House of Commons
Prayers
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Oral Answers to Questions
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
1. What plans the Government have to change the NHS formula for funding clinical commissioning groups; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)
Allocations to CCGs are the responsibility of NHS England. However, I have been advised that NHS England will rely on advice from the Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation (ACRA) for changes in the CCG formula.
Hugh Bayley
The failure of the Government to use the long-established funding formula for the NHS in dividing the budget between CCGs in north Yorkshire has left us with glaring anomalies, so that in York, the funding is £1,050 per head, but for Scarborough and Ryedale, which is served by the same NHS foundation trust, the funding is £1,234 per head. That is quite unsustainable and will lead to further postcode rationing. The same funding formula must be applied to all CCGs throughout the country. When will that happen?
Mr Hunt
I share the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about the way that NHS funding is allocated to different parts of the country. The allocation in my constituency is about the same as in his constituency, and I have long worried that things like age and rurality are not factored into the final amounts in the way that they need to be. However, in this case NHS England decided that if it was to follow precisely the ACRA recommendations, it would lead to higher growth for areas with better health outcomes and lower growth, or even cuts, for areas with less good outcomes, which it thought would be inconsistent with its responsibility to reduce health inequalities. That is why it is conducting a fundamental review, which it says it hopes will inform the next set of allocations for 2013-14.
John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)
The Secretary of State will be aware that in my area of north Somerset, in Weston-super-Mare, the actual allocations versus the intended amounts of cash which should arrive with us based on the existing formula, are well below what they should be; so even without changing the funding formula, we are still getting dramatically less cash than we should. I urge the Secretary of State to look at that swiftly and see what can be done, within the existing spending envelopes, to make the allocations fairer.
Mr Hunt
As I said, I share my hon. Friend’s concerns about the way funding works at the moment. We are in a very difficult situation because if we were to move closer to the formula proposed by ACRA—I am sure he would agree with me that it is right that it is done independently of Ministers, and in this case it is done under NHS England—it would mean cuts in real terms for the budgets in other areas. Given the pressures overall in the NHS, that was obviously a decision that NHS England was very reluctant to make.
Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)
The last Government matched health funding to health need and reduced the gap in male life expectancy and infant mortality, but this Government have reduced the weighting for health inequalities. The Secretary of State’s public health allocations mean that the areas he has identified today with the biggest health challenges do not get a fair share. The area with longest male life expectancy, Kensington and Chelsea, gets £133 per head, but Liverpool gets £89, Manchester £86, Luton £61, and Slough just £37. If he really wants to do something about health inequalities, should he not match his words with deeds and give more to the areas with the greatest challenges?
Mr Hunt
The right hon. Gentleman really cannot have it both ways. The budget for public health is also decided by an independent body, and we gave everyone a real-terms increase and then used any remaining money to even out the differences, to get everyone as close as possible to the independent formula. But if we are talking about spending, I think the right hon. Gentleman needs to say precisely whether he stands by his assertion that Governments should cut spending on the NHS by £600 million—[Interruption.] He says he has never said it before, but actually, up till now he has always said that it was irresponsible for the Government to increase spending in real terms. We have increased it; we have increased it by £600 million. He needs to come clean on whether he still wants to cut the NHS budget.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
Given that age is the main driver for an individual’s health care needs, why has not age been given more weighting in the funding formula in the past? I urge the Secretary of State to request NHS England to give as much weighting as possible to age in any future funding formula.
Mr Hunt
I recognise that my hon. Friend has campaigned on that issue a great deal, and I have great sympathy, because areas with high age profiles do have much greater needs for the NHS. That obviously must be weighted against things like social deprivation, which also have an impact. It is right for these things to be decided independently, which they are. The question is how we get closest to those independent allocations, and I know that that is preoccupying NHS England at the moment.
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
2. What steps his Department is taking to ensure consistent and continuous provision of pre-natal and post-natal care.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)
The Government are committed to improving continuity of care during pregnancy and the post-natal period. To give women the personalised care that they deserve, we have increased the number of midwives by nearly 1,400 and the number of health visitors by more than 1,000 since May 2010. In addition, there are a record 5,000 midwives in training.
Mr Amess
Will my hon. Friend visit Southend university hospital, and tell residents at first hand what steps the Government are taking to ensure that post-natal care meets clinical guidance and the Government’s aspirations to ensure that the maternity experience is continuous, with patients having one dedicated midwife?
Dr Poulter
I would be delighted to visit my hon. Friend’s constituency. He has been a tremendous advocate for maternity services, both nationally and in his constituency, in his time in the House. As I am sure that he has realised, if we want a genuinely personalised maternity service, we need to ask women about their experiences of care. That is why the Government are introducing a friends and family test in maternity from October this year.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister knows full well that post-natal depression is the thing that is most likely to kill a healthy young woman, and we know how to deal with it, but in many areas across the country we are cutting the number of visits from midwives after births, and the support given. We know how to tackle post-natal depression. Why should it be that in some parts of the country the support is wonderful, and in others, it is non-existent?
Dr Poulter
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to highlight that there has, in the past, sometimes been unacceptable variation in the quality of post-natal care. That is why we are increasing the number of midwives and have done so by nearly 1,400, and why we are putting money and effort into increasing the number of health visitors, who play a vital role in supporting mums, babies and families in securing that important bond, and in supporting mums so that they get the right help when they suffer from post-natal depression.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
3. What plans he has for the future of children’s heart surgery provision in Yorkshire and the Humber.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)
I asked the Independent Reconfiguration Panel to undertake a full review of the “Safe and Sustainable” review of children’s congenital heart services. I have received and am currently considering that advice, and will make my decision known shortly—perhaps very shortly.
Stuart Andrew
I am grateful for that answer. Will my right hon. Friend accept that the Leeds unit has undergone the greatest scrutiny of any of the units included in the review, and has met all the standards required? Will he therefore assure patients, families and staff that both he and NHS England have every confidence in the performance and standards of the Leeds unit? If we are to have informed choices on the future of heart units, surely all units must be subject to the same scrutiny.
Mr Hunt
First, I want to congratulate my hon. Friend on the sustained campaigning that he has done for that children’s heart unit, and on the very responsible way that he has conducted himself in what has been an extremely difficult campaign for the people of Leeds. I have full confidence in children’s heart surgery at Leeds; I know that the Leeds unit does an excellent job. He will understand, as I do, that when there are safety concerns, they have to be investigated, but I am delighted that those issues have been resolved, and that surgery is continuing.
John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) is right that the Leeds unit has been subject to greater scrutiny than any other unit, and the decisions in its case have been more seriously flawed than in the case of any other unit. What guarantee can the Secretary of State give those families across Yorkshire who depend on this major, life-changing surgery that the unit will not simply be removed from our county and put beyond their reach, taking away this vital service for them and their families?
Mr Hunt
The right hon. Gentleman will understand that I cannot prejudge the decision that I will take on reflection, having read the Independent Reconfiguration Panel report, so this morning I cannot give him an answer as to what will happen. However, I can reassure families in Yorkshire, and throughout the country, that where there are safety concerns, we will take them very seriously indeed and investigate them promptly, and where there are difficult reconfiguration debates to be had, we will not duck them, but in all cases, the interests of patients—patient safety and reducing mortality—must be our primary concern.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
18. There seems to have been little reliable evidence for the suspension of services at Leeds, but rather for the safe and sustainable review itself. Will the Secretary of State now do what NHS England has so far refused to do to the Independent Reconfiguration Panel, despite the recommendation of the health and overview scrutiny committee in Yorkshire, and finally publish all the official e-mails between the Joint Committee of Primary Care Trusts and the National Specialised Commissioning Team between 2008 and 2013, so that he can finally learn the truth about the review and what has gone so wrong with it?
Mr Hunt
I know that NHS England is totally committed to transparency and when I make my final decision on the Safe and Sustainable review, we will publish a lot of information. But all the things that he refers to are subject to normal freedom of information processes, and I am sure that he will pursue those.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
4. What his policy is on the introduction of standardised tobacco packaging; and if he will make a statement.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
9. When the Government plan to respond to their consultation on standardised packaging of tobacco products.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry)
The Government have yet to make a decision. We are still considering the lengthy consultation, and in due course we will publish a report on that.
Paul Flynn
We heard on the radio this morning about the poor state of the country on levels of cancer. The Government have an opportunity to reduce those levels by the Bill and by the minimum price for alcohol, but when it comes to the Queen’s Speech, have they again been persuaded by the blandishments of lobbyists, and instead of putting the health of the nation first, have put the needs of big business first?
Anna Soubry
I certainly do not agree with the latter part of that. Just because something was not in the Queen’s Speech does not preclude us from introducing legislation should we take that decision. The hon. Gentleman makes some important points when he talks about the link between mortality and choices about how much alcohol one drinks or whether one chooses to smoke, but we await a decision from the Government.
Gavin Shuker
Many of my constituents, including Cancer Research UK ambassador, Elizabeth Bailey, are asking a simple question: why is it taking the Government so long to respond to this consultation? Is not the truth that they are caught up in interdepartmental squabbles while public health suffers?
Anna Soubry
No, it certainly is not, and I have given my views. The hon. Gentleman will know that like many decisions on public health, these are complicated matters. Most importantly, it is vital that we take the public with us. I have said before that I welcome a debate, and perhaps he and the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) might come to you, Mr Speaker, and ask for a debate in this Chamber or in Westminster Hall. Let us have the debate, because taking the public with us is always important when we make these sorts of difficult and controversial decisions.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that some of the proposed standardised packaging is more colourful than the existing packaging, and given that we have a display ban on cigarettes, what on earth is the point of having standard packaging for something that cannot be displayed?
Anna Soubry
Unfortunately, I do not have enough time to advance all the arguments, but I am more than happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss this with him at length and show him a packet of the said cigarettes from Australia, and he may see the light.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that there is nothing plain about plain packaging? It just shows the reality of gangrene of the foot with graphic images, which is not very attractive to hand round at a party.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
The Minister is aware that smoking is the biggest single cause of health inequality, and she will know that the Labour Government took difficult, complicated and controversial decisions that were successful in driving down smoking from 27% to 20%, saving thousands of lives. Why are this Government stalling? When will they announce a decision? Or is it that the business interests of Lynton Crosby matter more to these Ministers than the health of the nation?
Anna Soubry
I am sure that Mr Crosby would be grateful for that bigging-up. I can assure the hon. Lady that, as she knows, if standardised packaging was as simple as she tries to suggest, no doubt the last Government would have introduced it in some way. I am proud of the fact that we have made sure that the point of sale legislation has been achieved. As she knows and as I have said before, this is a difficult and complex issue. It requires a good and healthy debate. Let us bring on that debate. Perhaps the Opposition would like to use one of their Opposition days to bring it forward. I will be more than happy to take part.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
5. What estimate he has made of the optimal level of bed occupancy in NHS hospitals.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)
Average annual bed occupancy rates for all NHS beds open overnight have remained stable between 84% and 87% since 2000. The Government do not set optimal bed occupancy rates for the NHS. NHS hospitals need to manage their beds effectively in order to cope with peaks in both routine and emergency clinical demand.
Luciana Berger
I listened carefully to what the Minister said, but the Royal College of Physicians has warned that this winter there were more black alerts—when a hospital has no beds available—than there were over the previous 10 years combined. What urgent action are the Government taking to reduce bed occupancy levels and prevent next winter being even worse?
Dr Poulter
We had this debate last week. The long-term pressures on the NHS, as we know, are the result of an aging population, with increasing numbers of older people arriving in A and E with complex needs, so the challenge is to ensure that they are better treated in the community. That is why my hon. Friend the Minister of State launched the integrated care pilots last month. We are also seeing more patients treated as day cases than ever before. About 80% of elective admissions are now treated as day cases, which shows a massive improvement in the speed and quality of care in the NHS.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Kettering general hospital is located in an area that has one of the fastest growing populations in the country and above-average growth in the number of patients aged 80 or over. What more can be done to send the correct signals to local authorities that they need to act quicker to get elderly patients out of hospital once they have been treated so that they can have the care they need in the community, thus freeing up hospital beds?
Dr Poulter
My hon. Friend is absolutely right that local authorities have a key role to play in integrated care. That is why in April this year the Government set up local health and wellbeing boards, which will bring about greater integration of care between the NHS, housing providers and social care locally. That will hopefully ensure that across the country we have a much greater focus on local health care needs and, in particular, on better supporting older people and people with long-term disabilities at home and keeping them out of hospital.
Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)
A moment ago the Minister mentioned more elderly people coming in through A and E, and I want to present the House with new, deeply troubling evidence of that. Nobody wants to think of a very frail elderly person with no other support at home having to come to A and E by ambulance, but that is what increasing numbers of elderly people are having to do. Buried in the general A and E figures is an appalling increase in people aged over 90 coming to A and E by blue-light ambulance, which is up by 66%, equivalent to more than 100,000 of the most vulnerable people in our society. That is an appalling failure and a sign of something seriously wrong in the way we care for older people, and it is set to get worse as home care is cut further this year. Will he investigate that increase urgently and act now to prevent the collapse of social care?
Dr Poulter
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right—there is almost an outbreak of consensus across the Dispatch Boxes on this issue. We both recognise, rightly, that there is a long-term challenge in providing more integrated, joined-up care to better look after older people. However, it is ironic that he should raise that concern, because a previous Minister in the other place, the noble Lord Warner, has made the case very clearly that the previous Government failed to invest adequately in elderly care throughout their time in office. That is why this Government—I hope that we can count on the right hon. Gentleman’s support for this—are investing in health and social care, more integrated services at a local level through health and wellbeing boards and—
Mr Speaker
Order. The answers are too long. They need to get shorter, because we have a lot to get through. It is very simple and very clear.
John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
Given that we have the lowest ratio of intensive care beds in the EU, what are the Government doing to monitor possible risks in future?
Dr Poulter
The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that historically there have been challenges with intensive care beds. We are now seeing increases in some areas of intensive care, particularly paediatric intensive care and paediatric cots, to ensure that there is greater support in that service, but he is absolutely right that we need a greater emphasis on specialist centres focused on intensive care. That is something that the NHS Commissioning Board, NHS England, is focused on delivering. We need to ensure that across each region of the country there is more focused care and more specialist intensive care.
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)
6. What progress he has made on improving cancer waiting times and diagnosis.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry)
Cancer waiting time standards set out a maximum two-month wait from urgent GP referral for suspected cancer, through to diagnosis, to the first definitive treatment. Quarterly performance in the past 12 months has consistently exceeded the performance measure of 85%; indeed, the current data show that 86.3% of patients were treated within this time frame.
Stephen McPartland
I am a firm believer in bringing cancer care closer to people’s homes. My constituents have to travel thousands of miles during the course of their radiotherapy treatments. Will the Minister support my campaign for a satellite radiotherapy unit to be based at Lister hospital in Stevenage?
Anna Soubry
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s campaign, which he has been running for some time, and to all the great work that he does for Lister hospital. I am slightly worried that if I give him any support it might be the kiss of death for his campaign, but I wish him all the very best and all power to his elbow.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
One group of people greatly affected by a cancer diagnosis are the carers who suddenly find themselves to be carers of people with cancer. Yesterday I met some people who are carers of people with cancer, and they told me that they did not get the information, advice and support that they needed to tackle that important caring role. Does the Minister agree that it is about time that we recognised those carers and started to give them the advice and support that they need because they suffer financial loss, hardship, loss of career and impacts on their own health?
Anna Soubry
I very much do agree. That is why I am so pleased that the Care Bill that is making its way through both Houses has special provision for people who are caring for others with cancer in the way that the hon. Lady describes.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Last week Monitor, the regulator for foundation trust hospitals, said that cancer patients are now waiting longer for treatment and diagnosis because of the A and E crisis in hospitals. Official NHS figures published that same day show that the number of patients waiting over three months for cancer, heart disease and other life-saving tests has more than doubled compared with only last year. Is it not obviously the case that this Health Secretary’s failure to cut the spin and get a grip on the A and E crisis is now seriously damaging patient care?
Anna Soubry
That was a very interesting speech but I am afraid that I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s analysis at all. All cancer waiting time standards are being met, with over 28,000 patients being treated for cancer following a GP making an urgent referral for a suspected cancer. We have already heard about the action that this Government are taking to address the situation in accident and emergency; it was very well explained in last week’s debate
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
7. What steps he is taking to increase accountability in the NHS.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)
We have transformed accountability in the health system by setting up Healthwatch and introducing stronger local democratic accountability through health and wellbeing boards.
Gavin Barwell
Croydon PCT’s accounts for 2010-11 showed a £5.5 million surplus; it subsequently turned out to be a £23 million deficit. The former chief executive and two former finance officers have adamantly refused to give evidence to a scrutiny committee set up by councils in south-west London. Does the Secretary of State agree that that is unacceptable and that NHS managers must be held to account, and given that two of these individuals still work in the NHS, does he have the power to compel them to give evidence?
Mr Hunt
Accountability is extremely important. Local authorities can require members or employees of local health service commissioners to appear and answer questions, and NHS organisations and individuals should co-operate with that. I am extremely concerned by what my hon. Friend says. He knows that I have received a report on this from the joint overview and scrutiny committees for six south-west London boroughs, and I will be responding shortly.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State agree that accountability would be improved if the private providers who are increasingly providing NHS services were subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000? Will he ensure that as more and more services become privatised under this Government, those people are subject to the same freedom of information provisions as those in the NHS, because otherwise no committee can hold them to account?
Mr Hunt
Perhaps I could gently remind the hon. Lady that the previous Labour Government did not do this, despite making huge efforts to get more private sector involvement in the NHS. Providers must operate on a level playing field, and so the inspection regime that we are setting up, with a new chief inspector of hospitals, will apply equally to the private sector and the public sector.
Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the introduction of health and wellbeing boards represents a very welcome introduction of democratic accountability into the management of the health and care system? Does he further agree that the acid test of health and wellbeing boards will be their ability to increase the pace of integration between health and care so that the service we deliver is more closely matched to the needs of patients?
Mr Hunt
As is so often the case, my right hon. Friend speaks extremely wisely on this issue. Integrated services will be the big thing that transforms the service we offer vulnerable older people, which the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) mentioned earlier. Health and wellbeing boards will have an extremely important role to play in bringing together local authorities and clinical commissioning groups so that we have joint commissioning of services for those very vulnerable people.
Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)
On accountability, whenever I have asked the Secretary of State how lives might be saved by downgrading Lewisham’s A and E he has cited the medical advice of Sir Bruce Keogh. My colleagues and I have repeatedly sought meetings with Sir Bruce and it is unprecedented in my experience to not receive a response to such a request. Is the Secretary of State satisfied with that? Is Sir Bruce free to meet Lewisham MPs, or has the Secretary of State told him not to?
Mr Hunt
Sir Bruce is free to meet anyone he likes. Actually, he had a meeting with MPs last month, which the right hon. Lady could have attended if she had wanted to do so, and there was extensive engagement with local south-east London MPs before the decision on Lewisham hospital was made.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
8. How many accident and emergency departments he visited in an official capacity in winter 2012-13.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)
I regularly visit a range of services across the NHS. Since taking up post in September 2012, I have visited 28 NHS front-line services, including seven A and E departments.
Tom Blenkinsop
Will the Secretary of State confirm that a freedom of information request to the Department of Health revealed that he did not visit an A and E unit until April 2013, a full six months after his appointment and despite a clear A and E crisis over the winter-spring period under his supervision?
Mr Hunt
As ever, the Labour party is being selective in its use of information. As I have said, I visited seven A and E departments, including over the Easter period when we had some severe A and E pressures that I wanted to investigate for myself. Let me tell the hon. Gentleman about another thing that this Government have done that his Government never did: it is not just Ministers who are going out on to the front line; we have asked all our civil servants to go on to the front line for up to four weeks. I am extremely proud that my Department will be the first to connect with the front line in that way, and am even prouder of the response from my own civil servants, who embraced the scheme with great enthusiasm.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
Could we have some accountability for the strategic planning of A and E services across London? Nine of them face closure and 28 ambulances were redirected to Lewisham, which the Secretary of State intends to downgrade. Without a strategic approach, how can patients be confident that their best interests are being served?
Mr Hunt
We do have a strategic approach, but we also have some very important safeguards that any big change in approach has to go through before it is implemented. That is why I asked for a report from the Independent Reconfiguration Panel on the plans for north-west London, and I will consider that report very carefully before I make any decision.
Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)
When considering issues relating to A and E closures, particularly the proposed closure of the A and E department at St Helier hospital, which serves my constituents, will the Secretary of State ensure that those who propose such plans make sure that there is also a costed plan for developing out-of-hospital care, which is an essential prerequisite for any changes to acute services?
Mr Hunt
I agree with my right hon. Friend on this issue. It is extremely important that all these plans take a holistic view both locally and nationally. That is why, in looking at how to resolve the A and E issues we have faced and the severe pressures last winter, we are looking not just at what happens inside A and E departments, but at primary care alternatives and the integration of social care services, which are all equally important.
Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)
Perhaps it took the Secretary of State so long to visit an A and E unit because he could not get in. In the midst of England’s A and E services experiencing their worst waiting times for a decade, the Secretary of State criticised hospitals for coasting. Does he regret waiting for six months before first visiting an A and E unit and finding out for himself what damage his policies were doing to the front line of the NHS? Hospital consultants, A and E consultants and patients look forward with interest to hearing his answer.
Mr Hunt
We will take no lessons on being connected with the front line from the party that missed 50 warning signs about what was happening at Mid Staffs. The hon. Gentleman cannot make the narrow point about how many A and Es I visited during a particular period without addressing the broad point about how connected Ministers in his party were when they were in power. They rejected 81 requests for a public inquiry because they did not know what was happening at Mid Staffs.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
10. Whether he has any plans to review his policy on resource allocation in the NHS.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)
Allocations to the NHS are the responsibility of NHS England. However, I have been advised that it will rely on the advice of the Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation for changes to the allocations formula.
Andrew George
While many wealthy areas are overfunded, Cornwall is more underfunded than anywhere else in the country. In the past six years, it has received in excess of £200 million less than the Government say it should receive. It also receives the lowest tariff in the country for acute care. Is the Secretary of State prepared to meet me and other representatives from Cornwall to address the serious issues that that is causing in front-line care?
Mr Hunt
My hon. Friend has had meetings with my ministerial colleagues on that issue and knows that such decisions are made at arm’s length from Ministers by NHS England. The allocation for NHS Kernow is £1,235 per head and the average baseline clinical commissioning group allocation is £1,184 per head. However, I recognise that there are issues with rurality and the age profile of the population. That is why a fundamental review is taking place of the approach that ACRA takes.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
In response to a parliamentary question that I tabled, the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), stated that circa £15 million in underspend was handed back to Public Health England by the now dissolved primary care trusts on Merseyside. Given that Liverpool has been identified as having some of the greatest health inequalities, will the Secretary of State guarantee that every penny of that £15 million will be spent in Merseyside alone?
Mr Hunt
What I can guarantee is that there will be a real-terms increase in the public health budget for all local authorities under a two-year settlement, which they did not have before. I hope that the information that was published this morning, which shows how cities that are comparable to Liverpool are managing to get better health outcomes, will help the local authority in Liverpool to improve its results.
Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD)
11. What progress he has made in delivering parity of esteem between mental and physical health.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)
One of NHS England’s objectives is to ensure that mental health and physical health are given equal priority. By March 2015, we expect the NHS to demonstrate measurable progress towards achieving parity of esteem, so that everyone who needs them has timely access to evidence-based services.
Mike Thornton
Freedom of information figures that were obtained by Mind from Southern Health NHS Foundation Trust reveal that in my constituency, the number of people with mental issues who are admitted to hospital, rather than treated by specialist crisis resolution and home treatment services, is higher than average. What steps is the Department taking to ensure that everyone has access to mental health crisis care services that provide alternatives to hospital admission?
Norman Lamb
I applaud the work that Mind is doing to demonstrate the stark differences between the treatment of people with mental health problems who are in crisis and that of people with physical health problems. Its work demonstrates that without proper liaison services, people end up in hospital, at increased cost to the NHS. I have asked all the relevant bodies to get together to agree a plan to ensure that there is urgent crisis care for people with mental health problems, like that experienced by people with physical health problems.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
I am most concerned that as well as the problems at the crisis level, there is not enough support for people with low-level mental health issues so that they do not get into crisis. Although I welcome what the Minister has said about improvements by 2015, does he not agree that we need stronger and more defined targets to get the progress that is needed towards the mental health services that are required across the country?
Norman Lamb
I agree that the more we invest in preventive care, the more we will save problems down the track and stop people’s health deteriorating. Areas that have managed to integrate mental health with primary care have seen good results, with better treatment, quicker access to treatment and less deterioration of health. That is the approach that we need to take.
Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)
12. What progress his Department has made on implementing local commissioning of NHS services.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)
By April 2013, 211 clinical commissioning groups were authorised to commission the majority of NHS services for their local populations. CCGs are now empowered to design and deliver services based on the needs and choices of their patients, and NHS England will support CCGs to deliver high-quality outcomes.
Mr Raab
I thank the Minister for that answer. My constituency struggled under a particularly inefficient primary care trust. It is, of course, early days, as the Minister has explained, but Surrey Downs CCG is already saving costs in bureaucracy so as to invest strategically in cutting counselling waiting lists, increasing funding for children with multiple disabilities, and setting up virtual wards run by a matron to supervise care in the community. Will the Minister join me in welcoming those important GP-led improvements in local care?
Norman Lamb
I applaud the CCG for the priorities it has set. Reducing waiting times for access to psychological therapies is a really good move, and the virtual ward has the potential to keep people out of hospital, maintaining their health better and reducing cost to the NHS.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
Hackney CCG was one of the first to be up and running in shadow form. It is now operational but it is still persisting with a tendering approach to out-of-hours services. Will the Secretary of State write to the CCG to explain what has been said in this House—that tendering is not a requirement—and make it absolutely clear where the law lies?
Norman Lamb
The point I have tried to make all along is that this is about the judgment of the clinical commissioning groups, and nothing is imposed by the Government in what is required of them. European procurement rules existed under the Labour Government and this Government, but it is up to CCGs, working within the health and wellbeing board arrangements, to commission as they see fit for the benefits of their population.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
Despite Witham town’s growing population, our GP ratio remains above the national and regional average. Does the Minister agree that the local commissioning model, and the CCG in particular, would urge GPs to explore ways to expand Witham’s health care provision to meet the needs of the growing local population?
Norman Lamb
I know that my hon. Friend has campaigned vigorously and consistently on this issue and the needs of her local community, and I agree that GPs ought to explore all ways they can of improving health care for her community.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
May I declare my interest, and ask the Minister whether he is satisfied with the progress being made by CCGs in the provision of diabetes prevention work?
Norman Lamb
I understand that all clinical commissioning groups have a lead on diabetes care, but we can do an awful lot more to improve prevention work. We know that if we guide people in self-care, we can achieve massive improvements in their own health and well-being, and reduce the number of crises that occur. I am happy to work with the right hon. Gentleman to ensure we do everything we can to improve diabetes care.
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
13. What recent representations he has received expressing concern about the service provided by the East Midlands Ambulance Service.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)
Over the past year we have received more than 40 letters from MPs in the east midlands, including my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), local authorities and members of the public, about the service provided by the East Midlands Ambulance Service NHS Trust and its being the best programme. My hon. Friend will also be aware that there was an Adjournment on the matter earlier this year.
Chris Heaton-Harris
The Minister will recall that I have raised a number of constituency cases with his Department and the Care Quality Commission about the standard of services provided by EMAS to my constituents, and how it treats its staff. Will he assure me that the Department will continue to monitor EMAS’s performance in the coming months?
Dr Poulter
My hon. Friend can be reassured that the trust development authority and the local chief commissioner for Erewash CCGs are closely monitoring the situation. Today, the Marsh review into the east of England ambulance service has been published, and lessons from that review about how management processes can improve front-line care for patients can be learned and applied across other ambulance services.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
My constituency is also served by EMAS and it is evident that my constituents have cause for concern. Coupled with uncertainty about the future of the Leeds children’s heart unit and higher than average mortality rates in local hospitals, the situation is causing considerable concern. Will the Minister agree to meet me and neighbouring MPs to discuss those problems?
Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
14. What recent assessment he has made of the national cancer drugs fund list.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)
In April 2013, NHS England published a national list of drugs available from the fund. The list was updated recently following a meeting of the national cancer drugs fund clinical panel. Clinicians can apply to the fund for the inclusion of a drug within the approved list.
Pauline Latham
The cancer drugs fund is due to come to an end in less than a year. Given that more than 28,000 patients have received treatment since the CDF was introduced, what discussions has the Minister had with NHS England on continuing funding for it after the end of the current arrangements?
Norman Lamb
My hon. Friend has campaigned vigorously to ensure that as many people as possible get access to the drugs they need. The fund has been a great success. More than 30,000 have I think now benefited from it. We want to do all we can to ensure that the good lessons we have learned from it continue.
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
15. What progress has been made on implementation of the UK five-year antimicrobial resistance strategy.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry)
We will shortly be seeking cross-Government clearance to publish the UK strategy, which addresses the challenges raised in the chief medical officer’s annual report and sets out the priority areas for action, such as slowing down the spread of resistance, maintaining the efficacy of antimicrobials and supporting the development of new antimicrobials.
Zac Goldsmith
In January, the chief medical officer warned that the threat from antibiotic-resistant infections was so serious that it should be added to the Government’s national register of civil emergencies, the national risk register, alongside deadly flu outbreaks or catastrophic terrorist attacks. My hon. Friend is preparing a new cross-Government strategy on antibiotics. Given the growing evidence linking the routine use of antibiotics on intensive farms with antibiotic-resistant infections in humans, can she confirm that the strategy will tackle that reckless practice, regardless of pressure from industry?
Anna Soubry
I could give my hon. Friend a long answer, but in short, the matter will be raised at the next G8 meeting. Further to that, as a result of his excellent debate earlier this year, I undertook to write, and have done so, to my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. He has replied that the Government recognise that we should look at the guidance issued to farmers. I am more than happy to share the Minister’s letter with my hon. Friend.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
16. What the status is of the capital programme for the refurbishment of St Helier Hospital.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry)
I am sorry, Mr Speaker, I am all over the place and do not have now the answer to give the hon. Lady. I believe the programme was signed off in 2010—[Interruption.] In fact, I am right—[Laughter.] Well—[Interruption.] Now, now; that is very naughty from the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham). As you get older, Mr Speaker, you sometimes start to forget things—[Laughter.] Not you, Mr Speaker, of course; you would never do such a thing, and in any event you are much younger than I am.
The Government re-approved the business case for the redevelopment of St Helier hospital in May 2010—I was right—as part of the review the previous Government’s spending commitments. As the hon. Lady knows, because of the various configurations and proposed configurations, no final decision has been made yet. We need to ensure that all the plans come to some sort of fruition.
Siobhain McDonagh
At my age, I share with the Minister a problem with memory loss, but I do not forget the years when we were trying to get the £219 million redevelopment of St Helier hospital agreed, or that the proposal was supported by the Chancellor in his first Budget. The money is now being used as a slush fund by Better Services Better Value, but its idea is to increase the sizes of A and E and maternity units of all the hospitals around while closing those at St Helier. Does the Minister agree that that was not the intention of the money, and that any future development plans must go back to the Department of Health for agreement?
Anna Soubry
I pay tribute to the hon. Lady, who campaigns hard for her hospital, and quite rightly so. I have met my right hon. Friends the Members for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) and for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) and am more than happy to meet her to discuss all the important matters she raises.
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)
There have been two important developments since the previous Health questions. First, in response to pressure on A and E departments, my Department, together with NHS England, has started work on a vulnerable older people’s plan that will act quickly to address the underlying causes of the issues, including services that are not integrated, poor IT systems, confused emergency care offered to the public and poor primary care alternatives.
Secondly, following the tragedy at Mid Staffs, I am delighted to announced that Professor Sir Mike Richards has been appointed as England’s first ever chief inspector of hospitals. He is an inspirational leader who has personally championed huge improvements in cancer survival rates. He will lead the vital work of driving up standards of safety and care throughout NHS hospitals.
Chris Heaton-Harris
I thank the Secretary of State for that statement. Will he give the House an assurance that he will look at GP contracts, with a view to amending them to ensure that better care is given to older patients?
Mr Hunt
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Talk to any A and E department in the country, and they will say that poor alternatives in the primary care sector are one of the things that are driving the pressures on them. It is important that we look at the structures put in place by the 2004 GP contract to see whether they are the right way to provide the care we need to give to older people.
Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)
Last week, the Select Committee on Health took expert evidence on the increased pressures in emergency departments and the causes of the worst A and E crisis in a decade. On Wednesday, the Chair of the Committee told this House that the 2004 GP contract
“is not why those pressures exist.”—[Official Report, 5 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 1605.]
Will the Secretary of State tell us whether the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) is wrong?
Mr Hunt
I advise the hon. Lady to listen more carefully to what the Chair of the Select Committee said. He actually said that he agreed with much of what I said on the GP contract. While the Opposition are defending the status quo of the 2004 contract, independent support for reforming primary care is coming from the College of Emergency Medicine, the Royal College of Physicians, the NHS Alliance, the Family Doctor Association and even the head of the Royal College of General Practitioners.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
T2. In my borough of Southwark we have higher than average smoking rates, and the Cabinet member responsible for health has said that hundreds of people are dying early because they smoke. Can Ministers help me to persuade our Labour council that it is inconsistent to say “Don’t smoke” on the one hand and invest £2.6 million of pension funds in British American Tobacco on the other?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry)
That is a good point, but I have to say that I am not convinced that it is just a Labour-run council that might have chosen to invest their staff pensions in this way; I strongly suspect that all political parties are guilty of this. While this is, of course, a matter for local authorities, it is also the sort of great campaigning work that MPs can do with their local councillors. It is even more important that they do that, given that they now have this great responsibility for public health.
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)
T3. I welcome the leading role that the Department is taking in the formulation of a national strategy for TB. Its importance was reinforced by a recent all-party group report on resistant forms of the disease. One of the key points in the report was the importance of joint working in the development of the strategy, and that it should be public health-led. Does the Minister agree that NHS England also has a crucial role to play in the development of the strategy? Will she ensure that it works closely with Public Health England to develop it?
Anna Soubry
The short answer is yes. I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for the work of his APPG. We had a good meeting in December and I am looking forward to our follow-up meeting tomorrow when we will discuss this matter further.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
T7. Now that public health responsibilities have, as has been discussed, moved to local authorities and Public Health England, can the Government confirm that raising awareness of the signs and symptoms of cancer and early diagnosis, which is of course so important, will be key priorities for those bodies? Will the Minister tell the House how the Government will assess progress?
Anna Soubry
Again, that is a very good point. I completely agree with my hon. Friend and pay tribute to the work of his all-party group on breast cancer. Screening is important. This is also a good opportunity to pay tribute to the Secretary of State’s announcement today of the publication on the website of such outcomes, which will not only drive huge improvement in public health, but, most importantly, ensure that we reduce health inequalities. The previous Government failed to do that; this Government are determined that we will improve them.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
T4. An enormous number of people—largely women—involved in on-street prostitution are caught in a cycle of drug and alcohol abuse, and are working to feed their habit, but at the same time, beyond managing drug dependency, many drug and alcohol services do not offer any practical pathways out of prostitution or even ask whether the client wishes to exit prostitution. Will Ministers look into this issue, consider issuing guidance and write to me?
Anna Soubry
Absolutely yes on all those very important points. The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely important point to which I absolutely subscribe. I have regular meetings on this matter, and I hope that our sexual health strategy addressed exactly those points, but I am more than happy not only to write, but to meet him to discuss the matter further. If I might say, I think that all Members, whatever the party political divide, could do far more both here and locally to reduce the number of women who find themselves working on the streets as prostitutes. I have long taken the view that these are some of the most vulnerable people in our society, and without exception I have never met a prostitute—I used to represent many of them—who has not herself been abused, usually as a child. They are vulnerable people and we should recognise them for that.
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
T8. More than 5,000 schools across the UK now serve good-quality, sustainable meals with the Food for Life catering mark, but only three hospitals have achieved the same. It is often said that hospitals cannot do so because of the cost implications, but the three that have done so not only have incurred no extra costs, but, in the case of Nottingham hospital, have actually saved significant amounts. May I urge my hon. Friend actively to encourage take-up of the Food for Life catering mark as a model of best practice?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)
We will certainly look into the issue that my hon. Friend raises, but he will be aware that there are campaigns throughout the NHS focused on supporting local food producers, which is important in many constituencies, particularly rural ones, and developing best practice and encouraging nutrition. Chefs such as James Martin have been involved in helping to drive up standards of care, particularly in Yorkshire and other parts of the country.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
T5. I listened carefully to the Public Health Minister’s answer just three questions ago, but the Government have disproportionately cut funding to the most deprived local authorities, including Liverpool, and these local authorities have today been shown to have higher mortality rates. How does the Secretary of State expect to close, rather than widen, health inequalities?
Mr Jeremy Hunt
We actually gave a real-terms increase to all areas, including Liverpool, and followed the independent advice. If funding for public health in Liverpool is lower than it should be, that is because the last Government set the baseline way lower than it should have been.
Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)
T9. For the last decade, in the face of constant threats of closure to Heatherwood and Wexham Park, I have campaigned alongside local councillors, activists and residents to try to get the right balance of services across my constituency. The people I work with are very reasonable, as is the Secretary of State, so will he meet me and a small delegation from Windsor to discuss their options?
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
T6. Three Health Ministers have indicated their support, and one even voted for it, so will the Secretary of State either introduce his own legislation or back new clause 17 to the Children and Families Bill to ban smoking in cars with children present?
Anna Soubry
Well, it is a very good point, and the hon. Gentleman knows my own feelings. [Laughter.] No; it is important that we always get the balance right between good public health measures and not getting the accusation from both sides of being a nanny state. [Interruption.] No, no; it is all right his getting agitated, but he knows my view, and I am happy to give him any assistance I can—my door is always open.
Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that any criminal investigation into the 200 to 300 deaths at Mid Staffs should extend not only to front-line staff, who risk getting scapegoated, but to all managerial levels, Department of Health officials and the heart of Government, so that we get answers about who knew what and when, and what action they took or—more importantly—did not take that could have prevented this tragic scandal?
Mr Jeremy Hunt
I congratulate my hon. Friend on her determined campaigning on this issue. She will agree that we must allow the law to follow its course. The police are looking at the five reports on hospital safety that were undertaken, the inquests and the lists of patients who appear to have been treated badly, and they are talking to the relatives of those patients. We must allow them to do their work, but no one is above the law, and particularly in this case it is important that justice be done.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
T10. With the Department of Health having awarded Cleveland fire brigade £198,000 from its social enterprise investment fund, will the Minister confirm, pursuant to concerns raised by the Fire Industry Association, that his Department undertook an assessment as to the compliance with the European state aid regulations of the state’s funding of community interest companies that compete to take business away from the private sector?
Dr Poulter
I would be very happy to look further into the issue and to meet the hon. Gentleman to discuss it.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that children’s heart surgery units such as the one in Leeds now need certainty so that they can continue to attract the highest calibre of staff?
Mr Jeremy Hunt
I agree with my hon. Friend and the sooner we can make a decision and announce it, the better. This issue is of huge importance to the people of Leeds and I want to do all I can to expedite the process.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
When a patient is ill and visits their GP, they will do as the doctor orders. One hundred thousand people will die of lung cancer this year. When will the Government do as the doctor orders and bring in plain packaging for tobacco?
Anna Soubry
I refer my hon. Friend to answers that I have given beforehand. I know the great work that he does on lung cancer and I am pleased to see that, yet again, we will have a national campaign following the great success of the last one. We can talk further.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
This is cervical screening awareness week. What plans does the Minister have further to encourage women aged 60 to 64 to attend cervical screening, given the declining levels of screening uptake and the increasing levels of incidence in this age group?
Anna Soubry
Screening is one of the most important aspects of the work of Public Health England and we are keen to make sure that it is addressed both nationally and locally. Great work can be done by local authorities in making sure that women have this vital screening.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Is the Secretary of State aware of the alcohol treatment centre in the middle of Cardiff, which treats people who are drunk on Friday and Saturday nights and therefore takes pressure off A and E, ambulance services and the police? Will he look at this model, as we are in Swansea, and pilot it elsewhere?
Mr Jeremy Hunt
That is definitely worth looking at and is exactly the kind of proposal that we could think about for NHS England. It could make a very big difference.
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend clarify the position regarding NHS spending, in light of the recent comments from the shadow Health Secretary? My understanding is that spending increased from £99.7 billion in 2009-10 to £106 billion in 2012-13; an increase of £600 million, or 14,000 nurses or 6,000 doctors. Does not this show that the shadow Health Secretary’s reference to cuts is just irresponsible scaremongering?
Mr Hunt
My hon. Friend is right. There has been a £600 million real- terms increase in spending, something that the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) said was irresponsible. He will have to do a U-turn on this, and it will be an embarrassing one. He has talked about cuts in every single debate in the House and it turns out that those cuts never happened.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
Life expectancy in Liverpool is 10 and a half years less than it is in Kensington and Chelsea. Does the Secretary of State think that he has any responsibility to address that?
Mr Hunt
Yes I do, which is why we have published a website today that gives much more detail than there ever has been before about health inequalities. it is why, nationally, the Government have been responsible for a huge amount of initiatives to boost public health, including calorie labelling in restaurants, action on point of sale display tobacco advertising, alcohol unit labelling and a range of other things. We will play our part.
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)
In April, the BBC’s “Casualty” programme highlighted the vital role that health professionals have in spotting young girls at risk of being taken abroad or of having female genital mutilation carried out on them in this country. We are approaching the most difficult time of the year over the long summer holidays, when girls are most at risk. Will Ministers do all they can to draw the attention of health professionals to the vital role that they have in these critical next two months?
Anna Soubry
Absolutely, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend and to other hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber for the great work that they have done on FGM. I am really proud that the Government have produced the FGM passport, which is available to many young women. It does—I hope that it will continue to do so—protect women, especially younger women who are going abroad for this appalling abuse to be carried out upon them. We have done great work already with health professionals who increasingly realise, first, that they must be aware of it; secondly, that they must report it; and thirdly, that they must take action to prevent this appalling abuse of women, especially young women.
Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)
I listened to the answer to Question 7 earlier, but surely the best way to improve accountability in the NHS would be much greater consumer choice and competition when it comes to GP services, for which there are virtually no comparative data at the moment. With modern IT, why can patients not choose to have their own medical records and then ring round to find a GP who will treat them when they want to and not when their own GP deigns to see them?
Mr Jeremy Hunt
What the hon. Gentleman says has a lot of merit. We need to have transportable digital medical records that can be accessed anywhere in the system. That would make better out-of-hours care much more possible than it is at the moment.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am sorry; demand always exceeds supply at Health questions, rather as in the health service, so we must now move on.
GCSEs
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove)
With your permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on the future of examinations.
There is now a widespread consensus, underpinned by today’s authoritative report from the Select Committee on Education, that we need to reform our examination system to restore public confidence. That is why today we are publishing draft details of new GCSE content in core academic subjects. The independent regulator Ofqual is publishing its own consultation on the regulation of reformed GCSEs. We are publishing the draft content in English, mathematics, science, history, geography and modern and ancient languages alongside this statement. We will consult on that content over the next 10 weeks. We expect that these subjects, with the exception of languages, should be ready for first teaching in September 2015, with the first exams being taken in the summer of 2017. Languages and other subjects will follow soon after, with first teaching from September 2016 and the first exams being taken from the summer of 2018.
The new subject content we are publishing today has been drawn up in collaboration with distinguished subject experts, all with expertise and experience in teaching. I would like to thank them for their dedicated work. In line with our changes to the national curriculum, the new specifications are more challenging, more ambitious and more rigorous. That will mean that there should be more extended writing in subjects such as English and history. There should be more testing of advanced problem-solving skills in mathematics and science and more testing of mathematics in science GCSEs, in order to improve progression to A-levels. We should have more challenging mechanics problems in physics, a stronger focus on evolution and genetics in biology and a greater focus on foreign language composition, so that pupils require deeper language skills.
This higher level of demand should equip our children to go on to higher education or a good apprenticeship. We can raise the bar confidently, knowing that we have the best generation of teachers ever in our schools to help students to achieve more than ever before. Our education reforms—the growth in the number of academies and free schools and the improvements in teacher recruitment and training, as well as sharper accountability from improved league tables and a strengthened Ofsted—are raising standards in state schools. That means that new GCSEs will remain universal qualifications—accessible, with good teaching, to the same proportion of pupils as now.
The specifications that we are publishing today also give awarding organisations a clearer indication of our expectations in each subject. Under the previous system, specifications were often too vague. This caused suspicion and speculation that some exam boards were “harder” than others, undermining the credibility of the exam system as a whole. Including more detail in our requirements for subject content should ensure greater consistency and fairness across subjects and between exam boards. By reducing variability in the system, we hope to ensure that all young people leave school with qualifications that are respected by employers, universities and those in further education.
While making GCSE content more rigorous, we must also correct the structural problems with GCSEs that the coalition Government inherited. As today’s report from the Education Committee confirms, the problems with English GCSEs generated last summer proved beyond any doubt that the current system requires reform. Both the Education Committee report and Ofqual recognise that controlled assessment, which counted for 60% of the English GCSE qualification, undermined the reliability of the assessment as a whole. I therefore asked Ofqual to review the regulatory framework for GCSEs to judge how we might limit course work and controlled assessment and to reflect on how we could lift a cap on aspiration by reducing the two-tier structure of some GCSEs. I also asked Ofqual to explore how we might reform our grading structure, the better to reflect the full range of student ability and reward the very best performers.
Ofqual’s consultation sets out how reformed GCSEs can be more rigorous and stretching while encouraging students to develop and demonstrate deep understanding. It is proposed that course work and controlled assessment will largely be replaced by linear, externally marked end-of-course exams. It is proposed that the current two-tier system will end, except where it is absolutely essential: in maths and science. In those subjects, Ofqual is consulting on how to improve the current arrangements to deal with the concerns that we and others have expressed about capping aspiration. Ofqual is also consulting on a new grading system that will give fairer recognition to the whole ability range.
Young people in this country deserve an education system that can compete with the best in the world—a system that sets, and achieves, high expectations. Today’s reforms are essential to achieving that goal. By making GCSEs more demanding, more fulfilling and more stretching, we can give our young people the broad, deep and balanced education that will equip them to win in the global race. I commend this statement to the House.
Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the Secretary of State for giving me advance sight of the statement and the consultation documents.
Here we are again. Last summer, we had “Bring back CSEs and O-levels”: dropped. Then it was the English baccalaureate certificate: dropped. Just last week, it was going to be I-levels, but there is no sign of them today. The Secretary of State is cutting back on resits for students, but he affords himself a fourth attempt at GCSE reform. The problem last summer was that he started with qualifications when he should have started with the curriculum. He was putting the cart before the horse—a grade A lesson in bad policy making.
When we were in government, we raised standards across schools. On the performance measure of five A* to C grades including English and maths, we went from 35% in 1997 to 59% in 2010. Let me give the House a quote:
“Schools got better over the course of the last 15 years.”
Those are not my words but those of the Secretary of State a year ago. The improvements were the result of a laser focus on literacy and numeracy, better teaching and better schools.
Parents are worried that, by allowing unqualified teachers into classrooms, this Government are damaging education standards. They want to know that the changes to the curriculum and qualifications will help to equip their children for the jobs of the future. Let me set three tests for the changes. First, will they strengthen rigour and raise standards, by introducing the rigour of the future that rejects a choice between knowledge and skills? We need both. Secondly, are the changes driven by the evidence of what actually works, here and elsewhere? Thirdly, will they command consensus and stand the test of time?
On the curriculum changes, we will study the detail of today’s proposals. We want to strike the right balance between setting out entitlements to high-quality education and freedoms for schools and teachers to innovate. What is the Secretary of State’s evaluation of how academies have used their freedoms, and of the implications of that for the future national curriculum? When will he bring forward plans for other subjects that are not covered by today’s announcement? In particular, what about the young people who want to study high-quality technical and practical subjects? For too long, they have been the forgotten 50%, yet there is no reference to them in today’s statement.
We support the reform of controlled assessment, but we do not support its wholesale abandonment across almost all subjects.
“Moving towards linear assessment will reduce the reliability of GCSE. Less coursework means less assessment time which leads inevitably to lower reliability—this is about as cast iron a rule in assessment as there is”.
Those are not my words; they are the words of Prof Dylan Wiliam, one of the distinguished experts to whom the Secretary of State referred in his statement.
What body of evidence supports this wholesale switch on controlled assessment? The Secretary of State has previously expressed doubts about tiering. I welcome the principles Ofqual has set out today. Has he changed his mind on tiering in maths and science?
On grading, I accept that there is a good case for more differentiation at the top end, but I am concerned about consolidation at the other end. Surely it is vital that there is challenge and stretch for all students across the ability range? There is a strong argument for moving to what Ofqual has described as scaled scoring, giving students the actual percentage mark subject by subject. I know Ofqual feels we are not ready for that yet, but does the Secretary of State share my aspiration to move towards such a system in the future?
In conclusion, there is a clear lesson from this past year: this is no way to conduct system reform. Future change should be informed by the evidence and should properly engage with professionals. If we do that, I think we really can achieve lasting and successful reform.
Michael Gove
May I, first, thank the hon. Gentleman for his witty and discursive response? Picking through the thickets of the comments he made, I think there was a broad welcome for the direction of travel we have set out today, and in our efforts to achieve consensus across the House—which has always been my aim—I am grateful for that.
May I also thank the hon. Gentleman for his acceptance that Ofqual is right to recognise the case for tiering in mathematics and science? He asked what my view is: my view has always been that we should, wherever possible, seek to remove any cap on aspiration, but we have listened to the experts, and they conclude in this case that tiering in maths and science is appropriate.
The hon. Gentleman also asked whether I believe, as some do, that we should move from not just an alphabetical to a numerical skill, but to scaled scores. The consultation provides an opportunity for those who believe that that is appropriate to make their case. Ofqual will make a judgment, and I will listen closely to what it says, but I think the need to change the way in which we award grades reflects the improvement in teaching, to which he alluded and which I entirely endorse.
The hon. Gentleman asked about technical and practical subjects. As I have confirmed before, technical and practical subjects are our highest priority in the Department for Education, which is why our reforms started with vocational qualifications and the publication of the Wolf report. I recently wrote to the hon. Gentleman to ask him if he still stood by his endorsement of the Wolf report. I still await a reply, but I know he is a busy man and I shall wait patiently to hear what he has to say.
The final thing I should say is that the hon. Gentleman asks for evidence for the case for change, and all I need do is commend to him the superb work done by the Select Committee in its report today, which points out that it was the introduction of changes by the last Government that fundamentally destabilised GCSEs. The hon. Gentleman himself has acknowledged that there was grade inflation on Labour’s watch. Let us be clear: yes, there were improvements, thanks to changes in our education system and a higher quality of teaching than ever before, but they were put in doubt by Ministers’ failure to ensure that the gold standard was adequately protected. We are, at last, protecting the standards on which all our children depend.
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)
Instead of all this perpetual messing about with the education or examination system, would it not be better and simpler to return to the arrangements of my distant youth, in which in order to matriculate—that magic but now disappeared word—pupils had, as the Secretary of State knows very well, to get six credits at school certificate level, one of which had to be in mathematics and one in a foreign language? If they got those six credits, they went on to the higher certificate, and if they could get two distinctions in higher certificate they automatically got a state scholarship and a guaranteed free university education. Everybody understood it, it worked very well, so why do we not go back to it?
Michael Gove
First, may I say to my right hon. Friend that his youth is not that distant? He is still in the prime of life and the full vigour of all his abilities, and the system he has outlined, with credits for a broad range of subjects, is very similar to the English baccalaureate measure we have introduced. I did not know that, in introducing the English baccalaureate, I owed so much to my right hon. Friend, but I am happy to say that the virtues of the education system that existed in his youth have been reinstated. However, impressive as the education he enjoyed was, we also need to move with the times, and we are making a number of changes that better reflect the competitive nature of the 21st century.
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
Taken together, the three new reports announced today are not as bad as some of us may have feared. May I put it to the Secretary of State, however, that employers and post-16 providers want young people who have learnt how to learn, have been able to demonstrate that they are able to work in teams and are able to speak English as well as to write it? My experience through night school was that the old O-levels, with the final exams, were easy for those of us at the time who had a good memory. What we surely need to be moving to in the continuing consultation is removing the worst of the past and the over-emphasis on a modular approach and assessment, while not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Will he continue to listen?
Michael Gove
I am very grateful to be praised with faint damns by the right hon. Gentleman, and I entirely agree with him; it is important that speaking and listening sits alongside the composition, written and analytical skills in English language. That is what we propose to do, by ensuring that speaking and listening, which is inherently more difficult to assess, in what is a benchmark qualification, is assessed alongside the written component of English. I always look forward to hearing from the right hon. Gentleman, who is far, far more often right than wrong.
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
May I thank hon. Members from all parts of the House for their kind words and support since my accident?
I congratulate the Secretary of State on today’s statement. We have the broad outlines of the right policy and, unlike the shadow Secretary of State, I think that a Secretary of State who puts forward ideas, listens to the response and changes a Government policy as a result is making policy in the right way. However, may I put it to the Secretary of State that this has a tight timetable, so will he assure the House, parents and teachers that he will always ensure that getting it right is more important than sticking to the timetable he has set out?
Michael Gove
I thank my hon. Friend for his generous words and may I say how good it is to see him back in his place in the House? May I also thank him for the fantastic work that his Committee has done in its report on what happened to GCSEs last summer, which is published today? I entirely take on board his endorsement of the Department for Education’s Hegelian approach to policy making of thesis, antithesis and then synthesis. We will make sure that the timetable is kept under review. We have already extended the timetable for A-level implementation to take account of precisely the concerns he has so wisely articulated.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
The Secretary of State deserves an A* for his ability to cherry-pick the parts of the Education Committee report he agrees with while ignoring those parts he disagrees with. On grading, we all agree that there are good reasons for more differentiation at the top end, but surely it is not the top end that is our problem. So what in today’s proposals will support and challenge those 50% of children at the bottom end?
Michael Gove
It is a very fair challenge from the hon. Lady, who has devoted a great deal of time in this House to reminding us how important it is that we tackle that tale of underachievement. We want to consult on exactly how the grading system can fairly reflect the full range of ability, but we also need to ensure that students who sit these examinations are supported long before they come to sit a GCSE so that they are able to achieve more effectively. We are making a series of interventions, ranging from the introduction of the pupil premium and the extension of 15 hours of free pre-school education to the poorest two-years-olds to the endowment from the Education Endowment Foundation fund to support research into how we can support the poorest students, which were intended to deal with precisely those children who are the strongest concern of both of us.
Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement that we are committed to one qualification, open to all, and to looking at how we can raise aspiration for all students. If the evidence from the consultation shows overwhelming support for some element of coursework in arts and humanities, as well as in the practical subjects, will he retain an open mind on it?
Michael Gove
First, I thank my hon. Friend for all the work he has done throughout this process to ensure that it better reflects the needs of teachers, for whom he speaks so effectively. I have a real concern that coursework or controlled assessment in benchmark qualifications such as English and mathematics creates problems, but I listened to Ofqual when it argued that there should be an element of coursework to test bench skills—practical skills—in science, and I remain open to all arguments. I have a strong disposition, but it is not incapable of being swayed by strong evidence.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will appreciate that I cannot speak about the detailed implementation of his reforms, but does he agree that an emphasis on rigorous qualifications and on obtaining core academic subjects is not, as is sometimes argued, contrary to the interests of working-class children and of black and minority ethnic children? On the contrary, precisely if someone is the first in their family to stay on past school leaving age, precisely if someone’s family does not social capital and precisely if someone does not have parents who can put in a word for them in a difficult job market, they need the assurance of rigorous qualifications and, if at all possible, core academic qualifications.
Michael Gove
I am in love! The hon. Lady is absolutely right, and if I had been a member of the Labour party I would have voted for her to be leader.
Mr Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his statement and, in particular, the reforms to ensure that essay writing skills are tested in English and history GCSEs, and the reforms that ensure a deeper understanding of and facility with mathematical processes and formulae in the maths and science exams, with less predictable and more demanding questions. Will he assure me that the exam boards, chastened as they are by universal criticisms of their failure on the stewardship of grade values, will not allow grade inflation to creep into these newly reformed GCSEs?
Michael Gove
I thank my hon. Friend and pay tribute to him for the fantastic work he did in office to lay the foundations for some of the changes we are announcing today. I do think that the exam boards are chastened and that their current leadership recognise that the credibility of the qualifications they offer depends on their policing standards with even greater rigour than ever before.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State will know that rigour and reliability are quite elusive, that many Governments have tried to combine those two and that it is difficult to do so. May I welcome today’s report and what he said to the House, and the fact that this is going to be subject to consultation? However, may I say to him that sometimes he should learn the lesson that I learnt during 10 years as the Chair of the Select Committee, which is that you have to carry people with you—you have to carry parents, students, teachers and the broader community with you—and that he sometimes falls into the trap of being more in favour of disruptive innovation than building a consensus for change, which he really will need?
Michael Gove
Those are very generous words from an experienced politician that I shall take to heart.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
What are the Government doing to ensure that a putative future Labour Government will not falsely inflate the grades of schoolchildren, as Labour has done before?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. We cannot guarantee that a future Government, of whatever political colour, will not be tempted to try to flatter itself by bringing in a little grade inflation. We have in Ofqual and in its current regulator a strong leader determined to ensure that that will not happen. It is a pity that we do not have the same robust system of regulation in Wales, for example.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
The CBI has said that we need to produce “rounded and grounded” young people, but I understand that these plans will not assess those important competences, which business require. Why is the Secretary of State not listening to business organisations?
Michael Gove
I very much enjoy listening to business organisations, even those such as the CBI that have historically perhaps been wrong on big issues—for example, the euro. Nevertheless, there is a lot that the CBI has said about education that I do commend, and I think that the introduction of a greater degree of rigour in English language writing skills and a higher level of demand in mathematics meet exactly the request from all sorts of businesses to ensure that there is higher attainment among the students they wish to recruit.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that as a majority of people believe that GCSEs have become easier in recent years, these substantial reforms are essential to restore the confidence of employers and further education establishments in the GCSE system?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I know he is committed to education—we first met in a school in his constituency—and I know he absolutely believes that we need to restore confidence in these examinations. The only people who are let down if there is not public confidence in these examinations are young people, and he is absolutely right to point out that confidence has been eroded over time.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
It is vital that the GCSE brand is consistent, and is respected, across the United Kingdom. Will the Secretary of State therefore tell the House what consultations he has had, or will have, with the devolved Administrations, including the Northern Ireland Assembly? Will he ensure that agreement and consensus can be reached, so that GCSE qualifications will not be compromised in any region of the United Kingdom?
Michael Gove
The hon. Gentleman—my hon. Friend—will know that I am absolutely committed to the unity of this kingdom and I want to do everything possible to ensure that Ulster remains British. That is why it is important that we say to people in Northern Ireland, and in particular to Northern Ireland’s current Education Minister and the devolved Administration, that the changes that he might make to GCSEs have attracted the attention of the regulator, Ofqual, here. I do want to work with him and the many superb teachers in Northern Ireland to ensure that there can be as close as possible an alignment between our education systems.
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that our children deserve the best education we can give them, and that they get only one chance of that? Does he also agree that the extensive use of coursework has masked the true picture of some of our pupils’ abilities?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There are some subject areas—art and design, design and technology—where it is important to show practical skills through coursework, but there are other areas, particularly English and mathematics—particularly English—where, unfortunately, coursework and controlled assessment have not reinforced the rigour that we all want.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
Following on from that last comment, why does the Secretary of State not believe that properly assessed and moderated coursework demonstrates a depth of understanding of a subject that simply learning facts to be churned out at an exam does not?
Michael Gove
The hon. Lady misunderstands the fact that at the moment, as the Select Committee report points out today, coursework and controlled assessment can lead to over-marking and inconsistency. It is also the case that the modularisation of GCSEs, which occurred under a Labour Government, led to precisely the sort of cram-and-forget style of learning that I think neither of us approves of.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
I warmly welcome today’s announcement. What representations has the Secretary of State had from employers’ organisations showing that they feel these changes are likely to add to the economic competitiveness of this country and make it easier for them to select credible candidates for employment?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend makes a good point. The CBI has pointed out that the number of employers who are dissatisfied with school and college leavers’ basic skills remains stuck at around a third; the Institute of Directors has said that the value of GCSEs has declined; and the Federation of Small Businesses has said that eight in 10 small businesses do not believe that school leavers are ready for work. Business recognises that we need rigour, and that is why business supports the coalition Government.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
Teachers—even head teachers—who are responsible for delivering the Secretary of State’s curriculum have expressed little confidence in him on the nature and timing of his changes. When will he really listen to the professionals in schools who actually teach and plan and know what they are talking about?
Michael Gove
It is an unfortunate myth that the profession is united. There is a range of views within the teaching profession and among head teachers. What is striking is that an overwhelming number of those who lead outstanding schools and are developing outstanding practice support the drive for higher aspirations that this coalition Government are leading.
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)
Education is the best opportunity for poorer children to change their life chances. Does the Secretary of State agree that we need an exam system that employers and teachers have confidence in, to help those poorer pupils achieve in life?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Few people know more about the chalk face than he does, given that his partner is a primary school teacher. He is absolutely right that we need to change our examination system, to restore confidence that has unfortunately been dented.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
The Secretary of State’s entire statement is about the importance of qualifications, and I am sure parents will appreciate that, but can he give parents an assurance that no unqualified teachers will be teaching these GCSE courses?
Michael Gove
One thing I can say is that teachers are better qualified than ever, and the new head of the Teaching Agency and the national college, Charlie Taylor, has been responsible for changes that ensure that we have more highly qualified young people, teaching to a higher standard than ever before.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I declare an interest: my daughter is a teacher in a state school.
Does the Secretary of State agree that he is in danger of winning over teachers, winning over the Opposition and doing a very good job? Is that the way we should be proceeding?
Michael Gove
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He is absolutely right: sometimes we need to be divisive and pugnacious, but today I am glad that consensus on a number of issues appears to exist across both Front Benches.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Secretary of State accept that his proposals will blight the value of the qualifications of those taking examinations in the next four years and break the union of qualification currency between England and Wales? Should he not have tried harder to get a compromise, instead of simply leaking the contents of his meetings with the Welsh Government to the press?
Michael Gove
Into every life a little rain must fall. May I say to the hon. Gentleman that the fault lies, I fear, with those who have not been as anxious to preserve the rigour in the examination system as our regulator, Ofqual. I will say no more.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
I welcome the removal of grade inflation—we owe it to our young people to have a value system that everyone recognises. However, as someone of Welsh heritage, who got all my qualifications in Wales, I am very concerned that certain qualifications will now have greater merit than others, which will disadvantage poorer communities, and some employers will not understand the two sorts of qualifications that may come about.
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend puts her finger on a really important issue. One thing that I am anxious to do is to secure, with the help of the regulator, a proper understanding that can help us to encourage those responsible for qualifications in Wales to recognise which changes are appropriate and which are not.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
As the Secretary of State knows, we have some of the best secondary schools in the country in Hackney, where rigour is very important. As the Secretary of State’s approach to education policy seems to be that it is in one day, out the next—he is playing hokey cokey—can he assure head teachers, parents and pupils in my area and around the country that there will not be a lot more changes down the path?
Michael Gove
A clear direction of travel has, I hope, been set today and we will of course consult and listen, but the hon. Lady is absolutely right. In Hackney, a high level of ambition has been embedded for years, and I know there are head teachers and teachers in Hackney who welcome the direction we have set today.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
I declare an interest, in that my wife is a teacher. The Secretary of State has already referred to the opinion of the Federation of Small Businesses that eight in 10 of its members thought that school leavers were not ready for work. How will these reforms address that problem?
Michael Gove
Small businesses, like all businesses, want to ensure that students have the English language skills necessary to communicate with confidence in a business setting and the arithmetical and mathematical skills necessary to compete effectively in the 21st century. I believe that the changes we are making to English and maths—the benchmark qualifications—will meet the needs of business.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Would that every young person who had failed their resits on three occasions was able to claim that they were merely engaged in a process of Hegelian dialectic with the examining authorities, although I would prefer a more Socratic dialogue, such as has been engaged in in Wales. It is a real shame that the Secretary of State has set himself against coming to a common position across the whole of the United Kingdom. What I really do not understand for the life of me is why he thinks that learning vast quantities of “The Wreck of the Hesperus” or “The boy stood on the burning deck” or “If” will make young people better equipped for the work environment.
Michael Gove
There are two things that I would say. First, I am always anxious to reach consensus with colleagues in Wales, but it takes two to make a consensus. [Interruption.] At least two. The second thing that I would say is that when it comes to learning English, yes it is important to have the utilitarian skills that business demands, but it is also important that children from every background are given a chance to appreciate beauty—the best that has been thought and written. I know that the hon. Gentleman appreciates beauty in many spheres of human endeavour—
Michael Gove
And he is quoting Keats now. All I would say is that he is not the only person who has an interest in poetry. I was delighted when John Cooper Clarke, one of my favourite poets, said only last week that our approach to the teaching of poetry was absolutely right.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
What discussions has my right hon. Friend had, or does he intend to have, with the Welsh Government on the issue? It is crucial that we retain the integrity and credibility of Welsh pupils in the eyes of employers and universities across the United Kingdom. Has he considered suggesting to the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) that she go to the Welsh Assembly to speak to her political colleagues about a positive way forward?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I respect the devolution settlement, and it means, of course, that the Education Minister in Wales can make the appropriate decisions which he considers to be right for Wales, but I want to ensure that we can work together in future to bolster confidence in all the examinations that young people take. I have already had a meeting with the Welsh Education Minister, which was frank and cordial; I hope that we can have further such meetings.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Further to the question by my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), the timetable is tight, and discussions and interaction with the devolved Administrations are vital. We should be ever mindful that they also have a legislative process to go through. What steps will the Secretary of State take to ensure that the timetable is not too rigid, so that delivery in all parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland can be achieved?
Michael Gove
That is a very good point, and we will work with the devolved Administration in Northern Ireland, and with Westminster representatives like the hon. Gentleman, who takes a close interest in these matters, to make sure, if we can, that there is proper alignment.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
I thank the Secretary of State for his announcement, which is a huge step, putting more rigour and higher standards in academic subjects. May I press him on when we can expect the draft curriculum programme of study for design and technology, and in which year he expects that to be taught?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When we put forward draft programmes of study for different curriculum areas, some of them attracted more controversy than others. It is fair to say that design and technology was one of the most controversial. We have listened to some of the critics, and a new draft will be forthcoming in a few weeks’ time.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
I pay tribute to the Secretary of State, who is responding to the demands of employers and higher and further education providers, and to the needs of pupils, by reintroducing rigour to the exam system. Does he share my concern that pupils in Wales, who may want to seek employment opportunities across the UK and beyond, could be disadvantaged if the Welsh Government refuse to follow this reform? Will he agree to make the qualification available, irrespective of the Welsh Government’s judgment, to those schools that want to pursue this new rigorous GCSE?
Michael Gove
Absolutely—this qualification should be available to all state schools that have high aspirations for their students. Next Monday, I look forward to meeting Andrew R.T. Davies, the gifted gentleman who leads for the Conservatives in the Welsh Assembly. I will also talk to Welsh Conservative MPs, of whom there are a growing number, to see how we can take this forward effectively.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
As a member of the Education Committee, I welcome the Secretary of State’s positive use of our report in today’s statement, because it was a well-researched, considered report. I also welcome his appreciation of the role of Ofqual, but does it include making sure that teachers are not teaching to the exam rather than to the subject as a whole?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. One of the problems with the way that modularisation occurred was that it led to too much teaching to the test, and insufficient deep understanding. I hope that our reforms will address that.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
My constituents in Northumberland will welcome this effort to raise standards across the board, although my local schools already produce outstanding results, despite very low per capita funding. Will the Secretary of State meet a delegation of head teachers of my high schools at some stage this summer in Westminster, to discuss both this consultation and the proposed transitional funding arrangements?
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
The English language, used right around the world, is perhaps the greatest export from these islands, but one of the knock-on effects is that, despite the best efforts of colleges with specialist language expertise, such as the Montsaye academy trust in Rothwell in my constituency, as a nation we do not teach modern languages as successfully as we might. Against that background, why will modern languages be in the second wave of these reforms, not the first?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. It is simply that there are some quite difficult issues to deal with when it comes to finding exactly the right way to ensure that speaking and listening skills, in particular, are properly assessed, but I absolutely agree with him that we need to do more to encourage the take-up of languages. Unfortunately, it dipped under Labour; it is now increasing, thanks to the changes that we have made with the English baccalaureate measure.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
Businesses that I have met in my constituency have told me of their concern about the level of literacy and numeracy among some school leavers, yet pupils can only sit the exams that are in front of them, and teachers are surely right to teach to those exams. Does that not show that the current system is not operating fully for everybody, and that the Government are right to focus on it, and fix it?
Mr Speaker
I am extremely grateful to the Secretary of State and colleagues.
Point of Order
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am worried about the Secretary of State for Education. Not only has he fallen in love with my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) this afternoon, but, more importantly, even though he met the Minister for Education and Skills in Wales only recently, he seemed to refer to him as a “she”. I should clarify for the House that he is Leighton Andrews, not Julie Andrews.
Mr Speaker
I am not sure that is a point of order, but for the benefit of the hon. Gentleman and the House, I will say that I could have told the Secretary of State that myself. Leighton Andrews is well known to me; he was my boss 25 years ago.
Children and Families Bill
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
18:00 - The House divided: - Ayes: 222 / Noes: 303 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:16 - The House divided: - Ayes: 219 / Noes: 303 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Mr Edward Timpson)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 8—Support for children with specified health conditions—
‘(1) The governing body of a mainstream school has a duty to produce and implement a medical conditions policy that defines how it plans to support the needs of children with specified health conditions.
(2) The medical conditions policy must include provision about—
(a) the means by which records of the specified health conditions of children at the school are to be recorded and maintained; and
(b) the preparation of an individual healthcare plan for each child with a specified health condition which sets out the needs of that child arising from that condition.
(3) The medical conditions policy must include requirements relating to the provision of appropriate training for school staff to support the implementation of individual healthcare plans.
(4) In preparing an individual healthcare plan the governing body must—
(a) consult the parent of the child concerned and, where appropriate, the child about the contents of the plan; and
(b) there shall be a duty on NHS bodies to co-operate with the governing body in its preparation and implementation of individual healthcare plans.
(5) Local authorities and clinical commissioning groups must co-operate with governing bodies in fulfilling their functions under this Act.
(6) The Secretary of State may by regulations define “specified health conditions” for the purposes of this section.
(7) For the purposes of this section “NHS bodies” has the same meaning as in the Health and Social Care Act 2012.’.
New clause 21—Inclusive and accessible education, health and social care provision—
‘(1) In exercising a function under Part 3, a local authority and NHS bodies in England must promote and secure inclusive and accessible education, health and social care provision to support children, young people and their families.
(2) Regulations will set out requirements on an authority and its partner NHS commissioning bodies to promote and secure inclusive and accessible education, health and social care provision in its local area, in particular through—
(a) the planning;
(b) the design;
(c) the commissioning or funding;
(d) the delivery; and
(e) the evaluation of such services.’.
New clause 24—Publication of information relating to Special Educational Needs tribunal cases—
‘(1) The Secretary of State must collect information on all cases related to special educational needs which are considered by the Tribunal Service, including—
(a) the local authority involved;
(b) the cost to the Tribunal Service;
(c) the amount spent by the local authority on fighting each case;
(d) the nature of each case; and
(e) the outcome of each case.
(2) The Secretary of State must collate and publish information collected in the exercise of his functions under subsection (1) once a year.
(3) The following bodies must make arrangements to provide such information to the Secretary of State as is necessary to enable him to perform his functions under this section—
(a) the Tribunal Service;
(b) local authorities.’.
Amendment 59, in clause 19, page 18, line 22, at end add—
‘(e) the right of the parent to make their own arrangements for some or all of the special educational provision under section 7 of the Education Act 1996.’.
Amendment 39, in clause 21, page 19, line 16, leave out ‘wholly or mainly’.
Amendment 60, in clause 23, page 19, line 29, leave out ‘may have’ and insert ‘probably has’.
Amendment 61, page 19, line 32, leave out ‘may have’ and insert ‘probably has’.
Amendment 46, in clause 27, page 22, line 3, at end insert—
‘(2A) If the education and care provision provided as part of the local offer is deemed insufficient to meet the needs of children and young people under subsection (2), a local authority must—
(a) publish these findings;
(b) improve that provision until it is deemed sufficient by—
(i) those consulted under subsection (3); and
(ii) Ofsted.’.
Amendment 62, in clause 28, page 23, line 29, at end insert ‘;
(n) Parent Carer Forums.’.
Amendment 66, in clause 30, page 24, line 21, leave out ‘it expects to be’ and insert ‘which is’.
Amendment 67, page 24, line 24, leave out ‘it expects to be’ and insert ‘which is’.
Amendment 30, page 24, line 34, at end insert—
‘(f) arrangements to assist young people and parents in managing a personal budget should they choose one.’.
Amendment 68, page 24, line 39, at end insert ‘, including in online communities.’.
Amendment 69, page 25, line 7, at end insert—
‘(7A) The Secretary of State shall lay a draft of regulations setting out the minimum level of specific special educational provision, health care provision and social care provision that local authorities must provide as part of their local offer, and the regulations are not to be made unless they have been approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
(7B) Once regulations under subsection (7A) have been made, the Secretary of State must—
(a) issued guidance to local authorities on how to meet these regulations, and
(b) publish information on these regulations accessible to the families of children and young people with special educational needs on the Department’s website, and in any other way he sees fit.’.
Amendment 65, in clause 36, page 28, line 21, at end insert—
‘(1A) A person acting on behalf of a school or a post-16 institution (“A”) must request an EHC needs assessment for a child or young person (“B”) as soon as A becomes aware that B has been diagnosed with epilepsy or a related condition.’.
Amendment 40, page 29, line 20, leave out subsection (10).
Amendment 44, in clause 37, page 30, line 8, leave out from ‘provision’ to end of line 10 and insert
‘required by the child or young person.’.
Amendment 41, page 30, line 13, leave out subsection (4).
Amendment 45, in clause 38, page 30, line 35, at end insert—
‘(g) an institution of higher education which the young person has accepted an offer from.’.
Government amendment 17.
Amendment 37, in clause 42, page 33, line 6, at end insert—
‘(2A) If the plan specifies social care provision, the responsible local authority must secure the specified social care provision for the child or young person.’.
Amendment 63, page 33, line 13, leave out ‘suitable alternative arrangements’ and insert
‘arrangements suitable to the age, ability, aptitude and special needs of the child or young person and has chosen not to receive assistance with making provision.’.
Amendment 42, in clause 44, page 34, line 3, leave out subsection (5).
Amendment 43, in clause 45, page 34, line 37, leave out subsection (4).
Amendment 64, page 34, line 39, at end insert—
‘(4A) A local authority must not cease to maintain an EHC plan on the sole ground that the child or young person is educated otherwise than at school in accordance with section 7 of the Education Act 1996.’.
Government amendments 18 to 20.
Amendment 70, in clause 48, page 36, line 21, at end add—
‘(6) This section will not have effect until an Order is made by the Secretary of State, subject to affirmative resolution by both Houses of Parliament.
(7) Before making an Order under subsection (6), the Secretary of State must lay a copy of a report before both Houses of Parliament detailing findings from the pathfinder authorities established under the Special Educational Needs (Direct Payments) (Pilot Scheme) Order 2012, including but not limited to—
(a) the impact on educational outcomes for children and young people;
(b) the quality of provision received by children and young people;
(c) the value for money achieved;
(d) the impact on services provided for children and young people without EHC plans, or those for whom direct payments were not made.
(8) The Secretary of State may not prepare a report under subsection (7) until September 2014.
(9) An Order made under subsection (6) may amend this section as the Secretary of State deems necessary to ensure the effective operation of personal budgets, having had regard to the finding of the report produced by virtue of subsection (7).’.
Government amendment 21.
Amendment 38, in clause 50, page 37, line 18, at end insert ‘;
(g) the social care provision specified in an EHC plan;
(h) the healthcare provision specified in an EHC plan.’.
Amendment 47, in page 48, line 35, leave out clause 69.
Amendment 71, in clause 65, page 45, line 37, leave out ‘19’ and insert ‘25’.
Amendment 72, page 46, line 11, leave out ‘19’ and insert ‘25’.
Amendment 73, in clause 67, page 47, line 21, leave out
‘such persons as the Secretary of State sees fit’
and insert
‘publicly, for a period of not less than 90 days’.
Amendment 74, page 47, line 22, leave out ‘by them’ and insert
‘as part of that consultation’.
Amendment 75, in clause 67, page 47, line 23, leave out subsections (3) to (8) and insert—
‘(3) A code, or revision of a code, does not come into operation until the Secretary of State by order so provides.
(4) The power conferred by subsection (3) shall be made by statutory instrument.
(5) An order bringing a code, or revision of a code, into operation may not be made unless a draft order has been laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.
(6) When an Order or draft of an order is laid, the code or revision of a code to which it relates must also be laid.
(7) No order or draft of an order may be laid until the consultation required by subsection (2) has taken place.’.
Amendment 48, in clause 72, page 49, line 46, leave out from ‘education,’ to end of line 1 on page 50.
Government amendments 22 to 25.
Mr Timpson
Part 3 of the Bill introduces a much stronger framework for supporting children and young people with special educational needs. These reforms have been widely welcomed, and I am grateful to Members in all parts of the House for their interest in and support for them. We can be sure in the knowledge that the Bill has been significantly strengthened since draft clauses were published last autumn.
We have all met constituents who have had to battle to get the special educational support that their child needs. These reforms are ambitious; they aim to ensure that in future, children, young people and their parents are at the heart of the system, and that special educational provision builds around them, instead of asking them to adjust to the system. It will not always work perfectly in every case, but the pathfinders that I have visited have convinced me that we have a really exciting reform under way—one that challenges local authorities to design a system around those who use it, rather than conform to existing structures and processes. The reforms are also ambitious as regards personal aspirations. The new system will support young people through further education and training, up to the age of 25 for those who need it, and focus much more strongly on independent living and helping them to find paid employment. The provisions extend support to younger years as well, so that children are supported as soon as their needs are identified, from birth onwards, instead of having to wait until they reach school to be assessed.
The reforms provide the foundation for a system in which children and young people’s needs are picked up early; parents know what services they can reasonably expect their local schools, colleges, local authority, and health and social care services to provide, without having to fight for the information; those with more severe or complex needs have a co-ordinated assessment built around them and a single education, health and care plan from birth to 25; and parents and young people have greater control over their support. I believe these ambitions are shared across the House.
We had a wide-ranging, constructive debate on Second Reading, and the Committee sittings were passionate, knowledgeable and helpful. I hope that today we can build on the broad consensus that has characterised the debate to date.
We have also listened carefully to the views expressed by Members of the House, parents and young people, and many of the organisations supporting them, and we have acted to improve the SEN provisions following pre-legislative scrutiny and as the Bill has made its way through the House.
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
The Minister may recall that he kindly met me to discuss my particular concerns about children who had suffered from cancer and perhaps missed quite a large amount of school but did not fit in with the SEN criteria. What level of support could they expect under these proposals?
Mr Timpson
I recall the constructive meeting that I had with the hon. Gentleman and he will remember that I gave a commitment then to work with him and with organisations with which he has been working with great astuteness to see what more we can do through the code of practice and other means to provide the additional support that we all want to see so that no child, particularly a child with cancer, misses out on the opportunity to fulfil their potential, and I will continue to work with him to achieve that.
Following the Education Committee’s thorough and well-argued report—another one—in December, we amended the Bill in several ways. By virtue of clause 19, we introduced a requirement for local authorities when exercising a function under part 3 to have regard to the views, wishes and feelings of a child and his or her parent, or of the young person, and the importance of them participating as fully as possible in decisions, and being provided with information and support to enable them to do so—an important set of transcending principles.
We have clearly specified the right of parents and young people themselves to request an assessment for special educational needs, to remove any uncertainty. We have ensured that young people on apprenticeships can receive support through an education, health and care plan. We have enabled independent special schools and specialist colleges to apply to be on a list of institutions for which parents and young people with education, health and care plans could express a preference. We have changed our approach to mediation so that parents and young people must consider mediation but do not have to take it up and can go straight to appeal to the tribunal if they wish without prejudicing their position.
To ensure that services are responsive to families’ needs we added a requirement for local authorities to involve children, young people and parents in reviewing the local offer and to publish their comments about the local offer and what action they will take to respond, and we made provision for the SEN code of practice to be approved by Parliament by way of negative resolution.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
I apologise for missing the first two minutes of the Minister’s speech. He outlines responsibilities that have rightly been referred to various public agencies, but I find it somewhat confusing that nowhere can I find, either in the new clause or in the amendments, any reference to advocacy. I might have missed something, but what role do the Government see for advocates in the situations that we are discussing?
Mr Timpson
The right hon. Gentleman raises an important point. Advocacy comes in different forms. We have advocacy in relation to the legal process, and legal aid will still apply up to the point of tribunal for those who require legal advice. There is also advocacy in terms of trying to navigate the system. One thing that we are doing in relation to the pathfinders is to see who can help co-ordinate and navigate for parents and young people in a system that often has been too impenetrable, labyrinthine and drawn out. That could be through a key working role or through the work that the special educational needs co-ordinators carry out so effectively in so many of our schools. It is a practical response to the problem that we know exists while ensuring that the advocacy that is currently available for the legal process continues into the future. We set that out in Committee and I encourage the right hon. Gentleman to look carefully at what we said.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
Will the Minister reassure some local authorities that the proposal will still ensure integration between the 1970 legislation, the Children Act 1989 and this Act, and make sure that there is not a silo system that does not have the integrated service that we all so want?
Mr Timpson
My hon. Friend touches on the heart of the Bill, which is to tackle the perennial problem of special educational needs, in that education, health and social care have tended to work in parallel rather than in conjunction with one another. In many of the clauses, both through the general duty to co-operate, the joint commissioning clause, and now the duty on health as well as the duty to consult parents and children themselves, there is already, with the pathfinders, a growing involvement of each of those different agencies in coming together and concentrating on the central and most important issue, which is the child. I hope he will see that the Bill gives local authorities an opportunity to nurture and grow their relationships with health and other agencies, and ensure that as a consequence they are providing better services for children in their local area.
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend on behalf of the Education Committee for taking such a positive and constructive approach to our pre-legislative scrutiny report, and implementing so many of the proposals, as he has just listed.
My hon. Friend appeared before the Committee this morning in our inquiry into school sports, and he suggested that he would consider looking at the code of practice to ensure that rather than disabled children being sent to the library while others are doing sport, as we heard in evidence sometimes happens, they have access to sport in schools, and that that is part of an overall package to meet their needs.
Mr Timpson
As ever, I am grateful to the Chair of the Education Committee for raising a crucial element for many young people with a disability, and that is access to other activities outside those of the classroom. I am mindful of that and as I told the Committee this morning have seen for myself, at a special school in Chislehurst only last week, how the integration of sport in schools, where children with both physical and other disabilities are able to participate, can have a huge knock-on effect in other areas of their life. It would not always be appropriate through the identification of the needs and therefore the support for each child in relation to their plan to have a built-in element that incorporates and encompasses physical activity, but clearly we want to provide as much opportunity for them as for any other child. The schools should be doing it anyway under the Equality Act 2010 and the reasonable adjustments for which they are responsible, but it also makes good sense, as we know. I am happy—I made this commitment to the Committee—to look at that in the context of the code of practice, but also to work with many of the organisations and charities who are already out there, through the project ability scheme and others, to see what more they can do to spread good practice in this area. I am happy to keep my hon. Friend informed of that process.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
As has been mentioned, the Select Committee held a series of pre-legislative scrutiny meetings. Is the Minister satisfied that there are sufficient accountability mechanisms for agency co-operation, and that the appropriate agency will automatically take the lead? How will that work out in different cases?
Mr Timpson
Briefly to disaggregate my hon. Friend’s two points, clearly it is important that we know what is happening in schools on the delivery of SEN provision, and since September 2012 we have had a strengthened Ofsted framework that seeks to do that. I and my colleague in the Department of Health want to explore what more we can do to try to bring about a more multidimensional accountability and inspection regime for special educational needs that goes beyond the school gates and looks at it across education, health and social care, so there is more that we can do in that area. The Education Department is also looking at some of the destination measures in schools as a way of ensuring that we do not miss out on understanding the progress of children who sometimes fall below the radar because they do not count towards any of the measures of success that the school is being marked against. We need to get around that and make it more explicit that every child needs to be making progress whatever their ability, and there is no reason why all of them should not be doing so, and every school has a responsibility in that regard.
We made further changes in Committee, where I was pleased to include a specific duty requiring those responsible for commissioning health provision to secure the health care provision education, health and care plans. This is a hugely significant change and has been widely welcomed. Srabani Sen, board member of the Every Disabled Child Matters campaign and chief executive of Contact a Family, when giving evidence to the Committee on 5 March, said that
“it was phenomenally good news to hear this morning about the duty on health to provide. One of the things that that helps with enormously is bringing people together to work together at a service delivery level”—
a point that my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) made—
“but it also gives parents something solid that they can use when they are having these discussions with their service providers about how they get the right services for their child. I do not think we can overestimate the potential of what you”—
I think that means me—
“announced this morning. It is phenomenally useful.”––[Official Report, Children and Families Bill Public Bill Committee, 5 March 2013; c. 47-48, Q103.]
The new duty builds on the joint commissioning duty set out in the Bill, which requires local authorities and clinical commissioning groups, and NHS England where relevant, to assess the needs of the local population of children and young people with SEN and plan and commission services to meet them.
Mr Tom Clarke
The Minister has referred several times to the role of local authorities, but the reality is that some local authorities give greater priority to this than others. Because this ought to be—I think that the Government agree—person-centred, considering the needs, rights and ambitions of young people, has he had an opportunity to speak with the Local Government Association, for example?
Mr Timpson
Yes, I have had a number of meetings with the Local Government Association, the Association of Directors of Children’s Services and other bodies that will be responsible for delivering education, health and care plans and, more widely, SEN provision within their local area. This has been a huge consultative exercise, and one that continues through the pathfinders. One of the messages we have been clear about throughout the process is that legislation, although a key component of long-term, sustainable reform, is not the whole solution. We also need to see—this is happening through the pathfinders and starting to spread outside them as we develop the changes in the system more widely—a recognition that those bodies must play their part at grass-roots level and recalibrate the sorts of relationships that in the past have not been good enough to help deliver the required provision.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
I would like to build on the comments my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) made about the role of local authorities. The Royal National Institute of Blind People has raised specific concerns about the registration of visually impaired children—it is worried that some local authorities will do it but some will not. Has the Minister had an opportunity since that was discussed in Committee to have any further conversations with either the RNIB directly or local authorities on that issue?
Mr Timpson
I will be corrected if I am wrong, but my understanding is that there have been ongoing discussions. We are aware of the issue. As with all organisations that have expressed an interest in the Bill, we have been keen to keep an open dialogue with the RNIB to see what solutions we can find. Many of the solutions will be found at local level. We must accept that some conditions have a high incidence and some have a low incidence, and that can affect the sort of provision available right across the country. The beauty of trying to develop the local offer is that it will make it far more transparent not only in a local area, but across a regional area, so parents and young people will have a greater understanding of what is available to them, how they can access it and, if they are unable to do so, how they can make a complaint, which in the past has been quite a convoluted and impenetrable process. We must ensure that they have the power to make those decisions.
Guy Opperman
I am not sure whether I need to, but I will make a declaration: I have represented about 100 applicants for statements at special educational needs and disability tribunals, and local authorities still owe me money for some of them from before 2010. The simple question that my constituents in Northumberland would like answered, if that is possible, is this: will these proposals make it easier to gain a statement for those parents who have been trying to do so for so long, given that the process has been so convoluted and difficult over the years, as we have all found?
Mr Timpson
The short answer is yes. That is the intention of the Bill. There are a number of reasons for saying that. One of the complaints from parents about the statementing process relates less to the statement itself and more to early identification and the need for much greater effort from different agencies in co-ordinating the assessment and the plan. Everything in the Bill tries to encourage that and, in some circumstances, cajole the different bodies to come together and work with the family, rather than, as we have heard far too often, the family feeling that they are working in a different environment from those around them. By ensuring that that happens, we will reduce the prospect of conflict, misunderstanding and, therefore, the road to tribunal, which we all want to avoid. That is why we included the mediation process, albeit on a voluntary basis, to give parents and those responsible for providing services every opportunity to work together, co-operate and consult at every stage, but particularly in the early stages, in order to avoid unnecessary discord and damage further down the line.
Mr Graham Stuart
While the Minister is on the subject of conflict between local authorities and parents, may I press him, as many of my amendments do, on home-educating parents, who all too often have been subject to misinformation and abuse of power by local authorities? Will he give serious consideration to including a provision stating that parents who home educate are not to have their children’s SEN support removed and that local authorities, despite their duty to find children with SEN, do not have their powers to demand access to children strengthened? We should reinforce the primacy of parents in deciding what should happen to their children and ensure that local authorities are the servants of families, not their masters.
Mr Timpson
I have a strong memory of spending a late night in the House a few years ago when my hon. Friend managed to get more than 100 of us to present petitions on behalf of many of those parents who decided to home educate their children. I know that he, as chair of the all-party group on home education, has been a great advocate on their behalf. Clearly we want to ensure that every child with SEN, however they are educated, during the period of compulsory age and beyond, from nought to 25, gets the support they require to meet their full potential. That should be no different in the circumstances he describes. I will be able to respond in more detail when we debate his amendments, and I am happy to continue that conversation with him outside the Chamber.
Neil Carmichael
On home education and the obvious issues relating to special educational needs, what consideration has the Minister given to registration of those children who are home educated?
Mr Timpson
I am straying slightly outside my portfolio, but where it impinges on special educational needs clearly we want to ensure that those children receive the support they require. There were attempts in the last Parliament to bring about some form of registration, which was eventually put out to grass. I think we have the balance right at this stage, but of course it is something that my ministerial colleagues who are responsible for these matters will no doubt keep under review.
