House of Commons
Prayers
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Oral Answers to Questions
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
1. What steps he is taking to encourage responsible dog ownership.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
Good morning, Mr Speaker.
The Government are introducing a range of measures to tackle irresponsible dog ownership, including: extending the criminal offence of allowing a dog to be dangerously out of control to all places, including inside the dog owner’s home; requiring all dogs to be microchipped from April 2016; and powers to enable local authorities and the police to respond to incidences of antisocial behaviour that involves a dog before the situation becomes dangerous.
Rehman Chishti
I thank the Minister for that answer. In my constituency, Medway council has been running a local community initiative offering free microchipping and advice on looking after dogs. What are the Government doing to encourage such community initiatives that help to foster responsible dog ownership?
Mr Heath
That is exactly what we want to see happening, and I applaud my hon. Friend’s local council for promoting responsible dog ownership. We provided £50,000 of funding to three welfare charities to carry out community engagement programmes in targeted hot spot areas with known problems of antisocial behaviour with dogs. Final reports are being received and we intend to publish the results for further dissemination of best practice. Educating the public on how to look after their dogs properly is absolutely essential to tackling irresponsible dog ownership.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
What assessment has the Minister made of the cost of microchipping to the consumer? What discussions has he had with the devolved Administrations to ensure that we have a UK-wide approach?
Mr Heath
I am not quite sure who the consumer is in this instance. Presumably, the right hon. Gentleman means the dog owner. Most of the microchipping will be done by charities and will be free to owners. A number of charities are happy to work with us on that, so I do not think that we are talking about prohibitive cost. We are working with the devolved Administrations so that, as far as possible, we have consistency across national boundaries.
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)
One of the charities the Minister has been working with is Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, which is focusing particularly on encouraging more responsible attitudes in younger people. May I commend to the Minister the video “Bully Breed”, which it launched in Parliament recently and which could be a good educational tool for schools and youth groups?
Mr Heath
Indeed. Battersea Dogs and Cats Home does a lot of very good work to promote responsible dog ownership, not least because it sees the consequences when things go wrong, and I certainly commend its work. I hope we will be able to make people appreciate that, whether through ignorance, neglect or malice, it is simply unacceptable to have a dog that is a danger to other people under any circumstances.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
While we welcome compulsory microchipping and the extension to include private property in pursuing prosecutions of irresponsible dog owners, why did the Government not also include dog control notices as part of the measures, something that the Dogs Trust has been calling for and which would go a long way to helping to solve this problem?
Mr Heath
Of course, the Home Office is introducing the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, which will deal with precisely this problem. I cannot see the obsession with the label that is placed on those orders—it is the outcome that matters. What matters is the fact that flexible tools will be available to the police and others to deal with this nuisance in the way the hon. Gentleman wants. The measures will be in the Bill, and he will have the opportunity shortly to discuss whether they go far enough and whether there are any opportunities for improvement.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
2. What progress he has made on opening up new markets to British producers.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)
Mr Speaker, good morning.
The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs continues to work with UK Trade & Investment and industry to promote exports and address market access barriers. We have opened the pork markets in China and Australia, expanded the beef market to Hong Kong, and opened poultry, beef and lamb markets in Russia. We continue to work hard to open and maintain markets for UK goods. We also champion British food at the world’s key trade events.
Nick de Bois
Good morning, Mr Speaker.
I would like to press the Secretary of State, if I may. Given the continuing emerging strength of the BRIC—Brazil, Russia, India and China—countries, what scope is there for British products in that market?
Mr Paterson
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to spot the growth in these markets. Last year, our exports to China grew by 6%, our exports to India by 7% and our exports to the USA by 9%, and only last week the Prime Minister was in Russia talking to President Putin about increasing our exports there. At the moment, the BRIC economies represent only 3% of our total export market, but there are massive opportunities to expand further.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
16. Happy Thursday, Mr Speaker. Will the Secretary of State reflect on the fact that the British food producers industry makes a significant contribution to the UK economy? What impact would it have on that industry, were the UK to leave the EU?
Mr Paterson
The hon. Gentleman is right to spot the importance of food production. It is the largest manufacturing sector in the country, and we would like to see exports expanded into Europe and the BRIC countries, as I have just said.
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
The Opposition were pleased to see the Prime Minister in the USA this week negotiating a trade deal on behalf of the EU to open up that new export market to the British food industry. I was disappointed to note the Secretary of State’s failure to support his Government’s Queen’s Speech in its entirety last night. Does he agree with his Prime Minister and President Obama that the UK is better off in the EU? Yes or no?
Mr Speaker
Presumably, that is with reference to the opening up of new markets to British producers?
Mr Paterson
I entirely agree with the Prime Minister that we would like to increase our exports to the EU and around the world, and that is why he was doing sterling stuff in Russia. I entirely endorse his policy, which is that we should renegotiate and then put the proposed settlement to the British people. The question for the hon. Lady is whether her wishy-washy Wally of a shadow leader will give the British people a choice.
Mary Creagh
I am not sure where we stand on those words. I always play the ball, not the man, Mr Speaker. It is interesting to note that the Secretary of State is a little rattled.
At a CBI dinner last night, Roger Carr, its president, said that Britain needed to be in the EU in order to build our export base. Membership of the EU gives us access to a domestic market of 500 million people. Our export trade deals are negotiated through the EU. Nearly three quarters of our food exports go to our European neighbours. Once more, will the Secretary of State explain how Britain’s leaving the UK would help jobs, exports and growth in the British food industry?
Mr Paterson
We are talking about exports. We want to export to Europe, but yesterday’s results for the French economy, led by her leader’s close ally, show that unemployment there has rocketed to 10.6%. In such circumstances, it is hard to sell and increase our exports to the eurozone. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) is on exactly the right lines in looking at the BRIC countries. We want to export more to Europe, but we also want to export to expanding parts of the world, such as the BRIC countries.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
3. If he will consider banning live animal exports from British ports; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
Banning the export of live animals would be illegal and undermine the principle of the free movement of goods enshrined in the treaty on the functioning of the European Union.
Charlie Elphicke
My constituents are concerned about live animal exports: they think them bad for animal welfare and the local economy. Will the Minister confirm that no amendment could be made to any of the harbours or ports Acts that would be effective in tackling this cruel and unwanted trade?
Mr Heath
The key piece of legislation here is the Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847, which would be a singularly inappropriate vehicle for any such ban, because its aim is to ensure that ports are available to all without discrimination. Even were one to set that aside, however, no such ban would be legal under the free trade rules that this country is not only a signatory to, but the architect of.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Does the Minister envisage that in any renegotiation of the terms of the UK’s membership of the EU, the capacity to change the law in this regard would be one of the things agreed?
Mr Heath
We should not confuse animal welfare issues, on which we will continue to push for changes, and the free movement of goods and services, on which this country has a clear position. We are in favour of the free movement of goods and services, and we are unlikely to argue for significant changes to that basic principle.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
4. What steps he is taking to support the glasshouse industry; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
DEFRA works with colleagues across Government to support sustainable development and remove regulatory barriers. We work with colleagues in the EU to support fruit and vegetable producers through reform of the common agricultural policy, the general marketing standards and the fruit and vegetable producer organisation scheme. The Government support and encourage innovative approaches to growing through research and development, the agri-tech strategy and the green food project.
Robert Halfon
Is my hon. Friend aware that my constituency of Harlow—in particular, Roydon and Nazeing—has the highest concentration of cucumber and pepper growers in the United Kingdom? Will he support the excellent Lea Valley Growers Association and suggest how we can help it to expand? Will he also meet me and the association to discuss these matters?
Richard Benyon
I think every Member of the House is well aware of my hon. Friend’s commitment to his local growing businesses. He is a stalwart supporter of them. We want them to expand, not only for the local jobs that would create, but for our food security. That is why, for example, we have done combined horticultural production and energy research to try to assist companies such as those in his constituency with the energy they use, which is a big outgoing—and why we have an agri-tech strategy, drawing together engineering skills, R and D, and genotyping to try to reduce costs, using the fantastic innovation we have around the country. I am happy to consult him to see what more we can do to help specific growers in his constituency, who do a fantastic job.
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
5. What steps he is taking to safeguard the future of forests and woodland.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
We have set out our commitment to protecting, improving and expanding England’s forestry assets. This includes establishing a new body to run the public forest estate, maintaining a core of forestry expertise in government and supporting the forestry sector to improve its economic performance. We are also giving greater priority to plant health and we look forward to receiving the final report of the tree health and plant biosecurity taskforce later this month.
Gavin Williamson
The Forestry Commission owns a considerable amount of land in and around my constituency, including on Cannock Chase and Highgate common. What action are the Government taking, along with the Forestry Commission, to work more closely with voluntary organisations such as the Staffordshire wildlife trust to improve not only access, but the wildlife management of these important local beauty spots?
Mr Heath
The hon. Gentleman has absolutely hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what we set out in the forestry and woodlands policy statement. We made it clear that we want the new public forest estate management organisation to work closely with local communities to improve the delivery of public benefits such as access, recreation and biodiversity. The Forestry Commission is already taking that commitment forward by developing a new package of community engagement measures.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
The Forestry Commission’s strategy stated clearly that recent outbreaks of tree health problems, such as oak processionary moth, underline the need to maintain an experienced team of pathologists and entomologists capable of carrying out both strategic research and “fire brigade” investigations of new problems. Will the Minister therefore rule out any new cuts to DEFRA and its agencies in the forthcoming comprehensive spending review, particularly as that would endanger the future survival of our country’s trees and forests?
Mr Heath
It is desperately important that we not only keep together the cadre of experts we have, but expand it. There is a need to recruit new expert entomologists, for instance. The hon. Lady mentions oak processionary moth, which is a significant problem, but there are many other potential diseases and pests that we need to be aware of. I am absolutely clear that we need to retain that centre of expertise in the Department. That is exactly what the tree health and plant biosecurity taskforce is looking at. It is not for me to pre-empt what the spending review might say, but it is certainly our intent to ensure that we protect essential services to protect tree health.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
6. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport and farmers on mitigating the effects of High Speed 2 on farms affected by the proposed route.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
The Government are committed to ensuring that the construction of the high-speed rail line is undertaken as sympathetically as possible. That is why we have asked HS2 Ltd to undertake a draft environmental statement to better understand the impacts of the scheme on affected parties, including farmers. The draft statement will set out the likely significant impacts, as currently understood, and will identify proposals to avoid, reduce or remedy those with a significant adverse impact.
Michael Fabricant
Whatever we might think about the principle of high-speed rail—I am actually for it—it can hardly be sympathetic, as the Minister said, given that the route that we have chosen, the Labour route, crashes through rural England and affects many farms. What discussions has the Minister had with the National Farmers Union about compensation for farms that will be decimated, with fields being separated from other fields, and land shortages being created by 100 metre swaths?
Richard Benyon
The environmental statement is published today and will be available in the Library. We have had meetings, and in February the National Farmers Union and the Country Land and Business Association signed up to a voluntary agreement with HS2 Ltd that sets out the process for contacting landowners to discuss gaining entry to their land. It also contains a fee structure and a duty of care commitment. This will help HS2 Ltd better to understand the impacts of the scheme on farmers in my hon. Friend’s constituency and elsewhere along the route.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
Will the Minister also discuss with the Secretary of State the problems that farmers in my constituency are facing as a result of proposed business developments on their land to improve the rural economy being put on hold or stopped altogether because of the blight?
Richard Benyon
We certainly remain willing to work across Government to ensure that those kinds of concerns about the undoubted impacts are raised. There is huge experience in relation to other infrastructure developments that have taken place over recent years and decades, and I can assure my hon. Friend that we will work closely with him to get this right.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
7. What steps he is taking to improve the horse passport system.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)
The Government remain committed to strengthening the horse passport system. I met members of the Equine Sector Council for Health and Welfare’s strategy steering committee to discuss this and other issues on 21 February. My noble Friend Lord de Mauley will be meeting them again next week to discuss these matters further.
Caroline Nokes
A single horse passport-issuing organisation could improve traceability and bring greater rigour to the system. What transitional arrangements is my right hon. Friend planning for the more than 1 million horses in this country that already have passports and that are far more likely to end up at slaughterhouses than next year’s foals?
Mr Paterson
My hon. Friend speaks with real authority on this matter, having been chief executive of the National Pony Society before entering the House. That is one of the 75 bodies that issues horse passports. She makes the very sensible point that more than 1 million passports have already been issued. We are working with the European Commission, which has sensibly suggested that we move to a single database, and we will obviously work closely with the passport-issuing organisations as we work out the transition to the new system.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
On the question of having a single process across Europe for dealing with horse passport fraud, does the Secretary of State believe that it would be harder or easier to tackle such fraud if we left the European Union?
Mr Paterson
We are discussing this matter immediately with the European Commission, which has put forward the sensible proposal that member states should have a central database. The issue might be subject to renegotiation at a later stage, at which point I would love to hear the hon. Gentleman’s opinion on whether he would push his party leader to back us in giving the British people a choice on the renegotiated settlement.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
Everybody agrees that there must be reform and improvement of the horse passporting system, but under the current system there is a derogation for native breeds such as Welsh mountain ponies and Exmoor ponies. Without that derogation, it would become almost financially impossible for people to continue to keep those breeds. Will the Secretary of State consider keeping the derogation so that we can continue to see those wonderful ponies on our wild hills and mountains?
Mr Paterson
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. He is right to say that a number of breeds are currently excluded. We will have to work this out as we discuss the new system, but I also hope that he will see the merits of having a centralised database, which we will work through with the passport-issuing authorities.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
Bore da i chi, Mr Speaker—good morning to you.
The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has become infamous for U-turns, but now our Eurosceptic Secretary of State has been forced into making an embarrassing EU-turn as a result of the horsemeat scandal. He scrapped the national equine database last year, right in the middle of a tendering process, to save £200,000. Now the European Commission has told him to re-establish a central equine database. How much will it cost to set it up again?
Mr Paterson
The hon. Gentleman is wrong. We called a meeting with senior members of the equine sector before we had discussions with the Commission, and we all agreed that the system we inherited from his Government is a mess and badly needs to be improved. He exaggerates the importance of the national equine database as he left it, because it did not contain food chain information. We will work closely with the industry. We have seen success with the dog industry contributing to the microchipping programme, and we will work with the equine industry to see how it can help to build the new database.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Is there any scope in these proposals to help to combat the growing problem of fly grazing? Farmers and landowners in my constituency are intimidated by Gypsy and Traveller groups who let their horses graze on their land, when the only route open to them is civil prosecution.
Mr Paterson
My hon. Friend makes an important point, which I discussed with senior representatives of the horse industry at the Royal Windsor horse show on Saturday. There is a real problem with fly grazing, but we are taking measures forward in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill which I hope will lead to a reduction of the problem.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
8. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the forthcoming legislation on dangerous dogs.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
May I congratulate the hon. Lady again on both the tenor and content of her Adjournment debate speech on this subject last night? As she will know, there have been several discussions between DEFRA and Home Office Ministers on how the new measures contained in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill will apply to low-level incidents involving dogs.
Julie Hilling
My constituent, 14-year-old Jade Lomas Anderson, was the most recent person to be killed by dangerous dogs. Despite the Minister’s assurances, the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, all the animal welfare charities, the British Veterinary Association and the Communication Workers Union still believe we need dog control notices to prevent dog attacks and do not believe that the current proposals will do enough to prevent injuries to people and other animals by aggressive dogs. Will the Minister please reconsider his position so that we can do more to prevent tragedies such as the one that befell Jade and her family from occurring in the future?
Mr Heath
We certainly need to do everything we can to avoid that sort of tragedy. The fact is that nine children and six adults have been killed in dog attacks since 2005 and 12 of those took place on private property. On the question of what species of injunction we use to prevent irresponsible dog ownership, I believe, as does the Home Office, that its proposals provide the flexibility we need. I do not think that having a proliferation of different measures with different labels, which I am afraid was a characteristic of the previous Government’s approach, is necessarily the right way forward. We will be able to discuss this, however, in the context of the Bill, and I hope we will come to a satisfactory conclusion.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
I believe that assistance dogs are wonderful selfless animals as well providing an invaluable resource for individuals with an impairment. Will my hon. Friend confirm that, as a result of this Government’s proposals, future attacks on assistance dogs will be considered to be an aggravated offence?
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
9. What steps he is taking on flood insurance.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
10. What steps he is taking on flood insurance.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)
We are at an advanced stage in negotiations with insurers towards producing a successor to the statement of principles. Today, the Association of British Insurers has written to say that insurers will continue to abide by the current agreement for a month beyond the end of June to allow further time for the outstanding issues to be concluded. I am placing a copy of the letter in the Library of the House. We are aiming to conclude negotiations as soon as possible to ensure that households can continue to access affordable flood insurance.
Jessica Morden
Home owners in flood-risk communities are becoming increasingly anxious about this Government’s failure to get a deal on flood insurance. Two hundred thousand properties in flood-risk areas face the prospect of either higher premiums or not getting insured at all. Extending the talks is fine, but when are we going to see a deal on this issue?
Mr Paterson
The current arrangements are not guaranteed to hold premiums down. We are seeking an arrangement that will last well into the future, will deliver affordability and comprehensiveness, and will not impose a huge burden on the taxpayer. The hon. Lady may wish to pop into the Library, or, if she comes to see me later, I will give her a copy of the letter from the ABI. She will see that the tone of the letter demonstrates that we are very close to an agreement, although there are still some important issues to be resolved.
Mr Bradshaw
A one-month extension is simply not good enough. The Government have had three years in which to sort out the problem, and, in the meantime, householders and businesses in Exeter and throughout the south-west face huge hikes in their premiums because of the uncertainty. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor understand that no country in the world has a free market in flood insurance, and that there will have to be some sort of underwriting if there is to be a deal?
Mr Paterson
Having seen the floods in Exeter, I know that this is a key issue there. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will welcome the new schemes, which will be of great benefit to many thousands of his constituents. I cannot negotiate with him on the Floor of the House, but we are fully aware that a great many people are vulnerable to increases in premiums, and we view this as a real priority. I think that the fact that the ABI has told us that only one month is needed for us to conclude our important discussions shows how close we are to an agreement.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I welcome the news about the ABI, but can my right hon. Friend reassure us that enough time is available for the introduction of the legislation that will be required to replace the statement of principles, given the time frame involved? Can he also reassure us that it will cover home contents insurance for those who live in rented accommodation that is flooded?
Mr Paterson
As my hon. Friend—who chairs the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee—is aware, we will be presenting a water Bill in the summer, and we shall have an opportunity to include clauses that will lead to the legislation that is required. We are convinced that, whatever happens, there will have to be some form of legislation to ensure that the arrangement is comprehensive. The detail to which my hon. Friend refers will be dealt with in the negotiations.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
17. I pay tribute to the Secretary of State and his Ministers for the hard work they have been doing. Does the Secretary of State share my frustration over the fact that it seems to be the ABI and the insurance industry—one of our great successes in this country— that are exerting the pressure, and holding out for some sort of subsidy from the taxpayer in order to secure an agreement?
Mr Paterson
Having visited my hon. Friend’s constituency during the floods, I am fully aware of the importance of the issue to her constituents, but it is a complex issue. We are trying to find a long-term solution, and to sort out the conundrum of affordability, comprehensiveness, and not imposing a long-term burden on the taxpayer. I pay tribute to the ABI for the constructive manner in which it has engaged in the regular meetings and discussions that have taken place. We are not quite there yet, but I hope to be able to come to the House soon to announce a resolution of the problems.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
14. Has the Secretary of State seen a report, published this week, which suggests that rather than there being a once-in-a-thousand years chance of the Thames barrier being overwhelmed by rising sea levels, the statistic could be once in a hundred years or even once in 10 years? What are the implications of that for insurance costs in London?
Mr Paterson
We have begun preliminary investigations of the prospects of long-term flooding. As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is a possibility of major construction projects which may help.
Mr Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement. Residents of Pagham and Middleton-on-Sea, in my constituency, greatly valued the visit by the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), on 29 April. Surface water flooding was a huge problem in my constituency on 10 June last year, and it is now becoming clear that silt build-up in the Pagham and Aldingbourne rifes exacerbated that flooding. Will my right hon. Friend encourage the Environment Agency to give greater priority to routine clearing and dredging of the main river water courses that are so important in preventing and mitigating flood damage?
Mr Speaker
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should seek an Adjournment on the matter. He might even get it.
Mr Paterson
I shall be brief, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend has raised a very important point. I think that the Environment Agency has a role to play in clearing major waterways, but I am also talking to the agency about speeding up the ability of landowners to look after low-risk waterways, where there is also a problem in rural areas.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
The Secretary of State has been given a welcome breathing space with the month-long extension of the statement of principles negotiated by the Labour Government. That, however, will come as little consolation to the company in Calderdale that is facing an increase in its flood insurance excess from the current level of £500 to a staggering £250,000, putting jobs and the local economy at risk. Does the Secretary of State really believe that that is a price worth paying for his ideological support for a free market in insurance?
Mr Paterson
That is a glorious question, because the hon. Gentleman could not be more wrong. He describes the problem with the existing system left because of the incompetence of the Labour Government, who made such a mess for 13 years. We are trying to bring forward a better system that will deliver affordability to some of our most vulnerable citizens. We will deliver; they didn’t.
Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)
12. What steps his Department is taking to promote community orchards.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
Community orchards provide a place for local people to reconnect with nature, and they encourage biodiversity. That is why we have worked across government and with the European Union to make it easier for local people to establish community orchards.
Jesse Norman
In Herefordshire, the Bulmer Foundation does outstanding work in opening up community orchards for disadvantaged people of all backgrounds, and only last week Orchard Art was celebrated at a special service in Hereford cathedral. Does the Minister of State share my view that community orchards can have enormous social as well as environmental value, and will he join me in congratulating the Bulmer Foundation on its Orchard Art initiative?
Mr Heath
Herefordshire has the distinction of being the second best county in the country for production of orchards. In 2012, research commissioned by Natural England found that community orchards produced a range of valuable benefits over and above the fruit they supply. They provide a haven for wildlife, lock up carbon and enhance the quality of life of the people living around them. I do indeed congratulate the Bulmer Foundation on the work it is doing and the difference it is making for local communities.
Mr Speaker
Order. I do not wish to be unkind to the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), but I want speedily to move on from fruit to bees. I call Mr David Nuttall.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
13. What recent assessment he has made of the health of the UK’s bee population.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)
Threats to the health of bees are many, and their impacts change from year to year. Our National Bee Unit’s bee health inspectors report a mixed picture. While the foulbrood diseases are at historically low levels and exotic pests remain absent, the varroa mite is still a major concern. NBU inspectors are assessing what impact almost 12 months of poor weather is having on our bees and will report later in the year.
Mr Nuttall
I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. Given the importance of bees to our environment—and, of course, our orchards—what more can his Department do to make it easier for people to take up beekeeping and encourage a new generation of beekeepers in this country?
Mr Paterson
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to stress the supreme importance of encouraging the growth of pollinators all round, and our healthy bees plan provides £1.3 million to fund the NBU, with its inspection, training and diagnostic services, which encourage people to take up beekeeping.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
In Northern Ireland, the predicament of the bees is just as critical as it is in England. Has the Secretary of State had any discussions with the Northern Ireland Assembly, and specifically the Minister responsible for this area, Michelle O’Neill, to ensure that the United Kingdom strategy is put in place across the whole of the United Kingdom, including England and the regions?
Mr Paterson
This issue is devolved, as the hon. Gentleman knows, but I will be having a meeting with the devolved Ministers very shortly, and bees and pollination will obviously be one of the issues we will discuss.
John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)
Speaking as a beekeeper myself, is the Secretary of State aware of the extreme disappointment of the British Beekeepers Association, of which I am a member, at the recent EU ban on neonicotinoid insecticides and the very grave concern that as a result farmers will go back to older, and more damaging, insecticides and that the health of Britain’s bees could therefore inadvertently be more at risk now than before the ban was introduced?
Mr Paterson
My hon. Friend speaks with real authority on this, so what he says is worrying. We argued exactly that case: that there should not be a precipitate ban until proper analysis has been done of the alternatives. There may be legally licensed alternatives, such as pyrethroids or organophosphates, but they are not nice, and we were not convinced that the case against neonicotinoids had been made following the analysis of our field trials. We were supported by eight member states—important ones such as Hungary, with 2 million hectares producing 20,000 tonnes of honey—but, sadly, we were outvoted and the Commission has decided to bring in a two-year ban.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)
DEFRA’s priorities are growing the rural economy, improving the environment, and safeguarding animal and plant health. In recent weeks, we have helped farmers respond to the pressures created by the recent severe weather, not only through immediate support, but by bringing together the banks, farming charities and industry to co-ordinate farmers’ short-term access to finance and build the long-term resilience of their businesses. As we seek to enhance rather than merely protect our natural environment, we are exploring the potential for biodiversity offsetting, so that we can improve our cherished habitats and wildlife, while enabling the rural economy to prosper.
Rehman Chishti
I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. In Medway this summer, following a successful bid to the central Government weekly collection support scheme, recycling will be collected weekly. What action are the Government taking to enable more local authorities to increase their recycling rates?
Mr Paterson
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The UK is on track to meet its 50% household waste recycling target. Decisions on collection regimes are for local councils to make, taking into account local circumstances, including local logistics, the characteristics of the area and the service that local people want. The Government are encouraging a number of councils to run incentive schemes for various kinds of recycling collection, through the reward and recognition scheme and the weekly collection support scheme. The Government have also introduced higher packaging recycling targets for business, which will help to increase household recycling rates.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
T3. A draft Bill on banning wild animals in circuses was published by DEFRA in April but did not feature in the Queen’s Speech. Will the Secretary of State confirm whether that Bill will be introduced in this House in this Session or not?
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
The Bill has been introduced to the House for pre-legislative scrutiny. It is in the hands of the Select Committee at the moment, and I am not going to pre-empt the outcome of the Select Committee’s considerations.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
T2. May I return the Government to the issue of antisocial behaviour caused when a large number of dogs are packed into a small garden, which not only causes a nuisance to neighbours, but is not good for the dogs themselves? I have written to the Home Office about this, the letter has been transferred to DEFRA, and I have not yet had a response. May I please have a meeting with the relevant Minister?
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Almost a year ago, the then Secretary of State told me that a deal on flood insurance was imminent. Is not the real villain of the piece here the Lib Dem Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who has blocked a deal being reached? Is this not another example of a shambolic Government, who have had three years to sort this matter out and now have to get a further month’s extension, with there still being no guarantee that a deal will be in place after that extra month?
Mr Paterson
That is complete nonsense. The Chief Secretary and senior Ministers are all working closely together on this issue. I am sorry that we may have nearly shot the Labour party’s fox. We are working closely with the Association of British Insurers and we will deliver a good deal.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
T4. What is my right hon. Friend doing to make sure that the new single farm payment forms are as short as possible?
Mr Heath
That is a very interesting point, because one of the main principles underlying our negotiation for common agricultural policy reform has been that whatever comes out has to be simple and deliverable. One of the mistakes made back in 2005 was that we had an over-complicated system and a lack of resource to deliver it, and as a result we had a shambles in the Rural Payments Agency.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
In answer to previous questions from me about how we can protect people from the adverse effects of low-energy lighting, Ministers indicated that they would need to get support from other European partners. What steps have they been taking in the past six months to do that?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
This matter is dealt with by Lord de Mauley, and I will ensure that the hon. Lady gets a detailed analysis of what we have been up to.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
T5. What part are the Government playing in ending the practice of fish discards?
Richard Benyon
I am delighted to report that at 6.15 am yesterday we got an agreement that the Council of Ministers is now in a position to do a deal with the Parliament that means we will, at last, see a meaningful end to the practice of discarding perfectly edible fish. This is part of a radical reform of the common fisheries policy, for which Members from all parts of the House have been calling for a great many years.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
What is the Government’s estimate of the costs of policing the badger cull, and who will pay for it?
Mr Heath
We have made it very clear that this Department will cover the marginal costs to the police forces involved of policing the cull, when it takes place. Obviously, the level of costs will be entirely dependent on the level of illegal activity in the areas in which the cull is taking place.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
T6. The Secretary of State often makes reference to the common agricultural policy delivering public goods for public money. Does he agree that the delivery of increased amounts of safe, high-quality, affordable food from this country’s farms is one such public good?
Mr Heath
I certainly do agree. The clear intention of CAP money is to support those areas where the market does not provide, as I know my hon. Friend would agree. But we need a thriving agricultural industry in this country, and that means that we ensure that for the future we have the food security that this country desperately needs.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Calcium, iron and other nutrients have been added to white flour in this country for over 65 years, and it is very worrying to hear that the Government are considering possibly scrapping that. Does the Secretary of State see that as an important addition to nutrition for families, particularly in hard-pressed times, or simply a regulatory burden that he wants to get rid of?
Mr Heath
We are considering a review of the national rules relating to bread and flour as they apply to England. We held a public consultation seeking views on possible deregulatory options, which closed on 13 March 2013. We are analysing the 47 responses that we received, in conjunction with the Department of Health. We are committed to ensuring that any policy decision on the removal of mandatory fortification will take into account an assessment of the health impacts, the impact on industry and the implications for other parts of the United Kingdom and the interests of consumers. We intend to announce our decision before the summer recess.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
T7. Is the Minister aware of any international examples of disease control that could be applicable in the bid to control bovine TB in the UK?
Mr Paterson
In opposition, I visited the USA; I went to Michigan. Last month, I went to Australia and New Zealand and I shall shortly be visiting the Republic of Ireland. What they all have in common, in getting rid of this horrible disease, which is a zoonosis, is that they bear down on disease in cattle and they bear down on disease where there is a reservoir in wildlife. That is exactly what we intend to do.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
In recent days, it has emerged that burgers served in Leicester schools that were classified as halal contained pork. There have been similar examples elsewhere in the country. Will the Secretary of State undertake to have urgent discussions with the Food Standards Agency to ensure that halal food is indeed halal food?
Mr Heath
This is a matter of great concern to consumers; I perfectly understand that. That is one reason why we have had meetings with the religious authorities, and of course with the Food Standards Agency. It is the responsibility of manufacturers, processors and retailers to ensure that what they provide is what they say they are providing. Certification is a matter for the religious authorities; that is not a Government issue, but we will work closely with them to ensure that what people eat is what it says on the label.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
T8. Hill farmers across Britain were badly affected by the severe weather at the end of March and in early April. Some of the worst hit were in Macclesfield. Will my hon. Friend confirm to the House that the payment process will be clearly communicated, and that the very welcome funds will be available at the earliest opportunity?
Mr Heath
I certainly will. All the key information was announced yesterday; the hon. Gentleman may be aware of that. The National Fallen Stock Company will administer the scheme both for farmers who are members of the company and those who are not. Farmers should visit the National Fallen Stock Company website or call its telephone helpline to get the details and check whether they are eligible. Applications must be received by 30 June and payments are expected to be made by the end of July.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
The Government said that the pilot badger culls are being carried out to test whether badgers can be killed humanely. They still have not released the criteria by which the cull will be assessed to ascertain whether it is humane. When will those criteria be published—or is the Minister holding them back because he knows perfectly well that they will demonstrate that it is not possible to kill them in a humane way?
Mr Heath
It is always interesting when people know the results of a trial before it is carried out. These trials will indicate whether it is possible to effect this cull in a humane, a safe and an effective way. That will be reviewed by an independent panel, quite independent of the Department and those taking part in the cull, and we will then assess that and report to the House in due course.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
T9. Pillar two funding of the post-2014 CAP arrangements is vital to continue the rural development in the Vale of Glamorgan. Local decision making and administration has been key to that success in the past. This is at risk. Will the Secretary of State do everything possible to ensure that it is maintained?
Mr Heath
The Welsh Assembly Government are developing the next rural development programme for Wales. We are in a difficult positions in that we have not quite reached the conclusion of the negotiations. When the European Commission confirms the UK allocation of pillar two funding, we will be in a better position to assess the funding available for each of the UK’s Administrations.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Does the Minister think that the fortification of bread and flour with nutrients is a burden on business or an important way of ensuring that hard-pressed families facing the cost of living crisis get the nutrition that they need?
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
T10. I recently met my National Farmers Union branch on a farm in Barrowford to discuss the challenges that many are facing, with many leaving the industry. What steps is the Minister taking to encourage new entrants to the industry?
Mr Heath
That is absolutely crucial. We need to attract the best and the brightest into farming, the other land-based industries and the food industry. It is the biggest manufacturing industry in this country. That is why a short time ago I launched a future for farming review, which is under way. I hope that it will provide us with a clear picture of where the barriers are and where the opportunities are for attracting people into these industries.
Mr Speaker
We are extremely grateful to the ministerial team and to colleagues.
Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
1. What progress the Electoral Commission is making on preparations for the full confirmation test in the transition to individual electoral registration.
Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon)
The Government, not the Electoral Commission, are responsible for the set-up and delivery of the full confirmation test, which is likely to start in July. The commission will be evaluating and reporting on the process and providing electoral registration officers with guidance and tools to support them in the test. The commission’s evaluation will focus on how the technical system for transferring and handling the data has performed and it will then make an overall assessment of whether everything is in place for the successful delivery of individual electoral registration in October.
Wayne David
Does the Electoral Commission agree that there is real concern out there about the IT system that is being used in the process of confirmation, and that it is very important to allow sufficient time for the transition to IER to ensure that things are done properly?
Mr Streeter
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. The IT system is extremely important. That is why a full and proper assessment will be made in good time before IER is introduced in 2014. I remind him and the House that, in any event, at the 2015 election all those on the register in 2014 will be automatically transferred, so there is some safeguard.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
2. What support the Church Commissioners provide to refurbish church bells.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry)
Church bells are an important part of our national character and heritage, and the Church of England has some limited grant aid available for work to bells and bell frames that are of historic interest. This is distributed by the Church Buildings Council, which also provides advice to help churches approach other funders, including the Heritage Lottery Fund.
Andrew Stephenson
In April I joined the Colne ringers for a practice night in the bell tower of St Bartholomew’s church in Colne. The main reason for my visit was to help publicise the ringers’ work and encourage other people to join to help ring the church’s eight bells. However, while I was there it was clear that the installation is showing signs of its age, with much of it dating back to the early 1800s. The ringers hope they can refurbish the bells for their 200th birthday in 2014. Is there any help that the Church Commissioners can provide?
Sir Tony Baldry
In addition to the possible grant aid for the bells at St Bartholomew’s church in Colne from the Church Buildings Council and the Heritage Lottery Fund, which I have already mentioned, bell frames are eligible for support under the listed places of worship grant scheme to reclaim the cost of VAT on them. Useful advice and assistance are also available from county and diocesan ringing associations.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
3. How many staff the National Audit Office employs; and what information the NAO collects on their previous employment.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough)
The National Audit Office currently employs the equivalent of 870 full-time staff. It collects detailed information on an individual’s employment and education history when recruiting staff.
Mr Hollobone
The National Audit Office undertakes a lot of good work investigating many public bodies. Does my hon. Friend think the make-up of his staff is sufficiently broad, from all sorts of different sectors in the private and public world, for them to do their job effectively?
Mr Leigh
Yes, I do. As an audit institution, the NAO’s core accounting skills are obviously provided through qualified accountants, many of whom join as trainees. The NAO currently employs about 330 qualified accountants and 200 trainees, graduate and school-leaver, from all sectors and all types of society. It also recruits staff from public and private sector backgrounds to provide operational expertise and disciplines, including economics, statistics, information and communications technology, banking and finance. In addition, it has an active inward and outward secondment programme to enhance its skills and experience base.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the hon. Gentleman send the House’s congratulations to NAO staff, who do such a good job, particularly in bursting the bubble on High Speed 2? They have shown what an absolute waste of public money it will be. It will cost approximately £50 billion, which could be spent regenerating our towns and cities.
electoral commission committee
church commissioners
Public Accounts Commission
Business of the House
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
I wonder if the Leader of the House will give us the business for a couple of days next week.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)
The business for next week will be as follows:
Monday 20 May—Remaining stages of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill (Day 1).
Tuesday 21 May—Conclusion of the remaining stages of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, followed by motion to approve a European document relating to Syria.
The business for the week commencing 3 June will be:
Monday 3 June—Remaining stages of the Energy Bill (Day 1).
Tuesday 4 June—Conclusion of the remaining stages of the Energy Bill.
Wednesday 5 June—Opposition Day [1st Allotted Day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject to be announced.
Thursday 6 June—There will be a debate on a motion relating to student visas, followed by general debate on pollinators and pesticides. The subjects for these debates have been nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.
The provisional business for the week commencing 10 June will include:
Monday 10 June—Second Reading of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill.
I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 6 June will be:
Thursday 6 June—Debate on the ninth report of the Home Affairs Select Committee on Drugs: Breaking the Cycle.
May I also take this opportunity to be among the first to congratulate the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee on her re-election?
Ms Eagle
I thank the Leader of the House for announcing the business for next week and the business that will follow yet another recess. I also add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) on her unanimous re-election without an election as Chair of the Backbench Business Committee, which is to her enormous credit.
Next week the House will return, albeit briefly, to debate the remaining stages of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill. This will ensure that the historic progress on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender equality accomplished by the previous Government will be consolidated. I thank the Leader of the House for making two days available for Report and Third Reading. Will he consider doing that for other Bills? After all, his legislative programme is hardly packed.
Back in February, the Prime Minister was triumphant about his EU budget deal. He tweeted:
“Today we agreed the first ever cut in the EU budget and the British rebate is safe. This is a great deal for Britain.”
Three months on, we have learned that the UK will have to pay £770 million extra. May we have a statement from the Prime Minister on the budget, and may we seek an assurance from him that it will not go up again?
Last week, as all the grandeur of the state opening of Parliament unfolded, the Government presented a united front and revealed a mouse of a legislative programme. Before the Cap of Maintenance was even back in the wardrobe, Tory Eurosceptics had tabled a motion regretting their own Government’s Queen’s Speech. No. 10 said that it was “relaxed”.
By the weekend, the Tory rebellion had gathered pace and the Cabinet joined in. Both the Education Secretary and the Defence Secretary announced that they wanted out of the European Union, but that, sadly, the Liberal Democrats would not let them have a vote on it. The hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) proclaimed that if the rebellion ended the coalition Government, “so be it”. The hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) pronounced that the Prime Minister’s referendum plan was “not yet believable”. Meanwhile, the right hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) denounced the rebels as “irresponsible” and “offensive”, and the Minister without Portfolio, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) said that it would be a catastrophe to quit the EU.
As the Tory party descended into chaos, the Prime Minister shared with us his unique concept of firm leadership. A leader should proclaim that he is “intensely relaxed”, leave the country, blame the Liberal Democrats, panic, and rush to publish an entirely spurious private Member’s Bill that contains no implementation clause and no money resolution.
In 2006, the Prime Minister said that the Conservative party should stop “banging on about Europe”. In 2009, he said that his party’s position on Europe was “settled” and promised that he
“will not have an undisciplined team whoever it is. Full stop.”
However, last night 116 of his Back Benchers voted against him in the 35th Tory rebellion on Europe in this Parliament. If that is not an undisciplined team and a Prime Minister who follows his party rather than leads, will the Leader of the House tell me what is?
In last night’s rebellion, 13 Parliamentary Private Secretaries voted against the Government. I would like to draw the attention of the Leader of the House to a clause in the ministerial code:
“Parliamentary Private Secretaries are expected to support the Government in important divisions in the House. No Parliamentary Private Secretary who votes against the Government can retain his or her position.”
That seems to be fairly clear. Will the Leader of the House confirm that those PPSs will be sacked, or is the Prime Minister going to rewrite the ministerial code?
In light of the Tories’ panicked Back-Bench EU Bill, I also want to draw the attention of the Leader of House to some comments that he might remember making to the Procedure Committee on private Members’ Bills a few weeks ago. He said that
“if a Government really wants a Bill and it is contentious, it should find time in the legislative programme for it.”
Am I correct, therefore, that the Government do not want this Bill at all?
In “The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte”, Karl Marx wrote that history repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. With the antics last night, we are firmly in the farcical stage and we have a Conservative party determined to prove that Karl Marx was right.
When the economy is flatlining, living standards are falling, and people up and down Britain are suffering real pain, people will not forgive a Government who are too focused on their own obsessions to address the challenges that the country faces.
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for her response to the forthcoming business.
On the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, we are providing two days on Report. I remind the hon. Lady that under the last Government, there were Sessions in which virtually no Bills were given two days on Report.
Mr Lansley
That is not the case. Seventeen Bills were announced in the Gracious Speech last week, which is in line with the single year numbers we saw in a number of Sessions under the last Government, including 2008 and 2009. As part of the reforms of this House, and of improving scrutiny, we gave 14 Bills two days on Report over the last two Sessions, and we are proud that the business I have just announced will give both the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill and the Energy Bill two days on Report. The hon. Lady is barking up completely the wrong tree.
The Prime Minister was told by the Labour party that he would not deliver a reduction in the EU budget, but he did deliver one. As a consequence, our rebate is protected and we will have the opportunity to debate that in due course. Once the decision is through the Council, we will be able to bring forward a Bill to ratify the EU own resources decision.
The legislative programme is not a mouse. Not only was it a full programme, but we are making good progress with it in a way that is, I think, exemplary. Ten Bills have been published in the week since the Gracious Speech: the Offender Rehabilitation Bill, which is important as it tackles an area of reform that has not been tackled previously; the Care Bill, which is important and cannot be called an insignificant piece of legislation; the Intellectual Property Bill; the Local Audit and Accountability Bill; the Mesothelioma Bill; the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill; the Pensions Bill; the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill; the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill; and the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill. All have been published within a week of the Gracious Speech and that is a substantial programme of legislation.
The hon. Lady’s final points were all, in one way or another, about the vote last night, which in all respects proceeded from a complete misapprehension. The point is that the Government did not have a policy on whether there should be an EU referendum Bill, and so voting for the amendment last night—which many of my colleagues in the Conservative party did, as did Labour Members and a Liberal Democrat Member—was not voting against Government policy because the Government did not have a policy on that. Therefore, the rest of the hon. Lady’s argument does not follow. The simple point is that what is in the Queen’s Speech is agreed Government policy. There may be no Government policy on something that was not in the Queen’s Speech, so of course Ministers could not vote for it, but everybody else was able to vote as they saw fit, which is precisely what they did last night.
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
May we have a debate on the potential misuse of money by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority? IPSA appears to have employed incredibly expensive lawyers from Matrix Chambers in pursuing what looks like a county court action. That can be explained only if it is trying to intimidate the Members involved, which would be quite improper. May we have a response on that from those on the Front Benches?
Mr Lansley
If I may, I will say to my right hon. Friend that because this matter relates to a particular case, I do not want to talk about it in any detail from the Dispatch Box. For his convenience, and that of the House, I note that there is scope for the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, of which I am a member, to ask questions about how IPSA undertakes its activities and the value for money it achieves. We held public evidence sessions last Tuesday, which of course affords an opportunity for IPSA to be held accountable.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Does the Leader of the House recall that a few weeks ago after the fire at Daw Mill colliery I asked him for a statement on the coal industry, with particular reference to UK Coal, which owns another two pits—Thoresby and Kellingley? I drew his attention specifically to the fact that because Daw Mill was the big money pit owned by UK Coal, the other two pits could be in serious jeopardy. More importantly, it could cost the Government up to £450 million to pay out for the pensions and redundancies if UK Coal goes under. Would it make a lot of sense for this Government, this coalition, to say to the coal authority that they should be allowed to take over the remaining assets of UK Coal and save what remains of the coal industry—in other words, to nationalise it?
Mr Lansley
I do remember the questions the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members have asked on that subject. I repeat that I cannot, in the House, remotely enter a discussion of the commercial prospects of UK Coal. However, I again say that the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), is closely engaged. I will encourage him to correspond with the hon. Gentleman and other Members who are directly involved.
Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is aware that the Foreign Office is undertaking an initiative on preventing sexual violence. The Department for International Development has a four-pillar programme to help women and girls worldwide, which is encouraging, particularly in conflict areas, such as the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where women and girls are particularly vulnerable. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will shortly chair the G8. May we have a statement on how he will produce his initiatives? Preventing sexual violence is important for the world. Will the Prime Minister also ensure that we do not forget that boys and men also need education to stop sexual violence?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend will recall that specific mention was made in the Gracious Speech of the priority that the Government give to the prevention of sexual violence in conflict worldwide. Indeed, the Foreign Secretary recently updated the House from the Dispatch Box on the wide range of measures that have been taken in that respect, as has the Secretary of State for International Development. If I may, I will see what opportunities there might be for the House to be given further updates, particularly in anticipation of the fact that the matter will be part of the agenda we put forward for the G8.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion 79, which is in my name and the names of other hon. Members, on Contour Homes and the Ferguson Court lift in my constituency?
[That this House condemns Contour Homes for its culpable negligence with regard to Ferguson Court in the constituency of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton; regards it as inexcusable that its failure in its duty has meant that the lift at Ferguson Court has been out of order since October 2012; understands that, due to its incompetence and lack of concern, the lift will not be repaired or replaced until 30 July at the earliest, a period of nine months in which elderly and disabled tenants have been unable to cope to the extent that some of them have been unable to leave their homes; takes the view that Contour Homes has failed in its duty and role as social landlords; and calls on the relevant authorities to consider actively whether Contour Homes should be allowed to continue as social landlords.]
That social housing organisation has been so negligent in its duties towards tenants of that block of flats, many of whom are elderly and disabled, that they have had no lift since last October. Despite the way in which I have pushed Contour Homes, they will definitely not have a lift before 30 July. Contour Homes is a social landlord. Will the right hon. Gentleman give us an opportunity to consider the matter, and ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government to look into whether such an organisation—if it can be blessed with such a word—is fit to run social housing?
Mr Lansley
I had an opportunity to look at that early-day motion as the right hon. Gentleman asked his question. He once again commendably raises the interests of his constituents. I can see how distressing the problem must be for them. Social landlords in that sense should be accountable not least through their contract with social services in respect of many of those residents. Ministers from the Department for Communities and Local Government will answer questions in the House on Monday 3 June, which might afford the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity to ask a question. The relevant authorities and Contour Homes will have taken note of what he has said in the House. Perhaps the situation will have been rectified by Monday 3 June, but if not, he can ask another question of my hon. Friends.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
Those who work in schools who suspect or witness abuse are guided, but not required by law, to report their concerns via local procedures to a school’s designated senior member of staff, his or her deputy, or another senior member of staff. It is easy to see that the potential for damage to a school’s reputation might cause any senior member of staff to be conflicted, and not to pass such concerns on to the police or local authority. Will the Leader of the House provide time for a debate on the merits of introducing a legal obligation on all teachers and other staff in schools to report directly to the police or a local authority designated officer?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I will ask my hon. Friends at the Department for Education to respond directly to her, but from my recollection—I was a member of the Standing Committee on the Protection of Children Act 1999—the barring scheme applies not simply to acts of negligence or abuse, but to omissions in relation to acts of abuse. In that sense, the guidance is quite strong. People who are in positions of responsibility for children should act if they see evidence of abuse or they will risk being barred from working in a responsible position.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
The Leader of the House will share my concern that I did not come high up in the ballot for private Members’ Bills. I will content myself with an early debate, if he could arrange it, on the accountancy and auditing profession. Is he not concerned by the increasing evidence that the auditors of great banks have failed us? They never blew the whistle and they never did the auditing job properly. We are now in a situation where KPMG’s senior partner is the chair of the new Financial Conduct Authority. Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange an early debate so that the House can scrutinise this scandal?
Mr Lansley
Given the range of aspects involved, the hon. Gentleman may find that this is a suitable subject not only for an Adjournment debate but for consideration by the Backbench Business Committee, given its reconstitution. Members across the House with a range of interests in the auditing process would then have the opportunity to air them.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
This week, on the anniversary of President Hollande’s presidency, it was announced that France has entered a triple-dip recession. Can we therefore please have a debate on the impact on UK exporters of the economic policies currently being pursued in France, such as increased Government spending, increased Government borrowing and the implementation of a 75% top rate of tax—an economic approach consistently and repeatedly supported by the Opposition?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. Of course, it is a little early for the Opposition to decide the subject of their Opposition day debate on 5 June. Given what my hon. Friend says, they might like to have a debate on the policies they wish to pursue. A year ago, the Leader of the Opposition said, “What President Hollande is seeking to do in France, I want to do in Britain.” Would that not be a suitable subject?
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
The Leader of the House will know that last Friday, at a Special Immigration Appeals Commission hearing, Abu Qatada made an offer to leave the country voluntarily if the treaty with Jordan was ratified by the Jordanians. Given that it has taken seven years and successive Home Secretaries to remove Abu Qatada, can he tell the House whether that offer has been accepted? When can the House have an opportunity to debate the treaty before it is ratified?
Mr Lansley
I fear that I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman the answer he is looking for, but I will of course be in contact with the Home Secretary to see if I can procure an answer for him.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
Over the last decade, transport capital spending in London has been about 10 times that of the regions. Much, but not all of that, has been caused by spending on Crossrail. Recent comments by the Mayor of London imply that he has momentum and Government support for Crossrail 2. Will the Leader of the House confirm that there will be no money spent on even preparatory work for Crossrail 2 without a full debate in this House?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend refers to the momentum of the Mayor of London, which is, frankly, unstoppable. On his point about infrastructure investment, I hope he knows that, in addition to the investment in London, which is vital to the economy of the country as a whole, we are proceeding with many important investments in other parts of the country, including £1.8 million for local authority major schemes, and the pinchpoint fund, which provides £317 million for 123 projects across the country. Of course, the benefits from the biggest item of infrastructure planning, High Speed 2, will assist major cities right across the country, including those in the north-west.
Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)
This is export week. If the Government are serious about promoting exports, why did they not arrange for a debate on them in the House during export week, and may we have one soon?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Gentleman will know that matters relating to growth were entirely relevant to yesterday’s Queen’s Speech debate on growth and the economy and that jobs and business, including export matters, were debated last Friday—I am sure he was in his place for that debate—so the subject of exports has been relevant to debates in the past week. He is right, though, that exports are essential. If we are to get growth, we cannot rely, as has been the case in the past, on debt-fuelled growth, whether Government debt or consumer debt. We need more balanced and sustainable growth, not least by winning in the global race, and that is what we have set out to do.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
To give the House a break from the Leader of the House’s colleagues’ obsessing about Europe, may we have, before the summer break, a serious debate about the Commonwealth countries and south Asia? There is a controversial Commonwealth conference in Sri Lanka, there has been a recent terrible tragedy with wider implications and civil disorder in Bangladesh, there is a new Government of Pakistan, there are difficulties in the Maldives and there is an Indian Government with issues of civil disorder and the death penalty. I think that many colleagues would appreciate an extended debate on those countries and their policies.
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for making an important point, not least in referring to the tragic events in Dhaka, by which many of us have been deeply shocked. All those issues, including the elections in Pakistan, demonstrate the importance of good governance and democracy in many of these countries. In Pakistan, we have seen for the first time the democratic election of a new Government following a full term from a previous democratically elected Government, which is positive. I hope that there will be an opportunity for a debate on all these countries, but it might be appropriate if he or others were to seek such a debate from the Backbench Business Committee. The prospect of the upcoming Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting would be a good basis for an application.
Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
I think I recall the Leader of the House saying on a previous occasion that he is a regular train traveller, so he will be aware that, at least according to train announcements now, trains do not stop at stations anymore. Instead, they have “calling points” and “embarkation stops”, and apparently some trains now “platform”. May we have a statement from the Secretary of State for Transport about the adoption of a universal term for station stops, because as well as irritating regular travellers, the other terms used confuse tourists? Perhaps I could make a bid for a simple term: could we call them “stations”?
Mr Lansley
It is a good question. I will ask my hon. Friends in the Department for Transport about it, although they might be loth to standardise everything in the railways. I must say I agree with the hon. Gentleman, though, about the announcements. I particularly liked the announcement made one morning when we arrived late at King’s Cross: “We apologise to our customers”—not passengers, of course—“for the delay to the service this morning. This was due to the late running of trains.” It was a statement of the obvious.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Parliament has been at the centre of political debate this week, partly thanks to you, Mr Speaker, for selecting yesterday’s amendment. What has gone unnoticed about the vote, however, is that 117 coalition MPs, both Conservative and Liberal Democrat, voted for the amendment, but only 36 voted against. May we have a statement next week from the appropriate Minister to explain how we get Government legislation introduced? Does the Deputy Prime Minister have a complete veto, despite what coalition MPs voted for?
Mr Lansley
I do not think we need a statement, because I can give my hon. Friend an explanation now. Government Bills are introduced on the basis of agreed Government policy and the relative priority of the various measures. In this case, the issue is that where two parties are in a coalition Government, it requires the agreement of the two parties. It is a simple matter; it is a necessity of coalition. Coalition gives rise to its own particular requirements, and that is one of them.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
When can we have a debate on who runs Tory Britain? The Queen’s Speech did not contain a Bill to reduce the effects of smoking or excessive drinking. The promised Bill on lobbying is again not included, despite the Prime Minister saying in an impassioned speech a fortnight before the general election that this would be the next scandal. Is not the answer to “Who runs Tory Britain?” the lobbyists, who are red in tooth and claw, in greater numbers and with greater power than ever, and running the country in the interests of their greedy paymasters?
Mr Lansley
I am sorry, but that is completely wrong. The simple fact of the matter is that certain measures were not included in this Queen’s Speech because policy had not been finalised and consultations were continuing. That is not a consequence of lobbying; it is a consequence of the processes that are necessary to finalise policy.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend allow time during Government business to debate the 111 out-of-hours emergency number? He will recall that when he was Secretary of State for Health and I had cause through family experience to use that number, I drew to his attention some simple remedies that could be effected. A debate at the earliest opportunity would be very useful.
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend will recall that the Opposition chose health and care as the subject of Monday’s debate, when these issues were quite properly raised. There have clearly been operational difficulties associated with aspects of 111, in particular with the three new providers in the south-west, the south-east and Oxfordshire during its introduction in April. Equally, we could go back much further. For example, 10 areas of the country were running NHS 111 on a pilot basis when I left the Department of Health in September last year, and in many places it is operating successfully. What Members throughout the House need to understand is that the 111 service provides something that everybody has a right to expect, which is a straightforward non-emergency mechanism for accessing all aspects of the NHS.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I am sure the Leader of the House will agree that the security staff in this building do a very good job in a very efficient and friendly way, that we rely on them and that we work with them very well indeed. He will also be aware that negotiations are ongoing on a new roster arrangement for them. Unfortunately, the new rosters were imposed without the agreement of the staff, despite ongoing negotiations, which resulted in industrial action being taken on Tuesday. Will he convey to the House of Commons Commission and the Metropolitan police the fact that many Members of this House find it quite unacceptable that a new system should be imposed while negotiations are ongoing? Will he also urge them to continue with negotiations rather than imposing a new arrangement and to recognise the value of the co-operation and good will of those staff, which all Members enjoy at present?
Mr Lansley
I of course endorse what the hon. Gentleman said in the early part of his question, but I would remind him that we are, as I understand it, in the midst of negotiations between the House service and the Metropolitan police, as contractors, about security. That is not a matter for me, but as a member of the House of Commons Commission, I know that its members will have listened to what he has said. It is always our objective in the House of Commons Commission to work with staff to create something that not only is the best possible service, but shows the House as an exemplary employer.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
May we have a debate on drug rehab centres? They play a vital role in our community, but the industry is largely unregulated and standards vary greatly across the country. In Bournemouth we are witnessing a worrying trend, whereby a number of London-based councils are sending some of their residents who require drug rehab to programmes in Bournemouth, without informing the council. That practice needs to stop.
