the United
Nations, including as we heard over 250 aid workers and over 100,000 people have been injured.
90% of
Gazans face hunger, immediate hunger and the prospect of starvation, and death. 70% of buildings on the Gaza
Strip in particular have been
destroyed. In Israeli bombing. Very few education facilities, no outstanding hospitals. In March this
year Israel stopped all the continuing humanitarian aid and cut
off power completely to the strip. No food, no medicine, no aid, only
death. So I say to Israel, we must have peace, must have a return to
the ceasefire now, and in the long term a two-state solution.
I think that something a lot of members on
that something a lot of members on
this site agree with. At the same time, we can't forget what talking about the context of the occupied Palestinian territories that 59 abducted hostages still remain held
by Hamas by terrorists in Gaza, so I say to mass, Palestinians are
suffering. Stop this, bring the hostages home, disband, and end this
now. A massive killed thousands of
innocents, women, children and took over 200 hostages on that day, on October 7.
These people are not
freedom fighters. These people are
monsters. And I will not count any defence of Hamas other actions. But,
in talking about the actions of the Israeli government are moving into the West Bank, last month Israeli
tanks moved in to the West Bank for the first time in decades. 40,000
Palestinians have been displaced from areas of the West Bank and 916
Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank since October 2023. I have
met Palestinians living in the West
Bank.
A woman from the tenant nations farm, and I can only
describe their experiences as daily harassment, terror, bullying, by
Israeli troops. And settlers. To an unreasonable and unnecessary level,
and that's before we talk about the actions specifically of some of
these very aggressive settlers in these illegal settlements who do one complete annexation of the West Bank
and the utter destruction of the possibility of a two-state solution
and thereby a Palestinian state. I'm glad this government has
consistently called for a ceasefire and the release of all hostages and deed on my first week in parliament,
I raised this with the Prime Minister and was glad to hear him
recommit after the election to not only a two-state solution but a
ceasefire in the region.
It's also worth remembering it was this government that restored and increased funding to the United
Nations relief and Works agency for Palestinian refugees to more than
ever before. Now I complete you
condemn the awful violence in settlements we've seen in the West Bank and I'm glad this government
has strongly sanctioned settler groups, although I agree with the comments made previously that these sanctions need to go further. It's
important to say though that the
settlers don't represent all Israelis and do represent a very
niche extreme group of Israelis and there is a wider context here for
bringing about peace that can't be seen as a battle of nations or creeds.
This is between encases
extremists on either side. This Government has to spend a large
number of arms transfers to Israel, -- they have where they have been
known to be used and this is under
constant review. We want to get a din commander glad to see the Prime Minister set out another further £100 million Palestinian authority
yesterday. Got to end Israel's blocks are made and electricity in
the strip. And we must make the steps we promised in the election and supporting the creation of the plasticine state.
Which will not
only allow us as was mentioned by
the Member for me, legal protection, legal security for Palestinians it
also for the wider region and self- determination for the occupied areas, which they don't currently enjoy, have enjoyed for some time.
Their own clear and will carry all
of that with a desire certainly from my part that Hamas plays no part in
the Palestinian state. Justice for Palestinians and Israelis who have
lost loved ones is within our grasp.
Bernie and Penny Byfield want to see peace and want to stop the death,
17:55
Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West, Labour)
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get back to ceasefire, Canadian, uphold international law and proudly
17:55
Oliver Ryan MP (Burnley, Independent)
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uphold international law and proudly so. The opportunity of this June conference hosted by France and Saudi Arabia to progress estate hood
17:55
Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West, Labour)
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Saudi Arabia to progress estate hood for Palestinians. Recognition or to be a serious consideration from the
be a serious consideration from the UK. A political solution, a two- state solution is the only solution,
state solution is the only solution, and I thank the member who brought
**** Possible New Speaker ****
this debate today. I want to thank first of all my honourable friend from Newcastle
upon Tyne Central and West for bringing this debate and also for the solutions that she has put
forward. Just following on from the statements made by my honourable
friends, I do have to agree with my honourable friend from Hammersmith and Chiswick that the time is now
for us to recognise the state of Palestine. I think that will go some way in trying to make some
improvement to this situation.
I also agree with my honourable friend
from Bernie that what Hamas did is
unforgivable, but as I've said in this House before, the actions of the mass can in no way justify what is happening to the Palestinians in
Gaza. We don't have any control over
her mass, but Israel is Allied, and we should have more of an influence with what's happening in Israel.
