House of Commons
Prayers
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Oral Answers to Questions
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD)
1. What progress he has made on the Northern Futures project; and if he will make a statement.
The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)
Before I turn to my answer, I am sure that I speak on behalf of the whole House in saying how shocked I am to have heard about the very serious air accident that appears to have happened in the Alps in the last couple of hours, with the reported very large loss of life. I am sure that the thoughts and prayers of everybody in all parts of the House are with the families and friends of those who were on board.
Northern Futures has been a great success. It has helped us to engage thousands of people across the country in a debate about how we rebalance the economy and has helped to generate the political consensus needed to tackle the over-centralisation of power in Whitehall. Specifically, it paved the way for more than £7 billion of much needed road and rail investment announced in the autumn statement and for a set of radical decentralisation deals with Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds.
Mark Hunter
I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Northern Futures is a major part of the coalition Government’s efforts to rebalance the economy after decades of over-investment in and focus on London and the south-east. Constituencies such as Cheadle, where unemployment is now just 1.4%, are key beneficiaries. Does he agree that this will be one of this Administration’s greatest legacies?
The Deputy Prime Minister
Yes, I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. After such a long period of over-centralisation of decision making in Whitehall, the fact that this coalition Government have finally been able to set Greater Manchester, Cheadle and other parts of the country free from excessive Whitehall control is a great achievement that has been accompanied by a rebalancing of the economy. Sixty per cent. of the net growth in jobs has taken place outside London and the south-east. That contrasts very favourably with Labour’s record.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Is the Deputy Prime Minister actually going to tell me, or the people in Yorkshire where I represent the town of Huddersfield, that this late conversion to the northern powerhouse and all this talk is anything more than pie in the sky? The Government should have been doing something about the northern regions in the past five years.
The Deputy Prime Minister
What an absurd thing to say for a member of a party whose Government presided over a decline in manufacturing that was three times faster than under Margaret Thatcher, and who saw the north-south divide open ever wider during the 13 years of the Labour Administration. We have not just started this in the later stage of this Parliament; we have introduced city deals and local growth deals, we have devolved more funding, and we have devolved control over business rates—something never, ever undertaken by Labour.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
Health devolution will allow decision makers to prioritise health inequalities in Manchester, but does my right hon. Friend agree that health professionals in the NHS need to be involved in the detailed discussions to make sure that we get the best deal for patients in our local NHS?
The Deputy Prime Minister
Yes, of course. Any change in something as complex and important as the NHS in any part of the country needs to be done with the fullest possible participation of the health professionals who will be delivering that change. I regularly encounter—I am sure that my hon. Friend has found the same—health professionals who complain about the straitjacket of decision making from Whitehall and who will welcome the idea that more decisions can be taken locally to suit the health needs of local communities.
Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)
First, may I echo the Deputy Prime Minister’s words about the tragic air crash in the Alps?
Over the past five years, average cuts to local authorities have been £80 per person, but in the Deputy Prime Minister’s city of Sheffield the figure is almost three times higher, and in my city of Liverpool it is almost five times higher. Will he take this final opportunity at the Dispatch Box to admit to the House that the Conservative Government whom he has supported for five years is no friend of the north?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I know that the hon. Gentleman’s party is in perpetual denial about the economic mess it bequeathed this Government. The problem is that, because of mismanagement on Labour’s watch, the economy blew up, the banks, which it was sucking up to, held a gun to our heads, and 6% was wiped off the value of our national economy, which took £2,400 off every household in this country. That is what the Labour party did. We have had to pick up the pieces. Of course, given that local public spending represents about a quarter of the total, savings need to be made locally as well as nationally, but that is a direct consequence of Labour’s mismanagement of the national economy.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
2. What progress he has made on further devolution in England.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
5. What progress he has made on further devolution in England.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark)
This Government have a proud record of devolving power from central Government to the cities, towns and counties of this country: we passed the Localism Act 2011; we have initiated and negotiated 28 city deals; we are devolving at least £12 billion of central resources to local places through growth deals; and, with the Greater Manchester agreement, and agreements with other cities to follow, there is now unstoppable momentum to continue that success.
Stuart Andrew
I am grateful for that answer. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the constitutional reform priority should be to ensure a fair and balanced devolution settlement for every part of the UK and to introduce English votes for English laws?
Greg Clark
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why the Leader of the House has made it very clear that the return of a Conservative Government will correct that injustice and there will indeed be English votes for English laws.
Henry Smith
As well as English votes for English laws and, indeed, devolution to our great cities, can my right hon. Friend assure me that a future Conservative Government will devolve more authority on service delivery to the great counties of England, which have a strong track record of democratic delivery? I welcome the growth deal from which West Sussex has benefited.
Greg Clark
Indeed I will. My hon. Friend was a distinguished leader of one such county. It is clear that the success of the city deals has introduced a model that other capable authorities can take up. I encourage all our county leaders to prepare their plans to take powers from central Government and to be in charge of those budgets that were previously tied up in Whitehall.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
The devolution proposals for Greater Manchester have been widely welcomed, but the proposal to appoint an interim mayor with no executive powers is less welcome. Does the Minister agree that it should be a priority to arrange for primary legislation so that Greater Manchester can have an elected mayor?
Greg Clark
I do think there should be an elected mayor for Manchester—that is exactly what has been agreed with every one of the Greater Manchester authorities. One of the consequences of the agreement with Greater Manchester is that it will have a directly elected mayor who will be a hugely important national and international figure, as befits that great city.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Devolution of power and responsibility to Wales required an Act of Parliament and a referendum of the people, yet Manchester and elsewhere are seeing ad hoc devolution that heralds the break up of the NHS. Is it not time to do this properly, rather than play a political game in the run-up to an election?
Greg Clark
I am very surprised that the hon. Gentleman seems to be against the devolution that has been welcomed right across the country and that has led to the leaders of Cardiff approaching the Government to request a city deal. I will visit Cardiff later this week to begin negotiations. They will be very concerned to hear that the hon. Gentleman is against it.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
The population of Essex is more than double that of Cornwall, and the population of the six counties of the east of England is considerably greater than that of Wales, so may we have devolution to the powerhouse of the six counties of the east of England?
Greg Clark
Through the Government’s programme over the past few years, we have devolved—and we will complete the devolution of—£12 billion of resources that were previously administered by Ministers and officials in Whitehall to Essex and other great counties. That is work in progress, but I agree with my hon. Friend that we can and should go further.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Can the Minister see the regions or cities of England one day having more devolution than Scotland currently has?
Greg Clark
The progress we have made in England has been significant. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have also concluded a city deal with Glasgow. Some of the reflections I have heard from Scotland state that the Scottish Government have been a rather centralising Government and that they will look to the model of decentralisation that we have pursued in England to try to save them from that over-centralisation.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
3. What steps he has taken to uphold the integrity of voting in introducing individual electoral registration.
The Minister for the Constitution (Mr Sam Gyimah)
Increasing the integrity of the electoral process is one of the fundamental reasons behind the introduction of individual electoral registration. Unlike the previous system, under which the head of the household registered people, people now have to register and have their entry verified against Government and local authority records. That is one way in which we are ensuring the integrity of the register. Furthermore, we have ensured that anyone wishing to vote by post or by proxy at the elections on 7 May must have been verified through IER. That safeguards the integrity not only of the register but of the ballot.
Richard Graham
There are almost 4,000 so-called red voters—I hope the colour is not symbolic—who were already registered in Gloucester before IER was introduced. They cannot vote by postal vote, but if they exist, they are entitled to vote in person. What steps has my hon. Friend’s Department taken to ensure that people do not impersonate others in polling stations?
Mr Gyimah
I thank my hon. Friend for a very good question. On the numbers of people, the number of voters carried forward from the last annual canvass who have lost their postal vote is actually very small—it is about 3% in total—and the remainder have been confirmed against Government records. This is in the context of an important safeguard that was introduced during the transition to IER, ensuring that no one registered to vote at the last annual canvass will lose their vote in May. I would add, however, that any attempt to impersonate someone at a polling station is a criminal offence.
Mr Speaker
Order. We are extraordinarily obliged to the hon. Gentleman. I was going to thank him for the notable comprehensiveness of his response, which is a polite way of exhorting him to resume his seat.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
Will the Minister tell the House what he believes has been the effectiveness of individual and continuous registration in Northern Ireland? Does he accept the importance and value of continuing the annual household canvass to achieve robust electoral registration?
Mr Gyimah
We have learned the lessons from Northern Ireland. One of the things we have preserved in the transition to IER is indeed the annual canvass. That is also why we have carried over people from the last annual canvass to ensure that no one who was registered to vote as at January 2014 will lose their right to vote come 7 May.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
Voting integrity is obviously important. There are real concerns that many students, particularly first-year students, will not get on the register. I have been trying to encourage them to register and to vote. What has the Minister done to make sure that they have a chance to vote?
Mr Gyimah
Ensuring that everyone who is eligible to vote is on the register and can exercise that right has been a priority of the Government throughout the transition to IER. We have made £500,000 available to the National Union of Students to run a programme to register students to vote. We are also working with universities so that they can provide data to local authorities, which can then chase up students not on the register to get them on to the register.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
Despite the warm words from the Minister, at the end of this Parliament there will be many millions who are entitled to vote but missing from the electoral register. The Government’s cack-handed and rushed move to individual electoral registration has made things worse. Fortunately, others are trying to repair the damage—Hope not Hate, Bite the Ballot, Operation Black Vote, the Daily Mirror, trade unions, Operation Disabled Vote, faith groups, the Labour party and many others. Will the Minister join me in thanking and commending all those working hard to ensure that all those entitled to vote are registered to vote?
Mr Gyimah
I will take no lessons from the right hon. Gentleman. The Labour party left office with 7.5 million people missing from the register. IER was Labour’s policy, and this Government have taken it forward. Of course the Government have worked with a whole series of groups, including private organisations such as Facebook, to promote registration. Indeed, national voter registration day saw 166,000 people register to vote. Operation Black Vote has received funding from this Government to get people on the register. You left the register with 7.5 million people missing; we are putting it right.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
4. What plans he has to devolve powers to Cornwall.
The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)
In January this year, I announced that we will devolve to Cornwall an extra £11.3 million from the local growth fund, bringing the total investment devolved to Cornwall to £60.2 million. I have made it clear that I would like to go much further and pass legislation in the next Parliament to allow the Cornish people to have a Cornish assembly with power over housing, health care and transport, if that is what the people of Cornwall want.
Andrew George
I hope that my right hon. Friend does not think that I am damning him with faint praise when I say that he is the best party leader by far. He will therefore recognise that Cornwall will benefit a great deal from the proposed devolution-enabling Act. Does he agree that under those proposals Cornwall and places like it could redesign their planning and housing systems to put local need above speculators’ greed and the increase in second homes?
The Deputy Prime Minister
As my hon. Friend rightly suggests, we should push ahead with devolution and decentralisation across the United Kingdom in the next Parliament, but not to a fixed blueprint. Some areas may want to go further and faster than others. If, in Cornwall, it is felt that a Cornish assembly, born out of the existing county council—it would not be yet another talking shop for politicians, and could even cut the number of politicians if it wished to—should have powers over planning, such as those that he suggests, I would hope that we would empower it in that way.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
13. The Plymouth and south-west peninsula city deal, which was announced recently along with the enterprise zone, will ensure that there is significant investment in Devon and Cornwall and that there are new jobs. Does my right hon. Friend share my concern that if, by some misfortune, the Labour party got into power, the focus would no longer be on Devon and Cornwall but elsewhere?
The Deputy Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is right to say that the Labour party has never sought to look after the interests of the south-west, nor the interests of the national economy more broadly. Without a stronger economy, it is impossible to create a fairer society in which power is distributed to all parts of the United Kingdom, including the south-west.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
6. What steps he is taking to ensure that residents of Oldham East and Saddleworth constituency benefit from the Government’s constitutional and political reform proposals.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark)
The residents of the hon. Lady’s constituency will benefit from the biggest devolution of powers from central Government to local government for decades. The Greater Manchester city deal and the growth deal agreement will put the transport budget in the hands of the people of Manchester; see the building of 15,000 extra homes over the next 10 years; devolve the skills budget, securing more and better training; allow 100% of business rate revenue to be retained locally; and bring together £6 billion of health and social care budgets to join up services. That is all part of this Government’s northern powerhouse initiative.
Debbie Abrahams
More than 112,000 people were made homeless in 2013, which was an increase of 26% on 2010. That can be directly attributed to the Government’s welfare policies, including their new sanctions regime, and to the lack of affordable housing. My office has been inundated with homelessness cases over the past few months. How does the Minister think the increase in homelessness will affect voter registration?
Greg Clark
The hon. Lady’s initial question was about how the Government’s policies on devolution and constitutional reform have benefited her constituents and I set that out in terms. I would have thought that she would want to recognise that, as did the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer). The front page of the Manchester Evening News put it in this way: “We’re All Winners!” Part of the gain for Manchester is that local people can make more of the local decisions, including those on housing, as I mentioned in my previous answer.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)
As Deputy Prime Minister, I support the Prime Minister on the full range of Government policy initiatives. I take special responsibility for the Government’s programme of political and constitutional reform.
Greg Mulholland
I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. I urge him to intervene in the campaign to get the drugs that are needed for those with Morquio syndrome, Duchenne muscular dystrophy and tuberous sclerosis. The Prime Minister said that there should be continuity of treatment, yet we have found out that that will not be delivered by the Department of Health. Katy Brown, the mother of my six-year-old constituent Sam Brown, has said that that is at best “misleading, at worst underhand”. This situation is disgraceful. We need to fund those drugs now on an interim basis. Will my right hon. Friend speak to the Prime Minister and get it sorted this week?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the way he has sought to represent his constituent Sam Brown, and all the other children and their families who are—quite understandably—concerned about the continued provision of these drugs. As he heard from the Prime Minister when he raised the matter at Prime Minister’s questions two weeks ago, the understanding is that NHS England is conducting a review that will conclude by the end of next month. In the meantime, drug companies will continue with the provision of these drugs until the end of May, so that continuity is assured. Given my hon. Friend’s concerns, I will undertake to look urgently at the matter again.
Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)
In an interview last week the Deputy Prime Minister pronounced that
“the way in which politics works is bust”
and that “Westminster is a joke”. When he said that, was he referring to himself?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I wonder what answer I should give to that. No, of course not.
Ms Harman
He went on in that interview to say that he is now “more anti-establishment” than he was five years ago. Were those the same five years in which he took the ministerial car, the ministerial salary and the Tory Whip? Were they the same five years in which he trebled tuition fees, imposed the bedroom tax, put up VAT and cut taxes for millionaires? However he describes himself, the only thing people in this country will remember him for is giving a whole new meaning to the phrase, “Yes, Prime Minister.”
The Deputy Prime Minister
I cannot blame the right hon. and learned Lady; she certainly finished in the style to which we have all been accustomed for the last five years by reading out pre-rehearsed questions. I think that the era of single-party government in this country is over. I know she does not like that idea and that the establishment parties—those Members sitting both behind me and in front of me—do not like it either, but I think it is over. This coalition Government have, in very difficult circumstances, presided over what is now the fastest growing economy in the developed world, with more people in work than ever before, and more women in work than ever before, after the absolute economic mess she bequeathed us. That is quite an achievement.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
T5. I welcome the focus that growth deals are giving to investment priorities in north-east Cheshire and across the country. What steps are being taken to help boost and support the life sciences corridor in Cheshire and across Manchester, and to help boost jobs in Macclesfield as well?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I know that the Minister for Universities, Science and Cities was recently at Alderley Park, and I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s personal contribution to the Alderley Park taskforce. I am pleased that through the local growth deals Cheshire and Greater Manchester secured an allocation from the Government of £20 million towards their joint £4 million LEP life science investment fund. More broadly, we must build on strengths in the health care sector in the north of England. That is why in last week’s Budget £20 million was announced for the “health north” initiative, which will enable better care for patients and promote medical innovation in the north of England.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
T2. Through local growth deals and local enterprise partnerships the Government claim to be giving local communities greater control over spending priorities with one hand, yet they savagely make cuts with the other. That means a real failure to deliver projects in places such as West Lancashire that are on the edges of our cities, and they are missing much of the investment that could be made. In the final stages of this Government, will the Minister acknowledge that that has not been fair to all our communities?
The Deputy Prime Minister
This is the second time the issue has been raised, and it would be so much easier to take seriously the hon. Lady’s concern about savings that have been asked of local government were it not for the fact that the shadow Chancellor has said that hundreds of millions of pounds would be asked of local government in further cuts if the Labour party won the next election. Which is it? Does the Labour party believe that further savings need to be made from local government, or not? Officially it says that those savings will need to be made, even in the next Parliament as we continue to balance the books, yet in this House the hon. Lady and her colleagues somehow think that no savings are required whatsoever. I am afraid savings will continue to be required until we have finished balancing the books and balancing them fairly.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
T6. Is the Deputy Prime Minister aware of representations that there should be a tax on family homes in London and the south-east to pay for nurses in Scotland? Does he agree that we need to have a fair Union and a strong Government, not a weak Government dancing to the tune of, and held to ransom by, the Scottish National party?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I certainly agree that in the same way as it would be very ill-advised to put the UK Independence party in charge of Europe, it would be very ill-advised to put the SNP in charge of a country it wishes to pull apart.
On property taxation, as the hon. Gentleman knows we have a property tax system, the council tax, which rather eccentrically ends at a certain level. My party therefore believes it is logical to extend the principle of banded taxation for properties higher up the value chain, both here in the south-east and elsewhere.
Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
T3. Given the overwhelming dominance of London and the south-east in the unelected second Chamber, does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that an elected senate of the nations and regions would be a good way to give the regions of England a stronger say in how the country is run?
The Deputy Prime Minister
Yes, that would be an excellent idea. I only wish the hon. Gentleman’s party had actually abided by his wisdom when we had the chance to vote for an elected second Chamber. For specious procedural reasons, the Labour party turned its back on its long-held traditional view in favour of democracy in the second Chamber. I agree that one of the virtues of an elected second Chamber is precisely that it would provide an accurate reflection of the regions and nations of the United Kingdom at the other end of the building.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
T7. Simon Stevens, the chief executive of NHS England, has said that by 2020 the NHS will need an extra £8 billion a year at the very minimum to provide the services we all need. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is our duty as politicians to find that funding, and that any party going into this election saying that it will provide less than that is, no matter how it spins it, actually saying that it will underfund the NHS?
The Deputy Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. Simon Stevens’s analysis of the financial needs of the NHS specified that by the end of the next Parliament there would be an £8 billion funding gap. That is not some sort of easy throwaway figure; it was identified on the basis of certain assumptions about considerable continued savings in the NHS. The Liberal Democrats have specified how we would find that £8 billion. It is now for other parties in the House to come clean on how they would find the money identified by Simon Stevens.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
T4. The Deputy Prime Minister and I have not always seen eye to eye, but as it is his last appearance in the Chamber I will go easy on this occasion. He failed to mention, when he answered Question 1, that Liverpool is a part of the northern powerhouse. What guarantees can he give that my city will have a seat front and centre at the top table of the northern powerhouse?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I very much hope it is not the last time the hon. Gentleman and I interact across the Floor of the House of Commons—and in this configuration as well. Liverpool already has a seat at the top table of the Northern Futures and northern powerhouse initiatives. The significant rail and road transport projects, which were confirmed just last week, had Liverpool very much at their heart. They will lead to significantly improved road and rail connections from Liverpool to the rest of the north-west and to the rest of the country. The good thing is that those proposals were developed on a cross-party basis—of all parties—and in a consensus of both national Government and local government, including in Liverpool.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
T10. As someone who was initially sceptical about the longevity of the coalition Government, I am very proud of our achievements and very pleased with our successes. Consequently, I would award the current Government nine marks out of 10. How many marks out of 10 would the Deputy Prime Minister rate the current Government?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I will leave the marking and the scores to other people. I look to hearing the scores that will no doubt be delivered by other, more critical voices shortly. I agree with my hon. Friend that the durability of the coalition Government was not widely predicted when we were formed. I remember, when the coalition started, reading almost daily portentous predictions that the coalition Government would not survive. We have survived for half a decade and we have done so in the national interest.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
T8. The Deputy Prime Minister promised in the coalition agreement to set a limit on the number of special advisers. There were 71 under Labour. There are 107 now, including 20 in his office, at a cost of £1,200,000. Does he believe in leading by exhortation rather than example?
The Deputy Prime Minister
We have been more open and transparent about the employment of special advisers than any previous Government, and I have never hidden the fact that in a coalition Government of two parties, clearly both parties will wish to employ special advisers in order to facilitate the mechanics and workings of government.
Mr Speaker
I call Mr Richard Graham. [Interruption.] Get in there, Mr Graham; your moment is now.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
T11. May I thank the Deputy Prime Minister’s office warmly for all its hard work in ensuring that growth deals for Gloucester and Gloucestershire have been delivered over the past five years, and may I exhort him to do more of the same in the next Parliament?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend. I agree that the growth deals have set an important precedent in handing more power, money and decision-making authority to local communities, and I hope it sets a trend that will not be reversed in the next Parliament.
Mr Speaker
It is no surprise that the previous career of the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) was as a Foreign Office diplomat. He is able to react to any situation, even when he is busily consulting his iPhone. We are deeply obliged to him.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
T9. I notice that the Deputy Prime Minister is responsible for building strategic relations with Europe. Given how weak our country is in Europe and NATO and how so many people compare this Prime Minister with Neville Chamberlain, is he proud of the job he has done promoting Britain in Europe?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman gets very worked up. It is no secret that there are differences of opinion in this coalition Government on some of the big long-term issues concerning Britain’s future in the EU. My party will never argue for withdrawal from the EU, because we think it is in our overwhelming national interest to remain part of it. I would say this, however: political and diplomatic strength is directly related to economic strength, and, in my view, if we stay the course and finish the job—and finish it fairly—of fixing the finances and continuing to rewire the British economy, within a generation it could be the largest and most potent economy in Europe, which will deliver considerable clout to future generations.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
T12. Given that London’s economy is greater than Scotland’s and Wales’s combined, as we devolve power to Scotland and Wales and the northern powerhouse, what plans does my right hon. Friend have for making sure that devolution flows to London as well?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I agree that the process of devolution and decentralisation not only to the different nations of the UK but to the different parts of England is an ongoing process that should benefit all parts of the country, including London. Just last week, announcements were made of the further devolution of powers to the London Mayor’s office, in addition to the considerable powers he already possesses. That could be built upon in the future.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
The Deputy Prime Minister’s proposals for the alternative vote system were roundly defeated in a referendum. Will he tell the voters whether he is now prepared to take no for an answer?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I would like the hon. Lady to confirm—perhaps by raising a hand—which party had AV as its manifesto commitment in the last election. It was not the Liberal Democrats; it was not the Conservatives—oh, it was the Labour party’s policy. We put to the British people her party’s own policy, and she now wants me to disown it. Honestly, of all the topsy-turvy accusations I have had levelled at me, that really takes the biscuit.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
T13. For the last five years, I have tried to irritate the Deputy Prime Minister by asking him questions exposing Liberal Democrat failures, and he has always answered with good grace and good humour—although never the question I asked, of course—and I think that history will look on him as having been courageous in bringing his party into a national Government at a time of crisis. He should take great credit for that. My final question to the Deputy Prime Minister is simple: will he confirm whether he intends to serve another full term as Deputy Prime Minister?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I have enjoyed answering—or in the hon. Gentleman’s view, not answering—his questions on many occasions and perhaps look forward to doing so again in the future. I would happily settle for two terms as Prime Minister.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Because the Prime Minister has listed a number of people who might want his job and because a leadership contest might come much sooner than he wishes, would the Deputy Prime Minister like to indicate those of his colleagues who are likely to wish to replace him? One obvious candidate is not present at the moment.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
T14. I warmly welcome the Government’s announcement on additional funding for childhood and adolescent mental health services. Will my right hon. Friend reassure me that we will never again see children and adolescents being held in police cells because there are insufficient in-patient beds? We need more tier 3 and tier 4 facilities for young people.
The Deputy Prime Minister
I strongly agree. It is very good indeed that something close to a cross-party consensus has emerged over the last few years in favour of dealing with generations of discrimination—and it is discrimination—against mental health in the NHS and, within that, an almost institutionalised form of cruelty through which very vulnerable children and adolescents with serious mental health conditions have not been treated and cared for. This cannot be reversed and corrected overnight, but we can make a start. We have done that, and last week’s announcement in the Budget of a £1.25 billion investment in children and young adult mental health services will have a transformative effect on the tens of thousands of children who will now be better treated than they have been for a long time.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
My constituents, I am happy to say, voted for AV in the recent referendum, but they were not among the majority. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that with a five-party system at the UK level—and even more throughout the nations and regions of the UK—we need to look again at the electoral system and that this should be a priority for a constitutional convention hopefully set up under a Labour Government?
The Deputy Prime Minister
One should not expect to ask a Liberal Democrat about electoral reform and fail to get a hearty answer—well, perhaps not a hearty answer, but the hon. Gentleman knows what I mean. The electoral system we have is woefully unrepresentative of the way people vote. As he rightly suggests, it is becoming ever more unrepresentative as the old duopoly of politics gives way to something much more fluid and plural. Our electoral system—and, indeed, the way in which we conduct our business here—is stuck firmly in the past. It is anachronistic; it will have to change; in my view, it will change one day.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
Is the Deputy Prime Minister as disappointed as I am that the groundbreaking devolution deal announced for West Yorkshire received a less than generous response from certain West Yorkshire council leaders?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I agree. I was struck by the rather churlish and sour note coming from a number of Labour leaders in West Yorkshire about a deal that amounts to a very significant transfer of power, money and responsibility to Leeds and the west Yorkshire area. It was warmly welcomed by Roger Marsh, the chair of the local enterprise partnership. It would be much better if we could work on a cross-party basis to welcome rather than denigrate those steps towards further devolution.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Only days ago, the Government appointed a Conservative Member of Parliament to the £45,000 a year job as chair of the National Heritage Memorial Fund. Today we learn that another Conservative MP is about to be appointed to another office of profit under the Crown. Is this not a flagrant example of jobs for the boys, and will the anti-establishment bit that is left in the Deputy Prime Minister condemn such appointments?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I am not entirely sure which specific instances the hon. Gentleman alludes to, but everybody remembers the explosion in quangocracy under the Labour Government when legions of placemen and women were dotted around the country by the Labour party. In fact, many of them are still in post.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
The Government have devolved an awful lot of funding down to Labour-controlled west Yorkshire councils for their transport priorities. What can be done to make sure that we get some true devolution, so that the money can flow down to places such as Shipley for the much-need Shipley eastern bypass, and so that the money is not just kept by these Labour councils for pet projects in Labour heartlands?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. Every time we enter into local growth deals, particularly those that are centred on big metropolitan authorities and big urban areas, there is legitimate concern—which was reflected in his question—about the possibility that some outlying or linked rural communities will not get a slice of the pie. Growth deals should be constructed in a way that allows both rural and urban areas to be included at every stage.
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
1. What steps the Crown Prosecution Service has taken in the last two years to ensure that prosecutors are able to prosecute stalking and harassment cases more effectively.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Robert Buckland)
The Crown Prosecution Service has taken a number of steps recently to ensure that that can happen. A joint police and CPS protocol on stalking was launched in September last year, and CPS legal guidance was revised to reflect that development. In addition, prosecutors have been given training on the new stalking offences.
Caroline Dinenage
Can my hon. and learned Friend confirm that stalking and harassment online is taken as seriously as other forms of such behaviour?
The Solicitor-General
Yes, I can confirm that. Recent changes in the law that were introduced by the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015 will make it easier to prosecute those serious cases by extending the time limits on summary-only communications offences, and by allowing cases covered by section 1 of the Malicious Communications Act 1988 to be dealt with in the Crown court.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
I am pleased that this question has been asked, but I am rather concerned about the lumping together of general harassment and stalking. The Solicitor-General knows full well that stalking is a distinct offence and should be treated accordingly.
The Solicitor-General
The right hon. Gentleman is right to raise that issue. I pay tribute to him, because this is probably the last occasion on which he will be able to raise such matters here. I am sure that he will continue to campaign in whatever capacity his party allows him to, and I wish him well.
In the year to last December, 818 stalking offences had been brought to prosecution. We now need to calculate the proportion of successful prosecutions, and I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that more work will be done through extrapolation from those figures.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
The Crown Prosecution Service, which, after all, is a demand-led organisation, has experienced a 28% cut in its funding since 2010, which equates to £200 million a year. Does the Solicitor-General think that that is helping or hindering the prosecution of stalking and harassment cases?
The Solicitor-General
As I said a moment ago, had it not been for the Government’s changes in the law, we would not be bringing all those extra cases to court. The CPS is performing well against 11 of its 12 key performance measures, and is rising to the challenge. Conviction rates are broadly the same as they were five years ago, and I think that that should be met with encouragement rather than despair.
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
2. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the current Crown Prosecution Service guidelines on prosecuting cases of child sexual abuse.
The Attorney-General (Jeremy Wright)
In October 2013, the CPS issued guidelines setting out a new approach to child sexual abuse cases. Steps to be taken include the use of specialist prosecutors, the provision of dedicated CPS units to manage such cases, and the application of a new approach to considering evidence in such cases. In 2013-14, the number of child abuse prosecutions rose by 440 to 7,998, and the conviction rate was 76.2%, which is the highest that it has ever been.
Meg Munn
I welcome the Attorney-General’s reply. As he will know, prosecuting sexual offences is very difficult, and such prosecutions are particularly difficult for children. When the guidelines were introduced, it was feared that not all the measures involved would be properly introduced everywhere. What steps are being taken to review the process and keep track of what is happening, so that there can be a proper evaluation and good practice can be built on?
The Attorney-General
The hon. Lady is right to ask that question. We do keep such matters under review, and as she will appreciate, a large part of the process involves ensuring that prosecutors are properly trained and encouraged to do what the guidelines say they should do. We will ensure that they receive that ongoing training and updating, but I think that the signs are encouraging. I think that we are doing more of the things that we need to do to ensure that child witnesses, in particular, are accommodated properly in the court system, so that they can give the best evidence that they are able to give.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
In this very difficult field, does the Attorney-General recognise that the Crown Prosecution Service must learn some lessons from its mistakes, but also that its independent ability to prosecute without fear or favour must not be called into question?
The Attorney-General
I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. It is right that, where mistakes are made, they should be learned from, but of course, as he will appreciate, it does not follow that cases that result in an acquittal should never have been brought as prosecutions in the first place. That is not the way the system works; it is important to make that point. It is also right, as he has heard me say before, that regardless of what someone does for a living or their position in society, if a prosecution is appropriate, according to the evidence and the tests that are applied, it should be brought.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Minister believe that it would be better for the CPS to have clear guidelines? Should not statutory rape, which ends at 12 at the moment, be extended to a higher age, or should we even consider raising the age of consent to 17?
The Attorney-General
The hon. Gentleman asks some interesting questions to which, fortunately, it is not for me to determine the answers, but I am sure that he will appreciate that it is important that wherever the boundaries are set, the CPS prosecutes under the law as it stands as effectively as it can, and we must do all we can to ensure that it does.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
It is clear from the evidence from Rotherham and the inquiries that have been conducted that what the victims of child sexual abuse said was not accepted; they were not believed by the authorities and they were not supported by the CPS. What measures can my right hon. and learned Friend take to ensure that victims are given priority in the system, and are believed and supported all the way through?
The Attorney-General
My hon. Friend puts his finger on one of the substantial problems here. It is important—this is part of the guidelines I described earlier—that prosecutors address their preconceptions and prejudices as to how young people who come forward with these allegations should or should not have been behaving, and how they should or should not react if they had been subject to those kinds of abuse. We also need to ensure that prosecutors challenge prejudices and preconceptions in court, so that in the presentation of prosecutions, evidence is called, where appropriate, to challenge those, and so that judges say what they need to say to juries to make sure that no one proceeds under a false preconception.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
3. What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on implementation of the UK’s domestic and international legal obligations on human rights.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
6. What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on implementation of the UK’s domestic and international legal obligations on human rights.
The Attorney-General (Jeremy Wright)
I have regular discussions with colleagues about a large number of important issues. As the House knows, by convention advice the Law Officers may have given is not disclosed outside Government. However, domestic and international human rights remain an important aspect of our law and key considerations in the Law Officers’ work.
Jeremy Corbyn
Since human rights is an international issue and an international obligation, and rights are universal, will the Attorney-General take this opportunity to say he has no intention of withdrawing from the European convention on human rights and thus undermining the whole cause of human rights and justice across the continent and diminishing Britain’s ability to criticise anybody else for human rights abuses?
The Attorney-General
As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, I make a distinction between what is in the convention, which I wholly support, and the interpretation of the convention given by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, with which I have some disagreement, and I do not think we should confuse the two. Neither do I believe that it is axiomatic that the only way to have a good record on human rights is to be a member of the European convention on human rights and a signatory to it. Countries such as New Zealand, Australia and Canada, none of which, obviously, are signatories to this document, all have a very good record.
Similarly, it is not right to assume that countries that are members of the European convention on human rights have a spotless human rights record. That clearly is not the case either; one need only look at some of the countries that are signatories to see that. Membership of the convention is neither necessary nor sufficient for a country to have a good human rights record, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that a future Conservative Government will be utterly committed to the maintenance of human rights, both domestically and abroad.
Mr Hanson
I know the Attorney-General’s primary job is to advise the Government, but on this occasion, just for old time’s sake, could he advise me? Given the Conservative party’s plan to scrap the Human Rights Act 1998, what rights do my constituents currently have that they will not have under the next Government if the Conservatives are elected?
The Attorney-General
What I believe—and what I suspect many of our constituents believe—is that human rights are important, but that it should be our courts that adjudicate on such questions rather than the Court in Strasbourg. It is extremely important to recognise that the Court in Strasbourg has given rulings suggesting that responsibility for some matters that the right hon. Gentleman and I would agree should be determined by Parliament in this country should be accrued to that Court in Strasbourg. That is simply wrong. He knows that, and I know that. The other thing that he knows, as a member of the Opposition home affairs team and a former Minister in the Home Office, is that it has been extremely difficult to deport those who create a real threat to the British people, because of their abuse of human rights laws. We intend to do something about that, but it appears that his party does not.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it would be prudent to revert to the situation that we had before the Human Rights Act was passed, in which a court case could be referred to the European Court of Human Rights, and the ruling could then be applied to the law of the land?
The Attorney-General
I certainly think that the judgments of the Court in Strasbourg will be looked at by our courts in the circumstances that my hon. Friend describes, and that they will no doubt take note of some of them. I do not think it right, however, that the courts in this country should be obliged to take account of the judgments of the Strasbourg Court, and that is what we would change. It is perfectly reasonable for the courts in this country to look at judgments not only from Europe but from other jurisdictions, but it should not be obligatory for them to do so, and that is what we would change.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
We need clarification on this point, because the Government’s position on human rights is chaotic. We know that the Law Officers are at loggerheads on this issue, and that the very sensible former Attorney-General, the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), was sacked in the Prime Minister’s massacre of the moderates because of his “poor” human rights stance. The Minister knows, however, that the European Court declares more than 98% of claims against the UK to be without merit, so why will he not celebrate the excellent Human Rights Act and commend Strasbourg for its common-sense decisions in most of those cases?
The Attorney-General
The hon. Gentleman seems to be inviting me to accept that it is fine to have a power that one should not have, so long as one does not use it all the time. That is simply not the position that we should be in. He is, of course, right to suggest that this is an important subject, and it will be an important subject in 44 days’ time when the British people will make a judgment on it. It would be useful to know whether Labour is utterly content with the state of human rights law in this country and would make no changes to it whatever. If that is Labour’s view, as it seems to be, the public need to understand that, come election day.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
4. What steps the Crown Prosecution Service is taking to provide greater assistance to vulnerable witnesses and to support them better in giving evidence in court.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Robert Buckland)
The Crown Prosecution Service is committed to improving the experience at court for all witnesses, and CPS staff work closely with the police and the voluntary sector to ensure that vulnerable witnesses are supported through the criminal justice system. Special measures such as the use of intermediaries or screens in court can also be applied to provide greater support for witnesses who give evidence.
Andrew Bridgen
Does the Minister agree that there is a clear need for children and other vulnerable witnesses to have the ability to give their evidence away from court, to ensure that as many prosecutions as possible can progress?
The Solicitor-General
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, and I am encouraged by the work that has been done in the pilot courts in Leeds, Kingston and Liverpool on the use of section 28 provisions to allow the cross-examination of children and young people away from court. I very much hope that that will become the norm as soon as possible.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
In the light of the Eleanor de Freitas case, will the Solicitor-General review the guidance to ensure that the provision of support and counselling services to vulnerable people is not removed abruptly?
The Solicitor-General
That was a particularly sensitive and difficult case that, as the hon. Lady knows, was the subject of careful consideration and reconsideration. We must avoid a sudden cut-off of support and help. I know that police family liaison officers do a huge amount of work before and after cases, and I would like to ensure that that sort of work continues, particularly in sensitive cases such as the one that she has raised.
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
5. What steps he has taken to promote pro bono work among members of the legal profession.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Robert Buckland)
The Attorney-General and I are the pro bono champions for the Government, and we are helped in this work by two pro bono co-ordinating committees, which bring together the leading organisations dedicated to the delivery of pro bono legal representation, both here and abroad. We took part in a wide range of events during national pro bono week last November, and we will take part in further events this year.
Sheryll Murray
What assistance can my hon. and learned Friend offer constituents of mine on limited incomes to get legal advice that they need?
The Solicitor-General
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. The national pro bono website, www. nationalprobonocentre.org.uk, gives information on a wide range of organisations that offer pro bono legal assistance. Of course, the local citizens advice bureau is a very good gateway through which her constituents can obtain more specialist legal services.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
7. What recent steps the Crown Prosecution Service has taken to ensure that prosecutors are able to prosecute cases of domestic abuse more effectively.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Robert Buckland)
The Director of Public Prosecutions has announced new guidance on the handling of cases of domestic abuse, and it was published on 30 December. That guidance deals with the handling of all aspects of domestic abuse and offending, including the many ways in which abusers can control, coerce and psychologically abuse their victims. The CPS has contributed to the development of the new domestic abuse offence of coercive controlling behaviour, which was introduced in the Serious Crime Act 2015.
Mark Pawsey
With organisations in my constituency such as Warwickshire Domestic Violence Support Services and RoSA—Rape or Sexual Abuse Support—in Rugby doing great work supporting victims, the number of referrals across the country of domestic violence allegations is at its highest ever recorded. What action is being taken to make sure that more of these cases that are coming to light are being prosecuted?
The Solicitor-General
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question, and I pay tribute to those organisations in his constituency, which do so much to protect women and families from the scourge of domestic abuse. Last year, the CPS charged in 72,905 domestic violence cases referred to it by the police, which is the highest volume and proportion ever recorded—it is a 21% rise from the previous year. It is anticipated that the CPS will be dealing with up to 20,000 more domestic violence cases than two years ago.
Sir Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
8. How many prosecutions have been initiated by the Serious Fraud Office under the Bribery Act 2010.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Robert Buckland)
The Serious Fraud Office has initiated prosecutions against three individuals under the Bribery Act 2010, with two having been convicted.
Sir Hugh Bayley
I spent more than 10 years arguing for a radical change in the law on bribery, which was passed as the 2010 Act, with all-party support, just before the last election. The OECD, which has criticised us in the past for not doing enough to implement its convention, thinks it is important that from time to time cases are brought before the courts. Will the Solicitor-General assure me that the SFO has adequate resources to investigate and prosecute cases of this kind?
The Solicitor-General
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I pay tribute to him, as he is retiring from this place, for his assiduous work on this and other issues over the years. He rightly says that it is important for the reputation of this country that cases are brought, under either the new Act or the old Act. We must not forget that we have had a number of key successes in non-Bribery Act cases that predate the passage of this legislation, most notably the prosecution of Smith & Ouzman Ltd for bribes paid to Kenyan officials in relation to the electoral processes. We have had a number of successes, which we should celebrate.
Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
Does the Solicitor-General agree that part of the SFO’s success in recent years in these matters stems from the rigour that David Green, QC, has brought as its director, because of his experience in private practice? Is that perhaps a lesson for future appointments to other senior prosecuting bodies?
The Solicitor-General
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that, and I join him in thanking the director for the hard work he is putting in to ensure that the SFO performs well and improves its progress. On the previous question on resources, may I just say that the availability of blockbuster funding means that the SFO has the flexibility to prosecute cases as and when they arise and meet the threshold test?
Progress of the Affordable Homes Bill
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I wish to present a petition that was the product of constituents’ astonishment, indeed anger, that the House of Commons could vote by an overwhelming majority on 5 September to support my private Member’s Bill to scrap the Government’s under-occupancy penalty, otherwise known as the bedroom tax, and to improve opportunities for affordable homes—the vote was 306 to 231, at column 603 of Hansard, and these were eligible votes in the House of Commons—but could then effectively have its will defied by one party of the coalition that acted in a high-handed manner in refusing to grant the Bill the necessary money resolution. To any objective observer—and my constituents are paragons of objectivity—that represents a clear abuse of Executive power. The petition is signed by over 1,000 constituents, but I have also received many hundreds of letters, e-mails and messages of support and encouragement, with none opposed to the measure. Such a Bill shall not be stopped in the next Parliament.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of the UK,
Declares that the Petitioners support the Affordable Homes Bill sponsored by Andrew George, further that the Petitioners believe that the bill should be allowed to progress and further that a petition in the St Ives constituency calling for the bill to be allowed to progress was signed by 1072 individuals.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to bring forward a money resolution to allow the Affordable Homes Bill to make progress.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001466]
Expansion of St Joseph's Catholic Primary School, Barnoldswick
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
This is a petition to the House of Commons of the residents of Barnoldswick—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
There is no need to hurry the matter unduly. May I say what a pleasure it is to see the hon. Gentleman back in the Chamber and in very good voice? As I say, these matters do not need to be unduly hurried, but we all look forward to his petition.
Andrew Stephenson
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of Barnoldswick,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that St Joseph’s Catholic Primary School, West Close Road, Barnoldswick is over-subscribed and wishes to expand to meet the needs of the local area, including a growing Catholic community.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to support the St Joseph’s Catholic Primary School’s proposed extension.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001471]
Planning permission for McDonald's in Kenton (Newcastle)
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
I wish to present a petition on behalf of my constituents in Newcastle. A similar petition online—at www.mcdonaldspetition.co.uk—has collected 860 signatures so far. The petition calls on this House to listen to the democratic will of local people and the council, who have rejected a planning application for a McDonald’s drive-through in Kenton, Newcastle, and urge the Government to reject any appeal that may be considered by a Minister. The restaurant would be opposite Europe’s largest secondary school—which is also my old school—on a busy main road and a minute’s walk from another similar restaurant. The council has rejected the application, but an appeal was lodged on the last available day to the Planning Inspectorate, which takes the decision away from local people.
The petition states:
The Humble Petition of the organisers of the website mcdonaldspetition.co.uk
Sheweth that the Petitioners are campaigning to promote and strengthen local democratic oversight of the planning system; further that local people in Newcastle have rejected planning permission for a McDonald’s fast food restaurant opposite a school in Kenton and further that an appeal has been made to the Planning Inspector.
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House will urge the Government to listen to the democratic will of local people in Newcastle and duly reject the appeal to the Planning Inspector for planning permission for a McDonald’s fast food restaurant in Kenton.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c.
[P001470]
Eligibility of Members to vote on certain issues in the House of Commons
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
It is a pleasure to be joined by so many colleagues to present petitions from up and down the country calling for English votes on English laws. Petitions have also been raised by many dozens of other colleagues and constituencies. In just a few weeks, there will be a general election at which we will face a decisive choice on a number of important issues, one of which is whether the people of England should be allowed to determine their own destiny in areas where decisions have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament, or whether MPs representing Scottish constituencies should be allowed to continue to decide issues that will have no effect whatsoever on their constituents.
We have set out proposals to ensure basic democratic fairness. The Opposition are, of course, silent. They want to maintain the flexibility to strike a cosy deal, backed by nationalist MPs who want to tear our country apart, so this is an issue they would prefer to avoid. That will not satisfy the thousands of people who have signed this petition and whose voice is heard tonight. I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for allowing us time to present the petition. As you have said, I will read it out in full so other colleagues do not need to do so. I wish to present a petition on behalf of those in the Beverley and Holderness constituency who want to ensure English votes for English laws.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of Beverley and Holderness,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that when Parliament makes decisions affecting only the people of England or England and Wales then those decisions should be made only by the Members of Parliament elected to represent England or England and Wales.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons creates fairness in the devolution settlement by ensuring decisions having a separate and distinct effect on England or England and Wales, are only decided by the Members of Parliament elected to represent England or England and Wales.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001451]
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) on behalf of my constituents in Daventry. I also have a similar one, which I carried out online, with about 300 signatures. This is the second petition that I have presented on this issue since I became a Member of Parliament. It is a very strong and current theme in the pubs and on the streets of the villages in my constituency, so it gives me great pleasure to present this petition.
The Petition of the residents of Daventry.
[P001439]
Simon Reevell (Dewsbury) (Con)
I, too, rise to present a petition in the same terms on behalf of the people of Dewsbury. It is no more and no less than a request that such matters are dealt with fairly from the perspective of those of us who live in England, who want no more than that enjoyed by those who live elsewhere in the United Kingdom.
The Petition of the residents of Dewsbury.
[P001454]
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) on behalf of the constituents of Newton Abbot. English laws must be made only by English MPs: this is the heart of democracy.
The Petition of residents of the constituency of Newton Abbot.
[P001457]
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
I rise to present a similar petition in the same terms on behalf of the residents of North East Hertfordshire, who feel most strongly about this issue.
The Petition of residents of North East Hertfordshire.
[P001458]
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) on behalf of my constituents in Crawley, who believe that they should have equal weight in decisions that affect their lives in England. It is my pleasure to present the petition.
The Petition of residents of Crawley.
[P001459]
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms on behalf of the residents of Redditch County. They do not want any more powers transferred away from this House, and want to ensure that English Members of Parliament are able to take decisions that only affect them.
The Petition of residents of Redditch County.
[P001465]
Sir Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con)
On behalf of my constituents in Rutland and Melton, I present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart). We believe in a balanced and fair constitution that offers English votes for English laws.
The Petition of the residents of Rutland and Melton.
[P001468]
Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in precisely the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart). It contains 276 signatures from the residents of Hornchurch and Upminster.
The Petition of the residents of Hornchurch and Upminster.
[P001469]
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms on behalf of my constituents in Congleton, who consider this to be a matter of fairness and justice for themselves and all the people of England.
The Petition of the residents of Congleton.
[P001472]
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms on behalf of the residents of the faithful city of Worcester. It has been signed by more than 400 residents and 100 residents have signed a similar petition online.
The Petition of the residents of Worcester.
[P001473]
Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart). It has been signed by many constituents in Southend West who are incensed about the unfair voting arrangements for English Members of Parliament.
The Petition of the residents of Southend West.
[P001475]
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
I would like to associate myself with the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) and to present a petition in the same terms on behalf of my constituents in South East Cornwall.
The Petition of the residents of South East Cornwall.
[P001476]
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) on behalf of my constituents in York Outer. It calls for English votes for English laws to deliver fairness for all.
The Petition of the residents of York Outer.
[P001477]
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
I, too, rise to present a petition in the same terms as that laid out by my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart). I present it on behalf of my constituents in Gosport, who are so frustrated by the injustice of this situation and request English votes for English laws.
The Petition of the residents of Gosport.
[P001478]
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
I rise to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of Cleethorpes in the same terms as those of my hon. Friends. My constituents feel strongly that this constitutional anomaly wants correcting. They believe in English votes for English laws.
The Petition of the residents of Cleethorpes.
[P001479]
Rural Payments Agency: Basic Payment Scheme
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make a statement on the Government’s failure to deliver a digital-only system for processing the basic payment scheme via the Rural Payments Agency, and what assurances she can give to UK farmers that the failure will not result in significant delays to the receipt of their basic payment?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice)
I am grateful for this opportunity to update the House. This is the first year of the new basic payment scheme. As the new common agricultural policy is so complex, we needed to invest in a new computer system to administer claims; the existing single payment scheme computer system would not have been able to cope. The new system included a core, which was there to process data and which was based on an existing system used in other countries, and a portal that enabled farmers to register their details and to map land passes.
The core of the new rural payment system is working well. To date, more than 80% of farm businesses in England have registered successfully on it, so they can submit a BPS claim. We continue to engage and encourage farm businesses to register online as soon as possible. However, there have been performance issues with the online interface that enables farmers to input the data directly, especially when it comes to mapping land passes. We have been working to address those issues since February. Our priority has always been to ensure that farmers can submit their claims by the deadline. That is why we have made adjustments to our plans. The RPA is now offering farmers and their agents the option of using existing paper-based forms to finalise their claims. Information from those forms will then be input by the RPA on to the system.
There are two new ways in which farmers can complete their claims. Farm businesses with little change to their land will be fast-tracked by the RPA. In particular, those who predominantly have permanent pasture will not need to map those details. They will receive an e-mail in April that summarises the land and entitlement information already held on record, together with simple instructions on completing their claim by e-mail. The RPA has identified approximately 39,000 farmers who fall into that category.
Secondly, farm businesses that need to map new features can use blank existing forms to prepare their claims before they are sent a pre-populated form in early April. They can submit their claim by e-mail, by post, or through an RPA drop-in centre, and we have 50 of those now established. Separately, all agents will have received maps of their clients’ land from the RPA by the end of next week. Those dealing with the most complex cases will be offered additional support. The RPA is also exploring the option of giving some agents direct access to the system so that they can make applications quickly.
This is a pragmatic response that applies to the application process in 2015. It means that we will be able to make payments to farmers when the payment window opens in December 2015. All data entered so far on the rural payment scheme system have been saved and will be used by the RPA to complete farmers’ claims this year.
In addition, a number of other EU countries have had difficulties in getting their IT systems in place this year to process this first year of a new, more complicated CAP. In parallel, the Commission has offered an option to member states, allowing them to extend to 15 June the deadline for basic payment scheme applications. That was discussed on 16 March in a Council meeting, which I attended, and it was confirmed by the Commission on 19 March.
In conclusion, the core of the new system works and we are not abandoning anything. We will continue to use it and it will enable claims to be processed efficiently this year and will be the basis for service improvements in future years. However, the action that we announced last week will ensure that farmers can submit their applications successfully this year, and it has been welcomed by stakeholders and those in the industry.
Given the imminence of the general election, I am keen that we communicate with the Opposition on this issue and keep them in touch. I have written to the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) explaining the current situation in detail, and, as she knows, I have offered to meet her, with Mark Grimshaw, to discuss the matter further. Our offices are in discussion about a date for that meeting, which I intend to happen this week. I am also more than happy to keep Opposition Front-Bench Members updated on the changes in the weeks ahead.
Maria Eagle
Many farmers will be depending on the basic payment scheme to keep their business afloat and on prompt payment to maintain vital cash flow. Given the seriousness of this matter, I am astounded that the Under-Secretary of State has been sent to this House to deal with it. Where is the Secretary of State? As well as refusing to answer questions on BBC’s “Farming Today”, she now appears to be running away from her duties to this House. Let us hope that the Select Committee has better luck getting her to appear tomorrow.
The disastrous late admission from Ministers that the mapping functionality of the Government’s digital by default system for making payments to farmers does not work is a serious blow to hard-working farmers, not least because the Secretary of State said on 11 March, in evidence to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee:
“The maps are up and running.”
We have all heard rumours for weeks, but the Government have blithely continued, heads in the sand, to insist that everything will work. As recently as 12 March, at the last DEFRA oral questions, the Under-Secretary of State was saying that his only plan was to make the system work; there was no contingency. As a consequence, many farmers who have endured incredible frustration trying to use the system to map the land, or have paid agents to do it for them, now face having to do it all again on paper, and at one of the busiest times of the farming year. How frustrating and wasteful of time and hard-earned money.
Will the Under-Secretary of State please tell the House why Ministers have repeatedly given assurances that the system works which have turned out not to be accurate? Will those farmers who have paid agents to make their claims online be compensated for now having to pay them again to submit the same information? It has previously been insisted that the scheme is too complex for paper. Now we have reverted to paper, so is there an increased risk of errors, which could result in penalties? Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that in future farmers will be able to access and use the information they have already submitted, or will they be forced to start again?
On Saturday, Mark Grimshaw, the chief executive of the Rural Payments Agency, referred to the fact that the EU payment window is open until the end of June. He said:
“I am absolutely confident that we will pay within the payment window.”
For farmers expecting their payments in December, that is far from reassuring. It is disastrous. Will the one-month delay in the deadline for applications cause a delay in payments? Mr Grimshaw has said:
“It will be foolhardy of me to commit to anything in December”.
What does the Minister expect farmers to do for cash flow while they wait for their cheques?
When did Ministers first hear that the digital by default system they chose to insist upon would not work? Why did they not implement contingency arrangements sooner, to save farmers the time and expense now wasted? How much money has been wasted? Finally, can the Under-Secretary of State assure the House that Ministers will now remove their heads from the sand, rise above the chaos and confusion their incompetence has caused, and come clean to the House: will the mapping functionality ever work, or will it need to be completely replaced?
George Eustice
I will begin by reminding the Opposition of their own record on the Rural Payments Agency. Let us not forget that in 2005, the system they introduced led to £600 million of disallowance for this country. Payments were regularly more than a year late—hardly any farmers ever received their payments on time. It took a Conservative-led Government coming to power in 2010 to sort it out.
The hon. Lady asks whether everything will have to be resubmitted on paper. As I made clear in my opening statement, for those farmers who have managed to enter their mapping details, the information has been recorded; they will not need to start again. She says that we have always maintained that the new CAP is too complex to be processed on paper alone and needs a computer. That remains the position. As I said in my opening statement, that is why we will still use the core of the system to process the data. We have, for example, coefficients on the areas farmers have of broad beans, leguminous vegetables, hedges and so on. It is complex, and that is why we are not removing a digital approach, but simply having RPA officers enter the information on behalf of the farmer. This is not a paper-only system; it is a paper-assisted system.
The hon. Lady said that Mr Grimshaw, the chief executive of the RPA, had said that he could not give guarantees about the payment window. Having worked with Mr Grimshaw for 18 months, I can say that he is cautious and he never gives guarantees. In all the time I have known him he has never said anything other than that we will make our payments within the payment window. In the past couple of years well over 95% of farmers have been paid on the first day of banking and paid early. I am confident, as I said, that once we have the information in and it has been processed, we will have a system in place that can deal with it.
The hon. Lady mentioned contingency plans. We have adapted our plans and acted to ensure that farmers can get their applications in time this year. That is the responsible thing to do. It would have been wrong to abandon the system and prematurely abandon attempts to sort out the portal, particularly the part that deals with land mapping. We have acted in time to ensure that farmers can get their applications in place, and the steps that we have taken have been welcomed by the farming industry.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice), who carried out fantastic work in turning around the mess that he inherited in the Department and sorting this out. Will my hon. Friend help me with one detail? The mapping that we are talking about is often very detailed—an electric fence here, a bit of undergrowth there. Would it be possible to pay farmers on account as partial payment this year, with the amounts being adjusted in subsequent years’ payments?
George Eustice
Provided an application is received by the deadline, there is provision in the EU regulations for it to be amended for a period of weeks after that. My hon. Friend’s suggestion of a payment on account while an application has not been received would not fit within the EU regulations, but we have made progress in getting that deadline extended to 15 June, and I have asked the RPA to take a sympathetic view towards farmers who are struggling to get their application in and who may want to amend those details after their form has been submitted.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
When the Paymaster General boasted to the public services 2030 conference just 20 days ago that under this Administration the words “Government” and “IT” no longer induce visions of failed IT projects, is it safe to assume that he did not know about this situation?
George Eustice
As I pointed out, we have not abandoned anything. The core of the system is working and will still be used. What we are doing is ensuring that the information provided, in many cases on paper, to the RPA will be entered by digitisers working for the RPA, but it will still go into an electronic system.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend regret the Department saying that there was no need for a contingency plan? Will he reassure the House that there cannot be a digital-only system where farmers do not have access to broadband? What are the Government doing to speed up the situation for farmers living in areas with less than 20% and sometimes less than 40% coverage by broadband to ensure that the core system will work next year, as we were assured by the RPA in the Select Committee that the system had been tried and tested across the European Union? Will he confirm that the extension has been agreed for payments to be entered by 15 June?
George Eustice
I hope that my hon. Friend will understand that our plans have always been adaptable. We have always had the ability to change plans and our priority is to ensure that every farmer can get their application in by the deadline. That is why we announced what we did last week. It is not necessary to announce one’s contingency plans until one is ready to use them. That does not mean that we had not thought about this and that we did not have the ability to keep those plans adaptable.
On my hon. Friend’s wider point about an internet-only or digital-only application, we have 50 digital support centres that will help farmers to do this, and we are setting up help centres in farmers markets and everywhere we can to ensure that they are able to get their application in on time. We have ensured as well that the system can work at relatively low broadband speeds, so I believe we have addressed the issues that she raised, but in the short term farmers can submit their application this year in paper-based form.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Why is it that every time this Government mess things up they send a junior Minister to the Dispatch Box—the Secretary of State is nowhere to be seen—to blame someone else? I happen to be an avid fan of the BBC’s “Farming Today”—almost as avid a fan as I am of Clare Balding’s “Ramblings”, as those who follow me on Twitter will know—and the fact is that had “Farming Today” not exposed the deep concern in the farming community about this mess, we would not have had this urgent question today.
George Eustice
That is simply not true. We made our decision when we realised that a software update the weekend before last had not worked as we had hoped. It had nothing to do with any media coverage; the media have told us nothing that we were not already aware of. The Secretary of State and I work as a team, so I am here today and she will be appearing before the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee tomorrow. We have been working closely together on this and both regularly meet the RPA to discuss these challenges.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
I remind my hon. Friend that until the coalition Government sorted out earlier problems at the RPA, I was having to deal with hundreds of cases of farmers in my constituency who were affected and to make representations on their behalf. Has he noted the fact that we will soon be in a six-week election period during which none of us, whether or not we are standing for re-election, will have the status of a Member of Parliament, so he is likely to receive representations during that period from extremely worried farmers?
George Eustice
The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that although we will all cease to be Members of Parliament next Monday, I will remain the farming Minister and the Secretary of State will remain the Secretary of State until a new Government are formed, and I can reassure him that I will be having regular telephone conferences with the RPA and attending meetings to discuss and monitor the situation. We will keep a very close eye on this indeed.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
I assume that departmental officials produced a risk assessment for Ministers when the move to this system was proposed, so can the Minister today advise the House on what he thinks are the projected costs to be incurred by DEFRA and the RPA, and indeed by farmers and landholders, as a result of this mess?
George Eustice
It is a matter of record that the project is intended to cost in the region of £154 million. All such projects are monitored by the Major Projects Authority within the Cabinet Office.
Nick Herbert (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
The important thing is that farmers can submit their claims on time and that the Government have rightly taken action to enable them to do so. In learning the lessons, will my hon. Friend recall that a decade ago only 15% of farmers were being paid on time by the Rural Payments Agency? Under this Government, that figure is now 98%, so he should take no lessons from the Labour party.
George Eustice
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right; the Labour party, when in government, allowed chaos to continue year after year. We have acted swiftly to ensure that farmers can get their applications in on time this year.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Obviously there are difficulties with payments across the whole United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Has the Minister had an opportunity to discuss these matters with his counterpart in the Northern Ireland Assembly, for example, and what discussions has he had with the farming unions, which might be able to indicate the best way to ensure that payments are made on time?
George Eustice
On the latter point, all farming unions and representatives and agricultural consultants have welcomed the steps we have taken, because they want to ensure that they can get their applications in on time. I discussed the matter with some colleagues from the devolved Administrations at the European Council last week, and I can confirm that they are all relieved that the Commission has extended the deadline.
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
Can my hon. Friend reassure farmers in the remote parts of my constituency by confirming that they will get the support they need, whether on paper or through access to online services, to avoid the disaster they faced under the system introduced by the previous Government?
George Eustice
As my hon. Friend says, we have acted swiftly to ensure that we can send maps and paper applications to ensure that all farmers can get their applications in on time. We have a network of 50 digital support centres to help farmers with the registration process, because we still want them to register with the online system.
Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)
Amid all the arguments, is it not simply vital to recognise that the important thing is that farmers get the money that is due to them when they need it? Echoing the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), there is the consolatory thought that that will allow broadband roll-out to catch up.
George Eustice
As my right hon. Friend knows, this Government have spent over £700 million on rural broadband, and we are still looking at other options to reach the remaining 5% who still need it. He makes a good point. The focus for me this year is to ensure that farmers can get their applications in on time, which is why we have taken action. Unlike the Labour party, which let chaos continue for years, we acted swiftly to ensure that we could deal with the problem as soon as it was identified.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
I welcome the extension of the deadline to 15 June. However, bearing in mind that too often deadlines are not met, can the Minister reassure me that our farmers will not be fined if they do not meet the deadline and that, whatever happens, the situation will be resolved before anyone talks about being fined, or of the country being fined, and will the European Union fine us if we do not meet certain deadlines?
George Eustice
As my hon. Friend might know, the deadline of 15 May is written in EU regulations and the Commission has agreed to extend it to 15 June. Under the regulations, farmers are given a period of 21 days during which a late application can be accepted. Until last week it was not clear whether the Commission would agree to an extension, although it had indicated that it might, so our plans were made on the basis that we would be aiming to meet the deadline of 15 May. Having that additional month gives us some more leeway, which is obviously welcome.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that the over-complicated CAP system demonstrates that this can affect all member states in a very detrimental way? Is that something that we should be renegotiating as part of our new deal with the European Union?
George Eustice
My hon. Friend makes a good point. We are already in discussions with Commissioner Hogan about the interpretation of existing regulations for next year to ensure that we can get some simplification. In the mid-term review we will be pressing for further simplification of the greening rules. For the new CAP, which will take effect post 2020, we are already looking at radical reform to make it simpler and make more common sense.
Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)
I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Farmers understand better than anybody that things can go wrong, but what they cannot tolerate is damage to their business. Can the Minister give me a categorical assurance that if mistakes are made on these forms, the farmers will be corrected, not punished?
George Eustice
I have had that conversation with the RPA. One of my jobs as farming Minister is to sign off some of the appeals that reach the final process, and I can tell my hon. Friend that I am very challenging on those and have asked the RPA to adopt the most sympathetic approach possible. All information that farmers provide on paper will ultimately be entered by digitisers working for the RPA, and they will carry out checks to ensure that the forms they are entering reflect what farmers intended to put on them.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I congratulate the Minister on taking decisive action and avoiding the disaster that the previous Government oversaw in 2006-07, when only 15% of farmers were paid on time. I congratulate him on listening to the National Farmers Union, the Country Land and Business Association and other groups that have made representations and on making sure that we find a system that operates and allows farmers to be paid.
George Eustice
My hon. Friend makes a good point; the Labour party did not grip the problems with the RPA, so there was over £600 million of disallowance and farmers were often paid over a year late—as he said, only 15% were paid on time.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister. At least farmers now have certainty and know that they can apply and that they will receive their payments, but can he give an utmost assurance that he will do everything he can to ensure that this delay in applications will not result in any delay in payments?
George Eustice
Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. We will be seeking to ensure that the claims are processed as quickly as possible and paid as speedily as we have demonstrated our ability to do in recent years.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
As the Minister knows, all that farmers in my constituency want is to get their application in on time and to get paid on time so that they can get on with running their business. Is he concerned about errors made this year and the ensuing penalties that we have heard about from other Members? Will farmers still be able to use the online system, or just agents, given that not all farmers have the use of agents?
George Eustice
We are giving some of the larger agents, representing just short of 20,000 farmers, access to the online system. We will not be able to give that access to all agents because of the training required and the time scale needed to enable them to use it. All farmers must still register online, and they will be able to download maps. Those who have simple claims will be able to sign a declaration to say that their land use has not changed and is still simple, such as permanent pasture. I take on board my hon. Friend’s point about errors. As I said, I have been pressing the RPA to take the most generous possible interpretation of the EU regulations. The regulations are clear that where an error is not the farmer’s fault, no penalty can be levelled against them.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
Before he steps down from the House very shortly, I join colleagues in paying tribute to the work of my neighbour, my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice), not only for his work in clearing up the mess that we inherited with the RPA but his wider work on behalf of farmers.
My hon. Friend mentioned the 15 digital centres that are going to provide assistance. Will he update the House on what additional resource allocation will be put in place to help with the bureaucracy and the difficult conversations that farmers may have with helplines?
George Eustice
Yes. We have started to treat these digital centres as drop-in centres so that farmers can drop in on them without an appointment. During this crucial period, we are redeploying staff from DEFRA to the RPA to ensure that the helpline and the digital support centres are fully manned and have the capacity to cope with anything thrown at them.
Falkland Islands Defence Review
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a statement on the Falkland Islands defence review.
Safeguarding our citizens and their way of life remains the most important responsibility of Government and of the Ministry of Defence. In March 2013, the Falkland Islands referendum reaffirmed the islanders’ overwhelming wish to remain British. Of the 92% who voted, 99.8% voted in favour of maintaining their political status as an overseas territory of the United Kingdom. We will always defend the right of the Falkland islanders to determine their own political future.
The Ministry of Defence retains responsibility for the external defence and security of British interests in the south Atlantic, and, to that end, undertakes regular assessments to ensure that we have in place the appropriate defensive capability. In autumn 2013, my predecessor asked officials to undertake a thorough review of the forces we hold on the Falkland Islands and our contingency plans for their defence. The objective was to ensure that our enduring commitment to the defence of the islands is sustained effectively. That review has now been completed.
The review’s conclusions remain operationally sensitive in the light of potential threats, and I hope the House will understand that I cannot disclose much of the detail. However, I can tell the House that we have updated our assessment of any threat to the islands. This includes a consideration of the changes that may arise from the islanders’ plans to develop their economy, including the potential for development of an oil and gas industry. We continue to discuss these issues with the Falkland Islands Government.
I have endorsed the assessment of the Chief of the Defence Staff and the Commander of Joint Forces Command that the current military presence is broadly proportionate to the threats and risks that we face. Our forces in the south Atlantic are entirely defensive, and are at the level required to ensure the defence of the Falkland Islands against any potential threat. However, I have also agreed a number of measures designed to ensure our resilience for the short, medium and longer term. Those measures will include the return of military support helicopters, which were removed in 2006 to support operations in Afghanistan. On current plans, this will involve the deployment of two Chinooks, which will be operational by the middle of next year. This is a significant capability that will provide reactive, 24/7 tactical mobility in order to allow a swift and decisive response to any emerging incidents. The helicopters will also bring a heavy-lift capability and enhance the training opportunities available to the resident infantry company.
We also have plans in place to deliver enhanced operational communications for the headquarters at Mount Pleasant to better enable the sharing of real-time operational data. I can confirm that we will be renewing the ground-based air defence system when Rapier comes out of service at around the end of the decade. We will maintain our commitment to provide a Falkland Islands patrol vessel, currently HMS Clyde. In addition, we intend to carry out a number of projects to replace some of the ageing infrastructure—for example, the refurbishment of Mare harbour and the replacement of the existing power generation systems at Mount Pleasant airfield. A major modernisation of the fuels infrastructure is under way and now nearing completion. In total, we expect to invest up to £180 million in improving and modernising our infrastructure on the islands over the next 10 years.
In addition to the operational improvements I have mentioned, we are taking action to improve the quality of life of those who serve in the Falklands, including planned improvements to accommodation and a new primary school. Although there will be some changes in personnel numbers as the Sea King helicopters are withdrawn and the Chinook force stands up, I have decided that for the foreseeable future we will keep our numbers at around their current levels of about 1,200 personnel, military and civilian. I know the House will want to join me in taking this opportunity to pay tribute to our brave men and women, military and civilian, who leave behind their families and friends for months or years at a time in order to ensure the right of the Falkland islanders to remain British. We will always remember the bravery of the 255 British servicemen who gave their lives for that cause.
I am aware of the close interest that the Defence Committee takes in the Falkland Islands, and of the Committee’s most recent visit there earlier this year. I am grateful for its insights, some of which echo the findings of the review. I wrote earlier today to the Chairman of the Committee.
The review we have undertaken confirms our commitment to the Falkland Islands. We will continue to defend the right of the Falkland islanders to determine their future and maintain their way of life against whatever threats may arise. The review ensures that we will continue to have the right mix of people, equipment and infrastructure to deliver that commitment in the years ahead. The Government are not complacent and we will continue to remain vigilant. However, on the basis of the review and the follow-on measures that I have established, I am satisfied that the Government can be confident in their continued ability to defend the south Atlantic islands. I commend this statement to the House.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
I thank the Defence Secretary for his statement and for advance sight of it.
Let me state at the outset that it is right, on occasions such as this, once again to remember and pay tribute to the courage of the men and women of the armed forces in retaking the Falklands in 1982—in particular, the 255 Britons who made the ultimate sacrifice, and the hundreds of service personnel who were injured, and their families.
We should also remember, as the Secretary of State said, that the views of the Falkland islanders are firmly on the record. Does he agree that the recent referendum was a democratic process overseen by international observers that has again made it clear that the islanders wish to remain British? Our position is clear: the only people to determine the future of the Falkland Islands are the Falkland islanders themselves.
The Government are therefore right in their vow to remain vigilant and committed to the protection of the Falkland islanders at all times. We support the current deployment of assets—Typhoon combat aircraft, Rapier surface-to-air missiles, and about 1,200 troops permanently stationed on the Falklands, supported by visiting Royal Navy warships and attack submarines—as a realistic deterrent to any potential threat to the islands. However, is it not the case that that position should be continuously reviewed and that the Government should remain constantly vigilant for any emerging threats?
For some years, Argentina has been trying to replace its antiquated and increasingly unserviceable fighter fleets with a newer and more capable air frame. Will the Secretary of State therefore say a little more about Russia’s involvement and what conversations he has had with our allies about its role in the region? Will he share his assessment of the actual threat facing the Falklands at the moment and whether it has increased in recent months?
How will the measures that the Secretary of State has announced today be funded? In the context of the spending plan set out in last year’s spending review, it became clear that the Ministry of Defence budget would come under severe pressure and the Chancellor’s Budget did nothing to dispel those concerns, so how will this ongoing commitment be met?
Will the Secretary of State say more about why it was that certain parts of the media were this morning reporting a greater number of troops, yet he has made it clear in his statement that the number will remain at about its current level?
How soon will the missile system be upgraded? Can the Secretary of State guarantee that there will not be any capability gaps between the end of the Rapier and the commencement of the new system? Can he also reassure the House that we have the appropriate number of Typhoons deployed in the Falklands? Is he satisfied that there is an appropriate level of intelligence sharing to ensure that we are able to deploy all our assets effectively? Will the Secretary of State say more about the time scale for modernising the infrastructure of the Falklands, including the harbour?
The involvement of Russia is clearly a worry, and the deterrent of enhanced military capabilities is to be welcomed, but surely we can all agree that the best way forward is diplomacy. What diplomatic activity is taking place, and what discussions has the Secretary of State had with the Foreign Secretary?
Finally, is this not the clearest indication that we need an open debate about the defence and security challenges facing the UK and that the next strategic defence and security review needs to be strategically driven, equipping our armed forces for the challenges of an increasingly unstable and dangerous world, as the Defence Committee has said today?
The will of the people of the Falkland Islands—their right to self-determination, expressed in the recent referendum—must be respected, and Argentina’s transition to democracy should give us some confidence that that will be the case. However, we believe it is prudent to take the measures outlined by the Secretary of State as a proportionate response to the current threat. We believe that these measures should command the support of Members on both sides of the House.
Michael Fallon
I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for his comments and for his broad welcome for the review’s conclusions. I agree with him about the importance of the referendum and its verification and the overwhelming result showing that the islanders want to remain British.
The hon. Gentleman asked a number of specific questions, including about how often we conduct such a review. The last review was conducted in 2008 and this review was set in train in 2013, which is about right as an interval: we should look at the issue every four or five years.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the potential involvement of Russia and press speculation. I am not responsible for speculation in the newspapers about either Russia or, indeed, troop numbers. So far as the threat is concerned, I re-emphasise that the principal threat to the islands remains the unjustified claim of Argentina to ownership of them.
On the budget, I made it clear that the expenditure is a 10-year programme: there will be expenditure of £180 million over the next 10 years. On Rapier, we expect it to go out of service in about 2019 or 2020, and there will be no gap before we introduce its replacement.
The hon. Gentleman asked about diplomatic discussions with Argentina. He will have noticed the presence on the Front Bench of my colleagues from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, who are always ready to talk to Argentina. However, if the discussions are to be about the future of the Falkland Islands, it is very important that representatives of the Falklands Islands Government are present in the room when they take place.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
On behalf of the Defence Committee, I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement on the Falkland Islands. May I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), who led the Committee’s trip to the Falkland Islands, and thank the Secretary of State for taking on board their recommendations?
Michael Fallon
I am grateful to the Chairman of the Defence Committee and I am particularly grateful to those two members of his Committee for undertaking that particular journey. It is not especially easy to visit the Falkland Islands at any time and it obviously involves a commitment of a number of days. We have, of course, reflected on the recommendations my hon. Friend set out in his letter to me.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement and his comments about the right to self-determination for the Falkland islanders. It is very important that we emphasise that. On the £180 million that will be spent, when will the refurbishment of the harbour start and finish?
Michael Fallon
The hon. Gentleman plays a key role on the all-party group on the Falkland Islands and I appreciate the welcome he has given to our findings. The overall programme of modernisation and improvements, which, as I have said, will cost £180 million, will take place over 10 years, but I will get back to the hon. Gentleman with the specific dates of the Mare harbour modernisation.
Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)
May I welcome the statement and endorse the Government’s emphasis on prevention rather than cure, which is surely the right approach? The Secretary of State will be aware of a great deal of speculation about a renewed aerial threat from Argentina in the light of Russian involvement, as referred to by the shadow Defence Secretary. Is he confident that we have enough air defence assets, so that if that did begin to materialise as a tangible threat we would be able to sustain a higher level of air defence over the longer term?
Michael Fallon
I hope I can reassure my hon. Friend, who has served in the Ministry of Defence. Unlike the situation in 1982, we have the airfield, modern Typhoons are deployed there, anti-aircraft systems are in place and we are able, through the airfield, to deploy other aircraft relatively quickly, if necessary.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
This is the first opportunity for us all to put on record our condolences to everybody who has been caught up in the terrible plane crash in France. I am sure that Members on both sides of the House would like our thoughts to be sent to the families of the many people who have died today.
I agree with the Secretary of State about the importance of the right to self-determination and I join him in paying tribute to all those who served in the Falkland Islands, including my colleague Keith Brown, the Scottish veterans Minister, who fought in the Falklands war as a Royal Marine. The UK is the only maritime power without maritime patrol aircraft, which is relevant for territorial home defence and for overseas territories such as the Falklands. Does the Secretary of State agree that MPA should be procured as quickly as possible and enter service as a priority?
Michael Fallon
I am sure the whole House will echo the sympathy the hon. Gentleman has offered to those tragically involved in this morning’s Airbus crash.
On self-determination, as I have said, 99% of the islanders voted yes in the referendum, which is a slightly higher proportion than those who voted yes in the more recent referendum in Scotland. It is probably worth bearing that in mind. On maritime patrol capability, MPA is not the only way of securing some of the necessary surveillance. The previous Government were not able to bring that capability to fruition with the development of the Nimrod aircraft. In fact, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the plane has never actually flown and it was massively over budget and years over time. We will have an opportunity to return to the issue in the SDSR, which will be carried out after the election.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement, which I hope will leave the Argentine Government in absolutely no doubt whatsoever of the determination of the United Kingdom, represented by Members throughout this House, to defend the Falkland Islands from any aggression from Argentina or anywhere else. Does my right hon. Friend agree that his statement illustrates a wide range of military commitments to which the United Kingdom is party, and that those commitments need to be properly resourced, which means that we need to spend at least—possibly more than—2% of GDP on our defence budget?
Michael Fallon
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Of course, such a degree of commitment and deployment of troops and aircraft would not be necessary if we did not have this continuing intimidation from Argentina. If the Argentine Government were able to accept the democratic wishes of the islanders to remain British, none of this would be necessary.
So far as resources generally are concerned, I know my hon. Friend understands that we are able to commit our troops, planes and ships around the globe within the budget we have at the moment. I note what he says about the 2%, and I know that he will join me in being pleased that we are meeting the NATO target this year and that we will go on meeting it next year.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
The Secretary of State said that the principal threat to the Falkland Islands remains from Argentina. Will he say a little more about the role that Russia seems to be playing? If the stories about the leasing of long-range bombers in exchange for beef are true, surely that must feed into a strategic review of the defence of the Falklands more prominently than it seems to be doing at the moment.
Michael Fallon
I have read the same reports as the hon. Lady. I do not think it would be right for me to speculate further on the nature of any particular arrangement between the Governments of Russia and the Argentine. Our job is to make sure that the islands are properly defended and to continue to respect the right of the islanders to determine their own future, and that is what we will do.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
If an Argentine Government were foolish enough to give instructions to a military officer to invade the Falklands—they had better get the message that that would be very foolish— Mount Pleasant airfield and Mare harbour would be vital ground. May I suggest—I am not asking a question, but making a statement with which I hope the Defence Secretary will agree—that the Falkland Islands Government and the Governor are also vital ground, and should be protected as well?
Mr Speaker
Order. I think that counts as a question. The hon. Gentleman is being too hard on himself.
Michael Fallon
I sense that my hon. Friend is inviting me to agree with him, and I do agree with him. The Governor and the Falkland Islands Government are a key part of the democracy that is the Falkland Islands, and a key part of the Falkland islanders’ ability to determine their own future, as they have just done.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I warmly welcome the strength of the Secretary of State’s commitment, including in answering many of the points made by the Select Committee. Incidentally, may we in passing pay tribute to our Clerk, Mr Ian Thomson, who was badly injured during the trip to Argentina?
Has the Secretary of State given any thought to a gap in our capability that is coming up, namely the withdrawal of the Royal Mail steamer St Helena next year? It currently supplies an essential link between the Falklands and St Helena, as well as to Ascension Island. What thought has he given to replacing that important capability?
Michael Fallon
We would certainly like more air links to the Falklands. I shall obviously continue to discuss with my hon. Friends at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office what other opportunities or potential there is for different services to other territories to be jointly linked up.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State referred in a previous answer to the international context. Will he tell us what discussions the Government have recently had with Latin American countries and the United States about these issues, given the unwillingness of the US to support Britain with diplomacy in the past?
Michael Fallon
I am sure that Governments across the region have noted the results of the recent referendum in the Falkland Islands, and that they would respect the right of the Falkland islanders to determine their future. We do have discussions with other Governments in southern and Latin America. I very recently met the Foreign Minister of Brazil, and I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that this subject did not come up.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The size of the Royal Navy has greatly diminished since 1982. Does the Secretary of State agree that countries such as Russia and Argentina tend to respond to the signals we send them? Would it not send a terrible signal to the Argentine Government if we failed to give a commitment to continue to spend at least the NATO-recommended minimum of 2% of GDP on defence throughout the lifetime of the next Parliament?
Michael Fallon
I hope the signal that will go out from the House today—from both sides of the House—will be the signal to the islanders themselves that this Government are determined to ensure their defence for the short, medium and long term, and will always protect their right to determine their future.
My right hon. Friend drew attention to the smaller number of ships. He will of course be aware that the ships we have today are much more powerful than some of the earlier platforms. He will know that we are constructing two new aircraft carriers and building altogether seven new hunter-killer submarines, and that the Prime Minister has recently announced the next phase of the construction of the Type 26 frigate fleet on the Clyde.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Does the Defence Secretary not think it a bit odd that he said nothing in his statement about diplomatic initiatives or relations with other countries, and that only in response to questions from Opposition Members has he even conceded that there have been discussions? Will he be more specific: what political, diplomatic and defence discussions has he had with Brazil, Uruguay or Argentina to reduce tensions and stress in the area, rather than proposing to spend £180 million?
Michael Fallon
As I have told the House, we have close and warm relations with other countries in the region. As I said, I have recently met the Foreign Minister from Brazil, and I and my colleagues continue to meet Ministers from other Governments. There is a standing invitation from the Falkland Islands Government to other Governments in the region to visit the islands for themselves and to understand the islanders’ wish to remain British.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
Typhoon aircraft, which have been mentioned, are built in Warton in my constituency. Will the Secretary of State make sure that, if required, we can send more Typhoons to keep the skies above the Falkland Islands safe?
Michael Fallon
The very direct answer to my hon. Friend is yes. There are more Typhoons available. If more are needed for the defence of the islands, we are ready to send them, and we have Mount Pleasant airfield to receive them there.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
In his statement, the Secretary of State said that our military presence is broadly proportionate to the threats and risks we face. What flexibility is there in our defence preparations for any potential hardening of attitude by Argentina, either unilaterally or with others?
Michael Fallon
We have a number of contingency plans, which we continue to refresh, to deal with any increase in the threat level. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will understand that I am not able to spell them out to the House in public session, but I assure him that those contingency plans exist. We take them out every so often to ensure that they are appropriate to the existing level of threat.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
As has been mentioned, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and I visited the Falklands at the end of January, and our report was sent by the Defence Committee to the Ministry of Defence. For security reasons, I cannot comment on most of our recommendations, but I draw the House’s attention to the £10 million saved by the Royal Engineers with the new accommodation for personnel that they are building at a radar head we visited. May I urge the Secretary of State to use £1 million or so of that saving to prevent false economy savings and ensure that Mare harbour is fit for purpose and compliant with international maritime regulations?
Michael Fallon
I referred specifically to the refurbishment of Mare harbour. I am able to tell my hon. Friend, and the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg), who also asked about this issue, that the programme to develop Mare harbour is expected to be complete by the end of 2017.
Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)
The Secretary of State has given assurances that there will be no capability gap between the end of Rapier and the commencement of the new system. What measures are in place to ensure that that is the case?
Michael Fallon
We have started to place the first contracts for the replacement of the Rapier missile to ensure that there is no gap. The hon. Lady raises an important point. There must be no gap between taking one system out of service and introducing the next. There will be no gap.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the more far-reaching geopolitical issue of the possible involvement of Russia shows why this country must maintain its strong defence force and maintain and renew Trident to ensure that there is a strong deterrent for any world power that may be thinking of getting involved in these things?
Michael Fallon
I agree with my hon. Friend. We are committed to renewing our independent nuclear deterrent. He will recall that this House voted by a majority of 329 as recently as January in favour of renewing our independent nuclear deterrent, with only a handful of Members opposing it. We are committed to that and to maintaining strong defences.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State for Defence knows that I am concerned about the run-down of the UK’s defence forces. However, we are a mature parliamentary democracy, so I hope that the whiff of gunpowder and the sound of sabre-rattling that we have had this morning—[Hon. Members: “Shame!”] I am sorry, but I was in Argentina recently and the people of Argentina are a very fine people. I do not believe that they are looking for conflict. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) mentioned, we should be talking to the Government of Argentina at the most senior diplomatic level, rather than rushing to make precipitous decisions.
Michael Fallon
Let me say as gently as I can to the hon. Gentleman that we have absolutely no quarrel with the people of Argentina—of course not. As he knows, we had to cope in 1982 with the decision of the junta in Argentina to invade the islands. He talks of our responsibility as a mature democracy. It is surely our responsibility to reflect the democratic wishes of the islanders. It is their right to determine their own future and to remain British. Of course, we also want to continue to talk to the Argentine Government about many other matters that lie between us, including developing a stronger commercial relationship.
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
Gosport is the proud home of the Falklands Veterans Foundation. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is right to reassure those proud, brave men, some of whom still bear the scars of the conflict, that we will always fight to defend their legacy, which is the sovereignty of the islands?
Michael Fallon
Absolutely. My hon. Friend is right to remind us that the sacrifice of those who died to fight for the freedom of the Falkland islanders and their right to determine their own future should never be forgotten by the British people or by this House.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
May I return to the point about troop numbers? Will the Secretary of State explain why the media felt able to report this morning that there would be a greater number of troops, when in his statement he made it clear that they would remain at around their current level?
Michael Fallon
I am not responsible for speculation in the media. As the hon. Lady correctly said, I have decided that the current level of around 1,200 military and civilian personnel is about right. The announcement that I have made this afternoon is about the return of the helicopters and a programme of improvements, including the replacement of the Rapier air defence system, of around £180 million over the next 10 years. I hope that sends a signal of reassurance to the islanders.
Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)
I was surprised to receive a book from the ambassador of Argentina explaining that the Falkland islanders should not have the right to self-determination. The Secretary of State can be assured that he will have the support of Conservative Members for 2% of GDP for defence spending or for whatever it takes to ensure that those people do have the right to self-determination.
Michael Fallon
I give my hon. Friend an absolute assurance. Of course, the islanders were present on the islands before Argentina was formed. Their history goes a lot further back. It might be worth his reminding the ambassador of that point when he replies to her to thank her for the book.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
I thank the Defence Secretary for his statement. I reiterate that the Opposition also support the self-determination of the Falkland islanders. Whoever forms the Government after the general election, it is incumbent on them to uphold the basic democratic rights of the people who live on the islands. May I press him further on a point that was made by my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State? Does he feel that there is the appropriate level of intelligence gathering to enable him appropriately to deploy the assets as best he can?
Michael Fallon
I am sorry that I am not able to discuss intelligence gathering. That is an important part of our assessment of the threat to the islands and an important part of the islands’ defence, but I am not able to discuss in detail the arrangements for gathering intelligence about the threat. On the hon. Gentleman’s earlier point, it is important that the message goes out from all parts of the House to the islanders—I thank the shadow Secretary of State again for this—that we respect their right to determine their future and that, their having made that decision in the referendum, we will continue to defend the islands.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the aim of a deterrent is to have sufficient force to meet any threat? Nothing better exemplifies that point than the Falklands war itself, when the decision to save £16 million by withdrawing HMS Endurance led to a war costing billions of pounds and 255 British personnel.
Michael Fallon
As my hon. Friend may know, there was an inquiry into the causes of the war, which was led by Lord Franks. There has been much discussion since of the precise series of events that led up to the war. That is history. Our job is to ensure that the islands are properly defended. I am confident that, following this review, we have the right deployment of troops and the right maritime and air assets in place, ready to be deployed in their defence.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
I commend my right hon. Friend for his steadfast assurance of the right of the Falkland islanders to self-determination. Will he confirm, in response to other questions that have been raised in this House, that that need not prevent us from continuing to try to improve our diplomatic relationships with all countries in the region?
Michael Fallon
Absolutely; it need not. I know that my hon. Friend has a connection with the Patagonian region of the Argentine. We want to have a warmer and closer relationship with the people of the Argentine and their Government. Nothing in what I have announced today should make that any more difficult. As I have made clear again and again, we have to respect the right of the islanders to determine their own future. They determined it in the referendum, and it is our duty to defend the islands.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that the economy of the Falkland Islands would benefit from foreign investment, and that foreign investment will be forthcoming only if we deliver a safe and secure long-term state?
Michael Fallon
I agree with my hon. Friend. The islands welcome and are receiving foreign investment, and I hope that the future of the islands is clear beyond doubt, as well as the ability and commitment of our Government to defend them from any threat that might materialise. That is the basis, I hope, for a more stable future for the islands in which a more diversified economy can flourish, including the development of the oil and gas sector.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
The assurances that the Secretary of State has given today to continue to defend the Falkland Islands will be welcomed by everyone on the islands, and they reflect the resolute determination shown by our former Prime Minister, Lady Thatcher, when she stood at the Dispatch Box 33 years ago to give that same commitment. Does he agree that the threat from Argentina is still very real, and that we must never take down our guard and must always stand up for the freedom of those loyal British subjects of the Falkland Islands?