Mr Lansley
What my hon. Friend says is interesting. I will of course raise with my hon. Friends at the Home Office, how the system is working, but from our point of view we need to ensure proper regulation where required and move increasingly towards payment by results, a mechanism that I hope will enable us to deliver more effective drug rehabilitation.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
May we have a debate in Government time on the reforms to legal aid and judicial review? Judges are now having to support litigants in person instead of hearing reasoned argument, which is seriously undermining the rule of law and weakening one of the checks and balances on the state. May we please have an urgent debate on that issue?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Lady will have noticed that the Ministry of Justice will be answering questions on Tuesday, and she might wish to raise this matter at that time. I cannot offer Government time, but such issues may also be raised on the Adjournment or, collectively with other Members, through the Backbench Business Committee. Many days in this Session have been provided for the Backbench Business Committee. I am happy to listen to applications for Government time for general debates, but the intention was for Back-Bench Members collectively to decide where their priorities lie.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
Figures last week show that the massive growth in payday loans, which started under the last Government, is continuing and the debt charity StepChange has given an example of a couple who had 36 payday loans between them. May we have a debate on the problem of high-cost debt and on how to encourage responsible lending?
Mr Lansley
The statistics from StepChange to which my hon. Friend refers serve to confirm the Government’s view that there are serious problems within that market that need to be addressed. That is why we announced an action plan on 6 March. My hon. Friend will also be aware that the Office of Fair Trading is prioritising enforcement and compliance. It will also announce in the next few months whether it will be referring the industry to the Competition Commission in the light of concerns over the way in which the market operates.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
May I press the Leader of the House further on the issue of a register of lobbyists? We have already had one lengthy consultation, myriad answers from the Dispatch Box and two private Members’ Bills, including a particularly brilliant one in my name. If the Government had got behind that Bill, it would now be on the statute book.
Mr Lansley
I will of course look—as Ministers regularly do—at how we can secure progress in relation to our commitment to this, but it is a complex area, as the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith) has explained to Members at this Dispatch Box. I am sure that she will have a further opportunity to discuss this matter with Members.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
In May 1904, in front of a crowd of 10,000 people, the international philanthropist Andrew Carnegie opened Kettering library, having provided £8,000 for its construction. Last Sunday, a smaller but no less select crowd celebrated the refurbishment of the library and the reopening of the main entrance, thanks to the good work of the Friends of Kettering Library and of Northamptonshire county council. May we have a debate in Government time on libraries and their importance to local communities?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend makes a good point on behalf of the library in his constituency, and I am pleased to hear about its refurbishment. He and Members across the House will be aware of the importance of libraries. I remember that, during the last Government, many libraries were the subject of local authority reductions of support. Many libraries are now working much more effectively, however, often through charitable and voluntary contributions. The library sector has made considerable progress in recent years. I cannot promise time for a debate, but I am sure that my hon. Friend’s words will have been heard.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
The level of business rates is a cause of great concern for many small businesses. Of particular concern is the delay in assessing appeals to the Valuation Office Agency. May we please have a debate in Government time on the important question of business rates and the way in which the VOA is operating?
Mr Lansley
I fear that I cannot immediately offer time for a debate of that kind, but I will of course raise the issue with my hon. Friends. I do not have with me the details of the Valuation Office Agency’s performance in relation to its targets, but I will explore that too, and ensure that the hon. Gentleman receives details of the progress it is making.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
Please may we have a debate about women in the workplace, and about what support is being provided to help more women to work? Such a debate would highlight the fact that more women than men are starting apprenticeships, that more women are starting businesses than ever before, and that more women are in senior positions in business than ever before. However, it would also highlight the fact that there is still a very long way to go before women are equally represented on company boards.
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend makes a good point well, and it is one that the Government completely recognise and support. The coalition Government are now introducing measures that will make a big difference to families and to women wanting to choose whether and when to return to work—in particular, tax free child care support meeting 20% of child care costs for working families with children under 12, starting from the autumn of 2015. That will be worth £1,200 per child and it will benefit 2.5 million families.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Will the Leader of the House agree to a statement or time for a debate on the decision by the Isle of Man Government to introduce for the first time licence fees for United Kingdom and Northern Ireland boats, while retaining fishing grounds for their own Isle of Man fishermen? Northern Ireland fishermen have been fishing there for hundreds of years. This is an important matter, which impacts on me and the businesses of Northern Ireland fishermen. We need a debate in this House on this issue.
Mr Lansley
I agree that this is an important matter, of which I confess I was not previously aware, and I will talk to my hon. Friends about it. I cannot promise time for a debate, but given the interest of this particular matter to a number of Members, it might be a suitable topic for an Adjournment debate application.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
I am very concerned about the scandal surrounding Connaught Asset Management and the impact it is having on a number of my constituents. I am particularly concerned about the reluctance of the Financial Conduct Authority to take specific and appropriate responsibility for regulating the fund operator and investigating irregularities surrounding Tiuta plc. May we have a statement on this matter, particularly concerning how the FCA operates in dealing with these sorts of scandals?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend makes a point on behalf of his constituents. There are many issues in respect of which we want to make sure that we have the right procedures in place to deal with misconduct. In this particular instance, I will, if I may, take advice from my hon. Friends and provide a response. There are a number of routes by which directors responsible for misconduct can be tackled through the companies legislation or, indeed, insolvency practitioners through their professional bodies. I will look at the issue in greater detail and ensure that we respond to my hon. Friend.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
I would like to draw the attention of the Leader of the House to the issue of modern-day slavery, which is mentioned in early-day motions 40 and 54.
[That this House sends its condolences to the families of the more than 600 people killed and to the many more injured in the collapse of the garment factory near Dhaka, Bangladesh; notes that this factory supplies clothes to some of the big name companies on Britain’s high streets; further notes that the factory managers and owners are alleged to have ignored signs of cracking in the building reported days before the collapse in a building that had had five more storeys added than it should have; further notes that factories in developing countries like Bangladesh are under enormous pressure to minimise costs from the western multinational companies buying from them; believes that western multinationals buying from developing countries have a responsibility to ensure that the factories producing these goods provide a safe environment for their workers to work in and for workers’ rights to be fully recognised and respected; further believes that the western multinationals that bought clothes from this factory should provide compensation to the bereaved families and the injured survivors; calls on the Government to work with the Bangladeshi government to secure safe working conditions for Bangladeshi workers supplying British markets; and further calls on the Government to enact laws that will provide for sanctions if western multinationals selling goods in this country fail to fulfil their responsibilities to ensure safe and decent working conditions for those working in their supply chain.]
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman is as shocked as I am to see the death toll in the New Wave Style factory near Dhaka, which now stands at more than 1,200. This means that the garments sold by Monsoon, Gap, Bonmarché, Primark, Walmart, Matalan and Kik are contaminated by modern-day slavery. May I ask that the promised regulation on narrative reporting of quoted companies be brought by the Business Secretary to the Floor of the House for debate, so that we can extend it to ensure that the “human rights reporting” that is talked about will include the eradication of modern-day slavery from company supply chains?
Mr Lansley
Yes, I am aware of that issue. As mentioned at business questions previously, I thought it very important to have the exhibition in the Upper Waiting Hall, which drew the attention of Members to the issue in this country. We also need to be aware, however, of the extent of the impact of corruption on other countries. The Minister of State, Department for International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr Duncan) takes the issue very seriously. I will raise the matter of company reporting with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, as the hon. Gentleman requested, and try to secure a reply for him.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
May we have a debate on job provision and particularly the role that job clubs can play in helping people to find work? We have three job clubs in Tamworth, and I have no doubt that they have played their part in helping people find work and reducing local unemployment—down by 314 over the last 12 months to the benefit of local families and households.
Mr Lansley
Yes, my hon. Friend is right. I am glad that he and other Members have been actively involved in job clubs in their constituencies, helping people to find work. That is tremendously important. There are more vacancies in the economy, and we want to match people to jobs as best we can. As my hon. Friend knows, it is also important for this Government to support job creation. Since the election, we have seen an increase of one and a quarter million in the number of private sector jobs. We knew when we came to office that we could not sustain the number of public sector jobs, which has been reduced. Happily, though, the private sector jobs are increasing at a rate several times greater than the loss of jobs in the public sector.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
Tomorrow, the Furness poverty commission will produce its report on the hidden levels of deprivation in my constituency. I am sure that the whole House will share my gratitude to the commissioners for their work and my shock at the grinding hardship that they have catalogued. Does the Leader of the House agree that we should find time to debate the important recommendations of this report and those of other local poverty commissions set up by concerned Members and citizens up and down the country?
Mr Lansley
I have not had an opportunity to read the report, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the Government are keen to assist people. We were discussing job creation a moment ago. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the best route out of poverty is finding work, and we need to enable people to do that. The number of workless households has fallen, but people who are in need and people who are unable to work require support. If the hon. Gentleman is able to raise these issues with my colleagues at the Department for Work and Pensions on Monday, when they will be responding to questions, they will, I know, be anxious to do all that they can to help.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
May we have a statement or a debate on Afghanistan and Pakistan, following the election of a new Government in Pakistan whose policy on Afghanistan will be crucial to security in the region?
Mr Lansley
I cannot promise an immediate debate, but I think my hon. Friend will be aware that we have committed ourselves to providing, and continue to provide, a quarterly statement to Parliament about issues involving Afghanistan. The political situation in Pakistan is, of course, of instrumental importance to the securing of the political future in that part of the world, and, as my hon. Friend has said, the elections on 11 May were important in that regard. As I said a moment ago to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), the democratic transfer of power from one civilian Government to another after a full term is a milestone, and we should recognise it as such.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Benjamin Disraeli said:
“A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy.”
I do not know that I would go quite that far, but one element of the way in which we do our business here that is an organised hypocrisy is the private Member’s Bill process. We waste vast quantities of time, and we pretend that we are advancing a legislative process, but we are not. I have been saying this for a couple of years, and I suspect that quite a few Conservative Members may now want changes to be made to the private Member’s Bill process so that it becomes a bit more user-friendly—let us put it that way. Will the Leader of the House promote measures to ensure that the process is no longer an organised hypocrisy?
Mr Lansley
I am not sure that I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s description. During the Session that has just ended, 10 private Members’ Bills secured Royal Assent.
Chris Bryant
None of them were private Members’ Bills. They were Government handouts.
Mr Lansley
I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is simply wrong. The Members concerned chose those Bills. [Interruption.] The first Bill on the list was the one that became the Mental Health (Discrimination) (No. 2) Act 2013. In no sense was that a handout. It had been promoted previously by Members, and was taken up by a Member in the ballot last year.
The hon. Gentleman asks whether there is scope for improvements in the procedures. The Procedure Committee is discussing that, and I have given evidence to it. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has done so as well, but in any event I look forward to hearing what the Committee has to say.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
Seventy years ago this very evening, 133 airmen embarked on the daring “dambusters” raid from RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire. My hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Karl MᶜCartney), my namesake and good friend, will be attending a sunset ceremony in his constituency this evening to pay tribute to those airmen. May we have a debate in the House so that we can pay tribute to the 53 airmen who were killed on that raid on the night of 16 May 1943, and to the 55,573 airmen from Bomber Command who died during the second world war?
Mr Lansley
As my hon. Friend says, and as our hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Karl MᶜCartney) agrees, we have an opportunity to recognise once again the ingenuity that lay behind the bouncing bomb, and the immense bravery and flying skills demonstrated in that raid by 617 squadron under the leadership of Wing Commander Guy Gibson VC; and, in particular, an opportunity to recognise all those in Bomber Command. As we reach the 70th anniversary, it is good to know that, although those events are taking place in Lincolnshire, people throughout the country may have an opportunity to visit the splendid memorial to Bomber Command that was unveiled in London last year.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Despite what my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) has said, there has been palpable excitement today about the private Member’s Bill draw. Would it not be good modernisation to make that part of the business of the House, and have an FA cup-style draw with a bag of balls at the Table of the House in each Session? I accept that football is different, however, in that football clubs are all looking for a good draw to get into Europe, unlike the Leader of the House’s little Englander party, which wants a good draw in order to get out of Europe.
Mr Lansley
I cannot pre-empt what subjects the Members selected in that ballot might choose to bring forward in their private Member’s Bill, but if they were to bring forward a Bill the purpose of which was to give the people of this country a decision over our future in relation to Europe, I would be in favour of that. It is not a vote to get out of Europe; it is a vote to decide our future in Europe. We in the Conservative party are in favour of that. What is the view of Opposition Members? Do they deny the people of this country the opportunity to take a decision? I think they may have to make a decision on that themselves.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
Last Friday Pendle residents John and Penny Clough were at Buckingham palace to receive the MBE that Penny Clough has been awarded in recognition of the successful Justice for Jane campaign named after their murdered daughter. Their campaign to allow a right of appeal on judge-made bail decisions was the focus of my successful Bail (Amendment) Bill in 2011, which was adopted by the Government as section 90 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. Given the success of the Cloughs’ campaign and the news from the Crown Prosecution Service that the new law is being used to help victims, may we have a debate on what more the Government can do to support the victims of rape and domestic violence?
Mr Lansley
I am pleased my hon. Friend has been able to bring to the House that recognition of his constituents Mr and Mrs Clough, not least because I know how difficult it must be for people who have suffered such a tragic and terrible loss then to use that as a means to try to ensure others do not suffer as they have suffered. It is a difficult thing to do, and it is right that we pay tribute to them for doing it.
In the context of what the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—who has now left us—was saying, my hon. Friend demonstrates how the private Member’s Bill can have considerable benefits, not just because Bills achieve Royal Assent, but because they create the agenda for legislation, which in his case the Government followed up. May I also just say that the Government have now ring-fenced £40 million to fund support services in relation to domestic violence and sexual violence, including national helplines and rape support centres, but we are constantly looking for new ways to protect victims?
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Although there have been over 1,000 measles infections in Swansea since November, the number of live cases is in the dozens, not hundreds, because measles only lasts for three weeks. May we have an urgent debate about measles, not only on the case for universal immunisation, but to make the case that places such as Swansea are still open for business now—and for the centenary in 2014 of Dylan Thomas, the second-most translated poet of all time?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I do not know when we might have an opportunity to hold such a debate, but I think it is important for us to have a debate about vaccination. Some new vaccination programmes have recently been announced, which I think will make substantial progress in the prevention of disease. We have restored MMR vaccine uptake to its highest level, but, unfortunately, there is a reservoir of people who were not vaccinated in earlier years, and in many places across the country we are rightly now having to tackle that.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
May we have a debate on community football clubs? That would allow me to highlight the success of Chester football club, which since being resurrected as a community-owned club in 2010 has won three successive league titles, regularly attracts over 3,000 fans to home games, has recently been promoted to the Blue Square premier league, and we hope will march on into the Football League next year.
Mr Lansley
I am glad my hon. Friend has asked that question, as it gives us an opportunity to celebrate the success of Chester FC and all the other supporter-owned or part supporter-owned clubs, such as Portsmouth, Brentford and Exeter City. That shows the loyalty and stability that can be brought to clubs by that happening. In particular, however, I want to take this opportunity to congratulate Chester once again.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
May we have a debate on the £2.6 million owed in wages to armed forces personnel that was not paid in April 2013, following the 1.5% agreed pay increase, a decision arrived at by the Armed Forces Pay Review Body, which was applied only from 1 May 2013? That means that the pay increase applies for only 11 months rather than 12—something I have never heard of in the private sector or the public sector. May we have a ministerial statement and a reversal of that decision, to make sure that our armed forces are paid what they are owed?
Mr Lansley
If I may, I will, first, talk to my colleagues at the Ministry of Defence and establish what the position is. Of course, I will then ensure that the hon. Gentleman has a reply and that, if appropriate, any statement is given to the House.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Has my right hon. Friend seen my early-day motion 103?
[That this House notes that the Ministry of Justice fully understands the need for tough sentences regarding those who own dangerous dogs; further notes however that the owner of a dog which inflicted a 5 cm flesh wound and a severed artery on a constituent of the hon. Member for Harlow has escaped unpunished whilst the dog’s walker was handed a £250 compensation order; and asks the Secretary of State for Justice if he will consider reviewing the legislation on dog attacks in public areas to help put an end to such sentencing.]
The early-day motion deals with a dangerous dog attack on my 14-year-old constituent Brandon Elston. Does my right hon. Friend not agree that sentences such as a £250 compensation order for the attack are unacceptable? May we have an urgent statement to review the sentencing for dangerous dog attacks? Will he write to the Justice Secretary?
Mr Lansley
I completely understand why my hon. Friend raises an issue of concern to him and, no doubt, to his constituents. There will be an opportunity in this House to raise issues relating to dangerous dogs, not least in the Second Reading debate on the Anti-social behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill on Monday 10 June, because that legislation includes further measures relating to the subject. Of course I will raise the issue of sentencing with the Justice Secretary, but my hon. Friend will understand that Ministers should not seek to allow our own views to intrude on the sentencing decisions being made by courts under the guidelines.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
Before the G8 summit, may we have a debate on aggressive tax avoidance by multinational companies? Does the Leader of the House share the public’s outrage at this morning’s news that on UK sales last year of £4.2 billion Amazon paid tax of just £3.2 million—almost as much as the company received from Government grants?
Mr Lansley
The opportunities for debate are there, including in respect of the Finance Bill, as the hon. Gentleman will know. It is this Government who are introducing the general anti-avoidance measures—those were not introduced by the previous Labour Government. [Interruption.] The shadow Leader of the House says that they are not a panacea, and she is right, because this requires enforcement. That is why the Treasury has devoted additional resources specifically to ensuring enforcement against tax evasion, abuses and anti-avoidance schemes that trespass on the tax system.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
May I apologise for not being present at the start of business questions? Unfortunately, I was taking a call on the matter I am about to raise. The Kirkby campus of Knowsley community college in my constituency is earmarked by the college for closure, which I am wholly opposed to. Will the Leader of the House urge the relevant Ministers to enter into talks with Knowsley council, the community college and me to try to secure a future for the Kirkby campus?
Mr Lansley
I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will understand that I had no prior knowledge of the situation he describes, but, recognising his concern, I will of course raise it with my colleagues at the Department for Education, and I hope that they will be in touch with him soon.
Backbench Business
Mental Health
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the matter of mental health.
There can be no health without mental health, and, above all else, I hope that today’s debate communicates that clearly and powerfully in the country and in this House. I start by thanking the Backbench Business Committee for recommending this most important of subjects for a debate, and the Government for finding the time to make it possible. Undoubtedly, there is a lot to debate on mental health, and I am grateful to my two colleagues—one on either side of the House—who have joined me in seeking this debate. I refer to the hon. Members for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) and for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), who hope to catch your eye, Mr Speaker, and contribute as we proceed.
Last year the House had a remarkable, moving debate on mental health, which was very personal for some hon. Members. It demonstrated that mental health is not an issue of “them and us”, but affects all of us. One in four of us may experience a mental health problem at some point.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Recent World Health Organisation figures predict that by 2030, depression will be the leading cause of diseases around the world, physical and mental. People can lose years of their life, as mental illness undermines their physical health too. Would the right hon. Gentleman agree, therefore, that mental health must be at the top of the Government’s agenda?
Paul Burstow
I certainly would. The fact that a large number of hon. Members are present, hoping to contribute to the debate, that the Backbench Business Committee advocated the debate, and that the Government have given the time suggests there is cross-party consensus that mental health has for far too long been hidden in the shadows and not awarded sufficient priority. The cost to our society of mental ill health across England, Scotland and Wales amounts to over £116 billion a year, but that does not adequately capture the human cost—the misery—that arises from it. Given that the burden of mental ill health is about 23% of the burden of all disease in our country, it is surprising that for so many years it has not been tackled with the necessary vigour. So I agree absolutely with the hon. Lady.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that, in addition to the need for continued investment in the so-called medical facilities and services that are part of treating mental health, there is a need for continued investment in the so-called talking therapies, and the opportunity to invest and grow the social services’ response to mental health services as well?
Paul Burstow
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that question. He is absolutely right that access to talking therapies—begun as a result of Lord Layard’s initiatives before the general election, which the coalition Government continued to support and which is being rolled out—is very important in enabling people to recover socially, get back into work and get on with their life. At the best performance rates, as many as half the people that go through talking therapy services recover, and that can make a huge difference to them, their families and the figures I was talking about earlier. I shall return to the subject of talking therapies in a moment.
Last year I took part in the debate from a slightly different position—I spoke from the Dispatch Box. I was able to report some important progress. We had a new mental health strategy. We had the continued roll-out of talking therapies, which the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) just asked about. Groundbreaking work was being done to reinvent child and adolescent mental health services from the inside out, to offer access to talking therapies for children and young people. We had the flowering of a new movement to establish social recovery as a goal for mental health, with the establishment of recovery colleges channelling the lived experience of mental illness into practical learning and skills, and resilience to enable people to get on with their lives.
There was the good news that the Government had backed financially the task of Time to Change, the charity sponsored by Rethink and Mind, really motoring to tackle issues of social stigma in our country. Reports since then show that the first phase of that programme has materially altered public views about mental health in this country, but the programme needs to be sustained.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman makes a good case for supporting Mind and other mental health charities, which do a very good job in changing attitudes to mental health. Is he not concerned, however, that many health authorities throughout the country are cutting funding to non-governmental organisations—voluntary organisations that do very good mental health therapy work, often on a contract basis? They are being cut, and therefore the opportunities for support for people going through crisis are reducing, not increasing.
Paul Burstow
Yes, I am concerned. The picture is complex. The figures show that spending on adult mental health services over the past couple of years overall has reduced by about 1%, which is not good, but deeper analysis of those figures shows that about half of commissioners have increased their investment and the other half have reduced their investment, so the picture is more complex than it first appears. None the less, it is concerning that services are being withdrawn where they involve providing peer support or reaching into harder-to-reach communities, particularly black and minority ethnic communities, which often get left behind and often are most prone to being subject to the most coercive parts of our mental health system. So I agree with what the hon. Gentleman said.
In the debate last year I was delighted to be able to signal the Government’s support for the Mental Health (Discrimination) (No. 2) Bill, which was introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell). It is a rare thing—as we heard earlier in the business statement, only about 10 Bills last year which were introduced as private Members’ Bills made it on to the statute book. It was great that that Bill made it on to the statute book, and I congratulate my hon. Friend and all those involved in taking it forward.
I have referred to the mental health strategy for which I had some responsibility. At its heart is the radical—I might even say revolutionary—idea that there should be parity of esteem between physical and mental health. That idea is gathering momentum. We have seen the Government place that notion in the mandate for NHS England as a driving force for the way the Commissioning Board takes its responsibilities forward. It is increasingly on the lips of policy makers and service commissioners. But the recognition that there are critical interdependencies between physical and mental health still has a long way to go.
There are more than 4.6 million people in this country living with long-term physical and mental health problems, and far too often their experience of the NHS is that they are broken down into their constituent diseases, rather than being treated as a whole person. As a result, their physical health needs are treated in one place—in many cases, in many places—and their mental health needs, if they are identified at all, are dealt with in another.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for introducing this welcome debate, which I hope will become an annual debate. He is making a very important point about the experience of service users and the lack of integration in dealing with their needs. Does he agree that we should be aiming for a well-being-based approach with a single point of entry, which will allow people to be signposted to appropriate services? That means local authorities, the health service and the third sector genuinely coming together in an integrated way.
Paul Burstow
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the need for a greater focus on well-being. It is one of the reasons why I am so pleased that the Care Bill which was introduced in the House of Lords last week has as its first and clear mission for our social care system the promotion of well-being, and it goes on to stipulate what that means in practice. It is about control and people’s ability to lead ordinary lives—the lives they want to lead in their communities. That must be at the heart of an approach to mental health that sees the whole person, rather than trying to treat them in constituent parts of the presenting conditions.
The point about failure to join up services is key. All too often, long-term physical health problems overshadow mental health problems. The results of that are all too clear—slow, and in some cases no, recovery and people living with long-term physical health problems that could have been better treated in the first place. The cost in wasted resources in our national health service is about £10 billion a year and up to a further £3 billion on medically unexplained symptoms.
Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)
My right hon. Friend talks about the need for all services to be involved, starting with social care and local authorities. Does he agree that the process needs to start even earlier and move into education and training, enabling teachers to recognise when illnesses start to show themselves? One in 10 children aged between five and 16 now suffer from mental health problems, including eating disorders and self-harm—the types of problems that will blight their lives for decades afterwards.
Paul Burstow
I entirely agree. That is one reason why the Government have committed to the talking therapies service for children and young people that has so far been rolled out. I am meeting head teachers in my constituency tomorrow to discuss how we can ensure that they commission the right mix of services to support children and young people, not least because conduct disorders, for example, cost society hugely and hold young people back from realising their potential, academic or otherwise. That is undoubtedly the case with integration, which is a key theme of tackling these issues more effectively. That is why I welcome the fulfilment of the commitments made in last year’s care and support White Paper, which my hon. Friend the Minister announced earlier this week, regarding integration pioneers and the new integration framework.
Work on mental health must be embedded in physical health services, which must be embedded in mental health services. When we consider that people with severe mental illness die, on average, 20 years younger than the rest of the population, and that that is due mostly to physical health problems, we begin to understand just how profound that diagnostic overshadowing of mortality can be. It is a scandal and it needs to be addressed. I am delighted that the Government are taking many steps to tackle it.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman is rightly concentrating on health services and how they can help mental health and well-being, but does he share my concern that other parts of Government, such as the Department for Work and Pensions, are exacerbating many people’s mental health problems through the way work capability assessments are being carried out, and that those people are having new mental ill health episodes as a result of the trauma of having to go through an Atos assessment?
Paul Burstow
Yes, and that issue, which I know is of concern to Members on both sides of the House through their constituency casework, for example, was raised in last year’s debate. Although some steps have been taken to try to improve those processes, they still do not seem to me to capture fully the important differences in dealing with mental health and, as a result, can exacerbate mental health problems. There is more to do in that area and I look forward to the Minister picking up on that issue. Given that the Cabinet committee that had co-ordinating responsibility for the mental health strategy, which is a cross-government strategy, is no longer in place, I wonder how tackling those sorts of issues will be co-ordinated in future.
It is worth noting that there are a considerable number of working-age people with a history of schizophrenia, for example, who are able and—I stress this point—willing to work. Indeed, Rethink’s schizophrenia commission identified employment rates in that group as being about 8%, with a range of 5% to 15% across the country, compared with the obviously much higher rates for the general population. Individual placement and support schemes, which are some of the most effective forms of employment support for people using mental health services, really can achieve remarkable transformations in people’s ability to take up employment. I hope that the Minister can say something on how such issues are being addressed with DWP colleagues, because that is where a cross-government strategy really should be making a difference, rather than simply addressing direct NHS provision.
Paul Burstow
I will give way one last time, but then I really must conclude.
Mr Thomas
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way a second time. Will he underline the importance of mental health trusts such as Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust, which serves my constituents, working with the local voluntary sector such as the Mind groups in Harrow and Brent? Will he therefore encourage his Front-Bench colleague to look with particular interest at the letter I am about to write to him, raising the concerns of Mind in Harrow and in Brent about the trust’s failure to work properly with the services it is providing?
Paul Burstow
I note that the Minister paid close attention to that intervention and I am sure the hon. Gentleman will enjoy the exchange of correspondence on the matter.
I want to discuss the health care aspects of parity of esteem. Curiously, not all general hospitals have 24/7 access to a mental health liaison service offering immediate support, yet we know that when that works well it can make a big difference to the quality of care, help to reduce the length of stay in hospital, especially for older people, and generate savings four times greater than the cost of running the service. There are good examples of where this has been done, particularly in Birmingham, and it is odd, given such obviously compelling evidence, that it has not yet been taken up more widely.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)
I completely agree with my right hon. Friend. There is some very good practice, including RAID—rapid assessment interface and discharge—at Heartlands hospital in Birmingham, but there are too many places where there is a complete absence of such services. The starkest aspect of the lack of parity of esteem is that there is a good emergency service—it may be under pressure but it is there—for people with physical health problems but not for those with mental health problems. That has to be addressed.
Paul Burstow
I am grateful to the Minister. Perhaps in his own speech he can say a little more about how we might better incentivise this change. Despite the compelling economic and medical benefits, these services are still not being provided widely enough.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
The more fundamental point is that a significant proportion of the money that is spent on mental health services in the national health service—about £14 billion—is focused on acute services. If we were to shift, say, 4% of that budget into community-based solutions and early intervention, that might have a much more dramatic impact on our ability to tackle the underlying problem.
Paul Burstow
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Indeed, that has been part of the approach taken in the talking therapies strategy, which is about moving the resource to where it will make the most difference at an earlier stage, and helping to promote recovery in the first place.
The Minister said that the emergency service is a stark example of where parity of esteem has not been achieved, and I want to give another example. The Royal College of Psychiatrists and its president, Sue Bailey, have been looking, on behalf of the Department of Health, at the whole issue of parity of esteem and what practical steps could be taken to address it, and it has recently published work on that. How can it be right, for example, that a recommendation by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence on the availability of a drug is a must-do for the NHS but a NICE recommendation on the availability of therapies is not? This means that evidence-based non-pharmacological treatments that are clinically effective and cost-effective are often left unimplemented. I hope that that bias will soon be brought to an end.
The same can be said for access standards. There has rightly been uproar when even small changes occur in the amount of time people wait to attend accident and emergency departments. NICE has said that a person experiencing a mental health crisis should be assessed within four hours, yet only one in three people is so assessed. I am puzzled by the decision not to set a 28-day access standard for therapy, because the NHS constitution should embody parity of esteem, and that is a tangible way it could do so. Having said that, I take heart from the revised NHS constitution handbook, which said albeit it in a footnote:
“The Mandate indicates that we will consider new access standards, including waiting times, for mental health, once we have a better understanding of the current position. We need to do this work and consider carefully the implications of introducing any new standards, before we can make any firm commitments in this area.”
Why on earth is this problem still not being understood? Why do we need yet more reviews? Will the Minister give an indication of the time scale?
Norman Lamb
We clearly need to understand the scale of the problem of access. It is a bit shocking that we do not know the figures across the country for the number of people waiting and how long they are waiting. The mandate of the commissioning board requires that it must establish that and then set access standards. That is really important work, because there is a legal obligation to seek to meet the requirements of the mandate.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Can I help the right hon. Gentleman? We said that he would have 15 minutes, but we are now on 20 minutes and other people are waiting to speak.
Paul Burstow
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was looking at the time and at my notes and thinking that I should conclude so that other hon. Members can contribute fully to the debate.
My final point concerns the power of data and the difference they can make. Will the psychiatric morbidity survey, which is due to be repeated in 2014, be repeated? I draw attention to the value of the cancer intelligence network, which has demonstrated the power and effectiveness of nationally co-ordinated data. Given that, as I have said, mental health accounts for 23% of the total disease burden in this country, it really would make sense to have a mental health intelligence network to bring together all the relevant data. I hope the Minister will address how that might be achieved.
In conclusion, estimates put the cost of poor mental health in England, Scotland and Wales at £116 billion, but the right combination of public health, sustained effort to tackle stigma, easy access to psychological therapies for all ages, and good community and crisis care could make a huge difference to that figure. More importantly, it could deal with and reduce the suffering experienced by people with mental problems as a result of our past failures. I hope the Minister will respond positively to this debate, and I am grateful to the other Members who wish to take part in it.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
It is a privilege to follow the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow). The House will recognise the work that he has done in bringing this issue not just to our attention, but to that of the wider public. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), who has done fantastic work in this area, and to my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). [Interruption.] My hon. Friend moves away from me just as I am commending him.
I want to consider mental health issues in the armed forces, because there is an urgent need to address some myths and problems. The armed forces also have wonderful examples of best practice that are not generally appreciated and have not been dispersed throughout wider mental health services.
Looking back in time, there were 80,000 cases of shell shock or battle fatigue during the first world war. The British Government, realising that they had to do something because of problems in getting troops to the front line, started looking at mental health. Changes in mental health treatment started because the military needed to deal with mental health problems.
Jeremy Corbyn
My hon. Friend is making an important point about the experience of the first world war. Does she recognise that there was a great deal of discrimination against and abuse of ordinary soldiers who suffered mental health trauma as a result of the first world war, whereas some of the officers who suffered it got therapeutic treatment in special homes around the country? There was an enormous difference between the approach taken to soldiers and to officers.
Mrs Moon
My hon. Friend is correct. Craiglockhart hospital and the work of Dr Rivers are a prime example of the excellent treatment that was given to some officers. Many people continued to cope with post-traumatic stress disorder, which we now recognise. It was not identified as a condition at the time, although it is detailed in some post-war journals. We have, however, moved forward.
To return to my original point, the military is often at the cutting edge—it needs to be—of looking at mental health problems. Post-traumatic stress disorder has risen up the mental health agenda in the armed forces, mainly because of statistics from the United States. The US Department of Veterans Affairs estimates that post-traumatic stress disorder affects 11% of veterans of the war in Afghanistan and 20% of Iraq war veterans. By contrast, the figure for the UK—these statistics are taken from a 2010 edition of The Lancet—is 4%, while 19.7% reported more common mental health disorders and 13% reported alcohol abuse.
I want to consider the issue of alcohol abuse in the armed forces and its impact on mental health problems. The Ministry of Defence has spent a lot of time providing services, raising awareness and developing programmes such as TRiM—trauma risk management—which I will look at later, and there is far greater understanding of mental health problems among the military. Much of that is thanks to the excellent work of and collaboration between the MOD and King’s college London. I draw Members’ attention to “King’s Centre for Military Health Research: A fifteen year report”, which was published in 2010 and sets out the stunning work that has been carried out. It talks about the roll-out of TRiM. The unit has helped to raise the awareness of most common mental health problems among military personnel, including depression, alcohol misuse and post-traumatic stress disorder, although that is not the most prevalent. The unit found that pre-deployment screening was not effective in picking up problems and that mental health problems did not necessarily apply only to those whose problems had been indentified before they were deployed. Who will be affected by deployment cannot be predicted.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
In the hon. Lady’s investigations into this critical area, has she discerned any difference between the ways in which reservists and regulars are treated with respect to screening and treatment? If she has, does she think that that needs to be addressed?
Mrs Moon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. When he was on the Defence Committee, he took a particular interest in this area. As I will explain later, reservists are particularly vulnerable. That is more of a problem in the US because they are deployed for longer and have less support once they are home. However, it is a major issue that we must address in the UK as we increase the percentage of reservists in our armed forces.
The work at King’s college London highlights the importance of adhering to the Harmony guidelines and the negative impact of changing tour lengths during tours. The Secretary of State for Defence announced in a statement yesterday that we are extending the tour length for two brigades that will be deployed over the next two years. That has implications and we must ensure that King’s college London is involved in tracking the changes that it brings.
Rehman Chishti
The hon. Lady is talking about the research undertaken by King’s college London. Experts at Imperial college London have said to me:
“Mental Health Services and research are a UK success story. We have produced world leading research in many areas which has led to new treatment approaches which have improved patients’ lives”.
Will she join me in paying tribute to all the researchers and academics in our country who have done so much to improve the quality of care for patients?
Mrs Moon
The hon. Gentleman is right that a number of universities are doing excellent work in this area. The centre at Oxford has done wonderful research, as have Bristol and Manchester. I have referred several times to King’s college London because of its expertise in defence medicine. I am not denigrating the work that is taking place elsewhere; I am merely highlighting the importance of the work at King’s college London.
The King’s college London research has looked at the importance of decompression, whereby serving members of the armed forces have the opportunity to spend time together and take part in physical activity before they reach home. That has made a huge difference in the mental health outcomes of serving personnel.
Interestingly, the research has identified the groups that are most at risk of problems. They are not those who have served for the longest or most frequently in the armed forces. They are the early service leavers—those who leave the service shortly after their initial training. The risk is higher among those who fulfil combat roles. We forget how small a percentage of our armed forces is made up of people who go out through the gate and pursue combat roles. That work is of great benefit to the military, but it is also important that it is sustained and utilised in our wider understanding of mental health.
I want to talk briefly about TRiM, which is about trauma resilience. It was developed and utilised by the Royal Marines. It trains individuals to identify signs of distress within their own units and within themselves. It means that problems can be identified early on, and help provided quickly. Interestingly, the trauma and resilience handbook that is given to serving personnel and their families provides advice on looking after themselves, talking about their experiences, and how to deal with returning home—coping skills such as dealing with anger and alcohol, combating stress, and sleeping better. It provides tips for spouses, partners, families, friends and parents of returning serving personnel, as well as for the returning reservist. It is a prime example of how we help prepare people for what they are going to experience. We do too little in this country to prepare people for the risks of mental health problems. We do not tell people; we are not educating our young people in how they can identify within themselves, or within their families and friendship groups, some of the risks they will inevitably face in times of difficulty throughout their lives.
I am pleased that the work of TRiM has gained traction elsewhere and been adopted by many other organisations and employers. Even a cursory internet search demonstrated that a number of organisations are using TRiM to help their employers, in particular the blue-light brigades. The police force and Departments including the Foreign and Commonwealth Office frequently train their officers in TRiM.
US research into factors predicting psychological distress among rape victims has shown that initial distress was a better predictor of subsequent psychological functioning than other variables, as well as in the treatment of rape and other types of post-traumatic stress disorder. The use of TRiM and post-traumatic stress disorder management is extending into areas that we had not previously recognised would impact on the general mental health of people in the wider community.
Another area in which the military has taken time to expend its capabilities is the Big White Wall—an online 24/7 early intervention service for people suffering from mental distress. It is free for serving personnel veterans and their families, and as of December last year, 2,500 members of the armed forces community were registered. Seventy-five per cent. of members talked about an issue for the first time on the Big White Wall, 80% managed their psychological distress, and 95% reported an improvement in their well-being as a result of using that service.
There is consensus that reservists are more likely than other serving personnel to experience mental health problems as a result of their service, which is thought to be because when they return from tour they return to civilian life, away from the support network that a regiment offers. Academics at the King’s Centre for Military Health Research, in conjunction with others, conducted a five-year study of 500 reservists who worked in Iraq, which showed that they were twice as likely as regular soldiers to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder.
Current drives to recruit 30,000 reservists as part of the Future Reserves 2020 programme mean that we will need further research in that area. A number of Members will have an interest in this issue, because reservists come from across the country and live and work in all our constituencies. The most recent figures Combat Stress could give me showed that it had received 1,558 approaches from veterans from Iraq, 123 of whom were reservists. From Afghanistan it had received 752 approaches, including 55 from reservists. With the discharge of large numbers of serving personnel as a result of cuts, I am concerned that high levels of alcohol misuse within the services may be transferred into their civilian life. Service personnel are not a group that readily seek help, and much remains to do in relation to mental health. Our wider society and its services must be ready for the discharge of large numbers of serving personnel into our communities.
Every hon. Member who speaks today will no doubt be aware of the difficulty of working with general practitioners and of making them aware of the mental health services that are available. One problem is that GPs see few veterans. There is a heavy reliance on individuals to make their GP aware of their military service. In 2011, the Royal College of General Practitioners issued guidance to GPs on how to meet the health care needs of veterans, but the onus is on the GP to be aware of it. According to the last figures I have, only 320 GPs had accessed an e-learning package on help to identify veterans with mental health problems. We need to work to increase that number.
Our police forces need to be helped and supported in understanding how often they will come across veterans. Figures show that they are coming across veterans who are dealing with alcohol problems and having episodes of self-harm, which in military terms means looking for fights in which they will receive physical injuries. Alarmingly, a recent independent commission on mental health and policing showed that the Met police have a particularly poor record of dealing with people in mental distress. A quarter of calls to the Met police each year—600,000 calls—were linked to mental health. We need to tidy up the link between mental health and the police.
Norman Lamb
The hon. Lady makes important points on people in the armed forces and veterans. Is she aware of Lord Adebowale’s valuable work and report on the link between police and mental health, which was published last week? It was commissioned by the police and dealt with how to improve the way in which they operate. It is good news that the police were prepared to commission Lord Adebowale’s report and are prepared to listen to his advice.
Mrs Moon
I am very aware of that research; the point I was about to make comes from it. The problem is that we often use the police as our first line in dealing with people with mental health problems, but they are not trained and equipped to carry out that role and function. We must do something about that. Otherwise, the person with the mental health problems is often dealt with as a disruptive element, and treated as if they are someone violent and aggressive, rather than someone who has a mental health problem. We must deal with that problem.
Words and anecdotes can be dangerous, particularly in the military. Research was published this week by the Defence Analytical Services and Advice agency on Falkland veterans. It found that 95 veterans had taken their own lives since the end of the conflict. That figure is lower than previously assumed, although each death is a tragedy for the individual and family involved. The research showed that, of the 26,000 mobilised, 255 died in conflict and 95 took their own lives, but 455 died of cancer. We sometimes forget that our armed forces community has problems we need to address that are not necessarily mental health problems.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
I agree totally with my hon. Friend that each of those 95 people taking their own lives is an individual and family tragedy. My problem is that, in opposition, the Conservatives, including the Prime Minister, took the figure used prior to the research and quoted it freely, like confetti, to try to discredit what the Labour Government were doing for veterans’ mental health.
Mrs Moon
The repeating of such figures is the dangerous part as it places the perception in people’s minds. More dangerously, it goes into the minds of veterans, who then think, “I have served. I will have a mental health problem and post-traumatic stress disorder,” when the opposite is true. It is incumbent on all hon. Members to ensure that our work and the facts we share come from academically proven research. A study by Lord Ashcroft suggested that 92% of the public believe that all veterans will have a mental health problem, but research suggests that the opposite is true—that 90% do well.
We have had a 15-year report from the King’s Centre for Military Health Research, but we need a 20-year report showing the impact of the draw-down from Afghanistan and the increased numbers of veterans in the community.
In this debate on mental health, words can be dangerous—they can harm and create impressions in vulnerable minds. They can make people believe they have a problem they do not have, or that they have a problem that they can survive and grow from. Military mental health is robust. The transition to civilian life, alcohol misuse and reservists are risks that we must take seriously and tackle. The MOD will need to work more closely with the Department of Health. As people leave the armed forces and become civilians, civilian society organisations need to be equipped and ready to help. As civilians, we face the same problems together.
Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), who made an important speech on the mental health of military veterans who serve this country so bravely in many theatres.
I am in the Chamber because this debate is extraordinarily important. I could spend this Thursday knocking on doors in my constituency and pressing the flesh. If I was lucky, I might meet 100 people, but by being here, I can represent the interests of many thousands of people. That is why the Chamber of the House of Commons is so important. I hope that, this afternoon, I speak up for the interests of many thousands of my constituents who suffer directly from mental health problems and illness, and many thousands in their families who support them.
We have come a long way in the past year. In June 2012, we had a great debate in the Chamber. Many familiar faces who took part in that debate are in the Chamber this afternoon. In a sense, the lid has been lifted. People now feel much more confident speaking not only of their own mental health experiences, but of mental health in general, and the hopes, aspirations, fears and expectations of their constituents.
Although I have been involved in mental health for about seven years as vice-chairman and now chairman of the all-party group on mental health, I have met an enormous number of organisations in the past year. I have written a few of their names down on a piece of paper. I will not read them all out—that would not look too good in Hansard tomorrow—but I will focus on two or three special people I have met.
Daniel Macnamee from Changing Our Lives has suffered from psychosis and has been very unwell for significant periods. He is well at the moment and recognises the signs when he is about to become ill, so the process and his drug therapies can be managed. Daniel is doing extraordinary things. He is an advocate for people with mental health problems and who are ill, including within hospitals—people who have been either detained or who are there of their own volition.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
The hon. Gentleman mentions a constituent who becomes aware before he has a psychotic episode. In that situation, he would want acute and crisis services. Is the hon. Gentleman aware of Mind’s work on that? It recently surveyed all primary care trusts, which are now clinical commissioning groups, and mental health trusts about their acute and crisis care services. Does he agree that we ought to ensure that such services are available to people such as his constituent and my constituents?
Mr Walker
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that information. I have campaigned alongside Mind for many years to ensure that people have such services. We talk about support within the community, but it is variable and people’s experience of it is variable. If we are to get things right when people go into crisis or feel a crisis coming on, they need to be confident that the support they require will be there for them. That is why having a crisis plan is so important: people’s wishes can be respected. We too often talk over the heads of people with mental health problems, unwellness or illness—however we define it. We need to be aware of their wishes, because have an absolute obligation to their welfare and to respect their wishes.
Daniel, from Changing Our Lives, is not a constituent; he is just one of the most inspirational people I have met in the 45 years I have tottered along this mortal coil. He is a wonderful man and I am full of admiration for what he is doing.
A couple of days ago, I met Liz Johnson from UK Changes, who works in Staffordshire to ensure that people with mental health issues can remain and keep a foothold in the workplace. For those who are out of the workplace due to illness, her organisation provides mechanisms to help them get back in. The organisation has some reach and I strongly recommend that the Minister meets its representatives. I know there is a drive to ensure that people who have suffered from mental health problems have the opportunity to re-engage with the labour market. One great sadness is that the chance of being in work for those with a diagnosis of psychosis or schizophrenia is approximately 8%. A 92% unemployment rate is unacceptable.
Dame Anne Begg
Generally, people with mental health issues have been in work—they are not young and may be in middle age—but have fallen out of it. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there needs to be a lot more work done with employers to ensure that an episode of mental ill health does not lead to people being sacked and becoming unemployed? Employers need to be much more sympathetic, helpful and understanding to keep people in the job they already have.
Mr Walker
The hon. Lady makes a fabulous point. Many organisations are doing that at the moment. The Work Foundation launched a report in the House of Commons a couple of months ago, and I was delighted to be able to speak at that event. Some people who had been excluded from the labour market for many years but are now in work spoke at the launch downstairs in the Churchill room. It was moving and uplifting. Good news stories tend to be uplifting and we need to have more of them. There is still a lot of disappointment and sadness in this area, and that is why we have such an obligation in this place to work with all Governments to improve outcomes and ensure we get things right.
Rehman Chishti
Like every other hon. Member here, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work he has done on this issue over many years. Does he agree that the current NHS approaches are too focused on fighting fires, and that more investment in community and preventive care would improve quality and potentially reduce costs, a view shared by an expert from Imperial college?
Mr Walker
I agree with my hon. Friend. We need to ensure that the systems are in place in local communities to provide people with the support they require. Care in the community is a great concept if that care exists. It exists more in some places than in others.
I will not read out all the names on my list, but they show that civil society is alive and well. They are not statutory organisations; they are founded and run by people who wanted to reach out and do something about a problem that was relevant and prevalent in their community. I am full of admiration for them.
Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous. Like other Members, I pay tribute to him for his work on this issue. Before he moves on, I want to touch on the important point about employment. A constituent has written to me to say that employers need to be far more open to the idea of encouraging their employees to talk about these issues and support them in times of need. The loss to companies could be greatly reduced if they were able to support employees through times of mental fatigue and mental illness. Does he agree?
Mr Walker
Absolutely. A lot of good points are being made this afternoon and that is another one. BT and Legal & General are doing a huge amount of work on this. BT does it because it is a decent employer, but also because it wants to hold on to some of its top performers who make a difference to the business. It therefore makes sense to support people and ensure they can stay in work.
We have a fabulous civil society doing wonderful things. The great thing about the area of mental health—it is not all doom gloom; far from it—is the diversity of provision. There are a lot of people out there thinking about different ways of doing things, ways that work for the particular communities they serve. That is to be applauded and promoted. We need to support organisations that provide services that meet the needs of specific groups and their community.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend for lifting the lid off the whole issue of mental health. The more times we talk about it in this Chamber, the more we can break down the stigma. It does not surprise me that he has such a long list of wonderful people and local organisations that are doing great things. I met representatives of the State of Mind campaign, which is running in rugby league. It is not a particularly well paid sport, but the campaign is helping young men who suffer from mental health issues. Will he continue, with me and other Members, to support those organisations and the wonderful people who are breaking down these stigmas?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend makes a fine point. I want to touch, at the end of my speech, on resilience and the terrible tragedy of suicide among young men and women, so I will come back to that.
I remain terribly concerned about psychosis and schizophrenia. I mentioned a few minutes ago that anyone with a diagnosis of psychosis or schizophrenia is likely to be unemployed. If one is not unemployed at the time, one will end up unemployed. Life expectancy, which has already been mentioned today, can be up to 20 years shorter than for someone who does not have that diagnosis. That is not acceptable in a civilised society and should not be tolerated. I have spoken about this before in an Adjournment debate and I want to revisit it because it is so important.
My concern, having talked to people who care for loved ones with schizophrenia—sons, daughters, mothers or fathers—is that sometimes the NHS is more interested in managing the illness than with the overall health needs of the patient. Symptoms are managed down so that patients do not make a nuisance of themselves and take up time, but when one stands back and looks at them, one sees they are desperately unhappy. It does not matter if they are smoking 70 or 80 cigarettes a day, because they are not making a nuisance of themselves. It does not matter if they weigh 20 to 25 stone, because they are not making a nuisance of themselves. It does matter, however, because that patient is slowly killing himself or herself and we have to address that.
I know that the Minister and other colleagues share my concerns, but as a civilised society we just cannot allow this to continue. Yes, progress is being made in the advancement of drug therapies, but not fast enough in mental health. We still have treatments that were breakthroughs in the ’70s and ’80s, but we have not moved on to the 2010s and beyond. The hon. Member for Bridgend rightly said that we have to be very careful about the language we use today and not frighten people. I do not want to frighten people and I hope that she does not think I am, but I get terribly moved when a constituent, who is very ill and being cared for in hospital, writes to me and tells me that once every other week he is held down on the bed and has an eight inch needle injected into his backside. I just think that that must be terribly demeaning, distressing and awful—I am sorry, I am a bit upset about it. We need to get to a place where that does not happen anymore. It will take time, but we need to get there.
Norman Lamb
I pay tribute to the work my hon. Friend does on mental health, and the extent to which he argues the case for a fair share of resources and attention to be given to it. Does he agree that it is important for clinicians, who he was talking about earlier, to listen to loved ones and family members to hear their perspective? Of course there is the issue of confidentiality, but sometimes clinicians hide behind that and are not prepared to listen to those who know the patient best of all.
Mrs Moon
I wanted to follow up on the same issue as the Minister. In preparing for this debate, I received many e-mails from people who had to become experts in the condition in the hope of protecting a family member from exactly the sort of abuse that the hon. Gentleman is talking about. The fear that carers feel when a loved-one comes into contact with the health services, which should be there to protect them and aid them in their passage through their illness, should not exist. That fear should not add to the trauma of their treatment. That is something we have to address.
Gloria De Piero
I wanted to intervene because people were talking about family members. I have a close family member with a severe mental illness. It was a big part of my childhood and early adulthood, and remains a big part of my life to this day. It is so important that we have this conversation. It is not something that people share or talk about because of the stigma that surrounds it. Instead, people internalise it, deal with it and become their own expert, so I would like to thank the Backbench Business Committee for returning to this important issue. It is time to talk and time to change, and I thank the hon. Gentleman, along with Rethink and Mind, for their work in this area.
Mr Walker
I know that the hon. Lady is an expert on these matters. I was going to say in response to the hon. Member for Bridgend that there are experts in this place. I did not want to identify the hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero), but, to her enormous credit, she has identified herself. She is a fantastic representative of her constituents, and it is a delight to have her here today.
We have to make progress on drug therapies. Lord Stevenson of Coddenham, who is known to me and the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) very well, is doing enormously good things in this area. He has established a charity with a significant budget to look into new treatments, pathways and the brain. The charity is called MQ, its chief executive is Cynthia Joyce and I commend its work to the Minister. I would also like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), who cannot speak today because, according to some bizarre convention, Whips cannot speak in the Chamber, which is a great sadness, because I wish she could. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris), who has done much in this area, and of course the hon. Member for North Durham, who has become a great friend over the past year and is a fellow musketeer in these areas.
I said that I would touch on suicide. We need to build mental health resilience in our schools. That should start at a very young age. It is a great tragedy that many young men and girls decide to end their lives in their teens and early 20s. It is a public health issue, and we need to address it.
Jeremy Corbyn
I compliment the hon. Gentleman on his speech and on his work on this subject. I am glad that he has raised the issue of suicide. Like me, he must be shocked by the number of suicides and attempted suicides within our prison service and by the number of prisoners clearly suffering mental health problems but not receiving the care and support they need. Does he agree that we need a much better regime of training and support on mental health issues for all prisoners?
Mr Walker
I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is a great sadness that we shut down and cleared out the asylums only to put too many of those people in our prisons. They go in ill and they come out even more ill and more addicted. It is a disgrace and something we need to address.
I thank colleagues for being here today. I know that the call of their constituencies is hard to resist, but they will be congratulated by their constituents for taking part in this debate. I commend the work of the all-party group on mental health. We have done a lot of work on mental health, schizophrenia and ethnic minority mental health. I see that my hon. Friend for Taunton is here—no, it is not Taunton, but? [Hon. Members: “Totnes.”] Well, it begins with a T for crying out loud. What’s a T among friends? I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) for her great work. I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the Backbench Business Committee for allowing the debate to take place, and I thank the Minister and his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), who was also a fabulous Minister, for giving the matter such attention and focus. They are to be lauded and applauded.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), whom I would call my hon. Friend.
I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee and the sponsors of this debate. Remarkably, this is the second debate on this subject in less than a year. I think we should have one every year in order to raise issues that affect many in the House and many of our constituents. Our last debate was on 14 June 2012, when I spoke about my depression and the hon. Member for Broxbourne spoke about his struggle with mental illness. We were both a little wary about what the reaction would be, but it has been nothing but positive, to the extent that he and I have become the Eric and Ernie of the mental health conference circuit. I leave it to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the House to discern which of us is Eric and which is Ernie. I have received well over 1,000 e-mails and letters, and I think one was negative, but so what? As I said last time, if people did not like me before I spoke last year, they are not going to like me now.
The most remarkable thing for me is that some people I thought I knew well have told me about their own mental illness. I want to pick out three. I will not name any individuals, and I pick them out only to demonstrate that mental illness and depression are equal opportunity conditions. It is not determined by social status, education or what someone does in life. The first was a chief executive of a large council whom I have know for many years. If she was here today, hon. Members would think her a confident and forthright individual, but speaking to her after the debate, I learned that she suffered terribly from post-natal depression.
The second person was the chief officer for a large European defence company. I am sure that some people in the House have met him several times. He is the last person hon. Members might think suffered from mental illness but, as he explained to me, 10 years ago he suffered from a bad bout of depression. The third person, remarkably, is a retired general I know. Others in the House will know him. I will not mention his name, but again he is not someone we might think suffered from mental illness. I pick out those three to demonstrate my point. These are not weak individuals or failures in life, but confident individuals, and had they not told me, I would not have known, and neither would anyone else, apart from their immediate families.
I want to give another example. I was on Chester-le-Street in my constituency one Saturday morning. I was walking down the street and a lady, perhaps in her late 50s, early 60s, came up to me and said, “Mr Jones, can I thank you for what you said on mental illness?” I said, “Thanks very much.” She said, “I’m a recovering alcoholic who had 10 years of depression, but now, with the proper support, I am leading a good, constructive family life.” Normally, if I had walked past her in the street, I would not have thought that this well-dressed, middle-class lady had suffered from mental illness. That reinforced the point that unlike a broken leg, for example, we cannot see mental illness. Every day we pass people in the street or working with people—people we might know very well—who have suffered from mental illness or who has a family member who has suffered from it.
Ian Austin
What my hon. Friend is saying illustrates how important the speeches that he and the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) made were. The key point is that despite the number of sufferers who battle against these problems at some point in their lives, there is still a huge amount of stigma attached to them. That is why debates such as this are so important. On his point about health, it is quite right that the Government and public health organisations do so much on smoking, weight loss and reducing alcohol intake to improve health and well-being, but why does he think so little is said publicly, or by health organisations generally, to raise the problems of mental health?
Mr Jones
That is our great challenge, and not just for the present Government. We did a lot in the last Government to recognise the problem. I pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), who championed IAPT—improving access to psychological therapies—services, for example, but part of the problem is cultural. We do not talk about these issues in this country. I think that is changing—I will come to the stigma in a minute—but for anyone who has suffered from a mental illness or who has a family member who has, there is a sense of shame. There should not be, but there is a sense in which talking about it means that those people are failures, when I would argue the opposite. In many cases it is a sign of strength. With the right support, people can function normally, work perfectly normally and have a perfectly happy and productive family life.
Yasmin Qureshi
I congratulate my hon. Friend on being brave and speaking about his situation—as I congratulate the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) on speaking about his—and on highlighting the issue. There is a stigma attached to it, and we should discuss it more. My hon. Friend said that the lady who approached him said that she was able to recover after she was given support. Does he agree that some mental health treatments are often quite costly? There is a funding issue, so should we not also encourage the Government to ensure proper funding for services across the country for everyone who may have problems?
