Commons Chamber

Thursday 25th June 2026

(began 1 week, 3 days ago)

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None Portrait Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs if she will make a statement on the intensification of fighting in Sudan and diplomatic efforts to press the warring parties into a ceasefire
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intensification of fighting in Sudan and diplomatic efforts to press the warring parties into a ceasefire. >> Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker,

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Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you for granting this urgent question. The war in Sudan has now entered its fourth devastating year. There is no military solution to the conflict. The path promises only devastation for Sudan. We need an immediate and
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Chris Elmore Portrait Chris Elmore MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Bridgend, Labour)
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urgent ceasefire, and we need those responsible for countless atrocities to be held to account. And we need a pathway to peace. And we need a pathway to peace. This is a crucial moment for Sudan, and reports of a possible CSF offensive at El Obeid are deeply concerning. Last year, we saw unimaginable horrors unfold in El Fasher and the world failed the Fasher and the world failed the people of El Fasher. We cannot allow that to happen again. Dozens of drone strikes have hit El Obeid over the past two weeks, killing civilians and leading to severe fuel shortages, sharp food price increases and increasing challenges to water supply.

The risk of atrocities and horrific humanitarian consequences for civilians is high. The UK has been clear the CSF must comply with international law. Civilians must be able to leave freely and safely, and all parties must allow rapid, safe and unhindered humanitarian access. On the 18th of June, as reports emerged, the Foreign Secretary immediately called on the SF to pull back alongside a joint statement with partners in the coalition for Atrocity Prevention urging de-escalation. The UK has also rallied support at the UN Security Council to drive international action to end the war.

On the 20th of June, we work with partners to raise the alarm over the worsening situation in El Abide. Pressing for an end to the fighting. Protection of civilians and immediate humanitarian access. Just this week, we strengthened calls in a joint statement with the foreign Ministers in France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands and Norway. We. We are. We are urgently engaging with our international partners and are pressing those with influence to call on the CSF to pull back and bring all parties to the negotiating table.

The Foreign Secretary has personally raised this with the counterparts in Egypt during her recent visit to Cairo, as well as with partners in the UAE, Ethiopia and the United States. As the third largest humanitarian donor, the UK is providing £146 million in aid, while doubling support for local responders to £15 million. To ensure life saving supplies reach those in the front line. Now, now must be a moment for the international community to stand together to bring this devastating conflict to an end.

There is no military solution. We need an immediate, urgent humanitarian truce. The UK is working closely with the UN envoy, Pekka Haavisto. The United States and the quad partners to drive a united global effort, pushing the parties into serious talks, demanding accountability for atrocities and clearing without delay every barrier to life saving aid. secretary.
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Priti Patel Portrait Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)
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The world's worst humanitarian crisis is now threatening to sink into even more harrowing depths. into even more harrowing depths. The shocking disregard of human life and the violence in El Obeid and the major new offensive simply must not happen. The attacks and destruction of civilian infrastructure and supply lines that we have already seen are beyond all our comprehension. But of course, Mr Speaker words alone, whether from the UK or the United Nations Security Council, will simply not stop the fighting.

The Minister, if I may say so, needs to explain how words are going to turn into action. Will it be made clear that if there is destruction or obstruction of life saving British aid, there will be consequences for the perpetrators? What new measures will the government bring to go after the leadership of these warring parties and the organisations that fuel in and funding the violence? This is like no other war, and the brutal and dehumanising nature of this violence and conflict cannot be ignored.

So what is the government doing to end this cycle of endless killing? What has the UK recently contributed to the US efforts to press the warring parties into a ceasefire? Has the UK been contributing to the Sudan Quintets civilian dialogue process? What more can the UK do to support evidence collection of the atrocities, and then move the process onto widespread prosecutions? The UK will soon assume the presidency of the financial task force that has to look at the illicit funding that is driving this war.

What can the Minister say about that process and what the United Kingdom will do? I also expect the Minister to respond to the concerns outlined on Tuesday at the IGC that the British government allegedly failed to act on intelligence and policy proposals put forward by third parties regarding impending mass atrocities in Al-fashir. How does the Minister reconcile this account with the way in which the conflict has been handled by the FCDO since the government took responsibility in July 2020 for Mr Speaker for Britain's national security? We need action to end this war and to support a transition to peaceful civilian rule.

We do not want to see more destabilisation spanning all the way from the Sahel to the Middle East. We cannot have more threats to our security and to regional security in the Red sea, or more Iranian or Russian influence. And we cannot see ungoverned spaces where terrorist groups plot to destabilise and undermine our security and that of our allies.
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Chris Elmore Portrait Chris Elmore MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Bridgend, Labour)
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Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the shadow Foreign Secretary. Just in relation to additional funding and support and additional funding and support and her ask on words into action. And of course, that is what this government is doing. We are protecting funding for humanitarian support for Sudan. We are additionally putting in money for emergency response rooms in aid. We are actively working at every level to find to bring about a peaceful resolution to the conflict. On the point, because I appreciate she raised this and I'm sure other members will as well.

On the on the claims made yesterday in the IDC, I have to tell the House that we completely reject these claims. The UK acted swiftly, including on the 13th of June 2024, when the previous government were in office, that we penned the UN Security Council resolution. We demanded that the CSF halt the siege in the city. This further work that into November 2024, we attempted a follow up UN resolution, and we've also obviously issued further sanctions across the piece. Of course, there are lessons learned in any response to international conflict, but I do have to tell the House we do not accept the conditions of what was set out yesterday in the IDC in terms of wider response.

The foreign. The shadow Foreign Secretary will know that the Foreign Secretary has raised this at the highest levels, including when we take the Security Council in February. She's worked with partners across the quad and the United States, and even this Tuesday was raising with the UN Secretary general the need for further intervention internationally on a multilateral basis to bring about peaceful resolution in terms of conflict resolution and a response to those people who are committing the atrocities. Just yesterday, I was on calls with counterparts in Angola on trying to work to build the International coalition on Atrocity Prevention and evidence gathering, to ensure that people can be held to account, and that persecution prosecution can take place in these horrendous crimes.

She is right. What is happening in Sudan is one of the greatest travesties of our generation. The situation is horrendous, whether it's on sexual violence against women and girls or the sheer scale of civilians killings. And the government will continue to do all it can to bring perpetrators to account, to ensure aid enters into Sudan, and to do all we can to stop any conflict being more widespread.
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Jesse Norman Portrait Rt Hon Jesse Norman MP (Hereford and South Herefordshire, Conservative)
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the 6th of July includes Monday, the 6th of July, if necessary. Consideration of Lords amendments, followed by a motion to approve the followed by a motion to approve the draft environmental permitting, waste Control and transportation and and relevant functions of Primary Authorities. Amendment England Regulations 2026, followed by a motion to approve the Draft Infected Blood Compensation Scheme Amendment Regulations 2026, followed by a motion to approve the Draft Industrial Training Levy,

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Engineering and Construction Industry Training Board Order 2026. Jesse Norman.

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Jesse Norman. I thank the leader very much for the business, and I know the whole the business, and I know the whole House will want to join me in thinking of the victims of the thinking of the victims of the earthquakes in Venezuela, of which we've just had news. And of course, we've just had news. And of course, the victims of the train crash in Bedford. And of course, the victims of what now have been deemed aggravated terrorism related attacks in Edinburgh.

It's been a difficult week, Mr. Speaker, but on a brighter note, I'm sure all will want to join me in celebrating Armed Forces Week and thanking all the men and women across this country and abroad who serve His Majesty in the armed forces and a matter of particular interest. I remind the house in Herefordshire. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we weep for the Scotland football team, but perhaps less so for Peter Murrell, who began a five year sentence this week for theft and embezzlement.

The Scottish Police asked him in 2024 what does the SNP need? Over 1900 £0 of luxury pens for? Quite a good question. Well, I might ask the same of a Jaguar I-Pace, a state of the art motorhome, a men's slouch pouch, onesie, whatever that is. I'm not looking for guidance from the chair on this matter, Mr. speaker, the real question, the real question is not just whether Nicola Sturgeon knew or should have known of these thefts, including the sudden appearance of a £2,500 Lalique salt and pepper set on the kitchen table.

It's about the culture and probity of a Scottish Government that still refuses to appoint a KC to lead an independent inquiry. And while we're on the topic of vehicles, Mr. Speaker, the leader of reform UK has publicly reserved the right to spend the £5 million donation definitely not related to politics from his Thailand based crypto billionaire on Ferraris if he wishes. It appears that none of that money has been spent on personal security. From what he said, and he's now been referred to the Financial Conduct Authority alongside the current investigation by the
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Alan Campbell Portrait Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)
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sadness at the tragic decision by the leader not to stand in the Labour leadership election, Labour leadership election, resulting in a coronation, alas, of the Member for Makerfield. And I'm the Member for Makerfield. And I'm sad to say that the tawdry sight of Cabinet Ministers trailing their coats. Once again, we can only coats. Once again, we can only regret that decision not to throw his hat into the ring. But I simply ask, what is the government's policy on the defence investment plan? The Prime Minister wants to publish it now.

His successor wants a delay, but a defence investment plan that may be reopened within weeks is not a plan. It is a hanging IOU with a NATO deadline attached. Mr. speaker, I turn now to a matter of the greatest sensitivity. The case of Lucy Letby, members of whose family are my constituents. It is essential to respect the independence of the judiciary in this matter. Nor, crucially, must we ever lose sight of the suffering of the families whose babies died or were gravely injured.

But I believe there is also a proper public concern here as to the security of the verdict. Since the convictions, a number of serious and reputable people have raised concerns about the expert scientific and statistical evidence. In this case, both the evidence presented to the jury and the evidence that the jury never saw. Those concerns come from neonatologists, pathologists, statisticians and most recently from Dame Sue black, one of the country's most distinguished forensic scientists. Like me, Dame Sue makes no claim as to whether Lucy Letby is innocent or guilty.

But she has said in measured terms that she is troubled by the conviction and by the apparent lack of forensic evidence. When someone of her public scientific standing speaks in these terms, I do not think the issue she raises can be properly avoided. Her and other expert concerns raise profound questions as to the fairness of the trial, and indeed, about the status of the evidential test used by the CCRC. In considering whether to reopen it, I remind the House that there were no witnesses, no CCTV footage, no forensic evidence and no confession.

In this case. Everything therefore depended on the testimony of experts. But when it came to the defence, in the words of Dame Sue black, there were no medical or statistical experts put forward at all. I'd also highlight that Lucy Letby had had a prior complaint against the consultants in the hospital. This was upheld after a detailed investigation and report, which found there was absolutely nothing to prevent her returning to work, and that doctors had bullied and harassed her.

This evidence, too, was never heard by the jury. The Thirlwall inquiry into the Countess
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Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)
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Let me also say, Mr. Speaker, that I very much welcome the three new members to the House this week, and members to the House this week, and I wish them all well, irrespective of whichever party they serve. It of whichever party they serve. It has Mr Speaker in many ways, been a momentous week. Following the Prime Minister's announcement on Monday, Minister's announcement on Monday, he will leave office with a record of stabilising the economy, driving down waiting lists in the NHS, lifting half a million children out of poverty, as well as a proud record on the international stage and defending our national interest.

Mr. speaker, standing for election and representing your community and your country is the essence of politics, and we would do well to remember that regardless of party affiliation. At the heart of this are human beings for whom toxic political discourse only makes

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their job harder, and it can take a toll on Them and their families. And I

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Them and their families. And I hope that we all bear that in mind, Mr. Speaker. And recognise that the onus is on all of us to moderate onus is on all of us to moderate political discourse and ensure that it does not cross the line into abuse or intimidation. And reflecting on that, Mr. Speaker, reflecting on Prime Minister's yesterday made me even more grateful for the tone of the shadow Leader of the House, who during
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Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)
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Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank my hon. Friend for bringing this matter to the House. We all agree. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that clean cleanliness and the upkeep of the parliamentary estate is absolutely vital. It allows us to continue to do our jobs. The policy that he mentioned, Mr. Speaker, is in the purview of the House authorities, and if my hon. Friend should wish to make his case to the

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appropriate House official, then I would help help to him in that process. Well.

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Well. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the House has many skills, as we all know, and part of that and many know, and part of that and many members won't know a footballing skills are included in that. In skills are included in that. In this World World Cup season. Can I this World World Cup season. Can I just suggest to the Leader of the House that playing fields play an important part in these football story and narrative of many, both boys and girls playing football, many of them now playing for England? So is he aware that Shropshire Football Association has supported football since 1877? Their campaign to protect Where We play in Shropshire and also to ensure that our playing fields are protected.

They're not built on. We understand we've got to build more houses, but it needs to have the right scale in the right place. And does he share my concern of the

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government's plans to remove Sport England as a statutory consultee? Thank you.

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Mr. Speaker. I regret to say I think the hon. Gentleman is mixing me up with someone else. If he thinks that I've got footballing thinks that I've got footballing footballing skills, but let's let's footballing skills, but let's let's plough on regardless. Let let let me be very clear about this. It is important that we protect our important that we protect our playing fields. We do need houses. We need homes so that people can live fulfilling lives. But we also need to protect playing fields wherever we possibly can.

And the government is committed to that. If he wants reassurance on that matter, either I can arrange a meeting with the relevant Minister, or we could

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seek an adjournment debate to make his case. Matt Bishop Baggy Shanker.

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Matt Bishop Baggy Shanker. Mr Speaker. In Derby, my constituents are fed up with getting fleeced by private parking operators, and it's not just Derby. operators, and it's not just Derby. The RAC expects a record of 17 million fines in just the last year alone, costing drivers well over alone, costing drivers well over £100 million. It's right that this government is standing up for drivers in Derby and across the country by introducing a new private code of practice. But does the Leader of the House agree that it's time to crack down on these unfair private parking fines, and will he ensure that this House is

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promptly updated when the new code of practice will be released? This house. I thank my friend for raising

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I thank my friend for raising this matter. He is right that our new private parking Code of practice will raise standards across the private parking industry across the private parking industry to ensure that drivers are treated fairly. Stricter regulation for private parking companies will kerb aggressive fines and debt recovery tactics, and I am sure that the tactics, and I am sure that the House will be updated when the code of practice is published, and I hope that will be at the earliest opportunity.



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Martin Vickers thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As the leader and colleagues across the House will be aware when across the House will be aware when charities and voluntary groups arrange drop in sessions here at Parliament, we as members receive Parliament, we as members receive emails from constituents urging us to attend and support them. to attend and support them. Yesterday I attended the leukaemia UK event in the House and as is UK event in the House and as is often the case, their main request is for early diagnosis.

Could the leader arrange for the Health Minister to come to the House and give some reassurance to those people about earlier diagnosis for this terrible disease?
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Andrew Griffith Portrait Andrew Griffith MP (Arundel and South Downs, Conservative)
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Madam Deputy Speaker, the hon. Gentleman is an assiduous, assiduous constituency MP and campaigner on these matters and I pay tribute to him for that. It is important the government recognises that all cancer patients should get diagnosed in the shortest time possible, which is why we published our national cancer plan. We've also backed that up with £2.3 billion of investment, which will deliver 9.5 million additional tests by 2022. But I know that the vital work that charities like leukaemia UK play, they will want reassurance about that and I'll see if we can get either a statement or

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some update from the relevant Minister to satisfy the hon. Gentleman. Polly Billington thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My right hon. Friend will be aware that in response to violence and disorder last year in Broadstairs, I have last year in Broadstairs, I have worked with Kent Police, South Eastern Railways, the local councils and British Transport councils and British Transport Police to establish better ways of tackling the problem of anti-social behaviour. And yet still it returns, behaviour. And yet still it returns, this time in Margate as well as Broadstairs this week.

Now I've welcomed the extra resources allocated to seaside towns last year by this government, which definitely helped. Will my right hon. Friend convey the concerns of my constituents to the Home Secretary that we need to continue to resource our coastal communities, in particular? East Thanet, but indeed his own in in Tynemouth to meet the needs of the influxes of visitors and tackle the wilful misbehaviour of a determined few.
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Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and as my hon. Friend says, I am very, very keen that this issue is very, very keen that this issue is tackled. I should be hopefully be returning to my constituency this weekend and if the weather is fine, weekend and if the weather is fine, I'm sure that the police will rise in Operation Coast Watch. I think I'm meeting them. Tomorrow will I'm meeting them. Tomorrow will rise to the challenge of young people coming to the predominantly young people coming to the coast, particularly if the weather is is, well, I welcome them coming.

But I do hope that they will behave when they get there. We've already passed the Crime and Policing Act, which will tackle some of these behaviours. We will be introducing respect orders with named local anti-social behaviour leads, and we're also providing the police with the powers that they need to address these instances. We have to have the powers, but we also have to have the investment in more police officers and encourage chief constables, as many of them do, to recognise that a time of great demand, the need to deploy those

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officers in a particular way, and coastal towns have a particular claim. Thank you. Clive Jones very.

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Clive Jones very. Much. Madam Deputy Speaker. Pubs are the lifeblood. Of our local. Communities and.

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Communities and. In Wokingham we are very lucky to have. So many great. Pubs to try to help them. I ran

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Pubs to try to help them. I ran my Woking and Best pub competition, recognising the value of pubs and recognising the value of pubs and their staff. Will the leader join me in congratulating the two poplars, who won the best pub competition last Friday? And as I know, he likes to support local pubs, will he consider joining me for a pint in the Two Poplars,

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where he'll find good beer and good food? Leader of the House indeed. Again, the hon. Gentleman, sir.

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Again, the hon. Gentleman, sir. An assiduous campaigner for his constituency, I congratulate him on setting up the scheme to recognise setting up the scheme to recognise the importance of pubs in his local community, and I very much welcome congratulate the two poplars in achieving that. I'm tempted, I have

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to say, so I will have a look at my diary and see what we can do. David Williams thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
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Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)
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only 20% of its funding comes from statutory NHS funding. The rest mainly comes from selling woolly jumpers, so as a result, they're jumpers, so as a result, they're only able to reach one third of the local need. So access to palliative local need. So access to palliative care will come under scrutiny once again in the autumn. So will the Leader of the House make time to Leader of the House make time to address sustainable funding for palliative care, to ensure provision for all is available?

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provision for all is available? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the Princess Alice Hospice for everything that they do? They and hospices in all of our areas are so very important. I do understand their concern about having sustained funding going forward, but the government has committed £125 million to support the hospice centre, with a further £26 million to support children and young people's hospices. She is right that I suspect this issue will come more into focus as our other private bills are coming forward.

She'll get her opportunity, forward. She'll get her opportunity, I think, then to make that case. In the meantime, if there's anything that the government can do to update the House about that, I'm update the House about that, I'm sure we'll think about doing it. Josh Newbury thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Last month, my constituent, Carl Pusey, was recognised with Cannock Chase District Council's Youth Endeavour Award for his outstanding years of volunteering at Norton Canes Library. Carl's known for being polite, hard working and always willing to go the extra mile.

So with the Leader of the House, join me in congratulating Carl on this well-deserved achievement. And well-deserved achievement. And could we have a debate on the positive difference he and many other young people make to communities up and down our country? communities up and down our country?
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Olivia Bailey Portrait Olivia Bailey MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Reading West and Mid Berkshire, Labour)
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Danny Beales thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Met Police plays a vital role in keeping those plays a vital role in keeping those who work live and visit London safe, including us here in this chamber. The Labour government and our mayor has stepped up increased funding. But at the same time, the unique challenges that the met faces of policing, protests, complex crimes policing, protests, complex crimes and terrorism has all increased. Which means despite this uplift, there still remains a gap in funding.

Will the Leader of the House make time for debate about the future funding for the met, and, in particular, the opportunity to bridge this gap by enabling the met to retain a proportion of the value of the cryptocurrency it recently received, seized as part of OP Manor, which is estimated to be worth between 3 to £9 billion, so that we can invest in the equipment, police stations and police officers we desperately need.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The government is absolutely committed to ensuring that the Met Police have the resources that they Police have the resources that they need. We've increased funding by £446 million since we came to office. Court proceedings relating to Operation Manna are ongoing, and critical elements are still to be critical elements are still to be considered before any asset is realised. But Ministers will realised. But Ministers will consider how any residual funds are distributed and that will include reflecting on the role of the Metropolitan Police Service.



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Jim Shannon thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the Leader of the House again for all his answers? One the Leader of the House asked the Foreign Secretary to make a statement on the protection of recognising unrecognised religious minority unrecognised religious minority communities in the Gulf region, following Human Rights Watch reports that Qatari authorities reports that Qatari authorities have ordered members of the key bi high institution to leave the country without due process, or an country without due process, or an effective legal avenue to challenge the decisions.

Can I ask what steps the government is able to take through its close bilateral relationships in the region to encourage the stronger protections

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for freedom of religion or belief, legal recognition and due process for minority faith communities? Thank you. Thank you, Madam.

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Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman, as ever, raises an important matter, and we strongly important matter, and we strongly condemn the persecution of Baha'i communities in many countries around the world. Our Special Envoy around the world. Our Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion and Belief, the hon. Member for North Northumberland, has met with the Northumberland, has met with the international community UN representative to discuss the persecution that they face and regularly engages with the community. But I will, as ever, raise his specific concerns with the Foreign Office and make sure that he gets a reply on what further action the government can take.



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Johanna Baxter thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. For years, my constituent, Donna Louise Armstrong, constituent, Donna Louise Armstrong, has worked tirelessly to serve the veteran community locally and nationally as our Area Coordinator for Poppyscotland and also as Vice Chair of the Homeless Veterans Project, which she helped establish Project, which she helped establish in 2019. She's very often seen at events in the constituency in her events in the constituency in her Paddington Bear outfit, raising funds for homeless veterans. She recently received recognition of her outstanding work in the King's Honours.

So as we approach Armed Forces Day, will the Leader of the House join me in congratulating Donna on her British Empire Medal? For services to veterans and the wider Renfrewshire community, and thank her for her immense contribution to the lives of so many veterans.

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Yes, thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend for this very well-timed question during Armed Forces Week, question during Armed Forces Week, and I do indeed join her in congratulating Donna Louise Armstrong for her years of service Armstrong for her years of service to her local community and her very well deserved British Empire Medal.

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For services to our veterans and community. Her friends and her family should be very, very proud of her. Sir Alec Shelbrooke. Thank you, Madam.

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Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy. Speaker, in the last hour and a half, I've had several emails and telephone calls, and I'll read one of these emails. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am writing this email as I have been reliably informed that bidding has commenced for turning Linton on News RAF base into an immigration detention centre. I am deeply concerned, as this proposal was put forward four years ago and caused great stress and turmoil to our local community. I'd also like to know why the local community was not informed of this decision before decision was made to use the base for something that was deemed unsuitable years ago.

Madam Deputy Speaker, may I ask the Leader of the House whether we can have a statement before the end of today's business, so that some of these questions may be put to the Minister directly before we break for the weekend?

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This was raised earlier. Madam Deputy Speaker, I do understand the concerns of members. Let me take concerns of members. Let me take this away and see if we can get the assurance that not just he, but

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other members, are seeking. Mark Sewards. Thank you very much. Madam Deputy Speaker. As a member of the Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme, I've seen first hand the courage and dedication that our service personnel in the military show each personnel in the military show each and every day, and I want to commend them. During Armed Forces Week. One of my constituents is an Army reservist, newly attested, and he is, of course, proud to serve our country. But his experience shows some of the barriers that they face.

When their training took nearly a year to train, but, crucially, had to spend over £1,000 on travel and equipment on medical appointments. And unfortunately, this barrier resulted in many other dedicated applicants dropping out. So, on his behalf, with the Leader of the House grant a debate on the need to support the recruitment and training of our Army reservists.

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Thank you very much indeed. Madam Deputy. Speaker, my hon. Friend is right

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Speaker, my hon. Friend is right to raise this matter. During Armed Forces Week. Reservists are an integral part of the effectiveness of our armed forces. They do bring experience from defence. They strengthen resilience to provide specialist skills that cannot be specialist skills that cannot be generated or sustained in regular forces alone. I would encourage my forces alone. I would encourage my hon. Friend to seek either a Westminster Hall debate or an adjournment debate, so that he can make the case that he is in greater detail than the strong case that he has made today.



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Jayne Kirkham thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The UK Parliamentary Schools outreach Parliamentary Schools outreach worker for the South West saw 2000 children and 780 adult learners last year in rural and coastal areas. This provision is absolutely vital. Some of my schools can't get vital. Some of my schools can't get to Parliament and the ones that are are struggling to get places. For example, King Charles School in my example, King Charles School in my constituency are in London today and yesterday, but they couldn't come here because there wasn't space.

