House of Commons

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

Thursday 13 June 2013

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock

Prayers

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

1. What steps he is taking to increase exports.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

Our ambition is to double exports to £1 trillion by 2020. This ambition was reflected in the 2012 autumn statement, when UK Trade & Investment was allocated an extra £140 million to enable it to double the number of small and medium-sized enterprises supported from 25,000 to 50,000 by 2015.

[Andrew Selous]

The Government have made an excellent start, with exports to Brazil up by half and to India by more than half and those to China almost doubled, yet still only one in five SMEs exports. Were we to get that up to one in four, we could wipe out our trade deficit, so what efforts are the Government making to engage with the four out of five SMEs which currently do not export but whose products and services would be attractive to overseas markets?

[Vince Cable]

My hon. Friend analyses the problem correctly: we have to make a major effort in big emerging markets, which we have neglected in the past. We have identified 20. I have been to the majority of them, leading trade missions, as have my colleagues. With reference to raising awareness, for example, in May, a few weeks ago, we had 80 events across the country identifying 3,600 businesses with interests in emerging markets, and there is a greatly increased tempo of activity in the field through the establishment of chambers.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

What has the Secretary of State learnt from the experience in Germany, where the state-backed investment bank makes export finance one of its priorities and one of its objectives? Does he think there are lessons there for this country that could improve access to export finance to address the problem that he has just set out?

[Vince Cable]

The Germans do indeed have a very good system of export support and trade finance. They do many of these things well. Partly in response to that, in the earlier period of this Government I introduced a new range of short-term trade finance products that we had not had before. They are now picking up a substantial amount of interest, and in the Budget the Chancellor announced £1.5 billion for medium-term—three to five-year—export credit guarantees, which are now being implemented.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

In the Secretary of State’s assessment, what would be the implications of a Brit EU exit on the export sector?

[Vince Cable]

I am going to Luxembourg tonight. I hope that by the end of tomorrow we will have to agreed to launch those very important negotiations. This is potentially the biggest trade deal that has been accomplished for many years, and it will have major implications—positive implications—for British exporters, particularly in sectors such as cars.

[Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State’s answer to the very pertinent question posed by the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) smacked of complacency. His response did not mention the fact that figures published last week showed that the value of exports has fallen by 1.3%. The CBI also said last week that the trade figures were “unsatisfactory”, with

“still a long way to go. The Government needs to do more to help raise exports to the fast-growing economies.”

Does the Minister agree with the CBI’s assessment? Is he satisfied with the Government’s performance in boosting trade so far or does he think he needs to raise his game?

[Vince Cable]

The game has been raised very considerably over the past three years but the hon. Gentleman is right. The figures on exports are not great and the reason is simple: half our exports go the European Union, where output is declining. It has a major economic crisis. Exports are growing rapidly to emerging markets. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) cited the figures and I will repeat them: 28% growth in the past year to Russia, 16% to Brazil and 16% to China. That does not suggest that we are not trying.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

3. What steps he is taking to improve consumer protection.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

Yesterday the Government published our response to the recent consultations on consumer rights and, alongside that, a draft Consumer Rights Bill. This will help consumers and their advocates understand their rights when things go wrong.

[Damian Hinds]

A constituent of mine paid £20 for the previous day’s congestion charge, rather than £12, having found an authentic-looking site at the top of Google’s listings. The ownership disclosure was out of sight on the landing page, below the fold. What can be done to protect against such intermediary internet rip-offs?

[Vince Cable]

As many of us know from our constituency work, there are a large number of consumer rip-offs. The purpose of this legislation is to provide for much stronger redress, particularly in internet trade, which is growing rapidly—we have had the most rapid growth of any country outside Finland—and we must bring consumer legislation up to match it.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

Glasgow’s Evening Times reported this week that one in five Glasgow citizens is currently using payday loans to try to meet everyday costs. What measures do the Government propose taking in their new legislation to protect consumers and, in particular, control the rollover of payday loans, which is often the nub causing people to go into serious debt?

[Vince Cable]

A great deal is happening on the payday loan front. The Office of Fair Trading is coming to the end of its investigation, which will result in action that is appropriate to the competition authority. Responsibility will shortly pass to the Financial Conduct Authority, which has more powers and can be more active in that field. We are looking, in particular, at how we can deal with misleading and dangerous advertising in that area.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

At my surgeries I have met residents who have come to see me because they are anxious about having been ripped off or having been victims of mis-selling. What will the proposals do to help them get their money back?

[Vince Cable]

They will considerably improve the rights of redress, and there is a whole series of specific measures in the Bill, which will be debated at length, on how to achieve that. When we aggregate all the redress elements, we estimate that it will probably be worth something in the order of £4 billion over 10 years to consumers.

[Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

In June last year the Government announced a crackdown on cowboy builders. The DCLG website states:

“The measures will also ensure that householders have a financial safety net in place… if… self-check installers fail to finish work properly or if they can’t be chased through the courts.”

Around 85,000 complaints about cowboy builders are made to the OFT every year. Will the Secretary of State tell the House how many people have benefited from that Government scheme in its first 12 months?

[Vince Cable]

I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman exactly how many, but I am happy to write to him about that. I launched the scheme and am therefore interested in seeing how successful it has been. Over the years we have all met constituents who have had appalling experiences with rogue builders. The existing system operating through trade standards has not been totally effective. This kind of branding will, we hope, bring more cowboy builders to account.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

4. What recent assessment he has made of the performance of the car manufacturing sector.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)]

The UK automotive industry is in great shape: last year UK car production increased by 9% and car exports exceeded imports by value for the time since 1976. The new automotive investment organisation, which we are announcing today, will build on that strong performance, which has already attracted more than £6 billion in global investment over the past two years.

[Neil Carmichael]

I thank the Minister for that impressive description of the current state of the British car industry. What measures is he taking to ensure that we have sufficient skills, particularly in engineering, to develop the components industry in the car sector as well as recognising the need to provide new technologies?

[Michael Fallon]

Addressing the skills challenge and increasing the supply of engineers is critical for the automotive industry and others. It needs attention in schools, where the Department for Education is investing £135 million in science and maths education, and from industry itself. I hope that more car companies will follow Nissan’s lead in taking up the employee ownership pilots.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

As a west midlands MP, I join the Minister in welcoming the success of the British car industry, which is a tribute to the industry, its work force and trade unions and his Department under both Administrations. Is it not extraordinary that other Government Departments do not back the British car industry, especially the police, who are buying more and more foreign vehicles? Will he talk with the Home Secretary to get her to back British industry? It might even help her leadership ambitions.

[Michael Fallon]

They may not need that much help.

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point about procurement by public authorities. He has been to the Department recently to discuss the matter with me and I have written to him about it.

[Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)]

In South Staffordshire we are seeing the construction of a £500 million new engine plant for Jaguar Land Rover. However, one of the great constraints on the automotive sector is the need for more engineers coming through our university system. What more can the Government do to encourage more engineers to drive forward our wonderful automotive sector?

[Michael Fallon]

We are encouraging more children to take up science subjects and to study maths earlier and for longer, and to be more aware of the high-value, highly regarded careers that are available in engineering. We are urging companies to open up their premises to more visits from schools, particularly in connection with the See Inside Manufacturing initiative that we are launching again this October.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

5. What steps he is taking to ensure that small business suppliers are paid promptly by large businesses and by government; and if he will make a statement.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)]

I have written to all the FTSE 350 companies urging them to sign up to the prompt payment code. Signatories must pay their invoices on time to maintain membership. Three quarters of FTSE 100 companies are now signatories, and over 1,400 large companies have signed in total.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Last year a Federation of Small Businesses report showed that 40% of small businesses had faced problems with payment from Government agencies and quangos. Will the Minister make the prompt payment code mandatory for all public sector organisations and consider budget cuts for persistent offenders?

[Michael Fallon]

There is now a statutory obligation for all public bodies, including the NHS and local authorities, to pay invoices within 30 days.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister agree that paying small and medium suppliers on time is part of the broader responsibilities of the large company? Will he look at the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012, which is making a real difference for small and medium-sized enterprises and their relationships with taxpayer-funded local authorities and health authorities? Will he try to ensure that large companies pay taxes and have a broader responsibility to the community in which they sit?

[Michael Fallon]

That goes a little wider than the original question, but I agree with the hon. Gentleman. There are large companies sitting on large amounts of cash, and it is not right that smaller businesses in their supply chains should have to wait longer than 30 days to be paid promptly.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

6. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of his Department’s budget for medical education and research.

[The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)]

The Government are committed to well-funded medical education and research and to maintaining long-term funding in these areas. In 2013-14 we will spend £330 million on health education and £630 million on health research.

[Valerie Vaz]

I thank the Minister for his answer. However, the chair of the Medical Schools Council has said that any move of this budget to the Department of Health poses a significant risk of undermining Britain’s leading position in health research and education. Will the Minister confirm that he will resist all attempts at Treasury short-termism and a move of the budget to the Department of Health, as this area is a driver of growth and a global strength for the UK?

[Mr Willetts]

It is a global strength for the UK, and that is why we have protected the Medical Research Council’s budget in real terms. Only last week we had the topping-out ceremony at the Crick institute—the opening of the new laboratory of molecular biology. On the particular issue that the hon. Lady raises, I cannot do better than to quote the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who said the other day:

“I give you an absolute commitment that I will do nothing that jeopardises that vital basic research that the Medical Research Council undertakes, and I would always make sure that that money is not used for other things.”

We cannot do better than that.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

The Government have announced more university training places for medical students and doctors. This is a matter of some urgency given the wave of doctors who are due to come up for retirement and the fact that it takes seven years to train a doctor. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on this?

[Mr Willetts]

I know that my hon. Friend has a particular interest and expertise in this area. Of course, the number of students who come through for medical training is very carefully planned, taking account of the needs of the NHS for future doctors.

[Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the Minister’s answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), but perhaps I could press him to go further specifically in relation to the potential moving of the Medical Research Council’s budget to the Department of Health. He will be aware that the chief executive of the Association of Medical Research Charities has described the proposed move as a “fudge” that will threaten the independence of medical research in this country. Does the Minister still believe in the Haldane principle, and if so, will he commit to keep the Medical Research Council under his Department’s control to ensure that it remains free of political interference?

[Mr Willetts]

I am happy to give the assurance that we are committed to the Haldane principle and it is important that medical research remains subject to it. That is essential for all parts of the science family. I can do no better than repeat the Chancellor’s assurance that we will make sure that the money is not used for other things, and that if there is any change the vital, basic research that the MRC carries out is not jeopardised.

[Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con)]

7. What steps he is taking to ensure that small and medium-sized enterprises take on more apprentices.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

We have made it easier and quicker for small businesses to take on apprentices by simplifying the process for employers. We have introduced an apprenticeship grant for employers. The National Apprenticeship Service has a dedicated team to provide bespoke services for small businesses and we are implementing the key recommendations of the Jason Holt review.

[Rebecca Harris]

I thank the Secretary of State for his reply. I, like many hon. Members, am dedicated to promoting apprenticeships in my constituency, particularly in small and medium-sized businesses, but they are often very busy and hard to reach, so it is difficult to get across the message about what is available. Ironically, they are often the firms that would most benefit from an apprentice. Will the Secretary of State outline the specific measures available to promote apprenticeships and any support the Department can give hon. Members in doing so?

[Vince Cable]

May I first anticipate the House’s disappointment that I am answering this question, rather than my colleague, the Under-Secretary of State for Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock)? He is being a role model for our policy of shared parental leave and is currently nursing Humphrey Hancock, who was born a few days ago.

My hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) has seen the benefits of the growth of apprenticeships, which is one of the Government’s big success stories. The number has grown from 500 at the beginning of this Government to 870 at the latest count. My hon. Friend is right that there are particular obstacles for small business, but companies with fewer than 200 employees already take 80% of all the apprenticeships in the country. We are trying to improve the service. One of the latest developments is the introduction of a website to make it much easier to access the NAS and its services.

[Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab)]

I am sure the whole House will wish Humphrey a speedy recovery.

The Opposition are not at all disappointed that the Secretary of State has stepped into the breach. Although his Department has achieved some success on apprentices, the construction industry is still falling behind its own targets. If we are to get the investment programme under way, it is vital to increase it. Will the Secretary of State give that some attention and get cracking with it?

[Vince Cable]

I will. Indeed, at the beginning of the week I chaired a meeting of the construction industry’s council, which we have put together. Its members acknowledged that skills were one of their key constraints, one of the problems being that the construction industry has been through a very deep, cyclical depression, which has had a major knock-on effect on skills. We are now working with it to boost skills, so that the upswing in the industry that we are beginning to see is not impeded by the shortage of key people.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

8. What steps he is taking to support pubs.

[George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)]

14. What steps he is taking to support traditional local pubs.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

We are currently consulting on proposals to introduce a statutory code of practice and adjudicator for the pubs sector. The consultation closes tomorrow.

[John Glen]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. In assessing the possibility of a code and adjudicator, will he take account of the experience of my constituents Peter and Sara Strawson of the White Horse in Quidhampton, who, like many others, though accepting the challenges of local competition and changing patterns of consumption, maintain that Enterprise Inns signed them up to a lease on a false prospectus and then, with a combined wet and dry rent footing, made their business completely uneconomic and unsustainable?

[Vince Cable]

I think we all have such examples of publicans in our constituencies and it was that kind of experience that led to the Select Committee producing four reports on the subject. It also led to our seeking a voluntary code. In view of the lack of progress, we recommended a statutory code, on which we are now consulting. We have had about 6,000 replies, which is a remarkable response. I cannot yet assess the conclusions, but my hon. Friend’s example is fairly typical of many.

[George Hollingbery]

Like too many other landlords in Meon Valley, Angela Ryan, who until recently ran the White Hart pub in South Harting, has lost her battle to continue in business after facing unsustainable rent demands, again from Enterprise Inns. Will the Secretary of State assure me that he will do everything in his power to redress the balance between landlord and owner, so that such SMEs have a reasonable prospect of continuing in business and our rural communities may retain their valued pubs?

[Vince Cable]

My hon. Friend’s example reinforces the general point that I made a moment ago. I cannot pre-judge the outcome of the consultation and we have not yet studied the responses. The Government’s overriding objective is to achieve fair treatment for publicans in respect of rent and beer prices. I think that the mechanism that we have proposed will survive scrutiny.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that there was a huge Fair Deal For Your Local rally in Parliament recently. It was attended by Members from all parts of the House who support Labour’s view that a statutory code for pub companies must include a mandatory free-of-tie option to hardwire fairness into the system. Is a fairer distribution of risk and reward an objective of the Government’s regulation?

[Vince Cable]

It is an objective of our regulation to achieve a fair distribution of risk and reward. As I have said, the precise mechanism and whether we proceed with the adjudicator in the way that we have suggested very much depend on how we analyse the consultation. The results will of course be discussed in the House.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

Yesterday’s news about Punch Taverns’ unsustainable debt and its row with the committee set up by the Association of British Insurers shows that the securitised pubco scam is a disaster not just for local pubs but for the British economy. Will the Secretary of State listen to the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, the Federation of Small Businesses and the Forum of Private Business, all of which back Fair Deal For Your Local and the obvious solution, which is the market rent-only option?

[Vince Cable]

We have listened to those three bodies and to many other people, and we are sympathetic to their concern. However, the precise mechanism that is adopted—I am sorry to be repetitive—depends on the results of the consultation.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

9. What steps his Department is taking to help small and micro-businesses grow.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)]

I announced last week that we will extend the exemption from burdensome new regulation to firms with up to 50 staff, and that will continue after 2014. Our growth accelerator scheme has supported more than 6,000 small businesses with high growth potential. We are encouraging more businesses to exploit export opportunities, and UK Trade & Investment is on track to double the number of SMEs it supports to 50,000 by 2015.

[Mr Baron]

Although I welcome the Government’s initiatives to date, given the importance of small and micro-businesses to the economy will Ministers use their influence to push for further tax incentives to encourage growth and employment? After all, cash flow is king for such businesses and history suggests undeniably that financial payback does not take too long to come around.

[Michael Fallon]

As my hon. Friend knows, the Government are making the tax system in the United Kingdom the most competitive in the G20. In 2011, we reduced the small companies rate to 20%. More than 1 million employers will benefit from the new £2,000 employment allowance from next April and nearly 500,000 employers will pay no employer’s national insurance contributions at all from that date.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

10. What progress he has made on making shares in Royal Mail available to its employees; and if he will make a statement.

[Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)]

16. What progress he has made on making shares in Royal Mail available to its employees; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

We are designing an employee share scheme that will honour the commitment made by Parliament in 2011 that 10% of Royal Mail shares should be reserved for employees. We are still considering the details, but it is very much the Government’s intention to make the offer attractive to employees, while balancing the overall value for money for the Government and the interests of other stakeholders.

[Michael Fabricant]

John Lewis, under the inspired leadership of Andy Street, who I should declare is a friend of mine, is synonymous with quality and service. Does my right hon. Friend agree that John Lewis, which uses the mutual model, might provide an appropriate model for the privatisation of Royal Mail?

[Vince Cable]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, we are currently considering the way the privatisation proceeds, and we have committed to Parliament that 10% of shares will go to employees. There are different ways of doing that and we have not prejudged exactly how it will occur. I remind the hon. Gentleman that this is the largest worker share ownership in any privatisation that has occurred, and it will be the largest for several decades.

[Kris Hopkins]

More than 90% of BT’s employees registered to participate in shares when the company was privatised. Does my right hon. Friend agree that everybody in this House, and outside, should encourage as many Royal Mail employees as possible to participate in and benefit from shares from a sale?

[Vince Cable]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. We wish to work with employees, and particularly the union that represents them. My colleague the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), and I have regular conversations with that union, and wish it to be positively engaged with the share sale process.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State tell the House how much will be paid in commission to banks or handling agencies for the sale of those shares to people who are buying things that they actually already own?

[Vince Cable]

The process will be competitive, as is right, and designed to achieve value for money for the taxpayer. As the right hon. Gentleman will know, it is practice to enclose details of those fees in the prospectus, and he will see that in due course.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in congratulating all Royal Mail staff for producing a doubling of profits this year, and we send our best wishes to the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), for a speedy recovery.

The Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks, who I am surprised is not answering this question, is seen as a fire fighter in Government, but rather than putting out the fire at Royal Mail, he has lit the fuse and put the fire sale signs up. He is, of course, rushing that through to spare the blushes of his Chancellor, who is borrowing £245 billion more than he said in 2010 and is desperate for pre-election cash in the coffers. The Minister signed a letter in 2009 in which he said he was opposed to privatisation, so why are the Government now rushing a sell-off that is opposed by right-wing think-tanks, the unions, the National Federation of SubPostmasters, small businesses, the Liberal Democrats, and people up and down this country who will receive a poorer postal service as a result?

[Vince Cable]

The Opposition have a strange but perhaps rather revealing idea of speedy decision making. The process of bringing private capital into the Post Office started in 2008 under my Labour predecessor. It was one of our first pieces of legislation—I introduced it in the House, it was agreed, and we are now following through in an orderly way designed to get good value for the taxpayer and a good outcome for Royal Mail.

[David Wright (Telford) (Lab)]

11. What recent assessment he has made of the long-term prospects for high street businesses.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)]

High streets are changing and the Government are committed to helping communities adapt their high streets to those changes. We have taken action following the Portas review by lifting planning restrictions, doubling small business rate relief, and providing towns with a package of support to drive forward their local economy. I look forward to giving evidence to the Business, Innovation and Skills Select Committee inquiry into retail in due course.

[David Wright]

High streets obviously need to provide a diverse offer in order to succeed, and the provision of street markets and farmers markets are particularly important to many high streets. There is a significant problem in a number of areas because we cannot get road closure orders to allow such markets to go ahead. What work is the Department doing, together with the Department for Communities and Local Government, to ensure that markets thrive, and what will the Government do to develop a market strategy?

[Michael Fallon]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman, like other hon. Members, will support his local market. I had the pleasure of supporting Sevenoaks local market last month, and there is an initiative across the country—love your local market—in which I hope he is participating. I will look into the particular point he raises about highway closures.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

In my constituency, a number of businesses in the high street have unfortunately closed. If they go into liquidation, their employees receive pay arrears, holiday pay and notice pay, if necessary from the national insurance fund. If the business just ceases trading and is eventually struck off, its employees do not get pay arrears, holiday pay or notice pay. Will the Minister meet me to discuss that anomaly in the law?

[Michael Fallon]

I would be happy to do so, but I hope my hon. Friend will not be too gloomy about the state of the high street. He will know that, in the most recent year for which we have figures, some 22,900 store-based retailers opened and 21,000 closed—more stores were set up than were closed.[Official Report, 18 June 2013, Vol. 564, c. 3MC.]

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

Is it not time that we looked at the impact of business rates on the high street, and particularly at the glacial speed of appeals and revaluations?

[Michael Fallon]

My hon. Friend will know that we have doubled the small business rate relief for the past three and a half years, which has helped more than 500,000 businesses. In the Growth and Infrastructure Act 2013, we postponed the revaluation to give businesses more certainty—a larger number of them were forecast to lose under the revaluation than would have gained.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the prospects for our high streets would be a lot rosier if local authorities did more to encourage motorists into our town centres by reducing parking charges?

[Michael Fallon]

I agree with my hon. Friend. We must get the balance right. It is important that local authorities do not freeze trade out of their local high streets. One action we have taken following the Portas review is to encourage local authorities to look at the total local economy and ensure that there are not undue restrictions on encouraging people to come into the high street.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

12. What support his Department is providing to female entrepreneurs.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)]

Women play an important role in growing our economy. We commissioned the Women’s Business Council to investigate how we can help remove barriers and maximise women’s contribution to economic growth. Following its excellent report last week, the Government will publish an action plan this autumn that will improve web-based support for entrepreneurs. We will work with the British Bankers Association to improve women’s awareness of the financial support available.

[Mary Macleod]

If women set up businesses at the same rate as they do in the US, benefits of up to £42 billion could be delivered to the economy. When I recently organised Start-up Challenge seminars for women in my constituency, they were full of excellent, enthusiastic and dynamic women who were keen to be entrepreneurs. What more can we do to stretch out to those women and encourage more of them to be great entrepreneurs for the country?

[Michael Fallon]

If women were setting up and running new businesses at the same rate as men, we would have an extra 1 million female entrepreneurs in this country. Despite progress in recent years, women remain less likely than men to start a business, so we have more to do.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has recently made a number of welcome speeches in support of women in engineering, enterprise and the boardroom, but unfortunately, they are not matched by action from his Government. Why, for example, has the number of investments by the Aspire fund, which was set up specifically to support women-led businesses, fallen under his Government to a quarter of what it was under the previous Government?

[Michael Fallon]

Forty per cent. of start-up loans have been taken up by women, which is an important advance. In the two-month period from 1 March, 12% of FTSE 100 board appointments and 40% of FTSE 250 board appointments were secured by women.

[Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)]

13. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of his Department’s export week campaign.

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

18. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of his Department’s export week campaign.

[The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)]

Export week was launched by my colleague Lord Green in May and included over 80 events across the UK, attended by more than 3,600 businesses focusing on 20 high-growth markets.

[Christopher Pincher]

As chairman of the all-party group on Azerbaijan, I attended the Caspian oil and gas conference, where BP announced its further development of the Shah Deniz gas field. What action can the Government take with UK Trade & Investment further to expand British trade with Azerbaijan in order to address the concerns of the governor of Ganja, it’s second city, that, although German, Dutch and French companies are bidding for major infrastructure contracts there, no British companies are involved?

[Mr Willetts]

We are absolutely aware of the international export opportunities presented by major infrastructure projects and are strengthening the commercial role of our embassies in key target markets such as Azerbaijan to ensure that we secure a fair share of those contracts.

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

I attended one of the 80 events, in Derbyshire in the east midlands. There were fewer than 100 people there, and not one from my constituency. UK Trade & Investment has been given additional funding. Will my right hon. Friend explain what it is spending that funding on, and why it is not reaching out? It is all right exporting from the south of the country, but we need to look to the midlands and the north too.

[Mr Willetts]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right on the importance of reaching out to businesses in her constituency and across the midlands. Indeed, we are trying to strengthen the ability of chambers of commerce located in our key target markets to communicate with small and medium-sized enterprises back home. We are specifically helping smaller companies with the cost of going to their first international trade fair, as not enough of them take that important opportunity. We are seeing the benefits, with exports to target markets up by 49% in Brazil, up 130% in Russia, and up 60% in India.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

15. What types of projects will be eligible for funding from the green investment bank.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

The state aid approval obtained in relation to the green investment bank enables it to make investments on commercial terms across the following green sectors: offshore wind; waste processing and recycling and energy from waste; non-domestic energy efficiency; the green deal; biofuels for transport; biomass power; carbon capture and storage; marine energy; and renewable heat.

[David Mowat]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer, and I congratulate him on getting the bank operational so quickly. However, he will know that under the terms of the EU state aid clearance a number of low-carbon technologies were excluded, including nuclear supply chain and solar, and that carbon capture and storage was regarded as low priority. Does he have any intention of going back to the EU and asking for the clearance to be amended, so that the bank can more closely follow the purpose set out in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013?

[Vince Cable]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for acknowledging the progress we have made. Our first priority is to ensure that the institution makes good use of the £3 billion of Government capital that is now being deployed alongside private capital. We are making good progress in that respect—something in the order of £700 million has been committed. He raised the matter of a wider scope for the bank. He anticipates the answer; we would have to go back to the European Commission and seek state aid approval. I do not currently have any plans to do that.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

17. What the timetable is for the establishment of the business bank.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

The business bank will tackle long-standing market failures in the provision of finance to small and medium-sized businesses. I expect the business bank to be fully operational in 2014, subject to EU state aid approval. Its programmes are being operated from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills as an interim arrangement to help businesses straight away, including the £300 million investment programme launched in April.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer, but in December 2012 he told this House that the business bank was already established. In fact, as he has just said, it is really operating with a re-named group of civil servants from his own Department. What assurance do we have that it will become a bank by 2014, or ever?

[Vince Cable]

I do not know whether the hon. Lady is suggesting somehow short-circuiting the whole state aid approval process. The last I heard, the Labour party was committed to the rules of the European Union. If it wants to break them, it should perhaps make that explicit. In the meantime, we operate within the rules and that means we have a team of professional people—they are not civil servants; they are from the financial sector—who are doing an admirable job and are already out in the market with a heavily oversubscribed offering which we hope to see deployed very quickly.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

19. What discussions he has had on taking forward the recommendations of Lord Heseltine that regeneration funding be devolved to local enterprise partnerships.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)]

I have regular discussions. As our response to Lord Heseltine’s report made clear, the Government will be creating a single local growth fund for local enterprise partnerships from April 2015, which will include housing, transport and elements of skills funding. The size and content of the single local growth fund will be confirmed at the spending review.

[Diana Johnson]

On 18 March, the Treasury accepted Lord Heseltine’s proposals on devolving regeneration funding to local enterprise partnerships from 2015, but in late April the Business Secretary briefed journalists that we will not be going down that road. Will the Minister tell us whether the Business Secretary backs the Government’s plans to implement Lord Heseltine’s recommendations by 2015?

[Michael Fallon]

My right hon. Friend certainly does so. It is up to local leaders in each local enterprise partnership to identify their growth priorities and to set them out in their local economic strategies, and those growth strategies might well include regeneration. The hon. Lady will know that Humber has the largest enterprise zone in England. It has already had some £50 million of assistance from the regional growth fund and is well placed to exploit the opportunities arising from offshore renewable industries, as I saw when I met the partnership there earlier this year.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his Departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

My Department plays a key role in supporting the rebalancing of the economy through business to deliver growth while increasing skills and learning.

[Andy McDonald]

Given the importance of further education colleges, such as the award-winning and hugely ambitious Middlesbrough college in my constituency, in helping people acquire the skills they need for local job markets, will the Minister explain to the House what work his Department has done to encourage local enterprise partnerships to work more closely with colleges?

[The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)]

The Department has given a clear remit to local enterprise partnerships to work on raising skills in their areas. It is obviously important that they work with further education colleges, and in our legislation in 2011 we removed much of the red tape and regulation that had prevented further education colleges from contributing to that.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

T2. The Secretary of State is right to say that he cannot comment during the consultation and to urge as many people as possible to take part in the BIS consultation on pubcos by tomorrow, but does he agree that the evidence supplied to him must be accurate and honest? Given that in the past week we have had a dishonest and untruthful statement to MPs and the Select Committee from both the chief executive of Enterprise Inns and the chief executive of the lobbying organisation for pubcos, the British Beer and Pub Association—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. Topical Questions must be brief. The hon. Gentleman has had one opportunity already. There is a lot to get through and there are other colleagues to consider.

[Vince Cable]

I pay tribute to the work that my hon. Friend has done on the pubs issue. He has played a significant part in influencing the House’s thinking on it. I am sure he appreciates, however, that I would get into difficulty if I started talking about serious people in the industry being dishonest and untruthful. I will not go down that road.

[Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)]

In the US, small business Saturday takes place immediately after Thanksgiving, on one of its busiest shopping days of the year, and celebrates small businesses’ contribution to local economies and encourages people to shop in them. It has proved to be very successful. A grass-roots movement of organisations, including the Federation of Small Businesses, representing hundreds of thousands of small businesses, has formed to make a UK small business Saturday happen later this year. Will the Secretary of State lend his support to this initiative, which aims to give a boost to the country’s small businesses?

[Vince Cable]

I will do whatever I can to boost the cause of small business. I was with the Federation of Small Businesses at the beginning of the week addressing many of those issues. In my earlier answers, I explained what we were doing for small business in respect of trade, apprenticeships and the business bank, and the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), has talked about deregulation. It is a very wide agenda and we are delivering those aims.

[Mr Umunna]

One of the things that small businesses find most objectionable is the perceived preferential treatment that they see some large companies getting from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, in contrast to the heavy-handed treatment that small businesses sometimes receive. If HMRC is to clamp down on tax avoidance by large companies, which the Secretary of State says is a Government priority, transparency is key. Under the Companies Act 2006, large companies are obliged to disclose details of foreign subsidiaries to Companies House, but it appears that the latter is not properly enforcing these requirements. In March 2011, the Business Secretary said that he would carry out—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. What we need is a question, with a question mark—just one sentence. We have a lot to get through.

[Mr Umunna]

Why has the formal investigation that the Secretary of State promised not taken place?

[Vince Cable]

It has happened; I have conducted it. The problem is very simple: roughly 4 million accounts are registered with Companies House and scrutinising all of them in detail is difficult. I have asked Companies House—it is now doing this—to ensure that the returns of the top-350 companies are analysed in detail for errors. If there are errors, our experience so far has been that they are very speedily corrected.

[Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD)]

T3. Does the Secretary of State welcome Stockport council’s fund to assist private businesses in setting up apprenticeship organisations and schemes? Next time he comes to Stockport, will he agree to meet some of them?

[Vince Cable]

I have visited Stockport on several occasions. It has been an excellent council over the years, and my right hon. Friend works effectively with it and on Stockport’s behalf. I always try on my regional visits to meet apprentices and small companies providing them, and I would be happy to do that next time I come to Stockport, which I think will be quite soon.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

T6. The Secretary of State will have had representations from high energy-intensive users in manufacturing, such as the chemical industry in my constituency, about rising energy prices and energy policy and their impact on its competitiveness. Has he raised those concerns with his colleague the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change?

[Vince Cable]

The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues have quite rightly raised this issue on many occasions. There is an issue of price competitiveness for industries such as steel and aluminium, and we have addressed their concerns. He will know that the Treasury has funded a compensation scheme. We have been through a consultation process. Payments will be made quickly in respect of the European Union emissions trading scheme. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has also made a commitment to ensuring that the electricity market review implications do not fall on energy-intensive industries.

[Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)]

T4. It is one thing the Government not following through on their promises to tackle plastic waste in this country, but what on earth was my right hon. Friend doing complaining to the EU about Italy’s plans to ban or phase out the use of single-use plastic bags, and why was the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs not even consulted, given that it is one of its policy areas?

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)]

The Italian proposal would allow for only biodegradable bags, so would discriminate against British businesses that sell similar recyclable or other forms of degradable bag—for example, oxo-degradable plastic bags, with which I am sure my hon. Friend is familiar.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

T8. If the Secretary of State finds himself before the Star Chamber, will he bear in mind that unemployment in the west midlands is rising and the rate of employment is falling? Will he therefore resist any cuts that further threaten the growth potential of small businesses and research and development across the west midlands region?

[Vince Cable]

I am frequently in the west midlands; I was in Coventry last week discussing these issues with the local enterprise partnership. My understanding is that there has been rapid growth in private sector employment in the west midlands and many other parts of the country, and, as the hon. Gentleman will have seen from yesterday’s figures, unemployment is still falling.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

T7. The late payment of commercial debt regulations provide for a 60-day payment period, unless agreed and not grossly unfair. Will Ministers consider a longstop date of 90 days to give small businesses certainty?

[Michael Fallon]

I know that my hon. Friend has continued to raise the case of Mr and Mrs Langstaff in his constituency. The “Insurance: Conduct of Business” rules require insurers to handle claims promptly, and redress is available through the Financial Ombudsman Service if they do not do so. I note that a number of insurance companies have now signed the prompt payment code.

[Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)]

What assessment has the Minister made of the take-up of post-24 advanced learning loans and the potential impact on further education colleges’ finances?

[Mr Willetts]

We are absolutely committed to ensuring that such loans are taken up. We are very much looking forward to ensuring that they help to spread training opportunities for adult learning, to which we have a clear commitment.

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

I know that my right hon. Friend is aware of the concern about the future of northern museums, including the Museum of Science and Industry. Will BIS Ministers discuss with colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport how best we can protect the future of our science museums, which are so important in encouraging young people into careers in science?

[Mr Willetts]

We absolutely understand the importance of science museums and the communication work that they undertake, and of course we recognise their significant role.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

A report from Sheffield Hallam university shows that Merseyside’s local economy will lose a staggering £847 million—that is, two years and five months’ worth of economic growth—as a result of the Government’s cuts to welfare support. What discussions are Ministers having with colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions about the impact on regional growth?

[Vince Cable]

We do not recognise those numbers. There is a significant resurgence of activity in many successful companies in Merseyside, as there is in the rest of the economy.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

The resurgence of the motor manufacturing industry has had a tremendously positive effect on the supply chain across the west midlands, but further growth in that supply chain is now being challenged by the lack of available skills. Will my right hon. Friend tell me what more he can do to address that pressing problem?

[Michael Fallon]

This is a pressing problem right across the automotive industry and other engineering industries, and it has to be attacked on a number of fronts, including through more investment by the Department for Education to encourage more children to take up science, maths and technology, and through industry itself getting more involved in the employer ownership pilots and opening up its premises so that people can see the kinds of rewarding career that are now available in manufacturing and engineering.

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

I am sure the Secretary of State will have noted that, while unemployment fell by 5,000 this week across the UK, it rose in the north-east of England by 4,000 to 131,000. That means that 10.1% of our working population, and 24.9% of our young people, are now unemployed. Will he meet me and other colleagues to discuss how we can alleviate that individual suffering and unleash the potential of the north-east economy?

[Vince Cable]

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that there are particular problems in the north-east of England, but they are far from new. I was in his constituency a few weeks ago when I visited Durham and Tyneside. The great potential of the north-east is that it is a major manufacturing area of the UK with a strong export intensity. If we can achieve the rebalancing of the economy, as we are determined to do, the north-east could be one of the main beneficiaries. I am happy to meet him to talk further about that.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

The Government are having a really successful run-up to this year’s G8; $4.5 billion was pledged for global malnutrition last Saturday and there has been a highly successful science summit this week. Will the Science Minister update the House with further details of the science summit?

[Mr Willetts]

We had an excellent summit of the G8 Science Ministers at the Royal Society yesterday. We agreed that new global challenges such as antibiotic resistance needed to be tackled, and we committed ourselves to the publication of research and data that are publicly funded.

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

A delegation from the Confederation of Indian Industry visited the UK this week. What is the Secretary of State doing to support economic partnerships between Britain and India, and how does he envisage their driving growth in the UK?

[Vince Cable]

The Confederation of Indian Industry was in the Department at the beginning of this week to make the case for the deepening of the relationship, and that is proceeding well. Unfortunately, we are starting from a low base, as Britain’s share in the Indian market is not as great as it could be. The one really big success story is Indian investment in the UK, which is growing rapidly. That includes our largest manufacturing company, Tata, which is highly successful and a very valuable corporate citizen. We are doing all we can to develop that relationship.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

Further to the question from the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech), and given the importance that this Government have placed on science, is it the Department’s intention to play an important role, in conjunction with Ministers from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, in securing the future of the three northern museums in the Science Museum Group, particularly the National Media museum in Bradford, which is crucial to the local economy in the Bradford district?

[Mr Willetts]

We understand the importance of those museums. They are the responsibility of DCMS, and that Department is well aware of the significant role that they play, particularly in attracting young people and getting them interested in science and technology.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

Earlier this year, my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) and I decided to use a survey to investigate zero-hours contracts. The Secretary of State has now followed us. Hopefully I can help by asking him whether he will now look into the situation of the 37,000 people on zero-hours contracts whom the Government estimate to be working in the care sector in the north-west.

[Vince Cable]

We do indeed have anecdotes about abusive practices in that area. We also have a lot of other anecdotes to show that the system works very well for a large number of workers and companies. I am not jumping to any conclusions; I am just trying to gather the facts. I should add that the zero-hours contract system continued under 13 years of the Labour Government and that no Labour Minister thought that there was a problem with that.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for Universities and Science for his visit to the university of Worcester last week. Does he agree that the magnificent new library, the Hive, which was delivered in conjunction with local city and county councils, is a shining example of creative collaboration between universities and the local government sector, which other universities should follow?

[Mr Willetts]

It was an excellent visit, and the initiative for a new joint university and city library was indeed striking. It is an initiative from which other cities across the country can learn.

[Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will know of the campaign launched by the Cutlers company, supported by the Sheffield Star and with wide support across the city, concerning the threat posed by the red tape challenge to controls over the use of the name Sheffield. In response to the campaign, the Deputy Prime Minister has indicated that the protected name status for Sheffield will be retained. Is that correct?

[Michael Fallon]

I will certainly have a look at that. It was a point made to me on Tuesday when I had the pleasure of addressing the stainless steel annual conference and celebrating the 100th anniversary of Harry Brearley’s invention of stainless steel.

Walsall Gala Baths

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)

- Hansard - - Excerpts

I rise to present a petition on behalf of the users of Walsall Gala baths. A petition in similar terms has been signed by 1,938 people.

The petition states:

The Petition of the users of Walsall Gala Baths,

Declares that the petitioners do not wish to see the closure of the Walsall Gala Baths as they believe that it is important to have swimming facilities in the town centre. Especially and in particular, we do not wish to lose the only brine pool that is centrally located, well used and much appreciated for its medical benefits to many of its users.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take all possible steps to encourage Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council to consider the objections of the local residents.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.

[P001183]

Global Food System

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)

- Hansard - - Excerpts

I rise to present a petition that has been collected by Sacred Heart Catholic voluntary academy, in Mere close in Leicester. A similar petition, with 1,000 signatures, was presented to Downing street this morning. The petition has been organised by Catherine McMillan and Catherine Hayles and the year 6 students, who seized on the idea and pushed it through. I also want to mention the headmaster, Gerry Hirst, and the chairman of governors, Father Lally.

The petition declares:

The Petition of a Citizen of the UK,

Declares that the Petitioner believes that the food system is failing the poorest people and that the government should champion aid for small-scale farmers, especially women, to help them access markets and increase their income, bargaining power and voice in decisions; further that the government should champion checks on the power of global food companies, requiring them to report on the lobbying they do and their impacts on human rights.

The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of Commons does all it can to encourage the Government to take such action.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.

[P001184]

Business of the House

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

10:30

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House give us the business for next week?

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

The business for next week is as follows:

Monday 17 June—Second Reading of the Pensions Bill.

Tuesday 18 June—Motion to approve a European document relating to the reform of the common agricultural policy, followed by motion to approve a European document relating to enhanced co-operation and a financial transaction tax and documents relating to economic and monetary union, followed by motion to approve a European document relating to the European elections 2014, followed by a general debate on Sudan. The subject for this debate was nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

Wednesday 19 June—I expect my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to update the House following the G8 summit, followed by Opposition day (3rd allotted day). There will be a debate on the topic of the economic and social importance of regional arts and the creative industries, followed by a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject to be announced.

Thursday 20 June—A general debate on carers, followed by a general debate on the east coast main line franchise. The subjects for these debates were nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

The provisional business for the week commencing 24 June will include:

Monday 24 June—Second Reading of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

Tuesday 25 June—Opposition Day (4th allotted day). There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject to be announced.

Wednesday 26 June—I would like to remind the House that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make a statement on the spending review, followed by Second Reading of the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill, followed by motions relating to the hybrid Bill procedure.

Thursday 27 June—Business to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 20 June will be:

Thursday 20 June—A debate on the sixth report of the Justice Committee on interpreting and translation services and the Applied Language Solutions contract, followed by a debate on the UK contribution to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

[Ms Eagle]

In the light of recent revelations about the Chair of the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, may I welcome your decision, Mr Speaker, to write to the Chair of the Standards and Privileges Committee? It is surely right for you to ask whether Chairs of Select Committees should have commercial interests in those sectors covered by their Committee— but it is not just MPs who can have an influence on Government.

I understand that on Tuesday evening, the Prime Minister’s Australian election guru, Lynton Crosby, addressed the Tory parliamentary party, with the Chief Whip and the Prime Minister in attendance, on his strategy for the general election. He is having a clear influence on Government, but we do not know who Lynton Crosby’s corporate clients are. We do know, however, that his company, Crosby Textor, has long lobbied lucratively for big tobacco. We know, too, that plain packaging for cigarettes suddenly disappeared from this year’s Queen’s Speech, despite strong hints that it would be included. So does the Leader of the House agree with me that for the sake of transparency, lobbyists at the heart of No. 10 should publish their interests and their client lists? We have already had one scandal involving prime ministerial appointments at No. 10; surely we do not need another.

I understand that Government meetings have already taken place to discuss the contents of the lobbying Bill. Labour has been offering cross-party talks to find a solution for three years. Why does the Leader of the House not take up our offer? Will he will arrange for pre-legislative scrutiny, and when can we expect to see the Bill?

At the Coming Year in Parliament conference on Tuesday, the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) jumped the gun by announcing that on 5 July the first private Member’s Bill to be discussed would be the EU referendum Bill tabled by the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton). [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] I thought they might like that, Mr. Speaker. Normally it is the job of the Member promoting a Bill to decide on the day for Second Reading, but the cat is now well and truly out of the bag. Will the Leader of the House confirm the obvious—that the Bill is actually a Conservative party handout?

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Yes!

[Ms Eagle]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, but let us see what the Leader of the House says.

Will the Leader of the House also assure me that the hon. Member for Stockton South will at least be consulted on the parliamentary strategy that Conservative party managers will be pursuing in his name? Is not the real purpose of the Bill to persuade the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay and 100 of his colleagues to stop writing letters to the Prime Minister? Does this not show that his party is more concerned with pursuing partisan interests than with pursuing the national interest?

Over the last week, we have seen a bleak picture emerging of an increasingly divided Britain. New figures from Public Health England reveal that thousands more people are dying prematurely in the north than in the south. The shocking variations show that someone living in Manchester is twice as likely to die early as someone living in Wokingham. Moreover, a report published by the TUC this week shows that wages have fallen by nearly 8%. This comes at a time when prices are rising and people are suffering unprecedented cuts in their living standards. The regional differences are shocking, with the north-west and the south-west seeing pay packets shrink by more than 10%. The Chancellor used to say “We’re all in this together”, but those figures, added to his millionaires’ tax cut, make that statement laughable. Will the Leader of the House schedule a debate on divided Britain, to take place in Government time?

This week, the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) added his request for a leadership contest to the growing pile in the 1922 Committee’s files. Likening the Tories to passengers in an aeroplane, he said that they could either “do something about” the Prime Minister or

“sit back, watch the in-flight movies and wait for the inevitable.”

I have been wondering what movies members of the Cabinet might be watching while waiting for the inevitable to arrive. “Eyes Wide Shut”, perhaps? “Clueless”? “Les Miserables”? Or perhaps they have just been instructed to watch “The Wizard of Oz”.

Luckily for the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary took the opportunity to lecture him about his “motives and values” last night, and his fellow Bullingdon boy Boris Johnson rushed to undermine him by calling him a “girly swot”. As a self-proclaimed “girly swot”, I remind the Mayor of London that being called a woman and clever is not an insult. Indeed, is not the truth that if the Prime Minister had a few more “girly swots” in the Cabinet, he would not be in the mess that he is in now?

[Mr Lansley]

I thank the shadow Leader of the House for her response. Let me begin by echoing her expression of support for your letter to the Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee, Mr. Speaker—not least because I think that we in the House of Commons want consideration of the relationship between Members’ interests and their responsibilities to proceed on the basis of advice from the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards and the Standards and Privileges Committee, whose task is to secure those standards in the House. However, I also think it important for all of us in recent weeks to have recognised the importance of understanding not only what the rules say, but the spirit behind those rules. I think that if every Member of Parliament lives by the spirit as well as the letter of the rules, we will avoid what might otherwise be excessive and unduly intrusive rule making on what Members should and should not do.

The hon. Lady asked me about a number of matters relating to the Conservative party. I remind her that I am here as Leader of the House, and I speak here on behalf of the Government. Lynton Crosby is not in the Government or an adviser to the Government; he is an adviser to the Conservative party, and I am not therefore responsible here for his activities.

We will make announcements in due course on the introduction of the lobbying Bill to reform third-party influence in the political system. As the hon. Lady will know, the aspects of it relating to a register of lobbyists were the subject of earlier scrutiny with the benefit of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee response, which was not wholly supportive of the original proposals. That has given the Government an opportunity to consider these matters further, and that is the basis on which we will make further decisions and bring this Bill forward.

What the hon. Lady said on the EU referendum Bill might have led people to get things slightly wrong. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) is in charge of this Bill, and nobody thinks otherwise. As far as the business is concerned, I am looking forward on, I think, Wednesday of next week to having full details from the Members in charge of all the private Members’ Bills of what their intentions are, including on the timing of the Bills.

The hon. Lady raised a point about Public Health England. The data it has used serve to illustrate the tragic divide in terms of mortality between different parts of the country, and they are, essentially, the same data that we inherited in 2010; there is, effectively, no difference. What is deeply worrying, and what is at the heart of this, is that there is not just a divide between, for example, Manchester and Wokingham; there is also a divide between Manchester and Birmingham. The simple fact is that more can be done in many parts of our country to reduce premature mortality and morbidity.

When I was Secretary of State for Health, we sought to address that through the establishment of Public Health England and especially the transfer of public health resources into the hands of local authorities. The hon. Lady did not welcome the increase in resources for local authorities, relative to those that were previously deployed by primary care trusts, to support public health preventive measures. Putting that money in the hands of local authorities will enable them to make an impact on what we know makes the biggest difference to health, which is lifestyle. It is not just about how much we spend on NHS services, because Wokingham gets the least cash per head from the NHS budget, but it has some of the best morbidity and mortality outcomes. It is also about trying to make sure we change people’s lifestyles. On that we are agreed. There are basic things like the social grading of health, relative deprivation, the extent to which people are in work, the extent to which they have good parenting, the quality of education, and the quality of environment. Those are the things that make a difference, and that is, I hope, where our local authorities will use these powers to very good effect.

May I gently thank the hon. Lady for enabling me to announce one of next week’s Opposition day debates, and also say that I hope that, for the benefit of the House, the Opposition will give the House a little more notice of such debates? Next week, for example, Members should be able to see on Tuesday’s Order Paper what the subjects for debate will be on Wednesday. That was not the case this week, and I hope the Opposition—I say this in the spirit of co-operation that we are often able to enjoy—will in future be able to make that possible.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. As usual at business questions, a great many colleagues are seeking to catch my eye, but I remind the House that after this exchange there is to be a statement by the Economic Secretary on the Royal Bank of Scotland, followed by a debate under the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq war, which is significantly subscribed. Therefore, there is a premium today on brevity from Back and Front Benches alike.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

We are in the middle of a consultation on the draft environmental statement for High Speed 2; the Department for Transport is defending itself in the Court of Appeal on HS2; the Information Commissioner has decided that it is in the public interest for the Major Projects Authority’s report in detail on HS2 to be published; and there is an adverse National Audit Office report on the financing of aspects of the project. Surely introducing a preparation Bill giving unlimited spending power at this stage is premature. Will the Leader of the House seriously consider rethinking the provisional business on 26 June, and putting off Second Reading of the Bill until we have satisfactory outcomes to those four matters?

[Mr Lansley]

I know how strongly my right hon. Friend feels, not least on behalf of her constituents, about this matter and I know that she will assiduously examine the legislation as it comes through. I remind her that Second Reading of the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill is exactly that: it is about giving parliamentary authority. I believe the official Opposition share the view that such projects should be enabled to go ahead, and the spending authority the Bill provides will enable that to happen. Given the importance that we all attach to HS2 as a project for long-term economic growth in this country, I think it is important that the House proceeds on the basis I have outlined.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

Now that the Backbench Business Committee has reconvened, will the Leader of the House work with us to redesign the e-petitions system, so that it becomes much clearer who is being petitioned and what an e-petition can realistically achieve?

[Mr Lansley]

I again congratulate the hon. Lady and all the members of the Committee on their re-election, which is a vote of confidence in the Backbench Business Committee. One of the things I hope we can achieve—not least in planning in this Session for subsequent implementation—is a petitions process that builds on the success so far. My predecessor in the Parliament, my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young), was able to introduce, through the Government e-petition system, a measure that has dramatically improved the public’s perception of how Parliament responds to the issues that matter to them, as evidenced in the 10th audit of engagement published by the Hansard Society. There were negative aspects outlined in that audit, but one of the positive aspects was that more of the public feel that Parliament is debating the issues that matter to them. The hon. Lady is right, however: we have a Government petitions system and some parliamentary scrutiny of that, but I think the public want to know that they are petitioning Parliament, while at the same time engaging an active response from Government, and I hope we can agree that.

[Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con)]

The whole country was shocked and appalled at the grotesque and evil murder of Drummer Lee Rigby. May we have a statement on what financial provision is being made by the Ministry of Defence for his widow and son?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend asks a question with which Members across the House will sympathise. I am glad I can assure him that the widow and child of Drummer Lee Rigby will receive financial support, as do the families of all those who have died in the service of this country. That may include a widow’s pension, a bereavement grant, payments via the armed forces compensation scheme, a survivor’s guaranteed income payment and child payments. I hope that reassures my hon. Friend and others.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

On 3 July, I will be hosting a dinner at the Birmingham botanical gardens celebrating 60 years of continuous representation by women MPs of Birmingham, Edgbaston —a record not equalled by any other constituency in the country. May we have a debate in Government time on how all the political parties can promote greater participation by women, because we are still far from achieving parity?

[Mr Lansley]

I am glad that there is to be such an opportunity, and may I say, at the risk of flattering the hon. Lady overmuch, it is not just that Birmingham, Edgbaston has been represented by women but that it has been very ably represented? That will get me in trouble at the next election.

The hon. Lady makes a fair point. The subject has been discussed in business questions before and the shadow Leader of the House has rightly raised it. I hope that there will be opportunities for such a debate. Perhaps the Backbench Business Committee will consider it, if the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) and other Members invite the Committee to do so.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

May we have a debate on the mis-selling of interest rate swap products by the commercial banks and, specifically, on why tailored business loans have not been included in the Financial Standards Authority—now the Financial Conduct Authority—review, despite there being similar products and similar evidence of mis-selling, which has been hugely damaging to small businesses up and down the country?

[Mr Lansley]

I will, if I may, take the opportunity to talk to my right hon. and hon. Friends at Her Majesty’s Treasury about that and, through them, to the Financial Conduct Authority, which, as my hon. Friend says, is undertaking investigations. But it is important for the House to recognise the degree of concern of consumers about this matter, and I hope that I get a decent reply.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on why demand for food banks has tripled over the past year and on what is likely to happen in this coming year?

[Mr Lansley]

One of the reasons is that this Government permitted the advertisement of food banks in job centres, something the previous Government did not do. Giving people access to information should not in itself be regarded as wrong.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend resist a futile debate on the subject of Mr Lynton Crosby not only because he is, to anybody who knows him, a man of unimpeachable integrity, but because he is not a Government employee, not a civil servant, not paid out of public funds, not subject to the ministerial code and not subject to the civil service code, unlike the special advisers appointed by the Labour party who were empowered to give instructions to civil servants, instead of Ministers?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend who, as Chair of the Public Administration Committee, demonstrates that he understands these points extremely well and is able to answer the shadow Leader of the House’s point better than I could.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

Will the Leader of the House consider a debate on pension contributions in Northern Ireland? It is well known, as per my early-day motion 176, that people in Northern Ireland who were aged 14 and 15 and working between 1947 and 1957 paid national insurance contributions, but that these did not count towards their pension, as this is calculated by taking account of contributions made from the age of 16 upwards.

[That this House recognises that people working in Northern Ireland at ages 14 and 15 between 1947 and 1957 paid national insurance contributions but that these do not count towards their pension as this is calculated by taking into account contributions made from age 16 only; acknowledges that this impacts Northern Ireland disproportionately as the working age in Great Britain changed from 14 to 15 in 1947, 10 years before it was changed in Northern Ireland; and calls on the Government to look at measures to address this discrepancy.]

I have taken this matter up with the Northern Ireland Executive, who say that it is not their responsibility and that it is a matter for the Department for Work and Pensions. There is an issue of equality here that deserves a debate in Parliament.

[Mr Lansley]

I am interested in the point that the hon. Lady makes and will, of course, ask my hon. Friends at the Department to respond to her. It may also be something that she wishes to raise with them at DWP questions on 1 July. She will understand completely that the Pensions Bill—I have announced the debate on that— includes the creation of the single-tier pension, which will be transformative in terms of people’s expectations of a secure income through the state pension in retirement.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

Has my right hon. Friend seen my early-day motion 239 regarding the obscene behaviour of Thames Water, which has increased its profits and charged the consumer inflation-busting prices, but does not pay its corporation tax?

[That this House is disappointed that Thames Water, despite having an annual turnover of £1.8 billion, making a £549 million profit and awarding its chief executive a bonus of £274,000 in the last financial year, did not pay any corporation tax due to paying off debts to holding companies; notes that Thames Water increased its customers' bills by 6.7 per cent last year; further notes that Thames Water plans to increase water bills by a further £80 this year to pay for the Thames Tideway Tunnel; believes that Thames Water's 13 million customers should not pay more for water bills to make up for its bad financial management; and calls for Thames Water to pay tax on the real value of its profits, to stop bonus payouts until then, and for profits to be handed back to consumers for lower prices.]

May we have a statement on that, and will my right hon. Friend lobby the Treasury to introduce a windfall tax on greedy water companies and to pass the money raised back to the consumer?

[Mr Lansley]

I have seen the early-day motion to which my hon. Friend refers. He knows, as hon. Members will understand, that HMRC is vigilant in ensuring that companies, including Thames Water, pay the taxes that they are legally obliged to pay. In this context, I would add one further point that it is important to bear in mind. The benefits from investment relief and tax relief enjoyed by water and sewerage companies to encourage infrastructure investment are passed on to customers through lower bills via the regulator Ofwat’s five-yearly price reviews. Those reviews, if they are also vigilant, can ensure that those benefits do reach consumers.

[Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on loan sharks and the increasing number of payday loan companies that are springing up in our communities, and an explanation of why the Government are failing to control them? Could it be that one of them is bankrolling the Tory party?

[Mr Lansley]

No, I do not think the hon. Gentleman is right about that at all. The evidence is to the contrary. The Government are serious about this. That is why we announced in March a strong action plan with immediate and longer-term measures relating to evidence of abuse of payday loans, which is not to say that such short-term loans are wrong, but they must not be abusive or harm consumers. One of the things that we therefore wait to find out is whether the Office of Fair Trading intends to refer the matter to the Competition Commission.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

Is it possible to have a debate on capping welfare spending? I personally believe that the best way to do it is to cap benefits at the level of the average wage in this country, but it appears that others in the House believe that pensioners should be the ones who are capped. Pensioners in my constituency are very concerned to hear that.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We must take measures to ensure that we are fair. We have seen in the latest data that people in work, including and perhaps specifically in the private sector, have had very limited increases in their pay. Working-age benefits should therefore reflect such constraint. The Labour party, however, appears determined to allow welfare payments to balloon. The Opposition did not support us on that cap on welfare benefits, and their view appears to be that all the constraint on spending should be borne by pensioners. If they were to abandon the triple lock and do it that way, it would mean a £234 cut in the basic state pension. There are 11.5 million pensioners in this country who will be aghast at the thought that that is the proper policy to pursue.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

On fairness and wages, the Institute for Fiscal Studies confirmed yesterday that post-2010 a significant fall in average real hourly wages has occurred, so may we have a statement from the Chancellor on why he thinks that since April 2013 average earnings, including bonuses, have shot up by 5.8% in the financial sector? Maybe the Chancellor could tell us whether this has anything to do with the top rate of tax being cut from 50p to 45p in April.

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman should know that the broadest shoulders are bearing the greatest burden and that in every year of this Parliament the richest people in this country have been paying an increasing proportion of the overall tax burden. He should also know—the Chancellor will, I know, take every opportunity to make this clear—that we are therefore focusing the help that we can give on those with lower incomes, which is why 24 million basic rate taxpayers will be £700 better off next year than they were under Labour, specifically as a result of the measures to increase the personal tax allowance.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

May we have a debate on the British overseas territories? Quite rightly and reasonably, the Prime Minister wants all the British overseas territories to sign the OECD convention on tax transparency and information. It would be wholly unreasonable for countries such as Bermuda to frustrate this commitment to greater tax transparency. Surely overseas territories cannot claim the privilege of being British and then fail to co-operate on tax evasion.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, with the G8 summit happening in the days ahead. I hope the Prime Minister will be able to report to the House next Wednesday on that, and I hope he will be able to report on unprecedented co-operation internationally in eliminating tax evasion and reducing abuse and avoidance of tax internationally through international mechanisms. I hope that will include British overseas territories. I know that Bermuda has reiterated, including this morning, its wish to form part of what is an unprecedented international effort to tackle international tax avoidance.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

In a week when we learn that three of the science museums in the north are under threat, may we have a major debate on the overweening, unhealthy dominance of London and the south-east, which is sapping the life-blood out of the other cities and other regions in this country?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman was here last week and will have heard some of the exchanges on that point. Colleagues on both sides of the House have set out how strongly they feel about the contribution made by some of our national museums, particularly those relating to science and technology, railways and coal mining. Of course, his persuasion and influence no doubt encouraged Opposition Front Benchers to choose the contribution of the creative arts in the regions as the subject for the Opposition day debate next week.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

As we approach the first anniversary of the wonderful London 2012 Olympics, may we have a debate on what more can be done to strengthen the position of sports facilities and playing fields in the planning system? The Hyde Park Olympic Legacy Group in my constituency is campaigning to retain a field but finding it frustrating, so this is an issue that we should discuss.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I hope that we are all actively pursuing the sporting legacy. I know that is something that Lord Coe is doing, leading from the Cabinet Office. In my area—I hope that this is true for others—we are working together, through the sports partnerships, to try to maximise the sporting legacy of the Olympics and Paralympics. My hon. Friend raises an interesting point about access to facilities. I think that some of our legislation, including that relating to assets of community value, will make a considerable difference. He will have an opportunity to raise the matter when Ministers from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport answer questions next Thursday.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Recently there have been a number of examples of damaging conflicts between police and crime commissioners and chief constables, the most worrying of which has been in Gwent, where the PCC effectively sacked the chief constable. May we have a debate in Government time on whether it is appropriate for PCCs to involve themselves in operational police matters?

[Mr Lansley]

I am sorry to hear about the case in Gwent, although I do not know the circumstances and cannot comment on it directly. In my county, I am pleased to say, the police and crime commissioner and the chief constable are working together very effectively. It is clear that that should rest on the chief constable and the police service understanding that the police and crime commissioner has a democratic mandate to set priorities and strategy and allocate resources, and they should respect that. At the same time, police and crime commissioners, like the police authorities that preceded them, should respect the police’s responsibility to take charge of operational matters.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

With the sixth fastest household growth rate in the whole country, the borough of Kettering has many new residential developments that have unadopted roads. There is effectively no legal mechanism whereby the local authority can force developers to develop the roads to an adoptable standard. Unless they are adopted, there are no parking controls, no proper street lighting and so on. May we have a statement from the Department for Transport on the legal mechanisms it could make available to local authorities to get roads up to adoptable standards?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who makes an interesting point. In my constituency, which, like his, has had many recent developments, many such roads have been adopted, so it is clear that many authorities are taking up the opportunity that exists. However, I will of course talk with my friends in the Department for Transport to secure a fuller answer for him. If he wishes to raise the matter on behalf of his constituents, Ministers will be here to answer questions on 27 June.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Today the Canadian Prime Minister is addressing hon. Members of both Houses as part of what seems to be a huge state lobbying effort on behalf of companies, such as Shell, that want to exploit tar sands at any cost and weaken the EU fuel quality directive to create a market for this dirty oil. Since tar sand oil is so incredibly damaging, may we have a debate on the cosy relationship between politicians and the fossil fuel industry, both in the UK and elsewhere?

[Mr Lansley]

For a moment there I was pleased that the hon. Lady was drawing attention to the presence in the Houses of Parliament of the Canadian Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, who will be speaking in an hour or so. I rather regret the way she then went on to speak about Canada. Canada is among our very closest friends and allies in so many ways. The Prime Minister is a distinguished occupant of that post in Canada and I think that we should welcome him wholeheartedly.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

On 17 April, my 18-year-old constituent, Georgina Woodley, sadly lost her brave battle with cancer. Hospice care for those at the beginning of life and at the end of life is extremely good, but her courageous family are now campaigning for better palliative care for teenagers and young adults. May we have a debate about this issue at the earliest convenience?

[Mr Lansley]

I am sure that the whole House will share my hon. Friend’s sadness at the loss of his constituent and express our condolences to her family. Considerable strides have been taken in palliative care, particularly in relation to teenagers. I have met the youngsters at Christie hospital and University College London hospital, which, not least with the support of the Teenage Cancer Trust, have done a tremendous amount to improve the age-appropriate character of care for teenagers with cancer. There is more that we can do, absolutely, especially in support of the hospice movement. I hope that, following up on the Tom Hughes-Hallett report, we can introduce a system where money follows the patient so that the hospices that provide care that would otherwise be provided by the NHS get the support they need to provide the very high-quality personal care that they specialise in.

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

Now that we have had a chance to digest the latest report on children’s heart surgery and the flawed decision making to which it draws attention, may we have a debate on the quality of decision making in the NHS as a whole? That would give us an opportunity to debate further issues such as the removal of vascular services from Warrington hospital, on very flawed evidence, and the constant pressure for a merger between Warrington and Whiston, which would no doubt take away Warrington’s accident and emergency provision.

[Mr Lansley]

I will not comment on the particular instances that the hon. Lady mentions, though I have been aware of them in the past. The previous Government used to tell us that all these decisions were being made locally, but some of the evidence shows that they were, in effect, being made on a national basis but were not accountable on a national basis. Accountability will now be much clearer. Following what my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary said at the Dispatch Box yesterday, it is clear that in future NHS England will have a responsibility for commissioning these national specialised services across the country instead of the joint committee of primary care trusts from all over England that did it in the past. That is much clearer and much more straightforward, and I hope that NHS England will demonstrate a greater degree of consistency in decision making as a consequence.

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

May we have an urgent debate on the level of bonuses paid to Network Rail bosses? Is it not the case that rail bosses should not be paid large bonuses if they stand in the way of economic progress and also stand in the way of the vital need for a direct rail link from London to Shropshire?

[Mr Lansley]

Clearly, we are looking for Network Rail management to be appropriately rewarded in relation to their performance. I have nothing against bonuses if they accurately reflect the performance that is part of the contractual requirements. The job of Network Rail’s management—I think that they recognise this—is not only about the performance of the railway system as a whole but the many steps they should take through their investment programme to secure economic activity and growth, not least in some of the areas that are currently less well served by the rail network.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

May we have a debate in Government time on the Government’s flagship policy, the big society? That will give us an opportunity to discuss the important work done by volunteers as individuals, societies and institutions. It will also give us an opportunity to discuss the astronomical rise in the number of food banks across the country, which is a cost of living issue, and more so than any Government directive. May we have that debate, because this is a stain on David Cameron’s Britain?

[Mr Lansley]

During last week’s volunteers week, I saw for myself, as I am sure that many Members will have done, very many examples of fantastic volunteering activity. These are often tough times for charities, and inevitably so, because of the economic circumstances in which we found ourselves at the end of the last decade. I hope that an opportunity for a debate will arise, but I cannot promise one in Government time. The House will consider through the Backbench Business Committee the relative priorities in providing time to debate such matters. Such a debate would enable us to see how the Government’s big society initiatives are having a dramatic, positive difference. Last week, for example, the Work and Pensions Secretary led internationally on how social investment can deliver benefits to communities.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

The House will be aware of the implications for farming of the 18 months of extreme bad weather: we expect a poorer harvest, milk production has dipped and there has been a reduction in farm incomes. Will my right hon. Friend allow a debate, preferably in Government time, on the implications for food security and farm incomes of the extreme bad weather?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend is very knowledgeable on these matters and I completely understand her point, not least because my constituency has substantial arable production. I cannot promise a debate at the moment, but I am sure it would not be beyond the bounds of possibility to cover some of these matters in next week’s debate on the reform of the common agricultural policy.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House ask the Lord Chancellor to come to the House to explain his flawed policy on legal aid? He refuses to meet the chairman of the Criminal Bar Association, the Law Society is threatening legal action, the Lord Chief Justice and the Master of the Rolls are against it, and it undermines the English legal system. We need a statement or a debate in Government time.

[Mr Lansley]

I sat here with my right hon. and hon. Friends during Justice questions a few days ago when almost exactly the same point was made to them, and I heard them reply and say how often they meet the Criminal Bar Association and others and that they had done so recently. I will, of course, draw their attention to what the hon. Lady has said, but I heard them say that it is not true that they are not discussing this issue with those affected.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

May we have a debate on the current and future prospects for private sector employment? As we know, since 2010, 1.3 million new private sector jobs have been created and total employment stands at just a shade under 30 million. In my constituency unemployment fell by 79 last month and has fallen by 248 in the past 12 months. In addition, two private sector projects are set to create more than 8,000 new jobs over the next three years. All this in a constituency that is already in the top 20 for economic growth in the country.

[Mr Speaker]

Too long. I ask the hon. Gentleman to exercise a degree of self-restraint. He heard me earlier exhorting colleagues on both sides to be briefer. He should not then indulge himself in a long-winded question. He might have to wait a little longer for his next question than he otherwise would have done.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend was taken with enthusiasm at the economic performance under this coalition Government. He is right. Many people in many constituencies will be encouraged by private sector employment growth—by the simple fact that three private sector jobs are being created for every one lost in the public sector. To be frank, the Labour party derided us when we said that we could expect that to happen. It was wrong. This bodes well for job creation and, indeed, for wealth creation in the future.

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)]

Yesterday the Prime Minister was pressed on the issue of arming the Syrian rebels. He said that he has

“always believed in allowing the House of Commons a say on all these issues.”—[Official Report, 12 June 2013; Vol. 564, c. 333.]

However, he was not explicit on whether the House would have a vote. Is the Leader of the House able to guarantee that there will be a vote on any proposal to arm the Syrian rebels?

[Mr Lansley]

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was at business questions last week, but I was explicit about this. The Prime Minister was very clear and so was I last week.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

May we have a debate on celebrating Yorkshire? It is the 150th anniversary of Yorkshire county cricket club and, yesterday, skipper Andrew Gale scored a century at Lords; the Secretary of State for Health scrapped the flawed review that was to close Yorkshire’s children’s heart surgery unit; and in my part of Yorkshire employment is up and unemployment down.

[Mr Lansley]

I am glad to have another opportunity to celebrate Yorkshire. At the invitation of my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams), I had the privilege and pleasure of meeting Geoffrey Boycott at the Yorkshire county cricket club’s 150th anniversary celebrations here at the House on Monday. I will enjoy any opportunity to celebrate Yorkshire again in the future.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

Since the Government do not bother to monitor how they spend taxpayers’ money through the high street innovation fund, may we have a debate in Government time on the effectiveness of the Government’s policies on high street renewal and business improvement districts, so that we know whether all areas, including the Lifford business association area in my constituency, are getting a fair deal?

[Mr Lansley]

The Government are constantly seeking to evaluate the value for money of our expenditure in ways that the previous Government never attempted and we are delivering better value for money. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was in his place during Business, Innovation and Skills questions, but if he was, he would have heard the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) pointing out that more retail outlets have been opened recently than have been closed. The industry is undergoing substantial structural changes, not least because of the growth of online shopping. It is important for us all to recognise that there will be an inevitable process of adaptation.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

May we have a statement on how the Government have worked to improve transparency, particularly in relation to the use of Government procurement cards?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. When we came to office, we set out to curb the profligate use of taxpayers’ money through such expenditure. We must think about how much individuals pay in tax and about how cavalierly that money has been spent, not least under the last Labour Government, through the use of procurement cards. The private office of a single Secretary of State spent hundreds of pounds on dinner in restaurants and on hotels. We have curbed all that. It is important, in so many ways, that we do not go back to the days of the last Labour Government.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister walked out of the cross-party talks on a press charter, there was nothing in the Queen’s Speech on lobbying and, although we all understand the need for international action on aggressive tax avoidance, there has been no legislative proposal in the UK. In contrast, the French Government have taken action this week to insist that companies that make money in France have to pay tax there. In the interests of a fairer and more transparent society, will the Leader of the House tell us when the Government will bring forward proper measures to tackle those three important areas?

[Mr Lansley]

I am slightly staggered that the hon. Lady says all those things. I think I am in a different world. She should pay attention to what is happening. The Government have taken unprecedented action to secure international action on tax avoidance and are bringing forward legislation on general anti-avoidance measures. I have announced that we will bring forward legislation to tackle third-party influence on the political system, which will include a statutory register on lobbying. The hon. Lady has to catch up with what is going on.

[Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)]

May we have a debate on strengths and weaknesses? Five years ago, unemployment in Tamworth stood at 1,821, which was the highest in a decade. Today, it stands at 1,462, which is the lowest since before the Balls bust. May we discuss the strengths of the present Government’s economic handling, the weaknesses of Labour’s approach and the dangers of trusting weakness again?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I wish that I could have announced a debate for that purpose, but the pressures on business are such that I could not. Such a debate would have enabled us to compare the record of this Government with that of the previous Government, under whom the national debt doubled and the gross domestic product of the country fell by 6.3%, and who borrowed one pound in every four that they spent and left us with the biggest budget deficit in the developed world. In contrast, the deficit is now down by a third, more than 1.25 million more people are working in the private sector and, last year, employment grew faster in the UK than in any other G7 country. I hope that we have an opportunity to debate that contrast.

[David Wright (Telford) (Lab)]

Returning to the subject of films, people in Shropshire feel like it is groundhog day because the rail service that they had hoped would be provided to the county has been blocked. I associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), who on this matter, as on many others, is my hon. Friend. May we have a statement from a Minister about the direct rail service from Shropshire to London, because it is important for the local economy and local people really want it?

[Mr Lansley]

I will, of course, raise the point made by the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) with my friends in the Department for Transport, and ask them to respond directly to all Shropshire MPs about the rail service to that area.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

The House should congratulate the European Parliament on its vote yesterday to make Governments and companies publish what they pay for oil, gas, timber and mining extraction in resource-rich countries. Coupled with US laws, it means that transparency standards cover 65% of the world’s revenues from those sources, and that may be followed by similar laws in Canada, Switzerland and Australia. Will the Leader of the House urge the Prime Minister not to miss the opportunity to show great leadership of the G8 by ensuring that the UK has an open, public register of company share ownership, so that we can lead the world in rooting out tax evasion, corruption and money laundering?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend will forgive me if I do not expose my ignorance of the precise detail of those measures. I hope that she and all colleagues know that the Prime Minister is determined that at the G8 summit, in addition to promoting trade for economic growth and measures to deal with tax avoidance and evasion, we are also concerned to promote growth and development in the context of much greater transparency. I hope that that issue will be reported positively at the G8.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

In the context of pressure on household incomes, in Harrogate and Knaresborough we are benefiting from the fourth consecutive year of a council tax freeze from the Conservative-run borough council. We benefited disproportionately from the cut in fuel duty; I do not know whether we benefited disproportionately from the cut in beer duty, but I do know that in April, 1,833 people were taken out of paying income tax and a further 36,000 received a tax cut. May we have a debate on the actions being taken to help with the cost of living?

[Mr Lansley]

I cannot promise a debate immediately but it would be good if we could have one as that would give us the opportunity to reiterate some of the points raised by my hon. Friend, including that 3 million people on low pay will be taken out of income tax altogether by the coalition Government as a result of our changes to the personal tax allowance. The typical motorist will save £40 a year on petrol and diesel, in contrast to what the price would have been under the previous Government and the fuel duty escalator. Not least, we are also helping councils to fund a council tax freeze. Most of us recall that under the previous Labour Government, council tax doubled. We are now coming to the fourth year of this coalition Government, and that is a dramatic contrast in the impact on people’s household bills.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

May we have a statement from the Leader of the House on how private Members’ Bills work on Friday—especially for Members who are not often present on Friday—pointing out that they are for Members to introduce legislation that the Government are not prepared to introduce? Will he also point out that only one party in this House is prepared to introduce an EU referendum Bill? I am sure that the Bill from my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) will be different from the handout Bill the Conservative party published, and it will probably receive support from some brave Labour Members as well.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend perhaps invites Members to be in the Chamber for private Members’ Bills on Fridays, and it would be jolly good if they were to attend for that purpose. On the procedure for private Members’ Bills, I will, if I may, await the report by the Procedure Committee, which has been inquiring into the matter. I hope it will soon report on the issue and give us some guidance.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

Following the earlier request from the hon. Member for St Helens North (Mr Watts) for a debate on payday loans, and given the welcome announcement from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister yesterday about easing restrictions on credit unions in the short-term loans market and ongoing Government support for credit unions and the expansion project, may we have a debate that combines how to cut out predatory and excessive cost lenders with how to help the responsible alternative credit unions reach their full potential?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend makes a good point and in addition to the payday action plan that I referred to in response to an earlier question, it is important—as he says—that the Government have announced they will raise the credit union interest rate cap from 2% to 3%. That should reduce the losses made on loans, increase stability in the sector, and improve consumer access. The Government have also committed up to £38 million in additional investment in credit unions, which should increase access for at least 1 million more people. I hope that will do what my hon. Friend asks in promoting credit unions as an alternative.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

The headmaster of Bishop Wordsworth’s school informs me that, by the end of the current spending review period, he will receive £150,000 a year less for sixth-form provision. May we have a statement from the Education Secretary on how he is enabling excellent schools such as Bishop’s to thrive as well as providing funding for pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds?

[Mr Lansley]

I know my hon. Friend has written to Department for Education Ministers—I will encourage them to respond more fully than I can now—but he knows that we have taken steps to protect funding in school budgets with a minimum funding guarantee. Announcements were made only last week, I believe, on further simplifying and protecting schools in the context of the complex structure of school funding we inherited from Labour. I hope we can go further in that regard after the spending review.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

May we have a debate on tax reform? Hon. Members are concerned about the shameless tax avoidance by the likes of Google and Amazon, and, we now learn, by the Labour party. They need to change, but we need to consider what we can do to fix things for the long term.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is perfectly obvious that we need to ensure that we actively enforce the current legislation. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has set out to do so. Something like—[Interruption.] Thank you. If I am at all disorderly, Mr Speaker will tell me; I do not need the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) to do so. HMRC has secured something like £23 billion in total through improved enforcement measures and up to £2 billion in revenue in relation to contentious current issues such as transfer pricing in large companies. My hon. Friend makes an important point. We should not only enforce the law as it is, but look continuously to ensure that it is clear and ensures that everybody makes their contribution. Tax rates can be lower if everybody is under the law and pays the tax they are due to pay and the appropriate level in relation to their activities.

Royal Bank of Scotland

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

11:27

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid)]

Yesterday, RBS announced that the group chief executive, Stephen Hester, will step down from his position later this year. The decision was taken in the context of moving from the rescue phase to the next phase, and of focusing RBS on becoming a UK bank that provides greater support to the British economy, helping businesses and job creation here, and which can return to the private sector in a way that ensures value for the taxpayer.

As we commend Stephen Hester for the job he has done, it is worth considering how far RBS has come since the onset of the financial crisis. When Stephen Hester took over, the bank was on the edge of collapse with a broken culture, and posed a huge risk to financial stability. It had been bailed out by the British taxpayer at a cost of more than £45 billion. He brought it back from the brink, and since then has worked hard to make RBS a safer and stronger bank that is better able to support its customers.

RBS has changed substantially over the past few years. It exited the asset protection scheme last year, and non-core assets have been run down from about £258 billion in 2008 to £53 billion now; total assets of RBS investment banking operations are down from around £500 billion to £288 billion; short-term borrowing is down by more than £250 billion; its core loan-to-deposit ratio is now below 100%, which means that the core bank is funded entirely by deposits; and the core tier 1 capital ratio has more than doubled. The size and complexity of RBS has been significantly reduced, with a far greater focus on serving its UK customers. Entire business lines have been exited, and there has been a dramatic simplification, rationalisation and de-risking of the bank’s business model. That is an impressive list of achievements, and is one of the largest corporate restructurings in history. Stephen Hester has made an important contribution to Britain’s recovery from the financial crisis. I am sure that all hon. Members would like to join me in congratulating him on all he has done and achieved during his time at the bank. It is reassuring that he is staying on to ensure a smooth transition to his successor.

RBS has outlined the details of Stephen Hester’s leaving package. This is a matter for the RBS board, but I want the House to be fully aware of the terms of this package. At the point of Stephen Hester’s departure, and in line with his contractual obligations, he will receive a payment in lieu of notice representing one year’s salary and benefits. This amounts to £1.6 million. He will not receive a bonus for 2013. At the board’s discretion, Stephen Hester will keep his unvested long-term investment plan, or LTIP, awards. These will be reduced significantly through pro-rating for time of service. These awards are also subject to assessment against published performance conditions at the end of the respective performance period. Following this pro-rating and performance assessment, RBS estimates that the value of the LTIPs would be approximately £3 million at their current share price. In addition, the number of shares that Stephen Hester can receive is capped at 65% of the total, which would be just over £4 million at today’s share price. These payments are in line with his contractual terms, and the share awards will reflect payment for performance up to the point of his departure.

During his five-year term in office, Stephen Hester received one bonus out of a possible five. I also wanted to let the House know that Stephen Hester’s leaving package is expected to be worth about one third of the maximum he could have received under the contract that was agreed in 2008 by the previous Government.

RBS is now moving from the rescue phase to the next phase, which involves focusing on becoming a UK bank that provides greater support to the British economy and is prepared for its return to the private sector. The Government have always been clear about wanting RBS to become a more focused retail and commercial bank that is focused on supporting the British economy and has a much smaller international investment banking arm. RBS has already made progress towards this goal.

I expect the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, which was established last year, to report soon, but let me briefly remind everyone of what the Government have already achieved in the financial sector. First, we have introduced a brand new watchdog with powers to keep our banks safe, so that they do not bring down the economy. In April, the Financial Services Authority was abolished and the Bank of England is now in charge of keeping our financial system safe, with the transfer of responsibility for prudential regulation to a new subsidiary of the Bank, the Prudential Regulation Authority. With the authority that comes from its history and the new powers we have given it, the Bank of England is empowered to protect our financial system. We have also created a strong new conduct regulator, the Financial Conduct Authority, to ensure that London and the UK have the best and most open, transparently policed markets in the world.

Secondly, we are taking legislation through Parliament to introduce a law, following the recommendations of Sir John Vickers and his Commission, that will for the first time ever erect a ring fence around a major retail bank, so that its essential operations will continue even if the whole bank fails. This will protect the high street and the taxpayer from the mistakes of the dealing floor. Following the recommendations of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, we will be making further changes on Report to further strengthen the ring-fencing regime and electrify the ring fence.

The third area of the Government’s focus has been to engender a change in the culture and ethics of the banking industry itself. As members of the House know, we asked the Parliamentary Commission to look at how to improve the professional standards and culture of the banking sector. As I mentioned, its work is coming to an end and I expect it to report soon.

Fourthly, we will give customers the most powerful weapon of all: choice, which is the most powerful tool we have to improve markets and customer service, reward good companies and penalise poor ones. We have made a start with the sale of Northern Rock to Virgin Money and we are seeing new banks, such as Metro Bank, on our high streets. This year we are taking a huge step towards making it easier for customers to move if they can get a better deal elsewhere. From this September, every customer of every bank in Britain will be able to switch their bank account from their existing bank to another one within seven days. This is real progress.

We are still mopping up the huge economic mess we inherited from the Labour party. We will not take economic recovery for granted and will continue to deliver our clear plan to deal with the problems that it left behind. [Interruption.] I thought that would get them excited, Madam Deputy Speaker. RBS has been brought back from the brink, and now is the time to move on from the rescue phase and focus on RBS being a UK bank that provides greater support to the British economy, a bank that helps businesses here, a bank that helps job creation here and a bank that can return to the private sector in a way that ensures value for money for the taxpayer.

11:35

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Opposition are very surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not come to the House of Commons today to respond to growing speculation that he has already decided the fate of the Royal Bank of Scotland. The Government’s handling of this matter has already caused widespread concern. Stephen Hester did an important job starting the process of turning RBS around, but clearly there is a long way still to go, as he has said himself, so I want to ask the Minister about the four key points on which we need urgent clarification.

First, on the departure of the chief executive, did Stephen Hester go voluntarily or was he pushed? What role did the Chancellor have in prompting his departure? When did the Chancellor set out to the chairman and the board his desire that Stephen Hester should go and is there now any role for United Kingdom Financial Investments, or has it been circumvented in the discussion on the chief executive’s role? Can the Minister explain why they got rid of the current chief executive before finding a successor? Was that really a sensible thing to do? Why have they left such uncertainty? Is the 6% fall in RBS’s share price this morning, wiping off nearly £2 billion from the value of the taxpayers’ stake, a reflection of this confusion? Can the Minister clarify reports this morning that the chairman of RBS has indicated that he will also leave if and when a new chief executive is found?

Secondly, did the chairman, Sir Philip Hampton, let the cat out of the bag when he admitted to journalists last night that the Chancellor wants a sale by the end of 2014? Sir Philip said:

“The acceleration of considering succession for a CEO role arises largely from the Treasury’s determination...where it can be returned to the private sector by the end of 2014”.

Will the Minister tell us now what the Chancellor told the chairman and the board? Is it just a coincidence that the end of 2014 would fit neatly into the Chancellor’s pre-election political timetable? Should the time scales not be driven by the best interests of the taxpayer and the British economy instead?

Thirdly, are the public wrong to suspect that this generous severance payment for Stephen Hester is just a foretaste of the wider loss that will be made for the taxpayer if they rush headlong into a pre-election fire sale? Given that Stephen Hester said yesterday that he was confident that RBS was capable of being worth more than the £45 billion the taxpayer originally paid, why is the Chancellor rushing to prove him wrong? Stephen Hester told the BBC last night that RBS was capable of being worth more than what the Government paid for the shares. Does the Minister agree? If not, why not?

Fourthly, can the Minister explain why it is sensible to intervene in the executive management of RBS rather than have an orderly process of repairing the bank and thoroughly considering the full range of future options for this institution—a process that has incredible ramifications for our whole economy? We look forward to the report from the cross-party Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and any views it might have on this, but rather than this shambolic and uncertain approach, surely we need a clear, methodical process and a detailed exploration of how the shape and structure of RBS can best serve our economy in the longer term.

Finally, why has the Chancellor not come to Parliament to set out what is obviously a change of policy? No disrespect to the Minister, but it is his boss we need to hear from today. Should not the Chancellor set out his plans first to this House and not to the Mansion House?