Mr Jones
We need to explode the myth that the problem is funding. I do not think it is; I think it is where the funding is spent—a point raised earlier. Indeed, funding that is properly spent on early interventions for people with mental health issues will save the NHS money in the long term, not cost it.
Mrs Moon
There is an issue with the interaction of mental health and alcohol. I repeatedly had texts from a dear friend of mine who is a minister in the Church. He had severe depression and was self-medicating with alcohol. His family and the police would repeatedly take him to mental health services, which would turn him away, because they said he had been drinking. He was drinking because he needed their services and could not access them. We have to ensure that mental health services cannot turn away people who have been drinking, but hold them until they are no longer under the influence of alcohol and then ensure that they access the services they need. The link between alcohol and mental health has to be explored and tackled.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Before the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) continues, let me say that interventions are becoming speeches in their own right, when they are supposed to be brief and pertinent to the point that has just been made. If we could return to that, perhaps it would help the flow of the debate.
Mr Jones
It is a statement of fact that people with mental illness will self-medicate, and alcohol is the most easily available drug. I am surprised by what my hon. Friend describes. If services are taking that approach to people, that is wrong. Her point is also linked to the bigger debate about access to alcohol.
Let me return to the issue of stigma, which my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) raised. He quite rightly said that we do not talk about it, but we are making some progress. I thank Mind, Time to Change, Rethink and the Royal College of Psychiatrists for doing a great job of raising the issue and tackling the stigma. We should remember that it is not just the individuals with mental illness who suffer, but family members too. Earlier my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero) mentioned her own family. A lot of families suffer in silence because they think there is no one to turn to. In many cases, they think they have failed in some way or wonder where they can get help. It is not uncommon—I have come across a lot of these cases—for carers to end up suffering from mental illness themselves because of the daily pressures on them.
The hon. Member for Broxbourne raised the issue of schizophrenia. I pay tribute to the Schizophrenia Commission, which reported towards the end of last year. It looked not only at services for schizophrenia, but at the stigma attached to. Again, the popular image in the media is that someone suffering from schizophrenia is potentially the mad axeman or woman next door who will come and kick the door in, when nothing could be further from the truth. When we describe people’s conditions, there is an onus on us all to describe them properly, because there are people suffering from schizophrenia who, with proper treatment and support, can function quite normally.
I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), who introduced the Mental Health (Discrimination) (No. 2) Act 2013—a good use of a private Member’s Bill. Like my friend the hon. Member for Broxbourne, I also pay tribute to Lord Stevenson, not only for championing the Bill through the other place, but for the work he does with his new charity. Did that legislation help in itself? Yes, it did, because it sent a clear signal that we were starting to take discrimination more seriously. Will it change things overnight? No, I do not think it will, but the more we talk about the stigma, the better people can address it.
I have been criticised—we see this occasionally in some newspapers—by people who say, “Well, it’s okay for famous film stars or even MPs to say they’ve suffered from mental illness,” as though it is somehow an easy thing to do, but I can tell Members now that it is not. I would like us to reach a position where people generally are talking about mental illness, so that if people are suffering in a workplace, they can open up to their colleagues. I should point out—not just to people in this Chamber, but to those in the wider audience—that most people who are suffering from a mental illness would be very surprised by the reaction if they told people. However, it is a big step, and I know personally that it is a very difficult one to take.
One of the best examples of that was from a Channel 4 programme that I appeared on after I spoke last year—I pay tribute to Channel 4 for its work to raise awareness of the stigma around mental illness. The programme had the great title of “Mad Confessions” and was presented by a very mad individual called Ruby Wax. By chance, it happened to include one of my constituents, Derek Muir, who suffered from depression. The programme started with him talking about his depression—he had been off work for a number of months and lives in Edmondsley in my constituency. At the end of the programme they got all his colleagues together in a room and he told them. It was the first they had known about it, but the reaction was very positive and supportive. That is the point we need to get to. Sometimes it is a big step for people suffering from mental illness or depression to admit what is seen as a frailty—although it is not. The strength is in opening up and asking for help.
One area that we need to do more work in is getting mental health policies in the workplace right. I pay tribute to BT and Dr Paul Litchfield for their policies, which have buy-in not just at the level of personnel managers, but from the board downwards. They are not only talking about getting people to talk to one another and open up about mental illness, but trying to be supportive of people with mental illness. When I was at a seminar with Paul last year, somebody asked him, “Why has BT done this? Is it just to tick the social responsibility box?” He said no. Indeed, the board was quite clear: the policy makes economic sense for BT. The message we need to get across to more and more employers is: “Why write off people who are valuable to your business, just because they happen to suffer from a mental illness?” BT is to be congratulated, and I certainly congratulate the board and Paul on their work in this area.
John Glen
The hon. Gentleman is making a typically brilliant speech on this subject. Will he also focus on what we could change in regard to education in our schools? For many, laying the foundations of understanding at an earlier stage, prior to the workplace, would be very effective in creating better outcomes and helping all those young people who have to witness mental health problems among adults.
Mr Jones
The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point: schools are important in this regard, and it is important to get young people to talk about the issue. I have a fantastic charity in my constituency called If U Care Share, run by Shirley Smith. It was created following the tragic circumstances in which Shirley’s 19-year-old son hanged himself. Her organisation goes into schools, youth groups and football clubs—Shirley is working with the Football Association and others—to get people talking about their emotions. We need to get more of that kind of work going.
The workplace is important. Although he is not in the Chair at the moment, I want to pay tribute to Mr Speaker, as well as to the House of Commons Commission. Following our last debate on this issue, they earmarked some funding for our own mental health in this place. Dr Ira Madan, the head of the unit across the road that MPs and staff can access, has told me that that was valuable in that it allowed her to assist Members with mental illness, and that there had been an uptake of the services since the money was made available. I would recommend that anyone who wants to go and have a chat with her should do so, as she is a very good and open individual. We must give credit to Mr Speaker and the Commission for that funding, because that was not an easy decision to make, especially as he was getting criticism from certain newspapers for giving special treatment to MPs. It is not special treatment; it is a vital service. Unfortunately, it is still not open to many MPs because of the stigma that surrounds mental illness.
Norman Lamb
I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for the incredible contribution that he has made to this subject over the past year or so. It was encouraging to hear what he said about Mr Speaker’s actions, and I want to alert him to the fact that I am trying to get every Government Department to sign up to Time to Change, so that they can all make the commitment to be an exemplar. If we are talking about what employers in the private sector should do, it seems to me that we should be taking the lead here.
Mr Jones
I have spoken at a few events with the Minister, and I want to thank him for his interest in, and understanding of, this subject. Getting Government Departments signed up to Time to Change would be a very good move, and he should please ask if he requires any assistance from me.
I want to talk about an issue that affects many of our constituents—namely, the work capability test and the ongoing issue with the company Atos. Is work good for people’s mental health? Yes, it is. Should people be in work if they can work? Yes, they should, with the right support. The problem with the work capability test, however, is that it is still not looking at people with mental illness with any sympathy or understanding.
I believe that individuals with long-term mental illnesses should be taken out of the current work stream, and that there should be a dedicated system for dealing with such people. I am not saying that we should write them all off and leave them at home without making any assessment, but we cannot continue with the present ludicrous system in which they are assessed by the same people who assess claimants with bad backs and other injuries. There are assessors with no expertise at all in mental illness. The assessment process is leading to some people’s conditions being made worse, and, in some cases, to people taking their own lives. One of my constituents has taken an overdose because of the trauma of being asked to attend an interview.
Jeremy Corbyn
My hon. Friend is making an excellent point. Does he think it would be better if, instead of calling people with mental health conditions in for an interview, Atos simply sought medical reports on them and then considered setting up an interview with a suitably qualified examiner? Would that not be better than the production line that Atos operates at the moment?
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend makes a good point. The starting point should be the medical history of those individuals. Someone at the Department for Work and Pensions has said that it is not possible to identify such individuals, but that is complete nonsense. The process my hon. Friend has just suggested should be the starting point.
Professor Harrington’s review of the process put forward the idea of mental function champions. The Government spun that idea out a bit, as though it was the big answer to the problem, and I actually fell for it at the beginning, thinking that those people would be the ones who would carry out the assessments. That was not the case, however; they are there to give advice to the Atos assessors. We still have assessors with no mental health qualifications.
Representatives of the charity Mental Health Matters, a good advocacy charity in the north-east, have just met Atos to ask about the champions, and a number of questions have been raised. Atos would not tell them how the champions were recruited, and there is no indication that they need any formal qualifications. I understand that they are given a two-day Atos in-service training course, but they do not interact with any of the royal colleges or other outside bodies. Remarkably, they are also not accountable to the DWP. I put it to the Minister that he needs to tell the DWP that this must be looked at again. The process is not only causing a lot of heartache and difficulty for many of our constituents; it is actually not a good use of public money. People are failing the tests and going to appeal. At least one of my constituents has been affected in that way. They sometimes go through the process and end up in a residential hospital for a month, which must cost more than the amount of benefit that might have been saved.
We also need tailor-made programmes for people with mental illness. We should consider a separate work stream that could include voluntary work, given that many people with mental illness find the transition back into work through voluntary work easier than being thrown straight back in. We also need a pool of employers who understand and are sympathetic towards people with mental illness. There is an idea that such people can just join the normal job market and that employers will just accept that they might not turn up for work for a day or a week because they are not feeling well, but that is not the case. Those people will not keep their jobs for very long.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
I was at a recent meeting of the Mind support group in Scunthorpe, and I was concerned to hear people saying that they were anxious about taking on voluntary work because of the impact it could have on their benefits and their access to other services. Does my hon. Friend think that that issue needs to be looked at?
Mr Jones
Yes, it does. If there were a separate work stream for those individuals, of which the voluntary sector was a part, we could use the voluntary sector to get people back into the world of work. I agree with my hon. Friend, however, that they should not be penalised for doing so through loss of benefits.
I also want to talk about the old issue of the NHS reorganisation. It provides some great opportunities for doing things differently, and there should be an opportunity for local providers to bring in the third sector. I have one problem with that, however. I am president of the local Mind, which has just received a contract to provide certain services, and the process it has to go through is very difficult. I am not suggesting for a minute that such organisations should not be performance managed, because there are some large contracts involved, but we need an easier system for applying for the contracts. We also need to ensure that when bodies are competing for the contracts, people can access the services.
Another area of concern is the increased waiting lists for IAPT services. I know that the world has changed since 1 April, and people who lobby on behalf of mental health services are going to have to change their lobbying tactics. It is important to ensure that commissioning groups have an understanding of mental illness and of the importance of IAPT services.
If we look at the Royal College’s report, we find that people are going through the system saying they are quite happy when they get a diagnosis, but are then told they might have to wait up to a year for a talking therapy—that is just no good. What we need—again, this will save the NHS and the economy money—is a quick service such as the IAPT service. I know from people in my own constituency and others who have written to me that the wait is totally unacceptable. If we want to make this work, we have to make sure we have a joined-up service and that people who want a diagnosis get the support they need quickly. Otherwise, people will be stuck in this no man’s land between diagnosis and treatment.
Another area on which the new organisation needs to focus is local government. Local government now has an important role in health care through health education and protection. The Royal College of Psychiatrists is working with councils on a project to have champions at the local level. It is important for local councils to have councillors or chief officers who can champion the need for mental health services locally.
I welcome the debate. It is important to talk about these subjects, and the more we do, the better. To adopt an old BT phrase, “We need to talk”. If we talk about it—whether it be in schools, the workplace or here—we will erase the stigma of mental illness. That has to be the goal: mental illness being treated just like any other long-term condition. People should not be afraid of admitting to it and should not feel that they cannot be helped. We also need to recognise that in many cases—including, I have to say, my own—it can be strength rather than a weakness.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
I add to those of other Members my congratulations to the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) on securing this debate, and indeed to the Backbench Business Committee on having agreed the time for it.
I fear I shall stray into what some Members might regard as rather a niche area of mental illness. Some will recall that I led a Westminster Hall debate several months ago on the topic of eating disorders, raising the connection between eating disorders of whatever type and other mental illnesses.
One of the sadnesses I encountered in the run-up to that debate was the trivialisation of eating disorders even by some fellow Members, who made the point that they were not serious conditions but just the afflictions of silly teenage girls who needed to get a grip on their eating patterns. Far from it: in fact, eating disorders are one of the most prevalent mental illnesses. There are thought to be some 1.6 million sufferers in the UK. Anorexia nervosa is the most lethal mental illness: 20% of sufferers eventually die from it and a further 20% never recover.
It is important to recognise that the symptoms of a wide variety of mental illnesses such as low self-esteem, physical abuse and alienation from peers are common traits in a wide range of mental health problems, and are often particularly manifested in eating disorders. As I have said previously, the route map to an eating disorder is not identical for everybody, but similar traits and commons themes can be found. The same route map and traits can be found in schizophrenia and serious personality disorders such as bipolar disorder, for example.
I want to pick up and draw on as a point of contrast the issue of borderline personality disorder. I want to make the point, hopefully as succinctly as I can, that eating disorders are not the poor relation of more serious personality disorders and mental health problems; they are a serious condition of the psyche that should command far greater public awareness and, indeed, greater public spending.
To demonstrate the significant threat posed by eating disorders, one need only make a comparison with a more well-known and recognised mental health problem such as borderline personality disorder. BPD has a higher incidence of occurrence than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and is thought to be present in about 2% of the general population. It has a phenomenally high rate of suicide and self-harm: 10% of BPD sufferers eventually commit suicide. Those mortality rates are augmented by disorder-related deaths from drug or drink abuse. One of the most well-known cases of undiagnosed BPD was that of the singer Amy Winehouse, who eventually died from alcohol poisoning.
However, anorexia nervosa—like BPD, it is thought to affect roughly 2% of the population—has a 20% mortality rate, which is nearly twice that for BPD. Yet awareness of this shocking statistic is not high; people simply do not know about it. That could be because, unlike BPD, those deaths do not predominantly come from suicide—although that is not uncommon—but happen many years later after the physical effects of anorexia have taken their toll. Many of the deaths occur from multiple organ failure or heart attacks, in addition to the straightforward and more well-known effects of the sufferer having too low a body weight for them to survive.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on the persistence with which she has raised this issue and the trenchant way she argues her case. She will be aware that one of my concerns is type 1 diabetics who, by manipulating their insulin intake, can achieve rapid weight loss, which is in itself a form of eating disorder. Does she agree that the major problem confronting these people is falling between two stools? On the one hand they get physical treatment for the physical consequences of their rapid weight loss—organ damage and so forth—while on the other they have difficulty getting access to proper psychological or psychiatric services. Does she agree that the two need to be more integrated?
Caroline Nokes
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that timely intervention. That is one of the key problems. Far too often in eating disorders, the treatment is focused on body-mass index and ensuring that the sufferers are physically well, but without necessarily addressing the underlying cause through therapies and treatments that deal with what triggered the condition. The right hon. Gentleman’s example of diabetics who manipulate their insulin intake is a particularly stark one. Anyone who has done work with diabetics knows that incorrect levels of insulin can lead to horrendous physical complications. Across the whole spectrum of eating disorders, there is far too much focus on physical and too little on mental well-being.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry)
I would not normally intervene, but will my hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) for the great work he has done to raise with me and my Department this often unheard of, certainly unrecognised and very serious problem of type 1 diabetics with eating disorders? In considering how to tackle it, it is indeed important that we look at the mental conditions and problems my hon. Friend has identified.
Caroline Nokes
I certainly join the Minister in paying that tribute. I am delighted to hear her make the point that we must start addressing the underlying mental health conditions, when in too many cases the physical treatments are the sole emphasis.
I want to touch briefly on the significant impact eating disorders can have on future career opportunities and in the workplace. As I said earlier, eating disorders are often trivialised and generalised as being conditions affecting teenage girls. That is far from the truth, as the highest rate of increase is among male sufferers. In addition, many eating disorder sufferers are managing their conditions over many years or even decades. I am the first to emphasise that sufferers can be of any age and of either gender, although I acknowledge that the age at which an eating disorder is most likely to manifest itself is 17, and that it is most likely to do so in girls. It often occurs in academically high-achieving individuals who put themselves under immense pressure to be absolutely perfect in every way they can. That frequently manifests itself in a control of food intake. Those determined to put themselves under significant academic pressure also put themselves under massive physical pressure and wish to conform to a body ideal that is actually far from healthy.
I want to pay tribute to the work of April House in Southampton—a specialist unit that focuses on eating disorders in the city. I paid a very enlightening visit to the centre just over 12 months ago and met a number of sufferers, several of whom came from my constituency. Although April House serves the wider Southampton area, three of them were Romsey residents. They have kept in touch with me since my visit, and have emphasised that they have not only benefited from the work done at April House, but have undertaken other therapies.
I am very aware of the work of an organisation in Southampton called tastelife, which was set up by the families of people suffering from eating disorders. The aim was to move the focus away from the physical, and, through self-help groups, to encourage sufferers to talk about their issues, work through them with other people and concentrate on not just physical but mental wellness.
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), who drew attention to the stigma experienced not only by those who suffer from mental health problems, but by their families. Before the Westminster Hall debate, I was contacted by many parents, husbands and, indeed, wives of people with eating disorders, who told me that not just their relatives but they themselves suffered that stigma. A number of them believed that they must be in some way to blame for the fact that their relative, perhaps their child, suffered from an eating disorder. Many were suffering from massive levels of guilt and introspection because they felt they must have somehow caused it.
I have tried to emphasise during discussions of this topic that it is not possible to identify a single trigger, and that a parent cannot do anything to prevent the descent of a child into a form of mental illness, but what that parent can do is help. I was pleased to hear various Members stress the importance of having a parent or other relative as an advocate. In the case of eating disorders, it is almost inevitably the parent who will know the young sufferer best. I think it very important that we be prepared to talk openly about the subject and to move away from the stigma.
Many of those who attended the Westminster Hall debate will remember my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) talking about a pea. He described how he had suffered at school from anorexia nervosa, and had decided to address his condition by seeking to tackle it one step at a time. The first step involved a single green pea on a plate, which he pushed around endlessly, trying to summon up the ability to eat it. His was a moving and interesting account, which gave those of us who had by then been debating the issue for some hours something on which we could really focus: that vision of a plain white plate with a single green pea on it.
Unfortunately the Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), is no longer in the Chamber. I am sure the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), will do an admirable job in responding to the debate, but the point I am about to raise is one that I raised with the Minister of State after it was raised with me by an organisation called Anorexia and Bulimia Care.
Once a young person suffering from an eating disorder has turned 16, they can choose to accept or refuse treatment and their parents no longer have a say. In order for them to be force-fed, they must be sectioned. That brings me back to what I said earlier about teenagers who are in the middle of academic exams and approaching A-levels. Being sectioned could have a significant impact on their future career choices.
I am not necessarily suggesting that we should insist that the parents must be in charge until a child reaches the age of 18. The Children’s Minister explained to me carefully and clearly about previous rulings in this place and in the courts which have granted people Gillick competence at an earlier age. I am not saying we should insist that that right be taken away from eating disorder sufferers. I think it important for us to work with health care professionals, and with mental health experts in particular, to find a solution to what I regard as a very knotty problem.
Among the sufferers to whom I have spoken during various meetings at April House and elsewhere, one sticks especially keenly in my mind. She was a lady my own age, and, although she was not one of my constituents, she came from Hampshire. She had suffered from anorexia for decades, and was incredibly frail. When I mentioned April House she shuddered visibly, because she regarded it as a place where she had been effectively force-fed. She had not come through the treatment successfully; here she was, 20 years on, still suffering from anorexia nervosa.
I always find myself—with good reason, I believe—on the side of the sufferer or the patient, and I am therefore not suggesting to the Minister that when it comes to the debate about whether parents should have the right to insist on force-feeding young people until they reach the age of 18, we should enter the fray. I recognise it is a very difficult area. However, I want to leave that thought with the Minister. I have raised the issue with her colleague the Minister of State, and no doubt I will raise it again over the coming months and years.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Like all the other Members who have spoken, I welcome the debate. It is important for us to have it, and I hope that it will become an annual event. It is a way of reducing the stigma that is attached to mental illness, increasing understanding of it, and also, quite correctly, holding the Government to account on how their policies develop.
There is still an enormous amount of discrimination against people who have suffered from some kind of mental illness or breakdown, or have spent time in a long-stay institution. Like all discrimination, it is incredibly wasteful of resources, because it means that those people cannot contribute to society in the way that we want, and as a result we all lose out.
I want to raise two points. The first relates to local experiences, and the second to national policies. My borough has an image as being relatively wealthy and high-achieving, and there are certainly some wealthy and high-achieving people in it. Islington council, however, undertook an interesting exercise: it set up a fairness commission to examine the quality of the delivery of public services to everyone in the borough, with the aim of ensuring that the purpose of the council’s policies, including health policies, was to reduce inequality.
According to a briefing that the council gave me before the debate, it is estimated that in my borough
“30,000 adults experience depression or anxiety disorders in any one week…. Mental ill health among 5 to 17 year olds is estimated to be 36% higher…than the national average”.
The briefing states that more than one in eight children are
“experiencing mental health problems at any one time.”
It also states:
“The suicide rate is… 8 per 100,000…second highest in London”,
and broadly
“similar to the national average”.
Physical ill health is often related to mental health problems. According to the briefing,
“Poor mental health was found in 43% of all Islington patients who died of cardiovascular disease before the age of 75. As people live longer, there are an increasing number of people with dementia, although Islington has a relatively smaller number of older people”—
only 9% of the population. Islington has a 70%—higher than average—rate of diagnosis of dementia. Increasingly, as others have pointed out, people who care for adults with mental health problems are much older people who find it extremely difficult to cope. Those carers need more support, so that they are better able to look after people who are becoming more and more dependent.
Both my local council, in its study, and the Mental Health Trust draw attention to the enormous over-representation of people from black and minority ethnic communities in the context of diagnosis and, in particular, the context of long-stay institutions. We should ask whether there is, in fact, a higher level of prevalence, or whether there is a perception that it is somehow OK to put black and minority ethnic people into long-stay institutions, whereas it would not be OK in the case of other people.
Indeed, I urge Members to visit long-stay institutions and talk to people resident in them. I get the impression some of them have had very difficult lives and very little support, and that they have led very isolated existences. I also get the impression that many of them have very few friends and very little representation, and whereas those who come from a fairly stable family background with a series of understanding relatives are able to get representation and often win their cases where there has been a section order, others do not get the same quality of representation and consequently do not win any tribunal cases.
In an earlier speech, I made an intervention about the role of the voluntary sector in dealing with mental health conditions. As I have pointed out, my borough has considerable problems in dealing with mental health, but we have a number of very good local organisations that often deal with mental health issues in an innovative and supportive way, and are often very successful. Nafsiyat, an intercultural therapy centre based in Finsbury Park which was founded by the late Jafar Kareem, was groundbreaking in its ideas of looking at the cultural background and ensuring culturally appropriate treatment of people with mental illness, for example by making sure there are people who speak the necessary languages and understand something of the specific cultural background. The Maya Centre, which particularly relates to women, does much of the same work, as does ICAP or Immigrant Counselling and Psychotherapy, a counselling and psychotherapy centre originally founded by people in the Irish community that now deals with a much wider community.
We also have a considerable refugee population. A very good group called Room to Heal deals with people who have achieved asylum status in this country. They have often been through the most dreadful experiences of torture, which are frequently dealt with in a community way. People meet regularly and do things together, such as gardening and taking trips. Many of them improve a great deal and get through the terrible traumas they have suffered. I find it very interesting talking to people from different countries all around the world who have all experienced torture in one form or another and who have benefited from these activities. We also have the Refugee Therapy Centre and the Women’s Therapy Centre, which also provide therapy on a culturally sensitive basis. Finally, we have the Holloway Neighbourhood Group stress project.
These are all valuable groups, and they all depend on contracts obtained either from the local health authority or neighbouring health authorities. All of them spend a great deal of time filling in forms in order to gain what are often relatively small sums of money for relatively short-term contracts. Health authorities must value these organisations and look to use them. We should give out the message that we recognise that the voluntary sector has a very important complementary role to play in supporting statutory services in the treatment of mental illness. I do not see them as competitors or rivals; I see them as complementary.
Mr Kevan Jones
I agree with what my hon. Friend says about the smaller contracts these organisations get and the bureaucracy they have to deal with. Does he agree that some of them could bid for larger contracts to provide services as well, but the bureaucracy and financial hurdles involved in bids for such contracts make it very difficult for them to do so?
Jeremy Corbyn
I agree. The bureaucracy involved and the skewing of the contract culture frequently means voluntary organisations that have a tradition of the voluntary provision of services—often in an effective and innovative way, as I have described—are debarred by the contracting process. Instead, very large private sector medical companies come in to privatise those services and run them in a profit-related way, rather than the voluntary sector, which is motivated not by profit, but by the care of the individuals. I urge Ministers to look very carefully at how services are contracted out to the private sector, which is motivated by profit, as opposed to voluntary sector organisations, which often have a very good record in looking after people who need help and support.
We must also recognise that if we are to deal with mental illness problems in any community, there must be a level of understanding that goes wider than just what GPs, hospital doctors and the statutory services do. There is the question of signposting. I pay tribute to local organisations—voluntary groups, churches, mosques —that understand the situation and help signpost people into getting help and support, because many people in our society with some degree of mental illness get no support whatever. This debate may well help us to understand that that is needed.
We must also recognise that there is a cost involved. The cost to health budgets of dealing with mental health is very high. Unfortunately, the policy of community care for the mentally ill has often resulted in lack of care, and in deep isolation and serious problems for the individuals concerned.
I recall a debate in the House in 1986. The Select Committee on Health was looking in an interesting and critical way at the closing down of large asylums and long-stay institutions, such as Friern Barnet and Napsbury, that existed all around London, and, indeed, all around the country. The Committee warned that community care should not be seen as a cheap option, saying it should instead be seen as an opportunity, but as one requiring comprehensive support, support workers and care.
I am sure all MPs have talked at their surgeries with neighbours of those with mental health problems who have come to complain about noise and inappropriate behaviour. Many of them say to me they are sympathetic to the plight of the individual, and recognise there is a lack of support. We should not see community care as the cheap option. It is an option that can be followed, but a great deal of support is also required to carry it through.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend also agree that under the new NHS structure, local councils will have to do a lot more in terms of understanding the needs of people with mental health conditions?
Jeremy Corbyn
Absolutely, which is why I referred in my opening remarks to the strategy adopted by my local authority. It has taken the issue very seriously, and has developed a strategy that involves signposting, understanding, support for care in the community and a close relationship with the mental health trust locally. I suspect many local authorities are not particularly well geared up for that role, and they need to address that quickly.
We must recognise that children and young people suffer a great deal of diagnosable mental health conditions. The Mental Health Foundation estimates that one in 10 children suffer from them. One in six young adults aged between 16 and 24 are also suffering from them at any one time. It is very hard for young adults and teenagers to admit they have mental health problems. It is very difficult for them to go to a GP and say they have a mental health problem. Peer group rivalry and peer group abuse—abuse in schools and colleges—is nasty, dangerous, damaging and very hurtful, and can ultimately lead to suicide. The old saying “Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names cannot hurt me” is wrong. Names do hurt. Name calling does hurt. It can lead to young people becoming isolated, and in extreme situations it can lead to suicide.
Mike Crockart
The all-party group on social mobility has looked at that issue, and we found that one of the major things holding children back from realising their full potential was not necessarily access to the right type of education—further education or higher education—or to funding for such education. Instead, it is their having the social and emotional resilience to be able to bounce back from such problems and take their careers forward.
Jeremy Corbyn
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right in what he says. Bouncing back from these things and then getting on in education or any career is very important. I hope that debates such as this one and the remarks made by hon. Members who have been through mental health problems and depression begin to help give a greater understanding in the much wider community.
I wish to make only a couple more points, because I know that other colleagues wish to contribute to this debate. I intervened earlier about the number of suicides that take place in prisons and the number of people in our prisons who are suffering mental illness. Although such people may be there on the basis of a crime, they need mental health support rather than incarceration in a prison. Today’s edition of The Guardian contains a helpful reproduction of a map of suicides in British prisons. Although the number of suicides has reduced, 833 prisoners committed suicide in the decade up to 2011. When a prisoner commits suicide it is traumatic for the prison and for the prison officers concerned, and devastating for the rest of the prison population. We need to look much more seriously at how our prisons operate, the training that is given to prison officers and the mental health issues that need to be assessed much more carefully by the courts and by the prison services. We also need to examine whether it is really necessary or appropriate to put someone who has a mental health condition into a prison, at any level of security, knowing that there is a real danger of their committing suicide. They are not going to become less better because of this approach; they are probably going to get considerably worse.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) made an important point about people’s availability for work interviews undertaken by Atos on behalf of the Department for Work and Pensions. I am sure that every hon. Member has had people come to their constituency surgery who have been through the misery of an Atos interview when they are suffering from a mental health condition. Whether on a good day or a bad day, nearly all of them get assessed as being capable of work. They therefore start losing benefits and then go through an appeal. Usually, these people eventually win the appeal, but the trauma caused during that process has led to suicides, to deep depression and to deep fear among them.
When I intervened on my hon. Friend, I suggested that instead of automatically calling those with mental health conditions in for an interview, just as every other person with a disability is called in, medical records should be looked at first and a much more sympathetic and appropriate way forward should be taken. Where someone is able to work and an employer is able to take them on, as there is a job, that is clearly good—we want and welcome that—but we should not force them into it. We should not force people to try to hide mental health conditions. Instead, we should be supportive and sympathetic towards them. I hope that the message we can send from the debate is that that is the direction in which we want to go.
This is a valuable and timely debate on an issue that can affect any of us at any time. We all know people who are affected by mental health conditions and as a society we should stop the name calling, stop the abuse and start understanding this as a condition that we can all suffer from and that we can also, generally speaking, always get over.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), who made some powerful points. Perhaps I might add to what he said about the appalling difference in respect of the use of compulsory detention under the Mental Health Act 1983 for those from black and ethnic minorities. We heard in evidence that the fear of this among some communities is acting as a deterrent to seeking early help. We must address that, making sure that people do have that access and that that fear is removed from communities in order to improve health for everybody.
I wish to begin by stating for the record that I am married to a consultant NHS psychiatrist who is also chair of the Westminster liaison committee for the Royal College of Psychiatrists, which provides impartial advice to all political parties on psychiatry. He is also now a clinical director of NHS England’s mental health and dementia network in the south-west.
The corresponding debate last year focused importantly on the issue of stigma in mental health, and I congratulate the ongoing work of Time to Change in reducing stigma. The other issue that was raised, which many Members have focused on today, was parity of esteem. It is wonderful that that important principle is established within the Health and Social Care Act 2012, but we now need to ensure that that translates into action and practice on the ground. As we have heard, 23% of the overall disease burden lies in mental health, but we all recognise from stories that we hear in our constituency surgeries, and from clear evidence, that that does not translate into either funding or our constituents’ experiences of services. How are we going to see that translated into action? We need to look at the evidence of what works and to focus on the outcomes.
We know that 30% to 65% of hospital in-patients have a mental health condition and that mental health and physical health are inextricably linked. Not only is someone more likely to suffer from a mental illness if they have a chronic long-term condition, but someone who has a mental illness will find that there is an impact on their physical health. We have heard again about the scandal that the life expectancy of people with a serious mental illness will be shortened by between 20 and 25 years.
Anna Soubry
My hon. Friend is picking up on the point made by the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) about there being a real link between public health issues such as smoking and alcohol, and mental health issues. Does my hon. Friend agree that we can do great work in this area at a local level, especially under the new arrangements whereby public health is devolved back down to local authorities, where it used to be and always should have been?
Dr Wollaston
I am grateful to the Minister for that intervention. There has been a consistent tendency to ignore physical health problems in those who have severe mental health illness. She is right to say that putting in primary prevention work locally is important, but the Government could perhaps do more on primary prevention, through having a relentless focus. I am grateful to her for the personal support she has given to addressing issues such as alcohol pricing and the availability of ultra-cheap alcohol. Such issues are very important, and the Government need to deal with them to support the work that is being done. Minimum pricing is, of course, not a magic bullet, but unless we address the issue of ultra-cheap alcohol all the other measures that public health directors wish to take within local communities risk being undermined.
Anna Soubry
Does my hon. Friend agree that we can do great work on the minimum pricing of alcohol at local level? I urge her to examine the work being done in Newcastle and, in particular, in Ipswich, where all the agencies are coming together. We have seen supermarkets and many off licences agreeing not to sell cheap beer and lager. Does she agree that such an approach has the potential to be a better way—I think it is one—of dealing with this issue than minimum unit pricing?
Dr Wollaston
Although I absolutely agree that those projects in Newcastle and Ipswich are impressive, there will, unfortunately, always be ways in which they can be undermined. In my area we can find an example of maximum alcohol pricing, whereby white cider is being sold at a maximum price of 23p a unit, and that is destroying areas. There will always be a way for people to get around a minimum pricing level and, although we can see real benefits from these projects, particularly for street drinkers in isolated pockets, I feel overall that minimum pricing would be a good way of addressing this issue on a wider level. But I will not focus on that today.
I want to draw attention to the evidence on providing integrated services. Mental health and physical health services should be much better integrated. Is the Minister aware of the recent report by the Centre for Mental Health and the London School of Economics, which evaluated the use in Birmingham city hospital of the RAID service—the rapid assessment interface and discharge psychiatric liaison service? Is the Minister aware of the role that liaison psychiatry plays? Such services are greatly appreciated by patients and provide an excellent way for them to receive services; moreover, they are incredibly cost-effective. By providing rapid access to a professional service, not only for in-patients but for people who attend accident and emergency services and those who are seen by the poisons unit, it reduces re-admission rates, provides better care and far better outcomes, and saves money. The pressure on A and E services has been much in the news in recent weeks. Liaison psychiatry reduces re-attendance at minor injury units and A and E departments, so such services are vital. It would be really helpful to know whether the Minister is aware of the evidence base and will be promoting liaison psychiatry services.
I want to talk about social exclusion and the role of mental health services in social exclusion. If a person is homeless, they are far more likely to suffer from mental health problems. Equally, if a person has mental health problems, they are very much more likely to end up homeless and on the streets. In my area of Totnes, we tragically have suffered some deaths among our homeless population. We know from those who provide help to the homeless in south Devon the level of dual diagnosis—the number of people who have both mental illness and, for example, addiction problems. I would very much like to hear from the Minister in her summing up what work will be done to improve access to dual diagnosis. I pay tribute to Mark Hatch and the work that he has been doing, alongside very many dedicated volunteers, with the Revival Life Ministries and with Shekinah, providing an outstanding service to our local community.
I want to raise a point about access to GP services for the socially excluded and homeless. In coming months, there will be much focus on how we reduce health tourism. If, in reducing health tourism, we require people to bring a passport to their GP in order to be registered, very many people who are socially excluded will not be registered because they simply do not have access to identification. I ask the Minister, in addressing an important problem of great concern, to be particularly careful to avoid making it even harder for the socially excluded to obtain help with their problems. That would be a real avoidable tragedy.
Prior to the debate, a constituent wrote to me most movingly about the Cinderella service around autism, and lack of access to mental health services for those who suffer from autism, which has a knock-on effect on their carers. Listening to accounts from parents, who have been struggling for so long to obtain the help that their children need, and their description of what happens as their children move into adult services, it becomes clear that that is an area where services genuinely need to be improved. I look forward to hearing from the Minister what more can be done.
Finally, I return to the Health Committee’s review of the Mental Health Act. Would the Minister look at the evidence on the variation in the use of community treatment orders around the country, and tackle that variation? It cannot be right that in some parts of the country they are not used at all, while in others they are heavily used. The evidence base on their effectiveness is very poor. Should the Government lead on that, or should the royal colleges take a lead, so that we have a system that is transparent and used equally around the country?
Mr Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow many moving and thought-provoking contributions. I want to raise the case of Olaseni Lewis, known to his family as Seni, who died after his family left him in the care of the mental health service. Seni was a 23-year-old young black man living in Croydon North, the constituency that I now represent. He had a degree in IT and plans for further postgraduate study.
Seni had no history of mental or physical illness when, on 31 August 2010, he started to behave in an uncharacteristically odd and agitated manner. His parents did what they thought was the right thing by taking him to hospital. He was admitted as a voluntary patient for a few days’ assessment and care. His family left him, when visiting hours ended at 8 pm, with reassurances that they would be contacted if anything happened.
Seni became agitated in his family’s absence, and even more so after he was told that he could not leave the hospital even though he understood he was there voluntarily. It appears he was sectioned in order to detain him against his will, and was then restrained and held face down on the floor by several members of staff and by police officers who had been called after he kicked a door, although there is no evidence that he was violent towards anyone.
Seni was held face down in a seclusion unit by up to 11 police officers for a total of 40 minutes in a way that appears to contravene international conventions on human rights and torture. During the course of that restraint, Seni slipped into a coma and was eventually put on a life support machine, which is how his family found him when they were eventually called four hours after they had left him. He was pronounced dead four days later.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission is responsible for investigating the events leading to Seni’s death. Its investigation began in September 2010. Instead of conducting its investigation under criminal proceedings and interviewing the police officers under caution, it chose instead to accept written accounts which were never challenged. It now accepts that that was a serious mistake.
In August 2011 the IPCC referred the matter and its report to the Crown Prosecution Service to decide whether to prosecute, with a recommendation against. In the meantime, the IPCC had received new information that led it to believe that a criminal prosecution should in fact be pursued. That new information, received in July 2012, was the pathologist’s report, which raised fresh concerns about the extent of restraint used against Seni Lewis. Frustratingly, the CPS refused to accept that new evidence because it was not included in the IPCC’s original report—even though it was the IPCC that wished to amend its own submission. The IPCC claims it has repeatedly raised that point with the CPS, but to no avail. The CPS refused to prosecute.
The IPCC, eager to put right its own admitted mistakes, tried to persuade the Metropolitan police to reopen its investigation in order to trigger a fresh investigation by the IPCC. Following legal advice, the IPPC believed that that would allow it to interview the police officers under caution and include the pathologist’s findings in a new report to the CPS. The Met, unfortunately, had contradictory legal advice telling it that the IPCC could not overturn its own original report and refused to open a fresh investigation. The IPCC is now accusing the Metropolitan police of blocking the investigation that the IPPC wants to reopen.
So we reach a highly unsatisfactory impasse. The police will not reopen the investigation, the CPS will not accept the fresh and potentially compelling evidence, and the IPCC is not allowed to overturn its own decision not to investigate under criminal proceedings even though it believes that the original decision was wrong. In the meantime, a bereaved family have been waiting, with astonishing patience and great dignity, for over two years and eight months for an answer to how and why their beloved son now lies dead after they placed him in the care of a hospital when he showed early signs of mental ill health.
The questions that this case raises are profound and frightening. The organisation Black Mental Health UK is concerned that black people are 44% more likely to be subject to detention under the Mental Health Act than their white counterparts, even though there is no higher prevalence of mental illness among the black community. Once in the system, black people are more likely to be labelled psychotic than their white counterparts for exhibiting exactly the same behaviour. They are also more likely to be given a diagnosis of schizophrenia and to be considered an immediate threat than non-black people. This group is 29% more likely to be subject to restraint and 49% more likely to be placed in seclusion. Black Mental Health UK believes this may be the result of prejudicial assumptions made about young black men in general, and in particular those labelled as suffering from mental ill health.
If black people are being treated differently from other people in a way that threatens their well-being, the community needs reassurance that the mental health service is not institutionally racist. We need a public inquest to establish exactly what happened to Seni Lewis in the four hours after he was first taken by his parents to A and E in Croydon. To date the Lewis family have been failed by the mental health service and the entire criminal justice system. Instead of the open inquiry this case deserves, we are treated to the unseemly spectacle of the IPCC, the CPS and the Metropolitan police fighting with each other and unable or unwilling to work together in the public interest to allow an effective investigation to take place.
I have raised the case of the Lewis family with Ministers over recent months but I am dissatisfied with their responses. When I asked when an investigation would be progressed, I was told this was an operational matter, but this case points to a wider systemic failing that requires Ministers to act and address it. When I asked the Home Secretary what advice was given to the police over how to operate in a mental health setting, I was told none. When I asked what discussions had taken place between the Home Secretary and the Health Secretary about the use of the police in mental health settings, I was told none. When I asked the Health Minister how many patients were restrained in a mental health setting and what their ethnicity was, I was told that the Department of Health does not collect these data. I do not wish to impugn the intentions of Ministers, but I have concluded that they are failing to give this matter the priority it deserves.
Norman Lamb
I apologise that I came in halfway through the hon. Gentleman’s contribution, but he is making extremely serious points. I would be happy to talk further to him about the case after the debate.
Jeremy Corbyn
I compliment my friend on an excellent speech. Does he agree that the problem of representation of people both in initial assessments and when they are placed in long-stay mental health institutions often means that many poorer young black men never get any representation whatever and end up being completely institutionalised as a result, leading to those ludicrously higher statistics for black and ethnic minority people, who are no more prone to mental health problems than anyone else in society?
Mr Reed
I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. There are a range of concerns about the treatment of black people in the mental health system that need to be tackled to reassure that community.
I believe other Members in the House will agree that this cannot be allowed to go on. I urge Ministers to use their offices to persuade the IPCC, the CPS and the Metropolitan police to work together to obtain a quashing order against the IPCC’s original decision so that a criminal investigation into the Seni Lewis case can go ahead, followed by a full public inquest. Instead of apparently washing their hands of the concerns that this matter raises, Ministers should acknowledge the need for a national strategy on policing within mental health settings.
The organisation Inquest points out that it is an unacceptable anomaly that there is no independent body charged with investigating deaths in the mental health service, as there is for deaths in police custody. As a result of that anomaly, reviews are conducted internally, they may not involve the family affected, and there is no collation or joining up of learning across the service nationally. After this case and other cases like it, the community deserves the reassurance of an independent inquiry into the treatment of black people in the mental health service.
Two years and eight months after their son’s death, the Lewis family still do not know how or why he died. The public hearings scheduled for July 2012 and then March 2013 were both delayed without explanation. Seni Lewis deserves justice. The Lewis family deserve justice and they must not be kept waiting any longer.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) and other Members from across the House who have given powerful speeches today. I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on granting this debate and colleagues across the House on requesting it, particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow).
This is an important debate because mental health is one of the last taboos in this country. There is still stigma, and that stigma has a devastating impact. The impact is on those who suffer, who can feel isolated and alone, who can face discrimination, who may be reluctant to seek help or the treatment they need and who worry that even suggesting there may be an issue will lead to pressure on families and challenges to careers. So tackling this taboo, removing this stigma, is important, and a way to do that is by encouraging openness, showing that is not just okay to talk about mental health, but right and important to do so. That is why debates such as these are so important.
The last debate we had here on the issue was one of the best I have heard since I started here. Members spoke powerfully and personally, and showed great leadership, particularly the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker). Talking about the issue here, in our national debating chamber, helps to change attitudes. It helps those who suffers by demonstrating recognition of their challenges, and it places mental health firmly on the health policy agenda and also on our national agenda.
I have long been concerned that mental health care is a bit of a Cinderella service within our NHS, and that is why I have chosen to speak up about it more than any other health issue locally. Service users are often very vulnerable members of our community and are less able to speak up for themselves. Some of the most challenging, complex and moving pieces of casework I have had to tackle have all involved mental health issues.
Today I shall speak about two areas—dementia care and safe havens. Yesterday I attended the Alzheimer’s Society event in Portcullis House to launch dementia awareness week. Tomorrow I am opening a new care home for dementia patients in Starbeck in my constituency. We all know that dementia is an enormous problem. Every Member will deal with it in their constituency and every family will have to face it at some stage. There are an estimated 800,000 people in the United Kingdom who suffer from Alzheimer’s. In North Yorkshire we have the highest proportion of people aged 85 and over in the north, and we know that one in three people in that age category suffer from some form of cognitive impairment. That is more than 3,000 people in the Harrogate district, but we have a diagnosis rate of only 40% to 45%, so many people suffer without receiving the support they need. The average lifespan in my area for people after a dementia diagnosis is 15 years, so living with and managing the condition is critical.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
I would like to raise a small point about living with the condition on behalf of my constituent, Caroline Simpson, who has dementia but is physically capable of walking a certain distance. Her family have been unable to get a disabled person’s parking badge. This is an example of the problems that occur in living with dementia.
Andrew Jones
My hon. Friend makes an important point. The challenges are not fully understood and the support that people need is not recognised. That example is just one of many forms of discrimination that can take place.
In North Yorkshire there have recently been some changes in the way the problem is tackled. The Harrogate Dementia Collaborative has been formed, which brings together different bodies. I have met the collaborative and it has told me of the progress it has made. Bringing good care together really makes a difference. It means bringing together the different providers: the local mental health trust, the foundation trust, social services and the voluntary sector.
A few ingredients have contributed to the progress that has been made: working together to provide that integration, which I have already mentioned, and cross-service working is not always easy within our public services; specialist memory nurses, who were not in place two years ago; a clearer pathway to correct and timely treatment, leading to great progress on waiting times; and a determination to provide care in the home or as locally as possible. I applaud the focus being placed on dementia nationally by the Prime Minister and by Health Ministers, both in this Government and the previous one.
When I meet mental health groups in my constituency, one of the issues they raise with me is the provision of a safe haven, a secure place where people can feel safe, and “safe” is the word that is used time and again. It is a place where they can find understanding of the challenges they face, where there is no stigma and where a supportive environment exists. Such places must be provided by local NHS mental health services, but they can also be supported by the work of the voluntary services. I would like to pay tribute to Harrogate Mind and its team, led by its chair, Mr Peter Thompson. I have visited its base, the Acorn centre on Station parade in Harrogate, and found it to be a friendly and relaxed environment with a fantastic range of activities. Users have told me that they view it as an essential safe place for them. However, the provision of such places is also a public duty, something that must be recognised in the NHS and the police services, as the police are often on the front line in dealing with those who face mental health issues.
Lastly, I have been pleased to see the Government recognise the importance of mental health through publication of their “No health without mental health” strategy. I want to see mental health given the status it deserves.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) on securing the debate and thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting it. I also pay tribute to all hon. Members who have spoken today and in the previous debate. They have covered many aspects of mental health, many types of mental health illnesses and many groups of people affected by them.
When many normal members of the public think about people who suffer from mental health problems, they often think about those who go around killing or assaulting people or self-harming, but they are a small minority. The majority of people with mental health problems, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) said earlier, look very normal; it could be any one of us, or people who look similar to us. Mental health issues do not often result in people self-harming, but there can be problems with depression or with how to relate to families and friends or to the community at large.
Of course, sometimes those health issues are difficult to identify and assess, and as a result it is sometimes hard to prescribe the right treatment. However, I believe that if enough time and effort is taken to try to identify the problem and support the person fully, it is probably easier to find out what is going on and what the right treatment is.
Members have already touched on how people can be reluctant to talk about their mental health issues because there is still an element of stigma and shame. Although it is great that people are talking about it, we know that it is still not being talked about enough and that there is still stigma. Mental health issues can also affect employment and housing and can lead to rejection by family and friends.
Different communities and groups of people have been mentioned. My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) quite properly touched on mental health issues in the armed forces, and other hon. Members touched on mental health issues in black and minority ethnic communities. I will mention that as well because, in addition to a number of barriers, such as jobs, stigma and rejection by family and friends, they also face the barrier of accessing appropriate care and treatment that is also culturally sensitive.
Although it is accepted that there is nothing genetically that makes people from black and minority ethnic groups more vulnerable to mental health issues, often those issues are not diagnosed properly. Psychiatry in the United Kingdom, understandably, is based on the western understanding of mental illness and often medical models are used to treat it, but in fact mental health means different things to different people from different cultures and different communities, and they can be affected by many different issues, such as spiritual, religious and background issues. Those might relate, for example, to the countries they have come from. Therefore, a purely medical approach is not necessarily the right one for many people. A more holistic approach that looks at a person’s overall health should be considered.
Contrary to what was said earlier, there are of course problems with resources. We know that mental health issues can be very expensive to deal with, because often it is hard to identify what is happening and the treatment might take months or years and require one-to-one assessment. It is much easier when somebody has a damaged arm or a faulty kidney; such conditions can be expensive to treat, but at least they can be identified and treated. Once the treatment is done, the person recovers. But mental health is unique in that respect, because that does not happen.
We know that drug and alcohol addiction is often linked with mental health issues. In fact, units that deal with addiction are very expensive, so there are funding problems. I know that from my own practical knowledge and experience, having been a criminal law practitioner for 20 years before becoming a Member of Parliament. When clients were charged with various criminal offences, they often had psychiatric problems or problems with drug or alcohol addiction. When they were being sentenced, the pre-sentence report would often require us to look into drug or alcohol rehabilitation units. The first question we used to ask was whether the local authority or social services responsible for the person had the necessary funding. Weeks used to go by while everybody searched around to find the funding so that the person could go into the unit. That is why I raised funding for mental health issues earlier and questioned whether it is sufficient and appropriately applied to the whole country. In parts of the country, there are very good practices and systems, but in many others that is not the case. It is a question of ensuring that the same treatment, facilities and services are available across the whole country.
More treatment centres should be available in the criminal justice system. There should also be more psychologists and psychiatrists. The problem we had in criminal cases was that the person in question often needed to be assessed by a medical expert or psychologist, and it used to take weeks and weeks before that could be done, which then used to take time away from treatment. Six months can elapse between somebody being charged and getting treatment. That is if they even get the treatment, because sometimes the funding authority will not fund it, so they end up in the prison system, which does not help them. That is partly why a large number of people, in comparison with the rest of the population, commit suicide in prison.
Everybody here, including Ministers, I am sure, wants to deal with mental health on a humanitarian level, but there is also an economic and financial case for ensuring that the system is working properly. If we are able to help a person to recover from their mental health problems, it will be better for our country and for society generally. For example, if an adult who cares for children suffers mental health problems and is not treated properly, those children will often be taken away and put into care homes or with foster families. That is an incredibly expensive process. If we are able to support and help the parent, the thousands of pounds that it would cost to deal with the problem will be saved. Everyone talks about the humanitarian case, and we all agree with that, but it makes economic sense as well.
I pay tribute to hon. Members who have mentioned their mental health experiences; it is great that that has happened. I hope there is a debate about this issue in the rest of the country and it is appreciated that many people can experience mental health problems of differing natures. If we recognise that, then medical and social services professionals, and others, can intervene to help. I congratulate the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) and my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham on talking about their experiences. It takes a lot of courage for a public person to mention these issues, and I thank them for what they have said.
John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
I apologise to the House for not having been here at the start of the debate. I was in the Finance Bill Committee, and unfortunately I cannot be in two places at the same time. I also apologise for missing the introductory speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow). I pay tribute to everything he has done to put mental health on Parliament’s agenda.
It is unquestionably the case that Parliament has got its act into gear on this. I refer to Parliament rather than the Government or the Opposition because this is genuinely an all-party matter. Last night I went to a very encouraging event, which other hon. Members attended, run by the Alzheimer’s Society. The Minister was there, as was the shadow Secretary of State, a Conservative Minister, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, and they spoke with their customary eloquence. In fact, to be fair, there were not very many Members there. I think that other people were detained with matters that had something to do with Europe. However, all of us who were there would have to acknowledge that no matter how eloquently the Minister or the shadow Minister spoke, the most impressive speech was by a very feisty medical lady who had Alzheimer’s and discussed the importance of talking about her condition and people talking to her about it.
That emphasises the fact that there is a blurred division between people who have mental problems, allegedly, and those who appear not to have them. There genuinely is not a clear distinction, other than at the extremes. If we were asked who here has perfect mental health, we would not necessarily all volunteer with alacrity, any more than we would if someone asked who has perfect physical health. It is rather like the Bible saying that the person who is without sin has to step forward. We would not say that because we acknowledge that we all have our own peculiarities and weaknesses and are not as mentally robust as we would always wish to be.
I was made aware of that the other day when I went to an event organised by Liverpool Personal Service Society, which is a well-established charity. The event was a memory day for elderly people in which it invited me to participate. The old ladies and old men were passing round objects that came from their youth, and music was being played in the background that also came from their youth. The environment was made to look almost like a 1950s drawing room. I was very struck by what it did for them. It was like the events organised by football clubs such as Everton and my own local football club in Southport, which bring old men together to talk about teams long since vanished and the glories of the past.
I picked up on two important features of that occasion. First, it was undoubtedly beneficial to the people concerned, who have dementia. Secondly, it is not in any way onerous for anybody else to participate in it. It is incredible fun. It is really enjoyable to hear these people talking about things that are now obsolete, like cigarette cases, nylons of the kind that people had in the war, or EPs—things that we no longer have and that our children do not even understand. That brings it home to us that memory is very relative. There is no magic cut-off point between a memory lapse that may afflict us at any time—
John Pugh
We are presumably talking about unintentional memory lapses—senior moments that may afflict any of us.
There is no absolute cut-off point between mildly obsessive behaviour and obsessive compulsive disorder, between mood swings and genuine bipolar conditions, or even between irrational fears of which everybody is sometimes a victim and some of the conditions we would call paranoia. There is a continuum; it is, to some extent, a matter of degree. It is even possible, apparently, to have hallucinations without having schizophrenia. Delusions are not unique to asylums; there are many victims in this place. There is nothing especially rational about clever, civilised people gathering here every Wednesday at 12 o’clock just to shout at one another.
There are two aspects to addressing the stigma of mental health. One of those is to persuade people that this can happen to anyone, including MPs. That is very important. The other job is to persuade the public that mental health is not an either/or, black/white distinction. I recognise that there are conditions such as serious neurological malfunctions, deterioration of the brain, and so on. Affective disorders can be evident in people classified as being well and also in people classified as being unwell with mental health issues. What determines the classification is not only the severity of the condition—the extent to which the person is down one continuum or another—but the capacity of society to deal with the condition and the ability of the person to cope within society with the condition. The cultural comparison made by the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) is useful in this context. The mental health of a society and the mental health of individuals are intertwined, and one is the index of the other. I wonder whether, when we talk in this place about producing a prosperous society or economic growth, or doing something about social mobility or social inequality, we ask ourselves sufficiently whether we are doing enough to make society a happy place for us all to live in.
Let me add one other point with which I think you, Madam Deputy Speaker, will be au fait. Community treatment orders were a bone of contention throughout the passage of the Mental Capacity Act 2005, when I served on the Bill Committee. We have to review that issue, and the Minister needs to make a response. I think that we made the right decision, but that depends on whether the Act is understood and implemented properly. There is a genuine case, particularly given some of the variations, for trying to see whether we have got it right.
Mr Charles Walker
On that point, it is very important to ensure that advocacy requirements are being met.
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to speak in this debate. I had not planned to do so, but I realised earlier today that I wanted to address an aspect of female genital mutilation, which I have discussed often in the House. When I listened to the opening speeches, I realised that I have never talked about an issue that many of the campaigners I work with discuss a lot, namely the mental health aspects of both acute and, in particular, chronic FGM.
I just want to put the issue on the record for the Minister to think about; I do not expect any instant answers. As many Members have said, it is hard enough to talk about mental health, but raising the issue of the mental health problems of the victims of a secret, taboo and illegal practice that we have never successfully prosecuted adds several layers of difficulty to an already difficult situation. We know enough, however, for the matter to be put on the record so that somebody at the Department of Health can at least think about it. We should be worried about it.
Female genital mutilation is practised in many countries around the world, but it is predominantly an African practice. In this country, it is practised predominantly by communities from east and sub-Saharan Africa. Most professionals in the field think that the largest diaspora groups in which FGM remains prevalent are probably from Kenya and Somalia; it is certainly heavily practised in those countries.
In the absence of a more up-to-date study, people work on the numbers given in a 2007 study by FORWARD—the Foundation for Women’s Health, Research and Development—which was itself based on the 2001 census. The study established that there are at least 66,000 women with FGM living in England and Wales and that about 21,000 more girls are at risk of becoming victims. Of course, given the substantial migratory trends of people from practising countries to the UK in recent years, the real figure is likely to be higher.