So I would be grateful if the Leader of the House could find space for a debate in government time about the impact on the on getting rid of this parliamentary schools outreach team upon rural

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and coastal areas, send minorities and people with disabilities. Can you do. That much? Indeed. Madam Deputy

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That much? Indeed. Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank my friend for her question. I do understand that there are concerns. I want to acknowledge at concerns. I want to acknowledge at the beginning the important work of the outreach in educating the public about what Parliament does public about what Parliament does and why it matters. It is, of course, a matter for that House. I know that some members have raised know that some members have raised this directly with the House authorities via oral and written, but I hope, and I'm sure that the House authorities will have heard my hon.

Friend concerns as they

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weigh up this matter. Tom Hayes thank. You, Madam. Deputy Speaker.

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Buried in a bulging Budget consultation is a BCP Council plan to lay off lollipop people in my to lay off lollipop people in my constituency across the whole of BCP, half of the few hundred consultees hadn't used a school consultees hadn't used a school crossing patrol service in a year. Meanwhile, just in my own constituency, my petition has constituency, my petition has received many hundreds of more responses, and all of the respondents are clear they want to save our lollipop people.

I recently met Martin, Georgia, Stella and other members of the school crossing patrol who are doing such fantastic work to be a friendly face at the school gate and to keep kids safe. And I want to thank constituents like Stephanie, Sarah and Lisa, Hazel, Laura and Gina, Paul, Emma and Charlotte who are fighting for their lollipop people. Does the Leader of the House agree with me that BCP Council should think twice, that it should stop laying off lollipop people? And would he write

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to the relevant Minister to arrange a meeting for me and our local lollipop people? Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. My friend

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Madam Deputy Speaker. My friend raises an important matter. Road safety is for children is vital, and the work of lollipop people do and the work of lollipop people do for our young people is of paramount importance, and I hope that those in Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole Council have heard my hon. Friend's contribution today and take his concerns seriously, and I pay tribute to the work of Martin, Stella, George and the many lollipop people across our communities and I hope that this can be resolved properly.
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Mims Davies Portrait Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)
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And the final question. Speaker. >> Earlier this month, the government announced it is putting yet more money into the Lower Thames Crossing, meaning we are now Thames Crossing, meaning we are now due to spend more than £3 billion on a road that costs more per mile than HS2, and we will be privatising away Dartford toll revenues for the privilege. Meanwhile, despite welcome steps by the government for market towns and villages like those in my constituency, buses remain more of a hypothetical concept than a regular and reliable form of daily travel.

So can I genuinely request that we have a debate on ensuring transport spending matches the genuine priorities of our

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constituents? The Speaker My friend knows that bus transport in particular, is a bus transport in particular, is a key priority for this government, and we're making real progress on and we're making real progress on that because they are of such importance to towns and villages. But he will also know that it's not But he will also know that it's not it's not a clear either or in these matters. But if he wants a debate to weigh up what is the best use of to weigh up what is the best use of those resources, then I'd encourage him to apply for Westminster Hall debate or an adjournment debate so that he and others can make the case for the best possible public transport in their local areas.



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And that concludes business questions. I'll just give a few moments for the front benches to

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Now begin Now begin the Now begin the statement. Statement Minister. With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish to make a statement on our Steel Trade Measure which will come into force on Wednesday, the 1st of July. I start with first principles. The UK needs a strong steel sector, both production and downstream, but the whole sector is facing an existential moment. 50 years ago, the UK produced 27 million tons of steel a year. Even in 2010 we produced 12 million tonnes.

But in 2024 we only produced 4 million tonnes and met just 30% of UK steel needs. No government can ever, should ever accept such a sharp decline in an industry that forms the backbone of so many other sectors, including defence. We promised that we would do two things in government in tandem. Firstly, launch a steel strategy tackling all the key issues facing the sector in the round. We published it on the 19th of March. That strategy includes up to £2.5 billion of government investment, on top of the £500 million pledged for steelworks at Port Talbot, plus active support for this energy intensive sector through the British Industry Supercharger.

Secondly, we said we would introduce a robust new steel trade measure that secures the future of the UK steel industry to protect our ability to produce steel for defence and critical national infrastructure. Today I am addressing this latter point. Why do we need the Steel Trade Measure, a key part of the existential threat to UK steel production is global overcapacity, a lack of transparency about international subsidies and artificially depressed global prices, all of which price UK steel out of the market.

For the last eight years, UK steel production has enjoyed some protection thanks to the UK's steel safeguard, which had inherited from the European Union that allowed us to produce categories of steel manufactured in the UK, with quotas and a 25% out of quota tariff. That protection, which was introduced by the previous government, was clearly not sufficient as our steel sector has continued to suffer and in the seven years up to 2024 of the safeguard steel production has continued to fall by 3.3 million tonnes.

A stunning further 45%. We now face a key moment that safeguard legally has to expire on the 30th of June, as WTO rules firmly prevent an extension of a safeguard beyond eight years. It is precisely the same for the European Union. If we put nothing in its place, our steel production sector will lose all its protection. That wouldn't just bring our steel industry to its knees. It would kill it completely. That is why I promised the House that I would not allow a gap between the expiry of the safeguard and the implementation of our future steel trade measures.

We are making good on that promise today. There is an additional concern. Canada, the United States and the European Union have already put in place similar toughened measures to protect their industries. So if we do nothing, or if we delay introducing new measures, we will immediately become the global dumping ground for cheap steel across the world. Again, I say that would mean the end of UK steel production. That is why we must take similar action to the European Union, who announced their measure on October the 7th last year.

So earlier this year we committed to introduce a 50% out of quota tariff on imported steel, and in April published provisional quotas for several key categories of steel. This measure needs to work not just for steel producers, but also, of course, for our manufacturers who depend on steel, those who source it from the UK and those who source it from abroad. Our aim is solely to protect categories of steel that we produce in the UK, so we have deliberately excluded many categories from the measure.

To be absolutely clear, Madam Deputy Speaker, nearly three quarters of UK steel imports by value and 53% by volume are out of scope of this measure. Today I am announcing the final design of our Steel Trade Measure, which will take effect on the same day as measures imposed by the European Union. The total quota volume will now be 3.2 million metric tonnes. That is an increase of over 560,000 metric tonnes of steel that can be imported tariff free compared to the provisional volumes, we announced a significant 21% uplift.

Today's announcement includes the final quotas in each category. Having listened to members and to industry, we have increased the quotas in several instances so as more accurately to protect categories of steel that are manufactured in the UK. Some of the changes reflect the fact that the European Union remains our largest export market for steel, and we have highly interconnected supply chains. Since we announced our measure in March, we have engaged intensively with the European Union and with UK industry. We have reached a mutual outcome with the EU as a result of these discussions.

On our side, we will increase the EU's quota access from the announced 1.58 million tonnes to 2.08 million tonnes. The EU will be announcing quotas under their own measure shortly. This will provide stability for UK. EU steel trade from the 1st of July, while we continue to work together to strengthen UK. EU steel trade longer term. We have also worked closely with our international partners and we are committed to constructive engagement with them on our steel measure and we will continue to prioritise working with our partners to tackle overcapacity.

I want to be very honest with colleagues. There are tough trade offs here. We are determined to ensure that steel continues to be forged and made right here in the UK, and by proud, steel making communities across the UK, in Port Talbot, in Motherwell, in Scunthorpe, in Sheffield, on Teesside. The labour movement was forged in these communities just as steel was, and we won't let them down. But we know that businesses will sometimes need to find specialised steel that we simply can't procure here in the UK.

In these cases, quotas have been designed to allow for imports and to ensure continued availability for UK businesses without additional unnecessary costs. To ensure continuity within supply chains for business, we are also introducing a transitional arrangement. It means that our new trade measure will not apply to steel under contract before the 14th of March, and imported between the 1st of July and the 30th of September. We will conduct a review after 12 months and actively monitor implementation of the measure from day one to ensure it operates as intended and remains responsive to emerging evidence and stakeholder feedback.

Madam Deputy Speaker, there are some who think steel is an industry of the past. Others think the market alone should provide. Just buy it as cheap as you can, whatever the cost to British industry. I couldn't disagree more because I know how that script runs. We buy cheap this year and next year and maybe for a decade, unable to compete. Our national steel industry dies. In the meantime, every single UK steel mill closes, and then suddenly and miraculously, the global price rockets up and we have nowhere to turn because we would be caught in a trap of our own making.

That is why I say to those who worry about our measure today, and I fully understand those concerns and will seek to address them, that this is in the interests of the whole sector, producers and users alike. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will be hosting a drop in surgery for members on Monday the 29th of June from 315 to 5 p.m. where colleagues can meet with me and officials to discuss any concerns or understand the impact of this measure on their particular businesses in their own constituency.

I hope that that will be of convenience to members. I would especially like to thank my officials, including Beth Sedgwick, Malta Turner and Chris Taylor and the wonderful Lola Oats in my private office for all the work that they have done on this. I commend this statement to the House. commend this statement to the House.
13:23
Olivia Bailey Portrait Olivia Bailey MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Reading West and Mid Berkshire, Labour)
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Minister. Andrew Griffith. Minister for advanced sight of today's statement. We on this side of the House welcome the partial U-turns that have been announced and the engagement that's happened, and the reflection, even at this very late hour, that the original proposals the government made would have done great damage to British manufacturing. This decision could, however, have come months ago. And if not, it could have come weeks ago when members in this House, as well as businesses, started raising the alarm and engaging with the department.

It took this government, if you remember, more than a year and three quarters, to come up with its original steel strategy, and yet now the industry are expected to adjust with fewer than one week to go. That is not a reasonable way on which to proceed. The government has left untouched the 50% tariff rate, and that will do great damage to British manufacturing, to house builders and those who construct the nation's infrastructure higher inflation, fewer jobs, fewer homes, fewer public projects.

The government has made some concessions today. Welcome on how much steel can be brought in, but nothing on the rate that punishes imported steel. The very moment that the quota is exceeded. I know, and he knows that he has received significant private representations from industry on this issue, particularly in the case of defence and aerospace. And I imagine he does understand it won't be enough. Of the 60 codes that we believe are relevant to aerospace and space, just two codes have been removed, and while quota uplifts have been applied, they are not particularly useful to the small scale.

But high value defence manufacturers as commodity buyers will snap up all of those quotas at the start of the year before they get a look in. As a result, we are, I'm sad to say, putting the defence of this country at risk by imposing a shock to
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13:29
Jess Brown-Fuller Portrait Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)
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don't think that the hon. Member understands how this works. Any single element of it, to be honest. single element of it, to be honest. Let me first address his point about the timing, and I would have much preferred to have been able to much preferred to have been able to give much greater notice to everybody, and I worked to do towards being able to do that. towards being able to do that. Unfortunately, one of the key parts of the interaction is with the European Union, and we only completed our negotiations with the European Union over the last few days.

And I would point out that the EU themselves have not announced their quotas, either with us or for any other country as yet, and won't be doing so until Monday. So I wanted to bring this forward as soon as I possibly could. And he refers to U-turns. We've actually listened to some of the concerns that people have had, both specific businesses, and some of them I know are very pleased with some of the categories that we've changed and the quotas that we've increased, but also to hon.

Members in the chamber who brought concerns either both in the chamber itself or directly to Ministers. And we've tried to address as many of those issues as we can. But I need, as I said in the statement, there are difficult trade offs here. And when it comes, he suggests that we should have that we should cut the 50% tariff rate. I'm not sure that that's a point that he's made anywhere previously, but if we had a lower tariff rate than other countries and in particular the European Union, we would.

And this is why I don't think he understands how any of this works. We would immediately become the dumping ground for all the cheap steel in the world. I mean, that's precisely what we would be a magnet for that. And we will be exacerbating the problem that we already have for steel production in the UK. And he raised the question about defence. Now, I've looked very carefully at this. And of course, he wrote a letter I think, this morning which was making some rather ill founded remarks about what's likely to happen to defence.

Obviously, first of all, Sheffield Forgemasters is already providing significant amounts in the. Of UK steel precisely into the UK defence sector. I also actually want to see when we when the Defence Investment Plan is produced, I want it to be delivering jobs in the UK rather than just everywhere else in the world, and I'd like more of our defence expenditure of our defence industry to be based on using UK steel, because I think then that's a double win for us.

And I just note that when they when the previous government was in place, they commissioned type 26 frigates, 65% of that steel came from Sweden and type 31 frigates, all of steel from Finland for Royal Fleet auxiliary tide class tankers, 44,000 tons of steel from Korea. And when the dreadnought class nuclear ballistic missile submarines were. Were commissioned by them, where did the steel come from? From France. We can do far, far better than this. It is absolutely preposterous that only 30% of UK steel needs are being met by UK steel production.

We need to get that number up. We've committed to getting it to 50% and that's why I am immensely supportive of this measure that we're introducing today. I also want to just make it clear not only that a lot of categories of steel, as I said, three quarters of the steel by value by by value is not covered at all, is not in scope in this at all. So it can come in and out of the UK without any tariff at all.

Also, of course, the 50% is not a tariff on all the steel in a particular category. It's only on that above the quota. And in significant areas we've increased the quota precisely so that, for instance, in category four, category six, category 12 A and category seven, which is particularly important for the defence sector, the final quotas are higher than the levels of historic trade, because some of the previous quotas weren't even being fully used. So I'm afraid the hon. Member is wrong in nearly every single element of his analysis.

And that's not the first time, is it?

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Nia Griffith Madam Deputy Speaker well, whilst I certainly welcome the protection of our steel welcome the protection of our steel industry, I do remain concerned about some tariffs and quotas affecting some products. But I am affecting some products. But I am really pleased to hear the Minister reiterate what the Industry Minister said on Wednesday that Minister said on Wednesday that alongside measures to protect our industry, our government is absolutely committed to increasing the range of products that we make the range of products that we make in the UK.

So to that end, would he agree to meet with me about a proposal from a constituent of mine in Llanelli about opening a manufacturing facility to produce steel bands, which are currently have to be imported from the EU, so we can bring that production back

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here to the UK. It's an extremely well made point. And in fact, gun barrel manufacturing is now being done in the UK again thanks to a Sheffield Forgemasters contract which has Forgemasters contract which has been secured. And we need to bring more of these categories back into UK production, and I'm very happy UK production, and I'm very happy to meet with those. She might want to come along to the surgery that I'm doing Monday afternoon with officials. If she wants to talk to officials.

If she wants to talk to me or if she knows how to find me, then then we can make sure that we do that. But she's absolutely right. We need to increase the total quantity of steel that we're producing in the UK. We need to protect what we're already doing, and we need to find new areas where we can produce steel. We will never do that unless we introduce steel. Tough and protections and in trade measures to deal with the problem of global overcapacity.
13:31
Olivia Bailey Portrait Olivia Bailey MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Reading West and Mid Berkshire, Labour)
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Lib dem spokesperson Lisa Smart. >> Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm grateful to the Minister for advance sight of his statement. Steel matters. It matters for our national security, matters for our national security, for our defence, for our critical infrastructure, and it sustains jobs right across the United Kingdom. British Steel supports thousands of jobs and over £1 billion of economic activity through its own operations and supply chain, and it underpins hundreds of thousands more jobs and several billion pounds of activity across the industries that depend on it.

It has been battered by Trump's trade war and by years of unfair practices from China. Steel is an industry worth defending, and Liberal Democrats support that goal. But we've been vocal about our concerns regarding the impact of the government's proposed tariffs on downstream manufacturers, downstream steel using industries employ 300,000 people, including some of my own Hazel Grove constituents. A blanket approach risks weakening a far larger manufacturing jobs base while doing little to protect British Steel. I'm pleased that the government has listened to our concerns and the concerns of industry.

The quota increase and product code removals are positive steps. So I have just three questions. First, categories 14 and 27. Specialist steels required by aerospace, defence, Formula one and Precision Engineering and which cannot be sourced domestically in the required grades and volumes. Do these categories fall within the 11 product codes which have been removed from the arrangements? Second, the transitional arrangements only protect contracts signed before the 14th of March. What protection exists for manufacturers who sign contracts in good faith between March and today? And third, the WTO process will begin in the autumn.

Could the Minister confirm that any permanent tariff increases resulting from that process will not permanently lock in higher tariffs on specialist deals that cannot be

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sourced domestically? Minister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. On. I think she was getting a On. I think she was getting a little bit confused between product codes and categories. So in codes and categories. So in categories 40, if I start with 17 we've increased the the quota by a we've increased the the quota by a significant amount. And I hope that that will reflect the lack of production that there is at the production that there is at the moment.

It's an issue that several members have already raised with me, and that we've done that specifically to answer those questions. And likewise, in category 14, which is stainless bars and light sections, the she asked about the transition arrangements. I already referred to that in my statement. If she wants further detail, she can come and talk to me about it on Monday. And I didn't fully understand. I'm afraid I'm not sure whether Ministers are meant to admit that, but I didn't fully understand the last question.

So if she if she wants to either grab me later or

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drop me a note, then I will respond to her that way. Sureena Brackenridge. Madam Deputy Speaker, Tata Steel

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Madam Deputy Speaker, Tata Steel Park in Westfield and manufacturers across Wolverhampton North East and across Wolverhampton North East and the Black Country rely on resilient supply chains for steel. Can the Minister set out how today's statement on increased quotas and for steel that's already under for steel that's already under contract before the 14th of March, will continue to back British made steel production, whilst also giving downstream manufacturers the competitive certainty and

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confidence that they need. Well, my my hon. Member is my hon. Friend is absolutely right to hon. Friend is absolutely right to defend the the constituents interests, and we have tried to meet the precise concerns that meet the precise concerns that she's raising, and I'm very happy to go through with her on Monday afternoon if she wants. In each of afternoon if she wants. In each of the different categories of steel which might be applicable to hers, which might be applicable to hers, I would say that I think some some people have given the impression that we are cutting all categories of steel and that nobody will be able to bring in categories of steel without being tariffed.

But actually, the quotas in most areas are allow for historic levels of imports. And in other areas where we do produce in the UK, we are trying to persuade people to buy British Steel and use British Steel. That that is the whole aim of the measure. So we are trying to get two wins out of this. And as I say, I'm happy to take her through this

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very specifics in relation to individual categories if she wants on Monday afternoon. Martin Vickers thank you, Madam

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Martin Vickers thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Hundreds of my constituents work at Scunthorpe constituents work at Scunthorpe Steel, so I'm obviously supportive of any action that the government take that will protect those jobs. take that will protect those jobs. But and I welcome the adjustments that the Minister has announced that the Minister has announced today, and I agree with him that it's preposterous that defence contracts, for example, do not ensure that we use British steel. Surely one of the benefits of not being tied to EU procurement procurement rules should allow us to do that.

But would the Minister all agree that it's within the government's gift to ensure that the industry benefits from reduced energy costs? And what will the government be doing to ensure that Scunthorpe Works do benefit from lower energy costs in the very near future?

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Mr. Well, he will know that the supercharger. We made the. We changed the rules in in April of changed the rules in in April of this year so that taking up the support from 60% to 90% of energy costs. Because the point is well costs. Because the point is well made about energy costs being one of the things that have made it very difficult for steel over the very difficult for steel over the last decade. Just on whether we're better being in or out of the European Union.

I mean, one of the European Union. I mean, one of the ironies of is if we were in the European Union, of course, we wouldn't have to be negotiating with the European Union about their imposition of tariffs and quotas on us. So I'm not sure that that is a very good line of argument. Final point I'd make is I was really pleased to in Kyiv in January to see a bridge that one of the six bridges that had been rebuilt by British, by which had been destroyed when the Russians were trying to invade Kyiv, had been rebuilt.

And guess where the steel was made? The United Kingdom. That's the kind of thing that we should be investing in.
13:33
Tonia Antoniazzi Portrait Tonia Antoniazzi MP (Gower, Labour)
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Nick Smith thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My constituency of Deputy Speaker. My constituency of Blaenau Gwent and Rumney has many steel fabrication businesses, some steel fabrication businesses, some of whom I visited recently for this announcement. Can the Minister announcement. Can the Minister please outline how he has listened to these sort of businesses and their concerns?

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Well, my first of all, I and my officials have spoken a great deal to the kind of businesses that he's to the kind of businesses that he's talking about, not all of them, but a large number of them. And we've we've tried to explain that we are only trying to tackle those categories of steel, which can and categories of steel, which can and are being produced in the UK. Those are the ones that we're trying to protect, for the obvious reason that he will fully understand, as that he will fully understand, as the South Wales Valleys MP like myself.

But. And that's meant that we've been. We have increased some of the quotas to allow more tariff free quota interest imports into the. Precisely to answer the question that some of his companies may have. Now, if. Again, if he wants to go through the specifics in relation to the. The companies he has in his in his own patch, I'm very happy to do that, but I think quite. I won't have pleased everybody. I very rarely ever have in my life, but I didn't mean to unite the chamber on that point.

But. But we have tried to listen

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where we possibly can, but there are difficult trade offs here. David Chadwick thank you, Madam

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David Chadwick thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The imposition of tariff barriers alone is not a sufficient step to help address the shortcomings in our steel industry, shortcomings in our steel industry, and the Minister said that it's important to provide more opportunities to help people buy British Steel. But there's a difference between saying things like this and then making it happen. He'll be well aware that at the moment we lack the heavy plate, steel and plate rolling capability needed for building the offshore wind turbines that could be made in Port Talbot, rather than having to be imported from abroad.

While specialist plate for defence applications is also limited. So what's the government doing to close those strategic capability close those strategic capability gaps? And has it assessed whether developing a heavy plate mill at Port Talbot could help to underpin Port Talbot could help to underpin the offshore wind industry that we could build in the Celtic Sea? could build in the Celtic Sea?
13:34
Olivia Bailey Portrait Olivia Bailey MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Reading West and Mid Berkshire, Labour)
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The hon. Member makes a really good point and that's why we have a steel strategy as well as the Steel Trade Measure. This. This is only part of the steel strategy. My hon. Friend the Industry Minister I know was in the chamber answering an urgent question on on some of these issues last week. Some of the energy matters that have been raised by others are key to making sure that that's happened. And also, of course, government procurement policy. One of the first things we did when we arrived in government in 2024 was introduce a new procurement strategy in relation to steel.

The very least we could do is make sure that when the government is spending taxpayers money, it's spending taxpayers

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money wherever it possibly can. On British Steel. Alex Barros-Curtis very much, Madam Deputy Speaker and I refer to my membership of GMB and unite. I thank the Minister, my right hon. thank the Minister, my right hon. Friend for his statement, and I understand the trade offs he's referred to and the need to take measures to rebalance the sector. He he knows, because we've spoken about it a lot with respect to the steel strategy. It refers to future steel strategy.

It refers to future UK steel making being 50% of that being Welsh steel. So I wonder if you could just say a little bit more about that, because that's something my constituents are particularly passionate about.

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Yes. And there's a very fetching photograph of himself, of him and photograph of himself, of him and me. At the electric arc Furnace in Cardiff, Seven Steel. And it's it's Cardiff, Seven Steel. And it's it's a very impressive operation. It's very impressive photograph. But he very impressive photograph. But he makes a very good point. We want to get to 50% of UK steel needs being get to 50% of UK steel needs being met by UK steel, by British made steel.

It's a very simple and campaign we want. But as I say, we've we've had decades now of decline in this sector. We are at an absolutely critical moment. I've heard people say, why can't you just delay this measure for a few months? That would be the end of UK production of steel completely and utterly. And we simply cannot allow that to happen for our defence needs, for our infrastructure needs, for our national security, frankly.

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And that is why we are committed in the way that we are. Sir Julian Smith. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister spoke about monitoring of this policy from day one, but a of this policy from day one, but a review not for 12 months. What is the monitoring going to comprise of, and what happens if that monitoring shows problems, you know, very early on? Will he have to wait until that review after 12 months? until that review after 12 months? Or how is he going to implement impacts and analysis from that monitoring?

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Minister. It's a very fair point. One of the there are two things that we've the there are two things that we've tried to do in an area in key areas. Obviously, we want to make sure that people are able to maintain that people are able to maintain historic trade flows. So we need to monitor monitor how those trade flows are progressing. And we're flows are progressing. And we're able to do that with HMRC on a on a regular basis. And if there is a
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Rebecca Paul Portrait Rebecca Paul MP (Reigate, Conservative)
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regular basis. And if there is a sudden spike, then we may need to address that. There may be special events such as there was a fire in Port Talbot the other day. Now, that hasn't actually provided the kind of problem that we thought it might. So we've been able to stick with our plans. But Speciality steel, for instance, has not been able to get up and running yet, which is why we adjusted some of the codes in here and that we always reserve the right if we absolutely have to, to make a significant intervention during that period.

