Plastic Bags

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Thursday 27th November 2014 Westminster Hall

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to respond to the debate on behalf of Her Majesty’s official Opposition. I pay tribute to the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), for all the work she has done on this issue, for her Committee’s excellent analysis and for her excellent presentation of it.

Simply put, the Government should not have a stand-alone policy on plastic bags. Reducing their use must be part of a coherent waste management strategy with a focus on preventing plastic from entering the waste stream and reducing litter. There should be no disagreement on that in the House, but, of course, one of the Minister’s first acts on entering the Department was to announce in his infamous letter that there would be an abandonment of waste management by Government.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

The hon. Gentleman and I served on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee together, and we discussed these matters informally and formally. However, I ask him to refer to what I actually said in my letter, which is that there are some areas of policy that have been taken forward, and it will now be up to industry and wider society to respond, and others that we will continue to conduct research on and get behind. To say that my letter said we were abandoning waste policy is not an entirely fair characterisation.

[Barry Gardiner]

The Minister pleads in his own defence, and I will let the industry judge for itself, but the industry has been clear that it was deeply unhelpful of the Department to announce that the Government no longer saw fit to take part in some aspects of waste management and that it was down to the industry just to get on with things.

The rationale behind the Government’s position was that they should not intervene in areas where there was no market failure. The problem, however, is that I happen to believe that 2,309 items of plastic per kilometre on UK beaches constitute market failure. The remarks of the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) about the levels of plastic litter experienced around the UK coastline bear witness to that. They are disgusting, but they are also a warning about the level of plastic that has not washed up on our beaches and that is still floating out at sea. The Government have just not thought through waste management in this respect. If they had, they would have listened to the industry and delivered a workable policy programme. They have not done that.

What percentage reduction in plastic bag use do the Government expect will be achieved as a result of their policy by 2020? Will it be as much as in Wales, where there is a simple charging system without all the loopholes and caveats the Government have added?

When does the Minister think that a biodegradable plastic bag will fulfil the criteria for exemption from the single-use plastic bag charging policy? My hon. Friend made an incontrovertible and admirable point: where else in Government policy does one create in law an exemption for something that does not exist? It really beggars belief.

The Committee’s report stated:

“The policy around the exemption for biodegradable bags appears rushed and taken before reviewing existing evidence or considering the concerns of all stakeholders.”

If I may say so, I think my hon. Friend’s Committee let the Government off lightly by putting it so delicately.

The report continues:

“It appears to us that Defra is trying to use innovation to justify a rushed and flawed policy proposal to allow an exemption for biodegradable bags.”

The question we must ask is why. Can the Minister give a reasoned explanation— because there is certainly not one in the Government’s response to the Environmental Audit Committee’s report—of why the Department has gone into such contortions to do that? The waste management industry and environmental scientists are clear about the fact that the exemption is absurd. The British Plastics Federation has made it clear that DEFRA made the decision on the exemption before consulting manufacturers. British Polythene Industries opposed the exemption and stated that it would increase the use of plastic bags and undermine recycling targets. What progress has been made as part of the small business research initiative on biodegradable bags?

Objections to the policy on environmental grounds have been as emphatic as the industry’s. A professor of marine biology and adviser to DEFRA told the Environmental Audit Committee that he was surprised by the proposals to exempt biodegradable bags. His research found that approximately 98% of plastics, including so-called biodegradable plastics, remained after 40 weeks, in part because of a lack of light reaching the bags under water. There is no such thing as a biodegradable plastic bag; the plastic just degrades into smaller pieces that are more easily ingested by marine life. That means that they are more easily able to contaminate and pollute the marine environment.

Quantities of litter on UK beaches have more than doubled since 1994, according to the Marine Conservation Society’s Beachwatch survey, which is the source for the figure of 2,309 items per kilometre found in 2013. Last year English beaches had, on average, 45 plastic bags per kilometre, an increase of just over 20% since 1996. Let us consider the impact of that on wildlife. The northern fulmar does not regurgitate plastic, but accumulates it in its stomach. Data collected between 2007 and 2011 show that 95% of fulmars in the North sea had plastic in their stomach—62% exceeding legal limits.

The Government’s response to the Committee’s report states:

“Several key impacts of the policy (e.g. reduced disamenity impact of litter; reduced damage to marine life) are difficult to measure in quantitative and monetary terms.”

Indeed they are, but that does not mean they are not real. They are what classical economics regards as externalities, and, as so often with the present Government, externalities are ascribed a nil value. That is the problem. The Government have chosen to discount the importance of litter and, significantly, of damage to marine life, because it is too difficult to work out what those things cost. That is the wrong approach. Litter ruins neighbourhoods; plastic waste damages entire marine ecosystems.