In 2004, the British Medical Association recorded that it believed that there were 9,032 births to women who had had FGM. It should be noted that not all hospitals are required or able to record FGM at birth, and I know that one of the Minister’s ministerial colleagues is looking at trying to get that right. Recent freedom of information requests by the press also show that hundreds of similar women are giving birth every year in hospitals in Leeds, London and elsewhere. We know that this is a problem and that the practice is not being abandoned at anywhere near our desired rate.
During visits to schools in my constituency in recent months, I have asked questions about the issue—other Members may also have done so—but I have not received any satisfactory answers. Most recently, a headmistress who knew about the practice, which is unusual, had been told by a school community worker, “Don’t go there. Let’s not talk about that topic.” This is a problem; do not let anyone believe that it is a myth and that we do not have a problem in the UK.
A study cited by the World Health Organisation in the mid-2000s examined the effects of FGM on the mental health of women. The researchers concluded that FGM is
“likely to cause various emotional disturbances, forging the way to psychiatric disorders,”
especially post-traumatic stress disorder, possible memory dysfunction and other problems associated with trauma.
This issue was brought home to me by a Radio 5 programme I took part in recently after a two-part story on “Casualty”—they were two very powerful episodes—featured the acute health aspects of FGM. The story centred on an older sister who was trying to stop her younger sister being taken abroad to be mutilated, and on the impact of birth on the mother of the family, who had been infibulated.
One of the other guests on the Radio 5 discussion the following morning was a marvellous GP called Dr Abe from Slough, who told me that she sees two or three women a week who have chronic illnesses, some of which are mental-health related, associated with FGM. She asked me—the BMA stresses this and I will cite its guidance in a moment—to imagine the trauma experienced by a small girl who is being held down by people who are usually relatives or people she knows while a brutal procedure is carried out on her without anaesthetic. It is not difficult to imagine that such children will be troubled.
In case anyone thinks that such things do not really happen, let me point out that Dr Abe said that she regularly deals with children and young women whose bodies are contorted with pain and whose limbs are bruised, broken, battered and dislocated as a result of being held down by relatives. Few people who have that done to them by those who purport to be their loved ones will then go on to live with them as a family. I think we can all imagine the special and difficult mental health problem associated with that, and we are only beginning to understand it.
The BMA’s 2011 guidance acknowledged that little is documented about the psycho-sexual and psychological effects of FGM, but it does say:
“Long term consequences might also include behavioural disturbances as a result of the childhood trauma and possible loss of trust and confidence in carers who have permitted, or been involved in, a painful and distressing procedure”
and that
“women may have feelings of incompleteness, anxiety and depression, and suffer chronic irritability, frigidity, marital conflicts, or even psychosis.”
Many of the professionals and campaigners I work with stress the growing problem of anger, particularly among young women who suffered FGM before coming to this country. They are in a conflicted state, because the mentality of those who put them through FGM could not be more different from the mentality that they see around them in Britain. It is considered entirely normal in a sexualised society for magazines to invite young women to express their sexuality and have a fulfilled sex life. If someone has had a procedure carried out on them, the entire aim of which is to stop them wanting to have sex and to be a sexual person, and to restrict them and preserve their virginity—and everything else associated with the centuries-old tradition of FGM—that leads to conflict.
Both Efua Dorkenoo, who wrote the WHO guidelines, and campaigners such as Nimco Ali of Daughters of Eve talk about a growing pool of angry young women who are caught between those two very different worlds. It is also difficult for them to talk about it, because the subject is already taboo. Some Members may have read a recent article in The Sunday Times, which reported that Nimco Ali, who has been very bold in speaking out, has been threatened by people telling her that she should stop speaking out.
Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)
Is the hon. Lady saying that FGM is taking place in this country, or are parents taking their children abroad to have it done before coming back?
Jane Ellison
That does not relate strictly to the debate topic, but I will answer. We do not strictly know, but a growing body of evidence suggests that FGM does happen here. The girls I meet through some of the groups I work with will say off the record that it is happening here, but it is more difficult to get people to say so on the record and to point the police in the right direction. For example, women are re-presenting having being re-infibulated in hospital, which is also illegal. I think there is enough evidence now to suggest that FGM is happening here, but I think that the predominant view, and that of the police and the Crown Prosecution Service, is that girls being taken overseas is still the biggest problem. Since 2004, when a private Member’s Bill closed a loophole in the Prohibition of Female Circumcision Act 1985, such girls have also been covered by British law. The extraterritorial aspect of the law means that it is against the law to take a British resident or citizen abroad to perform FGM on them. Either way, that is covered. I think it is happening here, but we do not know.
Jane Ellison
No; to the eternal shame of this country, in 25 years of this being an illegal act, there have been no prosecutions.
In recent times—I will return to the mental health aspects in a moment, Mr Deputy Speaker—we have had encouragement because Keir Starmer, the Director of Public Prosecutions, has been really good on this issue. He has a new action plan for the Crown Prosecution Service. It has reopened several old cases and is going through them with the police to see whether a prosecution is possible. It is also looking more imaginatively at prosecuting the aiders and the abetters, such as the people who set up the travel and those who supply the strong pain killers. If we wait for a seven-year-old girl to walk into a police station and report her parents, we will have a long wait. That is one reason why there have been no prosecutions. However, I am more optimistic now than ever that the police and the CPS are taking the matter seriously.
To return to the mental health aspects, a recent survey by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children showed that 83% of teachers either do not know about FGM or have had no training on it. From memory, 16% of teachers thought that condemning FGM was culturally insensitive. That is extremely disturbing, given that it is an illegal act.
Mr Charles Walker
It is child abuse. There is no ambiguity. It is child abuse and it must be stopped.
Jane Ellison
I could not agree more.
My worry is about the 83% of teachers who just do not know about FGM or have not had the training. There are good guidelines, but they are not statutory. Not enough is filtering down. In my constituency, I have encountered people who say, “Don’t go there. It’s too difficult.” There is a role for Members of Parliament in pushing this matter at a constituency level. If teachers have no idea what FGM is or what the behavioural and psychological consequences might be, they will fail to understand why a young girl who has come back from being mutilated abroad is exhibiting naughty, disturbed or bad behaviour. It is therefore important to get more knowledge out there about the physical and psychological aspects of FGM so that we can understand and help children who present with signs of being disturbed.
In UK culture, women have an expectation that their sex life will be enjoyable and that they can have a normal expression of female sexuality. That is very much at odds with the mentality that leads to somebody being mutilated. Many of the women who are suffering the physical and mental complications of FGM do not speak English and live in socially isolated communities in which they are not encouraged to speak about it because it is entirely taboo. That is added to the taboo of speaking about mental health.
The lack of knowledge about FGM among teachers and medical professionals will increasingly be a problem as diaspora communities become scattered to places in the country where professionals do not see it as much. It is easier for a specialist in central London to know what they are looking for. Even if we stopped all FGM happening to young girls tomorrow—would that we could—we would still have to deal with the large number of women who are suffering the long-term consequences of it.
There is documentary evidence that some parents have second thoughts about having done this to their children. Some parents express regret. The Home Office had a good initiative last year, which we adopted from the Dutch, in which it provided girls and parents with a health passport to carry abroad with them to remind members of their extended family that the practice is illegal in the UK and that they must not do it, but must respect the rights of the child.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. It is for the Chair to decide what is in order and what the debate is about. I need no help from the Back Benches, although it was very kind of the hon. Lady to intervene.
Jane Ellison
I have clearly outstayed my welcome, so I will conclude. I realise that time is short.
The point that I want to make is that there is a significant mental health aspect to FGM, but that it is not well documented. Not many of our front-line professionals have it at the front of their minds when trying to explain other problems. I just want to put that on the record so that the Minister and the Department of Health can reflect on it and so that it starts to become a normal thing for mental health professionals to talk about and think about, particularly when they see people from communities that practise FGM and who might have suffered it.
Many of the young girls and women who talk about FGM speak of a silent scream for help. All I wanted to do today was to give that scream a voice in the House of Commons.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
One of the first mental health cases that I came across was that of a wife and mother who had been subjected to repeated rape by an invading force. She was a refugee in this country. It was a tragic case. Although the physical manifestations of the ordeal had healed, the mental manifestations continued a decade on. She could not function either as a woman or as a mother and wife. That case drove home to me that many of the mental health issues that we face in this country are ignored simply because we cannot see them. That is reflected in the funding priorities in the NHS.
Two issues have come to my attention recently through my casework: the speed of treatment and the consistency of care. One of my constituents had to wait for many weeks to be referred to a psychiatrist. She was able to cope with that, but every time she went to see the psychiatrist for an appointment, she saw a new psychiatrist and had to repeat her case history. Although the notes may have been there, the new psychiatrist either had not bothered to read them or wanted the patient to repeat the details. That was disruptive to the treatment.
My second constituent was a young teenager who grew up being treated for an eating disorder in a residential unit. I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) has returned to her place; I heard her powerful comments. When my constituent turned 18 or 19, she was no longer suitable for the facility that she was in. She had to fight for a new facility, with the help of her parents. When she eventually got into a new facility, it was not in the same place or with the same clinicians. That disruption of care and change in setting set her and her family back a huge amount.
No matter what I did, I could not make the mental health trust realise that sometimes the rules are there to be broken, or at least bent, if the mental health of the patient would benefit from continuity. Continuing my constituent’s care when she was 19 or 20 might not fit the rules, but it fitted the patient. I gently ask the Minister whether there might be some service-level agreements on allowing flexibility in provision.
The NHS website on improving access to psychological therapies does not mention service standards, consistency of clinical care or speed of referrals. The website of the Barnet, Enfield and Haringey Mental NHS Trust mentions a named care co-ordinator, who I assume is an administrator, but there is no mention of clinical standards or continuity and speed of care.
I realise that this is a complex issue and that there are no easy solutions, but I gently ask the Minister whether the Department of Health will consider publishing guidance on speed and continuity of care because it would benefit my constituents greatly.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
I apologise to the House for not being present for the debate’s opening speeches, which was due to circumstances beyond my control. I certainly meant no lack of respect for this debate; I think these Backbench Business Committee debates have been one of the more important and successful innovations of this Parliament, and mental health is a particularly important subject.
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) on leading the debate in a detailed and informative fashion, and my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), who raised a number of important points, including alcohol abuse and its impact on mental health—those two issues are inextricably linked. I follow the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) in saying that if we are concerned about addressing alcohol abuse, one issue—although not the only issue—must be to do something about the flood of cheap alcohol that is overwhelming some of our communities, and put in place a minimum price for alcohol. I am glad to say that that is the Labour party’s policy.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) on his speech. I remember a similar debate last year in which he made a moving speech about his experience, which resonated country-wide. Since then, he has shown great leadership in the mental health all-party group. He made a number of important points, including the fact that although the NHS can be good at managing symptoms, it is not necessarily so good at addressing their underlying causes. I will return to that issue when I mention Atos later in my remarks.
I am sorry to have missed the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). He is always well worth listening to, and he too received country-wide respect for his contribution to last year’s debate on mental health when he spoke about his personal circumstances for the first time on the Floor of the House. He made a number of important points, including that mental illness and depression are equal opportunity conditions. They do not discriminate; they affect all social classes and backgrounds.
The hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) spoke about a number of issues, including borderline personality disorders and the way that eating disorders affect women and girls. She made the important point that, although we sometimes associate mental disorders with socially marginalised communities and persons, eating disorders can affect the most high-achieving, educationally focused girls. That issue should not be trivialised because it is harming the life chances, health and well-being of many young women up and down the country.
My good Friend the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) made an important speech about mentally ill people in prison. When getting caught up with the “prison works” narrative, it is worth remembering how many people in prison are either illiterate or simply mentally ill, and if we want to contain the number of people in the prison estate, we must address the mentally ill. My hon. Friend also mentioned black and minority ethnic communities and mental health, and I will return to that point later.
The hon. Member for Totnes made an important speech and mentioned social exclusion and BME mental health. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) made an important speech about Olaseni Lewis and the issue of black and minority ethnic persons detained under the Mental Health Act 1983. I am glad that the Minister has agreed to meet my hon. Friend and engage with him and the family on that issue. The hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) also made an important speech.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) made a speech about—among other things—the importance of a holistic treatment for mental health issues and taking account of people’s different cultural backgrounds, which I thought was important. There was, as always, an interesting and provocative speech from the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh), and I was interested to listen to the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) who spoke about mental health and female genital mutilation—if it had been my choice, her speech could have gone on longer. I thought she raised important issues, and the House should respect the lead that she has shown in addressing the issue, which is difficult for people outside the affected communities to address. If in future some young girls are not subjected to that child abuse because of her work, she will deserve the congratulations of this House. The hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) also made an important contribution.
We have heard figures for the incidence and prevalence of mental health problems, and because it is a Cinderella service and a Cinderella issue it is always worth reminding people that one in six people in Britain is affected by mental illness at any one time. In other words, almost every family will have experience of mental health. It is not something that happens to other people, but something that happens in our own families. One in four of us will suffer from mental illness at some point, and by 2030 depression will be the leading cause of disease around the world, costing the NHS a further £10 billion a year. The criminal justice system will also pick up the bill because 70% of those in our prisons have a mental illness. Mental health problems cost British business almost £26 billion a year.
The subject has been addressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) who made an important speech to the Royal College of Psychiatrists in October last year. The key points he made are worth reporting and concern the importance of breaking down stigma—something that the House dwelt on at length in last year’s debate—and the importance of parity of esteem for mental health within the NHS. My mother was a mental health nurse in Huddersfield, and her hospital was a former Victorian workhouse on the fringes of Huddersfield. Having an old workhouse outside the city for mental health issues, and mainstream health services in the centre, illustrates the lack of parity of esteem for mental health in relation to the services we offer, and also to practitioners at every level within mental health services.
Finally, my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North mentioned the importance of mental health in our society, and argued that good mental health does not start in hospitals but in workplaces, schools and communities. He took the opportunity last October to announce the formation of a taskforce on mental health in society, which will look in particular at employers and the role they play.
Jeremy Corbyn
Perhaps my hon. Friend can help me. I hope that the taskforce will also look at issues surrounding the voluntary sector and its excellent work within the mental health service, as well as the dangerous tendency of franchising out mental health services to the private sector by some mental health trusts that do it for profit rather than care.
Ms Abbott
My hon. Friend’s points are well made.
Let me consider the future for mental health and set out for the House how important the role of local authorities can be in addressing the social determinants of mental ill health. Public health has become the responsibility of local authorities. They have a ring-fenced public health budget, and despite all their pressures and difficulties—which I do not seek to minimise—there is an opportunity for local authorities to do important and interesting work, bringing together education and housing with health care to address mental health problems and intervene in them early.
I was shocked to hear of a social housing project near King’s Cross that, presumably to make its tenants more manageable, did not want to give tenancies either to people who had a history of rent arrears or to people who had a history of mental health problems. Such things need to be highlighted and addressed. Sitting responsibility for public health with local authorities could address mental health, particularly in respect of early intervention and preventive work with children in schools.
I gave a speech this morning on the crisis in masculinity. We need to focus on the mental health challenges that face men. Whether it is because they are unwilling to come forward or because of stress in society, we know that, during a recession or economic downturn, suicide rates among men increase. Suicide is currently the biggest cause of death among under 35s. In planning services nationally and locally, we need to pay particular attention to that issue among others.
The hon. Member for Totnes made an important point. She said that, in our desire to reduce health tourism—a desire supported by the Opposition—there is a notion that people will need their passport when they turn up to see their GP. That runs the risk of making it harder for the socially excluded to access health care—many simply do not have a passport or such documentation.
I will not speak at this point about the merits or otherwise of the welfare reforms, but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that they are having an effect on the mental health of some who are caught up in the system. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that Atos, as it is currently configured and as it currently operates, does not meet the needs or seem to understand the problems of people with mental health challenges.
Mark Hendrick
I am sure that my hon. Friend, like many other hon. Members, has come across many constituents attending surgeries who are developing serious mental health problems purely and simply because of the pressures caused by the reforms to the benefits system. I am finding that people who are mentally ill and do not know it are getting worse—they are under pressure from the benefit changes that have been made and those that will take place in future.
Mr Charles Walker
I apologise to the hon. Lady because I am about to leave the Chamber—I am chairing a debate in Westminster Hall in a moment. I agree entirely that Atos should not be a blunt instrument used to beat those who have mental illness. We need a system that empowers people with mental illness to re-enter the labour market, and not one that terrifies them.
I endorse the hon. Lady’s views on young men. Young men need to feel part of something and they need to feel wanted by their community. They need to have a job and a role. If they do not have those things, they join gangs. Her point about young men was beautifully and perfectly made.
Ms Abbott
I entirely agree with hon. Gentleman. Changes in society and economic changes such as the collapse of manufacturing and of de-industrialisation have left many young men unclear about their role, which puts tremendous pressure on their health and well-being.
Before concluding, I want to say a few words on black and minority ethnic persons and mental health. It has been known for at least 25 years that BME persons are disproportionately present in the mental health system. We are more likely to be diagnosed as schizophrenic, less likely to be offered talking therapy, and more likely to be offered drugs and electro-convulsive treatment—the hon. Member for Totnes touched on that important point. There is therefore a great deal of fear and anxiety about approaching the mental health system on the part of some of our BME communities. Very often, mothers will be trapped at home with sons who have serious mental challenges. I have dealt with cases in which they are assaulted in their own homes, but are so frightened of the system that they will stay trapped rather than take their sons for treatment. That is a real problem. We must monitor what is happening and use the voluntary sector. We need to ensure that minority groups do not hold back from presenting with mental health problems. The later people present, the more severe the problems.
Mental health is the biggest financial burden on the health service. It will affect the families of all hon. Members in the Chamber in our lifetimes. There is much to be concerned about in mental health trends. For instance, there is a rise in mental health issues among young people. Fully half of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender youngsters are self-harming.
As I have said, there is a relationship between an economic downturn and a rise in suicides of men under the age of 35. None the less, there is the possibility of progress. I believe that there is now less stigma about mental health than there was a generation ago, and the debate we had last year on the Floor of the House played its part in helping to lessen it. I think there is more understanding about some of the contributory issues than there was a generation ago, and I believe that public health going to local authorities opens up the possibility of innovation in mental health, working together with the voluntary sector.
I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam for securing the debate. I hope that it is part of a process of parity of esteem that will improve the outcomes for so many of our men, women, family members and communities.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)
I thank the shadow Minister for her contribution. I feel that this subject brings out the best in this place—we have had a well-informed, civilised and rational debate. There has been no political point scoring, just thoughtful concentration on an important subject, and I am grateful to all hon. Members.
Before I come on to the contribution of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), I will say that I completely agree with the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) that the arrival of public health in local authorities presents us with an opportunity. The establishment of Public Health England brings its expertise to bear on its relationships with local practitioners in public health, working alongside other services. The potential for public mental health, which has been largely disregarded or ignored in too many places in the past, is real. At the conference for the directors of children and adult services in Eastbourne last October, I attended a presentation by an academic from the London School of Economics on the economic case for interventions in public mental health. There is a powerful return on investment, which means that people are benefiting from it. We have a great opportunity, and I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s comments.
The hon. Lady made important comments about black and minority ethnic communities and the mental health system, and I will come back to that. I appreciated the comments made by the hon. Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed), and I will refer to them later.
The hon. Lady raised the issue of suicide and young people. There are too many cases in too many hospitals where people who have self-harmed turn up and do not get a psycho-social assessment. We know that having that assessment, with the therapy that can follow, massively reduces the risk of suicide, yet only about 50% of A and E departments ensure that that happens. That has to change, because lives are literally at stake. We have to take this issue very seriously.
I am tremendously grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for giving us another chance to talk about mental health. I again pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam for leading the debate and for the great work he did in office to lay the foundations for the progress we are now tangibly making. The previous Government invested heavily in mental health, as well as the rest of the health service, and it is right to acknowledge that progress was made in that period. The focus on parity of esteem, and making it a reality, is potentially exciting. I was struck by an interview with Angela McNab, the chief executive of the Kent and Medway mental health trust, which is one of the larger mental health trusts. She said that the Government were
“prioritising mental health like never before, making sure that it fits on a par with physical health”—
and that this had come as a welcome step change to mental health professionals. That is an encouraging view from the front line.
My right hon. Friend raised several important points, including about recovery colleges. I am very interested in the whole recovery model and the role of recovery colleges. He also talked about the importance of the inspiring Time to Change campaign, which is part- funded by the Government. I mentioned earlier that I am encouraging all Departments to sign up to that campaign, so that we can lead from the front. We cannot expect private sector and other public sector employers to act properly if the Government do not lead, so it is important to demonstrate parity of esteem in the way that the Government treat employees.
My right hon. Friend also referred to the adult psychiatric morbidity survey. I can confirm that discussions are taking place between the Department and the Health and Social Care Information Centre and that it should take place in 2014. He also referred to the intelligence network. NHS England and Public Health England are developing plans and using the cancer intelligence network as a model, not necessarily to replicate, but to learn from. I am grateful to him for raising those issues.
The impassioned words that we have heard today show that within these walls lies the ambition, across all parties, to make the necessary changes, and I thank all hon. Members who have spoken about their experiences, views and, yes, even their criticisms. This sort of open debate can help to challenge stigma, scrutinise services and scrutinise commissioning decisions, which are critical in terms of how much money is allocated to mental health as against physical health and to ensuring that mental health remains a core priority not just for the Government, the House and the NHS and care system, but for the whole of society.
We have heard many good contributions. I shall write to hon. Members to respond to the substantive challenges and questions they have raised, but let me touch now on several quick points made today. The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) mentioned the importance of recognising the link between alcohol abuse and mental health. She talked about people who have left the armed forces with problems of post-traumatic stress disorder, which has become prevalent with the conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan and so forth. Simon Wessely and his colleagues are doing some fantastic work on that.
The hon. Lady also mentioned the role of the police, particularly the Metropolitan police, and made the valid point that they are not trained well enough or systematically enough. Lord Adebowale, whom I met this week to talk about his report, makes the point that the police will always have to deal with mental health. It is not a question of it being wrong that they are dealing with it; the critical point is that there should be close working between the police and mental health services so that there is an immediate referral, not an inappropriate placing of someone in a police cell. Just imagine suffering from a mental health crisis and ending up in a police cell. It is the worst possible thing that could happen. Even children sometimes end up in police stations. It is totally inappropriate and avoidable—that is the important point.
The hon. Members for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) and for North Durham (Mr Jones), who have done so much to challenge stigma, have performed a valuable service in speaking out about their own experiences of mental illness. They have demonstrated, very visibly, that someone can be successful and make an enormous contribution to society, yet also have mental health problems. That is an incredibly important point. The hon. Member for Broxbourne talked about the role of employers and mentioned some really good employers, such as BT. This is about enlightened self-interest, not just about being kind to people. It is in companies’ and employers’ interests, including the Government’s, to treat mental health issues seriously. The cost to employers when those suffering from mental health problems lose their jobs—the loss of all the training and experience or just the sickness absence—is enormous, but it can be significantly reduced with a smarter approach. The hon. Member for North Durham talked about a number of individuals who have had mental health issues, but also been very successful. He talked a lot about the importance of tackling stigma.
The hon. Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) made an important contribution about the treatment of black people by mental health services—the shadow Minister talked about that as well. There is something wrong that has to be challenged. The hon. Gentleman raised the case of Seni Lewis, which I am happy to talk to him about—I have surgeries on Monday night and we can discuss this. I have agreed to attend the Black Mental Health conference on police and mental health in June, because I felt it was important that I should engage in this whole issue and take it as seriously as it deserves to be.
The hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston)—I apologise for missing her contribution and a number of others—raised a number of issues. I will ensure that she receives proper responses to them. She talked about liaison psychiatry. While we are talking about emergency services, one thing that has become more and more apparent to me is the complete disparity between what happens to people with mental health problems and what happens to those with physical health problems. I was utterly shocked—but sadly not surprised—by a letter that a Member of Parliament in the south-west wrote on behalf of a constituent. The constituent had rung the crisis number for mental health services in his area and had not got a reply. No one was answering the crisis helpline. On another occasion they rang and were asked to ring back in half an hour. In the meantime that person could have committed suicide.
Then we come to what happens in A and E and the fact that in too many hospitals there is no mental health specialism available. Last Saturday I met a constituent who had found her son at home with ligature marks round his neck. She took him to A and E, where there was a half-hour conversation with a junior doctor before he was discharged home. The next day she found him hanging in her home. She is determined to pursue the complete failure of the system when something so dreadful can happen.
Whether we are talking about what happens when someone is picked up in the middle of a mental health crisis by the police and taken to a police station inappropriately, what happens when someone tries to get in touch with crisis services or what happens at A and E, we have to have an effective emergency mental health response system in place. This is a matter of real urgency, so I have asked all the relevant organisations—the Home Office, the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Department of Health, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and so on—to come together and draw up an agreed plan to tackle the most stark differences between the treatment received by people with physical health needs and that received by those with mental health needs.
Paul Burstow
That is a welcome announcement from the Minister about achieving parity of esteem in emergency and crisis care. However, in the wake of the Francis inquiry, which rightly drew our attention to serious patient safety and dignity issues in our physical health care system, I suspect that we will need to ensure that we are not distracted or led into not addressing the same issues—which clearly exist—in our mental health systems.
Norman Lamb
My right hon. Friend makes a very good point and I completely agree.
The hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) spoke again about eating disorders—I took part in a debate that she secured in Westminster Hall. She talked about the role of parents, the nightmare of a child—I will call them a child—over the age of 16 deciding to refuse treatment and the horror that parents sometimes go through when they are not listened to sufficiently by clinicians dealing with their loved one’s condition. She also mentioned type 1 diabetes sufferers, and I would be interested to hear more about that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) is no longer here. Oh, yes he is! He has moved to a different place, just to confuse me. He talked about the low diagnosis rate for Alzheimer’s and dementia in his area. He also stressed the importance of the recognition of mental health by the Government, which I think he welcomed.
The hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) talked about the importance of accessing appropriate and culturally sensitive care and treatment. That is incredibly important, as is getting the approach right for each individual and giving them the power to determine their priorities. She made those points well. She also stressed that the picture round the country was very variable. That is more the case in mental health than in physical health. Some areas have great services, some of which I have witnessed, but in others they are simply not good enough.
Ms Abbott
On the question of culturally appropriate care, does the Minister agree that it can extend to quite mundane matters? There are mental health wards in this country with large numbers of BME people in them. Those people sometimes do not have the right hair care or the right music, or they might not have their culinary needs addressed. Those things can be really disturbing for someone who is already in a mentally fragile condition.
Norman Lamb
Yes, I completely agree. This is about treating people as individuals, and with dignity and respect. Those things are important to people and they should be treated as such.
Jeremy Corbyn
My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and I raised the question of the work capability interviews being undertaken by the Department for Work and Pensions with people with mental health conditions. I do not think that the Minister was in the Chamber at the time, but we suggested that it would be better for the DWP to have access to those people’s medical reports rather than conducting rather bald interviews. Would the Minister be prepared to undertake discussions with the DWP about the treatment during those interviews of people who suffer from mental health conditions?
Norman Lamb
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I was going to mention his contribution, even though I was not present to hear it, for which I apologise. As a Member of Parliament, concerns have been raised with me about the suitability of those tests for people with mental health problems, and I was going to suggest that I should talk to the appropriate Minister at the DWP. I am of course happy to do that. Someone else made the point that this is not a question of not addressing the need to help people get back into work. Work is particularly important in relation to people suffering from mental ill health, and the idea that we should simply leave them undisturbed and out of work for the rest of their lives is totally wrong. The way in which we handle this is incredibly important, however, and if we have more to learn in that regard, we should be prepared to learn the lessons.
Mr Kevan Jones
I made the point in my speech that work was good for people with mental illness. The problem is that the present system is inefficient and costly, and that it is creating absolute agony for many people. I know that the Minister has a great understanding of, and a deep passion for, the subject of mental health, and I urge him to put pressure on the DWP to change the system. We are not asking that people should be excluded completely from work capability tests; we are just asking for the system to be changed.
Norman Lamb
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding me that he, too, had made that point. I knew that someone else had talked about it, but I could not remember who it was. I take his point; I have heard it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) made a thoughtful speech in which he talked about reminiscences. Oh! He has gone! Even though it pains me, as a Norwich City supporter, to talk about Everton, it appears that Everton and even Southport have done some very good work in these areas. My hon. Friend talked about a continuum of mental health. That was a good point, well made. He also mentioned community treatment orders and the need to look at how they are working. I will certainly reflect on that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) made a powerful contribution about the mental health aspects of female genital mutilation, a most horrific experience suffered by so many young girls. I really pay tribute to her for the work that she has done on that issue. The fact that there are 66,000 females in this country who have suffered this assault was an extremely striking point.
The hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) talked about waiting times for access to treatment. He asked if he could gently challenge the Minister—I appreciated that approach. On the mandate for the NHS Commissioning Board, NHS England has been very clear that we expect it to assess the scale of the problem of access, including for IAPT. Other Members have raised the question of whether we are meeting the IAPT programme’s four-week target. We want the NHS Commissioning Board to assess the scale of the problem with a view to setting access standards.
One of the big problems relating to what I regard as the institutional bias against mental health is that on one side of the equation we have the 18-week maximum waiting time for physical health, which is a very powerful political driver of where the money goes, yet we have nothing equivalent for mental health on the other side. That, to me, is a lack of parity of esteem. For people with mental health problems, early access is particularly important to ensure that their condition can be halted, if possible, and the deterioration stopped. The hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green made a good point there, and he also rightly talked about the importance of consistency and continuity of care.
I want to mention four of the most important things that this Government are doing to create the environment and incentives for improving mental health across the system as a whole. The first is the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which creates a “parity of esteem” so that mental and physical health share the same importance, as we have discussed this afternoon. Changing the law is just the start, but it sends a clear signal—that mental health is important, and that the health and care system can and must play a leading role in changing attitudes across society as a whole.
Secondly, there is the mandate the Secretary of State has issued to NHS England. It shows the importance we have ascribed to mental health and makes it clear where improvements are needed. The mandate makes clear our overarching goal—that mental health must have equal priority with physical health across all aspects of NHS work. In particular, we have highlighted the need to close the gap in outcomes between people with mental illness and the population as a whole, as well as the absolute imperative to ensure that people can access the services they need when they need them. Neither of these facets of good mental health treatment is entirely up to scratch at the moment. I think we all recognise that.
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
The Minister is generous in giving way, and he is making some very important points. Would he include within this the importance of access to family therapy both to repair broken relationships and to aid recovery—an issue that Oxford Mind raised with me?
Norman Lamb
Yes, absolutely; I understand the importance of that. Incidentally, I visited children and adolescent services in Oxford and I was very impressed by the work under way there. I am getting a message that I am under some pressure from Mr Deputy Speaker to make some progress—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I may be able to help the Minister there. It is not a question of pressure from me; it is a question of the Backbench Business Committee suggesting that Front-Bench contributions should be up to 15 minutes. If he looked at the clock, he would recognise that he has spoken for more than 20 minutes. He should not suggest that the Chair is interfering; it is the Backbench Business Committee.
Norman Lamb
I am sorry for putting the blame in the wrong place; I take full responsibility; I have tried to be responsive to Members as I have proceeded.
We are working with NHS England to decide how best to measure progress in these areas. Because, as we all know, words are not enough, we have to be certain that the objectives we have set out on paper actually translate into better, more accessible care for those who need it.
Thirdly, I mention the three outcome frameworks: for the NHS, adult social care, and public health. These frameworks will enable us to hold the health and care system to account for achieving what matters most—good outcomes for the people who use services and for the population as a whole. In the NHS outcomes framework, there are four measures that relate specifically to mental health and many others that include mental health just as much as physical health. The other outcomes frameworks contain other measures designed to ensure that we improve well-being and tackle the wider determinants of mental health, and that we provide the best possible care and support to those people with mental health problems who need it.
Finally, I want to mention our continuing commitment to the IAPT programme. Since the programme began, it has treated more than 1 million people with depression and anxiety, and as a result nearly 75,000 people have moved from benefits into work. Nevertheless, we need to do more. We are currently involved in a joint programme with the Department for Work and Pensions, which involves commissioning work to find a way of providing much speedier access to psychological therapies for people with mental health problems who are out of work. It seems crazy that we are spending money on benefits when giving those people access to therapy might help them to recover and return to work.
George Freeman
I am sorry that I was not able to be present earlier. I pay tribute to the Government for the work they are doing, and to the Backbench Business Committee for raising this issue. Does the Minister agree that, on the role of mental health in mainstream health, there is important evidence concerning outcomes and compliance with mainstream medicine? Important work carried out in America by the United States Veterans Association and the American dementia and mental health societies has shown the importance of positive psychology in helping people to recover and play an active role in society.
Norman Lamb
The hon. Gentleman has made some extremely good points.
The Government are implementing a diversion service to ensure that, as far as possible, people are diverted from the criminal justice system and from prison if that is not where they should be. If they are suffering from mental health problems, they should ideally be given treatment rather than being locked up inappropriately in prison.
Personal health budgets are a really good innovation, started by the last Government and continued by this one. Giving people—particularly those with mental health problems—power to determine their own priorities, and giving them some control over the resources available for their treatment, is an incredibly important development, for which I shall continue to proselytise at every opportunity.
In order to avoid any further trouble from the Backbench Business Committee—rather than from your good self, Mr Deputy Speaker—I shall draw my remarks to a close.
Today’s debate allows us to explore what more we can do to improve services for people with mental health problems, but as I said earlier it also allows us to encourage others to follow suit. We all have the same ultimate ambition—to provide excellent services and support for all who need it, when they need it—but if we are to achieve that ambition, all groups need to do their bit. We will not be able to do this alone. However, we can lay the groundwork to ensure that local leaders and local people can develop the excellent mental health care and treatment that can turn our common ambitions into reality.
I thank all Members who have spoken today. I also thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing me to speak beyond my “guideline” time, and to explain what the Government are trying to do to improve access to, and the quality of, mental health treatment. Again, I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam on securing the debate.
I am pleased to be able to count on my parliamentary colleagues to maintain the momentum of discussion of mental health in public forums, and I pay tribute to all who have spoken for their incredibly valuable contributions. I look forward to our third convention.
Paul Burstow
I thank the Backbench Business Committee again for enabling us to have the debate. I also thank those on both Front Benches, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) and the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), and every other Member who has either intervened in the debate or contributed directly.
Today’s debate on mental health, like last year’s, has created and elevated a sense of hope. It has made it clear that there is a real commitment across parties in the House to do better and to do more: to enable people to gain access to the right care, at the right time, in the right place. That means starting early. It means starting in our schools. It means ensuring that when there is a crisis, we have an emergency service that is as good as our physical emergency services. I welcome what the Minister has said about that today.
A number of Members have suggested that this should become an annual debate. Clearly Parliament needs to hold the Government and the NHS Commissioning Board to account on these issues, and it would be good if we could find time every year to see just how much progress has been made.
It has been very interesting for those of us who follow Twitter to see just how many people have been tweeting about the debate. It has already extended well beyond the confines of this place, and that is to the good. I am pleased that so many Members have taken part, and I am very grateful to them. I hope we will eventually reach a place where there is no health without good mental health.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered the matter of mental health.
Road Traffic Offences (Sentencing)
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
First, let me say that it is not my intention to take up the full two hours that are available to us for this debate, but I do want to raise an issue that is very important, in particular to my Sherwood constituency. One of the issues on which I stood for election was resolving the terrible road safety record in Sherwood, particularly around the A614, a stretch of road with which all in the east midlands will be familiar. There have been a lot of fatal accidents on it, with people killed at some of the terrible junctions. That was affecting the local community.
There was one tragic accident in which six people were killed, which resonated particularly strongly with the local community, and it became one of my ambitions to get elected as a Member of Parliament and resolve some of the problems facing the people living around the A614. I have campaigned long and hard to introduce measures to improve junctions. We have been able to improve the Ollerton roundabout and make traffic flows much smoother. We have also been able to put in new traffic lights at the Rose Cottage junction and improve the flows in and out of Edwinstowe.
We have also introduced average speed cameras, which have reduced traffic speeds along the A614 and—I hesitate to say this—stopped the fatal accidents; there has not been another one since they were introduced. Those cameras are not universally welcomed. Some of my constituents do not like them; they complain they delay their journey, so it takes them longer to get from A to B. I recognise the frustration of some drivers travelling up and down our busy roads, but my priority is making sure people are not killed on the roads.
It is important to draw a distinction between a conviction for speeding, for which someone might get a £60 fine and three points on their licence, and more serious incidents for which the perpetrator might be convicted of dangerous or careless driving. There is a conception among the public that it is easy to secure a conviction for speeding, such as driving at 34 mph in a 30 mph zone, but that there is less enthusiasm among the police and in the Crown Prosecution Service to go after the more challenging conviction of dangerous driving, as the burden of evidence is much greater.
I was contacted by a constituent of mine, Louise Stanbrook, who had been to a concert at the Nottingham arena and was crossing the road to walk home when she was knocked over by a driver and quite seriously injured. She suffered a broken collar bone and was knocked unconscious. She also suffered damage to her teeth and spectacles and to her possessions. It was a very serious incident. The perpetrator had a number of previous driving convictions, and was also due to be sentenced for another crime unconnected to this driving offence. The CPS and the police decided it was not in the public interest to pursue the individual for the driving offences he had committed on this occasion, as he was serving an offence unconnected to driving.
It strikes me that the justice system is there for two reasons, the first of which is to make sure that those who commit crimes are rehabilitated and are able to come back into society, having paid their debt. However, the justice system is also there for the victims to see that justice has been done and that when they have been violated in any way the perpetrators of the crime against them make recompense and have to pay a debt to society. That might involve a fine, a custodial sentence or a driving ban, which is another point I wish to deal with a little later.
Louise would say that it is a perception—it is her perception—that people who commit a minor speeding offence, which is still an offence, are prosecuted on a regular basis, as we can agree is only right and fair, but people who commit a much more serious offence such as dangerous driving or careless driving do not suffer the same enthusiasm from the Crown Prosecution Service; there is a reluctance to pursue convictions for such offences because of the amount of evidence that has to be gathered in order to pursue them. That sends the wrong message to society, and the House needs to overcome that and ensure that we turn that tide, so that not only is justice being done, but it is being seen to be done by our constituents and they can have confidence in it. We have to put our hands up and say that many people get caught speeding, but people need to feel that those who commit serious offences are being pursued by the legal system with the same vigour and enthusiasm.
That is very important and it leads me to my second point, which relates to where the justice system is letting us down. It seems wrong that where someone is convicted of a very serious driving offence and is sent to jail, and part of the sentence is a driving ban, they can serve that ban while they are in prison. Given that they cannot drive then anyway because they are being held at Her Majesty’s convenience, it would seem only appropriate that any driving ban that is part of the sentence should be served when they come out of prison and back into society. I would ask the Minister to pass my comments on to the Justice Secretary; he should examine that issue closely on his return, as it is a fundamental part of this debate.
There is another perception that people get enormously frustrated about—my constituents certainly do. Most people work hard, they purchase a car, which can be very expensive, they pay their tax by buying their tax disc and they pay for insurance to drive that car. They also pay for an MOT to make sure it is roadworthy and if they are caught committing a driving offence, they of course pay their fine. However, a section of society does not take out insurance, does not pass a driving test and does not obey the laws. When such people are caught committing a driving misdemeanour, they are often taken to court, prosecuted and then given points on their licence—which they do not possess—and banned from driving, even though they did not possess a driving licence in the first place. Members of the public find it enormously frustrating when they see all the hoops they have to jump through to be a law-abiding citizen and to drive appropriately, yet they perceive that those people who—I hope hon. Members will forgive my Sherwood language—stick two fingers up at the law and ignore it seem to get away with it. That really does need addressing.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one idea worth considering is giving greater flexibility for juries on the upper sentences allowed at the moment? It seems to me that there are certain cases where juries ought to be able to give a higher sentence based on the situation in the case, because, as he rightly says, it is ludicrous how low some sentences are.
Mr Spencer
I am grateful for that intervention. I was just coming to that point.
I suppose the challenge is that the law is in chunks—careless driving, death by careless driving, dangerous driving, death by dangerous driving—and there are very tight boundaries. There is no sliding scale of punishment. I believe that lack of flexibility is what drives the CPS sometimes not to go for the more serious chunk, but to satisfy itself with a conviction lower down the scale because it can be sure of obtaining one. That needs addressing, and the only way to do that is to have a review of what laws are in place and whether those tools need adapting. Within the current law the tools are available to make those serious prosecutions, but at the moment the CPS is not minded to go for those serious convictions, whether that is because of the chunking of the convictions or the lack of a sliding scale. That is what needs addressing.
As a point of interest, the Nottingham Post reported that in Nottinghamshire, 58,373 speeding tickets were issued in 2011-12. That shows that our police force is out there, robustly enforcing speeding offences.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that speed cameras have a bit of a bad reputation? They are almost regarded as a cash machine only to be used by the police. Would he, like me, be encouraged by the increased use of speed awareness courses, which are a restorative way of combating speeding rather than simply going straight for the points and fines, and would he hope that that would be extended across the UK?
Mr Spencer
I would agree with that. We must remember that the purpose of speed cameras is not to catch people; it is not to get cash out of drivers. It is to prevent them from being killed or seriously injured. I get many letters from constituents asking for the police to go into their village—I hesitate to use the words “speed trap” because it gives the wrong impression, but that is what they often ask for. They want the police to enforce speed limits to ensure that people driving through their villages and towns do not break the speed limit, particularly outside primary schools and other local schools. That gives me confidence that we are on the right side of the argument—that our constituents want enforcement of speed limits and want the law to be obeyed. However, they want a balance between serious and minor offences. The perception is that there is not that balance at the moment.
If I may summarise, my No. 1 request is to remove the anomaly of driving bans coinciding with prison sentences. If a person is convicted of an offence, serves time in jail and receives a driving ban, the start of the driving ban should be postponed until their release from prison, so that there is that extra removal from our roads for those who have been convicted of a driving offence. Secondly, I want to encourage the CPS and the police to use all the tools at their disposal. I am sure the Department would be more than happy to receive representations from the CPS or the police if they have reservations about some of those tools. I would encourage the CPS and the police to be more diligent and look at going for more serious convictions if they feel they can gather the evidence to get those convictions. They should not simply lay the burden of keeping up the number of convictions on the minor offences.
There have been some terrible accidents in which people have been injured, and some fairly high-profile ones which reached the media. Bradley Wiggins, our Olympic and Tour de France-winning cyclist, was a victim of a cycling accident in which he was knocked off not far from your constituency, Mr Deputy Speaker. We do not want to be knocking off our potential Olympians, to say the least. That case drives home the fact that people out there, pedestrians and cyclists especially, are at risk of serious injury, and when that tragedy happens, we look to the law to recompense us for that injury and to give us the justice that we deserve.
The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty's Treasury (Mr David Evennett)
I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) on obtaining this afternoon’s debate on the sentencing of people convicted of road traffic offences. I commend him on his thoughtful and considered speech, which I listened to with great interest. I know that he is an assiduous and hard-working Member, serving his constituency and his constituents and raising issues of concern to them.
May I express the apologies of the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), for not being here to respond in person to the debate on behalf of the Government? He is at a conference in Birmingham and asked me to respond on his behalf. I am delighted to be able to do so.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood made clear, driving offences are a very important issue, with potentially very grave consequences when they result in accidents and innocent victims are harmed, injured or killed. I was extremely sorry to learn of the case of his constituent, Louise Stanbrook, a pedestrian who was injured by a dangerous driver.
I should like to highlight the interesting and valuable contributions made by the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) and my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry). My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North (Mr Scott) is in his place and I know that he, too, is concerned about the issues of sentencing and road traffic offences. My late father, Norman Evennett, said to me many years ago when I started to learn to drive, “Remember, a car driven dangerously or badly can be a lethal weapon”—very wise words indeed.
Sentences in individual cases are a matter for the courts to decide, subject to the maximum limits and sentencing guidelines. When deciding what the appropriate sentence within the range should be, the court will consider the seriousness of the offence. This includes both the culpability of the offender and the harm that the offence has caused. The court will also consider any other aggravating or mitigating factors. The law therefore seeks to punish those who cause death or injury on the road in a way that is appropriate to the degree of blame that can be attributed to the driver.
Our framework of driving offences and penalties is kept constantly under review, and the Government have striven to ensure that the framework remains balanced and proportionately addresses the range of unacceptable behaviours which occur on our roads. We will consider what my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood said today and we continue to monitor these issues as a matter of course. Our current law provides a framework of offences to deal with bad driving and dangerous practices that impact on driving at every level. Every offence is extremely serious, irrespective of the consequences.
Jake Berry
On the topic of very serious offences, my hon. Friend will appreciate that the most serious of all driving offences is one in which someone loses their life. He will be aware of the reduced mortality rate when people are travelling at 20 mph rather than 30 mph. Will he join me in congratulating Lancashire county council, which recently made the speed limit on all side streets 20 mph, which is fast enough wherever we live, and will he join me in encouraging Blackburn with Darwen council to take a similar initiative to help save the lives of young people in Darwen?
Mr Evennett
I welcome any measure that helps to save lives. The issue that my hon. Friend raises is a matter for the Department for Transport, not for the Ministry of Justice, but I take on board what he said and congratulate any council that reduces the speed limit, which has a positive result, saving lives and preventing injury.
Fatality, of course, holds a special place in these affairs, which is why particularly robust penalties are available where death is caused by bad driving. Where drivers cause death either by dangerous driving or by careless driving while under the influence of alcohol or drugs, judges can sentence them to a maximum of 14 years in jail. Other measures include an unlimited fine and a minimum two-year driving disqualification. Where death is caused and there is sufficient evidence of gross negligence, drivers can be charged with the offence of manslaughter, which carries a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.
Summary road traffic offences include careless driving, speeding, driving with excess alcohol, driving while disqualified and using a mobile phone while driving, as well as other offences relating to the condition of the vehicle, safety measures such as seat belts and offences relating to non-compliance with, for example, driving direction and traffic lights. Those offences are punishable in some cases by short custodial sentences. Some carry mandatory disqualification. All carry the potential for robust fines and points on an individual’s licence.
Following the 2005 review of road traffic offences, two new offences were created and, since 2008, have been available to prosecutors: causing death by careless driving, and causing death where a driver is unlicensed, disqualified or uninsured. The maximum penalties for those offences are five years and two years respectively. They attract a minimum disqualification period of one year and can be punished by an unlimited fine. In December 2012 the Government introduced a new offence of causing serious injury by dangerous driving in order to fill the gap where bad driving causes very serious injury but sentences were previously limited to two years because only the plain offence of dangerous driving could be charged. The new offence has a maximum penalty of five years.
Therefore, it is apparent that the offences and penalties are kept constantly under review to keep the framework appropriate to changing behaviour on our roads. However, our courts sentence independently, having full regard to the features of each individual case and to guidelines.
Mr Spencer
My hon. Friend is doing a fine job of outlining for the House the current tools available in the tool box. Ministry of Justice figures show that, tragically, the number of motoring deaths remained static between 2002 and 2012. Meanwhile, the number of convictions for dangerous and aggravated offences has come down and the number of convictions for careless driving has gone up, which suggests that those deciding what to prosecute are choosing the lesser option of careless driving. Would he care to comment on those statistics?
Mr Evennett
We are of course aware of those statistics and look at them carefully. We are determined, in the guidelines, to encourage prosecution of the more serious offences, and we are endeavouring to do that. However, I must highlight that it is very difficult for the Ministry of Justice, because it is not our responsibility to do that. On the other hand, we are setting the guidelines and giving the courts the independence and freedom, and we want to ensure that they use the powers they have.
The Sentencing Council sets out guidelines, which the courts must have regard to, advising in greater detail what courts should do in particular types of cases. We give the guidelines and encourage, within the statutory limits Parliament has set, of course. We encourage, but the courts have to make the decisions. The Sentencing Council has issued two relevant sets of guidelines: those on driving offences where death is caused, which were issued in 2008; and the magistrates court sentencing guidelines, including guidelines on summary driving offences, which were updated in 2012. Obviously we constantly look at updating those.
With regard to the relevant treatment of speeding and drink-impaired driving, speeding is punishable by a fine of up to £1,000, or £2,500 when committed on a motorway. The court may disqualify the offender and must impose penalty points. Driving under the influence of alcohol is punishable by a fine of up to £5,000 or up to six months’ imprisonment. The court must disqualify the offender for at least 12 months. Those convicted of serious driving offences face the prospect of lengthy custodial sentences. In 2011, the average custodial sentence length for those convicted of causing death by dangerous driving was over four years. Accident statistics from the Department for Transport suggest that speeding and drink or drug-driving are fairly equally unacceptable in terms of harm caused. In 2011, an estimated 9,990 reported casualties—5% of all road casualties—occurred while the driver was over the legal alcohol limit. The provisional number estimated to have been killed in drink-drive accidents was 280. Exceeding the speed limit was reported as a contributory factor in 5% of all accidents, but these accidents involved 14% of fatalities. Drug impairment was reported as a contributory factor in 644 road casualties.
Generally, Great Britain has a very good road safety record, but we cannot afford to be, and will not be, complacent. Deaths and serious injuries on the roads are a terrible tragedy for those affected, as highlighted in the case mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood. It must of course be welcome that the general trend is for road fatalities and casualties to fall, but every such case is one too many for the victims and their families.
Compared with the period 2005-09, the number killed in 2011 was 32% lower, the number reported killed or seriously injured was 17% lower, and the number of children killed or seriously injured was 19% lower. However, the Government will not be complacent. We will monitor those numbers and do what we can to push them down and to make sure that convictions of those who offend are implemented.
The Government’s vision for road safety remains one in which Britain is a world leader; where local authorities are empowered to take informed decisions about road safety in their area, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) described in his area; where driver and rider training gives learners the skills they need to be safe on our roads, which is vital; and where tough measures are taken against the minority of offenders who deliberately choose to drive dangerously. They are the ones we need to get to, because they are the ones who are causing such distress, danger and injury.
In 2011, colleagues in the Department for Transport published a new strategic framework for road safety that focused on supporting road users who have weak driving skills, or who have displayed a lapse of judgment, to improve their driving through a greater range of educational courses to help deliver safer skills and attitudes, while focusing enforcement resources against those who deliberately decide to undertake antisocial and dangerous driving behaviours that cover all careless and dangerous driving offences. This is the Government’s twin approach to improving road safety. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood will be reassured by that. We are determined to make sure that those who drive dangerously are dealt with appropriately.
Jake Berry
I must admit that I have some experience of the speed awareness course. One of the incentives to get people to go on that course is that by not taking the penalty points, they will not increase the cost of their insurance premium. However, Admiral Insurance has recently asked people to disclose whether they have been on a speed awareness course, and that will potentially increase their premium. Does my hon. Friend share my fear that we will lose this vital driver re-education tool if people start to lose the insurance benefits?
Mr Evennett
I note what my hon. Friend says. I am looking at this in the context of educating people; the insurance situation is beyond my remit. However we manage to deal with it, the whole point is to educate more people to be considerate and better drivers. We should look at every aspect to improve the standard of driving so that we cut down on the incidence of injury and death on the roads.
Mr Spencer
Will the Minister talk to his colleagues in the Home Office to see whether people who are convicted of a driving offence while on holiday could conduct their road awareness training back in their own county to save them driving back to the location of the offence?
Mr Evennett
I will, of course, pass on that suggestion. We work closely with the Home Office and the Department for Transport; one of the many great things about this Government is that the Departments are working closely together. Our Department is working closely with colleagues in other Departments to make sure that the quality of life is improved for all our citizens, and this is one such example.
Since the publication of the strategic framework, the Government have continued to focus on empowering local decision makers, improving driver training and taking a more targeted approach to enforcement. Recent developments include the introduction of legislation on drug-driving to improve enforcement; the launch of a new speed limit circular to improve the flexibility of local authorities in setting the speed limits; and work with the insurance industry to develop policy opportunities to reduce risk in young drivers. That will, of course, include looking at insurance premiums and whether they can come down if people are good drivers and seeking to improve their driving skills. We are concerned to make sure that young drivers in particular have the skills and knowledge to be safe and good drivers. We are also creating a £15 million fund to improve safety for cyclists outside London by tackling dangerous junctions, alongside a £15 million fund for the same purpose in London.
Provisional figures show that Great Britain and the UK remain the leading performers in Europe on road safety. However, as I have said, every road accident that results in injury or fatality is a tragedy for the people concerned and the communities they live in. Our strategy will build on our solid foundations in order to improve our road safety performance even further and to ensure that sentences are appropriate to the offence, which is the issue that my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood has highlighted. The sentence has to be appropriate for the road offence committed, and the Department is focused on doing our best to achieve just that.
I thank my hon. Friend for giving us this opportunity to debate sentencing for people convicted of road traffic offences, which is a very important subject for all our constituencies. I hope that I have set out the action being taken by the Government and I will pass on my hon. Friend’s comments and concerns to the Secretary of State and the relevant Minister. The Department will continue to monitor how to improve things for the benefit of every road user, whether they be a pedestrian, a cyclist or a driver, so that we can cut down on tragic fatalities and injuries and make sure that those who drive dangerously are punished accordingly.
Question put and agreed to.
Ministerial Corrections
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Engagements
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Will the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that the only party in this House offering an in/out referendum is the Conservative party?
The Deputy Prime Minister: I know the hon. Gentleman hates to be reminded of things that he and I have actually done together when we have been on the same side of the argument, but we spent 100 days in the early part of this Parliament passing legislation, opposed by the Labour party, that for the first time ever gives a guarantee in law about when a referendum on Europe will take place—when the rules next change or new things are asked of the United Kingdom within the European Union. The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues in the Conservative party are perfectly free for their own reasons to move the goalposts, but this legislation is in place and the people of Britain have a guarantee about when a referendum will take place, and that is what I suggest we should all go out and promote.
[Official Report, 15 May 2013, Vol. 563, c. 627-28.]
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
The Deputy Prime Minister is a great democrat as well as a Liberal, and I salute him for that. Will he therefore stand by the precise wording in this very fetching Liberal Democrat leaflet that I happened to find on my desk this morning, which says:
“Only a real referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU will let the people decide our country’s future.”
Will he now stand by that solemn pledge to the people of Britain and join us in the Lobby tonight?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I fully stand behind the position that I took then and my party has taken ever since, that when there is a change in the rules and new things are asked of the United Kingdom within the European Union, there should and there will be a referendum. Not only that, we have done better since we issued that leaflet in 2008: we legislated to guarantee that to the British people for the first time in primary legislation just two years ago. We spent 100 days debating that in this House at the time. If my hon. Friend wants to reinvent it all over again and keep picking away at the issue, what will he give up from a fairly crowded Queen’s Speech? Will he tell his constituents that we will not put a cap on social care costs; we will not deliver a single tier pension; we will not pass legislation to have a national insurance contribution cut for employers? I think that we should stick to the priorities of the British people, which are growth and jobs.
[Official Report, 15 May 2013, Vol. 563, c. 635-36.]
Letter of correction from the Deputy Prime Minister:
An error has been identified in the oral answers given to the hon. Members for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray).
The correct answers should have been:
The Deputy Prime Minister: I know the hon. Gentleman hates to be reminded of things that he and I have actually done together when we have been on the same side of the argument, but we spent 100 hours in the early part of this Parliament passing legislation, opposed by the Labour party, that for the first time ever gives a guarantee in law about when a referendum on Europe will take place—when the rules next change or new things are asked of the United Kingdom within the European Union. The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues in the Conservative party are perfectly free for their own reasons to move the goalposts, but this legislation is in place and the people of Britain have a guarantee about when a referendum will take place, and that is what I suggest we should all go out and promote.
The Deputy Prime Minister
I fully stand behind the position that I took then and my party has taken ever since, that when there is a change in the rules and new things are asked of the United Kingdom within the European Union, there should and there will be a referendum. Not only that, we have done better since we issued that leaflet in 2008: we legislated to guarantee that to the British people for the first time in primary legislation just two years ago. We spent 100 hours debating that in this House at the time. If my hon. Friend wants to reinvent it all over again and keep picking away at the issue, what will he give up from a fairly crowded Queen’s Speech? Will he tell his constituents that we will not put a cap on social care costs; we will not deliver a single tier pension; we will not pass legislation to have a national insurance contribution cut for employers? I think that we should stick to the priorities of the British people, which are growth and jobs.