But I want to be able to provide industry with as much predictability, predictability as possible. And that's why we're

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talking about a one year review. Gurinder Josan. Madam Deputy Speaker and Peckham. Minister Speaker and Peckham. Minister statement. And I also welcome the engagement with members from the ministerial team to understand the concerns of our businesses. I have very previously, the challenges very previously, the challenges faced by downstream producers in in the Black Country in my constituency, including private constituency, including private housewares who uses steel suitable for kitchenware. And we're facing a 60% hike in raw materials cost.

And the challenges faced by the industry who are already looking to reduce headcount. And there are further knock on effects in their supply chain. So I welcome the increase in quotas and the removal of the majority of category from the scope of the measure. But can the Minister explain how the Department has been and will be working with individual businesses to understand their concerns and

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support them going forward? Minister. I've never known a policy area

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I've never known a policy area that has been so depends on the detail and the granular detail that applies to individual companies, applies to individual companies, and obviously, individual codes and categories of different steel. I did talk to one business who were did talk to one business who were very concerned at the beginning of our conversation, because they thought that all of their steel thought that all of their steel imports were going to be covered by would be in scope, and that they would be tariffed at 50%.

It turned out that they didn't actually use a category of steel that was used that's being covered in scope at all, which is why I'm very keen to go through in in fine detail where I possibly can with members. And I know he's raised the issue about ceramics and bakeware as well. Very happy to have that conversation.

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And perhaps if you'd like to come along and talk with officials on Monday afternoon, that'd be great. Richard Price.

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Richard Price. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the Minister and his his departmental colleagues on his departmental colleagues on listening to representations made, and I think it's worth reinforcing and I think it's worth reinforcing that some 75% of steel imports are not impacted by this measure, which is good news. But does the Minister agree with me that the reason we're agree with me that the reason we're in this pickle is because the previous administration had no steel strategy for 14 years and

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allowed the whole industry to collapse by 66%. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I think I'm going to have to resign because I agree with every single word of

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what the hon. Gentleman just said. Josh Fenton-Glynn thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome the Minister's statement today. In Minister's statement today. In particular, the decision to remove products where there isn't domestic production that will make a real difference to specialist difference to specialist manufacturers in Calder Valley, but they are understandably worried that the tariffs will mean what the tariffs will mean for the business. Can I, in particular clarify whether galvanised wire products, something I've written to the Secretary of State about, are covered by the exemption because companies like Siddall and Hilton in my constituency who make specialist fencing, can't get the UK produced supply and therefore get inputs from the EU, Turkey and the UAE.
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Olivia Bailey Portrait Olivia Bailey MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Reading West and Mid Berkshire, Labour)
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I'm grateful to the comments, and I know he's raised some of these issues, but both with the Secretary of State and with the Industry Minister as well, I think I think it's probably best if we go through this in granular detail with in relation to the particular companies concerns. I just want to correct this idea of there being an exemption. There isn't an exemption. It's just that some categories of steel are we are including in the trade measures and some we're not.

As the hon. Member for reform just said, 75 or nearly 75% is actually 74% of of steel imports are not covered by the the the trade measure at all.

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Kit Malthouse thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I too, am very grateful to the Minister and his colleagues for the flexibility that colleagues for the flexibility that they've shown so far, and I will come and see him on on Monday. Just a couple of things. First of all, a couple of things. First of all, could he just be a little clearer about how dynamic he's going to be on on quotas? At first, look to me on on quotas? At first, look to me in the businesses in my constituency that are concerned, some of the quotas look a bit tight.

If there is a sudden spike in If there is a sudden spike in prices following the imposition, is he able to move quickly and if so, how quickly? Because obviously decisions are made with a long term view. Secondly, he said he doesn't want the UK. Without these quotas, the UK would become a dumping ground for cheap steel. We may well now become a dumping ground for cheap fabricated products. So what's he going to do on fabricated products alongside? And thirdly, obviously this means the government is going to be collecting millions of pounds from British businesses, importing steel, who are still going to import above the quota.

What's going to happen to that money? Good question.

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The last question is a very clever one, which that's a matter for the Chancellor, however, I think. But just on fabricated steel, he makes a really good point, which I know several people made in the in the Urgent Question last week or in the Urgent Question last week or whatever it was, I was in Turkey trying to negotiate a free trade agreement with them and in fact, agreement with them and in fact, talking a bit about steel as well. It's a good point.

We will look at It's a good point. We will look at that. I don't want to over promise on the idea that the moment, you know, there's a fluctuation in prices that we as a government are suddenly going to move in and change all the quotas. Because I think that that predictability and continuity is often as important for business as anything else. They know the terms under which they're operating. And so I don't want to overpromise. Our main point is that we will do a review after a year, and we will engage with everybody all the way through.

Well, no, he's he's saying from a sedentary position that nothing will change. Well, I just trying to moderate his expectations of change. But
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David Burton-Sampson Portrait David Burton-Sampson MP (Southend West and Leigh, Labour)
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obviously if there is a very significant exceptional moment, then we may need to act. The kind of thing that I'm talking about is speciality steel. For instance, when we started this process, we when we started this process, we thought that it would be up and running again. It's not now, and that's one of the reasons that we've been able to change those we've been able to change those categories quotas. But but I don't want to give the expectation that at the moment somebody experiences at the moment somebody experiences some some concern that we're suddenly going to change.

Because in the end, as I say, there are difficult trade offs here. We do want to make sure that UK production of steel survives and

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and grows. Chris Vince thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Minister for his statement. He is Minister for his statement. He is very much the government's man of steel. Protecting British Steel making capacity means we have reliable supply for years to come. reliable supply for years to come. But can the Minister confirm that this announcement is good news for downstream producers in my downstream producers in my constituency, like MRI fabrications, ER, WC engineering and my favourite, the Harlow Group, all based in the Harlow Group, all based in Harlow and both for today and for years to come.



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If I just had a bit of advice to my hon. Friend. I know he's relatively new to the house, but I wouldn't have favourites in in wouldn't have favourites in in one's own constituency because then the other people who aren't your favourites end up being very, very irritated with you. I have 14 rugby clubs and I have to be very, very careful. The. But he makes a very careful. The. But he makes a very good point, I think just to deal with the individual companies, it probably a good idea if we came along on Monday afternoon.

I'm

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along on Monday afternoon. I'm making a lot of dates, aren't I? Yeah. Lincoln Jopp thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm grateful to the Minister, the Secretary of State for his statement. When his Minister came here with the statement the other day, I asked him about Thames covers. There are boat fitters in my constituency. They rely on stainless steel tubing, and I got lots of warm words about. We're going to go away and consult. I, I I've listened to his statement and read it in great detail.

Today is stainless steel tubing, something which is now not going to be hit by an additional 50% price, which is what their suppliers are telling them. I'm seeing Thames covers tomorrow at 2:15 p.m. I'd

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love to be able to give them a definitive answer. I'm afraid he's going to have to come along on Monday afternoon. I come along on Monday afternoon. I just I don't want to give him a false answer now or an inaccurate answer now, so I'm very happy. If answer now, so I'm very happy. If he wants to grab me now with officials, then I'll try and give him the precise answer. I just want him the precise answer. I just want to make it absolutely clear that some people, I think, have gained some people, I think, have gained the impression that all their steel will automatically immediately, if it's imported, be subject to 50% tariffs.

I know he understands this, but some other people have clearly misunderstood that. It's only the out of quota stuff that is subject to 50% tariffs. And in many categories, I'm not sure whether I'm not sure about the precise category that his company uses. The quota is bigger than historic trade flows. In other words, there is no reason why they should be affected. But I don't want to give him a false impression, so I'm very happy to either see him at the back of the chamber afterwards or on Monday afternoon.
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Olivia Bailey Portrait Olivia Bailey MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Reading West and Mid Berkshire, Labour)
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Jess Brown-Fuller thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm going Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm going to change my question on the hoof based on what the Minister just said, because does he share my concern for the smaller steel concern for the smaller steel fabricators that can't buy large bulk orders of steel? They are reliant on being able to order when reliant on being able to order when an order comes in for them. I have a steel fabricator in my constituency. They're called S fabs. They're a fifth generation business, and they are telling me that this is the hardest they have ever had it.

It's worse than Covid. They're not sure that they're going to be able to survive because overseas manufacturers are just going to start fabricating steel to avoid the tariffs. So can he please reflect on the effect of the small and medium sized fabricators that currently feel like the strategy is all to protect British Steel, and they're behind that, but it's at the at the detriment to those

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downstream providers. Yeah. Look, the hon. Lady is not the only person who's raised this point only person who's raised this point about fabricated steel to me. And it's one of the things that we do have to watch very, very closely. It's one of the things we'll be looking at from day one. I can't promise that. That means we're suddenly going to include include fabricated steel, but it's something we have to be careful of. One of the dangers and other. I think only Canada has introduced a similar measure in relation to fabricated steel, but their.

Their steel measure is much tougher than ours and covers. I'm think I'm about to say more categories. And that's why they've. They've also introduced a kind of compensation scheme. Now I don't I hope we won't need to go down that route. When some countries have suggested increasing fabricated steel, then that provides a different incentive, which can be just as counterproductive. So so again, there will be trade offs in that sphere. And again, I'm very happy to meet with her on Monday

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along. Final question. Jim Shannon. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. First of all, can I thank the First of all, can I thank the Minister very much for his statement and for his clear commitment and define things and commitment and define things and make things better for us. And it's a real pleasure to hear a statement with such so much positivity. And I with such so much positivity. And I want to ask a question for Northern Ireland specifically, will the Minister acknowledge that the severe, disproportionate impact severe, disproportionate impact that stringent steel tariffs and red tape is having on manufacturing and emergency businesses across Northern Ireland? And can I ask the Minister this question to commit to providing immediate financial mitigation or regular flexibility for Northern Ireland steel users, thereby to ensure that our foundational industries are not penalised by mainland trade policies and the complexities of

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the Windsor framework? Thank you so much. I've got pages and pages on the

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I've got pages and pages on the Windsor framework in relation to this, and it only comes up as the last two words in the whole of the last two words in the whole of the statement. Apart from the else, part of our negotiations with the European Union has had to be around how we make sure that there's proper provision for Northern Ireland. And when the EU announces Ireland. And when the EU announces its measures on Monday, I hope that he'll be pleased with what we've got to on all of that.

I think he asked about financial mitigation, which I think means compensation. And and I I'm I'm afraid I'm not able to offer that. I want to be very straight with him. As I say, there are trade offs here. We need to make sure that we have a strong steel sector. My. I was thinking about my two grandfathers. One grandfather was a a naval draughtsman and an architect on Clydeside. And my other grandfather worked on the rail on on the railways in the docks in Cardiff.

Both of them. Steel was absolutely essential to them. I'm sure when they were working in Glasgow or in on Clydeside or in Cardiff, they would have expected all the steel to have been made in the United Kingdom. And that's where we. If we don't take this step today, we will find that we won't have any British Steel at all, and that's why we're keen to take the necessary and I believe, proportionate steps that we're taking.
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Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine MP (Edinburgh West, Liberal Democrat)
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And that concludes the statement. Point of order, Andrew Griffith. I know in a former life the Minister was punctilious about standards in this House, so I just would seek your advice as to how he may correct the record. He referred to a letter that I believe he said his office had received this morning or yesterday. In fact, the Minister, the Department will have received copies of two letters. Madam Deputy Speaker one, which was sent a week ago, not on my behalf, but on behalf of hundreds of thousands of small manufacturing businesses who were desperately worried with one week to go before tariffs.

There was a second letter, Madam Deputy Speaker, on Tuesday of this week, jointly with myself and the Shadow Defence Secretary, again, on behalf of that vital industry that keeps us all safe. I have not yet received a reply to either of those. I wouldn't necessarily have expected that, but it wouldn't be

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right to, for the record, to reflect that he'd only received the letter this morning. I thank the hon. Gentleman for

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I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. The Minister is in his place and may wish to respond. Minister.

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respond. Minister. Well, well, I'm grateful for the correction. I'm terribly sorry. I was only referring to the latter was only referring to the latter letter. We've had a lot of letters on this, and I and I appreciate, frankly, the fact that lots of members have written to Ministers members have written to Ministers about it. We've tried to respond as quickly as we could as soon as we were able to, once we'd settled the final quotas and. And I also wanted to come to the House, to be clear, precisely what we've done to meet some of the concerns, and I do try to answer my letters as punctiliously as I possibly can.

You don't have to have been a priest in the Church of England to do that, though. God is working her purpose out. As year succeeds to year.

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I thank members for their time. If we can just give a few moments for the front benches to swap over, please. And we will now start please. And we will now start the statement on the publication of draft Conversion Practices Bill for Pre-legislative scrutiny. Minister. Deputy.

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Speaker, if I may just start with an apology to the opposition spokesperson, I had intended that my statement would have been sent my statement would have been sent much earlier today, and I understand that it didn't receive reach you in time. I do apologise for that because it certainly was for that because it certainly was not my intent. Madam Deputy Speaker, with permission, I would like to make a statement about the make a statement about the Conversion Practices Bill, which we are publishing in draft today.

Madam Deputy Speaker, across this Madam Deputy Speaker, across this House, we can all agree that nobody deserves to be abused, no matter who you are. But right now, gaps in the law are allowing a very specific form of abuse to occur. Abuse driven by the false belief that being Lgbt+ is shameful by the false belief that it can be forcibly changed, that if you cause someone enough pain, you will somehow stop them being who they are. People shamed in front of a congregation and pushed to the ground to try and remove the devil, their families threatening to rape and murder them if they do not change their identity.

People beaten or sexually assaulted by someone trying to correct who they are. Real stories. Real people, real abusers getting away with it. And Madam Deputy Speaker, today, with this legislation that stops. Madam Deputy Speaker, the draft bill we are publishing today fills gaps in our existing criminal law to ban abusive conversion practices, and it gives victims and authorities a clear definition with which to identify, tackle and prevent this abuse. Specifically, the bill creates a new criminal offence of abusive conversion practice measured by three specific criteria first, conduct intended to change a person's sexual orientation or transgender identity.

Second, conduct that is abusive in line with other criminal law. Third, conduct that causes serious harm, alarm or distress, which has a substantial effect on the victim's day to day activities. We have listened to concerns that this legislation must not create a loophole which pushes abuse abroad, and have included a second offence banning, encouraging or assisting an abusive conversion practice outside England and Wales. And we are also creating new conversion practice protection orders to support victims, as well as those currently at risk of abuse.

These
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Olivia Bailey Portrait Olivia Bailey MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Reading West and Mid Berkshire, Labour)
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will be similar to protection orders for forced marriage and female genital mutilation, and can female genital mutilation, and can protect people even before abuse has happened. Breach of a protection order may be prosecuted protection order may be prosecuted as a criminal offence. Offences will carry a maximum penalty of will carry a maximum penalty of five years in custody or a fine, while breaching a protection order carries a maximum penalty of two carries a maximum penalty of two years or a fine.

In addition to the new measures in this bill, the government will continue to fund the Conversion Practices Support Helpline and is taking wider action to tackle abuse against the Lgbt+ community, including equalising hate crime legislation through the Crime and Policing Act. Madam Deputy Speaker, in developing this bill, I have consulted widely and I have spoken to many who have legitimate concerns about legislating in this area. I have heard concerns about freedom of expression on parental rights and on religious freedoms. I have spoken to therapists who worry that their important exploratory work with young people might be impacted, that they may be accused themselves of conversion practices.

And I want to be completely clear today. I have heard those concerns and acted on them. This bill does not remove anyone's rights to freedom of expression or religion, or how to parent. This bill simply prevents abuse and to ensure there is no inadvertent, chilling effect on important health care. There is an exemption for all health care professionals on the face of the bill. Mr. Speaker, Madam Deputy Speaker, I apologise. Across the globe, countries are acting to ban conversion practices. We have learned from the 28 different countries who have some sort of ban in place.

We have drawn on the important framework from the Council of Europe, fought for by my friend, the hon. Member for Jarrow and Gateshead East. We've studied the evidence on the prevalence and types of conversion practice abuse, and we're clear about where there are gaps in the law. And in the bill published today, we are confident we have learnt the right lessons and got the balance right. A comprehensive ban on abusive conversion practices with no loopholes, with clarity that we will not inadvertently impinge on freedom of expression, important health care and the ability to parent.

How you choose. Madam Deputy Speaker, there has been a cross-party consensus for years on
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Alex Barros-Curtis Portrait Mr Alex Barros-Curtis MP (Cardiff West, Labour)
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the importance of this ban. It was Baroness May who first promised legislation back in 2018, and there are members on the benches opposite who have held my job and worked who have held my job and worked hard on this issue. This ban has been in the manifestos of parties from across the political spectrum because despite our other political differences, we can all agree that abuse is unacceptable. And I hope, sincerely, that this is an issue where we can work constructively across the House.

I welcome cross-party engagement as we discuss our draft legislation, and that is why we have requested and welcome Pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft bill by a joint committee. I am confident that this process will make our bill stronger. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are people today suffering crushing, hateful abuse because someone has decided their identity is wrong and that it can be changed. Abuse that is allowed to happen because our current legal framework simply does not acknowledge it. I understand that this draft bill will cause debate.

These are not easy issues, but I welcome that challenge and I welcome that debate because we cannot let fear of argument prevent us remembering what matters, that it's our job, our moral responsibility, to prevent this pernicious abuse. And I am confident the bill we are

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publishing today will do just that. Shadow Minister Mims Davies.

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Shadow Minister Mims Davies. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and the Minister for the brief sight of the statement, and I thank sight of the statement, and I thank her for her apology. Let me start by setting out a principle that I believe rightly commands the believe rightly commands the support across this House. We must protect people from harm. Violence, abuse and coercion are wrong, unequivocally so. And they are also already illegal. Under our current framework, the offences exist, the powers exist, and many she has used as examples are already rightly illegal.

This is a challenging area, so we must be careful that bad laws do not get onto the statute book. The duty before us is to consider whether any new legislation is necessary, proportionate and workable. There is a fundamental question about the current evidence base underpinning

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This proposal. So in any change, the government must demonstrate why existing criminal law is insufficient and how a new offence would materially improve outcomes would materially improve outcomes if a non-abusive conversion practice isn't a crime, then why would we write it into a new law? would we write it into a new law? Is the Minister that a mother helping their child with their feelings when growing up is not accidentally being criminalised? What we are doing, perhaps when it comes to an invasion of young lives and how we support children and parents to go through any childhood issues.

So we must be honest about the risk of unintended consequences to families and parents. It is right to highlight the real concern that broadly drafted provisions, particularly in relation to gender identity, could have a chilling effect on those acting in good faith and stopping our young people having the time and the space to find out who they are and are comfortable being parents, teachers, clinicians and therapists must be able to support, guide and, where appropriate, challenge. That is not harm, that is safeguarding gender related distress is complex and requires requires careful, sensitive and roundly exploratory engagement.

If this bill has the effect, whether intended or not, of creating an affirmation only culture, than we do risk failing the very young people we are trying to protect. We have always already seen the catastrophic impact where professionals have felt unable to raise legitimate concerns, most notably on the grooming gang scandal. We must never sacrifice safeguarding for ideology. So turning to the questions for the Minister, and these are real ones and the Minister laid out this is difficult.

Firstly, regarding the Pre-legislative scrutiny, to confirm it will be by joint committee of both houses, given the legal, ethical and societal complexity of the issue. Can the government ensure the vital scrutiny is broad and rigorous? Second, will the government undertake its own full, full public
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Olivia Bailey Portrait Olivia Bailey MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Reading West and Mid Berkshire, Labour)
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consultation in addition to any evidence gathering process carried out by the scrutiny committee? This affects families, clinicians, faith affects families, clinicians, faith groups, individuals across the country. Their voices, too, must be heard directly in this. Thirdly, heard directly in this. Thirdly, can the government guarantee that the exploratory therapy will be explicitly protected in the bill, explicitly protected in the bill, alongside appropriate support for those who do detransition? Cases those who do detransition? Cases such as that, as Keira Bell have highlighted, the importance of ensuring that individuals can reflect on and, where necessary, reassess any earlier decisions.

Professionals not must not be deterred from providing that support. Fourth, can the Minister explain how the Bill will recognise the principle of informed consent for adults engaging in exploratory therapy in relation to gender distress, consenting adults must remain free to discuss, question and explore their experiences without fear of criminal sanction. Fifth, how will the proposed legislation interact with the existing safeguarding guidance, particularly in schools, children, homes and social services? For those working on the front line and safeguarding, they too need need clarity and not confusion, and must be able to act in the best interests of the child without fear of fulfilling their duties could expose them to legal risk.

We currently do not have. We currently have a lack of clarity in this area regarding consent in the new puberty blockers trial, so this is already an unclear area. Puberty blockers themselves in reality, are a form of conversion therapy. How will they be separated from this process? Can the women can the Minister point out any abusive conversion practices that she has directly identified that are not already criminal offences, and spell out directly the current problem she is directly seeking to fix and clarify and be specific on what is the current legal gap and what she sees are the true gaps in the law and what is currently legal.

Now, can the Minister also guarantee that a young person who is simply same sex attracted will not be encouraged to go down a pathway to actively lead them away from their sexuality and being the gay person they are, and they need to be helped to be happy and comfortable with. These questions go to the heart of the bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, again, we have seen well-meaning legislation, hate crime offences, having a chilling effect on free speech on this side of the House.

We believe in pragmatic, evidence based policy making. We believe in strong safeguards, and in conclusion, we firmly stand against abuse and coercion. We must ensure that this Labour government is seeking to prevent harm and does not create any new harm.
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Lisa Smart Portrait Lisa Smart MP (Hazel Grove, Liberal Democrat)
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Minister. >> Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker and I, I understand that the Shadow Minister did not have my statement in enough time, have my statement in enough time, but I am disappointed with the way that she has massively broadened and misrepresented the scope of what's actually in the scope of this legislation in her comments this afternoon. And I would just emphasise that I would encourage people to look at the detail of the bill and the very specific thresholds that we have established, because it is beholden on all of us to make sure this conversation is one based in real facts.

I am also disappointed that the Conservative Party, a party who I gave credit to for their commitment on equalities issues in the past, has found itself in the position now where, having promised for years that it supports a ban on conversion practices, it now sounds as though it does not, and it is a grave shame. It is a grave shame, Madam Deputy Speaker. She asks me some good questions and I will attempt to answer them today. She asks, first of all, is this not already illegal? And my answer to that is no.

There are two reasons for this. There are gaps in existing law that mean we cannot prosecute offences properly. So if you think, for example, about domestic abuse legislation or coercive control legislation designed for somebody who has a relationship with an intimate partner and would not capture an offence for somebody that they did not know. And there are lots of examples like that where there are gaps in the law. Also, it's really important that we have a definition of conversion practice in law because like with other offences like upskirting or non-fatal strangulation, a definition is really important to help victims understand what's happened to them, to be able to come forward and for prosecutors to be able to build a case.

So I am confident that there is a need to legislate in this area. She asks about the evidence base for the practice of conversion practices, I assume, and I've just come from an event this morning and a report published by Gallup. I have it here today with hundreds of case studies of people that they have spoken to on their helpline services in the last few years, appalling abuse that is happening right now in this country. And the examples I use in my speech earlier on today from those examples, people being threatened with rape and assault, people being beaten because of their identity and an attempt to change them.

So the evidence is very clearly there. And I would just say to the hon. Lady, one case of abuse is too many. I would also say categorically to the hon. Lady that in the cases that she mentions, which steered widely clear of the actual remit of this legislation before us today, in the case of a mother helping a child that is categorically not captured in this
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Olivia Bailey Portrait Olivia Bailey MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Reading West and Mid Berkshire, Labour)
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bill, in the case of an exploratory therapist helping somebody understand their identity and take time and asking supportive time and asking supportive questions, that is categorically not included in this bill. There's a healthcare exemption on the face a healthcare exemption on the face of the bill to ensure that we do not have a chilling effect on healthcare professionals providing healthcare professionals providing this vital, vital service to young people and indeed any person. There are legitimate questions and I am answering them today.

She asks me about the scrutiny process. It will be a joint committee of both houses, and I really look forward, and I genuinely mean I want to have cross-party and good conversation about this legislation, and I hope that her party engages in that in good spirits, in the way that I intend to engage in that process. She asks me about the principle of informed consent, and we're talking about a criminal threshold for an abusive practice, a criminal threshold which is in line with other forms of criminal abuse.