The new duty in the Bill relating to health commissioning also brings in joint commissioning arrangements, which must include those for securing education, health and care needs assessments and the education, health and care provision specified in the education, health and care plans. The new health duty requires health commissioners to ensure that the health elements of those plans are provided for each individual, thus providing direct clarity for parents that the support their child needs will be provided
We have taken an open approach to the Bill, listened carefully to the views of a wide range of people and made changes to improve it. I know that is the approach that my ministerial colleagues in the other place, including Lord Nash, intend to continue when the Bill makes its way to them. However, before it does we have some important business to conclude in this House today.
I will begin our consideration of the Bill’s SEN provisions by speaking to new clause 9 in a little more detail and to Government amendments 17 to 25. These amendments clarify responsibilities and make consequential amendments to legislation as a result of provisions in the Bill. With regard to new clause 9, it is important that the responsibilities of local authorities are clear when a child or young person with an education, health and care plan moves from one area to another. The new clause provides for regulations to specify those responsibilities. Regulations will make it clear that the new local authority is treated as though it had made the plan. This ensures that plans do not lapse when children and young people move from one area to another and that support for their special educational needs is maintained. I therefore urge the House to support new clause 9.
Amendment 17 to clause 41 has been tabled at the request of the Welsh Government. It would enable independent schools that are specially organised for making provision for children and young people with special educational needs, and specialist post-16 institutions in Wales, to apply to the Secretary of State for Education to be on a list of independent institutions that those with education, health and care plans can ask to be named on their plan. If independent schools in Wales wish to put themselves forward for approval, the amendment will be of benefit to children and young people who live close to the Welsh border whose needs would be best met in a Welsh independent school or those who would be appropriately placed in independent boarding provision in Wales. I urge the House to support the amendment.
On amendments 18 to 20 on personal budgets, I signalled our intention to table these consequential amendments when we debated clause 48 on personal budgets in Committee. The changes they make are necessary because of the changes we made to clause 42 in Committee by placing the duty in clause 42(3) on health commissioners to secure the health provision identified in an education, health and care plan. The amendments allow health commissioners to discharge their duty to make health care provision specified in EHC plans when this provision is secured using a direct payment. This replicates the equivalent provision on local authorities set out in clause 48(5). The amendments clarify that when parents or young people exercise their direct payment, this allows the commissioning body to discharge its statutory duty. The proposed use of the words “having been” in clauses 48(5) and 48(7) makes it clear that the duties on commissioning bodies and local authorities to secure provision are discharged only through the use of a direct payment when the child or young person has actually received the provision, in a manner in keeping with the regulations. I urge the House to support these amendments.
Government amendment 21 relates to clause 49, which inserts new section 17ZA into the Children Act 1989, giving local authorities a power to continue to provide services they have been providing under section 17 to a young person before their 18th birthday to that young person when they are 18 and over. This is a technical amendment that makes it clear that the power in section 17ZA applies only to local authorities in England.
Government amendments 22 to 25 relate to schedule 3 and make further amendments to existing legislation as a consequence of the Bill’s provisions—for example, replacing references to statements and learning difficulty assessments throughout. These are necessary changes to ensure the proper implementation of the reforms in part 3, and I therefore urge hon. Members to approve them.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to debate this Bill again, this time on the Floor of the House. In Committee we had some excellent debates on this part of the Bill, in particular. A large number of amendments were tabled by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, but we were at all times united in our ambition for the children and young people to whom the Bill applies.
It is crucial that children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities be given the support they need to access education and reach their potential, academically and in terms of their physical, social and emotional development. It is not just a moral imperative that leads us to seek those better outcomes for all children; there is also a financial imperative for the whole country. A young person who makes a successful transition to adulthood and has achieved as much as they can educationally is likely to be less in need of welfare, health and social care support and more likely to be able to work and contribute their skills to the economy and their taxes to the Treasury. We support a great many of the reforms that the Government are making to achieve these better outcomes, but we have sought at all stages to ensure that we are going as far as we can, that current rights and entitlements are protected and built on, and that children and young people, and their families, are at the very heart of the changes made and are able adequately to hold agencies to account where they do not get the support they should.
We support the introduction of personal budgets to allow families a greater degree of choice in securing the choice that their child needs. As I said in Committee, I would have greatly welcomed such an opportunity when I was trying to get my severely dyslexic son the support he needed to get through his GCSEs. However, there are serious and abiding concerns about whether they can work in the sense of improving outcomes while providing value for money for the taxpayer, and there are still questions about how the market for support that this reform will create will really look. The Government are running pathfinders in an effort to answer these questions, but they have not been answered yet. Parliament is therefore being asked to legislate for something that we do not know will work and could well be a costly failure.
Mr Tom Clarke
I agree with my hon. Friend about the social, educational and employment needs of young people. On her point about the economy, I wonder whether she is aware that she is supported by the National Audit Office, which has said:
“Supporting one person with a learning disability into employment could, in addition to improving their independence and self-esteem, reduce lifetime costs to the public purse by around £170,000”.
She is therefore speaking very logically.
Mrs Hodgson
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who quantifies what we all know and believe is the crux of this issue. He has made a very important point.
Amendment 70 seeks to ensure that these reforms cannot be rolled out until such time as the pathfinders have run their course and provided sufficient evidence on the effectiveness of personal budgets that Parliament can be content in allowing the roll-out to go ahead. I hope the Minister will again take it in the spirit in which it is intended and give a commitment to the House that this measure will not be steamrollered through.
We support the switch from statements to education, health and care plans, extending the maximum age of support for young people to 25 to ensure that it covers further education courses and apprenticeships, and the ambition to encourage joint working between different agencies in drawing up those plans and providing the services described in them. However, there are still some concerns that, as worded, the Bill would give local authorities a get-out clause from providing services to enable young people between the age of 19 and 25 to carry on in education, even where they have not yet achieved to the level we might expect for young people without SENs. Those concerns are addressed by amendments 40 to 43, tabled by the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), which we support. I, like him, would be grateful for firmer assurances that prior outcomes, not age, will be the main focus of deciding whether or not to grant or cancel a plan.
My amendments 71 and 72 would ensure that we are measuring the outcomes of young people with plans up to the age of 25 rather than 19, as is currently required under the Special Educational Needs (Information) Act 2008, which is transposed into clause 65. It stands to reason that if we are maintaining support for these young people, we should also know how well that support has helped them. I would be grateful if the Minister committed to how best that might be done within the “special educational needs in England” analysis documents that clause 65 will require the Secretary of State to produce.
Another set of information that should be published as part of the annual report relates to the special educational needs and disability tribunal. I would like parents and campaigners to have access to information on the outcomes and costs to the public purse in tribunal administration and the amount spent by local authorities on legal fees—of the cases that reach that stage—so we can see who the worst offenders are and which local authorities would prefer to pay a lawyer £20,000 to prevent a child from getting £5,000-worth of support. The Minister helpfully pointed me towards some information that was squirreled away on the Ministry of Justice’s website, but as he will know, it is not exactly what I am asking for in this amendment, and in any case the information should be much easier to find and interpret. I therefore hope that he will continue to look at this issue or tell the House why, in an age of transparency, this information should not be available to parents.
We want to reduce as far as possible the current postcode lottery, but still fear that the Government’s plans for local offers, as drafted, could lead to greater disparities in services across the country. We welcome the requirement to compile and publish local offers, but fear that without a baseline expectation from the Department of what should be in them or, indeed, any departmental oversight, they may not be worth the paper they are printed on. As the Education Committee has pointed out, getting local offers right is crucial. If we do not and the services that children and young people need are not provided, we will just see more and more requests for statutory assessments.
Our amendments 66 and 67 would therefore require local offers accurately to reflect what is actually available in the local area, rather than simply what the local authority might say it expects to be available. They would remove the wriggle room that local authorities might have and ensure that they keep the offers under constant review. I hope the issue can be explored further in the other place.
Amendment 69 would require the Secretary of State to set national standards for what the local offers should include. I am no enemy of localism, as the Minister might argue—local offers should absolutely reflect local needs and priorities and be drawn up in consultation with local parent groups. However, if we are to tackle the unwritten postcode lottery, there should surely be a baseline of services that any child or young person anywhere in England should be able to expect. I have said before that local offers may simply codify the unwritten postcode lottery, and that they have the potential to result in a race to the bottom as local authorities look at their budgets and seek to undercut the local offers of their neighbours. I want assurances from the Minister that there will be something—anything—to stop those fears being realised.
Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)
The phrase “postcode lottery” is well used in all sorts of policy areas, but does the hon. Lady accept that there is a difference between a postcode lottery and a postcode democracy? In other words, where there is democratic accountability it is not, strictly speaking, a lottery, although I accept some of the hon. Lady’s concerns.
Mrs Hodgson
I accept that that phraseology is probably not appropriate for this scenario, but it is important that the Government consider a baseline so that we do not end up with different levels of service that can be referred to as a postcode lottery.
Amendment 69 also refers specifically to the participation of children and young people with special educational needs or disabilities as a key outcome that local offers should be geared towards achieving. The Minister made some positive comments about this amendment in Committee, so I would be grateful if he provided an update on his work in order to ensure that the need to help these children and young people make the most of the benefits that information communication can afford them is adequately reflected in the code of practice.
We are also concerned about the lack of clarity from Ministers on what will replace the graduated response to SEN in schools—school action and school action plus—which currently provides support to 17% of pupils. Members may know that the answer will lie in the revised code of practice rather than in the Bill itself, and that is why we have tabled amendments 73, 74 and 75, which seek to ensure that the document is subject to thorough public consultation before a final version is actively approved by Parliament, rather than laid under the negative procedure. I hope the Minister will recognise why we feel that is so important, and commit to tabling Government amendments to that effect in the other place.
In addition to our own amendments, I have also signed a number tabled by the hon. Member for South Swindon. As reflected in his valuable contribution to the Committee’s scrutiny of part 3, the hon. Gentleman has a deep passion for and knowledge of the issues, and I find myself agreeing far more than disagreeing with him, despite the fact that we sit on opposite sides of the House. In particular, we are both extremely keen to see some movement from the Government on clause 69, which states that children and young people in custody should not benefit from the reforms in this part of the Bill.
I feel—and I think the Minister agrees—that this is a massive missed opportunity. Many of the inmates of young offenders institutes will have special educational needs. For example, 18% of young offenders have a statement, compared with just 2% to 3% of the general population. At least 60% will have communication problems and a similar percentage will have literacy and numeracy difficulties. Many of those special educational needs will never have been identified, despite the fact that in many cases they were probably a contributory factor to those people finding themselves in this position. As it stands, they will not be able to continue to receive the support they were already getting if they are placed in custody, and nor will they be eligible for an assessment if someone working with them in the institution thinks they need one.
This is not only counter-productive, in that it will severely limit these institutions’ ability to reduce reoffending through education, which is what we want them to do; it is also overly prescriptive—it prevents local authorities from continuing the support they want to provide to a young person in the hope that it will improve their life chances and steer them away from crime and antisocial behaviour.
I dealt comprehensively in Committee with the reason the Minister gave for why a plan is not suitable in these circumstances—the need to name an educational establishment in the plan—and I hope he has had a chance to look into the role that virtual academies and courses can play, and at the great work the Nisai Virtual Academy is already doing in this area.
Labour voted against clause 30 in Committee and will be tempted to do so again if the hon. Member for South Swindon wishes to test the will of the House, but I sincerely hope the Minister will respond positively and give us both an assurance that the Government will remove the clause at a later stage. If it is not removed, I fear it will face even tougher opposition from the noble Lords in the other place.
The hon. Member for South Swindon has also tabled amendment 37, which was one of the main bones of contention in Committee. I, like him, believe that education, health and care plans should do what they say on the tin and entitle the holder to expect all of the provisions they detail. At the beginning of this process we fear that they will be no better than the statements they are replacing, and simply provide entitlements to education provision. Ministers had said that there was no way of imposing duties on health bodies to keep up their end of the bargain, but the Minister, to his credit, quickly found a way of placing duties on them to deliver what they are expected to, and improved the plans immeasurably in doing so.
One piece of the jigsaw remains, however: the social care element. Once again, we have an opportunity in this Bill vastly to improve the rights of children and young people and their families in accessing the services they need. Amendment 37 would add the finishing touch to education, health and care plans by placing a duty on local authorities to secure the social care provision detailed within them, meaning that those plans would provide families with the certainty and confidence they need. I urge the Minister to find a way to make that happen.
I also support new clause 21, tabled by the hon. Member for South Swindon, on inclusive and accessible services, a subject on which we had a great debate in Committee; his amendment 39, on what constitutes educational support; and amendment 38, which seeks to create a single point of accountability for all three strands of provision within a plan. I look forward to hearing what he has to say about all the new clauses and amendments when he makes what I am sure will be an excellent contribution.
I also support new clause 8, tabled by the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders), which centres on provision in schools for children with medical conditions, and which I and my colleagues tabled in Committee as new clause 19. Some 29,000 children in our schools have diabetes, 1.1 million have asthma, 60,000 have epilepsy and many more have heart conditions or suffer from regular migraines or the after-effects of meningitis or cancer, as has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami).
Those children and their parents deserve to know that their school can effectively manage those conditions while they are there; that the child will be given their medication, inhaler or whatever they need whenever they need it; that staff will know when they are being affected by their condition; and that allowances will be made for them where appropriate. We do not have a consistent approach to managing medical conditions in schools as yet, and I agree with the Health Conditions in Schools Alliance that this Bill provides an excellent opportunity for the Government to at least look at how schools support these children and, indeed, at how schools are supported to provide that support. We cannot just expect teachers and school staff to know how to do that as a matter of course. They need help from the NHS, which has the experts.
We want much stronger assurances on all the issues covered by those amendments than we received in Committee. Otherwise, they will be revisited in the other place. I look forward to hearing those assurances when the Minister gets back to his feet.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), who rightly said that the Public Bill Committee not only saw a cross-party coming together of minds, but delivered meaningful scrutiny of probably the most important Bill relating to special educational needs that we will see in a generation. It is 30 years since the Education Act 1981 broke the ground after the noble Baroness Warnock made her recommendations. We are in the unique position as legislators of being able to make a step change for the generations to come. That is why it is incumbent on us all to get the detail right.
I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for his constructive engagement with the debate, and not only in the Public Bill Committee. He has engaged not only with Members of this House, but with the disability sector. He has brought understanding and experience to the deliberations of the Bill, which we have enjoyed. I note with enthusiasm his willingness to improve the Bill. As has rightly been said, the Government have introduced important legal duties on clinical commissioning groups to bolt down the health elements of education, health and care plans. That good work goes on today in the form of further amendments.
To get to the meat of the matter, I will deal in turn with each of the amendments that I have tabled; my comments have been foreshadowed by those of the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West. I am grateful to her for outlining what I want to say and make no criticism of that at all. Amendment 37, which appears in my name and hers, relates to the social care element of education, health and care plans. It is, as she described it, the last piece in the jigsaw.
I enjoyed the exchange that I had with the Minister about this matter in Committee. It is correct that the groundbreaking Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 contains an important duty that can be applied to social care services for disabled children. However, there is a danger that in failing to link that existing duty with the duties that we are creating, we will not escape the silo effect of assessments. What do I mean by that? There is a danger that a wholly separate social care assessment will continue to be made, without the global approach that I and the Minister believe is the ethos behind the Bill. It would therefore be a missed opportunity if, for want of a few short amendments, we missed this trick.
We should look at this matter from the point of view of the parent of a child who comes fresh to a system of which they have no experience. Surely the thrust of our approach must be oriented around not just the child, but their family. We have heard many stories—I speak from experience—of parents having to reinvent the wheel every time they engage with a separate part of local provision. We must all seek to avoid that. That is why I commend the wording of amendment 37, which would do much to tie together the assessment process in the way that I have described.
On a related theme, and with regard to the point of view of parents and families, amendment 38 deals with the right of appeal against decisions that are made about the creation and ambit of education, health and care plans. The Bill allows the first-tier special educational needs and disability tribunal to hear appeals only about the education aspects of the plan. That means that it covers only part of the plan. I worry that we could end up with a complex and bureaucratic system in which challenges to the health and social care aspects of provision have to be conducted simultaneously through different tribunals, procedures and processes.
I noted with encouragement the Minister’s comments in Committee. I know that the draft code of practice, which is helpfully published alongside the Bill and will be consulted on later this year, states that having a single point of redress for all the provisions in an education, health and care plan would be helpful. He said in Committee that the existing complaints procedures in health and social care meant that it would be unnecessary to extend the powers of the tribunal. However, he made the important concession that a single point of reference would be desirable. That is helpful.
Neil Carmichael
When the Education Committee considered that aspect of the measures during pre-legislative scrutiny, two issues arose. The first was the difference in culture between education and health. I wonder whether my hon. Friend wants to comment on that, given that we expect education and health bodies to work together and that any accountability process could be complicated. The second issue was that health would have to take the lead in some cases because it would have the overwhelming portion of the responsibility, but the Bill focuses on education.
Mr Buckland
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, because he makes an important umbrella point about the difficulties that could be encountered and that—dare I say it—could be exploited by clever lawyers. I often say that and I have to remind the House that, although I am not sure that I am clever, I must admit that I am of the legal profession. It is proper to concede that point against my profession, because lawyers will be instructed by local authorities that need to conserve their resources and will increasingly look to discharge their statutory duties, but to go no further. We have to avoid the scenario of families having to wait for provision while lawyers dance on the head of a pin over costly and unnecessary arguments.
Dan Rogerson
I am grateful for the huge amount of work that the hon. Gentleman has done on this subject during the passage of the Bill and elsewhere. He is making a strong argument for a unified appeals process. There is strong logic, which has been pursued by the Minister and his predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), for bringing the processes together so that families who are looking for support have one point of contact or one meeting to attend. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if the current tribunal process is not the right way to achieve that, the Government can continue to consider the matter as the evidence comes back from the pilot?
Mr Buckland
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. He makes an important point about a common entry point for families. That is a good start, but more needs to be done to build on it. To be frank, it may not be necessary to do that through primary legislation and the rules of the tribunals might be used. That would be a matter for Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service. I know my hon. Friend is liaising with counterparts in the Ministry of Justice on other matters that I shall come on to, and I sure he will also give this issue careful and anxious thought.
At the moment, clause 50(4)(a) allows
“other matters relating to EHC plans against which appeals may be brought;”
to be added to the jurisdiction of the tribunal. To be fair to my hon. Friend, there does seem to be a power within the Bill, but it would be wise to go just one furlong further and make it absolutely clear to the families we represent that simplicity is the order of the day when it comes to people’s rights to challenge decisions that—let us not forget this—will affect the life course of the young people we are dealing with.
Let me move on to a rather interesting—well, I hope so—and important matter. Having to admit to being a lawyer is not popular in this House, but words are important and if we change the meaning of something, once again the lawyers will jump all over it. In that spirit, let us consider amendment 39, which relates to the position of current case law, and the synthesis between health care provision, social care provision and education—a point that returns to the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael). The Government’s intention seems clear: they wish to replicate current case law when it comes to how local authorities judge their responsibility to make provision in that area. Clause 21 includes the words
“wholly or mainly for the purposes of education”,
and I share the concern that the words “wholly or mainly” set a different and higher threshold than is currently set out in case law. In the 1999 Bromley case, Lord Justice Sedley spoke about a case-by-case analysis of particular applications, rather than a general principle as seems to be suggested by the clause. We should therefore consider a spectrum or range of provision from purely medical to purely educational need. A large number of cases will fall inside that spectrum, bearing in mind the common and well-understood scenario that with a particular need often comes a co-morbid need—a special educational need will often be accompanied by a health need as well.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
I strongly support the points that my hon. Friend is making eloquently and with his normal charm, especially as they relate to particular groups. I speak from my experience of working with children who have Tourette’s. That is one of the most obvious examples of co-morbidities and, for want of a better expression, people fall through the cracks in current legislation and are often failed by educational or health provision. The amendment seeks to ameliorate that difficult situation.
Mr Buckland
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, and I pay tribute to him for the work he does with a very challenging condition. A lot of people think Tourette’s syndrome is a funny thing, but for those who suffer from it, it is a challenging and difficult condition that is often misunderstood by members of the public. Perhaps I should pause for a moment and pay tribute to the families and carers who, day in, day out, have to put up with ill-informed and quite frankly abusive comments from members of the public who should know better, whether those parents are taking their child to use a disabled lavatory in a supermarket or going to the cinema and trying to enjoy a film with their child who may have a special need that means they make a lot of noise or have to move about. We still have a long way to go in society to achieve general understanding among a wider section of the public about what it is like to live with a child who has special needs. It is good that an increasing number of towns offer autism-friendly cinema screenings, for example, that allow people to sit in comfort on a Sunday afternoon without needing to have eyes in the back of their head or worrying about what somebody else will say about their child. I have parenthesised a little, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention.
I was talking about “wholly or mainly” and the concern shared by many people that we could end up with a wholly artificial argument about a particular type of provision falling between two stools. Thankfully, it has been made clear on case authority that speech and language therapy would be an educational need, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) said, in a number of examples there will be less clarity and an ugly argument could break out between the health service and the local authority about who is responsible for what.
Alison Seabeck
It has been interesting to listen to the hon. Gentleman and his expert comments. Does he accept that young people with disabilities often drift into having mental health problems at different levels, and that that group faces enormous problems? We know that there is often a lot of difficulty in the education and health services when deciding who should manage those young people.
Mr Buckland
That is absolutely correct, and I am grateful to the hon. Lady. Sadly, mental health issues are a co-morbidity that becomes prevalent if, for example, a condition such as autism is not identified at an early age. It is a tragedy that so many young people who have autism or Asperger’s-related conditions end up with a mental health problem because their condition is not diagnosed or has been misunderstood or in some cases mistreated. I pay tribute, however, to child and adolescent mental health services that do the job well, understand the needs of people with pre-existing conditions, and adapt their services accordingly. A visit to a CAMHS unit can be quite a regressive experience for a young person with autism, which is why adapting services around the child or young person is so important.
Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)
My hon. Friend makes a powerful case. Does he share my view that, as with the local offer, it is important to avoid confusion between two things—educational provision for local students and educational provision available in the local area? With some conditions, the local area simply might not be capable of providing the educational specialist provision that would be available from national providers.
Mr Buckland
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, who I know represents a wonderful special college in Hereford that does tremendous work, not just on a local basis but on a wider basis. He brings a different strand to some of our debates about the need to ensure that, where necessary, there will still be placements well out of the borough, county or district in which young people live. Colleges such as the one my hon. Friend admirably represents fulfil that need and gap and must be part of our provision.
Mr Buckland
I will give way one more time to my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) and then to the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke).
Jesse Norman
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again. He is right to say that the Royal National College for the Blind is an extraordinary institution, in part because it provides, through its own specialist skills, the kind of holistic understanding of how educational and health care needs can come together. That is one reason why it is such an extraordinary and special place and why it must be preserved amid all the other things the Bill seeks to achieve.
Mr Tom Clarke
In arguing powerfully, as he is, for a holistic approach, including for education, does the hon. Gentleman accept that that can impact on the later lives of such young people, particularly with issues such as employment?
Mr Buckland
It is a pleasure to serve in the House with the right hon. Gentleman, who has a long and honourable track record of campaigning for young people and adults with disability. He understands very well from his experience that the repercussions of decisions made at that stage in life echo down the years. We mentioned mental health and employment prospects. Only one in four young people with autism get into employment. I believe we can improve on that shameful statistic. I know there is a will among Ministers, including the noble Lord Freud, to change that, which I believe we can do.
Mr Buckland
I will give way to my hon. Friend, the Chairman of the Education Committee.
Mr Stuart
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, who makes a powerful speech. I wonder whether he is right to propose removing “wholly or mainly”, because the Bill would read:
“Health care provision or social care provision which is made…for the purposes of the education or training of a child”.
Such provision does not have to be made for that purpose to be significant to the education or training of a child. I put it to the Minister that a better wording would result in provision that is significant to the education or training of a child or young person being treated as special educational provision. It would capture that which is important to deliver the education a child needs. The original motivator is not the key point.
Mr Buckland
I do not claim a monopoly of wisdom on the precise wording, but it is important to go back to the case law—London Borough of Bromley v. the SEN tribunal in 1999, in which Lord Justice Sedley stated:
“Special educational provision is, in principle, whatever is called for by a child’s learning difficulty,”
which he goes on to define. He states:
“What is special about special educational provision is that it is additional to or different from ordinary educational provision”.
In that phrase, we have a more fundamental definition. Provision is not what is significant, but whatever is necessary. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for looking at that. My hon. Friend the Minister is listening carefully. Either in this House or in the other place, we need to achieve clarity and a replication of the words of the Lord Justice of Appeal, so that we do not end up moving away from the Government’s clearly stated intention.
Jesse Norman
Does my hon. Friend share my view that, to be effective and to respect that leading judgment, the idea of a local offer must include national providers? The judgment is not delimited by location; it merely says that provision should be whatever is necessary. A national provision is sometimes the correct option for a person with special needs.
Mr Buckland
My hon. Friend is right. Low-incidence special needs can be catered for only by specialist colleges such as the one he represents—another college in Loughborough offers wonderful provision on a national basis.
Mr Buckland
My hon. Friend has been very patient, so I shall let him intervene.
Stephen McPartland
I thank my hon. Friend very much for giving way. I am interested in the other end of the spectrum—pre-school children and the tension between education and health. In Stevenage, we have a nursery called Tracks, which provides education support for pre-school children with autism. The local education authority does not recognise that such children could have autism, so parents waste a year or two of normal school time while they persuade the authority that their child has autism.
Mr Buckland
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, who, in effect, gives us a case study. He reminds me that I want to draw back to what we were discussing. I have a hypothetical case study before me. A young 15-year-old with Asperger’s and co-occurring mental health difficulties receives cognitive behavioural therapy. Before starting that therapy, his attendance at school was low, attending as few as two days a week, but with the help of the therapy he attends more like four days a week. His conditions have a huge effect on his home life and the quality of relations with his parents and wider family.
Under the new system, it is not clear whether that young man’s cognitive behavioural therapy would be deemed
“wholly or mainly for the purposes of…education”.
Without it, he could not access education, because he would not attend regularly. We need to answer that question. We do not want to put such people in that position, or to have artificial debates on what the law means.
Neil Carmichael
My hon. Friend is making an outstanding speech on a critical issue. I want to reinforce the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on the importance of access to national facilities, because we must not localise provision at the expense of national organisations. Ruskin Mill in my constituency, and the National Star College in my county, provide expertise that we do not necessarily find elsewhere that is critical to young people’s futures. I want to put down a strong marker that we should ensure that national facilities are not put at risk through the funding—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. We are drifting now. Interventions are supposed to be short points that are relevant to the speech at the time they are made. If Members want to contribute, they can. The hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) has had the floor for some time, and other hon. Members wish to speak in this important debate. Despite his generosity in giving way, I am sure he is probably coming towards the end of what he wishes to say in this part of the debate.
Mr Buckland
I am extremely grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Your exhortation allows me to move on to the other amendments in my name, which I will deal with as expeditiously as I can.
Amendments 40 to 43 deal with young people over 18. The extension of legal protections for young people with SEN up to 25, which is at the heart of the Bill, is warmly welcome. However, the Bill states a number of times that local authorities “must have regard to” a young person’s age when making decisions on the support they receive after they are 18. We understand that the extension of provision to 25 does not create a blanket right to education for all young people with SEN, but we are concerned that the current drafting could give another get-out to local authorities, which could use the fact that a young person was over 18 to deny them support. Therefore, I suggest the removal of the phrase
“must have regard to his or her age”
to avoid that unintentional consequence.
Amendment 44 relates to the duty of health commissioners. As I have said, I welcome that extension, which is a significant improvement, and which breaks the problem of the silo effect on education and health care plans. However, in the amendment, I am asking whether the provision goes far enough. Clause 37(2)(d) places a duty on local authorities to include in the plans health provision that is “reasonably required” by a child or young person. With clever lawyers, arguments could arise over the meaning of “reasonably”. We should therefore delete that word.
Clause 37(2)(d) also states that health services that must be included in the EHC plan must be linked to the
“learning difficulties and disabilities which result in”
the special educational needs of
“the child or young person.”
In other words, the health provision must be linked to the specific impairment that has resulted in the child or young person being considered to have SEN. If the health need is not specifically linked, it does not need to be included. The danger is that limiting the requirement could result in confusion and, bluntly, injustice. For example, if a child with Down’s syndrome has a related heart condition, health provision needed to support their medical needs would need to be included in the EHC plan. However, if a child with Down’s syndrome has chronic asthma, which is unrelated to their Down’s and does not result in the SEN, there is no requirement to include the medical need in the plan. Such a distinction works against the Government’s intention to create a co-ordinated system. Once again, energy is being wasted on arguments about what is related to the special need. Let us try to cut the Gordian knot and deal with the issue in a straightforward way that does not create confusion and the potential for litigation.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
This is a particularly important amendment, among the many that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. I strongly agree that this duty is extremely important in making the local offer meaningful. I hope the Government will listen to the support for the duty, as well as to the representations that I am sure will be made in the other place. In making this contribution, I draw the attention of the House to my declaration of interest.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. Before the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) gets to his feet again I have to say that he has now been speaking for 32 minutes. Other Members wish to speak, so I hope he will draw his remarks to a conclusion soon—in the next 60 seconds—so we can move on to other contributions to this important debate.
Mr Buckland
I bear your strictures seriously, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I pray in aid remarks I have made in the past on the importance of the accountability of the local offer, and echo the comments made by the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West on clause 69. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to redouble his efforts with the Ministry of Justice, so that clause 69 is expunged from the Bill when it returns to this House.
May I very briefly mention new clause 21, which is part of this group? It relates to the duty to ensure that there is inclusion for children and young people. That must not just be a comfortable word that we in this place all use—it has to mean something. In transforming local services, we must stop making an assumption, even for children and young people in special schools, that there will not be times when they will want to access mainstream services. I should add that a large number of children with special needs currently enjoy mainstream education with appropriate support. We need to underpin the spectrum of provision, whether in the form of education or other local provisions, which is why I commend new clause 21, which was tabled with my colleagues on the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the hon. Members for Aberavon (Dr Francis) and for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma).
I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to address the House at some length. I apologise for that, but this is an important Bill. We have got to get it right.
Mr Tom Clarke
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland). For politicians these days, a few kind words go a long way. I congratulate him on his effective work on autism. The House will be pleased to hear that I do not intend to speak for long, as there is so much business today, but I wish to focus on amendments 46, 66, 67, 68 and 69. If I find myself on a different path, I am sure you will keep me in order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I would like to pick up on comments made on both sides of the House. I thank sincerely my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), who led for the Opposition. She rightly focused on education, which is vital in bringing out the talents and abilities of children, and recognised that these issues should, at every level—for education, certainly, but also employment, health matters and so on—be person-centred. My hon. Friend will agree when I say that disabled people are one of the groups that are the furthest away from the employment market, and education has an impact on that. Disabled people are twice as likely to be unemployed as their non-disabled peers. In 2012, the Office for Disability Issues estimated that 46% of working age disabled people are in employment, compared with 76% of working age non-disabled people. My hon. Friend and other hon. Members were absolutely right to focus on the big issues that have an impact on those with learning disabilities.
I am joint chair, with Lord Rix, of the all-party group on learning disability. We have achieved a great deal, but we still have much more to do. One of the key features of the Bill, for example, under clause 19 is the move to involve young people and children under the age of 16 in decisions about their special educational needs provision. Children and young people with special educational needs, particularly those with a learning disability, have trouble reading and understanding material unless it is fully effective, and that applies to Braille and other things.
Although localism is appropriate and schools should be judged on how well they are doing, there nevertheless ought to be standards that are accepted across the whole of the UK. I remind the House, as a Scottish Member, that although these matters have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament, the annual economic and fiscal settlement has to bear the Barnett formula in mind, so it is as appropriate to discuss these issues in England as it is in the devolved institutions.
It is essential that any information for, or consultation with, people with a learning disability is accessible and meaningful to ensure effective participation and involvement. Mencap has highlighted that this means using easy read formats for blind or partially sighted people. Organisations such as Scope point out that such necessities should not be a postcode lottery, as my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West also rightly said. This is the challenge before us. I am a little envious that I was not on the Committee, because I am sure that its considerations were thoughtful and progressive, and I congratulate it on its work.
I would like to conclude on this note. On the issues that we are dealing with—education, health, care and social matters—coming back to the child and the family is vital. Before I sit down, I shall give one example. A few years ago, I was invited to an exhibition in Glasgow organised by the National Autistic Society demonstrating some of the wonderful work in art and music that young people with autism were nevertheless able to produce. The VIPs opening the exhibition stood beside a particularly impressive painting, but as we listened to the speeches we were discouraged by the noise that one of the children was making, until we realised that this beautiful painting, which we had all admired, was painted by that young woman. That is the opportunity. We can do it. We can deliver for special educational needs. I hope that as the Bill progresses through both Houses, it will be seen as a major step in that noble direction.
Mr Graham Stuart
It is a pleasure to take part in this debate and to follow my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) and the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke). The right hon. Gentleman’s final point was right: this is a flagship Bill. Just as the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 turned out to be an historic step forward and a great achievement by the then Conservative Government, so I think this flagship Bill will be a great achievement of this coalition Government. It is symbolic that the Minister’s predecessor was a Liberal Democrat and that he has carried the Bill forward.
I know that we have limited time but I want to make a few comments. I was a little sceptical at the beginning of this process, and I remain worried that we might create a level of expectation among parents greater than the Bill can deliver, especially in this time of austerity, not least for local government budgets, but my scepticism and doubt have been eroded over time. The way successive Ministers have worked and the way the Bill has taken shape gives me hope that it can be as significant for children with special educational needs as the Disability Discrimination Act was for those with disabilities.
I wish to speak to my amendments 59 to 64, but first I want to put on the record my thanks to the Minister for his close and courteous co-operation with my Committee. His actions to improve the Bill in response to our recommendations have been appreciated, and he was big enough to list the changes that the Select Committee had suggested and which the Government had adopted. Ministers should not be embarrassed—quite the contrary—to change their proposals on the basis of evidence and submissions from people in the Chamber and outside.
The Education Committee paid particularly close attention to part 3 of the Bill on children and young people in England with special educational needs. As I say, we welcomed many features of the Bill in our pre-legislative scrutiny, such as the introduction of integrated education, health and care plans and the fact that the new statutory framework for SEN will cover children and young people from birth all the way to age 25. We should not underestimate the significance of these changes. They will deliver a process for assessing and meeting children’s and young people’s individual needs that could be more coherent, comprehensive and compassionate. As always, however, the devil lies in the detail, so my Committee will closely monitor the impact of these changes in practice.
My amendments have a common theme: to ensure that nothing in the Bill reduces the centrality of parents in making decisions for their children. I am particularly concerned to ensure that local authorities do not use the Bill to seek to change the balance in their relationship with the parents of children with special educational needs. I wish the Bill to enhance, not diminish, the role, power and influence of parents. I have particular concerns about parents who have chosen to educate their children at home. From discussions with the Minister, I know it is not the Government’s intention to undermine the parental role, but unless that is made clear in the Bill, there will always be the risk that these things will creep in.
That is why I have proposed amendment 59. It would insert a new subsection (e) in clause 19 expressly requiring local authorities to have regard to the right of parents to make their own arrangements for their children, in accordance with the Education Act 1996. Without this, the possibility will remain that local authorities might try to steamroller home-educating parents, who are only trying to do the right thing by their children. I am not saying it will necessarily happen, certainly not in all cases, but it is conceivable. My amendment is intended to prevent the situation from arising, whether through sins of omission or of commission. That is to say, the aim is to prevent local authorities from forgetting that parents have the primary responsibility for their child’s education. My amendment would assert that responsibility and the right of families to be free to educate their children independently, if they so wish.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
I apologise for coming in a bit late. Some years ago I had a ten-minute rule Bill on this subject and I welcome the fact that the amendment will address it. I would like to put it on record that, as far as I am concerned, this is a welcome amendment.
Mr Stuart
I welcome that intervention.
These statistics are unacceptable and reflect a situation that places unfair pressure on children, parents and teachers alike. The new clause would require schools to engage directly with parents and to co-operate with local NHS authorities in preparing and implementing strategies to head off these risks. I suggest to the Minister that its inclusion would strengthen the Bill and help end the status quo whereby the quality of support available to children and families coping with conditions such as diabetes is largely a matter of chance.
I am mindful of your strictures on time, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I would like to speak in support of amendment No. 43, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland). I am concerned that requiring local authorities to review the continuance of EHC plans for young people aged over 18 with specific regard to their age may make it more likely that support would be curtailed or dropped altogether on the basis that the young person would be deemed to have made the transition into adulthood. This concern is heightened by paragraph 231 of the explanatory notes to the Bill, which explains the thinking behind clause 45. It gives examples of potential stages at which EHC plans can be amended or replaced. These include the end of a specified phase of a young person’s education or when a young person becomes a NEET. This runs contrary to the recommendations made by my Committee in our report, where we acknowledge the particular position of NEETs and apprenticeships and the potential of EHC plans to assist young people with SEN into constructive employment. We recommended that the Bill should provide entitlement to EHC plans both to NEETs of compulsory participation age and to young people who are undertaking apprenticeships.
We heard from Dai Roberts, the principal of Brokenhurst college, who cited the case of two learners with profound deafness who were then on marine engineering apprenticeships. They had to have signers to help them with their training. These are precisely the young people who need extra support in order to follow their ambitions so they can get on and make a success of their lives. The amendment deserves support and clause 45(4) deserves to be scrapped.
My final remarks will be on the local offer. Getting that right will be essential to ensuring that the Bill overall helps young people. I am confident that those who get an EHC plan will be in a better situation than those under the previous regime of statements. In fact, it is essential to ensure not that it is easier to get a plan—the Minister, surprisingly in my view, said he wanted to make that case. I hope that there will be fewer people having plans than under statements, not because there is an effort to guide them away from them, but because local offers meet so many of the needs of parents and young people that there is not a requirement for the bureaucratic involvement that will be required even in our streamlined EHC system.
John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)
It is good to follow the Chair of the Select Committee. I hope the constructive and cross-party description that he has given of the passage of the Bill so far means that, as the Bill goes into the other House, many of the amendments that we have discussed today, which clearly need to be made, will be made.
Before he spoke, we heard two strong—including one long—speeches on special educational needs. I am not going to speak up for children with special educational needs. Instead I would like to speak up for children with specific health conditions and, in particular, to lend my support to new clause 8, which was first tabled in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) and now stands in the name of the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders).
Four years ago, I met an inspiring young woman called Emma Smith. She was 12 years old, from Dalton in Rotherham, and I was her MP. She was on a lobby for Diabetes UK to the House. I met her here, and met her and her family at home. I also met a couple of other young children and students at school in Rotherham who were suffering from diabetes. They described a lack of recognition and appreciation by staff at school of their condition and a lack of knowledge about what they had to do to manage it for themselves. They described a suspicion, sometimes, of the needles they had to use to inject insulin. Occasionally there was nowhere for them to do those injections during the school day. They also spoke of friends of theirs with similar problems who had been forbidden from eating or going to the toilet during lessons when they needed to because of their condition. I pledged my support to Emma Smith and her campaign, as I did to the ten-minute rule Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham), which he introduced around that time. I thought that my hon. Friend could not be here today, which is why I am in his place, but I am glad to see that he has come into the Chamber.
Mark Tami
My right hon. Friend is making a powerful case. Does he agree that it is not just about staff? We need to ensure that children—particularly primary school children, who can be scared if they do not know what is going on—have explained to them why a child has to be treated in a certain way. Children can be frightened and misunderstand what is happening.
John Healey
My good and hon. Friend knows exactly what he is talking about and he is right. This is not simply about staff; it is about other students and pupils understanding better the conditions and health problems that some children have to cope with and, often, being supportive as a result. I know my hon. Friend speaks from direct experience of such things.
Mr Jim Cunningham
My right hon. Friend will recall that, in addition to educating teachers about children’s conditions, one of the things I proposed in my ten-minute rule Bill some years ago was the creation of school clusters, which would involve somebody with medical experience from the national health service as well as teachers. They would perhaps give talks or inspect the facilities every so often to ensure that teachers were adequately trained.
John Healey
I backed my hon. Friend’s Bill and I remember it. Essentially, it aimed to set standards of support that all schools should have in place and, as I recall, to require Ofsted to monitor and inspect whether they were being met.
Finally on the question of whether an amendment is necessary, the framework of legislation and guidance already in place—the “Managing medicines in school” guidance, the Equality Act 2010 or even the Children Act 1989—is often said to be sufficient, but these problems are so widespread for so many children that clearly the system as it stands is not working and something else is necessary.
That brings me to my second point: is the proposed change proportionate? It is simply indefensible to argue that parents should have recourse to invoke the 2010 Act or the 1989 Act to get support for their kids at school. That is disproportionate. New clause 8 does not propose a new policy obligation or new standards for national Government, nor would it require local authorities to act. It would not even require health bodies to act, other than to support schools. What new clause 8 proposes is that a school should have
“a duty to produce and implement a medical conditions policy that defines how it plans to support the needs of children with specified health conditions”—
no more, no less. In other words, schools should have well-judged, proportionate policies, pitched at where the challenge is greatest and the potential gain most important—that is, in the culture, understanding, practice and sympathy found in schools. We are talking about a policy developed in schools, for schools and by schools, with the support of health bodies and local authorities behind them.
I have addressed whether the proposed change is necessary and proportionate, but is it beneficial? It would be beneficial if children could go to school confident in the knowledge that those around them understood their conditions. It would be likely to make managing their conditions easier, allow them to play a much fuller part in the life of the school and fulfil more of their potential, reduce the requirement on parents to give up or reduce their work—and, arguably therefore, to step up their dependence on the state to support their kids in school—and reduce the demands on the NHS, so the proposal is beneficial as well.
Is this change necessary? Yes. Is it proportionate? Yes. Is it beneficial? Yes, and if the Minister continues to resist it, he will have to demonstrate that it is unnecessary, disproportionate and either detrimental or not beneficial. I want our children who have special health conditions to be able to enjoy school to the full, to fulfil their potential and to feel confident that those around them know what to do because they understand their conditions.
Finally, I want to leave the House with the words that I always remember Emma Smith saying to me: “I would feel a lot happier if people at school knew what to do if for any reason I was unable to treat myself.” That seems to be the very least that this House and this legislation should provide.
Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), who summed up what many parents at various lobbies of this place have said over a number of years, not least last week, when children with type 1 diabetes came to Parliament to lobby their Members.
New clause 8 stands in my name and that of other hon. Members and was originally tabled by the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson). It seeks to improve the consideration that schools give to students with long-term conditions, including diabetes, epilepsy, asthma and many less prevalent but equally serious illnesses. We have heard that around 29,000 children in the UK have type 1 diabetes. Through my work as chair of the all-party group on diabetes, I have become painfully aware that, despite great improvements in recent years in care for young people with diabetes, something of a blind spot remains in schools, with staff often unaware of the implications of the disease, let alone able to help children with their condition. This leads to all sorts of problems that are, at root, preventable.
At the centre is the impact on child health. A school environment that does not include basic precautions or simple awareness training can lead to complications arising from diabetes. For example, a child experiencing hyperglycemia is at risk of diabetic ketoacidosis, a potentially fatal complication. More than 3,000 children experience this every year, at significant cost to the health care system and obviously considerable anxiety to parents and families, most tragically in the 2% of cases that result in death. Anything we can do to reduce this prevalence must be imperative.
There are more general problems, however. All too often, schools do not have adequate plans in place to deal with the day-to-day needs of those with long-term conditions. That leads to children being made to feel separate and neglected, leaving them more open to bullying, and can also have a detrimental impact on their education. Diabetes and other long-term conditions should have no impact on a child’s ability to learn—they do not have special educational needs—but if those conditions are not managed appropriately in the classroom, they will impede a child’s education.
Ideally, schools should acknowledge that they are looking after a wide range of pupils with varying needs, and staff should have in place a robust plan that has been agreed with parents and health care professionals to prevent the time-consuming and expensive problems that will be inevitable without this investment in planning. I fully anticipate the Minister saying that it is up to schools to decide how to achieve this, and I agree, but we also have a responsibility at national level to ensure that schools do that, and that parents have the scope to force the reappraisal of a situation if it is found wanting. The plans need to be put in place on an individual basis, however. It is striking that the subject that the public most frequently raise with me, as chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on a condition that affects more than 3 million adults, is the poor level of support offered in schools to the 30,000 children who are also affected by it.
Mr Jim Cunningham
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on tabling the new clause. He will be aware that there are specialist colleges, such as Hereward college in Coventry, that would benefit from his proposals. Further down the road, some of these children will have the confidence to go into further education, and they will particularly benefit from those specialist colleges. In that context, the Government should look again at the cuts to the budgets for those colleges.
Mr Sanders
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that helpful intervention. I also congratulate him on the ten-minute rule Bill on this subject that he introduced a little while ago.
Last week, I attended a diabetes event, and I heard an account from a parent from the north of England that succinctly summed up the experience of all too many parents, wherever they live. Her son was just starting primary school and, in the previous July, the diabetic specialist nurse had visited the school to put a necessary care plan in place. It was clear on the first day of school that the plan was inadequate. According to the parent, it was not worth the paper it was written on, and was certainly not suitable for a four-year-old. Importantly, it stated that the child should test his own blood levels—something he had never done before and something that no one would expect a four-year-old to have to do. The plan also had no guidelines for emergencies.
Despite the parents providing a new plan for the school, the child’s first six months of school were filled with phone calls home and teachers holding his hand throughout the day, even taking him out of the classroom frequently as though he were a ticking time bomb. This caused a massive amount of stress and inconvenience to the parents. Schools need to recognise that, beyond the health condition, these are normal children who need to be treated normally but with sensible and reasonable adjustments and awareness to maintain the normality as much as possible.
Mark Tami
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the so-called special treatment that such children get, involving missing lessons and sometimes taking days off school, can sometimes lead other children to believe that they are different, and that that perception of special treatment can lead to bullying?
Mr Sanders
Indeed; I referred to the danger of bullying earlier. Diabetic children do not need to be taken out of class; they simply need a hygienic environment in which to test their blood sugar levels during the day, and to be allowed to eat in the classroom, or go outside to eat, in order to boost their blood sugar levels. It helps everyone if the staff understand those needs and explain them to other pupils. In that way, the children can learn that many of us will have a medical condition—not necessarily diabetes—at some time in our life. There is a whole spectrum of medical conditions, and treating children who suffer from them separately is worse than providing for them within the mainstream and within the normal school settings. All that is needed is a willingness for schools to put in the effort and to look at best practice while listening to parents. A reminder in the Bill that that is important would go some way towards reassuring tens of thousands of anxious parents.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
Given your previous encouragement for speakers in the debate to be brief, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will try to do so. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders), who has spoken on the specific issue of diabetes in schools. I was contacted only last week by a family in Romsey whose four-year-old son is due to start school in September. They had been told that, should he feel a “hypo” coming on, it would be his responsibility to get himself to the school office, where he could be tested and the appropriate treatment administered.
I commend to the House the work of the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation in encouraging local education authorities to put in place protocols and care plans so that schools can be made aware of the appropriate treatment and teachers can be properly informed about addressing the problem. This is particularly important for those dealing with very young children, for whom needles and testing kits might still be a relatively strange and foreign concept. Older teenagers might have become accustomed to them.
Mr Timpson
I thank my hon. Friends the Members for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) and for Torbay (Mr Sanders) and the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) for the amendments they tabled. I thank in particular the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) for embodying in her approach the very essence of this part of the Bill, in that she has demonstrated a lot of co-operation and constructive consultation and has, I suspect, sometimes strayed into the occasional bit of joint commissioning, which I welcome. I also thank other Members who have spoken in this debate on the SEN provisions. I will do my best to respond to the amendments and the key points that have been made.
Amendments 30, 46, 62 and 66 to 69 and new clause 21 are concerned with arrangements for improving local provision. I hope I will be able to address the concerns that are behind amendment 30—as just raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North—through regulations and the code of practice. Draft regulations under clause 48 would require local authorities to provide information, advice and support in relation to personal budgets, including information about independent organisations. Draft regulations made under clause 36 would require local authorities to provide any support they consider necessary for parents or young people to take part effectively in the education, health and care assessment, and regulations made under clause 30 would require local authorities to include in their local offer sources of information, advice and support for children and young people with special educational needs and their families. The indicative code of practice—which my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon helpfully pointed out was made available in Committee and proved invaluable as a consequence—clarifies that this should include information, advice and support available in relation to personal budgets.
I share the aim of my hon. Friend’s amendment 46, which is to ensure that education and social care provision is sufficient to meet the needs of children and young people with SEN and to promote improvements in that provision, but that should be balanced with the need to retain local decision making; that point seemed to unite the House in the debate we have just had. Local authorities, schools and other services must determine spending on provision for children and young people with special educational needs, taking account of their legal responsibilities. Clause 27(3) would require local authorities to consult a wide range of people and organisations in reviewing provision, including, importantly, children and young people with special educational needs and their parents, but placing a specific legal duty on them to improve special educational and social care provision until everyone consulted agrees it is sufficient would be impractical, as views of different people and groups would inevitably differ. Local authorities will be able to reflect the outcomes of the reviews they undertake under clause 27 in the local offer, which also requires the close involvement of children and young people with special educational needs and their parents in its development and review.
On amendments 66 to 69, I can assure the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West and other hon. Members that the local offer will not be a speculative document. It will set out what the local authority expects will actually be available. The local authority does not have control of all the services set out in the local offer, so it can only set out what it expects to be available. If it can only reflect what is currently available, that will prevent the local offer from setting out, for example, what provision it expects to become available in the near future. This could, for example, include new provision in a school, which parents or young people will want to know about in advance.
On amendment 68, I agree that online communities can be a valuable way to socialise, and perhaps that is especially true for young people with special needs. Only yesterday I had the opportunity to visit Springfield special school in my constituency. The children being educated there were keen to show me first their school’s IT suite, where they had developed some important skills in a number of innovative ways. I agree that online communities have their dangers, and that young people should be equipped to socialise over the internet safely. I repeat the commitment I gave in Committee: I will consider including a reference to online communities in the code, in the context of preparing for adulthood. I do not believe it is necessary to amend the Bill in order to achieve what Members want, but I think what I have said demonstrates the importance of this area both now and in the future.
Amendment 69 concerns minimum standards in the local offer. The key to the success of the local offer in each area will be the transparency of information, and the involvement of local parents, children and young people in developing and reviewing the local offer. Central prescription would stifle the very innovation and responsiveness we want to see the local offer trigger, and stipulating minimum standards for the local offer would weaken local accountability. They would constrain parents’ ability to influence a local authority, which could point to meeting minimum requirements to end further discussion. That is a potential “race to the bottom” that we must avoid; my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon raised that point in Committee. I hope that detail about what will be in the offer and the strength of the processes for agreeing it will reassure Members that such a potentially counter-productive minimum standard is not necessary.
Amendment 62, from my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness, the Chair of the Education Committee, reflects the view expressed by his Committee about the importance of parent carer forums, whose national network I believe I am meeting tomorrow. I share my hon. Friend’s views about the importance of parents helping to shape local policies for supporting children and young people with special educational needs. The indicative SEN code of practice makes clear reference to that and to the value of parent carer forums, but as they are not legally constituted bodies we cannot include them in the list in clause 28 of organisations with which a local authority must consult when carrying out its functions under the Bill.
Provision has been made in clause 27 for local authorities to consult children and young people with special educational needs and parents of children with SEN, along with
“such other persons as the authority thinks appropriate”,
when carrying out their statutory duty to keep their special educational provision and social care provision under review. I am sure that local authorities will want to consult parent carer forums as they carry out that duty, which is reflected in the draft code of practice. The SE7 pathfinder, for example, is working closely with its local parent carer forums to develop the local offer, to ensure that it reflects the needs of children, young people and parents.
Turning to new clause 21, local authorities aim to provide services close to home, and I know how important it is for families for provision to be made locally. However, as has been said, that is not always practical for those who require specialist support that is available only in very few places. Clause 27 requires local authorities to consult children and young people with special educational needs and their parents when they are reviewing their special educational provision and social care provision. Local authorities, clinical commissioning groups and NHS England must develop effective ways of harnessing the views of their local communities, and they will undoubtedly want to engage with Healthwatch organisations, patient representative groups, parent partnerships, parent carer forums and other local voluntary organisations and community groups.
Clause 30 requires local authorities to involve children and young people with special educational needs and their parents in developing and reviewing the local offer. That will ensure a continuing dialogue between local authorities and their partners, including children, young people and families, and keep a focus on the need for local provision. I recently discussed these issues with Scope, which has a good deal of experience in this area, and undertook to consider how the guidance in the SEN code of practice could best encourage the development of services that are responsive to local needs.
Amendments 44, 37 and 39, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon, are all concerned with ensuring an integrated approach to meeting the needs of children and young people. I share the goal of amendment 44—integrated health and social care support—but cannot agree that it is the best way to achieve it. Under the Bill, the support that must be available to the child or young person is that reasonably required by his or her special educational needs.
Local authorities and health commissioners have the power to include other social and health care if they feel it is appropriate. So a child with special educational needs arising from cerebral palsy who needs a wheelchair would have that in their plan. If the child developed an unrelated minor infection, any prescribed medication would not normally be included. Amendment 44 would add unnecessary bureaucracy and hinder pragmatic decision making. I am alive to the case studies that my hon. Friend brought to the House’s attention and will look carefully at them in understanding the consequences of the point he makes. I am happy to continue to discuss that with him, but as things stand I am not convinced that his amendment is necessary.
Amendment 37 seeks a specific duty on authorities to deliver social care provision in EHC plans. As I said in Committee, existing duties in section 17 of the Children Act 1989 provide important protections. I understand concerns that this is a general, not an individual duty, but I fully expect that local authorities will provide care services to meet assessed needs. In the case of disabled children, the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 applies, and once the authority is satisfied it is necessary to provide support and assistance, it is required to do just that. I do not think it right to prioritise, as a matter of course, children with EHC plans over all other children in need, who would then risk being marginalised—I am thinking, for example, of children suffering neglect or abuse.
On amendment 39, I know that my hon. Friend has concerns about clause 21, and my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson), among others, has also raised this issue. Clause 21(5) fulfils an undertaking I gave during pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill that we would maintain existing protections, including case law. The subsection was included to preserve the current position whereby, of course, there is no duty to secure the health provision in plans. Amendment 39 goes further than current case law and would define all social care and health care provision made for a child or young person with SEN as special educational provision, if it was in some way for the purposes of education or training.
Dan Rogerson
The logic throughout what the Minister has set out has been about bringing together providers to offer one point of contact with families and young people affected. If, as the pilots continue and this policy is brought into effect, it emerges that it might be preferable for there to be some kind of unified appeal process, would there be the mechanism to bring that about subsequently through secondary legislation? Alternatively, for that to happen would it need to be in the Bill?
Mr Timpson
My hon. Friend makes a point about the importance to the parents and the young person of having a single point of access into any complaints procedure. That is why we are looking at how there can be a single point of interface for them, providing them with the information and navigation they require to find themselves in the right part of that complaints process. Clearly, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon said, there are tribunal rules in place and there are always practical ways in which we can look at trying to enmesh more clearly together the various strands in the complaints mechanisms. We need to develop that through the pathfinders and, as we hopefully reduce the number of cases that end up in the tribunal system, see whether that has had an effect. We will keep that under close review.
New clause 24, tabled by the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West, was discussed in Committee, following which I wrote clarifying what information was already published. The effect of the new clause would be that details were published by individual case. It would not be appropriate to publish information that could identify details of private cases. Clearly, we want to reduce contention. Publishing information on individual cases is likely to extend the contention beyond the delivery of the tribunal’s judgment.
Information would have to be published on the tribunal service and authorities’ costs, and that raises the question whether information would also have to be published on the relative complexity of cases to justify what may be a proportionate expense. The wish to publish information on the cost to authorities may be based on the misapprehension that authorities usually engage legal representation. The most recent figures show that authorities were legally represented at only 15% of hearings, and in most cases authorities would just be providing information on officer time costs. Publishing seemingly simple information on costs without proper context may well lead to greater confusion, therefore, but I have no doubt that the hon. Lady will want to return to that area in due course.
New clause 8, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay, and amendment 65, tabled by the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), both concern children with health conditions. It is right that every child with a long-term health need is entitled to a high-quality education. Their needs must be identified and addressed promptly, so that they can achieve their full potential. Imposing further statutory duties on schools to ensure that is not necessarily the answer, however.
The right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), in a powerful and passionate speech, demonstrated an acute knowledge of life as a Minister and the response that he was likely receive as to current provision. The Education Act 2002 already places a duty on the governing body of a maintained school to promote the well-being of pupils and, as the right hon. Gentleman said, schools are already under a duty through the Equality Act 2010 not to discriminate against pupils with long-term health problems that have an adverse effect on their ability to carry out their normal day-to-day activities. Nor should we require schools and further education institutions to request an EHC assessment for everyone with epilepsy or a related condition.
In a recent written answer to a parliamentary question, I announced that the “managing medicines” guidance would be issued this year, which will further clarify schools’ responsibilities. I am confident that it will address the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns. However, I take what he said extremely seriously and will look closely at the details of what he and others have proposed. I would be more than happy to discuss these matters with him as we consider how we can improve practice in our schools, some of which is still below the level that we should be seeing. We know from figures cited by my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay that the number of children affected by conditions that require support in school is not small, so every effort needs to be made to improve practice on the ground.
Mr Sanders
The statistics seem to show that while there are provisions in previous legislation that are supposed to work, they are not working for large numbers of children with these medical conditions. That is the point of new clause 8.
Mr Timpson
I understand the intention behind the new clause, but when the raft of legislation directly or indirectly related to the point that my hon. Friend raises is still not bringing about the required support for children in our schools, one wonders whether additional legislation is necessarily the answer. We are seeking to provide the best possible guidance to schools on managing medicines, set against the current legislative framework; and under the new Ofsted inspection of schools, safety is a key feature.
Mr Graham Stuart
I find the Minister’s answer inadequate. It is shameful that successive Governments have gone for so many years with a significant minority of children simply not having their needs met in school. When they have a condition or a flare-up that requires action, they get sent off to hospital, or their parents get called, whereas if the school had trained someone up, it could meet that need. This is not good enough. The Minister has done so much under the Bill; this is another area where there could be an historic, positive settlement coming out of the legislation. It would be a shame if the opportunity were missed.
Mr Timpson
I had been doing so well with my hon. Friend, throughout the day. He is quite right to continue to challenge us, and schools, on this point. The question that has to go back to schools is why some are able to manage medicines effectively and others are not. That suggests to me that there is not necessarily a direct relation to the legislative framework that they are working under, and that it is down to differences in practice and to the school’s commitment to dealing with the issue. As I say, I am not stopping the discussion at this juncture. I am sure that there will be other opportunities for us to explore what more we can do. Reissuing the guidance is an important step, because it will provide very clear advice to schools on how they should approach this important issue. We will follow that up closely, both through Government channels and through Ofsted’s work in its role as inspector.
My hon. Friend tabled amendments to part 3 in respect of children who are home-educated. I know, because we have discussed the issue, that he takes a keen interest in these matters, both as the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on home education and as the Chair of the Select Committee on Education. He recently wrote to the Secretary of State about the Bill’s implications for home educators. He will receive a reply shortly. In the meantime, I reassure him that the Bill will bring benefits to all children and young people with special educational needs, including those who are home-educated. In particular, clause 19 says that in exercising their functions under this part of the Bill, local authorities have to have regard to parents’ views, wishes and feelings, which might, of course, include a wish for home education.
Parents will still have the right to educate their children at home. Where local authorities draw up education, health and care plans that say that home education is right for the child, the local authority will have a duty to arrange the special educational provision set out in the plan, in co-operation with the parents.
Mr Tom Clarke
I was impressed by almost everything that the Minister said until he got to the words, “local authorities have to have regard to”. Does he not feel that that is rather a weak way to challenge local authorities? Is it possible that people will look at that in another place?
Mr Timpson
As to the right hon. Gentleman’s second point, I am sure that they will; that is the beauty of the process that we find ourselves in. We are content that we have the right balance. We also need to be alive to the fact that home-educated children require support—this goes to the earlier point about proportionality and reasonableness—that fits in with their education. Clearly, every child’s needs have to be assessed, and local authorities should have that in mind.
Where a child has a plan that names a school as the appropriate environment in which to receive his or her education, parents will still be able to decide to home-educate; that is an important point. If they do, the local authority must assure itself that the parents are providing an education in accordance with section 7 of the Education Act 1996—that is, a full-time education that is suitable for the child’s age, ability, aptitude and special educational needs. If the local authority is so assured, it will be relieved of its duty to make the special educational provision set out in the plan, just as it is now with regard to statements. However, local authorities will continue to have the power to help parents to make suitable provision in the home by providing support services. To take on the right hon. Gentleman’s point, I would strongly encourage local authorities to consider exercising that power when making decisions about whether the provision being made by parents is suitable.
Mr Graham Stuart
My hon. Friend says that local authorities must assure themselves that parents are delivering the education in accordance with 1996 Act. I do not think that that is the case. They have to act if they have reason to believe that parents are not providing suitable education. They have no such overarching duty to assure themselves that every single home educating parent is doing so. The parent, not the local authority, has primacy in the education of their child. The local education authority acts only if it finds out that there is a problem. It does not have to seek it.
Mr Timpson
I hope that our differentiation is based simply on the semantics of some of the vocabulary that is being used, but clearly we need to have absolute clarity on the role of each agency in the life of a child, whether they are educated within the school sector or at home. I will write to my hon. Friend to ensure that he has chapter and verse on precisely that point.
I come now to amendments 60 and 6l. I understand from my hon. Friend that home educators are concerned that clause 23 will mean that local authorities will have to assess every home educated child to see if they have SEN, which takes us back to the previous Parliament, where we had many of these discussions. I can assure him that this is not the case. Clause 23 sets out which children and young people local authorities are responsible for under this part of the Bill. These will be children and young people who have already been identified by the authority or who have been brought to the authority’s attention as having, or possibly having, SEN. There is not that overarching forensic exercise of trying to locate each child.
Amendment 63 seeks to tie the definition of the suitability of any alternative arrangements that parents make for children with an EHC plan more closely to the definition of parents’ right to home educate as set out in section 7 of the Education Act 1996. However, this is unnecessary as the provision in the amendment is already contained within the phrase “suitable alternative arrangements”, so does not need to be spelled out in this way. Similarly, while I understand the concern that amendment 64 seeks to address, it is not necessary. Where a child has a plan that says that education provided in the home is the right provision for the child, the local authority could only cease the plan when it felt it was no longer necessary to meet the child’s needs, as set out in the legislation.
Where parents take a child out of school to home educate and are making suitable provision, as is the case now with statements, the local authority will be under a duty to review the plan annually to ensure that the provision that the parents are making continues to be suitable. The local authority could cease to maintain the plan only where it was decided it was no longer needed to meet the child’s needs. Moreover, the new duty on commissioning bodies to arrange the health provision in the plan and the greater expectation that the social care provision will be made will mean that parents can expect that these will continue to be provided. There is further scope within the code of practice to provide clarity on these issues for local authorities, and no doubt my hon. Friend will want, through his connections with the home education lobby, to contribute to that consultation, which will be happening later this year.
On amendments 40 to 43, I find myself completely agreeing once again with my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon that some young people with special educational needs require more time to complete the education that other young people have already finished by the age of 18. The Bill rightly enables them to do so, but we want to avoid the expectation that every young person with SEN has an entitlement to education up to 25—a point that I think he accepted in Committee—regardless of whether they are ready to, or have already made, a successful transition into adult life. The Education Committee recommended that we clarify whether there is an entitlement to special education provision up to age 25. The requirement to have regard to age makes it clear that there is not. However, I can categorically assure my hon. Friend that no young person who needs an education, health and care plan to complete or consolidate their learning can be denied one just because they are over 18. Local authorities must rightly consider a range of matters in coming to these important decisions.
Clause 45(3) requires local authorities to consider whether the educational outcomes specified in the plan have been achieved when it is deciding whether it should cease to maintain a plan. The indicative code of practice, at section 6.18, says:
“local authorities must not simply cease to maintain plans once a young person reaches 18”.
They should consider whether young people have met their agreed outcomes, whether continued education will help them achieve those outcomes, and whether the young person wants to stay in education. Of course, in what we hope will be rare instances, a young person may appeal against a decision to cease their plan, a step forward from the current system.
My hon. Friend also tabled amendments 45 and 48. Securing a place at university is a positive outcome for any young person, and we are right to have high aspirations for children and young people with SEN and disabilities. However, it does not follow that higher education institutions must be part of this Bill. Local authorities are not responsible for the education of young people in higher education and it would be unreasonable to hold them accountable for securing special education provision while the young person is there. As my hon. Friend has already noted, the higher education sector has its own very successful system of support in the form of disabled students’ allowance. DSAs are not means-tested, are awarded in addition to the standard package of support and do not have to be repaid. We should not seek to duplicate or replace that system when it appears predominantly to be working well. In the academic year 2010-11, DSA provided 47,400 full-time students with support totalling £109.2 million. The Government also provided £13 million to HEIs in 2012-13 through the disability premium to help them recruit and support disabled students, and in 2013-14 that figure will rise to £15 million.
However, I agree that we must improve the transition to university. Draft regulations require that when a young person is within two years of leaving formal education a review of their EHC plan must set out plans for helping them make a successful transition to adulthood. We will make it clear in the code of practice that good transition planning includes sharing the EHC plan with the university, with the young person’s consent; ensuring that the young person is aware of DSA and has made an early application so that support is in place when their university course begins, on which the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West shared her experience with the Committee; and ensuring continuity of health and care services where those continue to be required by the young person. In addition, we will work with those conducting DSA assessments to ensure that they understand the EHC plans, as well as how they can assist and inform the assessment and ensure that details of DSA are included in the local offer so that all young people thinking of applying to university are aware of the support available to them.
Under proposals in the Care Bill, which is currently in Committee in the other place, 18-year-olds with eligible needs will receive a statutory care and support plan. The new legislation will ensure that there is no gap in provision as young people make the transition from children’s services to adult services and, when they move from one local authority area to another, that the new authority continues to meet their needs until it has undertaken its own assessment.
With regard to amendment 47, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon that all young offenders, including those with SEN, need to receive the right support and access to education, both in custody and when they return to their communities. Since our debate in Committee, I have considered the issue further and remain of the view that clause 69 is necessary, not because we are not committed to supporting young offenders, but because it prevents our legislation from coming into conflict with existing comprehensive statutory provisions governing how education support is delivered in custody, as set out in the Apprenticeship, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon will know that the duties placed on local authorities by that legislation are currently fulfilled through the contracts held by the Education Funding Agency and that local authorities are often not involved. The Ministry of Justice, which funds that arrangement, is clear that the current system is not working, which is why it recently consulted on transformational reforms to how education and support in youth custody should be delivered in future. I have ensured that I have been kept in close contact with Justice Ministers so that the education element for children—not only those with SEN, but others in the care system and elsewhere—is being properly considered as part of the review.
Mr Buckland
Will my hon. Friend undertake to ensure that when the Bill goes to the other place a careful eye is kept on clause 69 and that the Ministry of Justice moves in a way that is properly co-ordinated so that we do not end up with the nightmare scenario of those young people simply falling through the gap?
Mr Timpson
I strongly share my hon. Friend’s view. I want to make progress on that, both in my Department and across Government. The commitment I gave him earlier will continue as the Bill moves on and other work is done by the Ministry of Justice on the consultation it has carried out, because it is important that we make as much progress on that as possible at an important stage of development in many of our institutions and within the secure estate.
Clause 69 also plays an important technical function by disapplying duties with the SEN clauses that it would be impractical to deliver while a young offender is in custody. For those reasons, I do not agree that we can simply remove the clause ahead of the significant reforms to education in custody that the Ministry of Justice is considering and the resulting changes that might need to be made to existing legislation. However, I have sought to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon and hope that provides him with some confidence as we move forward.
Turning to amendments 71 and 72, tabled by the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West, we are continuing to strengthen our understanding of young people’s post-16 educational outcomes. The Department for Education will be publishing destination data on students with SEN at key stage 4 before the summer break, and later in the year for those at key stage 5. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills already publishes data on participation and attainment in further education by students with SEN aged 19 and over, and that will continue. I do not think that it is necessary to place additional reporting requirements on the further education sector when those data are already being made public. However, as I have said previously, I am sure that she will continue to press that point as the Bill moves on to the other place.
On amendments 73 to 75, we will ensure that any code of practice laid before Parliament has been subject to proper consultation and that Parliament is given the opportunity to scrutinise new or updated versions. Clause 67(2) already ensures that the Secretary of State carries out sensible and proper consultation on the code of practice. We intend to publish a draft code of practice on the Department’s website for public consultation in the autumn of this year and to give ample time for comment, over and above the draft that we provided for the purposes of Committee. If we did not consult appropriately, there would be every reason for this House or the other place to resolve not to approve the code.
The Education Committee considered the careful balance between proper consultation and parliamentary scrutiny and keeping the SEN code of practice up to date during pre-legislative scrutiny. The Bill delivers on their recommendation that the draft should be subject to consultation and approved by Parliament using the negative resolution procedure. This brings the code into line with other statutory codes, such as the school admissions code, and enables an appropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny.
This debate has continued the good faith that has been a hallmark of the progress of this part of the Bill. Given what I have said, I hope that hon. Members will feel sufficiently assured not to press their amendments.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 9 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 10
Childcare costs scheme: preparatory expenditure
‘The Commissioners for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs may incur expenditure in preparing for the introduction of a scheme for providing assistance in respect of the costs of childcare.’.—(Elizabeth Truss.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Elizabeth Truss)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 6—Staff to child ratios: Ofsted-registered childminder settings—
‘(1) This section applies to Ofsted-registered childminder settings.
(2) The ratio of staff to children under the age of eight must be no less than one to six, where—
(a) a maximum of three children may be young children;
(b) a maximum of one child is under the age of one.
(3) Any care provided by childminders for older children must not adversely affect the care of children receiving early years provision.
(4) If a childminder can demonstrate to parents, carers and inspectors, that the individual needs of all the children are being met, then in addition to the ratio set out in subsection (2), they may also care for—
(a) babies who are siblings of the children referred to in subsection (2), or
(b) their own baby.
(5) If children aged between four and five years only attend the childminding setting outside of normal school hours or the normal school term time, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children, provided that at no time the ratio of staff to children under the age of eight exceeds one to six.
(6) If a childminder employs an assistant or works with another childminder, each childminder or assistant may care for the number of children permitted by the ratios specified in subsections (2), (4), and (5).
(7) Children may only be left in the sole care of a childminder’s assistant for two hours in a single day.
(8) Childminders must obtain the permission of a child’s parents or carers before that child can be left in the sole care of a childminder’s assistant.
(9) The ratios in subsections (2), (4) and (5) apply to childminders providing overnight care, provided that the children are continuously monitored, which may be through the use of electronic equipment.
(10) For the purposes of this section a child is—
(a) a “young child” up until 1 September following his or her fifth birthday.
(b) an “older child” after the 1 September following his or her fifth birthday.’.
New clause 7—Staff to child ratios: Ofsted-registered non-domestic childcare settings—
‘(1) This section applies to Ofsted-registered, non-domestic childcare settings.
(2) For children aged under two—
(a) the ratio of staff to children must be no less than one to three;
(b) at least one member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification, and must be suitably experienced in working with children under two;
(c) at least half of all other members of staff must hold a full and relevant level 2 qualification;
(d) at least half of all members of staff must have received training in care for babies; and
(e) where there is a dedicated area solely for children under two years old, the member of staff in charge of that area must, in the judgement of their employer, have suitable experience of working with children under two years old.
(3) For children between the ages of two and three—
(a) the ratio of staff to children must be no less than one to four;
(b) at least one member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification, and
(c) at least half of all other members of staff must hold a full and relevant level 2 qualification;
(4) Where there is registered early years provision, which operates between 8 am and 4 pm, and a member of staff with Qualified Teacher status, Early Years Professional status or other full and relevant level 6 qualification is working directly with the children, for children aged three and over—
(a) the ratio of staff to children must be no less than one to 13; and
(b) at least one member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification.
(5) Where there is registered early years provision, which operates outside the hours of 8 am and 4 pm, and between the hours of 8 am and 4 pm, where a member of staff with Qualified Teacher status, Early Years Professional status or other full and relevant level 6 qualification is not working directly with the children, for children aged three and over—
(a) the ratio of staff to children must be no less than one to eight;
(b) at least one member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification, and
(c) at least half of all other staff must hold a full and relevant level 2 qualification;
(6) In independent schools where—
(a) a member of staff with Qualified Teacher status, Early Years Professional status or other full and relevant level 6 qualification;
(b) an instructor; or
(c) a suitably qualified overseas-trained teacher is working directly with the children, for children aged three and over—
(i) for classes where the majority of children will reach the age of five or older within the school year, the ratio of staff to children must be no less than one to 30;
(ii) for all other classes the ratio of staff to children must be no less than one to 13; and
(iii) at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification.
(7) In independent schools where there is—
(a) no member of staff with Qualified Teacher status, Early Years Professional status or other full and relevant level 6 qualification;
(b) no instructor; or
(c) no suitably qualified overseas-trained teacher working directly with the children, for children aged three and over—
(i) the ratio of staff to children must be no less than one to eight;
(ii) at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification, and
(iii) at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 2 qualification.
(8) In maintained nursery schools and nursery classes in maintained schools (except reception classes)—
(a) the ratio of staff to children must be no less than one to 13;
(b) at least one member of staff must be a school teacher as defined by subsection 122(3) [Power to prescribe pay and conditions] of the Education Act 2002 and Schedule 2 to the Education (School Teachers’ Qualifications) (England) Regulations 2003; and
(c) at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification.
(9) The Secretary of State may make provision in statutory guidance to—
(a) define qualifications as “full and relevant”; and
(b) define “suitable experience” for those working with children under two.
(10) If HM Chief Inspector of Education is concerned about the quality of provision or the safety and well-being of children in a setting he may impose different ratios.’.
Amendment 76, in clause 73, page 50, line 16, at beginning insert
‘If, after a consultation period of not less than three months, and the publication of a response to the consultation, the Secretary of State is satisfied with the provisions, he may make an order so that’.
Amendment 77, in page 50, line 29, leave out clause 75.
Government amendment 28.
Elizabeth Truss
I wish to speak to new clause 10, which introduces paving legislation to allow Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to begin to set up tax-free child care, and amendment 28, which is a minor and technical amendment relating to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012.
First, I will comment on new clauses 6 and 7. As the House knows, we have proposals, on which we have consulted, for providers with highly qualified staff to be able to operate more flexible staff-to-child ratios, in line with best practice in leading European countries such as France, Holland and Germany. I highlight the fact that these proposals would be entirely optional for nurseries and are about empowering the front line.
The proposals received support from, among others, Sir Martin Narey, formerly of Barnado’s, and Sir Michael Wilshaw of Ofsted. I firmly believe that these flexibilities would allow nurseries to offer more choice of high-quality child care places to parents, invest additional revenue in attracting the best staff, and reduce costs for parents. However, as I made clear on the media this morning, it has not been possible to reach cross-Government agreement, so we are not proceeding with this reform.
That will not stop me working to make affordable, quality child care available to all. I am absolutely committed to this goal.
Elizabeth Truss
This is a matter of pressing need, and we are taking forward the following proposals: introducing early-years educator and early-years teacher qualifications; introducing tax-free child care; ensuring that more money for child care goes to the front line; increasing the supply of childminders through the establishment of childminder agencies; and making it easier for schools to take two-year-olds in their nurseries.
Elizabeth Truss
The current childcare system is not working for parents. The real cost of child care has risen by 77% in real terms since 2003. Families in England pay some of the highest costs in the world; some spend 27% of net family income on child care. In comparison, parents in France spend just 11% of their income on child care.
Mr Sheerman
I hope that the hon. Lady does not think I am trying to be disruptive. I was enjoying what she said, but I want to get to the heart of it. She said that the Government are not proceeding with the other proposals, which should of course have due consideration. At the moment, child care in this country is too expensive, and very many women find it a great burden to be able to afford it as compared with those in other countries, especially in Europe. Will the proposals that she is left with do something about that?
Elizabeth Truss
I completely agree that we have very high child care costs and I will do everything I can, where we can secure cross-Government agreement, to address that. I want to outline some of our proposals.
Mr Graham Stuart
I think there is merit in the work my hon. Friend has done and I pay tribute to her for the effort and energy she has put into it. I am disappointed that it has been brought to a halt. Will she confirm that the Deputy Prime Minister agreed to the proposals initially, only to renege on that agreement later?
Elizabeth Truss
I thank my hon. Friend for his point. It is true that the reason we are not proceeding with the proposals is that we have failed to secure cross-Government agreement.
As I have said, the current child care system is not working for parents and the costs are very high.
Mr Stuart
May I confirm my understanding that the Deputy Prime Minister signed up to this but later, for political or other reasons—who knows?—withdrew his support? That is shameful and it could lead to less flexibility in a child care system that lacks quality and is too expensive.
Elizabeth Truss
I thank my hon. Friend for his point. Other countries in Europe have flexibility and lower costs for child care. We are seeking to replicate some of their other reforms, and that is what I want to address.
One of the issues is that the UK has some of the lowest staff salaries in Europe. Child care workers here earn £6.60 an hour on average, which is barely above the minimum wage. Annual earnings are £13,000, which is well below the averages of £16,000 in France, £20,000 in Denmark and £22,000 in Sweden. We must reform the supply and funding of child care. If we do not, it will remain expensive and parents will struggle to combine work and family or find themselves cobbling together care, which is difficult and inconvenient. I know of some families where parents work alternating shifts to cover their care responsibilities. I want those families to have good alternatives.
Dual-income families are now the norm across the developed world because of our changing society and economy. In Britain, two thirds of mothers go out to work and many fathers also seek to combine family and work life. If we want parents to have good choices, we have to get better value for money for the £5 billion that the Government spend. International comparisons show that we spend the same proportion of GDP on public support for child care and early years as France and more than Germany, yet, as I have said, parents here pay double the cost that parents pay in countries such as France and Germany, and I do not think that that is right.
Mr Sheerman
I would be the last person to volunteer to defend the leader of the Liberal Democrats, but perhaps he was not sure about the overall, holistic analysis of what is going wrong. We pay more, it costs more and early-years carers are paid rubbish salaries, while many settings do not have a graduate in employment, which always lifts the quality. What is the reason for that? There must be one. What do the advisers and researchers suggest?
Elizabeth Truss
There are, of course, various reasons, many of which relate to the history of how child care systems have developed in different countries. France, for example, has a long tradition of the école maternelle, which involves structured, teacher-led learning from an early age. That has been shown to improve outcomes for children, particularly those from the lowest income backgrounds. Our reforms seek to make sure that high quality, highly qualified professionals go into early years, and to try to adjust the differential between early years and primary school salaries. I will come on to that later.
Parents need to know that they can access high-quality care. The research is clear: high-quality early learning experiences boost children’s attainment throughout their education. There are many excellent nurseries that provide stimulating, structured learning opportunities for young children, which help them to prepare for school. However, there is much more to do.
Anyone who works with children needs a wide range of qualities, not all of which can be quantified by degrees or diplomas. However, that does not undermine the case for greater skills and better qualifications. In future, there will be two qualified roles: early years educator and early years teacher. Graduate leaders are already having a positive impact. Almost 12,000 early years professionals are trained to deliver high-quality early education and care for pre-school children. Building on that legacy, early years teachers will be specialists in early childhood development who are trained to work with babies and young children. We want to see more crossover between teachers in primary and early years so that there is a continuum of education, rather than two separate silos.
The training programme for early years teachers begins this September. Trainees will have to meet the same requirements as primary school trainee teachers. They must have a degree and will need to pass the English and maths tests. The National College for Teaching and Leadership has consulted on the new teacher standards for early years, which will be published in July.
We are extending the reach of Teach First, which has been successful in bringing talented new people into schools. From this September, it will include teaching three and four-year-olds for the first time. Teach First attracts some of the most talented and ambitious graduates in the country, many of whom might not otherwise have considered working with young children. They can make a big contribution, especially in areas of disadvantage.
We also want to raise the standards of practitioners who do not have degrees. Early years educators will be qualified at level 3. Early education qualifications have been far too diffuse and lacking in rigour, and there are hundreds of existing and historical early years qualifications. We are addressing that failure. The National College for Teaching and Leadership has consulted on new criteria for level 3 qualifications and will publish them shortly. Using those criteria, awarding organisations will develop high-quality qualifications to be introduced in September 2014. The minimum entry standard for the qualifications will be grade C at GCSE in English and maths.
Apprenticeships will offer a high-quality route to becoming an early years educator. They will last 20 months on average and combine employment with study towards recognised qualifications through various routes, including further education colleges.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
Will the new qualifications, particularly those for early years educators, include training in early infant brain development and the crucial importance for childhood development of a secure early bond?
Elizabeth Truss
I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. The new qualifications will include the study of early brain development and attachment theory to ensure that early years educators and teachers are up to date with the latest research and practice when they go into the profession fully.
We have just announced a £2 million apprenticeship bursary scheme for apprentice early years educators. Up to 1,000 bursary places will be available to people who aspire to a career in early education. Each bursary will be worth £1,500 and an additional £300 will be available for further training. I am encouraged by the view of David Pomfret, the principal of the college of West Anglia, that the bursaries will make it easier for people to begin a career in early education. The college has seen more people taking up such courses in recent years and we want to encourage more young people into this important profession.
In addition to improving the supply of early years educators and teachers into child care, we are reforming child care funding. The tax-free child care scheme will provide 2.5 million families with financial support towards their formal child care costs. That is an expansion on the current system and, in the majority of cases, will provide a more generous amount.
Unfortunately, under the current employer-supported child care voucher scheme, which was introduced by the previous Government, the question of who receives support is arbitrary. It is also highly inefficient, with 33% of the total amount being spent on overheads. At present, only 5% of employers offer employer-supported child care, and only a fifth of employees are eligible for it. Those who are self-employed do not have access to it, and whether a parent can or cannot get it is a lottery. Strangely, as more than one parent can claim employer-supported child care, in some cases there are two claimants for one child. That means that the costs for one child could be covered more than for a single parent with several children, and that is neither a sensible nor fair way to continue.
Our new tax-free child care scheme will resolve those anomalies. It will be available to any working family, except where one or both earners pay the additional rate of income tax. It will be on a per-child basis and include the self-employed and those on the national minimum wage. Tax-free child care means that around 2.5 million families will now have access to support. That support will be worth the same as the basic rate of income tax at 20% of costs, making child care costs effectively tax free. It will mean that the average family with two children will receive up to £2,400 each year. Those on lower incomes will continue to have 70% of their child care costs paid through tax credits and, in future, universal credit, and there will be an additional £200 million to help those in receipt of universal credit ensure that work always pays.
We are not introducing the tax-free child care scheme now. The Government have been in discussions with interested parties since the announcement of the scheme, and will launch a formal consultation document shortly. The consultation will last 12 weeks, and the Government will proactively engage with those affected by the changes to discuss the issues. New clause 10 has been tabled to enable HMRC to start developing the scheme. Although we will consult in full on its details, the basic tenets have been set out. To ensure that the scheme is in operation by the autumn 2015 target, work on its foundations must commence now.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend for providing information on the tax-free child care system. Will that replace all forms of child care currently in the market? I am thinking particularly of employee benefits for those who receive child care as a benefit through the taxation of companies.
Elizabeth Truss
I thank my hon. Friend for his question and HMRC will consider that issue in its new consultation on this subject.
Much of the work required is based on IT development because we want all parents to be able to access the service online. As with paving legislation before it, the new clause will enable officials to start high-level discussions on IT and other development, and such discussions could not take place without the new clause. The provision will not affect HMRC’s current operations or impede the development or scrutiny of the tax-free child care scheme, and there is no immediate cost of the scheme that must be funded.
This is a short and self-explanatory new clause that merely allows the Government to begin preliminary work ahead of the final design of the tax-free child care scheme. The Bill is similar to those used by previous Governments, and takes no greater powers than in those cases. Furthermore, the Government are clear that any changes required in primary legislation will receive appropriate scrutiny. The new clause is minor and technical in nature, and I look for support across the House to enable HMRC to start working on one of the Government’s priorities.
In addition to reforming child care funding we must also increase the supply of quality child care. The number of childminders has almost halved over the past 15 years, limiting parental choice in a flexible affordable form of child care. Many parents want home-based care, especially in a child’s youngest years—I know my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) is a great advocate of that. The Bill enables the introduction of childminder agencies, which I believe will help to increase the number of childminders in the market by removing barriers to entry and offering an alternative to working completely independently. Agencies will drive up quality—they will be required to support the training and development of childminders—and make it easier for parents to access childminders and be assured of high-quality and flexible provision.
Andrea Leadsom
Will children’s centres be encouraged to become childminder agencies? That would link two of the most critical structures available to support parents. Childminders often believe they do not have access to training or to the camaraderie of others in their field, so that could be a perfect combination.
Elizabeth Truss
I agree with my hon. Friend and will mention the types of organisations that could be involved in childminder agencies in due course.
Mrs Hodgson
I rise to speak to new clauses 6 and 7 and amendments 76 and 77 in my name and in the name of my hon. Friends. Notwithstanding the welcome announcement the Minister has just made on behalf of the Government—at last, I might add—we still wish to proceed with the new clauses as their premise and purpose are still valid.
The Government have got themselves into a complete shambles. With every passing week, it becomes more and more apparent that Ministers do not have a credible plan to tackle the child care crisis they have created. Under this Government, parents are facing a triple whammy: costs are rising faster than wages and even general inflation, with the average cost having risen by almost 20% since 2010; support from the Government for those on tax credits has been cut, meaning that some families are up to £1,500 a year worse off; and there is a real struggle to find places in some areas owing to the cuts in supply-side subsidies and direct provision, such as through children’s centres. Since the election, we have lost almost 900 nurseries and more than 1,500 child minders, and there are 500 fewer Sure Start children’s centres.
It is no wonder, therefore, that the Prime Minister panicked and plucked the Children’s Minister from the Back Benches to implement her ideas without even bothering to check whether they were any good. The main idea to come out of “More great childcare”—increasing the number of children each adult can look after—is the worst one, and we are pleased to hear that it has been dropped. The Minister has been told categorically, most notably by advisers commissioned by her own Department, that it was not a good idea from the start, yet still she persisted with it.
If you will allow me, Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to place on record what those advisers said. Eva Lloyd from the university of East London was commissioned, along with Professor Helen Penn, by the Department to advise on child care practice from around the world, but her report is still being sat on seven months later. She said:
“The ratio relaxation is unlikely to reduce child care costs, but may well drive down child care quality.”
Professor Cathy Nutbrown, whose excellent report on qualifications in the sector was manipulated by the Government to argue for relaxing ratios, said:
“Current proposals will shake the foundation of quality provision for young children. Watering down ratios regardless of the level of qualifications held by staff, is likely to lead to worse, not ‘great’ childcare, and will undermine intentions to provide quality early learning experiences.”
You might be forgiven for thinking, Mr Deputy Speaker, that child care providers, who in purely economic terms could stand to benefit from these plans, would back them. Well, here is what some of the leading representatives of child care providers have to say.
Neil Leitch from the Pre-School Learning Alliance, whose survey of members found that 94% did not believe they could maintain the quality of their current level of provision if staffing levels were reduced, said:
“We are absolutely appalled by this fixation to alter ratios… This is a recipe for disaster.”
In a separate release last week, he said:
“There is no doubt that relaxing ratios would have lowered the overall quality of childcare in this country. Not only would children have received less one-to-one support from childcare workers, but their well-being would also have been put at serious risk.”
Alison Seabeck
My hon. Friend is highlighting all the reasons the proposal should not have gone forward, but it seems that it ended up as an internal argument on the Government Benches, rather than being based on the opinion of experts.
Mrs Hodgson
We would rather the Minister had come to the House sooner with a proper statement. In the time available this afternoon, that will not be possible, and obviously the House is not as well attended as it would have been for a statement. It is disappointing, then, that the announcement was not made in a statement to a full House in the usual way.
Craig Whittaker
I fully understand what the hon. Lady is trying to achieve, but are these professionals and new clauses trying to say that the professionals in the sector are not professional or good enough to decide themselves what ratios they deem to be safe, rather than what she deems to be safe?
Mrs Hodgson
No. I will tell the hon. Gentleman what more of the professionals have said, however, and then perhaps he will think on the strangeness of his intervention.
Purnima Tanuku of the National Day Nurseries Association said:
“At the moment there is an option that nurseries can operate a 1:13 ratio for over threes, if a person with a Level Six (degree level) qualification is working directly with the children. However, few nurseries take up this option, largely because it is not practical for one person to meet the needs of 13 children doing the type of activities most nurseries offer.”
That was echoed by private nurseries and managers I have met across the country. They suggested that it can often be a struggle providing quality care when operating at the current ratios. Finally, I will quote June O’Sullivan, chief executive of the London Early Years Foundation, which runs the nursery in the House of Commons:
“It beggars belief that a junior Minister can wreak havoc on a sector that has explained the negative consequences of her actions.”
Obviously the junior Minister has at last come to the House and ditched her plans, which I am sure all the people I have quoted will be pleased to hear. Most important, though, parents will be most pleased to hear today’s announcement.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
I too welcome this U-turn by the Government today, but I welcome all the more my hon. Friend’s new clauses. Parents in my constituency are actually worried about the safety of their children under the Government’s proposals and are taking that anxiety to work. Some were even considering giving up work, if it had been introduced, which would not have done our economy any good. Would support for the new clauses in fact do our economy good and remove that anxiety from parents?
Mrs Hodgson
I agree, which is why we are proceeding with the new clauses: we need to ensure that parents will never again face such a threat from a Minister who just brings forward a mad idea out of the blue, against all the evidence and without any support from anyone—whether professional, parent or expert—in the country.
