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Oral Answers to Questions
(10 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
1. What representations he has received from secondary ticketing platforms and those working on their behalf on amendments on secondary ticketing made to the Consumer Rights Bill in the House of Lords.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Sajid Javid)
I have not had any specific discussions with secondary ticketing platforms on the amendments made to the Consumer Rights Bill in the other place.
Mrs Hodgson
May I offer my condolences on the very sad loss this morning of the cricketer Phil Hughes? The thoughts of the whole House will be with him and his family this morning.
The Secretary of State was very keen on our ideas to improve transparency in the secondary ticketing market when I and colleagues met him in July to discuss the report of the all-party group on ticket abuse. He must therefore be delighted, as I am, that their lordships have added a new clause to the Consumer Rights Bill to deliver exactly that, although, sadly, against the Government Whip. Will he lobby his counterpart at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to leave that new clause in the Bill, so that we can finally put fans first?
Sajid Javid
I was pleased to meet the hon. Lady to discuss the issue, but she knows, because we discussed it then, that the previous Labour Government, this Government and the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport have looked at the issue and all have concluded that new legislation is not necessary. Event organisers can seek their own solutions. However, I am of course looking carefully at the new clause that was accepted in the other place and will respond to it fully in due course.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
The new clause is similar to a new clause that was defeated in this House when the Bill was going through the Commons. Should not the elected Chamber get its way, rather than the unelected Chamber? Is not this all about allowing event organisers to void or cancel tickets and place people on blacklists, denying them any guaranteed refund, which has nothing to do with transparency or protecting the interests of consumers?
Sajid Javid
I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. He and others will know that I have said that I believe that the calls for legislation have been misguided. Criminalising people and preventing them from selling tickets that they have purchased is a heavy-handed approach and is inconsistent with wider consumer rights to buy and sell items that they freely own.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
May I associate myself with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) regarding Phil Hughes and also mention Sean Abbott, the bowler involved in that tragic accident, who must be feeling terrible?
The Secretary of State’s response is just not good enough. The Government have failed to act to protect rugby world cup fans and now the same is happening to cricket fans. Ashes tickets for the Lord’s test are on sale on the secondary ticketing market for £1,500, yet the ballot and the prices will not be available until next month. What is more worrying is that the Football Association, the England and Wales Cricket Board, the Rugby Football Union and the Lawn Tennis Association all wrote to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to warn him that unless the Government act they will be forced to put their prices up to secondary ticketing levels, so at least the money that is being made can be invested back into sport. That may be music to the Government’s free market ears but it is a disaster for sports fans on moderate and low incomes. When will the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport get a grip and act? He must do it quickly.
Sajid Javid
The hon. Gentleman knows all too well that when his party was in office it failed to act on the issue. He will also know that the previous Government looked at the issue in detail, as did the Select Committee at that time, and all concluded that it is for event organisers to take action. With newer technology, and technology improving all the time, there are probably more ways to do so.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that existing secondary market companies already provide safe and secure means for ticket holders to resell unwanted tickets and that they provide a level of consumer protection that will not be available if people are forced to go on to the black market on the streets?
Sajid Javid
I agree. People have rightly raised concerns about the sale of fraudulent or non-existent tickets and about people who provide misleading information. That is already a criminal act.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
2. What progress he has made on ensuring that the first world war is appropriately commemorated.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Sajid Javid)
The events my Department hosted on 4 August set a fitting tone and this month my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced a memorable and dignified programme of events to commemorate the Gallipoli campaign. We are also offering further programmes that allow local communities to mark the centenary in their own way.
Andrew Rosindell
In this year of the 100th anniversary of the first world war, it is of course right that the ambassador of Ireland was asked to lay a wreath for the first time ever at the cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday. As the Secretary of State is responsible for the arrangements for the national service in Whitehall on Remembrance Sunday, will he please explain why it is still not possible for representatives of Her Majesty’s territories and dependencies to lay their own wreaths in their own right, and will he undertake to put this right for next year?
Sajid Javid
I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend that it was absolutely right to invite the Government of Ireland to lay a wreath at the national remembrance day service. It was an opportunity to mark our nations’ shared sacrifice. My hon. Friend will also be aware that Her Majesty the Queen lays a wreath on behalf of our country and the Crown dependencies and the Foreign Secretary does so on behalf of British overseas territories. I have to tell my hon. Friend that at this point we have no plans to change these arrangements.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
Christmas eve is the 200th anniversary of the ending of the North American war between the United States and the United Kingdom. Does the Secretary of State agree that that is also worthy of a fitting tribute, perhaps of celebration and not just commemoration?
Sajid Javid
My hon. Friend raises an important issue. It is not something I have looked at carefully, but now he has mentioned it, I will take a look.
Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)
Our perceptions of the first world war have been shaped by historians but also by the artists of the time. The team at 14-18 NOW, in particular Jenny Waldman and Vikki Heywood, have helped artists today shape our commemorations of this important event. Blood Swept Lands and Seas of Red at the Tower of London is part of the 14-18 NOW work and I am sure the Secretary of State will want to join me in putting on record the thanks of the entire House to the incredible team of volunteers who have made this happen.
Sajid Javid
I wholeheartedly join my right hon. Friend in commending them for the work they have done. The poppies at the Tower captured the imagination of the whole nation. I had the privilege of planting a poppy myself, and I was pleased that the Government could act with 14-18 NOW to make sure part of that poppy display will now tour the country over the next four years.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
A lot of the questions today have been about national acts of remembrance, but I hope Members will take the opportunity to remember the 100th anniversary in their own constituencies. Will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating Brent Stevenson, a monumental mason from Darwen, who, free of charge, is providing a new world war one memorial in the centre of Darwen?
Sajid Javid
Yes, I will. I have heard of the work Brent Stevenson is doing and I wholeheartedly commend that. My Department and the Department for Communities and Local Government are helping to provide funding and other ways of support to local communities to commemorate the war in their own way.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
4. What recent estimate he has made of the contribution of tourism to the economy.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
10. What recent estimate he has made of the contribution of tourism to the economy.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)
The tourism industry was worth an estimated £127 billion gross value added to the UK economy in 2013. Some £58 billion of this is direct contribution. Tourism supports 3.1 million jobs in the UK.
Andrew Bingham
Christmas lights are being turned on across the whole of my High Peak constituency at the moment, with the village of Castleton proving a particular draw to tourists from all around. Does my hon. Friend agree that tourism in this country is a year-round phenomenon, not just for the summer, and consequently provides a huge boost to my constituency and the whole country? Furthermore, will she join me in paying tribute to all the volunteers across High Peak and the country who spend this time of year putting up Christmas trees to create the festive atmosphere that so many people enjoy?
Mark Menzies
Hoteliers on the Fylde coast have told me they have had one of the best tourist seasons in well over a decade. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure the great British coastal resorts such as those in Fylde have a bumper 2015?
Mrs Grant
Coastal towns are an important part of our tourism economy, and I am pleased to say that the Government have recently announced £10 million of funding for tourism in the north of England. I hope that the resort of Fylde will get involved with the fund, which will bring even more tourists to our fantastic northern coastal towns.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
We do not have any coastline in Huddersfield, but we do have more—[Interruption.] Hang on, guys! We have more listed buildings than most towns, including York and Cambridge. There are 1,500 in the centre of Huddersfield and another 1,500 in greater Huddersfield. We know the value of tourism, and we know that it depends on the cultural life of our communities. However, that cultural life is being swept away by Government cuts, with a cruel Treasury cutting, cutting, cutting. Many of our great exhibitions and festivals are being cut to the bone. What is the Minister going to do about that?
Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con)
The great opportunity in the tourism market in the years ahead will be in attracting Chinese tourists. Britain has been improving in its ability to do that, and I know that the Minister and the Secretary of State have taken a personal interest in that area, particularly in relation to visas. We know that Chinese tourists are surprisingly adventurous and want to get out of London and into the regions, and we are seeing more of that in the midlands and Scotland. What more can the Government do to market the regions—particularly the east midlands—to get those wealthy Chinese tourists out of London and the south-east?
Mrs Grant
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. VisitEngland and VisitBritain promote the nations and the regions, and they do a very good job. VB does it through its GREAT and tactical campaigns, and VE does it through its very successful holidays at home campaigns. The local growth fund, the regional growth fund, the coastal community fund and the recently established £10 million fund for the north are all helpful in growing local tourism outside London.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
5. What steps he is taking to provide broadband of up to 2 megabits in areas currently not served. [R]
The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy (Mr Edward Vaizey)
I am pleased to be able to tell my hon. Friend that Ofcom reports that 97% of premises in the UK already have access to broadband speeds of at least 2 megabits. The Government are committed to ensuring that the whole country will be able to receive 2 megabits as soon as possible.
Michael Fabricant
Well, I would not want to accuse my hon. Friend—and he is a friend—of being smug, but what about the other 3%? May I just say how utterly frustrating it is to hear about superfast broadband when parts of my constituency such as Tatenhill, and other parts of the United Kingdom, have no broadband at all?
Mr Vaizey
I am very far from being smug. Having read my hon. Friend’s interview in which he waxed lyrical about his “bromance” with the Chief Whip, imagine how I felt after our years of friendship. Nevertheless, I remain resolute in supporting him, and I am pleased to be able to tell him that Staffordshire as a whole has received £9 million to connect to superfast broadband and that his own constituency will see 8,000 homes committed under our programme. That is real “bromance”, Mr Speaker.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
Even in the tech hub at the heart of my constituency we have huge challenges with broadband, as the Minister knows. One of the main barriers to having high speeds everywhere is the fact that competitors are unable to put their equipment on buildings without the permission of the landowner. Is it not time for a change in the planning laws? What conversations is he having with his counterparts in the Department for Communities and Local Government to ensure that that is delivered?
Mr Vaizey
I am pleased to tell the hon. Lady that I have sat down with representatives of the City of London to talk about broadband in central London. I was also pleased to hear the City of London’s plans to roll out its own broadband network, because competition is very important. She raises an important point, and we will continue to keep that matter under review.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
The Abbotsford estate on the edge of Romsey is a brand-new, 800-home development that still suffers from broadband speeds of less than 2 megabits. Does the Minister agree that it will be an enormously long wait until 2017 for those residents to get decent speeds?
Mr Vaizey
There are two answers to that question. The first is that we have sat down with developers and network providers to work on a code of conduct to ensure that new developments get broadband. Secondly, it is worth reminding hon. Members, including my hon. Friend, that this is a difficult engineering project. We cannot deliver broadband with the wave of a wand, but we are ahead of schedule in almost all areas.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
9. At a time when the Government are making more and more services digital by default, does the Minister believe it is acceptable for 1.2 million homes across the UK, including 113,000 in Scotland, still to have no access to broadband whatsoever? What are the Government doing putting back their timetable for superfast broadband? Should we not have universal coverage now?
Mr Vaizey
All homes do have access to broadband; 97% have access to broadband at speeds of 2 megabits; superfast broadband availability has doubled; the average speed of broadband has trebled; one in four people in this country have superfast broadband; and we have the lowest prices of the European Union big five and the United States.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I hate to break up the “bromance” but 28% of farms and rural businesses across Thirsk, Malton and Filey will not have any fast-speed broadband, not even 2 megabits, by 2016, yet the Government are making us all go digital by default. What measures will the Minister take to allow farms and rural businesses to access rural broadband before digital by default goes live?
Mr Vaizey
As I said, we are well ahead of schedule with our roll-out of superfast broadband. On Yorkshire, North Yorkshire was one of the first out of the traps, and more than 60,000 homes have been connected through that programme. We also have a £10 million pilot scheme to connect the most remote parts of the country, and that is going very well.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
Many people were pleased to see the Government’s announcement of 1,000 free wi-fi hot spots across the country, but the map on the Department’s website shows that Glasgow, Newcastle, Nottingham, Sheffield and Bristol, with a combined population of 4 million, have no provision at all. What criteria did the Minister use when choosing locations? How could he possibly miss those great cities?
Mr Vaizey
Well, we worked with the cities, so they came up with up their own proposals. I believe that Newcastle has a cloud computing centre, using its super-connected cities programme, and Bristol, too, has a fast-speed internet hub. So it is up to the cities how they choose to use the money. The criteria have come from the cities and they are the ones that have chosen which public buildings they want to put wi-fi in.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
6. What progress he has made on ensuring that mobile network operators and broadband providers provide adequate coverage in rural areas of Northumberland.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Sajid Javid)
As we have heard, mobile communication is critical to the rural economy. We are therefore working with Ofcom to identify gaps in mobile coverage, and I have consulted on potential measures to tackle patchy coverage. In addition, the Government have allocated £9.5 million to increase superfast broadband coverage in Northumberland to almost 90% by 2016.
Guy Opperman
I accept that we are making progress in Northumberland, but my constituents in many parts, such as Kielder, Dalton, Stamfordham, Stocksfield and Byrness, suffer from very poor mobile and broadband reception, or zero coverage. May I ask the Minister to visit soon, to push BT and the other providers and, frankly, kick ‘em up the arse, and generally to push ahead so that we have a campaign whereby there are no no-go areas and no go-slow areas?
Sajid Javid
I share my hon. Friend’s frustration, but perhaps not in the same way! My Bromsgrove constituency has areas with similar coverage problems, so I can absolutely see the importance of the issue he is raising and how big the problem is for towns such as Kielder. I look forward to visiting Northumberland soon and I will apply whatever pressure I can to BT and others to end this scourge of not spots and poor, slow broadband speeds.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Innovative small business in my constituency, such as Shepherds Walks in Rothbury, have doubled their business as a result of the availability of superfast broadband under this valuable scheme. The remaining areas have businesses that could do the same if they were given a chance, so can he report any progress on alternative technical solutions for the most difficult-to-reach areas?
Sajid Javid
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right about the impact that superfast broadband can have on businesses, helping them to grow. As he will know, there is a phase 3 to our broadband plan, which is the so-called “last 5%”, and we are working on that simultaneously—we are not waiting for phases 1 and 2. We are working on that right now, and we recently had a £10 million programme to test the feasibility of various projects. We are looking into the results and seeing what can be done.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
7. What plans he has to bring forward legislative proposals to bring ratings for music videos online into line with British Board of Film Classification standards.
The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy (Mr Edward Vaizey)
I welcome the commitment that music labels and digital service providers have made to pilot the British Board of Film Classification age ratings for online music videos where they are unsuitable for younger children. Since it was launched on 1 October, 49 music videos have been classified by the BBFC under the pilot, and the rating symbols should start appearing on YouTube and Vevo towards the end of the year.
Diana Johnson
Why does the voluntary pilot scheme apply only to UK musicians?
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
8. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of mobile phone coverage in rural areas.
The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy (Mr Edward Vaizey)
Mobile coverage at 2G reaches 99% of premises, but my hon. Friend is well aware of the issues that we have with not spots and partial not spots, which is why we have in place the mobile infrastructure programme and why we are currently consulting on roaming.
John Glen
I thank the Minister for that answer. Although I welcome the recent consultation on partial not spots, many areas in rural Wiltshire, such as Bishopstone, remain without any coverage at all. Vodafone’s decision to introduce open sure signal technology in Broad Chalke, as it has recently done in Winterslow, will be revolutionary. What more can be done to incentivise companies such as Vodafone systematically to roll out those solutions before the outcome of the consultation?
Mr Vaizey
When Vodafone announced that scheme, I ensured that all the villages in my constituency were aware of it and encouraged them to apply for it. Bishopstone will be covered under our mobile infrastructure programme. I certainly encourage mobile operators to roll out such solutions. I do not understand why they do not offer villages an off-the-shelf service, as many parish councils would look seriously at funding such a scheme.
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)
I commend my hon. Friend and the Secretary of State for their efforts to address this problem of partial not spots and not spots. But does my hon. Friend agree that the best solution would be to obtain an agreement with the industry on how to move forward and that it may also require the Government to make some changes to the electronic communications code and possibly the planning rules?
Mr Vaizey
When I said that we are consulting on national roaming, I should have made it clear that we are consulting on a range of options, and a voluntary agreement with the operator remains our preferred solution. Looking at the electronic communications code and the planning laws is also part of the options that we are considering.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
It is good that the Government are giving Arqiva £150 million to put up mobile phone masts in not spots, but they are moving extremely slowly, and they cannot tell anybody what their plans are for Argyll and Bute. Will the Minister urge them to get a move on and to be more transparent with their plans?
Mr Vaizey
We are trying to be as transparent as possible. If my hon. Friend wishes to give me his specific concerns, I will ensure that he gets a full response. This is a technically challenging programme, precisely because these masts are going up in areas that are difficult to reach and where there has previously been no coverage.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
11. What recent funding his Department has provided for the fabric of cathedrals in England.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Sajid Javid)
In this year’s Budget, the Chancellor announced a £20 million fund to allow cathedrals to undertake urgent repair work. As my hon. Friend knows, that included £330,000 for the beautiful Worcester cathedral. In addition, cathedrals have access to the listed places of worship grant scheme, which has a budget of up to £42 million per annum.
Mr Walker
I am grateful for that answer. May I add my condolences on the tragic death of Phil Hughes, who is fondly remembered in Worcestershire, where he used to play?
I was pleased recently to welcome the Secretary of State to Worcester cathedral for a magnificent performance of Shakespeare. Will he join me in celebrating the fact that, in the year that Bishop John of Worcester has taken the lead for the Church of England on cathedrals and church buildings, the east window at Worcester cathedral will be being restored with that grant of £330,000?
Sajid Javid
May I first say to my hon. Friend that I thoroughly enjoyed visiting the cathedral with him and seeing “Julius Caesar”. It is an excellent demonstration of how our cathedrals can be open to so many activities in our local communities. In fact, I have seen similar events recently at Rochester and Portsmouth cathedrals. With regard to Bishop John, I was actually just discussing that very matter with His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury yesterday, and I join my hon. Friend in warmly congratulating the bishop on his position.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
I warmly thank the Secretary of State for the £20 million grant for cathedrals, which has enabled some 41 cathedrals to carry out various works and repairs from fixing leaking roofs, repairing stained-glass windows and spires and carrying out many other important works to enable them to commemorate the centenary celebrations. Does my right hon. Friend agree that cathedrals are powerful symbols of our shared history and are also the envy of the world? They bring in many tourists, so this investment by the state in our cathedrals is great value for taxpayers.
Sajid Javid
Yes, I agree fully with my right hon. Friend. He will know that of the £20 million we allocated in that grant, £13 million has been used so there is still about £7 million left to go. I urge other cathedrals to take advantage of that and to work to help their local communities.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
12. What assistance his Department has provided to sports bodies to encourage world-class sporting events to be held in the UK.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)
Through UK Sport, we have invested £27 million to bring more than 70 major sporting events to the UK. The Government also made available an extra £10 million to support last year’s excellent Tour de France Grand Départ.
Damian Collins
Does the Minister agree that the recent chaos at FIFA demonstrates that it is not fit to govern world football? Will she confirm that the Government would not support a future bid from England to host the World cup while the current leadership team at FIFA remains in place?
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
The Minister will be aware that in Harrogate and Knaresborough we staged part of the hugely successful Grand Départ of the Tour de France this year. It had a huge impact on our tourism economy and will have a broader impact on the economy over the years ahead. Will the Minister assure the House that she will do everything she can to make it as easy as possible for major sporting events to be held here? By easy, I mean by providing support through measures such as ticketing assistance and an efficient visa system.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
13. When he plans to announce his decision on whether to change Ofcom’s appeals process.
The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy (Mr Edward Vaizey)
No decision has been made on the appeals process. However, we will make an announcement through the normal channels once we have reached a decision.
John Robertson
I thank the Minister for that extensive answer. May I urge him to consider Ofcom and the deal for mobile companies? For example, only 9% of people will switch companies. We have had the same kind of problems in the energy market and people are now working hand over fist trying to help people switch mobile phone providers. It takes seconds for a company to let somebody switch their phone, so it is time that those companies were brought to book and we need to give teeth to the regulator.
Mr Vaizey
I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. I tried to keep my answer as short as his rather radical haircut, which looks very impressive this morning. We are sympathetic to the concerns that the current framework for appeals against Ofcom’s decisions are costly and lengthy, but we need to strike the right balance between providing a proper right of challenge and allowing the regulator to make timely and effective decisions.
Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)
14. What recent discussions he has had with the organisers of the 2015 rugby world cup on ticket touting.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)
I meet often with the organisers of the rugby world cup and we continue to discuss ways to ensure that all fans can purchase tickets in a safe and secure way.
Julie Elliott
As a rugby fan, it appals me to see tickets for the rugby world cup being listed online for thousands of pounds. Will the Government now accept that they were wrong not to protect genuine fans from touts and support the amendment that their lordships have recently passed?
Mrs Grant
As has already been clearly stated by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, the Government believe that organisers, promoters and ticket agents should do everything they can to find solutions to deal with the secondary market. Successive Governments and Select Committees have ruled, found and concluded that regulation should be a very last resort.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that the 2015 world cup will be a fantastic celebration of the game of rugby? There will be plenty of tickets available at large stadia venues around the country, including Brighton, Milton Keynes, Newcastle and Leicester. That means that anyone wishing to watch a game during the rugby world cup will be able to do so.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
15. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of children’s access to the creative arts; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy (Mr Edward Vaizey)
Between 2012 and 2015, we are going to invest £15 million in cultural education and we are investing hundreds of millions of pounds in music education.
Fiona Mactaggart
Yet his own Department’s survey shows that a third of secondary boys and a fifth of secondary girls do not access arts activities outside schools. In a recent speech the Secretary of State for Education said that arts were not the basis for a successful career, yet the creative industries provide 6% of our national wealth. What is the Minister doing to increase children’s access to arts beyond school?
Mr Vaizey
The Secretary of State for Education was not saying that. She was simply making the point that a lot of people said that doing a maths or science degree narrowed children’s career opportunities. She was correcting that impression; it was not an either/or. Both channels are good ways to get wonderful career opportunities after leaving school.
We are working with Into Film, providing film education for hundreds of thousands of children. We are working with English Heritage on the new heritage schools initiative, which has massively increased engagement with heritage already. We are funding the Sorrell Saturday clubs, and we are working with the Arts Council on arts awards and the pioneering Artsbox.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
The situation that the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) describes is not the situation in Kettering, where there are loads of dance, ballet, theatre and other groups, with many dedicated and committed volunteers. Would my hon. Friend the Minister like to take this opportunity to praise all those volunteers and all the mums and dads who put the extra effort in outside school to ensure that their children engage in worthwhile activities?
Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)
My hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) is right. The Education Secretary said that choosing arts subjects held back pupils for the rest of their lives. Our arts and creative sector is a key part of what makes this country great, and an economic powerhouse for us, which we saw at this week’s launch of the Creative Industries Federation. Ensuring that pupils get a good creative education is important for the development of each and every one of them, but also necessary to build the audience and the work force for those industries in the future.
Should the Culture Secretary not be making sure that this Education Secretary, unlike the previous one, supports creativity in schools rather than devaluing it, which is exactly what she is doing?
Mr Vaizey
The previous Education Secretary was the one who ring-fenced music education and funded cultural education programmes. This Education Secretary has increased the budget for music education by £18 million. By praising the opportunities that are provided by science and maths education, one does not denigrate cultural education. This Education Secretary takes cultural education extremely seriously, and the Department for Education is a joy to work with in supporting our programmes.
Mr Speaker
We move on to Topical Questions. Colleagues, led by the Secretary of State, might wish shortly to join me in congratulating Switzerland on winning the Davis cup last weekend for the first time—a great team effort, notable among other things for the inimitable brilliance of Mr Roger Federer.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Sajid Javid)
May I begin by saying how saddened I was to learn this morning that the young Australian cricketer Phil Hughes has died. I am sure that I speak on behalf of the whole House in saying that our thoughts are with his team mates, his friends and his family.
I take this opportunity to congratulate Lewis Hamilton on his second Formula 1 world title, to applaud the record crowd that supported England’s women at Wembley this Sunday and to wish a happy 20th birthday to the national lottery.
Jake Berry
Today is Lancashire day, when we celebrate all that is great about the red rose county. Will my right hon. Friend join me in celebrating Lancashire, and encourage people to come and visit our tourist attractions such as East Lancashire railway, Healey Dell and Turton Tower, as well as the other tourism jewels in the red rose county?
Sajid Javid
I will wholeheartedly join my hon. Friend, not least because I was born in Lancashire and it is my home county, so I know more than most, perhaps, about everything that Lancashire has to offer by way of attractions, sites and heritage. Lancashire day is a fantastic day to showcase that.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
T2. The Secretary of State knows a lot about social investment tax relief. I worked happily with him on many aspects of crowdfunding, and he knows that crowdfunding provides an amazing opportunity for people to get together to start cultural and artistic events and raise the money for that. Will he have a quiet word with his old boss, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, about increasing the cap on social investment tax relief before the autumn statement?
Sajid Javid
The hon. Gentleman will have to wait to see what is in the autumn statement, but he raises an important point. I remember the discussions we had about crowdfunding, and he is right about the importance that it has for businesses and for cultural activities. I have discussed that on many occasions with colleagues.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
T4. My right hon. Friend will be aware that the town of Rugby is the birthplace of the great game in which England’s men were world cup winners in 2003 and they were awarded the freedom of the borough of Rugby. Will he join me in congratulating England’s women rugby players on winning their world cup earlier this year and on their award of the freedom of the borough of Rugby, which will be made at a ceremony in Rugby next month?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)
It is fantastic that the women’s team is visiting Rugby on 10 December. I am very pleased that they are being rightly recognised in the same way as the men were when they won the world cup in 2003. The support that our women’s team has been receiving is brilliant.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
T3. I thank the Sports Minister for her diligent work in securing the funding for our GB basketball teams from Sport England, which means that our women’s team can go off to take part in the EuroBasket tournament next year. Does the hon. Lady agree that supporting elite team sports should be the role of UK Sport? Does she therefore share my hope that the consultation currently under way on the future of UK Sport will result on it focusing on delivering social value and support for team sports, as well as medals?
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
T5. As a cricketer, I echo the sympathies for the wonderful Phil Hughes, whose loss is tragic. I welcome the announcement that Ponteland middle school will have a new artificial grass football pitch funded by the Premier League, the Football Association and Sport England. May I urge the DCMS to carry out an audit of all my constituency so that other pitches may be installed very soon?
Mrs Grant
I am delighted that Ponteland community middle school has been successful in its application. Artificial pitches are amazing and increase participation, community involvement and talent development, which is how we will grow the game. I am happy to look, with my hon. Friend, at what scope there might be for further projects.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
T6. Given reports that alcohol advertising in Formula 1 might go the same way as tobacco advertising, and given that this is an area where there has been some concern in the past, can the Minister give an assurance that any discussions that are entered into with Formula 1 teams will be open and accountable, and will seek to preserve our great British motorsport industry as well?
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
Does the Secretary of State agree with the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) who said last week that £2.80 or so a week for the BBC
“is tremendous value, but only if you watch it.”
Given that over 96% of people access the BBC every week, does that not show what good value the licence fee is?
Sajid Javid
Like my hon. Friend, I am very proud of the BBC. It is well respected not just at home, but abroad, and rightly so. However, we have to recognise that there have been serious changes in technology over the past decade, and when the charter review takes place, all issues should be looked at, including those raised by colleagues.
Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab)
T7. On the 20th anniversary of the national lottery, it is a fact that twice as many households in the north-east play the lottery, compared with London, but the region receives only half the grants that London gets. Does the Minister think that is fair?
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
May I add my condolences to those already expressed on the death of Phil Hughes? I declare an interest, as my brother is Sky television’s cricket correspondent.
I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for meeting me and a delegation from Plymouth earlier this month to talk about Mayflower 2020, the anniversary of the founding of the American colonies. Does he agree that Mayflower 2020 could contribute similar levels of growth in Devon and Cornwall to those we have seen from the “Gathering” in Northern Ireland and Ireland?
Sajid Javid
I was pleased to meet my hon. Friend and representatives from his constituency to discuss that important point in history, which I think it is right to mark. Another good reason to look at it is that it could do a lot for the local economy.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
Five years ago the previous Labour Government made a commitment on universal broadband access for everyone. The Minister might talk superfast, but the fact is that up and down the country people and businesses are waiting to get decent broadband so that they can carry on their business and that essential part of their lives that is now lived online. What is he going to do about it?
The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy (Mr Edward Vaizey)
Five years ago the previous Labour Government made an unfunded commitment to deliver 2 megabits broadband. There was no way in which they would be able to see that through. We have doubled the availability of superfast broadband and provided 2 megabits to 97% of the country. One in four now have superfast broadband. We have the best broadband in the EU big five, and the cheapest.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
What discussions has the hon. Lady had with her colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government to ensure that in growing towns such as Chippenham development brings more sports pitches and pavilions, not fewer?
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
The Newcastle United supporters trust fully supports Labour’s football governance strategy, which will mean that for the first time supporters will be guaranteed a place on the board. Will the Minister join me in congratulating the trust on developing a credit union in the best interests of the supporters and people in the north-east?
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
It is clear from the number of complaints I have received that the Telephone Preference Service is simply not working. I urge the Secretary of State to take whatever action is needed to stop nuisance telephone calls.
Mr Vaizey
Ofcom ran an inquiry into the Telephone Preference Service, which showed that being a member does significantly reduce the number of nuisance calls received. As my hon. Friend must be aware, we have consulted extensively and changed the law in order to reduce the impact of nuisance calls.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
We have heard about the success of our tourism section, but the business tourism sector is sometimes overlooked. The conference market is very international and huge in scale. It plays a significant role in my constituency, with the Harrogate International Centre driving much of our local economy. I ask the Minister to focus on that, alongside all her other work to promote our tourism sector.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
1. What assessment she has made of the effects of the under-occupancy penalty on disabled people.
The Minister for Disabled People (Mr Mark Harper)
The removal of the spare room subsidy is just making sure that the same rules apply in the social housing sector as apply in the private sector, as implemented by the previous Labour Government. To deal with difficult cases, the Government have made available a significant amount of discretionary housing payment to give local authorities the flexibility they need to deal with cases where disabled people need more support.
Mr Spellar
According to the Government’s own evaluation, 68% of those hit by the bedroom tax are themselves disabled or have someone in their household with a disability. Is the Minister not ashamed of that figure? When will the Government scrap that cruel and unfair tax?
Mr Harper
I note that the right hon. Gentleman did not deal with the point that I made. We are treating people in the social housing sector in exactly the same way as the previous Government treated them—[Interruption.] I hear someone heckling on the Labour Benches. Disabled people do not get a spare room subsidy in the private sector. Those rules were implemented by the previous Labour Government. This is a matter of fairness. The £345 million we have made available to local authorities over the past two years for discretionary housing payment gives them the flexibility they need to deal with individual circumstances.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Will the Minister name and shame the five worst local authorities that have the largest number of disabled people who are affected by the spare room subsidy removal but are not using the discretionary funds that the Government have given them?
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
I was going to ask exactly the same question as the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone). Will the Minister name and shame all local authorities that are failing to provide discretionary housing benefit for people who are being penalised as a result of their disability?
Mr Harper
We do have records of the amount of money that the Government make available to local authorities. In the interests of transparency, I will put in the Library details of the money made available by the Government and the extent to which local authorities take up that generous allocation of funding.
Mr Speaker
No colleague need be shy; repetition is not an unknown phenomenon in the House of Commons.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
2. What steps she is taking to ensure equal pay for men and women.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
8. What steps she is taking to ensure equal pay for men and women.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities (Jo Swinson)
It is good to see that over the past year the gender pay gap has fallen significantly to 19.1%—its lowest ever level. However, we are determined to build on this, and our aim must be to eliminate the gender pay gap. We are promoting pay transparency through the Think, Act, Report initiative; transforming the workplace to ensure flexible working and shared parental leave; and, through the Your Life campaign, encouraging girls and young women to consider a wide range of careers, including well-paid careers in technology and engineering.
Chi Onwurah
On Monday, the headline in Newcastle’s The Journal was “Women pay high price for the long slump”, highlighting the fact that in the north-east the gender pay gap is rising; in Newcastle, it stands at 16%. Why is the Minister’s Government making women pay for the financial crisis caused by the banks, and what is she going to do about it?
Jo Swinson
The hon. Lady is rather interesting in her portrayal of the circumstances that led up to the financial crisis, particularly regarding the part that her party’s Government might have had to play in that situation. I have pointed out that this Government are absolutely determined to eliminate the pay gap and to make sure that it continues to fall as it has over the past year. We also have more women in work than ever before. We have created 2 million extra jobs over the course of this Government’s time in office, and unemployment has been falling across the country, including in the north-east of England.
Alex Cunningham
The Minister talks of grand initiatives, but the hourly rate of pay for women working part time is a third less than that for their full-time counterparts. Given that 42% of all working women now work part time, does the Minister think that it is time for big companies to publish the average hourly pay for men and women in their work force to expose this continued pay gap?
Jo Swinson
The hon. Gentleman raises several issues. It is true that, for men and women, part-time work is often paid at a lower rate. Of course, as he points out, many women are working part time. This is an important issue where we need generally to value much more the contribution made by people working part time. Organisations such as Timewise are doing some wonderful work that tries to remove the stigma around working part time by highlighting people at very senior levels who are doing so. He is right that transparency is a really important tool in making sure that this can be tackled. That is why we have the Think, Act, Report initiative to encourage companies to think about and act on the issue, but also, crucially, to report on it.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
My hon. Friend talks about encouraging more women into engineering. In Rossendale and Darwen, we have a high-tech engineering work force. What steps are the Government taking to encourage women to take up these fantastic jobs in engineering, which tend to be some of the highest paid in my constituency?
Jo Swinson
The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight this as a hugely important issue. Only 7% of engineers are women, and these jobs, as he rightly says, are often very well paid. As the Perkins review set out very clearly, we urgently need more engineers in terms of our overall economy and skills, and we therefore need more women to fill that gap. We have announced a £30 million fund to increase the supply of engineers and encourage more women into the area, £10 million of which is specifically earmarked for our Developing Women Engineers programme. We are working with the Royal Academy of Engineering and with organisations such as the Institute of Physics, because making sure that girls take the subjects that open up an engineering career to them is also really important in making sure that this happens.
Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)
We all praise companies such as Friends Life, Genesis Housing and PricewaterhouseCoopers which annually publish their gender pay gap because they want to reduce it, but there are too few examples of that. Can we therefore achieve cross-party consensus and will all the parties back Labour’s proposal—we will bring it to the House next month—to require all big companies to publish annually their pay gap?
Jo Swinson
The hon. Lady is quite right to say that there is cross-party agreement that this issue needs to be tackled. The 2010 equality strategy set out very clearly that we would pursue the voluntary approach and then assess how it was working and come to a conclusion about what needed to happen next. The hon. Lady will be aware that my party published proposals—I am delighted that her party has subsequently agreed with them—to implement section 78 of the Equality Act 2010. I am sure that the issue will be very much discussed in the approaching election and that all parties will want to set out very clearly how they propose to tackle the pay gap.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
3. What discussions she has had with charities and pressure groups on a charter for women or a women’s bill of rights.
The Minister for Women and Equalities (Nicky Morgan)
I regularly engage with women’s organisations at one-to-one meetings, round tables and consultation events, and through social media. The Government are currently carrying out an online survey on women’s views of progress on improving women’s lives and on where there is most need for work still to be done. As part of that engagement, I regularly discuss the UN convention on women, which is sometimes known as the international Bill of Rights for women.
Mr Sheerman
The Minister knows that it has been a long, hard struggle to get equal rights for women and we are not there yet. There are significant elements in our communities who do not believe in equal rights for women. I want the Minister to introduce a charter that gives every female child in this country information on what their rights to equality are. I want that to be clear to every little child, wherever in this country they are brought up, whatever their family background and whichever school they attend. Does the Minister agree with that?
Nicky Morgan
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that, although we have made great strides towards equality, there is still much more to do. He will know that, as Secretary of State for Education, I have recently spoken of the broad and balanced curriculum, British values—which include, obviously, mutual respect and tolerance—and education on girls’ rights. I have not heard anybody apart from the hon. Gentleman call for a Bill of Rights. To be honest, I prefer to look at what works on the ground and make sure that there are lessons and strong female role models in all communities and all schools right across the country. Of course, however, the idea is interesting.
Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)
Women’s rights are incredibly important and we need to ensure that women are at the heart of decision making. My right hon. Friend is the Minister for Women and Equalities, but, unusually, no specific Committee of the House is tasked with holding the Government to account on the work of the Government Equalities Office. Will my right hon. Friend meet me to discuss the issue further, as I believe the right thing to do would be to set up a women and equalities Select Committee at the start of the next Session of Parliament?
Nicky Morgan
I thank my hon. Friend very much indeed for that question. The Leader of the House is in his place and I am sure he will have heard her request. I am, of course, very happy to have a meeting. This is a matter for the House, but I look forward to discussing it with my hon. Friend.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
If there was such a charter or Bill, would not there be an obligation on television companies, including the BBC, to explain why it is that, while men in their late 70s can carry out their job as lead presenters—and do it very well, no doubt—once women reach their 40s there is almost a ban? Why this discrimination?
Nicky Morgan
Perhaps for the first time, I think I agree with the hon. Gentleman. He might be interested to look at the evidence taken by the House of Lords Select Committee on Communications as part of its inquiry into women in broadcasting and the media, to which I recently gave evidence. I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that having positive role models—women of all ages and all backgrounds—represented in the media and national newspapers is incredibly important.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
In England, 18-year-old women are a third more likely to apply for a university place than their male counterparts. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that shows how far we have come in terms of girls’ educational attainment, but that there is still further to go?
Nicky Morgan
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As we know, women now make up the majority of the numbers in many different subjects right across our universities. In fact, in the university I represent in my constituency of Loughborough, I understand that more women than men are taking engineering degrees. However, we all clearly have a long way to go.
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)
4. What steps the Government have taken to support parents with child care responsibilities.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities (Jo Swinson)
We have increased free early education hours for three and four-year-olds, and in September we extended it to 260,000 two-year-olds. From next autumn, almost 2 million people could benefit from the new tax-free child care scheme, worth up to £2,000 a child. From April, couples will be able to choose how they manage their child care responsibilities, as we have introduced shared parental leave.
Mr Sharma
When Labour left office, 99% of schools provided access to breakfast and after-school clubs, but since the Government removed the ring fence more than a third of local authorities report that the provision has been scaled back in their area. Does the Minister now agree that that was a mistake, and will she back our plan to legislate to give parents a guarantee?
Jo Swinson
The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the issue. After-school and breakfast clubs can be hugely important in enabling parents to manage their responsibilities. It is also important that schools have the ability to make choices about the services they offer. We have introduced legislation to make it easier and reduce the bureaucracy for schools deciding that that is indeed what they want to do. That should help to ensure there is greater provision of these important services.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
I have been to Diandjims nursery at Prudhoe in Northumberland and seen the transformational effect of the free child care provision of 15 hours per week for two-year-olds. The lives of parents are transformed, because they can go back to work or get back into employment following the birth of their child.
Jo Swinson
My hon. Friend raises an important example of the policy in action and working to deliver for hard-working families in his constituency. There are many such examples up and down the country. The policy is incredibly important for making sure that people do not have to choose not to work for economic reasons, which is why we are committed to taking it further.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
Ministers trumpet tax-free child care, but the fact is that it will not have helped even one family that is struggling with child care costs during this entire Parliament. In fact, those who are struggling the most have had their support via child care tax credits cut, so why do Ministers not implement the policy sooner? While they are at it, why do they not adopt Labour’s commitment to providing 25 hours a week of free nursery education for all working families?
Jo Swinson
The hon. Lady will be aware that support through working tax credit for child care will rise to 85% under universal credit. She is right that we are introducing tax-free child care, which is coming in next autumn. The legislation to make that happen is going through the House, and I am delighted that it is happening. I have outlined the additional early education hours that the Government have delivered, including, crucially, making it available for two-year-olds for the first time. We know that it has significant benefits, and it has helped many working parents.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
5. When she last met the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to discuss the effects of the purchasing policies of UK retailers on the rights of women and girls.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities (Jo Swinson)
I regularly meet the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to discuss a range of issues, including supply chain transparency and human rights. I assure my hon. Friend that, following significant work by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott), the British Retail Consortium is working with his Department to produce guidelines on this area for their members.
Michael Fabricant
I am grateful to the Minister for her answer. The recent episode of the Mauritian T-shirt illustrates so clearly how very important this issue has become. What steps is she taking to ensure that other companies follow the example of some well-known partnerships that show how well they can source their supplies?
Jo Swinson
My hon. Friend raises an important issue. Transparency is key so that investors and indeed customers are able to look at such matters and hold companies to account. We have introduced a requirement for a strategic report, which means that human rights need to be reported on, and further non-financial reporting will be helpful. Of course, the measures in the Modern Slavery Bill will make the UK a world leader in this area.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
I am very grateful for the measures in the Modern Slavery Bill. Will the Minister meet companies to make sure that they understand their responsibilities, because the Bill could end this exploitation of workers in UK supply chains?
Jo Swinson
First, I pay tribute to the hon. Lady, who has done so much work on this particular issue. I am glad that she welcomes the measures brought forward in the Modern Slavery Bill. We are engaging with business on these issues. Indeed, next week I am going to a United Nations event, where there will be many very senior representatives from different businesses who are looking at these exact issues. As I have said, we are also working specifically with retailers on the British Retail Consortium guidance.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
6. What assessment she has made of the effects of Government policies on domestic violence support services.
The Minister for Women and Equalities (Nicky Morgan)
The Government have ring-fenced funding of nearly £40 million until 2015 for specialist domestic and sexual violence services. The Home Office is working closely with the women’s sector on a programme of engagement with local commissioners. Earlier this week, the Government announced an additional £10 million of funding for refuges for victims of domestic abuse.
Luciana Berger
Despite what the Minister has said, women’s refuge charities report that services are still closing right across the country, with some areas having no refuge provision left at all. We need a comprehensive audit of domestic violence service provision to be carried out urgently. Why have the Government failed to do that and when will they do it?
Nicky Morgan
The Government have been putting the funding in. I have mentioned the £10 million that was announced this week. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government has written to all local authorities this week to say that, even though the funding environment is extremely difficult, they must continue to prioritise the provision of refuges for victims of domestic abuse and domestic violence. Rather than talking about audits in Whitehall, we want to get on with giving money to the services on the ground to fund the valuable work that they are doing.
East Coast Main Line
(10 years ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
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Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Transport to make a statement on the Government’s decision to award the franchise for the east coast main line.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
This morning, I announced the intention to award the InterCity east coast franchise to Stagecoach-Virgin, exactly on the schedule that we promised two years ago. That is great for passengers. It will bring more trains, faster trains, newer trains, better services and better value for money. It is good for towns and cities up and down the east coast. It is good for our economy and for jobs. It is proof that the right route forward for our railways is the private sector and the public sector working together. This deal will make the route of the Flying Scotsman a world-beater once again.
We have heard different advice from the Opposition—led, of course, by the unions. They told us to leave the route in the hands of the emergency public sector operator. They do not understand how that would deny the east coast line new ideas and investment. They do not understand that the operator was set up as a short-term measure by the last Labour Secretary of State for Transport. That is why the noble Lord Adonis said at the time:
“I do not believe that it would be in the public interest for us to have a nationalised train operating company indefinitely”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 1 July 2009; Vol. 712, c. 232.]
Indeed, the then Minister of State at the Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), said that
“one reason we are able to invest record sums in our railway service is the revenues that the franchises bring in and the premiums that they pay”.—[Official Report, 1 July 2009; Vol. 495, c. 430.]
They were right then and they are wrong today.
It is this Government who are powering ahead with better plans for our railways. The new franchise will be good for people who use the line. The deal will strengthen the vital links from London to Scotland, all the way along the route as far as Aberdeen and Inverness. Passengers will benefit from regular, faster, more frequent services to places such as Falkirk, Stirling and Edinburgh. Journeys between London and Edinburgh will regularly be down to just 4 hours by May 2020. Leeds will see regular journey times go down to just 2 hours.
Places such as Leeds, Bradford, Shipley and Harrogate will see more direct services each day. Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Huddersfield and Dewsbury will get new east coast services. There will be the first direct service from Huddersfield to London since the 1960s. Lincoln, which gets just one train a day to London under the current operator, will get one every two hours with the new one. We have protected the service levels to every current main line station as well. By May 2020, all those destinations will be served by the new intercity express trains, which will be built in the heart of the north-east at the new plant in Newton Aycliffe.
I ask the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher): why does he want to deny the north all those benefits? The new operator will provide 50% more capacity across the east coast network, a 40% increase in peak seats to and from King’s Cross, and a refurbishment of the existing fleet. It will cut some of the most expensive fares by 10% from May next year.
The franchise is not just good for the passengers; it is good for the staff. There will be investment in skills, with a graduate programme and new apprenticeships. There will be a national academy for rail professional education based in London, York and Derby. The franchise is good for taxpayers, too. It will run for eight years, with the option to extend it for a further year. In that time, it will return £3.3 billion in premium payments to the taxpayer. These figures are robust and have been subject to rigorous scrutiny, including by independent auditors. The deal will bring more services, more passengers and a growing return.
The Government’s franchising programme is creating the railways that this country needs. Passengers in Essex, London and the south-east already benefit from the improved services that a partnership between the public and private sectors can provide for our railways. This award is further proof that private competition is good for passengers, staff, communities and taxpayers. The quality of the new operator’s plans will benefit the whole country.
Michael Dugher
If this is such a good deal, why did the Secretary of State not offer to come to the House and make a statement, to share all the good news with us? Are the Government desperate to avoid scrutiny of their shambolic approach to franchising, which has cost the taxpayer millions of pounds?
First we had the west coast fiasco, which wasted £50 million, and then Ministers presided over the loss of hundreds of millions more, with delays to investments and franchise extensions. Now, on the east coast main line, we see Conservative dogma on privatisation put before the interests of the travelling public.
It is absurd in the extreme that our own public operator should be the only rail company in the world that has been barred from challenging to run its own services. It is not too late to halt the process, but given that the Secretary of State is adamant that it will go ahead, that we are only months away from an election and that there is no political consensus for this major decision, will he give a formal written ministerial direction to his permanent secretary to outline that he is still insisting on proceeding with this flawed process?
The Government say that £3.3 billion will be paid to the Exchequer over eight years, but the operator says it will be £2.3 billion. Why the discrepancy? Is the Secretary of State’s announcement already unravelling? Given that Virgin charges some of the highest peak fares in the country on the west coast, will passengers on the east coast main line face more fare rises to pay for this decision? Is it time that the Government legislated to allow a British not-for-profit public sector operator to take on and challenge train operators on a level playing field?
It is clear that the whole franchise process should never have happened. It was rushed through on a rigged political timetable, and by the time this service is privatised it will have paid more than £1 billion to the Exchequer. The entire process is a disgrace. The taxpayer and the travelling public have been sold down the river.
Mr Speaker
Order. I point out that this urgent question got off to an over-long start because in seeking to be informative, the Secretary of State went way beyond the allotted time for a ministerial response. I want to accommodate colleagues but we have a short period, so pithiness is of the essence.
Mr McLoughlin
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the hon. Member for Barnsley East to his position. He is no stranger to the Department for Transport because he was special adviser to Stephen Byers when he was Transport Secretary—a time of glorious indecision for our railways. This is the third shadow Secretary of State I have witnessed during my short time at the Department. No doubt if I wait a bit longer, another one will be along shortly.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned dogma, but I think the dogma comes from the party that did not implement any of these measures when it was in a position to do so. When Labour had 13 years to set up a public sector operator, it rejected that. Directly operated railways were always there as a matter of last resort. On the subject of dogma, the hon. Gentleman is speaking for ASLEF and the Transport Salaried Staffs Association, repeating what they are saying almost word for word. They have given more than £350,000 and £220,000 respectively to the Labour party, so I will not accept comments about dogma from Labour Members.
I am also interested in what the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) said on franchising:
“One of the purposes of franchising is to ensure that we get better value in respect of the subsidy paid in the particular case, but we also want better services.”—[Official Report, 1 February 2005; Vol. 430, c. 703-4.]
That is exactly what I have announced this morning for the east coast main line: better services to towns and cities that have not been served since the 1960s. The party that represents dogma sits on the Opposition Benches; the party challenging Britain’s railways and companies to come forward with new and better services, serving more communities than ever, sits on the Government Benches. We have seen the railways grow, from providing services for 760 million passengers to providing them for 1.6 billion passengers last year. This is a time of great renaissance for the railways—something that I celebrate, but the Opposition complain about.
Mr Speaker
Order. Extreme brevity is now required. Let us be led by Mr Philip Davies.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. As the Secretary of State knows, I have long lobbied for additional railway services on the east coast line to Shipley and Bradford, so I very much welcome his statement today. Will he confirm exactly how many additional services there will be to Shipley and Bradford, when they will come on track and what can be done to try to speed up the process?
Mr McLoughlin
I am very happy to write to my hon. Friend with the exact details of how many extra services there will be. There will be a great increase, with six services overall to Shipley—in 2018-19, I think—as a result of the new intercity express programme trains that will serve the line. I am happy to provide my hon. Friend with more information in due course.
Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)
Why do the Government think it is better for our country to pass the profitable east coast main line into private hands, with money going to shareholders rather than the people of this country, and throw out TUPE regulations, which will jeopardise the terms and conditions of the work force on the east coast main line?
Mr McLoughlin
I am not quite sure why the new old Labour party, led by the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), is so concerned about profits. Profits are not a bad thing. They go towards paying pensions and towards rewarding people who invest in companies. A number of people the hon. Lady represents rely on pensions that are generated by profits. That, I would have thought, is a good thing. It is not just about profits. The overall return to the rail franchises is 3%. Investment by the rail companies has resulted in tremendously better services for passengers up and down the country.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Does the Secretary of State recognise that what matters to my constituents is not who owns the operator but whether the trains are on time, clean, reasonably priced, retain good staff and stop at places such as Berwick and Alnmouth?
Mr McLoughlin
Indeed. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that the new trains, which will be built in the north-east shortly, will be of tremendous benefit on this particular line and will provide the investment the line has wanted for many a year.
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
I hope the Secretary of State will forgive me if I do not share his enthusiasm for today’s announcement. Some of us have been here before, with private sector companies promising the earth to win contracts and then not delivering in practice. Why did the Government not listen to local people and keep the excellent East Coast in place as a public sector comparator? What will he do to ensure the promises that have been made will be delivered?
Mr McLoughlin
The people who are serving on East Coast trains now will be the people serving on the new InterCity franchise that I have announced today. I will quote another Labour Member of Parliament; that seems to be a bit of a habit this morning. The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) said:
“will he be fair to the marvellous train crews of Virgin Trains, who give extraordinarily good service, and tell them that their future is assured? Will he simply award the franchise to Virgin, which has carried it out brilliantly?”—[Official Report, 15 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 53.]
In fairness, he was referring to the west coast main line, but if I go back to that statement I could quote those people time and again.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
For years in north Lincolnshire, we have been arguing to get back our through-train from London to Grimsby via Market Rasen. At the moment, the train stops at Lincoln. What hope is there of getting back our train?
Mr McLoughlin
If my hon. Friend presses me further, I will certainly come back to him in more detail. It is tremendous news that we have increased the number of trains to Lincoln to six a day, but I know that colleagues want services to go elsewhere, which is why the study being done with northern authorities on the northern powerhouse strategy is looking at how to improve connectivity for our market towns and cities in the north.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State agree that both times the private sector has run the east coast line it has been a failure, whereas the public sector, which has been running it for some considerable time, has handed over more than £1 billion to the Treasury? Why change a winning formula? Why does he not agree with the 70% of the population—I am one of them—who believe that rail should be brought back into public ownership?
Mr McLoughlin
I wish I could say I am surprised by the hon. Gentleman’s announcement that he is one of those who would like to see the railways re-nationalised. When we had a nationalised railway system, it was dying on its legs. It was providing only 760 million journeys a year, whereas today’s railway provides 1.6 billion and employs more people—more people working on our railways, more people using our railways. I thought he would welcome the fact that instead of a dying, declining industry, today it is a vibrant industry employing more people and improving opportunities for everyone, whatever their background. I celebrate that; he is disappointed by it.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
There is no doubt that the east coast rail service has been good over the past five years, but it has lacked new investment, so I welcome today’s announcement. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the thing we hope for and desire—direct rail services to Grimsby, in my case via Scunthorpe—remains a possibility and that he will work with us to see how viable it is?
Mr McLoughlin
I shall certainly work with my hon. Friend to see whether we can accommodate what he wants. As I have often pointed out, 25 years ago I was a junior Minister in the Department for Transport, and in those days it was thought that the railways were yesterday’s business. Today, wherever I go, I am lobbied by MPs for more direct services from their constituencies. I celebrate that we are today announcing 75 new destinations for this service.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Secretary of State not realise that most people in Yorkshire think that privatisation has been a disaster for train services across our region? It has been rotten, and it will still be rotten under this new arrangement. We do not believe in pie in the sky. I am not the most radical Member on the Labour Benches, but I have been persuaded that we need to take the rail system back into public ownership. That is what we deserve.
Mr McLoughlin
I think the person who has just spoken is the hon. Member for Huddersfield, yet we heard not a single welcome for the new train service to Huddersfield. He would rather talk about dogma than celebrate the first direct link to his area since 1960. That sums up the Labour party 100%: it is the Labour party of Kinnock, rather than Blair or Brown.
James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con)
More trains; more investment; more money back for taxpayers; a link for Thornaby, in my constituency; a link for Middlesbrough; trains built down the road in Aycliffe—does my right hon. Friend agree that this is good news not just for passengers and taxpayers, but for the economy of Teesside?
Mr McLoughlin
Indeed it is. The decision by Hitachi to base its plant in the north-east, bringing more than 700 new jobs to the area, has been universally welcomed.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
Why is the only public operator effectively barred from competing and operating the line, despite having reinvested £800 million into services rather than into the pockets of shareholders?
Mr McLoughlin
For the sake of brevity, I will refer the hon. Gentleman to my earlier answers.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
I welcome the statement. It is great news that Yorkshire will get so many services from this deal. Could the Secretary of State say a little more about services to Harrogate and Thirsk, which serve my constituency, and more about Skipton? I know that my right hon. Friend was thrown off the station at Settle, but I hope he will fight for a Skipton daily service.
Mr McLoughlin
What I am announcing today is extra services right across the line. I hope that the services to my hon. Friend’s constituency will see the benefits of that, as well as of the new intercity express trains, which will be coming on course in just a few years’ time.
Mr Speaker
I cannot imagine the Secretary of State being “thrown”. It would be a deeply onerous task, accomplished not without emotion.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State has made much of the potential benefits for employees, but is it not the case that he has ensured that TUPE will not apply, thus jeopardising the terms and conditions of the work force?
Mr McLoughlin
I think the hon. Lady is on to a technical point, but it will be a transfer over. It is a transfer over of the staff, who will be there on the same terms and conditions as they are at the moment—apart from those employed by Agility Trains.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
When will the better services to which my right hon. Friend refers include the electrification of the east coast main line between Edinburgh and Aberdeen? I ask that not least because it serves four stations in my constituency.
Mr McLoughlin
That may be a matter for the Scottish Parliament. If my right hon. and learned Friend does not mind, I would prefer to write to him about that.
Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab)
As a regular user of this service, I agree with the Secretary of State that East Coast making a profit is not a bad thing. The difference is that we want that £1 billion profit going back to the people of this country—not lining the pockets of his Tory friends.
Mr McLoughlin
The fact is, as I said, that directly operated railways have basically paid £1 billion to the Exchequer over the past five years. The new intercity express will pay £3.3 billion over eight years.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s announcement, particularly in respect of the six additional trains per day running between London and Harrogate. I think this is a transformation of our services in Harrogate and Knaresborough. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that this deal represents a huge boost—not just to our part of the economy, but to that of the whole of the north of England?
Mr McLoughlin
I do indeed. My hon. Friend can look forward to those extra services for his constituency, along with the others to which I have referred. We are talking, basically, about an increase of some 33% of services across the board, with 75 new destinations being served as a result of this morning’s announcement.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
Unlike the currently successful and profitable publicly owned service on the east coast main line, the previous two private operators failed—a point raised by my hon. Friends. What guarantee can the Secretary of State give that this latest franchise will not be third time unlucky?
Mr McLoughlin
Let me simply point out that a number of things have changed. The hon. Gentleman refers to franchises that were left by the last Government. Issues have been changed by this Government, and all the other franchises on the railways are currently running to the budgets that we have required of them. Some of them are subsidy receiving, but most are premium payments.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Thirsk and Malton will welcome a public-private partnership delivered by tried and tested operators. Will the Secretary of State confirm that there will be increased services from York that will take a shorter time, and will he let us know the balance between first class premium fares and standard class fares?
Mr McLoughlin
I might have to write to my hon. Friend on the details of the balance between premium and standard fares, but we have seen a tremendous improvement with the technology surrounding advanced booking, giving people some very good deals when they book their tickets in advance.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
Whoever runs the franchise, trains will be made at Newton Aycliffe. Will the Secretary of State please explain why he was quite content for a French nationalised industry to bid, but not for a British one to do the same?
Mr McLoughlin
I have no objection to foreign companies wanting to invest in this country. I would have thought that the hon. Lady welcomed the fact that Hitachi is building new plants in Newton Aycliffe. She is not decrying Hitachi because it is a foreign company, is she? I have no objection to foreign countries wanting to invest in the United Kingdom. I welcome it.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
We shall have 3,000 extra seats during the morning peak time, 65 new state-of-the-art trains, a 10% reduction in long-distance Anytime fares and the first direct service from Huddersfield to London since 1960. Will my right hon. Friend continue to put passengers at the forefront of these new services?
Mr McLoughlin
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said, but I should point out to him that this is not just about passengers. It is also about staff—the staff who deliver a fantastic service on the east coast main line, and who will now be given better training. I think that the national academy—which, as I said earlier, will be based in London, York and Derby—is very good news for the people who work on our railways, as well as the passengers who travel on them.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
Virgin fares on the west coast main line are excruciating. Will the Secretary of State tell us what he can do to protect passengers on the east coast line?
Mr McLoughlin
As I have said, some of the top fares will be reduced by 10% in May. Moreover, if passengers buy tickets in advance, they can obtain some very good deals.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State confirm that he has announced extra investment in our railways, extra services, extra trains, extra seats, and British-built trains for British passengers? Does he share my dismay at the economic illiteracy of Opposition Members, given that this is a good deal for passengers, a good deal for everyone who wants our economy to improve and a good deal for taxpayers, who will receive £3.5 billion back from these companies?
Mr McLoughlin
I do not think that I need to answer my hon. Friend’s questions, apart from the one about whether I was surprised by the attitude of the Opposition. The answer to that question is no.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
The Secretary of State’s idea of a public-private partnership seems to be “Private failure and public bail-out; private profit and public subsidy.” When I catch the train to Newcastle in two hours’ time I will ask the staff what they think, but in the meantime, can the Secretary of State confirm that there will be no reduction in direct services from Newcastle to London, no increase in prices—and no action from the Government when they fail to deliver on their long list of promises?
Mr McLoughlin
What I have announced amounts to extra points. But I see that we have now been joined by the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling). I can do no better than quote what he said when he was Transport Secretary:
“franchising is to ensure that we get better value in respect of the subsidy paid in the particular case”. —[Official Report, 1 February 2005; Vol. 430, c. 703-4.]
We also get better services. There will be increased services and faster services from Newcastle, and I think that the people of Newcastle will get a better deal.
Smith Commission
(10 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall make a statement to the House about the further devolution process in Scotland and the publication of the heads of agreement resulting from Lord Smith’s five-party talks. As the Prime Minister has already said this morning, we back the agreement and its recommendations, and will produce draft legislation in January.
The referendum on independence that was held on 18 September 2014 saw Scotland vote decisively to remain within our UK family of nations of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, backed by the strength, security and stability of the United Kingdom. The turnout across Scotland was nearly 85%, and more than 2 million people made a positive choice for Scotland to remain part of the UK.
During the referendum campaign, the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition made a joint commitment to deliver more powers to the Scottish Parliament. The Smith commission, chaired by Lord Smith of Kelvin, was up and running on 19 September, and Lord Smith convened cross-party talks to reach agreement on the proposals for further devolution to Scotland. The process has been thorough and extensive. The party representatives were drawn from the five main political parties in Scotland; this was the first time ever that all five had participated in a devolution process.
I would echo the comments of Lord Smith in the foreword to his report:
“This agreement is, in itself, an unprecedented achievement. It demanded compromise from all of the parties. In some cases that meant moving to devolve greater powers than they had previously committed to, while for other parties it meant accepting the outcome would fall short of their ultimate ambitions. It shows that, however difficult, our political leaders can come together, work together, and reach agreement with one another.”
In preparing the report, Lord Smith heard from a wide range of Scottish civic institutions and members of the public. Over 400 submissions were received from organisations and groups, and over 18,000 submissions, including e-mails, letters and signatures to petitions, from people across Scotland.
The Smith commission has today produced comprehensive heads of agreement ahead of the St Andrew’s day deadline contained in the timetable. This is a significant achievement and historic moment for Scotland. I thank Lord Smith and the party representatives for their work. They have worked hard against a challenging timetable, covering an enormous area of ground. This work will deliver a substantial package of new powers to the Scottish Parliament.
The heads of agreement provide for a durable but responsive constitutional settlement for Scotland within the United Kingdom. They give greater financial responsibility to the Scottish Parliament, with an updated fiscal framework for Scotland, consistent with the UK fiscal framework. For the first time, over 50% of the money spent by the Scottish Government will be raised by the Scottish Government. That is an important step which builds on the measures brought forward by this Government in the Scotland Act 2012, and further increases the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament to the Scottish people.
The recommendations provide for key welfare measures to be designed by and delivered in Scotland. That will give the Scottish Parliament the tools—and the responsibility—to tackle a range of issues with specific consideration of local circumstances, including those related to social care, long-term unemployment and housing, while continuing to benefit from the strength and stability of the UK-wide system.
The recommendations build on the already significant powers of the Scottish Parliament in social justice and a range of other policy areas. Together, those recommendations give greater responsibility for more decisions affecting Scotland to be made in the Scottish Parliament and paid for by revenue raised by the Scottish Parliament. However, further devolution is just one part of this story. People in Scotland were unequivocally clear on 18 September that Scotland should retain the security of being part of our United Kingdom. The Smith commission’s remit was clear—to set out proposals for further devolution within the United Kingdom—and that remit was signed up to by all parties participating in the process, including the Scottish Government. The conclusions reached by the parties ensure a set of proposals that do not cause detriment to the UK as a whole or any of its constituent parts. The Government are committed to ensuring that Scotland and the whole of the United Kingdom continue to prosper from our single domestic market, our social union and the strength that comes from the pooling and sharing of risks.
People in Scotland voted on 18 September for the jobs and opportunities that are created by being part of a larger United Kingdom with one currency, no borders and more money to spend on public services. People in Scotland want to keep the advantages of the UK pound, UK pensions, UK armed forces and a strong UK voice in the world. The package that has been announced today allows that to happen.
As the Prime Minister has already made clear, the Government back the heads of agreement and their recommendations and we shall get on with producing draft legislation. The draft clauses will be produced by Burns night, 25 January, meeting the next phase in our commitment to the people in Scotland. That work begins today. A team has been brought together with leading officials in the Scotland Office, HM Treasury, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Cabinet Office. That team will work closely with all lead policy Departments within the UK Government. The team will remain in place to deliver a Bill in the UK Parliament following the next general election.
To support the preparation of the draft legislation, I have invited key Scottish stakeholders representing a wide range of sectors to form a stakeholder group. I shall provide further details of the membership and terms of reference of the group in due course, but it is my intention that it will support the Government’s work translating the heads of agreement into the draft legislation that we shall publish by 25 January. As Lord Smith said in his foreword:
“Through this process I have worked closely with people who can argue passionately with one another while sharing an equal concern and love for their country. I would like to thank them all for their input, challenge and support. I hope that, in the end, they can work together, maintain their energy and use it to create a Scotland which is even stronger and even better.”
Having a more powerful Scottish Parliament inside a strong United Kingdom is the best outcome for the people of Scotland and the people of the United Kingdom. This is what we voted for on 18 September. Today’s report is an affirmation of the vow that was made in September. It is a historic moment for Scotland.
The cause of home rule has been at the heart of Scottish politics since the days of Gladstone. This agreement provides a modern blueprint: Scottish home rule within our strong United Kingdom—home rule for Scotland that can open the door to constitutional reform for the rest of the United Kingdom. We can achieve home rule all round.
Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement, and join him in thanking Lord Smith of Kelvin for his work and his report, and indeed all the commissioners. I want to pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), whose proposals during the referendum set us on the way to delivering this momentous agreement to deliver a powerhouse Parliament.
As the Secretary of State has said, this is a historic day for Scotland. Ten weeks ago the people of Scotland—in overwhelming numbers—confirmed Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom. It was a decision made on the highest turnout ever seen in these isles, and it was a vote for change: change in the way Scotland is governed, change that will see more decisions taken closer to people, but safer, faster, better change as part of the United Kingdom. This is a promise kept and an agreement delivered.
The Labour party was very clear that we would honour the promises made during the referendum, and we have delivered. As the Secretary of State has said, this has been achieved in a co-operative and constructive process, working in the spirit of consensus that people across Scotland expect. That is why we wholly endorse the recommendations of the Smith commission and we give our guarantee to the people of Scotland that if—or, rather, when—we are in government after May, we will legislate for these powers in our first Queen’s Speech.
This agreement will see more powers over tax, welfare and jobs transferred to the Scottish Parliament. We have secured guarantees over the voting rights of Scottish MPs on the Budget and on the continuation of the Barnett formula. We believe this provides the best deal for the people of Scotland. In fact, today’s deal is more radical and goes further than many had anticipated. We on this side of the House believe that the principle we have worked for today—pushing power closer to people—is one that should be followed across Britain. That is why we will continue to call for a constitutional convention to be established to consider how this can be achieved, working with all the nations and regions of the United Kingdom.
Now that agreement has been reached, will the Secretary of State tell the House how the recommendations of the Smith commission will be implemented and what the timetable will be, and will he specifically and in detail outline how hon. Members will be involved in this next stage of the process, as the draft clauses are produced? Given the success of cross-party working that is inherent in the work of the Smith commission, will the Secretary of State outline how the parties will be involved in this stage, and how the Opposition will be consulted on the details he announced in his statement?
As Lord Smith pointed out in his statement this morning, these additional powers will also mean that the Scottish Parliament’s own processes will need to be strengthened to enable it to hold the Government to account. Will the Secretary of State tell the House what consultation there will now be with the Scottish Parliament to ensure that it is well prepared for this transfer of powers?
Lord Smith also recommended closer working between the Scottish Parliament and Government and the UK Parliament and Government. How does the Secretary of State intend to take forward that recommendation and ensure that Members of this House become involved?
For the past two years, our country has been divided along yes and no lines. Today marks an important moment. There are no longer yeses and noes, just Scots with new powers, and we look forward to working across Scotland to deliver them. Labour will deliver those new powers in our first Queen’s Speech in May. More power is now in Scotland’s hands, and it is for all of us to work together to create that better Scotland.
Mr Carmichael
I acknowledge that this process has not been easy for any of the parties; it has involved compromise on all sides. I pay tribute to the hon. Lady and her colleagues in the Scottish Labour party for the compromises and progress that they have made. They have acted in accordance with the spirit that was expected by the people of Scotland following the referendum vote.
The hon. Lady mentioned the proposals for the rest of the United Kingdom. As I have said at the Dispatch Box on a number of occasions in recent weeks, that debate is now happening and I welcome it. I share her enthusiasm for a constitutional convention. She will be aware that the Government have set up a Cabinet Committee to look into the wider issues of devolution in other parts of the United Kingdom, and I deeply regret that her party has chosen not to take part in that. I hope that, even at this late stage, Labour Members will change their minds. She and her right hon. and hon. Friends can anticipate receiving an invitation soon to contribute to the Command Paper that the Government will be bringing forward, so if they have proposals, we will be interested to hear them.
The hon. Lady asked about the implementation of the heads of agreement. As I explained in my statement, a stakeholder group will be set up, and I anticipate there being opportunities for all parties—and, indeed, for groups beyond the political parties—to have a role in that. I will update the House on that as soon as possible.
One of the most important and prescient observations that Lord Smith made in his personal recommendations was that there should be closer working not only between the two Governments—which has long been accepted to be the case—but between the two Parliaments. Indeed, it was suggested that you, Mr Speaker, might soon consider meeting the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament to build that co-operation between the two Parliaments and the two Governments. Those recommendations have a great deal to recommend them. The hon. Lady asked how the recommendations in the report would be implemented, and I can tell her that they will be implemented without hesitation, reservation or equivocation.
Mr Speaker
I meet the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament regularly—a fact of which I suspect colleagues might be aware—and I am very happy to meet her as necessary.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
May I say to the Secretary of State that this is no way to introduce massive constitutional change to our country, given the major implications for the rest of the United Kingdom, which has not been consulted at all, not least on the question of how English votes are to be applied to English laws? Does he believe that these proposals will contain or further inflame separatist sentiment in Scotland?
Mr Carmichael
In Scotland, on 18 September, we decided that we wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom. That was clear and unequivocal, and it is that position that we are now entrenching. To answer the hon. Gentleman’s last question, I believe that these proposals will strengthen the position of Scotland and the United Kingdom for the future. I am sensitive to his concerns about the need for constitutional change in other parts of the United Kingdom and I understand that there is an imbalance within our current constitutional framework. Let me tell him that that was the case before we set up the Scottish Parliament in the first place—it was one of the reasons we set up a Scottish Parliament. The process has been an evolutionary one across the UK and that evolutionary process must now continue. I hope that he and his colleagues, in England in particular, will now take to that debate with enthusiasm and build a consensus that can bring forward the change that is necessary.
Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)
I, too, welcome the proposals being made by the Smith commission today, transferring, as they do, not just more powers but significant new responsibilities that will be taken on by the Scottish Parliament. As we implement those and discuss, as we must, further devolution to other parts of the United Kingdom, will the Secretary of State ensure that we do nothing that undermines the integrity and the strength of the United Kingdom? In particular, will he ensure that we do not undermine the fiscal union, which is one of the central pillars of that United Kingdom? The majority of people in Scotland voted clearly to stay within the United Kingdom, and I believe the majority of people in the entire United Kingdom want to see it continue. We must be very careful to manage this carefully—other big countries have done it and we can do it, too.
Mr Carmichael
I do not disagree in any way, shape or form with what the right hon. Gentleman says. Indeed, the sentiment he refers to was reflected in the remit we gave Lord Smith and then in the principles that underpinned his work—the principles agreed by all five parties to the discussion. I believe that what they have brought forward today is entirely consistent with those principles.
Sir George Young (North West Hampshire) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is important for the integrity and credibility of the political process in this country that commitments given by political leaders during the referendum campaign are honoured? Does he further agree that the proposals he has just announced further accentuate the imbalance in the British constitution between England and the rest of the United Kingdom? Does he therefore agree that it would be wrong, as some have proposed, to kick the McKay proposals into the long grass? They now need to be addressed with some urgency.
Mr Carmichael
I could not agree more with the right hon. Gentleman on the importance of honouring the vow that was made, and that is what we are about today. As I have acknowledged, there is currently an imbalance within the UK constitutional framework. As a federalist, I have long believed that that needs addressing. I do not think anything should be kicked into the long grass. He has been involved in the management of this House in various capacities for many years now, so he will be as aware as I am that once these things are changed it is difficult to change them back if we get them wrong. There is a need for constitutional reform and it goes far beyond the Standing Orders of this House.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
I thank the Scottish Secretary for his statement, and Lord Smith and the commissioners for their work. The substantive parts of this are the devolution of less than 30% of Scotland’s tax base and of less than 20% of welfare, and the assignation of a share of VAT. Although that is interesting as far as it goes, I note the absence of other substantive job-creating powers. The Scottish National party will not stand in the way of these powers; it is important to put that on the record, and I do welcome the report as modest progress. However, will the Scottish Secretary confirm that however they are dressed up, these proposals do not reflect the powerhouse Parliament that many in Scotland believed they had been promised before the referendum?
Mr Carmichael
First, let me try to adopt a more appropriate tone than the hon. Gentleman has perhaps just done and congratulate him on his recent election to the position of deputy leader of his party. It is unfortunate that he did not use the word “welcome”; there are significant job-creating powers in this package and the Scottish Parliament already holds significant job-creating powers. If Nicola Sturgeon is sincere when she says that she wants to govern for the whole of Scotland, she should get on and use the powers that she has, welcome the ones that she is getting and use them for the benefit of the people of Scotland.
The hon. Gentleman predictably and depressingly seeks to suggest that this is not a fulfilment of the vow. Well, the vow is on the front page of the Daily Record. For the benefit of the House, I have brought that paper with me today. The front page says, “The vow delivers.” Let me draw the House’s attention to the article itself. On page 3, it says that
“it’s is now clear that they”—
David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband—
“have stood behind this agreement to deliver change. Lurid claims to the contrary by some pro-Yes commentators”—
it must have known what the hon. Gentleman was going to say—
“have been shown to be false.”
That is the assessment of one of Scotland’s leading papers. It is more to be relied on than the views of the hon. Gentleman.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
My right hon. Friend can now be assured of some favourable remarks in relation to what he has just said about the Daily Record. He will not be surprised that I, rather less grudgingly, welcome both the process behind the proposals and the proposals themselves. Does he understand that I welcome the accusation that these proposals are federal in nature, because it is in federalism that we will find the best constitutional solution to meet the aspirations of all four of our nations and, at the same time, secure the advantages of a secure United Kingdom? Is not the truth now that we should all be federalists?
Mr Carmichael
Speaking for myself, I always have been a federalist. Indeed, I understand that I can now count on the support of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) in that aspiration. May I also recognise the pivotal role that my right hon. and learned Friend took in the formulation of my own party’s proposals? His commission was the first intervention in this debate, and it very much established the tone and set the bar at a level that others felt it necessary to clear. Ultimately, a federal structure is what this country needs. It works perfectly well—in fact it works much better—in countries around the world. Clearly, it will take time. What we are about here today is delivering in the here and now on the pledge that we made in the referendum.
Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)
I seek clarification from the Secretary of State as to whether the support of the Smith commission was unanimous. If that is the case, great credit is due to the Greens and to the SNP in particular for being willing to sit down and collaborate with the Liberals, the Conservatives and Labour to find something around which we can all agree. I hope the right hon. Gentleman agrees that if we have had unanimity in producing the report of Smith, we now must have unanimity in implementing it.
Mr Carmichael
That unanimity is important. I understand that that was the basis on which the agreement was made. Unfortunately, given the tone of some of what we have heard today, John Swinney, who by all accounts performed a significant role in the commission, has not been able to bring everyone in his party with him. That is to be regretted.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that once Scotland is determining her own income tax rates and bands in the Scottish Parliament, it would be quite wrong for Scottish Members of this Parliament to be trying to fix those bands and rates for the English?
Mr Carmichael
I commend to my right hon. Friend the terms of the Smith report, which make it clear that income tax means a tax shared between the two Parliaments.
Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)
I welcome the report. This is a great day for democracy and what is good enough for Scotland is now good enough for England. The Secretary of State will have seen in The Times today a letter from local government leaders from the greatest to the smallest asking for devolution in England. Rather than having to drag it out of Whitehall over 20 years, as Scotland did, through lobbying and referenda-ising, we should get to this quickly. If we do not, through our sloth the Secretary of State might create in England the same nationalism as was evident in Scotland, which I think he would regret. Will he not keep putting this off and talking about constitutional conventions that might never report? We know what we need to do: put it in the manifestos, unite the House and give England local devolution, as Scotland is now getting.
Mr Carmichael
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman, as I suspect that that is the first time that Hansard will have been required to record the word referenda-ising. It is novel and creative. I am not entirely sure whether the growth of nationalism in the different parts of England will be a consequence, but having sat through a six-hour debate just a few weeks ago in this House on the subject of devolution across the whole United Kingdom, I would say the one thing that was clear at the end of the debate was that there is not yet consensus—[Interruption.] It might well need leadership, but leadership alone will not be enough to build consensus. The hon. Gentleman would do well to listen to the words of his own Front Benchers on the question of a constitutional convention. That is not a delaying tactic, as he seems to think. In my view, it is the only feasible way of building consensus to get the change that is wanted.
Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)
The report is a welcome first step towards stabilising the Union, redressing a Scottish grievance, and the Treasury Committee will consider it as part of its inquiry into fiscal devolution. Does the Secretary of State agree that another crucial step must be to redress an English grievance: that Scottish MPs vote on English laws? That must end, notwithstanding the curious wording of paragraph 75 of the agreement. Does he further agree that the English must have a veto on all laws that largely or exclusively affect them, and that the case for that is all the stronger with full devolution of income tax? Nothing less will do.
Mr Carmichael
It is because we understand the need for change—as I have said already, I and the whole Government are sensitive to that wish for change—that we have set up the process that is being led by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, which is aimed at building consensus to bring about that change.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
I welcome the comprehensive cross-party consensus to work together for the benefit of the whole of Scotland that the Smith commission has achieved. The Secretary of State will be aware, as I mentioned this to him in Scottish questions yesterday, that there is a growing tax gap, given that there is a higher proportion of basic rate taxpayers and we still do not know how those on the highest incomes, such as Brian Souter, might divert their tax bases so that they do not become liable for Scottish tax rates. Before we produce a White Paper next year, may we have a full analysis from the Treasury of the tax base, so we can make sure that any final block settlement accurately reflects the tax raised in Scotland and ensures that we do not end up with Scotland having a worse deal?
Mr Carmichael
Today’s publication and the agreement we have offer us a range of opportunities in Scotland. In particular, we can do the things for the Scottish economy that will produce the growth that will expand that tax base. The important point is that, having made this decision, we should get on and implement it and then start using the powers, rather than constantly talking about our constitutional position.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
How does today’s report fit in with the promise made by the Prime Minister on 19 September that any change giving more devolution in Scotland would go in tandem with, and at the same pace as, changes in the rest of the United Kingdom?
Mr Carmichael
No. I have to contradict my hon. Friend. It has been made perfectly clear all along, and the Prime Minister himself has said, that the change that was promised to Scotland will go ahead according to the timetable that was given to the people of Scotland. It is not contingent on other changes.
Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)
I welcome today’s statement and I think people across Scotland will welcome it. The referendum changed Scotland, and today’s statement is confirmation that we need to respect the wishes for change of the no voters and reach out to many of those who voted yes as well. In welcoming the tax powers, may I point out that the new welfare powers are just as crucial? Will the Secretary of State confirm that the new welfare powers total perhaps as much as £3 billion of new responsibility for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government, and that he is minded to enable the devolution of those powers at a pace and in a manner that will enable Scotland to challenge poverty and the generational disadvantage that blights far too many families?
Mr Carmichael
I can confirm the figure that the right hon. Gentleman has put to the House. What is being offered to the Scottish Parliament is the power to design a welfare system that is fit for purpose in Scotland. That will be one part of tackling the generational issues of poverty and social exclusion to which he refers. The increased powers in job creation and taxation, especially income tax, and the powers to grow the economy in Scotland, can be used to tackle the issues that the right hon. Gentleman is so right to highlight.
Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
During the referendum campaign, the four party leaders made commitments to the Scottish people. Today we see three party leaders delivering on the vow that they made. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best way forward for Scotland is for the SNP to acknowledge their leader’s statement that this would be a once-in-a-generation referendum?
Mr Carmichael
Indeed; I could not agree more. The Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition made a vow during the referendum campaign. Today we honour that vow. The former First Minister and his successor—Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon—also made a vow. They said that they would respect the outcome of the referendum and the decision of the people of Scotland. There is no reason from today for them to do anything other than to make it clear that we will not be returning to this question in a referendum, as they said, in a generation.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
I, too, welcome the announcement today. It has delivered more than the vow—perhaps we could call it the vow plus. There is certainly more in the statement than was expected.
I welcome the fact that quite a lot of welfare is to be devolved, but it is right that pensions, especially the state pension, should remain reserved, because throughout the campaign and in all the polling, Scottish people, even many yes voters, thought that pensions should remain part of the UK. When can we expect to see the detail of how some of this will work in practice? Not until the detail is available to all Members will we know whether it is practical or not that some of these powers should be devolved.
Mr Carmichael
I like the hon. Lady’s formulation, “the vow plus”. My party leader in Scotland, Willie Rennie, said this morning that this was “the vow max”. I agree with him on that. The hon. Lady is right to highlight that the state pension will remain part of the United Kingdom welfare system. That is one of the most significant parts of the social union that the people of Scotland chose to remain part of on 18 September.
As for the detail, as Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, the hon. Lady will doubtless have an important role to play in working it out.
Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con)
When a healthy majority of our fellow countrymen in Scotland voted to remain in our country, the United Kingdom, it seemed to me that they voted against the petty-minded, mean-spirited and spiteful nationalism that we see from the SNP, yet these proposals seem to be delivering deeper and greater separation between the component parts of the United Kingdom. When Tony Blair introduced his proposal for devolution, which I considered pretty half-baked, he said that it would end the rise of nationalism and cement the United Kingdom. Will my right hon. Friend explain what it is about today’s proposals that will cement the United Kingdom and not lead to yet greater demands for separation of the structure of our country?
Mr Carmichael
In the course of the referendum campaign all three parties made a vow. It is absolutely essential that we deliver on that vow in the way we are doing today. The UK constitution is a dynamic model—it always has been and it always will be. It is one of the advantages of having an unwritten constitution, as we do. So yes, as I said earlier today, I remain sensitive to the wish of people in England in particular to see a reformed constitution working better for them. It is up to them to decide exactly what that means. We have done it for ourselves in Scotland. They now need to follow suit.
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
I am pleased that, contrary to reports, it has been decided not to recommend devolving abortion, which would have caused all sorts of problems. This is a very exciting day for Scotland, a day we should celebrate. I was going to say that we should put the cynicism and division of the past few years behind us, until I heard the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie). Will the Scottish people be informed on an individual household basis of the eventual legislation that comes forward, as happened during the referendum? May I ask the Secretary of State to come to the birthplace of our national bard on 25 January to announce the draft legislation?
Mr Carmichael
That sounds an enticing prospect. Subject to diary commitments—my own diary gets fairly full around Burns night—I would be more than happy to accommodate the hon. Lady’s request if at all possible. She raised the matter of abortion, the terms of the report in relation to which she will have seen. There is a clear statement that it is considered by the commissioners to be an anomalous reservation, and I can understand why they take that view. However, we have always dealt with abortion differently—we have always made it the subject of a free vote in this House, for example—and the commission reached a sensible compromise by recognising the current anomaly, but saying that a new process will have to be devised to deal with that. I hope that process can involve parliamentarians and civic groups beyond the two Parliaments, which might in some way build a measure of consensus.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Unfortunately, there appear to be a number of lacunae, inconsistencies and unanswered questions in the report. If we rush this process, we are in danger of throwing petrol on the embers of English resentment and Scottish separatism. I pose one question out of many: paragraph 95(5)(a) states:
“The Scottish Government’s borrowing powers should be agreed by the Scottish and UK Governments”.
Does this mean that their borrowing will be underwritten by the UK Parliament?
Mr Carmichael
No. Obviously, if the Scottish Government were to borrow, they would have the liability under the borrowing powers. On the hon. Gentleman’s earlier observations about what he perceives as lacunae, the resulting measure, when introduced as legislation in the Queen’s Speech following the election, will still be subject to the full scrutiny of this House and the other place, whoever is standing at the Dispatch Box at the time. I am confident of the abilities of this House and the other place, and that what we will have at the end of the day will work.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
If the Secretary of State manages to visit the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne), he would be most welcome to cross the border into Kilmarnock and Loudon—of course, Robert Burns lived in the village of Mauchline and had his works published in Kilmarnock. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the powers that will now be given, in addition to welfare and taxation, include responsibility for the Work programme? That will give the Scottish Parliament a real opportunity to add to its existing powers in respect of economic development in order to get people back to work, which is what many of our constituents will be concerned about.
Mr Carmichael
I would be delighted to join the hon. Lady in her constituency as part of this grand Burns tour that I seem to have signed up to—I just hope that Opposition Members will not start complaining about the cost. She will see that the Work programme is to be devolved, which I think is sensible. Indeed, it was something John Swinney spoke about many times when I shared platforms with him during the referendum campaign. They have the powers; they just have to get on and use them.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Should not those of us who believe in lower taxes welcome this proposal’s potential to encourage a healthy competition between London and Edinburgh over which sets the lowest rate of income tax? If Edinburgh sets a significantly higher rate than this Parliament, there will be a movement of talent from Scotland down south. Likewise, if we set a higher rate than Edinburgh, people will start moving to Scotland. That competition should hopefully lead to lower rates of tax.
Mr Carmichael
That is indeed one of the possible consequences. The truth of the matter is that the Scottish Parliament will, for the first time since it was set up, control both sides of the books for the areas for which it has responsibility; how it spends money and how it raises it. It will then have to be accountable to the voters for how it taxes them. I think that in time, that will have a transformative effect on Scottish politics.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
In 2011 the people of Wales had a referendum on greater powers. The Secretary of State might wish to consider the arguments for giving the people of Scotland a referendum on these powers, if for no other reason than to flush out exactly where the SNP stands on the Smith commission.
Mr Carmichael
That is an interesting idea, but the real purpose of proceeding according to the timetable we have set out is that we will be able to put the proposals to the people next May, which will be the referendum that matters.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend, who is implementing a long-standing Liberal policy and succeeding where Gladstone did not. I am delighted to see that the Crown Estate is to be devolved and that the Smith commission recommends further devolution of its assets to the island authorities. Will he support devolution of the Crown Estate’s assets to other coastal and island communities, such as those in Argyll and Bute?
Mr Speaker
It is a matter of debate whether the Secretary of State is as great a man as Gladstone, but thankfully his statements to the House are notably shorter.
Mr Carmichael
I do not think there is much debate, Mr Speaker; I do not set myself up for that claim. On the Crown Estate, my hon. Friend is right: that is one of the report’s most significant proposals for our coastal and island communities. Indeed, it requires the Scottish Government, when they have devolved control of the Crown Estate, to pass it on to coastal and island communities. We all know what happens when power is devolved to Edinburgh: it tends to stick there. Scotland now has, as a result of seven years of SNP government, one of the most centralised Governments anywhere in Europe. The report mentions Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles, as my hon. Friend says, but it begins that recommendation by referring to
“local authority areas such as”.
I think that could well include his constituency.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
I too welcome the Smith commission’s proposals for Scotland. [Hon. Members: “Hooray!”] I will support any process that transfers powers from unelected Tories in Scotland to the Scottish people. Does the Secretary of State even start to recognise the palpable sense of disappointment that exists in Scotland this morning, whether among Scottish people who wanted maximum devolution and expected something close to home rule following the type of talk in the run-up in the referendum, whether among those in the voluntary sector who expected the full transferral of welfare powers, or whether among those in the trade union movement who wanted real job-creating powers and say that they are underwhelmed by the proposals? While we all welcome the proposals, does he at least start to recognise the disappointment at the fact that they could have gone much further?
Mr Carmichael
I fully accept that the hon. Gentleman wants independence and always has done. That is why we had a vote. It pains me to tell him that he lost, however, and it is about time that he and his party came to terms with that. For him to try to use this process to get independence by the back door does not respect the views of the Scottish people as expressed on 18 September. It is perhaps about time that he thought he has a duty to speak for the 60.19% of his own constituents who rejected independence on 18 September.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
In the fall-out from the recent Scottish referendum—in which only people in Scotland had a vote, but the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland were bound by the result—the Scottish nationalists now object even to the prospect of a UK-wide referendum on our membership of the European Union, claiming that Scotland would be bound by the British consensus. Does my right hon. Friend detect, as I do, more than a whiff of tartan hypocrisy in this stance?
Mr Carmichael
I suspect, Mr Speaker, that if I used the word “hypocrisy” you would call me back into order, and for that reason I do not use it.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Of course, as hon. Members have pointed out, this agreement affects all parts of the United Kingdom—Wales, England and Northern Ireland as well as Scotland. Will the Secretary of State explain the implications for the Barnett formula of the tax measures in the agreement? In particular, if the Scottish Parliament decided to reduce the level of income tax, what implications would that have for the Barnett formula?
Mr Carmichael
The Barnett formula remains in operation, but only for the portion of the budget going to the Scottish Parliament that is not accounted for by the taxes that are currently reserved here and are going to be devolved. Detailed technical work is currently under way on this between the Treasury and the Scottish Government. Announcements will be made on its practical application in relation to the 2012 powers in fairly short order.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
I particularly welcome Lord Smith’s comment in his foreword to the document,
“that neither the Scottish nor UK Governments will lose or gain financially from the act of transferring a power.”
Following on from the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), does that not underline the fact that if a Scottish Government wanted significantly to increase public spending in Scotland, Scottish taxpayers would foot the bill, and that is good for the accountability of Holyrood?
Mr Carmichael
I could not agree more. The Scottish Government keep telling us that they want to spend more money; well, now they can, and in order to do so they will have to raise taxes or cut money elsewhere. That is how politics works.
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
It sounds as though it is thanks to Labour that the Smith commission is proposing such an excellent deal for Scotland. Is the Secretary of State having discussions with his ministerial colleagues about devolving power to English regions via their local authorities?