So domestic abuse, for example. And, Madam Deputy Speaker, I don't think you can consent to abuse, and that is a fundamental principle that I think it is right that moves forward in this legislation. She asks other questions about the interaction of this law when it becomes a law about how that interacts with other safeguarding requirements or guidance in schools. These are all very important questions and ones that we will, of course, address in detail as we get to the point where we have a piece of legislation on the statute book.

I do welcome her engagement, but I would just remind her that she says that she stands against abuse. I would urge her and her party to think again. This is a bill which fills a gap in the law to stop the most abhorrent and pernicious abuse faced by LGBT people in our country, mind.

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Hey. Dan Nia Griffith. Deputy Speaker well, I warmly

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Deputy Speaker well, I warmly congratulate the Minister on publishing this bill today, and I very much welcome this fully trans very much welcome this fully trans inclusive bill to ban abhorrent conversion practices. Now, whilst conversion practices. Now, whilst the bill will enable the punishment of those who carry out these abusive practices, the real value abusive practices, the real value of the Bill will be as a deterrent to stop anybody being subject to these practices in the first place. So what plans does the Minister have to develop a real understanding of this bill, particularly amongst the communities where these practices are now prevalent?

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I thank my hon. Friend for her question, and if I may, I would also like to thank her for everything that she did when she everything that she did when she held my role to get us to the position today that we are now, where we're able to publish this where we're able to publish this draft legislation. She did a great service in her role and I'm very grateful to her for it. She is she grateful to her for it. She is she is right that the value of this bill is actually quite a simple statement of intent and principle statement of intent and principle to the LGBT community, which is that there's nothing wrong with who you are, that it's not OK for somebody to forcibly try and change you, to abuse you, to harm you.

And I think that's a really important message that this place sends out to the country and to people who are in these terrible situations

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feeling fear and shame. So I thank her again for her contribution. Thank you. Liberal Democrat spokesperson Jess Brown-Fuller.

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Jess Brown-Fuller. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We in the Liberal Democrats welcome the draft bill laid before the the draft bill laid before the House today, because conversion therapy is not a thing of the past. 1 in 6 LGBTQ plus young people today have been offered it in an attempt to cure them. And the Minister referred to the Gallup Minister referred to the Gallup report, which is a really important piece of reading that I would recommend all members across the House take the time to look at those harrowing testimonies.

It has always been a form of abuse, and far too often carried out by those in positions of trust, whether it's family members, religious leaders, medical professionals who have been conducting this archaic practice. It is offensive and dangerous to suggest that sexual orientation or gender identity is a problem to be treated or cured. As far back as 2018, Baroness May, the former Prime Minister, promised to end these abhorrent practices which can cause mental and physical harm. This position was also adopted by the Labour government, who promised legislation to address it in the first king's speech.

Since those initial promises were made, individuals from LGBTQ plus
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Danny Beales Portrait Danny Beales MP (Uxbridge and South Ruislip, Labour)
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communities have continued to face abuse and discrimination under the guise that they can be cured for years. We should all celebrate finally seeing this legislation that ends this horrendous practice, protecting vulnerable individuals protecting vulnerable individuals and allowing people to live freely as themselves. On these benches. We are ready to scrutinise the draft are ready to scrutinise the draft to make sure that it is comprehensive and inclusive and work cross party on this issue to work cross party on this issue to ensure that legislation can be put into law as soon as possible.

We would ask the Minister today to lay out a timeline for this legislation, especially given current uncertainty surrounding the administration, and ask what engagement the Minister is having, specifically with representatives of the LGBTQ plus community so they can ensure that the legislation is shaped with them, not for them. And does she agree with me that France, Canada, New Zealand, Norway, many other countries have already passed legislation to ban this practice. The UK has fallen significantly down the inclusivity league tables, and today marks an important step in reversing that decline and establishing the UK as a world

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leader in being a safe society for all to live in. Yes. Minister.

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Minister. I thank the hon. Lady very much for her, for her, her statement and her questions. And I'm grateful for her questions. And I'm grateful for her party's support for the principle of this legislation, and look forward to engaging with you further as we go through the process of scrutiny. And she asks me a few questions on the timeline for the legislation. We will set up a joint committee of both houses as soon as possible, that that process tends to take around 12 sitting weeks, I think is the average.

And obviously that committee, once it is established, will be able to set out more details. We will then press on as fast as we can to make sure that we can get this bill onto the statute book through the legislative process. And, you know, I am also would like to emphasise the hon. Lady that this is a manifesto commitment for this government, and it's a commitment which we will continue to adhere to on representations and engagement with the LGBTQ plus community.

I've had many wonderful conversations with them already as I've gone about designing this legislation and will continue to do so. And I had an event earlier this morning, the ability to thank those organisations for the work that they have done over many years to campaign for this ban, and in particular, to thank those who have come forward with their own stories of the appalling abuse that they suffered, and to thank them for showing having the courage and the bravery to share their stories so that so that others may not have to experience the same fate.

She mentions legislation in other countries, and I think there is now 28 conversion practice bans around the globe, and we have been able to learn from the wonderful experience, the wonderful experiences those countries have had and the approaches that they have taken in the development of our legislation today, which has been very useful. And she also points to the league tables. And I would say to her, we are hosting the Idaho Plus Forum in London next year, which I am very excited about.

And of course, I

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hope and expect that we will climb back up those tables. Tonia Antoniazzi. Thank you.

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Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker and I'd like to take the time to thank the Minister for talking to me in Minister for talking to me in advance of this statement and the publishing of the bill. Just one quick question, Madam Deputy Speaker. I just wanted to know, on Speaker. I just wanted to know, on reading the bill, if the symmetry in the bill allows Detransitioners to bring retrospective cases to bring retrospective cases against therapists and professionals who transitioned them using that affirmative approach,

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which was in use at Gids and is still prevalent in many settings today. Minister.

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Minister. I thank my friend for her question and for her conversations question and for her conversations with me on this important topic. So let me just be clear what the bill does. The bill is symmetrical in in does. The bill is symmetrical in in its approach, in that it is going to be an abuse. The legislation is that you cannot have an abusive conversion practice to attempt to conversion practice to attempt to change somebody from one gender identity to another, or from one sexual orientation to another.

I've also been clear that the criminal threshold in the bill is three things. First of all, you must have an intent to change somebody. Second of all, it must be an abusive practice. That's in line with other legislation, including the Domestic Abuse Act. And third, a third that that must have caused significant harm, and that is the test that will be used by the courts when determining if prosecution should be brought.

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Rebecca Paul thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. I thank the Minister for her statement, and I think one of the statement, and I think one of the things that I'm concerned about, which is touched on, is the impact on families, and I think I'm on families, and I think I'm worried that there is scope for positive, healthy interactions within a family to potentially fall within a family to potentially fall into this bill. It's good to hear from the Minister that she thinks the bill won't do that.

However, the bill won't do that. However, when I look at the bill, I feel like it's quite broadly written, and I'm sure we will have further conversations about that. But I do have one specific question for you on this. So if a child wants to transition and wants to participate in the pathways clinical trial, and if their parents don't consent, will that be an abusive conversion

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practice under this bill? So I am clear that this bill

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So I am clear that this bill will not impact the ability for families to or parents to parent how they wish. And I think that the how they wish. And I think that the abuse threshold that I have set out several times now this afternoon is really clear on that fact, and I really clear on that fact, and I will just repeat it one more time. There has to be an intent to change. There has to be abuse. And the There has to be abuse.

And the abuse that we have defined in this legislation mirrors the abuse in the Domestic Abuse Act. And thirdly, there has to be serious harm. And it is not the case that there are exemptions for parents in any other form of abuse that takes place in in a family relationship, and I don't think it's appropriate if abuse is taking place, for that exemption to be in place, to be in

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place here. David Burton-Sampson Madam Deputy Speaker. And I congratulate my hon. Friend for bringing forward this Friend for bringing forward this draft bill and for all her work she's put into it. Growing up as a she's put into it. Growing up as a gay person in the early 90s, I know what it's like to feel like you are not normal and don't belong. There not normal and don't belong. There are some particularly reform UK who aren't in their place and seemingly by the words of the shadow Minister by the words of the shadow Minister today, the Tories, who would take us back to section the days of section 28.

So does she agree with me that alongside this draft bill that prevents the evil practice of conversion therapy, we too must also protect the freedoms of the LGBTQ plus community to be the authentic selves in our society.
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Olivia Bailey Portrait Olivia Bailey MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Reading West and Mid Berkshire, Labour)
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Yes. Mr. to campaign for those freedoms. I would say to him, I reflect myself when considering this legislation on the impact of experiences that I have had growing up as a young lesbian, and the impact that that shame has on me, and I cannot even begin to comprehend how that feels. If you've been subject to this kind of abuse. And I think that's one of the really important reasons that we must act to, to prevent it. I would also say to him that absolutely, this Labour government is committed to defending and extending the rights of LGBT people everywhere.

I'm proud that we've equalised the hate crime laws, and

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I'm really proud that we've put in this draft bill before the House today. Christine Jardine thank. You very much, Madam Deputy

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You very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I also congratulate the Minister on this bill, which has been a long time coming? As has been a long time coming? As someone who sat here in 2018 and heard the then Prime Minister, Theresa May, promise that there Theresa May, promise that there would be a conversion ban, it seems would be a conversion ban, it seems that that promise has was almost impossible for the Conservative Party to live up to. And finally, at last, we have it coming from a Labour government.

The timing, I think, is important and reflected in what she said about sending a clear message to the LGBTQ plus community that they will be respected and protected. But I think it also sends a message, and I wonder if you would agree with this, to those in this place and beyond who seem determined not to protect the rights of the LGBTQ plus community and make it absolutely clear that Parliament will do everything it can to ensure that they are free to live the lives that they want as the people that they are.



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Minister. I thank you very much for her question and for her support for question and for her support for this draft bill, and I look forward to engaging with her further on it. I do think it's absolutely vital I do think it's absolutely vital that we continue to defend and protect LGBT rights in our country, and, of course, around the world, where we have a proud role to play, too. And that is something which I am committed to doing, and this government is committed to doing with our equalisation of the hate crime laws.

And with this draft,

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Bill. Alex Barros-Curtis thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I want to congratulate all campaigners who brought us to this moment, including my hon. Friends for Llanelli and the Minister who has Llanelli and the Minister who has really spearheaded this in the few months she's been in the job and she should be really proud of what she's achieved with this, because I she's achieved with this, because I have spoken to her about it extensively. And, you know, the community of victims have, as has been said, been waiting eight years been said, been waiting eight years for this since it was first promised by a conservative government, because people don't need fixing.

They're not broken. Abuse is not and should never be permissible. And so abusive conversion practices should be outlawed. And it really shouldn't be a controversial topic. So will she tell me about the work that she is going to be doing on this with devolved administrations? Because whilst of course this is England and Wales, we need to be looking at Scotland and Northern Ireland and what best practice they can do in order to ensure that there are no victims here, because, as she said, consent to abuse is not a thing, should never be a thing.

And we should get this law on the statute

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books as quickly as possible. Minister. I thank my hon. Friend for his question and for his support and engagement on this important topic. He is, of course, right that abuse is never acceptable wherever we find it. And this is a really find it. And this is a really important piece of legislation to make that completely clear. And to be clear, LGBT people at the moment be clear, LGBT people at the moment are subject to that abuse because we have not legislated in this area and legislate, we must, I would say, and legislate, we must, I would say, on his question about devolved administrations, we are now going into the process of Pre-legislative scrutiny, and I hope very much that conversations with the devolved administrations will be very productive in that period, and we look forward to working with whoever wants to work with us to make this legislation a reality.



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Lisa Smart Madam Deputy Speaker. I really welcome the Minister's statement today and the introduction of this draft legislation. I really look forward legislation. I really look forward to writing to my constituents who've been in touch with me to express their disappointment that conversion practices are still conversion practices are still legal. I particularly mention Isobel from Offerton, who is the most recent constituent to write to me about this. I wonder if the me about this. I wonder if the Minister could say a little bit more.

She mentioned the carve out for health professionals in her opening remarks, and how she sees mitigating the risk that somebody under the guise of being a health professional might set up a a mental health charity in an attempt to circumvent the aims of this bill. Yes.
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James Asser Portrait James Asser MP (West Ham and Beckton, Labour)
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Minister. is a really important question, and let me explain how it will work. So it is my view that legitimate health care would not fall under health care would not fall under the remit of this bill in any way, shape or form, because legitimate healthcare would never be abusing somebody to try and change their their identity and causing them serious harm. However, I do recognise the concerns that I have heard about the risk of a chilling effect. We don't want that because therapy and good therapy and good conversation is really important.

That's why we've put this exemption on the face of the bill. But I'm also clear that if somebody falls below the standards that would be expected of them in a health care profession, they will fall within this bill. So that would prevent the example which she outlines, where somebody is pretending to be a healthcare professional in order to do an abusive conversion practice. So I am confident that there is no loophole here, but it is just a clear statement that healthcare professionals can continue to do their important work.



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Danny Beales thank you. Deputy Speaker. Today has been a long time coming. I'd like to thank the Minister for her hard, relentless and committed work in delivering this comprehensive and inclusive draft bill today, which inclusive draft bill today, which we were promised in 2018. It's been in for King and Queen's speeches, in for King and Queen's speeches, and the LGBT community will rightly welcome today's statement. It's unfortunate that the official unfortunate that the official opposition has not, and it's a reminder, as an LGBT person myself, how much there is fear in the community now about the change of discourse in this country, about LGBT rights fuelled by the far right, by international, Christian and other organisations in America, funding organisations here in the UK, and we've seen the official opposition abandon their support, potentially for this Bill and the unofficial opposition reform, championing hatred and pushing against equality for LGBT people.

So I and others in the community are afraid, which is why today is important, because the government is making a clear and definitive statement about conversion practices. Does the Minister agree with me that these conversion practices are abuse, plain and simple. And will she also assure me that as the bill is in draft, there will be time to discuss the issue mentioned previously in committee? The definition of medical professionals. So this can be tightly defined and we can ensure that there is no back door get out.

For those who would seek to continue these abusive practices.
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Minister. his last question, just first of all, yes, there will absolutely be time, and this is one of the many merits of the pre-legislative scrutiny process that we can work scrutiny process that we can work through those issues together. Of course, the question of the definition of healthcare workers is, is a matter for the Department for Health and Social Care, who I know will work closely with us through that process as well. I do also agree with him that it is abuse, plain and simple.

And that is why we're legislating to stop it. And I agree with him about the toxicity and hostility towards the LGBT community in our current debate. I also reflect on the fact that one hon. Member from reform has written, essentially calling for a return to section 28 in our schools. I note that reform have defunded pride events across our country. I know that reform have said we shouldn't be advertising pride events. And, Madam Deputy Speaker, we must stand up to that divisive politics, hateful politics with as firmly as

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we can. James Asser. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First, I thank my hon. Friend

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First, I thank my hon. Friend for I know all the hard work and conscientious effort she's put into to getting us to this point. This isn't just a government promise. isn't just a government promise. This is a long standing request by the LGBT community, and it is a significant gap in our 30 year significant gap in our 30 year journey to legislative equality. And that journey has been And that journey has been underpinned by a need to prove that we are not people to be pitied or treated or cured or, dare I say, reformed, but people to be respected.

This legislation will do that. But my hon. Friend is wise and experienced, and she will know there will be pushback. There will be the same old tropes and the same old bigotry, dressed up as plausible excuses and sympathetic concerns. Does she agree with me that a key to fighting that is to put the voices and experience of those who have been abused in this way, front and centre. People like my friend who had to flee his house, his family and his city to avoid being forcibly treated and cured of being gay.

And does she agree that it's not just a case of the need to be protected from that abuse, but their voices and their experiences should also now be heard?
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Tom Hayes Portrait Tom Hayes MP (Bournemouth East, Labour)
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Tom Hayes Mr. Speaker, with your grace and with the consent of my constituents, I want to put two constituents, I want to put two people on the official parliamentary record today. Mitch says conversion therapy taught me says conversion therapy taught me to be ashamed of being non-binary and gay, and taught me how to pretend to be someone I'm not by changing my outward appearance and body language and suppressing my real thoughts and feelings. It made me miserable. It made me waste years of my life pretending to be someone I'm not.

But it never truly changed me. Because it can't. It doesn't have that power. The promise of conversion therapy is a harmful lie. And for Rosie, three of her friends suffered from conversion therapy, one by electric shock aversion therapy and two through church based prayer ministry. The one who underwent electric shock aversion therapy went blind and has since died. Another, who underwent prayer ministry eventually took her own life. And there's also Johnny, who, like the two other constituents I mentioned, fully backs a ban on conversion practices.

I could no more be straight than a trans kid could make themselves cisgender. The alternative is to stay in the closet, to feel shame wash over you, a shame that leads to anxiety, depression, and sometimes suicide. Our sexual orientation or gender identity is not chosen by us. But being gay or trans, living gay and trans lives very much as a choice. Because being gay or trans is about choosing yourself. I'm glad that this is a government, a Labour government, which has the backs of my Lgbt+ constituents as they choose to live as they wish, to live lives that are full and happy.

And in response to my constituent Vanessa, who had concerns raised unfairly by opposition parties that this bill would not be trans inclusive. Can the Minister please confirm that this bill will be fully trans inclusive?
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Tim Roca Portrait Tim Roca MP (Macclesfield, Labour)
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Tim Roca thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I congratulate the Speaker. Can I congratulate the Minister for all her hard work on bringing this bill forward? She should be incredibly proud of herself. It's particularly timely herself. It's particularly timely in the month of pride in 2026. We still have people who are questioning the need for pride, including reform councils and reform councillors, and it's an important reminder that despite the progress we've made, there's still a lot further to go. Now, this bill has been in four speeches from the throne since 2018, as colleagues have said, and successive conservative prime Ministers have promised it and not delivered, I should say, on the shadow Ministers contribution, earlier questions are fine, but the tone of it will have disappointed a great many people who will now consider that the Conservative Party are, in effect, fair weather friends when it comes to fighting for equality.

And can I

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ask the. Minister whether she'll join me in recognising the fact that it's a Labour government that is finally

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Labour government that is finally bringing this forward and that will get it on the statute book? Yes.

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Yes. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend for all of his work in this important issue. And, work in this important issue. And, you know, I, I reflect often about the difference that a Labour government made to my life and the
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Debbie Abrahams Portrait Debbie Abrahams MP (Oldham East and Saddleworth, Labour)
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examined workplace issues impacting on disabled people and those with long term health conditions who are long term health conditions who are now refer to as disabled people. This includes challenges finding employment and staying in work. Today's report looks at the government's Connect to Work Programme and Employment Support Programme, aiming to help reduce health and disability related economic inactivity. One of our labour markets most persistent and challenging issues is the disability employment gap, with nearly 1 in 4 of the working age population disabled, equivalent to 10.4 million disabled people.

It is quite staggering that only 5.5 million disabled people are employed. When we know millions more want a job that's a disability. Employment rate of 52.8%, 0.8 percent, compared to 82.5% for non-disabled people and disability employment gap of nearly 30%. After historical falls, the gap has remained around 30% since 2012, and it remains above the OECD average. Disabled people and people living in disabled households are far more likely to live in poverty than any other group. The extra cost disabled people face and lack of employment opportunities are key factors as most disabilities are required.

Many disabled people have been employed before becoming inactive and unemployed. Their skills and experience are being wasted. A lost opportunity for the individuals, their families and indeed the country. Last year, the committee commissioned an economic analysis of the potential savings in DWP spending and returns to the Exchequer in programmes like Connect to Work and how these could make that difference. This was modelled from previous successful employment support programmes. The economist estimated that if 5% of currently unemployed or inactive people, including disabled people, moved into employment, that would generate £20 billion over the life of the parliament.

But the committee's inquiry on employment support for disabled people showed there are multiple barriers to work. Features of the workplace itself, issues preventing people from finding, getting into work and things, making it difficult to remain in work rather than attempting to cover all these issues in a single report, we we felt it would be much more helpful to produce a report on each aspect. We also hope to report on access to work once the government has published its proposals for reforming the scheme, which we hope will be very soon.

Our Disability at Work report highlighted the structural and cultural factors of workplaces continuing to limit opportunity. We found barriers facing disabled people in workplaces are present across all stages and aspects of employment, from recruitment, workplace adjustments, employer attitudes and opportunities for progression. The report I present today complements this by focusing on support people need before entering work or when they need to get their, or when they need help to get their. Our message is clear closing the disability employment gap requires a joined up system, not isolated programmes.

Let me begin by recognising the significance of Connect to Work, a major evidence based programme with real potential, launched in October 2024, it is intended to support up to 300 000 principally disabled people into sustained paid employment over five years. It is part of the government's broader welfare reform strategy to reduce health related economic inactivity. A strategy is both that is both economically important and, more importantly, central to improving lives. The committee is clear we welcome connectors to connect to work.

The programme is voluntary, grounded and well established, supported employment models and combines national scale with local flexibility, offering scope for more tailored and responsive support models such as individual placement and support. And the Supported Employment Quality Framework demonstrates strong outcomes and sustained employment, as well as confidence, skills and wellbeing. These approaches are personalised, integrated with services focussed on real jobs and providing ongoing support. Connect to work adopts these principles. That is one of its greatest strengths. The programme is well designed, but success depends on delivering.

A key feature is its dissolved delivery model. Local authorities have flexibility to design provision based on local needs, but with that flexibility comes risk. For example, around consistency of delivery, workforce capacity, integration with health skills and local services, funding certainty and managing transition between programmes. We heard different commissioning approaches could lead to variation in service quality and uneven experiences for participants. The government needs to find a balance between the flexibility and consistency. The committee's central conclusion is that connector works strength will matter only if they translate it into consistent, integrated and properly resourced support on the ground.

To date, delivery has not been without a difficulty. We heard that early implementation has been more complex and more burdensome than expected. The department itself acknowledge aspects of the early process were clunky and unsatisfactory. Local authorities told us delivery plan processes were lengthy, administratively demanding and guidance was at times unclear or inconsistent. And finally, engagement from the department did seem to vary across different areas. Programmes of this scale depend not only on policy design but on systems, processes and relationships.

Early friction risks undermining confidence and delaying impact. In addition, over 1 billion of employment support funding devolved to local authorities from from the Connect to Work and for other employment support programmes, this year needs to be clearly defined and monitoring of outputs and outcomes. We welcome the steps that the Department has taken to address this, and the Committee will return to this issue to assess progress. Successful delivery needs, skilled practitioners and specialist expertise. Some local authorities were confident they had necessary capacity, but we also had difficulties recruiting staff with the necessary skills, loss of expertise during delayed commissioning and a wider shortage across the sector.

Without the right people to deliver them, even the best design programmes won't succeed. We therefore call on the government to set out clearly how it will ensure sufficient capacity, coordinate workforce development and address gaps. Perhaps the most significant part of this is is about integration. Connect to work sits alongside other national initiatives such as Workwell. Its success depends on services delivered by numerous providers, like those like those to do with health and skills integration, particularly the NHS, is essential.

Where systems are joined up, outcomes improve with their fragmented people fall through the gaps, effective triage, clear pathways and strong local partnerships are therefore critical. This is not simply about programme delivery, it's about coherent network of support. We recognise the significant investment the government is, is is making, but identify concerns about rigidities and financial management across financial years and uncertainty beyond the current spending period. For a programme of this scale, long term certainty is essential. Local authorities can invest in staff and infrastructure needed to support delivery.

That confidence needs to extend beyond the the end of the current spending period. We therefore call on the government to provide a clear statement of intent on the programme's future. We also heard concerns about gaps in provision during the transition from work and health programme pioneer to connect to work in some areas. This left individuals with limited support at a critical time. While the government has acknowledged these gaps were not persuaded, their full impact is adequately assessed. This point. This points to a broader issue the need for better system wide planning and programmes change.

As noted at the outset, this report is part of a wider programme of work. Alongside this and our Disability at Work report, we have identified access to work as a crucial piece of the puzzle. It plays a vital role in supporting people once they enter employment, enabling necessary adjustments and support in the workplace. We therefore intend to examine him more in more depth once the government has set out its proposals for reform. Before I finish, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to thank the committee team, particularly Paulina Eaton and Paul Owen and everyone who provided written and oral evidence to us and in attending engagement sessions with us.

I believe our report sets out a balanced assessment of Connect to Work. It should help disabled people to have a genuine access to meaningful, sustainable employment on equal terms, but its success is not guaranteed. That depends on effective and consistent delivery. A skilled and supportive workforce delivering the programme, integration across services and sustained government commitment. The policy is sound. The test now is whether the strong foundations that the government has established translate into consistent, high quality support. In practice, it requires programmes and systems that work together to close the disability employment gap.