[Sajid Javid]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. I will start with his final question, if I may. He asked why the Chancellor is not here. That is because I am here; I thought the hon. Gentleman would be pleased to see me. I could well ask him where his boss, the shadow Chancellor, is. If this is such an important issue for the Opposition, the shadow Chancellor might have turned up.

I was also hoping that I might get an apology from the hon. Gentleman and some recognition that the only reason we are here discussing this topic today is the previous Government’s failure to regulate our banking system, which led to more than £45 billion of taxpayers’ money being injected into bailing out a bank—the world’s largest banking bail-out.

Let me turn to the hon. Gentleman’s four questions. First, he asked about the sequence or the terms of Stephen Hester’s departure. I am pleased to confirm to him that the Chancellor has not been directly involved in meeting with Stephen Hester prior to the announcement —[Interruption.] He has not met with Stephen Hester prior to the announcement of his departure on this issue. This is a decision for RBS and its board. They have made the decision jointly with Stephen Hester and come to a voluntary agreement. The chairman of RBS, Sir Philip Hampton, asked to meet the Chancellor last week—at Philip Hampton’s request—to inform the Chancellor of the board’s decision, and that is what I would expect, given that the shareholder is the majority owner of the bank.

The hon. Gentleman also referred to the succession plans and asked whether it would have been better to find a successor in the first place. If he has looked carefully at the plans, he will note that Stephen Hester has agreed to stay on until a successor has been found or, at the very latest, until the end of this year. RBS has already begun its search process. I am confident that it will find a successor in time, but it is reassuring, as I said in my statement, that Stephen Hester is staying on in the meantime to help to smooth the process of finding his successor.

The hon. Gentleman also referred to the share price of RBS this morning. He will note that—I think I am right in saying—almost every major bank’s share price is down this morning. The stock market is down in general this morning. I suggest that the change in the RBS share price might also be a reflection of global stock markets, particularly Asian stock markets and markets in Tokyo, which, as it happens, also fell by 6% overnight.

Next the hon. Gentleman asked about the eventual sale of the bank and RBS’s comments about preparing the bank for its future return to the private sector. There should be nothing surprising about RBS having an ambition that the bank should be returned to the private sector. That is perfectly reasonable and perfectly normal. As for the Government’s plans, we have always made it absolutely clear that we have no target price when we are thinking about the return of RBS. We have no fixed timetable, and that includes the general election. Our major concern is to ensure, as the hon. Gentleman said himself, that when RBS is returned to the private sector, that is done with due regard to getting the best value possible for the taxpayer.

The hon. Gentleman also asked whether the value of the shares had been destroyed. I thought that was a bit rich, coming from him. He forces me to remind the House that when the previous Government carried out their bail-out following their failed policies and paid more than £45 billion for a stake in RBS, they overpaid by £12 billion above the share price. That amount was written off by the taxpayer at that moment, but that is something else for which we have not had an apology.

If I understood the hon. Gentleman’s last question correctly, he asked whether the Government had intervened in the decision-making process of the executive management. As I have said, those decisions are rightly made by RBS’s board. The Government’s shareholding is held through UKFI on an arm’s length basis. UKFI represents the interests of the taxpayer on RBS’s board. I remind the House that that arm’s length arrangement was deliberately set up by the previous Government; we have rightly kept it in place. UKFI reports periodically to the Treasury and provides advice, and we always take that into account when making our own decisions.

[Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)]

The early work on RBS’s recovery needed an investment banker, and Stephen Hester has done a difficult job extremely well. He deserves all our thanks, and I hope that the whole House agrees with that. Does the Minister agree that, whatever further reforms of RBS are now implemented, arguing about the past—about the past price or about party politics—is not what the country wants to hear or what the economy needs in the months ahead? What we now need, as soon as possible, is an RBS that can fully support the hundreds of thousands of people who are trying to make a living in small businesses up and down the country but who cannot get the support that they need. They need an RBS that is fully functioning for the first time in many years.

[Sajid Javid]

I thank my hon. Friend, the Chairman of the Treasury Select Committee and of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, for his comments. He is absolutely right to praise the work of Stephen Hester and I agree wholeheartedly with his views on what Stephen Hester has achieved in his five years at the bank. Perhaps my hon. Friend had his work with the Parliamentary Commission in mind when he asked his second question. The approach must be bipartisan and we must keep the interests of RBS and the economy as a whole uppermost in our minds.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

I agree that Stephen Hester did a good job in reducing the size of the bank’s balance sheet and beginning to turn the bank around, but that job was not complete at the time of his enforced departure. Will the Minister tell us more about the implications of this timing and strategy for returning the bank to the private sector? May I also tell him that, whatever else the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards has to say about this, if he was looking for a permission slip for a quick sale at a knock-down price, he will be disappointed?

[Sajid Javid]

It might help the right hon. Gentleman if I tell him that Stephen Hester himself has said in the past 24 hours that, for him, privatisation was the “end of a journey”, and that the board was looking for someone who would see it as the beginning of a journey. He has said that, for that reason, he understands the board’s decision. This is a voluntary agreement and a mutual decision between Stephen Hester and the board. The RBS board has said in its statement that it is looking forward to having a bank that is more focused on UK business and on the inevitable privatisation process.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

A substantial proportion of the Minister’s statement dealt with setting out the generous remuneration and exit package that Mr Hester will receive. I am rather more interested in the package that British citizens will receive when the bank is returned to the private sector in order to recompense them for the different ways in which they have paid for the £45 billion bail-out. Will the Minister confirm that UKFI and the Treasury are seriously examining the idea, which I first promoted in March 2011, that all British citizens should be able to profit from the uplift in the share price when the bank is returned to the private sector?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend is right to emphasise the absolute importance of getting the best value for the taxpayer when RBS is eventually returned to the private sector. There are many ways of doing that, and there is an open public debate on the ideas. At this point, however, it is right for me to say that while I welcome open debate, the Government are looking at the options very carefully, and we will set out a way forward after the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards has issued its final report.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

I thank the Minister for his statement and for early sight of it, and add my thanks to those of others for what Stephen Hester has done so far for the bank. RBS is planning a £175 million investment in the retail bank in Scotland and it also plans to maintain it as a global centre for mobile banking and a global payments hub. When Stephen Hester is replaced and the bank is finally returned to the private sector, will the Minister use whatever influence the Government have to ensure that those investments and those plans are maintained for the sake of jobs both in the bank and in those businesses that depend on the bank for support?

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware from the RBS statement yesterday that one reason why it has taken this step is that it believes, as do the Government, that RBS should become more focused on British business and British jobs. If the hon. Gentleman agrees with me that Scotland should vote next year to stay in Britain, that will certainly help the situation, making sure that when RBS talks about Britain, it is talking about the Britain we know today.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that Stephen Hester, who happens to be one of my constituents, was given a pretty poisoned chalice by the last Labour Chancellor when Fred Goodwin stepped down and that he has actually done an extremely good job in rescuing RBS and bringing it back from the brink? What I think most of my constituents are concerned about now is whether RBS is going to be a bank for small and medium-sized businesses, a bank for middle England and a bank for market towns such as Banbury and Bicester, helping to get SMEs and the economy moving and going forward.

[Sajid Javid]

I share the concerns that my hon. Friend has articulated. He will have noticed from my speech that I said RBS under Stephen Hester has made huge progress in becoming focused on lending to British businesses. I am confident that, because of the plans that have been set in place, that will become even more prominent in RBS’s strategy.

[Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister has said quite a bit about the end of the rescue phase, but absolutely nothing about the strategy for selling RBS back into the private sector. I remind him that the Government own 82% of the shares. There have been persistent rumours in the press about the creation of a good bank/bad bank. Will the Minister confirm or deny whether that is actively being considered, and if it is, how in those circumstances will he continue, as he stated in his statement, to protect the taxpayers’ interests?

[Sajid Javid]

The Chancellor has made it clear in very recent statements that he wants to wait for the report from the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. It is a very important report, and we as a Government want to listen and take it seriously. After the report is completed, we will set out our plans for how we see the state banking sector going forward.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

As someone who has worked in ABN AMRO and RBS, I pay real tribute to Stephen Hester, who I think was an outstanding chief executive who took the helm and leadership of RBS at the most difficult time in banking history. I am disappointed that he is leaving and I wish him every success in the future. I want to pay tribute, too, as should the House, to the staff of RBS. As we move towards privatisation, let us focus on looking at competition in the banking sector, which will deliver a much better customer service for us all.

[Sajid Javid]

That is exactly what I was talking about when I touched on the issue of choice in my statement. The introduction of seven-day switching, which will come into force in September, will help to engender the kind of competition that we want to see.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

The Minister’s statement underlined what a shambles this is, and also made it clear that there might not be a new appointment for some time. My specific question is this, however. When my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) asked about the Chancellor’s involvement, the Minister said that the Chancellor had had no direct involvement. May I ask whether he had any indirect involvement? Let me help the Minister to answer that question. Was the Chancellor asked by any member of the ministerial team or by civil servants in Whitehall, or by people in the Royal Bank of Scotland, for his view on whether this was the right decision?

[Sajid Javid]

As I have said, such decisions are for the board of RBS, which is a commercial organisation. As we all know, however, because it is a commercial organisation in which the state is the majority shareholder, with the state’s interests represented through UKFI, when RBS makes a major decision it will inform the Government.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

May I pursue the question asked by the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg)? I am not entirely sure why the Minister made his statement. If this was a completely independent decision, what new Government policy has been announced today?

[Sajid Javid]

The Government decided that a statement should be made today because the issue is important to the population at large. Given the Government’s stake of over 80% in RBS, and given that the last Government pumped in £45 billion, I think it important for the Government to set out their strategy on RBS.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

This time last year, RBS was subject to a major technical problem. As a result, one of its constituent parts, Ulster bank in Northern Ireland, lost some customers, and many customers did not benefit from full transparency. Only recently, I was told by the Financial Conduct Authority that it could not obtain answers. Will privatisation be the next stage in the rescue package?

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Lady has made a good point overall about the importance of RBS’s operations in Northern Ireland and also in the Republic, which involve lending to both small businesses and consumers. RBS takes those operations seriously, and I know that it has been thinking carefully about how it can improve them further.

[Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con)]

Given Stephen Hester’s excellent career—he had previously spent two years at Abbey National and four years at British Land—and given that he has remained in such an important and high-pressure job for five years, it seems to me entirely reasonable for him to leave after completing the first phase of a major restructuring process, and to hand the business on to a chief executive who is more experienced in long-term matters.

[Sajid Javid]

As always, my hon. Friend has made a very good point. I agree with him that Stephen Hester has done a commendable job. Five years is a perfectly normal period for anyone to remain as chief executive of a major corporation, and that sentiment was reflected in Stephen Hester’s own comments since the announcement of his departure.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Minister answer one really important question about this very major change? Two banks ran into difficulties, RBS and HBOS—many of my constituents worked for HBOS—but those two banks were not run into the buffers by politicians; they were run into ruin by the group of unscrupulous, immoral bankers who ran the companies, and it was not politicians but auditors and those in the accountancy profession who never flagged that up. Let us get the record straight. Let us be honest with the British people. Let us also be honest and say “You have just sacked this banker for your own purposes.”

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Gentleman is right about being honest, of course, and in the interests of honesty, it is important to point something out. Since he seems to have suggested that the previous Government played no role in the failure of RBS and that it was just a failure of poor banking, let me remind him of what the then shadow Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), said in 1997 when the then Government planned to change the regulatory system. He said:

“The process of setting up the FSA may cause regulators to take their eye off the ball, while spivs and crooks have a field day.”—[Official Report, 11 November 1997; Vol. 300, c. 732.]

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

While RBS has clearly had a turbulent past and taxpayers rightly want their money back, is not the really important point that RBS has gone from a bust bank under the last Government to a normal bank now, and that it has actually made a profit of over £800 million in the first three months of this year, and that business lending is up in the first quarter to over £13 billion, almost £8 billion of which was to small businesses?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. RBS has ended what I referred to as the rescue phase. Stephen Hester successfully brought the bank back from the brink and has started to refocus it, and the new strategy that RBS has set out will focus it even more on lending to UK businesses and households?

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

The decisions made about RBS’s future represent a huge impact on the public finances, so where is the Chancellor?

[Sajid Javid]

I answered that question earlier.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

May I add to the tributes to Stephen Hester? He was very responsive to MPs’ letters and he was also very good at briefing Members of Parliament. May I also pay tribute to RBS staff, however, who across the country and worldwide have been working in very difficult circumstances, and may I urge the Minister to make sure that in this transition period towards privatisation a lot of focus is put on them?

[Sajid Javid]

I agree. We have talked about Stephen Hester and the role he has played in bringing the bank back from the brink, but that would not have been possible without the dedicated staff that RBS has had, and we must never forget the contribution they have made in repairing the bank.

[Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)]

It is clear from the Minister’s statement that the Chancellor has sacked the chief executive. Can the Minister assure the House that there is no gagging clause in the chief executive’s contract when he leaves with his package of £5 million that will stop him setting out his own views on when RBS should be sold?

[Sajid Javid]

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was listening to the statement I made. If he was, he would realise that the RBS board made this decision.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

As the Minister knows, I think the sooner the Government get out of the banking business, the better. There has been a lot of discussion today about the price at which they should do that. What has the Minister been able to discover about the due diligence that was done on the price the Government paid to buy RBS shares in the first place?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend raises a good point, and it is actually quite easy to find out—although I do not think the previous Government wanted to advertise it, and nor do I think the current Opposition want us to continue highlighting it—that when RBS was bailed out, the then Government overpaid by over £12 billion and wrote that off at that time. They did the same in the interventions in Lloyds bank and Northern Rock, and, as we know, all this was a direct result of the previous Government’s failure to regulate our banking and financial system properly.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The Minister referred in his statement to the regulatory role of the new Prudential Regulation Authority. What mechanisms have the Government and the Bank of England put in place to ensure that the PRA does not suffer from the “revolving door” disease, which afflicted its predecessor, the FSA?

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Gentleman raises a good point. That was a problem at the previous regulator, the FSA. When the PRA was set up, its head, Andrew Bailey, prioritised the issue, making sure that he hires the best people and that they are rewarded accordingly, to make sure they can do a good job in looking after the interests of the taxpayer.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

Given that the taxpayer had to buy the bank and, shamefully, was forced to overpay by £12 billion, may I urge the Minister not only to privatise it as soon as possible, but to consider people’s shares, so that the taxpayers who paid for it have something to show for it?

[Sajid Javid]

I remind my hon. Friend of something I said earlier, which is that we are looking at future plans for the state-owned banking sector but think it prudent to wait for the report from the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards; however, I will take his representation on board.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

One can tell when this Government have something to hide: the Chancellor runs for cover and a junior Minister is sent out to make a statement and deny absolutely everything—rather unconvincingly, if I may say so. Does the Economic Secretary not understand that my constituents are still spitting with fury about the fact that they are paying the price for the mistakes made by bankers? If the dash for cash, which he has been touting around the Committee Rooms and the City of London for the past few weeks, goes ahead, yet again, bankers will make more money, brokers will make more money, and the taxpayer will lose out.

[Sajid Javid]

If I remember correctly, the hon. Gentleman was a member of the previous Government, not just a Government Back Bencher, so he was involved in decision making and presumably supported the action that the then Government took on banking regulation. I wonder whether he held those views back in 2007, just before the collapse of the British banking system, when the then Chancellor said in his Mansion House speech:

“I congratulate you Lord Mayor and the City of London on these remarkable achievements, an era that history will record as the beginning of a new golden age for the City of London.”

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Will the Economic Secretary reconfirm that Stephen Hester’s exit package, while undoubtedly generous, is just one third of the amount that he could have got under the contract signed by the last Labour Government? Also, given that Her Majesty’s Government hold, on behalf of all our constituents, 80% of the bank, will he ensure that the terms of the contract for the new chief executive reflect Stephen Hester’s actual remuneration and not the theoretical remuneration put in place by the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I can confirm that, under the terms to which the previous Government signed up in 2008, when Stephen Hester was appointed, his exit package could have been three times greater. That again highlights the Labour party’s utter confusion on this issue.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

The Minister spoke of the importance of RBS becoming a bank that provides greater support to the British economy. I could not agree more, but rather than flog it off, would not a more effective way to achieve that aim be to maintain the bank in the public sector and to direct investment into projects that will genuinely benefit the public and the economy—into small businesses, affordable housing and home insulation—which will also create hundreds of thousands of local jobs?

[Sajid Javid]

Respectfully, I have to disagree with the hon. Lady. I think the Government have no long-term role in owning any part of the banking sector.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Last but not least, I call Geraint Davies.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

This announcement has already helped to wipe £2 billion off taxpayer-held share value, so will the Economic Secretary consider a staged sale of RBS, in chunks, to maximise the return? Will he also consider keeping a residual shareholding, to maintain influence so that the ambition we all share can be met that RBS continues to focus on small and medium-sized enterprises, rather than runs off, as it has before, in ways that are not in the interests of the British economy?

[Sajid Javid]

First, the hon. Gentleman should know that share prices go up and down, often with the general direction of the market. If he is really concerned about shareholder value, presumably he was against all the changes that the Government he supported made during their time in office, which led to the true destruction of taxpayers’ money. The Government believe that the strategy RBS has set out and made clear yesterday—a bank that is more focused on the UK economy and working with British business, with a smaller investment bank—is the right one, as is the strategy of getting a CEO who can see that process through for the next few years. We think that that will lead to value creation.

Point of Order

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

12:09

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you for taking this short point of order; I do not want to delay the main debate. It is a question of the accuracy of the record for the public and for Parliament, and I am indebted to Brian Simpson MEP, an agriculture spokesman, for unearthing the facts. On a matter as vital and sensitive as bovine TB, and related issues, it is important that we deal with the evidence and the facts.

The UK Government’s position has been that field trials for the cattle vaccination in the UK are prohibited under EU law, thus preventing the development of a cattle vaccine in the UK. However, recent statements from the Commission for the Environment and Rural Affairs Committee report published on 5 June show that clearly this is not the case. Field trials can be allowed without a need to amend existing EU legislation if certain criteria are put in place. Moreover, according to the Government’s statements, the Government were told last year to come forward with a programme for the field trials. However, nothing has yet been published. Finally, even though the Secretary of State has made clear that this will take 10 years, the Commission has said that that is indicative only and that the timetable could be compressed.

Madam Deputy Speaker, can you give me advice as to how we can set the record straight and get clarity on such an important issue for farmers and the rural community?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

I agree that this is an important issue but I must tell the hon. Gentleman something that I think he already knows: that is not really a point of order but a point of debate. He has got his points clearly on the record today and I am sure that he will find other parliamentary opportunities to explore them. It is not a matter for the Chair and it does not require a ruling.

Backbench Business

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

Iraq War (10th Anniversary)

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

12:11

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of the tenth anniversary of the Iraq War.

I would like to thank the Backbench Business Committee for enabling me to secure this debate, which has the support of colleagues across the House. It gives us a chance to reflect not only on the Iraq war but on Parliament’s role in that war. It is a debate that I believe our constituents would expect us to hold as we pass the 10th anniversary of the US-led invasion.

All of us will have in mind today the 179 members of our armed forces who have lost their lives in this conflict. I pay tribute to them and to their bravery, and my sympathy goes out to their families for their terrible loss. Other service personnel have suffered physical and mental trauma as a result of the war which, for many, will be with them for the rest of their lives. We also have in mind the many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi men, women and children who were killed during the war or who have died since in military operations, bombings, acts of terrorism or through sickness and disease.

Possible estimates of the number of Iraqis killed in the invasion and occupation of Iraq vary wildly. A Lancet survey between March 2003 and June 2006 pointed to over 650,000 excess deaths, while an Opinion Research Business survey put deaths as a result of the conflict at over 1 million up to 2007. The Iraq Body Count, or IBC—an independent US-UK group—reports 112,976 documented civilian casualties and points out that further analysis of the WikiLeaks Iraq war logs may add 12,000 civilian deaths to that the number. The IBC has always said that its number is an undercount because proper records have not been kept by the coalition forces, a fact that tells its own story.

Whatever the true number, there is no dispute that there has been a grave civilian price, one that continues to be paid and threatens to get worse. For most of us today, this 10th anniversary of the invasion is largely history, but for the people of Iraq it is a state of continuing war. Iraqis are being hit by almost daily attacks, with tensions growing between the Shi’a Muslim majority and the minority Sunnis, raising fears of a return to the worst level of sectarian violence. Just this week we have seen harrowing reports of at least seven people killed in a single day in a wave of bombings and attacks in central and northern Iraq. Last month was the bloodiest since June 2008, with over 1,000 Iraqi civilians and security officials killed, according to the UN.

It is a grim understatement to say that the Iraqi people do not have security. There are deep concerns about human rights, massive corruption, unemployment and miserable basic services, such as electricity and water supplies. But even if Iraq finds a way out of its current difficulties, as we all fervently hope it will, there is the legacy of the last 10 years of warfare and terrorism as well. Part of that legacy is the deeply disturbing cases being taken to our High Court, involving more than 1,000 killings and acts of torture committed in Iraq by UK forces. We must have public scrutiny of the systemic issues arising from these cases and look to reform the training and oversight of our armed forces.

What of our own country? Do we feel more secure? Is the terrorist threat diminished because of those 10 years of bloodshed and chaos? In fact, the contrary is true. According to the former head of MI5, Eliza Manningham-Buller, the Iraqi invasion increased the terror threat in Britain, radicalising a generation of young British Muslims and substantially increasing the risk of a terrorist atrocity on UK soil. A major unprovoked attack without UN authorisation took place with dire consequences. These terrible and deeply troubling outcomes add real substance to the argument that this was the biggest foreign policy failure of recent times.

As an individual, I opposed the war in Iraq because it was my view that the burden of justification for undertaking a major unprovoked attack had not been met. I joined the anti-war protest in February 2003, which saw between 1 million and 2 million people marching in London, the biggest political demonstration in history. In successive polls by different and reputable agencies, around two thirds of British citizens say the Iraq war was a mistake.

Ultimately, Parliament was responsible for that decision to go to war. It was MPs in this House who questioned, debated and voted on the decision, both on 26 February and 18 March 2003. But if this war was a mistake, what should Parliament do now? If it were a public body—a school, perhaps, or a hospital or local authority—we would expect an admission that things had gone wrong and a pledge to learn the lessons so that it could not happen again. That, I believe, is at the heart of today’s debate. Not a blame game or resignations; not heads on platters or humble pie; not a chorus of “I told you so.” What I want to focus on specifically is the role of Parliament. How was it that, with some very honourable exceptions, parliamentary scrutiny failed? How was it that the intelligence could be so misinterpreted and misused? How was it that facts clearly in the public domain were ignored or dismissed?

These are not academic questions. Their relevance and consequences are all too real today. We cannot simply leave them to others to answer. The Hutton inquiry and the Butler inquiry had their own terms of reference. Hutton’s remit was the death of Dr David Kelly; Butler’s was a panel, handpicked by Tony Blair, that was insufficiently independent and held far too many hearings in private. Shamefully, we still await the results of the Chilcot panel fully five years after it was established, while battles continue over declassifying material. I know of at least one freedom of information battle that is still being had with the Foreign Office; the sticking point is not national security, but national embarrassment.

All of these processes can play a useful part in revealing some of the truth of what happened in the lead-up to the war and beyond. But it is not the job of these men, however eminent or well intentioned, to stand in judgment on Parliament. Parliament is sovereign, and must remain sovereign even when it comes to considering its own failures and necessary reforms. As parliamentarians in 2013, we can and must ask, and answer, whether sufficient evidence was available in the public domain to allow Government Back Benchers and Opposition MPs to both question and oppose the Government’s case for war in 2003.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I have always found that hindsight in politics is a great thing and makes things a lot easier. The hon. Lady should look at the evidence that came not from the Government or the security services, but from Hans Blix in his final report. I had the honour of meeting him in New York the night before his final report was published and he clearly said to me and to Bruce George—a right hon. Gentleman at the time—not that Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction, but that he needed more time, with full co-operation, to determine whether Saddam did.

[Caroline Lucas]

I can only ask why, then, did we not give Hans Blix more time? I, too, have met Hans Blix and I, too, have heard him say that were the weapons inspectors given more time, they could have established the answer without the bloody war that happened.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Lady recall that the weapons inspectors were not allowed to go back to Iraq because of the decision of the British and US Governments in January 2003?

[Caroline Lucas]

I absolutely recall that and I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. It was in the interests of this country for the weapons inspectors not to go back into Iraq so that the Government could make that case.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Last night, I looked at the notebook that I had at the time. [Interruption.] No, it is in my own handwriting. What it said is not that Hans Blix needed more time, but that he needed more time if he was going to get full co-operation from Saddam, and at that time he clearly was not.

[Caroline Lucas]

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman and I will come to other quotes from Hans Blix, who made it clear that to a great extent Saddam Hussein was co-operating and that with more time we could have avoided the war.

We as parliamentarians have the role and the job of scrutinising the available evidence that was in the public domain. I entirely take the point that hindsight is a wonderful thing. The point I want to make is that plenty of information was in the public domain.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady not only on securing this debate, but on the manner in which she is presenting the case. Following on from what the former loyal Minister of the previous Government in the Ministry of Defence said, it is not a question of the benefit of hindsight. Many Members of the House, both on the Opposition Benches and, in some honourable cases, on the Government Benches, scrutinised the evidence at that time and came to the conclusion that it was unwise in those circumstances to proceed with engaging in military action in Iraq.

[Caroline Lucas]

I am particularly grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention because I will shortly pay tribute to those hon. Members who did stand up in this place, who did scrutinise and who did ask the right questions. The fact that they came to the conclusions that they did demonstrates that the evidence was there. Unfortunately, there was a will not to look at some of it.

[Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)]

Before the hon. Lady goes on, may I say in respect of Mr Hans Blix—I have made this point outside the House—that there is a profound disconnection between what he is saying now and what he said at the time? What he said at the time, and he repeated it in a book in 2004, was that he thought that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and posed a threat. I know of no provenance whatsoever for the claim that the inspectors were prevented from continuing their work in Iraq by either the US or the UK in January 2003.

Moreover, the final reports from Hans Blix complained about a lack of co-operation, the inability of inspectors to interview scientists from Iraq inside or outside Iraq, and the continuing intimidation. The final report that he made, which I had to force him to publish, on 7 March 2003, catalogued in 29 chapters of 170 pages the unanswered questions that Mr Blix thought Saddam had to answer, even at that stage, about all the chemical and biological weaponry that had been known about in the past and which Saddam had failed to explain. That is where Blix was at the time. My last point is this—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

No. Will the right hon. Gentleman please sit down? I am trying to be very tolerant to facilitate the debate but there are lots of Members who want to participate, and making a speech on an intervention, however important the point, is not acceptable. Therefore the right hon. Gentleman will have to wait to make the rest of his points.

[Caroline Lucas]

I thank the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) for his intervention. Obviously, he has a great deal of information from that time.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Lady also acknowledge that there was a huge amount of foresight on the part of people who were opposed to the war, not entirely on the existence of weapons? Many nations have weapons of mass destruction. What was totally implausible was the suggestion that Saddam Hussein would use those weapons against America and against the United Kingdom in a way that would be suicidal and guarantee own defeat. We know what the reasons for the war were, and they were in the mind of George Bush.

[Caroline Lucas]

I welcome that intervention. We need to recognise that a threat is made up of the capability to use weapons and also the intention to use them. What Hans Blix made very clear at that point was that there was not, as far as he could see, any intention to use them. What he wanted to find out was what else there was.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Caroline Lucas]

I will give way shortly. Let me make a little more progress.

I keep coming back to the importance of MPs—ourselves—scrutinising the decision-making process that took place at the time. In that context, I was surprised and disappointed when, back in March this year, the Foreign Secretary, for whom I have a great deal of respect, wrote what was intended, I think, to be a confidential letter to members of his party, telling senior members of the Government that they should not be drawn on the controversial issues that drew the UK into the Iraq war. They should, he suggested, wait until Chilcot had reported, but that of course might not be until the next election—who knows? We are still waiting after five years, and in any case, Chilcot does not have a monopoly on the issue, and I doubt whether he or his team would want one.

I turn now to what went wrong. There is plenty of evidence that shows that the case for war set out by the Blair Administration in 2003 was deeply flawed. Intelligence was misused, concerns expressed by experts were suppressed, and the legal and political position was misrepresented. From this arises the belief among many journalists and members of the public as well as Members of this House that they were misled into supporting the war in Iraq. In fact, when one reads the documents and listens to the testimony, it is hardly far-fetched to call it a conspiracy.

In brief, Tony Blair decided to join the US in invading Iraq and removing Saddam Hussein. He knew that the British people and their representatives were dubious about the wisdom of this, to say the least, so he used every opportunity to twist the evidence to isolate his critics and encourage his supporters. Britain was indeed spun into war. This is the foundation of the familiar position that many former war supporters now take. Often they will say, “If I had known then what I know now, I would not have supported the war”, but is that enough? Does that really explain what happened?

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

In 2005 I went out to Iraq. Then, even senior military officers were questioning the legality of their being there and having gone in. So it is not simply a matter of us doubting it. They were unsure of the legal position as well.

[Caroline Lucas]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. It would really help me to chair the debate if Members made brief interventions and stayed on their feet while they were doing so. I know the hon. Lady is being very generous in giving way under some considerable pressure, but I am sure she will bear in mind the length of time that she is speaking and the others wishing to participate.

[Caroline Lucas]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I was saying that many people will say that if they had known then what they know now, they would not have supported the war, and I said that that was not an adequate justification, precisely because of those Members of Parliament who were not taken in by the spin. Members of Parliament could have known then much of what they know now. A vast amount of the evidence available now was in the public domain then. We know this because of those hon. Members who did see through the lies and the deceptions, who asked the right questions, who trawled through the documents, who stood up in Parliament and said that the war was based on a false prospectus, and many of those hon. Members are in the Chamber today.

Let me give an example of three others, starting with an hon. Member who is no longer in the Chamber, the former Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak, Lynne Jones. She saw that Tony Blair and the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) made the misrepresentation of the French position a centrepiece of their efforts to win the vote on 18 March 2003. As one of the five permanent members of the Security Council, France had the power to veto a second UN resolution. In an interview on 10 March 2003 President Chirac indicated that, as things stood, France would use its veto in the unlikely event that a second resolution authorising military action got the necessary majority of nine members of the Security Council.

I quote from the transcript of the interview. Chirac says:

“My position is that, regardless of the circumstances, France will vote ‘no’ because she considers this evening that there are no grounds for waging war in order to achieve the goal we have set ourselves, i.e. to disarm Iraq.”

But by selectively quoting the words “regardless of the circumstances” when describing the French position on authorisation of the use of force, proponents of the war blamed France for blocking military action against Iraq, no matter what evidence emerged of a breach of resolution 1441. Tony Blair even included the selective and misleading quote in the motion in support of military action that was put to the House on 18 March 2003. [Interruption.] I want to finish this section. The importance of the inclusion of this misrepresentation in the motion was huge. Some MPs have stated that it alone changed their minds on whether or not to vote to go to war.

Giving evidence to the Chilcot inquiry, the right hon. Member for Blackburn suggested that President Chirac’s use of the phrase “this evening” did not describe the French position on the evening of the interview, thereby indicating that this could change in the future, but was simply an introduction to what he was going to say that evening. He put that argument to the panel by specifically stating the order of Chirac’s phrasing, down to where a comma is used. However, the transcript shows that he did not give the phrasing in the right order. The phrase “this evening” came after “regardless of the circumstances”, but he said that it came first, changing the meaning of Chirac’s words to suit the argument. The right hon. Gentleman said:

‘I know there has been some textual analysis of the use by President Chirac of the word “Le soir”, but I watched him say this and I took this as no more than saying, “This evening”, comma, and then he announces, “France will, whatever the circumstances”, he says, right?’

Well, that was not right. In fact, the transcript shows that Chirac explicitly ruled in the possibility that military action might be needed, stating in the same interview that if the weapons inspector reported after more time that they were unable to do their job, war would be inevitable. To quote directly, he said:

“But in that case, of course, regrettably, the war would become inevitable. It isn’t today.”

The French position, then, was that progress was being made on the weapons inspections and that France was therefore opposed to replacing the existing inspections process with an ultimatum that would lead to war in a few days’ time. The phrase “regardless of the circumstances” was not helpful, and it was unfortunate that Chirac used those words, as they were easily taken out of context. However, that does not detract from the responsibility of those, including Tony Blair and the right hon. Member for Blackburn, who—I argue—misinterpreted, and continued to misinterpret, President Chirac’s interview of 10 March in order to blame France for the failure to obtain a second UN resolution. The reason that it was not possible to obtain UN authorisation for the use of force is that there was no evidence showing Iraq to be an active and growing threat; it was not because of French intransigence, as UK Ministers said.

Hansard shows that Lynne Jones was ridiculed when she tried to raise the misrepresentation of Chirac’s interview in the House, but the fact that she raised it shows that there were hon. Members who bothered to get the transcript of what was actually said before the vote and that it was not necessary to accept the interpretation being given by the Government at face value. It was not a detail; President Chirac’s words were placed at the heart of the motion that Parliament debated and voted on.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

I got on well with the former Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak, who was a very good Member of Parliament, but I think that the hon. Lady is reading far too much into this in order to support her conspiracy theory speech. On the same visit to New York, I also met the French ambassador to the UN, and it was quite clear that there was no way the French would vote for a resolution that endorsed action, and they were working with the Germans, who took the same position. It is not the case that the French were somehow up for negotiation.

[Caroline Lucas]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but the point is the issue of when they were going to accept intervention—

[Mr Jones]

They never were.

[Caroline Lucas]

Well, I have seen the evidence from Chirac and the way it was treated when it came to the Chilcot inquiry, and I think that it is perfectly plain that Chirac’s intervention was deliberate misinterpreted. The words were taken in the wrong order and made to mean something different. [Interruption.] We can trade our beliefs across the Chamber, but the bottom line is that there was evidence out there that would have led Members to suspect that what they were being told at that point was not necessarily the case.

[Mr Straw]

First, the transcript, and indeed the video, were available to all Members on both sides of the House, so they could make their own judgments on it, and the vast majority made the judgment that we made about what had happened. Secondly, what we were seeking in the second UN resolution was not war, but peace—I was desperate for it—by an ultimatum that included six tests, which were drafted by Hans Blix, by the way, and they were tests that Saddam could easily have passed had he wished to do so.

[Caroline Lucas]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but I will move on.

I want to talk about the former Member for Livingston, Robin Cook. Reading his resignation speech makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, because it is all there: the reasons why the war was unnecessary and unjustified, the critique of the Government’s position and the exposure of the misinformation and deceit. It was delivered with eloquence and with the authority and credibility of a former Foreign Secretary and member of the 2003 Cabinet. Yet his warnings were heeded only by the 23% of MPs who voted to oppose the war. How could that happen?

The right hon. Member for Blackburn said earlier that the transcript of what Chirac had said was in the public domain, and that is precisely my point. Given that the evidence was there, how is it that more MPs did not come to a different conclusion? The answer, which I will make in greater detail later in my speech, is that they were whipped massively through a system in this House that means they give up their responsibility to make their own decisions. My point is that that kind of whipping on a vote of such importance and conscience is not the right way forward.

There are many potential explanations for why Robin Cook’s warnings were heeded by so few, but most come down to the idea that Members perhaps trusted the view that there was a subplot to the invasion that the Government could not be open about, that perhaps the Government knew much more about the risk Saddam posed to the UK than they were able to say, and that perhaps the conditions were right for establishing Iraq as a democratic, pro-western state. In some cases, Members were taken to one side and given off-the-record briefings.

But I think that the answer is much more simple: too many Members put loyalty to their leader and to their party above their own judgment. They swallowed their private doubts, accepted what they were told and voted accordingly. That misplaced trust crossed party lines. It is deeply regrettable that the tradition of loyalty meant that hon. Members such as Robin Cook were not heard. It is also regrettable that the Tory leadership supported the war so unquestioningly. Perhaps there was a feeling that that level of deceit was simply inconceivable when it came to an issue as serious as war. Yet now we know that it was not.

Returning to the “If I had known then what I know now” defence and looking to the future, we can perhaps conclude thus: no Member of this House should ever take on trust the case for war. They must listen to all sides with open minds, even to the refuseniks and the usual suspects in case this time they might just be on to something. They must look at the sources themselves and ask themselves and their leaders the tough questions: is there an alternative, and what if it goes wrong? There is plenty more evidence of the fact that there was material in the public domain that should have enabled more hon. Members to make a more informed decision.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Does the hon. Lady not agree, then, that one lesson we can learn, and perhaps agree on in this debate, is the need for a war powers Act that would mean Parliament must be consulted and must vote specifically on any military action undertaken on our behalf?

[Caroline Lucas]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because that is exactly the point I want to make. There should a mandatory vote of this House on issues as important as going to war. Moreover, and critically—this is the burden of what I am saying today—that vote must be a free vote based on conscience. We cannot allow ourselves to be taken along by the rhetoric of party leaders or to be bullied by party whipping and therefore, in a sense, to abrogate our responsibility to make our own decisions.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

The hon. Lady mentioned the Conservative party. I was there and know what was going on in the party. The atmosphere was very relaxed. Although there was whipping, we were allowed to vote against it. Someone resigned from the Whips Office but immediately rejoined. I voted against it. We formed a judgment. I am afraid that most of my colleagues believed the Prime Minister and took the view that Iraq was a threat, but no pressure was put on Conservative MPs.

[Caroline Lucas]

Clearly I do not have the inside information that the hon. Gentleman has, but I have heard many a different story told elsewhere.

In conclusion, I said at the start of my speech that the justification for the debate is that Parliament must accept that it made a mistake in 2003 and set out how it will prevent such a mistake from happening again. I believe that it comes down to the acceptance of one principle: there must be a limit to party loyalty, and even of loyalty to the leader of a party. Loyalty is in some way an admirable quality. There are times when it is right to bite one’s tongue, go along with the majority, set aside one’s opinions and accept the judgment and experience of others. But there are also limits. Committing our country to war, asking our young men and women to fight and accepting that men, women and children will die in our name must be beyond the sway of party loyalty.

I would like to see the end of the royal prerogative on war and the establishment of a constitutional convention that votes on war are not subject to party whipping. I know that some Members might dismiss that suggestion, but it is a serious one and I urge hon. Members to consider it carefully. Of course informal whipping would have taken place anyway, but it would have been different. Taking away the formal obligation to vote according to the party line would have pushed more hon. Members to look at the evidence for themselves and vote accordingly. It would have given their constituents more power and leverage and put more responsibility on the shoulders of each Member. Scrutiny would not have been dulled by loyalty in the same way.

Like the issues of capital punishment and abortion, committing troops to war is a matter of conscience, and MPs should be, at least formally, free from the heavy hand of the Whips. This principle is relevant now as we grapple with the terrible situation that is unfolding in Syria. Members should demand not just a vote on whether we arm the rebels but a genuinely free vote. If Iraq teaches us one thing, it is that if MPs are to vote on grave matters of conflict, for that vote to be meaningful it must be the view of their own conscience, not their party’s line. As individual constituency MPs, many of us have constituents who have died in Iraq—who have lost relatives there. It is no answer to them to say that on a serious matter like this we did not challenge the case and satisfy ourselves that war was justified and unavoidable.

In future, when we are faced with a decision about whether to go to war, we simply cannot have a situation where the Government of the day tell the story and we take what they say on trust. MPs have to do the work themselves. In any future vote, we and our successors must establish, to our own satisfaction and on evidence that we have seen and heard ourselves, that the case for war has been made. Three lines on a Whips sheet are not enough.

12:40

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this important debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing it.

It has been 10 years since we invaded Iraq, yet the experience still casts a long shadow, and lessons from the period are still relevant today. Perhaps the most important lesson is that the war threw into stark relief the importance of basing our foreign policy decisions on firm evidence. The intelligence on Saddam Hussein’s WMD and his links with al-Qaeda, which was used to varying degrees as justification and a pretext for hostilities, was infamously described by Tony Blair as “extensive, detailed and authoritative”. In reality, it was anything but. We now know that we went to war on a false premise; there were no WMD. The British intelligence community failed to approach the Iraqi material with its customary thoroughness and consequently allowed space for the Government to mould the evidence to suit their purposes, with disastrous results. Indeed, sections of the intelligence community became the mouthpiece of Government rather than their ears and eyes, and that must never be allowed to happen again.

We learnt only the after the event the extent to which No. 10 and Foreign and Commonwealth Office spin doctors were on the inside of the drafting process for the September 2002 dossier and strongly influenced it. The then chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, John Scarlett, was in regular touch with Alastair Campbell. A unit within the FCO, the communications information centre, promoted the case for war. This resulted in possibilities becoming probabilities and indications becoming judgments. One spin doctor wrote the first full draft of the dossier, at John Scarlett’s invitation, a full day before John Scarlett produced his own first full draft. This evidence has come out only subsequently, often having to be extracted like teeth from the Government through freedom of information requests and other means.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I agree with the points that the hon. Gentleman is making. Is not the biggest criticism of this whole sorry episode that having made the decision to go to war, the Government spent more time falsifying information to make the case for it than planning for the subsequent occupation, which has been a complete catastrophe?

[Mr Baron]

I certainly think that the post-war reconstruction was a shambles that led to a serious civil war and many casualties.

I have highlighted the detail with regard to the role of spin doctors and the FCO in the drafting of the dossier because that detail is important. When Tony Blair recalled Parliament, we were encouraged to believe that the dossier accurately reflected the assessments of the intelligence community. We now know that this was inaccurate. The dossier upgraded or exaggerated assessments made by the JIC, while intellectual ownership of the dossier did not reside with the JIC alone. Indeed, the final dossier was not even approved by the whole JIC. Yet that September we were led to believe that the account was that of the intelligence community, and that was a false impression.

[Andrew George]

The hon. Gentleman is making a very important point. Parliament needs to be reassured that we can get back to evidence-based policy making rather than policy-based evidence making, which appears to be the direction in which the civil servants went. We need an independent civil service that is capable of independently providing politically neutral evidence on which Parliament can assess these matters.

[Mr Baron]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. For many of us, the lesson from all this is that we must be wary of Government spin when we are addressing foreign policy issues, in particular; instead, we must focus on the evidence.

Bringing this up to speed, I suggest that in the case of Iran, for example, no intelligence service, whether American, British, Israeli or any other, has yet been able to publicly produce any hard evidence, as opposed to circumstantial evidence, that the Iranian leadership has decided to build a nuclear weapon or is taking that course. Nevertheless, that has not prevented our policy makers from painting a very different picture, and tensions are running unnecessarily high as a result.

The Iraq war is also a reminder that interventions often produce unintended consequences that can turn out to be counter-productive to our interests. A woefully inadequate post-war reconstruction ushered in a vicious civil war, as other Members have outlined. Studies estimate that many hundreds of thousands died in Iraq as a result of the invasion. In fact, Iraq became a honeypot for extremists worldwide. In a bitter irony, al-Qaeda only gained a foothold in Iraq after Saddam’s downfall and then proved difficult to eradicate. Minorities suffered as well. The Iraqi Christian communities, resident for centuries, have suffered immeasurably in the wake of the invasion.

[Mr Leigh]

I have since visited the Christian communities and heard the harrowing tales of what has happened to them. Is not what happened in Iraq a lesson for future action in Syria?

[Mr Baron]

My hon. Friend and I are very like-minded on this. We have a very bad track record of considering the consequences of our actions in relation to minorities within these countries. Syria is a good example, in the case not only of the Christians but of the Alawites.

Today, Iraq looks into the abyss because of economic failure, sectarian violence and political turmoil and corruption. Prime Minister al-Maliki, having centralised power, is a tentative supporter, to say the least, of President Assad, and a new wave of sectarian unrest seems imminent. That is one example of how unintended consequences can come back and bite us when we do not think these things through carefully.

Furthermore, there is little doubt that the removal of Saddam Hussein fundamentally altered the regional balance of power. We tend to forget in this House that we supported Saddam Hussein in Iraq’s attack on Iran. At that time, there was an approximate balance of power in the region. In effect, by taking Iraq out of the equation we ourselves created a regional superpower in the shape of Iran, the consequences of which we are still living with today.

I also suggest to the House that the invasion ignored the lessons of history. Interventions have a tendency to support, reinforce or have an embedding effect on the existing regimes. Looking back at history, communism, for example, has survived longest in those countries where the west has intervened militarily, such as China, Vietnam, Cuba and Korea. Meanwhile, the neo-con dream of establishing a sort of liberal democracy in Iraq lies in tatters. Democracy is taking root in north Africa, in regions where the west has put in very little support, not in Iraq or Afghanistan, where the cost to the west, particularly to this country, has been very high in terms of lives and treasure.

Meanwhile, as we have heard, our intervention has radicalised elements of the Muslim world against us, not only in regions of the middle east, but on the streets of this country. Scandals such as Abu Ghraib reinforce this alienation. As has been mentioned, Dame Manningham-Buller, the former head of MI5, said that the invasion “increased the terrorist threat” and

“spurred some British Muslims to turn to terror.”

We are still living with the consequences of this radicalisation, as very sad recent news has highlighted.

One scratches around for positives from this period. Perhaps there are a few. If al-Qaeda was one of the reasons for the invasion, it is now abundantly clear that the Iraq war was a 19th-century colonial-style solution to a 21st-century terrorist threat. There is no point invading countries if we are chasing extremists and terrorists. Instead, our efforts against international terrorism must be much more nimble and nuanced. They must reflect the flexibility of the terrorist threat itself, focusing on intelligence and operations, supporting friendly Governments in their anti-terrorist endeavours and applying properly resourced special forces. Indeed, there are encouraging signs that we have learned lessons from that period. We must also better focus international aid on the poverty and grievances that al-Qaeda and others have all too readily fastened upon in the past.

Perhaps—I am coming to an end—there is a more general lesson to be learned. We failed at the time to carry the international community with us, and in doing so I would suggest that we lost the moral high ground. The view adopted by the US and the UK at the time was that might is right. This sets a dangerous precedent. The coming decades will see the emergence of at least regional superpowers—or even global superpowers—that might be eager to flex their muscles. Our invasion of Iraq will make condemnation of any future aggression by others less effective. The invasion showed international law to be no guarantee of sovereignty or, indeed, security. This in itself may have encouraged some countries to seek other guarantees.

If there is a positive, it is perhaps that this war may have served to lay to rest, once and for all, the view that the British electorate would instinctively support politicians advocating intervention or war. I would suggest that Blair was never trusted thereafter. As our Prime Minister considers possible responses to Syria, he would be wise to reflect on that. In conclusion, let us hope that these lessons have been learned, for the sake of future generations.

12:53

[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

I apologise to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, both Front Benchers and all hon. and right hon. Members that I will not be able to be here for the winding-up speeches.

I begin with a caveat over the word “anniversary.” In my lexicon an anniversary is something to be celebrated. There is nothing to be celebrated about the Iraq war, the most disastrous foreign policy certainly in my lifetime and possibly in the history of this country.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on obtaining this debate and I heartily agree with many things she said. I have another caveat, however, in that I think she is much too harsh on Members of this House and, indeed, the electorate. Whether individuals supported or opposed the Iraq war, it is not the case that it was not a central topic of discussion, not only in this Chamber, but throughout the whole Palace and certainly throughout the whole country. I think she was a little unfair in a similar way to that in which my Government’s spokesman, rather more unfairly, dubbed all those who were opposed to the idea of a war in Iraq —this is just one example—as knee-jerk anti-Americans. There was also enormous pressure from the press that this war should go ahead, but it is not true that we did not examine, read or question the evidence on a cross-party basis. It was the major topic of discussion.

I do not want to rerun the arguments about all the dodgy dossiers and half-truths, which are now well and truly in the public domain, as they should be for what was undoubtedly a most immoral and possibly illegal war that, as the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) has detailed cogently, is still continuing.

I endorse the point made by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion about how important Parliament is in such situations and how totally its powers can be wiped away by the Standing Orders and mores of this place. I agree entirely that that should change. If there is anything positive to be taken out of the morass of the Iraq war, it is surely the lesson that we must never, ever go down that road again.

My current concern is for both the present and, partially, the future. Syria could so easily become yet another disaster for this country’s foreign policy. I pay tribute to the Prime Minister, although I would have liked him to have been more categorical on the possibility of arming one of the sides in what is essentially a civil war, which would be a total and unmitigated disaster. To give President Obama his due, despite his pronouncements about drawing lines in the sand—such statements are all too easily made by politicians, statesmen and powers—and even though the red line that he defined has apparently been crossed, perhaps in a minor way, with the use, we are told, of sarin in Syria, there is clearly no move on the part of the United States to engage its troops and weaponry in Syria, which is to be welcomed. It is a scandal and an absolute disgrace that Russia, one of the permanent members of the Security Council, is completely abdicating her responsibilities in relation to this war, but that does not relieve us in this Chamber, in this country, from accepting the realities of the desperate tragedies that we created by going into a benighted war.

I have had occasion to say in this Chamber and will say again that if we are going to spend money on armaments, that would be another complete and unmitigated disaster. There is a desperate, overwhelming need for even more humanitarian aid to support those countries on the borders of Syria that are carrying the biggest burden, including Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey, all of which have a major part to play in that part of the world. We should be supporting them, not opting for sides.

My major concern, in concert with the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay, is what I perceive to be a movement to try at some point to encourage the western powers or other allies to engage in a similar conflict in Iran on the basis, as far as I can see, having read the evidence, of an entirely spurious argument that Iran is not only desperate to make a nuclear weapon, but even more anxious to use it. That is totally off the wall, if one reads the existing evidence.

I have sketched out some of the lessons that we must learn from the gross intrusion that was the Iraq war—that living example of how power can corrupt absolutely. We have learned that if a great power attacks a smaller power, it will win. Desperate and terrible though the results of that are, the true tragedy is that nobody ever sat down and asked seriously, “How are we going to win the peace?” That is the most overwhelming lesson. However, the same thing is happening with regard to Syria. If we arm one side in that civil war, what will we do when the bullets run out—although they never will—and when the bombs stop falling?

We pay lip service to the diplomatic way of solving such problems, but we do not push it to the extent that we should. I remember clearly the news, on the day before the Iraq war turned to shock and awe, that 52 British ambassadors had written a letter to the Government saying, to paraphrase, “Don’t do it.” Not only this country, but all western nations, have a wealth of experience of the middle east. It has always been a tinderbox. At the moment, it is more than a tinderbox. What is happening in Syria to absolutely innocent civilians is utterly untenable. We can surely do better than we are doing.

For me, that is the screaming message that comes out of the disaster of the Iraq war. It is desperately easy to kill, to wound, to maim, to destroy, but how does one rebuild? It is the responsibility of those who take such decisions to have a plan for how peace, prosperity, justice and democracy can be established or restored. I have yet to read a detailed plan anywhere or by anyone as to how western nations that intrude upon other nations, as we did in Iraq, will do that. That is the most important step forward for the 21st century.

Desperate enmities have been created. The Iraq war was not the exclusive cause of those, but it was certainly a major player. As the hon. Members for Basildon and Billericay and for Brighton, Pavilion have said, those enmities are being played out on our streets by a minority of people, but we have also unleashed that horror on the world. It is our bound and duty—this House has an important part to play in this—to say that if anybody goes down that ridiculous—no, that is to make it much too banal—that desperate road, there must be a terminus at the end of the road that will produce, without any qualm whatever, the supposed desired result. That has not been brought about in Iraq, even though we were told that that was the main reason why the major power and its little assistant went into that war.

I say again, if any value has come from that disastrous foreign policy, it has to be that we have learned how never, ever to do it again.

13:03

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing this debate and on her passionate introduction, in which she put on the record her strong views. Clearly, there is still significance and passions are still aroused 10 years on.

I also congratulate the other two hon. Members who have spoken, my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson). I agree strongly with my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay about the importance of removing the fundamentals that give support to al-Qaeda and other terrorist organisations. He will be well aware that the United Kingdom has done that not just in Iraq, but in other conflict states, with a particular focus at the moment on Somalia and Mali.

More broadly, the United Kingdom has contributed directly towards reconstruction in Iraq. We have helped to provide vaccinations for millions of children, improve access to safe water for more than 1 million people in southern Iraq and provide additional electricity equivalent to that used by a city the size of Leeds. We have also trained tens of thousands of teachers and approximately 20,000 policemen and women.

The hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn was right to point out that this matter was a significant part of the lives of those of us who were Members of Parliament in 2003, and that it exercised both ourselves and our constituents. I would suggest that it was almost the only point of debate at the point in time when the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and others were deciding what they should do.

As the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion set out in her opening speech, the decision to go to war in 2003 was one of the key foreign policy decisions of the last decade. As I have said, I and other Members who were in the House at the time will remember it for ever. However, it is important to state at the outset that the policy of this Government is not to comment on the decision to go to war ahead of the report of the Chilcot inquiry. I will therefore not do so here, but will look at the future of Iraq and the UK’s relationship with Iraq.

[Caroline Lucas]

I am grateful to the Minister for his reference to the Chilcot inquiry. Can he advise us when we might expect to see the report and whether he is aware of machinations in the background on issues of declassification that are holding it up?

[Mark Simmonds]

If the hon. Lady will be patient, I will give the House an update on the Chilcot inquiry.

The decision to go to war has had long-lasting implications not only for Iraq, but for the region, the United Kingdom, our allies and international relations more broadly. Those implications are not necessarily yet clear, but they will be debated for many years to come. There were also more immediate implications. One hundred and seventy-nine British armed forces and Ministry of Defence personnel lost their lives in Iraq, as did a number of British civilians. We must also never forget the loss of life suffered by the Iraqi people. It is right that now, 10 years on from the start of the war, we remember all of them. We must also remember those who were wounded in the war and those who lost loved ones.

[Mr Leigh]

Those of us who opposed the war are often told, “If you’d had your way, Saddam would still be there.” Surely we are entitled to say that so would hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis, because they would still be alive.

[Mark Simmonds]

I understand the point that my hon. Friend makes. I say to him that the tragic loss of life, wherever it occurs, needs to be remembered. We must also bear in mind the huge disparities between the estimations of the number of Iraqi civilians who lost their lives. There needs to be better analysis of that. It must also be said that the vast majority of Iraqi civilians who lost their lives did so in terrorist incidents, not in military action.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

The Minister must be aware of the massive refugee problem that the war created. There are still 450,000 Iraqi refugees living in Jordan. Palestinian refugees who went to Iraq from the Gulf states were expelled from Iraq after the invasion. The refugee crisis in the region is enormous as a result of that war and the Syrian war. Does he have any comment to make on that?

[Mark Simmonds]

The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight the plight of refugees and displaced people. He will be aware of the significant contribution that the Department for International Development makes to support displaced people’s camps. The only long-term solution is to create stability and security in the middle east to enable people to return to the countries from which they originated.

[Paul Flynn]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mark Simmonds]

If I may move on, I want to make a few comments about the Chilcot inquiry because it has been one of the consistent themes in the speeches of Members so far and I am sure that other Members will comment on it as well. It is vital that we learn the lessons of the conflict. That, of course, is the fundamental and primary remit of Sir John Chilcot’s Iraq inquiry.

[Mr Baron]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mark Simmonds]

I want to make a little progress and then I will give way.

The inquiry is a complex and substantial task and it is considering an eight-year period. When he set up the inquiry, the then Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), described its scope as “unprecedented”, and Sir John has said that its final report is likely to exceed 1 million words.

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion asked when the process will be completed and the report published, and the short answer is that it is up to Sir John and his team. The inquiry is independent of the Government, although I assure the hon. Lady and other hon. Members that the Government are co-operating fully with it. Indeed, the Foreign Office alone has made some 30,000 documents available, which gives a further idea of the scale of the work. Those doing the inquiry have indicated that they intend to begin what is called the “criticism phase” of their work this summer. That will give individuals who may face criticism in the report the chance to make representations to the inquiry. Thereafter, the inquiry and Sir John will have to assimilate those representations into the final report. I do not have a definitive time scale for when that final report will be published, but it is essential that Sir John Chilcot and his colleagues do that work in a thorough and professional way.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

That is absolutely right and it is important that John Chilcot gets all the information required for the report. He will have seen the remarks by David Owen that hint at collusion by Tony Blair and the Prime Minister’s office to ensure that private correspondence between George Bush and Tony Blair will not be available to the inquiry. Can the Minister say that that will now be made available and that we will be able to see the private correspondence between Tony Blair and George Bush?

[Mark Simmonds]

Let me be clear with the hon. Gentleman. The debate about the private correspondence between Tony Blair and George Bush, and the Cabinet minutes from the time, concerns their public publication. The Chilcot inquiry has seen both sets of documents, which I hope goes some way to assuage the hon. Gentleman’s concerns.

[Paul Flynn]

The inquiry is already two years late given the date it originally promised to report and, as the Minister says, it is an important report. Had the United Kingdom not joined the war, Saddam would still have been removed and the war would have gone on because our support was not needed. The crucial point— I do not know whether the Minister has confirmed this—seems to be what Bush and Blair cooked up in 2002, because the decision to take the United Kingdom into the war was probably taken then. That is the essential point—not why the war took place, but why the United Kingdom was dragged into it by Tony Blair.

[Mark Simmonds]

That is part of Sir John Chilcot’s remit, and we must wait for the report to come out before the UK Government will comment on that.

[Mr Baron]

Is my hon. Friend at least able to accept that we went to war on a false premise and there were no weapons of mass destruction?

[Mark Simmonds]

No, I am not prepared to comment on that. As I said, the current Government will not comment on the process that led to participation in the Iraq conflict until after the Chilcot report has been published.

[Andrew George]

Even if the Government are not prepared to concede that point, does my hon. Friend agree that the issue raises questions about the capacity of Parliament to scrutinise the evidence? Even if we accept the evidence from the time at face value—although a lot of us were very sceptical of it—the only thing it concluded was that Saddam had the ability of potentially reaching UK assets in Cyprus within 45 minutes, and that was all. Was that really sufficient evidence for Parliament to decide that we should go to war?

[Mark Simmonds]

Those are all matters that Sir John Chilcot will be looking at, and I am sure my hon. Friend would prefer there to be an independent inquiry looking at what happened, rather than a Government inquiry. We have made a conscious decision not to comment on the decision to go to war until the inquiry has reported, but as I have said, I recognise that it was a decision of huge significance.

[Mr Baron]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mark Simmonds]

I want to make a little progress and I will be happy to give way later. We must not get into a position of prejudging the inquiry’s conclusions, but I am sure that—quite rightly—that will not prevent other Members of the House from having a full and frank debate as they put their views on the record this afternoon. I would also find it helpful to hear the views of Members on where Iraq might be in 10 years’ time, as well as reanalysing events that took place a decade ago. We should look forwards as well as backwards.

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion rightly set out some of the enormous challenges that Iraq still faces. Most visible and acute is the terrorist violence that continues to kill all too many people all too regularly, and I discussed that when I visited Baghdad in January—indeed, when I was in Baghdad a series of car bombs went off. In the past three months we have sadly seen an increase in such attacks, and the UN estimates that more than 1,000 people—mostly civilians—lost their lives in May alone. We continue to condemn utterly such acts, and almost all the Iraqi people believe that such violence has no place in their country’s future.

There are other longer term difficulties, and many fundamental political issues remain unresolved with no settled agreement on how power is to be shared. Ethnic and sectarian divisions remain, often exacerbated by those elsewhere in the region—particularly in Syria, as others have mentioned. Over the past six months, those factors have led to protests in west Iraq, and to disputes between Iraq’s political leaders that have prevented them from taking the decisions the country needs. That political deadlock holds back Iraq’s stability, and in turn its development. As has been rightly pointed out, public services and standards of living in much of Iraq remain poor, and corruption and bureaucracy are also problems that must be faced. As we consistently point out, Iraq’s human rights record remains a source of concern, from the Government’s increasing use of the death penalty to the recent removal of licences from some media stations.

[Mr Baron]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He is being generous, for which he is to be commended. May I take him back to the Chilcot inquiry? Probably like a lot of other Members, I have submitted evidence to that inquiry and we wait to hear its results. One thing Chilcot cannot do, however, is manufacture WMDs from his report. Given that the main pretext for war was WMDs, will the Minister at least accept the prima facie case that we went to war on a false premise because there were no WMDs?

[Mark Simmonds]

My hon. Friend makes the same intervention as five minutes ago. It may be that the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) wants to contribute to the debate and address that point, but I am not going to.

[Paul Flynn]

rose—

[Mark Simmonds]

I will make a little progress but I will be happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman a little later if he still insists.

My point is that the challenges Iraq faces are not the whole story. Although the level of violence is unacceptably high, it is noticeably lower than at its peak during the very dark days of 2006-07. Life across much of Iraq, particularly in the south and the Kurdistan region, is peaceful for most people most of the time. Three democratic national elections have been held since 2005 with another due next year, and in April, 8,000 candidates contested provincial elections across most of the country. Two further provinces will vote next week, and the rest in September.

Iraq’s economy has been transformed. According to the World Bank, its GDP has increased from approximately $19 billion in 2002 to roughly $116 billion in 2011. It is now forecast by the IMF to grow by 8% in each of the next five years. That growth will hopefully turn Iraq into one of the success stories of the next decade, and mean that people no longer see it as a post-conflict state, but as a key emerging economy.

The International Energy Agency world economic outlook predicts that Iraq will be responsible for nearly half the increase in global oil production over the coming decades, and its production could double by 2020. The hydrocarbons potential represents a huge opportunity to drive economic growth for the good of the maximum number of Iraqi people, if used responsibly and properly.

[Paul Flynn]

We went to Iraq to defend ourselves against non-existent weapons of mass destruction. We are now being prepared to go to war in Iran to protect ourselves against non-existent Iranian long-range missiles carrying non-existent Iranian nuclear bombs. The Minister cannot postpone the Government’s responsibility and say that we must wait for the Chilcot report, which will be produced this year, next year, some time or never. They must take a decision on Iran, possibly in the near future. Should we not be informed of the truth of what we did in 2003?

[Mark Simmonds]

The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to hear that he will not tempt me away from the well considered Government line on the Chilcot inquiry. I will not get into the details of the decision to go to war in Iraq in 2003. His point on Iran has been made by other hon. Members. I acknowledge and respect his perspective and views, but the international community has serious concerns about Iran’s nuclear programme. The Government continue to believe that the twin-track process of pressure and engagement offers the best hope of resolving the Iranian nuclear issue. We are not advocating military action against Iran, but all options should remain on the table.

To return to the positive side of Iraq, the Iraqi Government’s task is to build on that progress and make the most of the opportunities, ensuring that Iraq’s economy is booming, and that that translates into a better life for normal people throughout the country. Improving the country’s security, which has been fully under Iraqi control for 18 months, is vital, but the Iraqi Prime Minister and other political leaders need to find an inclusive political process to resolve the underlying tensions that, I acknowledge, remain, and therefore to reduce the space within which the extremists operate. In that context, I welcome the holding of last Sunday’s Cabinet meeting in Irbil, which I hope sends a signal of serious intent to improve relations between the Federal Government and that of the Kurdistan region.

No doubt many hon. Members will want to raise Iraq’s relations with the region. Increasingly, Iraq has been making progress on rebuilding its relationships with countries that were once adversaries. I was particularly pleased to note that the Kuwaiti Prime Minister met Prime Minister Maliki in Baghdad only yesterday. That is another sign of the increasing warmth of relations in the region.

The UK will continue to support Iraq as it faces those challenges. Indeed, the relationship between our countries is increasingly strong. That is true at the Government level. Four UK Ministers including myself have visited Iraq in the past nine months. We visited not only Baghdad, but Irbil and Basra—my right hon. Friend Lord Green, the Minister for Trade and Investment, visited Basra. We have relationships in the Defence Ministries—a meeting took place in London only this morning. I can assure the House that UK Ministers press the Iraqi Government and Ministers on a range of issues, including their plans to improve security.

Our relationship is strongly increasing on a commercial level. Exports were up significantly, and not only in the hydrocarbon sector. There are opportunities in sectors such as education, health care, infrastructure and financial services. The UK Government are doing what we can to help. For example, when the Foreign Secretary was in Iraq in September, he agreed we should set up a UK-Iraq ministerial trade council, which was launched in February by my colleague, the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), who has responsibility for the middle east.

We have opened a new visa application centre in Baghdad, and encouraged Iraqi Airways to schedule direct flights from London to Baghdad for the first time in more than two decades, which it has done. All of that will help to cement the closer ties between the UK and Iraq at individual level. Hon. Members will be aware of the large and significant Iraqi diaspora in the UK. Iraqi students are keen to study here, and we are even beginning to see British tourists return to the Kurdistan region.

Many other hon. Members wish to speak, so I shall draw my remarks to a conclusion. I hope those links continue to strengthen. It is right for us to look forward to the future of Iraq even as we look back on the events of 10 years ago. As I have said, the Government have not come to a conclusion and will not comment until we see Sir John Chilcot’s inquiry.

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that, to maintain internal security, which is vital to restoring the Iraq economy and keeping civil peace, we need to ensure that external actors in the region do not participate in stirring up ethnic conflict within Iraq?

[Mark Simmonds]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to make that point. When I was in Baghdad in January, there was significant concern across the political spectrum and the religious divides in Iraq about Syria, and about the potential spillover into Iraq. It is right that the international community, and the British Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary, focus on using all the levers they have to try to find a lasting political solution to the challenges in Syria.

Iraq is undoubtedly a country of great potential, with an economy that is expanding at 8%, but it has challenges. The UK wants to assist in resolving those challenges for the benefit of the maximum number of Iraqi people in the minimum time scale.

13:25

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for securing this important debate. She spoke powerfully and with great eloquence and passion. The hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) have said, essentially, that we need to learn profound lessons from the decisions made at the time of the Iraq vote 10 years ago and what has happened since. It is clear that the events and considerations of the Iraq vote set the context for the House’s current foreign affairs discussions on, for example, Syria and Iran. In that respect, at least one lesson has been learned.

I pay tribute to all those who died in the conflict in Iraq, remembering in particular those 179 British troops, who have been mentioned, who died in the service of their country. They served in profoundly difficult and dangerous circumstances, and we owe them a profound debt of gratitude.

The discussion has touched on the various and profound issues relating to the vote back in March 2003, and hon. Members have referred to the Chilcot inquiry. I am grateful to the Minister for the update he has provided today. We will consider the outcome of the inquiry very closely.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

My hon. Friend will have heard earlier interventions on the need for a war crimes Act in this country. The vote on Iraq was unprecedented, but the royal prerogative prevails, so the Prime Minister could take the country to war without a parliamentary vote. Does my hon. Friend believe it is now time for a war powers Act?

[Ian Lucas]

One often forgotten point is that the vote was unprecedented. The then Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who is behind me keeping an eye on me, deserve great credit for that. There was intense debate up to 2003, and the vote was important.

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Gentleman did not vote for the Iraq war. What part of the case for war did he not agree with? Several people said there was a solid case, but what made him vote against war?

[Ian Lucas]

The hon. Gentleman has beaten me to my next paragraph—I was about to mention my position in respect of the March 2003 vote, which I remember very well indeed. The Minister said that little else was in the minds of Members of Parliament at the time, and there was certainly little else in my mind. I made the decision to cast my vote against the Labour Government, the first of only two occasions when I have done that—I was right the other time, too—and I will explain why.

In 2003, I sat through the entire debate on the Back Benches, but was not called. It was only in 2006 that I had the opportunity to speak and explain why I had made my decision. I had an advantage then, because the weapons inspector Hans Blix had spoken following the end of the Iraq war. He said—this is very important—that in March 2003 his belief was that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. I believed, and still believe, that the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, also believed that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. It was on that basis that those who voted in favour of the war made their decision.

My decision was not made on the basis that I opposed any intervention, but that the weapons inspectors needed more time. I looked at all the evidence, thought long and hard, and decided that it was right and appropriate for me to vote against the war. I do not regret that decision and I never have. It is important to recognise that 139 Labour MPs made the same decision. Some suggestions that MPs were sent down the wrong path by representations made at the time could be put in a misleading way. Many of us made the decision on the basis of all the evidence we had at the time, and we made the correct decision.

[Paul Flynn]

I recall those days of great turmoil well. Does my hon. Friend think it is a matter of regret for this House that the three Committees we had to oversee these matters—the Intelligence and Security Committee, the Foreign Affairs Committee and the Defence Committee —were cheerleaders for the war and did not act with the kind of independent scrutiny that they perhaps should have?

[Ian Lucas]

I cannot pass judgment on the work of the Committees, because I have not looked in great detail at the position they took at the time. I am sure that the vast proportion of hon. Members will have made their decision honestly and in the way that they thought was right.

We know that the decision was important not just to Members of this House, but to an enormous number of people outside. It had a profound impact on British politics. As the Leader of the Opposition has said, the war led to a fundamental loss of trust in the Labour party, and it is right that the Labour party should acknowledge that. Those who knocked on doors in the subsequent general election were made well aware of that, which is one of the great qualities of our democracy.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend not just on the position he took 10 years ago, but on the way he is presenting his case today. A number of Labour MPs took the same decision. Indeed, if it had not been for the votes of the Conservative party and others, the motion would not have been carried. Has he given consideration to the suggestion that votes on war should be matters of conscience, and not be whipped?

[Ian Lucas]

The 2003 vote was whipped and I still did what I thought was right. Members of Parliament should always do what they think is right.

[Mr Straw]

May I echo the point made by my hon. Friend and by the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) that it was a whipped vote in name only? The vote was perfectly open. Given the extent of the rebellion on both sides, people were able to make their own judgments. Inside the Government, there was a clear expectation that anybody taking the Queen’s shilling would vote with the recommendation of the Cabinet, but it was open to Ministers to resign—two did, very honourably. Others chose to stay.

[Ian Lucas]

I think that votes on important matters in this House always have consequences. This vote had consequences for those MPs who did not support the Government on that particular occasion.

[Paul Flynn]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Ian Lucas]

May I make a little progress? I think I am getting stuck.

Regardless of individual positions taken by Members across the House at the time of the invasion, all of us agree that 10 years on we need to reflect on the consequences of the conflict and on the procedures that led to the vote, and to draw important lessons for the future.

As I touched on earlier, the Iraq war casts a long shadow over the House, setting the context for debates on foreign policy and, in particular, current debates on the middle east. Ten years on, the effect of the intervention on Iraq itself is that the negatives still outweigh the positives. There has been a protracted period of internal conflict within Iraq. As the Minister said, terrorist attacks continue, with people killed in Baghdad only this week.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for the tone he is adopting. It is refreshing to hear such personal thoughts from the Front Bench. I am concerned about what we did once the decision was made and we took responsibility for Basra. My concern, which I put to Clare Short, was why a diktat had gone around the Department for International Development to say that the war was illegal and that the Department should not have any involvement or take any responsibility. Does he agree that that put huge pressure on our armed forces, who created an umbrella of security but were unable to progress with governance and reconstruction?

[Ian Lucas]

The position of the troops following the war was one of the issues that weighed on my mind. It is always important to pay tribute to our troops. Following the vote, we asked them to serve and it was important that we supported both them and Iraq, so that it could develop and rebuild. The tragedy is that that did not happen. We need to focus on that issue and learn from it.

The massive instability in the middle east currently is caused partly by the Arab awakening and the response to it, but also by the perceived increased reluctance of the west to get involved in the region. I believe that the roots of that reluctance are the events in Iraq in 2003. There are, however, some positives. It is right to acknowledge that Saddam Hussein and his sons are no longer in power. None of us in this House mourn the passing of that dictatorship. That was brought home to me this week. I returned last night from a visit to the Iraqi region of Kurdistan, as a guest of the regional Government. It was my first visit to Iraq. In Barzan, I met victims of Saddam Hussein, including women who had lost husbands, their faces still etched with grief 30 years on. There is no doubt in the minds of Kurds—the victims of Halabja and the Anfal—that the 2003 intervention was justified. I also visited the Domiz refugee camp, where the Kurdistan regional government, working with UNHCR, has provided refuge to 150,000 fleeing Syrians, mainly Syrian Kurds. For someone who voted against the Iraq war, this was an important visit.

We must all today accept that foreign policy is made in the long shadow of the Iraq war—that cannot be denied—but it should inform, not paralyse policy. Intervention took place in Libya, authorised by the UN, backed by the UK Government and supported by the Labour Opposition. The consequences there are still unfolding, only serving to confirm the lesson of Iraq: that winning a military victory in the short term is merely the start of any process of building a stable and functioning democracy. Ten years on from the Iraq war, I saw earlier this week that in parts of Iraq we have the beginnings of a new democracy. Prime Minister Maliki visited Erbil on Sunday, as the Minister said, to work through issues and disputes that have arisen between the different parts of Iraq. A political process is going on to resolve those difficulties, and that is progress, but there are still massive challenges in Iraq and we must not overstate the progress made.

The international community is most effective when it works collectively, through the UN, to take necessary action. I hope and pray that the next decade will be defined by the kind of international co-operation that was regrettably absent in Iraq.

13:42

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for securing this debate, and it is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), who made an extremely moving speech.

I was not in the House for the 2003 vote, and I certainly do not want to focus on it today; I am far from sure that I would have made the right decision. In fact, I think I would have been on the wrong side in 2003. It was not until I was stuck in Iraq in 2003 that I saw what a mess it was. I want to reflect briefly, therefore, on the lessons we might be able to draw, not so much from the decision to intervene, but from the questions about how we got stuck there and why we find it so difficult to acknowledge our failure.

The starting point for any discussion of Iraq has to be an acknowledgment that it was a failure and a scandal. However we look at the costs and benefits of what happened there, it was probably the worst British foreign policy decision since the Boer war or the first Anglo-Afghan war of 1839. Never have the British Government made a worse decision. By that, I do not mean that had I been in the House I would have voted differently. In fact, I suspect that I would have voted in favour of the war, wrongly. I hope, however, that this is an opportunity to reflect on what Parliament is, what the Foreign Office is, what the military is and how Britain as a whole—or at least the British policy establishment—could get something so wrong.

This matters because there are many similarities between what we did in Iraq and what we are doing in Afghanistan, and many similarities between those things and what we occasionally think of doing in Mali or Syria. At the base of the problem is our refusal to acknowledge failure, to acknowledge just what a catastrophe it was, and the House’s refusal to acknowledge how bewildering it was, how little we know and how complicated countries such as Iraq are. Sitting in Iraq for 18 months from the middle of 2003 to 2005, I found myself facing, in a small provincial town called al-Amara, 52 new political parties, many of them swarming across the border from Iran and many of them armed.

Nobody in the Foreign Office or the military, and certainly nobody in the House, would have been able to distinguish between Hizb-e-Dawa, Harakat-Dawa, Majlis Ahla, Hezbollah—which turned out in the Iraqi context to consist of two men with a briefcase—or any of the other Shi’a Islamist groups that emerged. None of us in the British policy machine predicted in January 2005 that 90% of the votes in the south of Iraq would go to only three Shi’a Islamist parties. Everybody in the foreign policy machine then predicted that it would be different at the end of 2005, and we were all wrong again. Why were we wrong? We were wrong because we did not have the right relationship between politicians, diplomats, soldiers and the local reality of these countries. We have not got it right yet.

We have not got it right because it is not realistic today—as it was not realistic at the time of the Boer war or the first Anglo-Afghan war—to expect people in Parliament to be experts on the internal politics of Iraq. What really began to go wrong after the invasion, beyond the decision about WMD, was all to do with micro-relationships in Nasiriyah and al-Amara and in the relationships between the different grand ayatollahs in Najaf. These are not things that anyone in the Chamber, however well briefed, can pretend to understand or judge. Instead, we have to rely on the military, the Foreign Office and the intelligence agencies, and there the problem starts. The problem starts because the entire structure of our organisations—their incentives, their promotions, their recruitment, how they interact with policy makers, politicians and Ministers—does not help us ever to acknowledge failure. In fact, these institutions are designed to trap us in these countries.

Careers are made by people going out for short tours. I remind the House and those in the Foreign Office that the initial tours in Iraq were for six weeks, extended to three months, then to six months. The idea—that people living in heavily defended compounds, moving around in armoured vehicles, generally unable to speak a word of any local language, unable to interact with an Iraqi for more than half an hour or an hour at a time, except if surrounded by heavily armed men and operating through translators, could really get a sense of whether Iraq was stabilising or what, to use the Minister’s words, Iraq would be like in 10 years—was of course misleading. The advice and challenge that they could provide to the Government, therefore, was not good enough.

It is not good enough that not a single senior British diplomat formally recorded on paper their opposition to what was happening in Iraq. Many of those who were inside the system now say that they made private comments, that they were worried, but nobody, from the political director downwards, formally objected on paper to the Prime Minister.

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

Was that not compounded even further by the American Administration, where if someone questioned what was going on, either strategically or tactically, they were sent back to the states, their future career very much in question?

[Rory Stewart]

That is a very good point, and perhaps it is a way for me to wrap up my analysis of the Foreign Office. Of course, this is not a uniquely American problem. Within any British civil service Department, there is no great incentive to admit failure. When I look back at the reports I wrote stuck in al-Amara and Nasiriyah, I find it extraordinary how every week, I claimed great success. Every week, I would write, “We’ve hired another 300 people into the police. We’ve held a new sub-district election. I’ve just created 3,000 jobs. We’ve just refurbished another set of clinics and schools.” To read report after report, week after week, it looks as if the whole thing is getting better and better. In retrospect, I know differently, of course. When I began, I could go into the bazaar to get an ice cream, but by the end, I was stuck in my compound with 140 rocket and mortar-propelled grenades flying at the compound, and we had to abandon it and retreat back to a military base, essentially surrendering Nasiriyah, a city of 600,000 people, to the insurgents.

The situation is not helped by the way we talk about it in Britain today. We do not really think very much about Iraq. We do not think very much about what exactly Iraq is doing with Iran or Syria at the moment, why exactly Iraq got involved in dubious banking transactions to bust sanctions on behalf of the Iranian Government or why exactly our great ally, al-Maliki, appears to have been allowing trans-shipment of weapons from Iran into Syria. Why do we not think about these things? It is because we are not very serious. At some level, this country is no longer being as serious as it should be about foreign policy. Our newspapers are not writing enough about Iraq. The Foreign Office is not thinking enough about the failure. The military is not thinking enough about these things. Unless we acknowledge that something went wrong in Iraq and that something went deeply wrong in Afghanistan, we will get ourselves stuck again.

What do we do about it? We need to reform. It cannot be business as usual. We cannot just go around pretending it was all fine. We cannot simply blame Blair and Bush.

[Pete Wishart]

Is not the reason for us going to war in Iraq actually quite simple? Prime Minister Tony Blair had some perverse obligation to George Bush, and that is why we went in.

[Rory Stewart]

The hon. Gentleman has raised exactly the point that we need to talk about. We believe that somehow it is all the fault of Blair and Bush—this is the myth that has entered the national consciousness. My experience as someone inside the system is that we have to look much more deeply at ourselves. We need to look at the Foreign Office, the military, the intelligence services and Parliament. These people, Blair and Bush, do not operate in a vacuum; they operate in a culture that did not challenge and shape the debate sufficiently. It is not realistic for Blair or Bush to know deeply about these situations and it is simply a constitutional convention, of course, that the people who make the decision are the Blairs and the Bushes. However, if we look at what got us trapped on the ground in Iraq—at why, for example, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) found it difficult to get out of Iraq or why President Obama found it difficult to say no to the surge—it is because these people are part of a much bigger system.

The reform of that system is threefold. First, we need radically to reform the way in which the Foreign Office operates. The Foreign Secretary has begun; we need to go much further, thinking all the time about the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan. We need to focus on people with deep linguistic and cultural expertise. We need to ensure that we change all the bureaucratic mechanisms. The core competency framework for promotion in the Foreign Office needs to be changed. The amount that people are paid for learning languages in the Foreign Office needs to be changed. The posting lengths need to be changed. The security conditions for the Foreign Office need to be changed, because unless we begin to understand deeply and rigorously what is happening on the ground, it is difficult to challenge the Blairs and the Bushes.

[Caroline Lucas]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for making such a powerful speech, but when it comes to whether it is right or wrong to blame Bush and Blair, I think he is being a little too generous in his assessment of them. He is giving the impression that they were sitting waiting to hear what the evidence was, when it seems clear—certainly in the case of Bush and maybe in the case of Blair—that they had already made up their minds. They already had an agenda.

[Rory Stewart]

I am sure that much of that is true. I am not here to defend that decision—it was a terrible, catastrophic decision—but I think it is dangerous to put the whole blame simply on Blair and Bush, because the implication is that if we do not have Blair and Bush around, we will never get in these messes again. We will get in these messes again because we have not created the proper Government policy structures required to think these things through—not just to avoid the decision to invade, but above all to get out more rapidly once we have made a bad decision.

Military reforms—you have very kindly given me some time, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I do not have enough to talk about this today—involve accepting that the military have too much power in the policy debate. That is not the military’s fault: they are filling a vacuum. The military feel that the Foreign Office is not taking the lead and that somebody needs to do something. I saw that all the time on the ground in Iraq. I remember a major-general saying to me, “The diplomats and aid workers aren’t doing anything, so we”—the military—“need to take those things over,” but that is not the military’s job. It is extremely dangerous, because its puts generals in positions where they make optimistic predictions about their capacity to sort things out, albeit without a detailed understanding of the politics or the reality of those aspects of governance or diplomacy.

We in Parliament need to look at ourselves—it is on this that we need to conclude. The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) was exactly right to ask us to look hard at how the Select Committee on Defence, the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and the Intelligence and Security Committee got this wrong. What reforms have we introduced to those Committees to ensure that we do not get it wrong again? How do we as Members of Parliament operate in a very complicated world? It is not realistic for any of us in this Chamber to understand exactly what the difference is between Harakat-Dawa, Hizb-e-Dawa and Hizb-e-Dawa Islamiya. Everybody is learning desperately from briefs, trying to sound plausible, but there are 200 nations in the world. Ministers are busy. Politicians are busy; they are worrying about their constituents. They are not deep experts on these issues. We therefore need to create a system that we can rely on in the Foreign Office, the military and the intelligence services. We in Parliament need to know how to question those people, how to listen to them and how to promote people who disagree with us. We need in Parliament to learn how to look at which civil servants got it wrong and hold them accountable, rather than promoting, as we did, almost everybody who was implicated in the Iraq decisions.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

rose—

[Rory Stewart]

I am coming to the end.

Finally, we need above all to learn—I feel, as a new Member of Parliament, and with all deference to this House—a lesson of humility.

13:56

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I am very pleased that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has been able to secure today’s debate. It is timely, obviously, and it is important that we should have plenty of time to talk about this issue, even 10 years down the line. She made a fine and impassioned speech and set the tone for the debate.

I do not always see eye to eye with the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), who speaks for the Labour party, but I must say that he made a very fine speech. It was a balanced speech, it came from the heart and it was refreshing to hear such a speech from the Front Bench. It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), who speaks with great knowledge about things diplomatic and military. They are things that I know very little about—I will place that on the record now, lest it becomes too obvious later on.

[Paul Flynn]

Does the right hon. Gentleman follow the significant point made by the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) about the unimportance of being right on these decisions? Those who sided with error saw their careers flourish, while those who were right and objected to their Ministries saw their careers wither.

[Mr Llwyd]

That is absolutely right, obviously. That is a feature of the system that we are all embroiled in at the moment, imperfect—greatly imperfect—as it is.

I want to start by quoting something that was said recently:

“I let Parliament have the final say on me decision to go to war. I made statements, answered questions, took part in debates. But in the end there was a decision that had to be made: on the basis of the information available, to decide whether to join the US coalition and remove Saddam; or to stay out. I decided we should be in. The job of the Prime Minister is to make such decisions based on what he believes is in the interests of the country.”

Those words are taken from the end of former Prime Minister Blair’s statement to the Chilcot inquiry—an inquiry that, as we have heard, has so far failed to report, despite almost exactly four years having passed since it was first announced in this place by the then Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). As I shall briefly outline today, I have reservations about the Chilcot inquiry, which I suspect was as flawed and compromised from the outset as the then Government’s decision to go to war.

Let me nail one other myth. The Liberal Democrats are very pleased to go around saying that they were the only party to vote against. We voted against, the Scottish National party voted against and many Members of other parties voted against. We were described as jellyheads and all kinds of things.