Gaza has a population of more than two people who mostly depend upon
aid, but since second of March no humanitarian or commercial supplies
have gone into Gaza because of the blockade that Israel have imposed on the territory.
Since ninth of March,
no electricity has gone to Gaza because of Israel cutting off the
supply. Since January this year,
there have been 10,000 cases of acute malnutrition among children,
and 1,600 cases of severe acute malnutrition, and these are just the
reported figures. UN World Food
Programme have said that as of April 25, all feedstocks in Gaza have been
depleted. -- Food stocks. My
constituents continuously say to me we need to be on the right side of
we need to be on the right side of
history.
And we cannot stand by just waiting for the Israeli government to listen to us. I do have a lot of faith in this government. I am very
pleased that this government has
repeatedly stated the urgent need for a return to a ceasefire in Gaza
and for the hostages to be released, but also for the aid to be
unblocked. And I'm very pleased that this government has continuously
condemned the Israeli settlements and have stated that under international law, the settlements
are illegal.
And the settlements are harmful to the prospects of a future
Palestinian state, but we must call for and recognise the state of Palestine now. It was very good to
have the Prime Minister from the Palestinian Authority, Prime
Minister Mustafa in this country and
the Memorandum of Understanding that was signed between the two countries
is a good step forward. And I'm also
very very pleased that we have announced the £101 million package of support for the Occupied
Palestinian Territories.
But I do have this question. It's all very
well pledging their support, but if Israel continues behaving in the way
that it has so far, what effect will
that aid have? Will it actually stop
the killing, the bloodshed, the
malnutrition, that is now being suffered by the Palestinians in
Gaza. And although my honourable friend from Newcastle upon Tyne West
and Central went a lot further than
I am going in coming up with solutions, as I said earlier, I do have faith in this government, and I
do want the government now and the
Minister at some point to actually come to some kind of a conclusion as
to the further steps that this government can take for the
situation to be improved.
I have to confess my frustration. That
although we are making all the right comments, we are making all the right statements, nothing is
improving. People are continuing to die, women and children and others are continuing to die in Gaza and
the occupied Palestinian
How much longer are we going to tolerate this?
18:01
Catherine West MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Hornsey and Friern Barnet, Labour)
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I call on the Minister.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
It is a pleasure to see you in the chair for this very important
debate and to thank my honourable friend, the member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central West for securing
upon Tyne Central West for securing the debate. She is an active
campaigner on this topic and on other foreign policy matters. I
other foreign policy matters. I thank for the thoughtful way in which she put the debate into
context. Tomorrow is a national
holiday and it is a national holiday in Israel and also emphasising the
suffering from the dreadful attacks in October 2023 and the horrific header attacks and her support for
the people of Israel following that terrible moment.
She is quite right
to ask how she cancelled for it the
situation in the Middle East and how can she respond to their compassion
and concern? The Minister for the Middle East, the member for Lincoln,
would usually be here in this place and will watch this debate later on and will be happy to reply to any
bits I missed out or any questions which are half answered. When you
are the Minister for the Indo- Pacific you might answer half of the
question rather than the fullness that can be provided by the Minister
for the Middle East.
I'm grateful and I will attempt to answer some questions and points raised. The government is steadfast in friendship and support for the
Palestinian people because she asks what support we can do and what we
can do more and several members have
mentioned the visit to London yesterday for high-level meetings with both the Prime Minister and the
Foreign Secretary and the Member for
Hammersmith and Chiswick and the
Member for Wolverhampton West, we support the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination including an independent state at the Foreign Secretary and Prime
Minister signed a memorandum of understanding yesterday with
Minister Mustafa in training you could commitment to advancing Palestinian statehood as part of the
two-state solution and the memorandum of understanding
underscored the commit of the Palestinian authority to deliver the reform agenda as a matter of priority.
Turning to UK support for
guys of which is the main question that the constituents in Newcastle
upon Tyne want to know, is the UK
doing all that we can to alleviate the humanitarian situation? In the
last financial year the UK provided
hundred £20 million -- £120 million in funding and the Speaker package of £401 million for this financial year and this will increase substantial funding for the
humanitarian response in Gaza and support for Palestinian economic
development and strengthening the Palestinian authority's governance
and reform.