I

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commend this report to the House. Further contributions. So I'll move. On to.

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On to. The rest of the business for the day. If the House is ready. Right. We now come to the backbench

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We now come to the backbench debate on. Windrush Day 2026. And I call Helen Hayes, who will speak for.

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speak for. Up to 15 minutes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to the Backbench I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for allocating time for this debate. Windrush Day
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Helen Hayes Portrait Helen Hayes MP (Dulwich and West Norwood, Labour)
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HMT Empire Windrush at Tilbury Docks. The Windrush has become a symbol of a period in our history that saw many people come to the UK from the countries of the Commonwealth. I am grateful to Arthur Torrington, co-founder of Arthur Torrington, co-founder of the Windrush Foundation, with his dear friend, the late Samuel Beaver dear friend, the late Samuel Beaver King, for his work to document the history of the Windrush. Later this week, everyone will be able to read Arthur's new book, Windrush Windrush Myths and Misconceptions, and I highly recommend it.

The Windrush began its voyage in Port of Spain, Trinidad on the 20th of May 1948, and made a number of stops in the Caribbean, including at Kingston in Jamaica. We do not know everything about the passengers on the Windrush, in part because the ship's manifest only records limited information and in part because there are a number of service personnel on board who, for security reasons, were not recorded in the manifest. We know that there were at least 1067 passengers on board, probably considerably more.

The Commonwealth passengers on the Windrush travelled straightforwardly on British passports, knowing they had the right to come to the UK, the place they called the Mother Country. The passengers were a diverse group with differing levels of income, different reasons for travelling and a range of different skills and occupations. Among them were 66 Polish refugees. Not all of the passengers were coming to look for work. Some were visiting the UK as tourists, at least one to watch. A relative who was competing in the 1948 London Olympics.

Upon their arrival, around 230 of the passengers were provided with temporary accommodation in the Clapham Common deep shelter, from where some of them came to Brixton and found work and accommodation. And this gives my constituency a very proud and direct relationship with the with with the Windrush recognised in the naming of Windrush Square in the heart of Brixton. One of the passengers was Sam King, an RAF airman who had served during the Second World War. He returned to the UK on the Windrush and regarded the voyage as historic.

He made great efforts to ensure that it would not be forgotten, keeping in touch with his fellow passengers, and from 1968 bringing them together to commemorate anniversaries, Sam Cane became known as Mr. Windrush and started the tradition of Windrush Day, long before it became a national day recognised by the government. In 2018, Sam King achieved many things in his life, including working with Claudia Jones to found the Notting Hill Carnival. We are immensely proud in my constituency that he became the first black mayor of Southwark, the HMT Empire Windrush entered our narrative as a symbol for a whole cohort of people who came from the Commonwealth to live in the UK.

From approximately 1948 to 1971 that became known as the Windrush generation. And Madam Deputy Speaker, we have a debt of gratitude to them. They came here to contribute, founding businesses, working in our NHS and transport systems, helping to rebuild our country from the ruins of the Second World War. They enriched our culture and national life through food, music and faith communities, and they helped to forge the identity of modern Britain. Members may have seen the Windrush Untold Stories exhibition, which has been installed in the portcullis House atrium for the whole of June.

The exhibition features beautiful portraits of 18 individuals who are all either members of the Windrush generation or their descendants. They include the Reverend Michael King, son of Sam King, the late Clovis salmon wheel maker and documentary maker who lived in my constituency, and Dawn Hill CBE, one of the founders of the Black Cultural Archives. Each portrait has a QR code through which you can listen to the subject telling their story. I'd encourage anyone who has not yet done this to listen to the stories.

They are moving, humbling and inspiring. They capture perfectly the courage and grit, determination and passion of the Windrush generation, alongside some of the pain they have endured. I want to pay tribute to Roz Griffiths, who initiated the Windrush Untold Stories exhibition. Amit Lennon, who took the photographs, and the Empathy Museum, who gathered the stories and produced the exhibition. And I look forward to celebrating Windrush day with Roz on Windrush Square in my constituency at the Big Caribbean. Lunch this weekend.

Hear. Our celebration of the Windrush generation, however, is not a sentimental thing, for despite their commitment and contribution, they faced terrible racism, hostility and hardship from the signs in the windows of rental properties that read no blacks, no dogs, no Irish to the workplace, racism and eventually the Home Office scandal which broke in 2018. The Windrush scandal saw the citizenship of those who had come here on British passports, whether before the British Nationality Act of 1948 or after it being denied their citizenship, often with utterly devastating consequences.

Eight years on from the scandal coming to national attention in the media, there is still work to be done to secure justice for its victims. I want to pay tribute to the work of the former Minister for migration. My hon. Friend the Member for Heston and Feltham for the work she did to rebuild trust with many of the victims of the Windrush scandal, reforming the compensation scheme, resourcing the Windrush unit in the Home Office, resulting in an event that many would never have thought possible in the holding of a Windrush conference in the Home Office itself, attended by many elders of the Windrush generation and many victims of the scandal.

But there is still considerable work to do. Research by justice with the University of Sussex has found that claimants to the compensation scheme received an average offer of £11,400 when they applied for compensation by themselves, but an average of £83,300 for the same cases. Once they had legal representation. Such disparity is completely unacceptable and it must be addressed. There are still victims who do not trust the Home Office to administer the scheme, and who have not come forward to apply for compensation to which they are entitled.

There are still individual cases, at least one that I have been made aware of in detail, in which individuals are being denied their status based on an inaccurate understanding of history. We should not mark this year's Windrush day. Also, Madam Deputy Speaker, without reflecting on the fact that there are political parties in our country now who are seeking to rewrite the definition of Britishness as based on ancestry alone, trying to create a false and completely unacceptable distinction between native Brits and non-Native citizens focussed implicitly on whiteness.

This is a divisive, abhorrent and most importantly, completely inaccurate articulation of Britishness, and we must reject it with all our strength. The stoking of racist hatred and division has resulted in recent weeks in long term residents of Belfast being hounded, hounded out of their homes based on the colour of their skin. In a sickening echo of the no blacks, no dogs, no Irish signs that greeted many of the Windrush generation. It is making many black and brown Britons feel anxious and fearful in their own communities.

It is shameful and it is wrong. We do not have different categories of British citizen. We just have citizens of many different backgrounds all together. Us. We. One United Kingdom with more in common than the things that divide us. People come to citizenship through a range of different routes, some by birth, some by naturalisation. We are diverse, but we are all equal in our status. Our task as citizens is to live well together in our communities with respect to each other, to contribute to our society in the ways that we are able, and to build places in which all of our children and grandchildren can thrive.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to pay tribute to all those who work to preserve the history of the Windrush generation, to educate people about it and to campaign for justice. I want to mention in particular, Arthur Torrington and the Windrush Foundation, Bishop Desmond Jaddoo and the Windrush National Organisation Garrett Craig and Justice for the Windrush generations. Sir Patrick Vernon, who I was delighted to see knighted in the King's Birthday Honours this month. Roz Griffiths, The Windrush Justice Clinic.

Black cultural archives in my constituency. And doctor Les Johnson and Denise Lydiate at the Windrush Museum. And finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to make a number of asks of the Minister who is responding today. Will she take seriously the need for support for victims of the Windrush scandal, seeking to apply to the compensation scheme and work with the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice to ensure that they have access to funded legal support? Will she work with the Home Office to commission an independent review of the compensation scheme, in light of concerns that it is not on an equal footing with other compensation schemes, such as the Infected Blood Scheme and the Post Office Horizon Scandal Compensation Scheme, and seek to address any disparities.

Will she raise with the Home Office the calls for the scheme to be made fully independent from the department that was responsible for the scandal? Will she start work now to plan for the 80th anniversary of the arrival of HMT Empire Windrush in 2028, and seek to ensure that commemorative and celebratory events like the big Caribbean lunch can take place across the country. And will she consider calls to deepen our celebrations through suggestions such as Windrush month or a national Windrush motion to embed Windrush history further within our civic life? Will she look to provide support for recording and preserving the oral histories of members of the Windrush generation in the way that has been done for the Windrush Untold Stories exhibition? These stories are powerful and they have an important role to play in educating people about our shared history.

And as part of this work, will she support the campaign by Sir Patrick Vernon and others to raise the anchor of the HMT Empire Windrush from the Mediterranean Sea bed, so that this important symbol of resilience and hope can be restored and used as an opportunity to tell this story. And finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, in light of the abhorrent narratives on immigration currently gaining currency in our politics, will she commit to do everything possible to ensure that the government's policies always reflect and celebrate our rich and complex identity as an island nation, to which people from all over the world have always come to make their home, including in relation to upcoming legislation on immigration.

The story of the Windrush generation is remarkable in so many ways. Most importantly, however, it is part of the story of us, an integral and interwoven part of the history of our country and our identity as a nation, and we must never forget it.

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The question is, as. On the Order Paper, and I now call Dawn Order Paper, and I now call Dawn Butler. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Not used to be calling so Speaker. Not used to be calling so early. It's an absolute and wonderful pleasure to follow my hon. Friend from Dulwich and West hon. Friend from Dulwich and West Norwood and her beautiful tribute to the Windrush generation and her
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Dawn Butler Portrait Dawn Butler MP (Brent East, Labour)
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to the Windrush generation and her constituents, and I know how much they appreciate and the fact that you will always call for this debate in Parliament every single year. And I also concur with the exhibition in portcullis House. It really is a beautiful exhibition. However, I do slightly probably disagree on the the anchor, the I mean, I, I've had this conversation with Sir Patrick Vernon now in regards to. I would rather the money be spent on a learning centre and an educational trust.

I feel that that would be a more worthwhile spend of money. But my mum and dad came here on a British passport and they would be considered part of the Windrush generation, and they're extremely proud of coming on their British passport. And actually they were taught English in school way better than how we were taught English in school, and we often would get into trouble for how we spoke because we were not speaking the Queen's English. And, and I remember asking my father one day in the garden, and I asked him to sing the national anthem, and he started singing God Save the Gracious Queen.

And I wanted to sing the Jamaican national anthem because I wanted to learn it. And so there is this deep history there. And as my hon. Friend said in her moving speech, that some politicians are trying to divide us on, whereas there's so much that actually unites us. And and the Windrush scandal, Madam Deputy Speaker, has been such a painful time. The first time I'd heard of it was when and I will call him Winston came to see me in my surgery, and he had told me that he'd been working for 40 years in the council, and he was looking forward to his retirement.

And when it was time to take his retirement, they told him that they could not give him his pension because of the Windrush scandal, and he wasn't legally here, and therefore he will have no access to his pension. And I was absolutely stunned by that. And I thought, you know, sometimes constituents don't tell us the full story. And I think, oh, maybe there's more to this story. But on further investigation, it was just a complete injustice. And Winston was embarrassed and ashamed.

And I would say to him that he it was not his embarrassment or shame to carry, because this was something that was done to him by the British government. And but there's a there's a lack of understanding about the pride that this generation brings with them, how they how they carry themselves, as I said, how they speak, how they dress, even when you carry things in a plastic bag, that's a no no in the in the Jamaican community, if it's see through, they call it a scandal bag.

And so that is embarrassing because nobody should see what you have in your bag. And so there's a lot of pride. And this is why something like this caused such embarrassment and shame. And I asked Jackie Mackenzie, who's the head of immigration, asylum and Windrush cases at Lei Day, in regards to the cases that she's currently dealing with and what the issues are. And she said that first is the delay. The delay is excessive. Some people waiting 44 years, many of them are very elderly.

And the stress of the wait. Madam Deputy Speaker has brought about illnesses such as dementia. This is a shame that really, you know, we should hold our heads in shame. Also, there's problems with claims for loss of earnings and impact to life. Now, if you live your life in limbo, waiting for a decision, or if you live your life in shame, waiting for the government to acknowledge that you

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actually belong in the country, that has a Profound effect. And the fact that that's not considered is, again, unacceptable. And where people were sacked from their jobs, they didn't get their promotion. Some people couldn't find places to live and rent. And as I mentioned earlier, they didn't get their pensions. All of this, Madam Deputy, pensions. All of this, Madam Deputy, is unacceptable. And also caseworkers, currently, they're not sufficiently trained. I've had constituents tell me that the case was caseworkers have said to them, whereabouts is that from? Or, you know, are you sure when.

Of course, they're presenting information. I've also had teachers contacting me saying they can vouch for the West Indian children that they taught in their schools. If we need evidence. This is how the community is coming together to try and right these wrongs. Jackie also mentions the mis interpretation of demonstrating lawful status. This misrepresentation misrepresentation has led to cases being refused incorrectly. And she gives me an example of two brothers, now in their 30s, and they applied for indefinite leave to remain in 2008 as children of settled Windrush parents.

The Home Office wrongly refused their application, but later on, years later, the Home Office admitted that they made a mistake but not corrected. The knock on effect that that has caused and these brothers are still waiting for their justice five years later. And how about Madam Deputy Speaker, the constituents who went to Jamaica to visit family or bury a relative, and then when they went to the airport to come back, we're told they couldn't come back and were stuck in Jamaica.

We've got cases where people have been stuck in Jamaica for ten years, ten years, and there's a there's a a resident who's been stuck in Jamaica. He's got plenty of evidence, but he's refused compensation based on low no lawful status, which is wrong. He was offered £10,000, then told that that money, that amount was given to him was a mistake, and that re traumatised him. And now he is to showing signs of dementia. There's also a problem with requests for updates.

There's a lack of transparency, a lack of care. All of this, Madam Deputy Speaker, is unacceptable. There's also a discrepancy, as my hon. Friend mentioned in decision making between claimants. Now, exactly the same case, sometimes the same family. They present the information and they get awarded differently. Some get no awards, some get ten 000. Some get 4000. All of this shows that this system is not fit for purpose, and it should be moved from the Home Office. The Home Office should never have been the administrator of a scheme where they were responsible for the injustice of which they inflicted on others.

We need a truly independent appeal mechanism. We need more experienced staff, and we need to ensure that the appeal, because at the moment, constituents have to go to the Ombudsman and that means they have to go to the MP and the MP has to sign it. Whereas if they just need a straightforward appeal system, because this system at the moment is built to retraumatise people who are fully traumatised and wrong. And lastly, Madam Deputy Speaker, we need a Windrush inquiry. We really need to know and understand the cause of the scandal, but why it is still ongoing.

We should be providing redress instead of providing trauma. And next year is the 10th anniversary of this scandal, and the consequences and injustices are still ongoing. And it is our job. And I hope when the Minister gets to her feet, that she will commit to us putting these

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injustices right. Thank you, madam. Are you.

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Contributing as well? You may Joy Morrissey. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was so inspired by the Brent East I was so inspired by the Brent East member's speech that I thought I would just say just a few words of thanks to both the backbench Business Committee for bringing Business Committee for bringing this debate forward, but I just wanted to say a personal thank you
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14:27
Jess Brown-Fuller Portrait Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)
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And I call the Liberal Democrat >> And I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, Jess Brown-Fuller. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood Member for Dulwich and West Norwood for bringing forward this important debate, as I know she does every year on behalf of her constituents and for setting the scene so beautifully. As we celebrate Windrush Day. And it's a pleasure to speak today to celebrate the incredible contribution of the Windrush generation to our society, while also recognising the immense failings of the state in its treatment of them.

The Caribbean and broader black communities have enriched the social fabric of the United Kingdom, adding vitality to our streets, shops and culture throughout the country, that generation and their children and their grandchildren have inspired us. As the hon. Member for Beaconsfield said, and served our national interest through their contributions to our public institutions. We would be a poorer, less exciting, less dynamic, less colourful country. Had individuals not boarded ships such as the HMT Empire Windrush destined for the United Kingdom in order to help us rebuild after the Second World War.

And the hon. Member for Brent East spoke about Winston being embarrassed or ashamed by being a victim of what was a scandal, when actually he should have just felt pride in his contribution to our society. After serving decades in civil service as a member of the council, and the Member for Brent East also asked some really important questions about the efficacy of the compensation scheme and the. We often hear these similar issues raised when we're talking about infected blood compensation scheme, when we're talking about the LGBT veterans that were kicked out of the Armed Forces Scheme and the way that these schemes run and the caseworkers that are working on them, it's so important that we get this right so that they're not being retraumatized or expected to provide information that quite often they don't have and cannot provide.

In my constituency of Chichester, Madam Deputy Speaker, for passengers on the Empire Windrush that we know of were Roger, who was a student, Violet, a domestic worker, Samuel, a member of the Royal Navy. And we had a Winston, an accountant. Their stories and experiences will no doubt have varied, but Chichester was undoubtedly enriched by their presence, no matter how long they stayed with us. Winston's daughter was the late Andrea Levy, who represented so much of many of that generation in her writing about the lived experiences of Jamaicans moving to the UK, and we have seen extraordinary performances in my constituency of at Chichester Festival Theatre, often featuring black actors and written by black actors, and I refer members to my register of interests as a trustee of Chichester Festival Theatre.

But we have been on a real journey as a theatre to make sure that when people come to our city, which is not very multicultural, you know, we I think we're 96.8% white as a constituency, making sure that those people that we welcome to our theatre to provide incredible shows, feel welcome while they're staying in our city. And I know that the theatre has done a lot of work to, to make sure that those experiences are the best they can possibly be.

Our local students in Chichester have benefited from the work of Hakim Adi, the first African British historian to become a professor of history in the UK, who taught at Chichester University. Meanwhile, locals and tourists can learn much about those who came to Britain during the Roman Empire's involvement in Britain when they visit our remarkable Fishbourne Roman palace in Chichester and throughout the country. We owe our black community so much, yet at times we have let them down badly. The scandal that led to people being wrongly detained and deported due to a lack of documentation was a shameful chapter in our history.

They were invited here as British citizens, yet their dignity and rights were disregarded because of failings within the state apparatus. The previous conservative government failed to deliver the justice that those Windrush victims so deeply deserve. There was dither and delay in the implementation of the recommendations of the Windrush Lessons Learned review and, as the independent Windrush Commissioner has recently emphasised, the Windrush compensation scheme is not fit for purpose. As was mentioned by the hon. Member for Brent East, claimants often find the process of applying for compensation exhausting, painful.

Many receive no payment at the end of a lengthy and difficult process. Currently, 6 in 10 applications result in no compensation being awarded. The Liberal Democrats would urgently implement all recommendations of the lessons learned review in full and make the compensation scheme independent of the Home Office. Beyond the scandal, far too many people's lives are still blighted by prejudice, discrimination and inequality and we all have a responsibility to recognise this reality, but also the role that we can play in challenging these injustices.

It is clear that this is even more important in this chamber, because of the unequal experiences of people from ethnic minority backgrounds across our public services, whether it's in the criminal justice system, the NHS, or education, outcomes and opportunities are not equal, and it should be the ambition of us all to change that. And it is also particularly important in parts of the country that aren't as diverse as others. As I said in my constituency of Chichester is proportionately less diverse than others.

But but saying this, there are growing numbers of individuals from different ethnicities moving into my city, and it's important that we commit to ensuring that this isn't used as a political football to stoke division or hate. I'm proud that the Liberal Democrats are committed to fighting for racial equality, and that means unequivocally condemning racism in all its forms and tackling injustice wherever we see it. In our election manifesto, we committed to implementing a comprehensive race equality strategy aimed at reducing the disproportionately high maternal mortality rates experienced by black women and eliminating racial disparities in maternal health through a cross-departmental target and strategy.

And we also want to end the disproportionate use of stop and search and require all police forces to adopt ambitious targets for improving the diversity of their workforce throughout the country. We have also called for the reversal of the Conservatives voter See and for all parties to publish candidate diversity data. Madam Deputy Speaker, as has been outlined today through the outstanding contributions, the Windrush generation and our Caribbean and Black communities more broadly have given so much to this country.

I would like particularly to put on Read on. I would particularly like to put on record a tribute to my noble friend, Baroness Floella Benjamin. Her story, her upbringing, her work, and her continued advocacy on behalf of the Windrush generation. Those invited here to help rebuild Britain has been truly inspiring. She continues to hold the government to account in the other place, to ensure that people just like her, who came here from the Caribbean in the 20th century, receive the justice they deserve.

And I also believe that she first proposed the idea of a national Windrush day. So I pay tribute to her today, and I would like to just put on record a thank you to the Windrush generation for their incredible contribution to our society over the last 80 years. It now gives me huge pleasure to invite my.
14:35
Mims Davies Portrait Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)
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Constituency Labour Shadow Minister Mims Davies. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's always Madam Deputy Speaker. It's always wonderful to see you in the chair. Where to start? I always love this debate. May I start then? Of course, by thanking all hon. Members who have contributed to this debate. It's always a privilege to speak on behalf of His Majesty's loyal opposition and the hon. Lady from Dulwich and West Norwood opened up the debate very strongly in her typical style, and I hope that at Windrush Square she and those commemorating have a wonderful time and I concur with her comments around the story of us.

And as we have heard from across the House this afternoon celebrating the immense contribution of the Windrush generation is so important. The men and women who answered Britain's call in the years after the Second World War and helped rebuild a nation truly in need. The hon. Lady from Brent East. Politically we are very different, but in humanity we are so united and we approach things very differently. And it's always wonderful to to hear her speak. Reflecting on the Queen's English, I love that that was exactly what my mum said to me.

I think it was maybe a parental stock phrase around my minding, my P's and Q's as well. And perhaps we all were told that, well, as I said, this generation answered the call united by shared British values. As the hon. Lady from Brent East rightly pointed out, they brought with them not only their labour, but their resilience, their values, their determination to contribute to this country. And it was, of course, not the first call, Madam Deputy Speaker, answered by the Caribbean nations.

On the 3rd of September, 1939, the first message received by the British government following the declaration of war with Germany was a reassuring one. Barbados is with you. The short message was backed up with thousands of Caribbean men and women who served to defeat the greatest threat to freedom we have ever seen, and following the war, the Windrush contribution to British society has been profound, as we've heard, and continues to be far reaching. And that indeed should be celebrated in our economy.

The Windrush contribution have filled vital roles. We all know them in our public services, in the NHS, public transport industry, becoming truly the backbone of post-war recovery and in politics have we heard they and their descendants have truly enriched democracy with new voices, perspectives and, crucially, leadership and in sport, what goodness? What would we do without the Windrush generation in sport, representing Britain on the world stage with distinction, inspiring generations through excellence and perseverance. And as we've heard this afternoon, particularly from my hon.

Friend from Beaconsfield, in culture, they have transformed British life from music and literature to food, language and art, giving modern Britain its vibrant, diverse character. And alongside this story of contribution, we must. Madam Deputy Speaker, also acknowledge a painful truth. As we've heard briefly this afternoon, the reality of the racism experienced by many in the original Windrush generation was real harsh and deeply unjust. Of

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course. Thank you, Madam Chair, to the APPG and women to gather as many APPG and women to gather as many times we agree on things. Believe it or not, people think we don't agree across the House and times. agree across the House and times. But my hon. Friend agree with me that not only was the racism real then it's really disappointing now that that generation is now saying what's happening on our streets what's happening on our streets today? The abuse that they're getting today is very reminiscent to what happened when they first came to the country.

And we must set a better example and ensure that parliamentarians stop stoking division and hate in our country.

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Yeah, I thank the hon. Lady, and I would believe her to be my hon. I would believe her to be my hon. Friend as well. I completely agree in terms of standing up for that in terms of standing up for that abhorrent behaviour and those seeking to divide us, it's seeking to divide us, it's absolutely right that we reflect back on the discrimination that many felt around housing, many felt around housing, employment and daily life barriers that no one in a fair society should endure.

And I think that stands the test of time now as much as then, and any injustices as we've heard this afternoon that are lingering need to be understood and absolutely dealt with. Now, that experience, as the hon. Lady has rightly said, should belong to the past. And we must never forget. But we should also recognise that we as a country have changed fundamentally. Now, as the Sewell report made clear, Britain is not a racist country and that ought to be celebrated as an immense achievement and give us renewed commitment.

As the hon. Lady has said about continuing to tackle inequalities and make sure that they are dealt with and that they do not remain yet in in confronting injustice. We should also recognise, and I think there's a balance here about how far Britain has come so that people don't drag us back to the past. The overt racism that shaped the early experiences of the Windrush generation is unthinkable in today's society. Until we recognise that some people may still be experiencing that now, the Conservatives truly and simply believe in treating people as individuals, not categories.