Westminster Hall
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Careers Guidance
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
I am delighted to be here to lead this debate under your august chairmanship, Mr Benton, and to have the opportunity to discuss my Committee’s report. I am also pleased to be joined by so many Committee members and ex-members, and to see that all three main parties are represented in the debate. The reason why we are here is that the ministerial decisions considered in our report will have profound and far-reaching consequences. Young people need good-quality careers guidance if they are to make informed choices about the courses that they take at school and their options when they leave school. That is all the more important now due to the difficult economic backdrop.
Is such good advice typically available? No. It is worth putting on record that the Government inherited a bad situation: a dysfunctional system of careers guidance. In 2009, the Panel on Fair Access to the Professions reported on the low level of satisfaction with the careers guidance work provided by the Connexions service, which is little mourned overall. In 2010, Ofsted criticised inconsistencies in provision.
The Education Act 2011 represented a chance for a fresh start. The Education Committee’s report was prompted by the introduction of the new statutory duty on schools to secure access to independent, impartial careers guidance for pupils in years 9 to 11. The Committee came to the conclusion that the transfer of responsibility to schools was regrettable, as was the way it was done. Our view was prompted not by any nostalgia for the previous arrangements but by concern about how the transfer was implemented. At the time, Ministers had other priorities. They were under great budgetary pressure, and careers guidance lost out. None of the £196 million in funding that the Connexions service received for its careers guidance work—£196 million to provide the signposting that we argue is vital for young people to make the right choices and ensure that the public money that serves their needs is spent in the right way—was passed to schools.
Following the change, a survey by Careers England found that only one in six schools had the same level of investment in careers activities as the year before. That is, one in six maintained what they had. The Minister needs to take that seriously. The survey also found that not a single school had increased its level of investment, even after the Connexions service, however patchy its performance, had been removed from the scene.
Evidence from countries that have transferred responsibility for careers guidance to schools, such as the Netherlands and New Zealand, does not support that approach. In those countries, the schools were at least given funding to supply the service when they were given the duty to do so; nevertheless, the Committee was told that even there, the transfer of the duty had resulted in a significant reduction in both the quality and extent of careers guidance provision in schools. That is why we described the transfer of responsibility as regrettable, much to the Government’s chagrin.
Separately, the OECD has highlighted the limitations of a purely school-based model of careers advice. They include lack of impartiality, weak links with the labour market and inconsistency of provision between schools. That matters, because young people need guidance in order to make good decisions. A recent study by the Education and Employers Taskforce, led by Nick Chambers, underlined the problem. The taskforce surveyed 11,000 13 to 16-year-olds, mapping their job ambitions against the employment market up to 2020. It showed that teenagers have a weak grasp of the availability of certain jobs. For example, 10 times as many youngsters as there are jobs likely to be available were aiming for jobs in the culture, media and sports sector.
I acknowledge the pressing need to deliver spending efficiencies where possible, but this is not a spending efficiency; it is the promotion of spending inefficiency, as we waste money by placing students on the wrong courses. When the Committee visited Bradford college in October last year, I met a young man whose experience typifies the waste of time, money and potential to which poor careers guidance, or the complete lack of it, can lead. He was taking a course to join the uniformed services. He had wasted the previous year on a course that was not right for him and would not have led to a job in the fire service, which he wanted to join. To add insult to injury, this young man, who wanted to be a fireman, found out during the appropriate course that the fire service is now shrinking, and that there was unlikely to be a job for him at the end of his course. The system let that young man down, and it is doing the country no good at all. How did it happen? He did not receive proper guidance about the courses that he needed to realise his dreams, or even guidance about the dreams that he had a chance of realising.
That is just one anecdotal example. When the experience is scaled up, huge amounts of money are being wasted. With youth unemployment at 21% and the CBI currently characterising the transition from school to work as “chaotic”, the policy smacks of false economy.
None the less, the Committee accepts that the new arrangements involving the statutory duty on schools are in place, and being so freshly put on the statute book, are not immediately likely to change. Schools have the duty. If I appear to be giving the new Minister a hard time, I recognise that he only has one foot in the Department for Education, whose performance on the issue has been so woeful. He also has responsibility in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, whose performance has been much better.
The launch of the National Careers Service is a huge boost to careers guidance for adults. It is essential in an integrated and competitive world, and it is re- professionalising careers advice. The Committee was therefore pleased—nay, delighted—that the Government accepted our recommendation that the remit of the National Careers Service should be expanded to enable it to perform a capacity-building and brokerage role for schools.
On the subject of the NCS, I note with regret the recent resignations of Heather Jackson and Professor Tony Watts from the National Careers Council because they believe that the Department for Education has been “escaping its responsibilities” by proposing that the funding provided by BIS for the National Careers Service should be stretched to fill the gaps in services for young people. They observe that the Department for Education has provided the NCS with only £7 million in funding, compared to the £83 million that BIS has provided for adult careers services.
Will the Minister reassure us that the Department for Education is committed to supporting the work of the NCS properly? Will the Department realise the opportunity that the NCS provides to ensure that we have an all- ages, competent, re-professionalised careers service? An opportunity has arisen from the Government policy that established the NCS. An extra £50 million in funding, set against the £56 billion education budget, could make a huge difference and deliver a much more sophisticated and responsive service.
There are some changes that the Committee welcomed. We were pleased by the decision to expand the duty on schools to offer careers guidance down to pupils in year 8, and up to 16 to 18-year-olds in school or college. We think that was logical, and our Committee heard strong evidence for doing it. It might seem an obvious thing to do, but the Government should none the less be congratulated on doing it. That decision was taken during the course of our inquiry. I know that Ministers always—well, mostly—take note of the powerful arguments coming from our Committee, which makes for a much more coherent policy. It is a big win for young people, particularly those about to leave the school system, and I congratulate Ministers.
However, the Committee was disappointed that the Government rejected several of our other recommendations. We advised that each young person should be entitled to at least one face-to-face careers interview with an independent adviser, an opportunity that 98% of schools consider important. We also suggested that schools should be required to publish an annual careers plan setting out information about the careers guidance provided to pupils and the resources allocated to it. Careers plans could form an important part of the new accountability regime for schools. At the moment, schools simply do not see careers advice as a priority. Being obliged to publish their plans would put them under pressure to deliver in that area and not merely to focus on things such as GCSEs, which tend to drive behaviour in secondary schools.
Regrettably, neither of those recommendations has been adopted. Like all organisations, schools are driven by the things on which they are evaluated, and they are not evaluated on careers advice—except during Ofsted’s rare visits—so it gets neglected by head teachers.
We welcome Ofsted’s ongoing thematic review of careers advice and guidance, which is due to report this summer, but Ofsted’s routine inspection framework for schools is simply not designed to make a clear judgment on careers guidance provision, as Ofsted itself acknowledges. Accordingly, we urged Ministers to pursue the development of more sophisticated education destination measures, to make the data analysis more meaningful.
Only yesterday, I questioned the Secretary of State for Education before the Select Committee. He apologised for failing to include destination measures in the Government’s accountability consultation for schools, and he made a commitment to do further work to strengthen the accountability proposals in that way. We support our Ministers’ ambition to expand the time frame of the destination measures and to try to make them a reliable set of data that can be used to hold schools to account—something which, for now, we do not do.
Careers guidance can provide a crucial signpost for rewarding employment. It can help young people—such as the young man I met in Bradford—to make the right choices first time. With the right advice, that young man could have a clear sense of where his opportunities lie. If the fire service was not recruiting, he could explore a job with another branch of the services, such as the Army. He would not waste time repeating a year, and could get a job when he left education. High-quality, independent and impartial advice has a key role to play in helping pupils to make good choices. If the system fails young people, a human and economic cost is incurred, by both the young people and the wider society that risks squandering their talents.
In their response to our report, the Government complained that the Committee
“focuses on the process of planning and providing careers guidance, whereas the Government’s priority is outcomes for young people.”
With respect to Ministers, our so-called process points were about ensuring that young people can access proper careers advice, at a time when five in six schools are cutting back on it. That could help to prevent obvious mistakes. For example, our report highlights the lack of awareness in many schools regarding apprenticeships, despite their being a flagship coalition policy.
Ministers assume that schools will always do the best thing for the children in their care but, in reality, schools will deliver what they are measured on. The system will not deliver when schools are not evaluated on the quality of the careers guidance they provide, and when they are not given funding to supply it. In truth, the Committee is perhaps better focused on outcomes than Ministers who made such a hash of the policy in the DFE.
What is the point of all the education reforms the Government have undertaken, if there is no decent signposting between education and the world of employment? The honourable exception is the new National Careers Service, which needs proper funding if it is to expand its remit and do a good job for the young as well as the old. But if Ministers think that this is about process, I assure them that it is not. It is about our Committee, working on a cross-party basis, recognising that careers services for young people are not up to the job, and identifying what needs to change.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
Mr Benton, I recall that you chaired the very first Westminster Hall debate I ever took part in, when I first arrived here in 2010 and had absolutely no idea what was going on. It is, therefore, a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, when I hope I know a bit more about what is going on—we will see. It is also a pleasure to follow the Chair of the Education Committee, the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), and to welcome him back to Parliament and witness his speedy recovery.
I want to talk today about the Committee’s report, and a little about the Government’s response. In taking evidence from many of those involved in the education of young people, the Committee visited careers services and schools, looking at what good practice was emerging, and identifying where deficiencies were most acute. Most importantly, perhaps, we also spoke to young people themselves about the services they received. The crux of our findings is wrapped up at the start of our report:
“The Government’s decision to transfer responsibility for careers guidance to schools is regrettable.”
We had a lot of discussion in the Committee about using “regrettable”. We could easily have used much stronger language, but we were looking for something that would be helpful to the Government rather than something that would be seen as lecturing.
Secondly, we found that international evidence suggests that a school-based model does not deliver the best provision for young people, and we concluded that the weakness of that model had been compounded by the Government’s failure to transfer any budget to schools with which to support the service. That led, predictably and perhaps inevitably, to a drop in overall provision, with fewer than one in six schools providing anything like a reasonable service.
In its inquiry, the Committee was very realistic about the historical performance of career services and Connexions, and did not see the previous service provided to young people as good or not in need of considerable reform. It was clear to us that the Connexions service had fallen well short of expectations in most areas, with the probable exception of its services for vulnerable children, where I think that the level of provision and service was at least reasonable if not good. It was also clear that the service delivered far from the high expectations that the Government had of it on its creation.
However, the Government’s response has been not to reform the Connexions service but to abolish it altogether, transferring the statutory duty to schools, and not providing any of the £196 million of funding that was previously available for the service. That is leaving schools and pupils high and dry, and it is clear that young people will make less informed decisions and choices about their future education and training as a result. That will have a major, negative and long-term impact on the lives of some young people, and it will be those who do not have access, within their families and family circles, to well-informed professional advice who will be hardest hit and lose out the most.
It is fair to say that we were dismayed by what we found, but we chose our wording carefully. We spent a long time discussing what we wanted from the report. We wanted the Government to recognise that the current situation could not continue, and to take action to improve it. We wanted to agree on language that did not solely focus on the problems or lecture the Government about what was going wrong, but provided an honest analysis of what we found, and offered positive recommendations about how the current situation could be improved. We were particularly disappointed, therefore, by both the tone and content of the Government’s response.
The Government’s response tells us:
“While the Committee’s report does acknowledge the failings of the Connexions service we are disappointed that the Committee describes our decision to transfer responsibility for careers to schools as regrettable.”
We found it regrettable not because of the transfer, or even because it happened against international evidence that suggested it was the model that was least likely to succeed, but because responsibility was transferred with all its limitations but without any funding. It was surely bound to fail, and the failure would be regrettable.
Instead of acknowledging that they might have got it wrong, and considering the Committee’s recommendations for improvement, the Government’s response appears to focus on criticising how the inquiry was carried out, stating that we cited evidence of one survey carried out by the careers sector that suggested a reduction in service. I want to tell the Minister that we based our findings not just on one survey: we listened to a huge amount of evidence from schools, local authorities, careers specialists, employers, sixth-form college representatives, further education colleges, teachers’ representatives and head teachers’ representatives, and we listened to what young people told us about the service they received. If that is not enough, I suggest to the Minister that he look at what is happening in schools now. Careers provision for schoolchildren has largely collapsed.
I was a member of the Education Bill Committee more than two years ago, and we discussed at length what was happening then. The then Minister, the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), at least acknowledged that there were problems, recognised what was happening and promised to look at the matter, but I understand that he was subsequently blocked from doing so by the Secretary of State for Education. That is regrettable. If the Minister is not convinced by our report, I suggest he talk to the people we talked to and come back and tell us that the system works well.
The Government’s response also complained that the Committee chose not to highlight examples of good practice. I disagree. We went to places such as Bradford, and looked at where local authorities and schools were working together, pooling resources and delivering a good service. It was clear, however, that even where there was good practice, they were doing it on very little funding, or by borrowing from Peter to pay Paul—taking money from other parts of the education service to deliver the bones of a careers service for young people.
Mr Graham Stuart
Does the hon. Lady recall that in Bradford, where nearly all the schools signed up, money was taken from each of them, but the bulk of it was still provided by the council? Adding all that up, if I recollect correctly, the service provision of careers guidance—in a place such as Bradford, where the council had made it a priority—was still lower on the ground in schools than it had been.
Pat Glass
I welcome that intervention. I absolutely agree that where we saw good practice, it still fell short of what had previously been provided. I understand that the Government have had to make cuts, but that is happening across the country to a greater extent than in Bradford, where we saw what other authorities can only aspire to.
The Government response criticised the Committee for carrying out the inquiry when the new arrangements had been in place for only one term. They felt strongly that greater consideration could have been given to allowing the new arrangements time to bed in before drawing such firm conclusions. The Government’s arrangements may have been in place for only one term, but the funding has been withdrawn for almost three years. We decided to look at the matter now rather than later, because we had strong evidence that the system was collapsing around young people, who were making less than informed decisions that will affect their whole lives.
I want briefly to consider what has since happened. Heather Jackson and Professor Tony Watts have resigned from the National Careers Council, in which the Government have such high hopes, as did we. The reasons they cited for their resignations are concerns regarding the council’s recommendations to the Minister in early May, and its failure to draw attention to the Education Committee’s report, with its strong recommendations on steps to be taken to address the current crisis in schools, including the urgent need for enhanced accountability and quality assurance. The inquiry was carried out at the right time: had we waited, we would now be taking evidence about an even greater crisis in independent careers advice, not an improving situation.
On the disappearing budget, the Government argued:
“While there was no explicit transfer of resources, when we made the decision to stop the Connexions service, by making savings on that and other centrally driven budgets we were able to prioritise and protect expenditure devolved to schools during this Spending Review period.”
I am sorry, but I say to the Minister that that is smoke and mirrors at best, and it insults the intelligence at worst. To transfer a major statutory duty to schools without any funding, at the same time as local authority budgets were being slashed and schools were having to pay for educational support services that they previously received free, either from local or central Government, and to expect them to deliver a proper service from a frozen or shrinking budget is simply disingenuous.
I have a number of questions that I wanted to put to the Minister, but I am conscious that if I go on much longer, other people may not be able to speak. If I write to him, will he be good enough to respond to those detailed questions?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)
indicated assent.
Pat Glass
Finally, I remind the Minister that in an educational system that is becoming increasingly diverse, the need for good-quality, independent careers advice has never been greater. If it is not available, it will not be the young people who have access to good family networks, whose parents work in the professions and who have good contacts who will most lose out; it will be the young people who do not have those things, and who need good-quality advice—about what they do next for courses and where they go next for jobs—that currently is simply not available.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
It is a pleasure to participate in this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. I think that everyone agrees that top-down careers guidance under the old Connexions-type service did not work effectively. As we have heard, the damning 2010 Ofsted report proved that point. The opportunity for the coalition Government was therefore immense. It was a good opportunity to have a hugely coherent policy, while getting value for money for the taxpayer. The verdict is still out on whether that has been achieved, and we as a Committee look forward to revisiting the new policy to assess its effectiveness and value for money.
I want to highlight the issue of careers guidance becoming a postcode lottery for many students, particularly young people from poorer and deprived backgrounds, because of the removal of a statutory duty on schools to provide work-related learning.
I have personal experience of growing up in a small outback Australian town, based purely around the production of steel, where aspiration among our peers, our parents and the educators tasked with inspiring us was low, not because we all grew up in households that were not loving and caring—in fact, quite the opposite—but because, in those days, our parents quite often did not understand what aspiration was beyond their lot. Top that with teachers who had never done anything apart from being in education, and it was almost a recipe for most of us in our small country town to be destined for much the same.
Of course, 20 years on—okay, 40 years on—some things are very different, and we live in a very different world. However, for young people from backgrounds where aspiration is low, in many cases because people know nothing different, it is vital that when they are away from their family home they are given every opportunity not only to aspire, but to understand aspiration and to have signposting to the steps that they need to take to unlock a world that is enabling.
Many people need to play a role in that journey, not least the family, but I am concerned about what happens when, for whatever reason, parents cannot give that support. As our Committee saw in Bradford, some areas are pooling resources for a coherent policy for all schools, which takes away the postcode lottery. What about schools and areas that do not do that? How do we ensure that each child has free access to support the unlocking of each step of their journey?
I agree that schools have the second biggest role to play after the family, so their role is increased when that support is not available in families. We all remember our inspirational teachers, but I bet we remember more those teachers we hated or who did not inspire us. When the Minister gave evidence to the Committee, he said that teachers come from a variety of backgrounds. Yes, they do, but not enough come from a different career background, so they have very little experience of what the jobs market needs or offers as opportunities for young people.
The fact that almost 1 million young people in this country are NEETs—they are not in education, employment or training—highlights just that point, as does the fact that we herd our young people through university, often with no collaboration between them and the economy or job opportunities.
Only last year, I wrote to several of my secondary head teachers in Calder Valley after attending their A-level awards evenings, to say what an honour it was to attend. Although each celebrated the young people who were going to university, not one of them highlighted apprenticeships or vocational achievements. That is an ethos that I find sadly lacking in many of our schools, and one that perhaps needs direction from Ofsted or, indeed, the Government.
Only yesterday, the Committee heard how even the Government have made a “dog’s breakfast”, to quote the Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), of some of the programmes of study in the curriculum. The proposals seem to take no account of what opportunities are available for young people in the jobs market. I would highlight the proposed design and technology programme of study, which has little regard to the annual 5,000 shortage of engineers in this country.
When the banking crisis hit a few years ago, we discovered that Calder Valley has the third most vulnerable local economy in the UK, based on the potential failure of the financial system, because of Lloyds TSB’s base there. Yet there has been a partnership between that bank and our local college on apprenticeships for only two years, despite the bank’s reliance on more than 6,000 employees from the area. Just now, as we speak, the local college is constructing courses to tie in with the area’s high-end manufacturing base. Although 20% of people in Calder Valley work in manufacturing, only now is there a manufacturing-specific vocational course. Why does it take an MP to drive those things? They should have happened many years ago.
My first job as MP was to open a technology centre in one of my local high schools. It was a £2.2 million centre for construction, catering, computer-aided design, hair and beauty. Not one local business was asked to get involved in the design of the building, and only last year did we see a local business taking over the hairdressing course. That was another huge opportunity missed, sadly letting down our young people.
I understand that the Government have removed the statutory duty around work-related learning to enable schools themselves to decide on what is the best vehicle for young people, but as I have highlighted, we have a huge way to go to change the experience and the ethos of our educators to deliver such a huge aspiration. Sadly, we have missed a huge opportunity to encourage business to play a much bigger role. The countries around the world that do exceedingly well in this area show that a partnership between education, business and family contributes not only to producing high aspirations among their young people but towards their economies as well.
I support our Committee’s recommendations that guidance to schools must be strengthened to require them to provide work-related learning as part of their duty. I also believe that the Government must do much more to encourage business to play a bigger role in that process. A recent briefing from the Federation of Small Businesses suggests that it is eager to help and get involved, but its offer has not been taken up nationally, so we are missing out on a huge opportunity.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Benton, and to follow the hon. Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker), who talks of his steel roots. I represent a steel town, so I hope that a thread of steel runs through this debate, which started so well with the Chair of the Select Committee elegantly setting out his stall. He explained why the Committee described the transfer as having been handled “regrettably” and the fact that the resources were not passed to schools along with the responsibility. I was pleased too to hear my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) express disappointment at the Government’s defensive reaction to the report.
The Minister does not have to be defensive. He has the opportunity today to respond to the concerns that are expressed and stride forward rather than glance backwards. Knowing the Minister as I do, I am sure that that is what he will do at the end of the debate.
The hon. Member for Calder Valley explained very well the need for careers guidance to be seen not only in a national context but in a local one, too, and to be matched to the needs of the local region and local area. For the past year, I have been privileged to serve as chair of the Humber Skills Commission, on behalf of the Humber local enterprise partnership, which has people from large and small businesses from across the region represented on its board.
When I took both written and oral evidence from businesses across the Humber, I heard what they were saying about the challenges in skills that face them. To my surprise, career education and guidance came out as a strong concern; indeed, it is one of the prime areas in our report, which we are finalising at the moment.
Let me pause to pick out the points that the commission highlighted. Interestingly, those points, which come from a regional perspective, accord with what the Select Committee has found nationally. First, it was noted that information, advice and guidance is frequently not impartial or focused enough. Secondly, many young people do not know about the roles that are available; they are just not aware of the jobs and roles that are available either locally or nationally. As the Chair of the Select Committee said, there is a mismatch between what they might be interested in and what jobs are there. Thirdly, it was said that we need more employers involved in mentoring and coaching, but we need an infrastructure to make that happen. If the money has been taken away and the responsibility transferred, how does that happen?
Fourthly, the commission noted that labour market information is insufficient and restricted—a key point made by the Chair of the Select Committee at the start of the debate. Career opportunities need to be sold to young people, so a process is needed by which their eyes are opened. The hon. Member for Calder Valley talked about inspirational teachers, but we could have inspirational careers advisers, too.
The commission also said that parents need to understand the opportunities that are available for their children. It is important that they have access to advice and guidance as well. There is a lack of information with regard to opportunities in the offshore wind industry and the supply chain. Given that there is a big opportunity in such an industry, it was quite a stark moment to realise how little was known about it within the educational system, which needs to be preparing people for the jobs of today and tomorrow and not the jobs of yesterday.
Mr Graham Stuart
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the National Careers Service’s initiative offers a huge opportunity? It is embryonic at the moment, but it is building for adults that kind of local labour market knowledge. Having started to gather that information, why on earth would we not want to leverage that for young people as well? Furthermore, does he agree that if the Government found from the Department for Education not necessarily the kind of money that they were spending on Connexions but a fraction of that and put additional resource into the NCS, they could build on a coalition and the successful policy of the NCS and turn all careers advice for young people in the right direction?
Nic Dakin
The Chair of the Select Committee is prescient, because the last thing the Humber commission found was a mismatch between the standard of support for young people and adults, with adults generally getting a better service. The Chairman is absolutely right and he lays down the challenge to the Minister, but the Minister can be inventive. We have heard one way forward. Another way would be to provide the resources to local enterprise partnerships. The matter could then be taken forward through city deals to allow the LEPs to innovate. The Chairman gives a good way forward, but there are other ways, and I am sure the Minister will be up for taking on board those interesting ideas.
Let me draw attention to the concerns of the Association of Colleges—this is coming from my background as a college principal. There is concern at the moment about the perverse incentives in the current system, which allow new schools to be established even where there is an over-supply of places. When that happens, we create a competitive environment in which schools are trying to maintain their pupil numbers through compulsory education up to 18 years old. That militates against the provision of truly independent information, advice and guidance because such advice might, for example, recommend that a young person remains in the school because that benefits the school but not necessarily the young person. Independence of advice is crucial; otherwise we get the outcomes that have already been described in this debate that are not in the interests of either young people or UK plc because we are wasting talent.
Let me close by quoting the words of Vince Barrett, the immediate past president of the Association for Careers, Education and Guidance who lives in the Humber area. He has spent his whole life in careers education and guidance, working with young people. He said:
“Removing the statutory duty for secondary schools to provide careers education and replacing it with a new duty to provide only careers guidance has resulted in young people having to make decisions about their future without fully understanding the range of opportunities that may be open to them. It’s a bit like being told to choose a pair of shoes without trying them on and hoping they’ll be a perfect fit.”
I hope that this debate today gives the Government an opportunity to step up to the plate for the young people of this country and put in the resource to allow proper, impartial careers education and guidance to be given to every young person in the land, so that they can achieve their potential.
Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair)
Order. Before I call the next speaker, I point out that I hope to start the wind-ups at 2.40 pm by the latest. I ask Members to keep that in mind.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to participate in this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. As all the previous speakers have said, it is a very important debate.
It is also great to see our leader, the Chairman of the Education Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), back again. Obviously, all of us wish him all the best for a swift recovery.
It is good to see the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) gracing the education world once more. We remain a happy if not always entirely united Committee, which is good for democracy. This morning, I was busy telling a conference just what the role of a Select Committee is. There seemed to be some confusion, with people thinking that we are just another adjunct of the Government, but if they came along here they would notice that members of Select Committees do not just simply salute the Government, which is another good aspect of Parliament that we should reflect on and be pleased about.
As the Chairman of the Committee mentioned, at our last meeting we talked about destinations, and the Secretary of State mentioned that he was sorry that he had not covered that issue properly in the accountability world. It is a critical issue and I want to say why it is so important that we know about destinations, and why that has an impact on schools in terms of careers. Obviously, if a school is to be measured by the destinations of its pupils in the future, it will show a great interest in finding the best destinations for its pupils and encouraging them towards those destinations. We need to bear that in mind as a stimulus for schools, particularly secondary schools. In other words, if a school is identified as good because of its record in getting pupils into good jobs or good pathways to further their careers and so on, it will establish the mechanisms that will help it to do that. We should work really hard to ensure that we have a destination measurement system in place.
I say that because whenever I ask companies in my constituency what we can do to help, there are usually three things. First, there are regulations; they are talked about by people in just about every organisation. Then, of course, there is criticism of high street banks, because they do not lend. But the commonest question is, “Where do we recruit from? Where are the skills?” We must start working out how we match the demand for skills with the output of our education system. Doing that is critical, especially when we are attempting to rebalance the economy, because while we are doing it we are effectively recalibrating the kind of skills we need. Therefore, we must ensure that people understand where the best opportunities are, both for themselves and for our economy. Business and education need to engage properly.
I have been having conversations with people from the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, for example, and they make that point forcefully, because they are aware that there is a bit of a void between many schools and businesses. What do we have to do to improve the situation? First, we must send a signal that now that schools have the responsibility for careers guidance, which they will have for some time notwithstanding the discussion that we have already had today about resources, we must make sure that schools are actually going out to engage with businesses. Governing bodies will have a role, and head teachers have to accept that it is part of their responsibility. It is absolutely right that Ofsted should consider how schools deal with those challenges, and measure the performance of schools and comment on it as part of the inspection package.
Of course, business has to engage with schools as well; there must be two-way traffic. Businesses must communicate with schools, because it is no use their sitting on the sidelines and saying they wish that this or that would happen; they must ensure that they influence the schools. Academies, of course, are more autonomous, so they should be more responsive and more open to contributions from the business world, and certainly from local businesses.
That is an issue we must focus on and the hon. Member for Scunthorpe—
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I was enjoying what the hon. Gentleman said, up to that point, but will he talk about resource? I still visit many schools and they would love to do the things that he has just been articulating, but schools are busy and strapped for cash and resources. When I chaired the Education Committee, the two things that we said a school needed were a person trained to be a careers adviser—it does not come from Buggins—and the resource to get out of the classroom to meet businesses. Does he not agree that resources are crucial?
Neil Carmichael
I will just finish my response to the point that the hon. Member for Scunthorpe made. He quite rightly said that local enterprise partnerships should play a role. They should, and we need to see an enhanced role for them. That would be a useful tool to encourage dialogue.
As for resources, of course everybody accepts that we do not have a bottomless pit. Having more resources would be better, but we must work within the framework we have. Businesses should engage with schools from self-interest, and we need to make that point more. I tried to provide some context by pointing out that, in some cases, businesses are concerned about where they are going to recruit.
In my constituency, I have a festival of engineering and manufacturing. I do so for two reasons. First, one in every five jobs in my constituency is connected with engineering and manufacturing; it is a big proportion, which shows we have critical mass. Secondly, I am aware that there ought to be more dialogue between medium-sized firms and schools, so I provide a platform for that dialogue to happen. We organise events, for example constructing electric cars, and various projects involving batteries, computers and so forth. Children come into businesses and find out what it is like to see a business, and business people go into schools and see what the situation is there. We had the festival last year; it was incredibly successful and that is why we are doing it again this year.
We want to see more such initiatives; it is all very well sitting around and saying, “This is what we need to do”, but we have to get on and do it. My festival is a good example. It is not something that everyone would necessarily want to copy, but people may want to consider the messages that it sends out and the mechanisms that it uses.
It is absolutely right that we get businesses into schools. The motivator could well be the destination measurements, and it is really important that teachers learn more about the place of work. That is something else that the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development talked to me about, and I intend to expand that dialogue to see exactly what else we can learn about the way forward.
I finish by discussing economic competitiveness, because as a country we have to be more competitive and make more use of the European Union. I do not want to go through the arguments that we had in the House yesterday, but in my contribution to the economic growth debate, I made a point about the role of the Mittelstand type of companies in Germany. They have linkages with their local community, knowledge of and involvement in local schools, capacity to plan ahead and an interest in ensuring that they get the right supply of skills into their firms, as needed, largely on the basis of knowing what their requirements are and having the contacts to ensure that they can be fulfilled. We need to arrive at such a situation. It requires not resources and bureaucracy but a change of culture, in which schools and businesses start working together to ensure that we have the right skill sets and the right environment for pupils and students to choose careers that suit them and contribute to the rebalancing of our economy and produce more economic growth.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
Mr Benton, it is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship in this important debate. I, too, welcome our Chair, the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), back to his role in the House.
I have no doubt about the importance to our country of a well-functioning and fit-for-purpose careers service for young people, although the transfer of responsibility to individual schools has resulted in mixed provision. I intend to concentrate on resources, quality and the need for a professional service.
During the evidence sessions on the Government’s reforms to the service, the Education Committee heard from many expert witnesses that the service was going downhill. There seemed to be little disagreement among them that the service has suffered since the changes took effect; things are going in the wrong direction and youngsters are the ones losing out. The subsequent report outlined compelling evidence that the service has begun to, and is likely to, continue degrading.
In written and oral evidence, we found ongoing concerns about the quality, independence, impartiality and availability of careers guidance. We also heard numerous concerns about an emerging postcode lottery of provision, with some schools and local authorities making a success of the reforms and others sometimes lacking the resources, expertise and perhaps even the will to do the same. One thing that stood out was the observation that effective guidance services will only support the complexity of needs if they are appropriately resourced and structured to do so. Although the Committee raised concerns, the Government have so far failed to address major funding issues in the careers service or the crisis facing the provision of careers advice in schools.
The funding provided for the careers guidance element of the former Connexions service totalled some £196 million, as the Committee Chair and other hon. Members outlined. Responsibility for providing careers guidance was transferred to schools as part of the Education Act 2011, but as has already been said, none of that funding was transferred with it. In consolation, if it is any consolation at all, the Department for Education funds the National Careers Service, for services for young people, to the tune of a paltry £7 million for a helpline, which we found that many young people do not even appear to know exists. I should like to know where all the cash has gone.
The staff need to be in possession of the requisite skills and knowledge to meet the needs of our young people. I remember my careers chat with Mr Harding, the deputy head teacher of Branksome School in Darlington, when I was 15. I thought I should like to be an engineer or maybe something else. “Okay”, he said. “Five O-levels, including maths and English for you”, and I was out the door. There was no real discussion, no exploration of my skills and no help. Perhaps if he had considered how incompetent I was with a piece of wood or metal, he might have been able to say, “Engineering is not for you, but you’re not so bad at English, you know. Maybe you should think about something along those lines.” The fact that I ended up as a journalist and politician probably speaks for itself.
Sadly, many young people today face the same level of support that I had, and it is simply not good enough. Some may be doing all right, but the evidence suggests that most certainly are not. My trade union, Unison, which has seen the number of members working in the careers service collapse, is worried for our young people and reminds us:
“The absence of regulatory rigour and safeguards within the new legislation and the cuts the service has faced have led to a postcode lottery on the type and level of careers advice available.”
I ask the Minister to consider doing more to promote consistency in the offer to young people, through a greater degree of central guidance to assist schools to adopt a consistent approach. That might arrest the slide into a full-blown postcode lottery that we are witnessing. I hope that the Minister will at least agree that our children deserve better than a postcode lottery.
As the quality of service slips, so too does the range of knowledge about potential career paths available to children. As the director of the Education and Employers Taskforce says,
“far too many young people are having to make vital and incredibly important decisions about their futures without enough access to good information.”
That is a worrying observation. The Government seem to have taken what is widely considered to have been an imperfect system and put an inferior one in its place. I am pleased that our Education Committee did not hold back in its criticism. In view of that, I find the Government’s response to our report puzzling. It is one thing for an Opposition party’s criticism to elicit a complacent response, but quite another for a Committee chaired by a Conservative MP, with a majority of Government MPs, to provoke such a tepid, lethargic reaction.
As a former chair of the Connexions service in the Tees valley, I know that Connexions was not perfect and that performance was better in some areas than others, with provision often concentrated on those with the greatest needs at the expense of the general school population, but at least we had professionals with knowledge engaged with our young people. Their numbers have been devastated and now they are simply not available in most schools. The Government’s response to our report seems to contain little appreciation of the negative impact the reforms have had on young people seeking to enter the labour market. Some of those who took part in our inquiry must wonder why they bothered, when it appears to have made so little difference as far as the Government are concerned.
We are told that we should offer an opportunity for the changes based on school-based provision to “bed in and evolve”, but the changes have been in place for long enough to see which way the wind is blowing. If the early signs are ominous, instead of allowing a pattern of failure and service degradation to set in, the Education Secretary and the Minister should see what steps they can take easily to arrest the decline. For example, the Select Committee report suggested that all schools should publish and review their careers plan each year, but we are told that this would represent
“the kind of bureaucracy that we have tried so hard to remove.”
Quite aside from the staggering amount of bureaucracy that the Education Secretary’s top-down reorganisation of English schools has brought to bear across the system, I do not think that asking schools to report on the kind of service they are providing represents bureaucracy that is worth removing.
Although I have a different vision of education and schools policy from the Secretary of State, I share with him a desire to see the reforms work, now that they are in place. The Education Committee provided a simple way of improving the system. It is mystifying why the Government would try to remove any ability for parents, representatives and the public to know what kind of provision is in place. I urge the Minister to reconsider that decision or, at the very least, to lay out in far greater detail why it was taken.
Not everybody agrees with me, but I urge a greater role for local authorities in the new system. It is logical that those institutions play a co-ordinating role to facilitate a flow of information about best practice, new ideas and resources. Bradford is one of the better examples. The Government should actively promote the schools and local authorities that do well, although I acknowledge, as have other hon. Members, that local authority resources are much squeezed these days, particularly in the north.
Research published in July 2011 revealed that of 144 local authorities only 15 would maintain what the researchers termed a “substantial service”. In six London boroughs, all the Connexions careers service offices have been closed. In Hull, the number of careers advisers has been reduced from 81 to 18. In other authorities careers staff have been merged into generic youth work. The Government’s attempts to simplify the system have led to confusion about the correct roles for members of staff, and resultant confusion about who is responsible for what. That is why the Government’s response is so disappointing. It is said that the Government want to wait and see what Ofsted says in the summer, once its review of careers guidance surfaces, but the Committee consulted Ofsted and found that the current inspection framework was
“not a credible accountability check on the provision of careers guidance by individual schools.”
A good quality, well-resourced careers service is one of the few levers that the Government have at their disposal to do something about youth unemployment. In my Stockton North constituency, youth unemployment stands at more than 1,000, and nationally it is around 1 million. If the Education Department is serious about ensuring that young people have a chance when they leave school, it needs to ensure that the careers system is up to scratch. The Committee realised that, the Labour party realises it, and campaign groups recognise it, but it appears to have passed the Government by. As my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) said, the response to our report may be disappointing, but we now have a new Minister who will, I hope, chuck the earlier response in the bin and respond by taking the actions that employers, educationalists and, most important, our young people need him to take for their future.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
I am very happy to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Benton, and I am also very happy that the Chairman of the Education Committee, the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), is back. Like others, I wish him well for a complete recovery.
I thank the Education Committee for its report. I am not on the Committee, as colleagues know, but I pay tribute to all its members of all three parties, including my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward), who cannot be with us today. I am glad that the Committee was able to go to Bradford.
I have been a Member of Parliament for quite a while, and I came here with several clear views about the careers service. First, the careers service was patchy—Connexions had mixed success in different parts of the country. Secondly, the careers service was clearly not doing enough in my south London constituency to give young people the advice, information and guidance that they needed to be able best to maximise opportunities. Thirdly, that was probably the case across the country, too.
After the debates on higher education tuition fees, the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister asked me to do a bit of work in the first six months of 2011 to consider access to further and higher education in England. I went to Merseyside, the west and east midlands, Cornwall, Hampshire and Kent, and I talked to people in London. I went to schools, colleges and universities. I spoke to people outside the school, college and university systems, and I spoke to parents, teachers and so on. I presented my report in July 2011.
I think that this is the first time I have quoted myself in a debate, for which I apologise, but I was told some very clear things. I was told almost universally by the young people I met that the careers advice, information and guidance that they received was not up to standard. Across all those places—from the most remote, rural communities to the most urban, deprived communities and the most affluent, home counties communities—people said, “We are not getting the careers service we need.” I was therefore fairly robust in my recommendations to the Government. The document is available for people to look at, and I think it is still on the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills or Cabinet Office website.
Recommendation 3 states:
“At the age of 13 and 14 (in English schools year nine), every student should have made available to them information on all future pathways through education to employment, including clear information about which types of careers different educational choices can lead to.”
That point is then amplified.
Recommendation 4 states:
“The government should act urgently to guarantee face to face careers advice for all young people in schools. Government should also guarantee careers information, advice and guidance up to 17 and then 18 in line with the increase in the compulsory schooling age.”
Recommendation 5 states:
“The government should urgently publish a plan of how it intends to maintain the expertise of current careers professionals between the closures of local authority careers services…and the beginning of the all age-careers service”.
Lastly, recommendation 6 states:
“All schools should have events for parents and carers dedicated to careers and further and higher education”.
That recommendation would bring people together, and it makes the point that parents and carers often also need to be educated in the world of careers, because, as the hon. Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker) said, parents naturally come with their own prejudices and historical recollections, and they do not always understand either that the world has changed or that the technology and processes of getting a job have changed, as they certainly have. It is better that people have their parents, family, peer group, brothers and sisters on board with them in the process, rather than leaving them behind thinking that they cannot benefit from the process.
A couple of things have since happened. In October 2012, my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) introduced a private Member’s Bill on careers advice in schools. The Select Committee published its first report and then its robust second report.
I will concentrate on the issue that most exercised me and colleagues in both Houses during the passage of the Education Act 2011, on which we had to fight like fury to get the Government to agree that schools should have any duty to provide a face-to-face careers service to anyone. Eventually, mainly as a result of pressure in the Lords, concessions were made so that children on free school meals or with special needs would be guaranteed face-to-face careers advice, but the rest would not.
The Select Committee has clearly recommended that there should be at least one opportunity for face-to-face careers advice. I will pause for a second, because the Government and particularly the Secretary of State for Education—this relates to the Department for Education, not the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills—resisted and held out against that recommendation, and he is wrong. That is not helpful.
First—again, this point was made by the hon. Member for Calder Valley—careers advice does not mean only trying to big up opportunities for further or higher education, particularly the latter; it also means considering alternatives such as apprenticeships or training and ensuring that young people understand that the route through life might start by going off into work from school and then back into training or apprenticeships. It may later go into further or higher education qualifications, or it may go different ways. I have family members who have done just that. They have effectively gone from school into the services and then into work. My younger brother then went to university and had a very successful academic and professional career. Other people do the same. We must ensure that schools big up destinations other than just higher and further education qualifications. Apprenticeships and training should be equally valid as places to go.
Secondly, people need to think laterally these days. Someone sitting in the county I was born in, Cheshire, or the county we moved to, Herefordshire, or the constituency I represent in south London has a predetermined view of things, depending on their circumstances, their location and the local industries and occupations. It is not sufficient to be told how to write a CV and to think that sending it, possibly by e-mail, will mean that it will be looked at, picked up and the writer’s brilliance will be discovered.
The important point therefore is that the process of self-presentation and maintaining up-to-date information requires personal contact. It is not enough to think that going on to the web or phoning someone will give people the support, confidence, mentoring and back-up that they need. I am not talking about children with parents who have no academic qualifications; children with two teacher parents, for example, may also need someone who is not their parent to help them in their route of deciding what to do.
My plea is that the Government reconsider their view that there should not be face-to-face careers advice, information and guidance for everyone. The Select Committee recommends that that should happen once, but as much advice as is needed should be given. I am certain that it would make a significant difference if there were well qualified experts to support young people as they navigate this and sometimes to help them as they fall back and realise—the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness gave such an example in his introduction—that a career in the fire service, police service or armed services, or whatever it might be, may not be an option because they are not recruiting but shedding people. Sometimes, people have to confront reality and think again.
Nic Dakin
The right hon. Gentleman is spelling out his case very well. From a lifetime of working with young people, I know that, although they might be technically able, they are unconfident when navigating such choices. However able they are, they need face-to-face support to work through what are very difficult questions for any of us.
Simon Hughes
I absolutely agree, and I respect the hon. Gentleman’s expertise on the matter.
I have two final points. First, if someone wants to go into the construction industry to be a plumber or builder, actually knowing the best way to go from their secondary school to get the relevant qualification, knowing which college is the best place to do an FE course and knowing which company might give them the best learning is not something that they will necessarily pick up accurately just because their uncle happens to work for a building firm or their elder brother happens to be self-employed and has his own firm. It does not happen like that. People need to have wider experience.
This point may be controversial, but I am clear about it. We are having a big debate in this country on immigration. It is abundantly clear to me that people from outside this country are often employed because they are better qualified. When there is competition, as in Lincolnshire or elsewhere, between a Lithuanian or Polish immigrant and someone from Boston, for example, offering their skills, we are failing all those young people who lose out because they are just not as competent or qualified—they have not got to the same place as the immigrant. If we are to show that we are providing the opportunities for our young people to get the jobs in this country and abroad that we want them to have, we must give them the careers advice to set them on the route to do that.
We cannot complain when we discover that, at the end of the day, they lose out because they have been unsupported. I am dealing with constituents who are now in their 20s and 30s, and I can testify to the fact that if people do not get the right support, it is doubly difficult for them when they are 21, 25, 29, 32 and 35 to get into the jobs market. If they did not have the support and encouragement to be at work when they were 16, 17, 18 and 21, it is really difficult later, and we set back a generation. So I ask the Minister, who is a new Minister and as far as I know a good thing, to persuade his boss in the Department for Education to rethink, to drop the ideology and the right-wing philosophy and to pick up on the evidence and support careers guidance for everyone in every single school in England.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Benton.
What brings us together in the Chamber today is a collective sense that we could probably have had better careers advice ourselves, and that we care passionately about young people’s careers advice in the future. That is why the Labour party welcomes the Select Committee report and, in particular, the devastating third paragraph of the summary, which announced that the “decision to transfer responsibility” was “regrettable”, going on to state that the Committee had
“concerns about the consistency, quality, independence and impartiality of careers guidance now being offered to young people.”
Labour acknowledges that careers guidance for young people was in need of reform, which is why the previous Labour Government were committed to a review of the IAG—information, advice and guidance—strategy in 2011, following our response to Alan Milburn’s report. The Committee has produced a typically thoughtful and comprehensive contribution to an important issue. Transferring the statutory duty for careers guidance to schools is a radical and untested departure in the history of careers guidance in the United Kingdom, deserving of close scrutiny. Furthermore, the report arrives at a moment of crisis. That young people in this country are more likely than the elderly to be unemployed is a shocking situation and the exact opposite of what is happening in, for example, Germany. Youth unemployment in this country remains around 1 million, so this is exactly not the time to undermine effective careers advice. The Labour party, however, will try to approach the debate in a bipartisan spirit. Young people are not well served by tit-for-tat exchanges or by apportioning blame. The truth is that youth unemployment and social mobility are deep-seated challenges. We look to work with the Select Committee and the Government where possible.
The previous Labour Government stated:
“High-quality information, advice and guidance is crucial in helping young people to develop ambitious but achievable plans, which are more likely to lead to positive outcomes.”
That has also been recognised by a wide range of professional bodies, from the CBI to the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development. It is pleasing that the Government recognise the Committee’s findings that good-quality, independent careers guidance is “essential” for all young people. However, we believe that the Government could be doing more to drive aspiration, boost our competitiveness and stop exactly the kind of waste pointed out by the Chair of the Select Committee, when he mentioned the young man seeking to forge a career in the fire brigade.
We are pleased that the Minister has belatedly persuaded his colleagues of the importance of a technical baccalaureate, although it remains disappointing that, unlike Labour policy, which it attempts to imitate, it does not include a commitment to a proper work experience placement or a course structure developed by business. One of the strongest criticisms made by the Committee report is the removal of a statutory duty to provide careers education and work-related learning. In the public consultation on the Wolf report, nearly 89% of respondents did not believe that the statutory duty should be removed. With employers routinely complaining —as the hon. Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker) explained—about the lack of workplace knowledge and poor employability of young people, the Government must consider whether scrapping work experience is a good idea. It would not be so bad if different routes to employability, vocational education and apprenticeships were well advertised by the careers services under the new regime, but, as both Government and Opposition Members have explained, that is simply not the case.
I strongly urge the Government, therefore, to respond with greater clarity than they did to the Select Committee report on how they will ensure that young people are made aware of the full range of post-16 options available in their local area, as my hon. Friends have discussed, including apprenticeships. Pupils need an independent and impartial system of advice. The problem is an element of over-concentration by the Government on the 16.4% of state school pupils who achieved EBacc results. We all want as much academic achievement as possible in our schools; we all want that excellence and rigour, but we also need to be aware of different learning and career pathways. That is the difficult situation that the Minister faces. His colleagues do not seem to share his concern for rigorous vocational training.
Unfortunately, the sloppy approach to evidence appears to have seeped into the reforms as well. The international evidence for the statutory transfer of the careers service to schools is, at best, thin on the ground. The Select Committee is clear about that, and it cites the OECD, which has highlighted the limitations of the school-based model—“lack of impartiality, inconsistency” and, perhaps most damaging, “weak links” with the labour market—also emphasised by hon. Members. Labour is not dogmatic on the location of the statutory duty. Quality of delivery is what counts, not who holds the responsibility. We agree with the Committee’s findings that further upheaval and uncertainty, after everything schools have been through, might have a detrimental impact upon young people at a difficult time.
In the current fiscal climate, we also agree with the Committee that additional direct funding to schools is unlikely. Schools need to make careers guidance a priority within their budgets. The Chair of the Select Committee’s figures about five in six not providing the same level of allocation are terrifying. As the deputy Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass), pointed out in her speech, that does not mean that the Government should present the withdrawal of £200 million of funding as consequence free. In his evidence, the Minister suggested that the Government have protected school spending, but schools are having to invest about £25,000 each for something that was previously allocated funding, and we can see from the report that levels of provision have simply fallen off a cliff.
All that comes at a difficult time. Teaching morale is at an all-time low and, for better or worse, the change comes when our education system faces enormous structural upheaval and fragmentation. The Government are asking schools to take on a commissioning role, but if we have learnt nothing else over the past 30 years of public policy, it is that commissioning services is not easy and requires a complex set of skills and capabilities. Extraordinary demands are being placed on our schools, and the simple question that the Minister must answer is whether his Government are doing enough to provide guidance and support and to disseminate best practice. The Committee report seems clear that the answer is no. In the words of Professor Tony Watts of Careers England, it is
“not delegation to schools; it is abdication.”
We need careers services with strong links to employers, good local labour market intelligence, impartial advice on different routes and a robust system of accountability. We should not stifle innovation with over-prescription and bureaucracy, but we must not abdicate responsibility to provide clear and rigorous standards to drive performance. Like the Chair of the Committee, what most concerns me about the report is the accountability dimension. The report merely reveals the widespread sector concern, echoed by the Government’s social mobility adviser, that the accountability measures for the new regime are nowhere near robust enough. There is now near unanimous support for an enhanced role for Ofsted, and I am pleased to note that Sir Michael Wilshaw told the Committee that there is a need to
“recalibrate the schools framework to focus more on careers advice.”
We have Ofsted’s thematic review in the summer and the National Careers Council report this month, but I remain concerned that they will not result in delivering the robust accountability that we need.
I started by saying that I would approach the debate in a non-partisan way, and I am pleased to put on record our support for the Government’s extension of the statutory duty to year 8s and to 16 to 18-year-olds in college. There is a case for going further.
I welcome the Minister’s enthusiasm for increasing employer participation in schools and the commitment to develop destination measures further, although I note the Education Secretary’s failings on that. Finally, I note the Committee’s interesting recommendations on the potential for a brokerage role for the National Careers Service, which has rightly been criticised for not doing enough for young people. The Labour party will look at that recommendation as part of its ongoing policy review, and the One Nation Skills Taskforce, chaired by Professor Chris Husband, which we should implement in about two years.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)
It is a pleasure, Mr Benton, to serve under your chairmanship. I will try to respond to all the points that have been raised, but if there is not enough time to respond to specific points, I will be happy to do so in detail in correspondence, as with the Committee’s deputy Chair.
I value the cross-party approach to the debate and the Opposition Front-Bench Member’s largely non-partisan approach. I invite him to the Department to give him a teach-in on some of the things we are doing on work experience because I agree that it is vital, and we are doing a huge amount to strengthen it. What matters is real work experience, not pretend work experience. The change is important and I am sure he will agree when he understands what is happening. I welcome him to his first Westminster Hall debate on the Front Bench.
During the debate, I noted a huge number of areas of agreement, not least on the value and importance of information, advice and guidance, but also motivation, inspiration and education in a world that young people can reach through their education and their choices of qualification. Several times, the motivating fact in my job was brought up. Youth unemployment is falling and this week, thankfully, the figures showed a further fall, but it is far, far too high. At the same time we have a skills shortage. To fill that skills shortage, we must make sure that the young people of this country have not only the training and qualifications, but the skills to get a job and hold it down. That is the motivation behind the massive increase in apprenticeships and the introduction of traineeships, which will start in the summer. There is agreement about the value and importance of that.
There is also agreement that Connexions failed badly, and that was mentioned throughout the Chamber, but that must be matched with recognition that if the activity that occurred under Connexions, which was poor value for money, has reduced, it is not the same as the amount of careers advice falling. The two are separate, and the reason for the cross-party, cross-sector agreement that Connexions failed is that it was poor value for money.
Alex Cunningham
I am interested in professional help. We have seen the number of professionals in the careers service collapse throughout the country. Does that not worry the Minister when he talks about the agenda for informing young people properly?
Matthew Hancock
I will come to that. The question is what we can do to provide information, advice, guidance and, much more broadly, motivation and inspiration. Times have changed since the Connexions service was opened up. Information is widely available, but it is obvious that information on the web is not enough; it is about the individual connection between human beings, with young people being inspired, usually by a practitioner who is doing something with their life. Young people look at them and say, “That’s the sort of thing I want to do.” Then the question is how to ensure that they are steered into the path of being able to do it.
Aspiration must be encouraged, but realistically. There was a time when I wanted to be an astronaut, and I am glad I was told that for someone who is British the chances of becoming an astronaut are close to zero, so I ended up in my second choice.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Elizabeth Truss)
My hon. Friend should have tried harder.
Matthew Hancock
My hon. Friend says I should have tried harder, but it is about balance. We must be aspirational, but realistic and helpful.
The funding issue has been raised many times. Times are, of course, tight for funding, but the central point is that the legal duty to secure independent and impartial advice in schools needs to be delivered from the school budget. Schools have a whole budget to deliver this, not just the £7 million that the Department for Education put into the National Careers Service. Frankly, we must be much more ambitious and look forward not back. I have taken up the mantle that was laid down. We understand what happened. There has been a big change and the question now is how that statutory duty can be properly enforced and put in place as powerfully and effectively as possible.
Of course, autonomy and accountability matter. People say that schools will not do this, but I also heard the evidence that 98% of schools say that it is very important. We must hold schools to account so that they deliver, and that can be done through Ofsted. Michael Wilshaw of Ofsted says that from September it will give priority to inspection of career advice, and the destination data that we are working extremely hard to expand.
Matthew Hancock
The new destination data that were introduced this summer included for the first time measurement of people who go to university and also those who go into apprenticeships and other jobs. We must expand that. Last year was the first year, and there will be more years with a richer dataset in future. We must hold schools to account for that. As the hon. Lady says, what gets measured gets done, so we must measure destinations and outcomes—where children actually get to.
There is best practice. The careers academies provide inspirational best practice, including information and advice, as well as mentoring from people who work in industry. They go with pupils from a young age all the way through university or an apprenticeship and into work, and continue to mentor over a long period. Other examples of where things are working well include Business in the Community, Business Class and Speakers for Schools. As the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) said, there is some excellent provision.
The need for closer collaboration between employers and schools is vital to tackle the motivating factor. Someone reported an offer of support from the Federation of Small Businesses, and I hope that the FSB will contact me because I would very much like to take forward its offer. The issue is about ensuring that all children have access to the sort of networks that middle-class children often take for granted. Most jobs are filled not through advertising, but through networks, and it is vital to make sure that everyone has the same access to the networks that the middle classes often take for granted.
What must we do? First, enterprise, work and getting ready for employment, as well as further academic study, must be central to a school’s mission. Parents, employers and schools are vital for that. Labour market information through local enterprise partnerships, city deals and the National Careers Service is also vital and we have been very clear about the role of LEPs in providing labour market information. The bridge between employers and the education system, who often speak different languages, must be based on stronger relationships, and it is our responsibility to ensure that they happen.
Centrally and most importantly, the issue is not just about skills or careers advice. It is about guidance, inspiration, mentoring and character building—building self-reliance, lateral thinking, motivation and grit among our children to ensure that they can take on the challenges that they will face throughout their lives so that they can propel themselves through their careers because they are inspired to succeed. Let us take the discussion forward and be ambitious in our goals, and not merely try to recreate failed institutions of the past.
Educating Engineers
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
It is the first time I have served under your chairmanship, Mr Walker, so I welcome the opportunity to do so by addressing the Chamber on the Select Committee on Science and Technology’s report, “Educating tomorrow’s engineers: the impact of Government reforms on 14–19 education”. The Committee produced the report unanimously back in February. We dealt with the impacts of the English baccalaureate, university technical colleges and changes to the engineering diploma. I will also comment on the Government’s response to our report, and as we are in education mode, I will be generous and offer the Minister seven out of 10 for that response. It is a good score—I never got those sorts of marks in my classes.
Engineering is crucial to the economy. It has been estimated that the engineering work force produces a fifth of our GDP and half of UK exports. In 2010, the sector generated 25% of UK turnover—that is three times the size of the financial services sector. It is not just the economy that benefits from engineering; we also need to look at health care, energy, transport, construction, defence and many other sectors.
Despite engineering’s importance, the UK is facing a shortfall in the numbers and quality of engineers. About 820,000 science, engineering and technology professionals will be required by 2020, with 80% of those required in engineering. The engineering work force is ageing, and we will need around 82,000 engineers and technicians just to deal with the requirements up to 2016. That demand will not just be met by university graduates; we only produce 23,000 engineering graduates a year, and not all of them stay in engineering. The loss is a particular concern when it comes to women. Only 12% of engineering students in higher education are women, and it gets worse.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
One of the most inspiring sessions that we did during the Committee’s inquiry involved three young ladies who came to speak to us. There was Kirsty, who is currently an apprentice at National Grid, Georgie, who was studying her A-levels, and Georgia, who was doing her GCSEs. They told us that a couple of things that were very important in getting ladies into engineering were having role models and having experience of engineering. Will the hon. Gentleman give us his thoughts on that?