The waste management industry, perhaps more than any other, can produce growth that increases the productivity of our economy and creates new, skilled jobs. The job creation rate for recycling and reprocessing is significantly higher than that for landfill. It has been estimated that one job in landfill is created for every 50,000 tonnes of waste. By contrast, SITA estimates that job creation per 1,000 tonnes of waste for recycling ranges from 0.75 to as many as 40 jobs, depending on the material. That is between 38 and 2,000 jobs for every 50,000 tonnes of waste. That is the industry on its own, making an immensely valuable contribution to jobs and growth; but it is even more important as a driver of the wider economy.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mrs Brooke.

I thank the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) for the opportunity to debate plastic bags. Owing to my ministerial position, I get to be a member of the Environmental Audit Committee, although I am sure as its Chair, the hon. Lady would take me to task on my attendance record sitting on her side of the table. It is a convention that one does not attend in that way, but I have appeared before the Committee on several occasions and look forward to doing so in the near future—next week—on another topic. I appreciate the work it does.

Before I delve into aspects of the policy raised by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North and the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), I noted that the hon. Lady’s speech was somewhat negative. To be fair, she was negative about the previous Government as well as the current one. We are introducing a policy that takes advantage of the provisions of the Climate Change Act 2008. She and the hon. Member for Brent North, who is sometimes my hon. Friend, may take issue with some aspects of the policy, and I will address their concerns in a few moments. The fundamental point is that we are seeking to enact those provisions and to do something about the matter. I hope the hon. Lady and the Committee welcome that.

[Joan Walley]

Does the Minister agree that if something is worth doing, it is worth doing right?

[Dan Rogerson]

Absolutely, and we can debate the provisions and aspects that the hon. Lady and the hon. Gentleman have highlighted.

The Government carefully studied the Committee’s report on plastic bags earlier in the year—the hon. Gentleman referred to our response. We may disagree on details of the scheme, but we agree that reducing plastic bag use has environmental benefits. It will mean lower carbon emissions, more efficient use of valuable resources and less litter. Too many single-use bags are currently being distributed. Efforts to reduce the number of such bags without resorting to legislation have led to success in the past, and voluntary initiatives by retailers saw a reduction in their distribution by 48% between 2006 and 2009. That was significant progress, but the number of single-use plastic bags is on the rise. In England between 2010 and 2013, there was an increase of 18%, or just over 1 billion bags. In 2013 alone, England’s main supermarket chains issued more than 7 billion single-use carrier bags to their customers. Laid out, those bags would go round the M25 more than 20,000 times. Such statistics are staggering.

As we know, far too many bags make their way on to the streets and into the countryside as unsightly litter. They are also discarded on beaches, as hon. Members have said. My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) highlighted the work of organisations such as the Marine Conservation Society in monitoring and reporting on that, and in conducting beach cleaning. I was out beach cleaning a few weeks ago, as I am sure many hon. Members were—[Interruption.] Perhaps those with slightly less coastal constituencies were not engaged in that but they are welcome to come to Cornwall to see such important action first hand.

The hon. Gentleman set out the impact in the sea and to the environment where plastic bags can cause harm to wildlife. Plastic bags also have a negative impact on the environment through their production and disposal. The oil used in their creation and the tonnes of plastic that go to landfill means we must take action to reduce the use of plastic bags. When they are used, they should be reused as often as possible and then recycled.

The Government will shortly lay draft legislation in Parliament to introduce a requirement to charge for single-use plastic bags. There has been a largely positive response to the announcement of the charge. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North referred to some corners of the media that have been particularly keen to support the policy. It is a proven tool. In its first year, the Welsh charge resulted in a decrease of 76% in the number of single-use plastic bags distributed by the seven big supermarkets. We have been able to use the experience from the Welsh charge to help to shape our scheme. A similar charge was introduced in Scotland in October, as the hon. Lady said.

Subject to parliamentary approval, the English charge will commence in October 2015. It will require retailers to charge a minimum of 5p for every new single-use plastic carrier bag, the same as in Wales and Scotland. Bags used for deliveries will incur the charge, as well as those used to carry purchases away from a store.

Exemptions are at the core of the debate. Small and medium-sized businesses will be exempt from the charge in England. We recognise that some wanted SMEs to be included, but we concluded that we need to avoid administrative burdens on start-up and growing businesses in England at a time when we want to support new growth in the economy. It is also worth bearing in mind that the current UK retail market is dominated by a relatively small number of large stores run by companies with more than 500 employees—they employ 65% of the people working in retail and have 69% of all annual turnover of retail businesses. Any retailer who is not covered by the legislation will of course be able to charge for bags voluntarily.