And that's perhaps why we've been led by four women and two with ethnic minority backgrounds. And I'm incredibly proud of that. And this brings us to a broader truth as well about modern Britain. I think our Leader of the Opposition has argued that our country stands as a successful multiracial democracy, where people are from different backgrounds can and rightly should be able to live together under our shared laws, values and institutions. With respect. And as my hon. Friend from Beaconsfield reflected on learning to be British, we still love the hon.

Lady's accent, though. She's not listening. She didn't. She didn't hear that. Oh, there we go. I I. Our diversity is real. But also to is rightly our unity. And as the shield of Jo Cox says behind me and we are ten years on, there is so much more that unites us than divides us. And we truly have more in common as the hon. Lady opposite my co-chair with the All party Women in Parliament Group has pointed to.

And that again, we must, must push and highlight as we head to 2029, universal suffrage and the importance of women having voices and the votes. We cannot stand by and let any of that being eroded in this country and wider. Our public bodies and institutions must have a common commitment to fairness and opportunity so that we can preserve all that is within that ideal. Windrush and the generation shows that people from different backgrounds can come together and contribute and fully and roundly succeed, and not by retreating.

And this is a dangerous inter separate identities by building something that is truly shared and that is truly celebrated. I thank all the hon. Members for their contributions this afternoon, and I particularly love hearing about the work of Baroness Benjamin. I think we all look up to the Baroness, in fact, coming to work here and finding she works here too. It's pretty cool and slightly shows my age, but I'm sure I'm going on down that road anyway. So today we truly honour their great legacy, Madam Deputy Speaker.

We do it with gratitude. We celebrate success. It's a national one. It's worth sharing this year and onwards. Thank you. Well, the shadow Minister for East Grinstead and Uckfield, it's evergreen. Evergreen, which means very young. I call the Minister Nesil Caliskan. Yeah.
14:43
Nesil Caliskan Portrait Nesil Caliskan MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Barking, Labour)
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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. And may I start by congratulating my hon. Friend for securing this very important debate securing this very important debate and for her poignant speech. I also want to say thank you to other members for brilliant speeches and what is a really important topic and an issue that I know it has deep and personal feelings to many members across the House, and it means so much to so many around the country, including many who live in my constituency of Barking in East London.

And I'm grateful for the contributions today because they speak to the independent experiences and personal experiences of many of our constituents. As I say, there have been a number of excellent speeches, and I'll seek to address some of the specific asks from members to participate in a debate that has such a powerful and vivid history, brought the Windrush story to life. And let me begin by first paying tribute to the Windrush generation and their descendants. Earlier this week, we marked the anniversary of the arrival of the Empire Windrush at Tilbury some 78 years ago.

The people who sparked it disembarked in Essex on that June day in 1948, came to the country at a moment of profound need, a country still reeling from the trauma and destruction of the Second World War. They helped to build Britain, working in a range of settings including construction, public transport and manufacturing, as well as, of course, our NHS, an even more precious than the contribution they made as members of the workforce was the important part that they played on this national, socially and culturally to this nation.

From food to music, literature to art. As members have already outlined, the Windrush generation changed our society for the better. The Windrush story is indivisible from our national story. Those who came in the middle of the last century and subsequent generations are owed our thanks. And yet the tragic truth is that they have not always had it. In fact, for years, many were made to feel that they were imposters in their own country and subject to terrible injustices by the very state who call, who had called them to come to this country, the Home Office.

Windrush scandal reminds us of an embarrassment in our country's history. That is why this government will strive relentlessly to provide those affected with the support and justice they deserve. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to take a moment, as others have to reflect on what is primarily a moment of celebration. It is at this point every year that we come together to mark Windrush day and honour the immense contribution made by the Windrush generation and subsequent generations through a range of events that are taking place across the country, particularly this week, each a unique tribute to the Windrush story and the people who live it.

This year alone, the Windrush Day Grants scheme has funded 33 projects, bringing communities together right across the country. I know that my hon. Friend from my hon. Friends from across the chamber will have visited, as others have said, the portcullis exhibition. And it's very important that as legislators, we never forget the Windrush generation. So I'd really encourage everybody and those who haven't been to visit the exhibition in portcullis House, which runs until the 3rd of July. Despite adversity, the Windrush generation continued to build, to create, to contribute so much to British society, and the government is proud to support Windrush Day through the grant scheme and wider engagement across the country.

It is a time to commemorate, as I say, the legacy of the Windrush generation, to pause, to reflect and also to give thanks to ensure

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that they and their contribution are not forgotten. I am.

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Very happy to. I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. Britain is a great country, Bournemouth is a great country, Bournemouth is a great town and everywhere I go I see the values of unity and decency and I saw that recently in Saint saw that recently in Saint Walburga's Primary School in Bournemouth, where I was invited by the teacher, Karen Brown, to hear from year six students who were marking the Windrush generation. There were diary entries read out by Bruno Takondwa and Poppy.

There were poems that were read out by Alicia, Zak, Beatrix, Luke, Leo and Abigail, and the diary entries and the poems were written after they themselves had read Benjamin Zephaniah's Windrush child. Will the Minister thank these young people for trying to spread diversity in our communities at the same time as she thanks, the Windrush generation?

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Can I thank my hon. Member for highlighting how important it is that young people in our constituencies have the opportunity to learn about Windrush, to talk to learn about Windrush, to talk about it, to celebrate the contribution of what the Windrush generation gave this country, but generation gave this country, but also that they are able to articulate just how important it is. So I thank the young people in his So I thank the young people in his constituency for doing that, Madam Speaker, as well as celebrating the contribution of the Windrush generation, it is right that the state recognises the hurt caused by the Home Office Windrush scandal.

The government has committed to ongoing efforts to give those who are affected the support they deserve and the compensation they are owed through honest engagement and meaningful reform. The Home Office has worked to make the Windrush scandal fairer, faster and more compassionate. The aim is clear the right to right the wrongs as far as we can and deliver the maximum compensation as quickly as possible, and over 128 million has been paid in compensation, and more than 19,000 individuals have been issued, with documentation confirming their status of being a British citizenship.

While this demonstrates real progress, I recognise that some remain deeply frustrated. I know that no amount of compensation will undo the pain, suffering and loss of many victims who suffered. I've had the honour of meeting many of my constituents in Barking and Dagenham and across the country from the Windrush generation, their children and grandchildren, and they speak about their experience. They feel betrayed following the scandal, and they know that the impact still lingers. But the truth is we should do everything we can to talk about their experiences so that we can get this compensation scheme in a much better place.

It's an opportunity today for me to reiterate the government's position that we are determined to ensure those affected receive the documentation they require and the compensation they deserve. The government has been clear that community feedback must be at the heart of improving the compensation scheme, and I take particular note of the important points made by hon. Members. In particular the disparity between compensation secured when individuals apply for compensation alone versus the amount they might secure when they have legal advice, the Home Office will continue to listen and act on the concerns they hear, and I certainly will be making that point.

In particular, we know that the voices of those affected need to be loud and heard, so that their views can shape the government's approach. Likewise, as does the insight and expertise provided by the Reverend Clive Foster, who was appointed by the government as the first Windrush Commissioner a year ago. His role is to provide independent scrutiny and challenge in relation to the government's response to Windrush, support cultural change within the Home Office, and act as an advocate for those affected by the Home Office Windrush scandal.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I note with interest the very important points that members have made about the cultural change still required in the Home Office so that those who are victims are supported in an appropriate way. The re-established Windrush Unit are working with the Windrush commissioner and stakeholders to ensure we have a trauma informed approach when designing restorative, restorative dialogue events. The purpose of those events will be to listen and acknowledge the harm that occurred, and identify actions that the department and wider government must take to rebuild trust and ensure the lessons from the scandal lead to meaningful and lasting change.

The Home Office is also completing a review of all 30 recommendations from the Windrush Lessons Learned review, and then considering the next steps, I note the call for the compensation scheme to be moved from the Home Office to a different department, and I recognise that's in part because of the frustration of the process, the speed in which victims are able to secure their compensation. The Home Office view is that moving it to a different department may risk a delay in payments altogether.

And so the focus really is to improve the experiences of claimants at this point. Madam Deputy Speaker, 78 years today, but in two years will be the 80th. And so it's an important opportunity for us to be able to mark the national commemoration of the Windrush. It will recognise the lasting contribution of the generation and their descendants, and I wholeheartedly welcome the calls from members across the House to make sure that as a government, as a country, we are ready to celebrate the Windrush generation and that steps are already being taken by the government in securing a steering group so that we can establish what events can take place across the country, and we can adequately mark the occasion.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I'll close my remarks by thanking, once again members who have contributed today and my hon. Friend for securing the debate. I have heard all the points made, and I will certainly take it to the Home Office and speak to colleagues across departments in my remarks by just reflecting on the fact that, as the granddaughter of two people who decided to leave one island to come to another island, I know just how important it is that the experience of those who live in this country are recognised, even when they weren't good ones, particularly when they weren't good experiences.

It allows for us to be a better society. It also allows us to recognise that the rich and diverse communities that we live in have been built on the back of their experiences. So as we celebrate the contribution of the Windrush generation, we also redouble our efforts to right the wrongs of the past. And we do so for all those in the Windrush generation, because they deserve it. And it is the very least that we can do.
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Helen Hayes Portrait Helen Hayes MP (Dulwich and West Norwood, Labour)
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Helen Hayes to wind up. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank all of the hon. Members thank all of the hon. Members who've contributed to the debate this afternoon, but I also want briefly to mention the that I briefly to mention the that I received many messages from members who would dearly have loved to have contributed today, but who, for contributed today, but who, for reasons I think, to do with fleeing London because of the weather and also because there are some by elections taking place in London at the moment have been unable to do so.

So the relatively small number of speeches should not be interpreted in any way as a. Due to a lack of interest in in Windrush day itself. And the speeches that we have had today have been excellent. Can I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Brent East for sharing her personal family story and experience, and also for raising so clearly, the problems with the compensation scheme and the need for urgent further reforms, including independent legal representation and more experienced caseworkers. We can't forget that this work is urgent, that the Windrush generation are ageing, and that it is particularly egregious that people have died still waiting for compensation from this scheme.

I thank the hon. Member for Beaconsfield for her recognition of the Windrush generation and for sharing her personal memories as well, and the hon. Member for Chichester for bringing Andrea Levy into this debate, and also for her tribute to Baroness Benjamin. I am sadly old enough to be regarded by Baroness Benjamin as one of her play school babies, and she deserves all of our respect for the incredible work that she did to secure the National Windrush Monument at Waterloo.

Although I think there are perhaps a few different people who would lay claim to being the first person to raise the need for a national Windsor Windrush day. And can I thank my hon. Friend the Member for barking for responding to the debate. Thank you for her heartfelt tribute to the Windrush generation and for agreeing to take back concerns to to colleagues in government as they have been raised today, to the point about independence of the compensation scheme.

I would say that in my experience, many members of the Windrush generation 18 months ago recognised the reasons for not doing that, that if reform was possible, it would speed things up and people would not be left waiting for so long. But I do think that the government needs to take seriously the fact that experiences have not improved to the extent that is needed over the last 18 months, and that there are still calls for independence. We have not seen change at the scale that is needed to address all of the concerns, and I would be grateful to my hon.

Friend, if she could take that back and take seriously the calls of the Windrush Commissioner, Reverend Clive Foster, for independence. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I wish everybody well in their celebrations and commemorations of Windrush day over the coming days and this weekend? We must remember, I think, that this particular Windrush day is taking place at a very serious time in our history, that we must do everything possible to ensure that the cancer of racism cannot take hold in our society, and that our task is to support all of our communities, all of our wonderful, rich and diverse communities across this country to live well together.

Thank you.

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Thank you. The question is, as on the Order Paper as many that say, I. And my opinion say I, I of the contrary, no. the ayes have it, the ayes have no. the ayes have it, the ayes have it. I'll let the front benches have it. I'll let the front benches have a moment to shuffle over. Thank you. Wow. Congratulations and welcome. Well, before we've even begun. Before we got Mr. Vincent, we now come to the backbench debate on the diagnosis and treatment of PANS and PANDAS.

I call Wendy Chamberlain, who will speak up to 15 minutes Wendy Chamberlain. You're here.
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Wendy Chamberlain Portrait Wendy Chamberlain MP (North East Fife, Liberal Democrat)
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the debate from the gallery, and I am grateful for the doorkeepers for their accommodation in that regard. I know that the heat has meant many I know that the heat has meant many families who were planning to attend, as well as the PANS PANDAS UK team, have not been able to travel down and I know how understandably disappointed they are. But I am pleased to still have the opportunity to speak about this condition on behalf of the condition on behalf of the thousands of children, young people and families who want to know that their voices are being heard now.

their voices are being heard now. PANS paediatric acute on site set neuropsychiatric syndrome and PANDAS. Paediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorder associated with streptococcal infections. You can understand why we say PANS and PANDAS. Madam Deputy Speaker, our post-infectious conditions, which affect the brain and are recognised clinical syndromes by NHS England. It PANS as a condition in children and young people that can result from an initial mild infection, such as chicken pox or even Covid. PANDAS is a specific sort of PANS that stems from a strep infection, and whilst these initial infections might be mild, in some cases it triggers a misdirected immune response and a brain inflammation that causes the rapid onset of severe symptoms.

And I want to emphasise that rapid onset of severe symptoms. Children can go from being healthy and thriving to experiencing obsessive compulsive behaviours, tics, extreme anxiety, eating restrictions and profound neurological symptoms. Almost overnight. PANS PANDAS UK currently supports around 8000 families, but we know that this is likely to just be the tip of the iceberg. In reality, there are likely to be children and families affected in every single one of our constituencies. And I know looking at the members that are here today, it is often because they have been contacted by a constituent who is struggling to get support for their children.

That is the reason why they get in touch with their Member of Parliament and why we become engaged. And that's the same for me. Madam Deputy Speaker, I first became aware of PANS and PANDAS when constituents reached out to me for support for their daughter, who were struggling to get a diagnosis and the needed medication. And I want to emphasise the key point that early diagnosis and treatment are absolutely crucial. When identified, early outcomes are significantly better, and in some cases, a simple course of antibiotics can alleviate these symptoms.

However, the experience is very much the opposite. What we see instead is delay, confusion and inconsistency. Research from PANS PANDAS UK suggests that over 53% of families wait more than a year for diagnosis, and 37% wait for more

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than two years. I'm very happy to give way to the hon. Member. I thank the hon. Lady for giving way and for bringing this really important issue to the House today, and she will be aware that the government is introducing guidelines to on this particular issue in autumn. Does she welcome those guidelines being published, and does she hope that those guidelines will ensure that we get rid of the inconsistencies and postcode lottery that she's describing?

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describing? His intervention? As always, he is ahead of the game in relation to the remarks that I'm going to make. I'm very much looking forward to the guidance, but what we need to ensure is that guidance is understood and shared, and I

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suspect that the right hon. Member order. Not to interrupt her flow twice. I thought I'd get my intervention in at this point. She mentioned about the all important fact that about the all important fact that early diagnosis, coupled with the prescribing of a quite common prescribing of a quite common antibiotic, I believe amoxicillin is is one of them can make a is is one of them can make a crucial difference. I asked a written question in May of last year whether the Secretary of State and Social Care would take steps to facilitate the circulation of material to general practitioners, advising on how to recognise and treat with antibiotics and anti-inflammatory medications.

The conditions of PANS and PANDAS, and the response that I got from the Minister of State for care, was that this is all a matter for nice. It's an independent body, and they currently have no plans to issue guidance on paediatric acute onset neuropsychiatric syndrome and PANDAS as well. Should the evidence base develop further, we would look to the Nice to update clinical policy. So it seems to be that this question of early use of antibiotics is not yet accepted by the medical establishment.

Does she know whether there's hard evidence to show that the medical establishment needs to get it act

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together on the matter? Well thank you. I'm very grateful to the right hon. Member. And he may recall in the last Parliament the debate we had on this subject, where there was a commitment from the Minister then that she would ensure that GPS and that she would ensure that GPS and other medical practitioners were aware of the guidance that PANS PANDAS were producing. I am hoping PANDAS were producing. I am hoping that we are going to hear from the Minister today that she is is looking at that.

Yes, there is clearly a challenge, although the clearly a challenge, although the condition is recognised by Who. And as I mentioned, there is it is recognised by NHS England. There is clearly more to do to minimise that postcode lottery and indeed ensure

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that we can get that support for young people. Sorry. Yes, of course. I I'm sorry if I didn't express myself clearly enough. It's not so much a question about the non-recognition of PANS and PANDAS, non-recognition of PANS and PANDAS, but whether or not they recognised that the early treatment with the antibiotics can make all the difference.

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difference. I remember I'm sure that is something that the Minister can address in her closing remarks. I address in her closing remarks. I think we absolutely need to do that, because even if it's not, as you say, as the right hon. Member said, an amoxicillin might be one of the antibiotics that could be used, straightforward to utilise it. And in the vast majority of cases it does work. But if it doesn't, then potentially PANS and PANDAS could be ruled out.

Too many families face rejected referrals, long waits and in some cases, misdiagnosis. Only a small proportion are diagnosed within the NHS and many are forced to travel long distances or turn to private care. We know that this is not possible for all families, and it can mean that families are brought to their knees to afford the private care needed for their child. I am aware in one constituency example of mine, where within the same GP practice, one GP will provide support and the other does not recognise the condition and that makes things very difficult.

And I think I just want to mention something in relation to private support, because I have to say, in terms of the number of families that have engaged with, it's often that they have to go for private, private support. And it just makes me think, and I hope the Minister is sympathetic to this. What about those children from those families who are reliant on NHS support and do not get the diagnosis? And what about the fact that they are then absent from school for long periods of time, or indeed written off as potentially problematic families with children with problematic behaviours, when ultimately this condition could be at the root of the problem.

And when we're thinking about our on going economic wellbeing, we need to ensure that we support children to be in education as much as we possibly can. And that is why the research Madam Deputy Speaker is so important. We need to ensure that families can get the support that they need, no matter their financial situation. The National Institute for Health and Care Research funded evidence synthesis is currently under way, and that's something that's changed since the last time this topic was debated, and it is already highlighting significant gaps in our understanding, particularly around effective treatments.

Now with other members of the All-Party parliamentary Group on PANS and PANDAS, which I chair, we met with doctors some time ago who are researching how the brain functions. Their work suggests that there may indeed be biomarkers indicating a higher likelihood of developing these conditions, and they produce fascinating research that I would encourage colleagues to read. I really do believe that we need to understand how severe the impact of PANS and PANDAS can be on a child, and it is clear that further research is urgently needed to aid both diagnosis and treatment, which often needs to be ongoing.

Awareness and training are also fundamental without it. As we've mentioned, healthcare professionals miss the signs and teachers misinterpret symptoms. Children experiencing sudden neurological decline are too often viewed through the lens of behaviour, anxiety or neurodivergence rather than as a medical emergency. And from the children that I have engaged with through the Youth Board, it is a terrifying experience for a young person to be dealing with those symptoms. But I am pleased to say, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do think that we are at an important turning point that UK clinical guidance that the Member for Harlow mentioned is expected later this year, and there has been significant work since the last debate, which I held in September 2023, to bring PANS and PANDAS further into the policy landscape.

And I want to pay tribute to PANS PANDAS UK for that, because they have been the key drivers. As a charity to making that happen. But guidance alone will not be enough. It must be consistently embedded across the NHS so that we end the postcode lottery in diagnosis and care. And I suspect that we will hear about some of that from the other members who are speaking, because those consequences are profound. That human cost of delay and misdiagnosis is devastating. Children lose their ability to attend school, lose previously secure skills and experience severe psychiatric and physical symptoms.

And just a few months ago, I hosted a round table in Parliament where the PANS PANDAS UK Youth Board could speak directly to MPs about their experiences. As an MP, you obviously engage with the parents in the first instance, but it was very, very powerful to hear directly from children themselves who are experiencing this condition. And I know that they might not be here in the gallery, but I know many of them will be voting because we were informed that they are the voters of the future, and they are paying attention to what we do right now.

But it was an eye opening session, particularly for those who had not heard of the condition previously. Those children spoke about wanting to be believed, to be understood and to get help more quickly. Their message was clear earlier recognition could change everything. They explained how PANS and PANDAS have impacted their lives from watching their peers progress, whilst feeling stuck behind, being too unwell to attend schools or having to repeat years. And this just adds to a feeling of isolation. I think we can all remember the times when, when we were younger, where childhood was quite cruel.

Families have described watching their child disappear in front of them. Parents leave work to provide care. 36% report having to stop working entirely, and many families face financial losses as a result of that, but also in providing private care. We have also heard from siblings of children diagnosed with PANS and PANS at the Youth Board Round Table. In fact, I believe the hon. Member for Henley on Thames has a constituent here just this afternoon who is part of the sibling community, which was a stark reminder of how these conditions impact entire family units from the financial impact of having to seek that health care, or a parent leaving their job to home, becoming an unstable and predictive, unpredictable environment.

I also do want to touch on education. These conditions have a devastating effect on learning. Nearly half of affected children miss more than six months of school, and over a third missed more than a year, and they experienced the sudden loss of core learning skills on many occasions and under the current system. And I'm talking about in England and Wales, England, which is designed to support gradual, stable learning needs rather than acute on site. And indeed, under aspects of the proposed send reforms, there is a real risk that those children are misunderstood without clear guidance.

Education professionals currently default to familiar frameworks. Sudden loss of skills can be misinterpreted as behavioural or neurodivergent, leading to inappropriate supports being put in place and a delay in the medical intervention required. And that is why that alignment between health, education and local authorities is so critical. And I am standing here as a Scottish MP. We must ensure that this alignment takes place across the UK to ensure that there is not a postcode lottery determining the level of support available. My Scottish Liberal Democrat colleague Adam Harley, the new MSP for Strathclyde and Bearsden, recently raised the case of his constituent in the Scottish Parliament and I was particularly disappointed in the response of the First Minister, John Swinney, where he referenced PANS PANDAS as a rare disease.

It was clear he knew nothing about it because, despite my own correspondence with his government, we have seen limited progress in Scotland. I want to emphasise to colleagues today it is not potentially a rare disease. It is an undiagnosed one. I genuinely believe that there are many, many children who have PANS PANDAS, who have not been diagnosed and are not therefore getting the support that they need. But this does underline the need for close engagement with devolved governments to ensure a truly joined up approach to improving support, and I would like to highlight that while today's debate will largely focus on children and young people with PANS PANDAS UK, it is equally important to recognise the challenges faced by adults.

One adult with PANS PANDAS shared with me that she has experienced mostly neuropsychiatric psychiatric symptoms rather than physical ones, and research shows that PANS and PANDAS can be associated with systemic inflammation and autoimmune responses affecting the whole body, including conditions such as arthritis and other inflammatory diseases. In this person's case, tests revealed ongoing systemic inflammation that has caused damage to tissues and organs over time. As the immune system mistakenly attacks healthy cells rather than protecting them. Too often, the type of symptoms that PANS PANDAS can manifest are put in a basket of symptoms that are just too difficult to deal with.

And as I conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, these are the practical steps that we are asking the government to consider. First, as the UK clinical guidance is published later this year, there must be a clear commitment that steps will be taken to ensure that it is embedded consistently across the NHS, not left to chance, and that appropriate stakeholders are engaged to support its dissemination. Secondly, we need training for healthcare professionals and for those working in education so that symptoms are recognised early and acted upon appropriately.

And thirdly, we must see a renewed commitment to research funding building on the National Institute for Health and Care Research work to address the significant gaps in evidence and improve treatment pathways. I ran the London Marathon, my first ever, at the end of April, fundraising for one of the charities was PANS PANDAS. It should not take fundraising to deliver the funds that are needed to deliver the research that will provide the right support for these children. And finally, there must be clear signposting and alignment with the forthcoming local authority guidance to ensure that schools and services are equipped to meet their legal duties.

As one clinical psychologist working with a young person with PANS has stated without training, pupils risk unnecessary and avoidable long term loss of skills and I will be pushing for exactly that in Scotland. This debate is an opportunity to put these issues firmly on the record, to raise awareness across Parliament and to ensure that families living with PANS and PANDAS feel heard. I am grateful to those colleagues who are here today. I look forward to hearing their contributions and to the minister's response. Thank you.



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I know the Member for North East Fife for running the marathon and of course, raising funds for PANS of course, raising funds for PANS and PANDAS. The question is, as on the Order Paper, and I now call Julie Minns.