Andrew Miller
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. National Grid, in its briefing notes for the debate, quotes Kirsty, who said:
“I decided to do an apprenticeship as I could get qualifications and learn a trade at the same time; to do a job that means something; to be able to go into work in the morning and leave knowing I have made a difference to something.”
That young woman was an inspiring witness, as was a young lady from Novartis who spoke to the Cogent awards last year. She explained how she did a higher apprenticeship and was able to say cheerfully, at the end of it, that not only is she ahead of her peer group for her age, but she has a degree, and what is more, she does not have a student debt. She has done rather well. The hon. Gentleman is spot on in terms of the importance of women.
In the Queen’s Speech debate, I spoke about the importance of breaking the artificial barrier between vocational and academic qualifications. In the eyes of far too many people, there is a brick wall between vocational and academic. It is a continuum, and we need to support that continuum’s development.
Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and his Committee wholeheartedly on the report—eight out of 10, I would say. He has just spoken about gender equality and gender issues in engineering, and there is a very good passage in his report on the subject. However, I could find no recommendations to address the issues of diversity when it comes to gender and engineering. Was that because he could not think of any, or have I missed them?
Andrew Miller
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his response to the Gracious Address. It was interesting that the leaders of both parties commented on the sterling work that he is doing on engineering. My challenge to both Front-Bench Members is to follow their leaders and deliver on the quality of the work that the hon. Gentleman is doing.
To answer the hon. Gentleman’s question specifically, we were concentrating on 14-to-19 education. In my view, another part of the work that is needed is for us to work on developing continual professional development in schools, including, very importantly, among primary schools, because the seeds are sown at a much younger age. My simple answer is that the issue was outside the scope of our report, but he raises a very important point that ties back into the earlier debate, a large part of which I was privileged to sit in on.
We were keen to find out why there is such a mismatch between the demand and supply of engineers, and how subject choices were made, which is obviously part of it. Let us start with the English baccalaureate. The EBacc performance measure was introduced in 2011, but retrospectively applied to 2010 figures. It recognised where students have achieved a GCSE grade C or above in English, maths, sciences, history, geography and languages. Looking at the impact of the EBacc on engineering education, we heard mixed views. Some welcomed the EBacc’s focus on maths and sciences, which are important precursors for engineering. Some evidence shows that the EBacc has correlated with a greater uptake of science GCSEs. Some 93% of GCSE students are due to take a double or triple science GCSE in summer 2014, which is the highest proportion for two decades.
However, the EBacc has a downside for engineering, too. Maths and science GCSEs are not the only route into engineering. Important subjects such as design and technology are not included in the EBacc, and I know that a lot of companies agree with me on that point. About a quarter of the students accepted on to engineering degree courses in the UK have an A-level in design and technology. Worryingly, a qualification awarding body told us that some schools had been
“switching large numbers of students away from Product Design, Engineering, Manufacturing and Applied Science GCSEs.”
In some cases, that has happened when students were already six months into those programmes.
Although we welcome the EBacc’s focus on the attainment of maths and science GCSEs, we were concerned that important subjects such as design and technology are being adversely affected as schools focus on the EBacc. We recommended that the Government consider how to reward schools and recognise performance in non-EBacc subjects when it reviews the school accountability system.
The TechBacc—the technical baccalaureate—is an interesting development. It was designed when we were conducting our inquiry. In April, the Government announced the TechBacc performance measure as an
“alternative to the A level study route for post-16 education.”
We set out some hopes for the curriculum. First, the TechBacc should offer a broad base of education to facilitate a wide range of further study and career options. Secondly, the Government must endeavour to ensure that the TechBacc does not suffer from the cultural misconception that plagues vocational education—namely that it is for the less bright students, which comes back to my point about that important continuum.
Thirdly, and possibly most controversially, we concluded that schools must be incentivised to focus on the TechBacc and, therefore, that the TechBacc should be equivalent to the EBacc in all respects. A list of courses that will count towards the TechBacc will be published later this year, and I would welcome the Minister’s comments on whether the TechBacc will be equivalent to the EBacc for those schools that offer it. Could she also comment on how many schools might offer the TechBacc?
While the diploma in engineering is yet to prove itself, it has been in place since 2008. The qualification, which is for 14 to 19-year-olds, is available at three levels: foundation, higher and advanced. It sits alongside the traditional educational pathways of GCSEs and A-levels, and it offers students classroom-based learning, combined with work-related practical experience. The engineering level 2 diploma is equivalent to seven GCSEs, with a core principal learning component equivalent to five GCSEs.
As a result of the publication of the Wolf review of vocational education in March 2011, a vocational qualification will count as equivalent to only one GCSE in the 2014 key stage 4 performance tables. That means the engineering diploma would be equivalent to one GCSE in performance tables, despite requiring curriculum time equivalent to several.
The Government caused great unhappiness among engineers in 2012, when the change to the GCSE equivalence of the engineering diploma was announced. Employers considered the diploma to be excellent at providing the next generation of skilled engineers. In paragraph 17 of their response, the Government do not agree with us on vocational skills, saying:
“The performance table reforms were made following a full, public consultation and were not made in haste.”
There is a contradiction in the evidence there, and I would like the Government to publish their evidence, because it certainly conflicts with the evidence we heard.
The engineering community started discussions with the Government over redeveloping the diploma in May 2012. Then, in November 2012, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that the engineering diploma would be “reworked”. During our inquiry, the Under-Secretary of State for Skills, the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), stated the reworked diploma “won’t be a diploma” but “four separate qualifications”. The Government expected the revamped qualifications to be available for students to sit as early as 2014.
Although we are pleased that the Government have been engaging with the engineering community to redesign the diploma, some of the damage already seems to have been done. The rapidly climbing numbers of students taking the diploma hit a peak and then started dropping. In one submission, the change was seen as
“a retrograde step, out-of-sync with government’s stated intentions to rebalance the economy towards manufacturing.”
We concluded that, in changing the engineering diploma, the Government potentially sent a poor message about the value of engineering education.
The engineering diploma is particularly popular with university technical colleges. UTCs integrate national curriculum requirements with technical and vocational elements. Recently, I was delighted, as part of my personal research for the report, to visit the JCB academy. Bamford is not seen as a natural friend of the Labour party, but, goodness me, he has done an amazing job in investing in that school. It is inspiring place; indeed, people can go into Arkwright’s original mill and see the school’s energy coming from the same mill races Arkwright used to run the mill, although the safety conditions have improved more than somewhat since those days. What an inspiring school; it helps its talented students to work in engineering by encouraging them to get inside problems and work on complex issues.
With his background, my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), who speaks for the Opposition, would be intrigued to see how Shakespeare, for example, was taught. “Romeo and Juliet” was being taught when I visited, and I expected a secondary modern, linear approach, with the play being taught from beginning to end, but the students were writing an essay about the causes of conflict between and within families. What a good way of understanding what is, after all, a very complicated storyline. That is the way the teaching is done. It is an inspiring school, and it made me want to go back to school.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
Just to reassure my hon. Friend, I should say that I am visiting the JCB Rocester academy on 5 July, and I am looking forward to it enormously.
Andrew Miller
My hon. Friend will find some very talented students, inspiring teachers and fantastic equipment. It is worth examining whether we can develop that in other UTCs.
Stephen Mosley
As a Committee, we were really impressed by the UTCs, the students and the head teachers; we thought that they were a fantastic idea and that they should be rolled out. However, we had a little concern that that must not be at the expense of teaching science and engineering in mainstream schools. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could touch on that.
Andrew Miller
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The Government must focus on good engineering education in all schools and colleges, and not just silo it in a few specialist institutions. That is hugely important, and it is one of the issues we all need to consider in relation to the success of UTCs. We must not silo them, but integrate them as part of the mainstream offer; indeed, in some towns and cities, we must look at how schools can collaborate to make possible a wider spread of engineering skills among students. That is an important point.
We have just heard about the Education Committee’s inquiry into careers guidance. Its report set out in detail the importance of face-to-face careers advice for young people and recommended that
“the Department for Education introduces into the statutory guidance a requirement for schools to publish an annual careers plan, to include information on the support and resources available to its pupils in planning their career development.”
We looked at careers advice from the engineering perspective, and we concluded that the duty on schools to provide access to impartial, independent advice was laudable.
In principle, we support greater autonomy for schools to provide careers advice. However, the duty poses problems in practice. First, there are resource implications for schools, which are given more responsibility but no additional budget to secure careers guidance. Secondly, there is little guidance on the quality of careers guidance that should be available to students. That partly comes back to the fact that there is insufficient time in the school day for teachers to have the continuous professional development training that would enable them to be on top of what is happening in the economy and in the area surrounding the school. There is a gap, and successive Governments have tried to wrestle with the problem, but we must address it.
The quality of careers guidance can go up only if those giving it have at least some understanding of what being an engineer means. An interesting discovery that we made in research for another Committee report, entitled “Bridging the valley of death”, on the economics of developing small high-tech businesses, was that Lloyds Bank had found time to send some managers on engineering training courses. If a busy commercial bank can do it, it is not beyond the wit of Ministers to develop a similar scheme that would work for teachers, to try to help them to understand a bit more about the jobs available in the communities where they teach.
Stephen Mosley
The hon. Gentleman has not yet touched on the value of experience in getting people interested in engineering. One witness went to a lecture on the Bloodhound supersonic car. That young lady said that for her it was a turning point: she had to study engineering, build cars and race them across the world. Opportunities for people to get experience in engineering are hugely important, whether they happen through work experience or education field trips. Does the hon. Gentleman have any thoughts on that?
Andrew Miller
I am a great believer in the importance of practical skills. The teacher I remember most—he is still alive and I met him a couple of years ago—was George Ellis, who taught me woodwork. George had a great talent, with children of any ability—hon. Members may make jokes about my ability—of breaking problems down to the practical level that they could cope with and building up a solution. That is how he taught children of disparate abilities. He was a passionate believer in getting young people out and about to see and experience things with their own eyes. Making an engine work—building it from scratch—and similar skills are ones that we seem to write off these days, because they are vocational and not academic.
That brings me back to my point about the importance of the continuum. Every one of us, whatever we do, needs that continuum of skills. I agree with the hon. Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley): the examples that we heard of kids going to see the Bloodhound project, and youngsters being involved in Big Bang and similar projects, are hugely important. The House should press for projects such as Big Bang to continue to be available for young people. We should try to get more state schools engaged in it. It would be great if Engineering UK ended up with a problem that was so big that it could not be managed as a national exhibition, but had to be broken down into regional exhibitions.
Andrew Miller
I am aware that it is going regional, but it is still not yet of such a scale that we can say that every school has bought into it. That should be our target: to help Engineering UK to achieve just that.
I was privileged enough, a few weeks ago, to go back to my old stomping ground in Portsmouth and to address the congress of the Engineering Professors Council, to present the outcome of our report. The broad thrust of the report has been welcomed by engineering professors, learned societies, trade bodies and individual companies. Substantial parts of it have been welcomed by the Government. My plea is for us all to work together to deliver on our stated commitments—I refer once again to the comments of the party leaders in the debate on the Gracious Speech. It is up to us to do it, and we have the tools. Let us now get on with it.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Walker, and to speak in this important and timely debate.
Why is a debate on educating tomorrow’s engineers important, and worthy of a report by the Select Committee on Science and Technology? There is no doubt that the country faces huge challenges. None is greater than the economic challenge; and our future is by no means certain, so we need to carve out a new future for our nation—one that is not based just on financial and other service-based industries, which perhaps we have come to rely on too much. They are valuable industries, but we need to rebalance our economy.
We need also to recognise that we will not return to the heavy metal-bashing industries of the past and that we need to play to our strengths; perhaps we had forgotten what they were. For too long, we abandoned—or at the very least undervalued—our skilled industrial and engineering heritage, in favour of other sectors. The time has come for that to change, and I hope that the report will instigate and support that change.
What lies behind the Government’s reforms in education must be widely and generally welcomed. There is a deep-seated belief that we need to give young people the best possible opportunities and skills to enable them to get access to the jobs that will exist in future. Some of the reforms that we considered will achieve that. We may collectively have underestimated the value of engineering, but let us not undersell ourselves.
As the Committee Chairman, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), said, engineering and manufacturing are still hugely important to the country. They are also important to me personally in my constituency. The UK is home to more than 500,000 engineering companies, employing, as we heard, 5.4 million people, of whom 2.3 million would consider themselves to be skilled engineers. That accounts for 8% of the work force. As we heard, it accounts for one fifth of GDP and half of all our exports, and turns over £1.15 trillion. We should not underestimate the importance of the sector, but we sometimes do, and we therefore seem to have created an ever-widening skills gap, which has consequences for the economy and for the rebalancing of our national wealth.
Stephen Mosley
I am the co-chairman of the parliamentary ICT forum, and one of the things that companies always tell us is that the No. 1 thing they look for when considering investing in any country is not tax or any such factor but whether the skills that they need are available where they are thinking of locating a factory or development lab. The report ties into that.
Stephen Metcalfe
My hon. Friend is right. Skills are a major factor when people are deciding where to invest. Something that I found surprising, or perhaps even shocking, was that when the CBI conducted a survey of companies, it found that 42%, across all sectors, reported a skills gap when recruiting. That skills gap is as true in my local context as it is nationally.
South Basildon and East Thurrock has a long and rich industrial heritage, and I shall, if I may, blow my constituency’s trumpet for a moment. For example, one in 10 of the world’s large tractors are built in Basildon, at Case New Holland, generating £7 billion of exports. The personal IED-blockers that our servicemen wear in Afghanistan are built, designed and programmed in Basildon by Selex. Gardner Aerospace is a medium-sized engineering firm, employing more than 200 staff in my constituency. It is a tier 1 supplier to Airbus—there is not an Airbus A380 that flies without a part made in Basildon—and it competes with firms in cheaper-cost-base countries such as India and China, and why is it able to compete? Because of its quality and because it delivers on time.
Tristram Hunt
Given the excellence of the Airbus-producing manufacturer in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, has that impacted at all on his ideas about the virtue or otherwise of the European single market?
Stephen Metcalfe
That is probably a debate for another day. There is no doubt, when we export 50% of our goods to Europe, that it is an important customer of ours, and I would not want to do anything to undermine that, but what does undermine that company’s ability to prosper and grow is the lack of skilled engineers in the wider work force. When I recently visited the company, I was told that although it is managing to recruit apprentices to train up to support its current work base, if it were to be offered a new large contract, it could not go out into the economy and recruit enough engineers to expand, even though we can compete with low-cost-base countries. That demonstrates why it is so important that we bridge that skills gap.
While I am blowing my own constituency’s trumpet, let me say that it is also home to Ford’s research and development facility at Dunton. The facility employs some 4,000 designers, engineers and technicians. For these companies to prosper, we need to bridge that skills gap, so what can be done?
First, we need to change our attitudes towards engineering as a career. We all need to work harder at promoting engineering as the rewarding, well-compensated profession that it is. It is a profession that shapes the world that we live in, and too many people do not understand that. Certainly, too many young people do not understand it. They are not aware of the role of engineering—how it shapes the world that they touch and experience every day. Even when they understand that and have a positive attitude towards it, that does not necessarily translate into wider participation, so we must have a change. We must find a way to engage with young people and show them that they have a role to play in engineering. That starts in schools, but there are concerns, as we have heard, that some of the changes that have been made to our education system will not necessarily support that.
There are concerns that the curriculum changes will do little to inspire people to take up STEM subjects: science, technology, engineering and maths. There is concern that with design and technology no longer being compulsory, people will not be able to take their enthusiasm for that subject further. I look forward to being corrected if that is not the case. One of the issues that I would like my hon. Friend the Minister to address particularly is whether the EBacc is likely to encourage schools to concentrate on the five core subjects, rather than offering a broader education that might include exposure to engineering. Concern is also expressed that the new TechBacc does not receive the same recognition as the EBacc. Again, if that could be addressed, I would be most grateful.
There are concerns, as we heard from the Chairman of the Select Committee, that the changes to and perceived downgrading of the engineering diploma could send the wrong message. I am sure that that is not the Government’s aim. As I said at the beginning of my speech, I believe that the Government’s changes to education are designed to give people all the skills that they need to make the most of the potential that they have.
There are plenty of positives, and I will try to touch on them, although I do not want to detain hon. Members too long. One of the things that I welcome most is the university technical colleges—I would certainly welcome one in my constituency. They are a fantastic way of giving young people skills and inspiring them into potentially interesting and well-rewarded careers. My only concern about the university technical college programme is that not enough people will have access to it. I think that they are fantastic and would support them wholeheartedly. I would love to see an engineering and logistics university technical college in Basildon.
I am very pleased that, through an initiative funded by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Government are creating a network of more than 25,000 STEM professionals and academics who can go into schools to support STEM education and promote STEM careers. I understand that the Government are also part-funding STEM clubs. The hope is that 80% of secondary schools will have one of those clubs by 2015. I have seen how some of the clubs work in my own constituency when they are supported by industry as well. They are fantastic; they really do get people excited.
Both the private sector and the voluntary sector have a role to play, as I have seen locally. The power generation company npower runs programmes that involve people going out into schools and showing young people the practical application of engineering. Network Rail produces support material. JCB, as we have heard, sponsors a UTC. Businesses such as Ford and Selex in my constituency support the engineering and STEM clubs. There are initiatives such as “We Made It!” and Primary Engineer, which is fantastic, because we cannot start encouraging people to be interested in engineering young enough. Primary Engineer is a project that works with key stage 1 and key stage 2 pupils, getting them to design vehicles that they can then test in a competition. It allows them to look at the engineering solution to certain problems. It is fantastic to see in practice.
Andrew Miller
I add to the hon. Gentleman’s list the Rolls-Royce awards. This year’s winner is a primary school from Belfast. It is an inspiring project that the youngsters and teachers have been engaged in, but the key there was the partnership between the company and the school to bring the technical expertise that was outside the school into the classroom.
Stephen Metcalfe
Absolutely, and that leads me to my next point beautifully. All those things are brilliant, and to see them in action is fantastic. My concern is that what is happening is not systematic enough. We are not getting it into every school, and not every pupil or student has access to it. One of the recommendations in the Select Committee report—I was delighted that the Government accepted it without amendment—was that all the learned societies, professional engineering institutions and trade bodies should oblige their members to go into schools, in a systematic way, to promote engineering and technology. Even if it was just for one day a year, if each of those engineers could go into schools across the whole school body, it could have a significant impact.
As a result of some of the initiatives, we are beginning to see an improvement in the uptake of engineering and particularly in the number of engineering apprentices and apprenticeships in our economy. Today, just before I came here, I had some very good news. DP World, which is constructing the London Gateway container port down at Shell Haven in my constituency, will on Monday announce the creation of six new engineering apprenticeships to support the engineering activity that takes place on that site. To see £1.5 billion invested in south Essex is great, but the engineering feat—the reclamation of the land and then the handling of millions of containers—is a fantastic sight and something that will, we hope, excite those six potential engineers.
In conclusion, there are some fantastic organisations and companies throughout our country doing some great things to inspire the next generation of engineers, but we must do more. We face a lack of skills and a shortage of aspiration to give people those skills, but those problems are not insurmountable. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that
“engineers are the real revolutionaries, the ones who take society forward, who create the technologies and the structures which carry us into new worlds.”
Although progress is being made and the general thrust of what the Government are trying to achieve is welcome, we must do all that we can to ensure that engineers can continue to take our society forward and continue to forge a future that will meet our increasingly complex needs. I hope that the Government will revisit our report, take it in the spirit in which it is meant and use it to achieve our shared and combined goal of creating a broader uptake of engineering across our whole society.
Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)
Order. Depending on the length of the next speech, we will start the winding-up speeches at 4 pm ideally. If the Front Benchers could leave two minutes for the Committee Chair at the end—we are due to finish at 4.30 pm—that would be well received by all, I am sure.
Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)
I am most grateful, Mr Walker; I shall try not to take up all that time, generous though the allocation is. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), the Chair of the Committee, on the excellent way he introduced his report and on his earlier speech, and my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) on what he said. I agree with everything they have said, which makes this a consensual, but none the less important debate.
I am most grateful to the Chair of the Committee for what he said about my speech last week in the Queen’s Speech debate. I echo what he said about the welcome response from the Leader of the Opposition, declaring cross-party support for efforts to encourage the status of engineering in our society and, in particular, women’s role in engineering. My speech last week had one great problem; it was overshadowed by the retirement of Sir Alex Ferguson. I have bad news for the Chair of the Committee today; this debate will also not get the attention it deserves, because it is being overshadowed by the announcement today of David Beckham’s retirement from football. My serious point is, would it not be great if the retirement of a major engineering figure attracted even a fraction of the attention that the retirement of a major footballer does? As my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock said, it is engineers who change the world. Footballers entertain us marvellously and they are great people—probably overpaid, but great none the less—but engineers make the world a better place to live in. Their role is important to society. I have just come back from Jordan, where I talked to Jordanian parliamentarians about democracy. Most of the Jordanian Members of Parliament I met, rejoiced in the title “engineer” before their name. If only we could honour engineering as they do in other societies around the world, it would be better for all of us.
I declare a non-interest, in that the excellent Georgie Luff—who gave evidence to the Committee, is reported in the minutes of the Committee and referred to in the report itself—is, as far as I know, no relation. I wish she were. She is an outstanding young lady and clearly did a great service to women and engineering in her evidence to the Committee. I am a non-executive director of a small advanced manufacturing business, where I am seeing for myself firsthand the very real problems facing engineering companies. Skills shortages in engineering are real and present.
During my chairmanship of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills in the previous Parliament, many of the reports we produced referred to the skills shortage. I became more and more concerned about it, and the inadequate careers advice in schools. As a Defence Minister, I saw for myself just how pressing the shortage was. I went to TRaC Global, a test and evaluation company, and opened its Dorset facility. I was told, “Minister, we’ve given up looking for engineers from British universities. It is not worth our while, because they aren’t there. We’re recruiting from Spain and Portugal.” That was my moment of revelation. It is all right for a major British engineering company in the civil sector to recruit overseas—it is a massive wasted opportunity for British young people that they are not being employed to work in those engineering companies and the jobs are going to foreigners instead—but we cannot do that in the defence sector, because we need UK eyes only on high security matters. As I said in my speech last week, when I proposed the Loyal Address, the shortage of engineering skills in this country
“is one of the greatest avoidable threats to…prosperity and security.”—[Official Report, 8 May 2013; Vol. 563, c. 7.]
I stand by those words.
Locally, the success of engineering companies can be a problem for Members of Parliament. In my part of the world, Jaguar Land Rover is flourishing—sucking up all the design engineers it can find, not only in the west midlands, but further afield. The result is that many engineering companies in my constituency find it more and more difficult to recruit engineers due to the desperate shortage of engineering skills. The shortage is made infinitely worse by the demographic of the engineering profession. Many people will retire in the next 10 years, so we will have to recruit a phenomenal number just to keep pace and fill the gaps.
I gave the Chair of the Committee eight out of 10 for the report. That was a bit churlish of me, so I apologise. It was mainly because he did not draw its scope quite wide enough. It was focused, quite reasonably, on the 14 to 19 age range. He helpfully said in response to my intervention that key stage 2 and, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock said, key stage 1 matter hugely as well, and I agree. If we are talking about inspiring the next generation of engineers, as the report does in chapter 4, starting young is important.
Although the report says all the right things about women in engineering, it does not identify specific steps that could be implemented to enhance their participation rate. In France, the engineering participation rate for women is about 21% or 22%; here, the estimates differ, but 10% to 12% is a good guess—half the French rate. The French are worried that their rate is too low, and yet we have the lowest rate in the European Union. We are 27th out of 27 and will be 28th out of 28 when Croatia joins. It is a scandal in its own terms, but it is also a missed opportunity for engineering. Modern engineering and its problem-solving nature lends itself more and more to the skills sets that females bring to the profession. We desperately need women to be engaged in engineering, and it is a great shame that we have not yet succeeded in boosting their numbers.
Another important thing that the Committee’s report refers to—although perhaps not quite enough—is how to engage business in schools. There is a lot about taking teachers out and helping them to understand business, but how do we help businesses to engage more in schools? What upsets me so much is we are living in a society with a real, acute youth unemployment problem—not only in this country, but around the world—and employers are crying out for skill sets that are not available in the labour force. It cannot be beyond the wit of man to marry up those problems; if we produce more engineers, we address the problem of youth unemployment, at least in part, and solve the problems facing our economy and security.
Things are happening, which the Government’s response to the Committee’s excellent report mentions. Paragraph 5 gives statistics that are encouraging in many senses:
“A-level physics entries have risen from 25,620 in 2009 to 30,750 in 2012.”
That is a welcome, good increase—constructive and positive—but it is nowhere near enough. A problem in the debate is that education gets boring so quickly. It becomes ridden with cliché and jargon, complex constructs and complex bureaucracies, but there is one thing at the bottom of it: we must inspire more young people, particularly girls, to want to be engineers—that is the essence of it. The Government understand that, as does the Minister and the Under-Secretary of State for Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), who responded to the previous debate. The skills shortage is a matter of the utmost urgency.
I do not think “complacency” can be used to describe the Government’s response; I caution against that. The issue is pressing and urgent and must fundamentally be addressed. The Government are right to say that the figures are improving, but the figures are not better enough and they are not improving fast enough. They are not as high as they were in the 1980s, for heaven’s sake! The scandal of girls’ participation is a real problem. The Institute of Physics produced a marvellous report, “It’s Different for Girls”, on participation rates for women in engineering, and physics in particular. One statistic in the report horrifies me more than any other: 49% of maintained co-educational schools sent no girls on to take A-level physics in 2011. In half of all maintained co-educational schools, no girls do A-level physics as a result of their education up to A-level. We simply must change that. Physics is, I think, the fourth most popular choice for boys, but the 14th for girls. The figures are well down and there is no reason for that whatsoever.
Stephen Metcalfe
Does my hon. Friend agree that one way to change that shocking statistic would be for those women who had studied physics—STEM subjects —to come into schools to inspire other women to think about taking such subjects further than GCSE and to provide positive role models?
Peter Luff
Many young women are doing that most magnificently. ScienceGrrl is a marvellous organisation—I cannot believe how many R’s there are in girl now. They are a fantastic bunch of young women trying to inspire the next generation of female engineers and scientists. I use the word “engineer”, but I am not sure what it means; I think it is really applied science.
Andrew Miller
For the benefit of Hansard, girl is spelled G-R-R-L and such is the importance of the subject, they are tweeting the debate.
Peter Luff
I do not think that I am allowed to recognise the Gallery, Mr Walker, but I am not surprised. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for correcting the number of R’s. I have their literature in my hand. That exchange has put me off my stride.
Addressing the issue is of huge importance. It is valuable for young people to go back to school to show secondary school pupils doing GCSEs and A-levels what they can do with those qualifications. The problem begins at key stage 2, because many of the role modals available, for girls in particular, in primary schools are female arts graduates. That is not a criticism of them at all, but they do not understand engineering, nor should they be expected to. The key is to get businesses into schools. We cannot expect teachers to correct every problem in our society—it would be unreasonable to do so—so let us get businesses into schools. That is why I particularly welcome what the Minister has done on the design and technology curriculum, and I know that she will be glad that I said that.
Design and technology is compulsory at key stages 1, 2 and 3 and an option at key stage 4. I am happy with that arrangement, particularly now that the curriculum has been so dramatically improved as a result of her interventions, for which I am grateful. As I said to her when we met to discuss it a couple of weeks ago, the curriculum now provides an opportunity to get businesses into schools to support it in a way that helps teachers and does the inspiration job that my hon. Friend and the Chairman of the Committee spoke so powerfully about.
The chief executive officers of the major companies are waiting for this and want it to happen, but as has been said, too much is happening. There are too many initiatives at present. It is a fantastically complex world out there. I hope that the new design and technology curriculum can act as a focus to inspire the institutions, major companies and trade associations to bring the initiatives together in a single place, probably under EngineeringUK’s “Tomorrow’s Engineers” banner, another first-rate initiative. That would bring greater coherence to the massive picture of opportunities out there to inspire young people.
What worries me is that very few of those initiatives are actually reaching my constituency. Primary Engineer, about which my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock spoke so well, is an outstanding institution. Why are the Scots using it so intensely and the English not? The Scots are a great engineering nation, but its penetration into Scotland is much greater than into England. I hope that that can be corrected as well.
I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing attention to a Committee recommendation, to which the Government responded in paragraph 52, on the role of institutions. To become chartered engineers, people must demonstrate a certain commitment to the wider community, and one way of doing so is to demonstrate that they have gone into schools and helped inspire and educate a new generation of engineers. That could be made more specific in the regulations on chartered engineer status. If the Government are minded to take forward the discussion on institutions, that is a route that I particularly recommend.
I am in danger of becoming bored by my own message because I am stating it so often, but it is exceptionally important. I am told by my old mentor Lord Walker, “It’s only when you’re sick and tired of your own message that you’re probably just beginning to communicate it to the outside world.” I say to my hon. Friend the Minister: believe in this. It matters a great deal. She should take the wise words of the Select Committee Chairman and the report seriously, and understand that if she can turn around the issue and inspire another 10% of women to participate in engineering, doubling the figure, she will do a great thing for the cause of her gender, for the economy and for the security of the nation.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker, and to follow the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), who has produced another compelling and interesting speech. I begin to think that he is a renaissance man, given his involvement also in the upcoming commemorations of the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta in 2015.
The Opposition welcome the Science and Technology Committee’s report. It is an important intervention on a question vital to rebalancing our economy and improving our competitiveness and, as we have just heard, for reasons of national security. “How do we educate tomorrow’s engineers?” is our collective exam question. The Opposition also welcome the Government’s response to the report, now that it has finally arrived.
I follow the hon. Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe), serving as a constituency Member of Parliament, in thinking of the excellent traditions of engineering that we have in Stoke-on-Trent. I am thinking particularly of Goodwin International, a company now in its 10th generation of family ownership, which produces precision steel engineering for nuclear power stations in China, as well as for bridges around the world. Olympus Engineering is another fine business in my constituency.
As the report and many colleagues have noted, the UK engineering sector comprises more than 500,000 companies, employing 5.4 million people and generating one fifth of our GDP and half our exports. In 2010, it generated a £1.15 trillion turnover. By any measure, that is a profound contribution to our economic well-being. We all want to move wealth across the country away from London and the south-east to ensure greater equity in our constituencies. The sector is a profound part of our economy.
Although I would be happy, indeed delighted, to wax lyrical about the wonders of Richard Arkwright, Isambard Kingdom Brunel, Thomas Telford and Stoke-on-Trent’s own Reginald Mitchell, designer of the Spitfire, at the moment we should think of the future and the modern global race for competitiveness. We are not where we need to be on skills, as the recent global survey by PricewaterhouseCoopers outlined. That survey of more than 1,300 chief executive officers revealed that UK business leaders are more concerned about the availability of key skills than any of their western European counterparts, rating the issue as the greatest threat to their businesses’ growth. We have heard evidence of that in the debate. Three out of four chief executives said that creating and encouraging a skilled work force should be the Government’s highest priority for business in the year ahead.
Nowhere is the struggle for skills more obvious than in engineering. As the Committee report outlines, by 2020, we will need 820,000 science, engineering and technology professionals, 80% of whom will be required in engineering. One need only look at the Indian institutes of technology or what is going on in China to realise that the rest of the world is not going to wait around for us to catch up.
Stephen Metcalfe
The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point, with which I am sure we all agree. Does he therefore fully accept that we are competing on a global stage and that we are in a global race? We owe it to our young people to give them all the skills that they need to compete in that global race.
Tristram Hunt
I absolutely agree. The challenge is how to do so, and politics is the issue. We must push ourselves up the quality supply chain if we are to earn our money in the world. It is therefore depressing to read in the report that 31% of high-tech manufacturing firms had recruited people from outside the UK owing to a lack of suitably qualified people from within the UK. It is both a business and a national security question.
One area in which we simply must improve, as the Chair of the Select Committee and the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire suggested, is redressing the gender balance and the under-representation of women across the engineering sector. New research by EngineeringUK reveals that many girls rule out careers in science and engineering by the time they are only 14 years old. The UK has the lowest number of women scientists and engineers of all EU countries, fewer than 9% of girls opt for physics at GCSE level and 25% of schoolgirls think that science careers are most suited to boys. I remember hearing powerful evidence from the chief executive of Brompton Bicycle about looking for a female design engineer; candidates simply did not come forward. He wanted a female engineer precisely for a different way of thinking and problem solving, and for the new capacities that she could bring into his company.
Of all OECD countries, we currently languish at 21st for intermediate technical skills. I thought that at this stage I would introduce some partisan rancour. One would think that the Government would be doing all that they could to promote engineering and science and to develop a rigorous approach to vocational education and technical skills. We could have had a modern skills settlement in the Gracious Speech. That would have been far more useful to British competitiveness than grandstanding on a European referendum.
Although I am happy, indeed delighted, to pay tribute to the Minister’s excellent work on promoting mathematics in schools and encouraging greater female take-up of mathematics, sadly, the Government have not fulfilled the other side of the equation. Instead, they have devalued apprenticeships, undermined careers guidance by abandoning the statutory duty to provide work experience and downgraded a successful qualification in the engineering diploma. From the Committee’s evidence, it seems difficult to substantiate the Government’s claim in their response that they considered the views of the engineering sector carefully when downgrading the diploma in the infamous paragraph 17.
Like the Chair of the Select Committee, I also look forward to seeing those responses, because the evidence is unequivocal. National Grid suggests that downgrading the diploma will make it a less attractive option to schools. Meanwhile, the Engineering Employers Federation stated that the downgrading of diplomas has not sent out the signal to employers and young people that the Government are serious about the status and value of vocational education. I could go on.
In light of that damning verdict from the sector’s leading employers’ federation, will the Minister enlighten us as to how exactly she considered carefully the engineering sector’s views on the process of the downgrade? The Opposition agree with the EEF’s verdict and support the Committee’s position that the downgrading of the diploma represents a poor message about how much the Government value engineering education. It is all very well for the Government to suggest that they are now consulting on a replacement, but it is difficult to find fault with the Committee’s simple argument that any new plans could have been developed before the decision to downgrade. Indeed, that is arguably representative of elements of the Government’s education agenda.
We all support a rigorous grounding in core subjects, and it would be impossible not to welcome, along with other hon. Members, the increasing number of pupils studying triple science and A-level mathematics, as the Government outlined in their response. The point about the EBacc, however, is not that such core subjects are not an important part of a well-rounded education for all—of course they are. The point is in the narrowness, both the incentive it provides to schools to narrow an academic offer and, more importantly, the numbers of students it affects. As the Chair of the Select Committee pointed out, that can often lead to perverse outcomes.
A case in point is design and technology. Manufacturers and engineers have made it clear that they are troubled by its removal from key stage 4 as a compulsory subject.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Elizabeth Truss)
It is not a compulsory subject at key stage 4 at the moment.
Tristram Hunt
As I say, manufacturers and engineers would like as much take-up of it at key stage 4 as possible. It is undoubtedly an important subject for training and educating the next generation of engineers. There is a need, however, to look again at the content of the proposed curriculum. I am surprised by some comments made by Government Members about the content, because the CBI’s director for employment and skills has said:
“The proposed design and technology curriculum is out of step with the needs of a modern economy. It lacks academic and technical rigour, as well as clear links to the realities of the workplace… The proposals…risk reinforcing existing prejudices about applied subjects being second-rate.”
Peter Luff
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman, particularly as he is being gracious about my speech. That was what the CBI said, but I think the hon. Gentleman will find that the new draft of the D and T curriculum, on which I have worked closely with the Minister, is a great improvement on that. The whole sector, including the Royal Academy of Engineering, the Design and Technology Association and the CBI, will be well pleased with the draft that will now be part of the curriculum.
Tristram Hunt
I would love to stand corrected. If the CBI and other members of the engineering community are delighted with the new curriculum—
Tristram Hunt
If they are less unhappy with the new curriculum, I look forward to reading their comments in due course.
What we need is the rigour not just of the past but of the future. Of course, the Government have belatedly announced their proposals for a technical baccalaureate, and that is a welcome change of tone. When the Labour party announced its plans for a TechBacc, the Government dismissed our proposed gold-standard vocational qualification as something that would
“leave millions of state school pupils unemployable.”
If that is not talking down vocational education, I do not know what is.
Labour’s technical baccalaureate would have a work experience requirement, and businesses told Labour’s skills task force that such a requirement is crucial. We would also place control over accrediting courses for the TechBacc qualification in the hands of business. Rolls-Royce or Jaguar Land Rover, for example, which, as has been mentioned, are going to transform the skills training economy in the west midlands with the i54 development, could be involved in designing the content of engineering education. That is in contrast to the Government’s vision for the TechBacc as an institutional performance measure—a wrap-up performance measure— rather than as a gold-standard qualification.
Mr Walker, sadly you were not here, but in the previous debate we discussed the Education Committee’s seventh report. I endorse the concerns expressed in this report, which echo those of that report, that the Government have removed the statutory duty for work experience. In the public consultation to Alison Wolf’s excellent report, 89% of respondents did not believe that the duty should be removed, and with employers routinely complaining, as we have heard this afternoon, about the lack of workplace knowledge and the arguably poor employability of many young people, the Government must consider whether scrapping work experience is a good idea.
Stephen Metcalfe
The hon. Gentleman is right on one level. Work experience, when done well, can provide a really good opportunity to get an insight into either a sector of our economy or the world of work. Too often, however, work experience for 14 to 16-year-olds is not rewarding at all and can put people off work. Schools often scratch around trying to find enough employers to provide what is, basically, a sitting service for two weeks at the end of year 10 and the start of year 11. It has to be valued and it has to be good, and sometimes that is not possible at 14 to 16. That is why I think that the emphasis on later, and quality, work experience is much more valuable.
Tristram Hunt
Of course the hon. Gentleman is right that bad work experience serves no purpose. The onus is clearly on the responsibility to deliver an effective work placement. Once careers guidance is downgraded—as we have discussed—our worry is whether the capacity to offer rewarding work experience and work placements will be there in schools. We will see how this rolls itself out, but with careers, work experience and work placements there is a genuine concern that the Government’s emphasis and attention are not where they could be, precisely at the time when so many young people face the real possibility of unemployment.
Some points in the Government’s response are welcome. Clearly, the new accountability proposals are a small step in the direction of correcting the narrow focus of the EBacc as the sole performance measure. The Opposition also welcome the progress made on university technical colleges, which play a small but vital role in delivering engineering excellence. We have heard about the work of Sir Anthony Bamford and JCB but, as the hon. Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) suggested, they are not the universal answer, and we must ensure that science and technology is delivered across mainstream schooling.
It is clear that although both sides of the House may share a similar ambition for a dynamic engineering sector at the heart of a rebalanced economy, the Opposition believe that we have a cast-iron commitment to creating the parity that is needed between academic and high quality vocational education routes, so as to educate the next generation of engineers.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Elizabeth Truss)
It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. I thank the members of the Select Committee for their comprehensive report. We have had very interesting speeches from the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), and my hon. Friends the Members for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley), for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) and for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), and I also thank the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), for some elements of his speech.
I am pleased that we all agree that scientific, engineering and technological innovation has a critical role to play in the future of the UK economy. We all know that we are in a global race. We need a population that is at least as mathematically skilled and technologically literate as those of China, Singapore, Brazil and all the other emerging countries, and we have a considerable way to go to achieve that. At the moment, we have the smallest proportion of 16 to 18 year-olds studying mathematics in the OECD.
In my constituency, I know the vital role that engineering plays from the apprentices at RAF Marham, who will shortly be working on the new Lightning II joint strike fighter, the most advanced fighter jet in the world, and from G’s Growers in the food and farming industry, who do laser levelling of the land. That shows that high-tech engineering applications apply across many different industries. One thing we are doing in the new design and technology curriculum is widening the industrial focus, to ensure that schools are able to work with local industries that offer those types of skills. The Government are committed to increasing the number of young people studying STEM subjects.
I agree with the comments made today about getting the message across on a broad level. I have held a number of round tables recently with people from the engineering sector, about how we need to get the message across broadly to parents, as well as to teachers and the wider community, about the fulfilment and the economic value of engineering. We know that people with degrees in subjects such as maths and engineering are some of the most highly paid and sought after, and we need to get that message through from a very early age. As the world develops, there is an increasing return to skills. The correlation between our PISA—programme for international student assessment—results and economic growth has doubled over the past 30 years. There has been a 30% growth in managerial, technical and professional jobs, and we need a skilled populace able to take up those roles.
The remit of the report is 14-19 education, but the building blocks at primary school are so critical that we cannot not mention them. Importantly, we are reviewing our primary mathematics curriculum, so that it focuses much more on core arithmetic skills. It will ensure that children have their times tables, which are the basis of things such as ratio and proportion that are so important in solving multi-step problems in subjects such as engineering. We are also developing a new computing curriculum that will start in primary school. Children will learn not just to use IT programmes, but to programme things such as Scratch and Raspberry Pi from an early age. That will open their eyes, at an early age, to the opportunities that engineering brings.
I mentioned the broadening of the design and technology curriculum. We want primary schools to open children’s eyes to industries and things available for them to do in the local area, which is important for getting girls involved. There has been a lot of media commentary recently about the segregation of girls’ and boys’ toys, such as chemistry sets. As parents, we have to stand up and be counted on such issues. I have two daughters. If we allow the mindset to develop at that age that particular things, such as chemistry and physics, are boys’ things, it has a damaging effect later.
There is a strong role for design and technology, coupled with good mathematics and good computing teaching in primary school, in that it is a universal skill that is useful not only for engineering, which is of course important, but for the quantitative skills that we will need much more in subjects such as history than we did in the past. It is something that everybody has to know and should focus on.
On the design and technology curriculum, we have been working with engineering and other sectors to ensure that it is broad and high level, and that it encourages students to apply the learning they receive in mathematics and sciences. In the maths and science curriculum, we are reforming GCSEs with questions that are more open ended and have a focus that is more on problem solving, modelling and practical application, so that there is not a divide between theory and practice, but more of a continuum between subjects.
People will then understand when they study trigonometry that it is very useful for an engineering apprenticeship. Some young engineering apprentices in my constituency told me, “We had no idea that the trigonometry we used at school would actually be useful in this job, and now we’re really excited about it.” Would it not be great if, when trigonometry is first taught, the teacher brings up such applications, so that students know that they will be useful for their future careers?
Stephen Metcalfe
The Minister is making an excellent point. Too often in education, and not just in science and technology subjects, the application for later in life is lost. Perhaps we might broaden that idea to ensure that there is always some practical example why children, from a very early age, are learning something. When I go into schools, children often have no idea why they are there: it is just somewhere they go during the day. Let us explain why education is important to them and how it will help them in later life.
Elizabeth Truss
I completely agree. One organisation I have talked to is PFEG—the Personal Finance Education Group—which is very supportive of the financial education programme in schools that we have added to the national curriculum. It is keen to help communicate with primary school children about which careers are likely to be available in the future, and which will have the financial rewards to support them and their families when they grow up.
There would thus be an early understanding of the value of continuing to study some of the subjects in which it may take a while for the penny to drop—we have all had moments of struggling through sums and finally getting it—and children could be encouraged by being told, “This is what you can do. This is the kind of thing you could be.” The Under-Secretary of State for Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock) said that he wanted to be an astronaut, which is an aspirational career—I do not think you were in the Chamber, Mr Walker—but he settled for being an Under-Secretary, which I am sure we agree is an equivalent profession. Perhaps not.
We are making good progress on A-levels. The number of pupils taking A-level maths rose by 51% between 2005 and 2010. As the Committee commented, however, that is simply not enough, given that we are 200,000 mathematicians short at university and when many of those shortages are in engineering courses. We therefore need to do more to get students to do A-level maths and physics. Our stimulating physics network is particularly focused on getting girls to do physics at GCSE and A-level, which is part of our programme.
One reason why we have had such a low uptake in maths from 16 to 18, which is a key basis for engineering, is that we have not had the mid-level qualification that many other countries have. It has been all or nothing: children do the full A-level or nothing. We are creating a number of core maths qualifications, such as maths in education and industry, and we are working with Professor Tim Gowers of Cambridge university on a problem-solving qualification. We are also considering a probability and statistics qualification similar to the one offered in New Zealand, which succeeded in increasing take-up.
The core maths qualification will be part of the technical baccalaureate, and we hope that it will be part of academic programmes of study. I hope that addresses the Select Committee Chair’s aspiration to create more of a common core that all students take from 16 to 18. Clearly, students will also be able to take A-level maths or further maths, but let us make sure that they continue with the core study that is so important to whatever kind of career they go into later.
I was asked whether the technical baccalaureate is equivalent to the EBacc. No, it is not, because it is a 16-to-18 qualification, while the EBacc is a 14-to-16 qualification. The technical baccalaureate is a high-level vocational qualification that is aspirational—it includes level 3 maths—and it is also an applied qualification. It will be recorded in league tables alongside A-level, rather than at the 14-to-16 level. That is in line with Alison Wolf’s report on vocational education, which recommended that young people follow a general education curriculum until the end of key stage 4, with vocational specialist options postponed until after that stage, and explains why we have the EBacc, which is a core qualification and represents only 60% or 70% of the curriculum, so there is still space for students to study additional subjects. That is the expectation to 16, and the technical baccalaureate, the academic alternative or an apprenticeship follows from age 16 to 18.
Tristram Hunt
In terms of the direction of travel in UTCs and the emerging 14-to-19 space, with young people beginning to think about different paths at 14, what is the Government’s belief in the UTC model, in relation to the Wolf report, in respect of total academic qualifications to 16 relative to beginning different pathways from 14?
Elizabeth Truss
As I said, we think that students should do a common core until 16, and even continue to do so until 18 on the critical subjects, which are maths and written communication, for example through an extended project qualification. The core is there, following the best traditions of countries such as Germany, which has upgraded its qualifications so that all students do a strong academic core until they are 16. That is the intention behind the new progress 8 accountability measure, which includes English, maths, three EBacc subjects and three additional subjects, so providing a common academic core for all students, plus three additional subjects.
Andrew Miller
May I plead with the Minister to alter a sentence she has just delivered? When she was describing the move from the post-16 technical baccalaureate, she said “or the academic alternative”. No, it should not be “the academic alternative”. It may be an arts or social science alternative, but she is using language that reinforces the brick wall that I tried to break down.
Elizabeth Truss
Yes, I agree to correct that. I, too, want to break down that brick wall, because we will have students doing core maths plus physics and chemistry, as well as core maths plus history and geography or core maths plus an applied occupational qualification. The key is that those qualifications are valued by employers or by universities as leading to progress, which is what we should be looking at. I am pointing out that the fact that part of it is the same maths qualification shows that there is a shared core between the A-level side, to put it that way, and the occupational side.
I think I have covered the point about the accountability tables, and I want to address the issue of the engineering diploma. I explained the philosophy that followed the Wolf review—having a common core until 16, and reviewing the league tables in that light. It is wrong to see the change in the GCSE equivalents of the engineering diploma as downgrading the qualification. We have approved level 2 principal learning in engineering for inclusion in the 2015 key stage 4 performance tables. In addition, three new engineering qualifications for 14 to 16-year-olds, which are being developed by the Royal Academy of Engineering and an awarding organisation, are due to be submitted to Ofqual this summer for accreditation.
It is important that we have a consistent message in our 14-to-16 and 16-to-18 programmes about the status of qualifications in our league table. The progress 8 accountability measure really shows the Government’s intention, which is that students of those ages should be studying core subjects such as sciences, which are vital for engineering. In particular, we need more students studying physics to do engineering, but there is space reserved in the accountability measure for subjects such as design and technology and art.
Many colleagues mentioned university technical colleges, which provide an opportunity for young people to enter the engineering profession. In the 2011 Budget, the Government made a commitment to deliver at least 24 UTCs by 2014, and we are set to exceed that commitment: five UTCs are already open and 40 are in the pre-opening phase, of which 12 are due to open in September 2013, and a further 28 in 2014 and 2015. Those UTCs will together allow around 27,500 students to train as the engineers, scientists and technicians of the future, which is transformative.
When good schools open in a local area, it has a ripple effect on other institutions. For example, the maths free schools, which will be run by universities, will specialise in maths, further maths and sciences for students looking to go to university to study those subjects. Those schools were announced in the 2011 autumn statement and are based on a model from schools already operating in Russia and China. Two have already been approved and are due to open in 2014 at King’s college London, and Exeter. We are in discussion with other universities about the development of more of these maths schools. As they will have university-style tuition—much more seminar style—in maths and science, they will also be able to offer teaching support to other schools in their local area.
An underlying issue in the whole debate is that we need to increase teacher supply in the critical subjects. Maths has the greatest teacher shortage, but physics also has quite a large shortage. The Government are offering bursaries in those subjects. Improving the professional development of teachers in those subjects so that they are inspiring is important in encouraging the next generation. Who do children listen most to? They listen to their parents and their peers, but they also listen to their teachers, and a teacher can make a real difference. Having exemplar schools, whether they are UTCs or maths free schools, will help to improve the quality of provision.
Finally, I want to look at the role of industry in promoting STEM education and engineering. As my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire pointed out, there are keen institutions that want to get involved in helping schools. However, it does not always happen at local level, and sometimes the coverage can be patchy. As we have cross-party consensus on the issue, I am keen that we work together to promote subjects such as engineering, physics and mathematics and their value to the country and to the individual. Too often, when we wake up in the morning and listen to the radio we hear such negative messages.
Peter Luff
I again pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the way she has engaged with the design and technology curriculum. Business engagement is crucial. She probably cannot prejudge it, but is she aware of how the Perkins review, which is being conducted by the chief scientist at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, will address such issues? It is a cross-departmental matter, not just for her Department.
Elizabeth Truss
I have met the Government’s chief scientist on precisely that issue. We need role models and we need to be able to communicate clearly about the key messages. The social value of engineering is very important. Countries such as Malaysia and India have been successful in recruiting female engineers. We should look not just at Europe but across the world to understand why engineering is seen as an aspirational career. It is clear that we need a concerted campaign and a concerted effort to address the whole issue. Despite the fact that we all know there is a desperate shortage of engineers, I am concerned that the message has not gone through to schools, and students are studying subjects that will not achieve those aspirations either for them or for the economy they are about to enter.
I thank hon. Members for taking part in this interesting debate in which some new ideas have emerged. I hope that we can work together with the Committee to take some of those ideas forward, and also with the Opposition because there is a degree of cross-party consensus. I am delighted to have taken part in the debate.
Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)
Mr Andrew Miller, please feel free to have three and a half minutes, not two.
Andrew Miller
Thank you, Mr Walker. I thank all hon. Members who have contributed to this important debate. It is great to see that there is a high degree of cross-party consensus on the matter, and I certainly concur with the Minister’s closing remark that we should carry on working with her Department to ensure that we drive forward some of the areas of strong agreement. It is hugely important that we try to use some of the time to iron out our differences. I certainly want to see the evidence that supports paragraph 27 in the Government’s response, in relation to work experience. The paragraph starts, “We do not believe”. It is not belief I want but facts. As the Minister has appeared before our Committee, she knows that we work hard to ensure that our reports are evidence based. We believe that better policy comes from working in that way.
Some organisations working in the field are doing a fantastic job. Mention has been made of STEM ambassadors, who are doing a great job. ScienceGrrl was mentioned by the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff). He will be interested to know that a tweet I have just read says, “We love Peter Luff even more now.” Important work is going on in this space, and there is an extraordinary degree of consensus on some of the issues.
About a year ago, I had the privilege of sharing a platform with Sir Kevin Tebbit, at that time chair of Finmeccanica, and previously the permanent secretary at the Ministry of Defence. He and I were both pleading for greater priority to be given to design and technology. I still think that there is a gap between the Committee’s thinking on that and the Minister’s.
In March last year, I shared a platform with Sir Mark Walport when he was in his role with the Wellcome Trust. Now he is the chief scientific adviser. I urge the Minister to read his speech at that conference. I have it sitting on my desk, so if she cannot find a copy, I will send it to her. He sets out the importance of science practicals, and I hope that we can work strongly together on things like that. There is a huge amount of agreement. Let us carry on working together and ensure that we do justice to the students in our schools and deliver world-class engineers for our world-class manufacturing sector.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Balance of Competences
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
My hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury and I wish to inform both Houses that following our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs’ oral statement launching the review of the balance of competences in July 2012 and written statement on the progress of the review in October 2012, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, HM Revenue and Customs and the Intellectual Property Office are publishing their calls for evidence.
The review of the internal market: free movement of goods is being jointly led by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS), HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) and the Intellectual Property Office, (IPO), with HMRC taking a lead co-ordinating role. The review will consider the balance of competence over intra-EU trade in goods, the customs union and the protection of intellectual property.
The review of trade and investment is being led by BIS and will consider external trade (third country trade) and investment. However, given that trade in goods is a major theme for both reviews, the review teams will be co-ordinating their reviews closely.
The research and development review will cover research, technological development and space. As innovation is closely related to research and technological development, it will fall within the scope of this review.
The call for evidence period will last 12 weeks, from 16 May 2013 to 6 August 2013 and officials will draw together the evidence and policy analysis into draft reports, which will subsequently go through a process of scrutiny before publication in December 2013.
BIS, IPO and HMRC will take a rigorous approach to the collection and analysis of evidence. Each call for evidence sets out the scope of the report and includes a series of broad questions on which contributors are asked to focus. Interested parties are invited to provide evidence with regard to political, economic, social and technological factors. The evidence received (subject to the provision of the Data Protection Act) will be published alongside the final reports in December 2013 and will be available on the Government website www.gov.uk.
The Departments will pursue an active engagement process, consulting widely across Parliament and its Committees, businesses, the devolved Administrations and civil society in order to obtain evidence to contribute to our analysis of the issues. Our EU partners and the EU institutions will also be invited to contribute evidence to the reviews. As the reviews are to be objective and evidence based, we are encouraging a wide range of interested parties and individuals to contribute.
The results of the reports will be a comprehensive, thorough and detailed analysis. It will aid our understanding of the nature of our EU membership and it will provide a constructive and serious contribution to the wider European debate about modernising, reforming and improving the EU. The reports will not produce specific policy recommendations.
The calls for evidence documents are being placed in the Libraries of both Houses. They are also published and available on the Government website: https://www.gov.uk/review-of-the-balance-of-competences.
Balance of Competences
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)
Further to the oral statement by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), launching the review of the balance of competences on 12 July 2012, Official Report, column 468, and his written ministerial statement on the progress of the review on 23 October 2012, Official Report, column 46WS, we are today publishing a call for evidence for the tourism, culture, and sport report.
The report will be completed by the autumn of 2013 and will cover the overall application of EU competence in the tourism, culture, and sport sectors. In all three sectors that competence is supporting only, meaning that both the UK and the EU may act: and that action by either does not preclude action by the other. The report will be an opportunity to consider this relationship, and to examine the evidence concerning the impact of EU competences on the UK’s national interest in the sectors of tourism, culture, and sport.
The report will not cover EU competences which affect other sectors for which my Department is responsible, including electronic communications, media and the creative industries. This is because the EU does not exercise specific competence for these sectors. It does however act under a wide range of competences which have very significant impacts on them. Many of these relate to the internal market in services, where my Department will be working closely with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in subsequent stages of the review. The Government equalities unit will be separately contributing to the review of the social and employment competence, on which work will start in the autumn of 2013.
The call for evidence period will last until early August. My Department will draw together the evidence into a draft, which will subsequently go through a process of scrutiny before publication in the autumn of 2013.
We will take a rigorous approach to the collection and analysis of evidence. The call for evidence sets out the scope of the report and includes both general and more sector-specific questions on which contributors are invited to focus. The evidence received—subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Act—will be published alongside the final report.