Michael Fallon
I completely agree that we should not drop our guard, and we are not doing that—if anything, we are reinforcing our guard and the defence of our islands. We have the right to defend the islands, and to defend the right of the islanders to determine their future. This is a defensive arrangement; it is not threatening anybody else.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
Mr Speaker, you and the House may be interested to know that I have a plaque on my wall, signed by my great uncle when he was Speaker, commemorating the gift of a silver ashtray from the peoples and Government of the Falklands on the rebuilding of this Chamber after it had been bombed during the war. Does that not demonstrate the deep and enduring friendship between our two peoples, and does not my right hon. Friend’s statement this morning demonstrate to the Russians, Argentines and anyone else that if our interests are threatened throughout the world, we will respond?
Michael Fallon
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the terms in which he put that declaration, and I hope there is no doubt about our determination to stand up to any kind of intimidation or threat to our territory or the rights of those who want to remain British. I hope the message that will go out from across the House today is that we respect the right of the islanders in the decision they have taken to remain British.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s commitment to the defence of the self-determination of British overseas territories such as the Falkland Islands. Does that prove that Her Majesty’s Government were right to develop the new airport on Saint Helena as an important air bridge to the south Atlantic?
Michael Fallon
My hon. Friend is right: it was important to take that decision and to reinforce the links between Saint Helena and the United Kingdom. The commitment of expenditure on the Mount Pleasant airfield enables us to reinforce the islands remarkably quickly should any threat materialise.
Cyber-security
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on the Government’s national cyber-security programme.
Every day, the cyber threat is growing and we face ever more sophisticated attacks. According to one survey, 81% of large businesses and 60% of small businesses suffered a breach last year. Back in 2010 the coalition Government identified cyber as one of four tier 1 national security threats, and Britain has been among the fastest adopters of the digital economy. We are a world leader in digital services, which are a key part of our long-term economic plan. We cannot let our economic progress be undermined by those who would do us harm. No national Government can tackle the cyber threat alone, and international collaboration is central to our strategy, as is the closest partnership with the business community.
In 2011 we published our cyber-security strategy and have committed £860 million of funding over five years to the national cyber-security programme. That is to ensure that Britain remains one of the safest places to do business online. Cyber-security skills are scarce, and collaboration between Government, industry and academia is essential to build the skills and expertise we need.
Despite the huge budget deficit that we inherited, we have invested in our intelligence agencies and the National Crime Agency to build our capabilities to understand cyber threats and tackle cybercrime. GCHQ—often the object of poorly informed criticism—is home to a hugely impressive and patriotic collection of public servants, and I put on record my appreciation for the dedicated and highly skilled work they do to keep Britain safe.
We have worked with business to establish the cyber essentials scheme to raise awareness of five basic measures to keep companies safe. That scheme is now mandatory for certain types of Government procurement, and today 88% of FTSE 350 companies have cyber-security firmly on their risk registers. We created the national computer emergency response team—CERT-UK—to respond to major cyber incidents, and it played a significant role in protecting the Commonwealth games and the NATO summit in Wales. Following the Prime Minister’s successful visit to the US, CERT-UK will be leading joint exercising with its American counterpart later this year. The cyber-security information sharing partnership, based within CERT-UK, provides a safe space for businesses and Government to exchange information and develop responses in real time. CiSP now has 914 members and reports on 215,000 abused IP addresses daily.
Technology moves at an astonishing pace and we cannot stand still. Today I will set out further steps to keep us safe. Our new Cyber First scheme will be an elite development programme for the next generation of UK cyber-security talent. It draws heavily on Israel’s hugely successful Talpiot programme, which I saw first-hand on a visit to Israel in November. Talpiot provides the state of Israel with formidable cyber-security skills, and is also the seedbed for a fertile array of new businesses. Partly as a result, Israel now has more start-ups per capita than any other country.
Initially we will pilot Cyber First with a few tens of students. Each will receive £4,000 funding per year to study relevant undergraduate courses in science, technology, engineering and maths. They will be required to work during summer vacations or years out, either within government or in leading UK cyber-security companies. Participation in this elite programme will carry a commitment to work for the Government for at least three years before members start to see their financial support written down. This programme will be a vital pipeline of top-end cyber talent in the service of Britain’s national security.
Cyber First is the latest in a series of initiatives building cyber skills, including new apprenticeships, and introducing cyber-security to the National Citizen Service and ensuring that it is included in relevant courses leading to computing and digital qualifications for 16 to 19-year-olds. We sponsor cyber competitions in schools, as well as technical apprenticeships and PhDs; we are building cyber-security into computer science and computing degrees, and so far we have accredited six master’s degrees in cyber-security, created two new centres of doctoral training, three research institutes and 11 academic centres of excellence in cyber-security research. Two further universities—Kent and Surrey—have today been awarded centre of excellence status in cyber research. I can also announce the funding of three UK-Israel cyber research projects. Similar projects with Singapore will follow later this year, and I look forward to seeing the first cohort of joint UK-US Fulbright cyber-security scholars before too long.
All that builds on our much broader work to improve cyber skills, which has already seen 40,000 people enrol in the Open University cyber-security open online course. We have made good progress in developing digital and cyber skills more widely across the economy, and I warmly commend the work that my hon. Friend the Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy has done and continues to do on that.
For Government services, online safety is central. Gov.uk Verify, funded by the national cyber-security programme, is our world-leading identity assurance programme. I can announce today that we have put in place a new contractual framework for identity providers that will increase choice for citizens who wish to prove their identity online. I will announce shortly the details of the additional identity providers.
We have to worry about cyber-security because of the growth and development of the internet in the past 20 years. The internet has an amazing power to change people’s lives for the better. Cyber is a huge opportunity, as well as a threat. Britain’s cyber-security sector is worth more than £6 billion a year and employs some 40,000 people. We are on track to double cyber-security exports to £2 billion by next year. Our aim is to increase that to £4 billion by 2020, and we will promote more regional clusters to support more British cyber-businesses. We want Britain to benefit from the best digital economy in the world. Effective cyber-security is central to that success. I commend this statement to the House.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement. It is now twice in two days that he has come to the House to make a statement. Tomorrow he will make it a hat-trick with his final Cabinet Office Questions. Clearly, he wants to see as much of us all as possible before he retires from this House.
I pay tribute to the Minister for his work in the past five years as the Minister for the Cabinet Office and in the many years he has served the public as a Member of this House. There are many things on which we disagree, for example how we should use digital government to empower people rather than cutting them off from services, but no one can doubt his dedication to public service. Nor can we doubt the dedication of those who work so hard to protect us, our nation, its citizens and businesses from cyber-attacks. I, too, would like to put on record my praise for the work done by the security services, the police and all civil servants who work in this area. They do a vital job day in, day out to protect our cyber-infrastructure and digital footprints, and I commend their work.
I am sure the Minister agrees with that sentiment. I hope, therefore, that the Government will clarify how those who protect us in cyberspace will continue to do so when the Chancellor is bent on reducing public sector spending to levels not seen since the 1930s, before there was even an NHS or a GCHQ. It is clear from the Office for Budget Responsibility and the Institute for Fiscal Studies that, after the Chancellor’s Budget last week, unprotected Departments face huge cuts to meet his spending plans and unfunded tax cuts. The Ministry of Defence, the police and social care services are under threat. Can the Minister confirm whether the budget for cyber-security will be protected, or are we to assume that because the Cabinet Office is an unprotected Department that this will not be the case?
I welcome the new Cyber First pilot. Indeed, I was privileged to launch the UK’s first MBA in cyber-security with Coventry university. The demand for cyber-security experts is growing at 12 times the rate of the overall job market, so it is vital that we train and equip more people with cyber-skills. Small firms are the victims of three quarters of all successful data breaches and are the most likely to suffer from a lack of cyber-skills. However, just as the Minister came late to the digital inclusion agenda and then chose a strategy that excludes 10% of our fellow citizens, he has come late to—indeed, neglected—cyber-security for small businesses. According to the Institution of Engineering and Technology, half of all small and medium-sized enterprises have not even heard of the Government’s cyber-security efforts. What is the Minister doing to change that and to make small businesses more cyber-aware?
Crime is changing. It increasingly happens online, but the Government do not have a strategy to tackle it. The cyber-security budget is overwhelmingly going to cyber-security and big businesses, leaving consumers to fend for themselves. The majority of the cyber-security budget goes into the single intelligence account, with the police left a tiny amount to tackle a growing tide of online crime with an overall £2 billion cut in funding. The Home Affairs Committee highlighted the black hole where low-level e-crime is committed with impunity. What is the Minister doing to ensure that the police have the resources they need in this area?
I welcome the announcement of a new contractual framework for Gov.uk Verify. However, it was only in October that the Government were predicting that hundreds of thousands would be verified by now. In fact, only 50% of people are successful the first time they use the service. The Minister says that details will be announced “shortly”. Given that there are only a few days left before Parliament is dissolved, will he tell us exactly when he plans to announce the details? Specifically, will it include a public sector provider of identity assurance, so that people can choose a provider they trust?
Finally, the statement makes no mention whatever of mobile. It has taken the Government five years not to eradicate not spots, and they have ignored the gaping hole in cyber-security which is mobile device security, particularly in the era of “bring your own” device. What is the Minister doing specifically on mobile?
I could not help but notice that the statement was somewhat light on actual policy announcements. A cynic might think that the Minister was rushing out a half-baked announcement to use up time. It is almost as if the Government are scrambling around for something to say to give the impression that they have made real progress in rising to what is one of the greatest challenges of the digital era and one of the greatest opportunities for UK business. The UK can lead in cyber-security as we do in online commerce, but it will take skills for the many—small businesses and citizens, as well as big businesses—not the few. It will take a Labour Government to ensure we have that.
Mr Maude
I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady for her very warm words at the beginning of her response, which I enormously appreciate. Parting is indeed such sweet sorrow, but there is life beyond.
I am afraid it tailed off a little bit after that. The hon. Lady talked about cuts and the potential for continued funding for cyber-security in the next Parliament. She made the slightly odd suggestion that the trajectory of public spending would be at a level last seen in the 1930s. A little further research shows that the last time this level of spending was seen was in 1999-2000 under a Labour Government.
So far as funding for cyber-security is concerned, that will be dealt with in the context of the spending review that will take place after the election, but I do not know anybody who believes there is any possibility that there will not continue to be very significant funding for cyber-security. We are acknowledged across the world as being in the lead in this area. There is always a danger when one says that of being thought to be complacent. We are not remotely complacent. This is a very fast-moving set of threats and we have to move equally fast to keep up with it. We need to be on the case all the time.
The hon. Lady talked about the resources being devoted to tackling cybercrime. The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) who has responsibility for tackling cybercrime is in her place on the Front Bench. She takes this matter immensely seriously. The national cyber crime unit is based in the National Crime Agency. A good proportion of the cyber-security programme is funding for the law enforcement agencies, which do fantastic work. I obviously echo her enthusiastic support for those who work to protect and preserve our national security, and I include in that those in our armed forces active in this field.
The hon. Lady talked about digital inclusion, which she knows the Government take extremely seriously. We support the huge amount of work being done by businesses, particularly Barclays and other companies, on digital activity to enable people currently excluded to be active online, and that will continue to be the case. She also asked about mobile security on mobile devices, which is obviously a serious matter. So far as the Government are concerned, CESG, part of GCHQ, provides good guidance and is reckoned to be world leading on smart devices.
So far as citizens and consumers are concerned, she will be aware of our Cyber Streetwise campaign and Get Safe Online, which are about making sure people know the risks. GCHQ estimates that 80% of successful cyber-attacks could be thwarted or mitigated by basic internet hygiene, and for that awareness is important. I am less concerned about whether SMEs are aware of what the Government are doing; I am more concerned that they are aware of what they need to do, which is to take basic steps on internet hygiene.
There is much more to do, and there will never be any scope for a Government or businesses to rest on their laurels. I found the hon. Lady’s objection that my statement was light on policy slightly startling. Quite rightly, the Government have elevated cyber-security to one of the four tier 1 national security threats, so we take it enormously seriously. At a time when we had to cut public spending, because of the appalling public deficit inherited from the last Government, this was one of the very few areas that we decided was sufficiently important to invest further money in, and we will continue to do that.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
A number of Governments are known to have invested heavily in what might be termed “offensive cyber”. Given that we must do everything we can to protect our own systems, are there any messages we can send to such Governments about the consequences that would follow for them if they were unwise enough to launch a cyber-attack against this country?
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
One of the aims of the 2011 cyber-security strategy was to have the UK more resilient to cyber-attacks and able to protect our interests in cyberspace. How well does the Minister feel that this has been achieved, and how does the news that 81% of firms suffered from cyber-attacks and breaches in the last year, as he said in his introduction, fit with that strategy?
Mr Maude
Awareness in the business world is much higher than it was—it was woefully low and remains so in most parts of the world—partly as a result of the Government’s efforts. As a result, many more companies are taking active steps to treat this seriously—not as something to be delegated to the IT department but as a board-level risk to be understood and managed by the board as a major risk to the business. We shall continue to drive home this message.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on this important update. He talked about clusters. He will know that one of the most important cyber-security clusters in the UK is in world-class Worcestershire. One business he has visited there, Titania security, told me it was benefiting from a wide range of Government help, including the apprenticeships scheme, research and development tax credits and help with exporting from UK Trade & Investment. Will he update the House on how his Department could work with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to ensure that our cyber-security industry is the most competitive in the world?
Mr Maude
It is very competitive. I know that my hon. Friend has given enormous support to the cyber-cluster in Worcestershire. As a matter of historical accident almost, there are many such businesses in Great Malvern. When I visited in 2012, there were 40 or so cyber-companies; there are now more than 80. This is very fast growing. We help cyber-companies with exporting, and many of them are doing it. I visited Titania, in his constituency, and was hugely impressed by how many countries this relatively small company was selling its products to.
Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Cyber-security is a reserved matter, but will the Minister update the House on any conversations or meetings he has had with Police Scotland or the Scottish Government on this matter?
Mr Maude
We obviously co-ordinate as much as possible with the Scottish Government—my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for cybercrime could comment separately on any discussions the Home Office has with Police Scotland. The hon. Gentleman is right to imply that these matters require close co-ordination between Governments and law-enforcement agencies not just within the UK but much more widely, because cyber and the internet know no national boundaries.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
Following on from my right hon. Gentleman’s comments about GCHQ staff, what did he make of the Business Secretary’s comments that The Guardian Snowden publication was entirely correct and courageous, and will he outline his assessment of the effect that has had on the morale of our public servants at GCHQ?
Mr Maude
I happened to be visiting GCHQ shortly after my right hon. Friend made those remarks. The people who work at GCHQ do fantastic work—it is a centre of brilliant expertise and knowledge; they do difficult work away from the public gaze, and any comments that seem to undermine what they do in the service of national security have to be strongly deprecated.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
The Minister is right to pay tribute to the work of GCHQ and to prioritise cyber-security, which is very important for all of us. He will be aware that a fundamental part of that is good encryption, so will he encourage individuals and companies alike to push ahead with strong end-to-end encryption, wherever possible?
Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con)
It has been an enormous privilege in this Parliament for me to serve with my right hon. Friend in his team at the Cabinet Office doing exactly this work. Will he update the House further on what he continues to do to keep our critical national infrastructure safe?
Mr Maude
I am hugely grateful to my hon. Friend both for what she says and for the incredibly important work she did, particularly in taking the message about the need to strengthen cyber-security defences out to the business community, which she did with her characteristic energy and clarity. So far as the critical national infrastructure is concerned, a huge amount of work is already under way to continue to ensure that we understand the vulnerabilities. Obviously, the critical national infrastructure is not primarily owned by the state—it is in private sector hands—so we need to understand the vulnerabilities and work with the owners of that infrastructure to ensure that the defences are as good as they can be.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for agreeing to meet Training 2000 and me last October to discuss its plans to create an institute for cyber-security in Pendle. Following that meeting, it has followed up the leads he provided, and I am delighted to say that it is now progressing with its ambitious plans to create the institute later this year, to improve local cyber-skills and apprenticeships in the area. Given the importance of this issue to many Lancashire SMEs, what more can his Department do to support such proposals?
Mr Maude
Let me first pay tribute to the work my hon. Friend has done in this area. When I recently visited Pendle, I had the opportunity to discuss the matter with him. There has been no stronger champion of our potential to work with businesses to build the companies, the skills and the kind of centres for training that he mentions. I am confident that he will be in a position to take this work forward over the coming five years.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
Does the Paymaster General agree that the excellent news about a new university technical college at Berkeley Green in my constituency, providing skills and training in cyber, is perfectly timely in view of his statement and that it is likely to bring a real benefit to the Government Communications Headquarters?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is exactly right to draw attention to that. We need to build these skills—and build them early. The kind of college he mentions can play an incredibly important role in that, particularly, as he says, in view of its proximity to Cheltenham and GCHQ. We need to get to children earlier so that we can encourage more of them to specialise in these subjects. Under our Cyber First scheme, which I referred to in my statement, and in pursuit of the most gifted students, we will absolutely look to find really gifted students at a much younger age.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
I welcome yesterday’s launch by the Cabinet Office of the report into cyber-insurance, which hopes to make the UK the world capital of cyber-insurance in the marketplace. It will not only give the UK insurance market the leading edge in order to become the world leader, but will encourage our small and medium-sized enterprises to take up cyber-insurance through the terms and conditions of their insurance policy.
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to this. We have, I think, got ahead of the game by commissioning the work we have done jointly with the insurance industry. Cyber-insurance is a market in its infancy. Many businesses do not know whether they are covered for damage and loss caused by cyber-attacks. The fact that Britain excels in the insurance market—London is the world’s centre of insurance—and that Britain is very good at cyber-security will enable us to become world leaders in this important area. The sophisticated pricing of cyber-risk will be a huge stimulus, particularly to smaller businesses, to ensure that they have done what they can to protect themselves. I welcome the industry’s support, particularly for smaller businesses and SMEs, of the Cyber Essentials scheme as a kitemark for taking the right steps to protect themselves.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
The prize for patience goes to Mr Richard Graham.
Richard Graham
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I congratulate the Minister for the Cabinet Office on both his statement and his strong commitment to a quiet revolution on our nation’s understanding of, and support for, the cyber-industry. My right hon. Friend knows the important cluster in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire, which now includes the future training centre rightly mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael). Does my right hon. Friend agree that places such as the new cyber-centre in Gloucester, led by Raytheon with innovative partners employing between 9,000 and 90,000 employees, should encourage local universities such as the university of Gloucestershire to play an important role in developing appropriate courses for future skills in this sector?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is completely right to draw attention to that and to emphasise the need for us to develop these skills early. These are scarce skills at the moment, but they do not need to be. We took steps early in the course of the coalition Government to start the process of building skills, and the kind of developments to which my hon. Friend refers are a crucial part of that.
Point of Order
Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can you clarify the process that exists for a situation in which the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) refuses to apologise to the Minister for Employment, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) for quoting someone who referred to her by saying, “Lynch the bastard”. If the hon. Gentleman did not agree with remarks made by others that were in effect inciting violence against a female MP, why on earth did he repeat them to another audience? I had hoped that he would apologise before this House dissolves, but no apology has been forthcoming.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
I call Mr John McDonnell to respond to that point of order.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
This has been raised before, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it was accepted by the House that I would in no way ever encourage violence or support violence against an hon. Member— [Interruption.]
John McDonnell
I therefore have nothing to apologise for. If a constituent shouts something out to an MP, that is a matter for the constituent. This is about the right hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) trying to make herself into a victim over this issue. The real victims are people such as David Clapson who starved to death as a result of—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. If the hon. Gentleman is responding to a point of order, I must insist that he sticks only to that point of order. Has he finished his response to this point of order? He may do so.
John McDonnell
I was simply putting it in the context of the suffering that has been caused by the right hon. Member for Wirral West—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. I have said to the hon. Gentleman that he must limit his remarks to the substance of the point of order. I am allowing him to do so and giving him plenty of opportunity to respond. We do not need the background information—just his response.
John McDonnell
The substance of the matter is that there is nothing to apologise for, and I hope that on 7 May the electorate will remove the stain of inhumanity—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. It is not a matter for me to discuss the electorate on 7 May. It is disappointing that a matter such as this should have to come before the House. I thank the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) and the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) for giving notice of their intention to be here today to raise this point. Let me repeat what the Deputy Speaker said when the matter was raised in November—that what hon. Members say outside this place is not a matter for the Chair.
I would, however, strongly clarify—the hon. Lady asked for clarification—that it is incumbent on all Members of this House, either within the Chamber or elsewhere, to act with courtesy to one another and, indeed, to everyone else whom they might encounter. I understand the hon. Lady’s particular concerns about reported comments suggesting violence—whether they were seriously intentioned or not. I am quite certain, and I am sure the whole House will agree, that no hon. Member would wish to be associated with such comments. I urge hon. Members concerned in this matter to consider that apology is not backing down; it is a courteous way of settling a matter. One would hope that hon. Members of this House would wish always to act with such courtesy.
Schools (Opportunity to Study for Qualifications)
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of State to ensure that pupils in secondary education are guaranteed the opportunity to study for qualifications including triple science GCSEs and all English Baccalaureate GCSE subjects; and for connected purposes.
The past five years have witnessed a transformation in the uptake of rigorous subjects at GCSE. It cannot be denied that the introduction of the English baccalaureate as a measure of performance has seen the percentage of pupils studying for English, maths, science, a modern foreign language and either history or geography rise from 22% in 2009-10 to 36% in 2013-14—and it is expected to rise above 40% this academic year.
This is welcome news, for we know that in an increasingly competitive and outward-facing global world, qualifications matter. Even at 14, the choices that a pupil makes in choosing their GCSE options will have a critical impact on their future. Universities now take GCSE results and the subjects studied into close account, while the choice of certain GCSEs can have a limiting effect on a pupil’s ability to study certain subjects at A-level, which in turn can prevent access to the study of these subjects at university. Options at 14 are, in fact, a seismic moment in a pupil’s education, one on which their entire academic future and career may depend.
Given how important the choice of GCSEs has become, and given the weight that is placed on them, one would expect that all pupils, regardless of where they were born, would—in today’s world—be given equal opportunities to study for qualifications that would decide their own future career paths. If pupils’ options are to be meaningful, they must also be given an equal and fair choice of subjects that is open to all. It is unacceptable that the subject choices and, as a result, the aspirations of many pupils are still being capped by a lack of subject provision in the schools that they attend. For many pupils, GCSE choices are little more than a modern-day Hobson’s choice: they are forced either to study certain subjects that their schools have deemed appropriate, or to study nothing at all.
That is particularly true of the uptake of sciences at GCSE. For too long, a great educational divide existed between schools that offered only what was then called double science, and schools that gave their pupils a chance to study the three separate sciences—biology, chemistry and physics. For too long, that chance was mostly the preserve of pupils who were educated in the private or selective sectors, while those attending comprehensive schools were forced to accept second best. Over the past 10 years, rapid progress has been made in the raising of aspirations in every school. In 2004, fewer than 40% of secondary schools offered the three separate sciences, or triple science, at GCSE, whereas recently 87.5% of schools entered pupils for triple science. In 2010, the figure was 78.2%.
Important work has been undertaken through schemes such as the triple science support programme, managed by myScience, which has helped 1,385 schools to increase provision of the three sciences. Following the creation of a national network of science learning centres which prepare teachers and technicians to meet the challenge of providing the delivery of triple science, the number of pupils in state-funded schools taking triple science has increased by more than 45,500 since 2010. Across the country, there have been individual success stories of schools that have transformed their science provision. John Smeaton Academy, for instance, initially only allowed its pupils to study science through a BTEC course, but some are now studying three separate sciences.
Last month, however, the publication of the Open Public Services Network’s “Lack of Options” report underlined the challenge that we still face in aiming to ensure that all pupils, regardless of where they live or what school they attend, are given equal opportunities to study for the qualifications that may secure their future. The report found that in just 41 of 149 local authorities did every school give pupils a chance to study the three separate sciences. The variation was stark: in Sutton, 46% of pupils had chosen to enter triple science GCSE, compared with just 14% in Hull and a pitiful 11% in Knowsley, where, worryingly, only 51% of pupils took any kind of science GCSE
Although the report’s conclusions suggested that there was a strong correlation between areas of deprivation and the provision of triple science GCSE, it is important to note that a pupil’s own economic family background did not necessarily act as a barrier to attainment. In Hammersmith and Fulham, the proportion of pupils who were eligible for free school meals was similar to that in Knowsley—47%, compared with 51%—but 37% of pupils were entered for triple science, compared with 11% in Knowsley. The real difference between those two authorities, however, involved the provision of triple science GCSE in schools. In 43% of schools in Knowsley, not a single pupil was entered for triple science GCSE, whereas every school in Hammersmith and Fulham offered the three separate sciences.
Poverty of aspiration, which lowers horizons and dims lights that should be burning brightly, still reaches into areas of our education system, and into places where education is most needed to transform young lives. We cannot continue to allow generation after generation of pupils to be let down simply because of the accident of where they were born or what school they attend. In Bristol, my own local area, only 23.3% of pupils were entered for triple science GCSE. A quarter of schools did not even offer the subject at GCSE. Every single school did so in South Gloucestershire, North Somerset, and Bath and North East Somerset. That contrast is simply unacceptable.
As a local MP, like many other Members to whom I have spoken, I have dealt with casework involving this issue. A pupil whose ambition and aspirations were still burning wished to study the three separate sciences at GCSE, with a view to studying medicine at university. She was informed by the school—which called itself a specialist science school—that she would not be able to do so. After her parents visited my surgery, I investigated the case, under the impression that, in 2008, the previous Government’s science and innovation investment framework had entitled all pupils who achieved a level 6 or above at key stage 3 to study triple science at GCSE. When I contacted the science, engineering and design and technology team at the Department for Education, I was informed that that was not the case, and that the promise that had been made back in 2008 was not
“a legal entitlement. It was a commitment made by the last government but was never made statutory”.
The Department further explained that there was no legal entitlement for pupils in any maintained school, including the old specialist schools, to study triple science. It was up to the school and the governing body to decide what science qualifications should be offered.
Regardless of the improvements that have been made throughout the country—and I accept that here have been fantastic improvements—the situation remains the same. Pupils who are trapped in a school that does not offer triple science GCSE will be prevented from studying the subjects that they wish to study, the subjects that could transform their future. Rather than that critical choice being placed in the hands of pupils themselves, allowing them to choose their own destiny, it remains the case that the power to arbitrate over pupils’ lives remains with the schools themselves.
I propose that the law be changed, so that pupils can be given not only the entitlement that was once promised to them, but what I call a “right to learn”. If a school is unable to offer triple science GCSE for whatever legitimate reason—and I fully understand that the provision of laboratories and specialist science staff is critical—it should have a duty to ensure that pupils are given the chance to study for those GCSEs elsewhere. I hope that such a duty would in itself act as a positive enabling force to help to end the “subject deserts” that are afflicting parts of the country, highlighting the fact that the current situation must change. I hope that it would ensure greater collaboration between schools, driving up further the number of pupils taking triple science GCSE. I have chosen science today because it is a particularly pressing example, but an equal case can be made for other EBacc subjects.
I hope that in another decade we shall be able to look back—as I have today—to review the progress that schools have made, and to assess the further progress that they must make if we are to ensure that pupils are given the best start in life in an increasingly competitive world. However, I also hope that by then we shall have relegated to history a world in which pupils’ educational chances, and the subjects that are offered to them, depend on the part of the country in which they were born. The fact that pupils are still being denied an opportunity to study for qualifications that are available to others in state-funded schools is unacceptable, and nothing short of educational discrimination. This simple Bill would ensure that, while the fight to reduce inequality of attainment must continue apace, we can at least end the inequality of access and opportunity to study for qualifications that should be available to all.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
I oppose the Bill because, despite its title, I feel that the hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) has misunderstood the nature of the risk that is posed to students who need to study specific subjects. In blaming schools and teachers, he has ignored the imminent prospect of the withdrawal of certain modern foreign language A-level subjects. Students will have no opportunity to study for A-level qualifications in subjects such as Polish, Punjabi, Bengali and Hebrew, because the A-level examination board—the only board that provides for those subjects—is planning to withdraw the examinations in 2017.
The Government have failed to do anything to prevent the removal of Polish and Punjabi—the two languages which, after English, are most spoken in this country— from the A-level examination syllabus. In 1998, when such a move was last suggested, Members tabled an early-day motion, and succeeded in preventing Edexcel from ending the A-level examination in Polish. At that time, there were 100 students studying Polish A-level; now there are nearly 10 times as many, but the plan is still to abandon the course.
When Ofsted last looked at the teaching of modern foreign languages, it produced a report in January 2011 and pointed out that A-level entries in modern languages increased slightly between 2007 and 2010, from 28,377 to 29,836. Since then there has been a depressing decline. Entries for French are down 3,150 to 9,000, and entries for German are down 1,300 to 3,750. There has been a significant increase in the number of students getting qualifications in the minority modern foreign languages, which are the very languages that will soon be unavailable for examination.
So what did I do? I wrote to the AQA examination board and Ofqual and they responded. I sent a copy to the Secretary of State for Education, who has not responded. AQA said that
“government changes to the exam system and qualifications mean that only new GCSEs and A-levels accredited by the exams regulator, Ofqual, can be offered by awarding bodies”.
In other words, it is pointing to Ofqual. It also talks about the specific subjects I have raised:
“we will be faced with a number of challenges. We know it will become increasingly difficult to recruit sufficient examiners with assessment expertise to set and mark the four skills of reading, writing, speaking and listening.”
I have spoken to a senior examiner in Polish and she assures me there is no difficulty in finding suitably qualified examiners in that subject, yet AQA is determined to abandon it. It points out that only 983 students were entered in the last year, but it has ignored the fact that the Polish community, which is the biggest driver of the number of A-level entrants, is growing hugely. So this short-sighted policy risks the children of the many thousands of Poles who have settled in Britain in the last years not being able to study the language.
Let us have a look at what Ofqual says. It says:
“What is taught in schools up to Key Stage 4 is a matter for Government. After this the offering will be demand led for the exam boards who are free (mostly) to develop qualifications at A level that they wish.”
I want the Minister on the Treasury Bench, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), to make sure they are not mostly “free” to develop the qualifications they wish. Instead he should insist that they develop the qualifications students need, because if we do not study these modern foreign languages, including the languages of the growing markets in south Asia, we will lose important outward-facing opportunities for the British economy.
Ofqual goes on to say:
“We at Ofqual do not…seek to limit the curriculum. We do expect any GCSE, AS or A level to be of comparable demand”.
It is saying that it needs the same number of entrants for each subject, but at the current rate of decline the number of entrants for Polish and French will be very similar very soon, and I imagine that the number of entrants for Polish and German will be almost the same by the time the Polish A-level is abandoned.
The Government must use their power to direct Ofqual. The Ofqual response says that
“we here at Ofqual make no judgements on what subjects ought to be taught as part of key stages of the curriculum”.
Someone needs to take responsibility for making this judgment, because it is clear that there are sufficient examiners. The Polish University Abroad, which is based in London, runs further education courses for BA graduates in teaching Polish as a second language, and it does not expect any shortage of suitably qualified examiners in the near future.
If the hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) had focused his Bill on qualifications that students are prevented from being able to obtain by Government inaction, it could have enabled students to qualify in Polish, in Punjabi, in Hebrew, in Bengali—in all the languages that the examination boards are planning to abandon. If we abandon them, we cannot continue to depend on the fact that English is our greatest export as the reason why our companies can succeed so well. We need to recognise that in order to compete in an increasingly globalised world, Britain needs access to all those languages, and if we just look backwards we will not obtain the wealth our country needs or give children the chance to get an A-level in a subject they will succeed in.
The hon. Gentleman compared the approaches to learning in Hammersmith and Knowsley. I believe that one of the reasons why London education authorities are doing well in this regard is that London children bring many languages to their schools—languages they are able to be examined in and succeed in. If somebody has access to another language, they have insights that can strengthen all areas of their learning. We are about to deny an entire cohort of children that opportunity to be examined in modern foreign languages, and I wish the hon. Gentleman’s Bill would sort out that problem, rather than the one he has talked about.
Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Chris Skidmore, Dr Sarah Wollaston, Henry Smith, Neil Carmichael, Andrew Percy, Mr Dominic Raab, Nigel Adams, Mr Henry Bellingham, Richard Fuller, Christopher Pincher and Mrs Cheryl Gillan present the Bill.
Chris Skidmore accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 27 March, and to be printed (Bill 194).
Business of the House (24, 25 and 26 March)
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
I am glad to have the opportunity to participate in this debate, and I am disappointed that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has not chosen to speak to this very important motion.
We are in a fixed-term Parliament. The Government have known for the best part of five years the date of Dissolution, yet this motion is expressed in terms that suggest there is some sort of emergency requiring the Finance Bill to be considered tomorrow in all its stages in a maximum of six hours.
It may well be that Opposition Members are indifferent to this, but having seen the Finance Bill, which was printed only today for the first time, I notice that the explanatory notes extend to some 258 pages. There are some 127 clauses covering 121 pages, and 21 schedules covering a further 220 pages. It does not seem possible to do justice to those provisions on behalf of all the people who could be affected by the Bill by considering it for only six hours and at relatively short notice. Given that we knew that we were approaching Dissolution, I hope that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will explain why the arrangements were made in such a way as to allow so little time for the Bill.
In the past, as I recall, a shorter Finance Bill has been introduced at this stage, with provision for a second Bill to be introduced after the general election to deal with matters in more detail. In that way, it has been possible to scrutinise the important changes that affect businesses and individuals up and down the country. I fear that we shall have no such opportunity this time.
I should also like to tease out what my right hon. Friend has in mind in paragraph 1(c) of the motion, which states:
“At today’s sitting and the sittings on Wednesday 25 March and Thursday 26 March…no notice shall be required of any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown and any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown may be proceeded with, though opposed, after the moment of interruption and shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the House”.
Does one of the motions that he intends to bring forward under these provisions relate to the commitments he made to me and to the House in recent weeks? On 5 February, I asked him:
“When will my right hon. Friend publish the draft changes to Standing Orders that will be necessary to implement English votes on English issues?”
He replied:
“That is a party matter, rather than a Government matter, since there are different policies among the coalition parties. However, it is important to show the detail, so I intend later this month to set out how the proposal that I made earlier this week can be implemented in Standing Orders.”—[Official Report, 5 February 2015; Vol. 592, c. 426.]
I was very pleased with that response. Unfortunately, nothing had happened by the end of February, so I returned to the issue on 12 March, again during business questions. I said to my right hon. Friend:
“On 5 February at column 426 of Hansard, my right hon. Friend told me that he intended ‘later’ in February to set out the draft changes to Standing Orders to implement English votes for English laws. Why was he not able to meet his own target deadline of the end of February? May I seek an assurance from him that he will meet it before his final departure from this place?”
He responded:
“My right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young)”—
who I am pleased to see is in his place—
“asked about this last week. It is true that February has stretched into March, and I am conscious of the commitment that was made to my hon. Friend, so I do intend to publish the proposed Standing Order changes.”—[Official Report, 12 March 2015; Vol. 594, c. 413.]
Those changes to Standing Orders could be introduced in the form of a motion, no notice of which would be required, under the provisions of paragraph 1(c) of the business of the House motion that we are now considering. I hope that I am not being unduly optimistic in asking my right hon. Friend to confirm that that is indeed his intention, and that that is why he has included in the motion a reference to motions being able to be brought forward by Ministers of the Crown without notice. I have not yet seen any record in the Official Report of a ministerial statement altering the commitments that my right hon. Friend has already made on English votes for English laws, so I hope he will take this opportunity to introduce the changes today.
This matter is topical, not least because a series of public petitions is due to be presented later today by a host of my right hon. and hon. Friends on the issue of English votes for English laws. It would be a big mistake if we were to enter the general election campaign without having this matter properly clarified, at the very least in the form of a draft Standing Order attached to a motion brought forward by the Government without notice.
The First Secretary of State and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr William Hague)
The type of motion before the House is usual in the run-up to the end of a Parliament, and this motion facilitates the effective and efficient use of the time of the House in bringing this Session, and this Parliament, to a satisfactory conclusion. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) is quite right to say that this Parliament is different from its predecessors in being a fixed-term Parliament. That is why there are so few Bills left to consider, and so few Bills moving between this House and the other place, at this stage. As is set out in the motion, we will go on to consider Lords amendments to two Bills, including the Modern Slavery Bill, which is still before the other place, but they represent a small proportion of the legislative programme and there is no reason why this should not come to an orderly conclusion. The motion provides for it to do so.
The one exception to the Bills that have been able to make such progress is of course the Finance Bill, to which my hon. Friend has referred. We have known for a long time that the Budget would take place six days ago on 18 March, which it duly did, and that a Finance Bill would therefore have to be considered in fairly short order between then and the Dissolution of Parliament. This is not an uncommon development. Those of us who were here in 1992 will remember the Budget being delivered only a couple of days before the Dissolution of Parliament, and that has happened on a number of other occasions as well. That has often led to substantial Finance Acts being introduced immediately after the Budget, as is the case here. I do not see any difference in principle between those occasions and this one.
Mr Hague
It is true that there was a further Finance Act, but it is also true that many provisions were included in the initial Finance Act, as far as could be agreed with the Opposition. The present Opposition have not opposed—let us put it that way—the great majority of the measures in this year’s Budget, and we have therefore been able to include a greater proportion of it in the Finance Bill. As with any Bill, however, it will be for the House to reach its judgment in the normal way on the Finance Bill when we debate it tomorrow. My hon. Friend will be able to take part in those debates. We are providing the time that is available for the Finance Bill before the Dissolution of Parliament, which must by law take place on 30 March, which is next Monday, so the time available to debate the Bill is tomorrow. If my hon. Friend wants to tell Treasury Ministers that he wishes it was a smaller Finance Bill, he will of course be able to do so during those debates.
On my hon. Friend’s final question about paragraph 1(c) of the motion, the answer is a fairly comprehensive no. As I pointed out in my first answer that he read out on a change to Standing Orders relating to English votes on English laws, this is a party matter. It would be possible to lay a Government motion under the provisions of paragraph 1(c) only if such a motion had been agreed across the whole coalition. My hon. Friend is well versed in these matters, and he will know that the policy on this issue is not agreed across the coalition and that it therefore remains a party matter. It is therefore not for me, as Leader of the House in the Government, to publish any such proposed changes to Standing Orders; I could do so only as a Conservative party spokesman. It remains my intention to do so, but not as Leader of the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Recall of MPs Bill
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is involved in Lords amendment 18. If the House agrees to that Lords amendment, Mr Speaker will ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the Journal.
Clause 1
How an MP becomes subject to a recall petition process
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Mr Sam Gyimah)
I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments 2 to 17, 21, 22 and 27.
Mr Gyimah
The amendments in this group relate to the circumstances that would trigger a recall petition. They were tabled by the Government in the House of Lords to ensure that the important changes made to the Bill in this House are reflected throughout the Bill, ensuring that the legislation works in practice. The Prime Minister made it clear that the Government would be open to Parliament changing and improving this Bill, and that has happened. We had a free vote on amendments brought forward on Report, and I am pleased that the provisions have been strengthened as a result.
Hon. Members may recall that on Report in this House, Members voted to add to the provisions in the Bill to trigger a recall petition following a conviction for expenses-related offences under section 10 of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, irrespective of sentence. The House also changed the second trigger so that a recall petition would be opened if an MP were suspended on the recommendation of the Standards Committee for 10 or more sitting days, rather than the 21 or more sitting days in the original Bill. As only the lead amendments were moved at that time, the Government tabled amendments in the House of Lords—amendments 1 to 6, 8, 9, 12 to 15, 17, 21 and 22—which are required to give full effect to the changes.
Amendment 7 gives effect to an amendment agreed in this House to ensure that offences committed before the Act comes into force can trigger the opening of a recall petition so long as the conviction and sentencing take place after the Act comes into force. Amendments 10 and 11 further define the allowable appeal period in the case of a conviction that would trigger the opening of a recall petition under the first or third recall condition. That ensures that an MP has the opportunity to appeal against a conviction, but that the recall petition process can also begin in a timely manner. Amendment 27 is a technical amendment, clarifying the definition of “overturned on appeal”. Amendment 16 corrects a minor oversight, by removing the requirement for the courts to inform the Speaker of a sentence that would lead to recall if the person in question had already ceased to be an MP—in such circumstances, it is clearly no longer necessary for the Speaker to be informed.
The amendments in this group are therefore largely consequential and technical, and give proper effect to changes that were made with considerable support in this House. I look forward to the debate on these amendments, which I commend to the House.
Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)
We welcome and support these Lords amendments. On Report, it was a Labour amendment that added a third recall condition of conviction for an offence under section 10 of the 2009 Act, so we particularly welcome these amendments from the other place. As the Minister said, they are minor and technical amendments, but they ensure the Bill will work by making this third recall condition fully operational.
The group also contains helpful amendments concerning the second recall condition. For example, when an MP is suspended from the House, the report of the Committee on Standards which precedes the House of Commons’ order for a suspension must relate specifically to that MP, not to general behaviour. As the Minister said, the House of Lords has also tidied up certain elements of the Bill. Amendment 7 ensures that a recall petition can be brought for offences committed before the day on which the Act comes into force, so long as the conviction and sentencing took place after that date.
Amendment 10 ensures that the third recall condition—on conviction for an offence and sentencing—would begin once all relevant appeals had been determined. That is a sensible but important provision. Other amendments make welcome technical changes to tidy up the proposed legislation. Amendments 23 to 25 would remove the power of the Speaker to appoint a person to exercise the Speaker’s functions under the Bill in his or her absence, and instead allow the elected Chairman of Ways and Means or Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means to do so if the Speaker is unable to perform them. As the Minister explained, these are technical and consequential amendments, and the Opposition are happy to give them our support.
Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD)
I rise to support the amendments, such as they are, from the House of Lords. They clearly strengthen the Bill in a minor way. Members may recall that we expended a fair amount of time and effort trying to strengthen the Bill in a more concrete way when it was before this House by giving access to a non-parliamentary route for recall. I am sad that we did not find a solution acceptable to both Houses to enable that to happen. Having said that, I do not agree with the argument that it would be better not to have a Bill at all. This Bill is a substantial step forward. It does not go as far as I would like, but I recognise that if we have it in place and it receives Royal Assent, as I assume it will, there is a substrate on which we can build—not me, but successor Parliaments—in order to provide a more acceptable position for the future.
As the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) mentioned an amendment in the next group, I hope you will afford me the latitude of saying, Madam Deputy Speaker, that amendments 23 to 25 were ones that I tabled originally in this House. I am very pleased to see that the Government have accepted them in the Lords, so I will not need to say anything about them when we get to the next group.
Mr Gyimah
With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, let me say, as I said in my opening remarks, that these amendments are sensible modifications, ensuring that the Bill works effectively. I hope the House will support them, I am grateful for the Opposition spokesman’s comments on them and I commend them to the House.
Lords amendment 1 agreed to.
Lords amendments 2 to 17 agreed to.
Clause 7
Where and from when the recall petition may be signed
The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)
I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 18.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments 19, 20, 23 to 26 and 28 to 32.
Tom Brake
The amendments in this group relate to the way in which recall petitions will be run. They pick up on a number of points made in debates in both Houses and are designed to make improvements to the operation of the recall petitions for the benefit of constituents, administrators and campaigners. The amendments also ensure that the Electoral Commission plays a greater role in reporting on the operation of recall petitions in practice. I will describe the amendments briefly and will also address the more technical amendments that form part of this group.
Amendments 18 to 20 relate to constituents’ engagement with and access to the recall petition process. Lords amendment 18 increases the number of signing places that the petition officer can designate from a maximum of four to a maximum of 10. This amendment addresses concerns expressed during previous debates in this House and the House of Lords about accessibility for constituents living in rural areas who may wish to sign the petition in person. In setting the number at 10, we consulted the Electoral Management Board for Scotland and the returning officers for the Western Isles and for Argyll and Bute. They were clear that a limit of four could pose particular challenges in large rural constituencies or in constituencies with a number of islands, and felt that a raised limit would afford them helpful flexibility.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
I have listened with great interest to what the Minister has to say. Does not Lords amendment 19, which reduces the period during which the recall petition would be available for signing from eight to six weeks, make it far more likely that an MP under the recall mechanism will survive the process?
Tom Brake
We had to strike a balance between the number of signing places and the number of weeks that a petition was available. We felt that, following the discussions that had taken place in both Houses, the idea of providing a maximum of 10 signing places and allowing six weeks was an appropriate compromise. It is always worth reinforcing the point that postal voting is available, which makes the petition process and the recall process quite open and acceptable.
Jonathan Edwards
In the Minister’s opening remarks, he coupled Lords amendment 18 with Lords amendment 19. Would it not be better for Lords amendment 18 to say a “minimum” of 10 rather than a maximum of 10?
Tom Brake
That is a subject of debate. If the returning officer in the constituency of Argyll and Bute, which has, I think, more islands than any other constituency, felt that 10 signing places was appropriate, it is difficult to envisage circumstances in which more than 10 would be required anywhere else in the country. There can always be a debate on whether that is the appropriate number. I hope that returning officers will ensure that, for their particular locality, the right number is chosen. I suspect that in my patch, if ever there were to be a recall petition in Carshalton and Wallington, two or three signing places would be the maximum required, as the constituency size is only about four by five miles. However, I have to say that such a petition will not be required in my constituency.
With these amendments, the Electoral Commission will be able to review every recall petition process to help ensure that the spending and donations rules are working in line with the principles. Lords amendment 31 corrects a minor and technical cross-reference in schedule 5 to the Bill.
I look forward to a short debate on these amendments, which I commend to the House.
Stephen Twigg
Let me start by apologising to the House, particularly to the right hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), that I was a little ahead of myself in addressing amendments 23 to 25, which are in the second grouping. I echo what the Deputy Leader of the House said by way of tribute to the right hon. Gentleman for his record of work in this House. He has sought not only to work for his constituents but to reconnect the House with the public, which is an important challenge for all of us.
The second group of amendments significantly improves the original legislation. As the Deputy Leader of the House has said, Lords amendment 18 would increase the number of places that the petition officer could designate in their constituency for signing the recall petition, from a maximum of four to a maximum of 10. That is welcome and should ensure that accessing a petition is not an overly difficult process for constituents. Amendment 19 would reduce the length of the period during which the recall petition is available, from eight to six weeks. We support that as it is combined with an increase in the number of signing places. Taken together, those amendments allow for easy access to the petition while giving a realistic time scale for the collection of signatures.
Lords amendment 26 is welcome. It removes the power for the Act itself to be amended by regulations. Lords amendment 32 is especially welcome and important as it requires the Electoral Commission to produce and publish a report on the recall petition process after the end of the petition period in relation to each recall petition. That is important because it enables us to learn from the process as it develops. This is a new and innovative feature of our political system. It is good that the Electoral Commission is tasked with producing and publishing such a report, so that we can learn lessons from each petition and, if necessary, make changes to improve public access to the process.
I agree that the Bill has been improved through the stages of scrutiny in this place and in the House of Lords. I believe it will play a part—probably quite a modest part—in improving the accountability of Parliament and Members of Parliament, and therefore play a small role in renewing our political institutions.
Tom Brake
With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, may I say that the amendments follow thorough scrutiny in both Houses and will improve the operation of recall petitions by encouraging participation and ensuring public confidence in the outcome. I thank hon. Members on both sides of the House for their constructive scrutiny of the Bill. I believe the Bill will provide our constituents with a further means of holding us to account—beyond the greater means that happen on 7 May—in the form of an additional tool that can be used where Members of Parliament have committed serious wrongdoing. I commend the amendments to the House.
Lords amendment 18 agreed to, with Commons financial privilege waived.
Lords amendments 19 to 32 agreed to.
Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is involved in Lords amendments 85, 123 and 133. If the House agrees to any of these amendments, Mr Speaker will cause an appropriate entry to be made in the Journal.
Clause 41
The Pubs Code
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)
I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 34.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments 35 to 62, 86, 132 and 136 to 141.
Jo Swinson
Part 4 of the Bill will introduce a statutory code and an independent adjudicator to regulate the relationship between large pub companies and their tied tenants. It will address problems about which many hon. Members and the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills have been concerned for a number of years.
The House will remember that, on Report in this House in November, a market rent only option for tied pub tenants was added by way of a vote. In the other place, my noble Friend Baroness Neville-Rolfe confirmed the Government’s acceptance of the will of this House, so we have before us a Bill that honours that commitment and remains true to the spirit and intention of the amendment introduced by this House on Report. For example, MRO must be provided for by the code, it must set out reasonable time scales for the process, and it must include certain MRO triggers. Government amendments 39, 40 and 41 amend the original clause 42, which was introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). I take this opportunity to pay tribute to his dedication to this cause, his relentless campaigning for the rights of tied tenants, and his willingness to move forward. The way he has worked and championed the measure with MPs from both sides of the House, with the all-party group and with campaigners up and down the country is a real testament to what can be achieved by someone with vision and determination.
The amendments ensure that MRO is workable within the approach taken in part 4, is legally robust, and avoids unintended consequences. They are split into three clauses for clarity, one setting out a clear framework for the MRO option, one making provision for the procedures needed to deliver it, and one providing for the adjudicator to resolve disputes.
Amendment 39 provides tied tenants with the right to a market rent only agreement at a number of trigger points: at a rent review, at lease renewal, when there is a significant and unexpected price increase, or if an event occurs that is outside the tenant’s control and has a significant impact on the tenant’s trade. Although prospective tenants will not have the right to the market rent only option, they will have the protection of the parallel rent assessment, so that they can judge if the tied deal they are being offered is fair. PRA will also be available to existing tenants and, through secondary legislation, will be streamlined with the MRO process.
Amendment 40 sets out the procedure for the market rent only option and provides that the pubs code must specify a reasonable period for the two stages of the process. The first stage is where a tenant and their pub company try to agree a rent, and the second involves the determination of a market rent by an independent assessor. Amendment 41 provides the powers to enable the adjudicator to resolve disputes over matters such as the proposed MRO agreement, the independent assessor’s determination of the market rent, and whether the MRO procedures have been followed.
The original MRO clause included triggers for MRO upon the sale of a pub or the administration of a pub-owning company. In discussions with stakeholders, it became clear that it was not the fact of sale or administration itself that was a concern; rather, it was the potential for a pub sale, whether as part of an administration or in the normal course of business, to result in adverse consequences for the tenant. After extensive consultation and discussion with stakeholders and debate in the other place, amendment 47 extends the protections of the code—apart from the market rent only option—to tenants whose pub is sold by a code company to a company outside the statutory code.
To deter avoidance and ensure fairness we are also continuing code protections—excluding the market rent only option—until the next rent review for the tied tenants of pubs owned by a code company which, by selling a number of their other pubs, falls below the threshold of 500 tied pubs. Those tenants too would have continuing rights and expectations regarding their existing lease and the protections they should have under the statutory code, and they should not lose their protections because of events beyond their control.
We believe that this is a proportionate and targeted protection. It will last until the next rent assessment or the end of the tenancy, whichever comes first. MRO will not be extended, and nor will the investigation powers of the adjudicator. Investigation powers are not continued because they are designed to uncover systemic breaches of the code. It would not be right to include in that power companies that are obliged to follow the code only because some of the pubs they own used to belong to a code company, and that are covered by the code only in respect of those pubs. However, the arbitration powers of the adjudicator do remain, so those tenants will be able to refer any allegations of a code breach during the extension period to the adjudicator.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
What would the penalty be for any breaches?
Jo Swinson
The adjudicator will be able to make recommendations so that problems can be put right, and ultimately it will have the power to levy fines. The specific details will be set out in secondary legislation, but we have a model in the Groceries Code Adjudicator. That adjudicator is already working, and we are learning from it how such a system can work smoothly in terms of staffing, for example.
Amendments 43, 44, 45, 55, 132 and 139 are consequential technical amendments to the MRO amendments. They relate to the enforcement of the code, the adjudicator’s annual report, the list of defined terms in clause 69 and to commencement.
The original market rent only clause allowed brewers that own tied pubs to require their MRO tenants to continue to sell the brewery’s products, as long as the tenant may buy them from any source. Amendment 46 implements that intention by amending clause 65 so that such a stocking requirement in a tenancy agreement would not of itself make the pub a tied pub. In stakeholder discussions, brewers requested greater clarity on what they were permitted to do under a stocking requirement; others were concerned that the stocking requirement might lead to undue restrictions on tenants who have chosen MRO.
Amendment 46 clarifies that brewers may also protect their route to market by allowing some restrictions on the sales of competitors’ products in their MRO pubs. However they will not be able to require that these pubs sell only their products and they will need to satisfy themselves that the requirements they are imposing are compliant with competition law. The restrictions may be placed only on beer and cider products and, crucially, tenants must be able to buy the brewer’s products from any source.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
In the event of marketing arrangements which meant that the only place that beers could be purchased was direct from the brewer, do the provisions take account of the fact that the tenant’s right to do so might be difficult to put into practice?
Jo Swinson
The adjudicator could look into whether practices were all fair and whether the code had been properly complied with. Depending on the circumstances, competition law may also be relevant. The companies would have to assure themselves that any restrictions that they were placing were compliant with competition law. Through the new code and the adjudicator we will make sure that there is somebody who can look into the circumstances and arbitrate on whether what is being offered is fair and compliant with the statutory code.
For completeness, I shall touch on three other important areas of debate both here and in the other place where the Government have made important commitments to use existing powers in the Bill. On Report in this House, I committed to consider calls to exempt genuinely short-term agreements from the pubs code. My noble Friend Baroness Neville-Rolfe confirmed that the Government would use the power in clause 68 to exclude from the code tied pubs that are operated on short-term tenancy at will and temporary agreements that do not extend beyond a certain limited period. We intend to consult on the length of the period for exemption.
Hon. Members will remember that pub franchise agreements are in scope of our measures. They are, after all, tied pub agreements and share many of the characteristics of traditional tied pubs. Nevertheless, consistent calls have been made in both Houses to exempt certain franchise agreements from the code, or at least from MRO, if they do not charge rent and the price of products does not affect the tenant’s share of income. After much consideration, my noble Friend the Minister announced in the other place that the Government will use the power in clause 68 to exempt genuine franchises from the MRO provisions. The remaining code protections—for example, in respect of transparency—will still apply.
Given the differences between traditional tied pubs and genuine franchise agreements, we consider this a reasonable exemption. We will consult on the precise definition of “genuine franchise”, but we expect it to include criteria such as where a turnover fee rather than a rent is paid by the tenant and the share of the profit is unaffected by the price paid for tied products. This is important as these criteria can mean that the tenant’s interests are arguably more aligned with those of the pub company because both rely on a fixed proportion of turnover. The tenant in such circumstances does not face the combination of the wet and dry rent, as tenants do in traditional agreements.
There are other agreements in the industry which may be marketed as a pub franchise that display elements common to franchises in other sectors, such as common branding. But if they charge tenants a tied rent in the traditional way, they are not inherently fairer than a tied pub agreement. The consultation will allow us to set out the criteria for a genuine franchise.
In addition, I should clarify that where a franchise pub falls within the definition of a tied pub in clause 65, it will count towards the number of tied pubs that a company owns for the purposes of the 500 tied pub threshold. This will ensure that we do not create a loophole in the legislation. Furthermore, the Government would be able to amend the regulations should there be attempts to use this exemption as a means of avoiding the legislation.
Next, I come to the matter of investment. Hon. Members will recall that Government committed to avoiding unintended consequences in introducing this legislation. In the other place, and in discussions with stakeholders, concerns were raised as to whether investment in tied pubs could be discouraged because of uncertainty as to whether a tied tenant might trigger MRO. Views vary as to the extent of this risk to investment, but the Government consider that we should act to minimise any risk. We want to ensure that investment in pubs can take place and that pubs thrive. I am sure that sentiment is shared across the House.
The Bill as drafted does not prevent pub companies from issuing a tenant with a new lease alongside an offer of investment, and no amendment to the Bill is necessary to enable companies to do so. This would, in effect, provide a waiver from the rent review and renewal MRO triggers for five years. However, the Government recognise that significant investments may warrant a longer period of return on investment. My noble Friend the Minister therefore announced in the other place that the Government will use existing powers in clause 41 to set out in the code different rent assessment periods for different amounts of substantial capital investment offered. This will have the effect of deferring the rent assessment trigger for MRO for a longer period. It is important to note, though, that the other MRO triggers—that of a significant price increase and an economic event that impacts on a tenant’s trade—will remain throughout the deferral period.
Alongside setting out the deferral periods for different levels of investment, the secondary legislation will set out important safeguards for tenants—for example, to ensure that they accept an investment offer only after taking proper advice and that they cannot be pressurised. This is an area where both sides of the debate recognise that the need to enable investment and the need to protect tenants must go hand in hand. It is important that we can consult fully on the details so that we get it right.
These commitments regarding exemptions for certain tenancy at will, temporary and franchise agreements, and for a deferral of MRO in return for substantial investment, are not on the face of the Bill. They will be set out in secondary legislation after full public consultation.
I shall touch briefly on a number of technical amendments in this group before turning to the second issue in the group. Amendments 34 to 37 are technical clarifications to the “no worse off” and “fair and lawful dealing” principles. The key change is to make it clear that tied pub tenants should not be worse off than they would be if they were not subject to any product or service tie. Amendments 35, 36, 38, 42 and 48 to 54 are consequential on the changes made to clause 66 in this House to exclude family brewers from the provisions. This change means the legislation will apply only to a pub-owning business with 500 or more tied pubs. There are further minor technical amendments, on which I refer honourable Members to the explanatory notes for a fuller explanation.
Finally, amendments 136, 137, 138, 140 and 141 relate to adjudicator staffing and the point that I made earlier in response to the hon. Gentleman. They amend schedule 1 to enable the adjudicator to second staff from any source, in addition to the existing power in the Bill for the adjudicator to second from the public sector. The aim is to provide the necessary flexibility for the adjudicator to find suitable staff from a wider pool.
I am sure the House will agree that throughout our debates in both Houses all the pubs measures have been thoroughly scrutinised. Incorporating the market rent only option into the Bill in the limited time available to us and ensuring that it will work in practice has not been easy, but I believe that we have produced legislation that promises to be effective as well as targeted and proportionate. Crucially, these measures mark an historic moment for tied tenants of pub-owning companies. They will have the protections of a statutory code with a powerful and independent adjudicator to enforce that code. That the measures have the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West, CAMRA, Fair Pint and others is testament to that, so I hope the House will agree to the amendments.
Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
I understand that the provisions on staff secondment require the Secretary of State’s approval. Can my hon. Friend give the House an example of the circumstances in which a Secretary of State might refuse such approval?
Jo Swinson
Clearly, the intention is to make sure that the adjudicator is able to recruit staff with the requisite expertise and experience, not only from the public sector pool. That is an important change and we have learned from the legislation that we have in place for the Groceries Code Adjudicator. Understandable concerns were raised in Committee about whether staff would come with vested interests. It is important that protections are in place to ensure that everybody can have confidence in the staff who are seconded, and to ensure that up-to-date experience of industry does not entail a conflict of interest.
On amendment 86 and the important matter of pay transparency, I am delighted to reiterate the Government’s support for this amendment to the employment part of the Bill that was introduced in the other place. We have already legislated in this Parliament to ensure that companies which directly discriminate against women in pay matters can be required by a tribunal to complete a gender pay audit, as well as to pay compensation. The new provision requires the next Government to make regulations under section 78 of the Equality Act 2010 within 12 months of the Bill receiving Royal Assent. Section 78 requires mandatory reporting of gender pay information by larger companies.
It is 45 years since the Equal Pay Act, and although the gender pay gap is at its lowest ever level and has been virtually eliminated for full-time workers under the age of 40, it is simply not acceptable that in 2015 we still have a gender pay gap at all. We are determined to eliminate it entirely.
Toby Perkins
I endorse what the Minister says about the need to deal with this matter urgently. Given that urgency, will she explain why the provision she is now bringing forward under the Equality Act 2010 has been sitting on the statute book for five years? Why is it that only at the fag end of this Parliament are we seeing some action, which the Opposition have been calling for throughout those years?
Jo Swinson
The hon. Gentleman says that the Opposition have been calling for this throughout this Parliament, but unfortunately that was not the case when they were in government. I refer him to the Hansard report of proceedings on the Equality Bill on 24 June 2009, when the then Labour Minister said that
“having mandatory arrangements in force by 2011 would run the risk of riding roughshod over the legitimate voice of both sides of the business community. Progress can better be made by bringing employers with us—by including, encouraging and cajoling, rather than compelling.”
My right hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) responded:
“We cannot wait another four years…It is clear that we must take action now”.––[Official Report, Equality Bill Public Bill Committee, 23 June 2009; c. 410-432.]
We have got agreement in the Government to take that forward, but I have to say that the context of the commitments made from this Dispatch Box by the previous Labour Government during the passage of the Equality Act—they committed to a voluntary approach before implementing the legislation—certainly did not make that easier. None the less, I am delighted that we are now where we are.
Toby Perkins
It is a great pleasure to speak on the amendments proposed by the noble Lords.
On 16 July, we debated the Second Reading of this Bill. It was interesting, in preparing for this debate, to re-read the contributions that were made then and those that have been made by Labour Members in both Houses during its subsequent stages. Though modesty would usually prevent me from quoting extensively from the contribution that I made, it would be strange not to reflect on how widely our critique of the Bill has been adopted by the Government. We said that it had the potential to make a real difference to small businesses but that the steps that it originally proposed were a collection of faint nods in the right direction of key issues that had emerged under this Government. We said that far more robust action would be needed if this Bill was to deliver on the steps small businesses required and to take action on things like abuses of the labour market and their impact on workers in every constituency in the land. On the subject of pubs, we said that a successful small business Bill—a Labour small business Bill—would have introduced a code with a market rent only option, which the Bill now indeed contains. It would be churlish not to recognise that the Government have ultimately acted in good faith on pub company legislation.
I should place it on the record that this is the last piece of legislation that the Minister will be bringing through in this Parliament. As we fast approach the general election, who knows when will be the next time a Liberal Democrat Minister will have the opportunity to bring through a piece of legislation? She has done a good job in reflecting the wishes of the House and has acted in good faith on pub company regulation.
Their lordships’ amendments broadly achieve the objective of striking the devilishly difficult balance between proper protection for pub tenants while not imposing an overly rigid straitjacket on the industry with the potential to discourage future investment. They are positive steps forward that have faithfully built on the spirit of the historic clause 42 proposed by the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). We recognise that some aspects of the proposals will sensibly need to be included in the pubs code through secondary legislation.
There remains the thorny issue of the right of the tenant to offer a substantial investment in their public house in exchange for giving up the right to use the next rent review period as a trigger to request an MRO assessment. The letter dated 16 March from the Minister, Baroness Neville-Rolfe, to the noble Lords Mendelsohn and Stevenson details the Government’s intentions with regard to new clause 43 and specifies that it must not be used to abuse the waiver. However, this will still leave those who fought this cause for many years with considerable unease that this creates the potential for too broad an exemption for too small an investment.
We entirely agree with the Government that encouraging future investment in the stock of public houses is a crucial element in the future success of the industry, but, over four months since the original victory for clause 42, that still leaves a huge unanswered question about the scale of investment that constitutes “substantial”. I think that my party’s record on this issue means that campaigners will have confidence that the statutory code that addresses it under a future Labour Government will be consistent with the approach—
Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman mentioned his party’s position on investment. What scale of investment does he believe would constitute “substantial”?
Toby Perkins
That is an excellent question. The whole reason this issue is being placed in secondary legislation is that we recognise that there is a very difficult balance to strike. The formula needs to be dependent on the relationship of the investment to the value of the pub. For some pubs, a £30,000 investment might be substantial. For a town centre or city centre pub, a £200,000 investment might not be so substantial. There needs to be some sort of relationship between the rateable value of a pub, the amount that it turns over, and the amount of investment.
The hon. Gentleman is echoing my point, which is that this has been left very open. A great deal of work would need to be done. I assure the House that under a future Labour Government the principles laid out by Baroness Neville-Rolfe are exactly how we would see this. I anticipate that the same would be true of a Liberal Democrat-influenced Administration, although it would be good to hear the Minister clarify that. It would also be good to hear from the Conservative party whether its manifesto will follow the Bill’s principles, or whether it will take a different approach. The industry and campaigners have the right to expect that.
The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew Hancock)
For the record, the Conservative party’s position on this issue is exactly the same as that of the Government.
Toby Perkins
Excellent. I am glad that that has been placed on the record. That will give people considerable confidence in the Bill, and many campaigners will be grateful to hear what the Minister has just said. In the unlikely event of a Conservative victory, we will hold him to it.
Toby Perkins
We understand that Lynton Crosby has been telling the Conservatives to get ready for the past four or five months, but they never seem to reach the point he promises. We will no doubt debate that over the next six weeks.
The Government’s Lords amendment 39 replaces clause 42. We were proud to support the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Leeds North West. We did not think that Report stage was the time to get into a detailed discussion of all the nuances of each individual line, and we know that a tremendous amount of work went into drafting a clause that would offer all the necessary protections. We felt, however, that ultimately it was too prescriptive and could have unintended consequences, and we are pleased to have worked with the Government on the drafting of the new provision.
Lords amendment 39 retains the triggers of renewal of tenancy, rent assessments and significant and unexpected price increases or other events beyond the tenant’s control that have a significant impact on their level of trade. The amendment omits the transfer of title and administration triggers that were in the original clause.
On balance, we support that omission, albeit not without reservation. We believe that the impact on the natural order of a competitive market that would have resulted from pub tenants having the right to opt out at the point of transfer of title would have caused a real disincentive to invest. Ironically, it would have meant that when a pub was sold from a major pub chain to a microbrewer, fledgling pub operator or family brewer, the MRO could have been triggered, acting as a disincentive to the sort of business transaction we want to support and encourage as part of the diversification of the pub market.
That means that campaigners and the next Government will need to be vigilant to prevent any attempts to use the amendment to game the legislation and exempt from the rights companies with any association with companies that we would expect the legislation to cover. The Minister in the other place has made specific the Government’s intentions and we have heard that there is consistency across the coalition.
On the subject of tenants of pub-owning companies that go into administration, we fear that, at a time when the whole future of a large number of pubs would be very uncertain, the original provision would have made the task of the administrator a great deal more difficult. When they would be attempting to bring order to a complicated situation, some of the stock they were trying to sell off to new providers would disappear and move into the free trade sector. We concluded that that would make it much more difficult for pubs to survive in the event of a major pub-owning company failure. For those reasons, we support those omissions from Lords amendment 39.
On Lords amendments 47 to 53, we are pleased that the Government have not sought to reintroduce to the code pub-owning companies with fewer than 500 pubs. The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) and I have enjoyed many a to and fro on the subject during the Bill’s various stages, but I remain of the view that, in voting the way we did, some egregious practices may not be covered by the protections. However, without that concession, we would have been less likely to win the support of the House for the MRO option. In the final analysis, that prize was worth the sacrifice. As a gesture of good will to the industry and as a matter of honour, this House should stick to what we have given it to believe we were legislating on, namely a code containing provisions for businesses owning more than 500 pubs. We are therefore pleased to support the Government’s commitment.
The Government have probably got the balance right in Lords amendment 47, which accepts our suggestion of extending code protections—apart from the MRO option—to tenants whose pubs are sold from a pub-owning company covered by the Bill’s provisions to a company outside the Bill’s scope.
Lords amendment 46 also performs a delicate balancing act by retaining the protection for pub-owning brewers to offer free of tie while also retaining their right to insist that their product is marketed. The question I asked the Minister is important, because some pub-owning brewers might think that retaining their stock and the right to market it is more important than their wholesale business. In that eventuality, if a brewer stops selling through their wholesale business, which they are perfectly entitled to do, a tenant who is in principle free of tie will still be forced, under the provision, to buy from that brewer as the only option available. We will need to look at that again.
Andrew Griffiths
I draw the House’s attention to my chairmanship of the all-party group on beer, and to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
This has been a contentious and on some occasions ill-tempered debate. That is a great shame, because ultimately we all want the same thing—to achieve a thriving industry. We want British pubs to succeed, to reduce the number of pub closures that have gone on over decades in this country and to stop such closures taking place. We need legislation that will allow the industry to do that.
The Government have obviously listened to the will of the House. I put forward a particular view—I had concerns about the unintended consequence of the Bill—but the House took a different view. The Government have listened to that view, and they have been honourable in how they have proposed changes to the legislation. Nobody who voted on Second Reading can have any concerns about the Government not having done the honourable thing in listening to the will of the House, so I commend them.
We are all looking for the outcome that more pubs thrive, survive and are successful, but I just draw the attention of hon. Members to my concerns about unintended consequences. We have heard the phrase “the beer orders” on many occasions, and we have looked at what Lord Young and the then Government did in relation to legislation on brewers and pubs. The unintended consequence of that legislation was to put the industry in a worse position: it actually led to the creation of the pubcos that so many people now argue against vehemently, and it had a terribly detrimental impact on the industry and on the sustainability and profitability of pubs. I urge the Government, in continuing to develop their legislation, to be aware of the unintended consequences of their actions.
One particular point to which I draw the House’s attention is the issue of investment. This is an industry. Yes, we love our community pubs, which are an important part of our society, and we all appreciate the work they do in our constituencies. However, such pubs have to be viable—profitable and successful—businesses for the people who invest in them. We all recognise that in the modern world, where there is the constant redevelopment and repackaging of the offering in the service industry, be it from Starbucks, Costa Coffee or the local pub, there is a dramatic need for investment. If a pub does not have investment, looks shabby and down-at-heel, does not feel modern and is not well-kept, the public will vote with their feet. They have so many other places to go to. They can enjoy their time at home or go to one of the many coffee shops, restaurants and other premises on the high street.
Investment is essential if we are to develop our pub estate, improve the offering and the customer experience, and encourage more people to use the pub. That is what we have to do. The reality is that people are drinking less and going to pubs less. We have to allow the industry to provide a product that encourages people to leave their homes and visit our pubs. Investment is essential if we are to achieve that.
I therefore urge the Government to look carefully at the secondary legislation that they bring forward. We need the companies that are investing in our pubs to have certainty. Investing in a pub can cost more than £50,000 and in some cases as much as £150,000 or £200,000. If companies are to make that investment, it is essential that they have some certainty about the return on their investment. If we cut off the supply of investment, it will be to the detriment of our pubs and we will see them go backwards. I therefore urge the Government, when they come forward with secondary legislation, to listen to the industry. It needs certainty.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
It is a pleasure to speak at the final stage of this important Bill. I shall of course speak about the pubs code. I am delighted that there is a string of amendments from the other place which I and my colleagues on the all-party parliamentary save the pub group and the Fair Deal for Your Local campaign can support and welcome.
I thank all Members from all parts of the House who voted for the market rent only option on 18 November 2014, which will go down as a historic day for the British pub. I thank the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) for bringing his side firmly behind that proposal. I especially thank the Government Members who had the courage to defy their Whip in what was the only defeat of the Government Whip in this Parliament.
I warmly welcomed it when the Government said that they would accept the will of the House. However, as most right hon. and hon. Members know, it appeared that that would not to be the case a few weeks ago. I and others expressed concern when, at the Grand Committee stage in the House of Lords, we no longer had a workable market rent only option that would definitely be introduced at a certain trigger point. We had to get that back into the Bill and we did.
I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), and all the other Ministers, including the Minister for Business and Enterprise. I thank the whole team who have worked on this issue. It has been a challenge for all of them to balance the different views. In the end, they have achieved that. They have achieved something remarkable: a proposal that people accept will be the future of the tied pub sector.
I must express a few notes of concern because this is not the end of the matter. I was not sure whether to raise a pint this evening or next week when the Bill has gained Royal Assent, so I have decided to do both. This is not the end of the matter, because we still have the passage of the statutory instruments and the consultation over the pubs code, which will take a year. I and others will certainly be engaged in that. We understand and support the principle, but we must get it right.
Let me say firmly that there must not be any watering down of the fundamental principle in the Bill—[Interruption.] As the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) said, that would be as disgraceful as watering down the beer, and just as illegal. We must ensure that that principle is honoured, whoever is in government after the election—a question that none of us can answer at the moment.
I wish to say quite forcefully that we must not be fooled by the idea that somehow the beer orders were the problem; it was the watering down of the beer orders as a result of industry lobbying that led to the tragedy and disaster of the beer orders. That watering down happened in the House of Lords, and I am delighted that this time we have collectively managed to stop it. It was precisely that watering down, with large companies saying, “Okay, well you’re going to legislate the beer orders, but give us that loophole and allow us to have that freedom if we don’t brew beer”, which led to the problem, although I believe we have avoided it this time.
A number of changes have been made to the clause, but it does not apply to all tenants of large companies as we intended it to. If someone exercises their right to take the market rent only option, they suddenly exclude themselves from any protection under the code, which seems strange and perverse. Despite all the sound and fury, the market rent option is only the right to an independent rent assessment on a free-of-tie basis, and the right to pay that. There is no logic in saying that it should apply only to tied or part-tied tenants, and not to any tenant who believes that they may be being exploited at their rent review.
The loopholes in the beer orders are the problem, and an obvious loophole—a new vehicle for some of the large, less scrupulous companies to exploit—allows companies to have excessive rental only agreements and excessive costs for insurance. There is an insurance scam in parts of the industry whereby people are forced to pay considerably more for insurance to their pub-owning company, even on a free-of-tie basis, than they would if they got insurance on the open market. The Government must be aware of that.
Clearly we would have liked the sale of a pub to be a trigger, but I welcome the fact that the Government have sought to deal with the issue. We shall look further at the detail of the measure because there is a problem with companies, including developers, buying pubs and using the terms of tied agreements to force people out of those pubs so that they can get vacant possession and develop a site. There is a danger that large companies will seek to use the loophole to put themselves deliberately into administration, restructure and form smaller companies that would come under the limit, and then carry on business as usual.
Investment is clearly a big issue, and I have had helpful and sensible discussions with Heineken, Greene King and Marston’s—all sustainable companies that will continue to survive and thrive. As I have made clear, it was never our intention to stop or discourage investment in pubs, and one of the biggest problems of the tied pubco model was the grotesque lack of investment—those scruffy pubs with the threadbare carpets that people could tell were Punch Taverns or Enterprise Inns pubs. Investment was left to the tenants, but they were not able to invest anything in their pub. James Baer of Amber Taverns said that the large companies were walking around with as much debt as Lance Armstrong had dope in his arm, and that that was one of the biggest problems in the pub sector—stopping investment in pubs.
The intention behind our clause was always that if two partners agreed an investment, there would be a new rent and therefore no need for a rent review for another five years. We must avoid any sense that the market rent only option can or will be waived for investment that happens before a tenant signs an agreement, or signs up to one during a tenancy at will. Often the previous tenant asked for that investment but it was refused, even if it should have been made anyway to keep the pub in a fit state to let in the first place. That is not the kind of investment we should be talking about.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I shall not linger long on this matter, although it has been very complicated and at times the debate has been robust. This is a victory for Parliament. The Bill has been properly contested and thoroughly debated, and the outcome is impressive. I want to signal my support for the amendments today and for the overall direction of the debate.
During the passage of the Bill there were times when we disagreed, but those disagreements were based on a deep belief that we had to get it right. Overall, that is what has happened. I take on board the points relating to the code and to delegated legislation. It is absolutely right that more thinking will need to be done. Fundamentally, however, the direction of travel is now correct. Some of my concerns have been responded to properly by the House of Lords, which is absolutely fabulous. I think that anyone watching this debate will have been impressed by the way in which the two Houses have worked together to deal with this complicated Bill. They have produced an outcome that is good for the pub industry, good for the brewing industry and good for our communities and our pubs.
Ultimately, we want successful pubs and successful breweries. I want pubs in my constituency to continue to thrive and for brewers to feel confident about opportunities in the marketplace in the years ahead. Small brewers need to be supported and promoted. The changes made to the Bill in the past few months will do exactly that. I therefore have great pleasure in signalling my support for the Bill today.
Jo Swinson
With the leave of the House, I wish to respond briefly to the debate and thank hon. Members for their contributions. The hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) was kind. As others have said, this is an example of where the Government have listened, Parliament has spoken and we have worked genuinely with stakeholders and people from all parties to come to the right outcome.
Some outstanding concerns have been raised. The hon. Gentleman asked whether the investment waiver would end up being too broad for too little investment, and obviously it is important that we consult to get those details right. He also sought clarity as to whether the principles laid out would be upheld. The Minister for Business and Enterprise made the Conservative position clear in an intervention, and I am happy to confirm that the Liberal Democrats stand behind these principles. I hope that the consensus across the three main parties on those principles will give the industry and tenants some welcome confidence, certainty and reassurance.
My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) was concerned about potential unintended consequences, and my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) about some of the issues still to be discussed when we come to the secondary legislation. It is right that these matters be discussed properly during the secondary legislation phase and that we get them right. The long string of amendments to which my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West referred is testimony to the challenge of the detail we had to go into to get the issues right, and in that connection I would like to put on record my thanks to the officials who have worked tirelessly on this—not one of the more straightforward policy areas in the Department—over the last few months. I owe them a great deal of thanks for the wonderful job they have done.
There are issues still to be wrangled over come the secondary legislation stage, but I do not know whether I will be the Minister or if somebody else will have the great joy of steering that through the House. These are debates for another day. Today we should just be pleased with the proposed primary legislation before us.
Lords amendment 34 agreed to.
Lords amendments 35 to 62, 86, 132 and 136 to 141 agreed to.
Clause 3
Companies: duty to publish report on payment practices
Matthew Hancock
I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendments 2 to 33, 63 to 85, 87 to 131, 133 to 135 and 142 to 193.
Matthew Hancock
With only a few days remaining in this Parliament, the Government continue to work tirelessly to make the UK the best place in the world to start and grow a business. We are proud of our record over this Parliament, including the 760,000 extra businesses, the 2.2 million extra jobs that business has created and the rising pay that has benefited millions. This has been possible only because of our unstinting and unambiguous support for businesses. Last week’s Budget built on this record with a fundamental review of business rates, and last week we set out our intentions for using the new prompt payment transparency powers. The Bill takes this commitment to support small business further. It is the first ever small business Bill and I hope will shortly become the first ever small business Act.
In the other place, the Bill was, as we would expect, subjected to careful and robust scrutiny, and I am grateful to Baroness Neville-Rolfe for ably steering it through the other place, where it was enhanced and improved. As part of that, several amendments were made, both substantive and technical. The Government supported all the successful amendments, and I hope that the House will agree them today. I shall go through each in turn, beginning with late payment. The Bill takes unprecedented steps to tackle late payment, so understandably the matter was debated in detail in this House and the other place. Late payment is a major issue for businesses large and small, and we are taking steps in the Bill and elsewhere to bring an end to the UK’s late payment culture once and for all.
Transparency has a pivotal role to play. Clause 3 introduces a tough new prompt payment reporting requirement for the UK’s largest companies. In the other place, this clause was further strengthened by amendments 1 to 3, which insert a reference to performance on the face of the Bill and make express reference to late payment interest as an example of the type of information that will be included in the report. Beyond the Bill, we have strengthened the prompt payment code with our announcement last month that 30-day payment terms will be the norm of acceptable behaviour, with 60 days as the maximum in all but exceptional circumstances. The public sector will play its part, as 30-day terms are now legally required right down the public sector supply chain.
The transparency measures in the Bill will shine a light on poor payment practices and make a company’s payment terms a reputational boardroom issue. We will drive a culture change to redress the current economic imbalance of power between large companies and their suppliers. The amendments under consideration today will help to ensure suppliers are fairly compensated. We are determined to make 30-day terms the norm and 60 days the maximum acceptable payment terms. With this Bill, we will make unacceptable late payment a thing of the past.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
I very much welcome what the Minister said and I welcome the clause. When I was running a small business of my own, late payments bedevilled the business, and it was always the larger companies that were responsible for it. I am very glad that this amendment is being made.
Matthew Hancock
I am grateful for that intervention. I, too, have personal experience of poor payment performance having a massive impact on the businesses I worked in. Frankly, the late payment culture is a problem with our contract law. Good contract law means good payment against a contract. I think these transparency measures will have a significant impact, changing prompt payment from being an issue for finance directors to being an issue for the board. Through these transparency measures, we will not allow it to be deemed reasonable to pay late. I think that 60 days as a maximum and 30 days as a norm is a perfectly reasonable place to settle.
Toby Perkins
I fear that the Minister is rather over-selling the measures he proposes, welcome though they are. When he says that 30 days will be the norm and 60 days the exception and nothing beyond it, will he make clear what happens when businesses do not pay within that time frame? What sanctions will they face under this new regime?
Matthew Hancock
There are already sanctions under EU law relating to interest payments, but the transparency measures will crucially mean that we can have league tables of payment performance. The transparency in this area, alongside the public sector payment practices, will change the culture. We considered and debated in detail going further in changing contract law, but a contract is signed up to by both sides, and no practical amendment was put down to make it more binding than the existing law, which already says that 60 days should be the maximum unless both sides agree to it. Any contract, of course, has to be agreed to by both sides. It is a matter of finding a way to make this practical in law.
Part 2 deals with regulatory reform, and the Bill brings forward significant measures to reduce the burden of regulation. The small business appeals champion will ensure that small businesses’ concerns about regulators are heard. There was extensive debate in the other place on whether the Equality and Human Rights Commission should be excluded from these measures.
We have always maintained that the EHRC should not be subject to the duty to appoint a champion and had originally considered that an exemption in secondary legislation would be sufficient. Concerns were expressed, however, that this might put at risk the EHRC’s “A” status as a national human rights institution. In the light of those concerns, we agreed to eliminate this potential risk by excluding the EHRC from scope of the duty on the face of the Bill.
On the business impact target, the other place questioned the definition of voluntary and community bodies in clause 27. The Government listened to this concern and amendment 28 simplifies the definition by removing the minimum membership threshold for certain smaller unincorporated associations. It also ensures that such bodies are not excluded from the proposed definitions of small and micro businesses later in the Bill by virtue of the size of their membership. Those are relatively technical changes. The principle of a business impact target to ensure that in future Governments are transparent—as this Government have been—about the impact of their overall regulatory approach on the burdens of business was well supported, and is made clear in the Bill.
Toby Perkins
The Minister questioned whether the amendments will have the support of the Opposition. They will do, of course; we proposed a good deal of them, so it would be rather foolish for us not to be supporting them at this stage. He is right to say the Bill arrives back in this House in stronger order than it left it. It looks far more like the kind of small business Bill I was talking about back in July 2014 when I said the Government ought to be taking far greater steps, and I agree with the Minister that the Bill is improved.
We said steps needed to be taken to strengthen enforcement of the compensatory award in employment tribunal cases. We are pleased that the Government have today announced a naming and shaming programme that will ensure exposure of businesses that do not pay compensatory awards identified by a tribunal. We said that insolvency creditors meetings were an important part of our world-class regime and we are glad the Government accepted our amendment on that. We are glad, too, that the Government decided to exempt the Equality and Human Rights Commission from the work of the small business appeals champion—although not from the growth duty section of the Deregulation Bill, as we called for at the time. On late payment as well, we have been saying for a long time that stronger action was needed. I am therefore bound to say that the fact that these are issues Her Majesty’s Opposition have been raising, from abuse of zero-hours contracts to late payments to small firms, and from non-payment of the national minimum wage to supplier pay and stay deals—an area of pub company legislation we have already discussed—shows that it is the Opposition who have been leading the way, and the Government have been following us reluctantly.
It rather undermines the charge that Labour is anti-business when the Government keep taking action in so many of the ways we have called for. I know the Government have form in this regard; they used to suggest UKIP was mad before they adopted its No. 1 policy. However, we support the principle that the Government should be willing to listen and take action where they have got things wrong, and we think the Bill before us today is a good deal stronger as a result of that.
I want to take up the Minister’s challenge on late payments. As I said in my intervention, he is overplaying his hand when he suggests that the measures brought forward, welcome though they are, signal the end of egregious late payment practices. The steps the Minister has taken on the public sector are welcome. Particularly at the time of the bank-induced global economic crisis, the previous Labour Government took significant steps to ensure that the public sector paid on time and this is putting that on to a more permanent footing, which is a positive step. However, the Minister suggested that the transparency he is introducing will create a reputational risk that means businesses and boardrooms around the country will think carefully before paying late. While the way this is going to be marketed will be different, many of the transparency measures proposed here are currently available if people choose to look. There has been no reputational risk for many of the companies that have operated in that way.
In response to what the Minister said a few minutes ago, the truth is that no new sanctions have been proposed. He said that businesses could avail themselves of the sanctions in the EU late payment directive, but they have been able to do that for several years. If a major business chooses to say, “We’ll supply you, but our terms are 90 days”, a small business will have the choice of whether to deal with it on those terms or not at all. That means that nothing has changed, and we are still in exactly the same position.
The steps that the Government are proposing on late payment are fine, as far as they go, but this is a missed opportunity. I am willing to predict that, in the next Parliament, we will not consider this issue to have been dealt with and that, at some point in the next four or five years, we will all be back here discussing late payment again and saying that something must be done, that we must change the culture, that we need to get across to businesses that late payments are unacceptable, and that we need greater transparency so that small businesses know what they are letting themselves in for. My right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) stated powerfully at the Federation of Small Businesses conference last week that late payments are one of the great scandals in our economy. Small businesses are disadvantaged by the practice, and more should have been done.
Clause 3 initially created a duty for companies to publish only their payment policies. We have consistently argued that publishing policies is not enough and that small businesses also need concrete information on the performance in practice, and not just what is written in a policy book. We tabled amendments in Committee in the Commons and on Report in the Lords that would have created a compulsory reporting regime to ensure that large companies’ reporting records would be open to quarterly scrutiny with automatic interest paid for late payment. The Government voted down our proposals on both occasions. The Minister said a few minutes ago that no practicable proposals had been tabled in this regard, but that is not true. We tabled specific proposals that would have put the late payment directive on a statutory footing. He might have decided that he did not want to support our proposals, but it is not true to say that they did not exist.
However, we are pleased that the Government have made some concessions and accepted our fundamental argument that information on performance, as well as policies, must be published. This will allow large companies to be judged by their deeds, not just by their words. However, we believe that there should be a financial backstop, such as an automatic interest payment or a fines regime, as outlined in our proposals. So it remains to be seen how effective the Bill will be. It is stronger as a result of the interventions by the Labour Opposition but more could have been done and, regrettably, we will have to return to this issue in the next Parliament.
The Bill establishes small business appeals champions, whose role will be to watch non-economic Government regulators and encourage them to improve the impact on business of their policies, their processes and their approach on appeals and complaints. In broad terms we welcome this idea, but many bodies have questioned how the champions will work in practice and what relationship they will have with the general growth duty in the Deregulation Bill. We welcome the fact that the Government have taken up our argument that the guidance to the small business appeals champions in relation to the exercise of their functions should be laid before Parliament for full scrutiny and debate.
On Lords amendment 25, we are pleased that the Government have acceded to our demand that the Equality and Human Rights Commission be excluded from any of the regulatory provisions in the Bill. This will relate specifically to the work of the small business appeals champions.