Mr Carmichael
I caution the hon. Lady about seeking to claim too much credit on behalf of her party, or any other. As I said, this required us all to participate in good faith, and we all had to make compromises. No individual party should seek to claim too much credit; it was a joint effort. She knows that I am sympathetic to devolution to parts of England, but a concrete proposal has to be worked out. We did that over many years in Scotland, and I am afraid there is no quick or easy way for her and her communities now to do it for themselves.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
The Scottish referendum showed without doubt that a large number of people who voted for the SNP may not necessarily have wanted independence. May I urge my right hon. Friend to ensure that, when the SNP wipes out the Labour party next May, it is seen as a rejection of the Labour party rather than a reflection of the need for further devolution or separation?
Mr Carmichael
I think we should all be cautious of trying to predict the outcome of next May’s election.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
May I commend the work of all the commissioners on the Smith commission, particularly—not to single anyone out—my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont)? There is a perception that politicians do not keep their promises, but the truth is that the solemn promise we made to the Scottish people during the referendum campaign has today been not only delivered, but delivered with bells on. May I encourage the Secretary of State to look seriously at double devolution, to make sure that today’s announcements and the commission report create not just a powerhouse Scottish Parliament, but powerhouse local authorities and, more importantly, powerhouse local communities?
Mr Carmichael
Indeed. The hon. Gentleman will see some support for his latter proposition in the report’s foreword, under the heading, “Devolution from the Scottish Parliament”. Lord Smith articulates, in a very measured way, the galloping centralisation we have seen in recent years in the Scottish Government. I appreciate the way in which the hon. Gentleman did not single out the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East. In the same tone, I should not single out my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore), who, along with my constituency colleague, Tavish Scott, played a tremendous role in getting this deal.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
In the Scottish referendum, if people voted yes they were voting for full independence, but it now seems that if people voted no they were voting for more independence. Will the Secretary of State explain how those people who wanted the status quo should have voted in the September referendum? Will he personally accept that, as more power is given to the Scottish Parliament, it is unacceptable and unjustifiable for Members of Parliament from Scotland to continue to vote on issues that affect only England?
Mr Carmichael
As the Prime Minister himself said this morning, he always said that a vote for no was never going to be a vote for no change. Indeed, when the people of Scotland went to the polling stations, all parties had put out their detailed proposals on what would follow in the event of a no vote. As I have said on a number of occasions today, on the question of constitutional change in England, a process is now under way, led by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
May I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) on their hard work? I also congratulate the six SNP Members in particular—it must have been very difficult for them to compromise on an area on which they do not usually compromise in any shape or form. [Interruption.] Does the Secretary of State agree that now is the time for the Scottish people—the families and friends who were split and the people who did not talk to each other because of grievances caused by the referendum—to get back together and put Scotland first?
Mr Carmichael
I apologise for missing the early part of the hon. Gentleman’s question because of the constant sotto voce commentary from the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart).
Mr Carmichael
Did I say it was sotto voce? It seems to have ratcheted up a little. The hon. Gentleman had his chance when he was called by you, Mr Speaker.
The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) is absolutely right. This is a time to heal the divisions and bring the people of Scotland together. We had a vote, prior to which we said we would deliver change and today we have told the people of Scotland what that change will be. It is time to get together and use the powers that the Scottish Parliament has and will get, and to use them for the good of the Scottish people and the Scottish economy.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
It is already a tough market for north of England and Yorkshire airports. Does the Secretary of State agree that, if Scotland is going to get flexibility on air passenger duty, north of England and Yorkshire airports have to get it, too?
Mr Carmichael
The question is how the Scottish Government choose to use any flexibility they have. If they choose to cut air passenger duty, they will obviously have to cut some public service provision or raise some other tax. The hon. Gentleman should not assume that flexibility only goes one way.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
In Wales, we are required to have a referendum before we have income tax devolution of a much more modest nature. The devolution of income tax in Scotland will have profound implications for migration. In particular, if the Scots lower the top rate of tax, richer people will naturally move to Scotland. If unemployment goes up in Scotland, they will raise tax at the lower rate and reduce public services, because they do not have compensatory borrowing powers. Given that, should there not be a referendum of not just the 8% of people who live in Scotland, but of the rest of the UK? We should not be driven by the 4% of people who voted for independence; the profound implications for migration, taxation and all the rest of it should be decided by the whole of the United Kingdom.
Mr Carmichael
That is not how we have done these things in the years since the late 1970s, when such decisions were first mooted. The hon. Gentleman has outlined all sorts of scenarios, many of which are possible, and some of which we may even see. That is what we mean when we say that the United Kingdom changed for ever on 18 September. The duty is on all of us in the political parties and the body politic to come up to the mark and to meet that change. As far as referendums are concerned, I am afraid that I have had enough to be going on with.
Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD)
May I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on his considerable achievement in helping to secure this historic agreement? I also pay tribute to his predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore). I invite the Secretary of State to agree with me that, as the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) said earlier, what is good enough for the Scots is good enough for the English, too. Does the Secretary of State support a similar constitutional arrangement for England?
Mr Carmichael
I thank my hon. Friend for referring to me and my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore). My hon. Friend is right to say that constitutional change has to come to other parts of the United Kingdom. However, it is not for me to tell the people of England how they want to govern themselves. They have to have that conversation and make the decision for themselves.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State confirm that the amount of revenue raised by income tax in Scotland will not affect the amount paid to Scotland under the Barnett formula?
Mr Carmichael
No, the amount taken from income tax will now be divorced from the Barnett formula. The Barnett formula will operate for that part of the public expenditure grant to Scotland and the Scottish Parliament that remains after that process.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
If legislation on elections is a Scottish matter, does that mean that Scotland decides who gets a vote in Scotland, or is that only so for the Scottish Parliament, while Westminster decides who gets a Westminster vote?
Mr Carmichael
That is in fact the case. That matter is dealt with in some detail by Lord Smith in his report. The responsibility in relation to elections to local authorities and to the Scottish Parliament will be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. However, this House will retain control over elections to it.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
I do not envy the Secretary of State his task of going in January to all of the parts of Scotland where Robert Burns dallied and romanced. The important point, however, is that a lot of people in Scotland want to be involved in this debate and discussion. They want to be fully informed about what is happening, not just to be told what they think or to be told that there is some form of betrayal. What arrangements will the Secretary of State make to ensure that people are fully involved in these debates?
Mr Carmichael
The hon. Lady is right to highlight that one of the great successes of the whole referendum experience was that we got the widest possible range of engagement across Scottish society. We have to make sure that that does not now just wither away; we have to do what we can to harness and nurture it. I recently met representatives of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, the Scottish Trades Union Congress, the Church of Scotland and the National Union of Students to discuss exactly that process. Not everything of this sort has to be done by Government and through the party political process. The most effective civic engagement is that which grows out of civic groups themselves.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Scotland receives from English taxpayers an additional annual public subsidy, over and above what any English region receives, not because there is an extra level of deprivation, but simply because Scotland is Scotland. What proportion of the funds that are given to Scotland under the Barnett formula will be affected by the ceding of tax-raising powers to the Scottish Parliament?
Mr Carmichael
It was of common accord between the parties that the Barnett formula would remain. As I have made clear to the House, the amount of money that goes to Scotland under the Barnett formula will be reduced, because what is taken in taxation directly by the Scottish Parliament will be taken out of the equation. It is an important truth that, although the Barnett formula produces some anomalies, no party has ever been able to produce a better option.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
Communities across Britain want power to be held and wielded closer to them. I therefore welcome Scotland’s increased self-determination. However, we in the north-east also want more powers to be devolved to us. The Secretary of State told my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) that there were no easy answers, but will he at least confirm that he is looking for solutions? Specifically, how will he enable us to ensure that Newcastle international airport can compete with Scottish airports in respect of air passenger duty?
Mr Carmichael
The Government have already embarked on that process through the programme of city deals and growth deals over the past four and a half years. I do believe that there needs to be greater devolution to all corners of the United Kingdom. My family stretches to the south-west of England, where my in-laws come from. They understand that the needs of people in the south-west of England are as badly served by the conventional centralised model of government from Whitehall as the needs of the rest of my family in Scotland ever were. It is now for the hon. Lady and her communities to come forward with a coherent plan for exactly what that change should be.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
Further to that answer, in which the Secretary of State talked about devolution to all parts of the United Kingdom, does he not accept that when addressing issues such as English votes for English laws, which many of us feel passionately and strongly about, and the balance between local and central Government, it should be this sovereign Parliament of the United Kingdom that takes the final decisions, not some remote constitutional convention, as is suggested by those on the Opposition Front Bench?
Mr Carmichael
Perhaps I should explain how constitutional conventions work. A constitutional convention brings together the political parties and the voices of business, the trade unions, civic groups, the Churches and all the rest of it. They build the consensus, as they did in Scotland, but it was this House that passed the Scotland Acts in 1998 and 2012. There is no question of our subcontracting legislative responsibility.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
The commission and the parties recognised that foreign affairs would remain a reserved matter. The report refers to vital “national infrastructure” in respect of the security and defence of the United Kingdom. Will the Secretary of State confirm that all parties involved in the Smith commission, including the SNP and the Greens, signed up to that? Will he therefore have discussions with the Scottish Government to make it clear that it is this House and this United Kingdom that are responsible for the foreign and defence policy of our country?
Mr Carmichael
I confirm that it was an agreement of all the parties. I hope that all parties will demonstrate good faith and honour that agreement. Obviously, I cannot account for everyone.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
Apparently, home rule for Scotland and the creation of a powerful Scottish Parliament can be decided on in the blink of an eye, but the issue of English votes for English laws needs to be kicked into the long grass, with a constitutional convention. Is it not the truth that, unless these proposals go along with English votes for English laws, my constituents in Brigg and Goole and the people of England will continue to get the fluffy end of the lollipop?
Mr Carmichael
Well, there’s no accounting for taste I suppose.
In the blink of an eye? I have been a political activist for 34 years, and this issue has dominated Scottish political discourse during that time, and I suspect for some time before that. A substantial amount of work was done on today’s proposals by the Liberal Democrats, the Conservatives and Labour before the referendum, so it is not a rushed or ill-considered piece of work but has considerable background. On English votes for English laws, the hon. Gentleman should be careful about devolving power within Parliament without tackling the same question within the Executive, as that would risk creating another instability.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
The signature policy of the Smith commission concerns the full devolution of income tax receipts. The Wales Bill, which completed its passage through the House of Lords on Monday, devolves only a small partial element of income tax receipts, and only following another referendum many years down the line. When will Westminster stop treating Wales like a second-class nation?
Mr Carmichael
I thought the only grievance we would get today would be from the Scottish nationalists; I had forgotten we had Plaid Cymru here as well. I commend to the hon. Gentleman the positive approach taken by all parties in building a consensus in Wales. We have always known that for different historical reasons, devolution across the different nations in this country emerges at different paces, which is absolutely right. If he wants more progress, he should try to learn from the Scottish nationalists—or at least from what they were doing before today—and work with other parties to build that consensus.
Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab)
Scotland will get what Scotland wants, but when will England get what it wants? Does the Secretary of State agree that we need much more radical change in Westminster than has currently been contemplated, more radical devolution within England than has currently been delivered or offered, and a much more open, inclusive and democratic process than that being led by the Leader of the House?
Mr Carmichael
I am confident that England will get what England wants when England decides exactly what it is she wants.
Business of the House
(10 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The First Secretary of State and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr William Hague)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a statement about the business for next week.
Monday 1 December—Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill.
Tuesday 2 December—Second Reading of the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill.
Wednesday 3 December—My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of Exchequer will deliver his autumn statement, followed by remaining stages of the Taxation of Pensions Bill.
Thursday 4 December—Motion to approve a statutory instrument, followed by debate on a motion relating to Financial Conduct Authority redress scheme, and a general debate on availability and pricing of branded medicines on the NHS. The subjects for both debates were determined by the Backbench Business Committee.
Friday 5 December—Private Members’ Bills.
The provisional business for the week commencing 8 December will include:
Monday 8 December—Second Reading of the Infrastructure Bill [Lords].
For the convenience of the House, I advise colleagues that the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill will be considered in a Committee of the whole House on Tuesday 9 December, Monday 15 December and Tuesday 16 December.
I also inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 11 and 15 December will be:
Thursday 11 December—Debate on reports from the International Development Committee on strengthening health systems in developing countries and on recovery and development in Sierra Leone and Liberia, followed by a debate on the 11th report from the International Development Committee on disability and development.
Monday 15 December—General debate on an e-petition relating to Millie’s Trust campaign to train all nurses in paediatric first aid.
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
I thank the Leader of the House for announcing next week’s business, albeit with last-minute changes. I note the sudden appearance next Thursday of unidentified Government business. Will he tell us what it is, or is he playing partisan games? In the light of the publication of the Smith commission report this morning and the assurance that there will be a draft Bill by the end of January, will he set out in more detail what arrangements the Government will make to enable proper consideration and debate on that report, both inside and outside the House?
Yesterday the Home Secretary published the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, and we will debate its Second Reading next Tuesday. The Bill contains welcome measures to restore relocation powers and give more support to the Prevent programme. Will the Leader of the House ensure that he gives the Bill appropriate time to be properly scrutinised, especially because yesterday the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation said that one of the measures was:
“An announcement waiting for a policy.”
Do the Government need time to explain why they got it so wrong on control orders and put public safety at risk?
Next week we have the autumn statement, which is yet again in December—I am beginning to wonder whether the Chancellor knows something about climate change that he is not letting on. In 2010 he promised two things: that he would balance the books by 2015, and that he would not do that on the backs of the poor. Four years later he has clearly broken both promises. His five-year plan to eliminate the deficit is now running four years late; wages have fallen year on year while food bank use soars. On this Government’s watch the majority of people in poverty in this country are in work, but all the Government can deliver is a £3 billion tax cut every year for the top 1% of earners. While the Chancellor makes complacent boasts about the slowest recovery for more than 100 years, is the truth that only Labour can end this low-wage economy and deliver a recovery for the many not the few?
One thing this Government do well is miss their own targets. We have had the Chancellor’s abject failure on the deficit. The Home Secretary has finally admitted that the Government have no hope of meeting their target to reduce net migration—we all remember “no ifs, no buts”—and today’s net migration figures show the scale of her failure. The Government’s flagship universal credit programme is being delayed again. It was meant to be in place by 2017, but yesterday’s report from the National Audit Office states that it will not be ready until 2020. One million people were meant to be on universal credit by this April, but there were fewer than 10,000. It was supposed to save money, but the Government wasted millions of pounds on a failed IT system and staff costs are set to soar by a massive £2.8 billion. The Secretary of State talks fondly of “landing” the universal credit programme safely, but is it clear from that damning report that it has not yet even taken off?
This Government have managed to be cruel and inefficient at the same time. They have overspent by £25 billion on social security because they have not tackled low-paid and insecure work. They have spent £5 billion more than they planned on tax credits and £6 billion more on housing benefit. People are suffering because of the bedroom tax, and nearly a million of the most vulnerable people in our country have been left waiting for their disability assessment. Will the Leader of the House arrange for a debate in Government time so that we can start to sort out the rhetoric from the reality on social security?
This week yet again we have watched as the Conservative party’s civil war on Europe widens. After the Chancellor’s humiliating climbdown on EU bankers’ bonuses, and while the Prime Minister keeps us all waiting for yet another speech to end all speeches on Europe, it is no wonder that Conservative MPs are taking matters into their own hands. The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) said:
“I agree with UKIP and Nigel Farage on virtually everything”.
The former Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has made a bid to put himself at the head of the “out” campaign, and six senior Ministers look set to join him. No wonder the Home Secretary has let it be known that she no longer rates the Prime Minister and has “given up” on him.
Appearing on “Desert Island Discs” this week, the Home Secretary revealed that her favourite song is Abba’s “Dancing Queen”, but what she really meant was “Take a chance on me”. She revealed her favourite book to be “Pride and Prejudice.” Well, Mr Speaker, “It is a truth universally acknowledged” that the Conservative party just cannot stop banging on about Europe. I can only imagine what it would be like to be stuck on a desert island cut off, alone, isolated from friends, with no one to talk to and no hope of rescue. It must be a bit like being a Liberal Democrat.
Mr Hague
I think the hon. Lady is being a little audacious in talking about “Desert Island Discs” when the Labour party cannot even sing “Stand By Your Man” very well. When she talked about somebody being cut off from all his friends, I thought she must have been referring to the Leader of the Opposition.
The hon. Lady asked about last minute changes to business. Unusually, I have announced business three weeks ahead to 15 December. It is for the convenience of the House to have business announced as far ahead as possible, so I think that that is a good last minute change to make. She also asked about a particular item of business on Thursday next week. I can assure her that it will be very clear by next Thursday.
We have just had a statement on the Smith commission report. It is very important for the House to debate these matters further and to debate the consequences for the rest of the United Kingdom, a point made by many of my hon. Friends and Opposition Members. As the Chair of the Cabinet Committee for Devolved Powers, I intend to ensure that the Government publish the options for England in a Command Paper before Christmas, following up the work of the Smith commission. I am sure the House will want to consider that, and I will make a statement at the time.
The hon. Lady asked about appropriate time to be given for the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill. I have announced three days in Committee on the Floor of the House. There will be a clear gap between the Committee stage and Report. The Opposition wanted the Report stage to be after the Christmas recess and it will be. That will give the House time to reflect on all parts of the Bill, so I hope we have accommodated Opposition concerns on that. We have had productive discussions on this issue. The Bill is very important for our national security, but of course it needs to be properly scrutinised and considered in detail.
The hon. Lady asked about the autumn statement and poked fun at its being on 3 December. I have to remind her that autumn lasts until the winter solstice, which is normally on 21 December, or on 22 or 23 December in certain years. I can therefore assure the hon. Lady that 3 December is very much within autumn.
The hon. Lady asked about universal credit. The previous Government were left with a welfare system in which for every extra £10 some people earned, they lost £9 in additional taxes. Universal credit is being designed to ensure that it pays to work and it is likely to deliver benefits to millions of people. Yes, it is always possible to criticise the implementation of IT projects, but it was estimated that the previous Government wasted £26 billion on IT projects that did not succeed. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), made a statement to the House, so Members have had the opportunity to discuss that.
The hon. Lady asked about relative incomes. Relative poverty in the last year for which we have figures, 2012-13, was at its lowest since the 1980s. We have 600,000 fewer people in relative poverty than there were at the general election. The answer to poverty is to get people into work, and that is what the Government are achieving. She asked about a recovery for the many or the few. The previous Government left office with no recovery for anyone at all—neither many nor few. That is what the Opposition’s policies would bring about again.
The hon. Lady talked about comments within the Conservative party on various issues in the past week. It has not been a great week in the Labour party. She has made an exception of asking about the whereabouts of the Chief Whip this week. As I explained last week, he spent much time in Rochester. Really, the Opposition Chief Whip should have been there to tell members of the shadow Cabinet not to photograph people’s houses. She would have been well deployed—[Interruption.] Oh, she was there! Well, she obviously did not get to all the members of the shadow Cabinet.
After the stealth reshuffle that I think took place in September on the Opposition Front Bench, and the anti-climax reshuffle in October, we have now had the Rochester reshuffle in November. But we are pleased that the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) is still in place and we are absolutely delighted that the Leader of the Opposition is in place all the way to the general election.
Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
May we have a debate on wildlife crime? Is the Leader of the House aware that the trade in endangered species is being facilitated by some courier firms, which transport animal parts and derivative products without inquiring what it is they are delivering? Should we not impose a greater duty on couriers, and should we not be doing more to stamp out this vile crime?
Mr Hague
My right hon. Friend makes a very powerful point. There is a good case for a debate on this matter and I hope he will take it to the Backbench Business Committee. As chair of the ministerial committee on animal health and animal issues, I too feel extremely strongly on this issue. I believe there is more that Governments across the world can do, and I will be doing some work on that in the next few months.
Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab)
Can I take it from the Leader of the House’s words that whatever the statutory instrument is on, it will not be on English votes for English laws? When he brings forward the White Paper, will it include proposals to take the options he identifies out to the country at large for discussion, debate and amendment, before anything is brought back to this House?
Mr Hague
There is no primary legislation that would permit the statutory instrument to be about English votes on English laws; the right hon. Gentleman can be assured of that. One of the reasons why it is important to bring forward a Government paper on the options on decentralisation and on the question that we have come to call “English votes on English laws” is so that there can be a full debate in the country and discussions between parties. Indeed, I regret that those on the Opposition Front Bench have chosen not to take part in cross-party discussions. I will be writing to them today to invite them to contribute ideas to the Command Paper, so there is a chance for them to reconsider their position. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can encourage them to do so.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
This weekend, my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), Tom Pursglove, our excellent candidate in Corby, and I will be delivering our north Northampton EU referendum. We will be stopped by people saying that the most important issue is immigration and the number of people coming here from the EU. Can we have an emergency statement next week from the Prime Minister on stopping EU migration until the position is resolved?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend will know that the Prime Minister will be making a speech on these issues, particularly in relation to the European Union. The immigration figures today show that, while there has been a large reduction in non-EU immigration—in fact, that is at its lowest level since the 1990s—there has been an increase in EU immigration to the United Kingdom. That is an important issue, as I am sure he will find when he is canvassing with our excellent candidate in Corby this weekend. The Prime Minister will address this issue in his forthcoming speech.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
When the shadow Leader of the House was referring to obscure Abba hits, I thought she might have mentioned a song on Abba’s 1973 “Ring Ring” album, “He Is Your Brother”.
I turn to the much more serious matter of serious and organised crime and the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill. The Leader of the House will be aware that two prominent members of Sinn Fein, including an elected representative, were last night arrested in Northern Ireland for serious and organised crimes, including an historic murder case. Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to include such matters in the Second Reading debate next week, so that we can get to the bottom of some of the most serious and obnoxious crimes currently taking place in Northern Ireland?
Mr Hague
It is up to hon. Members what they wish to raise in the debate—subject to the scope of the Bill, of course. The Home Secretary will set out on Second Reading the scope of the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill and its provisions, so I am sure the hon. Gentleman will have opportunities to ask her about those matters when we begin the debate on the Bill.
Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD)
We heard earlier the statement from the Secretary of State for Scotland about the historic agreement on greater devolution of power to the Scots, and the Leader of the House said just now that the Government would publish their Command Paper on options for England before Christmas. Will he commit to an urgent debate in the House once it has been published, and does he personally agree that what is good enough for the Scots is good enough for the English?
Mr Hague
I will seek to make a statement on behalf of the Government when we publish the Command Paper, and it will then be important to hold debates on these things. Opposition Members have just been calling for public discussion, so I am sure we will want to hold such debates. What has been agreed for Scotland will undoubtedly have consequences for England, and that is something on which all of us, including my hon. Friend, will want to put our views.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
When can we debate early-day motion 501, which forecasts that the Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill will become a landmark in legislative futility?
[That this House believes that a coalition bill will become a major landmark in legislative futility; further believes that the Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill described by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield, a former Conservative Attorney General, as utter tosh is designed to create volunteers and heroes by legislation; salutes the intention of Lord Lloyd to move against all three clauses of the bill so that only the title will remain; is alarmed that responsible bodies warn that the bill could do harm, including the Association of Personal Injury Lawyers who say the bill will put vulnerable people at risk and the leading law firm Slater and Gordon who described the bill as pointless and potentially dangerous; calls on the Government to avoid the derision from judges that a former Conservative Solicitor General said will be provoked and drop this lamentable headline-seeking example of crude populism.]
It was described by a former Attorney-General as “utter tosh”, and a former Solicitor-General has said it will cause cynicism among judges. Will the Leader of the House’s party help the reputation of this Parliament by supporting the intention of Lord Lloyd to move against all three elements of the Bill so that all that is left is the title?
Sir George Young (North West Hampshire) (Con)
In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mark Hunter), the Leader of the House confirmed that there would be not just a statement and a Command Paper, but a debate on English votes for English laws. May I press him to go to the next stage and promise that at the end of the debate there will be a vote?
Mr Hague
I am very much in favour of testing the opinion of the House. Of course, that would require agreement within the Government about the motion we bring forward and with the Opposition about the framework for such a debate. Like my right hon. Friend, however, I am personally very much in favour of fully testing the opinion of the House, including by having a vote.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
I am sure the whole House will want to congratulate Steelite International on its recent “Made in Britain” award from the Growing Business Awards. Given the importance of the product safety regulations, which I understand will be discussed on 4 December, will the Leader of the House arrange for the Business Secretary to make a statement about whether the Government will support origin marking, so that when someone turns over a piece of ceramic, they can see exactly what they are getting and where it was made?
Mr Hague
I join the hon. Lady in congratulating the business concerned, and I will draw the Business Secretary’s attention to the representation she has made. This country has a good record of supporting regulations within the EU that increase consumer awareness and knowledge of what people are buying, and I know that he will want to keep the House informed. I shall pass on the hon. Lady’s representations to him.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
May we have a debate on planning rules, particularly the rights of local residents living on the borders of local authorities? For example, there is a go-karting track in north Warwickshire that has a significant impact on my constituents over the road in Tamworth, yet those residents have no say in the election of North Warwickshire councillors, who of course make the planning decisions. I know there are rules about consultation and feedback, but a debate would allow us to discuss how we can address that continuing question of accountability.
Mr Hague
I agree that accountability on these things is important. As always, on these and other matters, my hon. Friend speaks up well for the interests of his constituents. It is open to him to pursue a debate—either an Adjournment debate or a Backbench Business debate—on these issues.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
The Royal Society’s report on resilience to extreme weather has just been published. As the Leader of the House will know, it has highlighted that by 2030, 800,000 properties—over 300,000 more than currently—will be subject to extreme flood risk as a result of climate change, even with the additional spending the Government are trying to make available up to 2020. May we have a debate on this important matter and report?
Mr Hague
I agree that it is an important report. The hon. Gentleman referred to increased spending. We have announced a record capital settlement of £2.3 billion over the next six years to tackle flooding, and we are spending £171 million on maintenance alone. However, as he said, such reports forecast that the problem will intensify over the coming decades, so there is a good case for considering these matters in the House. I cannot promise that the Government will provide such a debate immediately, given all the other pressures, but the hon. Gentleman could pursue the matter with the Backbench Business Committee and with Ministers at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs during Question Time.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
In the week that saw the publication of the report on the Woolwich atrocity, attention has inevitably focused on the killers and the social media companies that think it was nothing to do with them. May we have a statement from an appropriate Minister, therefore, on the failure so far to recognise the bravery of three people who did not pass by on the other side? Amanda Donnelly, Gemini Donnelly-Martin and Ingrid Loyau-Kennett sought to help Fusilier Rigby and confronted the killers. One of them has since suffered major mental health problems. Why has neither a Queen’s commendation nor a George medal been awarded to these three brave women, who clearly deserve them?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend makes an important point. As he knows, the Prime Minister made a statement on the report by the Intelligence and Security Committee on Tuesday, but he is right to mention the bravery and outstanding behaviour of these individuals and to draw their names to the attention of the House. I will ensure that the Prime Minister is made aware of his remarks.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
I would like to associate myself with the comments of the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), which, as a Member of Parliament for a constituency in the borough of Greenwich, I very much appreciate.
The privatisation of the NHS met its Waterloo last Friday in a vote on my private Member’s Bill, which seeks to take the market, and the regulatory authorities that introduced it into the NHS, out of the Health and Social Care Act 2012. The will of the House was heard when it voted overwhelmingly in favour of my Bill— 241 to 18—so may I urge the Leader of the House to bring forward a resolution as soon as possible to ensure that it goes into Committee?
Mr Hague
While not agreeing with the Bill, I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s work in promoting it and the debate that took place last week. He must know, however, that his Bill is some way down the list of private Members’ Bills, although it received its Second Reading last week, and that there are other private Members’ Bills going into Committee. His Bill will have to go into Committee following the normal procedures and at the normal time, in the light of the order of sequence of private Members’ Bills.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
On Christmas eve, printing company Polestar will be axing 75 jobs in my constituency and shutting all three of its sites in Colchester. May we therefore have a debate on spare capacity in the printing industry—a situation not helped when British companies such as BT print all their directories overseas?
Mr Hague
I think that a whole debate in the House on spare capacity in the printing industry would be a little narrow, but of course the hon. Gentleman could pursue these issues in an Adjournment debate or elsewhere. He has just demonstrated that he is pursuing the matter in the House and standing up for his constituents, and I am sure he will find further opportunities to do so.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to early-day motion 39 about the Vienna conference on the humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons.
[That this House notes the recent governmental conferences on the Humanitarian Consequences of Nuclear Weapons, attended by 127 states in Norway in March 2013 and by 145 states in Mexico in February 2014; welcomes the announcement of a new follow-up conference in Austria in December 2014; further notes the call for UK attendance; and urges the Government to ensure that it is represented at this event in Vienna. ]
The United States has recently announced that it will join the 150 countries attending that conference. Will the right hon. Gentleman clarify whether it is the intention of the UK Government to send a representative to Vienna on 8 December?
Mr Hague
As the hon. Gentleman will know very well, it is Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions next Tuesday on 2 December. I spoke for a long time for the Foreign Office, but rather than trying to do so now, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to FCO questions. In previous years we have been reluctant to attend, given various difficulties to do with that particular conference, but I am sure Foreign Office Ministers will be able to answer his question clearly next week.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
May I press my right hon. Friend a little more on the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young)? In common with many people, my main priority is the Union and friendship between our two nations. This depends on the absence of resentment on either side. What some of us are worried about is that as we approach the end of this Parliament, it will suddenly be announced that we cannot have a vote because the Deputy Prime Minister has thrown his toys out of the pram, or something like that, and there is no agreement in the quad, and the whole thing will just fade into the long grass. We want an absolute cast-iron, specific assurance from the Conservative side of the Government that we will have this vote.
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend need be in no doubt that the Prime Minister and I, and Conservatives in the coalition—and, indeed, across the country—will be very committed to having a vote in this House. The only caveat is this: my hon. Friend will be aware that, since we do not have an overall majority, we are not in total control of Government business or of the business of this House. We have, of course, seen some of our hon. Friends from the Liberal Democrats, including my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mark Hunter), looking for these matters to be considered in detail. Let us make sure that we are able to do that.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
If the right hon. Gentleman knows what the business is next Thursday, why cannot we? The Government favour transparency, so they say, but making the business invisible simply turns that into a game of charades. If he is not prepared to tell us what the business is next Thursday, perhaps he could get up at the Dispatch Box and mime it, so that we might at least have a clue what it is that we will be debating next week.
Mr Hague
I do not think miming would be very easy for Hansard to record, so that is not the solution! A small part of next Thursday’s business is not invisible; it is more that its full contents are not yet clear. It will become entirely apparent why that is the case in due course.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
The new DVLA contract with Specsavers for drivers’ eye tests has meant that constituents in Campbeltown or Islay have to travel 90 miles by road or take a four-hour ferry journey to get their eye tests, which is completely unacceptable. May we have an urgent statement from the Department for Transport to allow my constituents to have an eye test locally, because they certainly do not want to go to Specsavers?
Mr Hague
I am advised that Specsavers is currently negotiating contracts with a number of independent opticians to ensure that there is appropriate coverage. I am advised, too, that where it is unable to negotiate a contract locally, the DVLA does not expect individuals to travel excessive distances. Where it is satisfied that a contracted optician or optometrist is not available, the DVLA will approach an independent provider to conduct the vision tests on an ad hoc basis. The hon. Gentleman’s constituents may be able to make use of that.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
My constituent Dawn Astle is campaigning for justice for her late father, the former West Bromwich Albion and England footballer, Jeff Astle, who sadly died in 2002 after suffering neurological damage as a result of heading old-style leather footballs. When I recently visited Coalville rugby club, I found it had numerous leaflets advising about the risks and dangers of head injuries, yet in the words of Dr Robert Cantu, a leading neurologist, football is “light years behind” rugby union in appreciating this problem. May we have a debate on what more the football governing bodies can do to address this long-running issue?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend rightly raises an important issue on behalf of the family of Jeff Astle as well as those currently playing the sport. His question is all the more poignant given that we heard this morning the very sad news of the tragic death of the Australian cricketer, Phillip Hughes. I believe that the Football Association published new guidelines in August relating to the problem of head injuries. The FA says, however, that it is aware that the rules around treating head injuries cover only players in the present and the future and cannot cover past injuries. I am sure that a debate would give Members an opportunity to discuss what more could be done—in other sports as well as football. I am sure that this would be a good argument to present to the Backbench Business Committee.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Health recently visited Medway Maritime hospital in my constituency, and I would like to thank him for all the support he has given to the hospital to turn it around as soon as possible. May we have an urgent statement from the Health Secretary on hospitals in special measures to highlight the work the Government are doing to improve these hospitals, taking into account the fact that six of them have already been taken out of special measures?
Mr Hague
The Secretary of State regularly answers questions about and comments on hospitals in special measures. My hon. Friend will know that the Medway is receiving an additional £5.5 million of support to increase its resilience in the coming winter period. Eighteen trusts have gone into special measures, since that regime was established, with six of them now turned around, as my hon. Friend said, and no longer in special measures, while major progress has been made at nearly all the others. I am sure we all believe that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has taken the right and necessary action with regard to these hospitals.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
If the Liberal Democrats prevented the Government from introducing a motion on English votes for English laws, and if in that event some of us tabled a suitable motion through the Backbench Business Committee, would the Leader of the House encourage Conservative Members to support it?
Mr Hague
Yes. If for any reason there were no vote on these matters stemming from a Government initiative, there would be very strong pressure on the Backbench Business Committee. I shall keep hon. Members suitably informed. How all of us vote on a particular motion will, of course, depend on its content. I shall keep my hon. Friend and others informed.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
We heard a very positive announcement on the east coast main line from the Transport Secretary this morning, building on the huge investment in rail infrastructure in the north, both of which significantly benefit my Harrogate and Knaresborough constituency. May we have a debate about how the Government are transforming the rail network in the north of England?
Mr Hague
There is good case for that. This morning’s announcements will be of great benefit to my hon. Friend’s constituents, and indeed to mine. We saw an extraordinary display from Labour earlier. Despite an announcement bringing the prospect of a better return for the taxpayer, an improved service, more seats and more trains going to more stations across the north of England, Labour Members were against it because they take the trade union line and are still wedded to ideas of nationalisation, so I think a debate on this subject would be very welcome.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
Speaking as chairman of the all-party group for fair fuel for motorists and hauliers, we very much welcome the Government’s freezing of fuel duty. However, despite a 30% reduction in the price of crude oil since June, pump prices in the UK have fallen by only 6%. Does my right hon. Friend agree that a full Competition and Markets Authority inquiry into the pricing of petrol and diesel is now long overdue, and may we have a statement?
Mr Hague
It is important for these price reductions to be passed on. The Office of Fair Trading has investigated these concerns. In January 2013, it published its analysis, and Government analysis suggests that crude price changes are passed on to pump prices within about six or seven weeks. National average pump prices are now at their lowest levels since December 2010, but it is, of course, quite right to keep up the pressure to ensure such reductions are passed on. My hon. Friend will also be aware that, thanks to the policies of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, pump prices are nearly 20p a litre lower than they would have been under the last Government’s fuel duty plans.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
May we have a debate on the role of smaller hospitals within the NHS, which was the subject of a recent Monitor report? My constituents in Rugby have consistently made it clear that, wherever possible, they prefer health services to be provided locally at the Hospital of St. Cross. The report states that
“small district general hospitals can thrive”,
which means patients being treated closer to home in Rugby.
Mr Hague
This issue is very important to many parts of the country. The Government agree with Monitor’s findings that smaller hospitals must have a future. I believe that the local trust has given an assurance that it has no plans or intention to close the Hospital of St Cross, and that should there be any future plans for service changes—in Rugby or anywhere else in the country—it would be necessary to demonstrate that they had the support of local doctors and patients, and public engagement would be required. However, I know that my hon. Friend rightly places great value on that hospital, and will always defend it very strongly.
Afghanistan
(10 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall make a statement on Afghanistan.
Let me begin by offering my condolences to those who were killed and injured in today’s attack, including, sadly, two British embassy staff. It is a tragic reminder that there are some who still seek to undermine the progress that has been made towards peace and security in Afghanistan. I also pay tribute to the courage and commitment of our armed forces, 453 of whom lost their lives, and to the many others who have suffered life-changing injuries in the service of our country. Their legacy is that terrorists have been prevented from using Afghanistan as a launch pad for attacks on our streets. The Afghan security forces whom our armed forces have helped to mentor, and who are now securing the country’s future, have played a major part in that. The sacrifice of our servicemen and women will never be forgotten.
Since the last quarterly statement to the House on 9 September, a national unity Government has been formed, with Dr Ashraf Ghani as President and Dr Abdullah Abdullah as chief executive. President Ghani was inaugurated on 29 September. That was a historic moment: the first democratic transfer of power from one elected President to another. In their first significant act, the Government signed the bilateral security agreement and the NATO status of forces agreement. During my meeting with President Ghani in September, I was encouraged to note that he had clear priorities for the new Government: tackling corruption, making progress on the peace process, working towards stronger economic development and improving regional relations, including relations with Pakistan. We will be working closely with President Ghani and chief executive Abdullah as they continue Afghanistan’s significant development.
The Afghan national security forces successfully secured the elections this year, with more than 7 million people voting. The forces have performed well against a determined enemy. Despite prolonged fighting over the summer, the Taliban have failed to take any district centres, or to capitalise on small and temporary tactical gains in north Helmand and the taking of significant casualties, but they remain a potent force. Afghan forces continue to conduct clearance operations against the Taliban, and their strong performance this year should serve them well in the next fighting season.
The UK had the second largest force in Afghanistan, and our troops undertook some of the heaviest fighting, but it is important to remember that we were only one part of a coalition of 51 nations that helped to build the Afghan national security forces from scratch to a force of over 330,000, which is capable of battling the insurgency and sustaining progress in the removal of the terrorist threat. There can be no guarantees, but the sacrifices made by coalition and Afghan forces have given Afghanistan the best possible chance of a stable future.
The UK has taken a leading role at the Afghan National Army Officer Academy, and I addressed the graduates of the first battalion at their graduation ceremony during my visit in September. We will continue our role there next year with around 470 troops as the United Kingdom contribution to the NATO Resolute Support mission, a coalition of 35 nations. Our contribution will focus principally on mentoring in the officer academy. We have committed ourselves to providing about £70 million a year to help to sustain the Afghan forces, thus reaffirming another element of the enduring international commitment to Afghanistan.
The redeployment of matériel has been a challenging process, but, notwithstanding the scepticism expressed by many people, it is now almost complete. The redeployment from Iraq in 2009 was conducted predominantly through Kuwait, across 130 km of relatively permissive lines of communication. In Afghanistan, the land routes to the nearest port were 900 km long, and included areas of significant threat. Despite that, about three and a half times as many containers and about four times as many vehicles have been redeployed from Afghanistan as were returned from Iraq.
I want to put on record my praise for the efficiency of our military planners and logisticians, as well as that of our combat troops. All our major matériel has now left Afghanistan. At the height of our involvement, we had some 137 bases; more than 120 have now been handed to the Afghan authorities, and the rest have been dismantled. Earlier this week, our troops left Kandahar airfield for the last time, following our departure from Camp Bastion in October.
As we face new terror threats, we are learning the hard lessons of our Afghan campaign. First, to take on an insurgency, armed forces must gain the trust and support of the local population. That support must be inclusive, crossing political lines and bridging tribal divides, and it must also involve early training of local security forces. Secondly, the increasingly complex nature of 21st-century conflict means that we must build strong international military coalitions—alliances that are ready to act, and capable of sharing resources. Our experience of forging partnerships in Afghanistan provides a model for the sort of agile and effective rapid reaction forces that NATO countries pledged to develop at the recent NATO summit in Wales.
Thirdly, military action can only be one part of a wider solution. In Afghanistan we pioneered a cross-Government approach that combined defence, diplomacy and development via our provincial reconstruction teams. They were deployed in the Afghan provinces, and combined military and civilian organisations to strengthen local political institutions, empower local leaders, and improve social and economic progress.
When I visited Helmand, I saw the difference that has been made by the United Kingdom, including our armed forces. Most citizens in Helmand now have access to health care, household incomes have risen by 20% since 2010, and more than 120,000 students are enrolled in Government schools across the province—including nearly 30,000 girls, compared with none in 2001. We will continue to support that development, and our continued support will include maintaining our contribution of £178 million a year in development aid until at least 2017.
Next week, the London conference on Afghanistan will be led by our Prime Minister, President Ghani, chief executive Abdullah, and other leading international figures. It will focus on the future development partnership between the international community and the new Afghan Government to build on the foundations that we have laid over the last 13 years, and will reaffirm our enduring commitment to supporting the future of Afghanistan.
There remain significant challenges ahead for Afghanistan, but we have helped to develop Afghan security forces who have proved that they are able to take the fight to the insurgency. Tackling the drugs trade remains a considerable and generational challenge, but we and our international partners are committed to helping the Afghan Government to combat it. The international community is working with the new Afghan Government to secure long-term fiscal sustainability, and we are pleased to see the new efforts that are being made to tackle corruption.
We fully support the Afghan Government’s promotion of prosperity through jobs, growth and investment, which builds on the sacrifices made by our armed forces. That campaign was long, but it was worth while, and we believe that we have given Afghanistan the best chance of a safer future.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement and for his courtesy in informing me earlier in the week that he would be making it today. I concur with both the tone and content of his remarks, and was particularly pleased to hear about his discussions with President Ghani, the good progress of the draw-down and the continuing work on development issues.
We are all shocked by this morning’s despicable terrorist attack on a British embassy vehicle in Kabul. People have lost their lives. It reminds us of the dangers still faced and the challenges that remain. Can the Secretary of State give us any further details about that incident?
Like the Secretary of State, I pay tribute to our armed forces. Our servicemen and women perform their duties with bravery, honour and distinction. Nowhere has that been more evident than in Afghanistan. I think in particular of the 453 members of our armed forces who gave their lives serving our country, as well as the many who were injured. They and their loved ones are in my thoughts and, I am sure, the thoughts of all Members of this House. As the Secretary of State knows, we support efforts to have them commemorated in a national memorial in London, and will work with the Government and others to bring that about. Can he update the House on the progress on that?
I say with sincerity that the United Kingdom’s role in Afghanistan in the past 13 years is one we can be proud of. Does the Secretary of State agree that our combat mission was a success? It has been hard fought and we have paid a heavy price, but the consequences would have been far worse had we, in 2001, left Afghanistan to those who subjugated that country and its people and used it as a base to launch terrorist attacks on other countries and their peoples. In a world that is of course still dangerous and unpredictable, the UK armed forces in Afghanistan have enhanced our safety and security in Britain by assisting the Afghans to take charge of theirs. Does he agree that those of us in positions of leadership have a responsibility to explain to the public the complexities and success of our role in Afghanistan?
The Opposition are convinced that the UK along with our allies must remain involved in assisting the fledgling Afghanistan as it takes important steps to manage its own security. Only with the international community’s enduring support can we work to ensure that hard-won gains in Afghanistan are not lost. Therefore, I want to focus my remaining remarks on the future and the role the United Kingdom will play.
The Afghan national security forces did not exist in 2001, but are making steady progress. Can the Secretary of State update us on the strength of the ANSF and the work being done to sustain and professionalise the army, police and air force? What specific work will be done by British armed forces in continuing training and support, and how many personnel will be involved? Can he tell us whether any of that work will involve helping with the removal of unexploded ordnance? Does he believe that sufficient numbers are being committed for the task that they have?
I and my shadow Cabinet colleagues are committed to a cross-Government, multi-agency approach, which the Secretary of State mentioned. The key tenet of that will of course be the relationship between the Department for International Development, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Ministry of Defence. Can he tell us how many staff from each Department, excluding the armed forces, will remain in Afghanistan beyond the end of 2014?
To that end, I welcome, as the Secretary of State did, the forthcoming London Afghanistan conference, which will have the full support of the Labour party in seeking to chart a plan for security, socio-economic and development gains. He may know that the United Nations special rapporteur on violence against women, Rashida Manjoo, has called on the Government of Afghanistan and the international community to adopt sustainable measures to address the causes and consequences of gender-based violence in the country. Can the Secretary of State confirm that violence against women and girls will be a priority at the London conference? Can he tell us how many women will be invited to take part in the main conference as well as the private sector and regional co-operation side events? Does he agree that the conference communiqué should commit to the full implementation of the national action plan for the women of Afghanistan and the elimination of violence against women?
The conference will no doubt receive an update on progress towards a political settlement. Several weeks ago, Afghan President Ashraf Ghani invited the Taliban to join national reconciliation negotiations and earlier this month Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif backed Ghani’s initiative. Can the Secretary of State give a commitment that the UK Government will work and support those involved to help to make those negotiations a success?
I hope the message that the Government, our allies and the people of Afghanistan take from what the Secretary of State and I have both said is that the UK is committed to ensuring a peaceful, stable and, in time, prosperous Afghanistan. We in the UK stand by Afghanistan’s fledgling democracy and we will do all we can to help it on its journey to a brighter, better future. We owe that to the 453 brave service personnel from our armed forces who gave their lives to allow it to happen. It will be their legacy.
Michael Fallon
I am grateful to the shadow Defence Secretary both for what he said and for the tone in which he said it. As we learned this morning, there is no guarantee of an absolutely safe and stable future for Afghanistan, but I believe that we have given it the best possible chance of a stable future.
Let me try to pick up some of the points that the hon. Gentleman made. On this morning’s incident in Kabul, he will appreciate that it happened only a few hours ago. I can confirm that, sadly, two British embassy staff were killed. I believe a number of others were killed and injured, including passers-by. The incident occurred not at the embassy itself but within Kabul, some distance from the embassy. As soon as I have more details, I will of course ensure that he and the House have them.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the London memorial. He will have seen the announcement a few days ago that the memorial appeal, which was launched in The Sun, will be headed by a former chief of the defence staff, Lord Stirrup, who will be in charge of raising private sector contributions. The memorial will be in London but it is worth reminding the House that the memorial wall at Camp Bastion is being returned to this country and will be erected in the national memorial arboretum in Staffordshire.
The hon. Gentleman asked me to agree that the campaign was a success and worth while. It was certainly worth while. I believe that the decision to intervene with other countries in the light of the attack on the twin towers in 2001 was right. I do not think now there can be any question about that.
The hon. Gentleman asked me to confirm our future commitment. It is a good time to emphasise to the new Afghan Government that, although we have withdrawn our combat troops, we are not walking away from Afghanistan. We will underline that at the London conference, but our commitment to the Resolute Support mission will be enduring for 2015 and for 2016.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the make-up of the ANSF. That is a mixture of army, police and other elements, including an air force, which will take some time to develop. However, having met the local Afghan army corps commanders in Helmand province, I have no doubt about their appetite for defending their country. I saw that at the graduation ceremony that I was privileged to attend on behalf of the UK. I saw the determination of all those young officer cadets to get out into the field and defend their country against the kind of violence that we have seen and that continues sporadically in some areas.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the continuing UK presence. As I said, we will retain some 470 personnel in Afghanistan, largely in the Kabul area. They will continue to work at the national officer academy. They will provide advice on counter-terrorism and support to the security ministries. Our force will include an element of force protection, but it will be located mainly in and around Kabul. I cannot give him specific figures for the other Government Departments but, if he will allow me, I will write to him on that specific point.
Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked me about the London conference. The programme for the main event at the end of next week is still being developed with the Government of Afghanistan. However, ensuring that Afghan women’s and girls’ issues feature prominently is a top priority, and we are deliberately planning the conference in such a way that those are incorporated across all the main themes, including discussions on the overall reform agenda.
If I may, I will write to the hon. Gentleman on any further questions that I might not have picked up.
Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)
As someone who was looking at the scale of the draw-down at an early stage, I ask my right hon. Friend to do me the favour of passing on my thanks and congratulations to all those, both civilian and military, who have been involved in a magnificent logistical operation. The Ministry of Defence is often criticised—including, I have to say, on occasion, by me—but this time what it has achieved is nothing short of spectacular, and it deserves the thanks and congratulations of the whole House because it has done our country proud.
Michael Fallon
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, and he is right that there is occasional criticism of the Ministry, but I will be delighted to pass on his congratulations. This was a huge logistical exercise, and there were many who told us at the time that it simply could not be done and the matériel would not be brought out safely—that the convoys would be attacked and the lines interdicted and so on—but that did not happen. That is in very large part due to the skill, commitment and professionalism of the planners and logisticians, as well as to civil servants in my Ministry, who sometimes do not get the praise we rightly accord, of course, in the first place, to our combat troops.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
May I add my voice to that of the Secretary of State concerning the appalling terrorist attack today? Does he agree that this shows that it is not just our military but many civilians and locally engaged people and people in the various private security organisations who put their lives at risk in trying to help the people of Afghanistan, and that we should recognise that this is a threat not just in Afghanistan, but throughout the world?
Michael Fallon
I certainly endorse that. A huge number of people have been helping in the effort to bring peace and stability to Afghanistan—as the hon. Gentleman says, civil contractors, locally employed staff and others—and it is right that we acknowledge not simply their commitment, but the fact that they, too, have been willing to put themselves in harm’s way to work for a better future.
Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)
As a former Minister for Afghanistan who knows the embassy and staff there, may I, too, express my deep sadness at the events of this morning? This will have affected the place very badly, and indeed the whole of the FCO family, particularly as it is highly likely that our security staff were involved. We express our thanks to them for the work they do to protect many of us as we go around the world. We know the Government will do all they can to support them at this difficult time.
Does my right hon. Friend agree that such events make it even more important that the international community continue to provide support not just in the form of security but, crucially, of economic development, and that the conference next week in London can demonstrate that and show that upon the sacrifices of today and previous years a future for Afghanistan can, and will, be built by all of us working with the Afghan people?
Michael Fallon
I thank my right hon. Friend. Few Members of this House have as much experience as he gained in his time as Minister with responsibility for this area, and he probably knows better than any other Member of this House just how deeply this attack will be felt in the FCO family. There are going to be attacks like this. The terrorist threat—the insurgency—has not been fully defeated, and I know the Government there and their armed forces expect that and are ready to take that on.
My right hon. Friend is also right to focus on the future economic development of Afghanistan. While I am pleased that other NATO countries have now fulfilled the commitment they made to the Resolute Support mission and that finally, the numbers of troops we need from the different participating countries have been pledged, it is equally important that other countries now rally behind the London conference and make the same kind of commitment to Afghanistan’s longer term economic development. We have a Government of national unity in place there now—a Government whom I believe have a better prospect of delivering the kind of economic reform that is well placed to tackle corruption, but they are going to need the help of the international community, and I grateful to my right hon. Friend for continuing to underline that.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. He will know that the UN Office on Drugs and Crime has said there is a 7% increase in the number of hectares under poppy cultivation this year, and a 17% increase in opium production. What measures will be taken and what money will be allocated at the London conference specifically for farmers to move from the production of poppies and opium to other crops, and what money will be made available to them to make up the shortfall in their income resulting from losing that high-value crop?
Michael Fallon
If I may, I will write to the hon. Gentleman on the details of the subsidy that is made available to farmers. We should be frank about this, however, and he is right to draw attention to the challenge posed by the poppy crop. It has increased—let us make no bones about that—and it presents a threat not just to the future of Afghanistan but to the west as well, where these drugs eventually get through. So it is a challenge that the new Government have to surmount, and in doing so they are going to need all the assistance and expertise that other countries can offer.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
I support the Defence Secretary’s tributes in his statement, and as a constituency MP I wish to draw attention to 16 Air Assault Brigade. Can he elaborate on the priorities for the new Afghan Government in working towards stronger economic development? Will that include bringing on stream the turbine at Kajaki dam, which soldiers from 16 Air Assault Brigade took there more than six years ago?
Michael Fallon
I note the tribute my hon. Friend has paid to his own unit. I could easily have singled out a whole number of units but I deliberately did not because the campaign in Afghanistan involved many—from all three service in the end—and I thought it invidious to pay tribute to any particular one. However, I certainly pay tribute to his.
I am familiar with the turbine that was, at some cost and with great difficulty, brought up to the dam, and I believe there are plans to get that working finally. I will write to my hon. Friend with details on that.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Will the Defence Secretary thank and congratulate Mrs Hazel Hunt of Abergavenny, who has set up a very successful new charity named Welsh Warrior, which is helping to provide aid and comfort to those Afghan veterans who have been maimed in mind or body? Mrs Hunt is also the mother of Richard Hunt, who was the 200th solider to die in Afghanistan. She recently said, “My son was killed because of the politicians. They asked too much of the armed services.” Mrs Hunt is asking for an immediate inquiry into the war. Can she have an assurance that that inquiry will not be delayed for five years, as the Chilcot inquiry has been, so that the guilty cannot hide the truth?
Michael Fallon
I am happy to pay tribute to the work of Mrs Hunt, and I think I acknowledged the enormity of the sacrifice made by our servicemen and women, not simply those who lost their lives but those who suffered life-changing injuries during the campaign, and it is right that we should continue to pay that tribute.
The matter of an inquiry is not wholly one for me, the hon. Gentleman will understand, but I am clear that we should learn the tactical lessons of the campaign. We are already learning some of them, such as the way we combat IEDs, and I drew attention to some of the wider strategic lessons we need to learn in working with our partners, but no decision has yet been taken on the nature of any inquiry.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
I entirely endorse the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) about the seriousness and importance of the enduring commitment to which the Secretary of State has referred. Last year, the then Supreme Allied Commander Europe, Admiral Jim Stavridis, asked me to impress upon the British Government the importance of maintaining a continuing military contribution more in line with that of the Germans, who are committing about 1,000 troops. Given what has happened in Iraq and the catastrophic consequences of the reversal of the United States’ plan to leave 10,000 troops there—they were withdrawn because of Maliki’s failure to offer a status of forces agreement—will my right hon. Friend keep under review the British military contribution in Afghanistan? Many of those who have been bereaved will feel that their sons and daughters will have died in vain if we do not secure enduring peace in that country. That is a tall order, but I believe that it would be valuable if the Secretary of State could keep the British military contribution under review to ensure that what happened in Iraq does not happen in Afghanistan.
Michael Fallon
I made it clear earlier that we have withdrawn our combat troops from Afghanistan and that we are not going to revisit that particular decision. I have outlined to the House the nature of our enduring mission there, which will help the Afghan military in the challenge that it faces. My hon. Friend is right to draw some comparison with Iraq. In many senses, Afghanistan is better placed, in that we have left as our legacy an Afghan security force that is genuinely representative of all parts of the country. That was not the case with the army that was bequeathed under Maliki in Iraq. Afghanistan therefore has a better chance of dealing with the insurgency in the name of the whole of the country, and of not being subject to the political and tribal difficulties that the Iraqi national army has experienced.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
The British armed forces have spent more than a decade fighting the Taliban, yet it seems that the Taliban are now part of the reconciliation negotiations. What does the Secretary of State see as the future role of the Taliban in Afghanistan?
Michael Fallon
I have discussed with President Ghani his approach to this. There are moderate elements in the Taliban, and it is important for the new Government to reach out to them whenever possible. That is the ambition of President Ghani who—rather differently from his predecessor—is open to that and to building more effective international alliances with his neighbours, including Pakistan, India and China. It is in everyone’s interest that Afghanistan has a stable future.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
We should be proud that millions of Afghan girls are now in school and that thousands of women are doctors, teachers and politicians, but Afghanistan remains one of the most dangerous places in the world to be a woman. Many women in public life there pay with their lives. In the light of such violence, it is unlikely that any peace process that excludes women will be sustainable, so, while I welcome the Secretary of State’s assertion that the London conference will consider women’s issues, may I ask him to go further? Will he make it his priority to ensure that women are not only represented but able to speak for themselves at the conference and at all future peace negotiations?
Michael Fallon
I will certainly bear that in mind as we finalise the agenda and programme for the London conference. I found, on my visits to Afghanistan, that women were becoming increasingly involved in the future of the country. It was noticeable at the first passing-out parade of the officer academy that there were female cadets training there—two platoons are training at the moment—and that, after I had spoken to the first battalion of cadets to graduate, I was followed by a female member of the Afghan Parliament who addressed them in far more rigorous and robust terms than I had done about their obligation to defend their country.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
I, like many other Members who have visited Afghanistan, have been protected and supported by British embassy staff in Kabul, so may I also express my deepest sympathy to the families and friends of those who have been killed in this morning’s tragic events? On that note, will the Secretary of State set out his plans for any national recognition or memorialisation of British civilians and civilian staff who have served, lost their lives or suffered injury in Afghanistan during the campaign? Also, on the issue of memorialising servicemen and women, has he issued any guidance to local authorities around the UK on how those who lost their lives in the campaign might best be memorialised locally, in addition to at the national memorials?
Michael Fallon
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his first comment. The tragic event in Kabul this morning is a reminder that this campaign has involved all kinds of people—civilian contractors, locally employed staff, and so on—in addition to the combat troops that we seconded. The intention is that the main London memorial will pay tribute to the memory of all those involved—everyone from the civil service staff in my Ministry all the way through to those who fought and those who supported those who fought. That will certainly include those who were employed on a civilian basis in Kabul. I will certainly look at his suggestion about encouraging local authorities to play their part in this memorialisation. I understand that some councils have already taken the decision to name particular streets after local heroes who lost their lives in the campaign. This is certainly something that we ought to encourage.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Many of the specialists involved in the successful withdrawal of heavy equipment from Afghanistan are from the 17th Port and Maritime Regiment of the Royal Logistic Corps based at Marchwood in my constituency, and I hope that the Secretary of State will take this opportunity to confirm that that military port facility will be neither run down nor degraded in any way.
On the question of the lessons of the campaign, it is a fact that there are al-Qaeda-type groups in many other countries, too, and we must develop a doctrine—based on strategic bases and bridgehead areas, as I have endeavoured to suggest on previous occasions—to enable us to tackle those groups without having to take on nation-building from the ground up in every country where they appear, because that is an impossible strategy and we need a flexible, sensible strategy for the future.
Michael Fallon
I note what my hon. Friend says about Marchwood, of which he has been a great champion. He does not need me to confirm the important role that it has played in the recovery of so much equipment, matériel and vehicles from Afghanistan. I can certainly confirm that we will have a continuing use for that kind of facility.
I also note what my hon. Friend says about the doctrine. We are seeing al-Qaeda in different forms in some countries, and we are seeing it mutate into ISIL. He makes the important point that the western nations are simply unable to reconstruct whole countries time and again.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I pay tribute, as everyone else does and should, to the sacrifice and the loss of service people in Afghanistan. May I ask the Secretary of State to be slightly more objective about the situation that the Afghan people are now facing? The levels of poverty are very serious, and large numbers of Afghan people are seeking refuge in other places because they feel that they can no longer live safely there. He indicated in answer to an earlier question that the new Afghan Government were going to undertake some kind of talks with the Taliban. One obviously hopes that that will bring about long-term peace and stability for the country, and that it will result in the recognition of the rights and role of women in society there. Does he not think, given the fact that British troops and many others have been there for 13 years, that the levels of poverty, drug production and corruption are very serious? Should we not be a bit more objective about what has happened, rather than being triumphalist about it?
Michael Fallon
I hope the House will agree that I have not been triumphalist about the campaign. I believe the campaign we fought, for which so many sacrificed their lives, was certainly worth while, but I am not triumphalist about it in the least. Afghanistan remains a relatively poor country and a place in which there is still great danger, as we have learned from this morning’s events. I hope the hon. Gentleman would acknowledge that Afghanistan is a more prosperous and safer place than it was 12 or 13 years ago, and that women have a better prospect now of fuller participation in civic life than they did 10 or 13 years ago. I have noted that the drugs trade remains an increasing and enduring challenge to the current Afghan Government, and, indeed, to the international community. He is right to say that we should not be triumphalist about this campaign, but, equally, he should recognise some of the progress that has been made.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
One fifth of the Royal Navy are in the Royal Marine Commandos and one quarter of Army personnel are in infantry regiments. At airfields, force protection is achieved using the admirable Royal Air Force Regiment. Those branches of our armed forces have taken by far the highest percentage of casualties in Afghanistan—I believe the figure is over 80% or over 90%—and it is always the same in any active operation. Only by using those combat soldiers, be they in Navy, RAF or Army uniform, who do the very dangerous business of closing with the enemy, are military conflicts normally brought to a satisfactory conclusion. They truly represent the very essence of the martial risks always run by our courageous service personnel. Does my right hon. Friend agree that in any future strategic defence and security review that recognition must be placed centre stage?
Michael Fallon
I wholly agree with my hon. Friend, who brings to the House his own military experience, and I am sure he will continue to press that point as we approach the strategic defence and security review next year. It is important to emphasise, as he did, that all three services—the Marines, the RAF and the Army—were heavily involved in this campaign, and it is slightly invidious to pick out any individual unit as this campaign was fought by the services. However, of course he is right to say that those in the front line have borne the heaviest burden of the combat.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I very much welcome the Defence Secretary’s statement and endorse everything he has said. The BBC documentary “The War Widows of Afghanistan” talks about the estimated 2 million war widows after decades of war. Some 13,000 Afghanistan soldiers are thought to have died. What support is being provided to those Afghan women who have lost their husbands?
Michael Fallon
My hon. Friend rightly draws attention to the heavy casualties taken by the rest of the Afghan population—of course, there were years of conflict before we even got to Afghanistan in 2001. The Afghan war widows are the responsibility of the new Afghan Government, but we will be working with that Government from next week’s London conference onwards. As I said earlier, the role and recognition of women in Afghan society will be a key part of that conference.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
Among those killed in Afghanistan were constituents of mine serving in the Royal Logistic Corps, the Yorkshire Regiment and the Royal Air Force Regiment. Will my right hon. Friend continue to make the case for our intervention in Afghanistan, to show that their sacrifice was not in vain? Will he also do all he can to keep the families and loved ones of those who made that sacrifice updated on the progress of the national memorial, which will be a fitting tribute to their sacrifice?
Michael Fallon
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who of course served in the armed forces. He makes a good point about keeping those who lost loved ones in the campaign and those who suffered injuries up to date with the progress on the memorial, and I certainly undertake to do that.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
Most of us agreed at the time with the initial deployment to rid the country of al-Qaeda, but what we tend to forget in this House is that that mission was accomplished within a couple of years. The mistake we made was then to allow the mission to morph into the much bigger one of nation building, something we did not properly resource. Given that—to use the Defence Secretary’s own words—the Taliban “remain a potent force”, may I draw him out a little and ask him what he thinks the key lessons are from this intervention?
Michael Fallon
I think I drew attention to the military lessons we can learn: these campaigns are best fought by local armies that have the support of the local population and have that inclusive support across tribal and political divides; these campaigns are waged best in conjunction with international partnerships, so that we learn and can operate each other’s equipment; and military action has to be supplemented with effective economic and political support alongside it. I certainly acknowledge that there is a great deal more to do in all three of those respects.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I thank the Secretary of State for coming to the House and keeping us so well informed, and I am also grateful for the responsible approach taken by the Opposition. May I, too, pay my personal tribute to the men and women who have served in Afghanistan? Looking back at the conflict, is the Secretary of State now satisfied that we had all the right equipment for our troops? In particular, did we have enough helicopters throughout the whole of the campaign?
Michael Fallon
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. I know that he, too, had close family involved in the campaign. I have been focused on dealing with the draw-down from Afghanistan and ensuring that we have the right remaining balance of force there for 2015-16. I have not had time to look back as to when and where the equipment was provided in the right order. As I said to the House, no decision has yet been taken on the nature of any inquiry, but it is important that where there are military lessons to be learned from the campaign we do learn them, and reasonably quickly.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
My right hon. Friend rightly said in his statement that the major legacy of our intervention is that terrorists have been prevented from using Afghanistan as a launch pad for attacks on our streets, and all involved are to be hugely commended for that terrific achievement. But what we have not been able to do is prevent the flow of drugs and the poppy growing, which ends up killing young people on our streets in this country. He rightly says that that represents a generational challenge to us, but may I urge him to attach a top priority, now that the security situation is as good as we could possibly have left it in Afghanistan, to concentrate our efforts on tackling the problem of opium production there? It should be made a top priority for both his Department and the Department for International Development.
Michael Fallon
I am happy to take on the commitment to relay what my hon. Friend has said to my right hon. Friend the International Development Secretary. My hon. Friend rightly says that the increase in poppy production is a threat, not simply to the stability of Afghanistan, but to the west and to the streets of our own countries. We therefore have every interest in helping the new Government face up to that particular challenge.
Point of Order
(10 years ago)
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Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am sure Members will have been as surprised as I was by media reports this morning that the US marine corps will be offered the use of HMS Queen Elizabeth for flight operations. That is because a bad decision, a change of decision and then indecision by the Government about the purchase of F-35Bs will leave British aircraft carriers with a gap of years before we have any aircraft to fly from them. Have you received any indication from the Defence Secretary as to whether he intends to offer the House an explanation about this hugely important issue?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
The hon. Gentleman is well aware that that is not a point of order for the Chair. However, the Defence Secretary is in his place and if he indicates to me that he wishes to make a point of order further to that point of order, which was not a point of order, I will of course invite him to do so.
The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon)
Perhaps I should not probe too hard as to whether this is now a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, but let me just make it very clear that the reports the shadow Defence Secretary has been reading are completely incorrect.
Backbench Business
Inequality
(10 years ago)
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Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House calls on the Government to set guideline targets for remuneration which over time reduce the ratio between top and bottom incomes in large organisations to no more than 50 to 1.
Even at this rather late hour, when the first debate would normally be drawing to a close, I am nevertheless grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for granting this debate on inequality—not least because the excesses of extreme inequality are increasingly seen as a serious, moral, economic and social problem, yet the issue has not received the attention in this House that it clearly deserves.
It is worth saying at the outset that concern over this matter is not the preserve of the political left. In this past month, Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of England, and Janet Yellen, the chair of the US Federal Reserve, have both argued that the enormous growth in inequality over the past few decades was not only wrong morally but was having increasingly baleful economic consequences. Then there were the strictures of Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, arguing that the current explosion of inequality was now acting as a brake on growth. They all say that inequality fosters fear, creates too much demand for credit to compensate for squeezed living standards, drives asset price bubbles, catalyses financial instability, and, by displacing too much risk on those who cannot bear it, undermines the legitimacy of capitalism.
The facts on ballooning inequality are broadly well understood. Official statistics show that average weekly pay in June this year was £477, while the average annual take-home remuneration among the FTSE 100 chief executives was £4.3 million, or £83,000 a week. The ratio between their remuneration and the remuneration of the average UK worker is therefore about 175:1. That needs to be put into perspective. In 1998, according to the High Pay Centre think-tank, a FTSE 100 boss was typically paid 47 times more than their workers. In other words, in just 16 years, the gap between top incomes and the average wage has nearly quadrupled. The obvious question then is: is all this justified? In fact, there is rather little correlation between the surge in executive remuneration and company performance; sometimes, there is even a negative correlation.
The director of the High Pay Centre, Deborah Hargreaves, explains the phenomenon. She says:
“The only reason why their pay has increased so rapidly compared to their employees is that they are able to get away with it.”
They are able to get away with it largely because of the structural divide in the way in which pay is determined in this country. For manual workers, it is by collective bargaining. That has dramatically declined in the past 30 years, leading to a very sharp fall in the share of wages in GDP from 65% to about 53%. For white-collar workers, it is by private contracts, which are laid down by the employers. But for chief executives in the boardroom, it is by remuneration committees, specifically chosen by the board itself, which largely operate on the principle of “you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours.” That is not a system that carries credibility across the whole spectrum of the work force.
One might even question why such elaborate devices are needed for top executives to secure a maximum uplift in pay, since one would have thought that £80,000 a week was far beyond what is necessary for the most comfortable lifestyle. Indeed, one could reduce a £2.5 million income by almost 95% and the recipient would still be in the top 1% of all earners in the UK. That is a staggering fact.
Are incomes 10 or 20 times more than the earnings of those already considered very, very rich strictly necessary? The only answer seems to be that these turbo-charged salaries have almost nothing to do with performance and everything to do with chief executive officers keeping up with each other in a status race. In other words, rather as in the end of the Victorian period, which we are getting closer to now, the very rich constantly demand yet more wealth to show it off in order to demonstrate where they stand in the pecking order.
Does that matter? The apologists for inequality have always traditionally argued that it does not because it does no harm to other people. Peter Mandelson notoriously argued that new Labour was
“intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich”.
But he did add
“as long as they pay their taxes.”
That was partly on the grounds that wealth would then trickle down to everyone else, but it has not trickled down; it has gushed up as if from a geyser. According to the Sunday Times rich list, the richest 1,000 persons in this country—just 0.003% of the adult population—have doubled their collective wealth in the six years since the crash, from a staggering £250 billion to more than £500 billion. Moreover, that does harm other people. It leads to smouldering resentment, which can at times explode if triggered by a sudden event, such as the five days of rioting after Mark Duggan was shot in August 2011. It undermines trust and solidarity and it weakens the social fabric of communities. Above all, it has been shown unequivocally by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett in “The Spirit Level” that across all countries—it is not just the UK—the greater the inequality, the greater the degree of social pathology in terms of homicide levels, crime and violence, mental illness, imprisonment, teenage pregnancies, obesity, maths and literary educational scores, life expectancy, infant mortality and many others.
It is not just the poor who suffer, although they certainly suffer the most; those impacts extend widely across the whole society. It is not just the social impacts of inequality that damage society, but the economic ones as well. It weakens aggregate demand, which is serious at times like the present when all the other potential sources of demand—Government expenditure, business investment and net exports—are negative.
Andy Haldane, the chief economist at the Bank of England, recently summed up the economic impacts of excessive inequality. He said that
“there is rising evidence that extreme inequality harms, durably and significantly, the stability of the financial system and growth in the economy. It slows development of the human, social and physical capital necessary for raising living standards and improving wellbeing. That penny is starting to drop among policymakers and politicians.”
I hope that his last comment was right.
What should be done? The terms of the motion suggest that the Government should set guidelines for remuneration that, over time, reduce the ratio between top and bottom incomes in large organisations to no more than 50:1. That would still allow top incomes to reach nearly £24,000 a week or £1.25 million a year. I think that that is justified on two grounds. First, in the period when capitalism flourished most in the UK—that is, the three decades after the war—the ratio was 40:1 or less. Secondly, the most successful dynamic economies with the highest long-term growth figures and the greatest social cohesion in the past 40 years—I am thinking of Japan up to the 1990s, the east Asian tiger economies, Sweden, Norway and Singapore, among others—all had a ratio of less than 50:1.
Of course, there are other ways of moving towards the same objective. The Business Secretary introduced new regulations that became operative this year, empowering shareholders with a binding veto over company executive pay policy. Despite his good intentions and the shareholder spring that peaked in 2012, that has not ever been called on, partly because the holdings and voting rights on pay are controlled by very wealthy fund managers and the work force have no say in the process at all. That suggests that the structure of incentives and pressures needs to be recalibrated.
I have already quoted Deborah Hargreaves’s remark that executive pay soars because they can get away with it. Corporate power and the greed and self-interest that go with it have increased dramatically over the past three decades and they are still increasing. That needs to be redressed. There are several measures that could help. One is the mandatory publication of company pay ratios, as is already operated by John Lewis, where the ratio is 75:1, and TSB bank, where it is 65:1. Another would be to strengthen the coverage of trade union collective bargaining, which has shrunk dramatically over the past 30 years from 82% to a wholly inadequate 23%.
A further measure would be to increase the prevalence of work force-wide profit sharing. In my view, the most effective mechanism would be the introduction in all large companies of what I would call an enterprise council, made up of representatives of all the main grades of employees and meeting at least once a year to open up the books, look at all the company’s activities, consider how failures could be corrected and performance improved, think about the financial implications of depreciation, investment, stock control, dividends and so on and then examine the bids for pay increases across the company over the next year. That would strengthen the cohesion and solidarity of the company, greatly improve morale and productivity and almost certainly enhance profitability. I commend that, and all the other measures I have proposed, to the House.
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) on securing the debate. It is extremely important that the House should consider the growing inequality in this country and specific measures that might be taken to reduce it.
I start by painting a picture of where we are with inequality, both nationally and in my constituency. We know that about 20% of working households rely on some form of tax credit, which shows that a great many people are in work but are relying on benefits because they are earning very low wages. That is compounded by gender. We know that since 2011, the gender gap in wages has been getting worse, not better. The gap between all women working and all men working is about 18.6%; for those who work full time, it is 14.9%. That means that women earn about 85p for every £1 that a man earns. That is important because although inequality affects large numbers of people across our work force, we must be clear that it affects women more than men.
We also know that 3.5 million children nationally are in poor households. That means that they are unable to afford adequate food or transport or to join in activities with their friends. That demonstrates the huge gap emerging between people at one end of the income spectrum and those who are increasing their wages at the other end. I experience that in my Durham constituency a great deal. Take-home pay in the north-east is less than it is in the rest of the country, so although we can give national figures about people relying on benefits, the problem is much greater in the north-east.
Changes to benefits have had an impact on areas like County Durham, where people are losing about £565 per working-age adult—money is going from people who are working and relying on top-up benefits—but the situation is also worsening for those who are out of work and relying on benefits. This is evidenced daily by the increasing number of people using food banks in my constituency. Indeed, some of the people who run the food bank in Durham talked to me recently about setting up a clothing bank and doing so locally, because they recognise that people sometimes cannot even afford to get to the charity shops in the city centre.
My contention is that a raft of measures need to be taken to reduce inequality. Before we look at them, however, perhaps we could stop for a moment and consider what has happened at the other end of the spectrum. The top 100 executives in the FTSE 100 companies took home as much as 131 times the amount their average employee did, yet only 15 of those companies have committed to pay their employees a living wage. Across the country, increasing numbers of companies pay the living wage, and we should stop and recognise that. There are some really good examples—a number of our universities pay the living wage, as does John Lewis—but trying to dig around and find them is difficult. We should have a list readily available. We need to consider what measures could be taken to reduce the income gap, and why we should do so.
Early in the lifetime of this Government, the Prime Minister was keen on looking at measures of happiness. He wanted us to be able to assess what leads to happiness; perhaps he thought that if we had information on that, it would cheer us all up and we would not spend so much time worrying about austerity. I do not know what has happened to all that work, but we do know that people who live in countries where there is more equality are happier. I want to give some advice to the Prime Minister and his colleagues this afternoon: if he wants to make people more content with their life, he and his Government need to address the growing inequality by insisting that companies adopt the living wage and that we get away from a low-pay, low-quality job economy.
Of course, in any economy we need people to work in the service sector. These are important jobs, but we want a much greater variety of jobs, especially high-value ones requiring higher skills. We need to see a real Government programme to support job creation of that type. That is in great contrast to what is available. In preparing for today’s debate, I looked at the jobs available today on my local Jobcentre website in Durham and the levels of income that they offer. The figures are truly shocking. So many of the jobs available do not even pay the living wage. Indeed, about three quarters pay less than the living wage, with about half paying the minimum wage. The jobs available cover everything from care co-ordinators to receptionists and night care assistants. I think we would all regard a senior night care assistant as an important role with significant responsibilities. The job advertised paid £7.35 an hour. These are simply wages that people are not able to live on, which is why so many people rely on in-work benefits.
We need to challenge our employers in a way that we have not done to date. Why do they think they can take home thousands of pounds a month while not paying the majority of their employees the living wage? I do not know about other hon. Members, but I do not want to live in a country that has such growing inequality. I do not want to live in a country where more and more people cannot afford basic rent. Shelter recently published research that showed that 1 million people took out payday loans just to cover their rent. This is clearly ridiculous in a country such as ours that can do so much better.
This afternoon we are challenging the Government to do more to get employers to pay not only the minimum wage—which they have to do, although some still seem to try to get out of their responsibilities—but a living wage. What do the Government intend to do to encourage the creation of jobs with higher-level skills that pay more and can take us forward to a knowledge-based economy? I also want the Government to challenge the companies that pay huge bonuses and whose directors take home obscene amounts of money to plough more resources into their businesses so that they can be successful and pay a living wage.
Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) on securing what has been a short but perfectly formed debate, and the Backbench Business Committee on agreeing to it. He is right to point out that inequality is one of the most pressing issues facing our economy and society. It is clear that the economy does not work for many working people. Galloping advances in executive pay and real-terms pay cuts for most people in work does not suggest an economic model that is performing well or efficiently or providing the greatest benefits to the greatest number of people.
My right hon. Friend mentioned that for the past 30 years or so the prevailing model has been the shareholder value model, which was supposed to maximise returns to the shareholder. The argument goes that if there is an alignment between the interests of shareholders and executives, perhaps in the form of share option incentive plans, executives would act in the interests of the owners of the company. Evidence shows that that theory has been found wanting. Directors of large companies are often remunerated far in excess of the performance of the company that they lead or the extent to which they have created value for the firm’s stakeholders.
Don’t get me wrong: leading a company requires enormous skill and judgment, and those men and women—sadly, it is still predominantly men—should be rewarded for bringing such skill and judgment to bear. If that skill results in a company being transformed and improving beyond the norm, that should be recognised and appropriately remunerated; and as my right hon. Friend eloquently said, for all the talk of aligning shareholder and executive interests, ironically, executives have been extracting value from large companies for themselves at the expense of the company, its shareholders, its work force and ultimately its society. Let me illustrate this point.
In 1980, the median pay of directors in FTSE 100 companies was £63,000. At the time, median pay across the country was £5,400. In 2010, the median pay of directors in FTSE 100 companies was £2.99 million, while median wages for the rest of the country was £25,900. That meant that the ratio of executive wages to the average wage moved over a generation—30 years—from 11:1 to 116:1. And it is not getting any better, despite the recession, and despite stagnating economic activity.
The High Pay Centre revealed earlier this year that FTSE 100 chief executives received remuneration worth 143 times the average wage. This single fact encapsulates everything that is wrong. It takes a chief executive three days to receive what a worker on average wages earns in a year. That is at a time when there is an explosion in zero-hours contracts and greater insecurity at work for many people. Incomes are lower on average now than they were a decade ago, and the worst off and the lowest paid have seen the biggest falls, leading to a rise in in-work poverty that we have not seen in this country for decades.
I pay tribute to my fellow north-east MP, my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods), who made a passionate speech and is well versed in the problems of her constituency. She will know that figures derived from the Northern TUC show that our region has a particular problem in relation to low pay. In Hartlepool more than half of women working part time are paid below the living wage. She also mentioned the impact of spending cuts on general demand in a local economy. The north-east has borne the brunt of that. In Hartlepool we have lost £680 per household as a result of the austerity measures. That money has been taken away from the economy, exacerbating inequality in this country. We did not have a food bank in Hartlepool in 2010. We do now.
One in five workers in this country—some 5.2 million employees—are not paid the living wage. That has increased from 3.4 million workers in 2009. The UK has the second highest rate of low pay in the OECD, and lower levels of productivity than our main competitors. All this provides a compelling argument that inequality is not producing a more resilient or a more competitive economy. It is clear, as I said, that the economy does not work for most people. As my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham said, we will succeed in the global economy only if these issues are tackled and if we address low pay and poor productivity, and work to ensure a more equitable distribution of wages.
My right hon. Friend mentioned an important point—perhaps all this would be excusable if a growing gulf between average pay and executive remuneration reflected superior company performance. The argument goes that talent on this scale, which is often global in its outlook, requires a premium in remuneration. Superstar pay packages attract super talent, which in turn incentivises superstellar performances. I have never quite understood, though, how executives are expected to be motivated to work harder by means of ever escalating pay, but workers on average and low earnings are supposed to be motivated by greater insecurity and no pay increases at all. But the evidence suggests that there is no correlation between executive pay and company performance—quite the reverse.
An article by Michael Cooper, Huseyin Gulen and Raghavendra Rau concluded that firms that pay their chief executive officer a sum within the top 10% of pay earn negative returns of –13% over the next five years. Throughout the whole of 2014, the FTSE 100 has fallen in value by 0.02%, even though executive pay has risen. The model of aligning executive pay with shareholder returns is broken, and the executives are the ones who are benefiting at the expense of others.
There appears to be a correlation between unequal and disproportionate reward at the top and inefficient and dysfunctional performance by the organisation. Far from securing star performers who can transform an organisation and motivate their work force, the more a firm’s executive pay exceeds the average in that company, the higher the rates of industrial action, staff turnover and work-related stress in that company. The evidence suggests that inequality is a disincentive to success, hard work and loyalty, as workers feel resentful that bosses at the top are not earning their remuneration. That breeds discontent, lower productivity and ultimately inferior company performance.
It is important that there is increased transparency and scrutiny in this area. I appreciate that the Government have made some progress in the past couple of years with its reforms of corporate governance and executive remuneration, but I think the Minister would agree that more needs to be done. That is why we believe that large firms should publish the ratio between the pay of their highest earner and that of the average employee in the organisation. I believe that is Liberal Democrat policy, and I hope the Minister will confirm that and say that it will be Government policy.
We believe that employees should be members of remuneration committees, ensuring that the voice of the workplace is heard when executive pay is set. We would reintroduce the 50p rate of income tax for the highest earners. We would raise the minimum wage to £8 an hour by 2020, bringing that rate closer to average earnings.
John Maynard Keynes said:
“The businessman is only tolerable so long as his gains can be held to bear some relation to what, roughly and in some sense, his activities have contributed to society.”
This debate has shown, as has evidence collated over the past 30 years, that those gains are often far in excess of what those activities have contributed to society and to those executives’ companies. A more unequal society results in a less productive economy. We in this House should resolve to change that.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) on securing this debate. I am grateful that we have the opportunity to discuss this important matter, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allocating the time. On many aspects there is substantial agreement across the House.
The right hon. Gentleman was right to say that concern about the issue is not the preserve of the political left. The Government—not just my party, but my coalition partners—have understood that concern. The very concept of rewarding failure shows that markets are not working as they should. From every political perspective, we want to make sure that people are properly rewarded for doing well and are not rewarded for failure.
There is concern that levels of directors’ pay have ratcheted upwards. At the same time the link to company performance and wages at other levels in the company has grown much weaker. That is damaging to the long-term interests of business and it is right that we are acting to address this market failure. That is why we have taken decisive action to restore the link between top pay and performance in UK public companies.
The reforms that we introduced, which came into force last October, create a more robust framework for the setting and reporting of directors’ pay. They have boosted transparency so that what people are paid is clear and easily understood, and have empowered shareholders to hold companies to account through binding votes. They restore a stronger, clearer link between pay and performance, and address the important issue of rewards for failure. Our reforms require companies to report the ratio of average percentage change in employee pay compared with the percentage change in the chief executive’s pay, allowing shareholders to understand whether pay increases apply proportionately to all employees or only to those at the top. They also mean that companies must report on how the pay and conditions of employees informs the remuneration policy for directors, whether they have sought the views of their work force, and how the work force was consulted.
During the debate concern has been expressed about the pay ratio galloping ahead and hugely increasing. Although I recognise those concerns, it is important to set some of the figures in context. The hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) mentioned a ratio of 143:1, which I believe is from a report from the High Pay Centre back in August. It is worth noting that subsequent to the initial release of that figure, the High Pay Centre and The Guardian, which had reported it, had to retract the figure because it was found to be a miscalculation. The figure suggested now is 130:1. Another research organisation, Manifest, has suggested that it is 121:1, compared to a peak of 151:1 in 2007. I am not for a moment saying that that is a level that many people would find acceptable, but the trend is not going ever upwards. There seems to have been a peak in 2007 and the ratio is now falling, which I hope hon. Members will recognise and welcome.
Mr Iain Wright
I am glad the Minister has put that clarification on the record. She is galloping away somewhat, rather like executive pay over the past 30 years. May I bring her back to the Government’s reforms? In respect of binding votes, how many companies have had to change their pay policy as a result of shareholders voting against it?
Jo Swinson
I will talk about the particular reforms in a moment. There are two ways in which the Government’s reforms can have an impact on executive pay and, therefore, company behaviour when agreeing directors’ remuneration. One way, obviously, is to have a binding vote that a company could lose, and as a result the pay policy would not go forward. The other way—it is an important one—is that companies, because they know they will face a binding vote on executive pay, will be incentivised to have more detailed discussions with investors and shareholders in advance of the annual general meeting. I would not want us to get into a situation in which we thought that it was only if lots of votes were won that the reforms were not successful, when actually it might be a sign that there is much more engagement, which in itself would be a sign of success.
Mr Meacher
Does the Minister accept that, despite the good intentions of the Business Secretary’s reforms, the fact that they have not actually been exercised suggests that we need to go significantly further and that that is probably because of the excessive influence of very wealthy fund managers and, in particular, because the work force has no say at all? Does she believe that the work force should have some say in executive pay?
Jo Swinson
I certainly think that the points the right hon. Gentleman made about involving the work force are important. That is why our reforms require that it be set out how employees have been involved and consulted. It is not a prescriptive approach, but it requires that to be taken into consideration. Indeed, the Government have tried in other ways to influence corporate governance. For example, the work we have done on employee ownership has supported different types of ownership and engagement models, through various changes to the tax system and the provision of materials on how to make it easier for companies to convert to employee ownership models, so that employees can be much more involved in the running of their companies. We know that that can have real business benefits, because employees buy much more into the success of the company. That also starts to deal with some of the productivity issues that the hon. Member for Hartlepool mentioned.
Mr Wright
The Minister is making a very important point, and I really agree about the need to ensure that employees have a say in the running of their businesses, because that improves the value of those companies. Could that be formulated within corporate governance? Does she agree with the notion of having employees on remuneration committees?
Jo Swinson
I think there is a difference between recognising and supporting business benefits, and prescribing in legislation or regulation exactly how companies should go about doing that. There is a lot of agreement on the advantages for companies, but I do not think there is much agreement with the idea that the best way is for the Government to be very prescriptive, stating, “This is exactly what companies must do, and this is the only way to do it.” There are different ways in which companies can achieve that level of engagement successfully. It might be through employee representation on the board or remuneration committee, but there are other ways in which that can be done. We should enable companies to find the way that works best for them.
We are monitoring the impact of the reforms we are undertaking in the context of the 2014 reporting and annual general meeting season. We want to understand how companies have interpreted and applied the regulations, what trends can be observed in the remuneration packages that have been put forward and how shareholders have responded. We intend to publish the key findings from that work shortly, along with any policy conclusions that flow from them. We have always said that the policy will remain under review, because we want to see how what we have implemented works in practice.
Of course, it is useful for the Government to take on board and consider interesting proposals made in the House, in the context of looking at how our reforms are actually working. We know from the evidence already available that companies are increasingly responding to shareholder expectations on remuneration. There are positive signs of restraint on levels of directors’ pay and a substantial number of companies have simplified their remuneration policy, linking it much more closely to measurable performance over longer periods of time—that is crucial—to try to get away from the short-termism culture.
There have been reports in the media about rising pay, but often they reflect the impact of previously agreed pay awards. What matters most in assessing the impact of the reforms is what pay is being awarded under the new regime. The latest evidence shows that the median total remuneration awarded to FTSE 100 CEOs fell by 5% in 2012 and by a further 7% in 2013. Some 35% of those CEOs and 30% of the executive directors did not receive a salary increase at all last year. The median salary increase for FTSE 100 executive directors overall was 2.5%. Only 16% of companies gave their directors a salary increase of more than 3%; in the previous year that figure was 25%. The trend shows that pay is coming down, but obviously we will want to look at all the evidence that comes forward before publishing those findings and having a clearer picture.
The right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton talked about the importance of engaging investors in the process. That ties in closely with the work my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary is doing on long-termism, particularly the Kay review, because investment funds, pension funds and so on have a crucial role to play as active investors. Important campaigning bodies have certainly achieved some success in getting much more engagement from those investors, so that they can properly hold to account the decisions on pay.
On the specifics of pay ratios, overall ratios certainly give us a picture of how things are across the economy, but I suggest a degree of caution about using a ratio between the top and the bottom for paid employees within a company. We considered that very carefully when we introduced the reforms. We decided not to mandate that ratio, as set out in the motion. Transparency is welcome, but we have to guard against potentially misleading information when that is broken down between the top and the bottom.
Obviously, that will depend on what sector the company is operating in and the type of staff working for it. For example, a large investment bank that outsources all its unskilled work could end up having quite a low ratio for pay between the top and the bottom, but a large retailer with a large number of relatively unskilled employees would have a much bigger ratio. The retailer could none the less be paying above the living wage and treating its employees pretty well. It might look as though it is the investment bank that should be polishing its halo, but perhaps that is because it outsources its unskilled work to be done in less favourable conditions. Therefore, we have to be slightly careful about unintended consequences, because some factors could mask what is actually happening. Comparing top and median pay might give a more realistic and meaningful figure. The hon. Member for Hartlepool is right to point out the Liberal Democrat policy in that area—he is undoubtedly an avid reader of Liberal Democrat policy documents, as I encourage all hon. Members to be.
The hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) raised a number of issues that are very important as part of the discussion on inequality and pay policy, particularly the pay gap for women. At the end of last week we heard the positive news that the pay gap is closing. However, we need to be cautious about celebrating that too much when we still have such a significant pay gap. Let us welcome the fact that it is being reduced, but also recognise that our aim has to be to eliminate it.
The hon. Lady’s concerns about part-time work are also important. There is far too much stigma within the workplace about how valuable somebody can be if they work part time. Very important work is being done by organisations such as Timewise to highlight the fact that people in very senior roles can work part time and do their jobs perfectly successfully, so we should be able to deal with some of those issues.
The hon. Lady also mentioned the living wage. We obviously have the national minimum wage, which is a floor, or a basic standard. Of course, this year we saw the first above-inflation rise in the national minimum wage since 2007, which is very welcome. That gives full-time workers a £355 increase each year. We want that to continue, if possible, without negatively impacting on employment. My right hon. Friend the Business Secretary has asked the Low Pay Commission to look at considering above-inflation rises in the national minimum wage, and we hope that, with a growing economy, that can be sustained. Of course, at the same time we have focused on helping people on low pay by cutting income tax by £800 a year, taking 3.2 million people on the national minimum wage out of paying income tax. We have done a significant amount, but we want to continue by encouraging employers to pay above the national minimum wage and to recognise that it is a minimum. Very profitable and successful companies should recognise their responsibilities to their employees, which might mean that they should be paying more. I welcome the fact that many employers are now turning into a positive the fact that they pay more than the minimum wage and badge themselves as a living wage employer. Of course, they will then be able better to compete for talented staff and get business benefits.