[Martin Horwood]

I do not recall us often saying that we were the only party to vote in that way. I am happy to acknowledge publicly the support of Plaid Cymru and the other parties that stood alongside the Liberal Democrats in the Chamber in opposing the war. Is not the truth that the most chilling words were those of Tony Blair in the recent BBC documentary, when he said that he had reflected that it was time to remake the middle east? Did not the combination of that kind of messianic leadership and the enormous momentum towards war mean that no amount of political or even expert diplomatic advice would have changed their minds?

[Mr Llwyd]

I am very pleased to agree with the hon. Gentleman. He has made a good input into the record.

Between 2002 and 2003, my then Plaid Cymru colleagues Adam Price and Simon Thomas and my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), along with our colleagues in the SNP, were unanimous in our opposition to the incursion into Iraq and, on 18 March 2003, we voted against the invasion. We did not believe then, and nor have we ever believed, that the dossiers produced by the then Government displayed any credible threat from Saddam Hussein’s regime. In the words of Mr Blair that I quoted a moment ago, the former Prime Minister said that he had let Parliament have the final say on whether we should go to war, but the motion on which Parliament voted asserted:

“That this House…recognises that Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction and”—

crucially—

“long range missiles, and its continuing non-compliance with Security Council Resolutions, pose a threat to international peace and security”.—[Official Report, 18 March 2003; Vol. 401, c. 760.]

The motion was flawed in several regards, so we were meant to vote on a flawed motion in any event, quite apart from the fact that the evidence did not stack up to create a credible or immediate threat from Saddam’s regime. Thus the basis on which Mr Blair led Parliament to decide was a false premise. The jury is still out on the extent to which Mr Blair and the Cabinet knew that the claims were counterfeit.

On the day after the House voted for the invasion, the Prime Minister said:

“We want to ensure that any post-conflict authority in Iraq is endorsed and authorised by a new United Nations resolution”.—[Official Report, 19 March 2003; Vol. 401, c. 932.]

There were of course those of us who argued even then that the Government were not acting under the endorsement of an existing UN Security Council resolution, because as Sir Jeremy Greenstock admitted, there was no automaticity in resolution 1441 and our incursion into Iraq was therefore illegal under international law.

On 24 November 2004, an impeachment motion was tabled in the name of myself, the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier), Douglas Hogg QC and the First Minister of Scotland. The motion had been supported, in writing or otherwise, by 24 Members of this House, but it was never called for debate. However, the Impeach Blair campaign had the support of the Stop the War Coalition, the Green party, Frederick Forsyth, Terry Jones, Brian Eno, the late Harold Pinter, the late Corin Redgrave, the late Jimmy Reid and, last but by no means least, the late—alas—Iain Banks.

With hindsight, and following debates on this topic, that one sentence of Mr Blair’s seems almost to override all else: he had decided that “we should be in”. He had made that decision without a second UN resolution, when most of the world was against the incursion. He had decided that the UK would lend its support to President Bush’s war on terror, whatever the cost. Let us be realistic; Bush had the might to do this in short order in any event. He wanted a cloak of legitimacy, and that is how he lured Tony Blair in to support him—and at what a cost it has proven to be.

Today, Iraq is the state fifth most at risk of terrorism in the world, and the eighth most corrupt. It is a country marred by car bombs and corruption. Under the Shi’a Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, power is divided along ethnic lines. Economically and physically, the country has been all but destroyed. In a poll published in September 2011, 42% of Iraqis said that they were worse off as a result of the invasion, compared with only 30% who thought themselves in some way better off.

The war has arguably resulted in the other members of the so-called axis of evil, Iran and North Korea, obtaining nuclear weapons, and the risk of terrorism at home has definitely increased. We have heard quotes from Eliza Manningham-Buller and others on that subject. There is no basis for claiming that al-Qaeda had a real presence in Iraq before 2003, but the war itself has established one. The human cost has also been devastating. Between March 2003 and the end of UK operations in May 2011, 179 UK armed forces personnel died as a consequence of operations in Iraq. Of those, 136 were killed in combat. I join other Members across the House in paying tribute to them. Whatever foreign policy decisions are arrived at in this place, they always do their best and carry out their duties bravely. I respect them for that. The question of whether the war was lawful or otherwise is our problem.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I accept everything that the right hon. Gentleman is saying, but does he not agree that there also needs to be some reflection on the treatment of prisoners in Abu Ghraib and elsewhere, and on the many atrocities that were perpetrated on ordinary Iraqi people by occupying troops in that country?

[Mr Llwyd]

Absolutely; the hon. Gentleman is quite right. He also voted against the war and took part in the debates at the time. We have not even touched on that important subject in today’s debate, but I hope that, if he catches the Deputy Speaker’s eye, he will develop that theme. It is vital that it should be brought into the debate.

According to the Iraq Body Count project, an unofficial survey of Iraqi civilian casualties, between 113,000 and 123,000 civilians have died as a result of violence in Iraq since March 2003. According to the same source, 883 civilians died in May 2013—the highest number of civilian deaths in any month since April 2008. That is the ugly legacy of this war.

Let me tell the House that it gives me no satisfaction whatever to stand here today and say that we who voted against the motion were proved right. The damage to Iraq, has, as they say, already been done. However, many unanswered questions remain about our descent into war in the spring of 2003. I want to quote from the words spoken by the then Member for Blaenau Gwent, Llew Smith, who said:

“We…need to know whether Ministers simply proved to be very bad judges of geopolitics, stubbornly refusing to listen to the millions who marched against the war…or—worse—deliberately distorted the evidence, cherry-picked the details that suited their case for invading Iraq, and pressed the Attorney-General to provide an opinion that endorsed a political decision already taken two years earlier to invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam.”—[Official Report, 9 March 2004; Vol. 418, c. 1426.]

Personally, I have little doubt that the evidence was indeed distorted, as the decision to go to war had already been made months, if not years, before a motion was ever put before the House. I saw proof of this dating from 2002, and I will return to that point later if I may.

On 9 March 2004, I opened a debate calling for the advice of the Attorney-General on the legality of the war in Iraq to be published in full. I said during that debate that Treasury counsel would have received instructions when they were advising the Attorney-General, and that, had counsel been ill informed or misled in those instructions, the advice would have been flawed ab initio. I said that it was of the utmost importance to establish whether the instructions given by the Attorney-General contained reference to the now infamous 45-minute claim. Had these instructions contained such references and had counsel accepted them as valid, the whole basis of that advice would obviously have been flawed. I made it clear in the debate that the ministerial code holds no bar on publishing such advice. In fact, the code states:

“Holders of public office should be as open as possible about all the decisions and actions they take. They should give reasons for their decisions and restrict information only when the wider public interest clearly demands.”

I argued at the time and I argue now that it is in the wider public interest on going to war that disclosure should be made, for heaven’s sake. What is more, I set out the precedents for publishing the advice of the Attorney-General—including, for example, the Belfast riots and the Archer-Shee cases. I cited the opinions of five distinguished international lawyers who each had differing views about whether the war in Iraq had been legal, but who were unanimously in favour of publishing in full the advice of the Attorney-General. One of these, James Crawford, who was then—and still is, I believe—professor of international law at Cambridge, observed:

“If the war was conducted in private, there would be every case for hiding the advice. If it’s going to be fought with public funds, in public and expending the lives of members of the public, then it should be published”.

Another, Lord Archer, QC, said that the Attorney-General’s arguments constituted

“the most important legal opinion given in the last quarter of a century.”

To this day, however, that advice has remained unpublished.

Interestingly, that debate was tabled by us in Plaid Cymru and our friends in the Scottish National party. What I think was then a joint group of nine secured a vote of about 285, as I recall, so there clearly was some concern around, and I am pleased that we brought the matter to the fore.

As I have outlined before, in 2002 I was sent documents from an unknown source which put me in no doubt whatever that Mr Blair had been determined to go to war with Iraq from the very outset. The documents had with them a note saying that they were top secret documents, some British and others appearing to emanate from other intelligence sources—American, I believe. The documents showed me that as early as 2001-02, discussions were being held about toppling Saddam, in which mention was made of the term “regime change”—which we all know is unlawful in international law.

Soon after I received the memorandums, my then colleague, Adam Price, and I were visited by two senior police officers from a special section of the Metropolitan police. I did not have the documents in my personal possession at the time, so I was unable to surrender them to those police officers. When the Chilcot inquiry was established in 2009, however, I decided to hand over the documents. I searched for them, found them and handed them over to the inquiry. I took them down to Victoria street and handed them over to the secretary of the inquiry, Ms Margaret Aldred.

Several months went by without my receiving any response to my submission. Nine months later, following a number of unanswered letters, I was finally granted the courtesy of a reply. As a result of this treatment, I had my misgivings about the secretariat of the inquiry, which I set out in full during a Westminster Hall debate on the issue on 25 January 2011.

Suffice it to say here that I discovered that Ms Aldred, the gatekeeper for the inquiry, who had previously acted as the Cabinet’s deputy head of foreign and defence policy secretariat, was put forward for her new role, in which she would inquire into the actions taken in that same foreign and defence policy, by the Cabinet Secretary himself, Sir Gus O’Donnell. The potential conflict of interest was breathtaking. I discovered that in her previous role, Ms Aldred had regularly chaired the Iraq senior officials group. Let us not forget either that it was the Cabinet Office, for which Ms Aldred had worked previously, that drew up plans for regime change and that it was the Cabinet Office and the Joint Intelligence Committee and its staff that produced the “dodgy dossier”. Her hands were hardly clean for that particular job. Thanks to the detective work of Dr Chris Lamb and others, we further discovered that this appointment had not followed the procedures set out in the civil service code and was neither open nor indeed transparent. I countered that her appointment to this role obviously made it questionable whether the inquiry was a Cabinet Office subsidiary. In the continued absence of the Chilcot inquiry’s report into the war, I am unable to comment further on this issue. But let us not hold our breath, folks.

[Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

By way of a parallel and supporting point for the case that the right hon. Gentleman has just made, when I was a Back-Bench Member of the Education Committee in the last Parliament, there was an independent inquiry led by Lord Sutherland. I found out that the personal secretary to the permanent secretary at the Department for Education was one of the tiny number who made up this “independent inquiry” team. In fact, when we looked at the report in Word, we could see who authored certain parts of it. It was frightening to discover that the author of the section that exculpated the Department from all responsibility for the SATs fiasco was none other than the former personal secretary to the permanent secretary at that Department.

[Mr Llwyd]

There we are—another unhappy coincidence. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, which shows that this kind of conduct may be prevalent in this place. Clearly, going back to what was said by the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border, we need to look more into the procedures of this place and to challenge them; otherwise, we might be in throes of a similar disastrous position again. There is a still a catalogue of unanswered questions.

In a memorandum from Mr Blair to his chief of staff, Jonathan Powell, dated 17 March 2002, which was unpublished until the Chilcot inquiry, Mr Blair says of the problems in Iraq:

“The immediate WMD problems don’t seem obviously worse than three years ago. So we have to re-order our story and message.”

Why, then, did he tell Parliament mere months later that Iraq’s WMD programme was growing? The re-ordering to which Mr Blair referred in his memo was his decision to focus on Saddam’s monstrous nature. He went on to say:

“A political philosophy that does care about other nations—eg. Kosovo, Afghanistan, Sierra Leone—and is prepared to change regimes on the merits, should be gung-ho on Saddam.”

There can be little wonder, then, why Hans Blix was denied the further two months he had requested to continue his weapons inspection in Iraq. His testimony would not have been necessary.

I noticed that when we began this debate, the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) was firing off interventions at a rapid rate at my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion. If his points were so valid and so worthy of consideration, it is a shame that he did not stand his ground and make a speech, as we are all doing.

Mr Blair began this same memo to his chief of staff by saying:

“I do not have a proper worked-out strategy on how we would do it…I will need a meeting on this with military folk.”

“It”, we can surmise, refers to military action. Mr Blair had evidently decided, even in March 2002, that “we should be in”—despite the fact that, as I have said, regime change is unlawful under article 2, paragraph 4 of the United Nations charter.

What is all the more deplorable is the fact that Mr Blair’s deception in the run-up to the vote in March 2003 had disastrous consequences for post-invasion Iraq. Military plans were not constructed properly because they were not properly discussed. In his evidence to Chilcot, Mr Blair admitted that only 14 of the 28 meetings he held with key figures to discuss the possibility of war were in fact minuted. The most compelling documents, of course, have not been made public. The still classified material includes the exchanges between the former Prime Minister and President Bush.

In March 2005, I visited Iraq, going to Baghdad and Basra. During the visit, which was arranged by the Foreign Office, I had the opportunity to meet local politicians and women’s groups as well as national politicians and trade unionists in Baghdad. It was obvious that while there had been great efforts to plan for war, there had been little or no effort to plan for the peace. There were open sewers and people were complaining—I presume that the Foreign Office approved of our meeting these people. They were saying openly that they used to have electricity, running water and a decent sewerage system, but that they had nothing of that kind now. I am led to believe that, in many instances, that remains the position. We have left the country in a terrible state.

We met several senior military officers. It is interesting that they were prepared to confide to someone like me, who could hardly be described as a renowned establishment figure, their concern about the lawfulness of their being in Iraq in the first place. They were greatly concerned about whether the war was legal. I gave them my opinion, for what it was worth, but I also told them “You are doing your duty, as you are trained to do. Any question of illegality is not on your desk, but on the desks of people like me—the politicians back at home—so please do not divert your attention to that and put yourselves in harm’s way.” However, I respect the fact that they were asking those questions then; it demonstrates the feelings that were around at the time.

Saddam, as we knew, would be overthrown in days, or weeks at the most. The Americans could have done it themselves. The only plan for peace was to allow some limited western-funded repair of the Iraqi infrastructure to be carried out by American companies in which the neo-cons advising Bush had considerable financial interests. There is no interest now in returning Iraq to anything resembling a 21st-century country. Shame on them!

In February, Caroline Hawley, the BBC’s Baghdad correspondent between 2003 and 2005, wrote this in the New Statesman about her recent return to Iraq:

“Iraq remains a troubled place. During my recent visit, I saw little of its restored oil wealth being spent on badly needed social services. The nation, collectively traumatised, has only three child psychiatrists. The ubiquitous checkpoints and blast walls fail to stop…many bombers. Iraqis complain of rampant corruption. Nouri al-Maliki’s Shia-dominated government is seen as increasingly autocratic and its relations with the country’s Sunnis continue to sour. That Iraqis now seem to be fighting on both sides of Syria’s war…doesn’t bode well.”

As we teeter on the brink of entering yet another conflict in the middle east, I urge the Prime Minister and his Cabinet to learn from the obvious mistakes of our recent history. Mr Blair decided that we should go in; the history books will be the judge of why.

14:22

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), who secured the debate. I am very pleased to be participating in it. I also pay tribute to those on both Front Benches, who gave us an evocative, and also reflective, perspective on the war. I agree that this is not an anniversary but an analysis—an analysis that is crucial for the future of foreign policy, for people’s trust in Government, and for the institutions surrounding the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development.

I pay tribute to our soldiers, and also to the civilians in Iraq who have lost their lives. I was pretty horrified by the fact that, for the first couple of years, the Americans in particular seemed to have no interest in counting the civilian casualties. It struck me as extraordinary that we, who had entered the country on behalf of the civilians of Iraq as, in many respects, their advocate against their authoritarian leader, did not pay enough attention to what was happening even to count the number of those civilians who had lost their lives.

I became involved in Iraq in 1993, just after the ejection of Saddam Hussein from Kuwait. My responsibility was to travel around the capitals of Europe highlighting Saddam’s human rights abuses. Halabja has been mentioned; I was there, showing videos of people’s suffering. I was in and out of Kurdish police stations where the police showed videos of torture to their prisoners before embarking on torture themselves. This was a brutal, disgusting regime. Saddam Hussein’s authoritarianism ran through the veins, and created fear in every single household in Iraq.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

The hon. Lady is right to highlight Iraq’s appalling human rights record during that period, but will she reflect on the fact that Britain was selling arms to Iraq throughout it? Even after Halabja, Britain took part in the Baghdad arms fair of 1989, and continued to supply weapons right up to the start of the Gulf war.

[Laura Sandys]

That is evidently true. I am in no doubt about our relationship with Saddam Hussein, or about our relationships with many leaders around the world. Those relationships involve big ethical issues. What I am highlighting is human rights abuse, the brutalisation of a country by a man and his family, and the fact that such a small group of people were able to hold Iraq in so much fear.

It was against that backdrop that I was explicitly, and very vocally, opposed to our invasion of Iraq. I do not claim to be a great expert on Iraq like my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), but I had a little more insight into Iraq—its dynamics, and the interrelationship between the different communities there—than most people, and I felt at that time that the debate was extremely superficial. It was group-think. It was very binary. It was us and them. It was evil people and good people. As can be seen throughout the international foreign affairs perspective, the “cowboys and Indians” analogy works very poorly except for those who are sitting on the very outside.

I was a member of the Conservative party at the time, although not a member of the House of Commons, and I recall the cacophony. Does anyone remember how many times Richard Perle came over and appeared on television shrieking with fear and anticipation of our untimely demise? There were the neo-cons, and there were some colleagues who adopted quite a shrill tone. I was very concerned about the war and I wanted us to get rid of Saddam Hussein, but to do so by means of other mechanisms. I wanted Iraqi solutions to the Saddam Hussein problem. However, I found myself being accused of being anti-war, accused of being a pacifist, and accused of walking away from trouble. Well, those who know me are aware that it is unusual for me to be seen to be walking away from trouble.

The question of weapons of mass destruction was a fascinating aspect of the situation. Many Members have explained the whole issue of Hans Blix and the inspectors; however, those who, at the time, kept saying “But Saddam Hussein is not standing up and saying he has no weapons of mass destruction” did not understand enough about the regime itself. None of them understood the position that Saddam was in. At that moment, just before the war, he was extremely weakened—weakened internally. The republican guard had started to create a fair amount of tension in his regime, although the special republican guard was still on his side.

Saddam Hussein—the man of terror, the man of weapons of mass destruction—could not stand up and say “I do not have these weapons.” We were asking him to do something that would have constituted, in a sense, the disarming of every element of authority that he had. We were asking him to do something that he was not going to do, although many of us knew—and I worked with military intelligence during the war—that the weapons did not exist, or at least had an extremely limited capacity.

[Ian Lucas]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady, first for giving way, secondly for her kind comments, and, thirdly, for making a powerful case for the importance of an Opposition holding a Government to account in relation to events in the middle east. Is that not a very important lesson for this Government?

[Laura Sandys]

Opposition on an issue such as this can come from all sorts of different directions.

It was frightening to see how the group-think had emerged and how, for example, the issue of 45 minutes to London arose. Do we remember that claim? The Evening Standard front page was in many ways a motivation, a call to action, and I was told by friends, colleagues and people who I would say are less than colleagues, “Laura, your position in being against the war is putting families in London at risk.” The debate became really quite vicious. It was not friendly, and it was not constructive in respect of understanding Iraq per se and—I say this having worked in the defence sector myself, and having worked in academia in the defence sector—understanding the potential and the possibilities of ballistic missiles.

What was fascinating about that whole 45-minutes-to-London claim is that No. 10 said afterwards, “Oh, we didn’t endorse that leak, wherever it came from,” but did they question it or contest it, saying to the Evening Standard and the other newspapers, “This actually is wrong”? That was an omission that allowed untruths to permeate the debate and created a very toxic environment, in which, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, an opposition needed to thrive.

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Lady is absolutely correct about the untruths and all the other issues she has raised, but how come they were so easily accepted by the Opposition? The right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), who was then Leader of the Opposition, was probably more enthusiastic about this war than Tony Blair was.

[Laura Sandys]

The hon. Gentleman will have to ask them. I was not a Member of this House at the time. However, lots of people from very different political perspectives—people on the right, the left and across the board—were against the war, and there were also people from all the parties who felt it was the right thing to do. I would also say this to the hon. Gentleman: I have seen some of the videos, and I have spoken to people who were tortured by Saddam Hussein, and I can see why people right across the board might have found the humanitarian motive extremely compelling.

One of the gravest failings was mainly constructed in America: the lack of planning post-Saddam and for the future. From my perspective, that was extraordinary. I was part of the “red team” working with military intelligence, and we met three times a week in the run-up to the Iraq war and then during the Iraq war. The minute the so-called conflict stopped, we were all disbanded because we were not needed—because there was no need for anybody with any expertise in Iraq, because the roses were going to be thrown on to the tanks and the Americans and the Brits were going to be embraced in every street, and there were going to be parties and we were going to have liberation right across the board. That naivete was, as has been said, in many ways a result of the lack of opposition and the lack of questioning of every element of the implications of this intervention.

I have subsequently heard that there were two opportunities for our armed forces to support the Iraqis to topple Saddam: as we arrived in Kuwait as part of our preparations for war, and as we were arriving close to Baghdad. At both times, leaders in the republican guard—not the special republican guard—approached the allies and said, “Can we instigate a revolt against Saddam? Then we will invite you in to support us.” That has received very little coverage and created little interest, but, from what I understand, there is truth in it, and I would be interested to see some of the papers to get to the bottom of it. We were there, and if our objective was to get rid of Saddam Hussein, we should have understood that it was important to do that in conjunction with the many forces and interests within Iraq that wanted to get rid of that brutal dictator.

My final point is that we must learn the lessons of history. I suspect my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border, and many other Members, would agree with me on that. We went into Iraq in 1917 and had a very difficult and torrid time, and many of the issues we faced in 2003 were identical, both in intention and implication. We must make sure that we do not end up across the region with three countries: a Sunni country, a Shi’a country and a Kurdish country. My group at King’s college at that time was explicit about that, and we see the same issue arising again now in relation to Syria. If we end up with those sorts of conflicts arising over the next few years, we will have to see our invasion of Iraq as being the first step in causing some deep fragmentation, some great destabilisation and some great global challenges, faced as a result of this decision on Iraq, which was not well thought through.

14:36

[Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing this debate from the Backbench Business Committee, and for her forceful, eloquent and moving opening speech. It is difficult to say the same of the Minister, who, constrained by the unpublished Chilcot report, chose to say, in almost half an hour, very little of substance, although he did give what I thought was a distinctly Panglossian view of the improvement in the state of Iraq, grossly overstating the case.

There has, however, been a great degree of honesty and frankness from all Members, which is extremely refreshing. I particularly congratulate in that context my colleague on the Front Bench, my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), and although it is always invidious to pick out one person, I thought the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) gave a remarkable speech, making what I think, in my lengthy experience, must be a unique statement in this Chamber: that we should be more willing to admit our own failings. It is true that there is more joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, but that is not a doctrine we normally find expounded here.

I want to go over some of the fundamentals. Now, 10 years on, the facts cannot seriously be held in doubt, and they are stark. The United States went to war in Iraq because of oil and because American control of the middle east region was considered important for their foreign policy, as clearly set out in the Project for a New American Century document published by the Bush election team in September 2000. As we now know from then US Treasury Secretary O’Neill, that war was planned from the very first day of the Bush Administration, and 9/11 simply provided the pretext for launching it.

The United Kingdom went to war because President Bush wanted UK support. I do not think there is any doubt that at the Crawford summit in April 2002, the then Prime Minister Tony Blair in effect committed to providing that support, publicly pledging that he was going to stand shoulder to shoulder with President Bush. From that point on, the assessment of the intelligence data conflated analysis into advocacy, to find a rationale for the war which had already been decided on for other reasons. That, I believe, is the explanation.

The decision having been made to go to war, Whitehall provided a briefing that any rationale depended on being able to show incontrovertible evidence of large-scale—I emphasise: large-scale—activity by Iraq to obtain weapons of mass destruction, but because the UN inspectors had left Iraq in 1998, evidence was non-existent or certainly flimsy. The CIA admitted that its resources on Iraq were “thin” and the UK’s Joint Intelligence Committee had already concluded, in March 2002, that

“Intelligence on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction . . .and ballistic missile programmes is”—

in words we will always remember—

“sporadic and patchy.”

The key point is that in the evidence put together in those crucial five months between the Crawford summit and the publication of the September dossier to justify the war, all the specific data were flawed. The first and central point is that the inventory of chemical and biological weapons and weapon parts that the then Prime Minister presented to the House dealt with weapons that were unaccounted for in the first Gulf war, 12 years earlier, but they were not presented as weapons that were unaccounted for; they were presented as weapons that Saddam Hussein was definitely believed to possess.

Secondly, the 45-minute claim referred to battlefield nuclear weapons, but the impression given was that the threat went much wider.

[Pete Wishart]

The case for going to war was bunkum and nonsense, but the right hon. Gentleman voted for the war. Does he feel that he was lied to, misled or duped?

[Mr Meacher]

Yes—I am glad the hon. Gentleman has given me the opportunity to say, in the spirit of honesty and frankness of this debate, that I am utterly ashamed of what I did on that occasion. It is the worst political mistake that I have made in my lifetime, but I want to say why I did it. I did it because I listened carefully to the then Prime Minister during those two crucial debates. He spoke with enormous assurance and authority, and I believed that, as Prime Minister of this country, he would have been presented with the fullest degree and comprehensiveness of UK intelligence, and he would use those data in a proper and honest manner to make the case. Perhaps I was naive to think that—I now believe that I was—but that is what I believed. I am speaking today because I am so angry at having been deceived. That experience has deeply damaged my trust in the role of Prime Ministers and in the link between intelligence and the various Departments of State and the Prime Minister, who speaks for the Government. I hope that that will be repaired in future, but the damage done has been considerable, certainly to me.

I was talking about the 45-minute claim referring to battlefield nuclear weapons. When the media took it up—the hon. Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) forcefully recalled the Evening Standard headline—that was not corrected, even though the authorities knew very well that the wrong impression was being given.

Thirdly, the claim that Iraq tried to buy 500 tonnes of yellowcake, which is required for nuclear fission, from Niger was included in the dossier, despite its having been confirmed by a visit by the former US ambassador to that country six months before that it was completely bogus. None the less, the claim was included.

The fourth point, which is very important but which has received little attention, is that the then Prime Minister of this country claimed to the House on 25 February 2003 that the defection of Hussein Kamel, Saddam’s son-in-law, in 1995 had revealed

“the offensive biological weapons and the full extent of the nuclear programme”.—[Official Report, 25 February 2003; Vol. 400, c. 123.]

However, as we now know, from a Newsweek exclusive just a few weeks later, what Hussein Kamel actually said during his debriefing was precisely the opposite. He said:

“All weapons—biological, chemical, missile, nuclear—were destroyed.”

[Caroline Lucas]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the tenor of his speech and for putting that fact more strongly in the public domain. To clarify: that piece of information was available in February 2003. The fact that it was covered up to such an extent—not even covered up, but completely contradicted—is one of the most shocking deceits in this whole process.

[Mr Meacher]

I entirely agree. That is precisely why I feel so let down by someone who was in the unique role of Prime Minister behaving in such a way. I do not expect any Prime Minister of any party ever to behave in that way.

As the Butler report points out so poignantly, all the ifs, buts, qualifications and caveats in the raw intelligence data were dropped from the dossier, while the positive allegations were distinctly overhyped. We all know that. Sources were treated as reliable when they were clearly not, and they were not checked against the expertise of intelligence staff. Anyone who has read appendix B of the Butler report, which was excellently put together, can see set out, step by step, how the massaging and accretion steadily accumulated until we were told in the final September dossier that Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction programme was—in words that have echoed for the past 10 years—“active, detailed and growing” and that the intelligence on which that judgment was based was “extensive, detailed and authoritative”. In fact, as we now know, Blair had been told just over a month previously, by the UK intelligence community, that

“we…know little about Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons work since late 1988”.

The first great issue is accountability in relation to the Prime Minister’s own judgment, his deceitful presentation and his over-eagerness to take Britain into a war on grounds that far exceeded the evidence to justify them. One cannot take a country into a war under false pretences and then proclaim, as the Butler committee did, that no one can be held responsible.

Indeed the most striking characteristic of the Butler report is this disjunction between analysis and judgment. It is excellent on analysis and very poor, very cautious and very fearful about judgment. It catalogues a litany of failures and then pulls all its punches by declaring that, in effect, no one was to blame. I have to say that George Tenet was sacked as head of the CIA for intelligence failures over Iraq, but John Scarlett, who held the equivalent position in the UK and was equally responsible for the intelligence failures, is still recommended by the report for promotion, despite all the damning evidence in the report to the contrary. It is a very British establishment charade, when what is really needed is genuine accountability. I think everyone on all sides of the House is seeking that. But that the excuse is made that no one can be held to account and that it just somehow happened is completely unacceptable.

[Mr Ellwood]

The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful speech but, on the point about the Joint Intelligence Committee, it is the responsibility of Government to digest intelligence. The information is slid across the table and then it is the Government of the day and Whitehall who make the assessments. If the intelligence is scant, the Government need to respond on the day. Does he agree that people such as Mr Scarlett did their job? It became difficult for them when the documents were slid back across the table by people like Alastair Campbell, who were saying “You need to replicate what they are finding in America.”

[Mr Meacher]

I agree that the intelligence community can only do what it can do. There are limits to the amount of information it can provide and the politicians then have a responsibility to reflect that. I completely agree and one’s anger is not that politicians were selective, but that they said the opposite of what they were being told, which I believe is unforgivable.

There are two issues on which those responsible must be held to account. One is the presentation of the evidence to the House to agree to war. Being sinuous with the truth may not exactly be lying but it is certainly not open or honest. Presenting a seriously misleading account of the facts may not be lying either but it is certainly not truthful or straightforward. The second question is about the framework of governance that allowed this to happen. On that point, of course, it would have been much better if we had had the Chilcot report, but we still have to wait for its recommendations. I think everyone in the House agrees that it is far too long delayed and we need the report urgently.

Even 10 years on, we still have not been told the crucial evidence of the secret pledges that Blair made to Bush at his Crawford ranch in Texas some 10 months before the war began and, of course, before consulting the Cabinet, Parliament or the British people. Chilcot has seen this evidence but, as I understand it, has been prevented from publishing it, even though Blair himself, as well as Jonathan Powell and Alastair Campbell have disclosed privileged information when it has suited their case when they have given evidence to the inquiry. Being told, as we have been, that it is not in the public interest that it should be disclosed is, in my view, the strongest possible indication that it is very much in the public interest that it should be revealed.

The second fundamental dimension of this whole saga is clearly what the war achieved in the long term.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

My hon. Friend is giving a very interesting narrative of the process in government. Does he think that there is now case for legal action at an international level against those who deceived successive Parliaments in this country and in other places, which resulted in this terrible war?

[Mr Meacher]

That is why I say that we need the Chilcot report, in the light of which my hon. Friend’s point will be a serious consideration. The truth is that, in realpolitik, to the victors the spoils, with only those who are defeated paying the penalty. I take my hon. Friend’s point, which is an honest and fair one, and we should return to this when the report is finally published.

The second dimension is what the war has achieved. On this 10th anniversary, it has been said that the US won the war, Iran won the peace and Turkey won the contracts. But did the US win the war? At a cost that has been estimated at $1.5 trillion, something over £1 trillion—Joseph Stiglitz, a former member of the presidential economic council, thinks it is actually twice that level—and at a cost to the US of a death toll of 4,500 troops, 32,000 wounded and with thousands of survivors still struck down with post-traumatic stress disorder, the US completely failed to anticipate the insurgency that eventually forced it out. Moreover, the war actually produced the one thing that the US was desperately anxious to prevent; namely a Shi’a autocracy in Iraq, closely aligned with a resurgent Shi’a Iran. Even the US goal of securing control of the enormous Iraqi oil reserves, second only to those of Saudi Arabia, it was forced to forgo. If one had to pinpoint the moment when the US lost unipolar power as the world’s hegemon, it must surely be this comprehensive disaster of the Iraq war.

As for Iraq itself, it remains a bitterly divided and violent country, as others have said. It is not only the hundreds of thousands of dead and, at the height of the war, the 4 million refugees, but after nine years of occupation by US and British troops, thousands are still tortured and imprisoned without trial, health and education have dramatically deteriorated, the position of women has horrifically gone backwards, trade unions are effectively banned, Baghdad is still divided by the checkpoints and the blast walls, the electricity and water supplies have all but broken down, and people pay with their lives if they are honest enough to speak out.

In the longer term, the war has undermined the moral standing of the US and the UK across the world, not only in the middle east. It generated the al-Qaeda presence, which certainly was not there before, and it sent a clear message, which has emboldened Iran and North Korea, that the only way to deter US blackmail and attack was indeed to acquire weapons of mass destruction. It could even be said about the war without exaggeration that the greatest weapons of mass destruction were those wielded by the Americans. We saw the comprehensive and systematic demolition of Falluja, the US-led massacres at Haditha, Mahmudiya and Balad, and the biggest refugee crisis in the middle east since the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948.

My third and final consideration lies in the lessons, briefly, that can be drawn from this disaster. The chief one, as I said, concerns the governance structure that allowed it to happen in the first place. As we know, there was the mendacious, illegal and devious manner in which the US and the UK claimed authority in launching the war at all. Saddam had no involvement whatever in 9/11. There were no Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, as was widely suspected by western intelligence at the time, but suppressed by the politicians. The ways used by Bush and Blair to take their countries to war were, as we know all too well, brazenly deceitful.

Much is made of the fact that there was a vote in the House of Commons, and there was, but that vote was on the very eve of war, hours before the bombing started when, with 45,000 British troops already deployed in the field, it was virtually impossible to draw back. So the first lesson is obviously that in any such future scenario—God forbid that there ever should be such a future scenario—the House of Commons vote must be at a much earlier stage in the process when war is first seriously being contemplated and at that stage the documentation must be provided to justify, or purport to justify, the war, and that must be fully disclosed to the House before the vote is taken.

[Laura Sandys]

As somebody who has so much more experience than I do in Parliament, will the right hon. Gentleman speculate what would have happened if we had voted against the war? Would we have been able to roll ourselves back? I think it was almost too late and it would have been a very big dilemma for the Prime Minister of the time to be in that position—an interesting dilemma and one that we need to resolve if we are to have votes before intervention in the future.

[Mr Meacher]

That is indeed an interesting point. It would not just have been difficult for the Prime Minister—it would have been a massive humiliation and embarrassment if that had happened. One has to ask why the vote was taken so late. Maybe—I can only speculate—it was precisely to put pressure on Members of this House for what was virtually a fait accompli, which would compel a majority of them to support it. I pay enormous tribute to the 139 MPs who voted against the war. Most were Labour Members, but some were Tories or Members from the smaller parties. They need to be given the credit and honour that they are due.

[Pete Wishart]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way and for commending the parties that voted against the war. He was just speculating on what might have happened if the House had voted against the war and whether that would have stopped it. One clear conclusion is known, because Tony Blair said that he would have resigned if the vote had gone against him. I think that was as big an incentive as any to vote against it that evening.

[Mr Meacher]

We all can have our views on that opinion.

[Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)]

I was one of the organisers of the rebellion, and it was with great sadness that I rebelled against my party and my Prime Minister. Will my right hon. Friend concede that the vote was not gifted by the Government, but hard fought for? Many of us worked for many months to obtain the vote. Indeed, there was to be an alternative convening of Parliament in Church House, at which we would have had a critical mass, and only 48 hours before the Government conceded that there would be a vote. We had enough Members to convene a Parliament to discuss the Iraq war, and the former Speaker, Bernard Weatherill, was prepared to chair it. It would have included Members from across the House, including some very brave Conservative Members, Members from the Liberal party and friends from the smaller parties across the political spectrum. But 122 Labour Members voted on the first occasion, and indeed the numbers went up on the second vote, which is unheard of, given the whipping operation against those who did not want us to go to war. It was not a gift of the Government; it was hard fought for—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is making an intervention, not a speech. We have only two hours remaining for this debate and at least six Members still wish to take the Floor. I would be grateful if Members wishing to intervene did so briefly, because otherwise those who wish to make a speech will be disappointed.

[Mr Meacher]

I am pleased that my hon. Friend provided the House with that information, as I do not think it is well understood. It has been claimed in this debate is that the whipping was not very strong, but that is absolutely not the view that most of us take. It was an attempt to corral Members of all parties to support the war. I think that he has skilfully shown the work that was done under the counter, which forced what was necessary. Without it, the vote might well never have happened.

The second lesson—I will be quick, Madam Deputy Speaker, because I know that I have been speaking for some time—is that the power and wilfulness of a Prime Minister who can so brazenly override normal democratic procedures, quite apart from the personality of Tony Blair, is a very serious issue. He made a commitment to go to war at Bush’s Crawford ranch in Texas 10 months before that vote and without consulting anyone. He regularly told Parliament, right up to the very start of the war, that no decision had been taken. Clearly an unstoppable momentum had been deliberately built up. He lent heavily on his Attorney-General between 7 and 17 March to induce him to chance his legal warning that the war was not legal. On 15 February he ignored and dismissed the biggest protest demonstration this country has ever seen, with up to 2 million members of the public marching against the war. According to evidence given by the UK’s ambassador to the US at the time, Sir Christopher Meyer, Bush even rung up Tony Blair to suggest that he could “sit out the war”, while the Pentagon’s Donald Rumsfeld was quite happy to go in alone, but Blair was obsessive and determined to see it through. In an interview in December 2009 he was asked this question:

“If you had known then that there were no WMDs, would you still have gone on?”

He replied:

“I would still have thought it right to remove him”—

that is, Saddam Hussein. To that end, he even colluded with what his own head of MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove, said in July 2002, eight months before the war—that

“the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.”

That background of the contumacious wilfulness of a Prime Minister dragging this country, virtually single-handedly, to war—as it turned out, a war of momentously disastrous consequences—makes it the duty of this House to set down inviolable conditions to prevent any such catastrophe from ever happening again. That must, at the very least, embrace unquestioning compliance with UN resolutions; a clear and unwhipped vote of the Commons and, indeed, the Lords, long before any envisaged hostilities; and a full disclosure of all the data and evidence that can be used to justify war. Only when those conditions are made to apply will we have learned the lessons of this dreadful episode.

15:06

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

Thank you for calling me to speak in this debate, Madam Deputy Speaker. Please excuse my croaky voice, but I was very keen to speak for two reasons. First, as a Royal Air Force officer I served in Operation Warden, the no-fly zone over Northern Iraq in the 1990s; and secondly, just a fortnight ago, I was honoured to return Iraq 18 years on from my military service there. I want to give my perspective on Iraq pre and post the war of 2003.

In the 1990s, Operation Warden was the no-fly zone over northern Iraq which operated from Incirlik airbase in Turkey. Aircraft from the UK, the US, France and Turkey prevented Saddam Hussein from waging his war against Iraq’s 5 million Kurds. Prior to the no-fly zone, Saddam Hussein’s forces slaughtered many thousands of Iraqi Kurds. This included chemical weapon attacks at Halabja and mass executions culminating in the Anfal campaigns of 1988.

In 1995, during my tour, I joined coalition officers from the military co-ordination centre in Zakho, northern Iraq. We toured Kurdish villages near Dohuk and Irbil. Meeting village elders, we spread the word that the only aircraft flying above were coalition ones and that we could help with medical supplies and other immediate necessities such as electricity generators. We were given a warm welcome. The no-fly zone saved lives and has meant that Iraq’s 5 million Kurds have experienced relative stability since the end of the 1991 Gulf war.

After the war of 2003, Iraq’s 2005 federal constitution gave the Kurdistan regional government an unprecedented level of self-government. Eighteen years on from my military service, I was back in northern Iraq two weeks ago as a guest of the Kurdistan regional government via the all-party group on the Kurdistan region in Iraq. I saw the peaceful and increasingly prosperous Erbil and its surrounding areas. This fairly secular region sees Christians, Jews and Muslims living side by side. In fact, over 2 million tourists visited the region last year. The Erbil citadel, 6,000 years old, is the world’s oldest continuously inhabited settlement and a big tourist attraction. Again, the welcome was warm and friendly.

For many years I have spoken of my opposition to the 2003 Iraq war. I come at it from a slightly different angle—a military angle. My view was that Saddam Hussein was a caged animal because the northern no-fly zone, like the one in the south, was preventing any repeat of his previous atrocities. However, it is clear that the dictator’s removal has allowed Kurdistan to move on. Weapons of mass destruction or oil are often cited as reasons for going to war, as they have been in this Chamber today, but it is the regime change that has made a huge difference in the north of the country.

Having been helped themselves, the Iraqi Kurds are now helping others. On this month’s trip we spent an emotional day at the Domiz refugee camp near the Iraq-Syria border. Some 130,000 Syrian Kurds have fled the fighting in Syria. I spoke with many refugees, including children, who continue to be educated in specially constructed schools. The Kurdistan regional government deserves praise for funding and arranging that.

As has been said, however, all is not well in Iraq. There are tensions and rifts between the Kurdistan regional government and Baghdad, the capital is plagued by violence—a post-2006 record of 1,000 people were killed in May alone—and there is a bitter dispute over revenue sharing, as a new oil pipeline from Kurdistan into Turkey nears completion. With an estimated 45 billion barrels of oil reserves—the fourth largest in the world—and a century’s worth of natural gas, the Kurdistan regional government has become a major player and its dispute with Baghdad is now based on the breakdown of revenue sharing. KRG is supposed to get 17% of national revenues and, by the same token, should pay 83% of whatever it earns into the national treasury.

Kurdistan’s relative stability is now a strong pull for foreign investors. It is not just about oil—hotel and leisure groups are investing there. I hope that this can be a model for the rest of Iraq. Given recent events in neighbouring Turkey, the violence and civil war in Syria and the upcoming elections in Iran, the region and western nations need a stable Iraq more than ever.

Ten years on from the Iraq war, the outlook for Iraq is mixed. The absence of the violent dictator Saddam Hussein has heralded peace and prosperity in the north, while the south and the capital face uncertainty and, potentially, an even more violent future.

As I come to the end of my brief speech, I want to pause to remember and pay tribute to those who died in the Iraq conflict, which started in 2003. There have been 179 UK military deaths and 43 UK civilians have died, as have, as we have heard, hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi men, women and children. We must remember them all. With Syria in mind, perhaps these are the lessons we need to heed when pondering the removal of another murderous dictator.

15:12

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

To take up the final point made by the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) about honouring the 179 dead, I have in the past read out their names. I am sure it would make a deeper impression today if I read them out again, but unfortunately that is forbidden by the rules of the House.

That is part of the feeling we have—the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) made this point—and our reluctance to face the truth. Only the future is certain; the past is always changing. We have heard today so many attempts to fictionalise what happened and we refuse to face our failures. The hon. Gentleman made a marvellous speech on which I would like to base my remarks. He said that what characterises this Parliament is the unimportance of being right and the rewards for failure and the punishment for the truth. I am afraid that that is the abiding culture of this place.

I have received a message during the debate from someone expressing, in very strong language, incredulity at the suggestion that there was not a strong Whip on that day in March. I have been here for 26 years and it was the strongest Whip I have ever encountered. Many of those who were opposed to the war—about 30 or 40 of them—who had signed motions and early-day motions against it were bribed, bullied and bamboozled into changing their minds to either abstain or vote in favour of it. Almost all of them regret that bitterly. It was the most important vote of our careers and it is not true to say that it was easy to make our minds up. It was not. The threat was there that we would lose our seats and that the Prime Minister would resign. Members who were in any doubt were called in to see Ministers to be persuaded. Members of the Committees who had knowledge that we did not have, such as the Intelligence and Security Committee, went around cajoling Back Benchers saying, “If you knew what we know, you’d vote for war, but we can’t tell you because it’s all secret.” They were being fed nonsense and exaggerations as well.

Our reluctance to accept the truth seems extraordinary to me. It would be flattering to describe today’s speech from the Government Front Bench as vacuous. Even now, the Government cannot admit that there were no weapons of mass destruction. It is little short of insanity to suggest that anyone still believes that there were such weapons.

Members have questioned whether anyone foresaw what would happen. A great many people foresaw it at the time. To suggest otherwise is another attempt to rewrite history. I have dug out a letter that I sent to the then Prime Minister in March 2003 to point out what the consequences of the invasion would be. I see with nausea that Tony Blair is now explaining that the inherent nature of the Islamic religion was responsible for the terrible event that took place in Woolwich a few weeks ago. It was not. That event was a reaction to what happened in 2003. My letter stated:

“Our involvement in Bush’s war will increase the likelihood of terrorist attacks. Attacking a Muslim state without achieving a fair settlement of the Palestine-Israeli situation is an affront to Muslims, from our local mosques to the far-flung corners of the world.”

That is when it started and it continued in Afghanistan. The only decision that has been taken without a vote that is comparable to the decision to join Bush’s war in Iraq is the decision to go into Helmand province. There were two dead UK soldiers at that time. The figure is now 441. Nothing has been achieved in Helmand province. Indeed, conditions are worse than in 2006 when we went in.

This House was deceived. We failed. The organs that should have defended us and given us the truth—the Foreign Affairs Committee, the Defence Committee and the Intelligence and Security Committee—were all part of the hallelujah chorus of praise for the messiah, Tony Blair, who thought that he could walk on water. He had been successful in Kosovo. He had been successful in Sierra Leone. Although there were people who opposed him, he thought that he was infallible and was determined to go on.

Tony Blair was asked about the crucial decision in a splendid television programme that was aired recently on BBC2. The decision was not about whether we should stop the war. We could never have stopped the war, because Bush was determined to go in. Saddam would have been removed anyway. The decision that we had to make in Parliament was whether our soldiers should be involved in that. Tony Blair admitted to the shoulder-to-shoulder comment. He almost certainly made his decision in 2002, when he shook hands with Bush and said, “I’ll be with you.” They then invented the facts in order to present this House with a false agenda. If he had not persuaded 40 or so Labour Members to vote the other way, we would not have gone to war.

Tony Blair was asked in the programme why he did not pull out. His comment was:

“I thought it was the right thing to do, I wanted my country to be a part of it. I admit what I said about standing shoulder to shoulder with the US and I would prefer to have gone and left as Prime Minister than to have backed out on the basis that it was too politically difficult.”

There are a large number of “I”s in that statement, but 179 British dead is a hell of a price to pay for one man’s vanity, which I believe was the situation.

Tony Blair did persuade the House; he was very persuasive and used his great talents. He thought it was a special day; it is the only time, I believe, that he invited his family up to the Public Gallery to watch his performance. He saw this; he was the great actor-manager of politics and he gave a splendid performance in the Chamber. There was the invention of the 45-minute claim, and the sexing-up of the introduction to the dossier. Because of that, we sent those young men to their deaths.

The awful thing is that those families who saw their loved ones die have constructed their own justification by saying, “Well, they died in a noble cause; they did not die in vain. Iraq will be a better place because of it.” Slowly, tragically, they must come to terms with a different reality that their loved ones died because of the ego of one man who used his position to send them into an avoidable war.

We must consider all the other wars we are faced with, and the extent of the deceptions. We went into Iraq to defend ourselves against non-existent weapons of mass destruction; we went into Helmand province to defend ourselves against a non-existent Taliban terrorist threat to the United Kingdom. We are now being told that we should perhaps go into Iran to defend ourselves against non-existent Iranian long-range missiles carrying non-existent Iranian nuclear bombs.

One issue that has come to light but received very little publicity is the activity of people such as the Kagans. Kimberly and Frederick Kagan are a married couple who were at Petraeus’s right hand. They were privy to all the private conversations, went to every secret meeting, and wrote Petraeus’s report to the Defence Secretary on what was happening in Afghanistan. Each time, they wanted a more hard-edged approach to military activities and more aggression, and each time, they tried to sabotage the peace initiatives. The Kagans were not employed by the military or by Petraeus—their paymasters were the defence industry and contractors. There was a strong element of that in Iraq and certainly in Afghanistan, and we must look to such things and to the revolving door that means that wars go on. We are at a stage where we are being told to go into perpetual wars. When one is over, we are softened up for the next one, and on and on it goes.

It gets worse. The hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) spoke about the error of saying that might is right. That works on the day and we win victories, but we store up huge resentment—just as we are doing now with the use of our vastly superior technology in drones and robot weapons. The price must be paid in the end, and we are paying it with the division between the western, Christian part of the world, and the Muslim side. Those divisions are deep and we did a great deal to cause them through our errors in the past.

I will conclude with a poem that was read the other day about the start of the first world war, because it is something we could apply to the former Prime Minister. It is a poem by Kipling, who spent his life celebrating and glorifying war. He managed to get his son, who was almost blind, into the war by pulling a few strings, but he was then tormented because his son died in the war as a result of his efforts. That changed his view, and if any poem will apply to Tony Blair when he becomes—this is the title of the poem—“A dead statesman”, it is this:

“I could not dig: I dared not rob:

Therefore I lied to please the mob.

Now all my lies are proved untrue

And I must face the men I slew.

What tale shall serve me here among

Mine angry and defrauded young?”

15:24

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

I have just returned from a brief all-party visit to Berlin, where, with other parliamentarians, I had the opportunity to visit checkpoint Charlie. Anybody who visits will be aware of the big sections of the Berlin wall that remain, covered in graffiti, as symbols of how divided that city was. We find the same walls and constructs—blast containers—all over Baghdad, Kabul, Helmand and so on. When will sections of walls in Baghdad or Basra serve no other purpose than to remind us and remain as symbols of events in the past?

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing this important debate. I am grateful for it. It is appropriate to discuss the lessons learned, considering that almost 200 lives were lost, and that the campaign cost the taxpayer almost £8 billion. I declare an interest as a former regular member of the armed forces and a serving member of the reserve forces. I pay tribute, as other hon. Members have, to those who served and to the fallen—those whose lives are permanently changed through injury and, particularly, those who did not return.

The analysis should be divided into three different areas: first, the justification for intervention; secondly, the military campaign and defeating the enemy; and thirdly, the stabilisation and reconstruction phase. General Petraeus, who had a long-term involvement in Iraq, famously said that it was not enough to defeat the enemy, and that, if we are to intervene, we need to enable the local. Those are wise words to remember no matter where we want to go, whether upstream or on any campaign or intervention.

Although we might disagree with intervention, I am not sure we would be having this debate and making the cases we are making if the stabilisation and reconstruction had been more of a success story. I would go further than that and say that Tony Blair would probably have continued as leader of his party and not been taken over by his Chancellor had peace prevailed, had Basra been a success, and had the situation not deteriorated as it did in the aftermath of the invasion.

Like other hon. Members, I await the outcome of the Chilcot inquiry, which will be illuminating. I and other hon. Members attended a number of its sessions. It was interesting to hear people giving direct accounts of their roles, small and large, in the decision-making process, not least the military leaders who gave evidence who felt pulled between commitments in Iraq and continuing commitments in Afghanistan, to which hon. Members have referred. Unfortunately, I believe the inquiry will make unpleasant reading for the Labour Government in respect of some of their decisions.

On the justification for intervention, I spoke out prior to invasion against intervention. I made that absolutely clear, even though the Conservative party seemed to be in favour. As a military person, I define a threat as it is defined militarily—a threat is the ability and intent to cause harm. A threat is not just the desire to cause harm to another person, region, community or state; it must be matched with the means. People must have capability to pose a threat. If the two are not together, in military terms, the threat does not exist. That is why I began to question the justification for the invasion.

I do not have the same problem as other hon. Members with the build-up of armed forces, because that shows intent. We needed to build up capacity to allow the politicians to make the decision. Building up armed forces can persuade the enemy to change their minds. We cut the oak for the ships used in the battle of Trafalgar well in advance of any admiralty decision to attack, but it was in mind and preparations needed to take place. I also do not have much of a problem with the vote in the House on the war itself. As I said, I would have put my hand up to say that I was not convinced. Many in the House were convinced by the intelligence that was presented to them.

We realise now that there were many flaws in the intelligence and that the House was misled on, for example, the 45-minute claim that our British bases in Cyprus were somehow under threat from tactical weapons of mass destruction. There was the very sad role of Alistair Campbell interfering with John Scarlett’s report and directing British intelligence dossiers to complement US intelligence. He was then forced to resign following the tragic death of David Kelly. There was the role of General Colin Powell, for whom I have a huge amount of respect. Not long ago, he admitted that his Adlai Stevenson moment—if I can put it that way—when he addressed the United Nations to give evidence for the justification of war in February 2003, was one of the most regrettable moments of his career. There was the CIA’s claim about yellowcake coming from Niger, which was used in President Bush’s state of the union address, leading, when the truth came out, to Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, Lewis “Scooter” Libby, going to prison.

The issue of what Hans Blix knew has been raised a number of times and is still debated. It is clear that while working for the International Atomic Energy Agency and leading the weapons inspectors, he continued to have full access in the country, even if Saddam Hussein was not co-operating fully. He had not found any evidence and could have continued in the country for as long as he liked, but was told leave by the Americans because of the impending invasion. We now realise that there was a single intelligence source—an exiled scientist living in Germany—stating that Saddam Hussein had tactical weapons of mass destruction. That was never corroborated. Finally, United Nations resolution 1441 did not actually give the right to invade—a point made clearly by France. It leant on previous resolution 687, which provided for the right to invade if certain conditions were not met. The UN Secretary-General said that he was uncomfortable with that.

I do not stand here as an apologist and say that war was not avoidable. It might have been, but I do not believe that invasion was justified at that juncture. As has been said a number of times, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but one wonders whether Saddam Hussein would have survived the Arab spring or whether, through a natural process of change in the middle east, we would have seen him removed. It is difficult to say.

In his book “State of Denial” Bob Woodward quotes General Franks, the United States central commander in the middle east, on being asked, in December 2001—when we had just gone into Afghanistan—to draw up plans to invade Iraq. That puts into perspective the energy and determination to push forward with intervention in Iraq.

On the intervention itself, Operation Telic went as well as it could have done. In the first three weeks of March 2003, we managed to defeat the enemy completely and were seen as liberators. I pay tribute to the 7th Army Brigade, which had to set up in a very awkward and difficult environment to establish the peace. The one lesson to be learned relates to the shock and awe policy. It is a matter for further debate, but I do not now think it is right for us, armed with these incredible long-range weapons, to destroy infrastructure on such a scale— the very same infrastructure that we will need a couple of weeks after putting boots on the ground. When a decision to invade is taken, we have to be more cognisant of the need to disrupt and take out the enemy without causing more damage and costing us more in the long-term.

It was not long after the initial invasion that the British started patrolling in berets, using our skills base from Northern Ireland to win over hearts and minds by looking less offensive in our military outfits in order to work with locals. It soon became apparent, however, after the successful invasion, that there was no plan or strategy—no idea what to do or how to harness the euphoria following Saddam Hussein’s fall in order to sow the seeds of governance—and so nothing happened and we went from liberators to occupiers. Where was the army of civil servants, linguists, engineers and planners—the people with the skill sets to rebuild Basra and help its people move forward? And let us not forget the significance of Basra, whose people were elated to get rid of Saddam Hussein, who was never a friend of the city, and whose strategic importance cannot be overestimated: as Iraq’s only port, it was a lifeline for moving oil out of the country.

Yet nothing happened. We created an umbrella of security, and our soldiers, having done a brave job, looked over their shoulders, expecting somebody else to come in and deal with governance, reconstruction and development, but nobody was there. I intervened on the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas)—who, as I said, spoke with passion and concern for the position of the then Government, and whom I congratulate on taking a stand at the time—and explained how Clare Short, then at the Department for International Development, which was the one organisation with the money to provide reconstruction and development planning, decided not to participate and sent a message around the Department to that effect. As a result, our armed forces were left on their own. She should have been sacked immediately. I am pleased to say that now the relationship between the Ministry of Defence, DFID and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has improved immensely, but the culture at the time, underlined—I am afraid—by her stance, did not allow DFID even to consider participating in war zones. It was focusing far too much on poverty.

[Mr Llwyd]

The former right hon. Lady to whom the hon. Gentleman refers made strenuous efforts to get the Prime Minister to plan for the peace, even before entering the war. She did everything she possibly could, and it was directly as a result of his not taking her advice that much of the reconstruction work was not done and the humanitarian resources were not invested immediately. She did everything she could, but she found it impossible to get through to him.

[Mr Ellwood]

I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman at all. We had a debate on Iraq when Clare Short was in the Chamber. I asked her directly—it is in Hansard—whether she sent a diktat round her Department and to her directors saying, “Do not do any planning for participating in post-conflict reconstruction, because I believe the war is illegal and I do not want to get into trouble.” I paraphrase, but those were roughly the words. She replied, “Absolutely. I did that. That was my belief at the time.” That is what happened, but whether there is more to it—

[Mr Llwyd]

There is more to it.

[Mr Ellwood]

I shall wait for the right hon. Gentleman’s speech for him to elaborate.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I think it is a bit late for that.

[Mr Ellwood]

As the Minister said, there have been a number of successes of which we can be proud, so we should not be too dismayed: the referendum has led to a new constitution, there has been a series of elections and to some extent all-out civil war has been avoided, but there remains huge sectarian violence and a number of challenges ahead.

My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), who spoke very articulately and has huge experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, said that Iraq was not Britain’s finest hour. This was there with the Suez crisis and our invasion of Afghanistan in 1839. There was no conflict plan. The decision to disband the army and de-Ba’athify Iraq in one fell swoop was bizarre and ignored the fact that teachers, nurses and others were forced to be part of the Ba’ath party. As soon as we made it illegal and those who were part of it unable to work, we lost the mindset of support from an important swathe of the middle-class population.

The timeline makes for grievous reading. In summer 2007, we failed to do any development and reconstruction. Our military were forced to withdraw from the city centre, as it became untenable to stay there, and relocate to the airport. The Prime Minister, Mr Maliki, said:

“Basra has been left to the mercy of the militia men”.

In the absence of anything happening, a vacuum developed. Gangs formed, which turned into militia, which then ran the city. In 2008, it was not the British who liberated the city; it was the Iraqi army. Maliki came down to Basra and decided the situation needed to come to an end and that the Mahdi army needed to be pushed out. In spring 2009, our military interest in Iraq came to an end. We did not hand the base over to the Iraqi army; we handed it over to the Americans.

[Paul Flynn]

Is it not true that Maliki—who is hardly an ideal figure—was holed up in Basra, surrounded by the militia and about to be killed, when the American army came in and rescued him?

[Mr Ellwood]

The hon. Gentleman is correct. The details are that Maliki was surrounded and the Americans came in. Once the Mahdi army was removed and the militia brought under control, that was the first occasion when, finally, governance was possible and a mayor of Basra could be put in place to move the city forward.

In my view, after any invasion or intervention, we have a window of three to six months to get things right before the enemy can regroup and the locals then decide, “Actually, life is no better under the new regime than it was under the old.” We missed that window of opportunity, which cost Britain lives—as it did others in the international community—because of our reluctance to do what was required. My concern is this. We sit at the international top table. We are a power with nuclear weapons, we have a place on the Security Council and we have centuries of serious war fighting experience, and we could not even hold a medium-sized conurbation. The armed forces were under immense strain during this period. As I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, this was tied in with, and happened at the same time as, our decision to make an even grander commitment in Afghanistan, with two air bridges operating, to the point that our armed forces were almost unable to cope.

The Minister talked about some of the success stories. Many of us have visited Iraq many times. I recently went to Irbil. It is very pleasing indeed to see how much the region has moved forward from the atrocities it endured under Saddam Hussein. I only hope that such success can be emulated in the rest of the country. Unfortunately, Iraq is not in the headlines anymore, because our troops are not there, but as hon. Members across the House have mentioned, there were as many deaths in this last month as there were in 2008. The scale of continuing atrocities is quite shocking.

In conclusion, there are serious questions about our decision to go to war in the first place, about how Parliament debates these matters and about our ability to do post-conflict reconstruction. This House regularly pays tribute to our armed forces for their commitment and professionalism and the sacrifice they make for our country, but in the long history of British military engagements, Iraq was far from our finest hour. That was no fault of theirs, I should say, but falls totally on the shoulders of the Government of the day, who failed to plan for peace. I am pleased that the Prime Minister, in looking at other interventions, which have also been mentioned in this debate, has introduced three conditions for this House to approve any intervention. First, is there a legal basis for intervention? Secondly, is there regional support? Thirdly, is there an international commitment to the cause? I hope that, as we look for solutions in Syria and the Sahel, the Prime Minister’s conditions will not be forgotten.

15:44

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood). He is of course right to mention the sheer bravery and commitment of our service personnel, the effectiveness with which they conducted Operation Telic, and the speed with which Iraq was defeated, if can use that word. I remember those days clearly, as the MP representing the regimental headquarters of the Black Watch, which was engaged in the operations. I also recall the time of the surge in Falluja, when the media came to me for comment on the many losses sustained by the Black Watch at that time. That was a difficult period for all those Members of Parliament with a military interest in the Iraq war. Those interviews, in which I paid tribute to the many soldiers from my constituency who lost their lives during that war, were among the toughest interviews I have ever had to do. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is also right to mention what happened after the war: the total lack of planning for a sustainable reinvention of Iraq and the stripping of all state infrastructure relating to the Ba’ath party. That was a massive mistake and it led to many of the difficulties that followed the invasion.

I want to go back to 18 March 2003, the day on which we debated the Iraq war. I was here that day, as a few hon. Members who are in the Chamber today were, and I remember it as a dark ugly day, a horrible day. There was nothing like the light Whip that the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) described. I was the Whip of our group, and I remember seeing some of the Labour Whips’ activities on that day. People were drawn aside and told that the Prime Minister would resign if the vote did not go through. They were told that their careers would be at risk if they voted against the Government. It was a horrible day. I remember lots of good men and women being dragooned into the Lobby to support their Prime Minister and their Government against their better instincts. It was good to hear the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher)—it is a pity that he has now left the Chamber—acknowledge that we were fed a lot of nonsense about the case for war. Many Members of Parliament, particularly those on the Labour side, knew that, but they were dragooned into providing that perverse support for their Prime Minister and their Government.

I remember listening to Tony Blair that day. I actually watched the YouTube video of the speech this morning, just to refresh my memory of the atmosphere in the debate. We had to listen to endless drivel and nonsense. He said that the case for weapons of mass destruction was beyond debate, that they were really there, and that they could reach us in 45 minutes. He talked about collusion with al-Qaeda, and said that Saddam Hussein was preparing a nuclear programme using uranium from Niger. It was all total and utter bollocks—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman should use that word, and I am sure that he will want to withdraw it immediately.

[Pete Wishart]

I withdraw it, of course, Mr Deputy Speaker. It was not that, but something very similar, that we had to listen to on that day.

The House passed the vote on Iraq by 412 votes to 149, and 217 hon. Members voted for the amendment tabled by Chris Smith. I was among those who voted against the war, as were my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), my hon. Friends the Members for Angus (Mr Weir) and for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). I am looking around the Chamber to see who else is here: I see the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), whom I commend for his fantastic speech today. It was excellent to hear a speech from the Front Bench from a former Minister who meant what he said and I thank him for that. He was listened to very carefully throughout the House. All of us here on these Benches today voted against the war. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) was not a Member of Parliament at the time, but one thing is certain: had she been a Member, there is no doubt that she would have been in the Lobby with us that evening.

That vote is the one that I am most proud of in my 12 years as a parliamentarian. It defined my first Session in Parliament. I, a young whippersnapper of an MP in short trousers, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Angus, first came here in the Session that lasted from 2001 to 2005, and the Iraq war was the defining feature of that parliamentary term. That was the context and the subtext of a lot of the debates we had on similar and other issues. I certainly remember during the 2005 election the sheer anger on the doorstep about the invasion of Iraq and how the war went.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. As a new MP at that time, I too remember the huge anger on the doorstep and the great pressure being put on MPs to vote for war—by the press, for example. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and I voted against an earlier motion, I recall that one newspaper named us and provided our phone numbers to get people to ring us up. A stream of people—with Geordie accents, I do not know why; the Scots did not seem to bother—then wanted me thrown out of the Labour party. That was news to me, as I had never been a member of it.

[Pete Wishart]

I am, of course, very grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention. Lots of strange things were going on at that time, particularly to people who were associated with an anti-war position. He is absolutely right to mention the role of the press in all that. They helped to create the environment, the culture and the mood for invasion and war.

The funny thing is that this did not have any effect on the public. The public loathed the idea of going to war in Iraq. I was at a march in Glasgow where 100,000 people were out opposing the war, while 1 million people in London marched against it. There were worldwide protests, too. It is reckoned that the protests against the Iraq invasion and war were the biggest protests ever witnessed since Vietnam—yet we still had the invasion and the war.

We have heard about the case for war and how compelling it was, and we have also heard about people being duped. The public saw through the case; the public knew that the case was flimsy; they viewed it as nonsense; they knew that there was no case for war. They were against the war because they knew it was wrong to attack Iraq. That is why they went out on the streets in such numbers to ensure that the war would be opposed. The Blair Government, however, were determined to go to war.

Parliament was even recalled in September 2002, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd reminded us, and we came down to listen to the case for war. I remember arriving and there in my pigeon-hole was the dodgy dossier. I remember sharing it with my hon. Friends, and we were almost in hysterics at some aspects of the case for war. It was drivel, but we had to listen to it again and again that day. We now know, of course, that the dodgy dossier was compiled from all sorts of plagiarised sources and that the most notable contribution came from a graduate student called Ibrahim al-Marashi. It seems almost like some sort of script for a failed comedy film kicked out because it lacked credibility, yet this was the case to go to war. I know I cannot say the unparliamentary word again, Mr Deputy Speaker, but that is what this dodgy dossier was.

Of course, there were no weapons of mass destruction, still less any that could have been deployed in 45 minutes. There was no collusion with al-Qaeda either, but al-Qaeda is certainly there now. Al-Qaeda is all over the region, following the political instability caused by this conflict. Of course, there was no evidence of any uranium project and nothing whatever could be found relating to any nuclear programme. We now know that Tony Blair and his Government knew this. How they knew this was revealed in the “Panorama” programme, to which some of my hon. Friends have referred. The programme said that the intelligence case to go to war, which was in the hands of the Prime Minister and the Government, was so flimsy that it lacked any credibility. It was based on an agent called “Curveball”, who saw evidence of WMD being compiled, which he passed on to the Germans. It subsequently spread like wildfire around the US and UK intelligence services, so determined were they to find any shred of credibility in the evidence to justify going to war.

We were misled; that is all we could say about all this. This House was misled. I regret that more Members are not here today. We need to hear more testimony, particularly from those who voted for the war. We have to hear from them, as we did from the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton, to understand that they were misled, lied to and given the wrong evidence. The only way this House can get any sort of closure on this issue is if we massively confess. Those who voted for the war need to come here and say, “We got it wrong. We were lied to by a former Prime Minister, and I wish I had never voted for the war.” That would be the honourable thing for hon. Members to do in this House—but I doubt whether it will happen.

The war was not, of course, based on intelligence. Intelligence was just a useful gimmick—a useful tool to ensure that Tony Blair could do what he wanted, which was to fulfil the almost perverse obligation that he felt that he owed to George Bush. He had probably told George Bush that he would take this country to war.

The night on which the five SNP Members voted against the war, as did our colleagues, was indeed a proud occasion, but let me tell the House about something else of which I am particularly proud. When that man, that former Prime Minister, came into the Chamber for his lap of honour, the House got up like a circus to clap him, but I would not rise to clap that warmonger. I sat rooted to my seat, and I am proud that I did so.

[Mr Weir]

I sat rooted to my seat as well. However, I remember the current Prime Minister, then Leader of the Opposition, standing and waving his hands to encourage his members to rise and cheer on the Prime Minister who had led us into this disastrous war.

[Pete Wishart]

Members were almost hissing us for sitting still, but I am glad and proud that I never rose to my feet to clap that warmonger.

The Iraq war is, of course, associated with Tony Blair, and always will be. It is his legacy. He might as well have had it tattooed on his head, such is his association with that illegal war. Conflicts tend to become associated with prominent figures and leaders: we have had Thatcher and the Falklands war, Churchill and world war two—and Iraq and Blair.

What was it all for? What was achieved? More than 100,000 dead, a region destabilised, a country divided along sectarian lines, and international diplomacy discredited as never before. We may never retrieve our credibility in the international community following Iraq, and that is a sad, sad indictment of what happened here. I will not even bother to go into the details of the millions of people who have been displaced. But another dreadful thing happened, and it is the thing that we will most regret: we have alienated a generation of people living in the Muslim world. Furthermore, we have dangerously radicalised a proportion of them, and that is what we are having to deal with now. That is another legacy of the Iraq war with which we have continued to contend, and we will live to regret it.

By any standard, Iraq has been an absolute and utter disaster. That illegal war was one of the most regrettable and damaging foreign policy adventures ever undertaken in our name. Some Members have gone on about Suez, but the mighty Suez is nothing but a little stream compared with the foreign policy damage that has been created by Iraq. Those responsible must be held to account. History will eventually judge them, but I should like to think that it will be done now, while I am still a Member of Parliament. I should like to think that some justice will be delivered. So far, the only people who have lost their jobs because of Iraq are people who worked for the BBC. One person lost his job because he said that the dossier was “sexed up”. That dossier was more sexed up than some teenage starlet in her latest pop video.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

What is even more regrettable is that after the war, those on what was then the Government Front Bench continued to assert that there were weapons of mass destruction, and that, as a matter of faith, they would be found. Eventually, of course, they had to concede, but it was a matter of belief and not of fact.

[Pete Wishart]

The Minister has been asked today whether there were weapons of mass destruction, but even now—10 years on, and with a different Government —they cannot concede that there were no such weapons. If the Minister were to rise in order to say, “Yes, we concede that now,” I would give way to him, but so far no UK Government have conceded that there were no weapons of mass destruction, and I think that until a Government do that, we will not have political closure.

We have had five useless reports on Iraq. That is the only thing we can call them: useless. They might as well have been made out of whitewash, given their validity when it comes to trying to discover and understand what actually went on. Now worrying issues are starting to emerge in relation to our best hope of ensuring that those responsible are held to account through the Chilcot report. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd referred to some of the current difficulties with Chilcot.

I mentioned to the Minister David Owen’s view that there is collusion between Tony Blair and No. 10 to ensure that the private correspondence between George Bush and Tony Blair is not revealed. We must see that correspondence, because it will probably tell us more than anything else about the reasons for going to war. We will be able to see how the plan was shaped and designed between the two of them, and to see the commitment that was made by Tony Blair to George Bush.

The Chilcot inquiry started four years ago, and with every year that passes, the Iraq war recedes and the Chilcot conclusions lose their potency. I say this, however, to the current Government and those who were in the last Labour Government: we will not forget. We will not forget this, and we will continue to hold this Government to account for what they do.

History will judge these people. At some point, what actually happened will have to come out. If Chilcot does not do that, it will come out later. I am not confident that we will get the truth about Iraq before the end of this decade, however. I think it will take another generation before the true story of Iraq is told, because there are too many big reputations at stake, and too many pillars would come down if it were actually revealed. The Foreign Office and the foreign policy of the United Kingdom would probably be totally discredited if the truth about Iraq came out.

That is why I am not confident that we will find out the true story about Iraq before the end of this decade, and I will be out of here by then. I do not want to be part of a country that does this. It is appalling to be part of a nation that indulges in illegal wars. I am from Scotland. Scotland is the nation that defines me, and I want my country to make a peaceful contribution to the world and not get involved in these illegal wars, so I am glad we will have an opportunity next year to ensure that we are no longer part of a nation that is prepared to indulge in such things.

It was not a Tory Government who took us into this illegal war; it was a Labour Government, for goodness’ sake—the last type of Government we would expect to take us into an illegal war. It is not all about the evil Tories, therefore. It was a Labour Government who did that, and I am glad that next year my nation will get the opportunity to vote for independence and ensure we will never be part of illegal wars again.

I think the case for independence is overwhelming, but this issue really helps it. The issue has politicised so many people. We have heard about the Stop the War coalition, which did so much great work on it, and Stop the War lost one of its greatest advocates in the last few days: the iconic author Iain Banks. I remember when he came down here and participated in the activities of Stop the War. He was an author without peer, an iconic Scot and a great, great guy. He was heavily politicised by the Iraq war. In fact, he tore up his passport and sent it to Tony Blair, such was his disgust at the war.

I want to pay tribute to Iain Banks in my final remarks by quoting some words not from his great works, “The Crow Road” or “The Wasp Factory”, but from him to Tony Blair. He said that

“it was Blair who bowed to Bush in the first place, and Blair who convinced the Labour party and parliament of the need to go to war with a dossier that was so close to lying that it makes no difference.”

Indeed!

16:03

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I could do no better than echo the words of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) about Iain Banks. He was a great writer and a great supporter of the Stop the War coalition, of which I am the current chair, and he gave enormous political, practical and financial support to the anti-war movement. We thank him for that, and for all the other great things he achieved during his life.

This debate falls 10 years on from that desperate, fateful time when this country went to war with Iraq. I remember the debate on that here as if it were yesterday. The Chamber was full. We were told there was an ever-present threat from weapons of mass destruction. We were told that there were nuclear weapons and yellowcake, and all the other canards were brought up throughout that debate, and at the same time there was a massive whipping operation going on all around the Chamber. I have to say that I was totally unaffected by that whipping operation—it seemed to pass me by completely—but I observed it going on in dark corners around this building.

It was a shameful day for Parliament, and it was a shameful day for the whole political system in this country. Outside in Parliament square, there were thousands of people. They thought, naively perhaps, that they would be listened to. Some 1 million and more had marched in central London—maybe 2 million were on the streets of London that day—and 600 demonstrations on every continent of the world, including Antarctica, had been held a month before, and the opinion polls all showed that there was no support for this war against Iraq. They thought that Parliament would reflect their views and their wishes.

The vote that day in which Parliament, sadly, endorsed going to war not only did enormous damage to Parliament, but did enormous damage and a disservice to a whole generation, because they had put their hopes in the political process to carry out their wishes and it did not do so. That engendered cynicism and we are still dealing today in many ways with the legacy of the war in this country. Let me deal first with the role of Parliament.

My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) was correct. Up until the Iraq war, taking this country to war at any time was completely a matter of the royal prerogative exercised by the Prime Minister. That royal prerogative remains in operation. A number of us, particularly my hon. Friend, argued strongly that we should have a vote in Parliament on the war—previously, only procedural votes had been possible. Eventually the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, agreed that there could be vote, although I think it was a matter of self-interest on his part: he wanted to share the responsibility and the burden. We were pleased to have the opportunity to vote against the war, and I suspect he was pleased to have the opportunity to get a lot of MPs through the Lobby in support of his view.

Some people think that whipping, lobbying and pressure are the only things that matter in politics, but, quite honestly, we are sent here as representatives of our constituencies; we all have a conscience that we have to live with and decisions that we have to take. At the end of the day, an MP cannot blame anyone else; it is his or her own decision and vote, and the record will stand. I think our constituents understand that, but the very least we can do in recognition of what happened then is, first, in the immediate future, ensure that we have a vote before any arms are sent to Syria; and secondly, ensure that we have a proper war powers Act, so that Parliament must vote before British troops are deployed.

[Caroline Lucas]

rose—

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I will give way to my friend, if I may call her that, the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). I congratulate her on her absolutely excellent speech and on securing the debate. As a fellow officer of the Stop the War coalition, I can hardly not give way to her.

[Caroline Lucas]

The hon. Gentleman is making a wonderful speech, as we knew he would. He spoke just now about the importance of having a vote before war. Does he agree with me that it should be a free vote—that we need to be voting from our conscience, not from the Whips’ list?

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Absolutely. On something so fundamental as the deployment of armed forces, a free vote is the right thing to do. Many have said it is easy to send other people’s sons and daughters off to die and then hide behind a veneer of party loyalty, but the issue is much bigger than that.

[Mr Llwyd]

May I suggest a further prerequisite, which is that some machinery should be adopted whereby we are all made privy to a certain amount of the delicate intelligence information that has led the Government to their conclusion? Otherwise, we could be duped into acting the same way again.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

The right hon. Gentleman is correct. The legal advice given to the Cabinet is still the subject of debate. The Chilcot report is yet to come out—I understand it is heading for 1 million words, leaving “War and Peace” well behind, and goodness knows how many volumes there will be when it is finally produced. The information we are given is very important if we are to make an informed decision. It is, however, simply not credible to say that we were unaware of the dubiety of the information we were given. I came here at 8 o’clock on the day the dodgy dossier was published to pick up a copy and read it, and by a quarter past 8, I had realised it was a load of utter bunkum and that we had been dragged back to the House on false pretences. The same is true of Colin Powell’s address to the UN that September, when he claimed that chemical weapons were hidden in ice cream vans all over Iraq.

I received hundreds of messages, e-mails and so on from people who were involved in the anti-war movement, and I spoke at 200 anti-war meetings in this country and others before the decision was taken. Just think of the commitment of those people who went on the march in February 2003. Many of them were not of the left and many were not necessarily pacifists—anti-war as such—but they were convinced that we were being led by the nose into disaster. Frankly, the whole political establishment should have woken up and understood that, because the consequences were so huge for us and for the rest of the world.

I say all this not because I am any apologist for Saddam Hussein—I am not—and not because I do not recognise the abominable human rights abuses he committed; I do. But I remember that, in the 1980s, raising questions about arms sales to Iraq, human rights abuses in Iraq and the British relationship and trade with Iraq was a very unpopular thing to do in this place. There were not many people supporting that. Even after Malabar—as I said earlier—in 1988, we still participated in the Baghdad arms fair only a year later to continue that relationship. Of course the west did support Iraq against Iran. The consequences of all this are absolutely huge.

I just want to raise a couple of more general points as a lesson from this. What happened in 2001 was wrong, obviously; what happened at the twin towers and the killings was a disaster. Then we merrily invaded Afghanistan, the point at which the Stop the War coalition was founded. We proceeded to occupy the country very quickly and then found that it was not as simple as that. Here we are 12 years later; still in Afghanistan, still not controlling the country and still losing lives there. We denied international law by allowing the Americans to call people enemy combatants, not prisoners of war. Guantanamo Bay was set up. Extraordinary rendition took place. The Homeland Security Act was passed in the USA and a whole raft of anti-terror legislation was passed in this country. Civil rights of people all over the world were damaged by the decision to invade Afghanistan, and that was compounded later by the decision to invade Iraq.

Then we invaded Iraq, after the infamous George Bush speech in 2002 in which he talked about the axis of evil without any evidence whatever and tried to claim that Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were as one. They did have one thing in common, actually. There is some evidence that, at various points in their lives, each tried to kill the other. That was roughly the only thing they had in common.

The behaviour of the occupying forces in Iraq has been far from perfect. We have seen Abu Ghraib, Falluja, the bombing campaigns, the torture of individuals and the driving of hundreds of thousands of people into exile both as internal and as external refugees from Iraq. I have very sad memories of visiting a refugee camp on the borders of Iraq and Syria, where there were a few hundred poor benighted Palestinian people whose families had been driven out of Haifa in 1948. They had been though countries all through the Gulf states, ended up in Iraq and were driven out of Iraq into Syria. Goodness knows where those families are now. They have joined the steady stream of refugees across the region. We have to think for a moment about the Palestinians and so many others.

I conclude with this thought. We have to learn a lesson, and it is a harsh one. We are not a global power. We cannot afford to be a global power, and why would we want to be one? Have we been enhanced as a country by our activities since 2001 in Afghanistan or Iraq, or have we been diminished? Do we have a better image or a much worse image around the world? It is time for us to take stock. Do we have to be a nation with a predilection to go to war and to have a global reach for our armed forces? Or do we wish to become a force in the world that supports international law, human rights and recognises the limits of the environmental destruction of our planet? Do we need Governments or Prime Ministers who say, to use the words of Tony Blair, that this is a chance to remake the middle east? The best way of remaking the middle east is to recognise the injustices done by colonialism, occupation, wars and the treatment of people who are trying to live their own lives, and to try to promote peace. The legacy of this war is a disastrous one. The enmity between the west and the Muslim communities, the enmity that is played out on the streets of this country, is a result of that. It is time for us to learn some very harsh lessons and, above all, to put them into practice.

16:14

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak in the debate and to congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on the efforts that I know she put in to secure it. I know that a great deal of work was done over some time to get to the point where today was chosen as the day of the debate.

I shall use most of the time available to me to focus on a legacy issue in relation to Iraq. That may have come to the attention of some Members when they have seen television footage of families who have experienced the effects of depleted uranium and other weaponry used in Iraq. It seems to have resulted in very unusual levels of birth defects and other conditions, especially among children who were conceived during the Iraq war. I intend to focus on those issues mainly because they are not often talked about and because those are issues on which the Government could be taking more action so that we can understand what happened and learn the lessons from that for the future.

The use of depleted uranium in weapons has been controversial from its development in the 1960s to the present. Much of the work in this area has been done on the effects on veterans, rather than on civilian populations. The Ministry of Defence discovered in the early research and development programme that depleted uranium released a chemical that was toxic and radioactive and that contaminated areas that it had been fired into. The scientific work that has been done, as I said, related mainly to veterans, but in recent years more evidence has been collected from civilian populations, including in Iraq.

The work relating to veterans shows clearly that in certain circumstances depleted uranium has the potential to cause cancer and damage to DNA. It can lead to birth defects and contaminate soil and ground water. Depleted uranium was used in the first conflict in Iraq in 1991 and also in the more recent conflict in very significant quantities. It is thought that 290,000 kg of depleted uranium was fired during the Gulf war in 1991, and that in the first six months of the Iraq invasion 140 kg of depleted uranium was used. Studies of the effects on civilian populations which have been made public so far show a staggering rise in birth defects among Iraqi children conceived in the aftermath of the war, with high rates of miscarriage, toxic levels of lead and mercury contamination and spiralling numbers of birth defects ranging from congenital heart defects to brain dysfunctions and malformed limbs. Compelling evidence seems to link these birth defects and miscarriages to military assaults.

We cannot sure whether these are due to depleted uranium or the effects of other ammunition used in the area, but it is clear that there are particularly high levels of birth defects, for example, in Falluja, where the United States has admitted using white phosphorous shells, although it has not admitted using depleted uranium. Findings published in the Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology are the latest in a series of studies suggesting a link between bombardment and a rise in birth defects. Its findings in 2010 prompted the World Health Organisation to launch an inquiry into the prevalence of birth defects in the area affected. Although that report was expected to be published last year, it still has not appeared. Some claim that it is being buried and 58 scientists have written to the Iraqi Government and the World Health Organisation calling for its immediate publication. It is right that we, as elected politicians, ask the British Government to use their influence and power to do everything they can to ensure that as much information about these issues is brought into the public domain.

As a result of previous work, the Work Health Organisation is looking at nine high-risk areas in Iraq, including Falluja and Basra. We need to say clearly that we want that information in the public domain. We must do more to work out exactly the impact that some of the weaponry used in modern warfare has on civilian populations. Perhaps in previous centuries the effects of war were felt predominantly by military people and those who went to war, but one of the clear effects of modern warfare is that many of the types of weaponry used have long-term implications for civilian populations.

Of the studies that have been made available in the public domain, one shows that more than half of the babies born in Falluja between 2007 and 2010 were born with a birth defect. Before the siege the figure was more like one in 10, and prior to the turn of the millennium fewer than 2% of babies were born with a birth defect. According to that study, in the two years after 2004 more than 45% of all pregnancies surveyed ended in miscarriage, whereas the figures before the bombing were below 10%. Between 2007 and 2010, one in six of all pregnancies ended in miscarriage. The research that is in the public domain is clearly incredibly concerning.

Another piece of research looked at the health histories of 56 families in Falluja and examined births in Basra in southern Iraq, which was attacked by British forces in 2003. It found that more than 20 babies in 1,000 were born with births defects at the maternity hospital in 2003, which is 17 times higher than the rate recorded a decade previously. In the past seven years, the number of malformed babies born has increased by more than 60%, to 37 in every 1,000.

We have spoken a great deal today about the politics that led up to the decision to take forces into Iraq in 2003, and that is absolutely proper, but the reality is that families in Iraq are now dealing with the aftermath of decisions that might have been taken by the British Government and the action of British and other troops. I think that it is beholden on Parliament to insist that the Government do everything they can to ensure that this is researched more thoroughly. We must try to find the facts and see whether there is evidence linking the use of particular types of weaponry and the effects on civilian populations, and we must ensure that any lessons are learned for whatever future actions we might be involved in.

16:23

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

It is an honour to follow such a passionate and well-informed speech from the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark). I think that we are all indebted to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for securing the debate, and I apologise to her for not arriving in time to hear her speech—I was opening a job show in my constituency first thing this morning—which by all accounts was a powerful introduction to the debate.