[Joan Walley]

Why are the Government persisting with that when small businesses do not feel the need to be exempted and do not want to be exempted?

[Dan Rogerson]

Some organisations have taken that on. I have met some of them and they have given evidence to the Committee. Other organisations, such as the Federation of Small Businesses, have taken a different position. It is important to look at the implementation of the charge. The huge majority of the bags will be distributed by retailers who will be covered by the charge. We can continue to examine how the exemption operates post-implementation. The smaller retailers who want to make a charge can do so. They are exempt from the compulsion to do so and the reporting of that, which will be an obligation on those who are covered by the charge.

[Barry Gardiner]

If small retailers charge 5p for a bag but are exempt, that will presumably constitute part of their revenue stream and they will have to declare VAT on that element of their income, whereas those who are not exempt will be exempt from declaring VAT. The exemptions are working directly counter to each other. Is that correct?

[Dan Rogerson]

I have been having discussions with some of the organisations representing smaller retailers. Some small businesses have already chosen to introduce a charge voluntarily in local areas. That is a decision for them. We are talking about the difference between compulsion and an option to do so. When smaller retailers have chosen to introduce a charge voluntarily or as part of their business model, and to use the money for good causes, which is what we are expecting larger retailers to do, that will be a matter for them to decide. I want to talk about how we expect that money to be used because that is important and there have been discussions about that outwith this place.

As in Wales and Scotland, we hope and expect that retailers will give the proceeds of the charge to good causes. The Climate Change Act 2008 does not give the Government the power to determine what retailers do with the proceeds of the charge. We will require retailers to report to the Government the number of bags they give out, the amount raised by the charge and what they do with the proceeds. We will then make that information public. We expect that pressure from customers will ensure that the net proceeds, when reasonable costs have been deducted, will go to good causes. Many large retailers have already stated that they will give the proceeds to charities and publish details on their websites.

[Barry Gardiner]

Given that retailers will be obliged to publish how many bags they have given out and how they have given the money from those bags to charitable causes, is it correct that it will be simple for anyone to calculate how much VAT will be related to the income derived from those bags? It will be a straight 20% to the Government, so why in paragraph 27 of their response to the Committee do they say that that will be a large additional burden on business?

[Dan Rogerson]

Just for clarification, when the hon. Gentleman says burden on business, is he talking about small businesses that we are exempting from the charge?

[Barry Gardiner]

I am referring to paragraph 27, which states:

“Requiring businesses to report specifically on the VAT on plastic bags would also introduce additional administrative burden for those firms involved.”

For that reason, the Government did not propose to follow the Committee’s recommendation to report on the VAT and to hypothecate that for the monitoring and effectiveness of the scheme. The excuse given by the Government for not doing so is that it would pose an additional burden on business, but the Minister has just told us that the business will have to report on the number of bags sold and the proceeds of that charge. Given that all one has to do is divide the proceeds of the charge by five, how is it that the Government use the excuse of that being an additional burden on business to avoid the Committee’s conclusions? It is simply a case of dividing by five the burden that has already been placed on them to report on the proceeds.

[Dan Rogerson]

The reporting system will require retailers to report on the VAT that is paid. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s points, but I was covering the importance of where the money goes and our ability to state our expectations of that. As the Chair of Committee said in her opening remarks, the provisions that allow us to do that without requiring primary legislation are in the Act. That is the area in which we work.

[Joan Walley]

I agree with the contradiction that has just been described by my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner). If the Minister is not able to clarify that now, it might be helpful for the Committee to have clarification in writing later. The Government’s response to our report says that

“the Government intends to require retailers to publicise the number of bags sold and how the proceeds of the charge have been spent”,

and that they will make an announcement in due course. When will that “due course” be?

[Dan Rogerson]

Does the hon. Lady mean reporting on what we have received? Does she want to know how the information will be published?

[Joan Walley]

indicated assent.

[Dan Rogerson]

With regard to the regulations on the scheme and the explanation of how the scheme will operate, we will be tabling the regulations in December. One of the hon. Lady’s other questions was about the timetable for implementation. It is still our intention to table the regulations by the end of this year and to have the charge come into operation in October next year. That timetable still remains and, obviously, we will have the opportunity to explore the operation of the system in Committee. Should the hon. Lady be a member of that Committee, we could debate any further questions she has, but the reporting of how that money is to be spent will come to the Government, because retailers will have to do it and make it public. I would be very surprised if companies that were taking the charge in and giving it to good causes did not wish to demonstrate clearly to their customers the purpose to which the money was being put. It would be rather strange for them to give money to good causes—I am sure many of those companies are altruistic—and not tell the public about the good causes to which they are giving money. We have seen other schemes in supermarkets in which, as part of their corporate-social responsibility, they demonstrate how they are supporting community activities in the local area.