Both Mumsnet and Netmums have officially backed the Rewind on Ratios campaign, following widespread anger among parents—anger that the Minister felt the full force of when she did a web chat on Mumsnet in February. A recent survey of parents by Bounty found that 80% would not back the changes, even if they led to significantly cheaper child care bills. Of course, that is a big if.
The Department has argued—the Minister did so again in her opening remarks—that the measure could cut costs. The modelling information that the Department was forced to reveal said that it could cut costs by up to 28%, but the modelling done to arrive at that figure was branded by providers as a “work of fiction”. The modelling made wildly unrealistic assumptions of 100% occupancy for 52 weeks of the year, which no nursery ever has—speak to the nurseries and they will say that. It did not account for any breaks, training sickness or holidays for any of the staff. In one model—the one that said that it would save parents up to 28%—staff would not even have been paid any more money, which was supposed to be the whole point of these reforms, as the Minister again said in her opening remarks.
Alison Seabeck
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way again but this issue is really important. No consideration seems to have been given to the need to change premises, for example. My granddaughter was in a three-storey property, with babies, largely, at the top. The number of children in care on that floor could not be increased without something significant being done to the building. I do not think that any of those additional costs were considered.
Mrs Hodgson
My hon. Friend makes a very valid point that has been raised with me many times. I know that the Secretary of State is getting a reputation for sloppy research, and I feel that this is another case of policy-based evidence from his Department.
Then, last week, we thought that common sense had prevailed and the plans had been ditched. In fact, the Deputy Prime Minister said as much. In his briefing note to journalists, he set out in black and white the complete lack of support and credible evidence that the Department for Education had for these reforms. This was a cause of great relief for the tens of thousands of parents and childcare professionals who were rightly appalled by the lack of consideration of the needs of young children in these plans. Indeed, given how out of touch with childcare practice in England the Minister appears to be, it is little wonder that, according to her own Department, she has visited just five English nurseries in an official capacity since getting the job, compared with seven settings in France.
I am not sure what those French nurseries were like, but the Minister regularly cites them as exemplars. I am sure she will have seen that the chief executive of the Pre-school Learning Alliance, Neil Leitch, commented last week on his visit to France. He highlighted staff not having the time to identify and support children with special educational needs, nursery age children having scheduled toilet breaks and long afternoon naps, and children being made to sit still at desks for so long that tennis balls had to be fixed to their chair legs so that they did not make a noise when they fidgeted. This is not what anyone with an understanding of child development—[Interruption] He has photographs. They are available on the internet. The Minister is disputing what I am saying. She can look up the pictures, and I am sure that Neil Leitch would be more than happy to meet her to discuss what he saw in France.
This is not what anyone with an understanding of child development would describe as high-quality early education. When we consider how stubbornly the Minister has refused to listen to those experts and child care bodies who repeatedly told her that that is what her plans would mean, it is unsurprising that she has met with the tiny number of organisations who support her many more times than the major sector representatives who disagree.
Craig Whittaker
In view of the fact that the hon. Lady thought my last intervention a little strange, let me put it in a different way. Is she saying that the French system is much more expensive, or does it have higher ratios and so is much more unsafe than our system?
Mrs Hodgson
Yes, the French system is of a lower quality. That comes out in the OECD ratings of its nurseries, which are lower than those of the British system. When people meet French nursery providers, they are often asked about our system. French nursery providers look to emulate our model and cannot understand why we look to emulate their systems. [Interruption.] That is what we are told, but again, I am more than happy to hear evidence to the contrary.
Within 24 hours of the Deputy Prime Minister saying that the policy was dead in the water, both the Leader of the House and the Prime Minister’s spokesperson denied that a decision had been taken. The Department for Education said absolutely nothing for six days. We had to wait six days for a Minister to come to the House and make a formal announcement confirming that the plans are indeed dead in the water. We were grateful to hear that at long last, even though we will not have time to discuss it in detail this afternoon.
Even though the Minister has said today that the plans have been shelved, I do not have confidence that we have seen the last of them. After all, the Government are struggling to meet their target to provide free child care for the 20% most disadvantaged two-year-olds. With just three months before the policy is due to be introduced, a freedom of information survey that I have conducted shows that only 60% of councils have the capacity to provide the places, probably for some of the reasons cited a moment ago by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck), who is no longer in her place. The temptation for the Government just to click their fingers and increase the number of two-year-olds that each worker can care for must be great. We should be clear: all they would have to do is change statutory guidance, meaning that Parliament would have no say.
In proposing the new clauses in this group, the Opposition are giving this House a say. We have an opportunity to nip any such future reforms in the bud. We have an opportunity to send the strongest possible message to Ministers that this House has listened to the tens of thousands of parents and professionals who have been campaigning against these changes, not to mention the Department’s own experts, and to say that we will not risk the safety of children in child care settings or the quality of the early learning and development they receive by allowing any such plans to go through unchallenged.
Elizabeth Truss
Does that mean that the hon. Lady thinks it was wrong for the previous Government to increase ratios for three and four-year-olds in 2008?
Mrs Hodgson
I was not in the Department or in position in 2008, but if we raised ratios, I am sure it was done after full consultation and with the support and backing of child care professionals, which is the exact opposite to now. That is the key difference, and I am sure that people out there listening to this debate will know whether that is true and whether that case is a fair comparison.
I sincerely hope that today the Deputy Prime Minister will put his MPs where his mouth is and lead his Liberal Democrat Members into the Aye Lobby with Labour when we seek the opinion of the House on these new clauses shortly, to ensure that in future no Secretary of State can force through, against the will of the House, changes such as those that the Minister has now dropped.
Amendment 76 would require the Government to take the novel step of consulting on the formation of childminder agencies before they legislate to create them. I hope that Ministers will learn the lessons from the furore over ratios. I should say from the outset that I do not have a dogmatic objection to childminder agencies, particularly if they are voluntary. What the Government say they want to achieve through such agencies is all very sensible: greater co-operation and peer support for childminders, as well as access to training and help with gaining bursaries. Childminder agencies will also be a single point of contact for parents who might need a mix of child care solutions. These are all good things that make for a vibrant childminder sector, and are all things that local authority childminder networks and family information services should be providing at the moment. That some of them are not is perhaps down to the devastating cuts to the grant that local authorities previously received from the Department for Education to pay for them.
Since the publication of this Bill, the Department has been consulting on removing many of those duties from local authorities—such as providing training and quality improvement support—and this on top of the attempt in clause 75 to remove the duty to publish child care sufficiency reports, which our amendment 77 would block. All this seems to be a clear sign that the Government want local authorities almost completely removed from the child care equation and that agencies are therefore the preferred configuration for childminders.
Given that the Minister has said that there will be no direct funding from the Government for agencies to provide those services, the implication is that there will be a cost to the childminder. That cost will in turn have to be passed on to the parents, because most childminders do not earn the sort of money that would allow them to soak up the kind of membership fee or commission that we might expect an agency to demand. The most recent childcare costs survey from the Daycare Trust found that childminder fees were already increasing by an average of more than 5%, year on year.
Of course, as all the parent surveys tell us, cost is a secondary issue to quality, and it is the end of individual inspections by Ofsted that is the most worrying reform. Parents really value the fact that their childminder has proved their effectiveness to Ofsted. A National Childminding Association survey last year found that 80% of parents thought that individual inspections were important, and that 75% might not choose a childminder without the reassurance of an individual inspection. Childminders value the inspections too: 80% felt that moving to an agency model of inspection would have a detrimental effect on their professionalism, and they are obviously concerned that this would put parents off using them as well.
Of course we want more childminders to set up—as I said earlier, we have seen the number drop by more than 1,500 since the election—but we should not be trying to achieve that by passing legislation that has the potential fundamentally to change the market, without first consulting on it and establishing consensus. I would therefore welcome assurances from the Minister that the Government will set up such a consultation before the Bill completes its passage through the other place.
Dan Rogerson
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), as it enables me to clarify these matters from the perspective of the Liberal Democrat Benches. It was also good to see the Chair of the Education Committee, the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), back in the Chamber, although he is no longer in his place. He led the charge on many of these issues, although I suspect that he might have been getting a bit of gyp from the old leg, as he seemed uncharacteristically bad tempered.
I shall address my remarks to the new clauses and amendments in this group, as you would expect me to do, Mr Deputy Speaker. I pay tribute to the Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) for the way in which she has gone into battle over the use of the taxation system to support the provision of child care. She has come up with a whole package of measures, which we will explore in the course of the debate, and it is a great achievement to have secured some cash from the Treasury. I know that colleagues in my party support her in this. She has gone out there and done this, and I pay tribute to her for her achievement. New clause 10, in putting down this marker in the Bill, represents an important step forward in showing the Government’s commitment to supporting parents who want access to good quality child care in order to allow them to go out to work, and to bring up their families in the way they aspire to.
The hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West talked about the rising cost of child care, but she could have turned the clock back a bit further to when the previous Government were in power, because those costs rose hugely on their watch as well. This is nothing new; it is a trend that has been going on for some time. I therefore welcome the proposal to set out a framework for investing more public money in supporting the cost of child care for families who need it.
New clauses 6 and 7, tabled by the hon. Lady, cover an issue that has, as the Minister said, been settled for the time being. This Government now have no plans to alter the ratios. They consulted on the proposal, and those who responded to the consultation were fairly overwhelmingly against it. The Government have responded to that. The Minister clearly believes that there is a case to be made for such an alteration, however, and she will continue to make that case in the run-up to the general election if that remains Conservative party policy, but it is not the policy of the coalition Government to introduce such changes now.
That debate will no doubt continue, but I welcome the fact that, on the basis of the consultation, the Government have chosen not to go ahead with the changes. In today’s statement to the House on GCSE reform, the Chair of the Select Committee praised the Secretary of State for listening to the results of that consultation and being persuaded to take a different tack on some aspects of exam reform. The Secretary of State did it in that case, and the Government have also done it in this case. We should not criticise them for that; listening and taking action based on a consultation is the purpose of a consultation. The debate will continue and we will see whether a further case can be made. For the time being, that does not seem to have been the case. It is not only the sector that was concerned about this; parents were, too. If those two important groups are expressing concern, it is very difficult to move ahead with the policy.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
On new clause 10, the Minister made great play of introducing tax-free child care, but she should be clearer in her closing remarks about what exactly that means, as I fear she is misdescribing something. What she seems to be proposing is that after people have passed through many hoops, including having both parents working and receiving certain levels of income, 20% is paid, which is not tax-free for the higher rate taxpayer. I want her to clarify this point: she talked about those paying additional tax not qualifying, so will she explain what tax threshold this will and will not apply to, so people who might be affected can know about that?
Amazingly, this scheme has managed to unite The Daily Telegraph and the Labour party in criticism. That is some achievement, and I applaud the Minister on it, but it shows that there is a degree of muddle. The scheme is for couples or single parents where both work, but there are many other questions about it—I look forward to the regulations being laid so we can get to the details. What about where one partner was working but is unemployed or sick and unable to work, perhaps for a long period, or is retired, which is not beyond the bounds of possibility? Does the Minister have any plans to extend this as a general policy to parents of over-fives? A chef in my constituency on £15,000 or so a year raised with me the challenges of getting child care out of hours, a situation faced by many people, both with over-fives and with under-fives. I hope that she will give us some indication of her thinking on this matter. Will she tell us when she is planning to lay regulations on this issue, so that we can all be alert in order to tackle that?
On new clauses 6 and 7, I will be generous to the Minister. She said that the fact that she has lost support—perhaps could not corral support across Whitehall—is not stopping her push for “affordable, quality child care available to all.” On that last sentence she and I are united as one, but, sadly, I disagree with her approach. If that really was what was being proposed, I would be a greater supporter of hers, but I am concerned about misrepresentation: little ideas presented as big solutions. We need a longer-term vision about child care provision for our under-fives and our older children, and we must ensure that we see that as an investment in those young people and, in particular, in women, in enabling them to work. However, this is not the time to get into that debate.
On childminder agencies, I am not going to get into the issue about ratios, because my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) raised it very effectively. The proposal was never popular. I was even stopped in the street about it in my constituency by parents and carers who were very concerned about it—it was that much of a worry. I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) said about that worry being something that Ministers need to think about when proposing ideas that have not been agreed properly within their own Government, let alone anywhere else.
I have some concerns about the proposals on agencies for childminders, and I have referred to the parallel with older people’s care, where private agencies came in and reduced the quality of care. That is a legacy of the late Lady Thatcher’s years in government and it has not improved in all that time. I do not want private companies to come in, cream off a profit and cut the income of the childminders, who, in my area, consider themselves as small businesses. The number of childminders has reduced because a lot were on the list for local authorities but were not active, so as soon as that list was tidied up they dropped off it. A number of those to whom that happened were poor quality and did not want to have the scrutiny of Ofsted or any other authority, because they were the “pile ’em high, stack ’em cheap” sort of childminder that the Minister seems to favour.
Hackney childminders, a very professional group, are united about the achievements that they have personally brought about and the benefits for young people in my area, and about the fact that the bad childminders have been run out of town. We do not want to go back to those bad old days. I am a mother of three and I know that I can stand here in the House now only because of my excellent child care. Over the years it has not always been so good, but there are times when one really worries, and one cannot work while worrying about children not being in a safe place.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend speaks passionately about childminders in Hackney. The Northamptonshire Childminding Association was also clear that it thought that this proposal would reduce quality and increase cost, so that experience is consistent with hers.
Meg Hillier
That is my worry. What exactly is an “agency”? We hear one description from bits of government and other descriptions from some of the organisations outside, including Ofsted. If the Minister is saying, as she has indicated, that some part of this move is about sharing professional experience and providing support to professional colleagues, I can tell her that my childminder network in Hackney does that very effectively in any case, so does it count as an agency? I have suggested that it thinks about setting one up. If it was to work in collaboration with the local authority or with the local Sure Start centres in smaller areas, would it then count as an agency? In the attempts to trial some of the elements, is the Minister being prescriptive or is she allowing 1,000 flowers to bloom? If it is the latter, what is to prevent the bad, rapacious private agencies from coming in, taking over, dominating in an area and becoming a local monopoly? There is a real concern about that. Will childminders have to join? The position on that is unclear, so perhaps she will give us some information on it. There is some benefit to professional experience sharing and professional support, but not at the costs that I have outlined. Will the Minister tell the House the timetable for the regulations, which she said would be coming very soon?
I will leave my comments there, but this is an important issue. My constituency is one of the youngest in the country; over a fifth of residents are under 16. I think I speak with some authority on their behalf. For them, the Bill, and these changes, make a very big difference.
Elizabeth Truss
We have had a wide-ranging debate on the various child care issues, but one point that I think we can all agree on is that there is an urgent need for high-quality, affordable child care in this country. At the moment, many working families are struggling to afford their child care, and I can assure the House that the Government are fully committed to improving the situation. Tax-free child care, which is the key policy that we have been promoting in the Bill, will contribute to that.
I would particularly like to thank the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) for his very constructive comments, particularly on the point about our tax-free child care scheme. I want to reassure the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) that “tax-free” refers to the 20% that parents will benefit by. The critical point is that it is open to many more families.
I understand the hon. Members want to move on to the next debate so, without further ado, I shall finish.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 10 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 3
Regulation of child performance
‘(1) In section 37 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1963 (Restriction on persons under 16 taking part in public performances, etc.) the words “under the compulsory school leaving age” shall be inserted after the word “child” in subsection (1).
(2) After subsection (2) there shall be inserted—
“(2A) In this section, “Performance” means the planned participation by a child aged under the compulsory school leaving age in a public entertainment production, unless that participation—
(a) involves risks that are no greater than the risks faced by that child in the ordinary course of his life and does not require the child to be absent from school or requires an absence from school of not more than four days in a six month period and such absence is authorised by the school;
(b) involves the child doing that which he would do in any event in the ordinary course of his life; or
(c) involves the creation of audio-visual content where there is an overriding public interest in the child’s participation.”.
(3) Subsection (3)(a) of that section shall be repealed.
(4) After subsection (5) of that section there shall be inserted—
“(5A) Regulations under this section shall provide for the local authority to give reasons for any refusal of a licence under this section and shall specify any mitigating action which would be required to allow a licence to be issued.
(5B) A refusal of a local authority to grant a licence may be reversed on appeal.”.
(5) Subsection (6) of that section shall be repealed.
(6) After subsection (7) the following shall be inserted—
“(7A) A licence granted by a local authority shall be transferrable to another local authority if the child moves residence from one local authority area to another.”.
(7) Section 38 of the Act (Restriction on licences for performances by children under 14) shall be repealed.
(8) After section 39 of the Act, there shall be inserted—
“39A Presumption that a licence should be issued
(1) There shall be a presumption that a licence shall be issued unless there is identifiable potential harm that cannot be mitigated by any other action.
(2) For the purposes of this section—
(a) “identifiable potential harm” shall be any outcome that acts adversely against the wellbeing of the child;
(b) “mitigated” shall mean such reasonable action that secures the safety of the child from the impact on their wellbeing; and
(c) “wellbeing” includes the physical, mental and emotional condition and interests of the child.
39B Guidance
‘(1) The Secretary of State shall issue guidance to local authorities on the criteria for issuing licences and the conditions which shall apply to them; and this guidance may make different provision for children falling within different age bands applicable to their development age.
(2) Guidance shall include a requirement for the local authority’s decision to be based on an assessment of the risks involved in the child’s participation in the performance.
(3) Guidance shall include the safeguarding arrangements which shall be made in regard to participation in sporting activities; and in drawing up this guidance the Secretary of State shall consult sports governing bodies.
(4) Guidance shall require the local authority, in considering the terms on which a licence is issued, to have regard to the number of days actually worked spread across a particular period.
(5) Guidance shall require local authorities to provide for on-line applications for licences, to deal with all licences in time if submitted at least 10 days before they are to come into effect, or five days in respect of a repeated application.
(6) Guidance shall provide for local authorities to inspect sites where children taking part in performances are to be accommodated, if they will be residing alongside unconnected adults.
(7) Guidance shall provide for local authorities to disregard absence in connection with licensed performances in school records for authorised absences.
(8) Guidance shall provide that local authorities shall require that matrons or chaperones shall operate under standards accepted by the appropriate advisory bodies.
(9) Guidance shall also include the circumstances in which it is appropriate to authorise a body of persons to organise a performance for which licences will not be required by virtue of section 37(3)(b) of this Act, including where the performers are of 13 years or upwards or if the body is an amateur body and has a nominated child protection person who has received appropriate training and is independent of the chaperone.
(10) Guidance under this section shall be laid before Parliament and shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament as if it were contained in a statutory instrument subject to such annulment.”.
(9) Clause 42 of the Act (Licences for children and young persons performing abroad) shall be amended by inserting after subsection (1)—
“(1A) Licences under section 25 of the principal Act in relation to performances as defined under this Act shall be issued by local authorities rather than as specified in the principal Act.”.
(10) In subsection (2) of that section the words after the word “granted” shall be replaced by the words “regardless of the age of the child”.
(11) In the Children (Performances) Regulations 1968 (SI 1968/1728)—
(a) In Regulation 8 (Medical examinations) in paragraph (2), the words “performance taking place within a period of six months from the date of the said medical examination” shall be replaced by the words “later performance”.
(b) At the end of Regulation 10 (Education) there shall be inserted—
“(6) The child’s parents or guardians must inform the child’s school of any days on which the child will be absent by reason of taking part in performances.”.
(c) In Regulation 12(3) (maximum number of other children a matron shall have charge of), “eleven” shall be replaced by “nine”.
(d) At the end of Regulation 12 (Matrons) there shall be inserted—
“(7) A matron in respect of a performance organised by an amateur body who is unpaid shall not require local authority approval provided that he or she is CRB-checked and is independent of the nominated child protection person.”.
(e) Regulation 17 (Further medical examinations) shall cease to have effect.’.—(Tim Loughton.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 4—Continuing support for former foster children—
‘Section 23C of the Children Act 1989 (continuing functions in respect of former relevant children) is amended by the insertion of the following subsections after subsection (5).
“(5ZA) The assistance given under subsection (4)(c) shall include the continuation of accommodation with the former local authority foster parent, unless—
(a) the former relevant child states that he or she does not wish to continue residing in such accommodation, or
(b) the former local authority foster parent does not wish to continue to provide accommodation, or
(c) it is not reasonably practicable to arrange such accommodation.
(5ZB) ‘Former local authority foster parent’ means a local authority foster parent within the meaning of section 22C(12) with whom the former relevant child, as a looked after child, was placed under section 22C(6)(a) or (b).”.’.
New clause 5—Assessment and support of young carers—
‘(1) Where it appears to a local authority that a child within their area may provide or be about to provide care to an adult or a child who is disabled, the authority must—
(a) assess whether the child has needs for support relating to their caring role (or is likely to have such needs in the future); and
(b) if the child is found to have such needs, set out what those needs are (or are likely to be in the future).
(2) Having carried out an assessment under subsection (1) the authority must meet those needs for support which it considers to be necessary to meet in order to safeguard and promote the child’s welfare.
(3) Having carried out an assessment under subsection (1), a local authority must also consider whether the adult is or may be eligible for assessment under the Care Act 2013, and if so must ensure such an assessment is carried out unless that adult objects.
(4) Having carried out an assessment under subsection (1) a local authority must consider whether, in the case of a child who is caring for a disabled child, the child being cared for requires an assessment under the Children Act 1989 and if so shall carry out that assessment unless the person with parental responsibility for that child objects.
(5) The Secretary of State shall issue guidance in relation to the duties set out above having consulted with persons whom the Secretary of State considers to be appropriate, the said guidance to be issued under section 7 of the Local Authority Social Services Act 1970.
(6) Any service provided by an authority in the exercise of functions conferred on them under this section may be provided for the family or for any member of the child’s family, and may include—
(a) services to the adult the child is providing care to meet the adult’s needs for care and support; and
(b) services to the adult to enhance their parenting capacity.
If such services are provided with a view to safeguarding and promoting the child’s welfare.’.
New clause 11—General duty of local authorities to co-operate to secure sufficient accommodation for looked after children—
‘(1) The Children Act 1989 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 22G (General duty of local authority to secure sufficient accommodation for looked after children), insert the following new section:
“22H General duty of local authorities to co-operate to secure sufficient accommodation for looked after children
(1) It is the general duty of a local authority to take steps in co-operation with neighbouring local authorities that secure, so far as reasonably practicable, the outcomes in subsections (2) and (3).
(2) The first outcome applies to the children defined in subsection (3) of section 22G in respect of whom the local authority are unable to secure the outcome defined in subsection (2) of that section.
(3) The first outcome is that the local authority is able to secure accommodation for those children that—
(a) is within a neighbouring authority’s area; and
(b) meets the need of those children.
(4) The second outcome applies to the children defined in subsection (3) of section 22G in respect of whom a neighbouring local authority is unable to secure the outcome defined in subsection (2) of that section.
(5) The second outcome is that the local authority is able to secure accommodation for those children that—
(a) is within the authority’s area; and
(b) meets the need of those children.”.’.
New clause 12—General duty of local authority to secure sufficient early help services—
‘(1) It is the general duty of a local authority to take steps that secure, so far as reasonably practicable, the outcome in subsection (2).
(2) The outcome is that the local authority is able to provide the children and young people mentioned in subsection (3) and their families with provision of early help services that—
(a) are within the authority’s area or a neighbouring authority’s area; and
(b) meet the needs of those children and young people and their families.
(3) The children and young people referred to in subsection (2) are those—
(a) who live within the local authority’s area, or
(b) that the local authority is looking after.
(4) In this section—
“early help services” means services to children under 6 and their families, and services to children and young people (of whatever age) and their families early in the emergence of a problem;
“young people” means people under 25.’.
New clause 13—Duty of local safeguarding children boards to undertake serious reviews—
‘(1) Section 14 of the Children Act 2004 (Functions and procedure of Local Safeguarding Children Boards) is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (2), insert—
“(2A) Functions of review under subsection (2) shall include a duty to undertake serious case reviews at the direction of the Secretary of State.”.’.
New clause 14—Part-time independent educational institutions to have no right to give corporal punishment—
‘(1) Schedule 1 to the Education and Skills Act 2008 (Minor and consequential amendments) is amended as follows.
(2) In sub-paragraph (5) of paragraph 9, insert the following words at the end of inserted subsection (7B):
“except that it applies in relation to this section as if for paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (2) of section 92 of that Act there were substituted the following words “for any amount of time during an academic year, no matter how little”.”.’.
New clause 15—Return from care—
‘(1) The Children Act 1989 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 22C (Ways in which looked after children are to be accommodated and maintained), insert the following new section:
“22CA Return home support services for looked after children returning home to the care of their parents/others with parental responsibility
(1) Whenever a local authority decides that a looked after child should return to the care of its parent, the local authority must assess and monitor the support needs of the child and the parent for as long as is necessary to safeguard and promote the child’s welfare.
(2) If after carrying out an assessment in accordance with subsection (1) above, the local authority decides that the child or the parent has support needs, they must provide a child in care, and, in the case of formerly-accommodated children, offer to provide, ‘return home support services’ to meet the identified support needs for as long as is necessary to safeguard and promote the child’s welfare.
(3) Whenever the local authority provides ‘return home support services’ under subsection (2) above, they must prepare a personal budget if asked to do so by the parent or the child, with a view to the recipient being involved in agreeing and securing those services.”.’.
New clause 16—Provision of further assistance to care leavers up to the age of 25—
‘(1) Section 23CA of the Children Act 1989 (Further assistance to pursue education or training) is amended as follows.
(2) At the end of the section heading insert “or for welfare purposes”.
(3) In subsection (1)(a), at the end, insert “and”.
(4) In subsection (1)(b), omit the last “and”.
(5) Omit subsection (1)(c).
(6) In subsection (4), after “training”, insert “or welfare”.
(7) In subsection (5)(a), omit the last “or”.
(8) In subsection (5)(b), after “training”, insert “or welfare”.
(9) At the end of subsection (5), add the following new paragraphs—
“(c) providing advice and support in relation to his welfare; or
(d) making a grant in exceptional circumstances to enable him to meet expenses connected with his welfare.”.’.
New clause 17—Amendments to the Health Act 2006—
‘(1) The Health Act 2006 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 8, insert—
“8A Offence of failing to prevent smoking in a private vehicle when children are present
(1) It is the duty of any person who drives a private vehicle to ensure that the vehicle is smoke-free whenever a child or children under the age of 18 are in such vehicle or part of such vehicle.
(2) A person who fails to comply with the duty in subsection (1) commits an offence.
(3) A person convicted of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine of £60.
(4) The Secretary of State may introduce regulations to alter the level of penalty payable under subsection (3).
(5) The Secretary of State shall update all relevant regulations regarding the offence created under subsection (2) within six months of this section coming into force.
(3) In section 79(4)(a), leave out “or 8(7)” and insert “, 8(7), or 8A(4).”.’.
New clause 18—Review of impact of under-occupancy penalty on prospective adopters, prospective special guardians and foster parents—
‘Before the end of one year beginning with the day on which this Act receives Royal Assent, the Secretary of State must—
(a) carry out a review of the impact of the housing under-occupancy penalty on prospective adopters, prospective special guardians and foster parents, and
(b) publish a report of the conclusions of the review.’.
New clause 19—Arrangements to support child witnesses—
‘(1) The Secretary of State shall by order introduce arrangements to establish specialist courts in cases where a child has been sexually abused or harmed, and where the child will be required to give evidence to the court, and to be examined by the court.
(2) Arrangements made by order under subsection (1) above shall include arrangements to appoint intermediaries to support child witnesses in all court cases, and other measures to support child witnesses.’.
New clause 20—Personal, social and health education in maintained schools—
‘(1) In section 84(3) of the Education Act 2002 (curriculum foundation subjects for the first, second and third key stages), after paragraph (g) there is inserted—
“(ga) personal, social and health education”.
(2) In section 85(4) of the Education Act 2002 (curriculum foundation subjects for the fourth key stage), at the end there is inserted “, and
(d) personal, social and health education.”
(3) In section 74(1) of the Education and Inspections Act 2006, which (when brought into force) will substitute a new section 85 in the Education Act 2002, in subsection (4) of that substituted section (foundation subjects for the fourth key stage), at the end there is inserted “, and
(d) personal, social and health education.”
(4) Before section 86 of the Education Act 2002 there is inserted—
“85B Personal, social and health education
(1) For the purposes of this Part, personal, social and health education (“PSHE”) shall include sex and relationship education, including information about same-sex relationships, sexual violence, domestic violence and sexual consent.
(2) The National Curriculum for England is not required to specify attainment targets or assessment arrangements for PSHE (and section 84(1) has effect accordingly).
(3) The Secretary of State for Education shall set out guidance to schools and colleges to ensure that a coherent approach to personal, social, health and economic education is developed, including between primary and secondary schools.
(4) It is the duty of the governing body and head teacher of any school in which PSHE is provided in pursuance of this Part to secure that guidance issued under subsection (3) is followed and that—
(a) information presented in the course of providing PSHE should be accurate and balanced;
(b) PSHE is taught in a way that is appropriate to the ages of the pupils concerned and to their religious and cultural backgrounds, and reflects a reasonable range of religious, cultural and other perspectives;
(c) PSHE is taught in a way that endeavours to promote equality, celebrate diversity, and emphasise the importance of both rights and responsibilities.
(5) In the exercise of their functions under this Part so far as relating to PSHE, a local authority, governing body or head teacher shall have regard to any guidance issued from time to time by the Secretary of State.”.
(5) Section 403 of the Education Act 1996 (sex education: manner of provision) is amended as set out in subsections (6) to (9).
(6) In subsection (1), for the words from the beginning to “at a maintained school” there is substituted “The governing body or other proprietor of any school to which this section applies, and its head teacher, must take such steps as are reasonably practicable to ensure that sex and relationships education is given to registered pupils at the school and that”.
(7) After that subsection there is inserted—
“(1ZA) The schools to which this section applies are—
(a) maintained schools;
(b) city technology colleges;
(c) city colleges for the technology of the arts;
(d) Academies.
A reference in this section or section 404 to the governing body of a school, in relation to a school within paragraph (b), (c) or (d), shall be read as a reference to the proprietor of the school.”.
(8) In subsection (1A)—
(a) for “when sex education is given to registered pupils at maintained schools” there is substituted “when sex and relationships education is given to registered pupils at schools to which this section applies”;
(b) in paragraph (a), after “, and” there is inserted “learn the nature of civil partnership and the importance of strong and stable relationships.”;
(c) paragraph (b) is omitted.
(9) In subsection (1C), for “sex education” there is substituted “sex and relationships education”,
(10) In section 579 of the Education Act 1996 (general interpretation), in the definition of “sex education” in subsection (1)—
(a) for “sex education” there is substituted “sex and relationships education”;
(b) at the end there is inserted “but does not include education about human reproduction provided as part of any science teaching;”.
(11) For section 405 of the Education Act 1996 there is substituted—
“405 Exemption from sex and relationships education
(1) If a pupil of sufficient maturity in attendance at a school to which section 403 applies requests to be wholly or partly excused from receiving sex and relationships education at the school, the pupil shall be so excused accordingly until the request is withdrawn.
(2) The Secretary of State must in regulations define “sufficient maturity”.
(3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (2) may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
(4) The Secretary of State must lay draft regulations before Parliament before the end of the period of 3 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.”.’.
New clause 22—Information sharing about live births—
‘(1) NHS trusts should make arrangements to share with local authorities records of live births to parents resident in their area, to be used by the local authority for the purposes of identifying and contacting new families through children’s centres and any other early years outreach services it may operate.
(2) The Secretary of State must, within a period of six months of Royal Assent to this Act, bring forward regulations placing consequential requirements on trusts and local authorities in exercising their duty under subsection (1), including, but not limited to—
(a) the format of arrangements made;
(b) the safeguarding of information;
(c) the circumstances in which it would not be appropriate for a trust to provide information to local authorities;
(d) the regularity of data transfers;
(e) timescales within which a local authority must contact new families made known to it; and
(f) any further requirements the Secretary of State deems necessary.
(3) Local authorities must establish a pilot scheme to trial the registration of births within children’s centres, and evaluate the effectiveness of the scheme to—
(a) identify and contact new families; and
(b) enable children’s centres to reach more families, in particular those with children under the age of two, or who the local authority consider—
(i) hard to reach, or
(ii) vulnerable.’.
New clause 25—Health bodies: duties with respect to young carers—
‘(1) In exercising their general functions health bodies must—
(a) promote and safeguard the well-being of young carers;
(b) ensure that effective procedures exist to identify patients who are or are about to become carers;
(c) ensure that effective procedures exist to identify patients who it may be reasonably assumed may be receiving care from a child or young person for whom they are responsible;
(d) ensure that appropriate systems exist to ensure that carers receive appropriate information and advice; and
(e) ensure that systems are in place to ensure that the relevant general medical services are rendered to their patients who are young carers, or to the young carers of their patients.
(2) In relation to paragraphs (1)(b), (c) and (d), the Secretary of State may by regulations further provide for the strategies to be developed.’.
New clause 26—Schools: duties with respect to young carers—
‘(1) The appropriate authorities of schools must ensure that, within 12 months of the passing of this Act, they take all reasonable steps to ensure that there is in place a policy which—
(a) identifies young carers within the school; and
(b) makes arrangements for the provision within school of appropriate support to promote the well-being and improve the educational attainment of pupils who are young carers.
(2) In discharging its duty under subsection (1), where appropriate the authority must—
(a) consult with the family of the child or young person identified, or the young person themselves;
(b) involve the local authority in which the identified pupil is ordinarily resident;
(c) refer the identified pupil to additional services outside the school;
(d) have regard to any guidance given from time to time by the Secretary of State.
(3) The “appropriate authority” for a school is—
(a) in the case of a maintained school, the governing body;
(b) in the case of an academy, the proprietor;
(c) in the case of a pupil referral unit, the management committee.’.
New clause 27—Further and higher educational institutions: duties with respect to student carers—
‘(1) The responsible body of an institution to which this section applies must, within 12 months of the passing of this Act, identify or make arrangements to identify student carers and have a policy in place on promoting the well-being of student carers.
(2) This section applies to—
(a) a university;
(b) any other institution within the higher education sector;
(c) an institution within the further education sector.
(3) A responsible body is—
(a) in the case of an institution in paragraphs (2)(a) or (b), the governing body;
(b) in the case of a college of further education under the management of a board of management, the board of management;
(c) in the case of any other college of further education, any board of governors of the college or any person responsible for the management of the college, whether or not formally constituted as a governing body or board of governors.
(4) In discharging its duty under subsection (1), where appropriate the authority must—
(a) consult with the family of the child or young person identified, or the young person themselves;
(b) involve the local authority in which the identified pupil is ordinarily resident;
(c) refer the identified student to additional services outside of the institution; and
(d) have regard to any guidance given from time to time by the Secretary of State.’.
Amendment 33, in clause 1, page 1, leave out line 9 and insert—
‘satisfied that C should be placed for adoption—’.
Amendment 34, in clause 2, page 1, line 15, at end insert—
‘(1A) In subsection (4), after paragraph (f) insert—
“(g) the child’s religious persuasion, racial origin and cultural and linguistic background, although this paragraph does not apply to an adoption agency in Wales, to which subsection (5) instead applies.”.’.
Amendment 2, in clause 3, page 2, line 22, at end insert—
‘(1A) The Secretary of State may require local authorities to make arrangements with adoption agencies to compensate them for the cost of recruiting approved prospective adopters.’.
Amendment 29, page 2, line 22, at end insert—
‘(1A) Directions under subsection (1) may not be given before May 2017, being five years after the introduction of adoption scorecards.’.
Amendment 3, page 2, line 32, leave out paragraph (c).
Government amendments 9 and 16.
Amendment 31, in clause 9, page 9, line 8, at end insert—
‘and section 23B (8A) and monitoring and evaluating the effectiveness of that local authority in discharging its duties under section 23C (4B) and section 23CA and advising them on ways to improve.’.
Amendment 32, page 9, line 11, at end add—
‘(2) In the Children Act 1989, in section 23B after subsection (8) insert—
(8A) The duty of local authorities under subsection (8) to safeguard and promote the child’s welfare, includes in particular a duty to promote the child’s educational achievement.”.’.
Amendment 49, in clause 10, page 9, line 16, at end insert—
‘unless in the view of the court it is unreasonable to do so’.
Amendment 35, in clause 11, page 10, line 10, at end insert—
‘(2B) “Involvement” is any kind of direct or indirect involvement that promotes the welfare of the child. It shall not be taken to mean any particular division of a child’s time.’.
Amendment 50, page 10, line 10, at end insert—
‘(2B) Involvement shall mean, but is not limited to, direct contact with a child by any means including supervised contact, indirect contact with a child by any means including letters or telephone or receiving information about a child from the other parent or a third party.’.
Amendment 51, in clause 12, page 10, line 35, at end add—
‘(5) A child arrangements order that provides for a child to reside with a particular person is to be interpreted as granting rights of custody to that person.’.
Amendment 5, in clause 14, page 13, line 8, after ‘issued’, insert—
‘unless the court considers it necessary in order to safeguard or promote the child’s welfare to permit additional time for the disposing of the application.’.
Amendment 52, page 13, line 8, after ‘issued’, insert—
‘unless in the view of the court it would be in the best interests of the child to set a different timetable’.
Amendment 6, page 13, line 45, at end insert—
‘or, having taken into consideration the safeguarding and promotion of the child’s welfare, following evidence presented to the court relating to a planned programme of intervention, such longer time period as the court deems appropriate.’.
Amendment 36, in clause 15, page 14, line 46, at end insert—
‘(A1) Section 22 of the Children Act 1989 (general duty of local authority in relation to children looked after by them) is amended as follows.
(B1) In subsection (4), after “proposing to look after,”, insert “including when making any fundamental change to the care plan before or after a care order has been made.”.’.
Amendment 7, page 15, line 3, after ‘provisions’, insert ‘and sibling placement arrangements’.
Amendment 8, page 15, line 6, at end insert—
‘unless it deems such consideration necessary in assessing the permanence provisions of the section 31A plan for the child concerned and making the care order, taking into account the circumstances of the application and the safeguarding and promotion of the child’s welfare.’.
Amendment 53, page 15, line 6, at end insert—
‘but may do so when any matter is brought to the court’s attention by the child’s guardian’.
Government amendments 10 to 15.
Tim Loughton
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for taking up most of the remaining debating time in reading out the list of the remaining new clauses and amendments in the group. It is unfortunate that we have a large group of new clauses and amendments here, covering a very wide variety of important subjects to do with personal, social and health education, foster care continuing support, young carers, care leaver assistants, birth registration, adoption and so on, and yet we are left with barely an hour, particularly for Back Benchers who have not had the opportunity in Committee to point out things that we think are missing from the Bill or things that could be improved. On Second Reading we were time-limited in our contributions, too. I have taken a lot of time in making that point, but it needed to be put on the record.
I will speak as quickly as possible to the nine amendments and new clauses that I have tabled. In doing so, I want to signify my sympathy with new clause 4, tabled by the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), on continuing support for foster children, which is important. I know there are various problems with the way in which the amendment has been fashioned. I support new clause 22, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), on birth registration improvements. I have a good deal of sympathy, as I said on Second Reading, with improvements to the Bill to assist young carers, particularly new clause 5.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Do the hon. Gentleman’s proposals relate only to the schools he referred to as madrassahs, or do they also relate to supplementary schools and weekend schools?
Tim Loughton
The new clause is very broad and could effectively cover other supplementary schools, as they are termed. I know that this subject is fraught with problems. No doubt the new clause will not be a satisfactory solution ultimately, but I think it is a working basis on which to take the matter forward, rather than continuing to ignore it.
New clause 15, which has the full support of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, relates to support services for those returning from care. There has been a big focus, rightly, on improving the whole adoption regime. The Government announced a little while ago that £150 million will be taken from what was the early intervention grant to provide adoption support services. It is really important that we have the right degree of support around placements to ensure that they stick.
We hear a lot about adoption support services, improving care homes and better training for foster carers, but 37% of children in care return to their birth parents, and too many of them then return to care after the initial intensive preparation and support because of lack of ongoing support services. In 2012 that affected 10,000 children who returned to the birth parents—treble the number of children who get adopted. We know that that instability, that revolving door going in and out of care, can be really damaging to those vulnerable children. The NSPCC has put together a very credible case. It has totted up the cost of children remaining in the care system against the cost of giving them proper support packages back with their families, where that is the most appropriate destination for them and only where it is in their best interests.
New clause 15 merits serious consideration. It would provide the right social outcome for vulnerable children in care, but it would also save an awful lot of money if we get it right. I am sure that the Minister, who has great expertise in and knowledge of dealing with different types of children in the care system, will be supportive. It is also supported by an interesting paper produced last November by the Social Care Institute for Excellence, which said:
“Returning from public care to live with a parent is the most likely ‘permanence option’ but, for maltreated children, the least successful. There are wide variations between local authorities in terms of the resources allocated to decision-making about reunification, and the quality of practice.”
Finally, I have tabled three amendments on adoption. I have mentioned why adoption needs to be a priority. Many good things have happened in the past two and a half years on adoption, and I am very pleased that the Minister is committed to carrying that work on. The number of children given the opportunity to be adopted has been increasing, although numbers alone are not the be-all and end-all; it is the quality of the placements that really matters. The adoption scorecards that were introduced a year ago lay out with full transparency how well an authority is doing compared with other authorities across a whole range of measures. We have the adoption gateway to help recruitment, we are speeding up legal proceedings for children left in limbo, we are bringing in and beefing up fostering for adoption, we have the adoption support services that I mentioned, and many other things are happening. All that amounts to a very serious structural overhaul, and it is beginning to work, so we do not want to go and mess it up. I fear that in this Bill, the Government, with the best intentions, are going too far.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who, like so many Members, is incredibly passionate about these issues and did an enormous amount to shape the Bill in its current form. Many Members here today are deeply frustrated that they have not yet had any opportunity to scrutinise some really important areas of the Bill, and I share their frustration. I will attempt to be as brief as I can so that as many of them can speak as possible while we make sure that we do this Bill and these children justice.
When we scrutinised the Bill on Second Reading, my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) and I said that it would come to be characterised as much by what was not in it as what was. That is the motivation behind our new clause 20, which would ensure that sex and relationships education is available to all children across the country. The nation has been shocked by child grooming scandals where young girls have been systematically exploited by older men—often men who they thought were taking care of them.
Research by the Children’s Commissioner has found that far too many young people—boys and girls—do not know what a good relationship looks like. Worryingly, it also found that many of them did not even understand the concept of consent. Our view is that we are failing to equip young people with the knowledge, skills and resilience they need to keep themselves safe. We must do much more to tackle child abuse, but more importantly we must prevent it from happening in the first place.
Young people are increasingly exposed to risks online. We think that the question is not whether we can afford to talk to them about issues as difficult as this, but whether we can afford not to. We think that all children should have the opportunity to access age-appropriate sex and relationships education. In a departmental report on personal, social, health and economic education, young people said that they valued the chance to express views safely and ask questions, and felt that that had improved their relationship with others. We believe that parents should retain the right to withdraw children aged 15 or under because they know their children best, but equally we know that the vast majority of parents would like their children to have access to sex and relationships education. For children whose parents do not talk to them about these issues, this could be critical in keeping them safe, especially given that a third of girls say that they have experienced unwanted touching. We are keen for the Government to support our proposed new clause 20.
Amendment 33, which stands in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West, seeks to ensure that we do not put speed before getting it right for children. It would ensure that children are not placed in fostering or adoption placements either before it has been decided that adoption is the plan or, in the Minister’s words, as early as the first week in care. We debated this at length in Committee, so I will not labour the point, but that debate gave me more cause for concern, not less.
It seems to me that placing children in fostering or adoption placements before the local authority has decided that that should be the plan is more disruptive for the child. Conducting an informal matching process, possibly within a week, before placing the child and then considering their wishes and feelings about whether adoption is suitable and the placement is the right one runs the risk of putting more people off adopting, as many Members have pointed out, and of more adoption breakdowns, which plays into children’s biggest fears that this for-ever home may not be the right one. As always, when we talked to children about this, they felt strongly that their views should be heard.
Lisa Nandy
I am sorry, but I cannot give way because a number of Back Benchers have sat through this entire debate and are desperate to get in. I wish the hon. Gentleman well in doing so.
In Committee, the Minister said that further statutory guidance would be provided to local authorities that are making this important decision. Although that does not alleviate all my concerns, the guidance will clearly be central to the practical effects of clause 1. Why have we not yet seen a draft of the guidance, and when will we see it?
Amendment 34, which stands in my name, relates to the consideration of ethnicity in adoption placements. The Minister expressed concern in Committee that placing ethnicity on the welfare checklist, as we are suggesting, will put undue weight on it. He said:
“As soon as one tries to specify particular elements of a child’s characteristics in an exhaustive list, one then starts to prioritise one characteristic over another.”––[Official Report, Children and Families Public Bill Committee, 12 March 2013; c. 205.]
I want him to consider briefly that the opposite may be the problem.
The Minister referred to research by Birmingham city council that looked at the experience of prospective adopters. It certainly emerged that a problem with practice—aggressive questioning, for example—and not with legislation had put people off. The research also demonstrated, however, that the majority of adopters—a staggering 90%—had expressed a strong preference to adopt a child with a similar ethnicity and that it was the failure to explore such factors with potential adopters that prevented children from black and minority ethnic backgrounds from being considered. In fact, in the one case in which a social worker did do that, the prospective parents went on to successfully adopt a child with a different ethnicity.
I reiterate that the amendment would not ensure that children were matched only with prospective adopters with the same background as them. Crucially, however, it would ensure that thoughtful consideration was given to ethnicity so that such factors were explored and we did not put off people from adopting a child who could otherwise find a loving home because they mistakenly thought that they would not be right for that child, which we think is a crying shame.
Amendment 35 is designed to ensure that we do not unwittingly create misconceptions for parents. We agree with the Government, as we said at length in Committee, that it is critical to most children to have an ongoing, good-quality relationship with their mum and dad, but we are concerned about the practical impact of clause 11.
I will not rehearse all the debates that we had in Committee, but the Minister was right to say that he did not want to be too prescriptive about what involvement meant. That is why our amendment would define what involvement is not, in line with the explanatory notes. It is important that that is put in the Bill and that no room is left for doubt, given that there have already been headlines in this country and that misconceptions have been created. I hope that the Minister will accept that amendment.
I do not need to rehearse why new clause 19 is so important, as it would prevent the harrowing and aggressive questioning of young witnesses in court. This morning, we received the welcome announcement that the Government are trialling pre-recorded cross-examination in Leeds, Liverpool and Kingston upon Thames. I am sure that the Minister appreciates the urgency of this matter as more child grooming cases are brought to trial. Will he say when the pilots will start, how they will be evaluated, whether there will be any measures alongside them to prevent the aggressive questioning that we have heard so much about and how soon they will be rolled out?
As I am sure the Minister is aware, the implementation of section 28 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 alone will not be enough to support vulnerable witnesses. New clause 19 also proposes specialist court sittings for children who have been sexually abused, with trained judges and barristers, and the restriction of multiple cross-examinations. Will he say whether there will be a cap on the number of lawyers who may cross-examine a witness? I would be grateful if he could give more information about that.
I tabled new clause 18 notwithstanding our strong opposition to the under-occupation penalty, known to some as the bedroom tax. We are extremely concerned that that policy will put people off taking care of children whom they otherwise would have looked after because of the financial implications. We want to ensure that, at a time when Ministers share our concerns about the acute shortage of foster carers and adopters, we do not make the situation worse. We were struck by the evidence from Adoption UK about the problems for prospective adopters and special guardians, which was provided by Grandparents Plus. We are very concerned that the National Housing Federation estimates that the discretionary housing fund will fall short by £100 million.
We thought that the Minister had allayed our concerns about foster carers in Committee until it transpired the following day that the Government’s second change of heart meant that only one foster child would be covered, despite the fact that many foster carers look after more than one child. I was grateful for the Minister’s assurance that he would monitor the impact of the policy. Given that it has come into force and that he assured us in Committee that it would be monitored from April, will he say whether the Department has begun the monitoring programme, how it is going about it, whether there is any independence in the evaluation and, if so, who is conducting it? What, if any, evidence has been collected over the past two and a half months, and when does the Department expect to publish a report? Will he ensure that the report is made available to Members of the House as soon as it is published, given how important this matter is to many Members from all parts of the House and given that it affects vulnerable children in every constituency?
Finally, amendments 36 and 37 would ensure that children’s views and sibling arrangements are taken into account when courts scrutinise or change a care plan. Although we support the Government’s efforts to focus courts on the long-term aspects of care plans, we are concerned that, in the real world, the acute pressures on social workers, independent reviewing officers and guardians will mean that important aspects may be missed. Does the Minister have anything concrete to report from the discussion that he was holding with independent reviewing officers about how he will alleviate that pressure? Court scrutiny has helped social workers to ensure that they have access to resources and has changed care plans to allow sibling contact. I was grateful for the Minister’s assurances in Committee that there is nothing to prevent courts from looking at this matter, but given the pressure that family courts are under, especially after the legal aid cuts, we think that it is too important to leave to chance.
I am grateful for the opportunity to set out those points, but immensely disappointed at the lack of scrutiny that we have given these aspects of the Bill today. I would now like to give other people the opportunity to contribute.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
I rise to speak to new clause 20 as a parent of two boys, one of whom is still at school and one of whom left recently. I also want to speak for the many parents in my constituency who, like me, are concerned about the provision of sex education in this country.
I am pleased that new clause 20 proposes to redefine sex education as “sex and relationships education”, although I would have put it the other way around, with the emphasis on relationships rather than sex. After agreeing on the wording, I part company with those who tabled the new clause.
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
I understand that the hon. Lady’s concern is about a centralised curriculum. What does she make of her Government’s proposal to put gardening and composting on the national curriculum, as well as financial education and compound interest? Surely along with those two Cs we should also put consent.
Fiona Bruce
I am vice-chair of the all-party group on financial education for young people and I hugely welcome that proposal. I think it is an essential ingredient of enabling our young people to mature and face society when they leave school.
At present we do not have a centralised curriculum, and I cannot support proposals for the centralisation of the curriculum as suggested by the champions of the new clause. Research demonstrates that children and young people want to receive their initial sex and relationships education from their parents and families, with school and other adults building on that later. I am not naive and I fully appreciate that many parents do not fulfil their parental duties in that respect. That is why it is essential that we have sex education in senior schools, and I do not deny the importance of that for one minute, for many of the reasons mentioned by the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) when she introduced the new clause.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
What does the hon. Lady make of the recent Ofsted report on the teaching of PSHE, which mentions its variability around the country, particularly in sex and relationships education?
Fiona Bruce
I am glad the hon. Lady raised that point, because if some of the suggestions that I will come to in my speech were implemented, we would have much better sex education throughout the country than we do at present. She is right. Much still needs to be done, and I said in my introductory remarks that I am concerned about the standard of sex education in our schools, although I do not believe a centralised curriculum will improve that.
Fiona Bruce
I will not take any other interventions, because it would reduce the time for other speakers.
The Department for Education’s sex and relationships education guidance honours the involvement of parents, making plain the need for parental involvement in the content of PSHE. It states:
“Parents are the key people in teaching their children about sex and relationships, maintaining the culture and ethos of the family, helping their children cope with the emotional and physical aspects of growing up, and preparing them for the challenges and responsibilities that sexual maturity brings…schools should always work in partnership with parents, consulting them regularly on the content of sex and relationship education programmes.”
The majority of respondents to the recent Government consultation on PSHE believed that parental engagement was crucial, as was providing parents with every possible and practical opportunity to interact and engage with PSHE provision.
Although we should understand the important role that sex education provides, we should not aspire for it narrowly within one context. Current procedures provide a mechanism for drawing in parents who perhaps do not talk to their children about sex and relationships, and encourage those who do to continue with that. At present, all secondary schools must provide sex education by law, and although there is no centrally determined curriculum, governors and teachers, in conversation and consultation with parents, should develop a curriculum on a school-by-school basis, according to the ethos of the school. When properly applied, that decentralised approach means that this sensitive subject can be framed in a manner that has regard for parental views and concerns.If the curriculum were set centrally, that could and probably would disappear.
Currently, a good school should always contact parents to let them know when the sex education curriculum is taught, precisely so that they can follow up with their own conversations at home. The current procedures encourage parental involvement, but new clause 20 would serve only to diminish it. I cannot agree that that is the right approach at a time when many people are concerned that we live in a society in which opportunities for parental involvement and influence need strengthening and encouraging, not reducing and diminishing. Throughout this afternoon’s debate, I have repeatedly heard Ministers and others say how important it is to take into account parents’ views with regard to other aspects of education. Surely that should apply in this critical area of a child’s education.
That does not mean that I am complacent about the current approach—far from it. There is tremendous room for improvement in our relationship and sex education, not least the fact that greater emphasis needs to be placed on the duty to consult parents and communicate clearly with them about what is being taught. Some head teachers believe they must exclusively use whatever resources are recommended by their local authority, but in fact a plethora of other good materials provided by outside agencies can be used, such as the Evaluate: Informing Choice programme. Other head teachers do not accept that the decision should be for the governing body, which has a vital role. I encourage governors actively to take up that role in all schools.
New clause 20 would be a mistake and I hope the Government firmly reject it. However, I ask Ministers to tell us what plans the Government have to make the current decentralised approach to the critical area of sex education work more effectively, so that parents are more and not less involved, as is intended, and so help our next generation to form and sustain healthy, fulfilling and enduring personal relationships and family lives.
Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)
I rise to speak to new clause 4, which stands in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), who unfortunately cannot be in the Chamber because of a prior commitment. He has been a tremendous campaigner, along with the Fostering Network, for allowing young people leaving care to remain with their foster carers until they are at least 21. Currently, children in care leave on or before their 18th birthday, which usually means that children in foster care must leave their foster carer. Every year, hundreds of the most vulnerable young people have to leave home at age 17, but the average age for leaving home in the UK is 24.
The statistics on outcomes for care leavers are not good. One third of those living on the streets have a background in care, and almost a quarter of the adult prison population have spent time in care. Local authorities have a duty in care planning guidance to ensure that young people leave their foster care when they are ready and not before, but in 2011-12 only 320 young people—5%—remained with their foster carers after they reached age 18. Research shows that the longer a young person can stay with a foster family, the more successful they are later.
In 2008, the Labour Government set up a “staying put” pilot to assess the benefits of allowing children to stay in care and with foster carers. The pilot reported in 2012 and found that established family relationships and stability make a positive difference to young people in care as they become adults. That is not a surprising outcome—one of the basic values of our culture is the importance of families in providing a nurturing and secure base for young people to make the transition to independence. Not only that, but foster families can become families for life. My aunt and uncle had long-term foster children. To this day, contact continues, as we would expect in other families.
However, there have been no moves to roll out that scheme. It has been left to councils to decide what provision to fund. The provision is therefore a power a council can choose to exercise rather than a duty to provide a service. In effect, it is a postcode lottery. We have taken the responsibility of parenting those children, having judged that their parents’ care is not good enough. In doing so, we have effectively said that the care system will provide better parenting.
Since 2010, the Government have stressed the importance of treating looked-after children the same as we would treat our own children. Planning for the transition of care leavers to adulthood should be founded on the principle: is this good enough for my own child?
Many young people in care have experienced poor parental care, emotional neglect and abuse, and disruptive care placements. An increasing number of young people are coming into care in their early teens, often with complex needs. The care system is failing these children. They are often the ones who run away or go missing, making them vulnerable to harm, including child sexual exploitation. It is recognised that we need to cut the number of out-of-area placements, with local authorities making placements nearer home. The provision of supported foster placements will need to be considered as an alternative to children’s home placements many miles away, so that we can have more vulnerable children in foster care at 18. Although they are adults at 18, they are still vulnerable adults, which is demonstrated by the statistics I quoted earlier. What difference have we made as parents if children in our care end up on the streets, in jail or with disabling mental health problems—another generation doomed to mirror the lives of their parents?
Why would we not let them stay with their foster carers for those important extra three years? Cost must of course be a calculation, but it is minimal. Loughborough university calculated that on average it cost only £17,500 per local authority per year. There will be a far bigger public cost in providing services to a future generation of failing parents, or in helping young people through drug and alcohol addiction. The human cost in misery is incalculable, as is the cost to society in the lost opportunities of the contribution that might have been made if vulnerable young people had been better supported into independence.
For many young people, their scarring experiences will make their life a tough one. The statistics speak for themselves: young people leaving care need more support, not less. Our amendment would ensure that they receive that continuing support by being allowed to stay in foster care until they are 21 if they want to. I look forward to a positive response from the Minister.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
I am proud to be a patron of Devon Rape Crisis, which, like all of us in this House, is deeply concerned about sexual violence against women and girls. All of us in this House are particularly concerned about the extent to which young people are accessing their information about sex from violent pornography. The influence of violent pornography is to normalise distorted relationships. It teaches some young men that it is normal for women to enjoy violent sex, and to have a total lack of understanding about what constitutes consent. Disturbingly, many young women are being pressured into accepting deeply abnormal and often very violent relationships.
I completely accept that many parents wish to take on the role of delivering sensitive teaching on relationships in a home environment, but let us be absolutely clear that that is not happening for many young girls. The recent outrages in Oxford and in too many of our towns show that young women are being predated on by violent and often much older men. Young women have had no training in how to say no, or an understanding that it is okay to say no. Too often, there is no one for them to confide in. I put it to the House, therefore, that we need to have sex and relationships education in our curriculum: if it is not there, it will not happen. Too often when we teach sex in schools, it is about plumbing and prevention.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
The hon. Lady’s words echo those of Ofsted, which pointed out that the secondary sex and relationships curriculum is not only too focused on plumbing but does not build on the skills that young people need to decide whether they want to enter a relationship—the skills to say no.
Dr Wollaston
It is about teaching girls to say no, and teaching young men to understand that no is no. That needs to be delivered in an age-appropriate way. It is not about frightening young people or taking it out of the hands of parents. In fact, many parents feel relieved that other people are delivering it.
There are very competent peer educators out there, ready to deliver these programmes in schools, but I am afraid that if it cannot be counted, it often does not count. It is important, then, to establish the principle that these programmes should be happening; then, of course, we would need to discuss the matter further, because it would need to be delivered in an evidence-based way. I get the message from teachers that they often do not feel they have the skills to deliver these programmes. Let us make sure that this is delivered in an age-appropriate way and by the right professionals, but first let us make sure that it happens, because this is about reducing violence against women. We can send out the message that this is important and deliver it well.
Alex Cunningham
I rise to speak to new clause 17, in my name and those of other hon. Members, which would provide for a ban on smoking in private vehicles when children are present. It is a child protection issue.
I could devote much of my time to the strong influence of the tobacco lobby in this place and knocking down the idea that the new clause is my way of expanding the nanny state, but I will not. Instead, I shall address the simple decision that the new clause invites Members to make: do we act to protect children and ban smoking in cars, or do we leave them to suffer not just the discomfort but the tremendous health problems they will otherwise encounter? In Committee, there was considerable sympathy for the intention, with some reservation about the introduction of an education programme for offenders, but the new clause is much simpler: if a person smokes in a car when a child is present, they would face a £60 fine—no awareness course, no complications, no compromise.
The principle of such a ban has gained much support from fellow Members on both sides of the House. A majority of people understand that smoking is harmful to our health, particularly the health of children, and most would not expose children to smoke in a vehicle. In a survey of 10,000 adults carried out by Action on Smoking and Health that included more than 2,000 smokers, which asked about the car people travelled in most frequently, only 6% said that people should smoke whenever they liked. Some 71% said that smoking was not allowed full stop and 9% said that smoking was not allowed if there were non-smokers or children travelling. Despite that, however, research from the British Lung Foundation found that more than 51% of eight to 15-year-olds reported exposure to cigarette smoke when confined in a car in the UK.
Public opinion is firmly on the side of change. A survey by YouGov found that 85% of adults in north-east England, where my constituency is situated, said that they would support laws to ban smoking in cars carrying under-18s. One factor that sets children apart from other groups is that they are less likely to have a say on whether they are exposed to second-hand smoke in a vehicle in which they are travelling. Given that passive smoking is particularly harmful to children, we have a recipe for a public health time bomb. With their quicker respiration rates, smaller airways, less mature immune systems and greater absorption of pollutants, children are at an increased risk from passive smoking in an enclosed space. Passive smoking increases the risk of a number of health problems, ranging from wheezing and asthma to respiratory infections and bacterial meningitis, and doubles the risk of sudden infant death.
These attitudes are backed up by survey data from the British Lung Foundation that shows that many children are uncomfortable with adults smoking around them, but feel unable to influence smoking behaviours. Some 31% of children aged eight to 15 exposed to second-hand smoke in a car reported having asked the smoker to stop. Alarmingly, however, a greater share—34%—had refrained from asking because they were either too frightened or embarrassed. As Members of Parliament, it is our duty to act in the interests of the public we serve and represent, including children and young people, and it is high time that we heeded what our young people are telling us. In the interests of preserving public health, the only way to protect completely against second-hand smoke is to make homes and cars entirely smoke free. A good starting point would be to ban smoking in cars when children are present.
The Government’s response to this developing crisis, in the form of an informative educational campaign that has just been launched, is certainly welcome, but the message about the dangers of passive smoking must be spread even wider. We must stop this sort of behaviour, so this campaign is of course welcome. Private vehicles are considered private spaces—people argue that it is their private space—but it is the young person’s private space as well, so I hope that the House will support my proposal and that the Government will accept it. Opposing a ban on smoking in private vehicles when children are present assumes that the right to smoke trumps the right of the child to be free from harmful smoke. It does not. I have stressed in the past, and do so again, that this is not just a health issue, but an issue of child protection. I hope the Government will now accept it.
Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)
I want briefly to draw attention to new clause 5, which addresses the issue of young carers and the fact that the good intentions of the Government in the Care Bill to extend new rights to adult carers have inadvertently created a gap that leaves young carers in a position where they would be less well favoured than adult carers in the future.
As a result of the new clause, tabled by a cross-party group of Members, the Government can ensure that young carers are treated in a way that is fair and appropriate for them and are not placed in a position where they are undertaking inappropriate and burdensome caring responsibilities. I hope that the Government will be able to give us a good sign of intent to deliver on this agenda. They are doing a great job for adults in the Care Bill and, in carers week, we need to do the same for young carers.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. Before I call the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), may I remind him that we have a very short period left and that I need to leave a few minutes for the Minister?
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
I would like to speak briefly to amendments Nos 5, 6, 7 and 8, which seek to introduce greater flexibility and understanding of the 26-week target for care proceedings. Nobody in this place would deny that that target is very helpful and we hope that, in most cases, we will be able to meet it. But we know—for example from the Norgrove report—that, on average, cases take up to 61 weeks: 48 weeks in family court proceedings. The Justice Committee, of which I am a member, held an inquiry into the operation of family courts. In its evidence to us, Barnardo’s made the point:
“Two months of delay in making decisions in the best interest of a child equates to 1% of childhood that cannot be restored.”
For this reason, both the all-party group on child protection and the Justice Committee welcomed the Government’s aim of reducing unnecessary delay in the care system.
Care must be taken with regard to the target as well. Clause 14 provides the starting point for courts in setting a time for cases; proceedings should come to an end within 26 weeks, as I mentioned. But there is some ambiguity as to when courts should deem an extension appropriate. As the College of Social Work and the Family Rights Group have argued, there is a genuine risk that the proposed 26-week limit could result in too much focus on procedure and not enough on the welfare of the child.
The vast majority of cases will be concluded within six months, but deciding on permanent options can take longer for some children, not always due to problems with the court process or unnecessary delay. Social workers will attest that situations can change in the course of proceedings; for example, when relatives present themselves as possible carers late in the process. The Family Rights Group has pointed out that, under the new limit, if family members are late in offering themselves as carers there may well not be enough time for the relevant assessments to be carried out.
Equally, placing a child with grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins or other siblings can reinforce aspects of a child’s identity. In many cases, however, relatives will be reluctant to offer this option if they think that there is still a chance that the child will be able to be returned to his or her parents.
I anticipate that Government Members will point out that the safeguard for granting extensions to cases is robust enough to allow for complications to be ironed out. Sadly, I have it on good evidence that judges are, in some cases, already imposing a 26-week deadline on proceedings even before the limit has been introduced. It is crucial that time considerations do not supersede the welfare of the child concerned. What is more, some intervention programmes take longer than 26 weeks due to parents undergoing treatment for substance misuse issues and similar problems. The pilot boroughs—Hammersmith and Fulham, Westminster, and Kensington and Chelsea—have estimated that 25 to 30 per cent. of all cases will take longer than the 26-week limit.
Intensive family programmes, such as the NSPCC’s infant and family team, are another example. The programme was developed in the United States and is now being piloted in the United Kingdom. A four-year evaluation of the programme in the US showed improved outcomes for children and adults in all groups that undertook the programme. I will be unable to address that point as fully as I should like in the time allotted, but one of the motivations behind the amendments I am speaking to—by the way, I am hugely indebted to the NSPCC for its assistance in this matter—is that some cases should be exempted from the limit from the outset. Although the Bill as drafted would allow for incremental eight-week extensions, practitioners in the field have warned that they would need to know at the beginning of proceedings how much time they have to work with the family, in order to secure the best possible outcome.
Equally worryingly, practitioners warn that social workers could be deterred from seeking extensions other than in highly exceptional circumstances, as the “specific justification” test in clause 14(7) may be perceived as a barrier in borderline cases. That is why amendment 5 would allow courts to exempt certain cases from the 26-week limit from the very start of proceedings if evidence relating to a planned intervention or programme requiring a longer period was presented to the court, or if the court considered it necessary to permit additional time to safeguard the child’s welfare.
Amendments 7 and 8 relate to clause 17, which introduces significant reforms to the way in which courts scrutinise care plans. I do not have time to go into the context; all I would say is that I, too, am disappointed that our time is limited today. These are very important matters. I have skimmed through what I was going to say—I am grateful that I was able to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker—and I know that the NSPCC and many other organisations will be bitterly disappointed that we have had to truncate such important debates in this way.
Mr Timpson
This group of amendments covers a wide range of issues relating to the care and protection of children. As I will be unable to address all the points made, I will endeavour to write to all hon. Members in response to their amendments and the questions they posed, particularly the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), who has been very convivial and constructive during the passage of this Bill, and my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who has raised a number of important areas of debate, particularly in making some powerful points about returning home from care. I will look at those points extremely carefully and am happy to discuss them with him on another occasion.
I want to focus on a number of issues about which I have some important points to make. They are: care leavers, young carers, fostering for adoption, child witnesses and sex and relationships education. On carer leavers, new clause 4 considers “staying put” arrangements, where care leavers live with their former foster carer after they have left care. Many hon. Members have expressed their support for new clause 4, and I would welcome the opportunity to discuss how we can extend those arrangements. The legislative framework relating to care leavers is comprehensive and clear. I have written to all directors of children’s services asking them to prioritise “staying put” arrangements. We have also issued practical guidance on tax and benefits issues. We are monitoring “staying put” arrangements and reviewing local progress through Ofsted inspections and feedback from care leaver groups. If no progress is being made, I will consider whether legislation is required, but I do not believe we should make that change only two years after changing the statutory framework.
On young carers, in Committee we heard heart-felt arguments about the need to do more for young carers. I promised to reflect carefully on the arguments for legislative change. Since then I have discussed the matter with the Minister for care services, my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), and we have agreed that our joint aim is to ensure that young carers are protected. We firmly believe that taking a “whole family” approach to the assessment of care needs will be the key to achieving just that. I have now given the matter careful thought and, with the changes being introduced by the Care Bill for adult carers, I am persuaded that the time is right to see what we can do to remove any barriers that may be preventing these vulnerable young people and their families from receiving the life-changing support they need.
I have asked officials to look at how the legislation for young carers might be changed so that rights and responsibilities are clearer to young carers and practitioners alike. We will also look at how we can ensure that children’s legislation works with adults’ legislation to support the linking of assessments, as set out in the Care Bill, to enable “whole family” approaches. We will ensure that interested parties, including hon. Members, are consulted on that work.
There is a strong consensus about the policy intention behind fostering for adoption: that children should be placed as early as possible in a stable placement. Amendment 33 would mean that clause 1 would bite too early for concurrent planning. I listened to the concerns raised in Committee about the impact on kinship carers, but there is no intention that kinship carers should be overlooked as a consequence of this clause. I am pleased to reassure hon. Members that I am giving consideration to amending the clause to be clearer that local authorities must first consider placing a child with relatives and friends before they consider a “fostering for adoption” placement. This is an issue that I expect to be returned to in the other place, and I know that Members will welcome that reassurance. I know that hon. Members will also be pleased by today’s announcement from the Secretary of State for Justice on child witnesses. That represents an important move forward.
On personal, social and health education, we all recognise that this is an important issue, but we do not have unanimity on what constitutes the best approach. The expectation that all schools should teach PSHE is outlined in the introduction to the framework of the proposed new national curriculum. It is not a statutory requirement, however, as we strongly believe that teachers need the flexibility to use their professional judgment to decide when and how best to provide PSHE in their local circumstances. The Government do not believe that the right of parents to withdraw their children from sex and relationships education should be diminished in the way proposed. We see no need to amend the existing legislation, which provides a clear and workable model for schools and parents. Moreover, the new provision would place a disproportionate burden on teachers, who would have to make and defend decisions on what constitutes “sufficient maturity”—
Mr Timpson
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
Let me begin by thanking all Members who served on the Public Bill Committee. The debate was constructive and—dare I say it?—mature, exceedingly thorough and all the more encouraging for being the first such Committee for many of the newly elected Members on both sides of the House. We had 19 sittings, 397 amendments were tabled, and every issue was thoughtfully scrutinised. I am sure that we all agree with the hon. Members for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) and for Wigan (Lisa Nandy)—I extend to them my personal thanks for their responsible and fair-minded contributions —who told us that it was
“a hard-working, good-natured and somewhat consensual Committee. At times, we have agreed more than we have disagreed, which is for the good… the legislation we are shaping is extremely important for millions of our most vulnerable children now and in future.”––[Official Report, Children and Families Public Bill Committee, 25 April 2013; c. 815.]
I would also like to thank the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), who has led jointly on the Bill with great aplomb in this House and before the four Select Committees that considered much of the Bill during pre-legislative scrutiny, even when the odd stray nut sought to scupper her endeavours.
The debates in Committee and today have reflected the importance of the issues the Bill seeks to address. It seeks to improve the lives of some of our most vulnerable children. Improving the life chances of every child, whatever their background, by putting their needs first in all that we do is at the heart of the Government’s agenda.
Mr Timpson
I will take a brief intervention, but I am mindful of the time and know that other Back Benchers wish to speak.
Hugh Bayley
I, too, am mindful of the time, so I am grateful to the Minister for giving way—I understand why he could not do so during his speech on Report. I rise on behalf of a constituent who fosters three children. As a consequence of the Government’s decision to exempt only one bedroom from the bedroom tax for foster carers, she is required to pay £14 a week to carry on fostering. If she moved into smaller accommodation, she could foster only one of those three children, and there would be a cost of about £3,000 a week if the children went into care. Will he, together with the Minister responsible for welfare reform, look at the issue and reflect on whether they can give a further concession?
Mr Timpson
Of course I am happy to look at the specific case the hon. Gentleman raises in the context of the changes that have been made. As he and Opposition Front Benchers will know, I have worked hard, both before coming into government and since, to try to ensure that foster carers are given the best possible support in their endeavours, because we want to encourage more people to foster, and we know from the research we have done that many more would like to take up that opportunity. The Welfare Minister, Lord Freud, and I have written jointly to all local authorities to explain the importance of this, with regard to both the single room subsidy and making the discretionary housing fund available to foster carers where appropriate. We have committed to an independent review of that progress, and I will be keeping a keen and close eye on how that develops. I know that the Fostering Network, which has done some excellent work on the issue, will also take a lead in ensuring that we have a clear understanding of the impact of the changes.
The Bill will overhaul services for vulnerable children and support strong families. It will raise aspirations and place children and young people at the heart of decision making and support in the SEN system. It will reduce delays in the adoption system. It is part of a wider set of reforms to improve children’s services so that everyone involved in a vulnerable child’s life—teachers, social workers, health professionals and the police—has a proper sense of responsibility for the child’s prospects, not just focusing on their precise duties and whether they have followed the correct processes and ticked all the boxes, but looking at the child’s overall welfare. That means refocusing the system on the child’s needs in a child’s time frame, foremost among which must be the need to keep the child safe from harm.
We often hear that the care system fails children, that it damages and betrays them. Too often it does, but, as I know from my family and the fostering and adopting we have undertaken, it can also transform lives. As the recent research report “Safeguarding Children Across Services” pointed out, when compared with those who are reunited with their birth families, the majority of maltreated children do better in care or accommodation. Looked-after children can and do achieve in care in a stable placement. We know, for example, that there is a marked correlation between the length of time in care and the stability of placements and achieving good educational outcomes at GCSE, yet we must remain resolute in ensuring that the child’s best interests, not administrative or personnel considerations, are always at the heart of the system.
Delays in care and adoption services mean that it currently takes, on average, 21 months to place a child. Those delays damage a child’s development and reduce their chances of finding the love and stability they need with a new family. The Bill will help to sweep away such barriers through measures designed to speed up the adoption process, help recruit more potential adopters and improve the support they can receive. It will enable children to be placed earlier with their potential adopters.
Building on the family justice review, we are tackling unacceptable delays in the courts, ensuring that children’s best interests remain at the heart of decision making, and encouraging parents to resolve disputes outside the court where possible. By introducing a 26-week time limit for care and supervision proceedings, the Bill will ensure that courts focus on the essentials and that the most vulnerable children are not damaged further by unnecessary drift and delay. This is already having an impact in our courts. As the president of the family division recently wrote to everyone involved in the family courts system:
“We must get away from existing practice. All too often, and partly as a result of previous initiatives, local authorities are filing enormously voluminous materials, which—and this is not their fault—are not merely far too long; too often they are narrative and historical, rather than analytical...I want to send out a clear message: local authority materials can be much shorter...and...should be more focused on analysis.”
We also want to improve support for children remaining in local authority care, and so the Bill will make the virtual school head a statutory role in local authorities. This sends out the strongest possible signal about the priority we attach to the educational attainment of looked after children. Changes to the Office of the Children’s Commissioner will help the commissioner act as a strong advocate for children, promoting and protecting their rights. For children and young people with special educational needs, the Bill will introduce a single system from birth to age 25; new education, health and care plans which ensure that health, education and social care are planned around the needs of the child or young person; new rights and protections for 16 to 25-year-olds in further education and training; and a clear focus on outcomes, including independent living and paid employment.
The most frequent complaint I have heard from parents about SEN is that the current system is opaque and inflexible, leaving children and families to battle for access to services in a fog of bureaucracy. By requiring local authorities to publish a clear and transparent local offer, families will, in future, know what support is available in their area and how to access it.
Crucially, the duty on clinical commissioning groups to secure provision of health services as part of an EHC plan strengthens the Bill’s creation of a more integrated approach to care and support, and it has been widely and warmly welcomed by the SEN charitable sector. I want to express my gratitude to the Secretary of State for Health and his ministerial team for their willingness to help to push the boundaries towards better health integration in SEN service provision.
We are committed to reforming child care substantially to increase the availability of high-quality, affordable provision. The enabling measures in the Bill will offer greater choice and flexibility for providers and parents. We are introducing shared parental leave, giving working parents greater choice over who looks after their child in the first year and offering fathers the opportunity to be more involved in caring for their children. Together with the extension of the right to request flexible working to all employees, these measures will make the labour market more flexible, equitable and family friendly.
We all share an ambition for this Bill to make a tangible, lasting difference to the lives of children and families. Many in this House and beyond have made important points about how we ensure that the Bill really achieves that. I am grateful for that valuable expertise and measured consideration. I particularly thank the Education Committee, the Justice Committee, the Adoption Legislation Committee and the Joint Committee on Human Rights for their valuable scrutiny of the Bill. I am grateful to the Office of the Children’s Commissioner for its children’s rights impact assessment and to the children’s rights director for his superb version of the Bill for children, which is so jargon-free that it should make all of us in Westminster and Whitehall blush. I thank the many organisations that gave and submitted evidence in Committee and worked with me, my officials and hon. Members across the House to make sure that the many important issues that the Bill touches on are properly understood in terms of its content and implementation.
Throughout the development and passage of the Bill, we have listened and made changes so that the Bill we now pass to the other place is an improved one. This is a detailed Bill and it is vital that we take time to consider the points made and get the legislation and implementation right. Therefore, as I indicated earlier, we will consider some key issues over the summer and hope that progress can be made in the other place. In particular, we will look at these issues: clarifying whether, before local authorities can consider a fostering for adoption placement, they must consider placing the child with a relative or friend; introducing new safeguards through regulations to ensure that a local authority notifies the child’s birth parents when considering a fostering for adoption placement; seeing what more we can do to improve outcomes for young carers, ensuring that our approach complements the changes being introduced through the Care Bill; and identifying further improvements to the support that young offenders with SEN receive in custody.
As the Bill moves on to the other place, I am confident that it will be viewed as a Bill that all of us in this House can look back on, in whole or in part, and feel sure that we did right by giving our most vulnerable children, who all too often have the weakest voice, the chance to be heard and respected and the prospect of a better future. I commend the Bill to the House.
Mrs Hodgson
I begin by thanking my Front-Bench colleague my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) for her excellent scrutiny of those sections of the Bill that she has been responsible for shadowing, including sections that do not usually come under her policy remit. I also thank my hon. Friends the Members for Corby (Andy Sawford) and for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) for supporting us during this process, and our colleagues on the Bill Committee, my hon. Friends the Members for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), for North West Durham (Pat Glass), for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) and for Croydon North (Mr Reed).
Given how constructive and good-natured the Committee was—for the most part, at least—I also thank its Government members, many of whom made valuable contributions. I thank the Minister for children and families, the Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson), and the Minister for employment relations, the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), for their helpful and thorough responses to our many questions.
I also thank the staff in all our offices, who have ensured that we have been fully briefed and prepared for our many hours of debate on the Bill, and the representatives of all the sector bodies and lobby groups for their help.
Finally, I thank the Clerks and the Library staff for their expertise, which has supported us in our understanding and scrutiny of the Bill, and for ensuring the smooth running of the whole process.
On Second Reading, my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan rightly laid down Labour’s key test for this Bill’s reforms: will they result in better outcomes for the children they seek to help? The many areas where we agree with the Government that they will help, and the few areas where we think that they will not help enough or at all, have all been covered extensively since February’s Second Reading debate.
On special educational needs, as I said earlier, while we support the vast majority of what the Government are doing, concerns remain about the accountability of local services to families, the potential to exacerbate the postcode lottery and how some of the more ambitious reforms, such as personal budgets, will actually work in practice. Of course, the main concern is that the benefits that these reforms should bring are not denied to the children and young people with special educational needs who find themselves in the youth justice system.
On parts 1 and 2, while we do not disagree with much of what the Government are trying to do, we remain deeply concerned about what the Bill will mean in practice for children in care in the family courts. We urge Ministers to consider what the reforms will mean in practice for social workers who are overburdened and families who have lost access to legal aid.
We believe that the Government are mistaken in not ensuring that ethnicity is still considered in adoption placements—not as an overriding consideration, but as one of the many things that matter to children—or that courts consider sibling arrangements when scrutinising children’s care plans. Although we agree that we should remove needless delay from the courts, we are concerned that many of the Bill’s measures place speed above getting it right for children.
It is a great shame that the Government refused to structure this debate in a way that would have given us time to debate all the issues, and that we did not have two days to consider such a large and wide-ranging Bill that contains important measures relating to vulnerable children. Nor have we had time to do justice to our new clauses or that tabled by the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), which seek to improve the lives of young carers.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the most important thing as the Bill progresses is to make sure—it is important that the Minister agrees with us on this—that the adult who is assessed receives sufficient support so that the young person does not experience negative outcomes? The support should not impact on their education or quality of life. That is the key point behind new clause 5 and it is a pity that we were not able to debate it today.
Mrs Hodgson
I agree with my hon. Friend and will probably repeat some of the points that she has just made. I commend her for her tireless and excellent campaigning on behalf of young carers since she promoted her private Member’s Bill. I know that she will continue that work when this Bill goes to the other place.
As I pointed out to the Minister for children and families in Committee, the Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who has responsibility for care, promised my hon. Friend and those of us who were present for the Second Reading of her private Member’s Bill last September that young carers would be provided for in the Children and Families Bill, yet we are still waiting to see what those provisions will be. The Minister gave some warm assurances on that issue during his closing remarks, so we look forward to seeing it addressed in the Bill.
Mr Timpson
Just to clarify, if the hon. Lady looks back at Hansard she will see that just before the end of Report I gave some strong indications of the direction of travel I am persuaded to take with regard to young carers.
Mrs Hodgson
That is very good; I will do that.
At the very least, we need to ensure that agencies that come into contact with families know how to spot a child who might be providing care and how to refer that child and their family to the support that exists for the majority of young carers. That needs to happen in order to address the much poorer outcomes that such children have because of their responsibilities.
As the Children’s Society discovered recently in its “Hidden from View” report, about one in 20 young carers misses school because of caring responsibilities. Young carers attain the equivalent of nine grades lower than their peers at GCSE level and are consequently more likely than other young people to be classed as not in education, employment or training after school. There are also health implications. Young carers are one and a half times more likely to have a special educational need, a long-standing illness or a disability than their peers. Those who are dedicated to looking after someone else often do not take good enough care of themselves. That is particularly true of young carers.
There are 166,363 young carers in England according to the latest census data, which were released on 16 May this year. That is 166,363 young people who stand a much poorer chance of reaching their educational potential and a much greater chance of suffering poor health or being a NEET. It does not need to be that way. I know that the Minister has outlined measures, but he could make the changes to the Bill that we have suggested in the other place or bring forward his own changes to ensure that those young carers are given the support that they need.
The Minister will not be surprised that I am also keen for progress to be made on ensuring that children’s centres are better able to identify and help every family in their area who needs it by adopting the measures tabled by the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom). She has not made a speech today and I hope that she has a chance to do so in a moment. Those measures would require NHS trusts to share the live births register with Sure Start outreach workers and would roll out trials of births being registered in children’s centres. That would mean that all parents would have to visit their local children’s centre, where they would be shown all the opportunities and services that are available to them and their child. That would contribute greatly to ensuring that we reach out to and help the most vulnerable families and, once again, improve the outcomes of the children within them.
I know that many hon. Members are keen to speak, so I will bring my remarks to a conclusion. We will not oppose the Bill on Third Reading and we are as keen as Ministers for it to make speedy progress to the other place. However, I hope that the House and the Government are left in no doubt that there are a number of issues that my noble colleagues and, I am sure, peers on all sides in the other place will revisit. We are expecting big things from Ministers before then and I sincerely hope that they do not disappoint.
Most notably, we want measures to ensure that support is not denied to young offenders with special educational needs and measures to increase the chance of young carers being identified and given the support that they need in order to improve their outcomes. We hope that the Government reconsider their position on PSHE and, in particular, sex and relationships education, and that they bring forward measures to make it compulsory before the Bill reaches the other place.
I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash) for her superb leadership through the all-party parliamentary group on HIV and AIDS in pursuing education on HIV and AIDS. One in four young people leaves school without being taught about HIV. The work that she has done in that area is commendable.
If all the issues raised by Her Majesty’s Opposition and hon. Members from all parts of the House in the preceding debate are addressed, the Minister will be able to answer the question posed by my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan on Second Reading and be confident that the Bill will improve the outcomes for millions of children, young people and families for a long time to come. In the hope that those improvements will be made, the Bill proceeds with our blessing.
Mr Speaker
Order. At least three Members still wish to speak and I hope that they all have the chance to do so.
Dan Rogerson
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson). I pay tribute to the way in which the Bill has largely been approached by shadow Ministers and the constructive way in which she offers her blessing as it proceeds to another place. Ministers have worked hard to make the case for all the important measures in the Bill and have done so successfully.
I was not a member of the Public Bill Committee. Those places rightly went to the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), because of her ministerial responsibilities and my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke), who is not in her place but has a long-standing interest in these matters.
The Bill will make a huge, positive difference to many young people’s lives and those of their families, and bring together the responsibilities of different agencies that are vital to ensuring that those young people have the best possible start in life. I pay tribute to earlier work done on the Bill by my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), and to the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) for what he did when he was in office.
The Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), was at pains to point out that she still believes altering ratios in child care is the right thing to do although there was not a majority across Government for that. Similarly, the Liberal Democrats remain committed to progress on sex and relationships education, although again there is no majority across the Government. It is a measure of how the coalition is holding together by concentrating on where we agree and such issues as supporting adopters and young people with special educational needs that we have made such progress, but I know our noble Friends in another place will want to make a further contribution and perhaps even improve the Bill slightly—if that is possible—before it makes it on to the statute book. I congratulate all those involved in getting the Bill to its current position, and I thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to catch your eye.
Andrea Leadsom
Surely this has been Parliament at its best. It has been a huge privilege to be involved with the Bill Committee, and I really think that life is about to get a whole lot better for some of the most vulnerable young people in our society. On that point, I pay tribute to all those who have worked so hard to make this such a non-partisan and co-operative experience for us all.
I draw the Minister’s attention again to the point about the opportunity to introduce the registration of births in children’s centres, and specifically to Bench Hill children’s centre in Manchester, which has been offering registration of births for 10 years. As a result, its access to all new families in that area has improved exponentially, not just in offering services but in the re-engagement rates of families with those services. That is incredibly important, and I pay tribute to the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson) for providing the resources in his Department to investigate how offering birth registration in children’s centres can make a fundamental difference to the support offered to new families.
Mr Buckland
I will be brief. I was accused of being a little less than brief earlier, but I mean what I say, and I think we have done an admirable job in scrutinising this Bill and that we send it to the other place in a very good state. There is still work to be done, and the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson) and I have had keen debates about the Bill over the past months. I was delighted to hear his remarks in response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), who spoke on the young carers amendment tabled in my name together with those of other hon. Members, and to which the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) referred.
Barbara Keeley
The hon. Gentleman is generous in giving way as time is short. Does he agree it is important that young carers get a signal from the last few minutes of this debate that the importance of the work they do is recognised? He understands, as I do, that there was a feeling that those carers felt let down and ignored by the Bill.
Mr Buckland
I think the message came out loud and clear from the Under-Secretary that the needs of those people will not be forgotten or neglected, and that they will be enabled to play their part as mainstream members of society. That is what it is all about; it is not just box-ticking but about enabling those people to take their place in society and have all the advantages of their peers who do not have caring responsibilities.
I thank the Every Disabled Child Matters campaign and the Special Educational Consortium for the work done not only with Ministers but with me and other colleagues to marshal arguments in Committee and at this stage. Although those in the other place will still have work to do, there is no doubt that we have sent them a substantial body of evidence that this House of Commons is more than capable of doing justice and giving proper scrutiny to the most important Bill in a generation for those with special educational needs and young people who, through no fault of their own, face greater challenges than the rest of us in our society.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)
I am delighted to conclude the debate on Third Reading—the Bill is a joint effort between the Department for Education and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. It is fair to say that the BIS measures have not had the same prominence or debate, which is perhaps a mark of the remarkable consensus on them in general.
I thank all members of the Public Bill Committee—the debate in Committee was positive—all those who contributed to the consultations and the formation of the policies in the Bill, and the Committee Chairs. It is important for those Ministers who came to the Bill part-way through its passage to recognise that our predecessors had significant roles in developing the policy. They also deserve thanks, as do officials within BIS—we have a fantastic team, particularly on shared parental leave and flexible leave, of Sarah, Andrew, Ruth, Kim, Chris, James and Chris. All those who have supported them have been wonderful. The officials who developed the children’s guide to the Bill deserve particular thanks. That is an exemplar of how we can open up law making in this country and make it understandable, and proves that age need be no barrier to that whatsoever.
The Bill will help children and families in a wide range of ways. It will modernise systems for the 21st century on adoption and fostering, special educational needs and family justice, and strengthen the Children’s Commissioner. There are also proposals to improve affordable child care. As hon. Members have said, this wide range of proposals will make a difference to people’s lives.
As a BIS Minister, I am delighted to take forward measures in the Bill on shared parental leave and flexible working. On shared parental leave, it is important that we shatter the outdated stereotypes of how parents divide their responsibilities—the assumption is that men are the breadwinners and that a woman’s role is to stay at home and look after children. Those decisions are up to individual parents, who will work out the right solution and answers for them. It is not the Government’s job to get in the way and tell them how to do it.
The flexibility of the Bill will enable more dads to play a bigger role in the early weeks and months of their child’s life. We know from research that that has a positive impact on child development and later measures. The provisions will also enable mums better to combine their work responsibilities with their parenting, which is so important given the contribution women can make to the economy, which was highlighted in the excellent Women’s Business Council report last week.
The right to request flexible working was introduced by the previous Government, and this Government rightly want to extend it to everyone. That will bring huge benefits to the economy. Employers benefit from more motivated and productive staff, and from lower recruitment and retention costs. Employees benefit because they are more in control of their time and more able to juggle their responsibilities, whether caring, volunteering or other outside interests. It is important for other groups of workers, such as older workers and people with disabilities, who can find a shorter, part-time or more flexible work pattern incredibly helpful to their ability to continue within the labour market and to contribute to the economy.
Given that wide range of measures, it is incredibly important that we are able to pass the Bill on Third Reading. It will now go to the other place, where I am sure there will be a wide range of debates. I look forward to watching with interest which issues it chooses to develop, but the consultation process in advance of the Bill has been hugely beneficial and has got it into an excellent state. The House can be proud of the scrutiny we have given the Bill and the work we have done on it. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.
Court of Justice of the European Union
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
I beg to move,
That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 7013/13, the draft Council Decision increasing the number of Advocates-General of the Court of Justice of the European Union and, in accordance with Section 10 of the European Union Act 2011, approves Her Majesty’s Government’s intention to support the adoption of that draft Council Decision.
As you will be aware, Mr Speaker, this proposal is subject to the European Act 2011, which means that before Ministers can take a position in the Council on the proposed appointment of three additional advocates-general to the European Court of Justice, parliamentary approval must be secured for the United Kingdom’s position. That is the reason for today’s debate.