Support is making a real difference to those who need it most
and UK support has provided a central healthcare to -- essential healthcare and food to a 650,000
people and improved access to water and sanitation and hygiene services
and sanitation and hygiene services
**** Possible New Speaker ****
for close to 380,000 people. I thank my honourable friend for
a giving way and I thank the Minister for her comments and the context she is giving but, to be clear, in terms of the funding for
clear, in terms of the funding for humanitarian aid provided Gaza, is that getting through into Gaza right
now?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
now? She is right to say that the funding is one thing and the access is another and that is why it is
crucial that we are pressing the government in Israel to ensure vital
it can reach Gaza and humanitarian partners including the UN can deliver work effectively and I'm
grateful to the Member for Burnley for remaining the House under this
government we reintroduce the funding and I thank you for pointing
that out and emphasised that since
July of last year, UNRWA has been at the centre.
We know that they are critical in terms of infrastructure
on the ground to provide assistance and, in addition, jerky funding has
helped sustain the field hospital operations. She asks which organisations can be trusted to
organisations can be trusted to
deliver and UK Med have facilitated thousands of operations 2024 per
critical and life-saving surgeries
and also providing the world health
agency to make sure vital supplies reach those being treated in Egypt.
She asks who can help - our government through international organisations which public funds put
money towards such as the WHO and
they are providing this vital trip because the experts always say it is best to work through those big
funding organisations because they do the enormously helpful work.
For example, the delivery of polio
vaccination campaigns protecting over 600,000 vulnerable children
across Gaza. She mentioned the diseases and the risk of further
illness but that polio vaccination cabin protected over 600,000
vulnerable children across Gaza and with the Global Polio Eradication Initiative. We know this is crucial
and that is why we continue to support the vital work of UNRWA,
including essential services, education, healthcare to civilians in Gaza and the West Bank and Palestinian refugees across the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
region. Of course. I apologise I could not be here
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I apologise I could not be here
at the beginning. The honourable member and my constituents were both there. It's important for the things is the medical help but what is
is the medical help but what is important for young children is education. Could the Minister give
education. Could the Minister give some more information? Educationally, not just what they
Educationally, not just what they are missing out on but the opportunities that are changing their lives. Important to have that as well.
I thank the Member for
Strangford from entering education. This is so crucial. We don't want children to go and educated and then recreate through perhaps a sense of
recreate through perhaps a sense of
a well of suffering, recreated the next generation less education, less understanding of the world. Sadly, some other members who spoke earlier
in the debate mentioned the destruction of schools and it is
important UNRWA is able to gain access to Gaza and the Occupied
Palestinian Territories so schools
can be built and classrooms can be
developed and we can give you help that many families need.
People may ask and members have asked what the government is doing and if we can do
government is doing and if we can do
more and the Foreign Secretary has intervened time and time again and most recently he spoke to the Israeli Foreign Minister on April 15
and raised urgent concerns about the deteriorating humanitarian situation
and the urgent need to restore the
flow of aid in the UK it should a statement last week calling on the government to restart immediately
government to restart immediately
the rapid and unimpeded flow of aid to Gaza and we've raised concerns at the UN Security Council including on
the safety of aid workers.
And there
was an intervention at the Security Council this week expressing outrage at recent attacks including the killing of Palestinian workers and
the straight in a UN compound one
**** Possible New Speaker ****
March 19. I'm grateful to my right honourable friend for a giving way.
honourable friend for a giving way. Could she have some indication as to what response we have had that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
what response we have had that Israel might make a change? As my right honourable friend
**** Possible New Speaker ****
As my right honourable friend will appreciate, for many of the
will appreciate, for many of the Israelis they say people do not understand the desire for security
understand the desire for security and equality Palestinian communities saying that those outside the region cannot possibly understand the
extent of their suffering. In a
nutshell, that is the depth of what we are facing here and we must
redouble our efforts to make the case to the senior people involved and the decision-makers in the conflict but to impress upon them
the importance for our constituents
and that the reply must be true and must come with action attached.
I
just returned safely to the straight on March 19 because it has been
subject of debates here and Israel
admitted this is caused by one of the attacks, despite the compound being used as a humanitarian
facility and this is inexcusable and we urge Israel to ensure accurate
public statements on these incidents and there must be full and
transparent investigations and they must hold offenders to account with
a deconstruction system to prevent such terrible tragedies re-
occurring.
Members have mentioned the International Court Of Justice
and I wanted to remind what the
Foreign Secretary has said in the past that the UK is committed to international law and respecting independence of the International
Court of Justice and they are continuing to consider the advisory
committee seriously and to reassure
members across the House that we are committed to a two-state solution and back to and is unwavering and we
and back to and is unwavering and we
The opinion that this should bring an end to this as rapidly as possible.
