Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Tuesday 24th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins]

It is a great pleasure to speak on the amendments proposed by the noble Lords.

On 16 July, we debated the Second Reading of this Bill. It was interesting, in preparing for this debate, to re-read the contributions that were made then and those that have been made by Labour Members in both Houses during its subsequent stages. Though modesty would usually prevent me from quoting extensively from the contribution that I made, it would be strange not to reflect on how widely our critique of the Bill has been adopted by the Government. We said that it had the potential to make a real difference to small businesses but that the steps that it originally proposed were a collection of faint nods in the right direction of key issues that had emerged under this Government. We said that far more robust action would be needed if this Bill was to deliver on the steps small businesses required and to take action on things like abuses of the labour market and their impact on workers in every constituency in the land. On the subject of pubs, we said that a successful small business Bill—a Labour small business Bill—would have introduced a code with a market rent only option, which the Bill now indeed contains. It would be churlish not to recognise that the Government have ultimately acted in good faith on pub company legislation.

I should place it on the record that this is the last piece of legislation that the Minister will be bringing through in this Parliament. As we fast approach the general election, who knows when will be the next time a Liberal Democrat Minister will have the opportunity to bring through a piece of legislation? She has done a good job in reflecting the wishes of the House and has acted in good faith on pub company regulation.

Their lordships’ amendments broadly achieve the objective of striking the devilishly difficult balance between proper protection for pub tenants while not imposing an overly rigid straitjacket on the industry with the potential to discourage future investment. They are positive steps forward that have faithfully built on the spirit of the historic clause 42 proposed by the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). We recognise that some aspects of the proposals will sensibly need to be included in the pubs code through secondary legislation.

There remains the thorny issue of the right of the tenant to offer a substantial investment in their public house in exchange for giving up the right to use the next rent review period as a trigger to request an MRO assessment. The letter dated 16 March from the Minister, Baroness Neville-Rolfe, to the noble Lords Mendelsohn and Stevenson details the Government’s intentions with regard to new clause 43 and specifies that it must not be used to abuse the waiver. However, this will still leave those who fought this cause for many years with considerable unease that this creates the potential for too broad an exemption for too small an investment.

We entirely agree with the Government that encouraging future investment in the stock of public houses is a crucial element in the future success of the industry, but, over four months since the original victory for clause 42, that still leaves a huge unanswered question about the scale of investment that constitutes “substantial”. I think that my party’s record on this issue means that campaigners will have confidence that the statutory code that addresses it under a future Labour Government will be consistent with the approach—

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman mentioned his party’s position on investment. What scale of investment does he believe would constitute “substantial”?

[Toby Perkins]

That is an excellent question. The whole reason this issue is being placed in secondary legislation is that we recognise that there is a very difficult balance to strike. The formula needs to be dependent on the relationship of the investment to the value of the pub. For some pubs, a £30,000 investment might be substantial. For a town centre or city centre pub, a £200,000 investment might not be so substantial. There needs to be some sort of relationship between the rateable value of a pub, the amount that it turns over, and the amount of investment.

The hon. Gentleman is echoing my point, which is that this has been left very open. A great deal of work would need to be done. I assure the House that under a future Labour Government the principles laid out by Baroness Neville-Rolfe are exactly how we would see this. I anticipate that the same would be true of a Liberal Democrat-influenced Administration, although it would be good to hear the Minister clarify that. It would also be good to hear from the Conservative party whether its manifesto will follow the Bill’s principles, or whether it will take a different approach. The industry and campaigners have the right to expect that.

--- Later in debate ---

Notwithstanding that fact, an important step has been taken, and if Baroness King was willing to heap praise on the Government for their athletic U-turn, who am I to stand in the way of recognising that in this area, as on pub companies, the Government may have taken some time to get there, but they have got to the right place in the end?

[Andrew Griffiths]

I draw the House’s attention to my chairmanship of the all-party group on beer, and to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

This has been a contentious and on some occasions ill-tempered debate. That is a great shame, because ultimately we all want the same thing—to achieve a thriving industry. We want British pubs to succeed, to reduce the number of pub closures that have gone on over decades in this country and to stop such closures taking place. We need legislation that will allow the industry to do that.

The Government have obviously listened to the will of the House. I put forward a particular view—I had concerns about the unintended consequence of the Bill—but the House took a different view. The Government have listened to that view, and they have been honourable in how they have proposed changes to the legislation. Nobody who voted on Second Reading can have any concerns about the Government not having done the honourable thing in listening to the will of the House, so I commend them.

We are all looking for the outcome that more pubs thrive, survive and are successful, but I just draw the attention of hon. Members to my concerns about unintended consequences. We have heard the phrase “the beer orders” on many occasions, and we have looked at what Lord Young and the then Government did in relation to legislation on brewers and pubs. The unintended consequence of that legislation was to put the industry in a worse position: it actually led to the creation of the pubcos that so many people now argue against vehemently, and it had a terribly detrimental impact on the industry and on the sustainability and profitability of pubs. I urge the Government, in continuing to develop their legislation, to be aware of the unintended consequences of their actions.

One particular point to which I draw the House’s attention is the issue of investment. This is an industry. Yes, we love our community pubs, which are an important part of our society, and we all appreciate the work they do in our constituencies. However, such pubs have to be viable—profitable and successful—businesses for the people who invest in them. We all recognise that in the modern world, where there is the constant redevelopment and repackaging of the offering in the service industry, be it from Starbucks, Costa Coffee or the local pub, there is a dramatic need for investment. If a pub does not have investment, looks shabby and down-at-heel, does not feel modern and is not well-kept, the public will vote with their feet. They have so many other places to go to. They can enjoy their time at home or go to one of the many coffee shops, restaurants and other premises on the high street.

Investment is essential if we are to develop our pub estate, improve the offering and the customer experience, and encourage more people to use the pub. That is what we have to do. The reality is that people are drinking less and going to pubs less. We have to allow the industry to provide a product that encourages people to leave their homes and visit our pubs. Investment is essential if we are to achieve that.

I therefore urge the Government to look carefully at the secondary legislation that they bring forward. We need the companies that are investing in our pubs to have certainty. Investing in a pub can cost more than £50,000 and in some cases as much as £150,000 or £200,000. If companies are to make that investment, it is essential that they have some certainty about the return on their investment. If we cut off the supply of investment, it will be to the detriment of our pubs and we will see them go backwards. I therefore urge the Government, when they come forward with secondary legislation, to listen to the industry. It needs certainty.