The hon. Lady is right about happiness and well-being. In 2010, the Prime Minister said that the Office for National Statistics would be collecting data on well-being and happiness. That was not met with universal acclaim in some sections of the press. I seem to recall that the Daily Mail was not necessarily delighted by the suggestion. I, for one, was delighted, having set up the all-party group on well-being economics and long campaigned for the importance of recognising that people, yes, care about their income and the size of the economy, but also care about the health and happiness of themselves and their loved ones. The more we recognise that in our policy making and in what we measure, the better.
The hon. Lady said that she did not know what had happened to that work, so I will update her. The ONS has been collecting the information, and about 250,000 people a year are questioned. As a result, a rich databank is being built up that can be broken down in interesting ways across different geographical areas, and between men and women and different age groups, so as to be able to assess the impact of policies and see what is happening in different parts of the country in different groups.
We recently announced the setting up of a “what works centre”—a research think-tank that the Government are supporting to analyse how different policies impact on well-being. From a BIS perspective, one of the key strands of this work is about well-being in the labour market and the workplace and what drives it. We recently published research that we have undertaken on that. A range of factors impact on workplace well-being. Obviously, pay is one, but there are also things such as the variety in someone’s job, whether they feel that they get to use their skills, whether they have a degree of autonomy, how they go about their job, and their sense of fairness in the workplace, which very much ties into this debate. I am glad to say that very many businesses are also engaged in this agenda and recognise that continuing to engage with the well-being of employees leads to better business performance.
We recognise that this is a very significant issue, and we have taken action. We do not want to see rewards for failure. A ratio cap as set out in the motion could, in its purest sense, have unintended and perverse consequences. Early signs of the response to our executive pay reforms are encouraging, and we will review their impact and publish the findings. We will continue to work to ensure that pay policies become fairer, and also support low-paid workers by cutting income tax. I know that we will return to this topic in the House. I thank the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton and the Backbench Business Committee for giving us the opportunity to discuss it today.
Mr Meacher
This has inevitably been a rather short and truncated debate, but a useful one for all that. I think it fair to say that there is broad cross-party agreement that inequality is now out of control and further action needs to be taken. My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) made the essential point that an increase in the ratio between top and bottom from 11:1 to 116:1, within one generation, cannot remotely be justified in terms of the performance of the British economy.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) for making important points about the raft of measures that are still necessary to deal with poverty, including tax credits to deal with in-work poverty; the continuing unfair span of gender inequality; the need for the Government to press the issue of the living wage—some companies are paying it but far too many still are not—and the need, above all, to shift away from a low-pay, low-skills and low-productivity economy to a high-pay, high-skills and high-productivity economy.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool for observing that the relationship between executive pay and company performance does not justify these excesses and cannot remotely do so, that the voice of workers needs to be directly involved in the determination of pay, and that we do not currently have a productive economy to the degree that we need and that is clearly possible both socially and economically.
I am grateful to the Minister for her, as always, positive and bubbly tone, but I realise that she cannot go beyond her brief. I hope that if there is one lesson she will take to her right hon. Friend the Business Secretary, it is that he has to move from the action that he has already taken, which is valuable, to direct involvement of workers in executive pay. If we can get that message across, this debate has been worth it. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. It is reported in The Independent today that John Vine, the Government’s independent chief inspector of borders and immigration, has written to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee expressing concern that the Home Secretary has been intervening to delay and manipulate the publication of inconvenient reports on the Government’s immigration and asylum policy, and compromising the independence of his role. Given today’s news of the continuing mess that the Government’s immigration policy is in, have you, Madam Deputy Speaker, had any indication that the Home Secretary will be making a statement to the House on this matter?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)
I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order. I have to say—I am sure she will be a bit disappointed—that today’s business is not a matter of order for me, and I have not received any such notification. However, I am sure that those on the Treasury Bench have heard her point, which is now on the record.
Historical Child Sex Abuse
(10 years ago)
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Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)
Before we move on to the debate, let me say to the House that this is an important debate dealing with matters that have horrified Members in all parts of the House and people across the country. No doubt Members will wish to express those concerns in strong terms, but I must remind the House of two points. First, Members need to avoid reference to cases that are active before the courts. The sub judice resolution agreed by the House is designed to ensure that what is said in the House does not prejudice fair trials and, where merited, successful prosecutions. It is important that we respect that. In cases of doubt about the status of a case, I would advise Members to err on the side of caution.
Secondly, even if the matters are not active before the courts, I would caution Members to think carefully about the impact of their words before making critical references to individuals. Freedom of speech is essential for the work of this House and to allow us to represent our constituents without fear of outside interference, but it is an obligation on all Members to exercise that privilege responsibly. I am sure that all Members taking part are fully aware of those two points, but I think that as we start this very important debate, we do well to remind ourselves of its context.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered progress of the historic child sex abuse inquiry.
I thank the Backbench Business Committee for giving the subject of the historical child abuse inquiry so much prominence and time.
I would like to celebrate the campaign of the National Association for People Abused in Childhood, which has, first, given a voice to the voiceless; secondly, stimulated the media to act; thirdly, engaged many hon. Members in this place; fourthly, shone a light on a dirty secret and made child abuse more unacceptable than ever before; and fifthly, and probably most importantly, is now resulting in many perpetrators being arrested and dead perpetrators rightly being shamed.
I think we can all agree that this subject is both diverse and full of detail, and it would not be difficult to speak for quite a long time. I hope that hon. Members will bear with me, because although I do not usually take up too much time in this place, on this occasion I would like some time to develop some important points. First and not least, I want to set out how we have got to where we are today; secondly, I want to talk about—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman, who is quite right about the time he usually takes, that the normal expectation for opening speeches in all Back-Bench debates is 15 to 20 minutes. That is much longer than he usually speaks for, so I am sure he will be able to put his points very eloquently within that time.
Simon Danczuk
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Let me start with William’s story. I have changed his name to protect his identity. He is in his late 50s and his wife does not know that he was abused. He believes it would ruin his relationship if she found out. You could not wish to meet a more polite, intelligent and endearing gentleman. He does not look like a gentleman: he has tattoos, his face and skin are weathered, and he is quite dishevelled. William came to see me four months ago to tell me what had happened to him as a child. In 1970, he had been placed in Knowl View residential school in Rochdale, a place for youngsters with behavioural problems. The initial ethos was caring and supportive: the hitting of children was frowned upon and children were to be listened to.
As William pointed out to me, that ethos did not last very long. Within weeks of him arriving, he was being abused, both by teachers and by fellow pupils. Physical and sexual abuse was meted out on a daily basis. From the age of 13, he was bullied and abused, both physically and sexually. Sobbing, he explained to me how he was pleased when a younger boy who was more attractive was placed in the school, because that child became the focus of attention. One day, Cyril Smith tried it on with him, but one of the good teachers saved him. Obviously, at the time, William did not know that Smith was part of a paedophile network operating at the school. It was just one of the networks to which Smith would belong in his long paedophilic career.
William eventually escaped by running away and he has spent the rest of his life working on fairgrounds, an articulate, smart lad whose life chances were limited by his abusers. Needless to say, he is sad and wants justice. Only time will tell whether Greater Manchester police will deliver that for him.
Let me turn to John, who came to my office a few months ago. He suffered a similar fate at Knowl View school. He attacked one of his abusers and ended up going to prison. Years later, he sat in my office seeking help to find accommodation because he was homeless. Abuse had destroyed John’s life.
It is for those people—William and John—that we are here today. They are the survivors. As children, they suffered horrendous abuse. Now, as adults, they are determined to share their stories and bring the abusers to justice.
That desire to get to the truth about child abuse, however, has not been universally shared. We now know that from at least the 1970s up to the present day, there have been not only people in positions of power who have sexually abused children, but powerful people willing to cover up that abuse and obstruct justice. People were more concerned about their own careers and protecting the system than they were about the lives that were being shattered. From the systematic abuse by Jimmy Savile, which has been well documented, to the continual abuse committed by Cyril Smith, which Matt Baker and I have detailed, it is clear that there was a culture of acceptance of child sex abuse by the powerful and well connected.
Amazingly, that attitude seems to have been well known at the time. Indeed, I was recently shown an episode of “Spitting Image” that was produced and aired in June 1987. The sketch mocks Conservative youth unemployment policy by joking that the Government had been very good at
“getting to grips with youngsters”
through their “rent boy scheme” The joke was on the Conservative policy, but it was also on the boys who were raped and abused by politicians.
In addition, we have seen the shocking spectacle of a former Whip, Tim Fortescue, openly telling the BBC that the Whips in the 1970s would help MPs to cover up scandals, including incidents with small boys. It seems that the culture of child abuse around politics was an open secret, yet nothing was done and children continued to be abused.
This problem was not confined just to politics and broadcasters. There are many instances, which I and others have documented, of the police ignoring child sex abuse. Let us not forget that this is the agency charged with keeping children safe, yet there was systematic ignorance by the police of the abuse that was going on.
During my own investigation, Cyril Smith was found to be the subject of multiple police investigations, all of which were dropped. There are many examples of retired police officers offering powerful testimony to me and my staff about past investigations of child abuse. They were shut down once it was apparent that high-profile politicians and other establishment figures were involved. They include Operation Circus, which focused on what was known as the Piccadilly Circus “meat rack”, where men would pick up adolescent boys for sex. Cyril Smith was among the powerful politicians spotted here taking boys back to a flat in north London. Questions must be asked about why those investigations did not continue.
Last Sunday, events took an even more sinister turn and there were allegations that sexually abused children had been murdered and that they involved people with a connection to this House. As shocking as those claims are, I am wholly convinced that we should take them seriously. When responding to the Wanless and Whittam review of missing files at the Home Office, the Prime Minister described those who believed in child abuse cover-ups as “conspiracy theorists”. My view is that those comments were extremely insensitive and I think he will regret them in the months and years ahead. I have to admit that some of the claims that sometimes surround child abuse in that period can seem extreme, but from what I have seen and heard it is not hard to conclude that there was a paedophile network at Westminster during that period. The network organised child abuse and conspired to protect each of its members from exposure. Cyril Smith was certainly a part of it.
Earlier this year, I told the Home Affairs Committee that a dossier containing allegations about child abuse by politicians had been handed by Tory MP Geoffrey Dickens to the then Home Secretary Leon Brittan. That revelation helped lead to the Wanless and Whittam review and to the establishment of the overarching inquiry, but not everybody was pleased with the idea that I might challenge Lord Brittan. The night before my appearance before the Committee, I had an encounter with the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier). After the 10 pm vote, he drew me to one side outside the Chamber and warned me to think very carefully about what I was going to say the following day. He told me that challenging Lord Brittan on child abuse would not be a wise move and that I might even be responsible for his death, as he was unwell.
I understand that people are cautious about naming parliamentarians, but I think that people who might know about child abuse allegations should answer questions, whatever their position. We should not shy away from that.
I move on to the inquiry itself. It is fair to say that we are in a bit of a mess. First of all, I want to make it clear that I do not necessarily blame the Government or, indeed, the Home Office, but it is clear that mistakes have been made. What the Home Office permanent secretary told the Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday is quite revealing. He said that the Home Office had not appreciated the emotional nature of the inquiry when setting it up and appointing the chair. I was pleased to hear the permanent secretary say that this is now one of the top three priorities for the Home Office.
I do not want to dwell too long on false starts and the progress that still needs to be made. Too much time has been lost already. On the chair, however, I understand that the Home Office is now considering 100 names. Clearly, the process will not be quick and I do not think it should be rushed, but we need to get the right person in place. To do that, it is clear that we need more scrutiny and transparency of the appointment process. I am still confused and disturbed by the role of the Home Office in drafting the letter from Fiona Woolf to the Home Secretary. On the new chairperson, it is important for the Home Office not to have any involvement in any letter to or agreement with the Home Secretary—it should stay well out of it.
It is now clear that we cannot have another chair with significant links to people who might be investigated in the course of this inquiry. I am pleased that the permanent secretary has said that they are looking “further afield” and considering people from outside a narrow Westminster circle.
The other thing that is clear is that there needs to be a much greater role for survivors. I started my speech with two stories about survivors, to remind the House that this inquiry should always be focused on them. I am sure that meeting groups and representatives will redouble the Home Secretary’s efforts to make sure that the inquiry gets to the truth. It is not enough, however, simply to meet survivors—the Home Office needs to listen to them, too. For example, I understand that at a recent meeting with the Home Secretary, there was a vote on whether the inquiry should be a statutory one. I am given to understand that the vote was unanimously in favour. May I ask the Minister whether these views are really being taken on board?
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)
On the question of having a statutory inquiry, I take it that the hon. Gentleman means an inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005. We had considerable experience of trying to get such an inquiry on Mid Staffordshire: I had to campaign almost unimaginably hard to get one under the 2005 Act. The reason for having one is simply that evidence can be given on oath and there can be a proper inquiry; anything less would simply not be adequate. Indeed, the Attorney-General will need in some way to be brought in to ensure that the very important people who might be involved in all the investigations are aware that the inquiry is being undertaken at that level.
Simon Danczuk
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his valuable intervention, which should inform the inquiry and its work.
I know that the new chair of the inquiry, when eventually appointed, will have some scope to alter the terms of reference. It is especially important to concentrate on the geographical scope. If I have learned one thing from studying child abuse networks, it is that there are lots of connections that are difficult to spot or to understand. I am worried that drawing arbitrary boundaries that stop us from looking at Scotland and Northern Ireland might prevent some connections from being made and some lessons from being learned. In Northern Ireland, I am particularly thinking of Kincora boys’ home and the alleged involvement of the security services. I want the new chair to consider the geography of the terms of reference.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
One of my concerns is that I am confused about the relationship between the new inquiry that my hon. Friend is speaking about and the inquiries currently under way, such as the Macur review of the Waterhouse inquiry. Can my hon. Friend enlighten me about that relationship?
Simon Danczuk
The short answer is no, because the terms of reference are very brief and not very detailed. We need to be given more of an understanding about that relationship. The idea is for the inquiry to bring all such investigations together, but we still need to be told how that will work in practice.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
On the issue raised by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), surely the point is that we are talking about an overarching inquiry—it is not a prosecution, or an investigation into criminal activities to bring somebody to justice now—whereas the other inquiries, reviews and investigations that are going on might just deliver that, but will do so in parallel to this inquiry. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Simon Danczuk
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, which has shone some light on the questions that need to be answered.
For every person who commits child abuse, very many people are complicit in that abuse or know information that could help, and it is absolutely vital that those people—they could be civil servants, cab drivers or even neighbours—come forward. More significantly, a large number of police officers, both retired and serving, have information to give. We simply need to get the full picture, and to get those people to speak at the inquiry. The Home Secretary must ensure that there is a full amnesty for any officer, so that they are not worried about the Official Secrets Act or their pensions.
We must make sure that we create the best possible conditions in which survivors can come forward and speak to the inquiry. I know how hard that will be for many of them. I have spoken to many survivors who have been silent for decades, and they are struggling to come to terms with what happened to them. That can be a hugely painful and traumatic experience. We need to provide full support and access to therapies that might be required by those people. We have failed them once, and we must not do so again.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
I apologise for not being in the Chamber for the start of the hon. Gentleman’s speech.
On the issue of support, what is the hon. Gentleman’s view of the financial implications of what he is saying? It seems to me that there is a need for money to support counselling services across this whole area. Will he say what money might be needed for the survivors in relation to the inquiry?
Simon Danczuk
I have made no calculation of what the cost might be of therapies or support for the survivors, but it is minuscule in comparison with the damage done to them. I have no doubt that the Home Office will consider the point that the hon. Gentleman has made.
Another group of people should come forward to the inquiry—the perpetrators of child abuse. To those people, I would say: “I urge you to think about the people you have abused, and to think about your victims. Damaged as children, they continue to suffer now, well into their adult lives. You have inflicted untold misery on them and their families. In many cases, what you did has made it impossible for them to live normal lives. Now they must suffer again by coming forward and speaking about what you did to them. They will have tried desperately to bury the memories of abuse, but they will now have to drag them back into the light. They will have to relive that trauma. But you can spare them some of that suffering. You can come forward and admit your guilt. If you admit what you have done, some of that pain can be saved, and some people can begin to rebuild their lives. So I say again: as a perpetrator of these crimes, you must come forward to the inquiry and take responsibility for what you have done. You can never undo the wrong, but you can at least prevent further agony.”
So far, my speech has focused on the historical aspects of child abuse, but the grim reality is that child abuse is a fact of life for hundreds of children in modern Britain. In places such as Rochdale, Rotherham, Oxford and Telford, children are still being abused. This is not a thing of the past; this is happening to our children in our towns now.
We know from the Jay report on Rotherham that there were more than 1,400 victims over a six-year period in just one town. The Communities and Local Government Committee, on which I sit, conducted an inquiry into Rotherham, and our findings were worrying. The same failures and bad practices that allowed children to be abused in Rotherham are common across local government areas. Rotherham is simply the tip of the iceberg. We are yet to discover the true horrific extent of child abuse in this country. When it is revealed, nobody will be in any doubt that this is one of the most appalling crimes of our times.
In these circumstances, it is vital that the police get to grips with the issue and that resources are made available to solve abuse cases and catch the abusers. I am not convinced that that is happening. I have spoken to serving Met police officers, and they have described in graphic detail abuse crimes that are being committed, but are being ignored. I have the same concerns with regard to Greater Manchester police, my local force.
Victims have been ignored by the police because they were poor, white, working-class kids. Police and social workers have insulted them and left them to be abused. The survivors—often as young as 11—were accused of making lifestyle choices. The attitude in one agency was so warped that when an abuser got a young victim pregnant for the second time, the social worker insisted that the rapist, who was married with a family of his own, should attend the antenatal classes. I am still struggling to believe that such a culture could exist in our public services. As a result of that culture, the police failed to arrest rapists, who moved on to new victims year in, year out, and the perpetrators’ confidence was bolstered so that they thought they were untouchable.
My own town of Rochdale has also suffered from this crime. Not only did Cyril Smith and others abuse children in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, but we had the Rochdale grooming scandal just a few years ago. It does not stop there. Yesterday, eight men were arrested across Rochdale, Oldham and Manchester, accused of grooming three children—one was 15, and two were just 13—in our town. I am glad that the police are acting and making arrests, but it is shocking that after all the town has been through, people are still out there trying to sexually abuse children on our streets. In this case, the abuse is alleged to have occurred between September and October this year, so the accusation is that at the very time we were all learning about the horrendous abuse in Rotherham, these men were still brazenly continuing their abuse. It is just sickening.
Before I bring my remarks to a close, I want to reflect for a moment on the consequences of child abuse. It is a difficult and distressing subject. I know that it is all too easy to turn away from the distasteful headlines and harrowing stories, and to think that it is something that will never touch us. We think that this kind of abuse could never happen in our town or to anyone we know, but it affects all of us. Child abuse ruins lives, strips people of their dignity and is creating a growing underclass of people who have been abused.
We must think about the consequences of child rape: it sets people back in school and damages their life chances; it pushes people to the margins of society, where they often end up involved in crime and drugs, putting pressure on the police and other agencies; and it leaves people with terrible physical problems, often preventing them from having children of their own. It is a crime that stores up all sorts of problems that are felt across society. Like all violent, senseless crimes, its consequences are felt long after the crime is committed. The psychological damage that it causes to survivors is impossible to overestimate.
With that in mind, and considering the hurdles that we must cross to get the inquiry moving, I am hopeful that the whole House will unite and renew its efforts to bring justice to the victims of child abuse. The survivors are crying out to be heard. It is time we started listening.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
I am delighted that we are having this debate. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) for helping to bring it about. He was one of the gang of seven who went to see the Home Secretary initially to impress upon her the need to have an overarching inquiry, along with my hon. Friends the Members for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) and for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming), who are in the Chamber today.
This is a hugely important subject. As the hon. Member for Rochdale said, the permanent secretary at the Home Office agreed at the Home Affairs Committee this week that it is one of the top three priorities of the Home Office. All of us in this Chamber and our colleagues beyond have constituents who have been the victims and who are the survivors of child sexual abuse that goes back many years. People from my patch have certainly contacted me. Those of us who were at the vanguard of the call for the inquiry have received many harrowing tales from survivors up and down the country.
It is useful briefly to remind ourselves of why the inquiry is so essential. Over the past two and a quarter years, since that extraordinary ITV programme in October 2012 that started to unpeel the horrific, systematic, serial child abuse by one Jimmy Savile, the whole situation has changed and the floodgates have opened. A string of celebrities followed on from Jimmy Savile, including Stuart Hall and Rolf Harris. Investigations have been renewed, reviewed and re-uncovered with Operation Pallial on care homes, Operation Fairbank and Operation Fernbridge. There have been inquiries involving schools, such as Operation Flamborough, which is investigating alleged assaults on girls with learning difficulties at a Hampshire boarding school, and the investigations into Fort Augustus Abbey school, Carlkemp school, Kesgrave Hall school and Chetham’s school of music, where there were a series of abuses by music tutors who had the opportunity, when teaching on a one-to-one basis, to take advantage of vulnerable children.
Of course, there was the tragic suicide of Frances Andrade when all that was uncovered. We have heard about the historical abuse in our religious institutions. There have been criminal investigations into the Catholic Church, including in my diocese of Chichester, where people have ended up in jail and where other investigations are ongoing. There has been Operation Retriever and the more recent child sexual exploitation by Asian gangs and others in Rochdale and Rotherham. We have had Operation Bullfinch and Operation Chalice. It goes on and on.
We must remember that this matter has more recently, not least through the hard work of the hon. Member for Rochdale, started knocking on the door of politics and Westminster. We must not be afraid of that.
Julian Smith
My hon. Friend might be coming to this point, but does he agree that it is vital that we leave no stone unturned in getting to the bottom of what has happened in this place? It has to be an absolute priority for the inquiry to find out what has happened and, potentially, what is happening in the corridors of power.
Tim Loughton
That is entirely the point that the hon. Member for Rochdale made. It is not in the interests of any one of us who is in politics or in Parliament to stand by while suspicions and allegations of child sexual abuse involving politicians, dead or alive, are ignored. We need to root out this cancer. A child sexual abuser who happens to have been a politician is no less of a vile criminal than Jimmy Savile, a rogue priest or any other subject of the overarching inquiry. Those who think that we would want to cover up the involvement of other politicians in this abuse need to understand that this cancer tarnishes all of us and needs to be cut out. We have more incentive than many to ensure that we leave no stone unturned, however uncomfortable the findings may be.
Sir William Cash
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) for their persistence in this matter. It is a remarkable example of how results can come from determination. He might be interested to know that it was Jim Callaghan who, as Prime Minister, insisted that the Protection of Children Bill reached its Report stage, against the background of considerable covert opposition. I was involved in that Bill in 1977 on behalf of the former Member of Parliament, the late Cyril Townsend. Jim Callaghan told me that his wife had said that if he did not get the Bill through as Prime Minister, she would not speak to him for six months.
Tim Loughton
My hon. Friend makes a good point and one that I have heard him make before. He is a veteran of taking an interest in this issue and ensuring that a spotlight is placed on these horrendous crimes. That was more difficult back in the ’70s and ’80s, when there was what I call the “Oh, it’s only Jimmy” mentality. What we now recognise as vile crimes against vulnerable children were swept under the carpet. It was assumed that that was just what went on and people did not want to rock the boat, for all sorts of reasons. It was harder for people to stand up and point the finger in the ’70s and ’80s than it is now. We should pay tribute to those people who, under whatever duress, brought such matters into the open.
It would have been better and easier if the overarching inquiry had started two years ago. Some of us wrote to the Prime Minister soon after the Savile revelations broke to say, “This is going to be really important. This is going to lead to a serious undermining of confidence in the child protection system in this country, and all sorts of allegations about cover-ups will start to come out.” The floodgates had been opened. The only compensation of the Savile case is that it raised the profile of child sexual abuse and emboldened victims to come forward who for years and decades had been told to go away and forget about it, and had been treated almost as the perpetrators, as the hon. Member for Rochdale said, rather than the victims that they were or the survivors that they are. If the inquiry had got under way before the floodgates opened, I think there would be more trust that the Government and politicians were taking a lead and wanted to uncover it all, but alas that did not happen.
I pay tribute to the Home Secretary, who stuck her head above the parapet and agreed to hold the overarching inquiry that we called for in July, appreciating—almost uniquely—just how important and necessary it was. No less than any of the gang of seven and the rest of us who are interested in this issue, she wants to get to the truth and leave no stone unturned. She wants justice to be done for the survivors and to ensure a child protection system that is fit for purpose in 2014.
However, there has been an unfortunate train of events. Elizabeth Butler-Sloss and Fiona Woolf were both excellent candidates to chair such a high-profile inquiry, but circumstances conspired for them to lose credibility in the eyes of survivors. In many respects, one could not win. Elizabeth Butler-Sloss has huge experience in child abuse inquiries and the family courts. She had a connection with a Government Minister—her brother—back in the 1980s, and decided that that would overshadow the great experience that she could have brought to the inquiry. I think that was unfortunate. Fiona Woolf had no connections with the family courts and seemed to have no baggage or agenda, but, alas, she too was not able to carry the inquiry forward. We should not see that as a deliberate intention to try to undermine or rig the inquiry; they were two, honourable heavyweight candidates, but unfortunately, because of the delicacy and sensitivity of this issue, they were not able to continue.
It is vital to get on with the inquiry and, as the Home Secretary announced, in the absence of a chair the panel must get the work under way. We heard from the permanent secretary at the Home Office that a new candidate is unlikely to come forward until the new year, and the Home Affairs Committee, on which I serve, will be asked to give them a confirmatory hearing. That person—or perhaps persons, as we may need dual chairs—must be allowed to get on with the job. If they cannot, the inquiry will never happen, and we must hold this inquiry.
This overarching inquiry is important for three reasons. First, we must put into historical context exactly how such things were allowed to happen, and learn when things changed and improved. Children are much safer in 2014 than they were in 1964, ’74 or ’84. Did the advent of the Children Act 1989 or the shocking high-profile revelations about the north Wales care homes in the 1990s make society take child abuse more seriously? We must put into context all those different things, which are confusing people with almost weekly revelations of new historical child sex abuse inquiries.
Secondly, the inquiry is necessary to give the survivors a voice at last, ensure that they are listened to, and discover whether the perpetrators are still out there—we know that abuse is still going on, hopefully in a lesser form than it was previously. After decades of not being listened to, people still feel raw. I have met many survivors, and the Home Affairs Committee held a private meeting with survivors who are palpably still traumatised by experiences many decades ago. Survivors must be listened to and feel that they are being listened to, and they must be able to achieve some sort of closure at long last.
The third reason the inquiry must get on with its work is that we must consider whether all major institutions in this country that have significant dealings with children and young people have instituted child protection policies and practices that are fit for purpose in 2014 to deal with modern-day perpetrators of abuse. Rotherham was the tip of the iceberg; there will be more Rotherhams I am afraid, and unless we have assurances and can restore confidence in the public that child protection systems in this country are fit for purpose, people will continue to be worried on behalf of their own children and friends. The inquiry will be vast. Its nature means that it will have to go anywhere and everywhere it needs to go, and it may take many years. That is the nature of the beast that we are dealing with, and it is a beast indeed.
Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con)
May I add a fourth reason? There is now confidence among many victims who want to come out and talk about their experiences but not to the inquiry—they have gone to the police. The Met police, particularly the Sapphire unit, is working closely with victims who would not have come forward if it were not for this inquiry.
Tim Loughton
That is right. We must recognise the enormous pressure that the police services are under to look into historical cases of abuse. Many victims, quite rightly, have bravely been emboldened to come forward, having sat on the issue and been repulsed over many years. I realise that a huge amount of distrust and scepticism from survivors surrounds the inquiry, and I agree with the hon. Member for Rochdale that it is not helpful simply to write them off as conspiracy theorists. During my time as children’s Minister, and subsequently, I met many survivors. They are very raw and there are great sensitivities. It is also difficult to determine who speaks for what is inevitably a disparate group. Some say they would like a judge to head the inquiry. Some say that a judge is the last person they would want. Some say they would prefer to wait a further two, three or six years to get the inquiry right before we start it. Others say we need it now because we need closure now. We must also not forget that there are current victims who need to be helped by the implications of an overarching inquiry.
There are conspiracy theories coming from a very different direction. I received a letter—I should think other hon. Members received it as well:
“I am not one of your constituents. Until last Friday I was only very dimly aware of your existence as an MP, but last Friday evening you appeared on ‘The World Tonight’ and ‘Newsnight’ to discuss the resignation of Fiona Woolf. In both programmes, you repeated allegations about the late Jimmy Savile which you appear not to have verified or investigated in any way.”
There are people standing up for Jimmy Savile, saying that he has been misrepresented in some way. There are extraordinary theories going around, which is why we need an inquiry to get to the truth.
In conclusion, what action should be taken going forward? The whole inquiry could have been handled better. The survivors should have been consulted earlier, before the processes and structures were set up, but we are where we are and we need to move forward and get the inquiry going.
First, we need to get on with appointing a chair, or possibly dual chairs. There will be circumstances where certain people being investigated as part of the overarching inquiry will be known to a chair. It is impossible, frankly, to get somebody with the calibre to chair such an inquiry who has no knowledge of all sorts of people who may have been on the periphery. If that does happen, perhaps they could step aside temporarily and an alternative chair could come in for the part of the investigation which involved somebody with whom they may have had a connection. We must remember, however, that these are not trials of criminals now. This is an overarching inquiry and it is for other police investigations to nail down perpetrators and bring charges.
Secondly, I have got to the stage where I believe the inquiry needs to be chaired by a judge, or judges. Many judges have turned down the invitation, which is not surprising. It is a poisoned chalice. We may have to go overseas to find somebody who does not have connections and baggage. It will perhaps be difficult to find somebody with the knowledge of the way the systems have worked in this country to lead the inquiry, but this is not the Oscar Pistorius trial. This is not a one man or one woman show; it is a panel of experts which includes, at the behest of many of us who went to see the Home Secretary, the survivors. The survivors should be represented at the heart of the panel to ensure that their perspective is included.
Thirdly, it is possible that the inquiry will have to become statutory. The Home Secretary has, perfectly reasonably, cited the Hillsborough inquiry as a very good example of an inquiry where everybody—bar one, I think—came forward with the information required of them. She has promised full co-operation from all Government agencies and Departments including, I would hope, the intelligence services, but we have got to the stage where the inquiry may need to be put on a statutory basis.
Sir William Cash
The Hillsborough inquiry was about a dreadful event. This is much more widespread: it goes deeper and involves criminal issues. I entirely agree with the direction my hon. Friend is taking. I am absolutely certain, from all my experience as shadow Attorney-General and in my previous incarnation as a lawyer in these fields, that it is absolutely essential not only to have an Inquiries Act 2005 inquiry but to have it led by a judge who can evaluate all the circumstances.
Tim Loughton
I feared my hon. Friend was about to say that Hillsborough was a terrible inquiry. No, it was a good inquiry about a terrible event and I think he is probably right. This is a huge, many-headed hydra that will go into many Departments and include documents and information from the intelligence services and others.
Fourthly, we must recognise that we have a good panel of experts. Questions have been asked about the way certain members of the panel were appointed. That was up to the Home Secretary, with advice from her officials. The gang of seven and others were invited to make any suggestions helpfully. I made some suggestions. Some of the people I suggested had been recommended by other institutions. Some of the people I suggested have not made it on to the panel. Some people think that, because they have been suggested by MPs, they must therefore be tainted. Please recognise that we have a good panel of experts from a wide variety of disciplines who bring great skills to the panel. To think that any one of them, let alone the eventual chair or chairs, could in any way, in such a high-profile inquiry with such a spotlight shining on them, sweep something under the carpet or try to divert the inquiry’s deliberations is just not realistic.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I accept what the hon. Gentleman says about the panel members, but it would have been better had survivors, representatives and groups at least been consulted on the members before they were announced. The fact that they were not has caused undue suspicion among some survivors. I am sure he thinks it would have been a better way of putting the panel together.
Tim Loughton
I actually said that just now. It should have been handled better, but we are where we are.
I agree with the hon. Member for Rochdale that the terms of reference, particularly for whistleblowers, need to be reviewed. We do not want people, be they police officers or others, not coming forward to help uncover the truth because of a fear of procedures. I am not a supporter of mandatory reporting, but we need a system of whistleblowing that is fit for purpose and does not get in the way of the truth in this inquiry.
The chair and the panel need to be completely transparent, accountable and accessible. I recommend we have a sounding board panel of survivors who are consulted not just at the beginning—it should have happened earlier—but as the inquiry progresses so they can give their input on whether the inquiry is getting under the right stones, going in the right direction and being rigorous enough. They need to be part of that process all the way through.
As I said earlier, Parliament should have no fear if the inquiry encroaches on our own sort, and it does not help any party or politician to be party to a cover-up. We need to ensure, and all the survivors need to trust, that we have a shared agenda and aim to which many of us are wedded: to root out criminals; to uncover the truth, however unpalatable; to give survivors a voice; and to ensure that the system in 2014 is working to keep our children and young people safe.
Survivors need help and counselling. I have met survivors who have had to set up charities to give counselling and advice to other survivors and who are doing it on a shoestring. Organisations such as the National Association for People Abused in Childhood have done excellent work but are now being overwhelmed. There is a huge demand for counselling services from survivors having to relive a trauma they thought had gone away, and there have even been suicides by former survivors since this was uncovered. We have to do more on that score.
Finally, however, there are grounds for optimism. Notwithstanding Rotherham and the fact that there will be more Rotherhams, our awareness of child exploitation is higher than ever. The child sexual exploitation action plan, which I launched as children’s Minister in November 2011, is the thing of which I am most proud from my time at the Department. It has brought about a sea change in the way we recognise, intervene on and tackle child sexual exploitation, and has brought together the police and social, education and health workers through local safeguarding children boards—they are not good enough, as the Ofsted recently showed, but we are going in the right direction—and ensured that taxi firms and hotels have a means of sharing information if gang abuse is happening on their premises or in their taxis.
Furthermore, we now have an Archbishop of Canterbury who takes this issue so seriously that he will not consecrate any new bishop until they have gone through a child sexual exploitation training course, and clergy and volunteers throughout the Church of England and—I am sure—other Churches are being brought up to speed. We have also seen changes in court procedures meaning that victims are more confident about coming to court and can give evidence in greater safety, without being intimidated by barristers, and that more perpetrators are going to jail. We owe it to the survivors and to vulnerable children and young people now to get this overarching inquiry under way; to make its investigations robust; and to ensure that its findings stick. We must do that if we are to restore confidence in the child protection system we so desperately need.
Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con)
We have heard two interesting speeches, one of them particularly emotional, which is understandable. Anyone who has worked, as I have, for some considerable time in this area will have great difficulty not getting emotional about it. One needs only to hear the stories.
The hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) appeared to start from the 1970s, so I would refer him to a period before that. A film appeared on BBC2—it is still available—called “Hunting Britain’s Paedophiles”. It was produced by a man called Bob Long, who followed the Metropolitan police paedophile unit, tracking a gang that had run its own institution of dance studios and the like since 1959. Members of that gang were finally put away earlier this century. They used manuals and induced the kids, and the number of children involved over 40 or 50 years would have been vast. However, that was the start of a real rethink, resulting in the Sexual Offences Act 2003, which brought grooming into the picture. At that stage, and still to a degree, this country was ahead of anywhere else in the world on that particular aspect of dealing with this problem.
My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) was involved in that as a Minister, and many of us worked in the background. He talked about the high-profile cases. I am bothered that in concentrating on those cases, we may be missing thousands—and there will be thousands—of children elsewhere who have been abused over many years by gangs. We have got to be broad, and the advantage of dealing with the high-profile cases is that it makes it absolutely sure that it will appear in the media and in people’s minds, which has a positive effect.
Coming right back to the title of today’s debate, I find it interesting that so soon after the commencement of this historical child sex abuse inquiry, today’s debate is looking at progress. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary bravely anticipates an initial report before Christmas. In addition, the Home Office says that it does not expect a full report before the next election.
It is worth looking at the Northern Ireland Assembly, which set up a similar inquiry into child sexual abuse in Northern Ireland’s institutions. The population of Northern Ireland is much less than here, the number of institutions is much smaller and the terms of reference much narrower—perhaps, after recent accusations, too narrow. The inquiry commenced in January 2012. I have not followed its progress carefully but I understand that the first part, interviewing witnesses behind closed doors, will be complete by Christmas. Educated guesses are that the report for this much smaller inquiry will come out in 2016, 2017 or later.
We need to decide whether we want a speedy inquiry that comes forward with possibly predictable things that we already have and with no depth, or exactly the opposite, in which case the inquiry will go on for years. Our inquiry is much broader, potentially involving vast numbers of institutions and others. Many of these will wish to hide, and are capable of hiding, past sexual abuse. We will not catch them all; we will not get to the bottom of it all; but we might get enough from those we look at to bring about some dramatic changes to build on what has already happened.
I first became interested in legislation relating to protecting children from abuse and enabling the better prosecution of abusers, particularly child sex abusers, many years ago. My interest resulted from the shock of a day spent with the Metropolitan police paedophile unit, which would completely shake anyone, unless they had the tendencies. At that time, it was the leading unit in the country and probably still is, alongside the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre. CEOP and the Met unit work in the same area of protection, but act differently: one can arrest, the other cannot.
At the time, the head of the Met unit was DCI Bob McLachlan—a very tough character. His unit was small, especially in comparison with the current Met unit, but it had a much broader geographical link, look and vista, including overseas, than one would expect for a Met unit.
Years ago, I asked Bob McLachlan how many active paedophiles he and his team thought there were in this country. He said that, in about the year 2000, he and his team had undertaken an exercise on just that subject, and had estimated that there were 230,000 active paedophiles—enough, he said, for there to be one in every street in the country. He also said that 20% of those paedophiles were women, and that half of them—that is, 10%—were women who actively took part in the abuse, sometimes of their own accord rather than being goaded. In those days it was hard to prosecute female abusers because juries would not believe that females were capable of abuse, but cases that have arisen over the last few years have proved that they are. Predominantly, they seem to act in institutions, but we should be very aware that that is not always the case. Given the huge progress of the internet and the “dark web”, there must have been a large increase in the number of paedophiles since 2000. Bob’s figure of 230,000 was a guesstimate.
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making a fascinating but also very depressing speech. Does he share my concern about sentencing? A high-profile figure in my community was found in possession of 50,000 of the most extreme images imaginable. He went to jail, but came out after nine months, and received no rehabilitation of any sort. It is inconceivable that he does not now pose a threat to children in my community, and there are probably 200 or 300 people like him on my patch alone.
Sir Paul Beresford
I agree with my hon. Friend. The Law Officers in the present Government have chased many of these individuals, and they have a list. However, what we need is an inquiry—conducted by the Attorney-General rather than the Home Office—into the sentences imposed, compared with those that are available.
My hon. Friend spoke of 50,000 indecent images. Judging by many cases that I have looked into, 50,000 is a drop in the ocean. Some of these individuals have hundreds of thousands of images, which may run into the millions. What they do with them is beyond me, but they have them, and we have changed the law so that we can now have access to them. They may not be accessible because they have been encrypted, but another recent change in the law, which I initiated, means that these individuals can be sent to jail for failing to allow the encryption to be broken.
I did not ask Bob, the policeman, for a definition of “paedophile”. Perhaps I should have, because there are various definitions. For the purposes of the inquiry, it needs to be recognised that the vast majority of child abuse, and child sex abuse, happens in families—including extended families—and not in institutions. The inquiry should not forget, and we should not forget, that there is more going on outside institutions than inside them. Having said that, however, I should add that, historically as well as today, predatory paedophiles—both male and female—can and do use institutions in which they are in a position of trust as their field of operations.
Julian Smith
I do not know whether my hon. Friend saw a Channel 4 documentary entitled “The Paedophile Hunter” earlier this week. It raised some quite concerning issues relating to how we as a country have dealt with paedophiles, and referred to academic research which suggested that we should be doing more of what is being done in Germany—helping paedophiles who want to come forward and be given counselling to do so. What conclusions has my hon. Friend reached about the validity of such work?
Sir Paul Beresford
There was a similar programme on Channel 4 about paedophiles as neighbours. The individual in the Channel 4 programme went to Germany, but he did not need to do so. The facilities are available in this country, and have been for a considerable time. They are used in the Prison Service, for instance, and in a world-famous organisation called the Lucy Faithfull Foundation. The system works rather like Alcoholics Anonymous, and the success rate is very high. The problem with the success rate is the cherry-picking, but that does not bother me. If such organisations catch these individuals early enough and stop them, they are being proactive, and that is what we really want.
On occasion, Bob McLachlan would catch these individuals before they did anything and say, “Lad, go and get treatment. If you don’t go and get treatment, I’ll take you to court. If I catch you a second time, you’re going to court.” I have drifted a little way from what I was saying.
In debates such as today’s, Members may be tempted—we have had a bit of this—to add to the inquiry. My only addition relates to the members of the team. It does not have, as the Northern Ireland one does, a highly experienced and recently retired police officer expert in this area. No one on that team has actually looked for these people, arrested them, talked to the victims as part of the campaign and the whole programme. I hope that the Home Office will think about that.
The Northern Ireland inquiry was wise enough to take on an expert who served for many years with the Met police. He is a very recently retired Met DCI who is renowned for his success not only in catching and convicting offenders but in caring for and helping victims, introducing new systems—for example, face recognition—at the Met to find victims. The fact that his nickname in the police is Postman Pat indicates how he is able to approach both victims and offenders so successfully. I do not know how he does it. He interviews victims and they warm to him. He interviews the paedophiles and they warm to him until he reaches the point where he has to leave the room because he feels absolutely disgusted. I can say that now because he is no longer doing it.
I hope we recognise that if we have a decent report on the issue it will probably resemble the “Encyclopaedia Britannica” in volume. I also suspect that the inquiry will report in 2016 if we are lucky, 2017 possibly, but probably even later if it is to be of real value. The inquiry team has a vital role in listening to victims and unearthing currently hidden activities in institutions, as set out in the terms of reference. Merely listening to victims will enable help to be provided to them, as well as potential lines of investigation to be passed to the police. As I said earlier, people will be encouraged to go to the police of their own accord. However, we must recognise that over the past 10 to 12 years there have been huge changes in the protection of children. There have been massive changes in legislation, which I am proud to say I have had a subtle, low-profile hand in putting through. There have been massive changes in attitude and public awareness, and the number of officials, especially police, in this field has gone up enormously. CEOP has been set up, and I believe that all police forces now have paedophile units. They did not 20 years ago. The Met and Birmingham units were the only ones. The Met unit is probably more than 10 times the strength it was when I visited it on that first day of shock. In addition, the Met have their Jigsaw team throughout London, actively monitoring those on the offenders list.
My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) mentioned the individual who came out of prison after nine months. It is not finished for him. He will be being watched by the Jigsaw team. We can guarantee that the moment he steps out of line he will be back there.
It is probable that the inquiry will rehash lessons we have already learnt but, probably more usefully—my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham touched on this—it will show where we have the legislation and experience and we are not using it.
Zac Goldsmith
I am sorry to interrupt—I will make a speech shortly—but I have spoken to members of the Jigsaw team in my patch and other areas. My hon. Friend is right to say that there is monitoring afterwards, but talk to any member confidentially and they will say that they are not satisfied with the current regime. They feel that they have an impossible task because of the sheer number of people they have to monitor. There are incidents all the time relating to people who are supposed to be monitored by Jigsaw teams. A tiny number of police officers are monitoring a vast number of very dangerous people. It is not a satisfactory situation at all.
Sir Paul Beresford
I completely agree. I have talked to some of the Jigsaw team, too. It is putting together a programme of suggestions that it will bring to the Home Office. Perhaps my hon. Friend can join me and we can use my subtle-ish methods of sliding legislative changes through, so that the Home Office will agree and we can put them through. That is why we have ten-minute rule Bills and private Members’ Bills. It is possible to put such changes through. It does make one vulnerable to accusations from the BBC—recently I put a piece of legislation through that was on the Floor of the House for just 17 minutes because everybody agreed on it, and I think everybody will on this area, too.
It is probable that the inquiry will rehash lessons already learned, but not always acted upon. The legislation that is in place has also not always been acted upon, partly because many of the non-specialist police officers do not know what is available.
I hope we will relax a little over the inquiry, and let it get on with the job. It is a big job that will take a long time, and we should leave the inquiry team alone for a while to get on with it. Having said that, I want to repeat my small inquiry to the Minister, who is half-listening on the Front Bench: that team is excellent, but it does not include a police officer or ex-police officer, and I can recommend one or two if I am asked—and I am willing to be asked.
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
I start by paying tribute to the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) for securing the debate, along with the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt), who cannot be here today for good reason. The hon. Gentleman made a powerful case, and I would not want him to be on my case under any circumstances because he is a formidable campaigner.
I do not want to go into too many of the specifics of the abuse allegations, as that would not be appropriate for today, but I do want to emphasise the scale of the allegations. The Westminster paedophile ring, which has now become a murder investigation; Jimmy Savile; children’s homes; the Church; Rochdale; the grooming scandals in Rotherham: it goes on and on and on. There is the Elm guest house, too, which is in my constituency, and the reason why I am here today—and it is also the reason why I became aware of these horrific events.
I also want to emphasise how important this inquiry is and why its nature, form, structure, remit and credibility matter so very much. We now know that there have been systematic cover-ups. Powerful people have done terrible things and they have been protected, and unsurprisingly many of the victims left behind are struggling today to believe that that same establishment is on their side. Frankly, it has not been for many, many years.
We need only consider the Elm guest house in Barnes, which was run by Haroon and Carole Kasir. It was raided more than 30 years ago, back in 1982. The couple were fined and given suspended sentences for running a disorderly house, but at the time there were already questions and allegations around the abuse of young children at the house. Allegedly—we are reliably told this—12 boys gave evidence in 1982 that they had been abused, yet all these allegations simply evaporated at the time, some 30 years ago. They are only resurfacing now.
When Mrs Kasir died a few years after the house was raided, in very odd circumstances, a child protection campaigner from the National Association Of Young People In Care called for a criminal investigation into events at Elm guest house. He said he had been told by Mrs Kasir that boys had been brought in from a local children’s home—Grafton Close, also in Richmond—for sex, and that she had photographs of establishment figures at her hotel. One of them apparently showed a former Cabinet Minister in a sauna with a naked boy. She had logbooks, names, times, dates, pictures of her customers and so on. All that evidence simply disappeared after the raids and no longer exists. That is astonishing.
The Met has since confirmed that Cyril Smith visited the place—the hon. Member for Rochdale has made this point—and at least three other men named in documents as visitors to the Elm guest house were later convicted of multiple sexual offences against children. It is impossible to believe there was not a cover up. This is not sloppiness; there has to be more to it than that.
Then this week it emerged that a former news editor of one of my local papers, the Surrey Comet, had been prevented from making inquiries into the Elm guest house in 1984 after he was issued with a D notice by the Government. It goes on and on and on.
We all know about the famous Dickens dossier, a long list of names of abusers that was handed into the then Home Secretary, Leon Brittan, in 1983. That dossier, too, has vanished. The Wanless review was established to look into its whereabouts. It has been inconclusive on many levels, but it refers to a letter that Leon Brittan, then Home Secretary, wrote in reply to Mr Dickens on 20 March 1984. It states that a dossier of letters provided by Mr Dickens was passed to the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and that,
“in the view of the DPP, two”
of these cases
“could form the basis for enquiries by the police and have been passed to the appropriate authorities.”
There is no evidence of those letters now. How is that even possible? How is it possible for those trails to evaporate in that way?
Things have moved on, and today the Met is investigating allegations that at least three young boys were murdered by this depraved network of VIP and MP paedophiles. Operation Midland is the name of the investigation. On the back of that, a retired magistrate, Vishambar Mehrotra, the father of eight-year-old Vishal, who disappeared in 1981 and whose body was found a year later in West Sussex, has come forward to say that at the time of his son’s disappearance he was contacted by a male prostitute who told him that his son had probably been killed by VIP paedophiles linked to Elm guest house. He recorded that conversation and took it to the police, but nothing happened. Again, the evidence just evaporated.
Linked to that, two former Scotland Yard detectives who had investigated allegations of the murder of young boys more than 30 years ago have recently said on record that they were instructed to stop their investigations at the time. This all sounds unbelievable, but who now among us or outside this place would want to suggest that there have been no conspiracies? Who would just dismiss this stuff as fantasy? A few years ago, we probably all would have done so, but not nowadays.
Ian Lucas
When the Waterhouse inquiry, a judicial inquiry, took place, allegations were made relating to politicians and paedophile networks in north Wales. Does the hon. Gentleman not find it extraordinary that none of the information to which he is referring appears to have been considered by that inquiry?
Zac Goldsmith
I have only the patchiest knowledge of the case that the hon. Gentleman has just described, so I cannot really comment on it, but we could sit here for hours swapping examples of important evidence that has disappeared and of leads that have not been followed up.
When we see some of the stories that we now know to be true, it is not hard to understand why there are pockets of conspiracy. I am not convinced that there is a grand, overarching conspiracy, but there are without a doubt lots of pockets of conspiracy and cover-up, and that has been happening over the past few decades. We know, for example, that a former deputy director of MI6, Sir Peter Hayman, was a member of the Paedophile Information Exchange. That is not disputed. We know that he was investigated in 1978 for having grotesque images in his possession. We also know that absolutely nothing happened with that evidence.
Thanks to the new Operation Cayacos, we also know about the convicted paedophile, Peter Righton, whom the hon. Member for Rochdale has mentioned in many contexts. He was once regarded as a leading child protection specialist in this country, but he ran a sophisticated network of abusers. When he was raided in 1992, 25 years-worth of correspondence between him and other paedophiles was found, but again the leads just dried up. I could provide endless similar examples—I suspect that many other Members could do the same—but I hope that I have already made my point. I will not dwell on the examples any further.
This is why the inquiry is so important, and why we must bend over backwards to ensure that it is credible even to those who are most suspicious of it, particularly the survivors who have direct experience of cover-ups and are unwilling to blanket-trust the establishment and the authorities to be on their side.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (UKIP)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)
Order. The hon. Gentleman has only been in the Chamber for a few minutes. The debate has been going on for some considerable time. The normal convention is that Members should be in the Chamber to hear more of the debate—rather than just a few minutes of the current speech—before they intervene. The hon. Gentleman is returning to the House and he should know the courtesies of the House well. He should not need to be reminded of them.
Zac Goldsmith
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) is welcome to intervene on me whenever the appropriate time comes.
I want to give the House some specific information relating to the inquiry that we are talking about. I also have some questions and suggestions for the Home Secretary and for the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), who is here in her place. First, we need to know that the Home Office has instructed all Ministries and Government agencies—including the security services, the NHS, police forces, local authorities and schools—not to destroy any documents that are even remotely connected to child sex abuse. I might be wrong, but I believe that if this were a statutory inquiry, that would already have been done. I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to that important point.
The Home Secretary has been firm about the security services needing to hand over evidence, but she has not explained how that has or will be done. This may not even be necessary, but it is worth considering empowering the inquiry to compel the security services to hand over information in the event that that becomes necessary. The selection of the inquiry chair has been discussed, but it is crucial. I accept that whoever the chair is they will be the chair of a panel and the panel as a whole will have a role to play. I would like to understand better exactly how the chair will be selected, how MPs are going to be consulted on that and how survivors are going to be consulted. I very much hope the panel will have a role in the chair’s selection.
There are fears, some of which have been expressed today, that the police lack adequate resources to carry out the necessary investigations, particularly now that this has moved into a murder inquiry. I know that the police inquiries have already moved up quite a few notches since this inquiry was announced, and I do not think that is a coincidence. I believe that police numbers on Operation Fernbridge and associated investigations have grown from seven to 40 in the past few months, which is very good news. I hope that trend continues and that the police are given all the resources they need to get to the bottom of this, once and for all.
Historically, however, the police have been part of the story, just as MPs, celebrities and everyone else has been, and it is imperative that people coming forward have absolute confidence that they will be heard and that leads will be correctly followed up. So, following on from the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), it must be made clear how the inquiry that will be looking at the processes—the cover-ups—will handle allegations and ensure that they are picked up properly by the appropriate police force.
Julian Smith
I have had experience in my constituency recently of working with a victim and the police were asking the victim I was trying to help for details of the conversations she had had with me. We still face a major issue with some elements in the police of interference and of a lack of understanding of the relationship between an MP and others, independent of the work that they are doing.
Zac Goldsmith
My hon. Friend makes the point well and puts it on the record.
Sir Paul Beresford
I want to intervene on the intervention, because I have been in the same situation as that described by my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), and it was part of the police process of gathering evidence. I saw it in a positive way because the lady may not have told the police what she told me and I gave a full statement which added to what they already had. I saw it positively, not negatively.
Zac Goldsmith
I am going to bring my remarks to a close. We have a chance now to put these appalling wrongs right. That is partially thanks to intervention by people in this House and people outside it. Survivors have played a crucial role, but so, too, did the intervention in this House by the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson). That was crucial in shifting this process forward, as was the exposé of Cyril Smith by the hon. Member for Rochdale. Above all, I wish to pay tribute to the extraordinary work by the investigative journalists at Exaro, particularly David Hencke. That organisation has led the campaign on so many fronts. The mainstream press, who have been so slow to pick up on what is really happening in this scandal, have become heavily dependent, and rightly so, on Exaro. I sometimes feel that because it is online and does not have the magazine on people’s desks, it is somehow invisible to people who are not paying attention. But Exaro is crucial; David Hencke has encyclopaedic knowledge of something that I do not ever want to have encyclopaedic knowledge of, and he is an extraordinary figure.
There can no longer be any doubt that powerful people have done terrible things and that they have been protected by the establishment. We know that some of the key figures are alive today, and the measure of success for the police investigations is that those people face justice before they die. This process really needs to happen now. Justice must be done and it must be seen to be done. It is no good waiting years and years for some of these people to fade away and be punished in their absence—that is not good enough. The measure of success for this inquiry is that we and the wider public understand how these conspiracies and cover-ups have been able to happen. Only by understanding how they form will we have any hope of preventing them from forming again.
Sir Paul Beresford
My hon. Friend has touched on the key point. The key point we have to learn, which we have been learning, using and considering in the changes to legislation, is that we must be proactive. We have to get the individuals before they get the children.
Zac Goldsmith
My hon. Friend is absolutely right.
Let me end by putting it on the record that I am grateful to the current Home Secretary for having had the courage to initiate this process. She is often described as having been bullied and hectored by a bunch of MPs, but, as someone who has done a lot of lobbying on the subject in the four and a half years that I have been here, I can say that it was not difficult to get her to act. She gets the importance of the issue. I do not doubt her absolute commitment and believe that she will leave no stone unturned in getting to the bottom of the matter.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)
I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) on calling for and securing this debate. Progress has been made; we now have a panel to look at the wider issues relating to child sexual abuse. I am pleased that Ivor Frank, a barrister who has himself been in care, has been appointed to the panel. I did get Michael Mansfield to agree to chair the panel, but I have not yet managed to persuade the Home Secretary to appoint him.
It is worthwhile to look at the issues that the panel will be considering, some of which are not in the terms of reference, which should be widened to include Northern Ireland, the Crown dependencies and possibly the British overseas territories. My speech will range wider than that. I spoke on this subject on 13 November 2012; anyone interested should read column 246 of Hansard of that date. I will not repeat the speech, but I refer again to Mike Stein, who, in his excellent article in Child and Family Social Work in February 2006, explained how widespread the problem was, with a possible one in seven children in care being subject to abuse. Perhaps that bears repeating: one in seven children in care. I accept that care is not the only place in which child sexual abuse occurs, but we need to understand how large a number that is. Obviously, it explains why there are so many survivors who are upset about the cover-up.
When looking at the past, it is important that we learn lessons for the future. One lesson that we should really learn is how easy it is for things to be concealed by agents of the state. Hillsborough is relevant in that sense. It should be noted from the Rotherham report that it is only through media attention that anything happens. The checks and balances operating in the system might as well have been welded together for all the challenge that they provided. I remain concerned about the work of Verita, for example, which has been involved in previous cover-ups of errors by the state. I was shocked to see it at the centre of the Savile inquiries both in the UK and Jersey. The central control over the reports from hospitals enables any links to those people protecting him to be concealed.
Let me turn now to the word “independent”. Someone who is paid by someone else is not “independent” of the payor. We see that in the petition I presented for Shaz Hussain, which demonstrated how the local hospital can commission KPMG to write what suits the hospital management rather than the truth. The word “independent” is massively misused in the child protection system. The independent reviewing officer is just another employee of the local authority, and we can see how ineffectual that role is by looking at A and S (Children) v. Lancashire county council 2012 EWHC 1689 (Family).
England has many more problems than Scotland, although there are cases such as that of Mark and Kerry McDougall, who lived happily with their two children in Ireland, but were on the receiving end of vindictive proceedings that saw their children removed when they returned to Scotland. Sadly, they have had to return to Ireland as mum is pregnant, and we will see where that goes.
The state has many tools at its disposal. Local authorities get injunctions to stop people complaining to legislatures, which is an appalling situation. When it comes to child sexual exploitation, there have been problems with the attitudes of those responsible for caring for children even if they do not go as far as the one in seven reported by Mike Stein.
In Birmingham, practitioners in the past have argued that children should be permitted to prostitute themselves while not being allowed to make toast for each other. Attitudes are now shifting, but it remains the case that I have reported cases and felt that my reports were not taken seriously. Someone spoke to me this year about a paedophile network operating in Birmingham in the 1990s, which included at least one senior manager in the child protection arm of social services. I reported that to the police and the local authority. I spoke again to my contact this morning who confirmed that the council had said nothing and that the police had failed to give an update, although they did speak initially.
The council has produced a report called “We Need to Get it Right” in which it states that child sexual exploitation was a “hidden issue”. I raised that in Parliament in 2007 and had expressed concern previously to the local authority. Hence, the issue was not so much hidden as ignored. I have recently raised concerns on behalf of a constituent about activities around the canal going into the city centre, but neither my constituent nor I are satisfied with the response of the authorities, which seem to want to sweep the matter under the carpet—or into the canal.
Some of the public have wondered why, if we have parliamentary privilege, we are not naming names. Speaking personally, I am always concerned that there should be evidence. Lots of things are said on the internet, but we need to remember that not everything on the internet is true. Furthermore, we also need to avoid prejudicing any formal inquiries.
What is true is that very recently, in mid-2011, a journalist from the USA, Leah McGrath Goodman, was banned from the common travel area because she told authorities she was investigating child abuse in Jersey. That included Haut de la Garenne, one place where Savile was active; this happened before he died. She could have asked him who was protecting him, but she was banned by the UK Government. Not only that, but she was obstructed in Heathrow later when the ban was reduced to a year from two years and she finally got a visa. It seems clear that there are influential individuals still using the tools of the state to hold back investigations. What is important is that there will still be an audit trail of evidence and if something is missing it will be obvious.
Jersey is an important element of the debate. It is excluded from the terms of reference, but we know that children were sent there from London to be sexually abused. There are also reasonably widespread reports of abuse cruises involving children in Jersey being visited by people from the UK.
We know that with Kincora, which is outside the terms of reference, and with Cyril Smith, the security services were involved in covering up child abuse. Sir Peter Hayman’s role is obviously key in considering that question. Robert Armstrong should have known by the end of October 1978 about Sir Peter Hayman’s involvement in Paedophile Information Exchange because he had access to all the UK’s secrets and was potentially vulnerable to blackmail. The finding of a sealed letter addressed to him in his false name at his secret London flat—a very curious sequence of events—should have been raised with Merlyn Rees and then with James Callaghan. PIE’s membership is, of course, both a threat to and an opportunity for MI5.
What is interesting about the Wanless report is that the Home Office had a set of secret files on about 100 children’s homes that was passed to the Department of Health in 1972. Their purpose is not described and all the files were marked to be retained and not disclosed for 75 or 100 years. That set of files was not disclosed to Wanless, although Wanless does refer to a standard National Archive file called “Home Secretary’s Meetings” that ended in 1984. That file is missing from the National Archives and could not be found by National Archives staff. Furthermore, the security services refused to provide any information to Wanless and there are questions about what has happened with the special branch files.
There are signs of security service involvement in the treatment of Leah McGrath Goodman as well, and that is of course recent. Answers are needed and the events are sufficiently recent for the answers to be there for anyone who looks with their eyes open.
I have been approached by police officers who are concerned that the management within the Metropolitan police—the senior sergeants or whatever—instructed junior police officers to conceal evidence, and there are examples that can be identified. I put to the Home Secretary the suggestion that where there is a command structure and a senior officer instructs a junior officer to break the law, there should be an opportunity for some sort of amnesty for the junior officer if they then reveal that, so they do not end up being prosecuted for revealing how they were forced to commit offences.
I wrote to the Home Secretary in July asking whether that could be done and received a standard response about the inquiry about a week ago. I have written again to suggest action if we wanted to find out the truth of what has gone on in the Met. There is no doubt that there were people in the Met who were involved in the cover-up. I have had people report that to me; a lot of people are willing to speak up, but not if they end up going to jail as a consequence of admitting what they were forced to do. It is a complex issue, of course, because whenever we have amnesties we need to consider their limits, but if things continue to be concealed because people are frightened to tell the truth it will be very difficult to get to the truth. One of the critical points in all this is getting to the truth.
I recently asked a question to find out about reports written about British overseas territories such as St Helena. It appears that people have known for years what is going on in such places but that nothing has been done to make things work any better. I happen to know that a couple of employment tribunals, which I do not think are covered by the sub judice resolution, started today in Kingsway and will be reported in the media tomorrow. They are relevant and if people are interested they should follow the proceedings.
Let me mention again the failure of the Government to modify the SSDA903 return in order to track when children are lost or trafficked out of the care system. It does not appear that the Government are bothered about this given that they refused to even count them. I continue to go on about this. I know that I am a bit of a techie who is really interested in computer systems and things like that, but if children are disappearing from the care system and we do not bother to count them, what does that say? The response from the Minister was:
“The Department has no plans to expand the codes under which local authorities provide statistical returns on children missing from care, as this will lead to an unnecessary increase in reporting requirements.”—[Official Report, 13 December 2011; Vol. 537, c. 641W.]
Frankly, that is unacceptable. We should be concerned if children are being trafficked. We should be sufficiently concerned as an absolute minimum to count how many are trafficked and find out which authorities they are lost from and what their ages are. We are lucky in that we have a reasonably good database that tracks what happens to children in care. Every year, a large number disappear for other reasons—not that they have gone back to their parents, or have been adopted. They just disappear from the system. I do not think that that is reasonable. We are happy to send in auditors if we are worried that money has disappeared. We send in local government auditors to check about local government finance. We audit the finances to make sure that money has not been stolen. We do not audit what happens to children to make sure that they have not been stolen. That is a failure of this Government, of whom I happen to be a quasi supporter as a Back Bencher.
The history here is all about abuse of power by employees of the state. The fact that it involves the maltreatment of children for sexual gratification makes this all the worse. For the future, we need to make it harder for state employees to conceal abuses of power. More transparency and accountability are needed, as well as less secrecy. Parliament, which is the voice of the people, has to stand on the side of the powerless. Whitehall mandarins, judges, BBC managers, council bureaucrats and professionals all have their own interests and a desire to hide mistakes. Parliament needs to balance the scales on the side of the weak—those without wealth who are crying out and not being heard.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) on securing this debate, which is on the progress of the historical child abuse inquiry. I pay tribute to him for his doughty campaigning on child abuse since entering the House of Commons, and for telling the real story about Cyril Smith.
It is right to acknowledge that in his opening speech my hon. Friend set the tone for what has been a good and important debate. He started his speech by describing the experience of survivors. He talked about William and about John and the life chances that had been limited by the people who abused them. I want to use my speech this afternoon to focus on survivors in relation to the inquiry.
We have heard powerful speeches from the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who brings a wealth of experience as a former children’s Minister, and the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford), who has introduced many changes to the law to protect children over the years. He is another doughty fighter on behalf of children and young people. The hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) spoke eloquently about what he knew had happened in his constituency and the Elm guest house allegations. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) has spoken on many occasions about these issues.
What is powerful about all the speeches is that they were informed in the main by the stories of survivors of abuse. The House owes a huge debt to the survivors, who have shown enormous courage in coming forward, in the hope that their experience can prevent what happened to them from happening again, and that justice can, wherever possible, be done. This debate and the wider inquiry that we are discussing have to have at their heart the survivors’ voices. I want to thank all those people who have taken the time to speak to me and tell me what they want to see out of this child abuse inquiry, including Peter Saunders of the National Association for People Abused in Childhood and Andrew Kershaw of the Survivors of Forde Park, both of whom have done so much to give a voice to those abused as children.
Having listened to the debate today, the Minister can be in no doubt about the commitment of hon. Members to the success of this child abuse inquiry and to ensuring that it has the confidence of survivors. Hon. Members appreciate the scale of the task facing the inquiry panel and the need for the panel to carry out the inquiry in a timely manner, as we know that many perpetrators are growing older and must be brought to justice wherever possible.
Along with the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), many Members have been calling for the overarching inquiry for about two years, so when the Home Secretary announced that she would set it up, that was welcomed across the House. As we know, however, she appointed a chair without proper vetting or consultation. After that sorry saga, we ended up, unbelievably, in the same position with a second chair. We know that the Home Secretary apologised for that and is trying to make sure that from now on there is proper consultation and vetting of the prospective chair. I listened to what the permanent secretary at the Home Office told this place this week, when he said that the child abuse inquiry would be one of the top three issues for the Home Office. That is encouraging to hear.
In relation to the chair, perhaps the Minister will be able to help the House. I understand that about 100 nominations have been made. With due diligence checks and the pre-appointment consultation and hearings that have been scheduled, a chair is unlikely to be in place before the spring of 2015. Will the Minister comment on that timetable?
Although I have just mentioned how important it is to make sure that a chair is appointed as soon as possible, that is not nearly as important as making sure that the survivors of abuse have a voice in the inquiry and that they are involved in discussions about how the inquiry is to proceed. That has not happened enough, which is a problem. It was a fundamental mistake not to consult survivors about the panel members. Although I accept that all the panel members have a great deal to commend them, survivors tell me that they would like to have been consulted. I noted that the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham said that MPs were asked for their opinion and for any suggestions. That is welcome, but the Government missed a trick by not making sure that survivors were also consulted about panel members. As all hon. Members will recognise, if the inquiry is to succeed, survivors must have confidence in the panel to which they will give evidence.
A number of hon. Members referred to the terms of reference. Again, I note that there was no consultation with survivors about the terms of reference for the inquiry. One issue that I would like to take up with the Minister is the cut-off date of 1970. The Home Secretary has said that if that cut-off date is a problem, she will listen to any representations in favour of taking it back further that the chair considers appropriate, but I wonder why the date of 1970 was chosen. I was told just this week that approved schools where a number of children and young people were abused closed in 1969, so they would not come within the scope of the terms of reference. The survivors feel that their experience would not automatically be considered by the panel. Will the Minister explain to the House why 1970 was the date chosen? I have heard suggestions from survivors that the terms of reference should set a cut-off date just after the second world war, which would allow any person still living who has suffered abuse to come forward and feel that their experiences could be part of the inquiry.
Most importantly, I want to talk about how survivors’ voices should be heard in the inquiry. The hon. Member for Mole Valley referred to the experience in Northern Ireland. Its historical institutional abuse inquiry commenced, as he said, with an acknowledgement forum, for the purposes of listening to those who were abused as children in those institutions. That process has taken many months and allowed anyone who has been abused in institutions to come forward and be heard. The acknowledgment forum spoke to more than 500 people. That was not the end of its process of listening to survivors, but the start, informing the next stage of the inquiry, but still hearing from survivors directly.
Australia’s child abuse inquiry has been very good about moving around the country. It reached out to survivors, and the response has been overwhelming. It has taken 17,500 telephone calls, received more than 7,800 letters and e-mails and held over 2,500 private sessions. The English and Welsh inquiry, however, seems to have had two sessions in London and plans two more outside London. They appear to be open meetings. I am very unclear about what it is proposed should happen at those events. It feels to me that they are insufficient, and it is very unclear how they will support survivors who come forward. In Australia and Northern Ireland, people were asked to contact the inquiry, and the inquiry team then worked with individuals to enable them to give evidence in the most appropriate way. They were signposted to support and advice.
I do not think there is any point in proceeding with this inquiry until a process for involving and supporting survivors is established. Existing services, as the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham said, are stretched to breaking point, including NAPAC, which faces losing its offices early next year, at a time of unprecedented demand for its support.
Julian Smith
On the remarks that the hon. Lady has just made about the inquiry, which I am really pleased has started its work—the panel members got started on 12 November—are she and the Labour party recommending that that work should now be paused? Will she clarify her remarks?
Diana Johnson
The problem is that there seems to be a lack of clarity—probably because there is no chair in place—as to how the inquiry is going forward and what the purposes of the regional meetings are. I have asked a number of people to explain to me how those meetings will be conducted. If survivors are to come forward and give evidence at those meetings—I do not know whether that is their purpose—there is a concern about the lack of clarity and the lack of an agreed process as to how that is to be handled. That is why I wanted to refer to the Northern Ireland example, as it is very clear what it was going to do in that first period: hear from survivors so that it could get to grips with the extent of the problem through the evidence before it, which would then determine how the rest of the inquiry would proceed. My purpose in referring to that inquiry was to highlight the need for clarity on how proceedings should go on.
On the point about the support available to survivors, I think that we need a very clear process—this fits in with what the hon. Gentleman has just asked—for the inquiry, whereby survivors are fully involved and supported and it has their confidence. I think that we are all looking to ensure that survivors are in that position as the inquiry moves forward.
Julian Smith
The hon. Lady has still not directly answered my question about the Labour party’s view, given what she has said. Does she agree that it is very problematic to ask Ministers to micro-manage this inquiry? There are some very senior people on the panel, and they must now be able to get on with their work. Has she spoken directly to the panel members about their plans for the next few months?
Diana Johnson
I am not trying to imply that the Minister or the Home Secretary should micro-manage. I am merely highlighting where the inquiry is not operating in a clear way, such that survivors are saying that they are not sure what the process is or what the purpose of the regional meetings is. I think the problem stems from the fact that no chair is in place directing the inquiry. As I said, the chair may not be appointed for many months. That causes me some concern. I hope that the Minister will be able to assist us on what the Home Office and Ministers may be able to do to support the panel in making the process a bit clearer so that survivors really understand what is happening during this period.
We must make sure that survivors who come forward with their evidence are fully supported afterwards. I worry that the Home Secretary has talked about the NHS being part of providing that support, given that the NHS is under such stress, particularly in terms of counselling services, where there are often long waiting lists. What additional support will be available to survivors, and particularly to third sector groups?
This inquiry must aim to investigate historical child abuse, to try to bring justice to those who have seen justice denied for too long, and to inform current practice in the field of child protection to stop children being abused in future. While it is important to investigate historical allegations, we must never forget that children are still being abused today, as a number of hon. Members said.
I want to make a suggestion to the Minister about the way forward. While the main inquiry establishes a forum for hearing from survivors, in the first instance, the other inquiries that have been set up—such as the north Wales care homes inquiry, the BBC inquiry, and the ongoing NHS inquiries—would have time to conclude and to put forward their recommendations for a response. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) mentioned the potential confusion about how those other inquiries will fit with the overarching inquiry, and that is part of the overall problem of how this is going to work. The main inquiry could then commence in the position of having heard from survivors of abuse and seen the recommendations of the other inquiries and what they have come up with.
On the legal status of the inquiry, there is a particular issue relating to documents. Lawyers have told me that because the inquiry has not been put on a statutory footing, organisations could destroy documents with no legal consequences, whereas if it were to be put on a statutory footing, there would be criminal consequences for that type of behaviour. The Home Secretary has said that the chair can decide whether to make the inquiry statutory, so that suggests that her mind is open to it. However, as we know, the chair is unlikely to be appointed for many months, and lawyers are saying that in the meantime documents could be destroyed. The hon. Member for Richmond Park also raised this point. Will the Minister comment on it?
We need to hear from the Minister how she is going to make this inquiry work with the confidence of survivors, and how she will give survivors the voice that they deserve and that the inquiry has to hear. She needs to give us an overview of how she sees survivors being consulted and to explain how they will be listened to in the inquiry. I hope that she will also address the broader question of how the inquiry will build on the other inquiries already set up and work to inform best practice. The survivors need to know that this Government and this Parliament want the inquiry to succeed. We want to give survivors whatever redress is possible and to learn lessons so that these terrible situations do not arise in future.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Karen Bradley)
May I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) on securing this important debate, and thank the Backbench Business Committee for giving him the time to address and air the incredibly important issues involved? I welcome the chance to debate them again.
I thank all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), whose experience as a former children’s Minister makes him an expert in this field. I promise my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford), who also has great experience, that I listened to his speech extraordinarily carefully. I have always appreciated his regular suggestions to me on many topics, particularly those under discussion. My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) also has great knowledge of the issue as a result of his constituency experience, and he has been instrumental in making sure that it is taken seriously and given the prominence it deserves in Parliament. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) for his contribution, which shed considerable light on the path we have taken to get to this point.
I want to start by being clear on the title of the inquiry under discussion. It is the independent panel inquiry into child sexual abuse. It is not, as the title of this debate on the Order Paper says, an inquiry into “historic” child sex abuse. I say that because survivors have been clear with us that, for them, the abuse they have suffered is not historic—it is not done, it is not finished and it is not in the past. It is something the consequences of which they have to deal with every single day of their lives. The hon. Member for Rochdale opened his speech by mentioning William and John—I know those are not their real names—which really brought home how live this issue is for victims. We should treat it not as historic but as a real, current problem.
As the Home Secretary set out when she spoke to the House on 3 November, the work of the inquiry is hugely important, providing us with a once-in-a-generation opportunity to expose what went wrong in the past and prevent it from going wrong in the future. I want to focus on how we go about finding out the truth about these crimes.
I repeat that it is a live issue. If hon. Members had the opportunity to check their phones or smart devices during the course of the debate, they will have seen the report about the conviction yesterday of a Bristol sex gang jailed for grooming girls:
“Thirteen men have been convicted of a string of child sex crimes in Bristol involving the abuse, rape and prostitution of teenage girls.”
My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham talked about the awareness we have today and how this crime is now treated differently. We should all be very proud of that. We should also be very pleased that the police are taking such matters seriously and getting successful convictions.
We need, however, to understand what happened in the past. It is important to consider the inquiry’s terms of reference, which are:
“To consider the extent to which State and non-State institutions have failed in their duty of care to protect children from sexual abuse and exploitation; to consider the extent to which those failings have since been addressed; to identify further action needed to address any failings identified; and to publish a report with recommendations.”
That is important because, when a specific crime is uncovered as a result of this work, it must be investigated by the police, law enforcement bodies and the relevant bodies in whichever territorial area the crime took place. The inquiry is looking at the way in which state and non-state institutions have approached child abuse in the past. We need to make sure that we get to the bottom of that, but that does not preclude us from looking at the crimes themselves and ensuring that, wherever those crimes took place, they are properly investigated.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
For the record, am I right in thinking that the commission of inquiry will, if necessary, investigate outside UK jurisdiction—the Channel Islands, for instance—reports of abuses in children’s homes there?
Karen Bradley
If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will come on to territorial extent shortly.
On the chairing of the inquiry, the House will be aware that the first two chairs resigned. It is important to say that they resigned not because they did not have the right credentials, but because they did not command the confidence of survivors. As the Home Secretary made clear, the priority now is to find someone who is suitably qualified and who can also win that confidence.
The Home Secretary and the whole of the Home Office are committed to working with survivors and their representatives in the process of recruiting a new chair. I can update the House today by saying that the Home Secretary has had a number of meetings with survivors of abuse and their representatives. She has not yet finished that process so I am not in a position to provide an update on the outcome of those discussions, as I am sure all hon. Members will understand. However, I can say that survivors have made it clear that they want the inquiry, that they want the right chair to be in place and that they want to continue working with both the Government and the independent panel. I absolutely agree that all that must happen.
The discussions with survivors and their representatives are helping to form the process for appointing a new chair. The Home Secretary will also speak to the panel and parliamentarians as the process develops. We are clear on what survivors require. I can confirm that whoever the Home Secretary chooses as the new chair will be subject to a pre-confirmation hearing in front of the Home Affairs Committee.
In the meantime, nominations for the chair continue to come in to the Home Office. As has been noted, there are already more than 100 nominees on the list. We are confident that among the nominees we can find a suitable chair, someone who will command the overall confidence of survivors and be able to lead the complex and sensitive work of the inquiry.
What is the panel doing? As the Home Secretary set out in her statement to the House on 3 November, the panel will continue to go about its vital work. It is meeting weekly in the run-up to Christmas. Panel members have already attended two listening meetings with victims and survivors. Two further regional meetings will be held before Christmas, and four regional meetings will be held in the new year. The meetings will provide an early opportunity for survivors to give their views, and they will help to inform the panel on how to go about its work.
Diana Johnson
I thank the Minister for that very useful information, but I am a little concerned. Are survivors not therefore expected to give evidence to the panel? Obviously, there is no chair and the support—I hope the Minister will come on to that shortly—is not in place at the moment. Will she say a little more about the listening events?
Karen Bradley
The Home Secretary and I are obviously not instructing the panel on how to go about this exercise. The important point is that this is an early opportunity to make sure that victims and survivors can help to frame how the panel approaches the inquiry.
On the hon. Lady’s point about Government support, victims must be able to come forward to report abuse to the police and to get the support they need. If child abuse takes place, it must be thoroughly and properly investigated, and those responsible must be arrested and brought to justice. As part of a series of meetings that the Home Secretary is chairing in response to Rotherham, the Government are looking at how best to provide urgent support to victims. We are very aware that we need to make sure that there is proper and appropriate support for victims, so that they can have the confidence to come forward and we can support them when they do.
The panel is considering as a priority the best ways in which to engage with victims and survivors, and how to ensure that the right package of support is available to those who take part in the inquiry. Those giving evidence will share and relive some of the most appalling experiences anyone can live through. The panel will endeavour to make the process of giving evidence the most supportive and least traumatic for survivors that it is possible to make it.
Both the secretariat to the inquiry and officials in the Home Office are already in discussion with officials in the Department of Health, and they will work with charitable organisations, all of which have a vital part to play in making sure that the right support and counselling is available. My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park asked about whether we are working with other Departments. It is important to say that the permanent secretary has written to all Departments to tell them that they must fully support the inquiry. That information has gone out to all Departments to make sure that they are aware of the inquiry.
The panel is working on the approach it will take and the methodology it will use in the collection and analysis of information and evidence. These fundamentals for the inquiry will be the way in which it ensures that the terms of reference are met, that survivors and victims of sexual abuse are given a voice, and that that voice is heard and makes a difference for future generations. The panel is also seeking to learn lessons from the Australian royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse about what worked well and what did not.
The Home Secretary will be happy to discuss the terms of reference for the inquiry, including its territorial extent, and the composition of the panel with the new chair, when they are appointed. It is important that the inquiry be able to work fully with the devolved Administrations, including with the Hart inquiry in Northern Ireland and the Oldham inquiry in Jersey, to ensure that no information and no institution or individual with a case to answer falls through the cracks.
Ian Lucas
I wonder whether the Minister can deal with a point that I am puzzled by. I put down a parliamentary question about the Macur review and it was transferred to the Ministry of Justice for an answer. She is detailing the extent to which the Home Office will be involved in the inquiry. Will she confirm that the Home Office will be leading on this matter, because when I asked a question on the Macur review, I received an answer from the Ministry of Justice? I am confused.
Karen Bradley
Without knowing the specifics of the question, I cannot explain why it was given to the Ministry of Justice. That particular question was clearly within the portfolio of the Ministry of Justice. The Home Office is leading on this inquiry.
The shadow Minister asked about the dates that the inquiry will cover. It is true that the inquiry will consider cases from 1970 to the present. However, the panel might be presented with evidence that leads it to conclude that the time frame should be extended. The important point is that the Home Secretary is open to listening to the panel and its chair, when they are appointed, to ensure that we are covering the right period and looking at all possible avenues. The panel will provide an update on its progress to the Home Secretary before May, which she will share with the House.
The priority, of course, is to find a suitable chair to lead the hugely important work of the inquiry. As I have set out, that process is under way. I cannot give the House the date by which a new chair will be appointed, but I can say that it is a priority for the Home Secretary and the Government. We will appoint a new chair as soon as possible, but we must take the time to get it right. We must ensure that survivors have had their say and have been heard, and that parliamentarians and other interested parties have been appropriately engaged in the process so that we can all be confident that we have the right person in place to lead this once-in-a-generation opportunity to deliver justice for those who have suffered and to save other vulnerable young children from the appalling abuse that so many have endured. That is the least we can do.
Simon Danczuk
I thank the Minister for her contribution. Some of the problems that we are encountering are to do with the delay in appointing the chair, which falls fairly and squarely at the door of the Home Office. Many of the questions that hon. Members have posed about the geography and the terms of reference cannot be answered because there is no chair in place. It is therefore important that progress be made on that.
The shadow Minister made some good points and has clearly been listening to survivors of child sexual abuse. She made some constructive criticisms in discussing how we should move forward.
To finish off, I will trot through some of the contributions that have been made and highlight some important points. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) rightly mentioned Jersey. The hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) said how important it was to prevent documents from being destroyed. He also spoke about the role of the intelligence services and asked whether they will co-operate fully. It has been alleged that D notices relating to Elm guest house have been destroyed. That matter is important.
I was very interested to hear from the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford). I was not familiar with the work he had carried out in years gone by. He was right to say that this abuse was going on well before 1970. He was also right that it is not just about high-profile cases. On the contrary, much abuse is not high profile at all.
Finally, I come to the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). The question of whether the inquiry should be on a statutory footing is critical. He also spoke about help and support for survivors. He finished on an optimistic point, which we must all concentrate on, about the progress we are making not only in this place, but in getting the inquiry to move forward.
I thank all hon. Members for their contributions.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered progress of the historic child sex abuse inquiry.
West Anglia Main Line
(10 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)
Some people may think that this could be called groundhog day because I spoke in the House on this subject on 19 January 2011, and again on 11 December 2013. Apart from the passage of time not a lot has changed, except perhaps the Minister designated to reply to the debate. I could almost repeat those speeches word for word, but I might provoke an intervention from you, Mr Deputy Speaker, were I to attempt such a thing.
I acknowledge all that has been said in this Chamber and Westminster Hall by colleagues who represent the length of the West Anglia line, including the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) and my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), the hon. Members for Edmonton (Mr Love) and for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), my hon. Friends the Members for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) and for Harlow (Robert Halfon), my hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald), and particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk) who hopes to catch your eye in short while, Mr Deputy Speaker. Despite everything that has been argued, nothing fundamental has been done to improve the experience of passengers on the West Anglia line.
My concern has increased over time because the necessary remedies—which everyone acknowledges—seem to be receding into the future, and the talk is of an insufficient business case. It is no comfort to be told by Network Rail that reliability on the West Anglia line is better than on the Great Eastern line that forms part of the Abellio Greater Anglia franchise. I have constituents who rely on the Great Eastern line, and I am at one with my colleagues across East Anglia who demand action there as well, although I will not stray from the strict focus of this debate.
The 1985 decision to designate Stansted as London’s third airport should have been the trigger for investment in the West Anglia rail line. There could have been no clearer example of the meaning of the oft-used term, “integrated transport”, yet subsequent Governments have pursued policies that generate extra demand at virtually every point along the route. The airport—now under the stewardship of the Manchester Airports Group—claims that 10,000 extra jobs will be created over the next 15 years. Well, they will not be filled by people from my constituency where unemployment, I am happy to say, is below 1%. Where will all those new employees, whether at the airport or in many other burgeoning businesses in the constituency, come from, and how will they get there? I cannot imagine that we want more and more vehicles clogging the M11, and that is before one counts the rising number of airline passengers. Is no one paying attention to the projections of the Manchester Airports Group, which are more bullish than those of the Davies commission?
There is seldom any reference to freight. Stansted airport has quite a big freight centre. FedEx is perhaps the leading company, but there are also DHL, UPS, TNT and others. More and more vehicles will be coming from the centre of London along the M11. When talking of a business case, I would have thought it possible to introduce the concept of the movement of freight if more train paths can be found, but the limitation of the West Anglia line is that it has only two tracks for virtually all its length.
So far as the infrastructure is concerned, there is now the prospect of the construction of a third rail from Coppermill junction to as far as Angel Road, principally to facilitate traffic from Angel Road through to Stratford. Stratford will become a much more important terminal in the London area as the years go by, with its connection to Crossrail and continental rail traffic. I am afraid that the third rail will add very little network capacity for longer distance destination services north of Angel Road.
Another thing that could help, and which Network Rail is talking about, is the elimination of some crossings. The crossings that could help the most and that are affordable may still not add a great deal of extra leeway in terms of train acceleration to speed up journeys. That is the best that can be hoped for, but a year cannot be put on when it might be done. So that is it: the third rail and the elimination of some crossings—that is all we recognise that is on offer and on the table. For the rest, we are seemingly being told that we should be looking to control period 7, to use the jargon of Network Rail, and beyond. If fares were on hold over an equivalent indefinite period, the pain of travel might be somewhat eased. However, if my right hon. Friend were to announce that this afternoon, I think I would keel over in shock. The rolling stock, on which my constituents are obliged to travel, is of mixed vintage, so when I refer to the pain of travel there is an extra point to it.
It is clear that Network Rail is not on the cusp of recommending action in control period 6 for the four-tracking of the line as far as Broxbourne, which everyone, including Network Rail itself, knows is necessary. Network Rail says that with longer trains and longer platforms it can “cope” with extra demand. That’s comforting, isn’t it? Just like, for example, it is coping so well with the basic fragility of the infrastructure, and just like it coped so well with overcoming a signalling fault outside Liverpool Street station this morning, which held up many trains by 20 minutes.
I am really not expecting the case for four-tracking to be accepted through a cast-iron guarantee this afternoon, however good and generous we know my right hon. Friend to be, but we can ease the pain of travel if passengers have a better train experience. The complications over franchising, with the need to have another stop-gap franchise before a long franchise is let, have made it difficult for the train operator, Abellio Greater Anglia, to commit to new rolling stock. Only yesterday, it announced a whole series of measures to help the passenger experience across its whole network. The one item directed towards the West Anglia line is what it is pleased to call a “refresh” for 24 class 317 type 6 trains, which are known in the trade as 317/6s. What does the word “refresh” conjure up? I felt it was a bit like the ugly sisters glamming up for the ball: these are very old and very ugly trains. There is talk that about 24 trains may be refreshed, but what about the 317/5s, 317/7s and 317/8s, which add up to another 27 sets of trains that are part of the staple stock running on the West Anglia line? However, no action has been promised.
I would appreciate it if my right hon. Friend reaffirmed the promise given by my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), on 11 December 2013, when he was Under-Secretary of State, that the 10 type 379 units—the only modern ones we have—would stay on Cambridge services. Passengers understand the difference between standard class and first class, but with the rich variety of trains on the West Anglia line, there are 10 classes, which is not reflected in the fare structure. Standard class on a type 379 is a very different experience from standard class on a 316/5—and probably a 317/6 even when it has been refreshed.
I do not include the inner-suburban stock, the type 315s, because they are going to be replaced. The Mayor and Transport for London have been granted the franchise to take suburban routes from Liverpool Street station into the Overground, and for that there will be 30 brand-new train sets. So inner-London services—I do not begrudge them—are getting decent trains, whereas the people who pay more and travel further and too often longer are not being offered new trains.
If Network Rail is to “cope”—its highest ambition—with the extra demand by adding coaches to trains, where will they come from? I beg my right hon. Friend not to mention cascading type 319 trains from Thameslink, which are also quite old. The new Thameslink franchise is being fitted out with new trains, but not before 2018, so if the only new trains are the type 319s, we will be getting 30-year-old trains, and they probably only offer one class—and it is not first class. Crossrail is also getting new trains, so the only people not guaranteed new trains are the passengers to Harlow, Bishop’s Stortford, Audley End, Whittlesford Parkway, Shelford, Cambridge and all the stations in my constituency; we will be the Cinderella line. For the reasons I have adduced, we absolutely deserve new trains and no longer hand-me-downs.
What needs to be done has been staring us in the face since 1985 when that airport decision was made. However, waiting for this to be nailed down by a business case has allowed nearly 30 years and eight Governments to pass without anything meaningful being done. The Government need to acknowledge this depressing situation—if Ministers are uncertain, they should travel on the line—and then give some direction, not more interminable studies that we are tired of responding to without getting anywhere.
Inevitably and understandably, there will be a wait before extra track capacity can be put in place, but while we wait, let us at least have the palliative of decent trains. The way to do that is by having a high-quality specification for the long franchise being let in 2016 for the Greater Anglia services demanding new trains, not something at the lowest end of the scale.
That is the situation. This is the third impassioned plea I have made in a speech for the benefit of my constituents and the many other people travelling to and from the airport. The airport deserves a good service—I do not begrudge that—but those who are paying most often at the highest prices need the best of services. That is what I am looking for—some promise and some indication that that is recognised and will happen in the relatively near future.