On the subject of creditor meetings, I should like to draw to the attention of the House the donation made to my office of employment support from R3, the insolvency regulator. The intention of the original Bill was to end once and for all the practice of insolvency practitioners holding physical creditor meetings in all types of insolvency procedures. We felt that that was a mistake and that it could disengage creditors and weaken the strength of the world-leading insolvency regime that we have here in the UK. We very much welcome the fact that the Government have listened to some of the specific proposals we made on ensuring that the threshold for a creditors meeting should be changed to
“(a) 10% in value of the creditors;
(b) 10% in number of the creditors;
(c) 10 creditors.”
We think that is a much stronger amendment, providing the support that that industry needs to ensure that it continues to provide a service that gets record amounts of money back to creditors and is also successful in saving jobs and businesses.
Section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
16:57 - The House divided: - Ayes: 300 / Noes: 199 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
I beg to move,
That this House approves, for the purposes of section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Government’s assessment as set out in Budget 2015 and Autumn Statement 2014, combined with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Economic and Fiscal Outlook (2015) and Fiscal Sustainability Report (2014), which forms the basis of the United Kingdom’s Convergence Programme.
As in previous years, the Government inform the Commission of the UK’s economic and budgetary position in line with our commitments under the EU’s stability and growth pact. The Government plan to submit their convergence programme, with the approval of both Houses. The convergence programme explains the Government’s medium-term fiscal policies, as set out in the 2014 autumn statement and Budget 2015, and also includes the Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts. As such, it is based entirely on previously published documents that have been presented to Parliament.
With the Budget on 18 March this year, and the debate much earlier than normal because of the electoral timetable, I appreciate that the time to prepare for this debate has been particularly tight. Against that backdrop the Treasury has made every effort to provide early copies of the convergence programme document in advance of the debate today. The document makes it clear that since 2010 the Government’s long-term economic plan has delivered the stability and security needed to build a resilient economy: the UK had the fastest growth among G7 economies in 2014; employment has reached its highest ever level; and inflation—the consumer prices index—is at a record low. Debt as a share of GDP is now forecast to start falling in 2015-16, meeting the debt target set out in 2010.
There are differing views on the value of submitting that information to the Commission. To be clear, as a result of the UK’s opt out from the single currency, no sanctions can be imposed on the UK as part of this process. The UK’s record is a good one, and there is some value in sharing the UK experience across Europe and demonstrating that there is no conflict between central fiscal consolidation on the one hand and robust economic growth on the other.
Last week’s Budget set out the Government’s assessment of the UK’s medium-term economic and budgetary position. GDP grew 2.6% in 2014, which is the strongest annual growth since 2007 and the fastest in the G7. Debt is forecast to fall as a share of GDP in 2015-16, meeting the debt target set out by the Government in 2010. Borrowing is forecast to be lower in every year to 2018-19 than at autumn statement 2014, and the public finances are forecast to achieve a larger surplus in 2018-19. Falling debt and improving borrowing mean that consolidation can end a year earlier than planned, and that spending will grow in line with GDP in 2019-20. Budget 2015 builds on existing reforms to create a dynamic, regionally balanced and stronger economy. Latest data show that employment is at its highest ever level, with 1.9 million more people in work since the current Government came to power. Business investment has increased by 25.6% since the first quarter of 2010, and the UK will have the joint lowest rate of corporation tax in the G20 from April 2015.
Budget 2015 sets out a significant package of measures for a truly national recovery by investing in infrastructure, housing, and science and innovation across the whole of the UK, and building a northern powerhouse. Fuel duty will be frozen for another year. The Government will substantially reduce oil and gas taxes to improve competitiveness in the North sea. Further support for energy-intensive industries will begin in 2015-16. A comprehensive review of business rates has been launched, and there will be a radical simplification of the tax system by abolishing the annual tax return.
Restoring growth and competitiveness across the EU is critical. The euro area outlook is for slow, but positive growth, supported by lower oil prices and European Central Bank sovereign quantitative easing. The European Commission’s own forecasts from February this year predict growth in 2015 of just 1.7% in the EU as a whole, and 1.3% in the euro area. Some 45% of our exports are destined for the EU and seven of the UK’s top 10 trading partners are EU member states.
The UK recovery has been based on a number of policy responses: supportive monetary policy, clear and credible fiscal consolidation, and structural reform, all of which must mutually reinforce each other. Although the challenges across member states differ, countries across the EU need to consider a similar response, and these processes of European co-ordination, including the sharing of information through the shared reporting of fiscal and reform progress, can play a part in making that happen.
Much of the answer lies in national level reforms such as creating flexible labour markets. Clearly, the European semester has a key role to play in encouraging member states to make ambitious reform commitments, and the UK has an interest in making those reforms happen. However, an ambitious EU-level reform agenda is also a key part of the equation and an essential counterpart to national level reforms.
In conclusion, the Government are committed to ensuring that, in line with section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, this House approves the economic and budgetary assessment that forms the basis of the convergence programme. Following the House’s approval of that assessment, the Government will submit the convergence programme to the European Commission, which is expected to make its recommendations to all EU member states in late May. Those recommendations will then be considered by ECOFIN council and agreed by Heads of State or Governments at the European Council.
The convergence programme explains the Government’s medium-term fiscal policies as set out in the 2014 autumn statement and Budget 2015, and also includes the Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts. As such it is based entirely on previously published documents that have been presented to Parliament. Unlike other member states, the UK does not submit its Budget to the Commission for approval, and cannot be subject to any action or sanctions as a result of its commitments under the stability and growth pact. I look forward to the debate.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to the motion on behalf of the Opposition. Looking back over the corresponding debate last year, I was interested to see that the Minister’s predecessor, the right hon. Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), told the House that, due to the tight timetable,
“the Treasury has made every effort to provide early copies of the convergence programme document in advance of today’s debate.”—[Official Report, 30 April 2014; Vol. 579, c. 851.]
I acknowledge that today the Financial Secretary indicated the difficulties in providing the document in a timely fashion. I received a copy only on Friday. At more than 250 pages long, it was perhaps not ideal, but it certainly made for interesting weekend reading.
Cathy Jamieson
I was just about to say that I know the Minister is courteous and accommodating, so I understand that the delay might have been unavoidable. As he quite often does, he has anticipated a number of the questions and points I intended to raise—indeed, the whole thrust of my remarks is just how familiar some of the documents and the issues they cover are, given that they have been discussed already and are likely to be debated again tomorrow. I hope to be able to do the subject justice this afternoon.
Some things have changed since last year. Looking across the Chamber, I see that, unlike last time, the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) is not in his customary place. I know what a keen interest he normally takes in European matters, having had the pleasure of his company in many European Committees, including one only this morning. As the Minister last year observed, the hon. Gentleman
“could go on for hours and hours on that particular subject.” —[Official Report, 30 April 2014; Vol. 579, c. 854.]
Given his absence from the Chamber this afternoon, the debate might be shorter than was anticipated.
As the Financial Secretary observed, once again we have been provided with a barrage of figures, accompanied by bouts of backslapping, boasts and congratulations from the Government to themselves. The overarching theme of the document is to show just how well the Government have done—and, no doubt, the Government would say that is entirely in order from their perspective. However, the document—and to some extent this debate—is something of an exercise in repackaging. Bits of the Red Book and bits of the Office for Budget Responsibility’s “Economic and fiscal outlook” are spliced together with a new binding—a theme and variations on the Budget, except there is little theme and scant variation. Although the Government can try to repackage the Budget, I would argue that they cannot mask some of the problems we have already raised and the reality of the failure.
Part of me thinks that the Minister’s tune, like the Chancellor’s last week, strikes a pretty discordant note, because the truth is that, under even the mildest scrutiny, the Government’s economic credibility behaves like a sand castle in the waves, melting away before our eyes. Attempts have been made, through choice language and careful presentation, to obscure the impact that this Government have had, and continue to have, on the people and public services of this country. The theme that runs through the Red Book and the report we are discussing today is that everyone can put away their umbrella, because the sun is shining, people across the country are better off, and we should all be very grateful as we walk hand in hand into the sunlit uplands of peace and prosperity. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”]
I hear the cheers from the Government Benches. Hon. Members may wish to wait for the next part of my speech before further congratulating the Government. The picture is very different for the millions of people across the country who are still firmly mired in the slough of despond because of what has happened to their lives. For example, there are those who are £1,600 a year worse off since this Government took office, or those who are £1,100 a year worse off as a result of the tax and benefit changes made by this Government, including the rise in VAT. The hundreds and thousands of people across the country, including many in my constituency, who are forced to rely on food banks—a persistent and pernicious feature of Tory Britain—are not feeling the benefits of the recovery. For them the sun is not shining. They can see through the smoke and mirrors that the Government use to try to paint a glowing picture.
To judge only by the language and tone of the document in which the Government claim to have laid the foundations for a strong economy and a fairer society, one might be forgiven for thinking that the worst was over. In some ways that is the most troubling aspect, because we know that the worst is yet to come. The Chancellor may have shuffled the numbers around, but no shuffling can conceal the truth about the Government’s economic plans. As the OBR said, the Budget will mean
“a much sharper squeeze on real spending in 2016-17 and 2017-18 than anything seen over the past five years”,
and a
“sharp acceleration in the pace of implied real cuts to day-to-day spending on public services”.
Perhaps I do not share the Chancellor’s or the Minister’s sunny disposition, or perhaps I am more in touch with the reality of the lives of people across the country. I do not see much fairness in the document before us or in the Government’s approach. The cuts of more than 5% planned for 2016-17 and 2017-18 are twice the size of any annual cuts in this Parliament. That has resulted in a somewhat erratic trajectory, described by the OBR as a “rollercoaster ride” of public spending. Remarkably, for all the cuts yet to come, the Government continue to repeat the tired mantra that “we are all in this together.”
That is not borne out by the evidence. Wage growth has been stagnant over the course of the Parliament. Energy bills, on the other hand, have gone up by around £300 over the past five years. Although the Government boast of more jobs and high rates of employment, we have to consider what kind of jobs these are. Many are low paid. For evidence of that, one need look no further than the state of the nation’s tax receipts. Income tax receipts and national insurance contributions are £97 billion lower over the course of the Parliament than was forecast in 2010. Jobs are often insecure and uncertain, typified by the over-reliance on zero-hours contracts. Alongside the proliferation of insecure, low-paid jobs, the wealthiest have been handed a £3 billion tax cut, while the poorest have lost out disproportionately from the cuts to tax receipts and the increase in VAT.
Cathy Jamieson
I will give way in a moment.
Labour has announced today that under no circumstances will we increase VAT in the next Parliament. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is about to say something from his Government’s point of view. Perhaps he will give the same assurance.
Simon Kirby
As the hon. Lady mentioned income tax, I was thinking of the millions of people taken out of tax and the 27 million people benefiting from the increases in the personal allowance, many of whom, in my constituency, are among the lowest paid. It is all very well to say that we are helping the rich, but we are helping the low paid even more.
Cathy Jamieson
Under a Labour Government, there would be a new 10p starting rate for tax, and we would also reverse the tax cut for millionaires, which this Government gave and which by no stretch of the imagination can be seen to be fair. It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman did not mention VAT. I assume the Minister does not want to intervene at this point to give me an assurance that his Government would not raise VAT in the next Parliament.
It is worth looking back and considering that this is the first Parliament since the early 1920s in which the average person in work will be worse off at the end than they were at the beginning, and the poorest are worse off than the rest. Last week Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies spelt it out in language that I think everyone, including the Government, can understand:
“Looking only at changes implemented by the coalition the poorest have seen the biggest proportionate losses.”
That sounds pretty conclusive to me: the poor have lost the most.
The Minister has given his account of what will happen, but I think that he has been pretty coy about what is really in store for the future. What about the £12 billion of welfare cuts that the Government have committed to? They have already overspent on their welfare plans by £25 billion over the course of this Parliament, while at the same time imposing the unfair and iniquitous bedroom tax, so it is difficult to see how that £12 billion squeeze will be achieved.
When interviewed by Andrew Neil a few days ago, the Minister gallantly held the Government line and steadfastly refused to say where the cuts will be made. While we can perhaps applaud his loyal and resolute nature, he really should be more forthcoming about just where the axe will fall next, because voters across the country will be wondering what the Government are keeping from us. What more can he tell us today? He appears still not to want to say anything about VAT, so I will move on and deal with the Government’s pretentions to fiscal credibility.
For most people, a Government who are fiscally credible are a Government who meet their own fiscal targets. The budget deficit will be around £90 billion this year, and next year’s budget, far from being balanced, as was promised in 2010, is projected to show a £75 billion deficit. Meanwhile, public sector net debt will be £217 billion higher in 2015-16 than was projected in 2010. How can the Government claim to be credible when they have missed their own targets by such wide margins? The end result of all that failure, all those missed targets and broken promises, is even bigger spending cuts.
As my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor pointed out last week, it really has come to something when a Government are forced to boast that spending as a proportion of GDP will fall only to 1964 levels—levels last seen over 50 years ago. It is not a pretty picture. Close scrutiny of the OBR tables shows that 2018 spending, on the historical comparative measure that the OBR uses for day-to-day spending on public services, will fall to its lowest level since 1938. Despite their best efforts, the Tories are still the party that wants to take us back to the 1930s.
The Red Book is trying to perform a delicate balancing act; it is trying to assure us that the worst is over and that stability has been restored while at the same time plotting deeper cuts than anything we have seen in this Parliament. I think that it is seeking simply to paper over the cracks of failure and evade the debris of broken promises. It is for that reason that we will be voting against the Government’s motion today.
Mr Gauke
We seem to have entered day five of the Budget debate. Let me make one or two brief points in response to the hon. Lady. First, let us remember what the state of the economy was in 2010, and the state of the public finances. Our borrowing levels were over 10% of GDP, which is a peacetime record, and we were forecast to have the highest level of borrowing in the G20. Over half of that amount has now been dealt with, but we have further to go and further steps are needed to deal with borrowing. That is why this House overwhelmingly voted for the charter for fiscal responsibility, which means that the cyclical current budget will be balanced by 2017-18. That is a target that those in all parts of the House signed up to, including Labour Members, but we heard nothing from them during the Budget debates, or today, about how they would meet that ambition. Whereas my party has set out our plans for finding £12 billion from welfare cuts, £13 billion from departmental spending and £5 billion from tax evasion, tax avoidance and aggressive tax planning, we have had no such indications from Labour. There is a huge hole where there should be an Opposition party policy.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman constantly talks about cuts—very unpleasant cuts that are going to affect a lot of poor people—but the real problem is an income problem, because we have a tax gap of £120 billion through evasion and avoidance that the Government refuse to recognise to its full extent. If we looked at the income side and made sure we collected the tax that should be paid, then we could address the problems with the deficit—if they are serious problems—and, at the same time, not inflict cuts on poor people.
Mr Gauke
The Government do not recognise the £120 billion figure, nor did the previous Government or, as far as I am aware, does any statistician. One individual has put that methodology forward, but Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has set out in some detail the numerous flaws within it. As for tax, I agree that it is important that we get the money in. It is worth pointing out that the yield from HMRC’s activities has gone up from £17 billion a year to £26 billion a year under this Government. We have a proud record of collecting more in tax, and we will maintain it.
I do not intend to detain the House for long on this occasion. The fact is that this Government are getting the deficit down, while living standards are going up, employment is going up, and we are fixing the mess that we inherited. Is there more to do? Yes, of course there is, and we hope to have the opportunity to address that over the next five years.
Question put.
Counter-terrorism
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Brokenshire)
I beg to move,
That the draft Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (Risk of Being Drawn into Terrorism) (Amendment and Guidance) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 12 March, be approved.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this we shall take the following motion:
That the Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2015 (S.I., 2015, No. 406), dated 26 February 2015, a copy of which was laid before this House on 27 February, be approved.
James Brokenshire
This secondary legislation has been brought forward to implement measures in the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015. The measures were debated by the House very recently and the primary legislation was enacted only on 12 February. During Parliament’s consideration of the legislation, there was widespread recognition of the threat from terrorism and broad support for the measures in the Bill. The instruments bring to life two of those important provisions. In passing the legislation in February, the House accepted the need for these measures.
I should inform the House that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has considered both the instruments we are debating. I place on the record my appreciation for the forbearance that was shown by the Chair and members of the Committee in considering the instruments outside the normal time scales. The Committee cleared the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (Risk of Being Drawn into Terrorism) (Amendment and Guidance) Regulations 2015, but drew the attention of both Houses of Parliament to the Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2015. I shall return to the issues that were highlighted by the Joint Committee later in my contribution.
It may help the House in its consideration of the instruments if I briefly outline what the Government seek to achieve by them and why we have brought them forward at this time. The regulations have been brought forward in respect of part 5 of the 2015 Act, which is concerned with reducing the risk of people being drawn into terrorism. During the recent debates on the primary legislation, there was a very informed debate on the duty that is imposed by section 26 of the Act, which is known as the Prevent duty. The regulations are crucial to the effective implementation of the new duty.
The purpose of the regulations is threefold. First, they amend schedules 6 and 7 to the 2015 Act to add Scottish bodies to the list of authorities that are subject to the Prevent duty and to those that are listed as partners to local authority panels, which are required to be in place by section 36. Those panels form part of the Channel programme—the deradicalisation programme—in England and Wales, and Prevent Professional Concerns in Scotland, which are programmes designed to provide support to those who are vulnerable to being drawn into terrorism.
Secondly, the regulations make a number of amendments to the Act that are consequential on adding those Scottish bodies. In particular they ensure that Scottish further and higher education institutions will have the same requirement to have particular regard to the need to ensure freedom of speech and the importance of academic freedom while complying with the Prevent duty as their counterparts in England and Wales. It has always been the Government’s intention that provisions in part 5 of the Act would apply to bodies in Scotland. We have consulted Scottish Ministers, and they are supportive of adding Scottish bodies to the duty.
Thirdly and finally, the regulations will bring into effect guidance issued under section 29(1) of the Act for specified authorities in carrying out the Prevent duty. The guidance sets out the detail of what that duty will mean in practice for authorities subject to it, and seeks to explain the steps that should be taken to best secure compliance.
The House will recall that the Government introduced an amendment to the Bill to ensure that the guidance will only take effect following Parliament’s approval. During the passage of the Bill, a formal public consultation on the draft guidance took place, and hon. Members will have read the summary of responses referenced in the explanatory memorandum. More than 1,700 responses were received during the consultation, and another 300 people were reached over the course of five events held in London, Manchester, Birmingham, Cardiff and Edinburgh. The responses enabled a thorough revision to take place, and the results of that revision are now before the House.
There are two versions of the guidance: one for authorities in England and Wales, and a separate one for authorities in Scotland. Following discussions with the Scottish Government, the Government decided that separate guidance that specifically addresses the particular circumstances of Scotland would be more helpful than trying to address those circumstances through one set of guidance. The Scottish guidance has also been subject to consultation through a targeted process undertaken by the Scottish Government.
Hon. Members will have noted that neither document addresses the issue of managing speakers and events in further and higher education institutions. How universities and colleges balance the Prevent duty with the need to secure freedom of speech and have regard to the importance of academic freedom is an extremely important issue that requires careful consideration. On account of that, the Government amended the legislation to ensure that institutions pay particular regard to the importance of academic freedom and freedom of speech when complying with the Prevent duty. As I made clear during the passage of the Bill, that freedom is important in challenging extremist views and providing almost an antidote to some of the extremism that might take place were it not for that challenge. We shall use the time before the duty commences to produce further guidance on managing speakers and events in further and higher education institutions, and it will be for the next Government to bring that to Parliament early in the next Session for the approval of both Houses.
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)
In the context of human rights legislation, and particularly the Human Rights Act 1998 and the charter of fundamental rights, which is increasingly being brought in by the European Court of Justice, does the Minister believe that these proposals, and many aspects of the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015, will survive against those in the human rights lobby who are determined to put human rights ahead even of the prevention of terrorism?
James Brokenshire
Yes, I am confident of that. Obviously, we considered the implications of the Human Rights Act when the primary legislation was taken through this House. That does not necessarily mean that it will not be subject to legal challenge—we have legal challenge for all forms of legislation—but we are confident about the way the measure has been brought forward, and it touches on the competency of member states in national security issues. I recognise the long-standing and consistent approach that my hon. Friend has highlighted, and I am sure he will continue to highlight it to ensure that we get legislation in the right place and properly consider human rights challenges and other issues in that regard. I welcome his intervention.
As for the guidance itself, it is essential that it is accurate and workable for all institutions. It is not the Government’s intention that the duty in respect of higher education and further education institutions should commence for those sectors until guidance on speakers and events has been published. This, as I have explained, will of course be for the next Government to carry through.
It is important to take the opportunity to remind the House of the purpose of the new duty and its importance. The emergence of ISIL and the number of people—particularly vulnerable, young people—who have misguidedly travelled to Syria and Iraq present a heightened threat to our national security. The intelligence agencies tell us that the threat is now worse than at any time since 9/11. It is serious and it is growing. The threat has changed and so must our response.
As part of that response, we need to continue to combat the underlying ideology that feeds, supports and sanctions terrorism, and to prevent people from being drawn on to that path. The Prevent duty will ensure that such activity is consistent across the country and in all bodies whose staff work on the front line with those at risk from radicalisation.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Minister place on record his support for the work being done by a group in my constituency to tackle the root causes and extremist ideologies that have been affecting people in Cardiff? They are doing fantastic work as part of the Movement for Change “Make a Choice, See a Change” campaign online and with their peers to combat ideology that may have affected some people in their community.
James Brokenshire
I commend the hon. Gentleman for highlighting the work of community groups in his constituency. Some incredible people and organisations are standing up against terrorism, highlighting the peaceful nature of the Islamic religion and challenging some of the ideological underpinning that has been perversely twisted by those who support ISIL and other terrorist and extremist organisations. It is the work of community, family and people in the locality and the neighbourhood that is making a real difference in standing together and confronting and combating pernicious ideology. This is a generational struggle. Bringing forward the guidance and the Prevent duty underlines the important responsibility we all have—government, community, family and individuals—to stand together to ensure that a clear and robust message is given. I know that good work is taking place in Cardiff and in many other parts of the country to do precisely that. I welcome the opportunity to put that on the record this afternoon.
I would like to turn now to the Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2015. The Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 introduced temporary exclusion orders, which enable the Secretary of State to disrupt and control the return to the UK of certain British citizens suspected of engaging in terrorism-related activity abroad. TEOs also enable the Secretary of State to impose certain requirements on individuals on their return to the UK.
The House will recall that the Government introduced two stages of judicial oversight of this power during the passage of the Bill. The first stage requires the Secretary of State to seek permission from the courts prior to imposing a TEO or, in exceptional circumstances, to seek such permission from the courts retrospectively. The second stage provides a statutory review mechanism to enable the TEO subject to challenge the imposition of the order and any obligations imposed on their return to the UK. That judicial oversight was introduced in response to concerns raised by right hon. and hon. Members on all sides of the House, and was welcomed during consideration of the amendments made in another place.
The Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2015 are required to implement this judicial oversight in England and Wales. The instrument introduces the court rules for temporary exclusion order proceedings in the High Court and appeals to the Court of Appeal, which are essential to ensure we are able to operate the appropriate safeguards for this power. I have already mentioned that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has reported this instrument and drawn it to the attention of the House.
The Government have acknowledged the issues raised by the Joint Committee and committed to updating the rules by an amending instrument as soon as practicable. That amending instrument will be made by the Civil Procedure Rule Committee, and I can assure the House that the process for doing so is already under way. However, as the Government made clear in their response to the Joint Committee, we do not consider that the drafting errors acknowledged render the rules invalid or inoperable. The court rules are required in order to implement the important judicial oversight of TEOs in England and Wales.
Sir William Cash
My hon. Friend can probably guess that I am about to ask a question similar to my last one about judicial oversight, the charter and human rights legislation. I am sure he recognises that there is a potentiality, if not a certainty, that these matters will be challenged, particularly the exclusion orders. Does he not think that there is still time to consider imposing a restriction on those who have repudiated allegiance to the UK to prevent their returning to the country?
James Brokenshire
My hon. Friend tempts me into a broader debate that extends beyond the statutory instruments and deals with preventing from returning to this country people who have engaged in activity contrary to the interests of this country. This issue was considered at length in this House and the other place, and it was determined that TEOs were the appropriate mechanism, considering our international obligations and the issues he highlighted of legal challenge and ensuring an effective mechanism. We judge that the TEOs provide this, but we recognise the potential for challenge. Indeed, we have built in an oversight process through the scrutiny of the judiciary.
I hope that I can assure my hon. Friend that the rules are based on those used for similar preventive measures, such as terrorism prevention and investigation measures, some asset-seizing legislation and closed material proceedings, and therefore are based on the experience and judicial oversight applied to those rules. I hope that gives him some assurance of the careful consideration we have given to the rules.
Sir William Cash
I raised this question precisely because of my concerns about how the judiciary is effectively subordinated to the European Court of Justice, which overrides not only our Supreme Court but this Parliament. On matters concerning TPIMs, control orders and the rest of it, the Minister knows that people who should never have been allowed out have continued their stay.
James Brokenshire
I can assure my hon. Friend that TPIMs are robust and that we have taken steps to ensure their legal compliance. That was considered when they were introduced and during the passage of the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011. I fear that I am straying from the statutory instruments, but I recognise his challenge and assure him that our consideration of the rules reflected our experience of similar orders and some of the operational legal practice that the rules intend to operate.
The regulations are needed to implement effectively the Prevent duty across England, Wales and Scotland, which ultimately will help the Government and law-enforcement agencies to keep the country safe from terrorism, and the court rules govern proceedings that are essential to ensure appropriate safeguards for the TEO. With those comments, I hope the House will be minded to support the instruments.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for introducing these regulations. It is important to understand the measures in the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill and the implementation of the Prevent agenda in the context, I think, of some of the muddle the Government have created for themselves over the past five years. In 2010, they inherited 93 Prevent priority areas and in one year they cut them to 23. They then restored funding to seven areas, including Greenwich, to bring us back up to 30 priority areas. From next year, the Government will be increasing the number of priority areas to 50 and in their impact assessment on the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, the Government revealed that they expect this to rise to 90 areas over the next few years. In two years, then, we may be back where we started five years ago, but we have lost seven years thanks to the muddle coming from the Government.
That was not the only poor decision that the Government made, either. They reduced funding for Prevent from £17 million to £5.1 million a year, but not all of that £5.1 million was spent. In one year, just £1.6 million was spent and overall, since the Government re-launched the Prevent agenda, just 40% of the money allocated to local authorities was spent.
Prevent is meant to be a national and comprehensive strategy, yet last year just four areas delivered Prevent projects. We have seen particular failings from some Government Departments. The 2011 Prevent review identified the need to support schools in counter-radicalisation. The Department for Education committed to an 11-point plan, none of which seems to have been delivered.
The Home Secretary is threatening schools and universities with contempt of court proceedings if they do not implement the Prevent agenda, while I think the Government have serious questions to answer about their failures to deliver on their own commitments. Some of us believe that the Government need to get their own house in order before challenging other institutions and public bodies.
What is also a matter of real concern is that, overall, the Government appear to have little hard evidence about what Prevent work is going on or how effectively it has been delivered. We know that the Home Office’s chief economist refused to sign off the impact assessment to the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill on that basis.
James Brokenshire
The hon. Lady made this point about the impact assessment the other day. Will she acknowledge that the matter to which she refers is in the regulations before us this afternoon and that there is also the Scottish duty? She has completely mischaracterised this point.
Diana Johnson
I know that when we discussed the primary legislation around the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, it was reported that the chief economist at the Home Office did say what I suggested, so the Minister has not refuted the statement I made. We now know from the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill that there has been recognition that the Prevent agenda matters and needs to be supported.
Yesterday, of course, the Home Secretary went even further, talking about introducing a counter-extremism strategy, although I understand that such a strategy has not been published and there is not much detail about it. Today, however, the Home Secretary has made several claims. She first promised to work with communities in a way that different parts of different communities around the country have been requesting for some time. She promised that she would be very clear about distinguishing between Islam and Islamic extremism. All that is very welcome and, I have to say to the Minister, about time too.
The guidance in front of us does not, however, go as far as it should in meeting the pledges the Home Secretary made yesterday, but I do want to say some positive things about it. As the Minister knows, the original guidance was put out to consultation over the Christmas recess period, and I think improvements have been made to it. The document is less prescriptive throughout, so it can plausibly be said to be introducing the risk-based approach that the Government said they wanted from the outset. I welcome, too, the introduction of a clear set of commitments on what the Home Office will do to support the implementation of the Prevent agenda. This has been clearly lacking, I think, since the Prevent agenda was re-launched in 2011.
Let me briefly mention Scotland. It is good to see the inclusion of the Scottish organisations. I listened carefully to what the Minister said about the consultation with the Scottish Government and the inclusion of the various Scottish organisations, but I should like to ask him a question. There is separate guidance for the Scottish organisations, but I understand that it was not issued for full consultation. The Minister said earlier that there was a targeted process for the consultation. Will he explain what he meant by that?
Sir William Cash
Would the hon. Lady be good enough to tell us to what extent, if any, she has taken the opportunity to discover the views of the Scottish nationalists on this question? Has she had any indication of their views? They are not even here, but I am sure that she can provide us with a fairly good guess as to what they might think. We did hear Alex Salmond suggest the other day that they would be putting their foot down on matters that they thought were important to Scotland, in their own terms.
Diana Johnson
During the Bill’s passage, as the hon. Gentleman will know, members of the Scottish National party made a great deal of fuss about the involvement of the Scottish Government in consultation about the public institutions in Scotland that would be affected by the Prevent agenda. I was pleased to hear the Minister refer to the level of consultation that had taken place with the Scottish Government. I may be presuming too much, but perhaps the absence of members of the Scottish National party this afternoon means that they are fully content with what is being proposed. Obviously we must wait and see, but there is no one here to put an alternative case.
Let me now deal with some of the areas in which the revisions of the guidance have not addressed some of the shortcomings that I considered to be present in the first draft of the document. I believe that they have been raised both here and in the other place, and also in the responses to the consultation. The Minister said that there had been more than 1,700 responses, which is a very large number.
The first of those areas is the definition of extremism, which remains unchanged in the guidance. It is still defined as, basically, “an opposition to British values”. The failure to define extremism is central to other problems that the Prevent agenda encounters, as was recognised in the 2011 Prevent review. Front-line professionals do not properly understand what extremism is. There is considerable evidence of that poor understanding. A survey conducted for the Department for Education in 2011 revealed that 70% of schools felt that they needed more training and information in order to build resilience to radicalisation. That was picked up repeatedly in the consultation responses, and it is also a clear issue in relation to the Prevent agenda. We know that only 20% of the people who have been referred to the Channel programme have been accepted. The overwhelming majority are incorrectly referred, because front-line professionals have misunderstood the nature of the issues involved.
It was a failure of the Government not to fulfil the commitments made in the 2011 Prevent review to improve front-line understanding of extremism, and it is disappointing that they are repeating their mistake by failing to include in the guidance either a detailed explanation of what constitutes extremism, or an explanation of how a risk assessment for extremism should be conducted. In Committee, I gave the analogy of child abuse: we will combat the issue only when we fully recognise it for what it is.
The failure to define extremism properly also means that the guidance fails to live up to the promise that the Home Secretary made yesterday to distinguish clearly between Islam and Islamic extremism. The definition of Islamic extremism is limited: an Islamic extremist is described as someone who is angry with the west and resents western intervention in wars in Muslim countries. The guidance talks of a “them and us” rhetoric. That ignores the fact that the majority of the victims of Islamic extremists are Muslims, and the fact that those who are most likely to encounter it in the United Kingdom are Muslims. There is still nothing in the guidance about intra-Islam sectarianism, such as involving Wahhabis, Salafists and those with other views that have been specifically connected to ISIL, in particular Salafism. There is no discussion of that important matter in the document. The Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 was supposedly a response to that rising threat from ISIL-related terrorism. Does the Minister think more can be done in recognising that intra-Islamic sectarianism is not properly addressed in the guidance?
Those British people who have been leaving the UK to join ISIL are not generally joining a war against the west. They are joining a war against other Muslims, mainly Shi’as. This document should recognise the changing nature of this threat, and the need to recognise the degree of sectarian division related to groups such as ISIL within the UK.
In addition to this thematic problem within the guidance, I want to highlight some of the practical issues. The consultation highlighted confusion over what exactly was expected of non-Prevent-priority local authorities. Given that the Government seemed to be confused about exactly what a Prevent-priority area is, I am not terribly surprised that this is not addressed properly in the revised guidance. There is existing confusion about the role of central Government and the division of responsibilities within central Government. For example, how exactly is the burden of oversight shared between the body specifically charged with inspection of implementation—for example, Ofsted for schools—the Government Department with responsibility for that public body, for example the Department for Education, and the Home Office? What about the role of Departments, such as the Departments for Business, Innovation and Skills and for Communities and Local Government, in sharing good practice?
Several different bodies raised concerns about this in the consultation. It will be helpful if the Government publish a clear strategy as to how they will help promote best practice in relation to Prevent. Some of the obligations on certain bodies are unclear. Neither the guidance, nor the Minister in the other place yesterday, have been clear as to exactly what is expected of a nursery or childminder in terms of their responsibilities under Prevent. So I ask the Minister again today to set out exactly what this guidance means in practice for a childminder.
An issue raised in the consultation, which I also raised during the passage of the 2015 Act, was why the only NHS bodies to be included in the guidance are hospital trusts and foundation trusts. Under the Health and Social Care Act 2012 many more services are now going out to the private sector. Are those private companies going to be covered by the obligations under Prevent? Why are clinical commissioning groups and other commissioning bodies not included? General practitioners at the front line may come across people who are vulnerable and who may perhaps have mental health issues; should GPs also be under some of the Prevent duties set out in the guidance, and if not, why not? On the health and wellbeing boards that the Government established, I assume that because they are part of a local authority, they also have a Prevent duty.
On the provisions for universities, I am glad the guidance is less prescriptive than before. The new guidance has dropped the requirement that all academic presentations have to be submitted and vetted two weeks in advance, which was both absurd and unworkable. However, it is bizarre that the third paragraph of the guidance relating to universities states that further guidance will be issued to cover extremist speakers on campuses. As the Minister will be aware, that was one the most contentious issues. Yesterday the Minister in the other place did not seem to be able to explain why this was or how the issuing of updated guidance would work. I heard what the Minister said about the new guidance being a matter for the next Government, but I wonder whether he can answer the following questions. First, does he think the requirement for all speeches and presentations to be submitted two weeks in advance will be included in the new guidance?
Secondly, can the Minister explain how the external speakers guidance will be implemented? Will it require a separate statutory instrument and, therefore, approval by Parliament? Will the rest of the document have different implementation guidance from the external speakers guidance? Will there be a separate consultation?
James Brokenshire
I can answer the hon. Lady directly. Our contemplation is that there would need to be updated guidance and that a separate statutory instrument would therefore need to be approved by the House after the general election.
Diana Johnson
That is very helpful, and I thank the Minister for his straightforward response.
Yesterday, the Home Secretary announced that compliance with the Prevent agenda would be a requirement for universities in order that they may sponsor international student visas. Will the Minister explain whether this is Government policy that will actually happen, or whether it is a Conservative party pledge for the election? I am drawing this distinction because I understand that the coalition Government are not speaking with one voice on counter-terrorism issues these days, and I want to be clear about whether that is Government policy or not.
Sir William Cash
The hon. Lady has alluded to questions that might arise between the Conservative party and the Liberal party on terrorism. Would her party be in favour of putting terrorism on a par with or ahead of human rights? We have heard suggestions recently that human rights should trump terrorism.
Diana Johnson
That question opens up a whole new debate. We are dealing here with two specific statutory instruments. I know that there has been some tension in the coalition, particularly in the Treasury, with the Chancellor delivering his Budget and a separate Budget being delivered by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and I wanted to be clear about whether this particular proposal was Government policy or just Conservative policy. I was seeking guidance on that.
The focus on external speakers could create the risk that we ignore internal extremists. Where in the guidance is the specific reference to that threat? What would happen if a university’s Sunni society was agitating against the university’s Islamic or Shi’a societies? Have the Government considered the implications of such a situation for a university’s best practice?
While we are talking about universities, I also want to ask about the IT requirements. The guidance seems to imply that all universities should introduce the filtering of internet access through the university. Can the Minister explain the degree of filtering that would be involved? Is he confident that software exists that can do the job accurately? In the past, the platforms most commonly associated with extremism have been Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. Would students be prevented from accessing YouTube? Does the Minister expect this provision to apply in accommodation provided by the university, such as halls of residence or other housing provided to accommodate students? Can he confirm that the provision will not extend to a requirement for universities to collect data on internet sites accessed by their students?
We know that the Oxford and Cambridge unions, both of which are private institutions that have a history of giving a platform to high-profile racists and extremists, are excluded from the terms of the guidance. Why did the Government choose not to specify in either the Bill or the Prevent guidance that those organisations should be covered by the duty?
There are measures in the guidance that we very much welcome. We recognise that it has been significantly improved since the draft guidance was published over Christmas. Most importantly, we recognise that it is an extremely important document. Counter-extremism is a vital part of our counter-terrorism strategy. But there are some flaws, which I have identified, that show that the Government are playing catch-up at the end of this Parliament for neglecting counter-extremism for their first four years. Because of that, we are not where we should be today.
I wish briefly to discuss the second statutory instrument before us, which sets out the procedural rules of judicial hearings in relation to temporary exclusion orders. Thanks to the Opposition, the 2015 Act contains judicial oversight for TEOs. I welcome the provisions in the Act and in these regulations today, which will enable judicial proceedings to hear sensitive and confidential information. It has always been the Opposition’s position that strong powers, such as TEOs, require strong checks on this power, and these regulations will enable those strong checks. Of course, the need to protect sources and sensitive information will impinge on the operation of the courts, but, as we have seen with control orders and subsequently TPIMs, that does not mean the courts cannot provide an effective check on Executive power. We think these regulations will be able to do that. We would add a slight caveat: the regulations are complex, as are the proceedings they are covering. We hope the Government will commit to keeping them under review and will be prepared to come back to this House with amendments if issues do arise during court proceedings that require the passing of further legislation.
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)
In the couple of interventions I made on the Minister and on the shadow Minister, I returned to a point I made in the lead letter in The Sunday Telegraph of 8 March. Following its lead of the previous week, I said that we were talking not about just an accident, but about a failure of legislation in dealing with the question of human rights and the charter of fundamental rights in relation to all the matters we are now discussing and to the whole problem of counter-terrorism. The Minister has had a pretty hard time from me over the past couple of years on this subject, but I wish to say to him that I acknowledge that difficult issues are clearly involved here. I am not denying that for a minute. But many of us were deeply disturbed when in a recent discussion—I cannot give the precise details but I am paraphrasing—the question arose as to whether taking action against terrorism would have human rights consequences. In that instance, the human rights lobby indicated that human rights should prevail.
I find that view completely impossible to understand, not least because the first human right is the right to be secure—the second, and equal, human right is the right to life. We have only to consider what happened in the case of Lee Rigby or in the case of the terrible murders that have been taking place in parts of the middle east to realise the difficulty that such a view represents. On the simple proposition that human rights does not trump terrorism, we have to be absolutely clear. I am very glad to see a slight nod from the shadow Minister, because she knows that this is true. But the trouble is that there is a tremendous amount in these documents—I will not make a long speech on this, but will simply get it on the record. We discussed judicial oversight in relation to an amendment when these matters were before the House of Commons. I cannot remember whether the amendment was defeated or withdrawn, but it then went into the House of Lords and it was that shambolic debate that we recall. Judicial oversight has now come in. My point is about the substance of the issue: if judicial oversight is part and parcel of these issues before us today, then on the basis that the judges have to obey the law and the law does invoke the question of human rights, be it under the European convention on human rights and the Human Rights Act, or the more difficult and invasive charter of fundamental rights, which is justiciable by the European Court of Justice, we have got a real problem on our hands in dealing with terrorism. The reason why many people whom we have tried to deport—in some cases for more than a decade—were not deported was to do with human rights. Everybody should be in favour of human rights, but there are questions over how they are applied and what the procedures and thresholds are.
I conclude with this thought: we have not got it right. As I said in that letter in The Sunday Telegraph, tinkering with control orders, TPIMs and the rest of it might go some way to dealing with the problem but it will not resolve the issue if people can launch a challenge in the courts based on human rights or the charter of fundamental rights. They will not be deported and they will not be dealt with.
In the Prevention of Terrorism (No. 2) Bill that I introduced in 2005, I proposed that we should override the human rights laws to ensure the security of the citizens of this country. I said that habeas corpus was absolutely fundamental. All people who are accused of a crime, whether of terrorism or anything else, are entitled to a fair trial and due process. If we have those two things, and we override the Human Rights Act and the charter, we are in a position to deal with the problems, to satisfy the requirements of fair and judicial process and to ensure that the people have a proper trial.
My final thought is on this question of whether terrorists can get away with what they do. We know that there are many sleeping terrorists, so we are talking about a question not of if there is some form of terrorism, but of when. We should remember that the charter of fundamental rights, which came in under the Lisbon treaty, is much more difficult to deal with than the Human Rights Act, because of sections 2 and 3 of the European Communities Act 1972. In the context of the judicial process as a whole, it is imperative to recall that those on both Front Benches during the Lisbon treaty debates wanted to exclude that charter.
In one of his last statements to the House, Tony Blair, the then Prime Minister, said that we had an opt-out from the charter. We in the European Scrutiny Committee took evidence on that matter. Lord Goldsmith, who analysed and negotiated the arrangements in the Lisbon treaty, gave evidence. Sadly, those arrangements did not work and we are now finding that the European Court of Justice is continuously getting involved in applying the charter on a case-by-case basis. My concerns about the charter remain in relation to terrorism. Unless we resolve that, we will not be able, either under these orders or other terrorism legislation in general, to provide the security and stability that the people of this country deserve.
Mr Speaker
I was pleased to hear the words counter-terrorism towards the end of the hon. Gentleman’s oration. We are all reassured.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
I am tempted to respond to some of the points made by the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), but, in the interests of time, I will not.
In his opening remarks, the Minister underlined the widespread recognition, on both sides of the House, of the need to combat the threat of terrorism. That recognition, I am sure, exists well beyond the House, among people of all faiths and none, and nowhere more so than in my constituency where I have a strong Muslim community. It is a tragedy for communities, for families and for the young people themselves who get sucked into the tyranny of the so-called Islamic State. Certainly those in my local Muslim community are quick to point out that that is an abuse of words, because Islamic State is neither Islamic nor a state.
We need to be clear and to take care in our response to the threat of terrorism that we do not exacerbate the problem by reacting in a way that further alienates some sections of our communities. The risk of that has been made clear to me during my recent visits to mosques in my constituency by the very people who feel passionately that we need to resist the threat of terrorism. We also need to be careful not to respond in a way that puts undeliverable responsibilities on our institutions, and it is to that point that I will speak briefly, raising concerns about the guidance regarding higher education that apply equally to the section on further education.
Universities, like all public organisations, have clear responsibilities under the Human Rights Act to ensure freedom of expression, but universities have unique additional responsibilities. I am pleased that the Minister acknowledged that in his opening speech, when he spoke about the need to balance the struggle against terrorism and the implementation of the guidance with the responsibility to maintain academic freedom and the opportunity for debate in our institutions of higher education. I am pleased also that, in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), he made it clear that the guidance would not take effect until the guidance on speakers is approved, not simply published as he said in his opening remarks—clearly, it was a slip of the tongue. It is reassuring that approval of the further guidance is needed before the rest takes effect.
The Minister will know, because I have mentioned it before, that 29 years ago, in my previous career in the universities sector, I drafted a code of practice on freedom of speech for the university of Sheffield. That was required in every university across the country under the Education (No. 2) Act 1986, introduced by the then Conservative Government, with the aim of ensuring that universities maintained that commitment to freedom of speech. The hon. Gentleman will know that the Act imposes on universities a duty to ensure that use of their premises
“is not denied to any individual or body of persons on any ground connected with…the beliefs or views of that individual”.
We considered that when we debated the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, now the 2015 Act, but I think it remains unclear—I hope the consultation will produce some clarity—how the requirements of the 1986 Act sit alongside the responsibilities in paragraph 105 of the guidance.
Sir William Cash
Is the hon. Gentleman asserting that there is an absolute right to freedom of speech in all circumstances? Does he place any limitation on it?
Paul Blomfield
No, I am not asserting that. The right of freedom of speech is conditional in a number of ways. We have put in place legislation against incitement to racial hatred, for example. It is a question of how to get the balance right.
My point is that we need to avoid conflicting legislation, and there is a potential conflict between the guidance and the 1986 Act. For example, what position would a university be in if an action were brought by a third party to challenge a decision made under the provisions of this guidance on the basis of the university’s responsibility under the 1986 Act? Unless there is absolute clarity when the final guidance is published, universities may find themselves in a time-wasting and expensive legal quagmire, which apart from anything else sits uncomfortably with the Government’s views on unnecessary red tape.
My second concern relates to the general duty placed on universities to act against what is described as non-violent extremism, and it echoes a point made by my hon. Friend the shadow Minister. Non-violent extremism is defined in the guidance as:
“opposition to fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance”.
It is absolutely right to describe those values as fundamental to our society, but they are meaningful only if they allow space for those who do not share them. Clearly, as I said a moment ago in response to an intervention from the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), society does impose limits—for example, on incitement to racial hatred—but such limits have created crimes defined by this Parliament. The difficulty here is that we are giving our universities a responsibility to ban activities which are not themselves illegal, where the act of banning them may be seen by some to be in conflict with the very values that we are trying to protect.
We treasure our universities as the institutions that need to be able to debate our fundamental values. It was for that reason that the then Conservative Government included provisions on freedom of speech in the 1986 Act. We need to take great care when we legislate on these issues, and I fear that the guidance as it stands leaves too many unanswered questions.
James Brokenshire
I am grateful for the contributions this afternoon and the broad support for the two orders that we have been discussing. A number of the contributions strayed into the broader principles and issues surrounding counter-terrorism. I shall not detain the House by repeating a Second Reading debate on the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015, but some important points were raised and I wish to challenge some of the underlying assumptions.
For example, in respect of Prevent and the Prevent duty that this guidance refers to, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) made a number of assertions about the actions of this Government, and those assertions should be challenged. She asserted that there had been some muddle. The only muddle was the thinking of the Labour Government in their delivery of Prevent, and the fact that they conflated work on integration with combating terrorism activity, which stood in the way of doing that work effectively. That is why this Government were right to make a clear separation between the two parts of the work to ensure that they were effective.
The hon. Lady made various assertions about the activity that had taken place. Perhaps I can give her some figures, rather than the ones that she cited. I do not know where she got them from and I certainly do not recognise them. We have delivered more than 180 projects since 2011 under Prevent. The programme has reached more than 55,000 people. This year we are supporting more than 80 projects. We have provided a focus that did not exist under the Labour Government and, to judge from the shadow Minister’s comments, would not exist under Labour now. It has been useful to tease that out in the course of the debate.
I heard the point highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) in relation to freedom, liberty and security, a subject to which he has rightly returned on a number of occasions. He spoke about the issue of human rights and how that may impact on the court rules and the orders before us this afternoon. As the lead Minister who was responsible for the successful deportation of Abu Qatada from this country, I well understand the challenges posed by human rights issues in the context of the Government’s actions in seeking to uphold security and the best interests of this country. Yes, I think more does need to be done, but I shall not stray into a broader debate on the need for a British Bill of Rights. Ultimately, liberty and freedom should reinforce and be reinforced by security. I do not see that as an either/or. They should be two sides of the same coin and support each other. This is no doubt an issue that will be returned to in the next Parliament, continuing the debate that took place in this one.
The hon. Lady referred to the impact assessment and the report that she read in the newspapers. Perhaps I may comment on that. The impact assessment looked at the impact of the specific statutory instrument before the House this afternoon, particularly the impact of adding Scottish authorities to schedules 6 and 7. Neither the impact assessment nor the chief economist’s statement were concerned with the Prevent strategy as a whole or the Prevent duty outside Scotland. I hope that clarification is helpful.
The hon. Lady also talked about changes in Prevent priority areas. Our approach is informed by the changing threat picture and by the advice we receive from the joint terrorism analysis centre. It is in that context that we set priorities, and it is right that we keep these things under review. It is not a question of going back to the past, as she wrongly asserts; it is about the here and now, meeting the challenges and threats we face as a country and protecting those things that we hold dear, and that is the Government’s priority. I am sorry that the hon. Lady has failed to understand the issues at hand. That underlines again why Labour is simply not competent to deal with these issues.
As I have said before, the question of how universities and colleges balance the Prevent duty with the need to secure freedom of speech and have regard to the importance of academic freedom is extremely important. The Government take that extremely seriously, which is why we amended the legislation to ensure that institutions must have particular regard to the importance of academic freedom and freedom of speech when complying with the duty—the point made by the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield).
I reiterate that the Government are clear that universities represent one of our most important arenas for challenging extremist views and ideologies, but there is a risk that some people might use higher education institutions as a platform for drawing people into terrorism. We will use the time before the duty commences to produce further guidance on managing speakers and events in further and higher education institutions. It will be for the next Government to bring that guidance to the House early in the next Parliament for approval by both Houses, as I have indicated. I think it is important that there is a good understanding of the full guidance and how it relates in that manner.
Stephen Doughty
The Minister will be aware that I have previously raised concerns about that with him and with other Ministers. Given the context of devolution, particularly in the universities sector but also in education more generally, is it not absolutely vital that there are regular, proactive discussions between universities and Education Ministers across the United Kingdom, and will he ensure that in future there is Cabinet Office guidance on how often those matters should be discussed among Ministers across these islands?
James Brokenshire
The Prevent oversight board, which has an integral role in ensuring that the guidance before the House is properly recognised, has the ability to share good practice, and indeed the issues on adherence to it. That will provide a good mechanism for drawing Government together. It also needs to have good contact with the devolved Administrations. As the hon. Gentleman might know, I have already had discussions with the Welsh Government, and I certainly wish to see that continue in relation to the operation of the guidance. I also highlight the £40 million allocated for Prevent work in 2014-15 and the fact that the Prime Minister announced on 25 November that the additional £130 million that has been made available for increased counter-terrorism work will include additional funding for Prevent.
Schools and nurseries have a duty to care for their pupils and staff. The new duty will be seen in a similar way to their existing safeguarding responsibilities. The early years foundation stage framework makes it clear that providers must be alert to any safeguarding and child protection issues in a child’s life, either at home or elsewhere, so the work on the guidance supports and strengthens that. With regard to training, we have used Prevent to train literally tens of thousands of people to raise awareness of the need to adhere to an understanding of the issue, the threats and the risks within safeguarding, and that approach will certainly be extended further.
The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North asked whether we have covered all appropriate health bodies. The foundation trusts and NHS trusts identified are the most likely to have the most direct contact with people on the front line, with regard to their staff and the hospital settings. She referred to the issue of CCGs. We will certainly keep that under review in terms of extending the duty to other bodies, and I will have an open mind in adding it at that stage. However, a CCG is effectively a commissioning body rather than a body that delivers front-line services, and I hope that she understands that distinction.
Diana Johnson
GPs are very much in the front line and may well come across people who are very vulnerable, perhaps with mental health issues, for whom provision needs to be put in place under the Prevent duties that the other health bodies would have.
James Brokenshire
GPs are generally sole practitioners, or perhaps partnerships, rather than health bodies. We will continue to keep under review the sharing of the need to raise awareness of Prevent, which has already been rolled out to tens of thousands of front-line health professionals.
The hon. Lady highlighted sectarianism and the different natures of the threat that we face. Prevent and our Contest counter-terrorism strategy cover all forms of terrorism, as we have made clear on a number of occasions. I hope she understands that the guidance extends to all forms of terrorism, of whatever nature.
I welcome the broad support—despite some of the comments that have been made—for the two orders, and I hope that the House will approve them both. That will make a difference in the fight against terrorism. It will also underline this Government’s commitment to ensuring national security and the safety of the public. We have that at the heart of our work and will continue to do so.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the draft Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 (Risk of Being Drawn into Terrorism) (Amendment and Guidance) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 12 March, be approved.
Senior Courts of England and Wales
Resolved,
That the Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2015 (S.I., 2015, No. 406), dated 26 February 2015, a copy of which was laid before this House on 27 February, be approved.—(James Brokenshire.)
Business without Debate
Delegated Legislation
Mr Speaker
With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 7 to 10 together.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Extradition
That the draft Extradition Act 2003 (Amendment to Designations and Appeals) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 16 January, be approved.
National Health Service
That the draft Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014 (Special Trustees) Amendment Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 3 February, be approved.
That the draft False or Misleading Information (Specified Care Providers and Specified Information) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 11 February, be approved.
Companies
That the draft Companies, Partnerships and Groups (Accounts and Reports) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 23 February, be approved.—(Mark Lancaster.)
Question agreed to.
Regulatory Reform
Delegated Legislation
Mr Speaker
With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 12 to 19 together.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Housing
That the draft Selective Licensing of Houses (Additional Conditions) (England) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 4 March, be approved.
Energy Conservation
That the draft Energy Efficiency (Private Rented Property) (England and Wales) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 9 March, be approved
That the draft Energy Efficiency (Domestic Private Rented Property) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 4 February, be approved.
Public Health
That the draft Nicotine Inhaling Products (Age of Sale and Proxy Purchasing) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 25 February, be approved.
That the draft Proxy Purchasing of Tobacco, Nicotine Products etc. (Fixed Penalty Amount) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 25 February, be approved.
Financial Services and Markets
That the draft Bank of England Act 1998 (Macro-prudential Measures) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 12 February, be approved.
That the draft Bank of England Act 1998 (Macro-prudential Measures) (No. 2) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 12 February, be approved.
That the draft Mortgage Credit Directive Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 27 February, be approved.—(Mark Lancaster.)
Question agreed to.
Mr Speaker
Before I call the petitions to be presented, I must explain to the House how we will deal with their large number. I hope colleagues will be forbearing on this matter.
We shall deal first with the three petitions on subjects not relating to “Eligibility of Members to vote on certain issues in the House of Commons”. After those petitions have been presented, we will move on to the petitions on “Eligibility of Members to vote on certain issues in the House of Commons”. Once the first petition relating to this subject has been read to the House, with its prayer, subsequent petitions on the same topic should not be read out in full. Members should give a brief description of the number and location of the petitioners, and state that the petition is “in the same terms.” Members presenting more than one petition should present them together. When a Member has presented a petition, she or he should proceed to the Table and hand their petition to the Clerk, who will read the title of the petition and then hand it back to the Member. She or he should then proceed directly to the petitions bag at the back of the Chair. I will call the next Member immediately after the Clerk has read the title. At the expiry of half an hour, no further petitions may be presented orally, but they may be placed in the petition bag and will be recorded as formally presented.
Petitions
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I wish to present a petition that was the product of constituents’ astonishment, indeed anger, that the House of Commons could vote by an overwhelming majority on 5 September to support my private Member’s Bill to scrap the Government’s under-occupancy penalty, otherwise known as the bedroom tax, and to improve opportunities for affordable homes—the vote was 306 to 231, at column 603 of Hansard, and these were eligible votes in the House of Commons—but could then effectively have its will defied by one party of the coalition that acted in a high-handed manner in refusing to grant the Bill the necessary money resolution. To any objective observer—and my constituents are paragons of objectivity—that represents a clear abuse of Executive power. The petition is signed by over 1,000 constituents, but I have also received many hundreds of letters, e-mails and messages of support and encouragement, with none opposed to the measure. Such a Bill shall not be stopped in the next Parliament.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of the UK,
Declares that the Petitioners support the Affordable Homes Bill sponsored by Andrew George, further that the Petitioners believe that the bill should be allowed to progress and further that a petition in the St Ives constituency calling for the bill to be allowed to progress was signed by 1072 individuals.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to bring forward a money resolution to allow the Affordable Homes Bill to make progress.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001466]
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
This is a petition to the House of Commons of the residents of Barnoldswick—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
There is no need to hurry the matter unduly. May I say what a pleasure it is to see the hon. Gentleman back in the Chamber and in very good voice? As I say, these matters do not need to be unduly hurried, but we all look forward to his petition.
Andrew Stephenson
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of Barnoldswick,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that St Joseph’s Catholic Primary School, West Close Road, Barnoldswick is over-subscribed and wishes to expand to meet the needs of the local area, including a growing Catholic community.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to support the St Joseph’s Catholic Primary School’s proposed extension.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001471]
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
I wish to present a petition on behalf of my constituents in Newcastle. A similar petition online—at www.mcdonaldspetition.co.uk—has collected 860 signatures so far. The petition calls on this House to listen to the democratic will of local people and the council, who have rejected a planning application for a McDonald’s drive-through in Kenton, Newcastle, and urge the Government to reject any appeal that may be considered by a Minister. The restaurant would be opposite Europe’s largest secondary school—which is also my old school—on a busy main road and a minute’s walk from another similar restaurant. The council has rejected the application, but an appeal was lodged on the last available day to the Planning Inspectorate, which takes the decision away from local people.
The petition states:
The Humble Petition of the organisers of the website mcdonaldspetition.co.uk
Sheweth that the Petitioners are campaigning to promote and strengthen local democratic oversight of the planning system; further that local people in Newcastle have rejected planning permission for a McDonald’s fast food restaurant opposite a school in Kenton and further that an appeal has been made to the Planning Inspector.
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House will urge the Government to listen to the democratic will of local people in Newcastle and duly reject the appeal to the Planning Inspector for planning permission for a McDonald’s fast food restaurant in Kenton.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c.
[P001470]
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
It is a pleasure to be joined by so many colleagues to present petitions from up and down the country calling for English votes on English laws. Petitions have also been raised by many dozens of other colleagues and constituencies. In just a few weeks, there will be a general election at which we will face a decisive choice on a number of important issues, one of which is whether the people of England should be allowed to determine their own destiny in areas where decisions have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament, or whether MPs representing Scottish constituencies should be allowed to continue to decide issues that will have no effect whatsoever on their constituents.
We have set out proposals to ensure basic democratic fairness. The Opposition are, of course, silent. They want to maintain the flexibility to strike a cosy deal, backed by nationalist MPs who want to tear our country apart, so this is an issue they would prefer to avoid. That will not satisfy the thousands of people who have signed this petition and whose voice is heard tonight. I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for allowing us time to present the petition. As you have said, I will read it out in full so other colleagues do not need to do so. I wish to present a petition on behalf of those in the Beverley and Holderness constituency who want to ensure English votes for English laws.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of Beverley and Holderness,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that when Parliament makes decisions affecting only the people of England or England and Wales then those decisions should be made only by the Members of Parliament elected to represent England or England and Wales.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons creates fairness in the devolution settlement by ensuring decisions having a separate and distinct effect on England or England and Wales, are only decided by the Members of Parliament elected to represent England or England and Wales.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001451]
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) on behalf of my constituents in Daventry. I also have a similar one, which I carried out online, with about 300 signatures. This is the second petition that I have presented on this issue since I became a Member of Parliament. It is a very strong and current theme in the pubs and on the streets of the villages in my constituency, so it gives me great pleasure to present this petition.
The Petition of the residents of Daventry.
[P001439]
Simon Reevell (Dewsbury) (Con)
I, too, rise to present a petition in the same terms on behalf of the people of Dewsbury. It is no more and no less than a request that such matters are dealt with fairly from the perspective of those of us who live in England, who want no more than that enjoyed by those who live elsewhere in the United Kingdom.
The Petition of the residents of Dewsbury.
[P001454]
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) on behalf of the constituents of Newton Abbot. English laws must be made only by English MPs: this is the heart of democracy.
The Petition of residents of the constituency of Newton Abbot.
[P001457]
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
I rise to present a similar petition in the same terms on behalf of the residents of North East Hertfordshire, who feel most strongly about this issue.
The Petition of residents of North East Hertfordshire.
[P001458]
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) on behalf of my constituents in Crawley, who believe that they should have equal weight in decisions that affect their lives in England. It is my pleasure to present the petition.
The Petition of residents of Crawley.
[P001459]
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms on behalf of the residents of Redditch County. They do not want any more powers transferred away from this House, and want to ensure that English Members of Parliament are able to take decisions that only affect them.
The Petition of residents of Redditch County.
[P001465]
Sir Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con)
On behalf of my constituents in Rutland and Melton, I present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart). We believe in a balanced and fair constitution that offers English votes for English laws.
The Petition of the residents of Rutland and Melton.
[P001468]
Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in precisely the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart). It contains 276 signatures from the residents of Hornchurch and Upminster.
The Petition of the residents of Hornchurch and Upminster.
[P001469]
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms on behalf of my constituents in Congleton, who consider this to be a matter of fairness and justice for themselves and all the people of England.
The Petition of the residents of Congleton.
[P001472]
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms on behalf of the residents of the faithful city of Worcester. It has been signed by more than 400 residents and 100 residents have signed a similar petition online.
The Petition of the residents of Worcester.
[P001473]
Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart). It has been signed by many constituents in Southend West who are incensed about the unfair voting arrangements for English Members of Parliament.
The Petition of the residents of Southend West.
[P001475]
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
I would like to associate myself with the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) and to present a petition in the same terms on behalf of my constituents in South East Cornwall.
The Petition of the residents of South East Cornwall.
[P001476]
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
I rise to present a petition in the same terms as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) on behalf of my constituents in York Outer. It calls for English votes for English laws to deliver fairness for all.
The Petition of the residents of York Outer.
[P001477]
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
I, too, rise to present a petition in the same terms as that laid out by my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart). I present it on behalf of my constituents in Gosport, who are so frustrated by the injustice of this situation and request English votes for English laws.
The Petition of the residents of Gosport.
[P001478]
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
I rise to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of Cleethorpes in the same terms as those of my hon. Friends. My constituents feel strongly that this constitutional anomaly wants correcting. They believe in English votes for English laws.
The Petition of the residents of Cleethorpes.
[P001479]
Lesser-taught languages
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
I wish to express my disappointment at the fact that a number of exam bodies have decided to pull out of teaching GCSE and A-level for lesser-taught modern languages. It seems that from 2016 or 2017 we will lose a large number of what are referred to as lesser-known languages, and for teaching purposes as modern languages. Those include Arabic, modern Greek, Japanese, Urdu, Bengali, modern Hebrew, Punjabi, Polish, Dutch, Persian, Gujarati and Turkish. In short, my case is that a short-term decision by exam bodies, supposedly made on the grounds of low uptake and/or financial viability, will put at risk the UK’s future trade, diplomatic and cultural relationships with many future economic success stories.
The internationally recognised group known as the Next-11 countries—the House will be grateful that I will not list them all—have been identified as countries set to enjoy rapid and sizable growth. However, with these cuts to exam board qualifications we are set to dismiss, among others, Arabic, Bengali, Turkish and Persian. Indeed, for Britain there will not be the Next-11 countries, but there may be the Next-7. The British Council identified key languages based on economic, cultural and educational factors. Those included Arabic, Turkish, Portuguese and Japanese, yet they too have been identified as of no further interest to exam bodies.
I fear that unfortunately we are not learning the lessons of the past. We have all become familiar with the success of the BRIC countries—Brazil, Russia, India and China—which were identified decades ago as the growth economies of the future. Yet to all intents and purposes, for some years we in the UK have fared less well than some of our competitor neighbouring EU countries in doing business with the BRIC countries, and I suggest that in part that was because we did not teach and master the languages of the economies that we knew were about to emerge—and emerge they did. Are we now set to repeat those mistakes with the Next-11 countries and the so-called MIST countries—those countries have taken over from the BRICs and are Mexico, Indonesia, South Korea and Turkey?
Let me use the example of Turkey for illustrative purposes. Turkish is currently taught at GCSE and A-level, but the OCR board’s proposed policy is to cease to teach it as a modern language. The OCR—a not-for-profit organisation—has cited commercial viability as the reason for not proceeding with that exam, arguing that only 1,700 GCSE students and 600 A-level students entered for it. The decision to drop the GCSE and the A-level baffles me, frankly, not least because the number of candidates achieving A-level grades A to E is higher than that for courses the exam bodies are keeping, namely German and Spanish. The decision by the OCR is further complicated—and difficult to understand and challenge—by the fact that on the grounds of commercial sensitivity it will not share the financial information it claims is driving this decision. If it is abandoning the course, I struggle, as one who spent 25 years in business, to understand what could be commercially sensitive.
Perhaps I can make a note of my first two points for the Minister. Will he confirm that the Government are not putting financial pressure on exam bodies, or, indeed, if they are putting pressure on exam bodies? Will he require them to share the financial rationale for that decision with him or his officials?
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman is making a very important case. May I just tell him about the Shpresa project, which works in my area among families who came to the UK from Kosovo? Teaching people Albanian is a very important part of what it does. The young people are very keen that there should be a GCSE, as there is not one at the moment. The exam body has told them that raising £100,000 would enable a GCSE to be introduced. So far, they have raised £80,000.
Nick de Bois
I pay tribute to them for their ingenuity and their willingness to try to solve their problem. That points to something I would like to say about the diaspora a little later, but I applaud their entrepreneurial and, shall we say, Conservative instincts to try to find a solution for themselves.
I am quite happy to respect the commercial sensitivity argument about not putting information in the public domain. However, as the Minister will see later, I am anxious that if he were to explore that argument with the OCR it would perhaps either provide comfort or expose as flawed the argument that has been put forward.
On the wider argument, does the Minister agree that the case for learning modern languages is very simple? The world is becoming even smaller. We are seeking to deliver on the Government’s pledge and target to build exports across the globe and to maintain strong trading arrangements with the EU. We will therefore need fluent, well-educated people to build our relationships with Turkey, Poland, Iran, Bangladesh and the other countries I have mentioned. We will need language skills to do business with many of those countries.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the exam boards have for a long time cross-subsidised the smaller subject areas? The key thing here is to increase the numbers of people taking the exams. We know very well that it is a huge step forward to go from speaking a language at home to working towards a qualification. We should be aiming to offer more children the opportunity to get a qualification that then makes them able to do the things he describes in the commercial world: to operate as adults, not simply as children who have a language at home.
Nick de Bois
The hon. Lady makes an excellent point. Her work on the all-party group on modern languages champions the arguments for why we should engage with diasporas and capitalise on their contribution and their links, through the second and third generations, as well as making the teaching of these languages widely available. We could then turn around the reputation of Britain as a country that is not necessarily interested in other languages to one that champions such skills, so that we can return to and explore our roots as a trading nation. She makes the point about the advantages of the diaspora very well.
After five years in this place, I recognise that sometimes people are cynical about taking the word of an MP, so, shocking as that might be, I shall turn to some evidence that I hope the exam bodies will take on board. In 2013, the British Chambers of Commerce surveyed 4,768 companies, of which 70% responded that their access to greater exports was diminished by a lack of language skills. It is obvious, but it is good to have the evidence. UK Trade & Investment’s 2013 report, “The Costs to the UK of Language Deficiencies as a Barrier to UK Engagement in Exporting”, showed a staggering loss to British business of £48 billion in exports through poor language skills. I do not need a long education in mathematics to work out that this would be an astonishing return on our investment, if we could capture that £48 billion by continuing our investment in modern languages, including many of the lesser modern languages.
In case we need more convincing, I refer the House to the latest report from Professor James Foreman-Peck, of Cardiff business school, which, in 2015, showed convincingly that small and medium-sized enterprise exporters with strong language skills achieved far higher export-to-turnover ratios. That is the holy grail if we are to continue to drive our export business. It is simple. We require exam bodies to invest in the future by keeping and growing modern language courses, not cutting them back. On the point I think the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) was making, should we not be responding to the alleged concern about entry numbers for GCSE and A-levels, as in the case of Turkish, modern Greek, Polish and Bengali, with an attempt to reach more students by marketing the unique benefits of these courses? There is a vast audience out there waiting to take up the challenge.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate, the title of which is “Lesser-taught Languages”. In Leicester, these languages are not lesser taught—Gujarati, Punjabi, Bengali and Arabic qualifications are sat by hundreds of students every year. He has hit the nail on the head. If we want to expand trade, rather than getting rid of these qualifications, we should be encouraging schools to offer them, in addition to the madrassahs, temples and community organisations that currently offer them in Leicester.
Nick de Bois
Indeed. With the best of efforts, many of these supplementary educational skills—the hon. Gentleman rightly talks highly of those in his constituency—are not going to deliver the modern language skills we need at A-level and GCSE level to take pupils on to other qualifications. They are complementary. I will talk shortly about what is being done in the community, but on his point about “lesser-taught languages”, it was the term I inherited and felt worthy enough to draw to the attention of the Speaker’s Office. However, he makes very well the point that many people on Twitter have made to me. We still think of them as lesser languages, but in fact they are the languages of the future, economically, culturally and diplomatically.
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. I have been to Turkey several times in recent years and have been impressed by the scale—7% or 8%—of its economic growth. There is a construction site almost everywhere. I am shocked to hear that an exam board might be thinking of withdrawing a Turkish GCSE qualification. Given that the state could provide these qualifications itself but chooses to allow exam boards to do it, is not the answer for the state to say to exam boards, “If you wish to be an exam board, we will hold you to a higher standard”?
Nick de Bois
My hon. Friend rightly makes a suggestion that I will be reinforcing to the Minister a little later. He is right. The Government’s job, and our job, is to lead. I know from questions I have tabled to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department for Education that they would rightly echo the sentiments he has expressed and which I am sure others in the Chamber hold regarding the value and importance of these qualifications. With a new Parliament, perhaps we can put some oomph—that will be an interesting one for Hansard—into backing up what we aspire to deliver.
As is evident today, there are cross-party calls, led by the all-party group on modern languages, for the political commitment to which my hon. Friend has referred. I think it is also a political commitment to transforming the reputation of the UK as essentially poor linguists. I was blessed in that my father was in the Royal Air Force, so I lived and travelled in many locations overseas. I found it quite hard to learn a modern language overseas. For many years we were in Holland, and as the Dutch told me, “We are all learning English because no one is really keen to learn Dutch.” I am not sure that that is necessarily the case now, but because we were English, we were inherently gifted by the fact that so many people wanted to learn English. That is not the way of the world now—in an ever-changing world and an ever-changing global market. I do not want Britain to be seen as a country that is reluctant to value languages other than English.
The all-party parliamentary group rightly set out other important aims—for example, to ensure that every child achieves a high-quality language qualification by the end of their secondary education. Indeed, that is an ambition that other countries do not need themselves, as many of them are on the way to achieving it. I think it right for exam boards to seek to review their policy, which is in my opinion short-termist and taken in isolation of the needs of business and in isolation of the wider UK skills level training for the future.
As the APPG rightly recognises, the commitment to, and the status of, modern languages are strategically important, yet this move, along with the wider concerns about the take-up of modern languages, make our position more vulnerable now and for the future. As the UK becomes more diverse, with a growing diaspora from many different countries, we should not lose sight of the unique opportunity to build closer cultural, diplomatic and business relationships with countries of origin.
Let me explain. In Enfield North, I have a very mixed population, with strong, well-established second and third generations of Turkish-speaking communities, Greek Cypriot communities, south-east Asian and Polish communities, to name but a few. Indeed, it was interesting to find out from my research that Polish is the second most commonly spoken language in the UK. This is not a reason, in my opinion, to abandon the A-level, but a case to ensure that we encourage the second and third-generation Polish people to become the entrepreneurs, academics and diplomats for the UK and to ensure that we help Poland to do more business with the UK. That is surely the role of modern languages—to secure the qualification, to get it recognised as a qualification that is utterly distinct from what people might learn in the home and to allow people to use languages to progress and develop the careers they need. If I sound as if I know what I am talking about at all, it is down to the discussions I have had on this subject with my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski). It is also worth noting that Poland is currently the UK’s ninth largest export market. That is surely something that we should tap into more.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
Poland is one of our largest and fastest-growing export markets. Whenever I go to Warsaw, the discussions I have in Polish are completely different from those I have when I speak in English. They are so much more open to discussions when people make the effort to learn their language. I very much hope that we can save the Polish A-level, purely from a commercial perspective.
Nick de Bois
I well take my hon. Friend’s point. I am blessed with a French name, but from the presumption that I speak French I recognise the constant disappointment of French-speaking people when I am limited to saying, “I am sorry, but I do not speak very good French”—in French, at least! My hon. Friend is right that the whole tone, mood and understanding can change when we nuance business relationships by using the language of the people we hope to do good business with.
What I said about Poland, I have already said about Turkey, and it is true of Bangladesh—a growing economy in the world, with unique and historic ties. It is set to be a growing economic partner to the UK, but that could be threatened by the decision to close the door on opportunity by not teaching Bengali, which is the 10th most spoken language in the world. That is a pretty big door of opportunity to close. I think that, in the mid to long term, these very same people can be at the forefront of the strengthening of links with their relatives of generations ago, back at home. I think that that can be part of a wider picture, and that what is becoming an increasingly smaller world can be a world in which we send our ambassadors from the United Kingdom, whose origins lie in the diaspora, to be our No. 1 representatives abroad.
Let me, at this point, pay tribute to Londra Gazete, a north London Turkish newspaper that has championed this issue—so much so that, in less than a week, more than 1,500 people had signed up to argue the case for it. It is not as if people are doing nothing now. The diasporas are certainly not sitting around doing nothing; they have their supplementary schools, and they follow the true Conservative principles of personal and family responsibility. Many people from different communities have set up such schools to help second and third-generation people who were born and raised in Britain to rediscover their language of origin. That is what is happening in the Turkish supplementary schools in Enfield. By keeping Turkish as a modern language, we formalise the achievement of pupils in those schools. It is a recorded academic achievement that can take them on to university, and, as I have said, they can become ambassadors and exporters for Britain.
Teaching in the supplementary schools is not a substitute for modern languages GCSE or A-level courses. I do not want our exam bodies to limit the ambition of any diaspora second or third generation. However, as I said at the beginning, this is not just about diasporas. We should not be limiting the ambitions of all Britons who are willing to learn important languages of the future. What may be a lesser modern language now will certainly not be a lesser modern language in the future.
I want to know whether the Minister will meet exam board decision makers—not least those on the OCR—as a matter of urgency, to raise this matter and convey the concerns that have been expressed in the House and in the modern languages community. I should be grateful if he threw his full weight and authority behind repeating the arguments that have been presented here tonight.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) on securing the debate. I am glad that we have a few more minutes than are normally available for Adjournment debates, so that some of his colleagues can comment on this important issue.
The debate highlights the changes proposed by examination boards in England, but the issue also affects my constituents very directly. Many people in Scotland, in my constituency and elsewhere, want to take exams in the so-called lesser-taught languages but cannot do so, because, even now, the Scottish Qualifications Authority offers a very limited range of subjects. People do take exams in subjects offered by examination boards elsewhere in the United Kingdom, but they have to pay the fees and travel to the approved centres because they cannot take them in Scotland. The only subjects offered by the SQA are Cantonese, French, Gaelic, German, Italian, Mandarin, Spanish and Urdu—and a small element of Polish in what is not a full national course. If exams in lesser-taught languages can no longer be taken in England, people from Scotland—and, presumably, in Wales and Northern Ireland—will not be able to gain these qualifications either.
Polish is my particular concern. As the hon. Gentleman said, it is the second most commonly spoken language in the United Kingdom, and is one of the foreign languages that have the most speakers in the UK. There are a great many Polish speakers in my constituency, which contains the largest number of Polish-born people in Scotland and one of the largest in the UK. Obviously, I have a certain personal interest and experience as well. I have been approached by members of a Polish community and others in Scotland who have been campaigning for the Scottish Government, the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish authorities to ensure that Polish is included in Scottish national examination courses, both at national 4 and 5 and at a higher level. That campaign is on much the same lines as the one described by the hon. Gentleman.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)
Order. It will be a good idea to deal with the moment of interruption before the hon. Gentleman intervenes.
Daniel Kawczynski
The hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) is a very active member of the all-party group on Poland which I chair, and I hope he agrees with me about the strong representations we have had from the Polish Ambassador Mr Witold Sobków as to how strongly he and the Polish diaspora feel about the importance of the retention of the Polish A-level.
Mark Lazarowicz
The hon. Gentleman is right. As he says, there has been a campaign with strong support from the Polish community throughout the UK. Dziennik Polski has conducted a big campaign to which many of us have given our support.
There is an issue not just for people in Scotland who want to take exams in Polish, or other languages, or for people who are interested in studying Polish. As the hon. Member for Enfield North pointed out, many languages face being axed as examination subjects, at least in some parts of the UK. In so doing, we are underlining the reputation of the UK as being bad for languages. We all know that is the case anyway and this decision will only make it worse.
This is not just about people who want to learn a language because of family or connection with the diaspora, although that is an extremely important asset that we should be taking advantage of in encouraging economic links to other countries. It is also often important for cultural reasons and cultural cohesion. Anyone in the UK who wants to learn these languages will have a disincentive to do so if there is no examination at the end of the course. As has been said, that will diminish the economic well-being of this country and its ability to reach out to what are growing and important economies. Poland is the ninth largest UK export market, and the UK is the third largest investor in Poland. Turkish has been referred to as well, as has Portuguese, which is important in terms of reaching out to Brazil, one of the biggest economies in the world.
The examination authorities in England are therefore taking a short-sighted approach, which will have a direct effect on my constituents. It is also unfortunate that so far the Scottish examination authorities have not chosen to offer an exam in Polish and perhaps other languages as well. If anyone in the Scottish Government or their supporters in this House is paying attention to this debate, I hope they take that message back home, and I hope the Government here will take the steps highlighted by the hon. Member for Enfield North in trying to ensure this regrettable decision by the exam boards is reversed, so that the immense talent and ability which can be released by encouraging these languages to be learned and studied with a qualification at the end can be maximised for the benefit of the entire UK in the way that has been so amply outlined in this debate.
Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)
I will not detain the House for long. I have a declaration: I am probably the only Member of this House with a degree in Serbo-Croat, and I studied Russian as well at A-level. I therefore have a strong love of languages that are probably not the most well-known ones, but it is important that they are taught.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) on securing this debate. He is a doughty champion for all his constituents, but on this occasion particularly for those who have these languages and their families. This is very important: it is important for their culture, and it is important for business and many other reasons, but it is also important because when people who might not even have family links learn those languages and then go on business trips and so forth, they learn about the culture of the place. They can then read things and learn a lot more. They are far better equipped to talk to people in those countries and those who are here, and that is incredibly important.
This is also a matter of politeness. Anybody can learn a few words of a language. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North was being modest when he said that he could not speak much French. The ability to speak just a few basic words can open doors. If people are learning these languages, we should encourage them by giving them a qualification. I entirely agree that we should not be cutting the study of these minor languages; we should be encouraging more of them to be taught. The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) mentioned Albanian. I have become involved in the fight against modern slavery, and it is important that when I go to countries such as Albania and Slovakia I can at least understand what people are saying. We should be encouraging more people to learn these languages.
We have not mentioned intelligence work. We never know when we are suddenly going to need native speakers, for whatever reason. I never thought, when I studied Serbo-Croat, that the events in Yugoslavia were going to happen. It was just a rather nice backwater in the Balkans at the time, but we saw what eventually happened there. These matters are incredibly important.
Madam Deputy Speaker, you and I will shortly be taking our leave of this place. You no longer have the opportunity to speak in debates as I do, but I should like to put on record my thanks to you for all that you have done in the House. I also want to plug my old college, the School of Slavonic and East European Studies, which is now part of University college London. It offers excellent evening courses in all these different languages and, as I am about to have more time on my hands, I might well start to learn some of them.
A few years ago, courses were offered in the House of Commons. Perhaps you participated in them, Madam Deputy Speaker. They consisted of two-hour sessions, and I remember that the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), who is now the Deputy Leader of the House, was learning Portuguese. I think he was brought up in Portugal. I did Punjabi, which has helped me ever since. I can now say to my Sikh businessmen in Punjabi that I am called John Randall. That opens doors for me everywhere. The fact that I have a beard, and until recently had a shop, has also helped.
Our country cannot afford not to encourage the teaching of these languages. As for the Poles, we should be doing everything we can, because they are an important trading partner. Poles have been in my constituency since the second world war, and they have given so much to this country. It is the least we can do to ensure that their children and grandchildren can learn their language and learn about their country and their culture.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
When the Prime Minister appointed me as his envoy to the central and eastern European diaspora in the United Kingdom, I was obviously very pleased. I am the first British Member of Parliament ever to have been born in Poland. As I said earlier, when I go to Warsaw and speak to representatives of non-governmental organisations, of commercial operations and of the Government, the conversation is completely different when I speak in Polish. People open up and tell me things that they would not normally tell me, and I am able to engage with them in a completely different way.
As a result, I have now asked a lady in Shrewsbury to help me to improve my Polish, and she comes every Saturday to teach me and my daughter, Alexis. Alexis is eight years old, and she is much better at learning the language than I am, as children often are. Alexis had come to me and said, “Daddy, I’m half Polish and I want to learn the language.” That made my heart melt; I was so proud of her. I very much hope that she will do Polish A-level one day, and that she will be able to speak the language fluently. I know that, whatever walk of life she follows—perhaps she will have a business career—knowing a second language will give her a huge advantage. If we are going to remain in the European Union, it is vital that we engage with our political counterparts in their own language.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois). He and I share a passion for British exports; we both come from an exports background. I spent 14 years exporting British goods around the world before I became a Member of Parliament. If we look at the world map, we see that we are exporting most to English-speaking countries but that, surprisingly, there is a huge dearth—a void—of British commercial interests in many parts of the world simply because we do not understand the language. The Prime Minister has set a target of £1 trillion of exports by 2020, which some say is unachievable. I believe it can be achieved, but we have to help the small and medium-sized enterprises, to which my hon. Friend the Member referred. One in five SMEs is exporting and if we can get that to one in four, we will completely wipe out our trade balance deficit. We are not going to get back to substantial economic prosperity in this country unless our SMEs are exporting to countries to which hitherto we have not exported. These languages are of huge importance in that, so I implore the Minister to take that into account. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North and I am very grateful for what he has done. I very much look forward to hearing from the Minister about the interventions he is going to make to ensure that these vital language courses stay.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)
May I just ask you, Mr Bacon, to allow enough time for the Minister to reply? This debate will end at 7.30 pm.
Mr Bacon
I have an eager eye on the clock and I will abide by what you have said, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wish to make a brief contribution.
Some 10 days ago—two weeks ago—in my capacity as co-chair of the all-party group on Iran, I helped host five Members of the Iranian Parliament here in Westminster for most of a week. When we were not in Westminster, one of the most interesting trips we did was to Cambridge, where we met the professor of Persian studies, some young British students who were studying Persian, some young members of the diaspora and some people who had come here from Iran to study at masters and at PhD level. On the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) made, when we look at the statistics on this country’s exports to Iran, we find that, sadly, for a variety of reasons we are all too familiar with, they have been going down. Interestingly, that has been while United States’ exports in areas where the US has a competitive advantage, such as agriculture and pharmaceuticals, have been increasing substantially.
There will come a time when our relations with Iran, including our commercial relations, are able to flourish and prosper in the way that many of us would like to see. When that time comes, we have to be ready. We need to be preparing for that now. We need to make it more normal to learn “lesser-taught languages” as they are termed in this debate. The best part of that description is “taught”, because they are not lesser in any other sense. I am looking at my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall) and I recall a friend of mine who is now at The Economist teaching me a phrase in Serbo-Croat many years ago which turned out to mean, “Why don’t you speak Serbo-Croat?” I have yet to find a useful use for it.
The truth of the matter, however, is that the single most human part of the encounter during the Iranians’ visit was when I recited a poem in Farsi that I had taken the trouble to learn. That opened a whole set of windows that had hitherto been closed in the way we dealt with each other. The Iranians went home, reporting back that they had had a very successful visit. I only hope we can do more business in the future and improve the relations between our countries, but the ability to communicate with each other is of the essence.
Let me make one point about the comments made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz). At one point in his speech he used the phrase “examination authorities”. We all know what he means by that, but these people are not authorities; they are contractors. They have been given the chance by the state to offer qualifications, or they have qualifications that are widely recognised as if they have the force of the backing of the state, but the state does not have to leave it there. We are in an environment where we have been hearing the phrase “more for less” from many different domains for several years, and that is what we ought to expect of the examination authorities. Instead of saying, “We don’t have enough people to offer a Polish qualification, an Iranian qualification, a Serbo-Croat qualification or a Portuguese qualification”, we should be saying, “These are the economies of the future, which are growing and with which we will be trading. Let’s find a way to make sure, by the use of imagination and wit, that we can do more for less. Either you come with us on this journey, provide more for less and show that you can do it, or we will find someone else who can.”
The Minister of State, Department for Education (Mr Nick Gibb)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) on securing this debate, and pay tribute to him for his support of the study of foreign languages and for the way in which he consistently and energetically fights for the interests of his constituents in Enfield North.
Learning a foreign language is both a great pleasure and an excellent preparation for life in a modern country such as Britain, which has an outward looking and globalised economy. I also pay tribute to the all-party group on modern languages for the work it does in highlighting the importance of studying a modern foreign language in our modern economy. I also welcome the literally unique contributions from my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall)—the only Member with a degree in Serbo-Croat—and my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), the only Member who was born in Poland. My hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) also made a powerful short speech.
My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North is right to highlight the importance of languages for future economic growth. A report by the CBI published in 2014 found that 65% of businesses say they value foreign language skills, most importantly for building relations with overseas customers and overseas suppliers.
The Government’s programme of education reform has been the most far-reaching for a generation. We have restored rigour by introducing a new knowledge-based curriculum, which draws from the curriculums of the highest-performing jurisdictions around the world. We have raised the bar by reforming GCSEs and A-levels so that young people study genuinely demanding content, which provides a solid basis for further study and employment. Raising the status of foreign languages—both to increase take-up and improve attainment—has been central to this programme of reform.
In 2010, the study of foreign languages in English schools was in a precarious state. The removal of languages from the key stage 4 national curriculum in 2004 by the previous Labour Government led to a 36 percentage point decline in the number of pupils studying a modern foreign language at GCSE. In 2000, 79% of pupils studied a foreign language at GCSE. By 2010, that had fallen to 43%.
This Government have taken decisive action to address that decline. We agreed with the APPG on modern languages when, in its manifesto for languages, it talked about the need for a national recovery programme. We listened to the evidence on the importance of starting to learn a language early. Following the introduction of the new national curriculum in September last year, it is now compulsory for maintained primary schools to teach a language to all pupils between the ages of seven and 11. The new curriculum is also more demanding, with higher expectations for pupils’ speaking, writing, translation and grammar.
We recognised that the new curriculum would present challenges for some schools. We are therefore providing £1.8 million to fund nine projects across the country to support teaching of modern foreign languages. Many schools have responded well, and are going even further than the national curriculum requires. The language trends survey for 2014-15, published last week, found that 49% of primary schools are already teaching a language to five to seven-year-olds, even though it is not required by statute.
The new English baccalaureate performance measure has also been a hugely successful reform. The EBacc represents the strong academic core of subjects that all pupils should study, including a foreign language. As a result, the number of pupils in England taking at least one modern foreign language at GCSE has increased by 20% since 2010, and 29% since 2012.
We are also reforming GCSEs and A-levels so that they are more demanding and provide students with necessary knowledge for further study and employment. In 2014, we published reformed subject content requirements for GCSE, AS and A-level qualifications in modern foreign languages. The new GCSE will be more demanding, and most exam questions in modern languages will be asked in the target foreign language.
At A-level, the content has been strengthened, with new requirements for students to read foreign language literary works and develop a wide command of complex spoken and written language. In the past, some of the lesser-taught language GCSEs included no assessment of speaking or listening. Ofqual has decided that those elements, both of which are crucial to linguistic fluency, must be assessed in the reformed qualifications.