My Department will pursue an active engagement process, consulting widely across Parliament and its committees, the tourism, culture and sport sectors, and the devolved Administrations in order to obtain evidence to contribute to our analysis of the issues. Our EU partners and the EU institutions will also be invited to contribute evidence to the review.
The result of the report will be a comprehensive analysis of EU competence in these sectors, and what this means for the United Kingdom. It will aid our understanding of the nature of our EU membership; and it will provide a constructive and serious contribution to the wider European debate about modernising, reforming and improving the EU. The report will not produce specific policy recommendations.
I am arranging for “Review of the Balance Of Competences: Tourism, Culture and Sport—Call for Evidence” to be placed In the Libraries of both Houses.
Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)
The Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council will take place in Brussels on 16-17 May. The culture, audiovisual and sport issues will be taken on 17 May. The Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), will represent the UK at the culture and audiovisual section of the Council, together with the Scottish Minister for Culture and External Affairs, Fiona Hyslop. The Deputy Permanent Representative to the EU, Shan Morgan, will represent the UK at the sport section of the Council.
Culture and Audiovisual
The Council will be invited to adopt a general approach on the proposal for a decision establishing the European capitals of culture action for the years 2020-33. This action will follow on from the current European capitals of culture action which ends in 2019. The proposal takes account of our key concerns in relation to the role of the member states in the selection and designation process, and the UK will support the proposed general approach.
The Council is also expected to adopt a decision designating Aarhus (Denmark) and Paphos (Cyprus) as the European capitals of culture for 2017 and Valletta (Malta) as European capital of culture for 2018. The UK will support this decision.
The Council will hold an exchange of views on cultural diversity in the context of the transatlantic trade and investment partnership (TTIP) with the USA. This item has been requested by the French delegation. The French Government have expressed concern about protecting cultural diversity in the forthcoming EU-US negotiations. The UK will intervene to say that a broad and ambitious negotiating mandate is in Europe’s best interests in order to deliver a truly comprehensive deal that will bring substantial benefits to the economies of the member states.
The Council will also hold a policy debate on the use of culture as a soft policy option in EU external relations. The UK will intervene in the debate to highlight how we are using culture in our own external relations to promote the UK as a great place to live, work, study and visit, building on the success of the Queen’s diamond jubilee and the London Olympic and Paralympic games last year, and we will emphasise the role of national identity in underpinning cultural diplomacy and building relationships with the wider world.
Sport
The Council will receive a report from the presidency on the state of play in relation to a proposal for a decision authorising the European Commission to participate, on behalf of the EU, in the negotiations for an international convention of the Council of Europe to combat the manipulation of sports results.
The Council is expected to adopt conclusions on dual careers for athletes. These conclusions are based on the “EU guidelines on dual careers for athletes” produced by the EU expert group on education and training in sport, which is chaired by the UK. This is one of the outcomes of the European Union work plan for sport for 2011-14 which highlighted the role of education, training and qualifications in sport. The conclusions recognise that young people should be supported as they seek to continue their education while aspiring to be high performance athletes. This will offer them further opportunities to contribute to society following the end of their athletics careers. The UK will support the adoption of these conclusions.
On anti-doping, the Council will receive a report from the presidency on the recent World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) meetings in Montreal on 11-12 May.
The Council will also hold a policy debate on the role of public authorities in combating increased sophistication of doping in sport. In this debate the UK will stress that to tackle doping in sport effectively, information sharing and strong partnerships between the Government, anti-doping organisations, sport and law enforcement agencies are just as important as catching athletes through a rigorous testing regime.
Any Other Business
The German delegation will present a note on the Commission’s draft communication on state aid for films and other audiovisual works. The UK will intervene on this item to indicate that we are broadly supportive of the Commission’s new draft of the communication and that we welcome the Commission’s commitment to complete the consultation process as swiftly as possible.
The German delegation will also present a note on state aid reform—a general exemption from notification requirements for culture. Germany considers that the proposal for an exemption clause for state aid for culture should be discussed by the Ministers for Culture before the Council agrees to give the Commission powers to make such an exemption in the revised enabling Council regulation. The UK is content with the proposal for an exemption clause and we do not expect to have to intervene on this issue.
The presidency will present an update to the Council on the follow-up to the 2008 Council conclusions on architecture: culture’s contribution to sustainable development. These conclusions included a requirement for a stocktake to assess their implementation and impact. This is now being taken forward. The presidency’s update is expected to include a report on the recent conference of the European forum for architectural policies in Dublin on 8-10 May.
The presidency will also update the Council on the current state of play with the proposed regulations establishing the creative Europe and Europe for citizens programmes for 2014-20. Both these programmes will follow on from existing EU programmes. The presidency is currently holding informal trilogues with the European Parliament and the Commission to discuss the creative Europe regulation with a view to facilitating a first reading agreement. The Europe for citizens proposal is currently with the European Parliament, which must give its assent before the regulation can be adopted by the Council.
The Portuguese delegation will present a note on better connections for a better Europe in which they propose two new programmes designed to improve communications between Government and non-Government stakeholders across the EU on matters of general concern to cultural policy makers. We do not propose to intervene on this item. Given the need to prioritise activities at a time of fiscal constraint, we will expect any formal proposals in this area to be properly costed and evaluated before we can form a view on them.
Finally, the Lithuanian delegation will inform the Council of the work programme and priorities for their forthcoming presidency of the Council.
Parliamentary Written Answer (Correction)
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry)
I regret that the written answer given to the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) on 17 April 2013, Official Report column 418W, contained some incomplete figures in the table.
It has been brought to my attention that the information provided by the Care Quality Commission (CQC) in the table in the original answer did not contain every instance where information of concern about an organisation was received by the CQC. The table below shows the full number of times information of concern was received. I have also taken this opportunity to clarify that the numbers provided in the table are for all information of concern raised about an organisation, and do not specifically relate to children’s heart surgery.
The corrected answer is as follows.
Under the Health and Social Care Act 2008, the CQC does not have the responsibility for investigating specific complaints about providers. The CQC is responsible for checking that providers that are registered meet standards of quality and safety. The CQC’s role does not include investigating individual complaints about these services. Under the NHS complaints procedure, formal complaints are raised with the service provider in the first instance. The CQC’s predecessor, the Healthcare Commission, did have responsibility for second stage complaints, once local resolution had been unsuccessful. This responsibility ceased on 1 April 2009.
When the CQC receives information of concern from people who use services, their relatives and members of the public, it uses the information to inform its inspection programme and the quality and risk profile of the service provider.
The CQC has provided the following information:
The following table shows the number of times information of concern has been received by the CQC under the Health and Social Care Act 2008 for specified hospitals by location or provider, by fiscal year. The table shows data for all locations at each provider. Due to the manner in which CQC records this data, it cannot determine the nature of the concern, which may not therefore be related to children’s heart surgery.
Information of Concern | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Organisation Name | 2008-2009 | 2009-2010 | 2010-2011 | 2011-2012 | 2012-2013 | 2013-2014 | Total |
Birmingham Children's Hospital | 0 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 5 |
Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children NHS Foundation Trust | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 0 | 9 |
Alder Hey Children's NHS Foundation Trust | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 3 |
Royal Brompton and Harefield Hospital NHS Foundation Trust | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
Guy's and St Thomas' NHS Foundation Trust | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 13 |
Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust | 1 | 4 | 2 | 8 | 65 | 6 | 86 |
University Hospitals Bristol NHS Foundation Trust | 2 | 1 | 3 | 6 | 10 | 2 | 24 |
The Newcastle-upon-Tyne Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust | 0 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 8 | 0 | 15 |
Oxford University Hospitals NHS Trust | 1 | 6 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 19 |
University Hospital Southampton NHS Foundation Trust | 2 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 11 | 0 | 17 |
University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust | 1 | 7 | 5 | 5 | 24 | 1 | 43 |
Total | 10 | 28 | 26 | 30 | 131 | 10 | 235 |
Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
In accordance with section 20(2), 20(3), 20(4) and 20(5) of the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures (TPIM) Act 2011, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson QC, prepared a report on the operation of the Act in 2012, which I laid before the House on 14 March 2013.
I am grateful to David Anderson QC for his report, the first on the operation of the TPIM Act 2011. Following consultation within my Department and with other relevant agencies, I am today laying before the House my response to the independent reviewer’s report.
Copies of the Government response will be available in the Vote Office and through the Gov.UK website.
Balance of Competences
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper)
I wish to inform the House that the Home Office is today publishing its calls for evidence on the asylum and immigration report and, together with the Department for Work and Pensions, the free movement of persons report of the balance of competences review, launched by the Foreign Secretary by oral statement before the House on 12 July 2012, Official Report, column 468.
Both reports will be completed by late 2013. The asylum and immigration report will cover the asylum and immigration competences that affect nationals from outside the EU/EEA, those not exercising EU/EEA rights, and the control of the UK’s borders. The asylum and immigration call for evidence has been divided into three sections for convenience—borders and visas; asylum; and legal migration—and in recognition of that fact that the UK’s participation operates differently in each area. Interested parties are invited to provide evidence with regard to each.
The free movement of persons report will cover the application and effect of the free movement of persons provisions, one of the “four freedoms” of the EU internal market. The free movement of persons report will focus on the implementation of the right of EU nationals to live, work and study abroad and rights to social security co-ordination under EU law. It will look at articles 18, 20, 21, 45-48 and 49-52 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union (TFEU), the primary legislation which established the internal market. The report will also look at the relevant secondary legislation, which includes; directive 2004/38/EC (the “free movement directive”), regulation 883/2004 and its implementing regulation 987/2009, regulation 492/2011 and directive 2005/36/EC.
The Home Office and the Department for Work and Pensions will seek evidence to conduct a rigorous analysis of EU competence in these areas. The calls for evidence set out the scope of the reports and include a series of broad questions, which provide a framework for interested groups to contribute to the reports. The evidence received—subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Act— will be published alongside the final report in late 2013 and will be available on the new Government website www.gov.uk. The call for evidence period for both reports will last 12 weeks. The Home Office, together with the Department for Work and Pensions in the case of the free movement of persons report, will draw together the evidence and policy analysis into draft reports, which will subsequently go through a process of scrutiny before publication in late 2013.
The Home Office and the Department for Work and Pensions will seek to consult widely across Parliament and its Committees, the devolved Administrations, business, civil society and other interested parties. We will also invite our EU partners and the EU institutions to contribute evidence to the reports. As the review is to be objective and evidence-based, it is important to encourage contributions from a wide range of interested parties to inform the policy debate.
The result of the reports will be a comprehensive, thorough and detailed analysis of the balance of competences between the EU and the UK on the issues of asylum and immigration, and free movement of persons. It will aid our understanding of the nature of our EU membership; and it win provide a constructive and serious contribution to the wider European debate about modernising, reforming and improving the EU. The reports will not produce specific policy recommendations.
I am placing this document and the calls for evidence in the Libraries of both Houses. They will also be published on the Home Office website and the free movement of persons report will also be published on the Department for Work and Pensions website. Both reports will be accessible through the balance of competences review pages on GOV.UK.
Whiplash Claims
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant)
The Government share the widespread concerns about the disproportionate growth in whiplash claims and the impact they have on the price of motor insurance premiums. To address these issues, I announced to this House on 11 December 2012, Official Report, column 32WS, that the Government were launching a consultation on “Reducing the Number and Costs of Whiplash Claims”.
The consultation ran for 12 weeks and sought views from stakeholders on proposals to introduce independent medical panels and on whether to amend the small claims threshold for damages for personal injury claims. It committed the Government to review the submissions received and publish a response in spring 2013.
The consultation closed on 8 March. However, on 15 March the Transport Committee announced an inquiry into whiplash, which would include an examination of the Government’s consultation proposals.
The Government believe that, prior to taking any final decisions on whiplash reform, they should give due consideration to the views of the Transport Committee. The Government also believe that the impact of their recent civil reform programme on the price of motor insurance premiums needs to be assessed. Consumers should be rewarded with the lower litigation costs being reflected in lower insurance premiums.
For these reasons the Government have decided to defer publication of their formal response to the consultation until after the Committee has reported.
The Government’s consultation document was laid before Parliament when the consultation began. It is also available online at:
https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/reducing-number-cost-whiplash.
Balance of Competences
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
I wish to inform the House that, further to the Foreign Secretary’s oral statement launching the review of the balance of competences on 12 July 2012, Official Report, column 468, and the written statement on the progress of the review on 23 October 2012, Official Report, column 46WS, the Ministry of Justice has published its call for evidence in the area of civil judicial co-operation, which includes family matters.
The report will be completed by December 2013 and will cover the overall application and effect of EU instruments in the area of civil judicial co-operation.
The call for evidence period will last 12 weeks. The Ministry of Justice will draw together the evidence and policy analysis into a first draft, which will go through a process of scrutiny before publication towards the end of 2013.
The report will focus on article 81 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union (TFEU), using this and the jurisprudence emanating from it as a legal base.
The Ministry of Justice will take a rigorous approach to the collection and analysis of evidence. The call for evidence sets out the scope of the report and includes a series of broad questions on which contributors are asked to focus. Interested parties are invited to provide evidence in relation to the impact or effect of the competence in their area of expertise. The evidence received—subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Act—will be published alongside the final report in late 2013 and will be available on the new Government website: www.gov.uk.
The Department will pursue an active engagement process, consulting widely across Parliament and relevant committees, businesses, the devolved Administrations, judiciary and legal practitioners in order to obtain evidence to contribute to our analysis of the issues. Our EU partners and the EU institutions will also be invited to contribute evidence to the review. As the review is to be objective and evidence based, we plan to encourage a wide range of interested parties to contribute to ensure a high yield of valuable information.
The result of the report will be a comprehensive, thorough and detailed analysis of the findings and aid our understanding of the nature of our EU membership; it will provide a constructive and frank contribution to the wider European debate about modernising, reforming and improving the EU. The report will not, however, produce specific policy recommendations.
I am placing the call for evidence in the Libraries of both Houses. They will also be accessible through the balance of competences review pages on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website.
HS2 Phase One Consultations
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
The Government have today published two documents for consultation which significantly move forward our work on the HS2 route between London and the west midlands (known as phase 1 of HS2). These are the draft environmental statement and the design refinements consultations.
Publication of the draft environmental statement (ES) is a key step towards delivering the hybrid Bill for the HS2 route between London and the west midlands. The formal ES will be published alongside the hybrid Bill later this year, having been further refined in light of responses to the draft ES consultation.
The draft ES provides, wherever available, information on the likely significant environmental effects of HS2—and our plans wherever possible to mitigate them.
The Government believe that HS2 is vital for this country and will provide a huge economic return. However, I am aware that the building of the railway will cause disruption for those living close to the line of route. I am determined that this disruption should be kept to a minimum and mitigated wherever possible.
Consulting on the draft ES is not a statutory requirement but the Government recognise the importance of ensuring widespread engagement on the scheme. Best design can only be reached with the input of local communities, environmental groups and all levels of Government.
Once the hybrid Bill is deposited, there will be a further period of consultation on the formal environmental statement as part of the parliamentary process.
Alongside the draft ES, I have published a consultation on a series of design refinements for the HS2 route between London and the west midlands. Since we set out our proposed route in January 2012 we have been developing the detailed design of the scheme, listening to the representations from individuals and organisations affected by the route. This refinement process aims to ensure that we design a railway that is as efficient and effective as possible while limiting as far as practicable its impacts on people and the environment.
Many of these proposed refinements are small in scale but some are more significant, altering the local impact of the scheme. To ensure my final decisions on these refinements are informed by the best possible information I have decided to consult on my initial preferences for the more significant changes before deciding whether to include them in the final design of the scheme.
Consultation on both the draft environmental statement and the design refinements closes on 11 July. Consulting on these two documents is part of the process of helping to make HS2 the best it can be, providing passengers with the high level of service they expect while minimising as far as practicable the impact on local communities.
House of Lords
Schools: Bullying
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Brinton
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what funding is available to enable self-excluded severely bullied children to return to education.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash)
My Lords, bullying should not be tolerated. Schools should take action to prevent bullying and protect pupils. Alternative provision is provided if a pupil cannot remain in a mainstream school. This enables pupils to receive education in different settings with specialist support if necessary, including for a return to a mainstream school. Some parents may none the less decide to withdraw their child altogether from all state-funded education. Local authorities may offer support to parents in those circumstances.
Baroness Brinton
I thank the Minister for his response. Given that the National Centre for Social Research report in 2011 estimated that 16,500 young people aged 11 to 15 are absent from state schools where bullying is the main reason, does the Minister agree that specialist education and psychological support interventions, such as the very successful Red Balloon Learner Centres, are the best way of helping these children back into mainstream schooling? Can he also say how such interventions can be funded if it is voluntary on local authorities’ behalf?
Lord Nash
The noble Baroness’s pioneering work in this field in Cambridgeshire is a model of best practice, and I am familiar with Red Balloon’s work. I very much agree with her that, for some severely bullied children, the type of intervention she describes may well be the most appropriate provision to support a pupil returning to mainstream education. However, that will not always be the case. Severely bullied children are not a homogenous group and among them will be some with a wide variety of specific needs and requirements. Local authorities can commission appropriate provision from a wide variety of providers and are funded to do so.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
My Lords, with the noble Baroness’s Question concentrating our minds on a toxic problem which is estimated to have led to at least 20 suicides each year, should we not be thinking of more imaginative and radical ways of co-ordinating our approach to bullying in schools? I commend to the Minister particularly the work of theatre companies such as Ten Ten, whose production I recently saw in a school setting and which, by working with young people, imaginatively addressed this issue of bullying. Does he agree that with one survey stating that 69% of UK children reported being bullied, and now with the phenomenon of cyberbullying and 31 million school days being lost each year through bullying, we need to take this incredibly seriously?
Lord Nash
I could not agree more. Suicide is a tragedy whenever it occurs. I am not familiar with Ten Ten but I would like to be; perhaps the noble Lord and I could discuss it later. We are particularly focusing on cyberbullying. Our central thrust is to send a strong message to all schools that bullying is not to be tolerated. We have focused Ofsted much more on four specific categories of which behaviour and well-being—including bullying—is one. We have also recently funded four organisations with £4 million to work with schools specifically on bullying.
Lord Geddes
My Lords, what practical help is being given to schools to prevent bullying?
Lord Nash
My Lords, in addition to the points that I have covered, including the Ofsted framework and the four organisations we have funded—namely BeatBullying, the Diana Award, Kidscape and the NCB—we are working with other innovative provision. In my own school, for instance, we have a programme where, if a child has been bullied and wishes to be out of school for a while, there is a student centre where they can come back in on a temporary basis and gradually engage again with classes until they have the confidence to get back into school life. I am keen to spread this practice elsewhere.
Baroness Uddin
My Lords, does the Minister accept that underlying many of the statistics is the fact that bullying is also about racism and Islamophobia? If so, what are the Government doing about it? I take this opportunity to commend the work of the Osmani youth centre, which is based in Whitechapel.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, bullying is rampant throughout our society—even, it would appear, in areas such as the BBC, as we have heard via the media. Given that prevention is better than cure, as everybody has stressed, what practical steps are being taken to ensure not only that playground or classroom bullying is classified as absolutely unacceptable but that every school is required to eliminate it? Will the Government publish a document giving examples of how this has already been successfully achieved in some areas?
Lord Nash
We should consider that. We have tightened teachers’ disciplinary powers, including their powers to search and confiscate, for instance, mobile phones and remove inappropriate material, and, particularly, to search for text bullying. We are continuing to focus on these areas.
Lord Lexden
Can my noble friend tell the House what the Government are doing to ensure that children in alternative provision have support and education to a standard that is on a par with that in mainstream schools?
Lord Nash
We are focusing intensely on alternative provision providers. This Government have sent a very clear message that we expect alternative provision education to be equivalent to that in mainstream schools. There is no doubt that alternative provision in this country is extremely erratic. I am delighted to see that we have a number of alternative provision providers coming through in the new free school applications, and I expect that a number of them will be approved. A number of alternative provision providers are converting to academies. We have some excellent alternative provision providers. We have also asked Ofsted to look specifically at alternative provision through a thematic inspection process.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, does the Minister accept that many severely bullied children are very bright and can flourish educationally if they are given the right specialist intervention? However, such intervention has to happen at an early stage and all too often there is a gap between these children being identified and their being brought back into proper educational provision. The Minister has presented a picture of patchy provision across the country and said that it is erratic. What is the department doing to make sure that we have a complete picture of what is happening nationally and that those who are not providing the necessary educational provision are stepping up to the mark?
Lord Nash
I entirely agree with the noble Baroness’s point about the patchy nature of the provision. That is why we are encouraging more new providers to enter the system and set some standards. It is also why we have asked Ofsted to focus particularly on this area. Children who are excluded from school are often very bright and very energetic and we have a duty to make sure that they can be educated in the best way possible.
Lord Storey
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that schools are required to have an anti-bullying policy. Can he ensure that when Ofsted inspects schools, it does a quality assurance of that very important policy?
NHS: GP Dispensing
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Countess of Mar
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will review the rule that prevents patients of dispensing doctors who live within 1.6 kilometres of a pharmacy from collecting their medication from a doctor’s dispensary.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, the current NHS (Pharmaceutical and Local Pharmaceutical Services) Regulations 2013 continue an agreement reached between representatives of pharmacist and GP contractors setting out the circumstances under which patients living in designated rural areas are eligible to receive dispensing services from their GP. To make any significant change in the regulations would mean reopening complex and lengthy discussions. We believe that contractors’ representatives are satisfied with the current regulatory arrangements and would not support an extensive review.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, does the Minister agree that “no decision about me without me” and the freedom of patient choice have been pivotal to the Government’s NHS reforms? Does he not think it crazy that I, as a patient of a dispensing doctor, can either ask my doctor for a prescription which I can take to a pharmacist in the nearest town or have my prescription dispensed by his staff, whereas my neighbour, who might live just within that 1.6 kilometre boundary, is allowed to get his prescription dispensed only in a pharmacy in the town? Does the Minister agree that the reasons for this rule are now obsolete? It was created in 1911 when there could have been corruption between doctors and patients, and that possibility no longer exists because of the controls.
Earl Howe
My Lords, there is a balance of interests here, not least the interests of the patient. We therefore need a set of rules which reflects those interests. Patients who live in a rural area can be dispensed to by their GP if there is no pharmacy within 1.6 kilometres of where the patient lives, or within 1.6 kilometres of the GP practice. Without these rules, it would rarely be viable for new pharmacies to open to serve rural areas. That would deprive people living in rural areas of the opportunity to benefit from the more comprehensive health service that a combination of a GP practice and a pharmacy can provide.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether all elderly people who have difficulty over this matter are clearly informed that they can ask to have their prescription given by the doctor? For those who have no car and live in areas where buses are not frequent, it is sometimes extremely difficult to manage.
Earl Howe
My noble friend makes a good point. There is a special provision that allows a patient who has serious difficulty in getting to a pharmacy by virtue either of the distance involved or lack of means of communication to receive dispensing services from a doctor. Any patient is eligible to receive these services; they do not have to live in a rural area to do so.
Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, does the Minister agree that some pharmacies do not have wheelchair access? Some have steps, including the one in my own village. However, surely it is the easiest place for a disabled person to receive their prescriptions.
Earl Howe
My Lords, the rules as they stand do not present a major obstacle for disabled patients. Many pharmacies, for example, offer a free prescription collection and delivery service if a patient encounters difficulty in getting into the pharmacy premises. Under that arrangement, the pharmacy collects the prescription from the surgery on behalf of the patient, dispenses it and delivers it to the patient. Patients can contact their local pharmacies to see whether they offer that service.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I refer noble Lords to my health interests in the register. I well understand why the noble Earl does not want to reopen the issue, having chaired meetings at the department of the two representative bodies myself. However, I wonder whether the current arrangements are justifiable in 2013. Does the Minister not think that it might warrant his department asking an independent reviewer to look at the situation again, particularly from the point of view of the consumer and patient rather than of either the pharmacist or the dispensing doctors?
Earl Howe
I am sure that the noble Lord is as aware as anyone of the balance that has to be struck here. A GP’s primary purpose is to provide comprehensive medical care and treatment to his or her patients. More than 90% of prescription items are dispensed by pharmacies, which is what most patients expect. However, we must have arrangements to enable patients who live in rural and more remote areas to access medicines more easily. I think the noble Lord will understand that the arrangement for some GPs to provide dispensing services has always been the exception rather than the rule. I do not think there is an appetite on anyone’s part among the professions to reopen these arrangements.
Baroness Jolly
My Lords, these GP-dispensed services come at a cost, but as someone who lives in a rural area I am very glad of it, because it saves me a 12-mile round trip. However, the cost of a practice-based prescription will be apportioned to the CCG in two parts: the actual cost of the medicine itself and disbursement costs. Does my noble friend expect that the disbursement cost mechanism will be looked at again in the light of GPs running CCGs, where, of course, every penny will count towards the care of the patient?
Earl Howe
My Lords, those particular technical matters will always be looked at very carefully to ensure that the right balance is struck. It is open to commissioners to propose a change in the arrangements. If a new pharmacy applies to open, and that could affect GPs dispensing to patients in a rural area, we would fully expect there to be consultation with patient groups and the public. There is a mechanism to ensure that that process can take place.
EU: Reform
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Dykes
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals for reform of the European Union they will present to the forthcoming meeting of the European Council.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the agenda for the forthcoming European Council on 22 May is tax, energy and an update on economic and monetary union. Our objective will be to secure EU support for a G8 commitment to a new global standard for tax and the multilateral automatic exchange of information on tax. We will also aim to secure agreement for a stable energy policy framework that provides growth, competitiveness and investment. The Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have both been clear that the EU needs reform. The UK will continue to argue for reforms to ensure that the EU can better tackle the challenges it faces.
Lord Dykes
I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Bearing in mind the very sad humiliation and setback that the Prime Minister, absent in the USA, suffered yesterday, with a much larger vote than expected, would not the obvious solution, because of agreement by those two, therefore be to assign any negotiations to the Deputy Prime Minister and other Liberal Democrat Ministers in the Cabinet who have excellent relations with other EU member states and who would help to exorcise the Tory demons of xenophobia?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, this is a coalition Government, and we work as a coalition Government. There is substantial ground in the Government on a multilateral EU reform agenda. I spent three days in Brussels last week and was encouraged to find how much support there was for the sort of reform agenda we are talking about within other Governments and with a number of senior people in the EU institutions themselves.
Lord Harrison
My Lords, is it possible for the Minister to be more vague and imprecise about the exact nature of the reforms that the UK would wish to propose within the European Union?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we are, of course, following up the PM’s speech with some detailed work under way at present on precisely what our reform agenda should be. I will simply set out that it includes changes in the EU budget. We have already made some progress on that in the multiannual financial framework, but that needs to continue. There will be a stronger role for national Parliaments. The Lisbon treaty allows for that, and we are encouraging our own Parliament and others to work more closely together. An external trade agenda will include in some ways more European action; the Prime Minister, after all, pursued that very thing in his discussions with President Obama in Washington. There will be a deepening of the single market, such as digital single market services. Therefore there is a range of areas, including better regulation and cleaning out some of the dead aspects of the acquis.
Lord Renton of Mount Harry
My Lords, does my noble friend know yet whether other countries will make proposals for the reform of the European Union? If so, for what purpose, and what will those proposals be?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
We have already had extensive discussions, particularly with the German Government but also with a number of others. There is the potential here for a like-minded group. Of course one has to work in shifting coalitions on many of these issues. On some issues, some member Governments agree strongly with the British Government’s proposals; on others, we have others to work with. On changing the culture of the EU institutions and perhaps changing the balance of portfolios in the next Commission, et cetera, discussions are already well under way.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister a question concerning Article 50 of the European treaty. As he will know, that is the provision that deals with the renegotiation of the treaty. Will he kindly tell the House whether any member state has invoked the provisions of that article, and, if so, with what result? Furthermore, will he tell the House that the Government will publish a list of the powers that they seek to have repatriated, so that the British people will be able, in the light of reason, to determine what the issues are rather than having to fumble about in a miasma of popular clichés?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I welcome the noble Lord’s support for a reasoned debate. The question is not about unilateral repatriation but about the multilateral reform of the EU.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, I am not sure whether the noble Lord can speak for the Prime Minister on this occasion, but will he tell us whether the major changes that he said he was looking for will require treaty change and the agreement of all 27 member states?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Of course, many things require the agreement of nearly 28 member states—Croatia is about to join. There is a great deal that we can achieve without treaty change; the Lisbon treaty has considerable headroom in it. The question of whether we are likely to face treaty change in the next five years is much more to do with what form banking union takes—I am sure that the noble Lord read Mr Schäuble’s article in the Financial Times the other day—and with other areas of management of the eurozone.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, as a first step towards closing down the whole ill-fated project of European integration, why do Her Majesty’s Government not propose the abolition of the euro, with all its participants returning to their national currencies? Would that not start to ameliorate the suffering of the Greek, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Cypriot and—soon—French people? Would it not also give us financial and monetary clarity for the longer-term future?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I am fascinated by the way in which the noble Lord approaches some very complicated international issues. I am struck by the extent to which European Union regulation and global regulation go together. While the UK is inside the EU, we are playing a major part in negotiating global regulation, for example on tax and on how the global framework for digital regulation will evolve. If we were to leave the European Union, we would lose our influence over the evolution of global regulation—unless the noble Lord is such a free trader that he believes that we should have no global regulation at all.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the success of any proposals for reform that are pursued by the Government at the European Council will be severely diminished as a consequence of last night’s vote in the House of Commons, when the majority of Conservative MPs who voted voted against Her Majesty’s Government’s Queen’s Speech?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I agree that the degree of noise in the British domestic debate damages our ability to conduct a reasoned, multilateral negotiation with our European partners. We need a reasoned debate on the advantages and costs of EU membership.
Tobacco: Smuggling
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Sheldon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to reduce tobacco smuggling.
Lord Newby
My Lords, the joint HMRC and UK Border Force efforts to tackle tobacco smuggling were strengthened in 2011. This included further investment of more than £25 million from the Government’s 2010 spending review to increase HMRC’s capacity to target and disrupt illicit trade and investigate those behind that trade. Latest estimates indicate that the illicit cigarette market has more than halved since 2000, from 21% to 9%, and the hand-rolling tobacco illicit market share has reduced from 61% to 38%.
Lord Sheldon
My Lords, is it not essential to reduce the smuggling of tobacco? It affects any increase and clearly results in an artificial weakness.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I completely agree with the noble Lord, which is why the Government have put more money into this. The money that we have put in will mean that 120 additional enforcement staff are employed at borders, looking specifically at this. There is a 20% increase in criminal investigations and a 20% increase in the overseas intelligence network, which is instrumental in identifying the sources of smuggling.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the reported considerable smuggling of tobacco across the Northern Ireland-Republic of Ireland border, despite the best and combined efforts of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Garda Siochana? What are the Government planning to do in addition to reduce that smuggling?
Lord Newby
My Lords, some of the additional effort that I have been talking about is being deployed in that area. The Irish tax rate on tobacco has increased recently, so the differential is less. But there is also an issue that is currently being looked at by the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, which is relevant here, namely that the penalties for tobacco smuggling are significantly less than those for drug smuggling. There is a discussion about whether the sentencing guidelines for tobacco smuggling should now be tightened to move them more closely into line with drug smuggling.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, does the Minister recognise that this crime is, almost by definition, an international one, handled very often by international networks? Is he satisfied, and are the Government satisfied, that they are making full use of the machinery of Europol and OLAF in the European Union, and all the other structures that exist, for getting a genuine international effort to bear down on this crime?
Lord Newby
Yes, my Lords, I am. The co-operation on Customs and Excise matters is long developed, and a lot of effort has gone into it over the years. Noble Lords may be as surprised as I was to know that we have deployed staff covering between 60 and 70 countries and looking specifically at tobacco smuggling. They are working very closely with their opposite numbers in the countries in which they work.
Lord Goldsmith
My Lords, the Minister mentions additional money being put into criminal investigation. Can he say how much of that has been directed at the prosecution side? I am sure that he would agree that the threat of successful prosecution is important in combating this. Furthermore, what has been the effect of the abolition of the separate, dedicated, Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office?
Lord Newby
The headline figure in terms of prosecutions over the past few years is very significant here, and the key point. Some 3,700 people have been successfully prosecuted since 2000. I think that I am right in saying that there is no diminution in the number of cases or the amount of success that we are having on the prosecution front.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, when the last Northern Ireland Affairs Committee looked into this grave issue, we found that a very large percentage of the smuggling into Northern Ireland involved substances far more noxious than tobacco. Can the noble Lord say how much of this smuggling is of genuine cigarettes, which are harmful enough, and how much is of more dangerous substances?
Lord Newby
Whether it is in Northern Ireland or anywhere else, the people who smuggle cigarettes do, indeed, tend to smuggle other things, typically drugs, and sometimes even more dangerous things than that. I do not have an exact breakdown, but a lot of this smuggling is carried out on a large scale by criminal gangs who are looking to smuggle anything they can with a high value, of which cigarettes typically are only one component.
Lord Howarth of Newport
I welcome the Minister’s statement that the Government are considering introducing greater consistency in their treatment of tobacco smuggling and the smuggling of other substances. Will they consider aligning more extensively their treatment of tobacco, alcohol and other psychoactive substances in making policy across those fields more consistent?
Lord Newby
That was an extremely wide question. As a general principle, that is what the Government are seeking to achieve. As I say, we are putting additional effort into combating smuggling not just tobacco but across the piece.
National Health Service (Amended Duties and Powers) Bill [HL]
Marriage (Approved Organisations) Bill [HL]
Deputy Chairmen of Committees
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel)
In moving the 27 Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper en bloc, I remind Members of your Lordships’ House that if there is an objection to any single Motion, I will be more than happy to move all 27 Motions separately.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, I rise again to query the usefulness of our proposed European Union Committee, and especially of its six sub-committees. I do so against the background of our Liaison Committee’s recent review of our committee structure, which was debated in your Lordships’ House on 21 March. This revealed that there were requests for no fewer than 28 ad hoc committees from your Lordships, of which only five could be accommodated. We could not even find the resources for a foreign affairs committee, which was widely supported, nor for a committee on preventing religiously based gender discrimination in arbitration and mediation services, which was supported in writing by 70 Peers.
I will very briefly repeat the case against this committee. First, its composition remains heavily, if not uniformly, Europhile, as it has been for the past 20 years, and therefore does nothing to reflect the growing Euroscepticism of the British people. Secondly, its findings are almost entirely ignored by Brussels, which routinely overrides our scrutiny reserve. That is the agreement whereby successive Governments have promised they will not sign up to any new EU law in Brussels if it is still being examined by the Select Committee of either House of Parliament.
Between January 2010 and June 2012 the scrutiny reserve was overridden 212 times in the House of Commons and 191 times in your Lordships’ House. Furthermore, the new “yellow card” system, whereby Brussels has to reconsider one of its new laws if eight national Parliaments object to it, is proving to be just as fraudulent as subsidiarity, as some of us forecast. If the Chairman of Committees does not agree with me, can he say what has happened to the proposals by Brussels for gender equality on company boards? Indeed, can he tell your Lordships of any new Brussels law that has been avoided by a yellow card?
I am aware that noble and Europhile Lords will claim that our reports are taken very seriously in Brussels and that Eurocrats can be seen reverently devouring our reports as they go about their unhelpful business, but the Government can point to hardly a single worthwhile case where our recommendations have been passed into European law—witness their Written Answer to me on 10 April. We are told that our committee has inspired the long-overdue reform of the criminal common fisheries policy, but if you put your ear to the ground in Brussels, you learn that this was inspired more by Mr Fearnley-Whittingstall’s television exposé than anything that our committee may have said. In passing, the answer is not to reform the CFP but simply to leave it and reclaim our great fishing industry.
Be all that as it may—and it is—I have to ask why we have seven EU sub-committees when so many subjects go uncovered by your Lordships’ acknowledged wisdom. Your Lordships’ committee reports on every other subject are respected by our media and of value to our people. I have to ask why we do not redistribute the resources of the six EU sub-committees and place them at the disposal of new ad hoc committees, for which there is a genuine need. I look forward to the noble Lord’s reply.
The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, it is reassuring to know that in these changing times there are some certainties about the nature of debate in your Lordships’ House. It is that time of year again.
First, I welcome the endorsement of the noble Lord for the new ad hoc Select Committees that have been established and I hope that we will be able to develop even more ad hoc Select Committees over the years ahead. However, that should not be at the cost of the EU Select Committee and its sub-committees. Indeed, I see a slight—to be generous—illogicality in the noble Lord’s position: given his views on the EU, I should have thought that he would have wanted bigger and better scrutiny of EU matters by your Lordships’ House. Therefore, the case is made for maintaining the present number of sub-committees.
Motions agreed.
Outdoor Activities
Lord Greaves
That this House takes note of the contribution of outdoor activities to the United Kingdom economy and to the health and well-being of the population.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, this Motion is about the great outdoors. When I tabled it, I tried to include “great outdoors” in the title but the clerks thought that the term was rather colloquial and preferred not to have it. However, that is what it is all about. The previous debate in Parliament on these issues was a Commons Adjournment debate led by David Rutley MP on 5 February this year. His definition was, “adventure tourism and outdoor activities”, and that is exactly what this debate is about.
Since I have been in your Lordships’ House we have had some epic debates. A long time ago in 2000, Parliament passed the Countryside and Rights of Way Act. More recently, it passed the Marine and Coastal Access Act, and there have been many others. These are all about the great outdoors, and that is what this Motion is about today. I should declare my interests, which are my involvement in the British Mountaineering Council as a patron and in other ways, and as a vice-president of the Open Spaces Society.
The purpose of this debate is to celebrate the great outdoors, its importance to the local and national economies, and its positive effects on the health and well-being of people. I tried to put the word “people” into the Motion but the clerk said that it should be “population”. However, as far as I am concerned, it is “people”.
The great outdoors involves activities that engage the body and the mind out in the open air, ranging from gentle walks in local parks to exploring the great mountains and wilderness areas. It entails experiencing not just physical activities—you can pay a lot of money to get that in a sweaty gym if that is what you like—but landscapes, nature and open, wild places. It includes walking, climbing, mountaineering, canoeing, cycling, riding, sailing, orienteering, fell running and hang-gliding, as well as nature lovers, botanists and twitchers, and even field sports, although I would draw the line at hunting. I apologise for any that I have missed out. It encompasses walking in the local park, flying kites, cycling across urban trails, winter mountaineering in Scotland and extreme sports that some of us have never heard of. Some are very organised and highly commercialised; others involve voluntary activities in local clubs, rambling groups, mountaineering groups and cycling clubs, but the great majority involve individuals, friends and families going into the countryside and doing their own thing.
What is the value of this activity? Inevitably in a debate such as this, we have been deluged by statistics from all sorts of organisations. I am grateful to bodies such as the Sport and Recreation Alliance, the Ramblers, the BMC and the John Muir Trust, and we have had excellent briefing from the House of Lords Library. Living Streets reminds us that going out and walking is not just a rural activity. I sometimes think on these occasions that you get so much material that you could write a book with it—you cannot possibly use it all.
The value of outdoor activities lies, first, in the economic benefits. The latest research that I have found—there is lots of it—is from the Welsh Economy Research Unit at Cardiff University on the new Wales coastal path. The research unit reckons that this attracted 3 million visitors and was worth £16 million to the Welsh economy over the 12 months from September 2011 to August 2012. In 2011, the LSE’s “gross cycling product” report—an economic report on British cycling—said that British cycling contributes £2.9 billion to the UK economy. I suppose that these studies all keep academics in work but they provide helpful background information.
The social benefits of the great outdoors are huge. The Government’s own UK National Ecosystem Assessment in 2011 estimated that the social benefits of people being able to access and enjoy the countryside amount to £484 million per year. How does one work out these figures? I have no idea. I am very cynical about their accuracy and what they actually mean, but if the Government think that that is what it is worth, I am very happy to support that because it helps me to encourage the Government to promote these activities.
Natural England, in its 2011 Monitor of Engagement with the Natural Environment report, said that 2.73 billion visits to the natural environment took place in 2011-12, 10% up on the previous year, and that £20 billion was spent. We are deluged with these statistics and they are important, but there are other statistics as well.
The John Muir Trust’s research with Glasgow University looked at equality in accessing the great outdoors and wild places, and at people’s experiences of outdoor activities. It reported that these are still heavily biased towards more prosperous people—I suppose middle England and the middle class, except that this research was carried out in Scotland. It found that people from the 15% more deprived areas in Scotland—worked out on our old friend the indices of multiple deprivation—were more than six times more likely to have had no experience of wild places.
I think of the great epic accounts that have been written by working-class Clydesiders, such as the fascinating book Always a Little Further by Alastair Borthwick about his experiences in the 1930s and going out into the Highlands with some of his mates, and the northern working-class climbers in the 1940s and 1950s, Joe Brown, Don Whillans and their friends in the Rock and Ice Club. They are legends but they were always a small minority of people from deprived backgrounds going out into the countryside, and that remains the case.
We now have stories about children in schools being asked, for example, where milk comes from and saying, “From the supermarket”. The importance of education and of extending involvement across the social classes is as great as it ever was.
On the health values, one academic study in 2007 reported that physical inactivity cost the NHS between £1 billion and £1.8 billion a year, and that the cost to the wider economy was £5.5 billion in sickness absence and £1 billion in premature deaths. We know that going out into the great outdoors not only has great physical benefits for people but great mental benefits as well.
Local authorities now have their new public health roles, and public health is nothing if it is not a matter of ill health prevention. The new role at local authority level will be absolutely vital, and yet these local authorities, the top-tier counties and the unitary authorities that ought to be promoting walking and other outdoor activities to boost public health to produce significant savings in public spending, are exactly the same authorities that are now undergoing drastic cuts in their budgets and cutting their public rights of way budgets for maintaining and developing their local footpath networks. We need more joined-up thinking, and those local authorities should be looking at how to do it.
This leads me on to the question of access, which is absolutely crucial. If you cannot get into the great outdoors it is of no use to you. The Ramblers research last year suggested that 70% of local authorities have cut their rights of way budgets in previous years and that 41% of them have cut them by more than 20%. Given another round of budget cuts this year, the position now is clearly much worse. I am proud to say that my local authority—I declare an interest as a member of Pendle Borough Council, which carries out rights of way work on behalf of the county council in Lancashire—has managed to maintain its service this year despite drastic and savage budget cuts. However, we shall have to look at whether we can continue to do so in the future. Our spending on the service is voluntary, not statutory, yet we have managed to maintain it so far, I am pleased to say.
We have many national trails through our area: the Pennine Way is not very far away, the Pennine bridleway comes within a mile or two of where I live, and the ward I represent on the local council has the Pennine Cycleway, Cycleway 68, threading through it. So we are in the heart of the national trails.
On blocked rights of way, the latest rights of way condition survey by the Countryside Agency in 2000 suggested that serious obstruction occurred every two kilometres on average. I suspect that statistic is much better now, although it will deteriorate because of the way in which rights of way staff in county councils are being removed.
I sponsored a Question for Short Debate about coastal access on 12 July last year, and said then that I was very pleased that, despite the doubts at the beginning of the coalition Government on this, it is now going ahead, but not as quickly as it was. I do not want to say anything more about it, although others do. However, there is a question about national trails generally. Natural England is moving responsibility to local trail partnerships and there is a concern that while local involvement in national trails is vital and can be beneficial—I speak as someone who was instrumental in securing a toucan crossing for the Pennine Cycleway across a busy dual carriageway in my ward—there is still a need for national oversight and a national champion. The Ramblers ran a petition in favour of having a national champion which attracted 18,000 signatures. It would be helpful if the Government could confirm whether there will continue to be national oversight of the national trails.
The rights of way network never has been and is not complete. The map was supposed to be finished by 2026, when a cap would be put on new registrations of historic routes. Stepping Forward, the report of the stakeholder working group on unrecorded rights of way for Natural England has not been taken up and pursued, and it would be interesting to know that the Government are now intending to do that.
One of the problems with access is the lack of knowledge and understanding of what you can do in the countryside. We have such an urban population nowadays that people actually do not know what they can do. They drive out in their cars, park in the car park or on the verge and get the picnic table out, but if you suggest to them that they could go for a walk, they are bewildered. That is why most people who go out into the countryside stay within sight of their cars. Education, information, signage, the maintenance of well used paths and clearing obstacles from less well used ones are all vital, but are being put at risk given the present difficulties with local government budgets.
The Government’s Forestry and Woodlands Policy Statement, published earlier this year following the excellent work of the Independent Panel on Forestry, did not pick up the recommendation of the panel with regard to access to forests and woodlands. While the specific recommendation may not be acceptable, it is vital that the question of access to woodlands generally is picked up again. There were concerns at the beginning of this coalition that there were forces, particularly within Defra, who were turning the tide on access. I think that that has now been sorted out and the Government are as committed to access as we could possibly expect; that is to be welcomed.
This is the centenary year of John Muir, who was a founding father of the modern conservation movement, an environmental campaigner, a pioneer of national parks, a champion of wild places and a promoter of the spirit of adventure. I suppose I should declare that I am a member of the John Muir Trust. It is appropriate to conclude these remarks with a famous quotation of his:
“Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul”.
That is what this Motion to Take Note is all about.
Lord Haworth
My Lords, I warmly thank the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for initiating this debate today and for the opportunity it gives to emphasise the benefits of outdoor activities to the health and well-being of the nation in so many important regards. It comes just a few days after the publication of a new report by the Mental Health Foundation to mark Mental Health Awareness Week and therefore it is particularly timely. I declare my interest in the great outdoors as the secretary of the All-Party Mountaineering Parliamentary Group and as one of three Members of your Lordships’ House to have climbed all the Munros, the other two being my noble friends Lord Elder and Lord Smith of Finsbury. I am sorry that my colleagues have not put their names down to speak in this debate because they are more eloquent than I and because I know that they share my enthusiasm for walking in the hills, and we are all fully aware of the health benefits—physical, mental and spiritual—that we derive from spending time in the hills.
All three of us will be on our way to Scotland this evening, by plane or sleeper, for the annual John Smith Memorial Walk. This event has been held most years since the tragic and untimely death of the leader of the Labour Party, 19 years ago now, and involves John’s family and friends and old colleagues from politics and wider Scottish life climbing a mountain and raising a glass to his memory. This year we will be on a Corbett in the far north-west of Scotland on Sunday, weather permitting.
Since neither of my noble friends is competing with me, perhaps I might add that I very much hope to be the first member of your Lordships’ House to complete what is known in the Scottish mountaineering world as the “full round”; that is, all summits over 3,000 feet, not just the principal peaks. The grand total is around 600 and I still have a small number to visit.
I am also the organiser of two rambling groups—the Radical Ramblers and the Wednesday Wanderers—and it is from the perspective of the first of these that I wish to make my brief contribution to this debate. The Radical Ramblers has been in existence for more than 30 years; we celebrated our 30th anniversary earlier this year, on the Sunday after the Eastleigh by-election, almost exactly 30 years after our first walk, which was on the Sunday after the Bermondsey by-election. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, remembers both those by-elections well. His party used to do well in parliamentary by-elections, and Bermondsey was certainly a landmark.
In the past 30 years, we have walked very extensively in southern England. Indeed, there is scarcely a long-distance footpath south of a line from the Wash to the Bristol Channel that we have not walked. Some of the best walks have been along the coast. We have walked east from Gravesend on the Saxon Shore Way, turned right at Thanet and headed west along the south coast all the way from Dover to Dartmouth. That includes the South Downs Way from Eastbourne to Winchester and the South West Coast Path from Poole Harbour along the Dorset and Devon coasts, plus the bits in between through the New Forest and the surrounding countryside.
Much of this walking was done before the passage of the Marine and Coastal Access Bill, on pre-existing paths, some of which were some distance from the actual coast. That Act was widely welcomed by the walking community, in particular for giving legislative underpinning to the inspiring notion that as far as practically possible the public should have a right to walk right round the coast of England and Wales. In Wales this aspiration has been fully met, thanks to the enthusiastic support of the Welsh Government. Recently published research has shown that the Wales Coast Path attracted nearly 3 million visitors over a 12-month period and was worth an estimated £16 million to the Welsh economy, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has already mentioned.
In England the evidence on the ground is that significant improvements to the coastal footpath network are coming—but very slowly. Natural England has an important role to play in this regard, in co-operation with local authorities. I have to accept that in a time of austerity progress will be slower than one might like, but I hope that the Minister will recognise that progress needs to be steady and determined and that the Government have a role in ensuring that the momentum is maintained and the will of Parliament prevails.
Lots of figures are bandied about to emphasise the importance of walking to the economy. I have just mentioned one for Wales. Another, provided by the Ramblers, suggests that walkers in the English countryside spend around £6.14 billion a year, supporting almost 250,000 full-time jobs. Recently my group had a marvellous bank holiday weekend walking up the Suffolk Coast Path, taking it fairly easy over four days from Aldeburgh to Lowestoft. There were about 16 or 17 of us on that walk, including two other colleagues from your Lordships’ House. A rough, back-of-an-envelope calculation suggests that our little rambling group spent more than £3,000 in and around Southwold during those four days—on hotels and B&Bs, in pubs and restaurants et cetera. Why were we there? It was because of the coastal path.
The Government recognise that tourism is a cornerstone of growth. The Minister of State at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport spelt that out in the debate on outdoor pursuits which was held in the other place earlier this year. What is needed is gentle but firm encouragement for the rollout of the English coastal path
The Marine and Coastal Access Bill was subjected to intensive pre-legislative scrutiny by a Joint Committee of both Houses in the spring of 2008, and I had the privilege and pleasure of serving on that pre-legislative scrutiny committee. I still have the report, which I have brought with me, and the voluminous evidence which we received.
One of the submissions that disappointed me most was from Essex County Council. Although its paper acknowledged that long-distance walkers would bring economic benefits—increased trade for bed-and-breakfast owners was specifically mentioned—the general tenor of the submission was quite negative towards the concept of a coastal footpath.
Essex has more coastline than any other county in England, more even than Cornwall. This may come as a surprise to those who are not acquainted with the convolutions of the many tidal estuaries which make up so much of the Essex coast. Much of it is low-lying and subject to erosion.
In some cases the sea walls are being breached deliberately in collaboration with the Environment Agency to provide additional intertidal habitats—Rigdon’s breach, on the south side of Hamford Water near Walton-on-the-Naze, comes to mind. Much work is ongoing but precious little, if any, seems to be related to promoting a long-distance coastal path. In fact, some of this work gives the impression of being done to thwart the development of a coastal path.
I hope that Essex County Council can be encouraged to see its extensive coastline as an economic opportunity, not merely as an expensive liability. If Sussex, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall can see the economic potential of encouraging walking along their shores, with the appropriate provision of car parks and access facilities, Essex might yet do the same. I sincerely hope so.
It will be too late for the Radical Ramblers, as we are all getting a bit long in the tooth, but future generations of walkers are coming after us. The Essex backwaters provide splendid habitats for overwintering birds and are rightly popular with ornithologists as well as wild fowlers. Access on foot to these hidden gems needs to be greatly enhanced for future generations of lovers of the great outdoors.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend, who in his time in your Lordships’ House has really championed the cause of outdoor access. It was a privilege to be able to work with him on the Countryside and Rights of Way Act, and ever since then I have learnt a great deal from him about all aspects of access. He referred to the different categories of people to whom access is important. I would classify myself in the category of nature lover, and it is on that that I am going to concentrate today.
In my lifetime, our lives have certainly become much more constrained to being indoors, in cars and in front of screens. It is a fact that has been reported widely that children play out less, are driven about more and spend more time in front of TVs and games consoles. My noble friend laid out some of the reasons why that is dangerous. It is dangerous to health and, as my noble friend was right to point out, particularly to mental health. It is extremely uplifting to spend time even just walking outdoors.
I feel pretty lucky, because we did not have a TV until I was 14 and my parents thought that their big radiogram was quite exciting enough. Being the last child by a long way and living in the middle of nowhere, I thought that damming the stream was high entertainment if my friends were not around. Now I realise how lucky I was, because the love of being outdoors has stayed firmly with me. At that age I absorbed absolutely effortlessly the names of birds, flowers and butterflies that my parents taught me. The excitement that they felt at seeing a patch of sundews or an early purple orchid if we were out walking in the mountains has also stayed with me.
Only once did I feel that my mother had taken this a little far. By that time I was an adult and she was staying with me. I was helping a neighbour with his beehives one evening in a rather nice area of heathland and my mother had come along for a walk. I made a mistake, did not smoke the bees enough and got 50 angry bees or more up my bee suit. I was running about screaming when my mother turned round and said, “Shh! I think I can hear a nightjar”.
Even with a very outdoor childhood like mine, I still felt keenly the absolute thrill of our biology A-level course field trip to a centre near Pickering. I remember clearly laying out our metre squares, our job being to count the different species within that metre. The point was to learn a bit more about ecology and how species related. My children in Somerset felt the same excitement when they went to the Somerset outdoor centres at Kilve Court and Charterhouse.
Imaginative schools can make the best of their own grounds. You do not need access to vast acres to make things interesting and exciting. Just this morning, as I thought about what I would say today, I looked at the Archbishop Sumner school opposite my flat in Lambeth, appreciating again just what they have achieved by planting silver birches in the front and creating an exciting woodland entrance to the school. At the back, there is an area now full of bluebells. There are also interesting places for the children to explore with woven living willow shelters and so on.
Experiencing the real world around you is incredibly important, not just for educational reasons but for the feelings of freedom and wonder that it engenders. The first time I came across a study on this sort of thing I was still a county councillor. In 1999, a publication called The Outdoor Classroom: Educational Use, Landscape Design and Management of School Grounds caught my eye. I started to look at the schools in our area, which had done a lot. That began to increase my interest in what you could achieve with even a marginal area round a school playing field.
A 2008 Ofsted report looked at a sample of schools providing opportunities to learn outside the classroom and found that, when implemented well, those opportunities,
“contributed significantly to raising standards and improving pupils’ personal, social and emotional development”.
Indeed, if you ask a child what they remember about their last term at school, you will often get a vivid account of a school trip or something else based outside the classroom.
What are the barriers to this? There is health and safety. The 2010 report by my noble friend Lord Young, Common Sense, Common Safety, helped to reduce the form filling and red tape that had previously hampered teachers who wanted to take their pupils on school trips. The Department for Education continued the effort to reduce barriers in 2012 with some important health and safety policy statements about school trips and learning activities. It did quite a bit of work tackling myths about health and safety by explaining that its main interest is in real risks arising from serious breaches of the law, such as a trip leader taking pupils canoeing but not ensuring that they all wore buoyancy equipment.
Then there are the costs. An important 2010 report from the other place, Transforming Education Outside the Classroom, found that there was a risk of school trips becoming the preserve of private schoolchildren. My noble friend Lord Greaves mentioned that going outdoors at all can be a preserve of the privileged.
Sadly, as the report was published just before the election, its recommendations have not been taken up as fully as they could have been. The Guardian newspaper ran a round table in 2012 that found, unsurprisingly, that local authorities have been hit by cuts from central government. It was an interesting round table under Chatham House rules, so the comments are reported but not attributed. It found that some schools thought that they could meet the costs from the pupil premium and others were no longer subsidising the cost of children going on trips or to local outdoor activity centres. One of the conclusions of the discussion was that if you viewed the outdoor classroom as a classroom, it could be an essential part of the curriculum and should be given equal status with the other aspects of provision.
Of course, one of the biggest champions of all that is the Council for Learning Outside the Classroom. If I had my way, the Government would class that body as pretty much as important as Ofsted. It is the national voice for learning outside the classroom. I can do no better than cite the example of Marnie Rose, who won the Learning Outside the Classroom award as the innovator of 2012 for setting up a social enterprise called The Garden Classroom four years previously to offer free science and nature workshops for schools in local parks and gardens here in London. She encapsulates what I am talking about when she said:
“When I was a child I attended Cann Hall Primary School in Leytonstone, east London and in year 5 & 6 we regularly visited Sun Trap Field Study Centre in Epping Forest. To this day I can remember the smells and colours of walking in Epping Forest, wearing wellies and being allowed to get wet and muddy ... seeing hedgehogs close up … and eating my egg mayonnaise sandwiches. They are some of my happiest childhood memories. The school continues to run the visits to this day”.