Mr Mark Prisk (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) not only on securing this debate, but on bringing his typically forensic expertise, about which close watchers of this House will know, to a subject that is dear to the heart of his constituents and mine. Indeed, we have worked together to champion this cause because it directly affects the daily lives of thousands of our constituents.
I recently surveyed my own constituents on this issue, looking for the specific bugbears they have. It was a long list and I will not bore you with it, Mr Deputy Speaker. The overwhelming view of people in East Hertfordshire and in north-west Essex, as we have heard, is very clear: they regard this service as being very expensive, hugely overcrowded and, I am sorry to say, all too often unreliable. Those are sentiments with which I strongly associate myself.
The Minister needs to know that we are not alone in this. Members representing areas along the line from Cambridge through Essex and Hertfordshire into London are now joining us to press for this investment—an investment, as we have heard, that is long overdue. It is a cause that is gaining momentum. In the last few months, we have seen an increasing number of major employers and now a majority of local authorities, together with local enterprise partnerships, saying, “We need this investment in the rolling stock and in the four-tracking.”
The occasion of this debate follows the publication of what I would regard as an incomplete and, frankly, inadequate draft route study recently published by Network Rail. I am sorry to say that the study fails to address the fundamental problems on the line. Indeed, it seems completely detached from the realities of the overcrowding already in evidence for most of our constituents. To be fair, the draft route study has a few suggestions about some helpful incremental improvements, but it does nothing to address the lack of capacity and, in particular, the tracking into Liverpool Street.
Just as importantly, and perhaps of equal concern to the Department, is the fact that this study by Network Rail ignores the recommendations of the Airports Commission for the four-tracking of the line to improve the links to Stansted airport. Given that Stansted is designated by the Department—and, indeed, by the Government—as London’s third airport, this oversight seems completely unacceptable. Just as bad for my constituents is the admission of the authors of the study that it
“does not fully reflect potential housing growth projections in the Upper Lea Valley and the wider impacts on economic growth”.
Some people estimate that the population along this corridor from London to Cambridge will rise by approximately 1 million people in the coming years. For Network Rail not to factor in that scale of development and population growth makes this draft study a joke, frankly. So what needs to be done?
I urge the Minister to commission a full feasibility study to push Network Rail into doing what it should have done so that we can see a whole range of investment options for the line, including four-tracking. Some 13 options were offered for the great eastern line, while we were offered a paltry three. As my right hon. Friend described, most were short term and none addressed the principal challenge. Only a full study setting out all the options would provide the evidence base essential to good ministerial decision-making.
Locally, of course, we believe that new rolling stock and four-tracking are essential. We know that they would ensure a service that is fit for purpose now and for the future, while enabling the sort of job creation and rates of economic growth that the Government rightly seek. Conversely, without a proper study, Ministers would become vulnerable, as any decision that they made on future investment would not be based on clear—
Mr Prisk
As I was saying, I fear that Ministers would become vulnerable if their decisions were not based on clear and complete evidence. Were that the case, those decisions would be open to challenge—politically, of course, but, who knows, perhaps legally as well.
If sustainable development policies are to be meaningful and robust, more homes and businesses must surely come with the additional infrastructure. I suggest that it is in the interests of not just our constituents—who must, of course, come first—but of the Government to ensure that Ministers have the facts on which to make the right decision, whether it be in the franchise letting next year or in control period 6 for infrastructure investment. I know that the Minister likes to have sound evidence on which to act. His Secretary of State certainly does, and he has already made clear to my right hon. Friend in the House that the West Anglia route will not be forgotten.
I ask the Minister to acknowledge the inadequacies of the draft route study and to press for a full feasibility study, so that the evidence can be seen in the round and the right decisions can be made.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John Hayes)
C.S. Lewis, the House will remember, was “Surprised by Joy”: surprised by the joy of the love of God, and surprised by the mortal love of the woman who subsequently became his wife. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) will be surprised by the joy of my response tonight—perhaps as surprised as I am to be rail Minister for the day.
Taking full advantage of this space and this opportunity, perhaps we can make more progress than my right hon. Friend has made so far—despite, I must add, his consistent advocacy of the interests of his constituents. He mentioned that he had raised this matter many times. That is well known to the House, but what he did not mention, because his humility prevented him from so doing, was that he has always raised it both with immense courtesy and with absolute determination. In my experience, that combination is what enables us to get things done here. Let us hope that I can demonstrate that to my right hon. Friend in my response.
I also welcomed the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), with whom I served as a Minister. I know that he too is a doughty champion of his constituents’ interests, as well as being an accomplished Member of the House.
Let me say at the outset that I have a script prepared by the civil servants, to which I will refer but by which I will not be constrained. It is not good enough not to reply to these debates properly, and replying to them properly means responding to the points made by the contributors.
My right hon. Friend spoke about a Cinderella service. Tonight, I want Cinderella to go to the ball. He also spoke about the pain of travel, which I found quite poignant. Is it not sad that we have to talk about the pain of travel? Nevertheless, my right hon. Friend is right. Travel is all too often seen in those terms—not by Members, but by the people who must endure congested roads, overcrowded trains, and an inadequate transport infrastructure. The Government are determined to do better precisely because of our understanding of that. The record levels of investment in our railway and road networks show that we understand how much travel means, to economic growth—that point was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford—but also to our individual and collective well-being. People travel for a range of purposes: they travel to work and to school, but also recreationally. Travel should be a joy, not a pain.
Let me turn to some of the particular things that have been raised. To begin, it may be helpful to explain, for the benefit of the whole House, that the West Anglia main line is the route between London Liverpool Street, Stansted airport and Cambridge. At present, it is mainly a two-track railway serving commuters from Cambridgeshire, Essex and north-east London. The Stansted Express links central London with one of the UK’s major airports using the West Anglia main line structure.
That significant range of demands means that there is a high and constant demand for rail services on a line with, as has been said, limited capacity. There are no signs that that demand is likely to decrease. Indeed, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford said, the economic growth that we seek as part of the Government’s long-term plan to deliver prosperity to the whole nation, and the immense range of economic, social and cultural activities in that part of our great nation, suggest that, if anything, demand is likely to increase. So, this debate is apposite.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden is aware, many of the services operating on the West Anglia main line use new, “class 379” rolling stock. As he said, they are more modern, comfortable units, offering air conditioning, on-board passenger information systems, ample space for luggage and provision for wheelchair users. Those trains are principally used on the Cambridge and Stansted Express services, meaning his constituents are particular beneficiaries. However, as he said, not all of them, all of the time, are able to take advantage of those better services. It is important, therefore, that we look at what we can do to improve the other trains on the line.
My right hon. Friend mentioned the “refresh” programme. Untypically for him, that was parodied rather. I thought there was a touch of irony in his use of the term, but I am determined that it should be a real refurbishment. I have made it clear in my Department this afternoon that I want our trains to look and feel good so that the quality of the journey improves and the pain that he described becomes the joy that I seek.
I do not see any reason why trains should not look good, why the livery of trains should not be right, or why the circumstances in which people travel should not be edifying and enjoyable. That programme, which includes the replacement of seat covers and the improvement of train interiors, needs to be meaningful and comprehensive. In my role as rail Minister for the day, I have done all I can to ensure that that occurs. It is not enough to have a cursory makeover; a proper refurbishment needs to take place.
The improvements that we make to rolling stock are tied to the acquisition of new stock. My right hon. Friend made it clear that he fears—I understand why he said this—that the new rolling stock may not necessarily be of the right order, so I make clear my view that it is important that it is. We cannot prejudge exactly where that stock will come from, but we certainly do not want what we have to be made worse. To put that another way, we cannot miss the opportunity to make what we have better. I certainly want the acquisition of the new rolling stock to be of the right order so that the quality of service that people enjoy is enhanced.
Sir Alan Haselhurst
When I talk of new rolling stock, I expect it to come from the manufacturers, not from somewhere it has been operating for a number of years. I am grateful for what my right hon. Friend is saying, but I understand that retention tanks cannot be fitted under the on-board lavatories of the class 317 stock, and there are 51 units. Those trains may stay in service longer, with brighter paintwork and better seat covers, but there is that horrible disadvantage, which is manifested quite disgustingly at Liverpool Street station.
Mr Hayes
That is a powerful and vivid illustration of how railway journeys can be less than edifying and less than enjoyable. I shall certainly ask my officials to give that consideration and see what can be done, although I hear what my right hon. Friend says about some of the constraints on the ability to make the necessary improvements. I am generally of the view—I am well off-script here—that if we want to do things, we can do them, and I think we might have to go the extra mile in these terms. I am more than happy to tell my right hon. Friend that following this debate, I shall ask my officials to see what that extra mile would look like to satisfy his requirements
In addition to the established demand along the line that I have spoken of, additional demand is growing, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford said, in the lower Lea valley of north-east London. For that reason, the Government’s rail investment strategy has provided approximately £80 million to deliver three and four-tracking at the southern end of the route. This investment will facilitate the introduction of new services, as well as improve operational reliability. It will support regeneration in the lower Lea valley, including the major development at Meridian Water near Angel Road. Led by Network Rail, this upgrade will be delivered by 2019 and will be compatible with any subsequent enhancements of the capacity of the route, an important matter to which I shall return shortly.
As my right hon. Friend is aware, demand is also growing on the northern end of the West Anglia main line. In particular, Cambridge is a regional economic powerhouse, making a significant and increasing contribution to the local and national economy. For this reason, Cambridge station itself is in the process of a significant redevelopment, including having a new ticket hall and additional cycle parking facilities.
My Department is also working with Network Rail and Cambridgeshire county council to develop plans for a new station to the north of Cambridge, at Chesterton. As well as providing direct access to the rapidly expanding science park, this station would relieve some of the rail congestion at Cambridge, with operational and performance benefits right along the West Anglia main line.
Within my right hon. Friend’s constituency, I am aware that passengers travelling to and from Audley End station also now benefit from full step-free access between platforms, following the installation of lifts. In addition, there is excellent rolling stock now operating on the route, which we will add to further, and I hope my right hon. Friend will agree that the Government and the rail industry are making good progress in improving the experience of his constituents at least in that regard, although I hear that he rightly argues on their behalf that we can do more.
I have already highlighted the key limitation of the West Anglia main line—that it is a very busy, principally two-track, railway. I very much hope that the Government’s commitment to three and four-tracking some southern sections demonstrates our determination to improve capacity on the route. However, I recognise the strong aspirations of my right hon. Friend and other Members for faster and more frequent services, and enhancements which would require further infrastructure interventions. I would now like to discuss that issue, because my right hon. Friend’s speech was in two parts, the first about the pain of travel and the condition of the rolling stock and other matters, and the second about the need to meet demand through improved capacity.
To begin with, I would like to explain that major investments in the railway are funded on the basis of five-year funding cycles known as control periods. We are currently in control period 5—my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford mentioned this—which began earlier this year and will run until 2019. During this control period, the Government are providing Network Rail and the rest of the rail industry with more than £16 billion of funding to upgrade and enhance the networks in England and Wales. It is from this funding pot, known as the Government’s rail investment strategy, that the lower Lea valley upgrades I have already referred to will be funded. The process for identifying possible investments and upgrades for the next control period—control period 6, which will run from 2019 to 2024—has recently begun. There are therefore opportunities for my right hon. Friend, other Members and the public in general to contribute to the process and influence the Government’s next rail investment strategy.
As Yeats said:
“Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking.”
In regard to the West Anglia main line, the draft Anglia route study has recently been put out for consultation, and I want to emphasise that this is a draft for consultation. I note the remarks that my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend have made about its imperfections and limits, and I emphasise again that it is not set in stone. It will evolve, and I want to receive representations that will contribute to its evolution. We will make adjustments to it as we listen and learn throughout the consultation period. Tonight’s debate represents an important contribution to that process.
The rail industry’s emerging view is that the future level of demand expected on the West Anglia main line can be met through the lengthening of certain peak Cambridge and Stansted airport services. However, there are other views on the ways to meet the demand, and I want to hear them. I am not satisfied that there is just one single take on this. We have heard from my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend, who speak on the matter with great expertise, and they take a rather different view of how the demand should be met. I want that view to be heard loud and clear in my Department and across the rail industry.
The emerging view on control period 6 has been articulated and published by Network Rail in good faith, based on the information available to it, but it is an emerging view, a draft and a consultation. I do not want anyone to assume that it is definitive, or that the Government take it as read that that is the only way forward. Responses to the consultation will feed into the final version of the Anglia route study, which is due to be published in the middle of next year. That will then help to inform the Government’s priorities for the next rail investment strategy, for the period 2019 to 2024—control period 6.
Mr Prisk
I am grateful to the Minister for what he has said; he has been very helpful. I am waiting, as I am sure you are, Mr Deputy Speaker, for him to introduce a John Betjeman quote into the debate—literary man that he is—but before that, I am keen to learn more about the problem of unreliable or incomplete evidence resulting in subsequent decisions being open to challenge. None of us wants or needs that. We want clarity, evidence, good decisions and investment. Does he accept that there could be a real problem for the Department if the evidence were incomplete as a result of a poor route study, leading to subsequent decisions proving unreliable?
Mr Hayes
My hon. Friend must wait until the very last few lines of my speech—which I hope will be as poetic as Betjeman; they will certainly be as joyful as Lewis—when I will respond directly to that point.
We will set out options for upgrades until 2043, including the option for four-tracking the West Anglia main line, Crossrail 2 and increased services to and from Stansted airport. It seems inevitable to me that, ultimately, we will need to greatly increase the capacity of the line to keep pace with growing demand. Again, all responses to Network Rail’s consultation, which ends on 3 February next year, and all views on the longer-term funding priorities are very much encouraged.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford made the following point, on which I wish to conclude. He said that the Government should act on the basis of clear and robust evidence, and called for a full feasibility study. That is a perfectly reasonable request. It is not in the script prepared for me by my civil servants, but if he is to be “Surprised by Joy”, they should be surprised, too, when I say that I am more than happy to invite him, my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden and other interested parties, including local authorities and the local business representatives, to the Department to discuss what that kind of study might look like. That proposal is perfectly compatible with the consultation we have described. Indeed, it would frame a response to the consultation, which would combine many of the points made in this short debate, so my final surprise is not to quote Betjeman, but hon. Members will recall, thinking of Christmas, the line:
“A cold coming we had of it”.
I end rather more warmly, in welcoming the chance to make that new commitment to my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend, and to ensure that the pain is replaced by the joy of travel.
Question put and agreed to.
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Food Security
(10 years ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to welcome you to the Chair, Mr Hood, and to welcome my hon. Friend the Minister, the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), and colleagues on the Select Committee to their places. We are very pleased to have the opportunity presented by this debate. On a personal note, I represent what is probably one of the most rural constituencies in the country, not just the north of England, of which livestock production and farming form a vital part.
The Select Committee decided to inquire into and report on food security, looking at food production and supply, for a number of reasons. There are particularly challenging and changing—volatile—market conditions at the moment. The inquiry took place against the backdrop of “Horsegate”, as I shall call it for short. I am referring to the adulteration of food with horsemeat that took place. Also relevant are the current global economic conditions, as witnessed by the sanctions against Russia, and the emerging markets—new markets—in China and elsewhere. Also, after a brief visit to Brussels last week, a number of us are better informed about how the European market is changing, with the removal of quotas for milk and the sugar regime facing change as well.
I should like to highlight one or two of the main aspects of the report and to thank those who contributed to the inquiry, which we launched in October 2013. We received 50 written submissions and, earlier this year, held five oral evidence sessions. We are grateful to all those who contributed.
Obviously, the farming—agricultural—and food sector is hugely important and successful. The food and drink sector is responsible for 3.7 million jobs and 7% of the overall economy. At the outset, it is fair to say that there is a danger of complacency. When we looked into food production and the supply dimension of food security, we found that complacency is a genuine risk to future UK food security. We want our food production and supply systems to be secure, in which case the Government and food producers must plan to deal with the impacts of climate change, population growth and increasing global demand for food, so what we are examining today are clear lines of Government responsibility.
We set out that at least three Departments are responsible for food security. They are the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department of Energy and Climate Change. We asked, to ensure coherent planning and action, that the overall strategy be led by DEFRA, with a robust approach right across Whitehall. May I say, in again welcoming the Minister to his place, that I can think of no one better than him or his predecessors to take that role? However, he is particularly well placed, having served with such distinction on the Select Committee previously. I shall return to that.
In our report, we support the idea of sustainable intensification—producing more food with fewer resources—and we call on DEFRA to stem the decline in UK self-sufficiency and deliver more resilience in the UK food system. We note that the yields of key cereal crops—for example, wheat—have not increased for more than 15 years. The most conservative figures—I am a Conservative with a small c and a large C—are, I think that we can accurately say, the National Farmers Union figures, which I think are more recent even than the ones in our report. In 2013, we were running at only 60% self-sufficiency in food production; it was 62% in 2012. That is down from the height, in 1991, of more than 75%.
Clearly, the fact that self-sufficiency is on a downward spiral is of some concern. There are a number of reasons for that. We say that the biggest long-term challenge to food production systems is the impact of extreme weather events resulting from climate change, so we call for supermarkets to shorten supply chains to reduce the threat of disruption and for UK farmers to extend the seasonal production of fresh fruit and vegetables in co-ordination with the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board and local and central Government. The Government must reduce dependence on imported soya bean for animal feed, as increased demand for protein from emerging economies threatens current supply lines.
The Government should also produce a detailed emissions reduction plan for the UK agricultural sector. If we are to curb emissions and adjust to climate change, we need a significant shift, potentially, in how the UK produces its food. Currently, livestock production contributes 49% of farm-related emissions, so we need more research to identify ways to curb that.
We need the better longer-term weather forecasts that successive Governments have worked on—I welcome that work—and more resilient production systems to cope with severe weather events. We particularly welcome the Government’s new £160 million agri-tech strategy to translate technological ideas into farm practices, but I shall add a plea on that. The current funding levels, as they were put to us, are insufficient and the time scale is very limited. When we visited the Rothamsted institute, we were told that the last two years of the five-year term are spent accessing and applying for the grants to ensure that the very valuable work that these research institutes are doing carries on. We looked at precision farming technologies as an example of good research but one that needs commercial partners to make it viable.
Let me deal with a number of these points in turn and against the backdrop of self-sufficiency going backwards rather than forwards. We are looking in the current inquiry at food security: demand, consumption and waste. We are about to report, we hope, on our second inquiry, which is about bringing food to market and actually to the table.
I welcome the fact that supply chains have shortened. I particularly welcome the excellent work done by Professor Chris Elliott in that regard. However, a number of issues remain. Looking at the UK food system within the EU and internationally, can the Minister explain the reasoning behind not having an individual such as him as the Minister responsible, with a specific profile for co-ordinating food security and food supply policy across Government? That would be very welcome. We spent considerable time, in the evidence that we took and in the conclusions that we reached, on the fact that that single development would make a major impact.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
I intervene only to reinforce the point that the Chair of our Select Committee is making, because this was one of our key discussions. Knowing how successful this Government have been in one or two other Departments where there are cross-departmental working parties, although mostly chaired by the Cabinet, does she agree that we did feel very strongly that the Minister at DEFRA should be the lead for any such joint working arrangement in government, because of the significance of food and agriculture and the need for that Minister to lead the rest of the Government on the policies that the hon. Lady is very ably outlining?
Miss McIntosh
I could not have expressed it better myself. Against the backdrop of self-sufficiency falling over the past 20 years, and potentially going backwards, we have BIS in charge of research institutes and DECC dealing with the climate change angle. The Committee was absolutely united on that powerful recommendation. We owe it to our witnesses and those whom we visited to extract an explanation from the Minister of why that was not deemed to be appropriate. If the Government would keep the matter under review, that would be very welcome.
The range of actions that the Government and others are undertaking to improve co-ordination is good, especially on cross-sector soils research. Will the Minister outline DEFRA’s plans for promoting the export of products such as apricots, which now have a longer growing season? How can the Department encourage other crop growers to extend their seasons? That would provide opportunities for further growth and more exports, which would build on the success that we have seen.
I would like to spend a moment on the common agricultural policy and greening issues. We heard evidence from the Secretary of State yesterday, and I am absolutely delighted that the Government are looking again at the three-crop rule. Having met the incoming EU Agriculture Commissioner last week, I believe that he is a potential ally who has a great understanding of and background in farming. The review of the CAP to which he has committed in 2017 is particularly welcome. The fact that the commissioner has said that food security is the Commission’s priority must give more grist to the Government’s mill and ensure that that remains the case. In the short term following the adulteration of beef with horsemeat, supply chains were made shorter, and that must be kept under review.
Farmers and NFU representatives have criticised the complexity of the CAP, which was meant to be simple. They have criticised in particular the effectiveness of the ecological focus areas. Does the fact that there will be an early review offer us an opportunity? What discussions are the Minister and the Secretary of State having with the commissioner on the potential for reviewing the CAP and introducing a swift review of problems such as the ineffective ecological focus areas and the three-crop rule? The higher CAP modulation rate in England will penalise our farmers more than those in other parts of the United Kingdom and the EU, so perhaps the Minister would be so good as to comment on that.
Turning to the UK’s international role, the Government said in their response to the report that they were collaborating through the Courtauld commitment on the challenge of reducing food waste, on which the UK is a world leader. They are looking at the matter in more detail and will respond further in due course. The Committee was struck by the fact that soya beans are the main feedstock for our animals, and that the supply is coming under increasing pressure because of competition from emerging economies. May I press the Minister for assurances that action will be taken to avoid any possible crisis in animal feed supplies? How are we encouraging alternatives to soya as a source of protein?
On the challenge of climate change, which may have an impact on farming and other industries, we have seen the latest targets and the framework from the EU. May I press the Minister on the outcomes that will be required from the 2014 to 2020 rural development plan, and from the expenditure under that plan on emission reductions? How will that impact on farming, and how will the Government ensure that the most cost-effective actions are taken first? I particularly welcome the soil protection work, but what outcomes does the Minister expect from the £5 million that has been put into soil security work and when does he expect to see them? When might he be able to report on that? What input is DEFRA having into EU soil protection work?
Our report’s core recommendation related to improving the resilience of supply chains. When we heard evidence recently from Professor Elliott, we were able to thank him in person for his work, and we are delighted that the Government have accepted all his recommendations. Shorter supply chains minimise the threat of disruption. In our report on food contamination, the Committee expressed concern about the length of food supply chains, and we welcome the work that retailers have done to reduce them. Where are we in relation to the cross-government group on food integrity? Where are we on labelling and traceability at an EU level? Will the Minister look kindly on a review of the groceries code and the adjudicator’s role, which currently makes no provision for an investigation without a formal complaint? Will that remit be reviewed and could it be changed? Will the Minister look kindly on the idea of introducing, as a matter of urgency, the statutory instrument that would empower the adjudicator to levy fines? It was something of a shock when we realised that such a statutory instrument had been neither laid nor adopted, so effectively the groceries code adjudicator has no teeth. Can the Minister tell us whether there an appetite in government to press for such a change, although I realise that BIS probably leads on that issue?
The Government response included a commitment to monitoring the agri-tech catalyst. How will that monitoring work and will it lead to action? Will the Minister elaborate on the findings? It is vital that we get a decision on genetic modification one way or the other. Will the Minister update us on progress at an EU level? We have looked at the matter, and I remain to be convinced on GM, but it is important that we have a framework at EU level.
The Government response said that both the Government and industry had started to address the findings of the future of farming review, especially in relation to new entrants to the industry, reducing bureaucracy and the red tape challenge. What more can the Government do to encourage new entrants, particularly young farmers, into the sector? It is no secret that the average age of farmers is relatively high compared with people in other walks of life and industries. Neither is it a secret that farming and fisheries remain two of the most dangerous industries. Farmers work in all weathers, sometimes using very complicated bits of kit. They work hard, against the elements and in the face of a constant stream of regulation, to bring food to our plates and to export as much as possible. I would welcome an update from the Minister on the Government’s plans to introduce more support for young farmers and the likely cost of doing that. How does he believe that we can entice young farmers and new entrants into the programme? One of the barriers to new entrants has to be the lack of broadband coverage in especially rural areas, and I know that we will have the opportunity to quiz the Minister about that separately.
I am very proud of our work on the food security report and I commend our conclusions to the House. I am concerned that we face the challenge of increasing food insecurity and a potential downward spiral of self-sufficiency. Lessons have been learned from “Horsegate”. We need shorter supply chains and to recognise the challenge of climate change and an increasing population, which works both ways, as there will be more mouths to feed and we are in a particularly good place to feed them. I would like consumers to be going out and buying British. I am particularly disappointed that a major retailer—I will not name it—has chosen to move away from the red tractor system. The red tractor is a symbol that food has been produced in Britain to the highest possible animal welfare standards and meets the farm-assured test. To move away from it is a retrograde step, and I hope that that supermarket chain will hang its head in shame and reconsider that decision.
We must increase self-sufficiency at home and increase opportunities to export. I welcome this opportunity to discuss the report, and I commend to you, Mr Hood, the conclusions that we have reached.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Hood, and I am delighted to follow the Chair of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh). She says that she represents one of the most rural constituencies, if not the most rural, in the country; I represent probably one of the most urban, with Canary Wharf in the south half and Tower Hamlets in the north. When I was appointed Minister at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, I was attacked in the Daily Mail and The Daily Telegraph as a veggie and a townie: “What does he know about the countryside?” Fortunately, the National Farmers Union was much more pragmatic and generous, and I think I can say that I built up a positive working relationship with it during my year in office. It is a pleasure to see the shadow Minister and the Minister in their places. I look forward to hearing their comments.
“Food security” conjures up three things for me: security of international supply, UK self-sufficiency, and the honesty and integrity of the food that we eat. The hon. Lady mentioned the reduction in the percentage of food produced in the UK. I do not think that that is a major problem. British farming should have opportunities and challenges to produce and sell more, but most important to feeding the nation is ensuring that international supply lines are strong and varied, and that our food has integrity. The horsemeat scandal has been mentioned, and I will return to it later. Internationally, hunger and death from starvation is still a major world scourge. There is food poverty within the UK as well, with a growing number of people dependent on food banks across the country.
Food security is not about self-sufficiency alone; it is about safeguarding against failing harvests, disease and climate change, all of which can disrupt supply. It is positive that the Government accept many of the recommendations from the EFRA Committee; there is much consensus about food, production and standards. If I may sound one discordant note, it is my disappointment that the Government dropped the Food 2030 strategy worked out by the last Government. It was well researched, science-based and evidence-led, and it was a medium to long-term map for how the UK could progress over the 20 years after it was produced. Obviously, however, the Government have their own programme to promote and follow.
I would like to mention two items before referring to some of the recommendations in the report; I do not intend to speak for very long. One is milk and dairy. The Committee is examining the issue in a short inquiry, and the all-party parliamentary group on dairy has been holding its own inquiry for the past three weeks, with two or three still to go. With world production at record levels, the price of milk is dropping, and Russian sanctions are affecting our ability to compete in the world market. Obviously, there is great concern in the dairy industry about the future of dairy, and it would be interesting if the Minister could comment on what the Government are doing to help the dairy sector get through this period of massive world production and difficulties with sanctions.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that although retailers, distributors and processors have a duty to the bottom line, to shareholders and to consumers to put affordable milk and milk products on the shelves, they also have a duty to the integrity of the UK supply chain? Without the UK supply chain, they would not have milk and milk products to put on shelves. There should be transparency, but there should also be a fair deal for dairy producers.
Jim Fitzpatrick
My hon. Friend makes a strong point. As the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton said a few moments ago, UK retailers should show some solidarity and loyalty to UK producers. I will come to the transparency of prices in a moment when I cover recommendation 21.
The second issue that I will mention, which was also mentioned briefly by the hon. Lady, is the European sugar regime and the sugar quota. In east London we have Tate & Lyle, the biggest cane refinery in the world. Beet production is doing well, but the market might fluctuate. Tate & Lyle is struggling to deal with the unfairness of the new regime. I know that UKRep in Brussels has been lobbying, and that the Select Committee raised the matter when it met the commissioner and the appropriate officials last week. Does the Minister have any sight of how that discussion is going, and can he comment on any discussions that he has had with our officials in Brussels, or with Brussels officials, on the sugar quota and the sugar regime?
I will run briefly through a few of our recommendations. Recommendation 15 was mentioned by the hon. Lady. Any updates that the Minister can give us on greenhouse gases would be welcome. The Chair of the Select Committee recommended Professor Elliott’s report. Last week, when Professor Elliott gave evidence, was the first time that I had met him. He is a hugely impressive individual. To the Government’s credit, they accepted all the recommendations in his report, which is extremely welcome. It will furnish Government policy and the working of our Committee for a considerable time ahead. The hon. Lady mentioned the fact, which emerged in this week’s evidence session, that the statutory instrument on fines that the groceries code adjudicator could level against transgressors has not been laid before Parliament. If the Minister cannot say anything about that today, we would be delighted if he could do so on Tuesday when he comes before the Committee. He is bound to be asked about it, as the Secretary of State was yesterday.
On the point raised by my hon. Friend the shadow Minister about fairness and transparency, one issue that has come up several times in the all-party dairy group’s examination of dairy is the apparent lack of transparency and openness in pricing. Everybody knows what the farmer is being paid for their produce, and what the consumer is paying in our supermarkets and shops, but how we get from the farm-gate price to the retail price is still shrouded in mystery. There seems to be no direct relationship between the two. It would be interesting if the Minister had any comments on that, as numerous colleagues will be pressing him on that in the months ahead. The other issue raised was whether there might be a role for the adjudicator in initiating investigations rather than just responding to them, as she does at the moment. That will clearly require an amendment to the law. If the Minister has any comments on that, I would certainly be interested to hear them.
Lastly, recommendation 29 is on genetic modification, which the hon. Lady mentioned. The Committee recommendation asked questions about Government support for genetically modified food and whether there is an information campaign to create balance in the public’s mind about what GM can and cannot do. Comments in the report and the Government’s response ask whether the European Parliament will consider the matter in due course, and whether the Minister expects the European Parliament to agree to the Commission’s change of policy on GM; that is also of interest.
Food security is critical to the well-being of our species and the planet. It should be central to Government policy. As the hon. Lady said, the Minister here should be the Government lead on that policy. I look forward to the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck), my hon. Friend the shadow Minister and the Minister. The Committee has produced an excellent report, if we say so ourselves. It has some excellent recommendations, of which the Government have accepted quite a number, and we are keen to hear what colleagues have to say about it.
Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood, and to follow our very knowledgeable Select Committee Chair, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), and my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), who is also a fount of knowledge on all things farming and environmental.
I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak in today’s debate. The Committee’s food security inquiry was wide-ranging and there are a number of important points to discuss. In fact, once the inquiry was under way, we quickly realised that there are so many issues at play in this debate that considering them all within one report would be a huge task, so we decided to split the report into two parts. Today we are discussing issues around food supply, but I hope that we will also have an opportunity to debate the second report once it is published.
As a member of the all-party inquiry into hunger and food poverty, I have taken part in a number of evidence sessions and visits this year, speaking to food bank charities and to those people who rely on food aid. That aspect of food security is vital to understanding the full picture, since those people are the ones most affected by changing food prices.
As our inquiry heard, falling incomes, benefit cuts and a cruel sanctions regime imposed by this Government are leaving more people at the mercy of rising living costs. It is also fair to say that general public awareness about how we source our food is higher than it has been for some time, not only because of the rise in food poverty and the attention that that has received in the press, but because of the horsemeat scandal and the review by Professor Elliott that followed.
I will make a few points about that review, since it was published after our Committee’s report. It highlighted the lack of co-ordination between different bodies on food fraud, and the confusion of responsibilities when the scandal first came to the public’s attention. The creation of a new cross-departmental committee and the new food crime unit are designed to address that situation. However, as Professor Elliott said in his evidence to the Committee last week, it is essential that that unit has the resources that it needs, and that there are systems in place to ensure that it can co-operate fully with our police forces.
Professor Elliott also stressed the need to clarify the responsibilities of the Food Standards Agency and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, although he stopped short of repeating his interim recommendation that food authenticity be brought under the FSA’s remit. That disappointed many people, including Labour Members. It is true that, as the professor told us in his evidence, this point had become politicised, but I would argue that it was politicised even at the time of his interim report, and I would not be surprised to learn that Government pressure had something to do with the changes in the final report.
However, there are also positives to take from the final report. Professor Elliott reports significant improvements in the way that both the industry and local authorities inspect food. He also reported on a positive change of culture that has made food safety and authenticity a higher priority at all levels, from Government right down to the consumer. Those changes are all very welcome. Before the horsemeat scandal, food safety and authenticity were not issues that were high on many people’s list of priorities. That is not the case any more, and there is a genuine will out there to tackle these issues. What is important now is to make sure that we have the resources and the infrastructure that are necessary to monitor food fraud effectively. Our Committee made clear recommendations about the need to maintain capacity in public laboratories. I hope that, in his response to the debate, the Minister can explain briefly what action the Government are taking in this area.
I now turn back to the Committee’s food security report. It was surprising that the Government did not accept the case for appointing a food security co-ordinator with clear responsibility for food security. If we apply the lessons of the horsemeat scandal, we can see that this kind of leadership really matters. If nobody has clear responsibility for food security, it is likely to become a secondary concern, at least until something goes wrong. Having such a co-ordinator is particularly important when it comes to food security because, as our Committee has seen, the food security picture is incredibly complex, with a huge number of factors affecting both supply and demand. Food security is not something that we can address in a piecemeal way. It needs a joined-up approach that runs throughout our environmental, trade and science policy. I hope that, in his response, the Minister can go into a bit more detail on why the Government did not feel it was necessary to appoint a dedicated co-ordinator for food security policy.
Another point I wanted to raise briefly was about climate change and resilience. Last winter’s floods showed the damaging effects of extreme weather, and although much of the media coverage focused on residential areas, agriculture was a big victim too. As the climate continues to change, the risk to farmers will increase, and that is why our Committee has called for DEFRA to reconsider the way it allocates resources for flood management, so that farmland does not lose out to residential areas when it comes to flood protection.
We know that climate change is happening. Just this morning, it was reported that the impact of flooding is likely to be four times higher in the next century than it is now, so we can anticipate the kind of challenges that we will face in future. Last winter was the warmest in centuries, and it is predicted that what is currently a one-in-20-year rainfall event will be happening every 10 years by 2050.
The emergency funding that the Government provided after last winter’s floods did a lot of good, but we should not just wait for extreme weather to come along and then pay for the damage. We need the Government to be proactive in strengthening our flood defences. That is why I remain concerned that funding for flood defence has gone backwards under this Government, receiving a boost only after the events of last winter. Until that wake-up call, funding for flood protection had been cut by nearly £100 million per year. The Committee on Climate Change has warned that the Government’s spending plans will mean that an extra 330,000 properties will be at risk of flooding by 2035.
We also need to recognise that, whatever action we take to protect our harvest, extreme weather abroad can have a dramatic effect on food prices and our food supply. We also have to be aware that rising temperatures globally mean that some farmers will see their yields decrease at a time when global population is increasing, which means there is even more pressure on our food supply. In a globalised food system, it is impossible to escape the effects of climate change, which underlines just how important reducing emissions and mitigating the effects of extreme weather will be to our security in the decades to come.
This Government need to show that they have a serious, joined-up plan for the future of Britain’s food supply. The last Labour Administration had such a plan. That is why this Government’s decision to scrap Labour’s Food 2030 strategy causes concern. The Government’s willingness to compromise long-term goals, such as improving our flood defences and tackling climate change, in the name of short-term savings will create problems for our food supply in the future. I hope that this report and this debate will encourage the Government to take a more strategic and long-term view on food security. Appointing a food security co-ordinator, as the Committee recommended, would have been a start.
As I mentioned, the Committee had originally planned to publish a single report on food security, before the complexity of the issue made it clear that a single inquiry could not do the topic justice. However, this means that the House has the opportunity to discuss in much greater detail the factors that contribute to our food security, which I think all Members will welcome. I look forward to the Minister’s response to this debate, and to debating the second part of the inquiry with my hon. Friends next year.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
As always, it is a delight to be under your stewardship, Mr Hood, and I am also delighted to take part in this important debate this afternoon. While we are relatively few in number here in Westminster Hall today, I am slightly overawed by the expertise displayed by all the Members who have already taken part in the debate—I mean that quite genuinely—and by their passion for this issue, because they get the importance of food and food security. So I begin by commending the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee for its report’s timely focus on food security and for prompting this debate.
As usual, within this detailed report—it is a quite comprehensive part one of two reports—there is a feast of recommendations and information. There is far too much for me to digest and reflect upon in a relatively short contribution.
Let me turn to some of the contributions from the members of the Select Committee who are here today. Its Chairman, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), said early in her contribution that the Government must plan for food security. That point has resonated across all contributions today, and I will pick up on it as well. Such a plan needs coherence and not just vision, but action planning down to the detail, and there needs to be a cross-Government, cross-sectoral approach that ties in industry and other stakeholders and, crucially, the Government nationally and all the way down through the devolved Administrations, and so on.
The hon. Lady also picked up on the need for cross-Government leadership on food by a DEFRA Minister and said that the Minister here today should be the one doing it. I agree. In future, it might be somebody else—who knows?—but I agree that a DEFRA Minister is needed in there, arguing the case, championing it and doing that cross-Government collaboration, not in bits and pieces, but across the whole shooting match. That is exactly what is needed. My hon. Friends the Members for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) and for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck) touched on that, too. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton made many other detailed points that I will return to later.
My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse, with his great expertise, reminded us that when he was first put in post he was described by some out there, although not by all, as a townie vegetarian: “What does he know?” However, in his time in office, he rapidly proved them wrong and became trusted for the breadth of his knowledge of the area and the detail that he went into and for his ability to work collaboratively with all the people involved. He has taken his expertise on to the Select Committee. He outlined that although the report contains major challenges, it also speaks of the opportunities for farmers and food producers and for our big food industry—the biggest manufacturing industry employer in the UK—if we can get this right and if we have the willingness to do it.
My hon. Friend commented, as did my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields, on the rise of food banks as a measure of food insecurity on our own doorsteps, and we are certainly seeing that. He touched on the loss of Food 2030, although he was humble and did not discuss his pivotal role in producing that project. The loss of that strategy is much bemoaned by many people in the industry particularly, who liked the certainty, the cross-Government approach and not just the vision, but the fact that when we left government that was being translated into detailed action points. Initially, there was some criticism: “This big strategy is fantastic. We’ve never seen anything like this. It’s what we need, but where’s the real meat that follows it?” However, as we left government, we were starting to put that meat on.
Jim Fitzpatrick
My hon. Friend is being generous and I appreciate it. Does he agree that what happened to Food 2030 is disappointing because it was not a political draft, but a strategy for the Department, drafted with the advice of the chief scientist and others? That is why there was disappointment that the Government decided not to proceed with it as their framework.
Huw Irranca-Davies
Yes, indeed. My hon. Friend is right. The project was so well worked-up and had the most wide-ranging group of stakeholders possible, from farmers, distributors, retailers, producers, non-governmental organisations: everybody was involved. There were disagreements—that was a tricky enterprise to embark upon and to get agreement on—but, my goodness, there was agreement that that was the right way forward. I will compliment the Government on some good initiatives, but they are not a substitute for that real, coherent, cross-sectoral, binding strategy that says that we are serious about food security, nutrition for children, international development issues and climate change. We would say strongly to the Minister that, if he introduced his own version of a strategy that looked like that—Food 2050, perhaps—we would support him in doing that. However, it needs to bind together all these critical things, because if we get it right for schoolchildren and local supply chains, and so on, it will also be good for producers in the UK. I will mention that in a moment.
It is unarguable that food security is now an imperative, globally and for individual nations, including the UK. As such, it is worth reminding ourselves that food security was defined by the world food summit way back in 1996 as existing
“when all people at all times have access to sufficient, safe, nutritious food to maintain a healthy and active life”.
It was redefined subsequently by the United Nations food and agriculture committee to include, rightly,
“dietary needs and food preferences”.
That definition remains sound, but the context has changed, not least in the scale and urgency of the challenges, summed up so well by Professor John Beddington in 2009, at a sustainable development conference, when he described the
“perfect storm”
that was coming:
“Our food reserves are at a 50 year low, but by 2030 we need to be producing 50% more food. At the same time, we will need 50% more energy, and 30% more fresh water."
This was reinforced by the Foresight report, “The Future of Food and Farming”, led by Professor Beddington, which Professor Tim Benton of the university of Leeds drew upon when he told the Committee in evidence that
“Wars are likely to happen”
in the competition for land and water and scarce resources.
The Enough Food for Everyone IF campaign, which ended earlier this year, brought together more than 200 organisations campaigning to end global hunger. Interestingly, they focused not simply on the efficient production and distribution of food, but on aid, land, tax and transparency. Food security, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields mentioned, is complex and international, but it is very personal for the 3 million children who die of malnutrition each year, in this modern world, or the 1 billion who go to bed hungry every night.
Here at home in the UK, we have seen the hugely accelerated growth in food banks and other types of food aid. I do not want to dwell on this, but I want to state two simple facts, which are both unarguable. Fact one: there has long been volunteer-led informal food aid in this country, going years back, in the shape of the distribution of emergency food, kitchens, and so on. The leading food bank organisation, the Trussell Trust, was providing just over 40,000 allocations of three-day emergency food packages in 2009-10, under the previous Labour Government. It has been there; it was there. That is a fact. However, the second fact is that last year the Trussell Trust provided over 913,000 three-day emergency food allocations. That is, by my rough calculation—and I am not great on maths—a twenty-two-fold increase.
Last February, a much-delayed report commissioned by DEFRA itself into the growth in food aid in the UK found that food aid providers ascribed the food insecurity to problems that have led to sudden reduction in household income, such as job losses, problems associated with social security payments and ongoing underpinning circumstances, such as continual low household income and indebtedness that can no longer support purchase of sufficient food to meet household needs. This analysis has been reinforced by many other analyses of this growing poverty and cost-of-living crisis.
Mrs Lewell-Buck
Is my hon. Friend aware that there has been a 60% increase in sanctions since welfare reform, as we heard in the all-party group on hunger and food poverty, and that is driving people, out of necessity and in their hundreds, to food banks?
Huw Irranca-Davies
Yes, indeed, and that illustrates the point that there is no simple international or domestic solution to food security and related food insecurity; it is very much a function not simply of food production and distribution and waste, but of social and economic policy. That is why we need to get the whole package right, including welfare reforms. Certainly, in my constituency of Ogmore, the delays following the move to personal independence payments mean that, out of a population of some 60,000 on the electoral register—mine is a relatively small constituency—I have 920 cases waiting for PIP outcomes at the moment, with delays in payment, assessment, and so on. So getting this right is a real issue.
I mention that because, as we debate this useful report, it is worth reminding ourselves of two important points arising from food security at home and overseas. First, the causes of food insecurity are many and complex and so are the solutions, involving wider social and economic solutions, as well as food production, storage, distribution, and so on.
Secondly, food insecurity is not an abstract construct, but a deeply personal matter that can devastate lives, families, communities and even nations. It is in our gift as policy makers to fashion adequate responses and on that note, I turn to the report and the Government response.
We note that the Committee and the Government draw on much that was achieved or initiated under the previous Labour Government and my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse. The comprehensive food security analysis in 2009, which the Select Committee report refers to, bolstered such groundbreaking work as the Food Matters strategy and the Foresight report on land use and how to resolve conflicts on land use, which were drawn together in the landmark Food 2030 strategy. That strategy was being worked up into detailed action plans when we left government. Simply put, it was the most ambitious, comprehensive approach to food strategy, taking in not only food security domestically and globally, but diet and nutrition, climate change and carbon reduction, land-use conflict and resolution and so much more. It looked at how we can encourage people to eat a healthy, sustainable diet; ensure a resilient, profitable and competitive food system; increase food production sustainably; reduce the food system’s greenhouse gas emissions; reduce, re-use and reprocess waste within the sector; and increase the impact of skills, knowledge, research and technology. It brought all that together in a streamlined, joined-up way of thinking across Government, industry and non-governmental organisations.
The industry, NGOs and others are still asking why the Government scrapped that strategy and retreated into government by silos, with DEFRA doing its things on food production, the Department of Health doing its things and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office doing its things. What happened to the cross-Government, cross-sectoral working?
However, there have been some welcome developments. The green food project was good and well-intentioned, but even participants in it described it as too narrow and under-resourced, and it eventually ran into the sand. People were looking for what came next. The Foresight report, “The Future of Food and Farming”, adds usefully to the field of knowledge and to previous Foresight reports, including its “Land Use Futures” report under Labour.
The groceries code adjudicator, which was referred to by the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, is a step forward in ensuring fair play in parts of the supply chain and had cross-party support, although we are still curious about why the Government resisted attempts by Labour and others, from all parties and all sectors, to strengthen the Bill with financial penalties until the Government were backed against the wall and facing defeat in Committee. As the hon. Lady asked, where does the GCA go now?
The fruit and vegetable taskforce action plan, which aims to increase the production and consumption of fresh fruit and vegetables in the UK, is commendable and recognises the huge potential of the sector to benefit the economy and health and well-being. It builds on the work of the previous Labour Government, who established—I think it was under my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse—the fruit and vegetable taskforce. I am getting a little worried that I am praising him too much.
The agri-tech strategy is welcome, as it applies that collaborative approach to innovation and research and development across industry, academia, NGOs and Government. That was pioneered by Labour in such programmes as the marine science strategy. The agri-technology strategy needs to ensure that productivity gains and genuine environmental sustainability are simultaneously achieved and that there is full buy-in, not only from the UK, but from global partners—that is the nature of the beast—but it is the right approach. We are glad to see the Government taking forward and building on some of the pioneering achievements of the previous Labour Government, to help build food security and to introduce some logical additional programmes to help deliver some of the wider benefits of a sustainable and resilient food sector, but their piecemeal and disjointed approach is not a substitute for a coherent cross-Government, cross-sectoral plan of action. I am delighted that that point was echoed today by Government and Opposition Members in their different views.
I will ask the Minister some questions that arise directly from this Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee report—this is part one of two—and on which the Government response is still unclear. Specifically, does he believe that the increased costs, including the environmental costs, and the global demand for meat protein mean that we will consume less but higher-quality meat in the future? If so, how do we get there? Does he believe that UK farming is increasingly vulnerable to the rising costs of animal feed, and what is he doing to bring forward specific measures to deal with that? That might involve alternative modes of farming.
What measures can the Minister take to extend the access of food producers, including small farmers, to the highest quality of meteorological prediction as part of our climate change adaptation programme? Does he agree that horticulture has the greatest potential to improve diets, boost food production sustainably and create employment? If so, what more can the Government do to accelerate growth in the sector? What specific measures does he have to promote social enterprises in horticultural growing and food distribution and in local food networks, as well as to promote greater links among people, communities and the food we eat and grow? What measureable, tangible progress has been made on increasing the production and consumption of fruit and vegetables since 2010 and on the taskforce established under Labour?
In the light of the decision by EU Environment Ministers to enable member-state decision making on genetically modified organisms within an EU framework, when will the first commercial applications for GM cultivation in the UK take place and for what products? Why, if the Government agree that pillar two is the better use of common agricultural policy money than pillar one, as they state in their response to the Select Committee report, did they retreat from that position and not ensure 15% modulation? Why, if they see direct payments to farmers under pillar one as an ineffective use of public money and a distortion of the market, did they see fit to place no additional demands on innovation, farm entry, public benefits or environmental benefits on the largest recipients of direct payments, who receive in excess of £150,000 a year or even £300,000 a year? Over the last couple of years, the Government have appeared in statements from the very top of DEFRA to be a little gung-ho in their advocacy of GM. How will the Minister take forward a balanced argument to the public, based on science and evidence, robust safety controls and labelling for consumer transparency?
Those are just some of the questions, and I suspect we will have to return to them in future debates. I thank the Select Committee for a well-informed and excellently argued first part of a two-part contribution to this essential debate on food security. I thank all members of the Committee for their expertise and for asking questions, as well as proposing some possible answers. We look forward to the second part of their report, where we can examine other issues in more detail, just as we now look forward to the Minister’s response.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) on securing the debate. I also congratulate the members of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee on a comprehensive, rounded report that covers a wide range of issues, including self-sufficiency, whether we can improve and increase our exports, the role of the common agricultural policy, the impact of climate change, the importance of technology in agriculture and, finally, the role that reducing food waste can play in meeting our food security needs.
I will briefly set out the nature of the challenge that we face. As the shadow Minister pointed out, the Foresight report examined the issue of food security and concluded that by 2050 there will be a large increase in the world population. Some projections suggest that it could go to 9 billion. Projections suggest that that could lead to an increase in food demand of between 60% and 70%. Coupled with that is the impact of climate change, which means that parts of the world that can currently produce food may be restrained by water resources. Water could become a limiting resource, which would compromise the ability of those areas to produce food.
The Foresight report concluded in 2011 that we have a good level of food security in the UK. It also highlighted the fact that the issue is not just about self-sufficiency. In fact, self-sufficiency is in many ways—I will come on to them—the wrong measure to use for food security. Global food security depends on free trade as much as it does on sustainable production. The UK Government’s position is clear: we want a successful, vibrant farming industry and a sustainable increase in food production. We are doing a huge amount to promote exports and to try to open new markets for our products. We are also keen to deliver import substitution, particularly in dairy, where there is a great deal more potential for this country to manufacture and process more cheese. There are also export opportunities for sectors such as beef and lamb.
If we deliver that and achieve that sustainable increase in production, displace imports and grow our exports, we will of course increase our self-sufficiency. For reasons I have made clear, however, the production-to-supply ratio is the wrong measure for food security, because we could be completely food sufficient one year, but then have a dire harvest and find that we are not sufficient the next year. Part of global food security is therefore about having open markets and free trade.
It is also worth putting our level of self-sufficiency in context. Between the wars, in the 1920s and 1930s, our food security was only some 30% to 40%. At the start of the second world war and when in dire need, the country managed to switch production sharply to crops such as potatoes and got close to self-sufficiency. We can therefore change such things when we need to. As my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton said, our overall self-sufficiency is at 60%, but our self-sufficiency in indigenous foods is still around 73%. That has stabilised in recent years, but it is down, as my hon. Friend said, from the peaks of the late 1980s and early 1990s. We must recognise, however, that a distorting common agricultural policy was driving unsustainable production at that time, and we do not want to return to that.
My hon. Friend also highlighted climate change, which is important in the context of global food security. It is clear that water will become a limiting resource in many countries, which is why some of the research that we are funding through our agricultural technologies strategy is on developing drought-resistant strains of wheat that will still be able to be grown in such countries.
We are also promoting the sustainable intensification of agriculture. Several hon. Members mentioned the green food project, which the Government took forward and published. A number of industry road maps also deal with carbon reduction. My hon. Friend also mentioned soya and its impact on the environment. It is worth noting that the pig sector has made quite good progress in reducing the amount of imported soya used for pig feed, which has contributed to a reduction in their carbon emissions. DEFRA also has greenhouse gas action plans, and we are working with industry to achieve cost-effective reductions in emissions of some 3 million tonnes of carbon dioxide by 2022. We are therefore doing several things to deal with the environmental impact.
Several hon. Members mentioned the report’s recommendation that DEFRA should lead on food security. The Government response made it clear that we agree with that, and that DEFRA should and does lead on food security. The Government were asked whether someone should be designated to deal with the issue. Well, I am standing here, which usually means that I am the Minister who has been designated to look after this matter.
Miss McIntosh
The Minister is being gracious in his response, which is most welcome. We want a co-ordination role and a cohesive, comprehensive approach, which he is well qualified to provide. He steps up and says that he is responsible for food security, but we want someone to co-ordinate policy across the three Departments.
George Eustice
I understand that. I think that we do have that co-ordination, but I lead on food security. We also need co-ordination on science, because science will have many of the answers to the challenges we face.
Several hon. Members mentioned the Global Food Security programme, which was set up to co-ordinate food-related research. It is led by Tim Benton, whom the shadow Minister mentioned, and deals with joining up research in a number of areas, looking at how to improve resilience and the sustainable production and supply of food. It also considers nutrition, health and well-being. That programme is co-ordinating and joining up much of the specific, tailored research in this area. DEFRA is also looking more generally at whether we can co-ordinate more effectively all the various research bodies to reduce duplication and increase focus on research and its effectiveness.
My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton mentioned the importance of waste, an issue that the second part of the Committee’s food security report considers. The Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson), is present for the next debate and waste is generally an issue that he covers, but it is important to recognise that, through the Courtauld commitment and the work of organisations such as the Waste and Resources Action Programme, we have already made good progress on reducing food waste. Household waste is down by some 15%, and we have reduced waste in the supply chain by some 8% and aim to reduce that further.
I want to touch on the importance of technology. Together with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, we have an agri-tech strategy and a £160 million fund, £90 million of which is a catalyst fund to support projects in order to accelerate the transfer of knowledge into farms. Another part of the fund is designed to create centres of excellence in science and food technology.
On long-range weather forecasts, I chair a farm resilience group that meets every six months and will be meeting again in the new year. The Met Office is represented in the group, and we regularly discuss how to improve weather forecasting for farmers. DEFRA has also funded a project to examine our flood resilience on the east coast, and, in addition to some other international collaboration, we are doing some work with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the US Government to understand the impact that extreme weather can have on global security. We are conscious of the weather’s impact and want to improve our forecasting.
My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton and others mentioned the soft fruit industry’s success in extending its season. Our production-to-supply ratio for strawberries has increased from some 60% to 70% just in the past decade or so. I was in the soft fruit industry myself some 20 years ago, and some of these things are not as new as some people say. In Cornwall 20 years ago, I was producing strawberries in heated glasshouses from the end of March right through until Christmas. We used to pride ourselves on having strawberries from Easter to Christmas. The advent of Spanish and French-style polytunnels has given more protection to such crops and has enabled a more widespread extension of the season. My hon. Friend also mentioned apricots, which are indeed now grown in the UK under temporary polythene structures.
I agree with my hon. Friend on the importance of reforming the common agricultural policy. The Government argued against the greening measures in pillar one and were clear that it should be kept as simple as possible, and that the best way to deliver for the environment was through our highly successful agri-environment schemes and pillar two. I can confirm that the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has written to new Commissioner Hogan, with whom I spoke last week. The European Commission is certainly open to the idea of reconsidering some of the greening requirements, and possibly even reconsidering in the mid-term review the idea of the three-crop rule or how it is applied. We have worked with our allies in the Stockholm group of countries, which argue for reform of the CAP and the European Union, to reach a common position to argue for the simplification of the CAP. We hope to make some progress on that next year.
My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton mentioned soya beans, and I have already touched on the fact that the pig industry has been particularly successful in reducing the amount of soya bean that it uses. The other thing to note is that one possible impact of the greening of pillar one—of which, I repeat, we were critical—is that in order to reach the three-crop rule some arable farmers may grow leguminous crops such as broad beans to count towards both their third crop and their ecological focus areas. Potentially, we could see an increase in the production of broad beans and other leguminous crops, which might then displace soya imports.
My hon. Friend also mentioned soil protection. Under our cross-compliance regime, we will scrap the need for a soil protection review, which is only a paper-based exercise that people go through and tick boxes. It does not mean much and is simply an administrative task, and we are replacing it with something much more meaningful. Where we know about soil management challenges on farms or inappropriate management of the soil having an impact on water courses, for example, we want to put in place meaningful measures to deal with that. We are completely overhauling cross-compliance in that area.
Huw Irranca-Davies
The Minister is giving a comprehensive report,. Will he give us more idea of what “meaningful measures” might be? It is only one point in his overall plans, but this different approach is interesting—to say, “We are not doing a tick-box scheme, but we will target instead.” What might such measures be? Does he have any early indications?
George Eustice
Yes. We will shortly be publishing the detailed guidance on the cross-compliance, and the hon. Gentleman will be able to look at it then. In essence, it means farmers ensuring that they have vegetative cover on fields for the maximum possible amount of time; that they only plough when they need to, just ahead of sowing; or that, for example, if they have a problem with water running off their fields, they might consider ploughing them in a different way so that the water does not tunnel down the furrowed ploughed land. We can do a number of different things, and that is the kind of sensible measure that we will have in cross-compliance, rather than having a simple paper-based exercise.
On the groceries code adjudicator, my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton mentioned third-party complaints. I was on the Bill Committee that scrutinised the introduction of that adjudicator. Third parties may complain on behalf of other people, but she made a moot point about whether the adjudicator should be able to instigate investigations itself, without a complaint. In a year or two, a review by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which is the sponsoring Department, might consider that, but at the moment it is too early to make such a judgment.
My hon. Friend also mentioned new entrants. I confirm that we are working on a plan to support new entrants into the industry through the rural development programme. It is a delight to be in the Chamber today, but were it not for this debate, I would have been speaking at the Farmers Weekly “Fertile Minds” conference in Cumbria, which is all about trying to engage new people into the industry. That is something that we are looking at, and I am working on a project about encouraging the use, for instance, of share farm or contract farm agreements to create alternative routes for new people into the industry.
We are already delivering on our commitment to increase exports. Through UK Trade & Investment, we have already helped 2,500 food and drink companies and, so far this year, we have opened more than 100 new international markets to animals and animal products. That includes countries such as the Cayman Islands, the Dominican Republic, Mongolia and, for dairy products, Cuba. We are leaving no stone unturned when it comes to opening new markets.
A number of hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), mentioned the previous Government’s “Food 2030”. People can, however, get too hung up on particular reports. I have read the report and, where it talks about the importance of agricultural technology, I would argue that we have taken things forward in our agri-tech strategy and other things. The report mentions the importance of sustainable intensification—we have had our own green food project with various route maps. It talks about new entrants—I have just explained what we hope to do on that. There is a consistency of themes between what we are doing and what was identified in the report as a challenge.
In addition, we have asked the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board and its new chair, Peter Kendall, to put in place a plan for British agriculture and for how we can make it more competitive. That is a priority for that levy organisation.
Jim Fitzpatrick
I take on board what the Minister is saying about consistency in Government policy. It was probably too naive of me to expect that the branding would have stayed the same; as long as the policy stays the same, that is the consistency that the industry is looking for.
George Eustice
There we go, we have an outbreak of consensus. As I said, we are taking forward many of the points.
The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the existing precarious condition of the dairy industry, which has seen sharp falls in prices. I will have the pleasure of appearing before the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee next week to discuss such issues in more detail. For now, I point out that last week we had a meeting of the dairy supply chain forum, which I chair. We looked at the issue of price volatility and at whether the industry can do more, or whether we can support it, to develop financial instruments that might help them to manage volatility in future. We have also had a review by Alex Fergusson MSP of how the dairy supply chain code is working.
On GM foods, which a number of hon. Members mentioned, our position is consistent. We believe in a science-based approach; if we get the regulation right, there could be a role for such crops. That remains our position. We have always sought allies to argue that case in the European Union.
The hon. Member for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck) talked about food security and, in the context of food banks, people’s ability to afford food. I will not stray into areas that are the responsibility of the Department for Work and Pensions, which might be outside the scope of the debate, but I want to say that although there was a big spike in food prices in 2008, in the past year we have seen food prices fall for the first time since 2002. I chair AMIS, the Agricultural Market Information System, which monitors agricultural commodity markets, and most of the projections at the moment are that for the next couple of years there will be relative stability in cereal prices.
The hon. Member for Ogmore mentioned animal feeds. I want to touch on that, because animal feed costs are lower. Although prices are in some cases just as low for dairy farmers as they were two years ago, the fact that animal feed prices are lower means that farmers’ financial viability is not as compromised as it might have been. He also talked about local food networks, and we are keen to encourage and promote local food production. That is why we asked Peter Bonfield to put in place our new Government plan for procurement, which is all about encouraging the public sector locally—schools and hospitals—to buy and source its food locally, from local suppliers.
The hon. Member for Ogmore also mentioned the role of health. Public Health England regularly runs campaigns to encourage healthy eating, in particular the “eatwell plate”, through which people are encouraged to have their five a day, to moderate their meat consumption and so on.
The final thing that I wanted to mention was the point about meat production made by the hon. Gentleman. We are not going to lecture people on what they should or should not eat, but one of the things that emerged from an informal session that we had at the European Council recently was what might happen if we want to reduce our carbon footprint in meat production, which is perhaps a bit of a trend towards less intensive systems, predominantly using grassland production, the environmental impact of which is lower. The lamb and beef systems of production in this country have less impact on the environment than those of many other countries.
Huw Irranca-Davies
My intention is to come back only on that point, because a lot of good stuff is going on and there is a lot of continuity, which is great and which people want to see. The Minister mentioned procurement and diet, health and well-being, but with so many such areas involved, does he sit down with other Ministers and talk about the effect of X, Y and Z on the food industry, jobs, average earnings, food banks or the response to food aid, telling them what he would like them all to do?
George Eustice
The hon. Gentleman has been in government, and he knows that Ministers have regular meetings with other Ministers on a range of issues. I regularly meet the Health Minister with responsibility for those matters to discuss issues such as nutrition.
Huw Irranca-Davies
I am trying to enhance the Minister’s position. I would like him to sit down in a cross-departmental way and say, “Health, you are doing great things. BIS, you are doing great things. All of you are doing great things, but it is within a context. We will deal with things, such as access to food within the UK, and we will do it in this manner, coherently.” I want him to do that. Will he do it?
George Eustice
As we said in our response to the report, DEFRA leads on food security. Ministers have many meetings with ministerial colleagues, and we have many cross-Government committees, some of which are chaired by Ian Boyd, DEFRA’s chief scientist, and some of which are chaired by officials. This is an important debate on a wide-ranging report that makes an important contribution to the debate on food security. Again, I congratulate the members of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee on their work.
Miss McIntosh
I thank the Minister, but I hope he will respond to the challenge from the team and the shadow Minister to have more confidence, to step forward and to co-ordinate—not just to lead, but to co-ordinate. On that positive note, I congratulate him on his response.
Plastic Bags
(10 years ago)
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Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to have secured this debate. We have just had a wide-ranging debate on environmental issues, and on behalf of the Environmental Audit Committee I propose to address in much more detail the specific issue of plastic bags, which are equally important. I thank the Liaison Committee for making it possible for us to debate our report this afternoon. I am aware that Thursday afternoons are commonly known in parliamentary circles as the graveyard slot, because so many people go back to their constituencies. None the less, there has been interest in our report and, indeed, there have been numerous responses to the Government’s consultation. As the regulations are being introduced in October 2015, it is important that we have this small amount of time in Parliament to question the Minister on what progress the Government are making and where we are. I am grateful to the Minister for being here, and I am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), the shadow Minister, who will no doubt address some of the relevant issues.
[Annette Brooke in the Chair]
There is no single solution to all the environmental challenges that we face. If we consider all of the Environmental Audit Committee’s reports, not only on plastic bags but on the green economy, the circular economy and the sustainable development goals, we clearly need to be taking forward steps on plastic bags just as much as on anything else. If we cannot get it right on plastic bags, how can we, the Government or anyone concerned about the issue get the much bigger things right? It is all about consistency. I accept that banning plastic bags altogether would be a much more radical proposal, but we are not talking about that—it has only been proposed in Italy. We are talking about regulating plastic bags so that we move further along the route towards decarbonisation and addressing environmental degradation. It is therefore critical that we get every single aspect of the regulation right.
The nub of our recommendations on plastic bags is that, if the Government are to introduce a scheme, it must be simple, easily understood and consistent. Unless the scheme ticks all those boxes, there will be complete confusion about its purpose and operation. Section 77 of and schedule 6 to the Climate Change Act 2008 allow us to introduce further regulations on plastic bags, and those regulations need to be approved by the House because the Act did not set out how the proceeds from the sale of carrier bags would be addressed. We therefore need further regulation. That technicality means that we now have this opportunity to make a proposal that is fit for purpose.
The question, therefore, is: why has it taken us so long to get it right? We have had from back in 2008 to October 2015. I am the first to say that it is not only this Government who got it wrong; the previous Government got it wrong, too, because they could also have introduced a measure to do something about plastic bags. There is a question of whether the public are behind the measure and whether there is courage to take these issues forward, but I think that has been addressed because in Scotland, Wales and other parts of the UK we have seen that, where the devolved Administrations have made proposals, they have largely been welcomed once people became used to them. Everyone wants to do their bit for the environment, and such proposals are a means of doing that.
We have concerns about the Government’s proposals and consultation. Our main concerns relate to paper bags, small retailers and biodegradable bags. We took extensive evidence from a wide range of experts and stakeholders. I am also aware that a long list of people responded to the Government’s consultation, including Tidy Britain, Surfers Against Sewage and various other groups. No regard has been given either to the consultations or to the recommendations of the Environmental Audit Committee, which is here on behalf of Parliament to scrutinise what the Government are doing. I hope the Minister will give us chapter and verse, which has been lacking so far, on the Government’s response to the consultation and the reasoning behind that response.
We suggest that there should be no exemptions and that there should just be a single straightforward scheme. Why complicate it? Why are the Minister and his Government complicating it so much? Many of the trade bodies representing small retailers actually oppose the proposed exemption for retailers with fewer than 250 employees. The National Federation of Retail Newsagents, the Association of Convenience Stores and the British Retail Consortium all criticised the exemption in their evidence to the inquiry. They said that the exemption will distort competition and cause confusion for businesses and consumers. All three bodies said that their members would like to participate. We need to know why the Minister is ignoring what those groups said.
I understand that the Government do not want more red tape or to make everything difficult, but I have had further conversations with one of those groups, in which it has made the point that more changes are likely to be coming in as a result of what is currently happening in Europe. Why should its members have to get used to one set of changes when there will perhaps be another set later on? How are the general public going to understand why there are exemptions for smaller businesses? Why can we not simply have a level playing field, with measures that are understood by everyone from day one? Will the Minister tell me why we cannot do that?
The Government have put forward exemptions for paper bags, but as our report points out, paper bags can have a greater emissions impact than plastic bags. Exempting paper bags from the charge would weaken the message on bag reuse and risks reducing environmental benefits and reductions in bag use. The Government should include paper bags in the charge.
We have seen similar things happen on all kinds of environmental issues. One comparison is the situation with air quality and diesel engines. It is laudable to be doing everything we can to cut carbon emissions, but if those efforts at the same time have a reverse effect on environmental quality and standards, we need somehow to co-ordinate efforts in the two areas. Paper bags use more carbon, so what rigorous appraisal have the Government used to come up with the proposal to exempt paper bags? How is that proposal consistent with their long-term climate change and carbon reduction targets under the Climate Change Act? It is incumbent upon the Government to show how every single element of their environmental policy contributes to their overall long-term objectives. They must demonstrate that there will not be contradictory, unintended consequences as a result of the exemption for paper bags.
Our third area of concern was oxo-biodegradable bags. Recyclers who gave evidence to the Committee were concerned that increasing the use of biodegradable—perhaps we should put that word in inverted commas—plastics would threaten the viability of the UK recycling industry by contaminating waste streams and recycled products. During the inquiry, concerns were also raised that biodegradable bags would still cause litter and harm wildlife, because of the time it takes discarded bags to decay.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for securing this debate, which is on an issue that is important to many people. I do not think that the small number of Members here today accurately reflects the significance of the issue.
When the hon. Lady was taking evidence during her inquiry, did she receive evidence not only from Surfers Against Sewage, a group based in my constituency, but from the European Centre for Environment and Human Health, which again is based in my constituency? That centre has gathered a huge amount of scientific work and evidence that shows that biodegradable plastic bags do not degrade naturally in the environment, but need specific circumstances in order to biodegrade. Anyone who has done a beach clean—I have, many times, along the Cornish coast—will be only too away that the plastic does not biodegrade and we all have to collect it.
Annette Brooke (in the Chair)
Order. I remind the hon. Lady that she may make a speech.
Joan Walley
I am grateful for that intervention from the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton). I pay tribute to the work of Surfers Against Sewage. I know from my 28 years in this House just how many campaigns that group has been involved in, very actively, on environmental degradation and the importance of keeping our marine areas and coastal waters clean. The group attaches importance and value to wildlife and has looked at the long-term problems that are caused by the throwaway society that we now seem to have, in which litter ends up everywhere.
In answer to the hon. Lady’s welcome intervention, I can say that we received evidence from Surfers Against Sewage, an organisation that believes in making its point on each and every occasion. Its view is that our greatest chance of success in reducing the amount of bags that are littering our blue and green open spaces, through reducing the number of single-use bags given out at checkouts and ensuring consistency across retailers and along the high street, means we must remove the exemption in the English bag-charge scheme for paper and oxo-biodegradable plastic bags—that is what the group is calling for, and it believes those measures have to be brought forward. That is so obvious to Surfers Against Sewage that I come back to asking this: why is it not so obvious to the Government that we should not allow those particular exemptions? They will create so much uncertainty and lack of understanding.
At a time when politicians are not really trusted by the electorate in the way that we would like to be, the exemptions will undermine trust in the scheme. I do not know whether Surfers Against Sewage made the same points to the devolved Administrations, but if it did, it was listened to better. I hope it is not too late for the representations that are being made to be picked up by the Government—after all, they have not lost any opportunities to say that they intend to be the greenest Government ever. We will judge that by actions, not words.
The Government have failed on all three of those issues: on paper bags, for the reasons I have outlined; on small retailers, because people need to know clearly what is being done; and on the issue of biodegradable bags, as well. While we are on that last subject, it is all very well to talk about biodegradable bags, but according to the evidence we received they are apparently not biodegradable, or at least not yet. The question that then arises is: how can the Government set an exemption for something that is not yet there?
The Government have said—I think Lord de Mauley, the Environment Minister in the other place, made this point—that there will be opportunities for research to establish where the innovation on biodegradable bags will come from. I have to say that there are some questions for the Government on this matter. When it was discussed in the European Parliament, questions were raised by a Danish MEP about whether there had been full transparency about the company wishing to put forward proposals for a type of biodegradable bag that has not yet been confirmed as biodegradable, on which research is still required and for which the Government have yet to set any determining criteria. We have an exemption for something that does not yet exist and will come in at a later stage. That raises all kinds of questions about how fit for purpose the Government’s proposals on plastic bags actually are. They seem to be nonsense.
That would not matter so much if it were not so important that we make progress on the environmental agenda. I was really disturbed to see the Department’s figures on recycling earlier this week, and gave a local radio interview in my constituency this morning about the real cut in the number of items that are being recycled. Looking at the figures, that reduction in recycling is happening not just in Stoke-on-Trent but in London and in areas all over the country. We are a long way from the target of 50% of goods being recyclable by 2020. Instead of reaching a plateau and allowing efforts to flatten out, we should be acting with even greater urgency to get the different schemes that are coming forward absolutely right. As I say, that is not the case with the way we are dealing with paper bags.
WRAP has told us that the number of single-use plastic bags handed out to shoppers by UK supermarkets is not going down; in fact, it has risen for the fourth year running. In England, the number of thin plastic bags used increased by 5% last year, representing an 18% increase since 2010. In contrast, Northern Ireland introduced a charge a quarter of the way through the reporting period, and the number of bags used dropped by 71%. That is a huge difference, and we should be following suit—perhaps we will do so a little more following today’s statement in the House about devolution and where it is taking us.
Bag litter is also rising. When even the Daily Mail is starting to campaign on the issue, we realise just how important it is to people across the country and why getting the scheme right is so important.
I would like the Minister to respond on a couple of issues. We would like to glean from him what has actually been going on in the European negotiations. It would really help people to understand the issue better if they knew the Government’s position in those negotiations. I understand from press reports that a watered-down version of the regulations is likely to come forward, but I would like to hear that directly from the Minister. What was the UK Government’s line? Were we trying to water down the regulations?
The Minister has to tell us why the Government have not taken on board the feedback they have received from so many consultations and as part of the Committee’s report.
I would like the Minister to say a little about the timetable. The Government say they will lay the necessary regulations under the affirmative procedure by the end of the year so that they will be enforced by October 2015. Can we have the dates for the regulations? Are they on track? Have there been further consultations with key stakeholders? When will we see a copy of the proposed regulations? Is there any possibility of the Committee’s recommendations being taken on board as a result of this debate? It is not too late for the Government to change their stance.
Related to that is the issue of behaviour change, which I touched on earlier. How are the Government seeking to use their proposed measure to support other pro-environmental behaviours? What are they doing to ensure consistency in messaging and outcomes? There is also an issue about the money going to charity. Will the work of the charities involved be related to the environment in some way?
What are the Government doing to ensure companies do not use the threat of a new stick to remove existing carrots, if I can put it that way? Sainsbury recently decided to stop giving people Nectar points for reusing plastic bags, but that was an incentive for them to do so. Have the Government met major retailers to see whether they are consistently going forwards, even on the current voluntary basis? How can the Government ensure that charges for bags result in fewer bags being littered?
There is also the issue of learning from other countries. How are we helping companies to prepare, based on what has worked well in other countries? How can we pre-empt the risks that might arise? How has the issue been addressed in Ireland, Wales and, more recently, in Scotland?
This issue is really about the UK Government’s commitment to supporting reductions in the number of plastic bags and about transparency. At the heart of all this—we have seen this with pesticides and so on—is the question of what importance the Government attach to the precautionary principle. That principle should be at the heart of the specific actions we take on plastic bags, but I do not see that it is. I would be grateful if the Minister could respond on those issues when he winds up the debate.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to respond to the debate on behalf of Her Majesty’s official Opposition. I pay tribute to the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), for all the work she has done on this issue, for her Committee’s excellent analysis and for her excellent presentation of it.
Simply put, the Government should not have a stand-alone policy on plastic bags. Reducing their use must be part of a coherent waste management strategy with a focus on preventing plastic from entering the waste stream and reducing litter. There should be no disagreement on that in the House, but, of course, one of the Minister’s first acts on entering the Department was to announce in his infamous letter that there would be an abandonment of waste management by Government.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)
The hon. Gentleman and I served on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee together, and we discussed these matters informally and formally. However, I ask him to refer to what I actually said in my letter, which is that there are some areas of policy that have been taken forward, and it will now be up to industry and wider society to respond, and others that we will continue to conduct research on and get behind. To say that my letter said we were abandoning waste policy is not an entirely fair characterisation.
Barry Gardiner
The Minister pleads in his own defence, and I will let the industry judge for itself, but the industry has been clear that it was deeply unhelpful of the Department to announce that the Government no longer saw fit to take part in some aspects of waste management and that it was down to the industry just to get on with things.
The rationale behind the Government’s position was that they should not intervene in areas where there was no market failure. The problem, however, is that I happen to believe that 2,309 items of plastic per kilometre on UK beaches constitute market failure. The remarks of the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) about the levels of plastic litter experienced around the UK coastline bear witness to that. They are disgusting, but they are also a warning about the level of plastic that has not washed up on our beaches and that is still floating out at sea. The Government have just not thought through waste management in this respect. If they had, they would have listened to the industry and delivered a workable policy programme. They have not done that.
What percentage reduction in plastic bag use do the Government expect will be achieved as a result of their policy by 2020? Will it be as much as in Wales, where there is a simple charging system without all the loopholes and caveats the Government have added?
When does the Minister think that a biodegradable plastic bag will fulfil the criteria for exemption from the single-use plastic bag charging policy? My hon. Friend made an incontrovertible and admirable point: where else in Government policy does one create in law an exemption for something that does not exist? It really beggars belief.
The Committee’s report stated:
“The policy around the exemption for biodegradable bags appears rushed and taken before reviewing existing evidence or considering the concerns of all stakeholders.”
If I may say so, I think my hon. Friend’s Committee let the Government off lightly by putting it so delicately.
The report continues:
“It appears to us that Defra is trying to use innovation to justify a rushed and flawed policy proposal to allow an exemption for biodegradable bags.”
The question we must ask is why. Can the Minister give a reasoned explanation— because there is certainly not one in the Government’s response to the Environmental Audit Committee’s report—of why the Department has gone into such contortions to do that? The waste management industry and environmental scientists are clear about the fact that the exemption is absurd. The British Plastics Federation has made it clear that DEFRA made the decision on the exemption before consulting manufacturers. British Polythene Industries opposed the exemption and stated that it would increase the use of plastic bags and undermine recycling targets. What progress has been made as part of the small business research initiative on biodegradable bags?
Objections to the policy on environmental grounds have been as emphatic as the industry’s. A professor of marine biology and adviser to DEFRA told the Environmental Audit Committee that he was surprised by the proposals to exempt biodegradable bags. His research found that approximately 98% of plastics, including so-called biodegradable plastics, remained after 40 weeks, in part because of a lack of light reaching the bags under water. There is no such thing as a biodegradable plastic bag; the plastic just degrades into smaller pieces that are more easily ingested by marine life. That means that they are more easily able to contaminate and pollute the marine environment.
Quantities of litter on UK beaches have more than doubled since 1994, according to the Marine Conservation Society’s Beachwatch survey, which is the source for the figure of 2,309 items per kilometre found in 2013. Last year English beaches had, on average, 45 plastic bags per kilometre, an increase of just over 20% since 1996. Let us consider the impact of that on wildlife. The northern fulmar does not regurgitate plastic, but accumulates it in its stomach. Data collected between 2007 and 2011 show that 95% of fulmars in the North sea had plastic in their stomach—62% exceeding legal limits.
The Government’s response to the Committee’s report states:
“Several key impacts of the policy (e.g. reduced disamenity impact of litter; reduced damage to marine life) are difficult to measure in quantitative and monetary terms.”
Indeed they are, but that does not mean they are not real. They are what classical economics regards as externalities, and, as so often with the present Government, externalities are ascribed a nil value. That is the problem. The Government have chosen to discount the importance of litter and, significantly, of damage to marine life, because it is too difficult to work out what those things cost. That is the wrong approach. Litter ruins neighbourhoods; plastic waste damages entire marine ecosystems.
The waste management industry, perhaps more than any other, can produce growth that increases the productivity of our economy and creates new, skilled jobs. The job creation rate for recycling and reprocessing is significantly higher than that for landfill. It has been estimated that one job in landfill is created for every 50,000 tonnes of waste. By contrast, SITA estimates that job creation per 1,000 tonnes of waste for recycling ranges from 0.75 to as many as 40 jobs, depending on the material. That is between 38 and 2,000 jobs for every 50,000 tonnes of waste. That is the industry on its own, making an immensely valuable contribution to jobs and growth; but it is even more important as a driver of the wider economy.
Joan Walley
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is widespread concern that the Government are stepping back from supporting the waste management sector, and offering only a limited programme of waste prevention activities? There are opportunities for innovation and growth in jobs, but the sector is not being supported by the Government to the extent it should be.
Barry Gardiner
I am happy that I gave way to my hon. Friend, because, as on most such occasions, she is right. She will have heard the Minister giving his justification for the Government’s approach to the waste management industry and the issue of the circular economy. The point that she and I are trying to make is that the opportunities are huge; and so are the risks of inaction. The Committee warns in paragraph 68 of its report:
“The Government’s waste management strategy needs to be clear, consistent and easy to understand in order to secure reduced carbon emissions, improved rates of recycling and avoid contamination of waste disposal streams. Gains in other areas could be far more important than can be generated by bags alone.”
Again, it is a question of an integrated approach to and coherent policy on waste management. The Committee was right to highlight that; the Government should not have a stand-alone policy on plastic bags. The policy is, frankly, an unscientific mess. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North has pointed out that no genuinely biodegradable plastic bag exists. Paragraph 33 of the Government’s response to the report states that they are
“aware of the concerns regarding contamination of the recycling stream with biodegradable plastics and are addressing this with feasibility studies”.
I should be grateful if the Minister would update us about the progress of those feasibility studies.
In places the Government’s response is incoherent. Paragraph 24 states that
“the Government intends to require retailers to publicise the number of bags sold and how the proceeds of the charge have been spent.”
That is from a Government who are anti-regulation; but three paragraphs on, paragraph 27 states:
“Requiring businesses to report specifically on the VAT on plastic bags would also introduce additional administrative burden for those firms involved.”
Goodness me; within three paragraphs the Government contradict themselves on whether regulation on plastic bags is appropriate or burdensome for business. The policy is incoherent, and an incoherent response has been given to a coherent report.
It is alarming that the policy has been allowed to get so far when Government officials and advisers express serious concerns about the impact on the marine environment, in particular. If the Government do not abandon the absurd parts of this policy and adopt the Environmental Audit Committee’s recommendation for a simple universal charge that will reduce plastic waste and litter as part of a wider, comprehensive and coherent waste-management strategy, I assure the House that the next Labour Government will. It is an essential component of a resource management strategy worthy of the name.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mrs Brooke.
I thank the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) for the opportunity to debate plastic bags. Owing to my ministerial position, I get to be a member of the Environmental Audit Committee, although I am sure as its Chair, the hon. Lady would take me to task on my attendance record sitting on her side of the table. It is a convention that one does not attend in that way, but I have appeared before the Committee on several occasions and look forward to doing so in the near future—next week—on another topic. I appreciate the work it does.
Before I delve into aspects of the policy raised by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North and the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), I noted that the hon. Lady’s speech was somewhat negative. To be fair, she was negative about the previous Government as well as the current one. We are introducing a policy that takes advantage of the provisions of the Climate Change Act 2008. She and the hon. Member for Brent North, who is sometimes my hon. Friend, may take issue with some aspects of the policy, and I will address their concerns in a few moments. The fundamental point is that we are seeking to enact those provisions and to do something about the matter. I hope the hon. Lady and the Committee welcome that.
Joan Walley
Does the Minister agree that if something is worth doing, it is worth doing right?
Dan Rogerson
Absolutely, and we can debate the provisions and aspects that the hon. Lady and the hon. Gentleman have highlighted.
The Government carefully studied the Committee’s report on plastic bags earlier in the year—the hon. Gentleman referred to our response. We may disagree on details of the scheme, but we agree that reducing plastic bag use has environmental benefits. It will mean lower carbon emissions, more efficient use of valuable resources and less litter. Too many single-use bags are currently being distributed. Efforts to reduce the number of such bags without resorting to legislation have led to success in the past, and voluntary initiatives by retailers saw a reduction in their distribution by 48% between 2006 and 2009. That was significant progress, but the number of single-use plastic bags is on the rise. In England between 2010 and 2013, there was an increase of 18%, or just over 1 billion bags. In 2013 alone, England’s main supermarket chains issued more than 7 billion single-use carrier bags to their customers. Laid out, those bags would go round the M25 more than 20,000 times. Such statistics are staggering.
As we know, far too many bags make their way on to the streets and into the countryside as unsightly litter. They are also discarded on beaches, as hon. Members have said. My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) highlighted the work of organisations such as the Marine Conservation Society in monitoring and reporting on that, and in conducting beach cleaning. I was out beach cleaning a few weeks ago, as I am sure many hon. Members were—[Interruption.] Perhaps those with slightly less coastal constituencies were not engaged in that but they are welcome to come to Cornwall to see such important action first hand.
The hon. Gentleman set out the impact in the sea and to the environment where plastic bags can cause harm to wildlife. Plastic bags also have a negative impact on the environment through their production and disposal. The oil used in their creation and the tonnes of plastic that go to landfill means we must take action to reduce the use of plastic bags. When they are used, they should be reused as often as possible and then recycled.
The Government will shortly lay draft legislation in Parliament to introduce a requirement to charge for single-use plastic bags. There has been a largely positive response to the announcement of the charge. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North referred to some corners of the media that have been particularly keen to support the policy. It is a proven tool. In its first year, the Welsh charge resulted in a decrease of 76% in the number of single-use plastic bags distributed by the seven big supermarkets. We have been able to use the experience from the Welsh charge to help to shape our scheme. A similar charge was introduced in Scotland in October, as the hon. Lady said.
Subject to parliamentary approval, the English charge will commence in October 2015. It will require retailers to charge a minimum of 5p for every new single-use plastic carrier bag, the same as in Wales and Scotland. Bags used for deliveries will incur the charge, as well as those used to carry purchases away from a store.
Exemptions are at the core of the debate. Small and medium-sized businesses will be exempt from the charge in England. We recognise that some wanted SMEs to be included, but we concluded that we need to avoid administrative burdens on start-up and growing businesses in England at a time when we want to support new growth in the economy. It is also worth bearing in mind that the current UK retail market is dominated by a relatively small number of large stores run by companies with more than 500 employees—they employ 65% of the people working in retail and have 69% of all annual turnover of retail businesses. Any retailer who is not covered by the legislation will of course be able to charge for bags voluntarily.
Joan Walley
Why are the Government persisting with that when small businesses do not feel the need to be exempted and do not want to be exempted?
Dan Rogerson
Some organisations have taken that on. I have met some of them and they have given evidence to the Committee. Other organisations, such as the Federation of Small Businesses, have taken a different position. It is important to look at the implementation of the charge. The huge majority of the bags will be distributed by retailers who will be covered by the charge. We can continue to examine how the exemption operates post-implementation. The smaller retailers who want to make a charge can do so. They are exempt from the compulsion to do so and the reporting of that, which will be an obligation on those who are covered by the charge.
Barry Gardiner
If small retailers charge 5p for a bag but are exempt, that will presumably constitute part of their revenue stream and they will have to declare VAT on that element of their income, whereas those who are not exempt will be exempt from declaring VAT. The exemptions are working directly counter to each other. Is that correct?
Dan Rogerson
I have been having discussions with some of the organisations representing smaller retailers. Some small businesses have already chosen to introduce a charge voluntarily in local areas. That is a decision for them. We are talking about the difference between compulsion and an option to do so. When smaller retailers have chosen to introduce a charge voluntarily or as part of their business model, and to use the money for good causes, which is what we are expecting larger retailers to do, that will be a matter for them to decide. I want to talk about how we expect that money to be used because that is important and there have been discussions about that outwith this place.
As in Wales and Scotland, we hope and expect that retailers will give the proceeds of the charge to good causes. The Climate Change Act 2008 does not give the Government the power to determine what retailers do with the proceeds of the charge. We will require retailers to report to the Government the number of bags they give out, the amount raised by the charge and what they do with the proceeds. We will then make that information public. We expect that pressure from customers will ensure that the net proceeds, when reasonable costs have been deducted, will go to good causes. Many large retailers have already stated that they will give the proceeds to charities and publish details on their websites.
Barry Gardiner
Given that retailers will be obliged to publish how many bags they have given out and how they have given the money from those bags to charitable causes, is it correct that it will be simple for anyone to calculate how much VAT will be related to the income derived from those bags? It will be a straight 20% to the Government, so why in paragraph 27 of their response to the Committee do they say that that will be a large additional burden on business?
Dan Rogerson
Just for clarification, when the hon. Gentleman says burden on business, is he talking about small businesses that we are exempting from the charge?
Barry Gardiner
I am referring to paragraph 27, which states:
“Requiring businesses to report specifically on the VAT on plastic bags would also introduce additional administrative burden for those firms involved.”
For that reason, the Government did not propose to follow the Committee’s recommendation to report on the VAT and to hypothecate that for the monitoring and effectiveness of the scheme. The excuse given by the Government for not doing so is that it would pose an additional burden on business, but the Minister has just told us that the business will have to report on the number of bags sold and the proceeds of that charge. Given that all one has to do is divide the proceeds of the charge by five, how is it that the Government use the excuse of that being an additional burden on business to avoid the Committee’s conclusions? It is simply a case of dividing by five the burden that has already been placed on them to report on the proceeds.
Dan Rogerson
The reporting system will require retailers to report on the VAT that is paid. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s points, but I was covering the importance of where the money goes and our ability to state our expectations of that. As the Chair of Committee said in her opening remarks, the provisions that allow us to do that without requiring primary legislation are in the Act. That is the area in which we work.
Joan Walley
I agree with the contradiction that has just been described by my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner). If the Minister is not able to clarify that now, it might be helpful for the Committee to have clarification in writing later. The Government’s response to our report says that
“the Government intends to require retailers to publicise the number of bags sold and how the proceeds of the charge have been spent”,
and that they will make an announcement in due course. When will that “due course” be?
Dan Rogerson
Does the hon. Lady mean reporting on what we have received? Does she want to know how the information will be published?
Dan Rogerson
With regard to the regulations on the scheme and the explanation of how the scheme will operate, we will be tabling the regulations in December. One of the hon. Lady’s other questions was about the timetable for implementation. It is still our intention to table the regulations by the end of this year and to have the charge come into operation in October next year. That timetable still remains and, obviously, we will have the opportunity to explore the operation of the system in Committee. Should the hon. Lady be a member of that Committee, we could debate any further questions she has, but the reporting of how that money is to be spent will come to the Government, because retailers will have to do it and make it public. I would be very surprised if companies that were taking the charge in and giving it to good causes did not wish to demonstrate clearly to their customers the purpose to which the money was being put. It would be rather strange for them to give money to good causes—I am sure many of those companies are altruistic—and not tell the public about the good causes to which they are giving money. We have seen other schemes in supermarkets in which, as part of their corporate-social responsibility, they demonstrate how they are supporting community activities in the local area.
Dan Rogerson
I would like to make a little progress, if I may.
It is not only charities that stand to gain from the charge, because when littered, carrier bags cost all of us. They cost taxpayers in England around £10 million every year in clean-up costs. The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady mentioned biodegradability—my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth, who is concerned about the marine environment, also mentioned it. The Government’s position is that there will always be a need for some plastic bags. People may forget their reusable bags or they may require a new bag to avoid contamination if they are buying raw meat. At the same time, we should aim to reduce the visual impact and the harm to wildlife if those bags go on to be littered. A bag that biodegrades into harmless products is clearly more desirable. That is why we are working with industry and academic experts to review existing standards and to set a suitably robust standard for biodegradable bags. Bags that meet that standard will be exempt from the charge.