Although I was not a Member of Parliament at the time, I am very proud that the Liberal Democrats played such a strong role in opposing the war. I am particularly proud of the role played by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy), who was leader of the Liberal Democrats at the time, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell). The hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) talked about the breadth of the coalition that opposed the war and said that it was not just made up of predictable left wingers. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife is far from being a raging pacifist leftie. He is a thoughtful and distinguished advocate and is now, as he was then, a distinguished spokesman on international affairs. That voices such as his were ignored at the time is a measure of just how dogmatic certain people in the Labour Government were.

I have found this debate very humbling, not only because of the first-hand accounts of intelligence, diplomacy and military experience that we have heard from people who were connected to the war in different respects, but because of the emotion shown by those who were, in effect, forced to vote against their own colleagues in their own party. The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) made a very powerful speech about that. We have heard about the bitter regret felt by those who feel that they were misled into voting for the wrong thing. We should also remember the members of the Government who honourably resigned over this issue—Robin Cook, John Denham and others who gave up their ministerial careers. The emotions are clearly almost as strong now as they were then.

We have heard powerful descriptions of what felt like the inevitable momentum towards war. That was certainly felt outside Parliament as well. Those of us who were watching from the outside might not have picked up on all the details of the parliamentary debates, but every day we saw the pictures of the troops gathering in Saudi Arabia and had the sense that it was something that simply could not be stopped, no matter how many people marched, no matter what arguments were deployed and no matter what intelligence was presented to counter what was in the dodgy dossier.

If the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) is right, that momentum had started long before. He mentioned the Crawford summit in April 2002, when Tony Blair stood shoulder to shoulder with George Bush. That was reinforced at subsequent summits between the two of them. Although I have a lot of respect for the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), it is not really credible to say that the leaders did not know the detail or had not had time to read it. I am sure that the detail of the intelligence on the military situation and the situation inside Iraq was all gone into in enormous detail, as was the legal advice. As everybody has said, the Chilcot report is long overdue, and we need to start to hear about the detail of the decision-making process. Some of the documents that are still not public need to be made public. It looks from the outside as though there was a deliberate collaboration in creating that momentum towards war in order to make it inevitable.

We have to allow that some aspects of that political mission had, in a sense, some honour to them. Saddam’s was a despicable regime. Thousands died in the chemical attacks in Halabja in 1988. There was also the massacre and destruction of the entire lifestyle of the Marsh Arabs in 1991 following the first Gulf war. There might have been a psychological element for George Bush in the sense that, according to the conservative psychology, his father had left the job half done in allowing the massacre of the Marsh Arabs to take place, because they had risen up in the expectation that they would be supported by the allied forces, but they were not.

We should remember that since 1991 there had been a safe haven in Iraq for the Kurds, reinforced from 1992 by the no-fly zone described on the basis of first-hand experience by the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney). Perhaps George Bush felt that he did not want to repeat his father’s error of betraying people in Iraq who were opposed to the regime. Perhaps the psychology of 9/11 also made people feel the need to do something to give some substance to the supposed war on terror, which, to me, has always had a slightly Orwellian ring to it.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman will perhaps recall the light-hearted quip at the time that for the US and UK to invade Iraq would be as though after Pearl Harbour the United States had invaded Mexico—it would have been as peculiar and as odd as that.

[Martin Horwood]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point.

There was the emotional declaration of the war on terror but then a feeling that it did not have much substance. I think that those in the conservative right in the United States were searching for something to give it more edge and substance, and perhaps that was part of the psychology that led them to towards war. The psychology of the British Prime Minister involved is something that I will not go near.

I am not one of those who now hope that the decision will be proved wrong by the failure of Iraqi democracy. I hope that Iraqi democracy will succeed and that a stable, federal state will emerge from the continuing conflict. I do not want to paint everything that is happening in Iraq as being as bad as or worse than it was under Saddam. Nevertheless, I think that those hon. Members who voted against the war made the right decision and I am very proud that Liberal Democrats did so. There are three central reasons why I think they were right to oppose the war.

First, there really was no case: there were no weapons of mass destruction. A few years later, after I had become an MP, I remember Hans Blix telling a meeting in Parliament that he had wanted and had pleaded for more time and that, had they been given it, the weapons inspectors could have established the facts of the case, but of course they were evacuated to make way for the invasion. It was not Iraq that stopped the weapons inspections; it was the United States and the UK. As the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton has said, the intelligence on which that action was based was old and out of date.

There was no immediate humanitarian crisis. In Syria and Libya, and even in Bosnia, people were dying or being threatened with blood baths, but that was not the case in Iraq. There was no immediate humanitarian justification for intervention. If there was a secondary reason—this was sometimes mentioned—it was the idea that Saddam might be in cahoots with al-Qaeda, but that also turned out to be completely imaginary. In fact, the precise opposite, if anything, was true. Subsequently, of course, we have seen the emergence of al-Qaeda in Iraq as a substantial force of Sunni jihadists, and it is now spilling over into Syria, where a direct offshoot of al-Qaeda in Iraq, Jabhat al-Nusra, is making that conflict worse. The repercussions of the intervention are extraordinary, but there was no fundamental case for it, as we were told there was.

Secondly, our party’s view is that the war was illegal. We have still not seen the then Attorney-General’s advice to the Government. UN resolution 1441 is cited, but as other Members have said, it did not provide a legal justification for invasion. Actually, its central concern was with the weapons inspection regime, which, as I have said, was brought to an end by the invasion. The weapons inspectors were evacuated because of the invasion. They were not prevented from continuing their work by Iraq.

Hon. Members’ speeches and the recent excellent BBC documentary have highlighted how the real political objective was clearly regime change and that other arguments and cases were deployed tactically to try to support it. Perhaps regime change was a laudable objective—Saddam was a terrible dictator—but the only complication is that regime change is illegal under international law; we therefore participated in an illegal invasion.

The third crucial reason why it was wrong to go to war was the political and diplomatic effort behind it. It was not a united international effort. In the end, the troops were from, I think, the United States, Britain, Australia and Poland. Others might want to correct me. Perhaps Spain was involved as well. NATO was disunited, the French were in opposition and the region was disunited. The United Nations was certainly disunited and the Secretary-General warned that the invasion would be in contravention of the UN charter if it went ahead. This was cowboy diplomacy. It was almost the kind of unilateral interventionism of which the world needs to be very fearful. The decision to invade posed a danger not just to the people of Iraq—although it certainly did—but to the whole world, because it could be used as justification for anybody’s decision to intervene without international sanction, regional support or a proper legal case.

I think that the coalition Government have learned those lessons. The recent intervention in Libya stands in stark contrast to the invasion of Iraq. There were no allied boots on the ground. It was a limited intervention, even though militarily it was a simpler prospect than Iraq. There was clear sanction from a UN resolution and an immediate humanitarian case. There was also united regional support in the Arab world. We can say collectively—those who are in the Government in particular—that we have learned the lessons of what went on in Iraq.

We now have the strange situation in which we are still waiting for the final chapter: the Chilcot report. We have been waiting for four years. That is almost as long as Britain’s military intervention in Iraq. If it carries on for much longer, it will outlast the war itself. That report will raise deep and serious questions that we still want answers to. For the former Prime Minister, it will raise some threatening legal issues and some deep questions about his role in taking us to war. The irony of ironies is that in the meantime, he has been made a peace envoy to the middle east, which I find extraordinary. All credit to him for the role that he has played subsequently in trying to bring peace to the region. However, we still need to ask how and why he took us to war. We need the Chilcot report and we need it soon.

16:26

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

I join other Members in congratulating the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing this debate. I know that considerable effort went into that, and it is good that many hon. Members have been able to share their various insights. Some Members have recalled the events in Parliament during the build-up to the vote. Others have shared their experiences of the situation in Iraq before the invasion, of delivering the invasion or of coping with the consequences of the invasion and making the best of the difficult situation that had been created for all.

Like other hon. Members, I acknowledge at the outset that we have heard some telling contributions. As well as the opening speech by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion, which I heard only part of because of other commitments, there was a particularly telling contribution from the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas). His measured and well-meant speech got to the heart of the issue in a way that should make all of us feel uncomfortable, although in a positive way. All of us in Parliament, before we just bunch with our herd, put on our blinkers and vote the way we are asked, should think deeply about the issues. We need to inform ourselves and must not just rely on Whips’ whispers. Whatever we are paid, we are paid well enough to inform ourselves and we get a further allowance to help others inform us as well.

I was struck, as were other Members, by the speech by the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). I cannot match the insights of the hon. Members for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) and for South Thanet (Laura Sandys), who spoke of their personal experiences in situ and showed an understanding of many of the complications in Iraq.

Along with other politicians from Northern Ireland, I have taken part in exchange visits with Iraqi politicians and those who are trying to build civil society in Iraq. We know that the insights that we get into their situation and the aftermath of the invasion are limited. However, while I do not disagree with anything that other hon. Members have said about the poor state of Iraq, its levels of corruption and the deep economic mire that it is in, I would not want our words about those issues or the political questions that we exchange to detract from the good work that many people are undertaking in Iraq, not least those in civil society and those who are trying to build honour and purpose in what passes for the democratic process in that country. We must reinforce those who are trying to do good and take things forward in that very difficult situation. No matter how we try to write off this war and what followed it as a foreign policy and military misadventure on the part of the Government, we should not do anything to write off the democratic purpose and progressive effort that elements in Iraq are trying to undertake.

I was not a Member of the House in the period building up to the war, but I am glad to say that SDLP Members opposed the war, along with the other nationalist parties, the Liberal Democrats, a significant number of Labour Members, and some considerate Conservative Members. At the time, I was leader of my party and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, although of course we were all suspended in October 2002. During that period, however, I had a number of exchanges and meetings with Tony Blair at which—believe it or not—we talked about more than just Northern Ireland.

I recall that in November 2002, Tony Blair convened a meeting in Downing street with leaders of the European socialist and Labour parties. We were supposed to be discussing common challenges across Europe, but the working lunch that Tony Blair addressed was very much focused on Iraq. In particular, he was trying to allay the concerns that he knew were felt by members of his sister parties across the EU. I remember being struck by the argument he was making for what he was trying to do. He used language saying that he was trying to be the mooring rope that would keep the American impulse closer to where Europe would want. He said he was trying to be a bridge between America and Europe, and that was why he was getting so close to George Bush and maintaining a strong relationship with the American Administration.

He said he believed that if the Americans were committed to the war anyway there needed to be a restraint on any intervention, and he believed that his strong alliance could provide such a constraint. He argued that action could contribute to reigniting the peace process in the middle east. He felt that if America ended up going in on its own, it would be hopeless to think that anything positive could be done in the middle east, whereas if America went in with European support, the requirement that would come with that support would involve a new beginning to the peace process in the middle east.

Some around the table seemed impressed and mesmerised by that, but I was not. I made it clear—with no discourtesy to our lunch host—that I was not there to admire Tony the bridge, and neither did I believe that what he saw as a mooring rope was how the Americans saw things. From my visits to Washington it was clear that they saw him not as a mooring rope, but as a tow rope by which they hoped to take as much of Europe as they could, and they did not care if Europe was ruptured in the process. In my broad political movement of European sister parties I could see exactly where the strains were showing.

I should acknowledge that whatever criticisms anybody may have, Tony Blair did make a significant contribution to our process, although not as much of one as some of his writings and memoirs suggest, as they seem to write out the fact that everybody else made contributions as well. I did not always agree with his judgment and I certainly never always trusted his word, but I never doubted his motives in relation to our process. I am, however, as confounded as anybody else as to how he got himself into such a position and the mental convolutions of his rationale on Iraq.

I had the opportunity to talk to both Tony Blair and George Bush in Hillsborough in the weeks after the invasion of Iraq. I was the first party leader to protest at the fact that George Bush’s visit to Hillsborough conflated meetings on the Irish peace process with meetings on the prosecution of the war in Iraq. Despite attempts by the Northern Ireland Office and the British Government to limit or put conditions on people’s presence in Hillsborough, I was allowed to present a petition of two wallpaper scrolls, which was organised by Amnesty International in the Foyle constituency and the north-west region more widely. The petition was not simply a protest against the war; as we would expect from a thoughtful organisation such as Amnesty International, the petition focused on the responsibilities that the invading powers had to the civilian population in Iraq—their duties were not just observing human rights and security, but ensuring infrastructure, utilities and the proper operation of commercial or other transactions.

Protocol did not allow me to hand the petition to the President of the United States, as he was a visiting Head of State. Instead, the two scrolls rested on a chair. I was able to tell the President they were there for him. Not entirely condescendingly, he told me, “You’re a good man, Mark, but you’re wrong and we are right and we are proving it.” Richard Haass, who worked at the State Department and was a special envoy to Northern Ireland, said, “You will see. We will have this finished in weeks.” I asked, “Will we have proof of the weapons?” He said, “Yes, we will have that in weeks, too.”

Looking on was a frowning Tony Blair, who looked a bit peeved and a bit jealous. He was obviously annoyed that I had taken that opportunity. I said to him, “Don’t worry, Tony, we haven’t forgotten about you,” and gave him two large bags of postcards containing similar protests and making similar points. Richard Haass probably genuinely believed what he told me. I therefore do not know whether I can join in the sweeping judgments against everybody involved and all parties to the enterprise, which led to such death.

A number of hon. Members have mentioned the parliamentary aspect. We have heard hon. Members’ recollections, including those of the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher), of the considerations and conditioning going into the vote. In my time in Parliament, that same occasion was recalled by Frank Cook, then the hon. Member for Stockton North, when the House voted on 42-day detention. He compared the whipping and briefing that day—he was told, “If you don’t vote for this, the Prime Minister will be forced to resign and it will be a humiliation. Out of loyalty to the Prime Minister, you have to vote for this, otherwise there will be an election”—with the arguments to which he was subjected on the day of the Iraq vote. He said that succumbing to those arguments on the day of the Iraq vote was the biggest regret of his life, and that he would never make that mistake again for any Prime Minister or party.

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion made a key point. We want to ensure that there will be votes in future, but we must ensure that they are honest and honourable. Free votes ensure that people cannot turn round and say, “I voted how I did because it was a vote of confidence. I was opposed to what I voted for, but I voted on a different issue. The issue was confidence and whether we stayed in government or had an election.” We need to ensure not only that there are votes, but that the terms on which votes are taken are the right ones. That is why, when we debated the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act 2011, I opposed any amendment that would have given the Speaker the power to decide what issues were issues of confidence. As issues of confidence can trigger an election and abort a fixed-term Parliament, they would have been abused to confuse what Members were actually voting on. Members would have been told to vote not on the issue, but on whether they wanted an election next week, or their leader out.

On the Chilcot inquiry, I met John Chilcot in the context of the Northern Ireland peace process. Again, I would give a mixed account of his contribution. I worked and talked with him very early on in the Hume-Adams process, and he was encouraging of new engagement and new lines of dialogue opening up between the British Government and all interests in Northern Ireland. After the Castlereagh break-in, he was appointed by the Government to undertake an independent inquiry into it. As I pointed out in a previous debate in the House, his report did not deal with findings on what had happened, how it had happened and who had been involved. Instead, it came up with an ulterior agenda of trying to ensure that MI5 and the security services would in no way find themselves accountable to, or constrained by, the Northern Ireland policing measures introduced under the Patten report. The intention was to try to reroute intelligence policing away from the Patten model—under the chief constable—to one entirely under MI5, beyond any review by the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Policing Board or anybody else.

I made the point, when we discussed the establishment of the Chilcot report, that I knew John Chilcot and that he was someone in whom I could recognise skills and articulacy, but he was not someone whose phone number I would expect to find in Yellow Pages under either I for independence or C for challenging. I hope that my jaundiced judgment is proved wrong when we finally see the Chilcot inquiry report. At times during the inquiry, I was given hope that I would be proved wrong. However, we have been waiting a long time. I was particularly struck by the contribution from the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), who was able to tell us of colourful issues regarding the background, character and composition of the inquiry team. Parliament must be able fully to digest the report, not just respond immediately to a statement on the day. It must be debated subsequently.

In all future debates, as in today’s debate, we need to remember that the issue is not just about what happened here on a parliamentary or political level, and not just about the wrongs of dodgy dossiers and undue whipping. The real issue is the story of what happened to the people in Iraq: the people who were sent out in the name of this Parliament and sacrificed their lives and limbs. They and their loved ones are still wondering what it was all about, and I hope we are not adding to their sorrow, misery or sense of futility by speaking the truth today. The contribution by my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) was important, because it focused on some of the legacy issues for which we in this House bear a collective responsibility. We still have a responsibility towards the people of Iraq.

16:53

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

I thank all right hon. and hon. Members who have taken part in this important and useful debate. The honesty and frankness with which Members have taken part does credit to this place: it has shown the House at its best. I note with interest that no one spoke in defence of the UK’s support for the war. Over and over again, hon. Members emphasised the heavy price paid for the invasion, not only by people in this country, but crucially by people in Iraq, where sectarian violence continues to grow.

The debate focused on looking forward as well as back, and I want quickly to underline a few of today’s conclusions. Hon. Members expressed a lot of support for having free votes—and, crucially, votes based on information—when the House debates going to war. Many hon. Members spoke about the importance of basing our decisions on information. We also heard about the importance of reforming the relationship between the Foreign Office, the military and Parliament to ensure that it works better; about the need for structural changes to the Foreign Affairs, Defence, and Intelligence and Security Committees; and about the significance of Iran and Syria.

Many Members spoke about how the war undermined Parliament’s reputation. I hope that this debate has been a step towards reinvigorating confidence in Parliament. I pay particular tribute to the contribution from the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), whose comments, as everyone said, were from the heart and delivered with a frankness that made us all listen. I would like to pay tribute to other colleagues, too. The anger with which the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) spoke about the level of deception rang out across the House and, I hope, much wider. The hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) spoke powerfully and with an expertise that not many of us in this place have about the importance of acknowledging when we get things wrong and of being able to say that we are failing. He warned of the dangers of thinking that we can only ever succeed.

I thank the Minister for loyally sitting through just about the whole debate, although I cannot thank him for the substance of his remarks, given that he was constrained, as he explained, by the convention preventing him from speaking before Chilcot reports. Waiting for Chilcot is like waiting for Godot. It would be helpful to have that report as soon as possible. The debate lacked a contribution from a Minister made with the same degree—or any degree, frankly—of honesty and frankness about what went wrong as other speeches. [Interruption.] I wanted to give credit to all my wonderful colleagues, but I am being told that my time is up. Is that correct, Mr Deputy Speaker?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

You have had your two minutes, but I am allowing you to continue. I am sure you are coming to an end.

[Caroline Lucas]

The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) made an important point about the conflict of interest of those on the Chilcot inquiry and about the importance of the Attorney-General’s advice being put in the public domain. The hon. Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) talked about the problem of a lack of planning post-Saddam. The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) catalogued many of the deceptions and reminded us that the rules of the House prohibit us from reading out names of the dead.

The hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) shared with us his interesting perspective as a serving officer and what it felt like to be in that position. He stressed that threat is a combination of intent and capacity, which needs to be borne in mind when trying to judge what constitutes a threat. I welcomed the contribution from the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), because he put it clearly on the record that there was very heavy whipping during the vote and that that day, 18 March, was a “horrible day”. The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) implied that the whipping was all very nice, light and happy, but that was not the case.

The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) raised the crucial issue of depleted uranium, while the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) rightly reminded us that Hans Blix pleaded for more time. He did not say it was a lost cause and that war was the only option—on the contrary. Finally, the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) gave us some fascinating insights into the mind of the Prime Minister. Quite how he thought the invasion would help the middle east peace process is a question that will keep me thinking for the rest of the day and beyond.

I apologise to those I have not mentioned in my brief winding-up speech, which has already stretched your kind patience, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the matter of the tenth anniversary of the Iraq War.

Petitions

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

16:59

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

I rise to present a petition on behalf of the users of Walsall Gala baths. A petition in similar terms has been signed by 1,938 people.

The petition states:

The Petition of the users of Walsall Gala Baths,

Declares that the petitioners do not wish to see the closure of the Walsall Gala Baths as they believe that it is important to have swimming facilities in the town centre. Especially and in particular, we do not wish to lose the only brine pool that is centrally located, well used and much appreciated for its medical benefits to many of its users.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take all possible steps to encourage Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council to consider the objections of the local residents.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.

[P001183]

17:00

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

I rise to present a petition that has been collected by Sacred Heart Catholic voluntary academy, in Mere close in Leicester. A similar petition, with 1,000 signatures, was presented to Downing street this morning. The petition has been organised by Catherine McMillan and Catherine Hayles and the year 6 students, who seized on the idea and pushed it through. I also want to mention the headmaster, Gerry Hirst, and the chairman of governors, Father Lally.

The petition declares:

The Petition of a Citizen of the UK,

Declares that the Petitioner believes that the food system is failing the poorest people and that the government should champion aid for small-scale farmers, especially women, to help them access markets and increase their income, bargaining power and voice in decisions; further that the government should champion checks on the power of global food companies, requiring them to report on the lobbying they do and their impacts on human rights.

The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of Commons does all it can to encourage the Government to take such action.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.

[P001184]

Genetic Medicine

Thursday 13th June 2013 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Karen Bradley.)

17:02

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for your patience—and that of the House—in waiting for me to raise this important subject at this time of the week. I also thank the Minister for her presence. I pay tribute to her long interest in this subject, her work at the Department of Health on cancer, screening and public health—she is a tolerant and fair-minded advocate of public health in the Members’ Tea Room—and her interest in the difficulties of the early onset of dementia. I was struck the other day by her moment at the Dispatch Box, when she was greeted with extraordinary affection in the House, which was a sign of the great respect and affection in which she is held and the respect for the work she does.

My interest in this debate comes from a family interest in cancer—an interest that I know is shared by many in the House and across the country. Few families have been untouched by the disease, which is increasingly understood to be a genetic disease. I lost my father and my mother-in-law to cancer, and, as the parent of two children, take a close interest in something that I might have inadvertently passed on to them. I also have an interest because I come to this House after a 15-year career in biomedical research and speak in my role as Government adviser on life sciences, taking a deep interest in how current breakthroughs are changing the assumptions on which we base public policy.

For the purposes of giving some background and declaring an interest, I want to explain what I did in those 15 years. I spent four years running a predictive toxicology business, which looked at drug compounds and analysed their likely toxicology and efficacy in different patient groups. I also spent six years in translational medicine, working with academic health science centres up and down England and Scotland, helping to set up the Scottish translational medicine research institute and working at University college London on the cardiovascular institute and at King’s Health Partners on dementia. I was delighted two years ago to be given the chance to support the Government as life sciences adviser. I stress that I have no ongoing commercial interest in the sector. For the purpose of clarity, I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. It details historical investments, including a very small shareholding in GlaxoSmithKline, which has been passed down through our family since my grandfather met the founder and decided that the then baby milk business might have a good future.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

Foresight!

[George Freeman]

Indeed. The register also shows a very small shareholding in a women’s cancer diagnostics joint venture business that I helped to set up with Cancer Research UK and UCL Partners.

This is a topical debate. We have seen in the newspapers recently the news of Angelina Jolie’s decision to have a double mastectomy, having received a diagnosis of a high chance of developing breast cancer based on the most well-known and acknowledged genetic test, the BRCA mutation. The widespread coverage in the press of her decision has been helpful in raising public awareness, as have the powerful and moving descriptions of the thinking behind her decision and of her husband’s support for her.

Only yesterday in The Times we saw the news of the NHS cancer registration service launching a project to bring together all the available data on the 350,000 types of cancer across the 50-million-patient database in Britain. Over the past month, we have also seen the launch of Cancer Research UK’s contribution to the global alliance on sharing genomic and clinical data. Topically, there is also an ongoing battle in the American Supreme Court involving Myriad Genetics and the ownership of the BRCA gene.

I believe that the revolutions in translational medicine, in experimental medicine and in the personalisation of medicine are a huge force for good. They raise a number of important issues, some of which we might touch on in the debate. By way of illustration, I want to share with the House a couple of stories illustrating how I came to see that force for good in practice.

The first involves a project at King’s Health Partners in south London, led by Professor Simon Lovestone, who is a pioneer in clinical research into psychiatric disorders, particularly dementia. The project is funded by the National Institute for Health Research, and I congratulate the previous Government on putting in place that infrastructure, which we have developed and continued. Professor Lovestone and his team have developed a case register information system, which is a portal for data for the whole of the South London and Maudsley NHS mental health trust, involving 250,000 patients. It brings together all the information, anonymised and in large datasets, on medical records and clinical histories and on the often complex drug histories involved in treating mental health, along with MRI brain scans, to create a powerful database for the purpose of shedding light on the mechanisms of action and the clinical drivers of early-onset and late-onset examples of the disease.

The portal is now being used by researchers on campus for purely academic work, alongside researchers from industry who, quite fairly, pay substantial amounts of money to King’s Health Partners in order to use the facility. They often find themselves working alongside leading-edge researchers. As a result, King’s Health Partners has signed up to a number of collaborations with industry to work on some very expensive drug programmes. That is an example of how data can accelerate academic research and bring academic and industry researchers together in pursuit of a common cause.

The other company that I want to mention is the joint venture set up by UCL Partners called Abcodia. It is based around a database of 250,000 women who are at risk of gynaecological cancer. It was funded by Cancer Research UK and the Medical Research Council over 20 years, but at the end of the academic study, the database was sitting gathering dust. It is now being used as a powerful database to provide all sorts of screening and diagnostic molecular biomarker services, and is helping to identify the biomarkers that predict and are implicated in the onset of gynaecological cancer. It is also a powerful database for all the diseases of ageing in women, many of which are the same in men. It is a powerful tool for understanding the molecular biomarkers and the drivers for the early onset of a whole range of late-life diseases.

These databases are incredibly powerful, and across the NHS and across our university academic health science centres, they are being run under very high standards of ethical and regulatory regimes and with very strong patient consent. One lesson is that where clinician scientists work with patients to do basic and clinical research, patients and the research charities that work with them are hugely supportive of this revolution in genetics and computing.

More than 10 years ago we sequenced the human genome. It was a massive global collective effort, which took several decades and several hundred million pounds to achieve. It now costs about $1,000 to sequence the entire genome of one of us, and it takes no less than 24 hours—and those numbers are falling fast.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

My hon. Friend is to be congratulated on the widely respected work he is doing as a Government life sciences adviser; he really is doing a fantastic job. I congratulate him, too, on securing this debate. I think he is aware of the campaign of my constituent, Les Halpin, to accelerate the use of drugs in the NHS in carefully controlled circumstances on a trial basis for people with terminal illnesses. With the sort of conditions my hon. Friend has been talking about, if we could change the protocol in the medical profession and harness our innovative bio-sciences sector, we could become a world leader in the development of new drugs.

[George Freeman]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, and I pay tribute to his advocacy, on behalf of his constituent Les Halpin, of the access to medicines campaign. We have plans to continue to help support it. My hon. Friend’s point is important, and the point that Les Halpin has made is that people like himself with a terminal disease actively want the opportunity to take part in trials and research so that their disease and suffering will not be in vain. My hon. Friend speaks powerfully on behalf of his constituent and on behalf of those with other diseases who share that view.

The truth is that this revolution of translational personal lives medicine is all about the end of the one-size-fits-all blockbuster model of drug discovery and development. The more we know about disease, the more we discover the genetic predispositions of disease and how different patients respond in different ways both to drugs and to the onset of disease. We discover that what was yesterday one cancer is today three or four and tomorrow will be 30 or 40. This is breaking down the size of markets and requiring a whole new model of research around patients. It puts patients right at the heart of the research process. That is challenging for hospitals and for companies, but ultimately, I believe—we are seeing the evidence—it is good for patients, leading to quicker innovation and quicker access to drugs. It is also good for our life sciences sector. It is a win-win, which is why the Government were right to describe the report on the subject as “health, wealth and innovation”. The three do indeed go together.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister and the Department on the work they are doing in pursuit of the life sciences strategy, particularly on the £100 million cancer genomics project. That provides an extraordinary opportunity for Britain to sequence the genomes of 100,000 patients and combine that information with the clinical data—one of the world’s most precious resources in our NHS—creating a global hub that would put Britain right at the forefront of unlocking this field of cancer genomics.

I pay tribute, too, to the work of the research charities, which do extraordinary work driving funding and research, but also in advocating some of the changes that need to be made. In the time available, I will not be able fully to go through all the information I have received, but the Minister and I may be able to pick up some of the points afterwards.

I do want to say that Cancer Research UK has done a huge amount of work in this field, setting out a very clear analysis of what it wants to see happening—support for NHS provision of genetic tests for inherited cancer risk, improving existing molecular diagnostic services for cancer and strong support for the 100,000-patient cancer genome project.

The Prostate Cancer UK charity—you will remember, Mr Deputy Speaker, the moustache that I sported in the autumn in support of the Movember campaign—has highlighted the fact that nearly 35,000 men are diagnosed with prostate cancer every year and that 215,000 of us are living with the disease. By 2030, it will be the most common cancer in the UK. One in eight men will get prostate cancer at some point in their lives. The genetics of prostate cancer is well behind that relating to other diseases and needs to be accelerated as it is not as well understood. However, recent developments in understanding the genetics of prostate cancer have been crucial to driving up survival rates and showing the potential for future improvements in treatment.

Breast Cancer UK is investing substantial sums in the study of genetics, and the Breast Cancer Campaign has already provided £10 million. It has highlighted the role of Angelina Jolie’s recent decision in drawing public attention to the importance of genetics in providing earlier diagnosis and better treatment.

The Alzheimer’s Society has raised some interesting points. In many respects, Alzheimer’s is the toughest of the blockbuster diseases for us to crack, and it is becoming increasingly apparent that it is one of those diseases that we will not crack through the magic discovery of some drug. What is needed to beat this disease is a completely new model: a massive collective effort by patients and researchers using data and online tools such as PsychologyOnline. The Alzheimer’s Society has said that genetic testing may cause difficulties in some cases. A genetic defect cannot be repaired, effective treatment to slow the disease is not yet available, and the society fears that some premature genetic testing may trigger inappropriate responses.

Genetic Alliance UK has set out a detailed response to the debate, and has issued some important calls. In particular, it has called for the explicit inclusion of genetic testing in NHS England service specifications for all services that may utilise genetic testing. It has also called for investment in research that will help to elucidate the findings of whole genome sequencing and exome sequencing for clinical use, so that the benefits of the technology will be available to patients as soon as possible; for recognition of the importance of clinical genetic services as a resource for single-gene conditions; and for the linking of the commissioning of companion diagnostics with the stratified medicines for which they indicate patient response.

I have referred elsewhere to an Arab spring of health care. I believe that the current revolution—the stratification, targeting and, ultimately, personalisation of therapy, which cancer therapy is leading but in which other therapeutic areas are rapidly making progress—is all about patient empowerment. That applies both to someone like Les Halpin, who was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown)—someone who has a terminal disease, and wants to play his part in ensuring that others do not suffer in the same way—and to much younger patients with an easier diagnosis who want a chance to play their part in research. The aim is to give patients better access to information about their disease, and to earlier treatment. All the research findings show that patients on research programmes respond better, have better outcomes, and appreciate and enjoy—if that is the right word—the process.

There is also an Arab spring of disease charity involvement. Our disease charities are raising ever larger sums, and playing an ever bigger role. Movember, which was started five years ago by two Kiwis who raised $500, has now raised $23 million, and is the world’s biggest prostate cancer charity. It is using the internet and driving social media, establishing research committees, and setting standards for prostate cancer research all over the United Kingdom. The power of computing in genetics is transforming the way in which we conduct medical research.

Lord Saatchi’s Medical Innovation Bill, which is currently in another place but is coming our way, raises a number of the issues to which I have referred. It makes a powerful case for adapting regulations so that clinicians are no longer bound to stick to protocols that they do not believe will be effective. We need to make it easier for clinicians to innovate and to adopt new medicines and new treatments when they think there is a reasonable chance of a better outcome, without in any way undermining their duty to put patients’ interests first.

A number of other campaigns are coming our way. One of my reasons for initiating the debate was to give the Minister a chance to respond to some fairly specific policy questions. They cannot all be answered this evening, but let me present a few of them. Who owns the rights to genetic data, the rights to DNA—that issue has been highlighted by the Supreme Court’s ruling against Myriad Genetics—and the rights to clinical data? Some interesting work done in the other place suggests that, ultimately, we need to establish the idea that the data are ours. Your medical records are yours, Mr Deputy Speaker, and mine are mine. If we put patients at the heart of this, we will build a framework for consent and for enlightenment, which will be all to the good.

Who has the right to be tested, and when tested, what rights do they have to counselling? I want to reiterate that this has nothing to do with the insurance scare stories we sometimes read about in the press. I call again for the insurance moratorium to be extended. This is not about in any way wanting to undermine the ability of those who have had testing to receive health insurance. The point of this revolution is that it is about empowerment. It is about empowering patients actively to seek, and take, more responsibility for their health care earlier in their life, not penalising those who do that. There are also some important questions to be asked about how we open up the NHS to allow greater access to the types of medical breakthroughs that will fundamentally change the way we treat illness and disease in our society.

I am delighted to give the Minister some time to set out the Government’s support both for this important and emerging field and, as the Prime Minister said in his speech in December 2011 launching the life sciences strategy, for the inspiring vision that every patient in the NHS will be a research patient.

17:20

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) on securing this debate and pay a warm tribute to him for the great work he does as the Government’s life sciences adviser. I also thank him for his kind words about me. I pay tribute, too, to my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), who yet again, quite properly, advances the campaign of his constituent, Mr Les Halpin. There is much merit in that campaign, and my hon. Friend has brought it to the Floor of the House before, and so he should. We wish Les Halpin all the very best, and I pay tribute to the great work he has done and the valid points he makes in his campaign. I should also congratulate all the charities my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk mentioned that are concerned with prostate and breast cancer and Alzheimer’s disease; I pay tribute to them for all the work they do on those diseases, and all the campaigning work they do in advancing this topic.

It is a good time to hold this debate, but I fear I will not have enough time to address the subject in as much detail as I would wish. Numerous questions have been asked, and the usual rules apply: if I do not answer any of them, I will, of course, write a letter—or, rather, my officials will write a letter—to my right hon. Friend. I just called my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk my right hon. Friend, and why not?

[George Freeman]

That is very kind.

[Anna Soubry]

Yes, it is very kind of me.

It is a good time to hold this debate, as the development of genomic technologies, based on the individual’s genetic data, is a rapidly developing field that will bring benefits for NHS patients and the economy. The UK is a recognised world leader in scientific research in genetics, and the services that are available to NHS patients are among the best, if not the best, in the world. The NHS, in its unique position as a single, national health care provider, is ideally placed to harness this new technology and reap the benefits.

The data that are obtained from sequencing part of, or the whole, genome are limited in their usefulness unless they are linked to more information on the individual and the results of their treatment. That is why controlled access to patient records will be vital in our efforts to improve diagnostic capability, understand better the epidemiology—I hope I do not struggle in pronouncing that word—of disease and develop better health care tools and treatments.

On generating more data, the issue of ensuring we protect data obtained from an individual’s DNA has been discussed in many different forums, including the 2009 Lords inquiry into genomic medicine in health care and the consequent work by the Human Genomics Strategy Group, which was led by the Department of Health.

In December last year, the Prime Minister announced that we would be the first country in the world to put in place a programme to sequence 100,000 whole genomes. That is part of a programme that will receive an extra £100 million in funding over the next three to five years. The result will be the building of safe platforms of data that will open access.

Now that it is becoming a reality, access to genetic data will continue to be a subject of keen interest to many. It is only right that it is debated on the Floor of this House because it is so important. As with other data, DNA sequence data will be governed by strict legal controls. It will not be shared with other parties in a form that identifies the individual unless there is a legal and appropriate basis for so doing, and where such a legal basis exists, the patient has the right to be informed about how their DNA sequence data are used. The sequencing information will be strictly controlled within existing NHS arrangements and managed in a way that protects patient confidentiality.

As I said, the raw read-out data are of little value to clinicians, researchers or indeed the industry if they cannot be linked to phenotype and clinical data, so we need to ensure that information-rich data sets are developed that have been value-added through linking genetic and genomic data to disease development, treatment and results. Data need to be made available in an environment that fully meets consent and data protection requirements. To ensure that we harness that potential as part of the growth agenda, which my hon. Friend mentioned, we must develop an industry ecosystem that helps to promote innovation within a healthy, competitive economic atmosphere, which respects data protection and consent boundaries and allows open data sharing for academic research.

While the protection of personal data is important, we should not forget that sharing data has immense benefits. Those patients with cancer or rare diseases who will have their whole genome tested as part of the Prime Minister’s initiative may well argue that they want more of their data to be shared, to help research into their condition and to help fellow sufferers. The recent review carried out by Dame Fiona Caldicott recognised that people’s concerns about what happens to their information, who has access to it and for what purposes, is hugely important; but people also raise concerns about why their data are not shared more frequently when common sense tells us all that it really should be. On the other hand, there was high level of anxiety among some clinicians about when it is safe to share information and what safeguards are required, including concerns about breaching data protection laws or threats to their professional status.

Clearly, a cultural change is required to rebalance sharing and protecting information in patients’ and service users’ interests. We believe that the Caldicott recommendations strike a good balance between the rights of the individual and the need to develop new treatments and services for the greater good. There is no contradiction between demanding rigorous safeguarding of personal information and enthusiasm about sharing information. We want to develop systems that provide open data from what we call safe platforms. There should be no surprises to patients or service users about who has access to their information, and they should be fully informed about their rights in relation to their data. That includes explaining to individuals how their information will be used, including de-identified information, and that it may be used for public health prevention and research, as well as providing assurance that any misuse will be tackled vigorously.

If we are to get better, less fragmented care and to harness the potential of genetic and genomic data for the benefit of all, any lack of trust between individuals, be they individual patients or organisations, in relation to their practice of information governance has to be overcome. The Department of Health research indicates clear public support for using health and care information in research to better inform and develop new treatments. We want to ensure that individuals retain consent to any use of their personal information. That is why we have asked the chief medical officer, Professor Dame Sally Davies, to retain oversight of the programme to sequence 100,000 whole genomes, to ensure that the patient and public interest is protected.

I pay tribute again to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk. We could have a huge debate on this subject, and I apologise again that we do not have the time to take it further today, but as I said, I shall ensure that he has a response to all his questions. He has kindly provided me with many of them already, and my officials have compiled a long, long set of answers—far too long for this short speech. He will be in full possession of our responses, and I am sure that he will share them throughout the industry. I thank him again for all his hard work.

Question put and agreed to.

17:29

House adjourned.

Westminster Hall

Thursday 13th June 2013 Westminster Hall

Thursday 13 June 2013

[Mr Andrew Turner in the Chair]

Dog Control and Welfare

Thursday 13th June 2013 Westminster Hall

[Relevant documents: Dog Control and Welfare, Seventh Report of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, Session 2012-13, HC 575, and the Government response, Session 2012-13, HC 1092.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Nicky Morgan.)

13:30

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

A very warm good afternoon to you, Mr Turner; I welcome you to your place. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I also welcome my hon. Friend the Minister from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). My hon. Friend is not just an hon. Friend but a reasonable man, and I am sure that he will respond warmly and enthusiastically to our debate.

The Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is pleased to have this opportunity to debate the issues addressed in our two recent documents: the report “Dog Control and Welfare” and the draft Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) Bill, which we have tagged on to the report and which encompassed the Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny of draft clauses that now form part of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill.

Dog control and welfare issues have been central for the Select Committee over the past 12 months. Out-of-control dogs are an increasing menace: hospital admissions due to dog attacks doubled from 3,000 in 1997 to more than 6,000 in 2010, and a conservative estimate of the cost to the national health service is approximately £3 million a year.

Not all episodes are reported. I was bitten in a rather tender place at the top of my thigh—I still bear the scar—but I chose not to report the attack, as I was out canvassing and the dog was owned by a Conservative supporter. There are many reasons why people might choose not to report attacks. Dog offences might go under-reported.

Sadly, nine people have been killed since 2007 by dog attacks in the home. Five of those victims were under the age of four. Opposition Members here have had constituency experience of such cases, and I commend how they have represented those who have suffered such losses. Offences relating to dangerous dogs increased by 39% in one year alone—from 855 in 2009 to 1,192 in 2010. As we know, some eight guide dogs a month are attacked by other dogs. We also know that there are countless attacks on other dogs and protected animals, such as cats, horses and livestock. That has huge implications for rural constituencies such as mine, particularly for livestock—there are sheep-worrying incidents at this time of year, for example.

In May 2012, we launched an inquiry on the Government’s policies for tackling irresponsible dog ownership and improving dog welfare, particularly those linked to breeding approaches. I pay tribute to the charities doing work on the issue, including Blue Cross in my constituency and Battersea Dogs Home in London.

We were fortunate to be able to launch our inquiry at Battersea Dogs Home, see at first hand the impact of policies on dog welfare and hear about the impact of poor breeding practices and irresponsible ownership on individuals and communities. A leading charity, Blue Cross, talks at great length about stray dogs and shares the Committee’s concern about the impact of this financial climate, particularly on dog warden services across the UK. A recurring theme throughout our inquiry was resourcing and ensuring that dog wardens have sufficient resources.

I believe that one event leading to the increase in the number of stray dogs on our streets was the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005, which transferred the responsibility from the police to local authorities, not all of which see it as ring-fenced and obligatory. That must be tackled.

Sadly, since we launched our inquiry last summer, four more people have lost their lives in dog attacks, including, most recently, the teenager Jade Anderson, who was attacked just before Easter by four dogs in a private home. A pensioner was also attacked in Liverpool last month. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), who represents Jade’s parents, for initiating in May an Adjournment debate on dangerous dogs. I had the opportunity to meet Jade’s parents through her, for which I was grateful. I thank her and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) for all that they have done to raise the issue in the public domain.

During our inquiry, we were moved to hear from a constituent of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree —the mother of John Paul Massey, another child killed by a dog. He was just four years old when a relative’s pit bull attacked him at his grandparents’ home in 2009. His mother, Angela McGlynn, and the many others from whom we received evidence want urgent Government action to tackle out-of-control dogs.

We reported in February this year, with a number of recommendations for Government on what improvements could be made to the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 and other legislation. The Committee has also had the opportunity to scrutinise draft clauses on dangerous dogs, published as the draft Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) Bill on 9 April. Subsequently, the Government published the measures with the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill on 9 May, and we published our pre-legislative scrutiny report on 16 May.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

I know that all the families affected will welcome this debate. Does the hon. Lady share my concern and regret that the Government, as she outlined, published the Bill before receiving the Select Committee’s response? Does she share my sentiment that that was highly regrettable?

[Miss McIntosh]

I think that the Committee would like to record our disappointment that it took so long to produce the draft legislation yet the Government were unable to wait. As Members will know, the one time when a Select Committee cannot meet is during Prorogation, between the House rising to represent the end of one parliamentary year and it reconvening.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Could the Government make good that slight on the Committee by introducing draft guidance—they have plenty of time—on the provisions introducing not dog control notices but other measures? Then we could see the draft guidance not on Report but in Committee. There is plenty of time and the Committee could give the scrutiny that it has given to the wider range of measures needed.

[Miss McIntosh]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I am sure that the Minister will have heard his remarks; I hope he will endorse what the hon. Gentleman has said.

We had only eight sitting days to conclude our work. We are grateful to the 40 or so individuals and organisations who sent written evidence on a tight time scale, and to those who gave oral evidence. That demonstrates the importance that many attach to finding better ways to tackle dangerous dogs. In our pre-legislative scrutiny report, we made numerous recommendations for improving the draft Bill, which we now expect the Government to amend. As I said to my hon. Friend the Minister, the Committee stands prepared to table amendments to improve the Bill if we think fit.

We feel that the Bill shows that the Minister has not fully understood the public concern about dangerous dogs, nor have Government policies matched the action required. Our headline findings are that the Government have failed to respond adequately to public concern about dog attacks and poor dog welfare; that legislation must be amended urgently to protect the public from dangerous dogs; that current laws have comprehensively failed to tackle irresponsible dog ownership; and that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs proposals published belatedly in February are too limited.

The evidence we received from DEFRA and the Home Office did little to reassure us that either Department is giving sufficient priority to dog control and welfare issues. The Home Office approach to tackling antisocial behaviour is too simplistic. Indeed, when we were in opposition, the Conservatives felt that antisocial behaviour was not the right vehicle. The legislation fails to reflect the impact that poor breeding and training by irresponsible owners can have on a dog’s behaviour.

We recommended that DEFRA should introduce comprehensive legislation to consolidate the fragmented rules relating to dog control and welfare. New rules should give enforcement officers more effective powers, and our key recommendation is to include dog control notices, such as those already in use in Scotland, to prevent dog-related antisocial behaviour.

We also found that local authorities need to devote more resources to the effective management of stray dogs or else consideration should be given to returning responsibility to the police. We stand by that recommendation. The Committee agreed that all dogs should be microchipped, as much for animal welfare as for controlling dangerous dogs, and that being able to link an animal to its owner was essential to clamp down on irresponsible dog ownership.

On a personal note, may I remind the House that when we had dog licensing—I am sure the Minister will confirm this—only 50% of dog owners bought a dog licence in any one year? The House and the public expect us to bear down on the irresponsible dog owners who did not purchase a licence and who may not microchip.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee for her excellent speech, and I apologise for interrupting it. She mentioned the issue of dog microchipping, which is extremely important to combat many of the problems that she has outlined with dangerous and stray dogs. It is the Government’s current intention to introduce such a measure in 2016. The position in respect of horses is the same, so should it not be possible with modern technology to accelerate the process?

[Miss McIntosh]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention. It is important that we get the measure right. The parallel with horse passports is appropriate, but we need to see the guidance and exactly how the programme will be rolled out. Microchipping is an important tool, but it is not the full answer.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I thank the Chair of the Select Committee for giving way and compliment her on her report. She makes the point that when dogs were supposed to be licensed, only 50% of owners complied with the requirement. The same will be true of microchipping: the responsible owners will carry it out and the irresponsible will not. Does she agree that it should be a serious offence not to have a dog microchipped and that that offence should be subject to punishment?

[Miss McIntosh]

My hon. Friend reinforces the Select Committee’s point that the microchip is a tool but not the whole answer. We fear that we will find out which are the unmicrochipped dogs when they are left abandoned as strays on the street, when it is impossible to bear down on the irresponsible dog owner. Each and every one of us has a role to play if we see dubious breeding activities or dubious behavioural activities in dogs. I hope that goes some way to answering my hon. Friend’s point.

The Committee agreed with the Government’s proposed amendment of the 1991 Act, which makes attacks on private land the same as attacks on public land, and we welcome the fact that that loophole will be closed. It will go some way to reassuring people, such as the parents of Jade Anderson, that such horrendous attacks will not happen in the future. However, we warned that police and prosecutors must distinguish between intruders and those who are lawfully on a person’s property when enforcing the law. That is reflected in the representations we received for today’s debate from Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, Blue Cross, Dogs Trust and other such charities.

Having seen the details of how the measure would be enacted, we recommended in our May pre-legislative scrutiny report a number of changes to the proposed clauses. I hope that the Minister will look favourably on the key recommendation that the proposed clauses be amended to enable the exemption from prosecution for someone whose dog attacked an intruder to apply to sheds and other enclosed buildings associated with the home and not just to the main home. That relates to the vexatious argument of curtilage and other appendages. Perhaps he can update us today on that matter.

The Government give assurances that mitigating circumstances for dog attacks in gardens and other open spaces around the home will be taken into account by the courts and enforcement agencies. To safeguard legitimate visitors to a property, such as postal and health workers, we thought it reasonable for the householder exemption from prosecution to apply only to buildings, not to open spaces around the home. The briefing we have had from the Communication Workers Union highlights the staggering number of attacks on postal workers in any one month, and in any one year.

[Luciana Berger]

As the hon. Lady rightly highlights, the CWU makes that point strongly, because of the number of people who have to go to the front door of a property, whether they are a postman or woman, social worker, health visitor or meter reader. In Liverpool just a few weeks ago, Clifford Clarke tragically lost his life when two out-of-control dogs attacked him while he was cooking a barbecue in his garden, so I very much welcome and support the hon. Lady’s comments.

[Miss McIntosh]

The Committee and I welcome what the hon. Lady says. When I visited the Blue Cross home in my own constituency, which looks after stray cats and dogs, I saw how massive a bullmastiff is. It would easily have pushed me over if it had leapt up. It is a worrying issue, especially for those who cannot enjoy the safety of their own home and garden. We need to distinguish between responsible dog owners, who, for example, secure the gates to their back or front garden, and those who are negligent over whether their dog is allowed to cause injury.

We also recommended that the definition of an assistance dog be amended to prevent the erroneous application of the assistance dog measures to dogs that are not genuine assistance dogs. We are pleased that the Government amended the draft clauses to allow the exemption from prosecution for householders whose dog attacks a trespasser to apply whether or not someone was home at the time of the attack.

The Committee believes that the current legislation before the House has gaps and needs to go further. We concluded that the Government’s proposals were insufficient and that a comprehensive overhaul of the legislation is needed, including the consolidation of the several dozen statutes that impinge on the issues, and that remains our view. I am talking about not just the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 but the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 and a whole host of legislation that pertains to that area.

On Second Reading of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill on Monday, there was unanimous support for our recommendation that targeted dog control notices such as those in place in Scotland be introduced to give police and local authorities effective measures to tackle irresponsible dog owners before their dog inflicts harm. It is that preventive measure that is the key to controlling dangerous dogs and potentially dangerous behaviour.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Once again, I commend the Chair of the Select Committee on her contribution. Does she agree that the Government have listened to many of the evolving concerns and have acted to respond to them, but the one remaining thing they need to do is listen to the Committee and not be governed by the directives of the usual channels? Should there be overwhelming consensus on a point such as dog control notices, they should listen and respond accordingly. We are not daft, because we have based our views on what we see in Scotland and elsewhere.

[Miss McIntosh]

I welcome the intervention by the hon. Gentleman; I am tempted to call him my hon. Friend. On a number of issues, this Government have proved that they listen. As I have mentioned, my hon. Friend the Minister is indeed a deeply reasonable man and I am sure that he will pass the test of reasonableness as the Bill goes through. It is, of course, a Home Office piece of legislation, but the clauses that I have referred to relate to DEFRA.

In our pre-legislative scrutiny report, we made a recommendation that a dog attack that injures any protected animal—such as other dogs, cats, horses or livestock—should be deemed an offence. I pay tribute not only to the dog charities but to Cats Protection, which supports this recommendation. It is very important that attacks on other animals—such as other dogs, cats and horses, whose riders might be seriously injured, and especially livestock—should be addressed.

The Committee was also concerned about the provisions under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 that currently ban certain types of dog, regardless of temperament, while excluding other aggressive breeds. In our pre-legislative scrutiny report, we called for a focus on the owner rather than on dog type, given that any dog can cause harm if it has an irresponsible owner—deed rather than breed.

To tackle stray dogs, we need to have a properly resourced dog warden service in all local authority areas. We also need to be aware of the increasing number of aggressive dogs that are being abandoned and of the additional burden on local authorities and dog charities, which are already overstretched. I have mentioned the provisions of the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 that might be leading to more stray dogs coming on to our streets.

On dog breeding, we criticised the Government for doing too little to tackle poor breeding practices. Relying on voluntary action has not delivered sufficient reform, and the Advisory Council on the Welfare Issues of Dog Breeding should be given a formal regulatory role to enforce standards.

[Luciana Berger]

The hon. Lady has been generous in allowing me to make many interventions. On the point about breeding, she might be aware that in recent weeks an online petition has gathered almost 20,000 signatures from people who are urging the Government to look seriously at the issue. The petition specifically wants to ensure that when people buy new pets they should, first and foremost, get them from rescue homes wherever possible and, secondly, not buy them from breeders that separate a new pup from its mother. There is a big campaign, “Where’s Mum?”

[Miss McIntosh]

Indeed. That was one of our conclusions. One hesitates to use the word “bitch”, but in this debate it is appropriate. No puppy should be sold without the mother—the bitch—being present. That is so important, and I pay tribute to those who have done so much to highlight it.

Again, things should be done on the basis of deed not breed. However, we need to look at the ban on certain types of dog in the 1991 Act. That Act has not prevented attacks. There have been ways of “breeding round” the ban, which should be addressed.

We were especially concerned about the poor welfare of puppies and dogs, due to common breeding practices among puppy farmers and some pedigree breeders. Our report calls for any breeder producing more than two litters per year to be licensed and subject to welfare checks; I hope that goes some way to addressing the concerns expressed by the hon. Lady. That simple change could help to prevent irresponsible breeders from producing more animals than they are able to manage effectively, which are then sold on to unsuitable owners for profit.

To sum up, we welcome the extension of legislation to attacks on private property and to attacks on assistance dogs. However, we believe that it is something of a wasted opportunity not to have pursued a fuller, wider, more comprehensive consolidation of all the laws in this area. Also, I urge the Minister to introduce dog control notices and to persuade his colleagues in the Home Office that those are a much better tool than some other measures.

On sentencing, it has been put to me by a constituent that a sentence of two years is insufficient for a fatal dog attack. Death by dangerous driving carries a 14-year prison sentence, whereas death by careless driving carries a five-year prison sentence. Where prosecutions under these new laws on dogs are brought, perhaps somewhere between a five-year and a 14-year jail term would be a more fitting tribute to those loved ones who have been lost rather than the two-year term that is being proposed.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

As with driving offences, we must differentiate between those people who are deliberately setting their dogs on other people and deliberately training their dogs to be vicious and to be attack dogs, and those who have not cared for their dog appropriately, with the result that the dog becomes vicious. Two years in jail is inadequate, as the hon. Lady said, particularly for those people who have deliberately set out to use their dog as a weapon.

[Miss McIntosh]

Indeed. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for those comments. I do not know if that was what the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ogmore, had in mind when he said that the guidance should be published. However, it is obviously for the Sentencing Council to direct what the sentence should be. Nevertheless, I hope that the message will go out from the House today that we are united in our concern in this regard, and that the sentence should be appropriate for what is judged to be effectively a new crime.

To conclude on sentencing, I refer to our concern about resources in relation to local authorities. There should be dog wardens in each area. Also, the police should be properly funded and resourced with a tool more akin to a dog control notice, which we know already works successfully in one part—Scotland—of the United Kingdom.

I will conclude by saying that action is urgently needed on these key issues. Clearly, there is a balance to be struck between the freedoms of responsible dog owners—I wish to record that the vast majority of dog owners in this country are indeed responsible—to enjoy their pets, and the need to protect the public from those who are not responsible and who do not control their dogs responsibly. The welfare of dogs, other animals and local communities must be protected from the actions of irresponsible dog owners. We are deeply grateful for the opportunity to rehearse these arguments, and I urge the Government to act on the Committee’s recommendations.

13:49

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I start by saying how much I welcome the two reports on this issue from the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee. I congratulate its Chair, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), and her Committee on all the work that they have done on this issue, their excellent campaigning and the reports that they have produced.

In addition, I echo the Chair’s commendation of the charities that have also been involved in campaigning on this issue. I also commend the Communication Workers Union, the Royal College of Nursing, the British Veterinary Association and all the other organisations that have joined together to urge the Government to take action, and particularly to introduce dog control notices, which I will talk a little bit about in a moment.

I share the Committee’s disappointment that the Government are not introducing holistic legislation to cover the issues of dog control and dog welfare, because the two cannot be separated. This debate is about control, but fundamentally it is about dog welfare, because the fundamental question is, “Why do dogs attack?” They attack because of how they have been trained, or not trained, and how they have been socialised and educated.

As someone who has tried to get the authorities to take action on a number of occasions, I believe that it would be much more straightforward to have one source for action—one consolidated Bill—rather than having to rely on different pieces of legislation, including some that go back 150 years.

The House is, of course, aware of the tragic death of 14-year-old Jade Lomas-Anderson, and I am grateful to the Chair of the Select Committee for meeting Jade’s parents and for her kind words. Jade was attacked by four dogs—we believe that they were two Staffies and two bull mastiffs—in her friend’s house, where she was staying overnight as a special treat because she had done so well at her new school. By all accounts, Jade was a very bubbly girl who was loved by many people. Her parents, Michael and Shirley, are campaigning for a change in the law—as they say, Jade would have wanted them to—so that no other family has to suffer as they are suffering.

I cannot now say, as I could the first couple of times I spoke about her, that Jade was the last person to die because of dangerous dogs. Since Jade’s death on 26 March, 79-year-old Clifford Clarke has been killed by two dogs in Liverpool. There are 210,000 dog attacks each year and more than 6,000 people are hospitalised each year because of them, so there have been many attacks since Jade’s death.

In Bolton, six-year-old Abigail Boyd was attacked in Farnworth. She was sitting in her garden when a dog that had already been reported to the authorities for being loose came in and bit her. Her eyelid had to be stitched back on and she has deep wounds under her eye. She was lucky not to lose her sight. Two-year-old Ryan Magee was left terrified when he was bitten by a dog tied up outside a community centre, as he and his father were walking past to go in.

Last week, in Atherton, Jade’s home town and mine, there were three attacks by dogs. Even following the attack on Jade, the police’s attitude has not been as one would have wanted, in terms of taking such attacks as seriously as they should be taken. It is fortunate, although I am sure the victim does not feel fortunate, that one person who had to go to hospital after an attack was a young man in his 20s. Had he been a child, it is likely that the dog would have attacked his face.

After every attack, no matter how small or large, there are terrible after-effects and the victim is left traumatised. Earlier this week, I spoke about a farmer who signed my petition. After her cattle were attacked, she was deeply traumatised and unable to sleep for a week. People are left with a lifelong fear of dogs. People suffer life-changing injuries—often children, who have the most terrible facial scarring. I read of somebody recently who lost a foot to a dog attack. In the worst situations, family and friends are left mourning loved ones.

The Government have said that they want to retain remedies under statute and common law, but I encourage them, again, to bring those together under one dog control and welfare Bill, because it is difficult to get action under myriad legislation.

I started doing a little bit of work on this, even before I was elected, when one of my volunteers was attacked by a dog while delivering leaflets for the election. He had gone into the owner’s property to put a leaflet through the door and, as he was bending down, another bull mastiff attacked him, latching on to his arm. Fortunately, it was a man who was attacked, not a child, a woman or somebody of smaller stature. Pat managed to stay on his feet, with the dog still latched on to his arm.

The police could take no action, because it was private property. The owner said, “Of course, we’re going to have our dog put down because of this terrible attack.” The dog is still alive and living in the garden and people are still able to enter it. We asked about the paper boy and the owners said, “Oh, it’s all right. The paper boy knows not to come in.” That is fine, as long as it is that paper boy, but what about a different paper boy, or somebody else—whether a postal worker, the nurse, or some other worker who needs to enter that property?

The ex-mayor of Blackrod lost two cats to attacks. Eventually, we managed to get the police to take action, but initially the response was, “There is nothing that we can do about it,” which illustrates the need to bring legislation together. The ex-mayor of Westhoughton was walking his dog nicely in the park when it was attacked by a loose dog. When he took his dog to the vet, the vet was able to describe the dog likely to have attacked it, because he had seen a stream of people whose dogs had also been attacked. To date, we are not aware of any successful action taken against that owner. Clearly, the authorities have to sharpen up their act.

I was contacted by a constituent soon after Jade’s death who said that, close to Jade’s house, no more than 400 yards away, there is a dog loose in a shared communal garden. We struggled to get anybody to take action about this, because it is supposedly private property, but—hang on a minute—everybody else walks through this garden as well. The police have now instructed the owner to keep the dog muzzled when it is out of the house, but we have still failed to get the housing authorities to take proper action.

We need all the legislation to come together, so that it is easy for action to be taken, but most importantly we need dog control notices. We need that early intervention mechanism, so that when a concern is expressed about a dangerous dog, action can be taken.

[Luciana Berger]

Does my hon. Friend share my concern that the Government’s proposals in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, which they say will deal with this problem, just introduce a new layer of bureaucracy, adding to a lengthy process involving the courts? Conversely, a dog control notice could be issued on the spot and could adequately and properly deal with prevention.

[Julie Hilling]

I agree, and because the proposals are subsumed in antisocial behaviour legislation, not enough priority will to be given to dog attacks. I understand that the police are, potentially, dealing with drugs or other issues, so when somebody is just complaining about a dog barking, for example, how much attention will that get?

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

My hon. Friend makes a good point about prioritising the matter among the wide range of measures that police and community safety agencies have to deal with. There is also the technical, but important, issue of how much time during the progress of a large, complex Home Office Bill will be put aside for debating these issues, which have not been debated enough, technically and in detail. Does she agree that we should definitely find time to do that, and that introducing guidance as rapidly as possible would help us?

[Julie Hilling]

I agree. My hon. Friend raises some important points.

The dog control notice could say, “Keep that dog on a lead”, “Keep it muzzled”, or “Keep it away from children”. I hope that it would state, where necessary, that the dog owner needed to reduce the number of dogs in the household, because the home was not suitable for them. A range of actions could be taken.

We still cannot talk about Jade’s case in detail, but the one complaint we know of was about noise. Had a properly trained person who understood dogs been able to go round at that point, perhaps action could have been taken. I would be the last to say that action could have saved Jade, but the fact that we do not take action at all, apart from saying, “Keep your dogs quiet”, means that we are liable to have more and more of those terrible attacks and tragedies.

[Miss McIntosh]

I am a little concerned that in the debate about dog control notices, which, for the reasons the hon. Lady has given, are specific to a particular dog owner and dog, we will lose the argument because of that business of a dog being muzzled. The dog does not need to be muzzled all the time. It is important to show that we are being reasonable in what we ask.

[Julie Hilling]

Absolutely. I agree that people may be concerned that it is cruel to keep a dog muzzled. However, that is only in specific situations and with specific instructions about what to do with a specific animal. There is also concern that the proposed legislation will get rid of dog control orders as well. Such an order is a good, simple mechanism whereby local authorities can introduce exclusion orders in parks orders about clearing up after dog fouling, orders about keeping dogs on leads in particular areas and orders about people having to put their dog on a lead, if instructed to do so by a responsible person. I am concerned that, again, we may lose those measures in a much larger piece of legislation that does not allow such detail.

I agree with the hon. Lady that we should extend this welcome legislation to other protected animals, including assistance dogs. I see no reason why it should not be extended to other protected animals. If someone’s dog, or other animal, is attacked while they are behaving responsibly, they have to face all the trauma and expense of an injured animal. One indicator of a dog being dangerously out of control is that it attacks other animals. We should take account of that and extend the legislation.

I agree with what has been said about breeding. A dog is much like a child, in that it needs to be properly educated and know its place in the hierarchy. It needs a proper beginning in life, and should not be taken away from its mother too soon. I appreciate that there is now consensus that people breeding more than two litters a year should be registered, but I was interested to hear the comment from the ex-chief vet of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, who believes that anyone who breeds a litter should have their dog registered, even if it is an accidental breeding. That is his personal view, not the RSPCA’s.

[Luciana Berger]

May I correct the record? I previously said that 20,000 people had signed the petition, but the figure is actually more than 30,000. Does my hon. Friend wish to join me in congratulating Pup Aid, which put together the petition, and Marc Abraham, who is the vet leading the charge? I hope the Government will sincerely respond to the need to consider dog breeding, particularly the need not to separate pups from their mothers too soon.

[Julie Hilling]

I join my hon. Friend in congratulating the people involved. Dogs are similar to children, and early intervention, early training—I do not know about early training of children—early socialisation, and all those sorts of thing are crucial to ensuring that at the end we have a well behaved dog and owners who understand what to do.

There is lack of education, starting with which dog people should have in their particular domestic circumstances. The trend now for many people to go for bull breeds is worrying. Thinking back 30 years, people on estates such as Hag Fold, where Jade and I lived, would have walked around with a Heinz 57, which is a mongrel; now people choose big, powerful dogs that need a lot of exercise, which they will not necessarily get in their environment, and a lot of care, and they are not necessarily safe around children. I am not castigating all the bull breeds—I am not castigating Staffordshire bull terriers or anything else—because we know that some of those dogs are well socialised, well trained, well cared for and well controlled, but I am worried by the proliferation of such big breeds in areas where they are not suitable.

Blue Cross and other animal charities offer good training to school children at both primary and secondary level to teach them how to be around dogs, how to behave around dogs and how to understand the signs that dogs give out so that they know whether it is, “Yes, you can come and stroke me,” or “No, please stay away.” We need children to understand how dogs behave and the signals that they give. The training also teaches children how to care for their pets, particularly dogs, and how to train and look after them. Again, part of the problem with dangerous dogs is the way those dogs are treated, whether accidentally because people just do not know enough or, as I said in my earlier intervention, because people deliberately train dogs to be vicious and aggressive.

We need adequate enforcement, even of the current legislation. Michael Anderson, Jade’s dad, did a bit of research and found that there are just two dog wardens for the whole of Wigan, which is a large borough where more than 300,000 people live. Goodness knows how many dogs live in our community, so having two dog wardens feels inadequate. We somehow need to provide adequate resourcing.

Michael Anderson talks of dog attacks being of epidemic proportions, and I agree. With so many dog attacks each year, we need concerted, dedicated action to address them. We need to promote responsible ownership and early intervention measures. When I was out with my petition, many people said that it was not dangerous dogs but dangerous owners that were the problem. Our focus needs to be very much on ensuring that people treat dogs properly; it is very much about dog welfare.

I hope the Minister will consider not only the Bill that is going through the House, and how it might be amended, but further action on the whole issue of dog control and welfare. Even if we get the amendments to the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill that we want, they will still not go far enough in addressing dog control and welfare. I hope he will say something positive about what DEFRA will do to bring all that legislation together.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)]

Order. There are about 15 minutes per person remaining.

14:15

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. I will try to ensure that my contribution is less than 15 minutes.

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling). I sympathise with her constituents who have lost their lives, as I think we all do. I also agree with her about the need for education in our schools. It is not only the children who may not have pets in their homes who need education; children in homes where, unfortunately, animals are being treated cruelly also need to be shown the right way to rear and look after animals. There is a lot that can be done in our schools, so I welcome the hon. Lady’s comments.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), the Chair of the Select Committee, for bringing this opportune debate to the Chamber. We on the Select Committee have done a lot of work on the matter, and it is good to have both the Minister and the shadow Minister here this afternoon.

I welcome the microchipping proposal because it means all dogs will be microchipped; it will also help people whose dogs have strayed. Of course, microchipping will only be as good as the database that is put in place. If people go to Blue Cross or Battersea Dogs Home, they will find that of the dogs that come in with microchips, which is probably only 30% or 40% of the total, only 30%—10% or 15% of the total—can be traced back to their owners; the microchips are often not up to date. I am sure the Government will bear that in mind.

We must ensure that the original owner is responsible for the microchip and, if they sell the dog, for ensuring that the microchip is up to date so that the dog can be properly traced. People who sell their car have to ensure that they know exactly where the car is going because otherwise if someone is later done for speeding, the original owner will receive a notice through the post stating that they were driving the car when they were not. I suggest, therefore, that if the previous owner of a dog receives a fine or a summons to court, they are responsible for it. That would concentrate people’s minds. People who sell their dog would then ensure that they knew where the dog was going.

We have talked this afternoon about the need to be careful that, as with dog licences, microchips are not just for the law abiding, which is an issue I have raised before. The last thing someone who is breeding a dog to be dangerous or to be a weapon wants is for that dog to be traced back to them. There are people out there who will wilfully ensure, as far as practicable, that their dog is not microchipped, or if the dog is microchipped, that it is not linked with them. That is fundamental.

When police and council dog wardens come across people who are, say, beating their dogs in the park to train them to be vicious, that is the moment to take in and microchip the dogs, and probably take them away from their owner. At the very least, the dogs should be linked with the owner so that the owner can be held responsible for what the dog does thereafter. Again, I agree with the hon. Member for Bolton West that it is not necessarily the dog that is at fault; it is about the owner who has trained the dog to be vicious. We have to be absolutely clear about that.

That brings me neatly to my next point. It is right that we extend the legislation to deal with people who have in their home dangerous dogs that bite postmen or social workers. In doing so, however, we must be aware that if the dog is protecting the property and someone goes in to trespass or burgle, the dog will take some sort of action against that person. In that case, I do not see why any individual should be prosecuted as a result. That will be the difficult balance in the legislation. Often, when postmen or social workers going into people’s houses are bitten, it is not the first time it has happened. The dogs are sometimes well known for being vicious, and we need to take action on those types of dogs and owners. That is absolutely clear.

Furthermore, while breed-specific legislation is okay up to a point, we now have people bringing dogs into the country and breeding them to be dangerous, so we have to be clear that our concern is the action of the dog and not necessarily the breed of the dog. Leaving the breed-specific legislation as it is does not help when dogs from all over the world are being brought in to breed a more vicious breed of dog. People who do that are outside the law and they do not want to be found; we need to make sure of them, so that we can pin their dogs back to the individual.

[Julie Hilling]

Local authorities spend about £57 million a year on kennelling costs, when dogs are thought to be or might be of a dangerous breed, but with two effects. First, kennelling costs a great deal of money and, secondly, the dog suffers more trauma when kept in kennels while we work out what we should do with the animal. I absolutely agree that it is deed, not breed, that is more important.

[Neil Parish]

The Blue Cross hospital here in London might have dogs of a breed that is considered vicious, yet an individual dog need not be vicious. Once such a dog is taken into care, there is a death warrant on it, irrespective of whether the dog deserves it. We could go round such conundrums all day, but we should rehouse dogs if possible. Sometimes dogs are taken into care just because people cannot cope with them—they are not training the dogs to be vicious; they simply cannot cope with them any longer. Dogs of a good temperament, but of a breed that might be considered more dangerous, are often the ones that have to be put down, and I do not agree with that.

Moving beyond dangerous dogs as such, an issue at the top end of dog breeding is that many are bred to be too pure. Pugs might be bred so they cannot breathe properly, because that is how masters and breed judges see the case; Alsatians are bred with bad hips, because sometimes that is how the pedigree breeders think that breed should be. Linking with the microchip measures and, clearly, back to the breeding, therefore, the Government need to be absolutely certain that dogs are bred to be not only pure, as in that instance, but healthy. That might be going beyond the subject of today’s debate, but the Kennel Club and others are working hard on the issue, and we need to do more. If some pedigree dogs are being bred from a gene pool that is too small, we need to introduce other breeds to ensure a proper gene pool so that they can breed properly—so that they have good hips, for example.

On puppy farming, it is right that for more than two litters the farms or breeders should be registered. DEFRA is working on that; people need to be clear where dogs come from—through puppy contracts, such as those used by the British Veterinary Association—what the dog’s parentage is and where its mother is. If possible, people should see the puppy with the mother, so that they know exactly what they are buying; they should not buy something advertised over the internet or out of the back of a white van, because they have no link to the mother. Such puppies could have been taken from their mother far too young and they could be traumatised and may also be suffering from many diseases. When something happens to a puppy because it has many illnesses, the children of the family it was brought into might be traumatised as well. Again, proper linking to the original breeder through the puppy’s microchip will make all the difference, because people will find it much more difficult to bring puppies in and pass them off as bred somewhere else, which is often the case.

This afternoon, we have a huge wish list, yet as all of us recognise, Ministers and shadow Ministers included, we can make as many laws as we like, but we also have to enforce them. The laws have to be enforceable, and that is what we are keen to see. Resources in councils and the Government are limited at the moment, so we need to concentrate on getting the system—the microchipping —right, with a link to the owner so that the police or dog wardens can take action quickly and effectively. Ensuring that we do not have to kennel dogs for so long will also reduce costs. A lot of good can be done through the Bill.

I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton: the vast majority of dog owners in this country are good and responsible. We must ensure that we go after those who are not. We must also act against dogs that attack not only people but a dog guiding a blind person—that has to be just as bad as an attack on a person. It is terrifying enough to have a dog of one’s own attacked by another dog, but imagine people walking down a road unable even to see the other dog approaching before it attacks their guide dog. That must be absolutely terrifying, and all those things should be taken into consideration.

Finally, if horrendous crimes have been committed by dogs, and if the owners have trained the dogs to carry out such acts, we must ensure that the book is thrown at those people, and that they receive sentences commensurate with their crime. Sometimes, of course, a dog that is not normally dangerous goes out of control, and that has to be looked at slightly more leniently. The situation now is that we must take action against those who are out to perpetrate crime. Once again, I thank my hon. Friend for the debate, and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

14:28

[George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak, Mr Turner, and I am sorry that I was a few minutes late.

I was keen for the Select Committee to look at this issue, because there has been a sharp increase in the number of problems associated with so-called status dogs. The number of people hospitalised as a result of dog attacks has doubled—it went from around 3,000 as recently as 1997 to well in excess of 6,000 in 2010. That is a real problem, and I welcome many of the measures that the Government have introduced to date, all of which have been referred to already.

The decision to have compulsory microchipping and the strengthening of that proposal have been important, and I welcome the decision to make an attack on an assistance dog an aggravated offence—I agree that that is an important step forward. It is also right to make a dog attack on someone an offence, whether on private or public property.

My only concern is the possible final unintended consequences of such legislation, which we need to think about. I hope that the courts will have wide discretion to take into account individual cases. For example, a couple of border collies could be working dogs on a remote farm, running loose most of the day, but they might nip someone who is not trespassing and who might even be delivering a political leaflet. The implication of that becoming a dreadful offence might be that dogs would have to be locked up all day because someone canvassing for a political party might come round once every couple of years. We must be careful and give some discretion to the courts.

I want to focus most of my comments on dog breeders. My one concern about community protection notices is that there is too much emphasis on irresponsible behaviour by dog owners and the dog is treated as though it were an accessory to antisocial behaviour and crime in the same way as a knife or baseball bat might be.

As the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) said and as I have stressed, the issue is not as simple as that. So much about how a dog behaves and whether it is unpredictable and likely to bite someone depends on whether it was socialised in the first few months when it was a puppy and whether it was cared for properly. If it was brutalised in those first few months, it will never be right, however responsible the current owner might be.

The evidence from dog charities, such as Battersea Dogs Home, was very clear. Many of the dogs they receive were bought as puppies from a disreputable breeder who did not raise them properly. It might be a mastiff, and a year down the line the buyer finds that they have a huge dog that they cannot control. They do not know what to do with it so they abandon it and leave it on the streets.

Many dogs that go to charities have been abandoned by people who bought puppies from disreputable breeders and then did not know what to do with them, so abandoned them. That is a real problem; so many of those dogs end up being destroyed because their experience as puppies means that they are completely unsuitable to be rehomed with families.

As hon. Members have said, we recommended that one way of dealing with the problem was to change legislation so that the maximum number of litters that a hobby breeder could breed before having to be licensed with a local authority was reduced from five a year to two. The Government rejected that, and I want to press the Minister on the current position. Our understanding was that a hobby breeder could breed up to five litters a year. That is a lot of dogs; an irresponsible hobby breeder could send 50 dogs into the outside world and cause problems.

In their response, the Government thanked the Committee

“for the opportunity to clarify the legislation on dog breeding”

and said:

“The Government would like to stress that anyone in the business of selling dogs, which is anyone that a local authority justly believes to be trading must be licensed”

and that is the case whether it is five litters or even one litter. I am interested in what the phrase

“in the business of selling dogs”

means. Does it mean anyone who sells a dog? Does it mean that if someone breeds one litter of puppies and gives five away to friends but sells three, they would have to register because they had sold a dog? Does it mean someone who earns their full-time income in that way, or a part-time income, and is there an income threshold? Does it mean that someone receiving more than £500 from puppy sales must be licensed, but not if they receive less than that? The figure is vague and I would like to know what the phrase means. If there was clarity and someone breeding fewer than two litters would be a hobby breeder and exempt, but those breeding more than two litters would automatically be caught, that would remove the vagueness. That is important, and I would welcome the Minister’s comments.

After the publication of the report, I met some dog wardens who raised various issues with me. They said that the most important one was that doing what I suggested and reducing the threshold from five to two litters would be for the birds because they did not have the resources or powers to carry out the necessary surveillance to pick up such breeders. When I pressed them on how much such work they do, the answer was, “Not a great deal.” We must not delude ourselves into thinking that this simple tweak in the legislation would solve the problem.

Those wardens said that one obstacle to their looking into such problems is the difficulty, bureaucracy and complexity of obtaining the relevant authorisation from the right authorities to carry out surveillance on people they suspect of running illegal puppy farms. They said that what usually happens is that the police or a local authority decide to conduct surveillance on a household for some other reason—suspected cannabis growing, selling of drugs or dealing illegally in something else—and only incidentally do they find out that dogs are being illegally bred and sold, and that there is a business in dogs that is not properly licensed.

An interesting area that we did not look at in our last inquiry, and which I hope the Government will take on board, is whether more should be done to ensure that local authorities have the necessary powers to hand to obtain such authorisation, so that they can carry out surveillance and catch people engaged in back-street puppy farms, which are causing so many problems, as other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Bolton West, made so clear.

14:35

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

I am grateful that I have caught your eye, Mr Turner. Dogs’ hackles are up and their hair is on end. I welcome my hon. Friend the Minister to the Chamber to respond to the debate, and I hope that he will be able to calm some of the nerves that I will allude to. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) on this timely and important report. Her Committee has done dog welfare a great service.

I have taken a strong interest in the welfare of dogs for a number of years, and have been involved in a campaign with my constituent, Carol Fowler, for the past eight. Highlights of the campaign led to the BBC1 documentary, “Pedigree Dogs Exposed”, which I am sure many hon. Members saw. It graphically exposed welfare issues associated with pedigree dogs and genetic health.

There are some horrific examples—particularly Chiari malformation and syringomyelia in Cavalier King Charles spaniels; as you may know, Mr Turner, the brain grows too large for the size of the skull, causing some sufferers to writhe around in agony before they die. There are many other examples, including boxer dogs having heart diseases and German Shepherds having abnormal hip joint development, causing them to die prematurely. The programme led to the BBC suspending its broadcasting of Crufts, which, given its 42-year history with the broadcaster, was highly symbolic.

I want to touch on four of the issues that several hon. Members have raised. First, we must tackle the horrific business of inherited genetic disease through improper breeding, which can seriously compromise dogs’ welfare. Secondly, we need a proper microchipping process for dogs. Thirdly, I want to talk about puppy farms and fourthly about puppy contracts.

Welfare problems caused by those who buy problem dogs are extensive both financially and emotionally. Such puppies often die prematurely and their owners have to face the associated costs, including vets’ fees, and the emotional trauma that goes with that. I will concentrate on dog welfare today. We should remember that dogs are sentient beings who can feel both pain and fear.

The Government must not wash their hands of all aspects of dog breeding, particularly when welfare problems are involved, and they could use a light regulatory touch with a sector of welfare groups operating properly through the Animal Health and Welfare Board for England. There must be responsible dog-breeding regulation so that puppies are sold to suitable owners and socialised properly, which would alleviate many of the dog control problems to which hon. Members have alluded.

I turn first to the lack of funding. The Animal Health and Welfare Board for England is, rightly, weighted towards farm animals and received £200,000 from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. The Farm Animal Welfare Council received £280,000. In contrast, the Dog Advisory Council, which is so ably chaired by Professor Sheila Crispin, had to make do with a mere shoestring budget of £28,000 last year. It tried to approach the pet food industry for more funding, but that has so far failed. The Dog Advisory Council has been widely acknowledged as providing the most independent, far-reaching welfare advice of any of the dog organisations.

That brings me to the second, perhaps most important part of my speech, and the issue that is causing so much unhappiness; I hope that the Minister pays close attention. It seems that a new canine and feline sector group has been established, with a surprising lack of consultation anywhere. If there is to be a new organisation, it should be fully independent from any sectoral interests. Only with an independent group will the correct provisions be put in place to protect the welfare of dogs in the UK.

I also question the establishment of the group. I do not understand why it was set up, what the process for the recruitment of its members was, or how the group is to be funded, and I would be grateful if the Minister clarified those issues. Was the group and its membership established under the Nolan principles?

I understand that the new group will be under the chairmanship of Professor Steve Dean. I have met him, and he is extremely knowledgeable about dogs—the problem is that he happens to be chairman of the Kennel Club. It would appear that a cosy relationship has formed between the Kennel Club and DEFRA, which, as I said in a letter to the noble Lord de Mauley, is seriously dividing opinion-formers in the dog world, and compromising, I believe, the welfare of dogs. The creation of the new group and the choice of chairman have created hostility in the dog world. Any chairman of a dog welfare board, I suggest to the Minister, should be able to unite, not divide, that world.

The position of the Kennel Club as a regulatory body seems to have been elevated recently, following a speech from Professor Steve Dean, in which he said that the Kennel Club had the

“primary role as the regulator for the welfare of dogs”,

and had worked with DEFRA to form the canine and feline sector group, under his chairmanship.

There is a fundamental conflict of interest in the Kennel Club’s taking a leading role in the welfare of dogs, as its main source of income comes from the fees that it charges for the registering and transfer of ownership of puppies. Therefore, it is not in the Kennel Club’s interest to restrict the number of organisations by imposing tougher health requirements. Given that conflict of interest, I do not believe that the Kennel Club is the best organisation to be given responsibility for the regulation of dog welfare.

The establishment of any group should at least have had involvement from the Dog Advisory Council, which provides expert independent advice on how best to advance the welfare of dogs. It would have been far more beneficial to build on the Dog Advisory Council’s work, rather than to establish this entirely new group under the Kennel Club’s chairman. The advice given by the Dog Advisory Council is truly independent and widely respected by all dog groups.

If we are to work within the current structures, they must be rigorously independent and have the Dog Advisory Council at their heart. I believe that the Dog Advisory Council should remain in place until such time as a suitable structure is formed that can guarantee the independence and regulation of dog welfare. Following that, a dedicated dog subsection should remain in any canine and feline group, due to the population of dogs and the problems that we have heard about in today’s debate. There are, I believe—nobody quite knows the exact figure—about 11 million dogs and about 11 million cats in this country, but it seems that there are far more problems with dogs than with cats.

Moving on quickly, Mr Turner—I know that you will want me to conclude shortly—I would like to talk about microchipping. I know through a constituent of mine, who is actively involved in the matter, that we are being pressed to do something urgently about microchipping in horses, to deal with horse diseases and the issue of traceability, including dog meat. The technology required for the chipping of dogs and horses is exactly the same. Surely we can accelerate the microchipping process, so that it is dealt with faster than by 2016, as is currently proposed.

Briefly, the third issue is so-called puppy farms, which others have discussed. I quickly comment that the problem is that the farms often produce puppies in environments with inadequate welfare conditions and inadequate genetic disease control. Puppies are often poorly nourished and not properly socialised, so that is an issue that we need to tackle.

The fourth issue, which my constituent, Carol Fowler, was at the forefront of proposing, is puppy contracts. It is important that members of the general public have access to an effective public education campaign about genetic welfare issues. The poor welfare standards of many commercial breeding establishments and dealers mean that many innocent puppy buyers will still purchase a puppy on emotional grounds rather than as informed consumers. Choice of breed can often be based on appearance or even fashion, with little regard to potentially harmful conformational traits or known breed-related genetic diseases, let alone whether a particular breed of dog is suitable for their lifestyle, or whether they should have a dog at all.

The current, unregulated system is failing to protect dogs from suffering from the effects of inbreeding, genetic diseases, exaggerated conformational traits, poor husbandry and the poor welfare that can be associated with the breeding of dogs. The majority of purebred dogs are owned by the general public, who often pay a very high financial and emotional price in dealing with such problems.

The UK claims to be a nation of animal lovers and, on the whole, I am sure that that is true. However, there will be a falsity behind that claim if we do not ensure the highest welfare standards possible. The UK’s standard of welfare of companion animals often falls below that of Switzerland, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, the Netherlands, and possibly other European countries as well.

In summary, I believe that the case for an independent regulator for the welfare of dogs is clear. A clear distinction has to be made between a sectoral council, which represents the interests of the industry concerned, and an independent regulator, which will act on behalf of the welfare interests of animals. With the creation of the new canine and feline body, it very much feels as though the poachers are regulating the gamekeepers.

A truly independent body, with statutory powers, would have the capability to ensure both the protection of dog welfare and that dog breeding was carried out to the highest possible standards. Having those safeguards in place would, in turn, alleviate many of the dog control issues that we have discussed today, including that of dangerous dogs. I hope that the Minister will comment on those important welfare issues.