The new content for modern foreign languages specifies the knowledge expected of pupils taking the qualification in terms that apply to all languages. It is then for awarding organisations—the exam boards—to determine which languages to offer at GCSE, AS and A-level. We have made it clear to the exam boards that we want a broad range of subjects available to study. French, German and Spanish will always be important, and they do attract significant numbers of candidates: there are 150,000 entries for French GCSE, 57,000 for German and 71,000 for Spanish. Those subjects were therefore the first to be reformed and the new GCSEs will be in place for first teaching in September 2016, but I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North that young people should have the opportunity to study other, less familiar languages if we are to compete in the global economy.
British firms will increasingly demand staff who are fluent in languages such as Mandarin, Arabic, Polish and Turkish as they seek new markets and opportunities. We have therefore allowed the awarding organisations further time to develop new qualifications in additional languages for first teaching in 2017. They are free to develop qualifications in any language, provided that their specifications meet the subject content requirements set by the Department for Education and assessment arrangements set by Ofqual. Clearly, there is work involved in developing new GCSEs and A-levels that meet the new demands, and financial costs associated with the reform, but that should not prevent awarding organisations from offering reformed qualifications in a range of languages if they choose.
As my hon. Friend highlights, some exam boards have announced their intention to discontinue their qualifications in some languages. Those decisions appear to have been driven more by short-term commercial interests than by a robust analysis of the language skills our economy will clearly require in the future. He has raised specific concerns about AQA’s plan to discontinue Polish A-level and OCR’s plan to discontinue Turkish at both GCSE and A-level. I understand that 18,000 residents in the London Borough of Enfield speak Turkish as their first language, and my hon. Friend is right to recognise the extraordinary contribution the community makes to the local area and to London's economy. I agree with him that it is important that Turkish continues to be taught so that more young people can enjoy Turkish literature and culture, and so that British firms are well placed to make the most of Turkey's rapid economic growth. He and other hon. Friends mentioned Turkey’s growth, which I can tell them was about 26% between 2010 and 2013.
Mr Bacon
I am listening with great interest, but I hope my hon. Friend recognises the difference between, on the one hand, the unsurprising commercial considerations of commercial contractors making decisions in the short term, and on the other hand, the interests of this country, which are longer term. I am slightly uncomfortable with the language he is using about the choice being for the examining boards to make—that it is for them to decide what they offer. Surely it is for us as a country and as the House of Commons, and for Her Majesty’s Government, to decide what we want to do, and then to make sure that arrangements are in place—whether they are commercial or otherwise—to achieve the goals that we want to achieve?
Mark Lazarowicz
I look forward to the Minister coming to that point, and I hope he will show what the Government are going to do to encourage or even require the examining boards to meet the demand and the requirement for other languages that has been so clearly identified in this debate. We want not just good words, but action to make that happen.
Mr Gibb
I will come to that in a moment. First, I wanted to point out to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North and to other hon. Members that OCR plans to continue offering an IGCSE in first language Turkish, which I hope will be of interest to many of my hon. Friend’s constituents who already speak Turkish.
Nick de Bois
I want to put it on record that that has been examined by many people, but it is nowhere near the standard that we require for A-level and it will not achieve the objective, for example, of helping someone get into a university with that qualification.
Mr Gibb
I will take that point to the awarding organisations. Although the IGCSE will not count in school performance tables, the qualification is recognised by further and higher education as a demonstration of a student’s proficiency in the language. Clearly, though, the availability of the IGCSE is not a full substitute for a GCSE in Turkish as a foreign language, for those who are learning it as a second language rather than as a first language.
I have listened to the powerful case made by my hon. Friend and other hon. Members this evening on behalf of their constituents and others who recognise the importance of languages to our economy. I should point out, for the sake of balance in this debate, that the Turkish GCSE attracted only 1,403 entries last year, and for the Turkish A-level there were only 354 entries. Indeed, the entry figures have been consistently low for a number of years.
These relatively small numbers create some genuine difficulties for awarding organisations. In addition to diseconomies of scale, they may struggle to recruit sufficient staff to mark the exam and find it more difficult to set grade boundaries, given the statistical variability which is more likely in smaller cohorts. Nevertheless, I believe that these problems may well have solutions. Exam boards manage to recruit markers for the current version of the GCSE and they manage to set grade boundaries effectively.
My hon. Friend is correct. It is not the Government who are applying pressure, financial or otherwise, to reduce the number of foreign language GCSEs; quite the contrary. Having listened carefully to the arguments made by him and others, both during the debate and outside the Chamber, I will raise his concerns and those of other hon. Members with the chief executives of the awarding organisations, including OCR and AQA, and I will invite them to reconsider their current position—I will do that tomorrow—and to subordinate what I believe to be a commercial calculation to the far more significant long-term economic and cultural considerations for this country. In doing so, I will also question them closely about the financial rationale for their decisions.
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend and others for raising this important issue, and I pay tribute to his firm support for the key place of languages in our long-term plan for education and the economy.
Question put and agreed to.
Petitions
Eligibility of Members to vote on certain issues in the House of Commons
Funding for grammar schools in Southend
Closure of Dudley Police Station to the public
Inquests into deaths of military personnel
Westminster Hall
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Backbench Business
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Commonwealth Day
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)
It would not be appropriate to celebrate the Commonwealth without a contribution from Sir Alan Haselhurst, who is going to lead us in our debate on Commonwealth day.
Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. It has not escaped notice that Commonwealth day at Westminster appears to be a little bit late this year, but I am extremely grateful nevertheless to the Backbench Business Committee for finding a slot for this annual debate. I realise that, as we come to the end of the Parliament, there is great pressure on time. One thing I have tried to do while I have been involved in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association at national and international level is to ensure that as many parliamentary assemblies as possible across the Commonwealth should find an annual occasion to debate whatever issues about the Commonwealth or within it were of particular interest to their members. It would have been slightly unfortunate had we, in the rush of business at the end of this Parliament, failed to find that opportunity ourselves. We should say to our colleagues and friends across the Commonwealth that it was by no means an afterthought that we should be holding the debate on 24 March and not earlier.
The debate is a symbol of our interest in the Commonwealth and the fact that, in some ways, it is subliminal among parliamentarians that we take for granted our membership of the Commonwealth and the values that it upholds. It is important that we should, from time to time, make a signal effort to demonstrate our commitment. Talking of symbols, if I may dare to say so, I am modelling the new CPA UK branch tie, which we are launching today. I hope that it will come to be seen as a central part of the wardrobe of Members of Parliament.
This is an opportunity to review certain aspects of the Commonwealth from our perspective. We often regard ourselves in the Commonwealth as a family. We have matters that cause us concern, matters that cause us grief and matters that give us cause for celebration. We feel great concern for the peoples of the south Pacific, particularly in Vanuatu, a small community overwhelmed by natural disaster, to whom our hearts go out. We welcome the return to the Commonwealth of Fiji. At the same time, we are concerned about events in the Maldives, and we hope that the situation will sort itself out without too much difficulty.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Does he agree that now, or some time in the very near future, might be an appropriate time for the Irish Republic to consider returning to the Commonwealth? That might even offer the opportunity of a combined bid, between Northern Ireland and the Republic, for a future Commonwealth games.
Sir Alan Haselhurst
I do not necessarily want to cause diplomatic concern by talking about the possibility of the Republic wishing to return to the Commonwealth, but I have raised that matter during my chairmanship with the Speaker of the Dáil. It seems to me to be a natural thing to do, but it is up to the people of the Republic to decide. They would be very welcome and they would seem natural partners among the 53 nations that are part of the Commonwealth.
I am pleased, having made three visits to Sri Lanka during my international chairmanship, to see that there has been a peaceful change of power in that country, which I think is a great testament to all concerned. It is still a country troubled by the awful battles that were fought, and not all the memory of that has been erased satisfactorily, but the fact that there has been a peaceful election is a step forward.
It would also be appropriate for us to acknowledge the life of Lee Kuan Yew, whose death has just occurred. I have some personal memories of him. As a precocious prospective parliamentary candidate, I was travelling through Singapore for the first time in 1968 and I dared to call on the Prime Minister’s residence. It was amazing to me that he was prepared to find time to meet me on that occasion. So began a relationship that continued over a number of years, and in 1972, when I returned to Singapore as a parliamentarian, I found myself summoned to supper with him and his wife. It was, in many ways, an intimidating occasion to be closeted so privately with people of such distinction and intellect. It made me extremely uncomfortable in my clumsy handling of chopsticks while maintaining, one hoped, a civilised and constructive conversation. Singapore is sometimes described as the Asian tiger, and in some respects that term might be applied to Lee Kuan Yew himself, for his personal vision, his dedication and his forcefulness—let us be honest about it—in ensuring that Singapore became the powerful city state that we now know it to be.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
I thought for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman was going to say that the Prime Minister handled the situation very well and got over his nerves about meeting the right hon. Gentleman. Does he agree that is it not only a privilege, constitutionally and in every other way, to be part of the British Commonwealth, but that it brings benefits for inter-trade and for export and import to the United Kingdom as a whole?
Sir Alan Haselhurst
Yes, I absolutely agree with that, and I will say a word or two about that in a moment. I have one other reflection on my visit to Singapore. It was famous that so many things were prohibited in Singapore, using the well known sign of a circle with a bar across what it was that people could not do. In those days, my hair was a little longer than it is today. I was rather concerned to be meeting Lee Kuan Yew when I was not sure whether I passed the test so far as wearing long hair in his country was concerned, but our friendship managed to survive that difficulty. I salute his memory and all that he has done for his people.
The Commonwealth has many manifestations, but its reality cannot be taken for granted. I said earlier that the Commonwealth is subliminal for us, or in our DNA; nevertheless, we need to understand that not everybody has it at the forefront of their mind. I am still chilled by a discussion in which I was privileged to take part with the External Affairs Committee of the Lok Sabha in New Delhi, when one of its members said to me, “Well, you’ve got to understand that not many people here in India understand what the Commonwealth is about.” That was a shock to me, coming from a representative of the largest democracy in the Commonwealth by population; but it is true, is it not, that if we went around our towns and cities and asked the first 10 people we met what they understood about the Commonwealth, the answers might be somewhat meagre. The Commonwealth is there, and we take it for granted, but we should not take it for granted; we need to remind ourselves of its values.
Taking up the point made by the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) about commerce and trade, it is encouraging that the City of London is a partner in establishing the Commonwealth Enterprise and Investment Council. The City is a founding father of that organisation, for which much is hoped. The lord mayor, Alan Yarrow, describes himself as a child of the Commonwealth, having been born in Malaysia and educated in Singapore. Undoubtedly, the City of London is playing its part to make a reality of trade and finance among Commonwealth countries.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Does he agree that the Commonwealth theme for 2015, “A Young Commonwealth”, which recognises the contribution and potential of young people, is especially relevant to many countries, such as Pakistan, where a significant proportion of the population is under the age of 30? Thanks to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, I recently met a group of young parliamentarians from Pakistan here in Westminster, and their enthusiasm and energy gave me hope for the future development of that country.
Sir Alan Haselhurst
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention. Given the interventions we have heard so far, I am beginning to wonder whether my speech notes have somehow been circulated more widely than I had expected. I will respond to him in just a moment, if I may.
Today, I will mainly concentrate on the work of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. It is a huge honour to have been the chairperson of the United Kingdom branch, and I could never have guessed that, within a year of accepting that post, I would find myself as the international chairman. I would describe the three-year period that I served in that position from 2011 to 2014 as both a joy and a challenge. The fact that I was welcomed so generously in all those parts of the Commonwealth, small and large, that I was able to visit during the term of my chairmanship was uplifting. I felt that, in a modest way, I was some sort of symbol of what the Commonwealth meant.
However, the governance of the CPA at international level presented a serious challenge, which is ironic because, as much as anything, the CPA is about promoting good governance. We believe that if there are stable systems of government—representative parliamentary democracy— in each Commonwealth country, bound by common principles and standards that have been signed into the charter by Her Majesty the Queen as head of the Commonwealth, it will lead to confidence in the economies of those countries, to investment, to the creation of jobs and to the advancement of their peoples. I am pleased that the Select Committee on International Development has stressed the importance of good governance, and I have always tried to say that the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association can be one of the most effective instruments for trying to ensure the improvement of governing practices.
Great work is being done. Wherever one looks, particularly at regional and national levels throughout the Commonwealth’s Parliaments and Assemblies, one will find people who are engaged in that work. The willingness of my parliamentary colleagues here to give time and the willingness of officials is replicated in other countries as well. There is an enormous amount of interchange, training, workshops and so on, because there is always churn—an increasing churn rate in some cases—in members of the respective Parliaments, so there is always someone new who needs to learn the ropes; someone who, having realised their ambition to be elected, suddenly realises that they have these responsibilities and wants to learn how best to discharge them.
Therefore, I found it quite difficult that at the apex of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, in its structure internationally, it was not the best exemplar of good governance. I like to think, somewhat immodestly, that there were some advances during my three years as chairperson. We saw an extension of the Commonwealth women parliamentarians network—it is still not fully complete, but it has advanced considerably. I seem to have persuaded colleagues that the institution of a Commonwealth Youth Parliament should be an annual event, bringing people from all parts of the Commonwealth to an assembly in which they can perform. After one hiccup, when Andhra Pradesh was going to be the host and the state was divided by a decision of the Indian Government—that year it fell through— the Commonwealth Youth Parliament was held last year in the legislature of the North West province of South Africa. The UK delegate, Meera Sonecha, became Leader of the Opposition and even, briefly, Prime Minister following a vote of no confidence. I hope this year’s UK’s representative will distinguish himself or herself to the same degree.
In all my contact with the Commonwealth Youth Parliament, I have been impressed by the young people who are coming through. We can have hope for the future in that respect, provided that we say to young people, who make up such a high proportion of the Commonwealth’s population, that their voice can be heard consistently. If we are listening, they will have confidence in talking to us, proposing their own ideas and, indeed, building their own ambition to take part in the governance of their respective countries. So that was good.
I also advanced the representation of small states of the Commonwealth. We will have an annual small states conference, and I want to see a representative of those small states as an extra person on the executive committee to put their point of view. The small states sometimes feel that they are the poor relations just because they are small—some of them are very small, and some of them are in scattered areas of the Caribbean or the south Pacific. We established a mentoring scheme whereby parliamentarians with long experience can be linked with someone who is new to their Parliament or Assembly so that they can continue the discussion. They do not have to meet people on an occasional basis; they can pick up the telephone or use e-mail to make contact.
More prosaically, we at last managed to implant the principle of internal audit in the CPA structure. Some people had difficulty understanding the principle, although it is actually commonplace in their respective Parliaments and, quite rightly, it needed to be introduced at international level. The CPA’s governance structure does not help it to do the work that it needs to be doing. One of the things that has bugged the CPA for two decades or more is the fact that some members are uncomfortable with the CPA’s legal status as a charity based in the United Kingdom, which I suspect evokes a colonial memory that is unhelpful to what the modern Commonwealth is all about. We have spent a great deal of time trying to find an alternative status that will be acceptable and workable, but of course the whole point of charitable status is not somehow to be degrading; it is a protection against tax. All our purposes are charitable, and therefore it makes sense for us to have that status. However, it was uncomfortable for some. We argued and argued and argued about it, and never found a solution.
The executive committee is the governing body of the CPA internationally. It has nine regions, each of which has three representatives, except Africa, which has six representatives. That gives an idea of how large it is—bigger than the Cabinet of our country and most other countries. It meets not weekly—obviously—but only twice a year, with a rotating membership. In fact, each region’s representatives rotate—they are on the committee for three years and then they go—so there is no enduring memory within that body to ensure that good governance takes place.
Also, there was a resistance to the idea of changing the practice whereby the regional secretaries, who are professional people and often clerks in their own countries, could not even sit in on the meetings that take place. When I pointed out that if messages from the executive were to percolate through to all the 175 branches of the CPA, it would seem essential to put some professional “oomph” behind it, I was told, “Well, no, the regional representatives are the ones who do that.” However, if a regional representative is not at the meeting for any reason, there will obviously be a breakdown in communication: they cannot get the messages back to their home branches. Nevertheless, there seems to have been resistance, up to now, to the idea that the regional representative should do what we normally expect our professional advisers, in the form of our clerks, to do: to ensure that decisions taken are translated into action. That does not happen with the CPA internationally.
Then there has been the collection of a very large sum of money in reserves, which now amounts to about £9 million. Prudent management of the finances is, of course, vital. However, if the income of the CPA internationally is roughly £2.5 million, the reserve that it is necessary to keep to guard against any difficulty does not need to be £9 million. It seems to me that, to some extent, that money would be better dispensed in doing work in the regions to ensure that the network of, say, women’s branches or youth branches is strengthened.
It was rather dispiriting that the last words published in The Parliamentarian by the—alas now deceased—secretary-general of the CPA, Dr Shija, seemed to concentrate on the CPA acquiring new premises in London, with a conference facility, an apartment for the secretary-general and so on. That seemed something of a departure from what the main purposes of the CPA should be. My vision—if I dare use that expression—is that we should build up the position of the small states and that their representative on the executive should be an officer of the CPA, alongside the chair of the Commonwealth women parliamentarians group and the treasurer, the vice-chairman and the chairperson. Similarly, with the youth structure we should see someone becoming the apex of the young people of the Commonwealth, so that he or she can play their part.
I was encouraged by a message I received from the executive director of Commonwealth Youth New Zealand, Aaron Hape, who tells me that a week ago they celebrated this year’s Commonwealth theme, “A Young Commonwealth”, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) has made reference. Aaron says:
“I was delighted to see supporters of CYNZ attend many events across New Zealand, and indeed, internationally, to celebrate this important occasion. What struck me was the amount of new faces that were present at these events.”
How many of us can say that about the young people in our country recognising the Commonwealth and celebrating its activities?
The other advantage of an enlarged officer structure is that one would be able to have rotation, so that every region would feel that it had some say at the top table. It is always the Pacific region that seems to have lost out in that regard over the years. It would be easier to have a rotation system whereby every region could expect that within a period of, say, five years, it would have one of the officers of the association.
Those are my reflections. My international term of office ended in October last year. My successor is Dr Shirin Sharmin Chaudhury, the Speaker of the Bangladesh Parliament. I find her to be a hugely impressive parliamentarian. She has already built upon the role that the CPA has at the Heads of Government meeting, and the Maltese have been very accommodating to the CPA and to the representations that she has made. She is determined to broaden the scope still further of the Commonwealth women parliamentarians group. She represented the CPA at the commission on the status of women in New York and she is also keen to promote the voice of young people.
I believe that there is the opportunity to make the CPA at international level more than the sum of its parts, so that we have all that is best in so many different regions. In the UK, we do a terrific amount of work in promoting good governance and good relations between parliamentarians, and I see that in various other regions of the Commonwealth as well, but it is about bringing it together. From the centre, we should be disseminating best practice, showing that in our own structures we have got it right so far as good governance is concerned and therefore can preach the message with confidence to others, to remind people continually what our Commonwealth means and how we should put its principles into practice. That should be our constant aim, and the more we can put the spotlight on it, the better it will be and the stronger the Commonwealth will become.
Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)
Thank you very much indeed. As we are operating under the rules of the Backbench Business Committee, we will get to hear from Sir Alan for two or three minutes at the end of the debate, so that he can sum up the rest of the contributions. Perhaps he can tell us how we can get hold of one of the CPA ties that he is so handsomely sporting today.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Thank you, Mr Hollobone, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to have a chance to contribute on this matter.
First, I thank the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) for securing this debate. Whatever time of year this debate happens, it is always good to speak in it, and to remember what the Commonwealth is, what it stands for and what it means to each and every one of us.
I am thankful for this debate not only because it is on an important topic but because it is less of a debate and more of a coming together to celebrate the Commonwealth and all the positives that its existence brings. The Commonwealth is often described as a family of nations and peoples, and that is exactly how I and many other people see it. As I have emphasised on many occasions, I am a firm believer in and supporter of the Commonwealth, because of all that it symbolises, does and stands for.
I believe that to be a nation that upholds the core beliefs that our Commonwealth sets out is a testament to the integrity of that nation and, in turn, the substance of its society. I find it difficult to imagine it possible not to be proud to be a part of an organisation that affirms support for democracy, human rights, tolerance, respect, understanding, freedom of expression and gender equality. However, while that speaks volumes about the merits of member nations, what makes the loudest noise is the success that happens when we pool the abilities, the diversity and the innovation of our respective societies. That is when we are strongest, and it is what this debate is about.
I am very pleased to see the Minister in Westminster Hall today. I have spoken to him on many occasions about the persecution of Christians. Sometimes within the Commonwealth of nations, preventing the persecution of Christians has not been adhered to by some nations; I know that, and I know that the Minister knows it. Perhaps in his response to the debate, he could give us some indication of what he has been able to do through his Department to act within the Commonwealth and to persuade those Commonwealth nations that perhaps do not adhere rigidly or respectfully to the rules about religious freedom to better that situation.
The Commonwealth forms an integral part of our collective identity. We may see it most prominently in the form of our beloved Commonwealth games. Who cannot be impressed by the Commonwealth games? They are one of the most watched events on television, and people are always keen to see the medal tally and how their country is doing. That is one of the good things that the Commonwealth does.
The work of the Commonwealth reaches all corners of the globe. Often, it is not realised that the Commonwealth is not one organisation but an impressive network of more than 80 societies, institutions, associations, organisations and charities that work towards improving people’s lives. Although it provides a powerful symbol of our unity, it is much more than that. The work of these organisations on a vast range of issues, including helping countries with trade negotiations, should be celebrated. The Commonwealth is more than just a commonwealth of nations. For example, it provides an opportunity for trade exchanges and trade negotiations to build our economies, here at home in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and across the world. Those organisations also work on encouraging women’s leadership and building the small business sector and, very aptly in accordance with this year’s theme, supporting youth participation at all levels of society.
I am pleased that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned Commonwealth youth. I want to focus on that, too. Maintaining the strength of the Commonwealth is of utmost importance. That is why I welcome the theme of this year’s Commonwealth celebrations: “A Young Commonwealth.” When we leave the scene of time, those who are left—the young people—will have to maintain our Commonwealth. We recognise the advantages this brings to each and every one of us.
The strength of the Commonwealth is in our being united by language, history, culture, and most of all, a shared view of the value of democracy and all that we expect to come with this. Her Majesty the Queen spoke poignantly about what we have worked toward and achieved through co-operation, and what we must do to ensure continued co-operation. It was apt that Her Majesty spoke on the significance of communication, saying that to come together to talk, to exchange ideas and develop common goals, can in itself bring fantastic outcomes, if only those channels of communication are open to us. Our Commonwealth offers us a clear channel of communication, allowing us to make these wonderful things to which Her Majesty referred happen.
The emphasis on partnership in discussion of this year’s celebrations should signal to us—no matter our region—that partnership, co-operation and union is the best way forward. My colleague and hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) mentioned that the Republic of Ireland will, hopefully, join the Commonwealth. That is an aspiration, a wish and a hope. It would be good if it happened.
Although there is diversity in abundance throughout all 53 of our Commonwealth nations, whether in culture or size, we have recognised that in spite of this we hold more in common than not. This commonality and commitment to shared values signals to us that there is great benefit to be found in our continued co-operation, not only for us as nation states and parliamentarians, but for our respective peoples and all the nations together.
Again, I want to adopt a positive tone. It is worth drawing on Her Majesty’s words. She said that co-operation also helps us avoid what a breakdown in communication can bring. Often, if we do not talk there can be problems. Only through open and continued dialogue can we address these dangers. The interests and fears we hold in common now perhaps make this continued co-operation more relevant than ever. The common challenges we face are best met together. We can overcome those issues on the sporting field and the economic field and it is important that we continue to make that happen.
With all the evident positives of co-operation, our choice to celebrate “A Young Commonwealth” shows that we have acknowledged the key to our strong future. Our young people are the future of our Commonwealth. I hold dear the belief that our Commonwealth will stay strong because of the aspirations and commitment of our young people.
Across all our nations we have bright, innovative and passionate young minds. Our Commonwealth relies on this innovation and passion to give fresh, new impetus to all our collective endeavours. I say this in good conscience as I reflect on the young people of Northern Ireland. We in Northern Ireland are proud to be part of the Commonwealth. In fact, the Northern Ireland Assembly branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association has participated in Commonwealth day for the last seven years, holding a range of themed events. This year’s theme worked in conjunction with the “Rock the Vote” campaign—there is no better time for such a campaign than around 7 May—and served as a reminder of our own responsibility as legislators, which is to keep our younger generation engaged in democracy and, most of all, to motivate them to vote. The campaign focuses on encouraging young people to participate and get involved in the political process, and it is key to meeting the concerns of a young electorate who are becoming increasingly disillusioned with the political process. We simply cannot let that happen.
The commitment of the Commonwealth to democracy and the rule of law holds legitimacy only when our electorate participate. For this reason, we must reach out to our young voters and soon-to-be voters. These young people will be not only voters, but our legislators, diplomats and parliamentarians. They will be the navigators of the new age of the Commonwealth. In Northern Ireland, these young people will be the navigators of our political landscape and of the complexities it brings. In Northern Ireland, we have moved leaps and bounds in the political process, as the Minister knows, having previously been Minister of State for Northern Ireland. His relationship with Northern Ireland came about not only through Parliament, but, I understand, from his service in uniform.
We in Northern Ireland have moved forward. Our young people will be the politicians of tomorrow and they can meet our future challenges. What is more, and as mentioned in speeches at the Northern Ireland “A Young Commonwealth” event, those born in the post-Good Friday era are reaching voting age. We have moved on in the peace process and those 18-year-olds will be casting their vote. This different generation brings a lot of promise and opportunity regarding how they engage with the political process. We need to challenge the idea that young people do not care about politics and show them that they should care, and that politics is beyond our debating in a chamber, whether or not it is a debate on this subject.
I may speak on a regional level, but I know that what I say will hold gravitas in many other Commonwealth nations. I believe that, if we renew our younger generation’s interest in the political process, our nations have a bright future in which we can move forward together as a Commonwealth. I am sure that the range of Commonwealth day events has been equally impressive across all nations and hope that our youth’s claiming centre stage conveys just how much they matter, now and in future.
I shall quote Her Majesty once more, as her words perfectly summarise the sentiment I am trying to convey:
“We are guardians of a precious flame, and it is our duty not only to keep it burning brightly but to keep it replenished for the decades ahead.”
Wise words, strong words. Commonwealth day reminds us of this flame that we hold in common. The youth of our Commonwealth are the guardians of this flame and I trust and know that they will keep it alight. To maintain the Commonwealth, we must keep that flame and belief in our Commonwealth alight in our young people. The first step to doing this is ensuring their engagement and their belief in our democratic process.
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)
I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who emphasised the importance of youth within the Commonwealth, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) in an intervention on my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst). I want to return to the role of youth, perhaps with a glancing reference to Cakegate in Northern Ireland, the meaning of which may become clearer in respect of the main issue that I want to raise.
First, I pay tribute to the leadership that my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden has given to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I do not know whether his speech was circulated beforehand—I had not seen a copy—so it came as a delightful surprise to discover that we had crossed paths in 1968 in Singapore. At the time, I was seven years old and attempting to learn to swim at the Tanglin Club. My father was stationed as a colonel on the staff in Singapore, trying to organise the withdrawal of United Kingdom forces from their permanent base station.
I was particularly impressed by my right hon. Friend’s leadership of the CPA at the Commonwealth parliamentary conference last October. Although I was elected in 1997, I had not taken the opportunity to attend the Commonwealth parliamentary conference until last year, when—having been freed of the responsibilities of ministerial office by the Prime Minister in 2012—it struck me that the Commonwealth and its institutions provided a suitable vehicle through which to identify and work for one of the causes that I intended to use my parliamentary position to pursue: the protection of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights around the world.
Within that nexus, I was happy to become chair of the parliamentary friends of the Kaleidoscope Trust, a non-governmental organisation dedicated to advancing the cause of rights for LGBT people around the world, and to use the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association as a safe place where it ought to be possible to have difficult, sensitive conversations with fellow parliamentarians from the 41 of the 53 Commonwealth jurisdictions where LGBT people are criminalised. That is one of the unhappy legacies. One of the things that brings the Commonwealth together is the British legal system. Many states have on their statute books legislation that was in place in the colonial era, reflecting some of the less attractive Victorian values that were imposed on their societies in a period of British Administration.
In international terms, the Commonwealth is an organisation dealing in soft power rather than hard power and a place where we can bring this extraordinary range of countries and peoples together to discuss issues. As part of that soft support, the CPA is a place where it is possible to speak to one’s fellow parliamentarians to explain the journey that the United Kingdom has been on—from active enforcement of the laws in the 1950s, to a review of them in the Wolfenden report of 1957, to decriminalisation and then to equality in most of the United Kingdom, with the delivery of same-sex marriage.
The organisation is also about making clear to one’s fellow parliamentarians that we are not expecting them to change—it took 60 years in the United Kingdom—in one smooth movement, given that they have to operate within the popular views of societies where the strongly embedded religious organisations and Churches take a very didactic view of these issues. It is reasonable for us to use the CPA to educate, at least in that sense, our fellow parliamentarians and illuminate their experiences.
I commend the leadership given on that issue, not only by my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden in the CPA, but by the serving secretary-general of the Commonwealth. Only three weeks ago, Kamalesh Sharma addressed the high level segment of the United Nations Human Rights Council in its 28th regular session in Geneva on 3 March. He represents an organisation three quarters of whose jurisdictions outlaw people such as me in their statute books. He said:
“Mr President, a 2011 report, requested by the Council and prepared by the Office of the High Commissioner, documented discriminatory laws and practices and acts of violence against individuals based on their sexual orientation and gender identity, and how international human rights law can be used to end violence and related human rights violations in this area. In September last year, this Council adopted a new resolution on the subject, once again expressing grave concern and requesting the High Commissioner to produce an update of the report with a view to sharing good practices and ways to overcome violence and discrimination. We look forward to the publication of the report. We will be encouraging Commonwealth member states to reflect and act on its actionable recommendations in order to give effect to our shared commitment to dignity, equality and nondiscrimination.”
I salute the secretary-general for the leadership he is taking.
I thank the Royal Commonwealth Society and the Kaleidoscope Trust for their work. They have jointly produced a report called “Collaboration and consensus: building a constructive Commonwealth approach to LGBT rights”, which I commend to all those interested in the advancement of LGBT rights internationally. I particularly commend it to the Minister who has responsibility in this area.
I know that all the Ministers in the Foreign Office have taken a leadership role on this issue. Only last week, I met the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge), to discuss informally how to advance the agenda. I met the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire), to discuss the issue before the conference last year that the previous Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), held on the wider human rights agenda. That conference got significant attention, as it deserved.
During his term in office, the previous Foreign Secretary was prepared to meet such activists as Dr Frank Mugisha, from Sexual Minorities Uganda. Uganda has been at the centre of the debate. The issue is about giving that level of moral support by being prepared to meet the activists, who are being unbelievably brave. Their predecessors in these countries have been murdered; that has happened not only in Uganda, but in Jamaica. It is about understanding the courage of people standing up for the rights of LGBT people in conditions where popular sentiment is in a very different place from here and violence is incited against them. That demonstration of moral support was welcome, and I thank my right hon. Friend for giving that signal.
There is an extreme set of positions on LGBT rights in Commonwealth countries. In such countries as the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Canada, the legal battle for equality has pretty much been won. Aspects remain, although they are perhaps minor in terms of the whole United Kingdom. In Northern Ireland, for example, there is controversy over the same-sex couple who wanted to buy a cake to celebrate their wedding and have something that they thought appropriate written on it. If someone is in the business of selling services, they should be absolutely clear that they cannot discriminate against people who buy those services. That should be utterly straightforward.
Jim Shannon
The hon. Gentleman mentions a legal case that will be heard shortly—at the end of this month. It may go on for about four weeks, but it would be remiss of me not at least to make a statement on Ashers bakery and the stand that it took. It believes that it exercised freedom of expression and that it had a right to do so. I stand strongly behind the Ashers bakery, as do others.
Crispin Blunt
The hon. Gentleman is entitled to take that position. However, I hope that he will reflect, as the case plays out, on what it means when someone wants to buy a service freely available to everyone else but is told that they cannot have it because they are gay.
Crispin Blunt
That is, in effect, the hon. Gentleman’s position. We want to get parliamentarians from all over the Commonwealth to empathise with what it actually means for someone to be in such a position. People have no control over how they are. We want parliamentarians to find a way to give people the freedom to be as they are and to understand how important that is to them and how unfair it is to have laws on the statute book that discriminate against them.
The question is one of trying to use the institutions of the Commonwealth to educate parliamentarians without confrontation. It is a process of education and understanding, and it is a journey that I have been on. Given the nature of the societies that we all come from and the extraordinary journey that understanding of and attitudes to LGBT rights have made in the United Kingdom over the past 60 years, I make no criticism of colleagues in this place, or parliamentarians in other countries, who are yet to have that level of understanding.
Nevertheless, I say to the Minister and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office that despite all the support from the human rights officers in posts overseas and the moral support and leadership shown by FCO Ministers, and despite the leadership shown by the Prime Minister in raising these issues at Commonwealth Heads of Government meetings, there comes a moment, as in Uganda, when some small demonstration of firm disapproval may be appropriate.
Happily, although the law in Uganda had been made significantly worse by the Anti-Homosexuality Act, the Act was struck down because it was not passed with the required quorum. That has given Uganda an opportunity for a period of reflection about what to do next. In the current circumstances, implementing any kind of sanctions or formal methods of disapproval would be inappropriate.
Nevertheless, if laws are promoted in Commonwealth countries that make discrimination against LGBT people worse, and the situation is made even more difficult and the climate even more uncomfortable for people with a minority sexual orientation, I hope that we would at least contemplate small measures, such as targeted travel bans for those responsible for making the situation worse for a significant percentage of Commonwealth citizens.
Bearing in mind the population of the whole Commonwealth, we are talking about hundreds of millions of people being affected by laws heading in the wrong direction. We must use the Commonwealth to allow laws and their implementation to follow steadily the route taken in the United Kingdom and elsewhere, where we have come to understand that having a minority sexual orientation is not something that people catch but something that they are born with. It is only right and proper that people should have the basic protections from discrimination that are embedded in the Commonwealth charter and the universal declaration on human rights, to which all nations of the Commonwealth have signed up.
In conclusion, I pay tribute again to my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden for securing this debate and, much more importantly, for his outstanding leadership of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. He gave us some small flavour of the challenges that he faced in exercising that leadership. The CPA is obviously but one part of all the institutions of the Commonwealth. I look forward to the Minister’s response to the debate, which is relatively close to Commonwealth day, and to hearing his review of such an extraordinary institution and the opportunities it presents to advance the rights and status, both economic and social, of all Commonwealth citizens.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone—we both learned how meetings should properly be conducted on Bromley council.
I pay tribute to two individuals. First, the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst), who not only made a distinguished contribution to the debate but has played a considerable role in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association—both the UK branch and, as he outlined, worldwide. With his usual frankness, he acknowledged that his work has not been without its difficulties. He has played a significant role in trying to move the organisation along. His work is very much appreciated and I hope that it will steadily bear fruit over the coming years.
Were it not outwith the procedures of the House, I would also draw attention to the welcome presence of the chief executive of the UK CPA, who is listening to proceedings from the Public Gallery. Through you, Mr Hollobone, I thank him and his staff for the enormous amount of work that they do in maintaining the organisation and assisting individual members. They also do great work with the various groups that come here from other Commonwealth countries for valuable exchanges of views and ideas, from which I am sure that those groups benefit and I know that we do too.
I join the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden in paying tribute to the founding father of modern Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew, whose death was announced this week. He was a figure not without controversy, but no one can doubt his achievements to the great benefit of his country, the Association of Southeast Asian Nations generally and the wider Commonwealth. It is no surprise that his wise counsel was sought by not only his successors in Singapore, but leaders and diplomats around the world. That has been evident in the tributes paid to him. On Sir Christopher Wren’s gravestone in St Paul’s cathedral is the inscription:
“If you seek my monument look around you.”
Looking around modern Singapore, one can see clearly the monument to Lee Kuan Yew, as well as his ultimate achievement of ensuring a system and progress that will continue after his demise.
A while ago my local council, Sandwell, was on an anti-litter purge, which gained some press coverage. Some busybody organisation that hoped to insult Sandwell dubbed it, the “Singapore of the west midlands”. The high commission here was slightly concerned, but my local council leaders were immensely flattered by the description.
I agree with the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden on the importance of having an annual debate on the Commonwealth to help us to focus, although I think we would hope that future debates do not take place just a couple of days before Dissolution. The debate on the Commonwealth is part of a wider debate about Britain’s position and role in the world. Some want to make us an inward, insular country, bitter at the outside world. That is not in Britain’s history, nor is it in its interests or destiny. In many ways, it is a replay of the old debate of “Little England” or “Great Britain”. That relates to our membership of the most successful defensive alliance in history, NATO; to the largest single market on the planet, the European Union, and to our position as a P5 country at the UN.
No less remarkable was the creation of the Commonwealth out of the end of empire—a multicultural, multi-ethnic body that has overcome so many of the issues of our shared history. Even countries that do not share that legacy are keen to join the Commonwealth, which is a significant tribute in itself—some hon. Members from Northern Ireland mentioned applicant countries for consideration. Without a hint of superiority or arrogance, we should take pride in the institutions and values that we have introduced worldwide, not least the institution of parliamentary democracy and the rule of law with an impartial judiciary. The success of Singapore—and, interestingly enough, of Hong Kong—is testimony to the ongoing strength and legacy of an impartial judiciary, but it goes much wider.
Learning from each other is by no means a one-way street. Debates in Westminster Hall derive from the Australian Parliament: we have a side Chamber with the full value of the main Chamber that allows more subjects to be debated—not only subjects of interest to individual Members of Parliament but debates such as this one.
Part of the Commonwealth’s shared history has been in conflict. Throughout the country, we are currently commemorating many of the events of the first world war, and we are reminded very strongly and deeply of their impact. I have been visiting Sikh gurdwaras around the country, where tremendous work has been done on researching the history and reminding youngsters of the significant contribution of the Sikhs in the first world war. They came to a continent that they had never visited and were faced with dramatically different weather conditions, and they fought bravely and at great cost against German imperialism. They were only one of the communities from the then India who participated at great cost to themselves.
Next month will be the commemoration of the landings at Gallipoli, with services at the Cenotaph and in Westminster abbey. The Minister and I are representing our respective parties at those events. The Gallipoli action not only defined the character of Australia and New Zealand, but deepened the bonds between their countries and ours.
In the absence of the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), it would be remiss of me not to follow up on the comments of the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden about the unique concerns and problems of small states. Had the hon. Member for Romford been present, I am certain that he would have raised once again the position of the Crown dependencies and overseas territories. We need to see how their concerns can be incorporated. Furthermore, on the smaller states, last year I had the privilege of attending a conference of south Pacific states held in New Zealand. That was an excellent CPA initiative. Those states are under considerable pressure from a China that is seeking to expand its influence in the area—they are not hostile but have some concerns—and the ability to discuss the issue within the framework of the Commonwealth was very much appreciated and understood.
As I said, this is not only a Commonwealth of nations, but a Commonwealth of values: parliamentary democracy, free trade, universal human rights and, especially, a commitment to pluralism. To be frank, in some cases—this has been mentioned by a number of hon. Members today—our relations with fellow Commonwealth members can be slightly strained over some issues. The hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) highlighted a particular one. Will the Minister indicate the actions taken and representations made by the Government on the important concerns that the hon. Gentleman expressed? It is right to raise such issues.
Putting that in the wider context of values and the very welcome Commonwealth charter, I have another question. At the Perth Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting—CHOGM—there was, as I understand it, much discussion but postponement of a final decision on the report of the eminent persons group. Some of its work is reflected in the Commonwealth charter, but what further work will be undertaken to build on that of the eminent persons group?
The Commonwealth is not simply a static organisation. Maintenance of linkages needs to be undertaken and a particular one is the “Young Commonwealth” theme. Young people make up a significant percentage of the populations of many countries in the Commonwealth. Focusing attention on that for the future of their societies and of the Commonwealth is extremely welcome.
There is also the work between states. I pay tribute to some of that work that the Government have undertaken, in particular by developing relations with India and, significantly, in the valuable connections of the AUKMIN group of Australian and United Kingdom Ministers. The next Labour Government look forward to continuing such initiatives.
[Mr James Gray in the Chair]
However, some of this Government’s actions have put relations under strain. Only a week or so ago, a meeting hosted by the Russell Group of universities echoed and amplified the great complaints of the tertiary education sector about the negative impact on them and on British industry, commerce and society of our over-prescriptive visa regime, which has already caused a big decline in the number of students from India, Australia, New Zealand and other Commonwealth countries. Real concerns have also been expressed by the Governments of Australia and New Zealand about the declining opportunities for their youngsters, many of them our relatives, to spend time working here, contributing to the British economy and gaining experience to take back to their home countries to develop their growing economies, which, incidentally, are also major trading partners of ours.
Given the large number of countries in the Commonwealth, I can touch only on a limited number of them. Mention has been made of the welcome return to the Commonwealth of Fiji, which is particularly good news for the British Army. I remember officials at the Ministry of Defence telling me that they had had expressions of interest from Fijian soldiers about joining the British Army and asking what we would do about it. We set up some protocols but, with some foresight, I predicted that that would play havoc with the inter-service rugby competition, to the benefit of the Army, although I had not anticipated the havoc in the regimental rugby system, because a number of the Fijians played for some of the previously more minor regiments. It is welcome that Fiji is back in the Commonwealth, following what is generally regarded as a successful election. Obviously we must ensure that such developments continue to make progress, in particular in the field of trade union rights.
Concerns have been expressed widely, if not in the debate today, about the imprisonment in Malaysia of Opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim on sodomy charges. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) has raised the issue. A number of Opposition Members and activists there have been arrested too. Will the Minister indicate what action our Government have taken in response to such concerns?
A number of constituencies have sizeable Bangladeshi communities which, whatever their views or whichever party in Bangladesh they supported, are concerned about the escalating tensions in Bangladesh and about the unnecessary violence and tragic deaths. In the election in January last year, not all the people of Bangladesh were able to express their democratic will fully. Progress can be achieved only through dialogue between all parties. All sides need to call for restraint and an end to violence. The international community should certainly support Bangladesh in that regard.
On the Maldives, concern about due process has been expressed about the arrest, conviction and sentencing to 13 years in prison of former President Nasheed. The Commonwealth has discussed the matter and is providing a measured response. It is important for the Commonwealth to work together to promote democracy and due process.
As the hon. Member for Reigate indicated, equality is a significant underpinning of the Commonwealth, but LGBT equality remains a major omission from the Commonwealth charter. Will the Government pursue the issue with individual countries and more generally in the Commonwealth?
With regard to Sri Lanka, there has been a welcome change as a result of the election. It is also important for the further upcoming parliamentary elections to be free, fair and peaceful. We look forward to the postponed publication of the report of the UN Human Rights Council inquiry, to improvement in relations between the communities in Sri Lanka and in the independence of the judiciary and the rule of law—justice and accountability—and to the country getting back to rebuilding its economy and society.
That is only a small number of the issues facing the Commonwealth today, but they indicate its vibrancy in tackling them, which adds to the ability of the Commonwealth countries to work and trade with each other. In particular in Africa, the attempts to break down customs and other barriers to trade between countries are important and would be to the benefit of the countries, which have huge young populations with a real need for employment. The Commonwealth offers a beacon of hope and a mechanism for dealing with such issues.
Jim Shannon
On a point of order, Mr Gray. The hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) stated that the Ashers bakery had refused to bake a cake for a same-gender couple. Let it be very clear that that is not the case: Ashers said that it was unwilling to use the wording that was requested on the cake. The issue is the right of those at Ashers bakery to hold fast to their religious views. Incidentally, according to the latest poll, the vast majority of the population in Northern Ireland—over 70%—supports them.
Mr James Gray (in the Chair)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. However, that is not a point of order but a point of information. He believes that something that another hon. Member has said was incorrect. By his intervention he has put his remarks in Hansard, but what he has raised is not a matter for the Chair.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on securing this debate, whether timely or otherwise. I thank other hon. Members for their contributions.
I pay tribute to the work of my right hon. Friend and of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which, as he has outlined so eloquently, has done so much to forge ties and strengthen democracy across the Commonwealth. I associate myself with his warm words about the founding father of Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew. My right hon. Friend’s commitment to the CPA was much in evidence at its recent conference on human rights in the modern-day Commonwealth, at which I spoke. He may have come to the end of his tenure as chair of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, but I, like other Ministers across Government and Back Benchers on both sides of the House, have always valued his immense contribution. I hope we will continue to benefit from his insight and experience on Commonwealth matters—I am sure we will.
I also congratulate and welcome the incoming chair, Dr Shirin Sharmin Chaudhury, Speaker of the Bangladesh Parliament, whom I met earlier this month. I wish her well and hope she has great success in her new role. I trust that, as her predecessor, my right hon. Friend will feel able to share with her his clear and well argued vision for the association’s future. I am certain she will continue to enjoy the full support of the excellent CPA secretariat.
I share my right hon. Friend’s deep respect and admiration for the Commonwealth. Indeed, the Government have made no secret of our strong support for that unique organisation. Since my appointment as Minister for the Commonwealth, I have worked to uphold our pledge to put the C back into the FCO, not least because, as my ministerial travels have reminded me, we owe our friends in the Commonwealth an enormous debt of gratitude. I have made it a habit to pay my respects where possible at the many memorials across the world that commemorate the names of the 1.7 million men and women of the Commonwealth forces who died in the two world wars, fighting to defend the freedoms we enjoy today. I pay tribute to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which has so beautifully maintained those memorials.
The Commonwealth today is about much more than its past, however. It is a global network of 53 equal partners, which offers a wealth of opportunities to work together on trade and on issues such as climate change. The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) spoke passionately about extending the network by one member. I will refrain from commenting on that matter, other than to say that it is not a new idea.
To make the most of the opportunities the Commonwealth offers, while never forgetting the shared history that brought us all together in the first place, we must spend more time looking to the future. My hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) pointed out that 60% of the Commonwealth’s population is under the age of 30. This year’s Commonwealth day on 9 March rightly celebrated that, with the theme “A Young Commonwealth”. At the Commonwealth day observance at Westminster abbey, I was delighted to see our Commonwealth envoy sitting among the high commissioners. For obvious reasons we do not have a British high commissioner in London, and for too long that has meant that we have not been represented at a senior level at Commonwealth meetings. The new post of envoy ensures, for the first time, that we have a dedicated envoy to represent our views at the Commonwealth. That important institutional change will, I believe, make clear to all the value we attach to our membership of the organisation.
After a successful Commonwealth day, our thoughts now turn to the next Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Malta, where the theme will be “adding global value”. I am delighted that Her Majesty the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh will attend. A future CHOGM is planned to take place in Vanuatu; our thoughts are with all those affected by Cyclone Pam. I have been to Vanuatu, and have been watching with horror the devastation that has been wreaked upon it. I am pleased to say that the United Kingdom is providing £2 million of immediate support to the people of Vanuatu through funding to non-governmental organisations and the United Nations.
I am pleased that, at the next CHOGM, Prime Minister Muscat plans to focus on securing practical outcomes that address the issues that matter most to our members and that look at the challenges we share, rather than the points on which we disagree. We have worked closely with Malta to develop a set of institutional changes to make the Heads of Government meeting more effective. We will also elect a new secretary-general, the successor to His Excellency Kamalesh Sharma, whom I warmly congratulate on all he has achieved within the secretariat. We want to ensure that the best candidate is selected for the role, no matter where they are from. Whoever it may be, those at CHOGM will have an opportunity to give them a clear, focused mandate and a realistic set of priorities upon which to focus in the years ahead.
It was with some passion that my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) spoke about LGBT issues. Respect for the values set out in the Commonwealth charter, which was signed by Her Majesty the Queen two years ago this month, is regrettably not consistent across the Commonwealth. Despite the work we have done to promote the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender citizens of the Commonwealth, many, as we have heard, continue to suffer persecution. I actively raised our concerns at the last Heads of Government meeting, and was disappointed that we were one of only a few countries to do so. However, we will not cease from actively promoting the issue and raising it with our Commonwealth partners.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) spoke, as he often does, about religious belief and freedom from persecution. It is worth pointing out that the Commonwealth has members of every major world religion, including 800 million Hindus, 500 million Muslims and 400 million Christians. We believe that tolerance, respect and understanding are Commonwealth values that are set out in the charter.
When discussing religion and LGBT rights, it is perhaps worth reminding all of what the charter says clearly:
“We are implacably opposed to all forms of discrimination, whether rooted in gender, race, colour, creed, political belief or other grounds.”
We urge our Commonwealth partners to reread what they signed and to act, in due course, upon it.
We have concerns about political freedoms, too. The right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) raised the issue of the Maldives. I met a group of Maldivian parliamentarians only last week. If he has followed the FCO website and my tweets, he will know that I was the first Minister anywhere in the world to comment on the arrest of President Nasheed. We continue to monitor the situation extremely closely, just as we do the ongoing violence and disruption in Bangladesh.
We also have Sri Lanka, whose newly elected Government have re-embraced their place in the Commonwealth, for which we applaud them. They have committed to work with the United Nations to address the alleged human rights abuses of the past.
We cannot force a change in attitudes, and we understand that implementing the charter will take time—it is a marathon, not a sprint. However, we have made it clear repeatedly not only that member states have a moral obligation to uphold and promote what we agreed in 2012, but that it is in their national self-interest to do so. Human rights, democratic values, and safe and just societies are the building blocks of successful nations, and certainly Commonwealth nations. I do not, therefore, accept the widely held view that the Commonwealth should focus on human rights and democratic institutions or on trade, but not on both.
Hon. Members mentioned the movement of Commonwealth citizens and called for us to ease the ability of businesses and students to operate across the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth secretariat is looking particularly at the latter question, and we are working closely with member states on it. Despite the fact that the Commonwealth has a young, dynamic population of more than 2 billion people—they are spread across every inhabited continent, and the majority are united by a common language and common legal systems—there remains much that we can, and must, do to boost trade and investment between us. That is why the Prime Minister led a high-profile trade delegation to a number of Commonwealth countries, including India and Malaysia.
The shadow Minister mentioned the arrest of Anwar. I was in Malaysia last month, and I made very clear our concerns. We continue to monitor the situation extremely closely.
However, let me return to trade, which is the reason why we organised the Commonwealth Games business conference in July 2014. It is also why the work of my noble Friend Lord Marland’s Commonwealth Enterprise and Investment Council, and of the Commonwealth business forum at the Heads of Government meeting, is so important, and I warmly applaud the connection with the City of London, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden alluded. The close involvement of those bodies with businesses is generating innovative ideas to realise the Commonwealth’s vast yet largely untapped potential for trade, which the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) rightly mentioned. We must continue to make the most of such opportunities.
Let me restate that the Government remain deeply committed to the Commonwealth. However, in a world where taxpayers rightly expect to know why institutions exist and what they achieve, and where competing bodies and organisations cover every area of international activity, Commonwealth members share a duty to work together to ensure that this great organisation is ready and fit to tackle the challenges, and seize the opportunities, of the 21st century.
I thank my right hon. Friend for the opportunity to debate these issues. I also thank him for everything he has done for the CPA—for his continuing involvement in it and for his guidance, which I am sure his successor will come to rely on in the years ahead. This is possibly the last debate on this subject in this Parliament, so let me also thank all hon. and right hon. Members who have shown an interest in, and a passion for, the Commonwealth, which is in good shape to meet the demands of an ever-changing, complicated and, at times, extremely dangerous world.
Sir Alan Haselhurst
First, I thank colleagues for the kind remarks that have come in my direction. We are all committed to ensuring the continued strength of the Commonwealth.
I am pleased so much has been said about youth and human rights. Much more work has to be done to ensure that that 60% of the Commonwealth population—young people under 30—feel that there is a point to the Commonwealth and representative parliamentary democracy and that their voice can be heard.
We have to wear away at the differences on human rights. This, I think, is where we all believe that soft diplomacy can play its part. If one flings comments back and forth by e-mail or in the press, there is a danger that one simply causes positions to become entrenched. When one meets and talks to people— sometimes in the margin of conferences—one perhaps begins to establish a common understanding, which may, over time, lead to a softening of positions and to greater accord.
That requires people to use part of their parliamentary life to talk with others. One frightening thing about the world in the past was that people did not have the opportunity to travel or to meet others. I think of the dark days of the 1930s, when, had more people from this country travelled in Europe, there would have been greater enlightenment about what was happening, which might have averted catastrophe. Similarly, if more people had had the opportunity to travel to distant parts of the world, as they do today, they would have come away with a better understanding of how interdependent we all are and of how our general welfare can be advanced and the causes of conflict can be reduced.
We have a great role in the Commonwealth, which we must allow to be an exemplar of tolerance, understanding and respect for parliamentary democracy and human rights. The more we can air that view and be practical ambassadors, the better. I hope the media will not trivialise that or suggest that engaging in such things somehow means that we are neglecting our role. What finer role could there be than to enhance understanding across the world or to uphold the values of the Commonwealth? We should therefore stand tall. We should say that there are important missions we must undertake and that we do so with pride under the CPA banner—and even wearing the CPA tie, to which I boldly referred, and which can be obtained, I have no doubt, by applying to the chief executive of our branch in the near future.
Finally, I echo what the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) said: we owe a great deal to the staff of the UK branch. Officials throughout our Parliament help us with all this work, and they contribute freely to it. However, the core staff of the CPA UK branch have done an enormous amount of work, which is copied in many other parts of the Commonwealth. We know the amount of work they generate and the expertise they bring to it, and they earn compliments from all our visitors for the way they organise things. That is at the heart of our work in the UK branch, and we must try to ensure that best practice is spread throughout the Commonwealth so that the CPA can do its jobs more effectively in the future. We can then be increasingly proud as the Commonwealth advances in upholding the standards we believe are the right and proper way forward.
Kettering General Hospital
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
It is a huge pleasure and privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. May I, through you, thank Mr Speaker for giving me the honour of debating what is an important subject for my constituents?
I welcome the Minister to his place. He has taken a keen personal interest in the future of Kettering general hospital. The hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) and my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) are also here, and I hope they will make many interventions to stress the role they have played in working with me to secure the hospital’s future. Indeed, I am pleased to report that the three of us have been working closely together on a cross-party basis for the past few years, because we recognise that local people want party politics taken out of the future of our local hospital. It is a personal issue for the three of us, because we and our relatives use it, as do local people.
Kettering general hospital has been on its present site for 118 years. Local people have been born there and treated there, and they have died there. It is a much-loved district general hospital at the heart of the community of Kettering and north Northamptonshire. It is a key priority for local people that its future should be secure, so that it can continue to offer the best treatment to the increasing number of people living in the area. Kettering and north Northamptonshire are growing rapidly. Over the past decade the borough of Kettering had the sixth most rapid household growth out of 348 districts in the country, and that population increase is set to continue into the next decade.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks about our cross-party working, which our constituents throughout north Northamptonshire welcome. It has helped us in our approaches to the Minister and local health partners, and in bringing them together.
On the point about population, does the hon. Gentleman agree that we should emphasise the fact that as well as having, like most of the country, an ageing population, we also have one of the highest birth rates? Indeed, my constituency has the highest, but the birth rate is high throughout north Northamptonshire. There is demand at both ends of the population, as well as, of course, from people of working age.
Mr Hollobone
That is very pertinent. Demographic pressures are hitting us from every angle. There is a high birth rate in Corby and east Northamptonshire. Increasingly, in my constituency as well as the hon. Gentleman’s and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough, the population is ageing. Whereas 30 years ago an elderly patient might go to hospital with a particular condition, now it is even older people who are going there, with multiple conditions needing treatment at the same time. Kettering general hospital, like all hospitals, must raise its game when treating such vulnerable members of the community. It is not only population numbers, but the number of young and old patients that creates a challenge.
Although Kettering general hospital has difficulties and challenges, it is raising its game, and that is due largely to the tremendous dedication of the doctors, nurses, ancillary staff, management and clerical staff at the hospital, who are in a joint endeavour to deliver the best care they can. There is extremely good news to report. The Department of Health tells me that in 2012-13 there were 85,497 in-patient finished consultant episodes at the hospital, compared with 84,602 in 2011-12. There has been a focus on accident and emergency waiting time targets, and in the past few years Kettering general hospital has moved from being one of the worst in the country to one of the best. All hospitals in the country have been under pressure this winter, but it would be wrong to give the impression that fewer people are being treated at Kettering A and E. The reverse is true. In 2010-11 76,099 people presented themselves to A and E. In 2012-13 the number was 84,055. Record numbers of people are being treated there.
Andy Sawford
The hon. Gentleman will have been struck, as I was, at being told that the accident and emergency department was built for 20,000 patient visits a year, given that recent figure of 84,000. I endorse his remarks about change and progress in the past few years. To what does he attribute that? He mentioned the staff, and I agree. There has also been a change in the leadership of the hospital. However, perhaps it is also to do with the way the local health partners and organisations, including the clinical commissioning groups, have come together with the hospital more effectively through the work that we have been involved in with them, particularly with a view to improving A and E.
Mr Hollobone
The hon. Gentleman is right, of course. He gives a tantalising flavour of the climax of my speech, which will be about the urgent care hub proposal for Kettering general hospital, on which he, I and my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough have been working together.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Before he moves on to the climax, which we are all waiting to hear, may I mention, in addition to the work of the hospital and its staff, the contribution of support organisations? One of those is Crazy Hats, a local breast cancer charity run by Glennis Hooper, who is a remarkable lady. All three of us MPs took part in the charity walk on Sunday.
Mr Hollobone
Yes—not only have we three north Northamptonshire Members worked on a cross-party basis to secure the future of our local hospital, but we all dressed up in funny outfits on Sunday to walk around Wicksteed park in Kettering in support of Glennis Hooper and the marvellous work she does for Crazy Hats, which raises money for cancer treatment and care for our constituents. I suppose that it is part of an MP’s job on occasion to dress up in a funny costume and look silly for the benefit of constituents, and we are all pleased to do that.
Some further good news about Kettering general hospital, from Department of Health statistics, is that finished consultant episodes when any procedure took place in the hospital—which I think is bureaucracy-speak for the number of operations—went up from 49,638 in 2010 to 53,869 in 2013. I am told that there are 43 more hospital doctors and 55 more nurses than in 2010 and there is a 24% increase in diagnostic tests, a one third increase in the number of people treated for cancer and a 71% increase in the number of MRI scans performed. Of course just two years ago the £30 million foundation wing was opened. It has a 16-bed intensive care unit, a 28-bed cardiac unit and a 32-bed children’s unit. That was massive new investment in our local hospital.
It should not be forgotten—and we three Members of Parliament for the area do not forget—that increasingly Kettering general hospital offers our constituents world-class health care. The latest example of that is the cardiac investigations department, which has received national recognition for its high standards in heart ultrasound scanning. Every year 8,000 of our constituents are patients through that unit, which provides ultrasound scans of the heart. Those can reveal diseases such as heart failure and valve diseases.
Andy Sawford
That shows what huge progress has been made. A little over 10 years ago, my granddad had a heart attack and had to wait in a bed in Kettering general for six weeks to be transferred to Glenfield hospital in Leicester for a stent. Such operations can now be done as a day case at Kettering general.
Mr Hollobone
The hon. Gentleman is right. That is a good example of the way Kettering general hospital has raised its game to tackle local health needs. Increasingly, our constituents do not have to go to Glenfield, because they can get better care at their local hospital. In the case in question, that is because of the £300,000 investment in three state-of-the-art ultrasound scanners, which can show the heart in three dimensions. The 16-strong cardiac investigations team has been awarded accreditation by the British Society of Echocardiography, which is an affiliate of the British Cardiovascular Society. That accolade is not given lightly. Kettering hospital is one of only 38 in the country to have achieved that accreditation; some specialist centres, such as Glenfield, Papworth, John Radcliffe and Coventry, have not yet attained it.
The £4 million upgrade of the maternity department at Kettering general hospital started in December. An average of 10 babies per day are delivered at the hospital—including the babies of Members who are here today. It is part of an £18 million investment in the hospital.
In coming to the climax of my remarks, I want to talk about the innovative proposal for an urgent care hub at the hospital—my colleagues will appreciate this, because we have been working on it together. Over the past few months, the hospital has been liaising with partners and developing a strategic case for an urgent care hub on the hospital site to tackle long-term, urgent care pressure relating to population growth, about which we have spoken; age and acuity; and increasing public demand for prompt access to urgent care.
In December, the trust shared its strategic case with the foundation trust regulator, Monitor, which is currently considering the proposal. If Monitor approves the case, it will go on to an outline business case and finally a full business case for approval by Monitor, the Department of Health and the Treasury. The key to its success is that the hospital has been working in close collaboration with its health and social care partners. It is developing what is essentially a one-stop shop for our constituents who need urgent medical care.
The aim is to develop a £30 million urgent care hub on the hospital site that will combine secondary care, hospital A and E and urgent care assessment with primary care—in other words, GP services, minor injury care and social and community care services. The proposal has arisen because there has been significant growth in demand for that type of urgent care in the local health economy of our three constituencies, partly due to a 30% population growth over the past 19 years, with another 9% expected by 2020, and a rise in the population of older people, about which we have spoken. There has also been a massive 83% increase in the use of A and E over the past 20 years as a means of accessing urgent care.
Mr Bone
My hon. Friend is outlining an exciting new project. The scheme will include a minor injuries and accidents unit at the Isebrook hospital, which will relieve up to 40% of my constituents from having to go to Kettering. It is bang next to a 24-hour GP service, so that is exciting for my constituents, too.
Mr Hollobone
My hon. Friend has rightly made that issue a priority for his constituents, and he has led an effective campaign on it. That facility will be similar to the facility currently in operation in Corby. The idea is to treat people as locally as possible so they do not have to present themselves at Kettering’s A and E department. It is all part of making local health care delivery more efficient and effective, and my hon. Friend is right to highlight it.
Andy Sawford
Does the hon. Gentleman agree about one of the things we have made progress on—particularly through the cross-party campaign and the cross-working of the organisations involved? Although there are sometimes particular interests in individual towns and communities, we have looked at the bigger picture for the whole of our area. There are benefits for individual towns. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that I want to build on the success of the urgent care centre, but, in the end, when A and E—in particular, trauma services—is needed, it is going to be there relatively locally for everybody in north Northamptonshire.
Mr Hollobone
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Although we want to see far more local delivery of efficient NHS services in particular constituencies, all three of us accept that the vital part of the local health economy is the success of Kettering general hospital. If it were not there—if it were in Northampton, Milton Keynes, Bedford or Luton—local NHS delivery for our constituents would be far worse. We have to make Kettering general hospital a success. We can help it along its way with the innovative establishment of success stories such as the urgent care centre in Corby and the new facility at Isebrook, but the key to success for all our constituents is to make Kettering general hospital a success story for the future.
The hub concept developed by the trust and supported by all three of us is a partnership with the bodies that purchase NHS services, such as the clinical commissioning groups, the Northamptonshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust and the social care provider, Northamptonshire county council. If successful, the urgent care hub would effectively provide a one-stop shop for GP services and out-of-hours care; an on-site pharmacy; a minor injuries unit; facilities for social services and mental health care; access to community care services for the frail elderly; a replacement for the hospital’s A and E department, which is now 20 years old; and a new A and E services area, which will provide even better acute emergency care and integrated assessment to ensure that patients see the right specialists right away.
The three of us have been to see the Minister with the hospital and the CCGs, so the Minister knows that we are all as one in believing that the urgent care hub concept is the right one for the health economy in north Northamptonshire. It mirrors the way in which NHS England would like to see pioneering health care delivered in the future. As David Sissling, the chief executive of the hospital, said,
“This integrated approach is also something that NHS England has highlighted is an important principle in its Five Year Forward View for the NHS and it also fits with”
the collaborative programme happening in Northampton- shire.
I hope that when the Minister responds to this debate, in which all three MPs have sung from the same hymn sheet and said with one voice that we need the urgent care hub for the betterment of our constituents’ health, he will reiterate his support for the proposal. Whoever wins the election in our three constituencies and whoever forms the next Government, this important proposal must happen, for all our constituents.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) on securing this debate. I also commend him and our colleagues in the Chamber—my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford)—for their consensual and cross-party approach to tackling the challenges of the local health economy and addressing the needs of local patients. It is working together, as a group of MPs, that has helped to deliver success for the local hospital. That cross-party consensus is an example of what should be done. My hon. Friend the Member for Kettering is right that good health care is not political; it is about doing the right thing by patients, and that is the approach that hon. Members here today have taken in addressing local health concerns.
A number of the points raised today are ones we have talked about in meetings at the Department of Health. I have taken a keen interest in supporting Kettering in its future ambitions and in supporting my hon. Friend in his strong advocacy of the needs of local patients and his local hospital. As he rightly outlined, this is a part of the country with a growing population, due to increasing housing growth and the plans to increase housing growth in the future. As in all parts of the country, there is increased pressure on medical services from an ageing population with complex health care needs. By 2018, we will have 3 million patients with not one or two, but three long-term medical conditions—it could be diabetes, dementia, heart disease or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
Caring for patients with complex medical needs is a challenge for our whole country, and I know it has been one of the main drivers of increased admissions to A and E in Kettering. The acuity, which is the severity of the illness or medical admission, is a key issue that has been picked up by the A and E consultants and doctors with whom I have discussed the challenges faced locally by the trust. Supporting a better way of caring for people with long-term conditions and the frail elderly is at the heart of the proposals for the care hub that my hon. Friend outlined.
I want to take this opportunity to recognise the outstanding work done by NHS staff up and down the country. On this occasion, it is appropriate to draw attention to NHS staff working in and around Kettering—not only in the hospital, but in general practice, community mental health teams and palliative care teams. The commitment across the board in Kettering to delivering the highest-quality patient care is an example of what the NHS is all about, and it is right to recognise the dedication of front-line staff in the Kettering area.
I want to take the opportunity also to commend formally my hon. Friend for the outstanding interest that he has shown in standing up for the best interests of local patients throughout this Parliament and for his dedication in never missing an opportunity to raise questions in this Chamber and in the main Chamber during Health questions or to raise the case of his constituents in the Department of Health with me as the responsible Minister. It has been a pleasure to do all I can to support him, his constituents and Kettering hospital.
My hon. Friend is right to highlight the recent investment in the hospital. That is due in no small part to his advocacy and that of other hon. Members in consistently raising the needs of Kettering hospital and the local population. My hon. Friend will recall that when we met in January to discuss health services in his constituency and the plans that his local NHS has to deal with some of the pressures that it faces, we talked about some promising ideas. I will discuss those in more detail in a moment.
Before I do so, it would be appropriate to say a few words more generally about the pressures that the health service has faced during a difficult winter, how they have been handled and what we have done to support the health service both in Kettering and more generally. We know that parts of the NHS can and have come under pressure because of unprecedented demand, linked to the challenges of our ageing population. Compared with four years ago, every day the NHS sees 16,000 more hospital out-patients, performs 10,000 more diagnostic tests and carries out 3,500 more operations, and there are 2,000 extra ambulance journeys. Every year, 1.3 million more people visit accident and emergency departments.
Despite the extra demand, our NHS is performing well and treating the vast majority of people quickly. It is particularly important that it is dealing with the most unwell patients first. That is possible because we have taken, even in difficult economic times, the decisions that have allowed us to increase the NHS budget by £12.7 billion over this Parliament. Of course, that has allowed us to support Kettering hospital with local investment, which my hon. Friend outlined.
The NHS is also on track to deliver up to £20 billion in efficiency savings over this five-year period. That challenge was outlined by the former chief executive of the NHS, Sir David Nicholson, in 2009. Even to stand still and even with increased investment going into the NHS, it needed to make greater efficiencies. As a result of reforms and modernisation, we expect to save £4.9 billion over this Parliament and £1.5 billion a year from 2014 onwards. All of that will go directly back into front-line care in Kettering and elsewhere.
Andy Sawford
I thank the Minister for generously giving way, especially as the debate was secured by the hon. Member for Kettering. The Minister makes a point about efficiencies, but will he comment on the issue of geography, which we have not really touched on? We have talked about demand, but this is a critical issue for north Northamptonshire. The geography of our area is such that for people to have to rely on a hospital other than Kettering would mean considerable travel time. As someone who represents a rural area, I can say that that is an efficiency that we would not want to make. We would prefer to say, “Look, we want our local hospital. We recognise that there are challenges in sustaining a local hospital, but the geography of our area is such that we want to keep hold of it.”
Dr Poulter
The hon. Gentleman makes a very important and valid point. As well as improving the way our NHS buys goods and services—improving procurement practice, an issue that we discussed with members of the local health care team from Kettering when they visited me in the Department of Health—improving estate management and taking other measures of obvious efficiency, there is a need, outlined clearly in NHS England’s “Five Year Forward View”, to radically transform the way we deliver care. My hon. Friend the Member for Kettering made that point. It is now a priority to care better for frail elderly people through better integrating health services. I am talking about using the hospital potentially as a hub for vertical integration of services, particularly in more rural areas. That will mean that other health services—community health services, general practice and mental health services—can be supported and integrated with the hospital service as a hub-and-spoke model of care.
Crucial to that as well is integrating what the social care service does at the same time and having an approach that joins up what health and social care have to offer. Taking advantage of the better care fund that has been set up at local level, so that the local authority can work more collaboratively with the NHS, is very important. It is often very difficult to define where social care ends and health care begins, because staff are dealing with the same person, with the same care needs, but traditionally a silo approach has been taken to the delivery of care. We need to break down institutional silos and deliver more personalised care. That is at the heart of integrating care—at the heart of the hub-and-spoke model built around Kettering hospital. It draws on the importance of joining up what the local authority does with what the NHS does. That is particularly important in more rural areas, such as the one that the hon. Member for Corby represents.
As I said, I have followed developments in Kettering with keen interest. It is worth saying that since October 2012, when Monitor found the trust to be in breach of its licence in relation to consistently poor A and E performance, considerable progress has been made. That is in no small part down to the work of the local NHS and the local health care teams. To date, in 2014-15—I am now bringing the House up to date—the Department has provided £7.4 million of revenue support and £5 million of emergency capital to the trust. Over the winter, the trust fully activated its winter plans, building on initiatives that proved successful in previous years.
That work included an enhanced weekend discharge team, detailed plans allowing escalation when there was a busy period, and appropriate use of short-stay facilities, including an observation unit and ambulatory care unit. Those short term measures are designed to ensure that services continue in times of pressure, but the intention, quite rightly—building on the point about better integrating health and social care and what happens in the community with what happens at the hospital—is to move to a position whereby there is the ability to cope with pressure all year round and not just during the winter. The urgent care hub has that integrated delivery model at its heart.
The hub, as my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering outlined, would incorporate existing A and E services and facilities, but also include, for example, GP services and out-of-hours care, an on-site pharmacy, a minor injuries unit, facilities for social services, facilities for mental health care—that is particularly important and sometimes overlooked, but not in this case—and access to community care services for the frail elderly. Those services would facilitate rapid assessment, diagnosis and treatment by appropriate health and social care professionals. Patients would be streamed into appropriate treatment areas to minimise delays and reduce the need for admissions.
The hub’s location is, I am told, still being finalised, but options include clearing and redeveloping existing areas of the hospital or developing a new build on the site. The local NHS envisages that a capital investment of approximately £30 million, as my hon. Friend outlined, will be required. However, that figure will be subject to further detailed assessment as part of the business planning process.
The principle of the hub is absolutely the right way forward for the local NHS. It is the type of integrated care model that we need elsewhere in the country, particularly where the NHS is servicing a broad population. In this case, it is servicing not just Kettering, but a partially rural county and rural area. This is a model that I am sure hon. Members will continue to support and that I will continue to have a keen interest in supporting. I hope the plans will be successful at making the improvements that patients in my hon. Friend’s constituency and the area surrounding Kettering want. There are encouraging signs. The improvements envisaged are significant and would ensure that the local area had a resilient and high-quality health care system to deliver the highest-quality patient care. I again thank my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering for securing the debate.
Vaccine Damage Payments Act
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
A few colleagues are here this afternoon, Mr Caton, but our all-party parliamentary group for vaccine damaged people has more than 120 members, so I suspect that some of them will be dropping in and out as the afternoon progresses.
I am delighted to have secured today’s debate and I am pleased that we have been joined by the families of vaccine-damaged people, some of whom have seen their children grow from having been vaccine-damaged in infancy to men and women who are now in their 40s and 50s. However, when I say I am delighted to have secured the debate, after attempting to do so regularly since early January, the fact is that the all-party group, of which I am the chairman, really wanted at some point to meet the Minister, so that she could hear what the families go through on a daily basis with their—it is a bit difficult to say “children”, because, as I said, some of those children are now in their 40s and 50s. However, I want to share some of those experiences and difficulties, and I know that colleagues in the Chamber today will want to do likewise.
The all-party group supports families in their view that the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979 is now out-of-date and should be reformed. Let me be absolutely clear: from the very first meeting that I attended in the ’90s of the then all-party parliamentary group for vaccine-damaged children, the families have been resolute in their support for the Government’s vaccination programme, and they firmly believe in the concept of herd immunisation.
The Pearson commission was a major inquiry into civil damages in the 1970s. It recommended that the Government should accept liability to pay full compensation for vaccine injury on the basis that vaccine injury is the very occasional price that society pays for the benefit of defeating disease through national vaccination programmes.
At that time, vaccines were not such a major part of the public health programme as they are today. During the intervening years, vaccines have greatly grown in importance and use. It was always intended to be a temporary measure—a £10,000 payment on account pending the outcome of the Loveday case. Now the award is £120,000, but that is not adequate compensation for someone who is seriously and profoundly disabled.
It is not adequate to say that consumers should sue as an alternative. No civil claim has ever succeeded for vaccine injury in this jurisdiction. That is not because people in the UK are different from elsewhere in the world; it reflects the fact that our legal system is not claimant-friendly. The situation has got much worse since legal aid has been abolished. It is now impossible to take on a multinational pharmaceutical corporation, as the costs of a claim are so high that no one could possibly afford it. Court fees have just been increased by some 600%, so it costs £10,000 just to issue a claim, which has not helped the situation.
It is in the interests of society that the rate of uptake of vaccines is kept high to achieve that herd immunity. That needs an effective safety net, so that consumers are assured that in the event of a serious disablement, they will be looked after. The system needs to be reformed to be more consumer-friendly, so that on close calls on causation, consumers or patients are given the benefit of any doubt, as we see in the USA. In the last four years, no awards of any compensation have been made for vaccine injury, despite hundreds of applications. The system is not working.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
I use this opportunity to apologise to you, Mr Caton, and to my hon. Friend, because I have to leave soon to be at Downing street at 3 o’clock to present a petition with people with learning disabilities about things, such as Winterbourne View home, that ought not to be happening. I apologise that I have to leave, but I congratulate my hon. Friend on his wonderful work, and the all-party group. Above all, I congratulate the vaccine victim support group and the indomitable Olivia Price on the fantastic fight that they have conducted over many years. I hope that they get the success and the response that my hon. Friend and this debate invites.
Mr Brown
I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. Those of us who know him realise that he is a champion for those less fortunate in society, and especially for the disabled. I recognise that he has a family member who was vaccine damaged as a child.
Why is the coverage of the scheme so patchy here in the UK? Adults are almost all excluded—why should that be? All seasonal flu vaccines and all hepatitis vaccines are excluded—why? That is not an effective safety net.
Recently, more than 70 people suffered narcolepsy as a result of the swine flu vaccine. That is a very serious condition, but the Department for Work and Pensions has refused to accept that it amounts to a 60% disability and has appealed against a tribunal finding that it is a severe disability. The Department should fight consumers less and support them more.
Awards of compensation for vaccine injury should be available—that is compensation measured by the amount of loss actually suffered, not an arbitrary amount. Reform could be a win-win, in that we could promote social justice and ensure an increase in the rate of vaccination that will benefit society as a whole.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
I also congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and give my apologies because I, too, will have to leave before the end of the debate. Does he agree that some of the reluctance to reform the current procedures and the Act is similar to some of the reluctance that was there when we tried to uprate it in the first place? These things are complex and there are all sorts of aspects to them, but the first thing to do, surely, is sit down, work through where the problems are and work out what needs to be done. From my point of view, the important thing is that the Minister should meet the families to look at what is going on in practice and what can be done about it.
Mr Brown
My hon. Friend is exactly right. Today, we are looking at—it is in the debate’s long title—reform of this legislation. As will become clear as I progress through my contribution, we really need to reach a decision on whether this is about reform or about ripping it up, throwing it in the bin and starting again, because we have moved on significantly since 1979.
As I was saying, reform could be a win-win, in that we could promote social justice and ensure an increase in the rate of vaccination that would benefit society. I believe that vaccine manufacturers are strongly in favour of such a change and are willing to contribute to a fund—and, I hope, to discussions.
It is unconscionable to relegate so many people who are disabled to a battle over causation, and for justice, and it undermines rates of uptake of vaccines not to have an effective system. The numbers of those seriously injured are low, so the total cost of full compensation would be affordable and would be self-financed through the increase in vaccination and the reduction in the burden of disease in society.
Towards the end of last year, I met two parents down here in London. They related to me the stories of their daughters, who had both had a reaction to the human papilloma virus vaccine. We dedicated the last meeting of the all-party group, on 14 January, to hearing from some young women who were able to attend, but mainly from the parents of several young women who had had a severe reaction to the HPV vaccine. I think that it is safe to say that the majority of those cases centred on those young women now finding themselves profoundly affected by what can only be described as symptoms similar to those of ME—myalgic encephalomyelitis—or chronic fatigue syndrome. All those girls had been fit and healthy, were doing well academically and had the social life that we would expect any teenager to have.
Sir Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab)
To emphasise just how serious the consequences are, I point out that Steve Hinks’s daughter, to whom my hon. Friend may be referring, is often asleep for 23 hours a day. That is how serious the consequences are.
Mr Brown
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. He is exactly right. It was absolutely astounding to hear the heartbreaking stories at our last meeting and to think that a young woman who had been fit and healthy now suddenly finds herself asleep for most of the day and has to be awakened on an ongoing basis to be fed. That is no quality of life at all. Something is seriously wrong. The worlds of these young women have been turned upside down. For some of them, to spend a few hours at school in a week is a major challenge. That issue could probably merit an Adjournment debate on its own. I am aware that the hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) held a short debate on the topic back in May 2009. It is worth pointing out that there are serious concerns about the manner in which an individual’s allergic reaction to a vaccine is recorded—it might be better put as “not recorded” in many cases. Where there is an allergic reaction, it is only right that it is properly recorded, so that we can not only determine what is happening to the individual but get a broader perspective.
In October 2011, a proposal paper was produced by the vaccine victim support group—an unincorporated association with more than 300 members—and the all-party group for vaccine damaged people. They came together and were looking for reform of the Vaccine Damage Payments Act, which established in the UK a statutory no-fault system of a single lump sum payment from public funds for cases of proven serious permanent disablement resulting from vaccination. Most developed countries have established such systems. The scheme in this country is administered by the Department for Work and Pensions, with appeals being resolved within Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service. We are now 36 years on, and the system has continued, with relatively minor changes only.
The vaccine victim support group and the all-party group contend that reform of the system is highly desirable to deal with anomalies that now exist in the system, to reflect the changing landscape of today, to reassure the public about the safety and efficacy of vaccination, to reduce litigation and to promote and extend the uptake of vaccination to promote health and the elimination of disease. Both groups support the UK national vaccination programme and recognise that the benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks. Vaccines have significantly contributed to the elimination of disease, the increase in life expectancy and the improvement in public health.
Reform of the UK system of statutory vaccine injury compensation has the prospect of achieving important tangible benefits for the UK that mean that it would be irresponsible not to explore and effect reform through consultation with all relevant stakeholders, which include the pharmaceutical industry, the Department of Health immunisation team, the DWP and, via support groups, affected individuals.
The Act was brought into being by Parliament to put on a statutory footing a system of ex gratia awards of compensation for vaccine injury that had developed during the 1970s, largely as a result of whole-cell whooping cough and smallpox vaccine injury. The Department of Health had made a number of ex gratia awards to individuals who had suffered serious permanent disability as a result of catastrophic brain injury that they had suffered as infants shortly after DPT—diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus—vaccination.
The Government had commissioned Professor David Miller to conduct the national childhood encephalopathy study—NCES—a large-scale epidemiological study of incidents of brain injury and onset of seizure disorders following DPT vaccination. The study, published in May 1981, found a significant association between DPT vaccination and severe neurological injury and death.
The statutory scheme initially required an 80% and permanent level of disability to have been suffered, but later that threshold was reduced to 60%. Awards were initially £10,000. That was increased, in various changes, to £20,000, then £30,000 and then £40,000. The level of payment was largely based on the understanding that that was interim compensation pending the outcome of the litigation against the Wellcome Foundation.
In 1986, the United States enacted the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act. That established a system of compensation in the US court of federal claims. Until four years ago, that had awarded compensatory damages in 2,806 cases, of which 1,266 involved the DPT vaccine, use of which ceased in 1996. That involved an outlay at that time of $2.2 billion. The fund to administer the scheme is established from a small tax on each dose of vaccine. That has proved relatively successful in the United States, and our all-party group has wondered for a long time why we do not in the UK, for every vaccine that is given, put into a fund a couple of pence. That is all it would take to deal with this issue. However, that has been rejected not only by this Government, but by the Labour Government in the 13 years for which they were in office. I think that we need to reconsider where we are.
In 1988, the court in Loveday v. Renton and the Wellcome Foundation dismissed the claimants’ claims. The judge found that the claimants had failed to establish causation to the required standard of proof. That was based on his findings of flaws in the data analysis of the NCES. Professor Miller and his NCES team subsequently published a follow-up study, in November 1993, which addressed the judge’s criticisms of the original study. The conclusions of the follow-up study were essentially the same as those originally: on rare occasions, the vaccine can cause severe neurological injury. Then in 2000 the Government decided that the initial awards should be “topped up” to the real-terms equivalent of £100,000.
It had been suggested that anyone deemed to be vaccine damaged was carrying the SCN1A gene. That has been disproved by testing victims: they have all proved negative.
In 2010, the Legal Services Commission agreed in principle to fund a further review of the prospects of success of the surviving DPT claimants. Further litigation is therefore pending in that respect against the manufacturers and/or the Department of Health. The award now made for a successful application for vaccine damage payment is a single lump sum of £120,000. However, the majority of applicants—approximately 750 —have received only £78,000, because they received an initial payment of some £10,000. The payment is invariably made into a personal injury special needs trust, so that it is excluded, by statutory provision, from any assessment for means-tested benefits. That is done to ensure that it is received in addition to means-tested benefits such as incapacity benefit and disability living allowance, including components for care and mobility.
According to information supplied by the vaccine damage payments unit in 2011, a total of 931 awards had been made under the 1979 Act, of which 570 were related to the DPT vaccine. There were 89 applications to the unit in 2010 and 71 in 2011. One award was made in 2010, and no awards were made in 2011. So far, 3,983 applications have been rejected on medical grounds and 814 have been rejected for non-medical reasons—because the application was made either out of time or out of the scope of the scheme. The operation of the system has settled down, and after a flurry of historic awards in the early years, very few awards are now being made. The unit at one point consisted of two part-time members of staff. An appeal against the decision to refuse an award is made to the social security lower-tier tribunal, which is part of Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service.
The fact that surprisingly few awards are being made probably reflects the withdrawal of the DPT wholesale vaccine, the improvement in vaccine technology and the increased levels of safety and efficacy of vaccination. During the past few years, more vaccines, such as HPV and meningitis C, have been added to the national programme. It is likely that further vaccines—for example, varicella, H1N1, swine flu and hepatitis A and B—will be added in coming years. Many new types of vaccines are likely to become available in future years, because they are being developed to combat many sources of disease, such as malaria, candida, chlamydia, E. coli, genital herpes, hepatitis E, strep, rheumatoid arthritis, various cancers and numerous others.
There have been episodes of public concern about adverse reaction to vaccinations such as DPT in the 1970s, MMR in the late 1990s and early 2000s and, more recently, the HPV vaccine. Those episodes of concern have led to litigation, media sensationalism and public anxiety, and they have significantly reduced uptake of the vaccination, which has reduced the level of herd immunity on occasions and increased the incidence of outbreak of pandemic disease among unvaccinated populations. Those episodes of public concern caused anxiety and confusion to the public and resulted in considerable legal defence costs for pharmaceutical corporations and considerable cost to the UK legal aid purse. Litigation resolved few of the disputes, because hardly any cases reached trial. The public health programme was damaged by falling levels of vaccine uptake, and diseases in some cases were resurgent.
In 2003, uptake of the MMR vaccine fell to only 82%, largely as a result of Wakefield’s discredited autism theory. Even by the end of the MMR litigation, uptake had not fully recovered. In contrast, the United States achieves 98% vaccination uptake, possibly because all claims have to be brought in the federal courts under the vaccine programme rather than against a manufacturer. That shows that a proper safety net can boost the numbers of people who take part in a herd immunisation programme. Other countries have avoided the problem by enabling disputes over vaccine injury to be efficiently and proportionately resolved within a statutory compensation scheme, where individual cases can be thoroughly investigated and adjudicated. The lack of a fully comprehensive system for determining vaccine injury applications in the UK has contributed to the problems we face, so all stakeholders have an interest in reform.
The UK’s vaccine injury compensation scheme, as established in the 1979 Act, contains a number of serious anomalies. Not all vaccines are covered. Vaccines for swine flu, smallpox, hepatitis A and B, and yellow fever are not covered. A separate scheme for smallpox vaccine compensation had to be set up by the Department of Health for workers to encourage front-line health workers to participate in vaccination. The vaccine programme is no longer just for children, as it was initially. Many people in their professional careers need to be vaccinated, otherwise they cannot work.
The influenza vaccine is not covered. The safety net has holes in it, and the vaccine victim support group and the all-party group submit that the gaps should be addressed. We believe that everyone who is resident in the UK and is vaccinated should be able to have recourse to the compensation scheme in the event of a serious adverse effect. The current scheme is aimed mainly at compensating children, although adults are also, on rare occasions, covered. The coverage is therefore patchy and not comprehensive. Given the very small numbers involved, the scheme could easily cover children and all adults.
Children who die before the age of two are not covered. That exception is difficult to justify, because losing a child at 18 months is as tragic and devastating as losing a child six months later, at the age of two. That exception should be abolished. The 60% injury threshold is a real issue. An arbitrary distinction is made in the scheme for injuries that are still significant, but that amount to 59% or lower. The refusal of any compensation for someone with a 59% permanent disability cannot objectively be justified, bearing in mind the very small number of awards that are made. To qualify for criminal injury compensation, the minimum threshold value of injury is £1,000, and a similar level should apply in vaccine injury cases.
The current compensation award of £120,000, rather than compensatory damages, creates anomalies. A child with catastrophic injury resulting from clinical negligence in the administration of a vaccine—in other words, in breach of contra-indication—may receive £3 million. A child with a similar injury resulting from an adverse reaction to a vaccine would receive only one twenty-fifth of that compensation. That means that the burden of caring for the disabled person falls largely on their families. The current vaccine injury award amounts to the cost of care for a seriously disabled person for less than one year. That cannot properly be described as compensation; it is only a token.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
I welcome the attention that the hon. Gentleman has brought to this matter, as he has on previous occasions. The root of the problem is the distinction between compensation for negligence, which rightly exists to ensure that a negligent organisation pays a penalty, and the provision of the help that people who have suffered vaccine damage ought to get, even if there is no possibility of proving negligence. The hon. Gentleman has identified that that is a no-fault system. We really need to have such a system, which meets the genuine need of those who have faced such consequences without their having to prove negligence.