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Julie Minns. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. And can I thank the hon. Lady for North East Fife the hon. Lady for North East Fife for introducing this debate so well this afternoon? It's always a pleasure in this place when you
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Julie Minns Portrait Ms Julie Minns MP (Carlisle, Labour)
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pleasure in this place when you discover that you have something in common with members from across the House. And in recent months, the hon. Lady and myself have discovered that we share an interest and passion for Jane Austen. A hard. Agree that the BBC 1995 production of persuasion is by far the most severe, superior, but more importantly today that we share an interest and a desire to improve both the diagnosis, the understanding and the clinical treatment of people of all ages who are living with PANS PANDAS Madam Deputy Speaker, I first became aware of PANS PANDAS when my constituent Joanne came to see me about her son, Jake, shortly after my election.

Jake has lived with PANS PANDAS for more than six years. For a period of time, treatment was effective and NHS continuing healthcare funding enabled Jake to access the care of a specialist immunologist. However, despite the progress that had been made, the family have since faced repeated challenges in securing the treatment and funding resulting in uncertainty, stress and significant personal expense. I therefore appeal to North East and North Cumbria ICB to please help urgently resolve these issues and I have an outstanding query into them on exactly this point.

Joanne has worked tirelessly to advocate for her son, yet she continues to encounter delays, poor communication and a lack of clarity and uncertainty about funding. I think a story that would be all too typical of families who are trying to support a family member living with PANS PANDAS. While this case is deeply personal, it also highlights the wider challenges faced by these families. Too often, parents like Joanne find themselves navigating complex systems, spending years seeking access to appropriate care and treatment, all while battling for recognition of their child's condition.

It was thanks to Joanne that I had the privilege of meeting members of the PANS PANDAS Youth Board when they visited Parliament in April and shared with me, as has been said, and other parliamentarians, their personal stories. And can I welcome again today here in Parliament. I therefore welcome the government's work with the Royal College's specialist clinical bodies and PANS PANDAS UK on the development of clinical guidelines, and can I ask the Minister, when she makes her remarks, if she could give us some indication of when, perhaps the government might expect to publish the first UK clinical guidelines for PANS and PANDAS? These guidelines should, I hope, result in a clearer and more consistent framework and recording of these conditions.

Without an official diagnostic pathway and reliable data collection, it's difficult to understand how many children and young people are affected. It's difficult to assess the scale of unmet need or to ensure that appropriate services are available. Better recognition and data would therefore not only support future research and service planning, but could help ensure that families like Jake's receive timely,

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coordinated and compassionate care. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Sea, North East Fife, for securing this debate today and for her advocacy in today and for her advocacy in raising the profile of PANS PANDAS. Can I also thank the hon. Member for Carlisle for the comments she's made, and I hope she gets a response from her ICB very soon. I'm waiting for one from mine. Last month I attended a meeting month I attended a meeting organised by the all party group for PANS PANDAS, which which my
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Freddie van Mierlo Portrait Freddie van Mierlo MP (Henley and Thame, Liberal Democrat)
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colleague leads to hear from young people directly on their experience of the condition and the impact on of the condition and the impact on their lives. What stuck with me from that meeting was a powerful comment made from one of the young comment made from one of the young people there. She said, we don't want your sympathy, we want your action. And let that be the the action. And let that be the the comment that lasts too, with the Minister here today, action, not sympathy.

One of the young advocates at the meeting was my constituents, ten year old Alby and his mother, who are watching the debate today from the gallery and braved the heat to come here from Oxfordshire. Alby's brother is diagnosed with PANS PANDAS and Alby has become a tireless and devoted campaigner on his brother's behalf. Alby has launched a letter writing campaign and he's already 19 months deep into his campaign and has become pen pals with the most powerful and influential people in the country, including His Majesty the King, the High Sheriff of Oxfordshire, the Prime Minister and various Ministers, NHS leaders and leading clinicians and, of course, the speaker's office.

I'll be proud, proudly showed me in a constituency surgery and again this afternoon, his beautiful handwritten letters and the responses all stored safely in a binder. And I'm proud to have on my wall in my office here in Westminster, a thank you card from Alby with his trademark drawing of a panda. His next campaign is to write to all 26 main children's hospitals, asking them to send a doctor or member of staff to the PANS PANDAS Clinical Professionals Conference in October in Royal Leamington Spa.

Hope. His hope is that if more clinicians learn about recognising and treating PANS, PANDAS children like his brother will receive more help quickly. Alby is an inspiration to all of us and is driven by love for his brother. You're here. I wish him continued success and I'm sure he's assured me, and he's assured me today that he's already dusting off his pencils to write to the right hon. Member for Makerfield. However, at just ten years old, Alby should not be having to do this.

He feels compelled to do this because the NHS and successive governments have failed. Families like his. His family have had a difficult time getting the diagnosis and treatment needed, and this is not unusual. When surveyed, only 2% of patients and families said that GPS recognised their child could have PANS and PANDAS. The path to diagnosis can take months or years, with persistence from parents required to advocate for them. Many are forced to spend thousands of pounds on private assessments and treatment because the NHS support is inadequate.

When asked by a show of hands at the all party group at the meeting, every single young person said their family had paid for private treatment. It is unacceptable that an entire condition requires, by default, private care. It bakes in inequality and places extreme stress and strain on parents. I know as a parent I would do anything for my child and Albie's mum is no different. But the financial pressure placed on ordinary, hardworking families like hers is devastating. The lack of specialist clinicians and knowledge within the NHS appears to be the major cause of this, with too many clinicians misidentifying the condition and refusing treatments being deployed in the private sector, we urgently need better guidance for the NHS to close this gap.

Families are already fighting to be heard by professionals that all too often dismiss or do not recognise PANS and PANDAS. Therefore, I welcome the announcement that this will review independently produced guidelines from PANS guidelines, Guideline Development Group and PANS PANDAS UK through the Guideline Collaboration Programme. However, I am concerned by my most recent correspondence with the Minister for Women's and Health, Women's Health and Mental Health, who sits in the other place on this topic, and she said should the evidence continue to increase, organisations such as Nice will consider updating clinical policy.

My reading of this is that there is no clear commitment to that. Clinical guidance will be adopted by Nice, and I would be grateful if the Minister here today would comment specifically on this point and that,

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yes. At the risk of just labelling the same single point I want to make again and again, there really make again and again, there really does seem to be no downside to does seem to be no downside to telling all GPS if there is any question at all that this child question at all that this child might have PANS or PANDAS prescribe him one of the basic antibiotics him one of the basic antibiotics because he or I should say he or she could benefit from it

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tremendously. And there is no risk of harm. Thank you. And I thank him for his intervention. I wholeheartedly his intervention. I wholeheartedly agree with him. There are very few downsides of prescribing an antibiotic, and especially in the antibiotic, and especially in the case of the seriousness of this condition, as he says, there's there's really no good reason to there's really no good reason to halt withhold this medication. A second challenge facing families is the impact on the child's ability the impact on the child's ability to participate in education.

Missing months of school because they are too unwell to attend. This not only affects their learning but limits opportunity to socialise, make friends and have a community beyond home. Every child has a right to education. PANS PANDAS does not limit ambition or ability, but our education system is placing limits on children with the condition. Section 19 of the Education Act 1996 is in place to stop this happening. It requires local authorities to arrange suitable education for children who cannot attend school due to illness.

However, the provision is not always effective for children living with PANS and PANDAS, and parents still need to be advocates for their own rights rather than being proactively told them and guided through the process. And there is a wider point here, too. Families are often left fighting for support from multiple systems at the same time, including healthcare, education and local authorities, while trying to take care for a very unwell child. It's the last thing they need. There are steps the government can take to limit the challenges.

Firstly, PANS and PANDAS must be researched in greater depth. It is currently unknown how many people are affected by PANS and PANDAS in the UK, and there is no official guidance on the diagnosis and treatment of these conditions in the NHS. Secondly, training of health professionals to recognise and treat the condition. PANS and PANDAS are conditions with a very high risk of long term disability, exclusion from society and failed education. Families expressed that if only their children's condition was recognised sooner by health professionals, it could have had a significant impact on their child's well-being and outcomes.

Third, to improve the support offered to children in education, the publication of the local authority guidance is anticipated this summer, and it is important that the guidance will ensure schools and services meet their statutory duties for children with PANS and PANDAS. Thousands of families are fighting for support from multiple systems while taking care of unwell children. It is time the government do their part and eliminate the barriers to diagnosis and treatment for those living with PANS and PANDAS.
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Susan Murray Portrait Susan Murray MP (Mid Dunbartonshire, Liberal Democrat)
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I'll be is a superstar, as is his mum. I now come to the Liberal his mum. I now come to the Liberal Democrat spokesperson Susan Murray. >> Thank you. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm

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Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm grateful to my hon. Friend, the Member for North East Fife, for securing this debate and for all securing this debate and for all her work to raise the profile of these childhood conditions. And thanks also to the backbench Business Committee for selecting this for debate. My hon. Friend, as she said, first raised PANS and PANDAS in this House more than three years ago and has pushed for change ever since, and I too. I have to say that I was very pleased to meet the very impressive Youth Board for PANS and PANDAS on their visit to Parliament.

But for families, the onset of PANS and PANDAS is often sudden and deeply distressing. A child who was well one week and the next to be gripped by anxiety, tics or obsessive behaviours. What follows is too often not treatment, but a search from GP to specialist and back again for someone who can provide a diagnosis. Almost three years ago, my hon. Friend asked the government for a small number of reasonable things, and I'm sorry to say that families have still not seen the change that they're entitled to expect, and I hope that what we have heard earlier means that it will be coming soon.

The Department of Health and Social Care has said that it does not hold data on how many children are affected, and Nice has not yet produced guidance after concluding there was insufficient evidence to produce useful guidance. Any clinicians are still left without clear national pathway to follow, even if they are aware of the conditions. And the result, as we've heard, is a postcode lottery. A survey for PANS PANDAS UK found that just 2% of families said their GP even considered PANS or PANDAS, as a possibility for their child's symptoms.

Families who can pay go private to see specialists. Children whose families can't pay, lose their childhood, miss school and fail to thrive. These delays are not administrative inconveniences, they are a risk to children's lives. According to PANS PANDAS UK, 43% of parents say their child has talked about taking their own life, and 61% say their child has expressed a desire to no longer be here. These are young children made desperately unwell by a treatable condition, waiting months or years for someone simply to recognise what is wrong.

There are two mothers in the gallery today, one from my constituency and Mid Dunbartonshire, and one from just next door. Both have been forced to spend significant sums of their own money on diagnosis and treatment, including travelling down to London to see specialists in private clinics. And as we've heard, this isn't unusual. Nearly a third of families affected report a financial impact of more than £50,000, and 1 in 8 more than £100,000, simply to get their child diagnosed and treated.

What we have is a system in which a recognised diagnosis is is reserved for those who can afford to pay for it, and those who can't are often left behind. Two weeks ago, as we've heard, my Liberal Democrat colleague Adam Harley, who represents the same families as I do, raised one of these cases with the First Minister in the Scottish Parliament calling for properly recognised NHS guidance. So while health may may be devolved, families across Scotland face these very same barriers as anywhere else in the UK and frequently end up in England to access treatment, can I ask the Minister if she has had any discussions with the Scottish Government regarding taking a unified approach to tackling this issue, given we are expecting clinical guidance to be released in August, I'm sure families in Scotland would greatly appreciate seeing cooperation between governments in Holyrood and Westminster to help bring the postcode lottery they currently face to an end.

PANS and PANDAS are treatable conditions and children can get their childhood back. To make this happen, I urge the government to help plug the current gaps in evidence and knowledge around these conditions, including the number of children affected through supporting research, the Liberal Democrats have called for an increase in research and development spending to 3.5% of GDP to help drive British research and develop a greater understanding of conditions like PANS and PANDAS, and evidence the efficacy of available treatment and effective treatment, which can change a child's life.

Children like

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Isa and Hugo for as little as £9. Effective diagnosis and treatment Effective diagnosis and treatment will save the NHS money. Our NHS was founded on the idea that it was founded on the idea that it would treat according to need, not ability to pay. Sadly, in the case of children with PANS and PANDAS, of children with PANS and PANDAS, too often that principle is not being upheld. Families are simply being upheld. Families are simply trying to find treatment for their children and are being failed, and we must rectify that.

Wherever in the UK they might live. Thank you.
15:31
Neil Shastri-Hurst Portrait Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst MP (Solihull West and Shirley, Conservative)
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And I'll come to the Shadow >> And I'll come to the Shadow Minister, Doctor Neil Shastri-Hurst, and welcome to the despatch box. >> Yes. >> Thank you very much, Madam

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. And may I begin by saying what a privilege it is to respond to this debate on behalf of respond to this debate on behalf of His Majesty's loyal opposition. I'd like to start by paying tribute to the hon. Member for North East Fife, for securing today's debate and for setting out the landscape facing those with PANS and PANDAS in the UK, but also recognising the lack of knowledge about it and the challenge that presents. I'd also like to thank her for her sustained work through the APPG on this issue.

Many honourable and honourable right hon. Members have contributed to today's debate. I'd like to thank the hon. Member for Carlisle, who spoke movingly about Joanne and Jake, who have been living with PANS PANDAS for the last six years, and the challenges about not getting the treatment or the funding that they need. The hon. Member for Henley and Tim, who made a very good point about how those affected don't want sympathy, they want action. And of the excellent campaigning of Albie, who is here today following his brother's diagnosis, I suspect his handwriting is somewhat better than my doctor's scrawl.

So I commend him on that. The hon. Member for Harlow, who is always keen to to speak up and champion these issues on behalf of his constituents, who spoke about the importance of guidance and the right hon. Member for my right hon. Friend for New Forest East, who talked about the importance of early use of antibiotics. But above all, I want to speak directly to the families and the children who are following this debate, who live with PANS and PANDAS every day.

And of course, some of those are with us here today in the gallery. For them, this is not an abstract discussion. Madam Deputy Speaker, it's not a discussion about guidance or systems or clinical pathways. It's about the child that they love. It's about the moment something changed, and it's about the exhaustion of trying to explain that change to people who may never have heard of the condition before. And it's about parents who overnight become advocates, researchers, case managers and campaigners, whilst simultaneously trying to hold their families together.

And it's about the children and young people whose lives can be altered suddenly and terrifyingly. And as we've heard during the course of this debate, PANS and PANDAS sit at the intersection of neurology, psychiatry, immunology and infectious diseases, and that matters. Madam Deputy Speaker, because they don't fit neatly into one service, one speciality, one clinic or one Budget line for those children. Affected symptoms can, of course, be sudden and severe. Obsessive compulsive behaviours, restricted eating tics, anxiety, behavioural change, sleep disturbance, regression, movement difficulties, school refusal and distress that can overwhelm the entirety of the family.

For some families, the story is stark. A child who was settled and sociable becomes frightened, withdrawn and unable to eat. A child who was thriving at school begins to struggle, and families find themselves moving from GPS to Camhs, from paediatrics to emergency departments, from school meetings to safeguarding conversations, and often without a clear pathway, or a clinician who is able to say, do you know what? I recognise this and this is what we need to do next. So the first task before us is to diagnose the problem honestly.

And the problem isn't that every scientific question has been answered. Clearly it hasn't. There is uncertainty, there is professional disagreement. And and there's a need for stronger evidence, better data, and more research into diagnosis, treatment and long term outcomes. But uncertainty has too often translated into inconsistency. It has meant too many families are left without a clear answer to. Many clinicians are left without guidance. Too many schools unsure of how to respond, and too many children caught between services that each see part of the picture but don't see the child as a whole.

Presently, there is no official NHS clinical guidance for the diagnosis and treatment of PANS. PANDAS nice has previously concluded that the evidence was insufficient to provide useful guidance. Now the government has said that it is not currently collected because internationally it can't be agreed as to the criteria. Local integrated care systems are expected to plan services, but there are ways to do so without consistent national direction. And of course, that risks variation and variation in reality, as we've heard, leads to a postcode lottery.

It means that one family may find an informed GP, paediatrician or neurologist, whilst another is left scrambling for help. It means one family, one school may understand the sudden onset and fluctuating need, whilst another sees only challenging behaviour. It means one parent may feel believed, whilst another feels blamed. That's the difficulty at the heart of this debate. PANS and PANDAS cuts across the way. Our systems are organised. The NHS is still too often structured around separate silos, whether that's mental health, neurology, infectious disease, immunology or paediatrics.

But children living with these conditions don't arrive in neat administrative categories. Their needs are complex, sudden and overlapping, and that makes it hard for families to know where to turn. Madam Deputy Speaker For clinicians who want help but may not have had the training to do so, for schools who see a child's behaviour change dramatically without understanding what is driving it, we must also be candid about the emotional difficulty. Parents can feel dismissed. They can feel treated as difficult. They can be seen as overanxious when they are simply trying to explain what has happened to their child.

No child should be left waiting for help because the system is unsure as to where they fit. The previous government didn't solve this, but foundations were laid through the UK Rare Diseases Framework, annual action plans and engagement with research including the APPG and the working Group, and the current government has welcomed clinical guidance being developed by PANS PANDAS UK and has said that Nice will consider national guidance as evidence improves, have pointed to NIH research and extended the Rare Diseases framework into 2027.

And where the government does do the right thing, we should welcome that. But today, the question is whether those actions are sufficient, whether they need to go faster and whether they are reaching the families on the ground. Madam Deputy Speaker, families do not experience this as a framework or an action plan or a written answer. They experience it as the moment a child refuses food, the moment compulsions appear, the moment school attendance collapses, the moment a parent is told that a professional has never heard of the condition.

So if the problem is complexity, inconsistency and a lack of recognition, the solution must be equal. In its seriousness. The foundations have been set and now we must all go further. We, of course, need action on guidance. The clinical guidance being developed by PANS PANDAS UK and the PANS Guideline Development Group brings together expertise from general practice, paediatrics, neurology, immunology, infectious diseases, psychiatry, psychology and nursing. But I would be grateful if the Minister can set out how the government will engage with that guidance once it's published, and whether she will commit to a clear process for assessing emerging evidence.

We also need to take action on professional awareness. Madam Deputy Speaker and I, I recall reading about this in Kumar and Clark when I was a medical student, but I don't recall having any formal training around it. And it's not enough for to ask that our clinicians are responsible for keeping their knowledge up to date. Atypical, complex and contested conditions require practical support. And so I ask the Minister to consider an awareness package for frontline professionals developed in conjunction with clinicians, families and experts.

We also need action on data and research. We need better data, diagnostic clarity and research into treatment and long term outcomes. And with that in mind, I would appreciate the Minister setting out how the government intends to support this work and encourage greater patient involvement. There is also the need for greater consistency across local systems. If support is left entirely to local discretion, care will depend on where a family lives or how hard they're able to fight for it. Clearer information should be available to Icbs on how suspected cases can be supported across specialities, and schools also have to be part of the answer.

For many families schools, where is where the change is first noticed? Better awareness of sudden onset and fluctuating systems symptoms could help ensure sensible attendance. Policies and classroom adjustments are flexible, rapid and responsive. Madam Deputy Speaker, this debate shouldn't be one that divides the House. It should be one that unites it. There will be different views on the evidence, on treatment, on guidance, but there should be no difference between us on the need for children to be seen, families to be heard, clinicians to be supported and care to be based on evidence rather than the accident of geography.

For families living with PANS and PANDAS, progress will be measured by whether the next family gets an earlier answer, whether the next child is believed sooner, whether the next GP has somewhere to turn, and whether the next school understands that is a fair standard. Madam Deputy Speaker it's a compassionate standard and it's the

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one the government should now meet. I now call the Minister Minister Hodson.

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Hodson. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. And can I start by Deputy Speaker. And can I start by thanking the hon. Member for North East Fife and the backbench Business Committee for bringing Business Committee for bringing forward this debate today, which I think we can all agree has been think we can all agree has been small in number but mighty in the quality of contributions that we've heard from hon. Members today. And can I also thank you for the opportunity to be able to also speak today on the subject of PANS and PANDAS, as hon.

Members have highlighted, these conditions cause significant distress for many children, young people and their families. It is therefore vital
15:42
Sharon Hodgson Portrait Mrs Sharon Hodgson MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Washington and Gateshead South, Labour)
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that we approach this issue with both scientific care and genuine compassion, recognising and compassion, recognising and responding to the lived experiences of those affected and some of those experiences we've heard from today, from hon. Members, and I thank you from hon. Members, and I thank you all for your contributions. As we've heard today, PANS and PANDAS are closely related but distinct clinical syndromes in which an infection can trigger, often as quickly as overnight. As we heard from the hon.

Lady, acute and often dramatic changes in both physical and mental health, they are areas of evolving clinical understanding, with diagnosis based on observed signs and symptoms rather than definitive tests, meaning it is typically a diagnosis of exclusion, requiring clinicians to rule out other causes. While this can make diagnosis complex, it underlines the importance of a holistic, joined up, child centred approach, and treatment is similarly tailored and delivered through multidisciplinary teams with psychological therapies such as cognitive behavioural therapy, commonly used to manage symptoms alongside pharmacological pharmacological interventions where appropriate, alongside clinical intervention.

Supportive care is essential, and this includes helping families to understand the condition, supporting school attendance where possible, and ensuring access to appropriate mental health services. And effective care requires coordination across services to provide consistent and holistic support, so we recognise the challenges that families face, and I want to welcome the families who have joined us in the gallery today, particularly as these conditions can sit at the intersection of physical and mental health services. Good clinical practice emphasises the importance of a holistic and multidisciplinary approach, including close collaboration with parents, schools and other agencies.

However, the absence of definitive biomarkers and fully understood mechanisms has contributed to a variation in how care is delivered. And in response. NHS England began working in 2020 with the charity PANS PANDAS UK, who I commend for their work in this area to improve awareness, understanding and care and this led to the establishment of the PANS PANDAS steering Group, which brings together representatives from key Royal Colleges, specialist clinical bodies and the charity sector, and the steering group has since progressed several important initiatives.

First, work is underway to develop the first UK clinical guidelines for PANS and PANDAS, led by a multidisciplinary group and supported by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. And my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle asked me around timelines for this guidance, and I'm happy to be able to tell her today that these guidelines are expected to be published in the autumn of this year and will support more consistent care across the system. And until then, clinicians are currently advised to draw on existing international guidance, including the Nordic Nordic Clinical Guidelines, which were published in 2021.

Second, a dedicated research group is advancing efforts to strengthen the evidence base, including through a nationwide surveillance study. And third, a cross-sector group is developing practical guidance for local authorities to improve support for children and young people living with PANS and PANDAS publications, due on that later this year, ensuring more consistent access to appropriate educational and social care services. And as we've heard today, clear and consistent frameworks are essential to improving coordination across services and strengthening recognition of PANS and PANDAS.

NHS England's forthcoming Children and Young People's Modern Service Framework will address health system challenges that affect all children and young people, improve access to specialist advice, promote more integrated working across physical and mental health services, and strengthen the strategic commissioning role of integrated care boards and more widely, NHS England is also supporting local systems to implement neighbourhood multidisciplinary teams, bringing together professionals across health and social care and wider services to deliver joined up community based care, ensuring all children and young people can access coordinated support and paediatric expertise closer to home.

And the hon. Lady who speaks for the Liberal Democrats asked me about discussions with Scottish Government and devolved administrations, and I understand that they have been no direct discussions so far, so I will commit my officials following this debate to engage and raise this with devolved government counterparts at the next opportunity, and alongside these developments, there remains a clear need for high quality research, and this includes improving understanding of the underlying causes of PANS and PANDAS, refining diagnostic criteria, and building stronger evidence on the effectiveness of different treatments.

The Department supports research through the National Institute for Health and Care Research, and we welcome applications across all areas of health, including these conditions. Recent collaborations include the PANS PANDAS Unveiled project, which recently completed an evidence in gap map on the epidemiology, prevalence, treatment and experiences of PANS PANDAS, and in the meantime, integrated care systems are responsible for planning services for their populations and should continue to draw on emerging evidence and guidance to improve care and

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outcomes in. I will very happy to give a. I detected she was moving towards her conclusion. The towards her conclusion. The Minister has a fine record. Before she became a Minister of she became a Minister of campaigning on meshed mesh damaged women and that was a occasion where women and that was a occasion where something simple was done, which led to very complicated problems. led to very complicated problems. Here we have a complicated condition, but it is thought that something simple could be done, namely, the guidance should be given to all GPS that if this condition is even suspected, a simple course of antibiotics should be given.