This must be done in a way that creates conditions for negotiations towards a two-state
solution and I know this issue, my honourable friend for Hammersmith and Chiswick has raised this on a number of occasions on this
important subject. The Member
Properly mentioned settlements and settler violence and I wanted to respond specifically on those
points. The UK government's decision is Israeli settlements in the West
Bank are illegal and settlements do not offer security to Israel are
Palestinians. The settlement violence has reached record levels and the Israeli government have
seized more of the West Bank in 2024 than in the past 20 years.
This is completely unacceptable. The Foreign
Secretary met with the Palestinian members in the West Bank and heard how communities, not just
Palestinian communities but also the local communities and other groups
local communities and other groups
who are affected and he was kill your that they must clampdown on settler violence and end settlement
-- He was clear. I want to emphasise, and I thank the Member for mentioning the hostages. This is
of course a situation which we feel strongly about due to the
involvement of a British hostage
families who have members and I want to respond briefly on the point that
the UK government has welcomed the
agreement to end the fighting and
they wanted for the hostages including the UK residents.
This has
been a priority for the government since the start of the conflict that we will not stop until they are all
home. Thank you for raising VAT. The
death of another hostage who has had strong UK links and was tragically held hostage by terrorists in Gaza is heartbreaking. It is a little
time for the them and we thank Qatar, Egypt and the US for support
in bringing this horrific ordeal to an end. The hostages have endured
unimaginable suffering and the situation in Gaza has continued to worsen and that ceasefire needs to
get back on track.
I also briefly
want to mention the Bibas family and
they are going through intolerable anguish involving their children. I
super Manasseh Sogavare we want all the billing cottages to be released and the ceasefire to be restarted.
The government remains committed to ending the suffering and securing
We are coming to the end and that led to thank the honourable member...
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Firstly at like to say how pleased I am to see the honourable
pleased I am to see the honourable member first. I'm sure the Minster will join with me in expressing the pleasure of seeing the honourable member for strengthening his place and his ability to intervene. I
and his ability to intervene. I would not have felt I really hadn't had Gemma debate had not heard this voice, so that's... I'm very
voice, so that's... I'm very grateful for that. I thank the Minister for what she said, the
Minister for what she said, the comments she has made.
She mentioned the settlements and the illegally
the settlements and the illegally Palestinian territories. As being
illegal. I asked her one of the questions I put was about distinguishing between goods from
legally Occupied Palestinian Territories and goods from Israel. So my constituents can make
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decisions about what they purchase. With her permission, I will write
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With her permission, I will write to her on that point or ask the Minister for the Middle East to
Minister for the Middle East to write to her on that point. Of course Israel been a close friend with the UK, we have trading relations with them. But her
relations with them. But her specific point on whether there are particular products that can be purchased to support the situation
purchased to support the situation at the moment which perhaps specific
at the moment which perhaps specific products which may have been made by
particular groups that she wishes to support, traditional handicrafts et cetera, I will seek the guidance of officials so that I can write to her
with some confidence on that
question as to what it is.
But in assertive general trade certainly we are very keen to maintain their
trading relationship. It gives us another way of talking to Israel about this important question.
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At like to thank the Minister Grady for her generosity. And also
Grady for her generosity. And also to say that as the Minister for Indo Pacific, she's done a fantastic job
Pacific, she's done a fantastic job of setting out the complex issues in response to the contributions of members. I will take her up on her
members. I will take her up on her offer however to write to me on these questions, and I will make sure that as well as the Hansard
sure that as well as the Hansard record, the Minister for the Middle East has a copy of all the questions
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are set out. And I thanked her? Anything she
came to the House with me in 2015. And learned some very nice manners
over the years, and it's very important in these sorts of very potentially very heartfelt debates
that we have the tone that we've had
this afternoon in the House. Now conclusion the government is steadfast in our friendship and support for the Palestinian people so she can reassure her constituents
of that. Our support for the Palestinian authority continues to provide essential services and
provide essential services and
supports reform and state building.
I was above the humanitarian response in Gaza provides food and medical assistance to those who most need it. And we will keep pressing
for access. And our consistent support for Palestinian statehood
create two-state solution aims to ensure a political horizon and
future where Palestinians and Israelis can live in peace and security because in the end that's the only solution that can bring
stability and prosperity to the
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entire region. Thank you. The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the
that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Order order. On
18:25
Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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18:25
Catherine West MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Hornsey and Friern Barnet, Labour)
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This debate has concluded