Mr Brown
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention. The point is the balance of probability, as I indicated earlier in relation to the United States. I know that we do not always like to compare our health service with that in the United States, but theirs is definitely based on the balance of probability. We need to be much more realistic and consider what that could mean for us in relation to vaccination and a vaccination programme. The level of award cannot be justified. Instead, the system should provide common-law damages. The numbers of awards made are such that that would place little burden on the public purse. Similarly, the scheme should also meet reasonable legal costs, so that clients do not have to enter damages-based contingency agreements to fund appeals.
There should be provision in the scheme for some flexibility on the date by which an application has to be made. The current scheme allows no extension of the time limit, even when the applicant does not have knowledge of the scheme or that they have a claim. Earlier today, the families made it abundantly clear to me that if a child suddenly becomes vaccine-damaged, the trauma that runs through the household and the family is such that they probably cannot think straight about what the future holds. It is about recognising the extremely difficult and traumatic time that families are going through. There should not be time bars that mean people get the response, “I’m very sorry, but you’re out of time for any kind of claim.” That just is not the way we should be operating in the 21st century.
The current scheme does not contain any table of injury where causation may, in certain circumstances, be presumed. The absence of such a table leaves open to doubt—and litigation—the question of causation, which makes the system more difficult to administer. The table under the US scheme recognises, for example, that if someone has a severe allergic reaction within four hours of receiving the tetanus vaccine, it is presumed that the tetanus vaccine caused the injury if no other cause is found. That goes back to the point raised by the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) and my response—that the absolute probability is that the tetanus vaccine was the cause. The table in the US is periodically revised after independent expert review, such as the reports published by the Institute of Medicine on the causality of injury by vaccines in 1991, 1994 and 2011.
The UK system of vaccine injury compensation has now existed for 36 years. It was created as an interim solution, but it has become a permanent one. There are many anomalies in coverage, and it does not fulfil the safety net function that would promote confidence in the uptake of vaccines. Fortunately, cases of serious permanent disablement and death caused by vaccines are extremely rare. The cost of extending the scheme to give comprehensive coverage and provide compensatory damages would be extremely low. If one award of medium severity is made in an average year, for example, the cost might be in the order of, say, £500,000. There would be some initial additional expenditure in paying a further top-up, in line with the level of compensatory damages, for the 931 cases that received a £100,000 top-up payment in 2000. However, that would mean no further ongoing litigation in respect of historical cases. The current award of £100,000 is difficult to justify in cases involving catastrophic injury and a lifetime of care and loss of earnings.
Vaccines have become safer, but the number of vaccines has grown and is likely to continue growing. The vast majority of adverse effects are mild and/or temporary, and only on extremely rare occasions are they serious and permanent. However, it is likely that there will always be a small number of casualties, and a no-fault safety net of compensatory damages will relieve the unfair burden of care and support from victims’ families and redistribute the cost across society. Crucially, it would avoid the need for litigation, promote confidence in the national vaccination programme and increase vaccine uptake, thereby reducing the incidence and cost of disease.
I hope the Minister will consider the points that she hears today. The timing of this debate might be wrong, but I have attempted to raise the profile of this issue over the past 12 months. In the dying days of this Parliament, perhaps the timing could not be better because, with both the Minister and my hon. Friend the shadow Minister in attendance, the next Government might want to consider this issue more closely. The electorate deserve a better deal than they have had previously.
There should have been significant publicity for this debate, and the families tried to encourage such publicity. They came close to getting support from the BBC, but the plug was apparently pulled at the last minute. The families are becoming increasingly suspicious that people do not want to discuss this issue, but it is an issue from which we cannot run away. The families lead their lives as best they can under extremely difficult circumstances. There is no escape for them. On a daily basis, life can be troublesome to say the least, and I suspect that life can often be very trying indeed. They have fought for decades, and they deserve some kind of light at the end of the tunnel, if that is possible. I gave an indication of this earlier, but is it reform of the legislation that we need or is it now time, 36 years after the original legislation was introduced, that we as parliamentarians sat down with the families and the pharmaceutical companies and asked, “Is there a better way of doing this?”? I honestly believe that we require not reform but a whole new concept of where we are going.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) and I attended a meeting a few years ago when our good former colleague Ian Stewart was chair of the all-party group. We asked for a meeting with the pharmaceutical companies, which brought their legal teams with them. Those who know my right hon. Friend will recognise him as a placid and tolerant individual, but he walked out of that meeting, which he had not previously done in his entire political career. He was so disgusted with what the legal representatives of the pharmaceutical companies were saying that they tried his patience and he immediately left the room. He and, I hope, everyone in this room recognises the challenge that the families are going through. There is a better way of doing it, and I hope that today’s debate can be a starting point for us all.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) on securing this debate and on the moving way in which he opened it.
I am here to speak briefly on behalf of constituents. Their daughter was born healthy in 1972, but they noticed a sudden change after she received the whooping cough vaccination. Unfortunately, their daughter had suffered brain damage. They tell me that she was examined by several doctors, including doctors at Alder Hey hospital in Liverpool. They have lived with the damage done by the vaccine ever since. They have looked after their daughter for 42 years at considerable cost, both physically and mentally, and they are members of the vaccine victim support group, which is fighting for compensation for all those who have suffered severe adverse reactions after being vaccinated under the Government vaccination programme.
My constituents tell me that, as they are now ageing, they are desperately anxious to provide for the future of their daughter. It must certainly be true that parents now in their 60s and 70s with children in their 40s and 50s will feel the same way. My constituents have sacrificed everything over the past 42 years to ensure that their daughter is loved and cared for by her family, rather than by the state. To date, the family have received only what were purely initial and top-up vaccine damage payments—certainly not compensatory payments—to cover four decades of care. As my hon. Friend said, even the £120,000 top rate of payment under the current scheme would really only pay for one year of care, and my constituents have not even received payments at that level.
My constituents feel that all responsible Governments should have a vaccination programme, but they feel that Governments then have a moral responsibility to care for those whose lives are damaged by vaccination. They referred me to the paper, “Reform of the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979”, that was presented to Ministers in October 2011. They point to the recommendation in that paper that any vaccine recommended by Government should be covered by the Act. My hon. Friend detailed a number of vaccinations that were left out of the Act, and they should not be. More modern vaccines, such as the HPV vaccine that was referred to, should be included. Importantly, to avoid expensive litigation, the scheme should cover proper compensatory levels.
We can only imagine the pain endured by my constituents’ having a daughter, the first child of four children, suffering after vaccine damage. My constituents are now in their 60s and very worried about the future of their daughter. They are finding it more and more difficult to give her the time and care that she needs 24 hours a day. Their son tells me that seeing his parents struggle with a 42-year-old daughter, severely disabled as a result of vaccine damage, but not having received adequate compensation, is a total injustice.
My constituents tell me, and I imagine we would all agree, that my hon. Friend has fought tirelessly for their cause, and I thank him for that work. It was only recently that I got to know of the case of my constituents and their daughter through the work of the all-party group, which they recommended I join, and I was happy to do so. I have spoken only briefly, but what I have said on their behalf speaks for the reason why the victims of vaccine damage should get proper compensation and not rely on expensive litigation, which, as my hon. Friend has said, is not feasible.
Four decades of care is a great deal to give—avoiding the care having to fall on the state—but the family members, the unpaid carers of victims of vaccine damage, should be supported. All carers should be properly supported with compensatory payments, and I hope that this debate today has raised the issue so that it will go forward into a future Parliament and that real action will be taken.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) for setting the scene. He spoke passionately and told us why we need to do better. He said, “Is there a better way to do this?” and I wrote down, “I think there is.” This debate will perhaps give us a chance to have an idea of how we can do better. He and the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) illustrated where the system falls down and how we can improve it. I would like to do something along those lines as well.
It is of utmost importance for us to reflect upon this issue once more, as the quality of innocent individuals’ lives are at stake. We vaccinate to prevent illness, to protect the most vulnerable in our societies and to protect those we care about, whether they are our family, children or constituents. It is very unfortunate when good intentions do not result in their intended outcome, which is to protect and not harm. Unfortunately, harm is what can occur. The contributions so far have shown that harm has taken place. We need to learn how best to deal with that and how Government could respond in a more generous manner.
Although such tragedies are thankfully rare, it is a reality for the few who are affected and we must take responsibility for dealing with the outcomes of vaccination damage. We must take account of individuals who have become severely disabled when they may otherwise have led a healthy life without the burdens of their condition, because of a vaccination that was believed to be medically safe. We must think of their well-being. We must also take account of those who, through their work, found it necessary to have vaccinations, resulting in effects that they had not foreseen.
It is a difficult thought to come to terms with. Affected individuals could not have imagined that these vaccinations would lead to their living with debilitating conditions. We must do our best to aid those families and individuals to deal with the burden as best they can in the circumstances and with the everyday realities that they have to face. We must investigate why, out of 1,483 claims made between 1 January 2000 and 31 December 2010 to the vaccine damage payments unit, only 26 have resulted in an award. Why is that? Something must be wrong with the system. Either it is too complex, or the delays are too long, or the questions that are asked are difficult to answer. The system needs to be looked at.
We need to reform the Vaccine Damage Payments Act. It is too outdated to deal with the financial and practical realities of living with the adverse effects of a vaccination, and too outdated to recognise that there is a spectrum of difficulties that those affected face, not only those above the 60% threshold. That is also an issue. The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway talked about the 60% threshold, which almost debars people. I always feel that we as parliamentarians are here to help those who need help. We must do it in a good way and make it simple and easy for them to find help. Today’s debate gives us a chance to try to chart a way forward that is easier for individuals to deal with.
The Vaccine Damage Payments Act provides an opportunity to apply for a one-off £120,000 lump sum to meet the burdens of coping with a disability. Whether this is to assist the person who has become disabled as a result of a vaccination, or the family who cares for the person, there are costs to be met. These are costs that individuals and their families would not have foreseen, caused by the adverse reaction to a vaccination that requires them to be met. To be eligible for such a scheme, the individual must be over two years old and must apply within six years of vaccination, or up until their 21st birthday, whichever is the later. This means that if the adverse reaction results in death, but the victim is less than two years old, nothing can be awarded to the parents. That discrepancy must be addressed. Furthermore, it leaves carers to pay independently for the care that is needed until the claimant is eligible at the age of two. The rules simply do not deal with the emotional realities of such situations.
We cannot always mark a family’s problems solely on physical issues. There is the emotional trauma that the family and their relations go through as well. What is even more striking is that not all those affected by vaccination damage are recognised in the current legislation as requiring financial assistance. The requirement that a person has to be 60% disabled to be eligible for a single amount of £120,000 is a very hard and fast rule, and cuts out others who are vulnerable and need compensation to deal with the difficulties that disability brings. To be 60% disabled, or above, has a profound impact on a person’s life, reinforcing that we must change how we deal with payments to those affected. It seems too absolute to have a 60% cut-off when we come to a situation in which a victim may fall below this figure, yet be affected in their life. They can be greatly affected, but, because of the eligibility criteria, not entitled to any assistance.
A range of degrees of disablement can affect an individual’s life and irreparably alter it. For that reason, reform needs to look at assisting all those who have been affected in different ways through vaccination damage, and as a result deviate from the standard fixed sum given on a sliding scale. I hope that the Minister’s response will give an idea of how those suffering as a result of the vaccine can be given better financial assistance.
As has been pointed out on a number of occasions, including in the work of the all-party group, the provisions to deal with adult cases are poor. It would be appropriate for the 1979 Act to be applied more comprehensively to adult cases. The requirement that vaccination must occur before a victim’s 18th birthday, apart from in the exceptions outlined in the Act, means that the scheme’s adult application is far from lucid. There are workers whose jobs mean they must be vaccinated to deal with the dangers of their workplace. Hepatitis B is one such vaccination, but it is not included in the Act. Is it proposed that it should be included? It is important to consider that question.
The workers most affected are doctors, nurses and social workers, but members of other similar professions that revolve around a duty of care are in a similar situation. Those people, in aspiring to fulfil the requirements of their job, have availed themselves of vaccines and that has resulted in their being left without livelihood or career, and with a quality of life that is not as it was before.
The question of access to life-saving or life-changing drugs has also been on my mind, and other hon. Members have touched on it. There was an example in the debate pack of a family who had to leave England for the States to qualify for drugs, which they got free there. I presume that that was because they would also be part of a testing scheme. The drugs greatly improved the child’s life. They moved to California to qualify for drugs that they could not get here, because they cost too much. The Minister and I have previously talked about drugs for cancer sufferers, and so on. I suppose more is possible with a large budget, but I think that something must be done about improving the availability of drugs.
The legislation often makes adult payouts subject to the industrial injuries schemes, with the result that the compensation often cannot come close to what is required to meet the financial challenges of the affected person. We must remember that it is not financial considerations that are at stake, but rather recompense for loss of a career and personal independence, and a reduction in quality of life. I am inclined to argue that those victims should be equally able to obtain the £120,000 payout through the Government’s vaccine damage payment scheme. There is a clear need for hepatitis B to be covered by the legislation.
Although I have spoken of the £120,000 figure and argued for it to be extended to a wider range of cases, that is not to say that the sum is adequate; it is almost speculative in relation to the life expectancy of individuals eligible to meet the requirements of the scheme. That is wrong. We should be doing all we can to extend and make easier the lives of those affected, by giving higher levels of financial support. The fact is that the costs of caring for someone with a disability are high, and in the case of a child the sum offered will not span a lifetime’s care, so families can be left to struggle when money becomes stretched and the pressure is on. Adult cases also involve personal livelihood if the disability becomes debilitating. Inadequate and unrealistic payouts or failure to be compensated at all can make financial considerations an added concern in an already stressful and emotive situation.
Is there a better way? I suggest there is, and I urge the Minister to review the matter.
Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con)
I apologise for not being here for the start of the debate; I meant no disrespect to the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown), who has been a tireless campaigner on the issue. I will take only a brief amount of the House’s time, partly because I must again be rude and leave the debate before the end—it is that stage of the parliamentary process.
I want to express my gratitude and that of my constituent. The hon. Gentleman spent two hours going in great detail through the difficulties suffered by her daughter, a 24-year-old girl, as a result of the HPV vaccine Cervarix. The anti-NMDA receptor antibody effect on her is massive. My constituent’s daughter will require financial support for life—disability benefits and a range of other support to get her through her difficulties. Those difficulties result from a reaction to a vaccine that has been an enormous success in this country in protecting young women from a viral condition, but which, in certain circumstances, has the effect I have mentioned. There is more evidence not just in this country but abroad, and there is emerging research.
I hope that the Minister will recognise the circumstances, and recognise also that more needs to be done, including looking at research from abroad. We should understand the difficulties of the individual concerned, who must go to endless meetings that require explanation of a complex medical condition not understood by people in the benefits world—and why should it be? It requires someone with a detailed understanding of a narrow field of clinical work to understand it. It is a question of constantly having to explain it again to someone new, and recognising that the situation will last a lifetime.
Perhaps a miracle cure or a way to reverse the condition will be found, but we cannot say. At the moment we need the Government to recognise—through the benefits delivery networks, as well as in terms of the Minister’s responsibilities—that there are people who acted for the right reasons and who need support. They need support in their battle to get their condition recognised and understood. There is a growing experience across developed economies, where the right measures are taken to protect young people from disease, of people being affected in the wrong way in certain circumstances. I hope that in future the system will permit greater protection for people such as my constituents. I applaud the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway for calling the debate.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
I will not detain the House for long. I want briefly to raise the case of my constituent Stacey Jones, who suffered life-altering changes to her health following the administration of the HPV vaccine six or seven years ago. For Stacey it has meant seizures and mood swings—severe continuing problems that require treatment to this day. I pay tribute to her brave mother, Julie Jones, who has fought to have her daughter’s condition recognised. She brought it to my attention and that of Ministers and the local medical profession, and she has tried to put the plight of young women such as Stacey on the agenda.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) for his work in obtaining the debate, and more broadly on the issue. Although the subject is compensation, I want to put a broader question to the Minister. Does she agree that it cannot be right for young women and their families, such as Stacey and her mother, to be regarded simply as collateral damage for the vaccine programme? That is how the families feel. In a sense, that is a question for my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) as well as for the Minister, because there is an election coming and I am not sure whether the Minister or my hon. Friend will occupy the Government Front Bench in a couple of months. I hope that they both agree that it cannot be right for young women such as Stacey to be regarded as collateral damage of a vaccine programme. If so, how do we change the view of such families, who feel that the Department of Health simply brushes aside their concerns, does not acknowledge them and does not take them seriously?
The health problems that those young women are suffering from are real, but they feel that they are being ignored. I ask the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree, to address in their summing-up speeches the question of not just compensation, but the attitude shown to such families, who feel that they are being ignored, so that their plight is taken more seriously whether or not they are entitled to compensation under the law.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) for securing this important debate and for his work as chair of the all-party group for vaccine damaged people. His tireless campaigning on behalf of his constituents, and others who have been affected by vaccine damage, is commendable.
I also thank all hon. Members and right hon. and hon. Friends for their contributions throughout the debate, which are testament to the strong feelings about this issue on both sides of the House. My hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) talked about the challenges experienced by her constituents. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made a large contribution and I was specifically interested in hearing what he said about the emotional trauma experienced by families. The hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) both talked about their constituents’ experiences of the HPV vaccine.
Vaccinations are crucial to our NHS as a way of preventing disease and the spread of infection. The research and discoveries made every day by the scientific community lead us closer to disease prevention that could not have been imagined when the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979 was passed. The improvements in vaccine uptake in recent years have resulted in a greater proportion of children being vaccinated now than ever before.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway made clear the purpose of today’s debate is not to question the importance of the national vaccination programme to the health of our population; instead, it is to bring to the House’s attention those occasions on which vaccinations have gone wrong, with deeply distressing and life-changing consequences, and the challenges surrounding the support system in place for those people who are sadly affected.
I recently attended a meeting of the all-party group in Parliament and at another meeting I met a group of parents and their daughters who had been affected by the HPV vaccination. The stories I heard in both meetings highlighted that, in the event of such tragedies, it is vital that people who suffer from vaccine injury can expect to receive support to ease the burden on them and their families. They certainly should not have to battle to get what they are entitled to.
At those meetings, the deep sense of injustice felt by many of the families who live every day with the burden of disability caused by vaccine damage was clear. In response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East, I should say that I hope that the parents and people affected believe that I was at that meeting to listen to them. I very much appreciate that they feel that they are not being listened to, on top of the challenges that they have faced over many years.
As we heard, the vaccine damage payments scheme was established under the Vaccine Damage Payments Act in 1979 to provide tax-free lump sum payments to people severely disabled as a result of vaccination against specific diseases. Despite the gradual expansion of support under numerous Governments and some important reforms made in 2000 following a review of the scheme, the system has many challenges today. We have heard many compelling reasons for reform.
Since the scheme was first introduced, the number of payments made has fallen dramatically. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway said, since 2010-11 no vaccine damage payments have been made at all. That may be down to vaccines and vaccine safety, but it is troubling that, despite hundreds of applications from people whose disability was sufficient for them to be considered to have a strong enough case, not one payment has been made. I hope that the Minister will explain why such a gulf exists between applications for support and actual payments made. I hope she will share her view on why the number of payments has gone down to zero in recent years.
I understand that there is a robust qualification process and that, to qualify for compensation, a person must be assessed to be 60% permanently disabled for life. In considering cases, it is right that medical advisers have regard to whether informed medical opinion suggests that there may be a causal link between the claimed adverse event and vaccination. I appreciate that the line must be drawn somewhere, but will the Minister share with us whether any flexibility is built into the system to allow a person assessed as being very close to the 60% qualification point—perhaps they are 59% permanently disabled—to receive support under the scheme? Surely a person suffering such a level of disability has a substantial need, which the scheme is intended to accommodate. It seems unjust that, by just missing out on the threshold, they would receive no payment at all under the scheme, so it is left to the family to shoulder that burden.
Has the Minister considered the case for reforming the minimum level of disability required for a person to qualify? We have heard today that, even when a person does qualify as having a serious disability, the Government have fought against such decisions. Take the case of people who suffer from narcolepsy as a result of the swine flu vaccine, which we have heard about today. Despite a causal link with the vaccine having been established and a tribunal having concluded that that should be considered a “serious disability,” the Department for Work and Pensions appealed against the decision. Will the Minister share with us why the DWP would go against such a decision? Will she clarify how her Government reach a decision on whether to appeal against a tribunal decision?
As we have heard in the debate, there are many other anomalies in the coverage provided by the Act. I note the recent additions this year of the rotavirus and influenza vaccinations to the list of specified diseases to which the Act applies. Despite that, it does not provide a comprehensive safety net. Will the Minister explain the review process that takes place before a vaccine is included on that list? Why are some vaccines, such as pandemic influenza and hepatitis A and B vaccines, excluded? The current scheme focuses largely on the childhood immunisation programme, but it covers people over the age of 18 for certain diseases. We have heard the word “patchy” used today, which is a fair assessment.
I was concerned to learn that 814 applications had been rejected on non-medical grounds because they were made either out of time or outside the scheme’s scope. The scheme allows for no extension to the time limit, even when the applicant did not have knowledge of the scheme or did not know that they might qualify for a claim. To refuse someone the support they need on the grounds that they have not made the deadline seems inflexible. Does the Minister have plans to build more flexibility into the rules about the time frames in which applications need to be made?
There are other anomalies. In the event that a child under two dies from an adverse reaction to a vaccine, their family are not eligible to receive any payment under the scheme. The logic for that is unclear. Why should the family of a child who dies after their second birthday be more deserving of compensation than one whose child died a day before? I would welcome clarification from the Minister on whether she plans to review that.
In a written answer to me at the end of last year, the Minister said that the Government had
“no plans to make changes”
to the 1979 Act. Has she reconsidered that position since then? If not, does she have any plans to review that decision?
The debate has raised issues that need to be tackled if we are to ensure that we have a comprehensive support system for vaccine damaged people and to promote confidence in the uptake of vaccines. The support scheme put in place by the 1979 Act was of its time and intended to be an interim solution. However, it has become—albeit with some changes over the years—a permanent one.
People need to be assured that, in the unlikely event that something goes wrong, they will be looked after. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway made a powerful case for reform, which I hope the Minister will take away and give her full consideration. I look forward to her response.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison)
I congratulate all hon. Members who have taken part in this debate. In particular, I congratulate the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) on securing the time to discuss an issue that is never easy to discuss. Other Members have alluded to the fact that when I, as a Health Minister, have looked at schemes about population-level health, sometimes there are discussions about the impact on individuals within that population and those discussions are very difficult to have.
I also congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the tone in which he has conducted this debate and indeed on the way that he has represented families and individuals over some years because, as I say, sometimes these are difficult issues to discuss. He has chaired the all-party group in a constructive way and I am sure that that has been appreciated by successive Ministers.
Also, the hon. Gentleman has said it before in this House, but I was very pleased that today he reiterated his support and that of the all-party group for a public vaccination programme. We are lucky to have a comprehensive and world-class national immunisation programme. I note that the vast majority of people who have concerns about the issue that we are discussing today do not disagree with the need for vaccination programmes of that nature.
Such programmes are a vital way of protecting individuals and the community as a whole from serious diseases. Vaccination is recognised by the World Health Organisation as the most effective public health intervention after the provision of clean drinking water. It has led to the eradication or major reductions in infectious diseases that used to be a serious threat to public health. British parents no longer see their children being crippled by polio, because that disease has been eliminated from the UK and, thankfully, from most of the world. Before measles vaccines were introduced, there were as many as 750,000 cases of measles in England and Wales in epidemic years, and about one in every 1,000 children infected would die.
Vaccinations are now safer than they have ever been, notwithstanding—obviously—the concerns that have been expressed during this debate. However, I recognise that on the very rare occasions when vaccinations can cause severe disability, that places both the person themselves and their families under enormous strain. Right hon. and hon. Members have spoken about that most movingly during the afternoon.
Of course, that is one of the main reasons why the vaccine damage payment scheme was introduced. As others have said, it was intended to help ease the present and future burdens of those individuals who are severely disabled as a result of vaccine damage.
I am sure it has been said before, but it is worth clarifying for the House that the VDPS payment is not compensation and it does not prejudice the right of the disabled person to pursue a claim against the manufacturer of the vaccine, although I of course acknowledge the obstacles that many people face in doing that. The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway, who led the debate, spelled them out. However, such payments would of course be taken into account if compensation was awarded.
The scheme, introduced in 1979, provides a tax-free, lump sum payment—as others have said, it is now up to £120,000—for those who are severely disabled as a result of a vaccination against those diseases listed in the 1979 Act and those that have been specified since 1979 by statutory instrument. It acknowledges that people who are severely disabled early in life have less opportunity to earn and save, and the degree of disablement is assessed on the same basis as for the industrial injuries disablement benefit scheme.
The disability threshold is set at 60%. I understand, of course, that there are those who argue that the level of disability should be assessed on a sliding scale. However, such a sliding scale of disability and payments would run counter to the scheme’s principle of providing a straightforward single payment for those who the Secretary of State for Health is satisfied are severely disabled as a result of vaccination.
To qualify for the scheme, a person must have become severely disabled as a result of vaccination. As I think the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), acknowledged, that causative link is needed for the scheme to be workable, but it does make for some difficult cases and some difficult conversations. I understand that, but that causative link helps us to target public funds properly for people who suffer disablement as a consequence of vaccination.
As with all civil matters, the standard of proof for causation is “on the balance of probabilities”. So, based on the available evidence, does the medical adviser consider that vaccination caused the disability? Notwithstanding the suggestions made to change, improve or even replace the scheme, there would always need to be an assessment of causation and it would always be the case that for some people who had suffered a disability, it would be viewed that the cause was not vaccination. There would always be instances that did not meet that criterion.
The scheme does not require the medical adviser to be certain or sure but only to consider that it is more likely than not that vaccination caused disability. These independent medical advisers are well placed and experienced enough to make that judgment, which is not made by politicians but by people who are carefully trained. For example, doctors who assess claims must be approved to carry out assessments by the chief medical adviser to the Department for Work and Pensions, and that approval is only granted when they have demonstrated full competence. Also, those doctors are subject to strict 100% quality audits until approval is achieved. I say that to make the point that there is a considerable degree of both medical expertise and independence involved in those assessments. I can also confirm that mental health, which I think was mentioned by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), is taken into account in those assessments of individuals.
The payment scheme is not intended to address all the financial implications of disablement for those affected by vaccines, which we have heard about this afternoon, and, as I have said, there is nothing to prevent people from bringing claims, although I understand that that process is difficult, as has been outlined.
The scheme is only one part of the wide range of support and help available to severely disabled people in the UK. For example, as many hon. Members will be aware, disability living allowance provides an important non-contributory, non-means-tested and tax-free cash contribution towards the disability-related extra costs of severely disabled children.
The VDPS covers immunisation provided in the routine childhood vaccination programme against specified diseases. It also temporarily covered vaccination against pandemic swine flu during the swine flu pandemic in 2009 and 2010. Hon. Members have raised applications to the scheme from individuals who developed narcolepsy and cataplexy following immunisation that used the swine flu pandemic vaccine, pandemrix. I will take this opportunity to emphasise that we appreciate how distressing narcolepsy and cataplexy are, and we understand the concerns of those who have been affected, and the concerns of their families. The DWP administers the VDPS and takes professional medical advice on the degree of disability involved, and obviously the Department of Health is responsible for policy in this area.
Swine flu vaccines were developed specifically for use in a flu pandemic, when the number of lives that could be lost and the number of people who could suffer serious illness would have been enormous. In the circumstances, it was considered by Ministers at the time that it was suitable to extend the VDPS temporarily, but in the circumstances that currently prevail it is inappropriate for me to comment on individual cases; I hope the House understands that.
The Government are advised on all immunisation matters by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, which is a statutory and independent body. The JCVI is also a departmental expert committee, constituted for the purpose of advising the Secretary of State for Health, and it keeps all immunisation matters under review, providing advice and recommendations to Ministers on all current and potential programmes, and advising the UK health Departments on national immunisation policy, including the safety and efficacy of a programme.
The Department of Health ensures that all its information on vaccination is clear that vaccines may have side effects, which thankfully are usually minor. However, the fact that a vaccine has been licensed shows that the benefits have been assessed as outweighing any known possible side effects. Nevertheless, as with any medicine or health care product, unfortunately a vaccine may cause side effects in some people. We have heard the stories of some of those who have been affected in that way.
Vaccine safety is of paramount importance and, as with all medicines and health care products, the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency and the Government’s independent expert advisory Commission on Human Medicines keep the safety of all vaccines under close and continual review. In response to the concerns that were raised by Members during the time that I have been the Minister with responsibility for public health, I have sought the advice of the MHRA, and had discussions with it, to raise some of the issues that Members have put to me, and to understand in some detail that process of continual review. I was satisfied that it is very robust and based on a continual review of the available evidence, both in this country and internationally.
The UK’s childhood immunisation schedule has been recommended by experts after consideration of a wide range of evidence, which, as I have said, includes evidence about safety reactions. That evidence is both national and international. The vaccines have undergone rigorous testing with large numbers of people before they are licensed, and their safety is continuously monitored to discover and assess any rare side effects. Vaccines are among the safest medicines available and as such, and as I have said before, side effects are rare. I am concerned that the hon. Gentleman thinks that reactions are not being captured properly. Again, I asked the MHRA about that. Obviously, the hon. Gentleman is well aware of the yellow card scheme, but perhaps he wants to give me more detail after the debate about reactions not being captured.
Mr Brown
On that point, it became abundantly clear, when I met the two ladies whom I mentioned in respect of their daughters and the HPV vaccine, that one of those mothers faced a major challenge in pursuing the local health authority to get the card recording exactly what had happened. There appeared to be some reluctance, although I am not sure what was underpinning all that. Some people have faced a challenge getting it properly recorded.
Jane Ellison
I am sure it would help the MHRA if the hon. Gentleman sent it details of that example. However, it sounds a little bit more as if there was a problem with a local clinician recording adverse reaction than with the scheme itself. I note what he says.
The UK’s programme has been a considerable success. I know that, in the context of such a debate, it seems hard to assert that, but I think that all hon. Members would acknowledge that generally speaking this country is seen as having a successful immunisation programme. Regarding MMR, which has been mentioned, coverage in England for children reaching their second birthday rose to 92.7% in 2013-14, compared with 92.3% in 2012-13. That is the sixth consecutive year that a rise in MMR coverage has been reported, and coverage is at its highest level since the vaccine was first introduced in 1988.
I note the hon. Gentleman’s concern that the current level of award may limit the take-up of vaccines, but I am hesitant to accept that as evidence, given the improved take-up of the MMR vaccine during a period when the VDPS has not changed. I am hesitant to accept what he says, but if there is peer-reviewed evidence of the link between the level of the scheme and the take-up of particular vaccines, I suggest he submits that to the Department.
Hon. Members will know that, since 1 May 2014, the VDPS has been the joint responsibility of the Department for Work and Pensions and the Department of Health. As set out in the 1979 Act, the Department of Health is responsible for policy, for example, changes to the list of infectious diseases covered by the Act in line with changes to the immunisation programme. The shadow Minister mentioned diseases added to the scheme. As has been said, the Department for Work and Pensions remains responsible for assessing the claims.
Hon. Members have put on the record the number of claims and awards made. I note concerns about awards made in recent years, but again it is perhaps not entirely right to assume that that is, in some sense, because the criteria have been changed, or anything like that. I have outlined the independent expertise of the medical assessors, and said that vaccines have got safer. Again, the causative link needs to be proved. However, I note the hon. Gentleman’s concern, and that of other hon. Members, about the lack of recent awards.
The vaccine damage payment scheme has always covered diseases vaccinated against as part of the childhood immunisation programme. That approach underlines successive Governments’ intention that the scheme should help children who are rarely, but regrettably, severely disabled. As I said, changes to and recommendations about that programme are made by the JCVI.
In 2002, the scheme was reviewed and changes were made. The threshold of disability was reduced from 80% to 60% and, as we have said, the payment increased to £120,000.
Jane Ellison
My sense is that the scheme, which aims to provide proportionate help, has got the balance about right, but I have heard the concerns expressed today. It is worth noting that successive Governments have considered this matter and chosen not to alter the scheme. That consideration would have involved looking at it in some detail. Equally, I note gently that the shadow Minister, analysed the situation and asked many questions, but made no commitments, although she aspires to sit in my place in just a few weeks.
The House will note that many successive Governments of different parties have looked at the scheme and have, I think, drawn the same conclusion, which is that the balance is about right. That is not to say that the hon. Gentleman’s concerns are not listened to: far from it. I have listened to his concerns and will take those away and reflect on them.
There are no current plans to make any changes to the time limits. Again, the hon. Gentleman made his case about that, as did other hon. Members.
Barbara Keeley
I hear what the Minister is saying, but this may be the last chance to comment. I talked about a case where the payments are not in any way compensatory. Previous Governments lifted the level of payment substantially up to £120,000. Can she not give any hope to parents in their 60s who are struggling with care? Care is expensive, and increasingly so under her Government. What can she say to give some hope to parents in that situation, of whom, as we have heard, there are very many, including my constituents?
Jane Ellison
The challenge is that a number of aspects of the scheme, which has existed under successive Governments, make some individual cases particularly hard. The hon. Lady has touched on some reasons for that in her contribution.
The Government have no plans to change how the scheme is run, as one might expect in the last week before the House rises before the general election, and there are no plans to review it, as I have said. However, we are about to have a new Parliament. I am sure that the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway and other hon. Members may wish to return to this subject. The work of the all-party group will continue. The hon. Gentleman has indicated that he wants to raise the reform of the Act in the new Parliament. The shadow Minister has made some points, but no commitments. The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway may therefore wish to use the next few weeks lobbying within his own party, if he cannot speak in Parliament, making his case forcefully to his colleague.
I note the concerns expressed today. I am not in a position to say that the scheme will be reviewed. As is the way of these things, all these matters will now be for a new Government to consider. However, the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway put his points thoughtfully, as ever, and they have been thoughtfully taken on board and will be considered.
The Shrewsbury 24
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Caton.
I do not intend to rehearse the issues raised during a debate on 23 January 2014, because I think that all hon. Members in this Chamber attended it. However, I shall say that the will of Parliament is being defied by this Government. The will of Parliament on 23 January 2014, by 120 votes to three, was that documents should be released so that people who were locked up in 1973 could have the chance to clear their name.
We were advised and supported by the Minister, who said he would try to help us take this matter forward. He met us in the Lobby after the debate, and he then met us—me, along with Ricky Tomlinson, who was one of those locked up in 1973, and Eileen Turnbull, who works for the campaign—in July last year. We told him then that there were far more documents than he related in his response to the debate—four redacted letters, currently being withheld. We said there were a lot more than that; and, to give credit where it is due, the Minister went away and released an Excel spreadsheet of 2,282 file references being held by the Government.
Out of those 2,000-plus, the campaign team, led by Eileen Turnbull, selected 51 that she believed could have a direct connection to the trials. When she inquired whether those files could be released from the National Archives, she was told that she would have to apply to each respective Department where the files were being held. She has applied for six files from two Departments by way of freedom of information requests. She has been told in no uncertain terms that “None of the above” will be available for public scrutiny. They are being withheld under section 23 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. On asking for a review of those decisions in February this year, she was told on 20 and 24 February that the response to the application for a review was not to release the documents. Therefore, with great respect to the Minister, the words he gave us had no bearing. We have moved nowhere.
Those of us who are involved in this issue are clear that we would like to see a number of files. I will list just six, but that is out of a great big bunch that we could go into. First, we would like access to the relevant un-redacted Cabinet documents and internal police, intelligence and Security Service records for the period from the start of the national strike in May 1972 to the subsequent convictions in March 1974, together with any such files relating to the Shrewsbury pickets beyond those dates. Secondly, we would like access to documents that deal with communications between Departments and the National Federation of Building Trades Employers, particularly those involving Sir Robert McAlpine.
Thirdly, we would like access to any documents that deal with the decision to set up a police investigation squad in north Wales led by the chief constable of Gwynedd and the chief constable of West Mercia after the strike in 1972 to collect statements that led to the prosecution of the 24 Shrewsbury pickets. Fourthly, we ask for a copy of the joint report of the chief constable of Gwynedd and the chief constable of West Mercia in 1972-73, which included a statement that, in their view, any violence by pickets was sporadic and episodic and that they did not have the evidence to bring conspiracy charges against the pickets, although those were ultimately levied against them in court.
Fifthly, we would like records of communications between any combination of the following: the Home Secretary and the Home Office, the Attorney-General, the Director of Public Prosecutions, Treasury counsel, the chief constables of West Mercia and Gwynedd and Sir Maurice Drake, QC, who was acting for the prosecution in 1972-73. Finally, we would like all documents relating to the decision of the Lord Chancellor to make the practice direction ending the right of the defence to know the occupation of jurors, something that was overturned just before the case. We would also like a copy of said direction. That document, which should be in the public domain, is still unobtainable through the usual sources. That is a short list of some of the things that have been hidden from public view by this Government and by previous Governments.
What we are talking about in this debate is justice, integrity and honour, but we are also talking about real people’s lives—the 24 men who were convicted in 1973: John Carpenter, John McKinsie Jones, John Elfyn Llywarch, Kenneth Desmond Francis O’Shea, Eric Tomlinson, Dennis Michael Warren, William Michael Pierce, John Malcolm Clee, John Gary Davies, Derrick Hughes, Samuel Roy Warburton, Thomas Brian Williams, Alfred James, Dennis Morris, George Arthur Murray, Patrick Kevin Butcher, William Charles Leslie Hooson, Terence Renshaw, Graham Roberts, John Kenneth Seaburg, Peter Alfred Sear, Bryn Thomas, Edward Leonard Williams and Thomas Bernard Williams.
Those 24 men have never had their names cleared. Sadly, four of them—John Carpenter, Des Warren, Alfred James and John Kenneth Seaburg—will never know if their names will be cleared, because they are now dead. Their families are still living with the burden that their husbands, fathers and brothers have gone to their graves as convicted criminals. The youngest of the men still surviving is almost 70 and the oldest is 90. It is 42 years since they were convicted and this Government are holding on to records, transcripts and paperwork that could clear their names. It simply is not right in this day and age. We are constantly told by our Prime Minister that we should let the sunshine in and have transparency. That is all we have asked for in these debates, and it is the one thing we have never had.
With your latitude, Mr Caton, I want to quote from the transcript of the court case. I will quote from the summing up of the case, first from Ricky Tomlinson and then from Des Warren. Everyone knows who Ricky Tomlinson is—he is a national treasure and an icon—but he still clearly regards himself first and foremost as a City and Guilds plasterer who was doing a job trying to protect himself and the men he worked with from working in some of the worst and most arduous conditions in the world. While he was waiting to be sentenced, this is what he said to the judge—the judge did not want to hear it, and I am not surprised. These are just some snippets. He said:
“It was said by Goebbels in the last war that if you repeat a lie often enough it eventually becomes accepted as the truth. This I have observed being put into practice here in this court…I can sympathise with members of the jury because they have been used in this charade in just the same way as myself and my colleagues. We must remember that British justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done…No sentence passed on me by this court, however lenient or however severe, can hurt me more than I have already been hurt. I have been almost continuously unemployed since my arrest and, of course, this punishes my wife and two infant sons to a far greater extent that it does me. During the length and course of this trial my family have been abused by the very people whose duty it is to assist them…The sentence passed on me by this court will not matter. My innocence has been proved time and again by the building workers of Wrexham whom I represent, and also by the building workers from all over the land who have sent particular messages of support to myself and my family and my colleagues…I know my children when they are old enough, will understand that the struggle we took part in was for their benefit and for the benefit and interest of building workers and their families.”
That is true; sadly, they know that their father is still effectively a convicted criminal. He then went on to say these words, which are why we are here today:
“I look forward to the day when the real culprits of these crimes, the McAlpines, the Wimpey’s, the Laings and the Bovis’s, and all their political bodies, are in the dock facing charges of conspiracy to intimidate workers from doing what is their lawful right, picketing.”
He also spoke about the fact that those companies were running building sites in this country where one builder a day was dying. The companies were abusing health and safety legislation, which was there to protect the men and boys working on the sites.
I now move on to the speech made by Des Warren. He was the first to admit that he was a political activist. He was one of the “reds under the bed” that people were terrified of in the 1970s. He never hid away from that, but he was also a proud working man. This is what he had to say:
“I have spent a week in jail, and people in there and various other people, not including my counsel, have told me that it was always a mistake to make a speech from the dock, because whatever you are going to get will be doubled. I tried to explain to them that the system that operates is purely for the upper class, and I don’t expect any leniency or mercy from it, so I’ll continue anyway.
It has been said in this court that this trial had nothing do with politics. Among ten million trade unionists in this country I doubt if you would find one who would agree with that statement. It is a fact of life that Acts of Parliament have been passed and picketing and strikes are looked upon as a political act. It therefore follows that every action taken in furtherance of an industrial dispute also becomes a political act…On the other hand, employers, by their contempt of laws governing safety requirements, are guilty of causing the deaths of a great many workers, and yet they are not dealt with before the courts. Mr. Bumble said: ‘The law is an ass.’ If he were here now he might draw the conclusion that the law is, quite clearly, an instrument of the state, to be used in the interests of a tiny minority against the majority. It is biased; it is class law, and nowhere has that been demonstrated more than in the prosecution case in this trial…Was there a conspiracy? Ten members of the jury have said there was. There was a conspiracy, but not by the pickets…The conspiracy was between the Home Secretary, the employers and the police. It was not done with a nod and a wink. It was conceived after pressure from Tory Members of Parliament who demanded changes in picketing laws…The working class movement cannot allow this verdict to go unchallenged. It is yet one more step along the road to fascism, and I would remind you that the greatest heroes in Nazi Germany were those who challenged the law, when it was used as a political weapon by a fanatical gang for a minority of greedy, evil men.”
This man died as a direct result of the way he was treated in prison. He was treated disgracefully. He was beaten up and given liquid medication that caused him to develop Parkinson’s. He suffered desperately. My sister nursed him in the 1980s and said it was the hardest she had ever done. This man was effectively killed by the state, even if it took 30 years for him to die.
So this is a debate about justice and honour, but it is also about the Minister; because the Minister, if he does not help us today, will again defy the will of Parliament. We all recognise his long track record inside and out of the House of being honest and being honourable—of being a seeker after truth. What we saw in the mid-1970s was a group of men who were set up and who were locked up. Ever since then there has been a cover-up, which has lasted 42 years.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this very timely debate. Does he agree that the only crime that these men committed was to fight for better health and safety on the building sites? During that time, 571 people had been killed in a three-year period and 221,000 people had been injured on construction sites. That, coupled with £30 for 30 hours, was what these people were fighting for. It was a miscarriage of justice of the highest order.
Mr Anderson
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Like me, he worked in the mining industry, which saw some of the most horrific accident and death statistics going back centuries. We fought against that and turned it around in the mining industry. The people in the building industry were trying to do exactly what we did. They wanted to bring to the building sites the sort of legislation and protection that we had achieved, sometimes through industrial action, but also through coming into this place and getting legislation passed to protect people at work. That is what these men were doing. They also wanted a decent living wage, because £30 was not a lot of money in 1972. They wanted a reasonable pay rise, but they were also defending people’s lives and limbs.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
May I ask the Minister a question through my hon. Friend? Why is it that the Government are reducing the 30-year rule to 20 years, yet in correspondence on this matter with me the Ministry of Justice has increased the information release date from 30 years to 40 years? My five constituents, who are among the names mentioned by my hon. Friend, cannot get justice until 2022, when many of them will be very old indeed.
Mr Anderson
My right hon. Friend asks a very valid question, and I hope that we get an answer from the Minister. It beggars belief. We know the context in which this case took place. We had industrial strife in a number of industries and obviously a lot was happening in Northern Ireland. We also know the context of police behaviour in the 1970s, because it is now coming out through things such as the Saville and Hillsborough inquiries, issues relating to the miners’ strike at Orgreave and the behaviour of the security services in relation to the Birmingham and Guildford bombings, for example. We are talking about 24 men among a larger group who went to a picket line. On the day, not one of them was charged, warned or arrested. If they had done something that warranted arrest, they would have been arrested there and then—not five months later, not after a fishing expedition, but on the day.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. He has assiduously pursued this issue since he came into Parliament. One way in which the trade unions were undermined in the ’60s and ’70s, certainly in the building industry, was through something called lump labour, which kept wages down. Sometimes these things are forgotten in this day and age, but they happened then. Sometimes people were expected to work in appalling conditions, and if someone got blacklisted, it was like a life sentence: they never got another job.
Mr Anderson
I thank my hon. Friend for reminding us of that, because what the building employers were doing was not only bad in terms of people’s working conditions; they were actually breaking the law. They were encouraging people not to be paid properly. In effect, those employers were not paying income tax or national insurance contributions, so they were stealing from the public purse, while at the same time coercing the Home Secretary to pressure the police into bringing forward a case against 24 innocent men, whom the judiciary would then prosecute as a warning to others. That is exactly what this is all about, and I am convinced that the papers show that. My right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) asked why the information release date has been extended to 40 years; I am not sure that we will get the answers even in 2022, if we are still around. The sad reality is that some of these men will not be around. That is a disgrace.
I look to the Minister as someone who, I believe, is an honourable man. I know that he does not have much time left over the next few days, but he may be in the same post in eight weeks’ time. Obviously, my colleagues and I hope that it will be someone from our party sitting in his place, because we have pledged to release the papers, and we have said that we will do it no matter what the Security Service or the spooks tell us. We will release them, because we see this as a debt to the people of the country, but we also see it as exercising the will of Parliament. Parliament spoke in January last year; that voice has been blocked deliberately by this Government. I look to the Minister today to try to help us to move that blockage and to move it now.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon Hughes)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton.
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson); he knows that I respect hugely his commitment to this issue. I will not repeat myself, but he also knows from the large debate that we had on the Floor of the House in January last year that I am very sympathetic to the cause that was the basis of the dispute. I represented many building workers in the past, and I know that practice in the building industry was often appalling. In the ’70s and earlier, safety was poor, so it was an important campaign for the unions to be involved with. I therefore start from a position of both respect for the people in the unions who were involved and support for the cause that they were campaigning on. I remember the dispute, and I thank the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues for continuing to pursue the issue. I will be as helpful as I can. He came to see me after the previous debate, and we discussed how we could make as much progress as possible.
I will try to deal with the issues quickly, but let me first summarise the facts. In 1972, there was a strike by building workers in Shrewsbury. A number of the picketers were then arrested on charges of unlawful assembly and conspiracy to intimidate. Several picketers, whom the hon. Gentleman named, were given prison sentences. That was controversial, partly because of the alleged role of the security services, and the Justice for Shrewsbury Pickets campaign was established with the intention of having the convictions overturned.
In recent years, there has been a renewed push for the release of all Government-retained papers on the issue. I have seen Ricky Tomlinson here. He attended the previous debate and has taken a direct interest, having launched an e-petition for the release of the documents that garnered 33,000 signatures. Another petition was submitted in December 2013 with about 70,000 signatures. Together, they probably crossed the 100,000 signatures trigger line for e-petitions. That led to the Backbench Business Committee granting the debate on the Floor of the House on 23 January last year. The hon. Gentleman is right that an overwhelming majority of the Members who voted in that debate called for the papers to be published, and that included not only Opposition Members but Government Members.
Since then, some of the Shrewsbury 24 have applied to the Criminal Cases Review Commission—I discussed that with the hon. Gentleman when we met. Ministers understand that, as part of its ongoing consideration of the case, the CCRC has exercised its powers under the Criminal Appeal Act 1995 to access papers relevant to the case. It has not come to a public position on that, but its staff have seen the papers and they have regarded and taken account of them in as much as they wish to do so.
The majority of the papers relating to the Shrewsbury 24 were released under the Public Records Act 1958 to the National Archives. Under sections 62 and 63 of the Freedom of Information Act—this relates to the point made by the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson)—a record becomes an historical record 20 years after it was created, so the right hon. Gentleman is right, the Government have legislated to make the 30-year rule a 20-year rule. Gradually we are working our way down so that in a few years all public papers, unless they are exempted, will be released under the 20-year rule. I will come on to the qualification to which he referred.
Under the existing public records legislation, all records selected for permanent preservation must be transferred to the National Archives by the time that they are 30 years old unless—this is the key issue—they are needed for administrative purposes or
“ought to be retained for any other special reason”.
Where that is deemed to be the case, the Department in question must seek the Lord Chancellor’s approval.
Since 1967, successive Lord Chancellors in the three different types of Administration have been satisfied that information related to security and intelligence matters falls within the category of “other special reason”. The approval granted in an administrative instrument signed by the Lord Chancellor is referred to as a security and intelligence “blanket”.
The date to which the hon. Member for Blaydon and the right hon. Member for Delyn referred arises from the current blanket approval given on 19 December 2011 by the then Lord Chancellor, running up to the end of 2021. It is then up to individual Departments to decide whether they wish to rely on the security blanket to keep information from the National Archives.
Papers retained under the blanket should be reviewed for ongoing sensitivity every 10 years. The Cabinet Office has told me, as I told the hon. Member for Blaydon last year, that the process to review the papers held by it is now under way and will be completed by the end of this year, as required under the Public Records Act.
I am aware that colleagues have been in touch with Ministers in the Cabinet Office. There have also been questions to me by the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark), which I answered in March last year, and by the hon. Member for Blaydon on 9 March this year, which the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General answered:
“A review of these retained papers is under way and will be completed by the end of 2015, as required by the Public Records Act.”
Today I saw that the hon. Gentleman was down to ask an oral question as well.
I have also seen a letter about a constituent to the Minister for Employment from the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General dated yesterday:
“Thank you for your e-mail…addressed to the Minister of State for Justice…regarding the release of papers relating to the Shrewsbury 24. The ongoing sensitivity of this material is subject to periodic review and they are being reviewed this year. I am responding as the Minister responsible.
An outline of the material which has been retained was given to Parliament in a statement by Simon Hughes on 23 January 2014. The process to review the papers is under way and will be completed by the end of 2015, as required by the Public Records Act. I can also advise you that the Criminal Cases Review Commission has seen the papers and expressed no interest.”
It is open to the hon. Member for Blaydon, even at this stage in this Parliament, to make a request to the Cabinet Office, whose decision it is, to have a meeting with the Minister whose responsibility it will be as to whether to release those papers this year. I urge the hon. Gentleman to do that. He has pursued assiduously all sorts of approaches to open up what has happened and I hope that, if he has not already done so, he will approach the Cabinet Office Minister directly for a meeting to make the formal request ahead of the decision.
Mr Anderson
That is the intent of my question to the Cabinet Office, which is down for tomorrow, but I am on my feet to ask a different question. Does the Minister not find it strange that despite what was said in last year’s debate and what I have said today, and despite campaigners out in the public domain attacking judges, police, Ministers, big business and every part of the establishment, not one of them has responded by saying, “You have made all this up”? Not one has said, “You’re wrong, you’re out of order.” Does that not give even more credence to the fact of a cover-up to conceal what people have done, which was deliberately to put those people in jail as a lesson to working men and women?
Simon Hughes
I absolutely understand the hon. Gentleman’s drawing that conclusion. To be fair—trying to step back for a second—the fact that nothing has been said can be open to interpretation in either direction, but I completely understand the view that if there were nothing to hide, someone might have said that. Legalistically, however, people might rightly have said that they could make no comment.
May I be helpful in two other ways? In fact, I want to say three other things in the remaining few minutes. Four documents are central to the case, so let me put on the record what they are: a Security Service report; a letter from the director-general of the Security Service to the Cabinet Secretary, which was released but for one redacted paragraph; a minute from the Cabinet Office to No. 10 referring to the report, which was released except for a single paragraph; and a minute from No. 10 to the Cabinet Office in reply, which has been released except for a single paragraph. Those are the four documents that we are talking about—the four documents that we know about.
We also know that the bulk of the documents on the subject that are held by the Government have been released. According to the figures I have, of the 1972 records—all records, not only those concerning the builders’ strike—93.5%, or 50,917, are available to the public already; 2,932 are closed at the National Archives; and 1.1%, or 625 documents, are retained by Departments. The assiduous researcher of the hon. Member for Blaydon has addressed herself to those Departments on the hon. Gentleman’s behalf. The Departments have the responsibility to decide whether to release the documents. I do not have the power to order other Departments to release documents. If release is refused, there is a right of appeal under the Freedom of Information Act to the Information Commissioner and the Information Tribunal. I will continue to be as helpful as possible.
Ian Lavery
My hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) commented that the Minister was a respected person. I have no doubt that that is the case. Will the Minister tell us what powers he has to progress the matter? He has been in his position for quite some time now and I am wondering whether he has done anything at all.
Simon Hughes
Within my powers as a Minister in the Ministry of Justice I have done all that I can do. I do not have the power to direct other Departments to release documents for which they have the responsibility. The process is: application to the Department, which the researcher of the hon. Member for Blaydon has made, and, if turned down, a Freedom of Information Act appeal to the commissioner and to the tribunal. My advice continues to be to fight the case, as it were, in the other Department—this is not in relation to the four documents, which are covered by the Cabinet Office secrecy blanket. To see if there is further material, other documents have to be pursued Department by Department.
Ian Lavery
I understand all that. The question is, what powers does the Minister have and what powers has he used since becoming a Minister to progress matters in his own Department?
Simon Hughes
We do not hold any of the documents in my Department. The reason why I was responding to the debate is in part that I am the Minister with responsibility for freedom of information. I have ensured that the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Blaydon know exactly how to use the powers given to them by the law. I cannot take those powers away from them and I cannot tell Departments which information to release if they choose to refuse to do so, but there is a process in law that will take the hon. Gentlemen to the courts in order to have the information released.
May I share one other thing that I hope will answer hon. Members’ questions? I am keen, if possible, for the FOI requests to be accepted and for the information to be released across the Departments, as well as from the Cabinet Office. Under this year’s Cabinet Office process to decide whether to retain the documents, officials look at the material afresh and the test is whether the transfer of the records to the National Archives or any other place of deposit creates a “real risk of prejudice” to national security. That is the criterion they have to judge by. Officials have to make that decision with authority delegated from the Cabinet Office Minister.
The Lord Chancellor looked at the papers in 2012 and satisfied himself that the test was applied, but even that decision—if the hon. Member for Blaydon goes to the Cabinet Office to make the request and the papers are still not released—can be challenged by asking for that information through an FOI request, which has an appeals process, and through judicial review if appropriate. I am happy to put the resources of my Department at his disposal as a seeker after the facts, but it is the Cabinet Office, subject to the courts, that makes the call that will determine whether a document is released. I hope that there can be progress this year and that, for his sake and the sake of those whom he represents, there is therefore the release of the documents. The decision, however, is that of the Cabinet Office Minister.
Property Taxes in London
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
The so-called mansion tax is a big issue and will continue to be so in London for the next 44 days, in the run-up to the general election. It is not enough for those of us who are against what is proposed simply to oppose it. We—mainly Conservative Members—need to be on the front foot and have our own proposals for a property tax. That is what I want to put forward in this short debate.
As the new year dawned, the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) announced that the Labour party would
“tax houses in London and the South East to pay for 1,000 new nurses in the Scottish NHS.”
Although he later clarified that he was referring only to Scotland’s share of any new mansion tax, the coupling of Labour’s mansion tax policy to its battle to the death with the Scottish National party, north of the border, over NHS staffing was doubtless deliberate. The Scottish Labour leader knew only too well that his focus on two targets of Scottish resentment, notionally London and the well-off, would play wonderfully with his audience.
Alas, such messages resonate south of the border, as well. The notion of London and Londoners as some sort of cash cow able to fund all manner of policy promises has gained widespread traction in recent years. The capital city apparently sparkles with success and is brimful of confidence at a time when other parts of our kingdom are struggling. Increasingly people speak of London’s alienation from the rest of the UK, as the metropolis gobbles talent and makes a compelling case for its ever-increasing infrastructure budgets.
Meanwhile, the issue of housing in London itself has become toxic. Boosted by the weakness of sterling and the perception of the UK as a safe haven, foreign money has flooded into England’s prime housing market. As the international enclave expands in the central London boroughs, prices are driven up in the outer suburbs. Meanwhile, rapid population growth, a lack of housing supply and the difficulty of saving for a vast deposit, alongside boosted prices that were already artificially affected by low interest rates and Government programmes, have made it tough even for professionals to enter the property market in our capital city.
As a result, a passionate debate now rages about the possible imposition of a mansion tax, as a means of addressing the resentment felt both by the rest of the country towards its capital and by those Londoners excluded from the apparent property bonanza. Both the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats have made it clear that they wish to push ahead with such a levy on all properties valued at over £2 million. I appreciate that in a globally mobile world it is increasingly difficult to raise tax income, and so fixed assets such as real estate will inevitably tend to attract higher rates of taxation. But in spite of those parties’ apparent concern for fairness, as they would put it, neither has been receptive to the genuine worries of many of those hit hardest by their plans: people who happen to reside in homes whose value has inflated in recent decades to a level that bears no relation to the household’s ability to stump up large annual cash sums in a mansion-tax type levy—in other words, the asset rich but cash poor.
I suspect a hefty annual mansion tax would drive greater numbers of Londoners from their homes, vacating even more prime central property for the global super-rich. As such, it should be vigorously opposed. Undeniably, however, my own Conservative party risks being left behind in the public debate on the issue if it fails adequately to address the resentments behind the mansion tax’s apparent popularity. The Chancellor has already rapidly raised rates of stamp duty, particularly for homes purchased by companies, non-doms and offshore vehicles. Local authorities in London have also been given the power to remove most exemptions from council tax for empty homes and second homes via the Local Government Finance Act 2012. But the coalition is yet to grasp the nettle on council tax, and it is that prospect that I will raise with the Minister today.
As the Minister will know, council tax was introduced in April 1993 as the primary source of collecting income from local residents by local authorities, as a hybrid personal and property imposition. It came hot on the heels of the ill-fated and short-lived community charge—better known as the poll tax—which had itself replaced domestic rates in England in the spring of 1990. As we know, the levy for councils in England is calculated by allocating a dwelling to one of eight bands, A to H. The allocation is made on the basis of a property’s assumed capital value. But that assumption is based on prices as they stood on 1 April 1991—almost a quarter of a century ago. Newly constructed properties are also assigned a nominal 1991 value, albeit one reflecting national rather than localised variations in value over the past 24 years.
The tax is not even particularly proportionate to property values, as the same amount is levied on all homes valued at over £320,000 at 1991 prices, which is the national band H. That means that about half of all houses in the capital are now placed in the same council tax band, even though their size, location and value are vastly different. A Knightsbridge oligarch, for instance, is paying £1,353.48 in council tax on a £60 million home, exactly the same amount as that levied on properties worth one thirtieth of that sum—properties that would fall within the mansion tax band.
If the current outdated system of valuation seems ludicrous, it can be explained by a concern among politicians that the process and time taken for revaluation would be contentious, difficult and potentially costly to voters. However, there is a solution that is neither overly complex nor anything like as painful as a mansion tax. More important still, it could have a big upside when it comes to the provision of affordable housing.
My central London constituency has one of the highest concentrations of high-value properties anywhere in the country, so my constituents would be particularly vulnerable to the imposition of a new blanket mansion tax along the lines proposed. Indeed, over the past six or seven months I have been bombarded with letters telling me that, in spite of my vigorous opposition to a mansion tax, I should be doing more to stop my political opponents from even talking about one. Many of my constituents simply do not have the thousands of pounds in cash needed each year to pay a mansion tax levied in addition to council tax. They are also concerned that any additional income would go straight to central Government and be distributed elsewhere, along the lines of the promise of the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire to pay for Scottish nurses with Londoners’ money.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)
Like me, my right hon. Friend has received letters from people who have lived in their houses for very many years, many of whom are now widowed, who face the prospect of being forced out of their homes by this relatively iniquitous tax. It takes no account of ability to pay; it works from a snapshot. Its unfairness is regional and also generational.
Mark Field
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have all had heartfelt letters from elderly folk in particular who are worried sick about the prospect. As I say, the perverse impact would be that they would be driven out of their homes and those homes would be more likely to end up in the hands of the very oligarchs that the mansion tax is supposed to prevent from monopolising the London property market.
Many of my correspondents recognise that the current structure of council tax requires urgent updating and would be receptive to the imposition of additional bands to recognise differential property values—something that would, again, disproportionately penalise London. Currently, all banding ratios are set down in statute, but the Government could allow local authorities to set their own for band H and above, with bands A to G remaining at their existing statutory ratios. A ceiling could be set so that council tax would always be limited to, for example, a band J of three times the existing band H charge, to ensure that it would not become a mansion tax by the back door.
The City of Westminster might not be the most typical of local authorities, but obviously it is close to my heart. In that central London borough, a band H property is now likely to be worth more than £2 million; there are just under 15,000 of such homes. However, there is a vast difference between a £2 million flat in Pimlico and a home valued at £60 million in One Hyde Park in Knightsbridge.
Local authorities could be empowered to impose additional bands—for example, a band H for prime properties worth between £2 million and £5 million, a band I for intermediate prime properties worth between £5 million and £15 million and a band J for super-prime properties worth more than £15 million. Crucially, the Government ought to ensure that all additional council tax or prime property tax income over and above the existing band structure is retained by the local authority on the proviso that it is earmarked exclusively for affordable housing in the area. That positive and highly localised proposal could be a far more eye-catching and exciting way of countering the envy-driven mansion tax and tackling perceived housing inequality. It would also chime perfectly with the spirit of the age. As I mentioned earlier, the Government have moved towards a system that gives local authorities discretion over empty property taxes, so we are already empowering local authorities to apply local circumstances to the levying elements of council tax.
Strong currents are pushing us towards a further devolution of central powers. London, in particular, would surely be able to make a compelling case for localised revenue raising—particularly if Scotland becomes ever more autonomous. Meanwhile, the enormous and growing pressure on London’s housing supply will lead to an ever stronger case being made for the money raised in the capital from its prime housing stock to be retained in the city for the provision of affordable housing.
Politically, there is a compelling case to make. Residents in prime central houses are paying about a third of what they were paying in rates, compared with even the 1980s, while the burden for those further down the scale has increased proportionally. Reformers should take up this opportunity with relish. However, the proposal will work only if the additional ring-fenced income is disregarded by central Government when determining a local authority’s funding stream, to prevent councils from being financially disadvantaged by the use of the proposed new bands. That could be achieved through a relatively minor revision to the Government’s annual tax base return—CTB1—to show that each local authority’s tax base calculation for bands H, I and J are along the lines I have proposed and are based on the existing 18/9 band H ratio. That would ensure that the local authority funding streams calculated using the CTB1 tax base data remain unaffected. It would be a relatively straightforward change, as far as the Minister’s Department is concerned.
Although my proposal avoids the complexity of a fully fledged revaluation, it should nevertheless be noted that such complexity is fast reducing with the rise of online property sites, which are able to provide pretty accurate historical and current market assessments. Would it really be that difficult to establish a system of self-assessment, such as the one in France, where there is a wealth tax whereby the worth of the equity of a property is submitted on an annual basis and can be challenged by the town hall if it is thought not to be an accurate assessment of market value?
My party must never give in to the politics of envy and to class war rhetoric, but the wide support for a mansion tax among some fair-minded people is, in part, a reflection of a collective failure to grasp the nettle by comprehensively reviewing property taxes. However, the mansion tax, as proposed by the other two main political parties in England, must not go ahead. It is mooted as fair—whatever that really means—but the real, practical concerns of people in my constituency are simply disregarded as the bleating of the cosseted rich, despite its threatening to ruin many. That applies to Wimbledon as much as it does to the Cities of London and Westminster. My hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) and I are used to heartfelt pleas from elderly constituents, many of whom are sickened with worry about this matter.
The time is ripe to tackle the outdated system of council tax in a way that is fairer and allows for genuine local discretion. Incremental targeting of the highest-value properties could be accompanied by a new localised council tax support scheme that would allow specific instances of individual hardship to be addressed.
It is widely reported that our capital city may just have equalled its peak population, and it is anticipated that 100,000 people per year will be added to this great metropolis. The capital urgently needs more housing of all types, but particularly more affordable housing. If the money from London’s additional council tax bands were to be reinvested directly into the communities whence it came, we could begin to provide the homes that the next generation of Londoners desperately needs. I implore the Minister to look in detail at these issues so the electorate can be presented with a real choice on these matters on 7 May.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Kris Hopkins)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I welcome the constructive input of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) and his fresh perspective on the topic of council tax. It is clear that a lot of work has gone into developing his ideas, and I commend him for his thoughtful approach. I also commend the London borough of Westminster for having kept council tax levels at the same rate for the past four years. The banding system is set nationally, but council tax levels are set locally, and Westminster’s approach has helped to keep living costs down for hard-working residents.
There are many matters about which my right hon. Friend and I agree. We agree that a mansion tax is not the answer, whatever the question. It would be complex to introduce, involve the re-evaluation of many homes and raise fairness issues about the ability of those liable to pay the tax. We have no intention of introducing a mansion tax.
My right hon. Friend and I also agree about the importance of affordable homes, which is why, despite the fiscal constraints, we have secured capital resources for affordable housing. Almost 217,000 affordable homes have been delivered in England since April 2010. Our affordable homes programme is on track to deliver another 170,000 affordable homes between 2011 and 2015. More than 144,000 homes have already been delivered under the programme.
The Government are now seeking to accelerate the increase in the number of affordable homes. By the end of the next Parliament, we should see 275,000 additional affordable homes built with £38 billion of public and private investment. That means that we will have built more new affordable homes than during the equivalent period in the past 20 years. We have introduced a range of measures to get Britain building again, to fix the broken housing market and to help hard-working people get the homes they want.
We recognise that the process of devolution is positive and necessary, with regard to local government finance. Indeed, the Government have devolved significant responsibility to local authorities, and the reforms are still bedding in. The affordable homes programme, which the Mayor has undertaken, comes with £1 billion of devolved money. There is a real commitment to work with boroughs and councils in London to deliver that package of housing.
My right hon. Friend and I also agree that the re-evaluation process is expensive and complex. However, we differ in that the Government do not support the introduction of a higher council tax band. Council tax is not a wealth tax but a charge for the use of local services. The current banding system reflects the fact that larger homes make a slightly greater use of local services, but it is intentionally not a poll tax or a domestic tax.
Mark Field
I accept that Westminster is relatively exceptional, but the £320,000 limit means that more than half the properties are in the same band, which suggests that the banding system is not working well. Although Westminster is an exception in that regard, I suspect that it is not the only area in London or the south-east in which a significantly disproportionate number of properties are in either of the top two bands.
Kris Hopkins
I recognise the tensions associated with this, but as a former Housing Minister, I have to respond to the idea of taxing people who live in certain houses. As both my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) have pointed out, the fact that a person lives in a particular house may not mean that they are cash-rich as a consequence. A set of circumstances may have led to their owning the house, and simply placing a greater tax burden on those individuals does not necessarily produce more affordable homes.
Stephen Hammond
Will the Minister follow that line of logic? Even if he is not prepared to accept part of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) said, perhaps he will be prepared to look at the structure of banding regionally, to give a greater reflection of the differentials in house prices in different parts of the country. The current band structure clearly cannot reflect that, so the case for regional banding becomes even stronger.
Kris Hopkins
I respect my hon. Friend’s comments, but as a Conservative who has had many conversations about the word “regional”, I can tell him that that word does not sit comfortably in the Department at this time. I assure him that we will not be having a “regional” conversation about taxation.
The Government have already taken strong action against owners of high-value property who seek to avoid paying their fair share of tax. We have introduced a number of measures, including the 15% rate of stamp duty land tax, the annual tax on enveloped dwellings, and the extensions to capital gains tax, which target those individuals who “envelope” residential properties by owning or purchasing them through certain non-natural persons, such as companies. Those measures are proving effective. For instance, in its first year of operation—2013-14—the annual tax on enveloped dwellings raised about five times more than the original £20 million forecast. It is expected to raise £110 million in 2014-15.
Two important phrases came out of what my right hon. Friend and hon. Friend said: the “politics of envy” and the “class warfare” element. Both the measures that we have introduced to pursue the individuals who are avoiding tax are about making sure that people who have money and should pay tax do so. That argument is different from the one that the Labour party is making, which instils the politics of envy and class warfare against those who have achieved, rather than supporting those who are ambitious and seek to be successful in life. That is at our root as Conservatives: we will support the individual who wants to aspire to own something, rather than punishing somebody who has achieved those goals and ambitions.
The admirable achievements of successful local authorities, such as that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster, demonstrate the effectiveness of the current council tax system. We believe that the implementation of higher bands would unbalance that system and alter the key principles of council tax, which, after all, is not a wealth tax. Extra revenue has been raised, however, by the taxes placed and targeted on owners of high-value property who seek to avoid paying their share of tax, as I have said. Furthermore, our innovative measures and programmes and a range of products that will meet a range of housing needs, with support from councils, housing associations and the private sector, will continue to deliver and build on the affordable homes programme.
My right hon. Friend raised the issue of foreign investment, and I appreciate that a significant number of people come to this great international city and invest. They have done so for many years, but sometimes people can distort the sort of comments that he made. In my time as Housing Minister, I saw many acres of coverage discussing the issue in many supplements. We should recognise that we are open-minded about people wanting to come to this city and invest in our infrastructure and housing.
Mark Field
Before the Minister concludes, I would like to put it on the record that I very much support the free movement of capital; it is a positive thing, broadly, for London and for the UK as a whole. That said, there has been controversy about the so-called dark lights in large bits of Kensington, Knightsbridge and Belgravia, although I think that is exaggerated to some extent. Quite a lot of the properties that are purchased are rented out to UK nationals or other London residents. A big sea change would be needed if we were somehow to discourage the free movement of capital, and although that might open up matters a bit in the London property market, it could have a very detrimental effect on much of the rest of the British economy.
Kris Hopkins
I completely recognise the huge support for inward investment in the country that my right hon. Friend has promoted and encouraged, and he will continue to, I am sure.
We should put on the record the fact that in 2013, the Bank of England estimated that foreign buyers represented some 3% of the total residential property transactions in London. Savills said, again in 2013, that the current level of sales to overseas buyers is the same proportionately now as it was in 1990. It is important to put things in context, so that individuals do not race away with another idea that some of the issues associated with affordable housing are about foreign people coming to our country. Foreign people are coming to our country and investing in our infrastructure and our housing.
In conclusion, I genuinely appreciate the time taken on this issue by my right hon. Friend and hon. Friend. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster will make representations to other parts of Government about his ideas. I reassure him that, from my time as Housing Minister I know that the Mayor of London takes the issue of affordable housing extremely seriously. I am sure that through working with partners such as Westminster and through the leadership that my right hon. Friend has taken on this issue, we can begin to address this need—and there is a huge need—for both affordable and private sector quality houses for the people of London.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Statements
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Companies House: Public Targets
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew Hancock)
I have set Companies House the following targets for the year 2015-16:
Public Targets
Digital
To achieve an average electronic filing target of 85% (received and accepted) by the end of the year.
Customer
Achieve an overall satisfaction score of more than 88% in the Companies House satisfaction survey.
Efficiency
To reduce the average cost per company, adjusted for inflation and excluding exceptional items, by 10% in 2015-16.
Compliance
To achieve a monthly compliance rate of 94% for accounts submitted to Companies House. To achieve a monthly compliance rate of 77% for annual returns submitted to Companies House.
Service availability
Our online services are available 99.9% of the time.
[HCWS453]
Adult Vocational Education
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
The Government are today launching the consultation document––“A Dual Mandate for Adult Vocational Education”. A copy will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
This builds on our reform programme to date and explores some of the key issues that will ensure our vocational education system is able to meet the major skills challenges that will face this country over the next five years and beyond.
The issues raised in the document imply important changes for how we think about further education for adults. The further education sector covers a wider range of learners than either schools or higher education. It ranges from basic literacy, numeracy and elementary social skills at a level that would be taught in a primary reception class or even pre-school through to degree level technical education.
The primary focus of the document is on how we can strengthen higher level vocational education in this country. This is defined as education which goes above what should be achieved in compulsory education, but will often not involve a full-time academic degree. This is an area where England has had a historic weakness and where we continue to lag behind the performance of other developed countries.
The Government have started work to reverse these long-term issues: notably by supporting National Colleges as specialist institutions for areas including digital skills, the nuclear industry, high speed rail, and advanced manufacturing techniques; and by introducing high level apprenticeships as a parallel route to full-time higher education in order to provide more choice for learners and increase business engagement. But there is more to do, and sustained action by Government, businesses, and educational institutions will be necessary if we are to succeed.
This second part of the mandate is also important. Further education provides a vital lifeline to those, often in the most disadvantaged circumstances, who reached adulthood without the basic skills they need for the workplace or for modern life. We have set out how we improved the delivery of basic skills and community learning by allowing greater flexibility for providers to tailor services to the needs of users and to innovate by encouraging the development of a more diverse supplier base.
The final section of the document looks at the implications for providers of adult further education, particularly further education colleges. It sets out two key trends that the Government forecast will continue over the rest of this decade and beyond. First, reductions in public funds for skills are unlikely to be reversed, and resource allocation will increasingly be contestable. Secondly, effective delivery will increasingly require greater specialisation.
The Government have supported a shift to greater influence and control over skills at the local level. The logic for such an approach is strong: adult further education essentially serves local labour market needs. The document therefore explores how greater influence at the local level, as signalled by city deals and the devolution agreements with Manchester and Sheffield may be further strengthened and extended in future years.
The consultation period runs until 16 June 2015.
[HCWS457]
Public Data Principles
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
I am laying the “Report on departmental open data commitments and adherence to public data principles for the period between April and June 2014”.
The report is released on a quarterly basis and details progress against our commitment to open up Government data.
[HCWS454]
Security and Intelligence Agencies: Contingencies Fund Advance
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
My statement of 17 March informed Parliament of the intention to access £66,800,000 from the contingency fund pending parliamentary approval of the supply estimates 2014-15. Royal Assent of the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill has been further delayed therefore the Security and Intelligence Agencies are seeking an additional advance of £42,900,000.
As the Security and Intelligence Agencies are non-ministerial departments, I am making this statement on behalf of their Accounting Officer, to ensure that Parliament is informed of this advance from the Contingencies Fund.
[HCWS455]
ECOFIN
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held in Brussels on 10 March 2015. Ministers discussed the following items:
Investment plan for Europe
The Council agreed a general approach on the proposal on the European Fund for Strategic Investments (EFSI). This will allow the presidency, on behalf of the Council, to start negotiations with the European Parliament.
Current legislative proposals
The presidency updated delegations on the state of play of legislative proposals in the field of financial services.
Implementation of the banking union
The Commission informed delegations on the state of play on banking union implementation, providing updates on the bank recovery and resolution directive (BRRD) implementation and the ratification of the intergovernmental agreement (IGA) on the single resolution fund (SRF).
European semester: Country reports
The Commission presented the 27 “Country Reports” published in February.
Implementation of the stability and growth pact
The Commission set out the main conclusions of the country report and in depth review exercise as they related to the stability and growth pact (SGP). The Council adopted, through a vote by Eurozone member states, a recommendation under the excessive deficit procedure (EDP) for France to correct its deficit by 2017.
Other business
ECOFIN had a short exchange of views regarding the fight against tax avoidance, in relation to the presidency “Road Map” on fighting base erosion and profit shifting.
[HCWS466]
Finance Bill
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
The Government are today publishing Finance Bill 2015.
In December 2014, the Government published over 250 pages of draft Finance Bill 2015 legislation for technical consultation, meeting their commitment to publish the majority of Finance Bill clauses in draft at least three months ahead of introduction. The final legislation reflects comments received during the consultation process.
The Government have subsequently decided to defer a number of measures previously announced for Finance Bill 2015 to a future Finance Bill, in recognition of the accelerated parliamentary process that the Bill will be subject to. At the same time, a number of priority measures announced at Budget 2015 will be included in the Bill. The detail of these changes is set out in the “Overview of Tax Legislation and Rates”, published on 18 March:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/finance-bill-2015-overview-documents-at-budget-2015
In addition, a number of clauses which had been intended for Finance Bill 2015 have been deferred as a result of discussions with the Opposition in the context of the end-of-Parliament wash up process. These clauses concern:
A new tax exemption for travel expenses of members of local authorities (announced July 2014);
A new statutory exemption from income tax for trivial benefits in kind, implementing a recommendation of the Office of Tax Simplification’s review of employee benefits and expenses (announced at Budget 2014);
Simplifying link company requirements for consortium claims under corporation tax (announced autumn statement 2014);
Changes to scheme rules for the Enterprise Investment Scheme and Venture Capital Trusts (announced at Budget 2015)—on which draft legislation is being published today and which are subject to EU State aid approval; and
A separate rate of excise duty for aqua methanol (announced at Budget 2014).
The Government intend that measures deferred to a future Bill will be legislated at the earliest opportunity in the new Parliament.
[HCWS467]
Analogue Commercial Radio Licence Renewals
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy (Mr Edward Vaizey)
The UK has a rich and thriving commercial radio sector, providing a wide range of programmes that appeal to a variety of different tastes. Commercial radio plays a key role in the provision of national, international and local news, delivering large amounts of locally produced and relevant content, and providing a dynamic platform for the UK’s world leading music and entertainment industries.
A key part of supporting commercial radio is the need to create and maintain a stable regulatory framework that fully supports continued investment by commercial radio in the face of increased competition for audiences and changes in patterns of media consumption.
In December 2013, the Government concluded that it was not the right time to commit to a future radio switchover or set a firm or indicative timetable for such a move. This remains the Government’s view. However, the Government fully support the transition to digital radio and have provided up to £7.75 million to fund the expansion of local digital radio coverage to approach commercial FM coverage by September 2016. An effect of the Government’s decision in December 2013 was that the licences which were renewed for seven years under the provisions of the Broadcasting Act 1990—as amended by the Digital Economy Act 2010 Act—will begin to expire from 2017, before a switchover is possible, and leaving around 60 licences facing expiration.
In November 2014, the Government therefore consulted on whether the current legislation should be amended to allow further renewal of existing analogue commercial radio licences without re-advertising the affected licences. Our consultation found that there is widespread support for renewal of the affected licences. Although some respondents considered that the sector and listeners could potentially benefit from re-advertisement of these licences, Government have concluded that the benefits of allowing further renewals outweigh any potential benefits of stations re-competing for licences.
For this reason, the Government believe it is appropriate to give Ofcom the ability to further renew national and local analogue commercial radio licences under sections 103B (which covers national licences) and 104AA (which covers local licences) of the Broadcasting Act 1990 for a further period of five years. We believe a renewal period of this length will drive momentum in the continued transition to digital radio, and provide commercial radio with the stability it needs to support this transition.
The Government therefore intend to lay a Legislative Reform Order in Parliament as soon as possible to bring forward this change.
The Government are also today publishing their response to the consultation, alongside the full impact assessment and findings of an independent study carried out by value partners into the advantages and disadvantages of the proposals on which we consulted.
We believe this important change will continue to support the whole of commercial radio and provide the necessary stability for the sector as a whole as it moves towards a digital future.
[HCWS465]
Logistics Commodities and Services Transformation Programme
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Dunne)
On 23 February 2015, in a ministerial written statement, I informed the House that Leidos had been selected as the preferred bidder for a transformation programme within Logistic Commodities and Services (LCS), part of Defence Equipment and Support.
Contractual negotiations have now been completed, and I am pleased to announce that the Ministry of Defence will shortly be signing a 13-year contract with Leidos to run the procurement and inventory management of commodity items and the storage and distribution elements of LCS. The transformation programme is expected to deliver financial savings of around £0.5 billion over the life of the contract and involve the TUPE transfer of some 1,250 staff. It will bring defence logistics up to the standard of industry best practice, deliver more efficient and effective processes across the supply chain and enhance the quality of support provided to our armed forces.
LCS staff are based at a number of MOD sites across the United Kingdom, but the bulk of the current LCS storage activity in the UK is located at LCS Bicester in Oxfordshire and LCS Donnington in Shropshire. The majority of procurement and inventory management of commodity items is currently undertaken at Abbey Wood, Bristol. It is of course early days and I cannot be definitive on the impact on jobs; it is a matter for Leidos, ultimately, to determine the number of staff necessary to undertake the work. What I can say is we do not foresee any site closures as a direct result of LCS(T).
Team Leidos is a skilled and experienced team of private sector defence and logistic specialist partners with the global expertise to deliver the transformation required. The programme represents a significant financial investment in new facilities—including the investment of around £90 million in the construction of a new defence fulfilment centre next to the existing LCS site at Donnington in Shropshire—and a further £40 million investment in new IT systems to provide the modern and efficient services that the UK armed forces need.
[HCWS473]
Welfare and Duty of Care in Armed Forces Initial Training: Ofsted Report
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Soubry)
Today Ofsted publish their eighth report on welfare and duty of care in armed forces initial training, copies of which I have placed in the Library of the House. Following inspections of eight armed forces initial training establishments between September 2014 and January 2015, Ofsted report that recruits and trainees feel safe and that their welfare needs are being broadly met.
The report is, largely, a positive one and emphasises the improvement in many aspects of welfare and duty of care in the establishments inspected; indeed all the locations assessed by Ofsted were judged as “good” or better, and two, in particular, were rated as “outstanding”. In a change from previous years Ofsted conducted, for the first time, an ungraded monitoring visit to review the arrangements for welfare and duty of care of phase 1 reserve recruits. This reflects the growing importance of the reserves within the armed forces as a whole and paves the way for further Ofsted involvement with reserve forces training in future years.
In another development this year, Ofsted conducted visits to each of the Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Force training headquarters. These visits, which did not result in graded judgements, identified strengths in the provision of support and strategic direction for training, as well as identifying specific areas for development and improvement.
Ofsted make a number of recommendations for improvement, particularly in the areas of instructor selection and qualification, site infrastructure and information and data management and analysis.
The armed forces remain committed to ensuring that initial training is supportive of the needs of its recruits, cadets and trainees and this year’s Ofsted report provides assurance and recommendations to maintain our commitment to a culture of continuous improvement.
[HCWS463]
Service Complains Commissioner: Annual Report
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Soubry)
I am pleased to lay before Parliament today the Service Complaints Commissioner’s annual report for 2014 on the fairness, effectiveness and efficiency of the service complaints system.
This is the first report to be published by Nicola Williams as the Service Complaints Commissioner, and covers the work of her office in 2014 under the leadership of her predecessor Dr Susan Atkins. I would like to take this opportunity to echo her praise for the work done by Dr Atkins during her time in post.
The report details those areas where further work is required to make improvements to the way complaints are handled, while also recognising the good work that the services have undertaken during 2014 and the changes that they have made to the way they manage complaints. The continuous improvement approach that the services have adopted since the complaints system was introduced in 2008 has, year on year, delivered significant changes to how complaints are managed by all those involved in the process. These changes, and those proposed by the Armed Forces (Service Complaints and Financial Assistance) Bill will make the process shorter and quicker, while also strengthening oversight and accountability through the powers of the new Service Complaints Ombudsman.
The findings of the report and the recommendations made are now being considered in detail. A formal response to the Commissioner will follow when that work is complete.
[HCWS472]
Independent Medical Expert Group: Triennial Review
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Soubry)
I am today announcing the start of the triennial review of the Independent Medical Expert Group. Triennial reviews are part of the Government’s commitment to ensuring that non-departmental public bodies continue to have regular independent challenge.
The review will examine whether there is a continuing need for the Independent Medical Expert Group’s function and its form, and whether it should continue to exist at arm’s length from Government. Should the review conclude there is a continuing need for the body, it will go on to examine whether the body’s control and governance arrangements continue to meet the recognised principles of good corporate governance.
The House will be informed of the outcome of the review, which is expected to be completed in the summer.
[HCWS469]
Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees: Triennial Review
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Soubry)
The Ministry of Defence is required to review their non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) at least once every three years to ensure that they have regular independent challenge. I am today announcing the review to examine whether there is a continuing need for the function provided by the Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees
The review will be conducted in two stages. The first stage will examine the key functions of the VAPCs. If the outcome of this stage is that delivery should continue, the second stage of the review will ensure that the body is operating in line with the recognised principles of good corporate governance.
I will inform the House of the outcome of the review in the summer when it is completed.
[HCWS468]
International Investments
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)
Further to the statement made on 11 June 2014 by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, I would like to inform Parliament that we have agreed, along with the Secretary of State for International Development, to pursue a new pilot joint venture with the UK Green Investment Bank (GIB) to assist in investment of the UK’s international climate fund (ICF).
GIB has been very successful in mobilising private sector investment into the UK’s green infrastructure and economy—since its official launch in autumn 2012, GIB has invested in 42 projects and committed £1.8 billion of capital, which will deliver £6.6 billion of new infrastructure investment. The projects supported by GIB will, when complete, save 3.7 million tonnes of CO2 per year. At the same time, the Government have ambitious targets for providing support to projects in developing countries that will mitigate climate change or enable communities to adapt to its effects. Developed countries have committed to jointly mobilising US$100 billion of climate finance a year by 2020 for developing countries, from both public and private sources. The UK is playing its part; we have already allocated £3.87 billion to the UK’s ICF to finance such projects. This also contributes to the Government’s 0.7% of GNI aid commitment. Unmitigated climate change will hit the poorest first and hardest.
It is vital that we use public climate finance to catalyse private investment into developing countries. By working with the Green Investment Bank, DECC will be able to draw on its unique mix of investment expertise, commercial discipline and close alignment of green policy objectives to maximise the impact and effectiveness of UK climate finance.
We intend to commit £200 million of UK climate finance in the pilot over three years, to invest in renewable energy and energy efficiency projects in developing countries; supporting economic growth, job creation, and development of reliable energy infrastructure. In doing so the pilot aims to demonstrate the commercial viability of low carbon investment and crowding-in of private investment in addition to delivering significant emissions reductions. This will complement the existing portfolio of ICF investments, which work through multilateral development partners, such as the World Bank, as well as direct support to programmes developed and delivered in countries.
This new venture will have no impact on the resources or capital of £3.8 billion which we have allocated to GIB for investment in the UK. GIB remains fully committed to helping the UK meet its domestic climate change goals. Indeed, this additional activity should benefit GIB’s core UK operations as GIB further builds its global reputation both as an expert in green finance and as a fund manager.
The UK’s financial services industry is world renowned, as is our leadership in tackling climate change, and this vehicle brings together these two strengths in a partnership that will enhance the UK’s reputation globally.
[HCWS462]
Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Council
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs attended the Foreign Affairs Council on 16 March in Brussels. The Foreign Affairs Council was chaired by the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Federica Mogherini.
Dimitris Avromopoulos, Commissioner for Migration, Home Affairs and Citizenship, was in attendance for the working lunch at the FAC on migration. The General Affairs Council was chaired by the Latvian presidency. The meetings were held in Brussels.
Foreign Affairs Council
A provisional report of the meeting and conclusions adopted can be found at:
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/fac/2015/03/16/
Africa
Ministers held an in depth strategic discussion on EU relations with Africa, covering peace, prosperity and partnership with regional African organisations. Ms Mogherini highlighted the opportunities Africa offered to the EU and was keen to emphasise that there was a story of progress, growth, and economic opportunity. The Foreign Secretary highlighted the need to focus on both challenges and opportunities, highlighting the contribution Africa could make to an EU energy strategy. He also highlighted the economic benefits that could flow from reform, with the prospect of greater inward investment for those countries that provided good governance and stability.
The Council adopted conclusions on Ebola, noting the scope for the EU and its member states to keep playing a leading role in supporting co-operation in the affected region to end Ebola and ensuring it did not resurge. The Council also adopted conclusions on the Gulf of Guinea action plan, and Mali.