I believe that it is in the interests of this country for justice in the European Union to be delivered through the Court promptly and effectively. It is particularly important for British businesses with pan-European interests whose opportunities for business may well depend on clarity on the impact of European law.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way so early. I would just question whether we get justice from the European Court.
Mr Lidington
As with any other court here in the United Kingdom, I am sure there will be judgments with which my hon. Friend and I might have quarrels and wish that learned judges had come to other opinions. Where I would respond robustly to him is to say that, as far as I can tell, in coming to their decisions the justices of the European Union Courts take very seriously their duty to apply the law as it is found in the treaties and in secondary European legislation. The appointment of judges at the EU Courts is subject to approval by an expert panel. Indeed, to be eligible to serve as a justice in the European Court, the man or woman in question must either have served in a senior judicial office in their home country or be of sufficient standing in the law to be regarded as capable of exercising that kind of responsibility.
I believe that the measure we are discussing will provide quicker and more efficient justice within the European Union. The proposal is to increase the number of advocates-general to nine from 1 July 2013 and to 11 from 7 October 2015. The first advocate-general would be a permanent Polish advocate-general. Under declaration 38 in article 252 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, member states agreed in 2007 that if there were an increase in advocates-general, Poland would have a permanent advocate-general and no longer take part in the rotation of advocates-general. This step would bring Poland into line with the other big six member states, including the United Kingdom, which all already have a permanent advocate-general. An additional two advocates-general would increase the existing rotation system from three to five. Under current arrangements, we would expect the first two additional advocates-general appointed in October 2015 to be Czech and Danish.
In the 2011 report on the work load of the European Court of Justice, the House of Lords recommended that the number of advocates-general be increased. Since 2011, the Lords have repeated that recommendation several times, including in their follow-up report this year, and called for the increase to be implemented without delay. Last night, in its section 10 debate on this matter, the House of Lords approved the draft Council decision and Members of their lordships’ House spoke positively about the impact that additional advocates-general would have on the efficient functioning of the courts.
The role of advocates-general is to produce non-legally binding opinions for the Court of Justice to assist it in reaching its judgments.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again. In reference to the House of Lords, the 2011 report questioned whether the quality of the advocates-general would be high enough. I wonder, therefore, what evidence has encouraged them to change their minds to be confident in the quality of the people who may be appointed.
Mr Lidington
I want to come on to the question of quality and the article 255 panel later. If my hon. Friend is dissatisfied at that point, then by all means I invite him to seek to intervene again. However, I think perhaps that it is best if I come to that passage at the appropriate time.
I was talking about the role of advocates-general. They produce their non-legally binding opinions in about half of all cases, particularly in those that raise a new point of law. There is no appeals process, of course, so the additional reasoned submissions help the Court to provide effective justice. Given that the number of cases before it continues to rise, the Government are satisfied that there is a need for additional advocates-general to process better the Court’s work load.
The opinions that advocates-general issue are a key element in the efficiency of the Court. As Sir Konrad Schiemann stated in his evidence to the House of Lords this year, advocate-general opinions significantly shorten the time occupied by judges in agreeing a judgment and improve the quality of the Court’s judgments. The opinions assist the Court with its own deliberations, because the Court can then test its own views against the detailed reasoning of the advocate-general conclusions. It is particularly useful in the EU Court because, unlike the practice in our own Supreme Court or Court of Appeal, it has to reach a consensus for its ruling—the possibility of separate dissenting opinions from different judges does not exist at the European level.
As well as contributing to the speed of judgments, advocates-general also improve the quality of justice dispensed by the Court. The opinions are detailed and so provide a greater insight into the approach ultimately taken by the Court, regardless of whether it agrees or disagrees in the final decision with the recommendation of the advocate-general. That means that those opinions are valuable in maintaining the consistency of the Court’s case law.
It is important that the Court is efficient, because of the impact that its judgments can have on British citizens and businesses operating in the European single market in particular. A classic example was the case brought by the National Farmers Union in the context of the BSE crisis—NFU v. Secrétariat Général du Gouvernement—against France’s refusal to lift the beef ban on UK imports. The Court ruled that since EU legislation laid down the necessary rules for the protection of public health, France was not entitled to rely on the public health exception in then article 30 of the treaty establishing the European Community to prevent the resumption of beef and veal imports from the UK. I am sure that the House needs no reminder that the beef industry was worth more than £430 million in exports to the British economy in 2011—the last year for which we have figures. Another recent example was the ruling of the Court in 2011 in the case of DHL v. Chronopost, which provides certainty for trademark owners on the extent to which a Community trademark owner could secure EU-wide relief based on action in only one member state.
The impact of the EU Courts is not limited to cases in which UK businesses are directly involved. The outcome of other cases can have significant benefits for the UK, directly or indirectly. For example, there was a case on whether EU legislation allowed for prescribing incentive schemes—arrangements to encourage doctors to prescribe cheaper generic medicines. Adopting the approach suggested by the British Government in their recommendations, the decision of the Court resulted in an estimated saving to our Department of Health of nearly £400 million.
Given the current number of advocates-general and the increasing work load of the Court, the individual advocates-general have been under pressure. There is no single reason why the Court’s work load has been increasing over the years. In 2012, 632 new cases were brought before it and it completed only 527. In 2011, 688 new cases were brought before it and it completed 554. These were the two busiest years so far recorded in the Court’s history. In 2012, the backlog of cases had risen to 886—up from 849 12 months before.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
First, I congratulate the Minister for Europe on his French pronunciation, which I thought was A*, as they say.
I am in favour of more judges, as are the Government, but is the Minister satisfied that having more judges will result in quicker decisions? He knows that one of our concerns is that it takes too long to get judgments. Is he satisfied that by putting these extra judges on the Court, the decisions will be handed out quicker?
Mr Lidington
We are talking here not about additional judges but about additional advocates-general. As I have argued, the advocates-general play an important role in assisting the judges of the Court in coming to a conclusion and in analysing the legal arguments in question. Clearly, I cannot give a 100% guarantee from this Dispatch Box, but I pray in aid the evidence of Sir Konrad Schiemann and others from the Court who have argued consistently that the provision of additional advocates-general would help them to address the backlog, in part by spreading out the preparatory work of legal analysis and the provision of a learned opinion amongst a slightly greater number of expert advocates-general than is available to the Court now.
As the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz)—one of my predecessors in this role—will know, the enlargement of the EU over the last decade following the accession of a large number of new member states has inevitably led over time to a greater number of cases being brought, simply because there are more citizens and more businesses that might be in a position to bring a case before the European Courts.
Keith Vaz
I am grateful to the Minister, who is generous in giving way for a second time. That is why I was interested in the fact that a Polish advocate-general was to be appointed, because one of the problems we have is that Poland has been issuing more European arrest warrants than anyone else. This may, for example, eventually lead to a backlog in cases here.
Mr Lidington
The right hon. Gentleman may have an opportunity tomorrow to express his views about the European arrest warrant and the attitude taken by the Polish courts. It is fair to say that Poland is as equally entitled to have its own permanent advocate-general as Spain, Italy, France, Germany or the UK. Everybody round the table accepts that there are six member states whose populations give them a certain priority when it comes to such appointments. I emphasise again that the declaration that promised the first new advocate-general to Poland was agreed by every member state, large and small.
The greater efficiency of the Court is going to require more than just the appointment of three new advocates-general. I am happy to concede that point to the right hon. Member for Leicester East. The House will be familiar with the reforms that the Court itself has introduced in the last two years, including increasing the number of judges in the Grand Chamber from 13 to 15; abolishing unnecessary procedural elements such as the requirement to read the report of the hearing in full, and thus the need to produce a report; provisions allowing for the appointment of temporary judges to the civil service tribunal; and establishing a new office of vice-president in the Court of Justice and the General Court. I am sure that there will be other opportunities for the House to debate proposed changes to the European Courts and proposed measures to secure greater efficiencies in the future.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Is the Minister aware of occasions when other European countries have not been anxious or zealous in enforcing the Court decision, or have delayed doing so? Does the UK push through Court decisions while other countries disregard them?
Mr Lidington
I am always willing to say that if any right hon. or hon. Member, or any UK business, can come forward with evidence that another member state is refusing to implement European law—whether that is law as interpreted by the Courts or the law as enacted through the European legislative process—we will be happy to champion those British citizens or companies with the relevant institutions. As I am sure the hon. Gentleman will know, once law has been established and clarity assured by a judgment from the Court, it is then for the European Commission to initiate infraction proceedings if a member state fails to implement the European Court’s rulings. It is fair to say that sometimes there is argument after the judgment about the exact meaning—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We are drifting from the question of advocates-general. Mr Shannon has tempted you, Minister for Europe, and you should know better. Back on course!
Mr Lidington
If the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) applies to Mr Speaker for an Adjournment debate, he and I might have the opportunity to explore those matters in the detail that he so ardently desires.
Let me return to the issue we are debating and the criticisms the European Scrutiny Committee has raised. Let me turn first to the important issue of funding. Although broadly supporting the proposal, the Government are clear that any additional advocates-general should not and need not result in an increase in the Court’s budget. The appointment of the new post holders and their support staff should lead to a relatively small additional cost of about €4 million a year, which the Court can meet from within its existing budget. Its budget was more than €354 million for 2013, and the Court has underspent by more than the cost of the additional advocates-general in each of the last three years. In the current economic climate, there is an imperative on all the EU’s institutions, including the Court, to find ways to reduce their administrative costs.
As I set out in paragraph 12 of my explanatory memorandum to the European Scrutiny Committee, the UK is prepared to submit a minute statement in Council to set out our expectation that the increase is cost-neutral. If necessary, we will do that during voting on the Council decision. As I know the House understands, a minute statement in itself will not be enough to guarantee cost-neutrality, but would be a clear statement of the United Kingdom’s position ahead of the separate financial negotiations next year on the annual budget. Indeed, the minute statement is not intended to secure budget neutrality at this stage, but is intended to signal clearly the beginning of our negotiating position for next year.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way again. The agreement on the advocates-general is by unanimity whereas the agreement on the budget is by qualified majority vote. Are we therefore not getting it the wrong way round by agreeing to the increase in one before the debate on the other? Should we not delay our agreement by unanimity until we have the budget that we want?
Mr Lidington
These are two separate decisions that have two different processes. We are indeed talking about a decision that is taken by unanimity. Annual budgets are what will determine the total budget of the Court for 2014 and subsequent years. Those annual budgets will have to be agreed within the ceilings to commitments and payments that are set out in the multi-annual financial framework that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and other Heads of Government negotiated in February this year, and which I hope is approaching the final stages of negotiation with the European Parliament.
Delay of the kind that my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) suggests would not get us very far. The Government’s view is that there is a persuasive case for the extra appointments to be made. The way in which EU finances are organised means that the negotiations on the annual budget will determine the total budget available to the Court. From that budget, the Court will have to meet its costs under various headings of expenditure, including this small one.
I point out to my hon. Friend that the United Kingdom is not alone in expecting the Court to absorb the costs of the additional advocates-general. We are one of a blocking minority of budget-disciplined net-contributor member states that routinely votes against increases to the EU budget. We anticipate that that like-minded group will take the same view on any request to increase the Court’s budget to accommodate the new advocates-general. The Prime Minister’s recent success at the multi-annual framework negotiations should be an indication of how strongly the Government feel about budgetary savings.
The European Scrutiny Committee also asked me to outline the Government’s view of the manner of appointing advocates-general and my view of the calibre of the likely appointees. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset made a point about this in an earlier intervention. The article 255 panel gives an opinion on candidates’ suitability to perform the role of advocate-general. The Government consider that the panel plays a key role in making the judicial appointments process more transparent and helping to ensure that the chosen candidates are of a high quality. The UK was a key supporter of the creation of such a panel, and we have consistently supported the application of rigour in the judicial selection process. The article 255 panel is effective in its role of assessing the suitability of nominees to serve as judges and as advocates-general. To date, the panel has delivered 43 opinions, of which five were unfavourable. In each case, the opinions delivered by the panel have been followed by the Governments of member states. When the panel has been unhappy about the calibre of a particular nominee, that nominee has subsequently been withdrawn.
Mr Lidington
We have one member on the panel. There are members from different member states represented around the table. The panel has to be drawn from people who have the right kind of experience and expertise to make these assessments.
On the specific appointees for the additional advocates-general, we do not yet know who the candidates will be. Indeed, two of them will not be appointed until October 2015. It would not be right for me to comment on their calibre or to speculate about those individuals at this stage. That is the purpose of the expert panel.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
But does the Minister not agree that what we want is fewer judges because we want fewer cases? The judges we want are the ones who will uphold the sovereignty of national Parliaments on far more issues than is currently the case—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I have allowed the right hon. Gentleman to intervene on the Minister even though he only arrived in the Chamber three minutes ago. However, the debate is about advocates-general, not about judges.
Mr Lidington
I would say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) that we need less legislation at European level. We need legislation to be written as clearly as possible, so that there is less need for the arbitration of the Courts. Regarding some of his criticisms of the ambiguity and over-prescriptive nature of European law, I have to say that I have heard such criticism being made of United Kingdom Acts of Parliament as well from time to time. None of this is perfect. He might have missed the point that I made earlier in my speech that British business finds it helpful to have a European Court of Justice applying the rules of the single market with clarity and, one would hope, with fairness. There have been a number of leading cases in which the decisions of the European Courts have led to significant practical advantages and opportunities for United Kingdom businesses and business sectors.
I want to give a little additional information to the right hon. Member for Leicester East. I have been advised that Lord Mance is the United Kingdom’s member on the panel and that there are seven members of it in total. From memory, they are people who are selected on merit and who have held usually very senior judicial office, perhaps in the constitutional court or supreme court of their own country.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
I have just heard a muttering from behind me suggesting that Britain’s nomination is absolutely brilliant and there is no doubt about that. The problem is that many people involved in these things on behalf of Europe come from universities rather than real law. Where are the majority of them from in this instance?
Mr Lidington
I am happy to write to my hon. Friend with a list of the members of the article 255 panel and their qualifications and experience. I would rather not venture an opinion from memory, but they do have to be people who would be employed in their member states in selecting very senior judicial office holders.
It might be helpful if I now set out for the House the likely next steps for this draft Council decision, if it is approved by Parliament. The Court would like to have the first additional advocate-general, the Polish one, in post from 1 July this year and the other two from October 2015, when there will be a partial replacement of the members of the Court.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
If the Court hopes to have the Polish advocate-general appointed by 1 July, is there time for that person to be properly vetted by the article 255 panel?
Mr Lidington
As I was about to say, given that this request was only made by the Court on 16 January, and clearly a number of countries, including us, had to take forward the necessary domestic processes for approval, the 1 July date was always an ambitious timetable for the first advocate-general. In addition to our requirement for an affirmative debate in both Houses, Poland estimates that its own appointment process will take about four months.
I agree with my hon. Friend that it is important that the article 255 panel does its job properly and with due diligence. From what I know about the way it has operated in respect of other judicial appointments, I am very confident indeed that it will take that duty seriously and that, if it comes to a choice, it will regard exercising due diligence as more important than meeting any particular deadline.
The Government are still hopeful that if parliamentary approval is secured today, the Council will be able to approve the decision during the Irish presidency, which ends at the end of June this year. Member states are able to appoint the first advocate-general at any point after that and do not need to wait until October 2015, when the final two advocates-general will be added.
I hope that today’s debate will provide Members with the opportunity to consider this proposal fully, and that, having done so, they will agree with the Government that the addition of three advocates-general to the Court of Justice of the European Union is in the UK’s interests.
As I said at the start of my remarks, this is a new procedure for us. This is one of the provisions of the European Union Act 2011 and before Ministers can vote in Council, the Government must secure affirmative resolutions in each House of Parliament. It is one small but none the less significant element of the work of trying to secure greater oversight by Parliament of decisions taken by Ministers in Europe on behalf of this country, and therefore in a small way helps to increase the democratic accountability of the EU, a principle that this Government strongly support.
Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)
We welcome the opportunity to discuss the proposed increase in the number of advocates-general at the Court of Justice of the European Union. The Court performs a central role within the European Union. It has the responsibility of interpreting EU law and ensuring its equal application across the member states.
As the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) mentioned—the Minister also referred to this point—although it may be true that when Labour was in government we did not always agree with the Court’s rulings and sometimes found them problematic, the Court and indeed the General Court play a crucial role in upholding EU law as set out in the treaties, and in ensuring the effective functioning of the internal market in particular. ECJ rulings have proven successful in enforcing competition rules and in ruling against protectionism, which is to the benefit of British businesses and British consumers. It is therefore necessary that the Court has the capacity to carry out those important functions allocated to it under the treaties. In particular, it is important that it is able to issue judgments in an effective and timely manner.
As has been said, a significant backlog of cases continues to build and there are many reasons for that. As the Minister said last July, much of the recent delay at the European Courts is down to increased litigation by private parties, particularly on single market matters. In addition, the enlargements of the EU in 2004 and 2007 have brought a raft of new cases before the Court, substantially increasing its workload. That trend is likely to continue, as Croatia is to join in only a few weeks’ time, on 1 July. Unsurprisingly, these new member states have made greater use of the preliminary ruling procedure, which allows national courts to refer cases to the ECJ for guidance on EU law. Enlargement has also meant that there has been an increase in the number of appeals against decisions of the General Court which are taken to the ECJ. In 2008, just seven competition cases were appealed to the ECJ, whereas the figure had risen to 52 in 2012. Another factor is the changes introduced by the Lisbon treaty, particularly in the area of justice and home affairs. The ECJ now has enhanced responsibilities in that field, and the changes were not just prospective, but retrospective with regard to the body of law in this area already in place. Moreover, the increasing complexity of cases brought before the Court has added to the burden.
The cumulative effect of all those factors is that the advocates-general, in their current numbers, have sometimes been unable to deliver an opinion within an acceptable time limit. At present, as the Minister has explained, eight advocates-general advise the Court on all matters of European Union legislation. However, it is in only about 50% of cases that an advocate-general is able to issue an opinion. As has been pointed out in evidence given to the House of the Lords by a representative of the Council of Bars and Law Societies of Europe, the absence of an opinion by an advocate-general
“increases the risk of uneven or, on occasions, contradictory caselaw.”
So it would seem sensible to increase the number of advocates-general, which would in turn increase the capacity of the ECJ to process cases in a timely manner.
The Court proposes, and the Council has indicated it will agree to, an increase in the number of advocates-general from eight to 11, and the Minister has today reiterated the Government’s support for that change. As he has explained, the increase will be staggered, with one new advocate-general starting, we hope, on 1 July this year, and the other two appointed later. According to an explanatory memorandum from the Minister given to the European Scrutiny Committee in March, the proposed new advocates-general are predicted to cost an extra €4 million. We agree with him that at a time of greater public spending restraint and economic difficulty it is important that that money is found from within existing budgets.
The ECJ has a budget of almost €354 million for 2013, so it is to be expected that the money to pay for at least the first new advocate-general may be found without the need for an increase in the budget. Will the Minister update the House? He mentioned the negotiations in preparation for next year on the financial implications of this change. Will he say a little more about which allies the UK Government have found in other member states, and what he thinks the chances are of ensuring that the change is cost-neutral?
Both the European Court of Justice and the General Court have important responsibilities in terms of upholding not only EU legislation, but the four freedoms—freedom of movement of people, goods, capital and services. Just this year, the General Court ruled that in the event of the cancellation of an air flight, the carrier is required to provide compensation even when the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances such as the eruption of the volcano in Iceland in 2010. So the decisions of both the General Court and the European Court of Justice have implications for British business, British consumers and British workers, and in many cases those implications are positive.
The changes that we are debating in the motion will ensure that the European Court of Justice is better able to carry out those duties, so we are content to support it.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
I congratulate the Minister on the Bill he brought forward a year ago that allows us to hold this debate, which is crucial in ensuring that European matters are properly discussed. As I understand it, we are the only member state of the European Union that will have this type of debate to make this important decision.
Beyond that, I diverge from the Minister. I diverge from him particularly in his admiration for this Court. I do not believe it to be a just Court. We must always remember, Mr Deputy Speaker, that it was this Court that ruled in its own favour to increase its own pay, against one of the fundamental principles of justice—that a judge should not rule to his own advantage. So it is not a proper, just Court like the noble courts that we have in this land; it is a Court with a political agenda, which is always pushing for more integration, for more Europe, towards the federal superstate, which we in this House who value the sovereignty of Parliament and of the British people should treat with the greatest suspicion.
The Minister spoke of the rulings that have come down occasionally in our favour, and the costs that we have been saved; I think BSE and pharmaceuticals were the two specific examples that he gave. I hope he might consider doing a cost-benefit analysis of all the judgments delivered by the European Court of Justice, to decide whether it has saved us money, or whether overall it has cost the British taxpayer money, since we joined the European Union in 1972.
But let us come particularly to the increase in the number of advocates-general and what is being achieved by that. What we are really doing is contributing to the growth of the power, the bureaucracy, the size, of the superstate that the European Union has become. By making the European Court bigger and stronger and able to take on more cases, powers are more centred at the European level. They will have a greater ability to determine the law in this country. The efficiency of the European Court of Justice is something that should make people who are concerned about parliamentary sovereignty nervous, because the more efficient it can be, the more it can interfere with our laws and the more it can take power away from Westminster.
And then we look at the cost: the €4 million cost that will be added to the total cost of the European Court—the extraordinarily high cost that the European Court has to start with of over €350 million. I looked up briefly the cost of our own Supreme Court. It was estimated in 2009 to cost £13.5 million to run. Perhaps this is a case for privatisation to a British court, because if we can get justice in this country with our highest court for £13.5 million, I wonder what it is that requires €350 million to be spent at the European level.
In a letter, the Minister explained some of the extra costs. These grand panjandrums—these advocates-general —do not just get their pay and their staff; they have to have cars as well. It is all part of the great European gravy train, with cost being piled on cost. When unanimity is the issue, the British Government, rather than taking the opportunity to use their power to delay or stop something that the European Parliament, Commission and Court want, give in at an early stage, so the negotiating strength that we would have had when setting the budget is frittered away. I ask the Minister: what are we hoping to get in return for not using our veto?
In our relationship with Europe, when we are in a position of strength and we hold the good cards, do we play the ace of trumps? No, we do not; we play some lesser card that I would know more about if I were a better gambler. That is the error of our European relationship. We talk in this House about repatriating powers, but when we negotiate in Europe, we continue to give them away to allow the European centre to become stronger.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I am most apologetic for the fact that I was not here in the earlier part of the debate, but I did hurry into the Chamber. Has the hon. Gentleman ever read a reasoned submission by an advocate-general? Knowing him slightly as I do, and knowing the quality of his contributions to the House, I am convinced that he would be most impressed by the logic, intellect and reasoning in some of those submissions. I think that if he took the time to peruse them, he would support the motion.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to the hon. Lady, but she misses the point that I am trying to make, and evidently not making clearly enough. It is not an efficient, smooth-running European Court that I want, because that is at the heart of the political expansion and centralising power of the European Union. If we look at what the European Union has done, and how it has become an increasingly federalised system, we see that it has done so through the judgments of the European Court, which has increasingly ruled in favour of more Europe. It is a political Court, much as the United States Supreme Court was in the early 19th century. It is about bringing federalism to the peoples of Europe. I accept that it has some of the highest intellects as members; I would not begin to deny that. We have sent some very fine judges there, with prodigious brains, ability and intellect, but what they have done after getting there is take power away from the United Kingdom and this Parliament. That is what I most strongly object to, and I object to the Government not using their negotiating position to get something in return.
The Conservative part of this coalition is looking to a renegotiation, to repatriate powers, but at the same time, it is doing things that increase the power and authority of the European Court. That seems to me to be fundamentally a mistake.
Lady Hermon
I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene on him a second time. I listened carefully to his reply to my first intervention. May I ask him for a reply to the question that I asked: has he ever read a reasoned submission of an advocate-general?
Jacob Rees-Mogg
The hon. Lady asked me a question that went into sub-paragraphs on whether I was denying the great intellect of the advocates-general, which I think was at the heart of the matter, and I was saying that I admire their great intellect, but I do not want their great intellect deciding the rules of this country. I want the intellects of the British people, sending Members of Parliament to this House, to decide the laws of this country. I do not want rule by the cleverest continentals; I want rule by the good, honest, British—English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish—people, ensuring that this country is properly governed.
I want the Government to do what they said they were going to do in relation to increasing the number of judges when, in a letter of 27 July 2012, they said that the increase in judges should be part
“of a wider discussion on improving the efficiency of the Court and containing its cost.”
But now, less than a year later, we roll over and say, “Have a few more advocates-general because it will make you more efficient.” This cannot be the right negotiating stance to take. Again and again, it is more Europe, more advocates-general, more smart cars for them to drive round in, more cost to the British taxpayer—a very high cost—and instead of saying, “This must change; we will change it; powers must be repatriated,” we roll over and wait for our tummies to be tickled. I do not want my tummy tickled and I do not want more advocates-general.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I do not know whether that is an invitation for me to cross the Floor and tickle the tummy of the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), although I would love to do it in normal circumstances. It is always a pleasure to follow him because he speaks so powerfully about these issues and studies them so carefully that he knows that a few months ago the Government promised to look carefully at the way in which the Court operates.
I will be brief because I promised the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) that I would be, and we have an opportunity to discuss other European issues tomorrow. I welcome the fact that we are having so many discussions about Europe on the Floor of the House. That takes me to my first point, which is how much I agree with the hon. Member for North East Somerset about how important it is that we discuss such issues on the Floor of the House, even though the attendance is not quite what we would have liked. [Interruption.] The Government Whip reminds me that it is the quality that counts, not the numbers. It is indeed.
The Minister said that this was not additional expenditure because it was to be found from the European Court’s existing budget and because the European Court had underspent. If indeed the European Court has underspent, I would like to know what encouragement the Government have given it to ensure that rather than appoint more advocates-general the money is used to make it more efficient. The fact that it has been unable to use the underspend to improve its efficiency is clear from the considerable time it has taken to decide a number of important cases. Will the Minister explain what steps the Government have taken over the last 12 months to ensure that the Court becomes more efficient, because it has more money available to do so?
I fully support Poland getting the new advocate-general seat. As the Minister’s predecessor, I was involved in the enlargement process. We always thought, and thought correctly, that, given its population, Poland would want to take its place as one of the big countries of Europe. I am glad that we are sticking to the agreement that we made that Poland should have this additional post. However, I am not sure that the Minister told us who would get the other two vacancies, and how that would be decided. If they are up for grabs, so to speak, and bearing in mind the importance of the enlargement process, perhaps it would be a good idea, rather than offer them to other countries that are already represented on the Court, to offer them to countries that have joined because of the enlargement process. One of the most important outcomes of enlargement is that we make representation in the European Union wider.
Mr Lidington
I can give the right hon. Gentleman some clarity on this point. The proposal is that the remaining two new advocates-general should become part of the normal rotation process for the nomination of advocates-general among those member states that are not entitled to a permanent advocate-general of their own. In other words, it is all of the soon-to-be 28 member states of the EU minus the biggest six countries, once these new measures are in place. We would expect, if the current arrangements for rotation continue, the two new advocates-general in 2015 to come from the Czech Republic and from Denmark.
Keith Vaz
I thank the Minister for that clarification and look forward to ensuring that that expectation is met.
My final point relates to the speed of the Court. The hon. Member for North East Somerset wants the Court to slow down, because he believes that speeding it up will result in greater integration. I am in favour of speeding it up, which is why I support the proposal for move advocates-general, not to ensure that we have a federalist Europe, which I oppose, but to ensure that the decisions they have to take are dealt with in a timely fashion. The delay is inexcusable. It should be considered very carefully. I am disappointed that the Minister could not assure the House that, as a result of the decision to appoint three additional advocates-general, the Court’s decisions would be speeded up, because of course he has no evidence to suggest that appointing another three will make the decisions come through any quicker—they will take their time to do what they have to do. I would like to see decisions made much more quickly in a whole host of areas, and primarily in one area that I believe is very important. If decisions have to be made as part of the legal process, they should be made as quickly as possible, because that benefits all parties.
I will end where I began by agreeing with the hon. Member for North East Somerset: it is so important that we discuss these issues on the Floor of the House. The Government should never take it for granted that, because there are so few Members present and because Opposition Front Benchers agree with them on an issue, they will never be challenged on one of these motions. There should always be an expectation that Parliament will decide to do something different, which at least we have the chance to do. I warmly welcome that.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), as indeed it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg)—two of the most eloquent Members in this place. I agree almost entirely with everything the right hon. Member for Leicester East said, and I disagree to the same extent with everything the hon. Member for North East Somerset said. In my view he says the wrong thing, but he says it very well.
I agree with the hon. Member for North East Somerset on one point, however: he is quite right to emphasise the importance of the fact that the debate is taking place at all, which is a realisation of the intentions we had when we passed the European Union Act 2011. Whatever differences might have emerged since between the two coalition parties over our attitude to European scrutiny, take-note debates and debates on approvals of Government actions in relation to Europe, such as this one, are important procedures that we agreed in the 2011 Act. It set out the terms and conditions under which referendums would be held and under which votes of this Parliament would have an impact on European decision making, which is an entirely good thing.
We have occasionally complained about the lack of thoroughness of European scrutiny in this place—for example, over the recent review of the EU arms embargo and its timeliness—but on this occasion I think that the belt-and-braces approach is working rather well. The fact that there is a rather thin turnout suggests that we might even be overdoing the level of scrutiny on this occasion. We do not seem to have a very high turnout, even on the ultramontane Conservative Benches.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I think that my hon. Friend would be more charitable to the Conservative Benches if he knew that there was the alternative attraction of a meeting with the Prime Minister and Mr Lynton Crosby.
Martin Horwood
They are obviously discussing Australian affairs, rather than European ones, but I am sure they are having a productive time.
It seems to me that Conservative Members, having argued so strongly for such an inordinate amount of parliamentary time to be devoted to Europe, should turn up and exercise their right to pass comment.
A strong European Court of Justice has to be a good thing for the UK. It is the ultimate court in which matters of EU law are determined within the European Union. That is a good thing for Britain because it ensures not only, on occasion, that we are compliant with EU law but, most importantly, that all the other 27 member states are too. As the Minister rightly pointed out, that frequently benefits British companies. Given the value of our relationship with Europe, it is crucial that the single market operates properly and is seen to be properly enforceable. If we argue for weakening that process, we are not only arguing for Britain to have a greater say over our interpretation of European law but for the French to have a greater say over its interpretation in France and for the Germans to have a greater say in Germany, and so on. Ultimately, the system becomes unworkable and unfair.
The hon. Member for North East Somerset was wrong to object to a smooth-running and efficient Court almost on principle, as I understood his remarks. It is wrong to use a court of justice as a negotiating tool and a lever for a political agenda. This is about the fair application of European law to British businesses and to the institutions of the European Union. In that respect, he should strongly support this, because the European Court of Justice has the right to tell EU institutions that they have overstepped the mark and exceeded their powers.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I apologise for not making myself clear. The reason I do not want it to be efficient is that I do not believe it is just.
Martin Horwood
We have sent some of our best quality advocates and lawyers to take part in the European Court of Justice, and other states have done likewise. It is rather insulting to the advocates-general and, indeed, judges who are in place to say to that it is not capable of passing a just judgment.
I am very pleased that the position of the British Government is that the additional cost of the extra advocates-general should be met from within the existing Court budget. I gather that that will be an additional €4 million or so, of which Britain’s share is probably €500,000, or some £400,000, a year. I would entirely support any measures that we can take to impose further austerity on these judges. That would be a useful thing to consider if they really are getting free cars. There is a need for the European Union collectively to realise that European finances are in a parlous state. That applies as much to the EU level of government as it does to the British level or to local or regional governments. In a time of austerity, it is absolutely right to look at the costs involved in such positions. It is a good discipline for us to be saying that the additional three advocates-general should be paid for from within the existing European Court budget.
That money could be well spent on behalf of British businesses, because the benefits of a freely and efficiently operating single market could be enormously greater. After all, we have £300 billion-worth of trade with other members of the European Union, we get £365 billion a year in foreign direct investment from other member states, some 3.5 million jobs are associated with trade with the EU, and some 200,000 British businesses trade with other member states. The single market is enormously important for jobs. We need it to operate fairly and efficiently in order to benefit British jobs, and that means that the European Court of Justice must operate smoothly and efficiently. That justifies the appointment of additional advocates-general to try to clear the enormous backlog of cases that now exists. I care very much about jobs in Cheltenham, and Liberal Democrats care about British jobs, so on this occasion we are four-square behind the Government in supporting the expansion of the European Court to allow for the extra advocates-general.
Mr Lidington
I am grateful to all right hon. and hon. Members who have taken part in the debate and shall attempt to respond briefly, with the leave of the House, to the various points and questions that have been posed.
I turn first to the characteristically eloquent speech by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). He and I have debated in the past and I am sure we will have opportunities to debate again the extent to which there should be European Union-level competence over particular areas of policy. He and I may agree on some parts of that debate, and we will certainly have different views on others. The point of principle in the context of today’s debate seems to be that if European-level rules and laws have been established and legislated for at the EU level—most obviously to govern a single market in goods and services—we need some kind of supranational EU tribunal or arbiter to decide on the interpretation of those laws and rules and to resolve any conflicting assertions as to the correct interpretation of them.
Lady Hermon
On the jurisprudence of the European Court of Justice, I am sure that it has not gone unnoticed that it always wishes to promote equality between men and women. Have the Minister and his colleagues pressed the ECJ to ensure that the new advocate-general will make the existing advocates-general representative of men and women across Europe?
Mr Lidington
The hon. Lady is right that, on jurisprudence, the Court has treated this issue as one of great importance. Of course, it is for individual member states to nominate men or women to serve as advocates-general, and it will then be for the article 255 panel to consider whether those nominees meet the strict criteria and standard required under the treaties. I would hope that there is fair representation. It is important that the ablest men and women are willing to be considered as potential candidates.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the Minister for taking a second intervention. I hope that, aided and abetted by his lovely team, he will now be able to throw some light on the current composition of the Court’s advocates-general.
Mr Lidington
I will write to the hon. Lady with that information, but I can tell her now that, as I am sure she already knows, the United Kingdom’s advocate-general is indeed a woman who, whether one agrees or disagrees with her particular opinions, is an extremely able lawyer who contributes a great deal to the work of the Court.
My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset argued that the Government should carry out a cost-benefit analysis of the Court’s impact on the United Kingdom. The Government, as the House will know, have launched a review of the current balance of competences between the United Kingdom and the European Union. The 32 calls for evidence and reports on different aspects of policy will give ample opportunity to businesses and others to argue where ECJ decisions have been of benefit to this country and where they have been harmful. Without revealing too much, I can tell the House that the forthcoming report on taxation policy—it is as yet unpublished—will make specific reference to leading cases in the European courts and how they have had an impact on the United Kingdom.
My hon. Friend also said that he wished that the Government had demonstrated a willingness to exercise a veto over the measure for the appointment of three new advocates-general. I say to him that a veto should not be brandished if we think that the measure concerned will be to our overall advantage. I also say to him that the Prime Minister has shown that he is willing to exercise a veto and to block measures that he believes would harm the interests of this country. We must use our negotiating capital skilfully and be prepared to be cussed and awkward if necessary about the things that really matter to the interests of the British people. The Government have been right to play hardball on issues such as the multi-annual financial framework and the long overdue reform of the common fisheries policy, and in our refusal last year to accept the proposal to set up an operational headquarters for the EU’s common security and defence policy.
I was asked a number of questions by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds), my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and others about Court reform and how we were seeking to promote greater efficiency, and about financing. I will deal with those two central questions before concluding my remarks.
On Court reform, a key point to emphasise is that the treaties give the Court of Justice the prime role in initiating proposals for its reform. Under article 281 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, changes to the Court’s statute can be proposed by the Court on its own initiative after consulting the Commission or by the Commission after consultation with the Court. The Court can propose amendments to its rules of procedure, but they need the approval of the Council. There is a Council lock on proposals, but the proposals must in the main come forward from the Court. The House will readily understand why the treaties were written in a way that protects the Court to some extent from political pressures. Within that context, we have been consistent in urging the Court to take seriously its duty to look hard at the possibility of internal administrative and procedural reform, as well as looking for other ways to enhance its efficiency and deal more promptly with the growing backlog of cases.
The reforms that have been agreed over the past two years, with the support of the United Kingdom, have included establishing the new office of the vice-president of the European Court of Justice and General Court. The quorum in the Grand Chamber has been changed to allow greater flexibility. We have seen the abolition of the requirement for a report for hearing and for the reading of that report. That has saved a lot of time when one adds up the savings accumulated over a large number of cases. We have seen the agreement to create a pool of temporary judges for the civil service tribunal. We have also seen changes to the ECJ’s rules of procedure to provide greater efficiency.
Other ideas are still being discussed. One to which the UK Government are quite sympathetic is the creation of specialist chambers within the Court. However, that is for the Court to propose if it is persuaded that it is the right course on which to embark. As the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) and other Members will know, the House of Lords Sub-Committee that is considering these matters has produced detailed reports on Court reform and efficiency.
Finally, let me turn to finance. The UK is one of a group of like-minded, budget-disciplined member states that work together routinely to push down the EU’s annual budget costs. The group includes Denmark, Finland, Sweden, the Netherlands, France, Germany and Austria as well as us, and we have no reason to believe it will be less focused on budget discipline this year. It is fair to say to the House that the €4 million needed for the advocates-general cannot be negotiated in isolation and would be one part of an annual budget negotiation of roughly €130 billion in total. The bill for the advocates-general and their staff would be less than one 100th of a percentage of the EU’s total annual budget for 2013.
To respond to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East, I say that the Court can request funds, but funding is for co-decision by the Council and the European Parliament. If we look at what has been happening in the EU’s annual budget for 2013, we see that the Court requested an increase to its budget of 8.4%—€29.2 million—which in percentage terms was the biggest requested increase for any EU institution that year. In practice, the UK and its allies worked together to reduce that increase to just 1.9% in 2013—slightly below the level of inflation. There is no reason to believe that the same could not be achieved on budget neutrality for the advocates-general, particularly given the underspend in the Court’s budget in each of the past three years.
Clearly this matter is one component of a much bigger negotiation, and the Court’s total budget forms just one part of the overall annual EU budget. There is, however, no doubt about the Government’s determination to ensure that those small additional costs are met from within the Court’s existing budget, and in particular its publicly known underspending. We will continue to work assiduously for the best possible efficiency and the greatest possible value for money, not just in the affairs of the European Courts but in every institution of the European Union.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 7013/13, the draft Council Decision increasing the number of Advocates-General of the Court of Justice of the European Union and, in accordance with Section 10 of the European Union Act 2011, approves Her Majesty’s Government’s intention to support the adoption of that draft Council Decision.
Business without Debate
Budock Hospital Site
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
Although this is not the sort of thing one must declare, I declare an interest as I am proud to be a former pupil of Falmouth school. It must be the only school in the country to have a former hospital in the centre of its campus. Budock hospital was for people with psychiatric care needs or significant learning difficulties. The top half of the former hospital site houses the buildings, and the lower slopes—known locally as Trelawney’s field—were originally jointly managed by the school with NHS social services and a farm project for young people with learning difficulties. I have fond memories of volunteering for that project as a sixth-form student.
The current head teacher has been in place for 12 years or more. Throughout that time, Cornwall council has had various conversations with the NHS to try to secure the lower part of the site for educational purposes, facilitating access to the playing fields on the far side of the hospital. The hospital was demolished, and the whole site was reclaimed and fenced off by the NHS in 2008. The school has had an overgrown and derelict site at its centre for five years, which presents significant safeguarding concerns for the school.
The NHS had several schemes to relocate health services to the site, but they have never materialised. The schools, local sports groups and the wider community in the town have no access to floodlit all-weather sports facilities—groups must travel to Penryn, Truro and Redruth to access such facilities when there are available slots.
On 8 February 2012, the head teacher wrote to NHS Cornwall to register an interest in purchasing the hospital site if and when it goes on the market. At a subsequent meeting, a Mr Wakeham said he would take the school’s interest to the NHS board. Despite follow-up calls, no decision was made.
In April 2012, the school appointed a land agent to negotiate with the NHS on its behalf to try to secure the purchase of the site. The agent had numerous discussions with the NHS, but no resolution was secured. In May 2013, after several letters from me, the school managed to meet representatives of the newly formed NHS Property Services company and its agents, BNP Paribas, Origin 3 planning consultants and Cyril Sweett quantity surveyors. It was made clear at the meeting that the NHS and its agents felt bound by Government requirements to secure the highest price for the site on the open market without consideration of community benefit. We know that that contravenes the Government’s policy and guidelines. The school presented the proposed plans for development and the local planning officers explained the local planning framework progress and emerging needs for the town. Those points seemed to be of little interest to the agents, who reinforced the fact that their clients were interested only in securing the best price for the land.
On 24 May, BNP Paribas released the site to the market with “residential potential”. That would make Falmouth school probably the only school in the country with a housing estate right in the middle of its campus. The council, as landowners, has advised that the local planning framework has earmarked the site for educational purposes. The school is prepared to pay educational land value for the site.
Falmouth school’s current site is fragmented. The aim is to consolidate it and make significant improvements to benefit the whole community. One satellite field of the school at Union corner is inaccessible for curriculum use owing to its location across a busy main road into the town. The school is proposing to sell that field to raise the funds to buy the hospital site and install a full-size, 3G all-weather pitch for school and wider community use. The two sites—Union corner and Budock hospital—are similar sizes.
The architect confirms that approximately 90 to 100 houses—a mixture of terraced, semi-detached and detached, and the appropriate number of affordable housing—could be built on the Union corner site. Approximate valuations from the council suggest that the school’s estimate of £2 million as a receipt for the site is realistic.
The local planning framework proposes approximately 3,200 new homes in the immediate area of Falmouth and the school, and there will be a need for a further 400 secondary school places in the medium term. Consolidation of the site and improved sports facilities represents best value for the taxpayer, because it will allow the existing school to meet the needs of more students —there are currently just over 1,000 on the roll. If the project does not go ahead, the school will not be able to grow, and the council could be forced into a building a new school, or parents and council might have to pay for transport to schools some distance from Falmouth.
There is also the implication of the essential road junction improvement at Union corner, which needs this land. The infrastructure is essential for delivering wider growth for the town. The road scheme has secured essential and substantial part-funding towards its delivery. The road will become the main artery, making access to the school’s satellite field even more difficult. The scheme submitted to the Department for Transport totalled £2.23 million, and it has secured just under £1.6 million through pinch-point funding—we were delighted to receive that news two weeks ago. It is also included in a bid for £500,000 of round 4 of the regional growth fund. Cornwall council is currently waiting for approval, which is expected in mid-July. The remainder funds have already been allocated from the council’s local transport funds.
Cornwall council will still seek to claw back funding from future developments given their impact on this junction, but the funding will be used to deliver the wider improvements identified in the Falmouth and Penryn strategy. The published local plan document highlights the hospital site as being required for development. Cornwall council’s draft infrastructure development plan emphasised the need for the sports facility. It described it as essential as Falmouth continues to grow.
The school has consulted the Education Funding Agency regarding the sale of the Union corner site to acquire the former Budock hospital site. As the school will meet all the conditions in section 77 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998, it will achieve this consent. The council suggests that the educational value of the Budock hospital site is approximately £750,000. A full-sized, 3G all-weather pitch costs about £800,000, although there may be some unknown ground works to contend with.
The school has consulted the newly elected local Cornwall council members, and all support the project, as do the newly elected town councillor for the ward, the mayor of Falmouth and the town centre manager. A public meeting was held on 16 May 2013 and all present supported the scheme. Falmouth university supports the project. Sports groups pledging their support include: Cornwall Squash and Rackets Association, Cornwall football association, Falmouth hockey club, Falmouth Road Runners, Falmouth Town football club, Falmouth United football club, Falmouth cricket club and Falmouth rugby club—we have a thriving sporting community in Falmouth.
The school council has been consulted and the wider school population has been advised, and all are excited about the prospects. Today I received a letter from the Minister saying that the former hospital site will be taken off the market. I cannot thank the Minister enough for his intervention. The headmistress and the whole school community wanted me to pass on their thanks for his helpful intervention to help us find a resolution to this situation. I am very pleased that it has been taken off the market, so that we can have another meeting and get around the table with the NHS property company, the district valuer, the whole council and myself. This is welcome news.
I was, however, slightly concerned by something in the letter. The NHS property company is advocating the original offer from some time ago, of a land swap option to resolve the issue. This is no longer the best outcome. Let me explain why. Approximately 15 months ago, the primary care trust and the school were in talks regarding a straightforward land swap, as the size and value of the two sites were relatively similar. However, because of the changes to the planning framework, which I have already outlined, the hospital site is designated as educational, while the Union corner playing field is now clearly designated as residential. This changes the value of the two sites. As a result, the land swap would not be the best use of public money or of these two sites. I am grateful that NHS Property Services has signalled that it is prepared to get around the table—this recent change of attitude is very welcome. Although I do not think the swap is the best way forward, I am sure that, with the Minister’s support, we can find a sensible solution that works for the NHS—hard-pressed as it is and in need of every penny to invest in front-line services, as we all appreciate—for Falmouth school, for Cornwall council and for the wider community.
In conclusion, this is an immensely important scheme for Falmouth. It will be an Olympic legacy in terms of improved sports facilities for the whole community. It will put the school on a secure footing for generations to come and contribute to the economic redevelopment of this part of Falmouth, bringing much-needed affordable homes and supporting exciting new and growing companies in the area. Having received the Minister’s support in his letter today, I now seek an assurance that the land swap will not be the only option. If following the meeting on 21 June with all the parties concerned, which I am chairing, we can make a sensible case for giving significant funds to the NHS while enabling us to realise this important project, we will be very content indeed.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) on securing this debate and on her ongoing tremendous advocacy on behalf of her constituents. She talked eloquently of her own knowledge of the school—“care farm” is the expression I would use in my constituency—and the relationship between the school and the old hospital. She highlighted the importance when looking for value in NHS land of doing as much as possible to maximise the land receipt and put that money back into the NHS, but of course NHS land is community land, and it is important that, wherever possible, we work with surrounding communities to support them in local activities that benefit the population.
My hon. Friend also outlined eloquently the challenges faced by more rural parts of the country, and Cornwall in particular. We know that community resources and facilities are much scarcer in rural areas, as she highlighted in her speech. When we look at the affordability of local homes and the provision of community facilities, rurality is an important consideration and one that we always bear in mind in the NHS.
I appreciate my hon. Friend’s interest in the Budock hospital site and support her concern that best use be made of public sector land not only in releasing its monetary value, but regarding the availability of affordable homes for local people to live in. I understand that NHS Property Services has intervened to begin the process of facilitating a mutually beneficial resolution of the issues previously hindering the sale of this land to the local school. Those issues predate the transfer of ownership to NHS Property Services, and were between the former Cornwall and Isles of Scilly primary care trust and Falmouth school. Thanks to swift action since NHS Property Services took over control of the NHS estate, the issues are well on their way to being unlocked. NHS Property Services inherited a portfolio of 4,000 other properties from 161 disparate previous NHS organisations on 1 April, and a win-win resolution is now in sight.
I am sure we will have other debates on similar matters, so it is worth outlining to the House the role of NHS Property Services and some early successes that have occurred. On 1 April, NHS Property Services inherited about 4,000 NHS assets, including health centres, office accommodation, care homes and hospital buildings. It houses about 12,000 tenants and is valued at more than £3 billion. It also inherited more than 3,000 members of staff from former PCTs and strategic health authorities throughout England. This brand new organisation is already doing tremendous work in the face of this huge challenge to create efficient, fit-for-purpose facilities and services for the benefit of patients and the public. All too often in the past, there was an unacceptable variability in estates management—not just in this case, but throughout the NHS—by PCTs and SHAs. The advantage of having estate management under one central roof has already paid dividends throughout the NHS. The creation of NHS Property Services has generated an opportunity to explore options to bring together a fragmented system—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. May I just gently remind the Minister that this is a very tight debate? We are talking about one site; we should be dealing with Falmouth and nowhere else. There may be a good story to tell but we can save that for another day.
Dr Poulter
Indeed. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for bringing me back to the task in hand. There are many good stories to tell from other constituencies but you are quite right; we should focus on how successes in Ludlow and South Suffolk can be translated into success at the Budock hospital site.
The focus of NHS Property Services is about resolving some local planning concerns where PCTs have had difficulties in the past, which is what we are going to concentrate on. I understand that Falmouth school’s plans to purchase the Budock site pre-date the transfer of land to NHS Property Services on 1 April 2013. The school and the former Cornwall and Isles of Scilly primary care trust had previously agreed to enter into a land swap to release the school’s playing fields—which were difficult to access—for the hospital site. The NHS was then to dispose of the playing fields for housing land.
I understand that differences in the size and estimated value of the sites, and planning permission issues, had prevented both parties from reaching agreement to progress this proposal, which commenced some time ago in 2011.
The Government’s priority for easing the shortage of land for housing development is to see development take place in sustainable locations; the predominantly brownfield sites of some of the old NHS estate no longer used for clinical purposes can help bring forward land for affordable homes to be built for local families. The Budock site is brownfield land and is located in a settlement that is forecast to experience significant growth over the coming years, as my hon. Friend outlined.
The site was assessed under the Cornwall strategic housing land availability assessment and found to be suitable for approximately 100 dwellings. My hon. Friend will also be aware that Treasury guidelines on managing public money state that public sector organisations may transfer assets among themselves without placing the property on the open market, provided they do so at market prices. They also state that the organisations should work collaboratively on the transfer to agree a price, and that it is good practice to commission a single independent valuation to settle the price to be paid. My hon. Friend said that is the plan in this case.
I am pleased to report that NHS Property Services and the school have agreed that the original proposal can be revisited, with a planned joint instruction to the district valuer from both parties. NHS Property Services has agreed with Falmouth school that it will take the Budock hospital site off the market while reviewing the original land swap option. To enable both the school and NHS Property Services to deliver these proposals, support will be required from the local planning authority to ensure that a clear planning brief is available for both sites. I am sure my hon. Friend will be helpful in facilitating that accord. This will ensure that both organisations and the district valuer can understand and agree an estimated value for both sites.
This value can be demonstrated in land value and in wider community benefits such as housing, health and well-being, and education and leisure use. My hon. Friend eloquently outlined the many local sports and leisure groups that are hugely supportive of this project, and rightly so. The project will be for the sake of the local community and would be beneficial as well to the NHS through the profits from the land, which could be distributed elsewhere to support local NHS projects.
The potential outcome from this approach is a win-win situation for the local community, the school and the NHS. NHS Property Services will be able to maximise receipts from the sale of the current school playing fields for reinvestment in front-line NHS services. Falmouth school and the wider community will benefit from improved access to leisure facilities on the former hospital site, and much needed housing development in the Falmouth area will be brought one step closer. I understand that an initial report setting out the context and options for the proposed transaction can be delivered within six weeks. That will require the co-operation of the school, NHS Property Services and, importantly, the local planning authority. The report should set out a programme to include a target of three to six months for initial agreement, in the form of a contract to be reached for the transaction. This could take a number of forms, subject to the advice that both parties receive from the district valuer—contract for sale and option agreement.
This evening my hon. Friend has eloquently outlined the case for why the project should go ahead. I will of course be monitoring progress on the ground. The door is always open for her to come and see me if there are further problems or concerns. I am sure that her tremendous advocacy on behalf of her constituents will continue to unlock the potential of these proposals and make them a reality.
Question put and agreed to.
Petition
Mobility access to Goring and Streatley Station
Westminster Hall
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
First World War Commemoration
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Keith Simpson (Broadland) (Con)
It is a great pleasure, Mrs Riordan, to serve under your chairmanship. We are witnessing today a strange reversal of life, in that I am doing a presentation to the Minister, whom I taught some 20 years ago when he was an officer cadet. It will be interesting to see whether he is as critical of me as I perhaps was of him.
May I begin by declaring three interests—not pecuniary ones—that I have in relation to the subject? The first is that for many years I taught military history at the military academy of Sandhurst and at the staff college, and I wrote or edited several books to do with the British Army and the first world war. Secondly, I am one of two parliamentary commissioners representing the House of Commons on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. Thirdly, I am a member of the Prime Minister’s advisory board on commemorating the first world war.
We cannot get away from the fact that the first world war is a controversial subject. It was controversial at the time. When the Liberal Government decided to declare war on Germany, following the German invasion of Belgium, several Liberal Ministers resigned from the Cabinet. During the war, there were the conscientious objectors, and those, such as Lord Lansdowne, who wanted at different times to reach a peace settlement.
The subject has also been controversial since then. Many veterans felt that they were betrayed. In the 1960s, during the anniversary of the first world war, an enormous debate went on. Films and programmes such as “Oh! What A Lovely War” and “Blackadder Goes Forth” probably have a bigger impact on public perceptions of Britain and the first world war than all the memoirs and history books, and we can see that today.
The Government are in a difficult position, trying to organise a commemoration that reflects the general feeling of the British public, which is that this is something to commemorate in a positive way. It is about not only remembrance and reconciliation but pride. However, looking in the newspapers, I can see that my old friend Max Hastings has written a story asking whether the Government are sucking up to the Germans—“Don’t mention the war!” That is not true.
I happen to be in the historical camp that believes that Britain was right to go to war in 1914, by the end of which we had beaten imperial Germany. Many Germans of the current generation and German historians agree with that. Equally, a whole group of artists and others, including one Labour MP, wrote to The Guardian expressing an opposite view. They believe that this is all about the worst kind of patriotic interpretation of the first world war. We have two different opinions. It is not up to the Government to lay down the law on this, but we will have a discussion over the next five years, and perhaps the younger generation will engage in it.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there were two main consequences of the first world war? One was that 16 million were dead and the second was the second world war.
Mr Simpson
With the greatest of respect to the hon. Gentleman, I am not here to debate that. It may well be that at some later date we will have a full-scale debate about commemorating the first world war, either through the Backbench Business Committee or in Government time. I am merely giving two interpretations, and I happen to believe that one of them is correct.
My purpose in introducing this short debate today is to reflect the fact that there has been considerable interest in both Houses in the commemoration. Two of my hon. Friends, here today, have already secured short debates on the subject. On 6 March, my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) introduced a debate entitled, “Youth participation: first world war commemorations”, and, on 13 March, my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) introduced a debate on the first world war centenary. Folkestone will be one of the commemorative points next August; it was from Folkestone that many tens of thousands of soldiers went by cross-channel steamer to Belgium and France. There have been oral questions and debates in the House of Lords as well.
The Government have outlined a six-year programme of events around the themes of remembrance, youth and education. I do not intend to go into any details, as many colleagues here will be aware of it. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission and the Imperial War museum are central to the commemoration, but I also want to flag up the role of the National Archives, which have hundreds of thousands—if not millions—of documents and photographs relating to the first world war, specifically to the war service of men and women, and a lot of other things such as operational diaries. People now can get easy access to such information.
The importance of the commemoration is not just the fact that the Government are going to set an overview, but that it will be bottom up. It is the work done already over many decades by individuals and local communities who wish to look at the people behind the names, particularly on things such as war memorials. We have a wide range of interest groups such as the Western Front Association and the War Memorials Trust, which have already done very good work—hon. Members will know that from their constituencies.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
I apologise for having missed the first sentence or two of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks; I was attending a Delegated Legislation Committee. I am a trustee of the War Memorials Trust and I am pleased to hear him mention its work. In particular, we have the project In Memoriam to ensure that our war memorials are safe and an education programme to ensure that the younger generation understand the matter. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman wants to comment on how important the younger generation is in all this.
Mr Simpson
The trust does some very good work indeed, and I will come back to it in a minute.
We must take a sensitive and sophisticated approach to the issue. This is about not just the United Kingdom Government and Parliament here, but the devolved Parliament in Scotland, the devolved Assembly in Wales and the devolved Parliament in Northern Ireland.
We also have to take into account the Commonwealth, remembering that in 1914 the British Government declared war on behalf of the empire, and that the participation of the empire is also a sensitive subject. Some 1.6 million men from the Indian sub-continent served in the Indian army—mainly in the middle east, but also in Belgium and France—and tens of thousands of them were killed and injured. The successor states, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, have ambivalent views about how to commemorate the first world war, not least because many of the soldiers returned to the Indian sub-continent and joined groups that wished to see the end of the Raj.
Finally, there is the international element, which I have briefly touched on. What the Government must do, and I am sure the Minister will comment on this, is integrate what we are doing with what our allies—the French, the Germans, the Turks, the Russians and many other countries—are doing.
It is important to recognise that the commemoration develops over six years and that we need to maintain the momentum. Although the Government have laid down a number of points that we are going to commemorate, such as the death of Nurse Edith Cavell, who was from Norfolk where I was born and live, they also have to consider the legacy. In other words, how do we want this commemoration to be remembered, particularly putting the emphasis on young people? I suggest that we look at things such as education and the strengthening of communities.
For me, the purpose of this short debate is to consider what role Parliament will play in this commemoration and to encourage my fellow parliamentarians to participate in events and advise local communities about them. I fully recognise that many colleagues are already doing that.
I suggest that the parliamentary element should have two themes. The first is to look at the political and constitutional role that Parliament played during the war—in particular, the aspects that resonate today. After all, in 1914 the Liberal Government did not seek Parliament’s permission and have a vote on the declaration of war, which many colleagues will see as having a resonance now. There is the whole business of the key debates that took place here in Parliament. There is also the formation of the two coalitions: the coalition of May 1915, of the Liberals and the Conservatives; and then the Lloyd George coalition of December 1916, which had the Libs under Lloyd George and the Conservatives, with some Labour support.
In addition, there are the elements of legislation that were crucial at the time and that still have a resonance today. The licensing laws that we live with today were brought in at the beginning of the first world war to encourage munitions workers not to get tired and emotional and cut production. The Defence of the Realm Acts brought in massive constraints on civil liberties; the Military Service Acts—in other words, conscription—broke the back of the old Liberal party; and finally the Representation of the People Act 1918 saw for the first time the majority of women, although not all of them, getting the vote.
How does Parliament achieve this commemoration? I suspect that there will be exhibitions, and there will be online information. It is possible that the Speakers of both the Commons and the Lords will arrange a series of lectures and talks. I suggest another idea, which some of my colleagues might think is a little too modern, even for me; it shows that I have a feminine side, of which the loss of my moustache is a further example. The idea is that we could recreate some of the debates I have referred to through the Youth Parliament. Let the Youth Parliament debate the issues that divided the country during the first world war.
It is also conceivable that Parliament could publish a book that would relate to the second element of Parliament and the first world war: the experiences, service and personal losses of Members of both Houses of Parliament—both MPs and peers—and of their staff. I would like to think that we could bring that idea up to date by asking Members of both Houses and their staff to provide information about what happened to their direct ancestors and their families.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire, my hon. Friend, has already started the process in the other House; some Members may have seen a piece that he wrote in The House magazine about four months ago. He discovered some fascinating information about the current generation of peers and peeresses. There are not only direct descendants of Asquith, Haig and Lord Grenfell; there is also the fact, of course, that the House of Lords represents immigrants.
For example, Baroness Henig’s grandfather fought at the battle of Tannenberg on the German side; Lord Dubs’s father was in the Austrian army; and Lord Tugendhat’s father was an Austrian officer on the Italian front. Several members of the Asian community had grandfathers who served in the Indian army during the first world war.
There were also people who never served in the armed forces, and we want to bear that in mind; it is not only the military side that matters. There were the women who were nurses. Lord Prescott said that both his grandfathers continued as miners during the war; effectively, they were in a reserve occupation. There is a lot of interesting work that can be done in that area.
Let us not forget the staff. Work has already been done by the archivists and those on the educational side of Parliament. As an example, I give two small pieces of information. First, it will not surprise Members to know that the majority of Badge Messengers in 1914 were ex-military. The majority of them were either recalled to the colours or—if they were elderly gentlemen—nevertheless went back into uniform to train people. Secondly, they were replaced as messengers in the House of Commons by girl guides. That would have been quite a remarkable change for the 1914 generation.
We should not forget the staff. One member of staff who volunteered was Frederick Silva. He was a waiter in the House of Commons in the refreshment department. He was in the 2nd Battalion, the Rifle Brigade, and was killed in action on 30 September 1917, probably during the third Ypres battle.
Finally, we perhaps want to consider what the impact of the first world war was on the generation in the inter-war and post-war periods; that possibly links in with the intervention made earlier by the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn). Ramsay MacDonald was vilified because he had not fought during the first world war, but the war experience of Attlee and Macmillan was deep in their souls and resonated in their attitudes to so many things, including social reform and rearmament.
My second theme for this debate, which I will touch on briefly, is to encourage parliamentarians to participate in commemorative events and advise their local communities about them. Many colleagues are already doing that. The Heritage Lottery Fund recently announced that £6 million of funding will be spread over six years, which can be allocated to people who bid either as individuals or as local communities for projects related to heritage. I know that these ideas have been taken up by many parliamentarians. If people visit a few of our colleagues’ websites, they will see that they have flagged that money up.
What more can be done? Colleagues can take an active part in events and consider the specific experience of their own constituency, whether it is in a town, a city or a county. I will briefly give the example not so much of my own constituency of Broadland as of the work that is already being done throughout Norfolk. I have tried to put questions not only to local historians but to the Eastern Daily Press, which is taking a great interest and which I think will participate fully in events. I suggest that Members could relate those questions to any city, county or constituency.
My first question was, “What was Norfolk like in 1914?” It is a very good question for children to ask. Let us cut away all the myths of a golden summer and everything else—what was it like? What were the attitudes, as far as we can tell, of people at that time? We must remember that we are dealing with the first generation of really literate people.
Secondly, what was the impact of men volunteering or being conscripted to the armed forces? There were massive variations. We think of the Kitchener volunteers, but they did not all rush away at first; in Norfolk, they did not go until September or October 1914. Outside the cities, volunteers or conscripts were mainly rural workers and they literally had to get the harvest in. We forget the conscripts. The majority of people serving in the British armed forces by 1918—when we “won” the war—were, in fact, conscripts.
We know that a lot of emphasis will be put on the military experience of soldiers, including their experience of battle and of becoming casualties. However, Members also need to think of the expanding military presence in their locality during world war one; there were training camps and physical defences of one kind or another. We must also consider the experience of women and children, including their loss of a father or a husband—literally, for up to four years, and perhaps permanently. Alternatively, many soldiers returned from the war limbless or suffering from post-traumatic stress, as we would call it now.
We must also consider the impact of refugees and prisoners of war. Norfolk had tens of thousands of Belgian refugees. Also, a lot of German PoWs were working on the land, which is something we always associate with the second world war. There is also the role played by industry and farming. Tens of thousands of women volunteered for work in war industries and on the land. The Women’s Land Army does not date from the second world war—that was when my mother had experience of it—but from the first world war. There was social change, with tens of thousands of young men being billeted in a local area—crime and sex.
There was also politics under the coalition Government. What did it mean in a Member’s locality? How did a Member’s predecessors—if they can be traced—respond to the war, whether they were a Conservative, Labour, Liberal or coalition Liberal? There is also the role of conscientious objectors to consider. Were they badly treated? Were they reflective of their society? The impact of rationing on people must also be considered. Once again, we think of rationing as happening in the second world war.
We must consider hospitals and auxiliary convalescent homes. There was no national health service; there was a limited number of hospitals. In Norfolk, more than 60 schools, private houses and village halls were turned into hospitals, with only local women, who had virtually no experience of nursing, taking things on. That is one of the unsung elements of the first world war that we should commemorate.
Those of us on the east coast suffered the experience of both naval bombardments and air raids. The German navy bombarded ports, such as Great Yarmouth, and a number of towns in Norfolk had air raids. Again, we assume that that happened in the second world war.
The Government have suggested that we name streets after Victoria Cross heroes. It is possible that Harry Daniels, of the Rifle Brigade, a company sergeant-major during the war, who was born in Norfolk and won his VC, may be honoured eventually in his home town of Dereham. Like a lot of working class soldiers in the first world war, he came from a broken family and was a product of the workhouse. We spend a lot of time concentrating on the middle-class poets, but let us not forget the tens of thousands of working men for whom joining the Army was both a food ticket and a way out of social deprivation.
Finally, there is the Armistice and the physical remembrance of the first world war. The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) is right about looking at war memorials, particularly the people behind the names. A lot of schools are already doing this. Parliament can play an important role in terms of what it wants to remember about the first world war. Many colleagues in both Houses have already started on this work.
I should like to end with a stanza—a short poem—written by somebody who saw the worst and the best of the first world war. We always assume that Rudyard Kipling was the poet of empire. He was an incredibly popular poet at the time and still is today. We think of him glorifying the old British empire and the Raj, but we have to remember, of course, that his only son was killed in 1915 and he was overwhelmed by guilt.
Kipling encouraged his son to join up. When the boy failed because he had bad eyesight, Kipling had a quiet word to make certain that he was commissioned. He never got over that. Kipling played an important role in the remembrance of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, but he wrote a bitter stanza that has a particular resonance for all of us as politicians. Some hon. Members will know it. “A Dead Statesman”:
“I could not dig; I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?”
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
This is the first time that I have spoken under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan, and I am sure that it will be a great pleasure to do so.
It is a delight to be here and to hear the authoritative words of the hon. Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson), who secured this debate. I am slightly alarmed that he has shaved off his moustache. The feminisation of politics has given us many great benefits, but Mrs Thatcher never appointed anyone with facial hair. There is great danger if we start to shave off our facial hair: what male appendages might be under threat next?
The first world war is not an occasion to celebrate. I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for soothing out some of the jingoistic overtones in the original speech that suggested that we might celebrate the end of that war. I have a different tale to tell, but it is relevant and true, about a young man who volunteered at the age of 15. He was full of optimism and a great patriot, and went to war believing that it was going to lead to dignity, glory and honour. It did not; it led to disease, degradation, bitterness and early death at the age of 43.
That young man was a machine gunner. The belief on both sides was that machine gunners were never taken prisoner, because they were responsible for killing hundreds and possibly thousands of people. He found himself in a machine gun nest—a foxhole—gravely injured, and the others were dead. That was in April 1918, when the Germans broke through on the Messines ridge. His life was saved. He heard a German patrol coming to him and took out his rosary beads to pray, waiting for the bullet to blow out his brains. He could not get out of the hole, where he was identified as a machine gunner because the machine gun was lying across his body. However, he was not shot. The German officer, and two others, carried him across no man’s land and his life was saved. He was ever grateful to the Germans for the rest of his life.
He went there to serve the cause of his country that he loved and to kill the Hun, who were slaughtering Belgian babies. Other small nations had a different army experience at the time. He returned to civilian life and found that he was on a pension. He could not do what he called a man’s job ever again. In the mid-1930s, his pitiful pension was reduced by an ungrateful Government, who changed the reason for his pension from saying that his ill health was attributed to his war wound to saying that it was aggravated by it, although he went in as a perfectly fit 15-year-old.
The man was my father. Bitterness against war is justified in many of his generation. He was not killed by his wounds, but by his war experience. Two of the stories that he and his brothers told me about the war were that they did not have strawberry jam, but they had alcohol and cigarettes in abundance. He died of lung cancer at 43, because he was hopelessly addicted to tobacco. Others were addicted to alcohol, because of the way that alcohol was cynically used, an element that the hon. Member for Broadland did not recall.
We have to look at that war, which resulted in 16 million dead, with 900,000 British dead. Anyone who believes that is a matter for celebration is deeply wrong. The hon. Gentleman quoted Kipling, a great advocate for glory:
“I lied to please the mob.”
Others lied to please the mob. The lesson that we should take from the first world war, which led to the second world war, inevitably, because of what happened at Versailles, is, how do we understand war in our own age, these days?
There is a debate on Thursday on the Iraq war. It will be fascinating to recall the decisions made in this place in 2003, when because of the wishes of one man, we did not pull out of that war, as the Prime Minister was invited to, but went ahead on the basis of a misunderstanding, or possibly a lie. The consequence for this country was 179 dead. That is a hell of a price to pay for one man’s vanity. If we wish to commemorate the true lessons of that war, I suggest we do something that is now forbidden in this House and read out the names of the current war dead from Iraq and Afghanistan. I have done it twice and it is now forbidden. We are not allowed—it is out of order—to read the names of the war dead. We could not possibly do it for those who died in the first world war, who died in their hundreds of thousands, like cattle, but we can at least honour those who have recently died because of our decisions, taken in this House, on Iraq and Helmand, which have resulted in many other deaths.
The great lesson of the first world war was its abject futility and the way it led to unnecessary suffering and death, without solving any of the problems that existed at the time. I am grateful that there has been a change in the Government’s attitude and that they are talking about commemorating the war’s full horrors. That must be our emphasis and our message to young people. We could go back not only to Kipling, but to the other poets who said that we must not repeat
“The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.”
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Let me make two quick comments before I come to what I wanted to say. First, we all owe my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) a debt for initiating the debate. As he knows, my first grown-up job in politics was as research assistant to Maurice Macmillan, which meant I was privileged to spend quite a lot of time at Birch Grove. In my conversations with Harold Macmillan, there was absolutely no doubt that his approach, and that of other political leaders of the time, to Europe, the Common Market and European politics was in large part based on their experience of having gone through two European wars. For people such as Harold Macmillan, it was not just the fact that they had gone through two European wars, but guilt about the fact that they had actually survived—Harold Macmillan was almost the only person from his Grenadier Guards officer cadet group to survive the great war.
To pick up the point made by the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), I think we all have family stories about the great war. I had an uncle—Uncle Bob—who was gassed in the first world war and who won the military medal, but I cannot remember him ever uttering a whole sentence, because for the rest of his life he lived with the fact that he had been gassed.
The point I really want to make follows from that made by the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), and requires me to put on my hat as Second Church Estates Commissioner. As a result of the first world war, there was a need to demonstrate the huge and understandable grief over the loss of the husbands, fathers, sons, brothers and friends who made up the never-ending casualty list from the front line. There are, therefore, now roughly 36,000 memorials to the dead of the great war, reflecting that unprecedented expression of public grief. Not surprisingly, many of those memorials are in churches or within the curtilage of church buildings.
I hope two things will happen between 2014 and 2018. First, I hope every community—every parish, every town and every village—will look to refurbish or restore its war memorials. The recording of names—often simply in alphabetical order, giving no priority in death, because all are equal in death—is an important memorial, and now is the time to ensure that our war memorials are repaired and restored. Some memorials relate to streets or areas, such as those for the Hull pals and the Accrington pals. Others relate to factories, and one will also find memorials at railway stations. Charles Sargeant Jagger, the uncle of Mick Jagger, designed the great memorial in Paddington station, as well as the gunners memorial at Hyde park corner.
The other thing I hope will happen, which my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland alluded to, is that every community will have an opportunity to research the names and histories of those who died.
Meg Hillier
Another interesting issue is that a lot of names are missing, because the names were haphazardly collected. The War Memorials Trust does not necessarily fund work on this, but it depends on the circumstances; we have seen some great examples of names being added. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would be interested in work being done in education so that local children could seek out some of the names that should have been added, but which were missed off.
Sir Tony Baldry
That is a good point. One is already seeing work on that. Clive Aslet produced a very good book called “War Memorial”, which is the story of the sacrifice of one village, Lydford, from 1914 to 2003. There are 23 names on the war memorial, and he goes through the histories of all of them in the book. In the preface, he says:
“What I would really like to do for the Centenary of the First World War in 2014 is to set up a project for each village to find out about its own dead. There is so much you could do and it would be a fantastic national and local resource. This book threw up such a richness of material and it really got me up every morning because I became so utterly absorbed by the story of these people’s lives.”
In my constituency, in the village of Deddington, Michael Allbrook and Robert Forsyth have written a history of the parish at war. When war memorials were erected in the early 1920s, it was sufficient for the inscription to include simply a name and an initial, because everybody knew the person. Men of Deddington died in Belgium, Canada, England, France, Germany, Greece, India, Iraq, Israel, Italy, Malaysia, Sicily, Syria and Turkey, where their graves and official memorials can be found, but their histories are at risk of being lost. The book written by the people of Deddington is a reminder of the lives of those men and of the people they were.
The Heritage Lottery Fund is giving £1 million a year over six years until 2019 to help communities mark the centenary of the first world war. I hope people will look to the war memorials and to the names on them, as well as, in some instances, as the hon. Lady said, to those that are not on them, as a starting point for exploring the history and commemorating the lives of people from their communities who took part in the great war.
When I enlisted in the Sussex Yeomanry in 1970, it had a dinner at the Royal Pavilion in Brighton every year before Remembrance day. In 1970, there were still two tables of 1914-18 veterans. When I, as a young man, asked them what made them leave their farms in Sussex—most had never left their farms before going to war—they simply said, “We went to defend our farms.” Edward Thomas was asked why he went to war, and he picked up a sod of English earth and said, “I went to fight for this.” Every one of the people on a war memorial has a story: they were a person; they had a life. I hope that, in commemorating the first world war over the next four years, we will take the opportunity to recall and commemorate the individual lives of every one of those who fell.
Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair)
Order. At the moment, I do not intend to impose a time limit. If Members can be disciplined in their speeches, I will be able to call all those who want to speak. I will then call the Front Benchers at 10.40 am. If time starts running short, however, I will impose a time limit, with the kind permission of Mr Speaker.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to speak on this issue. I congratulate the hon. Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) on bringing it before us for consideration and on the passionate and balanced way he presented his case.
We in Northern Ireland have a close link with our serving personnel. We have a strong history of service, particularly in my constituency. In Northern Ireland, there was no need for conscription, because my forefathers and all those who joined up were volunteers. Those who served chose to do so, and they were proud to do so. We remain proud of the part they played.
Some people might question the relevance of continuing celebrations when there are no veterans of the first world war left, but we learned a great lesson from that war, and it is a lesson that we must never forget. We must ensure that we teach our children our history and instil in them an understanding of what makes them who they are and a pride that they, and we, are British.
We in Northern Ireland all intend to be involved—at least the Unionist MPs, and we will try to persuade some of the other MPs—in introducing into primary schools an educational pack, which will provide some of the facts about the first world war and try to create in children’s minds the importance of the occasion. Through that, we also hope to build upon community relations.
One of the great things that has come out through our peace process has been the recognition of service from both sides of the community, and service from the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. One thing we wish to do, and will try to do within the commemorations, is to have a twinning type of arrangement between communities in Northern Ireland and communities in the Republic of Ireland. Importantly, that will also build relations.
I want quickly to mention the Bowtown community group association in my constituency, which, alongside other groups in the area, has been actively involved in promoting the importance of the first world war. There are things that we can do as MPs—as elected representatives—with schools and communities, north and south together in the island of Ireland. That is something we will try to build on.
When I think of the first world war, my thoughts automatically turn to the Somme, and in my constituency office opposite our flag is a beautiful framed picture of the Somme, which I think we are proud to see every day. As mayor of Ards borough in a previous life—21 years ago—I had occasion to go to the Somme and visit the battlefields, and I highly commend such a visit because it gives a real flavour of what happened in the first world war and the sacrifice that there was. Many of the gravestones there were of people who were 16. Many of the Ulstermen who joined told lies about their age, saying that they were 18 or 19 when they were 15 or 16—some were even 14. Perhaps there was not as tight a control as there should have been on birth certificates at the time. Those people also sacrificed themselves, and we should always be mindful of that.
We are perhaps proudest of our fight at the Somme, during which the bravery and courage of the Ulstermen has become the stuff of legends. Of nine Victoria Crosses given to British forces in that battle, four were awarded to the 36th Ulster Division. Captain Wilfred Spender of the division’s HQ staff after the battle of the Somme was quoted in the press as saying:
“I am not an Ulsterman but yesterday, the 1st. July, as I followed their amazing attack, I felt that I would rather be an Ulsterman than anything else in the world”.
The final sentences of Captain Wilfred Spender’s account furthered his viewpoint, one that was politically correct at that time for Unionists:
“The Ulster Division has lost more than half the men who attacked and, in doing so, has sacrificed itself for the Empire which has treated them none too well. The much derided Ulster Volunteer Force has won a name which equals any in history. Their devotion, which no doubt has helped the advance elsewhere, deserved the gratitude of the British Empire. It is due to the memory of these brave fellows that their beloved Province shall be fairly treated.”
Those who gave their lives on 1 July at the Somme were volunteers on behalf of the empire, and that is something we must commemorate.
Just on the edge of my constituency we have the Somme centre, which was built specifically to recall the sacrifices of the first world war and to commemorate the fact that—the Minister will be aware of this—the people from the 36th Ulster Division trained within a mile of the centre before they went to the Somme. The Thiepval tower is important, and the Somme centre plays an important role for us. It re-creates the trenches and has many historical artefacts. People can today live the sound, the noise, the horror, the courage and the sacrifice that took place, through what they have at the centre. I believe that it commemorates those things in a great way.
That service to crown and country strongly lives on, and that is the point on which I want to end. Today, 100 years on, the sacrifice of the first world war is still important, for us as parliamentarians and for our soldiers who are out in the field. Every one of us knows soldiers who have given their lives. In my constituency, I am always minded of Channing Day, who died in Afghanistan last year. Badges were sold in her name for Combat Stress—they sold out very quickly, and the next batch is now on sale.
We take pride in doing the right thing, and the right thing is to remember and honour those who fought in the war. The young men who had no idea what they were marching into, the young women who picked up the slack at home and worked the fields and factories, the families who mourned and the new Great Britain that arose after the war, are all reasons to commemorate the first world war in a right and proper way.
As we now look to a century since the war began, it is the right time to ensure that we commemorate in such a fashion that honours our fallen and inspires our children to realise how hard won the fight for freedom truly was. We can never afford to be complacent. I wholeheartedly believe that parliamentarians and Parliament as a whole should be taking the lead in the commemorations. We have a lot to do over the next few years, and we look forward to the process.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I will try to be brief. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) on his wide-ranging, informative and certainly thought-provoking contribution. I was attracted to participating in the debate because it refers specifically to how Parliament commemorates world war one.
When I sit in the main Commons Chamber, I always listen with razor-like attention to my colleagues’ eloquent and devastating rhetoric and argument. Rarely does my attention wander, but if my eyes occasionally stray upwards—I hope they do not do so often—they spot the crests that surround the Chamber. I wonder how often we notice that they are there, and how often we think about what they represent, or, more importantly, about the stories of the people that lie behind them. When I am rushing to a Committee meeting or a dining room and I scurry through the Lower Waiting Hall, I do not tend to stop by the book of remembrance, which is often concealed by a policeman. Therein alone is treasure trove of stories. How often, as I dash off to Millbank through Members’ Entrance, do my eyes look up to the war memorial there, and the names on it?
As Members of the House, it is vital that part of our commemoration is of Members themselves and, indeed, of staff, who lost their lives. What links this debate with the Minister’s previous focus is last year’s Olympics. I recall some excellent exhibitions in the House on the connection between the House and the Olympics, on great Olympians who were also Members of the House. A book was even published, which detailed their lives and their contributions. I sincerely hope that Parliament comes up with something similar, to allow us an insight into the lives of Members and staff who lost their lives. My hon. Friend the Member for Broadland gave the example of the waiter in the restaurant.
My second observation draws partly on what the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) said about the legacy of world war one. It is all too easy to think that the legacy issue ended in 1939, but I argue that every time we stand up and discuss Syria in the House we are doing so as a consequence of the 1916 Sykes-Picot agreement, which demarcated the middle east and created an explosive cocktail that rumbles on to this day. I believe that the legacy is in the here and now, and I suspect that it has affected many of the great decisions that have been made in this Parliament down the years, including on pioneering social legislation, and the attitudes towards appeasement and what occurred in the lead-up to world war two.
Possibly the most important thing we can do in Parliament to commemorate world war one is not just to base the contributions we stand up to make in the Chamber on the here and now, on what we have read in today’s or yesterday’s newspapers—the fish and chip wrappers of tomorrow; we should also be open to the long perspectives, and at each moment of our lives be open to thinking about what brought us here and the wider issues we are debating. If we do that, our contributions might be more meaningful than they all too often are and my attention might not stray to the many crests that surround the Chamber and could instead be focused more intently on what other Members are saying.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
It is great to follow my colleague and friend from Lancashire, my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard).
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) on introducing the debate. Like him, I declare an interest. I was a teacher of history for 37 years, but I reassure hon. Members that I could not find my teaching notes last night, so they are saved from that. I will address some of the challenges that have been laid out today.
The legacy of the first world war is not only war memorials, although they are important. In the Fleetwood part of my constituency, we have a memorial park that was built following the war. The friends of the memorial park, and their chairman Les Fletcher, have bid for a grant to get the whole park, including its gates, restored, which may be an opportunity.
Westfield war memorial village in Lancaster was constructed for disabled soldiers with funds raised from private money. If Members look at the official books on Westfield war memorial village, which still houses 189 residents, they might be amused to learn that, apparently, despite the money having been raised, the building of the village, shops and workplaces for disabled ex-soldiers was hindered by the Government, the Ministry of Labour and the trade unions. The village is still shining with people still living there. There are similar things in every constituency.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys, when I watched the Iraq war—I was not then a Member of this place—I used to scream at the television, “Will these people please read some history?” or “Has anyone picked up the books and actually looked at the background?” Obviously, a standard comment is that people do not learn from history, but they could at least be informed about it.
My hon. Friend mentioned Syria, and I would also pinpoint Bosnia, where the whole shebang happened; it is where the archduke was assassinated. When people stand on that spot in Sarajevo, they think, “What has changed in Bosnia since then?” Four years ago, I met the grand mufti, the senior Muslim cleric, and his first words in the big mosque in Sarajevo were, “This mosque is the Emperor mosque. It was rebuilt by Emperor Franz Joseph, and the last time this country was run properly and efficiently was by the Habsburgs.” I have some sympathy with that. There are national and European lessons that we may need to address during this long centenary.
My other point, again to follow the challenge of my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland, is on the diversity of the troops who went to war. In the words of Baroness Warsi:
“Our boys weren’t just Tommies—they were Tariqs and Tajinders”.
When people go to the war graves, as I did a few months ago, they see the numbers; 140,000 troops from the Indian empire fought on the western front. When people see the Sikh memorials, the Jewish and Christian graves and the Muslim graves facing Mecca, they have respect for the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which is still reburying people. That is just amazing. Only a few months ago, I saw in the village of Hollebeke the graves of six Chinese people who died as part of the Chinese Labour Corps; a huge wreath had been laid by the Chinese Government.
The centenary we are commemorating has many national and international levels. In our own country, given the diversity and the challenges that it is creating at the moment, we have to bring in every part of Britain’s new communities because they were involved in the first world war; 1.2 million people from the Indian empire fought across Africa, the western front and the middle east.
I found a quote from a Muslim soldier when I was looking at some letters out there—I do not know how one reads it in one sense. He was writing back to his family in the then undivided India, and he put in the letter:
“What better occasion than this to show the loyalty of my family to the British Government?”
What a lesson that is to us today, given what we face. Many Members of Parliament for constituencies that perhaps lack the diversity of our major cities can still ensure that when we are in schools to talk about the first world war and when we are at the memorials, people know that a vast range of soldiers and workers from across the old British empire supported this country and saw us through to the end. That is a lesson that we need to be punching out there, and it is a lesson for all of us today. It still rides strongly and gives us a purpose as Members of Parliament.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan, and it is a pleasure to follow the fascinating contributions of the Members who have spoken in this debate. I particularly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) on securing this debate and on his fascinating introduction.
We are surrounded by the first world war in the Palace of Westminster, in every community in the country and in Whitehall, which is dominated by the Cenotaph. People cannot escape from the first world war, and in remembering it as we draw closer to the centenary of its outbreak we must remember, as many hon. Members have pointed out in this debate, the incredible change it brought to the lives of almost everyone in the country. We must remember that the first world war touched their lives, and the political consequences of that war affect our lives today, too. We must remember that it was of a scale unimaginable to people before the war. We must remember the stories that came from the war in the history books, the poems and the diaries, which tell of a conflict that cannot be recognised in terms of warfare today. The lives and experiences of the people who went through it are almost impossible for people in a contemporary setting to imagine.
Philip Sassoon, who was Member of Parliament for Hythe during the first world war, visited the site of the battle of Waterloo in 1920. His recollection was that it was “Lilliputian” compared with the western front and that the battle of Waterloo, great and defining as it was, had more in common with the battles of ancient Greece than it had with Neuve-Chapelle or the battle of the Somme. The first world war was something totally new and of an incredible order.
The first world war affected fighting men from across the world who came to Britain to fight on behalf of the empire as British subjects under the King. We must, therefore, consider not only what the significant sites of the first world war meant to the whole country, but to the broader fighting community across the world. My interest has been drawn specifically to the Step Short project in Folkestone, of which I have been chairman for the past six years and which commemorates the role the town played during the first world war.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland mentioned, it was not tens of thousands of men who came through Folkestone during the first world war but tens of millions. Nearly 10 million men came through Folkestone, which was the main port of embarkation to the western front not just for British soldiers but for soldiers from across the world who came to serve. That can be seen marked in the graves at Shorncliffe military cemetery, which is one of the Commonwealth war graves, stationed next to Shorncliffe barracks just outside Folkestone, which was home to tens of thousands of Canadian servicemen. The graves of members of the Chinese Labour Corps who died in the first world war can also be found there. Folkestone, similar to Norfolk, was also home to tens of thousands of Belgian émigrés who came to Britain to escape the advancing German army in the early days of the war in the summer of 1914, so it has an international significance, too.
For me, the important thing about Folkestone is that it touches the experiences of probably almost every fighting family in the country. At some point, their ancestor was in Folkestone during the war, and it is a site that can mean something to people across the country as they consider the centenary of the first world war.
The House of Commons must consider an appropriate way to recognise the sacrifices of families across the country during the war. We must consider where we can create places in the United Kingdom for them to go to try to gain some insight on the life and experience of their ancestors. That is why there is still an incredible, enduring interest in the first world war battlefields in western Europe. The tour operators say that more people make the journeys now than for decades. On any night at the Menin gate at Ypres, one can see large numbers of people gathering to stand and hear the “Last Post” played. Schoolchildren still make battlefield tours of the great cemeteries, such as Tyne Cot and the memorial at Thiepval, to understand what went on.
We should create more opportunities within this country for people to visit similar sites with broad significance. In Folkestone, we have embraced that idea by creating a memorial walk tracing the last steps of the men as they marched from the town down to the harbour where the boats waited to take them to France, and we are raising money to create a new memorial arch to stand over that route, or close to the site where a memorial arch was put up between the wars to mark the silver jubilee of King George V and the coronation of King George VI. It bore the simple message “In our rejoicing, we still remember them.” The road down which the men marched was rededicated after the war as the road of remembrance. As other hon. Members have mentioned, there are physical war memorials listing the names of men who fought, but there are also other memorials that recognise the symbolism of and people’s emotional attachment to significant sites in this country during the first world war.
In Folkestone, as my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland mentioned, we also have air raid sites. The first major air raid on the civilian population carried out by German aircraft in this country was at Folkestone in 1917, on Tontine street. It killed 71 people out of a clear blue sky. There were no air raid sirens and no warnings; it was not something that anyone expected. Many people lived through it, and many have family members who were victims of that attack. The site in Tontine street means something to them.
We can help create memorials, and we can support events as Members of the House of Commons. Folkestone seeks to do so by creating a new memorial arch and a memorial march commemorating the journey to war on the anniversary of the start of the war next August. On 4 August 2014, a series of centenaries will start that will run through the period of the first world war, touching the anniversaries of the major conflicts and battles and building up to the centenary of the armistice.
The major museums are doing a great deal of work to support the first world war centenary, particularly the Imperial War museum, which is creating online resources that anyone in the country can use to pass on the stories of people in their community. I also thank the National Army museum, which has agreed to bring part of its first world war collection out of London to Folkestone for 10 months in 2014-15 while its galleries are being refurbished, and to create an exhibition with the people of Folkestone to tell part of the story of the town during the war, as well as the story of men as they made the journey to war.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland for securing this debate. It is the third debate on the first world war centenary in which I have participated during the past couple of years; I am sure that there will be many more opportunities to discuss it as we get closer to that time. It will be an important series of anniversaries and commemorations, starting on 4 August next year, and will mean a great deal to people across the country.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I did not originally intend to take part in this debate. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson), who had the initiative to secure it and who introduced it with his customary gravitas and with information that he doubtless learned during his time at Sandhurst and elsewhere. This has been an absolutely fascinating debate. I have been prompted to take part in it because I have distinguished two themes that I think will be reflected in discussions of the first world war across the nation.
The first was ably outlined by the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), to whom I pay tribute. He has made clear his opposition to war and his hatred of it on so many occasions over many years in this place, and he has done so extremely convincingly and with great passion. I might surprise him by saying that I agree with him absolutely. All war is hell. There is no question about it. All war is a disgrace, and it should not occur. How human beings ever thought it up in the first place is hard to imagine. Whether we are talking about people killed in warfare, those who are injured or maimed or those with mental illness as a result, it is an absolute blot on humanity that such things occur. I entirely endorse his hatred of it.
Equally, I agree with the hon. Member for Newport West that most wars occur for all the wrong reasons. We in this place and our ancestors for over 1,000 years have got all wars wrong. Even recent wars, without entering into recent politics, have occurred for all the wrong reasons. They have been ill thought through. As was said about the first world war, lions have been led by donkeys.
Although we should not renege on or stray from that clear theme, it is entirely separate from the one that we have been discussing here, which is how we commemorate those who gave their lives and so much else for their nation. The motto of my own regiment, the Honourable Artillery Company, is “Arma pacis fulcra”, or “Arms are the balance of peace”. Those young boys marched out of the gates of Armoury house in the City of London because they were told to do so by their officers, who were told to do so by the Government. They did so for King and country. They did not set off from Armoury house saying, “I wonder whether this war is right, wrong or indifferent”; they set off because they were acting under orders.
The same applies, incidentally, to those people who have stood on the high street of Royal Wootton Bassett in my constituency on 427 separate occasions during the last few years to pay tribute to the dead bodies returning from Afghanistan and Iraq. The people of Wootton Bassett were not saying that they approved or disapproved of the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan; they had no views on those wars. They took the view that this was not the occasion to enter into the politics of it. They knew that it was right to pay their respects to the soldiers who had given their lives in those wars.