[Barry Gardiner]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dan Rogerson]

I would like to make a little progress, if I may.

It is not only charities that stand to gain from the charge, because when littered, carrier bags cost all of us. They cost taxpayers in England around £10 million every year in clean-up costs. The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady mentioned biodegradability—my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth, who is concerned about the marine environment, also mentioned it. The Government’s position is that there will always be a need for some plastic bags. People may forget their reusable bags or they may require a new bag to avoid contamination if they are buying raw meat. At the same time, we should aim to reduce the visual impact and the harm to wildlife if those bags go on to be littered. A bag that biodegrades into harmless products is clearly more desirable. That is why we are working with industry and academic experts to review existing standards and to set a suitably robust standard for biodegradable bags. Bags that meet that standard will be exempt from the charge.

Hon. Members have referred to bags that are already on the market and the challenges we face. Bags biodegrade in different circumstances in different environments. Those circumstances include hedgerows in the countryside and the marine environment, which we have talked about. We will need to be satisfied that there is a product that is biodegradable in the multiple circumstances in which it may be littered or find itself disposed of.

[Barry Gardiner]

The Minister is being very generous giving way—I do like him so much and I find it difficult to be quite so difficult with him. He is absolutely right that, depending on the light available, plastics will degrade in differential ways, but standards could be set to allow bags to be used in different circumstances and different contexts. Is he seriously saying that, if someone lives or does their shopping within a mile of the seaside, they will not be able to get hold of a particular plastic bag, whereas if someone lives in Birmingham, that bag might be available to them? Context-specific measures cannot be applied in legislation in that way. We require a bag that does not just break down into small particles, because those small particles are ingested by birds, as well as fish and other marine organisms, and that is a key problem. Unless he can come up with an answer to that critical point, the exemption for supposedly biodegradable bags really does not wash.

[Dan Rogerson]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. He is absolutely right that it would be wrong to have different types of bag that biodegrade in different circumstances and then allow them to be sold in particular places—we are absolutely not doing that. We are talking about a product that meets a standard that covers that range of circumstances. That is the super-biodegradability aspiration.

[Sarah Newton]

I am pleased that the Minister is saying he will use scientific evidence before he makes that decision because, right now, such a product does not exist. I hope he will assure us that, even though he is creating a category of exemption, he does not anticipate any of the current products meeting it. As the science will show, he cannot give us an assurance that the plastics properly biodegrade in the marine environment. Because they do not do so, huge harm is being done. [Interruption.]

[Dan Rogerson]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention and the hon. Member for Brent North for his sedentary remark about the criteria and specifications. That is why, in the regulations that hon. Members will see by the end of the calendar year, we must ensure that we can give everyone confidence that we understand that point. We must ensure that the biodegradability is of a sufficient standard to satisfy those concerns. However, we want to stimulate the industry to explore the potential for a product to meet the circumstances that I described. We want to stimulate it to innovate and come up with something to meet the standard.

[Joan Walley]

Things get curiouser and curiouser. We have an exemption for something that does not exist, and we do not know what the criteria for it are or what the funding will be to incentivise the new procedure. We seem to have a hypothetical future technology that we are waiting to introduce, which will then surely require an equivalently hypothetical future recycling system. I wish the Minister would accept that. Why does he not go back to the drawing board and say, “Rather than having this hypothetical exemption, we will leave it as it is”? If in future that technology or innovation comes to the market, surely we can change the regulations.

[Dan Rogerson]

Obviously, as I said, the hon. Lady will be able to study the detail of the regulation when it is tabled. The intention behind signalling the desirability of a product that meets the criteria is that that is an important and perfectly reasonable thing to do to stimulate investment in innovation. The hon. Member for Brent North has pointed out that we have studies under way, as is referred to in our response, first, on materials, and secondly on processes for reprocessing bags, to satisfy concerns in that regard. We have had the initial work back. We will review it and consider whether we want to take anything further forward.

[Barry Gardiner]

On a point of clarification—

[Dan Rogerson]

I want to make some progress and come to some of the other issues raised in the debate.