Libya
Ministers discussed the situation in Libya and possibilities for EU support in the event of a positive outcome of the UN-led peace talks. Ms. Mogherini stressed the need for urgent consideration of possible EU support once a National Unity Government was established. The Foreign Secretary agreed that the EU needed to be prepared to respond swiftly to the different scenarios, and set out the importance of focusing on the twin-tracks of the political process and counter-terrorism. He also highlighted the need for the EU to focus on working with international partners to stem the flow of irregular migrants and weapons from Libya, and ensuring that Libya’s financial assets were safeguarded for the benefit of all Libyans. Other member states emphasised concerns over the humanitarian situation, irregular migration flows, energy instability and the rise of extremists. Ministers called on the high representative to prepare policy options, including on possible CSDP activities, ahead of the April FAC. The Commission was also invited to develop a comprehensive strategy for Libya, taking into account the regional context.
Migration
Over lunch, ministers explored how EU foreign policy could contribute to comprehensively tackling Europe’s migration challenges. The debate will feed into the preparation of more concrete proposals for decision at one of the next Foreign Affairs Councils.
Eastern Partnership
The FAC discussed preparations for the fourth Eastern Partnership summit in Riga on 21 and 22 May 2015. The summit, chaired by European Council President Donald Tusk, will bring EU heads of state or Government together with those of Eastern partner countries. A meeting between EU Foreign Ministers and their counterparts from the Eastern Partnership countries is scheduled to take place in the margins of the Foreign Affairs Council in April.
Other business
Hungary raised the situation of Christians in Iraq and passed on a request from the Chaldean Archbishop of Erbil for humanitarian assistance. Luxembourg raised Israel’s withholding of tax receipts from the Palestinian Authority.
Ministers agreed without discussion a number of other measures:
The Council adopted conclusions on the EU regional strategy for Syria and Iraq as well as the ISIL/Da’esh threat
The Council welcomed the political agreement to conclude the Bosnia-Herzegovina SAA
The Council approved the EU position for the EU-Ukraine Association Council: The EU agreed the EU-Ukraine Co-operation Council would adopt the EU-Ukraine association agenda
The Council established the EU position for the first meeting of the EU-Moldova Association Council, to take place on 16 March 2015 in Brussels
The Council adopted the EU position for the 11th meeting of the EU-Tunisia Association Council, which will be held on 17 March 2015 in Brussels
The Council authorised the EU to approve the implementation of the EU-Tunisia action plan at the EU-Tunisia Association Council
The Council extended the mandates of two EU special representatives until 31 October 2015:
1. EU Special Representative for the Horn of Africa, Mr Alexander Rondos. A budget of €1.77 million was allocated to him for the period between 1 March 2015 and 31 October 2015.
2. EU Special Representative for the Sahel, Mr Michal Reveyrand-de Menthon. €900.000 has been set aside for his activities during the period between 1 March 2015 and 31 October 2015.
The Council authorised the opening of negotiations for an agreement on co-operation between the United Nations and the European Union in crisis management operations
The Council extended the mandate of the EU military mission to contribute to the training of Somali security forces
The Council launched the EU military advisory mission in the Central African Republic
The Commission pledged €1 million to Vanuatu in the wake of Cyclone Pam.
General Affairs Council
A provisional report of the meeting and conclusions adopted can be found at:
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/gac/2015/03/17/
The General Affairs Council (GAC) on 17 March focused on: preparation of the European Council on 19 and 20 March 2015; and the European semester 2015.
Preparation of the March European Council
The GAC prepared the 19 and 20 March European Council, which the Prime Minister attended. The March European Council agenda covered: energy union, including energy security; the internal market and climate security; economic issues including the annual European semester process; and external relations issues, including Ukraine, Libya and the Eastern Partnership summit to be held in Latvia in May.
On energy union I emphasised the importance of having the right governance system in place. Member states must have flexibility to decarbonise in the most efficient way by choosing their own energy mix and the EU must not impose unnecessary burdens, as was recognised at the 2014 October European Council. I also welcomed the commitment to a technology and innovation strategy, but as set out in the Commission’s communication, this should cover the full range of emerging technologies.
On economic issues, I supported the goal of concluding negotiations on an ambitious, comprehensive and mutually beneficial TTIP agreement by the end of the year. I also emphasised the need to pursue the better regulation agenda and reduce regulatory burdens, especially for SMEs.
European semester 2015
The GAC noted the presidency synthesis report and updated road map for the 2015 European semester for further discussion at the March European Council.
Any other business
Under any other business, the presidency briefed the Council on a letter it had received from the Icelandic Minister for Foreign Affairs outlining the intentions of the Government of Iceland in relation to their application to join the EU.
[HCWS460]
British Indian Ocean Territory: Resettlement
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (James Duddridge)
My right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, Mr Hugo Swire, informed the House on 10 February 2015 of the next steps in the Government’s review of its resettlement policy in the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT), following completion, on schedule, of an independent feasibility study. The study found there was not a clear indication of likely demand for resettlement, and costs and liabilities to the UK taxpayer were uncertain and potentially significant. Ministers have now agreed that further work should proceed to address these fundamental uncertainties to a point that a decision on the way ahead is possible.
[HCWS461]
Passport Office: Annual Report
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Brokenshire)
The annual report and accounts for Her Majesty’s Passport Office has been laid before the House today.
On 26 September 2014, the Home Secretary announced that Her Majesty’s Passport Office would cease to operate as a separate agency and would be absorbed into the Home Office on 30 September. These accounts cover the period from 1 April to 30 September 2014 only.
Copies of the report are available from the Vote Office.
[HCWS470]
National DNA Database: Ethics Group Annual Report
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Karen Bradley)
My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) has today made the following written ministerial statement:
I am pleased to announce the publication of the 7th annual report of the National DNA Database Ethics Group on 24 March 2015. The group was established on 25 July 2007 to provide Ministers with independent ethical advice on the operation and practice of the National DNA database.
I welcome the recommendations made within the report including the need to ensure rigour across DNA methodologies to minimise the risk of error and contamination and the importance of sharing DNA information internationally in order to assist in the apprehension of those that commit crimes across national borders.
The Ethics Group’s annual report can be viewed on the website of the National DNA Database Ethics Group and I am arranging for a copy to be placed in the Library the House.
[HCWS471]
Crossrail 2 Safeguarding Consultation Response
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
I am today publishing a response document summarising the views given during the consultation on updating the safeguarding direction for the proposed Crossrail 2 rail project, and providing the Government’s response.
The Government have considered the responses to the consultation carefully, and the Secretary of State has decided to issue the safeguarding direction with changes at Wimbledon, Wandsworth Common, Angel and Soho Square. The updated direction will come into effect from today.
Crossrail 2 is a proposed new rail line across Central London, running from New Southgate and Tottenham Hale in the north-east to Wimbledon in the south-west. The route passes through the City of Westminster, the London boroughs of Barnet, Camden, Enfield, Hackney, Haringey, Islington, Merton, and Wandsworth, and the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea.
Safeguarding is the first stage in the planning process. It enables the Secretary of State for Transport to issue a direction to local planning authorities to protect land needed for long-term infrastructure projects. Safeguarding does not necessarily prevent other developments from taking place, but it ensures that when they do take place the design can accommodate the planned infrastructure.
The response document will be made available on the Department for Transport website. Copies of the response document, the direction, guidance and associated maps have been made available in the Libraries of both Houses.
[HCWS458]
Budapest Convention on Contract for Carriage of Goods by Inland Waterways
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John Hayes)
The Government have decided to opt in to the proposed Council decision authorising Austria, Belgium and Poland to ratify, or to accede to, the Budapest convention on the contract for the carriage of goods by inland waterways (CMNI).
The Budapest convention was adopted by the diplomatic conference organised jointly by the Central Commission for the Navigation of the Rhine and the Danube Commission in collaboration with the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe. It entered into force on 1 April 2005, and is intended to harmonise contractual and navigational standards on inland waterways in European countries. The UK is not a contracting party to the Budapest convention.
The convention is intended to harmonize contractual and navigational standards on inland waterways in European countries. Article 29 of the Budapest convention contains provisions on the choice of law by the parties to a contract of carriage falling under the convention. Those provisions affect the rules laid down in the Rome I regulation, which came into force on 24 July 2008 and applies in situations involving a conflict of laws and to contractual obligations in civil and commercial matters.
Austria and Poland have on several occasions expressed their interest in becoming parties to the convention. Although Belgium ratified the Budapest convention on 5 August 2008, it was after the adoption and entry into force of regulation (EC) 593/2008—the Rome I regulation—on the law applicable to contractual obligations within the EU. Therefore, the Budapest convention falls partly under exclusive European Union competence, because of its relationship with the EU regulation and any member state wishing to join the Budapest convention is first required to obtain Union authorisation to do so. The proposal is therefore also addressed to Belgium, in order to ensure Union authorisation and to rectify the currently unlawful situation.
The proposal has been published with a legal base falling within title V of part 3 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union (TFEU)—justice and home affairs (JHA) matters. The EU currently has competency in this matter; the Government also maintain that the UK is still entitled to use its opt-in under protocol 21 of the treaty and in negotiations the Government will continue to seek amendments to the wording of the relevant recital of the proposed decision to reflect this. If the Government are unable to succeed, we will revert to laying a minute statement to underline the UK’s position.
The UK is not a party to the Budapest convention and has no cross-border exchange of goods within EU inland waterways. The UK has previously indicated, as has the Republic of Ireland, that there is no commercial carriage of goods by inland waterways between the two and so there is no impact on the UK. Nonetheless, it is clearly an important legal instrument for those member states that do have cross-border exchange of goods within EU inland waterways, since it provides a mechanism for resolving conflicts of law in relation to the contracts associated with the carriage of goods.
Since the provisions are not expected to have any impact on UK businesses or operations involving contracts for the carriage of goods by inland waterways, and there are no effects on relations with the three member states seeking authorisation, the Government have chosen to opt in.
[HCWS459]
Employment Support
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Disabled People (Mr Mark Harper)
Today I am pleased to announce the outcome of the recent commercial procurement exercise to select providers for the new specialist employability support contracts, the new provision which replaces the residential training college contracts.
Funding will be maintained at the current level, but will help more than double the current number of disabled people and comprehensively improve the geographic availability and accessibility of intensive support.
Specialist employability support is an innovative new programme that will focus on helping those disabled people who need the most support either to enter work or to move closer to the labour market and engage in further employment related courses or activities.
Specialist employability support will offer intensive, specialist support to disabled people, provided by a network of more than 70 specialist organisations throughout the country.
This new provision will ensure that high quality, intensive support is accessible to twice as many people than under current contracts, with the annual number of customers helped increasing from around 800 to up to 1,700. In addition, over the two years of the contract we anticipate that the new programme will deliver around 1,250 job outcomes, up to two thirds of which will lead to sustained employment in the open labour market.
The new programme is designed to forge stronger links with a range of other programmes and will bring together a variety of existing Work Choice and Work programme providers, many different specialist voluntary organisations and a number of condition-specific specialists.
Specialist employability support will be provided through six separate contracts, each providing national coverage to ensure that the customer group has the optimum choice of support.
Four will be “pan disability” contracts, meaning that support will be provided for people with a wide range of disabilities. Two will be specialist sensory impairment contracts; one focusing on people whose primary disability is a visual impairment, the other on supporting people whose primary disability is a hearing impairment.
The specialist employability support programme features two main types of support:
Specialist employability support—which consists of intensive, employability support provision, and;
Specialist employability support start back—which is a shorter term provision that will help to prepare disabled people for other support provided by DWP or other organisations. All six specialist employability support providers will offer both support options.
The six successful bidders were:
Pan disability
Shaw Trust
Remploy
Kennedy Scott
Steps to Employment
Visual impairment
Royal National College for the Blind
Hearing impairment
Doncaster Deaf Trust
The new provision will go live on 1 September 2015.
There was strong competition for each of the contracts on offer, with bids showing real innovation and flexibility. The majority of the current residential training colleges were involved in successful tenders to continue to provide support under the new provision.
DWP has consistently engaged with the existing contractors to prepare them for the tendering process and has developed a range of potential options to support the two residential training colleges currently offering DWP provision who will not be involved in delivery of the new provision.
[HCWS464]
Social Security Advisory Committee
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey)
My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Lord Freud, has made the following written statement:
Today, I will publish the outcome of the review of the Social Security Advisory Committee (SSAC). I am pleased to announce that the Government support the continuation of the committee in its current form. The Department for Work and Pensions has completed a robust examination of the committee’s functions, delivery arrangements and governance structure. The review was carried out in line with the Cabinet Office’s key principles for reviews of non-departmental public bodies (NDPB). The SSAC is a cost-effective advisory NDPB whose functions are integral to improving the quality of policy making and of secondary legislation in the Department for Work and Pensions. I attach a copy of the review report to this statement and will place a copy in the Library of the House.
[HCWS456]
House of Lords
Economy: Public Finances
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Vinson
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Deighton on 13 February (HL 4675), what plans they have to reduce the deficit and to make the public more aware of the effect on living standards of the United Kingdom’s debt servicing costs, which are currently £766 per annum per person or £1,841 per household.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, the Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts that this year the Government will cut the deficit in half as a percentage of GDP from its post-war peak in 2009-10. It is forecast to fall every following year, reaching a surplus in 2018-19. The Government set out in the Budget document that reducing debt as a share of GDP will help to control debt interest and reduce the burden of these costs on future generations.
Lord Vinson (Con)
I thank the Minister for his very sagacious reply. Does he agree that, if the public were more aware of our huge national indebtedness, they would be more receptive to the need to put it right? So when he is a Minister in the next Government, will he ensure that every effort is made to encourage the nation to save more, export more, import less and reduce subsidies generally, not least the £14 billion a year net that we give to the European Union, which should be treated as overseas aid?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his optimism about my future career prospects. I agree with what he says about savings in particular. That is why the Chancellor announced at the Budget a new personal savings allowance of up to £1,000 for basic rate taxpayers, more flexibility in the operation of ISAs and a new Help to Buy ISA for first-time homebuyers.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that Labour has today made a clear pledge to the British people that in government we will not raise the rate of VAT nor extend its coverage? Will the Minister, close as he is to the Chancellor, give a similar pledge to my party; or will the coalition parties follow the pattern of 2010, with the Liberals warning of a VAT tax bombshell and the Tories staying silent—and, in the weeks after, in coalition, increasing VAT from 17.5% to 20%?
Lord Newby
My Lords, any commitment by the Labour Party would have a lot more credibility if we had even the vaguest clue as to how it was going to get the deficit down.
Lord Bilimoria (CB)
Would the Minister agree that one reason for the credit crunch and the financial crisis seven years ago was the prolonged low rate of interest of 5% a year? Now that the Government have extortionate debt servicing costs at a 0.5% base rate, what plans do they have when interest rates go up, as they will? How will they service those costs, and at what rate are they borrowing for long-term debt at the moment?
Lord Newby
My Lords, one of the main reasons why we need to get debt under control is that the long-term borrowing costs are very significant. Whatever the interest rate, even with current low rates of interest, we are spending 2.5% of GDP per annum on servicing it, significantly more than we spend on the aid budget. Because interest rates are low and because we have a very credible economic policy, we have been able to borrow long term at low interest rates—but none the less we need to get the debt down because we want to get the borrowing costs down.
Lord Deben (Con)
Does my noble friend accept that the Government’s change of heart, which has meant that every taxpayer now has a proper breakdown of where their tax goes, is an enormous advantage? If you read it carefully, you see that the cost of our membership of the European Union is extremely small, very good value and that is where we should stay.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
In the interests of clarity, when the Minister refers to the Budget, is he referring to the George Osborne Budget or the Danny Alexander Budget?
The Earl of Listowel (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the public should also keep in mind the fact that nearly half of local government spending is on adult social care and the care of children, and that includes 14.63% on children? While local government has risen to the challenges to its funding over recent years, there is real concern that it cannot take much more.
Lord Newby
My Lords, the way in which we ensure that local government and all other aspects of government are funded effectively and appropriately is by having a very strong, thriving, sustainable economy. The fact that our growth rate is the highest among the G7, unemployment is down and employment is up, is the biggest long-term guarantor of a sustainable funding basis for local government and, indeed, all other forms of government expenditure.
Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Vinson, mentioned exports as if they were doing rather well. I do not think that they were mentioned in the Budget but does the Minister agree that our trade balance is a disaster, as is our productivity, which has not grown at all since 2010? Would not the Government be better served by looking at these fundamental factors in the real economy?
Lord Newby
My Lords, last month’s trade figures were the best for 15 years. No doubt the noble Lord would say that that is not good enough. However, we have spent more money more effectively through UKTI in building up our trade with less traditional countries such as China. Further support was given to that in the Budget.
Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)
My Lords, in 2010 the Government inherited £786 billion of debt. Five years later that figure is now £1,540 billion—almost double. The Chancellor in his Budget said that the Government were paying the debt down. Was he telling the truth?
Lord Newby
My Lords, it is no secret that this Government have borrowed over half a trillion pounds as we have slowly got to grips with the mess we inherited. Debt has come down by about 1% of GDP for each year we have been in government—the level of consolidation that the IMF says is most appropriate in these sorts of circumstances.
Arts: Concert Hall for London
Lord Campbell-Savours
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with those involved in the planning of the proposed new concert hall for London.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)
My Lords, the Government have spoken to a range of interested parties about the proposed new concert hall, including the Greater London Authority. The Chancellor recently announced £1 million of funding to support a feasibility study into the new concert hall, which will report back in the autumn. Work on the study is already under way.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
With Crossrail opening in 2018, thereby making access to central London far faster than on much of the London Tube network, instead of the Government sponsoring a feasibility study into yet another concert hall in London, why not build a new international concert hall on a site on the Crossrail route that is accessible to Heathrow and on land that is far cheaper than in central London? May I suggest building it in the Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead? Surely, the Home Counties deserve their share of major projects, following upon Crossrail?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, every major city in the world has a concert hall within the centre of the city. London and the United Kingdom are in need of a new concert hall in the capital city. The acoustics here are poorer than in all our competitors, and that is why the new hall is likely to be in central London.
Lord Naseby (Con)
Is my noble friend aware that the last five years have been halcyon years for music in London? One can look at who has been put forward for the Young Musician of the Year, the social policy of the Royal Opera House and all the events taking place in the parks of London. Are the Government not right to look at their policy and prepare properly to ensure that we have one of the best international concert halls in the world?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My noble friend is of course absolutely right. We need a concert hall that is comparable to those in Berlin, Vienna and Paris. The only way to get that is by re-examining this issue, which we are doing, along with Sir Simon Rattle, the GLA, the Barbican and the London Symphony Orchestra, so that we have a concert hall of international standing.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, I have some experience of superb acoustics, having sung in Australia’s most iconic building—the world heritage Sydney Opera House. I was a top tenor in the Hong Kong Welsh Male Voice Choir at the time. Might I invite the Minister to consider a joint project for a concert hall on the £18 billion Nine Elms Lane development around the American embassy and Battersea Power Station? There are plans for shopping malls and two new Tube stations, but the area risks being a cultural desert—although the developers claim that there will be a modest theatre and Damien Hirst is threatening the site with an art gallery. I declare an interest as a resident of Nine Elms Lane.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I am sorry to have missed my noble friend’s performance in Sydney. They are still talking about it down under. One reason why the site being looked at is in the City is the strong possibility of City sponsorship, which should not be ignored. However, I am sure that the feasibility study will look at matters in the round and consider my noble friend’s remarks.
Lord Aberdare (CB)
My Lords, I welcome the prospect of a new, state-of-the-art, large concert hall in London, not least because I went to a concert at the magnificent new Philharmonie in Paris last month. However, I question whether this is the best way to spend hundreds of millions of pounds promoting our musical culture. Will the Minister seek to ensure that the funding for any such hall comes primarily from private sources, and that public funds are focused on national initiatives such as the Government’s laudable national plan for music education, benefiting students and schools right across the country?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
The noble Lord is right to say that this is not an either/or question; it is important that we focus money on music education as well. We have been doing that with the music hubs, and that is an important part of the equation. Clearly, the feasibility study will look at all aspects but that will certainly include trying to lever in a significant amount of private money. However, I repeat that we need somewhere of national significance.
Lord Winston (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of the Royal College of Music. The Minister did not mention concert halls a bit closer to home in Birmingham and Manchester, which are world-class. It must surely be sensible to have an equivalent concert hall in the centre of London. At this stage of proceedings, it would be very helpful if he could give an indication of the likely cost of such a concert hall.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
The noble Lord is quite right: there are concert halls of great standing outside London. He mentioned two; there is also, of course, the Sage in Gateshead. That is why we need somewhere in the capital city that is comparable to those great centres. The feasibility study is, of course, to look at the cost; I am not in a position at this stage to give any indication of what that will be.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con)
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that when Prince Albert died, Queen Victoria asked Sir Henry Cole to handle the building of a memorial in a concert hall? He appointed a captain in the Royal Engineers, whose previous design achievement had been the creation of a portable bath for use on active service. When the captain died, Sir Henry asked the Queen whether she would be satisfied if he replaced the captain with another officer. The Queen said she was perfectly happy, but she thought perhaps it might be wiser if the rank was a major.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I was not aware of that, noble Lords will be surprised to hear. I thought my noble friend was going to talk about the Royal Albert Hall, in which case I would have said that we need to recapture that breadth of vision.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister might have sympathy with the view that has been expressed that there is not much point building a new, expensive concert hall in London if cuts mean that poor children cannot afford either music lessons or instruments. I would also like to ask the Minister whether the feasibility study will take into account the views of London’s many orchestras, including the several BBC orchestras, and not just the LSO.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
The noble Baroness is right to mention the importance of catering for disadvantaged children, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, as well. The point is that the music hubs are catering for disadvantaged children. If noble Lords look at Manchester and Coventry, that is exactly what is happening. I absolutely agree that we need to ensure that that is the case.
Defence: UK Territorial Waters
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Trefgarne
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they are satisfied with the present arrangements for detecting and shadowing non-NATO naval units which may enter the United Kingdom’s territorial waters without prior authority.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con)
My Lords, this Government take security of our maritime boundaries very seriously. Our Armed Forces have a multilayered submarine detection capability, using highly effective assets including frigates, submarines and anti-submarine helicopters, and maritime patrol aircraft support from NATO allies. We, in turn, often support them when they have capability shortfalls. It is routine for NATO allies to support each other in this way and demonstrates one of the benefits to the UK of NATO membership.
Lord Trefgarne (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. Is he really satisfied, though, with the maritime patrol aircraft arrangements that he described? Are those arrangements permanent, or does he have some better plans for the future?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, we have a robust range of measures for detecting and shadowing non-NATO vessels that may seek to enter our territorial waters without authority. We continue to develop new detection capabilities to maintain our operational advantage. SDSR 2015 will allow us to review the full spectrum of submarine detection capability, including maritime patrol aircraft. Meanwhile, RAF air crew are flying in allied MPA to retain the skills to regenerate the capability, should we decide to do so.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the National Maritime Information Centre, established by the last Government but funded since then by the current Government, gives very good situational awareness of our waters, but we need assets to track and monitor things. Normally we have three offshore patrol vessels; one is in the West Indies, filling in because we do not have enough destroyers and frigates. We have only one frigate in UK waters, acting as the fleet ready escort—only one, in a great maritime nation such as ours. That shortage of assets is bad.
My question, though, relates to the helicopters that he talked about. I asked two years ago, a year ago, and I ask again now: has the Merlin Mk2 incorporated fully the ASW capabilities of the MRA4 Nimrod? Each of the previous times the Minister said, “Yes we’re doing it, yes we’re doing it”. Have we done it?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, on the first part of his question, I agree with the noble Lord about the National Maritime Information Centre, but he will know that I cannot answer the second part of his question.
Lord Boyce (CB)
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord West, about the numbers of destroyers and frigates. The fact is that the size of our destroyer and frigate force is inadequate to meet all the tasks demanded of it both by NATO and nationally. Indeed, a number of important tasks have been gapped over the years, including the Article 5 operation in the eastern Mediterranean, and of course we have increasing threats as we speak. What are the Government doing, and what will they do, to ensure that the current inadequate number of destroyers and frigates does not drop below 19 and that the destroyer/frigate force actually increases in size?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I assure the noble and gallant Lord that this will be a matter that SDSR 15 looks at very closely.
Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)
My Lords, I realise that this is a very sensitive area, but I do think that the public and Parliament are entitled to a little more information in this area and that the Minister and the MoD should not shelter behind generalisations. Specifically, how does Russian submarine activity off our shores compare with activity off the shores of our allies? Secondly, is the Russian activity increasing and, thirdly, is it very much focused on Faslane and our deterrent capability?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I am sure my noble friend will appreciate that for reasons of national security I cannot discuss the detail of such events, as to do so could allow conclusions to be drawn on the UK’s capabilities. However, I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord West, and my noble friend that we take the security of our maritime boundaries very seriously.
Lord Soley (Lab)
My Lords, I appreciate the sensitivity of this, but can the noble Lord go a bit further and tell us whether we have an estimate of activity around the waters of Scotland and whether the Scottish Government are aware of any problems of this nature? Although it is not a matter for them, it is a matter of interest to the people of Scotland.
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, again, I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord; I cannot discuss this issue, but I can tell him that defence is a reserved issue and is not the business of the Scottish Government. We will not compromise on the defence of the United Kingdom.
Lord Bilimoria (CB)
My Lords, the Minister mentioned the SDSR. Under SDSR 2010, brutal cuts were made and Nimrods were physically destroyed. Would he now say that the Government regret the decision to destroy that amazing capability, which we could use right now?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, the severe pressure on the public finances in 2010 and the urgent need to bring the defence programme into balance meant that we could not retain all our existing programmes and that we had to prioritise between capabilities. The aircraft’s future high support costs were a clear factor in that decision. It is also well known that the MRA4 project suffered from repeated delays and cost overruns, and was still suffering from technical problems in 2010.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, further to the Minister’s answer to my noble friend Lord Soley, we all understand that defence is a reserved matter, but would it not be sensible to let the First Minister of Scotland know the threats from Russia so that we get a more sensible policy in relation to the Trident nuclear deterrent?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very good point and I will make sure that my department passes that on to the Scotland Office.
Air Quality: London
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, the mayor is responsible for working towards air quality objectives in London. Nationally, the Government have committed £2 billion since 2011 to address air pollution. As part of this, the Government work closely with the mayor, the GLA and London boroughs to improve air quality, including providing support via our air quality grant fund for a range of projects.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that last week the Mayor of London issued a warning that pollution in London had reached a dangerous level? That level was so dangerous that advice had to be given to thousands of Londoners—people with certain health conditions, young and old—that they should not go outside and should not take strenuous exercise. Is it not a disgrace that our capital city does not have decent air quality?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, the poor air quality event last week was due to pollution brought in via winds from continental Europe—
Baroness Garden of Frognal
It was not the fault of the European Union. This was combined with particulate matter from a number of local sources. The Government provided information to the public, including health advice on UK-AIR, the Government’s air quality website. However, I agree that more needs to be done to clean London’s air.
Lord Krebs (CB)
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the European Court of Justice ruled last November that in 40 out of 43 urban areas in this country the legal limits for nitrogen oxides were exceeded. She will also be aware that Public Health England estimates that 28,000 people a year in this country die prematurely as a result of air pollution. Given these figures and facts, is it not time for the Government to take stronger action to tackle urban air pollution, not only in London but in many other cities in this country?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, air quality has improved significantly in recent years. Average roadside concentrations of NO2 levels have fallen by 15% since 2010. However, I entirely agree with the noble Lord that more needs to be done, and a great deal is being done. For example, we are using the tax system on vehicles and cars to encourage the purchase of cars with low CO2 emissions regardless of whether they are petrol, diesel or other fuel types. A great deal is going on with buses and other forms of public transport to ensure that their emissions are as low as we can make them.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My Lords, I live in the most polluted part of the UK—central London—and I am still, fortunately, surviving. However, is the Minister aware that when traffic calming measures were introduced—I received this answer in your Lordships’ House—they resulted in greater air pollution? They slowed down the traffic so much in places such as the road through Hyde Park that it created a conflict: how do you deal with both of these issues so that you can slow traffic but not increase pollution?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My noble friend is right: there is work to be done on road design, road junctions, local planning and the design of buildings, all of which can have an impact on air pollution. Certainly traffic calming measures sometimes cause pollution to rise, but that is part of the constant review to find different ways of cleaning the air.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, given that the mayor is now worried about air pollution in London, has the Minister had any conversations with him about whether his decision not to proceed with introducing congestion charging in west London has helped to improve the health of people in London or make it worse?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I have not had a conversation with the mayor. That answers the first of the noble Lord’s questions. Congestion charging has had some effect, but not a great deal, on air pollution. We use a combination of factors such as encouraging people to use bicycles, to walk or to drive vehicles which do not use the worst kinds of fuels—all play a part. We need to use a combination of factors.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, rather than asking people to stay indoors during high pollution episodes, it would be better to give that advice to drivers of highly polluting vehicles and for them to stay at home?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
The noble Baroness makes a very important point.
Lord Teverson (LD)
My Lords, it is well understood that poor quality air produces many incidences of cardiovascular and respiratory diseases, as well as cancer. Does it not make sense for this to be a core area of health policy and a positive way to close the gap of £30 billion which is expected in the NHS budget by 2021?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My noble friend makes an important point. Defra works closely with the Department of Health and Public Health England and its advisers, as well as the Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollutants. We have daily air quality forecasts which provide accompanying health messages because a combined cross-departmental effort is required to tackle this problem.
Baroness Corston (Lab)
My Lords, in her response to the question put by my noble friend Lord Dubs, the noble Baroness referred to an expenditure of £2 billion to improve air quality. Is that £2 billion a national figure or is that the money to be spent just in London?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
The sum of £2 billion is predominantly for London because I am answering questions on London and the mayor of London’s programme. Defra has an air quality grant programme of £1 million and there are various other programmes. In this context, however, we are talking about what is being done to improve London’s air.
Lord Dykes (LD)
Can the Minister say whether we have any way of measuring the pollution produced by construction and building sites in and around London, of which there is now a larger number than we have seen for many years?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
Construction would be a contributory factor, but it is up to local government to take note of the pollution that is being caused by building sites in their areas.
Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)
My Lords, taking asthma as an example, is it not a fact that the trade-off in terms of extra costs to the health service would be as great as the cost of reducing air pollution? How does that arithmetic work out?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I am not entirely sure how that arithmetic is worked out, but I know that the departments are in constant dialogue with each other to try to ensure that the best case is made for improving air quality and for tackling the health problems that go with poor air quality.
Lord Borwick (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. Does my noble friend agree that we need more internet-connected air quality meters in London in order to tell people quite how bad the air is?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
It is all very well telling people how bad the air is, but you then need to tackle the problem itself. All these methods of communication help if they alert people to when it is safe to go out or when they should stay at home and not drive their cars. I think that that may well be one method to be pursued.
Privileges and Conduct Committee
The Chairman of Committees
That the 3rd Report from the Select Committee (Amendments to the Code of Conduct and the Guide to the Code; Redaction of written evidence to defunct select committees) (HL Paper 143) be agreed to.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel)
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. The third report from the Committee for Privileges and Conduct recommends various amendments to the Code of Conduct and the guide to the code, and one other change. If these amendments are agreed, the code and the guide will be republished for the new Parliament.
The first proposal is to allow the Committee for Privileges and Conduct to consider the suitability of a sanction recommended by the Sub-Committee on Lords’ Conduct in the absence of an appeal by the Member who has been found in breach of the code. Should the committee decide that a recommended sanction requires further consideration, it will give the Member concerned the opportunity to make representations before deciding whether to alter the sanction.
The second proposal is for this House to follow the House of Commons practice of keeping all terminated interests in the Register of Lords’ Interests for one year after the Member gives them up. At the moment, hospitality and gifts remain in the register for a year, but other interests are deleted as soon as they are given up.
The third proposal is that the Registrar of Lords’ Interests should no longer send an annual reminder to Members inviting them to check and update their entry in the Register of Lords’ Interests. This practice is potentially confusing as it might be taken to imply that Members have to revise their entries only once a year, whereas the code requires the register to be amended within one month of a change in a Member’s interests. Instead of the annual reminder there will be regular reminders through other means.
The fourth proposal clarifies the definition of a personal client as it is used in relation to the provision of public affairs advice in paragraph 57 of the guide.
The fifth proposal is that the requirement to register interests should apply to Members whose leave of absence lapses at the end of a Parliament from the date that they take the oath in the new Parliament. The committee also recommends that the Code of Conduct for Staff of Members of the House of Lords should apply to Members’ staff with a parliamentary email account but no photo-pass.
Finally, the report recommends that the Committee for Privileges and Conduct should have the power to respond to requests to redact personal details given in written evidence to a defunct Select Committee, such as an ad hoc committee that has been disbanded. I beg to move.
Lord Richard (Lab)
My Lords, I should like to ask the Chairman of Committees a question on the first of the proposals in relation to the committee considering sanctions against Members. Paragraph 2 of the report states:
“We believe that in rare circumstances it may be appropriate for the Committee for Privileges and Conduct to consider whether a sanction recommended by the sub-committee is appropriate even in the absence of an appeal”.
On the following page, sub-paragraph (iii) sets out the proposal that the committee should have the power to look at any recommendations that come up from the sub-committee and can take its own decision as to whether they are appropriate. Indeed, it can increase the sanction as well as reduce it. However, it does not say anything about that being in rare circumstances. What is the intention of the Chairman of Committees on this? Should it be an exceptional step for the committee to take or should it be considered, so to speak, pro forma, in which case you do not really need the sub-committee’s decision in the first place? I should be grateful for his views on that.
The Chairman of Committees
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for raising that issue. It is important to clarify this matter. The committee saw this as being in exceptionally rare circumstances. It would be a very occasional route to take in very specific circumstances. I have been Chairman of Committees for more than three years now and I can think of only one example that would come anywhere near this. It is certainly not meant to be as part of a routine consideration of a sanction.
Lord Richard
I am sorry to follow this up, but in that case should something not be said in the actual amendment to that effect?
The Chairman of Committees
I hope that my clarification today will be sufficient, but we will look at it to see whether it would help to put it in the amendment.
Emissions Performance Standard Regulations 2015
Baroness Verma
That the draft regulations and draft order laid before the House on 2 and 25 February be approved.
Relevant documents: 22nd, 23rd and 25th Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 27th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 17 and 19 March.
Mortgage Credit Directive Order 2015
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Newby
That the draft orders laid before the House on 26 January and 2 February be approved.
Relevant documents: 23rd and 24th Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 19 March.
Rural Payments Agency: Basic Payment Scheme
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer given to an Urgent Question in another place. The Statement is as follows.
“This is the first year of the new basic payment scheme. Because the new common agricultural policy is so complex, we needed to invest in a new computer system to administer claims. The existing SPS computer system would not have been able to cope. The core of the new rural payments system is working well, based on systems in other countries with portal to register and map. To date, over 80% of farm businesses in England have registered successfully on it so they can submit a BPS claim, and we continue to encourage all farm businesses to register online as soon as possible.
However, there have been some performance issues with the online interface that enables farmers to input the data directly. We have been working to address these issues since February. Our priority has always been to ensure that farmers can submit their claims by the deadline. That is why we have acted and made some adjustments to our plans. The RPA is now offering farmers and their agents the option of using existing paper-based forms to finalise their claims. Information from these forms will then be input by the RPA on to the system.
There are two new ways that farmers can complete their claims. Farm businesses with little change to their land will be fast-tracked by the RPA, particularly those that have permanent pasture. They will receive an email in April that summarises the land and entitlement information already held, together with simple instructions on completing their claim by email. The RPA has identified approximately 39,000 farmers in this category. Secondly, farm businesses that need to map new features can use blank existing forms to prepare their claims before they are sent a pre-populated form in early April. They can submit their claim by email or post or through an RPA drop-in centre, 50 of which have been established. Separately, all agents will have received maps of their clients’ land from the RPA by the end of next week. Those dealing with the most complex cases will be offered additional support. The RPA is also working to give agents direct access to the system so that they can make applications quickly.
This is a pragmatic response which applies to the application process in 2015. It means that we will be able to make payments to farmers from when the payment window opens in December 2015. All data entered so far on the rural payments scheme system have been saved and will be used by the RPA to complete farmers’ claims this year.
A number of EU member states have faced implementation difficulties in implementing a new CAP. In parallel, the Commission has offered an option for member states to extend the deadline for basic payment scheme—BPS—applications to 15 June. This was discussed in Council on 16 March and confirmed by the Commission on 19 March.
In conclusion, the core of the new system works and we are not abandoning anything. We will continue to use it. It will enable claims to be processed efficiently this year and will be the basis for service improvements in future years. The action we announced last week to provide paper-based assistance will ensure that applications can be submitted on time, and this has been welcomed by stakeholders. Given the imminent general election, we are keen to keep up communications across the House”.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
I thank the Minister for repeating the response to the Urgent Question. How foolhardy of a Conservative-led coalition to insist on 100% online submissions in a year that sees the introduction of the new basic payment scheme. I declare my interest as a farmer in receipt of EU funds.
Many farmers will depend on this scheme, as they have on the previous systems, to be able to remain in business—how vital it is to them that the RPA can function constructively, honestly and professionally in a timely fashion. However, registering for a claim is not the same as completing that claim. Is the process now a twin-track approach of new information being submitted on paper while existing information is held online? What information will the RPA give to farmers to reassure them regarding claim reconciliations that the RPA may do, as the Statement said, without imposing penalties?
It has previously been stated that the new scheme is too complex for paper. Now that farmers are reverting to paper, is there an increased risk of errors that once again may result in penalties being levied or disallowance being imposed from Europe? Why did Ministers in the department not insist on and implement contingencies earlier to save farmers time and expense at this very busy time of year? Most importantly, can the Minister say whether the mapping functionality in the RPA can be made to work or will it need to be replaced completely?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, the complexity of the CAP is not what we would have chosen, and in the implementation we have tried to find the simplest option. I suppose that, in essence, in answer to the noble Lord’s questions, the RPA does whatever it can to help farmers meet the deadlines and fill in the forms. There are 50 RPA drop-in centres, which I mentioned; there is a helpline; and there are mobile units to help reach the most isolated and vulnerable farmers. In addition, handbooks have been sent to all farmers to try to help ensure that all farmers manage to get the claims that they need when they need them.
Lord Plumb (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for the statement she made. Equally, we should thank Defra for trying to deal with the most complicated system that I have experienced since 1972. I declare an interest as a farmer, and one who has dealt with the various changes over the years to the common agricultural policy system.
The only people who have gained this year are those who are advising farmers—an army of people—on how to fill out the forms and deal with this. Of course, we have seen this coming for some considerable time, and the way that it has been dealt with obviously proved that the computer system that exists was totally incapable of dealing with this complex system. I hope, therefore, that the response will be as sound as it can be. I am well aware that farmers are coping as well as they can, but I am equally well aware that they are spending an awful lot of time dealing with this problem at a time when they should be farming rather than filling in forms.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My noble friend Lord Plumb speaks with a great deal of experience in these matters gained over many years. It is a complex issue and Defra is fully aware that we need to get all the help that we can to farmers, particularly at this time of year. As I outlined, there are many ways in which the RPA is there to help and assist, and we hope that the transfer will happen as straightforwardly as we can possibly make it.
The Earl of Erroll (CB)
My Lords, I declare a serious interest as I do all the paperwork online for my wife, who farms and is trustee of a second place, so I will be trying to file for two estates. We were a quarter of the way through when the computer system went down at the weekend with no notice. It then kept saying that it would give us access as soon as possible but was offline for another week. Eventually, the latest announcement that we were going to paper was made. Trying to map the scale of complexity that we have on bits of paper that are blank is ridiculous. The whole place was mapped and inspected a few months ago, and the Rural Land Register has completely accurate maps in place. Why are those not being used? They show the deductions and the only things that need to be added are cropping and greening.
Also, the single payment system was up and running perfectly well but is about to be taken down in a few days’ time. Why not use that as the basis, because it has all the maps and has done for the last 10 years? All that has to be added to it are the crops, as opposed to just simple crop codes, and then a greening percentage. It is not that difficult. Maybe someone practical who understands IT should be involved. I have been doing this for 12 years, since IACS was going online. Maybe someone who actually understands how the system works at the sharp end could advise on how this can be sorted out. Trying to do it on paper is going to be a disaster; it will be like back in 2005 when the students tried to put it online and the mapping errors took a year or more to sort out.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I hear what the noble Earl says. The paper exercise is designed for people who are unable to access a computer. Any data that are already on the computer have been saved. The RPA has written to all those who may have broadband problems, if that is an issue. The data should not need to be re-entered if it is already on the system.
Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a recipient of payments under the basic payment scheme since, I think, its origin. I commend the Government and the European Commission on having responded to the great difficulties that many people have had in re-registering this year. I spent two and a half hours over the weekend trying to register myself online and was entirely thwarted because you have to start off by verifying your identity. Although I tried two channels—the Experian and the Post Office channels that were available—both resisted steadfastly the notion of my existence. I felt like saying, “Cogito ergo sum”. I think it is a good idea when public administration responds to technical difficulties like this that have been experienced by many members of the public. I hope that, going forward, the Government continue to be sympathetic in this way to the problems of farmers, who are great experts in farming but not often in IT. Will the Minister explain whether it is the intention of Her Majesty’s Government to accept the offer of the European Commission to delay the final payment until 15 June? We have been told that that was suggested by the Commission but that it is up to member states to decide whether to take it up.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I am sorry that the noble Lord has had such problems proving his identity. On the difficulty of registration, more than 80% of farm businesses have successfully managed to do it, but, of course, one needs to concentrate on those who have not. The Government are considering extension of the deadline to 15 June, and it will be a matter of seeing how we progress with the online registrations as they go.
Lord Glentoran (Con)
My Lords, I am a farmer in Northern Ireland. The problem that we all have there is that, even if we fill in the forms correctly, the Government will not pay. They just put it off and put it off. Sums of money they owed to me and neighbours were more than six months overdue. We run with bank accounts that are frequently overdrawn at certain times of the year. If the Government do not pay, the banks get on our backs and where do we go? If we ring government Ministers, they do not know.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, my understanding is that this is a devolved matter. The Statement that I repeated covers only England. I apologise if that sounds like a cop-out, but it is probably better if I do not stray into Northern Ireland farming problems.
Baroness O'Cathain (Con)
My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister a very simple question. Is every single farmer IT literate? Does every single farmer have a computer? In other words, is every single farmer online?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
Increasingly that is the case, but the RPA has written to all farmers, who may not all be online, and equally to all those who may have broadband problems in the areas where broadband is not completely rolled out. By way of the helpline, the mobile units and so on, the RPA is trying to make sure that those who are not online get help.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick (CB)
My Lords, my particular problem is that I believe that I may have registered, but I cannot now find out whether I have registered or not. It seems to be impossible to discover.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I am very sorry about that. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord needs to phone the RPA helpline and, like the noble Lord, Lord Davies, discover whether he exists. I wish him luck. The helpline and the contacts are there to try to iron out those initial problems.
Falkland Islands Defence Review
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con)
My Lords, with permission, I shall repeat a Statement on the Falkland Islands defence review. The Statement is as follows:
“Safeguarding our citizens and their way of life remains the most important responsibility of government and of defence. In March 2013, the Falkland Islands referendum reaffirmed the islanders’ overwhelming wish to remain British. Of the 92% who voted, 99.8% voted in favour of maintaining their political status as an overseas territory of the United Kingdom.
We will always defend the right of the Falkland Islanders to determine their own political future. The Ministry of Defence retains responsibility for the external defence and security of British interests in the south Atlantic, and to that end undertakes regular assessments to ensure that we have in place the appropriate defensive capability.
In autumn 2013, my predecessor asked officials to undertake a thorough review of the forces that we hold on the Falkland Islands and our contingency plans for their defence. The objective was to ensure that our enduring commitment to the defence of the islands is sustained effectively. That review has now been completed.
The review’s conclusions remain operationally sensitive in the light of potential threats, and I hope that the House will understand that I cannot disclose much of the detail.
However, I can tell the House that we have updated our assessment of any threat to the islands. This includes a consideration of the changes that may arise from the islanders’ plans to develop their economy, including the potential for development of an oil and gas industry. We continue to discuss these issues with the Falkland Islands Government.
I have endorsed the assessment of the Chief of the Defence Staff and the Commander of Joint Forces Command that the current military presence is broadly proportionate to the threats and the risks that we face. Our forces in the south Atlantic are entirely defensive, and are at the level required to ensure the defence of the Falkland Islands against any potential threat.
However, I have also agreed a number of measures designed to ensure our resilience for the short, medium and longer term. I can tell the House that these measures will include the return of military support helicopters, which were removed in 2006 to support operations in Afghanistan. On current plans, this will involve the deployment of two Chinooks, which will be operational by mid-2016. This is a significant capability, which will provide reactive, 24/7 tactical mobility in order to allow a swift and decisive response to any emerging incidents. The helicopters will also bring a heavy lift capability and will enhance the training opportunities available to the resident infantry company.
We also have plans in place to deliver enhanced operational communications for the headquarters at Mount Pleasant to better enable the sharing of real-time operational data, and I can confirm that we will be renewing the ground-based air defence system when Rapier comes out of service around the end of the decade. We will also maintain our commitment to provide a Falkland Islands patrol vessel, currently HMS “Clyde”.
In addition, we intend to carry out a number of projects to replace some of the ageing infrastructure, for example the refurbishment of Mare Harbour and the replacement of the existing power generation systems at Mount Pleasant Airfield. A major modernisation of the fuels infrastructure is also under way and is now nearing completion.
In total, we expect to invest up to £180 million in improving and modernising our infrastructure on the islands over the next 10 years. In addition to the operational improvements that I have already mentioned, we are also taking action to improve the quality of life of those who serve in the Falklands, including planned improvements to their accommodation, and a new primary school.
Although there will be some changes in personnel numbers as the Sea King helicopters are withdrawn and the Chinook force stands up, I have decided that for the foreseeable future we will keep our numbers at around their current level of about 1,200 personnel, military and civilian.
I know that the House will want to join me in taking this opportunity to pay tribute to our brave men and women, military and civilian, who leave behind their families and friends for months or years at a time in order to ensure the right of the Falkland Islanders to remain British. We will always remember the bravery of the 255 British servicemen who gave their lives for that cause.
I am aware of the close interest that the Defence Select Committee takes in the Falkland Islands, and of the committee’s most recent visit there earlier this year. I am grateful for its insights, some of which echo the findings of this review. I have written earlier today to the committee chairman.
The review that we have undertaken confirms our commitment to the Falkland Islands. We will continue to defend the right of the islanders to determine their future and maintain their way of life against whatever threats may exist. This review ensures that we will continue to have the right mix of people, equipment and infrastructure to deliver that commitment in the years ahead.
We are not complacent. The Government will continue to remain vigilant, but on the basis of the review and the follow-on measures that I have established I am satisfied that the Government can be confident in their continued ability to defend the south Atlantic islands. I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made in the other place by the Secretary of State on what is a busy day for the Ministry of Defence, with one oral ministerial Statement and no fewer than five written ministerial Statements.
In his Statement today, and on the radio this morning, the Secretary of State—in response to a question about a newspaper report that Russia was working on a deal to lease 12 long-range bombers to Argentina—said that he had been reviewing the defence of the Falkland Islands and it was right to do that every so often. He went on to say that we needed to modernise our defences in the Falklands to ensure that we had sufficient troops there and that the islands were properly defended in terms of air maintenance and maritime defence. He added that our commitment to the Falkland Islanders having the right to remain British, and to proper protection by our forces, remained absolutely clear. We would certainly endorse that commitment, not least in the context of the outcome of the 2013 referendum when the Falkland Islanders made clear their emphatic wish to remain British. We, too, wish to express our gratitude to our personnel who have served, and continue to serve, in the Falklands, and in particular to our 255 service personnel who made the ultimate sacrifice and the hundreds who were injured in action retaking the Falklands.
Can the Minister say whether the Government regard the threat to the Falkland Islands as having recently increased and whether the Statement today is the response to that? On the radio this morning, the Secretary of State simply said that the threat had not reduced; he did not say that it had increased. Do the Government regard Russian influence in the region as increasing? What, if any, new diplomatic initiatives are taking place with the Argentinian Government and other Governments in South America, as well as with our allies?
In the Statement, reference was made to the refurbishment of the harbour in the Falklands. It would be helpful if the Minister could indicate when that work is likely to be completed. Can he also say how soon the missile system will be upgraded?
We certainly support the measures that the Government have announced today, but I would like to ask where this announcement fits in with the pending strategic defence and security review, since the Government have presumably decided that the announcements today could not wait until the SDSR planned for later this year. On the radio this morning, the Secretary of State said that he had started a review of the defence of the Falkland Islands last year—not, as I think is indicated in the Statement today, that it had begun in 2013. Last year, the Secretary of State said in the other place that he was,
“very clear that the next SDSR is being carried out next year”—[Official Report, Commons, 20/10/14; col. 662]—
that is, in 2015; and that the Government had not started on the review in 2014, since “that awaits next year”. Now we know that a review of what is surely one important part of our existing and future defence commitments was in fact already taking place when the Secretary of State made that statement. Can the Minister say what other aspects of our existing and future defence commitments are currently the subject of review at ministerial level? I ask that in the context of the Government’s apparent lack of willingness to engage with the public in general—and key stakeholders in particular—on the 2015 strategic defence and security review, which is now scheduled to be completed in some nine months’ time. Yet we now find that what appear to be key decisions have just been made in respect of the defence of the Falklands, which will surely have implications for the 2015 SDSR, on which very little significant progress, if any, has apparently been made.
Indeed, it appears that a further key strategic defence decision has already been made by this Government since the Secretary of State repeated on the radio this morning the statement made by the Prime Minister that there will be no further cuts in the size of the Regular Army, a statement that likewise must have some considerable significance for the direction and content of the SDSR. The Prime Minister’s statement was an interesting one. Does the reference to no further cuts in the size of the Regular Army also extend to no cuts in the future size of our intended 30,000 Army Reserve strength, or was the silence on any commitment in respect of the Army Reserve both deliberate and significant?
Have any other decisions impacting on the 2015 SDSR recently been made before there has apparently been any attempt to involve the public or key stakeholders in consultations on the 2015 SDSR? Finally, while I reiterate our support for the measures that the Government have announced today, do the Government feel that the situation in the Falklands from a defence point of view is such that the decisions could not have been announced later this year as part of, and in the context of, the 2015 SDSR?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his broad welcome for our conclusions to the review. I join him from these Benches in paying tribute to those who are currently serving in the Falkland Islands. Like him, we remember those servicemen who were lost in the battle long ago.
The noble Lord asked me a lot of questions; I was not able to write quickly enough to get them all down, but I will undertake to write him a letter with the answers as soon as I possibly can. He mentioned the recent referendum and the democratic right of the Falkland Islanders to remain British. This Statement sends a strong message to the Falkland Islanders.
The noble Lord mentioned the review. We review all our activity routinely. However, in 2013, given the time that had elapsed since the comprehensive review of the Falkland Islands, officials and Commander JFC advised that such a comprehensive review would be appropriate. Ministers agreed with this advice and provided clear direction for that review.
The noble Lord asked whether Russian influence had increased in the region. The Ministry of Defence undertakes regular assessments of potential major threats to the Falkland Islands to ensure that we retain an appropriate level of defence capability to address such threats. He asked if the threat had increased. There is no current evidence of Argentina’s intent or capability to launch a credible military attack on the Falkland Islands, but we are not complacent and the Government remain absolutely committed to the protection of the Falkland Islands and its population.
The noble Lord mentioned the story in the newspaper this morning. I have no idea where that came from; I have asked officials at the MoD and they do not know either.
The noble Lord asked me about the missile system being upgraded. Our current short-range air defence system—Rapier—is due to go out of service at the end of the decade. Due to the age of that system it would be impractical to sustain it in the longer term, and therefore it needs to be replaced if UK forces are to continue to be able to provide defence to our deployed forces against an air threat.
The noble Lord asked about diplomacy. We have warm relations with most of the South American countries. I meet a number of Foreign and Defence Ministers from these countries, and I assure him that none of them has ever mentioned the Falkland Islands to me. Still, I am sure that these diplomats have noticed the Falkland Islands referendum. We want to have a full and friendly relationship with Argentina as neighbours in the South Atlantic and responsible fellow members of the G20, but we will not negotiate away the rights of the Falkland Islands people against their will or behind their backs.
The noble Lord asked when the harbour is going to be refurbished. It will be done by the end of 2017. I am afraid I could not keep up with all his questions, but he asked me about the 2015 SDSR. As he knows, a lot of background work is being done on that. The decisions on the Falklands Islands announced today are separate from the SDSR, and in all honesty the Statement is not making very big decisions.
Lord Burnett (LD)
As this is probably my noble friend’s last defence Statement as a Minister in this Parliament, I congratulate him on his exemplary service as a Defence Minister over the past five years. I understand that HMS “Clyde” is an off-shore patrol vessel. Does my noble friend agree that we should strengthen the permanent Royal Navy presence in and around the Falkland Islands?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his very kind, totally undeserved, words. The Falklands Islands patrol vessel capability will be retained when HMS “Clyde” leaves service in 2017. I assure my noble friend that we always have either a Type 45 destroyer or a Type 23 frigate available to reinforce the Falklands Islands.
Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)
I have no idea whether this is the last appearance of the noble Lord at the Dispatch Box—of course, on this side we all hope that the Government are defeated in the forthcoming election—but if it is his last performance in this role, I shall say how much our side have appreciated the courtesy and conscientiousness which he has always shown in fulfilling his roles in this House. The depth of his genuine commitment to our military and to the defence of the nation has never been doubted by anybody.
As the noble Lord knows from many discussions and debates, I have always believed that capability and threat are not independent variables. It is not an accident that since NATO started cutting its defence expenditure Mr Putin has become ever more bold and ever more aggressive. At present, Cristina Fernández is in a very difficult situation and is facing a major scandal and the collapse of the Argentinian economy. She could well be tempted to have a go at some adventure if there was a quick trick to be taken. A strong signal needed to be sent and the Government appear to have done that—that is how I interpret the Statement today. All of us on this side of the House will endorse my noble friend in giving the Government support on that.
There is one question I want to ask. Everybody who knows the Falklands knows that we cannot go on much longer there unless an effort is made to refurbish and rebuild the barracks which were constructed after 1982 and at that time were due to last for 20 years. They are already in a state of embarrassing disrepair. Are there any plans to replace them or to refurbish them?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his very kind words. I understand that the barracks are going to be refurbished. I can write to the noble Lord with specific details on the plans.
Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the Statement that the Minister has made, and I endorse the comments about his conduct and attention to the House in his time as Defence Minister, which have been admirable. If there is any relevance in the story that appears today, I hope that the Government are making the strongest representations to the Argentinian Government about the unwisdom of becoming involved with Russia at present and what that might mean for the continent of America. The United States of America has previously taken a slightly detached view about the relationships and has viewed the Falklands as a matter between the United Kingdom and Argentina. Were there to be Russian involvement in some way, it would be of keen Interest to the United States.
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his very kind words. As regards Russia, the Ministry of Defence undertakes regular assessments of potential military threats to the Falkland Islands to ensure that we retain an appropriate level of defensive capability to address any such threats. We remain vigilant and are committed to the protection of the Falkland Islanders.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, I lost 22 of my boys when my ship was sunk in the retaking of the Falklands, so the islands are particularly close to my heart. I am very glad that we are showing a commitment to keep defending them. The Argentinians’ behaviour is consistently extremely bad; for example, they are calling the new class of frigates they are buying from China “Malvinas class”, which is a clear statement of intent, even if currently they do not have the capability to do much about it.
I am concerned that our strategy for the whole South Atlantic has not been cleverly put together as regards things such as the British Antarctic Survey, how we look upon Antarctica, the other islands we are responsible for, the mail steamer that goes from Tristan da Cunha, as well as the defence aspects of the Falklands, all of which should be looked at together. Every time I go to the Falklands I am delighted to see that society there is now wealthy and vibrant, getting wealthier—and, my goodness me, if they get oil, they will be like Kuwait. Are they going to pay a large chunk of that £185 million? We seem to have almost no money, looking forward to our large defence budget, which will plunge to below 2% of GDP.
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I pay tribute to those brave sailors who went down on the noble Lord’s ship. He asked me about the oil situation. The Falkland Islands Government have said that if the oil exploration is successful they would wish to share some of their revenues with the UK to offset the costs to Her Majesty’s Government of the defence of the islands.
Lord Boyce (CB)
My Lords, we on these Benches share in the complimentary comments on the Minister’s contribution to all defence questions—I thank him very much indeed. I hear what the Minister said about there being a destroyer or frigate available to go down and help the patrol ship should the occasion arise, but sometimes these destroyers or frigates can be quite a long way away. Does the Minister agree that the best form of defence for the Falkland Islands is to have a visible, upthreat, maritime presence of significance? A patrol ship does a good job, but it is not a very serious deterrent. Therefore does he agree that the frequency with which the destroyers or frigates can get down to the Falkland Islands and show themselves there from time to time should be increased—and that there should be the odd submarine visit as well? As a corollary to that, we need a destroyer frigate force larger than the 19 we currently have.
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I can assure the noble and gallant Lord that the destroyers and frigates are within a certain number of days’ sailing distance from the Falkland Islands—we are very insistent on that. I think he will agree with me that sometimes an invisible deterrent is as effective.
Lord Craig of Radley (CB)
My Lords, the Minister has made an important Statement, but it really says, “We’re continuing as we are, doing some routine maintenance” —which after 30 years is hardly surprising—“and we’re sending a couple of Chinooks there next year”. That seems to beg the question: why has this become an Oral Statement rather than just a Written Statement?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I understand that it became an Oral Statement because the Opposition asked for that.
Lord Swinfen (Con)
My Lords, after the reports in the news today that the Russians are providing the Argentinians with military equipment, will the Government undertake a fresh review?
Lord Astor of Hever
I can tell my noble friend that we will not undertake a fresh review, but we keep the situation under constant and continual review.
EU and Russia (EUC Report)
(9 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Tugendhat
That this House takes note of the Report of the European Union Committee on The EU and Russia: before and beyond the crisis in Ukraine (6th Report, HL Paper 115).
Lord Tugendhat (Con)
My Lords, I thank my colleagues on the committee for their perseverance and very considerable help. We have had a long journey, which has required a great deal of hard work, mutual understanding and attention to each other’s views, and I am extremely grateful for their support. My only regret is that, under the rotation rule, so many of them will be leaving the committee at the end of this Session. I should also like to offer profound thanks to our two outstanding assistants, the committee clerk, Sarah Jones, and our policy analyst, Roshani Palamakumbura. I speak for all my colleagues in expressing our admiration, as well as our gratitude, for the exceptionally high quality of their contributions. Finally, I thank the usual channels for enabling this report to be debated so soon after its publication and before Parliament winds up for the election. I quite understand that, as a result of the speed with which it is being debated, there cannot be a formal government response, but I hope that the Minister will be able to reply to points made during the debate.
Before turning to my speech, I should say how very much we all look forward to the maiden speech of the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith. He will speak with great authority as a former diplomat in Moscow and Kiev. Having looked him up on Wikipedia, although it is not always accurate, I believe that he has charitable and business interests in Ukraine. An additional reason for me to listen very carefully to what he has to say is that he was educated at Ampleforth, though a great many years after I was at that school.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
I am not able to speak for other reasons, but I think that all of us who were on the committee would say that the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, chaired it with great skill. He was an exemplary chairman and we should thank him very much indeed.
Lord Tugendhat
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord—or I think I can say my noble friend—Lord Foulkes, after that accolade. It certainly gets my speech off to a good start. I thank him very much.
As the title of our report indicates, our focus is on the events leading up to the current Ukraine crisis and looking beyond it to the future. I should make it clear, as does the report, where we stand on the present situation. Russia has to understand that taking over other people’s territory, whether in eastern Ukraine or Crimea, is unacceptable. Such actions cannot be allowed to stand. For as long as the present conflict lasts, the European Union should maintain sanctions and be ready, if required, to step them up. Therefore, I welcome last week’s European Council decision, which is in line with our approach. Sanctions cannot be an end in themselves; they must be a means to an end. Do Her Majesty’s Government believe that there should be a process whereby progress in resolving the underlying dispute and its causes is linked to a ratcheting down of sanctions? In short, should there be a carrot as well as a stick?
I have another question. In our report, we argued that, while the dispute lasts, other avenues of communication should be kept open, such as cultural links in commemoration of our shared history in World War II. Do the Government agree, and have they and other EU Governments yet taken a decision about wreath-laying in Moscow on 9 May, which is of course a particularly difficult day for British Ministers?
I turn to how the EU should proceed in future in relation to Ukraine and other ex-Soviet republics. The committee believes that, while Russia has no right to dictate to sovereign states on its borders, those states and the European Union need to take account of Russian interests and sensitivities. The historic, geographical and current economic links between those states and Russia are such that, if the EU is to play a constructive role in helping them to develop their economies and societies, that cannot be done in the teeth of Russian opposition, as the present crisis shows. This will require big changes of attitude on the part of Russia, and I will say a word about that in a few moments. However, as a committee of the British Parliament, our policy recommendations are directed to the British Government and the European Union.
The first step, I believe, must be to set goals for the EU’s relationship with those countries that take account of how far short of meeting the criteria for EU membership they currently fall and how long it will take them to catch up. We should be prepared to help them close the gap but this will require tough love. In Ukraine and elsewhere, financial, technical, social and expert aid must all be subject to strict political and financial conditionality and accountability. Inevitably, this will create resentment against the donors, but these countries have indicated that they want to draw closer to us and our values, with a view to perhaps one day joining the European Union. We must therefore make it clear that the aid is to help them to do that, not to evade or defer difficult reforms, and certainly not to garner support against Russia.
With Russia, the challenge is of a different order: it is about how two large powers with different political and social systems can work constructively together as equals on common problems in a shared space. This will require sensitivity, mutual respect and an understanding on both sides of different historical perspectives. We on the EU side must try to understand why Russia feels as it does about EU enlargement and NATO. On the evidence that we took, I think we all agreed that President Putin’s views are to a large extent shared by most of the Russian population, and that any foreseeable successor to President Putin would most likely hold the same views. On their side, the Russians must try to grasp the impact that the USSR’s post-World War II expansionism has had on Europe’s collective psyche, and why so many countries on its borders feel as they do about drawing closer to the European Union. It is in this context that the committee believes that co-operation between the European Union and the Eurasian Economic Union might provide a way forward. Let us together explore how far and in what manner the rules and requirements of these two organisations might be aligned. This could provide a useful framework within which to develop closer EU-Russia economic relations and to develop the countries that border on both the European Union and Russia.
Much as we should like to see better EU-Russia relations, there is nothing starry eyed about the committee’s approach. We attach importance to holding Russia to the obligations it has freely entered into in respect of the World Trade Organization and the European Convention on Human Rights. We also believe that even if Russia is willing to tolerate corruption and lax business practices, to put it kindly, within its own borders, these must not be allowed to contaminate its dealings with this country or the rest of the EU.
I end with an exhortation. The committee believes that since the end of the Cold War there has been a decline in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s analytical and language skills in relation to Russia. Indeed, only last week we were surprised to learn at a seminar that we held that, in recent years, the head of the Russian desk has sometimes turned over on an almost annual basis, and that at least one recent holder of that office did not speak Russian. I do not know whether the Minister will be able to cast light on that. Whether or not she can do that, I hope that she will assure the House that if there is a Conservative Government after the election, they will devote sufficient diplomatic resources to the vital Russian relationship.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, there is a large number of speakers in this debate. I remind noble Lords that the advisory speaking time is eight minutes. If noble Lords keep to that or less, we will finish this debate by 7.30 pm—four and a half hours from its outset—which will allow us to finish by 10 pm.
Lord Judd (Lab)
My Lords, I am sure that I speak for the whole House in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, and his colleagues on, and thanking them for, a particularly interesting report. Like the noble Lord, I share keenly the anticipation of the maiden speech of the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith.
The issue of Russia’s identity is not new. Not that long ago, historically speaking, the language of the court in St Petersburg was French. Against this, there has been a long-standing, introspective and profound search by others for the true soul of Russia. The Russians are proud people. The heroism, courage and great human cost of their contribution to World War II should never be forgotten or underestimated. It was crucial to the defeat of the Nazis. The endurance of the Russian people was well demonstrated in how they came through the cruel policies and purges of the Stalin era. For all these reasons, we must beware—whatever our intentions—of perceived triumphalism and of our own self-righteousness. We must, after all, remember the ongoing questions of the implications of the Iraq war.
I have felt for a long time that comparisons can be made with Versailles. I have been surprised to hear some say that the Russians have illusions de grandeur. Now we have a former KGB colonel, Putin, in charge. Of course, in Russia, the KGB is an elite, with its own schools and universities, and to understand Russia, one has to understand that. With it goes arrogance and unacceptable corruption.
I was one of those who had a dream of what might be possible following the end of totalitarian communism and the fall of the Berlin Wall—an exciting new Russia, playing an imaginative part in world affairs. That has not happened. We have to ask ourselves for a moment how far we contributed to that reality. Perhaps we cannot discount the prevailing ethos of romantic ideology and grotesquely oversimplified economic doctrines of the age of Reagan and Thatcher, as compared with the collective wisdom and experience of mixed economies, accountable capitalism and liberal democracy in mainland Europe. Are we perhaps reaping some of the rewards of our own misjudgments? The issue was how to build a society, not just an economy, in Russia—how to make the transition from A to B.
I am one of those who longs for wise, visionary and imaginative leadership, aiming at what global society could be, rather than just numbers and territory-mesmerised autocratic managers—a reassertion of strategy, as distinct from tactics. This report is particularly interesting because it faces that challenge and suggests practical, rather than self-defeating and grandiose, means of meeting it. It emphasises the importance of identifying common interests—striving for constructive relationships with the Russian people, rather than just hostile, punitive relationships. But, as the noble Lord so rightly said, that demands tough and forthright relationships as well. What has happened in Ukraine and Crimea; what happens in our territorial waters and our airspace; what happens with the scattering of lethal, radioactive poison across London: all these things demand resolute responses.
There is one issue that illustrates what I am saying very well. I should declare an interest. For nearly four years I was rapporteur to the Council of Europe on the conflict in Chechnya and, inevitably, in the northern Caucasus. We did not take that issue seriously enough. We may have fidgeted with the teaspoons in our conversations and said that there were people in Britain who were rather worried about human rights in that situation, but we did not tackle it head on and say, “You are contributing to future world instability because you are driving people into the hands of militant extremists, and this will strengthen the international dimensions of the jihadist movement”. We did not say that as firmly as we should have—and I cannot really see what has happened more recently in isolation. We should also remember the heroes of Russian society: people such as Anna Politkovskaya, Natalia Estemirova and too many other journalists who have been assassinated because of their stand for truth. All this is a matter not just of Chechnya and the north Caucasus, but of Russia itself.
As the committee argued, our objective certainly must be good, strong relations with Russia. To have these we will have to be firm and unyielding in our stance along the way on issues such as those that I have just mentioned. Above all, the report argues, as I see it, that we should build relations with the Russian people and with civil society, from education, law and cultural exchange, to the demanding issues of media freedom and human rights. After all, that is what we did so outstandingly well in our contribution to the building of a new, post-Nazi Germany. We took people from all parts of British society and put them in to work in the community. If I may make a personal remark, I remember that my own mother became very devoted to the work she did in a community in Germany, trying to build up concepts of local democracy.
We should be grateful for this report. It is constructive and balanced, and it makes a good start for our deliberations.
Baroness Coussins (CB)
My Lords, I had the privilege to serve on Sub-Committee C of the EU Select Committee. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, for steering us so skilfully through this complex inquiry, which was so topical that the landscape seemed to change virtually from meeting to meeting. I endorse his thanks to the clerk, the policy analyst and the special adviser for their magnificent policy and technical support.
I will confine my remarks to the two very different points in this report to do with language and language skills. First, one of the report’s conclusions was:
“There has been a decline in Member States’ analytical capacity on Russia. This has weakened their ability to read the political shifts and to offer an authoritative response. Member States need to rebuild their former skills”.
The same deficit was found in our own Foreign Office as in the member states as a whole, and was thought to have occurred over some time in relation to Russia and the region. Sir Tony Brenton, a former British ambassador to Russia, told us that UK diplomacy has,
“suffered because of a loss of language skills, particularly in the Foreign Office”.
This point is all the stronger for echoing one of the conclusions of another Select Committee report, on soft power, which was debated in your Lordships’ House only two weeks ago.
Language skills and the cultural knowledge and understanding that go with them are a very important part of the analytical capacity that we found wanting. The report recommends that the FCO should review how its diplomats and other officials can regain this expertise. The new FCO language school is a first-class resource that is already making a contribution towards equipping some of the right people with Russian language skills prior to postings. About 10% of the 800 or so civil servants who had been on courses at the language school up to last November were studying Russian. If the recommendation on regaining linguistic and cultural skills is to be implemented on a solid, long-term basis, we need to see some changes much further back in the pipeline and not have to wait until people are already part of the Foreign Office or the Diplomatic Service for access to an intensive Russian course.
As a nation, we need to see a sea-change in our attitude towards language learning and a dramatic improvement in the take-up of languages at school and university. On Russian, I can give the House a very up-to-date picture of what is going on in schools from data published only last week in the 13th annual Language Trends survey. The curious thing about Russian is that at A-level take-up has nearly tripled over the past 20 years to nearly 1,200 in 2014. However, before anyone gets too excited about this apparent progress, it seems that the increase is largely due to increased numbers of native Russian-speaking non-UK nationals, mainly at independent schools. By contrast, a tiny proportion of state schools offer Russian—between 1% and 2%.
At university level, over the last 10 years there has been a 51% decline in the number of entrants to Russian and east European studies degree courses. Only 14 of our universities now offer Russian as a single honours degree and only 17 offer degrees in which Russian is a significant component. No universities in either Wales or Northern Ireland offer Russian, and only three in Scotland do—down from six quite recently. Slavonic languages other than Russian have fared very much worse still. I hope that the Minister will agree that the languages pipeline needs urgent attention and that the problems with Russian in particular, in the light of this report, cannot be solved simply by leaving it to the Foreign Office language school. Indeed, even with the benefit of the language school, only 27% of posts in the Diplomatic Service associated with a level of proficiency in Russian are actually filled by someone who meets the required standards.
The second language-related issue that appears in this report concerns not UK nationals but Russian nationals and ethnic Russians whose language rights may have been threatened or undermined by an EU member state. The report observes that the treatment of Russian speakers was one key theme in Russia’s actions in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. A proposal in the Ukrainian Parliament to repeal the 2012 language law allowing Ukraine regions to have Russian as a second official language was seen by many Russian-speaking Ukrainians as an alarming threat, even though it was subsequently withdrawn.
More pertinent still as far as the EU is concerned is that in Estonia and Latvia, two member states, Russian does not have the status of an official language, and in both countries citizenship rights, including the right to vote in national elections, are dependent on a language test in the official language. The result is that ethnic Russians, mainly older people, are denied citizenship and are unable to participate in the political process.
President Putin has, in various public statements, made much of this discrimination against Russian speakers living in EU countries and has accused the EU of double standards. Some of our witnesses thought that the plight of ethnic Russians was simply being used by Putin as a convenient pretext, that their social isolation was perhaps exaggerated, and that in any case in strictly legalistic terms Estonia and Latvia were violating no specific EU standards. Nevertheless, it is more than uncomfortable that any EU member state should make citizenship conditional on these terms and thereby hand Putin a card to play that suggests that the EU does not practise what it preaches.
Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)
I am one of those people who believe that it is perfectly reasonable to state that English would be a requirement for British citizenship, and I have no problem in principle about what happens in Estonia and Latvia. However, does the Baroness not agree that Putin has stated that Latvian and Estonian citizens who take the language test and then apply for and receive local nationality will no longer be allowed into Russia without a visa? He is preventing contact between the Russians living in those two countries and Russia, which he is then complaining about.
Baroness Coussins
The report acknowledges that point about visas. My point is that it is short-sighted to hand Putin a card to play that enables him to accuse the EU of double standards. The report concluded that there is a prima facie case requiring this historical grievance by ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia to be investigated. That is as far as we went. I hope that the UK Government will press for this investigation to be pursued by the EU so that any excuse for any level of Russian interference in these states on these particular grounds can be effectively neutralised and removed.
I look forward to the Minister’s response on this and to my earlier points about language skills.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
My Lords, it is a very interesting report. I am sorry that I was not on the committee because it sounds as though it would have been rather enjoyable under the skilled chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Tugendhat.
I have four points to add. First, in trying to curb Vladimir Putin’s ambitions and mischief making and the general Russian neurosis and paranoia which seems to prevail in its public opinion, the important starting point has to be that what is going on is a world issue and not only a western issue. Nothing will change decisively unless and until China and the Asian powers are as much engaged as the West professes to be. Of course, the sanctions we have applied and are threatening to apply more of can be hurtful to both sides—indeed, they are proving quite damaging to both sides—but as long as China ignores them there will always be an eastern back door through which Russia can escape and trade.
Putin has made it clear that he relies increasingly heavily on the East. He is working hard for new customers for his gas, for allies in the East—particularly China but other countries as well—and for joint development. He and Gazprom have finalised huge future deals for gas supplies to China and he welcomes proposals from Beijing for the new Silk Road, the Beijing-Moscow high-speed rail link and for a general vast development of links between middle Asia, the Pacific and China. Putin sees Russia not as just a European player—he never did—but as a world power straddling Europe and Asia. He wants near neighbours to play that game as well and to give him the respect that he feels he is due. That is the first point I want to make.
My second point concerns energy. There is only a little about it in the report—I understand why there was not an extensive delving into the complexities of energy—but of course it is a central issue to UK-Ukraine relations and to EU-Russia relations. The dependence on Gazprom, which the report mentions, of the eastern Europeans can be reduced by interconnectors from western Europe, and the current energy union ideas from Brussels are aimed at trying to develop that. However, Europe is always going to be an important customer of Russia, even after interconnector development, greater efficiency and importing more LNG from other countries, including the United States. In any case, Russia is giving up seeing Ukraine as a major transit route. It has shrugged off the South Stream plan, which was to take gas under the Black Sea, and is now connecting into Europe via Turkey on the Asian side of the Bosphorus. Russia plans to sell its gas into Turkey, and through Turkey into Europe that way. This demonstrates that Russia thinks that the unsettled Ukrainian state will continue for a very long time.
My third point is this. Putin will, in the end, be contained—it will be gradual—by other, bigger forces than sanctions. Russian banks need to borrow, but they can no longer do so at the favourable interest rates they could get when they had access to the West. Russia needs a lot more inward investment and trade than it has. The Russian people are connected with the rest of the world as never before at every level of citizenship, from school children upwards. The rouble has collapsed, the stock market has collapsed, and the price of oil has collapsed. All those things will eventually check him, particularly as the price of oil, contrary to many people’s hopes, will stay very low and will not go back to $100 dollars a barrel for a long time.
All these things will shape and put pressure on Putin, but I am not sure that sabre rattling will do so. That is because Russia is playing a very different game on the military side. It believes in “new methods of conflict”. Incursions are never to be central or openly military—that is the new doctrine. The new technique is known as maskirovka, which is not a conventional battlefield where the results can be defined and clear victories won; it is always something that is not what it seems. Russia will stir up minorities and do deals with individual countries, as it is trying to do now with Hungary in seeking to break up the European Union from within and proposing nuclear power, and of course it will take offence at the slightest provocation, as we have seen in the papers this morning over the VE Day celebrations.
Incidentally, talk of “arms to Kiev”, which some have suggested, also raises some curious maskirovka issues. Ukraine is one of the largest manufacturers and exporters of arms in the entire world. In 2012 it was the fourth largest. Ukraine supplies most of Russia’s helicopter engines and half of its nuclear arsenal is built there. So “arms to Kiev” for those who are urging it—like the US Congress calling this morning for lethal weapons to go to Kiev—means that those arms could end up anywhere. Knowing the area, as experts do, they will probably end up in the wrong hands.
To understand Russia today, we have to position ourselves somewhere midway between Kafka and Tolkien: nothing is what it seems. I did have some personal experience of the Magnitsky case, which involved bogus police, bogus tax authorities, bogus courts, bogus judges and bogus company officials who had stolen the identity of the company of Mr Bill Browder, to whom I was an adviser at the time. He set it all out in his fascinating book, Red Notice. All that indicates that fraud, scam and murder are the norm, as we saw so tragically the other day with the murder of Mr Nemtsov just outside the Kremlin.
In the long term, as this excellent report sets out, we have to live with Russia, as do all the other Asian powers. That is probably best done on both an EU and a national bilateral basis because we have to work on both tracks. The EU on its present integrationist path is always going to be a discomfort and irritation to Russia, whereas a less centralised, relaxed and, I hope, reformed EU would obviously be less threatening. Each EU state should feel free to build its own type of relationship with the Russian state and the Russian people.
Finally, the report talks about “sleepwalking” into this situation. I am not sure that that is fair. It is good journalism because of course all the newspapers picked up the phrase, but I am not sure that it is a good analysis. All along, there has been a perfectly clear awareness that Russia was on an uncertain and unpredictable course. It was trying to be a great power again and could not understand why it had lost power, but it was not behaving like a great power. Putin changed course completely. I heard him say in his earlier presidency that he wanted to work very closely with Europe and change the political face of Russia, but the Putin who came back in the second presidency was a completely changed man. It was an event that of course surprised, but it was not a surprise that anyone could have sensibly anticipated, however expert they were and however good their knowledge of Russia. Crimea was no surprise at all. Those of us who have been there know that it is a really beautiful place, but its heart was always with Russia. It was always amazed to find itself part of Ukraine and wanted to go back to Russia.
One does not need to be too much of an expert on a country to sense where it is going. In fact, quite often great reams of experts fail to predict things accurately and get things wrong, although I do not think that the blame game is really necessary. I learnt Russian at school but I do not think it helped me understand less or more the mysteries and the total unpredictability of the Russian trajectory.
There are plenty of surprise events ahead. We heard this morning that one may be coming in Argentina, with the decision of the Russians to supply weapons to Mrs Kirchner. I point your Lordships’ eyes in the direction of Kaliningrad—the old Königsberg, of course—where a huge build-up of Russian troops is taking place as they reinforce their vast naval base there. That is an area where we should be prepared for trouble. There are many difficulties ahead, and we have to use the same subtlety as the maskirovka experts will use against us.
The Earl of Oxford and Asquith (LD) (Maiden Speech)
My Lords, I should first like to express my deep appreciation for the assistance and guidance that I have received from all those who work in this building. I know that my experience differs in no way from others who have come before me, but it has been a real encouragement to encounter such courtesy and helpfulness from the officials, staff and doorkeepers on whom the functions of this House depend. It is not just their civility that I wish to pay tribute to but their infinite patience.
I welcome the committee report which has prompted this debate. I have lived and worked in Russia and Ukraine for over 30 years, and I continue to take a close interest in the region, as detailed in my entry in the register of interests. The report contains a great range of insights and level-headed recommendations, but I shall try to limit myself to a few specific points arising from it. Before I do so, I should like to make some observations on the current situation in eastern Ukraine in particular, which of course post-dates the publication of the report.
It is always rash to make predictions of events in time of war, but in my assessment, Putin has achieved militarily what he wanted to achieve in Donetsk and Lugansk: he has won his battles and humiliated the Ukrainian leadership; he has created an island of instability in eastern Ukraine; and he has destroyed much of Ukraine’s economy—the mines, factories and infrastructure in the region are shattered and people have fled.
Undoubtedly, there will be flare-ups, but for the time being at least, and assuming as an overriding caveat that Kiev observes, or accepts, the ceasefire, in my view the Russian military phase is largely over. Economic pressure, I believe, will characterise the next steps. In the last month, the Russian Government have relieved Russian private banks of their exposure to Ukrainian businesses. Over $50 billion of bank debt will be absorbed by the Russian Government, allowing the Russian commercial banks to restructure their balance sheets and giving surety over Ukrainian assets to the Russian state. I believe that, in the next 12 months or so, there will be a Russian push to buy out distressed Ukrainian assets. To put the policy in perhaps simplified but, I believe, not misleading terms, Russia’s aim will be to become as close to a 100% shareholder of Ukraine as is possible.
In that context, therefore, I want to make just three points. The first relates to the evidence that the report collects on “hard questions of strategy”, integrated foreign policy and diplomatic competences. I believe that one day Russia’s interventions in Ukraine will be seen as a critical mistake. Nevertheless, if we are to attempt to resolve the great instability in eastern Europe, at some stage we will have to negotiate with Putin—with Russia. Who “we” are is another matter—a most important one, indeed—but there has to be a process of negotiation on strategic issues. At the moment there is no process.
Of course, the German Chancellor and the French President have twice now gone to Minsk. They have shown much courage and persistence, but these very necessary negotiations were essentially about a ceasefire and peacekeeping. We know that there is a strategic basis on which Putin will negotiate. There is a specific framework. But we have not yet entered that stage and, until we do, I agree with the report that there will be no real settlement of this conflict.
Secondly—although I say this with regret—part of the problem lies now with the Ukrainian Government. They came into being with much promise of renewal and democratic process, but, as with previous Ukrainian Governments, there is constant constitutional conflict between the Prime Minister and the President. As the report recognises, the seeds of this crisis have been sown over 20 years of Ukrainian government mismanagement, but the mismanagement—if that is the right word for it—continues. Even now, and despite Minsk, the Ukrainian leadership says that the constitution should not be altered—that is code for abandoning Donetsk—and it believes that the country should join and be armed by NATO. That reads to me like a suicide note which the Ukrainian nation will not accept. At the same time, with the war receding, deep splits are being exposed in the Ukrainian power elites. These threaten stability and play to the Russian line that the country is sliding into lawlessness.
That leads me to my final point, where I would like to pick up on those parts of the report that allude to an ideal of a Ukraine transformed into an attractive civil society with a people whose energies are released—a model state, dare one say, for the region. Over the past year, the mood of the country has fluctuated through hope and disillusionment, but I see that at most levels of civil, social and economic activity there is now a widespread recognition that the country has missed the turning point that occurred, for example, in Poland some 10 years or so ago, when there was a fundamental change of direction. There are and there have been innumerable reform programmes for Ukraine on the table, but I believe that there is now a recognition that it is time to find the political will to implement some major changes, starting with legal reform—without which, in my view, there is little point attempting others. It is time that genuine mechanisms were devised and enforced so that investment funds reach the real economy.
For Ukrainians, the only incontrovertible answer to Russian pressure is to develop in their country a prosperous climate that will deliver the rule of law and economic success. That is the forward-looking, optimistic scenario on which I should conclude, but not before saying how truly honoured I am that your Lordships have welcomed me to your numbers.
Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield (CB)
My Lords, it is a great honour to be the first to congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, on his very fine maiden speech. Given his deep immersion in the questions before your Lordships this afternoon, it is a tad anxiety-inducing to be the next in line on the speakers list.
The noble Earl carries one of the most lustrous and resonant names in British political history. His great-grandfather, the last Liberal leader to preside over a wholly Liberal Government, has occupied a special place in our shared historical memory since those of us of a certain age first read Roy Jenkins’s excellent biography of HH Asquith in the mid-1960s. The noble Earl’s immensely distinguished Crown service has been rather more in the shadows than that of his great ancestor, but he has done the state some very considerable service in his diplomatic career. Although I know that he is too discreet to mention it, the noble Earl possesses a special place in intelligence history as the officer who spirited that remarkable and brave man, Oleg Gordievsky, out of Russia and into Finland in the boot of his car. I am sure that his maiden speech this afternoon is but the first flow of a cataract of wisdom and judgment to come in future debates, which we anticipate with keenness and enthusiasm.
Like so many of your Lordships, I am a child of the Cold War. Born in the late 1940s, ours was the first generation to grow up in the shadow of the bomb. We knew what those mushroom clouds over Japan in the last days of the Second World War meant—an entirely new era in international affairs. We did not need a degree in theoretical physics when we read about the H-bomb tests in the 1950s to understand that these new thermonuclear weapons were over 1,000 times more powerful than the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That the Cold War ended without general war and nuclear exchange was and remains the greatest shared boon of our lifetime. Yet here we are, in the spring of 2015, a generation after the Cold War ended, debating Russia’s capabilities and intentions, trying to read the mind of the man in the Kremlin, and worrying about the dangers inherent in escalating tensions and about the condition of the critical Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty of 1949, signed for the UK almost exactly 66 years ago by the magnificent Ernest Bevin.
There is a school of thought that the Cold War did not die, rather that it went dormant for a time. There is something in this argument. For example, the Queen’s most secret servants will tell you that the Russian intelligence service has exactly the same number of officers operating under diplomatic cover in London as it did in the mid-1980s; around 34 the last time I looked. With its deep and traditional faith in human intelligence, the Russians also keep a string of “illegals” living under deep cover in our islands, who are fiendishly difficult to detect unless they make a slip. The Queen’s underwater servants in the Royal Navy Submarine Service will tell you that the deep Cold War never really ceased and has picked up noticeably over the last few years. Indeed, I experienced a whiff of it myself in the Atlantic off Florida when witnessing a test launch of one of the Royal Navy’s Trident D5 missiles following the mid-life refit of HMS “Vigilant”. I was on board the survey surface vessel, just two and a half miles from where the missile would burst from the ocean. Another three miles beyond me, a huge Russian spy vessel dripping with electronics could be seen trying to get into the test area and being prevented from doing so by the US Coastguard. When it was all over, the captain of the Russian spy vessel came across the open channel to congratulate all of us, in a perfect Oskar Homolka English accent.
The finely judged and carefully calibrated report on the EU and Russia before us today stimulated a range of deeper memories for me and aroused one particular current anxiety. My most vivid memory is of a study of unintended East-West escalation produced by the Cabinet Office’s Joint Intelligence Committee in the weeks following the Cuban missile crisis of 1962, when we truly neared the nuclear rim in a crisis that pretty well came out of the blue—Berlin rather than Havana being the place where we thought the greatest tensions would be played out. In November 1962, the JIC defined “escalation” as,
“the process by which any hostilities, once started, might expand in scope and intensity, with or without the consent of Governments”.
There followed a passage in that JIC assessment, which the report before us today summoned from my memory. It read like this:
“Once any hostilities had started agreement on a cease-fire would involve one side or the other accepting a tactical defeat or both sides a stalemate on what must be a highly important issue. The chances of such an agreement would be better if the attacking side realised that it had miscalculated the importance to the other side of the interests involved or the will and ability of the other side to resist”.
This is exactly what happened after Mr Khrushchev covertly placed his intermediate-range ballistic nuclear missiles on Cuba.
I am not a “history repeats itself” man, but I am with Mark Twain when he said that history may not repeat itself but sometimes it rhymes. In the context of Russia, Ukraine, the EU and NATO, I think that it is the possibility of unintended escalation—of a misreading of minds, intentions and possible responses—that most worries us. In Bevin’s time, Article 5 of the NATO treaty was as powerful as it was simple. It says:
“The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all”,
and that the parties individually and in concert will take,
“such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area”.
It was that clarity and simplicity that helped keep the Cold War cold.
The framers of that treaty almost exactly 66 years ago could not have foreseen the end of the Cold War, Poland and the Baltic states as full members of NATO, and a range of unimaginable new instruments at the disposal of the Kremlin. Stalin may have possessed what we thought were 175 divisions and, from August 1949, an atomic weapon, but Putin has a gas tap and he has cyber. What kind of attack and what magnitude of damage inflicted on a near-neighbour Article 5 country would be deemed to have activated Article 5 in current circumstances?