Martin Horwood
I am grateful. I understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying, although he might find that modern historians are a little kinder to the allied leadership in the run-up to the war than he suggested. As well as the horror and the courage that will be recognised during the national commemoration of the first world war and its outbreak, it is right that Parliament address the complexities of the politics both inside Parliament and inside Government. It was a first and, for the Liberal party, a traumatic experience of coalition politics.
Mr Gray
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but I suspect that I absolutely disagree with him. There have been wars for the past 1,000 years, going back to the battle of Sherston in my constituency in 917, when King Athelstan fought off King Canute. Is it right that we in Parliament should consider whether Athelstan was right or wrong to fight that battle with Canute in 917? Of course not. Equally, we should not reinvent the causes of the first world war. That is not a matter for us; it is a matter for historians. We in Parliament must look to the present and the future. Reinventing the thought behind the first world war is not our job at all.
First, again, I agree strongly with the hon. Member for Newport West that all wars are bad. Of course there are lessons to be learned; we are considering whether to sell arms to Syria. We should remember that all wars are bad. Secondly, we should also remember that all wars are badly thought out; that applies today as before. Thirdly, the purpose of today’s debate, leaving aside all the politics and history, is that it is right that we in this place should say to the people to whom we give instructions, “You are doing the right thing. We respect and honour what you do, and we honour the fact that you have given your lives, livelihoods and very often your health or your mental welfare under order from us. It is right that we should pay you respect for doing so.”
I enjoy the occasions when, twice a year, each brigade returning from Afghanistan enters Carriage Gates and we as a Parliament pay our respects to those soldiers. We are not involving them in politics or asking them to endorse our views on Afghanistan; we are thanking them for all that they have done in Afghanistan as soldiers under our orders. That is what we must do with regard to the first world war. Those boys, and a few girls, gave their lives, their livelihoods and their health. We must thank, respect and honour them for what they did for us.
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I congratulate the hon. Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) on securing this important debate, and I thank him for the work that he does as a member of the world war one centenary advisory board. I do not think that I had the benefit of his teaching when I was at Sandhurst, although I could be wrong. I agree that Parliament can play an important role and that as parliamentarians, we all have an important role to play in encouraging and supporting activities in our constituencies. I know from my constituency that there is huge interest in the commemoration.
There have been a number of thoughtful contributions to the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and the hon. Members for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) and for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) have all spoken with passion and authority. They spoke with different emphases, but they all agreed that it is important for Parliament to play a leading role in the commemoration. The numbers present to support the debate are a welcome sight, and confirm my belief that the issue brings us together and is one on which we should be united.
I pay tribute to the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), in his role as the Prime Minister’s special representative, for his dedication to the task of assuring an appropriate commemoration. I hope that he will not mind me saying—something that always comes with a degree of qualification—that, for this work, he is a round peg in a round hole. He and the Minister present in the Chamber know, I am sure, that the Opposition will work closely with the Government on the commemoration. We are united in the view that it is important and that it must be done in the right way.
In order to inform the work that we do in this place, it is worth reflecting that most people appreciate the scale of the loss of life in the first world war, although it is still difficult to comprehend. They know something of the 750,000 British soldiers who died, or the 1.5 million who returned home injured, and they might have heard of the 20,000 British soldiers killed on the first day of the Somme or recall Wilfred Owen’s imagery of choking soldiers drowning in a sea of chlorine gas. Sacrifice on such a scale must always be remembered. It must be commemorated.
In Parliament, however, it is important that we remember the first world war for more than the industrialisation of death that followed in its wake. The role of Government and of Parliament therefore is to ensure that the commemoration of the centenary is respectful, thoughtful and reflective, without of course in any way glorifying the nature of the war and the appalling human sacrifice that took place. This is a commemoration, not a celebration.
The first world war was a hugely significant moment in history, important for Britain economically, politically and socially. It was a cause, directly or indirectly, of all the major events of the 20th century. At home, the first world war changed much for Britain, and our reliance on Commonwealth countries for soldiers as well as materials led to a desire for greater independence by nations who no longer wished to be subordinate to the empire. The war also changed the terms of the relationship between England and the other constituent parts of the United Kingdom.
Britain was changed politically and socially for ever. Politically, the end of the war triggered a flight to extremes. Socially, the war gave rise to the lost generation; so many men of marriageable age died that 50% of women remained single in 1931, and 35% of them did not marry while of childbearing age. The conscription of so many men during the war, however, led to an opportunity for women in the workplace, and the importance of that change cannot be underestimated. The other great social change to come from the first world war was of course suffrage. Before the war, neither working men nor women had a vote. The sacrifice of men of all classes, combined with the movement of women into the working world and the campaigns of the suffragists and suffragettes, compelled politicians to change that situation. We should also reflect on that in this place.
The importance of the first world war cannot be counted simply in terms of battlefield casualties or military innovation. There is no doubt about that. From its influence and its timing, it is the single most significant event of the 20th century. As such, it is something we must remember, we must commemorate, we must learn from and we must educate our children about. The centenary is an excellent opportunity to teach younger people about the first world war in a direct and age-appropriate way and to initiate informed discussion about our country and our history. I very much agree with the suggestion of the hon. Member for Broadland that we should invite the Youth Parliament to come to this place and debate those important issues.
As other Members have noted, the Imperial War museum will play a pivotal role in the commemoration and will be opening groundbreaking new galleries at its London site, as well as at its Manchester site. Those efforts will reach a wider audience than ever before and create a legacy for future generations that will hopefully revitalise the way we teach the history of the first world war. In addition to the £9 million already donated, the Heritage Lottery Fund will give £6 million to projects marking the centenary. It provides funds to help local areas and communities explore their history and heritage and to understand the war’s impact on their communities. The lottery money will be crucial to helping local communities in their important commemoration events. Many other organisations will be involved, from the Royal British Legion to the Woodland Trust and many more besides.
There is huge interest around the country in ensuring that in every hamlet, village, town and city—in every corner—we make the most of this national and international period of commemoration. Members throughout the House will take an active part in activities in their constituencies, but above all we must take the opportunity to remember, because only through remembering and through keeping the first world war in the national consciousness will we truly understand its impact on British society and, in so doing, understand what it means to be British. Parliament will seek to play an appropriate role, in conjunction with many others, to ensure that the centenary of the first world war is commemorated in a way that is thoughtful, respectful and befitting of such an important event in our history.
The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson)
Thank you for chairing the debate, Mrs Riordan. In responding, rather than reading through my prepared speech, I will try to pick up on the various contributions made by hon. Members, commenting on them as appropriate.
The best place to start is by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson), not only for his typically erudite and thoughtful contribution this morning, but for all the work he has already done in and around the commemoration as a member of the advisory group and as a commissioner of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.
I also give my hon. Friend a probably long-overdue thank you for all the hours of his life he spent trying to educate me when I was in my 20s; he was kind to say it was 20 years ago, but in all honesty I fear it was 20 years plus VAT. As I have got older, I have begun to feel increasingly that if there were a period in my life that I could revisit, it would be then, because understanding the lessons of history allows us to make much better judgments about the present. I wish that I had sat in my hon. Friend’s lectures less exhausted by the various other activities that marked the day at Sandhurst, and better able to listen to the many words of wisdom that he offered then, as he has this morning.
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to talk about the role of the National Archives. The process of discovery that can be facilitated by it for individuals, families and communities will be a key part of the period of remembrance. He could not be more right about the role of our allies in other Commonwealth countries. To be honest, that had not really dawned on me until a visit to Australia, when I was looking at tourism and sporting links post-2012. I took some time out to go around the national war memorial in Canberra, which I was shown by Dr Brendan Nelson. It is engaged in completely revitalising and renewing its galleries, as we are in this country.
I had not realised the extent to which the first world war marked the moment when Australia came together as a nation for the first time. For Australians, the centenary of the war—Gallipoli, in particular—is an extraordinarily important national moment of remembrance and of nationhood. If that is true for Australia, it is true for many other places around the world.
Ensuring that such work is properly co-ordinated and dealt with appropriately is key to the success of commemoration. The body that my hon. Friend is associated with, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, is central to delivery. My hon. Friend is also right to talk about the effect on the House. The idea of some form of book is excellent, and I hope that he will pursue it with Mr Speaker.
I think back to my hon. Friend’s excellent history of General Percival and the fall of Singapore. It brilliantly brought out the human element of that entire tragedy; something like that, which draws together the experiences of parliamentarians and Members of the House and which we could all read and learn from, would be a fantastic contribution. He is absolutely right to encourage parliamentarians to become involved and to lead this event. I could not agree more with everything he said and I thank him for his contribution.
The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) told the powerful story of his father and his post-war fate. The story is tragic and there is no other answer. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government’s approach is not to celebrate the war, but to enable a great act of remembrance. No Government of any colour in this country hand down an authorised version of history. We should put the facts before people to educate them and then allow them to remember the event in a way that is fit for them. The hon. Gentleman will have a contribution to make to that like everyone else.
My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) spoke about war memorials and his work as the Second Church Estates Commissioner. The issue of war memorials has worried me for many years. In my county, they were put up next to what were then quite small roads, but have now turned into major A roads. Memorials have suffered natural degradation from heavy lorries passing them on the way to Folkestone and other ports of embarkation, and in some places people may want to move them to a place that is more appropriate for acts of remembrance. I think that will be a key part of the commemorations.
I very much enjoyed my hon. Friend’s story about the Sussex Yeomanry. Perhaps I may tell him gently, having joined the armed forces 10 years after him, that one of the great events of the year was always the second world war reunion at Combermere barracks. A young officer could sit at the feet of people who had taken bridges during the second world war by stripping doors off houses and laying them across the fabric of the bridges to get armoured cars across them to secure the other side. Understanding such stories is key.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) is always modest about the fact that he served in the Ulster Defence Regiment; I did not realise that until I looked him up in connection with legislation with which we were both involved. I pay tribute to him as a former soldier—particularly that form of service. Any of us who served in Northern Ireland know that soldiering in one’s own community and going back to one’s own home at night still under threat was a very different experience from that of those of us who came to the Province and at least went back to a secure force base afterwards.
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will play an ongoing role in remembering the UDR’s considerable contribution during the troubles. As much as or perhaps even more than other places in the country, Northern Ireland is synonymous with the public service inherent in service in the armed forces. The war was a key period in Northern Ireland’s history and I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman, with his background, will be on hand to lead and help with the period of remembrance.
My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) talked about the role played by MPs. Some years ago, I tried to buy a sword that came up for auction at Bonhams. It was supposed to have been the property of the first Member of Parliament to have died in the first world war. I may be on dangerous ground and I will check this story, but I think his name was Edward Boyd. One of his descendants—I think it was his grandson—played a considerable role in Northern Irish politics thereafter. Edward Boyd had been in the armed services in the 1880s and served in the South African campaign. He left the armed services and was elected to Parliament in 1910. He rejoined at the start of the first world war but was wiped out in a matter of minutes. He survived for only five or 10 minutes in the first campaign in which he took part. I will ensure that I research his story more closely.
My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), another historian who gave us the benefit of that dimension, spoke absolutely correctly about the link between international communities—the Commonwealth, which played such an important part—and existing local communities in this country. He is absolutely right that it will be a powerful moment throughout communities in this country when people link with their forebears and engage in an act of remembrance.
My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) referred to the Step Short project, and we have been here before. I cannot move in Kent without talking about it, and I notice that it has started to appear on national briefing sheets, so he has done a splendid job in bringing it to everyone’s attention. It is a remarkable that 10 million soldiers embarked for the front through Folkestone.
I was amused by my hon. Friend’s remark about Philip Sassoon, one of his predecessors, and his comment that the battle of Waterloo was like many battles of ancient Greece. When I had returned from the first Gulf war, someone deconstructed the tank tactics there and they were remarkably similar to those employed by Hannibal with elephants at the battle of Cannae thousands of years before. There is an indication that in military affairs everything changes and nothing changes much.
My hon. Friend made a powerful point about the role of museums and particularly the National Army museum. I have always thought that we underestimate the role of local museums, and my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland touched on the importance of local communities’ remembrance. Local museums throughout the country will put on first world war-centric exhibitions that will allow people to discover what their communities were like at the outbreak of war. They will play an important role in that.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray), who is also a former soldier, talked about the importance of respect and of honouring those who served in the armed forces as a result of decisions made here. That is a key part of the educational role.
I thank the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), who speaks for the Opposition and is also a former soldier, for his confirmation of the Opposition’s support and his commitment to ensure that the remembrance takes place in the right way. He talked about the importance of that. Since becoming involved, I have become aware from some people I have spoken to of a slight concern that there is no central theme. If there is one, it is not celebration—I hope that that puts the hon. Gentleman’s mind at rest—but remembrance. That is exactly what this is about, and historically it is what Remembrance Sunday has been about. “Remembrance” is the word that sums it up.
The Government have laid out three themes for the commemoration: remembrance, youth and education. Two strands that have come through clearly this morning are remembrance and the important concept of service. The Government’s role is to identify and lead the key national acts of remembrance, but after that to provide a framework so that local communities—I put Parliament in that bracket—can find ways of remembering the anniversary that are appropriate for them.
I am sure that the phrase “to allow a thousand flowers to bloom underneath it” is correct. Some excellent suggestions have been made today and I hope that for all of us it will be the start of a period of exploration and discovery that leads to an appropriate act of remembrance of this great national event.
Ukrainian Holodomor
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mrs Riordan. Interestingly, this debate follows one about the first world war. The Minister came into the Chamber just after what was said about how we remember our past and how that is very important for our future.
The purpose of the debate is to call on the United Kingdom Government officially to recognise a dreadful and tragic part of Ukraine’s history as genocide. I have met the Ukrainian community in Derby, who are still distressed that we have never recognised the Ukrainian holodomor as genocide, even though other countries have, including some in the Commonwealth.
The Ukrainian holodomor refers most specifically to the brutal, artificial famine imposed on the Ukrainian people in 1932 and 1933 by Stalin’s regime. In its broadest sense, the holodomor refers to the Ukrainian genocide that began in 1929 with massive waves of deadly deportations of Ukraine’s prospering farmers, as well as the deportation and execution of its religious, academic and cultural leaders, which culminated in the devastating forced famine that killed millions of innocent men, women and children. Between 1932 and 1933, a man-made famine raged through Ukraine and Kuban, resulting in the deaths of between 7 million and 12 million people, mainly Ukrainians, and it was instigated by the Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin.
There are of course deniers of the holodomor, as there are those who deny the existence of the holocaust. In fact, there is a division of opinion in Ukraine on the number who died—from 2 million or 3 million up to 12 million—but they agree that it was a man-made famine directed at Ukrainians in Ukraine and Kuban, and that it meets the criteria for the definition of genocide in the 1948 UN convention. It is hardly surprising that there is some confusion about the holodomor, because it is poorly documented, the records were manipulated and those who conducted the census were executed.
The main goal of the artificial famine was to break the spirit of Ukrainian farmers and force them into collectivism. It was used as an effective tool to break the resistance of Ukrainian culture. Moscow perceived it as a threat to Russo-centric Soviet rule, and therefore acted brutally and sadistically to crush cultural resistance. The goal of the artificial famine was to ethnically cleanse Ukrainians from vast areas.
In 1932, Stalin increased the basic grain procurement quota for Ukraine by 44%, knowing that such an extraordinarily high quota would result in a grain shortage and the inability of Ukrainian peasants to feed themselves. Such a goal would not have been achievable had the communists not already ruined the nation’s productivity by eliminating the best farmers.
That year, not a single village was able to meet the impossible quota, which far exceeded Ukraine’s best output in previous years. Soviet law was quite clear that no grain could be given to feed the peasants until the quota was met. Stalin then issued one of the cruellest orders of his career: if quotas were not met, all grain was to be confiscated. As one Soviet author wrote much later:
“All the grain without exception was requisitioned for the fulfilment of the Plan, including that set aside for sowing, fodder, and even that previously issued to the kolkhozniki”—
the collectivised peasants—
“as payment for their work.”
The authorisation included seizure of all food from all households, and any home that did not turn over all its grain was accused of hoarding state property.
With the aid of military troops, USSR Government secret police and the USSR law enforcement agency, Communist party officials moved against peasants who might have been hiding grain from the Soviet Government. Of course, to try to avoid starvation, nearly every family attempted to conceal food, as we would expect: if people’s children were dying, they would not want to let their children die, never mind themselves. Experience soon made the brigades proficient at detecting even the cleverest hiding places. The result was mass starvation that took millions of lives during the terrible winter of 1932-33. Food was nearly impossible to find anywhere. Unable to get food, many ate whatever passed for it—weeds, leaves, tree bark and insects; some were lucky enough to be able to live on small woodland animals.
In August 1932, the Communist party of the USSR passed a law mandating the death penalty for theft of social property. Watchtowers were built and were manned by trigger-happy young communists. Thousands of peasants were shot for attempting to take a handful of grain or a few beets from the kolkhozes to feed their starving families.
To put that into perspective, at the height of the genocide, Ukrainians died at a rate of 25,000 per day, and nearly one in four rural Ukrainians perished as a direct result. At the same time, the Soviet Union dumped 1.7 million tonnes of grain on western markets. Nearly a fifth of a tonne of grain was exported for each person who died of starvation, and more than 3 million children born in 1932 and 1933 died of starvation.
Many peasants attempted to reach Ukraine’s cities, such as Kiev, where factory workers were still allowed a little pay and food. However, in December 1932, the communists introduced internal passports. That made it impossible for a villager to get a city job without the party’s permission, which was almost universally denied. The internal passport system was implemented to restrict the movements of Ukrainian peasants so that they could not travel in search of food. Ukrainian grain was collected and stored in grain elevators guarded by military and secret police units, while Ukrainians starved in the immediate area. That Moscow-instigated action was a deliberate act of genocide against the Ukrainian peasants.
Peasants hoped to get to Poland, Romania or even Russia, where there was no famine, but emigration was strictly forbidden. Ukrainian train stations were swamped with the starving who hoped to sneak aboard a train or to beg in the hope that a passenger on a passing train might throw them a bread crust. They were repelled by guards, who found themselves faced with the problem of removing the countless corpses of those who had starved and which littered the stations.
As I said, at the famine’s height, 25,000 people died per day. As the winter of 1932-33 wore on, Ukraine became a panorama of horror. The roadsides were filled with the corpses of those who had died seeking food. The bodies, many of which snow concealed until the spring thaw, were unceremoniously dumped into mass graves by the communists. Many others died of starvation in their homes, with some choosing to end the process by suicide, commonly by hanging—if they had the strength to do it. One American correspondent reported:
“The bodies of some were reduced to skeletons, with their skin hanging grayish-yellow and loose over their bones. Their faces looked like rubber masks with large, bulging, immobile eyes. Their necks seemed to have shrunk onto their shoulders. The look in their eyes was glassy, heralding their approaching death.”
The worst paradox is that much of the confiscated grain was exported to the west, and large portions were simply dumped in the sea or allowed to rot by the Soviets. For example, a huge supply of grain lay decaying under guard at a station in Poltava province. Passing it in a train, an American correspondent saw
“huge pyramids of grain, piled high, and smoking from internal combustion.”
In the Lubotino region, thousands of tonnes of confiscated potatoes were allowed to rot, surrounded by barbed wire.
News of this act of brutality was got out to the west, including to Germany in observations from its consulate in Kharkiv, and to Britain by various journalists, such as Gareth Jones—I have just heard that a book about him is to be published imminently—and Malcolm Muggeridge, who never forgot what he saw. In Canada and the United States, the Ukrainian community explained what was happening.
The genocide continued for several years with further destruction of Ukraine’s political leadership, resettlement of its depopulated areas with other ethnic groups, blatant public denial of famine and prosecution of those who dared to speak of it publicly. It was the official policy of the Soviet Union to deny the existence of a famine and therefore to refuse any outside assistance. Anyone claiming that there was in fact a famine was accused of spreading anti-Soviet propaganda. Inside the Soviet Union, a person could be arrested for even using the words “famine”, “hunger” or “starvation” in a sentence.
The holodomor was kept out of official history until 1991, when Ukraine—a country of 47 million people—finally won its independence. As James Perloff wrote:
“The Holodomor stands as a permanent warning of what happens when unlimited state power destroys God-given rights. A cursory review of America’s Bill of Rights demonstrates that virtually every right mentioned was trampled on by Stalin in Ukraine. Yet although the dictator used every means to eradicate the people’s will, the national spirit lived on unbreakably, until Ukraine gained its independence.”
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend for securing this important debate. There is a vibrant Ukrainian community in Huddersfield and Colne Valley, and I celebrated Christmas with them in January earlier this year. Four years ago, following an exhibition on the holodomor in the Kalyna community centre in Huddersfield, Kirklees council, my local council, voted to accept that the holodomor was genocide. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is now time for the United Kingdom to recognise formally that these horrific events were in fact genocide?
Pauline Latham
Yes, and I thank my hon. Friend for intervening with that point. That is exactly what I hope the Minister will be able to say in his response to the debate, because innocent people who have come to this country and are contributing to society in Britain in a very positive way deserve recognition of their horrific past.
Ukraine’s Government are now asking the United Nations to recognise the disaster as an act of genocide. In recent years, the then Ukrainian President, Viktor Yushchenko, ordered the release of old KGB records on the famine. With that information, it has become very apparent that the famine was a deliberate act of genocide—a method to ethnically cleanse Ukrainians from the territories of Ukraine and parts of Russia. At first, only several thousand documents were released. Another batch of 25,000 documents is in the process of being declassified. As more and more documents are released, this event in Ukrainian history has taken on a very ominous tone.
On 28 November 2006, the Parliament of Ukraine—the Verkhovna Rada—passed a law defining the holodomor as a deliberate act of genocide. Since then, many nations have recognised that the holodomor was an act of genocide against the Ukrainian people. Those nations include Australia, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Estonia, Ecuador, Georgia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Mexico, Paraguay, Peru, Poland and the United States. Other countries have made a holodomor declaration. They include Argentina, the Czech Republic, Chile, the Slovak Republic, Spain and the Balearic islands, and the Vatican.
Russia is still in complete denial that the event occurred and that it was a deliberate act. In fact, in Russia, it was made illegal to commemorate the event. The success of using food as a weapon to control, punish and eliminate a people was first used by Soviet communists. Since then, it has become a standard tool in the arsenal of communist regimes to control, punish and eliminate people and it has been used by such regimes as China, North Korea, Ethiopia, Cambodia and Zimbabwe.
I am asking the Minister to investigate seriously the issue of the Ukrainian holodomor, which I have raised today. It is time for the UK to follow the example of the countries that I have mentioned—many from the Commonwealth—and set the history record straight once and for all. We have a large Ukrainian community in this country, and I believe that we owe it to them to recognise the extermination of millions of their ancestors who, through no fault of their own, suffered an horrific time. It can be defined only as genocide. That community would be extremely grateful to the Government if they were to change their mind and redefine the holodomor as the genocide that it feels like to so many people. This is not about politics, reparations or blame, but about basic human morality and respect for life.
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) for her success in securing this debate and for the way in which she made her case. She did so with a commitment, eloquence and passion that did justice to the gravity of the appalling events that we are debating.
To say that the famine that culminated in 1932 and 1933 was a terrible tragedy is to underestimate the sheer brutality and inhumanity of what took place. I think that my hon. Friend would be the first to agree that the anecdotes and illustrations on which she drew in her speech can give us only the briefest glimpse of an horrific picture that was the daily experience of suffering among people in Ukraine during that time. The numbers of people who were involved and who suffered are staggering. Across vast swathes of what was then the Soviet Union—notably in Ukraine, but also as far west as Moldova and eastwards into Kazakhstan—millions of people starved to death because of the policies of their own Government.
It is a cause for some heart searching in the western world that for decades this tragedy was often overlooked or ignored. Worse, it was in some quarters denied, even among some who had pretentions to serious scholarship. Of course, countless people inside and outside Ukraine have fought to keep alive the memory of those who died in this atrocity and to raise awareness of the holodomor, but probably in the west it was pioneering historians of their time, such as Robert Conquest, who first drew attention to what had happened. I still remember reading as a schoolboy the first volume of Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s “The Gulag Archipelago” and finding there his account of the famine set in its broader context of policies of persecution, policies sometimes of slaughter, that were directed by Lenin and Stalin against the peoples over whom they ruled. What the efforts of those historians and of those many people inside and outside Ukraine have achieved is that people across the world continue to remember those who were lost and reflect today on the warning from history that the famine clearly provides.
There is no question, in the Government’s view, but that the famine took place as a result of Stalin and the actions of his Government. It was a man-made tragedy. It is clear, too, that it was within modern Ukraine where the terrible consequences of those actions were most heavily borne. On the question whether Ukraine was specifically targeted, whether this was a campaign directed by Stalin against any manifestation of Ukrainian nationhood, that is certainly widely believed, although it is not without controversy inside Ukraine, but it is also true that other parts of the then Soviet Union were gravely affected by the famine. In Kazakhstan, for example, the death toll as a proportion of the local population was higher than that in Ukraine. Areas of rural Russia were also affected; innocent people died there, too.
However, it is also clear that the Soviet regime felt deep hostility towards any manifestation of Ukrainian nationalism and it must have known that policies targeting the agricultural regions of the Soviet Union would have a disproportionate effect on Ukraine. The fact that, during the famine, Stalin closed the eastern border of Ukraine to prevent starving peasants from entering Russia in search of food is perhaps one of the strongest indications that his policy was, at least in part, motivated by a hostility towards Ukraine as a nation, with an identity, tradition and culture of its own. I think that no reasonable man or woman today would deny the horror, the atrocity, that was the holodomor.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire asks whether the Government will recognise the holodomor formally as a genocide. Given the history of the holodomor, I can well understand the depth and strength of feeling in favour of doing that and why some Parliaments around the world have already done so. As the House knows, there is still a debate among historians and others on the question of recognition of the holodomor as genocide. Genocide has a defined status in international law, following the 1948 UN genocide convention. The holodomor predates the establishment of the concept of genocide in international law and the convention was not drafted to apply retrospectively.
Government policy is that recognition of genocides should be a matter for judicial decision, bearing in mind the terms of the convention and the consequences for individuals and Governments that can follow from the designation of their actions as genocide. It should be for judges, rather than Governments or non-judicial bodies, to make a designation of genocide. Recognition decisions should be based on a credible judicial process, and the courts are best placed to judge what are essentially criminal matters. The British Government have not proactively designated any atrocities as genocide. Those we have recognised—the holocaust, the 1994 killings in Rwanda and the 1995 massacre at Srebrenica—are all cases in which judicial bodies had judged the outrages to be genocide, in line with the definition in international law.
We have made clear, and will continue to make clear, our abiding horror at what happened in Ukraine in the 1930s. Every year, the Ukrainian Government host a formal ceremony of commemoration in Kiev. They invite foreign ambassadors, and our ambassador normally represents the UK at that event. To mark the 75th anniversary of the holodomor in 2008, their Royal Highnesses the Duke of York and Princess Eugenie travelled to Kiev, took part in the ceremony and laid wreathes at the Kiev memorial to the victims of the holodomor.
I give my hon. Friend and the House the undertaking that we will not forget or overlook what happened. It is important for all of us that Governments and peoples throughout Europe continue to learn the lessons from what happened in Ukraine and elsewhere in eastern Europe in those years, to ensure that no one is again tempted towards policies that could have such an appalling effect on innocent men, women and children. We will look for other opportunities to demonstrate our solidarity with the people of Ukraine. We will mark with them the opportunity to mourn those who suffered or lost their lives during the holodomor and recall the importance of remembrance of the atrocity for the new generations growing to adulthood today. Nothing should diminish the horror or magnitude of the events in Ukraine and elsewhere in the Soviet Union in the 1930s. Man-made policies, a brutal dictatorship and a pitiless ideology led to the deaths of many millions of innocent people. That is something that the world cannot and should never forget.
SMEs (Public Sector Procurement)
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)
In one moment I shall call the first speaker in the debate. I can confidently predict that after Mr Irranca-Davies has made his opening speech, I will not be setting a time limit. The next speakers will be Andrew Bingham and Iain McKenzie, and we will then see who else turns up. I shall, however, call the Front-Bench spokespeople at no later than 3.30 pm, and perhaps sooner.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
I admire your confidence, Mr Hollobone; I have been known to wax eloquent for days, but on this occasion I will be happy to allow others to contribute as well.
This is a welcome opportunity to debate an important subject. There is cross-party interest in ensuring that procurement works far better for small and medium-sized enterprises than it has done in the past. The Government here are doing work on that, and I will refer to some of the innovative and pioneering work of the Welsh Government. I also want to deal with some of the myths about why we cannot do more—not least, those about the European Union.
I know that props are not allowed in this or any other parliamentary Chamber, but I have in front of me an exposé from Farmers Weekly, which ran a good campaign called “Get Better, Get British”. We know that over many years, if not decades, British farmers have been asked, often quite rightly, to invest heavily in the highest standards of animal welfare, environmental measures and so on, but doing that brings costs. In the UK, we now have British buying standards, and the question is this: how do we translate those standards in food produce into being represented by SMEs that can supply to local government, the NHS, the Ministry of Defence and others? That does not seem to be happening.
If I may, I will briefly plug the Farmers Weekly “Get Better, Get British” campaign, which identified that one in 10 NHS hospital trusts sources 50% or less of its food from Britain. The campaign also points out that the cost of feeding a patient varies between £14.40 and £2.11 per day across trusts. Most people would think, “We can see how you could use good ingredients and get good nutritional standards by spending £14.40, sourcing, where the standards are appropriate, locally and regionally from British farmers.”
However, hospital spending on food goes down to as low as £2.11 per day. Most people would struggle to explain not simply the divergence in the figures but how the nutrient value can be achieved with that little money, and how there can be procurement for SMEs within the locality and the region. The NHS trusts at the lower end of the spend range would be performing a magic trick if they were pulling that off.
In addition, according to the campaign, 93% of NHS trusts do not carry out any traceability checks on their food. We know that, despite what I said earlier about British standards within food—the British buying standards and so on, of which the Government are a keen proponent—the standards do not apply to hospitals and NHS trusts. Hospital food does not have to meet British farm-assured standards, for example, that are signalled by the Red Tractor logo that everyone knows and in which many trust. That is a practical illustration of the job of work that has to be done. I am focusing on food in this debate, but we could go right across the spectrum—many producer organisations are SMEs. SMEs are where the bulk of our employment, innovation and entrepreneurship is, and they need a fair opportunity to get into procurement.
Often, the argument has been that we cannot specify British products—or products from Cornwall, Devon, Wales or wherever—because we have to play by the EU and World Trade Organisation rules, but a lot of Welsh Government work over a number of years has shown clearly that that argument is unjustified.
Excellent work is being done by not only the Welsh Government but leading-edge people in Bangor university. Dermot Cahill leads on a procurement project at Bangor, which considers the legality of the issues and the technical implementation of more innovative approaches. He will point clearly to the fact that EU law is far more flexible than it is often given credit for. Something like 80% of procurement contracts fall outside EU legislation anyway, as far as their size and shape is concerned, so the excuse that we are bound by EU regulations when tendering contracts does not seem to apply to eight out of 10 of those contracts.
The Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 is often held up as a reason why we have difficulty in applying local and regional procurement, particularly with SMEs, but although neither the Act nor EU law is pertinent here—perhaps the Minister can confirm that—the latter is often directly blamed.
The McClelland review in Wales produced a groundbreaking report. It found, on the basis of the best available legal advice and technical interpretations, that there was no evidence that EU law obligations were inhibiting procurement reform. We must remember, of course, that EU law itself promotes transparency, and that is something that is lacking at the moment. I do not say that to criticise the Government but to highlight the point that we have come to: despite everything I have just said, all of which is legally grounded within the McClelland report and the work of legal experts in academia in Wales and elsewhere, the UK is the highest user, at 55%, of the restricted procedure.
We know from experience that many other EU countries use an open procedure, which makes procurement opportunities far more visible to SMEs and allows them much more participation within tendering competitions and bids.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend feel, as I do, that the McClelland report, which has also been used in Scotland, shone a light on procurement practices that were very much set in the past and brought procurement up to date sooner rather than later?
Huw Irranca-Davies
I agree with my hon. Friend. We seem to have a legacy of mythology about why we cannot do things with procurement for SMEs, and those myths are used as the excuse not to do anything.
We first need to shatter some of the myths, and then say to those who work in procurement departments, “There is no excuse. We will encourage, support, offer guidance and put in place, when necessary, light-touch regulatory approaches, but you need to get on and design procurement contracts in a way that will encourage the highest level of competition—not simply between four or five big companies—and put the information out there that there is a competition going on.”
Far too often, procurement contracts are simply not well publicised and promoted, so it is no surprise that local food producers, haulage companies, building contractors and so on have no idea that procurement is going on. How will they get the business if there is no proper promotion?
My hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) is absolutely right. Through the McClelland report and its application in different devolved jurisdictions, we are seeing a different way forward. First, we need absolutely to shatter the mythology, and then to say, “Let’s all work together to devise a way in which we can open the market up”. By so doing, we are not creating unfair competition; we are increasing competition. We are not levelling the field to promote just local farmers or food producers; we are saying, “You should be aware of the tendering processes coming up in your local school, the fire service and so on, and we will design the contracts in a way that allows you to go for them, just as anyone else can.” We first need to open the door, to allow them to do just that.
I do not claim to be an expert in the field, but strong consensus is now building in the devolved Administrations and elsewhere about the way forward. Some of that relates to inadequate feedback, or its complete absence, from public procurers to those who want to bid. SMEs might bid for something and not be successful, and that is the end of it—they are not told where they have gone wrong, what their weaknesses are and how they might improve.
It is no surprise, given the cost and resource intensity of putting some bids together, that many SMEs say, “Well, that was a waste of our time. We don’t know where we went wrong. We aren’t going to do that again.” Big corporations, whether in the food sector or elsewhere, have units and departments specifically to do procurement and they can take off the shelf the computer model of their recent bids and put in a lot of effort. An SME might be a local haulage company with 20 people working for it, of which one, in addition to their other jobs, is told, “Have a try for this one. We’ve finally heard about a contract coming up, so have a go for it.” However, they hear nothing back, so they receive no guidance. That is simply wrong.
Many tender documents for procurement are inadequate: some are too large or too extensive, to the point that it is no wonder that SMEs do not apply—they identify that the profit margin could be the same as the cost of devising the bid. Why would they bother to go for it?
The issue is often to do with the fact that some of the bonds or liabilities required are absolutely beyond the reach of SMEs. It is fair enough if there is a reason for having large financial guarantees, but some contracts are relatively small and the procurement could easily be intelligently devised so that hurdles—liabilities and bonds—were far lower. That would encourage more SMEs to apply. It is not rocket science, but it does require procurement officers and departments at all levels—central Government, local government and all agencies—to have the necessary will and capabilities, which I shall touch on in a moment.
Inappropriate use of frameworks can amount to market exclusion. Frameworks—long-enduring ones with four-year-long contract applications, for instance—are sometimes there for a good purpose, but once they are won the process is over. Long frameworks are normally linked to large, onerous contract documents of immense detail and complexity, and they are sometimes not the right way forward, particularly if we want to encourage more SMEs to take part in the bidding process.
There is a flip side: the more we go for frameworks, the more we are likely to minimise the number of those wanting to tender and possibly to encourage cartel operation. If there are only four, five or six large players in any particular sector that can bid through a framework document over several years, with all the complexity involved, that is likely to lead to their taking the opportunity for cartel behaviour. I have to stress that I will not, under parliamentary privilege, lay any direct accusations before the House. [Interruption.] Not today.
How do we get through some of these things? I will use the example of the Welsh Government. There are good local examples of local authorities, such as Camden and others, doing really innovative work on procurement by applying ideas about increasing transparency and extending the offer to more SMEs, but the example of the Welsh Government is instructive and, as a Welsh MP, I know it well. I am not saying that the Minister must do what the Welsh Government say and follow their example—although sometimes that is not a bad thing—but simply that they are carving out a method that is in its early days, but is legally and technically sound and already seems to be having significant effects in opening the market to SMEs in procurement at all levels in Wales.
In the Welsh Government’s policy statement on procurement in December, based on the McClelland review, they set out the principles against which the Welsh public sector—including the NHS, education, fire and rescue, local authorities and any bodies sponsored by the Welsh Government—should carry out procurement. It was made in recognition of the fact that the value of Welsh public sector procurement is approximately £4.3 billion a year, which is almost a third of the overall Welsh public sector budget. We can see what an impact it would have locally and regionally if we could encourage SMEs to take part, with a multiplier effect not only through the supply chain, but in the wider communities where the money goes.
Jane Hutt, the Minister responsible, said in the policy statement:
“We must use innovative, evidence based, approaches to procurement to support the design and delivery of efficient and effective public services”—
yes, let us make them efficient and effective, with value for money, and so on—
“and to optimise the added value that is delivered to the economy and communities of Wales.”
Why have we argued that we cannot say those things about procurement, when the Welsh Minister, with the support of the Counsel General for Wales in the Welsh Government, can make such a statement? That statement can be followed through in procurement practices at all levels, and we need not hide from it. We must be open, transparent and competitive with anybody who wants to bid in such processes, but we can gear our policies towards supporting our own communities.
On added value, the Minister said that the Welsh Government
“will utilise public procurement creatively as a strategic tool to deliver economic benefit to the people and communities of Wales through employment, training and supply-chain opportunities.”
That will be part and parcel of the procurement approach and design. As Jane Hutt said, it supports other strategies, such as tackling poverty in communities and economic regeneration.
On the back of the exhaustive work done by the Welsh Government, the statement makes it clear that not only are the approaches legally sound, but they are tried and tested, and proven to work. In the December policy statement, Jane Hutt said:
“There are no reasons or excuses why all organisations cannot fully adopt them and there must be no delay in so doing.”
Let me explain the principles of the Welsh public procurement policy that she is asking organisations to adopt. The first principle is strategic:
“Procurement should be recognised and managed as a strategic corporate function that organises and understands expenditure; influencing early planning and service design and involved in decision making to support delivery of overarching objectives.”
That will be set out as the strategy.
The next is professionally resourced procurement, which is that
“procurement expenditure should be subject to an appropriate level of professional involvement and influence”.
That relates to one of the big criticisms of procurement, which is absolutely true. Accountancy and many other disciplines are careers that people aim to go into and design themselves for: they want to do the levels of continuing professional development and to pick up chartered institute qualifications. There are good procurement officers, but all too often people fall into procurement inadvertently and get minimal resources to do it.
The issue of minimal resources is fascinating because, as the Minister will know, good analysis has been done of procurement departments by looking at the correlation between the number of people dedicated to procurement in a local authority, fire services and so on and the number of SMEs that are successful in bidding. There is a direct correlation between the number of people—not only the number, but their expertise—working on procurement in a local authority, a fire service or the NHS and the degree of success in getting bids to SMEs. Why? Because those people take more time and more care for detail intelligently to design procurement contracts so that they are suitable for SMEs to bid for, so that they are not onerous and do not include huge barriers of complexity, finance and bureaucracy, and so that the pre-qualifying operation does not look like a tender bid.
On professionally resourced procurement, the policy statement continues that it should adopt
“the initial benchmark of a minimum of one procurement professional per £10m of expenditure.”
The Welsh Government have actually set it down and said that because there is a direct correlation, they demand of all their organisations that they move towards adequate resourcing, because they know that it benefits SMEs.
On the economic, social and environmental impact, the Welsh Government will use sustainable risk assessment and take account of the long-term impact on the combination of benefits of sustainability and community. If I turn to community benefits, they specifically say that
“delivery of added value through Community Benefits policy must be an integral consideration in procurement.”
On open accessible competition, the Welsh Government say:
“Public bodies should adopt risk based proportionate approaches to procurement”.
That is the thrust of what I am saying today. We have got into a dilemma with large, off the shelf risk averse procurement contracts: either very few people are doing them or people are specifically rewarded for driving down costs on what they were awarded last year, instead of being rewarded for the wider social and community benefits that also flow from procurement bids. We are allowed to reward on that basis, so why are we not doing it more? We need open accessible competition and
“risk-based proportionate approaches to procurement to ensure that contract opportunities are open to all and smaller local suppliers.”
On a simplified standard process, the Welsh Government say:
“Procurement processes should be open and transparent and based on standard approaches and use of common systems that appropriately minimise complexity, costs, timescales and requirements for suppliers.”
One thing that is specifically pushed is e-procurement. Rather than submitting 20 versions of highly complex, onerous, expensive documentation that has to go to different people for consideration, it is a lot easier for SMEs to do it in a simplified way, by e-procurement. The Welsh Government are pushing hard on that and will expect their agencies, providers and local authorities to move towards it at a rate of knots.
The Welsh Government talk about collaboration among SMEs, so that SMEs can come together locally and bid, and advise them how to do it. There are so many ways in which we can take these things forward, including the supplier qualification information database—SQuID—innovation. I will not go on and on.
The essence of my argument is that we can no longer hide behind the idea that because of EU rules or World Trade Organisation rules, we should not be devising intelligently appropriate procurement bid documentation that works for SMEs. I say that unashamedly because I am all in favour of open and transparent competition for anybody who wants to bid into the system, but the way we have traditionally done it has favoured very few small players. There is a real issue of investment, both financially and in guidance on the expertise of procurement departments. We should force the pace of change with local authorities, the NHS, fire services and Government agencies to go down that line to ensure that we deliver the maximum benefit for our local and regional SMEs.
What we are trying to do is level the playing field. It frustrates me, because I am tired of employers coming to me and saying, “Why is it that I always end up just picking up the crumbs from larger contracts? Even though I am a pretty reasonably sized medium-sized firm, I have not got the expertise or the time to bid for some of these massive contracts. The only ones bidding are the likes of Laing O’Rourke and Carillion. Why do I have to be a subcontractor for them?” Things are starting to change in Wales, and it is happening on a good sound legal basis. I am interested to hear what the UK Government are doing and what they are learning from Scotland and Wales and from places such as Camden local authority in London so that they can do more and do it more quickly. There is a way forward. Let us stop making excuses and drive ahead for the social, economic and community benefits of our own areas and of UK plc.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
It is a pleasure, Mr Hollobone, to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) on securing this very important debate. He spoke with great passion and I agree with many of the points that he made.
I ran a very small business for many years and know how hard it is to procure contracts with public sector organisations. When dealing with private sector businesses, I used to find that the public sector had three questions. “Can you supply the goods? What is the price? Is the quality of the product good enough?” Indeed if any of us were buying something for ourselves, whether a three-piece suite or a new carpet, those would be the three questions we would ask. However, I understand that when considering public sector procurement, life is not quite as simplistic as that; there are other significant issues to be addressed. Moreover, as a public body dealing with public money, there are certain other considerations that should be taken into account. Ostensibly, though, they should be looking for the same thing: a good reliable service or product that is properly produced at a competitive price and has a robust after-sales back-up service.
Let us stand up for the public sector. Small businesses derive one advantage from dealing with a public sector organisation—as I can vouch from experience—and that is security of payment. I have lost count of the number of times over the 25 years that I was in business when private customers delayed payment, were slow in payment or, even worse, went into liquidation or receivership owing my business money. Sometimes they owed me very small amounts. Thankfully, it was only on a few occasions that I was owed large amounts. At this point I could veer off into the issue of phoenix companies, but I am sure that you, Mr Hollobone, would soon call me to heel.
We are talking about SMEs, which can employ 100 employees, but I also want to bat for the micro-businesses with five or six employees. When a public sector body sends an inquiry to a small business, that SME knows that its money will be safe, which is important. My late father used to say, “It is not sold until it is paid for, son.” An order from a local authority was almost as good as getting cash in the bank. When the public body comes knocking, it should be a cause for hope and perhaps even celebration for a small business; they have an inquiry from a responsible public authority that they know they will be paid for and from which they can hopefully make a reasonable profit. However, in reality, for the people I have spoken to, that is not the case. I know of businesses that have actually ignored public sector inquiries on the basis that they are not worth the effort the business has to put in to get the work. I understand the amount of rigour that has to be undergone for some huge infrastructure contract, but let us be honest, a company the size of Laing O’Rourke has the capacity and resources to deal with all that stuff. I am talking about the SMEs that do not have such resources.
From my experience, when a small company gets an inquiry from a public sector body, it comes bound up in a lot of bureaucratic red tape. The small business owner, which is what I was, looks at it and considers what they have to do even to put a price in. When they work that out and look at the value of the contract, they find that by the time they have fulfilled all the bureaucratic criteria, the profit is so small that it is not worth doing. Some people might say, “So what? There are plenty of other companies that will do it.” That is not the point. The big companies might do it, and the hon. Gentleman made some good points in that regard, but is it necessarily achieving the best result for the taxpayer? I do not believe that it is. Although I do not want to alienate the large companies in my constituency, I have to say that many small and micro-businesses run lean and tight ships.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I have been listening carefully to the debate, although I arrived late, for which I apologise. One point of great relevance is about missed opportunities. A large number of small businesses have quite useful inventions and new technologies that do not always see the light of day. They apply to the national health service or to some other large public sector organisation and the simple process of getting them on to the table for negotiation is impossible. Let us think too of the lost opportunities in new inventions and new engineering ideas.
Andrew Bingham
My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I will come to something along those lines in a moment.
As I was saying, many small and micro-businesses run tight ships—they are hyper-efficient. Consequently, they can offer products and services at much reduced prices, and every bit equal in quality. However, all the bureaucratic muddle and red tape is not only depriving small businesses of the opportunity to supply but means that public sector bodies are paying more money for the services they procure. The process is costing public sector bodies more twice over. First, someone in the public body must administer all the paperwork, with all the forms having to be read, checked and all the rest of it, so that creates a higher cost for procurement. Secondly, because the public sector bodies are ruling out—shall we say?—more competitive companies by their system, they are also paying more for the products they procure. In many respects, the public sector is paying more for goods; I hate to use the phrase, “paying through the nose”, but it is paying a premium because of its own processes.
About 18 months ago, I held a small business event in my constituency to help my local small enterprises deal with local authorities and other big public bodies, to try to break down some of the bureaucratic barriers that the public sector bodies put in their way; to be honest, sometimes they do so unwittingly. In total, 85 local companies came along to that event, and they all came with a very similar tale. They all mentioned the dreaded pre-qualification questionnaire, or PQQ, which seems to be the bane of every small business person’s life. As the hon. Member for Ogmore said, public sector bodies seem to have a system whereby they say, “This is the procurement package we use, whether the contract is worth billions, millions, thousands or tens of pounds.” It just seems to be the same process and it seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
In discussing the PQQs, I will change the names, because I want to protect both the innocent and the guilty. I have one PQQ here, which is 64 pages long. It was given to me by a local small supplier. I will not say what the company does, because that would give a clue, but we will work on the theory that it supplies wallpaper, because that fits. Obviously, I do not want to disclose the company owner’s details, because it is not fair on him. He tendered for a fairly modest contract with a public sector organisation, which will also remain nameless. He sent me a PQQ that is 20 pages long and asks for information such as cash-flow forecasts. It also asks for a bank letter outlining the company’s current cash and credit position. I am sure that the bank would supply that information, but from my experience of dealing with banks I would say that it will probably charge him.
Looking at the level of detail of the contract, I see that there is an extra cost. It does not matter about all the paperwork and all the rest of it; the company owner has got a bill from his bank. The public sector body wants details of his company’s equal opportunities policy, its health and safety policy and it even asks him to
“describe your organisation’s current workforce development and training programme”.
The company is a micro-business that employs three or four people, supplying goods—as I say, we will go with wallpaper—and it has to supply all that information. I read the form with incredulity; I have even torn the page off, so that the cameras in Westminster Hall cannot pick up who sent it to the company owner. I could go on at great length, and given that we have the time I could actually read the whole of a 64-page PQQ I have, because I could get it all in before the debate finishes. In fact, I was thinking that there are people who collect different things, and we should have a name for people who collect PQQs, because I could be one of them.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Miss Chloe Smith)
I hope that my hon. Friend will excuse me for quickly intervening. I am sure that he is right to want to protect those involved, but anyone watching this debate and regretting that they cannot pick up the details on camera might like—if they know the details—to go to the Mystery Shopper page on the Cabinet Office website, which I will discuss in my response to the debate, and before the end of the debate we can “shop in” some bad practice.
Andrew Bingham
Perhaps so, but I have promised not to give out any names and with the greatest of respect to the Minister she does not vote for me and those people do, so I do not want to upset the applecart from that point of view.
As I say, the PQQ that I referred to is just 20 pages long; there are some that are much longer. I have seen some that are 64 pages, and more. If someone was procuring, for example, High Speed 2, I could understand that process, but for buying some wallpaper it is absolutely ridiculous. I could give the House numerous examples from my own experience. I remember tendering to supply power tools to a local authority. I lost the contract and I am not bitter about it because it was 20 years ago—well, I am not very bitter about it. I lost it by a very small amount of money. However, what was not factored in was the fact that the local authority I was tendering to, which was very close to my premises, wanted an option to pick up and take away tools. I lost the contract, but I lost it to a supplier 70 miles away. Because my headline price was a little higher than they had quoted, I did not get the contract, but I thought, “Well, how much is it going to cost for the vans for the authority to go to and fro 70 miles to pick up odd bits and bobs for the next two years?” It was then that I started to see the difficulties and—shall we say?—shortcomings in dealing with local authorities.
Not many years before I was elected, we had a campaign in Glossop in my constituency to restore some park gates, which were a big thing in Glossop. I instigated the campaign, I raised the money, I put in for the planning permission and I managed to get a local company to make the gates. The local authority at the time put up what I think it called an “interpretation board”. The chap putting it up said to me, “How much did the gates cost?” I told him and he said, “Crikey. The interpretation board cost more than that.” That made me think, “Hang on a minute, who’s buying smart here?”, and I think that “buying smart” is the phrase we should use.
From my experience, I do not think that the public sector does “buy smart”. I think that the Government are trying to get to grips with the problem and they are doing some good things, but from what I see across a wide range of public sector bodies there seems to be too much focus on the process and not on the outcome. As a former small business man myself, that drives me mad. The process is absolutely ridiculous: it costs the authority more to administer; it costs the suppliers more to fill in all the paperwork; and it is just a form-filling culture. That culture does not exist in the private sector—small businesses do not send forms round, tick them and all the rest of it.
Somehow we have to drive that practice out of the public sector. I know that we cannot get rid of all of it but we really need to clamp down on it, because our small businesses, as I have often said, are the engine room of the country, employing a huge percentage of our work force, and we need to give them every chance to supply big public sector organisations for all their different contracts, be they for pens and paper clips or for roads and railways. We need to give our small businesses a fair chance, because they will put people in employment, and all the community benefits will keep spinning through our local communities.
What public procurement should be about is buying the right goods or services at the right price and the right time, and getting the best value for money for the taxpayer. The evidence I have seen is that there is still a long, long way to go with public sector organisations to make that happen.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
It is indeed a pleasure, Mr Hollobone, to serve under your chairmanship today.
I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) on securing this very important debate. He spoke on this subject with passion, enthusiasm and knowledge. I could not agree more with what he said, to the point that I fear I may just repeat his speech with a Scottish accent. Without doubt, the importance of small and medium-sized enterprises across the UK cannot be overstated. SMEs are the backbone of the British economy and we need to ensure that both central Government and local government do everything they can to help them through the procurement tendering process to secure contracts.
SMEs employ more than 14 million people and have a combined turnover of £1,500 billion, which accounts for some 47% of private sector employment and about 34% of turnover. Importantly for a local economy, 83p of every £1 spent with a local business will go back into that local economy.
Those are just some of the statistics about SMEs. They are vital to the economic well-being of Britain and vital to employment opportunities. They are the driving force of our economy and they deserve their fair share of public sector procurement. Small businesses are struggling to survive in these challenging economic times, so it is essential that they have every opportunity to win Government contracts or to become part of the supply chain to local and national Government.
Public procurement spend is significant even in these challenging times. Public sector bodies, including central Government, the armed forces and the NHS, spend around £220 billion a year on goods and services—everything from stationery and office furniture to medical equipment and catering services. Despite that, however, public procurement is an underused tool when it comes to keeping trade local. Nearly three quarters of SMEs rarely or never bid for government work, and more than three quarters of SMEs believe that there are barriers to awareness of government opportunities. Many say that lengthy and complex pre-qualification questionnaires disadvantage smaller businesses. The playing field has been stacked against SMEs trying to win public sector contracts. To many SMEs, public procurement seems to have been deliberately designed so that they do not succeed.
More than half of SMEs feel that the process of tendering for Government contracts requires more time and resources than their business can allow for. Some 50% of SMEs find it significantly more difficult to deliver to Government agencies than to the private sector, mainly because of the additional formalities required by public sector clients. SMEs say over and over again that the bureaucracy needs to be simplified to help them bid for public sector contracts and especially low-value contracts.
The majority of SMEs are relatively unaware of where to look for opportunities, and they believe it is too time-consuming to try to find out about them. In addition, they do not bid, because they feel they are unable to compete with larger suppliers. One in five SMEs believes it is unsuccessful in a bid because it is unable to offer better value for money than other suppliers.
One member of the Federation of Small Businesses said:
“Local authorities are the bureaucratic mind at work, busily inventing disproportionately complicated procedures.”
Does that not sound familiar?
Could the Minister look at the following points—she will be glad to hear that the list is not overly lengthy—to improve SMEs’ prospects of securing Government contracts? First, could access to public contracts and pre-qualification questionnaires not be simplified? Secondly, could there not be education seminars on how to tender for contracts, especially through e-procurement? Thirdly, there could be much better access to information about public sector procurement opportunities for SMEs. More needs to be done to improve channels of information, so that small businesses know what contracts are up for tender.
Government buyers need to develop business associations with local SMEs and to set up standard contracts of terms and conditions before inviting companies to tender for released contracts. That will, of course, entail a separation of duties, in that those who source would not be those who evaluate tenders and place contracts. There also needs to be a focus on building an integrated supply chain, in which there are no weak links, and on applying green procurement to keep that supply chain as short and as local as possible.
Where possible, e-procurement should be used to enable SMEs quickly and economically to bid for contracts. The Government also need to target and improve contract monitoring for performance if business associations are to continue and to be justified. In addition, the Government must prove best value by having multiple bids that are evaluated against clear contract weighting.
What of the spend of local authorities? The procurement spend of many councils is significant, averaging £185 million for each local authority. Nationally, that is billions of pounds per year. On the basis of the rather limited figures available, however, less than 50% of that spend goes to SMEs. A significant proportion of councils do not record the size or location of the businesses they spend with, and that should be rectified.
Cost savings are overwhelmingly the biggest driver of procurement policy, outweighing other factors, such as the quality of goods and services, and economic development. That is understandable, given the constraints on local government, but it is, none the less, regrettable, because cost should not always be the most significant factor in awarding a contract, and savings can also be made through quality.
If you will allow me, Mr Hollobone, I will describe what has been taking shape in Scotland over the past couple of years. There has been a total redesigning of the procurement process, which has embraced private, cutting-edge procurement practices to bring about the maximum savings. I hope that will banish the days of off-the-shelf, catalogue procurement.
Some years ago, Scotland Excel was developed, bringing together the combined spend of the 32 local authorities in Scotland. More to the point, it updated and standardised procurement practices, which was necessary if local government was to deal with these challenging times and bring about the savings required in their spend. Many SMEs have been successful in gaining contracts through this collaborative buying consortium. Many other areas of the UK employ buying consortiums; they have had many successes, and they have many good practices they could and should share across the country.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
I apologise to the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) for being rather late for the debate. The hon. Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) is making an important point. About 75% of procurement in Scotland is sourced in Scotland, but only about 50% of procurement in Wales is sourced in Wales. What are the major lessons Wales could learn from Scotland?
Mr McKenzie
They are working jointly, and the McClelland report has been shared by both Administrations. As I said, it shone a light on procurement practices in local and national Government and updated them, bringing in many good, cutting-edge practices. It is recognised that if we devolve procurement to a local level, the supply chain can be improved and can be kept as short as possible. I should also mention the green procurement card, which is used across Europe to justify a local spend.
Can SMEs do anything to improve their situation? Yes, they can. They can prepare before bidding for contracts. They should know their strengths and highlight them in any bid. They can become aware of appropriate opportunities and select the right ones. They can engage with their clients, discussing their requirements if they are unsure about them.
SMEs can also use their clients’ chosen method to deal with those clients. If that is online, they should learn how to load to the bid portal and about what limitations the portal has in terms of the size of the tender document and the time it takes to load. SMEs should not miss a bid by running over the deadline because their data was slow to upload.
SMEs should also fully meet their clients’ needs and know what matters most in their hierarchy of weighting. Finally, they should combine expertise with innovation, and explain themselves clearly if any new practices or processes are involved on their side of the supply chain.
We should always remember that awarding to local SMEs has many rewards: it builds local businesses, with many becoming subcontractors to the initial contract winner; it creates local employment opportunities and secures employment locally; and moneys spent locally tend to circulate locally, supporting other businesses and jobs. To conclude, SMEs are important, and they will always be important to our economy.
Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) on securing the debate. My only sadness is that a debate of such magnitude and gravitas does not have a much wider audience and that more Members could not be here. However, it is good to see that the Welsh are in a majority today, with four Members here, along with another Member from the Celtic fringe. We will look closely at what the Minister has to say.
Chris Evans
There is the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) behind the Minister. He is a sleeper; we sent him on reconnaissance to Pudsey. Come back to Wrexham!
When we talk about the role of businesses in the economy, we are often talking about small and medium-sized enterprises. Let us not forget that half of private sector turnover is accounted for by SMEs. In Wales, the public sector spends approximately £4.3 billion per annum through procurement, which accounts for more than a third of the overall Welsh public sector budget. That includes everything from stationery, paper clips and office furniture to medical equipment. In my constituency, up in Croespenmaen, we have Abingdon Flooring, which supplies furnishings for MOD properties.
What is more, the public sector is the largest user of services and goods from the private and voluntary sectors in Wales. The scale of public sector procurement in Wales and across Britain means that it is the biggest driver of economic growth and the biggest lever the Government can use. No one, on either side of the House, can fail to recognise the importance of public sector procurement.
I remember going to a seminar with Lord Sugar, when he talked about green industry. He said that is okay having wind farms, but they need steel: where are we procuring that? My frustration about procurement is that everyone knows its importance; but, for all the companies that come to me and tell me that they are trying to procure for something, there are hoops to jump through. It gets to the point where they are frustrated and give up on the process.
I read recently that the Prime Minister’s enterprise adviser David Young said he was not convinced that the value of SMEs was being fully exploited across the public sector. It worries me that it seems from a Cabinet Office report that the target of 25% of all government contracts has been quietly dropped. Indeed, from some statements from the civil service it seems that the 25% target is not a target but an aspiration. I agree with the Government that that target could be a catalyst to achieve change in the economy; but that must be driven from Whitehall, and be more than an aspiration. It must be measurable, constant and universally accepted. Also, which businesses does it apply to? Is it for larger businesses or for small and medium-sized business? Are micro-businesses included as well? I do not believe there is anyone who does not see SMEs as job creators. The SMEs of today will be the major companies of the future.
What the debate comes down to essentially is this: we will cut the welfare bill and bring down the deficit only through people in jobs paying taxes. The only way we shall achieve that is by encouraging SMEs and other businesses to have the confidence to create jobs.
Huw Irranca-Davies
My hon. Friend makes a valid point about the strategic importance to SMEs of procurement. Does he agree that there are practical things we can work through? Will he pay tribute to Bangor university, which is working with SMEs and the Welsh Government to, for example, reduce 50-page contract tendering documents to as few as 10 pages? We can see that those things can be done, and will create jobs through SMEs.
Chris Evans
I agree, and there was a discussion about that this morning in another place.
From my constituency experience of micro-businesses, such as painters and decorators, they make their money from painting council houses, school buildings and hospitals; but they must jump through rings of fire to get through the procurement process. I pay tribute to the work that Bangor university and the Welsh Government are doing to reduce the paperwork that SMEs must go through. That paperwork turns them away from a vital source of income, because of the complexity of the system.
I was interested when my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore mentioned procurement examples in the food sector, and I want to touch on another example of best practice, which I am pleased to say comes from my constituency. It concerns the defence and security industry, which is a massive industry for us. We are lucky in Islwyn that we have General Dynamics UK, which moved there specifically because of a Ministry of Defence contract. It has access to markets and cutting-edge technology that can be used by small businesses. I am delighted that the EDGE UK facility is in Oakdale at the moment. It does an incredible amount of work with SMEs, helping them to get access to defence and security markets nationally and internationally. Not only that, but its modus operandi protects the intellectual property of the SME and ensures buy-in from all sides, offering clear benefits to both parties. If the Minister wants to see an example of innovation in the procurement process, she has an open invitation to come to Islwyn and to Oakdale. I shall be happy to show her round; I think she will find it is a beautiful constituency.
Anyone who has dealt with SMEs will say how important it is for them to work with larger companies, retain their intellectual property and win new business in the market. EDGE UK is appreciated by the customers of General Dynamics UK, including the Ministry of Defence, as it helps those with a niche capability from SMEs who usually cannot get access to the customer. Through EDGE UK General Dynamics works with an average of 50 SMEs a year, constantly seeking out and reviewing innovative developments. I know from speaking with people from General Dynamics that it is always keen to attend business events, to expand awareness of EDGE UK through the SME community, and to invite new SMEs to talk about ways they can engage with a company through EDGE UK. I remind all those with small businesses, if any of them are watching the debate—hopefully on television on a Sunday morning—that they have an open invitation to get involved with EDGE UK, and to get access to its innovation and capability. It is fantastic.
Not every SME can work with General Dynamics, of course. Products may need maturing. EDGE UK provides support to such SMEs, to help them identify avenues for funding that will help them develop their technologies. Those include, for example, the Centre for Defence Enterprise, the Technology Strategy Board, and the various business funding streams available from the Welsh Government. We cannot talk about SMEs and procurement in the public sector without looking at examples such as EDGE UK and seeing what we can learn and apply. For every General Dynamics success story and every EDGE UK there is someone in Wales, or somewhere in Britain—perhaps a micro-business employing five people, such as a painter and decorator—who is desperate to get hold of a contract: to paint a council house or school building. That is because those are what I like to term Bank of England contracts—they will not fall apart under someone’s feet, and they will not walk away: the business owner knows they will get the money at the end of the day. When there are businesses that pay their bills late, access to contracts of that kind is vital.
I find it frustrating that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore mentioned in an intervention, people have to wade through 50 pages of tendering documents. The time and money that goes into public contracts makes it harder and harder for small and micro-businesses to tender for them. The process costs money that is precious to them, and they become caught in a vicious cycle. They have no money for the tender, but they need to tender to make money. The fact that the Government are willing to promote the tendering process, but allow companies to get stuck in a system where they cannot get hold of contracts, is a bit of a hare-brained scheme. On a recent visit to Axiom Manufacturing Services, a successful manufacturer in my constituency, the frustration of the situation was pointed out to me. First, no help is provided with filling in the contracts: the business does not know what is being looked for in the tender. Secondly, feedback is rarely given to those who are unsuccessful, so it is not possible to move on and improve processes the next time.
To return to the 25% aspiration, let me say that now is the time for a coherent Government plan. Since I entered the House I have often heard the accusation that all the Opposition do is oppose everything, but I want to set out concrete plans, and I hope the Minister will listen to five points. First, there should be agreement by Government that procurement will be used as an engine of economic growth. I do not mean central Government but all levels of government, including councils and the NHS. Secondly, a border line should be established and we need to set a target in stone. If 25% is too high, and is just an aspiration, we need to bring the target down; but we need to begin achieving targets, and they need to be measurable.
Thirdly—and I must return to the example of General Dynamics UK and EDGE UK for this—every company with more than a certain number of employees, in receipt of a Government contract, needs to produce a training plan and an apprenticeship scheme, to enable young people to get on the ladder, so that skills and training will improve. That cannot be put in place at zero cost.
Fourthly, we should take a leaf from the book of General Dynamics UK and use procurement to encourage innovation, allowing bidders to come up with new, fresh ideas. That should be in the tendering process. My fifth point relates to what I said before about Axiom. There is a need for help from public bodies, for contracts to be designed in a way that allows SMEs to compete. We need standard contracts across the board. We also need a helpline or someone in Government, in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills; at Axiom I discussed bringing troubleshooters in. There is a need for a crack team that can be called free and told, “I need help to fill this contract in.” The Government could send it on.
Those would be innovative processes. However, we must remember that, without Government will, a limited number of suppliers will still reinforce their market share, stifle competition and keep prices high. Government will and action are needed, and I hope that we see that today.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) on securing this debate on an important issue that does not attract the attention it deserves. As my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) said, hon. Members from all parties are aware of the importance of this issue and it would have been fitting if more had attended this debate. However, important points have been made by hon. Members from both sides of the House. My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn said that there was a Celtic emphasis to the contributions. This is a cross-party, national issue.
Contributions, particularly from my hon. Friends the Members for Islwyn and for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie), and the passionate opening remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore, emphasised the importance of procurement for small and medium-sized enterprises and their importance to our economy.
This has been a remarkably non-partisan debate and I hope that that will not change too much as I make some remarks on behalf of the official Opposition. If there is one thing that all hon. Members agree on, it is that small and medium-sized enterprises are the lifeblood of our economy and should be supported. They account for 99.9% of all private sector businesses in the UK, 59.1% of private sector employment and almost half of private sector turnover.
As has been said, given the economic challenges that we face, encouraging small and medium-sized enterprises must be a focal point for Government policy as we seek to find growth again. In short, they are critical to our economic recovery. Yet still the proportion of public spend on dynamic small and medium-sized enterprises is far too low. As the UK’s biggest single consumer, government must do more to support SMEs across the country.
In February 2011, the Prime Minister and the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, the right hon. Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), outlined Government procurement reforms at a conference for SME suppliers, where the famous pledge was made that
“25% of all government contracts”
should be
“awarded to small and medium-sized enterprises”.
Regrettably, that 25% target did not last long. It has been downgraded, rather like our credit rating, and is now merely an aspiration. Last month, the Prime Minister’s enterprise adviser, Lord Young, said that he was
“not convinced that the value of SMEs is being fully exploited across the whole public sector.”
I think that we can all agree with him.
I am sure that the Minister will tell us that procurement figures for SMEs are up. The Government do not have a particularly good record on statistics, but it is still depressing to hear the Minister for the Cabinet Office say that most Departments do not know their spend on SMEs and that therefore people “cannot trust the numbers”.
Mark Taylor, the former co-chair of a panel set up to advise the Minister for the Cabinet Office on SME procurement, has accused the Government of “recounting” their procurement SME figures. He said that Government contracts to SMEs were “drying up”, that things were “going backwards” and that SMEs were
“finding it more difficult to do business with Government.”
Huw Irranca-Davies
Perhaps a way forward is to replicate the Welsh Government’s approach. They are now asking all their local authorities, the NHS and any procurers to carry out regular procurement fitness checks, including monitoring how many contracts are going out to SMEs.
Chi Onwurah
My hon. Friend raises an excellent point that I hoped to make later. It is useful to see concrete examples of where that is being done successfully, but the measurement and understanding of procurement practices and, most importantly, what the outcomes are, particularly for SMEs, is a key way of improving the situation.
What is being done to measure SME procurement in Government? What is the Minister doing, specifically, to stop things going backwards? Will she confirm that only two Departments have increased SME procurement spend to any significant degree and that one of those—the Ministry of Justice—only achieved that by including providers of legal aid?
Will the Minister say what concrete action has been taken to increase the proportion of spending with SMEs? Fine words are all very well, but we want to know what is actually being done to address this issue, which everyone agrees is critical. Speeches and leaning on Departments can only go so far. We have all read reports of bloody battles going on between Departments and the Treasury over spending envelopes in the next Budget. There is a huge pressure on Departments to use their buying power to cut costs and, unfortunately, that tends to be through ever-larger contracts.
The Government have spoken many fine words of encouragement to social enterprises, without delivering. Most social enterprises are SMEs. The message that I get from social enterprises—I recently held workshops in Newcastle and London—is that often, how Government contracts are bundled makes it impossible for them to bid. That is, as we have heard, a general concern among SMEs. Will the Minister explain what specific actions have been taken, and what actions are planned, to unbundle as many contracts as possible, to level the playing field for smaller enterprises?
Support through direct procurement is not the only way to support SMEs. The previous Labour Government introduced the innovative small business research initiative programme to drive innovation through procurement. The SBRI allows small businesses to bid for contracts to provide innovative solutions to procurement problems, supporting innovation and small businesses at the same time.
We in the official Opposition had been calling for some time for the programme to be expanded, so we were glad when the expansion was agreed to by the Treasury. This is good news for innovative SMEs. However, a recent survey by the Federation of Small Businesses found that nearly 40% of small firms felt that they were being “sidelined” by the Government because of their persistent belief that bigger firms are better. What are the Government doing to address that?
I turn briefly to the Government’s Contracts Finder, which I am sure the Minister will address. The value of contracts published on the website each month is still very small compared with the £15 billion total value of Government procurement contracts that are outsourced each month. Does the Minister agree that more needs to be done to ensure that contracts are put on the Contracts Finder system? What is happening on that?
What are Ministers doing to ensure that local authorities are properly engaged with Contracts Finder? What work are they doing with councils to improve their procurement from SMEs? We have heard of a number of examples from local authorities across England and Wales that are being very innovative in that respect, and I would like the Minister to say whether she is studying what is happening in our local authorities.
There are a number of rivalries between cities in the north-east, particularly between Newcastle and Sunderland, but as we subsume them within a combined local authority, I am pleased to say that I can hold up Sunderland city council as an example of innovative and successful work in procurement.
Indeed, only last night, at the Federation of Small Businesses reception, Sunderland city council was praised for its intensive engagement with the FSB and local suppliers before implementing the Buy Sunderland First system for quotations below the tender threshold and the North East Procurement Organisation portal for all opportunities above the threshold. Consequently, spend with north-east businesses now accounts for more than 68% of all third-party spend by Sunderland city council. What other examples would the Minister like to hold up for us of ways in which local authorities are successfully engaging with small businesses?
I have asked a number of questions of the Minister. My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore has raised a number of important points, and my hon. Friends the Members for Islwyn and for Inverclyde have made a number of suggestions. I draw my remarks to a close by saying to the Minister that, although we have seen some small steps forward, the Government’s approach lacks the required urgency. Whether on procurement or bank lending, Ministers across Government are failing SMEs.
Responding to a recent National Audit Office report on improving Government procurement, the head of the CBI said:
“Two and a half years after the Government committed to centralising public procurement, individual departments are still too often doing their own thing. We need to see strong leadership from the Cabinet Office to drive a culture shift across…Whitehall”.
Such complacency is all too common among Ministers. The CBI survey report recently stated:
“Across the board the rate of reform requires more urgency. The lack of progress on turning sound policy into actual change is not only damaging to government and costly to the taxpayer, but it also stunts growth.”
Will the Minister now take action to ensure that permanent secretaries prioritise and buy into that? Will they visibly start to split major contracts into smaller chunks? Will they take steps to record the success or failure of those policies?
Successfully changing the mindset on procurement so that we use and support our SMEs more effectively is an issue that unites the whole House, so will we see decisive Government action so that our ambitions can be realised?
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Miss Chloe Smith)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) for initiating this debate on such an important subject and for setting us off so passionately. As has been echoing around the Chamber this afternoon, we share a passion for the same thing: seeing excellent procurement that serves the customer—in this case, the taxpayer—and promotes growth. I am confident that every Member here supports those aims and that my remarks will outline the action merited by that.
From the outset, the Government have fully recognised the vital role that SMEs play in helping us achieve the best possible value for money—in some cases for reasons of cost and in others for reasons of innovation, a theme that has also rightly reverberated around the Chamber—when we buy goods and services for the citizen, such as school, hospital or prison meals, wallpaper or any other goods or services.
In the minutes remaining, I will take the hon. Gentleman’s invitation to shatter some myths. Let us do that together this afternoon, because he is absolutely right in laying down his support for the theme and in his desire to see increased awareness of what is available for SMEs, of the ways in which they can grab it and of the ways in which we can hold procurers to account.
I will start by addressing the goal that, by the end of this Parliament, 25% of direct and indirect Government procurement by value should go to SMEs. Although I want to move on to some content that I know will be of great help to every Member when talking to their constituents, I first need to make an overtly political point. I am sad to say that we had to take the bold step of setting a 25% aspiration because before that, under the previous Government, no effort was made to measure such things. The lecture I have just received from the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman is more than a little rich in that context. Even a member of the previous Government has had the dignity to look ahead and say what we need to do better for SMEs, and I am afraid that I do not think the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman is hitting the same heights.
After a lot of hard work in 2010, we found out that SME procurement in 2009-10 amounted to 6.5% of all procurement, or £3.1 billion—a shamefully low figure given that 95% or more of private sector businesses in the UK are microfirms, or companies with fewer than 10 employees. We recognised that something had to be done to remove the barriers facing many companies when bidding for Government contracts, and we have gone a long way towards removing those barriers. I will work through a couple of points that will help Members to express that to their constituents, which is one important thing we can do to send the message outwards.
Over the past three years, we have increased accessibility and transparency, identified and addressed poor procurement practice and provided practical assistance to help SMEs. I will start with accessibility and transparency. We have made contracts smaller and broken them up under various headings. Some of the finest examples of that can be found in information and communications technology, where historically Governments have been subject to procurement disasters. We have instead deliberately gone out to approach SMEs for Government ICT needs and have had some good successes. We have also set up Contracts Finder to increase accessibility; it is a one-stop shop to enable suppliers to find procurement and subcontracting opportunities. They can also find tender documents and contracts online, all free of charge. I urge anyone listening to or reading this debate to look at that.
People will also find online and accessible pipelines of what the Government are looking to procure under a range of topics. All those kinds of thing help would-be suppliers to know what we are looking for. As I said in my opening remarks, we believe in procurement for growth, and we believe strongly that pipelines can help in that endeavour by explaining to industry what this very large customer, the Government, are looking for over time.
In the dynamic marketplace, companies can register without cost to provide quick quotes for low-value Government contracts below £100,000. That enables them to bid and compete at minimal cost alongside larger suppliers. I recognise the points made this afternoon about the cost of bidding. We are doing something about that. On the other side of the deal, what does that give customers—Departments and the taxpayers whom they represent? It gives us cost-effective access to pre-registered Government suppliers and allows bids to be issued and responded to electronically, which again makes the procurement process quicker and more effective.
On the theme of transparency, I also note that we have established a Crown representative for SMEs, which I know will be of great interest to the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), who wanted to know where SMEs could turn for help. There is a Crown representative in Government especially for the purpose of giving SMEs a voice at the table. That is vital, and we have done it. We have also set up an SME panel to provide a regular forum for SMEs to raise the issues that concern them most and hold our feet to the fire. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the SMEs on that panel do so. I have been there, and I have enjoyed meeting the panel very much.
Moving on to tackling poor procurement practice, we have heard a couple of good examples in this debate, particularly from my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham), who spoke about a wallpaper supplier in his constituency. I will start with that example. It is a great shame that he and his constituents felt the need for anonymity in that example. I understand entirely, but we would all like to live in a world where they did not receive bad service and did not feel the need to hide it for fear of reprisals.
We have introduced a mystery shopper service that will be familiar to anyone who has seen such a thing in supermarkets or reputable businesses throughout the private sector. It allows poor procurement service to be identified and acted on. If a supplier encounters poor procurement practice, such as the overly bureaucratic pre-qualification questionnaire in my hon. Friend’s example, or unreasonable selection criteria, as in other examples, they can refer it anonymously to the mystery shopper service, so that we can investigate it on their behalf.
I encourage and urge all constituency Members to push that information out to SMEs or anybody bidding in their constituency for Government work. It is the only way that one by one, piece by piece, we can tackle that kind of bad practice. It allows us to identify the broader themes that we can perhaps tackle more systematically, but it also allows us to put right individual cases where something has gone wrong.
Jonathan Edwards
Based on what the Minister is saying, does she consider the move towards centralising legal aid contracts an example of bad procurement?
Miss Smith
I suspect that I do not have time to do that topic justice and that you would not wish me to go there, Mr Hollobone. However, if the hon. Gentleman thinks that it is bad practice, he or anybody else ought to enter it into the mystery shopper and see what comes out the other end. We regularly publish the outcomes of mystery shopper investigations on the gov.uk website, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will find it easy to use.
By 31 May this year, we had received 425 mystery shopper cases. Of those that we have closed, a great majority have had a positive outcome. Once again, I encourage all Members to ensure that their constituents are aware of it.
Huw Irranca-Davies
Briefly, and in case the Minister does not touch on these two issues, what are the UK Government doing in terms of the threshold for advertising on the web? The Welsh Government have moved to advertising any contract of more than £25,000 on the web. Also, what are the UK Government doing to reduce the insurance and turnover thresholds to break down more barriers for SMEs?
Miss Smith
On the first question, all central Government contracts of more than £10,000 must be advertised on Contracts Finder; I am sure that those who have their smartphones out will find it a helpful source of information. The second question brings me to a point that I shall make later. We need to leave some areas of professional competence for the contractors themselves. It may be under the headings that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. There are instances in which a particular contractor will need to find particular characteristics that suit their procurement.
I turn to a couple of other points that have been made. Hon. Members have asked for there to be ways of giving feedback to unsuccessful bidders. We have used the mystery shopper to provide that in some cases; I am interested in how we can encourage it as a far wider practice. I will also give an example of the move away from frameworks, another point made earlier. In some cases, it can be an instance of poor procurement practice when frameworks are used inappropriately. They can certainly be a blunt instrument. I point hon. Members to the example of the G-Cloud, a way that we are procuring for IT across Government that has done away with frameworks entirely. There are many more such examples.
PQQs, or pre-qualification questionnaires, are undoubtedly a burden to small and medium-sized businesses. To address that, we have eliminated their use in 15 of 17 Departments for all central Government procurements under the EU threshold of £100,000. The two Departments still using PQQs are doing so only for security reasons.
Miss Smith
I am terribly sorry, but I need to finish some points before I run out of time. For procurements that still require a PQQ, we have introduced a much simpler standard set of questions that reduces the burden on suppliers.
On late payment, we recognise that being paid promptly is vital to enabling SMEs to manage their cash flows. Again, we have addressed that by making Government a fair payment champion. We have a policy of paying 80% of undisputed invoices within five days and ensuring that prime contractors also pay suppliers in tier 2 within 30 days. We expect our suppliers to follow that example.
My hon. Friend the Member for High Peak briefly mentioned the fact that Government can end up paying through the nose for procurement. I make the point in passing that we are one of the best clients going. I think that the hon. Member for Islwyn said that, actually, we have some of the best credit available as a Government purchaser. We can take advantage of that and get results for the taxpayer, which is crucial because that is whom we are procuring for, as well as shaping the market. I suggest that fair payment is a way in which we can do that.
I turn to a couple of other points about assistance to SMEs. Hon. Members have spoken about the small business research initiative, under which we have provided more opportunities within Government for SMEs. To address a further point made by the hon. Member for Islwyn, we have also produced a series of “top tips” videos that help SMEs and voluntary organisations pitch for Government business. Again, he should get out his smartphone right now and find out how good those videos are.
On how the measures are giving results, I should say that direct spend with SMEs across Government has increased from the paltry 6.5% when we took office to 10% in 2011-12. We will shortly announce, two years on, the results of our efforts in that area. SMEs have also benefited from a further 6% in indirect spend through the supply chain in 2011-12, meaning that spend with SMEs across Government has increased steadily since 2010.
Looking ahead, we must keep up the pressure on Departments. The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) will be delighted to know that I am personally scrutinising plans from Departments to increase their spend with SMEs and sharing them with the Prime Minister throughout. We have appointed SME champions to do so at ministerial and official levels in all Departments.
Hon. Members will also be pleased to know that we are working closely with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to ensure that unified advice is available to SMEs. To conclude, we are aware of the recommendations in Lord Young’s work, and I want to do more to support growth with SMEs throughout the public sector.
Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)
All good things must come to an end. I thank all the hon. Members who took part in that most interesting and illuminating debate, and ask those who are not staying to leave quickly and quietly.
Prepayment Meters
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
I am pleased to be able to appear under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Hollobone.
The debate came about because, on Report, I tabled amendments to the Energy Bill on the Government’s new proposals to help consumers with their energy bills. Unfortunately, my amendments were not discussed due to lack of time, but there are serious issues relating to the new powers and to prepayment meters in particular.
Under what was new clause 13, powers would be taken to allow the regulator to require
“licence holders to change the domestic tariffs or other terms of domestic supply contracts so as to reduce the costs to their domestic customers for supplies of gas or electricity.”
However, what was then subsection (3)(e) provides
“for requiring a licence holder to change the domestic tariff or other supply contract terms on which it supplies gas or electricity to a domestic customer by—
(i) switching to a different domestic tariff or different supply contract terms, unless the customer objects, or
(ii) offering the customer, or inviting the customer to switch to, a different domestic tariff or different supply contract terms.”
My problem is with sub-paragraph (ii).
I fully appreciate that the Minister may argue that consumers should be given the maximum amount of choice and should be empowered to make their own decisions, but the plain fact of the matter is that, as we all know and as is remarked on in the regulatory impact assessment of the Bill, there is a huge amount of inertia among energy consumers, in particular those who remained with their former monopoly supplier after privatisation. If the provision in the Bill remains as it is, there is a real danger that companies might take the second option and make an offer to the consumer. We are then faced with the issue of what form that offer might take.
We already receive a huge amount of paper from our energy providers. As well as bills, we get special offers and offers to take on maintenance of domestic appliances, drains, pipes, electrics and whatever else. We also get invitations to take up different ways to pay our bills, especially if the providers have not yet signed us up to a direct debit; once we have direct debits, they make regular attempts to increase the amount we are paying by direct debit—amounts that sometimes bear no relation to how much energy we actually use. Now, too, we get annual and regular energy statements. That is all useful, but how many of our constituents really take the time to go through that mountain of information, and how many just put it in the recycling bin with all the other junk mail?
The first option, however, is straightforward: if consumers are on a contract or supply terms that are not the best, they can be automatically transferred to a better deal, unless they make the specific decision not to do so. That seems to have a better chance of fulfilling the Prime Minister’s promise to ensure that every customer is on the lowest tariff. Of course, the situation would have to be monitored, to ensure that the energy company is indeed offering the lowest tariff, but that can be addressed by Ofgem and to an extent by the provisions of subsection (5) of what was the new clause. I am interested to hear what Ministers have to say about that point.
My other concern and the main point of today’s debate is how that relates specifically to some of the poorest in our society who have to rely on prepayment meters. If someone is on a direct debit tariff, that may be fine, but if they are on a prepayment meter, for example, they will still be stuck on a higher tariff, since those tariffs are generally higher than the ones that would be available to someone who is paying by direct debit. If the Government are truly intent on ensuring that everyone has the lowest possible bill, they need to ensure that the requirement not only applies within the type of contract that the customers already have, but allows them to move to a cheaper type of contract.
There are particular problems with prepayment meters. It has always seemed to be slightly perverse that this is one of the few examples in which consumers end up paying much more by paying cash in advance.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this important matter before the House for consideration. I have been dealing with a number of constituents who have had similar problems with the tariffs for, for example, oil. Does he think that other options might be necessary, not only for oil but for gas, so that people can switch, whatever the fuel that provides their heating? If we do not enable that, fuel poverty will continue to grow.
Mr Weir
The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. I have often talked about oil, though it might be outwith the terms of today’s debate, but I take his point, which is very true.
The issue of prepayment meters is important. Citizens Advice Scotland issued a report on energy recently, showing that citizens advice bureaux had dealt with 7,400 people with 9,500 different energy issues in 2011-12; of those, 83% related to difficulties with paying or debt. The report stated that
“the cases highlighted by bureaux regarding difficulty paying are most commonly with regards to prepayment meters recouping an unaffordable amount for arrears every time the consumer tops up.”
The problem with prepayment meters is not only that the tariff tends to be higher—to be fair, things are better than they used to be, and many companies now fix at the standard tariff, although this is higher than the tariffs that can be achieved on, for example, direct debit—but that many, though not all, of those on prepayment meters are put on them because they have a debt, and part of that debt is recouped every time the consumer tops up the meter. The costs of installation can also be added to the debt, meaning that consumers are pushed further into debt.
Meters tend to be used when a consumer is already struggling. The perverse effect is that if people are already struggling to keep up with payments on the cheapest tariff, such as an online one paid by direct debit, should they fall into difficulties—perhaps they lose their job or become ill, or for any of a vast number of reasons—they end up being put on an even more expensive tariff, which simply deepens their difficulties.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on making a fine point. Does he agree that, with prepayment meters, we now have the grotesque example of people cutting themselves off by not paying beforehand, rather than waiting for the fuel companies to cut them off?
Mr Weir
The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point, and I shall come on to discuss that issue shortly.
The report from the Scottish CAB cites the case of a single parent with two children who loses £7 towards arrears every time she puts £10 in the meter, and the £3 left is entirely insufficient to heat her home. What chance has she of ever getting out of the cycle of debt, or even of keeping her home warm?
When the debate was announced, Barnardo’s got in touch with me and mentioned the problem, expressing its concerns that the Government’s plans to simplify the charging system will still allow fuel companies to charge higher prices for those who pay for their electricity and gas through prepayment meters rather than through direct debit. Barnardo’s quoted research showing that vulnerable households in or on the margins of poverty are forced to pay through their energy bills an extra £1.1 billion a year above those on high incomes. A key reason for that is that such households often have to opt for a higher-cost payment method.
Interestingly, the energy companies often argue that the costs of providing and servicing prepayment meters are higher than for other payment methods, but Barnardo’s cites the example of what it refers to as the “reasonable cost” of the Northern Ireland keypad, which shows that prepayment meters do not necessarily have to involve a large premium. I am not familiar with the Northern Ireland system, but the Minister might want to investigate it.
Jim Shannon
The hon. Gentleman and I discussed this matter before and, if anyone heard my phone going, that was a text coming through to confirm the issue: the administrative costs in Northern Ireland are less, which is why it is cheaper than on the mainland. If the keypad system in Northern Ireland can be cheaper, perhaps that needs to be looked at.
Mr Weir
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification. Ofgem should certainly be looking at that matter, and perhaps the Minister will encourage it along that route.
Barnardo’s also makes the point that the reason that many people use such meters is that they do not have access to a bank account to take advantage of direct debit payment. That is undeniably true, but it is also true that it is almost impossible for many people in such situations to get a bank account, since, frankly, the main banks are not interested, and many of them now seem to be moving to charging for current accounts, which is hardly likely to help. Barnardo’s calls upon the Government to extend the Post Office card account to allow payment of bills by direct debit, which I understand was promised in the coalition agreement. I appreciate that this may be outwith the Minister’s remit today, but that could be considered when introducing the universal credit.
Prepayment meters also have the problem of self-disconnection, as the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) said. If people cannot afford to heat their homes, they simply do not put money in the meter. There is no active disconnection by the energy company, but the end effect is the same. That applies not just in Scotland but throughout the UK. The hon. Gentleman raised the issue in relation to Wales, but Stratford-on-Avon and district citizens advice bureau has contacted me about it. It takes issue with the term “self-disconnection”, making the valid point that it implies an element of choice. It also makes the point that in a harsh winter the loss of power to homes is national news—even during the spring this year it was national news—yet the plight of prepayment meter users, who must endure a regular loss of supply in both summer and winter because they cannot afford to buy credit, goes largely unnoticed.
Stratford-on-Avon and district citizens advice bureau told me that it has worked with other citizens advice bureaux and other organisations in its area to conduct a survey of prepayment users. It found that, as I have said, the exclusion of people from the best deals is clearly part of the problem, but it also noted that a worrying number of people do not understand how they are charged when they have such a meter. Those who move into a property where there is already a prepayment meter inherit an unfair system. They may quickly get into difficulties through no fault of their own and they often cannot afford to change the system they inherit.
Citizens Advice Scotland also raised that point and noted that many consumers are caught unawares by standing charges, so debt may accumulate in periods when they are using very little energy and impact upon them when they start to use it again in the winter months. It quotes the case of a client who is having 70% of each payment taken to meet those charges. Surely it is high time that action was taken to end such charges.
Citizens Advice Scotland adds that when consumers are in receipt of benefits, energy suppliers should recognise that they face additional payment difficulties and take action to support them, especially given the significant ongoing changes in the benefit system. In particular, suppliers should monitor usage, particularly among prepayment consumers, and take proactive action if there is evidence of self disconnection. I have been contacted by the StepChange debt charity, which has pointed out that an increasing number of over-60s are in fuel poverty because of rising prices, and that that number is substantially higher than in other age groups.
Citizens Advice recommended that prepayment meters should be fixed at the supplier’s cheapest tariff. I fully support that and urge the Minister to take it up with the energy companies and, if necessary, introduce amendments to the Energy Bill in the other place to make it happen. He did not accept my amendments when they were offered to him, but I will not take offence if he introduces his own. That would help to ensure that customers who have difficulty paying for energy and use prepayment meters as a budgeting tool are not penalised for doing so, and that customers with arrears are not pushed further into debt by the additional costs of installing a prepayment meter and of paying a higher tariff.
I would go even further. I sought in my amendments to put a cap on the amount of any payment into the meter that can be used to meet accumulated debt. I suggested 20%, but in the example I quoted earlier 70% was being taken and we should agree that 70% is totally unacceptable in such circumstances.
When alluding briefly to my amendments last Monday, the Minister’s colleague, the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), said that he was not in favour of a specific percentage because that could mean that people would continue to pay towards the debt over the summer months when they use little gas. However, as I said, because of the operation of standing charges on prepayment meters, debts continue to increase over that period whether energy is being used or not, so that argument does not hold water. He also stated that it would take a long time for a family to get out of debt. The problem with that approach is that people on low incomes cannot ever get to the stage of being able to heat their homes properly, leading to ever greater difficulty.
It may take much longer to pay off the debt, but it is surely better to accept that in an age of ever-increasing energy bills—few of us believe that they will fall significantly in the foreseeable future—we must make a much greater effort to help those who are in genuine difficulties, and accept that when people have got into difficulties the arrears simply must be paid off over a much longer period. It is imperative to ensure that people can heat their homes and cook their food, and are not subject to having no energy because they cannot afford to put credit on the meter.