14:47

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I am delighted that we are able to debate this important issue in response to the seventh report of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, on dog control and welfare. I welcome the report, which was exhaustive in the evidence it took and in its comprehensive insights on dog control and welfare.

The point has been well made that one difficulty we are experiencing, both in this debate and in governmental terms, is about who champions the matter in Government. A forthcoming Home Office Bill deals with one aspect, while other aspects, such as sentencing, are dealt with elsewhere. In his response, the Minister—good chap that he is—might want to identify the individual who champions the whole remit. In the absence of a holistic reform of dog welfare and controls, and given that we are dealing with it in a more piecemeal way, who champions the issue right across Whitehall? Who bangs heads together? Who chairs the committees in Government? Who drags the Home Office and others together and says, “This is the way it is all going to hang together.”? I think that role is vital, and it would be good to have information from the Minister.

I welcome the debate and thank the Committee members and its Chair, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), for their truly excellent work on this report and others that relate to such issues. It is right to recognise, as hon. Members have done, the intense suffering of many families who have been traumatised, not only through injuries, but through deaths in their families because of attacks by dogs. That includes most recently Jade Anderson, John Paul Massey four years ago and the 79-year-old pensioner, Clifford Clarke. It is true that they and others personify the tragedy of dog attacks, which has been so ably and eloquently set out here today by my hon. Friends the Members for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) and for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) and by other hon. Members, and in other debates. That gives us the stimulus we need; it is why we need to get this right.

I give immense credit to all the dog and animal welfare charities, the police, the Royal College of Nursing, other health care professionals, veterinarians, postal workers, represented by the Communication Workers Union, and many assorted others who have come together to campaign with immense unanimity and sense of purpose on the issue. I remember at one point a Minister—I am not sure whether it was this Minister, but certainly it was a predecessor—saying to me, “One of the difficulties is that there isn’t a unified voice.”

Well, there has been one for some time, and the people concerned are still pretty unified in demanding what they want; I shall refer to some of the details in a moment. They have played an excellent hand, and for the right reasons. That has to do with the issues that have been mentioned by all hon. Members here today, including the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), who has great experience in this area. Those issues include animal welfare and breeding, as well as dog attacks and responsible ownership and what we can do in that respect.

On a personal level, I thank not only the CWU and Dave Joyce, but Mark, a postal worker from Pencoed, who took me out on his rounds delivering letters in my local patch and talked to me about this and other matters. I also thank Tina, who took me around Euston blindfolded with a guide dog. She took me through Euston and across the front of the station, through busy areas, to show me not only the expertise of guide dogs, the immense amount of training that they receive and how easily it can be lost if they are attacked by other animals or scared in other ways, but the real bond of trust that develops and how that trust can be so easily broken by an inadvertent or a deliberate attack on a precious companion animal or guide dog. Jonathan, a black lab, took me round the course, with Tina instructing me as we went. Jonathan was a black lab—not black lab as in Labour, but as in Labrador, although he could have been Labour. I do not know; he did not tell me at the time.

I also thank Blue Cross, the RSPCA, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home and others for the time they have spent with me on frequent visits to their institutions to see their work and how a multifaceted approach is needed to dealing with abandonment, stray dogs and breeding; I will come to some of the detail in a moment. On that basis, one message I have for the Minister, or one thing that I would like him to ask today and when his colleagues go into Committee with the Home Office Bill is, why not consolidation? I suspect that his civil servants, good people as they are, will have said, “There is a more pragmatic way to do this. Let’s do a little bit here and a little bit there and so on.” But there are real concerns about that.

It comes down to this point: how do we pull together a very comprehensive range of issues? They are not simply about sanctions, penalties and stepping in after the event. They are about education, early intervention, stepping in at an early stage when we see that there are problems to prevent them from getting worse, and dealing with what is now in some ways the factory turnover of dogs, and other animals, through the internet and elsewhere. How is that to be dealt with if we do not pull things together in a consolidated Bill? We come back to these points. First, who is championing the issue, and secondly, where is the overall strategy? We have little bits here and there. Many of those things I will welcome in my contribution, but other things could easily be lost. We have to do this properly.

One of the biggest lessons for us on the issue comes from what we did with the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. That was a classic case of well intentioned legislation that had perverse consequences, which is why we need to get it right this time. The DDA was poorly targeted, which has led to good dogs being seized from good owners and all the personal trauma and inconvenience that go with that. We see dangerous individual dogs that are not from the four proscribed breeds and thus cannot be seized under the Act.

There is confusion. Veterinarians regularly tell us, “We find it hard enough ourselves to identify whether that dog is from one of the four proscribed breeds, but we know that that one needs to be lifted up, taken away and either retrained or kennelled for some time and re-homed with someone who will look after it.” Alternatively, they say, “We think that dog is dangerous, but we can’t actually get to it to lift it.”

The DDA was a classic piece of well intentioned but not well designed legislation. To get the legislation right this time, I urge the Minister, including in discussion with Home Office colleagues and others, really to think about it, because we may not have another good opportunity for a while to get the detail right and to work on the measure with very experienced organisations outside the House, with the EFRA Committee and its members, who have a great deal of knowledge, and with other hon. Members. Working with those people means occasionally giving way and acknowledging that some points that are well and democratically made from the Floor of the House may trump what the Minister is being told by his very able and expert civil servants.

[Mr Graham Brady in the Chair]

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this is precisely the type of issue that needs to be widely consulted on, and that it is much better if there is broad consensus, just as it is much better if there is broad consensus on how the whole dog issue is to be regulated?

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Very much so. The hon. Gentleman made that point well in terms of the organisational structure that is now giving input to Government and advising them. He is also right in terms of parliamentary consensus and outside organisations. There has been a fair degree of consensus on the holistic way to take this forward. Blue Cross is not the only organisation that is very strong on education and early intervention; so are many others. There is a degree of consensus on the issue, so the hon. Gentleman is right to urge me, as the Opposition Front Bencher, and the coalition Government to work together and to continue it. That might mean a bit of give and take on some things.

There are many points on which we agree with the Government. I have made it clear to the Minister and his colleagues in the other place that we want to provide support and ensure that the legislation goes through in the right shape. However, on the broad principles, in the long term we have to focus on deed, not breed, and replace crude lists of proscribed breeds with a much more holistic approach.

As to the medium term, we are with the Government, and the police, in their argument that we cannot scrap the DDA, despite my criticisms of it—because it is fundamentally flawed—without looking much more at causes than symptoms, without that holistic approach. For the moment, we have to focus on both deed and breed. We will have to do that until we get the whole package in place. In many ways, I regret saying that. I would like to say that we can turn a switch and do it now, but we are in a process. If we can get it right, we will get to the idea of focusing on individual owners and individual dogs, rather than castigating whole breeds or castigating pet owners or dog owners generally, but we are not quite there yet.

An overhaul of our approach is long overdue. We cannot yet discard one of the few tools that we have in the DDA, crude as it is, but I have to say to the Minister that it is more a blunderbuss than a rifle; it is more a cutlass than a rapier. Innocent owners and innocent dogs get caught up in it as well, which is a matter for regret.

On that basis, great care should be taken in extending the range of the DDA. This is one area where we are concerned about the line that the EFRA Committee has taken, because I understand that it suggested that we might extend it and add to it. I have some concerns about that, because we would be reinforcing the use of the blunderbuss approach. With all the concerns of veterinarians about identifying the right breeds and the development of mongrel mixes—huskies with other dogs and even wolf hybrids and so on—I wonder whether extending the DDA is the right approach. We should be ensuring that we get the mix right: we should be looking at the individual dog, looking at the individual owner and getting the packages in place to intervene very early before the dogs attack and we have to lift them. I am sure we will explore that in the Committee.

[Miss McIntosh]

To put the hon. Gentleman’s mind at rest, I can tell him that when we looked at the issue in our second bite of the cherry, we focused much more, as I and hon. Members have said this afternoon, on the deed rather than the breed, for the simple reason that people can breed round a particular breed, so we would only be creating another loophole.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I welcome that intervention, and the fact that the Committee’s thinking has evolved based on more evidence. That is the right approach. We should explore such things to get the right evidence-based policy outcomes.

I want to spend a little time on the detail in dog control notices. The other day, I pointed out on the Floor of the House that we are not convinced by the Government’s explanations why dog control notices are not necessary and will not work. I will go through some of the reasons. Neither the Secretary of State for the Home Department nor her Minister could respond in detail to some of my questions, but my point was that they need a pretty compelling case why the Government’s approach is better than the one everybody else has lined up behind—all the organisations I spoke about. Everybody is arguing against it on the basis of not only what the Scottish Government have done, but the other examples of similar animal welfare measures that are used effectively in England already, and to which I alluded in the debate the other day.

We will have to test the measure to the point of destruction in Committee and test the Government on why they are sticking with it. We will try to persuade the Government of the arguments and persuade them to go further, and I shall explain why. We are far from being convinced that the Government’s proposals based around community protection notices and public space protection orders will deal with the individual circumstances of problem dogs and problem owners, rather than tackling all dogs and all owners in an area, district or region and so on, or that the proposals can be individualised to allow for early intervention.

We need to see that the proposals can be personalised and individualised, including aspects such as an individual dog needing to be muzzled in certain circumstances, a fence around a garden being maintained to an adequate condition, an owner being sent on a training course, a dog being neutered or restrictions placed on off-lead activity. We will be testing all those things.

We also need to see that the response before there is an attack and public safety is compromised is flexible and proportionate, so that the proposal does what all the organisations have been asking for: protects public safety and the dog’s welfare, rather than steps in afterwards. We are trying to get at the owners who are repeatedly termed “irresponsible”, which could be for a number of reasons, such as ignorance, lack of awareness or general malicious intent. We need to go towards them and their dogs, rather than having a blunderbuss approach.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)]

indicated assent.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

The Minister is nodding, so I know he is going to say a lot of good things in his response.

Are CPNs and the PSPOs—sorry for the jargon—a version of what has been termed a “DOGBO” for problem dogs and owners? If so—the shadow Home Office team will also ask Ministers about that in Committee—given the scale of the challenge and problem identified by the EFRA Committee and other hon. Members, what assurances do we have that such measures will be prioritised among the plethora of other powers in the Bill? An individual police chief constable, or his officers on the ground, must decide with the local authority and other community safety partners that dogs, among all the other challenges, are the pressing priority on an estate or in an area where there is a problem. Without a focus on dog control notices, the worry is that the issue will not be a priority and will become mixed up in the whole.

[Mr Heath]

indicated dissent.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I see the Minister shaking his head and I know that he will come back on that issue. I am glad to see him suggest that that will not be a problem. He will explain today why that is the case.

Will there be adequate resources? I asked on the Floor of the House whether the problem with the dog control notice is that it instantly sends shockwaves through Whitehall and down to local government that resources must follow. If that is the case, let us be honest about it. If that is the problem, which it is, and if we agree on the scale of the challenge and the need to turn things round, which we do, let us have a frank discussion about how we resource this. We have rising dog attacks, injuries and fatalities; rising kennelling costs for local authorities and the police; and more people washing up in A and E units and costing the NHS money. The proposal has to be resourced; otherwise, we can pass all the legislation and regulation and employ all the nudge factors or whatever in the world, but we will not have an effect on the ground, as the hon. Member for The Cotswolds pointed out.

In the absence of dog control notices, how will the Minister ensure that the measures he proposes, among the plethora of measures in the Home Office Bill, will be adequately understood, not only by the police and community safety agencies, which are expected to enforce them, but by the public, who will come to our constituency offices and say, “We know of a problem,” or by a postal worker who says to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West, “We’ve identified a dog; I don’t know what to do about it.”? Will it be properly explained and understood, so that they can use the mechanisms at hand?

Are the measures too bureaucratic? One great advantage of a flexible early intervention approach is that we can get in early, without having to go back to a magistrates court or get another type of permission that requires 20 forms to be filled out. There can be early, gentle, soft, clever interventions, such as saying to an owner, “He hasn’t done anything yet, but there is a problem. You’ve had a visit from the RSPCA and the local health worker. They have both said that there is a problem. When you have visitors in your property, will you please muzzle that dog. What you do otherwise is up to you.” Will it be that sort of approach, or will a massive bureaucracy have to be gone through to take any action under the proposal?

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again, but I believe that we have time to debate these matters, which is a good thing. Does he agree that, if at all possible, such issues should be framed in legislation to keep people out of court but to have the desired result? A system of police warning, followed by a ticket with a substantial fine, if breached, would be one way of doing that.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be on the Committee—I will not be—because I think that is an intelligent observation. If he is not on the Committee, he ought to ensure that that point is raised at that stage. The idea of proportionate intervention may avoid the heavy-handed, further-down-stream measures, if we can get in early with a lighter touch. We also do not want to take unduly disproportionate measures against individuals who might be identified by a neighbour who says, “I’ve had enough of this one. I’ll go in and sort it out.” There must be some evidential test and measure to say whether there is an issue that we need to deal with. I agree entirely with what he said, both in terms of sanctions and the types of measure that could be deployed. We need flexibility, before we lift a dog or take stronger, more punitive action against an owner. In that way, we hope to reduce the number of attacks, rather than wait for them to happen and then take punitive action.

I asked in an intervention when the guidance will be issued. The proposals have been quite a while in fruition in the Home Office, and DEFRA Ministers have been involved as well. I am absolutely convinced that some form of draft guidance is being worked up in DEFRA, the Home Office or both combined, and that that can be presented at the earliest opportunity. For the benefit of taking the measures through and getting them right, the guidance needs to be presented in Committee, not on Report. If the Minister says that he cannot do it, I can tell him that I regularly did it as a Minister. I have been told by a Committee, “We need this next Monday,” and I have had to do it and tell my civil servants, “Do it.” I do not mind how rough and ready it is; we need it to be done.

I hope that the Minister and his expert team of civil servants will be able to provide that guidance so that the Committee can take the provisions apart. If he has difficulty with that, the Committee should, even in the absence of dog control notices, simply lift the current Scottish Executive guidance off the shelf and say, “How do we apply this to the Government’s proposals?” If the DEFRA measures are similar to those in Scotland, and they are going to do the same job, the Scottish Executive guidance should perhaps be the basis for the guidance DEFRA introduces.

I have one final, important point on DCNs. We need to know what protections and appeals mechanisms will be in place for owners. We need to get the balance right to protect good owners and good dogs. What protections will be there for them?

In short, we are not convinced that the Government have got this issue right or that their opposition to dog control notices is well founded. The Committee must urgently be given draft guidance so that we can test not only the Minister’s words and aspirations, but their tangible expression in black and white.

Let me turn briefly to a couple of other issues. We welcome the proposals to extend to private property the ability to prosecute somebody for an attack by a dog. We also welcome the fact that the Government have listened on the issue of trespass, but we will need to test in Committee what trespass entails, and that will include the issue of a property’s curtilage. Sheep dogs or other dogs belonging to farmers, but not just farmers, will often be free to roam in outbuildings. Such buildings are private property, and the dogs will be there for good reasons—often for animal husbandry reasons, because they are working dogs, not pets. We need to test how that will work, because we need to get it right.

In another expert contribution, the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) mentioned attacks on innocent political canvassers, although I am not sure there is such a thing. He made a very good contribution, and I hope he is also on the Committee. I will be down in his patch at the weekend, although not on an official visit; I am taking my son down to visit Exeter university’s Camborne campus, which is a fantastic mining, engineering and geology campus. I hope the weather there is good at the weekend.

Attacks on livestock and protected animals are another issue on which we agree with the EFRA Committee, and we need to look at it. Again, this is partly about taking a holistic approach. How do we pull things together so that not only guide dogs, assistance dogs and companion dogs, but a wide variety of other animals, are protected? Such animals are quite easily defined under the protected animal provisions of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. That may be the approach the Government want to look at, or there may be some other way. We certainly do not want to create a new list of animals—“We’ll have llamas, but not alpacas,” and so on. There is a ready-made opportunity under the Act to deal with the issue.

Several Members have mentioned the breeding and sale of dogs, and they are absolutely correct that we have far too many poor breeders. The EFRA Committee is correct that the threshold for licensing dog breeders needs reviewing, and I hope that will be part of the Government’s overall approach. Good dog breeding is to be welcomed, and good prospective owners welcome the fact that a dog has been reared and looked after well and that it has had all the medical treatment and some of the early elements of training, if appropriate, before they take it. However, through ignorance or sheer greed, far too many individuals out there are breeding to no good standard or to no standard whatever. Unfortunately, much of that spills out on to the internet. It amazes me—perhaps it should not—that there is now a trade in all sorts of animals on the internet. We have to accept that.

That takes me to my next point, on which the EFRA Committee also made some wise recommendations. We need to look at how we promote good, responsible advertising for animals on the internet, and the Government are doing some good work on that. We accept that there will be some advertising on the internet, but how do we stamp out the practices of those who are churning out dogs and other animals that will end up abandoned and wasted? Those dogs will wash up in kennelling, with all the costs that go with that, or in places such as Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, or they will be euthanased. That is an absolute tragedy.

I have touched on breed-specific legislation. I want now to touch on education, because we often miss this aspect. Many charitable organisations are doing great work on education, including in areas that commentators will stereotype, saying things such as, “The problem is on that working-class estate down the road.” Such views are not always true; there are plenty of problems with poor ownership and poor welfare conditions across all social groups. Organisations such as Blue Cross and the RSPCA are going into areas where they perceive there is a problem. They use the generous funding people have given them to do educational work. I would like to hear from the Minister how the Government tie that together. How do they assist and encourage that work? What do they add to it? If we are seriously going to tackle this wide-ranging issue, the Bill cannot simply be a Home Office matter—it must cover the other elements I have mentioned.

That comes back to my point about the Minister standing up and saying, “I am the one who is championing this through the whole of Government. I am the one who is banging heads together.” I strongly support the idea that a DEFRA Minister should be doing that, and I hope the Minister can do it. If he does not, I will be more than happy to speak to his colleagues, to bang their heads together and to say, “You should listen to the Minister as he brings forward a more holistic approach.”

There are some great initiatives out there, including Respect-A-Bull, which works with youngsters who go around with what they think are tough-looking dogs. The organisation promotes a responsible approach to dogs welfare and to taking out in public. There is some great work going on there.

I commend the Government on their microchipping proposals, although I repeat my criticism, which the Minister hates, that we have waited some time for them. However, they are there. I also commend the Government on the fact that they have gone further than we anticipated, which is welcome. They are not simply rolling things out stage by stage; they are saying that, on a certain date, we will have only mandatory microchipping.

The Chair of the EFRA Committee wisely said, “Let’s get microchipping right. If that requires until 2016, so be it.” However, I would like the Minister to answer the question posed by other hon. Members: why could this not have happened a little earlier? Are things not in place, and are they preventing us from getting this right by 2015? Is something really holding the process up? There may be good reasons for the delay, but I would like to hear them. I agree with the Committee’s Chair that we need to get this absolutely right. It is a welcome move, but it does raise a number of points, which were mentioned earlier. What do the microchipping proposals mean for the link between the dog and the individual? What do they mean for liability, culpability and people being held to account?

I do not have a dog, although I used to have loads of Jack Russells. I have cats now—I do not know what that says about me as an individual, but there we are. I will have a dog again at some point, when I am back home and retired, and it will be a Jack Russell. They are little dogs; they are lovely, great dogs—I am appealing directly to anybody who is listening who likes Jack Russells. Owners of other kinds of dog are saying, “We hate this guy. Those aren’t proper dogs.” That aside, I like the idea that owners should microchip their dogs and take full responsibility for them. If the dog is lost or strays, the owner should pass the information on, whether to a database or whatever. If the dog washes up in Swansea dogs home, Battersea or wherever, the owner should pay for the kennelling and take the dog back. That raises some interesting issues, but I welcome the Government’s moves, and we will test the proposals.

The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) raised the issue of liability and sanctions not only for owners who do not microchip, which is a very valid point, but for those who microchip, but do not control their dog or lose control of it. The fundamental question is whether microchipping is a stick or a carrot. Is it simply part of a lost and returned service, or is it more than that? The hon. Gentleman also mentioned adequate enforcement, which was discussed by other Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West.

The hon. Member for The Cotswolds raised important issues about the bypassing of the existing Dog Advisory Council, and equitable access to DEFRA and Ministers. I hope that the Minister will respond, because although the process has been long and arduous, lasting decades, for some organisations, the great success that has now been achieved has been predicated on effective collaboration and getting people to agree. Anything that signals that priority is being given to one or other group would pull that apart, and none of us would want that. I commend the hon. Member for The Cotswolds for his long interest in issues such as breeding and hereditary health problems, and for his well known support for the work done by his constituent, Carol Fowler, to raise the profile of those issues.

I thank all hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. They have shown great expertise. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West on the passion she showed, and my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree on her interventions; she has spoken with families affected by this issue, and has provided them with access to decision makers including members of the EFRA Committee, Ministers and the shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh). It is important to listen to such families and to try to get things right for them.

Fundamentally the issue is about tackling those owners who for one reason or another do not understand about the control and welfare of their dogs—their pets or companion animals. It is also about recognising that the majority of owners are good. We need to design policy that does not unduly affect the responsible owners while leaving the others aside: that must be its thrust. We look forward to working with the Government, and thank the EFRA Committee for its continuing work, which has flushed out some of the issues. I hope that in a few months we will be able to introduce part of what is required, and that the Minister will deal with all the other aspects of the matter. Then we can genuinely and radically take the action that we should have taken at the time of the Dangerous Dogs Acts. They were flawed: let us get this one right.

15:19

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)]

We have had an excellent debate. I commend the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) on introducing it and on the work of her Committee on a crucial issue. I am also pleased to commend the Liaison Committee on choosing the subject as suitable for debate today.

Perhaps I should start by saying that there is much more that unites us on this subject than divides us. We are working to the same end, and have shared much thinking in policy formation. The hon. Lady was kind enough to point out areas where the Government have not only listened, but acted, to bring in measures that will, I hope, make a difference to the minority—I agree with the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) that it is a minority of dog owners—who, whether through ignorance, neglect, or sometimes, I am afraid, malice, end up with dogs that are a danger to others and a nuisance to the community. Such measures are what we need to achieve.

The hon. Member for Ogmore repeatedly asked me to declare myself “the one”, in a Mourinho sort of way —“the special one”—in relation to dogs. Rather shamefacedly, I must say that I am not actually “the one”: my noble Friend Lord de Mauley is. He has responsibility for those matters in the Department. However, I am happy to be “the one” as far as this House is concerned, and to respond to the debate.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will the Minister confirm that Lord de Mauley—great chap that he is—chairs some cross-Whitehall group that pulls all the strands together?

[Mr Heath]

Lord de Mauley has certainly been working closely with others, including the devolved Administrations, but particularly with the Home Office. There is a shared responsibility with the Home Office, and it is important that we speak with one voice, and come to the same conclusions. I assure the hon. Gentleman that such liaison has happened.

A Bill is before the House that will enact parts of our response to the undoubted issue raised by hon. Members, on which some have campaigned for a long time. I welcome the support that the Committee has been able to give to the Government’s position. There are several aspects of the matter on which we have gone further than was perhaps originally intended, in recognition of the strength of the Committee’s arguments. There are some areas on which we still do not have 100% agreement, and I shall deal with those.

The Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, which amends the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, had its Second Reading on Monday, and there was an excellent debate. The House broadly endorsed the Government’s approach. The Bill includes provisions that will extend the 1991 Act to all places, including private property. It provides legislative backing for the police and Crown Prosecution Service to pursue prosecutions for attacks on private property. That will reassure victims and their families that the law is on their side. I hope that once the Bill is passed the circumstances that the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) is all too familiar with, and which she spoke about forcefully in the House, will never again arise.

The Bill for the first time incorporates an aggravated offence, under the 1991 Act, of an attack on an assistance dog, recognising the terrible consequences of such an attack. That is important: an assistance dog is almost an extension of the person with whom it works. It is part of that person’s being, and an attack on a guide dog or hearing dog makes a huge difference to their life. It is right to clarify and extend the law in that way.

The Bill will also clarify the fact that courts should consider the character of the owner when taking decisions about dogs of prohibited types, and dangerously out-of-control dogs. That point was raised by several hon. Members: it is not the breed, but what the individual dog is doing, that is important. There is no breed that cannot be dangerous in the hands of an irresponsible owner. Sometimes that fact is taken to considerable lengths, because there are people—a very small number—who deliberately have dogs that they use as weapons, to intimidate and on occasion actually cause hurt to another person.

That leads me to a point raised by the hon. Member for Bolton West: new legislation is not needed to deal effectively with a dog being deliberately set on a person to injure them. It would be covered by the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, and the maximum penalty would be life imprisonment. The question of the appropriateness of the maximum fine level does not apply: the law treats such action as a very serious offence, and the prosecuting authorities have the capacity to deal with it.

The Bill would also provide the police with discretion to use the civil route in cases involving prohibited types of dog, with improved welfare, reduced kennel time and police savings in time and money. It would provide comprehensive powers for the authorities to take preventive action to stop dog attacks and nip issues in the bud, through, for example, a community protection notice.

That issue was raised by many hon. Members in the debate, and we need to discuss the fundamental question whether our proposed measures in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill treat the same issue and have the same rigour as the so-called dog control notices that many advocate. My answer is that they do. In fact, they are an even more flexible tool.

I accept, however, that we need to substantiate that position and satisfy people’s concerns. One thing I would say to everyone involved in the debate is, “Please let us not get hung up on the label of dog control notices.” It is profoundly unhelpful to the debate about providing protection if the only thing people are arguing for is something with that name, rather than something that does what they want to see done. That is my first point.

Secondly, many people have pointed with approbation to what is available in Scotland, saying, “That is the answer. Why on earth are the UK Government so stupid or obstinate as not to follow the Scottish route?” Of course I respect what the Scottish Government do and the measures they introduce, but we need carefully and critically to consider whether the dog control notice legislation in Scotland achieves the objectives it was set. There is some evidence from Scottish local authorities that the notices are not working as well as hon. Members would believe—if, indeed, they believed everything that was sent to them.

At the 21 May meeting of the cross-party group on animal welfare in Edinburgh, Scottish local authorities expressed a number of concerns, which highlighted the ongoing problems with the dog control notice—or DCN—system. The meeting was also attended by a number of dog welfare organisations from across the UK, and a series of detailed problems were identified.

A dog control notice in Scotland must be served by two officers, and any breach needs corroborated evidence from two officers to pursue a case, which is a limiting factor in bringing successful conclusions. A person who is served a dog control notice must attend the council offices, or two officers must visit their home, so it is hardly the on-the-spot mechanism that some have suggested it is. A dog has to have been out of control on at least one occasion before a DCN can be served, so the measure does not nip the issue in the bud. Since some people have strongly advocated that we need to be able to identify the problem before it happens, I am not sure that the notices satisfy that test.

Another problem is that the police in Scotland have no powers to serve DCNs; only local authorities do. Importantly, there is no requirement for a dog owner to advise their local authority if they re-home a dog with another owner, or to inform it of the new owner’s address. A potentially dangerous dog, therefore, can easily appear in a different local authority area with absolutely no recourse.

We need to make clear what the DCNs in Scotland do that we do not and, likewise, what we can offer that DCNs do not. When we have done that critical comparison, I hope that hon. Members will take a view as to whether we are working on the right lines. I perfectly understand the concerns, but I ask people to treat the arguments with the necessary respect and care, rather than simply adopting the slogan that this is the only possible solution to the problem.

[Miss McIntosh]

I should declare that I am a Scottish advocate, albeit non-practising. I am aware of the criticism that the dog control notices in Scotland are labour and resource-intensive, but I think that the Minister has just walked into a situation where he has given very good grounds for the dog control notice legislation to be reviewed, to allow the police to administer the notices.

I do not think, however, that the Minister has answered the question about prevention that has been put by a number of hon. Members. Although there has to have been one incident, I think that the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) said correctly that it has to be a proven incident and not just a malicious report. I think that the Minister has just made the case for a review of dog control notices, and I do not see in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill anything that comes close to a preventive measure.

[Mr Heath]

That is where we need detailed and careful examination of the proposals. I accept the point that the hon. Member for Ogmore made—that part of that process will be to consider the guidelines—but I cannot give him an absolute commitment that the guidelines will be ready for Committee. I wish I could, but there is a very good reason why I cannot: we are working carefully through the issues, with the various dog welfare interests, the police, the local authority associations and everyone with a professional interest in the matter, so that we get the guidance and the compass of the notices right, and the hon. Gentleman’s demands are met.

I do not want to speak out of turn or put words into the mouths of other organisations—that would be inappropriate—but we have generally found that when we have been able to explain the benefits to interested organisations, and have done a “compare and contrast” between what they hope could be achieved through dog control notices and what we believe we can achieve through the new orders, they acknowledge the facts.

I hope that hon. Members do not see this as patronising, because that is not my intention, but there is sometimes a lag between what hon. Members are aware of as concerns and the solutions to those concerns. I hope that there will be a catching-up regarding the briefings that some people have received—from the Local Government Association, for instance, which now welcomes the antisocial behaviour measures and accepts that they will enable local authorities to do a lot for dogs.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I am tempted to use, or subvert, an old adage, and say that I have been patronised in better places—as indeed I have.

If the Minister cannot introduce the guidance at short notice, I suggest that he introduce in Committee, or even before, the comparisons he has talked about, along with any other detail. The more we have in black and white to work with, the more we might be assured. Alternatively, we might say that we are far from assured; nevertheless, we need in front of us whatever he has.

[Mr Heath]

I very much understand that, having sat in more Bill Committees over the years than I care to enumerate. I recognise that that is exactly what the Public Bill Committee will wish to do, in examining the notices. What I hope will emerge is that the antisocial behaviour measures provide a flexible package that will deal effectively with irresponsible dog owners, and will do everything available under a DCN, and more.

When the hon. Gentleman was saying, “Will it do this, will it do that?” he saw me nodding. That was because I had a sort of mental checklist, and was thinking, “Yes it will do that, yes it will do that.” It could include, for instance, positive requirements for an individual to attend training classes or to keep their dog on a lead—that sort of specificity.

There is a view that we are talking about a broad-brush area-based measure, but that is not the case. The measures are intended exactly as we are saying—to address the issues of a person with a dog that might get out of control, and to be able to deal with that at an early stage. Crucially, they are personal to the owner and not the dog—a point stressed by everyone—which is an important difference between our measures and the dog control notices. The focus must be on the individual understanding of the person’s responsibility for the animal under their control, and what they need to do to improve their management of that animal.

My expectation is that once people understand both the flexibility and the compass of the proposals, they will accept that such matters are covered. However, it is not for me to pre-empt discussions in Committee. I simply invite Members in each place to approach this with an open mind and to see whether the items on their individual mental checklists are ticked off.

Incidentally, public space protection orders will directly replace dog control orders, which will enable local authorities to impose the same restrictions, while also consulting on other issues in the vicinity.

I think that all that will do the job, but I completely recognise that Members need to be persuaded, which is why I invite them to consider the evidence carefully.

[Julie Hilling]

I may be pre-empting the Minister’s comments, but another concern is about prioritising and resourcing. In talking about the gamut of antisocial behaviour, what priority and resources will be given to this area?

[Mr Heath]

That is difficult for me to answer, because it will be in the hands of local authorities in combination with the police. I can only express the hope that such behaviour will be a key area, but we will not give it a greater priority just by giving it a different name. Either it will be seen as something that local authorities and constabularies need to address, or it will not. I hope and expect that local authorities will address it because of all the cases that hon. Members have recited, which we all recognise as extremely serious. If they do not do so, I hope that they will swiftly be reminded by their constituents that they need to give that matter proper care. It would be meaningless for me to give her a blanket assurance, other than to say that that is certainly my expectation.

Another issue that has repeatedly been raised, with several Members covering common ground, is consolidation of legislation. I perfectly understand the argument that it is nice to have a neat legislative bundle with everything that relates to a particular subject. The fact is that English and Welsh law is not like that, and never has been. Consolidation is quite difficult to achieve, and we have sometimes found that consolidated legislation misses out important elements of former legislation. To be perfectly honest, I am not convinced that the substantial resource required to consolidate legislation is worth it, because practitioners perfectly well understand the legislative tools at their disposal.

We should instead concentrate on consolidating our approach to, and our strategy for dealing with, dog control and welfare issues. That is different from getting the legislation into some sort of legal Napoleonic code. For instance, when we considered consolidation, we found that the provisions are reasonably accessible and that there is no great confusion. It certainly has not been brought to my attention that there are significant confusions in existing legislation.

If we consolidated, would we retain all the civil and criminal options currently available? Some people ask why on earth we rely on legislation from 140 or 150 years ago, but such legislation is sometimes a good basis for dealing with illegal activity. Many practitioners have told us that it would be a great mistake to consolidate the Dogs Act 1871 into current legislation because it is very useful and covers some areas that are not obviously covered by other legislation.

I hear the arguments for consolidation, but, first, we could not have introduced the measures before the House in the time scale available—that is important, because this is urgent—and secondly, it would not necessarily achieve anything. I agree with the hon. Member for Ogmore that we must ensure that we provide perhaps a single set of guidance—I shall talk to my noble Friend Lord de Mauley about whether that is appropriate—so that everybody knows what applies, how it applies and how best to use it to achieve Parliament’s objectives.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I thank the Minister for his explanation. To give him some comfort, when I was in his position and I was asked to consolidate legislation, wise civil servants always said, “Keep well away from it. If you do that, we will not be able to do a dozen other important things, because of the timing.” If that is his approach, I urge him to consider how to bring forth a more consolidated strategy across Government, and not just have a piecemeal approach. All the issues that we have talked about show the clear necessity of having a joined-up approach—not just in Whitehall, but in local government and agencies—to deal with a range of measures. If we are not going to have consolidated legislation, we certainly need a joined-up strategy that is down in black and white.

[Mr Heath]

Having now conceded the fact that when the hon. Gentleman was in my position in government he received exactly the same advice about consolidated legislation, which he has just called for, he has now mirrored my advice to him that there is a case for a consolidated strategy. That is a clever bit of opposition—he first asks for something on which he knows that the answer will be no, and he then, when I give him something on which the answer is yes, asks me to do it.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will you do it?

[Mr Heath]

I will certainly discuss with my noble Friend whether the matter commends itself to him, and he will need to work on it with other Departments. I can see the strength of the sentiment behind being very clear about how we bring together holistically the various elements relating to dealing with dogs. I simply reject the view that we should spend a lot of parliamentary time on trying to fit together various bits of legislation that do not fit well together, some of which have criminal standards of proof and some of which have civil.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

It would be a great test for the Minister’s civil servants.

[Mr Heath]

It might be a good examination question—we sometimes refer such matters to the Law Commission for their erudite musings—but I do not particularly want my Department to spend time on that at the moment. I am not being flippant; I am simply saying that that is not the most pressing thing, because it would not improve the effectiveness of what we are doing.

On microchipping, which several Members mentioned, I am grateful for the support expressed for what we are doing. It is absolutely essential to get it right and that implementation is successful. We are working closely with everybody who has a direct interest, such as the Association of Chief Police Officers, local authorities, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, Blue Cross, the British Veterinary Association, Dogs Trust, the Kennel Club and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. We will ensure that, as far as possible, we get the message across to the great bulk of the public that they now need to do microchipping. We are working with database operators and the microchip manufacturers and implanters to address standards and ensure quality and consistency.

My hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) made the point that the onus is on owners to maintain the data on the microchip. It will be an offence not only not to microchip a dog, but, just as for a vehicle registration, to have inaccurate information on the registered database.

We have addressed the issue that some dog owners do not have much financial resource available and may see microchipping as a difficult cost to bear: free microchipping is accessible through Dogs Trust, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home and Blue Cross centres—35 in total—and some local authorities also offer free or discounted microchipping. I am grateful to everybody working on that, and to the Kennel Club for providing free microchip scanners to all local authorities.

This is a good opportunity to promote national microchipping month. Its launch a week ago was most successful. It was hosted by my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton, who is not in the Chamber at the moment. We are progressing on the issue in what I hope is an effective way.

I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury—

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

The Cotswolds.

[Mr Heath]

I am sorry; I am behind the times. It was Tewkesbury. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) that we would love to move more quickly, but all the advice says that we are moving at the most sensible rate to get to our objective. We will ensure that microchipping starts with puppies and is extended to the whole dog population. In my view, the most important thing is to get it right and have something that is usable in tracing back to their owners not just all the dogs that go missing each year, but those that cause nuisance. Hopefully, we will be able to connect them to an owner rather more easily than at the moment.

Of course, some owners will not microchip, just like the huge number of people mentioned by the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton who ignored dog licensing procedures when they were in place. There will be some who will simply not want to do it, but at least now there will be an offence. When a dog is found, if it does not have a microchip and we can trace it to an owner, that owner will have committed an offence. No licensing system is perfect, but this will certainly go a long way.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I thank the Minister for his detailed responses. I do not want to pre-empt subsequent Committee consideration of the Home Office Bill, but if a microchipped dog identified to have been part of an attack on a companion dog or an individual is traced back to an owner, what will the repercussions be?

[Mr Heath]

That pre-empts not only the legislation, but the secondary legislation that we are introducing, although of course we will answer in due course. It will be an offence, so there will be a penalty. The offence, in the first instance, will be failure to keep the information up to date, but if the information is there and we can trace the dog back to the owner, it will depend what the dog has done and the circumstances.

I should mention an important point. Having discussed the circumstances, I should give some reassurance to my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) that the courts will be able to take into account the circumstances of the case. We will have to return to the discussion about what comprises curtilage of a property, what a dwelling is and so on.

There is a difficulty of definition. We certainly want to deal with the issue of the postman or the political canvasser who gets bitten by a dog out in the yard or garden, where they have perfectly legitimate business, but we also do not want to penalise the householder whose dog is doing its job of protecting property against an intruder who has no business there. Getting that balance right is critical. When someone is within a house, it can reasonably be assumed that unless they have been invited in, they must give a strong argument for why they have legitimate business in the house rather than being an intruder.

It is different for a garden, or sometimes even a shed. A child going to pick up a football that has been kicked into a garden should not be set upon by a dangerous dog. They may be an intruder, but they are nevertheless not a burglar or anyone with malicious intent. A public interest test must be satisfied before a prosecution can be brought. I hope that the guidance to the prosecuting authority will make that distinction clear. It might satisfy the difficulty that Members have correctly spotted with the definition of what exactly comprises the area that we are discussing.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

My hon. Friend has been speaking for a long time and has given us a huge amount of detailed information. Before he sits down, will he comment on the divisive issue of the feline and canine sector council, which is dividing the dog world and making dogs’ fur fly?

[Mr Heath]

I most certainly will. I have the unprecedented benefit of having rather longer than usual to reply to the debate. I hoped that I was making use of it to provide the answers that hon. Members wanted, so I apologise to my hon. Friend if I was taking too long to get to the issue he raised. I have one more thing to discuss first, if I may—dog breeding—because it was raised by a number of hon. Members.

It is absolutely right that breeding is a key element of education, apart from anything else, which is exactly the point made by the hon. Member for Ogmore. People must know, first of all, what is and is not appropriate, and the consequences of breeding puppies. Buyers also need to know whether they are buying a breed that needs a 5-mile run every morning, so they do not keep it in a flat on the 17th floor. They need to know—the hon. Gentleman will know—how adorable a Jack Russell might or might not be before they buy one, and what special requirements it might have.

A sort of ignorant cruelty can be involved when people buy the wrong breed of dog in the wrong circumstances and then find that they cannot manage it. That is sad, because they probably bought the dog for unimpeachable reasons—they love the look of the dog and its nature—but they simply cannot look after it. Education is important.

Another important point was raised by the Committee and my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth about the threshold for needing a licence. I would love to be able to give him an absolutely explicit response, so that he could say, “Yes, that’s the answer.” It is not as simple as that, as is so often the case with licensing. Although there is a five-litter cut-off for what is, in any circumstances, considered a business, it is for the local authority to determine who is in the business of breeding and selling dogs when it comes to smaller numbers of litters a year.

There is no definitive term that has the sanction of statutory law behind it; it is for the courts to agree or not agree with the local authority. Actually, there are a variety of circumstances in which that sort of decision comes before the court: there is a degree of flexibility, and trading standards officials must satisfy the court that what they are dealing with is a business in the legislative sense. One litter produced in a 12-month period is unlikely to be considered a business; five litters almost certainly will be, but local authorities have a number of tests that they are asked to apply to determine whether somebody is trading. I will not go into them now, because that is for another Department to determine, but those are the criteria used, and they have the support of case law, if not statute law, in deciding whether somebody falls into that category.

I do not know whether I have satisfied my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth; I suspect that I have not, because it is a vague response. If he is not satisfied, I ask him to talk to his local trading standards officials about whether they feel they have the right legal criteria in place to do their job.

[George Eustice]

The point I was making is that there would be clarity if the number was simply two litters. Local authorities could work to that. The situation that the Minister outlined means that if a local authority has concerns about a breeder producing three litters a year, it must then go through a legal process. The breeder could use as a defence the fact that there were fewer than five litters. Then there is an expensive, difficult legal process, which does not incentivise local authorities to enforce standards in those areas.

[Mr Heath]

I do not think that it would be a defence to say that there were fewer than five litters. It would be about the circumstances of the breeding programme and the puppies being put on sale. I hear what my hon. Friend says. I will take the matter back to my hon. Friends in Departments with responsibility for that area to see whether clarification is necessary.

My hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds set out clearly why he is concerned about the canine and feline sector council. Let me be absolutely clear that it is not a Government organisation; it is independent of Government. I hope that immediately sets some of his concerns to rest. However, as an independent sectoral body, it could be a useful vehicle that pulls together the views of the sector and feeds them into the Animal Health and Welfare Board for England, which again is not a regulatory body. It simply provides advice for Ministers from the perspective of the users of welfare legislation in the widest sense. Therefore, what we are talking about is not a regulatory or a policy formation body, but a conduit for information, hopefully with the benefit of proper discussion within the sector.

The Kennel Club is one of the bodies represented, and the Dog Advisory Council, which my hon. Friend mentioned, has been invited on to the sector council. I hope that Sheila Crispin will take part, because I would certainly like her views as well. The one thing I stress again is that this is not a regulatory body set up for the purposes of excluding anybody or indeed including one sector to the disbenefit of others. I hope that satisfies my hon. Friend.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I hear what the Minister says, but it seems that the support council was set up with undue haste and very little consultation. Perhaps he will tell us how the chairman was chosen. Was he chosen by open advertisement, for example?

[Mr Heath]

I cannot answer that because the council is not a body of Government; it is independent of Government. Perhaps my hon. Friend needs to have a discussion on this matter with Michael Seals, the chair of the Animal Health and Welfare Board for England. I am happy to try to arrange that for him if it would help. It would be wrong for me as a Minister to assume responsibility for something that is not within my control, but I am, none the less, happy to try to oil the machinery that allows him to get the answers he wants.

I have, as my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds reminded me, spoken for some time now.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

rose—

[Mr Heath]

Obviously, the hon. Member for Ogmore feels that I have not spoken for long enough, so I give way.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

The Minister is being generous. I do not want to take time away from the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton who will be responding to the debate, but I am not sure whether I missed the Minister addressing the question of cattle, horses, llamas and alpacas. Will he explain the Government’s current thinking on them?

[Mr Heath]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because I did miss that out. At the moment, there is no evidence to support the necessity of extending the definition of livestock in the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 to include camelids. Obviously, we will keep the matter under review. I do not wish to trivialise the matter, but, in my experience, camelids generally are quite capable of looking after themselves in most circumstances and would not take kindly to a dog yapping round them. If there is evidence that they need adequate protection, I am happy to provide that.

I reassure hon. Members that we do not need specific legislation if there is an emerging problem, because there is recourse to justice through the Dogs Act 1871, which I mentioned earlier, the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and the Criminal Damage Act 1971. Indeed, the new antisocial behaviour measures that we are introducing could be brought to bear as well. We will continue to talk to all the organisations that are involved. If there is a strong view that further protection is needed, we will give it consideration. At the moment, though, we do not feel that a case has been made. I absolutely agree that we do not want a new prescribed list; that is not the way to do this sort of legislation. The generic protections that are in place are more useful than anything else.

I hope I have answered exhaustively all the questions that have been raised—looking at the exhausted faces around the room I think I probably have done so. This has been an extremely useful debate. I thank the Committee for its care in introducing the report and the valuable points it raises. I hope that during the proceedings on the legislation before the House we will be able to tease out yet more details of what is proposed, and that at the end of the day we will have in place exactly the sort of holistic legislation that people have been calling for and which is crucial to deal with the small minority of dog owners who simply are not up to the task.

16:05

[Miss McIntosh]

With the leave of the House, I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Brady. I thank the Liaison Committee for allowing us to debate the two reports, including the Government response, and all who contributed. I give special thanks to the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) who has carefully followed the debate all afternoon and who makes a major contribution to the work of the Committee. I also want to thank all colleagues on the Committee for cramming in the work in such a short time. There will be disappointment, not least among charities and practitioners, that the Minister has repeated that there will not be consolidation of the legislation.

I want to dwell on two or three points in our report. The hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) and especially the Minister gave bravura performances, summing up all the points that have been raised. There is an issue about the definition of curtilage of a dwelling or ancillary buildings, but that is something that we can consider during the passage of the Bill. When a dog is a danger to public safety, we would like to see clear guidance on the test to determine

“whether someone is fit and proper to own or keep a dog, as well as to how the temperament of the dog is to be assessed. Those advising the courts must be required to have appropriate training in dog behaviour.”

I echo the points about resources and proper sentencing.

Dog control notices, or whatever we call them, must reassure the public that some up-front savings will be made by managing out-of-control dogs in a much more appropriate way in England, and that savings will be recouped from the police, local authorities, the health service and individuals in the community if dog attacks are reduced. Finally, let me reiterate that we concluded in our second report that it is not helpful for policy to focus on the breed type, as any dog may become aggressive in the hands of an irresponsible dog owner.

Question put and agreed to.

16:08

Sitting adjourned.

Written Ministerial Statements

Thursday 13th June 2013 Written Statements

Thursday 13 June 2013

Pre-Council EU Foreign Affairs Council

Thursday 13th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

The EU Foreign Affairs Council (Trade) will take place in Luxembourg on 14 June 2013. I shall represent the UK on all the issues on the agenda.

The substantive items on 14 June will be: the EU negotiating mandate for the EU-US transatlantic trade and investment partnership agreement; the state of play of negotiations on the EU-Canada free trade agreement, known as the comprehensive economic and trade agreement (CETA); and the prospects for a successful agreement on trade facilitation at the ninth WTO ministerial conference (MC9) in December.

Two AOB items will also be discussed: EU work with the Bangladeshi authorities and the International Labour Organisation following the tragic collapse of a garment factory in Dhaka; and political agreement on the two trade omnibus dossiers which bring EU decision making into line with the Lisbon treaty.

Double Taxation Convention and Protocol (Netherlands)

Thursday 13th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

A double taxation convention and protocol with respect to bank taxes with the Netherlands was signed on 12 June 2013. The text of the convention and protocol has been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and will be made available on HM Revenue and Customs’ website. The text will be annexed as a schedule to a Treasury Order and laid before the House of Commons in due course.

A protocol amending the double taxation convention with respect to taxes on income and on capital gains with the Netherlands was also signed on 12 June 2013. The text of the protocol has been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and will be made available on HM Revenue and Customs’ website. The text will be scheduled to a draft Order in Council and laid before the House of Commons in due course.

Royal Bank of Scotland

Thursday 13th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)]

The Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) yesterday announced that Stephen Hester will be stepping down as chief executive officer (CEO) later this year.

When Stephen Hester took on the job at RBS in 2008 it was on the edge of collapse. RBS today is safer, stronger and better able to support its customers. I commend Stephen Hester for everything he has done to make this turnaround possible.

Having brought RBS back from the brink, now is the time to move on from the rescue phase to focus on RBS being a UK bank that provides greater support to the British economy, helping businesses and job creation here, and which can return to the private sector in a way that ensures value for the taxpayer.

Energy Council

Thursday 13th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)]

The United Kingdom was represented by Shan Morgan, Deputy Permanent Representative to the EU, at the EU Energy Council in Luxembourg on 7 June 2013. Discussion centred on the internal energy market, energy technology and innovation, biofuels and external energy relations.

The presidency reported on progress on the proposed directive relating to the quality of petrol and diesel fuels and on the promotion of renewable energy. The Energy Commissioner noted that the Commission was flexible on its proposal to cap at 5% the contribution of so-called first generation—or land-based—biofuels to the 10% renewable fuel target for 2020. The Irish presidency concluded that discussions would continue in a final meeting of the indirect land use change ad hoc group under its presidency.

Responding to the Commission’s 2012 communication and taking account of the outcome of the 22 May European Council, the Council adopted conclusions on “Making the internal energy market work”. The Commission set out some concerns over capacity mechanisms, arguing that if 28 member states each put in place expensive arrangements to have reserve generating capacity in times of shortage, then this would both be expensive and undermine the single market.

In a debate on the Commission communication on “Energy technologies and innovation”, Ministers agreed on the need to prioritise research and innovation, in order to bring down the cost of new technologies and accelerate their entry to the market; and endorsed Commission proposals to update the strategy energy technology plan and develop an integrated road map by the end of 2013. A number of member states, including the UK, called for more detail on how national and EU funding mechanisms would be integrated. Other member states underlined that any new reporting system should avoid the excessive administrative burdens associated with the strategic energy technologies information system (SETIS).

On energy external relations, the Energy Commissioner reported on developments on gas import pipelines, underlining that the EU’s energy single market rules would apply to all import pipelines into the EU and that member states’ bilateral contracts with neighbouring third countries should embody the principles of transparency and fair competition. On the southern corridor, it was noted that Georgia may soon join the energy community treaty and that Azerbaijan’s President would visit Brussels on 21 June for discussions concerning the preferred pipeline option. The Commission announced two conferences towards the end of the year, including one on eastern Mediterranean gas.

Finally, Lithuania gave a presentation of its presidency priorities: completing the internal market and strengthening the external dimension. Lithuania also hoped to make progress with the European Parliament towards an agreement on biofuels, on notification of infrastructure investments and on an expected Commission proposal on sustainability criteria for biomass.

Parliamentary Question (Correction)

Thursday 13th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I responded to a written PQ from the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) on 20 May 2013 asking which coastal towns have benefited from flood defences under the coastal change pathfinders scheme, and how much has been spent on coastal defences in each such community since the termination of that scheme.

My response included a table detailing spend by authority. This table has now been updated by clarifying the figure given for Waveney district council.

Conflict Resources

Thursday 13th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

I, together with my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for International Development, the Member for Putney (Justine Greening), and the Secretary of State for Defence, the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), wish to update the House about our plans for funding conflict prevention, stabilisation and peacekeeping activities through the conflict resources settlement over the next two financial years. Our written ministerial statement of 19 November 2012, Official Report, column 19WS, provided details of planned allocations, covering both the conflict pool and the peacekeeping budget, for the 2010 spending round period. This statement updates the House on adjustments made to these planned allocations.

We have now reviewed conflict pool allocations for FY2013/14 and FY14/15. We intend that this funding continue to be spent within the strategic context set out by the building stability overseas strategy (BSOS). Delivering this strategy is an important priority for the Government. Enhancing genuine stability by supporting the development of societies with strong and legitimate institutions which can manage tensions peacefully is central to our national interests.

The size of the settlement increased to £664 million in FY 13/14, with the peacekeeping budget continuing to have first call on available resources. Taking into account the significant savings we secured at the UN in FY12/13, in particular in the tri-annual negotiations on the scale of contributions, £435 million has been set aside for peacekeeping budget requirements. Based on this we have allocated £229 million to the conflict pool in FY 13/14. This represents an increase of £20 million over the £209 million allocated in FY 12/13.

For FY14/15 we currently have less certainty about peacekeeping demands. We have provisionally estimated a peacekeeping top-up of £85 million from the conflict pool, giving a projected available allocation of £224 million for conflict pool programmes. Once the position is clearer, and further negotiations on UK contributions to UN peacekeeping have taken place, we will update these figures and would expect to be able to allocate some additional funding to the conflict pool for the FY 14/15. The table below shows the details.

Health Select Committee Report (Public Expenditure)

Thursday 13th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

I have today laid before Parliament “Government Response to the House of Commons Health Select Committee report into Public Expenditure on Health and Care Services: Eleventh Report of Session 2012-13”, Cm 8624.

Even with this Government’s £12.7 billion investment in the NHS and additional £7.2 billion investment in adult social care, I acknowledge that our health and care system is facing enormous pressures from rising demands for its services. Yet both the NHS and local authorities are rising to these challenges, and through a combination of increased efficiency and wiser spending are continuing to deliver high-quality care for their patients and service users.

However, we do need to go further than just delivering the same service. If we are to meet the needs of our ageing population, the NHS and its partners in social care need to look seriously at how care is being provided, particularly to older patients and those with long-term conditions.

Our healthcare services need to be more efficient. This does not mean cutting services or finding short-term fixes—it means getting better services to people in a timely way. The number of people over 85 is set to double in coming decades. Doing things differently is the only way we will meet people’s expectations within a constrained budget.

Since April—under this Government’s reforms—GPs, local authorities and hospitals are now working together to make sure that services are integrated and that more is provided in the community and closer to patients’ homes.

Justice and Home Affairs Post Council Statement

Thursday 13th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

The Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) Council was held on 6 and 7 June in Luxembourg. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), and I attended on behalf of the United Kingdom.

The Council began with the Justice day. The presidency invited member states to give general support to part of the proposed regulation on data protection, while at the same time stressing that nothing would be formally agreed until agreement had been reached on the entire proposal. There was a detailed discussion during which a number of member states including the UK stressed that further work was needed, that clarity was required on where exemptions would apply, and supporting a properly-defined “risk-based” approach. The UK stressed the need to take account of the effect on small and medium-sized enterprises as well as major ones. A number of states, including the UK, argued that it was too soon to accept the presidency’s text and the level of “general support” called for by the presidency was not forthcoming. The relevant text will be further discussed in future negotiations.

The presidency secured a general approach on the proposed directive on protection of the financial interests of the Union by criminal law. The Council agreed to a number of amendments to the Commission’s proposal, including excluding VAT from scope and deleting the requirement for member states to set minimum terms of imprisonment. The presidency made it clear that the general approach was conditional on the text being based on article 83(2) rather than article 325 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union. This was an outcome which the UK supported.

The presidency presented a paper concerning the proposed regulation on a European account preservation order (EAPO), highlighting the importance of striking an appropriate balance between the interests of the creditor and the debtor—the concern that had led to the UK deciding not to opt in. Discussions covered the possible liability of a creditor who had suffered loss as a result of a wrongly issued EAPO, the possibility of the creditor being required to provide security, and the issue of ex parte proceedings.

Over lunch Ministers discussed the charter of fundamental rights, and rejected calls for work designed to increase its visibility.

The Council considered the proposed regulation on insolvency. All member states which spoke, including the UK, supported the proposal. The UK pressed for speed, highlighting the benefits of the proposed measure for the internal market. Various delegations intervened to raise points of detail.

The Commission presented its new proposal on acceptance of certain public documents as one which would reduce regulatory procedural burdens and enable savings of £255 million per year.

The Council adopted conclusions on fundamental rights, rule of law and the charter of fundamental rights. The Commission presented its annual report on the charter and made reference to the justice scoreboard. The UK stressed that the justice scoreboard had not been accepted by the Council and had no legal base; moreover; rule of law work at EU level should focus on an informal exchange of views—there was no power for the Commission in respect of member states’ constitutions.

A state of play report was given on EU accession and the presidency noted the progress made.

The Council adopted the EU action plan drugs strategy for 2013-17, and received a presentation by the director of the European monitoring centre for drugs and drugs addiction.

The Lithuanian Minister made a presentation of his country’s justice priorities for their forthcoming presidency. They included the common European sales law and data protection, and they would seek general approaches on the account preservation order and the insolvency regulation. They would also take forward proposals on counterfeiting and protection of the Union’s financial interests.

The second day began in mixed committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen States) where Ministers welcomed the deal reached in trilogue on the Schengen evaluation mechanism (SEM) and Schengen borders code (SBC). The package retains the member state peer-to-peer evaluation system and control over reintroduction of temporary internal border controls, with a greater role for the Commission in the implementation of the evaluation system and increased European Parliament access to documents. The presidency also welcomed the third biannual Schengen governance report. The Commission noted that the pressure at the Greece-Turkey land border had decreased, but warned member states to remain vigilant for displacement pressure.

The Greek Minister then presented an overview of progress made on the Greek national action plan on asylum and migration (GNAP). The Minister highlighted what he saw as key achievements, the greatest being the full operation of the new asylum service, as well as the appointment of a single co-ordinator to administer the structural funds. He noted that the focus would now be on raising the standards by opening new reception centres, introducing mobile screening units and through quicker processing. The Greek Minister thanked the UK for its financial support for returns from Greece. The Commission welcomed Greece’s progress, but remained concerned about conditions in some detention centres, and reminded Greece that, given continuing under spending of EU funds, increasing absorption capacity should be a focus for the Greek authorities.

The main Council started with a discussion on foreign fighters and the potential threat they pose if and when they return to Europe. Member states expressed concern about the matter and I agreed to take forward work with a small number of affected member states. The EU counter-terrorism co-ordinator (Gilles de Kerchove) provided an overview of his recent paper on foreign fighters and urged Ministers to take immediate action to address the potential threat to EU internal security that jihadists travelling to Syria posed. The UK highlighted the importance in supporting those who wanted to do all they can to support the humanitarian effort, while deterring them from actually travelling out to Syria where they are at risk of putting themselves and innocent Syrians in danger. I expressed my disappointment that the European Parliament had failed to adopt its report on the EU PNR directive. The external action service (Maciej Popowski) cautioned against viewing all those who travelled to Syria as terrorists and reminded member states of the need also to address counter-proliferation. The Commission declared its intention to carry out a risk assessment on foreign fighters and enhance the work of the radicalisation awareness network. The presidency concluded that there was broad support for the ideas in the CTC’s paper which would be taken forward at working level. The UK also provided a brief update on the recent attack in Woolwich and thanked colleagues for their messages of condolence.

Next the presidency sought views on the Commission’s proposal for a new Europol regulation focusing on the proposed merger of Europol and the European Police College (CEPOL) and strengthened obligations on member states to provide Europol with information. There was a clear consensus against the merger despite the Commission highlighting that the Council had a duty to follow the common approach on EU decentralised agencies and make efficiency and cost savings. The UK spoke out against the merger, agreeing with 18 other member states that it would have a negative impact on both training and operational activities and that the Commission’s own calculations had failed to demonstrate cost savings. The presidency concluded that work would begin at expert level on the assumption that the merger would not be included in the regulation.

On the proposed obligation to share information, a number of member states expressed opposition to the Commission’s proposals. The UK acknowledged the importance of information sharing but said we could not accept any proposal that made national law enforcement agencies accountable to Europol, or that would lead to member states losing control over decisions on what data they share and with whom. Increased obligations could also result in member states overwhelming Europol with information in order to comply with the regulation, to the detriment of the quality of the information. The UK also raised concerns over obligations to carry out domestic investigations at the request of Europol. No other member states intervened on this point. Discussion will move to expert level.

There was an update on the common European asylum system (CEAS). After four years of negotiations, three of the four instruments were adopted by the Council, and the final element (Eurodac regulation) will be adopted at the June Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council (EPSCO) Council.

There was a discussion on the protection of refugees from Syria. The European external action service was pleased to announce that President Barroso had secured additional aid for Syria, and hoped that the Geneva II process, the international peace conference held in Geneva that discusses the conflict in Syria, would make progress in the medium term. According to the European asylum support office, Syria remained in the top three asylum intake for the EU member states and anticipated that this trend would remain. The Commission welcomed the increase in humanitarian aid and noted that the UNHCR would shortly call for the humanitarian admission of 10,000 refugees, with a further 2,000 set aside for resettlement to the EU. The Commissioner welcomed the high recognition rate within the EU, but remained concerned about the divergent practices between member states and the detention of Syrian nationals. The UK noted an increase in Syrian asylum seekers, and pointed to increased humanitarian aid as the most urgent short-term priority for the EU; the UK had pledged £170 million to date. The medium-term priority should be the establishment of the regional protection programme (RPP) to provide support in the regions affected and the UK hoped its place on the steering committee for the programme would be confirmed soon. Finally, the UK welcomed work by the European Asylum Support Office (EASO) to develop an accurate picture of asylum claims and in co-ordination of any special support that would be requited as a result. The presidency noted that this discussion would continue at the Informal Council in July, where the UNHCR would outline further the plans for the admission and resettlement of Syrian nationals.

In the margins of the Council, the Ministers of Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the UK signed the mobility partnership with Morocco, alongside Commissioner Malmström and the Moroccan Foreign Affairs Minister, Dr Saad Dine El Otmani.

Over a working lunch Ministers discussed free movement an issue the UK has been working hard to get the Council to consider. Although there was a divergence of views on how to deal with this issue, all Ministers agreed that free movement was a core right that should be protected and expressed a wish to work together to look at possible abuse of free movement. The UK, supported by a number of other member states, stressed the need to tackle abuse to ensure continued public confidence in the principle, and called for follow-up work in the Council with a report back to JHA Ministers. However, led by the Commission, a number of member states resisted, arguing that the discussion should be led by the Commission with a focus on the evidence of the problem. The presidency asked a Commission-led group to investigate the issue to provide an interim report to the October JHA Council and a final report in December. It was decided that the EPSCO Ministers would also be given the opportunity to feed into the report. The UK thanked the presidency for the discussion and for the recognition that there should be follow up work at EU level and indicated that the UK, Germany and a number of other member states would also be progressing work on ways of dealing with the abuse of free movement.

Under any other business the presidency reported on work on the Eurosur regulation, regulation 562 (Schengen borders code) and regulation 539 (visa requirements for nationals of non-EU countries). The presidency also provided updates on the three legal migration directives. It called for member states’ flexibility on the files on seasonal workers and intracorporate transferees (ICTs) as they hoped to reach first reading deals. Negotiations for the students and researchers proposal would continue under the Lithuanian presidency. The Commission emphasised the importance of the instruments in making the EU more attractive for companies and highly skilled workers while protecting those who were at risk of exploitation. The UK has not opted in to the proposals on seasonal workers and intracorporate transferees and is considering whether to opt in to the third measure on students and researchers.

The multi-annual financial framework (MFF) was making good progress, and the presidency hoped to secure the basis of a deal before the end of June. The presidency highlighted that negotiations continued on the asylum and migration fund (AMF) and internal security fund (ISF police). On the former, there were a number of issues that required flexibility from member states but there was agreement on the latter, subject to the actual budget itself.

The Lithuanian presidency noted that theirs would be the last full term presidency before the European Parliament elections, so there would be a concerted effort to conclude all outstanding negotiations. In addition, Lithuania had put Europol and cyber security high on the agenda and a debate on the latter would be a focus for the Informal Council in July, alongside a review of the Stockholm programme, a discussion on Syria, and the annual report on immigration and asylum. The eastern partnership would be a horizontal priority for the presidency, and the Minister noted that the eastern partners would be present at the October JHA Council.

Finally, the Commission presented its Communication on migration and development in preparation for the forthcoming high-level dialogue; Sweden briefly explained the role of the global forum on migration and development (GFMD) and looked forward to welcoming member states to the meeting in Stockholm next May; Hungary fed back from the recent ministerial meeting in Istanbul on the Budapest process and discussions on the silk routes partnership; and Slovenia provided an update on the Brdo process (intended to strengthen ties with the western Balkans) and the recent informal meeting of Ministers which discussed action to tackle abuse of visa liberalisation and co-operation on combating illegal arms trafficking. The EU-Russia summit on 3-4 June had briefly touched on JHA issues, in particular the visa facilitation agreement (VFA), which the Commission hoped would be signed soon.

Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures

Thursday 13th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

Section 19(1) of the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011 (the Act) requires the Secretary of State to report to Parliament as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of every relevant three-month period on the exercise of her TPIM powers under the Act during that period.

The level of information provided will always be subject to slight variations based on operational advice.

Grand Committee

Thursday 13th June 2013 Grand Committee

Thursday, 13 June 2013.

Intellectual Property Bill [HL]

Thursday 13th June 2013 Grand Committee

Committee (2nd Day)

14:00

Relevant documents: 3rd Report from the Delegated Powers Committee

Clause 13 : Offence of unauthorised copying etc. of design in course of business

Amendment 23

Moved by

[Lord Clement-Jones]

23: Clause 13, page 15, line 4, at end insert—
“35ZE Offences committed by partnerships and body corporate
(1) Proceedings for an offence under this Act alleged to have been committed by a partnership shall be brought against the partnership in the name of the firm and not in that of the partners, but without prejudice to any liability of the partners under subsection (4).
(2) The following provisions apply for the purposes of such proceedings as in relation to a body corporate—
(a) any rules of court relating to the service of documents;(b) in England and Wales or Northern Ireland, Schedule 3 to the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 or Schedule 4 to the Magistrates’ Courts (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 (procedure on charge of offence).(3) A fine imposed on a partnership on its conviction in such proceedings shall be paid out of the partnership assets.
(4) Where a partnership is guilty of an offence under this Act, every partner, other than a partner who is proved to have been ignorant of or to have attempted to prevent the commission of the offence, is also guilty of the offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.
(5) Where an offence under this Act committed by a body corporate is proved to have been committed with the consent, connivance or neglect of a director, manager, secretary or other similar office of the body, or a person purporting to act in any such capacity, he as well as the body corporate is guilty of the offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.”

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 23, I shall speak also to Amendment 24. Amendment 23 is very straightforward. Really, it is a question for the Minister: as regards the new criminal penalties that apply to registered design rights, why has Section 110 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, “Offence by body corporate: liability of officers”, which ensures that company officers are liable if conniving or consenting, not been replicated here for registered designs? I could read out the relevant offence under the CDPA but I am sure my noble friend is familiar with it. However, it seems odd that everything else replicates what is contained in the CDPA for copyright but not the application concerning the liability of company officers. Considering that so much business is conducted through companies, it seems extraordinary that that provision is not included in the Bill.

I see that there will now be a clause stand part debate. I am not surprised because this is clearly a subject that needs airing. Rather more controversially, Amendment 24 is an attempt to advocate the extension of criminal offences for infringement of unregistered designs. As we know, Clause 13 introduces a new criminal offence of deliberate infringement of a registered design right. While this is a welcome move, to be of any benefit to the vast majority of designers in this country, the Bill needs amending so that criminal sanctions also apply to the deliberate infringement of unregistered designs.

Design is of key importance to the UK economy. There are around 350,000 designers in the UK and UK businesses spend around £35.5 billion on design each year. The majority of the UK’s design community are lone, micro and SMEs, with 87% having fewer than 10 employees and 60% having fewer than four. Approximately 4,000 designs are registered annually in the UK and approximately 5,000 are registered in the EU. However, the great majority of designers rely on unregistered rights.

Each year, between 18,000 and 25,000 unregistered designs are lodged with ACID—which represents designers and was mentioned at Second Reading and in these proceedings—by its some 1,100 members. ACID’s design data bank does not add to any intellectual property rights but provides evidence of the date on which it received a design. It encourages designers to keep an IP audit trail from the seed of an idea to market reality, which provides essential evidence if designs are copied. Extrapolating from that figure of 1,100, it is therefore reasonable to assume that the majority of the UK’s designers rely on unregistered design rights, and on copyright of course.

Why, then, is the new criminal offence limited to infringement of only registered designs? Surely criminal sanctions need to apply to unregistered design rights as they apply to copyright, in order to have any real and lasting benefit for UK designers. The introduction of criminal sanctions for deliberate infringement of registered designs is a progressive step. This is the first time that criminal sanctions have mirrored copyright. While I accept that registration offers designers a longer-term and stronger right, unlike trade marks and patents, there is no extensive examination for registration, so design registration is a very different type of protection.

To register a design costs £60 per design. Regrettably for most lone and micro designers, the cost of registering every iteration of a design would be prohibitive. ACID receives between 18,000 and 25,000 designs annually, so it is clear that informed designers take their design audit trail seriously. However, to ask them to pay £60 would be a real barrier. The majority of ACID settlements have been based on unregistered design rights and the ability to provide a design audit trail held on the ACID design data bank. In its 2010 survey, 89.7% believed that design infringement was deliberate and blatant. In a further survey in 2012, 97% believed design infringement was deliberate and blatant. Given the cost, time and scale of opponents in the majority of these cases, deterrence against copying is critical. Extension of criminal sanctions to unregistered design rights for the majority of the UK designers would be a deterrent to persistent copying in much the same way as it is for copyright and trade mark infringement.

Criminal sanctions have been available for copyright infringement since 1862 and for trade mark infringement since 1994. Criminal prosecutions have been used sparingly, sensibly and appropriately. Copyright is a property right. A trade mark and an unregistered design right are property rights, as is registered design. Whereas persistent copying of the first two constitutes a serious criminal offence, punishable by up to 10 years’ imprisonment, which exceeds the longest sentence for ordinary theft, currently persistently copying designs is not a criminal offence at all. This is completely anomalous. Persistently copying a 2D drawing of a design or a design document can give rise to criminal liability under Section 107 of the CDPA, but when this 2D work is converted into a 3D design, unless it is protected as a work of artistic craftsmanship, which we have previously discussed, copying that 3D version would not be a criminal offence.

I fail to understand the policy decision behind this. Nearly all designs are copied from the 3D original, not the 2D drawing. How do the Government justify giving a higher level of protection to a 2D design brought than they to the 3D manifestation of that design? A telling point was made by designers when they gave an example of the scale of opponent in the three latest cases involving members of ACID. This demonstrates the inequality of arms between infringers and designers. For instance, one ACID member had a turnover of £50,000 and two employees, and its opponent in this infringement case a turnover of £8.7 billion and 78,000 employees. How on earth can a lone designer gain justice in those circumstances?

In a second case, an ACID member with a turnover of £500,000 and 15 employees was opposed by a major retailer with a turnover of £20.5 billion and 145,000 employees. I will not try the Minister’s patience much further—these are difficult cases, where members are seriously prejudiced—but in a third case, an ACID member with a turnover of £250,000 and 10 employees was opposed by, again, a major retailer with £3.4 billion turnover and 52,000 employees.

If anything, in these circumstances, there are quite honestly stronger reasons for imposing criminal offences for unregistered design right infringement than there are for infringing a registered design. I hope that the Minister can elucidate why this is not being done and perhaps give us some assurance that this is under consideration. I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for his lucid introduction of these two amendments. As he says, the first seems to deal with an error. We shall wait to see what the Minister says about it, but we would support it if he chose to take it further.

Amendment 24 picks up the debate where we left it on Tuesday. For most of the time we reflected on why the Government have adopted a two-track approach, although unfortunately in this case the tracks lead in opposite directions. In one there is no attempt to simplify the design rights field. The points made by Ian Hargreaves in his report, and picked up by many commentators, seem to have been ignored. I know that it is difficult to eliminate unregistered design rights; nevertheless the fact that we have five different ways of classifying or approaching these designs is still an irritant and source of confusion for the industry. It cannot be effective in terms of building up the creative industries more generally. It is something that will have to be addressed at some point, if it is not dealt with in this Bill.

The second track is this: why should one penalise on the registered design side but not on the unregistered design side? We will be opposing the question that Clause 13 should stand part in the next group, so my position on this is somewhat complex because I would not want to see criminal penalties brought into this area at all. That is not the right direction of travel and I will expand on that when I speak in the clause stand part debate. Parking that for a moment, I accept absolutely the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. There is no substantive difference in how unregistered and registered designs are treated. The fact that they are registered does not in any sense imply approval or otherwise of them, or give them any status that is different from unregistered ones. The figures are exactly what they are. Most of the people who operate in these fast-moving areas, particularly fashion, tend to use unregistered designs, and those who do so have no real protection when there is a problem.

I was particularly struck by the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, about the way in which the design copying process might happen. Most people would take the 3D representation of a design, not the 2D design. As he pointed out, the discrepancy in how such malfeasance is then approached by the courts is obviously a stark example of how the process is not working.

The noble Lord’s final point about parity of arms is one that we will return to. It is clear that there is a real danger in the creative industries these days that those with the resources can use the system to obtain advantage in the knowledge that people will not be able to defend their designs. Yet we rely on these individuals and small companies to provide the design initiative that is necessary to grow our creative industries. For all these reasons, I support the noble Lord in his amendments.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, consistency is not necessarily a virtue and I think that we should be very careful in the field of intellectual property. We legislate not simply out of tidy-mindedness or a desire to achieve a satisfying consistency by transferring rules and regulations that may have applied relatively successfully in one area to another. However, it seems that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has made a strong case for consistency in the treatment of registered designs and unregistered designs in terms of the proposed criminal offence. I would be grateful if the Minister could give us his explanation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie)]

My Lords, before I begin, I hope noble Lords will allow me to take the opportunity to correct a reference made in my closing speech at Second Reading. In the context of wider points about infringement and the copying of designs, I spoke briefly about the right to license certain intellectual property rights. This is where rights become available to third parties for exploitation under certain conditions. As an example, I cited a figure of 2,097 applications to use designs in this way, but the example in fact referred to patents.

Now that that formality is out of the way, I shall turn to the substantive points that have been debated about the Government’s proposal to introduce a criminal sanction for the deliberate copying of a registered design. I begin by reminding noble Lords of the purpose behind the Bill, which is pertinent to the points that have been raised in the debate. Our objectives, as set out in the consultation on the designs legal framework, are: simplification; improving the services offered by the IPO; strengthening rights, including enforcement; and improving how disputes are resolved. There is clearly a balance to be reached in some of these objectives. Simplification cannot be achieved at the expense of loss of protections in the marketplace. Equally, strengthening rights cannot be at the expense of follow-on innovation.

14:15

It was clear from the responses to the consultation that there was strong support for the UK unregistered design right. We were told that it is relied on when other forms of protection are impractical or inapplicable—for example, when a design is functional or consists of the internal shape or configuration of a product, or when a business produces a large number of designs but only a few will go on to make a profit. Although reducing the complexity of design law was a key element of the Hargreaves review, respondents felt that this should not be at the expense of the unregistered design right, which protects many designs produced by business in the UK. This is why the Government have chosen to retain the UK unregistered right.

Furthermore, the Government heard from stakeholders who made the case for ensuring that the balance is kept between ensuring that a designer is able to see an appropriate return on their investment and supporting follow-on innovation. Many rely on the ability to take inspiration from existing designs to engage in legitimate follow-on innovation. This is a delicate balance, which the Government had at the forefront of their mind when considering criminal sanctions—in particular, the profound difference between rights that arise informally, as is the case with unregistered rights, and those that do not, as is the case when they are available on a publicly accessible register.

I will now respond to the points made in relation to Clause 13, and specifically to Amendments 23 and 24 of my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones. Amendment 23 would insert into the Registered Designs Act 1949 an equivalent to Section 110 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 and Section 101 of the Trade Marks Act 1994. Broadly speaking, the result achieved under the amendment would be that where a body corporate or a partnership has committed an offence, any of its officers or partners involved may also be liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.

I should like to bring to my noble friend’s attention Section 35A of the Registered Designs Act 1949, which relates to the liability of companies. This provision reflects Section 110 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 and was inserted into design law by Schedule 3 to that Act. This provides that where a company is proven to have committed an offence with the consent or connivance of a member of the company’s management, then it, too, will be liable and subject to appropriate sanctions. By accepting the amendment the Government would in part be duplicating a provision that already exists in designs legislation.

However, my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones makes an interesting point with regard to partnerships, which I understand are a common vehicle for business today. Section 101 of the Trade Marks Act also covers business partnerships, which is not replicated in Section 35A of the Registered Designs Act 1949. The issue of the effect on business partnerships is something to which the Government would want to give careful consideration.

Amendment 24 introduces a new clause to widen the scope of the proposed criminal sanctions to also include unregistered designs. For several reasons, the Government consider that this would, in practice, be problematic. First, the register represents a clear starting point for any prosecution. Registered rights can be readily accessed from the Intellectual Property Office and the EU designs registry websites. They include crucial information, including the design that is protected, the date on which protection commenced and whether it is still in force. This is not the case with an unregistered design right. Important information, such as what rights are claimed in an article, who owns those rights and when they came into existence—even whether those design rights existed in the first place—would all need to be assessed before any consideration of whether there had been deliberate and unlawful copying could begin. By contrast, a registration certificate makes it far simpler for the design owner to prove if there has been copying and for the authorities to weigh up the validity of this claim.

Secondly, the uncertainties surrounding unregistered designs, such as the difficulty of knowing when the design right came into existence, mean that it is more difficult for third parties to ensure that they are not infringing that design right. Therefore, against the backdrop of a threat of a criminal conviction, third parties are more likely to wait longer than necessary to be sure that the design is in the public domain before building on it, thereby extending the design right beyond its term and delaying potential innovation. This inhibiting effect is likely to be a particular problem in relation to functional designs, which the UK unregistered right also protects. As a functional result can be achieved only in a limited number of ways, the inhibiting effect on innovation is likely to be more serious or pronounced.

Thirdly, because the UK unregistered right affords protection to functional designs, this could cause difficulties in criminal proceedings where such designs are complex, as they well might be. For example, determining whether the interior of one alternator has been copied from the interior of another is a highly technical issue, probably requiring expert knowledge. This is not the sort of discussion the Government believe should be dealt with in the criminal courts, especially where any element of doubt means that the high standard of proof required is unlikely to be met.

A number of points were raised by noble Lords. My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones raised the issue of design application fees and said that they could be perceived to be somewhat expensive. In respect of fees, it is, I believe, a question of balance. By setting fees too low, we may encourage unscrupulous businesses to register designs that they have no intention of using in the UK, but which may be used to stifle a competitor due to its monopoly right. Design registration must be a considered purpose. For example, it is of no benefit to business or the IPO to have a register of designs that will never be brought to the market. However, we also understand the cost implications for lone designers and SMEs, so we will be looking at the fee structure further in the future. I hope that my noble friend is reassured to some extent by that response.

My noble friend also asked why we cannot use the date of lodging a design from ACID. While no doubt useful, I must emphasise that the voluntary lodging of designs with ACID is not to be taken as being the same as formal registration under the statutory scheme, as a registered design is. My noble friend also referred to SMEs, which do not tend to register their designs, and asked whether they would be disadvantaged. The answer is that those businesses that rely on unregistered design rights will not be disadvantaged by this proposal. This offence adds to existing protections for registered designs; it does not remove anything. Design owners, as now, will have to consider how best to protect their designs and in many fast-moving areas such as fashion will continue to rely on unregistered designs, which may better suit their business models.

My noble friend asked: why two-dimensional and not three-dimensional? The copying of 3D products is not the same as copying the original design document. Competitors therefore take inspiration from existing designs. Copying original design documents is closer to theft and that is why the law treats these matters differently.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked why there was no attempt to simplify designs generally. I believe that was more of a general comment. Noble Lords touched on this issue in Committee on Tuesday. As I hope I made clear, we have retained multiple types of design protection in light of the strong calls for users to do just this.

In light of my response, I ask that my noble friend withdraws the amendment.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, I found the Minister’s reply absolutely fascinating, although the intellectual logic of many parts of it escaped me. He gave a very helpful response to Amendment 23. It just shows that you can trawl through the Registered Designs Act and not find what you are looking for. However, I am impressed that the department found the relevant passages in there. I appreciate that an overlap exists except with regard to partnerships. It is very interesting that there is no reference to partnerships in the existing legislation. Partnerships are interesting bodies. Some of them have unlimited liability whereas others are limited liability partnerships. Therefore, some interesting drafting needs to be done in that regard because LLPs are quite akin to corporate bodies.

Therefore, how does the legislation work? If I divined from what the Minister said that there is intent to come forward with an amendment on Report, I would be extremely happy with that response.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

To clarify, we will give this very careful consideration but I cannot guarantee that we will move an amendment on Report.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, guarantees in Committee are a luxury that Ministers cannot afford. I appreciate the words that he said.

It is a very different kettle of fish with Amendment 24. It is almost difficult to know where to start because the skittles of the argument fall in almost every single case by reference to copyright. On the problematic starting point, the registered design right is of course quite straightforward to prosecute because of the registration but copyright is not so easy. There are relatively few prosecutions for breach of copyright. There would be relatively few unregistered design right prosecutions if my amendment was accepted.

The important thing is the factual basis and establishing the facts. Of course, those prosecuting have the burden of proof on their arguments. That is where it starts from and it is analogous to copyright. There is no register of copyright. There may be one in the States but there is not one here. On the difficulty of knowing when something came into existence, not every 2D document has the date on it saying exactly when it was created and so on. There are matters of fact to be established. Again, it is very similar in copyright to unregistered design rights.

On the point about the inhibiting effect, that is absolutely splendid but I cannot see that that is any greater than would be the case with copyright in 2D. In some respects, you could argue that because 2D is more thematic than 3D, 2D has a much greater inhibiting effect because you can extrapolate from 2D into 3D to a much greater extent. When you spin off and think about software or things of that sort, much of which is covered by copyright, establishing the date, genesis and all those aspects of software creation is fraught with difficult issues but nevertheless people are entitled to the protection of criminal law. That means that those who cynically exploit copyright or design—copyright certainly and trade marks sometimes—are prosecuted.

The fashion industry is not much different from that. I feel quite strongly about this. The Minister mentioned that the fashion industry uses unregistered design but one must think about the economic issues associated with copying of designs in the fashion industry and the cynical way that rip-off retailers take advantage of the original designs by fashion houses and so on. That is an absolutely clear-cut area where the protection and deterrent effect of the criminal law would be extremely useful. I did not make the claim that the voluntary register with ACID would be the killer argument but this is all about evidence. Will it be possible to mount prosecutions using evidence of copied designs or infringement of unregistered designs? The evidence of a register, albeit a voluntary one, would still be extremely useful.

Finally, I am sure that the Minister can recognise that I am somewhat frustrated by the rather circular argument being employed here. The Minister said that this should not apply to unregistered 3D because 2D is not the same, being closer to theft—that is an entirely circular argument. I do not quite see that theft of a 3D design and theft of a 2D design are morally different. In many ways they are not different factually. Why should either of them be closer to theft? I find that a rather interesting argument to mount.

I hope that the Minister will reconsider this issue. It is a matter of huge importance to 350,000 designers, who would cheer the Minister in the streets and bear him aloft through Westminster if he acceded to this, which I am sure would be a great attraction to him. I very much hope that between now and Report he will reconsider but, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 23 withdrawn.

14:30

Debate on whether Clause 13 should stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, that was a very interesting debate and prefigured what I am about to say about the question of criminality in this area. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has made the arguments and is correct about them, and it is up to the Minister to make the best of if. If the industry is voting with its feet and adopting the unregistered design right as its mode of operation, and if it is true that there is a sense that having criminalisation in this area will improve the quality and quantity of our economic activity in it, it must follow logically that criminal sanctions should apply. However, I shall devote the next few minutes to arguing against exactly that proposition, but then, this is Committee.

Clause 13 introduces a new section into the Registered Designs Act, creating a criminal offence of unauthorised copying of design in course of business. It would apply in respect of UK-registered designs and registered Community designs. As I have said, we are concerned about the fact that this is being introduced as a criminal sanction.

There are two categories of offence, and I shall refer to that as I carry on with my remarks. One is about the making of a product by copying a registered design,

“so as to make a product exactly or substantially to that design”,

and the second offence is dealing in products that have been copied. Both will carry sentences of up to 10 years, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned, is very high on the list of tariffs. The arguments for and against criminal sanctions for designs have been extensively aired over recent years, and we should bear in mind that levels of piracy have risen.

To recap briefly, proponents of this move feel that the current civil enforcement is expensive for small innovators and that current civil sanctions are not dissuasive enough for large infringers. Opponents are concerned that unexamined IP rights are a dangerous basis for taking criminal sanctions and that there is a risk of stifling competition in useful products.

We understand the Government’s aim—I have just referred to it—but we worry about whether the proposal for criminal offences in general is the right tool for the job and, in particular, whether it is appropriate and proportionate and would deter those pirates and counterfeiters whose behaviour the public would, I accept, consider to be criminal. There is rather an important discrepancy here. Those who champion criminal sanctions are largely talking about unregistered design rights, which we have been talking about, and, of course, the huge preponderance of design rights are in that category, but the Bill is about only registered design rights and registered Community designs.