We live in an age of what is called “ambiguous warfare”. Mr Putin is a skilled player of this; it is what he does best. His currency may be falling, his GDP shrinking and the hydrocarbon clock may be ticking long term against his oil and gas position, but this is an activity at which he excels, and it is, I suspect, a near-constant temptation for him. Yet Mr Putin, too, is a child of the Cold War. He, too, grew up in the shadow of the bomb. He knows full well what a serious Article 5 incursion would mean.
Nerves need to hold within the NATO alliance. A new containment strategy needs to be pursued for as long as is necessary. I share the Select Committee’s conclusion that firmness combined with a pursuit of a new, more co-operative relationship with Russia when possible is the way forward to prevent current anxieties and crises,
“deteriorating into something resembling the Cold War”.
It might be fraught; it will not be edifying; it will not be swift; but it is what has to be done.
The Lord Bishop of St Albans
My Lords, I add my congratulations on the maiden speech of the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, for securing this debate, which provides a valuable space in which to explore the multifaceted and fast-changing situation in the region. The EU Committee’s report has opened a welcome opportunity to reassess the UK’s relationship with both Russia and Ukraine on a bilateral level and as part of the EU.
I wish to cast my remarks in the light of the recent visit of a delegation from the World Council of Churches to Ukraine. The delegates’ visit to the Monastery of the Caves in Kiev served as a reminder of the very complex relationship of church and state power on which Rus’ was built centuries ago. Ukraine and Russia share this history. It is impossible to unravel national identities that intertwined through the polities of Kiev, Novgorod and Muscovy, and on to the present day.
With this complex interplay of identities in mind, there is a clear need for an EU strategy towards the region that extends beyond united action on sanctions. The urgency of the situation in the region is compounded by the pending association agreements with Moldova and Georgia, which could render these states vulnerable to further Russian aggression. Further, as the committee report notes:
“The historical grievance of the rights of ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia offers the Russian government a convenient pretext which could be used to justify further destabilising actions in those states”.
I echo the report’s call for more steps to be taken to facilitate access to citizenship for ethnic Russians who have long-established residency in those states but who may have limited ability in the official language. We must act now to heal fissures in society that could otherwise be exploited.
Among those whose political identity cannot be neatly delineated are the too often forgotten non-Russians who remain in Crimea. While the immediate priority for the region must be the cessation of fighting, the international community must not allow the annexation of Crimea to become tacitly legitimate. It is imperative that we continue to challenge the validity of last March’s referendum, persevering in our insistence that representatives from the OSCE be allowed into the territory.
I strongly commend the EU Committee’s attention to the importance of holding Russia to its human rights commitment. It states in recommendation 55:
“The EU and Member States must continue to raise the human rights situation in Russia in international forums and to press Russia on human rights violations in their bilateral relations. It is not sufficient for Member States to delegate this to the EU institutions”.
This commitment to ensuring equal treatment for all must also encompass a renewed effort to tackle corruption, which has already been referred to by other noble Lords and which blights the opportunities of so many. As the report states:
“Combating corruption should be an essential part of the EU-Russia relationship. Only in this way will the EU be able to prevent the theft of assets from the Russian people”.
In pressing for the observance of human rights commitments in Ukraine and Russia, the UK must look with care to the integrity of our own position. I am glad that the report presses this point by stating:
“If the UK is to retain its credibility in its criticisms of Russia on human rights, then its position would be undermined if it sought to weaken its own commitment to the Convention. Such a move would resonate in Russia in a very significant way and would be a powerful tool of propaganda for the Russian government”.
The remainder of my remarks will pertain to the report’s recommendation on continuing dialogue and exchange with Russia to avoid the entrenchment of the current conflict. As well as the importance of various cultural exchanges—the arts, language skills and other soft power—faith groups and civil society groups have a key role to play in facilitating cultural and educational co-operation.
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate in particular is uniquely positioned to show leadership in working for communication, peace, unity and reconciliation. As the majority church in Ukraine, with congregations in all parts of the country and on both sides of the lines of conflict, and having officially declared and reiterated its commitment to the territorial integrity and unity of Ukraine, the UOC has a special capacity and leadership responsibility to be a bridge over the opposing political divisions throughout the territory of Ukraine.
The All-Ukrainian Council of Churches and Religious Organizations also has a key role to play as a facilitator of peaceful ecumenical and interfaith relations, encompassing as it does almost every church tradition represented in Ukraine, as well as the Muslim and Jewish communities. The council has remained impressively united despite all the difficulties facing Ukraine at the moment.
The various denominations and faiths hold different perspectives on the origins of the conflict, but still there is great potential for the churches and faith communities of Ukraine to play a lead role in transcending the competing nationalisms that can feed conflict, by addressing the social, economic and humanitarian needs that have been compounded by the fighting. This moral leadership is backed up with civil society action, with the central role being played by churches in meeting humanitarian needs in the affected regions. It was significant that during the violence in spring 2014, St Michael’s cathedral was used as a field hospital.
The unmet need remains very great. It is important that in the midst of our debate, as people are talking about the long-term strategy in the region, we do not forget the reality of daily life for tens of thousands of Ukrainians. Many are displaced from their homes and living in shelters and temporary accommodation. With even basic infrastructure destroyed, the battle to rebuild their lives is very difficult. We need a more adequate humanitarian response to the human suffering resulting from the conflict, and to support and strengthen the efforts of the churches and faith communities of Ukraine for justice and peace.
Lord Jopling (Con)
My Lords, since I came to your Lordships’ House almost 18 years ago, I have had the great good fortune for eight of those years to sit as a member of Sub-Committee C. Those years have been among the most interesting that I have had among my colleagues here but now that most of us will be rotated under the rules from the committee, I want to say how grateful I feel to the staff and advisers who we have had in putting this report together, as well as for the quite outstanding leadership of my noble friend Lord Tugendhat.
The background to this report is of course the intolerable and outrageous behaviour by Russia in recent times. This report should be seen as a wake-up call, principally to the European Union. Our criticisms in the report are directed principally at Brussels, but also at member states’ capitals. Whatever failings we may have suggested with regard to the United Kingdom, they are overshadowed by its leadership over the years in international affairs in Europe, which is of course exemplified by our defence budget being 2% of our GDP—the largest in Europe and the fifth largest in the world.
First, I want to draw attention to Russia as it is today. In 2014, according to the most recent figures by the International Institute of Strategic Studies, the Russian defence budget was only around 12% greater than that of the United Kingdom. It has increased substantially in recent years, particularly with its nuclear capacity, which Mr Putin never fails to remind us about. A lot of that extra money has gone towards the Navy but the ground troops are visibly stretched and not fully equipped. They are not as potent a force as we may think, but they are of course capable of putting substantial numbers into shows of force and intimidating postures at the frontiers of the European Union and NATO.
That is the defence side but, on the economic side, we should not forget the parlous state of the Russian economy today. The collapse in oil prices and the rouble, and the flight of capital overseas, together with the effect of sanctions and the extra cost of the Crimean occupation, could be catastrophic for Russia. The committee heard from Mr Kasyanov, the former Prime Minister of Russia and, of course, an opponent of Putin. At a time when oil prices were around $80 a barrel, he told us that Russia could be in a major crisis in two years’ time. With oil prices now below $60 a barrel, I guess that Mr Putin must be losing quite a lot of sleep over this.
We must recognise that relatively modest conventional military resources and concerns over looming economic problems could cause Mr Putin to be at his most dangerous and unpredictable at this moment, in the difficulties in which he finds himself. So with this background, we must ask what we ought to do about this. I hope that this does not simplify it too much but the reaction of the European Union and NATO should be defined as the iron fist in the velvet glove. Above all, NATO—with, I hope, full European Union support—must make it absolutely clear that the principles of Article 5 and the commitments of NATO members that an attack on one is an attack on all, as the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, said, are a totally non-negotiable red line. Any incursion, including a cyberattack that we can pin on them, into the Baltic states or on other NATO territories must invoke a positive and immediate reaction, and he should be aware of that at this stage. NATO must work immediately to create what was defined in the Welsh summit last autumn as a readiness joint task force. We must work to create this with redoubled urgency.
Having been in Washington in the past few weeks, I would be surprised if the United States did not provide Ukraine with potent defensive equipment in the near future, although I wonder whether Ukrainian troops are capable of handling some of this weaponry. I also believe that anticipation of a crisis is better than reaction to one. So far as I am concerned, I should like to see us move more military assets closer to NATO’s eastern frontier now. We already have fighter aircraft in the Baltic states but I would not be at all averse to seeing more.
So much for the iron fist. What might be the situation with the velvet glove? The European Union’s task must now be to make every effort to convince the Russians that we wish to live in peace and harmony with them. Trying to find relationships between the European Union and the new Eurasian Economic Union is one way that one might go about it, as has been mentioned. However much they irritate us, we must make real and positive efforts to review the past and, if necessary, seek to recognise ways in which we have missed opportunities to recognise Russian interests and susceptibilities.
It is not too late to forge a new, lasting partnership with Russia. The immediate question will be whether all participants, especially in Russia but also in Kiev, will implement the Minsk II agreement. Once that agreement is firmly and permanently implemented, we can start to talk about reducing sanctions and finding ways in which we can live more happily together.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, I warmly congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith. With this debate, we have certainly played into his strong suit. I also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, and the members of the committee. They stress as a continuing theme the need to understand Russia and Russian civilisation. In our country we have lost much of that expertise, as the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, mentioned in her contribution. I recall that when we recognised this in the 1960s we set up the Hayter report, as a result of which several new posts were established in our universities. Where are they now? I understand that many of them no longer exist. We need to encourage the study of Russian and Russian civilisation.
I have two preliminary observations. This is of course a fast-moving situation. The report was ordered to be printed on 10 February, two days before the conclusion of the Minsk II agreement. Secondly, the report exposes the effect of the limit of the remit of the House of Lords European Union Committee: we do not have a foreign affairs committee so everything must be looked at through the lens of the European Union, which has meant that the report is not as rounded and comprehensive an analysis as it might have been. Hence, for example, the important NATO dimension is hardly examined in the report but it would have been had there been a foreign affairs committee, as in the other place. To be fair, the report mentions the Council of Europe, which has exercised its own sanctions in its Assembly, in that the Russian delegation has withdrawn itself.
Equally, as mentioned by the right reverend Prelate, paragraph 325 of the report contains a postscript on UK government policy on the European Convention on Human Rights. If we were to have a pick-and-choose policy in relation to the convention, that would certainly give the Russians a major precedent to pick and chose, and we would devalue any influence we might otherwise have.
A crisis of this magnitude throws important light on the principal actors in the drama. What does it tell us about Russia? Given its economic weakness, which the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, has just underlined, President Putin has played his cards with consummate skill. We must understand Russia’s fear of encirclement, its desire to end the perceived humiliation after the loss of the Soviet Union and the Soviet empire, the reaction to the anarchy of the 1990s, the search for the restoration of great power status and the pivot to the east to make up for the loss in the west. All this explains the return to traditional themes of authoritarianism, patriotism and the role of the Orthodox Church. It also exposes the weakness of our policy assumption before and after the 1990s that Russia was on a journey to western-style democracy.
On NATO expansion, many serious observers argue that Secretary James Baker gave the clear impression to Russia that, in return for recognising the independence of the Baltic states, NATO would not expand eastwards. The Istanbul summit put an end to that. I understand the Government’s case that Ukraine is a sovereign country which can choose its alliances as it will, but to join NATO would be hugely provocative to Russia. A wise course would be for President Poroshenko to recognise this and for NATO to give a similar undertaking. That is surely necessary if we wish to live in peace with Russia.
What does the crisis tell us about the West? Once military intervention has been ruled out, only sanctions and attempts to isolate Russia remain. So far, there has been a remarkable degree of consensus within the European Union but, as last week’s Council illustrated very clearly, this may well not last as President Putin is seeking to divide and conquer. It is possible that there will not be the required unanimity when we renew the current sanctions, particularly tier 3. As over Georgia, economic interests will prevail. There will be business as usual. For example, last week, we saw Russia’s incremental quasi-annexation of South Ossetia to provide a possible precedent for Donbass.
What does the crisis tell us about the UK’s role? We recall that the UK was one of the four signatories of the Budapest declaration 1994, which has now been massively breached by Russia redrawing national boundaries. The fact that we were not part of the EU team at Minsk can be construed only as a signal of our diminishing status.
How should the West respond? On the economic side, clearly we must mobilise western capital, with conditionality, for Ukraine. We should continue to assist with constitution building with the Venice commission and other groups, and particularly with proposals for decentralisation. Just as Ukraine will have to deal with Russia for energy supplies, we should aim to make progress with Russia in areas of policy of common interest. Russia apparently showed a very positive response at the pre-conference on the non-proliferation treaty. Other areas include counterterrorism, ISIL and Iran. We should maintain sanctions but be ready to ratchet down if Russia continues broadly to observe Minsk II. Overall, the trust has disappeared.
Finally, Galbraith said something like, “All foreign policy decisions involve a choice between the disastrous and the unpalatable”. It would be disastrous to provide Ukraine with US arms. Can one imagine the effect when the first Russian soldier was killed by US guns? It would, nevertheless, be unpalatable but realistic if we were to allow some time for monitoring the implementation of Minsk II.
Crimea is not mentioned in Minsk II. Surely, like it or not, it is now permanently part of Russia, symbolised by the fact that Russia is spending €3.5 billion to construct a 19-kilometre bridge that will link Crimea across the straits to what it would call its motherland, to be completed by 2018. A credible referendum held in Crimea now would probably confirm the illegal one. It is absurd for the US to argue that sanctions must remain until Russia gives up Crimea, which would mean indefinitely. Obviously the options with regard to Donbass are very difficult and different; there would have to be negotiations over the autonomy measure. It is also unpalatable to yield to Russian aggression and lies, but we shall have to live with the new, nationalist Russia: keep doors open, but sup with a longer spoon. Almost 70 years after Kennan’s historic article, we should perhaps re-examine the case for containment.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)
It is a great pleasure to hear the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, demonstrate how viable it can be to this House to have the participation in our debates of an intelligent former member of the Diplomatic Service. It has been a very long wait, I can tell you.
When I served in the embassy in Moscow, nearly 50 years ago, our boss in London, the superintending under-secretary, was a ferocious man who spoke 14 European languages and had spent the war in Moscow and Kuibyshev, where the embassies were moved when Hitler’s army got near Moscow. He demanded quite a high standard of analytical skills from those who worked for or to him, and of course in the embassy it was a sine qua non that everybody spoke Russian. Our ambassador was an extremely lucky man, because he not only spoke brilliant Russian but was lucky enough to be the brother of the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock.
That is a shameless hook on which to hang the fact that I greatly regret the news that the noble Baroness will stand down from our House this week. I speak only for myself, but I think the whole House will agree that the penetration and focus of the intelligence and judgment that she has brought to bear in our debates has been extremely striking. It used to light up both the University of Oxford and the University of Cambridge, it has lit up our debates, and we will miss her very greatly indeed.
The point in the excellent report by the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, on analytical skills is correct. The Foreign Office has lost a good deal of the expertise that Duncan Wilson and Tom Brimelow had, but it may have something to do with lack of resources; relatively speaking, and absolutely, the Foreign Office is much less well resourced now than it was then.
On the substance of the report, one has to start with Crimea. President Putin has now admitted in a public interview that he decided on 22 February last year to annex Crimea. That was three weeks before the sham referendum on the Crimean peninsula. He made up his mind even before there was any attempt to generate a grievance among the Russian speakers. The OSCE High Commissioner on National Minorities had just confirmed that there was no threat to the Russian-speaking people in Crimea. The whole excuse for annexation was manufactured.
I am not terribly happy with the Minsk agreements for many reasons, but one of them is that they say nothing about Crimea. Moreover, the European Council has, in a way, added to the problem by deciding that the sanctions would terminate in December, when the Minsk programme terminated—if one were to assume, perhaps implausibly, that the Russians carry out the full Minsk programme—so it is entirely related to action pertaining to the Donbass. What about Crimea? Is a policy of non-recognition quite enough as a response to the first major change in the post-war settlement and a breach of all our basic texts, including the Helsinki text and the Paris charter? Is it enough just to look the other way? In particular, is it enough for this country, as a signatory of the Budapest memorandum of 1994? Then, with our partners the Americans, the Ukrainians and the Russians, we committed ourselves to ensuring that the territorial integrity of Ukraine was respected, that no economic pressure was brought on Ukraine and that no violence, or threat of the use of violence, was brought against Ukraine. The Russians have clearly breached all three commitments. What do we do? Do we do nothing at all? It does not add to the credibility of such texts if we do nothing at all. The Ukrainians would not be in the fix that they are in today if they had retained the nuclear weapons that we and the Americans urged them to hand over. They handed them over in exchange for this text, but is it just a bit of paper? It has John Major’s name on it, and John Major is an honourable man. Would it not be dishonourable to do nothing about it now?
I have grave doubts about whether sanctions will do the trick. Sanctions do some damage, but the sanctions that do most damage to the Russian in the street are the counter sanctions on Russia’s imports of our western consumer goods and foodstuffs. There are shortages in the shops; the Russians see that and they blame NATO—they blame us. It has accentuated the spiral of the narrative of plucky little Russia under threat from the wicked West. I can see that if you tightened sanctions so that they actually affected the Putin inner circle, as the American sanctions do and ours do not, you might achieve more. But, frankly, I do not think that this will be done by sanctions, and it will not be done by a ceasefire, which will probably be honoured no better than it has been in the past.
We have to raise Putin’s perception of the price to him of carrying on doing what he is doing to Ukraine. We first need to convince him that we would not let Ukraine collapse economically and not let it go completely down the tubes. The report by the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, has an interesting suggestion at paragraph 282 that we call an international conference of potential donors. I do not know about that. I certainly think that it would be very good to know the Government’s view about that. The Finance Minister of Ukraine was in London yesterday seeing the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Did Mr Osborne offer any help? I do not know, but I hope that we are offering help.
On the question of arms, I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. I think we need to convince President Putin that we would not let Ukraine’s defence forces collapse. I am not arguing that we should send UK Armed Forces, and neither is President Poroshenko, but he is asking for people to send arms. If we regard Ukraine as an independent country and regard him as its legitimate leader, does he not have a right to self-defence? I have difficulty with the argument that it is provocative to the aggressor to assist the victim, and that appears to be the argument: the Russians would not like it, so let us not do it. I do not buy that argument.
I agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, said about NATO. I think that is exactly right. It needs to be clear that Article 5 means something to us. I entirely agree with that, but I disagree with those in the US Congress who argue that we now need to see tactical nuclear weapons deployed in the Baltic states and in Poland. That seems to me very rash. We should stick to the 1996 NATO position that there is no plan, intention or reason for the forward deployment of tactical nuclear forces.
Conversely, I think that the Americans were wrong as regards the 2008 NATO communiqué and the invitation to Ukraine and Georgia to join the alliance. That was a mistake. It would be good to make it clear to all parties that it is a dead letter, that NATO’s invitation is not currently open, and that the Ukrainian regime is not currently seeking such an invitation. If that could be codified in some way, it might contribute to finding a solution, because I do not think that the solution lies in ceasefires or sanctions but in finding a settlement. One needs to find out what President Putin wants and see to what extent that is compatible with what is right for Ukraine—a judgment for President Poroshenko.
The committee is right to suggest that there is a dialogue to be had between the Eurasian Economic Union and the EU. It is also right to suggest that the President of the European Council, the former Prime Minister of Poland, has a very important part to play in this, not just operationally but given that he is who he is.
There is one last thing for us to do that is really rather important. I apologise to the noble Lord opposite for carrying on, but I did speak about general matters for a moment or two at the start of my speech. Yesterday, I was surprised to note that the Prime Minister’s Statement on the European Council did not mention the first, and for most members of the European Council the most important, matter discussed at that Council, which takes up a third of the Council’s conclusions: the plans for energy union. These will be extremely difficult and may well end up much less ambitious than the original Commission plans, but this is the real way to respond to an aggressive Kremlin. We need to reduce the perceived dependence on energy from Russia. Actually, we are not dependent on it; Russia is dependent on us. It needs to sell to us, and that need is greater than our need to buy from it. But in some member states, particularly Austria and Hungary, the pressure of the energy link is working perversely as regards the interests of the European Union and Ukraine, so I would say that one of the most important things to do is to press on with energy interconnection, both electricity and gas, and get as far as we can get, realistically, with an energy union.
Lord Trimble (Con)
My Lords, I have the pleasure of being a member of the sub-committee that produced this report and it is only right that I should start by echoing the praise addressed to the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, for his chairmanship of it, and to the staff who helped so much in producing the report.
It is also a pleasure to have been here for the maiden speech of the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, who referred to the turning point for Poland many years ago. Going back to the immediate post-Soviet period, Belarus, rural Ukraine and Poland were all much of a muchness in economic prosperity. However, in the years since, Ukraine has not developed much and Belarus has managed a little, but Poland has surged ahead enormously and is now many times more prosperous than those other two countries. That example was instrumental in fuelling the protest in Ukraine that led to the change of regime and the turning point in its orientation between Russia and western Europe. We then saw Putin realising that, against that shift, he had little chance of seeing again an Administration in Kiev that would be malleable from his point of view. He proceeded to try to minimise his losses by being revenged on Ukraine and trying to ensure that it was destabilised—at best, by another frozen conflict; at worst, perhaps by the scenario that the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, pointed out. That is very much the background.
Reference was made to the first thing that Putin did, which was the operation in Crimea. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, reminded us that Putin has confessed that he had planned that long before his Crimean referendum, which has also been rightly criticised in this debate. I remind Members that another referendum took place at the time of the break-up of the Soviet bloc. It was held by the Ukrainian Government, on whether Ukraine should become independent. At that point, the USSR still existed. The referendum was held on 1 December 1991; 84% of the population voted and 90% were in favour of independence. However, the interesting figures were in the Luhansk oblast, where the vote for independence exceeded 83%. In neighbouring Donetsk, it reached almost 77%. Even in Crimea, more than 54% voted in favour of independence. In Sevastopol, the figure was 57%. Those areas have a significant Russian-speaking population and, in 1991, when faced with the question of whether Ukraine should leave the USSR and create an independent state, there were clear majorities that were well above the percentage in the Scottish referendum. That is something we need to bear in mind.
I turn to the committee’s report. Possibly one of the most crucial observations in the recommendations is in paragraph 168, which states that,
“the EU and Member States face a strategic question of whether Europe can be secure and prosperous if Russia continues to be governed as it is today”.
It goes on to say that Russia has created a,
“geopolitical competition in the neighbourhood”,
and:
“The EU’s capacity to influence the internal politics of Russia is limited, and Member States have not demonstrated an appetite to make the attempt. Therefore, if influencing Russia’s future governance is not on the agenda, Member States instead need to devise a robust and proactive policy to manage competition with Russia in the shared neighbourhood”.
The report goes on:
“The first step is … to distinguish between the legitimate and the illegitimate security interests of Russia”,
stating that Russia,
“has a right not to be excluded from the eastern neighbourhood. However, it does not have the right to deny or threaten the sovereign rights of its neighbours”.
That should very much be the starting point of one’s approach.
As to the subsequent steps, I find myself in agreement with the noble Lords, Lord Jopling and Lord Kerr: the first priority is to deter future aggression. We were hoping for a ceasefire in Ukraine and hope that there will be no further action, but it is hugely important that we deter, and put sufficient resources in key places to deter. It is interesting that we are discussing this having heard a Statement about the Falkland Islands, one element of which concerned making sure that there is effective deterrence there. I had jotted down the Baltics and the Balkans as places we should prepare to deter Putin from. I had not thought that the Falklands would come into the frame so quickly and we will no doubt hear more about that. However, in the Baltic states, and possibly in the Balkans, we need sufficient forces on the ground to up the bar for Putin so much that he is deterred from aggression.
The question will arise about the nature of the support that we give to Ukraine, which is very much the position that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, spelled out. Clearly, we need to give it substantial economic and financial support. We should do what we can to turn it into a stable and prosperous state. The EU does that quite well and it ought to make it its priority in this case, whereas deterrence is clearly the priority for NATO action. However, in addition to improving the economy, that will be extremely difficult if Russia continues with its programme of destabilisation.
The question then arises of what further support we give. Here I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, about supplying various degrees of military support. That has to be looked at and done carefully, but there is no reason to believe that it cannot be done effectively. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, commented on the capacity of the Ukrainian forces to handle that. Not so long ago, I heard a person with considerable military experience refer to some of the assistance that the US has already given to Ukraine. In particular, it has given a radar system that will detect the use of mortars, so that the Ukrainians can work out exactly where the mortars are being fired from and adjust accordingly. This military gentleman praised the skill with which the Ukrainian forces had used it, but they do not yet have a counter battery capacity, which would return fire at the mortars. That is possibly the next step to consider, but I leave that to others, particularly in view of the hour.
Finally, we have heard a lot of nuclear sabre-rattling from the Russians. They have done this consistently over the last year or two, dropping hints and reminders of their nuclear capability. It even happened yesterday, with some threats directed towards Denmark and the Danish navy. This very much worries me, because it is the sort of thing where mistakes can happen. If the Russians keep talking about their nuclear capability, they might talk themselves into doing something foolish. Deterrence there is of the normal form, but I very much hope that we find other ways of getting through to the Russians the message that this is a step that should never be taken.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart (LD)
I begin by congratulating my colleague and noble friend Lord Oxford and Asquith on a most penetrating speech. It was very helpful that he brought his own experience and knowledge to this debate. I hope that we will hear more from him as these problems develop. I cannot think that they will go away immediately. I also want to express the sense of privilege that I had to serve on Sub-Committee C in preparing this report. I thank the clerk, the policy adviser and, above all, our chairman for his very persistent work in producing what I think is one of the best reports that has emerged from the European Union Select Committee.
The crisis that we face in the deterioration of relations between the EU and Russia has to be acknowledged and acted on. It is not entirely due to Russia. In my opinion it has overreacted to issues that we have given rise to. We heard evidence—it was reported most knowledgeably by Rory Stewart MP—that the Foreign Office has downgraded its capacity in Moscow, and indeed in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office itself. We also heard that that had happened with the EU representatives in Moscow. It seems that we have blundered into this mess through failure to recognise what was happening in Russia.
The breakdown of the Soviet Union was enormously humiliating to the political class in Russia, but also to the citizenry. The citizenry has been appealed to by the political leaders. We have seen the troubles in Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Georgia, Transnistria, and Nagorno-Karabakh and have not reacted strongly enough to them. It is not suitable now to neglect the Crimea as something that has been achieved or set back. My daughter, who is a film-maker, was in Ukraine three months before the balloon went up. She made a film about Ukraine and the Crimea that was, in some sense, a documentary. It demonstrated the great love the Russians have for the Crimea and how, over the generations, they have built up their connections in stone. It was shown at the British Film Institute after the explosion and I think it was very observant.
We do not seem to have had a sufficiently coherent response to what has been going on in Russia. One of the pieces of evidence that we gained when we were in Brussels was how the trade department had not kept the political departments fully aware of the development of the association agreement with Ukraine; the AA took the observers by surprise in Europe. That was a failure of the European Union’s structure. It is also clear that Russia has been very concerned about its security.
It seems to me that we should have been engaging in constant dialogue with Russia about those matters in which we share an interest. The partnership and co-operation agreement has, of course, been suspended now, which is a great misfortune. The involvement of Russia with our interests is clearer. In 2013 the natural gas imports from Russia to the European Union were 39% of its requirements. We should have had more engagement with the setting up of the Eurasian union and we should have got to grips more with the Eastern Partnership and the six countries of the former Soviet Union. We have been too slow to reappraise our relationship and that, I think, is well brought out by the report.
How can we get back into dialogue? I agree with those who say that we cannot abandon sanctions or the pressure that we are putting on Russia so long as it is prepared to split up sovereign nations. However, there are many matters in which we could engage. We can develop a sense that we have a common interest in a security architecture and in resolving the economic problems that are afflicting both the eurozone and Russia. Because of our and its membership of the Council of Europe, we can discuss the European Convention on Human Rights. We can pick up Putin’s assertion in 2010 that he wanted to see an economic space from Lisbon to Vladivostok. I think he actually meant that co-operation was to be thought about. We must also remember that culture, education and science are things that we have in common, and we must appeal to the citizenry of Russia in continuing to cement our dialogue. We do not want Russia to feel drawn increasingly to the East and out of contact with the West. That, it seems to me, is the priority that we have to face now.
The Earl of Sandwich (CB)
My Lords, we must all deplore the tragic loss of life caused by Russia’s invasion of Crimea and its infiltration into eastern Ukraine and, before that, Transnistria and two areas of Georgia, flouting international law. Nothing that is said today about mistakes by the EU or ourselves can take away from the brutal actions of the present Russian Government. Many, many Russians have opposed the latest invasion—some were parents of fallen soldiers—but they have been silenced by oppression and propaganda. That is why I welcome this debate, having served on the committee, and I warmly thank the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, for his patient chairmanship.
This debate could be called Russia’s nimby because the essence of it is the extent to which Europeans should intrude—or, to put it more politely, be invited—into Russia’s back yard. Historically, we Europeans should perhaps have learnt our lessons and realised that the great bear was bound to growl and lash out the moment any smarter, smaller animals approached him. But of course there is also a clash of civilisations. We in the European Union are naturally proud of ours. We think that we have got the human condition about right and that the Copenhagen criteria of justice and the rule of law should eventually suit everyone in the world. What else, we say, are the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or the European convention for if they are not statements of global faith? Universality for many liberal-minded people now is not even debatable.
However, we have to acknowledge that there are degrees of awareness and belief. There are Europeans in Russia and Russians in Europe, all with very different standpoints. Mrs Thatcher’s simple test was to ask whom one could do business with. If we are selling our house to an oligarch, presumably we are not in the least concerned about his attitude to human rights, but if he proposes marriage to one of our family then we begin to be concerned about his motives. I believe that we should make much more effort to understand Russia’s point of view. The Russians say that the EU has been treating Russia as though it was a prospective EU candidate—I quote from the evidence—
“prepared to sacrifice its interests and sovereign rights for the sake of future membership”.
I think the committee accepted that there is some truth in that.
At the end of the Cold War, there were genuine overtures on both sides and discussions of Russia’s future—if not within the EU, at least in harmony with what the EU was doing. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, described that era. Then, after Yeltsin in 2000, the scene changed again and this is where we say that the EU and its member states were “sleep-walking”. I stand by that phrase.
The importance of the new Commission’s review of its neighbourhood policy, coming up in May, is that it inevitably includes countries such as Ukraine which are already within the Russian sphere of influence. As the heroes of the Maidan in Kiev argued a year ago, the EU brings potential economic and social benefits, depending on the reforms that must pave the way. In Ukraine, especially, alongside Russia’s influence there are equally powerful religious beliefs and cultural traditions which come down from Poland and Austria and which are entirely European, as there are, it can be argued, with French and other influences within Russia, so on that score the nimby theory breaks down very quickly.
Time should be a healer, but how rapidly we seem to move on from our universal belief. We are already forgetting about Crimea. The OSCE has just cancelled a photographic exhibition in Vienna marking the anniversary of the Crimean invasion. The Ukrainians cannot believe that the West, having condemned Russia’s military action so recently, should now even disown the photographer.
The situation in Georgia, seven years after the war with Russia, remains very serious. There is considerable uncertainty in Abkhazia and South Ossetia over the borders, visas, the use of language, Russian subsidies and many other critical issues. I visited Georgia last July just after the signing of the new association agreement. I know that the agreement still promises economic and trading advantages, but trade has stagnated, tourism is still suffering and the political scene is fragile following the reshuffle of Ministers.
In our report we said that we should look forward to renewed EU dialogue with Russia, and this is now being bravely led by Chancellor Merkel. We should build upon our mutual interests in foreign policy, such as the nuclear negotiations with Iran and possible ways forward in Syria. We should recognise our strong cultural ties and the value of educational exchanges. The right reverend Prelate mentioned the importance of churches and non-governmental organisations. All these must be rebuilt. We should also take part at some level in the 70th anniversary commemorations in May. I hope that the Minister will clarify what will be happening then.
It is conventional to say that we have been well served by the staff. However, more than that, we have depended on the skills and expertise of our clerks, Roshani Palamakumbura, Sarah Jones and, before her, Julia Labeta, and our adviser Dr Samuel Greene. To all of them we owe a debt alongside the gratitude that we owe to our chairman.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)
My Lords, as a member of Sub-Committee C, I join with colleagues in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, for his great skill as a chairman and his patience in guiding us to our conclusions. It was not always easy as there was a certain amount of division in the committee. I also pay tribute to our policy advisers, Sarah Jones and Roshani Palamakumbura, and our adviser Sam Greene.
I join in the general condemnation of Russia’s and Mr Putin’s actions. He runs a paranoid regime, where his opponents are imprisoned and critics harassed or worse. The annexation of Crimea was illegal and an explicit denial of Russia’s promise to respect its neighbour’s territorial integrity. It is obvious, too, that Mr Putin, in exchanges, has not acknowledged or told the truth about his country’s involvement in eastern Ukraine. However, having said that, the actions of a state—even an authoritarian state—are rarely the consequences of one person, and, in the few minutes that I have, I would like to explore precisely why Russia has reacted as it has done.
Lord Salisbury, the great Victorian Prime Minister, once remarked that the first evil in diplomacy was war and the second evil was an obvious diplomatic triumph. He presumably meant that the latter often sows the seeds of the former. People often quote Mr Putin’s remark that the dissolution of the Soviet Union was the greatest disaster of the 20th century, as though that in itself was a sinister observation. I suspect that many people in Russia share that sentiment, not because of any great attachment to communism but because of the economic pain and the chaos that followed.
Robert Gates, the US Defence Secretary under George W Bush and also under President Obama, said:
“When Russia was weak in the 1990s and beyond, we did not take Russian interests seriously. We did a poor job of seeing the world from their point of view, and of managing the relationship for the long term”.
While we were taking evidence in our committee, we heard much argument over whether assurances were or were not given to Russia in the past about the expansion of NATO. Sir Rodric Braithwaite, the former UK ambassador to Russia, was quite emphatic that such assurances were given. He provided the dates and the names of the people who were present, including himself, and said that these assurances were confirmed in Foreign Office documents. Whether these assurances were given or whether a different interpretation can now be placed on them because circumstances have changed, it is clear that the Russians were deeply unnerved by the expansion of NATO.
This was not a view expressed only by President Putin: it goes back to President Yeltsin, who, in 1995, at the time of NATO’s bombing of Serbia said:
“This is the first sign of what could happen when NATO comes right up to the Russian Federation’s borders … The flame of war could burst out across the whole of Europe”.
In 2008, President Putin warned that including Ukraine or Georgia in NATO membership, as had been proposed at a summit in Bucharest, would be perceived as a direct threat to Russia.
Extraordinarily and ironically, George Kennan, the US diplomat and the architect of western containment of the Soviet Union, expressed his anxiety in 2008 after the first round of NATO expansion. He said:
“I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely, and it will affect their policies … I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else”.
We may regard NATO as a defensive alliance, but it was originally aimed against Russia. Security can be a zero-sum game: one person’s security is another person’s insecurity.
Perhaps we do not sufficiently appreciate what a big decision it was when Russia allowed Ukraine to declare its independence. Russia was giving up a territory with which it had the most profound emotional and spiritual links, going back 1,000 years to the time when Kiev was the first Orthodox capital of the country.
We in the West and in the EU say that we do not recognise spheres of influence. Does this really accord with history and the realities of the world today? Try telling that to Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua or Bolivia. For Russia, of course, EU associate arrangements were the stepping stone to full EU membership, which it saw in many cases as leading to full NATO membership.
When we were taking evidence, we heard plenty of criticism of the EU’s handling of the proposed association agreement and comprehensive free trade agreement with Ukraine. Insufficient consideration appears to have been given by the Commission to the tension between the free trade agreement and Mr Putin’s proposed Eurasian Customs Union. Some officials who appeared before us admitted that almost no thought had been given to Russia and the effect on the Russian economy, and that there had been little contact with Russia even though the impact on the Russian economy was potentially considerable.
We may not like Moscow’s position, but it is not difficult to understand the logic. Ukraine is a huge expanse of flat land that Napoleon and the Nazis crossed in order to invade Russia. Ukraine is seen by Russia as a buffer state of enormous strategic importance. After President Yanukovych was removed, proposals were put forward in the Ukrainian Parliament to cancel the Russian lease on the naval base in Crimea. Russia would have lost access to the warm waters of the Mediterranean, and it allowed President Putin to speculate about having a western base in Crimea.
We all know about Winston Churchill’s speech in 1939 about Russia being a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. However, he also said:
“It cannot be in accordance with the interests of the safety of Russia that”,
the West,
“should plant itself on the shores of the Black Sea”.
Churchill would have understood Russian fears—even if they were illusions—about its base in Crimea.
I have concentrated on viewing the situation from a Russian point of view because it needs doing. However, we have to deal with the situation as it is: to understand is not to forgive. I support the imposition of sanctions. I agree that if there is not further progress, sanctions should be increased. I agree that we should stand by our Article 5 commitments. It is important that Minsk 2 should be upheld. This applies to Mr Putin and, equally, to Mr Poroshenko and the Government in Kiev. They should not be allowed to add new conditions to the agreement.
There are other things that we should be doing and encouraging. First, we need to consider devolution—even asymmetric devolution—within Ukraine. Secondly, we need to fashion an economic rescue plan for the country, funded jointly by the EU, the IMF, Russia and the United States. Lastly, and most importantly, the West should agree to Ukraine as a buffer between NATO and Russia, akin to Austria’s position in the Cold War. We should publicly rule out NATO expansion to include either Georgia or Ukraine.
We need a prosperous Ukraine—one that cannot be presented as a threat to Russia and one that will allow the West to repair its relationship with Moscow. We need Russia for many different issues and it is in all our interests to find a solution that enables us once again to have a better relationship with Russia and end this tragic situation.
Lord Soley (Lab)
My Lords, I have congratulated the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, his committee and staff before on an excellent report. It should be read in conjunction with the excellent recent report on soft power from the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Howell. The two link up rather well.
I rather take the view, as the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, said, that we need to understand the Russian position, but I also strongly take the view that when you understand bad behaviour and its origins you do not justify it. The noble Lord made that point in a single line. It is very important. It is easy to look back on Russian history in the 20th century and see what a disastrous history it was: two world wars, famine, dictatorship, failed revolution, collapse into ignominy in the later part of the century. Russia is not a country you would have wanted to have been born into in the 20th century.
Just as that is true, the other side of the same coin is that you would not have wanted to have been born in one of the eastern European states that were occupied by the Soviet Union or, as those states saw it, by Russia. Indeed, I remember seeing groups of German troops in what was then East Germany, and a large group of armed Russian troops a few hundred yards down the road. That was common throughout, because those countries were held in occupation, and what they remember is not only the occupation but the failed revolutions, whether in Hungary or Czechoslovakia, and the brutality with which they were put down. They also remember, and this is particularly true of Ukraine, the mass famines and deportations that were driven both by the Nazis and by the Russian communists. In other words, there is an appalling history in this belt of countries that makes it easy to understand why they are behaving as they are.
As I say, understanding behaviour is not the same thing as condoning it, so it is also important to recognise that this is an incredibly difficult area for the world to address and one that in my view, as I have said before in the House, is profoundly dangerous precisely because it is difficult to predict how it is going to develop. Several people have said that they think that Mr Putin is a skilled strategist. I do not think he is, but he is extremely good on tactics. I am deeply worried. In what I thought was a rather perceptive speech, the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, hinted that the problem of Russia under Putin is that there is not really a strategy that in the long run will be beneficial either to Russia or to the other countries in the region. It is a profoundly dangerous strategy, because at the very least it will blow up into a major conflict in one area or another.
One of the problems driving Russia at the moment, and to which many speakers have referred, is that of nationalism. Mr Putin is a strong nationalist. The problem with nationalism is that if you use your Russian populations in the border areas, as has been done in Ukraine, you cannot necessarily control them. The noble Baroness on the Front Bench who is to respond to the debate for the Government will know that I was saying some years ago that there could be no peace settlement in Syria because Putin would not allow it until Assad was winning. That has turned out to be true. It is true not because there is necessarily some wickedness in Putin, but because he believes that all this is about the loss of Russian world power and Russian nationalism, which are so important to him. That very nationalism is dangerous. It is also out of kilter with what is happening in the rest of the world.
One thing which the report brings out so well, and which is probably the central message that I would like to re-emphasise, is that the European Union does not have a clear strategy for how to deal with this. In fact, what troubles me, and as the report indicates, there are divisions growing within Europe. People have mentioned Hungary, but I am not sure what is going to happen with Greece at the moment—something that has been mentioned outside this House. One can see that there is the danger of a certain fragmentation of a coherent policy within the European Union, and it is obviously in Mr Putin’s interests to play on that. He would like to see greater disintegration, if you like, within the European Union and NATO.
That raises the question: how can we in the European Union make sure that we have a common policy towards Russia? When people say to me, “Oh, at the end of that road there is a common foreign policy and a common defence policy, and that will lead to a European nation state”, perhaps the first thing I would say is that history tends to indicate that a severe external threat often creates a united state in some form. Indeed, we need only look back to the origins of the United Kingdom to see how we created a nation state out of four separate nations in large part because of threats from outside of what were then religious wars. We do not have to go down the road of a common European foreign and defence policy, but my goodness we really do have to have a clear strategy towards what Mr Putin is doing in Russia.
This is not just about the issues in Ukraine; there are issues along several of the boundary areas. It is also about the corruption in Russia. It is about the fact that polonium-210 can be transported from a nuclear reactor somewhere in Russia across to Moscow and then to London, be used to poison a person, and go back again with no action taken by that Government. It is the whole issue of the Russian policy of trying to push at boundaries in a way that is destabilising not just for Europe but for the rest of the world. That is one of the reasons why I rather like the recommendation made in paragraph 282 that we should organise an international conference to help Ukraine not only on economic regeneration but on dealing with the corruption that is inherent within Ukraine itself, because that has been part of the problem. We need to do that not just in the European context but externally. I really do not believe that some of the other emerging great powers—India, China, South Africa, Brazil—think that it is a good idea to have a major power changing borders by force. They certainly do not think that it is a good idea to get a power to give up its nuclear weapons, as Ukraine did in 1994, and then start dismembering that country. What does that do for nuclear disarmament anywhere? It is a profoundly serious problem.
I have great respect for the Russians, but a danger pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, with regard to sanctions is that one of the things that drives Putin is his belief that the West is decadent, whereas Russia can suffer bravely and with courage. That is what sanctions do. I do not have an alternative and I think that we have to impose sanctions—I strongly support them at the moment—but we need to recognise how intensely serious this issue is.
To my mind, the problem of how we deal with Mr Putin’s Russia is a greater threat to world peace than what is happening in the Middle East. The Middle East is actually containable; Russia is not containable, and at best this situation has the makings of a new Cold War drifting into the future. It is not easy, but I will say this to the noble Baroness who is going to respond for the Government: please can we start doing all we can within the European Union to get a clear and coherent strategy on our foreign policy reaction to Russia and to the dangers in the border areas? There are answers; they are far too complex to deal with in my final minute, but they are there and they need to be developed in full.
Lord Owen (Ind SD)
My Lords, I have an important interest to declare, which is that I have been involved in business in Russia since 1995. I started that in the belief, which I still hold, that it is through commercial interchange that eventually we will restore some of the optimism about Russia’s future that many in this House have had for a number of years, although we have certainly found ourselves and our judgment somewhat questioned by the experiences in Ukraine.
We have heard two outstanding speeches. The maiden speech of the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, was quite remarkable and I find myself agreeing with almost all of his analysis. I have watched his career with great interest for some decades. He certainly does great service to the memory of his great-grandfather, whom I have been writing about with interest in The Military Conversations of 1906-1914. We look forward to hearing much more from the noble Earl. The other speech that I found myself agreeing with—we do not always agree on these matters—was that of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. His words on sanctions are well worth careful scrutiny. We often embark on sanctions with the best of wishes and intentions, but unfortunately they can yield poor results and they often produce the very effects that we do not want, particularly in the country that is most affected by them. In this case, a great many countries are affected.
All the members of the committee deserve to be congratulated on the report and on the tone that they have brought to this discussion. It is very different from the tone of discussion, I dare say, in another place and particularly in the newspapers of this country. We have to change that. We have to develop a much greater understanding of the complexity of the issues and we must do so fairly urgently.
What is Britain’s role? Paragraph 82 of the recommendations and conclusions says:
“As one of the four signatories of the Budapest Memorandum (1994), which pledged to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity, the UK had a particular responsibility when the crisis erupted. The Government has not been as active or as visible on this issue as it could have been”.
That is a matter of great regret. During the crisis inside Ukraine and in Kiev, the French, German and Polish Foreign Ministers went into negotiations. In the light of the fact that, no sooner was the ink dry on that agreement, it was effectively torn up in front of everybody’s eyes, it may have been quite a good thing that we were not involved in that rather deplorable example of EU negotiations, but staying out of that particular involvement carried with it our then acquiescing in what I think was the brave and necessary involvement of the President of France and the Chancellor of Germany in direct negotiations with Ukraine and Russia.
This country has a responsibility to try to find a way of dealing, in international law, with the annexation of Crimea. This will not be changed, probably for a number of years, but we need to lead the discussion, because eventually it will have to be changed. Of course, if Ukraine and Russia can reach an agreement, it will be settled in international law. That is probably the most desirable outcome and it eventually will have to be part of such an agreement. But to help that process we should point to the necessity of a wider discussion—widening it means that it is always easier to reach agreement—and indicate that one area that could be brought into that discussion is the question of Moldova and Transnistria. Putting that into the international discussions over the annexation of Crimea would be sensible. There is a lot to be said for widening this to all the disputed areas and boundaries in and around Europe and central Asia, which will come back to haunt us if we do not settle them.
Among the other aspects that have been raised in this debate, a great deal has been said about this whole issue of why Russia feels encircled. History shows us exactly the same: if you look to the origins of the 1914 war, there is no question but that encirclement was a big factor. It was felt not just by Russia at various stages but by Germany and by other countries. We need to respect that in international affairs.
One person who does not carry much weight these days in Russia is Mikhail Gorbachev. There is no doubt, in my judgment, that he can fairly claim that, with the full might of the Soviet Union behind him, he could have clamped down and there would have been no unification of East and West Germany. There has been some correspondence recently in the Guardian, on 6 and 9 March, with a NATO spokesman claiming, unwisely I think, to interpret Mikhail Gorbachev’s actual position. Gorbachev was under no illusion during the negotiations that went on following the fall of the Berlin Wall and throughout that period that his sensitivities on behalf of Russia—historic sensitivities—were going to be respected. Reference has been made to Ambassador Braithwaite’s assessment, which I value and trust greatly. More importantly, one should go to the text of the main spokesman for the West, President George Bush Senior, who made important statements and conducted one of wisest pieces of diplomacy in relation to the United States and Russia that we have seen for 50 years. His Secretary of State, James Baker, also made commitments. You cannot tear these up or ignore them, although they are not an excuse. Gorbachev said about the present crisis:
“One of its causes, though not the only one”—
an important reservation—
“is the unwillingness of our western partners to take account of Russia’s point of view, legitimate interests and security. Verbally, they applauded Russia, especially during the Yeltsin years, but in deeds they took no account of it. I am thinking mainly of Nato’s enlargement, the plans to deploy a missile shield, and the west’s actions in areas important to Russia (Yugoslavia, Iraq, Georgia, Ukraine). They literally told us: it’s not your business. As a result an abscess built up, and burst”.
We must return to this area to try to find our way through these difficult questions.
The contribution of those who have said that Russia has to be part of the solution is also important. The economic strength of Ukraine has to be built up, but it will not be built up just by relying on EU disbursals, the IMF or anybody else. Russia has an interest in Ukraine: it will invest there and will need to become a partner in investment. It is not going to be easy; it will be very difficult to break down the hatreds, almost, that have emerged in the last few years between people in Ukraine and Russia who previously worked evenly and well together. It will take time.
I suggest that Britain’s role is strategic. At the time, I was not keen on the decision at the NATO summit in Chicago to continue with dual-capable aircraft. In retrospect, I believe that it was a wise decision. I agree with those who have said that there is no case for these aircraft to be deployed now to new NATO members, but I believe that Britain should take a very active part in the whole of that issue and discussion. We may have a role to play. That whole aspect of NATO’s strategy has to be looked at again, but we should not consider deploying such aircraft in sensitive areas. These are issues to which we will return.
Baroness Neville-Jones (Con)
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in congratulating the committee on an excellent report and add my voice to those who have paid tribute to the first-class contribution to our debate from the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith.
Recent contributors to this debate have emphasised that Russia has legitimate interests. There is no argument about that, but the question in my mind is whether President Putin is a respectable and representative bearer of those interests and whether he deserves the kind of co-operation and regard that I think all of us would like to give to the Russian state. My reluctant conclusion—the evidence seems to me to bear this out—is that it is very difficult to deal with this man on terms that one would regard as honest and straight- forward. He has a track record of oppressing his neighbours. There is no good reason, and no provocation from the West, that could justify what happened in Georgia and the proclamation of the so-called independence of the enclaves of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, for which, I might say, we simply gave him a rap on the knuckles.
He has developed, not just in theory but in action, doctrines of spheres of influence. You can argue about their legitimacy, but the fact is that he has used them to oppress his neighbours and to override the sovereign rights of inhabitants of other countries. He has arrogated to himself the right to protect Russian-speakers irrespective of their citizenship. He has a track record of fairly aggressive activity.
At home, he has shown himself to be a very revisionist authoritarian. He has suppressed domestic opposition, built up military force and drummed up a nationalist agenda which now provides the background against which he can maintain his domestic popularity. He has not concealed this. I do not disagree with those who say that we should nevertheless have regard to Russian interests, but we must do something more effective than we have done so far about his preferred methodology of pursuing his agenda: propaganda, subversive activity in neighbouring countries and skilfully devised irregular military action which is carefully calibrated not to trigger any specific article of the Washington treaty. As a result, we have found it very difficult to deal with him.
He has obviously been encouraged by the inability of NATO Governments to devise a credible response. I say to those who think that the wise thing to do would be now to rule out NATO membership for either Georgia or Ukraine that they should think of two things: first, the destabilising effect that that statement would have in those countries, which also have interests in the matter; secondly, would Putin really regard this as fair dealing? I think he would regard it as an immense prize, enabling him to gobble up these countries even more effectively. I would be against any such declaration. It is a separate issue whether we pursue actively their membership of NATO and I would certainly not be in favour of that in the present circumstances.
We have to recognise that Putin has demonstrated determination that Ukraine should not be allowed to move westwards—it is part of the area that he wants to keep under his control and in which he can actively interfere. We have been proposing that the possibility of European Union membership should be available to Ukraine. Not only does Putin oppose Ukraine’s membership of NATO, it is increasingly clear that he does not like the implications of an association agreement or of membership of the European Union. I do not think that we can allow those policies or attitudes to stand. The Ukrainians have a right to fashion their own destiny.
As a result of the present situation, we face some fairly unattractive choices. Obviously, one of them is a result of what has happened in eastern Ukraine—to match force with force. That would be disproportionately risky and I would not support it at all. But I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that we should actively consider the sale of weapons that will increase the defensive capability of the Ukrainians. I cannot see why they should be put in a position where they are outgunned and outmanoeuvred by separatist forces in part of the country.
These are all calculated risks. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, also mentioned something that I very strongly agree with; that is, the consequences of the failure of the Budapest memorandum. That has very wide consequences for those who wish to promote, as I would like to see it, a reduction in nuclear proliferation and, indeed, encouraging countries to go non-nuclear. What conclusions do you draw if the result of giving up your nuclear weapons is to be invaded?
The Kiev Government face a difficult task, politically and psychologically. Ukraine has not been a successful country so far and they are now faced with the extraordinarily difficult task of fulfilling their side of the Minsk agreement, which demands that they do certain things, without having full control over the situation on the ground or much certainty that anything liberalising that they do will actually bear fruit. But they have to make the effort and it should be a high priority of western policy, including of our own country, to help them in this task. The Government’s initiative in proposing a good governance fund is excellent, although it will need resources from other countries and a much wider effort on the part of EU member states, along with international agencies, to accelerate the economic development of Ukraine.
Finally, what about future policy towards Russia? We do need one, as the noble Lord, Lord Soley, rightly said. We need to keep open the door to a more constructive relationship in a post-Putin world—I fear it is going to be a post-Putin world—and, as far as we can, we should try to prevent the spread of antagonism into other areas of policy. We have a strong interest in not having overspill but we must signal the unacceptability of current Russian policy in Europe. I agree that sanctions are not an end in themselves and will not do the whole job but I do not think that we can do anything but continue to signal our disapproval and they have to stay in place, at least until the fulfilment of the Minsk agreement. I hope this will be on time, although I admit that I am not optimistic.
We need to learn some lessons. We need to work against the Russian hardliners, as was said yesterday, projecting our understanding of the world and our values in a sophisticated and well resourced information strategy, which the European Union ought to engage in. We ought to do something about defence. The decisions taken recently by NATO at the Wales summit are a beginning but they are only a beginning, and it is right that we included cyberattack as coming within the purview of Article 5. We need more rapid implementation than we are getting at the moment and NATO needs to revive its almost defunct military planning capability. We need to look at security in the round.
The most recent UK national security strategy did not have European security as a focus. That has to change. European security and the defence of our dependent territories are surely the meat and potatoes of British defence and foreign policy, and we must not allow other threats to our security—I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Soley; they are not equally deadly—to distract us from the importance of ensuring the security of our own continent. Of course, there is a wider scope to this in the fringes of our continent, which are also increasingly in flames. The capabilities we need cannot be realised for less than the 2% undertaking to NATO. I hope that the Government will stop messing about on this subject, which damages their credibility and undermines the confidence that our allies have in this country.
Lord Cromwell (CB)
My Lords, I declare my interests in this part of the world as represented in the register, and I join the many people who have already congratulated the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, on a speech that was both deft and comprehensive. It covered almost all the points that I wished to make and certainly everything I wished to agree with. I look forward to hearing a great deal more from him. I welcome this report and found much in it to agree with. I managed to find a few points that I would like to add.
First, Mr Putin is a creature of the post-Cold War world and, unwelcome though it may be to hear it, the West carries some responsibility for creating the conditions that brought him to prominence. Much has been said today and elsewhere about how the West mishandled relationships with Russia. I do not propose to rehearse all that again in detail now. In brief, Russia—humiliated, isolated and increasingly turbulent, and not least as it experienced a very sudden loss of empire—responded to a person who offered a return to strength and respect. To an extent, he has succeeded. But in doing so he has stifled civil society, established total control of the media that shapes public opinion, suborned the judiciary and the rule of law, and embarked on a series of aggressive external adventures, of which Ukraine is but the latest.
Today President Putin, working through a very small clique, is almost synonymous with Russia. He is unpredictable, antagonistic to the West and at the same time seemingly both in total control and beyond any control or accountability—but also seemingly hugely popular. I wonder if things could have been different. If the West had shown a bit more vision and less triumphalism—which now looks horribly like pure hubris—and thought a bit more about working jointly on the concerns that the West and Russia share, I believe that we would not now be facing what the report calls “outright confrontation and competition”. For example, I remember, in 1991, one man in Russian intelligence telling me that the West and the USSR had actually shared a great deal of intelligence on matters such as Northern Ireland during the Cold War, but this co-operation seems to have been discarded almost overnight. He was baffled that the West did not seem to see the common problem that we were going to have with Islamic fundamentalism to the south of Russia. Subsequent events have, of course, proved how tragically prescient those remarks were.
Secondly, I would like to ask one or two potentially uncomfortable questions about sanctions. I support sanctions; they have been necessary, and they have quite understandably been used to punish Russia for the invasion of Crimea. The people and the economy of Russia and other countries have indeed suffered. From a strategic point of view, however, surely we must recognise that Mr Putin is not going to be in some way “brought to heel”. His whole credo and platform are based on the very opposite of this. The situation in Crimea has not been reversed—indeed, as other noble Lords have said, there seems to be a creeping acceptance of it. Can the Minister tell us what evidence there is that sanctions have had any effect in causing Mr Putin to change his mind or his ways? More strategically, what are the likely outcomes if the Russian economy really does crumple under the sanctions, low oil prices and other economic headwinds that have been referred to? Surely the European Union and the Foreign Office must have thought this through to some sort of end game. Finally, how effective will sanctions be if the oil price should recover?
On Ukraine, the report refers to the West as “sleep-walking” into a crisis. I agree with an earlier speaker who felt that that was perhaps unfair, but there is a hideous civil war in Ukraine that is going to take a very long time to resolve. It has already cost thousands of lives. Mr Putin has a collection of frozen conflicts and it is hard to see how he could now return Crimea to Ukraine without humiliation.
We are where we are, and both the West and Mr Putin have made blunders along the way. The only way forward, as I see it, is for the West to make unoccupied Ukraine work economically. That would be hugely expensive—Natalie Jaresko, the Finance Minister from Ukraine, referred to the $40 billion IMF stabilisation bailout as just a first step—and extremely difficult to achieve. But surely it is something that, sooner or later, is going to have to be done. If we fail, Ukraine will remain corrupt and war-torn, a failed state and a basket case on Europe and Russia’s borders. Some would say that that is exactly what Mr Putin wants, but maybe it also holds the germ of an idea for how we could eventually re-engage with Russia on this very difficult issue.
Finally, on Russia itself, we have a good many reasons to criticise Mr Putin and his regime in the strongest terms. However, our difficulty with Russia started much earlier in the missed opportunities of the 1990s. We are now stuck in a cul-de-sac characterised by what this report calls an “adversarial mindset” on both sides. We may never—certainly not while Mr Putin is in charge—see Russia wish to subsume its interests in a wider European community. We cannot ignore Mr Putin’s actions, but we simply cannot allow Russia to become another pariah state and a destabilised and destabilising force. As other speakers have said, we need to base our strategy much more overtly and obviously on three things: a better understanding of how the Russians see themselves; a focus on common areas of interest; and a long-term view that includes the next generation in Russia—it is with them that we are going to find the solution to these problems and not in our own. That approach at least offers some kind of starting point for what I have called before in this House rebooting the relationship with Russia for the long term, whether or not Mr Putin himself remains in the Kremlin in the years ahead.
Lord Risby (Con)
My Lords, I warmly congratulate my noble friend Lord Tugendhat on so effectively presenting this brilliant report—and it is a brilliant report. So many people outside your Lordships’ House have read it and complimented all the work of the committee in producing it. It certainly has been a fantastic read for us all.
For some years, I have been chairman of the British Ukrainian Society, which I now declare. Indeed, one of its directors is my noble friend Lord Oxford, who now brings all his experience and understanding to our deliberations. I warmly congratulate him on such a superb maiden speech.
When the Soviet empire collapsed, the departure and independence of Ukraine were very keenly felt by many Russians. But Ukraine has always aspired to be independent, and that spirit provoked savage reprisals by Stalin. Before the Second World War, Stalin effectively starved to death millions of Ukrainians—the Holodomor. In this Palace of Westminster, we have sought to commemorate this tragedy with artistic and photographic exhibitions. It is certainly an event that has scarred the memories of the people of Ukraine.
Regrettably, since independence, Ukraine has been both ill governed and highly dependent on Russian energy supplies. Russia, in turn, has used energy as a weapon of foreign policy, using differential pricing to influence those whom it favours or dislikes. Therefore, Ukraine has been dependent on Russia not only for energy supplies and transmission but as its major export market. Regrettably, a number of those who have led Ukraine politically since independence acquired massive wealth. Former President Yanukovych, now in exile in Russia, apparently built up a fortune of some $70 billion. His effective removal by outraged Ukrainian citizens following the Maidan demonstrations led to the subsequent invasion by Russia, furious at his departure, of Crimea and the Donbass. Ukraine has perennially been in debt to Russia. Indeed, the failure of President Yanukovych to sign the EU Association Agreement was linked to Ukraine’s debt to Russia, which the agreement did not cover. That is because the EU essentially believed, with some degree of understanding, that any money provided would simply be stolen. And so this president turned to Russia.
It was a key policy of the new Ukrainian Government under President Poroshenko to decentralise authority to the regions of this vast country. But this was not spelled out and acted upon sufficiently when they came into office, which might have pre-empted the rise of separatist sentiment. This still needs to happen, but in a way that does not dismember the country, which appears in some respects to be Russia’s objective. Does the Minister agree that the EU must encourage Ukraine to move forward on this decentralisation process as the opportunity presents itself?
The question we all ask ourselves is this: what is Russia’s objective? It seems quite clear to me, somebody who knows Ukraine very well, that it is to make Ukraine ungovernable and drive away any foreign investment to ensure Russia’s continuing dominance and influence.
The British Ukrainian Society is fully part of a process that is now under way in Vienna. The French philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy, a hero of the Maidan demonstrations, called for a Marshall plan. In an echo of this, a small group of us, including him and my noble friend Lord Oxford, is helping in this process. It has a degree of support from President Hollande. In a remarkable demonstration of unity, but also of clear necessity, Ukrainian federations of employers and employees have come together to underpin this initiative. Work streams are being set up in such diverse areas as trade, health, EU association, anti-corruption and judicial reform, headed by distinguished Europeans, including from this country and including members of your Lordships’ House, who will analyse rigorously what is necessary to provide a wholly different constitutional and economic climate. We hope that in September we will be able to report on this. Depending on the level of stability in Ukraine, our clear intention is to launch a major reconstruction fund embracing private sector investors. Of course, the role of the IMF and others is crucial, but we are hopeful that the huge opportunities in Ukraine, not least in agriculture and in IT, will be attractive. We have been pleasantly surprised in discussions in Washington at the level of interest not least from those in the United States. Such a fund would help disconnect Ukraine from the massive current economic shadow of Russia which impacts it so directly.
One of the more troubling interplays has been the extent of involvement of politicians there with different business groups which so dominate the economy. I mention this because, in the fullness of time, more competition is crucially needed. However, confiscation, nationalisation or punitive tax rates, advocated by some, are not seen as a wise priority in Kiev in key government circles, although one oligarch in the last day or two, who appears to have had a private army, has challenged the state’s authority in a completely unacceptable way.
As we have heard, the aggressive behaviour of Russia has been well documented. Nevertheless, it is certainly unwise for some to call for NATO membership of Ukraine, which before the current tragedy was never a live issue. That simply gives Russia a self-justifying excuse to continue its aggression.
Ukraine is a European country that deserves much better than it has suffered. As the excellent report of the European Union Committee makes clear, there are potentially practical ways of trying to engage with Russia at a national and EU level while making it absolutely plain that there will be a heavy price if this offer is spurned. Yet for all the huge energy and commitment of the current Ukrainian Government to initiate much needed reforms, ultimately they will have to recognise that, however unpalatable, no country can escape the reality of its geography.
Lord Davies of Stamford
My Lords, Russia is a country that I know reasonably well. My first job was in the Diplomatic Service. In my 20s, I spent a year learning Russian, and three years as second secretary in Moscow in the 1970s at the height of the Cold War. I have been back more than 20 times since then, including in recent years. I also know reasonably well Ukraine, which I first visited in the days of the Soviet Union and, most recently, about a month ago. I shall be there again from tomorrow morning, visiting, I hope, the front line in Luhansk and Donetsk provinces.
Like, I imagine, most people who have some sense of affinity and affection for Russia, I was particularly disappointed that the end of communism did not mean, as it did in the rest of eastern Europe, the emergence of a successful democracy and of a successful, sustainable and diversified economy, and still less that Russia re-entered, as I had hoped it would, the European family of nations which it had been definitely a part of before 1914—diplomatically, economically, culturally and intellectually. Those were the years of Blok and Yesenin, of Rachmaninoff, the Ballets Russes and Stravinsky; and the years in art of Malevich, Tatlin and the young Kandinsky—an enormous flowering of talent and striking originality.
It is very sad that Russia has gone the way that it has. Some people say that it is the fault of the West. It is arguable that we might have done more to support or be sympathetic to the requirements and difficulties of Yeltsin, but in the Putin era it would have been very difficult to blame the West for that. The shadow of the Soviet Union, which had shortened, has fallen and ever lengthened over Russia during the past few years. The state, the regime, controls now all the broadcasting media and has an effective veto over all the printed media. There is an increasing sense of fear in terms of people’s willingness to express themselves freely. There is a labyrinthine kleptocracy—not a word that is mentioned in the report, unfortunately. The best account of that—I do not need to go into it—is in a remarkable book of which noble Lords may have seen very good reviews in the Times Literary Supplement and The New York Review of Books: Karen Dawisha’s Putin’s Kleptocracy. Unfortunately, because of legal blackmail or fear that some oligarch, perhaps put up to it by Putin, might spend millions of pounds suing it for some form of libel, the projected British publisher, Cambridge University Press—I am sorry to have to say this about an institution related to one of my own universities—has cravenly decided not to publish here, so anybody who wants that book has to look to the United States, as I did, to get it.
The worst aspect of all, however, has been the regular murder of critics or supposed enemies of the regime. Some names, such as Politkovskaya, Litvinenko, Magnitsky and, most recently, Nemtsov, are now world renowned—these were deeply brave people who will go down in history—but there are many others whose names are much less well known. It is deeply worrying, and it has objectively not been possible for us to have, even had we wished it, the kind of relationship of confidence, the ability to discuss in a friendly and mutually supportive way the future of the world, which we would like to have had with the Russian leadership. It is not possible to deal with people on that basis who behave in that fashion.
However, deal with them we must. They are there and, as has rightly been said, Putin is now enormously popular and is likely to remain in power for a long time. That is a reality that we have to cope with, so how do we deal with him? The first thing to remember is that we must deal with him in the only currency which he understands, which is that of power realities. There, I slightly disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. Economics is part of power realities; sanctions are important. I described in the House at the time the reaction of the West to the invasion of Crimea as derisory and said that it would almost certainly encourage Putin to come back for a bigger bite elsewhere. The sanctions that we came up with when he invaded, or took part in the subversion and take-over of, parts of eastern Ukraine have been slightly more robust. That has induced slightly greater hesitation in Putin which is much to be welcomed. But we need to go a great deal further. We need certainly to consider much fiercer sanctions if there are any further breaches. I think that I was the first person to suggest in this House, in November, that we should look at the possibility of denying Russian banks, or certainly those associated with the regime, access to the interbank market—the SWIFT system. I see that that idea has been taken up recently in the United States Congress by John McCain and others and it would be an extremely effective weapon. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that we need to do other things as well. We need certainly to make sure that the Ukrainian army is supplied with reasonable, including lethal, defensive weapons. I have raised that point in many different contexts in this House during the past few weeks. I certainly agree with him that we need to make much greater progress in ensuring that the European Union gradually weans itself from excessive dependence on Russian natural gas. I support the initiatives in building up a European common energy policy designed, among other things, to achieve that objective. It is enormously important to reinforce our commitment to Article 5. We want to put right out of court, out of anybody’s imagination, in Moscow the idea that they might have a go at a NATO or EU member. For that purpose, the high-readiness reaction force which NATO is now considering is very useful, but the best way of reinforcing the Article 5 commitment would be to put our troops, or NATO/EU troops from elsewhere in the Union and the alliance, in the front line, within 100 kilometres of the frontier, so that if there was trouble, they would be likely to be killed in the first hours of any conflict. There is no greater commitment that you can make than that to support your allies.
If we do those things, we have a reasonable chance of reaching a reasonable accord. I would regard a reasonable accord as one in which there is a genuine election—not at the point of a gun but with proper campaigning, international observers and so forth—in Crimea and in the areas of Donetsk province and Luhansk province that have been occupied to see what the local population really wants. If they want to join the Russian Federation, that is fine—they have a right to do that and it can go ahead—but equally, as a quid pro quo, the rest of the Ukrainian population would also have a right to determine their future, and if they wished to do so, their right to join the EU and to join NATO would be respected by Russia. That is essential. Some people say that that is unrealistic or, as the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, said in a lucid speech with which I mostly disagreed, that we should ourselves exclude that idea. That would be quite wrong. To try to create a separate status for Ukraine that did not allow it to join NATO or the EU would be wrong for two reasons. First, it would be wrong morally. It would be a terrible betrayal. It would amount to saying that the people of Crimea can have a free choice, because they want to join Russia; the people in the rest of Ukraine cannot have a free choice, they are not sovereign. That would be a disgraceful retreat, psychologically damaging and very dangerous, because of course it would encourage Putin to go further. Secondly, it would not work. The Ukrainian population would not accept it, and why would Putin respect it? Russia has already signed a piece of paper from which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, quoted extensively, the Budapest agreement, under which Russia guaranteed the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. That agreement has been breached in just about every respect, and I think that Putin regards it as some sort of joke.
We should be quite clear about our determination to preserve the right of sovereignty, to which we are committed, and therefore the right to self-determination of Ukraine in future. It would be a great mistake for us, in my view, to allow a situation to arise in which there is uncertainty and seen to be something to play for. That is to invest in future instability and attempts by Putin to change facts on the ground. It would also be a great mistake to allow Ukraine to join the EU but not NATO, because that would mean that we had a commitment under the Lisbon treaty but the United States did not have a commitment under the Washington treaty to support Ukraine. Again, that would be an area of uncertainty that could be exploited in future, which could be destabilising and which could lead to exactly the sort of nightmares which we all hope to avoid.
Lord Truscott (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, on his excellent maiden speech. According to the Daily Telegraph, he was MI6 station head in Moscow, but I know that he could not possibly comment. I also commend the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, and the committee on the excellent report before your Lordships’ House today. I heartily agree with most of it.
I begin by reflecting on the appalling murder of Boris Nemtsov on 27 February, which has just been mentioned. He was a charming and articulate member of the opposition who I met several times during the 1990s when I was a member of the European Parliament’s delegation for relations with the Russian Federation. Nemtsov’s assassination was one of the worst acts of violence against a leading liberal in Russia since the murder of Duma Deputy Galina Starovoitova outside her St Petersburg apartment in November 1998. Almost 20 years on, history seems to repeat itself in Russia.
The report states:
“The EU’s relationship with Russia has for too long been based on the optimistic premise that Russia has been on a trajectory towards becoming a democratic ‘European’ country”.
It also states that there has been a loss of member states’ analytical capacity on Russia and a loss of specialist Russian expertise in the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Both statements are sadly very true.
When I wrote my book, Russia First: Breaking with the West, in 1997, the clue was in the title: breaking with the West. I argued then that the West effectively lost Russia in the mid-1990s when, humiliated and marginalised by the West, as the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, referred to, Russia decided to pursue its own strategic interests and distinct future Eurasian path. Neither meant that Russia would turn into a western-style democracy with a fully fledged market economy. It was obvious then, and it is even more obvious today.
I think that I have met virtually every British ambassador who has served in Moscow since the late 1980s; standing out head and shoulders above the rest, Sir Rodric Braithwaite and Sir Rod Lyne—real Russian/Soviet experts. I do not believe that the FCO is currently capable of reproducing their expertise, experience or analytical capabilities, which is worrying.
The report is also right to identify two evident policy failures in the run-up to the Ukrainian crisis: first, the failure to be aware of Russian hostility to the association agreement referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Lamont; and, secondly, the crucial importance that Moscow attached to preventing Ukraine from joining NATO. Imagine, if you would, the situation back in 1962, to which the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, referred, if Cuba had said that not only was it going to install Soviet ballistic missiles 90 miles from the USA but it would also join the Warsaw Pact. War would have been inevitable. In 1983, the US invaded Grenada, a Commonwealth country, after a coup by a revolutionary group. Incidentally, the UNGA condemned the invasion as a,
“flagrant violation of international law”,
and the only reason why the resolution did not pass was because the US vetoed it in the UN Security Council.
It is also correct that Moscow misjudged the West over Ukraine. With Transnistria, a European country had already had its territory divided by pro-Russian separatists after a war in the early 1990s with little or no reaction from the West, while Georgia, after the 2008 war, remains divided to this day. Russia was genuinely surprised by the strength of the West’s reaction to its role in the Ukrainian crisis.
That brings us to the question of sanctions. Here I disagree somewhat with the report’s conclusions. It states that sanctions are fine in the short term, although there is no evidence that they have shifted President Putin’s stance on the Crimea or Russia’s perceived vital strategic interests. In the long term, the sanctions are adjudged to be,
“detrimental to the EU’s interests as well as to Russia’s”.
I think that the sanctions, apart from making the West feel virtuous in “punishing” Russia—again, a word used by the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell—will be purely counterproductive, as some witnesses to the committee noted. They play into the hands of the nationalists while achieving virtually nothing politically. Economically, Russia is suffering far more from the fall in the price of a barrel of oil than from sanctions, so in that sense OPEC has far more leverage than the West. The EU has 12 to 14 times more trade with Russia than the US, so if anything, sanctions will damage Europe much more than Washington.
Finally, I agree with the report’s emphasis on a greater EU dialogue and engagement with Russia through, for example, reconvened summits and a focus on issues of shared interest. While I am sure that everyone in your Lordships’ House would welcome a diplomatic solution to the Ukrainian crisis based on Minsk II, I hope we can also agree that, as the report says, it would indeed be,
“a failure of imagination and diplomacy if the crisis in Ukraine were to result in a long-lasting era of colder relations”.
The Earl of Caithness (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Tugendhat and his committee for the excellent work that they have done in producing the report. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Oxford and Asquith on his excellent maiden speech. I say that because the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who is sadly not now in his place, welcomed him as a fellow member of the Diplomatic Service. I welcome him as another example of the goodness of the hereditary system and the by-election system in bringing people into this House who can make a contribution who might not otherwise be taking part in national politics.
There are a number of examples of larger countries breaking rules with impunity. We have seen it in the EU itself, with France and Germany making agreements and then breaking them. Some people point the figure at China. Now we have Russia breaking an international agreement. Whatever one thinks of Mr Putin and his actions, I believe that we might have reason to be grateful to him. I say that because he has made us wake up. He has certainly shaken up the former Soviet Union states—some of which are now in the EU, some of which are not—which were perhaps a bit starry eyed about what the West could offer and how much benefit there could be from the West. It has certainly shaken up the West. By the West, I mean the EU and the US. It is one of the sadnesses that this report is inevitably more EU based than internationally based, because the EU policy towards Russia will have to take account of what the US is doing.
I ask my noble friend on the Front Bench what she expects the EU’s reaction to be to the US supplying arms to Kiev. Will there be a united response, or will an American action divide the EU rather than a Russian action?
The report rightly highlights some of the failures of the West and shows as a result what a tricky negotiating partner the EU can be at times. It is striking at paragraph 235 how shocked Mr Putin was that for once the EU was unified and had a strong sense of purpose. The noble Lord, Lord Owen, mentioned the understandings that the US had with Russia, which seem to be broken with fairly good impunity on its side.
My noble friend Lord Jopling said that he hoped that NATO would have full European support, but that is a big if. Can there be full European support? This takes me back to the point that we might be grateful to Mr Putin, because we now have a better chance than there has been to date of having a long-lasting European response to the Russian problem.
When I talked to people in the Czech Republic, particularly the older generation, I was struck by what a generation gap there seems to be. These people were born under the Soviet regime—the noble Lord, Lord Soley, mentioned what a transformation they have had—and they are finding it extremely difficult to adjust to western European standards, which the young seem to pick up fairly quickly. There was certainly a hankering to go back to a more structured, family-orientated way of life that existed in the Soviet Union, much though they disliked the oppression at the time. Mr Putin’s actions have made that older generation think that they were perhaps being slightly misty-eyed about what had happened in the past and that the reality, whatever difficulties that generation gap produces, is a better alternative.
I was also struck by the fact that the Lithuanians who gave evidence to us in Sub-Committee A did not want to talk about the single currency but about defence, because they saw the euro as part of defence. The remark that particularly struck me was that the Russians could attack them much more easily if they had their own currency, but now that they were part of Europe they saw its currency as part of their defence policy and were much more resilient to any difficulties that Russia might cause.
I want to ask my noble friend about what I read at the end of last week that really thrilled me: that we were going back to one of Mrs Thatcher’s old policies—giving help to the former Soviet states for good governance. This was a hugely important part of the Foreign Office brief then. If we are to give £20 million a year to the former Soviet countries for good governance and improving their way of life, I hope that my noble friend will be able to tell us more about it.
We must be under no illusion as to what the Government in Russia are up to. I stress again, as some noble Lords have done, that we need to separate out this Government from Russia itself. We are not criticising Russia, because there have been different Governments. We heard before this debate started that Russia is now exploring selling ships to the Argentinians, who are going to call those ships the Malvinas-class destroyers. That is another way of getting at the unity of the EU and separating parts of the West from itself. I hope that as a result of all the damage, horrors and evils that have happened over the last couple of years, we will emerge with a stronger, more united EU and a more sensible regard for some of the sensitivities of Russia and treat it as a more equal partner than in previous years.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)
My Lords, we owe a considerable debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, for having introduced such a perceptive and timely report on a topic of major significance for our foreign policy and that of the rest of Europe, and for ensuring that it is debated without the sort of delays to which we are all too accustomed.
I would suggest that there are few more futile efforts than that of a number of commentators who pose—and try to answer—the question of whether Ukraine or the Islamic State should have a higher priority in our foreign and security policy formulation. We do not have the luxury of that choice: both pose a fundamental challenge to the rules-based international order, which it is in our interests to sustain. Both pose threats to democracy, human rights, our security and that of our allies, with the risks of mass migration and the destabilisation of whole regions on Europe’s doorstep. I suggest that both need to be countered effectively if we do not wish to find ourselves having to take more costly decisions further down the track.
I doubt whether anyone would contest one of the report’s main findings: that we and the European Union were ill prepared for, and rather misjudged, President Putin’s reaction to the events in the Maidan and the fall of Yanukovych. I would add only that President Putin seems to have been equally ill informed and ill prepared, and equally to have misjudged the European reaction and the effects of the economic sanctions imposed in response to his illegal actions. I enter a modest plea of not guilty, as I recall a conversation in Vilnius in October 2013 with a Lithuanian parliamentarian who was exuding optimism about the future course of events, to which I replied, “Provided that there is not a Putin surprise”. Well, there was a Putin surprise. Europe’s misjudgment has given rise, as is often the case in democracies, to a rather excessive tendency to blame ourselves. Putin’s reaction, as is often the case in authoritarian regimes, consists of blaming absolutely everyone else. Neither of those reactions seen a very useful guide for future policy, so what should our future policy be?
I would certainly argue that any viable European policy needs a clear element of deterrence and containment as part of it. We should be prepared, and make sure we show others that we are prepared, to impose new economic sanctions if Russia does not stick to the letter and spirit of the Minsk agreement. There should be no question of easing sanctions unless every part of Minsk is implemented, in particular the provision for Ukrainian control and international monitoring of the whole Russia-Ukraine border. I would argue that we should also fulfil our 2% of gross national income commitment for defence spending to NATO and press others to do so, too. We should be more active in supporting NATO members closest to Russia and refuse to legitimise Russia’s seizure of the Crimea, from which President Putin has now stripped away the veil of deceit. I feel that it was a pity that Ukraine and Russia never gave any thought to the creation of a sovereign base area for Russia’s Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol. That thought may come forward in some years’ time.
I suggest that we should give no ground to Russia’s demands for a sphere of influence, any more than we ourselves should make any such demands. That includes that we should not be championing the extension of NATO’s membership. However, we also need a positive element to our policy towards Russia to match the deterrence. The report was wise to suggest that the EU should be ready in due course to explore the scope for co-operation with the Eurasian Economic Union. We should take every opportunity to make it clear that the free trade agreements with Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia were not intended to constrain—and will not constrain—or damage those countries’ trade relations with Russia. We need a massive and substantial effort to reform Ukraine’s economy and free it of the cronyism and corruption that has hitherto been its bane. Here I pay tribute to the maiden speech of the noble Earl, who knows so much more about these matters than I do and spoke very interestingly on that aspect.
With regard to Russia itself, we obviously persisted too long in nurturing the illusion that we could somehow or other bring about its transformation into a normal European state and economy just like the others. Still, were we wrong to offer help after the collapse of the Soviet Union? I myself do not think so. Clearly we must now deal with Russia as it is, but surely we do not need to leave our values outside the door when we do so.
Then there are the lessons to be learnt for our own diplomacy, on which the report has some justifiably critical things to say. If we go on squeezing the FCO and the Diplomatic Service resources, there will be more unfortunate consequences down the track. I thought that the report was a little less revealing on how on earth we came to be absent from such a key area of policy. I do not understand how we came not to be represented in the key moments in the Ukraine crisis or how we came to subcontract the main decisions to Germany and France. Where was the Foreign Secretary when his colleagues were heading off to Kiev in the crucial period of this crisis? We did not absent ourselves from the Balkans in the 1990s nor from the nuclear negotiations with Iran. As a signatory of the Budapest memorandum, should we not have been playing a more active role?
I am sure that this will not be the last occasion when we debate this range of issues, nor should it be. It is fashionable just now to lament the demise of the post-Cold War settlement in Europe and, more widely, of the overall rules-based structure of our world. However, surely we should not accept that as a given; we should be pushing back against it. To do so, we need to strengthen and increase the credibility of our main international structures of which we are members: the EU, NATO and the UN. I hope very much that the Government who are formed after the election will put that strengthening of those institutions and structures at the heart of their foreign and security policies.
Lord Selsdon (Con)
My Lords, my interest in Ukraine first began when I became secretary to the Parliamentary Space Committee, when I had no real idea of the strength of Ukraine in the space sector. Before that, I had been brought up with a Russian governess and knew that there was food all over the Soviet Union. I remind your Lordships that 25% of the total agricultural output of the former Soviet Union came from Ukraine, and 70% of the sugar from sugar beet. It was the fifth largest exporter of wheat and the third largest exporter of cotton, and had 25% of the workers in the agricultural sector. This information is historical but has become quite important to modern-day Russia.
Ukraine had a state company called Yuzhmash, which used to produce 6,700 tractors a year. It then went into the space business, first by employing German prisoners of war to construct a large military equipment factory at Dnipropetrovsk, which was Ukraine’s fourth largest city, and then developing into a major centre for nuclear arms production and space and ballistic missile design that employed 50,000 people. This interested me as secretary to the Parliamentary Space Committee, and I wanted to look at the missiles. They kindly arranged for me to go down there. I arrived at Kiev and was told that I would have to wait until the next day for a plane. I said, “Can’t I go down now?”. A chap came up—a pilot—and said, “Well, I’m on the way back with my plane. Would you like to come with me? You won’t mind the dog and the puppies”. So that is how I first got to Ukraine.
As I say, Yuzhmash was employing 70,000 people, but the main Soviet missile activity was in Hrunecheva in Russia, where they are now launching or preparing six new rockets, including one proton rocket. As well as that, Ukraine was a great shipbuilder. Being secretary of the House of Lords Yacht Club, that interested me as well, so I asked if I could have a look at the ships. My bank then set up a team to buy ships from Ukraine. The thought was that we would buy product tankers, general purpose vessels and reefers, which could be chartered out into the market and fully financed. I had not realised that before its independence Ukraine had supplied 60% to 70% of the Soviet Union’s ships, most of them for Russia. At the end of 1995 some 126 vessels, mainly product tankers, had been built at the Kherson shipyard alone. So Ukraine became a much broader country for me to look at. We asked whether they could build some ships for us. Then I heard about the Know-How Fund, so I wrote to it— I did a packet about how you build a ship and so on. The fund gave me £100,000 so we set out to see what we could do to develop demand for ships that the British marine sector could use. It seemed quite simple to build a ship. They built many ships extraordinarily quickly and very easily. We set up a shipbuilding company with them. We took a team of all our experts from the United Kingdom—we did not build ships anymore, which, as my family comes from the Clyde area, has always upset me—and placed an order for some ships, which were surprisingly cheap and economic. At the end of the day, the project failed for reasons of bureaucracy, but their shipbuilding knowledge was valuable.
Given its strength in the agricultural sector, with its 9,000 tractors, I thought that Yuzhmash would still be in business, but it has been closed down. That seems rather strange when it was a very good operation, but it seems effectively to have been alienated by the Soviet Union. My concern, therefore, is: what is going on? Surely Ukraine’s remarkable agricultural capability and ability to increase production has a cash flow value that could help the world and ourselves. If they can build ships—they still have the facilities there—and we could find orders for those ships, which are needed in the international market, there must be some opportunity.
When I have been to Kiev I have usually got into trouble because I ask too many questions. I wanted to know about religion, for example, and before I knew it I was locked up in some archives or some underground thing with a chap with an enormous long beard with weights on the end. I did not know that this was a very senior man of the church, that it is important that you should have a long beard to be respected and that in order to do that you put weights on the end of your beard to make it grow longer. This was some of the technology. I learnt from them all about how they had hibernated in these caverns during the war. Then, when they had nothing else to do with me, although I am completely tone deaf and have no idea about music—I could not even sing middle C at school—they sent me off to the opera for three or four days running, all as part of some propaganda exercise. Finally, they said, “Look, what can we do together?”. I checked with my colleagues from the bank and found that we could willingly finance things in Ukraine, but the politics were beyond my pay grade.
Ukraine is a country that I love. It was intriguing to be able to ask them questions such as, “Did you really send those rockets to Cuba?”—although maybe I should not be saying these sorts of things. I had been to Cuba quite often as well, and I asked the Cubans if Ukraine had sent the missiles. I never really knew the true story. It was said that the missiles had indeed been sent, but they had not necessarily arrived. So the Ukrainians had to send some more but, as there had been no reaction from the Cubans, the Ukrainians sent some photographs of the missiles on the cargo boat. When I went to Cuba, the Cubans said, “Yes of course, we know all about that”.
This lovely world of Ukraine has intrigued me for a long time. To some extent they are European. With those assets and that agriculture production, when we are short of food in the EU, maybe we could invite them to come along. The question is: who do you talk to there now? It seems to me that Putin is gradually concentrating control as much as he can within a small area around Moscow, and countries like Ukraine may be left out in the cold.
Ukraine is a country that I love and respect. If any of your Lordships would like a bit of fun, I would willingly take you down to look at the old missile factory, although it is not producing missiles anymore. The people there are still nice.
Lord Thomas of Swynnerton (CB)
My Lords, I feel very much in the minority since those who have spoken, often very eloquently, know so much about Ukraine, particularly the last speaker. It is a pleasure to take part in a debate to which the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, has made such an admirable contribution. We look forward to hearing from him often in future.
At first sight, Russia’s behaviour towards Ukraine is not very different from the sort of conduct that great powers have always offered to smaller powers who are their neighbours, but first sight is practically always a mistaken concept. The present Ukraine crisis is quite different from other crises. First, all intelligent Russians know something of what the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, drew our attention to; namely, that before the First World War, the export of wheat from Ukraine made a substantial contribution to Russian wealth. The black soil of Ukraine was well known throughout the international agrarian world.
Secondly—this is perhaps more important—all historically minded Russians know very well that Kiev, the capital of Ukraine, was the first centre of Russia at the end of the 10th century. It was the motor of Russian Christianity, as many of us who have the privilege of living in West Kensington recognise every day as we pass the statue of St Volodymyr at the entrance of Holland Park. In those days of the remote past, there was a definite Russian concept in Ukraine. It took a very long time to be superseded by the Grand Duchy of Moscow, which was the centre of Romanov, communist and Putinesque Russia. I think Moscow was first mentioned in the chronicles in 1147.