Will the Minister consider whether that is a sensible way of dealing with an increasing problem? If he followed up some of my suggestions, it might help the Prime Minister to fulfil his promise to ensure that everyone is put on the lowest tariff.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) on securing this debate on fuel poverty and the use of prepayment meters. He is an acknowledged champion in this place of the fuel-poor, and from my time on the Select Committee on Environmental Audit I know of his personal commitment and professional expertise. Whenever he speaks on the subject, we listen carefully and thoughtfully even if we do not always agree. I reassure him that the coalition Government are committed to helping hard-working families and consumers with the rising cost of living. We recognise that the rising cost of energy is currently one of the biggest worries for householders.
The modest fall in the number of households living in fuel poverty was confirmed in April. The latest figures show that in 2011, 4.5 million households in the UK were in fuel poverty. That was a slight decrease from 4.75 million in 2010, which saw the first fall in the number of fuel-poor since 2004. Throughout the last Parliament and for a couple of years before, there was an inexorable increase in the number of fuel-poor. Despite the modest falls, encouraging as they are, there is absolutely no room for complacency. The figure is still far too high and we are honest enough to realise that some of the problem is beyond the Government’s control. The steady growth in the number was driven primarily by increases in the wholesale price of gas. There is a direct correlation not between the sympathy that the Government of the day feel for the fuel-poor and the rhetoric they employ, but between the wholesale cost of gas and the price of energy that people must pay. We must do more to decouple that link and to cushion consumers from the international gas markets.
Mr Weir
I do not disagree with what the Minister has said so far. He is correct about what is driving rising fuel prices, but does that not make it imperative that the Government adopt the little things I suggested to ameliorate the situation? It is all very well talking about wholesale gas prices, but it is the people at the sharp end who are suffering them. My suggestions would not solve the problem, but they would ameliorate the situation for those vulnerable people.
Gregory Barker
The hon. Gentleman made several points that I hope to cover, but I want to set out the framework and the context in which we must operate. Of the 3.2 million fuel-poor households in England in 2011, around 20% paid for their electricity and 24% paid for their gas with prepayment meters. Many hon. Members and certainly members of the public will be surprised that the figure is so low, because there is often an assumption that “fuel-poor” and “prepayment meter” are synonymous. In fact, only a relatively small number of the fuel-poor—20%—are on prepayment meters. Prepayment meters enable customers to monitor and control their energy expenditure in a direct and immediate way and, as a last resort, they can be a valuable alternative to disconnection for non-payment of bills.
Where prepayment meters are installed to recover a debt, that element of a customer’s payment must be set at a level that takes into account their ability to pay. The hon. Gentleman rightly says that there must be an equitable balance in such situations between debt repayment and the real ongoing needs of a household to cook, to heat the home to a safe level and to light the premises, particularly where there are children, or elderly or vulnerable people. It is understandable that he seeks a cap for weekly payments. Customers in debt repay a fixed amount at fixed intervals—for example, weekly. The amount repaid is calculated for each customer based on their personal circumstances and their ability to pay. He asked what would happen if their circumstances changed. In those cases, customers should talk to their supplier about the change and how it may impact on their ability to repay debt.
I recognise that a percentage repayment, such as 20% of the amount spent, may feel fairer, and that fixed payments can be a blunt instrument, but there are two sides to the coin. There is a risk that setting a percentage limit may create a floor rather than a ceiling. It may encourage suppliers to use the limit as the automatic default position rather than, as they do now, individualised payment plans, which are surely in everyone’s interest.
The hon. Gentleman makes the valid point that in some cases customers may feel that they are set an inappropriately high debt recovery level. If that is the case, they need to speak to their supplier. If that does not satisfy them, they should speak to Ofgem or the energy saving advice service, which is run by the Government, for further advice on what to do.
Mr Weir
Does the Minister not accept that if Citizens Advice Scotland is coming across rates of 70%, where £7 in every £10 goes towards paying down the arrears, something is seriously wrong? It is not just one case; Citizens Advice Scotland cites several. That cannot be right.
Gregory Barker
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it does not seem right, but I am not aware that it is the norm; it is the exception and if he is aware of such cases, I encourage him to take them up. I want to know more about the individual circumstances of the household and how the debt built up to such a level. We cannot have a situation where we ignore moral hazard and certain households do not feel an obligation to repay debt, because that penalises and is unfair to those on low incomes who struggle to pay their electricity and heating bills on time. We simply cannot give away heating when their next-door neighbours are struggling hard to do the right thing and pay the bills. There is a balance of fairness to be met.
Jim Shannon
In an intervention, I made a point about the administrative costs of the keypad system in Northern Ireland. It is cheaper than the system on the UK mainland in England and Wales. Is the Minister prepared to consider that system? If we could reduce administrative costs, it would be a factor in the saving for the consumer.
Gregory Barker
I would be more than willing to do that. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will be kind enough to write to me with his particular proposal, or the example he thinks best illuminates the case. Prepayment meters obviously have a cost. Ofgem estimates that it costs £88 more than paying by direct debit. If there is a cheaper alternative model for prepayment meters in Northern Ireland, I, for one, would be extremely interested in looking at it.
The hon. Member for Angus mentioned the Prime Minister’s commitment to put everyone on the best deal, but that deal must be cost-reflective. As I said, it costs more to put people on prepayment meters. Ultimately, with only 20% of the fuel-poor, roughly speaking, on prepayment meters, we should not see them as a good thing. In an ideal world, no one would be on a prepayment meter. We do not want to create such an attractive situation that more people opt to go to a prepayment meter.
One of the exciting developments in technology is the advent of smart meters, which will considerably change the ability of consumers to interact with suppliers and will enable suppliers to have a much better relationship with consumers. Consumers will be empowered to make better choices of tariff and how they pay. Obviously, it will be a while before the whole country has smart meters, but we are determined that our smart meter programme should cover the entire country by the end of the decade. Clearly, that leaves some time and we cannot ignore what happens in the meantime.
In many cases, prepayment meters are installed to recover a debt. That element of a customer’s payment must be set at a level that takes into account their ability to pay. That is a point of universal agreement. Prepayment meters also enable customers to monitor and control their energy expenditure, and smart meters will play a valuable additional role.
Gregory Barker
I will, but I am running out of time and I had hoped to answer more of the points that have been raised.
Hywel Williams
I will be very brief. Understandably, the Minister has so far talked about the individual consumer. Does he commend the Welsh Assembly for including a specific fuel poverty reduction target in their campaign to reduce poverty in general in Wales by 2020? Would that be a course of action for his Government?
Gregory Barker
We do not just have a target; we have a legally binding obligation to deal with fuel poverty. In common with many other people, I have a slight degree of target fatigue, because targets do not get rid of fuel poverty: action, policy and committing to take measures and following them through get rid of fuel poverty. I am slightly sceptical that setting more targets is a good way of addressing something. The previous Government had a target, and fuel poverty relentlessly rose during the last Parliament. We need a Government who are committed to real solutions in the real world, and that is the hallmark of this coalition.
Given the levels of concern over the payment method, I am pleased that 80% of the fuel-poor do not pay for their energy via prepayment meters, and I do not want those households to find themselves subsidising others, either intentionally or unintentionally. The coalition shares the concerns of the hon. Member for Angus about the remaining 20% of the fuel-poor who pay for their energy through prepayment meters.
Since 2010, most suppliers have chosen to equalise their prepayment tariffs with standard credit prices, which is a major step forward. In the current system, licence conditions require suppliers to take into account the consumer’s ability to repay when setting instalments to repay gas and/or electricity debt. That allows consumers or their advocates to come to an individual agreement with suppliers that fits their circumstances.
Clear communication is the key to compliance. An assessment of a customer’s ability to repay a debt should be verified through direct customer contact or through a third party, such as the citizens advice bureaux, which do such brilliant work. It is clearly important that consumers know how much they are repaying each week and when the debt will be repaid. The average level of debt owed by dual fuel consumers in 2011 was £728, so a family with an average level of debt agreeing to repay the debt at £5 a week on top of their consumption would know that the debt would be cleared within two years and eight months. Fuel poverty and a customer’s ability to pay their energy costs are among my Department’s top concerns.
Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)
Order. The meter has run out, and the debate has to be switched off.
Gangmasters Licensing Authority (Civil Fines)
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone.
This time last year, on 20 June 2012, I held a debate on the Gangmasters Licensing Authority, and the then Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice), who is my constituency neighbour, assured the House that he had
“a package of proposed changes to the GLA, including…looking at the scope to use civil penalties.”
Indeed, he very kindly went on to say that I was right in calling for the ability to fine gangmasters. He said that the GLA board had “very few enforcement weapons” and that we needed
“a tier of measures for it to utilise.”—[Official Report, 20 June 2012; Vol. 546, c. 276WH.]
It therefore may surprise the House and you, Mr Hollobone, to learn that despite the Minister’s saying that that analysis was right, the Department’s own consultation now specifically excludes the tier of measures to which my right hon. Friend was referring.
We should remind ourselves of what is at stake. I am very pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris) in his place. He will know that the GLA was set up in 2004 after the tragedy of the Morecambe bay cockle pickers disaster. He has spoken most effectively in bringing these issues to the attention of the House previously. We are talking about legislation that is directed at protecting the most vulnerable people in society and particularly those working in the agricultural sector. In many cases, they are a long way from home, have difficulties with the language and are fearful of authority. They are therefore vulnerable people who do need protecting.
It is remarkable that the consultation brought forward by the Department seems to be excluding the measure that the Minister, in response to my debate last year, said was an important tool that was lacking and needed to be included. It may be helpful if I set out why I think that the Department has got itself into this situation. I think that it is in large measure down to another ministerial statement. We all like cross-departmental working, and it is very good that the Department is taking note of ministerial statements elsewhere. The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), quite rightly articulated concerns about red tape. That is a concern that many hon. Members share. My right hon. Friend therefore set out a new test: it was a general rule that new powers to fine should not apply to firms with fewer than 250 people. There was good logic to bringing in that measure, but it was a general rule; it was not absolute. This Minister may want to clarify the position with his officials. Obviously, the measure has been signed off by Ministers, but there almost seems to be a bit of gold-plating whereby what is a general rule has been applied in absolute terms.
Of course, most gangmasters do not employ more than 250 people. Indeed, if they did, the existing powers would be confined just to those above 250, but we do not do that for the criminal powers, so is it not illogical that for criminal powers we say that they apply to the gangmaster population as a whole, yet for civil powers, where one assumes a lower test, we raise the bar and say that they apply only to gangmasters with more than 250 people working for them? That is at odds not only with what the Minister said to me this time last year in response to my debate, but with the existing legislation under which the Department is acting. It is also—dare I say it?—at odds with common sense, because if we look at the use of criminal powers, we see that it is clearly not working.
Let us take, for example, two recent cases in Northern Ireland. In those cases, the fines imposed on the gangmasters acting illegally and making large sums of money—often, gangmasters are not paying tax, and quite often they are linked to other crime, such as prostitution and counterfeiting—were just £500 apiece. I think that most hon. Members would accept that the profits that those gangmasters had made far exceeded the fines that were imposed by the courts. We have a strange situation in which we have criminal powers, which the GLA rarely uses. If a gangmaster is unlucky enough to be caught, they know that the fine is likely to be less than the profits that they have made. They know that, on most occasions, witnesses are very fearful of coming forward and therefore the number of prosecutions is very low. Last year, for example, there were just 15 prosecutions against gangmasters.
Let us put that in context. We currently have under way—I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary for the support that she has given—an operation in the fens, which my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) will be familiar with, Operation Pheasant. So far, it has raided 80 homes and it has a number of live inquiries, but it is finding the most horrendous issues. We had a case recently in Whittlesey in which migrant labour was living in a house and there was CCTV not just on the front and back doors but in the inside rooms in order that the gangmaster could control his labour force. We have had other cases of people living in a garage with an open sewer.
This is an issue not just for the vulnerable in communities such as mine and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough but for the local residents, because where there are high concentrations of houses in multiple occupation, there is antisocial behaviour. It is very difficult for people to stay in the house, so they tend to go out and street-drink. When they street-drink, we get urination on people’s front doors. I cited some particularly unpleasant and disturbing cases in the debate last year. I will not detain hon. Members by rerunning those, but it is very clear that there are issues of antisocial behaviour and legitimate concerns for the local population that flow back to our unwillingness to tackle gangmasters.
Therefore, I suggest to the House that the key way in which we should be tackling gangmasters is by hitting them in the area that they are most concerned about. That is in their pocket; it is through fines. That is the way in which we will change their behaviour, so I find it remarkable that the consultation from the GLA is excluding a tool that the Minister last year said was important, is gold-plating a legitimate concern of the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks, and applying that in a bizarre and arbitrary way and is failing to address the legitimate concerns about antisocial behaviour with enforcement, because the criminal tools that are used are not working. They are rarely applied. The fact that there were just 15 prosecutions clearly shows that they are not working. Then when there are prosecutions, the level of the fine is derisory.
I say to this Minister that I find the situation quite disappointing. I, as a Member of Parliament, articulate real concerns about things affecting my constituency. The Home Secretary acts on those concerns with Operation Pheasant. We have good support from Cambridgeshire police—in the debate last night, I paid tribute to Inspector Sissons and the work that he is doing. I am keen that my local council do more, and I have been in active discussions to ensure that it uses its powers. I am very sympathetic about the difficulties of resourcing that the GLA has. We all know that the last Government left us with a huge level of debt. Although I believe that the GLA should be far better resourced—I think that that would be a good use of the Department’s budget—I am very sympathetic about the difficulties that the Department faces because of what was inherited. But surely the answer, if we have a problem in trying to resource it more, is to make it easier to prosecute—to make it easier to impose fines, because it is the fines that will change the behaviour of the gangmasters.
We are not talking about all gangmasters; there are perfectly respectable gangmasters, but we know that there are illegal gangmasters and heartbreaking abuses taking place in my constituency and the constituencies of hon. Members across the fens. Unwarranted pressure is being placed on local residents, who often have to bear the consequences of the antisocial behaviour that flows from the concentration of houses in multiple occupation and the lack of enforcement against illegal gangmasters, who often misleadingly attract people from overseas. Illegal gangmasters will go to Lithuania for example and say, “Come to the fens. You have a guaranteed job and guaranteed accommodation.” When the workers arrive, there is often only one, two or three days’ work before they exhaust their savings, are in debt and the gangmasters have control.
There are real issues and they were raised last year. Other Departments have gripped the problem and acted. The Minister for Housing, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk) is organising a workshop in the fens, in Wisbech, for councils, so that we can share best practice. Other Departments are acting, but the Department of the Minister who is here today is not. Not only is it not acting, but it is ignoring the assurances that I felt were given to me last year, in my interpretation of what the then Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire said. In bringing this debate before the House again, I hope that the Minister here today will look again at his consultation and at whether the powers it equips the GLA with are adequate. If he wants to take this opportunity to announce additional resource for the fens, I will be delighted, but if he is not going to do that, what exactly is he going to do?
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful and fluent case. I pay tribute to his great campaigning work on illegal gangmasters. Does he agree that time is of the essence? The imperative is to do something soon, due to the free movement directive and the likely immigration of Romanians and Bulgarians next year. The Home Secretary has said how important reducing pull factors is, and measures on gangmasters would be part of that portfolio of policies, so the urgency is very much apparent.
Stephen Barclay
My neighbour and hon. Friend is right; there is urgency. I am sure that he shares my frustration for that reason. A number of us have been raising concerns for some time. I secured a debate on gangmasters last year. I raised concerns in the main Chamber. I have been to see the Home Secretary on a number of occasions. The police inspector came to see Lin Homer, the top official of HMRC, with me last year. For cross-departmental government to work, DEFRA needs to come to the party and get involved and the purpose of today’s debate is to draw the consultation before the Minister more firmly to his attention. I think that the ministerial statement of the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks, has been misinterpreted.
I hope that the Minister here today can reassure us, but if not, ultimately I hope that he can address the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough: what will the Minister’s Department do through the GLA to effect change on the ground? If we are to maintain community cohesion, the GLA matters. To address the antisocial behaviour that flows from the consequences and criminal actions of illegal gangmasters, the GLA must be part of the action taken. I therefore hope that the Minister can reassure the House that the comments of his predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire, will form part of the consultation and the response to tackle illegal gangmasters operating in the fens.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) on securing the debate. I am pleased to see his colleagues, the hon. Members for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) and for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris) here. I know that they share a common concern about the operation of gangmasters in their constituencies.
It is important that I open by saying how significant the operation of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority is. We need it to work for precisely the reasons that the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire set out: to ensure that very vulnerable people are not exploited by criminals—let us be clear, they are criminals—who wish to use the opportunities that arise from people coming from overseas and finding themselves in a vulnerable situation.
I would like to respond to the points that the hon. Gentleman made, but also to say a few words about the proposed improvements to the operation of the GLA, which has done and continues to do a great deal of valuable work, which most people recognise, to protect and enforce the rights of vulnerable workers. Many reviews over recent years, including the farming regulation task force and forestry regulation task force, have looked at the GLA’s work, and there is general recognition among stakeholders that it has been effective in improving working conditions in the regulated sectors.
In recognising the highly valuable work the GLA has done, the reviews have also shown that there is room for improvement, so there is an opportunity to make the GLA a modern enforcement agency that better targets criminal activities, while applying a light touch elsewhere. That is one of the thrusts of the work we have done. Part of the consultation that is happening at the moment is about how we can take our foot off the pedal in areas where it is not needed, to concentrate resources on the areas that the hon. Gentleman has drawn to the attention of the House.
Through the employment theme of the red tape challenge, the continuing need for the GLA’s work was endorsed, alongside the need to bring forward measures to ensure that it can become more focused on the worst excesses of worker exploitation in the sectors it regulates. As the hon. Gentleman said, my predecessor, the right hon. Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice), announced, via a written statement to Parliament a year ago, the range of reforms that would come forward.
The GLA will increase joint working with other agencies involved in stamping out serious organised crime activities, including human trafficking, money laundering, tax evasion and other serious organised crimes. To enable that increased focus on the serious criminal elements in the supply of labour to the food and food processing sector, the GLA will modify its processes and deploy its resources in a way that relieves the burden of regulation from highly compliant businesses, but targets criminals through improved intelligence gathering.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
In Carnforth in my constituency, the Morecambe bay hybrid fishery order is being drafted at the moment. Can the Minister assist the legislation to go through quicker? It will enable the licensing and policing of the bay for shellfish farmers and harvesters and cockle pickers.
Mr Heath
I am not sure that I am in a position to help with what is presumably private legislation, in that it is independent of Government processes, but I have heard what the hon. Gentleman has said. Having such an order in place would clearly benefit his constituents, which is why he has raised it today. I do not blame him for doing so.
Before that intervention, I was suggesting that in areas where the experience of GLA enforcement over the years has shown that there is less need for regulation, we can safely remove those currently licensed activities from the scope of regulation and redeploy the resources elsewhere. My Department launched a public consultation in April this year on proposed reforms to GLA operations, as the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire said. That consultation includes proposals to exclude some activities that currently require a licence from the scope of licensing, where evidence suggests that there is a low risk of exploitation of workers. That proposal would remove about 150 businesses from licensing, saving those businesses about £60,000 and enabling GLA resources to be deployed elsewhere to tackle serious abuses.
Changes are proposed to the size and constitution of the GLA board, to make it smaller and better able to provide clear strategic direction for the organisation. The consultation also looks at the scope to introduce civil penalties—exactly the point that the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire made—into the range of enforcement tools that the GLA has available.
The GLA is a designated regulator under the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008—the so-called RES Act—which permits the use of civil penalties as an alternative to prosecution in certain circumstances. The point that the hon. Gentleman made, and he quite properly set out exactly why this is an obstacle for us, is that the sectors that the GLA regulates are overwhelmingly made up of small and medium-sized enterprises.
The scope for use of civil sanctions in the RES Act is constrained by Government policy in that area, and I recognise immediately that what the hon. Gentleman is asking me to do is to challenge another Department’s policy. I think that is implicit in what he says, but for the benefit of the record I want to state that Government policy in that area was clearly set out in a written statement to Parliament last November, by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon).
That statement made it clear that, in general, SMEs should not be subject to monetary fines because of the risk of smaller companies feeling less equipped to challenge the basis for such fines. That is very clear Government policy and if I wished to engage in a dialogue with my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks on the issue, we would need to establish why this matter should be the exception to that rule.
Stephen Barclay
The crux of the matter is in two of the words that the Minister just said: “in general”. My colleagues on the Government Benches very much support the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks. We understand the difficulties of the red tape, but it is this “in general”. What we are saying is that in this instance there is a distinction between the criminality of gangmasters operating against vulnerable people—the raids are revealing some horrendous and immoral issues—and the small business owner suffering from red tape. It is that distinction that I ask the Minister to take away, from a cross-departmental point of view, and take up with colleagues.
Mr Heath
Of course I understand what the hon. Gentleman says, and I understand why he is bringing the matter forward in the context of his constituency interest, but I have to say that where there is criminality I believe that criminal sanctions should apply. I want to make it absolutely clear that, if the evidence is there, there should not be the slightest hesitation in bringing a criminal action. The question of civil sanctions is, in a sense, a reserve position for situations in which a criminal prosecution is inappropriate.
Stephen Barclay
The Minister is generous in giving way a second time. The facts speak for themselves—only 15 prosecutions. For criminal prosecutions a higher standard of evidence is required, and they are therefore more difficult. They take longer and are more expensive, and we are talking about an organisation with resource constraints.
For the measure to work, the Minister needs the resource. Perhaps I can take him back to his earlier remarks. Yes, in the consultation we are reducing the board—frankly, big deal; it is pretty irrelevant—but how many investigators from the GLA are covering Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Lincolnshire? The figures I had, off the record, were very small. Will the Minister share the figures with the House?
Mr Heath
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I do not have the figures with me and will, therefore, happily write to him to set out the position.
I will, in fact, go further than that. I am due in East Anglia tomorrow and I plan to meet with the GLA to discuss exactly how it operates and how we can help it to operate, so it seems entirely appropriate that we look at the resourcing issues. It is not small beer to redirect resources from areas where they are deployed to no great benefit because they are being used to license people who have not the slightest intention of breaking the law, and have the track record to show that they do not. It seems entirely appropriate to redirect the resource to deal with the bad guys, against whom we need to collect evidence.
I take the point about the difference between criminal and civil standards of proof. That is, of course, a factor, but let me be absolutely clear: I want more criminal prosecutions. I want to see more people brought before a court for their abuses and I want them then to suffer the further penalty, where appropriate, of proceeds of crime restitution, so that we get back the money that the gangmasters have acquired through illicit means. We also need to make it plain that they are not wanted in our agricultural industry. We must deal with them effectively.
I do not quarrel at all with the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I want to ensure that we do this right, and I am working within an overall Government policy that is resistant to the view that civil sanctions are the appropriate means of dealing with small and medium-sized businesses. That is my difficulty. It is not an insurmountable difficulty, but I need to persuade others in Government of the case.
Some provisions of the RES Act might be useful to the operation of the GLA. We have invited views from stakeholders on the usefulness of the measures, and the public consultation by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs remains open until 21 June. I therefore invite the hon. Gentleman, and others who feel strongly about the matter, to ensure that their views are fed into that consultation process. When we respond to the consultation in due course, it will be helpful for us clearly to understand, from colleagues who represent areas where many labourers work in such schemes, what the problems are and how we should best deal with them.
As I said, I am very happy to look at the matter in the round and to recognise the strength of the arguments, but I come back to my basic premise, from which I will not resile: the key change will be to redirect resources as the GLA is asking us to. That seems to make sense, but obviously we must wait for the consultation process to end to see whether others agree that we should redirect resources in the key areas of serious offences and organised crime.
The GLA itself has been at the forefront of the reform programme, and last week published its three-year strategy for protecting vulnerable workers, which emphasises an intelligence-led, risk-based approach, working closely in partnership with other agencies. The hon. Gentleman will know that the GLA is active in many parts of the country, including in the constituencies of the hon. Gentlemen here today: North East Cambridgeshire, Morecambe and Lunesdale, and Peterborough.
The hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire mentioned Operation Pheasant, a multi-agency taskforce set up to tackle ongoing worker issues in the area. Three people have been arrested on suspicion of human trafficking offences in Wisbech, and a diverse team of agencies has been assembled to assist with the operation, with partners including Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, the Home Office, trading standards, Fenland district council and Cambridgeshire fire and rescue.
I want to know more about the matter at first hand, which is one of the reasons why I am going to East Anglia tomorrow to talk directly to GLA officers and partner agencies involved in the joint operation. If they tell me that there are clear areas in which we have still not dealt effectively with the issues they want us to address, the hon. Gentleman can be assured that I will act on that and take their advice in developing Government policy.
I believe that the package of reforms that we are taking forward with the GLA will make the authority better able to protect vulnerable workers, while easing burdens on the majority of businesses, which are compliant and law-abiding. I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for having given us the opportunity to discuss this extremely important issue.
Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)
I suspect that the debate has been the best possible pre-briefing for the Minister’s visit tomorrow.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Defence Recovery Capability
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark Francois)
Today marks the defence recovery capability reaching full operating capability following initial operating capability in 2010. Today also formally launches the recovery career services programme which delivers an individualised career service that assists our wounded, injured and sick personnel to achieve a sustainable and fulfilling second career.
The defence recovery capability ensures that wounded, injured and sick personnel have access to all the key services and resources needed to help them either return to duty or make an effective transition to an appropriately skilled civilian life. This care is delivered across the defence community by the combined efforts of the services and the service charities responding to carefully tailored individual recovery plans setting out a recovery pathway.
The defence recovery capability is a Ministry of Defence (MOD) led initiative designed to deliver co-ordinated support to wounded, injured and sick service personnel. This is delivered in partnership with Help for Heroes and the Royal British Legion and is supported by other service charities and organisations. This capability is underpinned by substantial financial investment by both the MOD and its partners, Help for Heroes and the Royal British Legion; this represents the largest single charitable contribution to the armed forces community in British history.
Each person who is supported by the defence recovery capability will get an individual tailored recovery plan, which integrates all aspects of recovery including medical care, welfare, housing, education, re-skilling, work placements, employment issues and opportunities to either return to duty or transition to civilian life.
The personnel recovery centres have been designed to create a military style environment where our personnel can recover. They are located at Catterick, Colchester, Edinburgh, Plymouth, Sennelager in Germany, Tidworth and the Battle Back Centre in Lilleshall. These centres facilitate and conduct recovery activities in support of individual recovery plans. The Battle Back Centre uses adaptive sport and adventurous training as a vehicle to help wounded, injured and sick personnel focus on what they can do through the multi-activity courses that are run there.
Complex or lengthy cases are transferred to personnel recovery units which are in key locations around the country and deliver high-quality command and care in order to gain the right outcome for the individual and the MOD. Personnel are allocated a personnel recovery officer as their military point of contact who will provide support throughout the period of recovery while in service.
The new recovery career services programme is a vocational, needs-based service, offering the greatest levels of support to those who face the most significant barriers to employment given their medical condition. It provides nationwide specialist employment consultants, a relationship team, a service requirements team and specialist web-portal access. The recovery career services programme is a collaborative venture between the service charities, Oxfordshire county council and the MOD which is closely aligned with the career transition partnership. It will ensure wounded, injured and sick personnel are given tailor made support to assist them in competing effectively in the civilian employment market. Further information is available via the website http://www.recoverycareerservices.org.uk.
The MOD wishes to express its thanks to its charitable partners for their continued support to the defence recovery capability, which has helped to make the achievement of full operating capability a reality.
FCO Spending 2013-14
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
In my statement to the House of 10 July 2012, Official Report, column 16WS, I set out the funding allocations for the FCO’s strategic programmes for the financial year 2012-13. I now wish to inform the House of the FCO’s spending plans for financial year 2013-14, together with further information on how we will deploy the funds effectively.
As part of the 2010 spending review settlement, and in support of the Government’s commitment to reduce the deficit, the FCO’s budget is being reduced in real terms year on year. Further budget reductions have been made in announcements at the last two autumn statements and the Budget. In total this has reduced the FCO’s budget for 2013-14 by £26 million more than was anticipated in the 2010 spending review.
In order to live within reduced budget allocations, savings are required from all parts of the FCO budget. The FCO is committed to increasing efficiency and is on track to deliver £100 million of administrative savings by 2015.
BBC World Service and the British Council are also funded from the FCO budget and represent around one quarter of the FCO expenditure in 2013-14. At the Budget, the Chancellor announced that all unprotected areas of Government spending would be cut by 1%. Spending on overseas development is protected. In line with this, FCO funding in 2013-14 to BBC World Service will reduce by £2.22 million and to the British Council by £0.6 million.
Specifically on the BBC World Service, we will be working closely to review its proposals for investments in World Service TV in Afghanistan, Burma and Somalia, with an expectation that additional programme funds of £0.5 million will be made available in 2013-14. Looking forward, we will shortly agree with the BBC Trust the BBC World Service operating licence objectives, targets and priorities, which will come into force from April 2014 when the BBC World Service moves to licence fee funding.
The funds allocated to our strategic programmes are also falling over the four-year SRIO period to reflect these financial constraints. Allocations for financial year 2013-14 take into account the changing nature of some of our programmes and the greater operating efficiency with which they need to be delivered.
The FCO’s strategic programmes directly support the delivery of two of our foreign policy priorities: safeguarding the UK’s national security; and building the UK’s prosperity; plus our important work to promote the UK’s values. Our programmes allow for dynamic and targeted interventions, working alongside host Governments and civil society around the world to deliver projects which enhance our bilateral relationships and strengthen the UK’s position internationally.
In the past year, we increased the scope and nature of our programme funding, putting further funding into priority areas such as maritime security, democracy and good governance and enhancing our engagement with the emerging economies.
The total allocation for financial year 2013-14 is £133.55 million, of which £81.8 million will be spent on official development assistance. The allocation for this financial year is a reduction of just over £10 million from last year’s opening figure. I have allocated £44 million in the area of security; £26.9 million for prosperity work; and £62.65 million for programmes in support of our values including our bilateral, regional, and human rights programmes.
In the area of security, we will target our activity on areas such as aviation and maritime security and building counter-terrorism capacity in key countries to strengthen their ability to detect and disrupt threats while protecting human rights. We will also continue to support counter-proliferation work, including through strengthening the international rules-based system that underpins our efforts. We will continue to be engaged in Afghanistan on law enforcement, security, governance, rule of law and democracy; working closely with Afghan partners to ensure UK-funded projects are sustained in the long term.
Our prosperity-related work will focus on promoting the UK’s economic growth, particularly working on opening markets, promoting sustainable global growth and ensuring access to resources. We want to encourage openness to trade and investment, strengthen the multilateral trading system and support the rules-based international economic system. We will continue to focus efforts in the emerging economies in the coming year. This will reinforce our strategy of deploying more staff to the emerging powers and fastest growing regions as the cost of our diplomatic presence in Iraq and Afghanistan reduces and we restructure our subordinate post network in Europe. In the area of climate change, we will aim to create the conditions necessary to raise ambition on emissions mitigation and the shift in investment to low carbon.
The work to promote the UK’s values and build our international influence will focus on promoting human rights, democracy and good governance. As part of this, we will continue to support the Westminster Foundation for Democracy; we will maintain our scholarships programme, offering outstanding scholars with leadership potential from around the world the opportunity to study in the UK; we will work with DFID in support of the Arab Partnership participation programme; and we will maintain our commitment to the overseas territories.
Our policy programme evaluation board, which is chaired by a non-executive member, will monitor and evaluate our strategic programmes throughout the year, to ensure they are providing the greatest possible impact and value for money.
Pre-trial Cross-examination Testing
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
The Government are committed to improving the experience of witnesses in court to ensure that they are supported to give their best evidence. Recent harrowing court cases involving children and other vulnerable people have highlighted that there is more we can do.
For some time now, the Ministry of Justice has been working with our partners in the criminal justice system to actively look at the issues around implementing section 28 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999. Section 28 would allow for recorded pre-trial cross-examination of vulnerable and intimidated witnesses in cases where there may be a delay in the holding of the trial or where the nature of the case is such that the witness could be cross-examined in advance of trial.
I am confirming today the Government’s plan to pilot section 28 by the end of the year in three Crown court locations—Liverpool, Leeds and Kingston upon Thames. The pilots will run for six months followed by an assessment period after which we will consider how best to take this measure forward.
Child Sexual Abuse
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald)
The Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) has today launched a public consultation on his new interim guidelines for prosecuting cases involving child sexual abuse.
The guidelines set out the new approach that prosecutors should take when reviewing cases of child sexual abuse and how they should look at the overall credibility of the allegation of abuse. The guidelines are intended to cover the range of child sexual abuse, including the abuse usually characterised as “child sexual exploitation”.
The guidelines have been issued on an interim basis as they are the subject of a public consultation exercise that will last for three months. The DPP will publish his final guidelines later this year once he has considered the responses to the consultation.
Copies of the interim guidelines have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
The DPP’s interim guidelines are being published at the same time as new guidance for the police is being issued by the College of Policing, and which is also the subject of public consultation.
Grand Committee
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall)
Perhaps I may remind the Committee that in the event of a Division in the Chamber the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes from the sound of the Division Bell.
Intellectual Property Bill [HL]
“(1) In section 213(1) of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (unregistered design right: nature of design right), for “an original design” substitute “a design which is new and has individual character”.
(2) In section 213(2) of that Act for “the design of any aspect of the shape or configuration (whether internal or external) of the whole or part of an article” substitute “the appearance of the whole or a part of a product resulting from the features of, in particular, the lines, contours, colours, shape, texture and/or materials of the product itself or its ornamentation, or both”.
(3) In section 213(3) of that Act, for paragraphs (a) to (c) substitute—
“(a) features of appearance of a product which are solely dictated by its technical function;(b) features of appearance of a product which must necessarily be reproduced in their exact form and dimensions in order to permit the product in which the design is incorporated or to which it is applied to be mechanically connected to or placed in, around or against another product so that either product may perform its function;(c) a design which is contrary to public policy or to accepted principles of morality.”(4) For section 213(4) substitute—
“(4) In determining whether a design is new and has individual character, the definitions contained in Articles 3, 4(2), 5(1)(a), 5(2), 6 and 7 of the Community Design Regulation, Regulation 6/2002 of 12 December 2001 (as amended), shall be applied.”
(5) In section 51(3) of that Act (design documents and models), for the definition of “design” substitute—
““design” has the meaning conferred on it by section 213(2);”.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I welcome the Minister and his team and thank them for the contribution they have already made to our understanding of these complex matters. Design rights are not easy, and it has been a bit of a learning curve for many of us. They have been extremely helpful so far, and I hope that we can work together to improve the Bill.
In Russell-Clarke and Howe on Industrial Designs, Martin Howe describes this as an area of law of “labyrinthine complexity”. Professor Cornish calls it “an absurd maze”. In response to the consultation, the IP Federation stated:
“Designs legislation is very hard to grasp. The legal complexity of the design system as a whole is confusing and hard even for advisers to handle on occasions”.
I could mention Ministers and shadow Ministers. I am sure that would have been perfectly appropriate.
The Government acknowledge that design rights law is complex and that the UK is currently out of step with other EU countries in retaining a relatively generous monopoly power provided by the unregistered designs right. However, they propose to do very little about this. The proposed reforms relate to minor matters, such as changes to the ownership of designs.
As the patents judges, Lord Justice Kitchin, Justice Floyd, Justice Arnold and His Honour Judge Birss QC, said in their response to the consultation, the amendments which have been put forward through this consultation exercise and survive in the Bill,
“represent ... piecemeal tinkering. What is urgently required is a thorough re-appraisal of UK design law as a whole in its international and European legal context followed by fresh legislation.
In particular, we note that the Consultation document recognises … that a fundamental problem with current UK designs law is that it is unduly complicated, yet it fails to make proposals which will significantly alleviate this problem. It is nothing short of ridiculous that a single design can potentially be protected by five different types of right (Community registered designs, Community unregistered design rights, UK registered designs, UK unregistered design rights and copyright)”.
The Modern Law of Copyright and Designs, which I am sure is at the bedside of the Minister, states:
“There is no reason why a proprietor should not claim design right in all aspects of the shape or configuration of his article which he believes could give him a commercial edge over his competitors.
In particular, when it comes to suing a competitor for infringement he will be well-advised to rely, individually and collectively, upon each of those separate aspects of shape or configuration which appear to have been copied by the competitor.
Needless to say, a statutory monopoly which allows the proprietor to mix and match in this way and which deprives a potential infringer of any way of knowing the scope of the exclusive rights which he faces unless and until the proprietor defines precisely what are alleged to be his design rights is ripe for abuse”.
Finally in this overview, Lord Justice Jacob stated in a case in 2006 that:
“UDR can subsist in the ‘design of any aspect of the shape or configuration (whether internal or external) of the whole or part of an article’. This is extremely wide—it means that a particular article may and generally will embody a multitude of ‘designs’—as many aspects of the whole or part of the article as can be. What the point was of defining ‘design’ in this way, I do not know. The same approach is not adopted for ordinary copyright where the work is treated as a whole”.
I make these points at length as they are important for the context of some of the debate we will be having on these earlier groups, which are largely around two aspects of the Government’s proposals. The first is, why have they chosen to pull back from the decision they originally had in mind during the consultation exercise to abandon the unregistered design right, or at least combine it with the community unregistered design right, a measure that would at least have some logic to it? They have chosen not to do so and we wish to probe that. Secondly, why is there tentativeness in their proposals to try to provide a commonality of approach between the registered and unregistered design routes?
A registered design has a ring to it because those in authority have seen, opined upon and sufficiently thought well of the design presented to them that they have registered it, much in the way that a small “c” with a circle around it has denoted copyright. The truth is that a registered design is nothing of the sort and seems to be a mainly bureaucratic exercise. The article has not been made but the design is registered simply on the basis of a submission and payment of a fee to the registry. I simplify to make the point but that is the essence of it. At the same time, and organically, the unregistered design right has grown up over the years and has provided a sensible and appropriate way, particularly in design industries such as fashion, effectively of securing a monopoly power for people to use in a way that will allow them to get a return on the investment of their creativity and money.
Our amendments are trying to help the Government in the sense that if the UDR is retained it would be a half-way point, as I have hinted, to combining it more closely with EU design law. I should be grateful for responses from the Minister on that. In support of my suggestion, I simply provide two more quotations. On the question of whether one should think about combining across Europe a single unregistered design process, the FICPI has stated:
“We believe having different eligibility requirements is complicated and not appropriate when IP is generally handled in a European policy framework ... we would prefer to see more radical harmonisation with EU design law to introduce the tests of novelty and individual character, rather than retaining different tests”.
These are points to which we will return in later amendments. The Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys agrees that,
“clarifying and limiting the current protection for any ‘aspect’ of the design of a ‘part’ of an article would reduce the tendency to overstate the breadth of UDR”.
The Government have come forward with the proposals that underlie the first part of the Bill. Previously in the consultation, they had suggested that there would be a considerable advantage in reviewing and simplifying the design area. That started with the Hargreaves report, which pointed out the complexity to which I referred. Instead, we have proposals that are much the same as before but with a few minor changes. We are not getting the sort of clarity that would help the industry to support the growth in our design capacity, contribute to our creative economy and improve the economic prospects of this country. The essence of these amendments is: why are the Government not considering modifying the test for infringement at least to be aligned with the community unregistered design right? I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
I should advise the Committee that if this amendment is agreed, I cannot call Amendment 2 by reason of pre-emption.
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, was only trying to be helpful with his first amendments but, from the word go, he has a certain way of frightening the horses. The reaction to his amendment by the design community, perhaps apart from the seven professors who lurk in the background to these and similar amendments tabled by the noble Lord—I am glad to say that we firmly rejected their wise advice on the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill—is that this is a last-minute change to emasculate unregistered design right, which is relied upon by almost every designer, as opposed to registered design. The noble Lord knows the scale of the use of unregistered design rights; more than 100,000 designs annually are protected by them, whereas only some 4,000 are protected by registered design. The whole purpose of unregistered design is to be analogous to copyright. That is what UK unregistered design right is about. It is very long established. The term for unregistered design rights is of course much shorter than for copyright, which was always the intention. However, the noble Lord’s amendment is extremely radical. I am sure that he does not really believe that this is the right way forward. I heard what he said about the Government's approach being merely piecemeal, but this is utterly fundamental at this stage.
I hope that the amendment is purely provocative and designed to have a debate but the noble Lord should know that many individual designers up and down the country would be absolutely horrified if the amendment passed and if unregistered design right did not have the scope that it now has. I will not go into the way in which the test is put forward in terms of whether it is world wide or original and what sort of protections are given. It is sufficient to say that in almost every respect small independent designers would be disadvantaged by the amendment.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie)
My Lords, at the outset of Committee, it may be helpful to remind everyone why the Bill is important. The measures in the Bill support business in driving economic growth and innovation by encouraging enterprise and expanding the range of economic sectors in the UK. Absurd maze or not, the designs and patents measures in the Bill will deliver many of the remaining commitments from the government response to the Hargreaves review of intellectual property and growth, which the Prime Minister commissioned in 2010.
The Bill will achieve three things. First, it will make it easier for business to understand what is protected under design and patent law, providing greater certainty for investors and reducing costs for business. Secondly, it will strengthen IP protection, including through the introduction of criminal penalties for copying UK registered designs. Thirdly, it will make the international and European IP system work better, helping UK business to be successful abroad. These measures will help our vitally important IP-intensive businesses and I look forward to the chance to debate the detail over the course of this Committee. I appreciate the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and I look forward to continuing to engage with him and all other noble Lords on the substantive and other issues raised during our consideration of the Bill.
Amendment 1 would change the legal definition of the UK unregistered design right to mirror that of the EU Community design, as set out in the Community design regulation. The result would be harmonisation with the European design right. Although I accept that the measure would simplify the design legal regime in the UK, the change would not be welcomed by the UK design industry. I am most grateful for the support given by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones on that.
There was almost complete support for the retention of the UK unregistered design right, in its current form, in response to the Government’s consultation. In particular, this was due to its application to some functional designs, for which the UK design right is unique. The result of this amendment, changing all elements of the current definition of the UK design unregistered right apart from its duration, would be unpopular with many parts of the design industry, because many of its designs would lose their protection.
Amendment 7 would harmonise the conditions of UK unregistered design infringement with EU law, as set out in the European directive and regulation. These are also the same conditions that apply to the UK registered design. This would be a fundamental and significant change to the application of unregistered design law in the UK. Since its introduction in 1988, a considerable body of case law has built up relating to the infringement of unregistered designs, one of the leading cases being PepsiCo v Grupo. Businesses and the legal profession have also spent a considerable amount of time in building a clear understanding of this case law.
More fundamentally, the Government are concerned about the effect that the change would have in altering the way in which infringement of the UK unregistered design is determined before the courts. The current test has been interpreted narrowly in a number of leading cases. This is in contrast to the test applied in EU law, which is potentially wider in scope. It would be troubling indeed if the change meant that existing designs were suddenly subject to infringement actions from which they were previously free. Furthermore, while the wider scope of the EU unregistered right may be justified given that it has a lifespan of only three years, the Government consider that it would be inappropriate for a right that lasts up to 15 years, as is the case with the UK unregistered design right, to enjoy wider protection. There would be serious concerns about the effect of this on innovation.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked what the Government are doing generally to align EU and UK rights. The Government are seeking, through this Bill, to align design rights wherever possible—for example, through the changes proposed to amend the rules on commissioning and defences to infringement as a general clause. The noble Lord also raised some general points on the Government’s proposals in the Bill and their decision not to go for wholesale reform. We listened carefully to stakeholders, who told us that there was value in both the formal registered right and the less formal unregistered right, which enable certain businesses that work in fast-moving fields, such as the fashion industry, to enjoy the right protection for them. On the basis of the arguments presented, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Howarth of Newport
Perhaps I may probe the noble Lord a little further on his views on what the optimum period for protection for design rights ought to be. It seems to me that, as a principle, protection of intellectual property ought to be for the minimum period consistent with encouraging innovation. There is a very large difference between the position in the European Union and the position under UK law. If the European Union provides protection for up to three years and under our own domestic law we provide protection for up to 15 years, that is a huge discrepancy. Will the Minister help us to understand the Government’s thinking on what really would be the optimum period of protection? Fifteen years seems a very long period. I appreciate that there are all sorts of situations and all sorts of varieties of design, and that longer protection may be more appropriate for some than for others, but what does he think should be the guiding principle?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I thank the noble Lord for that quite technical question. It is true that there is a clear discrepancy between three and 15 years. I think that it would be best if I write to the noble Lord and copy in other noble Lords with a substantive answer to clarify precisely how these time periods were arrived at and to give some background information on how they came about. I think that that is the best way forward.
Lord Borrie
Perhaps I may pursue this a little further. At Second Reading, I raised the point that in terms of intellectual property the grant of copyright or the grant of registered or unregistered design can result in a big improvement in competition. It encourages creativeness and innovation and it encourages the emergence of new competition. On the other hand, competition generally—meaning competition of new and old, old and new—surely means, to re-emphasise the point made by my noble friend Lord Howarth, that if because of the 15 years or any other substantial period general competition is confined and there is no competition for a particular design or copyright area, then the period is too long. In all the studies that have been made, including Hargreaves and so on, I wonder whether the rather vital matter of whether it should be 15 or 10 years or whether it should be so many months has been considered and reconsidered afresh in order to see how applicable these periods of time are for the future.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, in pursuance to what my noble friend said immediately before the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, intervened, would it be possible, in the interests of completeness, if all those who are currently present in Grand Committee were to get a copy of the letter that my noble friend sends to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I thank my noble friend for that comment. I think that I said earlier that I would copy in all noble Lords who are in Committee. I can certainly confirm that. The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, made some valid comments. Again, they are on quite a technical question and aligned with what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said. It is a difficult equation to get right because there are so many variables. I imagine that it would depend on the type of product being considered; I am sure that there are various other variables. It is therefore better to write a substantive response to cover all these issues. Existing protections have worked for many years and industry seems content with 15 years and, indeed, with three years. Having said that, I accept that there is a discrepancy between the two. In relation to the unregistered design right, a mark has to be copied, but I think the answer is that your Lordships who are in the Committee deserve a full reply. I would be interested to learn more myself.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, with his usual incisiveness, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, immediately spotted what I was up to. Far from frightening the horses, which is not in my nature—it may be the first time that that appellation has ever been suggested, as it is usually the other way around, with me running away from the horses—my point was to try to get up a debate about some of the underlying themes. We have just had that, so there has been success.
I would cavil at only a couple of the points made in the initial response. I did not entirely rely on professors, wonderful though they are in supplying us with information. I quoted extensively from the Bench. I would not want in any sense to choose between the two contributions, but I think that their sum was rather powerful. I simply lay that on the table.
The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, ended on an interesting point, which is that it is true that, when analysed back, the unregistered design right is in essence copyright by another name. However, it provides in the design production capacity the same sort of protections that we were debating on the ERR Bill in relation to 3-D objects, which the Government have taken powers to turn away from. I think that, under that design regime, copying more than 50 of an artistic design that was turned into a 3-D object and manufactured gave protection for 25 years. I might be getting mixed up between the rights. Yet that 25-year period has been replaced by the life of the designer plus 70 years. One could ask, but one would immediately run up against the points made by my noble friend Lord Howarth, why they have chosen to retain the design approach—a limited period of five years then five years, plus a further five—for unregistered designs and not taken what might be the logical step of saying, “If it is copyright by another name, why did we not move that way for the whole of this area?”.
Lord Clement-Jones
Perhaps I can help the noble Lord. Your Lordships may remember that the Section 52 debate during consideration of the ERR Bill was about works of artistic craftsmanship. There is a difference between the generality of design rights and those particular works covered by the items that the noble Lord is discussing.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the noble Lord for that intervention, but I think that that is the point I am trying to make. We are dealing with particular aspects of the design industry, which under this Bill is the production of individual designs that may or may not lead to products being created. However, the point made in the Section 52 debates—they became something else and were not on Section 52, but we know what we are talking about—was about a system of providing what my noble friend Lord Howarth said was missing in all our debates. What is the minimum period consistent with supporting innovation? Do we think that it lies more in the region of short terms such as five, 10 or 15 years, or even three years? Is that sufficient time to earn the return back on a particular artefact? I agree with the Minister that obviously it depends on the artefact. Alternatively, are we saying that any activity involving the production of original creativity deserves a period of the life of that designer plus 70 years? The two do not run together well.
Although the Minister has kindly said that he will write, this deserves more of a debate and discussion, possibly outside the confines of this Bill, so that we as a country think hard about this stuff, because we do not act alone. We are obviously straining to provide certainty and satisfaction in these areas for those who live and work in the United Kingdom. To a limited extent, that is extended to the European Union—and, in a particular measure on patents, to others affected by international treaties. But we are mainly talking about a UK arrangement that cannot extend beyond our borders and certainly does not run in other countries involved in copying or making articles that may or may not have a resemblance sufficient to warrant intervention through our legal processes, when they are brought back and sold here, as designs that originated here.
I do not think that we have got to the heart of this issue in this debate, which is a pity. The Minister was using the argument that the Bill was in part a completion of the Hargreaves recommendations but, as I said at Second Reading, Hargreaves did not take us to some of the conclusions in the Bill; he was very careful in many cases to point out that there were problems in the area and to suggest that more work was required before any Government could get down to it. At the very least, there had to be an overall review, which we have not had.
The UDR in this form is copyright-lite. It is being amended in a minor way and is of course the preferred choice. In some sense, that sends a message that we should be asking why designers think that the UDR is better than the design right, or anything else that is around. Somehow the system has to match the tests properly set by my noble friend Lord Howarth, which equates in some way to the need for a fair return without stifling the sort of innovation that my noble friend Lord Borrie talked about as being at the heart of this competitive industry.
I have said enough. I wanted this debate to get off the ground and I am grateful that we have had it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“(b) at the end insert—“( ) In this section “qualifying country” means—
(a) the United Kingdom; and(b) another member state of the European Economic Area.””
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, let me reassure the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that I am not big enough to frighten the horses—a small group of chickens, maybe, but that is about it.
The benefit that we have in this Committee is that we can probe, which is what we are seeking to do, not to be obstructive or negative but genuinely to probe areas that are complicated, as the Minister himself recognises. My apologies for the length of the contribution, but it is meant in a constructive and positive way.
The amendment is a probing one, designed to understand the nature of the change and the reason for the meaning of “qualifying country”. The definition of the current UDR has come in for substantial judicial criticism. In Dyson v Qualtex, Jacob LJ referred to the existing wording of CDPA Section 213, subsections (1) to (4) and observed:
“It has the merit of being short. It has no other”.
That could be a description of myself. He went on,
“Jonathan Parker J. considerably understated the position, when he said ‘regrettably, the drafting of s.213 leaves much to be desired’. (Mark Wilkinson Furniture Ltd v Woodcraft Designs (Radcliffe Ltd) (1998 F.S.R. 63 at p.27). It is not just a question of drafting (though words and phrases such as ‘commonplace’, ‘dependent’, ‘aspect of shape or configuration of part of an article’ and ‘design field in question’ are full of uncertainty in themselves and pose near impossible factual questions). The problem is deeper: neither the language used nor the context of the legislation give any clear idea what was intended. Time and time again one struggles but fails to ascertain a precise meaning, a meaning which men of business can reasonably use to guide their conduct. The amount of textbook writing and conjecture as to the meaning is a testament to its obscurity”.
At present, Section 213(4) states:
“A design is not ‘original’ for the purposes of this Part if it is commonplace in the design field in question at the time of its creation”.
There is a nice bit of tautology for you.
Lord Clement-Jones
I need to declare an interest as a member of the Law Society and of the City of London Law Society, because the noble Lord, Lord Young, is probing a very interesting point here. The Law Society itself, as well as the City of London Law Society, makes a rather similar point. Noble Lords may be glad to hear it in a slightly shorter form. I shall read it out.
“The society remains concerned that the proposed amendment puts UK businesses at a competitive disadvantage since it will require the UK to provide protection to entities based in overseas jurisdictions even when those jurisdictions do not offer reciprocal protection to UK entities”.
The society suggests that this is remedied in the Bill. There are similar points there. Obviously, the noble Lord, Lord Young, went into much more detail, but that is the underlying concern in all of this.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, Amendments 2 and 5 address various points in relation to the qualification criteria in the Bill. I will first turn to Amendment 2, which would change the definition of qualifying country in relation to the meaning of “original” in Section 213(4) of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.
The amendment would change the definition to the United Kingdom and European Economic Area. In practice, that will mean adding Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway to what is currently proposed and removing a number of countries—I hope that noble Lords will bear with me and not succumb to slumber as I read the whole list. Those that would be removed are: Anguilla, Bermuda, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Channel Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Hong Kong, Isle of Man, Montserrat, New Zealand, the Pitcairn Islands, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands, St Helena and Dependencies, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands and the Turks and the Caicos Islands.
The amendment would mean that the geographical areas used in the definition of “commonplace”, which is under debate here, and “qualifying country”, which is in Section 217(3) of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, would be different. This would create an anomaly in the Act and a level of complexity, which the Bill, on principle, is trying to remove.
I would like to pick up on some points that the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, made because he asked for and deserves a more substantive answer on the reasoning behind the decisions that we made. Aligning the geographical coverage and qualification is a logical harmonisation. Legal rights should be subject to the same eligibility tests wherever they arise. Otherwise, examples of unfairness would occur. It will make it easier for a person to know whether they qualify for an unregistered design right and it will help to resolve disputes more quickly. It will be easier for businesses and users to understand how they can qualify for an unregistered design right.
Furthermore, I want to explain why the Government were consulting on changing the definition of “commonplace”, as in Clause 1, to cover the whole of the EEA, even though the Bill is only amending coverage in the EU. Following the consultation and on further reflection, the Government came to the conclusion that an additional layer of complexity to the law would be created in the eligibility criteria for design right if the geographical areas were different for the definition of “qualifying country” and for “commonplace” to which the noble Lord alluded.
Similarly, Amendment 5 would introduce a new definition. It proposes a change to the requirements for businesses that qualify for unregistered design right, specifying that the business must have,
“a real and effective industrial or commercial establishment”,
in any qualifying country.
The current definition of a business that qualifies for the UK unregistered design right includes the requirement that it must carry on a,
“‘substantial business activity’” in a qualifying country”.
The term “substantial business activity” is already used elsewhere in the Act—for example, for qualification criteria for copyright performances in Section 206. The term is not defined in the Act, but does not appear to have been the subject of significant case law, which suggests that the term has not caused problems in practice.
Although the wording suggested in Amendment 5 has its basis in EU law, the Government believe that to introduce this term into UK law could create confusion and uncertainty about the qualification criteria for unregistered design rights. The Bill is trying, where possible, to reduce complexity in the law. The Government believe that these amendments would lead to additional complexity, not reduce it.
The noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, asked whether there was a definition of “commonplace”. There is no statutory definition in terms of its meaning. However, the word “commonplace” has to be tested objectively in the design field in question. The case of Fulton v Totes puts a gloss on the meaning of the territorial extent of “commonplace”, suggesting that the UK market is relevant. Therefore, the Bill seeks to clarify the territorial scope of the definition of commonplace and align it with qualification requirements. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for his contribution, which, in a much more succinct manner, referred to the two key objectives—if we could achieve them—of coherence and ensuring that this legislation does not lead to a UK-business disadvantage. I thank the Minister for his reply but, given the range of his response, I wondered whether, in relation to the criteria that one is trying to establish—not making things more complex than they already are—any registered or unregistered design right had ever emanated from the Pitcairn Islands. No doubt the Bill team can give us that information at some point.
To be serious, we will reflect on the Minister’s answers and, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
Noble Lords will be relieved to know that this will be a much briefer contribution.
In their consultation, the Government stated that they would introduce safeguards and transitional provisions for third parties which had commissioned designs, but they failed to do so. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to introduce transitional provisions for commissioned designs for a period of six months after the Act comes into force. Clause 22 allows transitional provisions to be brought forward, but this is an issue of considerable concern in the design community and it seems right for this provision to be in the Bill.
In the consultation document, the Government raised the question of whether there should be “statutory” safeguards for commissioners for a transition period. Why the change? Why not have this on the face of the Bill? The consultation document also acknowledges the concerns about changing the status quo and says that,
“the IPO will work with bodies representing and promoting designers, as well as IP legal advisers to publicise these and other changes to the law, and their potential impact”.
It expresses the view:
“This should help alleviate some of the concerns about this change in particular”.
Can the Minister say what progress has been made with this laudable initiative and with whom the IPO has been working, and can he give us an assessment of the IPO’s success in alleviating the concerns that it recognises exist in this area? If this work has not yet started, can he outline the proposed programme and the time it will be likely to take? I beg to move.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, I have one question for the noble Viscount. In legislating to effect this change, how does he intend to secure the position of people who have commissioned designs? They have invested capital and made an important personal commitment to commissioning a design. In future, the design right of that design is to be vested in the designer and not the commissioner. I do not object to that in principle but I should be grateful if he would clarify how the commissioners’ interests are to be secured in this new situation. Is it to be by way of contract between the commissioner and the person he employs? If so, what ought the commissioner to stipulate in the contract of his employee? However, supposing that the designer is freelance or an independent contractor, how strong will be the protection for the entrepreneur who has commissioned the design and whose interests I think none of us would want to see neglected?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, Amendments 3 and 9 address the transitional provisions associated with the changes to ownership of designs, as set out in Clauses 2 and 6.
I will first turn to Amendment 3, which seeks to amend Clause 2 on ownership of unregistered designs. The clause as drafted changes the default ownership requirement for commissioned designs from the commissioner to the designer, as the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, emphasised. The clause does not apply retrospectively, and designs created before commencement are therefore not caught by the change in the law.
In addition, an exception is made for designs created after the commencement date but under a contract that was entered into before the date of commencement. This recognises that certain enabling contracts would have been entered into before the change in the law and reflects the legal conditions in existence at the time. The Government believe that these exceptions will protect existing contracts and provide businesses currently entering into contracts with adequate time to adjust to the law.
The Government also recognise that this change is significant for the design industry and that raising awareness will be important. I hope to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Young, and all noble Lords that the Government will therefore work with stakeholders to ensure that they are aware of the change before the law comes into force. The Government will ensure that there is sufficient time to educate businesses before the commencement of this clause.
Amendment 9 proposes similar transitional arrangements in respect of Clause 6, relating to ownership of registered designs. The Bill includes provisions in Clause 22 that are broad enough to permit appropriate transitional arrangements to be put in place as and when the relevant parts of the Bill are enacted. These can be used in relation to Clause 6, and the Government therefore believe that this amendment is not necessary.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, or perhaps it was the noble Lord, Lord Young, asked what progress was being made in educating business. My officials have been working with stakeholders such as design and legal representatives for some time. We will continue to work through them as we take the Bill forward.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, raised an important point about how one might protect the commissioner, as opposed to the default position of the designer. In response to the issue of whether the commissioner should own the rights automatically, we believe that ownership should be a matter of contract. The noble Lord is correct. It is a matter that businesses should decide upon as they commission designs.
As to the matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, regarding the commissioner being a sole trader, perhaps he could clarify his point.
Lord Howarth of Newport
I was trying to probe as to whether there was some distinction between the position of a designer who is employed by the commissioner and the position of an outside contractor whom the commissioner contracts to produce a design. In either case, we must be concerned to ensure that the legitimate interests of the commissioner are not neglected in this transition so that the design rights do not in future lie with the commissioner but with the designer.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
The noble Lord again makes a good point. The default position is that it is down to the wording of the contract. However, having said that, I will write to the noble Lord to clarify what further protections there might be for the commissioners. As a matter of clarification, where a designer is employed, the employer will be the owner of the design. I hope that, in the mean time, this provides sufficient reassurance to the noble Lords, Lord Young and Lord Stevenson. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Young, to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I thank those who have participated in the debate. My noble friend Lord Howarth raised an interesting point about the balance of rights between the commissioner and the designer. We have had some explanation from the Minister, but I welcome the fact that he will write to us, too. The Minister also talked about working with stakeholders to ensure greater understanding in this area. Again, we would welcome more details of the nature of that work. I do not necessarily expect the noble Viscount to have the answer here, but perhaps he could let us know. Finally, we have been talking about contracts. Is there potential for an unfair contracts Act in relation to what we have been discussing? With those questions, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) For section 259 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (joint designs) substitute—
“Joint designs
(1) Where two or more persons have jointly developed a design, design right shall vest in them jointly.
(2) Where two or more persons are proprietors of unregistered design right or community unregistered design right, then, subject to the provisions of this section and subject to any agreement to the contrary—
(a) each of them shall be entitled, by himself or his agents, to do in respect of the design concerned, for his own benefit and without the consent of or the need to account to the other or others, any act which would apart from this subsection, amount to an infringement of the design right concerned; and(b) any such act shall not amount to an infringement of the design right or unregistered community design right concerned.(3) Subject to any agreement for the time being in force, where two or more persons are proprietors of design right or unregistered community design right one of them shall not without the consent of the other or others grant a licence under the design right or assign or mortgage a share in the design right or in Scotland cause or permit security to be granted over it.
(4) Where an article is disposed of by any of two or more proprietors of unregistered design right to any person, that person and any other person claiming through him shall be entitled to deal with the article in the same way as if it had been disposed of by a sole proprietor.””
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, this is more in the nature of a helpful suggestion than a probing amendment, although I would be grateful for comments from the Minister when he responds.
In their response to their consultation process, the Government rejected an earlier proposal to amend the Registered Designs Act 1949 to incorporate joint ownership provisions similar to those provided for unregistered design rights in the CDPA. However, they highlighted a related issue about how joint ownership should be treated and enforced and said that they would give greater consideration to the idea of introducing provisions similar to those that exist for patents, which would allow one party to exploit the design independently of the other. However, the Bill does not contain this provision, even though the consultation document states that the Government see merit in the proposal and that they intend to explore the option further. Will the noble Viscount explain what is happening? Is exploration continuing? If so, where have the intrepid explorers reached? May we have a status report on progress? To save a lot of time and fruitless further exploration, our amendment, which is loosely based on Section 36 of the Patents Act 1977, would, if accepted, introduce these provisions. We would like to debate whether the Government are now in a position to consider moving on this.
At present, the joint owners of a patent can each work the invention separately from the others, whereas joint owners of copyright cannot. There is no clarity as regards UK registered designs on this point. For unregistered design rights, Section 259 of the CDPA deals with joint designs and states:
“In this Part a ‘joint design’ means a design produced by the collaboration of two or more designers in which the contribution of each is not distinct from that of the other or others … References in this Part to the designer of a design shall, except as otherwise provided, be construed in relation to a joint design as references to all designers of the design”.
This would be helpful, although I think that in practice it means that the permission of all design rights owners are needed before one can exploit a design, which might be somewhat unsatisfactory and may need further consideration. Again, I would be grateful for the Minister’s response on that point. With that, I beg to move.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, the suggested amendments to Clauses 2 and 6 would introduce detailed requirements to set out the legal position for joint owners. The proposed provisions would apply to unregistered and registered designs.
As noble Lords will be aware, the Government’s design consultation asked stakeholders whether the Registered Designs Act 1949 should be amended to incorporate joint ownership provisions similar to those already provided for unregistered design rights in the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Although most respondents agreed with this in principle, responses were mixed when it came to the question of whether it was necessary. A number of well respected intellectual property judges who responded to the consultation suggested that existing provisions were sufficient to allow for joint ownership. In light of this and our exploration activities, the Government decided not to change the law in this area.
In addition to our considering it unnecessary at this time to change the law on the issue, there is a legal reason why we cannot accept the amendment tabled by the noble Lord. The amendments as drafted seek to amend or reproduce EU design rights. This is not possible under EU law, as EU regulations directly apply here and the ability of member states to take action is limited. As a result, it would not be possible for the Government to accept these amendments even if they wished to. In light of this, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for his response. I think we are agreed in principle that this is something that would be desirable but, contrary to earlier debates and discussions, he feels that the points made by the judges in responses are sufficient and that there is a way round this. I suspect that that is because he is relying on European legislative procedures, and that point is noted.
I accept that what we are proposing may not be satisfactory in relation to that but it still does not remove a lacuna in terms of the provisions for simplification of the processes that the Minister said were at the heart of the Bill. Having said that, I do not wish to pursue this further at the moment and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones
I make a brief intervention to give notice to the Minister that I intend to raise this at a future stage in the Bill. This matter came to my attention rather late in the day and I do not expect him to respond at this moment.
There is concern about the breadth of the definition in Clause 4, particularly proposed new Section 224A(b) with regard to,
“an act which is done for experimental purposes”.
The corresponding section in the Patents Act 1977 provides further clarification of what,
“done for experimental purposes”,
means. It relates to the subject matter of the invention. Proposed new Section 244A(c)(ii) should also clarify what “mention” and “source” mean.
A better proposal might be,
“the owner of the design right is identified during the teaching or as part of the citation as the case may be”.
It should be up to the person relying on his defence to prove that the owner of the design right was probably identified.
Unless the Minister writes to me in the mean time, I will probably raise these issues on Report. Again, I am indebted to the Law Society and I declare an interest.
“( ) In subsection (1), after paragraph (a) insert—
“(aa) in pursuance of an assignment or licence made or granted by a person who is the proprietor of unregistered design right or unregistered Community design right in a corresponding unregistered design or unregistered Community Design.””
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, again, this is a probing amendment that emanates from points made in the response provided by the Government to the extensive consultation carried out before the Bill was prepared. Section 53 of the CDPA currently states that acts carried out with the permission of the owner of a UK registered design do not infringe any artistic copyright that might also exist in the article in question. The Government are extending this to community designs but not to unregistered designs. The question therefore is: why is this happening? Can the noble Viscount explain why this decision has been taken and what its implications are?
It is worth recording that the proposal to apply the approach that I have just outlined to the unregistered design right was opposed by a number of respondents. The CIPA stated:
“Firstly, UDR and UK copyright are more or less mutually exclusive at present, so there is no real need for the provision. Secondly, we think it should refer only to registered designs and not unregistered designs, since the presumption arises from the public register which acts as prima facie proof of title”.
The ITMA stated that,
“a registered design is a monopoly right and unless successfully challenged on the basis of an earlier right such as copyright, remains a monopoly. This does not apply to unregistered designs so extension appears inappropriate”.
For completeness, the Government’s response states:
“Given the inherent distinction between UK unregistered right and UK copyright, it is not appropriate to extend the defence to cover UK unregistered right. The alternative of including the EU unregistered right within the defence would seem to add another point of difference, and therefore complexity, in dealing with UK and EU rights. Taking these points into consideration and, as another response mentioned, that the current defence arises through the public register which acts as prima facie proof of title, the Government does not intend to extend the defence to cover any unregistered rights”.
This is a not uncomplicated area and I therefore appeal to the Minister to provide the necessary clarity and lightness that will allow us to follow it through.
However, I should point out that the City of London Law Society, perhaps stimulated by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, who may wish to speak on this point, referred to the possibility of split ownership in relation to this issue. Indeed, the IP judges who we quoted earlier said that:
“The Consultation asks if there is any reason why section 53 should be extended to unregistered design right, but does not ask if there is any reason why not. Why should the logic be different, at least if UK unregistered design right continues to be substantively different to Community unregistered design right?”,
which of course it would under the Bill.
It seems that there is something in this. It can be unclear whether a design falls to be protected by copyright or unregistered design right. The boundary turns in part on whether the design is for an “artistic work” or for something other than an artistic work, which is rather a narrow point of difference. Identifying whether something is an artistic work such as a sculpture, which, as we now know, does not include a stormtrooper helmet from the “Star Wars” films but which might, I am told, include toy soldiers, engravings—including car floor mats—and works of artistic craftsmanship is a concept over which there is much confusion. This illustrates the points behind the difficulty here.
Section 236 of the CDPA states it is no infringement of UDR to do an act which infringes copyright. If ownership is in the same hands and a person has permission to use the unregistered design right but it turns out that the design is an artistic work, they infringe—although a court might fashion an implied licence with respect to copyright. If the ownership is in different hands, the same problem might arise and there would be no possibility of such a licence. The matter varies, too, with whether Community unregistered design rights are involved. Here there is a closer overlap, as there is no equivalent of Section 236 since a person can infringe both copyright and Community unregistered design right at the same time. One could imagine a grant of a licence to use Community UDR and then issues arising as to copyright infringement, especially as copyright remains national in character and ownership is more readily divided. We would be grateful if the Minister can steer us through some of the issues here and explain why the Government took the view they have. I beg to move.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, the amendment seeks to provide an exemption against accusations of infringement of UK artistic copyright for UK and EU unregistered designs. Currently, Clause 5 extends the exemption only to registered Community designs. The amendment concerns the complex issue, which the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, alluded to, of the balance between the rights of the assignee and the interests of the copyright holder. In general, the copyright holder is entitled to assert his rights against any infringement. However, Section 53 overrides that ability but is currently restricted to registered rights. The exemption is restricted to registered rights because they are in the public domain and therefore already open to public scrutiny and challenge, including by the copyright holder.
The exemption does not include unregistered rights because they are not open to public scrutiny in the same way, there is no official register of rights and therefore copyright holders do not have the same opportunity to see what rights are being claimed and to challenge those rights when they deem necessary. In light of this, the Government do not believe it is appropriate to provide an equivalent exemption of the kind suggested by this amendment.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked whether we should just extend this clause to unregistered rights anyway. In addition to the public policy reasons already elaborated upon, there are also difficulties in ensuring that the exception is being applied correctly. For example, one of the conditions is that the person relying on the exception has to be acting in good faith on the basis of the registration. There is no registration for unregistered designs, so this condition cannot be fulfilled.
As a general point on the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, Professor Hargreaves in his review of intellectual property identified the complexity of the designs legal landscape as a problem for business. There is an overlap between UK artistic copyright, which covers photographs, sculptures and paintings, and registered design, but sometimes permission is given to use one and not the other. The defence makes sure that businesses that have permission to use a registered design can defend themselves against accusations of infringement of UK artistic copyright. The noble Lord is correct that it is a complex area. I do not know whether I have shed any light on the matter but I ask him to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for his comments. When we were debating some of the Hargreaves exceptions in the ERR Bill, I was at pains to try to draw out the Minister on various issues raised of a popular culture mode. In the exception on parody, I was able to suggest to him that he needed to update his knowledge of Gangnam issues. I almost demonstrated to him, but of course Hansard is not very good at picking that up. However, I still treasure the moment. I did not get much of a response and therefore thought that today I would try a different angle with a “Star Wars” reference, but again I am afraid he did not pick it up.
The “Star Wars” case was fascinating because it wound its way up through the various levels on what seemed to be a narrow point about whether you could claim that the helmet—I see the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, nodding in his place; I am sure he would be able to enlighten us further on this point—created for the stormtroopers in “Star Wars” was simply a registered design or a sculpture. Coming from a film background, I can imagine even props as being of extreme artistic importance, and I can take the point both ways. I do not think the Minister responded to my jibe that this might be enough to get him going, so perhaps he can write to me.
I understand that the unifying theme here, if there is one, is that the Government wish to go with the market, as it were, reflect the UDR as the decision of choice of most designers and make that regime as simple as possible. As I have said several times, we are not doing our overall regime enough service if we ignore some of the points of comparability and dissonance that exist between registered designs and unregistered rights and the Community moves that are going forward. I would be grateful if the Minister could write to me on this point because this is something to which we might wish to return. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, in moving Amendment 10, I shall refer to Amendments 12 and 19 as well. Amendment 10 is quite simple. We would leave out subsection (3), which gives a Henry VIII power to the Secretary of State to amend the Act by order. Amendment 12 would implement the Delegated Powers Committee recommendation but goes slightly wider by requiring all orders under Clause 8 to be subject to affirmative procedure. Amendment 19 would also implement the Delegated Powers Committee recommendation, but it goes further by requiring all statutory instruments to be subject to the affirmative procedure. This was referred to in the recent report from the committee.
These amendments were laid before we had sight of that DPRR committee report, but the committee has drawn our attention to the Henry VIII powers contained in this Bill and, as good democrats, we should be careful of approving such powers without good reason. Indeed, the committee went a little further, saying that it would,
“expect to see some justification for the negative procedure”,
that the Government are proposing.
The committee is sceptical of the case put forward by the Government, saying that it detects,
“some inconsistency of approach between what is said in paragraph 8 of the memorandum and the explanations given in paragraphs 25 and 35 about the choice of … powers”.
It would be good to hear the Minister clear up that ambiguity.
The rest of the group, which we share with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, reflects the recommendation of the Delegated Powers Committee and proposes its solution to the issue, which is that it considers the case for negative procedure has not been made for orders under proposed new Section 15ZA, and that the affirmative procedure should apply instead. I look forward to the comments to be made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and beg to move.
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Young, has encapsulated the argument pretty well. It merely takes a reading of the report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee to see that, although on slightly different bases and for rather different reasons, it is not happy at all with negative procedure for either Clause 8 or Clause 11. In addition to the amendments tabled between us, I have some sympathy with Amendment 10 as well. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to give either convincing reasons for continuing with the negative procedure or will accept the fact that the committee has delivered a pretty strong opinion, particularly in terms of being able to amend primary legislation, and that therefore he will accept or put forward his own amendments to change it to the affirmative procedure in the case of both clauses. Simply reading the committee’s report is pretty persuasive by itself.
Lord Howarth of Newport
When the Minister comes to reply in a second, will he give the Committee some indication of the volume of order-making that he anticipates? If these orders are to be subject to the affirmative procedure, will we be meeting every Tuesday and Thursday afternoon?
Baroness Whitaker
I add to noble Lords’ wariness of this power. I have a particular question. It seems to me that a sweeping power like this is particularly inappropriate when, as the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said, we must create a balance between protection and innovation. It is very hard to achieve that by a virtual fiat by the state. Why in this case does he want this power?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, Amendments 10, 11 and 12 would require regulations made under the power of Clause 8 to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. In addition, Amendments 18 and 19 would require regulations under the power of Clause 11 to be subject to the affirmative procedure.
Noble Lords will have had the opportunity to consider the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which was published on 6 June. While the committee accepted the majority of the delegated powers included in the Bill, the report recommended that the powers included in Clause 8, which concerns the Hague agreement, and Clause 11, which relates to the design opinions service, should require the affirmative procedure. I very much welcome the committee’s report and the time that its members have dedicated to scrutinising this Bill. The work of the committee is very important in ensuring that the implications of legislation are fully considered, and I wish to put on the record how much I value its detailed consideration of the Bill.
The report was published only two sitting days ago, so I hope that noble Lords will allow me a little more time to discuss with my colleagues across government the committee’s very worthy proposals in the appropriate level of detail that the report deserves. I have listened very carefully to all comments made this afternoon by noble Lords and I am certain that this issue will be returned to on Report.
The noble Lord, Lord Young, asked why there was a difference of approach with regard to negative versus affirmative resolutions. Traditionally, regulations in design law have been commenced by negative resolution, including in relation to a similar international agreement—namely, the Madrid protocol, which the noble Lord may be aware of. However, at this current time, I hope that I have given certain reassurances and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I welcome the assurance given by the Minister. In the circumstances, it is perfectly reasonable that he requires a bit more time, and I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) The Secretary of State will, within six months of the Act coming into force, report to both Houses of Parliament on plans to publicise changes to the law introduced under this provision and help educate holders of design rights.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, this follows on from the discussion that we have been having in relation to the willingness of the Government for the United Kingdom to join, in its own right, the Hague agreement. It refers to the fact that in the consultation process the majority of respondents were in favour of the UK becoming a member of the Hague agreement in its own right. In a sense, that is very good because, as I understand it, the Hague agreement will be a very effective way of progressing the ability of those who originate materials and wish to earn from them to secure that right across territories and, increasingly, across the world, as the agreement is not limited to the United Kingdom or indeed to the European Union. Therefore, it is an important step.
However, as was pointed out by one of the respondents, the UK simply joining the agreement in its own right may not be sufficient to take the trick in this area, as the agreement is very little known and there would be a steep learning curve. The Government agree that there is work to be done here and they have confirmed that the IPO will work with a range of interested parties to publicise these and other changes to the law. Our amendment would put a little weight behind that by giving the Government a six-month window in which to get their show on the road.
As with a previous amendment, I wonder whether the Minister could put some flesh on what the IPO intends to do. I understand from some of the documentation we have seen that there is regular contact with designers, representatives of the design professions, and legal and other advisers. However, this is something where a bit more hearts-and-minds activity is required, and it would be very helpful if, in responding, the Minister could, as I said, put some flesh on that by explaining what is going to happen on the ground. I beg to move.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Stevenson for raising what I think the Committee will agree is a very important issue. Intellectual property law is infernally complex and difficult. It is labyrinthine, as my noble friend remarked a little earlier this afternoon. For the businesses that the Government rightly seek to assist through this legislation, there are real difficulties in understanding the law.
It is of course a long-standing principle that ignorance of the law is no excuse. However, the department will of course want to facilitate a good understanding of the law. It would be helpful if the noble Viscount would unfold his thinking to us about how this is actually to happen. Does the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills have the address of every business in this country, including sole traders and the myriad little businesses that come and go, perhaps entering different incarnations, which are very hard for anybody to trace? Of course he does not. Perhaps he expects them to have recourse to the websites of the business department and the IPO: is it envisaged that those websites should provide an encyclopaedic account of intellectual property law? I imagine it is not, although I am sure that the IPO, not least through the opinion service that this Bill legislates for, will always do its best to help people to understand the law as it may apply in their circumstances, and to know what opportunities the law creates for them.
My noble friend referred to the design professions and their representatives. However, I do not think anybody can be confident that the design professions necessarily represent perfectly everybody who practises in the relevant fields. Hard-pressed business people operating from day to day will often find it pretty difficult to know the rules of these very complex games. This debate is useful because government ought always to reflect on the practical impact of their legislation on those whose lives and businesses it will affect. As I noticed and readily acknowledge, the purpose here is to give assistance to business. However, the task of enabling small traders to steer their way through this labyrinth, small and medium-sized enterprises in particular, is massive. I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling this amendment and look forward very much to the Minister telling us a bit more about how the Government see this working in practice.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, this amendment would place a duty on the Secretary of State under this provision to report to both Houses of Parliament six months after the commencement of the Bill. The aim of the report would be to notify Parliament what plans the Government had put in place to educate business users about the changes to the law this clause brings about.
I agree with what I believe is the principle behind this amendment: that when changes to the law are made which could impact on businesses or consumers, the Government should provide guidance to users. The Government have already engaged with all key stakeholders through their consultations on the changes now set out in the Bill. I am grateful for the words from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, who mentioned that he was aware of this.
This engagement continues as the Bill progresses through Parliament. In addition, the Government will be producing a plain English guide to the Bill, particularly aimed at small and medium-sized businesses, which will be issued before Report. The Intellectual Property Office continues to work through the representative bodies for the design sector to ensure that their members have the guidance they need on the new legislation, if it comes into force.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked how we can further penetrate the myriad businesses that may be affected. In the letters that we have pledged to write, we will add some information on publicity and distribution, which I hope will be helpful. He also asked further about this issue. I can reassure him that over the past year, almost 18,000 businesses benefited from face-to-face advice from the Intellectual Property Office, which also used online engagement extensively. I am proud to say, as the IP Minister, that it now has 18,000 Twitter followers, more than any other intellectual property office in the world.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked whether we could provide more information on what plans there were to educate as well as to inform business. These plans will build on the extensive work that the Intellectual Property Office already carries out through its business outreach programme and through schemes such as the training for business advisers across the UK. I hope these answers help to give some substantive responses to the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth.
The Intellectual Property Office, on behalf of government, already reports on the support and guidance that it provides to businesses through its annual corporate report and chief executive’s report. Therefore, the Government are not persuaded that a commitment to Parliament to report on this specific area of business support needs to be set out in the Bill. Accordingly, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for his contribution and my noble friend Lord Howarth for making additional points in relation to the proposal in the amendment. Behind this short debate lurks the proposal later in the Bill to have an annual report to Parliament on IP work, and it is helpful that the Minister finished on that point. To anticipate that debate, we will be arguing that to draw the report in the rather narrow terms currently specified in the Bill may be too tight, so perhaps we can come back to this issue when we get to that clause because the recent exchange gave us examples of that. It would be helpful to have a better understanding of how engagement with the wider group involved in the creative industries and in design, in particular, is going. Simply reporting on the economy and growth will not get across that engagement in sufficient detail, so this may be something to which we will return.
This matter also raises whether, as was argued during our discussions on the ERR Bill, having an IP Minister is sufficient in relation to intellectual property work and the support of the creative industries more generally or whether something more grandiose than even a noble Viscount, such as a tsar, will be required. I can see the noble Viscount reaching out across Whitehall and drawing things together much in the style of the films of Eisenstein.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I was not going to mention Ivan the Terrible in particular, but there are other tsars of recent memory who would have been as effective, without necessarily all the killing, in getting people to understand what is important about intellectual property and in thrilling them with the opportunities that I am sure will flow from the Hague agreement.
The idea that somehow the IPO, however many thousands of Twitter followers it has, can do this with 140 characters per tweet does not fill me with enthusiasm. This needs engagement on a much greater scale, as has been mentioned. We will return to this issue, so I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, this is a probing amendment and it perhaps goes from the sublime to the ridiculous in the sense that we are moving from the sunny uplands of growth and the contribution to our economy that will flow from a better understanding of the creative industries, better engagement and the recruitment of people to work in them to questions about whether design form DF12A should include a statement indicating whether any associated unregistered design right has been assigned by the same assignee. There is a point in this, again, emerging from the consultation process.
In the consultation, suggestions were made that the relevant form should include a statement indicating whether any associated unregistered design right had been assigned to the same assignee. There was also a suggestion that it might require an assertion about whether the assignment of a registered right to a non-resident national or a non-reciprocating country would also extinguish an unregistered design right, which would be a further step. These are aspects of a debate we have been having throughout this afternoon’s sitting of the Committee in which we are trying to understand better what makes people wish to use the UK unregistered design right and not the UK registered design right. There are good reasons, we have heard them and, to a certain extent, I think we understand them, but it is still intriguing how, by the backdoor, a copyright-style approach has become the preferred choice. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, gave us the figures earlier.
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, it may seem somewhat of an anticlimax to come to these two amendments after visions of tsars and Alexander Nevsky crossing the ice, and so on. However, Amendment 15 is rather elegant, and I support it in principle. My friends at the Law Society would certainly find it an elegant solution. They say, under Clause 9(1), that the assignment of an unregistered right—very much as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, put it—
“need not follow the corresponding registered right (as is currently the case). The Bill should clarify whether the unregistered right is assigned to the same party, at registration of the assignment of the registered right. This will mean that under the new regime businesses can check whether an unregistered right has also been assigned to the same owner as the registered right, or whether they need to be aware of an unregistered right lying elsewhere”.
Amendment 15 achieves that aim. It is an extremely useful instrument, which would mean that there would be no doubt in future as to where the respective rights lie. It would be a source of some confusion if that was not known. This is a very interesting solution to something that will otherwise cause problems in future.
Lord Borrie
It seems slightly strange, to put this to my noble friend, that legislation which may have been in existence for many years specifies a particular form and what it should contain. That does not seem very appropriate.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, Amendments 14 and 15 relate to the role of the registrar. I will first address Amendment 14, which would remove a power granted to the Secretary of State to specify circumstances where a document could not be inspected online, and the discretion in considering such cases.
Clause 9 is designed to allow users to access information on registered designs electronically whenever they want to—an idea fully supported by businesses in the recent consultation. There may indeed be circumstances in which publication of documents could cause harm, and it is in the interests of applicants to apply an exception in such cases. An example might be where material is commercially sensitive or otherwise confidential. Such exceptions are best made explicit in rules because they can be changed more easily and quickly to reflect the needs of business. The report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee made no recommendations for changes in relation to the clause.
The power to make such changes will be limited to the circumstances that arise in this clause—for example, if the registrar’s opinion disparages any person in a way that is likely to cause harm or if material were considered immoral or likely to cause offence. This power will be subject to the general requirements of administrative law, and the scope of any rules relating to the registrar’s capacity to withhold electronic publication of documents will be subject to consultation.
I turn now to Amendment 15, which introduces a specific modification to an official form. It allows the registrar to give directions specifying that the form shall include a statement indicating whether or not any associated unregistered design right has been assigned to the same assignee. The Government recognise that this requirement might encourage businesses involved in such assignments to consider ownership of all the potential rights associated with their design, and it may help third parties to more readily track any changes in unregistered designs.
However, Amendment 15 places an additional burden on those seeking to register an assignment by requiring them to go through additional checks on the status of the unregistered design, to establish whether the unregistered right still exists or has expired, and whether it has previously been assigned to a different party. It could, in fact, delay updating the register if those details needed to be checked. Part of the rationale for removing Section 19(3A) was for records to be kept up to date more easily. It does not seem appropriate to require additional information to be supplied instead.
I hope that noble Lords agree that the sobriquet “Ivan the Terrible” does not entirely fit my character. The Intellectual Property Office is always seeking to provide the best service it can to its customers, which includes the amendment and deletion of official forms where these are proposed to the office. This is why Clause 12 on the use of directions removes the requirement to use secondary legislation in relation to forms and instead enables the use of directions, thereby mirroring existing powers relating to similar procedural matters for both patents and trade marks. To refer in the Act to a form in the manner described would undermine the purpose of Clause 12 and the wishes of stakeholders.
However, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised the issue of the huge majority of rights that are unregistered, which is a fair point. Perhaps there needs to be a better register with greater information included. We welcome these comments. We believe that as far as possible the register should provide more information. As the noble Lord knows, there is a balance to be struck between this and not placing too much burden on business.
In the context of these comments, I hope that the noble Lord feels able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for his support for my second amendment. My noble friend Lord Borrie warned me that he was going to raise this point, so I was not surprised and he is of course right. In an attempt to focus on an issue, we have become too specific in the amendment and I would accept the noble Viscount’s rebuke.
Nevertheless, there is an understanding, certainly in relation to the second amendment, Amendment 15, that there is a balance to be made that will be most effective and helpful in terms of those who wish to understand better where the rights lie in relation to an invention or design and the bureaucratic necessity that would follow. I am a little sad that the IPO felt, on balance, that the voluntary system, which could have helped to build up a register of some robustness and depth, was not taken up. However, I recognise that this is probably not the time to discuss that. Indeed, if we are to return to this issue, as we will at some time, we can further consider the matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, this concerns a relatively minor point and it is certainly a probing amendment, to which I am sure the Minister will have no difficulty in making a response.
When reading the consultation process, we were intrigued to discover that the Government had consulted widely on whether appeal routes could be considered within existing systems largely through the patents county court or whether there was some value in transferring appeals to the High Court. This amendment is intended to probe that decision and to ask the Minister to respond a little more on it.
With the welcome news that a small but important part of the unified patent court will, it is hoped, be located in the United Kingdom and perhaps in more than one location, it would be to the public benefit if those who practised at this Bar or who were judges in the Bar were able to gain the maximum exposure to the issues that are likely to arise during consideration of the various points that will be routed through this legal process. My first point is simply a general feeling that more expertise should be spread around and that more people should be engaged, and that therefore cutting out the patents county court seems a rather odd decision.
Secondly, there is also a need to raise more public understanding on this matter. When court cases that involve these issues are picked up, they sometimes, as we discussed in relation to an earlier amendment, catch the public eye. That can sometimes help to get people interested in this whole area and stimulate them to become more involved. That is another reason for tabling the amendment.
Thirdly, we heard in earlier discussions, and when we were discussing this matter with the Minister, that the Bar is currently quite small and the court’s activities quite narrow. Therefore, the more court cases in which it is involved will gradually make this more of a sustainable option.
All those things suggest that perhaps ruling out, de facto, the available route for taking appeals through to the PCC system is a little short-sighted. We may not have the correct process or procedure here—we are not legal experts in this department—but we wonder whether there is an issue here that might need further consideration. I beg to move.
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, the amendment put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, is of considerable interest. The very welcome aim and objective of Clause 10 is clearly to provide the most cost-effective and quick alternative for appealing against a registrar’s opinion and for distinguishing between matters of law and fact and so on. It is very interesting to suggest that it is the patents county court that would specifically deal with that, because that would meet the need for a point of law to be referred to the court in a cost-effective way. Rather like the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I do not know what the practicality of that is, but I certainly hope that the Minister will explore the suggestion because it seems to be consistent with the aims of the rest of Clause 10.
It is certainly interesting that Clause 10 has been constructed, as I understand it, very much in the way that current trade marks appeals against the registrar’s decisions are made, and that seems to commend it. What I do not know is whether the trade marks legislation refers to the High Court or whether there is some other route for a legal point to be determined on appeal in trade mark cases.
Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe
I, too, support this amendment. Without condescending to personalities, the prestige of the patents county court is now a good deal higher than it was at an earlier stage. It certainly undertakes work just as demanding as the Patents Court in the High Court.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, we understand that this is a probing amendment. It would introduce the patents county court as an alternative appeals body to the High Court and the appointed person. Clause 10 reproduces the appeal routes for the IPO’s decisions in relation to trade marks, which have proved to be very effective and popular. This system provides two routes of appeal, one low cost and one high cost, for those who wish to appeal a decision of the registrar.
On the face of it, the patents county court would introduce another relatively low-cost appeal route. However, although fees are about £135, use of the PCC may involve legal representation, so it is not always the case that this would be a low-cost route of appeal compared with the High Court. In contrast, the cost to business of using the appointed person is currently zero. In addition, because the appointed person is a relatively informal route, businesses have traditionally, in the trade mark field, represented themselves. This means they also avoid the additional legal costs that might be incurred if they went through the PCC or the High Court. In cases sufficiently important to warrant appeal to a court, the Government believe that the PCC offers less flexibility to businesses than the High Court because it places limits on costs that may be recovered and limits hearings to two days. It is likely that this would be too restrictive in complex cases or cases requiring cross-examination. Introducing the PCC as a third route of appeal does not appear to add significant benefits; rather, it simply appears to add another layer of complexity in the decision-making process for business. Therefore, the Government are not convinced that adding this other route of appeal would serve a useful purpose. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank those who spoke in support of this amendment and, in particular, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe, who made his first contribution in the Committee. I was glad that the Minister recognised that what we are trying to do is simply to explore the possibility of building on that which is there. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Walker, made the point that this court is gaining in stature, so there is evidence to suggest that what I am proposing would be effective in building a little bit more on to that.