Registered design rights are better defined and have a much longer lifetime but, as we discovered, they are not in any sense better examined, so the proposed introduction of criminal sanctions may not work, and I would like to bring some particular problems to the attention of the Committee. The penumbra around a design, which is to be found in the uncertainties about how “exactly or substantially” is defined, makes it unclear what is or is not a criminal act. Unlike parallel trade mark or copyright offences, mere use, whatever that is, of an infringing product, even if no copying is involved, will become a criminal offence. Furthermore, the maximum sentence is very high for what, in fact, could be just a mere business misjudgment without deceptive intent.

The Bill introduces a defence as it states:

“It is also a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to show that the person did not infringe the right in the design”.

However, the inclusion of the new section contributes to the bizarrely complex nature of the offence. For example, if the prosecution shows that D copies the design, and produces something exactly or substantially to that design, D can attempt to show that the product would not produce, for an informed user, the same overall impression as the registered design. These distinctions are hard for specialist lawyers to comprehend, let alone lay people such as jurors or magistrates. I will return to this point in relation to a recent case. Implied in what I have just said, of course, is the major concern that the courts that will deal with these cases will be criminal courts, which have no real experience at all in design law.

The defence that the registered design was not in fact copied raises difficult questions, as many of the cases on copyright infringements have shown. As already mentioned, there is a concern that the proposed provision could turn into a tool to be used by unscrupulous companies, to the detriment of UK designers. It is reasonably inexpensive to register a design, especially as there is no effective examination, and an unscrupulous company could apply to register designs it copied from a UK designer and then threaten that designer with criminal sanctions for producing his or her own design. The prospect of defending a criminal action might be enough to make the designer give in. What sort of fairness does that speak to?

I have some questions for the Minister on the thinking behind this move. Why does the Bill not state a requirement as to where the act occurs? On the face of it, there seems to be no reason why it should not cover making unauthorised copies elsewhere in the EU, where the acts would infringe an RCD, so the defence that it did not infringe the right in the design would not apply.

Secondly, why does new Section 35ZA define “registered” designs as including “registered Community” designs? Does this not leave open whether the offence might not be committed by copying, or dealing in copies of, a foreign-registered design, for example those with a Benelux registration?

Thirdly, following the implementation of the designs directive, the scope of registered design protection has been broadened. This gives rise to the situation where registered design right is now infringed by use of the same design in different products. Can the Minister confirm that, if a design is registered in relation to one type of product—for example, an image of Bugs Bunny on a mug—that design would be infringed if the person featured it on another product such as a pillowcase? If so, in the latter case, would criminal sanctions be applied?

New Section 35ZA(3) applies to dealers infringing products—both importers and traders. One might wonder how stockists of, for example, Samsung Galaxy phones might have behaved towards what were initially allegations made by Apple in respect of infringement. At that point, if the Bill had been enacted, dealers in those products would have faced criminal liability, and up to 10 years’ imprisonment, if they had made an incorrect judgment call as to whether the Samsung products they were attempting to sell would infringe Apple’s registered design. One can only imagine that this would have done serious—and, as it turned out, unnecessary—harm to Samsung.

New Section 35ZA(3) includes as a criminal act the use of a product in the course of a business and the stocking of the product for use. Does the Minister accept that the word “uses” is an unacceptably vague notion for criminal prosecution? What is the Government’s reason for removing the defence of reasonably believing that the defendant’s design was not an infringement—that the designs were different and would not produce in the informed user the same overall impression? This is often the crux of design infringement cases between competitors. It is worth thinking about what Judge Birss said in the Apple v Samsung case in holding that Samsung products did not infringe Apple’s registered designs:

“This case illustrates the importance of properly taking into account the informed user’s knowledge and experience of the design corpus. When I first saw the Samsung products in this case I was struck by how similar they look to the Apple design when they are resting on a table. They look similar because they both have the same front screen. It stands out. However to the informed user (which at that stage I was not) these screens do not stand out to anything like the same extent”.

If Section 35ZA had been in force, would not Samsung have escaped criminal liability only because it got the judgment call as to infringement—the views of the informed user—right? Had Samsung got that wrong, there would be no defence. Is this what the Government really intend?

Absent either a positive requirement of dishonesty or some sort of broader defence, where a person reasonably believes that they are not infringing, this law could have a significant chilling effect on competition—so much for a Government who trumpet themselves as supporters of competition and opponents of unnecessary regulation.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, I shall be very brief. The beauty of Committee is that entirely opposing propositions can be put forward by the same person. It is only when we get to Report that we have to get serious by being absolutely clear about the propositions being put forward. I therefore do not intend to respond in great detail to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, who, I believe, was taking an argument out for a trot. Earlier in Committee, I previously talked about frightening the horses and I am afraid that we are back to horse analogies. It has been an entertaining trot in many respects.

The way that the argument was put together misunderstood what happens in court. It is about the adducing of evidence. It was reassuring that the judge listened to the arguments and evidence and felt as a result that he understood far more about the genesis of the design right. Of course, in a criminal court you add mitigation to all that. It is not worth suddenly locking up people as a result of being prosecuted for design infringement. If you do something reasonable in the eyes of a criminal court in such circumstances, you will be able to mitigate the offence, even though technically you may be guilty of it.

I am afraid that I do not accept the noble Lord’s argument. However, I have wanted to use the expression “a fortiori” for many years in Committee; if you have the ability to prosecute in a criminal court for an infringement of registered design, you should have that ability for unregistered design. If you have it for copyright, you should be able to prosecute for unregistered design. If you have it for trade marks, you should have it for unregistered design. All these intellectual property rights may be complex but they are a vital underpinning for our creators and our creative industries. I am unashamed in my wish for those creative industries to thrive in this country and for their intellectual property protection to be as solid as we can make it, without falling unduly into a monopoly situation, about which the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, is ever vigilant, I am glad to say.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, the noble Viscount needs to offer us some compelling reasons for the creation of a new criminal offence. It is undesirable in principle to create new criminal offences unless there is a clearly demonstrable need for them. Successive Governments over decades in this country have been promiscuous in the creation of new criminal offences. They have been trigger-happy in this matter. It makes them look as if they are being tough and it is quite popular in certain quarters, but it has not been very good for our national life or our culture. It tends to create a more pervasive culture of distrust, suspicion and fear within our society.

There are also a lot of practicalities to think about. If you have a criminal offence, you must commit policing resources. You are laying another burden on the courts. The police and the courts are already excessively burdened and their resources are diminishing. You must consider the capacity of the prisons, which are bursting. I hope that we will not have to anticipate many people being incarcerated in consequence of the noble Viscount’s measure but that is clearly what it points towards. I do not know what thought the noble Viscount has given to the cost of all this. We understand that the Government are intent on reducing the deficit but he is proposing here a measure that will have clear implications of additional public spending. I can quite understand why the measure is popular with small and medium-sized enterprises in the design field: the burden of the enforcement of rights will be transferred from civil action being taken by them where necessary to criminal prosecution by the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. It saves SMEs troublesome, tedious and possibly expensive activities. I can see why they like that. However, I am a bit surprised that the Minister has been willing to gratify them in this way.

14:45

I always think of the noble Viscount as a mild and kindly man, but here he is about to expose people to some draconian penalties. I do not know what the maximum fines would be for people found guilty of the offence that he is going to create, but I see that he plans to bang them up for up to 10 years. That seems uncharacteristically harsh. One would have thought that that scale of penalties would be more appropriate for major fraud and expropriation. As I have suggested in earlier proceedings on the Bill, a governing principle should be that we protect intellectual property no more than is necessary to encourage and reward innovation suitably. It goes too far to extend that protection by creating offences in the criminal world. I understand that there is a case for criminalisation in a situation in which a powerful corporation is deliberately and systematically trawling and appropriating the designs created by individual designers, sole traders, and small and medium-sized enterprises. There is inequality of power and arms here.

As my noble friend Lord Stevenson said and as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, also indicated earlier this afternoon, there are many situations in which there are definitional issues. There are penumbra and grey areas where it seems far from clear that we should be reclassifying behaviour that we consider wrong as criminal. The creation of this criminal offence is taking a sledgehammer to crack nuts of various sizes, which may not be the right thing to do.

The noble Viscount has much more to do to persuade the Committee of the case for creating a criminal offence. When he spoke earlier he made his case in terms of the desirability of simplification and presumably of consistency with the laws that apply in the fields of copyright and trade marks. As I also suggested earlier, simplification or consistency are not necessarily paramount virtues, not least in the field of intellectual property, which is highly differentiated and complex, and in which pragmatism and common sense are always required. He suggested that it would be helpful in the enforcement of rights but, as I have said, I am not clear that the state should take over the enforcement of the maintenance of their rights from individual designers and design companies and partnerships. The case has to be made more strongly.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

My Lords, my intention in contributing to my noble friend Lord Stevenson’s debate on whether Clause 13 should stand part is to take advantage of the opportunity to ask some very Scottish questions about the nature of this provision and the implications for the devolution settlement in Scotland. Before I do that, I encourage and cannot resist the temptation to engage in the more general debate that has been conducted so far, simply because of the curtailed response of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, to my noble friend’s opening remarks.

I have some significant experience of practice in the criminal courts. This was perhaps a long time ago, but I practised in the criminal courts at all levels in Scotland for the better part of 20 years before I became an elected politician. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, is right. One has to have a proper sense of perspective on how courts operate. The burden and onus of proof in criminal prosecution lie and will continue to lie with the prosecutor. Obviously these offences, although complicated and requiring some understanding of design and design rights that I do not have, will require the prosecutor to persuade the court that design rights have been infringed in the way set out in these provisions.

However, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, with respect—and, of course, when lawyers start talking to each other with respect, there is a sense among others that it is last thing they have for each other—that after 20 years of practising in part in criminal courts, I resist the temptation to describe convictions as technical. There is no such thing as a technical conviction. You break the law, you are convicted and you have, except with a very few limited exceptions, a criminal record thereafter. There is no such thing as a technical crime. For people who are convicted in the criminal courts, but not for lawyers who appear in them, these are life-changing events. The people who are furthest removed from this culture are those who are most affected by it, which is why jailing people for drink-driving has over time been the most effective use of jails for deterrence because that offence tends to be committed by people who would otherwise not be near a criminal court. I make that caveat. If we are using criminal sanctions in relation to commercial practices or commercial operations, that is criminal law impinging on people who are not normally around the criminal courts and who do not have the kind of relaxed attitude to them that some of us who have practised in them sometimes get.

The point my noble friend Lord Stevenson made was not about whether the courts would be able to deal with the issue of mitigation, which becomes relevant only after a conviction, because they are well capable of doing that; I have some experience. His point was about whether a by-product of criminalising this sort of behaviour would be the fear of the stigma of criminal proceedings. The stigma of criminal proceedings can for some people be as significant as criminal conviction. We are used to seeing in the media that people are arrested, bailed, brought back in, charged, bailed and then, sometimes months later, told that they are not to be prosecuted. We see that pattern of behaviour regularly now because of the nature of some of the public investigations that are going on as a consequence of the interaction of the police, newspapers and other organs of our society, including the BBC. We see that, and we see, from interviews that people who are savvy enough to be able to move in the media give, the life-changing effect that it can have on people.

My noble friend’s concern is that the stigma of criminal proceedings, the risk of a criminal record and the possibility of a quite swingeing sentence—these crimes can carry up to 10 years’ imprisonment—will affect the way in which businesses conduct themselves. If the effect is that they become risk-averse in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and those who overtly support the sparing use of criminal prosecutions, hope, their judgment becomes more acute and they are less likely to take the risk of doing something that they instinctively know is wrong, that will be a good thing. However, the risk-aversion results in the stifling of innovation because lawyers tell people who are making management decisions that they are running a personal and much greater risk with their liberty and reputation than they would have been before the Bill became an Act of Parliament. Those people might say, “It’s fine if the business has some risk of a civil penalty, we will make a judgment here and go with innovation as opposed to the conservative choice of not touching this product”. However, if they say, “It’s my head that’s on the line”—that is, to some degree, what the Government are trying to do—“It’s my personal reputation that is on the line, and it may surface in the criminal courts”, that may stifle innovation. If the balance goes the wrong way, this will not be a correct thing to do.

There is one more important issue here to which we need to give some consideration when we agree to criminalise behaviour. It is that the rich and the powerful will threaten or imply the possibility of criminal prosecution. Those of us who have been involved in debates and the consideration of legislation in your Lordships’ House over the past couple of years know about the concept of chilling effect. We were dogged in this country, particularly in England and in the courts, because London was the defamation capital of Europe. The rich and powerful threatened court proceedings and had a chilling effect in stifling free speech, publications, scientific research and other areas. There is no question that if we add this possibility of prosecution to what powerful people can threaten or imply then we run the risk that they will again deploy that threat which stifles innovation.

I have not made up my mind whether adding criminal prosecution to this armoury is a good thing. There are others in our debates who know much more about the way this area of commerce operates. I have some sympathy for people, particularly in the fashion industry, whose designs come and go. If something else is not added to this then they must go through the same processes as they do presently. Civil actions are of no use to them because the fashion season moves on and the damage is done. Within minutes of unveiling their dresses or jackets, they appear almost exactly the same in somebody else’s cut-price window. I have not made up my mind about this area but there are serious considerations about whether we should extend the criminal law in this way. It would be interesting to hear what the Minister has to say about these arguments and where the Government think the balance will lie once the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament. How do the Government intend to ensure that that balance stays there and is not exploited by others?

Let me finish by asking my Scottish questions. There is a well established convention now—thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, and what has become known as the Sewel Motion—that we will not legislate on matters that are devolved to the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly or Northern Ireland Assembly without their consent. The general answer to this is that international property law is not devolved. I welcome that, and as a unionist celebrate that there are still important parts of commercial life that we control on a UK basis. I believe in the union and we should make more about what we do to improve the opportunities for commercial advantage in Scotland when we can by using UK powers. I suggested at Second Reading that I would have liked the Government to have made more of a presence about what was being done in this area of law in Scotland, so that Scottish people knew the relevance of this Parliament and this area of law in their lives, particularly in the present circumstances. That has not been done and I regret that. I wish it had.

In the detail of this particular legislation, there is a provision on page 13 of the Bill for new Section 35ZD—we must find some better way of numbering sections so we do not get these ridiculous references. It introduces new Section 35ZA, “forfeiture of Scotland”, which essentially amends the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. That legislation predates the Scottish Parliament, which started in 1999, but all amendments to that legislation since then have been in the area of devolved law. Criminal procedure in Scotland is devolved. We are indirectly, if not directly, amending an area of devolved law in Scotland. I think that requires a Sewel Motion. It requires the consent of the Scottish Parliament. I am happy to be corrected on that, but it seems to me that it does. If it does, that implies, as far as I am concerned, that there has been some communication between the Government and the Scottish Government on the subject of a Motion being laid by the Scottish Government and passed by the Scottish Parliament, where the SNP has a majority. Therefore, there will have been some discussions on that matter.

14:59

Inevitably, those discussions will touch on a number of issues such as the resource implications of the Scottish law being changed in this way. Those resource implications will impact in turn on local authority resources, given that trading standards fall under local authority jurisdiction in Scotland. That area of public life in Scotland is facing reduced resources, as are all areas of public life across the United Kingdom. What are the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament’s expectation of these implications? How will they manage them? What will this mean for the prosecuting authorities and their ability to understand this complex area of law? What training will be provided for those who have to understand this complex area of law? Listening to this debate for a short time this afternoon and having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the Minister, with their expertise, and my noble friend Lord Stevenson, who has developed expertise in this area, I can see that this is a very complicated area of law. It is not clear whether a particular item will infringe somebody else’s design rights on another item. What assessment has been made of how many prosecutions there will be? We all hope that they will be brought sparingly as we hope that the measure will have the effect we want it to have—namely, of reducing infringements.

I should have given the Minister notice of these questions but I did refer to them in my Second Reading speech when I said that I was interested in this area. His officials can relax as I do not expect him to respond to all these questions immediately, but I would like to know the answers in due course. I give him prior warning that if this matter requires a Sewel Motion and it goes to the Scottish Parliament and its committees, these are just the sort of questions that people will ask. Therefore, it would be good to know what the answers are. I could probably add a list of other things that Members of the Scottish Parliament might be interested in, but they can do that for themselves.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, Clause 13 will introduce a criminal offence for the deliberate copying of a UK or EU registered design. This should help to reduce the scale of unlawful design copying in the UK while increasing the level of protection that is available for holders of registered designs. The Government believe that they have achieved a fine balance in the substance of the clause to ensure that the criminal offence targets only those people who deliberately steal someone else’s ideas and creativity. As we have already discussed today, there are a number of reasons why this clause applies only to registered designs, and this decision forms part of the fine balance of protection that it achieves.

The focus of the offence being on registered designs rather than unregistered designs also reflects the majority of responses to the designs consultation. As with other legislative changes, the Government plan to evaluate the impact of the change within five years of implementation. The offence gives registered designs the same level of protection as copyright and trade marks, creating a coherent approach to enforcement and protection. It also brings design rights in the UK to a level with other European design leaders such as Denmark, which noble Lords will know is noted for design in its furniture manufacturing industry, as well as Italy and Germany.

Criminal sanctions already exist in these countries and are considered necessary as a deterrent and to punish those who deliberately copy for commercial gain. For example, in Germany in 2011, a total of 12 trials were held concerning a criminal charge based on design copying. In three of the cases, the charges were dropped during the trial. In eight out of the nine cases in which a sentence was passed, the court issued a fine. In one case, a prison sentence of nine months to one year was imposed. These figures show clearly that the offence is brought forward only selectively, but that a need for the sanction does exist. This may help to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, in his concerns over the criminal sanctions. He alluded to the fact that they might be a little too draconian.

On the same subject, the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, raised the issue of the costs to this country. In their impact assessment, the Government have estimated a cost of £8.18 million over the course of 10 years. This figure was arrived at by estimating the costs to the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service, and potential legal aid costs. However, it is difficult to estimate the benefit of the offence to business. The organisation Anti Copying in Design has estimated that the cost of infringement to the design industry is around 5% of the total value of design to the UK economy. Based on the most recent estimates from NESTA of £15.5 billion as the value of design investment in the UK, this equates to an annual cost of infringement of £0.775 billion.

In relation to costs, the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, also asked what the provisions are for maximum penalties. As the noble Lord may be aware, the Ministry of Justice is currently bringing Sections 85 to 87 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 into force. These provisions will increase the fines for all intellectual property related offences in the magistrates’ courts in England and Wales. This work needs to be allowed time to be implemented before further increases in penalties can be considered.

The noble Lord also asked a plain question: can the justice system cope with this? We do not believe that the offence will create a burden on enforcement agencies. Trading standards departments have the resources to pursue only a certain number of intellectual property cases each year. As a discretionary power, it will be up to each department to balance the importance of pursuing a design case against the other kinds of intellectual property crime in which it is interested. This is in keeping with many other statutory provisions under which local authorities have no duty to enforce, but can and frequently do, instruct trading standards departments to take action. The Crown Prosecution Service will treat any new offence with the same approach it does for the other forms of intellectual property, using its usual discretion and margin of appreciation, including such factors as evidential sufficiency and the public interest in pursuing a conviction.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Perhaps the noble Viscount will allow me to intervene. Does the figure of £8.18 million over 10 years include the costs to local government as well as to central government; namely, the costs of trading standards officers? Whether or not it does, the public expenditure cost of £8.18 million that is already cited is a multiple many times over that of the expected cost of infringement per annum. We are going to spend more on enforcement than we will lose on the costs of infringement. On the face of it, that does not seem to be good value for the public purse or for the economy.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, the noble Lord has cited certain figures and I think it would be wise for me to give him a fuller answer than I have before me. Although I would say this, I believe that our arguments are robust. However, I will follow up his points and write to him.

Clause 13 specifies that various conditions must apply in prosecuting the offence. In particular, it must be established that the person accused of the offence should, first, have copied a registered design; secondly, knew that the design they copied was a registered design; and thirdly, copied the design without the consent of the registered design holder. Under the clause, it is also an offence knowingly to use a copied design in the course of business activities in order to profit from that copying. This would include acts such as marketing, exporting, using or stocking the design in the course of business. A prosecution will be successful only if the evidence is sufficient to satisfy the criminal legal burden of proof; that of being “beyond all reasonable doubt”. This is a high standard to achieve and will help to ensure that the offence does not affect innovation or legitimate and competitive risk-taking within business. The offence will not apply if the defendant can show reasonable grounds for believing that the design in question was invalid or where the person charged with the offence shows that there was no infringement of the registered design.

The clause provides that a trial may be on summary trial in a magistrates’ court or trial on indictment in a Crown Court. Of course, this will depend on the severity of the case. In a magistrates’ court, conviction could result in a term of imprisonment of up to six months in England and Wales and Northern Ireland and 12 months in Scotland, or a fine up to the statutory maximum, or both. In the Crown Court, conviction on indictment could result in imprisonment for up to 10 years, or to a fine, or both. The offence in this clause will be applicable only to designs registered prior to infringement, not to those registered after the copying has taken place. Under the clause, trading standards departments will have the power to enforce registered design copying, as they do now for trademark and copyright offences. They will also have powers of forfeiture.

Noble Lords raised a number of points. The noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Browne, raised the issue of the “chilling effect” of criminal sanctions. I reiterate that the clause is not intended to have a chilling effect on innovation or legitimate and competitive risk-taking within business. This is something that we were very much mindful of during the drafting of the offence as our policy intention was to target only those people who deliberately use somebody else’s ideas and creativity. Further, the offence depends on the infringing product having been made “exactly or substantially” to the registered design, and this should catch only those who set out to copy a registered design, not those who make distinguishable follow-on designs. This is why the offence requires the defendant to have known or have reason to believe that the design he or she copied was registered by someone else. Furthermore, this will have to be shown to the criminal standard of proof of “beyond all reasonable doubt”, which is an exceptionally high standard for prosecutors to meet in court.

As I mentioned earlier, this chilling effect has not been seen in Germany and the assertion of a chilling effect does not appear to be borne out by the experience of other jurisdictions that retain a criminal sanction for design copying. Germany is renowned for having a highly effective design system and it retains both civil and criminal sanctions. Although it is difficult to draw direct causality between Germany’s use of criminal sanctions and its successful system, we know that Germany has 10 times as many registered designs as the UK and it is unlikely that the criminal sanction has had an adverse effect on the number of registered designs or on the strong innovation performance of German SMEs, which is so evident to us all.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked whether it was fair to prosecute those who unknowingly stock or sell copied designs and cited the examples of Apple and Samsung. The innocent use of a copied design in the course of business would not be caught by the offence; for example, a retailer would be protected if a third party had manufactured the copies and sold them to the retailer as their own. In this case, the retailer would not be acting with the knowledge that the design was a copy and would not be found guilty of committing the offence. The activities that constitute using a design under the offence reflect the definition for “use of a design” contained in Section 7 of the Registered Designs Act 1949. Innocent acts are protected, therefore, under the clause because it contains the test of,

“knowing, or having reason to believe”,

that a design is copied.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I am most grateful to the Minister and apologise for intervening on him again. I just wonder whether the chilling effect may not work in another sense. As the Minister says, there is no evidence from the German experience that the existence of criminal sanctions has had any chilling effect on the registration of designs. But what evidence does he have to reassure us that people who might be uncertain as to whether the design that they wish to develop was so close to another design that it could be proved in court to be sufficiently similar to incur a penalty, they would therefore decide not to bother? Given the difficulties of definition in this field, is it not possible that the chilling effect may be to deter innovation and enterprise on the part of people who are worried that they would be moving too close to a design that was already registered?

15:15

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

It is not the case that that would never happen but overall it may be of some reassurance to the noble Lord that much consultation has taken place on this. If there were clear indications that the examples he gave were to lead to a chilling effect, that would certainly have arisen during consultation. However, the noble Lord made a fair point and we will review the consultation. I will write to the noble Lord again if we can furnish him with some extra, new information. It is not the Government’s intention to criminalise businesses that use products based on copied designs incidentally in the course of their business but do not profit from any trade in those particular products.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised the issue of applying Bugs Bunny to various products and how the law would work. This is probably the first time that anybody has said that Bugs Bunny is a complex issue, but he is and it would be best if I wrote to the noble Lord on the details of that particular point. The noble Lord also asked why it is a proposed offence to copy “exactly or substantially”. It is our intention that very minor modifications—possibly imperceptible ones—should not excuse deliberate copying and the sanctions that would follow. The noble Lord asked if the offence was “appropriate and proportionate”—I think he used those words. We recognise the concerns about proportionality and that is why the defence has been carefully crafted. We do not believe that it will lead to countless people being placed in custody, as can be seen by my previous references to Germany in this particular debate.

In fear of pouring fuel on the fire of the points made on the last amendment by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, making comparisons between unregistered designs and copyright and its criminalisation, I will reiterate our position on this. A comparison to copyrighted material, which is also unregistered but attracts criminal sanctions, is unhelpful because the protection for copyright lasts 70 years plus the lifetime of the author. This makes it unlikely that copyright will have expired, and infringement is therefore much more likely to be the result of copying. The shorter period of protection for unregistered design, together with the difficulty of knowing when those design rights came into existence—a point that I made earlier—means that it is more difficult for third parties to be sure they are not infringing. The introduction of criminal sanctions for unregistered rights could lead to a negative effect on business and innovation.

Furthermore, copyright protection is denied to the shape and configuration of industrial designs by Section 51 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Applying criminal sanctions to an unregistered design right would criminalise some copying that would not be caught under the law of copyright. I am sure that the noble Lord will have some further points to make on this matter but I thought it wise to raise the subject again.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked whether the issue of criminalisation was too complicated for magistrates and juries. Provided that it is limited to registered designs, we believe that the criminal courts can decide whether a design has been copied exactly or substantially. Similar issues arise in copyright, as the noble Lord will be aware. The noble Lord also asked why new Section 35ZA includes community designs and asked whether this would cover designs from the European Union. It does, because EU designs have effective rights here in the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked whether it is right that the use of a copied design is caught by the provision. The activities which constitute using a design under the offence reflect the definition for use of design contained in Section 7 of the Registered Designs Act 1949. Innocent acts are protected under the clause because it contains the test of knowing, or having reason to believe, that a design is copied.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, was particularly concerned about those he described as “rich and powerful people” using the threat of criminal sanctions against small businesses. That is a fair point, but I draw on the UK’s experience in relation to other intellectual property rights, which have also been retrospectively subject to criminal sanctions. Although there is no quantitative evidence, the introduction of criminal sanctions for piracy and counterfeiting provides no indication of a chilling effect on creativity, copyright or brand development—trade marks—in the UK. They are generally acknowledged to be in robust health, with the number of trade mark applications at a historic high according to unpublished figures from the Intellectual Property Office.

Finally, I think it would be useful to provide a further response to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. He asked how the Government defend setting up more criminal offences. I certainly do not propose to start discussing the wider criminal justice system today—I hope the noble Lord will forgive me for that—but the important point is that there are compelling reasons why we believe this new sanction is right, which I trust I have set out in my response.

I reiterate to the Committee that we believe it is right that deliberate, wide-eyed copying of registered designs is punished.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

Before the Minister concludes, will he remember Scotland? At this stage, I only seek an answer about whether this requires a Sewel Motion. All the consequential questions would arise if it does not.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord is quite right. I think it is best if I write to him on a number of the points that he has raised about Scotland. I could say something now, but I think a full answer is required. The noble Lord raised a number of questions, and we should give a holistic response.

The Government have sought to create a balance between protecting the rights of design owners and ensuring that innovation is not restricted. We believe that in this clause we have drawn the right balance. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on this topic, in particular my noble friends Lord Howarth and Lord Browne. Between us, including one or two of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, we have raised a sufficiently significant question about the desirability of this step being taken by the Government for us to think again before we return to this on Report. On the one hand, there is the question about whether the right approach to protecting the desirable end of making sure that those who design are able to proceed to the manufacture and exploitation of their designs without being ripped off by others is by some simplification of the overall system that might arrive at a better system or whether the criminalisation element will provide the necessary bulwark.

The argument is finely balanced. My noble friend Lord Browne said that he is uncertain about which is the right way, and I join him in that. I was not taking horses out for a trot on this point. I was, to change the metaphor, casting a fly on the water and seeing what would come up. I went fishing last weekend, which is why it is in my mind. I caught myself with my own fly and fell in, which was not a very successful outcome, but I was struck by the efforts of those with rods make to attract unwilling objects, such as fish, to come to the surface and bite the fly. You have to be careful what you are casting for sometimes, and my unease is that the simplicity of the central point—whether to introduce criminal sanctions—is becoming obscured by the complications of what might emerge if it happens. There is the question of the cost of the engagement of the police, trading standards and prisons and the impact on public spending, which my noble friend Lord Howarth raised. My noble friend Lord Browne was supportive in the sense that the criminal courts can easily take this on, as they have taken on many other things that Parliament has opined should be criminalised in the past several hundred years. On the other hand, it is a real change—from a specialist court dealing with well rehearsed topics, with practitioners who are knowledgeable in this area, to the hurly-burly of a magistrates’ court, or a sheriff’s court in Scotland, and then coming up through the system.

This is all quite a big step and I do not feel that the arguments have been as well marshalled as they could have been. The Minister brought forward some evidence but there may be more in his letters. I am looking forward to having many of those as we proceed through this, particularly my one on Bugs Bunny, which I can hardly wait for as the excitement is so intense. Germany is not necessarily the right model for this. We would have been happier if we could have seen more evidence from right across the design community. It is not a small community—we know the numbers, and there are lots of them. The danger in consultations of the type the IPO has carried out is that you hear from those who shout the loudest but do not hear from those who are going to have to make the thing work when the dust is settled. With those reservations in mind, we might have to return to this on Report.

Clause 13 agreed.

Amendment 24 not moved.

Amendment 24A

Moved by

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

24A: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause—
Part 1ACopyrightExploitation of design derived from artistic work
(1) The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 is amended as follows.
(2) In Schedule 1 (copyright: transitional provisions and savings), omit paragraph 6.”

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I hope to be able to deal with this very briefly, as I shall explain. The purpose of the amendment, along with the amendment grouped with it, is to try to make sure that artistic works prepared before 1 June 1957 will still be protected despite the repeal of Section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. I remind the Committee that we discussed this at some length during the passage of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill.

I have learnt that the group of manufacturers who are concerned about this have a meeting set up with the IPO for a week today. It was suggested to me—and I have suggested it in turn to my noble friend and given notice to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson—that perhaps it would be better to wait to see whether the outcome of that consultation meets the concerns of those companies. If it does not, and the issue turns out to be serious, we can, of course, return to this matter on Report. On the assumption that my noble friend will share my anxiety to let that meeting proceed first, I hope that he will be able to respond with equal brevity. I beg to move.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I rise to speak very briefly. One has a pleasant sense of déjà vu when the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, tables an amendment in relation to works that he is careful to label as “artistic” created before 1957. However, he then spoke of a group of manufacturers who are shortly to meet the Intellectual Property Office. I am a little puzzled about the relationship of artistic property to the activities of manufacturers. If the noble Lord were able to clarify quite what the relevance of one is to the other, I would find that helpful.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

I apologise if through brevity I omitted some obviously important facts. We are dealing with iconic pieces of design, many of which were created in what is known as the Bauhaus period. These would include such things as the Corbusier chaise, the Wagenfeld lamp and what we frequently refer to as the Eames lounge chair. They are indisputably works of fine art and are protected by copyright throughout the European Union. The manufacturers want to be sure that they will continue to be protected in the UK.

15:30

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that clarification. Given that clarification, I have to say that I find myself profoundly opposed to what it is that I think he is seeking to achieve. While of course it is right that designers from the Bauhaus stable—Wagenfeld, Corbusier or Eames, although he was not from the Bauhaus—deserve to be recognised and to enjoy the protection of their intellectual property for a reasonable length of time, we are talking about a period that goes back to before 1957, half a century ago. I cannot see how it can be in the public interest that a monopoly should continue to be held in those designs. That is not least because no protection is being given to the designers themselves. The design rights have been sold on and inherited. Surely it must be desirable to limit the term of monopoly so that more people are able to have the benefit of iconic artefacts created according to these very beautiful and important designs at reasonable prices. The protectionism that the noble Lord is seeking to perpetuate through his amendment is not in the interests of our society, of our culture or, indeed, of our economy.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I turn now to Amendments 24A and 24B. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Jenkin for the constructive spirit in which he has offered them and indeed that he has agreed to wait for the results of the meeting to which he alluded. These amendments are related to the repeal of Section 52 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 through the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013. For the benefit of the Committee, and indeed of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, I ask noble Lords to let me summarise briefly the reasons for the change.

The Government wish to ensure that all categories of artistic work enjoy the full term of copyright protection; that is, the life of the creator plus 70 years. Some artistic works that were industrially produced had 25 years’ protection. Once the repeal comes into force, which will take place after the consultation on the timing of the repeal and publication of a new impact assessment, these works will have the same term of protection. If a particular type of table is an artistic work protected by copyright, one will not be able to make a physical replica or reproduce an image of that table in a book without permission. Similarly, one will need the rights owner’s consent to make wallpaper that reproduced an artistic work, such as a print. Designers and companies that own rights in classic design furniture have been supportive of this change. As my noble friend Lord Jenkin said, next week my officials are meeting representatives of one such company as part of the Government’s ongoing dialogue with interested parties. We shall see what comes of that.

I am grateful that my noble friend Lord Jenkin continues to pay such close attention to the details of this change and for the intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, but I am not convinced that any further changes are necessary or desirable until the consultation has been completed.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend. Perhaps I may respond very briefly to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. A month or two ago I was approached by, as it happens, a British company which complained bitterly about Section 52 extending the period from 25 years to life plus 70 years. I took the matter up with my right honourable friend and discussed it with one or two other people. They said, “Ha ha. Yes, of course. They use nothing but Chinese-manufactured fakes. They are simply importing imitations of these hugely important artistic designs. Of course they are cross about it because it is their business”. The fact is that that company has been behaving rather disreputably. The repeal of Section 52 is intended to give the designs the protection that my noble friend has indicated is the intention of the Government. We will have to have this debate later. In the mean time, I am grateful for what the Minister said and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 24A withdrawn.

Amendment 24B not moved.

Clause 14 : Infringement: marking product with internet link

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley)]

My Lords, Amendments 25 and 25ZA are grouped together. I am advised by the Public Bill Office that Amendment 25ZA is a duplicate and has been printed in error, so I will not be calling that.

Amendment 25

Moved by

[Lord Clement-Jones]

25: Clause 14, page 15, leave out lines 15 and 16 and insert—
“(b) which directly displays clearly the product and its complete trade designation and associates the product with the number of the patent or patents which relate to it”

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, I am indebted to the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys for having drawn my attention to the issues on Clause 14. Generally, the institute welcomes this proposal, but considers that it needs to be tightened up. If a product has a patent number or patent application number on it, it is easy for any third party to identify the patent or application and make any such subsequent inquiry as it needs to. If, however, all that is marked on the product is an internet link, it could turn out to be a considerable job even to identify the patent or application. The internet link, for instance, could be to the home page of a company and the patent number could then be buried deep in the sublevels of the internet site. Alternatively, the link could be to a page where all a company’s patents and applications are listed, but in an unsearchable format. This proposal could provide a way for a company to conceal the information that is supposed to be present on the product. To ensure that the internet link provides the required information directly, I hope that the Minister will see the virtues of this amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I know that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and I doubt that the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, is copyright-protected. However, it would not be very good if, having found the same source, I repeated exactly the same words. We share the sentiments of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. We think that the government proposal is good but, in this age of the internet, it could be made even more effective. On those grounds, we support this amendment and look forward to the ministerial response.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, Amendment 25 would place a requirement on businesses to provide the complete trade designation of the product, alongside the product’s associated patent numbers, on their websites. It is helpful that my noble friend has raised this issue, as it will allow me to set out some more information about how the Government are expecting the marking of products with the web address to work.

The Bill aims to reduce burdens on patent holders by modernising the ways in which they can provide public notice of their patent rights. Allowing patent owners to mark their patented product with a web address will lead to cost savings for business while making it easier for the public to access up-to-date patent information. Under current UK legislation if, in the event that a patent is infringed, a patent holder wishes to be in with the best chance of being awarded damages or other financial remedies, it must mark its product with the word “patent” or “patented”, together with the number of the patent. It is, therefore, in a patent holder’s interest to ensure that it is straightforward for the public to ascertain which patent or patents apply to a particular product. Doing so will ensure that the public is put on notice about the patent rights, making others think twice before infringing that patent.

Clause 14 requires that, if an internet link is used, it must direct the reader to a web page which clearly associates the product with the number of the patent concerned, as is the case under United States patent law. This means that providing an internet link to the home page of a company website will not suffice unless on that home page there is a clear association between the product and the relevant patent number. It also means that the product must be clearly identified and associated with the relevant patent.

Just to be frivolous, I suspect that noble Lords’ mobile phones are switched off; I hope that they are. However, if you were to take them apart you may find—if the manufacturer operates in the United States—a website address with the patent details is provided. I particularly noted that it appears on my battery. Many hundreds of patents are likely to be associated with a single mobile phone, and listing them on a web page rather than on the mobile phone itself is therefore far easier for the manufacturer.

Amendment 25 would add an additional requirement that the web page must provide the “complete trade designation” of the product. I understand this to mean an identification of the exact product concerned, including, for example, any relevant model numbers and variants that exist. This is entirely the intention of the clause, which I believe already caters for this. The clause requires the provision of a web page address that,

“clearly associates the product with the number of the patent”.

The patent holder must therefore clearly identify the product and which patents apply to it. Currently, the Bill allows businesses to do this in a manner that best suits their circumstances to avoid placing an undue burden on business. Again, I remind noble Lords that it is in the patent holder’s interest to ensure that clear information is provided that makes it easy for the public to ascertain which patent or patents apply to a particular product. Doing so will ensure that they can benefit from the maximum protection available during any legal proceedings. In light of this, I ask that the noble Lord withdraws the amendment.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that useful clarification. I am sure that it will be carefully noted by all those concerned. Given that it is the patent agents and patent lawyers who are heavily involved in this field, he will appreciate that their concerns are worth taking seriously. However, I take my noble friend’s clarification seriously, too, and I am grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 25 withdrawn.

Clause 14 agreed.

Clause 15 : Opinions service

Amendment 25A

Moved by

[Lord Clement-Jones]

25A: Clause 15, page 15, line 28, leave out subsection (4)

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, I am afraid that this is a much more serious issue and I dare say that my noble friend is already aware of the strong concerns about elements of the clause that have been expressed not only by the patent agents but by the Law Society in a recent briefing paper.

In 2012, the Intellectual Property Office consulted on an amendment to the opinions service. That was responded to by a number of professional bodies. The CIPA agreed that the opinions service could be usefully expanded in some respects but was firmly opposed to the non-binding opinions service being turned into a binding service in relation to the existence of the patentee’s patent. Currently, the opinions service can give rise to four non-binding opinions: first, where the patent is valid; secondly, if the patent is invalid for lack of novelty or obviousness; thirdly, if the patent is infringed; and, fourthly, if the patent is not infringed. The Bill is proposing that one, and only one, of those four opinions should become something more than a non-binding opinion, while the other three retain their non-binding status.

The Bill proposes at subsection (4) to introduce into Section 73 of the Patents Act 1977 a power for the comptroller to revoke patents of his own motion when an opinion is given that the patent lacks novelty or is obvious. It is of concern that this proposal has not been fully thought through and I ask noble Lords to reconsider whether it should be kept in the Bill. The opinions service is very useful. It provides a low-cost forum for obtaining a first view as to the validity or infringement of a patent. The fact is that it is an opinions service, and a non-binding one, meaning that a certain approach is taken to such proceedings and costs are kept low. Moreover, the opinions are a useful commercial tool because the requester and the patentee can enter into negotiations regarding the patent. However, if the patentee knows that the opinion could lead to revocation of the patent, it is unlikely that any negotiations will be carried out on the same basis and it is less likely that settlement will be reached.

15:45

The proposal in the Bill will turn requests for limited requests for validity opinions into something quite different and deprive the opinion service of its present advantages. One of the advantages of the opinion service is that it takes place on paper, with opinions being given within 12 weeks. However, the patentee is given only a few weeks in which to file comments. Where the patentee is overseas or there are language barriers, then such a short period is difficult. This is manageable where there is no further impact from the opinion. However, where there could be a knock-on to the validity of the patent, this becomes more drastic and potentially significantly more expensive.

Opinions on validity are usually sought by third parties, so the patentee is not a party. If there is a hearing, the patentee has no opportunity to present oral argument, nor does the patentee have the right to challenge evidence by cross-examination. As we discussed earlier with regard to design rights, the opinion service is not a judicial proceeding and there is no right of appeal to the court. In fact, Section 74A makes it clear that the patentee has no right of appeal against the opinion given. Although the patentee has a right to seek a review under Section 74B, the grounds for review are limited to whether the opinion was wrongly concluded. This falls short of being a proper appeal, and any appeal under Section 97 is similarly limited. Paragraph 22 of the IPO response noted:

“Fortunately the number of reviews and appeals has been small”.

If the outcome of an opinion has the potential to impact the patent, this number is likely to rise. This will be difficult for SMEs who will now have to file Form 2 and pay the fee as well as seek expensive legal help on how to deal with the,

“high hurdle for overturning a patent opinion that was established in one of only two review proceedings to go on appeal”.

In the amendment to the opinion service proposed in the Bill, it appears that the patentee will be placed in the position of having to overturn the presumption that the patent is invalid. Thus, the normal burden in revocation proceedings will be reversed. Moreover, the person requesting the opinion will, in effect, have placed a large financial burden on the patentee to defend his patent even though the requester has to pay only the fee for an opinion, which is comparatively low.

It is also not clear that the patentee will have recourse to a proper judicial procedure. It is not clear from the Bill or from the notes accompanying the Bill that the patentee will have a right to a full hearing on the merits. It is of particular note that neither the IPO nor the patentee will be able to cross-examine the requester’s witnesses or experts during the opinion procedure and nor would such opportunity be available during any subsequent Section 73 proceedings. It is difficult to see how this latter would be possible in what will essentially be ex parte proceedings. I shall not deal with the clarity of the invalidity because that will be dealt with by the subsequent amendment.

I wonder whether the IPO has considered whether the proposal is TRIPS- compliant. Is the patentee afforded the necessary two levels of hearing? I further wonder whether the proposal in the Bill is future-proofed. It is likely that the unitary patent will come into effect in due course. Can the IPO give opinions on unitary patents? If it can, will it not be able to revoke a unitary patent? Surely exclusive jurisdiction for the unitary patent rests with the unified patent court. It seems odd to have a provision which will apply to some, but not all, patents effective in the UK.

I recognise that the IPO has a fundamental role as the regulator of the patent register. However, I do not see that the IPO has an obligation to clear the register of invalid patents. It is against its financial interest to do so. It does not do this for all the many patents on the register for which opinions are not requested. Why should it do it for patents on which opinions are requested? This is discriminatory and not a function assigned to the IPO by any legislation.

I recognise that the IPO also offers value-added services, such as assistance for private applicants, mediation services and opinion services. When offering such services, the IPO has to keep them entirely separate from its regulatory function. It must be careful about the advice it offers, and it has to be careful not to be both judge and jury. In offering value-added services, the IPO has to guard against the breakdown of the notional wall between, for example, a non-binding opinion service and the regulatory function. Notwithstanding the IPO’s comments in the response, this proposal breaches that wall.

If the patent is now to be put at risk by the opinion service, then all patentees must respond when invited to do so. The patentee will have to treat opinion service proceedings at the same level as patent revocation proceedings, thereby finding and submitting full evidence and opinions on why the requester is wrong. Although, as the IPO has noted, many already do this, that is not the case for all patentees—note especially my earlier comments on overseas patentees with language barriers. It then also becomes important that the patentee should have a greater right of redress when it does not agree with the opinion given. That would mean changing the procedure so that the patentee could appeal, but that is not part of the Bill’s proposals.

Allowing there to be legal consequences to the opinion, albeit after further proceedings, changes the nature of the opinion service and the costs for both parties, yet there is no provision for cost recovery. This also opens up possibilities for abuse. We have talked about the imbalance between parties in other contexts. Here, a rich party could target all the patents of an SME so as to remove both good and bad patents in an SME’s portfolio by requesting opinions on all of them. That would be at little cost to the requester but would require significant cost from the SME to defend all its patents. Even if the comptroller is to begin fresh proceedings under Section 73, there will be a perception, whatever the response to the consultation says on this topic, that the non-binding opinion would be a decision that the patentee had to overcome, as opposed to the IPO acting as an independent and impartial tribunal, as required by part 1 of Article 6 of the human rights convention.

A further point needs to be considered. Amendments made under Section 73 are not advertised prior to acceptance and there is no procedure for a third party to intervene. While that may not be an issue for the other situations under Section 73, in this case, there is clearly a third party with an interest, even if it has chosen not to file for revocation. Depending on the amendments accepted, the IPO may have invented a procedure that negates the value of the opinion already given and undermines the decisions and settlements formed on the basis of it. The third party may then find that its further opinion on non-infringement no longer held water and it had to start that process all over again.

I understand the IPO’s concern that, should its value-added services give an opinion, whether binding or not, that a patent is not valid, then it might seem strange that that patent remains on the register. However, there are many reasons for a non-binding opinion to be sought and many reasons why the patentee may not take part in those proceedings or only take part to a limited level. If it is important to the applicant for the validity opinion or to a third party that the patent be revoked, then IPO inter partes proceedings are available under Section 72. Where the applicant does not wish to pursue those, the IPO can step in and take them over. Section 72 proceedings are judicial proceedings where there is a full exchange of evidence, disclosure, cross-examination and oral hearing. The proposed subsection potentially turns the opinion service into a cheap form of revocation proceedings and this will debase the value of the opinion service. These are formidable arguments against that subsection and I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, although we come at this matter from a slightly different angle in trying to amend the clause to bring out a particular point, our intention is very similar to that of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. The points I would make on the narrowness of our amendment would rather duplicate what he is doing. It is better to simply say that we associate ourselves with what he said. I agree with what he is trying to do here to unpick a wrong turning proposed by the IPO. Where we are in terms of opinions on patents is well respected, understood and supported across the industry. To add this additional function, or change one of the existing pillars of the operation, would in fact change all the natures of the way it operates and is not to the benefit of where we are. With that, I support the amendment.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, Amendments 25A and 25B relate to the patent opinions service. Amendment 25A, tabled by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, seeks to remove the power that will allow the Intellectual Property Office to initiate revocation proceedings where an opinion concludes that the patent is invalid. Amendment 25B, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Young of Norwood Green, seeks to insert the word “clearly” into the clause so that revocation will be initiated only when novelty or inventive step is clearly not satisfied.

Clause 15 allows a limited extension of the IPO’s existing powers to initiate revocation proceedings. It will help in particular SMEs and lone inventors who may simply be unable to afford to bring revocation action themselves. More broadly, it will be in the public interest to allow the IPO to seek the removal of certain invalid patents from the patents register. I reassure noble Lords that the IPO will only initiate such proceedings in clear-cut cases—where there is no reasonable argument to be made that the invention is new or not an obvious replacement of what has gone before. However, in those cases which are not clear cut there will be no revocation action.

I also wish to clarify that initiation of action will not always result in revocation. The patentee can submit observations that may demonstrate that his patent is valid. Alternatively, amendment may reduce the monopoly afforded by the granted claim. The patent holder will also be able to appeal any decision to revoke to the courts. The Explanatory Notes accompanying the Bill make it clear that the power to revoke will be exercised only in the most clear cut of cases. Therefore, I do not feel it is necessary to insert the word “clearly” into the legislation itself, as suggested by noble Lords in Amendment 25B.

Inserting the word “clearly” into the legislation may also lead to argument about what that word means, thus adding an unnecessary further strand to the dispute. For example, if the patent holder disagrees with the revocation and appeals to the courts, the court should not have to decide whether a patent is “clearly invalid” but should instead be free to decide the core question of whether the patent is or is not valid. The IPO is already able to seek revocation of a patent under certain circumstances. Experience shows that its officers would be well placed to assess whether revocation proceedings should be initiated following an opinion that concludes that a patent is clearly invalid.

Before answering a number of questions, I will finish by sharing with you the story of one SME which responded to the consultation in support of the government position. Shortly after it was set up, this SME became aware of a competitor’s patent for a similar product to that which it intended to sell. The SME requested an opinion on the patent, which concluded that the competitor’s patent was invalid. However, despite this alleged invalidity, the competitor continued to contact potential customers of the SME, warning them of possible infringement of their patent, and as a result customers stopped placing orders with the SME. The SME was therefore faced with the stark choice of either closing down or bringing revocation proceedings against the patent. It was apparently told it would cost £100,000 to bring such proceedings, and it simply could not afford to do so. In the end, the SME was fortunate in that it received backing from a much larger company, which enabled it to carry on trading and, indeed, to significantly grow the business. However, I am sure noble Lords can appreciate that such support cannot be guaranteed for all SMEs. As the example demonstrates, it is important that intellectual property does not become the preserve of only those with deep pockets. The clause as it stands, limited as it is and with the necessary safeguards to protect legitimate patent holders, will, I believe, further help to ensure that does not happen.

In his usual perceptive way, my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones raised a goodly number of questions. I will attempt to answer them all. First, he asked whether the procedure was TRIPS-compliant. The proposed legislation mirrors legislation already in place for revocation under Section 73(1) of the Patents Act 1977. The process of revocation will also mirror the process of revocation under Section 73(1). This process means that the revocation will also be considered by a more senior official than the examiner who issued the opinion. He will look at the details afresh and will not be bound by the conclusions of the examiner’s opinion when deciding whether revocation proceedings should begin. The patentee will then have the opportunity to address the alleged invalidity by way of amendment of his patent or by argument. He will also be able to appeal any decision to revoke his patent to the High Court. Further appeals are still possible, and this ensures that the procedure is TRIPS-compliant.

16:00

My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones asked whether opinions will be provided on unitary patents. Until the technical details of the unitary patent system and the unified patent court are finally in place, the IPO is not in a position to comment on whether it will issue an opinion on a unitary patent. However, once the system is established, the IPO will consider the requirements of stakeholders and the merits of providing an opinion on the validity of or infringement of a unitary patent. I hope that that goes some way to providing a reassurance for noble Lords.

My noble friend also asked whether this would change the non-binding nature of the opinion. Giving the IPO power to initiate revocation proceedings will not alter the non-binding nature of the patent opinions service. The decision to initiate revocation proceedings will be made by a senior officer independent of the opinions examiner, and that senior officer will reassess the facts of the case and will not be bound by the conclusions of the opinions examiner. In other words, the opinion may trigger a further separate investigation of validity, but in itself it will remain a non-binding opinion, which I think further emphasises the points I made earlier.

I was asked whether more input will be required from both parties in the process. It is always incumbent on the person requesting the opinion and the person filing observations to provide enough information to support their argument. Sampling observations submitted by patentees where validity has been challenged demonstrate that the majority of patentees are already providing a full and detailed response to the challenge. One respondent to the consultation indicated that the amount of work put into a patent opinion was similar to that put into proceedings before the patents county court, but without the added costs of evidence preparation. My noble friend asked whether this will lead to increased costs for the patent holder if he has to challenge the revocation before the courts. By limiting revocation action to those situations where there is clear-cut invalidity, we consider that the patentee will appreciate that any appeal to the court would be unlikely to result in success. However, if an applicant were to appeal the decision to revoke and the courts were to find in his favour, under the UK court system, the losing party would usually be required to pay all the costs.

My noble friend also asked whether timescales are inappropriate with revocation, as are the procedures. The timescales for revocation and the procedures are set out with the existing procedures in Section 73 of the Patents Act 1977 as it stands, so they are applicable to all. These work well and achieve the right safeguards for patentees; the proposal follows this existing model. My noble friend asked if users of the patent opinions service might not be interested in revoking patents, but any invalid patent that remains in force gives an unfair monopoly to the patentee in the commercialisation of his patent. This will usually have a wider impact than simply on the parties involved in any dispute as it can influence innovation and competition in the field—that is, the wider field beyond the particular patent. There is therefore a public interest in ensuring that clearly invalid patents do not remain in force.

My noble friend asked why we are not extending this further into other areas of invalidity, not focusing just on novelty or inventive step. The intention is to take action only against those patents that are clearly invalid. In practice, that means that the invention is clearly not novel or inventive. There are other grounds on which the validity of a patent can be challenged, such as whether disclosure of the patent is complete enough to allow a third party to work with the invention. Those grounds are almost invariably much less clear cut and would require a higher degree of input from parties than currently afforded and intended by the opinions service.

Earlier in his speech, my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones referred to the consultation. We argue that the response to the IPO’s consultation was mixed, although it did appear that some of the respondents against the proposal assumed that a patent would be automatically revoked, yet this is not the intention. In deciding whether to proceed with this proposal, the IPO took on board the concerns of representative bodies, such as CIPA, while also giving consideration to the comments of large corporations, such as Dyson, and the needs of SMEs and lone inventors, who supported the proposal.

The initial proposal was to initiate revocation proceedings following any conclusion of invalidity. However, the IPO acknowledges the burden that would be required upon a patentee to defend their patent in those areas of validity that are not clear-cut. For this reason the proposal has been significantly limited to initiate proceedings only where an opinion concludes that the patent clearly lacks novelty or inventive step.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

The noble Viscount has just misquoted the section of the Act to which he was referring. If I heard him correctly—I will check Hansard—he referred to the comptroller issuing an opinion under Section 74A that Section 1(1)(a) or (b) is not clearly satisfied, which, indeed, was the intention behind our amendment. I take the point that the noble Viscount said earlier that the notes clearly say that it is envisaged that this additional power to strike off a patent will be exercised only in the clearest of cases where it is indisputable that the patent invention lacks novelty or inventive step. We are not very far apart on this. As I and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said, the industry argues that the current phrasing is too bland to get across the sentiment which I think the noble Viscount is expressing—namely, that there has to be a clear exceptionality about the nature of the opinion. I hope that the noble Viscount will reflect on that matter and come back to it at a later stage. We need to get across the concept that the power will be exercised only in the clearest of cases where it is indisputable that the patent invention lacks novelty or inventive step. It is fine in the notes, but the notes are not the law, and the law needs to be right.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

It may be helpful if I clarify for the noble Lord that I was speaking in relation to the IPO’s practice and policy, as stated in the response to the consultees’ comments, in other words, as part of the consultation. However, I will reflect further on the need to tackle the point that he has made, as he has asked me to do.

Finally, my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones asked why patentees cannot recover their costs. If the patentee appeals to the court following a revocation by the IPO and is successful, he may be able to recover costs, but only if the court thinks that that is right.

I hope that I have managed to answer all the questions. If I have not, I will certainly follow up with a letter. I thank my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones for putting so much effort and thought into his range of questions on this important subject. I hope that in the light of my comments, the noble Lord will not press the amendment.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his very full and careful response. However, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has put his finger on the point. I thought that what the Minister said was entirely reasonable. I heard what he said about TRIPS and two steps. However, when I read the actual wording of the Bill, I do not see that. I see a kind of blancmange where the IPO and the comptroller can take this over and revoke a patent after an opinion without a very clear step between the opinion and the revocation procedure. I am not an expert patent lawyer, and I shall consult a number of organisations, including the Law Society and the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys, but it seems to me that they are entirely right to be concerned about the Bill’s wording.

I entirely accept that the Minister, absolutely in good faith, has read out how he and the IPO believe that this is meant to operate. However, we operate on the basis of the rule of law. The Minister, in a way, has made a Pepper v Hart statement whereby, if we were to have a judicial review of the IPO when revocation had taken place and everything had gone pear-shaped for a patentee, the patentee could rely on the Minister’s statement. I would much prefer to amend the Bill, and I cannot for the life of me see why if it is the intention to have revocation proceedings only in clear-cut cases where a patent is invalid for various particular reasons, it cannot be expressed in the Bill.

The bit of the Minister’s response that I found somewhat disingenuous was somewhat like political jujitsu, when he said that this is all for the benefit of SMEs. I thought that that was a cunning reversal of the arguments because, if we are not careful, SMEs will be faced with the power of a determined major company that wants to make sure that it gets opinions in place. It could then bring revocation proceedings that could be extremely threatening to some small patentees. That is not entirely helpful to the SME.

We need to chew over the Minister’s words, but this is a very serious issue for the professionals involved. They really understand the steps that need to be taken. They understand, as I do not, all the intricacies of TRIPS, they recognise novelty and they have to advise on such issues on a daily basis. They are extremely concerned that this is a woolly area that gives the comptroller too much power. However, we will no doubt come back to this on Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 25A withdrawn.

Amendment 25B not moved.

Clause 15 agreed.

Clause 16 : Unified Patent Court

Amendment 25C

Moved by

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

25C: Clause 16, page 16, line 14, at end insert—
“( ) In making an order under this section, which confers jurisdiction on a court, removes jurisdiction from a court or varies the jurisdiction of a court, the Secretary of State shall—
(a) ensure he takes into account the views of—(i) HM Courts & Tribunals Service,(ii) the Scottish Court Service,(iii) the Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service; and(iv) any other appropriate body;(b) where the number of patent cases is such as to meet the requirements as set out in Article 7 of the Agreement on a Unified Patent Court, confer local divisional court jurisdiction on—(i) in England and Wales, the High Court;(ii) in Scotland, the Court of Session;(iii) in Northern Ireland, the High Court.”

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, we welcome the introduction of the Intellectual Property Bill and are supportive of its policy intent and objectives, particularly as it provides for the power to establish a unified patent court, giving effect to the European agreement made in February 2013, which we also support.

Clause 16 amends Section 89 of the Patents Act 1977 and expressly provides the Secretary of State with the power to make an order conferring divisional jurisdiction on, or removing jurisdiction from, a court. With this amendment, we are suggesting that before this power is used, the Secretary of State ought to consult with stakeholders.

At present, under Article 7 of the Agreement on a Unified Patent Court, each contracting member state may request and establish one division of the court of first instance of the unitary patent court within its jurisdiction for every 100 patent cases in each calendar year during three successive years prior to or subsequent to the date of entry into force of the agreement. This is subject to a maximum number of such divisional courts per jurisdiction of four. We note that in the event that the UK jurisdiction as a whole has a sufficient number of patent cases to merit more than one such divisional court within the UK, the Secretary of State will have the power to designate other courts, which need not be in London.

At present, the Court of Session currently has exclusive jurisdiction in Scotland over patent cases, including UK and EU-UK patents. If it were to lose this jurisdiction in respect of the new unitary patent, which is of course designed to eventually supersede the current European patent and possibly national patents, patent litigants in Scotland would be forced to litigate their relevant patent rights elsewhere in the United Kingdom or further afield in the EU. That would add significantly to their costs and to their overall business burdens and administration. We believe that at least two divisional courts might be situated in the UK as a whole and suggest that one might be based in Scotland. There seems to be potential to ensure that future patent litigants who operate in the Scottish jurisdiction are not unduly disadvantaged.

16:15

This amendment seeks to ensure that the Secretary of State consults HM Courts and Tribunals Service, the Scottish Court Service, the Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service and other appropriate consultees, and takes their views and evidence into account before conferring, removing or varying court jurisdiction. In addition, where sufficient numbers of patent cases in the UK allow, the Secretary of State should confer on each legal jurisdiction throughout the United Kingdom a court which has local divisional court status, allowing patent cases, where appropriate, to be heard in that legal jurisdiction. This will effectively preserve the status quo under the existing national and EU patent regimes. Failure to confer local divisional court status may raise access to justice concerns and increase costs and inconvenience to all businesses and litigants, including SMEs, who may be impacted heavily by potential additional costs in bringing or defending actions. I beg to move.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, the amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Young of Norwood Green, relate to the unified patent court. I will address each amendment in turn.

Amendment 25C seeks to ensure that the Secretary of State takes account of the views of the courts services and any other appropriate body when using the power to confer or amend the jurisdiction of a court. These bodies are already closely involved in the implementation of the unified patent court. Establishing this court is an enormous task that requires resources and expertise from across government. It is for this reason that the Government have set up a task force responsible for UK implementation of the unified patent court agreement. This task force is a joint endeavour between the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Ministry of Justice, and I can assure noble Lords that Ministers and senior officials from each department are fully engaged in this matter.

Officials from Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service are leading on work to establish the UK-based divisions and on the discussions with European partners through the preparatory committee of the unified patent court. Similarly, officials from the Ministry of Justice are leading the work for the UK on the selection and training of judges for the unified patent court. The devolved Administrations in Scotland and Northern Ireland and the courts services in those jurisdictions are represented on the steering board which oversees the work of the task force. Noble Lords may be interested to learn that the Chancellor of the High Court and the patents judiciary in England and Wales are also involved in the work of the task force. The judiciary is represented on the steering board of the task force, and officials meet the judges on a regular basis.

I can confirm that the Government are consulting the Administrations in the crown dependencies and the British Overseas Territories on whether they wish the unified patent court agreement to apply to their territories. This forms part of the usual procedure for ratifying the agreement.

Given this close engagement across government departments and with the devolved Administrations, I trust that noble Lords will agree that the views of all concerned will be taken into account when implementing the unified patent court agreement.

Amendment 25C also seeks to ensure that local divisions of the unified patent court will be set up in each jurisdiction of the UK. I appreciate the arguments in favour of setting up a local division in England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Ensuring local access to justice is a key element of the unified patent court, and this is why the agreement makes provisions for setting up local divisions. Let me be clear that no decision has yet been made about how many local divisions the UK will host and where those divisions may be located. Contracting states of the unified patent court agreement are not obliged to host a local division. Local divisions can be set up and disbanded upon request by a contracting state. These requests will be considered by the body that will govern the administration of the unified patent court. Noble Lords may also be interested to learn that it will be possible for a local division to sit in different locations as the need arises. A travelling local division could provide an alternative to hosting more than one division. This amendment would fix in primary legislation the number and location of any local divisions the UK may host. It is undesirable and unnecessary to be prescriptive in this case as it would restrict the UK in the administration of any UK-based local divisions in a manner not provided for in the unitary patent court agreement.

Amendment 25D raises a number of points. First, the amendment would require the Secretary of State to consider the need for “reasonable” access to courts across the United Kingdom. As I have already said, the Government are working closely with the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Northern Ireland to ensure that the needs of users throughout the UK are addressed.

Secondly, this amendment places a limitation on how the power may be used to require the payment of a fee. As it stands, Clause 16 is intended to account for various circumstances where a fee might be required. The Government do not currently anticipate that fees for the court will be paid directly to any government department. However, the details of the financial arrangements of the court are still being negotiated through the preparatory committee that has been set up by the contracting states of the unified patent court agreement. It is anticipated that court fees will be paid directly to the unified patent court. A change to UK law to facilitate the payment of a fee to the court, as proposed by Amendment 25D, is not required. The agreement sets out high-level principles for how the unified patent court fees will be decided, but it will be for the members of the preparatory committee, including the UK, to agree the level of court fees. In agreeing the level of fees for the court, the preparatory committee will need to balance the need to ensure that the court is accessible to users with the requirement that the system will eventually be self-financing. Ensuring the system is accessible and eventually self-financing is a priority for the UK, and the final details will be carefully considered before we ratify the agreement.

Thirdly, this amendment raises the issue of how the power may be used to align UK law with sections of the unified patent court agreement. As it stands, Clause 16 is intended to ensure that provisions of the Patents Act which relate to national patents may be aligned with equivalent provisions in the unified patent court agreement should this be necessary. For example, it may be desirable to align the law on infringement so that the same provisions apply for European bundle, unitary and national patents. This may be necessary to avoid a situation where patents valid in the UK will be subject to different infringement laws depending on whether they were national patents granted by the IPO or European rights granted by the European Patent Office. The unified patent court agreement does not make any provisions for national patents so it is necessary to ensure that the power conferred specifically allows for this eventuality. This amendment would not allow such an alignment to be made because the power would be restricted to giving effect to the provisions of the agreement.

Finally, this amendment would remove the ability to use the power conferred to amend any enactment other than the Patents Act. This would be an important omission from the scope of the power to ensure that the UK can fully implement the unified patent court agreement, which must be avoided. In light of all that I have highlighted, I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I thank the Minister for that very comprehensive and constructive response. He has shed light on a number of areas that we were concerned about, especially the inclusion of Scotland on the steering board. He talked about judges being trained. Do we have a figure for that yet or are we still determining the need? Other than that, the Minister certainly covered the waterfront, so to speak, and we will obviously read his response carefully. I welcome his openness and the range of the response. Given that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 25C withdrawn.

Amendment 25D not moved.

Clause 16 agreed.

Clause 17 : Sharing information with overseas patent offices

Amendment 25E

Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

25E: Clause 17, page 16, line 36, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 on page 17 and insert—
(3A) No information shall be sent to a patent office outside the United Kingdom (“the other office”) in reliance on subsection (3)(aa) unless the other office provides the application number of a UK patent application and the application number of a patent application being examined by the other office which claims priority from the UK patent application; and no such request shall be acted on before one year from the filing date of the UK application.
(3B) Any information sent to the other patent office must be limited to information on search or examination carried out on the UK application.
(3C) Information shall not be sent to the other office unless working arrangements have been agreed between the comptroller and the other office, including provision for ensuring that the confidentiality of the information sent to the other office is protected.
(3D) The applicant for a UK application for which a request for information has been made by another office shall be informed of the request and of the information sent to the other office.
(3E) Information shall not be sent to another office in reliance on subsection (3)(aa) unless that other office is an organisation which carries out, in relation to patents, functions of the kind carried out by the patent office and which is on an approved list, which may be varied from time to time by statutory instrument.””

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, Clause 17 relates to the exchange of information with other patent offices. The idea behind this provision is, we suppose, to allow the exchange of search and examination results for unpublished applications, as information about published applications is already exchanged. The current exchanges increase efficiency, save duplication and unnecessary work, and are in every way admirable. Perhaps such exchanges are contemplated only with major offices, such as the USA, Europe, Japan and Korea.

The effect of the proposals is much less clear. The new power given by the section is extremely broad. Any information that the other patent office requests may be sent subject to the working arrangements made with the other patent offices, of which only protecting confidentiality is said to be essential. Any patent office, which is quite broadly defined, may request the information. Possibly in the case of smaller countries the information provided from the UK could substitute for a local search or examination, which is not unreasonable, unless such requests would make too much extra work for the UK office.

The working arrangements are completely at the discretion of the comptroller. They do not have to be approved by Parliament, unlike many other powers proposed under this Bill. There is no limitation on the type of information that may be exchanged or the form in which it might be requested. For example, a request might be for details and copies of all applications in the name of company X relating to technology Y. Our amendment suggests that the provision should be substantially limited, in the following ways. Information to be exchanged should be limited to search and examination results. Information should be provided about UK applications only, designated by a UK filing number, from which priority has been claimed in the country of the patent office seeking information. No information should be provided earlier than one year from the date of the UK filing unless the applicant agrees otherwise. The UK applicant should be informed of the request and the information provided. Information should be provided to patent offices of countries on an approved list only, to be added to from time to time by statutory instrument. I beg to move.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, Clause 17 will allow the Intellectual Property Office to share patent information on unpublished patent applications with patent offices outside the United Kingdom on a confidential basis for their use in processing similar patent applications filed with them. This will help speed up international patent processing. I hope that noble Lords will bear with me, as I have much to say in speaking to this amendment.

Amendment 25E would place various restrictions on the circumstances in which information may be sent to a patent office outside the United Kingdom. First, the amendment would introduce a requirement that the other patent office must quote the application number of a UK patent application when it requests information. It is absolutely the intention that information will be shared with other offices only where they have specified what information is required and in relation to which patent application, identified by the application number. It is for this reason that Clause 17 applies to such information as that office requests and only in accordance with the agreements made by the Intellectual Property Office. This is the approach taken when the IPO provides information to the European Patent Office in accordance with Section 118(3)(a) of the Patents Act and the European Patent Convention.

Secondly, the amendment would restrict the arrangements so that information could be shared only when an application had been filed abroad following a UK application. In practice, it is only when the other office is dealing with an application, which follows on from a UK application, that it will be able to gain any benefit from seeing the results of the UK work.

16:30

Thirdly, the amendment would restrict the work-sharing arrangements so that information could be shared only 12 months after an application had been filed at the UK office. Restricting the provision in this way is likely to detract from the usefulness of the information to other offices as they may not receive the information in time for the completion of their own search and examination work on related applications filed in that office. None the less, I can reassure noble Lords that, in practice, the first opportunity at which useful information can be shared is after completion of the search by the UK office. Indeed, the existing arrangements with the European Patent Office operate in this manner. Requests from another office will therefore in practice not be made until after the applicant has filed a later application in that office that follows on from the UK application.

Fourthly, the amendment would restrict the work-sharing arrangements so that they apply to the UK search and examination results only. Work sharing will be of the greatest benefit if the context of the search and examination work conducted by the UK office is also shared. It will therefore be useful to that other office if the IPO is able to share, for example, the claims of a patent application that define the invention. That will enable the other office to work most efficiently with the information provided by the UK. I can assure noble Lords present today that the types of information to be shared extend only to that information likely to reduce duplication. I also suggest that requirements such as what information can be shared are far more suitable for inclusion in the working agreements between the IPO and the other office than for primary legislation. I have already referred to the existing arrangements with the European Patent Office and remind noble Lords that the details are not set out in primary legislation.

Fifthly, the amendment would require the IPO to inform each applicant that a request for information had been made in relation to their application and what information was being shared. I appreciate that it is essential that patent applicants must be provided with a full and complete explanation along the lines of the following: what information is being shared; from what point onwards; with which other offices it is being shared; and what restrictions are in place on the use of that information. That will enable patent applicants to make fully informed decisions about their filing strategies. I reassure noble Lords that my officials at the IPO intend to provide such information on the IPO’s website, which will provide applicants with sufficient notice of future plans to enable them to make fully informed decisions about their filing strategies. For example, the website will explain to applicants that the work-sharing arrangements will not share any information until a search has been completed. Providing this general information will mean that there is no need to inform applicants on an individual basis.

Finally, the amendment would require an approved list to be created, as the noble Lord mentioned, by statutory instrument, listing to which offices the IPO may send information. The schedule to the Bill removes the need for the Government to introduce secondary legislation simply to update lists of countries. To introduce the requirement here would be inconsistent with the aim of simplifying processes under the Bill. None the less, as I have already explained, I appreciate that it is essential that patent applicants must be provided with full and complete explanations of the work-sharing arrangements as and when they are agreed so that they can make fully informed decisions about their filing strategies. Providing an approved list in legislation of potential countries for future work-sharing arrangements is likely to lead to confusion for other offices and patent applicants. A country may be included on that approved list even though no work-sharing arrangements are yet in place or even being considered. Users will therefore still need to refer to the IPO’s website to confirm the details of any existing or forthcoming work-sharing arrangements.

I trust that my somewhat lengthy explanations have provided sufficient reassurances for noble Lords. In the light of my comments, I ask that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, withdraws his amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank the Minister for his very full response to the amendment. I think we are very close on a number of the matters. I did not pick up from his response whether this is for unpublished patents only, but perhaps he mentioned it, so I shall read Hansard carefully. I am grateful for the assurance that he has given, which will be of considerable interest to the patent industry. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 25E withdrawn.

Clause 17 agreed.

Clauses 18 and 19 agreed.

Committee adjourned at 4.35 pm.

House of Lords

Thursday 13th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Thursday, 13 June 2013

11:00

Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Chester.

Deaf People: Telephone Services

Thursday 13th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:06

Asked By

[Lord Shipley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals they have to make it easier for deaf people to access telephone banking and other similar services.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, Ed Vaizey, Minister for Communications, has met representatives from the banks and written to more than 80 FTSE companies engaged with customer services to encourage them to communicate with their deaf and hard-of-hearing customers through a mix of more suitable contacts, be it by e-mail, SMS, text relay, Typetalk or video relay services—VRS. BT, Lloyds TSB, Halifax and the Royal Bank of Scotland have launched VRS schemes, with Barclays and the Post Office currently considering it.

[Lord Shipley]

I thank the Minister for his reply which I find most encouraging. Given that some 800,000 people in the UK are severely or profoundly deaf and 25,000 rely on British Sign Language, and given also that the technology exists pretty cheaply to provide the necessary communications and security checks, does the Minister agree that implementation of the Equality Act 2010 by all providers should be speeded up?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we must clearly do better for the many people whom my noble friend has highlighted. I understand that for between 55,000 and 70,000 people in our country British Sign Language is their first or preferred language. The Minister for Communications has been extremely active, working with other departments, Ofcom, banks, service providers and voluntary organisations. The relay services working group has been set up to advance the potential for VRS and I would urge all service providers to see implementation as a matter of top priority.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is a question not merely of introducing helpful technology such as video links but also of the appropriate human communication skills to accompany it—for example the ability to speak slowly and distinctly with an appropriate background to aid lip-reading or a recognition that those with a hearing impairment might process material rather more slowly, particularly when they are engaged at a distance? What encouragement are the Government able to give to the banks to ensure that the acquisition of such skills and awareness is part of routine staff training?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I entirely endorse what the right reverend Prelate has said. It is very important that not only the banks but all those customer service providers are aware of how their employees should be trained. Indeed, the British Bankers’ Association is endeavouring to ensure that these problems are resolved, particularly in terms of training for deaf and hearing-impaired customers. Many concerns have been voiced around faulty hearing loops, for example—about their being in place in banks and about customers being aware of them. However, technological advances cannot replace the most important feature of our existence, which is a common decency and humanity.

[The Earl of Courtown]

I myself am slightly hard of hearing and I think that one or two other noble Lords are as well. Does my noble friend agree that the problem is far wider than hearing what people are telling you on the telephone or over a counter at a bank? I wonder what more can be done to help with this problem, apart from me getting a hearing aid.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I think that the acoustics in certain parts of your Lordships’ House may need some assistance. In truth, the banks recognise that they have a responsibility there, and the Equality Act 2010 is very clear that, with reasonable adjustments, all services should be available to all customers. With the Banking Conduct of Business Sourcebook, which is the way in which the banks are looking at this, they are actively seeing in what ways they can ensure that there is a prompt, efficient and fair service for all their customers, particularly the elderly and disabled.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, the Equality Act 2010 also includes provisions to strengthen the obligation on service providers to make information available in accessible formats for those who have difficulty reading print. Would the Government develop a cross-government strategy for ensuring better implementation of those provisions? Would Ministers be prepared to meet me to discuss what the elements of such a strategy might be?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord. The Minister for Communications is already meeting many groups and I would be delighted to encourage him to meet the noble Lord too. I would very much like to attend such a meeting as well. I know that the Minister for Communications is seeking active implementation across the piece on disabilities regardless of whether it concerns those who are hard of hearing or visual impairment.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the curses of the age is the Dalek-operated automated switchboard? What most of us want when we make a telephone call is to speak to a human being. Although it is terribly important to give every possible assistance to the deaf, all people should be able to speak to a recognisable human being as quickly as possible and without going through 10 options.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I think that everyone in your Lordships’ House sympathises with the points that my noble friend has made. We have all experienced difficulty in trying to get across what we think is a very simple transaction. Perhaps a message to the banks and to all service providers is, as I say, that providing a human face and human voice very early on is much to be encouraged.

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, Scope tells us that 63% of people with hearing difficulties experience at least one problem compared with 37% of all those who are disabled—so this is a very serious issue indeed for those who are hard of hearing and disabled. It is very encouraging that the Government are having these discussions, and it is quite right too. However, have they set targets for the banking profession and other financial services to bring down that number? Does the Minister agree that that would be a reasonable request for the Government to make?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I agree with the noble Baroness. The Government are actively pressing for implementation. I referred to the letter that the Minister for Communications has written to more than 80 FTSE companies, and I know that he has a forward date in his diary for responses to it and will be looking for implementation. I think that this is an issue on which we can all unite. It is a no-brainer, as they say. All people in this country deserve a fair service.

[Lord McColl of Dulwich]

Would my noble friend be interested to know that in medical schools great attention is paid to teaching would-be doctors how to communicate with deaf people, and that in the final exam they are carefully examined to ensure that they are in fact able to do so? Could this not be extended to schools and universities throughout?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Clarity of language and in communication across the board should be in any implementation and indeed from early stages in education in nurseries and primary schools. Communication skills, ensuring that the message you want to get across is understood, are essential.

EU: UK Membership

Thursday 13th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:14

Asked By

[Lord Dykes]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Germany about recent comments made by senior members of that Government about the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Government discuss a range of issues with Germany and with other EU member states, many of which agree about the need for reform to address the challenges that the EU faces, including dealing with the eurozone crisis, increasing the EU’s competitiveness in the global economy and making the EU more flexible and democratically accountable. Of course, the Government are committed to membership of a reformed EU. As the Prime Minister repeated on Monday, membership of the EU is in the UK’s national interest.

[Lord Dykes]

Does my noble friend agree that our connection and links with Germany are a key factor for us not only bilaterally but in extending and empowering our greater influence in the whole of the European Union? Can he give some specific examples of how British Ministers have engaged positively with their German counterparts in recent times to further those links?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, this Government have made it a priority to increase our engagement with Germany. We have nearly quadrupled the number of ministerial and senior official bilateral visits to Germany each year compared with 2009-10. We have established joint meetings twice a year of the British-German ministerial committees on the European Union, in which I take part myself. The Foreign Secretary has made many visits to Germany, most recently to the Königswinter conference on 31 May, and the Prime Minister works very closely and regularly with Chancellor Merkel.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Does the Minister accept that, in the impressive list that he gave of things that we are discussing with our German friends, he did not mention our future engagement with justice and home affairs, on which I am sure that the German Government have strong views, somewhat in conflict with the views expressed from the government Front Bench in the other place yesterday?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I thank the noble Lord for his usual extremely constructive contribution. Of course we are discussing co-operation in police and judicial matters with the Germans, as we are discussing all other matters.

[Lord Marlesford]

Does my noble friend agree that bilateral discussions are one thing, but negotiations on the future of the EU are another? When do the Government expect negotiations to start and with whom?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the European Union is a continuous process of negotiation. We are pursuing a multilateral reform agenda and, indeed, in the past few months a number of things on that agenda have been achieved. We were committed to containing the growth of the European Union budget and the multiannual financial framework agreement has achieved that. We have been committed, as indeed were the previous Labour Government, to extensive reform of the common fisheries policy; that has now been more or less achieved. We were committed to an EU patent court; that is now here. There is a range of further items that we wish to pursue and we will do so with like-minded member Governments, many of whom share our concerns, through the processes of multilateral negotiation.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the best ways of ensuring that great concerns are not caused by British European policy would be to accept the sage advice of the Foreign Affairs Committee in another place? In its report published earlier this week it said that the way to proceed is through a broad, positive reform agenda for the EU as a whole and not by devising new cut-outs for the UK. In the effort that the Government are making to talk at all levels with the German Government, which I strongly welcome, please do not forget—and I hope that the Minister will say that he has not forgotten—about the need to talk to France, too, because unanimity is needed to get many of these changes.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we have certainly not forgotten about France or the other 25 members of the European Union. Bilateral discussions and multilateral negotiations are a constant process. We welcome the report from the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee and I recommend it to Members of this House.

[Lord Grocott]

Given that these days we are regularly given the benefit of different members of the Government giving different opinions on government policy, will the Minister, with his academic and political background, give us the latest definition of what he understands by the term “collective responsibility”?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we are a coalition Government. However, I remember that during the previous Government there were occasions when Ministers—and special advisers—actively briefed against one another.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, as we are the eurozone’s largest trading partner, both for exports and imports, will Germany not do all in her power to ensure that none of our jobs is in danger when we come to leave the failed political construct of the EU itself?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the idea that countries in deficit have the overwhelming negotiating advantage over countries in credit would not be supported by most economic historians. I trust that the noble Lord noticed the Daily Mail story yesterday on the European Parliament, which noted that three of the five most ineffective and absent Members of the European Parliament are members of UKIP and that the most conscientious, dedicated and hardworking group is the British Liberal Democrats.

House of Lords: Royal Gallery Frescos

Thursday 13th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:21

Asked By

[Lord Trefgarne]

To ask the Chairman of Committees what is the present condition of the two large Maclise frescos in the Royal Gallery; and what are his plans for their restoration.

[The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel)]

My Lords, over the past 12 months a research project with the Cologne University of Applied Sciences has been run by the Curator’s Office to examine the condition of the murals and investigate ways to improve their presentation. At the moment it is too early to say how the murals might be restored, but the results of that research will be available in the autumn, and early indications are positive. A briefing note with further details is available in the Library.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, would it not be a shame if these iconic pictures, part of the House of Lords and part of the House of Lords art collection, were to be allowed to deteriorate further, and will the noble Lord the Lord Chairman do his best to see that that does not happen?

[The Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, I fully anticipate that the curator, once this research has been completed, will be able to come forward with proposals for the conservation, cleaning and lighting of the murals so that they can be restored to their full glory and vibrancy—I hope before any future visit by a French President.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords, does the Chairman of Committees agree that one of the reasons why it is important that these murals be preserved to the best standard that can be achieved is that Daniel Maclise was himself a very important artist? He was important both in Parliament and outside it, he was a friend of Charles Dickens and he died, as I recollect from my reading, in not very propitious circumstances and in poverty. Part of the reason for that was his relationship with the Houses of Parliament. Is it not the case that we would do well to restore his reputation with his pictures?

[The Chairman of Committees]

Indeed.

[Lord Stirrup]

My Lords, the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees has referred to future visits of a French President. However, he will, of course, be well aware, as will other noble Lords, that in two years’ time we celebrate the bicentenary of the Battle of Waterloo. Is there any chance that something could be done about the condition of that particular picture before that date?

[The Chairman of Committees]

That is a very fair point. It would be lovely if we could make progress in time for the bicentenary of Waterloo. It depends on the detail we are given once the research is completed and then how quickly we can move to do the restoration—and, I am afraid, on where the money comes from.

[Lord Kinnock]

My Lords, can the Chairman of Committees possibly ensure that in any careful restoration of these brilliant pieces of work, somehow a little blood is added to the representations of Trafalgar and Waterloo, since the impression given to succeeding generations is of a rather sanitised version of warfare?

[The Chairman of Committees]

I think there might be some difficulty in that one. If I can be a little bit serious and give a bit more information to the House, the murals, almost from the start, have lost a deal of colour. They became murky and coloured down, mainly, I think, because of the dirt and coal dust that were in the atmosphere at that time in the mid-Victorian age. It is hoped that by proper cleaning we can get the colours back. I do not think that necessarily means a sanitised view of warfare.

[Lord Dobbs]

My Lords, does the Lord Chairman accept that there is a lingering irony in these wonderful images next door? They were commissioned by a German, Prince Albert; they were carried out by a wonderful, gifted Irishman, Maclise; and they were almost ruined by the constant interference of bureaucrats. They show a Britain interdependent with its European neighbours but determined to preserve its sovereignty against the overbearing European project; a Britain of men and women, young and old, black men as well as white, and, above all, a Britain victorious. Does the Lord Chairman not agree that while the paint gets darker nevertheless their message gets ever brighter?

[The Chairman of Committees]

Possibly. I do recollect somewhere along the line that when Wellington and Blucher met at Waterloo, they spoke to each other in French.

[Lord West of Spithead]

Does the Chairman of Committees not agree that something might be added in the Royal Gallery by a wonderful model of a three-decker like “Victory”? It would add to the impact of what is there and it could be moved out on special occasions. I know that there are a number of museums that would be willing to loan that—and perhaps add in a stuffed-horse or something for the army.

[The Chairman of Committees]

When it comes to the Royal Gallery, I do not know where my responsibilities end and Black Rod’s begin, but if it comes to stuffed-horses, the noble Lord had better ask Black Rod rather than me.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned a future visit of a French President. Will he give your Lordships an assurance that on that occasion no shroud of misplaced sensitivity will be placed on the pictures in order to spare the French President’s knowledge of history?