Hon. Members have referred to bags that are already on the market and the challenges we face. Bags biodegrade in different circumstances in different environments. Those circumstances include hedgerows in the countryside and the marine environment, which we have talked about. We will need to be satisfied that there is a product that is biodegradable in the multiple circumstances in which it may be littered or find itself disposed of.
Barry Gardiner
The Minister is being very generous giving way—I do like him so much and I find it difficult to be quite so difficult with him. He is absolutely right that, depending on the light available, plastics will degrade in differential ways, but standards could be set to allow bags to be used in different circumstances and different contexts. Is he seriously saying that, if someone lives or does their shopping within a mile of the seaside, they will not be able to get hold of a particular plastic bag, whereas if someone lives in Birmingham, that bag might be available to them? Context-specific measures cannot be applied in legislation in that way. We require a bag that does not just break down into small particles, because those small particles are ingested by birds, as well as fish and other marine organisms, and that is a key problem. Unless he can come up with an answer to that critical point, the exemption for supposedly biodegradable bags really does not wash.
Dan Rogerson
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. He is absolutely right that it would be wrong to have different types of bag that biodegrade in different circumstances and then allow them to be sold in particular places—we are absolutely not doing that. We are talking about a product that meets a standard that covers that range of circumstances. That is the super-biodegradability aspiration.
Sarah Newton
I am pleased that the Minister is saying he will use scientific evidence before he makes that decision because, right now, such a product does not exist. I hope he will assure us that, even though he is creating a category of exemption, he does not anticipate any of the current products meeting it. As the science will show, he cannot give us an assurance that the plastics properly biodegrade in the marine environment. Because they do not do so, huge harm is being done. [Interruption.]
Dan Rogerson
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention and the hon. Member for Brent North for his sedentary remark about the criteria and specifications. That is why, in the regulations that hon. Members will see by the end of the calendar year, we must ensure that we can give everyone confidence that we understand that point. We must ensure that the biodegradability is of a sufficient standard to satisfy those concerns. However, we want to stimulate the industry to explore the potential for a product to meet the circumstances that I described. We want to stimulate it to innovate and come up with something to meet the standard.
Joan Walley
Things get curiouser and curiouser. We have an exemption for something that does not exist, and we do not know what the criteria for it are or what the funding will be to incentivise the new procedure. We seem to have a hypothetical future technology that we are waiting to introduce, which will then surely require an equivalently hypothetical future recycling system. I wish the Minister would accept that. Why does he not go back to the drawing board and say, “Rather than having this hypothetical exemption, we will leave it as it is”? If in future that technology or innovation comes to the market, surely we can change the regulations.
Dan Rogerson
Obviously, as I said, the hon. Lady will be able to study the detail of the regulation when it is tabled. The intention behind signalling the desirability of a product that meets the criteria is that that is an important and perfectly reasonable thing to do to stimulate investment in innovation. The hon. Member for Brent North has pointed out that we have studies under way, as is referred to in our response, first, on materials, and secondly on processes for reprocessing bags, to satisfy concerns in that regard. We have had the initial work back. We will review it and consider whether we want to take anything further forward.
Dan Rogerson
I want to make some progress and come to some of the other issues raised in the debate.
The Chair of the Committee was right to point out that, along with such a product, we need a standard to measure it and ensure that it is suitable. However, we would not be doing this at all if we were signalling that in no circumstances would such a product ever be exempt. The whole point of extending that possibility is to stimulate the discussion and innovation. That is the reason behind that aspect of the policy.
The hon. Lady also referred, as did her Committee, to paper bags. We are focusing the charge on plastic bags as part of a targeted and proportionate approach. Plastic carrier bags take the longest to degrade in the natural environment, can harm wildlife, as hon. Members pointed out, and are extremely visible in the environment because they take so long to degrade. Paper bags make up less than 0.1% of the bags distributed in the UK by the seven major supermarkets and can also biodegrade naturally in the open air. Of course, paper bags should still be reused a number of times before being recycled and should never be littered. We have analysed their life cycle—this addresses the carbon problem that the Chair of the Committee was keen to point out—but, because they make up such a small part of the overall number of bags used, we do not think that that will be significant, although they do have a part to play, for the reasons I have set out.
Joan Walley
Will the Minister reassure the House that there has been a full appraisal of the long-term implications of that—one sufficient to reach the conclusions that he has just reached?
Dan Rogerson
The assumption, from what the hon. Lady is saying, is that there might be a massive switch to paper bags and that therefore some of the littering issues and so on might continue even if biodegradability and the use of oil and so on—separate questions—are taken aside. I suggest that retailers, who are used to other forms of the policy in the Welsh jurisdiction, will make the charge part of the operation of their businesses. That was another of her questions—she mentioned working with retailers. We have had regular meetings with the British Retail Consortium and others. The fact that a system has been introduced in other jurisdictions means—the vast majority of those businesses operate across those boundaries—that retailers understand how such a system can work and will be prepared for it.
The hon. Lady mentioned the European Union. We are very pleased that the European Union has reached agreement on a robust plan for tackling the blight of plastic bag pollution, but with each member state doing what works best in its own circumstances. The negotiating position adopted by the United Kingdom Government was to safeguard that flexibility, so that member states can take systems forward in the way that is most suitable in their jurisdiction. That was at the heart of what we were trying to do.
Barry Gardiner
Will the Minister assure the House that, when the Government said, quite properly, that they were going to pursue a charge on plastic bags, a company did not come to them and say, “Hold on a second. We think that we have a product that’s going to be developed that will go a substantial way towards meeting some of the problems with plastic bags, so can you tailor-make an exemption for us”? I ask that because it would be deeply concerning if there were any suggestion that the Government were passing legislation simply to facilitate a company bringing a product to market in that way. It would be good for the Minister to clear the air and say that that is definitely not the case.
Dan Rogerson
As the hon. Gentleman may well be aware, the European Commission is committed to further research on oxo-biodegradable bags, and we will always use robust scientific evidence to inform our decisions. As I set out in our discussion about how things biodegrade in different environments, whether the marine environment or another environment, and the standards that we are seeking to set for our domestic policy, we are very clear that we would have a high barrier for any product to overcome to satisfy the exemption. This is not about taking one technology and saying, “We think that’s fine. We’ll make an exemption for it.” It is about saying, “We want a new sort of product that will overcome a high barrier.”
Barry Gardiner
I want to give the Minister the opportunity to deny categorically that, when the policy against plastic bags was being put forward, a specific company came to the Government and lobbied and got the exemption put into the legislation. I understand what he is saying about standards and the benchmark—when standards are in place, they apply to everyone—but it is really important that the Minister stands up in the House and says, “No. The exemptions that we have put into this legislation are not a result of lobbying by a specific company that came to us once this process was under way.”
Dan Rogerson
The hon. Gentleman has been a Minister, so he knows that decisions that are taken are subject to a process of discussion across Government, across all Departments. I can certainly say that the policy that we have taken forward is not to suit any particular company or any particular technology. It is to meet the obligation to improve environmental outcomes and to deal with the issues of litter, and to generate an income stream for good causes, which we have discussed. That is the focus of the policy.
In concluding my remarks, I thank hon. Members for their close interest in the policy.
Dan Rogerson
No, I am concluding my remarks. I hope we can agree that the policy is a real step forward, for all the reasons we have discussed. I hope I have been able to reassure the hon. Lady and her Committee that we take all these questions very seriously, and that we will move forward on the basis of robust scientific evidence—that will be the basis of our decision—particularly on the question of biodegradability, which I know is of interest to many people. I thank her again for securing today’s debate, and the Liaison Committee for facilitating it. I also thank her for the work her Committee did on the policy.
Joan Walley
May I say first that the Minister has been most gracious in allowing so many interventions? Perhaps that was more a function of the attendance at the debate, but it was very helpful in flushing out some of the issues.
We have had a very wide-ranging debate. I am particularly pleased to have heard the interventions from the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton), who I know takes marine pollution concerns seriously. The contributions certainly from our Front-Bench spokesperson, the hon. Member for Brent North, and from the Minister have helped us perhaps not always to clarify, but certainly to be better informed.
Joan Walley
I am not sure whether I am able to take interventions in the summing-up. I shall take guidance on that from you, Mrs Brooke.
Annette Brooke (in the Chair)
I will allow a brief intervention. I suspect that that will not be the case, but we do have time on our side, but this must be a one and only, not an inquisition.
Barry Gardiner
I am grateful, Mrs Brooke. Was the Chair of the Select Committee concerned, as I was, not to hear an absolute, categorical denial from the Minister that the exemption was precipitated by a specific intervention from a specific company?
Joan Walley
I take note of what my hon. Friend says, and I was about to come on to that point. Before I do, it remains for me to say that the Environmental Audit Committee report was an informed one, and if our recommendations had been adopted, they would have resulted in proposals that were fit for purpose and easy to understand. That would have been a significant step forward. We do not feel that the Government’s proposals, with the exceptions that they contain, will meet the existing need. For that reason, I hope that the Minister will take away a little of the battering that he has received in the debate and put it to good use.
On my hon. Friend’s point about the oxo-biodegradable issues, I want to help the Minister. I suggest that it would be helpful, in view of the concerns that have been expressed during the debate, for the Minister to give the Environmental Audit Committee further written feedback on the meetings that have taken place. We need to know categorically exactly what lobbying there has been from any company that was involved in putting forward proposals. I think that that would put the matter straight, and I am sure that it would be possible with the help of the Minister’s officials. We are simply asking for full transparency on the matter.
I hope that the regulations will be introduced shortly, but they are not fit for purpose as they stand. We need something that is clearer and that will contribute to the overarching agenda that we need to protect our environment. I thank all who have contributed to the debate.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Statements
Flood Recovery
The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)
Last winter saw some of the most severe weather on record, and thousands of homes and businesses were flooded.
Extension of flood recovery schemes to all of 2013-14
The Government responded to these events by making relief available for those flooded, both from council tax and business rates, as well as by helping householders make their homes more resilient to future flooding. However, the Government are today recognising the hardship caused in other parts of England by flooding earlier in 2013-14 by announcing an extension of the following Government flood recovery support schemes: the Department for Communities and Local Government council tax and business rates relief schemes, the severe weather recovery fund (Communities Element); the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs repair and renew grant; and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills' business support scheme.
This will make a real difference for those who suffered the appalling effects of flooding throughout the entirety of the 2013-14 financial year. My officials will be writing on behalf of the Government to all local authorities in England advising them of how to apply along with the terms and conditions of the various schemes.
Bellwin consultation
Last winter, to help local authorities deal with the immediate costs of the severe weather, the Government activated the Bellwin scheme of emergency financial assistance to local authorities, and in recognition of the unique scale of the flooding, made the terms of the scheme more generous. This included lowering the threshold above which the Government will compensate, and reimbursing 100% of local authorities’ costs above those lower thresholds.
We are today announcing a consultation on making those changes to the Bellwin Scheme permanent.
Preparedness
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will be making a full statement on winter preparedness. However, my Department has already done a great deal of work on this. We continue to engage with local government to consider how councils can build on and improve their emergency support outside normal business hours, including clearly publicising their emergency contact numbers; being a more visible part of the local response; and giving clear advice to residents and businesses on how to plan for emergencies. On 30 October DCLG published, jointly with the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives, the “local authorities preparedness for civil emergencies: a good practice guide” to help local authorities ensure they are well-prepared to respond to a civil emergency in their local area. Ministerial colleagues will be meeting with leaders from a number of local authorities over the coming weeks to discuss preparedness to respond to winter weather and flooding in particular.
Recovery progress report
It is also right that I update the House on the recovery progress from last winter’s severe weather events.
The Government are today publishing a flood recovery progress report updating on Government support and local authority activity over the past 11 months, a copy of which will be placed in the Library of the House. My Department has talked to local responders, including volunteers, businesses and communities to understand how the local flood response and recovery process was delivered in local areas; exploring with them lessons that we can all learn about the effects of last winter’s severe weather; and working with them to reduce the risk of damaging floods in future.
Finally, once again I would like to thank all those from local authorities, the emergency services, the armed forces, community and voluntary groups, the staff of the Environment Agency and transport workers who worked so hard throughout last winter, often in appalling conditions, to support and help people during the severe weather.
Future Reserves 2020
(10 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon)
As part of Future Reserves 2020 (FR20), the planned five-year growth of the reserve forces’ trained strength was set out in a statement to the House on 19 December 2013, Official Report, column 121WS. This included annual trained strength targets along with intake targets. I am announcing a public consultation on the reporting of performance against these targets to ensure a consistent approach is taken across all three single services.
Each service uses its reserve forces differently so, when the FR20 targets were set, each service proposed some small variations in the groups of volunteer reserves that should be counted. This has resulted in inconsistent reporting of the number of volunteers against the targets. The Army excludes volunteer reserve personnel serving temporarily on full time reserve service (FTRS), whereas the RAF excludes volunteer reserve personnel serving on either FTRS or additional duties commitments (ADC) from their FR20 trained strength numbers. For both the Army and RAF these personnel are included in the numbers once their FTRS or ADC service ends and they reassume part-time volunteer status. These complications do not exist in the maritime reserves, as the Royal Navy has always counted volunteer reserves serving on FTRS or ADC towards its FR20 targets.
In order to provide a consistent approach to reporting across all three services, the MOD proposes that all volunteer reserve personnel serving on FTRS and ADC should be counted towards the FR20 trained strength targets. The targets themselves will not change.
The targets also need to reflect the use of sponsored reserves as part of our overall reserve requirement.
The public consultation sets out the proposal in more detail. All responses to the consultation will be considered before any decision is taken to revise the population definitions. Performance against the FR20 targets is reported in the UK armed forces quarterly personnel report (QPR) National Statistics publication. This may be amended following the outcome of the public consultation.
Senior Off-payroll Appointees
(10 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon)
A key requirement introduced as a result of HM Treasury’s review of the tax arrangements of public sector appointees (Cmd 8350 published in May 2012) was that Departments must exercise governance over appointments where the appointees are not engaged directly on departmental payrolls. Each Department therefore has an obligation to ensure that such appointees are paying the appropriate amount of tax and national insurance.
On 9 March 2014, my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, announced Departments’ compliance with the rules governing senior off-payroll appointments in central Government in the 2012-13 financial year, Official Report, columns 9 to 13WS. We have, however, subsequently established that the information provided for the Ministry of Defence was not correct, with the consequence that we did not fully conduct the necessary tax compliance checks in a timely fashion for 2012-13.
I apologise to the House for this error, which was due in part to a misinterpretation of the scope of the new requirements, and I provide a restatement of the position for the Ministry of Defence:
Annex 1: New off-payroll engagements between 23 August 2012 and 31 March 2013, for more than £220 per day and for more than six months, of which:
Department and ALBs | Number of new engagements whom assurance was sought of 31 March 2013 | Number for whom assurance was requested and received | Number for whom assurance was requested and not received |
|---|---|---|---|
MOD (core) | 101 | 59 | 42 |
MODALBS | 66 | 63 | 3 |
To comply fully with the Treasury rules and guidance, we are seeking retrospective assurance directly and individually from all of our senior off-payroll appointees that they are complying with the tax legislation. We are verifying the evidence received and will terminate the contract of any current appointee who fails to provide satisfactory evidence of tax compliance and refer the appointee to HM Revenue and Customs for further action as appropriate.
While the vast majority of off-payroll appointments have been made for legitimate business-delivery reasons, the Ministry of Defence is committed to ensuring that it demonstrates the highest standards of governance in this area. We are therefore also enhancing our own departmental controls for all such appointments so that they are not normally made until a formal declaration of compliance with tax legislation has been received from the prospective appointee. Full assurance will subsequently be sought in accordance with HM Treasury guidelines.
In the interests of transparency, a restatement of the Ministry of Defence’s 2012-13 position will also be published in our 2013-14 annual report and accounts, which are being laid before the House today.
Flooding(Winter Preparedness)
(10 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss)
This statement updates the House on Government action to prepare for potential flooding this winter.
Protecting the country from flooding is a core DEFRA priority. This Government are investing £3.2 billion in flood defences in this Parliament, compared to £2.7 billion in the previous five years. This represents a real- terms increase and is helping us better protect over 165,000 properties since 2010. In addition, for the first time we have committed to six years of future capital spending to protect a further 300,000 properties and provide long-term planning for flood resilience.
Winter 2013-14
Last winter saw the wettest weather on record. There were record river flows, sea levels, wave heights and groundwater levels across widespread areas of the country. Although flood defences protected 1.4 million homes, 8,342 homes were flooded and thousands of people were affected by disruption to businesses, infrastructure, transport and utilities.
Since then the Government have led a major flood recovery effort, including committing more than £560 million in recovery support funding. The result is that going into this winter every community is at least as well or better protected than it was last winter. In England, 844 flood defences owned by the Environment Agency, local authorities and others were damaged over the winter. All of the flood defences damaged last winter have been repaired, with either permanent or temporary repairs. DEFRA made an extra £270 million available to repair these defences. Permanent defences have been restored to over 200,000 properties. The Government have committed more than £20 million to help Somerset, which was particularly hard hit.
Somerset
In Somerset, the dredging of the Rivers Tone and Parrett was completed on time and on budget at the end of October. Somerset has been awarded a further £13.1 million through the local growth fund for more dredging; developing options for a Bridgwater Barrier; and a project to increase capacity of the River Sowy. Work is under way to raise key roads at Beer Wall and Muchelney. The Government are working with Somerset county council and others to establish a new rivers authority that will give local people the power to manage their flood risk.
Military assistance
Last winter highlighted the valuable contribution our armed forces can make. The Government have simplified the process by which local responders can request military help in emergencies, and local authorities were informed of the new arrangements in October.
Improving resilience
The Government are also taking action to improve the resilience of our transport, energy and water supply networks. For example, a review into resilience of transport networks was published in July and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport (Patrick McLoughlin) will today publish the Government’s response. DEFRA has also been working with water companies as they review their emergency plans to ensure water supplies are not affected by flooding.
Working with communities
Locally, we are improving the way we work with communities to give them clarity on what works are being undertaken and the outcomes they will deliver. The Environment Agency has held local meetings across the country to explain its current maintenance programme, giving people the opportunity to contribute to and influence these programmes. We are also removing barriers for individuals and local groups to undertake work such as dredging watercourses through the river maintenance pilots scheme.
Working with local authorities
We are working with local authorities to plan for flood risk through the development of local flood risk management strategies. We have identified those authorities where we feel work is most urgent, and we are strongly encouraging them to get strategies in place as soon as possible. We have also started work on a review of the 2010 Flood and Water Management Act, to check that flood risk is being properly managed at a local level.
National level preparedness
We have improved our ability to respond to emergencies at a national level. For example, we will hold precautionary COBRA meetings if significant flooding is likely in advance of public holidays. This will help us ensure all organisations are fully prepared and ready to respond. The arrangements for making use of temporary flood defences and pumps have also been improved. On the recovery effort, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities (Eric Pickles) is updating the House today.
Flood insurance
We are taking action to ensure people at risk of flooding can protect themselves by securing affordable home insurance. The new Flood Re scheme will limit the amount that people pay for floods cover when it is introduced next year.
Raising awareness
In October, we launched the national “Get Ready for Winter” campaign with the Met Office to encourage people and communities to think about preparing for winter. This month is the Environment Agency’s “flood awareness month”, and it has been explaining how to prepare and encouraging more people to join the 1 million who are already signed up to the flood warning service.
Funding
Comparing this Parliament—2010-11 to 2014-15—to the previous five years, investment in flood risk management has increased in real terms by 5%. Over the coming six-year period, we will be making record levels of investment (£2.3 billion) in capital flood defence projects. This will begin with £370 million in 2015-16 and then the same in real terms each year, rising to over £400 million in 2020-21. This is the first time that such a long-term settlement has been set out demonstrating our commitment to managing flood risk and providing communities with increased security.
This investment will deliver long-term value for money and reduce the risk of flooding to a further 300,000 households between April 2015 and March 2021, on top of the 165,000 protected during the current spending period. By the end of the decade, we will have provided a better level of protection to at least 465,000 households.
Conclusion
Despite the exceptional weather conditions experienced last winter, in the large majority of cases our defences stood up well. They protected around 1.4 million properties and more than 600,000 acres of farmland from flooding. This underlines the importance of continuing our investment in flood defences. We have one of the best forecasting and warning systems in the world. We are determined to reduce the risk further and provide better protection for people’s homes, farms and businesses across the country. We have acted on the lessons from last winter and together with our local partners we are better prepared than ever before.
Afghanistan
(10 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond)
I wish to inform the House that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development, is today publishing the forty second progress report on developments in Afghanistan since November 2010.
On 27 October the final UK personnel were flown from Camp Bastion to Kandahar airfield. This followed the formal handover of responsibility for Camp Bastion to the Afghan military the previous day.
The Independent Election Commission announced the final, certified results of the provincial council elections on 25 October. 458 candidates were elected to the provincial councils, with 21 % of seats going to women.
In response to the serious fiscal crisis faced by the new Afghan Government, the UK agreed to make £15.6 million of previously committed funding available more quickly to the Government of Afghanistan. This is not new money. It will be delivered through the World Bank managed Afghanistan reconstruction trust fund and will allow basic services to continue to be delivered to the people of Afghanistan.
The UK and the Afghan Government agreed the London conference on Afghanistan will take place on 3-4 December. This is a key opportunity for the international community to signal its continued support for the Government of Afghanistan and their vision for reform, underpinned by the principle of mutual accountability and aid effectiveness.
I am placing the report in the Libraries of both Houses. It will also be published on the gov.uk website at: www.gov.uk/government/publications/afghanistan-progress-reports
British Indian Ocean Territory
(10 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (James Duddridge)
On 19 November 2013 my predecessor, the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds) updated the House on the start of an independent feasibility study on resettlement of the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT) by its former inhabitants. KPMG were appointed as independent consultants commissioned to carry out this study. Today KPMG will publish its draft final report in full. It is available via the Overseas Territories website at: www.gov.uk. Copies have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
In line with its terms of reference, the feasibility study has examined the full range of options for resettlement on each of the islands of the territory, including Diego Garcia with its vital military base. Final views are now sought from the Chagossian community and all those with an interest.
The study will conclude and issue its final report to Ministers in January 2015.
Pre-Council Statement
(10 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) Council is due to be held on 4 and 5 December in Brussels. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), and I will attend on behalf of the United Kingdom. As the provisional agenda stands, the following items will be discussed.
Justice day on 4 December will begin with the Italian presidency seeking a partial general approach on chapter IX of the proposal for a general data protection regulation. This deals with personal data processing for statistical, scientific and medical research purposes as well as provisions dealing with freedom of expression, employment and social protection. The presidency is also looking to secure a partial general approach on the issue of public sector flexibility within the instrument. Although progress has been made in improving some aspects of the text, the Government are against the use of partial general approaches with regard to this dossier, given the amount of technical detail on which disagreement remains.
Separately, they will hold an orientation debate on the regulatory one-stop shop which is intended to clarify in which member state regulatory decision-making should take place where there is a cross-border element to the processing of personal data.
The presidency will also provide a state of play update on the proposal for a data protection directive, covering the processing of personal data in the investigation and detection of crime. At this stage, it is not looking to secure any agreement as there has been more limited progress than is the case on the proposed general data protection regulation.
There will be an orientation debate on the European Public Prosecutor’s Office (EPPO) proposal. The UK does not and will not participate in the EPPO. Debate will centre on the EPPO’s nomination and appointment procedures and how best to deliver independence within the “college” structure. While the UK plays an active role in the negotiations as a non-participating member state, to shape and protect our position, we do not anticipate a need to intervene on these internal matters.
The presidency will present a partial general approach in relation to the Commission’s proposal to reform Eurojust, covering Chapters I-III and V-IX—omitting the chapter on data protection—of the proposal with all references to the European Public Prosecutor’s Office (EPPO) removed. Given that Eurojust’s relationship with the EPPO is not covered in the revised text, it is impossible to take a definitive view on items such as governance arrangements. However, the presidency text provided is broadly positive from a UK perspective. One of our key concerns was to ensure that member states are not obliged to give additional powers to their national members. The presidency text is much improved in this regard.
The presidency will be aiming for a general approach on the directive on presumption of innocence. The UK has not opted in to this proposal though monitors negotiations.
This will be followed by a state of play debate on the directive on legal aid; again the UK has not opted in to this proposal. The Council also seeks an update on the state of play for the draft directive on the fight against fraud by means of criminal law following the European Parliament’s first reading position of April 2014; the Council continues to discuss the content of the directive ahead of trilogues.
Next, there will be a political agreement on the proposal for a revised regulation on insolvency proceedings. This represents the end of negotiations which began in January 2013 following a proposal from the Commission to modernise the existing regulation, particularly to expand its scope to ensure businesses in the EU are rescued where possible and jobs preserved. The Council is being asked to reach political agreement on the text with a view to adoption in 2015. The UK Government support this revision.
There will be orientation guidelines on the regulation on promoting the free movement of citizens and businesses by simplifying the acceptance of certain public documents in the EU. This measure aims to abolish the process of “legalisation” of certain public documents. Legalisation is the formality to confirm the authenticity of an official signature or seal. The regulation also proposes establishing EU multilingual forms. The Government support the principle of reducing red tape and costs and welcome recent amendments to both parts of the proposal which have limited the list of documents in scope to core civil status documents, such as birth, death and marriage certificates. They also welcome ongoing discussions to replace the proposed multilingual forms with simple translations of the original national documents rather than creating translated standalone forms with their own evidential value.
The presidency hopes to obtain a general approach to amend the European small claims regulation. From a UK perspective the negotiations have been successful in achieving our main objectives, including returning to the current definition of what constitutes a cross-border case and ensuring that no arbitrary cap on court fees is imposed on member states. The Government would have preferred a higher threshold for a small claim than €4,000 but understand that a compromise had to be found between the different positions of the member states.
The presidency is to provide a state of play report on the negotiations of the proposals on matrimonial property and the property consequences of registered partnerships. This is likely to state that while most technical issues have been finalised agreement on the proposals has not yet proved possible because of political concerns from some member states regarding the status of same-sex relationships. As these proposals will be decided under the special legislative procedure for family measures, agreement must be obtained by unanimity. The UK has not opted in to either proposal.
Under AOB, there will be an update from the presidency on the outcome of proceedings of the EU-US justice and home affairs ministerial meeting which took place in Washington DC on 12-13 November 2014. Finally the Latvian delegation will give a presentation on their incoming presidency programme.
The interior session on 5 December will begin in mixed committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland—non-EU Schengen states. We expect the Council to focus on the implementation of October’s JHA Council conclusions on the response to migratory pressures, in particular those from the Mediterranean. The UK will press for full implementation of the conclusions, in particular supporting further action in key countries of origin and transit, offering further support for the new Frontex operation in the Mediterranean, and pressing for further efforts to ensure member states are meeting their responsibilities in the area of asylum and illegal migration.
The Commission will present the latest biannual report on the functioning of the Schengen area, and Council will be given the opportunity to discuss its content. Although the UK does not participate in the border and visa elements of the Schengen acquis, the Government maintain a strong interest given the effect of illegal migration transiting the Schengen area on UK borders. We will call for the EU to consider the role that Schengen visa liberalisation with non-EU member states can play in creating opportunities for immigration abuse, including the abuse of free movement rights by non-EU nationals.
Ministers will be invited to note a report highlighting the achievements of 15 years of Schengen evaluations under the Council’s management. Council conclusions will then be discussed, to allow the continuation of the relevant evaluation working group beyond 27 November. This will retain Schengen evaluation expertise within the Council structure and assist Ministers in effective delivery of the new Schengen evaluation mechanism. The UK supports this move.
The presidency currently plans a debate on Bulgarian and Romanian accession to Schengen, at the request of Romania and Bulgaria, who are seeking to finalise their accession to the border aspects of the Schengen acquis and then lower border controls with their EU neighbours. While the Italian presidency would like to see this issue resolved at Council, accession remains blocked by a minority of member states. The presidency may well withdraw it from the agenda—as it did in October. If the debate goes ahead, Bulgaria and Romania are likely to express their frustration. As this currently concerns only borders elements of Schengen, the UK does not have a vote.
Over lunch on the interior day there will be an update on passenger name records (PNR). The Council will consider how to proceed on PNR given the recent decision by the European Parliament to refer the EU Canada PNR agreement to the European Court of Justice. It is possible the LIBE Committee will use the referral to further delay progress on the draft PNR directive. The UK supports speedy adoption of the PNR directive, but we are clear that it should provide for intra-EEA PNR.
The Council will return to the issue of foreign fighters travelling to Syria and Iraq. Member states will be invited to discuss a number of issues based on a presidency paper, as called for at the June European Council. The Council will also be asked to adopt the guidelines which accompany the EU strategy for combating radicalisation and recruitment to terrorism, following the adoption of the updated strategy earlier this year. The UK supports the guidelines and has taken an active role in negotiations at working level, drawing on the UK’s experience of Prevent.
Under AOB, there will be an update from the presidency on the outcome of proceedings of the EU-US justice and home affairs ministerial meeting which took place in Washington DC on 12-13 November 2014. The Latvian delegation will give a presentation on their incoming presidency programme.
Powers of Entry
(10 years ago)
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The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Brokenshire)
My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State (Lord Bates) has today made the following written ministerial statement:
The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 required Ministers across Government to undertake a review of powers of entry. The Act required Ministers who are members of the Cabinet with responsibility for powers of entry to examine their powers and to consider whether they are still necessary, proportionate and contain sufficient safeguards.
Ministers of each Department have now concluded their reviews and prepared reports which will be laid before Parliament today.
These reports show that a total of 1,237 powers of entry have been subject to review. The Government are proposing a significant reduction in the overall number of powers which will leave a total of 912. The Government have also ensured that, where necessary, remaining powers will have additional safeguards added via legislation to ensure appropriate use of the powers. The number of powers for which it is proposed to add safeguards is 231.
Policing in England and Wales (Annual Assessment)
(10 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary has today laid before Parliament his annual assessment of policing in England and Wales in accordance with section 54 of the Police Act 1996. Copies are available at: www.hmic.gov.uk and in the Vote Office.
This report forms a part of HMIC’s first police efficiency, effectiveness and legitimacy (PEEL) assessment. The PEEL assessment represents a radical shift in how police forces are held to account by enabling the public to see for the first time how well their force is performing when it comes to cutting crime, providing a service that is fair and providing value for money. The individual force assessments are also available today at: www.hmic. gov.uk
Boundary Commission for England (Deputy Chair)
(10 years ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
I should like to inform the House that I have made the following appointment under schedule 1 to the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986:
The hon. Mrs Justice Patterson has been appointed as Deputy Chair of the Boundary Commission for England, effective until 9 November 2019.
Legal Aid
(10 years ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
I am today publishing the Government response to the “Transforming Legal Aid: Crime Duty Contracts” consultation published on 24 September. Copies will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
This consultation was specifically about the reports produced by KPMG LLP and Otterburn Legal Consulting regarding the legal aid litigator market, which helped inform decisions on the number of criminal legal aid duty contracts to be offered across England and Wales in 2015. We have thoroughly reviewed all the responses received.
As a result, the Legal Aid Agency will let 527 crime duty contracts. This has been revised from 525. The LAA is also today issuing an invitation to tender for those organisations eligible to apply for a 2015 duty provider crime contract. Contracts have already been awarded for own client work, the other type of criminal legal aid contract we announced in February.
To provide further help to firms in rural areas, we have decided to introduce payments for travelling times in excess of 90 minutes. We will also relax the office requirements in the split procurement areas and London to give greater flexibility. This builds on the support measures introduced earlier, such as introducing interim payments for lawyers involved in lengthy Crown court cases and establishing a business partnering network to help practitioners with organisational and financial advice, if they need it. We have also worked with the British Business Bank to develop guidance and advice specifically for the legal aid market.
I have previously informed the House that a second fee reduction for litigators is forecast for mid-2015. The Legal Aid Agency are inviting bidders to bid on the basis that the fee reduction will take place in July, subject to the further considerations we have already said we will undertake.
Convention on the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms
(10 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon Hughes)
Further to my statement on 28 October, Official Report, column 16WS, I hereby exercise powers under section 21 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 to extend the period for protocol 15 to the European convention on human rights to be laid before Parliament, it having been laid initially by the Foreign Secretary on 28 October as Command Paper No. 8951. The scrutiny period will be extended by eight sitting days and will expire when the House of Lords rises for recess on 17 December.
Intelligence Services Commissioner
(10 years ago)
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The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
I have today deposited in the Libraries of both Houses a copy of a direction I have given to the Intelligence Services Commissioner, the right hon. Sir Mark Waller, under section 59A of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. This direction puts on a statutory footing the Commissioner’s role overseeing compliance with the consolidated guidance to intelligence officers and service personnel on the detention and interviewing of detainees overseas, and on the passing and receipt of intelligence relating to detainees.
The Commissioner’s oversight of the consolidated guidance began when it was published for the first time by this Government on 6 July 2010. His annual reports since then, which are published and available on the Commissioner’s website, detail his work overseeing compliance with those aspects of the guidance for which he has responsibility. In his 2013 annual report he asked me to issue this direction and put his work in this regard on a statutory footing. I said I would issue this direction in my statement to the House on 25 November 2014, following the publication of the Intelligence and Security Committee’s report into the murder of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
In their report, the Intelligence and Security Committee were critical of the Secret Intelligence Service for the handling of allegations of Michael Adebolajo’s mistreatment in Kenya, made during his interview by the police under the Terrorism Act 2000 on his return to the UK. I have therefore asked Sir Mark to examine the concerns raised by the Committee on the Government’s responsibilities in relation to partner counter-terrorism units overseas. He will have full access to all the material referred to in the Committee’s report.
The Intelligence Services Commissioner plays a crucial role as part of the oversight regime for the work of the security and intelligence agencies. His 2013 annual report, published on 26 June 2014, sets out in detail his work over the past year. I am grateful to Sir Mark Waller for his continuing scrutiny of the agencies and their activities, including compliance with the consolidated guidance. This Government have been determined from the outset to have greater clarity about what is and what is not acceptable when dealing with detainees held overseas by other countries. That is why we published the guidance at the earliest opportunity. It makes clear that our services must never take any action where they know or believe that torture will occur, that if they become aware of abuse they should report it to the Government so we can try to stop it and if there is a risk of serious mistreatment, it is for Ministers—rightly—to determine what action, if any, should be taken.
Heads of Agreement
(10 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)
Lord Smith of Kelvin has today published the Heads of Agreement with recommendations for further devolution of powers to the Scottish Parliament.
In order to assist Members, I am depositing a copy of the Heads of Agreement in the Libraries of both Houses. I have also arranged for paper copies to be made available in the Vote Office in the House of Commons and the Printed Paper Office in the House of Lords.
I will make a further statement to the House of Commons later today.
Rail Franchising
(10 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
I am pleased to inform the House that following a rigorous competition I intend to award the Intercity East Coast franchise to Inter City Railways Ltd, a joint venture between Stagecoach Transport Holdings Ltd and Virgin Holdings Ltd, pending the successful completion of a standstill period of at least 10 days.
This new franchise will run for eight years from 1 March 2015 to 31 March 2023 with a further extension of one year callable at my discretion.
This is a significant step forward not just for this vital and historic route but for our whole transport system. Traffic on our railways has more than doubled since privatisation from 750 million to 1.6 billion journeys a year. With Network Rail we are investing £38 billion in maintaining and improving the system. The new franchise will realise the benefits of this investment. It will be good for towns and cities up and down the east coast of England and Scotland, and good for our economy and jobs.
This franchise will provide over £140 million in investment for passengers: faster journey times; new trains; more services; 50% more capacity; lower headline fares; free wi-fi and connects five towns that have never been connected to this franchise before. It provides strengthened services to the north of England, Scotland and Lincolnshire. We asked for transformation; our new partner will achieve this with what will be a renewed railway.
Stagecoach and Virgin have long-term plans to build on the work done by the public sector operator and improve the franchise for passengers. Stagecoach and Virgin will also deliver for taxpayers by providing an improved premium of £3.3 billion—nominal—to Government over the next eight years.
The flexibility in our specification has allowed Stagecoach and Virgin to use its experience and put together a new timetable that not only continues service levels to every current mainline station but significantly enhances the levels of service.
Stagecoach and Virgin will strengthen the vital links from London to Scotland; all the way along the route as far as Aberdeen and Inverness. Passengers will benefit from regular, faster, more frequent cross-border services to Falkirk, Stirling and Edinburgh, with journeys between London and Edinburgh regularly taking just four hours by May 2020.
England will also receive greatly improved services. By May 2020, Leeds will see regular journey times of two hours while Leeds, Bradford, Shipley, Harrogate and Horsforth will see more services each day when compared to the current timetable.
Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Huddersfield and Dewsbury, will all get services on InterCity East Coast for the first time as a result of this competition and Lincoln, which gets just one train a day to London, under the current operator will get one every two hours by May 2019 with the new one.
All of these destinations will be served by the new Intercity Express trains by May 2020. They will be built in the heart of the north-east at the new plant in Newton Aycliffe. These trains will provide more reliable services, more seats and more leg and luggage space. The new operator will provide 50% more capacity across the InterCity East Coast and a 40% increase in morning peak seats to and from Kings Cross. Stagecoach and Virgin plan better catering with more staff on board trains to help passengers. They will not make passengers wait for the new trains to bring improvements. Stagecoach and Virgin will perform a major refurbishment of the existing fleet. This will bring them up to a high standard.
Stagecoach and Virgin plans to reduce some of the most expensive standard class fares on the franchise by up to 10% from May next year. Passengers will also have the chance to register to get automatic delay-repay payments at times of disruption and benefit from a loyalty and rewards scheme. Stations will see investment too with more car parking spaces, additional secure cycling facilities and electric vehicle charging points.
A benefits package worth £5 million will be available to all of its employees. Stagecoach and Virgin will invest heavily in skills, not just for their staff but for the railway as a whole. There will be a graduate programme and new apprenticeships, and the operator will create the national academy for rail professional education with bases in London, York and Derby. This will provide good training at a reduced cost; helping the whole of the industry by reducing the barriers to employment in it.
This award is further proof that private competition is good for passengers, local communities and taxpayers.
Transport Resilience
(10 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
Following the 2013-14 winter of sustained wet and windy weather, I invited Richard Brown OBE to chair a review of the resilience of our transport networks to extreme weather events. The review was published in July and today I am publishing the Government’s response.
Richard Brown’s review examined the resilience of our major transport modes, assessed lessons learned and put forward more than 60 recommendations to improve resilience both in the short term and long term. The majority of recommendations quite rightly addressed the impacts of last winter’s weather which resulted in flooding, damage to transport assets and disruption to passenger services. The review did not look at the impacts of snow and ice as these were covered in the Quarmby review of 2010.
We accept the recommendations made in the review, and the response published today sets out in detail the actions being taken forward by Government and transport owners and operators to improve the resilience of our transport infrastructure and its operations. Good progress has been made since the review’s publication. Wherever possible actions have been put in place in advance of this winter, while other resilience activities have been planned for delivery as soon as practicable. Areas covered include asset management; communications; economics and funding; flooding; geotechnics; maintenance; supporting infrastructure; user behaviour; vegetation management and weather forecasting.
While there will always be vulnerabilities to our transport networks from extreme weather, the review has served to join up a lot of the existing work on resilience across transport modes and has prompted transport operators to take immediate action which should put them in an enhanced state of readiness to respond and recover from future severe weather events.
My Department will monitor the progress of the resilience activities set out in the Government response, and will provide a supplementary report next year to provide an update on the delivery of the actions highlighted in the response.
Copies of the Government response can be found in the Libraries of both Houses and will be available at: https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/review-of-the-resilience-of-the-transport-network-to-extreme-weather-events-expert-panel
Employment and Support Allowance
(10 years ago)
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The Minister for Disabled People (Mr Mark Harper)
Later today, I will publish Command Paper Cm 8967, the Government response to the Work and Pensions Select Committee report on employment and support allowance (ESA) and work capability assessment (WCA). I would like to thank the Committee for its report.
The Government are committed to reviewing and improving the service they offer disabled people and those with long-term health conditions. We have made a number of improvements to these provisions over the course of this Parliament, and recently appointed Maximus as the new provider of the WCA from March 2015.
The number of disabled people in employment has increased by 259,000 in the last year to 3.07 million. However, we are not complacent and recognise that more support is needed for people in receipt of incapacity benefits. Every one of these people has something to contribute to society and we are determined to support them in realising their full potential.
Today I am announcing a series of measures to further improve the support we offer disabled people and those with health conditions. From early 2015 we will run a range of pilots to test additional approaches to supporting ESA claimants. This will include testing more intensive support during the first six months following the completion of the Work programme; voluntary employment-related interventions and occupational health advice for those awaiting a WCA; and testing the impact of the claimant commitment for ESA claimants.
In April 2015 we plan to introduce a measure allowing individuals to remain on JSA for up to 13 weeks during a period of sickness. This will ensure claimants with short-term conditions remain closer to the labour market. In addition by next spring we plan to introduce a measure preventing claimants being paid the ESA assessment rate if they have already been found fit for work but have then made a repeat claim for benefit without developing a new health condition or having seen a deterioration in their current condition.
There will inevitably be some individuals whose condition affects them so severely that they may not be able to return to full-time employment. We will of course continue to provide comprehensive support for this group as well as look at ways of improving the service we already deliver.
Work Capability Assessment (Year Five)
(10 years ago)
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The Minister for Disabled People (Mr Mark Harper)
The Government are pleased to announce that the fifth independent review of the work capability assessment, carried out by Dr Paul Litchfield, will be published later today. This is the fifth and final annual independent review, as required by the Welfare Reform Act 2007.
Dr Litchfield has reported on the evolution of the work capability assessment since 2008, as well as progress made in implementing recommendations made in the previous independent reviews. He has explored how these changes have had an impact on the operation of the work capability assessment and the way in which it is perceived. He has recommended further minor changes to the assessment and recognised the need for a period of stability for the current WCA.
The work capability assessment is integral to the Government’s commitment to ensuring that as many people as are able to do so engage in employment and those who genuinely cannot work receive the appropriate support.
The Government welcome Dr Litchfield’s report as a key step in making sure the assessment is as effective as possible and will carefully consider his report and recommendations. The Government’s response to Dr Litchfield’s report will be published during this Parliament.
Grand Committee
Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014
(10 years ago)
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Baroness Williams of Trafford
That the Grand Committee do consider the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014.
Relevant document: 13th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, this order was laid in Parliament on 7 November. It is part of continuing efforts to tackle the trade in so-called “legal highs”—a term which is unhelpful. On 30 October the Government published their response to the expert-led review into new psychoactive substances. They have set out an enhanced package of measures that includes looking at the feasibility of new legislation in this challenging area.
The Misuse of Drugs Act will remain the cornerstone of the Government’s legislative actions to curtail the availability of these new drugs where there is expert advice on their harms. The order being debated today is one part of the Government’s actions, which they continue to pursue with full vigour.
I would like to thank the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs for its continued support in reviewing the evidence base on new psychoactive substances sold as legal highs that have the potential to cause harm. The ACMD’s considerations and advice continue to inform the Government’s response to these drugs. Noble Lords will wish to note that the legislative measures the Government are proposing through this order are entirely in line with the ACMD’s advice.
If made, this order will specify for control the synthetic opioid AH-7921 and a number of LSD-related compounds, commonly referred to as ALD-52, AL-LAD, ETH-LAD, PRO-LAD and LSZ. The order will also extend the definition used to control the family of tryptamines to capture compounds such as alpha-methyltryptamine as well as 5-MeO-DALT for control under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971.
The Government have received advice from the ACMD that the drugs to be controlled are being misused or likely to be misused. In the ACMD’s view, their misuse is having, or is capable of having, sufficiently harmful effects to warrant legislative action under the 1971 Act. Legislative action is necessary as a result of the real and potential harms identified by the ACMD. This action will send out a strong message to those who are considering experimenting with these drugs and help the Government to target their public health messaging in order to protect the public. It will also allow enforcement partners to prioritise resources accordingly to tackle the sale and supply of these drugs, sending out a strong message to those who trade in these harmful drugs, including high street “head shops”.
The Committee will be aware that this Government and the ACMD continue to monitor, through UK and EU drugs early warning systems, emerging substances marketed as legal alternatives to controlled drugs. This work has informed the ACMD’s deliberations and, as appropriate, its current advice to update our drug laws in relation to the new psychoactive compounds being controlled.
AH-7921 is a potent synthetic analgesic developed over 40 years ago by Allen & Hanburys pharmaceutical company in the UK. The ACMD reports that,
“the compound was not developed further, presumably because animal studies revealed a high addictive potential”.
AH-7921 has recently become available as a new psychoactive substance. It was first detected in Europe in July 2012. Since then a number of drug-related deaths have been reported in Europe, including three related deaths reported by the National Programme on Substance Abuse Deaths in the UK in 2013. AH-7921 is reported as being highly addictive, with a potency similar to morphine. Harms from the misuse of this drug are reported to include difficulty in breathing, severe pain and death.
The LSD-related compounds are potent hallucinogens which currently evade UK controls on this family of drugs. These compounds are reported as being offered for sale on specialist websites devoted to hallucinogens as new psychoactive substances. The harms associated with the misuse of these compounds are reported to include euphoria, hallucinations, rapid heartbeat and depression. These compounds are also known to cause acute mental health disturbances.
The tryptamines are hallucinogens, a large number of which are already controlled via a generic or group definition under the 1971 Act as class A drugs. The ACMD reports that in recent years there has been a significant interest in hallucinogens of this type. A number of these substances, which fall outside the current group definition, are being offered for sale as new psychoactive substances. Two in particular, commonly referred to as AMT and 5-MeO-DALT, have been encountered through the Home Office forensic early warning system. AMT was linked to the tragic deaths of Adam Hunt and Christopher Scott last year.
The physical effects of the tryptamines are reported as visual illusion, hallucination and euphoria, among others. The ACMD also reports a small number of confirmed post-mortem toxicology reports, rising from one in 2009 to four in 2013, with AMT being the most frequently linked to reported tryptamine deaths. For all these reasons, the Government accept the ACMD’s advice to extend current controls to these compounds as class A drugs under the 1971 Act.
The Government intend to make two further, related statutory instruments, which will be subject to the negative resolution procedure. The Misuse of Drugs (Designation) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2014 will amend the Misuse of Drugs (Designation) Order 2001 to place the compounds being controlled in Part 1 of the order as compounds to which Section 7(4) of the 1971 Act applies. These compounds have no known legitimate uses outside research. Their availability for use in research will be enabled under a Home Office licence.
The Misuse of Drugs (Amendment No. 3) Regulations 2014 will amend the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001 to place the compounds being controlled by this order in Schedule 1 to the 2001 regulations, as they have no known or recognised medicinal uses. These instruments will be laid in time to come into force at the same time as the Order in Council, if it comes into force as proposed. The Government will publicise the approved law changes through a Home Office circular. I commend the order to the Committee.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the detail on this. The explanation she gave was very helpful. I also congratulate her on her pronunciation—these are not easy words; they have foiled many a Minister. However, the complications are more than just verbal when we look at the detail of the complexities of the compounds that we are seeking to prohibit. This order was actually laid in July and had to be withdrawn because of a mistake. That indicates how complex these issues are and how important it is that we get it right.
Too often, these drugs are referred to in a phrase that I do not like: “legal highs”. Sometimes the only reason that they are legal is because of the technicality that no one has got round to banning that particular compound yet, even though it has a very similar effect to another. That might be the initial reaction to these highs, but in too many cases they lead to death or very serious illness or psychosis, so it is right that action is taken against them. One thing that gives cause for concern is the growing number of artificial drugs—created or synthetic compounds—on the market. The Government’s approach now, of looking at groups of compounds rather than trying to ban an individual one so that when there is a slight change in the make-up another one has to be banned, is a much more sensible approach and one that we welcome.
I will just ask something briefly about process. There are two questions here. The Government sought advice from the ACMD on this order and it fully supports it. It is always helpful where there is consensus in these matters. Is there a process by which the ACMD can draw the attention of the Government to drugs being used on which it thinks action should be taken? Is there a two-way process?
The Minister referred to other orders coming before us. I think that this is the fifth order on the Misuse of Drugs Act that I have spoken to, so a number of substances have been banned already. We need to ensure that the action that we are taking is effective. There is no point in us sitting here, with the Minister having to learn the names of the drugs and read them through, with the immense work that goes into preparing such orders and the advice from the ACMD, if at the end of the day it is not going to have much effect. How many prosecutions have there been in line with all that has been done already in respect of substances and compounds that have been banned, and how many seizures of drugs banned in previous orders have we seen? Has any assessment been made or evidence emerged of a decline in their use? I am happy not to receive answers today, but I am looking for reassurance that when we take such action it does have an impact and makes a difference. With those points and questions, we give our support to the Motion.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I thank the noble Baroness for taking part in this quite brief discussion of a matter which—I think there is general consensus—needs to be tackled. Obviously, approval of the order will ensure that our drug laws remain effective and assist law enforcement to restrict the availability of compounds that have no legitimate use outside research.
The noble Baroness mentioned how unhelpful the term “legal high” is—because, as she said, the only reason that a substance is a legal high is that it has not yet become an illegal high. She also referred to how complex the whole thing is, because we are almost running to stand still, given the number of new compounds and substances being developed.
The noble Baroness asked whether the ACMD can take a proactive as opposed to a reactive approach if it gets intelligence on new drugs that are being developed. Given that it is a two-way dialogue, I assume that the answer is yes, but if it is any different from that, I will let her know. The expert panel made an assessment of our approach and concluded that we should build on it, but I am happy to write to the noble Baroness on that point.
On the increase or the decline in use, the use of new psychoactive substances among the general population remains relatively low overall compared to that of some of the traditional illicit drugs, with 0.6% of adults—that is, 16 to 59 year-olds—reporting use of mephedrone in the last year compared to 6.6% for cannabis, 2.4% for powder cocaine and 1.6% for ecstasy.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
That does not address the point that I am making; it tells us about the average use. What I am trying to do is understand the impact of orders such as these. I understand what the use is in the UK; I want to know whether the orders are having any effect. I am happy for the Minister not to answer today but to write to me, because I think that is a more complex question.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I will clarify that in a letter.
I think that I have answered the two main questions. I am happy to write with detail on the other questions that were asked. In light of that, I commend the order.
Electricity and Gas (Energy Companies Obligation) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014
Baroness Verma
That the Grand Committee do consider the Electricity and Gas (Energy Companies Obligation) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014.
Relevant documents: 8th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 9th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma) (Con)
My Lords, I am pleased to open this debate on the two draft orders before us. We are proposing amendments to the existing ECO order which covers the period to March 2015, and a new ECO order which introduces a new period for the scheme, extending the obligation to March 2017.
The Government have faced up to the enormous energy challenges our country faces over the coming years. With the overhaul of the electricity market and record investment in renewable technologies, we are well on the way to making sure that the UK’s energy is secure, low carbon and affordable, and improving the energy efficiency of the UK’s homes is central to this challenge. Through the Energy Company Obligation scheme and the Green Deal, we are making homes warmer, more energy efficient and cheaper to heat. Since the introduction of ECO and the Green Deal framework we have made tremendous progress towards our target of 1 million homes making one or more permanent energy efficiency improvements by March 2015.
Altogether, around 995,000 energy efficiency measures had been installed in more than 819,000 homes by the end of September. The vast majority of households benefiting have received support from ECO, with more than 585,000 measures going towards around 482,000 low income and vulnerable households, and households in deprived areas. Under the Affordable Warmth scheme, we had delivered just under 380,000 measures into around 304,000 households by the end of September. This work has delivered £4.2 billion-worth of notional lifetime bill savings and is a significant investment in addressing fuel poverty. Thanks to the new ECO order we are introducing today, more than 400,000 further insulation measures and around 250,000 more heating measures are due to be delivered through ECO by 2017. This will provide long-term certainty for the industry and enable it to deliver as effectively as possible.
I recognise that the changes we are making to the existing ECO order are significant. Nevertheless, the policy will continue to drive large-scale investment in energy efficiency across the country. Going forward, it will be targeted more at those who need it most: those who are, or are at risk of, becoming fuel poor. These changes were proposed in December 2013 as part of a package of measures introduced by the Government to reduce energy bills by an average of £50. The changes to ECO alone will reduce energy bills by around £35, which energy companies have confirmed they are on track to deliver.
The vast majority of customers pay for the ECO as part of their energy bills. We all know that energy bills have been rising in recent years, which is why it is right and fair to review the impact that this policy has had on household costs. We are continually monitoring the scheme to make sure that we strike the right balance between the long-term benefits of energy efficiency and the more immediate impacts on consumer bills. This is so that we can continue to offer help to those in need while ensuring a sustainable scheme that delivers value for money for everyone else.
I am proud to say that, thanks to the impact of government energy policies, household energy bills are on average £90 lower this year than they would have been otherwise, as the costs of supporting home-grown, low-carbon energy sources are, on average, more than offset by savings from the Government’s energy efficiency policies. An average household dual fuel bill in 2014 costs £1,369, compared to a projected £1,459 if Government policies, including ECO, did not exist to support cleaner energy, to ensure security of supply this winter, to help vulnerable households and to promote energy efficiency.
To reduce the cost of delivering ECO, the amendment order will reduce the 2015 target for the carbon emissions reduction obligation by 33%. These orders extend the eligible primary measures for the carbon emissions reduction obligation to include loft insulation, cavity wall insulation and district heating systems where these measures are installed from 1 April 2014 onwards. We recognise that some energy companies will have delivered more than others and will have done so by investing in more expensive measures. Therefore, we intend to provide a carbon uplift for those companies to ensure that they are not penalised for acting early. However, alongside some scaling back intended to lower overall costs, we are also introducing a minimum target for solid wall insulation, which will guarantee for the first time that a substantial number of solid walled properties—around 100,000—will be treated under ECO to March 2017. We have done this to ensure that we continue to support people living in cold, hard-to-treat homes, as well as to deliver carbon savings.
In addition to this, we allocated an additional £450 million in support of household energy efficiency over three years. As part of this, we have provided further support for energy efficiency measures, including solid wall insulation, through the Green Deal home improvement fund. The success of the Green Deal home improvement fund demonstrates that consumers will take up energy-saving technologies where costs and disruption have previously resulted in low take-up rates if incentives are sufficiently attractive. I am pleased that the Government will soon announce a second release of the Green Deal home improvement fund as part of making a further £100 million available to household energy efficiency.
Furthermore, our changes to ECO do not involve any reduction in the level of support for low-income and vulnerable households. As noble Lords will know, the Government are putting in place a new energy efficiency-based fuel poverty target for England. Parliament is currently considering the proposed legislation. Extending support under the ECO Affordable Warmth scheme ensures continued long-term investment in energy efficiency in fuel-poor homes. It is considered the most sustainable way of tackling fuel poverty and reducing the cost of keeping warm. Reflecting that reducing fuel poverty is a priority, the orders we are considering retain dedicated Affordable Warmth activity under ECO at the original level of investment. Thanks to our new order, we are giving certainty to industry by extending activity on the same scale to March 2017.
We have also sought to make ECO easier and cheaper to deliver in low-income communities and rural areas. We are therefore extending the carbon-saving community obligation part of ECO to cover the bottom 25% of areas on the index of multiple deprivation, meaning more households in low-income areas have access to ECO funding, and we are simplifying the eligibility requirements for installing measures in rural areas. These changes will apply for measures installed since 1 April 2014 and have already resulted in a significant increase in the number of measures delivered to hard-to-reach rural homes.
The new order extends the ECO scheme to 2017, with new carbon and Affordable Warmth targets to be met over the period April 2015 to March 2017. This will ensure that ECO continues to deliver energy-efficiency measures in households for an additional two years. It will give certainty to industry and, together with the impacts of the amending order, we expect it to result in interventions for an additional 620,000 households.
The order makes some adjustments to the ECO Affordable Warmth scheme. We are rebalancing delivery towards non-gas fuelled households, which are more likely to be in fuel poverty, by introducing an uplift to be applied to insulation and qualifying boilers in non-gas fuelled households; and bringing in a new eligibility measure—a qualifying electric storage heater—which will incentivise delivery to electrically heated homes by giving these measures a different score than they would previously have received. This will now be calculated in a similar way to the score for a qualifying boiler.
ECO has delivered 267,000 new boilers in low-income and vulnerable households. This is a significant achievement. For the future, we are incentivising a more balanced profile of delivery, by setting the score for measures in such a way that will mean insulation measures will be more likely to be promoted than they were previously. We are also introducing additional customer protections by requiring that a warranty covering the installation of new boilers is provided free of charge to the customer.
In conclusion, the amendments to the current ECO order will bring much needed reductions to energy bills at a time of rising energy costs, while protecting energy-efficiency funding for vulnerable and low-income households. I commend these orders to the Committee.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining these extremely complex changes, and for doing so despite a short-term disability in terms of delivery. It is probably sensible that she indicates that she will write to me on any points she wishes to take up because we have another set of regulations to get through before we finish on energy today.
I also thank the Minister’s officials because they have produced Explanatory Notes and an impact assessment that are extremely complex. However, some of that raises rather more questions than it answers. The Minister has done her best to present this as an advance in tackling energy efficiency but my assessment is that in some ways it is a retreat. It is obviously part of the broader approach of government to the multifarious challenges of energy policy but most commentators would say that the energy-efficiency dimension of it is faltering.
Let us look at a bit of history. When they came in, the Government inherited a number of different schemes from the previous Government: Warm Front, CERT and CESP in England and the equivalent taxpayer-funded Warm Front schemes in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, which are still running. None of those schemes was perfect, although when I was a Minister Warm Front actually delivered 250,000 interventions per annum, which is considerably more ambitious than the aggregate of all the schemes to which the Minister referred.
The intention of the Government was that the ECO, funded by consumers rather than taxpayers, would replace all those schemes in one way or another, at less cost. It would be more consolidated, more stable and more geared to the physical and social challenges implicit in dealing with energy efficiency and fuel poverty. It has fallen well short of that so far. Some minor improvements have been made and are being made today in terms of the coverage, techniques and technologies for which ECO can pay—but on balance it is going backwards. That is partly because the Government’s very good first intention when they introduced the concept of the ECO was that this framework would last for 10 years. It was said that it would run to 2023 in broadly these terms. However, after two years we have some pretty major changes and some significant underperformance.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, although I disagree with absolutely everything that he said. In case I go into a coughing fit, I will just say now, while I am not coughing, that I will write to him if I do not reach some of the answers to the questions that he asked.
In the view of the Government, these measures achieve all the objectives that the noble Lord has highlighted them as not achieving. The noble Lord compared Warm Front in 2010-11 with Affordable Warmth. Warm Front did deliver, but it delivered less for the same amount of money: 80,000 houses from a budget of £366 million, whereas ECO Affordable Warmth is expected to deliver 160,00 households up to 2017, for £350 million a year. You cannot always compare like for like, because we are offering different tools. The same applies to CERT and CESP compared to ECO. We in this Government are looking at measures that are harder to deliver. CERT offered LED lights as part of the bigger drive to increase energy efficiency, but these were short-term fixes. We are trying to offer longer-term measures such as solid wall insulation, replacement of boilers and other measures like that.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that we need to look at this in the long term. We have some of the most energy-inefficient housing stock in Europe, so rather than address the issue by using short-term fixes, we need to adopt a more holistic approach by considering what measures we can put in place alongside the smart meter programme, which the noble Lord rightly pointed to in his remarks. The foundation phase is currently under way and the rollout will begin to take place from next year. Smart meters will empower individuals to reduce energy costs because they will have more control over their energy consumption. However, the focus has to be on ensuring that low-income and vulnerable households are reached and helped first. The fact that we are extending ECO to 2017 and that 620,000 households will receive at least one measure assures us that we are meeting the needs of those households about which the noble Lord and I are both genuinely concerned.
The noble Lord also asked how we can be sure that the energy companies are going to pass on the full value of the savings to their customers. The companies have confirmed publicly that they will pass on the savings, and we have made it easier for consumers to be able to switch between different companies if they do not deliver. From a base of six companies, I believe that we now have 19 new independent companies on the scene. Choice and competition are now in place, and ultimately it will be competition that drives down costs, alongside companies being more receptive to consumer needs.
The noble Lord talked about uncertainty in the sectors that deliver these measures. Actually, the fact that they know they are going to be working on these ECO measures until 2017 means that they have another two years in which to deliver. Ultimately, as a responsible Government, we have to listen. When people say that they are concerned about energy prices, we have to respond to that. That is why any responsible Government would review what they are doing in order to make sure in particular that those who are finding it hardest to meet the costs are helped the most. The way we have undertaken to put this order in place means that we are doing exactly that.
I do not want to encourage political point scoring here, but at least we have come forward with a constructive approach. The noble Lord’s colleagues in the other place have been talking about energy price freezes. As we know, and as the energy companies are telling us, energy price freezes actually raise prices both before and after the freeze, while keeping the price level for two years. That will not encourage certainty in the sector; it will just make things very uncertain for consumers. We must not protest that these measures do not go far enough, rather we should encourage a review to see how well they are working. The fact is that we are now addressing vulnerable people in rural areas as well as low-income households, which shows that the Government have taken very seriously the points raised by the noble Lord.
The noble Lord also talked about the private rented sector. I think that he is aware that we carried out a consultation which closed on 2 September. We are now going through the responses we received, and once they have been considered, the Government will publish their view. That response will be available to the noble Lord and others. I will have to read Hansard carefully to ensure that I have answered the many questions put by the noble Lord. However, I thank him because I know that we genuinely share a desire to ensure that we address people’s anxieties about high bills in a very responsible and sensible manner. I believe that the order goes some way to achieving that and I commend it to the Committee.
Electricity and Gas (Energy Company Obligation) Order 2014
Baroness Verma
That the Grand Committee do consider the Electricity and Gas (Energy Company Obligation) Order 2014.
Relevant documents: 11th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and 12th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee
Fuel Poverty (England) Regulations 2014
Baroness Verma
That the Grand Committee do consider the Fuel Poverty (England) Regulations 2014.
Relevant document: 10th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma) (Con)
My Lords, I am pleased to open this short debate on the Fuel Poverty (England) Regulations 2014. Before I go into the detail of the regulations, I will set out their context. They are the result of three years’ detailed work, which has sought to overhaul the framework for tackling fuel poverty in England. Since taking office, this Government have been clear in their aims to understand the problem of fuel poverty, measure it effectively, and put in place a suitable, ambitious and meaningful target for change, supported by a strategy to meet that target. Since 2010, we have seen a consistent fall in the number of homes in fuel poverty, but the cost of energy remains a real problem for many people. We must address the issues over the long term.
This journey began from first principles with the independent review of fuel poverty, led by Professor Sir John Hills and published in 2012. Professor Hills concluded that fuel poverty is a distinct and serious structural problem, requiring an ongoing targeted effort to properly address it. Indeed, fuel poverty is driven not only by low income but by the characteristics of the homes we live in. His review also highlighted that, while the previous 10% indicator used to measure fuel poverty was well meaning, it was fundamentally flawed. Its sensitivity to energy prices meant that the official figures often suggested significant progress in alleviating fuel poverty, while masking the real problems faced by those on low incomes living in the coldest, least energy-efficient homes.
The Government have been determined to learn these lessons and we have acted. In 2013, we confirmed that we would adopt the low income, high costs indicator of fuel poverty in England, which finds a household to be fuel poor if it has an income below the poverty line—including if meeting its required energy bill would push it below the poverty line—and if it has higher than typical energy costs. In essence, it means that fuel poverty is an additional problem faced by some low-income households that have the highest energy costs. This measure also takes into account how a home is used. For example, it now captures specific heating patterns for people who need to spend more time at home, which often includes households with young children, the elderly or the disabled.
Measuring fuel poverty properly really matters. The major advantage of the low income, high cost indicator is that not only will it allow us to judge the scale of the number of homes affected, but it will enable us to understand it through the fuel poverty gap, telling us how badly affected each household is. This means that we can prioritise households in the most severe fuel poverty—those which we will want to help first. The indicator will allow us to home in on the factors that mean that low-income households face higher costs, the most notable of which is the energy efficiency of the property they live in.
Last year, the Government published the Framework for Future Action. We laid out a set of principles to guide progress: prioritisation of the most severely fuel poor; supporting the fuel poor through cost-effective measures; and ensuring that vulnerability is reflected in policy decisions. These strategic principles are useful tools for assessing the effectiveness of current policies and shaping their future development so that the Government can use their resources in the most effective way.
Our current policies are already making a difference. For example, since 2011, the Warm Home Discount has meant that more than 2 million households receive a discount on their energy bill each year. More than 480,000 low-income and vulnerable households will be warmer after having received measures under the energy company obligation.
The new definition of fuel poverty has now enabled us further to shape existing policies to take into account a new understanding of the problem. For example, we are amending ECO to incentivise the delivery of affordable warmth measures to non-gas fuelled households, as we discussed in our previous debate.
Significantly, through the Energy Act 2013, we amended the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 to remove the previous fuel poverty target, create the necessary legislative framework for our new approach and place a duty on the Secretary of State to set out a clear objective and way forward for tackling fuel poverty.
Today’s debate marks the most important step in this process. These regulations set out the form of the fuel poverty objective, the level of ambition to be achieved and the date by which this must be done. The new statutory target aims to ensure that as many fuel-poor homes in England as is reasonably practicable achieve a minimum energy efficiency rating of band C by 2030. This is because improving the energy efficiency of properties is the best way to lower energy bills in the long term. Reducing energy waste will help to protect fuel-poor households from future bill rises. It will also help to improve the energy efficiency of the wider housing stock in line with the UK’s carbon budgets.
Importantly, the target will be based on a minimum threshold rather than an average and will focus on those fuel-poor households where improvements can be made at least cost. This approach is very much in keeping with our first principle—to help the worst-off first—and has overwhelming support from fuel poverty stakeholders, including National Energy Action and the independent advisory body, the Fuel Poverty Advisory Group.
The target metric—the energy efficiency standard for measuring progress—is based on the standard assessment procedure but with an adjustment so that current policies that have a direct impact on energy costs, such as the rebate delivered by the Warm Home Discount, are accounted for. This recognises that important tool in helping people to keep warm.
It is important that this is a long-term goal because fuel poverty is a long-term structural problem. Action will require the support of successive Governments if we are to deliver the necessary energy efficiency improvements to fuel-poor homes in England. The 2030 timeline is also in line with the UK’s existing carbon budgets.
We are setting a statutory goal that aims to see as many fuel-poor homes as is reasonably practicable reach an energy efficiency standard that currently fewer than 5% of fuel-poor homes enjoy. It is a standard that will help people keep warm and cut bills, making a real difference to the lives of fuel-poor households.
The average energy efficiency rating of all homes today is band D. For fuel-poor homes, the situation is worse: they have an average of band E. To put this in context, if you are fuel poor and live in a band F or G home, this means that you could typically face energy bills of £2,100 to stay warm. But if you lived in a band C home, this could be only £1,000, or £1,200 if you lived in band D.
To get as many fuel-poor homes as is reasonably practicable to a minimum of band C will require a range of actions, such as the installation of energy-efficiency measures and bill rebates to help households with energy costs. It will mean trying to ensure that fuel-poor homes have sufficiently insulated walls and lofts. Some homes could see the installation of central heating systems for the first time, while others could receive an upgrade to the most efficient boilers available or potentially have a heat pump installed.
The Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act also requires the Secretary of State to publish a strategy for achieving the new target. In this strategy, the Secretary of State is required to specify interim objectives and target dates for achieving them. These interim milestones will be important, given the long-term nature of the target, so that we can monitor progress.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that explanation and congratulate her on getting through it. I hope that indicates that her health is improving even as we have this discussion. We touched on some of the same subjects in our earlier discussion, but on this one I probably should formally declare an interest as the chair of a charity dealing with fuel poverty.
There is a bit of a problem in dealing with what is, in effect, putting into motion the totality of the strategy on fuel poverty by discussion of secondary legislation. The Minister referred to previous bits of legislation, which were primary legislation. It seems a bit odd that we are defining the interim targets, the means of delivery, the overall strategy and, of course, the definition in secondary legislation. In future, Parliament really will require a rather more substantial discussion than one in a sparsely attended Grand Committee—although it is very welcome to see my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and indeed the noble Earl, Lord Howe, here. It is a rather limited form of scrutiny and this is a rather important subject.
The Minister will have heard me giving my doubts previously about the new definition. The old definition had problems—I accept that—but I think the new definition has almost the converse problems. None the less, one part of it is a very positive advance: in addition to measuring overall fuel poverty, there are measures of the depth of fuel poverty in Sir John Hills’s redefinition. That seems to me an advance, but it is one that does not seem to have flowed through to policy in terms of the way in which fuel poverty interventions are being prioritised. The Minister spoke about prioritisation, but maybe I missed how we are using those new definitions. Would she care to write to me on that matter?
Overall, this is another reduction in ambition. There was a 30% reduction in expenditure on consumer-funded interventions on fuel poverty from 2010-11 to this financial year. If you add the taxpayer-funded interventions, which were being run down by 2010, it would be a 40% reduction. We are running down the actual resources being devoted to tackling fuel poverty, despite the fact that the problem remains considerable. All Governments have recognised that, but we are working in a context where the total resources are constrained.
Notionally, it is a very good idea, instead of defining the target in terms of outcomes, number of households or number of individuals, to focus on and define it in terms of the energy-efficiency performance of buildings. Regrettably, it is a little difficult to measure buildings’ energy efficiency as we do not have a comprehensive index of energy efficiency. A building’s real energy efficiency may well differ significantly from the notional energy efficiency, as that depends to some extent on household behaviour, landlord-tenant relationships and all sorts of other things.
The phrase “as many as reasonably practicable” is a useful get-out for Governments of all sorts. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Hunt and I can remember using similar phrases. However, we cannot by any means be certain that the progress of interim targets, which are very clearly defined right up to 2030, can easily be measured by something as subjective as “reasonably practicable”. Indeed, 2030 seems a very long way off for those targets. We are attempting to ensure that the private rented sector reaches band E by 2018, whereas the general target appears to be behind that. We should surely do better than that. Most people think we could go faster than that in the private rented sector. The end date of 2030 should be brought forward at least to 2025.
On prioritisation again, if there is a more sophisticated way to use the new fuel poverty gap information, we need to see how we focus on those who are in the worst fuel poverty as distinct from—as has often been the case under all Governments—focusing on the easiest cases and the cheapest individual interventions. We are, of course, not only dealing with those in deepest fuel poverty but attempting to reduce the average level of fuel poverty at the same time. It will be quite difficult to ascertain how well we are doing on that under the new definition, for the reasons I have tried to explain.
Frankly, the central problem is the same one that we had on the previous group of regulations, which is that ECO, as the main deliverer of this policy, is flawed. ECO, particularly as defined now, is not sufficiently geared to prioritise attention to the fuel poor. In some ways, broadening the measures takes attention away from the fuel poor even though it may help in otherwise neglected areas such as off-gas dwellings. The ECO does not deliver the required targeting because delivery is down to the supply companies, which have to fulfil their quotas and are not necessarily going to follow any identification of priorities set out by the Government or the regulator. It is not clear how targeting and prioritisation can exist under the ECO.
Because we are dealing with this house by house via the suppliers rather than area by area, because we are focusing on the fabric of the notional energy efficiency of the house rather than the people within it and because we are focusing on defining the measures rather than the need, there is a serious problem. This is epitomised, again, primarily by the neglect of how we are going to intervene within the rented sector. We still have not fully resolved how to deal with the issue of the landlord-tenant relationships there. As I said earlier, this sets up changing and difficult-to-interpret signals to the industry. I am informed that there is a real danger that we will have fewer players in the insulation and installation industries and probably, therefore, higher unit costs and possibly lower standards.
If the deficiencies in the ECO were made up by other interventions, this would not matter; or it would matter significantly less. However, the other government interventions in this area are not going to deliver for the fuel poor. The Green Deal is primarily and explicitly for those who are able to pay and has its own problems, which we need not go into now.
The Warm Home Discount undoubtedly helps the fuel poor in the immediate term by giving them money off a bill, but it does not resolve the problem of keeping those bills down through greater energy efficiency in the medium term. The rationalisation of the number of tariffs that Ofgem now requires of companies, in order to fulfil a rash commitment by the Prime Minister a couple of years ago that the number of tariffs should be reduced to four, has led to some companies reducing the number of tariffs that they are able to offer to various elements of the fuel poor, particularly pensioners. The Green Deal, the Warm Homes Discount and Ofgem’s approach to tariffs do not help the numbers of fuel poor being treated or the speed with which we can deal with them.
The ECO as it is currently designed and due to be delivered will not achieve the full results which both the Government and I would like to see. We need some new thinking. My party has produced a Green Paper on energy efficiency and is prepared to discuss it with everyone involved. Although campaigners in this area support aspects of what the Government are attempting to do, and are certainly prepared to work within the new framework and the new definition, they need to see more resources and interventions at a faster rate than has been the case. The ECO is geared only for the two years to 2017, and the long-term view as to how people can have confidence in the aims and the targets that the Government are setting down here today is subverted by not extending the measures beyond 2017.
We need new long-term thinking and better means of delivery if we are to reinstil confidence among the fuel poor, among the consumers and taxpayers who have to pay for it, and among the industry which has to deliver it. We are not yet in that position. Many things are included within this document which I can support, but the overall level of delivery will be woefully short of what is required.
Baroness Verma
Again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his response and, again, I start by saying that we will disagree on most of the points he has raised because I think that these measures do address what he and the Government both recognise as being embedded structural issues that we have needed to address for a long time.
The noble Lord said that 2030 is a long way away, but these interim measures will ensure that at each juncture we will be able to see whether or not progress has been made, so that we are able to revise the way in which we are addressing a long and deeply embedded issue. Looking at households within a particular banding will enable us to measure far better those people who we are beginning to reach. There will always be areas that need improvement, and that is why it is absolutely right for the Government to take stock from time to time and look at who is benefiting and who is not, along with monitoring how well the programmes are working.
The noble Lord said that we need more scrutiny. We have committed to an annual fuel poverty debate. Regular reviews of the framework will be carried out, and we are reforming the Fuel Poverty Advisory Group. All that will hold us to account. It is really important that, whatever we do, we work towards the end mission: a firm principle which ensures that those who need help the most get help first. By implementing these measures, that is exactly what we will try to deliver.
I will write to the noble Lord about the fuel poverty gap and set out in a little more detail how through these measures we will increasingly be able to target homes by extending the ECO to 2017, which we considered in the previous debate. The fuel poverty gap underpins the principle that we need to help those who are worst off first. I had hoped that I had set that out quite clearly in my opening remarks, but I suspect that there are areas on which the noble Lord requires further clarity. I will read Hansard carefully to see whether there are any points which he feels I have not responded to fully.
The noble Lord also said that the ECO has deficiencies. A larger share of the ECO will be available to low-income households than ever before. Through the ECO we are seeking to evolve and improve on how we reach out and ensure that households are given help. We have made changes so that between now and 2017 there will be a greater drive to ensure that measures are in place for the most vulnerable households. However, it is right to say that there is always more to be done. We need to keep on looking at this issue and make sure that we are doing everything we can.
I think that if the noble Lord reads Hansard tomorrow, he will see that I have addressed some of his questions in my opening remarks. Ultimately, the Government have taken action in order to reach out and ensure that the long-term goal for all homes to be energy efficient is met. We should be able to drive energy costs down. We discussed in the previous debate the programme to bring forward smart meters, which will add another tool. Standing still and not implementing these measures would actually have increased bills, so the Government have gone a long way towards trying to reduce costs to the consumer. We have listened very hard to what consumers have said. While we believe firmly that we must reduce our carbon footprint and our carbon emissions, that must not be done at any cost. It cannot be done so that those who can least afford it feel the greatest pain.
Of course, I will write to the noble Lord with further detail on any points that I have not responded to here, and I commend the regulations.
Nursing and Midwifery (Amendment) Order 2014
(10 years ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, the Government have identified improvements that can be made to the legislation within which the Nursing and Midwifery Council operates, to improve public protection and increase public confidence in the Nursing and Midwifery Council. Therefore, the department carried out a UK-wide consultation on proposed changes to the Nursing and Midwifery Order 2001, which is the Nursing and Midwifery Council’s governing legislative framework. The majority of respondents supported these amendments.
The first of the proposed changes is to enable the Nursing and Midwifery Council to appoint case examiners who will be given powers currently exercised by the investigating committee to consider allegations of impairment of fitness to practise, following an initial screening which has considered that an investigation is appropriate. Two case examiners—one lay and one registrant—will consider the allegation, following the procedure set out in amendments to the Nursing and Midwifery Council (Fitness to Practise) Rules, which are being developed in parallel to this order by the Nursing and Midwifery Council.
The case examiners will then agree their decision on whether or not the registrant has a case to answer—this is the same process used by General Medical Council case examiners—and whether the allegation should therefore be considered by the health committee or by the conduct and competence committee. If case examiners fail to agree on whether there is a case to answer, the allegation will be referred to the investigating committee for determination. The introduction of case examiners should lead to the swifter resolution of complaints and thereby improve public protection and the efficiency of the Nursing and Midwifery Council’s fitness to practise processes, as well as reducing the stress to registrants caused by lengthy investigations.
The second change is to introduce a power for the council to review “no case to answer” decisions made at the end of the investigation stage in fitness to practise cases, and to make rules in connection with the carrying out of such a review. This will bring the Nursing and Midwifery Council’s power in line with the General Medical Council’s power.
The third change is to introduce a power to allow the council to delegate this function to the registrar—the chief executive. The amendments to the fitness to practise rules being developed by the NMC will provide that the registrar may review a “no case to answer” decision where new evidence comes to light that has a material impact on the original decision or if it is considered that the decision may be materially flawed, and in both cases that it is in the public interest to review. Save in exceptional circumstances, a review of a “no case to answer” decision cannot be commenced more than one year after the date of that decision.
The fourth change is to revise requirements for the composition of the registration appeal panel by removing the requirements for a Nursing and Midwifery Council member to chair the panel, which is intended to establish a clear separation of duties between the operational and governance functions to avoid suggestions of perceived bias and conflict. Additionally, it will remove the requirement for a registered medical practitioner to be on the panel in cases where the health of the person bringing the appeal is an issue. It is intended that medical advice will be provided by independent medical witnesses and reports to ensure the panel remains detached from that part of the process, and therefore making the process more robust and transparent. This will also ensure more consistency between registration appeals and fitness to practise appeals.
The fifth element is to clarify existing legislation that the Nursing and Midwifery Council’s Health Committee or Conduct and Competence Committee has the power to make a strike-off order in a health or lack of competence case upon a review of a final suspension order or conditions of practice order, provided the registrant has been the subject of such a final order for at least two years. This is not a new power but provides clarification of the existing legislation to protect patients and the public by ensuring that those whose fitness to practise is impaired cannot continue to practise.
The sixth change is to introduce a power for the Nursing and Midwifery Council to disclose to a third party certain information relating to a person’s indemnity arrangements for the purpose of verifying that information for the Nursing and Midwifery Council’s purposes. This will enable the Nursing and Midwifery Council to verify the information it receives to ensure that indemnity arrangements are in place and provide sufficient cover against the liabilities that many be incurred by a practising nurse and practising midwife registrant.
The seventh change is to give the Investigating Committee a new power to also make an interim order after it has referred a case to the Health Committee or to the Conduct and Competence Committee if that committee has not begun its consideration of the case. At present, once the Investigating Committee refers a case, the power to make an interim order rests only with the Conduct and Competence Committee or the Health Committee. This will ensure that if new information is received which suggests that an interim order is necessary for the protection of the public after a case has been referred to another practice committee, but before the committee has started to consider it, the Investigating Committee will have the power to make an interim order.
The introduction of case examiners and the power to review “no case to answer” decisions, made at the end of the investigation stage in fitness to practise cases will bring the Nursing and Midwifery Council in line with the General Medical Council. The implementation of these recommendations requires a Section 60 Health Act 1999 order to amend the legislation governing the Nursing and Midwifery Council. I commend this order to the Committee, and I beg to move.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, this amendment to the Nursing and Midwifery Order is to be welcomed. A regulatory body has to balance the respected traditions and structures of an informed 150 years of experience with the urgent needs of the current issues that the council faces when there may be rare problems with registered nurses and midwives. Much of what is proposed follows good practice. However, there is one area in which I have some minor queries and I wonder whether my noble friend the Minister can help.
The move away from independent consultants forming an investigation committee to having an in-house employed case examiner raises two minor concerns that are not reflected in the consultation response at paragraph 8.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum. Will the case examiners have extensive training in gathering the evidence that they will have to present to the quasi-judicial relevant committee considering each case? Will the benefits that other investigating groups such as Ofsted and local government inspectors have, given that at least one member of those teams comes in from outside, ensuring that there is always fresh challenge, be lost with this new arrangement?
Secondly, as employees of the council, will their job specification make it absolutely clear that they must conduct their role without fear or favour? It may be obvious when they are dealing with people outside the council but occasionally—very rarely—there may be a case where, for example, a decision not to have an interim suspension might have resulted in further injury or damage, and therefore members of the council themselves and other judgments might be being examined. The case examiners must be truly free to examine the council’s own processes and to feel no pressure from their own managers.
The no case to answer decision and the independent chair of the appeals panel are important and to be welcomed. However, given what I have just said about the case examiners, I find it slightly peculiar to remove the requirement for a registered medical practitioner to be on the panel, because that person in the past has provided that independent voice from the members of the council.
The points that I have raised are minor ones, and I welcome the order. However, I hope that I can have some reassurance on these points relating to the new role of case examiners.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for explaining the details of the order so clearly. However, he did not mention the Law Commission proposals for legislative changes relating to all health regulatory bodies. I note that the Explanatory Memorandum says that the Government will publish a response in due course, but I have to say that there is huge disappointment among the regulators that no Bill appeared this Session—not even one for pre-legislative scrutiny. Essentially, we are now faced with a series of Section 60 orders dealing with the regulatory bodies in an individual and piecemeal way, without the consistency and modernisation of the regulatory landscape that was promised by the Law Commission work. I hope that the noble Earl will be able to say a little more about when the Government will publish their response to the Law Commission proposals and perhaps give a little more information about how he sees the pipeline for Section 60 orders coming forward.
In particular, he will know that, in relation to the NMC, part of the Law Commission proposals were that there would be a reduction in the number of public hearings that have to take place. That would reduce the cost to the NMC and the time it takes to deal with cases. Given that we are not having primary legislation, is it the Government’s intention to bring forward as quickly as possible a Section 60 order in relation to that? As far as the proposals in this order are concerned, they seem sensible and unexceptional. I hope that they will lead to the NMC being able to be more efficient in its processes.
Having read the consultation document, I would just like to raise a couple of points on it. First, I will follow up what the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said about case examiners. The consultation document refers to a small number of people who are unsure about this proposal. I am particularly worried that as case examiners will be employees of the NMC, they will be target driven rather than acting as independent professionals. The consultation response from the Government says this will not be the case. It states:
“Although employed by NMC, Case Examiners will be both registrant and lay (non-registrant) and experienced senior decision makers who are used to making independent decisions”.
I very much endorse the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, on training and the need for people to be brought in to provide fresh challenges. However, this issue about targets is a very important one, and I wonder whether the noble Earl can give me a reassurance that there will not be targets—even unseen ones—in relation to cases and their outcomes. Can he just say a little more about how we can ensure that case examiners will be wholly protected when they carry out their duties? If they are in a managed organisation, they will be accountable to a manager, and we need to have some assurance that there is not going to be interference by the hierarchy of the NMC in case examiners’ decisions.
I would like to ask about another point raised in the consultation document. One response was about the need for more diversity on panels,
“in particular a point that black, minority and ethnic (BME) employees are disproportionally represented within the disciplinary systems of both employers and regulators”.
The consultation says:
“These comments have been fed back to the NMC to consider”.
Has the NMC now given consideration to that issue?
Turning to the Deregulation Bill, the noble Earl was present at our debate last week and will know that we have some concerns that, according to a list issued apparently by the Government, the Professional Standards Authority is subject to the economic growth duty within that Bill. I do not expect the noble Earl to answer me on that today. But, given that the Professional Standards Authority is to be involved, can I take it that by implication that duty will fall also to the NMC, the GMC and other professional regulatory bodies? Obviously, we will come back to this issue when the Deregulation Bill returns on Report but we are finding it difficult to find out the list of organisations that the Government consider should be encompassed within it.
Of course, the issue is that there may be an impediment to the non-economic regulators taking regulatory action because they now have to consider the economic growth duty. In the main, that will apply more to the CQC when dealing with organisations than it will to the individual regulatory bodies. But as the Government think that the PSA is encompassed within the Bill, I would be interested in a response from the Government.
Will the noble Earl say something about the overall performance of the NMC? He will know that this has been the subject of some concern and indeed scrutiny by the Health Select Committee. At the most recent accountability hearing in 2013, the Health Select Committee concluded:
“The NMC is an organisation with a recent history of poor performance, including lack of focus on its core regulatory activities, financial mismanagement and long delays in processing Fitness to Practise cases”.
The PSA’s 2013 performance review of the nine healthcare regulators it oversees, which was published in July this year, stated that the NMC,
“is not yet meeting eight of the 24 Standards of Good Regulation”.
I know that in the 2013 accountability hearing the Health Select Committee concluded that,
“the NMC has made progress”—
indeed, I pay tribute to the chief executive and the chairman, who have done a lot to ensure that this happens—but it also says that,
“more progress is required before the NMC can be regarded as an effective regulator”.
Would the noble Earl care to comment on that?
The Select Committee also looked at the issue of revalidation. Following the introduction of revalidation for doctors, the need for revalidation for nurses is self-evident. The Health Select Committee says that it welcomes,
“the commitment of the NMC to introduce revalidation for nurses and midwives from the end of 2015”,
but that,
“it does not believe the NMC yet has a workable plan to deliver this commitment”.
That is the 2013 report of the accountability hearing. The Select Committee has not yet had the 2014 hearing, which I think will take place in January. Will the noble Earl update the Committee on whether he now thinks that the NMC has a workable plan?
Overall, this is a sensible order. We need to do everything we can to help the NMC improve its processes. I express my thanks to the current leadership of the NMC and the work that it has done. It clearly needs to do more and Parliament needs to be prepared to help it. If we are not going to have a substantive Bill, I would have thought it a priority to bring further Section 60 orders in relation to the Nursing and Midwifery Council, particularly on the question of whether we can help it streamline its fitness to practise hearings.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for their questions and comments. My noble friend Lady Brinton asked for reassurance about the case examiners. Under the proposals, the two case examiners will independently review the evidence and then agree their decision. This is the same process as used by GMC case examiners, and I am not aware of any particular difficulties that it has encountered in this connection. If the case examiners cannot agree the decision, the case will then be referred to the investigating committee for determination, as I explained.
My noble friend asked about training of the case examiners. Two case examiners, one lay and one registered nurse or midwife, will consider an allegation of impairment of fitness to practise, whereas three investigating committee members are required at present. Co-ordinating meetings of the investigating committee members is time-consuming due to panel members having other commitments or requiring refreshed training. A case examiner will be a skilled role. They will develop expertise that will lead to greater consistency when making decisions because they will be considering a greater number of cases on a regular basis than individual members of a large pool of investigating committee members. This will speed up the fitness-to-practise process and result in reduced costs.
My noble friend asked whether the job specification of case examiners, as employees of the council, must specify that they carry out their roles without fear or favour and be truly free to make comments. Case examiners will be employed by the NMC, whereas investigating committee members, who currently consider allegations of fitness to practise, are chosen from a pool of around 100 individuals who provide their services to the NMC as independent contractors. But, once again, there is no reason to suppose that, as professional people, they will feel inhibited from voicing their full and frank views whenever they feel the need to do so. Despite their being employees, it is more than any professional’s self-esteem is worth to feel inhibited in that sense. It is a very responsible role. While the individuals will need to be carefully chosen, I have confidence that this arrangement will work.
My noble friend asked about the removal of the requirement for a registered medical practitioner to form part of the panel where health is an issue. We consider it more appropriate for medical advice to be provided by independent expert witnesses and medical reports. Having an independent medical witness will ensure that the panel remains detached from that part of the process and is therefore more able to make an independent decision so making the process more robust and transparent. This would ensure consistency between registration appeals and fitness-to-practise appeals.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, expressed concern that case examiners might be target driven, and this was an issue raised in the consultation. We do not believe that this will be the case. Although they will be employed by the NMC, case examiners will be both registrant and lay; that is, a registrant nurse or midwife and a lay person. Their role will be distinct; they will be responsible only for making an assessment of whether a registrant has a case to answer against an allegation that is made to the NMC that their fitness to practise is impaired. They will make their decisions impartially and independently, and based solely on the information provided for the case, including any representations made by the registrant. Any such decision would be made by a pair of case examiners. The NMC will seek to appoint people to these roles who have demonstrated sufficient skills and experience to make robust decisions. The NMC’s case examiner resource will be sufficient to ensure that all decisions will be considered on their merits, without any undue time pressure. Case examiners will not be involved in undertaking the fitness to practise investigation itself, nor in presenting cases at any final hearing.
Employment and Law Tribunals
The Earl of Glasgow
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they define the word “discrimination” with particular reference to employment law and tribunals.
The Earl of Glasgow (LD)
My Lords, up until about 10 years ago the word “discrimination” had no derogatory implications. It simply meant a choice based on relevant information. You chose one thing or one person in preference to another because you had convinced yourself that that thing or person better suited your purposes. You discriminate when you buy a packet of cereal in the supermarket or when you choose a new car and, if there is any choice in the matter, you discriminate when you choose a wife, husband or partner, and he or she has the opportunity to discriminate back.