The principal argument that the Minister used was that it would not necessarily be a low-cost route because it might have to involve legal representation. In reflecting on this debate, I hope he will think again about that because there will be some people who will want to have a low-cost route, and in that context it seems that a court that has set out from the start to say that it will not sit for more than two days and that it will limit costs is rather a good thing, not something to be scorned in trying to ensure that efficiency and effectiveness are used in the legal process, but that may be another matter. If there was a way in which it was clear that the route using the PCC was specifically designed for not-complex cases, that would meet our concerns about trying to build up and support it while not risking the very good arguments that have been put forward by the Minister. Perhaps he will reflect on that, and we could see whether there is an accommodating route forward when we come to this on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, in this clause there is a proposal to add a new Section 28A to the Registered Designs Act 1949 to enable the registrar to provide opinions about designs. We and the respondents to the consultation generally welcome this proposal. However, we believe that proposed new subsections 28A(6) and 28A(7) seem to be contradictory. Subsection (6) of the proposed new section seems to say that an opinion is not a decision. If it is, presumably it has no legal force and is therefore not appealable. There is logic in that formulation. However, subsection (7) seems to provide that such opinions are appealable. Why is that? On what grounds are they appealable and to whom? Would a successful appeal change the nature of the opinion? If it had been tested in the courts, it would suggest that it would be different. Can the Minister therefore provide us with some clarification? Our amendment seeks to provide only an opportunity for the noble Viscount to read some suitable words into the record. I beg to move.
Lord Borrie
My Lords, I very much support my noble friend Lord Young. This idea is that having had an opinion service available for some time in relation to patterns, that is now to be brought over to the subject of designs as well. It seems a most useful device, enabling people to get an opinion for what I believe to be a relatively low cost to the applicant. Having that instead of taking legal proceedings or, at any rate, allowing a certain delay until legal proceedings are brought seems most helpful. However, it does not seem to be appropriate when, as the clause specifies, this is not a decision. My noble friend read out the bits of the clause which are relevant to this. It is an opinion; the clause specifies that. It is authoritative because it is coming from a source that ought to know the answer but, by not being a decision, surely it is inappropriate that there should be an appeal. It somehow takes away from the great value of an opinion, which is to give something straightforward in the opinion of the people who ought to know. Having it without an appeal would enable it to be done quite quickly.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, Amendment 17 would remove the right of appeal to an appointed person in respect of opinions given under the design opinions service. The Government believe that the right of appeal is extremely important. In this case, businesses who receive a design opinion from the registrar should have the right to appeal that decision to an appointed person. This ensures that a person who is aggrieved by an opinion is able to get a second view on whether the opinion was arrived at correctly in the first place. In particular, it is an important next step before parties consider formal legal proceedings, which could be time-consuming and costly.
Offering a route of appeal for the design service reflects the principles established in the existing patent opinions service. The patent service has been well used, as has the ability for the opinion to be subject to a review procedure. Furthermore, a right of appeal was considered particularly important in the light of the European Convention on Human Rights: an adverse opinion could affect the value of the right and hence the proprietor’s ability to make use of it in business. It is therefore important to offer an appeal for design opinions to ensure that the necessary safeguards are in place.
Noble Lords commented that the routes of appeal against a decision by the Intellectual Property Office include an additional route of appeal to the High Court. This is because decisions by the IPO can be legally binding and can have an impact on a party’s rights. In contrast, the opinion provided by the opinion service is non-binding—indeed, it is an opinion, as the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, pointed out. That is why in subsection (6) of Clause 11, the proposed new section sets out that:
“An opinion given by the registrar under the regulations is not to be treated as a decision of the registrar for the purposes of section 27A.”
The opinions service is designed to be low cost and non-binding. The route of appeal available—an important principle to uphold, given the underlying economic value of the property right—is also low cost and appropriate to the non-binding nature of the opinion offered to parties. The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, raised an issue of cost. I can reassure the noble Lord that the cost of the service will be subject to compensation. In the mean time, I ask that the noble Lord, Lord Young, withdraws this amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Borrie for reminding us that this is a helpful, low-cost route and further testing whether the wording in the Bill is right. I thank the Minister for the clarification but would ask that he checks the wording to ensure that it does not introduce any ambiguities. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) A court shall take into account when awarding costs and damages whether either party, claimant or defendant in a dispute, has chosen to ignore the opinion given by the registrar.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, this is a continuation in some senses of the debate that we have just had and an attempt to probe a little further about the opinions service. The Minister was clear about what is intended here. My noble friend Lord Young made the point that the wording in the Bill might set people off on the wrong track with its notions of appeal. An appellate position is usually quasi-legal, if not legal, and therefore people will get into the wrong mode if the wording remains as it is. The suggestion might be to reflect a bit more about how this could be expressed in the Bill without setting people off down the wrong track. However, if the Government were minded to accept this amendment, it would certainly become a different beast, and I recognise that.
I am not trying to frighten the horses because it is not our game. The point here is that in the consultation responses a number of respondents expressed concern that some gaming may be involved in the use of the opinions service. That means that large companies might simply utilise the opinions service but ignore it, in the sense that the process of going in to get an opinion from the registrar could be forced on the smaller company or individual designer, who would go to some expense, but not much, to get an opinion from somebody who should know, in the words of my noble friend Lord Borrie, and would take that opinion, which perhaps supported the view that the design was covered by an unregistered design arrangement, or had a copyright, or whatever it is that the registrar would be able to opine on. The designer would go back to the larger company and say, “See, I have evidence now that you have done me a terrible wrong by stealing my design and using it, and I wish to be recompensed for it”. The company would just laugh in the face of that person and go straight to court, raising proceedings that might be very expensive and effectively using economic muscle to get rid of the small designer.
If our amendment were accepted, the judge or the court could take into account when awarding costs and damages whether the defendant or claimant had gone to the registrar and then ignored that opinion. I hope that that is not falling into the trap of giving this a legal status that it does not deserve or has not earned, but it adds teeth to the process, which would be useful to those who had to judge or settle claims in a way that would be effective and could raise the stature of the opinions service in the medium and long term. This is the thinking behind the amendment. The intention is to try to build up and support the opinion service by giving it a bit of steel behind its decisions, but without, I hope, falling into the trap of creating a quasi-legal approach. I beg to move.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, the amendment places a duty on a court to consider a relevant design opinion issued by the Intellectual Property Office if it is awarding costs and damages to a party in a dispute.
The intention of the design opinions service is to provide businesses with access to an impartial view of the strength of their case in a potential design dispute, helping them to decide whether to pursue more formal and potentially costly proceedings. As with the patent opinions service, the Government have established that the service is non-binding. Although, in practice, the opinion may be used as part of a submission to the courts in support of an argument such as expert evidence, it will not hold a legal status. This will help ensure that the courts are not fettered in any subsequent legal actions.
The effect of this amendment would be to change the status of an opinion issued by the IPO and make it more likely to be binding on the parties involved. Having said that, I appreciate the spirit in which the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised the opportunity to debate this matter. I agree that it could be seen to be a fine line. The amendment could place the decision, however, within the jurisdiction of civil law. This is at odds with the policy intention of the service, which is to provide an informal opinion on a design question. Therefore, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for his comments. I understand the dilemma that I have posed and why the Government have chosen to be where they are. I have some regrets about it because in some ways this is a good idea which could mean that what the Government are offering through the IPO is of greater value. I will add it to the list of things that I think need to be considered in a broader review of this aspect of intellectual property law and the wider concepts that we have been referring to that need to be picked up and given a broader context within which future policy can be made. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) The registrar will ensure that, where possible, the use of online tools and digital platforms is encouraged.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, we believe the Government to be supportive of the general concept that all procedures and processes should, where possible, be digitally routed and that the activities of the Government themselves and their dependent functions should encourage people to migrate to the digital world as quickly as possible. I have already picked up enough stick by referring to a form in paper style, which my noble friend Lord Borrie immediately picked up was inappropriate, but I think that he also had in mind that this was redolent of an earlier age of quill pens and ink on forms completed in triplicate and dispatched by pigeon post around various offices, before being collated in compendious storage areas that could be permanently trawled by clerks bound to that paper. I am sorry for the flight of fancy, but it has been a long afternoon.
At the heart of the amendment is a proposal that we should, wherever possible, encourage those for whom the Government are responsible to think digitally. Therefore, the amendment would ask the registrar to centre the work of the IPO and in relation to the design opinions service and all parts of that around a digital platform. The development of all interactions or communications with clients should be digital. The online tools and digital platforms that will be created would be a huge advantage to those operating in this field because they will reduce costs, encourage quick responses and improve the quality of the advice and information exchanged.
The amendment has an impeccable pedigree and a wish to see the Government performing better, and I hope that it will commend itself to the Minister when he responds. I beg to move.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, while strongly endorsing the thrust of my noble friend’s amendment, I simply ask the Minister when he replies if he will explain to the Committee how we can have confidence that the department and the Intellectual Property Office will be able to maintain the appropriate security of online communications. Also, can he assure us that they will be able to preserve documentation in perpetuity?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, Amendment 21 would place a duty on the registrar to encourage the use of online tools and digital platforms in the conduct of design registration. I welcome the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Young of Norwood Green, raising this issue as it is an objective the Government already take seriously. IPO customers have indicated a genuine preference for the convenience offered by such services, and the IPO has further sought to incentivise such behaviour, for example by the use of lower fees for the electronic filing of trade mark applications. Currently more than 80% of trade mark applications occur online and therefore the Government see no reason why this figure cannot be achieved for online design applications. The IPO has recently migrated trade mark registrations to a fully electronic document management system and is starting to develop a similar system for design registration. The latter forms a commitment in the published corporate plan of the Intellectual Property Office, which I signed off earlier in the year.
Given the efforts that the office is making in this regard, I remain to be convinced that a specific duty needs to be set out in primary legislation. I understand the comments and the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised this issue too, in terms of ensuring that we can have confidence in the security of the Government’s digital services. I can assure noble Lords in the Committee today that the IPO’s policies for keeping information secure and for maintaining them in line with the Government’s wider commitments in this area are in place.
I hope this will provide sufficient reassurance to the noble Lord and that he will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comments, and I am happy to confirm to him that his words provided sufficient assurance. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) The registrar may give directions specifying that in Design Form DF2C the words “within one year” will be replaced with the words “within 30 months”.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, in rereading my notes for this amendment, I realised that I managed to commit another solecism by specifying a form. I hope that will not prompt my noble friend Lord Borrie to leap to his feet and decry me again.
The drafting leaves something to be desired, but the intention is clear. There is a reference in the consultation document to the way in which applications for registering a design have associated with them a possibility of a limitation or a short period of time before the form is published. This is for commercial and other reasons and works well; there is no reason to change it. However in the consultation the Government floated the idea that it should be 30 months, not 12 months, which is a substantial increase. It was interesting to read the responses to that consultation because the Government felt that they could do that and were suggesting that it would be done in the future. However, it is not in the Bill, and therefore the arrangements are going to be left for secondary legislation. I would be grateful in this concluding amendment in this afternoon’s business if the Minister would give us more and better information about what is intended, the rationale for allowing an extension beyond the 12-month period, if there is to be one, and the conditions under which individuals or companies can request such a deferral of publication so that we can better understand the way in which this operates. I beg to move.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, this amendment, in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Young of Norwood Green, would place a power in primary legislation for the registrar to amend the period of deferment of design applications from one year to up to 30 months.
When a design is registered, the applicant is issued with a certificate and the design is published in the Official Journal. The deferment period allows applicants for registered designs to delay the date of registration where they might want to keep the design confidential. There could be good commercial reasons for this; for example, a business might not be quite ready to market a product and would want the registration, and therefore publication, to coincide with the entry of its product on to the marketplace.
The powers under Section 36 of the Registered Designs Act 1949 enable rules to be made prescribing time limits, including for the purposes of Section 3(5) of the 1949 Act to which this amendment is addressed. In addition, Clause 12 removes the requirement to use secondary legislation to make minor changes in the way the IPO functions. This will enable the IPO to specify by means of directions any necessary changes to the content and layout of forms relating to registered designs. A note explaining what these directions are expected to contain has been made available and placed in the Libraries of both Houses. The note sets out that one anticipated change will be to extend the period of deferment for publication of design applications for up to 30 months. The detail contained in this amendment is more appropriately dealt with in rules or directions. I hope this will provide sufficient reassurance to the noble Lords such that this amendment can be withdrawn.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comments. In giving an answer, I do not think he picked up the point I was making, which was that it is not clear why the jump from 12 to 30 months is justifiable. I understand the process, and I am grateful to him for confirming that there will be secondary legislation. Indeed, I had noted reference to that in the document that was circulated prior to the Minister meeting Peers. However, 12 months to 30 months is such an enormous gap. Will the Minister write me a short note about it? Perhaps he can respond now.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I apologise to the noble Lord because the question of why it is 30 months is important. The answer is that it is to conform to EU law. The general principle is aligning UK law with EU law in this respect.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Well, there we are. I thank the Minister. That is certainly an answer, but it is not quite what I was expecting. I still think it might be helpful if a little more context could be given, but I will not press the Minister further on this point. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Andrews)
My Lords, that concludes the business of the Committee for today. The Committee is adjourned until 2 pm on Thursday 13 June.
House of Lords
Small Businesses: Late Payments
Lord Harrison
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to amend the legislation on late payments to improve the cash flow of small businesses.
Lord Popat
My Lords, the Government take the issue of late payment very seriously. We recently transposed a European directive to combat late payment into UK law. The amended legislation came into effect on 16 March this year and builds on existing UK law. It further strengthens the legal obligation on payment terms, including a statutory obligation on public authorities to pay commercial creditors within 30 days.
Lord Harrison
My Lords, the prompt payment code has been a palpable and egregious failure. Only one in five of Britain’s limited companies and only two out of 42 police authorities have signed up to it, leaving most small businesses £45,000 short in their ability to invest. While it is welcome news that the Government are implementing the March 2013 late payment legislation, failure has occurred so far. Therefore, could the Government put teeth into the legislation prepared by the Labour Government? Secondly, will they consider encouraging credit capital markets to be available to small businesses in the same way as they are in America, to allow small businesses the ability to invest?
Lord Popat
My Lords, 75% of the FTSE 100 companies have signed up to the prompt payment code; something like 1,500 companies are now signing up to it. With regard to the public organisations, including police authorities, we are taking every action possible. My colleague, the Minister Michael Fallon, has written to them, giving them 90 days to ensure that they sign up to the prompt payment code. With regard to funding, the Government have a number of schemes to help SMEs finance their existing cash flow, including funding for lending.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, what assessment have the Government made of the potential for early payment schemes for the cash flow of small businesses?
Lord Popat
My Lords, the Government fully support early payment schemes, which offer suppliers the option of early payment in return for a discount or a fee, as long as that is offered in conjunction with fair payment terms rather than as a substitute. The Government’s view is that all businesses should agree fair payment terms at the outset of the contract and that they should pay their suppliers on time, according to the agreed times.
Lord Borrie
My Lords, why do the Government not empower a public authority, such as the Financial Conduct Authority, to take up cudgels on behalf of small enterprises, to ensure that prompt payment is made of cash that is due to them?
Lord Popat
My Lords, we have a voluntary organisation, the Institute of Credit Management, which oversees the prompt payment code on behalf of the Government. We do not need a statutory organisation to bring in prompt payment.
Lord Cotter
When the Government place contracts with large companies in future, will they ensure that it is a requirement that those companies sign up to the prompt payment code, and that they publicise their record on the payment of bills in their annual reports?
Lord Popat
My Lords, the Government are doing everything possible to encourage a culture of prompt payment. As I said earlier, 75% of FTSE 100 companies have already signed up to prompt payment.
Baroness Sharples
Can my noble friend say whether the ministries are paying their debts on time?
Lord Popat
The noble Baroness raises an important issue. The department is doing everything it can to speed up prompt payment, both for SMEs and for large companies.
Lord Mitchell
My Lords, the Government have been prolific in announcing new schemes designed to assist small businesses to grow. They all have one thing in common: not one of them is working. The money simply is not getting through. If large organisations could be shamed into paying within 30 days, small companies would benefit immediately. Here is an idea: why not make it compulsory for all organisations, public and private, to include payment performance in their annual accounts?
Lord Popat
My Lords, government departments are obliged to pay 80% of their invoices within five days. We are promoting a culture of prompt payment. We would not like to bring this in as part of legislation. In many ways, we inherited this particularly important and good legislation from the previous Government. We will now further enhance it by taking the European directive to make sure that UK suppliers are paid by member states of Europe.
Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, I ask my noble friend whether it is a great thing that 75% of the FTSE 100 who actually pay have subscribed to this code. First, a code is a code, not a law. Circumstances are such now, with austerity in such a state, that we ought to look at this seriously. If 75% of the FTSE 100 pay on time, that still leaves one in four of our major companies that do not. I also support the point that my noble friend raised: is the Minister able to give us details of which government departments actually pay on time, not the ones that do not?
Lord Popat
My Lords, at least 80% of invoices are paid within five days by government departments. In March 2013, the biggest paid 97.1% of its invoices within five days. Although 75% of FTSE 100 companies have signed this code, we are doing everything possible to encourage and support the other 25% who have not signed. However, there is a good chance that these companies do not supply that many goods and services in the UK, even though they are FTSE 100 companies listed in the UK.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, why do the Government not promote invoice discounting and factoring more vigorously?
Lord Popat
My Lords, the discount depends on the supplier and the buyer. Quite often there is an agreement to make prompt payment, and if there is early payment a discount is offered by the supplier to the buyer. Factoring is very common; most banks like to factor invoices, rather than provide additional funding in the form of an overdraft. That is because factoring brings their capital back more quickly than an overdraft facility would.
Atmospheric Carbon
Lord Wigley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to address the increase in the level of atmospheric carbon recently recorded by the monitoring station at Mauna Loa in Hawaii.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma)
My Lords, I am aware that this spring, for the first time, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels briefly reached 400 parts per million in some parts of the world, compared with pre-industrial levels of approximately 280 parts per million. Domestically, the UK has committed to achieve at least an 80% cut in carbon emissions by 2050. Internationally, through the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, the Government are working towards adopting an ambitious and legally binding global deal in 2015, increasing mitigation ambition in the period up to 2020, and continuing to build a climate regime that will ensure that countries’ commitments are measurable, transparent and comparable.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the last time atmospheric carbon hit the 400 parts per million level was 3 million years ago when the Arctic was free of ice and sea levels were 40 metres higher than they are today? Given the comments of the Environment Minister, Owen Paterson, on “Any Questions?” last Friday, which suggested that he is in denial about the contribution of carbon to climate change, can she give an assurance that the Government will stick by their policy and confirm that they recognise that the greatest contributor to climate change is in fact carbon? That is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Will she put it to the Government that this issue should be high on the agenda at the G8 meeting next week in Northern Ireland?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that a large majority of scientists around the world agree that there is evidence of global warming through carbon emissions. We as a Government remain committed to reducing carbon emissions and I hope that my first Answer gave the noble Lord some reassurance on that.
Lord Deben
Does my noble friend accept that we recognise the very fine record of the Government in sticking to their policies up to now? However, the important thing is this: how do we deliver from now onwards? It is very important that the explanations around the Energy Bill are clear, concise and very decided. Furthermore, we should have a carbon intensity target for 2030 if we are going to get the investment that Britain needs to ensure that we have a low-carbon electricity supply.
Baroness Verma
My noble friend is absolutely right to say that we need to ensure that there is certainty for investors. The Energy Bill, which is to come to your Lordships’ House next week, will set out exactly what the Government are doing through the electricity market reform project. We are working hard to ensure that there is certainty in the renewables sector and we are on target to meet our carbon emissions reduction goals. I think that noble Lords will find, during the passage of the Bill, that this Government plan to be one of the greenest Governments because of the measures they are currently taking.
Lord Soley
My Lords, I understand the interest in international agreements, but is there not an important factor here in the form of the science and technology sector, which is talking increasingly about extracting carbon from the atmosphere? Will the Government continue to give major support to the scientists and technologists who are working on the extraction of carbon, which is now being discussed increasingly as an option?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, the noble Lord has made an important point; it is one that has a great deal of technical and scientific evidence behind it. If the noble Lord will allow me, I will give a more detailed answer in writing and I will place a copy of that response in the Library.
Lord May of Oxford
I remind the noble Baroness that we are on target, but only by virtue of the recession. As I have rather unkindly remarked on a previous occasion, I trust that this is not our plan for remaining on target to 2050, although sometimes I wonder as I look at the current happenings.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I reassure the noble Lord that it is not just because of the recession. We are, through the Energy Bill, putting in place a number of measures to ensure that we will be working towards reducing carbon emissions.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, to reduce carbon emissions we need a strong carbon price. Can my noble friend the Minister tell us what the Government are doing to boost the price of carbon in Europe, despite the fact that the European Parliament has recently voted against the backloading of current emission targets?
Baroness Verma
I agree with my noble friend. We continue to support the Commission’s proposal to backload and we hope for a more positive outcome in the forthcoming votes in the European Parliament at the next voting session. The Government are pushing for the adoption of a unilateral EU target for 2030 of a 40% reduction on 1990 levels, and, in the context of a more ambitious climate agreement for the period beyond 2020, the EU’s target should increase up to a 50% reduction on 1990 levels.
Baroness Worthington
My Lords, I return to the original Question from my noble friend. The Government are hosting the G8 meeting in Northern Ireland next week. Despite receiving requests from both the German and French Prime Ministers, our Prime Minister has been reticent about putting climate change on the agenda. Has he had cause to rethink this decision and will climate change be discussed next week in Northern Ireland?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I can reassure the noble Baroness that it remains very much a commitment for all G8 leaders. This year, under our G8 presidency, the Foreign Ministers will consider the wider security risk presented by changing climate. It has not gone off the agenda. It will be discussed, but in a different forum.
Lord Howell of Guildford
Is my noble friend aware that Mauna Loa, mentioned in the Question, is, measured from the seabed, one of the highest mountains on earth, higher than Mount Everest? The top of it is often in the clouds and I am afraid that some of the discussion about this issue is in the same position. I am sure she is aware that the most rapid reduction in CO2 is being achieved currently in the United States, which has gone very rapidly from coal to gas. If we really want to get our CO2 emissions rapidly down once the recession is over, is there not a case for concentrating in the short and medium term on developing the gas economy as rapidly as possible, thus reducing CO2 emissions, cheapening our power and encouraging economic growth and recovery?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, my noble friend is right that gas will have an important role to play and will continue to make a contribution to our energy mix.
Schools: PSHE
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Massey of Darwen
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the report by Ofsted Not Yet Good Enough: Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education in Schools, published on 1 May.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash)
My Lords, the Government are grateful for Ofsted’s report, which provides an important and valuable analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of PSHE provision in this country. We encourage all schools to focus on the areas for improvement outlined in the report and, in doing so, to access best practice identified by Ofsted.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
I thank the Minister for that response. I know that he agrees on the importance of personal, social, health and economic education in schools. Is he aware that not only is Ofsted concerned but so are parents, those who work with young people and young people themselves? Can he use his influence to suggest to the DfE that a simple addition to part 2 of the national curriculum framework could make explicit the link between existing statutory provision and personal, social, health and economic education?
Lord Nash
I am aware that the PSHE strategic partners group has written to my honourable friend the Minister for Education and Childcare calling for a more explicit link to be made in the national curriculum framework document between schools’ statutory requirements and the provision of PSHE education. I am grateful for the input of this group, which represents a wide range of PSHE stakeholders. I assure noble Lords, and the noble Baroness, that we are currently giving this full and proper consideration as part of the national curriculum review.
Lord Storey
My Lords, considering that in a fifth of the schools inspected it was found that none of the staff had any training in PSHE and that in a fifth of the schools the teaching was not good, what steps will be taken to improve continuing professional development in PSHE in both education and subject leadership?
Lord Nash
To support schools, we have asked Ofsted to publish specific examples of effective practice in PSHE to provide evidence for teachers when developing and delivering their PSHE programmes. We are also providing grant funding to the PSHE Association to undertake work advising schools on their teaching, including improving staff training. The PSHE Association will expand its chartered teacher programme, which recognises effective practice and encourages high-quality PSHE training.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, the report says that improvement in the delivery of the sex and relationship side of PSHE is needed in as many of a third of schools; and, worse, that this means that particularly sensitive issues, such as mental health, sexuality, domestic violence and pornography, are either receiving too little attention or are frankly just being omitted completely because of teacher embarrassment. What steps are the Government proposing to ensure that teachers involved will in future have the necessary skills to teach these important subjects?
Lord Nash
The noble Baroness is quite right that we need to up our game in this regard, particularly in relation to internet pornography. As noble Lords will know, quite a lot is going on in relation to the internet at the moment. SRE in particular is a vital part of training, and we hope that the Ofsted examples will improve that. The draft science curriculum includes clear requirements for pupils to be taught about their bodies, physical development and reproduction.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Can the Minister tell me why there is no interest at all now in education on dental prevention in schools? Although children still have tests for eyesight, hearing and so on, the dental examination has been discontinued. Can he ensure that teachers will interest children in prevention? Hearing that Manchester has not only one of worst mortality rates but the worst dental health makes you think that it is rather important.
Lord Nash
My noble friend raises a very good point. All schools should focus on their pupils’ diet and health, including home health, because we know that so many pupils suffer from poor parenting. I will write to her more specifically about what we are doing in this regard.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, the worldwide campaign against violence towards women, along with recent criminal cases, has highlighted the danger that internet pornography presents to children and young people. The Children’s Commissioner’s inquiry shows that many young people are exposed to internet pornography through their schools and their friends. What guidance have the Government issued to schools to help protect children from exposure to internet pornography? Is this issue not a really good example of why we now urgently need statutory PSHE?
Lord Nash
I entirely agree with the noble Baroness’s point about the danger of internet pornography, which is a much bigger issue than just in schools. We are working with the industry, through the UK Council for Child Internet Safety, to make it easier than ever for harmful and inappropriate internet content to be filtered from home broadband and all devices. The top five ISPs have committed to having parental controls in place by the end of 2013. On 18 June, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport will meet internet businesses to see what more they can do to tackle illegal online pornography. Further work is also going on in this regard.
Lord Northbourne
My Lords, following on from the first intervention, is the noble Lord aware that there are no fewer than 10 references in this report to the inadequacy of specialist teacher training to prepare teachers to teach these subjects, particularly personal and social education, in schools? Surely the Government ought to do something to encourage teacher training colleges to provide better training and more of it.
Lord Nash
We are giving greater control to schools to decide how best to recruit teachers and expanding the teaching schools programme substantially. Good schools, in partnership with strong training institutions, understand the needs of their pupils and how staff should be prepared for this. As I have mentioned, we have funded the PSHE Association further in this regard.
Homeless People: Night Shelters
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Alton of Liverpool
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what provision they are making for homeless people left without access to night shelter provision following the Anglesey judgment on housing benefit and the funding of night shelters.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, local authorities are best placed to make local provision for homeless people and have been allocated £470 million from 2011-12 until 2014-15 to prevent homelessness and tackle rough sleeping.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
My Lords, if there were no material changes in the Government’s regulations concerning night shelters, why are homeless people who were in shelters now on the streets? In the light of the Anglesey judgment is there not an urgent need for the Minister to issue new guidance to close a revolving door which has sent vulnerable people, many of whose lives were, in any event, in freefall, back on to the streets, sleeping rough on park benches or in shop doorways or seeking hospital beds, and which in Salford precipitated the closure of Narrowgate, the only night shelter serving Manchester and Salford, which has, in the past, helped more than 2,000 people? To protect the homeless, do we not need to rapidly hammer out a humane and just solution, with new guidelines issued to local authorities and to charities working with the homeless?
Lord Freud
My Lords, clearly homelessness is a priority of this Government and we are putting a lot of resource into prevention. The most important area in which we are doing that is the No Second Night Out policy, which is proving very successful and is being run out across the country this year. This is an isolated example of how particular shelters are funded.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, how much consultation was there before this judgment was put into effect? Following the point of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who has done tremendous work in this area, is it not time that we issued clear, simple guidelines? Will the Minister write to every local authority explaining that not only have benefits been paid in the past but, in spite of the judgment, they can be paid now and that no one need lose their place in a night shelter?
Lord Freud
My Lords, the actual finding was that a particular night shelter in Anglesey could not be treated as a dwelling because it was, basically, a converted hall. There was no reserving and the people there came on a first come, first-served basis every night. It was a particular finding which might apply to a few other places. However, that is about how local areas find the best possible funding for their support for homeless people.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top
My Lords, I declare my interests stated in the register. I know that the Minister understands that many homeless organisations are trying to move as many people as possible from hostel accommodation in to independent living. However, does he realise that that is now being put at threat because of the changes to the benefits system and, of course, the bedroom tax? In Newcastle, the local housing company has had to warn the Cyrenians, which is the biggest supplier, if you like, of work with the homeless, that it is coming to the stage where it will not be able to allocate any properties to the homeless because it will have to use them for people being transferred within their own estate.
Lord Freud
My Lords, that is clearly a very wide question and I find it hard to answer the specific point. On the point about hostels for the homeless, our best estimate is that there are about 9,000 bedrooms for people who are rough sleepers. A proportion of those may be affected by this particular provision. Authorities need to look at the other sources of funding, including the Supporting People programme, which received £6.5 billion in this spending review.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, can my noble friend remind your Lordships’ House how many spare bedrooms there are in the social housing sector and how many families live in overcrowded accommodation?
Lord Freud
My Lords, there are approximately a quarter of a million people living in overcrowded accommodation and 1 million spare bedrooms in homes lived in by people who receive benefits in the social rented sector.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, the noble Lord said that this was an isolated incident, but is he aware that local authorities are already cutting off housing benefit and that shelters are closing down? When will Homeless Link and Crisis have a reply to the representations that they made to DWP asking for an urgent clarification of this ruling?
Lord Freud
My Lords, this is a very particular ruling on what is a dwelling for which housing benefit is payable. Clearly, there are other ways to provide support for night shelters where they are not dwellings. As I said, that is in the Supporting People programme and in the homelessness prevention budget, which are the two large budgets. There may be a small number of the 9,000 or so bedroom spaces where one has to look carefully at what is the appropriate funding, but a large amount of effort is going into supporting rough sleepers and to make that provision. If the effect of this is to upgrade the provision of beds for those who are sleeping rough, that might be a rather good outcome.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, the Minister said that homelessness was a priority for the Government. It is interesting to note that, after years of declining trends, 2010 marked the turning point when all forms of homelessness began to rise. Does the Minister accept that for many, a period of stay in a shelter is the first step to being able to obtain and keep a home? It is an environment where they can begin the transition from a chaotic lifestyle to something more stable. In those circumstances, why does not the Minister take up the suggestions that noble Lords have made to look specifically at statutory guidance or a tweak in the regulations so that the types of provision caught by this ruling are put back in the position where people assumed that they were before the judgment was made?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I emphasise that there is absolutely no change here in what is the kind of home for which housing benefit is appropriate. Where that is, in the case of Anglesey, a hall where the showers for those people are half a mile away, it may be that other forms of support, such as the Supporting People programme or homelessness prevention are more appropriate. The No Second Night Out programme, which is now being introduced throughout the country, is beginning to make some impressive moves to make sure that people in the state of rough sleeping are caught early and got back on to the path, as the noble Lord said, out of a chaotic lifestyle into something where they can get themselves organised.
Planning Act 2008 (Nationally Significant Infrastructure Projects) (Electric Lines) Order 2013
Baroness Verma
That the draft order laid before the House on 10 April be approved.
Relevant document: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 4 June.
Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2013
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Randerson
That the draft regulations and draft order laid before the House on 8 May be approved.
Relevant document: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 4 June.
Education: Reform of GCSEs
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash)
My Lords, with your permission, I should like to repeat a Statement on the future of examinations. The Statement is as follows.
“There is now a widespread consensus, underpinned by today’s authoritative report from the Education Select Committee, that we need to reform our examination system to restore public confidence. That is why today we are publishing draft details of new GCSE content in core academic subjects and the independent regulator Ofqual is publishing its own consultation on the regulation of reformed GCSEs.
We are publishing the draft content in English, maths, science, history, geography and modern and ancient languages alongside this Statement. We will consult on that content over the next 10 weeks. We expect that these subjects, with the exception of languages, should be ready for first teaching in September 2015, with the first exams being taken in the summer of 2017. Languages and other subjects should follow soon after with first teaching from September 2016 and first exams being taken from the summer of 2018.
The new subject content published today has been drawn up in collaboration with distinguished subject experts, many of whom have expertise and experience in teaching, and we would like to thank them all. In line with our changes to the national curriculum, the new specifications are more challenging, more ambitious and more rigorous. That means more extended writing in subjects such as English and history, more testing of advanced problem-solving skills in mathematics and science, and more testing of mathematics within science GCSEs to improve progression to A-levels. It also means more challenging mechanics problems in physics, a stronger focus on evolution and genetics in biology and a greater focus on foreign language composition so that pupils require deeper language skills.
The higher level of demand should equip our children to go on to higher education or a good apprenticeship. We can raise the bar confidently knowing that we have the best generation of teachers ever in our schools to help students achieve more than ever before. Our education reforms, the growth in the number of academies and free schools, the improvements in teacher recruitment and training as well as sharper accountability from improved league tables and a strengthened Ofsted are raising standards in state schools. This means that new GCSEs will remain universal qualifications—accessible, with good teaching, to the same proportion of pupils as now.
The specifications that we are publishing today also give awarding organisations a clearer indication of our expectations in each subject. Under the previous system specifications were too vague. This caused suspicion and speculation that some exam boards were ‘harder’ than others, undermining the credibility of the exam system as a whole. Including more detail in our requirements for subject content should ensure greater consistency and fairness across subjects and between exam boards. We hope that by reducing variability in the system we can ensure that all young people leave school with qualifications respected by employers, universities and further education.
While making GCSE content more rigorous we must also correct the structural problems with GCSEs that the coalition Government inherited. As today’s report from the Select Committee confirms, the problems with English GCSEs generated last summer proved beyond any doubt that the current system requires reform. Both the Select Committee report and Ofqual recognise that controlled assessment, which counted for 60% of the English GCSE qualification, undermined the reliability of the assessment as a whole. That is why I asked Ofqual to review the regulatory framework for GCSEs, to judge how we might limit coursework and controlled assessment and to reflect on how we could lift the cap on aspiration by reducing the two-tier structure of some GCSEs. I have also asked Ofqual to explore how we might reform our grading structure, better to reflect the full range of student ability and reward the very best performance.
Ofqual’s consultation sets out how reformed GCSEs can be more rigorous and stretching and encourage students to develop and demonstrate deep understanding. It is proposed that coursework and controlled assessment will largely be replaced by linear, externally marked end-of-course exams. It is proposed that the current two-tier system will end except where it is absolutely essential, in maths and science. In those subjects, Ofqual is consulting on how to improve the current arrangements to deal with the concerns that we have expressed about capping aspiration. Ofqual is also consulting on a new grading system which gives fairer recognition to the whole ability range.
Young people in this country deserve an education system that can compete with the best in the world, a system that sets and achieves higher expectations. Today’s reforms are essential to achieve this goal. By making GCSEs more demanding, more fulfilling and more stretching, we can give our young people the broad, deep and balanced education that will equip them to win in the global race. I commend this Statement to the House”.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement today. He will know that the department and the Secretary of State have a rather chequered history on education reform—less about linear reform and more about stops, starts and U-turns. It has been difficult for politicians to keep up with his thinking, let alone the head teachers who have to plan for the changes, the teachers who have to deliver those changes and the parents who would like to understand what is to be expected of their child. As a result, a great deal of cynicism and anger has developed about the mixed messages coming out of the department, the pace of change now being demanded and the lack of engagement with the profession prior to the curriculum changes being published.
For example, the Minister talked about the involvement of distinguished subject experts in drawing up the subject content, but he will know that there is a great deal of discontent among those very advisers that their advice was ignored and that they did not recognise the final subject drafts being published. There was even some suggestion that the Secretary of State had removed some of the advisers at a late stage and taken on the task himself. What reassurance can the Minister provide that the draft subject content is genuinely based on the best external advice available and receives their broad support?
Secondly, there is a real concern that the views of parents were not properly sought before these changes were announced. Most parents are passionate about their children’s education and well positioned to know what excites and inspires their child at school. They want to know that standards will apply across the sector—not one rule for academies and another for maintained schools; they worry that unqualified teachers are being allowed back into classrooms by this Government; and they want to be reassured that any new curriculum will provide their child with the qualifications and skills to get decent employment in the future. What steps have been taken to give parents a real and powerful voice in the final shaping of these proposals before they are agreed?
Thirdly, the Minister will know that in the past business leaders and the CBI have expressed concerns that the emphasis on learning and repeating facts that is now being proposed, rather than understanding the importance of collaborative working and creative thinking, are taking the curriculum proposals in the wrong direction and not producing young people with the soft skills necessary in today’s business world. To what extent have the future employers of these young people been involved in drafting the curriculum proposals, and do these now meet with their approval?
Fourthly, the Government are already committed to raising the participation and school-leaving age to 18. This is a policy that we also endorse. However, these proposals cover only the teaching provision to 16. Does the Minister agree that it would have been better to review the curriculum and assessment provisions in a streamlined way through to school-leaving age, rather than approaching it in this piecemeal way? What thought is being given to providing a meaningful education to young people who do not want to study the traditional academic A-level route and who would prefer a quality vocational offer, particularly those in the 16-to-18 range? How does this fit in with these proposals?
We all share the determination to have high standards and rigour in our teaching and assessment of young people. We are proud of our record of driving up standards in the past—the Secretary of State has previously acknowledged our record in this regard—and we support the reform of controlled assessment of coursework in examinations. Clearly, everyone has to have confidence that assessments are carried out objectively and rigorously, but we very much oppose the move back to assessment purely at the end-of-course exams. The Minister spoke of a “cram and forget” culture in exams, but that is the inevitable feature of measurement by exams.
A three-hour exam can never give a child a chance to show all they have learnt over a two-year course, nor can it show the depth of understanding that they can demonstrate in a well-structured piece of coursework. A minority of children will have an innate talent for learning and regurgitating facts. Good for them; we wish them well; but that is not how most children learn or show their abilities, and these are not necessarily the skills that employers want either. The answer has to be a mix of assessment methods to ensure a fair outcome. Can the Minister therefore explain the evidence by which this major change in assessment has come about and what consultation will continue to take place on whether it is fair and viable?
Once again the department has been guilty of rushing out proposals which have major consequences for the next generation of young people. There should be a national debate on the implications and a genuine commitment from the Government to listen and change. Sadly, this department does not have a great record on meaningful consultation, but I hope on this occasion the Minister can reassure this House that there will be a full opportunity to influence the eventual outcome of these changes within both this House and the country before a final decision is taken.
Lord Nash
I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s comments. I was rather surprised to be asked to make this Statement because it seemed to be one more opportunity to highlight the grade-inflation confidence trick that the previous Government pulled on the public of this country. It is true that grade inflation has been going on for a long time. According to a detailed study by King’s College London and Durham University, over the past 30 years-plus in maths the attainment levels have hardly moved, yet the number achieving grade C in maths GCSE has gone up from 22% to 55%. Between 2006 and 2009 achievement at grade C in English and maths increased by eight percentage points, defying all international evidence about the actual levels of achievement. We all know that the current system suffers from dumbing down and grade inflation and that the modular system has much more potential for manipulation. The blowing up of English last summer was the last straw in providing evidence in relation to this. It is not a question of whether we should do it; we must do it, and we must do it now if we are to render our education system competitive in the international world.
We have listened and we will continue to listen. This is a genuine consultation. We have consulted numerous experts, from Dr Anthony Ashmore, Dr Helen Drury, Lynne McClure, Professor Black, Eleanor Rawling to Charlie Stripp and many others. We have consulted parents and businesses. Businesses have been consistent in their claim that the curriculum is not fit for purpose—42% of employers have to provide remedial training for school leavers; eight out of 10 small businesses do not believe that school leavers are ready for work. The Institute of Directors has confirmed that the value of a GCSE has declined, and the British Chamber of Commerce says that school leavers’ literacy and numeracy are inadequate. In science, the Royal Society of Chemistry has called the decline in science a “catastrophic slippage”. Again, there is no doubt that we have taken this on board. Businesses want pupils to have better literacy and numeracy skills, which these more rigorous exams will provide.
Vocational training is right at the top of the Government’s priorities. The first thing we did when we came to power was to commission Professor Alison Wolf to do an analysis of the over 4,000 vocational subjects, many of which were so-called “equivalents”; this equivalence was another attempt to make the education system look better than it was. We have rigorously gone through those qualifications and reduced them to fewer than 200: those which are seriously valued by employers. We are introducing the TechBac, and have consistently compared our exam system with international systems and found it wanting.
We must drive stimulus in the system for better education. By doing that, in two years alone we have increased the take-up of the English baccalaureate from 22% to 48%. It is absolutely clear that our pupils are capable of far more than we have hitherto asked of them. Nothing I have seen has made me think anything other than that. It is high time that we reformed these exams. We have been accused of doing too much too fast. We have fallen so far down the international league tables that, in order for our education system and our country to be competitive, we must move to make substantial changes now.
Lord Sutherland of Houndwood
My Lords, I welcome the Statement from the Minister, and the fact that it has come now. Generations of students should benefit as soon as possible from the potential progress that we have marked here.
On a specific point, I welcome the attention to assessment, reflecting the whole range of ability and achievement in our school population. We have been failing to do this, which has been a disincentive to some of our most able pupils. The Minister will be aware of the success of Finland in the PISA international comparisons. Is he equally aware that one of the elements contributing to that success has been an attempt to ensure that the curriculum is more rigorous and detailed? I assume that these are the principles underlying what we have heard today.
Finally, can the Minister reassure us that the policy issues raised here will in fact be assessed, and that evidence as to whether or not they work will be presented to the House in due course?
Lord Nash
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his comments; I know that he is extremely well informed on these matters. I was aware of the success of Finland. We believe that Ofqual, particularly after its performance on the English exams, is now a rigorous organisation. The various assessment techniques it is consulting on—one in particular—will be rigorous.
Lord Storey
My noble friend is absolutely right to say that we need to have a rigorous examination system in which employers, universities, parents and even pupils have confidence and which is as challenging as that in any other country. I am delighted that we are not going back to a two-tier system; that was important to my colleagues.
I have two questions. An exam is hugely important to the pupil sitting it. It can make or break their life chances and expectations. At the moment you go into an exam, you might have great emotional problems. Young girls or young women can be starting their period, which can be devastating for them when they sit their exam. I hope that Ofqual will look at giving support to those pupils in terms of resits.
My second question follows on from the comments made by noble Lords opposite. How do we consult with parents? We bandy around the phrase, “We must consult with parents”, but how is that consultation carried out? Have we ever thought of consulting pupils themselves? They have great experience of exams.
Lord Nash
I am very interested in my noble friend’s comments. I know that he has vast experience as a teacher. On his last point, I recently read a very interesting report from America, which said that lesson observation was not the best way of working out whether teachers were teaching well; the best way to do that was through exam results and pupil feedback. My noble friend makes a very good point. In relation to pupils who maybe experience particular difficulties with resits, I will take this away for consideration.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s Statement. I am involved in skills and in working with employers, and as late as yesterday I hosted an event here for employers who deal with STEM subjects. The information the Minister shared with us is very much in tune with what is being experienced out there.
My first point follows on from the comments about how we engage parents. A key thing that came out from the meeting yesterday was how we persuade parents that the vocational route is as good, as well qualified and as valuable as the academic route, which my Government and previous Governments have endeavoured to take more people through. That is hugely important. When young people look at apprenticeships, very often their parents will suggest that they are the least best option, let alone the message that comes from schools, where career advice is now non-existent, and Connexions has gone—not that I was a great admirer of it; it had lots of faults. However, if we are to get UK plc working in the way it should do, and being as productive and profitable as it needs to be, employers need to know that they have support from parents as well as government and themselves, ensuring that the skills and vocational techniques that apprentices require are just as important.
Secondly, although the Minister has been very sceptical about equating GCSEs with vocational NVQ qualifications, that has made a difference, because it has allowed parents to measure in some way, however accurate the measurement, the value of what their children are learning. I hope that they will also be brought to a productive employment future.
Lord Nash
The noble Baroness makes some very good points. It is essential that we now make sure that our vocational qualifications are seen by all— employers, parents and students—as being as rigorous as academic qualifications and equally valuable. The Alison Wolf review, which suggests that we focus down on a core—although still substantial—number of vocational qualifications, is helpful here. However, we started from a very low base. You could get a diploma in a subject—I will not mention the name—which required no examinations at all because it was assessed entirely by continuous assessment. That counted as four GCSE equivalents. We clearly had got to a point where the system of equivalents was out of control. However, we need to see more rigorous vocational qualifications—and the UTC programme is very focused on this. We are seeing pupils, aged 14 and 16, going to UTCs which offer extremely rigorous vocational qualifications, and we need to spread this practice into schools as well.
Baroness Coussins
My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Modern Languages. I welcome the Government’s intention to introduce more rigour in foreign languages at GCSE. However, there seems little point in improving the system if very large numbers of pupils are effectively disfranchised from access to it. What can the Minister tell the House about the Government’s intention in relation to the pupils in the 20% of state schools that have condensed key stage 3 into only two years, meaning that there are tens of thousands of pupils who do no languages at all after the age of 13, and who therefore have no chance of taking a language at GCSE, improved or otherwise?
Lord Nash
Yes, there are quite a few schools that take GCSEs over three years. It is a technique that troubles me a bit personally because we all know that if key stage 3 was better and not the kind of desert it can be, more pupils would do it. The noble Baroness makes a very good point: we are short of language teachers. We have put bursaries in place to encourage language teachers with good degrees into the system, but I will take her points on board.
Lord Quirk
My Lords, further to same point, if the new GCSEs are to have a fair chance, will the Government ensure that the timetable for their introduction fully respects the need for teachers right across the board—not just of foreign languages—to be brought up to speed wherever necessary? Is the Minister satisfied that the revised GCSEs respect the special importance of maths and English as underpinning all the other subjects in the examination system?
Lord Nash
The noble Lord makes a very good point. On the timetable, we are now consulting on the subject content and Ofqual is consulting on the regulations. The consultation on subject content ends on 20 August and Ofqual’s consultation ends two weeks later. We plan to publish final versions of both in September or October. The awarding organisations then have about six months to develop their detailed subject specifications and it will take approximately six months for those to be accredited by Ofqual. The full subject specifications should, therefore, be available in September 2014 for first teaching in September 2015 in all the subjects we have mentioned except languages, where first teaching will not be until September 2016. We believe that is ample time for teachers to prepare.
On the point about English and maths going through the curriculum, spelling, punctuation and grammar are worth 5% of marks in history, geography and English literature, and we have increased that to 20% in English language. In science, we are making sure that maths is much more prevalent.
Lord Elton
My Lords, coursework is a very valuable and flexible means of teaching but it is notoriously difficult to moderate, certainly in history and geography and doubtless in other subjects. The decision to withdraw weight from that element of examination marking is very welcome. The period chosen for the forthcoming consultation coincides with the most disrupted period of timetabling in the secondary sector and the peak workload of the examination authorities, on whose contribution there should also, presumably, be consultation. It also, of course, coincides with the holidays. Is the noble Lord certain that this period is long enough?
Lord Nash
We believe it will be long enough. It is important that schools can see the full picture of reform to GCSEs, A-levels, the curriculum and the accountability framework at the same time. As I said, we do not think it is fair on pupils to continue with the current system for any longer than we need to.
Lord Addington
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that certain groups, such as those with dyslexia or other learning difficulties—I declare an interest here—find coursework a much easier way of accessing an exam result? If it is to be downgraded, will my noble friend give me an assurance that the Government have done a detailed study of what assistance has to be given in examinations, which account for more and more of the marks, to enable this group to pass basic examinations and to access further and higher education, where they have proved that they can succeed? If my noble friend can tell me what has happened, I will be very happy. If he cannot, perhaps he will give me an idea of what type of consultation will be done so that the most modern and up-to-date techniques, such as voice to text and text to voice, might be used to allow these people to access exams on an even footing. We have already heard that we are taking spelling into account. Will the Minister give some indication of what we are doing for this very big group in our society?
Lord Nash
My noble friend makes a very good point. We have consulted with organisations representing SEN groups. The points he makes, particularly in relation to voice and text, are technical and something that we should discuss in detail on a separate occasion. It is very important that we make sure that we have consulted all the right people on this difficult matter.
Lord Sanderson of Bowden
Will my noble friend tell me whether in his consultation he will consult the devolved authorities in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, and whether there is the slightest chance that they will go along with our plans?
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, I record an interest as having been, many decades ago, an unqualified teacher. I may tell the Minister that in that job I was not equivalent to a professionally qualified teacher and doctor, who was given the pupils with learning and behavioural difficulties to keep him out of the way. I worry about the Government’s approach to professional training for teachers. Like other noble Lords, I am sure, I came across people who were trained after the Second World War, straight out of the forces. Some of them became good teachers, but many of them became dreadful teachers because they knew little about the education process or the development of children.
Will the Minister also be prepared to listen to representations on the problems of summer-born children and their ability to resit examinations, because they can be a full year younger than the rest of the cohort?
Will the Minister give an answer to another question, even if he is not able to reply now? There is deep concern in agriculture and horticulture that the department removed the qualification. How quickly will it be brought back?
Finally, will the Minister insist that when the consultation goes ahead, it will take into account the interests of pupils, and with the right timing for the training of teachers? Even if we all agree that the changes are right, the turnaround time can be damaging to the group of children who are going through the key years when the changes are taking place.
Lord Nash
I thank the noble Baroness for her comments. It is true that we now have the best generation of teachers that we have ever had. However, clearly we need to do more to improve teacher training, which in this country is very patchy. We need both to improve our TT colleges’ standards generally and have more training in schools.
I am aware of the issue of summer-born children and have seen the statistics, which are stark. I would be delighted to discuss the matter further to make sure that this is properly taken into account. The same goes for the agricultural and horticultural industries.
We believe that the turnaround time is long enough, but we will make sure that all head teachers are aware of the issue of the crossover turnaround time.
Lord Bew
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his earlier reply, in which he said that there will be discussions with the devolved Assemblies on the implications of these important reforms. May I ask him about the underlying spirit of these discussions? The Minister for Education in the Northern Ireland Executive—ironically, in this context, a Sinn Fein Minister—has said that he wants to see uniformity of standards maintained throughout the whole of the United Kingdom. Will the Minister reassure the House that this will also be the approach of the Government of the United Kingdom? These will be difficult discussions, but I hope the Minister can shed some light on the principles with which the Government will approach them.
Offender Rehabilitation Bill [HL]
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
“Presumption in favour of community sentence orders
(1) Section 152 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (general restrictions on imposing discretionary custodial sentences) is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (2) insert—
“(2A) Where a court has discretion to pass a custodial sentence or impose a fine or a community sentence, the court must not pass a custodial sentence for a term of less than 12 months unless it is of the opinion that—
(a) the requirements of subsection (2) are satisfied, and(b) there are special reasons which justify a custodial sentence,and has had regard to the provisions of section 256AA.(2B) A court passing a custodial sentence for a term of less than 12 months must state in open court the reasons for its opinion that there are special reasons which justify the sentence.”
(3) In subsection (3), after “(2)” insert “or (2A)”.”
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, this amendment, in my name and that of my noble friends Lord Dholakia and Lady Hamwee, builds upon the general principle embodied in Section 152 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which is, in the words of the section, that:
“The court must not pass a custodial sentence unless it is of the opinion that the offence, or … offences … was so serious that neither a fine alone nor a community sentence can be justified for the offence”.
That is a sensible principle that is soundly based on the wealth of evidence that short sentences are not only unhelpful but in many cases profoundly damaging. That evidence has been commissioned by the Howard League for Penal Reform and by many others. The findings are well known to the House. Short sentences are disruptive. They cut offenders’ ties with their communities, with their jobs if they have them, and with their families. They introduce offenders, particularly first-time offenders, to a culture where reoffending is the norm.
It is of course to be hoped that the impact of this Bill will reduce the reoffending rates of this cohort of prisoners by introducing periods of supervision, but balancing a hoped for mitigation of damage against the evidence that we have of actual damage still leads to the conclusion that short sentences are to be avoided.
Our amendment goes a stage further than Section 152 and is an attempt to address the risk that was identified by several noble Lords at Second Reading. The risk is that the availability of short sentences of imprisonment that will carry an automatic period of supervision upon release will make short sentences more attractive to sentencers. The point was put succinctly in particular by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, who said:
“The Bill will create problems, as has already been indicated, as there will be a temptation in some courts to undermine the objective of the Bill by seeing the proposals for dealing with reoffending as justifying short sentences”.—[Official Report, 20/5/13; col. 653.].
A little later he said:
“What can be achieved by a short sentence in prison can always be better achieved, in my experience, by a community sentence”.—[Official Report, 20/5/13; col. 654.]
The existing provision in the Criminal Justice Act deals with the seriousness of the offence or offences. The suggested provision in our amendment would make it very clear to sentencers that the availability of a period of supervision should not lead to or encourage the imposition of short sentences. The court would have to be satisfied not only as to the seriousness of the offence or offences themselves but that there were special reasons to justify a custodial sentence, and those reasons would have to be stated in open court. The principle would be strengthened that short sentences are to be avoided unless they are really necessary in an individual case. I beg to move.
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, I have a favourable approach to this amendment, which would be a substantial change in practice. However, it is important that we do not present the question of short custodial sentences and community sentences simply in terms of hard or soft sentencing, although that is what actually happens in the media comment on some of these issues. For me, the real question is what arrangement is more likely to protect the public against continuing crime. That is the issue that we face in this amendment. At present, we have short custodial sentences, which do of course protect the public for a short period, but because the reoffending rate is high we also have periods when the public are not protected because we get a continuation of crime. The question is: can we do better?
The amendment does not take away the power of a court to impose a short custodial sentence where there are special reasons for doing so. Like the noble Lord who presented the amendment, I think that part of it is well drafted and correct and that we should concentrate on the special reasons. Furthermore, it requires the court to explain its decision in such cases. Over a period, such explanations will provide a good basis for assessing the effectiveness of the proposals. It is certainly possible—in my view, probable—that the proposal in the amendment, with a presumption for community sentences, will reduce crime and thus benefit law-abiding citizens. Therefore, I have a favourable presumption for the presumption.
Lord Dholakia
I am delighted to support this amendment, which sets out a new clause before Clause 12 and deals with the presumption in favour of community sentence orders, as has been rightly pointed out. This is very much a probing amendment to see how the Minister will react. I will be brief. My noble friend Lord McNally, the Minister, is aware that every time we have discussed legislation on sentencing, particularly lower-level sentencing, I have advocated a cautious approach in favour of community sentence orders in place of custody.
Prison sentences of less than 12 months are the argument that we are putting forward. We all know that under the present provisions, custodial sentences of less than 12 months achieve very little corrective behaviour. On the contrary, we have seen that the impact on an individual without supervision can be very damaging indeed. We want to avoid this risk. Our amendment would help guard against the risk that the welcome provisions of the Bill for post-release supervision for short-term prisoners could lead to the courts imprisoning more people. At present, courts may decide in borderline cases not to imprison an offender because supervision in the form of a community sentence is more likely to divert him or her away from offending. However, with the new supervision arrangements, the court might feel that by imprisoning the offender for a short period it can get the best of both worlds—both the punitive impact of imprisonment and supervision of the offender when he or she is released.
We have discussed similar provisions in previous legislation. The custody plus provision that we introduced at one stage is history now, but we know what happened to it. This would be a short-sighted view as even a short period of custody can lead to an offender losing accommodation and a job and fracturing family links, all of which make it more likely that he or she will reoffend, which is contrary to the provisions that we will discuss in our debate on rehabilitating offenders. Sentences of less than 12 months are too short for a sustained attempt at rehabilitation in custody but are long enough to damage the community ties which those supervising offenders can build on in trying to prevent them reoffending.
There has been a dramatic increase in the number of options available to the courts when dealing with offenders. We know about simple things, such as matters of conditional discharge and fines. There are also community service orders, probation orders and attendance orders. These are just a few of the alternatives, yet prison remains at the heart of our criminal justice system, with other penalties often referred to as alternatives to custody. I believe that my noble friend Lord McNally is on the right track in the way in which this Bill deals with rehabilitation. He is right in putting the emphasis on society to try and deal with more offenders in the community rather than in prisons. That is not in doubt. We are now seeing the impact, which is less use of prison and a drop in the crime rate—a remarkable achievement by the coalition Government. No longer does the argument apply that prison works.
We are not suggesting that grave offences should in general attract other than long sentences, but past experience has led us to believe in two important principles of sentencing. This is not original, radical or revolutionary. In essence, it fits in with many Court of Appeal judgments over the years. First, the court should send to prison only those whose offending behaviour makes any other course unacceptable. Secondly, those who are sent to prison should stay there no longer than is strictly necessary. The amendment is designed to meet the Government’s objective on matters of rehabilitation. We should do this by avoiding the unintended increase in prison sentences. This would be an important discipline that would help against that unintended consequence. This probing amendment would make it possible for my noble friend the Minister to discuss the merit of our proposal with the Sentencing Council and to examine the possibility of setting up some indicators so that the process is adequately monitored.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
My Lords, I support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Marks. As he said, the current position is that an offence has to be so serious that a custodial sentence is imposed, but his amendment would put in place a presumption in favour of a community sentence. The additional part of his amendment is that special reasons have to be given in open court. My question to the noble Lord, Lord Marks, if it is appropriate to ask him, is: what might those reasons be? Would a breach of previous community orders be a special reason for it to be announced in open court that a custodial sentence will be passed? While I am sympathetic to the objectives of the amendment, I am open-minded about how it will be applied in court.
The Government’s impact statement highlighted the potential risk of increasing custodial sentences of less than 12 months because the sentencers themselves know that there will be a licence followed by a supervision period, which might be attractive to them. The noble Lord, Lord Marks, referred to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, making that same point in an earlier debate. My experience is that magistrates and district judges are always reluctant to commit an offender to prison and understand very well the current wording of the guidelines that an offence has to be so serious that only custody will do.
Nevertheless, it is an interesting amendment, which, as I said, I support. It will be for the practicalities of the Government to see whether there is a change in sentencing behaviour if the Bill goes through unamended. I am doubtful whether sentencers will change their behaviour; there will not be more custodial sentences because of the additional supervision period. Can the noble Lord, Lord Marks, give an example of the special reasons, to which he alluded, that might be appropriate for a custodial sentence?
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, before my noble friend replies, having been asked direct questions, perhaps I may reply briefly. I envisage that there would be a wide range of special reasons. As the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, suggested, they would include a history of breach of previous supervision requirements. However they might also encompass areas of special risk to do with the particular offender. The shortcoming of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 at which this amendment is aimed is that under Section 152 only the seriousness of the offences is taken into account. There may well be reasons to do with the offender that could justify a custodial sentence, but the point of the amendment is to make it quite clear that in the absence of such special reasons, whether they are to do with history, special risk or other reasons, the presumption in favour of a community sentence should apply.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, I have found this to be an extremely helpful debate, and as the movers have indicated that it is a probing amendment, I will take it away to consider, but in my reply I will make it clear that we do not think the amendment is necessary at this moment.
I understand the points that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has quoted, and that my noble friend Lord Dholakia mentioned, that the Bill might encourage judges to go for the best of both worlds by passing a short sentence that will immediately qualify for the 12 months of rehabilitation. I certainly share my noble friend Lord Dholakia’s view that short sentences are too short to rehabilitate, but just long enough to disrupt, the life of the person sent to prison and introduce them, perhaps for the first time, to all the bad influences that can be found in a prison. On the other hand, as the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, rightly recognised, we face media and—to a certain extent—public opinion that sees community sentences as somehow softer than prison sentences. Part of the aim of our reforms is to position community sentencing and the rehabilitation process that goes with it more positively in the eyes of the public, so that they have greater confidence in it.
I was grateful for the words of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, in his intervention, because there are two things that become one. He put firmly on the record that in his experience, judges will not be tempted to go down the road that my noble friends fear. I think that he has said before—certainly other magistrates have—that sometimes for a repeat offender or somebody whose circumstances make setting them back into the community even more dangerous to themselves and the community, a short custodial sentence can be of benefit, so the idea of ruling them out entirely is not the way forward.
As my noble friend has explained, Amendment 24B would create a new clause in an attempt to bolster what is often referred to as the “custodial threshold”: that is, the test set out in Section 152(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, to which my noble friend referred, with which all courts must comply when imposing a custodial sentence.
It is perhaps worth noting again what Section 152 says:
“The court must not pass a custodial sentence unless it is of the opinion that the offence, or combination of the offence and one or more offences associated with it, was so serious that neither a fine alone nor a community sentence can be justified for the offence.”
It is an onerous test. It means that a court cannot impose a custodial sentence unless the offence was so serious that a fine or community sentence will not do; in fact, it cannot be justified. It is also worth noting that this test has to be read in conjunction with Section 153 of the 2003 Act. That requires a court when imposing a custodial sentence to ensure that the sentence is for the shortest term commensurate with the seriousness of the offence.
My noble friend’s amendment would add to the existing provisions a requirement, where a court intended to impose a custodial sentence of less than 12 months, that there be “special reasons” which justify the custodial sentence of less than 12 months. We have already heard in debate that magistrates and judges do not believe that they impose custodial sentences other than as a last resort. It is natural to ask what are these special reasons or circumstances that are not covered by the original test. Could the special reasons relate to a history of previous convictions? If so, the current custodial threshold test already applies because, under Section 143 of the 2003 Act, a court must consider relevant and recent convictions as an aggravating factor which makes the offence more serious. It is seriousness that is the key driver in determining the nature of the sentence and meeting the custodial threshold test.
I suggest to my noble friend that the special reasons he may have in mind must already be considered when the court decides on the sentence and whether a custodial sentence is merited under Section 152. So although of course I appreciate what my noble friend is attempting to achieve—that is, a statutory presumption against sentences of less than 12 months—I am not convinced that the amendment would actually do what is intended.
Let me make the point that the Government do not intend or expect that sentencers will change their current behaviour in any significant way in response to the provisions in the Bill. We do not expect to see an increase in the number of short custodial sentences. Offenders who do not meet the custodial threshold should receive community orders or fines. I hope that noble Lords and noble and learned Lords who have judicial experience will agree that it would be wrong for any judge, and contrary to the provisions of the existing law, if a sentencer decided to “up-tariff” an offender into custody so that they could receive 12 months of supervision.
I should also deal briefly with the second part of the amendment, which would require the court to give an explanation of the special reasons that merited a custodial sentence of less than 12 months. I point out to my noble friend that the current law already requires all courts imposing any sentence of any length to give reasons for the sentence passed. That is contained in Section 174 of the 2003 Act. Invariably, a sentencer will begin their explanation of a custodial sentence by setting out why the offence is so serious that it merits a custodial term. The further provision is, I suggest, unnecessary. I understand the good intentions behind the amendment. No one in this House wants to see short custodial sentences passed for offences that do not justify them, but that is why we have the current threshold test and a right of appeal against sentence.
We need to provide sentencers with a range of sentences in which they can have confidence. That is why we made the changes to community orders in the Crime and Courts Act 2013. We have to stop offenders reoffending to such a degree that they end up having to be considered for short custodial sentences in the first place. We also have to realise that some offenders will merit short custodial sentences. We need to focus on making those sentences more effective at rehabilitating offenders so that not only are they imposed as a last resort, they should be the last sentence that the offender receives.
I acknowledge the efforts of my noble friend on this amendment, but, although I recognise his intention, I ask him to withdraw it. Given the spirit in which it has been moved, I will discuss the matter further with the Lord Chancellor and others, but I suspect that our position as I have just set out will remain unchanged.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for that detailed and helpful response, and for the indication that he will consider the matter with us. The question really is whether the existing safeguards are sufficient in the light of the additional supervision requirement and whether there is ground for the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, that there might be a temptation for sentencers to err. In that spirit, I withdraw the amendment at this stage.
Lord Beecham
Lord Beecham
My Lords, this amendment is the identical twin of Amendment 7A, which I moved last week in relation to Clause 2. As I said then, the effect would be to require the necessary supervision to be carried out either by a directly employed public service provider or by a person commissioned by such a public sector provider. I do not think it is necessary to rehearse the arguments again. I suppose that it is unlikely that the ministerial sinner will be in a repentant mood this afternoon, but I live in hope and I beg to move.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am like St Augustine; I want to give up sin, but not yet. I will deal briefly with Amendment 24C. It would mean that the responsible officer for the supervision of offenders subject to community orders and suspended sentence orders would have to be a public sector probation provider. As the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said, this is essentially the same amendment applied to community orders as the noble Lord tabled on the first day of Committee for supervision of custodial sentences. As I said then, the Government are committed to providing new supervision for those released from short custodial sentences. To achieve this aim, we, as a responsible Government, have to be able to afford this additional supervision. To do that, we need to reduce the current costs of dealing with offenders.
We also want to encourage innovation among providers of probation services dealing with this group of offenders serving community sentences and suspended sentences. It is important to ensure that we continue to improve the reoffending rates of this group of offenders, as well as of those serving custodial terms. Paying providers in full only where they are successful at reducing reoffending will not only make savings; it will drive down our reoffending rates. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, will withdraw his amendment now that I have clarified what the Government’s intentions are.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for the repetition of the stance that he took the other night. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Woolf
“(2A) In sections 177(1) and 190(1) (requirements that may be imposed as part of a community order or suspended sentence order) after paragraph (j) insert—
“(ja) a restorative justice requirement (as defined by section 212A),”.”
Lord Woolf
My Lords, this amendment is grouped with Amendments 27, 27A, 28 and 29. The group is separated by Amendment 26, which is to be moved by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and others after we have dealt with these amendments. As I have said before, I welcome this Bill’s emphasis on the rehabilitation of offenders. Those who have been involved in the criminal justice system as long as I have are in no doubt that reoffending is one of the most serious problems that it faces. We have been, until now, extremely unsuccessful in tackling it. Here and there, we have made some progress, often because of initiatives not of the big battalions but of the small ones, which concentrate on conduct directed towards the offender which changes his habits. We know, from experience, that employment, the home and the family are all important elements in determining whether reoffending will take place.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I commend again the noble and learned Lord for the tenacity with which he has pursued this important area of penal policy. I am entirely in agreement with the thrust of his amendments and I am sure that they will commend themselves to other Members of your Lordships’ House. However, I have one difficulty with his amendment.
Lord Woolf
I hope I will be forgiven if I intervene to say that, with great perception, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, seeks in Amendment 27A to alter the proposal in Amendment 27. I should make it clear that I support Amendment 27A in preference to my original proposal.
Lord Beecham
I am obliged for the noble and learned Lord’s intervention but perhaps I should decode what is happening for the benefit of those who do not understand—it took me some time—the effect of the amendment as originally drafted.
As originally drawn, the amendment would have removed from Clause 13(7) reference to,
“activities whose purpose is reparative”,
and substituted “restorative justice activities”.
The two things are not the same. Reparative justice will involve doing work, for example, of the kind that I came across when involved in a justice reinvestment project in the north-east. In fact, there were two significant projects: one led to the effective reconstruction of Albert Park in Middlesbrough and the other at Saltwell Park in Gateshead, both Victorian parks which had become very run down. Offenders were brought in to work on these and benefited from being taught skills, which it is to be hoped will be useful later. They made a visible contribution to the communities which they had damaged by their offences. It was a very good scheme.
Taking that out would exclude work of that kind. As the noble and learned Lord said, Amendment 27A reinstates that in addition to restorative justice so that the complete range of options would remain available. I hope that the Minister will accept the noble and learned Lord’s amendment, as amended by my restoration of the paragraph in the original Bill. It would be extremely disappointing, given that the Government are supportive of the principle of restorative justice, if statutory recognition was not incorporated in the Bill at this time and the opportunity not taken in its passage to lend weight to the growing support up and down the country for the concept in our system.
Baroness Hamwee
Not having come with a long speech, I want to register my support and that of my noble friends on these Benches for these amendments and, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham said, the growing support for the concept of restorative justice. The more I hear about that, the more it seems a very important part of rehabilitation. It has many aspects and one of those fits neatly within the thrust of this Bill and in the new Section 200A. Among the things it can achieve is redirecting offenders who can be described, as many noble Lords have done at previous stages, as having chaotic lives. Being able to put the chaos of one’s life into the perspective that this kind of activity can help achieve is an important objective of rehabilitation.
Lord McNally
My Lords, first, I pay tribute to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, for the very long campaign he has fought to put restorative justice on a statutory footing. Although I am sure he is right to pay tribute to and thank the Opposition for their support, it is also worth pointing out that it was this Government who actually did that. In the battle to do so, I pay tribute to the former Prisons Minister, Crispin Blunt, who joined battle with me within the department to make sure that we got the first foothold as far as restorative justice is concerned.
I am glad that we have the eagle eye of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. Of course, reparative and restorative justice are not the same thing. I fully associate myself with the points that the noble Lord made about the value of reparative justice. It can be very significant, in not only what it does but also getting the confidence of the community—the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. The community sees a derelict site cleaned up or some piece of community work restored as part of reparative justice and has confidence that it is worth while.
I also fully agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, about what we are trying to do in this Bill. We are doing a little smoke and mirrors with the money we have available—I freely confess that—but even if we had all the money we wanted, it would still require that change in culture to which the noble and learned Lord referred.
I hope that we can make this work and carry it through. I am not sure whether we will ever carry the great British press with us. My office always gets very perturbed when I attack the British press. I merely observe that the regular comments on this area of policy always leave me in despair, not about humanity but about journalists.
Lord Woolf
My Lords, I apologise for my failure to refer to Amendment 27A when I spoke to the amendment that was being moved. I should not have made that mistake.
I am very conscious that my successor as the Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, is in his place. If my memory is correct, one of the first things that he did on taking office was to get himself clad as though he was an offender and go off with other offenders to do reparative duties. On that occasion he had very favourable mentions in the media, which were fully deserved, although I understand that he did not find the reparative tasks particularly demanding. The noble and learned Lord has strange tastes when it comes to spending what leisure time he has; he continually indulges in activities that I would have thought were really not for Lords Chief Justice or, may I say, budding presidents of the Supreme Court.
That brings me to the only point that I wish to mention specifically in respect of what the Minister has so ably said about the proposed amendments: wherever possible, you always need clarity and certainty. The fact that I would not have the imagination to do some of the things that the noble and learned Lord does perhaps indicates why, even when you have experienced judges, it is a good thing to have clarity and certainty. Therefore, I ask the Minister to reconsider the amendments carefully and, if he sees fit at a later stage, to come back and tell the House that he welcomes them. That would give a very good signal to the world outside about the seriousness of this Government in tackling reoffending. In the circumstances, I am happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“(1A) In giving any instructions to the offender under subsection (1), the responsible officer shall have regard to—
(a) the suitability of any appointments having regard to any caring commitments the offender may have and the compatibility of activities with the offender’s family circumstances;(b) the suitability of activities and place specified under subsection (5) if the offender is responsible for a child and it is desirable that the child accompanies the offender.”
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, I will speak also to Amendment 30 in the same group. Amendment 26 concerns rehabilitation activity requirements, which are essentially instructions to an offender to attend appointments or to participate in activities. These are imposed as part of a community order or a suspended sentence order by a responsible officer, defined for these purposes as a probation service provider.
This amendment will ensure that such requirements do not conflict unnecessarily with the caring commitments or family circumstances of the offender concerned. That object will be achieved by requiring the responsible officer to have regard first to,
“the suitability of any appointments having regard to any caring commitments the offender may have and the compatibility of activities with the offender’s family circumstances”,
and, importantly, by,
“the suitability of activities and place specified … if the offender is responsible for a child and it is desirable that the child accompanies the offender”.
This may well be the case for people who have responsibility for children, cannot simply leave them and have to take them along to the activity.
Amendment 30 is designed to achieve a similar outcome for any other requirement that might be imposed as a result of such an order. It would amend Section 217 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003. That section currently requires the court to ensure that such requirements avoid conflict with, under Section 217(1)(a), “the offender’s religious beliefs” and, under Section 217(1)(b), the times at which the offender,
“normally works or attends any educational establishment”.
It would be entirely reasonable and desirable to add to that list of matters that are not to be conflicted with a requirement that orders avoiding conflict with the offender’s caring responsibilities. That is what Amendment 30 seeks to achieve.
These amendments are consistent with the Government’s desire to ensure that rehabilitation measures in this legislation are targeted particularly at helping women offenders, who often face particular difficulties within the criminal justice system. They would make the Bill more sensitive to those difficulties and to the demands of family life. The amendments are primarily aimed at avoiding conflict for women offenders who are the subject of community orders or suspended sentence orders, and are designed to enable them to fulfil the requirements of such orders without making it unduly difficult for them to meet the demands of caring for families. However, the amendments are gender-neutral, as you would expect, because many male offenders have similar commitments. It is important that appointments and activities can be arranged in a way that does not interfere unduly with family commitments, be those commitments to take children to school, to be at home when children are at home without alternative childcare or to look after elderly or disabled relatives. The same goes for all requirements, whether unpaid work requirements, curfew requirements or any others. I beg to move.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
My Lords, I support the general thrust of the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Marks. As he said, they would oblige a responsible officer to have regard to the offender’s caring commitments when arranging a community sentence.
My understanding of the present position is that in probation reports, done by what will be the National Probation Service, probation officers will take into account personal circumstances when making recommendations to the court on the likely sentence. It would be the responsibility of the responsible officer that the sentence is completed as required by the court and in a timely manner.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank both noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, in particularly my noble friend Lord Marks for highlighting in his contribution the importance of both family matters and, of course, sensitive issues of faith, which is also relevant to a fair percentage of our prison population.
This group of amendments would place an additional duty on responsible officers instructing offenders under the new rehabilitation activity requirement created by Clause 13, and would also place a new duty on the courts when imposing community orders and suspended orders more generally. To address first the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, about organisations’ or providers’ commercial interests right away, it would be wrong and totally inappropriate for those to supersede any other offender requirements. The whole point of rehabilitation is putting the offender at the centre.
I do not agree with the noble Lord’s three cohorts—the groups he put together. Even the no-hopers are worth a try. We need to ensure, in all the reforms we put forward, that anyone—even people whom society at large perceives as no-hopers—is worth a try. We should seek to assist them to become productive citizens of society.
Noble Lords may also find it helpful if I briefly explain what Clause 13 provides. It creates a new rehabilitation activity requirement that will combine key elements of the existing supervision and activity requirements available under community orders and suspended sentence orders. At present Section 213 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 provides for a supervision requirement that may be imposed as part of either order. The requirement involves attending appointments during the period of the order with either the responsible officer or another person determined by the responsible officer. Section 201 of the 2003 Act provides for an activity requirement as part of either order. Under an activity requirement, an offender must first, present himself to a person specified in the order for a specified number of days, and secondly, participate in activities specified in the order for a specified number of days.
Clause 13 repeals both those requirements and merges them into a single rehabilitation activity requirement. Under the new requirement, offenders must comply with any instructions given by their responsible officer to attend appointments, participate in activities, or both. These instructions must be given with a view to promoting the offender’s rehabilitation, although they can serve other purposes as well. The effect of the clause is to allow the probation provider who is the responsible officer, rather than the court, to decide the exact details of what appointments or activities the offender should take part in to maximise their chances of turning away from crime.
Amendment 26 would require a responsible officer who is instructing an offender to attend appointments or participate in activities under this new requirement to take account of the offender’s family circumstances and, of course, any caring responsibilities that the offender might have. That would mean ensuring that appointments were suitable, that activities were compatible with the offender’s family circumstances, and that any place to which the offender was sent to take part in activities was suitable if the offender needed to take a child with them.
Amendment 30, although inserted into the clause about programme requirements, would apply to all requirements under any community order or suspended sentence order. It adds to the provision in Section 217 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 that already requires a court to avoid, as far as possible, any conflict with the offender’s religious beliefs and any interference with his or her work or education. The amendment would add to Section 217 a new duty requiring the court to avoid—again as far as is practicable—any interference with the offender’s ability to carry out any caring responsibilities that he or she might have.
As I am sure that noble Lords will appreciate, the criminal justice system at all points endeavours to accommodate the personal circumstances of an offender. Courts will always sentence an offender in the light of their individual circumstances, together with the circumstances of the offence. Indeed, the law requires, where a court imposes a community order, that the requirements chosen must be, in the court’s opinion, the most suitable for the offender.
In addition to these general requirements, I can assure all noble Lords that there are already important safeguards in place to address childcare and other caring responsibilities where an offender is sentenced by the courts. These issues are covered in the assessments carried out when compiling pre-sentence and other reports that are considered by the courts before sentencing.
Probation staff will also respond to requests by the courts for specific information about family circumstances and courts will sometimes adjourn briefly so that such issues can be considered. If an offender is reluctant to divulge information about their children for fear that they may be taken into care, a post-sentence interview will often elicit the necessary information or the offender might tell their lawyer. If necessary, liaison will take place with local authority safeguarding authorities, or social security emergency duty teams, to safeguard the child or vulnerable person in question. In addition, the Sentencing Council has made it clear in its guidelines that:
“Where the offender is the sole or primary carer of the victim or other dependants, this potentially should be taken into account for sentencing purposes, regardless of whether the offender is male or female”.
Both courts and responsible officers are public authorities within the terms of the Human Rights Act 1998. This means that they are required to balance the need for the offender to attend appointments and take part in activities in order to secure his rehabilitation against his right under the Human Rights Act to respect for his private and family life. This point was well made by my noble friend Lord Marks.
What this adds up to is a clear indication that the courts already take all possible steps to avoid, as far as is practicable, any interference with the offender’s ability to discharge any caring responsibilities that he or she may have. For this reason, I argue that Amendment 30 is unnecessary. With these assurances and clarifications, I hope that my noble friend will be minded to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, I am again grateful for that helpful explanation of the Government’s position. The difficulty, as I see it, is something that I hope that we can consider between now and Report. As the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, pointed out, we are entering an entirely new era in the provision of probation services. The Minister is entirely right to say that best practice and sentencing guidelines require the courts and responsible officers—who are now in the public sector probation service—to have regard to caring responsibilities. However, there is a risk that in the new regime, which is a new world for probation provision, there will be a departure from best practice or, at any rate, a temptation to depart from it. I hope that, by amending the Bill in a similar way to our amendments, we could send out the message that family commitments have to be taken into account just as faith and education commitments are. In those circumstances, I invite the Government to consider these amendments carefully and sympathetically before we come back. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, my intention is purely to probe for information. Clause 14 seeks to amend Section 202 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 which, as the Explanatory Notes make clear, is about programme requirements for community orders and suspended sentence orders. As drafted, the clause removes from the Act the provision that an offender can only participate in accredited programmes in places approved by the local probation board or local provider of probation services. My purpose here is to obtain from the Minister an elucidation of what the implications of the amendment to Section 202 of the 2003 Act would actually be. What sort of programmes will be encompassed within the new arrangements? Will they be accredited and who will the providers be? It is as simple as that. If the noble Lord is not able to deal with those questions today I would quite understand, because the clause is not particularly revealing of its purpose. I would be happy to receive a letter which could be placed in the Library, if that would be of assistance.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for that clarification. His reasoning may not have been clear when he notified his intention to oppose the Question that the clause stand part, but it was in his explanation. It may be helpful to reiterate what Clause 14 intends to do. Currently an accredited programme can take place only in premises that have been approved by a probation trust or other provider of probation services. There is therefore a slightly redundant step built into the process for delivering accredited programmes, whereby trusts currently have to set up premises for programmes and then approve those premises themselves before courts can require offenders to attend. Clause 14 removes this requirement. Although probation providers will still want to satisfy themselves that a programme’s premises are suitable for those attending, as a result of the amendment there will no longer be a formal requirement in law for them to ratify or sign that off internally before courts can require offenders to attend.
Parliament has already approved a change in the law that means that the responsible officer, who is the person responsible for delivering the requirement, now chooses the accredited programme that the offender must follow. This was previously in the gift of the court. This change was made by the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 and commenced in December last year. As a consequence, the court no longer specifies where the offender must go to participate in the programme but simply imposes a programme requirement and sets the number of days on which the offender must take part.
The detail of the requirement is now in the hands of the provider, who is best placed to know which programme is the most likely to promote rehabilitation. This also means that where it emerges that a different programme would work better—for example, the offender starts on a cognitive programme but it becomes clear that a domestic violence programme would be better—the responsible officer can switch the programme without taking the order back to court. The amendment in Clause 14 merely furthers the principle of operational discretion for providers by removing the largely redundant requirement for formal approval of a place as suitable for offenders subject to a programme requirement.
In closing, I reassure noble Lords that the Government see a continued place for accredited programmes under our new framework for delivering services for offenders. Accredited programmes are evidence-based and developed from the academic literature on what works. Where interventions have a substantial degree of evidence for their effectiveness, it is important that we build on that success. Those advising the courts through pre-sentence reports will continue to be able to recommend a programme requirement where a particular intervention is available locally, and where probation professionals believe that it is the right way of dealing with the causes of an individual’s offending. Based on that clarification, I urge that Clause 14 should stand part of the Bill.
Lord Beecham
I am very grateful to the Minister for his clarification. It occurs to me to ask whether it would be envisaged that a provider of services in respect of the premises to which the noble referred could require, for example, repair work to be carried out for the benefit of the provider. That potentially would create a conflict of interest. I do not ask for an off-the-cuff response, but I would be grateful if the Minister would look at it.
Baroness Hamwee
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I will speak also to Amendment 32. I suspect that on Amendment 31 I am in for a little more teasing from my noble friend Lord McNally. The noble Lord shakes his head; that is a shame. In that case I am in for more teasing from the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad.
Clause 16 would insert a new section into the Criminal Justice Act 2003, with regard to the permission that is required before an offender who is the subject of a relevant order may change residence. In new Section 220A(4) we are told that there are two grounds available to either the officer or the court, which in effect is the appeal body here from a responsible officer’s decision. I would like to be completely sure that these are the only grounds. I am sure that they are, but I wanted to make the point.
We also wanted to add another provision which would, in effect, alter the presumption in these circumstances. When refusal was given, there would not simply have to be an opinion that a change of residence would be likely to prevent compliance with a requirement or hinder rehabilitation; it would go further. The purpose of the requirement or the rehabilitation would have to be significantly less likely to be achieved if the offender were to change residence. The reason is that a restriction on moving one’s home or one’s household—possibly having to move because of family problems such as the offender and partner splitting up, or because there are job prospects somewhere easier to reach from a new home—are all extremely important and part of rehabilitation. I am not convinced that every possible circumstance is covered by subsection (4)(a) and (b) of new Section 220A. I beg to move.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, raised some interesting points about the role of the responsible officer when an offender applies to change their residence. When considering this amendment, I immediately thought of all the potential problems that might arise. There is also the general point about the level of independence of judgment of the responsible officer when considering these applications. Two questions came to my mind. What would be the position if somebody with a series of convictions for domestic violence wanted to move into a house with a new girlfriend? That might hinder rehabilitation; it would be a judgment that would have to be made by the responsible officer. I do not know what the result might be. I am not sure that the responsible officer would necessarily be told that that was the situation.
Conversely, what would happen if the girlfriend wanted to move into the offender’s current address? If told about it, the responsible officer may have a responsibility to the new girlfriend to ensure that she is informed of the offender’s previous convictions. These are difficult matters which need a lot of expertise to be able to deal with them and there needs to be guidance—maybe non-statutory guidance—for the officers. In general, I am sympathetic to the amendments which the noble Baroness has moved, but I am conscious that there may well be many problems with making those decisions.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Hamwee for moving her amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for his contribution.
Before responding to the substance of the two amendments, it may be helpful if I briefly set out the purpose of Clause 16. In essence, it would place a new duty on offenders serving community orders or suspended sentence orders to seek permission from their responsible officer or from a court before changing their residence. It replaces the existing requirement for offenders simply to notify their responsible officers after they have moved. It is intended to deal with cases where an offender moving from one probation trust puts at risk the effectiveness of their rehabilitation. For example, a move to a different area may bring to an end an established relationship with the offender’s supervisor. Instead, they may have to start again with a new supervisor from a different probation trust or, in the future, a different rehabilitation provider.
Noble Lords will know that the personal relationship between offenders and their supervisors is important to reducing reoffending. Evidence suggests that offenders with a positive relationship with their offender manager are less likely to offend. This will be particularly important with a move to a through-the-gate model of support, where an offender may have had contact with the same mentor or supervisor before and after release. Another example is a case where a specialist programme that the offender is attending is not available in the area that the offender is proposing to move to. In such cases, a court or responsible officer may consider that ending participation in that programme may set back the offender’s rehabilitation.
Clearly, there are many reasons to support, rather than prevent, an offender changing residence. For example, an offender may be moving to live with family or to take up a new job. We recognise that there will be many cases where a move would not have any negative impact on rehabilitation or on compliance with the order. For example, it may be a move of only a short distance which does not prevent the offender attending required appointments. Even with a long-distance move, programmes may be available in the new area that are equally as appropriate as those in the old area. We recognise this and have built it into the way that the clause is structured. The clause limits the circumstances in which a court or responsible officer can refuse permission to change residence to only two scenarios: where the move is likely to prevent the offender complying with a requirement of the order; or where the move would hinder the offender’s rehabilitation.
Amendment 31 would make explicit that these are the only grounds on which a court or responsible officer can refuse permission to change residence. However, the effect of the way that the clause is drafted is to provide already for these two circumstances, and only these two circumstances, to be grounds for refusal. I am very happy to make that clear to my noble friend Lady Hamwee. I hope that, on that basis, she will see fit to withdraw the amendment.
The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, who always comes to these matters with great experience and expertise, gave the example of an offender who had been committed for domestic violence. This situation would require a subjective assessment to be made and it would be for the responsible officer to weigh it up in the risk assessment. This is the sort of decision that professionals make on a daily basis. I listened with great care to the noble Lord’s suggestion about looking at the guidance. I am sure that we will look at it, and I take on board the comments that he made in that respect.
Amendment 32 would provide that a court or responsible officer cannot refuse an application to change residence unless the offender’s rehabilitation or compliance with a requirement of the order would be significantly less likely to be achieved. I hope that I can reassure my noble friend on a number of points. First, even if a move is likely to prevent compliance or would hinder rehabilitation, courts and responsible officers will still have to balance this with other factors. For the purposes of this clause, both courts and responsible officers, whether probation staff or from the voluntary or private sectors, are public authorities within the terms of the Human Rights Act 1998. This means that they are required to balance the impact of the proposed move on rehabilitation or compliance with the order against the offender’s interests in making such a move. They will have to consider the availability of rehabilitative support in the area that the offender wishes to move to, and the extent to which an offender could comply with a requirement in the new area. They will also have to consider the offender’s Article 8 rights. For example, an unemployed offender may wish to move to take up a new job or for family reasons—for example, if their partner is taking up a new job or if a parent is unwell and they need to provide them with care or support. In many cases, factors like these would outweigh concerns about compliance with a requirement or continued rehabilitation. It would be open to a responsible officer to take the order back to court to ask for it to be varied or revoked to suit the offender’s new circumstances.
I would also point out that the clause provides the safeguard of allowing offenders to apply to the court for a decision in cases where the responsible officer has refused permission to change residence, so in cases where offenders feel there are compelling reasons to move which outweigh any potential impact on compliance with a requirement or rehabilitation, they would be able to apply directly to the court to reconsider their case. I hope that these points reassure my noble friend, and, indeed, all noble Lords, that this clause provides a means of supporting the continuity of rehabilitation in cases where a change of residence could put it at risk without impinging on offenders’ wider family or work commitments. With those reassurances, I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, of course, I shall not pursue the amendment. The points made by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, are very interesting, but I do not think that my amendment would alter the situation either way. He has no doubt made us all start to look at this from a different perspective, which is extremely helpful. The problems raised go wider than just this situation.
When the Minister started to explain some of the reasons that might be behind a decision here, I rather felt that we were going a little close to what might be for the convenience of the provider rather than to the benefit of the offender. I fully accept the importance of the relationship between the offender and the individual who is undertaking the supervision, but that could easily tip over from a company looking at this from a commercial point of view to what might tick the right boxes for that provider.
I was glad to hear the Minister say that there might be many reasons to support a move, but the provisions of Article 8 of the Human Rights Act would seem to provide higher obstacles to a challenge on the part of an offender than would be the case if something of the sort of my amendment on the issue of balance were written into the clause. The amendment would give much more straightforward, less expensive grounds for appeal, as it were, from the decision of the responsible officer to the court. Of course, Article 8 will apply whether we say so or not, but I know that the Minister would accept that praying it in aid to the extent of a challenge to a decision is quite heavy. I will read the Minister’s explanation, as well as having listened to it, but for the time being at any rate, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Woolf
“Provision for female offenders
(1) Section 3 of the Offender Management Act 2007 is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (2) insert—
“(2A) Arrangements under subsection (2) shall require providers of probation services to make provision for the delivery of services for female offenders which take account of the particular needs of women.”
(3) After subsection (5) insert—
“(5A) Arrangements under subsection (5) shall make provision for the delivery of services for female offenders which take account of the particular needs of women.””
Lord Woolf
I have the advantage of moving this amendment with the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. It deals with provision for female offenders, which is another area in which the criminal justice system has slowly—painfully so in this case—moved forward to recognising that female offenders have particular needs. The recognition of those needs, which are very great and cannot be disputed, is of the greatest importance if we are to achieve the purposes of the Bill with regard to avoiding reoffending.
There will always be a greater risk of females committing offences if their particular needs have not been taken into account. Of late, great strides have been made—I pay credit to the Government for this—in trying to give positive attention to this problem. There is now a Minister who has particular responsibilities here. Those in the criminal justice system who know her have great confidence in her, and I apprehend that what the amendment seeks to do is something the spirit of which both the department and the Government as a whole would support.
It is something that was considered very ably by the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, in her well known report dealing with female offenders, which has not been given sufficient attention until now. I hope that one result of the new approach indicated by the Offender Rehabilitation Bill will be to enable the Government to acknowledge the importance of that report and give effect to its provisions, as suggested in these clauses. They require that the Offender Management Act 2007 should be amended to require providers of probation services to make provision for the delivery of services for female offenders that take account of particular needs of women with regard to Section 3(2) and (5) of the 2007 Act.