I haven't heard anything yet in what she said as to whether or not the research backs this up, and if the research hasn't been done, will she undertake to make sure it gets done and that the general practitioners are advised

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accordingly? Minister Sharon Hodgson. And I thank the hon. Gentleman

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And I thank the hon. Gentleman who I have worked closely with over a number of years on a number of health matters. As he mentioned, health matters. As he mentioned, the work we did together on mesh, and I also studied my speech for. After listening to your intervention and the the

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conversation around antibiotics to. Oh, sorry. Absolutely. It wasn't mine. It

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was the hon. Member's intervention. And thank you. I should know better. After 21 years in this better. After 21 years in this House. It just shows you can always teach an old dog new tricks. So yes, teach an old dog new tricks. So yes, after the hon. Member's intervention around antibiotics, that there was nothing in particular in the content of my remarks in that regard. But therefore I've come to the conclusion that that will be what will come forward in the guidelines and the guidance later this year, and I will be looking for that closely, and I'm sure my officials have heard this debate, and it was mentioned in this debate, as you say, as the hon.

Member says, a simple course of antibiotics. If that is going to make all the difference, then obviously that would be something we would seek to ensure happened. In closing, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to emphasise that the experiences of children and families affected by PANS and PANDAS are real and significant, and that we are taking action to strengthen the system and deliver meaningful change. Our responsibility is to respond with compassion, to listen carefully and to ensure that support is accessible, timely and appropriate, and by strengthening the clinical awareness, improving integration across services and continuing to build the evidence base, we can move forward towards a system that delivers better recognition, more effective support and improved outcomes for children and young people and their families.

Thank you.
15:51
Wendy Chamberlain Portrait Wendy Chamberlain MP (North East Fife, Liberal Democrat)
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Wonderful. Wendy Chamberlain to >> Wonderful. Wendy Chamberlain to wind up. >> Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I particularly thank you for your very kind remarks for Albi and others in relation to today's debate. There are a number of themes that came up for those honourable and right hon. Members who contributed today. And I've always found with the APPG, that the number of MPs who join the APPG increase over the term of the Parliament, because it comes about through casework that they get involved, and to hear from the hon.

Member for Carlisle and my hon. Friends from both Henley and Thame and Mid Dunbartonshire in relation to their constituents experience, I think that, very much to light. I commend the Shadow Minister for his debut at the despatch box, and both he and the Minister talked about the intersection that PANS PANDAS UK its diagnosis and its symptoms represent. And I think what we are finding challenging and families are finding challenging, is that that intersection is not being properly recognised. And often what happens is that children end up going down a mental health pathway where they are left in limbo for far too long.

And often we talk about the pressure on mental health services and young people. If we could actually diagnose PANS PANDAS sooner, then potentially we would not be setting children off down those pathways. And then I want to think about those young people and their families. And I think that was well illustrated in the debate, the challenge that is presented. And I hope that those here today, and also those watching online feel seen and heard, following on both from today's debate and from the youth Board that we had recently in the last Parliament, I passed a private member's bill giving the right to carer's leave.

And when I was doing that work, we spoke with carers who talked about the guilt of the administration of carers and that preventing their ability to actually care. And on PANS PANDAS, that is something that comes through very strongly. We clearly need to do a whole lot more here and build that awareness. My husband and I were watching the film, I swear a few weeks ago. If any of you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. My husband turned to me during the point where John Davidson, who is depicted in that film, was attempting to kill himself as a young person who had dealt and was starting to deal with the Tourettes he was dealing with.

My husband said, do you think that might have been PANS that caused his condition, given the way that it came on and was described in the film? It might just be how many conditions, potentially or symptoms that we see could be down to PANS PANDAS. And as the right hon. Member for New Forest East said consistently during the debate, potentially that early treatment and diagnosis, early treatment and testing via giving antibiotics might just be the way of preventing some of the more serious symptoms from coming.

I've been encouraged by what I have heard from the Minister today. Looking forward to engaging. Looking forward to supporting her engagement with the Scottish Government too. And I thank again on such a warm day, everybody, for being here and taking the time to contribute.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. A very, very powerful debate. The question is, as on the Order Paper as many that opinion say, I. I of the contrary, no. the ayes I of the contrary, no. the ayes have it. The ayes have it. I'll give the frontbenchers a moment to give the frontbenchers a moment to give the frontbenchers a moment to shuffle over. Thank you. Right.

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Motion number two on business of the House. Minister to move. I beg to move.

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I beg to move. The question is, as on the Order Paper as many that opinion say I. I Paper as many that opinion say I. I may say I I marvellous. I've of the contrary, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

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ayes have it. I beg to move that this House do now adjourn. The question is that this House do now adjourn, and I call Emily on. Houses in multiple occupation.
15:55
15:56
Emma Lewell Portrait Emma Lewell MP (South Shields, Labour)
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important to make the distinction that when discussing HMOs today, I am not discussing supported accommodation which provides much needed care, supervision and support for those in need. Nor am I discussing student accommodation or blocks of self-contained flats. This debate today is also not about well managed HMOs because in South Shields they are not. The majority of our HMOs. Nor is this about stigmatising residents of HMOs, whom from without a room in an HMO they would be homeless and literally have nowhere else to go.

It is also not about asylum seekers in temporary accommodation. We have a welcoming community in South Shields and have never turned away anyone in genuine need or seeking protection from conflict, war or persecution. The fact that HMOs are being used as a substitute for good social housing or supported living environments is a failure of successive governments to build enough affordable homes. It is a false economy, though, to saturate an area with HMOs instead of focusing on building this good quality social housing.

I know the government are making steps to address this, but the progress is painfully slow. I have been to visit some of our HMOs in South Shields. They are absolutely shocking. People living in HMOs deserve better and my constituents putting up with badly run HMOs blighting our community deserve better too. In South Tyneside we have approximately 60 HMOs, 51 of which are in my constituency. That accounts for 85% of the total amount across our small local authority.

But since a licence for an HMO is only needed if there are five or more people living in it, then we really don't know how many they are. Smaller HMOs are not accounted for in the figures. Parliamentary to. The questions to the Department have also said that the government have no idea how many HMOs there are, nor do they know how many have been closed due to licences not being properly adhered to. But I live in my constituency. It's my home and as all MPs do, I speak with my constituents regularly.

We know and we see that the number we have in South Shields is unmanageable. In one street there are properties housing nearly 100 HMO residents. In some streets, nearly every other property is an HMO. This is heavily concentrated in two parts of my constituency, Beacon and Bents in West Park. We are all completely fed up of the crime, the anti-social behaviour, the violence, the theft, the damage to property, the drug paraphernalia on our streets. We are fed up of drug addicts and alcoholics wandering around exposing themselves, leaving excrement on our streets.

We are fed up of the noise, the violence and the general rubbish and rats and the decline of our overall environment. That is common with some of these HMOs. I remember talking to one lady who said she and her neighbours no longer let their children play out in the front garden or street. Last time they did, a drunk with his head split open tried to approach their little girls. This is not the South Shields that I grew up in. These are.

There are streets that were once lined with big grand houses leading down our beautiful coast and into the town centre that now feel unsafe for me and those of us who are proud to call South Shields our home, to walk down their very.

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Of course, of course. for. Giving way, and I thank her for

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Giving way, and I thank her for obtaining this debate. In the town of Bridgwater we've had an of Bridgwater we've had an increasing number of HMOs being developed. It leads to an enormous developed. It leads to an enormous number of vehicles trying to park in a single road. It changes the in a single road. It changes the nature of an area, and the council seem powerless to stop this. So would she agree with me that local authorities need additional powers to restrain the number of HMOs in any particular area, and further, that permission should be required

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for HMOs with fewer than five people. Emma Lewell-Buck. Thank the hon. Member for that

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Thank the hon. Member for that intervention. He Pre-empts what I'm going to talk about later in my speech, but also I'm going to be speech, but also I'm going to be able to explain what we actually did in South Shields. Myself and residents forced our council to do exactly what he has just referred to. The very character and history to. The very character and history of our housing is being demolished before our eyes and dropped and chopped up by greedy developers who want to make money off the back of vulnerable people.

These are streets I have known my whole life, and it is absolutely heartbreaking that this has been allowed to happen. It is impacting on the quality of people's daily life. House prices and community cohesion. Ion residents are totally fed up with it. We spent years working together to try and get the council to stop new applications and increase inspections. Every single time we were tied in knots with legislation and told nothing can be done. It's just the way it is. Yet last year, on the 3rd of November, I presented a parliamentary petition on behalf of the people of South Shields demanding action and that the Council used the very powers they had to stop the proliferation of HMOs.

I also asked in that petition for the government to strengthen legislation in relation to the monitoring of HMOs, so the badly run ones can be closed down quicker. Two days later, the council decided to implement what we were asking for a borough wide article four direction. This means that regardless of the size of a

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needed. On that point. Of course. Daniel Francis.

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Daniel Francis. Thank you, and I thank my hon. Friend for securing the debate. Now, we have an article four in London we have an article four in London borough of Bexley, where I'm one of the members of Parliament, but we're now seeing there are rules under the Charities Act 2011 which under the Charities Act 2011 which mean that if you're a charity running temporary accommodation or a housing or temporary accommodation for people suffering accommodation for people suffering from drug or alcohol abuse, or a mental disorder or your official provider, you don't need that permission.

And I'm seeing in my caseload landlords who are joining charities, who are not putting people in there under those conditions and are circumventing the restrictions are in place. So would my hon. Friend agree that we need to ask the government to look at how some landlords are now using that restriction, following article four, to try and further circumvent the regulations that are in place.

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Thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I completely agree with him. We have seen in South Shields that developers are doing exactly the same. They are getting around the article four restriction. Some of them have started to create Airbnbs, which are HMOs, but they're referring to them as they're referring to them as Airbnbs in the law and getting away with it once again. We did have article four, as my hon. Friend does in his constituency, in force in some parts of my constituency.

But this was after we were already saturated in other parts prior to the article four. A property housing up to five residents in most areas of the local authority did not need planning permission. But this does not now necessarily mean that new applications will go to planning committee. The request has to be made for it to do so via myself as the MP or an elected councillor. Madam Deputy Speaker, it should not have taken years of meetings, letters, parliamentary questions and a petition to get the council to act.

It worries me how many other areas are not utilising this article. Four direction. But even when applications have been refused, they are appealing them. And it cannot be right that hundreds of residents voices are being ignored in favour of developers who do not live in our area, much to my dismay. South Shields is actually advertised on developer websites as the place to go to set up your HMO. My message to these developers is it is not the place to come to set up your HMO.

We will not be treated in this way and nor will we allow vulnerable people to be either. I have also been made aware that there is currently a Statutory Instrument before this House. That will mean local councillors and MPs will no longer be able to call in planning applications for HMOs. So that means that local people will literally have zero say in what happens in their own neighbourhoods, streets or the house next door to them. Instead, officers in the local authority will make the decisions.

This is outrageously undemocratic. I cannot believe that the government thinks this is acceptable to discount the voices of entire communities in favour of developers who do not live in the area, and then delegate these important decisions to officers who often don't live in the area either. This is a really crude way to address the housing crisis and will completely fracture communities, as well as placing local local planning council officers in really difficult positions with the communities they serve. For those HMOs already in existence that are badly run, the licensing regime is supposed to ensure that certain standards are adhered to.

But since the inspection, since the inspection that was with the licence can be only every five years at renewal of that licence. It's not very robust and I think we can all agree if something isn't inspected for five years, there is a lot that can go on. These licences must meet mandatory conditions around fire safety, minimum room size and provision of amenities and crucially, landlords are supposed to pass the fit and proper person test, a principle that is open to wide and broad interpretation.

And in practice in South Shields we have seen, is simply not working. One of our former guest houses was being used illegally as an HMO. Residents were quite clear with me, with the police and with anyone who would listen that it was being used for prostitution and drug drops. This was after the landlord had already received a significant fine for poor management of a previous HMO. Another HMO was opened up by landlords who had convictions for previously letting properties with cannabis farms in them.

It would appear it is almost impossible to fail the fit and proper test. Now I know my hon. Friend the Minister is very knowledgeable and is known for being thoroughly across his brief. But the government's response to my petition and questions have been a little lacklustre, stating that local authorities already have powers to limit the proliferation of HMOs, and that the government keep the powers to regulate them under constant review. I wonder if my hon. Friend today can explain to me when the Department last thoroughly reviewed this dire situation, damaging our communities, and if they would be willing to conduct a full review and take steps to collate the relevant data that the department was unable to provide me with.

If you do not know the size of the problem, it is very difficult to then take steps to solve it. Would he also please ensure that licensing is strengthened in that powers for revoking licences are much, much stronger and. I would also ask that he revokes the s I that's currently before this house. This will strip our constituents from exercising their democratic right to object to planning that directly affects their neighbourhood, my constituents and their views matter. We in South Shields absolutely love where we live.

We get on very well with most of our neighbours. We are proud of our history. We are proud of our heritage and our buildings. And as their MP, they will always have me by their side. When we say we do not want any more HMOs in South Shields, we want the existing ones that are causing problems closed down by the introduction of robust and enforceable licence requirements. We are simply pleading with the government today, after years of trying to get someone to act, to take some action for once and all, for once and for all.

Thank you.
16:09
Matthew Pennycook Portrait Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)
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Yeah. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields on securing this important debate, on securing this important debate, and also thank those two other hon. Members who made brief contributions to it. Madam Deputy contributions to it. Madam Deputy Speaker, I appreciate fully the concerns. My hon. Friend raises about houses in multiple occupation and in particular, the excessive concentrations of them in two parts of her constituency and the many problems that she has described so vividly that flow from those excessive contribution concentrations.

HMOs can play an important role in the housing market, providing relatively low cost accommodation for rent. My hon. Friend acknowledged that contribution, but it is right that local planning authorities can act, where appropriate, to minimise any negative impacts that such houses may have on local communities. Now, my hon. Friend made a number of points concerning the interaction between HMOs and the planning system. As she rightly said, large HMOs always require an application to the local planning authority for planning permission. However, nationally permitted development rights allow for existing homes to change use to a small HMO for up to six people without the need for a planning application.

Such small HMOs are also able to change back to standard family homes under similar rights. We do have a recognised that the free operation of these national Permitted Development rights is not always suitable for all areas. That is precisely why local planning authorities can remove permitted development rights in a specific area by means of introducing an article four direction, following consultation with the local community. Now, as she made clear, South Tyneside Council has introduced a borough wide article four direction, which means that all new HMOs in its local area will need a planning application regardless of their size.

I know that my hon. Friend has previously drawn attention to the impact of the growth of HMOs in her constituency, and therefore will welcome that change. I know the role she played in pressing her local authority to make it. All applications for planning permission are considered by the local planning authority in question, in line with the development plan for the area and in consultation with the local community, is therefore key that local planning authorities have relevant and up to date policies in place.

Now, as my hon. Friend will be aware, South Tyneside Council last adopted a local plan back in 2007. This means that the policies in the plan are significantly out of date, and it's one of the oldest plans submitted in the legacy planning system. Following the council's repeated failure to agree to submit their new plan for examination by an independent inspector, I intervened to ensure the plan progressed to examination. I'm pleased Madam Deputy Speaker to report that the examination hearings have been completed, and that the inspector's final report is currently awaited.

Following receipt of the inspector's report and in line with my intervention direction, the Council will need to consider adoption of the plan. Adopting the plan will ensure that the Council will have up to date planning policies in place for South Tyneside, and that is hugely important. My hon. Friend will also be aware that the government recently consulted on a new national planning policy framework. That consultation included proposals for a more flexible policy in relation to the use of article four directions, so that local planning authorities can remove national permitted development rights where it's necessary to safeguard the amenity or wellbeing of an area, for instance, where there is an overconcentration of small HMOs.

We are currently analysing the feedback received to that consultation and will publish our response in due course. Now it is essential, Madam Deputy Speaker, that HMOs are safe and well managed. That is why all HMOs are subject to management regulations. These regulations place duties on managers of HMOs to take safety measures, supply and maintain gas and electricity, and maintain common parts, fixtures and fittings. In addition, all local planning authorities must licence HMOs with five or more people from two or more households who share facilities such as a kitchen or bathroom.

Local authorities also have the power to require HMOs to be licensed, where there are three or more people from two or more households sharing facilities. This means in practice that most HMOs can be licensed where necessary. Local authority can impose licence conditions to ensure landlords effectively manage HMOs. They also have the power to inspect properties without notice, where they believe an offence has been committed under HMO legislation. Furthermore, the licence holder must undergo a fit and proper persons test to ensure a local authority that they can manage the property responsibly, safely and lawfully.

I note my hon. Friend's concerns about the operation of that test and its potential shortcomings. I'm more than happy to sit down with her and work through some of the examples she provided, so that we can learn more about the operation of that test. But if a local authority finds that the licence holder is no longer fit and proper, for example, where they have committed a serious or repeated breach of licence conditions, it can revoke their licence. Local authorities have additional robust powers to tackle landlords who breach HMO regulations.

This includes civil penalties of up to £40,000 rent repayment orders and, for the worst offenders, banning orders. Now, the government wants to ensure that councils have the capacity to take.

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I will give way. I thank the Minister for giving way and he is right. There are way and he is right. There are regulations in place, there's the fit and proper test, but it's not working. This is why I've held working. This is why I've held today's debate. This is why me and my constituents are asking for stronger regulation, because

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stronger regulation, because everything that's in place is simply not working. I thank my hon. Friend for that

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I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. As I've said, I'm more than happy to sit down with her, with other hon. Members, to hear what suggestions they have specific suggestions about where they believe the regulations need to be strengthened. But our experience as a department has been that in some areas of the country, the powers are being properly enforced. The regulations are working. So I want to understand more from her if she's able to provide the evidence about what's not.

I will make I will give way in just one second, because I just briefly want to mention the issue of resources, because I think it's really important. It's vital that councils have the capacity to take action where needed, and that's why we've provided £18.2 million in 2025, 26 and £41.1 million in 2020 627 to support the new enforcement responsibilities that local authorities have taken on under the Renters Rights Act, and we plan to establish a more sustainable funding system for enforcement in the private rented sector over the longer term, based on future database revenue fees.

But again, I want to understand the challenges that particular local authorities are facing in this respect. Let me

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just give way to my hon. Friend, and then I'll come to the. Minister again for given we would the Minister be able to

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would the Minister be able to explain how many licences actually have been revoked? Mr. I don't have that information to

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I don't have that information to hand. I'm more than happy to follow up in correspondence with my hon. Friend. As I said, and I'll bring that that data and what more data that that data and what more data we've got available to any meeting we might have on the subject if the hon. Gentleman, Windsor.

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I'm grateful to the Minister for giving way. I suspect the answer to the hon. Ladies question is very few indeed, and the issue in Bridgwater is that a few miles from my constituency we have Hinkley Point C, the nuclear power station being constructed. Many thousands of workers, good workers have come to the town. They will peak at about 12000 workers in the next couple of years. So the local council really needs the power to restrict the number of HMOs in any particular street or district, because it's clearly there's a housing need.

One understands why landlords convert those houses, but it's the change in the nature of certain areas brought upon by those economic pressures. And councils

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need the power to restrict the concentration of HMOs Minister. And I say to the hon. Gentleman, they have that power. I don't know whether his local authority is consulted on and put in place an article four direction. I don't article four direction. I don't have that information off the top of my head. If they don't, I'd encourage him strongly to make the case to his local authority to case to his local authority to ensure they're making full use of the powers. And I think this is the the crucial point, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is.

Is it a case that the powers are in place are inadequate? If so, let's have that debate and conversation amongst hon. Members. Or is it the case that for whatever reason it might be, individual local planning authorities are unable to or unwilling to exercise the powers they already have properly? If that is the case, we need to understand what more they need in the way of resources support, guidance to be able to do so. I want to briefly touch upon social and affordable housing because my hon.

Friend rightly said that the ultimate solution to ensuring we've got enough housing supply in any given area is to build enough new homes of all tenures, but that includes social and affordable homes. She'll know, and I know she's welcomed our new ten year, £39 billion social and affordable homes programme. This is the largest long term investment in social and affordable housing in recent memory, and through the programme, we have an ambition to deliver around 300,000 homes over that programme's lifetime. And as she knows, we've set a target for at least 60% of the homes delivered to be for social rent, providing the genuinely affordable homes that families need in her areas and others.

We're also taking decisive action to reinvigorate council house building, including a new ten year housing rent policy, and we've reinstated rent convergence. This will strengthen council's capacity and confidence to build new homes, and we're taking action to reform the right to buy, including returning right to buy cash discounts to between 16,000 and 38,000. And again, as she knows, we'll go further in implementing the next phase of reforms to our social housing bill, which is making good progress in the other place.

That will include allowing councils to keep 100% of the receipts generated by right to buy sales, with increased flexibility in how these can be spent. And we're already seeing the fruits of many of the reforms we have put in place. Data released just this morning. Madam Deputy Speaker, from Homes England and the Greater London Authority in respect of affordable housing completions and starts those shows, starts up 26%, completions up 8% on 2020 425, and we're delivering the highest number of social rent starts since 20 1011.

I just want to finish on the national scheme of delegation, which my hon. Friend mentioned. We are modernising how planning committees function. We've been very clear about the case for doing so. We want to ensure that in exercising their democratic oversight, planning committees are focussed on the applications which require member input, not revisiting applications and decisions that have already been taken. We published a working paper on this in December 2024. We carried out extensive engagement. Following that, we formally consulted twice on the reforms one in in May 2025, on the principle of a two tier system, with some decisions delegated to planning officers, and once, in March 2026 on the draft regulations and guidance, we're debating them.

Actually, next week. I just gently push back on my hon. Friend's contention that local voices local objections are cut out. Nothing in those regulations in the instrument we're debating will stop local residents objecting to applications registering their discontent. But we do think on a certain set of applications, it's right that expert planning officers make the decisions. And I will give way. Just briefly. And just to make the point, Madam Deputy Speaker, schemes of delegation are in place across most local authorities in the country.

The problem is there's just huge variation that is creating issues in the planning system. We want to streamline that with a simple set of rules across

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the country in a national scheme. I thank the Minister for being incredibly generous and giving way incredibly generous and giving way to me again, just in relation to the Statutory Instrument. Of course, constituents and residents will still be able to voice their concerns, but will those concerns actually go to a committee to make a decision, or will all decisions a decision, or will all decisions now on HMOs, once that S.I. is in force, go directly to council

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officers for decision? Well, again, I'm happy to sit down and run my hon. Friend through the instrument in lots and lots more detail than I can do at the despatch box here. But it is the case that the national scheme of delegation doesn't specify HMOs in particular. However, development not covered by the HMO permitted development right will fall into schedule. One of the national scheme of delegation, where those decisions will be delegated to expert planning officers.

As I said, we want to ensure with these reforms that planning committees and their valuable time are focussed on the most controversial applications where their democratic oversight is is best placed. I will

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give way one more time and then I'm going to wind up Ashley Fox. I'm grateful to the Minister for

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I'm grateful to the Minister for being so generous with his time. One of the reasons so many HMOs are required is the lack of social housing, and certainly around Bridgwater I've had developers approach me. They've completed a approach me. They've completed a private scheme. They want housing associations or charity to take associations or charity to take those houses, social houses off their hands, and they haven't got the funds to do it. And I've raised this with the Minister before, who told me he set up a register to match housing associations with developers, with social housing, to effectively dispose of to them.

Could he update us on how

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successful that register has been? Minister the Register was

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Minister the Register was successful in its aims in terms of providing operators with a chance providing operators with a chance to submit Uncontracted unsold section 106 units. We've got a roughly just over 4000 units put roughly just over 4000 units put into that clearing service, which closed on the 1st of June. We, through the policy intervention we made, encouraged local authorities made, encouraged local authorities to consider how best to get those units moved cascading to market sale in instances where they felt they needed to do that.

But that small number, which was far below the estimates that we heard from some quarters, is a sign. I say that some of this problem is working itself out. We are providing registered providers of affordable housing with greater financial capacity through our rent settlement, through rent convergence, through all of the interventions we're making, which is allowing them to buy more of those section 106 units and get those stalled schemes moving. To conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, local planning authorities, I said, already have powers to restrict the proliferation of HMOs they already benefit from or can deploy licensing powers to ensure HMOs are safe and well managed.

And they do have, we believe, robust powers to ensure landlords of HMOs comply with all relevant regulations. As I said, I'm very interested to hear from hon. Members in terms of particular cases where they think their local authority is not able to enforce the regulations that are already exist, where instances of actors circumventing that system. I was very interested in the example. My hon. Friend from Bexleyheath and Crayford gave there the type of things we want to work through. If it if it transpires through those examples that the regulations are lacking in some way, we will, of course, take that into account.

I've made very, very clear. We do keep the regulation of HMOs under review to ensure that the system works in the way that we all want

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to see it. The question is that this House

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The question is that this House do now adjourn as many as of that opinion, say I. I the ayes have it.
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