However, now it seems that the word discrimination has come to mean one thing: “unfair” discrimination, or, in the case of employment tribunals, “unlawful” discrimination. The law attempts to define discrimination by combining the deliberations of a number of Acts—the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, the Race Relations Act 1976, the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and the Equality Act 2010.
We all accept the necessity and desirability of laws to prevent unfair or prejudiced racial, sex or disability discrimination but, as time has gone by, the definition of discrimination has got wider and wider and now encompasses almost anything or anybody who, for whatever reason, has a grievance and feels they have been unfairly treated. I contend that the laws on discrimination actually go against common sense.
For instance, no employer of a small business who is in his right mind is going to take on as a new employee a girl who is pregnant, and yet, as the law now stands, the girl who is refused the job for that reason can take her potential employer to a tribunal for unfair discrimination. She would be right—it was discrimination: but not unfair, simply sensible. That is not the same as an employer firing a girl who becomes pregnant after working for the company for two years or more. In that case she would expect to keep her job and the law would rightly back her up on this.
My interest in this question of discrimination stems from a recent personal experience. I am the owner of a visitor attraction in Scotland, which provides a number of entertainments for the public and employs up to 40 people during the height of the season. It has been running for nearly 40 years now and I had always believed that staff relations were pretty good. However, in 2011, after a series of bad years and trading losses, I was compelled, with pressure from the bank, to cut down on staff during the quieter winter months.
There were two people working on the accounts, and I decided that I could manage with only one. I wrote to the bookkeeper to explain that I was going to lay her off for four months in the winter. At the time I did not appreciate, as I do now, that under employment law laying someone off is the same as making someone redundant. I had therefore not followed the correct procedures. The bookkeeper decided to take me to a tribunal. I was successful in agreeing a settlement with her union representative, but she refused to accept it. She wanted to charge me with discrimination. Another thing I did not appreciate at the time was that if you win a case of discrimination against your employer, you can be awarded at least 10 times the amount you are likely to receive as a result of him not following the proper procedures.
The case went to the tribunal. Her no-win no-fee lawyer was determined to prove that his client had been discriminated against. She had been employed for longer than the accountant, who by the way happened to be a heavy drinker, and therefore he should have been laid off instead of her. She had a disabled son who needed special care, and she asserted that we had not taken this circumstance into sufficient consideration. She also claimed that my manager favoured another female member of our staff over her, and that she should have been offered her job instead of being laid off.
Many of the staff were called in as witnesses and nine full days were spent on the case. Indeed, it took two years to be concluded. The result was that she failed to convince the tribunal or anyone else that she had been discriminated against and, as I expected, I had to pay a fine for not complying with the proper procedures. The tribunal had spent nine days attempting to disentangle a charge of discrimination which was always more than questionable.
After the case was over, I learnt from my lawyer, who specialises in employment law, that almost half of his cases are concerned with defending employers like myself against charges of discrimination brought by disgruntled former employees, and that the majority of discrimination claims are thrown out by the tribunals. As the law stands at present, no-win no-fee lawyers stand to gain a lot more if they can establish discrimination against their client. That is why they encourage them to go for that charge, even if the odds are stacked against them.
Speaking as a small businessman, and based on my recent experience, discrimination laws are the ones we fear the most because they are so broadly based. They offer a disgruntled or troublemaking employee a great deal of opportunity to hold their employer to ransom. Of course an employer is going to favour a hardworking and loyal member of staff over a lazy and difficult one, but as the law stands, that is already a discrimination. Discrimination has come to mean “unfair”, which is neither rational nor sensible. So we employers, who must discriminate sensibly in order to run our businesses, must be careful not to look as though we are being discriminatory. Unsuitable employees who fear for their future must build up a history of incidents so that, if need be, they can be read at a later date as being discriminating against them.
I tried to bring up the issue of discrimination and tribunals during consideration of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill, which became law in 2013. However, I was discouraged from doing so. I was told that it was too complicated, and besides it was all tied up with the European law. I got the feeling that discrimination was regarded as too much of a hot potato and that it was the duty of tribunals to deal with it. That is all very well, but these are long tribunal hearings which usually end with the charges of discrimination being thrown out. This is costing the country millions of pounds every year. Surely we are trying to make savings across all government departments.
Measures against discrimination on the grounds of race, sex and physical disability are clearly necessary and, if anything, the law should be strengthened in these areas. Obviously, there must be laws to redress and compensate employees who have been dismissed or treated unfairly, but charges of discrimination are much too subjective and open to interpretation. For instance, as regards age, I am over 70 and in many situations I expect to be discriminated against. Who would want to employ me if a vigorous, enterprising man of 40 was the alternative?
Employment law, as it stands, is quite hard enough for small businesses to comply with. Will the Government consider dismantling or at least revisiting the laws on discrimination to at least make them more sensible? It could save the country a lot of money.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to look at the legislation which underpins our equality practices in the UK. I would say to the noble Earl that I see myself as discriminating. I do not see that there is a problem with the use of the word, and I am not quite sure what other word one would use in these circumstances.
It is against the law to discriminate against anyone because of their age, being or becoming a transsexual person, being married or in a civil partnership, being pregnant or having a child, disability, race, including colour, nationality, ethnicity or national origin—and, I hope, caste at some point—religion, belief or lack of religion or belief, sex and sexual orientation. These are called protected characteristics. You are protected from discrimination at work, in education, as a consumer, when using public services, when buying or renting property or as a member or guest of a private club or association. These protections from discrimination are covered by the Equality Act 2010. I cannot think which of those the noble Earl would suggest that we should get rid of because it seems to me that all of them can be justified in different ways.
Discrimination can be direct or indirect, which involves putting rules or arrangements in place that apply to everyone but which put some people at an unfair disadvantage, or it can come in the form of harassment or victimisation. It seems to me that those anti-discrimination provisions are all perfectly legitimate.
The law protects you against discrimination at work, including discrimination in dismissal, employment terms and conditions, pay and benefits, promotion, training, recruitment and redundancy. If you are disabled, you have to have the same rights as other workers. It seems to me that in a civilised society one needs these provisions to underpin the rights of employees. You are also protected from being treated unfairly because of trade union membership or the provisions of a fixed-term contract or as a part-time worker.
I had a small business for about eight or nine years before I became a Minister in the previous Administration. Running that business was a very happy period of my life. I never employed more than nine or 10 people, quite a few of whom were young women, so I did deal with two lots of maternity leave and with disciplinary issues from time to time, and I even parted company with one of my employees over that period. All of that was done in accordance with the legislative framework covering employment, maternity rights and so on. I did not find any of that difficult. A lot of advice is available from different sources, including government agencies, telling employers how to deal with these issues.
If you are going to employ people, it seems to me that you have to make sure that you understand what your responsibilities as an employer are. I suggest that good and sensible employers have nothing to fear and, indeed, should take pride in the good staff relations that being a good employer brings, as well as benefits to the bottom line such as lack of staff turnover and harmony within the workplace. It is obviously very difficult to part company with an employee, but there are clear procedures and steps that you take in doing that. So long as you follow the procedure, the outcome is usually the one that you are seeking as an employer. I am not quite sure what the noble Earl wishes would happen. None of these things is easy but they are all quite doable.
I have some questions about employment tribunals for the Minister, which I have warned her about. In a way, I am returning to the issues that I raised yesterday in Question Time. Since July 2013, workers who have been sexually harassed, sacked because of their race or bullied because of their sexuality are forced to pay £1,200 for their claim to be heard by an employment tribunal. Those seeking to recover unpaid wages or holiday pay have to pay £390. The introduction of these fees has had a devastating impact on people’s access to justice in employment tribunals. It is slightly ironic that the noble Earl has raised the issue of the waste of money and the use of employment tribunals. I am not happy about this, but he might be happy to hear that the latest figures show that there has been an 84% drop in the number of people going to employment tribunals. That is not good because it means that lots of people are being deterred from seeking justice in unfair situations by these fees. I asked the Minister yesterday whether the Government will recognise that this is inherently unfair and discriminatory and that it is a policy they should think about reversing.
It is not only to do with employment, but also with other claims of discrimination. These are figures from the Ministry of Justice. During the first three months of 2014, the number of race discrimination and sexual orientation claims fell by 60% compared with the same period in 2013. Disability claims have experienced a 46% year-on-year reduction. That means that there are hundreds of people with disabilities and people of colour who think they have been discriminated against or harassed at their place of work who are deterred from taking action because of the charges. I ask the Minister what the Government are going to do about that.
The Earl of Glasgow
I am not against employment law, which I think is quite sensible. I was wrong, because it was a bit of employment law that I did not understand. I now understand it and I will never do that again. That is not what I was saying. It is the fact that someone can make claims for discrimination, as the person in my case did. Her lawyer was advising her to get more money, because she could get a lot more money from me if she claimed that she had been discriminated against. I thought the way that that was handled was extremely unpleasant. It was a very nasty episode in my life.
Baroness Thornton
I absolutely accept that it is unpleasant, but if somebody feels that they have been discriminated against, it is their right to seek redress. The fact that the case was not proved means that the law is working.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Glasgow for calling today’s debate on discrimination, with particular reference to employment law and tribunals. Eradication of discrimination in this country remains a priority for this Government, as I shall set out.
First, I would like to explain for the benefit of the Committee that, subject to certain exceptions, discrimination is prohibited in the Equality Act 2010 where it occurs because of a person’s protected characteristic. The protected characteristics are age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief, sex and sexual orientation. As my noble friend pointed out, the 2010 Act brought together and strengthened a raft of equality legislation that had built up over time, beginning with the race and sex discrimination Acts of the 1960s and 1970s. Protection generally applies across a number of fields, notably employment, the provision of services, and the exercise of public functions, schools and transport.
The Government have added further protections since 2010, chief among them the introduction of provisions for the marriage of same-sex couples. In October 2012 we also brought in the prohibition on age discrimination in the provision of goods, facilities and services. Unusually, neither of these initiatives was required under EU law, but most of the protections in the 2010 Act are and implement either an equal treatment directive or a decision of the Court of Justice of the European Union.
As with other employment laws, the 2010 Act’s provisions, as they relate to the field of employment, are enforceable at an employment tribunal where attempts at non-judicial settlement have failed. I note my noble friend’s attempt to settle his case through non-judicial means. A party losing at a tribunal has the option to appeal the decision to the Employment Appeal Tribunal. Fees are now charged for lodging cases at a tribunal but if an appeal succeeds, the tribunal may order the employer to refund the fees as well as pay compensation to the claimant.
My noble friend mentioned a suggested award of 10 times the claim if discrimination had been proven, but while that might have been the claim it would have been fairly exceptional for a discrimination award. Most awards are still in the hundreds or very low thousands of pounds. Nevertheless, the level of compensation in discrimination cases is in theory unlimited. This is a requirement under EU law, since any statutory capping of compensation means that victims of discrimination do not have an effective remedy.
When considering cases of alleged discrimination, employment tribunals will therefore have regard to the Equality Act 2010. The Act includes a number of key provisions which together define “discrimination” for the purposes of that legislation. For the purpose of this debate, I will talk briefly about the definition of “direct discrimination” in the 2010 Act. Section 13 defines direct discrimination as the “less favourable treatment” of a person because they have one or more protected characteristics.
Following EU directives and a ruling by the European Court of Justice, this definition of direct discrimination is now broad enough to cover cases where the less favourable treatment happens because of a person’s association with someone who has one or more protected characteristics; for example, where a person is treated less favourably because they are associated with someone who has a disability. This definition also covers situations where people are wrongly thought to have a protected characteristic; for example, where a person is not offered a job because they are wrongly thought to be gay.
I appreciate that my noble friend might have concerns about the breadth of the legal definitions of discrimination, but I have to say that the Government fully support the approach of the 2010 Act, since a narrower definition would exclude from protection people who really ought to be protected. We have, however, been discriminating—as opposed to discriminatory—in our approach to the Act. As I have mentioned, we have implemented most of the Act, including one or two key protections, such as that against age discrimination in the provision of goods and services, in the past couple of years. At the same time, we have sought to protect employers and businesses from excessive regulation by repealing or leaving uncommenced some unnecessary, outdated or otherwise unsatisfactory provisions in our drive for better regulation.
My noble friend may also be concerned about legal costs and a burgeoning legal industry around discrimination claims, but I have to say that this is not borne out by the recent statistics, which show that disability discrimination claims in the first quarter of the current year fell by 31% compared with the first quarter of last year. Indeed, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, pointed out, a general and significant fall in claims of 59% since 2012-13 for all employment claims, including discrimination, has clearly been one of the key developments in this area of litigation during this Parliament. It is attributable to a number of factors; namely, better compliance by employers and a major drive towards encouraging pre-hearing settlements through the involvement of ACAS in every claim—as well as, no doubt, the introduction of a fee structure.
I hear what the noble Baroness says about her concerns that fees are pricing claimants out of the justice system. The Government believe that it is reasonable to move away from employment tribunal funding being largely provided by the taxpayer towards a more balanced process, where the £74 million cost of administering claims to the employment tribunal system are met in part by those who use and benefit from the system. However, the Government are being very careful in ensuring that fee waivers are available for people of limited means so that they are not excluded from seeking redress in tribunals. The Government have committed to reviewing the introduction of fees and are currently considering the scope and timing of the review, and we will bring forward our plans in due course. I hope that provides some reassurance to the noble Baroness.
Whatever weight one gives to each of these factors, it can no longer be claimed that employers are being subjected to an ever-increasing volume and array of discrimination claims to the benefit of lawyers. The nature of the law has remained the same but the litigation arising from it and the claims confronting employers as a result of it have been substantially reduced.
I turn now to some of my noble friend’s specific questions. Why cannot discrimination be more precisely defined? The UK definition of discrimination is largely dictated by European measures such as the treaties and various directives. It is not for the Government to define discrimination. This has already been done by Parliament and it is now for the courts and employment tribunals to apply the statutory definition of discrimination to the facts of the different cases they hear. It sounds as though that was done in my noble friend’s case, but obviously not until after a quite long and lengthy business.
My noble friend asked about employees abusing the discrimination laws by making vexatious and frivolous discrimination claims. Anyone who feels that they have been wronged is entitled to make a claim. Whether they will be successful is a matter for tribunal judges to decide. However, as I have mentioned, the latest statistics show that there has been a sharp decrease in the volume of cases brought before employment tribunals. Among other factors, this fall can be attributed to the impact of mandatory conciliation. This was introduced in May 2014 and will probably help a great number of small employers in the position that my noble friend found himself in.
My noble friend also mentioned the hiring or firing of pregnant women. In the case he quoted, surely the outcome for the woman is the same. Whether she is taken on or whether she is fired, the result is that she is deemed not to be employable when she is pregnant. That is one of the things we have tried to move away from in the laws that have been introduced.
My noble friend claims that the compensation award for successful discrimination cases is too high.
Baroness Thornton
The noble Baroness is absolutely right on the point she has just made. Many years ago I was in charge of the CABs in north London and I was looking for a Spanish speaker to work in the Paddington law centre. The best candidate was a six-month pregnant Chilean woman. I gave her the job because she was the best candidate and I believed that she would not have put herself forward if she did not think she could manage that job and having a baby. You know what? She was brilliant.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
There we are. Thank you very much for that. My noble friend and I are both Liberal Democrats, a party with a long-standing commitment to equality, a proud record of tackling inequality and of trying to face up to discrimination in the past. We strongly support the need for the law to defend the rights of all citizens to play a full part in an increasingly global society, whether or not they are pregnant, as the noble Baroness said.
My noble friend has raised a difficult case which merits airing. I hope this clarifies for him, to some extent, the Government’s position on the definition of discrimination. If he had a similar case again now, the mediation and the other factors would perhaps result in a happier conclusion at an earlier stage for him.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
It was a happy conclusion but it was not a happy process. I hope the process has now been improved.
The operation of employment tribunals which hear discrimination cases is of great importance and the Government seek always to strike the right balance between the rights of claimants on the one hand and those of employers such as my noble friend on the other.
I again thank my noble friend for bringing this debate forward and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for her contribution. I hope we have brought clarity to this matter.
House of Lords
Schools: Classics
(10 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Lexden
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to promote the teaching of classics in schools.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, we believe that classics can form a key part of a well rounded education or, to put it in words that I am sure my noble friend will understand, fundamentum disciplinae universae. We are providing £0.5 million to fund training for non-specialist teachers of classics in state secondary schools, led by Professor Pelling of Oxford University. From this September, maintained primary schools must teach a modern or ancient language to seven to 11 year-olds. In secondaries, achievement of an A to C grade in an ancient language GCSE counts towards the English baccalaureate.
Lord Lexden (Con)
Floreant literae humaniores. Is my noble friend absolutely confident that enough is being done to increase the number of classics teachers in response to the very welcome surge in interest in state schools? Does he agree that partnership in classics teaching between independent and state schools is already flourishing and that the right way to increase it is by voluntary agreement, supported and encouraged by government, and not by government compulsion, as the party opposite now proposes?
Lord Nash
My Lords, ITT places for classics are up 25% and we have increased the bursaryship for classics and modern foreign languages. I fully agree with my noble friend that the classics are a fruitful subject for partnership. I am sure that he will be pleased to hear that we announced a fortnight ago a number of independent/state school partnerships, including one for Latin involving Thomas’s Kensington in collaboration with three state primary schools, with a further three language partnerships. I wholeheartedly agree that such partnerships should grow from voluntary initiatives, such as these ISSP programmes, and not be forced by government.
Lord Morgan (Lab)
My Lords, in view of the popularity of television programmes on classical civilisation, would it not be good to encourage state schools to put on more courses in the area of classical studies, relating language to history, philosophy, architecture and other aspects of the classical world? Would this not give a more rounded and attractive possibility for students in state school and perhaps give the classics an equality with modern subjects, ceteris paribus?
Lord Nash
Classical civilisation is a very valuable subject in its own right and can stimulate children’s interest in Latin and classical Greek. Indeed, classical civilisation at GCSE has been up 12% in the last five years. Primary schools must teach pupils about the Roman Empire and its impact on Britain and about ancient Greece. They may also, of course, teach about other ancient civilisations, such as those in Mesopotamia and Egypt.
Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the very best things that the Mayor of London has done was to support Classics for All, which has already promoted 100 new classics courses in schools and hopes to double that in 2015?
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
Is the Minister aware that the teaching of classics is supplemented by private provision, such as the excellent week-long residential courses in Latin conducted, very appropriately, at Gladstone’s Library? Will he consider supplementing or assisting pupils from the state sector who are currently missing out with bursaries to attend such courses?
Lord Nash
My noble friend refers to an excellent programme, which I would like to hear more about. I hope that, after the election, there will be a further round of independent/state school partnerships, which have been promoted by this Government. I would welcome an application in that regard.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as having spent a disproportionate amount of my childhood studying Latin and Greek. Is it not obvious that learning to decline the pluperfect subjunctive and to tell the difference between a gerund and a gerundive is a good preparation for modern life and that study of the classics may indeed enable citizens to know what the plural is of “referendum”—whether it is “referendums” or “referenda” or neither?
Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)
Is the Minister aware that Latin always has some friends and supporters, of which I am one? A little Latin in life gives a bit of intermittent pleasure from time to time. What is more to the point, I welcome what the Government have done in restoring modern foreign languages to the 16 year-old GCSE EBacc. That is a really significant move. I did it many years ago. It was dropped. I welcome its return.
Lord Nash
I am grateful for the noble Lord’s comments. It is true that under the previous Government the number of core academic subjects slumped, but they are now reviving. Spanish GCSE particularly is up by 50% and, of course, these subjects qualify for both EBacc and the Progress 8 measure, which is coming in in 2016.
Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that some decades ago there was an authoritative study into some 2,000 words in ordinary parlance in the English language? Of those, about 75% were directly derived from Latin. A similar study in Wales in relation to the Welsh language found the figure to be of the order of 85%. I congratulate the Minister, therefore, on the approach that the Government are taking in looking at Latin not just as something belonging to a classical and distinguished past but as a building block from which so many modern languages are derived.
Baroness King of Bow (Lab)
Only 5% of private schools lend specialist teaching staff to state schools. If a local private school teaches classics, but the state school next door does not, does the Minister agree that private schools should make their classics teacher available? If the private schools will not help, why does the Minister think that they should continue to receive tax breaks?
Lord Nash
I entirely agree with the direction of travel in relation to the statements made recently by the Shadow Secretary of State for Education. It would be nice to see the independent and state sectors collaborating more. However, many private schools are very small—we all think about the very large, substantial private schools—and such arrangements would be extremely difficult. We are trying to encourage them as much as possible, particularly in subject-specific teaching, which is why we have just had this round of independent/state school partnerships.
Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)
Is the Minister aware that there are several Members of your Lordships’ House who studied in a grammar school in the Gorbals of Glasgow, where the emphasis was very much on classics? Furthermore, it has now been discovered by studying the choruses in Aristophanes that the pronunciation that we were taught in Glasgow was much more akin to what the ancient Greeks spoke than the pronunciation taught in England?
Calais: Illegal Immigrants
(10 years ago)
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Lord Brabazon of Tara
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assistance they are giving to British lorry drivers at Calais to deter illegal immigrants from attempting to board their lorries.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)
My Lords, the Home Office publishes guidance advising hauliers on vehicle security and what they should do if they believe that somebody is hiding in their vehicle. The guidance is available on the GOV.UK website and includes contact details for the Border Force’s clandestine entrant civil penalty team, from which hauliers are also receiving direct advice.
Lord Brabazon of Tara (Con)
I thank my noble friend for that reply. I am pleased that the Government have now made arrangements for new fencing, paid for by the Government, and for rearranging the border controls, which should help in a modest way, because lorry drivers are having a very difficult time at the moment. With, apparently, more than 2,000 people trying to come in as illegal immigrants at the moment, what discussions are we having with the French Government to try to find a long-term solution to this problem?
Lord Bates
In many ways, the juxtaposed operation which takes place in Calais and Dunkirk and at the tunnel entrance is part of that ongoing discussion. That has been a huge success in providing a triple-layered level of security for vehicles to go through, and it has already seen 18,000 clandestine migrants identified on the French side of the channel in the past year.
Lord Sugar (Lab)
Is the Minister satisfied with the manner in which the French police and other authorities are carrying out their job? Does he feel that they are really interested in the problem? My experience of dealing with the French in the commercial world, with the greatest respect, is that they think, “It is not our problem”. One wonders whether they want to get rid of these people as quickly as possible. Is there a case for putting some of our people there to invigilate?
Lord Bates
The noble Lord is absolutely right in the sense that that is exactly what the juxtaposed operation in Calais and Dunkirk is doing. We have Border Force people on the ground augmenting the work done by the port-side authorities. In addition, we have sniffer dogs on the port side, as well as the fencing which we are introducing. That co-operation is there; we should like it to be extended.
Lord Condon (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister understand and perhaps share the concern felt by many interested observers who have followed the situation for many years and believe that it is capable of much better resolution? If he shares that concern, what does he think is the major impediment preventing a lesser threat to drivers and greater safety for these tragic migrants?
Lord Bates
I acknowledge the noble Lord’s great experience in this area. From my preparation for this Question, I think that if the simple task of securing the vehicle—ensuring that it is covered and padlocked—happened, the problem would be reduced dramatically. Basic security measures and education of drivers are critical, as is maintaining the maximum £2,000 civil penalty fine if they fail to do that and migrants come into this country.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, these are desperate people looking for a better life, but clearly we have to maintain the integrity of our immigration policy. When people arrive, how much time is taken to sift those who have a proper claim for refugee status and those who are simply economic refugees?
Lord Bates
If they are stopped at the French border, that is an issue for the French. If they arrive in the UK, they have the opportunity to apply for asylum. The asylum regime is there and advice is available to them. I must say that in a lot of these cases—this backs up the claim made by the noble Lord—they actually want to be put back in France so that they can try again, because they want to get into this country to work illegally.
Lord Jopling (Con)
My Lords, the Minister will know that at the port of Calais there is very sophisticated X-ray equipment that can see whether there are people hiding inside containers. Can he tell us what proportion of lorries are monitored with that equipment, or is it just a random selection, with only a small proportion being vetted in that way?
Lord Bates
All vehicles have to go through that level of vetting, which is carried out by the Border Force using the latest technology for sensing whether there are people in the vehicle. That is a strong safeguard.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord is talking about lorries but is he aware that desperate migrants will get access to any vehicle in order to seek a better life? Many people travelling to France in their cars for the weekend to do some shopping are being advised in Calais not to leave their cars empty, even to go into a shop or to have lunch. What advice has the Minister given to domestic travellers to Calais, and does he think that we have enough border staff, given the cuts imposed by the Government?
Lord Bates
The Border Force has been reformed. We now have a stronger border agency and the toughest border regime in the world. We have 200 million people crossing into the country. The reality is that domestic tourists and other travellers there should be aware that this is a major problem and that it is only going to get worse. They have to use the same level of security to protect their vehicles.
Lord Tebbit (Con)
Can the Minister explain why these people arrive here? Surely they have been in France. Are they fleeing from persecution in France? What is wrong with the French state that it does not accept its obligation to look after such people?
Lord Bates
My noble friend raises a profound issue, which is that there is a difference in economic performance among countries across Europe. The fact that unemployment in this country is falling dramatically and the economy is growing, and that the opposite is so in France, is acting as a pull factor into this country.
Greater Manchester
(10 years ago)
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Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to develop the economy of Greater Manchester.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, this Government are committed to rebalancing the economy and to supporting growth in Greater Manchester through a growth deal, city deal and enterprise zone. Earlier this month the Government and councils in Greater Manchester agreed to create a directly elected mayor for Greater Manchester with wide powers over economic development, housing, policing and planning.
Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the decision to establish a Greater Manchester Combined Authority, but does my noble friend agree that there must be effective scrutiny of the decision-making of such a body, so that local people and businesses know who is deciding what and how? Will the Government, therefore, encourage these councils to make sure that that happens, so that there is transparency and clear accountability?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I absolutely agree that clear accountability is vital. That is why the Government and councils have agreed that there will be a democratically elected mayor to oversee the new powers and funding. Indeed, beyond 2016-17 these new powers will be conditional on the elected mayor being in place.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
Does the Minister not recall that—rather alarmingly, I thought—at the beginning of this Parliament there seemed to be complete agreement between the leadership of the Conservative Party, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party that the people of the big cities in England would relish the prospect of establishing a system of directly elected mayors? Rather unwisely, from their perspective, they put that proposal to 10 cities in Britain in the form of rather expensive referendums, and the people of these great cities—very wisely, in my view—decided that they did not want this expensive innovation, which had not worked nearly so well in London as some people were suggesting. At the very least, can the Minister assure us that the views of the people in these cities will in future be respected, and that should there be any change in the structure of local government in the direction of directly elected mayors it would be put to the people in a referendum?
Lord Newby
My Lords, some cities—notably Bristol—have decided to have an elected mayor, and the elected mayor in London, of whatever colour, has proved an effective spokesperson and advocate for London. There are no plans for a referendum for a directly elected mayor for Greater Manchester.
Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)
My Lords, the prime driver of the success story that is Manchester has been the growth of the airport. It now sustains 40,000 jobs and has flights to more than 200 destinations, which is actually rather more than Heathrow. With the onward development of Airport City and, in the longer term, the siting of the HS2 terminal adjacent to the airport, is my noble friend satisfied that the road network in that area will be able to cope with the increased traffic, particularly the A538 which at present, frankly, is in places rather quaint?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I absolutely agree with my noble friend that the airport has been a huge success. Transport links to the airport have been greatly enhanced and it now has one of the best intermodal hubs of any airport in the UK. Further funding is going in for roads—the A6 Manchester Airport relief road is being funded by the Department for Transport via the Greater Manchester Combined Authority. Any funding of the kind that my noble friend seeks for the A538 would most likely come from the growth deal process, which is now under way.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as I used to represent a part of Greater Manchester, namely Oldham, a town of which I am inordinately proud and eager to assist. However, how does the Minister think that the Chancellor can sustain the pretence of being a champion of the north when he has cut local government funding for northern cities such as Manchester, Leeds and Liverpool more than he has the wealthier areas of southern England?
Lord Newby
My Lords, we have to look at what has been happening to the Greater Manchester economy and the north-west more generally, where there has been a massive increase in the number of apprenticeships, for example, and a dramatic fall in unemployment. There is specific funding in terms of hundreds of millions of pounds of additional funding for rail developments and to innovative new world-leading developments in the Manchester area, such as the National Graphene Institute.
The Earl of Listowel (CB)
My Lords, in continuing this process of development in Greater Manchester, does the Minister not agree that it is the training and development of the people that are so important? In that regard, will he draw the attention of the leadership of Manchester to the report of my noble friend Lady Howarth on family learning, which was supported by the National Institute of Adult Continuing Education? It highlights the effectiveness of family learning for developing skills in the workforce.
Lord Newby
My Lords, one of the key things about the devolution of powers to Manchester is that it covers some of these areas. For example, services in terms of targeted employment support for vulnerable people have already been devolved to Manchester, and there are others. The “Working Well” pilot is also doing extremely well in that area and other plans on integrating health and social care have been devolved down to Manchester, so what the noble Earl is seeking is all part of that process.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, a key part of the Greater Manchester deal is public bus franchising, which is a good Labour Party policy. Can the Minister confirm that this has been a huge success in London, where it has led to a doubling in bus passenger numbers over the last 10 years? We confidently expect that it will do the same in Manchester, so will he confirm that the same offer will be available to other cities that request it of the Government?
Lord Newby
My Lords, I can, certainly in terms of franchised bus services and for integrated smart ticketing across all modes of transport in Greater Manchester, which has been a success in London. The Government have made it clear that if other cities wish to follow the Manchester model, requests to do so will be sympathetically received.
Lord Smith of Leigh (Lab)
My Lords, first, I declare an interest in that I am chair of the Greater Manchester Combined Authority. While I welcome the deal that we have with the Government on devolution, can the Minister confirm that the mayoral offer in Manchester is not like the Mayor of London? It is a Manchester model built on working with the combined authority, which has been successful in the past.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I can, and the key difference between the Manchester and London models is the very tight integration between this proposed new post and the local council, so that they will all work together to deliver policy that will result from the new mayor being put in place.
Offenders: Rehabilitation
(10 years ago)
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Lord Cormack
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their policy on the rehabilitation of offenders who have served their sentences and wish to resume their careers.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)
My Lords, most convictions become spent after a specified period and the person is then treated as though they had not committed the offence. The Government have reduced rehabilitation periods and allowed more convictions to become spent. However, to maintain public protection, certain spent convictions are disclosed for sensitive occupations.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer, but would he not accept that sending someone to prison is the punishment and that the purpose of prison, wherever possible, should be to rehabilitate so that that person can return to normal life and live a normal life? I accept that that is not always possible, but in most cases it should be. It is grievous to think of young people, in particular, who have had a successful career but who have made a mess, not being allowed to do that and almost being encouraged to reoffend.
Lord Faulks
I entirely accept that at least a significant part of imprisonment should be concerned with rehabilitation. I also accept what my noble friend says about the importance of encouraging ex-offenders to resume their life in so far as possible. We do, however, expect employers to be sensitive to re-employing offenders, depending on the particular nature of the employment.
Baroness Corston (Lab)
My Lords, while acknowledging the importance of the opportunity to resume career and noting that many men who come out of prison have a family home to which they can return, is the Minister aware that for the overwhelming majority of women coming out of prison, accommodation is their priority, not employment? They want somewhere to live with their children. Is he aware that women who are remanded for 28 days and who are not then charged lose their home and their children, with little chance of getting either back?
Lord Faulks
That is clearly a matter of concern. The Government are aware that that can be an issue and are anxious to ensure, so far as possible, that when offenders leave prison they are given as much support as possible. The noble Baroness will be aware of the transforming rehabilitation steps that have been taken by this Government. We wish to ensure, so far as possible, that the return to the community is as satisfactory as it can be.
Lord Dholakia (LD)
My Lords, will my noble friend agree with me that the provision in my Private Member’s Bill, which is now incorporated in the LASPO Act, has benefited a large number of young people and a large number of offenders leaving prison? Will he therefore now look at the international dimension, in particular at what is going on in Sweden, and at how such provisions can help to reduce the prison population in this country?
Lord Faulks
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for acknowledging that we have made progress. We hope to continue to make progress. Of course, he is quite right: we must learn from experience elsewhere, in Sweden or wherever else there is good practice.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, will the Minister explain how the crucial process of rehabilitation is assisted by the present state of our prisons, suffering as they do from overcrowding, staff shortages and a rising tide of self-harm and suicide?
Lord Faulks
The noble Lord makes a number of allegations about the unsatisfactory nature of our prisons. There are different reports for different prisons. I cannot possibly deal with all prisons at the Dispatch Box. I do not share his gloomy view of the state of our prisons, having visited a number of them. The work done in our prisons is of a very high standard and we have a dedicated body of prison officers who take great satisfaction in their work. I do not accept his description.
Lord Laming (CB)
My Lords, will the Minister agree that the size of the prison population has reached an almost all-time record and that that is a cause for concern, particularly given the difficulties there are now for courts in finding alternatives to prison for relatively minor offenders and those who have serious problems, such as drug or alcohol abuse? Would it not be worth while thinking again about the status of the probation service in this country?
Lord Faulks
The number of offenders who are in prison depends, of course, on what judges decide is appropriate and on the number of offences committed. I accept that the prison population is high at the moment; I do not accept that there is overcrowding within conventional definitions. However, I entirely accept what the noble Lord—who has great experience in this field—says: we should be looking, in so far as possible, for alternatives to prison, particularly to combat difficulties with drugs, alcohol or other matters that predispose people towards offending.
Baroness Browning (Con)
More broadly, what are the Government doing to encourage employers to employ ex-offenders, even if it is not the original occupation that they held before they entered prison?
Lord Faulks
My Lords, we have an employers’ forum for reducing reoffending, which is there to recruit employers who are willing to take on offenders. This is a success story; 200 offenders have been employed in the last 12 months. The story that we receive from employers is that, on the whole, ex-offenders are extremely good employees. They are grateful for the job and have a very high retention rate in employment.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)
My Lords, will the Minister place on record that he and the Government are satisfied with the health services provided for people in custody? Will he give the figures for prison officers and those working with prisoners in care and education? Have the numbers gone up, or have they gone down at the same time as the number of prisoners has gone up?
Lord Faulks
As the noble Baroness will know, responsibility for health in prisons is for NHS England. I am afraid that I cannot give the figures she seeks at the Dispatch Box but will write to her with them.
Railways: East Coast Main Line
(10 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer to an Urgent Question given earlier today by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport on the franchise competition for the east coast main line. The Statement is as follows:
“Mr Speaker, first, I welcome the honourable gentleman to his post.
This morning I announced the intention to award the intercity east coast franchise to Stagecoach Virgin, exactly on the schedule we promised two years ago. It is great for passengers. It will bring more trains, faster trains, new trains, better services and better-value fares. It is good for towns and cities up and down the east coast. It is good for our economy and jobs. It is proof that the right route forward for our railways is the private sector and the public sector working together. This deal will make the route of the Flying Scotsman a world-beater once again.
Now, I have heard different advice from the Opposition, led of course by the unions. They told us to leave this route in the hands of its emergency public sector operator. They do not understand that this would deny the east coast line new ideas and investment. They do not understand that it was set up as a short-term measure by the last Labour Transport Secretary, which is why at the time the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said:
“I do not believe that it would be in the public interest for us to have a nationalised train operating company indefinitely”,—[Official Report, 1/7/09; col. 232.]
and the Minister of State, the Member for Tooting, said,
“one reason we are able to invest record sums in our railway service is the revenues that the franchises bring in and the premiums that they pay”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/7/09; col. 430.]
Right then—wrong now.
It is this Government who are powering ahead with a better plan for our railways. First, this new franchise will be good for people who use the line. This deal will strengthen the vital links from London to Scotland all the way along the route as far as Aberdeen and Inverness. Passengers will benefit from regular, faster, more frequent services to places like Falkirk, Stirling and Edinburgh. Journeys between London and Edinburgh will be regularly down to just four hours by May 2020. Leeds will see regular journey times down to just two hours. Places like Leeds, Bradford, Shipley and Harrogate will see more direct services each day. Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Huddersfield and Dewsbury will all get new direct east coast services, the first from Huddersfield to London since the 1960s. Lincoln, which gets one train a day to London under the current operator, will get one every two hours with the new one. And we have protected service levels to every current main line station.
All these destinations will be served by the new intercity express trains by May 2020. They will be built in the heart of the north-east at the new plant in Newton Aycliffe. So I ask the honourable Member sitting opposite, why does he want to deny the north all these benefits? The new operator will provide 50% more capacity across the east coast network and a 40% increase in morning peak seats to and from Kings Cross, and refurbish the existing fleet. It will cut some of the most expensive fares by 10% from May next year.
But this franchise is not just good for passengers. It is also good for staff. It offers investment in skills, a graduate programme, new apprenticeships and a national academy for rail professional education based in London, York and Derby. This will also be good for taxpayers. The franchise will run for eight years with an option to extend for a further year. In that time, it will return £3.3 billion in premium payments to the taxpayer. These figures are robust; they have been subject to rigorous scrutiny, including by independent auditors. So this deal will bring more services, more passengers and a growing return.
That is why, Mr Speaker, the Government’s franchising programme is creating the railway that this country needs. Passengers in Essex, London and the south-east are already benefiting from the improved services that the partnership of public and private sectors on our railway can provide. This award is further proof that private competition is good for passengers, staff, communities and taxpayers. The quality of the new operator’s plan will benefit the whole country”.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, although I think that she should be ashamed to do so. It is an appalling Statement. It is a political act to present this Statement five months before a general election. There is no urgency for it, because everyone knows that the east coast main line is doing well under the existing publicly operated system. The Government know that my party is totally opposed to the strategy that they are presenting, and we will legislate to permit a public transport operator to challenge the private sector on a level playing field.
The Minister’s promises were of course the promises that applied to the private sector before it collapsed five years ago and required the state company to move in. Our own publicly operated company has an excellent record for service to passengers and for direct returns to the Treasury. It now finds itself, as a result of this Statement, potentially the only state-owned rail company in the world that has been banned from challenging the running of its own services.
It is not too late for the Government to accept a sense of fair play with the electorate, the travelling public and the public company by delaying action on the Statement until after the general election. If the Government refuse, so much for their appeal for long-term commitments on both sides of the House to the development of the railways. This is a shoddy act, a shoddy Statement, and we reject it.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, the Secretary of State set out his schedule for franchising for the east coast in March 2013. It is exactly on schedule. There is nothing artificial about the timing; it is entirely appropriate. On the demand for a public operator, we have always said that we do not have an ideological barrier, but why would you use one when we have excellent private trained operators? This is an absolutely excellent franchise. The argument is often made that the DOR returned £1 billion in revenue. Noble Lords will note that that was over five years, although there are differences in the timetable. We will be getting £3.3 billion from this eight-year franchise.
Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement. I have to say that it is no surprise—I would have thought to anyone—that the winner of the franchise is one of the three applicants. That seems quite a sensible way for things to go. If there are three applicants, the winner will be one of them.
I have a concern about monopoly. The winner of the franchise is the firm that operates on the west coast. There can be opportunity with monopoly. If we are to have a monopoly, can we have some benefits from it? I am delighted that the tentacles of the east coast will go to Dewsbury and Huddersfield, and that there will be more trains to Bradford and more in the West Riding. Those of us in the Pennines are in a position from which we can look east and west. Will there be opportunity under this franchise, particularly on fares and opportunities to choose routes? Bearing in mind that the operator is to be the same, will there also be fair play on fares for people in the middle of the country?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, this is certainly not a monopoly situation. Quite a number of companies bid on these franchises across the UK. They all start from a level playing field and we consider them completely impartially. With regard to fares, I note that the new franchise operator proposes a 10% reduction of standard anytime fares on longer distances in May 2015.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, as the Minister who created the East Coast company, I ask the Minister to join me in congratulating Karen Boswell and her fantastic staff at East Coast on providing a first-class public service since National Express left the public without any service on the east coast line five years ago. Can the Minister also confirm that, at 91%, East Coast has a record customer satisfaction rating for that franchise since its creation, and that the East Coast is also the most popular franchise long-distance operator in the country at present? Would she regard it as a failure if the new private operator did not equal or exceed those performance ratings in a year’s time?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I am absolutely delighted to join in the accolades for the staff at the door—they have done an outstanding job and we have always applauded them for it. As they transfer to the new company, I am sure that they will continue to do an outstanding job. They will be offered new training opportunities and new opportunities to develop professionally, which will be extremely exciting. Therefore I am delighted to congratulate them. I am also delighted that the new franchise offers the kind of investment that we want to see, improving service in so many ways, improving the existing rolling stock and bringing on new rolling stock, additional seats and new services—all those kinds of things. We absolutely need improvements in ticketing as well, which is important because of the many people who use the east coast line.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I echo my noble friend’s thanks to the current operators. However, the people of Lincoln will be delighted to have a reasonable service. I will take this opportunity to invite all Members of this House to visit Lincoln during 2015 when we celebrate the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta, and when Britain’s least-known great historic city will be available for a day trip from London.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I was very sure that my noble friend Lord Cormack would be delighted with this announcement.
Lord Kinnock (Lab)
Since the Minister puts emphasis on excellence of service, absolutely rightly, and since there has been acknowledgement of the great success of the publicly owned service on the east coast, which rose from the ashes of the failure in the private sector, can she tell us why that excellent service and company was not allowed to bid on the fair and equal basis of all other bidders for this franchise? Is it not conceivable that against the background of that success, it, too, could have made the commitment to investment and to the enlargement and improvement of services that is now on offer from the company that has been successful? What ideological barrier—because it could not have been a practical one—could have prevented it making a bid?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, there are enormous practical barriers relating to the basis on which funding is provided to the public service operator differing from that available to the private operators in the bid. It is crucial to ensure that we get the best ideas, innovation and investment in the service for the people who are going to use the east coast and that is exactly what this franchise delivers.
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s announcement. It is the right decision. It delivers more services, greater investment, more trains and new routes. In addition, the trains for destinations on the east coast main line will be built in the north-east at Newton Aycliffe. The staff of East Coast do a magnificent job. Can the Minister confirm that they will all be guaranteed their jobs on current terms and conditions of service?
Baroness Kramer
The way in which this franchise has been set up is a sale of shares. All staff will remain on their existing contracts. They will continue effectively to be employed by the same employer. Whatever those terms are will continue. It is important to notice the ambitions in this franchise to improve training and opportunities for staff. Virgin has been clear that, with new services, it is going to need to train and hire new drivers and new on-board staff. There are no plans to close ticketing, although much friendlier services will be opened up.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, I return to the question from my noble friend Lord Adonis about performance. What will be done to examine the performance of the new franchisee against that of the previous holder over the coming 12 months and the next five years?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, we hold all our companies to a very high standard of performance. They continue to be rigorously observed. Virgin will take on great challenges, bringing on new services and rolling stock. These will offer a great deal to passengers and we will expect a high performance from them. The noble Lord will be aware that, under the new franchising regime, the quality of output is a very important part of deciding where to award the franchise. It is no longer just on the cheapest.
Business of the House
(10 years ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That Standing Order 40 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Thursday 4 December to enable the Motion standing in the name of Viscount Younger of Leckie to be taken before that in the name of Lord Moynihan.
Business of the House
(10 years ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That the debates on the Motions in the names of Lord Harries of Pentregarth and the Earl of Clancarty set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.
Insurance Bill [HL]
The Chairman of Committees
That Lord Tomlinson be appointed a member of the Special Public Bill Committee.
European Union Committee
The Chairman of Committees
That Baroness Henig be appointed a member of the Select Committee in place of Baroness Corston, resigned.
Religion and Belief: British Public Life
Lord Harries of Pentregarth
That this House takes note of the role of religion and belief in British public life.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)
My Lords, since World War II there have been huge social changes in our country, not least as they impact on the presence and role of religion in society. In the 2011 census there was a voluntary question about religion. This revealed the presence of 33.2 million Christians—59% of the country, down from 72% in 2001. At the same time, the Muslim presence was revealed as 2.7 million—4.8% of the population, up from 3% in 2001. Other religions also showed an increase. Hindus were up to 1.5% of the population and Sikhs up to 0.8%—the same figure as for a combination of all other religions, except for Judaism, which remained static on 0.5%
No less significant was the number of people who said that they had no religion—14.1 million or 25.1% of the population, up from 14.8% in 2001, making it the second largest category after Christianity. To this might be added the large number of people who prefer to define themselves as spiritual, rather than religious.
In addition to this, it is important to note post-World War II immigration, which brought people from the Caribbean and, later, from west Africa, resulting in thousands of lively black-led churches and a major black presence, for example, in the Anglican diocese of London. Between 2005 and 2012, 700 new Pentecostal churches were started, of which 400 were black majority led. In a similar way, immigration from eastern Europe has significantly boosted Roman Catholic and Orthodox congregations.
Therefore, the religious landscape is variegated and in many respects very lively. It is certainly very different from what it was in 1945. If we had to contrast clergymen in two brilliant TV series in which the clergy star to illustrate this difference, they would be the Reverend Sidney Chambers, Vicar of Grantchester, in the 1950s, and the Reverend Adam Smallbone as “Rev” in an inner-city London parish.
However, it is not just the presence of non-Christian religions and those who profess no religion that has made the difference. It is that religion is visible and agitative in a way that it was not before. It has a voice, or rather a variety of voices that want to be heard in the public sphere. They are not content to have religion confined to the inward and personal dimension. So it is, for example, that issues concerning the wearing of the cross and employment practices have found their way to the European Court of Human Rights, and there have been major issues concerning religion in schools, as we know.
In short, whether one likes it or not, religion is now a major player on the public stage in a way that could not have been envisaged perhaps even 30 years ago. There are of course a number of reasons for this in addition to the varied religious landscape. One is globalisation, which has taken people from societies in which they may have had a settled social identity to another where they have been in a minority and have developed a religious identity. This has had the effect of making religion a badge of identity at a time when the politics of identity have come very much to the fore. For all these reasons, it is therefore an area that Governments have to think about seriously, coherently and consistently across a whole range of policy areas.
It is also the reason that the Woolf Institute in Cambridge convened the Commission on Religion and Belief in British Public Life, of which I am a member, chaired by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. The commission has existed for a year, is now in the process of consulting widely and is intending to present a report to the new Government next year. In our consultation booklet we set out five major areas where we are looking for views—the law, education, dialogue and engagement, the media and social action. I am therefore delighted to have been able to obtain this debate and I very much look forward to hearing what your Lordships will say under any of those headings or any other.
A number of your Lordships who wished to speak in the debate today were, sadly, engaged elsewhere, but I quote one of them, the former Chief Rabbi, the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, who wrote to me to send his apologies. He said:
“Please, though, accept my deep commitment to the vital role of religion and belief in public life. It remains the most powerful shaper of civil society, a much needed source of altruism in a culture that seems otherwise to celebrate the self, and an unrivalled heritage of wisdom on the great questions of ethics and society that we will never cease asking as we strive to be true to our faith and a blessing to others regardless of their faith”.
That said, I should stress that the phrase “religion and belief”, which is now the correct designation for policy in this area, has belief in it as well as religion, and that includes those who take a robustly secular view of life.
I wish to begin by simply setting out some basic principles on the basis of which I believe any Government should approach the formulation of public policy in this area. First and foremost, there should be equal respect and concern for all people, whatever their faith or belief, which includes respect and concern for the religious communities to which they belong. We are not isolated individuals but persons in a community, and those communities, which Edmund Burke called the “little platoons”, are integral to the make-up of our society. This equal respect and concern, which is asked of us all in our dealings with one another, is a particular obligation on the state in a society which is now as diverse as ours. This equality is not just tolerance; it means accepting and celebrating people in their difference. It is equality understood in an inclusive sense.
This equality is one of the marks of a secular society, but we need to be very careful about the use of that word secular. The former Archbishop of Canterbury, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Williams of Oystermouth, draws a helpful distinction between programmatic and procedural secularism. The latter is what we must all accept, for it refers to a set of procedures, arrangements and rules of discourse that enable rational debate to take place and decisions to be made with everyone participating on an equal basis. Programmatic secularism, however, has been perceived as an attempt to drive the religious voices out of the public square altogether, and this must be resisted, for the public square is quite rightly a crowded place where all voices need to be heard, including religious ones. As often as not, those religious voices will be translated into the shared assumptions of public reasoning, but this should not be mandatory.
Secondly, in the sphere of religion it is desirable that fellow citizens should try both to understand and to make themselves intelligible to their fellow citizens. This is a particular duty on public officials and educational establishments in a multifaith society: they must foster that and enable it to happen. This may have particular implications for policies in areas such as the training of imams from abroad, and it certainly has huge implications for education in our society, where there is such widespread religious illiteracy, together with many concerns about what is being taught, and—no less—how it is being taught.
Thirdly, public authorities should beware of privileging only certain forms of authority or religious representation. There are often groups, such as women, who need to be heard and who lack access to power. Public authorities should not replicate and reinforce oppressive practices that might be present in a particular faith community.
Fourthly, in a society in which we all have multiple identities, our identity as UK citizens imposes a duty to the state. While both Christians and Muslims, for example, will claim a higher loyalty, according to the tenets of their religion, this must not be interpreted as loyalty to a foreign power structure, as it was, for example, by some Roman Catholics in the 16th century.
Fifthly, in devising public policy we need to take into account where we are as a result of our history and culture. There is no neutral realm, and what we have now is a quite specific achievement that has been worked out over many centuries. It is a fantasy to think that there is some neutral secular blueprint existing somewhere else, which can simply be plonked down. Clearly, one feature of where we are now is the existence of an established church, and here of course I have to declare an interest as someone who has had the privilege and fulfilment of being a bishop in that church, serving society for my lifetime.
Many years ago, Professor Owen Chadwick pointed out that the relationship of church and state was a cord with a number of different threads. In recent years, some of those threads have been cut. To take just two examples, the church now has the freedom to order its own forms of worship and, in practice, to nominate those it wants as bishops. The point is that the relationship of the Church of England to the state has changed, is changing and could change further. It could change further in an inclusive direction that reflects our diverse society.
One feature of the Church of England that I would want to affirm is the way in which, in recent decades, it has taken the lead not only in building up good relationships with other faith communities but in exercising its historic position in a hospitable way. In the autumn of 2013, I had to preach at the service marking the beginning of the legal year for the western division in Bristol Cathedral. A similar service for judges, lawyers, magistrates and civic authorities takes place in every part of the country at that time of the year. In Bristol that year, both the high sheriff and the mayor were Muslims, the woman high sheriff being very devout. She asked that a passage from the Koran be read, including the key opening passage. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol acceded to her request, and it was arranged that the Koran be read in the cathedral when everyone had been seated and welcomed but before the actual Christian service began. It was a brilliant creative act of accommodation that made the Muslim high sheriff feel, as she said, warmly embraced but did not alienate the core congregation, or indeed Muslims or Christians, by a blurring of boundaries.
That principle of hospitality can and should be reflected in many public ceremonies, including the next coronation service. In a speech on 15 February 2012, Her Majesty the Queen said about the Church of England:
“Its role is not to defend Anglicanism to the exclusion of other religions. Instead, the Church has a duty to protect the free practice of all faiths in this country. It certainly provides an identity and spiritual dimension for its own many adherents. But also, gently and assuredly, the Church of England has created an environment for other faith communities and indeed people of no faith to live freely”.
That puts so well what the Church of England has tried to do in recent years and what I know it will continue to do in an increasingly inclusive way, while not assuming that it should always take the lead.
Lastly, the European Convention on Human Rights is now rightly a benchmark for our society. As we know from recent legal cases, there are occasions when some people feel that this clashes with a fundamental religious belief or right. My own view is that human rights should prevail in areas of dispute but that the law should be formulated and enforced with what the Equality and Human Rights Commission once termed “reasonable accommodation”. That seems to be in the spirit of the culture of the United Kingdom as, for example, compared with France. In other words, we accept so far as possible expressions of religious difference. There are certain fundamentals, of course, on which there can be no compromise so that any religiously based view in conflict with them must be overridden by that human right. However, on some issues there ought to be some scope for latitude.
As I said, religion is now a major player on the public stage that our parents would have had difficulty in imagining, and religion impinges on a number of key areas in our society, not least the law and education. For that reason, it is vital that any Government think clearly and consistently about their approach. What I have tried to do is to set out a few general principles that I believe should guide policy-making. I look forward to hearing what noble Lords have to say and in due course to the response of the Government. I beg to move.
Lord Fowler (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble and right reverend Lord on his speech. I agree with him about the importance of religion in our public life and I agree that religions have a variety of voices in the public and political debate and make an enormous contribution. I have never believed, as was once suggested, that, for example, the Bishops should be excluded from the most important political debates that we have in this country. But I suggest that there is a quid pro quo: politicians like me should not be excluded from giving their advice to the churches, particularly if it has the effect of making those churches more accessible to more people. As we approach World AIDS Day on Monday, I am thinking particularly of the position of gay people, which appears to present all kinds of problems and challenges to the churches.
The public have flooded to see the film about the life and death of Alan Turing, and rightly so. It is a powerful denunciation of the intolerance and bigotry that held sway 60 years ago when men were imprisoned for no more than being different. Doubtless, some come away with the comforting assumption that that was then and everything has changed, and that discrimination and prejudice have been banished—if only that were the case. The fact is that in almost 80 countries of the world, homosexuality remains a criminal offence. In cities from Moscow to Kampala, the criminal law applies. The only difference between the countries is the extent to which the law is enforced—imprisonment or even execution at one end of the scale and persecution and police corruption at the other. Let us be clear: even when the law is not enforced or when there is not a law at all, there are powerful social and community forces at play. Young gay men, for example, are forced to leave their homes because of the ostracism that their families would otherwise suffer.
What of Britain? Things in Britain have changed. Men are not prosecuted or imprisoned in the way that they once were. But if you ask any gay man whether prejudice still exists he will tell you that it does, in the workplace, in sport and in schools. There is absolutely no reason to be complacent. If there is one thing that we can do in this country to make amends for the Turing legacy, it is to take a lead and show an example in fighting discrimination and prejudice, not only in this country but around the world.
Not all the nations which discriminate will take note of our example, let alone change, but some might. Even more might—here I come to my point on religion—if we could persuade the churches to take a more courageous stand, frankly, than they do at the moment. In Britain, the best, I think, that can be said about the position is that churches are equivocal, cautious and not prepared, really, to go out in front. Overseas, the position is much clearer, but much more dire, as it happens, because the churches, the Anglican Church, and the Catholic Church—in Uganda, for example—actually support the repression there. The same is true, in Russia, of the Orthodox Church.
I shall relate this, very briefly, to World AIDS Day. The fact is that, at the moment, as should be remembered in the context of the Ebola crisis, 35 million people have died from AIDS. The annual death toll is 1.5 million and more than 35 million men, women and children live with HIV. The worst part of that statistic is that half those who are living with HIV do not know, because they have not been diagnosed. A major reason for that is that the barrier to testing is the discrimination and prejudice that take place around the world, not least in this country, I fear, where a quarter of those living with HIV do not know and have not been tested.
These are very important points which the churches in the world and in this country could do much to help and it would be infinitely to the advantage of the public here and overseas if the churches would now take a lead, proclaim the equality of all people and take that into every aspect of their own policies and conduct. I congratulate the noble and right reverend Lord on everything that he has said.
Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for introducing this debate with such care and wisdom, typical of his work in this House, in the media and as a member of the clergy. I am delighted that the commission he mentioned has belief as part of its considerations.
I begin, as my pivot for the debate, with a quotation from an essay by EM Forster, What I Believe, written in 1938.
“What is good in people—and consequently in the world—is their insistence on creation, their belief in friendship and loyalty for their own sakes”.
As I say, that is my starting point. I do not have a religion, but I have beliefs. I am a humanist and, as such, I believe that we, as humans, are held together by mutual human support, kindness, tolerance and creativity.
The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, mentioned respect and concern. I fully agree. All these things are important in public life. The debate is set in the context of public life and I find that interesting. I suggest that behaviour in private life is a profound indicator of behaviour in public life. I would not trust someone who behaves badly in private life to behave well in public life. There may be exceptions. Institutions may express uplifting mission statements or mottos, but institutions are made up of people who think and feel. I guess that while institutions may attract loyalty, that loyalty is secondary to loyalty to family and friends.
The great poet, Dante, in his Inferno, condemned Brutus to the ninth circle of hell, not because of disloyalty to the state but to his friend, Julius Caesar. My point is that the quality of trust and love between human beings indicates what kind of institution, society or state we can expect.
I believe that what holds a society together is human qualities and acts of kindness and respect that contribute to a moral code not necessarily based on religion. Religion has sadly too often divided individuals and societies, with tragic consequences and a mistaken confusion of education and indoctrination. I think the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, who is sitting opposite me, would be on the same side in maintaining that education should develop personal and social skills, good citizens and thinking skills based on dialogue and discussion rather than on one-dimensional doctrine. It should include consideration of all faiths, religions and beliefs. Regrettably, the Government do not seem to think so, and I wonder why.
I believe that, as well as those qualities, we are inspired by creativity—art, theatre, music and literature—which is sometimes founded on religious faith and sometimes is not. They too have a role in private and public life.
We live in turbulent times. Institutions are being questioned: politics, religion, financial structures and so on. A glance at any day’s newspaper will show depressing headlines about child abuse, racism, fraud, relationship breakdown or violence, which are often described in lurid terms by the media. So what are we to do? Where do we turn for calm and stability? EM Forster said:
“One must be fond of people and trust them if one is not to make a mess of life”.
People sometimes let us down, which is all the more reason for us to behave with loyalty, sensitivity and dignity. For me, that is the core of public and private behaviour. I respect that, for some, religion will provide that compass.
In September, the British Humanist Association launched the “Thought for the Commute” poster campaign across London as part of an attempt to get humanist views on Radio 4’s “Thought for the Day”. There were four posters which used quotations from George Eliot, Virginia Woolf, Bertrand Russell and AC Grayling, and the campaign attracted a great of attention. The quotation from George Eliot was:
“Wear a smile and make friends; wear a scowl and make wrinkles. What do we live for if not to make the world less difficult for each other?”.
It seems to me that “What is it all for?” applies to public and private life and is what the noble and right reverend Lord is asking us to explore today.
Lord Alderdice (LD)
My Lords, I, too, welcome the initiative of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, in bringing this debate to the House. I shall pull back from the question of the role of the churches and look more broadly at the question of religion and belief because some mistakes have been made in our understanding of these matters.
At the time of the Enlightenment and afterwards, many liberal intellectuals thought that a few generations of education would mean that religion would effectively disappear. They also thought that we would all begin to get on together and aggression and violence would be managed and controlled by education. It is quite clear that although people of that disposition thought they were informing themselves through rational thought, it was much more about romantic wish fulfilment because the truth is that religion has not gone away and nor has violence and aggression. Indeed, even in countries where religion was effectively banned for a period, once that ban disappeared, we saw an enormous growth. In Russia, the development of the Orthodox Church is not only a question of numbers; it is massively affecting Mr Putin’s politics. The Financial Times recently reported that the factory that has produced more Bibles than any other in the history of the world is not in the United States of America as you might have guessed, or even—less likely—in Europe, but in China, a country where religion was not available to many people for a long time.
It therefore seems clear that religion is an essential component of the human condition and a group phenomenon. It is not something that is simply a matter of what individuals believe. A community may have a religious identity, while quite a large number of individuals may not have a particular religious proclivity, because it is part of the identity of the community. Once that identity starts getting shaken up in various ways, it can become very unpleasant indeed.
It seems also that this business of religion is not just a question of belief and here I point up and quibble with the wording of the Motion. Religion is, of course, about belief and faith but it is also about the way people behave—about rituals and structures. All these things grow and develop. Many social scientists now talk about the evolution of religion as part of the evolution of society. We know that these matters do develop: we move from simple, concrete ways of thinking about these things to more metaphorical ones. We do this in our ordinary lives as well. We move from rather simple, black and white thinking as children to more metaphorical thinking when we are older. If you do not appreciate that, you get into terrible trouble. For example, if I ask a nice young lady out for dinner I do not do so because I think she looks thin, underfed and famished: I want to spend time in her company. The food is, of course, still real and an important part of it but there is a metaphorical component as well. When individuals regress through illness they sometimes go back to more simplistic ways of thinking and cannot see the metaphorical. This happens in society as well so that as people developed a different way of thinking about religion—a broader, more thoughtful, more tolerant, more metaphorical one—it became possible to see different religious approaches as not being entirely antagonistic.
We have a problem here which impinges on society. When an individual or society comes under existential threat—when it believes that its group identity or future is under threat—it regresses to simplistic, black and white, dangerous, threatening ways of functioning in which the complexity of a society, with all its different components, disappears. This is true for the individual and for society. Amartya Sen talked about reducing back to a singularity. This is a very serious problem for a multicultural and multi-identity society such as ours. One of the difficulties about a Government who see all issues of religion merely as matters of private faith and belief, and who famously said they did not “do God”, is that they do not tend to give enough attention to the importance and complexity of these things, which are becoming more important to ordinary people, to thoughtful people and to societies as a whole.
We are finding an appearance of increasing fundamentalism, which is becoming radicalised into dangerous action as well. I welcome this debate, because I hope it also represents an increasing focus by the Government on the need to understand the complexities of religion, both in its more advanced forms and those of regression and dangerous fundamentalism.
Baroness Warnock (CB)
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble and right reverend friend for introducing this debate and for the way he did so. I share some of the doubts about the use of “belief” in the wording. Humanism is not a kind of religion, though it may be a kind of belief. The terms of reference of the consultation are quite difficult to comprehend, but I shall not go on about that. However, the debate is timely because we are absolutely surrounded by the most appalling images of the horrors of fundamentalist religion. It is very useful to stand back and see the real benefits, to society and this country, of religion that is not of this kind. I will confine myself to one religion—Christianity—and to a relatively small aspect of that, namely the Church of England. We are extremely fortunate in this country to have the Church of England as our established church. The history of the Church of England has always, necessarily, involved finding a middle way. That makes it an extremely unlikely hotbed for extremism of any kind, which is one great advantage that we have.
I want to concentrate on the fact that it is the established church. As other noble Lords have said, religion—whether you call it religion or spirituality—revives when it is depressed. It comes back again, as we have certainly seen in Russia. One of the most depressing things I remember about visiting Russia and Moscow for the first time in the 1970s was the existence of wonderful churches that were full of icons and atmosphere but were not used for their proper purpose. I was taken around some of them by a deeply religious woman who spent hours in prayer in every church, rather to the discomfort of my son and me. The fact that these wonderful churches were being misused was incredibly depressing.
There are two ways in which I deeply value the established church. First, the Church of England is, as I have said, a tolerant church. It does not probe too deeply into whether we are thinking literally or metaphorically. Secondly, it is woven into our culture, not just by aesthetic objects but by the law. We are part of a community that is headed by the head of the Church of England. That is a valuable and not likely to be forgotten aspect of our society.
One reason for that is that religion is not just a matter of belief; it is a matter of ceremony and ritual. The Church of England provides the means for the whole of this country to make use of the ceremonies and rituals which it so tremendously provides at times of grief, thanksgiving and remembrance, as well as at the passing of the seasons which are also celebrated. Those are all ways in which our country can come together as one. Of course, I am rather echoing the words of the Prime Minister, although I rather deplore his use of the word “evangelical”. I believe that this way of coming together to celebrate, or to mark grief and thanksgiving, is something that we would not have if we did not have an established church.
Part of the same thought is that the Church of England maintains—and has a duty to maintain—the most marvellous buildings, cathedrals, abbeys and parish churches all over the country, and they are used for their proper purpose. That may be less used now, but I do not think that that goes for cathedrals. Without the Church of England we would not have that continuing heritage, which includes within it the most incomparable heritage of choral church music.
The Lord Bishop of Birmingham
My Lords, I am grateful to my colleague, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for shaping this debate and for the remarks just offered by the noble Baroness. It may be a great surprise to many of our fellow citizens that public religious figures should be asked to play a part at all in 21st century society. However, the least surprised in the city of Birmingham are my interfaith colleagues. They expect the leaders and members at a local parish level and at a national level in what they regard as the indigenous national religion to play a full part in society and to articulate the needs, values and beliefs of those who have faith on things that are a matter of importance to the whole of society, whether they are faithful or not.
We have already referred to the great civic occasions and the local ones that are framed by public religious bodies, mainly the church. We have also noticed that members of religious organisations or bodies are outspoken in their views and can articulate particular things from an independent point of view. In public, it is a surprise these days that public figures such as bishops are still asked to say grace at institutional dinners. However, a certain amount of education is needed when asked for a grace that is secular, in the wrong use of the word. When asked about this grace, my young Muslim friend said, “Well, who are you going to be speaking to, Bishop, when you are saying it?”. These are matters of fact and I want in my remaining remarks to illustrate the liveliness and the practice of lived religion in ordinary communities across the country.
Beneath the surface of these public expressions of acts of worship in times of need and moments of outspokenness—by people like the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, who has already been mentioned, or engagement in public debate with, for example, the mining industry, where the ethos of that industry has been engaging with people of religion for its future—lies the obvious observation that human beings are seen to have a spiritual, other dimension to their lives, other than just the physical and practically measureable. David Bentley Hart, in his The Experience of God, has a very good articulation that, adding to our natural way of life, there are other dimensions: being, by which he refers to God; bliss, by which he refers to our emotions and experience; and, of course, consciousness, that distinctive fact of human awareness and being. Perhaps that is why 700 lay Anglicans—only one small part of the religious life of Birmingham—chose to come together for a whole day to speak about how to tell their story of faith to one another and to others in their communities.
People of faith also have a very strong motivation simply to serve humanity and to care for the wonderful planet in which we are placed. Of course that is true of all walks of professional and public life, but it is particularly of interest when people put their faith into practice in the local communities, in their own spheres of influence. As ordinary people rise to the challenge of our current economic and social conditions, we see that, in our social inclusion process in Birmingham, which happens to be led by the Bishop—by myself—as a public independent figure, all sorts of things flowed out as a response to human need in the local communities. For example, a whole range of places of welcome were set up, as required by the local authority. Night shelters during this winter season sprang up locally because volunteers, particularly led by people of all faiths, wanted to serve in that way. Well-known street pastors serve across the city at night. Food banks are familiar to your Lordships, and it is notable that my noble and right reverend friend the Bishop of Truro was asked to chair that commission. Money advice is being offered in all sorts of communities, particularly from places of religion.
Your Lordships are well aware that there has been a particular focus on Islam in Birmingham in the last 12 months. Now statutory bodies—as well as the Trojan horse review group, on which I serve with Muslims—are making attempts to identify and act in proper ways to respond. It is in fact the local people of faith who are gathering informally—gathering in particular ways—to develop a way of being that is going to make the most fundamental difference in changing our society.
Lord Parekh (Lab)
My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for securing this debate and introducing it so well. I want to concentrate on two major points.
When we talk about religion, there is a danger of homogenising it, assuming that religion more or less takes the same form in all societies or that all religions are basically the same. In the United Kingdom, there are three crucial facts which we cannot afford to ignore. First, there is diversity between religions. That is not just plurality of religions—more religions than one—but diversity. They are differently structured. Some are community-based; some are individual-based. Some stress conduct; some are not terribly interested in conduct but stress belief. Some are globally connected; some are largely nationally confined. That is the first thing.
Secondly, there is diversity within religions. There is no religion that does not contain sects or diversity of interpretation. I do not have time to elaborate on this point, but it is also striking that for some, religion is a matter of faith, a taken-for-granted fact of life. For the younger generation, which has grown up in it, especially immigrants, it is a matter of identity: something that you wear as a badge of who you are and announce to the world, but you select bits and pieces of your religion. For yet others, religion is an ideology. In any religious community, you will have groups which appropriate their religion very differently.
There is also a third kind of diversity: different approaches to religion. Some people turn to religion because they are looking for an explanation of the nature of human existence and the place of human beings in the universe. For them, religion is primarily theology. For others, religion is primarily a matter of principles of conduct: how should one behave; what are the ideals of excellence which one should try to emulate? For them, religion is a matter of ethics. There are yet others for whom religion is neither a matter of metaphysics nor theology, nor of ethics, but largely a question of belonging: which is the tradition and community to which I belong? No beliefs or metaphysics are involved, simply a question of being at home within a particular community.
Those are the different kinds of diversity that obtain within our society. What follows? Two things follow. First, we should not make the mistake of thinking that all religions must be treated in the same way. If we do, given their differences, sameness can mean inequality. Secondly, we should not talk about religion in the abstract. Some religions in some modes can be terribly beastly. Some religions in some modes can be profoundly elevating. We need to be careful before we talk about the place of religion in public life or the fact that religions are doing valuable work.
It is also worth bearing in mind, as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, pointed out, that when we talk about the great work that religions do, we always think of charitable activities, which look after the victims of our society. I have long waited to hear the radical voice of religion. If one considers Christianity, there is the driving of the money-changers from the temple. You find the same sort of thing in Judaism and Buddhism. The radical religious voice which tries to transform the economy and the social structure is rarely heard.
It is striking how, in a liberal democratic society such as ours, religion can easily be co-opted into an ameliorative function, looking after the victims of society but not challenging society itself. We need to be very careful when we talk about faith-based action. We tolerate faith-based action as long as it looks after the victims of society, but if it takes the form of radical challenge, such as occupying Wall Street, or whatever, we begin to think very differently.
My next point, which I shall make quickly, has to do with the way in which religion has to come to terms with certain fundamental principles of human morality. Religious beliefs should be respected, but what if they violate racial equality? What if a belief says that blacks should not be treated equally? We will say no, we will not respect that belief. What about gender equality? We will say no, it must be respected, no matter what your beliefs. It is striking that when it comes to sexual orientation, we seem to vacillate. Should gay couples be allowed to marry in churches? Should they be allowed to adopt? We say yes, but, at the same time, no.
That is where a crucial dilemma faces any liberal democratic society. We can insist on equality and say that, just as we want racial equality and gender equality respected, we want sexual orientation equality to be respected, but at the same time, we recognise that it has a different history and comes from a different tradition, and we try to accommodate it. That is precisely the point. The whole idea of accommodation is patronising. It is also administrative. It presupposes that there is one way of doing the right thing, but seeing that some chaps in our society complain, we try to accommodate them. I see that as a fundamental conflict of values. The question is how do we reconcile—not accommodate—those parties and create a society in which people holding basically different beliefs nevertheless feel respected?
Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick (CB)
I am very grateful to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for introducing this vital debate. This has been a difficult week, in which we had the report on the activities of Michael Adebowale and Michael Adebolajo, and the radicalism, as the Home Secretary referred to it, of their lives, which brought about the tragic and evil death of Lee Rigby.
In the few minutes available to me, I want to do two things. First, I want to recapture the word radical—and radicalism—from being seen as negative. It enters the lexicon of common understanding as something we despise. As a follower of Jesus, I am convinced that the lifestyle he promoted and spoke of was radical. People criticised him for being associated with those who society despised. He made it clear that if you want to find life you must choose to give it away. He made it clear that the obsession of our day, which is the relentless pursuit of materialism, ought to be focused on the pursuit of the kingdom of God. These are radical truths, and if radicalism is to be seen as a negative and religion is to become known—and, if I dare say so, particularly Church of England Christianity, of which I am very grateful to be at times a member—for its tolerance and its mediocrity, then we have lost something profoundly essential. The very nature of faith allegiance, belief, and the love relationship that followers have with the one they follow requires radical living.
Radicalism, in our modern society, is seen as extreme. If you hold strong views—if you believe distinctly in certain values—that puts you on the edge of unreasonableness. However, that is exactly what would have been said of Jesus, and many of us are happy to line up with him. That radicalism is the pursuit of justice, the sharing of the commitment of one’s life, and the giving away of oneself. That is the radicalism that we need to discover in our century.
When I think of radical people I am delighted to mention two people who live in the noble and right reverend Lord’s own area of Oxford: two very dear friends of mine, Tom and Jane Benyon. In the last three years, these two people—one in their 60s, one in their mid-70s—have walked 1,500 miles to raise £2 million for the poorest people of the broken communities of Zimbabwe. Why does a former Conservative MP from another place choose to commit himself to the task of walking around England when he needs a hip replacement, in order to raise money for the people of Zimbabwe, for which he gets no gratitude from the British Government, let alone the Zimbabwean Government? It is because of his radical pursuit of the conviction that he says Jesus has placed on him and on his wife—the founder of the first food bank in Oxford, now a network of food banks; it is because the radical pursuit of Jesus, of belief, of conviction, leads you to defined and distinct actions.
The embrace of people on the outside is not about a tolerant place in which we can all feel easily comfortable, it has to be about a radical place in which we make distinct decisions to help those on the margins, to choose to act with justice, to receive those who have little and to give to them, even from our little. The Economist, just a few weeks ago, had an amazing report on the growth of the church in China—fascinating: 300 million committed believers, followers of Jesus, in China. It is amazing—almost more people than the population of the United States. However, the Economist concluded with a very interesting reflection: what, it asked, would kill this church dead? The answer was: if it becomes institutionalised, if it becomes a state-accepted church. In that case it will accept the tolerance required by the state and the system; it will lose its edge; it will give way to being simply an accepted mediocrity. It will no longer challenge its society. And so it will die. Let us get radicalism back into the agenda of our faith.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)
My Lords, I start by thanking the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, for securing this debate and articulating it in such a timely and profound fashion. In the little time I have today I want to concentrate on the role of religion in education—in schools in both the maintained and independent sectors—and to talk specifically about minority faiths in this context.
We probably have broad agreement that the civic purpose of education should be to prepare children for their role as equal citizens of an ethnically and religiously diverse liberal democracy and to encourage the development of their autonomy in order that they can grow to fulfil their potential as adults. However, too many schools are not delivering that kind of education. In these schools, we often see the rights of individual students subsumed into the forced homogeneity of “community” and “cultural” identities. When taken to its extreme, as we have seen in some minority faith schools, an emphasis on group culture has allowed communities to enforce their own values and traditions upon the children. We have had the Jewish Yesodey Hatorah girls’ school in east London being rebuked by the exam regulator, Ofqual, for redacting questions relating to human reproduction and evolution on exam papers. Nevertheless, the school defiantly continues to shield young girls from vital scientific knowledge, and now simply “advises” students not to answer exam questions which conflict with the school’s strict Orthodox religious beliefs. This school’s attitude is, I am afraid, indicative of a wider problem of faith-based schools narrowing the curriculum to suit their own particular religious ethos.
The recent Ofsted inspections of independent Islamic schools in Tower Hamlets also highlighted how students are left vulnerable to extremist influences focusing on conservative interpretations of Islam, at the expense of other important areas of the curriculum. At Mazahirul Uloom School, inspectors found that pupils were unable to tell the difference between Sharia law and British law—in particular, English law. All six of the independent Muslim schools inspected in that area were judged to be failing to provide pupils with,
“an appropriately broad and balanced curriculum”.
In one school, the curriculum was focused entirely on Islamic themes.
Of course we must ensure that parents’ religious and philosophical convictions are respected in the educational provision that the state offers. Article 2 in the Human Rights Act secures that but the demand for a religious education, wholly on parents’ terms, is an unreasonable and potentially divisive demand which must be resisted. It is also important to point out that Article 2 does not provide an absolute right. However outward-looking we may hope that all minority faith schools are, the fact is that they are one of the main points of contact for a child outside the home. When society allows them to be the vehicle for propagating and promoting segregation and closed-mindedness to mainstream values, it is surely right for the state to step in and correct that imbalance. It has been less robust in that integrating function than it should have been.
In short, if future generations are to live together, they must learn together so, rather than facilitating the segregation of pupils along religious lines, we should be doing everything we can to ensure that children of all faiths and none are educated together in a respectful and inclusive environment. For Liberal Democrats, that means an end to the outdated law requiring all maintained schools to hold a daily act of “broadly Christian” worship. Such a law is unevenly applied and can reduce a broad and balanced approach, seriously undermining parents’ abilities to raise their children in accordance with their own beliefs.
It is important to recognise that organised religion has played a positive role in the development of state education in Britain. However, Britain’s religious landscape has changed radically since the Butler Education Act of 1944. We are both one of the most religiously diverse and least religious countries in the world. The time has come to look again at the role of religion in our nation’s schools and to be radical about that. Parents who want to give their child a religious upbringing are at liberty to do so, at home and wherever they worship, but it is not a reasonable demand of a national curriculum, where children’s independent interests and society’s longer-term cohesion should always be the priority.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)
My Lords, religion has been a powerful force for good and ill down the ages, both inside and outside its institutions. Perversions of faith have led its believers to sacrifice its own in the most terrifying ways, and so it continues today through the jihads. However, I want to begin by celebrating some of the good and, as a Christian, considering some of the forces that led to the huge reforms in our society. Within that, I congratulate my noble and right reverend friend Lord Harries on getting this debate and thank him for his constant care and capacity to put up with lesser mortals and help them with their thinking.
Who is to say whether the great reformers would have undertaken the work that they did, had they not been driven by a spiritual belief that it was what God expected and, knowing that service is perfect freedom, they expected themselves to achieve great things? I am a trustee and the vice president of Livability, an organisation formed from the merger of two great charities, the Shaftesbury Society and John Grooms. John Groom and Lord Shaftesbury were contemporaries, both men of huge faith, who used their wealth and influence to care for the poor and the disabled. Their work from 100 years ago continues through Livability, the largest Christian-based caring charity, where hundreds of disabled and elderly people are accommodated or looked after in their own communities. One of the roles that I undertake for the charity is chairing the safeguarding committee, ensuring an added layer of protection for the children and adults in our care.
All large organisations need to be particularly watchful and, where there are possibilities of harm, they must have systems that underpin the positive principles of their mission. We know that the expression of any kind of belief does not necessarily ensure that individuals will not harm others; indeed, in some cultures it does ensure harm. The long list of scandals that have shaken the Christian churches, as well as practices such as branding children as witches in some cultures and the justification of female genital mutilation by some clerics, are all negative testimony to what can go wrong with belief. Even if in nowhere else in our society, however, people of faith should ensure in all their institutions the protection and development of children and adults in need of care. That should include the promotion of equality between genders and in education, ensuring that children are able to develop their own freedom to think and consider all ideas.
Most Christian churches, if not all, are hierarchical, and hierarchies are about power relationships. Sexual abuse, which I want to mention, is also about hierarchical power. There are often other social phenomena that add to the dangers. Church life is intense, with combinations of faction and loving co-operation; no one ever thinks it is going to happen in their church, mosque or temple, so there is denial. Or there is the mistaken belief that the abuse was a mistake, that it will not happen again and that the perpetrator must be given another chance. Let us remember that Christians have forgiveness as one of the most important tenets of their belief system, and sometimes it clouds judgment. There is confusion between forgiveness, pastoral care and protection, both among individuals and in the institution itself. No one wants another scandal. So the perpetrator is given another chance, offends again and again, and the lives of children are again blighted.
The Church of England, however, is working hard to ensure that there is greater vigilance. Each community has a safeguarding officer with an expert at diocesan level to provide support and, where needed, intervention. The archbishops in the Church of England have set in place a whole new structure, both to listen to those affected by historical abuse and to ensure greater vigilance and better responses in the here and now. There remains much to be done but it is an excellent start. I declare an interest, as I sit on the safeguarding committee.
Jesus Christ championed children, women, the disabled and the poor, so it is down to those who profess to follow his example that we do the same—probably, radically. The positive role of religion and belief drives some of our highest aspirations and greatest achievements. It also must make us face the darkness where we find it and challenge and change it for the better.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, and congratulating him on introducing this debate and the manner in which he did so. I should also like to say how moved I was by the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, who spoke particularly tellingly of the role of the established church, which I, like she, am glad to belong to. I feel strongly that the greatest strength of the established church is that everyone in England lives in a parish and is entitled to the services and ministrations of that church, whatever the individual belief. That places a particular obligation upon the Anglican Church.
I should like to make a specific suggestion in the brief time that I have available. I hesitate to bore your Lordships by referring to Magna Carta yet again, but we have its great anniversary to celebrate next year. The charter that said,
“To no one will we sell … deny or delay … justice”,
also gave a specific place for the church in England at that time. I said a moment ago that there is an obligation upon the Church of England to give leadership. In spite of all the things that divide us, certain things unite the great faiths that are represented in this country and, indeed, in this House. They include a sense of civic right and responsibility, a belief in the centrality of family life, a belief in the duty to help the weak and to give incentive and encouragement to the young—without destroying their innocence, which we debated in this House last night.
It would be a marvellous thing if next year the noble and right reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury and his fellow bishops could seek to bring together in a national forum the leaders of all faiths in this country, to work out a great charter for 2015 underlining the things that I have just mentioned, thereby helping to give to all our young people in particular a preparation for adult life and becoming full citizens—all acknowledging their rights and responsibilities. When I was a young boy, everyone accepted —whether or not that acceptance was accompanied by religious belief—the basic tenets of the Christian faith: certain things were right and acceptable and others were not. Since those days this country has developed into a pluralistic society, but one in which the Church of England still has a fundamental role—as does the Church of Scotland in that other part of the United Kingdom, although cast in a different mould.
It would be absolutely splendid if next year there could be an underlining of these things that we loosely called in a debate earlier this year “British values”. The adherents of virtually all faiths—be they Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or Jewish—can identify with those core values. If religion is indeed to continue to play a constructive and fundamental part in our national life, we need to focus attention on those things which are,
“true … honest … lovely … of good report”,
to quote the prayer book. I therefore take this opportunity to appeal to noble Prelates on that Bench, and through them the hierarchy of the Church of England, to try to take a real initiative and give leadership that is not based on superiority but on equality, and that reaches out especially to our young people, but also to the old and vulnerable, at a time when we will have the opportunity to commemorate the foundation of the rule of law and civil liberty in this great country of ours.
Lord Warner (Lab)
My Lords I, too, am grateful to my near neighbour, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for securing this debate and for his excellent introduction. On a personal level, I am also grateful for his continuing tolerance of my robust secularism. I declare my interests as the chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Humanist Group and my appointment as Commissioner for Children’s Services in Birmingham. Following the excellent speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, I want to focus on some of the issues of public policy raised by recent experiences of the practices in some extreme faith-based schools.
At a recent meeting of the All-Party Parliamentary Humanist Group, we heard from the original Trojan horse whistleblower at Park View School in Birmingham, from a former Haredi Jew who grew up and was educated in Stamford Hill in Hackney, and from a young man who attended an Accelerated Christian Education school and is now doing a PhD studying experiences of ACE schools. I have to tell your Lordships that “ace” is a bit misleading as a description of those schools. The parliamentarians at the meeting, from all political parties, were truly shocked to learn what was going on in some of our schools in 21st-century Britain in the name of religious beliefs, and by the apparent inability of our legal and regulatory systems to safeguard our children from what can only be described as indoctrination and abuse.
I will say a little about what we heard about the ACE and Haredi school experiences. There is a network of 30 to 40 private ACE schools in the UK. The curriculum is a fundamentalist Christian one that originated in the United States. It is widely considered to be creationist, homophobic and misogynistic. The teaching materials used in these schools that were presented to us certainly supported this view. Much of the material is in a comic strip format with characters that could only be described as risible if they were not being used to brainwash and indoctrinate young minds. It was very scary that the so-called science teaching was leading to certification that was being used to progress children to further education.
The insularity of children in the ACE schools was repeated by the descriptions of education in a Haredi Jewish school. Here was a young man who literally had to escape from his community at the age of 18, having had no education in this country apart from religious study and despite speaking no English, because his so-called education had been conducted in Yiddish. This young man, now in his 20s, is a smart, articulate campaigner trying to expose the fact that more than 2,000 boys from this sect are being educated today in illegal unregistered schools. He struggles to understand why we collectively seem unable to safeguard children from his experience.
These young men and many others have had appalling educational experiences, all in the name of the religious beliefs of their parents. They are our fellow citizens for whom our legal and regulatory processes are failing to deliver the “balanced and broadly based” education—that is the wording of the statute—that they are entitled to under our current education legislation. Parliament has made clear what sort of education children in this country are entitled to expect and that is likely to fit them for the world they are living in. That entitlement is not the narrow indoctrination of their parents’ beliefs enforced through closed communities.
The children receiving such a narrow education are, in my view, being abused and deserve better protection than we currently afford them. It is arguable that this abuse is on a par with the kind of emotional child abuse in which the state has always intervened with parents in order to protect children from their parents’ excesses. This is a public policy issue that we need to debate and not shelter behind a screen of liberal tolerance of personal freedom of religious belief. That tolerance rightly extends from adult to adult but does not, in my book, extend to abusing vulnerable children trapped in households that deny them access to the balanced and broadly based education that the law entitles them to. We need to address some of these issues and not run away from them in the interests of the children who are vulnerable to these excesses and living in our society, some not many miles from this House.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)
My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for securing this important debate. As a Sikh, I see religion—I include beliefs such as humanism—as commonsense guidance on how to meet the many challenges of trying to lead a responsible and meaningful life.
Unfortunately, not everyone sees religion in that way. A year ago in a debate in this Chamber, religion was blamed as being “out of step” with society. To me, that is a bit like someone complaining that his sat-nav was not following his directions. The argument for banishing religions to the margins of society would carry some weight if secular society was seen to be leading to a fairer and more contented and peaceful society. But all the evidence is that it is not. Every day in this House, we have Oral Questions on the lines of, “What are the Government doing about this or that concern?” The general response, couched in elegant terms, is, “We are doing a lot more than the previous lot when they were in power”. This is not a criticism of government. The truth is that Governments can, at best, only put legal boundaries around unacceptable behaviour; they cannot make us better people.
I will give some examples. Monday was International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women. The need to have a day to remind us that women often suffer violence and gross abuse itself shows that all is not well with society. It was also mentioned that 77 women in the UK had been killed in domestic violence. There was reference to a Troubled Families programme—another reminder that all is not well. A report in the Times this week revealed that a staggering 230,000 people in England and Wales are going through divorce each year, with a devastating effect on children. Two-thirds of children whose parents separate, often in acrimonious circumstances, are driven to drugs and alcohol abuse, eating disorders and poor performance in schools. Our current obsession with “me, my rights and my happiness” can have a devastating effect on those around us in this and other areas.
Religious teachings are essentially preventive. Without such teachings we tend to look to sticking-plaster solutions. Today, the response to domestic violence is to build more refuges. The response to drunken and loutish behaviour is, “Let’s extend licensing hours”; to rising drugs problems, “Let’s legalise the use of drugs”; and, to an increasing number of people in prisons, “Let’s build more prisons”. Let us extend this line of thinking to the behaviour of little junior who greets visitors to the house by kicking them in the shins. Solution: issue said visitors with shin pads as they enter the front door.
Whenever I am asked to do a “do-it-yourself assembly”, I throw the instructions to one side and quickly put the pieces together with nuts and bolts to spare. I then stand back to admire my handiwork and see it all skewed and ready to fall apart. Then, and only then, I turn to the book of instructions. We have become a bit of a do-it-yourself society in the way in which we have thrown our religious instructions to one side in constructing remedies to social problems that ignore deeper issues of right, wrong and responsibility—the essence of religious teachings. Jesus Christ taught that, “Man does not live by bread alone”. Bread, the material side of life is important, but there is much more to living than mere material existence.
The Sikh gurus taught that we must live in three dimensions at the same time: reflecting on and living core ethical teachings; earning by our own honest effort; and, thirdly and most importantly, that we have a responsibility to look to the needs of those around us and the well-being of wider society. That putting of others before self is something that we need constantly to be reminded about, rather than living our current obsession with “me, my rights and my happiness”. Yes, religion is an important ethical sat-nav, but we must remember to keep it switched on and to follow its sometimes demanding directions towards a fairer and more peaceful society.
The Lord Bishop of Norwich
My Lords, like other noble Lords I am very grateful to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for securing this debate. I notice that the commission of which he is part is considering how religion may contribute to,
“greater levels of mutual trust and collective action, and to a more harmonious society”.
I will address the reference to mutual trust, especially with regard to our public life, which is far from well. The level of cynicism about our political structures and politicians finds reflection in an all too common assumption that many people in public life are not to be trusted. That is true for religious leaders, too, and for almost anyone in the public eye, and it generates cynicism about the state itself.
In the United Kingdom we need a much more elevated understanding of what the state is called to be—and here, religion has its part to play. Too often, for want of that, we are reduced to sterile discussions about British values, which seem largely to consist of tolerance and queuing, although I have certainly been in queues which were not the least bit tolerant.
In this House the Throne is the symbol of the one person in public life who is called to embody the nation. William Temple, who thought and wrote much about the place of religion in public life before his untimely death during the Second World War, said in 1928, intriguingly, that the public at the time did not regard King George V as head of state. He wrote that the King was,
“the impersonation of the Community—a greater thing. When the King opens Parliament, we see the Community, in his person, calling on its servant, the State, to discharge its functions”.
Therefore William Temple spoke of the state as the servant of the community of the nation.
Service, in the Christian tradition, is a vocation. When Jesus washed the feet of his disciples he reversed the power relationship between the teacher and his followers. Two thousand years ago, service never made you great; it was a sign of your enslavement. These days, by contrast, everyone wants to do us a service. The so-called service industries are often thought to be one of the strongest parts of our economies. The supermarkets fall over themselves in wanting to be of service to us, yet we know that they are very powerful organisations. When businesses, politicians or even bishops say that they want to be of service to the people, they do not always convince.
The state is seen by many people as powerful, heavy and inert, and not on their side. Many people in our society see religion in much the same way. Yet in many faiths, the image of a journey or a pilgrimage is the metaphor for life, and for Christians the journey is towards the kingdom of God. The Prayers in this Chamber may be unchanging every day, but every day we also pray that God’s kingdom will come. Even in Parliament, we have no abiding city.