The Chair of the Committee was right to point out that, along with such a product, we need a standard to measure it and ensure that it is suitable. However, we would not be doing this at all if we were signalling that in no circumstances would such a product ever be exempt. The whole point of extending that possibility is to stimulate the discussion and innovation. That is the reason behind that aspect of the policy.

The hon. Lady also referred, as did her Committee, to paper bags. We are focusing the charge on plastic bags as part of a targeted and proportionate approach. Plastic carrier bags take the longest to degrade in the natural environment, can harm wildlife, as hon. Members pointed out, and are extremely visible in the environment because they take so long to degrade. Paper bags make up less than 0.1% of the bags distributed in the UK by the seven major supermarkets and can also biodegrade naturally in the open air. Of course, paper bags should still be reused a number of times before being recycled and should never be littered. We have analysed their life cycle—this addresses the carbon problem that the Chair of the Committee was keen to point out—but, because they make up such a small part of the overall number of bags used, we do not think that that will be significant, although they do have a part to play, for the reasons I have set out.

[Joan Walley]

Will the Minister reassure the House that there has been a full appraisal of the long-term implications of that—one sufficient to reach the conclusions that he has just reached?

[Dan Rogerson]

The assumption, from what the hon. Lady is saying, is that there might be a massive switch to paper bags and that therefore some of the littering issues and so on might continue even if biodegradability and the use of oil and so on—separate questions—are taken aside. I suggest that retailers, who are used to other forms of the policy in the Welsh jurisdiction, will make the charge part of the operation of their businesses. That was another of her questions—she mentioned working with retailers. We have had regular meetings with the British Retail Consortium and others. The fact that a system has been introduced in other jurisdictions means—the vast majority of those businesses operate across those boundaries—that retailers understand how such a system can work and will be prepared for it.

The hon. Lady mentioned the European Union. We are very pleased that the European Union has reached agreement on a robust plan for tackling the blight of plastic bag pollution, but with each member state doing what works best in its own circumstances. The negotiating position adopted by the United Kingdom Government was to safeguard that flexibility, so that member states can take systems forward in the way that is most suitable in their jurisdiction. That was at the heart of what we were trying to do.

[Barry Gardiner]

Will the Minister assure the House that, when the Government said, quite properly, that they were going to pursue a charge on plastic bags, a company did not come to them and say, “Hold on a second. We think that we have a product that’s going to be developed that will go a substantial way towards meeting some of the problems with plastic bags, so can you tailor-make an exemption for us”? I ask that because it would be deeply concerning if there were any suggestion that the Government were passing legislation simply to facilitate a company bringing a product to market in that way. It would be good for the Minister to clear the air and say that that is definitely not the case.

[Dan Rogerson]

As the hon. Gentleman may well be aware, the European Commission is committed to further research on oxo-biodegradable bags, and we will always use robust scientific evidence to inform our decisions. As I set out in our discussion about how things biodegrade in different environments, whether the marine environment or another environment, and the standards that we are seeking to set for our domestic policy, we are very clear that we would have a high barrier for any product to overcome to satisfy the exemption. This is not about taking one technology and saying, “We think that’s fine. We’ll make an exemption for it.” It is about saying, “We want a new sort of product that will overcome a high barrier.”

[Barry Gardiner]

I want to give the Minister the opportunity to deny categorically that, when the policy against plastic bags was being put forward, a specific company came to the Government and lobbied and got the exemption put into the legislation. I understand what he is saying about standards and the benchmark—when standards are in place, they apply to everyone—but it is really important that the Minister stands up in the House and says, “No. The exemptions that we have put into this legislation are not a result of lobbying by a specific company that came to us once this process was under way.”

[Dan Rogerson]

The hon. Gentleman has been a Minister, so he knows that decisions that are taken are subject to a process of discussion across Government, across all Departments. I can certainly say that the policy that we have taken forward is not to suit any particular company or any particular technology. It is to meet the obligation to improve environmental outcomes and to deal with the issues of litter, and to generate an income stream for good causes, which we have discussed. That is the focus of the policy.

In concluding my remarks, I thank hon. Members for their close interest in the policy.

[Joan Walley]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dan Rogerson]

No, I am concluding my remarks. I hope we can agree that the policy is a real step forward, for all the reasons we have discussed. I hope I have been able to reassure the hon. Lady and her Committee that we take all these questions very seriously, and that we will move forward on the basis of robust scientific evidence—that will be the basis of our decision—particularly on the question of biodegradability, which I know is of interest to many people. I thank her again for securing today’s debate, and the Liaison Committee for facilitating it. I also thank her for the work her Committee did on the policy.