Ukraine is now formally independent and is recognised as such by the signatories to the Budapest agreement, which include this country and Russia. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, was quite right to say that we should not forget that; nor should we allow Russia to forget it. A scrap of paper it may be, but it is scraps of paper that make civilisation. In this House, there seems to be a certain reluctance to be proud of the fact that we won the Cold War and to feel that we imposed a humiliating sanction on the new Russia. However, many of us must respect the victory. The average eastern European would be astounded to hear some of the speeches made in this House. Ours was a modest, quiet celebration; there was no ceremony in St Paul’s at the end of the Cold War. Can we honestly believe that that was a damaging thing which humiliated Russia? I feel that perhaps we did not do enough. To blame some of our actions for the later evils of Russia seems a false piece of historical writing.
If one is going to be serious, the entry of the Baltic states into NATO must be represented as a triumph. I remember a great friend of mine, Lord St Oswald—other noble Lords may also remember him—who every year used to insist on trying to put the capture of the Baltic states by the Russians on the agenda of the United Nations. He was always very politely told to delay his humanitarian gesture, which he did. He would have been delighted that Riga, Vilnius and Tallinn are now NATO capitals.
All the same, we all hope—this was a point made eloquently by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling—that in the long run we shall be able to recover the possibility of friendship and collaboration with a civilised Russia. The long chain of great Russian novels and plays reminds us that Russia may in time be able to contribute to world civilisation as much as any other western country—indeed, many of us would say more.
There is a certain similarity between the present and the situation in Finland in 1940. We loved the Finns and admired their bravery, but we needed to be the allies of the Soviet Union—of Russia and Uncle Joe—and we made such an alliance, which was such a triumphant part of the last part of the Second World War. For details of the Winter War, as it was called, in 1940 between Russia and Finland, I recommend very strongly, as if I were your Lordships’ history tutor at university, the second volume of Harold Macmillan’s memoirs, The Blast of War, chapter 3 particularly.
There is one more point that we should address. It is frequently said that we do not want to see a repeat of the Cold War. Of course we do not, but that is not very likely because the Cold War was a war of ideologies, not a war of states. The great American ambassador Chip Bohlen said that we would not be able to deal with Russia sensibly until she had ceased to be a cause and had become a state. She has at least become a state and ceased to be a cause, and perhaps in that respect there is reason for optimism in the long run.
Lord Elton (Con)
My Lords, I must begin by congratulating the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, on what I can only describe as an impeccable maiden speech. I hope to hear him very often in future. I also thank my noble friend Lord Tugendhat and his team for an outstanding report from which I have learnt a very great deal—and I have learnt a great deal more from the debate that has followed.
I have one regret about it, and it comes pretty early. In paragraph 5 we read:
“The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), the cornerstone of defence for its EU Members, is outside the scope of this report”.
I understand the reasons for that, and it would have been an unmanageable task to have written that into this report, particularly in the time available, and I dare say that it would have been pretty difficult to assimilate, but it has to be said that in Putin’s mind NATO stands as a very important shadow behind everything that is going on in Europe.
This brings me on to sadly familiar ground. I speak really out of a sense of duty because I realise that although here they are more numerous, in the country as a whole the proportion of people who have lived through history since before the Second World War is small. I was fortunate enough to have a highly intelligent historian as my father and guide who had fought through the First World War, and I have read a bit of history myself, and I find what I am hearing and seeing now extraordinarily, sickeningly similar to what happened when I was a child under tuition.
I was born in 1930, and at that time, a nation that felt itself to have been humiliated by recent history threw up a dictator who achieved astronomic popularity by playing on that card and annexing neighbouring territory on the grounds of ethnic appropriateness. He did so with the freedom afforded by neighbouring states being ridiculously underequipped to resist him. The fate of the gallant, brave but tiny British Expeditionary Force underlines what I am saying. What have we now? We have a great European country that considers itself to have been recently humiliated by history, led and dominated by a tyrant who has no respect whatever for human rights—which is another echo—and who is annexing neighbouring countries on the grounds of ethnic similarity. We also have a British Government, as we had in 1937 to 1939, who seek to restrain the policies of that dictator, backed by wholly insufficient military force to give credibility to any threat that might be made.
Clausewitz said, if I remember correctly, that war was diplomacy carried on by other means. If I say that, I suppose people will begin to dismiss what I have to say, thinking that old men who recount the past are trapped in the definitions of the past. However, the Putin era has redefined not diplomacy but war, as we have heard from my noble friend Lord Howell. The equivalent English word is “masquerade”. The word I want is “maskirovka”—my noble friend nods—which is very different until it shades into warfare. The definition is important because NATO, in Article 5—hence my regret that it could not be in this report—has a very clear definition of the infringement of the rights of a country, which is based entirely on the old-fashioned concept of tanks rumbling across the frontier. However, in Ukraine we have what has been—and, I do not doubt, will continue to be—the infiltration of personnel and light equipment across the border. Therefore I see a repetition and I just pray that it does not go the full course, as it did in 1939.
How long does it take to prepare and to be sufficiently credible in one’s armaments? Noble Lords will recall that the turning point in the downward spiral of our fortunes in the 1939 to 1945 conflict was the building of the Supermarine Spitfire. The Air Ministry gave the contract to develop the prototype on 3 January 1935, and 14 months later, on 5 March, the first flight of the prototype took place. The Air Ministry ordered the first 310 Mk1 aeroplanes on 3 June 1936, and 23 months later the first production Spitfire flew for the first time. It was not until August 1939 that No. 19 Squadron became the first to receive the Spitfire in bulk. Much less glamorous, in the background, and differently constructed, the Hurricane was statistically far more important in the Battle of Britain. The Spitfire was built of stressed skin, which was the up-to-date method; the Hurricane was built of steel tubing with fabric over it, with a Merlin engine inside, and had four machine-guns.
Despite that time lag, of 1935 to 1939, we are still wondering whether we should stick to 2%. We have to, and there may be costs to that which are not very acceptable. But I, for one, do not want my children to have their children in the middle of another world war. It has to be fought if we are to protect all the values of our society, and world health.
If the right reverend Prelate, who has gone back to his flock, were here, he would perhaps be muttering, “Blessed are the peacemakers”, and saying that we should be beating our swords into ploughshares. But it is beating your swords into ploughshares that precipitates war if the other chap has not done it as well. When the Americans say, “You are not strong enough—you can only be a small unit within our army”, that says to the Russians, “Come on, have a try”. We have to be strong and make the sacrifices necessary to do that now. They will be hugely greater if we do not.
Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the committee, and the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, in particular, for the excellent analysis in this report. I know it has been widely read and appreciated, not just in this House but across the whole continent, and I thank them for their work.
There have been some excellent contributions this afternoon; it has been great to listen to so many people who understand this part of the world. In particular I express my appreciation for the maiden speech of the noble Earl, Lord Oxford and Asquith, which gave a particularly insightful view of the situation in the area, and which was a very good analysis of what is going on today. The most shocking fact I heard this afternoon was that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, served in the FCO in Russia 50 years ago—so he must have been about 15 years old at the time.
At the outset I underline that the Labour Party stands as one with the Government as regards their response to events in Ukraine, although it should be underlined that we were disappointed that the UK was not more involved and engaged in drawing up the Minsk agreements. The report looks at how the situation was arrived at and at where we go from here. Whether the situation in the Crimea could have been averted is a moot point. It seems that very few analysts saw the annexation coming and that, to a large extent, events on the ground ran ahead of diplomatic and political control.
One issue highlighted in the report is the decline in Russian expertise in the FCO. It seems as if certain elements within the coalition Government seemed to have taken Fukuyama’s “end of history” to heart, believing in the triumph of western liberal democracy—a point that the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, emphasised. Perhaps they were lulled into a false sense of security by the release of Mikhail Khodorkovsky and Pussy Riot just before the Sochi Olympic Games began. How wrong could they have been? Politics and international political tension is on the increase rather than decreasing, as was predicted, and we need to ensure that we have an adequate diplomatic and political response to the changing situation, as regards not just Russia but further afield in the world.
The lack of Russian speakers in the FCO is underlined in the report, as the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, emphasised. The report also suggests that there might have been some misreading of Russia which could have been avoided if more experts had been in place in the EU, who would have been able to flag up the fact that, among other things, Russia was becoming increasingly upset—and felt “humiliated” and “encircled” —by the rapprochement of Ukraine to the EU.
We have learnt that it was a grave mistake to take our eyes off Russia, and that we misunderstood the character of Putin. When it comes to Russia, we do not need generalists but experts who are there consistently and who have built up a rapport with Russian diplomats. It is worth noting that China has been far more successful in its relationship with Russia through careful handling of where Chinese and Russian interests overlap. Can the Minister inform the House whether there has been a beefing up of the Russian department at the FCO and if there are any Ukrainian speakers on the staff? I wondered also whether the Minister would be open to using and engaging with think tanks that have a degree of expertise on Russia to help with advising on Russian affairs.
Russia’s foreign policy must be interpreted frequently as a tool of domestic policy in a country which prides the “strong man” standing up for his country. Russia still contests that many of the states which surround it geographically are its own sphere of influence. The speed of the Ukraine-European Union Association Agreement, according to the report, took the Russians by surprise, and it is clear that Russia often conflated the EU with NATO. It saw the association agreement as a direct threat to its own ambitions to develop further its own trade partnership, the Eurasian Economic Union. It seems that, at EU level, there was very little or no effort to reassure Russia that the association agreement was not a zero-sum game whereby Ukraine would have to curtail trade with Russia. But none of this excuses the fact that, for the first time since 1945, an invading army has redrawn the borders of a country in Europe through force and, in the process, has broken a whole raft of international agreements to which we and the Russians have signed up. The united condemnation of Russia and the imposition of sanctions was absolutely the correct response, and it is essential that the EU remains united in its dealings with Russia. As the report suggests, we need to be willing if necessary to step up sanctions.
It is vital that the Minsk agreement is implemented in full. We were pleased to note that in the European Council last week a commitment was made to the effect that EU sanctions on Russia should be eased only in the event of the full implementation of that agreement, despite misgivings in some quarters, as alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. It is clear that the security dimension of the EU is becoming more and more important. This demands common action, resolve, and a clear commitment to our continuing place in the European Union, on which, of course, it is very difficult for this Government to deliver.
There is without question a vast array of corruption in Ukraine, which must be halted. Ukrainian Assistant Defence Minister Yury Biryukov estimated that 20% to 25% of the money allocated to the military budget is stolen. But as the report clearly states, Ukraine is in an extremely precarious situation economically and it would be in nobody’s interest to see the country implode. There is a humanitarian crisis, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans said. It would be in nobody’s interest to see the country go backwards, so let us support Ukraine, but let us do it with our eyes wide open—with tough love, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat.
So what will happen next? Russia is undoubtedly feeling the pain of the sanctions, but more prominently perhaps the collapse in the price of oil. That is already having a real impact on the economy of the country, but there is no reason to believe that Putin’s attitude will change. Putin likes to play by Putin’s rules and nobody else’s. He is, as we are aware, enjoying popularity ratings of 80% in the polls, due in no small part to his so-called victory in Crimea. His support on this issue comes even from Russians who might be seen traditionally on the liberal wing.
The trust between Russia and the West has gone. Even Putin himself has admitted since the publication of this report that it was he who initiated the annexation of Crimea for the Russians. Russia seems to be determined to goad the West and the UK in particular—for example, through honouring Lugovoi, the “alleged poisoner” of Litvinenko, during the recent hearing in London. There does not seem to be much point in playing Mr Nice Guy with Putin; he does not respond to that kind of treatment, and we must respond directly to provocative action from Russia. Beyond this, however, we need to understand that we must do everything possible to avoid a direct military confrontation with Russia; we must learn to live with each other, because we live in the same neighbourhood—we have no other option. Therefore, we need to elaborate a better understanding of the concerns of Russia, but, I should underline, without acting as if we are apologists for or appeasers of Russian aggression. We need to simultaneously show strength when necessary—a strength understood by Putin—and stop talking past the Russians in conversation. We need to develop a clear strategy, together with the rest of the EU, towards Russia, as my noble friend Lord Soley said. We need to be clear that we have absolutely no idea of what would replace Putin if he were to go, so let us make sure that we do not jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. The collapse of Russia is in no one’s interests.
Finally, we were slightly disappointed by Britain’s failure to take a leading role in responding to the events unfolding in the Ukraine, despite being a signatory to the 1994 Budapest memorandum on security assurances. Is this a symptom of Britain moving away from its traditional leadership role in EU affairs?
This is certainly the last time that I shall be speaking during this parliamentary Session from the Front Bench, so I thank the committee for its work over the Session and the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for her work on the Foreign Affairs team—and, in particular, for the much appreciated initiative of the regular briefings that she has held with the FCO.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, this has been an important debate, covering one of the most crucial foreign policy issues that we face today. As my noble friend Lord Tugendhat said, it has taken place under slightly unusual circumstances, coming as it does before the Government have had the opportunity to issue their formal response to the committee’s report. That response will be coming within the usual timeframe. But I perfectly well understand why the committee wished to go ahead at this early stage. There has been a clearly expressed view around the House on more than one occasion that we should have a full debate on the situation with regard to Russia and Ukraine. We have debated it in the past but, apart from the debate about the association agreements, not within the past month or so. We are, of course, running out of time to have this kind of debate. As Dissolution faces us next Monday, it was perfectly understandable that noble Lords wished to go ahead now with the debate.
When I attended the Human Rights Council in Geneva earlier this month, I had a bilateral meeting with the Deputy Foreign Minister of Ukraine. I reaffirmed the UK Government’s support for Ukraine and assured him that we would continue to raise awareness of the crisis there. The committee has assisted me in carrying out that commitment by holding this debate today.
I thank the committee for its detailed and far-reaching work on this critical issue and I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Tugendhat for his expert chairmanship. The Government agree with a great deal of the committee’s findings, but there are also a number of conclusions with which we must disagree. Today I will seek to address some of the main themes.
It is important to consider the roots of this crisis, as so many noble Lords have done. They lie in Russia’s rejection of the rights of the people of Ukraine to choose their own future, free from external interference. Since 2007, Ukraine had been working towards an association agreement with the European Union. It was not a secret, it was not rushed, it was not a surprise to Russia—it was an open and transparent process between a sovereign state and the European Union. But when Russia decided that it did not like the path that its sovereign neighbour was following, it responded in the worst of ways. Under pressure from Moscow, Ukrainian President Yanukovych cancelled negotiations with the European Union. When the people of Ukraine took to the Maidan to protest and to express their democratic right to demand a new course for their country’s future, they were met with threats, intimidation and violence. Protesters were shot and killed by security forces acting on behalf of the Yanukovych Government. President Yanukovych then fled to Russia.
The events that then followed are well known. On 18 March 2014, Russia illegally annexed Crimea. I assure the right reverend Prelate and others that we do not forget Crimea. I will return to the matter of sanctions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, in a little while. Within weeks, Russian troops and weapons started crossing the border to support separatist proxies in fighting Ukrainian forces in Donbass. In July, 298 civilians lost their lives in the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, by a missile from an area controlled by Russian-backed separatists.
Moscow’s actions in ignoring sovereign borders, illegally annexing territory and using military force in order to preserve what it sees as Russia’s sphere of influence constitute the biggest threat to European security since the fall of the Iron Curtain. Today we heard important analyses from around the House from noble Lords who lived through the Cold War and practised diplomacy during that era and beyond. It was important to hear their perspective because it is in that way that we learn. Perhaps one of the most moving testimonies was from my noble friend Lord Elton, to whom I am grateful.
I turn to analysis. Russia has proved itself an unpredictable and dangerous actor, willing to risk international security and its own economic stability to satisfy its geopolitical aim of preventing Ukraine leaving its sphere of influence and forming a closer association with the EU. We reject the claim that the UK or EU together “sleepwalked” into the current crisis. The UK and EU were well aware of Russia’s hostility towards the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, particularly in the run-up to the Vilnius Summit in November 2013. Of course, Russian military action was considered as a possible response, but at the extreme end of its available options. However, no one could have predicted the scale of the unjustifiable and illegal Russian intervention in eastern Ukraine. As noble Lords have remarked, the proximate cause of the crisis was the sudden collapse of the Yanukovych regime in Ukraine the following February after weeks of street protests in Kiev. As President Putin has now publicly confirmed, it was this event that triggered the decision by the Russian leadership to annex Crimea—an unprecedented action that tore up all the rules of security in Europe. The associated decision-making process was therefore days, not weeks. The blame for what has followed in the Donbass lies squarely with the pro-Russian separatists, backed by the Russian authorities, not with a benign association agreement between the EU and Ukraine which had been under negotiation for more than seven years. I should say at this point that I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for his support when we discussed the association agreements for Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia and I am grateful today for the support for the wider policy on Ukraine expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely.
A criticism throughout the committee’s report is that the Foreign Office and the EU lacked sufficient analytical capacity on Russia and an understanding of Russian goals. The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, has a lot of experience of the teaching of languages and their use and she argued that we lacked capacity with regard to language skills in this area. This House is an example of the importance of expert knowledge and the value of long-standing experience. We recognise that there is always more that we can do to build knowledge and insight. It is certainly true, simply due to the passage of time, that there are very few officials in any government department or agency with direct professional experience of working with the old Soviet Union before it collapsed. My noble friend Lord Tugendhat and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, referred to the high turnover of staff in our Russian department and the nature of our capability. It is true that as a response to the Ukraine crisis we upgraded the position of Director Eastern Europe and Central Asia, as well as adding a new additional director and new deputy directors, which meant that the staff necessarily changed. However, that occurred because we were trying to improve our response and our staffing ratio. It is, of course, not true that none of those incumbents spoke Russian; some did. However, we do not employ our directors primarily for their language skills; rather, it is their leadership and policy skills that come to the fore in London, where they work. However, when we speak to the Russian embassy in London, we expect to speak in English. That is because when they speak to us in Moscow, they expect to speak to us in Russian, and that is where the language expertise should lie.
Through necessity we have increased resource and analytical focus on other parts of the world in recent years—for example, the Middle East, Afghanistan and Africa. However, that does not mean that we have taken our eyes off Russia. I have just explained the upgrade that has taken place in that regard. Since 2010, the Foreign Office has increased from 43 to 56 the number of Russian speakers posted to Russia and the former Soviet Union. This week, the Foreign Office will launch an eastern Europe and central Asia cadre of experts, already counting 400 members, designed to pool experience and ensure that officials working on this region have the support and skills to lead first-class foreign policy towards Russia and the region.
I also cannot accept wholesale the report’s claim of a decline in the EU’s Russia expertise. In the past 11 years, the EU as a whole has absorbed lifetimes of experience of officials working with Russia and the Soviet Union through the accession of the Baltic states, the Visegrad four, and Black Sea states. The EU’s response to the crisis has always been in support of one clear goal—the restoration of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.
The noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, asked what action was being taken on the basis of the Budapest memorandum and thinks that we were absent from that. We were not. As I said back in October, we have tried to engage in discussions on this but the Russians simply refused on that particular point. Throughout the whole period, the Prime Minister spoke to President Putin eight times in 2014. They met most recently at the G20 in Brisbane on 15 November. The Foreign Secretary—both the current and the former one—spoke to Foreign Minister Lavrov five times in 2014, most recently in a phone call on 9 August, and the UK is playing a key role in resolving the crisis in Ukraine through the EU, UN and NATO. That goes also with regard to comments by some noble Lords about what appears to be our taking a back seat over Minsk. That is by no means the case. We have led throughout on negotiations and sanctions. It is only because of the imposition of sanctions, as I will repeat in a moment, that President Putin came to the table and we got Minsk I and what some call Minsk II.
The committee’s report notes the remarkable degree of unity seen in Brussels over the course of the crisis. I will give way but I am aware of the time.
Lord Davies of Stamford
I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. She raised the Minsk I and Minsk II agreements. An important issue arises which I tried to raise yesterday in questions on the Statement. However, I received no satisfactory answer from the Leader of the House. Yesterday’s Statement on the Council said that the sanctions would not be eased until the Minsk agreements were fully implemented. I think that I have cited that correctly. The implication there is that if the Minsk agreements are fully implemented, sanctions will be eased. However, as the noble Baroness knows, the Minsk agreements do not mention Crimea. The prospect therefore arises under the terms of the EU Council Statement yesterday that sanctions could be eased, or indeed removed, while Ukraine remained occupied by Russia. Am I reading the situation correctly? What actually is the policy of the Government and the EU in relation to sanctions and Crimea aside from sanctions and the rest of Ukraine which is dealt with in the Minsk agreements?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I assured the noble Lord that I would be answering his question later but he is so eager that perhaps, with the leave of the House, I will jump about a bit. I hope I will not confuse the rest of the House too much but at least I may perhaps enlighten the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, who asked pertinent questions on this matter.
Will the sanctions relating to Crimea be lifted if Minsk is implemented? A moment ago, I had a quick read of yesterday’s Hansard while we were continuing the debate. No, we do not, and will not, recognise the illegal annexation of Crimea by Russia. The change of borders by force is a direct challenge to international security. Sanctions relating to Crimea will remain in place until Russia returns it to Ukraine. This was made clear most recently in a statement by all 28 EU member states at this month’s Foreign Affairs Council, predating last week’s meeting. The agreement reached at the March European Council was to make clear that the tier 3 sectoral sanctions adopted in response to Russia’s actions in Donbass, not Crimea, will be lifted only once the Minsk agreement has been implemented in full. I appreciate that for some there has been conflation of the two types of sanctions. That is as far as one can go. I intend to speak about Minsk. Perhaps I may leave it at that point.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I have gone as far as I can in elucidating the matter and ought to return to the major issues around this.
We have unified in the EU around a strategy of three pillars to restore Ukrainian sovereignty. First, we are supporting Ukraine through reform assistance, emergency funds, military training and ensuring that its vital energy needs are met. We are giving Ukraine a basis on which to resist Russian pressure and succeed as a sovereign country. My noble friend Lord Risby, in particular, asked whether the UK should push Ukraine towards decentralisation. We need to continue to support Ukraine, particularly on its political commitments, such as setting out modalities for local elections on constitutional reform and reaching out to the east through national dialogue. That is part of the implementation of Minsk.
The second pillar is the diplomatic track. We are clear that this crisis will be resolved diplomatically only in a way that secures Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity in the face of Russian-backed aggression. Russia and its separatist proxies must abide by the commitments they made at Minsk.
The third pillar is pressure on Russia, primarily through sanctions. The UK has led the EU in ensuring that it agrees robust sanctions that, in concert with the fall in oil prices—to which noble Lords referred—and Russia’s own structural problems, deliver real economic pressure on Russia. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, that is why we have seen Mr Putin willing to come to the table to discuss agreements made at Minsk last September and last month. Until Russia meets the entirety of its commitments made under the Minsk agreements of September and March, we are clear that the full pressure of sanctions must remain. I am referring to Minsk, not Crimea. To do anything else would simply reward continued Russian aggression.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, if I go further, I will test the patience of the House myself. I should return to this matter; I am already going to run over what on this length of debate would be a 25-minute speech. I am hoping not to reach that.
The European Council agreed last week to link clearly the duration of sanctions against Russia,
“to the complete implementation of the Minsk agreements, bearing in mind that this is only foreseen by 31 December 2015”.
This is a clear demonstration of the political will of the EU to maintain the pressure on Russia for as long as is necessary. My noble friend Lord Howell made a skilful analysis of the Russian perspective of the geopolitical world, as did other noble Lords.
While we have focused on Ukraine, it is clear to the Government that we do not have a Ukraine crisis but a Russia crisis, of which Ukraine is the unfortunate victim. We need only look elsewhere to what Moscow terms its “near-abroad”—a term that other noble Lords have used—to see how the ripples of the Russia problem are disturbing others. Georgia’s 2008 conflict with Russia showed the international community the dangers of appeasing Moscow. The fundamental truth behind all the incidents in the eastern neighbourhood is that they reflect Russia’s world view—a world of great powers and vassal states, and a world in which the EU and Russia are strategic competitors, not strategic partners. I am grateful to the committee for so clearly identifying the true nature of this relationship. The Government are in full agreement.
How we respond to our recast relationship with Russia is a key priority, and I must respectfully disagree with the committee’s claim that the UK has no Russia strategy. On the contrary, we have a clear strategy that recognises many of the same risks and opportunities that the committee brings out in its report, and which will form the basis of how the UK interacts with Russia in the coming years. Fundamentally, we must recognise that Russia can no longer be considered a partner. Both our attempts to forge a modern and mature political relationship have, sadly, failed. None the less, we agree that we must continue to engage with Russia where it is in our interests to do so. After all, Russia is a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council and we must continue to co-operate on the key global challenges we all face. We all want to continue to trade with Russia. The report is correct in its assertion that Russia must not simply be ignored in Europe’s eastern neighbourhood. We agree. We must also do more to support civil society in Russia and to forge closer people-to-people links between us.
At the same time, we must also do more to protect ourselves, our allies and our eastern partners from Russian manoeuvring. Many noble Lords made reference to NATO. I will not repeat the excellent guidance we received from my noble friend Lord Jopling about the new, high-readiness joint task force. I will merely add an elucidation to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and others with regard to Article 5. We agree that what Article 5 means is clear. I can say also to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, that we confirm our commitment to the intent of Article 5. However, I have to say that we have always made it clear that there is not a military solution to the crisis in Ukraine.
Further, the EU and UK must support those countries in our neighbourhood that want to benefit from closer association with our way of life. That is where I am brought to talk about the Good Governance Fund, which was referred to by my noble friends Lord Caithness and Lady Neville-Jones. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister announced at the March European Council last week a new UK technical assistance programme to support reforms in countries in the eastern neighbourhood and western Balkans. In the first year, the fund will provide expert advice, training and assistance to the Governments of Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Serbia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina. There will be options to extend the fund to other countries in further years. We expect the work to be up and running this summer. The initial £20 million will come from DfID in the next financial year, but this will be a cross-government department fund. Future funding will therefore be confirmed in due course.
I add my congratulations to those of other noble Lords to my noble friend Lord Oxford and Asquith on his remarkable and informed maiden speech. It is one of those occasions where one might say one expected nothing less. He set the bar high with his experience before he came here and he proved that he will be a most valuable Member of this House. He and the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, raised the importance of strengthening the rule of law and democratic accountability, as well as reforming the police and, in particular, the justice system. I agree. We must also have anti-corruption measures to help improve transparency and encourage effective management of public finances—and to strengthen independent media to ensure balanced and accurate news and public affairs reporting. All those matters will be the subject of spending that can be achieved from this new fund. That is what it is for—to give support on those matters.
I was also interested to hear from my noble friend Lord Howell and others, such as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, about the crucial matter of energy and energy supply. I accept that the EU needs to reduce its dependence—or at least its perceived dependence—on Russian energy.
I have reached the closing part of my speech. I know that I am at 22 minutes, but I am going to test the patience of the House because I have been intervened on. I know that in a timed debate of this length I could be allowed 25 minutes, so I will rush on.
I reiterate my appreciation for the committee’s work and for the high-quality debate that we have had today. We strongly welcome the fact that the committee’s report includes a wealth of evidence, taken from a wide range of sources. However, I place on record my concern at the prominence given in some parts of the report to unjustified claims. In particular, there are assertions made by Alexander Yakovenko, Russia’s ambassador to the UK, that the committee should regard with the utmost scepticism, as I did when I met him in November and challenged his version of events. For example, he said that the EU was not ready to discuss with Russia its concerns regarding the association agreements—it was. He said that the Maidan protests were dominated by neo-Nazi and other extremist groupings. He said that the Maidan protests were supported by the EU and the US and were part of a deliberate plot against Russia. These are key elements in a deceptive Russian narrative, in which the West is to blame for Russia’s problems, and in which NATO seeks to encircle and threaten Russia. That is not the real picture. We do not see the world in such terms. We reject the charge that we have trampled over Russia’s legitimate concerns.
I can assure the committee that this Government have no intention of allowing the current crisis to break all links between Russia and the West. Diplomacy in all its forms, including all the cultural channels, is the route to better EU-Russia relations. It is right that we should follow that route: diplomacy suffers when dialogue ends.
My noble friend Lord Tugendhat asked a particular question: will the UK be represented at the 9 May Victory Day commemorations in Moscow? Yes: the UK has close historical ties with Russia, based on the sacrifices that we made in the Second World War. We have a responsibility to honour the sacrifice of our own service men and women during that conflict and pay our respects to those who died fighting for a shared cause. We will therefore be represented there on 9 May. That is the spirit in which our relationship with Russia must continue: one of continued negotiation and business, but not one of business as usual until Russia respects the sovereignty of Ukraine.
Lord Tugendhat
My Lords, I thank all who contributed to this debate and who made it such a notable occasion. I think that my colleagues on the committee and I have been greatly encouraged by the degree of support that the report has received. I also add my voice to those who congratulated my noble friend Lord Oxford and Asquith on his outstanding speech, with all the knowledge and insights that he brought to bear. Finally, I thank my noble friend the Minister for her comprehensive response and for the frankness with which she dealt with those issues on which the Government and the committee are not entirely in accord. I cannot pretend that she entirely convinced me, but she did convince me that, if she is still in post after the election, the Foreign Office will be in very good hands.
Oil Palm Plantations
Lord Eden of Winton
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the impact of oil palm plantations on world-wide climate and on the existence of indigenous animal species.
Lord Eden of Winton (Con)
My Lords, I tabled this Question because I want to know the Government’s assessment of the current extent of tropical rainforest destruction. I have sought information about this in the past and I would be grateful if the Minister could bring the facts up to date in her reply. Allied to that is the very real problem of oil palm plantations. So many of these massive plantations grow in areas that were once thriving, multispecies forests. What is the Government’s view on palm oil? What action are they taking to alert producers, manufacturers and consumers to the damaging impact that these plantations have on both our climate and the abundant life that used to thrive in the former forest environment?
Over recent years, there have been a number of attempts to get international agreement on how to regulate and control the logging of rainforests. As a result of these various meetings, there must now surely be greater understanding of how vital to our survival these forests are. Yet the destruction continues. Just a few weeks ago, the Guardian reported that companies are planning to clear more than 23,000 hectares of primary rainforest in the northern Amazon region of Peru. In total, as many as 1.5 million hectares have been identified as forest areas suitable for exploitation. Palm oil is now seen as one of the biggest threats to the Peruvian Amazon and is also now threatening the security of the great tropical forests in Gabon and the Congo basin region. Sound land management laws and plans are urgently needed to stop the indiscriminate felling of these forests.
It almost beggars belief, when so much is known about the value of rainforests, that Governments can still connive in their destruction. I am well aware that important meetings are to take place in coming months in this connection. The UN Secretary-General is personally giving huge emphasis to the need for concerted action on sustainable development goals. There is going to be a meeting in New York in September, and I very much hope that our Prime Minister will be present and participate in it. There will also be the vital intergovernmental climate change negotiations in Paris in December, at which I hope the future of the world’s tropical forests takes centre stage. That meeting must, this time, herald real action.
In the few moments left to me, I will focus on the spread of oil palm plantations and the devastating impact that it can have on human, plant and animal life. Palm oil is now found in 50% to 60% of all packaged foods, and the demand for it has been growing rapidly. According to one source, when compared with the level of demand in 2000, consumption of palm oil is predicted to double by 2030 and to triple by 2050.
Indonesia and Malaysia are the countries principally engaged in the conversion of rainforest to oil palms. They account for something like 86% of global palm oil production. When natural forests and peat-lands, which store very large stocks of carbon, are converted to oil palm plantations, carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere, and that has a serious effect on climatic conditions. The logging and burning also destroy the homes and habitat of forest-dwelling people and wildlife. Most people would, I am sure, be horrified to learn that as consumers of products containing palm oil we are engaging in the slaughter of a long list of plant, insect and animal life.
A major tragedy is the destruction of so much of the primary forest cover in Borneo and Sumatra. Some 300,000 different animal species are affected as a result. The Sumatran tiger and rhinoceros, the sun bear and pygmy elephant, the clouded leopard and proboscis monkey are all threatened. The Sumatran tiger could become extinct in three years. Perhaps the most iconic creature of all is the orangutan. These wonderful, intelligent and sensitive animals share 97% of their DNA with humans. They play a vital role in maintaining the health of the forest ecosystem. In two decades, at least 50,000 of these animals have died as a direct result of forest clearance in response to the growing demand for palm oil. Orangutans are being mercilessly killed and their young captured and sold as pets for human entertainment. Unless something is done now, they could become extinct in the wild in five to 10 years.
So what is to be done to stop this slaughter and desecration? There are steps that can be taken, but they need to be driven by determined political will. First, of course, we must engage with the Governments of the producer countries. We have to accept that the production of palm oil is increasingly important to their economies. To what extent is international financial support being provided under the auspices of the REDD+ scheme? Who is monitoring and checking what happens to the funds being distributed?
Most urgently, there should be an immediate halt to the development of oil palm plantations on peat-land. This usually involves burning and results in substantial greenhouse gas emissions. It is also important that there is active shareholder and customer pressure on companies using palm oil to be open about what they are doing. Transparency is essential. Referring to “vegetable oil” on the label is simply not good enough. If manufacturers use palm oil, that should be declared. Consumers could then make an informed choice about whether to continue using the product.
The Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil offers some hope of international action. Founded in 2004 and now widely supported, one of its targets is to ensure that all palm oil used in the UK comes from sustainable sources by the end of this year. However, we have to recognise that acquiring certificates of sustainability could very likely involve the clearance of secondary or degraded forest land. Partially logged primary forest can sometimes be retrieved and restored for the benefit of wildlife and humans. There are in fact loopholes, quickly exploited by the unscrupulous. We need to be more precise, for example, in the definitions of tropical rainforests the better to guarantee their protection.
To sum up, the logging of rainforests is a real threat to the survival of life on this planet. To go on conspiring in their destruction is selfish, senseless stupidity. We must wake up to our own responsibilities for what is happening. Great forests are being felled; whole populations of forest-dwelling people are being cast aside; thousands of mammals, birds, insects and plants are being crushed; and our climate is being polluted and changed—all this so that we can enjoy palm oil in products such as crackers, crisps, cream cheese and chocolate. It really is madness. It has to be stopped and stopped now before it is too late.
The Earl of Dundee (Con)
My Lords, in view of government targets for this year, my noble friend Lord Eden is timely in his introduction of this debate. We will all be very grateful to him.
I should like to make a few brief points: on our further actions to achieve the objective that total United Kingdom consumption should come from sustainable resources, on how we monitor these endeavours, on the persuasion of our European partners, and on concerted action internationally.
Recent evidence is certainly encouraging. In 2013 we learn that between 55% and 71% of United Kingdom palm oil products were passed by the body that analyses and certifies derivations, the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil. Many United Kingdom business consumers are thus supportive. These include a high proportion of processors, manufacturers and distributors. Nevertheless, another not insignificant proportion while co-operative remains less than committed. What plans are there to increase commitment, not least that of those now designated for targeting, including small and medium-sized enterprises and the hospital sector?
Can the Minister also say which incentives the Government intend to offer and to what extent mandatory European Union requirements within the renewable energy directive will be implemented?
For the proper monitoring of progress, one continuing problem may be the technical difficulty of segregating and recording quantities that are genuinely those of sustainable palm oil. In view of this, how far does my noble friend consider that the current arrangements for analysis and monitoring should be adapted to achieve greater accuracy and transparency?
On European solidarity, a number of states are as concerned as we are, particularly the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries, while in any case the renewable energy directive obliges all EU members to implement its standards.
However, several other interventions could strengthen both European and international resolve. On this issue there is a case for European states to come together, either formally or informally, whether in small or larger groupings. The United Kingdom might take a lead in that. All the more so would such an initiative serve to persuade European consumers to use sustainable palm oil. If that is worth entertaining in Europe, not least is it also worth considering internationally by forming working groups of states to promote the same purpose. Might the Government, therefore, facilitate such projects, both within and outside Europe?
Then there is the potential impact of Europe’s own good practice upon states elsewhere and its encouragement only to use sustainable resources. This goal is well supported by the EU’s membership, as it is by the Council of Europe’s affiliation of 47 states. Can my noble friend say what plans there may be to deploy European influence accordingly?
So far there is cause to take heart. We can be proud of our own results. Elsewhere, there is evidence of willingness to match these. Yet, as my noble friend Lord Eden reminded us, to the detriment of animals and the environment, far too much unnecessary destruction of the rain forests still occurs. Nationally and internationally, to attain a 100% use of sustainable resources a great deal still has to be done and attention given to combined and co-operative measures to raise commitment.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I should like to speak briefly in the gap for two reasons. The first is to endorse most wholeheartedly the powerful, persuasive and utterly convincing speech of my noble friend Lord Eden. He spoke with a controlled passion and a deep knowledge that ought to have a wider audience. I hope that his speech will be drawn to the attention of many people, because he has highlighted a real global threat. When he talked about the possible impending extinction of species such as the orangutan and the Sumatran tiger, there can be no one who would not be extremely concerned and moved by what he said.
However, I speak for one other reason. Noble Lords who have looked at the green pages may have seen that there is a list headed, “Forthcoming retirements”. Although we did not have a valedictory speech—it would be marvellous if we had one during the Queen’s Speech, although none of us knows quite when that is going to happen—we now know that my noble friend Lord Eden is going on 11 June. So if by chance this should indeed prove to be his last speech in your Lordships’ House, and it will certainly be his last QSD, I think he deserves the thanks and approbation of us all, not only for what he has said this evening and for the manner in which he is preparing to depart this House but for what he has done over so many years.
I have many fond memories of my noble friend, the first of which dates back to 1970 when I, as the young Member of Parliament for Cannock, and he, I think, as the Minister of State for Industry at the time, invited him to come to Cannock. Together we donned our miners’ uniforms, put on our helmets and went down the Littleton Colliery. From that moment on, I always looked upon my noble friend as a good sport and a Minister who was determined to understand the areas for which he was responsible. He has shown noble Lords tonight that although he may have aged—it is not very noticeable, because he looks much the same as he did all those years ago—he has not lost the spark of youth, the determination to tackle important issues, and the ability to draw the attention of your Lordships’ House to their importance.
Baroness Worthington (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for a very eloquent tribute to the wonderful speech of the noble Lord, Lord Eden. Perhaps we ought to start a tradition where provision is made for a valedictory QSD on retirement so that we can discuss topics of great importance. The House has benefited greatly from the distinguished and long career of the noble Lord, Lord Eden, and the passions that he has sustained throughout his time in this place, including his interest in the Rainforest Alliance and the Jane Goodall Institute. It is clear that this is a subject which is dear to his heart and I am grateful to him for his speech. It has given us a comprehensive overview of many of the issues associated with the destruction of rainforests arising from our use of palm oil.
It is obviously true that palm oil is now almost ubiquitous in many of our packaged foods. The statistic is often quoted that 50% of supermarket products contain palm oil. Over the years the profile of this issue has risen and there has been increasing pressure on the supply chain to become more sustainable and to reduce its impact. Indeed, the UK among other countries has signed up to a target of using 100% sustainable palm oil by this year. So my first question for the Minister echoes one that has already been posed by the noble Lord, Lord Eden: how are we doing on that target? Will we reach 100% by the end of this year? It seems that we are making progress because the noble Lord talked about that, as did the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, in relation to the percentage that might be deemed sustainable. However, how we are going to reach the 100% target is the question.
Underlying that is the thorny question of how to prove that the certification process is robust. Since 2004 we have approached this issue on the basis of self-regulation. An NGO-led initiative created the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil production. It is a multi-stakeholder process which seems to have had some success, but the very organisation which formed it, the WWF, stated recently that it is in need of fundamental reform. There are still concerns about whether the certification process is robust enough. Those concerns include the continuing threat of deforestation and logging, the planting of plantations on peat land, the fear that forest fires are being used to clear land which is subsequently planted, the use of pesticides and, indeed, the greenhouse gas emissions associated with the intensive agricultural practices used on palm oil plantations. We rely on this certification process, yet there is a fear that it is not robust. We ought to remember that the process is only certifying roughly 18% of global production of palm oil. What of the other 82%?
It is difficult to find the right adjective, but my fear is that the process is not rigorous enough and is self-policing in a way that means it is not being done with enough due diligence and seriousness.
I looked into the RSPO a bit further, as I was interested in the membership of the round table—who the governors are and who sits on the board. It seems to me that the board is predominantly made up of people with vested interests. The largest number of seats goes to the oil palm growers, followed by the palm oil processors, the consumer goods manufacturers and the bankers—that is pretty much everyone, bar two environmental conservation NGOs and two social development NGOs. What seems to be missing is any representation from the scientific community. Indeed, where are the Governments in this?
I am an old-fashioned environmental campaigner and I believe in regulation. I think that we can pursue these issues through voluntarism and encouragement of labelling, but ultimately, if we are serious about avoiding deforestation, there has to be a UN-based international approach to this. We are entering a period where we are gaining ways to gather and process information about our globe and the planet we inhabit. We now know more, more quickly, about what is happening on the planet that we all share. I would have thought, given modern surveillance and everything that we can do with satellite monitoring, there ought to be a more considered approach from the UN as to how we manage the lungs, essentially, of the planet—the forests that keep our planet rich in biodiversity and provide such vital climatic services, such that we cannot afford to lose them.
Of course, it is easy to say that, and at the heart of all of this is a tension between economic development and the need to preserve biodiversity. It is very easy for us in our developed societies in the West to say, “We must discourage the commercial exploitation of these forests and this land because we rely on it”. That almost imperialistic view of how to engage with this problem cannot continue or be sustained. We must find an answer with those producing nations, whereby they can move to more sustainable economic growth patterns and are rewarded for preserving those things to which we attach so much value, such as the biodiversity and climatic services of these forests.
As the noble Lord, Lord Eden, mentioned, we are going to see some sustainable development goals set in New York, and we will then move to Paris, where we will discuss the UNFCCC. I fear that we might be pinning rather too many hopes on to that one meeting in Paris. We already face the challenge of how to control our fossil fuel-based energy emissions. In parallel, we have been discussing the related and very important issue of land-use change and deforestation and trying to create incentives to preserve our forests. Until very recently, there was a proposal that we ought to be engaging in some kind of carbon trading, where we would allow polluters to continue polluting in order to preserve forests. I think now it is finally being realised that these two things need to be done separately: we need to price carbon and reduce carbon emissions as well as creating financial incentives to preserve our rainforests and, indeed, the forests all over world that sustain biodiversity and act as a carbon sink. But where will the money come from? That seems to be the nub of many problems to do with these international global issues where there is a high degree of complexity due to equity and sustainable development—who is going to pay whom to do what, and who will oversee it? I do not have the answers and I do not think we will have time to arrive at them this evening, but relying on a self-regulating system that is now over a decade old has been criticised from a number of quarters for lacking teeth. I note that on 9 March, 100 members of the RSPO were suspended due to the failure to report. It feels like this initiative might well be running into the buffers. Perhaps we need to go back to the UN charter and back to Rio, and start to rethink how we deal with these big issues of global land management.
Tonight’s debate has focused on palm oil—quite rightly, because it brings an interesting and unique set of challenges—but it is by far not the only crop that has these associated problems. Soya production is another example—in fact, it is probably an even more widely used product in terms of volume—that we must tackle. There are countless other non-food related crops where you could question the sense of using land for them. I would include in that the global land given up for tobacco production, which also has a deforestation impact.
There are big issues to be looked at but I am not convinced by the voluntary, vested interests-led, stakeholder approach. It feels a little dated and possibly needs to be looked at again in the light of member state co-operation. This has to be sorted out at government level. We probably need to look at some form of international oversight. We thank the RSPO for the work it has been able to do but the time has probably come to acknowledge that it is time to move on.
I have enjoyed this debate very much and again thank the noble Lord, Lord Eden, for his contribution tonight and for his passion for this topic throughout the years. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, I start by sincerely thanking my noble friend Lord Eden of Winton for raising this very important issue. He became the country’s youngest MP in 1954 and went on to join the Lords in 1983. On his retirement this June, he will have served an incredible 61 years in Parliament. His expertise will be sorely missed. I thank my noble friend Lord Cormack for the tribute that he paid.
I also note that my noble friend Lord Eden was vice-president of the International Tree Foundation for more than 40 years, which brings me back to the subject of today’s debate: the impact of palm oil plantations on our planet’s climate and biodiversity. Needless to say, the Government are fully committed to responding to the challenge of land use change to our planet’s climate and biodiversity. Globally, as we have heard, around 13 million hectares of forest were converted to other uses or lost through natural causes each year between 2000 and 2010. More action is needed if we are to meet our objective of halving deforestation by 2020 and ending natural forest loss by 2030.
We have heard from my noble friend Lord Eden and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, of all the uses of palm oil, and global demand for palm oil is expected only to grow. Estimates by the Earth Security Group suggest that demand will increase by 32% by 2020. Production of palm oil is already increasing in Colombia, Brazil, Papua New Guinea and areas of west and central Africa. Yet there is growing recognition that unsustainable production of palm oil may increase the destruction of tropical rainforest and drainage of peat-land areas. In turn, this destruction has major impacts on biodiversity, climate change and the land rights of local peoples, as we have heard.
For example, we know that clearing forests and peat-lands releases huge amounts of greenhouse gases; oil palm plantations hold fewer than half as many vertebrate species as primary forests; and conversion of forests to plantations can reduce the number of bird species by at least 60%. The species most at threat are those which rely on habitats that are not found in palm oil plantations: animals as diverse as the Malaysia river frog, the orangutan—as we have heard—and the Borneo elephant.
We recognise the need for a better understanding of these impacts if we are going to respond in the most effective way. That is why Defra and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee, together with the Stockholm Environment Institute, have developed a model to assess the potential impact of UK imports on the environment and biodiversity overseas. A project using this model to evaluate the impact of palm oil plantations on biodiversity in south-east Asia, sub-Saharan Africa and South America is due to report in May, and we look forward to those results. However, this should not delay, and has not delayed, the Government from taking action to promote both the supply and the demand of sustainably produced palm oil.
Efforts have been made to produce palm oil more sustainably, and chief among them, as we know, is the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil. The RSPO is a global, multi-stakeholder organisation where businesses and NGOs have worked together to agree principles and criteria for the sustainable production of palm oil, develop a certification system and bring certified sustainable palm oil to market. However, I hear the concerns that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, has when she asks: where is the scientific community and where is the rigour in their inspection? The RSPO has been effective in many areas and is the key international organisation driving the move to sustainable palm oil. Without it, the transition would be extremely difficult. There are still some areas of the RSPO principles and criteria that the Government would like to see tightened, notably the inclusion of a standard on greenhouse gas emissions.
The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, also wondered about the inclusion of the United Nations. In November 2014, the United Nations environment programme and the RSPO signed a memorandum of understanding, which aims to raise global awareness and generate market demand for sustainable palm oil. Moves are in hand on that.
In the UK, we have been working with trade associations, NGOs and others since 2011 to encourage the switch to the sustainable sourcing of palm oil. During the Prime Minister’s visit to Indonesia in April 2012, we announced that we would work with British trade associations and companies to set out a road map to achieving sustainable palm oil use nationwide. In October 2012, we published a joint statement with key palm oil-using sectors, setting out that:
“The United Kingdom is working towards achieving 100% sourcing of credibly certified sustainable palm oil by the end of 2015”.
The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, talked about this, and we are working towards it. The Government are also a signatory to the statement and fund a support service for businesses to move to sustainable sourcing. We track progress towards this shared ambition through annual palm oil consumption reports. We have also amended the government buying standard for food and catering so that all food and catering products bought by central government must meet sustainability requirements from the end of 2015.
The UK is one of the leading importer countries encouraging the move to sustainable palm oil and the latest figures show that the UK is making progress. Analysis shows that the estimated proportion of UK palm oil imports supported by the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil certification was either 55% or 71% in 2013, depending on the trade data source.
Internationally, we are working with Governments, the private sector, scientists and civil society in a range of countries to incentivise sustainable palm oil production and reduce carbon emissions and habitat loss through combating deforestation.
My noble friend Lord Dundee raised the issue of European co-operation. We are supportive of greater knowledge exchange and co-ordination between national commitments and have already participated in a number of meetings with representatives of other national commitments. More generally, the EU is considering the development of an action plan on deforestation and forest degradation, as outlined in the EU’s seventh environmental action programme. The Government support consideration of an action plan to promote Europe-wide action on the supply and demand of commodities linked to deforestation. We will certainly seek to work with our European neighbours in this respect.
I would like to highlight two key programmes aiming to make a difference in Malaysia and Indonesia. The first is the Government’s £3.9 billion international climate fund, for which tackling global deforestation is a priority. In total, over £500 million has been committed to forestry projects, and a number of noble Lords asked about the funding for this. The Department for International Development has recently invested £60 million in a new programme that has the potential to improve the productivity of existing smallholder palm oil plantations, whose yields are typically half those of professional plantations and who apply higher environmental and social standards. In that way, we can help farmers increase their yields without having to clear more forest.
Secondly, since 2013, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s South East Asia Prosperity Fund programme has supported a project that aims to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, particularly those linked to palm oil plantations. This project has created a knowledge exchange network between policy advisers, local and international NGOs, businesses and scientists. The network disseminates scientific information and informs evidence-based policy development on sustainable oil palm production in Malaysia and Indonesia.
These programmes support wider government action to protect endangered species and valuable peat-lands affected by the demand for palm oil. In 2013, the orangutan was a featured species in our awareness-raising campaign, If They’re Gone, which focused on the need for sustainable palm oil. The Government have provided $500,000 to the Global Tiger Initiative, which aims to double tiger numbers in the wild by 2022.
My noble friend asked what progress was being made on REDD+ and who was monitoring the distribution of funds. UK International Climate Fund finance for forests is used for all three phases of REDD+. DECC, Defra and DfID support the Forest Carbon Partnership Facility, the BioCarbon Fund and the Forest Investment Program. These programmes are administered and monitored by the World Bank and are subject to periodic independent review. We welcome the progress made by more than 50 countries in developing programmes that support efforts to slow, halt and reverse deforestation. Separately, I note that this week my noble friend Lord De Mauley is leading the UK delegation in Botswana in a follow-up conference to last year’s London conference on combating the illegal wildlife trade.
However, this Government’s efforts do not stop there. The UK is playing a leading role in negotiations both on a legally binding climate agreement and on the sustainable development goals. I assure my noble friend that we will be represented at the New York meeting in September. My noble friend was quite right to highlight the opportunity that these negotiations will afford. Both are essential for the international community and should enable us to agree an effective response to global issues and to protect our planet’s natural resources.
My noble friend Lord Eden asked about the blurring of the definitions of “forest” and “rainforest” which enables people to avoid conservation obligations. All international agreements which promote the concept of sustainable forest management apply to all types of forest, irrespective of their origins. That is deliberate, as it allows recognition of the specific economic, social and environmental roles played by different types of forest.
My noble friend asked what Her Majesty’s Government’s objectives were for the Paris COP in December. Here, the UK is working with EU member states and other countries to secure a legally binding agreement with mitigation commitments for all in Paris at the end of the year.
My noble friend Lord Dundee asked how we target SMEs in the hospital sector. The door remains open to organisations wishing to sign up to the UK statement. Defra is working with the Central Point of Expertise on Timber and trade associations to provide support to businesses including SMEs on sourcing sustainable palm oil. We recognise that there are a significant number of SMEs in the food, drink and hospitality sectors, and CPET has been working with the relevant trade associations to provide support that meets the needs of its members. My noble friend also asked to what extent mandatory EU requirements, in particular the renewable energy directive, would be implemented. Since 2011, all biofuels rewarded under the UK’s renewable transport fuel obligation have had to meet mandatory sustainability criteria provided for the renewable energy directive.
I am extremely grateful to noble Lords for the issues raised in today’s debate. I hope that I have covered the various questions raised in my reply, but I will be more than happy to pass on any specific questions to my counterparts in DfID, Defra and DECC. Once again, I thank my noble friend Lord Eden for initiating this debate on such an important topic and for the passion with which he spoke. I also thank other noble Lords who provided contributions and questions on this issue. We shall all hope for real action and engagement in the months ahead and for an improvement in the situation as it stands.
Sports: Volunteering
Lord Allen of Kensington
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the social and economic value of sports volunteering in the United Kingdom.
Lord Allen of Kensington (Lab)
My Lords, it is 50 years ago this very month that Soviet cosmonaut Alexei Leonov made the historic first space walk. He created a new world record of immense magnitude. Alexei’s achievement has inspired thousands upon thousands to become cosmonauts, astronauts, engineers and pilots. How did he achieve that remarkable feat? By sheer optimism, effort and the synergy of a team that pushed the boundaries of ambition, technology and physical and mental fitness.
In the memorable summer of 2012, 32 new world records in eight sports were set at the London 2012 Olympics, and an astonishing 199 Paralympic and world records were set at the Paralympic Games. For each of those athletes, achieving that record was the finale of an incredible journey. For many, it started when their talent was spotted by a teacher or a parent who encouraged them to join a local sports club and, as they say, the rest was history.
An incredible part of our sports ecosystem are the 150,000 clubs and community projects, all started by local people wanting to do their bit, helping, supporting and encouraging kids, regardless of their talent, to be the best that they can be. Our little Leos or little Lindas are inspired by clubs to get involved in community sport, and some of them go on to compete at regional and then national events. Ask any of our elite athletes, as I have, and they will tell you that grass-roots sport was a vital component in developing their full potential and broadening their ambition.
That vital component is built on the foundation of thousands upon thousands of unpaid volunteers in every town and village across the country. They are volunteers like Ken, who turns up week-in, week-out, on a wet Wednesday in Wigan to coach at the local running club. They are volunteers like Sue, who on a hot summer’s day in Slough can be found indoors teaching teenage girls synchronised swimming at the local pool. These unpaid volunteers outnumber paid staff by 20 to one, and are often more highly valued. Not forgetting my background as an accountant, to me, “value” is a good word to use, because each volunteer is investing their time to help others achieve their potential.
The Join In Trust, which I have the privilege to chair, and to which I shall return later, recently published some research into the social value of sports volunteering. The Bank of England’s chief economist, Andy Haldane, says:
“Whether seen from an economic or social perspective, volunteering is big business, with annual turnover well into three-figure billions”.
Join In’s research, entitled Hidden Diamonds, shows how huge those figures are. Each sports volunteer creates more than £16,000 of social value every year. That is the equivalent of Croatia’s GDP. Join In’s recruits add the equivalent of the GDP of the Cayman Islands.
Why, if income from drugs and prostitution is included in the GDP figures, is the social value of volunteering not? If it were, the UK would be rated fifth in the world, ahead of Japan, but, of course, that is not why volunteers do the amazing work that they do. Many do it to help their communities. Research shows that sports volunteers are four times more likely to trust others in the community and eight times more likely to feel that they have some influence over their local communities. They are a really important element of community cohesion, which is vital when so many things threaten to tear our communities apart. Many say that they volunteer to give something back because they were helped by others. A few of those volunteers may have gone on to become top-class athletes in their own right, but most feel that they benefit from improved self-esteem, physical and mental fitness or learnt team skills.
Now there is a new generation of volunteers, each creating capacity for more than eight other people to become active—one volunteer creating capacity for eight and a half people to become active. Volunteer Dean Scopes in Fareham, has done just that. Seeing Join In on the telly, Dean logged on to the Join In website and set up a profile to recruit others to help him run a kids football team. They were so successful that they set up not one but two teams. That is important because data from Public Health England show that almost a third of 10 to 11 year-olds are overweight or obese, so getting kids into sport is an effective and inexpensive way of averting the chronic health time bomb that is on the horizon for this generation. The health and emotional well-being of volunteers also benefits, as volunteers are measurably happier than non-volunteers.
We are a nation which loves our sport and whether we wish to participate or spectate, there is so much on offer here in the UK. Following the success of the Olympics and Paralympics in the UK, it is fast becoming the destination for the world’s top sporting events. But hosting these events is a bit like putting a cosmonaut into space; it requires a huge team with many skills and disciplines. For sporting events of this kind, the team will include many volunteers, without whom the event would simply not take place. Join In has helped to recruit volunteers for many events, including the Tour de France, the BBC’s “Sport Relief” and the Invictus Games. It works closely with UK Sport and hopes to continue this role to secure future gold series by building on the success of the amazing 2012 Games makers.
What value can we place on hosting these events? We know that the 2012 Games brought in excess of £14 billion in regeneration but the legacy goes way beyond that. Like many of my generation who were inspired to do incredible things by seeing Alexei Leonov take his historic first step, our young people are being inspired to take up sport by the success of British athletes in major world sporting events. They want to follow in the footsteps of Chris Hoy and Victoria Pendleton, our most successful Olympians. They want to be as good as our great Paralympians Sarah Storey and David Weir, who each won four gold medals on British soil at the 2012 Games. It is really difficult to put a financial figure on inspiration but our generation knows, from the space race, what extraordinary benefits can flow from it.
Finally, I said that I would say a little more about Join In, which started as a project during the 2012 Games. With help and financial support from the Cabinet Office, BT and Intersport, it later became an independent charity. Join In finds and inspires more than 100,000 volunteers per year by running incredible public campaigns. Those volunteers create the social value that I have described today, and without them the nation would be a much worse place. Although around £1.2 billion is invested in sport each year, little of that goes into investing to inspire, recruit and retain volunteers—something that I am proud to say Join In has done so successfully. I hope that the Minister will recognise in his remarks the social value of volunteering and its role in tackling inactivity and obesity. Perhaps he may even be able to pledge greater investment in sports volunteering.
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, we find ourselves when we lose ourselves in the service of others. The words of the greatness that was Mahatma Gandhi would seem particularly appropriate to the essence of what we are discussing today. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Allen, for instigating this incredibly significant debate. I had the great pleasure of working alongside him in the planning and delivery of London 2012. What he achieved there was nothing short of stunning, not least in creating and chairing the nations and regions group which took the Games out to all four corners of our country to enable individuals, businesses and public and private organisations to connect with the opportunity that was the London 2012 Olympic Games and Paralympic Games.
A key element of that was obviously the opportunity for individuals to volunteer to be at the beating heart of London 2012. They were more than volunteers; they were Games makers, the individuals who quite simply made the Games happen. Rightly feted and praised post-Games, their royal purple T-shirts will live for ever in the memories of all who participated, all who viewed and all who had anything to do with that sensational summer of sport. That is really what we are about today: volunteers at the heart of British sport. Usain Bolt’s world records, Super Saturday, three British gold medals in 46 minutes in the Olympic Stadium, Sarah Storey’s, Jonnie Peacock’s and Ellie Simmonds’s Paralympic golds and all the gold, silver and bronze medals won at the London 2012 Olympic Games and Paralympic Games could not have happened were it not for the Games makers.
I could not have even begun my own sporting career without a whole series of volunteers, not least at Kidderminster swimming club, where my journey began—Bob Chapman, Alan Babb and George Knowles, to name just three—and then when I qualified for my first international sporting event, the European Championships in Moscow, with Roy Smith as team manager and Kimiyo Rickett as assistant team manager. They were all volunteers, putting their time, energy, effort and, crucially, their passion into sports. None of the medals that I was lucky enough to win could even have begun without volunteers being part of every stage of my sporting journey. A piece of every gold, silver and bronze medal that I have is owned by all the volunteers who helped me to train, to get to the trials, to qualify, to get to the starting blocks and to touch those omega time pads first. None of it would have been possible without hundreds and hundreds of people giving their time.
So to some of the evidence, the evidence that tells us that this is not just about sport—it is about the social, economic, real, significant, measurable, tangible and positive impact on our nation. Consider the chief executives of national governing bodies’ 2015 State of Play report, which says that 1.9 million people are engaged in volunteering with the national governing bodies, contributing an estimated £4.9 billion to the UK economy. That number swells even more if we go wider across the whole sporting family. Just consider one professional sport, the sport of racing: 6,000 hours of volunteering were committed to racing across Britain just last year.
The Sport and Recreation Alliance is a key player in this area. It is the umbrella organisation for all the governing bodies of sport. It has lined up with Step Up To Serve to get under the skin of what is required to deliver more volunteers into sport. That is critical because sport and recreation could not exist in this country were it not for volunteers. A 2013 Sports and Recreation Alliance survey of sports clubs showed that the average number of volunteers in any club in 2011 was 21 people. That is 21 people volunteering in their local sports club, nine of whom would be qualified coaches—people giving their own time not just to come down to the club and be part of it but to do a recognised qualification in coaching in order to give to the youngsters in their local community. As a result of London 2012, the number of volunteers in those clubs increased on average by 25% in just a year. That is sensational, but many clubs also reported no increase in volunteering and a desperate need for volunteers. So I say to anyone out there, if you are thinking about volunteering in sport, do not think about it, do not consider it, just do it. Join in.
That takes us to an organisation born out of London 2012 which has already been eloquently set out by the noble Lord, Lord Allen. It is worth underscoring, although in a debate on sport underscoring might not be quite the right phrase. Join In was born out of London 2012 to drive the volunteering legacy from the Games. There has been fantastic support from the private sector and the Cabinet Office to deliver more volunteers in more sports than at any time in our history. To underline the economics, for every volunteer, 8.5 people participate in that sport who would not be able to were it not for that one volunteer. We are talking much wider than coaches. We are talking about the people who wash the team kit, the people who open the changing rooms, the people who make the sandwiches and the people who drive the team to away fixtures. All these people are volunteers and are vital to enable sport to happen.
What does the Minister believe should be done to increase the recognition of the role of volunteers in enabling participation in sport in our country? Going wider than just sport into recreation and the well-being agenda and so much wider than just DCMS, can he assure noble Lords that every government department that has a role in this area will grip that role and recognise what volunteers do and what they contribute socially and economically to our nation? What are the Government doing in general to secure the volunteering legacy from that sensational summer of sport in London in 2012?
Sport without volunteers is not sport as we know it in this nation. Sport relies on volunteers. Volunteers enable the brightness, the brilliance, the beauty of sport to shine through. To the Games makers of London 2012, the Clyde-siders of Glasgow 2014, the millions of volunteers in clubs, community projects and events up and down our country, I say thank you. Thank you for everything you do. You make a difference, you change people’s lives, you make Britain better.
Lord Addington (LD)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Allen, has drawn our attention to a very important facet of our society. Initially when thinking about the economic and social value, a little part of me said, “Economic value? You cannot put an economic value on this”. Well, you can because you are doing something that would not otherwise be done, and that makes our society a better place to live in. You are saying, “Get involved. Do something. Get something you are involved in. Interact with people”. When it comes to the economic value of small clubs, there is something that nobody else has mentioned: every small club that I have ever seen is actually a labour exchange as well. It is a recruitment base. I am not sure that the taxman approves of mates’ rates all the time, but things happen there. It is a place where you have a social connection.
What allows that to happen? It is the volunteers. Let me make a plea for a group of volunteers who we have not named yet. We talk about the coaches and the organisers, and we have even heard about the person who makes the sandwiches. Let us say something about the treasurers and the secretaries, the people who take on the legally required work that would not happen without them. What do we do to support them? Not much. This is where the worlds of sport and politics can talk to each other, because we are all dependent upon the person who looks up the rules and keeps the budget—all these functions. Indeed, the world of politics at the moment is totally dependent, as are our party machines, on people who do this work. The people who are involved in sport do it for even purer motives: that is, to go out and have interaction that helps you. Are their motives any purer than those of the person who runs the local choral or am-dram society? Probably not, but you are still doing something that will make your life and the lives of those around you slightly better.
What do we do to help these people? As I said, not that much. The governing bodies in sport invest some time, training and organisation, but not enough. What is required is for the political class to get its act together and support the people who take on these—let us face it—fairly boring but essential jobs. You do those jobs to allow yourself and other people to become involved in those activities. We have never really taken them on and supported them properly.
It would be very helpful if local authorities had a combined strategy to make sure that more people are encouraged to get qualified and do those jobs better. The mistakes that occur in those voluntary organisations —and they do occur—could be minimised: everything from fraud to simply filling out the wrong form. Cricket—I always remember the correct terminology in cricket—provided me with a little list of things you have to do: business rates, community and amateur sports clubs, tax relief, corporation tax, grants and loans. These people deal with that lot, and I have not exhausted the list, which goes on and on: recruiting new members, making sure that you have money in the right place to pay a groundsman, or to pay the fees so that you have a pitch to play on or a hall to train in. That is all required from them, and we are not addressing and supporting these people in any way sufficiently.
Coaches often get praise, but they cannot function without that background. The players who go out there and provide the base, the interaction, cannot function without that going on. Can my noble friend therefore just start to give us a little hint of what we are doing to encourage and support these groups of volunteers, which are dominant in all forms of social activity? I will kick my own party in the shins, and say to the Opposition Benches, “Hey, let’s join in. Let’s make sure that we encourage everybody here to get involved”. If we leave this group alone, we start to leave the real foundation alone.
We then turn around and say, “The state should organise when you play your sport, what you should do, and what goes on”, or we go to somebody who does it for economic profit. Okay, fair enough, it would still happen, but not in the same way. More money would be siphoned off, and it probably would not happen as often. You suddenly start having to say, “Who are our target?”. In the same way, when the state says that it wants to develop certain athletes, is it interested in the older person it is helping just to stay healthy? Not to the same extent. All these other activities are going on, but that social interaction is not going on. If there is another way, it is probably not as good. That comes back to the initial concept mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Allen: the idea of value. How are we supporting and building up those groups?
You could say a number of things. It is a good idea to support and recognise these people through local and national honours, but there are not enough of those to go round. We can turn around and say to everybody else—to other groups—“You have a duty to go in and encourage people to take those roles on”, but unless the sports themselves develop that, it will not happen. They will not be able to do that properly without the structure and some form of government support. It may not have to be big financial support, but it will have to be something that encourages and builds. It will go on almost for ever—as could I on this subject, but I will not. It is great, but please can we pay attention to the basis and foundation of what is going on? If we do not, we are in danger of saying, “Go and join in and get on with it”, without having anywhere to channel that energy.
That energy needs to be channelled—and wonderful as the Olympic Games makers were, we discovered afterwards that we did not know what to do with all that energy. Sometimes people said, “That was fun, but I’m going back to the rest of my life”. It is about giving them something else that they can go to, and the fact that we give them a structure to go to is very important. We cannot provide for great big one-off issues such as the Olympics to happen all the time; we have to make it easier and more attractive to put down those foundations. We have a group of people who will pay a membership fee to fill out forms to allow other people to take part in a social activity that benefits the whole of society. If we do not support that, we are definitely looking a gift horse in the mouth and trying to pull its teeth out at the same time.
Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Allen, for tabling this debate tonight. In doing so, I declare a number of interests listed in the register, the most pertinent being that as of this morning I am now a trustee of Join In. I very much look forward to continuing that work and channelling the positive energy of volunteers. I am also a trustee of the Duke of Edinburgh awards and president of Sports Leaders UK, which are in different ways involved in volunteering.
I am well aware of the impact that volunteers had on my own career. Like the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, without volunteers I would not have been able to be a Paralympian. It is a huge thank you for what they did—from Roy Anthony at Bridgend Athletics Club to Dave Williams at Cardiff Athletics Club to my long-suffering husband, who was my longest-serving coach in my career. My husband coaches a number of athletes and just recently he suggested that we might like to spend a day together next week, which is quite unusual because of the work that I do in London. He offered to take me on a first aid course, which is quite important for his coaching in triathlon.
I have been interested in volunteering for a number of years, not just from a selfish point of view but from some of the very early Sport England research to the Russell Commission on youth volunteering, out of which came vInspired in 2006. I sat on that board for a number of years. I am very interested in how volunteering is developing and growing, because it gives back such a huge amount of financial support. Whether it is the Join In data that show that it is £1.6 billion, or the Sport and Recreation Alliance, which shows that the contribution is more than £2 billion, it is a significant amount of money. The Taking Part quarterly report from the DCMS showed an increase of up to 21.9% over the past year in the number of volunteers who had some connection with sport—so sport is something that we are very passionate about in this country.
The 2012 Games—both the Olympics and the Paralympics—were incredible, and huge praise is due to the Games makers. One thing that they did very well, apart from making volunteering quite cool, was to be realistic in showing the reality of volunteering. A lot of the adverts said, “You are unlikely to get the men’s 100 metres final”. That is really important, because the Commonwealth Games and the Olympic and Paralympic Games are amazing things to be part of, but the reality is that it is day-in, day-out, week-in and week-out. The Games makers all talked about the cultural exchange and being an indirect part of the national team. I was tweeted by somebody today who said that they had been a volunteer at six Commonwealth Games, among other things. So volunteering is very important to us.
For 2012, I sat on the diversity and inclusion board. It was important for us to make sure that a diverse group of people volunteered. I think that it is fair to say that in British sport the average age of volunteers is probably rising. I know that it is the case with athletics officials, because I knew officials who officiated at my very first event when I was 12 who were still officiating, although they had retired from their ordinary job, when I retired at 36. That is fantastic, but we have to find new ways of bringing younger people in.
LOCOG and the Games makers did a lot to show the diversity in volunteering. Games makers still proudly wear their distinct grey and red trainers. If you ask them what they did during the Games, they will talk for 20 minutes about how much being a Games maker changed their life. It is important to remember that.
We may not have expected to see the emergence of mini knitted Games makers—the “knitteds”. That was a huge fad. I have one sitting on my desk. Another thing that emerged was the Games maker choir. People came together and got involved in a really interesting way; volunteering made a difference.
As I say, the reality is that volunteering can be hard and frustrating. Most of my experience of it involves being cold. But you get a huge amount from it. When I was sitting in the Matlock control room—when I say “control room”, I mean “tent”—of a division two kayak slalom two weeks ago, helping to operate a “tutty” start and finish machine, I did not think that it was terribly glamorous. However, none of the children or participants, including my daughter, could kayak unless parents like me got involved. The oldest paddler that I have seen is 73 and she could not take part in these events unless there were volunteers who were willing to act as judges. Sports such as canoeing are very keen to encourage young people to come through and be of part of the volunteering and judging process, which I think is fantastic.
My other experience of volunteering is helping to run water stations in the Great North Run. Last year, 390,016 bottles of water were available for runners taking part in the Great North Run. At the water station where I work, which is located on John Reid Road at the eight-mile mark, we have 45,000 bottles of water. As an athlete who pushed past that water station for 17 years, I did not have a clue what went on with being a volunteer. I did not realise that the volunteers have to take the lid off every single bottle of water that they give out so that people cannot choke. It is an amazing experience to be part of that but it is also a privilege to watch the race go past in a very different way.
One of my interests concerns how disabled people volunteer. It is certainly not easy to gather data on disabled people’s experiences of volunteering. Indeed, many might have a hidden impairment which they may not declare. I would like to explore that aspect a little more in my ongoing work. Although it is slightly off-topic, I should say that volunteering is one way of enabling people to work eventually for sports governing bodies and in local authority sports development. I would be interested to know how many disabled people work for national governing bodies or have an opportunity to use their volunteering as a basis for obtaining paid work in sport. Sport England is doing some fantastic work on measuring disabled people’s participation in this regard. I commend what it is doing but it is also time that we looked at the wider implications of this issue. Whether it is Sport England, UK Sport or other organisations, what influence can the Minister exert to encourage them to push volunteering for disabled people? That is something that I hope to do in my work with Join In.
Looking at other areas where I work, for example the Duke of Edinburgh award, sports leadership is the third most popular volunteering activity after helping children and working in a charity shop. The Duke of Edinburgh organising body leverages thousands of volunteer hours from assessors and supervisors who support young people during their physical section. The reason I got involved with Sports Leaders was because I recognised that not everybody wanted to play sport but they wanted to be involved in sport. That body’s learners have completed 100,000 qualifications and awards in sports leadership in the past year and have completed 420,000 mandatory hours of volunteering. The words “mandatory” and “volunteering” do not always fit well together but it is important to get the qualification to enable them to volunteer in other areas. The body runs 20,000 courses a year and 20% are delivered in centres located in the top most deprived areas of the UK and 47% of the learners are female. That is good because there are lots of issues around women getting involved in volunteering and some sport structures. We can also measure the increase in self-esteem, likelihood to further volunteer, health and well-being, and happiness—all the things that we would want from young people, which is important for me.
In closing, I should like to provide noble Lords with two quotes. One is from a fellow trustee of Join In, Lucy de Groot, who this morning came up with a brilliant way of explaining volunteering. She said that volunteering is a,
“gift of free time, not a free gift”.
We have to look at how we manage, support and promote our volunteers, because we need to keep those people involved not just in sport but in volunteering in the widest possible context. My final quote is from Nelson Mandela who, at the 2000 Laureus World Sports Awards—I am a trustee of its Sport for Good Foundation—said:
“Sport has the power to change the world. It has the power to inspire. It has the power to unite people in a way that little else does. It speaks to youth in a language they understand. Sport can create hope where once there was only despair”.
This is true, whether it be in sports participation or volunteering in sport.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)
My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Allen, for tabling the Question and for giving so much of his time—and for the experience he has gained over the years in business—to this endeavour. I suppose that he is the epitome of the volunteer.
It has been interesting listening to the facts and figures that have been used freely this evening. It is worth reminding ourselves that this is quite a new thing to be able to do. It is ground-breaking and innovative to be able to put some sort of financial value on these matters. We have not been able to do that before. Join In and the people who work with it should be commended.
In 2011, the EU Select Committee of this House carried out an inquiry into whether the new competence in sports matters that came out of the Lisbon treaty could be used to assist grass-roots sports. One of the key recommendations of the report was for better data collection and analysis, and I therefore encourage the Minister to ensure that these data and methodologies are spread across Europe, where there is a real need for a greater understanding. It is a good time to look at grass-roots sport and the role that volunteering plays in its growth and development, but before doing so I declare an interest as chair of the National Volunteering Forum, which under the auspices of the NCVO brings together volunteering organisations from across the country.
One of the many delights of 2012 was the volunteers, who were truly magnificent. We should confess that, for fairly obvious reasons, at the time we did not give enough thought to what was going to happen afterwards. I quickly realised that it would have been a crying shame to have lost not just the enthusiasm but the skills and all the training given to the Games makers in the run-up to the Games. I was really pleased that in my home county of Suffolk we got hold of that opportunity very early. A consortium of organisations, with some funding from the local councils, began a series of legacy projects. We started with a big event to pay tribute to all the Games makers who came from across the county; they individually received recognition for what they had done. The Suffolk Records Office came along and created an archive of oral and written history to keep in perpetuity the recollections of people who had been involved. It was a great evening and there was a lot of buzz. Crucially, the event provided a continuity of contact, and a database was formed of skilled trained volunteers who since then have been called upon to help in major events in the county—some sporting and some cultural. The Suffolk Show, for example, attracts more than 100,000 visitors when it meets in May. Those volunteers are now involved in helping.
It is an obvious but often forgotten point that volunteering generally has to be given in opportunities that come in a wide range of forms, because that is how people live their lives. Not everyone can commit to the same time every week, or even to any regular commitment. The voluntary sector is getting much better at recognising this but there is still a long way to go in creating a breadth of opportunities that are relevant to a much broader range of people.
In a similar vein, we also need to accept that there need to be varied routes into volunteering. There have been some really interesting online schemes, such as Do-It, that are very good at matching volunteers to opportunities, particularly good at working in volume and especially good at young people, who, as far as I can tell, are now surgically attached to their smartphones. Join In has used the technology in a pretty smart way too. What I particularly like about Join In is that it uses celebrity, television, the power of the media, and the private sector to create a strategic buzz, if you can have such a thing.
Then there are organisations such as the volunteer centres, which provide a much more low-key but tailored approach, which is really important for groups of people who are traditionally underrepresented in volunteering. They are very good at finding volunteers for small charities and for areas that are actually not very exciting. The evidence shows that this more bespoke approach is more effective at creating lasting matches between volunteers and organisations.
The conclusion is that there is no magic bullet: we need all sorts of approaches to increase volunteering. What they have in common is that they all have to be resourced. I hope that the incoming Government will consider reintroducing the access to volunteering fund, with the aim of getting more people with disabilities into volunteering roles. With role models such as the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, I am sure that the will is there, but a little extra help is required.
Coming back to the Suffolk sports and volunteering project, I am pleased to say that, two years on, it is still running and has funding for the next two years. It is increasing the number of volunteering opportunities in sport in Suffolk, making them accessible to a wider group of people. On my noble friend Lord Addington’s point, the project is working to encourage best practice in recruitment and management of volunteers, and in project-based work. One of the other new pieces of work it is doing focuses on local businesses to encourage them to give employees time off. Corporate volunteering has been one of the great success stories of the last few years. An increasing number of companies realises that this is not just good for their corporate social responsibility reporting: it makes them more attractive as employers and it can develop new skills in their employees that they might not otherwise have had.
Becoming even more parochial for a moment, I want to mention my local football team. Needham Market Football Club is now secure in the play-off zone for promotion to the Ryman League premier division. It is playing on a par against towns many times its size. It is a remarkable achievement for a little town of 5,000 people. I mention this not just to big up the Marketmen, but because I want to reflect that behind the first team there are reserve teams and youth teams, with even a full-time academy for young players. To keep it all going there is an army of volunteers: match day helpers, people doing the training, ground staff, people running the club house, fundraisers, and, of course, the IT and finance people mentioned by my noble friend Lord Addington. Strong support from local businesses helps to keep the club going through advertising and sponsorship, but of course requires constant work. The point is that almost everyone in Needham Market knows someone involved in the running of the football club. Its contribution to building a sense of community is immense.
One of the most powerful pieces of evidence heard by the 2011 Select Committee, to which I referred, came from Northern Ireland. It described sporting projects that had brought communities together. Other witnesses from inner cities described how sports projects such as StreetGames had a marked effect on reoffending rates when aimed at young, troubled men. Sports volunteering has a double hit: all the well known benefits of active lifestyles with all those of voluntary community action. I have been delighted by the recent emphasis from my party on mental health. I hope that some of the extra funding, when it comes, can be used imaginatively to encourage patients into sport and volunteering activities, which can assist their recovery and continued well-being.
I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Allen, for raising this topic. All sides of the House have raised some really important points in this late stage of the Parliament, but these issues will still be here when we are all back later on.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, first, I congratulate my noble friend on initiating this debate on a subject which makes us all feel proud. We on these Benches are also very proud that my noble friend Lord Allen is one of our own.
The tradition of volunteering is of course deeply ingrained in our society, and I think that often people do not realise that they are volunteering. Quite often, they get involved in the local running, football, netball or tennis club with youngsters because they have children—that is how they begin—and then they find themselves running a junior league. As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, behind those who do the coaching is often a large and unsung, and often unrecognised, band of heroes who do all the administration, the driving, the laundry, the making of sandwiches and so on.
I was reflecting on that when thinking about this subject and I remembered that I learnt to be a canoeing instructor when I was 18 years old. At the same time, I got certificates in life saving so that I was able to take my local woodcraft group, of which I was one of the leaders, on the river and canal in Bradford. When you go round and round in a canoe, you do it very quickly when on the Leeds and Liverpool Canal. I also learnt first aid and mountain rescue, which meant that we could take the same group camping in the hills around Bradford, Haworth and so on. Indeed, when I was about 19 I did a fireman’s lift down a hill with a young lady who had a badly sprained ankle. At the time, I did not know that I was a volunteer but clearly I was, and a very good time I had too.
Today, I met members of the Muslim Women’s Sport Foundation. I am very interested in the work that they do in getting more Muslim women involved in sports and in competing at an elite level. The foundation provides opportunities for participation and training, and it works with similar sports organisations across the UK. I was interested in the work that it does from the point of view of both the DCMS brief and the equalities brief. However, until I had the discussion with the foundation, I had not realised that it receives no public subsidy. It does coaching across the country and it is all done through fundraising and through volunteers. Its work is of social value to our community cohesion, which is a very important part of this debate.
Our own shadow Sports Minister, Clive Efford, has an FA coaching certificate and he has done his own bit of volunteering along the way. People’s love and enjoyment of sport makes it an important issue for public policy because it helps to make us healthy, it brings our communities together, it contributes to the economy and it brings our country together when we back our sports men and women.
Camden, my council in London, runs a huge programme of volunteering in sports, although I do not know how typical that is of other local authorities. It has cycle champions and Zumba champions; it has swimming volunteers for older people who want to go swimming; it has table tennis ambassadors to deliver coaching sessions for children and adults; it runs a volunteer walk leaders scheme and a gymnastics club; and there are many opportunities for training and bursaries to help people to become volunteers in our borough. That must be good value for my council tax and it must add to the value of our community in Camden.
I would like to make a point about the coalition Government and sport. It was a tragedy for those who worked hard in schools to deliver the incredible expansion of sports activities that my Government brought forward through the successful School Sport Partnerships Programme that right at the beginning of this Government it was swept away with no consultation and nothing to replace it. That is why, in terms of sports policy on this side of the House, we are determined to engage as many people as possible at every level in sports and physical activity with the development of grass-roots programmes and sports in our schools.
There is little I can add in praising the effectiveness of the Join In programme. I would like to know whether an assessment is being done about its impact in our most difficult and deprived communities. I agree with the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, on how the programme is developing diversity among our volunteers, particularly among disabled people.
There is no doubt in my mind that sports volunteering has a huge economic and social value. My noble friend has brought to the House an important point: sports volunteering is a huge investment in our community.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)
My Lords, this has been an excellent debate about sport moving forward and volunteering generally. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Allen, and I am pleased to answer this Question for Short Debate. I am delighted that he has brought forward this question about the social and economic value of sport volunteering. The debate went wider, into volunteering in general, and I shall pick up on that at the end of what I shall say. There are some very important lessons that we can learn across the piece and not only about sports volunteering. However, I shall concentrate, first, on the sports aspect.
Grass-roots sport in this country relies on volunteers. Without people prepared to invest their time in local clubs and activities—to coach youngsters, run the line, paint the clubhouse, keep the books, make the tea and perform myriad other duties—grass-roots sport would simply not survive, a point made forcefully by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and my noble friend Lord Addington in particular. This applies both to traditional club-based sport and recent innovations such as parkrun.
The noble Lord, Lord Allen, has a wealth of experience in this area. He knows the value of volunteers in running major events, from his role as chairman of the 2002 Commonwealth Games in Manchester and as a board member of LOCOG, the organising committee for the London 2012 Games.
The 2012 Games helped change the perception of sports volunteering in this country, a point referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Allen, the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and my noble friends Lord Holmes and Lady Scott. People here and abroad, visitors to the Games and television viewers were bowled over by the sight of smiling Games makers, Team London ambassadors and other Games-related volunteers. We all have our own personal memories of those great Games. I visited events in London and Cardiff and I will never forget the warmth of the welcome, the “can do” attitude of the volunteers and the sense of togetherness and national unity that the Games provoked.
Those volunteers showed how volunteering could be valuable, valued and fun. Games maker-style volunteers have since become a fixture at major sporting events in this country, including the Rugby League World Cup in 2013, the Tour de France Grand Depart in Leeds in 2014 and, later this year, the Rugby Union World Cup.
I am delighted that Join In, the independent charity chaired so ably by the noble Lord, has helped to bring some of that Games maker spirit to the world of community sport volunteering, where historically volunteers have not always felt valued—volunteers such as Dean Scopes from Fareham, Ken from Wigan and Sue from Slough, mentioned by the noble Lord. Join In grew out of the London 2012 Games and the Join In team have built up expertise and knowledge, including a formidable database of volunteers and clubs. I agree with my noble friend Lady Scott that we must ensure the database is widely used.
I am pleased to hear that while the funding for Join In has come from the Cabinet Office, with sponsorship from BT and Intersport, it is able to support clubs and volunteers across the United Kingdom. It also receives funding from Sport Wales to provide specific services in Wales. Join In’s work complements that of other agencies, including Sport England and the county sports partnerships, which promote local sport and sport volunteering opportunities. Sport England has recently launched Club Matters. This initiative, built around a new website, provides free guidance, support and learning for volunteers on all aspects of running a club. Through Sport England’s £4 million Sport Makers legacy programme, 48,000 volunteers were trained and delivered 10 or more hours of sport for people in their local community. Since the end of the Sport Makers programme, Sport England has awarded £1 million to county sports partnerships across England to keep sport makers engaged as active volunteers in community sport at very much the local level.
Sport England’s insight has found that to get the best out of volunteers and to encourage people to take up sport, the right volunteers with the right skills are needed in the right places. Volunteers need to receive a valuable and enjoyable volunteering experience that matches their values and reasons for volunteering. Those reasons are overwhelmingly altruistic, a point graphically made by my noble friend Lord Addington, although of course gaining skills, socialising and contributing to the local community are all powerful drivers, and rightly so. Join In’s research leading to its booklet, Hidden Diamonds, which I have had the benefit of reading, uncovers the true value of sport volunteers in a helpful contribution to the debate on the value of sport volunteering. It helps to demonstrate and quantify the massive value of sport volunteers to the volunteers themselves, the sport participants and the wider community. Its estimate of the annual value of sport volunteering specifically is £53 billion, which is a truly staggering figure, although volunteering more broadly, as the noble Lord, Lord Allen, mentioned in his speech, is well into the three-figure billions. I shall come back to the wider issues on volunteering generally.
I agree that the legacy for local communities is a fundamental part of the social legacy of the 2012 Games. According to the Community Life Survey, volunteering increased in 2012 from 65% to 72% of the population after a period of decline, and the increase has been maintained since. We can all take pride in that. The Hidden Diamonds report helps to demonstrate the value of that volunteering in the sports sector. Of course, as the noble Lord said, many people chase the dreams set by our great Olympians, including Chris Hoy, Victoria Pendleton, Mo Farah and many others, along with our great Paralympians, including Sarah Storey and David Weir.
Volunteers are key to increasing participation in sport and physical activity. The Government and the Mayor of London have committed through the Moving More, Living More initiative to working across departments to increase physical activity as part of the legacy of the 2012 Games. I am pleased that Join In’s chief executive, Rebecca Birkbeck, recently gave a presentation to the cross-government officials’ group responsible for driving forward that initiative to promote the important role of volunteers. I agree that any future report published by the Government to promote the legacy benefits of the 2012 Games should include a strong section on the social and volunteering legacy, certainly including the work of Join In.
Perhaps I may turn to some of the specific points made during the course of the debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, mentioned the percentage of disabled people who are volunteering. We have no separate figures for sports, but on volunteering in general a survey shows that 38% of disabled people volunteer as opposed to 46% of the population at large, although that percentage includes disabled people as well. As I say, while we do not have separate figures for sports volunteering, and without being complacent because it is clear that we need to do more, I have to admit that it is a slightly higher figure than I would have anticipated.
I understand that my noble friend Lady Scott got involved in volunteering, and that is what has brought her to the debate. We should be grateful for that and for her contribution outlining the importance of local volunteering in the context of Needham Market. Those points were well made. It is good to hear from people with broad experience of participating in sport. We heard the stories from my noble friend Lord Holmes and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, of how they would not have got involved if there had not been volunteers. This shows the true importance of volunteering, which has a read-across to other sectors.
This debate has been important for two reasons. First, in a sense, it is the worst of times and the best of times for it. It is the worst of times because it is at the end of this Government, but more importantly it will be fresh and will be there for whichever Government come in. We will make sure that it is there for any incoming Government to look at.
That is also true more widely. I would like to ensure that this debate goes to all government departments with a covering letter to talk about the importance of volunteering more generally. While we have been concentrating today on volunteering in sport, there is a very important read-across into volunteering more generally. I undertake that that will happen. Hopefully incoming Ministers of whatever political persuasion will find that on their desks and will be persuaded of what a good thing this is—and it is a good thing, economically and socially. We will all remember the 2012 Games and know that the pride that we took in them, the national unity and the sense of togetherness had little or nothing to do with money and everything to do with capturing and harnessing the importance of volunteering, and making sure that it was effective. We must make sure that that happens not just in relation to sport but more generally.
I end as I began, by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Allen, for bringing this really important topic to us today and for what has been an excellent debate.