It would be a huge encouragement to those who have been involved in trying to improve the facilities and arrangements for female offenders if this amendment were to be accepted. I hope the Minister will give it careful consideration in due course. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and, in particular, the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, drew attention to the importance of this at Second Reading. I mentioned the matter as well. I hope that enough has been said on this subject in recent times to enable the Minister to respond positively to these proposals. I beg to move.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to support the noble and learned Lord Woolf’s amendment, which is an important one. The best thing about this whole Bill is the emphasis on keeping people out of prison if you possibly can, dealing with their problems and the rehabilitation required to get them back into society, where they can play a useful role. It is very much at the heart of what we are trying to achieve.
However, I have to say that we are all puzzled about why women and their special needs are not part of the original Bill. They have been rather brushed to one side. The document, Transforming Rehabilitation: A Strategy for Reform, notes that quite a high proportion of the consultees themselves specifically wanted the special needs of women to be delivered on. The more one thinks about it, the more surprising it is that women have been put to one side, at least for the moment, despite the fact that the strategy makes the point also made by the Prison Reform Trust, with all its expertise, that,
“the review of the women’s custodial estate … will also strengthen services for women released from prison”.
However, it does not go on to explain how that will be done.
I want to emphasise several points before I sit down. Although I accept entirely the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, that carers come from both sexes, the vast majority of those caring for the children in a family and the heads of single-parent households are women. We know that many women prisoners themselves come from chaotic backgrounds and are likely to be have been abused in their own childhoods. As regards drug trafficking, quite a number of them—certainly the ones I have met in women’s prisons—have been used as mules for the purpose of transporting drugs at the request of their partners. All this shows that the one thing that must not happen, if it is humanly possible—of course there are exceptions where prison must play its part—is to send women to prison. It should be the last resort because it is the children who suffer. Often in such circumstances, the children have to be taken into care because the family home is broken up or the landlord can no longer accept the household.
I hope that we will be given an explanation of why specific attention has not been paid to women’s needs in this Bill. I know that we have been told that we will be given something later, but not taking these issues into account as the various plans unfold is something that I and others find puzzling and rather worrying. I shall give an example. A women’s prison is to be closed down because it is to be used to provide for the special needs of young offenders. That is fair enough, because those young offenders may well have special needs, but yet again one more place will no longer be available for women. No doubt it means that if they have to be sent to prison, they will be located even further away from their families.
I hope that all this will be taken into account and that we will be given an explanation of why women have been left to one side. I think that we need this more than anything else. I do not believe for a moment that the Government are thinking of women as second-class citizens, and yet that is very much the impression given by the fact that at this point, when we are looking at an important and valuable Bill, their needs are not being taken into account.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I, too, support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, on this amendment. Like my noble friend Lady Howe, I am sorry that yet again we should be coming to an important Bill like this and raising the issue of women as something that has been admitted, rather than actually trying to discuss in more detail exactly what should be done with and for women.
We have discussed frequently women in prison, but we have not discussed women in the community so frequently. On several occasions when it has come up, I mentioned the need for specialist women offender teams around the country. We have also mentioned the possibility of a women’s justice board, which would be responsible, like the children’s justice board for children, for looking after both women in custody and women in the community. I hope that the Minister will recommend to his colleague, to whom the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, referred, that she should look very carefully at this because there will be a need for somebody to keep oversight over the cohorts of women around the country who are being subjected to myriad different providers, and there will need to be consistency as well as quality in the content of what is done for them, so I hope account is taken of that in considering this amendment.
Baroness Corston
My Lords, I am delighted to support the amendment tabled in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. It is 15 months now since we had the first vote specifically on this issue that I can remember. At that time there was a tied vote and we were promised a strategy. Subsequent attempts to amend legislation to provide for gender-specific services have failed.
My reading of the current government policy on transforming rehabilitation is that we are going back 10 years, because we are going to have an offender strategy that can be tweaked for women, rather than asking what kind of strategic priorities we need for women offenders. Those are missing. We have a two-page statement, not a strategy, from the Government about what is going to happen for women. If this was a serious undertaking, this kind of amendment would have formed part of the Bill. It would not be up to Members of the House to try to put it into the Bill.
The other thing that I found very troubling during the course of my review was how many women knew that their lives were spiralling out of control but knew that there was nowhere they could go to get assistance. That is what was so amazing about the seed-corn money, although it was £15 million, that the previous Government put into keeping women out of prison by providing women’s centres as alternatives to custody. I know that the Minister has visited at least one, and I am sure that noble Lords who are interested in this area will have done the same. You hear stories of women who have gone through a period of the most amazing redemption because they have had these gender-specific services from people who understand the reality of women’s lives and the centrality of family and children. They understand that when women go to prison, unlike men, there is no one to keep the home fires burning, and they usually lose their children and do not get them back.
All these issues can be dealt with easily if you make provision statutorily for gender-specific services, because people have to think about it. It is not a question of women being an add-on. I accept that, given the overall prison population—there are about 86,000 men in prison and 4,000 women—you could say that women are an add-on. However, given that some 17,000 children a year are affected by their mothers’ imprisonment, and a significant proportion of those children end up in prison themselves, such provision seems to me to be the most important preventive strategy. I cannot for the life of me understand why the Government are so reluctant to have this in the Bill, because it would be a matter of pride to do so. I know that the Minister will tell me how much has happened, and I will listen with patience but with some irritation, because, given my experience in the 21 years since I first set foot in a women’s prison, I know that it will not be enough. So I say to the Government: if this amendment is not accepted, we really want to see something that will work.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Marks spoke on the needs and importance of specific services for women. I hesitate to follow the noble Baroness because I cannot be nearly as powerful as she was, but I cannot keep silent either. I spoke on the issue on the previous day in Committee. I appreciate that this is a different amendment that addresses a different matter from those that we have looked at before. On short sentences and a period of supervision, I want to make one specific point before I come to the more general. Unless the supervision requirements are appropriate, for all the reasons that we have talked about, the likelihood of a breach of the requirements by the offender must be higher, and that will mean that she is back in custody. That is exactly what we want to avoid.
I know how strongly my noble friend Lord McNally feels about this, and I know that we are going to hear that work is under way, led by his colleague, Helen Grant. However, I will make one point and ask one question. My point is that a marker of some sort should be put down that shows the importance with which this House regards this issue—like the noble Baroness, one finds it difficult to find the words, but they are not specialist services, because they are not an add-on; they are a different group and they need different services. Furthermore, the marker should acknowledge the importance with which this issue is regarded outside this House by, I think, everyone in the offender management penal reform field to whom I have spoken.
My question to my noble friend, who is probably at least as frustrated as I am, is what amendment, if this is not accepted, would put down that marker, get past the Treasury, if that is where the problem is, and not restrict the progress of work done in the MoJ but enable us to make the point? Many noble Lords have put down a string of amendments. If none of those is going to get a tick from the Minister, can he help us—I know that he is on side—by suggesting what would take the matter forward at this stage?
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
My Lords, I, too, cannot remain silent. I am so glad that we are privileged to have the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, to add her voice to this debate. The crucial thing is that we have not managed to listen hard enough before. There is no question that women are different from men. They are not just differently shaped; they have particular needs and they are absolutely specific. We have known this for years. It is possibly boring but quite graphic to look at just a few of the facts and figures. Women serve very short sentences on the whole, with 58% serving six months or less and many only four months, or a matter of weeks. The sentences are for non-violent offences; we do not need to be protected from these women. Some 81% are for shoplifting, and we know that most shoplifting is for food for their children or for drugs. About 60% of the women, in fact, are drug users.
The final thing, which the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, also mentioned, is that the collateral damage of the imprisonment of women is absolutely unquantifiable. If more than 17,000 children a year experience and suffer separation from their mothers, that damage does not really take a lot of imagination to assess. Some terribly graphic reports have been published. For many children, to be separated in this way from their parents is like a bereavement: in their eyes, their mothers have died. This is a terrible thing to have to experience, but this is what we are doing to this primarily non-violent, very vulnerable, group of people from whom we do not need to be protected.
The centres, which we have models for, do exist and it would not be difficult for the Government to develop them along those lines. Several years ago now, when I chaired the Rethinking Crime and Punishment initiative, we funded the Fawcett Society, which issued an important report, before even the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, saying that we should make this specialist provision. We now have one or two important Together Women groups, and a total in this country of about 55 groups altogether, which is not very many. We have the 218 service in Glasgow and the Willow partnership, which we are very proud of, but they are a drop in the ocean compared with the needs of these women. I have been to a women’s centre recently and not only were the women telling me how much their lives were being changed but there were people at the centre who had been users and were now coming back to support other people who were going through the same terrible experience.
The facts and the figures, as well as this kind of affective argument, seem irresistible. I hope that when this amendment talks about the particular needs of women that the Government will have ears to hear and will take this forward immediately.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Corston, to whom tribute has been paid again today—as it is regularly, and rightly, when these matters come up—has spoken with her customary passion about the problem which her report so significantly addressed. The implementation of her report has, alas, as yet not gone far enough by any means. The Committee will, I am sure, agree completely with the thrust of her powerful argument this evening. I certainly support the amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord, to which other noble Lords have spoken.
It should not be necessary, but it still clearly is, to remind your Lordships’ House, and indeed others, of the impact of the present system on women offenders, particularly those who end up in custody. There is a shockingly high rate of suicide and self-harm for those in custody; it is much more significant than it is among male offenders. We are in essence discussing those who perhaps will be in custody for a short time, but even short-term prisoners will be subject to the temptation of self-harm, and that will apply, particularly again, to women. It is important that we look at this issue for a discrete group and take the sort of measures that deal properly with their problems. Although we are concerned today with the provisions of this Bill, that will need to be at various levels of the justice system. I hope we will have a sympathetic and practical response from the noble Lord when he replies.
I take this opportunity to refer again to resettlement prisons and women, because there is an issue here that that was mentioned on the last occasion in Committee and needs stressing: the proposal, which is welcome in principle, for resettlement prisons for those in custody who will be returned to the community to be nearer the place to which they will return. I pointed out that there are only 13 women’s prisons in this country and that there might well be a problem with housing women in a women’s institution close to where they live. It is a significant issue and a concern to organisations involved with this issue. It would be wrong to house women in an essentially male establishment simply because that happens to be nearer and there is no women’s institution in the appropriate geographical area. In fairness, in replying, the Minister did say:
“it is very important that we make the best use of the existing provision for women offenders in the prison estate, both taking account of its size and the geographical spread. We will be consulting with both providers and stakeholders to design the most suitable resettlement arrangements”.—[Official Report, 5/6/13; col. 1270.]
It is only a week since the noble Lord addressed the issue, and we are not expecting a result now, but an indication of the timescale for the consultation and who will be consulted would be welcome and would help to allay concerns about this issue. I hope we can get a sympathetic response.
Lord McNally
My Lords, this has been an extremely useful debate, fully living up to the reputation of this House for taking an ongoing interest in this matter. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, in particular, for bringing it forward. We have had a very useful debate, with a number of interesting points being raised. We already realise that if the problems of women within our criminal justice system could be solved by reports, or even clauses in a Bill, they would have been solved a long time ago.
Perhaps part of the problem, going back to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, mentioned earlier, is that we also need a change in culture and general approach. We have made painfully slow progress in this area. Too many women are in our prisons. It is palpably obvious that women have different problems and needs and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, has reminded us, the collateral damage from the imprisonment of women is substantial. Nothing divides us on this.
I was pleased that the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, made her contribution. I regret that her assessment is that we are going back 10 years. I do not think that we are. That is not the direction of travel. However, we face difficulties. She knows that her report was not implemented in full by her Government because of some of the financial constraints that face this Government. I have never moved away from the fact that her report is a template for action and we will re-examine it in the light of what we are trying to do with these reforms.
Of course, one of the key factors of these reforms is that we are picking up the challenge of dealing with sentences of under 12 months. As has been pointed out on a number of occasions, it is that cohort, if that is the new in-word to use, that has the greatest preponderance of women offenders. So, in that respect, this legislation gives us the opportunity to deal with and respond to the challenges posed by women offenders in a positive way.
A number of points were raised during the debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, mentioned the review that is under way of the women’s estate. The Justice Secretary is conscious that female offenders have particular needs and that the custodial female estate should be organised as effectively as possible to meet gender-specific requirements while delivering best value to the public. That review is expected to report by the end of the summer. I do not know what that means. I was told today that summer has not yet started but it will report by the end of the summer.
Of course, although the implementation of the Corston review has not been complete, the National Offender Management Service accepted 40 of the 43 recommendations. Progress has been impressive, including ending the mandatory full searching of women in reception and moving to a risk-based approach; embedding gender-specific standards for women in all areas of prison regimes; encouraging greater use of specialist accommodation in the community for offenders who pose a high risk of harm; and introducing the women awareness staff programme for those in the criminal justice system and the community who work with female offenders. So, as I say, I do not believe that it is entirely negative.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made a valid point on resettlement accommodation for women. We will look at it and think about it. I agree that the issue poses real problems.
Interestingly—I lift the veil on the workings of the MoJ—we had an interesting discussion this morning when my noble friend Lord Ahmad made exactly the point that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made about whether there is a lacuna in terms of black and ethnic minorities. If we had had the common sense to listen to my noble friend this morning, I would have had a full answer this afternoon. However, it is a point that should be looked at.
The approach of the Bill, which has given rise to some of the issues in the debate today, is, basically, let a thousand flowers bloom. Let us see what comes back in offers, ideas and approaches and consider how we can reshape the service to it. Again lifting the veil on the MoJ, I have argued at times whether the contracts should be women-specific—and, who knows, that might happen—but the reason that that is not there at the beginning is to encourage the widest possible contributions to the debate.
I am sure that no one in the House disagrees with the principle underlying the amendment. As the noble and learned Lord knows, the Government fully share his belief that service providers should take a different approach where there is a need to differentiate provision for female offenders. Where the challenges are different, our response should likewise be different. The Government’s commitment to ensuring the provision of services that recognise and address the specific needs of female offenders where they are different from those of male offenders is set out clearly in our recent Strategic Objectives for Female Offenders strategy. I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, thinks that it is rather sparse, but it does point the way forward.
All probation trusts are required to make appropriate provisions for women in the community to address factors associated with their reoffending. One of the Ministry of Justice equality objectives for the period 2012-16 is the,
“provision of gender-specific community services to improve support for vulnerable women in the criminal justice system”.
Let me make it absolutely clear that this objective will continue to apply as we move to a new framework for supporting offenders in the community.
Our plan is to open up provision to a diverse market of large and small providers. This will provide the opportunity for groups delivering women’s services, which are often small, community-based organisations. Helen Grant, the Minister for Victims and the Courts, and I have visited a number of these women’s centres, as the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, mentioned, and I have been greatly encouraged by the work that we have seen being done with female offenders to help them turn their lives around. I pay tribute to the work of Helen Grant. She has made a significant impact since she came into her role. I know of her commitment to this issue and that she will particularly appreciate the tribute from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf.
I am equally clear that our new framework must encourage providers to work in partnership with other public services to ensure that the broader life-management issues associated with women offending, such as drug misuse, domestic violence and sexual abuse, are addressed. As we design the new commissioning process, the need to ensure the delivery of services that take account of women’s needs and their often troubled backgrounds will be embedded into the new approach.
Service specifications for the commissioning process will include gender-specific outputs, where appropriate, which providers must meet. In order to win contracts, service providers will be required to demonstrate that they understand and will respond to the particular needs of female offenders where these differ from those of men. This will include, for example, taking account of women’s family and caring responsibilities. Many female offenders have children, and any activity requirement clearly must take account of their needs too. There will be a robust approach to evaluating bids to ensure that potential providers are offering innovative and effective services to female offenders.
The payment-by-results approach will in itself be an incentive to providers to take a gender-specific approach where appropriate. Put simply, they will not rehabilitate female offenders unless they take account of and address women’s needs and the factors that lead them to offend. I also reassure noble Lords that those safeguards for female offenders will not end with the commissioning process. Once contracts have been awarded, contract managers within the Ministry of Justice will monitor service delivery to ensure that key outputs for female offenders are being delivered. Service providers will be supported by guidance on working with female offenders and the sorts of provision that are known to be effective.
Lord Woolf
I thank the Minister for that reply. I know the sincerity of what he says, but patience has limits. The House has indicated on previous occasions that it feels that something should appear in statute to make these responsibilities absolutely clear to not only Ministers but everybody concerned with female offenders. Although it is pleasing to hear that some things are happening, I fear that the reassurance that we get from Ministers will not continue to satisfy this House. On Report, I hope there can be something positive proposed to deal with a situation that has been left unacknowledged in legislation for far too long ere now. In the circumstances, I will not press the amendment and beg leave to withdraw it, but this is certainly not the end of the matter.
Lord Beecham
“Veterans’ courts pilot
(1) Veterans’ courts shall be established for the purpose of assisting the rehabilitation of ex-service personnel convicted of offences for which non-custodial sentences could be imposed by the trial court.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, before instituting the provision of veterans’ courts, the Secretary of State shall prescribe by statutory instrument a scheme for such a system, which shall be laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.
(3) Before such system may come into existence, the Secretary of State shall undertake a pilot scheme lasting three years in duration, which shall be independently evaluated to include consultation with magistrates, with the evaluation report laid before Parliament and approved by resolution of both Houses of Parliament.”
Lord Beecham
My Lords, this amendment reflects the suggestion I made at Second Reading that the UK should follow the precedent set by the United States and establish veterans’ courts to supplement the trial courts when ex-service men and women plead guilty to or are convicted of crimes for which non-custodial sentences could be imposed, to assist the rehabilitation of those ex-service personnel. Consistent with earlier amendments moved in relation to payment by results and probation, it calls for such a scheme to be piloted before being eventually embodied in the system on the basis of a resolution to be approved by both Houses of Parliament.
There were two sources of inspiration for this amendment. The first was a report published in 2011 by the North East Regional Joint Health Scrutiny Committee, led by officers of Newcastle City Council, looking at the mental health needs of the ex-service community. The second and in many ways more relevant source was a recent seminar on veterans’ treatment courts organised by Justice for Vets and the Community Covenant—two voluntary sector organisations—and the city council. That took place in Newcastle about three weeks ago.
Estimates of the numbers of UK former service men and women vary. The Department of Health says that there are around 5 million in England while research by King’s College for the Department of Health and MoD in 2010 estimated only 3.8 million, with about 20,000 men and women leaving the forces each year—a figure likely to grow now that the size of the Armed Forces is being reduced. Around 2,000 service men and women a year are discharged on health grounds, with the main issues being adjustment disorders, depression and alcohol abuse. They have a significantly higher rate of post-traumatic stress syndromes than the general population.
Evidence collected by a community veteran mental health project in the north-east suggests that most mental health problems occur after discharge. There are varying estimates, too, of the numbers in the criminal justice and penal systems. NOMS figures are at the lower end of the range, but even if they are right, between 3% and 5% of the national prison population at any one time may be veterans, and many more veterans will have been before the courts and received non-custodial community sentences, probation or suspended sentences, giving a total of around 20,000. The incidence of mental health disorders among the 16-to-44 age group of veterans, their families and carers—the so-called ex-service community—is threefold that for the UK population, and combat stress referrals have risen by two-thirds in the past few years. Early service leavers who are young are particularly vulnerable to emotional and mental health problems and are up to three times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.
The seminar to which I referred was addressed by a former state prosecutor from Little Rock, Arkansas, who has also served in senior positions in the state’s correctional service. He describes himself as “not a bleeding-heart liberal”. With that experience, one might well accept that. Nevertheless, he enthusiastically espouses and promotes the concept of veterans’ courts. The presentation included a video by a senior trial judge who also presides over the veterans’ court in Little Rock.
The US has some 20 million veterans, around five times the number in the UK, and in the last five years every state has established a veterans’ court. The offender can be referred from the trial court and is required to attend monthly so that progress can be assessed. A veteran mentor is appointed and systematic efforts made to help the offender deal with the range of problems with which he or she may have failed to cope. Substance abuse, mental health issues, lack of housing, skills or a job, family breakdown and other problems are addressed by development agencies. Failure to co-operate on the part of the offender leads to recall by the trial court and the possible imposition of a custodial sentence.
The system has proved remarkably successful. The court in Buffalo, New York, which I think was the first to be established, has a 100% success rate in avoiding reoffending. In Minnesota, reoffending rates fell very sharply for 83% of those participating. The potential savings were found to be considerable. In the analogous system of US drug courts around $5,700 was saved per participant. Even Texas, a state not known as a stronghold of bleeding-heart liberals, is looking across the board in its justice system for more cost-effective approaches than imprisonment. When considering the position of men and women who have served in the Armed Forces, it is surely time for us to extend the reach of the military covenant by piloting veterans’ courts here.
I suggest beginning with the north-east. The region is the largest contributor of recruits to the armed services, and veterans comprise around 5% of its prison population of 10,500 against an ONS estimate—which may be on the low side—of 3% nationally. The 2011 scrutiny report produced a series of recommendations covering services for veterans, especially in the mental health arena, which play such a significant part in offending and reoffending. This is influencing the necessary development of a more co-ordinated approach between the relevant agencies. The potential clearly exists to build on this experience so that the MoD, NHS bodies—including health and well-being boards, clinical commissioning groups, the national Commissioning Board and trusts—councils with their responsibilities for housing and social care and the Department for Work and Pensions can, we hope, help to prevent ex-service men and women from offending in the first place. Together with the probation service and the voluntary sector, these bodies will help to prevent reoffending should they fall foul of the law.
Having discussed the problems in terms of policies and statistics, I should like to illustrate their nature by recounting the story of one individual who was helped by probation and About Turn. About Turn is a charitable organisation in the north-east which is headed by a former serviceman and supports veterans.
Mr A comes from a service background with a father who served for more than 20 years in the Army. Now middle-aged, Mr A served for nine years as a young man before leaving the forces at the request of his wife. Unfortunately they divorced and he began to suffer alcohol problems. He joined the TA and a few years ago was employed as a training team instructor but lost the job after a serious accident caused by drinking. Depression and increased drinking exacerbated the effects of medication to treat the ongoing consequences of his accident. He was arrested for a serious offence of violence and was himself severely injured. Thanks to the probation service he was put in touch with this veterans’ charity following a community rehabilitation order and a suspended prison sentence. Under their auspices, with mentoring and support, he has obtained permanent accommodation and recognised qualifications, reduced his alcohol consumption, drug misuse and self-harm, improved his physical health, increased contact with his children and ex-wife and has avoided reoffending. He has engaged in 969 hours of positive structured activities organised by the charity. In a moving letter he says:
“At present I’m on a Veterans’ Mental Health course and would love to get involved with the next one. I have attended meetings on Civic level supported charity events and am at present laying plans for charity events. All of this has played an important part of me not reoffending, self isolating and drinking and it has also given me reason to look to the future”.
He concludes:
“It is a crying shame that I had to get into trouble to achieve all of this”.
It is also a crying shame that men and women who have served their country in difficult and often dangerous circumstances should fall into a similar state as Mr A, at such great cost to themselves and to society.
By systematically incorporating approaches such as those Mr A has successfully undergone into our criminal justice system, we can do much to reduce the likelihood of such damage, and the veterans’ court concept offers a real prospect of achieving that goal. The Minister expressed sympathy with the idea when I floated it on Second Reading, and Mr Damian Green, the Minister of State for Criminal Justice in the Commons, has agreed to meet my honourable friend Dave Anderson MP and others—I hope to be one of them—in the near future. I hope that the noble Lord’s sympathetic response—I know that he wishes to see this carried forward—will be reflected in a positive response tonight. I hope that we can look forward initially to the establishment of a pilot scheme and subsequently to rolling it out in the interests of society and indeed of the ex-service men and women. Those who serve our country under arms deserve no less. I beg to move.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, in supporting the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on this I should declare two interests, first as a former Adjutant-General—or personnel director of the Army—and secondly as president of the Veterans in Prison Association. I have been very interested in the attention given to this particular idea; and although I have not been to it, I have had reports of the activities in Buffalo to which the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, referred. I entirely endorse all his suggestions about the north-east being used as a pilot area. I have been in contact with organisations working up there and have been very impressed by the supporting network that is available. It is one of the crucial parts of doing this.
Unfortunately the figures on exactly how many ex-service people are involved in the criminal justice system are slightly distorted by the fact that numbers of them who claim to be members of the services failed even to make the training. While they may make the claim, they actually have no right to do so. I think, and always have, that it is very important to establish that fact right at the start. Some excellent work was done by the Kent police to try to work out exactly how many ex-service people came through the police stations in Kent. They found that it was very important to ask them for their service number and then to follow it up to establish whether in fact they were genuine ex-servicemen or—as it were— pseudo ex-servicemen who did not deserve the same treatment.
In presenting his case, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has very rightly focused on the support mechanism that is needed in addition to the courts. There needs to be something equivalent to the diversion scheme which the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, has pioneered for the courts in general. It is very useful to recognise—as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has done—that there is a vast network of supporting service charities which act on behalf of the individual servicemen in their long-term and short-term needs. This is something of which account should be taken.
I also commend some other excellent work that has been going on in this country. The Cheshire probation service have been funded by the Royal British Legion to train probation officers to understand the particular needs of ex-servicemen so that they can apply that when deciding exactly how they should be supervised should they be sentenced. What would be very important in establishing these courts—which I entirely recommend—is to make certain that the courts have got a very wide supporting network behind them which should cover things such as mental health and probation. They should also make use of the service charities in whatever action they take with these unfortunate people. I am also very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, mentioned that many of these people come into the sphere of the criminal justice system comparatively late. The average age of 48 was mentioned. Therefore you are not dealing so much with the young adult as the person who has fallen on hard times through trying to come to terms with civilian life and needs particular help to enable them to re-engage.
Viscount Slim
My Lords, I support very much the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I like the way that he has gone into the depth of the problem. I declare that I deal with veterans, from 18 year-olds with one leg to 90 year-olds who have been in various campaigns. I find that middle age is a tricky time for veterans, and it is a big problem.
I do not want to rehearse all the arguments. I believe that the Minister should look kindly on this, and a trial period is what we need. A veteran today gets a fair amount of help when he leaves the Army but the Minister will find, particularly as 25,000 service men and women are in the process of being chucked out of the Army, that the problems are going to increase, and something more will be needed than what is being done at the moment.
I merely state that there is a problem and I do not believe that we are doing enough about it. These veterans’ courts are proven elsewhere; we ought to look at them carefully and trial them. I hope that the Minister understands the problem and is able to do something about it.
Lord Hylton
My Lords, I want to add only that just one court with a proper support network would be very much better than nothing.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for tabling this amendment. I listened carefully to the very poignant story that he told of Mr A’s experiences and how we can build upon that. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, who is extremely well placed and well qualified to speak with authority on this subject, with his background in the Armed Forces, as a former Chief Inspector of Prisons and as president of the Veterans in Prison Association.
As my noble friend Lord McNally said at Second Reading, we share the concerns that have been expressed by all noble Lords in this debate and by the House as a whole—indeed, by Parliament as a whole—that ex-service personnel are ending up in the criminal justice system and, even worse, at times ending up in prison.
However, we should not make our genuine concern, which we have heard today, about our ex-service personnel appear unduly alarmist about service in our Armed Forces. To keep this in perspective, there is some evidence that points to the fact that having served in the Armed Forces is a preventative factor in offending—that is, those who serve in the Armed Forces are less likely to offend than the general population. However, many of those ex-service personnel who offend—I fully acknowledge this, and I am sure that this sentiment resonates with everyone in your Lordships’ House—have served their country, and we owe it to them to ensure that we are doing all that we can to support them.
I do not want to go into the specific wording of the amendment because I acknowledge, and I am sure that this was the intention of both noble Lords, that it was designed to highlight this issue so that we could discuss it further. The amendment raises some fundamental and important questions about the different approaches that could be taken. For example, should we be looking at a body designed to divert ex-service personnel before they get to the criminal courts? Should we be considering whether there is a case for ensuring that courts have greater knowledge and awareness in dealing with this group of offenders? Or should we be considering an oversight role, looking at the most effective ways to rehabilitate ex-service personnel? These are questions that we will look at in conjunction with the judiciary, my colleagues in the Ministry of Defence and other government departments.
This is not to suggest that there is nothing going on in regard to veterans. It is true that some ex-service personnel will struggle to adjust to civilian life, but the Armed Forces do much more than other employers in retraining and reskilling staff who are leaving their employ. We are doing more to identify the particular needs of those offenders who end up in prison, including issues arising from their previous service. All prisons should now have a “veteran in custody support officer” to help with and co-ordinate the assessment and support of ex-service personnel offenders.
I should like to take a moment here, and I am sure that noble Lords across the Chamber will want to join me, to praise the excellent work that many voluntary sector organisations do both in prisons and in the community with offenders, notably the Royal British Legion and SSAFA, the Soldiers’, Sailors’ and Airmen’s Families Association.
Important work is therefore going on, and we will be looking at how that may be best developed. I should say that, as part of our plans to improve the rehabilitation of offenders, we will expect providers of probation services to provide flexible and tailored services to offenders, including addressing the particular needs of ex-service personnel. During meetings that we have had around the Bill with the Lord Chancellor, the Secretary of State and indeed with all Peers, I know that this issue was raised by other Peers. The noble Lord, Lord Reid, raised specific examples of what he had seen in Scotland. We have seen examples of this through the PbR pilots. For example, as part of the pilot at HMP Doncaster, ex-service personnel are being matched up with mentors who themselves are from service backgrounds to support their rehabilitation on release from custody.
I cannot say that we will bring back amendments in this Bill to create a new veterans’ court, and in fact legislation for a pilot may not be required. However, to pick up the point made by the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, I fully acknowledge that we need to give this issue particular thought and much more careful consideration, and the department is already looking at it. I invite all noble Lords across the Chamber to work with us in this respect; I would welcome the opportunity. That will enhance and develop our discussions further, and I think that we will benefit a great deal from the expertise in your Lordships’ House.
While we will continue to ensure good practice is continued and developed among providers, we will also consider what further options may be required for the longer term. I noted in particular the comment by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, when he talked about the establishment of such a court and what surrounds that court—the need for support that goes much wider. It is important that the Government, and indeed the House in its contributions in looking at this matter, take a very holistic approach.
With those reassurances of our continued and passionate shared commitment, as expressed around the House today, to develop support for ex-service personnel, I hope that the noble Lords are able to withdraw their amendment.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I express a sense of slight disappointment with the Minister’s reply. I am grateful to the noble Lords who have supported the amendment. I rather expected the Government to say that they would at least go forward with a pilot, whether or not legislation was required for that. I would have hoped that they would acknowledge that there would be space in the Bill to allow for the establishment of these courts if legislation were required for that, although maybe it is not—it will be interesting to find out on Report if it would require legislation to establish this system—and for the Government to allow for such an eventuality after a pilot. If the Government are not prepared to give an assurance that a pilot will be mounted, it will be necessary to bring this amendment or something like it back before the House and, perhaps, to test its opinion. Sympathy is welcome but, as we have heard already this afternoon, sometimes it only goes so far.
Lord Ramsbotham
“Secretary of State’s duty
(1) The Secretary of State shall in each year publish a report on the financial and resource costs and benefits of the implementation of this Act.
(2) A report published under subsection (1) shall include, but need not be restricted to, information on the financial costs and benefits associated with—
(a) the supervision of offenders following release from custody,(b) breaches of supervision requirements,(c) changes in arrangements for the provision of probation services,(d) any changes in sentencing practice attributable to the implementation of this Act.(3) Publication under subsection (1) shall be effected in such manner as the Secretary of State considers appropriate for the purpose of bringing the report to the attention of persons engaged in the administration of criminal justice and of the public.”
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, this is a probing amendment drafted by the Prison Reform Trust, reflecting a great number of concerns put to it by practitioners. Although there is general approval of and welcome for the intent of the Bill, as has been voiced throughout this Chamber today and on the previous Committee day, there is concern that we do not know a great deal of the detail. Based on experience, those of us who have been involved in the criminal justice system in one way or another are concerned that it is the very lack of detail that it is likely to inhibit the advance of whatever is proposed. The amendment therefore does not aim to put a spanner in the works—far from it. Like many other noble Lords, I want to see the Bill come to fruition. I want something to be done about this terrible reoffending rate, if that indeed is the right term. What is more, I want whatever is introduced to be sustained and not a sort of one-day wonder.
At the heart of a lot of what is being proposed is the introduction of payment by results. I declare an interest as chairman of the All-Party Penal Affairs Group. We have been involved with the drug and alcohol recovery pilots, eight of which are currently running. They went live in April last year and are being run by the NHS. There was a long two-year period before they were introduced and they are being academically evaluated over three years by Manchester University and Birkbeck University. I think that they are very relevant to what is being proposed for the criminal justice system because they involve practitioners in the field. Those monitoring these pilots in the National Health Service have looked at the payback mechanism straw-man proposal for this Bill which, like all the papers we have before us, was published only last month. Although saying that in some respects what is proposed looks promising, they point out that it raises questions, many of which relate to the absence of numbers or qualitative weighting—or, indeed pilots—which does not give one a great deal of confidence in what is alleged.
In addition, they are concerned that there is no mention of the overlap and tension for both users and providers involved with other payment-by-result schemes such as the Work Programme, the NHS alcohol treatment programme, the NHS dual-diagnosis programme, the troubled families programme and indeed, in the case of the Ministry of Justice, the drug and alcohol recovery programme, all of which are connected with the offender rehabilitation programme and some of which could impact on the plans made and payment claimed for an individual who is subject to more than one payment-by-results programme. There does not appear to have been any resolution of that.
Various concerns suggested by other payment-by-result initiatives do not seem to have been fully addressed. For example, there is considerable concern about what is referred to as gaming—the public’s private sector providers playing games with the payment, the assessment or the people they actually put forward for it. To get over that, the National Health Service has put in place a mechanism called the National Drug Treatment Monitoring System, which has treatment outcome profiles and local area assessment and referral services, because it found that unless it does that, there is a great danger of it being taken for a ride, which it cannot afford.
There is also something proposed called the learning-curve discount scheme that nobody seems to know much about because we do not know whether providers are going to be able consistently to reduce costs and/or improve performance and therefore come up with something earning a discount. Also, there is no mention of the significant transition costs of payment by results, which other people have found both in establishing the data management systems for managing the outcomes and the substantial bureaucracy required to manage them. If they are being managed by the current system, which is working flat-out to manage current offenders, I wonder how it will cope with the problems of the payment-by-results schemes. There is also the problem of verification of outcomes which when they are delayed can cause problems with cash flow and therefore the whole payment-based system. I mention those not to be a Jonah but to say that I hope that all these have been taken into account by the Ministry of Justice, which, not having pilots of its own does not have the advantage of practical experience. I hope that it is cashing in on the experience of others to make certain that it does not fall into the same trap.
I admit to two other doubts which I must voice. The first is about costings, and I refer to an answer given by the Minister to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on Amendment 7A when he said that,
“competing the community payback contracts in London saw a £25 million saving over four years”.—[Official Report, 5/6/13; col. 1214.]
It is true that the Serco bid undercut the probation service bid by £24 million for a four-year contract. However, that started only last year and that £25 million does not include the costs of running the competition which went on for more than two years and must have been substantial. We also have to consider, when looking at value for money, that the contract has only been running so far for less than a year with three years to go. The probation service is very sceptical that someone such as Serco will put in quite such a low bid next time when recompetition comes up based on actual experience of running the thing. It would regard its bid as being more realistic based on its experience. So the jury is out and I am concerned that too much emphasis is being placed on savings that have been made when a contract has cost less when we have not yet seen the outcomes. The Prison Service has a bad track record on this. I remember complaining once when it excluded central administrative costs from a competition bid with the private sector to run a prison and then claimed that it had won. When the National Audit Office looked at it on a level-playing field it found that the bid had not been put in correctly.
My second doubt concerns time. I refer to the chart on page 34 of the White Paper, which sets out the Government’s timetable. This says that the new probation service, which presumably will include the 77% of privatised elements, will be introduced by autumn next year, after which the new competed services will go live.
If it took two years to compete the London community payback, and if it took two years for the National Health Service to set up its eight pilots for the drug and alcohol recovery schemes, I wonder whether it is realistic to expect that, in the one year between now and then, the Ministry of Justice will be able to complete all the contracts, all the recruiting and all the training of all the people who are needed to carry on with what is proposed while, at the same time, with the same staff, conducting the essential work that has to be done now with offenders. As I say, it is not that I doubt the intent but I question the practicability. I therefore wish that we would be given a more realistic timetable based on actual possibilities rather than the allegations we have been given on page 34.
My last request is that the Minister, who said that he hoped to have the new impact assessment with us by Report, will make certain not only that it is with us by Report, but that it is with us in plenty of time for us to consider it before Report, to make Report a more meaningful exercise.
That is why I am asking the Secretary of State to produce an annual statement of how all this is working out. Certainly, if I were the Secretary of State, I would want such a document on my desk every year anyway. Therefore, rather than asking for something additional, I am asking for something which I presume will be produced to be shared with both Houses so that we can keep abreast of what is going on in this hugely important venture which, in intent, enjoys the support of the whole House. I beg to move.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, the noble Lord has fired a salvo of questions and critiques of the Government’s proposals. It will be interesting to see what defence the Minister can put up to them. The noble Lord has made many telling points, not least the question of the timetable, which looks ridiculously short. The Secretary of State in his previous capacity introduced the markedly unsuccessful Work Programme, which was also rushed through with pretty abysmal results. There must be some danger, particularly if the exercise is rushed, that we will see repetition of that. It occurred to me to think as the noble Lord was talking about this transition that one can envisage staff members being involved in that transition. Does that mean that they take, for example, their caseload with them? Will the cases of those who are being supervised and who will transfer into the payment-by-results system remain with probation or, if the probation officer in question is to be moved over—presumably some of that will happen—will the case go across to the payment-by-results providers? Or will they be excluded? It all seems highly mysterious.
Lord McNally
Deary, deary me. If the best we can do is some anecdote about paint not turning up on time, that must be a sign of some pretty thin paint. Of course, we are at the very start of the Bill’s progress; it is the second day of Committee in its first House. I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that noble Lords can ask all kinds of questions about what is done—“Give me firm answers now”. However, the truth is that we are doing something extremely radical, which the previous Government tried and backed off from. Let nobody doubt that payment by results in this area is exciting.
By the way, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, should take full responsibility for that paint story. I cannot imagine that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, who is a gentle soul, would attempt such a malicious intervention. It has Beecham fingerprints all over it. Let us be clear on that.
Lord McNally
Yes. I have never suggested that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is trying to throw a spanner in the works. I know that he wants this to work as much as I do. One of the values of the parliamentary process is that legitimate questions are asked about how this or that will be done. As the process unfolds, I will do my best to make sure that the House is informed.
We are working at this moment, not in advance of legislation but within the department, on how contracts and competition will work. We are not entirely flying blind on this because, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has said, payment by results has been tried in other parts of Whitehall. Of course we are taking advice and learning from both the successes and the failures of other departments. That is being built into our process. The noble Lord referred to gaming in the NHS experience. That will certainly be looked at. He mentioned transition costs being built in, and verification. We are working and consulting with other departments on these matters. It is very interesting. I can remember the first prospects for privatisation of prisons and a lot of the debates that went on. Even the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, would acknowledge that with the privatisations of prisons lessons and efficiencies have been shown and standards set which have been to the benefit of the prison system as a whole. We anticipate that a similar process will take place in this case.
The Government are very clear that we are trying to carry through quickly a very radical programme, addressing a problem which defeated the previous Government. As earlier debates today have shown, our attempts to address it have widespread support across the House.
We will need to have a good understanding of the support that probation providers give to short-sentenced offenders during licence and supervision. We will need to keep a very close eye on the proportion of offenders breaching supervision, and on how magistrates decide to respond. We will also need to watch very carefully for any changes in sentencing practice.
As I have made clear, it is not the Government’s intention that this Bill will result in changes in sentencing practice, and nothing in the Bill alters the existing custody threshold. However, let me reassure noble Lords that we will be monitoring this and other issues extremely closely. Again, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is quite right that there are a lot of other initiatives. This Government are exciting and radical, and are doing things across the piece. Of course, progress we are making in other areas will impact on the criminal justice system, just as our successes will impact on other parts. That is what happens when you have a radical Government.
We will also make sure that we are open and transparent about sharing data and information wherever we can. There are already well established mechanisms for making available many of the types of information that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has highlighted in his amendment. On changes in sentencing trends, for example, we publish every quarter a Criminal Justice Statistics bulletin that includes detailed information on sentencing outcomes and trends. This is a national statistics publication, so it is subject to the appropriate checks and safeguards. Any changes in sentencing practice will be clear from this report. In addition, the Sentencing Council has a duty under Section 130 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 to publish a report every year on the impact of changes in sentencing practice on prison and probation costs. Any changes to sentencing practice as a result of this Bill will fall under that duty. The independent council, with all its expertise on sentencing, is best placed to carry out that analysis.
Similarly, on breach we already publish licence recall statistics every quarter in the Offender Management Statistics Quarterly Bulletin. Again, that is a national statistics publication. We want to make sure that, in the future, that includes recalls of prisoners released from sentences of less than 12 months, and includes committals to custody for those proven to have breached a supervision requirement. Likewise, we publish proven reoffending rates every quarter, broken down by type and length of sentence. That is also a national statistics publication.
I hope this makes it clear that we are not starting from scratch. I also take pride in the fact that this has been one of the most proactive Governments in putting out their statistics and information, allowing various parts of the Government to be checked on performance. The Government have worked hard over the past three years to improve the transparency of the criminal justice system, and we would look to make available much of the information that Amendment 34 details through the existing mechanisms we have.
The Secretary of State is already subject to a duty to publish information of this sort. As I suspect the noble Lord is aware, given that his amendment follows some of its language very closely, Section 95 of the Criminal Justice Act 1991 requires the Secretary of State every year to publish such information as he considers expedient on a range of topics, including information that allows those working in the justice system to become aware of the financial implications of their decisions and information that allows those working in the justice system to understand the effectiveness of different sentences in preventing reoffending.
We already consider it expedient to publish not just annually, but quarterly, much of the information that Amendment 34 mentions. That will continue to happen if the provisions of the Bill receive the agreement of both Houses. Therefore, while I understand, welcome, and agree with the intentions of the noble Lord in tabling this amendment, I hope that what I have said reassures him that the Government are committed to understanding and sharing the impacts of this Bill and to being as transparent as possible in delivering it forward.
In doing so, I remind noble Lords that costs for extending supervision will ultimately be dependent on the outcome of competing offender services in the community. If we were to give figures at this stage, it would put at risk our ability to agree value-for-money contracts with providers. However, I hope that my commitment last week to take away the impact assessment for the Bill and to consider how we could expand it will provide some additional assurance. Work is under way to revise the impact assessment as I speak, and I hope to be able to bring back a revised version soon. I know what has been said about the value of that on Report. In the light of these assurances I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hylton
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the Treasury has set a fixed sum for the transition to the rehabilitation of short-term offenders and for the changes to the probation service? If so, how big is that sum, and over what period?
Lord McNally
One of the things I have learnt in three years is that when a noble Lord asks me a question like that, I promise to get advice and write to him for the benefit of the Committee. I am quite sure that on almost every aspect of life the Treasury has fixed sums in mind, but I will check on that and report back to him.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for that reply, and for the dialogue we have had about the various issues that were raised. The noble Lord has quite rightly appreciated the deep interest that all Members of this House have in this issue. It is too important to be let go by default. We have a certain amount of expertise, as well as interest, in this House, which we are extremely anxious to deploy if we possibly can. Therefore I am very happy at this stage to withdraw the amendment, but I would like to consider the content of the impact assessment before deciding what action I take on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Beecham
Lord Beecham
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, provokes a vision in my mind. I see him as a sort of parliamentary Caliban, proclaiming constantly: “Oh brave new world, that has such legislation in it”. I cannot say that he is altogether persuasive in the claims that he makes for this legislation, well motivated though it is, let alone the rest of his Government’s exciting and radical agenda.
In these amendments I look at two exciting and radical parts of the Bill. Amendment 35 addresses the provision in Clause 18 that empowers the Secretary of State to make an order that may,
“make different provision for different purposes, and … amend, repeal or revoke legislation”.
These are probing amendments only, but it would be helpful to know what the Minister envisages by, to quote the preceding subsection,
“consequential, supplementary or incidental provisions in relation to any provision of this Act”.
Can he exemplify the sort of thing that might be covered by the order-making power conferred by Clause 18(2)?
Amendment 36 relates to Clause 19, the substance of which goes even further in giving the Secretary of State power to,
“make other transitional, transitory or saving provision in connection with the coming into force of any provision of this Act”.
Such an order may,
“make different provision for different purposes”,
and so on, and,
“An order … is to be made by statutory instrument”.
Would that require the affirmative procedure or only the negative? The power is potentially so wide, as is the power in the previous clause, that it should require the affirmative procedure rather than merely the negative procedure. Will the noble Lord elucidate the position?
Lord McNally
The noble Lord beat me. I have been racking my brains for a suitable Shakespearean quote to come back at him. I suppose we could say that this is a “Government of wonders”. I am reminded of the late Lord George Brown, who, when he was Economics Minister, stood up at the Dispatch Box, banged it and said “This Government are running the economy in a way that it has never been run before”, and was then surprised when the Opposition cheered him to the echo.
In this last group of amendments, we turn to the provisions on consequential and transitional arrangements. The provisions in Clauses 18 and 19 are mainly technical, and are also fairly standard constructions, which can be seen, for example, in the Criminal Justice Act 2003. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, seems to be saying that these amendments are designed to ensure that Parliament has a say before order-making changes are made.
Clause 18 allows the Secretary of State to make provision that is consequential, supplementary or incidental to the provisions of the Act by an order that is subject to the negative procedure. This clause mainly amends other statutory schemes, some of which are complicated and technical in nature. It is therefore eminently sensible for there to be a power to make the consequential or other changes needed to ensure those provisions work well with the provisions of this Act.
Those changes should be subject to the negative procedure where possible. Clause 18(6) makes it clear that where an order under Clause 18 is made that amends another Act, it is subject to the affirmative procedure. Amendment 35 would remove Clause 18(2), which makes it clear what the power can be used for. The power itself is conferred by subsection (1), so the amendment makes it unclear what the power may be used for: it would not remove the power. There will be an opportunity to scrutinise the technical changes made by any order made under Clause 18. I do not believe that these have to be affirmative orders, and where the order is not subject to the affirmative procedure it will be subject to the negative procedure.
Amendment 36 is more specific in that it would make any order made under Clause 19 subject to the affirmative procedure. Clause 19 makes arrangements for transitional provisions and introduces Schedule 7, which sets out in what circumstances the changes made by the Bill apply. For example, it sets out how the new supervision changes apply to different sentences in different circumstances. The power to make transitional, transitory or saving provisions can be used only if those provisions are related to a commencement order. Under this Act, commencement orders are, as is usual, not subject to a parliamentary procedure. It would therefore be odd for the power to include transitional, transitory or saving provisions on commencement to be subject to the affirmative procedure.
Clauses 18 and 19 are needed to implement primary legislation flexibly, and they are often technically complicated. I do not think that noble Lords would particularly welcome a detailed debate on affirmative orders. I do not know: I could think of one noble Baroness who would relish a detailed debate on affirmative orders. Oh, she has gone. We teased the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, earlier. I am not convinced that such a debate is a good use of your Lordships’ time, or is what this amendment actually intends.
In asking the noble Lord to consider withdrawing these amendments, I take the opportunity to say that this has been very useful and productive Committee consideration of this Bill. We will return to detailed points on Report and we have already had a few Mafia-like warnings—you know where we live—that there will be consequences if we do not respond. However, I have appreciated the general support on all sides of the House for what we are trying to do in tackling the problem of reoffending, which has proved very difficult for successive Administrations. We claim no genius in our solutions, but we are genuinely trying to find both the resources and the flexibility to tackle this problem. The contribution of this House to getting it right is enormously appreciated.
Lord Beecham
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply and his essentially good-humoured approach for most of the time we have been discussing the Bill. I made it clear at the outset that these were probing amendments only, so he perhaps went a little further than he needed to in responding. Nevertheless, I am grateful. I echo his words about the proceedings having been useful. How productive they have been will very much depend on the Government’s response on Report. I hope it will be a little more positive than he has indicated, or has been allowed to indicate, so far. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
International Development: Budget
(10 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Empey
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have plans to transfer a portion of the international development budget to the budget of the Ministry of Defence.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, because the noble Lord’s Question for Short Debate will be taken as last business, the time limit for it will become 90 minutes rather than 60. Therefore, speeches should be limited to seven minutes, except for those of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and the Minister, for which the limits will remain 10 and 12 minutes respectively.
Lord Empey
My Lords, it is often said of politicians that they should not ask a question until they know the answer. However, I can truly say that I do not know the answer to the question that I will ask this evening, and that my motive in securing this debate is to seek answers and clarification.
There is no doubt that large numbers of our fellow human beings live in terrible conditions that we can barely imagine, and which our community finds appalling. Whether it is hunger, slavery, exploitation and trafficking, disease, war or natural disasters, there is virtually no end to the misery suffered by millions of people, with the young and old as the principal victims.
There is a long tradition in this country of being willing to help others, both financially and in other ways. One has only to look at the money that is raised annually by appeals such as Children in Need, and at the response to international disasters, when the British people give generously. There is a well established tradition of volunteering, with many young people, in particular, willing and anxious to spend some of their lives in the service of others. Sadly, on a number of occasions this has put those young people in personal jeopardy, and some have lost their lives. My own region of Northern Ireland always punches above its weight in such enterprises, and this creates a great sense of pride in our fellow citizens.
In recent years, there has been growth in the amount of taxpayers’ money that has gone to international development. In the Budget 2013 document of March this year, the figures were stark. Resource DEL for the Department for International Development will rise from £6.1 billion in 2012-2013 to £8.8 billion in 2013-14. When capital DEL is added, the total figure will increase from £7.8 billion in 2012-13 to £10.7 billion in 2013-14—an increase of 37%. No other department of state enjoys such largesse in this time of austerity. By comparison, the Ministry of Defence’s total resource and capital DEL figures show a more modest increase of 5% due to increased capital spending.
This Government have set out on a number of occasions their ambition to spend 0.7% of GDP on international aid. In recent days, the Prime Minister has, in his capacity as chairman of the G8, chaired a conference designed to raise money for many starving people. However, earlier this year, in February, David Cameron alluded to the possibility that funds currently allocated to the Department for International Development could be reallocated to the defence budget in order to provide security and stability in regions where this was necessary to distribute aid safely.
There is already co-operation between the Ministry of Defence, the Department for International Development and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, which is essential to ensure that UK policy is properly co-ordinated. Military campaigns are often accompanied by humanitarian projects, and the foreign policy objectives of Her Majesty’s Government can often be advanced by such spending, as the briefing pack for the debate demonstrates. The flurry of parliamentary Questions, both in your Lordships’ House and in the other place, suggests that I am not alone in seeking clarification of what is proposed.
The OECD and the International Development Act 2002 define what is regarded as legitimate aid spending. This could be in conflict with the MoD’s understandable concern about recovering costs and relieving pressure on its overstretched budget. I do not have a problem with that. The work of the Department for International Development, the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office should be part of a seamless process designed to help those in greatest need. Without a proper framework of security, this is often neither safe nor possible. I regret, for instance, the trite and sarcastic statement by Max Lawson, Oxfam’s head of policy, that what is needed is spending,
“on hospitals and not helicopter gunships”.
This makes no positive contribution to the very difficult balances that Ministers have to strike.
Given all this, what exactly was the import of the Prime Minister’s intervention in February? If nothing has changed, why was his speech necessary? If something is changing—and maybe it needs to—why are Ministers being coy about it? Given our current financial circumstances, and considering that many people in the country simply do not believe that all their hard-earned taxes always get to the people who need them, but instead, in a minority of cases, go to corrupt officials, gangsters and despotic regimes, it is necessary for the Minister to tell the House exactly why such an intervention was necessary, and explain what exactly is happening to the very large international development budget.
I have no doubt that the Prime Minister and other Ministers take great pride in the fact that the United Kingdom is taking the lead in a number of important projects throughout the world. Undoubtedly it is something in which all people in this country take pride. It is also true that our defence forces are under great strain and pressure. However, there is in some cases an inextricable link between having support from defence forces on the one hand and allowing them to be co-ordinated with staff from the Department for International Development and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I seek clarification on why the Prime Minister said what he said if there was no change taking place—and, if there was a change, perhaps the House may have an adequate explanation so that a judgment can be made.
Lord Bates
My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and I pay tribute to him for securing this timely debate. Noble Lords on all sides of the House, irrespective of their point of view, will look forward to hearing the answers to the questions he posed, which should be in the public domain.
Essentially, he reminded us that there is a choice about how we spend our budget, and whether we devote it to overseas development assistance or whether we spend it on military interventions. On that subject, I will underline some important facts that are sometimes overlooked in the current debate—understandably, because these are incredibly tough fiscal times for the country and times of great hardship at home. Therefore, people are asking questions about how we are spending our money overseas. For every £1 we pay in taxes, just over 1p is spent on aid. For every £1 we spend on aid, we spend £6 on defence. Clearly we need to look at that situation and keep it constantly under review. I was impressed by some figures that came out of the weekend summit to which the noble Lord referred—and it is wonderful to see Northern Ireland in the spotlight this week, in the lead-up to the G8 summit in Lough Erne, Enniskillen. Therefore it is timely that we should focus on that in particular.
Save the Children sent me some figures which pointed out that, in 1990, 12 million children under the age of five died from preventable diseases. They then showed that, in 2011, that figure had fallen dramatically to 6.9 million. Aid has played a crucial part in that; so has trade. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, was a distinguished Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment in Northern Ireland and knows the importance of trade in lifting people out of poverty. None the less, 5.1 million fewer deaths of under-fives per year is an incredible return that the British people and others are getting on their investment in the poorest in the world.
It is always very difficult when these things happen because, when we see need around the world, a hue and cry goes up that “something must be done”. We are finding this at the moment in Syria. There is no doubt that, if you are in a ministerial office—at the Foreign Office, in the Ministry of Defence or in No. 10—the pressure to show immediate responses is immense, and military action is an immediate response. It has impact, it is visual and it shows a degree of leadership. To invest in aid, training people in how to develop crops, drilling wells, improving sanitation and educating the child takes longer. In a sense, they are less immediate, but the long-term return is vastly more.
We need to look at this very carefully and I read the Prime Minister’s speech about it with care. It could have been interpreted as leading to some potential change in the way that we allocate aid. Yet, the Prime Minister has nailed his colours to the mast on this to a greater extent than probably any leader in recent times. He has been inextricably associated with arguing the case for aid, not least last weekend. Within the Conservative Party, which is part of the coalition, he vigorously makes the point about the value of our aid spend in the world. That is very significant. We are just reaching the point of achieving our goal of 0.7%. We are seeing the returns: 5.1 million fewer lives lost. We are being told by the UN that the eradication of poverty for under-fives by 2030 is a real possibility, and that a further 1.7 million lives per year could therefore be saved. When we are on the brink of that incredible breakthrough, it would be unthinkable to look at blurring the edges between two very distinct types of spend. They are two very necessary types of spend in their correct context but we must not blur the edges. There are international agreements as to what overseas development assistance means and they come together in the Conflict Pool, the work of which I applaud. It has been a great innovation in bringing together the Ministry of Defence, DfID and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, getting them to work together in control of a single budget to tackle prevention, rather than by intervention.
When the Prime Minister launched this, he said, in another place, that,
“we must get better at treating the causes of instability, not just dealing with the consequences. When we fail to prevent conflict and have to resort to military intervention, the costs are always far higher”.—[Official Report, Commons, 19/10/10; col. 798.]
We know the impact of that through our intervention in Iraq and our continued presence in Afghanistan. That intervention is critically important. We know that more than 1.5 billion people live in fragile or conflict-affected states and it is no surprise that none of these has achieved a single millennium development goal. There is a link there.
I understand the argument that you need the military solution to create the security on the ground to allow trade, education and assistance with governance to develop, but I profoundly disagree with it. When people are without income, without hope, they have nothing to lose or to live for and that is then a catalyst for violence, rather than something which abates it. We need to remember that as we consider all the options open to us.
Lord Judd
My Lords, it is always good to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bates, because he brings judgment, wisdom and a strong humanitarian commitment in so much that he contributes to debates on issues of this kind. He argues his case particularly convincingly. I hope that my words will underline the significance of what he has said.
I want to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on having introduced this debate. It is incredibly important and not something to be swept to one side after the remarks by the Prime Minister, so I hope we can have clarification of what exactly he meant.
It is quite a long time since I was in government. My first job was in defence and, after two years there, which I enjoyed greatly and found very challenging, the Prime Minister asked me to move to overseas development where I became the Minister for a short while, until Tony Crosland died and I moved to the Foreign Office. When I made the change, quite a lot of my friends asked me, wasn’t this an incredible change to make from defence to overseas development? I looked at them straight in the eye, because I believed it, and said, “Not at all. Both are about human security and well-being”. During my years in defence, I was always impressed by the number of senior officers, civil servants and others, who used to say in discussion, “Of course, we’ve lost if war breaks out. Our job is to prevent war and to ensure that peace can prevail”. Of course, development is ensuring that peace is not just the absence of war, but it is the ability of people to live full lives and to develop their potential.
I strongly believe that this is a time of so many challenges, including hunger and malnutrition—which is particularly sinister with its long-term effects, not least on future productivity—of climate change and of infant mortality still, although we must all take heart from the great progress to which the noble Lord, Lord Bates, referred. However, this is not a time to start raiding the aid budget. There may be very real arguments about how we do it better, get better value for money and prioritise better. Some of that has begun with the examination of programmes in India and South Africa, for example. These are big, important arguments but it certainly cannot be said that there are still not demands which far outstrip what we are even now able to make available.
The British people should take great pride that we are setting examples to the world in our commitment to overseas aid and development. At a time of low morale in Britain about so many things, this is something about which we can get excited—the positive battle for humanity, and the well-being of people and the children who are being born, or who should be born today but still die before they have a chance to enjoy life. It is very significant that we can say to the world, “Don’t do as we say but follow our example because this is a challenge that we are determined to meet”. I make no bones about it: I congratulate the Government unreservedly on having honoured the pledge of allocating 0.7% of GNP to aid. There will be arguments about priorities and techniques, but having kept that promise and that determination is something in which the British people should take pride. That is not to say that the example should not be followed in the battle for social justice and against poverty, deprivation and inadequacy in our health service in our own country, but at least in our relationships with the world we can hold our head high. It is an example of what we should be doing in our own society, if I may put it that way.
There will always be an overlap between overseas development and defence—that is clear. Certainly, humanitarian assistance, let alone long-term development, cannot take place if there is insecurity and instability. Therefore, in some situations it is necessary for defence forces and aid operations to work hand in glove. However, there are tensions—for example, in Afghanistan. The Army liberates an area and wants to put things in quickly which give the people a stake in the liberation of their territory before the Taliban moves back. Overseas development workers say, “Hang on a moment. It’s not just a quick fix. If we are to put a school or a hospital in, it has to be sustainable because if we have a quick fix the whole thing will collapse and we are likely to lose everything”. Therefore, there are real tensions between the disciplines of long-term, sustainable development and the immediate needs of the Armed Forces. The challenge is how we bring those two aims together in a useful and sensible way. I always think it is very exciting when the military can feel that on occasions it is contributing positively to human well-being by ensuring that supplies get through and that goods are delivered. That is something which many people in all three services of the military enjoy and value. However, these two aims are not the same tasks and how you marry them together will always pose a very difficult challenge, but one with which I think we should grapple.
In conclusion, we still need to give far more attention to the issues of conflict resolution and conflict prevention, although we are giving them much more attention than we used to. The resources to do that should come from the aid budget although the military has a contribution to make. I hope that in all the Government’s considerations those issues remain priorities.
Lord Chidgey
My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on securing this debate, on his thoughtful contribution and on the concise way in which he presented it, which is an example to us all. I will certainly try to follow that example.
It is a delight and a privilege to follow my old friend, the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who was first elected as an MP in Portsmouth many years ago when I was a young student at Portsmouth Polytechnic. I am afraid that he did not persuade me to vote for him. Nevertheless, it is always a pleasure to hear him extolling with such oratorical skill his well-known absolute commitment to international aid and development. I shall try to follow him with a few precise words of my own.
For some months now, there has been a mounting campaign within the defence community for the MoD to be given an ability to draw upon elements of Britain’s aid and development budget. The attempt to access this ring-fenced budget as part of the comprehensive spending review has thrown up suggestions that DfID should, for example, pay for flights on RAF transport aircraft, in particular for military helicopters used to carry civilians as well as soldiers, by prepaying a guaranteed number of flights for each type of aircraft in regular use by DfID. There have also been suggestions that DfID should pay for some naval patrols and protective equipment required by civilian staff. The Royal Navy’s Atlantic Patrol Task is a case in point. Tasked with protecting our interests in the Caribbean, the APT takes on humanitarian aid during the hurricane season, together with assisting with counternarcotics and anti-terrorism operations.
There has been a push from the MoD to redefine more of its work as official development assistance, not surprisingly given the way in which the Prime Minister’s remarks about establishing effective links between defence and development have been largely, if not blatantly, misinterpreted in some quarters. They were spun to mean that more ODA should be spent on defence, increasing the momentum being created behind the campaign to that effect. However, the fact of the matter is that ODA can be spent by the military only on very specific activities due to strict guidelines from the OECD and the United Kingdom’s own International Development Act 2002, to which the noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred.
Apparently, discussions between the MoD and DfID are ongoing, so perhaps in her reply the Minister could tell us whether an options paper has yet been put to the National Security Council and, if so, when its response is expected. The Government have made it clear that they would like to see more of the aid budget diverted to defence by building up the Conflict Pool already used by DfID and the MoD.
If we can help states riven by conflict and war, and help to deliver security and provide stability, we also provide the base on which all development can proceed. The Government’s commitment to investing greater resources in preventing violent conflict before it breaks out is widely welcomed. The use of the Conflict Pool through the Building Stability Overseas strategy is widely seen as a step in the right direction.
The Independent Commission for Aid Impact’s recent report, Evaluation of the Inter-Departmental Conflict Pool, recognised that it has proved effective at identifying and supporting worthwhile conflict-prevention initiatives and has delivered some useful, if localised, results. It goes on to say that the Conflict Pool functions well as a responsive grant-making instrument for supporting small-scale peacebuilding activities by local parties in conflict-affected countries.
The ICAI report identifies a number of ways in which the Conflict Pool can be improved through greater attention to how the cross-departmental approach should work in practice, identifying more clearly how Conflict Pool spending can achieve impacts on the scale required, adopting a more conflict-sensitive approach, and improving monitoring and evaluation systems. I would be grateful if the Minister could inform the House of the actions that the Government have taken, and are taking, in this regard.
Aid is not the only mechanism that the UK can use to promote peace and support stability and development. According to Saferworld, there are a number of ways in which the defence community can contribute to conflict-prevention activities—elements such as security and justice sector reform, small arms counterproliferation and monitoring arms transfer control arrangements. Some may count as ODA while others may not. The MoD mentions the BSOS in its Defence Engagement Strategy paper but does not set out how it intends to contribute to upstream conflict prevention. This gives an impression of a lack of commitment to the BSOS and belies the MoD’s responsibility to ensure that its approach in fragile states works towards the vision of stability outlined in the BSOS. Will the Minister clarify how the MoD is working to fulfil its commitments under the BSOS, which sets out the UK’s approach to addressing conflict overseas?
Finally, I echo the words of Bill Gates who, with the Gates foundation, has set new heights in philanthropy in aid and development. When he opened DfID’s new offices in Whitehall last week—in fact, we should not really call them new; that is a misnomer as they are a refurbished conversion that will hopefully do the job—he said that the UK should take great pride in the compassion and generosity of its people and its commitment. Mostly, it should take great pride in its ability to deliver effective international aid on a scale that makes the UK a world leader, and the Gates foundation its preferred partner.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I, too, am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Empey for tabling this important and timely debate. We always have to consider the brave men and women of our armed services and be sure to leave no stone unturned in ensuring our absolute commitment to their success and to the protection of the nation.
However, I seek reassurance from the Minister with regard to switching funding from development towards defence because, as the noble Lord, Lord Bates, made crystal clear, we are talking about the lives of millions of children. Even a small reduction in funding will be measurable in children’s lives. We as a nation are making a huge difference through our commitment and the example that we are setting to the international community. We are taking a leadership role in international development by saving children’s and adults’ lives, and showing other nations the way in doing so. Perhaps it is arguable that by taking these steps we are also contributing to an increase in the reduction in population growth across the globe. As families are supported as women receive education, birth rates drop, so population growth drops. It is arguable that that might contribute to long-term stability and a safer and more secure global environment.
I should declare an interest. I was funded to visit Angola during the civil war there 12 or 15 years ago. I have visited Angola on a couple of occasions subsequently, funded by Save the Children and Tearfund. I recall meeting AIDS patients in Luanda who were utterly helpless because there was no treatment that they could afford. They were living desperate lives. I also remember visiting an area for internally displaced people and seeing a group of men and a young woman who was with them talking about condom use and how important it was in preventing the spread of AIDS. I remember seeing street children who were living in the sewers of the city. They came up from there to make a life for themselves. I visited a school sponsored by an NGO that provided street children with an education and opportunities for employment. I visited a project funded by DevelopmentAid where young men were building their own homes. I visited a maternity unit, which sadly had no or very few incubators for babies. The main problem was that the roads were in such poor condition that mothers found it difficult to get timely help during their pregnancies.
The difference which the British people make internationally by their investment in educating women, reducing levels of poverty and ensuring that children get adequate nutrition is huge. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, drew attention to the long-term impact of malnutrition in early life. By making a difference in these areas, we are also contributing to lower birth rates and a reduction in the world population.
This is the right thing to do because we are saving children’s lives in Africa and across the world. It might also be argued that what we are doing is prudent because we are introducing more stability by reducing population growth by ensuring that women are educated and taking that step forward. I join in the tributes made across the House to the coalition Government for their commitment of 0.7% GDP to international development, and I look forward to what I hope will be some reassurance from the Minister that there will be no trans-switching of funding from international development to defence. Both are crucial and need to be treated independently.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, I join those thanking the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for introducing this debate. It is very timely and perhaps gives us an opportunity for some clearing of the air after the Prime Minister’s recent comments and the reactions, or overreactions, in some cases, to them.
Let me emphasise from these Benches our complete support for the Government’s overall allocation to the aid budget. I believe that history will give a very favourable judgment on this country’s decision to maintain its increasing level of commitment at such a challenging economic time. Our world seems ever increasingly to be characterised by growing divides between wealth and poverty, whether between individuals in a given country or between countries themselves. I sometimes think that there are not many issues on which the Lords spiritual are in total agreement, but this is definitely one of them. At least, I believe that to be the case, but my right reverend friend the Bishop of Derby has yet to speak.
Aid should be directed to alleviate poverty, but that poses the question: what is poverty in our world today? When thinking about poverty we should, of course, take its obvious meaning which tends to come first to us: it is a lack of money and material resources. But poverty is not just a lack of material resources; it can also be poor health, which can be psychological as well as spiritual. Poverty can be not living in a democracy in which individuals are valued. Much poverty in its broader sense is caused by wars or other social upheavals, just as the greatest single source of poverty in this country is arguably family breakdown. The best way to address poverty in our country might well be to have a co-ordinated, cross-departmental strategy to reduce family breakdown, in as much as the Government can influence such major social trends.
The same applies to development aid overseas. Above all, it needs a joined-up, cross-departmental strategy, and in as much as this is what the Prime Minister was advocating in his recent remarks, I have no problem with them. I also have no fundamental objection to our aid programmes being integrated somewhat with our broader national interests or security strategy. There has been a tendency in the past for the development programme to be almost on its own plane, apart from other aspects of government policy. But it is distinct, as has been rightly said by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. It always seems to me to be part of the overall programme of what we are trying to do as a country. Surely we are learning the hard way, as has been mentioned, that soft power in all its guises is often more lastingly effective than hard power. Indeed, there seem to be many conflicts which have no purely military solution, as indeed is the case, it appears, in Syria.
In relation to the Ministry of Defence, for example, I can see a strong case for offering assistance with mine clearance, or rehabilitating former soldiers into society after a conflict ends. We heard something about that in the previous debate about the Offender Rehabilitation Bill: there is a particular problem with ex-servicemen who find life difficult some years later. No doubt a whole range of activities, which might be regarded as aspects of peacekeeping and peacemaking, should involve the Ministry of Defence along with other departments. I see no reason why that should not be the case. That should involve not only other departments of government, but voluntary agencies—let us remember those too, including faith communities.
In Africa, in particular, there is a major problem of preventing aid money being swept up into a culture of corruption. Often the safest way to distribute money in those countries is through the faith communities. My most reverend friend the Archbishop of Canterbury cannot be here today, but this is a particular concern of his, as he has had a major interaction with Africa over the years, and indeed looking at his blog, as I do every night before I go to bed, there is an instance of the Episcopal Church, the Anglican Church in Sudan using money from the overseas development budget— £3 million or £4 million —to train thousands of teachers in a country where only about 1% of the young women complete secondary education. Again, that is a really important example of collaboration outside the immediate structures of government, but that should be built on collaboration within government.
I believe that this country has a proud record on overseas development. I simply want the Minister to reassure me that that will long remain the case.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for raising this subject this evening and for giving us an opportunity not just to seek clarification but to express what is clearly a strongly held view among most Members of your Lordships’ House. I refer to the inference that the expenditure pattern on development might change to assist the Ministry of Defence in what may be perceived as current difficulties with its budget, and the real strategy at the heart of what successive Governments have been trying to achieve, which was damaged by that intervention, or at least the public description of it.
I associate myself wholeheartedly with the content of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Bates, and his analysis of the importance of this issue and of conflict in fragile states. I also wholeheartedly endorse the speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester.
The Government have done remarkably well on the agenda for international development over these past three years. Many who were, perhaps in advance of the 2010 election, slightly suspicious of the Government’s commitment to international development, have been proven wrong. The consistency with which they have applied the comprehensive approach initially begun by the previous Government, by improving and expanding upon some of the procedures that were put in place, such as the Building Stability Overseas strategy, the extension of the Conflict Pool following its review, the establishment of a National Security Council, and the implementation this year of the 0.7% of gross national income of our national budget for international development, have all been important steps on the right road.
It is not just in their individual actions that the Government have been right. Having watched this closely and been pleased at what has happened over the past three years, even I was surprised to see the Chancellor on television at the time that this issue was raised, presumably by one of the Prime Minister’s aides, back in February or March, whenever it was first in the news. The Chancellor said that it was in this area of our expenditure, where we commit to an international agreement and we implement that commitment, that we give ourselves influence around the world in ways that are almost impossible through other means. To hear that coming now on a cross-party basis from these Houses of Parliament should give us all great pride.
In that context it was with dismay that I watched the debate on this issue emerge in the early months of this year. The suggestion that money could be transferred from international development to help out with the defence budget was wrong on four grounds.
First, it is against the rules. So it was a silly thing to say in the first place—it cannot be done. The idea that the international development budget could be used for non-international development purposes was never going to have any traction, and therefore to suggest that for public consumption was frankly silly. Secondly, and allied to that, it is dangerous. It puts in danger those in the field who are trying to work in the most difficult of countries and situations—those states referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Bates. It therefore makes the lives of those who take on the most difficult challenges in our world today more difficult.
Thirdly, such a suggestion reverses the strategy begun by the previous Government, built upon by this Government, on the comprehensive approach that says that, in today’s 21st-century modern world, defence, development and foreign relations cannot exist independently of each other. They will be successful only if they work together.
Fourthly, the suggestion reduces our influence internationally. Not only has the UK been implementing this strategy at home for most of the last decade, it has been leading the international strategy on this debate as well. When I was the previous Prime Minister’s special representative for peacebuilding between 2008 and 2010, I had the fascinating privilege to visit United Nations missions around the world, with both peacebuilding and peacekeeping missions. People consistently said to me—particularly local people, or those involved in national government in countries around the world where these missions exist—that the lack of co-ordination between defence, development, peacebuilding and peacekeeping, between a national strategy and the international intervention of agencies and donors, and the lack of a comprehensive strategy were the biggest blocks to building peace and ensuring that development is able to take place effectively.
If we have learnt that lesson anywhere over the past decade, we have learnt it in Somalia, where we have seen remarkable progress over the past two or three years. We should never be complacent about the situation in Somalia and the Horn of Africa, certainly not in the short or medium term. The European Union, the United Nations, the World Bank, individual donors, those involved in development and those involved in military training and expertise are all coming together in one strategy, and making a difference in trying to build a new democratic parliament and some opportunity for Somalia to build its way out of the horrors of the past 20 or 30 years. To reverse that strategy now and to play games with this issue is a dangerous thing to do.
I hope that there will be further clarification. The Minister has clarified this matter in your Lordships’ House before, but I hope tonight she will be able to do so once more. I also hope that in seeking this clarification we will say clearly to the Government that it is essential that they not only implement this strategy here in the UK, but continue to lead on it internationally, and ensure that the United Nations, the World Bank and others work together in a truly comprehensive approach across every continent.
Baroness Tonge
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on securing this debate and bringing this topic to the attention of the House. It has triggered a memory for me. As a new Member of Parliament way back in 1997, I can recall very well that a new defence review was being undertaken. I attended an interesting discussion between Ministers past and present about the concept of defence diplomacy. To my innocent ears, it sounded like a new dawn. One of the MoD’s eight missions was to,
“dispel hostility, build and maintain trust, and assist in the development of democratically controlled armed forces”.
The defence budget would fund these activities; it was brilliant. The new dawn soon faded, however, as young and not so young Ministers got the smell of cordite in their nostrils, or whatever it is that makes men—it is mainly men, I am afraid—go to war in order to try to solve the world’s problems. The last Government certainly loved their military adventures.
I have not heard much about defence diplomacy since then, but I am extremely pleased and almost proud, although I do not like that word, that our coalition Government have committed to spend 0.7% of GNI on international development, 30% of which will be spent on fragile states, which we all know are the poorest in the world and unlikely to achieve the millennium development goals. Conflict produces poverty and poverty causes violence and war; we all know that cycle. I appreciate that because of this, there needs to be co-operation between the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development.
I am extremely concerned, however, at the suggestion that by some sleight of hand the protected DfID budget will be used to shore up the unprotected MoD budget. What a fall from grace that would be. How cynical it appears, especially if the money is used directly or indirectly for things like helicopter gunships. That would do great harm to our reputation for international development throughout the world. Development and military activity, even defence diplomacy if it is still practised, however well intentioned, must be seen as separate activities. Journalists have reported from Afghanistan that the Taliban has attacked aid workers because they were thought to be collaborating with western forces. NGOs—Christian Aid in particular —have expressed their fears that aid workers’ lives will be in danger in fragile situations if they are thought to be colluding with the military. It would be disastrous.
The best way to bring about peace and stability is through poverty reduction. Young, poor and under- employed people are used as fuel for conflict. We need to concentrate on giving them better lives by educating them, especially the girls, and improving their health and prospects.
As chair of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Population Development and Reproductive Health, I must add that around 350,000 girls and women die every year in pregnancy and childbirth. The majority of them live in fragile and conflict-wracked states with no access to family planning or safe abortion, obstetric care, or even skilled birth attendants. I must also remind the House that there is an enormous unmet need for voluntary family planning around the world. The consequences of not providing family planning resources are unsustainable population levels, which lead to conflict over the world’s diminishing resources. It is a very important link. While on the subject of women and girls, the Minister would expect me to say that we must not allow Department for International Development money for safe abortion after rape in armed conflict to be diverted away from this very necessary service because of the aid policies of other countries such as the USA.
There is too much demand for aid in fragile states for it to be diverted to the needs of the Ministry of Defence, however hard it argues the case that fragile states need military intervention. It is too dangerous to contemplate, both for the people in the country affected and for aid workers operating there. I have every sympathy for Ministers who are seeing their precious defence budget cut, but the remedies are staring them in the face. Perhaps I may make a few suggestions. First, we must stop thinking that the United Kingdom should intervene in every conflict and civil war around the globe. Secondly, we must stop just fighting terrorism and start addressing the causes of terrorism—noble Lords would expect me to mention the plight of the Palestinians. Thirdly, please can we abandon the ridiculous notion that Trident needs to be replaced? Some £20 billion to £25 billion could be saved in a stroke on Trident alone. That would pay for a few helicopter gunships.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
My Lords, I, too, would like to add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for introducing this debate, and I hope that noble Lords will see that not only do the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester and I sit on the same Bench, we have a similar view on this issue. I thank my friend and colleague the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for his wisdom. I hope that I can simply embroider his words because he has said all that needs to be said. Not least is the point that this is not simply about a crude choice, it is about priorities and the particularity of aid alongside the necessity of the military.
I need to declare some interests. I am a trustee of Christian Aid, but tomorrow night I shall be having dinner with the adjutant of the Royal Hospital Chelsea, so I have some military friends and connections as well. I want to take a steer in my brief remarks from the Book of Common Prayer. The morning prayer, the second collect, is as follows:
“O God, who art the author of peace and lover of concord”.
I shall explore the difference between peace and concord. Peace is a spiritual state. It wells up in our hearts, developing harmony and good will towards others. It is what drives aid, it is what unites us across this House, and it is what unites the British people in the Government’s policy to protect 0.7% of our income for aid. There is a desire for peace through harmony, generosity and connection.
When we come to the concord bit, we have to put in place arrangements to deliver it, and it is concord that we cannot agree on. That is where we need political arrangements and sometimes military interventions to try to ensure that there is some concord. These things do not fit together easily and must be properly distinguished. I want to look at each of these emphases and put some questions to the Minister.
If we think about ordering, about the concord that we have to try to create and support across the world, my military friends would remind me that the military has always been involved in creating concord through delivering what we call aid or humanitarian support. I can give examples of this from Alexander the Great to the Napoleonic Wars. More recently, there is a priest in the diocese I serve who was in the Royal Air Force. He tells moving stories about his time as a serviceperson of being involved in humanitarian work such as the rebuilding of schools and getting supplies through lines in order to feed people who were trapped behind them. There is a long and important tradition of the military playing a constructive role in the delivery of what we would call aid. In that sense, we need to look at that military capability, which is often important in a natural disaster. Aid agencies tend to need to plan and budget carefully, but the military has the resource and dynamism to get in there and connect. If the military is going to be part of the aid scenario, we have to look at how that co-ordinates with what we understand about aid, aid agencies and DfID. Is there a case for joint training and planning, especially in relation to natural disasters, and should a co-ordinated effort be made? It is a question that can be asked and it needs to be pursued.
Let us think about the peace that aid agencies, DfID and others stand for alongside the military trying to develop and preserve concord, particularly through aid exercises. Let us think about aid more narrowly—the peace that comes from the heart through trying to connect human beings by helping women and girls, reducing infant mortality or whatever it might be. As the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said, there are tensions because, to deliver aid, people try to offer a kind of neutrality about the political context of finding order and concord. Whether there is peace or disorder, aid needs to be delivered.
Aid agencies and those in partnership with DfID try to work in partnership with the local, and often the local can see aid workers, if they are associated with the military, as foreigners and the enemy. Therefore, the aid operation on the ground, working through partnership, is put in serious danger by being associated with a foreign power.
Of course, as we have heard, the whole aid thrust of DfID and the aid agencies is about poverty reduction. It is not just about good ordering and trying to create the stability that people need. It is about positive things, such as tax justice, land distribution and trade arrangements. There is a much bigger agenda than the military can ever be involved in. So there is a place for military co-operation with the delivery of aid in some contexts. However, that must not compromise the ability of DfID and aid agencies to deliver aid in complex situations where it might be a handicap to be associated too closely with military operations that are associated with interference from a foreign power.
I conclude by asking the Minister to address a number of questions. First, will poverty eradication remain the key purpose of UK aid? Secondly, will the 0.7% commitment be targeted to aid and development and ring-fenced from foreign policy costs? Could there be some kind of quadruple lock to preserve that? Thirdly, what plans are there for the MoD and DfID to work more closely together? Fourthly, does the Minister recognise our concern for aid work if we blur the boundaries between military activity and the provision of aid? That puts the whole credibility of aid and those who deliver it in serious jeopardy.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, this has been an interesting, albeit brief, debate. Like virtually every other speaker, I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on his opening speech and on giving us the opportunity to receive, we hope, some clarification from the Government about their intentions on this issue.
The Government have previously said on more than one occasion that they are committed not only to achieving but to legislating for 0.7% of gross national income, in line with the United Nations target, to be spent on international aid and development. There was, of course, no mention of such legislation in the gracious Speech, and no indication has been given about when such legislation might appear or, indeed, why it has not appeared to date, as promised. On top of that, we are hearing suggestions from the centre of government that some United Kingdom aid might be directed to prop up a defence budget facing further cuts and also to promote trade interests and British business. As has been said, the Prime Minister announced just under four months ago that he was “very open” to spending money from the UK aid budget on peacekeeping and other security operations, and that he would like to see more of the aid budget diverted to defence by building up the Conflict Pool that is already used by the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development.
Clearly, today’s debate is an opportunity for the Government to put concerns at rest by explaining why the intended legislation has not appeared, and to give the assurances that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is seeking that there are no government plans to transfer a portion of the international development budget to the budget of the Ministry of Defence. As the former International Development Secretary, Andrew Mitchell, said, legislating on this issue of the aid budget “takes it beyond doubt” and,
“takes it out of politics”,
in a situation where all three major parties made it clear at the time of the last general election that they would legislate.
We accept, as we have consistently said, that it is essential that international development and defence are better co-ordinated and that, indeed, there should be a co-ordinated approach to tackling conflict that brings together defence, diplomacy and development. We support how the Conflict Pool can be improved and targeted and how a cross-government approach can better prevent and tackle instability. However, any suggestion that aid money can be used to offset deep defence cuts is misleading, since UK aid money can legitimately be used, in accordance with internationally agreed guidelines, only for security, demobilisation and peacekeeping, and not for core military activities. The major proportion of UK aid money must continue to be used to alleviate poverty, improve basic services and support job creation, all of which are central to ending conflicts everywhere. In that regard, can the Minister say whether any DfID review, or a review by any other competent body or organisation, is being considered or undertaken in relation to the definition used for overseas development assistance, or of the interpretation of that definition, and if there is, the purpose of such a review?
International development aid works, since it saves lives, helps reduce inequality and gives people the chance of a better future. It is also in Britain’s interests, since the unrealised potential of developing nations and their peoples represents lost trade and growth for the UK, as well as for those developing nations and the global economy. It is now time for the Government, when they come to respond, to say why the Prime Minister made the statements he did—to which the noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred—if there is no change in policy. In the light of some recent off-the-record briefings and ad hoc policy statements, as well as the continuing absence of promised legislation, it is also for the Government to show that their direction and good intentions on international development aid will not be compromised by either the consequences of their failure to meet financial targets at home or the need to appease those within their ranks who give such aid little or no priority.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for securing this debate and all noble Lords for their contributions. There has been gratifying agreement about the importance of supporting development and support for the UK’s stance in reaching 0.7% of GNI on aid. We are, of course, the first G8 country to do so. I thank noble Lords for that agreement. The noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord McConnell, the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, and other noble Lords paid very generous tribute to the Government over that, which we really appreciate.
Especially in a period of austerity, I am very proud of the fact that we have done that and know how important it is morally. Singing, I suppose, in agreement, we have the right reverend Prelates, the Bishop of Chester and the Bishop of Derby, along with other noble Lords. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and other noble Lords emphasised that and pointed out what a difference it makes to the poorest around the world. However, it is also in our own national interest that we do this, which has been recognised as well. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister pointed out on Saturday at the Nutrition for Growth summit:
“We understand that if we invest in countries before they get broken, we might not end up spending so much on dealing with problems—whether that’s immigration or new threats to our national security”.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, and other noble Lords asked further about the Prime Minister’s position. Earlier this year, in India in February, the Prime Minister said,
“conflict states … haven’t met a Millennium Development Goal between them … it’s obviously true that if you can help deliver security and help provide stability … that is the base from which all development can proceed”.
He made it clear that spending would be compliant with international rules that define aid spending.
The Prime Minister did not say that he was filling some MoD black hole with the aid budget, whatever some decided he might have meant. He was saying that we need to work together to ensure we establish security for people in fragile and conflict-affected states, so that development can be built on. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, and other noble Lords would agree with that. I note the real sophistication in this House in understanding how security and stability underpin development. As the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said, both the MoD and DfID are about human security and well-being. That was a brilliant encapsulation. They are complementary.
I assure my noble friend Lord Bates that, as he knows, as do other noble Lords, that the rules do not allow blurring. As noble Lords are well aware, and as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, pointed out, the 0.7% must be spent in line with the definitions of official development assistance—ODA—as set out by the Development Assistance Committee of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. These directives define ODA as flows to eligible countries and multilateral institutions, each transaction of which is,
“administered with the promotion of the economic development and welfare of developing countries as its main objective”.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby should find the multiple locks of the OECD reassuring. As noble Lords are well aware, the OECD directives rule out, for example, financing military equipment or services—including helicopters—unless funding is used to cover the additional costs to the military of delivering humanitarian aid.
I assure the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, in terms of aid workers being put in danger, that we are clear that humanitarian assistance should be administered impartially and on the basis of need. The protection and expansion of the humanitarian space protects aid workers from being seen as targets, but we are well aware of the general threats to them worldwide. We pay tribute to their efforts.
There is, of course, a wide understanding in this House that DfID, the FCO and the MoD need to work together, as the previous Government agreed, to ensure that we bring together development, diplomatic and defence expertise on the ground. The Building Stability Overseas strategy was produced jointly by DfID, the FCO and the MoD in July 2011 with a strong integrated approach across government at its heart, developing work done by the previous Government. Improving stability and security in fragile and conflict-affected states is vital for development. Conflict and instability undermine our efforts to reduce poverty. No conflict-affected country has met a single MDG. That is why the Government have committed to spend 30% of UK ODA in fragile and conflict-affected states by 2014-15. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, is right to emphasise that.
The UK-led Helmand provincial reconstruction team in Afghanistan is demonstrating how DfID, the MoD and the FCO can work effectively together. There we use the military’s strengths in delivery, access and know-how and the civilian staff’s political access, sector expertise and longer-term focus. This ensures maximum impact from our combined resources and expertise. Civilian and military teams work jointly to plan and deliver infrastructure projects on the ground, building schools, clinics and roads where needed and in keeping with Afghan government plans and capacity. Support for such development would not be possible without the military, which provides the security needed for governance and development to take hold.
Of course, as noble Lords know, this co-operation cannot be funded in such a way as to go beyond the OECD definitions. Therefore, for such operations, a mix of ODA and non-ODA resources is required. The Conflict Pool, to which noble Lords have referred, provides a funding mechanism made up of both resources. This was put in place by the previous Government. The mix of ODA and non-ODA is to give maximum impact. This enables the Conflict Pool to pay for military-led activities that help create stability in the most conflict-affected environments. The Conflict Pool is separate from and additional to departmental budgets.
My noble friend Lord Bates is right to praise the Conflict Pool as a tried departmental mechanism to increase the effectiveness of our programmes. Its aim is to reduce the number of people around the world whose lives are or might be affected by violent conflict. It is jointly managed by DfID, the MoD and the FCO and operates on the principle that all policy and programming decisions are taken jointly.
In 2012-13, £175 million of ODA was available through the Conflict Pool. The MoD spent about £2 million of this. As noble Lords will appreciate, the MoD spends more non-ODA from the Conflict Pool: about £40 million in 2012-13.
Like my noble friend Lady Tonge, I found myself going back a little in time as I was preparing for this debate. In 2009, for example, I submitted Written Questions to the previous Government about transfers from DfID, and I shall give a selection of the detail in the answers from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. Noble Lords will find a trail of questions and answers in the months following March 2009, should they wish to look.
In answer to me on 9 March the noble Lord mentioned that transfers from DfID to other departments included £1,650,000 to DCMS for developing sport to do with the Olympics; £300,000 to the MoD; £1 million to the FCO; £6,716,000 to the FCO; £18,899,000 to the MoD for the conflict prevention pool, and so on. There was another transfer of £917,000 to the MoD for stabilisation in Iraq and £1 million to the FCO for police reform in Pakistan. In summary, the noble Lord replied that overall transfers will not significantly affect the UK’s ODA/GNI ratio.
The word “significantly” is interesting. I noted back in my questions that almost all the transfers were in one direction—away from DfID. I hope the noble Lords, Lord McConnell, Lord Rosser, and others, will note that there is a track record for the transfer of funds to other departments from DfID. For example, after the earthquake in Pakistan in 2005, the military supported relief efforts, providing helicopters, engineers and airlift capability. A memorandum of understanding was developed in 2000 between the MoD and DfID which provides the framework for DfID to request the use of military assets where civilian capabilities are either unavailable or inadequate to meet humanitarian needs in accordance with international guidelines.
My noble friend Lord Chidgey asked about the NSC, which has considered the topic of development in conflict, as one would hope it would. This is to ensure that the Government’s efforts are as effective as possible. The MoD recently published a joint international defence engagement strategy with the FCO, and among the four pillars of that are conflict prevention, post-conflict reconstruction and stabilisation.
Of course we can understand departments looking across at other departments’ budgets, not only DfID’s, I can assure the House. I am sure the previous Government experienced the same thing. I can assure noble Lords that our commitment to cross-departmental work for development is carried out in accordance with OECD rules. Noble Lords have made it clear in the debate that they fully understand the need to ensure that we work across departments, and that is what we must do. Whether it is the MoD, the FCO and DfID, or DfID, DECC and Defra on environmental issues and climate change, or DfID, DoH and DfE on health, development and education, we must ensure that what the UK Government do has the greatest effect in the relief of poverty around the world.
Noble Lords would expect no less of us. We are clear that the Government are committed to spending 0.7% of GNI on aid. Aid is defined as official development assistance by the OECD. We need to work across departments to achieve as much as we possibly can while we work with international organisations, both public and private, as shown in the nutrition summit. We are all agreed on how important it is to deliver the MDGs and their successors so that we can eradicate poverty worldwide. There is a sophisticated understanding in this House that to achieve that requires working across government.