That is a crucial perspective on all political institutions and social constructions, too: they are all penultimate at best. The quest, as always, is for a better society. We should not be satisfied with what we have constructed—not through cynicism, though, but through aspiration. One of the roles of religion in public life is to witness to that quest for a better world and to recover a spirit of trusted service and intergenerational solidarity. Edmund Burke, whom the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, referred to earlier, defined the state as a partnership between,
“those who are living, those who are dead, and those who are to be born”.
As I look at the long lists of rectors and vicars in so many medieval churches in Norfolk, I am reminded of the inheritance and continuities of faith. Then I look at the children and families who come to Messy Church within them—I suspect that that has never been mentioned in this Chamber before—and I see novelty in religious practice. We need places with a visible continuity between past and present that have hope for the future.
When people gather together for worship, they form moral communities as they acknowledge their weakness and seek forgiveness. They serve each other and the wider community, and seek to build trust between each other and beyond. There are tens of thousands of such churches and other groups that build such cultures of trust in our country. They are not all religious, not by any means, but religion is significant within them.
When we speak of broken states in our world, what has broken down is trust. No state can fulfil its vocation to build a culture of trust between its citizens if they do not build cultures of trust among themselves. Therefore the role of religion is to build cultures of trust. There will be no trust in any state or in public life if we do not first build it among ourselves.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for making this debate possible, and I am delighted to follow the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich. I agree with a lot of what he said, but I think he would be dismayed if I agreed with everything—he knows that I will not.
Without wishing to add an element of levity, if I had to set a pub quiz question it would be: apart from the House of Lords, in which legislature in the world is a block of seats reserved for members of a religion? Any takers?
Lord Dubs
Right. Most people do not get that. I will come back to that issue in a moment.
I speak as a humanist and an agnostic, but not as a person who is anti-religion. Indeed, there is a lot of good—without wishing to sound patronising—in many religious beliefs and teachings. Of course, Pope Francis has raised the level by saying some very important things with which I am certainly in agreement. However, I have also met bigots in the world of religion, especially when I was in Northern Ireland.
I will talk about two things: the role of religion in the House of Lords, and education. I believe in an elected second Chamber, but that is some way ahead. I would be much happier if Bishops, who all make an enormous contribution to the work of this House, were here as Members of this House in their own right rather than as a block vote, a block of people, put in by one religion only. For example, the noble and right reverend Lords, Lord Harries and Lord Eames, and the former Chief Rabbi all make an important contribution to our debates but do so in their own right, not because they have been put in as part of a trade-union-style block vote. I am not suggesting that the Bishops all speak with one voice; indeed, it is sometimes very interesting to see them differ a little. However, there is a point of principle here as to whether only one religion should have a formal membership in this House. If Bishops were appointed differently, that would not affect the basis of the Church being established. Actually, it would be of benefit to the Church of England if it were not an established church, but, that is perhaps a debate for another day.
I will say something about education, and I very much endorse the views of my noble friend Lord Warner. I came across this issue in Northern Ireland in particular, where the division of society is reflected in the way that children are educated. Even today, over 90% of children are in schools that are defined by one religion or the other. Integration would not solve all the problems in Northern Ireland, but the current system has had a very divisive effect. If children from one religion are there together, they do not meet children from the other religion and they tend to demonise them. That has had a very divisive effect on Northern Ireland. When asked, 70% to 80% of parents say that they would like the choice to send their children to either an integrated school or one of the other schools. That does not mean that they will all do so. Where there are integrated schools—I am still talking about Northern Ireland, of course—they tend to be oversubscribed and they provide a wonderful education. This is not to deny religion, but to say that we are going to be educated together as members of one community. I actively support the campaign for integrated education in Northern Ireland and hope that there will be more integrated schools there as time moves forward.
I turn to education in this country. I understand that some religious establishments are very good and popular with parents. This is partly because they have a selective element within them; that is to say, they do well because they select rather than taking from across the catchment area as whole. However, I fear that the more religious-based schools we have, the more divisive will be the consequences. We only have to read what is said in the newspapers about schools—the noble Lord, Lord Warner, gave some examples—to see that they are having a damaging effect on our society and on the religions themselves. We should at least be able to stop the progress towards more religious-based education. I wish that we could turn the clock back, although that would be difficult at this stage. Many religious schools have an adverse effect on this country and on their local communities. At the very least they should be encouraged, as some do, to take in children of other faiths and other religions.
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble and right reverend friend Lord Harries of Pentregarth for initiating this debate on such an important range of topics.
I want to say something about the importance of the ways in which we think about and approach differences in religion and belief in public life. An obvious starting point is to turn to the relevant rights to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and to consider how these differ from the much more frequently discussed rights to freedom of expression. I declare an interest as chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which is doing detailed work on these rights and their implementation in law and in institutional life, but nothing that I shall say here draws on that work. What I shall try to say will be more elementary.
Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is very closely modelled on Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states:
“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance”.
As with most other rights proclaimed in the European Convention and in other fundamental documents, Article 9 is not an unqualified right. The second part of the article lists ways in which this right may legitimately be limited specifically in order to respect other rights and matters of public interest. It runs:
“Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others”.
Nevertheless, Article 9 articulates a profoundly important and distinctive right that matters for addressing religion and belief in public life.
I want to make three points. First, this right is the successor to the great traditions that established the importance of religious toleration in north-western Europe, above all in Britain and the Low Countries in and following the Reformation. Today, toleration is often interpreted in a tepid way as no more than a matter of putting up with something, so as to demand no more than mere indifference. Unlike my noble friend Lord Hastings I take a more radical and classical view of toleration. Nothing could have been further from the view of the early protagonists of religious toleration than the thought that it was something tepid or mere indifference. They thought of it as a profoundly, excruciatingly difficult virtue—a duty not to repress belief or to persecute others, even when their beliefs were taken to be profoundly wrong and subversive.
When Oliver Cromwell famously wrote in 1650 to the Assembly of the Kirk of Scotland with the words:
“I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken”,
he was acknowledging that tolerating others’ beliefs can be enormously hard because we may find it impossible to imagine that our own beliefs could be mistaken. Toleration became central to the history of Europe and, subsequently, of human rights, not because it was a matter of indifference but because it was profoundly difficult and yet a duty.
I suggest that this is something that we forget at our peril. When we need to engage with others, whether their beliefs are religious or secularist, it is not enough to refrain from persecuting them or to be indifferent to them. Toleration demands more. It is incompatible with dismissing or deriding others’ beliefs or treating them with condescension. Genuine toleration requires respect for others and the effort of intellect and imagination to grasp what they say.
Article 9 is important for two further reasons. It is not merely a right of self-expression. That is Article 10—a right to freedom of expression that includes the freedom to hold and impart opinions, which is a familiar part of our public culture and protects individual and press freedoms. However, it does not address the right to protect and manifest religion or belief,
“alone or in community with others and in public or private”.
Such manifestations, both shared and private acts of worship and ceremonies, are central to religious observance. So Article 9 is not a right that protects the expression of just any belief or opinion that a person may happen to hold and want to express. For that, Article 10 would be enough. Article 9 is narrower in its scope. It is intended to protect life-orienting systems of belief rather than mere opinion, however idiosyncratic or objectionable. Those who hold highly controversial views on matters such as sexual activity with children, or the desirability of various sorts of revolution, may appeal to Article 10. Their mere holding of those views will not in itself be prohibited, but manifestation alone or with others often is criminalised.
Article 9 is demanding in a final way. It protects the freedom of each person to change his or her religion, a right that is far from secure in many parts of the world where apostasy is still treated as a crime and barbarous treatment is inflicted in the name of religious orthodoxy. We think of the persecution and suffering of Christians in parts of the Middle East and elsewhere. Much blood was shed to achieve toleration, and we should not forget that.
Lord Stone of Blackheath (Lab)
My Lords, there is a vital role and a need in public life for those principles of compassion, understanding and spiritual enlightenment that are at the heart of religions and their associated beliefs. Yet, particularly as I work in the Middle East, I often find a disastrous disconnect of religion and belief from the feelings of heart, mind and soul that they should engender. As the noble Lord, Lord Singh, said, in public life we have a choice. We can either act selfishly, thinking first of me and my family and my tribe and what I want now and for the next week or the next year, or, with a little more open heart and mindfully, we can proceed with a higher level of consciousness, thinking of the impact of our actions on all beings for all times.
This mindfulness and higher consciousness is at the heart of most religions and the great traditions of the East. Although one does not need to have a religious belief, many of the sustained religions and philosophies have methods, rites and ceremonies that are designed to enable one, through contemplative practice, to engender in oneself such mindfulness. Mindfulness is complexly defined because it is an experience and not a theory. In Judaism, Taoism, Buddhism and other traditions, one cannot speak of it. It is known to be ineffable.
When he spoke on the Parliamentary Estate last year, Jon Kabat-Zinn put it simply as: “Mindfulness means paying attention in a particular way, on purpose and non-judgmentally, to the unfolding experience moment by moment”. Evidence shows that even short periods of mindfulness practice reshape neural pathways, increase the areas associated with kindness, compassion and rationality and decrease those involved with anxiety, worry and impulsiveness.
A religion and belief in one’s private life may help one in public life; it is not easy to maintain this mindful state in public life, but those who have these beliefs, by adhering to certain practices and communal ceremonies, can experience a heightened state of consciousness to connect with something greater than their habitual selves, which puts them in a state where compassion and empathy come to a fore, values come before self and one is better able to see and understand other people’s points of view. However, there is a danger here, as articulated by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill. Believing that your particular religion or belief is the only path is an illusion. These rituals and rites are not ends in themselves; only when you use them skilfully does mindfulness arise.
I cite some examples in public life, starting with my own field of business and philanthropy. In Oxford this month, wealthy American investors, foundations and philanthropists, under the umbrella of the Cavendish Global Forum, with the help of an enlightened international “connectress”, Amber Nystrom, met some great people who were developing various social enterprises aiming to do the most good across the world. The US impact investors wanted to ensure that their money could flow into good things that would benefit all beings for all time yet still have a commercial return. They know that a belief in a higher purpose can help to make enterprises grow faster and prosper.
In education, I have spoken before about the successful Mindfulness in Schools project, a collaboration with psychologists at Oxford, Cambridge, Exeter and Bangor universities. It is an eight-week course written by teachers for teachers; the curriculum has been translated into eight languages and is being taught effectively in 38 countries. In health, mindfulness has been verified by NICE to be more effective than drugs and other therapies for many mental and physical illnesses. In the criminal justice system, mindfulness is used effectively for criminals, victims and police.
Finally, pulling this all together, we have here an active, vibrant All-Party Parliamentary Group on Mindfulness, which has been asked to present its work to the German and Dutch Parliaments as well as to the Knesset and other Parliaments. The APPG is currently writing a report to be ready in January for a strategy in the UK for mindfulness in education and health—we will give this evidence to the new mental health taskforce—the criminal justice system, business and government.
Religion and belief have important roles to play in public life as long as they are being used to engender mindfulness. On the flipside, mindfulness in the absence of some of these rich, centuries-old traditions and religions can be limiting. I ask the whole House to take note of the report on mindfulness strategy in the UK, which will be completed next year. Perhaps we might have an interesting debate here on that subject in your Lordships’ House.
Noble Lords might want to try mindfulness for themselves. The APPG has arranged that on every Tuesday on the estate, Chris Cullen from the Oxford Mindfulness Centre runs classes that take an hour and a half once a week for eight weeks. There are separate classes for Lords and MPs in one session and for staff in another. Some 115 Lords, MPs and staff have taken part and have enjoyed and benefited from these sessions in the past 18 months, and we are about to start session in the spring.
Lord Blair of Boughton (CB)
My Lords, I need to declare an interest in that I am a trustee of the Woolf Institute for the study of relations between the Abrahamic faiths, and I gave evidence to the commission chaired by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss.
In the few minutes that I have, I want to talk about ignorance, starting with ignorance of the Christian heritage in the UK. Last week that was reinforced for me by a recent commentary by an education correspondent in a very reputable newspaper, which I shall not name, about government proposals for the religious studies GCSE that it must include the study of two faiths. The example given by the journalist was that schools would now have to teach Judaism and Islam and another school would now have to teach Christianity, including Catholicism. Until recently, my concerns about this have been about the loss of civic identity and education. I read English literature at university and I just do not understand how anybody could read Milton, Herbert, Hopkins or Eliot without an understanding of Christian history or theology. That does not seem to me to be really the point.
Since 9/11 and all that has followed, that ignorance has become much more dangerous. While the kind of exclusively narrow religious education described by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is shocking and needs action to stop it, we should also be concerned with the basic lack of knowledge about not only Christianity but so many religions in many mainstream schools. Many children appear to be brought up in a world in which religion equates with danger, with Islam equalling mad-eyed bearded men acting with great cruelty, Christianity being something taught by Koran-burners in Florida, and Judaism being synonymous with the actions of the Jewish state.
As we all know, great evil has been done in the name of religion, but worse has been done in the name of the secularist creeds of left and right. We need to recapture and re-emphasise the essential compassion that lies at the heart of all great religions. If—and as a number of noble Lords have said, I think that it is an if—faith schools are to continue to exist, we should insist on all faith schools teaching comparative religion and emphasising their common compassion.
Imam Monawar Hussain recently addressed the Oxford diocesan synod. He pointed to extremist Muslim sects as having three characteristics: literalism of interpretation; the use of so-called “proof texts” without context; and the stated desire to set themselves apart by being more holy, faithful and certain than other coreligionists. Those of us from other faith traditions will recognise that analysis.
Tom Holland, the historian, wrote this August in the Sunday Times that the success of the Islamic State on the battlefield must be counterbalanced by defeat in the mosques, in churches and in seminars in schools of theology by emphasising commonality and compassion between religions. For the UK and much of Europe, that much is now urgent, and I hope that the work of the Woolf Institute in producing this report will be helpful to that end. I commend it to the House.
Lord Haskel (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for his debate. He may remember a debate about faith and public life many years ago. Then the debate was about economics, and how to divide up the cake, what faith told us about dividing up the cake and how it should be done. How times have changed. Now faith in public life asks us who we are, how we live together while celebrating our diversity, and how compatible our diverse faith is with Britishness—or is diversity a threat? Economics has given way to identity, and this is complicated by the possibility of individuals holding multiple identities; the change in family circumstances brought about by increasing physical mobility; the rise of “blended” families; and the rapid renewal through generational change.
The Institute for Jewish Policy Research, of which I am the honorary president, did a survey about Jewish identity and found how identity mainly begins at home and then at school. I join my noble friends Lady Massey and Lord Dubs in their concern about how we have allowed faith schools to celebrate diversity, which has in fact caused division by enabling communities to close in on themselves. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, showed how different faiths and schools set about curtailing contact with other faiths and the rest of the world outside their community. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Blair. Intolerance arises from genuine ignorance and a lack of experience of the other. With identity playing such a crucial part in our lives, schools will have to reflect society. I think that the Woolf consultation will find that public opinion is moving towards reduced autonomy and faith schools will have to become a lot more mixed.
Digital faith communities are now an established part of public life. Religious leaders have their own active social media sites, with thousands, and in some cases millions, of followers. The Bible has its own Facebook page, and there are sites encouraging people in Britain to come together and pray for those less fortunate. Yet, because of perceived threats, public opinion on a free and open internet is changing. Tuesday’s proposed quick-passage Bill shows a hardening of attitudes here in Parliament.
That has happened because there are also extremist faith sites—I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, will note that I am careful not to use the word “radical”. Those sites preach intolerance and hatred. Their owners are difficult to trace, and may well be outside this country. Again, liberal values are under threat.
I support liberal values. Indeed, I belong to the liberal Jewish community—so I spoke to Rabbi Danny Rich, the senior rabbi and chief executive of Liberal Judaism. He agreed that faith-based organisations ought to be involved in social and political action, in accordance with adherent interpretations of their faith. Sensibly, he told me that he hoped that disagreements between and within faiths would be handled in accordance with Britain’s democratic values. Rabbinic decision-making is traditionally based on the view of a majority, after reasoned debate—but with the minority view being recorded, which means that we do not impose our views on others. Indeed, we try to be a blessing on others, as the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, has said.
Rabbi Danny Rich and I both felt that the current system of civil and criminal law in the UK is satisfactory in relation to issues of religion and belief. We would prefer that religious courts did not involve themselves in the civil law, and that religious communities did not seek to use the civil law to solve issues that their own religious authorities do not have the courage or the will to resolve. For example, Liberal Judaism accepts civil divorce, in the sense of not requiring people to undergo any further religious divorce procedure. In the same way it accepts same-sex marriage, because it is the law of the land—and that is the way it should be.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my interests in the register: I am a former commissioner of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. I am also a former chair of the Chapel Street Schools trust and a current chair of Chapel Street Community Fund, a community interest company. I am also a practising Anglican, but just a lowly back-bencher; I have no responsibility at all for anything the church may do.
I add my thanks to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, for giving us the chance to debate this issue. I also pay tribute to his work in this area, and his scholarship, for which I have been very grateful over the years. His speech was a wonderful opening to the debate. I was interested to hear about the work of the Commission on Religion and Belief in British Public Life. I commend the Woolf Institute for its interest, and I wish all the commissioners well in their deliberations. I hope we will have the opportunity to debate their findings in this House when they emerge in due course.
I shall try to address some of the areas of challenge that the noble and right reverend Lord set out for us as I go along, but it will be a challenge in itself to respond to the extraordinary range of speeches that we have heard. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, who observed that it is interesting that we are debating this issue at all. Fifty years ago, the idea that in 2014 Parliament would still be discussing the importance of religion and belief in public life would have seemed improbable at best. Then, it was assumed that by now religion would have withdrawn quietly from the public stage, and certainly from any involvement with the state. Believers would have dwindled in number and any religion that remained would be essentially a personal and private activity.
I remember that in 1968 the acclaimed sociologist Peter Berger said that by the 21st century,
“religious believers are likely to be found only in small sects, huddled together to resist a worldwide secular culture”.
Thirty years later, he said that,
“the assumption that we live in a secularised world is false: The world today, with some exceptions ... is as furiously religious as it ever was, and in some places more so than ever”.
Futurology is a difficult game, and one should not laugh. I am still waiting for my personal jetpack, as promised in the “Tomorrow’s World” of my childhood, and it has yet to materialise. So I understand and I sympathise with Peter Berger. It is a real lesson to all of us that if we think that today is a lesson in what tomorrow will look like, that is simply a challenge to our own concerns and our inability to look into the future.
If secularisation is no longer the certain shape of the future, that leaves some significant questions about the role of religion and belief in our public life, including how we respond to the growing importance of identity as a marker—a point made by my noble friends Lord Haskel and Lord Parekh, as well as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries. I do not have answers to all these questions, but they are incredibly important. I shall be very interested in the degree to which the Minister can help us along and the commission can lead us in the future. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, for highlighting the key issue of ignorance of religion as one of the drivers of our inability to know how to respond to the new importance of religion in our public life. I hope we can come back to discuss that again.
So what should be our attitude to the role of religion in public life? I think that we should start by honouring our heritage. Earlier this year, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury noted that our systems of ethics and justice, the protection of the poor, and most of how we look at society have been shaped by, and founded on, Christianity. As he pointed out, however, that view was shared by other faith groups. He quoted Farooq Murad of the Muslim Council of Britain, who said:
“No one can deny that Britain remains largely a Christian country”.
It is important to recognise that heritage.
The role that the established church still plays has been highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock. But of course, the relationship between religion and public life has altered a lot over time. The most reverend Primate himself acknowledged that, in terms of regular churchgoing, this is not a Christian country as it used to be not that many years ago—but, as he put it,
“the language of what we are, what we care for and how we act is earthed in Christianity, and would remain so for many years even if the number of believers dropped out of sight (which they won’t, in my opinion)”.
So I hope we can all accept that the Christian religion has played a formative role in the development of our life and identity as a country. That is not, of course, to say that acceptance of the dominant British values presupposes an acceptance of the beliefs and practices that helped to form them. I will be interested to see the Minister’s reaction to the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, that a new Magna Carta for the future might be a way to take this debate forward.
The history of Christianity in Britain also underpins some of our public institutions and services, particularly the history of schools—a subject that has been raised by a number of noble Lords. I shall have to contain myself here, because, as I should also declare, I am doing my PhD, incredibly slowly, on church and state through the medium of church schools. The result is that I probably know more about the history of church schools than is strictly socially acceptable, so I shall try to stop myself going on too much about the subject.
I first went into that area because I wanted to know why we had all these faith schools in our state education system. Then, of course, I discovered, as one so often does, that it was the other way round. Britain entered the 19th century with no mass education at all, and a couple of voluntary bodies created a very large number of schools. The National Society, which set out to create a church school in every parish, set up 12,000 schools in 40 years, many of which are still going nowadays. They were paid for by individual subscriptions. So essentially, the basis of our mass education was set up by the churches and the state system grew around that. That organic process that underlies so much of British life is something we need to recognise and understand to make decisions about going forward.
A legitimate question was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, as well as by my noble friends Lord Warner and Lord Dubs and others: what is the ongoing role of faith schools now, in modern life, especially in the state sector? There is always a variety of interests to be balanced. How much does one want educational homogeneity or heterogeneity? How important is parental choice? What is the impact of faith schools on community cohesion? What are the limits of what can be taught in a school? If faith schools were all private, how might that affect cohesion and the state’s ability to regulate and inspect them, compared with what it does at the moment?
On that last point, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Williams of Oystermouth, made an interesting point, which I think it is worth quoting in full:
“If the choice appears to be between systematically secular schools in the public sector and explicitly sectarian schools privately resourced, the dangers should be obvious … Religious conviction becomes something fiercely guarded from the light of public discussion or scrutiny; the way in which it relates to other areas of life and thought can only be looked at in ways that are not publicly accountable”.
That is food for thought, but it also presupposes well run faith schools with high-quality social, moral, spiritual and cultural education. Will the Minister tell the House what steps the Government are taking to support the ongoing development of that? Labour remains supportive of the continuing presence of faith schools within our state system, but it is of course essential that they, like all schools, teach a broad and balanced curriculum and equip their students to live alongside students of all faiths and none in our society.
I will touch briefly on the role of religion in social action. Some noble Lords may have seen the report from Demos last year looking at the contribution that believers and faith-based organisations make to our national life. It found that religious people in the UK are more likely to volunteer locally, to be civically engaged and engaged in charity, which has been established before. But, interestingly, they were also more likely to have higher levels of trust in other people and institutions and to believe that they could influence decisions nationally and locally, which is curious. I stress at this point that some of my best friends are atheists and humanists; indeed, some of my most respected colleagues on the Benches behind me fall into those categories. They are shining examples of people who give selflessly and sacrifice themselves in both service and giving to the cause. I mention that not to privilege faith but to counter some of the fears that can be expressed that faith can cause people to look inwards, whereas the opposite can be true.
The report highlighted some interesting cases studies. My noble friend Lord Stone of Blackheath may be interested to know about the London Buddhist Centre. He may already know about Breathing Space, which uses mindfulness to tackle mental health problems and addiction. The Near Neighbours programme, run by the Church of England, is effective in bringing neighbours in diverse areas together to work for the common good. Birdwell’s conclusions in this pamphlet were interesting: faith provides a unique underpinning to the commitment and motivation required to provide services, particularly to some of the hardest to help; faith-based services can be particularly effective in some areas; and faith groups and institutions provide valuable and important permanent structures in the local community, which can be used to aid social problems.
There is real food for thought there for policymakers and service designers. We need to learn from the strength of faith-based work but recognise that there are risks, both to the state and to the groups, of drawing faith-based groups into delivery. In the past, the state has sometimes sought to bank the advantages and mitigate the risks by somehow trying to separate the activities from the faith community, and that simply does not work. The research shows that.
On community, if Britain is not secular, it is also clearly not solely a Christian country any more and the relations between the various communities are crucial. However, I see some encouraging signs here. I see increasing evidence of religious communities tending to facilitate community-wide dialogue of the kind that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham described. When I went with the riots panel to Birmingham in the wake of the 2011 riots, I was hugely impressed to see the group that he chairs bringing together people from right across the community—from different faith, ethnic and local groups—to work together to tackle their problems. We were all hugely impressed by what we saw there.
Another example would be community organising, which brings together the members of mainstream churches with other religions but also with trade unions, parent bodies, homeless charities and a wide range of organisations. London Citizens is the most notable example, but it was the experience of its members that brought together ideas such as the living wage, which have gone on to be so successful. However, one of the things that citizen organising taught us was to recognise that talking about difference is not necessarily a problem and ignoring it does not necessarily work. When it comes to religion, particularity is everything. It is by talking about our own individual experiences and differences that we get to understand one another and go on to make a difference. At a time when, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich reminded us, politicians are struggling so hard to engage with people, finding faith-based organisations and talking to a wide range of communities might give us a lesson that we can all learn.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, I join all other noble Lords in thanking the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, for bringing this debate to the House today. It is an important issue. In doing so, I pay tribute to his enduring contribution to promoting our national heritage and his work, particularly with the Woolf Institute—a point also acknowledged by other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Blair. I warmly welcome the Woolf Institute’s consultation and look forward to the report next year. I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for his hard work in ensuring that this consultation is shared widely among those of all faiths and none. I also welcome his reference to the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, who could not join us today and I particularly welcome the contribution that he has made to the promotion of understanding faiths across the board.
We should never lose sight of the most significant element of any faith—what it means to each person of any faith. Faith touches on matters of great, fundamental importance to the individual—questions of eternal significance. I assure noble Lords that the role of government is not to intrude on those questions, but rather to assert boldly the right of each person to hold his or her own beliefs. Therefore, religion and belief are topics that governments should always approach with great sensitivity—a point well made by the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, and my noble friend Lord Alderdice in their contributions. However, governments have a profound responsibility to provide a just and tolerant framework of laws that enable people of different faiths or of no faith to live side by side. That is a great strength of our nation. Too often, diversity is thought of as a weakness; nay, it is indeed a strength of our great country
Many noble Lords, including the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham, reflected on our Christian heritage—a heritage that has been built over 14 centuries. Earlier this year, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister used his Easter address to speak about the importance of Christianity and Britain’s status as a Christian country. Speaking from personal experience of our country, my foundation in education was at a Church of England school. That did not make me less of a Muslim or more of a Christian, but it taught me a profound respect for beliefs, religions and traditions. It is a tradition that we should continue with. I feel strongly in that regard.
I believe that faith is a force for good. As the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, reminded us, many a prophet of yesteryear would be regarded today as radical as they were then. Let us not forget that they set the ball rolling in terms of teaching greater compassion and wrestling with the things that we are still wrestling with today such as the abolition of slavery, which was very much their pretext. I agree that people of faith sometimes need to wrestle back certain terms to ensure their true meaning.
An article in the Telegraph recently, written by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, warned of secularism, while it has a place, becoming so aggressive that it attacks religion in all respects and encourages intolerance towards others. I reinforce the Secretary of State’s words that the best response is to champion values that define our country, many of which are founded in faith. At heart, we are a Christian nation—from the established church in England to the language of the King James Bible, deeply woven into the fabric of our culture. But most importantly, we are, as several noble Lords mentioned, a place of justice and tolerance towards others. My noble friend Lord Alderdice mentioned that. Our defence of freedom, the rule of law and the evolution of our democracy have all grown from the seedbed of faith.
It has been interesting to see the role that faith has played in helping our immigrant communities to integrate into British society. As Minister for communities, including faith and integration, I wrestle with the challenges that communities pose. Since time immemorial and even in the past 100 years, communities of different cultures and faiths have settled here. Yes, we have had a few challenges and we have had ups and downs, but we have determined together to emerge and we have done so as a more resilient, stronger and more diverse nation, and we shall continue to do so. We need only look at the Christian community, with the migration of the Irish and Polish communities, which have seen a strengthening of practice at Catholic mass.
Turning to this Government’s record of engagement, my noble friend Lord Singh of Wimbledon—I call him my noble friend because we share Wimbledon in our titles—mentioned one Government saying that they had done more than another. I think that we can agree across the Chamber that this is about recognising what others have done and building positively on those foundations for our future. But I am mindful of the fact that this Government have taken certain actions in recognising minority communities—and, indeed, minority communities within minority communities. I was delighted to join the Secretary of State at the Hounslow Big Iftar with the Ismaili Muslim community, which is a great example of what is best about being British and proud of your faith—great company, food and music and concern for humanity, which is what we find across many faiths.
My department also has a strong record of engagement with the Ahmadiyya Muslim community, a community that has provided a beacon of hope, perseverance and charitable giving in our country. In addition to the Secretary of State’s visit to their Tower of London event marking the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee, I recently took part in their annual peace symposium. The event brought together more than 800 people and amplified the Ahmadiyya community’s resounding and heart-warming maxim, “Love for all, hatred for none”.
It was an honour also recently to meet Dr Rajesh Parmar, of the International Siddhashram Shakti Centre, and Satya Minhas, of the Hindu Council UK and the Metropolitan Police Hindu Association, at the International Siddhashram Shakti Centre in Harrow earlier this month, an occasion to mark the sterling and often forgotten contribution of soldiers of minority faiths who served so gallantly in the First World War. It has also been a great pleasure, in my first few months in this role, to meet some of the key people in British faith circles today. Prominent among those were the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury and Cardinal Nichols the Archbishop of Westminster. I look forward to my meeting in early December with the Chief Rabbi. These people are at the apex of their respective faiths and I look forward to working with them as we look at some of our challenges, building on how faiths can work together.
My noble friend Lord Cormack talked about the church and its ideas for a new charter in celebration of the anniversary of Magna Carta. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, alluded to this as well. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, that perhaps a sign of the importance of the role that the Bishops play is the fact that my noble friend directed his question not to the Minister on the Front Bench but to the Bishops on the spiritual Benches. I look forward to working with them as an extension of my work in this area. Again, that underlines the importance of faith communities and, as many noble Lord recognised, the diversity of faith representation in this House.
I turn to the church communities and their role. Let us not forget that the heartbeat of many communities up and down the country is the parish church, where people go not just to worship but to raise money for charity, take part in recreational activities and, indeed, socialise.
Let me assure all noble Lords—I shall come on to the challenging issue of extremism in a moment—that I recognise the importance of education, a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, my noble friend Lady Falkner and the noble Lord, Lord Blair. I am sure that noble Lords are aware that the Government have opened a consultation on the teaching of faith at GCSE and A-level. I encourage all noble Lords to contribute to the consultation, which I believe closes on 29 December. I feel a bit like the noble Lord, Lord Stone, plugging the mindfulness course—I am sure that that was also noted by many a noble Lord and that they will be lining up to sign up after this debate.
Parish churches are joined by many places of worship and faith communities in weaving the moral fabric, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, said, of what Britain is today, providing comfort to those who feel isolated, responding in times of trouble to relieve hardship and building communities of trust. Ultimately, the crucial element in building a society which is cohesive is that of respect. The Government actively celebrate the vital role of faith in our national life, guiding the moral outlook of many, inspiring great numbers of people to do public service and providing help to those in need, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham reminded us.
This has been most apparent through some of the work this Government have been directly supporting. Our integration policy and projects aim to break down barriers, emphasise local action and bring people together—celebrating what we have in common rather than what divides us, as my noble friend Lord Cormack said so eloquently. Recognising the catalyst of building on the hard work that happens not just in countless churches but in mosques, temples, gurdwaras and synagogues, as well as in many church and community halls, the Government are working together with communities locally to set in motion successful projects for further developing effective, friendly, working and respectful relationships between people of different faiths and none, so as to tackle social challenges.
We have therefore invested, for example, £8 million in the Church Urban Fund’s Near Neighbours programme. I notice that my noble friend Lady Eaton, who is involved in that project, is in her place. That programme is using the Church of England parish system to build productive local relationships between people of different faiths in areas of high deprivation. Only last month I was fortunate enough to visit the city of Bradford, a diverse city of many faiths, where I saw several social action projects on the ground, including one of the 721 Near Neighbours projects happening in England and Wales. The “Thank U Bradford” project, led by the energetic Pastor Ben Ayesu, is taking asylum seekers around Bradford to clean up the town in terms of graffiti, changing perceptions in people’s minds. Such projects encourage cross-cultural and cross-faith friendships while enabling participants to make a positive contribution to the local area.
I also had the opportunity to meet representatives of Bradford’s Muslim community, including the very dynamic Imam Asim, as well as representatives of various Sikh communities in the area. In addition, the Government are supporting the Together in Service programme, launched last year, to further strengthen faith-based social action throughout the country. We are investing more than £300,000 in this programme over two years. There are 43 projects now running, from Nottingham to Blackburn and Ealing. The list is quite extensive.
Perhaps nowhere is this reflected more than in our recently celebrated national Inter Faith Week. I am pleased to say there were more than 200 organised events across the country during Inter Faith Week in 2014, with more events still being reported. The noble Lord, Lord Singh, talked about interfaith matters with great compassion and great presence, as he always does. He talked of the satnav of religion. I say to him, and I am sure that many of all faiths would agree, that we may have satnavs of different models, which probably tell us to take different directions, but we hope that the starting point and the end point are always the same.
Poignantly, at this time of year, we remember those who gave their lives on foreign battlefields. We must not forget those from the Commonwealth who fought so bravely for our country. I was pleased to have been part of We Remember Too, a project to acknowledge and commemorate the role of soldiers of minority faiths, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Zoroastrians and others, who answered the call to arms. We remember and commemorate the bravery of the likes of Frank Alexander de Pass, Darwan Singh Negi and Khudadad Khan, the first soldiers of the Jewish, Hindu and Muslim faiths to receive the Victoria Cross as a result of brave activity during the First World War.
Highlighting the part played by the 400,000 Muslims —it is pertinent in the modern age to reflect on that—who fought for Britain in the First World War, for example, is one of the ways this Government are committed to showing that you can be proudly British and proud of your faith. I am testament to this; I am not self-conflicted and, in my case, I am proud of my faith in Islam. We recognise that people of all faiths are crucial to Britain’s history and British life today, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, mentioned.
The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, talked about the reading of the Koran in the cathedral. Let me share with noble Lords that during the recent Big Iftar, the month-long celebration of Ramadan, we saw Jewish synagogues open their doors to the community for the opening of the fast. That is the strength of our country. Our many faith groups live and breathe alongside each other; indeed, they give oxygen to each other, showing the extent of diversity in our great country. Together we are one family and that is where we reveal our greatest strength. As we build a strong nation, united in our belief in the primacy of our shared values, while celebrating the fact that our differences enrich us, as the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, said, we challenge those who have no wish to contribute to our society or, worse still, to disrupt and attack our very way of life.
I turn to the issue of extremism. Let me make it absolutely clear—I am sure that it is a sentiment shared by all—that extremism has no place in Britain and will not be tolerated. It creates environments conducive to violence and terrorism; it encourages segregation, disrespect for other cultures and restricted rights for women and for minorities. As my noble friend Lord Fowler said so passionately, differences, not just on gender or religion but on sexual orientation, cannot be allowed to destroy what Britain is today.
Turning to some specific questions, the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, and the noble Lord, Lord Singh, talked about the international day of non-violence—perhaps it is apt that I answered a Question on that a few days ago. I commend my right honourable friends the Home Secretary and the Education Secretary for their work in this area. We are working across government to ensure this issue is given full focus.
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, talked about indoctrination and abuse in schools, including elements of extremism. I agree with his assertion about the value of a broad-based education and commend the work he does. I remember answering a debate on the contribution of humanists to our great country.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham and the noble Lord, Lord Warner, raised the Trojan horse issues arising in Birmingham. I assure noble Lords that the Government are supporting institutions to identify and confront extremist influences. For example, we are improving inspection regimes, strengthening the rules for schools and demanding more from universities to prevent radicalisation on campus.
My noble friend Lord Alderdice talked about not oversimplifying interpretations of religion which can contribute to the risk of radicalisation and extremism. I assure my noble friend that the Government are developing a strategy for tackling extremism. We know that an important part of that strategy will be engaging with faith leaders of all denominations to ensure that the right voices, the voices of tolerance, moderation and respect, gain greater influence.
My noble friend Lady Falkner of Margravine spoke passionately about faith schools and education. It is essential that all schools prepare children for modern life. The recent Ofsted reports highlighted important failings in some Tower Hamlets schools. The Government are working with local school leaders and governors to ensure that children are not put at risk by the rise of extremism.
The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, also talked about faith schools, divisions and extremism. I recognise the serious points he made in this regard. The counterterrorism Bill announced by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary this week includes important measures to tackle internet radicalisation by extremists and terrorists. We acknowledge the value and challenges of online. That is where faith communities have a role. The right voices, the moderate voices, the voices of respect, should come forward and beat that challenge on the internet.
In my last few minutes, I shall turn to a few other points that were raised. My noble friend Lord Fowler spoke passionately about extending what we do internationally. It is important that the Government play their role. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, also spoke with great expertise and insight. The right to equality of belief must be afforded to all. It is deeply regrettable that religious minorities, including Christians, are suffering great persecution around the world. The Government are committed to supporting the fundamental human right to freedom of religion or belief abroad, and we stress to Governments around the world the importance of respecting universal human rights, including religious rights, and the rights of all minorities, as the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, pointed out. The Government have taken a strong lead in promoting equality and challenging prejudices abroad.
Recently, I had the honour and the emotional experience of going to Auschwitz-Birkenau. As I stood on that barren land, it reminded me of some of the challenges that confronted faith communities from someone who sought to eradicate a particular faith at a particular time. Britain has stood strong against such tyranny and will continue to do so. In the process of countering extremism, whether tackling anti-Semitism or anti-Muslim hatred, projects such as Tell MAMA, Remembering Srebrenica and the £2.1 million we allocate to Auschwitz-Birkenau ensure that these issues are not taken off the agenda. Strength in the face of adversity is something that all faiths give us as well as the strength to overcome tyranny. Standing in the barren grounds of Auschwitz just two weeks ago reminded me how far we have come and also of how important it is to continue to eradicate bigotry in all its forms.
In this ever-changing world we live in, one thing remains constant, and that is faith. It has survived the test of time and continues to breathe life into communities up and down the UK. We should be proud of how many faiths contribute to our national life today. What faith provides is unique, pure and, for many, irreplaceable. For millions, the faith they hold, whether based on the Torah, the Koran or some other source, is not only a personal, internal matter but a great motivator towards social action and a powerful impetus to change the world for the better.
Let us not forget those of no faith who feel equally as passionate about their position in society and who are equally passionate in serving humanity and their country. Those who expound a more secularist view also have deep respect and compassion and wish to make the world a better place.
This is a view we all treasure to help build the Britain we all treasure. This is what the Government support and will continue to support because it is a key element of the kind of society we want to build. I have no doubt whatever that the world of faith and those who follow the true teaching and the true meanings of a peaceful faith will continue to do good, as has been the case for centuries, and will rise to the challenges of today in providing hope to millions, in particular in ensuring unstinting service to humanity.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. There was a wide range of contributions, some very analytical and thoughtful and others which were very deeply felt about particular issues. I shall not mention noble Lords by name, but I thank the Minister for his clear personal commitment to this area.
A few noble Lords were worried about the words “religion and belief” in the title. I understand that, but the commission was advised that all the most authoritative documents in this field now use that phrase, which is why it was chosen.
A number of noble Lords mentioned the positive role religion plays in our society at both local and national level. That was good to hear. Equally, there was a wide range of criticisms of the role of religion in education and, in particular from the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, about its attitude to same-sex relationships. Justified criticism of religion should be encouraged for the sake of religion itself. It is quite unequivocally in the interests of religion that justifiable criticism be encouraged.
I do not believe that humanism—many noble Lords are humanists—should be seen purely in negative terms as a criticism of religion. The word “humanist” goes back to renaissance times when all those who designated themselves humanists were Christians. For them, it meant not just a revival of classical learning but a belief in human flourishing. I suggest that the great national gathering recommended by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, which no doubt he would like to take place in Lincoln next year, should be a gathering not just of people with religious views but should include people from the British Humanist Society, as 25.1% of people in the country now define themselves as having no religion and many of those define themselves as humanists.
We have talked a lot about trying to build common ground between religions, but there is a need in our society to build common ground between religious believers and those who have no religion but regard themselves as humanists. This is particularly important at the moment because, as Michael Sandel has pointed out, for the past 30 years, our society has been dominated by a combination of social and market liberalism. In other words, people have believed only in one value: unfettered individual choice. This is because we lack any proper concept of the common good and what it is to be a good society. As he said, if as liberals we are frightened of getting into that debate because we disagree about it,
“Fundamentalists rush in where liberals fear to tread”.
I very much hope that this great national gathering will invite humanists and that we will be able to work at getting a much stronger, thicker understanding of what it is to live in a good society.
Scotland: Smith Commission
(10 years ago)
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The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. The Statement is as follows.
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a Statement to the House about the further devolution process in Scotland and the publication of the heads of agreement resulting from Lord Smith’s five-party talks. As the Prime Minister has already said this morning, we back the agreement and its recommendations and will produce draft legislation in January. The referendum on independence held on 18 September 2014 saw Scotland vote decisively to remain within our UK family of nations of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, backed by the strength, security and stability of the United Kingdom. The turnout across Scotland was nearly 85% and more than 2 million people made a positive choice for Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom.
During the referendum campaign, the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition made a joint commitment to deliver more powers to the Scottish Parliament. The Smith commission, chaired by Lord Smith of Kelvin, was up and running on 19 September. Lord Smith convened cross-party talks to reach agreement on the proposals for further devolution to Scotland. This process has been thorough and extensive. The party representatives were drawn from the five main political parties in Scotland; the first time ever that all five have participated in a devolution process. I would echo the comments of Lord Smith himself in the foreword to his report. He said:
‘This agreement is, in itself, an unprecedented achievement. It demanded compromise from all of the parties. In some cases that meant moving to devolve greater powers than they had previously committed to, while for other parties it meant accepting the outcome would fall short of their ultimate ambitions. It shows that, however difficult, our political leaders can come together, work together, and reach agreement with one another’.
In preparing the report, Lord Smith heard from a wide range of Scottish civic institutions and members of the public. Over 400 submissions were received from organisations and groups and over 18,000 submissions, including e-mails, letters and signatures to petitions, from people right across Scotland. The Smith commission has today produced a comprehensive heads of agreement ahead of the St Andrew’s Day deadline contained in the timetable set out. This is a significant achievement and is an historic moment for Scotland. I would like to thank Lord Smith and the party representatives for their work. They have worked hard against a challenging timetable covering an enormous area of ground. This work will deliver a substantial package of new powers to the Scottish Parliament. The heads of agreement provides for a durable but responsive constitutional settlement for Scotland within the United Kingdom. It gives greater financial responsibility to the Scottish Parliament with an updated fiscal framework for Scotland, consistent with the overall UK fiscal framework.
For the first time, over 50% of the money spent by the Scottish Government will be funded by the Scottish Government. This is an important step which builds on the measures brought forward by this Government in the Scotland Act 2012 and further increases the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament to the people of Scotland. The recommendations provide for key welfare measures to be designed by and delivered in Scotland. This will give the Scottish Parliament the tools—and the responsibility—to tackle a range of issues with specific consideration of local circumstances, including those related to social care, long-term unemployment and housing, while continuing to benefit from the strength and stability of the UK-wide system. The recommendations build on the already significant powers of the Scottish Parliament in social justice and a range of other policy areas. Together, these recommendations give greater responsibility for more decisions affecting Scotland to be made in the Scottish Parliament and paid for by revenue raised by the Scottish Parliament.
Further devolution is just one part of this story. People in Scotland were unequivocally clear on 18 September that Scotland should retain the security of being part of our United Kingdom. The Smith commission’s remit was clear—to set out proposals for further devolution within the United Kingdom—and this remit was signed up to by all parties participating in the process, including the Scottish Government. The conclusions reached by the parties ensure a set of proposals that do not cause detriment to the United Kingdom as a whole or any of its constituent parts. The Government are committed to ensuring that Scotland and the whole of the United Kingdom continue to prosper from our single domestic market, our social union and the strength that comes from the pooling and sharing of risks. People in Scotland voted on 18 September for the jobs and opportunities that are created by being part of a larger United Kingdom with one currency, no borders and more money to spend on public services in Scotland. People in Scotland want to keep the advantages of a UK pound, UK pensions, UK Armed Forces and a strong UK voice in the world. The package that has been announced today allows that to happen.
As the Prime Minister has already made clear, the Government back the heads of agreement and its recommendations and we will get on with producing draft legislation. The draft clauses will be produced by Burns Night, 25 January, meeting the next phase in our commitment to the people of Scotland. That work begins today. A team has been set up to bring together lead officials in the Scotland Office, HM Treasury, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Cabinet Office. This team will work closely with all lead policy departments within the United Kingdom Government and the team will remain in place ready to deliver a Bill in the UK Parliament following the UK General Election. To support the preparation of the draft legislation I have invited key Scottish stakeholders representing a wide range of different sectors to form a stakeholder group. I will provide further details of the membership and terms of reference of the group in due course, but it is my intention that it will support the Government’s work translating the heads of agreement into the draft legislation that we will publish by 25 January.
As Lord Smith said in the foreword to his report:
‘Through this process I have worked closely with people who can argue passionately with one another while sharing an equal concern and love for their country. I would like to thank them all for their input, challenge and support. I hope that, in the end, they can work together, maintain their energy and use it to create a Scotland which is even stronger and even better’.
Having a more powerful Scottish Parliament inside a strong United Kingdom is the best outcome for the people of Scotland. This is what we voted for on 18 September. Today’s report is an affirmation of the vow that was made in September. It is an historic moment for Scotland. The cause of home rule has been at the heart of Scottish politics since the days of Gladstone. This agreement provides a modern blueprint for Scottish home rule within our strong United Kingdom. Home rule for Scotland can open the door to constitutional reform for the whole of the UK. We can deliver home rule all round”.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for advance sight of the Statement and join him and the Secretary of State in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, for his work and for this report. I pay tribute to the right honourable member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, whose proposals during the referendum set us on the way to delivering this historic agreement. Anyone who witnessed the towering statement by Gordon Brown that day will always remember it.
As the Secretary of State said in the other place, this is an historic day for Scotland. Ten weeks ago the people of Scotland, in overwhelming numbers, confirmed Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom. That mandate was received from the people of Scotland, but it is not to say that we should not take into account the people who voted yes. However, it should always be remembered that the people voted for Scotland’s place in the UK. It was also a decision made on the highest turnout ever seen in this country. It was a vote for change: a change in the way Scotland is governed; a change that will see more decisions taken closer to people; but safer, faster and better change as part of the UK. This is a promise kept and an agreement delivered. The Labour Party was very clear that it would honour the promises made during the referendum. This has been achieved in a co-operative and constructive process, working in the spirit of consensus that people across Scotland had the right to expect. That is why we wholly endorse the recommendations of the Smith commission and we give our guarantee to the people of Scotland that, if we are in government after May, we will legislate for these powers in our first Queen’s Speech.
This agreement will see more powers over tax, welfare and jobs transferred to the Scottish Parliament. We have secured guarantees over the voting rights of Scottish MPs on the Budget and on the continuation of the Barnett formula. We believe this provides the best deal for the people of Scotland. The agreement also means £3 billion of welfare spending at Holyrood. This is an extensive package of powers, which many people said could not and would not be delivered. Today’s deal is in fact more radical and goes further than many had anticipated. Very importantly, it also respects the outcome of the referendum in ensuring that Scotland still benefits from pooling and sharing across the UK.
On this side of the House, we believe that the principle we have worked to today—pushing power closer to people—should be followed for the rest of the country. That is why we will continue to call for a constitutional convention to be established to consider how this can be achieved, working with all the nations and regions of the UK.
Now that agreement has been reached, will the Minister tell the House how the recommendations of the Smith commission will be implemented, what the timetable will be and how noble Lords will be involved in the next stage of the process as the draft clauses are produced? We want to know how the timetable will be put through both Houses. Given the success of cross-party working, will he tell the House how the parties involved in the Smith commission process will be involved in this next stage?
As the noble Lord, Lord Smith, pointed out in his statement this morning, these additional powers will also mean that the Scottish Parliament’s own processes will need to be strengthened to enable it to hold that Government to account. What consultation will there now be with the Scottish Parliament to ensure that it is well prepared for this transfer of powers? Lastly, the noble Lord, Lord Smith, also recommended closer working between the Scottish Parliament and Government and this Parliament and the UK Government. How do the Government intend to take forward this recommendation?
For the past two years our country has divided along yes and no lines. As Scotland’s five political parties come together, today marks an important moment for us to look forward. I am confident that Labour will deliver these new powers in our first Queen’s Speech next May. More power is now in Scotland’s hands, and it is for all of us to work together to create the better country we want.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his remarks, his welcome of this and the commitment of the Labour Party to the implementation of the heads of agreement and recommendations. I pick up what he said about this having been a co-operative and constructive process; that is very much to be welcomed, and I know that there are those in your Lordships’ House today who have the T-shirt from the Scottish constitutional convention and took part in the Calman commission. What was missing from both of those was the engagement of all the political parties in Scotland. It is therefore significant that this is an agreement in which all five parties represented in the Scottish Parliament were involved.
The noble Lord asked me about the timetable for implementation. As has been made clear, there is a commitment that the draft clauses will be available by 25 January, Burns night. The Prime Minister indicated today, and the Secretary of State indicated in the other place, that that is a timetable we intend to stick by. The Secretary of State also indicated that he intends to set up a stakeholder group, which presumably would include political parties but go beyond the political parties for involvement. He said that that group should support the Government’s work in translating the heads of agreement, which I hope again will involve the parties.
I certainly share the view of closer working between Governments and between Parliaments. The Calman commission did a bit of work on that, so some thought has already been given to it. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Smith, also recommended that the Speaker of the House of Commons and the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament should meet to address some of the issues, not least regarding an explanation of what the powers of the respective Parliaments are. Public education and information is required on that. I think I am right in saying that the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament has already set in train a report or some mechanism to look at the way in which the Scottish Executive—the Scottish Government— can be more accountable to the Scottish Parliament. It is also worth noting that, whatever seems to play out on the public stage day in and day out, there is very good co-operation between officials in the Scottish Government and the UK Government, and between Ministers, over a whole range of issues. There is a lot of good work to build on.
Lord Higgins (Con)
My Lords, this important report brings forward further proposals implementing the three commitments made by the three main party leaders in the final days—some may think that they were somewhat chaotic or even rather panicky days—of the referendum campaign. Does my noble friend agree, though, that the crucial sentence in this report states that,
“rules will ensure that neither the Scottish nor UK Governments will lose or gain financially from the act of transferring a power”?
That is very important but, if that is so, where is the point in transferring some of the VAT revenue to Scotland if it will then be offset by a change in the block grant, which is the obvious implication of that sentence? The other important sentence states:
“The Barnett Formula will continue to be used to determine the remaining block grant”.
Lord Barnett himself said that that formula was defective. Indeed, if it continues in the way in which the report suggests, that will effectively solidify the situation embodied in the Barnett formula, which I believe is unfair for UK taxpayers. We ought not simply to solidify that position.
The Scots Parliament would be given power over income tax rates and allowances. Why should that be any different in Scotland from the UK if it has no implication for the allocation of resources? There is no real reason to believe that.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, my noble friend raises a number of important issues regarding the tax proposals in the heads of agreement. He is right to draw attention to the fact that there should be no detriment as a result of the decision to devolve further power. What is intended is that at the point of transfer, the value of the tax receipts that have been transferred will be deducted from the block grant. Thereafter, it is a matter for the Scottish Parliament to determine the tax rates and how the books are balanced. Under the Azores judgment in the European Court of Justice we cannot do anything other than that. With regard to VAT, it is obviously in the interest of the Scottish Government to propose policies that will raise the buoyancy of the Scottish economy so that VAT receipts would be greater. Likewise—depending on how well their policies go—the more economic activity, the greater the income tax receipts that they will receive. Of course, the counter is also the same: if they screw it up, the tax receipts are liable to be less and there will be consequences for that, which is an important point of accountability.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, as we make progress with Scottish devolution, as we consider the clauses and as these meetings take place, do we not all agree that it will be understandable if resentment grows in England because of the English democratic deficit? If we can agree the vow effectively overnight, and if the Smith commission can be set up so quickly, why is it that the parties—the Liberal Democrats, the Conservatives and the Labour Party—cannot get together and get the UK constitutional convention up and running as quickly as possible so that we can look at the situation in the whole of the UK in a comprehensive and holistic way?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I know that the noble Lord has regularly put forward the case for a UK-wide constitutional convention. As I said when your Lordships’ House debated these issues on 29 October, the Government will consider proposals for the establishment of such a convention. While it is important that we debate these things, it is also important that we engage with the wider public. Let me make it clear that today’s heads of agreements should not in any way be held up by any constitutional convention, but I am sure that there is no shortage of issues that could be sent to such a convention.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart (LD)
My Lords, bearing in mind that the Smith commission had only 11 weeks in which to prepare its report, the outcome should be regarded as a useful first step towards further devolution to the Scottish Parliament and Government. Do Her Majesty’s Government agree, however, that since its proposals cannot be enacted before the general election in May, and since the commission itself referred to,
“the additional variability and uncertainty that further tax and spending devolution will introduce into the budgeting process”,
it would be wise for the three parties, in support of what the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has said, now to set up a commission to appoint a convention involving the public on the future constitution of the United Kingdom? This would enable consideration and analysis of this report to be given by those affected in order to seek a real consensus across the United Kingdom on the Smith commission’s recommendations.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, as I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, there is clearly an agenda that could go to a UK-wide constitutional convention. It is certainly not the policy of the Government—nor, I think, of the Labour Party—that the matters in the Smith commission report should be the subject of a subsequent constitutional convention. If we were to do that, we would be accused of breaking the vow. It is not our intention to do that; the intention is to have the draft clauses by 25 January, and that will pave the way for commitments in respect of party manifestos and for legislation to be pretty well ready for the incoming Government after the May election. I know that my noble friend has regularly put forward the case for a wider UK constitutional convention. As I said, and as the Leader of the House of Commons said in a debate on 14 October, there is merit in that idea, given that the British constitution is a living entity. No one will pretend in the coming months that it has reached a perfect form, whatever we decide on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)
My Lords, while the fact that there is an agreement is certainly welcome, the content of the agreement will perhaps prove that allowing 11 weeks to make decisions of this nature is not necessarily the best strategy. I think that in the longer term everybody involved may come to regret putting all the eggs in the income tax basket rather than looking at a spread of taxes.
I want to ask two specific questions of the Advocate-General today. First, given that the assignation of VAT is not the devolution of a power to vary tax, will he, or the Secretary of State, publish the calculation that leads to the claim that 50% of taxation is now devolved to the Scottish Parliament? I cannot see how that calculation has been made. Secondly—partly endorsing the points made by my noble friend Lord McAvoy—the four additional points made by the noble Lord, Lord Smith, in his introduction to the report seem to be almost as important as the actual devolution of more powers. Will the Government give an unequivocal statement of support for those four additional points and do everything they can to support the Scottish Government, the Scottish Parliament and, indeed, Scottish civic society to ensure that they are implemented alongside the new powers that are now on the way?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I hope that we will be able to set out some infographics—if that is the current “in” word—showing how the tax take of the Scottish Parliament will relate to spending, bearing in mind that the spending of the Scottish Parliament is going to go up as a result of these proposals. The denominator is an important factor in that. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, on the TV broadcast of his announcement this morning. I hope that nobody is going to ask me to remind them what the four points were, but, like the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, I thought that they were all very pertinent. They were points that had been made by many people in your Lordships’ House and by others. The one that sticks out in my mind—because it has been a theme in a number of our debates—is the importance of decentralisation generally: that to devolve power from Westminster to Edinburgh is only part of the story. There has to be further decentralisation within Scotland because the last seven years have seen considerable centralisation within Scotland.
Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)
My Lords, this is a very important Statement, which is worthy of longer consideration than a short question period late on a Thursday. I hope that the Leader of the House recognises that we expect a very full debate on this matter in this House.
Will the Minister reply to what I describe as the “Dorking question”? If the Member for Glasgow Central in the other place, who has no control over the taxation affecting his constituents, none the less has the power to affect the taxation of my former constituents in Dorking, how will this be reconciled with any democratic process? It is a topsy-turvy situation. In the 18th century, the great cry was, “No taxation without representation”; the cry today would be, “Without representation, no taxation”.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My noble friend makes a point that a number of people and commentators have been making. When we had our debate, my noble friend Lord Lexden said that in the days of Joseph Chamberlain and Gladstone that very issue was being debated in the Irish context. We have gone beyond the stage of saying that the best answer to the so-called West Lothian question was not to ask it. Those days are past, and the Prime Minister said this morning that there will be a publication of proposals on what is now called “English votes for English laws”. I resist using the acronym EVEL, because that might sometimes be a misrepresentation, but a publication of proposals will be out before Christmas and we will wait to see it. It is a proper question and a fair one, but some of the answers are not entirely straightforward.
Lord Richard (Lab)
My Lords, I should like to ask the Minister a question in a slightly different Celtic context. He will recognise that detailed proposals are being produced for Scotland. He will also recognise that, in that event, the situation in Wales cannot be allowed to continue as it is at present. I draw attention to two points. First, do the Government have any proposals that they wish to make to the people and the Government of Wales in respect of tax powers being devolved to Wales on a similar basis to those being devolved to Scotland? Secondly, how on earth can the Government justify saying that the Barnett formula should continue to apply? I listened to the Secretary of State making his Statement in the Commons this morning and he said at one stage, “Well, nobody has been able to think of anything better”. Would the Minister care to pass on to the Secretary of State the report of your Lordships’ committee on the Barnett formula? He will find that we went into it in great detail and produced an alternative that, in my submission at any rate, was clear, cogent and practicable, and it would have been effective. For the Government now to accept that the Barnett formula should continue seems to me absolutely preposterous.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I know that the noble Lord is well aware that the Wales Bill, which had a Third Reading in your Lordships’ House on Monday of this week, makes provision for the devolution of tax powers to Wales. They are subject to a referendum, but of course Scotland had a referendum on the principle of tax powers back in 1997. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales has also indicated that he will produce a reserved powers framework for Wales by St David’s Day. I think someone said that it was just as well that St George’s Day is during “purdah” or we would have yet another commitment for England.
On the question of the Barnett formula, the leaders of the three UK political parties made it clear that the formula will continue; but with regard to Wales—and I am aware of the importance of this, having been the spokesman for the Wales Office in your Lordships’ House for two years—the United Kingdom and Welsh Governments have established a joint process to review relative levels of funding for Wales and England in advance of each spending review. That process is not affected by the commitments contained in the Smith commission proposals.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that, while of course promises given by leaders must be honoured, and we accept that clauses—which I hope will be debated in this House in detail—will be produced by 25 January, there is a real danger in deadline democracy? There is no situation in politics or any other aspect of life that is not made worse by panic.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I heed what my noble friend says. It is also fair to say that much in the heads of agreement that has emerged today is based on previous work. In my party’s case, it was done by a commission under the chairmanship of my right honourable friend Sir Menzies Campbell. Proposals came from the work done by the Labour Party. The Conservative Party produced proposals through a committee chaired by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde. So the Smith commission had a considerable volume of work available to it to help to formulate its proposals. My noble friend, and my noble friend Lord Baker, mentioned the opportunity to debate. My noble friend the Leader of the House is here, and the understandable wish for further debate will certainly be taken on board by the usual channels.
Lord Soley (Lab)
My Lords, this is a very clear Statement by the Minister on the way forward for Scotland. Does he accept that this also provides a great opportunity for all four parts of the United Kingdom to look at how we organise our government, both devolved government between the four parts of the United Kingdom and government of the United Kingdom itself? That is why so many of us say that there needs to be a constitutional convention. If we do not take it forward in that way, there is a real risk that we will drift into making short-term amendments to our constitutional arrangements which do not solve some of the problems that exist not just within England but within Wales and between the four parts of the United Kingdom. I know that the Minister is treading a fine line here, but I strongly urge that a constitutional convention is considered as taking an opportunity, rather than leaving the risk that we begin to make back-of-a-fag-packet amendments.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Soley, who I know has had a strong interest in these issues and how they affect not only Scotland but other parts of the United Kingdom. I repeat that the Government have made it clear that they will consider proposals for the establishment of a convention. As my noble friend Lord McConnell, who is sitting beside the noble Lord, knows, a convention is not necessarily a quick answer, but nor should it be an excuse for kicking things into the long grass.
Lord Shipley (LD)
I ask the Minister a specific question about air passenger duty. I refer to paragraphs 86 and 95 of the Smith commission report. Paragraph 86 gives the Scottish Parliament the power to charge tax on air passengers leaving Scottish airports, or it can decide to abolish it. That is the existing policy under the Scottish Parliament. However, the abolition of APD in Scotland but not in England would give a huge competitive advantage in the cost of air fares to those flying from Scotland compared to those flying from the north of England. I wonder whether, in line with the no-detriment principle in paragraph 95, the Government have any plans, should Scotland abolish APD, to abolish APD across the north of England.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My noble friend makes an interesting point, which I am sure my colleagues in the Treasury will note. I recall considering APD during the Calman commission. First, there is no guarantee. My noble friend says that the current policy of the Scottish Government is to abolish it or change the rates, but if they reduce one tax, they have to find the money for some of their spending commitments, which are not small, somewhere else. Therefore, I do not think we can necessarily be sure how that power, when devolved, will be used. Many other factors will come into a passenger’s choice of airport other than APD. If one was travelling, let us say, from Hull, I am not sure that one would want to take on the extra journey to go to Edinburgh, bypassing Newcastle, to start a journey. APD is only one part of a passenger’s choice.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, if my noble friend Lord Maclennan is right and this is the first step towards devolution—I must say that I thought that we had had a few already and that there are more to come—are not those steps all a ratchet turning in one direction, which is towards the independence of Scotland? Secondly, if we are granting the right to raise income tax in Scotland and, incidentally, corporation tax in Northern Ireland, does that not completely undermine the single currency of the United Kingdom?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I do not believe that this is a one-way street to independence—far from it. The majority of the Scottish people on 18 September clearly indicated that they wanted to be part of the United Kingdom. The terms of reference of the Smith commission were that these proposals should be consistent with the integrity of the United Kingdom. The principles agreed by members of the commission were that the proposals had to be in the context of a United Kingdom.
That leads into the second part of my noble friend’s question. With regard to Scotland’s fiscal framework and borrowing powers, the report states:
“Borrowing powers should be set within an overall Scottish fiscal framework and subject to fiscal rules agreed by the Scottish and UK Governments based on clear economic principles, supporting evidence and thorough assessment of the relevant economic situation”.
Therefore, considerable tax powers, including on income tax, the definition of a taxpayer, personal allowances, taxation of savings and investment income, will all still be the responsibility of the United Kingdom Parliament. The proposals have to be considered in the context of the remit that was given: to be consistent with maintaining our United Kingdom.
National Lottery: 20th Anniversary
Baroness Rawlings
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the National Lottery in the United Kingdom on its 20th anniversary.
Baroness Rawlings (Con)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to return to a topic that I spoke on for the first time in your Lordships’ House 20 years ago. I am conscious of the wealth of expertise and knowledge that noble Lords bring to the subject, and I look forward to their contributions today.
The National Lottery has undoubtedly been a huge success, operated successfully by Camelot since its inception, making a tangible difference to organisations and communities across our country, protecting and enhancing our heritage, and supporting the arts and sport since it began in 1994. The fact that it exists and has had such a positive, enduring impact is down to the foresight and leadership of Sir John Major. In a recent article, Nigel Farndale compared Sir John to the Cosimo de’ Medici of our age. We all have reason to be very grateful to him.
The National Lottery’s record of success is impressive by anyone’s standards. With 28% of its take going to good causes, that has totalled more than £32 billion since 1994—a phenomenal sum. A few facts demonstrate the scale of that success: on average, each week, more than £33 million is raised for good causes; more than 450,000 individual awards have been made across the United Kingdom; £12.6 billion has been paid to the Exchequer in lottery duty; those who have benefited include 700 playing fields, 1,400 museums and galleries, more than 37,000 heritage projects, from grand ones such as Tate Modern to funding 90% of Great Britain’s Olympic 2012 medallists—and many more.
How has this changed society? We should not forget that what is now part of our national weekly life was not without controversy when the idea was advanced in the early 1990s. Many at the time argued that for several decades, we had had smaller lotteries. We also faced the risk of competition from European lotteries and that our National Lottery would change society. It has, but not in the negative way that many predicted. A piece in this week’s FT described it as possibly the most successful example of crowdfunding ever. I confess that for many years, I looked forward to a lottery ticket from Father Christmas in my stocking. We are given the opportunity to dream about what we might do if we won and, through millions of individual ticket purchases, as a society we have achieved a revolution in the funding of good causes.
With success come challenges. In a legitimate desire to broaden access, we must make sure that, in increasing appeal, we do not create a crude market price that does not fully capture the true, often intangible, value. The popularity and increasing awareness of the Heritage Lottery Fund, which will distribute £375 million next year, has also driven up the number and quality of bids, meaning that only 35% will be funded, compared to 70% in 2006.
The filling-out of an application can be a labour-intensive and costly business. I encourage all those bodies distributing money from the National Lottery to reflect on how they might make their membership and decision-making process more transparent, simpler and more user friendly, without losing rigour and financial assurance. Much of the success and popularity of the National Lottery has been down to the combination of a chance to win and dream, the fact that buying a ticket helps to fund good causes—not, I repeat, not, to its being a substitute for core spending on such things as education and roads—and to the simple fact that there is only one National Lottery.
I feel very strongly that the National Lottery should remain true to these founding principles, that it should remain the only true national lottery, and that, despite some of the changes made by the previous Government, it should hold true to the additionality principle. As the Heritage Lottery Fund and the Big Lottery Fund look towards future funding priorities, I counsel them to resist mission creep. With regard to society lotteries, perhaps more commonly seen as charity raffles, they can and should exist alongside the National Lottery, and they do fantastic work. However, I support the view of the Minister, who has acknowledged that careful consideration and wider consultation on this issue need to be undertaken.
Similarly, while I know that the scale of the National Lottery leads many to suggest it is invulnerable to competition, I feel that the Health Lottery has begun to blur boundaries. I am wary of the precedent it sets. My counsel is one of caution: considerable good is already being done by the National Lottery and charity raffles or lotteries, and we should avoid anything that could harm that.
I conclude by returning to my speech on 17 November 1994:
“The National Lottery is expected to provide huge additional resources for our national heritage, the arts, sport and charities. I agree with my noble friend Lord Rothschild who said recently that the National Lottery Act 1993 could easily overtake the National Heritage Act 1980 as being the most important piece of legislation in the heritage field since the Second World War. In boosting our arts, heritage and sport, we are underpinning our culture, which for most of us is the core of our identity and a source of security”.—[Official Report, 17/11/94; col. 64.]
I am proud that those words, spoken in hope in 1994, have been borne out. In an age when many people and groups seek to highlight those things that divide us as a country, we are reminded of the ability of culture and sport, our shared heritage, to transcend differences and bring us together, and that so much more unites us as a nation than divides us. The contribution of the National Lottery to that cause is something of which we, as a country, can and should be immensely proud. We must make certain that it continues for many decades to come.
Lord Addington (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for bringing this subject to the House. It is a very appropriate one for us to discuss, particularly on this anniversary of two decades of the National Lottery.
When we cast our minds back, we should remember why we had a National Lottery: we were failing to fund important parts of our society and structure properly from the centre. Voluntary contributions were not doing it. Private contributions and sponsorship were not doing it. We had to do something else.
In this area, sport is the activity in which I have been most keenly involved. We had an infrastructure for sport at grass-roots level that was effectively falling apart. This is probably the most effective sticking-plaster, in government terms, you have ever seen. It has gone in there and become something solid. It has given a structure, support and point of reference that it is almost impossible to see us doing without, because finding government money to replace it is something we cannot see happening. I cannot see the Department for Education taking over those sports facilities and that structure which happened outside it, as it was supposed to do before and always failed to do. It never did enough, because there was always another priority that was that little bit politically sexier, which had to be done first. When sport was within the Department for Education, you suddenly discovered that its priority was a new literacy scheme. It usually got that wrong as well. However, the National Lottery came in and gave us a new pillar on which to build these things. The same is true of the arts and heritage.
We must never forget why we introduced the National Lottery. We brought it in to give a structural point whereby funding is generated by the general public, effectively on a voluntary basis, so that they will say, “This is for you”.
Having said that, the success stories that go with it are wonderful. Going back to sport, the improvement in funding for the elite level is almost unanswerable. That said, I say: change the way you fund sport, because you are not fair to team sports. I would also say: yes, you have succeeded; now, be brave and do something else. There will always be discussion about how we go forward with our heritage projects. Now there is greater awareness that we have enough stately homes and that we should also preserve industrial heritage. All this has proceeded from this great central fund. It is something we must do.
These become very short speeches if you just say, “Yes, it’s great”, and do not look to future problems. The noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, is the not the first and she will not be the last person to speak about the introduction of the Health Lottery. My statement when I contributed a Starred Question in this House was to the effect that if it is not against the law, it is against the spirit of the law—something, I discovered, that has been said again. Can my noble friend give us some idea about what the Government are going to do to prevent, going with the Health Lottery, the sports lottery, the heritage lottery, the “Let’s pick up litter lottery”, using the same legislation and the same way forward? That is what we are worried about: the idea that this central pillar of funding that we have built and that we cannot see being done somewhere else, gets changed. If these lotteries are to come in, what responsibility will they have to the causes that are dependent on them? That is a very fair question. Will UK Sport be guaranteed the future funding it needs if we have another lottery that starts to hack into its funding stream? We must hear the answer to that. If the legislation needs to be changed we know how to do it—indeed, we are apt to change legislation rather too quickly. However, making sure that we have this guarantee of lines of progress is essential. If the Health Lottery is prepared to play ball, to become involved and to take on some of this responsibility, some of my objections start to be removed. If not, my objections start to grow. How are we going to bring this together?
Having dealt with that central point, will the Minister give me some reassurance about the eternal temptation for all Governments to cut the pie again and again, and to rebrand it? We have seen this in the past and there will always be a temptation to say that we should go on, saying, “We’re making quite a lot of money here, let’s put some more somewhere else”.
This is an argument that has gone on throughout the history of the lottery. I forget how many good causes there were supposed to be at first but then we stuck another one in. I think the noble Baroness was putting up five fingers but I cannot remember exactly how many there were at first. It becomes a blur. There has been a constant argument about how it is done and redistributed. What have the Government done to make sure that there is some consensus about what happens here? Unless we are all involved in that discussion, there may be a new and wonderful scheme that sounds terribly good, and for which you get a little applause, and then you realise that you have done damage to the other things. You will also have cut off the necessity for other bits of government and public funding to be channelled to do that job in the future. The National Lottery finds it difficult to give up a responsibility once it has had it. If my noble friend can give me some assurance on that, I would feel more comfortable.
We probably have, in the National Lottery, something that has done a good job, but I feel that there was an admission of failure when it came in to do that good job. What we can say to Camelot is, “That’s 20 years well done, but there’s no guarantee”. If we can make sure that the National Lottery, under whoever funds it, has this guarantee of funding from this one source, I will be slightly more comfortable. We must make sure that we, first, say what the responsibilities are in the future and, secondly, give an absolute assurance about the process of discussion and negotiation we will have before we expand the responsibilities of that type of funding. I would then feel much more comfortable on this subject.
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, it is a complete privilege to speak in this debate. If there were a medal competition, the National Lottery would certainly be a serious podium finisher for me. I thank my noble friend Lady Rawlings for initiating this debate. She covered the ground in glorious Technicolor. It has been 20 years, and what a journey. There were many who said that it would not last and some who said that it would undermine the moral fabric of our nation. Twenty years on, it is tremendous to see that both the lottery and the moral fabric—and moral fibre—of our nation are in rude health.
I would like to speak about my experience of the National Lottery as a recipient, as a distributor and as an administrator. While I was competing for Great Britain, the lottery came in midway through my career. Until that point, success happened but it happened largely in spite of, rather than because of, any direct support. The Sports Aid Foundation did an excellent job but it was as nothing, compared to what the National Lottery promised.
When it first arrived, funding was limited to capital projects. There was nervousness about revenue funding and direct awards to athletes, which was understandable with such a new lottery. But when we came back from Atlanta in 1996, it was clear that moves were afoot to get that revenue funding directly to athletes, to enable world-class performance through world-class services being wrapped around us as athletes. The lottery athlete personal award enabled that physio care, that sports medicine or that biomechanics—whatever we needed—to be a reality. It was such a change and it was phenomenal to know that through being part of sport before and after the National Lottery arrived. It is fantastic to see now that athletes starting their careers take sport lottery funding for granted, as they should. They are athletes and their job is to perform; that is what the athlete’s personal award is about.
I was then lucky enough to be on the board at UK Sport, to drive a really tight ship with low costs—the lowest cost of any lottery distributor—and to get that money out of the door to sport. It is the national governing bodies and the athletes that give the performances which win gold, silver and bronze medals. Our job at UK Sport was to ensure efficient, effective distribution of that funding with the right level of assurance, as your Lordships would expect with such funds.
I then went to the Paralympic Games to administer a serious grant of tens of millions from the Olympic lottery distributor. Look at east London: at that park and those stadia of concrete, steel and glass. A new community was developed as a result of significant National Lottery funding through the Olympic lottery distributor. The Paralympic Games could not have happened in the way that they did without the Olympic lottery distributor. To connect the lottery brand to the Paralympics was fantastic—to know that it was on board, enabling us to have a sell-out and to broadcast the Games to hundreds of millions around the world. It enabled us to have a Paralympic Games that were a games-changer.
I do not want to be the spectre at the feast, or to draw a long shadow, but I feel that I must for a moment mention what happened to the lottery under the previous Government and the disgraceful diverting of funds into areas of the public sector which were never intended to be the destination for lottery funding. Health and education are good causes; of course they are. It had a fair amount of popularity; of course it would. It was obvious that it would but was that the right thing to do with lottery funds? Was that what the National Lottery was set up for? Absolutely not, and it is right that the percentages for those initial good causes have been put back exactly to where they were always intended to be.
So to the man who was the father of the National Lottery, and who has already been mentioned by my noble friend Lady Rawlings. What courage and commitment there was from Sir John Major, and what a bold and brave decision. Now, 20 years on, it seems an obvious and natural part of the United Kingdom but his courage and commitment—the bravery he showed in having the political courage to take that decision —were absolutely superb. I remember talking to Sir John years later. He said that when the lottery was launched, he went to Victoria Station after the launch and bought some tickets. He then spent the rest of that week in a cold sweat, thinking not just of what would happen if he won but how he would possibly explain to Norma and the family why he would not be able to claim the prize. Ah, Sir John: heavy is the head that wears a prime ministerial crown.
What careers there have been, launched off the back of the lottery. There was Mystic Meg and who would have thought that somebody would have the title “The voice of the balls”? Here’s to you, Alan. Add to that the original catchphrase or slogan, “It could be you”. For many thousands of people—in terms of multimillion -pound prizes, hundred thousand-pound prizes, scratchcards and so on—it has been them. More important, though, for sport, the arts, heritage, for charities, for the cultural foundations of our nation, it has been you, it is you and will continue to be you for decades to come.
Lord Smith of Finsbury (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I should begin by declaring an interest as chairman of the Wordsworth Trust in Cumbria, which has been the recipient of a number of grants that were very handsomely and generously provided by the Heritage Lottery Fund. As the shadow Secretary of State, I was present 20 years ago at the Tower of London when the National Lottery was launched. I join heartily in the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, whom I congratulate on choosing this topic for debate this afternoon, in her tribute to the former Prime Minister, John Major. I am not sure that he has all the attributes of Cosimo de’ Medici, but certainly, in conceiving and bringing to birth the National Lottery, he gave significant service to this country and I trust that it will be part of what history remembers him for with admiration.
Over those 20 years, the lottery has made an incalculable difference to our nation’s life: to arts, sport, charities, voluntary organisations, heritage, museums and the countryside. Here I shall differ, just for a moment, from the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. There was a change some 17 to 18 years ago in the number of causes supported by the National Lottery. That change was possible because so many more people were playing the lottery than had originally been anticipated, so the funds were there to enable an expansion in the range of good causes that it was possible to support, while not substituting—on this I absolutely agree with all the previous three speakers—the principle of additionality, which is that the lottery should not be supporting things that ought to be part of normal, government-supported activity. That is absolutely crucial. If we were able to extend the lottery into some areas related to fields of education, health and the environment, those were things that it was not possible to support by straightforward, direct government grant. That should always be at the heart of what the lottery is all about.
The way that the lottery was initially established did lead to one or two perversities in the early days. The first of those was a tendency to support buildings rather than people or activities. That has long since been put right. There is now a wide range of activities that the National Lottery supports, and rightly so. Indeed, applications now are looked at in the round, not just the capital construction work that is proposed but, alongside that, the activities that will be generated, the income that will come from that and the costs that will arise. The whole package is looked at and encouraged by the lottery distributors.
One of the other perversities that emerged in early days—and I think that we have not yet quite got this right—is that the process of applying for lottery funding, as the noble Baroness alluded to, can be difficult, complex and a hassle. For those who are not well advised, not well heeled and unused to putting in applications, that can make for problems. It is one of the reasons why some of the geographical distribution of lottery largesse has been a bit skewed in some parts of the country. When I was Secretary of State we tried to put that right by dreaming up what we called the “Brass for Barnsley” scheme. We earmarked a portion of funding that we said would go to Barnsley. We then assisted all the voluntary, charitable and third sector organisations in Barnsley to put in applications by making available facilitators and co-ordinators to ensure that they were able to put in the complex applications that were needed. The result was spectacular. A flow of applications for incredibly good schemes came forward and we were able to make sure that Barnsley got its fair share of lottery funding across all the various lottery distributors. We need more such schemes. We need to enable and facilitate organisations in some of the most deprived and worthy areas of this country to put in applications and to be successful in doing so.
As Secretary of State and chairman of the Millennium Commission, I was very proud to see many of the spectacularly successful projects that we have now in this country coming to fruition, whether it was the British Museum Great Court, the breathtaking Tate Modern or the Eden Project in Cornwall. But in some ways it was the smaller schemes, the little things and the individuals who were able to be helped that meant the most. All noble Lords who have contributed to the debate have mentioned the support for individual elite athletes and the dramatic impact that that has had on our performance in both the Olympic and Paralympic Games. I was very proud to help put that in place. It has made a huge difference. In addition to that, there is the transformation of village greens, church floodlighting, renovating village halls, putting church bells back into working order, ensuring that local Victorian parks can be restored to their former glory and rebuilding footpaths on highland mountains. One of my favourites is a little bit of what I like to think of as democratic socialism, smuggled past Tony Blair when he was not looking: the Scottish Land Fund, which has helped local communities in parts of the Highlands and Islands to purchase collectively their land, their crofts and their villages, and to make a huge success of running that.
The lottery has much to be proud of. It hardly seems to have been 20 years; but in the course of those years it has helped to transform Britain much for the better.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, I too would like to thank the noble Baroness for initiating this very important debate. Earlier this week, in Grand Committee, I was reminded by my noble friend Lord Rooker that when the National Lottery was launched, many in my party had strong reservations and concerns about it and even opposition to the principle. The concerns have been mentioned already. Would the funds raised replace government expenditure on things that should be paid for out of taxes, such as nurses, teachers and road repairs? To address such concerns John Major’s Government adopted the principle of additionality, which meant that the funds would go to projects that would not happen without them and would have to be spent on capital projects. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Smith, that the expansion of the good causes under the previous Government did not breach that principle; it maintained that principle, which allowed a broader range of schemes.
The approach of the millennium saw a focus on grand building projects which it was hoped would result in a “culturally led regeneration” of inner-city areas. The Dome may have failed in terms of its broader cultural and educational objectives but it has led to regeneration of a depressed part of London, with most Londoners today being pleased with its subsequent use as the successful O2 entertainment centre. However, that success came with additional investment of £350 million from the private sector. Rowan Moore, in his recent excellent piece in the Observer, reminds us of some of the successes. The noble Lord, Lord Smith, has also reminded us of some. The Tate Modern now attracts about 5 million visitors a year. The Eden Project, Cornwall, captured the public imagination and earned impressive visitor numbers. Antony Gormley’s Angel of the North was firmly established as a symbol of Gateshead, and other towns seek to emulate it. We also have the American Air Museum in Duxford, designed by Norman Foster, which won the Stirling Prize. These are just a few examples of the remarkable range of new-built and refurbished cultural buildings. However, with local authorities being so severely constrained in their ability to support the arts, we could find, if we are not careful, that many of these facilities are empty and simply going to waste.
As we have heard in the debate, the National Lottery has delivered more than the iconic projects that I have highlighted. More than 450,000 individual awards have been made across the UK, with 12 independent specialist organisations awarding the money; 70% of National Lottery grants are for £10,000 or less, helping, as the noble Lord, Lord Smith, identified, small projects that make a big difference in their community. National Lottery funding has saved more than 700 playing fields, supported 1,400 museums and galleries, restored 6,000 village halls, enabled 57,000 World War II veterans to go on commemorative visits, bought and restored 72,000 hectares of land to protect key habitats and rare species, and given more than £750 million to regenerate public parks. As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, at the London 2012 Olympics, nine out of 10 Great Britain and Northern Ireland medallists were lottery funded. Eighteen lottery-funded films have gone on to win a total of 31 BAFTAs and 14 Oscars.
It is a well established requirement that lotteries should be the exclusive preserve of good causes, an issue which has been raised in the debate. However, I am becoming increasingly concerned about the prevalence of gambling products that do not clearly differentiate themselves from lotteries and appear to trade on the good name of lotteries for commercial gain. Can the Minister reassure me that the Government will take steps to maintain the important distinction between lotteries and gambling? The use of external lottery managers—ELMs—and umbrella brands have historically been a means, as the noble Baroness pointed out, by which society lotteries can maximise their returns to good causes, without competing substantially with the National Lottery. I, too, have raised in recent times my concerns with the Minister over the use of ELMs by the Health Lottery. It is supposedly made up of 51 separate companies, yet has the same three directors, the same office and the same branding—in effect enabling it to operate as an alternative to the National Lottery. It is competing with the National Lottery and people think that it is a national lottery. It is even called a “national lottery”, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, is in breach of the spirit, though not the letter, of the law. While many might say that the Health Lottery’s turnover is a fraction of that of the National Lottery, I am concerned that such a loophole might lead others, such as a big retail chain, to be tempted into the market because they have the infrastructure capability to do it. Does the Minister believe that operations such as the Health Lottery which utilise ELMs to run multiple society lotteries under one brand remain within the spirit of the original legislation? We need an answer.
The success of the National Lottery over the past 20 years is testament to the monopoly model designed by Parliament which encourages a lot of people to play a little, and has created a national institution. More than £32 billion has been raised since the National Lottery began in 1994. More than £12.6 billion has been paid to the Exchequer in lottery duty. Around 70% of adults in the UK play on a regular basis. This year, Camelot commissioned Frontier Economics to re-examine the case for this monopoly, and its findings continue to support this model. Evidence from a number of countries shows that larger jackpots attract more players. By concentrating sales, a single lottery provider maximises the available jackpots, and thus maximises sales and returns to good causes. It is the good causes on which we need to be focused. Uncertainty in the market could lead to operators being less willing to bid for future licences to run the National Lottery or demanding increased margins to do so, which could reduce returns to good causes.
I hope the Minister will state clearly the Government’s ongoing commitment to maintain and protect this model for the foreseeable future.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on securing this debate so soon after the 20th anniversary of the first National Lottery draw, and thank all noble Lords for such an exceptional debate. They have come with such experience across the House.
As my noble friends Lady Rawlings and Lord Holmes of Richmond remarked, when a national lottery was first proposed, it is fair to say that there was scepticism, verging on strong opposition, about the proposal. We can now see what a success it has been. In preparation for the new lottery, Sir John Major’s Government did some work to assess how much it could raise for good causes. The best-case scenario that officials envisaged was a lottery raising £1 billion a year. In fact, more than £32 billion pounds has been raised for good causes since the start of the lottery. This is a truly staggering sum of money, equating to £4.5 million every day.
However, as a wise man once said, it is not necessarily the size that matters but what you do with it that counts. More than 450,000 grants have been made to good causes. That is an average of 692 per parliamentary constituency. My noble friend Lady Rawlings and the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, have already set out many of the facts and statistics regarding the scale of benefits of the National Lottery. As a result, one sees the National Lottery crossed-fingers logo right across the country in galleries, museums, churches, sports facilities, villages, market towns, suburbs and cities. Some of those buildings have been built, saved or renovated thanks to lottery funding.
The National Lottery has enabled the fulfilment of very large projects in major cities. In London, the National Lottery has funded the rebuilding of the Royal Opera House and put a new roof on the British Museum. The lottery has funded the Baltic Centre for Contemporary Arts and the Sage—both in Gateshead—the Museum of Liverpool and the Lowry Centre in Manchester. In Scotland, it has funded the refurbishment of the Assembly Rooms in Edinburgh and access to the Glasgow School of Art. In Wales, it has funded the Millennium Centre and, in Belfast, the refurbishment of St George’s Market.
The National Lottery also funds events of national significance. There were, of course, the unforgettable 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. How fortunate we are to learn from the experience of my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond as a recipient, distributor and administrator. The National Lottery funded not only the infrastructure and staging of the Games but the athletes who competed so memorably and successfully. How proud our country was of them. One cannot adequately describe the euphoria felt across the whole nation, let alone in the stadia of the Games and the sense of a proud, tolerant and united country. So, onward to Rio. In addition, the lottery funded the cultural Olympiad and continues to fund Olympic legacy projects to this day through the Spirit of 2012 Trust. The noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, raised this particular point.
Recently, the National Lottery has been integral in the commemorations of the centenary of the start of the First World War. The Heritage Lottery Fund awarded over £60 million to more than 1,000 First World War centenary projects, covering nearly three-quarters of constituencies across the UK. One grant for over £12 million enabled the National Museum of the Royal Navy to turn HMS “Caroline” into a visitor attraction in Belfast in time for the centenary commemorations of the 1916 Battle of Jutland.
Those projects are but the tip of the iceberg. In fact, less than 1% of all National Lottery funding is spent on projects over £1 million. The overwhelming majority of people have benefited from the National Lottery at community level, to which your Lordships have alluded. People across the country have had their lives enhanced through grass-roots organisations in villages, suburbs and towns. I urge noble Lords to visit the National Lottery Good Causes website, where the projects that compete in the National Lottery Awards can be found. The successful projects give a sense of the extraordinary range stressed by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury.
I will give a flavour of some of the projects that were nominated for awards this year. Come Eat Together is a project helping older people to get together and enjoy healthy food as a community in County Durham. Active East is a project in the east of Glasgow encouraging young people to engage in more sports and activities. Hooray for Homework, a project in Mansfield, gives children a safe space where they can go after school to do their homework. I hope that my noble friend Lord Addington will be pleased to hear about Carry a Basketball, Not a Blade, a project in east London helping to reduce knife-crime-related violence among young people. The Jubilee Sailing Trust gives disabled and able-bodied people the opportunity to sail tall ships together. The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, mentioned the work of the Wordsworth Trust, with which he is most familiar.
However, even these awards fail to capture the impact that the National Lottery has had at the grass-roots level. In the constituency of Central Suffolk and North Ipswich, in which I live, the National Lottery has funded this year: the refurbishment of the Debenham community swimming pool; two community events aimed at involving people with disabilities in fun activities; a project remembering the First World War in Bramford; the staging of the Hoxne music festival; the refurbishment of Bredfield and Cotton village halls; purchasing computers for Worlingworth Primary School; and a number of other art and community projects. This is a snapshot of what is happening across the country. The National Lottery is supporting projects that are put forward by local communities for the benefit of their communities. Over 90% of grants from the National Lottery are for projects less than £100,000, and most projects receive a great deal less than that.
I thank my noble friend Lady Rawlings for this debate because it has provided an important opportunity for your Lordships’ House to mark the National Lottery’s extraordinary success. It has benefited thousands of people across the country and transformed their lives over the past 20 years. Furthermore, the prospects for the future look positive. Ticket sales are strong, on track to be at least the second highest ever. Camelot, the National Lottery operator, continues to build on the success that it has had in running the lottery for 20 years, managing one of the most widely-played and cost-effective national lotteries in the world.
My noble friends Lady Rawlings and Lord Addington and the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, expressed some caution—perhaps I am understating that—about competition from society lotteries, with particular reference to the Health Lottery. The Government agree with this sense of caution. We will shortly issue our call for evidence on society lotteries, which explores how we can ensure that society lotteries continue to raise funds for good causes but only in the context of a single, successful National Lottery. We must not, and will not, put the National Lottery at risk. The noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, mentioned gambling products, external lottery managers and the Health Lottery. We will ensure that these important points are involved and fully represented in our call for evidence.
My noble friend Lord Addington asked about the “cutting of the cake”. The Government do not have any plans for changes. It is fair to say that at the beginning of this Parliament the Government restored the shares of the arts, heritage and sport good causes to 20% each, up from 16.7%. That, along with ticket sales growth, meant that arts, heritage and sport together received more than £200 million in 2013-14 than was predicted in 2010. This afternoon, all of us have stressed the enormous benefits that have been seen across the country because of that.
My noble friend Lady Rawlings and the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, mentioned distribution bodies and making decision-making more transparent, simpler and more user-friendly. Again, the Government agree with that, and we will continue to work with distributors to improve application processes. Distributors are currently running a pilot in Doncaster—not far from Barnsley, of course—to encourage more people from disadvantaged backgrounds to access National Lottery funding. That is extremely important.