[The Chairman of Committees]

I do not think that that has ever been the case and the French Presidents that I have ever had any contact with have always remarked on how much they liked looking at the murals.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, what Wellington said is not recorded but apparently Field Marshal Blucher spoke the only words of English that he knew and said, “I have kept my word”.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, does the Lord Chairman realise that a very important reason for preserving the Maclise legacy is not simply the two great frescos in the Royal Gallery but the two that are in this Chamber, “The Spirit of Justice” and “The Spirit of Chivalry”? All those paintings have one major theme, which is the unity and co-operation of the nations and ethnicities of the United Kingdom in a common cause. That is a particular reason to preserve this legacy.

[The Chairman of Committees]

Speaking as someone who was born in England, did part of my education in Wales, and have lived virtually all my adult life in Scotland, I totally agree with the sentiments that the noble Lord expresses.

Children: Contact with Fathers

Thursday 13th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:29

Asked By

[Lord Bates]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the finding by the Centre for Social Justice that around one million children in Britain grow up with no contact with their fathers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

My Lords, the Government’s commitment to supporting strong and stable families was most recently set out in our Social Justice: transforming lives—One year on report. Families are the bedrock of our society and the Government’s commitment to parental involvement in their children’s lives where this is practicable and safe is clear. This Government are rightly taking action, both to help families stay together and to support an ongoing relationship between parents and their children where breakdown is unavoidable.

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. Does he accept that this report confirms that the absence of a father figure in a child’s life results in a child being statistically less likely to achieve higher educational outcomes, more likely to encounter the criminal justice system, more likely to have health and emotional problems, to have a higher chance of teenage pregnancy and to be more likely to suffer from severe economic disadvantage? As we approach Father’s Day this weekend, will my noble friend reaffirm the vital role that fathers have to play alongside mothers in raising their children? Should he be in search of an appropriate gift for Father’s Day, I point him in the direction of the manifesto commitment to introduce a married couples’ tax allowance.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on the alacrity with which he has asked this Question, because I do not think that the CSJ has yet published the report, so I cannot respond in detail on what is in it. Clearly, however, the coalition agreement contained the transferable tax allowance. That remains the Government’s intention.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale]

My Lords, a lot of us are confused as to what has happened to the Prime Minister’s big society initiative. It seems that this is an area in which that initiative could find some traction. Will the Government look at the role model of grandparents to address some of the challenges in our society and at engaging grandparents as role models for young children whether they are in single-parent families or not? Those role models could teach young children an awful lot indeed.

[Lord Freud]

Yes, my Lords. There is huge value in the role of grandparents. One of the encouraging things in a project in which I have been involved is how enthusiastic retired people are in mentoring youngsters—particularly youngsters making that difficult transition to adulthood. There is a lot that older people can contribute.

[Baroness Benjamin]

My Lords, childhood lasts a lifetime, and far too many children are growing up as victims of family breakdown and lone-parenting households, which appears to be leading us towards a catastrophic social meltdown unless urgent action is taken. Does my noble friend agree that part of the solution is to encourage even more men to become primary school teachers and role models to the thousands of children who are growing up without any male influence in their lives, and put an even greater emphasis on the teaching of relationship, parenting and social and life skills in schools?

[Lord Freud]

Well, my Lords, there being very few males in primary schools is an important point, although clearly one off my brief. It is a valuable point which needs to be looked at.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Does the Minister accept that for every case where a man is deprived of access by the courts to his child, there will be at least 20 cases where a father has no interest whatever in the upbringing of those children? Whereas no human agency can force a man to love, respect and be responsible for his children, it is nevertheless a human tragedy of such immense proportions as to demand the urgent action of government. Is there a specific plan that the Government are prepared to consider, and will they consider giving it ample and adequate resources?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we are clearly talking about fundamental social trends which have been going on for many decades. There are two ways of looking at family breakdown: in some ways it is a liberation, and in some ways it is an unnecessary tragedy when you have children involved. Clearly, we have various prevention measures, a fund to get counselling practitioners trained and support for people so that when they separate, that separation is as amicable as possible.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, is it not the case that, for many young people with separated parents, overnight stays are made expensive, if not impossible, by the bedroom tax?

[Lord Freud]

We are clearly in a position where we have a huge deficit and we need to find ways of reducing it. One thing about the spare room subsidy is that if we were to make double provision for children—in other words, a room in two different places—that would cost the state another £50 million. There are lots of desirables that we would all like to see, but we have really got to go to the essentials when we are running the kind of deficit that we are.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, referring back to the question about grandparents, does not my noble friend agree that it will be no use relying on grandparents in a few years’ time? Bearing in mind that the non-mixing and matching of parents, such as we have had in the past, is now disappearing, we will not be able to rely on a grandparental relationship when that extends to that generation.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, one thing that happens today which has not happened so much in previous generations is that we have much more complex family networks, with in-laws and step-parents around. It is a more complicated position, but I suspect that it is possible to form relationships at both the parent and grandparent level, even if that is more complicated than it has been.

Business of the House

Thursday 13th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Timing of Debates

11:37

Moved By

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That the debates on the Motions in the names of Lord Trimble and Baroness Wheatcroft set down for today shall each be limited to 2½ hours.

Motion agreed.

Motion to Adjourn

Moved by

[Lord Newby]

That the House do now adjourn.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until not before 1 o’clock to enable those who wish to do so to make their way to the Queen’s Robing Room to hear an address from the Prime Minister of Canada. All Members of the House are welcome to attend, and I encourage them to do so.

Motion agreed.

11:37

Sitting suspended.

G8 Summit

Thursday 13th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

13:00

Moved By

[Lord Trimble]

That this House takes note of the Government’s priorities to be pursued at the next meeting of the G8 in Northern Ireland on 17 and 18 June 2013.

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, I begin by thanking the Prime Minister for selecting Fermanagh as the location for the G8 summit. He had scores, if not hundreds, of possible locations throughout the United Kingdom from which to choose, but I am sure that it was simply the beauty and tranquillity of the surroundings, together with the high quality of communication and security available, that led to the choice. I can recommend that noble Lords go and see just how nice it is. I must also thank the nearly 4,000 policemen from other parts of the United Kingdom who are rendering support to the police in Northern Ireland over the coming days. We hope that they have a pleasant and peaceful time, but I am confident that they can cope if anybody tries to disturb the peace.

The Prime Minister set out the Government’s priorities for the G8 in a speech at Davos in January, and revisited the topic on Monday. I will refer to the former, in which he began by recalling,

“we are in the midst of a long struggle against murderous terrorists and the poisonous ideology that supports them”.

We cannot avoid this struggle, for the ideology that drives terrorism is one that hates our society and the freedoms and opportunities that it provides. That hatred is all the greater because most people in the countries and cultures from which the terrorists come desire the same freedoms and opportunities that we enjoy. David Cameron rightly pointed out that our response must be intelligent and patient, and while military action may be necessary, it must be combined with a political response. My own experience is that good intelligence is absolutely essential, but it is unlikely to be obtained on the scale necessary until we have won the ideological war and convinced the communities from which terrorists come that their ideology is wrong and that in a mature democracy such as ours the only valid option is the use of exclusively peaceful and democratic means.

Turning to the question of how to compete in today’s global economic race, this Government have done much to tackle the problems created by our predecessors: the debt, the bloated welfare system, the underperforming education system. But as David Cameron says,

“competing in the global race is not just about what we do at home, it is about the wider economy we’ll operate in, the rules that shape it, the fairness and the openness”,

it needs. So what we need to see from the G8 is a drive to,

“more free trade … fairer tax systems … more transparency on how governments and … companies operate”.

To turn to tax and transparency, on 21 May a US Senate committee heard a report entitled Offshore Profit Shifting and the US Tax Code—Part 2. The report focused on Apple and how it used,

“a variety of offshore structures, arrangements, and transactions to shift billions of dollars in profits away from the United States and into Ireland, where Apple has negotiated a special corporate tax rate of less than two percent”.

It mentioned the movement of substantial funds to offshore entities in Ireland, while claiming that they were not tax residents of any jurisdiction. The report also mentioned companies such as Apple Operations International and Apple Sales International, which together had received hundreds of millions of dollars, the former paying no corporate income tax to any national Government for five years, and the latter, due in part to its alleged status as a non-tax resident, paying taxes on only a tiny fraction of its income.

The Irish Government immediately issued a denial that a special rate of corporation tax had been negotiated with Apple. On 26 May, the Dublin-based Sunday Business Post reported:

“This newspaper has learnt that Apple was one of about six multinationals that reached an agreement with Charles Haughey’s coalition in 1990 ... The deal did not relate to the corporation tax rate. Instead it centred on the tax base on which profits were calculated.”

The following Sunday, the paper added:

“What was negotiated was a deal that allowed Apple and the other multinationals to reduce their taxable corporate profits. This had the effect of reducing the tax Apple paid on profits to 2% or less for a number of years ... This was the ‘double Irish’ system under which income earned by one Irish Company was transferred to another Company—typically via a royalty payment under which the second company was paid for intellectual property—with the second company being incorporated here”—

in Ireland—

“but tax resident elsewhere”.

Under US law, the second company, despite being controlled from the US, was not regarded as tax resident in the US, and so not liable for US corporation tax. The paper thinks that this double Irish arrangement now applies to nine multinationals. It also says that the Irish are under pressure to end this, and I hope that the Minister in replying can tell us more on that point.

Much of Apple’s UK profits are spirited away in a similar manner and, of course, this is done by other major companies. There has been much comment and anger about this, not least in this House last week, but tax avoidance is lawful and a natural instinct that government use to shape popular choices. Directors considering their duty to their company may even think that it is obligatory. I think that the sensible response is to clarify what is lawful and what unlawful—and maybe, indeed, to extend what is unlawful. This will also need action at international level. At least the senatorial report might result in legislation to negate the double Irish device. My noble friend Lord Newby, replying to last Thursday’s debate, outlined some of the current lines of action and said,

“the Prime Minister will take a lead and will push this very hard at the G8 later this month”.—[Official Report, 6/6/13; col.1312.]

Corruption and money-laundering are similar threats to global and national economic health. This is not just a third world problem. At a reception in this House a few weeks ago to launch his book entitled Fragile Empire, Ben Judah estimated that roughly one-third of public expenditure in Russia is lost through corruption. That is an enormous figure. Global Financial Integrity, in a report published in February, Russia: Illicit Financial Flows, said that the Russian economy had lost hundreds of millions of dollars in illicit financial outflows. These outflows represent the proceeds of crime, corruption and tax evasion. The report estimated the size of Russia’s underground economy, including drug smuggling, arms and human trafficking, at no less than 46% of GDP—another astonishing figure. In the past, much of this was laundered through Cyprus, but I understand that now a lot of it is laundered through the UK and its dependencies. This is the preferred route, because money is considered safer here.

I choose Russia as an example, although it is not the only one, partly because of its importance and proximity to us, but also because there are important matters on which we are seeking Russia’s diplomatic support. It would be helpful, and perhaps easier to obtain that, if we were doing something which the Russians would regard as very welcome.

On tax transparency, which would help to inhibit laundering, the Prime Minister has written to the leaders of the Crown dependencies and overseas territories. Most of these have agreed to join in an automatic exchange of information scheme based on the US Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, and 17 EU members have called for a new global standard based on that Act. Equally important is developing accurate registries of who really owns and controls companies, and being clear about the beneficial ownership of companies. This seems to be developing rapidly; there are reports in the press that indicate that some people are reluctant to join in this scheme. I hope that the Minister can bring us up to date on this, and touch on what revisions the United Kingdom is seeking to the EU’s third money-laundering directive.

I turn to two issues where Russia is in a position to make a positive contribution, one of which is Syria. It is often said of Syria that there are no good options left, but it is not unusual for us to have to sift out the worst from the not so bad. Leaving the Sunni majority in Syria to be crushed by Lebanese Hezbollah, Iranian Revolutionary Guards and Shia supporters from Iraq, all of whom are active within Syria in significant numbers as we speak, must be pretty close to the worst option available.

On Iran, it looks as though the regime there will continue to accumulate 20% enriched uranium, which it has in significant quantities. That can be taken to weapons grade in three to four months at the outside, but it does not look as if the regime will try to do this until it suits it to do so. Therefore, the international community needs to ensure that it is in a position to detect such a dash and to do it in sufficient time for action to be taken by the Security Council, so as to avoid the possibility of others taking their own initiatives. Unfortunately, looking back over other cases where countries went nuclear, it is depressing to see how often the international community was taken by surprise.

Let me turn to more cheerful matters. On trade, it is hoped that the G8 summit will see the launch of negotiations on a free trade area between Europe and the United States. The prize here is enormous, but estimates vary. It is said that a US/EU free trade area would add $60 billion or in some cases $80 billion to US GDP, and $50 billion to $100 billion to EU GDP, including at least $10 billion to the United Kingdom economy, with further worldwide gains in excess of $80 billion. The figures are estimates, but they give an indication of the extent of the prize that is available.

The US Government have indicated that they want to achieve an agreement quickly. But before they committed themselves to it, they asked for, and I believe received, an undertaking from the European Commission that on a certain key issue the Commission would follow the science. I pretty much hope that this lead will be followed by the member states on whose behalf the Commission will be negotiating and that the absurd quasi-superstitious fear of genetically modified crops will not be allowed to deprive us of this tremendous opportunity.

In addition, the EU is in or about to commence talks with Singapore, Canada and Japan, and the World Trade Organisation is working on a deal to sweep away trade bureaucracy at a ministerial conference in December at Bali. It is a pity that, in the midst of all these opportunities, our trade and recovery is, and unfortunately will be, held back by the weakness of our largest market, which is likely to persist until those involved come to the painful, but inevitable, conclusion that the euro was a mistake.

None the less, there are some reasons for optimism. We have some economic successes. The business editor of the Times, Ian King, pointed out last week that this year more cars will roll off Britain’s production line than in any year since 1972, and that four out of five of these cars will be exported—a phenomenon not seen since 1976. Since 2010, while public sector employment has fallen by some 420,000, 1.3 million private sector jobs have been created. Some purchasing managers’ indices—PMIs—have been published recently, in which a figure over 50 indicates growth and a figure under 50 indicates contraction. This week, the Financial Times gave a very interesting regional breakdown of the latest figures. Yorkshire and Humber lead the field with 57.6, a 26-month high for the region. Wales is second on 56.7, which is a remarkable 39-month high for Wales. London comes third on 56.4, a 14-month high. All other regions in the UK show growth, except for Northern Ireland, which on a figure of 49.6 is very close but not quite into the positive field. However, for Northern Ireland, that is an 18-month high. We therefore have a remarkable picture of very significant growth shown by these PMI figures. Of course, they are only possible forerunners of actual growth, which still has to come.

There are still other problems: lending to SMEs continues to shrink; productivity, to quote Mr King, remains lousy; we are still running, proportionately, a bigger deficit than Greece; and exports are rather disappointing. But these weaknesses underline how right the Government are to prioritise tax and trade. We do not expect next week’s meeting to solve all problems, but we hope that there will be progress on what are indubitably the priorities for the country and that this progress will contribute to the continuing recovery of the economy. I beg to move.

13:14

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, for securing and opening this debate on the important events that will take place in Northern Ireland next week. I wish Northern Ireland well in hosting the summit, and I praise the Prime Minister for what I think was a brave decision to take the summit to that location. I wish not only the Prime Minister but the First Minister and Deputy First Minister well in maximising the benefits and outcomes of the 2013 G8 summit. I hope that it helps to entrench peace in Northern Ireland and that it is a success which signals that real change has taken place.

The summit at Gleneagles in 2005 was undoubtedly one of the highlights of my time as First Minister of Scotland. Many of us will remember the incredible events in advance of that summit: the 200,000-plus people who in Edinburgh the weekend previously called for making poverty history; the concerts that took place in all eight capitals, creating a global movement for change, perhaps for the first time ever; the work by UNICEF and others to involve young people in the G8 and its discussions in a way that had not happened before; the horrific violence that took place in Edinburgh in the two days before the summit; and the attempts to climb the fence in the fields of Gleneagles as the summit got under way.

However, inside that fence, the discussions involved, for the first time, leaders from Africa and around the world—not just the G8 leaders but others, too—who came together to try to solve one of the great problems and challenges of our age. The next morning saw the horrific bombings in London and Tony Blair’s departure from Gleneagles to come back here to take charge. However, in Gleneagles there was a resolve to finish the summit and make the decisions that were required, including the commitment to $50 billion of new money in aid, the hope of a new agreement on trade, perhaps not yet realised, and action on debt, education and health, all of which contributed to a great pride in Scotland that ultimately the summit had been a success, despite the bombers and those who tried to disrupt it.

The challenges of 2013 are perhaps new. The threats may be slightly different but, again, leadership is required. In my view, the agenda that has been set out to advance trade, to ensure tax compliance and to promote greater transparency, particularly in tax affairs, is the right one for our time. However, on trade, although it is vital that the EU-Japan discussions and the EU-US discussions get under way because they affect us all, it is also vital that we do not forget that agenda of fair trade and ensure that global trade agreements open access to markets fairly for all.

On tax, I want to talk briefly about Caroline Muchanga, who lives in Mazabuka in Zambia. She has two daughters and one son. On a good day, from the small market stall that she has in her village she earns $4, which is not always enough to feed her children or to pay the school fees for her daughters. One of the products that Caroline sells on her stall is White Spoon sugar, made by Associated British Foods. As estimated by ActionAid, ABF makes about $123 million in profits in Zambia alone every year, yet Caroline Muchanga pays more in cash in tax in Zambia than ABF. This is immoral. ABF is not alone, and it is perhaps wrong to single out one company, because there are companies and individuals doing this all over the world and not just in sub-Saharan Africa. However, that lost tax to countries such as Zambia is estimated to be about three times the total of international aid from the developed world to the developing world. That loss of revenue cripples economies, it affects public services and it costs lives. Therefore, when the G8 meets next week in Northern Ireland, it must act on these issues.

First, as the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, already said, the global sign-up to financial information sharing is a vital part of the agenda for this summit. The UK can take a lead in this by insisting both that all our European Union partners sign up to this financial information sharing, and that the UK dependencies and territories play their part, too. I would be interested to know what the Minister can tell us about the discussions with the dependencies and territories that will take place over these next few days.

Secondly, and I think absolutely crucially, a legal register of beneficial ownership is long, long overdue. To make progress on this agenda it is absolutely critical to understand who owns companies and corporations, understand who gets the profits, and understand who is moving them from the countries where they are made to the countries where they are held for tax purposes. I understand that some members of the G8—perhaps including Canada, as was reported in the Canadian press recently—may be hesitant about a legal register of beneficial ownership. The members of the G8 need to show global leadership on this agenda. They must be brave, be strong and ensure that such a register is in place. It must apply not only in the G8 countries but right across the world, so that those countries that are currently losing out on all that revenue have a chance to identify and chase it, and ensure that their economies can benefit more successfully in the future.

Thirdly, it is crucial that the UK’s leadership of the G8 next week does not deal with these issues in the context of Europe or of the strong economies of the world. The summit must also take action really to secure the opportunity for the weakest economies in the world, the poorest countries of the world, to make the most of any changes that are put in place. This includes capacity building, of the sort that Britain has supported over the years in Rwanda and elsewhere, in order to build successful revenue authorities that can create decent tax systems and consistently collect taxation revenues. That sort of action to build capacity in the developing world must go hand in hand with a new global regime for greater transparency, including registers of beneficial ownership.

It seems to me that this agenda, rightly, does not copy or try to replicate what happened at Gleneagles in 2005. Some of the promises made then have not been fulfilled. We should be disappointed by that, and we should continue to press those responsible to meet the commitments that they made back then. This agenda moves that a step forward. It talks about changing the rules, rather than just giving more. It is about making sure the rules are fairer, rather than just allocating more and more money from the developed world to the developing world.

Next week’s agenda could be a real turning point in a new global relationship. I wish the Government well and hope they will be successful. If they are, I hope that Northern Ireland will take as much pride in the 2013 summit as Scotland always will in the 2005 summit.

13:22

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, for securing this extremely timely debate ahead of next week’s G8 meeting in Northern Ireland. I am going to concentrate on just two of the three Ts that the Prime Minister identified as his priorities for the meeting: tax and transparency. On tax, it has long been argued that bilateral arrangements between countries were never going to deliver. Multinationals simply move to a different jurisdiction, cloak their activities in opacity and pay their teams of lawyers and accountants to devise ever more ingenious methods legally to avoid tax—legally in law at least, if not in spirit.

It is with great enthusiasm that I see the United Kingdom rising to the challenge of tackling tax and transparency in this forum. While these eight countries may not represent the collective might of the world’s main economic centres today—I must say that the presence of Italy seems a little anachronistic—the G8 is a good place to start. Any progress here will surely lay the foundations for a wider debate among the G20 countries, to be hosted by Russia.

The subject of the tax and transparency of large corporations generates public opprobrium like no other. A poll in Prospect magazine recently found that the public hugely disapproved of large corporate tax avoidance—some 88%—while their disapproval of wealthy individuals who cheated to avoid tax was significantly lower at something like 38%. Not paying VAT to the plumber or to the person who came to do the odd job, but paying cash, resulted in only about 6% or 7% of people disagreeing. That may not be entirely rational, but the lesson that I would draw if I were a large multinational is that the large corporations are in the firing line, not small individuals, as the public see them.

It is a hugely ambitious agenda for the Government to take on, and the challenge of breaking down corporate secrecy by seeking to require companies to disclose their beneficial ownership, which is asking who owns and controls them, is to be applauded. By setting up centralised registers with a clear line of sight, which is the minimum available to the law enforcement agencies—I would like public access as well, but I recognise that that may be too much to ask for at this point—the poorest Governments who have the greatest need will at least have the tool with which to begin to look for their stolen assets.

This would not be comfortable for the rich developed countries, nor for their associated tax havens. In the former category, we have the United States where much responsibility for corporate oversight is at state level so the Government may be less willing to act against the state of Delaware, for example, which according to the Economist has more companies numerically than its population. Small countries are the best known tax havens and unfortunately many are UK Crown dependencies or overseas territories. In this regard, the Commonwealth—I am aware that the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, will speak right after me, so I shall be careful what I say and mute my criticism as I know well to do when he is speaking—has been rather feeble at taking action as a forum that might have been well suited to this task. Among its members are some of the poorest countries of the world, where assets have been plundered and corruption is rife. The ability of these countries is heavily circumscribed by the lack of capacity—having sharp civil servants and revenue officials, schooled in the latest techniques of outright corruption and capable of spotting corporate tax evasion.

At the other extreme, among its members are the offshore banking centres—the relatively rich Caribbean islands where many of these companies are registered. We have only today heard the news that Bermuda, among the richest islands and a strong financial services centre, has announced that it will not sign up to the multilateral convention on mutual tax assistance. This is particularly frustrating as all three Crown dependencies—Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man—have come on board along with the Cayman Islands. Perhaps the Commonwealth could embed a programme of secondment of experts from the rich developed world. Perhaps even the architects of these opaque tax structures might go and work with those poor countries’ tax authorities to try to build up capacity to retrieve those billions owed. It may be a sobering experience for the practitioners in the City of London to see for themselves what the effects of their work reaps in the lives of the millions who are deprived of the benefits of their natural resources, for example.

Turning to extractive industries, US entry along with France and Germany to the extractive industry transparency directive is extremely positive. We cannot continue with a system where secret deals are struck by companies and Governments whereby huge amounts of profits disappear into the ether. It is evident that when we require companies to say what they have paid and Governments to disclose what they have received, it is harder to steal. The United Kingdom is right to press this case more vigorously despite the fight back in the US from the big oil companies. We have also seen the public dismay caused by corporate tax avoidance with the likes of companies such as Google and Starbucks. People often say that when a company provides essential services it is difficult to vote with your feet, as people have been able to do with Starbucks—sufficiently so as to make it volunteer to pay £20 million in tax. But volunteering is surely not good enough. People say that we cannot take similar action against Google because using a search engine is no longer an optional extra in our lives. However, we know that its profits are made from selling advertising and it should not be beyond the wit of the British public to reject the products of those Google advertisers until the company sees that it might need to come into line as its profits go south.

More importantly, those companies argue that it is for the United Kingdom legislatures and the Executive to come up with laws that prevent them from their propensity to avoid. To some extent, I have sympathy with that argument. When we get report after report from the Public Accounts Committee, as we have this morning, it is not entirely clear to me why the Executive—our Government, HMRC and the Treasury—cannot come back to Parliament with some proposals at least to attempt to get to grips with the problem of new and more innovative structures being developed by the financial services sector on a regular basis.

I will use my last minute or so to talk about Syria, which is also on the agenda. For those, like me, who believe that the civil war in Syria will be brought to an end only when the parties are prepared to come to the negotiating table, it is axiomatic that that will inevitably be brought about by success or failure on the battlefield. For the western world to stand aside from supplying arms when all around them are doing so—and to the most unfriendly groups in terms of our interests—it seems that as a country we have become entirely isolationist. That is something completely out of character with our history, our international standing and our permanent membership of the United Nations Security Council.

Moreover, we may eventually be forced to do so under our obligations in humanitarian law. So I say with some regret that I wish we would not go down the route on which we believe we have to ask Parliament to approve every step in our moves to deal with the Syrian imbroglio. I do not understand why an Executive—a Government—are appointed if they feel they are so weak in tackling what is clearly in our interests: ethically, morally and in humanitarian terms.

13:32

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, we should all be grateful to my noble friend Lord Trimble for initiating this debate and for his excellent opening speech. I also welcome siting this G8 conference in Fermanagh, which is one of the most beautiful areas of our United Kingdom. I got to know it well during my privileged time as a Minister in Northern Ireland for two and a half years. As my noble friend Lady Falkner has reminded us, the Prime Minister’s priorities for this G8 are the three Ts—trade, tax compliance and transparency. All are excellent issues which we should pursue with vigour.

I shall concentrate mainly on trade, although on the tax compliance issue I merely observe that obviously the efforts are completely commendable. However, in dealing with the hyper-connected world of unbelievable complexity in which we now live, it is difficult to see how Governments will ever catch up completely on a multinational scale with all the devices for avoiding and minimising tax liabilities. I leave your Lordships with this thought: we should be a little uneasy about the idea that the answer is more and more power to the tax-gathering authorities, on almost Bourbon levels. It will not solve the problems, which are undoubtedly there. The complexity is very great.

This leads to my main point which I want to share with your Lordships. In this transformed world, the character of trade has changed almost beyond recognition. Modern trade now follows a totally different path from anything that the world has ever seen. In today’s heavily interconnected world, it is no longer a question of products manufactured in one country being sold to another. The advent of the modern supply chain means that most manufacturers use components from a variety of different parts of the network and from different countries.

In these novel conditions, markets are simply no longer definable in terms of tariffs, quotas and other protections. On Europe, for instance, we hear the current mantra that the single market must be preserved, but the nature and meaning of the phrase “single market” has been completely transformed. The common trading platform of the world wide web is building up a new kind of supranational single market which is highly competitive and very transparent; it is criss-crossed by intricate supply chains and knows no regional boundaries whatever. The often asserted “fact” that the European Union is the world’s largest single market is in fact no longer correct. Cybermarkets on the world wide web are much larger. Pacific rim markets, including the vast market of China’s new middle class, are just as large, with the growing consumer markets of India, Brazil, Mexico, Turkey, Thailand, Vietnam, east and west Africa and a score of other places all coming on extremely fast behind.

Not only have old classifications such as “manufactured goods” ceased to have any statistical meaning but the trade in services—which 30 years ago was hardly worth mentioning—has taken centre stage with its knowledge-intensive products. The driving forces of international business have shifted into a world which is only dimly understood even now. It certainly was not at all understood all those years ago. In particular, the old idea that the path to free trade lay through negotiating down various tariffs and quotas has lost much of its meaning. It is the non-tariff barriers which are woven into countless procedures, customs and attitudes that now stand in the way. Their existence and persistence depends not on tariffs but on deep cultural factors and processes. The assault on them has to begin not with numbers or even with detailed negotiating facts but with the deployment of soft power in all possible forms.

That all, in turn, depends on the power to communicate and persuade and to open up our economies—for which, incidentally, the modern Commonwealth network, with its common working language, its vast and intimate professional links and its dazzling cross-cultural cross-pollination, is of course ideal. When listening to the Canadian Prime Minister just a short while ago I was a little sorry that, in an otherwise splendid speech, he did not mention that aspect. However, I agree totally with my noble friend Lady Falkner in her remarks that the Commonwealth, as a network, ought to be an ideal vehicle for the kind of proposals that she put forward on improving transparency and tax compliance.

We have to recognise, in the background to all the changes I am describing, that we are dealing with a world which is totally transformed, with 2.5 billion people on the internet at all times. Mr Eric Schmidt of Google estimates that there are now more mobile telephone subscribers on this planet than there are human beings. Every morning, 300 million Chinese go shopping online. We are doubling the data we draw out of the system for trade and other activities every nine months. I will share one further blinding statistic with your Lordships. Under the present system we generate in two days more data than were generated between the dawn of civilisation and 2003. We are, in short, in a completely transformed atmosphere in which trade is operating in totally different ways. That is one point that I hope will be understood by the G8 dignitaries when they gather at Enniskillen and in Fermanagh.

My second point is that there has been a lot of talk about the G8 being the top table, but it is not. There are many top tables today. The rioters last Sunday in the City of London were completely deluded when they talked about this being the power centre—the centre of wealth and riches and so on. Not even the G20 is the top table today. There is a new alphabet soup of organisations, alliances and networks springing up all over the planet, and they are beginning to exert as much power and influence as the old G8 and the other institutions of the 20th century, such as NATO, the UN, the IMF and the European Union, all of which are struggling to adjust. New sets of initials are swirling round in this alphabet soup which we have to adjust to: OIC, SCO, AU, GCC, AL, UNASUR, SAARC, ANMC, PIF and Caricom. I will not take time to spell out what all those stand for. I can see the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, shaking his head. Those are just a few. At the end of the list I put the largest and densest network of all, the Commonwealth network, which unites 2.25 billion people in a common system, as I have already described.

Procedures, attitudes, organisations and institutions have only dimly begun to reflect what is happening, and most of the media, with some brilliant and insightful exceptions, have hardly done so at all. A network world—for that is what it has really become—operates quite differently from one of hierarchies and blocs. Relationships emerge of a quite different quality; priorities are reshuffled; new elements, previously ignored, come to signify. Suddenly, in a digitalised network system, everyone has to be kept in the loop, small nations and large. More than that, the networks become part of the legitimising process. Agreement for international action at the United Nations has to be supported by agreement across the networks. All have to be consulted, won over and brought along, because all are now instantly, and in most cases continuously, connected.

I will end by saying that I hope that at Fermanagh our colleagues and leaders engage with these new issues, because they are entirely new, and do so with a suitable degree of humility, fully realising that in today’s world they are not the top table; they are only players in a far larger and newer scheme of things. They are not the bosses; they are the partners. They have to grasp the opportunity to understand that status, otherwise they could well find that they are not players at all but merely spectators.

13:41

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I, too, am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, for securing this important and timely debate. I will concentrate on the opportunities that the G8 summit offers for increased transparency through taxation and other means. Our chairmanship of the G8 is an opportunity to look at land rights, particularly for smallholders. I have been grateful for briefing meetings from the IF campaign, which has consistently raised these issues. I begin by praising the Government for the example they have set to the leaders of the developed world in their commitment to funding international development aid amounting to 0.7% of annual national income. Their example at a time of global recession must be a powerful factor in sustaining efforts which have proved so successful in saving the lives of children in the developing world.

The importance of strengthening transparency was brought home to me by visits to a sub-Saharan state made with other parliamentarians and funded by UNICEF, Save the Children and Tearfund. Our first two visits were made during the civil war of that nation. The country was blessed, or cursed, with plentiful supplies of diamonds and oil. We saw a nation where an elite of 100 families benefited from much of the vast mineral wealth while the multitude lived in squalor. The charity Transparency International drew attention in particular to the way that the Government of that country failed to share details of the deals they made with oil companies for extraction payments. British Petroleum decided to take a principled position and to make public information about payments, at some cost to its own business. My noble friend Lord Browne of Madingley was chief executive of BP at the time.

The wealth of the country went towards the healthcare of the 100 families, the education of their children in the United States and the United Kingdom, arms for the civil war, and other such areas. Meanwhile, in a large internally displaced people’s camp in the capital of that country, families had no water source and had to pay for the privilege of using tankers. This camp had been in existence for several years and simply been ignored by the authorities.

We saw homes built among giant dumps of rubbish and children playing among the refuse. We spoke to AIDS patients with no prospect of treatment. We heard of people being arbitrarily displaced from one area of the capital to make way for new, profitable developments. We also met the Minister for Health, a Mr De Almeida, a member of the 100 families, who had initiated the first national immunisation programme for children—no mean feat, given the continuing war and the lack of electricity and apparatus to chill the vaccines. So there were members of the Government who cared for the people.

We learnt that this nation was just one of many developing nations in which oil and diamond wealth allowed elites not to consult the people or even bother with their interests because they had no need of the taxes that their people might provide—no need for your taxes, no need for your votes.

I hope that I may encourage the Minister and his colleagues to push hard on the matter of tax reform and to improve transparency. Robust international agreement on these matters would reduce the power of political elites to drain the wealth of the nation for themselves, strengthen the arms of those politicians who wish to act in the interests of the people and do much to address poverty and hunger in the developing world.

We also met a women’s co-operative operating in the capital. The women had joined together to purchase food at better prices for themselves and their families. Through the work of the IF campaign, we have learnt of the importance of smallholders in the developing world in feeding the people, and I understand that most of those smallholders will be women.

I hope that the Government will also be looking for international agreements to strengthen the land rights of smallholders, thereby addressing the continuing scourge of hunger and malnutrition. In our briefings, we heard from Ricardo, a young man from a remote region of Tanzania. He was raised, as best she could, by his grandmother. He experienced malnutrition and there were no hospitals or services nearby to help to remedy the undernourishment. He suffered from kwashiorkor and other diseases related to malnourishment. Starved children suffer impairments that hinder their learning and, later, limit their capacity to work. We really need to do more to prevent hunger, and international treaties on land rights would be a good step in this direction.

I look forward to the Minister’s response. I ask him in particular how the Government will use their presidency of the G8 to push for greater transparency in land acquisitions, to ensure that corrupt deals are stopped and that people have the information that they need to hold Governments and companies to account. I also ask him whether the Government will be supporting greater transparency from Governments in developing nations so that citizens in those countries can hold their Governments to account for the money that they spend. I apologise for not giving him notice of those questions, and if he would write to me and put a copy in the Library, that would be very helpful.

13:48

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. He and I, along with my noble friend Lord McColl, took part in a wonderful debate last Tuesday, initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on overseas aid. We were on the same side in expressing our pride and delight at what was being done and at how this Government, in very difficult times, were making the care of the poorest in our world an absolute priority. We can take pride in that.

We have already seen the number of under-fives dying from preventable diseases fall quite dramatically over the past 15 years, from an average of 12 million per year to just over 6 million now. Last weekend, the Nutrition for Growth summit, which came out of the Olympic hunger summit and which the Prime Minister has followed along with his responsibilities on the UN high-level panel on finding successors to the millennium development goals, agreed yet more funds that can be directed to that task. That funding should ensure that a further 1.7 million children under five will be saved as a result of these initiatives by 2020. That is profound. I cannot think of anything else that could come out of the summit that could possibly match it. I take pride in our Government’s role. I was struck by Bill Gates’s declaration when he said that the leadership in this area by the Government and the Prime Minister,

“will be a source of British influence around the globe for years to come”.

That is something we can take immense pride in.

I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Trimble for securing this debate. I was delighted with his introduction and his invitation to visit County Fermanagh. With a following wind, I might reach County Fermanagh on 9 September having walked from London to Dublin—with a little help from the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company between Heysham and Douglas in the Isle of Man and then on to Dublin—to raise funds for Save the Children in connection with this initiative. It is what goes down in government circles as an aspiration. One need only look at my physique to realise that perhaps it is a triumph of hope over experience. None the less, I have always been an optimist; in fact my blood group is B-positive. I look forward to seeing County Fermanagh for many reasons this year.

I want to follow on from my noble friend Lord Howell’s fascinating speech on the global scene to make some structural points about the G8 and to seek some comments from the Minister, who I know is academically and politically well informed in these areas. Any gathering that seeks to achieve anything needs all those present to be capable of acting on what comes out of it. I want to test that a little further. Does the G8 as presently configured meet the global challenge? The group originated in 1975 at Rambouillet when it was convened by President Giscard d’Estaing to bring together the world’s most powerful industrial nations and market economies. It really followed the collapse of the Bretton Woods agreement, which had modified international exchange rates until then and a successor body was needed to bring the industrialised nations together to iron out global economic problems.

When it was initially convened, it was the G5, and then Canada was added the next year. Following the break-up of the Soviet Union, Russia became a member. Then the G8 was extended to the G9, with the EU being given observer status. I want to test whether we need to look at this again. What was right in 1975 does not necessarily reflect the world in 2013. Of the current top 10 economies in the world, China, Brazil and India are not present at the top table, although I accept my noble friend Lord Howell’s point that in a network world such terms are not entirely accurate. Is it right that the EU should have an additional voice at the G8 when it already has four very powerful voices in Germany, France, the UK and Italy, and yet the powerhouse of Asia has only one representative at the table, Japan?

Should the G8 fit more closely with the permanent members of the Security Council? Again, they were relevant in 1946, but with the absence of Brazil, Germany, Japan and India, the composition is limited when agreements are reached that require political and sometimes military action. In short, it seems entirely right that the most powerful political and economic countries in the world should have a special relationship. The helpful briefing document prepared for this debate contains the original 1975 Rambouillet summit declaration, which says:

“In these three days we held a searching and productive exchange … on the world economic situation, on economic problems common to our countries, on their human, social and political implications, and on plans for resolving them … The growth and stability of our economies will help the entire industrial world and developing countries to prosper”.

That makes a clear link between economic growth, the major economic powers and responsibility to the poorest in our world.

It was also refreshing to read the remarks made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister on 21 November 2012, when he set out what he wanted for the G8. He said that he wanted to,

“go back to those first principles … No mile long motorcades. And no armies of officials telling each other what each of their leaders thinks—or should think. Instead we will build on the approach taken by President Obama at Camp David this year: one table and one conversation”.

That is a very noble thing, which improves the chances of success. Those chances would be improved still further if the G8 included around the table those countries that are absent simply because at the point of formation they were not the economic powers that they now are.

In fact, there is a strong case that the permanent 10 members of the UN Security Council and the economic members of the G10 should be the same. If you ranked countries by economic power, we would have the US, China, Japan, Germany, France, UK, Brazil, Russia, Italy and India. If those countries were connected and represented around the table, the chances of solving some of our intractable international problems would be greatly increased.

13:57

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

My Lords, we should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, for this debate about the G8 in Northern Ireland. Of course, the G8 is more than about just trade. As the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, reminded us, it is about people, culture and science. Ireland’s unparalleled contribution to culture, with its great scientists and poets, is familiar to us all. A connection between trade and culture comes to mind. When Oscar Wilde went to New York in the 1880s, he was asked as he went through customs whether he had anything to declare. He replied that he had only his genius to declare.

Of course, I approve of the enthusiasm expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, for trade and the contribution of the European Commission in those negotiations, which has a dominant role in determining non-tariff barriers, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Howell. Without the role of the EC, we would not be in this position of influencing and participating in these extremely important global determinants of trade.

I will not repeat the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Bates, about a more realistic approach in the international world of negotiation, which I was delighted to hear. I will say only that the extraordinary issue of how the international framework of discussions should be changed cannot be solved by a collection of Prime Ministers sitting around the table. Surely it should proceed by initiating research programmes of many think tanks and universities around the world. The first step would be to put it on the agenda. If we could all agree that there should be an international research programme on that, involving all the countries the noble Lord mentioned, that would be a way forward. We cannot just have a snap decision, obviously. So are the Government thinking about this?

Secondly, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, mentioned, we live in a highly networked world. At the meeting in Brussels on Tuesday on global systems, organised by the European Commission, a colleague working on energy from University College put up a slide of Buckminster Fuller’s 1939 vision of a global electrical power network. As he commented, in fact we are now having a transfer of electricity from the UK, Europe, Russia to China; before long it will be India. While we are having these extraordinary technical collaborations, which are growing consistently, our political masters are blowing hot and cold about how we should collaborate.

It was rather the same in the Cold War when, for instance, all weather forecasts were exchanged. The only person who did not play cricket about weather was Saddam Hussein, who turned off the weather when he arrived in Kuwait. This was considered a very bad show. It had never happened before. The point is that there is a technical world and a political world. Fortunately, the technical world carries on, but of course we need to connect the two.

The other important point about the 2006 UK G8 meeting, which the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, emphasised, was that despite the terrorist bombing in London—which I heard from my office in UCL; it was very frightening for many people in London—important commitments were made to reducing third-world debt, increasing aid and tackling climate change. One of the important events of that G8 meeting was that the UK Government, with backing from many other Governments, supported a parallel meeting of global legislators that began a sustained programme of introducing new laws and regulations in countries to deal with climate change. That is an absolutely necessary underpinning of international agreements.

That work was extremely controversial when it began. For example, only in 2006, many countries regarded deforestation as a neo-colonial word to stop people cutting down trees. It just shows how concepts have developed and collaboration has increased. Now this kind of approach is very much supported by the World Bank, the FCO, and UN climate agencies. In fact, progressively the G8 has undertaken many of its projects in conjunction with other bodies. It is no longer regarded as just an exclusive body. In Italy in 2007, for example, I attended a remarkable meeting of G8 and UNESCO. It was a meeting on innovation and education which involved innovation from countries all over the world, such as pioneering development of inexpensive medicine in India. This progressive outreach of G8 is something we should continue. Again, this is why, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell said, the notion that G8 is just an in-group of a few leaders is not how it is working out.

I also want to make the sideways comment that Canadian legislators have taken a very strong lead in this idea of legislators working together on climate. I am afraid they have to regret the policies of their Government rather forcefully.

In 2012, the G8 under the United States chairmanship focused on the Arab spring and the contribution of science and technology with natural disasters. Its focus on the former has not been very successful, one might say, but its work on the latter was a continuation and a building on the work of the United Nations report in 2012 bringing together UN agencies and other parts of the United Nations systems in explaining the impacts connecting natural disasters and climate change as well world population. Again, the G8 helped to underpin a very broad United Nations-wide initiative.

This year, as we learn from the House of Lords Library paper, to which the noble Lord, Lord Bates, has also referred, the Government have organised some specialised conferences to deal with specialised issues. Some of them have only involved G8 countries—for example the G8 science meeting—but others have had a broad membership of civil society groups in the G8 and other countries. I hope that theme will continue. There were two separate meetings on nutrition and innovation. However, these two themes need to be connected. For example, there are remarkable improvements in India with people now using social media to learn about the best use of agricultural aids as well as acquire data about weather and climate. This is having remarkable effects. To start with, there was some resistance to the use of social media. The idea of giving people mobile phones in place of seed was, as it were, an issue to be discussed. Now we realise that these two things have to go together.

Despite the remark of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, about too much data, there is not enough data in African countries. African farmers are not collecting and measuring their rain. You must collect your rain if you want to know how your crops will develop during the season—knowing whether you have less or more rain. Many other areas of data are collected by many different agencies in African countries which are simply not exchanged. Some noble Lords will have heard me banging on about this before, but I still find it hard to get that sharp focus on the simple question of data exchange being accepted as an important issue by aid agencies and even DfID. They are very keen on global computer models, and so am I, but I am also keen on people measuring rain.

Finally, this G8 meeting, like others, raises issues and starts initiatives. I hope that the UK will set an example which other countries have not followed very much: reporting on the G8 meeting during the following year, so that we know what has happened. For example, we have our Library document, which covers initiatives this year, but it is difficult to find out how it connects to initiatives in previous years. That would be very helpful.

14:06

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, it is a particular pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, if only because it enables me to thank him publicly, after a long interval, for once telling me that a description of mine of the siege of Prague which I had incorporated into a debate on the arms trade was the only time he had ever laughed out loud while reading Hansard on a train. But his content today was much more noteworthy.

It is difficult to imagine any subject more germane for debate in this week than that which my noble friend Lord Trimble has selected, nurtured and so cogently introduced. It is a most felicitous overture that it should be an Ulsterman, one who has played so large a part in the Province’s history, who is doing it. The 198th anniversary of Waterloo may not be an ideal day for the G8 beginning its business, but at least it was another Ulsterman, in the person of Lord Castlereagh, who did the successful fixing at the Congress of Vienna a year later, and Derry’s/Londonderry’s year as City of Culture is a happy index to underline the happiness of the Prime Minister’s chosen and highly apposite location, through we must hope that 2013 will be an exception to the general Irish rule of thumb that in July Lough Erne is in County Fermanagh while, for the rest of the year, County Fermanagh is in Lough Erne.

For myself, I think that the Prime Minister is to be warmly congratulated on the priorities and preliminaries over which he has presided. From the letter he wrote to his international colleagues in the first week of the new year to the selection of Professor Paul Collier to advise the Government on the preparations and policies for the G8 summit, from the speech the Prime Minister delivered to the World Economic Forum in Davos on 24 January to his subsequent letter to the leaders of the UK Crown dependencies on 20 May about continuing to work in partnership with the UK on internal tax matters, he does not, at least to me, appear to have put a foot wrong. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has just said, the days prior to the full G8 conference are full of events that play to the conference’s themes.

Moreover, the Prime Minister has sought to keep the agenda simple and taut, with its emphasis on trade, on tax and on transparency. The critical issues contained in the letter of 20 May to which I have just alluded—tax, information exchange and beneficial ownership—were at the heart of the agenda. That does not mean that we should necessarily be too optimistic about securing all we seek. The Minister responding to this debate confessed earlier this week that the Government were not sure about the definition of a lobbyist, and some of the briefing we have received from that quarter for this debate has had a peremptoriness about it which some might think was a little unrealistic.

In Northern Ireland, in what we have called our peace process, we had to learn to be patient, but we never forgot what our long-term goal was, and applied patience and policies to achieve it. There is evidence from the overall plan that this has not been neglected here either. Of course the G8 are important, but so, likewise in these matters, are the G20 and their handling should be all of a piece, even if the diplomacy is complicated.

In its briefing for today, the House of Lords Library drew heavily on Professor Collier’s article in Prospect in March this year. However, the briefing uses only part of it, and I strongly commend the entirety of the article to anyone who has not yet read it. Professor Collier has been an Oxford Professor of Economics since 1993, a fellow of St Antony’s since 1986 and he has been director of the Centre for the Study of African Economies since 1991. The latter shows up in particular in the rigour and comprehensiveness of his analysis of the hazards and complexity of the solutions that these problems will require. Happily it is, of course, to his college’s St Antony that we pray when we have lost something and cannot find it. Not for nothing did the head of taxation at OECD aptly refer to the existing arrangements as “double non-taxation”. In the context of the subsequent transfer to the G20 meeting, it is a notable vindication of the Government’s employment of Professor Collier that he was also invited by the Russian Government, current hosts of the G20, to address the major conference on tackling corruption in government and business that they convened in April.

I want to speak only about international tax as that has constituted a serial thread in this Chamber over the past six months. It is a matter of some relief to me that of the UK Crown dependencies, one of those which has, to the best of my knowledge, never been a tax haven is St Helena, where a forebear of mine was a distinguished and gallant governor between 1787 and 1801 and where his nephew, whom he brought out as his secretary, remained until 1834. Thus, a family connection with the island was created that lasted not only through Napoleon’s stay, but in all for almost half a century. However, those British territories which are tax havens have understood our intertwined role and, in the case of Jersey, have given leadership in these tax considerations which the World Bank has adjudged a model.

The fact that Jersey also became the world’s largest exporter of bananas is an index of the sub-plots of this drama. It is 54 years since I was last in Uganda, where it was borne in on me that there are 250 different species of banana. It is 43 years since I was last in Jamaica, another island where bananas are not unknown. At the Negril end of the island there was then a waste—for the benefit of the Hansard writer, I am spelling that word with an “e” rather than an “i”—that was eloquently described on the map as the Great Morass. These are deep waters, Watson, as Sherlock Holmes used to say.

However, to be encouraging, and not least in the context of the G20, there are signs of light. America has made for transparency in reporting a legal requirement for US-listed resource extraction through the Cardin-Lugar amendment to the Dodd-Frank Act 2010. The European Parliament is considering an equivalent of Cardin-Lugar. At a European Council meeting in Brussels on 22 May this year, beyond the general conclusion on fighting tax evasion, it was agreed that rapid progress was needed, and I quote,

“to improve the EU’s agreements with Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Andorra and San Marino”,

in line with measures equivalent to those in the EU. Canada is following the United States in clarifying and tightening the application of its equivalent to the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, even if Canada has also opposed the introduction of mandatory disclosure standards; for instance, in relation to 330 minerals extraction projects in Africa.

Professor Collier has also earned our gratitude by trumping the African defence of questionable deals done—the defence being that it takes two to tango—by enlarging the duo to a threesome, as in, I think I recall from my youth, the dance “the dashing white sergeant” with a cast of a briber, a bribee and a facilitator. The latter word is one that my noble friend Lord Trimble may remember from the vocabulary of the peace process.

Facilitators can live a long way from Africa, including in this city. A recent experimental study conducted by Griffith University in Australia, which sent more than 7,000 e-mails to law firms around the world, requesting that shell companies be set up, contained a sprinkling of references in random e-mails that included incriminating information indicative of corruption, and offers of a premium on normal fees to maintain secrecy. Regrettably, replies to this random selection demonstrated a fall in the number of law firms demanding identity documents, which are internationally required to allow company owners to be traced. Law firms in G8 countries were not immune from this diplomatic—or undiplomatic—omission.

Professor Collier adduced practical and effective responses to these contingencies, but it remains the case that only 1,000 of the 280,000 annual reports of transactions that give grounds for suspicion in the UK are investigated. On the other hand, the fact that the US now recognises that present practices are adversely affecting US tax revenues is a powerful stimulus to remedial action. It is, however, a combined and united push that is required.

In closing, I go back to where I began, with the moral from our peace process in Northern Ireland. The most important imperative is agreement on the goal and unremitting attention to anything that will advance that cause. The Prime Minister, at his level, and Professor Collier at his, have done an outstanding job in setting out an agenda that addresses these matters. If we can match even a fraction of the results of the Congress of Vienna, we shall have done well.

14:16

[Baroness Jenkin of Kennington]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, for initiating this very timely debate. As we all know, the priorities for the G8 are to push for practical action to achieve fairer taxes, greater transparency and freer trade. These are essential actions in shaping the rules that characterise a fair and open global economy, ensuring that both developed and developing countries benefit. Like others in the debate, I congratulate the Prime Minister and his team on their hard work and commitment in driving the G8 agenda.

G8 summits have sometimes been seen as places where western nations have pointed the finger at developing countries, but this meeting is also about the G8 countries getting their own house in order. To make a difference to developing countries, it is vital to reach agreement on things such as tax transparency and trade. This will allow developing nations to know, when developed nations go into their country, what they are paying for the contracts, what those Governments are receiving, and what the real benefits are for the people of those nations.

As we have discussed, fairer taxation will be a key priority at the talks. It is important that we get political support for ensuring that global tax rules are fit for the 21st century. As the recent hoo-hah has shown, it cannot be acceptable for companies to create shadow shell companies offshore, effectively meaning that neither the developed nor the developing countries get the benefit from tax revenue that should come from profits.

If these companies are not paying tax on their profits, developed and developing nations cannot provide the public services and support that are needed. We do not underestimate the complexities and challenges, but it must be a key part of what we are doing at the G8 to say to companies, “You have to be transparent about who owns you, where you are owned and what tax you are paying”. As my noble friend Lord Brooke pointed out, research suggests that Jersey is now the world’s largest exporter of bananas. We know that that is not true and needs to be sorted out.

Greater transparency of taxation must also be accompanied by greater transparency of other financial flows. The UK, through DfID, has led the way in becoming the world’s most transparent aid donor. Through its role in the international aid transparency initiative, DfID is ensuring that UK taxpayers, and citizens in developing countries, will be able to track funds right through the aid chain to the point of delivery, ensuring that countries can better manage the aid that they receive, plan effectively, co-ordinate better and, most importantly, make sure that the money gets to where it is supposed to go.

Three of the other seven G8 countries—the US, Canada and Germany—are now also publishing their aid transactions, through the initiative. We hope that the remaining G8 countries will also prioritise the information needs of developing countries, and fulfil these transparency commitments.

Accompanying progress in aid, the UK and French Governments have made a joint agreement in the run-up to the G8 which will mean that both Governments will apply for formal candidacy of the extractives industry transparency initiative, which was set up to help tackle corruption, to improve the way revenues from oil, gas and minerals, are managed, and to make sure that people across the world share in the economic benefits of the natural resources in their country. I am proud that our Government are playing a key role in ensuring that people benefit fairly from the natural resources of the country in which they live. As the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, pointed out, mineral wealth in developing countries should be a blessing, and not, as so often in the past, a curse.

Finally, on transparency, last week the UK Government took a further step in enhancing transparency through the launch of the Lough Erne G8 Accountability Report. The G8 has never before produced such a comprehensive accountability report, showing it being open about where it has delivered against its commitments, and where it needs to do more. The results rate progress as good in six sectors: economic development; health; water and sanitation; food security; governance; and peace and security. It is satisfactory in three others: aid and aid effectiveness; education; and environment and energy. This report demonstrates that the G8 has made progress on its commitments but that there is more to do. It is well worth a read.

Greater transparency and a fairer tax system will go a long way to creating a fair and open global economy, but nothing can match the power of freer trade in improving people’s lives. The EU and the US together make up about a third of all global trade. As the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, said in his opening speech, a deal between these two regions could add—and we could discuss the figures—a huge amount to the EU economy alone. Trade between developing countries and within Africa is growing, and we should encourage that work further. This means continuing to support the multilateral system, and working through the WTO to agree a deal to sweep away trade bureaucracy. That alone could be worth huge amounts of money—$70 billion—to the global economy, and help trade to flow freely across the world.

I, too, highlight the work and achievements that have already happened as part of this year’s G8 agenda. On Saturday, as the noble Lord, Lord Bates, remarked, the Prime Minister held a high level meeting entitled, Nutrition for Growth: Beating Hunger through Business and Science. Undernutrition is a chronic lack of nutrients that can result in death, stunted physical development, and a lower resistance to illnesses in later life. It is the biggest underlying cause of death in those aged under five in the world and is responsible for 8,000 child deaths each day. It stunts the growth of children, reducing their potential, undermining their adult earnings by up to 10%, and in some countries reducing the size of the economy by 11% as a result.

The Global Nutrition for Growth Compact was endorsed by a total of 90 stakeholders, including 24 Governments and 28 business and science organizations. It secured new funding of up to £2.7 billion to tackle undernutrition up to 2020. This money will lead ultimately to enhancing the lives of those most in need: improving the nutrition of 500 million pregnant women and young children; reducing the number of children under five who are stunted, by an additional 20 million; and saving lives of at least 1.7 million children by preventing stunting, increasing breastfeeding, and better treatment of severe and acute malnutrition. As the noble Lord, Lord Bates, said, if nothing else comes out of this summit, that is a huge achievement.

This year’s G8 agenda is ambitious, but it is an agenda that has the potential to shape the rules leading to a genuinely fair and open global economy. Healthy, educated populations in poor countries will lead to poverty reduction and ultimately to trade with us here in the UK. We must ensure that all G8 countries work together over the next few days for the benefit of both developed and developing countries around the world.

14:24

[Lord Lexden]

My Lords, reference has been made by my noble friend Lord Trimble and others in this debate to the splendid place in which the summit is to take place. Perhaps a few further comments may be appropriate, since it is a source of such pride to those of us who are closely connected to the affairs of Northern Ireland, on which I shall focus.

Those attending the forthcoming summit will find themselves in one of the most beautiful parts of our country. The celebrated traveller and expert on agriculture, Arthur Young, was captivated when he visited it in the 1770s. He recorded,

“the promontories of thick wood, which shoot into Loch Earne, under a shade of a great ridge of mountains, have the finest effect imaginable … the whole unites to form one of the most glorious scenes I ever beheld”.

His enthusiasm greatly pleased his host, Sir James Caldwell, who, when they parted, sent him on his way with,

“colours flying, and his band of music playing … on board his six-oared barge for Inniskilling”.

A century later, the anonymous author of a tourist guide to Ireland, published in 1886, described the Fermanagh lakes as the “Windermere of Ireland”, with a pen dipped in purple ink, and went on to lavish praise on Lough Erne. He said:

“Studded with islets, which dip their luxuriant foliage in its waters, it adds the beauties of a sylvan stream to the placid sternness of a majestic lake”.

Now we look forward to the impressions of my noble friend Lord Bates, who is to visit Lough Erne later in the year; I am confident that they will be just as favourable as those in the 18th and 19th centuries. Of course, he must bear in mind always the splendid quotation given to us by my noble friend Lord Brooke.

Let us hope that the leaders of the worlds’ greatest economies appreciate the great good fortune of holding their summit in a place of such outstanding beauty. It has been said many times in the run-up to the summit that such a gathering in Fermanagh would have been inconceivable even a few short years ago. It is a measure of the great progress that Ulster has made towards political stability and success that the summit is taking place in a county that has historically had its share of bitterness and strife, arising from the fairly even balance of unionists and republicans in its population. It is also a measure of the personal commitment of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister to Northern Ireland’s union with Great Britain that he felt so strongly that the meeting should be held in this part of our country. The Prime Minister is a man of generous liberal instincts; he has pledged himself to work for a Northern Ireland in which all sections of the community are fully involved in shaping what he has described as a,

“shared future, not a shared out future”.

He is a unionist by deep conviction.

The prospect of a shared future for the people of Northern Ireland, which the Prime Minister is so determined to advance, would not exist but for the far-sighted work of so many people over recent decades. My noble friend Lord Trimble is conspicuous among them; without him, there would almost certainly have been no Belfast agreement 15 years ago, providing the cornerstone of the new dispensation in Ulster. Without his insistence on proper standards of conduct by members of the Northern Ireland Executive when he was First Minister, devolved government might never have been eventually restored on a firm basis.

It is well known that Northern Ireland faces formidable economic problems, which this House discusses from time to time, as indeed it should, avoiding the grave error made in Westminster after the creation of Northern Ireland in 1920, when the Stormont Parliament was left entirely to its own devices. The sources of Ulster’s economic problems are readily identified: the public sector is unduly large and the private sector unduly small. It is the central aim of this coalition Government in Northern Ireland to rebalance the economy, and in this they have the enthusiastic support of the Northern Ireland Executive. There are now some encouraging signs of progress. Yesterday’s fall in unemployment continues a trend for the fourth consecutive month, the first time that that has happened in six years. The Province’s unemployment rate is now in line with that elsewhere in our country.

Many believed that the devolution of corporation tax to the Northern Ireland Assembly would form a major element of the necessary economic rebalancing. A very low rate of corporation tax could enable Northern Ireland to compete more successfully for inward investment with the Republic of Ireland, where the rate stands at just 12.5%. The Northern Ireland Executive and the Treasury concluded their discussions on the matter last year but the announcement of the Government’s decision has been postponed until 2014.

Other means of stimulating the private sector are needed and the G8 summit could make a valuable contribution. My right honourable friend Theresa Villiers, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, has made that clear just today. She said:

“The Government has been working closely with ministers from the Executive to ensure that Northern Ireland gets the maximum benefit from the Summit. One recent study suggested that Northern Ireland could benefit from a £40 million boost to the economy in the short term, while two thirds of businesses believe the Summit will be positive or very positive. I know that a number of local businesses have been able to secure contracts as a result of the Summit”.

It is important, she went on to say, that,

“we do everything possible to ensure the Summit has a lasting legacy. So Invest NI is working with both the public and private sectors to highlight key inward investment and export opportunities. The Executive is planning an autumn investment conference. In addition the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and Tourism Ireland are intensifying efforts to promote the region in key overseas markets and to promote more tourism here. Fermanagh has huge tourism potential and we want to capitalise on it”.

I applaud the Government’s determination to ensure that the summit brings lasting benefits to the wonderful part of our country where it is to be held.

14:31

[Lord McColl of Dulwich]

My Lords, I too would like to thank my noble friend Lord Trimble for introducing this debate. I would like again to draw attention to the devastating effect that undernutrition has on millions of children throughout the world, as my noble friend Lady Jenkin has just emphasised.

The World Health Organisation estimates that half of those suffering from undernutrition are afflicted with diseases or parasites caused by a lack of safe water and a lack of sanitation. Efforts to increase access to these services must be a vital part of efforts to improve nutrition.

Apart from the direct disease link, access to water and sanitation services also affect women’s education and empowerment, which also impacts on their and their children’s nutrition. I was pleased that the UK commitment at the Nutrition for Growth summit this weekend recognised these links. I hope that this will lead to more effective integrated and cross-sector efforts to tackle disease and poverty.

When I visited Kathmandu recently, with the charity WaterAid, I was able to see at first hand these very problems of lack of sanitation and clean water. I also took part in my first demonstration. We marched through the streets of Kathmandu carrying placards with slogans addressing the need for toilets. It was my first venture into this kind of activity—it is never too late to learn.

Last week DfID published the Lough Erne accountability report, which reviews the G8’s delivery against its commitments and is a valuable tool for holding leaders to account on their promises. As it reports on the G8 as a whole, however, it hides individual members’ performance, and those that are doing less well are sheltered from true accountability. On water and sanitation, the report indicates that the G8 has made good progress both on maintaining political momentum and on increasing funding for the sector. It highlights the importance of the Sanitation and Water for All partnership as a way of improving aid for water and sanitation and shows that the G8 countries have increased their aid to water and sanitation projects, including a 16% rise in 2011. Crucially, it fails to show how and where this money is being spent.

G8 members have a rather mixed record on this front. They should direct aid to basic water and sanitation systems and to the countries and populations who are most in need. The majority, however, spend their money on large infrastructure projects. WaterAid’s report entitled Addressing the Shortfall states that less than 3% of French and United States water and sanitation aid goes towards creating basic systems. Germany does a little better, at 17%. As for Japan, only 38% goes towards basic systems but it is by far the biggest donor to water and sanitation aid. The UK is the notable exception, with 81% of its water and sanitation aid going to basic systems.

Moreover, aid for water and sanitation is focused on the wrong countries and seems to be associated with political allies and strategic relationships. WaterAid’s report, Addressing the Shortfall, shows that 20% of United States aid goes to Iraq, 12% of Germany’s aid goes to Turkey and 10% of France’s aid goes to Egypt. The countries in most need of water and sanitation include Côte d’Ivoire, Mozambique and Niger, but they are not among the top recipients of water and sanitation aid from any G8 country.

More than ever, aid must be focused on where it is most needed—the poorest and most marginalised. The United Nations high-level panel report rightly calls for the eradication of poverty by 2030 and for everyone everywhere to have access to water and sanitation. Can the Minister assure us that the Prime Minister will use his leadership of the G8 to continue to push the message that aid money should, first and foremost, go to those who most desperately need it?

14:37

[The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the opportunity to participate in this debate and to speak in the gap, not least because, due to my impending retirement and relinquishment of my See, this is the last opportunity that I will have to address your Lordships’ House. I express my thanks to the House for its unfailing courtesy and generosity to me during my brief years of service here.

I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, for his introduction to this debate. Fermanagh is very special to me. It was the home of my late and much loved father-in-law.

The Prime Minister indicated on 6 June that the G8 summit would be an important opportunity for him to discuss Syria with the other world leaders. While most of the attention at the G8 will rightly focus on the priorities set out by the Prime Minister and largely debated here today, it is nevertheless customary for the first day of the G8 to be spent on pressing international issues.

There is probably no more pressing concern than the crisis in Syria, which the Foreign Secretary has described as representing,

“the worst crisis affecting world affairs at the moment”,

and the biggest humanitarian crisis today. Few would disagree, and it is clear that for the G8 to meet without due attention to this matter would be unacceptable.

I welcome the remarks made by Justine Greening in the other place in respect of the United Kingdom Government’s commitment to both the short and long-term need for humanitarian aid. Further, with the United Nations appeal for £3.2 billion to deal with the humanitarian emergency, the G8 provides us with an opportunity for encouragement of greater participation in respect of that need. It is clear that we cannot stand by and do nothing.

I declare an interest as the chair of Conciliation Resources. There are competing narratives on Syria, not least in the provision of arms, and there is a real difference of opinion in this House, as evidenced elsewhere. However, the absence of a political settlement in Syria places particular strains on the resilience of neighbouring countries, particularly Lebanon. Every effort needs to be made by the G8 leaders to contain the conflict, and key to this is meeting the humanitarian needs of Syria’s refugees, which are already pushing to breaking point the current UN refugee protection system.

The G8 provides a rare opportunity to offer hope in an otherwise bleak landscape. It provides an opportunity for G8 members to resolve the differences that have emerged since the announcement on 7 May of a joint effort by the US Secretary of State, John Kerry, and the Russian Foreign Minister, Sergey Lavrov, to convene a peace conference to advance a political solution. I hope that the Minister can give this House some assurance that at the G8 the United Kingdom Government will give a real impetus to pursue this rigorously. As the former NATO Secretary-General Jaap Scheffer said, all parties, including the Assad regime and Iran, should be among those present on this occasion.

The G8 summit provides an opportunity to move beyond the paralysis and defeatism that has all too often marred international debates about Syria. I believe that the brutality and bitterness of the Syrian conflict, which mirrors all too many such conflicts in recent times, place before us a deep series of questions. What does it mean to be a human being? How do we value and place significance on every human life? I very much hope that the G8 will get behind the peace initiative. I hope too that we might at some point have a debate in this House on the issue and nature of the significance of human dignity and what it means to be human. Meanwhile, we express the hope that the leaders of the G8 will, as we implore them to, resist the bellicose rhetoric with its threat of regional spillover, and ratchet down the violence to bring an end to this ghastly conflict, with all its dehumanising realities.

14:41

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I join everyone in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, for initiating this debate and for his very powerful introduction. On behalf of these Benches I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells for his very considerable contributions while a Member of this House. We wish him well.

It is always sensible for a Government hosting a G8 to set out its priorities and achieve focus. The work leading up to a G8 summit needs focus, and the sequence of conferences feeding into the summit are a critical part of achieving a coherent outcome. As the noble Lord, Lord Brooke said, the Prime Minister trailed his programme in detail, especially, I though, at Davos. He has planned the whole process for a long time. It will be a key moment to judge his effectiveness, because in this case I am convinced that he will be judged by real outcomes.

Recent G8 summits have been choreographed as relaxed fireside chats among the leaders of the world, or at least among those who purport to be its leaders. Of course, these are the optics of such a meeting, but the tests are always of the substance. What should we look for in the final communiqué? What will success look like? The first objective is to create a major boost to growth through trade, which I think is a point also made by the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin. From 2008, following the sharpest decline in world trade since the great depression, the people of this country, as elsewhere, have been looking for a credible plan for growth. They will look to the G8 in its general review of whether that is possible.

In my view, the reality is that the Government are desperate for some good news from the G8. The United Kingdom has flat-lined. It looks much more like the long period of stagnation which the Japanese economy experienced than an economy on the move. David Cameron will want the G8 to point in a direction that he appears to be unable to achieve with his own Chancellor. So trade improvement is mission critical to this summit.

The combined IMF report and the latest Institute for Fiscal Studies report showed that the next two general elections will be played out to the accompaniment of the harsh tunes of austerity. There is no optimism here about debt reduction or other missed targets: they are all going to be missed. The limited data that the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, mentioned on inventory growth has to be placed in context, as I am sure he would do himself. It is about stocks rather than about finished manufacture and growth. The IFS states:

“We should expect not just 2015 but also 2020 to be an austerity election. Spending reductions are set to be a long-term feature of the UK's public finances, rather than a short and sharp experience”.

What on the horizon could lift that gloom? The best bets are on the potential free trade agreements between the EU and G8 partners. The EU/United States negotiations are due to start; if successful, the Government believe that this might add £100 billion to the EU GDP and more than £80 billion to the United States GDP—all stimulating world trade. If all the free trade agreements succeed, the boost to the world economy could be—these are big figures, I know—more than £1,000 billion. Noble Lords will have anticipated the point that I want to make. These are EU negotiations; what an extraordinary moment for the Government to embark on what may be a populist and gadarine policy that could sever the United Kingdom from the EU. That is now a palpable risk. No wonder that some eminent Conservatives look with dismay at the Eurosceptic brigade among them. What a time for those who want to liberalise and reform the global economy, as we do, to pander to the protectionism and nationalism of some of our vocal xenophobes.

I make one further point on the trade priority. Some fireside corner of this G8 must assess the consequences of the collapsed Doha round. The G8 continues to take far greater value from trade out of Africa than we put in. That point was made by a number of noble Lords. The mispricing and underpricing of African commodities is a motor for African poverty, disease and conflict. The inflated prices that the advanced world extracts for sophisticated, not always useful products; our unwillingness to transfer knowledge and capacity; and the willingness of some people to renege on the G8 promises at Gleneagles are all millstones on Africa. My noble friend Lord McConnell was right to remind us of the significance of what was said at Gleneagles, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, reminded us of the 0.7% as well, which is very important. There was progress at the hunger summit of 8 June, but if we fail Africa by not recognising its interests in world trade, that would be at best myopic and at worst a betrayal.

Tax evasion and avoidance is, rightly, the second major priority. While the warm-up discussions have revealed some big differences of opinion about where tax liabilities are generated and tax can be collected, these are key issues, and I applaud the Prime Minister’s intent on this. Whether individuals or Google-style companies are involved in evasion or avoidance, these matters need to be addressed. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, was right to remind of us of the nine multi-nationals in such a position. That is not a critique of fair tax planning, but it is a call for opposition to what may be the Canadian and Russian objections that could scupper the process.

David Cameron should come back to Parliament to report that he has secured five practical steps. First, we need a clear reform of country-by-country reporting where multinationals publish all the key information required to assess their tax liability—revenues, profits and taxes in each country in which they operate. Secondly, disclosure of tax avoidance schemes and systems should be extended to all global transactions. Thirdly, we should seek greater transparency in tax havens, disclosing information on who is hidden behind front companies and trusts. The G8 should launch a convention on tax transparency. Canada is not entitled to block such arrangements. Fourthly, the G8 global assessment of the impact of controlled foreign company rules with attention to developing countries would be helpful. I note that the Government are reluctant to get into this area but it is a global package that would strengthen their own G8 priority. Fifthly, we should seek reform of the corporate tax system to prevent profit shifting and the use of opaque havens. The current system lags far behind global economic developments and the wiles of specialists. I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said about the perhaps unconquerable barrier of complexity. Tax cannot be put into the “too difficult” box, although I thought what the noble Lord said was intriguing and I intend to read and study it with great care.

Will the Minister respond positively to those five suggestions, designed to bolster the G8 priorities of the Government? The points made about the impacts on transparency are also a priority. We support the focus on land and extractive transparency, and progress would unquestionably be a blow to corruption. I join in commending the African Union’s land policy initiative and commend Kofi Annan’s reports on the imbalances of trade which are impacting on Africa. I am tempted to recommend an initiative on transparency and anti-corruption in international football, but I might be straying a touch too far today.

In general, this is the right time to push for anti-corruption agendas. Many will advise the Prime Minister not to push too hard in case some of those to whom he speaks recoil. Russia’s interests in Cyprus have been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble; the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, has mentioned some of these matters and a quite remarkable set of statistics from Delaware. A commitment to transparent public registries would transform matters. It would never be easy again for international criminals to work the way that they do and have the freedom that they have had. We should not settle for a lesser or cosmetic solution. I hope that the Minister will assure the House that the Prime Minister will put on all appropriate pressure, including on the United Kingdom’s overseas territories.

I started by commending focus and I finish with a word of caution about too narrow an agenda. The G8 provides opportunities to share thinking and it would be a waste if environmental degradation, nuclear proliferation and the death spiral of Syria—as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells just reminded us—were not covered properly. The G8 needs to prepare for the tough issues. On all these priorities my greatest anxiety and, in my view, the gravest test for the Prime Minister, lies in split-personality thinking in the United Kingdom Government.

We say that we want co-operation on fundamental propositions from nations with whom we appear to want no real or deep relationship. We tell them that they are consistently wrong about a wide spectrum of things. We raise three melodramatic cheers for every veto we exercise, whether it is a real one or just theatrical. We do not seem to understand that partners become less inclined to work with us each time that we do that. We need to consider that if we want partners, let us behave like partners. This will be the test of the contention of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, about whether the Prime Minister has put a foot wrong. The dance is not yet over. I wish the Government well and I put these matters in plain terms precisely because I wish them well. There is nowhere better than Northern Ireland to face and resolve the toughest issues.

14:53

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I wish to add my regret that, sadly, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells is about to retire. Over the past week, I have been thinking about the first Bishop of Bath and Wells whom I was aware of, who stood on the right of the Queen, I think it was, as she was crowned. In some ways I regret—though in others I am glad—that the current right reverend Prelate has not been able to assert that privilege during his time as a Bishop. We shall miss him, but the Bishops keep the House of Lords young, as they say.

Before moving to other topics in this debate, I want to answer the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, on the coalition Government’s attitude to international and European co-operation. I say this as a Liberal Democrat, but what I have heard from the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary in recent weeks has been outstandingly clear: our national interests rest in international co-operation and in remaining a full and committed member of the European Union. I have heard no such clear statement from any member of the shadow Cabinet.

If we are to have responsible opposition, we also need a clear indication from the Labour Party of its commitment to staying in the European Union and its position on a referendum. We need clear cross-party support in the national interest. I see that the noble Lord is unhappy with my criticism, but I look forward to hearing a clear statement from the Labour Party on those issues. I am happy with the coalition position on European reform and with the way in which we are moving forward with the balance of competences exercise and I reject the idea that we are being blown about by the right-wing press and UKIP.

This has been a good debate in terms of the G8’s broad agenda, particularly about going to Fermanagh. To hear the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, refer to Fermanagh as “tranquil” is an indication of just how far Northern Ireland has moved. Enniskillen was anything but tranquil 20 years ago. Fermanagh and Tyrone were bandit country during the Irish emergency. It is therefore tremendous that the Prime Minister was determined to bring the G8 to Northern Ireland this year to showcase Northern Ireland to the international media, to foreign Governments and as a place to invest.

I note to myself that it is now time for Yorkshire to start lobbying for the G8 summit to be held there when it comes around in eight years’ time, for not dissimilar reasons. Meanwhile, the Tour de France will have to do for next year. I am already discovering that it is impossible to get a hotel anywhere on the route of the Tour de France for next year, so Yorkshire is already beginning to do quite well in that regard.

Let me turn to the substance of what the G8 leaders will discuss when they meet next week and address the question of whether the G8 is the right body to meet. The noble Lords, Lord Bates and Lord Howell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, raised questions about whether we should now be going with some other body. It is of course always easier to carry on with what you have than to carry on with something new. However, I would stress that in many ways this is the best group we have because it is the only group we have to focus attention on strategic global issues, whether they are economic, political, developmental or environmental.

As the noble Lord, Lord Bates, remarked, the G8 had its origins as the G4 in 1975, when three major European Governments were trying to bring a then rather distracted American Government back to discussing how we managed the global economy. It was then expanded to become the G7 with Italy, Canada and Japan—and with the EU playing a role, because the EU as a collective body has competence in matters of trade, which has always been very important for the G7 and G8. Russia was added in the mid-1990s when, as a post-communist country, it was becoming a much more open society and moving towards a rather more open market economy. This is a group, after all, which is committed to free institutions, open markets and open societies. That is one reason why, as I was saying at the Dispatch Box yesterday, we have some concerns about the direction in which Russia is going. These eight countries are responsible for 50% of global output and 66% of global trade, so in many ways they are still the reliable top table at which one has to discuss many of these matters, in a rather messy response to the need for some form of global governance among major sovereign states.

There is of course the G20 now, the larger grouping which includes the Chinese, the Indians, the Indonesians, the Brazilians and others. The G20 will be meeting in St Petersburg in September, under Russian chairmanship, and many of the issues to be discussed among the G8 will be pursued further there. We all have to recognise that in different ways China, India, Indonesia and Brazil are still reluctant to take on and share the full responsibilities of global leadership and that much of the agenda for global co-operation and future global regulation thus remains to be negotiated between European countries, the European Union and the United States, then to be accepted by others.

The G8 has of course grown more institutionalised. It has grown larger and its agenda has grown amazingly wide. The numbers of officials attending have mushroomed and our Prime Minister is attempting to bring back direct conversation, intimacy, informality and a focus on getting things done. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, queried the outcome and the follow-through. One of the British initiatives this time is to have an accountability report to look back at former G8 pledges and see what has been done. We have produced a report with checks on what we think has been achieved, or moderately half-achieved, and what has been left undone. It is not that bad a record, actually. Of course, as in all negotiations between Governments, there are some things on which you simply cannot manage to make progress, but we have made a lot of progress, particularly on global development.

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

Will this report be in the Library?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I do not know whether it is yet in the Library. It was published two days ago. I will do my best, looking hopefully at the Box, to put it in the Library as soon as we can. I must say that I have been briefed by a number of officials who are working incredibly hard for the G8 exercise. I am very grateful that one of them has been able to spare a bit of time out of her 14-hour day to come here and assist me in this and I wish to add my compliment on her remarkably clear handwriting.

The G8 is an informal directing group and the discussions within the G8 then feed out to others. On the final lunch the secretaries-general of the IMF and the OECD will be there and the tax transparency agenda will be carried on quite largely through the OECD. The land ownership agenda, which was mentioned by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, will be carried out partly through the Food and Agriculture Organisation. Discussions are part of a very intricate network in which we work as we can with others. There are a number of associated conferences now. We have had a Foreign Ministers’ G8 with very active engagement from the Russians on issues such as Syria and elsewhere. We do not always agree but we are actively discussing these issues. There is also the Science and Innovation conference mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. The Nutrition for Growth compact has been signed by 24 Governments from the developed and developing worlds, 22 business groups, four science organisations and a number of major international non-governmental organisations.

Sessions at the G8 will cover the global economy, including trade, and the very important bilateral negotiations which have been taking place between the EU and Japan and which will be taking place between the EU and the United States. There will be a session on international political issues and foreign policy, a session on countering international and cross-border terrorism, a session particularly devoted to tax and transparency, and a final lunch at which the delegates will be joined not only by the secretaries-general I have mentioned but also by a number of other senior figures from Africa and South America.

The Prime Minister has focused on the three Ts—trade, tax and transparency. I have already spoken about trade. We very much hope that we will be able to get back to a global trade agenda with the World Trade Organisation. However, some of the leading members of G20 have not been particularly co-operative on a global trade agenda which is why we are having to pursue regional trade negotiations. If we are able to achieve a trade agreement between the United States and the European Union to follow those with Japan, Korea and Canada, we will have made a major contribution to global economic growth. This is about the rules which shape global trade and the fairness and openness which characterise them.

We have also discussed tax. Britain has a particular responsibility here because of the number of overseas territories and Crown dependencies which have become offshore financial centres. The Prime Minister has been in contact with all of our overseas territories and Crown dependencies. They have now all agreed on a number of measures. Bermuda is still discussing the question of a multilateral convention on mutual assistance on tax matters but we hope to resolve that issue with Bermuda before we have sorted out the complete agenda for the G8.

I was asked about the fourth money-laundering directive. This is an EU measure and proposals are currently being negotiated by member states and the European Parliament. They would require that companies obtain information on their beneficial ownership, hold this information and make the information available to competent authorities. The European agenda, the global agenda and the G8 agenda overlap and complement each other. In all of this one has to recognise that tax sovereignty and global markets do not go easily together. That is why we have to pursue these international negotiations on tax transparency in order to regain a degree of our tax sovereignty. The Government have been relatively successful over the past three years at regaining tax from multinational companies. I am told that HMRC has collected more than £23 billion in extra tax since 2010 through challenging large businesses’ tax arrangements and tackling transfer pricing issues, and we continue to hope that we will raise a good deal more through tax transparency.

As noble Lords know, transparency is about not only tax but beneficial ownership. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, asked particularly about transparency over land tenure. The problem with land tenure in developing countries is that often records do not exist, so in terms of technical assistance, as part of bilateral or multilateral aid programmes, helping these countries to establish clear records of land tenure is a necessary part of what we do to establish who owns what, where foreign companies are buying in and how far we protect local farmers on their own. There is very careful work on greater transparency with less developed countries, starting with proper land records.

On 22 May the Prime Minister announced that Her Majesty’s Government intend to sign up to the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative, which was set up to tackle corruption, to improve the way in which the revenues from oil, gas and minerals are managed and to ensure that people across the world share in the economic benefits of natural resources in their country. A lack of transparency there, as with land transactions, is very much part of the obstacles that we have to overcome in ensuring that free trade and open markets benefit everyone, including the poor and weak countries, which are often open to these sorts of extractive industries in particular.

The lunch on Tuesday will focus particularly on Africa, looking at the millennium development goals and, as we have already mentioned, talking about the larger issue of nutrition. I am disappointed that we are not paying more attention to population on this occasion. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, is disappointed that we are not spending more time on climate change, although there will be preparations for a major conference in 2015 under different tutelage—the UN Committee on Climate Change—which will be a main focus.

With regard to our political discussions, I was asked particularly about Syria. At Prime Minister’s Questions yesterday, the Prime Minister said:

“We should use the G8 to try to bring pressure on all sides to bring about what we all want … which is a peace conference, a peace process, and the move towards a transitional Government in Syria”.—[Official Report, Commons, 12/6/13; col. 331.]

This has been a worthwhile debate. I was nervous that the agenda of the G8 was so wide that I would be unable to cope with many of the questions that would come in. I sat here trying to imagine the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talking to his Soviet colleagues during the Cold War about eastern and western approaches to weather forecasting and whether there was a Marxist approach to it as well as a capitalist one.

We have looked back to the previous UK-sponsored G8 in 2005. Gleneagles was a great success and helped to push the G8 on to the development agenda to a much greater extent than before. It is still managing to push that forward. This Government, as the Nutrition for Growth compact shows, are still attempting to use the combined efforts of the developed democracies, non-governmental organisations and international organisations as such to promote a more open global market and a more equitable global society.

We look forward to a successful G8 summit next week. This is of course only one in a long series of heavy intergovernmental negotiations, but Her Majesty’s Government are using this opportunity to press forward what I hope all noble Lords will agree is a very worthwhile and constructive global agenda.

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

Will the Minister respond on the issue of water? This is the United Nations International Year of Water Co-operation and the water issue has not really had the emphasis it should have had, as was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord McColl.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, has sponsored one or two conferences on water in the Middle East in the past year with the support of the Foreign Office. We are all well aware of the many complexities of water. Those of us following the argument between Ethiopia and Egypt over the dam on the Blue Nile will know that water wars are not necessarily too far away. There are a great many complications and the Government understand that not only clean water but also cross-border water supplies are very important matters for us to deal with. It is not neglected simply because it is not a major item on this year’s G8 agenda.

15:10

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, it is now my pleasant duty to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. It has been a very interesting debate to listen to. It has been very interesting to see how various contributions complemented each other while some brought in completely new topics and new thinking. I have very much enjoyed listening to it as I am sure all noble Lords here have. I am tempted almost to comment on each contribution but I will eschew that temptation for two reasons. First, I can see that the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, is in her position ready to go on her debate and I do not wish to detain her. Secondly, my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire has been so comprehensive in his reply to the debate that he has done that job for me. He has also given us a very good insight into what will happen in the next few days in Fermanagh. Finally, I want to add my thanks to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells for his contribution to this House. I am sure all of us here are glad that we have had the opportunity to hear his last contribution in the House.

Motion agreed.

Economy: Culture and the Arts

Thursday 13th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

15:12

Moved By

[Baroness Wheatcroft]

To move that this House takes note of the importance of culture and the arts to the economy.

[Baroness Wheatcroft]

My Lords, it gives me huge pleasure to be here to introduce this debate on the importance of the arts and culture. I am absolutely committed to that cause and I am delighted to see so many of you here at this stage on a Thursday afternoon to discuss this important subject. I am also delighted to see that my noble friend Lord Gardiner of Kimble will be responding and I hope he will not mind if I remind the House of his response to a Question for Short Debate earlier this year. He said:

“The role of art and culture in the wider economy cannot be overstated”.—[Official Report, 29/1/13; col. 1531.]

They are wise words. I completely agree.

At this stage, I should declare my interests in this subject. I am a deputy chairman of the British Museum and a member of the board of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions, and for quite a while I was a trustee of the Albert Hall. I take this subject very seriously and in this country we have the most amazing and bountiful supply of arts and culture. At every level and for every taste, this country has something to offer.

Last summer, alongside an extraordinary sporting triumph, our country put on a glittering display of drama, music and exhibitions that would have done any nation proud. We had theatre productions in every language you could possibly think of and a few more besides and what is more, they attracted great audiences.

We do culture well. That is why I am really quite surprised that earlier this week the brilliant architect, the noble Lord, Lord Rogers, was quoted as saying that in the UK:

“We haven’t quite got culture as a concept”.

I beg to differ and I am absolutely convinced that this afternoon that you will all show him that we have indeed got culture. We appreciate his architecture, but we appreciate a lot more besides.

I look forward to some fascinating contributions from such a mix of people with backgrounds in various industry and arts organisations. I am sure that they will all come from different angles, because culture is a broad umbrella. The critic Raymond Williams suggested that it was a “structure of feeling”. I would not dare to go into definitions such as that, and it is probably better not to try. All I know is that you can listen to a Beethoven symphony, which you can hear played to perfection in this country, go to a Mozart opera, which will be done as well as anywhere else in the world, go to an extraordinary exhibition, whether of art at Tate Modern, antiquity at the British Museum, or in a modern gallery—each to their own. Your particular brand of culture may even be Coldplay or Blur, or jazz, but you will find it all in this country, and done to perfection. We are incredibly lucky to have that, and we have to nurture it.

We have a very successful film industry, one of the best in the world, which produces serious and art house films. We have broadcasters—I see my noble friend Lord Grade here, who knows far more than I about that sector—and we can export their productions and earn huge amounts of money for this country. My noble friend who is responsible for Downton Abbey cannot be with us this afternoon, but we all know what he has done for drama on TV.

Today, however, we are not here to extol the mere beauty and enjoyment of the arts, but to celebrate what the arts and culture do for our economy. Therefore, I will begin by wholeheartedly endorsing the view of Ed Vaizey, the Minister for the Creative Industries. In March, he said,

“our creative and cultural sector is such a vital element in delivering economic growth, by encouraging economic investment through tourism and business”.

More wise words from our Ministers, and at such an important time, too. Our arts and culture benefit the economy in so many ways. They create jobs, provide training and are innovative, and the innovations they make often transfer into industry and export for the service sector. Of course, the arts also provide an enormous stimulus for tourism. I will give a few statistics. The numbers in tourism are huge. Inbound tourism is the UK’s third-largest earner of foreign exchange, according to DCMS. Tourism contributes £115 billion to UK GDP. It employs 2.6 million people, of whom 27% are under 25. We cannot overestimate the importance of those young people having jobs. When half the youth in Spain are now out of work, how important it is that we keep our young people working.

Why do tourists come to Britain? Anyone who has been outdoors today knows that it is not because of the weather. They come because we can offer a unique experience. We have heritage which nobody can better, and, as I have said, we have arts on a phenomenal scale. According to the Arts Council, culture and the arts support a creative sector that by 2020 will have grown by 31%. The UK has the largest cultural economy in the world as a proportion of its GDP, and that brings in the tourists. The National Brand Index survey, which covers 20 countries, found that 57% of respondents said that history and culture would be a motivating factor in their decision about where they would go. Half of them said that they would be sure to go to a live music concert if they came to Britain, and 38% said they would go to an opera, a ballet or the theatre. Museums and galleries were a huge draw: 48% of international holiday visits within England include visits to the museum, and 25% go to an art gallery. They come to Britain because of the arts and culture we can offer them.

Museums and galleries are the most popular visitor attractions. There are 50 million visits a year to our national museums alone. According to the Association for Leading Visitor Attractions, more than half the UK’s adult population—many of whom are tourists, of course—visited a museum or a gallery during the past year. That is a very cheering statistic. Remarkably, the cultural Mecca that is Exhibition Road receives more visitors in a year than Venice. The wonderful museums that we have there—the Natural History Museum, the Science Museum, the V&A—bring in tourists in numbers that beat Venice.

At Oral Questions yesterday, we heard of the delights of the nation’s regional museums. There was a spirited defence of the museums that the Science Museum is suggesting might be in danger if it sees its grant cut. Our museums and galleries have learnt to be innovative. Look at what the V&A is exhibiting today—David Bowie’s costumes. It is a brilliant exhibition and is bringing in a completely different audience. Look at Tate Britain and its new hang, looking at paintings chronologically; making more sense to a new generation of visitors. We have learned to approach culture in new, innovative ways.

Noble Lords will have noticed the timing of this debate. It is of course important that we are having it 260 years after the start of the British Museum. It is even more important that we are having it just days before the announcement of the next spending round. I am no spendthrift. I do not want to depress you on a Thursday afternoon, when it is miserable outside and we are having such an uplifting talk, by mentioning the deficit—but it hangs there over all of us. It is hanging now over the arts and cultural sector.

I do not envy my noble friend and his colleagues in government in having to try to deal with that. I support their efforts wholeheartedly. There is, however, time for special pleading. Before those spending cuts are finalised, I want to make a plea for our greatest institutions—our greatest drawers of tourism. If there is little cash to be shared around, sometimes the more deserving cases have to be favoured. In the interests of tourism, we have to be brave and favour the centres of excellence.

Of course, many will take exception to this. They can all argue their case, but from the statistics that I have given it is unarguably the case that it is the major attractions in London that first of all draw in the tourists from overseas. They can then encourage those visitors to go elsewhere once they are here, but London is where they come first. Those institutions in London do more than their fair share for the regions and the economy of those regions.

As I mentioned, I am a trustee of the British Museum. The British Museum is an extraordinary asset for any country to have. I would argue that it is unique in the world. It has 6 million visitors a year, with another 13 million visitors through its website. Its role is not just to exhibit, although its primary role is of course the conservation of that extraordinary collection. It is there also to work on soft power. The museum is doing amazing work all over the world. In Basra, it is helping to create a national museum from the remains of one of Saddam’s many palaces. In India, it is working with local curators to teach them, to learn from them and to build bridges. In Abu Dhabi it is working with the locals who are building their own museums. Wherever you go in the world, the British Museum and our other arts institutions are building relationships that are hugely important in the role of the UK in the developing world and the world at large.

Arts and culture are for all. They are for all internationally and for all in our country. Last year, organised school parties took 240,700 children into the British Museum, and many more into other museums and art galleries throughout the country. Unorganised—probably in every sense of the word—parties took many more children into these museums. Family parties constitute a big part of the audience. It is not just a select, elite group who go to these institutions. When the museum staged its Hajj exhibition, 48% of the visitors were Muslims, largely from this country. As I say, our arts and cultural institutions are for all—and, of course, they are for all because they are free.

I am sure that, like me, your Lordships are committed to our great museums being open to members of the public, wherever they come from, free of charge. There will, however, be a struggle for some of these institutions to remain free if they see their grant-in-aid cut, cut and cut again. Already, in real terms, many of them have seen their grant reduced by 25% in the past few years as spending cuts have hit. Some of them would claim that they are close to the breadline.

To wind up, I can probably best cite a recent article in the Spectator which quoted one man’s view on the charging issue. He said:

“Suppose a Chilean tourist arrives at the British Museum to inspect some of his cultural treasures. He gets in for free and he’s got plenty of cash in his pocket so we can fleece him later at the café”.

The British Museum would never fleece anybody; our cultural institutions do not behave in that way. However, of course, they take the opportunity when they can to make money on their own account. In closing, I should tell you that the gentleman who made that observation was the Culture Minister himself, Ed Vaizey.

15:27

[Lord Puttnam]

My Lords, I am sure I speak for all noble Lords in thanking the noble Baroness for the way in which she has introduced this afternoon’s debate. Her enormous economic credibility as well as the perfect timing make being part of it very welcome.

One of the early and important achievements of the previous Labour Government—in fact, of the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, who I am happy to see in his place—was to put the creative industries firmly on the map and to put in place effective policies which helped those industries to grow. That is one reason, for example, why the film industry is now able to contribute £4.6 billion to the GDP of this country—something like five times the comparable figure 20 years ago.

As I have argued previously in this House, the creative industries are sustainable and offer added value in a way that is simply not true of, for example, the financial services. The noble Lord, Lord Smith, was also able to put in place free admission for museums and galleries, and I was delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, remind the House only yesterday that this remains his Government’s policy.

We should also give credit to the party opposite, notably the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, and Sir John Major, for ensuring that a portion of the proceeds of the National Lottery was made available to the arts. Later this year, we will be celebrating the 20th anniversary of the National Lottery and perhaps it is time that we took a fresh look at how the proceeds of the lottery are distributed so as to ensure that the arts, as one of the good causes, really is getting the greatest possible share.

Few would argue that the opening ceremony of last year’s London Olympics was anything other than a wonderful showcase for the energy and creativity of this country. That is why it grieves me to predict that history is likely to condemn us for what I believe to be our failure to build a significant legacy off the back of that extraordinary opportunity. Why does having the drive and determination to capitalise on the economic contribution offered by this nation’s creativity matter so much? It matters because other countries are investing considerable sums of money in their own cultural activity and they realise the impact it has on their reputations and their economic growth. Unless we are determined dramatically to raise our own game, we are likely to be condemning ourselves to the status of one of the global also rans.

Am I exaggerating? How about this for an example of seriousness of intent: about a dozen years ago, the South Korean Government, including their educational system, became concerned that while their industrial base was growing well, the creativity, within which so much intellectual property and value added reside, was not developing at anything like the same rate. They decided to invest around $1 billion over a number of years in developing and enhancing what was termed their creative capacity. This programme has been an unqualified success, to the point at which South Korea is now the powerhouse of the entire Asian entertainment products industry; everything from music, to movies, interactive games and television soap operas.

Far from becoming complacent, this year their Ministry of Culture, Tourism and Sport has been given a budget of $3.5 billion, of which $295 million is specifically earmarked for the promotion on the international stage of what they call Hallyu, or the Korean wave of entertainment products. That is almost $300 million simply for its international promotion. That is a very grown-up and serious competitor for the UK to think about taking on.

Here at home, as your Lordships heard from the noble Baroness, grant-in-aid is obviously in short supply. That is why lottery investment has become all the more important in nurturing and developing arts and culture, and driving the kind of innovation that we will need if we are to prove a match for the ambitions of South Korea, Singapore and other Asian nations.

However, we have another fantastic asset which we can draw upon to maximise our contribution to the arts. I refer, of course, to the BBC, which has been one of the cornerstones of support for every kind of art form—music, dance, drama—over many decades. The BBC’s current charter expires at the end of 2016 and, as with the lottery, I argue that this represents a perfect opportunity to review the way in which the corporation supports the nation’s cultural output, and to explore ways in which that contribution can be made even stronger and more effective, notably by helping to invest in new talent and new skills, both of which we are already desperately in need of. As I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Grade, and others will affirm, unless industry and government find ways of working together to invest in our skill and talent base, we will all too quickly become unfit for purpose in a digital world that is changing with quite ferocious speed.

I also think that we will need to find new ways to help support the arts. As many of your Lordships will be aware, there is enormous growth in the gambling industry, particularly online gambling, perhaps even, to some extent, displacing money spent on our National Lottery. I would like to think that the proceeds of a point of consumption tax on online gambling could, for example, be used to supplement the nation’s investment in arts, sport and culture. Many of the companies that operate in the online gaming space are based offshore, therefore making very little contribution to the overall, long-term prosperity of the country. By finding an effective way to use the proceeds of an enhanced tax on gambling to support arts and sport, we would be harnessing what may well prove to be a worrying rise in gambling activity, and allow it to become something which is of economic, social and cultural value to the nation as a whole.

Obviously, any such proposal would require total cross-party support. However, a gambling Bill has just received its First Reading in another place, and I think we would be making a massive mistake if we were to allow that Bill to gain Royal Assent without at least considering its implications and the possibilities that I have just suggested.

I cannot close without reminding the House that the value of the arts and culture can never simply be reduced to economics. Forty years ago, conversations, and even policies regarding the arts and culture, were focused almost entirely on their social and educational value. By drawing attention to what we now call the creative industries, we managed to make the case that they were also making a significant economic contribution to the nation. The case has been made even more strongly by the noble Baroness.

However, I am concerned that this Government are in danger of allowing the pendulum to swing too far in the direction of measurement by balance sheet. This was exemplified for me by a recent speech by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport in which arts and culture appeared to be viewed almost exclusively through an economic prism. Important as their monetary contribution is, the value of arts and culture can never be reduced to pounds, shillings and pence. They represent something infinitely more valuable than that. They are one of the cornerstones of any society that wishes to consider itself truly civilised—the one important means by which we are able to improve the quality of life for every single member of society—and in debating their economic value, it is very important that we never allow ourselves to forget that.

15:35

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, the second debate this afternoon is a happy foil to the one that preceded it, and we owe that agreeable conjuncture to my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft, who was admirably equipped by experience and avocation to launch it successfully. The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, has forgotten more about these subjects than I shall ever know. It is a privilege to follow him, and a privilege, too, for your Lordships’ House that he is participating in this debate. The only footnote I will add to his speech is that the Greek Government have just been economically obliged to take the Greek broadcasting society off air, which is an index of the scale of that country’s present difficulties.

Arts Council England—I declare an interest because its chief executive was once my admirable Principal Private Secretary—is one of the heroes of this narrative. It deserves great credit for its conduct these past three years: first, for the worthwhile and coherent challenge it set its clients in 2010 to justify its claims on necessarily reduced resources; secondly, for the innovative initiatives that it mounted to assist individuals who, and institutions which, have been confronted by new and testing dilemmas; and, thirdly, for the logic and good sense with which it negotiated the potential impasse in which it is asked to justify itself to public and paymasters alike, without losing its self-respect or the respect of others in the process.

I will make one particular point that I regard as important and that other noble Lords may not make. First, I will illustrate the paean I uttered about the Arts Council with some examples of the initiatives that I outlined. I am drawing on developments since the most recent arts debate in which I participated, in 2010. I am thinking, for example, of the creation of The Space in May 2012, and of the Creative Industry Finance scheme to aid struggling exponents and creative entrepreneurs with development loans of £5,000 to £25,000, repayable over a maximum of three years. I am thinking especially of the Creative employment programme and the £15 million invested in providing 6,500 apprenticeships and internships for 16 to 24 year-olds. I say “especially” because for a quarter of a century I was a trustee of the Wordsworth Trust in Grasmere. Its current chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, will speak later in the debate. The trust used its physical estate and the benefits regime of the Thatcher years—my remark about benefits is a technical one, not a commendation—to allow a series of able graduates in the same kind of age group to prepare for careers in museums while acquiring practical skills in the ordinary, day-to-day functioning of the trust’s activities.

I am thinking of the Arts Council’s partnership with its colleagues in the Creative & Cultural Skills group. I am thinking of the Momentum Music Fund for 50 to 75 bands and artists, with £5,000 to £15,000 loans over two years, similarly managed by a partner music organisation. On a longer and perhaps more traditional timescale, I am thinking of the linkage of creative businesses to cultural organisations close by, so that hubs and clusters may be created. I am delighted by the continuing use of public money to explore the potential of new ideas as a form of creative R&D, and to sustain the seemingly unthinkable.

On the question of self-respect, I like the chief executive’s measured clarion call about the unique ability of arts and culture to fire our imaginations and inspire and entertain us through the contribution that culture makes to our quality of life. Of course, these forces go back much earlier, but it is worth reflecting that it is only just over a quarter of a millennium since Mirabeau coined the concept of—and thus the word—civilisation. What is deeply impressive, in the same breath, is the ability of those involved to afford us a utilitarian justification of the straightforward financial return earned on this programme that can be rendered to the economy without shame or embarrassment. The most recent CEBR report is rich in specific and illuminating detail, and is an anvil for further R&D.

The one question I want to ask the Minister is how the sector is getting on with the opportunity it spelt out for philanthropy back in 2010. There are outstanding instances, like the Royal Opera House, but there are other institutions already surprised by the less satisfactory marks they scored in the Arts Council examination three years ago, and which may not have yet properly remedied their rejection by fundraising themselves, whose success is its own reward in moral as well as financial terms. In another heritage field, the efforts of small parishes to raise the finance to restore their listed churches are a useful signpost towards this goal, which can astonish and invigorate the individual stakeholders who take part in it. Is there an area here, where the Arts Council can enlarge its positive and practical quiver, by helping to teach people how to raise money?

Finally, there is one particular point I wanted to single out. I have not myself lost sight of the phrase, “We’re all in this together”, although I appreciate that some other people have. There are still disciplines in which we can look the world fully in the eye, and the extension of their number lends support to the efforts of those in other similar disciplines. When I was in the private sector, I once had a client who always put his international offices on the continent in cities where there was a good opera house, not just for his own pleasure, but also for that of his employees. Put at its simplest, beyond the ordinary tourism statistics, those foreigners who might have the need to do business with us on other counts, are more likely to do so if our arts, like our fighting forces, are world class. In this regard, I was struck by the disproportionate participation in the recent global lists of world-class cultural institutions in the Times of ones that are very much British.

In the mean time, however, I will close with the dying words of that artist who excelled in portraiture and landscape, and sometimes in both, as in his picture of Mr and Mrs Andrews. Here are the dying words of Gainsborough:

“We are all going to heaven, and van Dyck is of the company”.

15:42

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, for initiating this debate. I also declare an interest as a trustee of the Lowry.

Last week, I chaired an IPT breakfast meeting where the topic was the role of the arts in the 21st century. It was attended by people from across the sector and the political divides, but consensus soon broke out that there is an urgent need to marshal all the arguments that prove the sector’s worth and that too many people have too fragmented a view of what investment in this area provides. As someone from the Arts Council put it,

“we need to have a clear sense of the true value of the arts and cultural industries, and ensure that this value is properly woven into government policy”.

Against the backdrop of the present spending review this could not be more important.

As a country, we have always been blessed with a wealth of creative talents, which have shaped and illuminated our history and national identity. This creativity has also spawned industries that are a significant contributor to our economy. The creative industries come from ideas, innovation and imagination, inspired and fed by the rich tapestry of British culture and the arts. Our creative industries are crucial in contributing to today’s global economy, where capital and labour are mobile and goods and services can be produced almost anywhere. This was evident on a recent trip I made to Guadalajara as the Prime Minister’s trade envoy to Mexico. It has been designated a digital creative city, focusing on attracting companies that produce video games, movies, multimedia and mobile applications, which are all areas in which we excel.

At home, the economic contribution of the arts and cultural sector has grown since 2008, unlike the UK economy as a whole. Our film industry is an example, as the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, mentioned. The UK is the world’s greatest market for music consumers. We produce more than a quarter of the world’s computer games, while nearly half the world’s top 100 computer games companies are based in the UK.

Support for culture and the arts also feeds through into the economy at regional level, so it is of great concern that in certain parts of the country disproportionate cuts are being inflicted by local government. It is also short-sighted; recent LGA and Arts Council research shows that putting money into culture is an investment rather than a simple subsidy, in that it revitalises local economies and regenerates neighbourhoods. The idea behind the Lowry in Salford was to build a major arts complex as a trigger for the regeneration of the area, and it has been a resounding success in encouraging social cohesion and as a catalyst for the regeneration of the local economy. The BBC’s decision to relocate some of its key departments there, and the subsequent development of MediaCity, are clear evidence of this.

If culture and the arts are to benefit our economy, they need to be funded. John Maynard Keynes, who, let us face it, understood a thing or two about economics, was the first chairman of the Arts Council. He said that,

“the support and encouragement of the civilising arts of life”,

were part of a Government’s duty. The Minister knows that the DCMS is small, receives very little and provides a significant return on what government invests, and I hope that he can confirm reports that the Secretary of State is defending the department’s budget “tooth and nail”.

That said, the business models of arts organisations are and should be a mix, not simply because of pressures on the public purse but because the mixed economy works. I pick up here on what the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, said about philanthropy. The Government have established a match-funding scheme with £80 million from public funds to encourage philanthropy, but I think that there has been a problem with success in this area, because the sector does not really have fundraising skills. I suggest a slightly different solution to his, which is that part of that £80 million should be used to teach small and medium-sized organisations how to raise funds.

On the plus side, thanks to new technologies, there are many new opportunities for raising funds, such as crowd funding, which involves encouraging large numbers of people to give small amounts of money over the internet to causes that they support. We did this as an arts crowd funder and, in its first year, it funded over 40 projects through over 1,600 donations. My favourite model has been developed by RADA. Apparently the skills required as an actor in playing a role, performing in front of strangers and something called status adjustment are also needed by businesspeople, who are flocking to sign on to a day of being taught these things at the cost of £625—so the Treasury should take note that luvvies have business acumen.

As well as finance, the creative economy needs people who are skilled in art and other creative subjects. That is another area in which the culture and arts sector is important to the economy. The creative industries suffer from a skills shortage and can play a crucial role in addressing the problem of youth unemployment. That is why I welcome the fact that a national plan for cultural education is finally to be launched this month. I welcome the many initiatives that are helping young people, such as First Story, a charity run by Katie Waldegrave and William Fiennes, who organise and finance creative after-school workshops for students in state schools. Then there is the Young Arts Entrepreneur programme at Curve Theatre in Leicester, which receives Arts Council funding.

When money is tight and the whole of government needs to make savings, we need to make the case for the arts more than ever. Culture and the arts are the bedrock of the creative sector, worth more than £36 billion a year and employing 1.5 million people, as well as making our country an exciting and dynamic place to live and work. The sector is forecast to grow 31% by 2020, but for this to happen it needs the right support.

In conclusion, like the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, I want to say that the importance of culture and the arts is not just about their contribution to the economy. Sarah Crompton, a judge for the Art Fund Museum of the Year Award, wrote recently that her trip around the nation,

“has been a revelation … my head has spun with impressive visitor figures, education plans and collection strategies. Before I started on this adventure, I had thought—in vague, general terms—that museums and galleries were A Good Thing … What I had not really reckoned with was the kind of pride they engender”.

15:50

[The Earl of Clancarty]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, for the opportunity to participate in this debate. If the Government wish to concentrate at least part of their efforts on maximising the arts’ economic benefits, policy making needs to stem from an understanding of—I say this to Maria Miller—the special nature of the arts. This is not to say that the arts are better than any other area, it is to say that they have a particular character.

Cultural value is different, distinct, from the normal values of business, even if the arts themselves may be economically heterogeneous, often expressed as a spectrum, with the non-commercial at one end through to the highly commercial at the other. This heterogeneity is not a statement of an ideal, it is a statement of fact. The arts that we may think of as commercial are often not wholly commercial at all, most obviously in current West End hits like the RSC’s “Matilda”. Most theatre and most commercial film in Britain uses actors and directors who have worked in subsidised theatre around the country. As has been said many times, if subsidised theatre did not exist, we would have not only an impoverished theatre scene but a lesser pool of talent. Barbara Broccoli joked last year that “Skyfall” was the national theatre of Bond.

However, the subsidised arts are much more than a seedbed for the commercial sector. The argument from those who would wish to have all the arts funded through private money and philanthropy is that the arts can stand on their own two feet; that they can become resilient. But the crucial assumption made here is that it will be the same arts doing this. This is the part that is not true. What is apparent to arts centres since the cuts is that spaces or services are lost or become taken over by more commercial productions. It is the disappearance of the innovative at grass-roots level that will have a long-term and significant effect on our arts economy. It is not the same arts regrouping.

Reducing public investment means that we will lose that cultural value. To treat the arts mainly as a commodity or a branch of manufacturing—which I fear that this Government may intend to do—is not to get the best out of the arts in terms of their intrinsic or economic value.

The uncertainty about the future departmental representation of the arts does not help. Can the Minister throw some light on this? Rumours would not be flying around if we had a strong department with strong leadership, which I add is no fault of anyone’s but the Government. If some or all of the arts got swallowed up by BIS, it would be a disaster for the arts in Britain. It is because of that special character of the arts that they need their own strong voice in government.

In terms of the Government’s attitude towards innovation or R&D, as it is increasingly called, the trend is often towards projects which can be bolted on to existing established structures. Where they are appropriate, this works really well—among many, one can cite NT Live, with hundreds of venues across the world, as a successful project. But project money is no substitute for the day-to-day running of the majority of arts organisations. The furore that occurred with Creative Scotland last year, when 49 arts organisations had their funding entirely removed and replaced with lottery money for what were perceived as prescribed projects, and the concerted rebellion by artists which forced out Creative Scotland’s then chief executive should act as a strong warning that it is the right kind of funding—core funding—which arts organisations most desperately need.

The Government have asked the arts to justify themselves in economic terms. As Will Hutton pointed out in the Observer newspaper recently, the Treasury will be awash with reports produced over the decades in response to this repeated demand and they all say the same thing, which is that, because of the sizeable multiplier effect, the more that the Government subsidise the arts, the greater still will be the economic returns to the country.

The other important point to make here is that this works as a macro effect. The danger of treating every original artistic endeavour as a discrete business, which the Arts Council is already having to do much more than it used to, is that the arts will become micromanaged in a way that will stultify their operation and stultify innovation. There should be no more reports justifying the arts economically. The case is proved many times over. It is an unnecessary waste of money.

So the leading question has to be: why are the Government not increasing subsidies to the arts instead of continuing to cut? I will say that again: why are the Government not increasing subsidies to the arts? In my view, there is no good reason why they are not. The Government say that in these times every department needs to take its own share of the pain. That is a false morality which cloaks what is in effect a divide-and-rule strategy. The reality is that no part of society works economically in isolation from any other. The actor-director Sam West points out that the arts pay for hospital beds.

The second objection that the Minister might raise is that there is no money available to invest. That is nonsense, considering how minute in departmental terms the arts budget actually is. If the public properly understood that greater public investment in the arts would help to create significant economic growth which would improve their standard of living, they would vote for it like a shot.

Germany, for one, is doing that. For the eighth year in a row, it has increased its central funding of the arts—last November, by 8%—and it is starting from a base investment which is already much higher than ours. Germany’s Culture Minister, Bernd Neumann, says that public funding is not a grant but,

“an essential investment in the future of our society”;

in other words, an awareness of both the intrinsic value of the arts and their huge economic benefits, which, bearing in mind that Germany has a population about a third larger than ours, amounted in 2011 to €63 billion compared with our current £28 billion—about twice as much. The main lesson to learn from Germany here is that, if we are at all comparable to it in terms of potential for growth in the arts, Britain has not reached any kind of ceiling.

We have been asked in this debate to talk about economic potential, but that is not what is currently most at stake. For many artists, it is their survival, and the future on 26 June looks grim. Whatever is lost will be a loss to the cultural value which drives the arts, including its commercial wing. Nor should we forget that on top of that are the cuts to local government and the more than chilling prediction given by the LGA last year that by 2020, 90% of our local cultural services will be lost if cuts continue in the same vein. This at a time when many local councils are becoming more switched on to the importance of their arts and cultural industries, according to the recent report published by the LGA.

Many—Danny Boyle is certainly one—believe that the arts and the creative industries, backed up by an effective art and design education, are vital for the future of this country. We sorely need a Government who will rise to this challenge.

15:57

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth]

My Lords, first, I join in the congratulations to my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft on introducing this debate. I hope that the House will take my various interests across the film industry, museums and theatre and my previous interest in the National Lottery as read.

Some years ago during a previous recession—I forget which one it was, but you get to my age and they seem to come round so often—I was with a senior Treasury official. The papers were full of the cuts to the arts and I said to him, “When you look at this desperately bad publicity for the Government that you’re serving and the fact that such a small amount of money”—the money allocated to the arts—“can produce so huge an outcry, what’s the problem?”. He said, “You have to understand, Michael, that we love the outcry because it tells the markets that we’re serious about cuts. Of course the amount of money is pretty small but the markets take seriously that we’re serious about austerity”. Having said that, I look for reassurance from the Minister that that is no longer the case at HM Treasury.

I was very pleased to hear my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft use the word “celebration” in her introductory remarks. The arts in this country are in an extraordinarily healthy state. However, the situation is also somewhat topsy-turvy. The private and public sectors seem to have got confused in my mind. At the Grange, that crumbling ruin of a house in Hampshire, I saw a private sector production of Poulenc’s masterpiece of an opera, “The Carmelites”, which was a quite stunning performance. You would expect to see that in the subsided theatre. If you want the hottest tickets in London for the commercial theatre, you can see “One Man, Two Guvnors”, “War Horse” or “The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time”, all of which emanated from the National Theatre. They are the three hottest, biggest money-making shows on the London West End stage. So there is cause for celebration.

The arts sector is a peculiar one, because it is where culture clashes, overlaps and competes with commerce, as well as embracing it. Defining that line is always terribly difficult. As always, it is about getting the balance right. It was a little bit depressing, I agree, to hear the Minister talk about value for money and the balance sheet of the arts. The arts are more important than that. Through public intervention in the arts we get greater risk taking. I do not think “War Horse” or “The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time” would ever have been produced in the commercial theatre. The gestation time was enormous, and the investment and the risk so great, although the reward was fantastic.

To my eternal shame and regret I sat on Alan Milburn’s social mobility committee for many months talking about what we could do to encourage social mobility without having understood or having the wit to push the arts. The arts is the one area where so many of the greatest stars—whether fine artists, conductors, performers, writers, directors, you name it—came from such humble origins and found a way to success through the arts, not necessarily through education. The arts have been proven to be a fantastic driver of social mobility.

Many studies have shown that the arts have a civilising effect. Young, troubled kids who get into music or somehow find a teacher who can show them that they have talent in the arts are able to express themselves and gain a feeling of self-respect and self-esteem through the arts. You cannot measure that on a balance sheet, but we know that it is part of what the arts deliver.

I do not believe that the arts can be immune from the economic downturn and the economic difficulties that we face. As we hear in this House pretty well every day, there are so many worthwhile competing claims on the limited amount of money available. I hope that this debate will serve to underline this for the Government, but all we can do is ensure that when things do get better the Government understand the priority and the benefits of the arts. These apply not only to the economy but also to what the arts say about this country. Obviously the economic contribution is terribly important.

The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, who is also a friend, made two points which I take very seriously. First, I think it is time for a review of lottery distribution. We have not had one for some time, as it was interrupted by the Olympic contribution. The lottery is one of the great success stories of this country, but at all times we must ensure that if there is a review the lottery is not a substitution for government funding. That is the fundamental that John Major set out when he established the lottery. That could be very important.

Secondly, I agree with the noble Lord that we must pay attention to the looming skills shortage, particularly in the film business. The film business is so important: there are nearly 44,000 jobs in the British film sector at the moment. Those jobs will become fewer and fewer if we cannot replenish skills. There are great opportunities and more social mobility, because there are jobs at every level in the film industry. It is open to everybody, with great opportunities. We must emphasise skills and continue to worry about them.

Overall, I feel great about the arts. I think we are going through a temporary dip. Obviously, regarding funding, the arts always want more money and always should have more money, but there is not more money at the moment. I hope the Minister will reassure us that this Government understand the importance of the arts and the many contributions they make to this country, not only in fiscal terms.

16:04

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

My Lords, I, too, express my warm congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, on securing this debate. Like other speakers, I have had a variety of roles that reflect my own passion for the arts. I have chaired the British Council, I have chaired the London International Festival of Theatre, I have chaired Arts & Business, I was on the board of the Hampstead Theatre, and I am currently a trustee of the Man Booker Prize and the Hay Festival.

I had the great pleasure of getting to know the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, as co-trustee of the British Museum and I now count her as a friend. She will agree with me that to be a trustee of the British Museum is one of the greatest privileges that anyone can have. It is an extraordinary institution that is recognised internationally as one of the great wonders of the world. It is why travellers from around the globe make it a first port of call. It belongs not just to us but to the world, housing products of the world’s cultures. Yet Britain has the honour to be the steward of those collections.

To wander in its halls is to go on a great journey through the history of humanity. Its collections tell us what it means to be human and confirm that the peoples of the world are indeed one. A day in the museum leaves you with one overriding sense: what distinguishes the human from animal life is our creativity—our invention of things, our thinking of things, and then our making of things. There are at the museum displays of that incredible creativity from the earliest of times, back to the ice age, as a recent exhibition showed. That making of things—human creativity and invention—is a national asset that is beyond price. Here we are a nation that is small in size—a quarter the size of France—but which dominates the world in the creative industries. Caroline Norbury, CEO of Creative England, said that our inventors think the unthinkable—from Logie Baird to Tim Berners-Lee. We have some of the world’s most successful brands—from James Bond to Harry Potter. We have the largest commercial theatre operation in the world with ticket revenues of £535 million and 40 million visitors a year. It all depends on artists, makers and performers.

Why are we so good at this? It is because we have had an environment that has allowed for experimentation and, at times, for failure. We have in the past invested in the science and technological research that supports and respects artistic talent. There is a delicate ecosystem—an interplay between science and the arts and the cross hatching of the private and public subsidy—that has allowed talent to flourish in this country. When people are asked to think about the arts—theatre, film, paintings—they too often think of them as an add-on that are affordable only in times of affluence. The folly in such limited thinking does not need rehearsing in this House. What is forgotten is the knock-on effect on other sectors that work with the arts to create innovative products and services. All the design elements in our lives feed off art. Architecture looks to sculpture for form; graphic design looks at visual art and photography for new style; advertising looks to film. Steve Jobs was fond of saying that he did not employ geeks but hired poets, musicians and artists who were interested in technology. From that came Apple. However, even the economic value, which is estimated at £50 billion to the economy a year, is forgotten in our efforts to deal with the current debt. Yet a great deal of growth is to be found in unleashing the fund of creativity in this country.

I used to chair an organisation called Arts & Business, which created bridges between the arts and the world of finance. It was not just about sponsorship. It started its life in that way but it became about bringing the skills of the business world to creative endeavours. It was invariably to the advantage of both because there was reciprocity. People in the City loved being brought together with creatives and it changed how they functioned in their own milieux. Creative businesses are small and fragmented, undercapitalised and in need of constant reinvention. They face substantial problems accessing finance and have real problems getting banks or venture capitalists on board. It is a problem that we should recognise. They would often be the first to admit that they lack business skills and need good advice, but once they get the motor running, they can become huge financial success stories. However, we are in danger of doing what we have done in the past: losing out because we fail to capitalise fully on exploiting and distributing our inventions and intellectual property.

The arts have been described as the research and development laboratories of some of our most exportable products and brands. Yet while we are publicly proud of our investment in research for science and innovation, we are petrified at seeming too indulgent with creative people and the arts. We are sidelining art in the curriculum and squeezing the life out of our art and drama schools, while those without private incomes are finding it almost impossible to survive. We have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Grade, about those from different backgrounds who have the opportunity to find release in the arts, but I am afraid that this does not happen as frequently as we would want.

Somehow art is seen as risky but banking is not. We worry about the risk of investment in the arts, yet have no problem about investing in high-risk derivatives or space travel. I should like to refer to video games. They make £2 billion for the UK in global sales. In some of our new universities there is a great deal of creativity in making those games. The sector is now bigger than the film or music industries. The United Kingdom also leads in visual effects—all that amazing, fancy stuff in action movies. It is the fastest-growing component of the UK film industry, but I am told we are starting to lose our cutting edge because of skills shortages in the UK. Why is that the case? The answer is that we are not supporting appropriate technical training in our schools and universities.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, I started by speaking of the British Museum. It was through spending time among the ancient sculptures of the frozen north that Henry Moore took inspiration for his contemporary work. The old feeds the new. There are real anxieties that any significant downturn in public spending for the museum and other arts institutions will have a very damaging impact, which will not just be on the wonderful exhibitions, but on all the incredible scholarship that takes place beyond public view. I echo the plea of the noble Baroness that there should be no short-sighted cuts.

I make a general plea, too, for the places which nurture the ideas and the creativity: our schools, art schools and universities. Subsidising the arts should be up there as a high priority along with health. I also make a plea to Government to encourage banks and investors to support the initiatives. When Roosevelt responded to the Great Depression, he was persuaded to sustain the arts even in the worst of times. New projects were created, public art works for railway stations and post offices were commissioned and creative endeavours were encouraged. The payoff was immeasurable then. It would be now.

16:13

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, this has been a powerful debate, delivered by those who are highly expert and experienced in the field. I very much hope that what has been said will be taken to heart—as well as into the heads—of those in the Treasury who are no doubt considering future public expenditure problems. Although my vocation has been politics, my passion has always been for the arts. Even year when I played Hamlet and Cinderella at school and had to consider where my future lay, I did not have the guts to pursue what really made me tick. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, for her most insightful opening to this debate.

Before I develop my thoughts, I want to draw attention to one or two people who have, through their life’s work and what they are doing now, contributed to a transformation of the possibilities of the arts. Although the field is under pressure at the moment, I agree with those who have said that we are unrivalled in our contributions and in the creative industries. We have been and we have the basis to continue that, but a big change has come about in my lifetime.

I would like particularly to pay tribute to Denis Vaughan, the former conductor-assistant to Thomas Beecham. He was one of those who powerfully advocated that the lottery should be set up and he is still making the case that the money should go more to the arts. I was glad to hear several contributions, including those from the noble Lords, Lord Puttnam and Lord Grade, making that point, which certainly needs to be considered at this time. Another current contributor to the debate is the present lord mayor of the City of London, Alderman Roger Gifford, who decided to make arts and culture one of the central themes of his mayoralty. He has been talking not about the threat to the City from the European Union but about building on what we have. He has committed to establishing the City music foundation, a new charity to support musicians in the early stages of their careers through mentoring and opportunities to perform. It has been claimed on his behalf that the benefits derived from the City’s arts and culture clusters generate a net contribution of £225 million in gross value added and support 6,700 full-time equivalent jobs in the City.

Speaking for myself, in the past I represented a community which could scarcely be more different. It is the least populated part of the United Kingdom: the constituency of Caithness and Sutherland. I am currently presiding over a charity called North Highland connections, which enjoys the patronage of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. We set it up with a very clear view of bringing to that remote part of the country the opportunities for individuals to experience and enjoy the arts themselves, to promote tourism and to encourage young artists from all around the country to have the opportunity to display and develop their talents. All these things have come on rather well, although we decided to do it at a difficult time—namely, 2008. We have subsequently demonstrated that it is difficult even for the philanthropic trusts, which are under pressure at this time. Local and central government have been clamping down on the arts but the benefit of such a development is, to my mind, patently clear. I believe that this kind of effort should be given every encouragement to grow all around our country.

Another area of the arts with which I have been involved was as chairman of the European Cultural Foundation, when there was a national branch of that Dutch-based organisation. That also, it seems to me, provided for the modern world a huge benefit in bringing to the attention of all our citizenry, and right across Europe, the cultural identities of people who are sometimes developing very differently. However, it enhances the whole and I hope very much that the Government will recognise that that is an important part of being European.

Finally, I pay tribute to PRS for Music which, since 2000, has given more than £16 million to over 14,000 new music initiatives by awarding grants and leading partnership programmes that support music-sector directives. It has been invited by Arts Council England to deliver the new Momentum Music Fund which will inject more than £0.5 million into the music industry over the next two years by a seed-funding investment for emerging acts to help develop the careers of talented artists and bands. I am also impressed by the work of UK Music which is launching Skills Academy. It has drawn my attention to a matter of detail and, as an acknowledgement of the work that has been done by such organisations, I would like to draw attention to what a number of bodies have said is vital at this time and that is copyright. Government plans to modernise copyright could have a detrimental impact on creators, potentially jeopardising the income of British songwriters and composers. There needs to be an exception to copyright for private copying, but there should be a requirement for fair compensation. As it stands, in most EU member states, private copying is legal and any loss of income is reimbursed by systems of compensation. We must bear that in mind and I hope that it will be brought into consideration in the various other forums which are considering these matters.

There is a vital report which was commissioned by the Arts Council and published in May which we should all read. I had hoped, had we had longer, to be able to read some of its conclusions into our debate. This report by the Centre for Economics and Business Research has shown that the generalities that we have expressed in this debate about the contribution to industry and the economy are absolutely justified and I hope it will be studied and read with care by the Treasury.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I remind noble Lords that we are in a time-limited debate and we obviously want to make sure that we have time enough for the Minister at the end and also for the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, to respond.

16:22

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, for airing this important subject. I will keep my speech short. I was pleased to read in recent speeches by government Ministers a declared belief in the value of the arts and their importance to the economy. However, by their deeds shall they be judged for, like all good artists, we must be not simply self-congratulatory but also self-critical. Of course, we must applaud and highlight the returns in terms of tourism, reputation and jobs that the arts create but, please, let us not overlook the social dividend, as so eloquently stated by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam. I will not repeat my recent pleas in my maiden speech about those rewards—human, educational and vocational—which are of course available in Hansard, but will stick to the economic remit of this debate.

Only today the Guardian carries warnings that many small-scale and regional arts companies face losing their grants altogether. This is going to be nothing short of catastrophic for the future of culture in this country. The cultural scene that has been built up since the end of the Second World War is now, as the noble Baroness mentioned, the envy of the world and that feeds, ultimately, into the success of the big flagships—the Royal Opera House, the National Theatre, Aldeburgh which is currently under way, the Sage and Tate Modern, for example. Understandably, they reap the lion’s share of money available to the arts. Probably among your Lordships I have had a pretty unique view of the dilemma that arises since I am a composer who was for a while on the Arts Council music panel where I would regularly wonder how we could justify such a large slice of the cake going to so few august centres of excellence. Then I was on the board of the Royal Opera House where I saw that, in order to be among the best in the world, we needed every penny of available funding. Now I see this dilemma from a wider perspective, and I do not mean simply these distinguished and comfortable Benches, although there are many noble Lords who, I have discovered with great pleasure, feel passionately about the arts, as we have heard today. I look forward to hearing my friend the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, who fought so valiantly for free admission to museums, something that I profoundly cherish.

Your Lordships may have noted the point made so recently by my friend and colleague, the actor Sam West—indeed, one noble Lord already has—who said that in terms of the theatre it was dangerous simply to look at the return of large-scale productions in glamorous venues, for it was in small-scale regional theatres that many of our Oscar winners, who are vaunted as being at the forefront of artistic success, cut their teeth and learnt their trade. It is there that innovation and adventure can be tried. The value of small-scale investment may not be immediately obvious but in fact it is vital. “War Horse” was mentioned, but for every war horse there are 12 ponies that fail to make the final fence.

I shall extend this lesson into my own field, musical composition. As a result of devolution, a considerable commissioning cake was cut into tiny slices. This was then compounded, from the point of view of small-scale festivals, performing groups and composers, by the Arts Council’s decision to hand commissioning funds to favoured clients—the big guns, the centres of excellence—and let them decide who to commission. That is not without merit if one wants to keep at arm’s length from artistic policy, but there is a rub and even a contradiction. It in fact creates a policy, an unlevel playing field, so that smaller festivals like Cheltenham and instrumental groups like the Nash can no longer find the funds to carry on the vital work that they have been achieving at the coal face of music-making. There is a disconnect that means that commissioning is confined to a circle of well established names and, for the sake of full disclosure, I have sometimes been among their number. However, some really wonderful and acclaimed composers are actually on the breadline at the moment, names that are very famous in the musical world, and performing groups who would like to commission them find it impossible to access funds because they are not favoured Arts Council clients. This process really must be looked at and I urge the Minister to relay my concerns to the DCMS and the Arts Council—always assuming that it is still in existence in the coming months. Indeed, I suspect that information on its current health would be of interest to the House.

On that subject, I note that a large portion of lottery money was diverted from other areas to finance the excellent Olympic Games, in which I am sure we all delighted, but I gather from Ed Vaizey’s recent speech that this money is to be returned to the arts. If that is the case, surely these small-scale ventures could be protected.

In the arts we are, corporately speaking, a success story, but I beg the Government not to pull the plug on the boiler room where so many ideas, so much training and so much outreach and educational work is started, and where otherwise starved communities are nourished. It is this art for all that makes us a civilized society, and it is so very precious. We are approaching the centenary of the First World War where, writing in the trenches where he was about to be killed, Wilfred Owen asked:

“Was it for this the clay grew tall?”.

When I hear or see a beautiful work of human creativity, I think, “It was for this the clay grew tall”.

16:29

[Baroness Seccombe]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft on initiating this debate and I hope that she and other noble Lords will forgive me for concentrating on a small segment of culture and arts—tourism and the contribution it makes to the economy.

I am more than fortunate to live in Stratford-upon-Avon. It is a town of historic interest and a much-valued part of our heritage. I often marvel at the range of languages one hears daily on the streets and the support for the annual celebration of William Shakespeare’s birthday is remarkable. People come from all over the world carrying flowers with banners displaying their home country. The lengthy and special procession proceeds through the town with the town band playing and the flags of all the countries flying. It is a glimpse of just one day in the year when we can celebrate all that our legendary poet has bequeathed us.

In this country we are indeed fortunate to have so many important sites that attract thousands to our shores but unless these properties are cared for and promoted to their full potential the country misses golden opportunities to increase both the cultural and financial benefit. I pay tribute to Governments over the years who having realised the opportunities have given generous support in sponsorship. The National Trust has also played a major role by restoring and caring for the fabric of properties of differing types, from the grand houses to the comparatively humble dwellings of the past.

In Stratford we are blessed among our treasures with fine theatres, and the redevelopment of the Royal Shakespeare Theatre has been an inspiration. The town thrives on the success of visitors. Some 6,300 people are employed locally in the tourist industry with an additional 1,700 indirect jobs. That generates £335 million annually for the local economy. No wonder that tourism is the fastest growing industry in the land.

It is essential that tourism, as with any other industry, is nurtured and enhanced to ensure that visitors do not only come once but return. This is even more important in financially challenging times when industries have to stand on their own feet and not look to Government for continuous financial support. I was therefore delighted to read that local businesses supported by the adjoining local authorities have launched a campaign called Shakespeare’s England. The aim is to maximise business opportunities in the area. It is particularly apt to launch this now as next year we will be celebrating the 450th anniversary of Shakespeare’s birth.

We are so fortunate to have many historic venues including Warwick Castle and other grand houses set in the wonder of the beautiful countryside with its wealth of leafy lanes. I do not wish to sound like a travel advertisement but it seems to me that genuine enthusiasm and attention to making the most of our heritage is fundamentally important for the wealth of the country.

Successful tourism can be achieved only by offering events for every taste—some may not appeal to me but I am glad they exist as I hope they will appeal to others and no doubt if they do not they will soon disappear from the calendar. I hope that we will concentrate on offering visitors worthwhile and memorable projects that can be a source of great pleasure to many people.

I have referred only to one county but I am confident that there is frantic activity countrywide. Unquestionably, people around the world are hungry to learn about the past. They want to know what made people tick and how they lived, and they want further information about our history and the effect that events of former times have on our lives today. We all share that interest and so I believe each of us has a duty to understand the worst and preserve the best of the past. We see so much beauty around us but we should never take it all for granted. I feel very privileged to be able to share these gifts with visitors as I know it makes such good sense and enriches the lives of everyone.

16:34

[The Earl of Glasgow]

My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft has implied, perhaps the Government do not always fully appreciate the important part that British culture and the arts play in our economy. According to Creative and Cultural Skills, the UK has the largest cultural economy in the world as a proportion of its GDP. Businesses engaged in Britain’s heritage and arts employ several million people and attract 14 million overseas visitors a year, and the creative industries account for 10.6% of UK exports.

In the competition for the world’s leading visitor destination, London’s museums and art galleries are challenged only by Paris for the greater number of visitors each can attract. The London theatre is now doing too well, as the noble Lord, Lord Grade, mentioned. Due largely to the huge number of foreign visitors to London it is almost impossible to get tickets for plays such as “The Audience”, “Othello” at the National, “The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time”, “Once”, or the admittedly American, “The Book of Mormon”. You have to book ahead if you want seats for the longer-running “Matilda”, “One Man, Two Guvnors”, or “War Horse”, while it seems that “Les Miserables”, “The Phantom of the Opera”, “The 39 Steps” and “The Woman in Black” will run forever. We do not talk about “The Mousetrap” any more. The downside to this success story is that there are not enough theatres available to accommodate some of the excellent productions from our provincial cities that are looking for a venue in the West End. However, with so many successes, I have never understood why ticket prices need to keep going up.

London is unique, and will continue to attract millions of foreign tourists for years to come. The Government need more seriously to consider the countryside, small towns and rural businesses. Britain’s heritage—specifically its historic buildings, stately homes, castles, gardens and designed landscapes—is the single most quoted reason for foreign visitors to come to Britain. According to VisitBritain, in 2011, 9 million foreigners visited one or more of Britain’s historic houses contributing £6,500 million to the economy.

I declare an interest, in that I own a grade A-listed castle and country park in Scotland which attracts 60,000 visitors a year. I am also a member of the Historic Houses Association, whose members still own and live in their historic piles. For many years, the Historic Houses Association has tried to impress on successive Governments the importance of historic houses and castles to the British economy, how many foreign tourists we attract, and how much our presence benefits local hotels, shops and pubs. According to its figures, total expenditure generated by inbound tourist visits to privately owned historic houses is £1.6 billion per annum. Britain has more privately owned houses open to the public than the National Trust, English Heritage and their equivalents in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland put together. Our most famous houses—Chatsworth, Longleat, Blenheim, Arundel, Castle Howard and Woburn Abbey, to name but a few—are still privately owned, in the hands of their original families, who struggle to maintain them with little or no financial help from Government bodies.

Contrary to popular belief, the majority of those living in grand historic houses—I speak from personal experience—are not particularly rich. The main reason for this is because they live in grand historic houses. They are very expensive to maintain, and to live in them is both a privilege and a burden. It is a mystery to some people why we struggle to hold on to buildings we have probably inherited and in most cases have learnt to love while continuing to lose money every year. Perhaps it is because we feel we owe it to our ancestors—I do not know.

I think I am right to say that no stately home open to the public actually makes a trading profit. The ones that survive do so because the owner has some other source of income or can resort to selling a Titian or Van Dyck every other year to fill the gap. The income derived from opening to the public only helps defray the costs of keeping the house wind and watertight. On top of that, we must pay VAT on our structural improvements or repairs, while our rich neighbours can build themselves a brand new comfortable warm house next door completely tax-free.

Now we hear that the Government intend to cap sideways loss relief, which was one of the few forms of tax relief which the beleaguered owners of historic houses could avail themselves of. In this time of austerity, many owners of historic houses are holding on to their houses by only a thread. Some are already having to face reality and are forced to close by their banks. For instance, very recently Torosay Castle in Mull has been sold to a foreign buyer. The castle is no longer open to the public and this has put many of the small local businesses in jeopardy. Every time that something like this happens, Britain is a poorer place. The contents that belonged to that house are sold and spread across the world and the value of our country as a tourist destination is diminished. I ask the Government to take the concerns of historic house owners seriously and recognise the important contribution that they collectively make to the nation’s economy.

16:40

[Lord Smith of Finsbury]

My Lords, I join in the warm congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, on securing and introducing this debate so well and on stimulating so many excellent speeches. I remind noble Lords the range of arts organisations with which I am involved, as set out in the register of interests.

Robert Kennedy once wrote:

“The Gross National Product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages, the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning, neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country. It measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile”.

He was making a powerful point; the arts are part of the life-enhancing, wonder-making, intelligence-affirming, glorious life of the mind and soul for all of us. In many ways it should be enough simply to say that to justify the importance and significance of the arts. It is important constantly to reiterate this simple truth. The arts bring us joy and sorrow; they tell our stories; they help our understanding; they trouble us; they question us; they make our spirits soar. That, simply, is why they are important. But of course that is not the whole story—or indeed the only story.

When I became Secretary of State for Culture, I sensed that the arts were important together with all the allied creative activities that they generated. They were important because they mattered economically as well as aesthetically. That is why I established the creative industries task force served on brilliantly by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam. It is why we published the mapping documents in 1999 and 2001 that set out the shape and value and significance of the creative industries. These are things that are now being copied all over the world in terms of the important stimulus for, and sustaining of, the creative sector of economies. It is hugely important for our economy, especially in these times of economic difficulty. This is a sector of the economy that is still growing, still significant, and will become even more significant as the years go on.

This leads me to four specific thoughts. First, the links between the traditional arts sector and the more creative commercial economic sector are fundamental. One of the reasons we are really good at the creative industries around the world is because we have a strong arts base, strong arts organisations and brilliant artistic activity in this country. These lead to the economic success of the creative sector; indeed, without the one you cannot have the other. It is people learning their stagecraft, and learning about stage design and lighting in regional theatres, that leads to success in film and television around the world. It is people learning their music craft in orchestras, in singing and playing, that leads to music that takes the world by storm, meaning that four out of the top five selling discs in the United States last year were from British artists. Strong, traditional arts activity is vital for the economic benefit that comes from the whole creative sector.

Secondly, DCMS matters. There are worrying rumours bubbling around about the possibility that the Government might be considering disbanding the department. This absolutely must not happen. We need a strong voice for the arts and culture in this country. It cannot come from a small offshoot of a much larger department. Indeed, I would argue for putting the whole of the creative sector—the arts, the creative economy, the whole of communications—under the DCMS umbrella and making it a real champion for this vital part of our national life and economy.

Thirdly, copyright matters. I was pleased to hear the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, take up this point. The economic value of creative activity comes from the value of the intellectual property that is created as part of it. We need to ensure that the creator can be guaranteed a return for their creativity. There have been some worrying signs that the Government seek to water down the importance and security of copyright in recent years—most notoriously, the deeply flawed Hargreaves report. This must not happen. The Government must reaffirm their commitment to strong copyright protection and, along the way, perhaps they might get on with implementing the Digital Economy Act.

Fourthly, the arts, cultural activity and the creative economy are things which, as many noble Lords have mentioned, we are outstandingly good at as a country. We should be very proud of what we have achieved and are achieving in this sector. The first 10 years of this century have been something of a golden decade for cultural and artistic activity in this country. I like to think that I may have played a small part in helping to stimulate that. Please do not put all of that at risk. We currently have warnings from the Arts Council about the possible impact of the spending review and the danger to arts organisations up and down the country. This would be disastrous. Some are already operating on the margins of viability. There is no easy cut that can be made in this sector. For the sake of our economy, our international reputation, our tourism potential and above all for the wonderful experiences that the arts bring for all of us, please do not cut deeply and savagely and destroy this precious thing that we have.

The Government are rightly talking about infrastructure investment being protected and even promoted when the spending review arrives. Investment in the arts is investment in the infrastructure of the mind and the heart. It is crucial seed corn for the future of our economy. That is what I urge the Government to do, and what I urge the Minister to go and talk with his Treasury colleagues about.

16:49

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury. Way back in 1998, when County Durham was in trouble with the Bowes Museum, the then Secretary of State commissioned a report. It was a very good report, and after he received it he said that he would think about the Bowes Museum every day in his bath. I hope that he still has a bath every day.

If noble Lords will forgive me, I will take the contribution to the economy for granted. I am much more concerned about the effect on society, the educational potential and social mobility, which I find much more difficult and more interesting subjects. Briefly, I will talk about the relationship between the state—central and local government—and arts and cultural institutions. I hope that noble Lords will find that as I go along, I will at least show that I have been in the front line of that quite often.

It does not seem to me that the arts can flourish without a high degree of independence. If they are not independent, then they have problems. I do not see how they achieve inclusion without that degree of independence. That, of course, takes one straightaway to money because it is a question of resources, and that has engaged your Lordships quite a lot during this debate. However, if one agrees that a degree of independence is a necessary condition for the arts to flourish, then one has to look and see about the state.

The state is basically uncomfortable with the arts, and so are local authorities. This makes the job of the public servants in the Arts Council, as my noble friend Lord Brooke said, and in other of the institutions such as the Heritage Lottery Fund, quite tricky. As noble Lords will have seen, there are spats between the Arts Council and government. This is not a political speech; it does not matter who the government were or are. There are spats between the Lottery Fund and government, and changes in position. I think this is because, while the state is comfortable with and understands expenditure, it does not understand income. It gets its own income by a form of legalised confiscation.

Furthermore, the state and local authorities are not happy with risks. They are not comfortable with experimentation and they worry about the electorate’s responses to things which neither they nor their civil servants really know about or understand. We have to remember that 35% of the electorate do not vote, and a lot of other members of the electorate are not too switched on by the arts. So why is the independence valuable?

I will refer briefly to Kew Gardens. I was fortunate enough after the Heritage Act 1983 to be the first chairman of Kew when it came under trustees. There was no “Friends of Kew” at that time; the Ministry would not have thought of it. We now have more than 70,000; it is a lot later, but that has happened. We have had enormously successful exhibitions of, for example, Chihuly’s glass and Henry Moore’s sculptures.

Many other things have happened at Kew; I think it relates much more to what the public like to go and see than it used to. Many of these things would not have happened if it had remained under Defra. Take, for example, the £110 million for the millennium seed bank raised by Kew. Does anybody really think that that would have happened if Kew had still been run directly by the department? There is a serious issue about independence and, with it, a serious issue about why an independent body deserves so much public money. That is a question that we all have to answer.

I will finish, briefly, with the Bowes Museum. In 1998, County Durham had a problem with the Bowes and proposed to shut it for 18 weeks over the winter. The argument was, “We haven’t got a lot of money, we’re subject to constraints”—goodness me, they are subject to more constraints now even than they were then—“we have villages down the coast where there used to be pits, and those villages have community centres and libraries but not much income, so what are we to do? Are we to give the money to the Bowes and Barnard Castle, next to Raby Castle, or are we to give it in grant form to the pit villages?”. One can understand their dilemma; it was perfectly genuine. They were not disregarding the contribution of the Bowes or Barnard Castle to County Durham; they had a problem. Therefore, we negotiated to take the Bowes back to being an independent trust. Since then, we have raised money to mend the roof and we have reorganised the collections. We now have contemporary art exhibitions, and we have had selling exhibitions of crafts. The café is also a great deal better than it used to be. All these things have been done and can continue to be done.

Of course, the basis for them all is an ability to raise money. That is how I will finish. When you go to raise money, people are very good at telling you, “I would have given you money yesterday, and possibly I will give you money tomorrow, but unfortunately I haven’t got any money today”. You have to look at them, give them a villainous smile and say, “I will not leave until I have the cheque”. We need to get a great deal better at raising our own money in order to support our independence, carry out the work of inclusion and solve many of our financial problems ourselves.

16:56

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, I join others in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, for initiating this very important debate. I will speak about one relatively narrow aspect of arts and culture; namely, the conservation and preservation of our cultural heritage. I do so because some time ago I chaired a sub-committee of the Science and Technology Committee, which looked at the role of science in the preservation and conservation of our cultural heritage. Since then I have retained a considerable interest in the subject and continue to play a part. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, talked about the delicate ecosystem between science and the arts, and, indeed, there is.

Like other noble Lords, I will not go into detail about the role of cultural heritage in the economy, because others have mentioned it. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, in particular identified the importance of this sector for attracting tourism and £115 billion annually; tourism is the fifth largest industry in the country. Somewhere in the region of 70% of people who come to this country do so because they want to visit our cultural heritage: our historic towns and villages, castles, stately homes, museums, art galleries, theatres, and music and other festivals.

I will concentrate on the issue of preservation and conservation. Why do we want to do it? One answer is that we would not reap the economic benefit from our cultural heritage if it were not there. Further to that, it is of course an essential part of our culture. What do we mean by cultural heritage? Essentially, it is those parts of what we value in our arts and artefacts, and in our ideas, that we want to pass on to other generations. Conservation is vital—and not just of material things such as paper and textiles. I remember the director of the Natural History Museum, Michael Dixon, telling me, “We have a great problem because insects eat insects, so we have to keep the insects away from our collection of insects”.

Even stone degrades over time, as we know so well from what is happening here to our own Palace of Westminster. That is a great problem. Increasingly, many of the things that we create are transient. We are corresponding, not by letter—which can be kept these days—but by e-mail. We record notable events on YouTube or on Facebook. We gather information from websites. The preservation of our digital presence is an increasing part of conservation, and a great problem posed to the British Library, which, for example, has to keep a record of all the websites that are created.

I have an interesting example of the transience of all material things. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, mentioned the David Bowie exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum. Some time ago, the textile conservation centre at Winchester was charged with repairing a pair of Freddie Mercury’s pants, the bright red ones he wore at a gig in 1979, which sadly were made out of faux leather and had begun to wear away. Later, it was also charged with conserving his famous yellow jacket and white trousers. On one level it was doing this because it was preserving his memory for potentially millions of Queen fans, but on another level, it was undertaking important work into the longevity and vulnerability of degradation in modern materials. As one of the conservators put it,

“everyone has this idea that modern fabrics are indestructible ... But in fact there are some that are very unstable—and polyurethane happens to be one of them”.

Conservation and preservation help to preserve more than just memories and artefacts. They also provide us with a great insight into attitudes and behaviour. We learn so much about Tudor England from Shakespeare plays or, for that matter, about Egypt 3,000 years ago from such artefacts as the Book of the Dead, which was displayed so admirably at the British Museum a couple of years ago. These are not only the things we enjoy looking at and value; they are the stuff of our history and help to explain our present. We did not inherit the past but hold it in trust for our children and our children's children. It is therefore important that we value these things not just because they contribute to the economy, but because our children, and their children and their children’s children should also be able to enjoy them.

I end therefore with a plea that, while recognising the value of these assets, we do not neglect the need to put resources—that means money—aside for their maintenance and conservation. It is too easy in these days of austerity to forget that, as I said earlier, even stone degrades. Unless we are prepared to put money and effort into conservation and into developing new methods of conservation, we shall not be in a position to hand them on to our children. Yesterday, my noble friend Lord Lee raised the question of the possible closure of the Science Museum Group museums in the north of England. The Minister himself noted that last year 19.1 million people visited these regional museums and that they are often at the heart of their region’s creative industries, preserving artefacts and skills which characterise their local history. It would be a tragedy if these museums have to shut. But if we want the Science Museum to continue to maintain and preserve its collections, it has to be given enough money to keep them all in good repair. I hope that the cultural and economic importance of such museums will be considered carefully in the forthcoming spending review.

17:04

[Viscount Colville of Culross]

I, too, would like to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, on securing this moment for us to celebrate culture and the arts in this country. I declare an interest as a director of the BBC in the history and science departments.

I want to concentrate on a very specific area of culture, film and television, which have already been mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Puttnam and Lord Grade. As they both said, they are world-beating sectors of the economy, and they run a rare trade surplus. “Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows—Part 2”, “The Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides” and “The King’s Speech” have been the most successful British films worldwide. I am sure that many noble Lords have enjoyed watching them as much as I have.

The industry has been very dynamic in attracting foreign and domestic investment. Last year, Warner Bros opened the £100 million Leavesden studios with great studio space and workshop facilities, while Pinewood Studios has submitted a £200 million plan to double its filming facilities, which it says could create up to 3,000 new jobs in the industry. We are also seeing a flurry or cluster of television and film industries in the English regions, and also in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, in an industry that has been traditionally based in London and the south-east. This must be seen by everybody as a great British success story.

However, I am concerned that the British Film Institute, the body which gives funds to the regional film development bodies and is responsible for encouraging exports of the film industry, is being severely constrained by a series of savage cuts made over the past few years. Most of its funding comes from a grant in aid direct from government, although the lottery also contributes valuable funds. In 2010, it was announced that the institute would have a 15% cut over four years; now it has been told that it has another cut of 2% and another one of 1% next year. Nick Mason Pearson, head of public affairs at the BFI, said that,

“any further cuts will have a seriously damaging effect on our ability to support our partners that help us deliver across the UK. That threatens the position of film as a whole and thus the economy”.

Creative England, which is responsible for investment in the development of the creative sectors in the regions, is facing a cut of over 40% of film investment outside London. As most private investment goes to London, we are once again seeing a move away from the regions back to London, which seems ironic at a time when so much political attention is going towards trying to create regional economic development in this country. I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, that I would like the Minister to see whether he can push for a greater allocation of lottery funds to support film across the UK.

The Government may feel that the cuts in the BFI are fine, because they have done a very good job in extending the film tax relief benefit across the industry to cover film production money spent in this country. That has been rolled out this April to cover the high end of television animation and video game production. Despite this extraordinary support, parts of the industry are suffering. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, mentioned the visual effects industry, which is based in Soho, in London, and after Hollywood is seen as world beating. It houses four of the largest visual effects companies, and is trusted globally for the ability to deliver complex sequences with cutting edge technology for new films. However, a number of these houses are relocating to Canada, which has extremely generous post-production incentives in place specifically aimed at attracting their business. One reason for this seems to be that there is an arbitrary 80% limit on the film tax relief, which particularly affects those visual effects houses, because they have become very much at the end of the spend on film production. It has been imposed by the EU Commission, but it is open for discussion in the new EU cinema communications consultation document. I know that the Government have tried to increase the limit but have been blocked by the EU competition commissioner; I ask them to redouble their efforts to ensure that all the film spend in this country is protected. It seems not to be in the interests of either Britain or the EU that our visual effects houses are relocating to North America, with the consequent loss to our economy and our global reputation.

The success of the film industry has been reflected in our other great media success story, television, with an increase in export in 2011 of 9%. The greatest market is North America, but exports to the rest of the world went up by 34%, and all the surveys show that British creativity is the most important factor driving the UK’s export success. It is a great story and we must go flat out to build on it.

I believe that the Government could still do more to promote television exports. I fear that at the highest level trade missions, the creative industries are not represented nearly strongly enough. On the Prime Minister’s recent trip to India, of the leaders of 40 British companies who accompanied him only one, Premier League, was from the creative industries. Will the Minister ensure that the Government promote one of the greatest economic success stories at the highest level to ensure that the export potential of our companies can be maximised in the future?

I am very proud to have spent my career in the creative industries. They are great centres of international, cultural and economic excellence. We must do everything we can to ensure that we continue to be the world beaters, entertaining and enthralling billions across the globe.

17:10

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the gap. I will take a few seconds to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, on collecting around her such an eminent bunch of speakers who have created a remarkable debate this afternoon. I agree with virtually everything that has been said. However, I would particularly like to associate myself with the speeches of the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, both of whom have said most of what I wanted to say—much more eloquently than I ever could, and certainly not in the time I have.

I have spent my whole professional life in and around arts organisations. I have served in senior executive capacities in many and am currently serving in non-executive capacities for several, including the Roundhouse in north London, the National Opera Studio and the Royal Shakespeare Company. Being able to engage with those companies as they grow and develop, even in these very difficult times, is a source of enormous pride for me. Pride is something which has been mentioned several times and we should remember that the arts and culture are legitimately a source of pride, both for us as individuals where we are lucky enough to be associated with them, and for the nation as a whole. We must not let that pride go.

I looked very closely at the Arts Council’s work when it last restructured its portfolio following the comprehensive spending review three years ago. It did an extraordinarily good job. It has not always done an extraordinarily good job, but it did on that occasion and I was very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, gave it due credit. But I and the Arts Council warned that if it was forced to deal with another round of cuts similar to those which it was then absorbing, the consequences would be very serious. And lo, today we see in the article by Charlotte Higgins in the Guardian evidence that the Arts Council itself is briefing of the serious damage that it anticipates will be inevitable as a result of the comprehensive spending review, which we are due to hear about. Even allowing for the fondness of journalists for bad news stories, this really is a very grim scenario that we are facing.

I want to say what this feels like to people in the arts organisations that are likely to be affected. It feels like Groundhog Day only much worse. The noble Lord, Lord Grade, mentioned that he has been around long enough to have seen previous depressions, and so have I. I was in arts organisations in the 1980s when they struggled with very hard times. The one thing that is really different now is that the arts and culture, since John Major created the Department of National Heritage, which turned into the DCMS, have had a seat at the Cabinet table. It would be catastrophic if it were now to lose that influence. Will the Minister please stress to his colleagues in the DCMS and the Treasury how very important it is that that seat at the Cabinet table is preserved and that, whatever difficulties the sector faces in the future, it has an advocate at the most senior level in government?

17:13

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I, too, am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, for securing this debate and to everybody who has contributed. There is enormous art expertise in this House, yet it seems that it is all too rare that we get an opportunity such as this for an in-depth discussion. We have proved our worth with that expertise today.

At the outset, I endorse the central proposition that we are debating. The fact is that the arts and culture contribute enormously to the economy, and that is backed up by statistics from the department and by numerous external assessments that have been made over the years.

A number of noble Lords have cited statistics this afternoon and I do not want to bore the House but I will add a couple of my own. The department itself calculated that the creative industries account for 6.2% of the goods and services in the economy and £16.6 billion in exports. A more recent study has estimated that the sector accounts for 1.5 million jobs and contributes £70,000 a minute to the UK economy. A number of noble Lords have made reference to the Arts Council report. The most recent report on the economic impact makes a very powerful case, showing how investment reaps return, with every per cent of government arts spending yielding four times as much towards GDP.

In addition, as we have heard, the arts are a major reason why overseas visitors come to Britain, with our heritage sites being a major draw and nearly half of them planning to attend a music, theatre or opera event. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, also made an important point, reminding us that it is also a reason why businesses globally choose to locate here, as they appreciate the artistic culture that we have.

In a recent debate here on the role of arts projects in regional regeneration, we heard about their enormous economic impact on cities—for example, Liverpool, the European Capital of Culture, which generated £800 million for the regional economy; the Birmingham Creative City initiative, which aims to create 100,000 new jobs by 2020; and the Sage Gateshead, contributing £146 million to the north-east economy. The noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, reminded us today of the roles of The Lowry and the BBC MediaCity in helping to regenerate Salford.

For everyone involved in the arts, those economic benefits have been recognised and celebrated over many years. Indeed, when my noble friend Lord Smith coined the phrase “the creative economy” in the early years of the previous Government, it was precisely to emphasise that, far from being a drain on the nation’s resources, investment in the arts created growth, jobs and economic returns, as well as providing a broader social dividend.

So what are we to make of the recent speeches of Ed Vaizey and Maria Miller acknowledging the value of the arts to the economy? First, it might be said that they have come to the table rather late in the day, when a considerable amount of damage to the arts has already been done. This was, as I understand it, Maria Miller’s first speech on the arts in seven months as Culture Secretary. Set against the backdrop of the cuts to arts bodies made by her predecessor, there hardly seems to be a sense that the interests of arts and culture are being driven from the front.

A number of noble Lords rightly raised concerns about the impact of further cuts. That point was made very powerfully by my noble friend Lady McIntosh. It will be interesting to hear how the negotiations with the Treasury for a further 10% or 15% cut are progressing. Perhaps the Minister could update us on this.

Secondly, it would be interesting to know how successful Maria Miller has been in persuading her colleague, Eric Pickles, the Local Government Minister, that the arts are the bedrock of our future local cultural success. It is at a local level that young people are first exposed to the opportunities that involvement in the arts can bring. It provides training, experience and inspiration, and, yes, provides a platform for the next generation of Oscar winners. A number of noble Lords raised concerns about cultural devastation already occurring locally. We heard from the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, that the Local Government Association has calculated that by 2020, up to 90% of local culture budgets will have disappeared. That has to be a cause of concern for us.

Thirdly, if the UK is to have a thriving cultural economy, surely it has to start in schools. However, by any measure, Michael Gove’s tenure in education has been a disaster for the teaching of creative arts in schools. Thankfully, we have now seen the demise of the ill conceived EBacc proposals, which had no place at all for arts subjects, but the new proposals for the curriculum are similarly weak. Instead of making space for creativity in subjects such as art, design, music and drama, there is an emphasis on learning facts by rote, and a transmission of knowledge from adults who possess knowledge to children who do not. There is hardly any space for creative knowledge. Under this model, curiosity, interest and experimentation are squeezed out, despite evidence that those are exactly the skills that the next generation need to be successful. What representations have been made to the Department for Education and Skills about the ongoing need for a broad arts education to provide the seed corn for our next generation of artists?

I said at the outset that I agreed with the central premise of the debate. Of course, the arts have a significant role to play in the future of our economy. However, you cannot start from that position. The economic benefit should only ever be one driver of a successful arts policy. If the funding of the arts is to become predicated on a guarantee of commercial success, you inevitably end up with an inferior product. This would be epitomised by a West End full of musical revivals, for example. As several noble Lords have pointed out, who would have invested in a puppet show of First World War horses if the box office had to be guaranteed? I agree with my noble friend Lord Puttnam and others who are alarmed at Maria Miller’s singular focus on economic outcomes. New works, new blood, new thinking, irreverence and risk-taking must be allowed to flourish if we are to maintain our place as a global centre for arts excellence. With risk-taking there has to be the chance of failure or, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, put it, of there being ponies that do not quite make the final fence. That is all part of the experimentation that must be at the heart of the creative arts.

There is something more fundamental and unquantifiable about the contribution of the arts in the UK. As a number of noble Lords have struggled to express, the arts are at the heart of our well-being and our quality of life. They make us laugh, or cry. They unite us in a strong sense of shared emotion at a concert, play or gallery. Books or poetry can provide individual solace, inspiration or relaxation. I could go on, but the point is that the creative arts are a central part of our lives and identity and, yes, our civilisation. As my noble friend Lord Smith wisely put it, they are about everything that makes life worth while. We should not have to put a commercial price on that.

Finally, we need to recognise that creativity is not only the preserve of arts and culture. It also lies at the heart of our wider business success. This is why the CBI has been so concerned about the sidelining of arts subjects in schools. It recognises that future global business success will be built upon creative design, originality, communication skills and an ability to think laterally. My noble friend Lady Kennedy reminded us of Steve Jobs’ words about hiring artists and designers, rather than simply programmers, to create his products. That example is replicated time and time again across the business sector. This is why there is concern that the arts have been left to languish in a diminished DCMS. Their place at the heart of our economic revival should be recognised centre stage, with business and Treasury support. It is not surprising that commentators are beginning to speculate whether DCMS has a future at all, given its seeming inability to fight its corner successfully on these issues. Perhaps the Minister could shed some light on whether there is any truth in these rumours.

We have had a good debate today, with some very eloquent contributions. Quite rightly, we have identified the need for balance when measuring the contribution of the arts. Yes, they make a vast and growing contribution to the economy, but we should equally celebrate the contribution of the arts to our individual and collective well-being. With that in mind, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to the debate.

17:25

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft on securing this debate. On the fundamentals, I believe that we are all united. Be it dance, opera, theatre, museums, paintings, design, gardens, historic buildings, sculpture, photography, heritage, film, literature or television production, culture and the arts bring our country alive, stimulate creativity, inspire us, develop a strong sense of community, challenge and entertain us. They are essential to the fabric of our society. Alongside all these important features lies their enormous contribution to the economy.

The UK’s culture reaches out far beyond these shores. It attracts millions of tourists to our country every year, forging international relations and building trade links and greater collaboration with the rest of the world. Culture is GREAT is one of the pillars of the Government’s successful GREAT campaign aimed at promoting the UK internationally. The Government’s priority is growth. Heritage, the arts, the creative industries and tourism are essential to that success. My noble friend Lady Bonham-Carter spoke powerfully about that. The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, reminded us, with all his experience and commitment how important the creative industries are. The UK’s cultural sector—both private and publicly funded—has a significant role to play in local and regional economic regeneration. In 2011, the Yorkshire Sculpture Park directly contributed to the employment of 108 full-time jobs and was worth at least £4.68 million to the local economy. We heard from my noble friend Lady Seccombe about Shakespeare and the beneficial impact of Stratford and beyond. Margate, St Ives, Gateshead, to name but a few, all have cultural projects making a huge difference.

This Government, in recognising the value of the arts and culture, increased the share of funding from the National Lottery to the arts so that the Arts Council England is now projected to receive £262 million of lottery funding in 2015 compared with £151 million in 2010-11. Many noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, and my noble friends Lord Grade of Yarmouth and Lord Maclennan of Rogart mentioned this. Arts and culture in the UK are supported by mixed sources of funding. Nearly £3 billion of public and lottery funding will go to the arts over the lifetime of this Parliament. In the current climate, I believe that that represents a positive settlement for the sector. Public funding of the arts remains a cornerstone and from this many benefits flow. It encourages innovation and that experimentalism drives creativity. Some go on to achieve huge commercial success. My noble friend Lord Grade of Yarmouth confirmed that. “War Horse”, which was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, inspired by a puppetry show at the Battersea Arts Centre, then produced by the National Theatre, went on to achieve numerous awards and was an Oscar-nominated film.

The latest report published by Arts Council England earlier this week clearly upholds this belief that public subsidy provides the space for innovation, talent development and risk. It shows that there is a significant amount of movement between publicly funded theatre and purely commercial theatre. Public investment today can lead to the blockbusters of tomorrow and the value this brings to our economy. London theatres grossed more than £0.5 billion in sales, selling 14 million tickets last year. Furthermore, 10.6 million people living outside London visit a theatre at least once a year. The UK’s creative industries contribute more than £36 billion or 2.9% to the UK economy; they export £8.9 billion and employ more than 1.5 million people, which is around 5% of the UK workforce.

The UK film industry goes from strength to strength with its Harry Potter films, and films such as “Skyfall”, “The King’s Speech” and “Les Miserables”. British Film Institute research shows that the industry contributes £4.6 billion to the economy, as the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, highlighted There is a great history of public service broadcasting in this country, which means that the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5 can now invest more than £3 billion a year in TV programming across their channels. That supports the creative industries through direct investment and provides a degree of stability in the market. They commission innovative and culturally diverse programming, and bring the arts and our creative industries to a much wider audience. Furthermore, recently published research commissioned by Arts Council England shows that the UK arts and culture sector had a turnover of £12.4 billion and contributed £5.9 billion to the UK economy in 2011. Research suggests that for every £1 generated by the sector, an additional £1.43 is generated in the wider UK economy through suppliers to the sector and additional spending by those who work in the sector.

Perhaps I may give the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, some reassurance. The Government recognise that public funding for the arts offers stability and unlocks further funding. Public funding in partnership with other funding streams is the most advantageous for the long-term sustainability of the arts in this country. This includes earned income from commercial activity, private giving and philanthropy, and access to the lottery. This mixed model of funding avoids reliance on any one form of income, allows for risk and builds resilience. I was interested in what my noble friend Lord Eccles said about independence and funding, and his experience of Kew and the Bowes Museum.

In 2014-15, Arts Council England will invest £345 million into the arts. As its chairman, Sir Peter Bazalgette, has said, this funding acts as venture capital, giving confidence to others to invest in the creativity and innovations of our cultural organisations. The creative employment programme, with funding from Arts Council England until March 2015, will provide up to 6,500 apprenticeship placements, helping young unemployed people enter the cultural workforce. The programme aims to approve the first 700 apprenticeships and 500 paid internships by 31 October this year. This is something that my noble friends Lord Grade of Yarmouth and Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville were particularly interested in.

The UK is home to a wide and varied cultural offer that distinguishes us from the rest of the world, be it historic ships like the “Mary Rose” and “HMS Victory” in Portsmouth, David Bowie’s clothes to world-renowned music festivals that take place up and down the country every summer. I was mindful of the speech by my noble friend Lady Sharp of Guildford on science heritage, particularly, as it is so current, about the development which has secured the future of the “Mary Rose”. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, mentioned science and the arts and the importance of them riding together.

Four in 10 leisure visitors to the UK cite heritage and culture as the primary motivation for their visit. In 2011, more than 10 million inbound visitors to the UK engaged with some form of arts and culture. Research commissioned by Arts Council England estimates that £856 million per annum of visitor spend can be directly attributed to arts and culture. It is therefore no surprise that with more than 5.5 million visitors last year, the British Museum is the UK’s top visitor attraction and is ranked in the top five museums in the world. I acknowledge the great work which my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, have rightly highlighted. This work is, of course, replicated among the many museums across the land.

The Heritage Lottery Fund estimates that heritage tourism's direct annual impact on the economy is £4.3 billion. Including those that supply the sector and additional spending by those who work in the sector, heritage tourism contributes £11.9 billion annually to the economy. All this demonstrates the very clear benefits the cultural sector brings to our economy through tourism and the UK’s cultural status. This global status was amplified following the Olympic and Paralympic Games of last year. Britain’s overall nation brand improved, with Britain moving up one place to be ranked fourth out of 50 major countries around the world.

Last year’s Cultural Olympiad that accompanied the Games was a vast celebration of the UK as a centre for cultural innovation, creativity and a true showcase of Britain to the world. With more than 43 million visitors, participants, audience members and volunteers, the Cultural Olympiad engaged communities across the UK and inspired people to get involved in culture, including many who attended or participated in events for the first time. There was indeed something for everyone.

The Government are working to build on those great successes and it is essential that we create a lasting legacy from them. To harness all this success, we must look at ways of increasing financial resilience, by building skills in areas such as fundraising and ensuring our cultural sector continues to realise its artistic and economic value. The Government have demonstrated their commitment to the creative industries by working to introduce tax reliefs to support film, TV, animation and videogames, as the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, mentioned. In this year’s Budget, the Government also announced a package of measures to support growth and jobs in these industries through investing in the development of skills and technology. Cultural and the creative industries, including museums, libraries, publishing, designer fashion, technology and architecture, have been represented on many of the Prime Minister’s trade missions around the world. That has promoted Britain to global partners. I hope this reassures the noble Viscount, but I will look into the point that he made.

My noble friend Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville asked about philanthropy. The Government have introduced initiatives to boost philanthropy, including a reduced rate of inheritance tax for legacy giving and the recently launched cultural gifts scheme. This saw its first major gift, one of the best collections of Beatles lyrics and manuscripts, being made to the British Library only last month. We have simplified gift aid, while the Catalyst scheme has also been developed, under which £110 million has already been earmarked for arts and heritage organisations, which will unlock at least as much again from private donors. I hope it will also improve the fund-raising skills which my noble friend Lord Brooke mentioned. We should also applaud the profound generosity of those donors who have contributed almost £700 million to the cultural sector each year.

Another area in which the Government support world-class culture is through the Government Indemnity Scheme. This provides an alternative to the considerable cost of commercial insurance for museums, galleries, archives and libraries. The wonderful “Houghton Revisited” exhibition of paintings that are on loan to Houghton Hall from the Hermitage in St Petersburg is a recent example, and what an uplift that is to the economy of rural Norfolk as well. So from Sir Robert Walpole’s magnificent collection of old masters to digital innovation, there is a place for all kinds of creativity and endeavour.

This year, Derry/Londonderry is the UK’s City of Culture; the next City of Culture for 2017 is due to be selected later this year. Enlightened cities recognise the value which culture has as a driver for tourism in showcasing the best their city can offer. I am particularly mindful of the successes in Liverpool. I was glad to hear my noble friend Lord Maclennan raising the lord mayor of London’s initiative, which should surely be applauded. Beyond the City of Culture, councils across the country are in partnership with cultural groups to deliver music education hubs—a key component of the national plan for music education, which is seeing an investment of more than £200 million in music education. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, said and I would like to consider very much what he said about some particular examples.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, the Government have been working closely with arts sector representatives and the Arts Council as part of the review of the national curriculum. We are due to publish the cultural education plan shortly; I know that my noble friend Lady Bonham-Carter referred to that.

While this Government do not seek to dictate to local authorities how they spend their money, DCMS Ministers are in discussion with the Local Government Association about how local authorities are approaching the pressures of existing budgets. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that Ministers and officials engage regularly with other government departments on cross-departmental policy.

Noble Lords have mentioned the forthcoming spending round and I want to reassure them, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, that I know from my discussions with Ministers that they are being absolutely robust about setting out the vital role that the cultural sector plays and about the manner in which it can contribute to the return to growth. Conversations are still ongoing.

We have had an exceptional debate. There is so much more to say. I have listened very carefully to what has been said and I thank my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft and all noble Lords for giving us this great opportunity to explore the considerable importance of culture and the arts.

[Lord Puttnam]

Before the Minister sits down—

[Baroness Northover]

There is not time, I am afraid. The Minister must finish and we have to conclude within a minute and a half.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I apologise to noble Lords. The resounding view from us all is that the cultural sector and all who work within it contribute to the UK economy as well as enriching national life. The arts and culture are part of the route to national recovery. We must grasp every opportunity to allow culture and the arts to flourish and the UK economy to prosper.

17:41

[Baroness Wheatcroft]

My Lords, we are into extra time already so I will be very quick. I thank my noble friend for his reply, best described as very sympathetic and non-committal. I also thank everybody who has taken part this afternoon. The extraordinary variety of expertise that has been exhibited demonstrates what a very special place this is. I thank noble Lords from my heart.

Motion agreed.

House adjourned at 5.42 pm.