The Government will work to ensure the continued success of the National Lottery. We want to build on the success of the last 20 years for the next 20 years and beyond. We started this debate by referring to Sir John Major. There can be no doubt that we owe him all the accolades that he richly deserves. We now witness the extraordinary contribution that the proceeds of the National Lottery make to the lives of so many people. Sir John’s legacy extends to every part of this country—it is a force for good. I cannot think of a better legacy for a Prime Minister.
Schools: Arts Education
(10 years ago)
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The Earl of Clancarty
That this House takes note of the case for arts education in schools.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, I am very pleased that we are having this debate today concerning arts education in schools. I welcome to this Chamber the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, and I very much look forward to hearing her maiden speech. I also look forward to hearing the speeches of all noble Lords, as we have represented in this debate a wide range of experience of the arts as well as expertise in education. I come to this debate as someone with two points of view: as an artist, and therefore with a particular concern for arts education—I declare an interest as a vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Art, Craft and Design in Education—but also, as is true for other noble Lords, as a parent.
A week ago today my noble friend Lady Kidron led an important debate on children’s digital rights on the 25th anniversary of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Article 31 of the convention, which is quoted at the top of the Cultural Learning Alliance’s manifesto, states that nation signatories shall,
“respect and promote the right of the child to participate fully in cultural and artistic life and shall encourage the provision of appropriate and equal opportunities for cultural, artistic, recreational and leisure activity”.
Comparable wording stressing a minimum level of arts education is expressed by Darren Henley in the first recommendation of his 2012 cultural education review, which has been fully endorsed by the current Government.
Implicit in the UN definition is that arts education is a good in itself. I would go further: education is a good in itself. It is not merely a preparation for work, nor even necessarily a preparation for life, if we consider that a good education will instil in the child a constant curiosity and questioning about the world—a love of lifelong learning. The arts are and should be an integral part of that vision.
The excellent Library briefing states the Department for Education’s definition of the arts as comprising art and design, music, drama, dance and the media arts. More particularly, we might also cite literature—English literature having a special place in the curriculum—the decorative arts, including craft, and architecture, as well as film and the digital arts. “The arts” is a traditional term, but the arts themselves are both old and brand new. Indeed, as we speak, artists in many media are making new work in new forms, reacting to the world as it is today and discovering new technologies. At the outset, then, I say that it is vital that schoolchildren are exposed to contemporary art and contemporary drama—for instance—as much as to Michelangelo or Shakespeare. The teaching of visual literacy in schools, which many, including Sir Nicholas Serota, see as an essential aspect of life in the 21st century, should involve a critical understanding of new art as well as old.
However, when as a parent I ask myself what I want from a school education for my nine year-old child, I would say yes to access to the sciences, the arts, the humanities, to languages—I would love my child to learn a second language fluently—and access to sport. As a parent, then, I want to see a broad-based education where my child is exposed to a range of subjects. If we are thinking about the whole child, as I certainly am, we should be giving careful thought to what goes into the making of that whole child. As Clara Oswald in “Doctor Who” says:
“The soufflé isn’t the soufflé. The soufflé is the recipe”.
Eggs are good and milk is good, but it is that mix of ingredients, the interplay between contrasting subjects, that is the vital heartbeat of an excellent education.
That is why the Education Secretary is so wrong when in her recent speech at the launch of the “Your Life” campaign she stated that arts and humanities subjects will not give young people the skills that they need to pursue a career. She is wrong because she seems to understand education only through the narrow prism of the labour market. An attack on the arts is an attack on education as a whole and on the fundamental importance of a balanced education. Denigrating the arts means also devaluing the sciences, as would be true the other way round.
Her speech also contradicts what employers in the UK are beginning to understand. The CBI said last year that a significant number of firms needing employees with STEM skills and knowledge had difficulty recruiting because they were not rounded or grounded. The Royal Bank of Scotland said only last week that it now wanted to employ arts graduates because it believed that its economists and mathematicians showed too much so-called linear thinking, which the bank had the temerity to suggest was in part responsible for the financial crisis—and it might be right. For this kind of education to take place in schools, which is where it starts, the arts, sciences and humanities subjects need to maintain their integrity as identifiable subjects in their own right. That is why I am talking about arts subject, not about creativity. The arts need to be treated as significant equal elements within the school educational system.
It is a sad reflection on our educational system that the case for an arts education in schools needs to be made, because arts subjects are under threat in a number of significant ways. To be fair to this Government, although there are specific current issues which need to be addressed, this has been true for a while. Since 2003, the number of students taking art and design GCSEs has fallen by 13%, music by 10% and drama by 23%. Overall, the take-up of GCSE arts subjects has fallen by 28%.
Then there is the question of the national curriculum itself. It currently makes very little mention of either dance, which is only included in PE, or drama, which has been removed from English and, unforgivably, given no curriculum place from the ages of five to 14. Film and the media—and I have already mentioned one of the country's great broadcasting exports—now receive no mention at all. It is excellent that the Government are introducing computer coding into schools, but there is no mention in the curriculum of the digital world in relation to the arts, although in various ways this is already an important aspect of the arts and creative industries. The status of arts subjects is also plummeting in other ways. We are seeing the continuing development of an ever more layered hierarchy of subjects within the system of performance measures. This is already having a real effect on the take-up of exams and indeed on the choices on offer in schools.
The EBacc has not gone away. Early last year we had a full and public debate on the EBacc when it was rightly criticised from all sides for its prescribed bias against the arts. Its effect remains as insidious as if it had become a full-blown qualification. In the debate in your Lordships’ House on 14 January 2013, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones said:
“I have never seen the creative sector so united against what appears to be a two-tier approach by the Government to educational qualifications”. —[Official Report,14/1/13; col. 551.]
Now, with Progress 8 and the double weighting of maths and English, arts subjects will lie at the third and bottom tier of the new system. The University of the Arts London has said that this has damaged the perceived status of art and design in the eyes of parents and within some schools. In its 2014 Educator Survey report, the National Society for Education in Art and Design says that more than half the heads of departments agree that the EBacc has played an important role in the organisation of the art, craft and design curriculum. The take-up of arts GCSEs has declined by 13% since it was introduced in 2010. UAL, the NSEAD and the Cultural Learning Alliance all recommend that the Ebacc performance measure be dismantled. How can the Minister defend this hierarchical system now so hugely biased against the arts? In terms of accountability, are there any plans for Ofsted to recognise and comment on the quality of the arts in its reports?
There is also the effect of the amalgamation in 2013 of many arts subject discount codes, a further performance measure that is having a serious effect on options. For noble Lords who do not know, subjects given individual codes count individually, while those with joint codes do not. We are grateful to the Government for listening to the arts education community so that this year dance and drama and fine art and photography were separated, but it is a case of two steps forward following numerous steps back. UAL and the NSEAD point to the still unseparated GCSE and AS-level fine art, graphic communication, textile design and 3D design subjects. Comparing these and certain closely related but separated maths subjects, for instance, it is illogical that the maths subjects can often be taught by the same person while the arts subjects are distinct specialisms that may well need different teachers for those subjects to be taught to an adequate standard.
Over the past four years, there has been a decline of 7% in arts teachers and, crucially, a 6% decline in arts teaching hours. The last month showed an increase in the number of allocated places for arts teachers, but the significant flipside to this is that many of the teachers will be taught within a school setting rather than coming through university PGCE courses. The Government talk about good teachers as though somehow they drop from heaven, but good professional specialised teachers provide a necessary value for teaching that would not otherwise occur. It will increase the possibility that teachers can teach more than one specialism in the arts when the need arises. They are more likely to provide a greater in-depth knowledge of the subject and an understanding of both the wider educational and arts professional frameworks.
I want to say something about the initiatives, programmes and partnerships that this Government are encouraging and/or funding. They vary in scale and scope from smaller ones, such as the BBC's partnership with the Public Catalogue Foundation to bring real paintings into the classroom and the new partnership between the Tate and the popular computer game “Minecraft”, through to the Sorrell Foundation art and design Saturday clubs and the ambitious setting up of the 123 music hubs. Many of these programmes are imaginative and to be welcomed, as is the money that the Government are putting into them, but I argue that they should be the icing on the cake. They are in some cases very good icing but they are not the cake, and should not be the basis for a national school arts policy. As a means of solving the problems that exist in schools, they are inefficient because the money does not go directly to the schools themselves. None of these programmes addresses all schools, either in terms of the curriculum itself or in terms of the provision of resources. Some funding will be intentionally selective in its application, such as for the National Youth Dance Company, which will target only the “brightest young dance talent”. The point then is not one of quality but, as UAL says,
“additional programmes ... do not have the capacity or reach to engage with young people across the country and should not be considered a substitute for a high quality art and design offer in schools”.
National Drama says that the RSC Learning Toolkit, while useful,
“is not an acceptable substitute for a national curriculum for drama, with a broad programme of study for Drama that needs to be arrived at through democratic consultation”.
In the excellent music debate led by my noble friend Lord Aberdare on 24 October, two major related themes emerged. One was a concern about the patchiness of the reach of music hubs and, secondly, that deprived areas in particular would not be sufficiently addressed. The problem is that music hubs will always be inherently patchy. They simply do not directly address the real concerns, which are the funding, provision and encouragement of music and the necessary resources, including costly instruments, within schools themselves. A comparable problem, of course, exists for the provision of art materials and resources for art and design courses. As the Cultural Learning Alliance points out, the money put into these programmes does not replace the funding that in other ways is being removed, with education funding in real terms dropping by 13% between 2010 and 2014. There are also the knock-on effects of cuts to the arts themselves and the reduction in Arts Council portfolio organisations, the reduction in outreach and the inevitable isolation of some schools as a result.
The DfE states that 21% of schools with a high proportion of free school meals withdrew arts subjects in 2012. The Child Poverty Action Group said in a report earlier this year that, for poorer children, cost—that is to say, the increasing hidden costs now occurring within state schools—was a factor when deciding whether to study subjects such as photography, art, music and design and technology. There is a real danger, highlighted recently by the acting profession, that the arts will become a province only of the rich. We need to get the emphasis back to schools and the funding and provision for arts subjects within them so that there can be universal access to arts education, replacing a current policy based on piecemeal initiatives. We need to reform performance measures so that arts subjects have a proper place again within the school curriculum. This will be healthy for education, for society and for the labour market. I beg to move.
Lord Cashman (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his eloquence in introducing the debate. I, too, look forward to the speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park. I declare an interest as a member of British Actors’ Equity; I have held that membership for some 50 years.
I want to make the moral case for arts in education—first, by giving a personal perspective. Growing up in the East End of London, the son of a docker, from the very day I was born my life was set out before me. I failed my 11-plus and I went off to my secondary modern school as a rebel in search of any cause. It was then that I discovered drama—or, rather, a drama teacher discovered me. Then there was the wonderful experience of going to see “Oliver!” in the West End of London when I was 11 years old, leaning forward in those cheap seats that we used to call the gods, and thinking, “I never, ever want this to end”. The irony was that I was discovered in a secondary modern school singing in the end-of-term school show, and within three months I was playing Oliver in that very same West End production.
That changed my life for ever. Before that I had no concept of theatre, performance arts or even of drama as a subject. Suddenly there was a focus for the energy that made my father boast—at least, I think it was a boast—that if I had not gone on the stage I would have ended up in prison. I began a career as an actor that lasted 37 years. It taught me so many things. This is why the arts, drama, music, film and media studies—everything that the noble Earl outlined—are so important in education, because they affect every single thing that we do.
I am talking not only about communication skills, which some of us have and some of us do not, but about confidence skills. At how many moments during the day do we stand up thinking, “I can’t do this”? Somehow, though, we have learnt to masquerade and pretend that we can, and we carry it off because we have the ability to imagine that there is another idea, another option. The team-building and discipline that come from the arts in education last for the rest of people’s lives.
The idea that we have to choose between arts and sciences is utter nonsense. The two are married together. Indeed, it was learning the disciplines as a young actor that allowed me, in my mid-20s, to study science and to achieve, in 11 months, my O-levels and A-levels. I could never have done that if I had not had the courage, the confidence and the ability to imagine.
I am going on far too long about me, though, and it is vital that I say some of the things that I have properly prepared to say. What I have said so far explains why I believe that all students should have access to drama as a subject in schools, taught by specialist trained drama teachers with qualified teacher status. Drama is a distinct art form and should have its own subject status, separate from that of English, in both primary and secondary schools. If drama is to be engaged in before GCSE level, that requires trained and qualified drama teachers in secondary schools, and in primary schools it requires high quality in-service drama training as a minimum.
Currently there is a significant and deepening inequality of drama provision in schools, and some schools provide none. There should be equality of national curriculum status for at least the five main art forms in schools: art and design, music, dance, drama, and film. The Department for Education has never given any reason why the different art forms are given differential status and attention. It is vital that we be told why it has that opinion, because it affects not only us but generations to come.
Children and young people can now go through education and receive no direct or specialist drama teaching at all. There is a real concern that drama could get parcelled out as “vocational”, to the financial benefit of theatres. We could see only children whose parents can afford it being able to study and engage in drama and the creative arts. That is why my right honourable friend Harriet Harman has said so often that creative and cultural learning supports attainment in all subjects, including literacy and maths. Research has shown that taking part in arts activities at school can make up for an early disadvantage in terms of likelihood to progress to further education as well as in employment outcomes.
I say with due respect to the Minister that I believe the Government are going in the wrong direction on art and culture, and the arts are in danger of becoming more remote from children from working-class backgrounds, such as me, and children in disadvantaged communities, as well as remote from young people in our regions. The whole government narrative around the English baccalaureate, as the noble Earl has said, which the arts community fought so valiantly against, sent a damaging signal to downgrade the arts in education. The number of children sitting arts GCSEs is declining—music is down 9%, drama is down 13% and film is excluded from the curriculum altogether. Teacher training places in arts education have been cut by 35% and the number of specialist arts teachers has fallen. This makes no sense in terms of the creative industries and the arts. It makes no sense in wider educational terms.
We do not want the children being educated now to live in silos. We want them to imagine and to connect. We want them to imagine that there are other ways and other approaches. In the end, it is art that defines us as human beings. Therefore, we underinvest in these subjects, and in this generation and future generations, at our cultural, moral and economic peril.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for introducing this timely and interesting debate on the arts in education. I declare an interest as a patron of Creative Skillset, the creative industries’ sector skills council.
On Tuesday this week, I had the privilege of attending a service at St Margaret’s for the Girls’ Schools Association where the school local to me in Guildford, St Catherine’s School, provided the choir for the service. It sang among other things an especially commissioned motet taken from excerpts from poems of Maya Angelou. It was both moving and beautiful. As the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, said, the children of those parents who can afford it have a very broad education. They often have a longer school day and highly specialist facilities, which provide them with an excellent and outstanding education in all areas, including the areas of the arts.
As far as state schools are concerned, I was cheered by reading the foreword provided by Michael Gove and Ed Vaizey to Cultural Education: A Summary of Programmes and Opportunities, published in July 2013—a very recent statement of the Government’s ambition is for arts education. It states:
“The arts are the highest form of human achievement. Through art we not only make sense of ourselves and the world, we also make our lives enchanted. Art allows us to celebrate our common humanity and communicate across boundaries. Artistic endeavour marks us out from the rest of nature as creators and celebrators of beauty. That is why no education can be complete, indeed no programme of education can even begin, without making the arts and creativity central to a child’s life … England’s many successful schools put culture at the heart of their curriculum and we want all schools to be able to emulate, indeed surpass, those which are currently outstanding … We will encourage more schools to offer a wider spread of creative subjects with a new accountability framework for secondary schools”.
Why, then, have we now had two speeches pointing out the drop in the number of GCSE arts subjects being taken, the very substantial fall in the number of teachers being trained in arts subjects, and the real decline in drama, dance and the graphic arts in our schools? It is not necessarily down to the national curriculum. As far as the national curriculum is concerned, the briefing paper we have received tells us very firmly:
“Arts subjects are compulsory in maintained schools in England until the age of 14. They are not compulsory national curriculum subjects after the age of 14, but all pupils in maintained schools in England have a statutory entitlement to be able to study an arts subject as part of their key stage 4 education”.
It is not the lack of the arts in the national curriculum, or even the lack of concern for the arts. It is, I think, an unintended consequence of the accountability measures that we now impose upon our schools.
Mention has already been made of the EBacc. The subjects that fall within the EBacc are English and maths, two sciences, history, geography and a modern foreign language or a classical language. I, for one, am very pleased, in some senses, that there is a broader education within the EBacc, but it is sad that the arts have been downgraded and not given the same status. I have to confess that I am very concerned indeed about what is happening with the arts in our primary schools, where emphasis on SATS in year 6 often drives the curriculum. Lots of very good primary schools get over it, but some that are less good are absolutely terrified by the need to get good SATS results and have narrowed down the primary school curriculum to the three Rs to too great an extent. We want to expand it but at the moment it is not expanding.
As we all know, all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy and Jill a dull girl. It is vital that we feed a love of creativity in to our young people. The development of their imaginations in primary schools comes from play, but too much of that play has gone out due to the emphasis on phonics and achieving the required standards in phonics at the age of five or six. There is too much testing and too much teaching to the test, pushing out the creative parts of the curriculum.
As everybody emphasises, the creative industries are now expanding faster than other industries. For many years people poured scorn on media studies, yet actually, as the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, mentioned, with the bringing together of computerisation and digital technologies and the arts technologies, institutes such as Arts University Bournemouth and Bath Spa University, which concentrate on these things, are finding it very easy to find jobs for their graduates. It is graduates in geography and history who often have difficulty in finding jobs.
Many times from these Benches I have called for more emphasis on maths and science education. I have been very much a champion of the STEM subjects because I have been very worried about the drop in the numbers of young people taking STEM subjects. However, I have also been somewhat critical of the narrowness of British, and particularly English, education, and the fact that at age 16 we have to narrow things down to three A-levels. This has led to a divide between the arts and the sciences. I would have liked to have seen us move in the direction of a broader curriculum for 16 to 18 year-olds—something equivalent to the international baccalaureate.
I therefore end with a plea not for STEM but for STEAM—science, technology, engineering, arts and mathematics. We want them all together. We want to provide a broad education for our young people—one which gives them the best foundation for moving forward in life.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)
My Lords, I agree with everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has said. I regard this subject, the provision of arts—and, in my case, music in particular—in schools as vital. Thus I am much indebted to my noble friend Lord Clancarty for securing this debate. I cannot endorse more warmly his plea for the appreciation of contemporary arts, because it is not just in Shakespeare that we find out about ourselves and the society we live in; it is in the contemporary arts as well, and Shakespeare would have been the first to say so.
I take this opportunity, since it is the first I have had, to welcome the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, to our midst. It is great to have another member of the artistic community, and one who has done so much for the gay community through the auspices of Stonewall, which I have long supported. It is also wonderful to be able to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park. I look forward to her maiden speech with anticipation.
Why do I see this debate as so important? It is because I have seen the quite magical effect that music and the arts can have on young developing minds. Furthermore, objective research supports the fact that music, in particular, often gets through where other things fail. Yet, as we have heard, we have to set against that the fact that in the period from 2010 to 2013 there was a drop in the number of GCSE students taking art and, in particular, music and drama, according to the Department for Education’s figures. I wonder whether this is something that causes the Government concern. I very much hope that it does.
There are schools in which children get no exposure to music or theatre or to singing in a choir—that quintessential activity that many noble Lords still partake of in the Parliament Choir. Singing collegiately is a quite wonderful way of developing the ability to be a team player, to listen to others, to blend in and to communicate. Singing a great choral work with a lot of your friends can be a completely overpowering and binding experience.
Not all children conform, thank goodness, to stereotyping, and it is in the arts and music that many find nourishment and a natural home. Let me give my own experience as a somewhat unusual child. I did not initially thrive academically—I am clearly a late developer—but the music master, a Mr Lambert, saw something in me and encouraged my composition and my playing of the organ in the school chapel. At the same time, I took part in drama productions, and there I learnt to speak in public with a degree of confidence and even extemporisation—a quality that some noble Lords may have cause to regret on occasion—so when I presented the Proms on BBC television, for example, I was not so afraid of the camera. Indeed, I rather relished it. My point is that the faith that two schoolmasters involved in the arts showed in my potential saved me from a possible scrapheap—perhaps not, like the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, prison. The number of successful people who have appeared on my Radio 3 programme “Private Passions” who have ascribed their chance in life to visionary arts and music teachers is quite staggering.
I know the Government are receptive to wide educational remits, but there are real gaps where theatre and music, in particular, are concerned, so here are three definite and distinct questions for the Minister which he might be able to help me with. Will the Government aim to make singing a weekly event in every school? Will they aim to make music and drama part of the curriculum in every school? Will they aim to help disadvantaged children to get musical tuition, currently the privilege of the rich? It is true that the hubs have begun to have some patchy success in this area. The Government have rightly saluted the income which the creative industries bring to the economy of this country. However, to secure that income for the future it is essential that the children who will be the performers of tomorrow—string players, for example—are able to start young. We have to get to young minds, young fingers, and young, still-developing muscles.
Beyond these practical points, there is the aesthetic, spiritual, transcending outlet that music and the arts afford young, and sometimes turbulent, minds. There are, of course, many calls on the Government for funds in different directions, but I passionately believe that they discard this particular call at their peril.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con) (Maiden Speech)
My Lords, it is a privilege to make my maiden speech on the important subject of education. I declare an interest as the director of New Schools Network, an educational charity that helps groups set up new, independent state schools. I begin by thanking all noble Lords and the staff of this House for the warm welcome they have given me. In the few weeks that I have been here, I have experienced the genuine kindness and tremendous assistance for which the House has such a well deserved reputation. I particularly thank my two supporters, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the noble Lord, Lord Cavendish of Furness.
My first challenge on being given this honour was to select my title; not something I ever expected to do. I chose Bowes Park, the area in Haringey in which I have lived for over 10 years. The heart of Bowes Park is Myddleton Road, named after the constructor of the New River, which flows through the area and was built in 1613, providing London with fresh drinking water ever since. Once a bustling high street, Myddleton Road fell into decline for many years but it is now showing encouraging signs of regeneration, thanks to a passionate local community. A new open-air gym—part of our Olympic legacy—a regular street market and, most excitingly, the opening of a café and gallery by two local entrepreneurs, are all playing their part in helping to revitalise the area.
I am delighted to become the youngest female member of the House, an honour passed on to me by the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox. In doing so, I am also delighted to have doubled the number of noble Lords sitting in this House under the age of 40. In the 1984 presidential election campaign, a 73 year-old Ronald Reagan said that he would not make age an issue and exploit 56 year-old Walter Mondale’s youth and inexperience. I hope your Lordships will show me a similar indulgence.
I thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for initiating this debate. I was fortunate enough to go to Henrietta Barnett, an excellent state school, and am well aware of the advantages it gave me. I already know from this debate that your Lordships will agree that all children are entitled to a good education. Because of this, it has been a privilege for me to be involved with free schools: first at Policy Exchange, helping to develop the programme, and most recently at New Schools Network, supporting teachers, parents, charities and community groups in actually setting them up. I am all too well aware of, and have seen at first hand, the passion and dedication of those committed to improving education in their local communities. Across the state education system we are seeing the real, positive impact that giving freedom to our best teachers is having on raising standards, particularly for some of our most deprived pupils. There is exciting innovation: to name just a few of these, we are seeing the first bilingual schools; new approaches to teaching maths, drawing inspiration from the Far East; and schools that have a no-excuses culture, which helps raise the aspirations of their students.
On the subject of this debate, Britain has an unparalleled cultural heritage. Today, as has already been mentioned, our creative industries are worth more than £70 billion a year to our economy. It is imperative that our education system equips young people with the skills and knowledge to take advantage of the opportunities in this dynamic sector. At New Schools Network we have been delighted to support a number of new schools which have taken an innovative approach to arts education.
East London Arts & Music is a school that has direct involvement from some of the biggest names in the music industry. Its mission is to help young people from disadvantaged backgrounds succeed in that industry, be it as technicians, producers or artists. The world class Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts has opened a primary school whose creative curriculum draws on that city’s rich heritage. Wac Arts uses the performing arts to re-engage young people who have struggled in mainstream education. As has already been made clear in this debate, a well rounded education is fundamental to ensuring that young people make the best possible start in life. It should be available to all, regardless of their background, and must not become a luxury for those who can afford it.
In this globally competitive world, young people need to develop confidence and resilience. They need to be able to communicate effectively and think creatively. Research demonstrates that participation in the arts can help pupils, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds, develop those characteristics. The importance of arts education across the state sector must not be underestimated. I hope that my short contribution today shows my commitment to ensuring that all young people get the best opportunities in life. I look forward to contributing to the work of the House in this and many other areas.
Baroness Kidron (CB)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak after the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park. Her absorbing maiden speech was dignified by her commitment to education and her history in public policy and both will be of great benefit to this House. I was particularly glad to hear her speak of the value of arts to those young people from disadvantaged backgrounds. I join all Members from all sides of the Chamber in welcoming her to this debate and more broadly to the work of the House, in which I am sure she will play a formidable role.
I also must thank my noble friend Lord Clancarty for making such an excellent introduction. I want to associate myself with absolutely everything he said. He is tireless in bringing this subject to the House and admirable in the way and the seriousness with which he does so. I have many interests in this area, which are all recorded on the register.
I have considerable sympathy for the Secretary of State for Education, the right honourable Nicky Morgan MP, who earlier this month made a clarion call for girls to take up science and maths at school. As a camerawoman and film director of 35 years’ standing, I am familiar with the obstacles inherent in stepping outside traditional gender roles. However, in valorising the sciences she chose to pit art and science against each other. Her given reason was that the,
“world is changing beyond recognition, at a pace unmatched by any other point in history”.
In that explanation, I felt that she was mistaken. Rather than requiring this binary opposition, the new world demands a mix of skills. A world with infinite information requires us to filter what is useful and to imagine the content and source of that information. A world delivered digitally not only requires digital literacy but visual literacy in order to understand and to contribute to its predominantly visual language. A world in which user-generated content is a primary economic driver demands one to be one’s own photographer, publisher, graphic artist and computer programmer, whether one is a hotelier, an academic or a journalist.
Perhaps not surprisingly for a world designed as a network of networks, there is an emphasis on teamwork. Global companies which invent “disruptive” businesses with their flatter, leaner hierarchies work across projects deliberately in cross-functional and multidisciplinary teams. In schools, young people learn to work together in drama, sport, dance and film, all of which are disciplines in which a common objective and not just individual attainment is key. In the GCSE drama course, one’s grade actually depends to some degree on the performance and discipline of one’s peers. For our new world, that is indeed a precious lesson.
At school, the young learn visual literacy from graphics, design, art, photography and film, though, as other noble Lords have said, film is no longer mentioned in the national curriculum for the first time in almost two decades. In school, critical thinking is developed across all of the humanities and the arts, as well as science and maths. In short, the skills necessary for our world are present right across the curriculum.
This text from the home page of the MIT Media Lab embodies the culture of the rapidly changing world to which the Education Secretary refers:
“The MIT Media Lab goes beyond known boundaries and disciplines, encouraging the most unconventional mixing and matching of seemingly disparate research areas”,
working,
“in more than 25 research groups on more than 350 projects that range from digital approaches for treating neurological disorders, to a stackable electric car for sustainable cities, to advanced imaging technologies than can ‘see around the corner’”.
On a visit to the Media Lab last year, I met musicians, philosophers, social scientists, mathematicians, medics and linguists. There was one woman whose entire research trajectory was about the colour of words. This is the world into which schoolchildren of today will emerge.
However, the narrative from Her Majesty’s Government appears to be that the arts are not central pillars in their vision of education. The EBacc, the emphasis on STEM subjects, discount codes and the new Progress 8 all structurally devalue and destabilise the place of arts in the curriculum. As a result, we are witnessing the inevitable gravitation, even in good schools, towards those subjects against which their performance is judged. The Department for Education’s own figures indicate a disproportionate fall in the hours of arts teaching and the number of arts teachers since 2010.
I am not arguing for the arts alone; I am, as the Minister knows, a passionate advocate of digital literacy across the entire curriculum and have argued for greater investment in teachers’ professional development to deliver the Government’s excellent computing curriculum. As I have said, I support wholeheartedly the Secretary of State’s call for girls to do science and maths, but it is simply the case that many, if not most, of the new workforce will have to have a complex matrix of skills and the fluidity to move between them.
I hope that other noble Lords will refer in detail to the extensive evidence on the role of arts in supporting social mobility, but I will briefly make this point: if we deprive disadvantaged young people of access to the arts on a measurable basis in school, we will create a situation where cultural capital will be the preserve of the already privileged. This will, in the future, decimate the pool of talent that we now enjoy right across all the art forms.
I also put on the record the value of the arts in and of themselves: they are transformative and life enhancing and reflect what it means to be human. In their own right, moreover, they are a major contributor to GDP. Like top independent schools that see no reason to privilege one discipline over the other, the Government should not present a binary choice, but promote arts and science as single virtuous circle.
I therefore ask the Minister: given that our new world requires young people to have multiple skills, should not an arts subject be explicitly included in the Progress 8 measure? Should not the EBacc be dropped as a supplementary accountability measure? Should not the Government narrative be “STEAM not STEM”, because it is this narrative that determines funding, training and infrastructure, and ultimately the provision of arts in our schools?
Baroness Nye (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Earl for securing this important debate, congratulate the noble Baroness on her maiden speech and thank other speakers for their contribution. I, too, am a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Art, Craft and Design in Education, which is so well served by the noble Earl and our chair, Sharon Hodgson. The APPG was set up to champion high-quality and inclusive arts education in our schools in the belief that art, craft and design are essential not only to our economy but to the cultural, creative and social well-being of everyone.
The Labour Party has always recognised that the arts are for everyone, for each and every individual and all our communities. However, I think that we all share a vision of every child having the chance to learn about the value and thrill of culture. I look forward to the speech of my noble friend Lord Smith of Finsbury because, under his stewardship, the previous Labour Government were able to ensure free admission to all our national museums and galleries which, I am pleased to say, the present Government have continued to support—although it is sad that museum visits by schoolchildren have decreased by one-third.
As has been said, the Government’s thinking in this area has been a little muddled, to say the least. The previous Culture Secretary supported STEM to STEAM, but that was at the same time as the then Education Secretary was busy devaluing creative education through the introduction of the EBacc. The new Education Secretary has waded in and compounded the problem by announcing that the best way to get a job is to drop arts and humanities, although the Culture Select Committee said in a recent report that,
“the crucial role of arts subjects … should be recognised and that art subjects should be added to the STEM subjects”.
Surely no one wants our young people to be denied fulfilling their unique potential, nor do we want the creative industries’ success story to stall. The Select Committee also recommended that a Minister from the Department for Education should attend the Creative Industries Council. Will the Minister say whether that has happened or will happen?
A quarter of schools withdrew non-EBacc subjects from their curriculum this academic year, and art was one of the most commonly withdrawn, according to Ipsos-MORI. Figures from the National Society for Education in Art and Design show that, since the introduction of the EBacc and changes to the discounting codes, the number of young people sitting arts GCSEs is in decline. The reduction in arts training places has resulted in fewer specialist arts teachers, and fewer hours are taught. The number of design and technology teachers has also been hit.
As the noble Baroness just said, it should not be a binary choice between STEM and art and design: both are important. For example, the Royal College of Art is running highly sought-after joint masters degrees with Imperial College London. According to Steve Jobs,
“technology alone is not enough—it’s technology married with liberal arts, married with the humanities, that yields us the results that make our heart sing.”
In that regard, I welcome the Government’s introduction of coding into the curriculum, but the video games industry needs artists as much as computer experts. That is why the Labour Party has commissioned an independent review, led by John Woodward, the former head of the UK Film Council, to consider, among other things, how better to link up education and training with the needs of the creative industries and the digital sector.
Literacy, numeracy and creativity are what the modern global economy demands, and I am sure that we have all enjoyed the excellent book, The Virtuous Circle, by John Sorrell, Paul Roberts and Darren Hanley, which has been sent to all of us for this debate. Sir John and Lady Frances Sorrell’s work on education, particularly in the area of design, have helped successive Governments, and I welcome their support for the newly formed Creative Industries Federation, because design is the bridge between arts, science, technology and business. Design has been defined as the,
“specification of an object, manifested by an agent, intended to accomplish goals, in a particular environment, using a set of primitive components, satisfying a set of requirements, subject to constraints”—
I apologise, because the last clause could have been written by the Treasury. However, it shows that design is relevant in almost every situation or environment.
For many years, I have been visiting the New Designers exhibition. It is the UK’s largest graduate design exhibition, showcasing the work of more than 3,000 of the very best graduates across a host of disciplines from 200 of the UK’s top art and design universities and colleges. It helped launch the careers of Thomas Heatherwick, Bethan Gray and Matthew Williamson, to name a few. I strongly recommend that your Lordships take the opportunity to visit the exhibition next year. You cannot walk away from that exhibition without a smile on your face after being enthused by the talent, potential and enthusiasm in the hall. A poll of this year’s students showed that almost half of them see themselves setting up their own creative businesses in the next five years, thereby adding to the creative capital in the UK. However, if the trend for young people at key stage 4 not to be able to access art and design courses continues, where will the new designers of the future come from?
This year the New Designers exhibition hosted two “creative Saturdays”, which offered children and young people their first taste of the professional design world. This was part of the Sorrell Foundation’s National Art and Design Saturday Club, which offers young people aged 14 to 16 the opportunity to study art and design every Saturday morning at their local college or university—free of charge, with half of them located in the most disadvantaged areas. They hope that 2,500 youngsters will be taking part by 2018. However, this is a programme aimed at complementing the curriculum, and it is not a substitute for one.
As Europe’s largest specialist art and design university, UAL, has said, the additional programmes funded by the Department for Education, like Saturday clubs, do not have the reach or capacity to engage with young people across the breadth of the country. Those young people need teachers who have had access to professional development. Ofsted has recommended that the Department for Education should explore how teachers could,
“improve the teaching of drawing and widen the impact of contemporary crafts-based initiatives”.
Craft skills generate over £3 billion for the UK economy and it is exceptionally worrying that GCSE craft courses have fallen by a quarter and higher education courses by a half. Will the Minister say whether the department is taking up the Ofsted recommendations and whether he is in favour of an annual subsidised entitlement to professional development programmes in art, craft and design?
Michael Gove said that he wanted state schools to be indistinguishable from the best fee-paying schools. The Cultural Learning Alliance interviewed the heads of some of the leading fee-paying schools in the country. All were of the view that cultural learning improves children’s attainment and that it is a duty to their children and their parents. Tony Little, of Eton College, told the Cultural Learning Alliance:
“By limiting the subjects that are valued, the EBacc is downgrading and reducing the potential for achievement”.
Does the Minister think that by not adding art to the STEM subjects we are on course for making state schools indistinguishable from fee-paying schools? Is it not strange that parents who pay for education expect a cultural offer but there are different expectations for the education provided through taxation? Unless art and design education is supported and encouraged at the very beginning of a child’s journey, there will be untapped potential for that child and for our country.
Lord Bichard (CB)
My Lords, this is a very timely debate and I too thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for initiating it, and I certainly congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, on a maiden speech full of passion and commitment for education—which I very much applaud.
I am not an artist. I am not a designer. I am certainly not an actor. In fact my art teacher described me as the most boring pupil he had ever encountered. I thought this was a touch overstated, but it was a setback to my creative ambitions and left me with few options but to become a bureaucrat—which I did. I subsequently sought to rehabilitate myself and have been vice-chancellor of the University of the Arts London, which has already been mentioned, the chair of the Design Council, the chair of FILMCLUB, with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, helping me, and I am now vice-chairman of Shakespeare’s Globe—an organisation which, without public money, works with more than 120,000 young people every year, creating productions with and for students. In those various capacities, I think I have come to understand the power of arts education, as well as its importance to young people, to society and to our economy. I want to give some specific reasons why we should champion the cause of arts education.
For a start, it enables young people with talent for the arts to develop their potential. Not everyone excels in the traditional academic subjects—as we have heard—but education must be about ensuring that every child fulfils their potential. We have a responsibility to ensure that our young creative talent has that opportunity, too. As the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, said, it also develops confidence. It develops the capacity to communicate and to present effectively. These are essential social and employability skills, which we know that many school leavers lack. As a result they struggle to engage, to find work and to assert themselves in society.
Arts education often helps children with learning difficulties to participate on a level playing field. I have seen countless moving examples of pupils who generally find school difficult coming alive in drama classes, in dance classes and in the arts generally. They are excited by the chance to play a full part in class activities, at last feeling a true equal. It also builds our creative engine for the future. Our creative industries fuel our economy, not least in London. They not only produce GDP, from a sector which is growing three times as fast as the rest of the economy, but provide the UK with a major international profile. That does not happen by accident. We have to develop the creative skills that we need, and we have to do that early. We cannot leave it to further and higher education.
Arts education helps to develop an understanding and an appreciation of the creative arts, which will enrich lives throughout the adult years, not only improving immeasurably people’s quality of life but building in our society a demand for the arts. In effect, arts education builds tomorrow’s appreciative and discerning audience. It teaches pupils the importance of resilience, determination and, yes, the need for courage. People used to be surprised when I spoke about courage at the university. However, what struck me quickly upon taking up that job was that arts students needed to have not only application and sustained effort but the courage to expose their work to criticism, some of it ill informed. That may, after all, be very good training for the next generation of politicians.
It helps pupils to work effectively in teams because art is rarely an isolated experience. Drama, dance, music and design are examples of where you need to work together to be successful, and that equips young people with another key life skill. It helps people to develop the ability to innovate and be creative beyond the boundaries of the creative arts. Our businesses need people who can be creative and think laterally. They need people capable of using their initiative—with the possible exception of the banking sector. They need people who have learnt the importance of challenging the accepted wisdom. Exposure to the arts and to the mindset of artists at an early age begins to build those invaluable capabilities. It also teaches you how to solve practical, not theoretical, problems. There is a danger that education can, too often, become concentrated on theories and not on practices.
Finally, your Lordships will be glad to hear, it provides the sheer joy of creative achievement. What can compare, for example, with being involved in a successful performance after weeks or months of rehearsals, setbacks, challenges and learning? That is a unique feeling, and one which will stay with you for the rest of your life.
I do not think that there is another subject which provides the same return on investment but it is essential that government recognise that, and recognise the arts as a core exam subject, as others have said, if that subject is not to become seen as second class. If it is seen as second class, teachers and students will walk away from it. They will vote with their feet. We have already had some statistics but it is worrying that the numbers of GCSE drama students has fallen by 25% in the past six years. Equally, it is important that Ofsted gives due regard to arts education in its inspections and more clearly defines what cultural development means, within the Ofsted guidance for inspectors, because we all know how significant Ofsted inspections are to schools. At present it is just one part of the spiritual, moral, social and cultural development and that is not good enough. We need to do better than that.
But I am in danger of proving my art teacher right and I do not want to detain the House unnecessarily; I want to end on a slightly lighter note. One of the things that people often tell you is that the arts cannot really cope with complex and difficult issues. Let me tell you that the arts are a way of helping young people to address the really complex and difficult issues. I have always loved the story, told by Sir Ken Robinson, of his going into a drawing class one day, sitting down alongside a young lad and saying, “And what are you drawing?” The young lad said, “I am drawing a picture of God”. Ken said, “But no one knows what God looks like”. The young lad responded, “Well, they will do in a few minutes’ time”. Never underestimate the power of the arts.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart (LD)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for a most informative speech. He gave us a lot of statistics about the decline in the teaching of the arts in recent years. I do not want to repeat what he has said, but the points that he made were very forceful and I hope that they will be noticed and taken into account by the Government in considering what their policy towards education in the arts should be.
Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, I was a very privileged schoolboy. I should like to speak about that and how it has affected me and my outlook. Before I do so I want to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, on a most passionate and informative speech. I look forward to hearing her in the future.
The privilege that I enjoyed was to be educated as a schoolboy at a private school in the west of Scotland, the Glasgow Academy, which at the time was the sole private school. The interest in the arts in that school was enormous. We had a school choir and when I started in it, it was led by the organist of Glasgow Cathedral. Subsequently we had another man who went to the University of Aberdeen and focused greatly on outreach, bringing in people who otherwise would not have the opportunities of the wider possibilities of the arts. I was entranced by the possibility of acting, but, with it being an all-boys’ school, as a young boy I was given largely female parts. I have acted as queen to King Richard II, Olivia in Twelfth Night and, in my last year, as Cinderella; but I also had the good fortune to be cast as Hamlet in my last year at school. I believe that this whole experience over the years gave me a greater degree of confidence than otherwise I would have had.
On the musical side, the head music teacher gave us all a big surprise when we came in on the first day of the first term, saying, “Under your desks there are 25 violins. I want you all to take them out and we will try to engage you in this”. The result was that a great many people went on to learn stringed instruments. I was lucky enough to become the leader of the school orchestra. I was very conscious of how privileged I was, and having heard this debate, which has been unanimously supportive of the arts in education, I would like to hear from the Minister in his reply how the Government will systematically restore the arts to their proper place in wider schooling and education.
We have had indications of the importance of creativity and the creative industries to the economy. It is not only true that this subject occupies many people and that there is a risk that this will decline if we do not stimulate education at the beginning, there is also another aspect: the arts bring in visitors from abroad and are hugely advantageous to our tourism. There is no city in the world like London in respect of its broad spectrum of arts, which cater for all visiting interests.
The extraordinary decline in professional arts teaching is something we must seriously regret. There are Ministers within the Government who are helpful in this. Edward Vaizey constantly talks about it and was reported earlier in the context of an article he had written with Michael Gove. However, the present Secretary of State for Education seems to be opposing the arts in favour of science. That is a great mistake. They are not exclusive. Indeed, music is highly mathematical. I cannot understand why the Secretary of State is indicating that if you do one, you cannot do the other. It is not inevitable that someone advantaged by education in the arts will be tied into an artistic career. For my part, I thought about it but decided to become a public international lawyer. Such a career was not excluded because I had spent a lot of time being involved in the arts. Even so, it is possible for people to proliferate their interests by becoming public international lawyers but also writing librettos and operas.
I commend that renaissance attitude to the Government and look forward greatly to hearing how the Minister believes that they should stimulate arts in education.
Baroness Warnock (CB)
My Lords, I join in thanking my noble friend for introducing this debate. I also join in congratulating our youngest Member on her maiden speech. We hope to hear much more from her, especially on the subject of teaching and the freedom that teachers in free schools may have to adapt and improve the balance that they can introduce into their schools.
I was also deeply moved by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Cashman. He took the subject that I was going to talk about briefly this evening. We have had many debates on arts education in the House. I normally find myself talking about music education, in which I have been involved since the golden age of instrumental teaching in the late 1950s and 1960s. I have continued to feel very strongly about the kind of opportunities that ought to be given to children and were given to them when the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, first picked up his violin from under his desk.
Today I want to say something about teaching the visual arts, although I feel rather ashamed of speaking in such an amateurish way, after hearing the extremely professional speeches of my noble friend Lady Kidron and the noble Baroness, Lady Nye. I pick on the visual arts simply because I think that, if a parent has a child who is enthusiastic and talented musically, it is usually possible, if you have the money, to find very good teaching outside school, even very good choirs and orchestras on Saturday mornings to fill the gaps that perhaps the school is not doing anything to fill.
In the case of the visual arts, it is very difficult to find any parallel way of getting your child taught art. In fact, you probably do not think of doing such a thing. I therefore believe that schools have an overwhelming responsibility for teaching children in the visual arts from a very early age. This is not only a matter of allowing children to have the fun and experience of self-expression. Some children do not particularly enjoy expressing themselves through the visual arts. However, a good teacher of art teaches children to look; to see things that they probably would not look at or see otherwise. A lot of us—grown-ups as well as children—scurry along the street or tear down the motorway without looking at what we are passing as we go. The talent of looking and seeing needs to be followed up with being taught—it needs teaching—the skill of representation, which is a very natural human instinct, as we know. Thousands of years ago, human beings were representing what they saw on the walls of caves and so on.
If children are not taught to see and properly look at things in school, they are being deprived of something that is almost like a new sense of what the world is like, what their place in it is, and how they can contribute to the things that people want to look at. Of course, this is not just a matter of teaching children to draw or to paint, although these skills are crucial, as any practising artist will tell you. You must be able to draw before you can do anything. It is also a matter of seeing what is a good design and what is a bad design. It does not matter whether the object is a chair, a building, a window or a cushion cover. The ability to look and to discriminate between something that is worth doing and something that is rubbish needs to start at a very early age and to be taught in school, because it will not be taught outside school. The failure of maintained schools to keep up this tradition of teaching art as an integral part of the curriculum is socially undesirable, if not disastrous.
Every Government has been in danger of this, and the present moment, with the utterances of the current Secretary of State, is a particularly good one to raise this point. Successive Governments have tended to take the attitude towards art teaching that Sir Keith Joseph once referred to as the “leather blotter view” of the arts. That is, a leather blotter may be an agreeable thing to be given, and you put it on your desk, but it is totally dispensable. Everybody can live without a leather blotter. That attitude is certainly exemplified in what we have most recently heard from the department, which I find incredibly depressing.
Therefore, let us, and the Government, give up that view. Otherwise, I fear that what will happen, which is happening increasingly, is that students who enter architectural schools and design colleges, join a national youth orchestra and maybe go on to become professional instrumentalists—all these people who enter the artistic world, which includes the world of design—will come from middle-class or relatively affluent families. That is not only grossly unfair to all the talent there is in children from disadvantaged backgrounds, but is the most appalling waste of talent. We have only to think of people such as the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, and David Hockney to realise that there is no class distinction in talent in the arts. We waste one of our greatest assets as a country if we fail to allow the disadvantaged end of the school population to benefit from the kind of teaching they ought to have. That is especially true in the case of the visual arts because, as I say, it is very difficult for any parent, however enthusiastic, to substitute for the teaching of the visual arts skills that their child ought to be getting at school.
Lord Moser (CB)
My Lords, I join my colleagues in thanking the noble Earl for introducing the debate, and not least for his opening remarks. I share his pessimism about the present situation at government level. We have a great deal to worry about; other speakers have given examples.
I look back to a bit of luck in the sense that for my first 13 years I lived in Berlin. I do not like to talk about those days for obvious reasons, but as regards the particular subject that we are discussing today, I wish that we were like Berlin in those days. It is very simple. The society as a whole—leaving aside Hitler and all that—always regarded music and the other arts as totally central to our lives. That was reflected in the schools, so my school life, in an ordinary state school in Berlin, was packed with all the arts, notably music. I was lucky in that respect because it was not just about playing but about participating in all possible ways. I was even luckier because when I came to this country at 13 my parents had the good sense to choose a school which was also passionate about the arts. All those who stress the importance of what happens in one’s early days are right. That is when it has to be started and also when one has a great deal to worry about.
I shall confine my remarks to two subjects. First, I shall say a few words about music, simply because it has been my passion and almost predominant activity during my long life. I declare an interest as a trustee, along with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, of the Paul Hamlyn Foundation, one of the major philanthropic foundations in this country. It has given a great deal of money to the arts for a very long time, partly due to its founder, Paul Hamlyn, who also came from Berlin and had a passion for the arts.
I recall a particular moment, about 12 years ago, not long before he died. I had become so worried and disappointed—and angry, in a way—because, if I remember the figures correctly, at that time only 11% of secondary school children went on with music beyond the moment when they were allowed to give it up. The rest just could not wait to give it up because it was badly taught and there was not much enthusiasm in society as a whole for the young to get into the arts. That led me to persuade Paul Hamlyn to give a great deal of money—many millions over the years—to what we came to call Musical Futures, which is a method of teaching music in a totally different and attractive way. Teachers had to be taught how to do it in a way that attracted youngsters. It has been running for 10 years in secondary schools and has succeeded quite well. Results have been good. It is now about to go private and will be replaced in our foundation by other activities related to arts education.
We started by inviting Katherine Zeserson from Sage Gateshead. She has written a wonderful report called Inspiring Music for All, which is the foundation for other things that we might now discuss and fund. It is clear from everything we know and from what others have said that part of the problem is the teaching profession. Teachers are poorly taught; they teach poorly and quite a few schools are without a head of music. It is a disgrace. There is a great deal to be done and we may set up a commission to deal with it.
My final point is that it is not simply about having more rather than fewer music teachers, or drama teachers, or literature teachers. It is not just that specialist teaching needs strengthening, it is also about the influence of the arts on the whole life of a school and on all the teachers and pupils. We must not think purely in terms of the specialist side of the subjects, although they are important. There is a great deal that can be done and, of course, what ultimately matters is the outside influence. The good news is that the BBC is getting more and more active—the local authorities less so—and the Government, as other colleagues have said, want this to be done. But it is a declining area when it ought to be a growing one.
Lord Smith of Finsbury (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I begin by expressing my interest as a patron of the BRIT school in Croydon and as chairman of trustees in the Wordsworth Trust and the Donmar Warehouse Theatre, both of which have substantial educational and school engagement programmes.
The case for the overwhelming importance of arts education in our schools has been compellingly made by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, in introducing this debate and by the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, in her excellent maiden speech and by all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. On a personal note, I add what a privilege it is to speak for the first time in a debate alongside the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, who has been a dear friend and comradely fellow campaigner for many years.
The case for the arts in education has also been compellingly made by Sir Ken Robinson in his outstanding report some 15 years ago, by Darren Henley in the two reports that he has produced more recently and by many other studies—as well, of course, by a multitude of successful examples in school after school up and down this country. Why on earth, therefore, is it not a more automatic part of the curriculum and rhythm of school life and educational provision in this country? Some schools shine, while many do not. It depends on individual teachers and head teachers and individual circumstances. It should not have to be a lottery; we should be aiming for all schools to shine in arts provision.
This is not just a nice to have thing—it is an essential. I say this for two fundamental reasons. First, education is all about drawing young people to fulfilling their fullest potential in all senses and ways, and that has to include engagement in the arts, culture and creativity. It is about lifting horizons and exploring new ways in which to see and understand the world. It is about understanding humanity and emotion and what makes us all the people we are; that is what education is all about and it is what the arts fundamentally can offer to education.
I take just one simple example, taking place out of school rather than in school, but the principle is exactly the same, a thing called the Hartcliffe Boys Dance Company, started in Bristol many years ago by a visionary man called Vic Ecclestone. Instead of lowering horizons for the teenage boys on the Hartcliffe estate in south Bristol, an area of enormous deprivation, he decided to lift their horizons and introduced them to the power of modern dance. Not only that, but he persuaded them to write, perform, choreograph and video an opera about the Prometheus myth.
This was not teaching kids how to be a good DJ; it was about really challenging them—lifting their horizons and enhancing their life skills. The excitement and the sense of achievement and self-worth that they were able to achieve through this transformed not only their lives but the entire estate that they lived on. This is incalculably rewarding. It ought to be part of the warp and weft of our education provision, for whoever, from whatever background, to benefit from.
Let us not forget the importance of creativity in subsequent employment and career opportunities, either. This is not just about the creative industries, devoted though I have been for many years to the promotion of their role in our economy. They are, of course, hugely important, and account for about 6% to 7% of our national economy. Creativity matters elsewhere across the economy as well, in all other businesses and public organisations.
Yet what do we do about creativity for our school pupils? We squeeze it out of them. A child of five will sing and dance, express themselves, paint and make music with free abandon and enormous creativity. We then spend the next 10 years of their educational experience teaching them that that is not important. It is, and we should teach them that it is. We should encourage children to continue with creative spirit, if they have it.
I have one more thing to say. When I was Secretary of State for Culture, I was very proud to have established what we called the creative partnerships programme. It was about linking artists, performers, creative businesses, directors and producers with schools in some of the most deprived areas of this country. It gave pupils the chance not only to experience and learn, and to enjoy the arts, but to practise the arts: to direct a play, to make a movie, to compose a piece of music, to design a dance—and to paint, to act, to dance, to design and to make music. It was not just about enjoyment and experience and preparation for creative careers; it was also about enabling the whole of the rest of the school to benefit from the experience that those pupils were having. In Ofsted inspection after Ofsted inspection, the schools that were part of the creative partnerships programme outperformed other schools by miles. That programme has now been abandoned. I was very sorry to see it go, and I hope that one day, either it or something very like it may be put in place once again, to lift the lives of countless pupils up and down the country.
Lord Aberdare (CB)
My Lords, I join in the congratulations to my noble friend the Earl of Clancarty on obtaining this excellent debate, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, on her splendidly well judged maiden speech. I declare my interest as a member of several music-related all-party groups, including the Parliament Choir; my membership of the latter may mean that I have a rather limited amount of voice left after the concert last night. Apart from that, I could probably have outdone the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, in terms of my total lack of artistic talent in my schooldays.
At this stage in the debate much of what I planned to say has already been said, which I regret may not prevent me from repeating it, probably a good deal less eloquently. I share the concern expressed about the recent words of the Secretary of State for Education, which I will not repeat again but with which I profoundly disagree. STEM subjects are vital, not least in developing skills needed for employment, and we need more young people to study them to a higher level. However, they are not alternatives to arts and humanities subjects but complementary to them. We need from our education system rounded individuals with not just STEM-based skills but the sorts of skills better developed by arts subjects including creativity, imagination, innovation, team work, discipline, self-esteem and entrepreneurship. I agree entirely that the emphasis should be on STEAM, not STEM.
There is no shortage of evidence, both anecdotal and research-based, for the beneficial effects of arts education. Much of that was set out in a very helpful Library note produced for this debate. The list of benefits cited in research is a long one. Beyond those skills that I have just mentioned, it includes reading skills, general literacy, language acquisition, maths, visual and spatial intelligence, working memory, brain plasticity—whatever that may be—thinking skills, personal and social development, confidence and motivation to study. That is just a selection that I took from the literature. Many of those skills are recognised, not least by employers, as key skills for the digital economy of the future.
Perhaps in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, I might remind noble Lords that the Trinity Laban Conservatoire of Music and Dance, which he chairs, is ranked third of 154 higher education institutions in the country for employment, with 98.8% of UK-domiciled students in jobs or further study six months after graduating. Of the two institutions ahead of that one, both with a score of 100%, one is the Royal College of Music. So much for arts and humanities not helping to enhance employability.
I will now focus more specifically on music and ask whether our schoolchildren are getting what they deserve in music education, and indeed what they are promised by the Government’s commendable and visionary national plan for music education. There are many excellent and inspiring music education activities and initiatives around the country. On Monday I attended an outreach programme supported by the Worshipful Company of Musicians at Argyle Primary School in Kings Cross, one of 84 outreach programmes this year. Two groups of children listened in thrall to a young violinist from Estonia talking about and demonstrating her instrument. Many of those children, mostly either Bangladeshi or Somali, were themselves learning to play the violin, while others were learning the tin whistle. Apparently, that reflected the interests of the previous teacher with a passion for the ceilidh.
The pianist James Rhodes’s “Don’t Stop the Music” campaign on Channel 4 included an instrument amnesty, which led to more than 3,000 instruments being pledged for donation to 150 schools so that their students could learn on them. This morning I visited the Royal Opera House Thurrock, which is involved in an impressive range of education programmes, including the new Thurrock Trailblazer project initially involving 21 local schools, with plans to extend to all 52 schools in the borough.
I have heard about numerous other brilliant initiatives backed by the BBC, the Mayor of London, the City of London, Sistema England, the Paul Hamlyn Foundation and many more, not forgetting the DfE itself and the Arts Council. There are lots of good news stories, yet the whole seems somehow to add up to less than the sum of its parts. A review published in July for the Paul Hamlyn Foundation found that,
“the quality and reach of schools-based music education is still unacceptably variable and inconsistent—at both primary and secondary”.
As we have heard, the numbers taking music GCSEs are down from almost 54,000 in 2007-08 to about 42,000 in 2013-14. A recent ABRSM report states that:
“Sustained, progressive music education tends to be the preserve of children born to wealthier parents … 40% of children from the lower social grades who have never played an instrument said they had no opportunity to learn at school”,
yet Arts Council research shows that students from low-income families who take part in arts activities at school are three times more likely to get a degree. I have a number of questions to ask the Minister focusing on the music education plan, but also relevant to other arts education more widely.
First, what can he do to ensure that Ofsted takes music and arts education more formally into account in its inspections? We know how important Ofsted inspection results are in determining priorities for schools, so why can it not be made a requirement for a school to offer good or outstanding music and arts provision in order for it to be rated good or outstanding overall? That might also help to convince some of the more sceptical head teachers and governors about the merits of arts education.
Secondly, what steps will he take to improve the availability of teachers with the necessary training and skills to teach music or art? The shortage of skilled, confident music and arts teachers is a constant refrain, yet I understand that, for example, the primary teaching module that was developed as part of the national plan for music education receives no funding from the department.
Thirdly, what can be done to improve the availability of information about what is actually happening in schools across the country to identify areas of weakness and to disseminate and promote good practice? The monitoring board originally set up as part of the national plan has been redesignated as a cultural education board, but nothing has been published on its actual views about the progress being made.
Fourthly, what can the department do to broaden the impact of schemes such as “Don’t Stop the Music”, so that more schools benefit from them? The national plan needs to embrace such initiatives, so as to enhance its effectiveness in reaching those parts that have so far proved difficult to reach.
Lastly, what can be done to ensure that the available funding addresses the challenges posed by geographical areas and categories of students that are currently not getting the benefits that they should, and also to reassure music education hubs that they can plan ahead in the confidence that their funding is likely to continue at its current level beyond 2016? I look forward to the Minister’s response and, following his encouraging answers to the first Question this morning, which I was sorry to miss, perhaps he should consider giving it in Latin.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I do not think I am going to rise to that challenge. It is a pleasure to respond to this debate and I thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for giving us the opportunity to raise these crucial issues, despite the air of pessimism that we seem to have engendered as the debate has gone on. I feel that I am among old friends here, with some new conscripts added. I particularly welcome the contribution of my noble friend Lord Cashman, whose personal testimony and insight this afternoon captivated us. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, for her incisive and articulate maiden speech. I look forward, given her education background, to debating education policy with her at length in the future.
I mentioned old friends from around the Chamber, because when we have debated these issues in the past, we have reached a wide degree of consensus about the value of the arts and creativity in their own right—an importance that I think we all agree needs to be grounded in education from an early age. We also acknowledge its wide reach into our economy, our health and well-being and our society as a whole. As a number of noble Lords have said today, the creative industries have been acknowledged to be growing three times as fast as the national economy, and now make a contribution of more than £71 billion. So it is a worthwhile cause in itself.
However we measure it and through whatever prism we view the contribution of the arts, their significance to our society is impressive. In previous debates on the arts, Ministers responding have agreed with the central premise. How could they not, since the evidence is overwhelming? I am sure that the Minister will do so again today and will give us examples of some lovely projects and initiatives that have been introduced in schools during this Government’s reign. It would be churlish not to welcome them, and we do—but, sadly, they do not make up for the more substantial losses affecting arts education overall. As the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, said, they should be the icing on the cake, not the cake. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said, when there is a piecemeal distribution, we risk cultural capital becoming the preserve of the elite and the privileged. We are in danger of that now.
Ultimately, the Government will be judged by their overall record of support for the arts—and, as we have heard as the debate has gone on, this has left us with a series of very serious questions. For example, we have debated several times the effect that the disastrous reorganisation of the curriculum has had on the teaching of arts subjects. In retrospect, it was clearly a mistake to announce an EBacc system that gave no priority to arts subjects.While this has now been supplanted by the Progress 8 and Attainment 8 measures, which have slightly more flexibility, the take-up of arts subjects at GCSE is continuing to fall. Meanwhile, the important issue of discounting the value of arts subjects against each other continues to rumble on, with an inevitable negative impact on the take-up of certain arts subjects. To compound the problem, teacher-training places in arts education have been cut by 35%, as we have heard, with specialist arts teachers inevitably being cut and affecting the quality of teaching at all key stages in the future.
Yet we have heard from several noble Lords about the transformative impact that an inspiring, qualified art teacher had on them. We have also heard that arts activity at primary level has been cut by almost a third and after-school cultural activities are also being cut back. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, that hot-housing at primary level and the lack of play have a corrosive effect that needs to be addressed.
Thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, we had an excellent debate on music hubs a couple of weeks ago—a policy which at that time we all supported. But even there the Minister was forced to admit that, despite some notable exemplars, their coverage was patchy and that disadvantaged children were particularly losing out in the provision.
What are we to make of Nicky Morgan’s more recent speech to which noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and others referred? Will the Minister let us know if he agrees with her comments? Of course we want to encourage more young people, particularly girls, to study more STEM subjects, but you do not do it by rubbishing arts and humanities and saying that they will not lead to decent careers. After all, 34% of chief executives from FTSE 100 companies have an arts background. How could she get the message so wrong, and what does this tell us about the Government’s commitment to arts subjects in the future?
Surely what we want to encourage is a broad education which embraces a mixture of arts and science, literally transforming STEM to STEAM with the arts taking their rightful place, perhaps even with universities offering more courses that combine arts and science disciplines. I applaud the joint master’s degree initiative at the University of London to which my noble friend Lady Nye referred. More of those sorts of courses should be offered. We want young people to be both creative and analytical and to have an education which ceases to stereotype them by the subjects they study and builds on their individuality.
As the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, said, investment in arts education is more than the sum of its parts. We all seem to have quoted Professor Ken Robinson this afternoon, and I have my favourite quote, which is that,
“creativity, like learning in general, is a highly personal process. We all have different talents and aptitudes and different ways of getting to understand things. Raising achievement in schools means leaving room for these differences and not prescribing a standard steeplechase for everyone to complete at the same time and in the same way”.
Surely this quote captures the very creativity that will shape our lives in future.
That is the real challenge to this Government going forward. As several noble Lords pointed out, it is also that creativity that employers are craving their employees to demonstrate; it is obvious that film-makers need digital and visual literacy, that drama teaches confidence and communication, that engineers also need to be designers, that scientists need innovation skills and that craft skills are crucial for practical application.
So what would an alternative approach to arts education look like? It would make it a priority that that every child should have the opportunity to engage in the arts throughout their education, and we are consulting on how to make that happen. It would ensure that children from disadvantaged families do not miss out in the knowledge that access to high-quality arts and culture helps to close the attainment gap in educational outcomes. It would give every child a regular programme of access to the arts to see theatre and dance productions, to hear a wide variety of music and to visit museums and galleries. It would give every child opportunities to express themselves: taking part in art, drama, music and theatre, and learning how to perform on stage and create their own art.
It would reverse the negative messages about the importance of the arts in the performance and attainment measures and reject the binary choice between science and the arts. It would review the implementation of the music hub programme and consider how the aspiration that every child should learn a musical instrument and experience whole-class ensemble teaching could really be achieved. It would be imaginative in using new technology to support children’s creative learning. It would consider whether Ofsted should be able to rate a school as outstanding if it does not provide an outstanding cultural and arts education. It would build on the proposals for wrap-around education for primary schools from 8 am to 6 pm, and develop an exciting programme of extracurricular cultural activities, welcoming arts experts into the school to run workshops and short courses. It would also work with the Arts Council and the National Skills Agency to provide more high-quality apprenticeships, as an alternative to university, in the arts and culture sectors.
The previous Government had a great record of promoting and supporting the arts. Their achievements are too many to list here, although a number of my noble friends have already done so. However, those working and learning in the sector know our values and our record and will have confidence that we can deliver for them again. I will be interested to hear whether the Minister supports our aspirations for arts education provision in the future and I look forward to his response.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, I join others in congratulating the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, on securing a debate on this important subject. I also congratulate the other speakers on their contributions. In particular, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, on her eloquent maiden speech. We have worked closely together on free schools and I have been immensely impressed by her judgment and analysis. I am sure that she will make a very valuable contribution to your Lordships’ House.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Nye, mentioned, many noble Lords will have seen the book, The Virtuous Circle, by Sir John Sorrell, Darren Henley and Paul Roberts, published earlier this month. It makes the argument that cultural and creative activities and learning should form a vital part of the everyday lives of all young people. It is a compelling argument and I commend it to your Lordships. However, most of us already know that a rich cultural and creative learning experience is an essential part of a good education, particularly for those disadvantaged pupils who may otherwise have a cultural deficit which will hold them back. That point has been made by many, including Diane Abbott, who has articulated it so eloquently.
The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, referred to the danger of the arts becoming the province of the rich. Sadly, it is true that that has, proportionately, been the case for some time. This is the most socially immobile country in the developed world. That is why the Government are particularly focused on improving the life chances of disadvantaged children and arresting the decline in academic and cultural education which took place under the previous Government.
No one should be in any doubt that the Government fully accept the case for arts education in schools. We recognise the arts as an integral part of children’s development, and believe strongly that every child should experience a high-quality arts and music education throughout their time in school. The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and others made the case that arts subjects should have an equal place in the curriculum. Arts subjects do have the same status as many other important subjects. To answer some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, music, art and design are statutory subjects in the national curriculum, so every child in a maintained school must study these subjects from the ages of five to 14. Singing is included in the national curriculum. Pupils must also study drama as part of their English studies, as well as dance. Dance has been a compulsory element in the curriculum at key stages 1 and 2 for some time and, since September, it has been compulsory at key stage 3.
It would not be appropriate, of course, to force students to study arts subjects at key stage 4. Children need to choose options that reflect their individual interests, strengths and future career choices. Children do not have to study arts subjects at key stage 4, nor do they have to study humanities, languages or design and technology. However, all children in maintained schools must be offered the opportunity to study history or geography, a modern foreign language and design and technology. They must also be offered the opportunity to study at least one subject from the arts entitlement area, which includes music, art and design, drama, dance and media arts. These are not soft subjects; they combine creativity and practical skills with academic rigour. Our reform of GCSE and A-level exams is designed to ensure that all exams are equally challenging.
The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and others asked about the role of Ofsted. All state-funded schools are required to offer a broad and balanced curriculum which promotes the spiritual, moral, cultural, mental and physical development of pupils, and Ofsted inspects against that. It is currently consulting on increasing the emphasis in the inspection framework given to the breadth of the curriculum.
Prior to January 2012, inspections included a minimum of 27 graded judgments with four additional early-years foundation judgments and four additional sixth-form judgments for schools with these settings. We slimmed down the number of judgments from a maximum of 35 to four to focus Ofsted inspections more clearly, and that was warmly welcomed. However, we will be interested to see the outcome of the consultation.
The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and others mentioned changes in relation to accountability measures and how they will affect arts subjects. From 2016, the Government will remove the existing headline attainment measure of pupils achieving five or more A to C grades at GCSE, including English and maths, which has encouraged schools to place far too much emphasis on lifting pupils over the C/D borderline. The shadow Secretary of State has acknowledged the mistake of the previous Government in focusing exams far too much on what he called the great crime of the C/D borderline. We have introduced the EBacc as a first step to a fairer accountability system.
I have listened to many speeches stating that the arts have been downgraded by this Government. I have stated that that is not the case and I will statistically disprove it shortly, but we must also recognise our starting point. This Government came to power facing some depressing facts about our education system. We started from an extremely low base. We slumped down the education international league tables under the previous Government and, at the end of last year, the OECD told us that our 2012 school leavers—Labour’s children—were the most illiterate in the developed world, coming 24th out of 24 countries for literacy and 21st out of 24 for numeracy. That is shocking.
Under the previous Government, the number of pupils taking a core suite of academic subjects fell from 50% to 22%. In my view, that Government practised the greatest confidence trick ever perpetrated on the British public; namely, the scandal of the misuse of equivalents, under which subjects that were of little real value were overvalued in the GCSE equivalent tables. Subjects such as a higher-level BTEC diploma in fish husbandry were equivalent to four GCSEs, despite the fact that there were no exams and it was all coursework. Other favourites of mine are cake decorating and hazard control. We have stopped that and, thanks to the policy of this Government and partly to the EBacc, the number of pupils now taking a core suite of academic subjects—so essential to those pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds to make up for cultural deficits—is now back up by 64%. The assumption that under this Government the curriculum has changed from one that is rich in the arts for many students to one that is not so rich is false. Under this Government, it has changed from one which for so many pupils consisted of a curriculum of English, maths and some low-value so-called vocational subjects to one that is far broader in terms of academic and cultural subjects. That is the reality.
A number of noble Lords, including the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, talked about the effect of the EBacc, and the fact that it has led to a fall in the number of pupils taking GCSE music and to a decline in other arts subjects. I am pleased to have the opportunity to put the record straight. The number of GCSEs taken across all subjects has fallen nationally since 2010 as the cohort has reduced and as more children have taken vocational exams. Therefore, it is no surprise that the number taking GCSEs in music and the arts has fallen. Since 2010, the number of entries in all key stage 4 exams in music has gone up by 7%, in art and design by 4% and in drama by 3%. The average number of key stage 4 exam entries in arts subjects per pupil has stayed level since 2010. In 2014, more year 11 pupils took GCSEs in arts subjects than in 2013, including more than 3% more in music, 6% more in art, 10% more in performing and expressive arts, and 11% more in media, film and TV studies.
That is possibly the result of the fact that we are now introducing the new Progress 8 measure, which will be the only measure used for secondary school floor standards. This will look at pupils’ progress over eight subjects—English, maths, three further EBacc subjects and three other high-value qualifications. Up to three arts subjects per pupil, including music—the noble Lord, Lord Moser, will be pleased to hear—will count, as will grade music exams at grade 6 and above. Including eight subjects will encourage schools to offer a broad and balanced curriculum, rather than to focus their attention on only five subjects. As a result, schools will have a greater incentive to offer a range of arts subjects, to allow pupils to study more than one arts subject, and to teach those subjects well. The average number of GCSEs or the equivalent that pupils take is now more than 11, so pupils will be studying a broader sweep of subjects than eight and it is likely that many of them will be arts subjects.
The new progress measures will also incentivise schools to focus on improving the grades of all pupils, and coasting schools with strong intakes will be encouraged to get the best from their pupils. The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, referred to the recent speech of the Education Secretary on STEM, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. I do not think that the Secretary of State thinks that STEM subjects are necessarily more useful than the arts and humanities, but we need to improve the take-up of STEM subjects, as we are doing. We believe that a balance of STEM subjects, humanities and arts subjects will equip pupils to thrive in modern Britain. Indeed, the Secretary of State is a great believer in building character, for the formation of which a curriculum rich in the arts is so important.
It is important for pupils to study the arts for a variety of reasons. The noble Lord, Lord Bichard, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, spoke about the contribution that the arts make to the UK economy and the skills that are needed by the creative industries. My noble friend Lady Evans, the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, and others suggested that studying arts subjects has a positive impact on a variety of skills that all employers find attractive: teamworking, confidence and communication skills. These are important, but they are not the whole story. Participation in the arts helps build character. Children and young people who apply themselves learn the value and rewards that come from hard work and practice.
Even without all those benefits, however, we believe that arts subjects are worthy of study in their own right. They are part of our cultural heritage. Children’s education is not complete until they have learnt to dance and to take part in drama, or until they have learnt to draw, paint and work with clay and other materials. It is not complete until they have learnt to sing, play a musical instrument and compose, or until they can understand staff notation, without which many musical doors will remain closed to them. All children should have the chance to study the work of great artists, craft-makers and designers, the work of great composers and musicians, and the work of William Shakespeare, the greatest of English playwrights.
Today, people of all ages still enjoy singing, dancing, playing instruments, acting and making art. The latest Taking Part survey shows that 99% of children aged five to15 have engaged with the arts in 2013-14. The recent Making Music report by the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music shows that more children than ever are playing musical instruments: 76% of five to 14 year-olds say they know how to play a musical instrument. That is up from 41% in 1999. However, 15% of five to 17 year-olds said that they had never played an instrument, and 40% of the children from lower socioeconomic groups who have never played an instrument said they had no opportunity to learn one at school. We need this to improve. A child’s economic background should not determine whether they are able to play a musical instrument, or whether they are able to continue to play and make progress.
Our music education hubs were set up with four core roles: to ensure that every child aged five to 18 has the opportunity to learn a musical instrument through whole-class ensemble teaching programmes; to ensure that clear progression routes are available and affordable to all young people; to provide opportunities to play in ensembles and to perform; and to develop a singing strategy to ensure that every pupil sings regularly and that choirs and other vocal ensembles are available in the area. The hubs will receive at least £17 million more in 2015-16 than they did in 2014-15 to help them make a reality of this vision. Schools need to play their part, too, by providing opportunities for pupils to sing in choirs and play in orchestras. There are many examples of good practice, and it is wonderful when we can celebrate them.
Earlier this month, at the School Proms at the Royal Albert Hall, in front of an audience of thousands, Katie Crozier from Brampton Village Primary School in Cambridgeshire was awarded with the Classic FM primary music teacher of the year award. When she started at the school, there were eight singers in the choir and no orchestra. Six years on, there is a choir of more than 100 and an orchestra of more than 50. What a wonderful difference one teacher can make.
Secondary schools will, by their nature, have specialist teachers in the arts, as they do in other subjects, but some schools are specialising even more. The noble Lord, Lord Smith, mentioned the BRIT School: an independent, state-funded city college for the technology of the arts, dedicated to educational and vocational training for performing arts, media, art and design and the technologies that make performance possible.
The noble Baroness, Lady Evans, mentioned the East London Arts and Music school and the Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts, a free school. We have funded a further five free schools specialising in the arts, several UTCs and nine studio schools specialising in the arts. My department supports a number of initiatives in addition to those provided by the music hubs designed to ensure that young people have access to good quality music education, which the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, mentioned.
We support In Harmony, a national programme that aims to inspire and transform the lives of children in six deprived communities, using the power and disciplines of community-based orchestral music-making. We support Music for Youth, a national music education charity providing free access to performance and audience opportunities for thousands of young musicians across the UK, and we support the national youth music organisations such as the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain, which provides opportunities for the most talented musicians to perform at a high level.
In addition, our music and dance scheme enables exceptionally talented musicians and dancers to achieve their full potential by funding full-time education at eight specialist schools. They include the Royal Ballet School, the Yehudi Menuhin School, Elmhurst School for Dance and the Purcell School, which was home to the winner of this year’s “Young Musician of the Year” competition, Martin James Bartlett. The music and dance scheme also funds training at a network of 21 music and dance centres of advanced training across the country, including the junior departments of all the English music conservatoires. Jointly with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, we fund students aged 16 to 23 through the Dance and Drama Awards to attend a range of 19 specialist dance and drama schools.
Those schemes are great ways to ensure that talented pupils from all backgrounds are able to achieve their potential. We also fund a wider range of cultural education programmes: the Sorrell Foundation’s Saturday art and design clubs, which provide opportunities for 14 to 16 year-olds to study art and design every Saturday morning at their local university or college for free; the British Film Institute’s Film Academy for budding young film-makers aged 16 to 19; the National Youth Dance Company; and a museums and schools programme that aims to increase the number of high-quality educational visits by school pupils from areas which currently have lower than average cultural engagement; the heritage schools programme, run by English Heritage; and an expansion of the Arts Council’s bridge organisations.
In total, we are spending more than £340 million in the three years from 2012 to 2015 on music and arts education programmes. We will be announcing funding for 2015-16 shortly.
The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, mentioned teachers. The proportion of music ITT trainees with at least a 2.1 has increased substantially. Now, 82% of them have a 2.1, which has risen since 2011-12 by 13%. We have increased the range of bursaries; we offer £9,000 for those with a first-class degree. The Government have supported teaching schools to designate 145 specialist leaders of education in arts subjects.
The noble Baroness, Lady Nye, asked about the teaching and learning of drawing. We have improved the emphasis on drawing in the new national curriculum. In key stage 1, children must be taught to use drawing to develop and share their ideas, experiences and imagination. We have also improved the emphasis on drawing in the proposed content for the new art and design GCSE, which requires students to demonstrate an ability to use drawing skills.
The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, mentioned discounting codes. As he acknowledged, we changed discounting codes for drama and dance and art and photography, and I believe he welcomed this. If evidence is presented as to why other arts areas are distinct enough, we will of course review the discounting codes.
I hope your Lordships will agree that, together with the policies I have already outlined, this package of programmes demonstrates our strong commitment to arts education. Once again I thank all noble Lords for participating in this important debate.
The Earl of Clancarty
My Lords, I thank every noble Lord who has spoken in this debate. I particularly congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, on a very valuable contribution, and extend a warm welcome to the noble Lord, Lord Cashman.
I need to say that the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd-Webber, very much wanted to be here today to talk about his work with schools, but was unable to because of other commitments. However, hot off the press as it were, he has given me a quote which I think makes an interesting observation:
“There is currently no legislation that ensures every child has an entitlement to high quality arts provision throughout their education. High quality teaching and in depth experiences benefits not just individuals, but schools, communities and the wider economy”.
That chimes with the fundamental point that many noble Lords have made: that a good arts education is a necessity. This is apart from the huge importance of the arts and creative industries to our economy, a fact many noble Lords rightly emphasised.
I thank the Minister for giving a comprehensive reply to this debate and answering many noble Lords’ questions. We can certainly argue about the statistics. Significant concern about the future of arts education in schools has been expressed today from all sides of the House. Many have said that the arts need to have a central role in the curriculum. I hope that the Government will take away these concerns and reflect on them carefully. I beg to move.
Maternity and Parental Leave etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2014
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
That the draft regulations laid before the House on 13 and 23 October be approved.
Relevant documents: 9th and 11th Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 25 November.
Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 2014
Lord Ashton of Hyde
That the draft order laid before the House on 24 November be approved.
Relevant document: 14th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, it may be useful if I give the House some background to this order. The Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre—JTAC—has raised the threat level for international terrorism from “Substantial” to “Severe”, as it assesses that a terrorist attack on the United Kingdom is highly likely. The House will be aware that earlier this week the Home Secretary stated that we believe that more than 500 British nationals have travelled to Syria and Iraq and thousands from other European and western countries have joined them. The threat from ISIL is clear. It is one of the most serious security challenges we face today. However, it is not the only threat we face, and your Lordships will know that the groups before your Lordships today operate in Libya and Egypt as well as in Syria.
In Libya, violence and instability have provided an environment for groups such as Ansar Al-Sharia–Benghazi to operate. Syria and Iraq have become the crucible of terror and violence in which groups such as Jaysh al Khalifatu Islamiya, al-Nusra Front and ISIL operate. Egypt has seen a significant increase in criminal activity and terrorist attacks on police and security forces by groups such as Ajnad Misr and Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis.
We can never entirely eliminate the threat from terrorism, but we are determined to do all that we can to minimise the threat from terrorism to the UK and our interests abroad. Additionally, it is important that we demonstrate our support for other members of the international community in their efforts to tackle terrorism, wherever it occurs. Proscription is an important part of the Government’s strategy to tackle terrorist activities.
The three groups named in the order are: first, Ansar al-Sharia-Benghazi, or AAS-B, also known as Partisans of Islamic Law; secondly, Ajnad Misr, also known as Soldiers of Egypt; and, thirdly, Jaysh al Khalifatu Islamiya, or JKI, also known as Army of the Islamic Caliphate. We propose to add these groups to the list of international terrorist organisations, amending Schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act 2000. This is the 16th proscription order under that Act. As noble Lords will appreciate, I am unable to comment on specific intelligence. However, I can provide a brief summary of each group’s activities in turn.
Ansar al-Sharia-Benghazi, or AAS-B, is a Sunni Islamist militia group that has an anti-Western stance and advocates the implementation of strict Sharia law. AAS-B is involved in terrorist attacks against civilian targets, frequent assassinations, and attempted assassinations of security officials and political actors in eastern Libya. On 11 September 2012, members of AAS-B took part in the attack against the US special mission and annex in Benghazi, killing the US ambassador and three other Americans. AAS-B continues to pose a threat to Libya and Western interests and is alleged to have links to the proscribed organisation Ansar al-Sharia-Tunisia and al-Qaeda. The US designated AAS-B as a terrorist organisation in January 2014 and the UN listed the group on 19 November.
Ajnad Misr is a jihadist group based in Egypt. The group is believed to be a splinter group of Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis, or ABM, which was proscribed on 4 April. Ajnad Misr has stated that it seeks to protect Egyptian Muslims and avenge alleged abuse against them by the Egyptian security services. Ajnad Misr is believed to have been active since 20 November 2013, when it attacked an Egyptian checkpoint. The group announced its establishment on 23 January 2014 and has claimed responsibility for a number of attacks on the Egyptian security forces since 2013, including the attack in April at Cairo University that resulted in the death of a policeman and injured three others, and the bomb attack near the foreign ministry in Cairo that killed three police officers in September. The Egyptian authorities banned Ajnad Misr in May 2014.
Jaysh al Khalifatu Islamiya, or JKI, is an Islamist jihadist group active in Syria. The group consists predominately of Chechen fighters. JKI has assisted al-Nusra Front and ISIL in conducting attacks. In February 2014 Abdul Waheed Majeed, a British individual linked to the group, carried out a suicide attack on a prison in Aleppo, resulting in prisoner escapes.
Section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2000 provides a power for the Home Secretary to proscribe an organisation if she believes that it is currently concerned in terrorism. If the statutory test is met, the Home Secretary may exercise her discretion to proscribe the organisation. In considering whether to exercise this discretion, the Home Secretary takes a number of factors into account. These are: the nature and scale of an organisation’s activities; the specific threat that it poses to the United Kingdom and to British nationals overseas; the organisation’s presence in the United Kingdom; and the need to support other members of the international community in tackling terrorism.
Proscription, in effect, outlaws a listed organisation and makes it unable to operate in the UK. Belonging to, inviting support for or arranging a meeting in support of a proscribed organisation is a criminal offence, as is wearing clothing or carrying articles in public that arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation. Proscription can also support other disruptive activity, such as the use of immigration powers, including exclusion, prosecutions for other offences, messaging to deter fundraising and recruitment and EU asset freezes. Additionally, any assets of a proscribed group are liable to seizure as terrorist assets.
The Home Secretary exercises her power to proscribe only after a thorough review of the available relevant information and evidence on the organisation. This includes open source material, intelligence material and advice that reflects consultation across government, including with the intelligence and law enforcement agencies. The cross–Whitehall proscription review group supports the Home Secretary in her decision-making process. The Home Secretary’s decision to proscribe is taken only after great care and consideration of the particular case and it is appropriate that it must be approved by both Houses.
Having carefully considered all the evidence, the Home Secretary believes that AAS-B, Ajnad Misr and JKI are currently concerned in terrorism and that it is appropriate to exercise her discretion to proscribe them.
Lord Triesman (Lab)
My Lords, I support this order. I have a couple of questions, on the basis that this at least was familiar terrain to me at an earlier stage. I thank the Minister for his detailed and helpful description of the purpose.
As the three organisations were being described, it was clear that there had been a considerable period in which there had been a review of their activities and a review against the standards that the Home Secretary applies in making the judgment and then seeking the view of the cross-Whitehall group. In one case—I think it was that of AAS-B—this discussion follows fairly closely on a decision that has been taken by the United Nations. In the case of the other groups, the issues seem to have been discussed in international fora relatively earlier.
My anxiety—it is no more than that—about which I am seeking clarification is whether it is not possible for the UK Government to move relatively faster when threats from these kinds of groups materialise. I recognise and respect the concept of thoroughness, and most certainly it should never be done in a way that does not take full account of all the facts. However, it may be that the reality is that a number of these groups have been operating in a hostile way for rather longer than we should tolerate, and in those circumstances there may be an argument for a methodology that gives more pace to what is required for the security of our country.
I ask that not because I want anyone to abandon thoroughness or the Home Secretary to take precipitate decisions that do not make sense—I would not advocate that—but I want to make sure that at the very earliest moment the calibration of threat shows that the people of this country, and those with whom we also have interests through our alliances and through other routes, are protected. Is there a view that the process could be faster? I hope that that is a simple point, which I make in support of the order being sought.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the purpose of, and need for, this order, which we support. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Bates, for his letter to my noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon, setting out the reasons for the order.
As the Opposition, we are obviously limited in the response we can make, since we do not have access to the intelligence that presumably has led the Home Secretary to go down the road that she wishes to take. The Explanatory Memorandum sets out some information about the three organisations that are covered by this order and will be proscribed under Section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2000. They are considered to be organisations that commit or participate in acts of terrorism, prepare for, promote or encourage terrorism, or are otherwise concerned in terrorism. The Terrorism Act 2006 also included in the grounds for proscription organisations that unlawfully glorify the commission or preparation of acts of terrorism.
These organisations appear to have been involved in activities justifying proscription for a little while, the point made by my noble friend Lord Triesman. One was involved, as the Minister said, in an attack that killed the US ambassador and three other Americans in Libya more than two years ago. Why has the Home Secretary decided to lay the order now, rather than at an earlier date?
The report earlier this week from the Intelligence and Security Committee referred to difficulties expressed by the Metropolitan Police in prosecuting charges for membership of a proscribed organisation, and it appears that there have been very few such successful prosecutions. Why is this the case? Presumably, an order such as the one that we are discussing comes about because there is hard evidence of the terrorist-related activities and aims of these organisations, and evidence that there are people who are active in these organisations. Why is it, then, that once an organisation has been proscribed, the evidence that must surely have been accumulated to justify the proscription order in the first place is not then used as the basis for making the case to prosecute successfully at least some of those presumably involved in those organisations? It would be helpful if the Minister could say why successful prosecutions appear to be the case very infrequently. Can he also provide, now or subsequently, information on the number of people who have been, first, prosecuted and, secondly, successfully prosecuted under each of the 15 orders that have previously been laid under the terms of the Terrorism Act 2000 for supporting, belonging to, inviting support for or arranging a meeting to support a proscribed organisation? The point of these questions is simply to try to establish exactly what, and how much, these orders are achieving in reality.
There is also provision under the Terrorism Act 2000 for the Secretary of State to remove an organisation from the list of proscribed organisations. How often has this happened, and in respect of which organisations? If no one has been prosecuted for membership of a particular proscribed organisation, either at all or within the past few years, would that be regarded by the Government as a reason for considering the removal of that organisation from the list? Are the Government satisfied that the organisations already proscribed still represent a terrorist threat to this country, and do the Government regularly review the situation to satisfy themselves that the case still remains for organisations already there to continue to be on the proscribed list?
Do the three organisations that we are discussing today use social media to promulgate their unacceptable aims and objectives? If so, has action already been taken, or is it going to be taken, to seek to ensure that this no longer continues to be the case? In indicating again that we support the order, I nevertheless hope that the Minister will be able to throw some light on the issues that I and my noble friend Lord Triesman have raised.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Triesman and Lord Rosser, for their support. I hope that I will be able to answer their questions in some measure at least.
We believe that the three organisations should be added to the list of proscribed organisations. I am glad of and acknowledge the support that we have received from all corners of the House, not only for this but for the previous 15 proscription orders. The noble Lords, Lord Triesman and Lord Rosser, talked about the timing of proscription. The decisions on whether and when to proscribe a particular organisation are taken after extensive consideration and in the light of a full assessment of the available information, identifying whether a group is currently concerned with terrorism and meets the statutory process for proscription. There is then the discretionary element— the Home Secretary has to decide whether it is right in the light of our national interests, even if it meets the statutory definition of terrorism, to proscribe the organisation. Sometimes it may not be. It is important, for example, that it does not adversely impact on any ongoing investigations and supports other members of the international community. It is not appropriate for us to discuss the specific intelligence that leads to the decision to proscribe.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked about the low number of prosecutions for proscription offences. In answer to his specific question on numbers, between 2001 and the end of March 2014, 33 people have been charged with proscription offences as primary offences in Great Britain and 16 have been convicted. The Terrorism Act covers a broad range of offences and different offences may well be adopted on the basis of the evidence that is presented. However, the police and the Crown Prosecution Service continue to examine these issues carefully.
We regard proscription as a valuable tool, as it supports other disruptive activity, including immigration disruption, prosecutions for other offences, messaging to deter funding and recruitment and asset freezes. The assets of a proscribed organisation are subject to seizure. Although we realise that issues are involved in the numbers of prosecutions, there have been some, and it is worth noting that, in its report yesterday, the Intelligence and Security Committee said that,
“given the deterrent effect and the value in drawing attention to individuals who hold extremist views, the Committee considers that there is benefit in continuing to proscribe organisations”.
In answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about how many groups have been deproscribed, at the moment there is one: the People’s Mujaheddin of Iran. He also asked why evidence to justify the proscription of a group is not used to prosecute individuals such as its members. The test for proscribing a group is whether it is concerned with terrorism. The evidence that is relevant to that test is not relevant to an assessment of whether particular individuals are members or supporters of that group.
In terms of any progress on deproscription and whether it is reviewed continuously, we do not give a running commentary on proscribed organisations. On 10 December 2013, the Minister said that he would consider deproscription only on application. Anyone or any individual connected with the organisation at any time can apply for deproscription and the Home Secretary is required to determine that application within 90 days. In addition, it is important to note that Section 10 of the Terrorism Act provides that evidence of anything done in relation to a deproscription application is not admissible as evidence in proceedings against an individual for an offence under that Act. Therefore there is no disincentive there to apply for deproscription.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also mentioned action on social media. Some 65,000 sites have been taken down, 42,000 of those within the last year. Therefore there is a lot of activity in that area, which is obviously a very relevant one. The Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, which was presented to Parliament yesterday in the House of Commons, will contain provisions on that, and this House will have plenty of time to talk about social media in the context of counterterrorism.
I hope that I have answered most of the questions. I will now summarise. Proscription is based on clear evidence that an organisation is concerned in terrorism. It is the Home Secretary’s firm opinion that on the basis of the available evidence, all three groups named in this order meet the statutory test for proscription, and it is appropriate in each case for the Home Secretary to exercise her discretion to proscribe these groups. Therefore, I commend this order to the House.