She then mentions that her nan had an allotment, which was also very important to her. It is that sort of childhood and formative experience that can lay the foundations of wishing to go outdoors and understanding what it can offer you as a person.
Given the time available, I will not list all the organisations that do so much work in this area, but I will just mention Garden Organic, which offers all sorts of help to schools with activities tied into the curriculum. The Wildlife Trusts run a huge programme of activities for children by collecting charitable and private resources. In 2012 alone, they hosted 162,000 pupils from 4,400 schools all over the country. They have sites dotted around everywhere, so there is nearly always one near a school. They provide informal education opportunities, with 140,000 members of their junior branch, Wildlife Watch. They also do outreach work in schools. There is a follow-up to that, because lots of those children then become volunteers with their local wildlife trust. You can go out to see things with experts. As I know, it is very hard to go out on your own and work out which sort of bat is which, but if you go out with a bat expert you will soon learn.
We talk about social mobility and equality of opportunity, but I think that is meaningful only if our young people have the chance to experience and learn about the natural world around them. To the Government, I say: encourage empty classroom day. This year, it is on 5 July, and I wish it all the luck in the world.
Lord Addington
My Lords, when my noble friend Lord Greaves was lucky enough to secure this debate, because he got himself together to put in for it, he asked me to contribute and I said yes. When you talk about the countryside and the great outdoors, what exactly does that mean? It suddenly became clear to me that it means something different to everyone. We have heard from noble Lords about serious walking and long-range walking. These walks are structured and take up the day. People plan them to be the major part of their day. My noble friend Lady Miller spoke about being in the countryside.
I thought about what the countryside means to other people. Let us remember that we all bring our own baggage to these debates. My childhood was in Norfolk, which we all know is very flat. It probably does not present the challenges suggested by noble Lords who have spoken here about walking. I now live in Berkshire, which is experienced differently because of where it is. I live in Lambourn, which is dominated by the racing industry and horses. The industry’s attitude to the usage of the countryside is very different from that of the average walker. It is worried about the people who use the paths. It does not want, for instance, to risk great holes in the paths and bridleways that might trap a horse’s foot, which could lead to a broken leg, a damaged horse or worse.
The area is close to urban centres. Swindon is just over the hill. We also get people in motor vehicles and cyclists on these paths. The usage and distortion of the paths and access points mean that once again there are different priorities. My experience of the countryside usually is walking, accompanied by a dog on a lead. My bête noir is the green laner in his 4x4 who seems to get a great buzz from going up the same small bit of hilly path that cuts across a walk I do frequently. In the past, I have been told that I just do not understand people who want to experience this activity or want to improve their driving skills. Over the winter, periodically I saw the same person in a nice warm heated cabin bumping along the same path. You are quite right: I do not understand it.
I have slightly more sympathy for those on scrambling bikes, which we see quite a lot. That is possibly because I feel that there is a greater danger of them falling over and hurting themselves. The competition for usage in the countryside is great, particularly around centres of population. Of course, everyone knows that what they are doing is most important, which is intrinsic to us all. To get the best out of all those activities, we have to look at co-ordination. In addition, as my noble friend pointed out, local authorities are under pressure. It is no surprise that a path will be lost if it is not opened up or maintained. If you want to lose a path, brambles and nettles will cover it pretty quickly, particularly if it is not used frequently. How do we prioritise getting into those places to make sure that multiple uses are available?
My noble friends have reminded me of the CROW Act. At the time, there were rows with the Ramblers’ Association, which suggested looking at better services on more public paths. Someone said, “No, we cannot tarmac over the countryside”. I said, “But you are quite prepared to have expanding paths that spin out to the side, making an environmentally sterile situation with great scars running across the countryside”. Very few people can access those paths unless they are determined walkers. On the Ridgeway, someone with a baby in a buggy might have to turn around because of a huge, muddy puddle in front of them. Some management is required.
We also have the disability lobby, with which I have strong connections, saying, “No, we want places that we can use”. Then you discover that they are using small, powerful, electronic, jeep-type wheelchairs. Their level of access is different from someone who has a slightly bad leg but wants just to walk in the countryside. How do you co-ordinate that? Effectively, unless we take action to bring these people together, these conflicts will always occur. They will become quite intense at times and get in the way of the idea that there should be room for us all to do if not everything we want, at least some of that.
The economic and health arguments are fairly straightforward. My noble friend may be very cynical about the exact figure for the economic benefit, probably with some justification, but the fact of the matter is that if you are selling walking boots and giving out cream teas and coats, and the odd bit of bed and breakfast, there is going to be a benefit. In the same way, if you want horses that go out and are used for hacking around, there is a benefit to everybody, from farriers to saddlers and the people who run the stables. There are benefits to be had from this, and you can go on and do this again and again.
Those benefits are clearly there. Given that and the fact that gentle walking must be, shall we say, the most perfect form of low-impact exercise for weight control, particularly if you are not in the peak of condition and want a shorter activity, to get these benefits in all these areas we must have somebody who looks at the overall picture and tries to pull them all in together. Can my noble friend give us an idea of exactly what has been done to bring all these competing groups together to talk to each other?
For instance, will people who are dealing with countryside access talk about access without a car from an urban centre? Either you walk there or you can catch a bus. That is quite an important part of access. It once again addresses a fact that was already raised: that the middle class who jump in a car and go get the best out of this. There again, do we particularly want them to use their cars more? Not really. We would much rather have it that anybody with a reasonably sturdy pair of shoes and a coat with some water resistance can access the countryside. Better still, if we can co-ordinate access from urban centres to the countryside without using a car, it would be a massive help.
The serious walkers also have an inbuilt interest in this, for the simple reason that we will encourage more people to take up the activity. There always has to be an entrance point, particularly if you are taking this on without having a cultural reference within your family. Having easy access to a start is very important. I have no doubt that the Ramblers’ Association, among others, will have views and opinions about how that should happen but unless it starts to co-ordinate it with those in urban environments who are, for instance, planning such things as bus routes and transport, it will not have the maximum effect.
Unless an overview is taken and some people are made to pay attention to it, we are never going to get the best out of this environment. We are always going to be chasing round and putting people under pressure, who will then defend with tremendous fervour their own particular interest. Unless we can form this overview and make people sit down and talk together more, we are always going to have that conflict. I look forward to hearing what will be said to address this, but can we please take on board that huge benefits are to be had here? They will never be maximised if we always find people in those situations of rivalry defending their own patch.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I declare an interest as a vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks and as a former president of the Friends of the Lake District, and currently a patron. If we are to have a second House worth having, people such as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, are indispensable. I have the highest regard for his independent-mindedness and his consistent commitment to qualitative dimensions in our society, ensuring that we are not able, in all the preoccupations of economic efficiency and administration, to overlook what a real, healthy, decent and civilised society should be about. I am very grateful to him for having introduced this debate.
In preparing for the debate, I was interested by the quality and quantity of briefing that came to us from organisations working in the countryside and in activity there. I draw the attention of noble Lords to a particularly good brief that came from the Ramblers. In case there is any prejudice about the title of that organisation, the brief is anything but a ramble. It is concise, brief and very effective. Let me share some of it with the House.
“Walking is a major contributor to the UK economy. Research carried out in 2003 on behalf of the Ramblers revealed that walkers in the English countryside spend around £6.14 billion a year, generating income in excess of £2 billion and supporting up to 245,000 full-time jobs”.
That suggests that this is a brief worth bringing to the attention of most departments of government, not least the Treasury.
According to the Outdoor Industries Association, £9 billion a year is spent directly on outdoor leisure goods and services, including walking as well as other outdoor activities, such as climbing, and an additional £10.5 billion is spent in the local economy by people engaged in outdoor activities. The outdoor economy employs 2% of the UK workforce in rural areas and is worth 1.2% of the UK’s GDP.
It is worth noting that the foot and mouth disease outbreak in 2001 revealed starkly the extent to which our countryside is valued as a recreational amenity; the miserable closure of the countryside during the outbreak was estimated to have cost the rural economy and tourism industry £5 billion.
There is good evidence that clear, easy to use, well promoted path and trail networks influence more people to make day trips to an area or to stay for longer periods, thereby increasing visitor spend. This directly supports vital services such as shops and pubs, as well as local business such as hotels and small accommodation providers. For example, in 2010, £7.2 billion was spent visiting the countryside, while Hadrian’s Wall path has brought in £19 million to local communities since it was created in 2003. It is estimated that the south-west coast path national trail, running along 630 miles of the coast from Minehead in Somerset to Poole Harbour in Dorset is worth £307 million annually to the regional economy. Natural England estimates that the English adult population participated in an estimated 2.73 billion visits to the natural environment during 2011-12 and that just over half—52%—of visits to the natural environment were to the countryside.
Despite the popularity of countryside visits, our access infrastructure is not effectively or adequately supported. The extent and quality of public access opportunities is patchy; good-quality access exists in some areas, but in others the recreational infrastructure is fragmented, in poor condition or access is not signposted. The last national survey on the condition of public rights of way was undertaken in 2000 and revealed that on average users were likely to come across a serious obstruction every two kilometres.
In a timely way, the organisation Living Streets reminded us in its useful brief of a recent article in the Lancet. It revealed that increased levels of walking and cycling have the potential to save the National Health Service more than £17 billion over 20 years through reductions in the prevalence of type 2 diabetes, dementia, heart disease, cerebrovascular disease and cancer because of increased physical activity.
All this is powerful evidence of why we should take more seriously the economic dimensions of the countryside and what it means for Britain, but I do not make any apology for turning to another matter. I recognise that it is subjective, but I cannot believe that I am alone. It must be shared by many other noble Lords. I mean the priceless side of the value of the countryside.
What sort of Britain do we want our children and grandchildren to inherit? Is it one that has become so preoccupied with the mechanisms of creating wealth that there is nothing there of value to enjoy with the greater wealth at the disposal of the population? Do we want a Britain in which people are materially existing or a creative, living Britain in which youngsters—as an ambition, all youngsters—have the opportunity to discover themselves physically and spiritually and fulfil their lives by their experiences? For me, that is the value of the countryside and why all those who fought to make it available and enjoyable were so important.
I live in the Lake District, and when we are going home, my wife says that I become just about liveable with when we reach Preston on the train. I ask myself why that is so. I am sure many others share my experience that when I am on the west coast route from Oxenholme to Penrith between the two national parks and see the hills, the sun, the rain, the sheep battling with the environment and the rivers racing and flowing, there is an excitement and a dimension. I think, “My God, why are more people not able to enjoy this? Why have they not seen this potential in life?”. I know that when I have struggled, panted, climbed and clambered up a fell—although not at the moment, because my chassis plays me up a bit—and come over the brow of the fell, and there was a range of hills and mountaintops in front of me, it was an extraordinary experience. Why is it not more available to people of all ethnic groups in our society or to the handicapped? We should find ways to make it available, sympathetic ways that do not spoil the objective. There must be ways in which that can be done.
There is a small fell near my house. Until recently, I enjoyed going up it whenever I could. When you get to the top, on a clear day you can look one way and see in the distance the hills above Buttermere—the Gables—and Scafell. If you turn round, beyond the lake of Loweswater is the view of the Isle of Man and, on a very good day, looking across the Solway, you can see the Mull of Galloway and the Southern Uplands. I challenge anyone to have that experience and not say that life is about more than just making money and increasing one’s material well-being. That should be there for all.
The danger is not that we will see an all-out blitz on the countryside but that there will be a gradual erosion of what I am talking about. There will be what has been described as a suburbanisation of what I am talking about. The paradox, incidentally, with suburbanisation is that people like me who can afford to live in the countryside and enjoy it have to face the reality that local people are no longer able to afford to live there. There is the huge challenge of affordable housing, and how that is done sympathetically. I am vice-president of the Lakeland Housing Trust, which specialises in using existing buildings for accessible housing and is committed to the principle of ensuring that it is done in a sympathetic way.
A society like ours, with the psychological and other pressures that operate on people, needs places which are contrasts and provide peace in the context of living. In government departments and in opposition, we have to be rigorous in saying that, whatever the other immediate economic pressures and the rest—and you would be a fool to deny that these are of course important—we are here to protect this heritage and to enable it to be enjoyed by our people into the future. There must be a strong inter-departmental strategy to make sure that that is happening.
I conclude with an anecdote, which I have perhaps used more than once before in the House; I do not apologise for that, because it had a deep effect on me. Down on Windermere, there is a YMCA training centre. I was talking to a really rather impressive middle-aged lady who was utterly committed to the work going on there, and she said, “The other day, I had a youngster here from an inner-city area, aged about seven or eight. In the evening, I said to this youngster, ‘What did you do today?’. The youngster looked at me with wide eyes and excitement, and said, ‘Miss, I saw far!’. A few days later, I said to her, ‘What did you do today?’, and she replied, ‘Miss, I saw very far!’”.
That is what the countryside can mean. That is why it is invaluable. That is why those who want to ride roughshod over green-belt land because of some immediate economic opportunism when there are perfectly good brownfield sites available need to be challenged. They are destroying the soul of Britain.
Lord Bradshaw
My Lords, I add my congratulations to my noble friend Lord Greaves on securing this debate. I declare my interests: I am president of the Friends of the Ridgway and a member of the Green Lanes Environmental Action Movement, GLEAM.
When I was a member of Oxfordshire County Council, we moved to erect traffic regulation orders on the Ridgeway. This was a joint action between the county councils of Oxfordshire, Berkshire and Buckinghamshire. I was also a member of the Thames Valley Police Authority, which was willing to enforce the traffic regulation orders. The reason for these was the need to protect the Ridgeway against the depredations of motorcyclists and 4x4 sports vehicles, which were turning it into an absolute quagmire. My noble friend has referred to the fact that it is a wide way, but it was muddy, dangerous to ride a horse and quite impossible to ride a bicycle. It really was a disgrace. We managed to do something positive. I am sorry to hear my noble friend’s story of the water across the Ridgeway, but I think that that is perhaps beyond the control of the county council. In any case, we should do something about it. Maintaining a footpath or bridleway costs a lot of money, but they are so easily destroyed by the activities of a few—and I use the phrase advisedly—pretty irresponsible people.
We have managed to make some improvements under the Traffic Management Act 2005 and the NERC Act 2006 making it a little bit easier to face down the Trail Riders Federation and their fairly substantial supporters. However, there are many more things to do. I will not talk for a long time about the Peak District, but it is an absolute disgrace in most places. The noise and intimidation that are presented to walkers, cyclists and horse riders are quite awful. This goes on because no traffic regulation orders are even being sought by the several local authorities in the Peak District. The reason for this is that traffic regulation orders can be difficult to obtain. The procedure is convoluted and allows lots of scope for objectors to make their views known, which they do. That makes the process very expensive. The result is the destruction of the countryside. The noise of many of these vehicles is really quite awful in a place that should be peaceful. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, has referred to his returns to the Lake District, and it is the peace of the place that is part of the appeal he describes. However, I am afraid that the peace of the Peak District is being very severely eroded.
Obviously, the House will not want to hear a list of the technical things that need doing. I will not repeat it. However, the highway authorities have rather ill described objectives to assert and protect the rights of the public to the use and enjoyment of any highway for which they are the authority. That can be read as if they are there to protect the rights of people who use noisy and intimidating vehicles. The highway authority is probably not the best body to initiate much of this activity.
I hope that the Minister, when he replies to the debate, will give me some comfort. We ought to be prepared with the necessary secondary legislation, and indeed the primary legislation, so that when the opportunity occurs we can move forward. This will never be the major substance of any Bill, but we have in the past made quite a lot of progress through being ready and able, when a piece of legislation comes forward, to tack a clause on. I stress the serious condition of many valuable rights of way that causes immense heartache and suffering to the people who would use it if they could. I hope that the Minister might today offer some hope to those people.
Viscount Bridgeman
My Lords, I am most grateful to the House for the opportunity to speak in the gap, and it is a great privilege to follow my noble friend Lord Bradshaw.
I have been involved in this matter for over 10 years, and I declare an interest as a member of GLEAM. My noble friend was far too modest about the achievement of the Ridgeway, which was a masterpiece of leadership and communication with the various authorities and the police. He has emphasised the contrast with the Peak District, which, with respect to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, is certainly one of the most beautiful bits of this island. Ironically, however, seven highway authorities are involved there, and certainly up to spring of this year not one traffic order had been made.
It is worth pointing out that the cost and time involved in making one of these orders is far outweighed if the matter goes to appeal and the appeal goes against the authority, when it is faced with the costs of the appeal, of making good the damage and of enforcing the traffic regulation order. Therefore my noble friend Lord Greaves, who has done a great service in securing this debate, will provide the opportunity to get those local authorities, particularly in the Peak District, to look again at this matter.
I am told that the Peak District National Park Authority was only starting to look at this matter seriously two years ago, and it is said to be overwhelmed by the problems it faces. That may well be true, but it means that there is no time to lose. The off-road fraternity is very quick witted, shall we say, and very good at exploiting local authority inertia. That is one of the real problems that we face in this matter.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I, too, thank and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, on his initiative in securing this debate, and if I may say so, on his excellent introduction to our debate. He is very well known in your Lordships’ House for the way he has championed the great outdoors, as he calls it, and it is a privilege to be able to take part in the debate.
As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, the great outdoors means different things to different people. His comments and those of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, have reinforced the fact that while most people who use the great outdoors are able to get along with each other with a degree of tolerance, there is a problem. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, mentioned 4x4 vehicles, and we could have talked about speedboats in certain parts of the national parks. I hope that the Minister will reflect on the particular points made about the Peaks, which is a wonderful, beautiful area in which people’s enjoyment is being spoilt at the moment. If there is a real issue about the laying of traffic orders, one might want to look to primary legislation as a way of helping local authorities to do the right thing. I hope the noble Lord can give some comfort on that.
The great outdoors, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, means different things to different people. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, was very clear as to what the outdoors means to her. To me, of course, it means the great city of Birmingham, and rather different circumstances, but we have wonderful parks—and canals, which, in some parts of the city, meet the description by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, as open and wild places—and we have cycling paths, which are being developed. I was reflecting on the comments made by my noble friend Lord Judd that when he reached Preston he began to feel better and that he was beginning to get into the great outdoors. I use the same west coast main line, and I feel the same sense when I get into the city centre, just past Birmingham City football ground, as I look at the green spaces that greet you as you go into the city, particularly as a result of the recent development in the city centre.
I declare an interest as chair of an NHS foundation trust and as a trainer and consultant with Cumberlege Connections, as we cover health issues. My daughter is a director of policy at the organisation Living Streets, formerly the Pedestrians Association, which is sponsoring Walk to Work Week this month. Comments were made that if we are to encourage people to exercise more—and the evidence in favour of that is overwhelming—often the best way to do that is to incorporate it into people’s daily working lives. That is why the walking to work initiative is very good.
The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, mentioned the Welsh and English coastal paths. He said that although at the beginning of the coalition Government’s term of office he feared the worst for the implementation of the Act, which many noble Lords here today spent many happy months debating, he had been reassured that the intention was to implement the coastal pathway. However, I have been very disappointed by the pace of implementation. Is the Minister able to give us any words of comfort about when we might be able to see the full implementation of the coastal pathway? I gently remind him that when I took the Bill through, we came under great pressure from the Conservative Benches on some aspects of it. It is right that we press for its speedy implementation.
The health evidence of an active lifestyle, including a lifestyle in the great outdoors, is overwhelming. The WHO estimates that around 6% of global deaths are caused by physical inactivity. It also estimates that between 20% and 35% of cardiovascular disease could be prevented if people became more active throughout their lives. We have the Chief Medical Officer’s guidelines, which is 30 minutes of physical activity on at least five days a week for adults, and at least one hour of moderate or intense activity a day for children aged five to 18. We also have a 17 year-long study of 10,000 people, published by the University of Exeter last month, which looks at the impact of living in a green area, and which concluded that it has a significant positive effect on well-being. My noble friend Lord Haworth made the point that the green space effect is that you can have lower levels of mental distress and higher life satisfaction, which can still be seen, even after changes over time, in participants’ income, employment, marital status, physical health and housing type. Although we are talking about the great outdoors, and inevitably think about the national parks, of course a green space can be in a city if planners are imaginative about their provision of facilities.
My noble friend Lord Haworth is going on the John Smith memorial walk this weekend, and I wish him well in that endeavour. He showed, and mentioned, the economic benefits of rambling, and mentioned the coastal path, as did my noble friend Lord Judd. It is interesting that the national parks have estimated that 110 million people visit them each year. They contribute about £4.5 billion to local economies, and more than 100,000 jobs are directly dependent on the national parks. In other country areas one can see similar impacts. Therefore, there is an overwhelming case for the economic, health and well-being benefits of encouraging the use of the great outdoors. Again, I would be interested to know what the Government are doing to recognise that and to encourage us to see even more positive impacts on the economy in future. The next debate, which is coming up a little earlier than some noble Lords thought, is about growth in the economy.
Perhaps we could send a message to the noble Lords taking part in it, although of course I very much share the point made by my noble friend Lord Judd that although the economic benefit is to be celebrated, the main issue is the intrinsic value of the countryside rather than any materialistic goal.
My final point comes back to an issue mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller: children and schools. Unfortunately, not many young people meet the levels of exercise recommended by the Chief Medical Officer. My information is that in England, 32% of boys and only 24% of girls meet the basic levels of activity that the Chief Medical Officer recommends. For adults, the figures are 39% of men and 29% of women—so they are low, and there is a gap between men and women. There is also some doubt about whether the figures are accurate. Some people responding to the surveys were tested to see whether there was evidence that they were engaging in physical activity. This reduced the figures that I have to 6% of men and 4% of women. Clearly, the overwhelming evidence is that although activity of the type mentioned by noble Lords is good for people, only a small proportion of people in our country engage in it.
This brings us back to schools. I have to mention my disappointment at the Olympic legacy. Of course not all young people will engage in the physical activity involved in competitive sport—although we should do everything we can to encourage those sports. There is no doubt that when the Olympic bid was won, and when we had the wonderful Olympics, we expected there to be a positive impact in schools on sport and physical activity generally. Mr Gove’s decision to get rid of funding and then bring some of it back is having a direct impact on the levels of physical activity in schools. I hope the Minister will be able to say that the Government acknowledge and recognise that this is a problem that needs to be put into reverse.
In conclusion, it seems that the case argued with great passion and conviction by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is one that noble Lords have found to be proven.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend on securing this debate and acknowledge his long-term commitment to these matters. I also reiterate, as noble Lords said, that outdoor activity means many things to many different people. That is its appeal. It provides millions of people with the opportunity to participate in a diverse range of activities. It gives them much pleasure and improves their mental and physical health and general well-being. It also contributes to the economy.
Inactivity is associated with many diseases. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, suggested the figure of 6% of early deaths globally. My figure is 9%. Whatever the correct figure, it is a very serious issue. For those reasons and more, in July 2011 the Chief Medical Officers of the four home countries published Start Active, Stay Active, setting out the new guidelines for physical activity. For adults, the new recommendation is for at least 150 minutes of physical activity spread across the week. Importantly, the guidelines address the whole-life course, from early years to older people, and include advice on avoiding sedentary behaviour.
As we have just lost a Garden but there is a Gardiner on the Front Bench, I will raise the issue of gardening. That is an activity that millions of us engage in, all year round. Only two days ago I read that gardeners can burn off 19,000 calories a year. There were 20.9 million visits to allotments and community gardens between March 2012 and February 2013. The 100th anniversary of the Chelsea Flower Show is approaching next week—I declare that I am a member of the Royal Horticultural Society—and millions of us enjoy walking round this country’s wonderful parks and gardens. There were 34 million day visits to gardens in 2012 alone. As I gardened as a schoolboy, I was particularly struck by the important observations of my noble friend Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer on school gardens.
Much is being done to encourage people to take more exercise, but in England, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, suggested, six out of 10 men and seven out of 10 women exercise less than the guidelines would like us to. For children, the guidelines recommend at least 60 minutes of daily activity, but, again, participation levels are too low. I shall address how we should tackle some of these issues.
In the face of the statistics, the Department of Health has established a national ambition for physical activity of a year-on-year increase in the number of adults doing 150 minutes of exercise per week, and a similar reduction in the number of those who are inactive. This represents what could be achieved if all sectors worked together, supported by the new delivery system for public health. The ambition is reflected in the public health outcomes framework indicator for physical activity.
There are so many health benefits from outdoor activity. Walking brings important mental health benefits. The noble Lord, Lord Haworth, and other noble Lords spoke powerfully about these benefits. It can help prevent dementia in older people. I read recently of the important ways in which depression can be helped by people walking much more. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, also raised this point.
I turn to the Olympic and Paralympic legacy, which was mentioned. Grass-roots participation is crucial to a successful legacy. To support this, Sport England’s Places People Play programme is making a significant investment in local sports facilities, with more than 1,000 community sports facilities receiving grants totalling more than £50 million. It is also protecting playing fields, which are so important in enabling all members of the community to take part in sport and physical activity.
The latest active people participation figures for England from December last year showed that between October 2011 and October 2012 more than 15 million people aged 16 and over participated in sport at least once a week. This was a significant increase in sports participation over 2010-11, with more than 750,000 more adults taking part. Surely we must build on this. The Government recognise the importance of sport for people of all ages, and particularly for young people. In January last year, we launched the £1 billion youth and community sport strategy with Sport England, with the aim of creating a sporting habit for life.
The devolved Administrations are also actively engaged in promoting health and well-being via their sporting agencies. As part of that strategy, in December last year Sport England announced a £493 million investment between 2013 and 2017 in the national governing bodies of sport to deliver a year-on-year increase in the number of people, particularly those between 14 and 25, doing regular sport. Sport England is also funding programmes for community organisations, charities and local authorities, putting sport organisers into colleges, helping disadvantaged young people to develop life skills though sport, and funding to improve participation among those currently least active.
Major sports play a crucial role in the health and well-being of the UK. Sport England’s Active People survey shows that just over 2.1 million people play football for 30 minutes once a week. The forthcoming Rugby League World Cup in October and November this year and the Rugby Union World Cup in 2015 will inspire a new generation to play the game across the country. On the first day of the test season, I must not forget cricket, either.
I would like to highlight three sectors where we did extraordinarily well in the Paralympics and Olympics. First, there is equestrianism. Sport England has funded £6 million to the British Equestrian Federation, which will be used to deliver a number of activities to attract new riders, keep more people riding, and bring former riders back to the sport. I would particularly like to mention an organisation that I know well, the Riding for the Disabled Association, which is such a force for good. Then there is sailing. The Royal Yachting Association is expanding on programmes which introduce new young people into the sport by teaching them new skills in a safe and controlled environment. It is also continuing the successful Sailability programme, which supports disabled people to sail through specialist provision.
Then there is cycling. The huge success of Team GB truly inspired many more to get on a bike. The impact of the Grand Départ of the Tour de France setting off in Yorkshire next year will be immense. The Department for Transport has published details about how it will allocate the £42 million investment in cycling announced in last year’s Autumn Statement. It will comprise an urban element, which I hope will please the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and a rural element for areas that are covered by national parks.
I turn to mountaineering. I am very conscious that the noble Lord, Lord Haworth, has climbed all the Munros. I have a mixture of admiration and dread at that prospect. Of course, I wish him and all his colleagues well in the memorial walk that they are doing very shortly. I also mention the close interest taken by my noble friend Lord Greaves in this matter. Mountaineering is receiving £3 million through Sport England’s whole sport plans. Almost 100,000 people regularly take part in those activities. Figures from Natural England show that there were more than 60 million visits to mountains, hills and moorlands between March last year and February this year. They are much cherished parts of the countryside.
Outdoor pursuits can happen anywhere, be it large-scale events such as the London marathon or the Great North Run, Ramblers’ Association activities, or those at community level. We are now into the Walking to Work week, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, mentioned. My own contribution is to get off the bus one stop earlier, as part of that exercise. It may not be the most robust contribution, but I am with them in spirit. Next week is Walking to School week. I am very conscious of safety matters in that regard. But, clearly, that is something that we should encourage wherever possible.
I turn to the matter of access, raised by quite a number of noble Lords. Defra has announced a £2 million fund for the creation of new permanent access rights, following the rural economy growth review in 2011. My noble friend Lord Greaves, in particular, raised those points. The Paths for Communities scheme, funded by the Rural Development Programme for England, aims to develop and enhance the rights of way network to the benefit of the local economy. Natural England, on behalf of the Government, has appointed Walk England as its partner on national trails at the start of the financial year. Natural England has completed a two-year review programme to develop a new operational management model for national trails. During that review, we are looking into the possibility of taking proposals forward on how we could leverage the economic potential of trails more strongly. It was raised by many noble Lords that the network of national trails is an important generator of local businesses. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, mentioned the south-west coast path, which I understand generates over £300 million a year for the economy of the region, supporting over 7,500 jobs.
I am also very mindful of what my noble friends Lord Addington and Lord Bridgeman have said on these matters, and on the challenges of the multiuse of rights of way, as well as the discussions and negotiations that have to take place to try to find a settlement. I am particularly conscious of the representations that my noble friend Lord Bradshaw has made, especially about the Peak District. I had an opportunity before the debate to discuss those matters with my honourable friend Richard Benyon, the Minister in Defra, and I know that he would be very happy to meet my noble friend. He is actively seeking to find solutions to what are clearly unsatisfactory problems in that part of the world. It has been mentioned that many local authorities are engaged in this matter, but I wanted to emphasise that the Minister specifically asked me to say that he is happy to meet and that he is working on this matter now.
I raise the matter of the countryside—and how could I resist, when my noble friend Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer spoke so wonderfully about its place in the nation’s affections? Its beauty means so much to us, and binds together past and present, nature and culture, and tradition and invention. The countryside is where my soul certainly soars, but I equally respect the fact, along with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, that the urban dimension also has a soul-soaring aspect.
Our “green and pleasant land” is hugely important for tourism. Domestic tourism, as well as that from overseas, plays a vital role in rural economies. I was pleased to know that Chinese visitors place great interest in the British countryside. There is no doubting the British passion for these pursuits, be they camping, country sports, hill-walking, climbing and outdoor adventure. They all play a key role in underpinning many rural economies. Indeed, Sport England has recently announced its largest ever investment in angling, of £1.8 million over four years, with 1 million people fishing once a month.
Outdoor leisure is a key area for the GREAT campaign, as it enables us to promote the UK as a fantastic destination for adventure and exploration. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, spoke very strongly about the economic benefits that derive from outdoor activities. We received many excellent briefs stressing that point, and it is important that we should emphasise it. The GREAT campaign is run directly from the Prime Minister’s Office and celebrates our country’s rich heritage, countryside and contemporary culture, our people and places to visit, as well as our great economic strengths. Only last week, VisitEngland launched the follow-up to last year’s hugely successful Holidays at Home are GREAT campaign. There is no doubt that outdoor activities would have played a very considerable part in that success, with an additional £300 million spend, equivalent to 4.5 million nights away.
VisitEngland is also promoting outdoor activity in its work with the Regional Growth Fund and with DCMS investment. In March, VisitEngland and Blacks, the outdoor retailers, launched a £1.2 million multimedia campaign to run alongside VisitEngland’s Rural Escapes and Active Outdoors campaigns. One of the most powerful experiences that I have had in connection with children and urban schools is a visit to the countryside that I undertook with Kate Hoey with a Vauxhall primary school some years ago. It was among the most powerful effects that I have seen on children who have never had any opportunity before to see the countryside—and there they were with brushes, grooming cattle and running through fields of corn, barley and wheat. I have to say I was quite horrified but it was encouraged because they came back with ears of cereal and were asked what food came from them. It was probably one of the most effective ways of capturing those children’s imagination as regards where their food comes from and what a great place the countryside is.
The School Games initiative has been mentioned by noble Lords. It will be jointly funded by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, the Department of Health and the Department for Education. The initiative will provide more pupils with the opportunity to compete in a wide range of sports regardless of ability, gender or disability. As of May this year, 13,271 schools are fully engaged in this.
The Prime Minister has also announced details of the new school sports premium, which will see £150 million a year going directly into the hands of primary school head teachers for them to spend on improving the quality of PE and sport for all their pupils. This will complement the £1 billion already being invested in youth and community sport. I would also like to mention the launch of the Britain on Foot campaign, led by the Outdoor Industries Association, which is working with other organisations to get us fitter, healthier and happier by encouraging us to participate in outdoor activities. The Department of Health’s Change4Life programme is also an integral part of Britain on Foot.
I do not have a brief for health matters but I am encouraged to hear what the Department of Health is doing, working with Natural England, to fund the expansion of the Living Streets Walk once a Week to school scheme, which was specifically mentioned by my noble friend Lord Greaves. The Department of Health is also involved in creating Walk4Life as a sub-brand of Change4Life and Natural England is championing Outdoors for All on behalf of the Government.
I would like to mention quickly the national parks. I am very conscious that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and my noble friend Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer are particularly involved in national parks. They are, indeed, national treasures for their wildlife, landscapes and cultural heritage. For millions of people they offer amazing opportunities to experience the natural environment, engage in outdoor activities and contribute to the economy and quality of life in our country.
We have had a fascinating debate. As someone new to your Lordships’ House, it is a great privilege for me to learn from the experience that is always displayed on these occasions. I now better understand that outdoor activities are key not only to our personal well-being but to the nation as a whole. The Government recognise the importance of all these activities and many government departments are co-ordinating to ensure that the public sector plays its part. It is very clear that many businesses, communities and organisations in the private sector are equally determined to achieve more. The activities of last year’s golden summer of sport show us all what we can do. We must now fulfil the next stage by encouraging even more participation in outdoor activities with all the benefits they undoubtedly bring.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I am more than grateful to everybody who has taken part in this debate, which has exceeded my wildest expectations. I am very grateful to the Minister for his comments, which I will read very carefully. I am also grateful to him for covering in detail many of the current initiatives which I did not have time to cover in my opening speech.
The noble Lord, Lord Haworth, reminded me of when members of the Mountaineering All-Party Parliamentary Group walked in a long crocodile up Blencathra, otherwise known as Saddleback, in the Lake District. He and I, as befits Members of your Lordships’ House, were proceeding at a stately pace at the back of the group. One of the people who thought they were looking after us stopped, waited for us to catch up and asked, “Are you two okay?”. We said, “Yes, of course, we are sweeping up to make sure nobody gets lost”. I pay tribute to that group, of which I am a member, which does a very good job.
My noble friend Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer talked about playing outdoors when she was a young person. That reminded me that for the first 11 years of my life I lived on the edge of a very built-up, working-class area of Bradford—Bradford Moor—but across the main road was the huge great open air playground of Myra Shay, which had a stream going through it. We used to dam the stream there as well and fish for sticklebacks, minnows and others. I do not think that would be allowed nowadays as it would be considered far too dangerous. The important point here is that children nowadays are often provided with activities which give them a thrill but are totally and utterly safe. Many of the things that I did in my childhood, with semi-official approval, would never pass a risk assessment. However, we are all exposed to risk in our lives in all sorts of ways. Learning to cope with risk and to deal with it is very important. I do not think that we are quite getting the balance right at the moment with the whole compensation culture, health and safety and so on. I am sure that outdoor activities have a part to play here. People have to realise that many outdoor activities are dangerous by their very nature but there is nothing wrong with that. What is important is being able to cope with that danger. In many cases, modern equipment has been developed for use in caving or skydiving or whatever which was never available in the past.
I desperately tried not to blush when the noble Lord, Lord Judd, spoke about me. I thought that I would write down his comments and if I ever apply for a job again, which is not very likely given my age, I will appoint him as a reference. I was very grateful to him for his comments. I get off the train at Preston. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, cheers up at Preston when he looks out of the window. He can look east and, if it is a nice day, he will see the wonderful whaleback hill of Pendle. That is what really cheers him up when he gets to Preston.
A delightful and wonderful wheelchair bound lady lives in Colne. Her ambition in the next few months, together with her friends, is to get to the top of Pendle Hill despite her disabilities. My noble friend Lord Addington said that the great outdoors mean different things to different people. The great thing about this huge range of sporting and recreational activities is that they are not like cricket or football, they are activities where you set your own challenge and level. For one person taking a walk round the park is the same as undertaking an extreme rock climb or discovering a new cave is for somebody else. It is all to do with individual personality and that is why these activities are so wonderful.
I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, was going to lead us in a rendition of “Hills of the North, Rejoice”, but perhaps that would have been inappropriate. The great Scottish rock group Runrig has what I think is a great song entitled “I’m Alive on a Lifeline”. Part of it reads:
The rockface inclines
Hold her, leave her
Rise to glory
Over mankind”.
All outdoor activities provide the people who take part in them with that kind of experience. That is why they are so wonderful and why the small amount of government money, local authority money and other public money which goes into them has such a huge leverage—I think that is the modern word—and why we should do our absolute best to maintain and protect it.
Economy: Growth
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Soley
To move that this House takes note of the current level of growth in the United Kingdom economy.
Lord Soley
My Lords, the international financial collapse in this country and many other countries around the world produced a situation which in many ways was very similar to that of the 1930s and had a devastating effect on the economics of family life here and elsewhere. It is not something that was born and bred in the United Kingdom, as some people say. If anybody has doubts about the seriousness of the problem, they should look at the excellent BBC money programme on the subject—the second part of which was on last night, and there is a third part coming soon. One of the things that slightly troubled me about the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, in the debate on the Queen’s Speech, was his comment that,
“we need to complete our work in fixing the financial system so that it is able to sustain growth in the economy”.—[Official Report, 13/5/13; col. 143.]
He was absolutely right to say that. However, if we wait until we have fixed the financial and banking problems we will, frankly, have to wait at least four years before we can expect growth.
Although I, like everyone, hope that the outgoing chairman of the Bank of England is right, I cannot be sure. I have not argued much about whether we are in a second-dip or third-dip recession, but few people in this country or elsewhere would disagree that we have been bouncing along the bottom. Events in the euro area will be a further challenge to us, as I am sure the Minister will be the first to agree. Although I accept that there is a need to reduce the deficit, the key problem is growth. If we do not get growth into the economy we cannot deal with the deficit quickly enough. We will be constantly chasing our tail, trying to cut the deficit without getting back to growth.
Contrary to popular opinion, the United Kingdom has on many occasions had far worse debt-to-GDP ratios—sometimes up to 225%. Britain has never defaulted and has had one of the best reputations in the world for financial management, and we still have it. Interestingly, the Government were concerned enough to say that if we were not careful we would lose our triple-star rating, but when we lost it they said, “It doesn’t matter so much anyway”. It does not matter that much. If we can get growth to go back into the economy, we will deal with the deficit.
I remember a Minister—I cannot remember who—saying that future generations would never forgive us because we would be burdened with this debt for generations to come. This might be a good time to remember that we finally paid off the debt for the Napoleonic wars in the late 1990s. My worries when I was at school did not include the debt which had been dumped on us during the Napoleonic wars. Britain has always borrowed and done what most other advanced economies do; they grow themselves out of the debt problem. That is why growth is so important and what we should focus on.
As a politician I know the temptation among all political parties to blame the Government whom you are trying to replace for just about everything which has happened anywhere in the world including the weather—in fact, particularly the weather. At the last general election it was clear to me that the outgoing Labour Government had already lost the argument on this subject. The then Conservative Opposition and the Liberal Democrats were going round saying that this was the most desperate situation that we in this country had ever been in, but that was not true. It was not true that the deficit was the key problem. The international financial collapse caused the problem.
We talked ourselves down in that election. Once you do that, people will naturally pull back. They will not spend money—they tend either to save it or to wait to see what will happen, and that adds to the problem. The debt-to-GDP ratio showed only small changes between 1970 and 2010, and a number of economists are now stating that much more clearly. They say that history suggests that the current radio of debt to GDP is not alarming. If my views on that do not satisfy noble Lords, let me quote the IMF’s World Economic Outlook of October 2012. It states:
“Throughout the past century, numerous advanced economies have faced public debt burdens as high, or higher, than those prevailing today”.
That was the view of people such as Robert Neild, the Cambridge economist, and others who have said that the debt-to-GDP ratio is not alarming. That does not mean that it is desirable or that we should not reduce it, but it suggests that we have had the argument the wrong way round for the past few years, and that is what troubles me. I suppose that I am a natural Keynesian, and I felt that although we had to give the Government space in their deficit-reduction programme, the position should have been reversed and we should have been saying that growth comes first. If you do not get growth, your debt problems will be far worse.
I should like to provide another quote from the IMF’s World Economic Outlook. It states:
“First, support for growth is essential to cope with the contractionary effects of fiscal consolidation. Policies must emphasise the resolution of underlying structural problems within the economy, and monetary policy must be as supportive as possible”.
Again, I am not arguing that getting the right public sector and public debt relationship is unimportant. I am saying that you should use your fiscal policies to underpin policies for growth. The coalition’s focus on cuts in expenditure is a repetition of the 1930s, and only recently has it begun seriously to address growth. That is what I should like us to do a little more, and I hope that the debate will focus on it.
The key question is, “How do we get growth?”. Recently, the Government have rightly been saying that we need to do more on infrastructure, and they have mentioned a range of issues. I should like to deal with a couple of those issues.
It is beginning to be recognised—certainly by many economists—that you need to have a more balanced approach to how much you borrow in order to invest. It is no good borrowing simply to pay off debt. We all know that and no one has any doubts about it. Borrowing to invest, as long as that investment is leading to growth, is not a bad thing. That balance is right.
I agree that infrastructure is a crucial element that gives us opportunities. The United Kingdom’s infrastructure is not as good as it ought to be. I refer to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, who said:
“We are committed to creating a single local growth fund for the key areas of skills, housing and transport. The final size of the fund will be set out at the spending round next month”.—[Official Report, 13/5/10; cols. 140-41.]
I look forward to that. Quite rightly, he focused on two of the big issues that are always good for generating growth: transport and housing.
What has troubled me not just about the current Government but for a considerable time is that when they talk about transport, they are referring to rail and road and do not mention aviation. The Minister knows my strong views on Heathrow. Before he gets worried, I should tell him that I am not about to embark on a debate on Heathrow; this issue goes much wider. I have always argued that growth in aviation is crucial, and is important for the regions. The Government have placed great emphasis on high-speed rail. I agree with that and do not have a problem with it. However, high-speed rail deals with the transport of people, not of goods, whereas every aircraft that flies out of this country with passengers also usually has in its belly large quantities of high-value export goods. I shall mention Heathrow once and try not to mention it again. Only 0.001% of flights in or out of Heathrow are cargo aircraft. All the cargo comes and goes in passenger aircraft. The same is true for all our local regional airports. If you want to encourage exports, we must allow aviation to grow.
Therefore, my first question to the Minister is: are the Government taking seriously enough the contribution that aviation can make to growth? There is enormous potential there. It is no good telling people in Exeter that the high-speed rail line will help them because it will not. However, flights from Exeter airport to other airports around the world will help them. Birmingham Airport, which is currently trying to expand, needs to have permission to go ahead—again, because Birmingham can export more if it has growth. Therefore, the growth factor is very important.
There are two other points that I want to make in relation to aviation. First—again, the Minister will have heard this before—air passenger duty is a disaster for the aviation industry. It is massively outpricing us in competition with other countries and other airlines. We need to reduce air passenger duty. I know that we cannot do that quickly—it cannot be done overnight—but the duty is a major hindrance to the expansion of growth for the British aviation industry and that presents it with very real challenges at the moment.
The second thing that I have to say about aviation also applies to other areas of transport. One reason that aviation has not been focused on by successive Governments in the way that it should have been is the fear of climate change. I yield to no one in my concern about climate change. I first wrote about it back in the early 1980s and I still have the same views about it. However, I do not believe that you deal with it by closing down aviation. There is a terrible warning here from the way we conceded to the green movement the argument about nuclear power. Only now are we catching up with the green movement and saying, “Yes, we must have nuclear power”, when the whole argument against it was what held us back early on. The same is happening with aviation and we have to be very alert to that. All sorts of efforts are now being made—frankly, they should have been made earlier and I have been very critical of the aviation and aerospace industry on this—to deal with climate change issues through, among other things, fuel research, which is showing real possibilities.
The other area that I want to touch on is housing, which every political party is saying is important. We now have the Green Investment Bank and a business investment bank. It may interest the noble Lord, Lord Newby, that many years ago in the 1980s, when I was dealing with housing in the House of Commons, we put forward a proposal for a housing investment bank. The proceeds from the sale of council houses, which were very high at the time, would be placed into a housing investment bank, which would then receive matched money from the building societies and big building companies. They were very positive about that process and they wanted to do it. Unfortunately, the receipts from council house sales were simply used to cut taxes, whereas if they had gone into the investment programme, that would have been far more effective. I ask the Minister to look again at this possibility.
I am in favour of selling public housing up to a point. However, that housing must then be replaced, and you do that by having sufficient income from the sales to fund a replacement programme. That would enable us to have a steady housebuilding programme, instead of what tends to happen in this country, which is a lurching from excessive building to none at all. We have gone backwards and forwards with some pretty disastrous consequences, as we saw in the 1950s and 1960s.
My final point concerns the other area on which we need to be much more focused—the emerging countries. We have tended to talk about just the Brazil, Russia, India and China group but we really must not forget Africa. I have seen some very interesting articles. The other week, Chuka Umunna in the House of Commons made a very good point about this. Nigeria has a dramatically growing economy, as have many other countries in Africa with which we have good relationships. There is an expanding market there, particularly in high-tech goods. It is high-technology that can drive our expansion.
In conclusion, I hope that today we will look at how we can achieve growth. Over the past year or two, I have heard the Government shift their position away from simple deficit reduction to growth. Very recently, I have heard some of their suggestions on infrastructure, transport and housing in particular, and I should like the Government to say a bit more today about how they are going to deliver that growth. That is the key question. We could bounce along the bottom for a long time yet but, if we get growth going in the economy, frankly we will do what Britain did very successfully in the 19th and 20th centuries, which was to grow itself out of its economic problems. That is what most advanced countries do. I have the IMF on my side on this, as well as a large number of economists, so I think that I have quite a strong argument.
Lord Marland
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for organising this excellent opportunity to debate this matter. It is critical that we have debates such as this, and they are not to be confused with the manifest subjects involved with the Queen’s Speech. It is a slight shame that it is taking place in the graveyard slot of lunchtime on a Thursday but it is an important issue.
I also wish to apologise to the House for the fact that I have to leave after I have spoken because my boss has called me. There are very few people to whom I say yes but he is one of them. Therefore, I give my apologies if I have to leave.
The Prime Minister has put trade and the enhancement of British trade at the heart of economic recovery. I congratulate him on the leadership he has shown—he has led huge delegations all over the world. Wherever he goes abroad, he takes a very big delegation with him to further those efforts.
I have the honour of being the Prime Minister’s trade envoy and have visited roughly 30 countries in the past 18 months. To respond to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley, I have been to Mozambique, Angola, two or three times to Algeria, Morocco and Libya. I am planning on being in Gabon in the next month and, I hope—if that is the appropriate word—Ghana in July. The noble Lord is absolutely right: Africa is an important area for us. It has been left unnurtured for far too long by successive Governments. We have been complacent over it and so we are going into overdrive. My noble friend Lord Green, the Minister for Trade and Industry, has also travelled extensively, taking big delegations with him.
We have reorganised UK Trade & Investment with a change of board, having brought in commercially focused people from industry. We have reorganised the way that they interface externally, working with our ambassadors, who are being driven by the Foreign Office to be much more outward-focused. We have set up a trade envoys programme. We have eight trade envoys from across the parties—Liberal Democrats, Labour, Cross Benches and Conservatives—to focus on territories on which we have not focused previously. We have a business ambassador’s programme, where business ambassadors who are leaders of industry across the country are sent to various countries, and I am also honoured to chair that programme.
I note in her place the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, whom I would call a friend, although she is not a “noble friend”. She is a friend to this country in the work that she does overseas, particularly leading delegations in the Gulf region. She has just returned from Saudi Arabia—a vital market.
We are establishing a Ministers travel programme, where Ministers will continue to lead trade programmes, and of course we have invested time and money in making the export guarantee fund a very flexible fund to support businesses.
Everywhere I travel, I discover that people want the British offering. One feature of the Olympics was that they gave us self-confidence. They reminded us of the incredible bandwidth of skills that we have as a nation, from airlines to the arts, and from music to mechanical engineering and so on. The Olympics showcased those skills not only to ourselves but to the rest of the world. Excepting that bandwidth of skills, why do people want to do business with Britain? Simply, we are a transparent nation. Transparency is the key to how we do our business.
I had my misgivings about the Bribery Act but now I am completely behind it because it sets us above other countries which continue to indulge in corrupt dealings. It sets Britain apart, and that is something of which we should be unbelievably proud. Indeed, we can take our open government programme and what we have done through the Bribery Act to overseas countries which are desperately trying to find a way through this corruption. Of course, we also have the rule of law, which is a fundamental basis for doing trade and is being adopted by many countries.
I shall not dwell for too long on the headline deals that have been done in the past few months alone but they include a £10 billion contract for Shell in Abu Dhabi, a new cybersecurity programme in Kuwait, an award for the new Kuwait airport, companies being appointed for the metros throughout the Arab world, and warships being sold to Brazil to protect their coastlines against piracy. All manner of big sums are being generated through this trade activity.
The Government are creating the weather. Government is an enabler and it has to create the weather. In many ways, we are turning a marathon into a sprint. That is what we are driving ourselves to do. As Mervyn King says, there are signs of good news out there. However, the key point he makes is that this is not a time for complacency, and he is right. A damning statistic from the Federation of Small Businesses shows that only 20% of its members’ businesses export. That is a terrifying figure for a trading nation which, as the noble Lord, Lord Soley, mentioned, for years has gone out and exported its trade. Another damning statistic is that 70% of small and medium-sized businesses export only when someone from abroad has knocked on their doors to buy something. This is a damning and frustrating challenge not only for us in government but for the businesses themselves.
My plea to everyone in this House, the other House and elsewhere is to persuade the local companies you have got to know to get out there and trade and make investments overseas. We are doing our best to take the horses to water but they have to drink it. They will only do that if they work through UK Trade & Investment and the various business associations in which many Members of this House are involved, where they allocate funds for export and travel, and ultimately take the risk. However, the most important thing is that we have a Government focused like no other on helping them to trade.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I join in the congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Solely, on obtaining this debate. He is absolutely right—there is no more important issue than growth in our economy—and we in this Parliament and the Government have to focus directly on these crucial issues.
However, I would challenge him on his analysis of how we got where we are today. I fully accept that a financial crisis came—some say like a meteor out of the sky; others, who have looked at the banks, thought it was predictable—and hit us hard in 2007-08. This country was in no position to sustain that blow. We were at a point where the former Labour Government had raised public spending and public borrowing to a point where it offered no resilience. I can understand how the Labour Government got there. They bought into the idea that boom and bust had ended and that there would be a constant flow of substantial tax receipts coming from the financial services industry and that they therefore could let loose the leash on both spending and borrowing because there would be a constant flow of money coming into the Treasury. They should have recognised that we were at the top of an economic cycle—we do not end boom and bust; economies cycle—and every Government have prudently to take cognisance of that. So that is the situation in which we found ourselves.
We also found through that process that the underlying British economy was in very weak shape. We had become so dependent on financial services that we had bled much of the life out of our other activities, both in the service industries and manufacturing industries. We had allowed the balance to swing so heavily to London and the south-east that much of the north was being sustained only by having public service activities there—the private sector had not been building and thriving for a long time—and, worst of all, we had failed to recognise for more than a generation that the backbone of the economy is our small businesses. Twenty per cent of all the small businesses in the EU are in the UK. This is a thriving location for small businesses but it has not been receiving the kind of support that it needs to grow, to take risks, to create new jobs and to build its export base.
For the past few years, the rebalancing of that shift has been the work of this coalition Government. I am encouraged by the comments of Sir Mervyn King and the CBI made earlier in the week which suggest that they can finally see that we are going into a modest recovery. It is very dangerous in this current unstable international environment to focus too much on green shoots, but the same verdict is coming back from small businesses, from the accountants who spend time up and down the country with businesses and even from the commercial section of the banks. They identify that the beginnings of a real recovery are under way, in part because of the rebalancing and redevelopment of those abandoned areas. This work will turn out to be absolutely crucial.
I have often said before that the neglect that most appalled me, not only during the Labour years but during the Conservative years before, was in the area of building skills among our young people. The fact that there was a lack of apprenticeships and that the whole apprentice structure had been allowed to collapse was irrelevant in many people’s minds. There has been a turnaround in that area: more than 1.25 million young people are now either in or have gone through apprenticeships in the past couple of years. That will be important.
We all thought that any debate introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Solely, would undoubtedly touch at some point on aviation and I admire his self-restraint in not addressing the issue of Heathrow. I shall therefore limit my comments on this issue out of common respect to his self-restraint.
However, I wonder whether he recognises the inconsistencies in his own position. I agree that regional aviation capacity is the key issue we must look at. As he knows, that is not hub aviation capacity but very much point-to-point. One of the issues that the Davies Commission will have to take on is whether we should try to build a single London-style hub as our primary connection both within the country and outside. Should we have one main hub and a number of minor hubs? Should we build a balance between one hub and a number of point-to-points? We have to come up with a solution that manages and supports the rebalancing necessary for our economy. That means that it must service the north and the west as well as London and the south-east. That is one of the arguments that leads people to think that much of the London hub should now be shifted somewhere between London and Birmingham, potentially alongside an HS2 route, but there are a number of other visions.
The noble Lord also stressed the fact that aviation, usually thought of as passenger aviation, plays a crucial role in freight. I fully accept that. However, you cannot drag those words out of most of the aviation industry because it becomes impossible to argue for the use of Heathrow, an incredibly expensive and scarce resource, when you are doing a point-to-point freight movement. So that issue has to come into the picture and it will be interesting to see where it goes.
There are two issues I wish to address before I sit down. I shall certainly not use my full time today. One is an issue which is sometimes not addressed in the context of economic growth—that is, tax avoidance. I recommend a speech made on this yesterday in the other place by my colleague, Ian Swales, MP for Redcar. As he was discussing the problem that we face—the inherent reality that most multinational companies now effectively enjoy a corporation tax rate of zero because they export their profits to somewhere such as Luxembourg or outside the G20—he said that one of the impacts of that is greatly to disadvantage those very small and medium-sized businesses in our economy that we need to grow for the future. For example, a chain of three book shops within my local community have pasted on their walls that each book shop pays for a trainee nurse through its taxes on an annual basis, whereas Amazon, their great rival, effectively contributes nothing. Yet they face this price differential because, in effect, the international community has provided a taxpayers’ subsidy to the large multinational entities. We have to tackle the tax avoidance problem for that reason in addition to the failure of those companies to contribute as they should to the public spending that, as it were, pays for the society in which they participate and provides the basis for many of their sales. I think that the level playing field argument is an incredibly powerful one.
In my last comments I wish to pick up on the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Marland, on exports. I agree completely that building the exports of our SMEs is absolutely vital. However, sometimes I disagree with BIS about its focus on saying to small businesses, “Come on, go to China, Brazil and India”. It is wonderful if small businesses can export to those countries and I have no problem with that, but when you talk to these businesses, you find that many of them have had very bad experiences when they have tried to do it. It is quite risky to export to China if you have a patent you wish to protect. It is very difficult to export to the United States because of all its non-trade barriers. I have talked to quite a few small businesses, but I shall not use their names because they are quite hesitant about this, which have found that in the end they had to form a joint venture to sell into the United States and essentially surrender most of the upside of their additional revenues and the exports from their US operations. Instead, they just accept royalty payments because, without a joint venture relationship, it is impossible for them to operate on American soil.
From the small business perspective, the ongoing debate that David Cameron was leading on in the United States in his discussions with President Obama on an EU/UK trade negotiation to tackle many of these non-tariff barriers, is absolutely crucial. There is a real need for an awareness that this is the kind of thing we can tackle only as part of the EU. I lived in the United States for 20 years and I know a lot of people in the Administration. The chance that they would ever waste time on a UK/US debate along these lines is close to zero. I suspect the same for China and, indeed, for the various developing economies of the world.
We are at an exceedingly exciting point where there is great potential. We are starting to see movement in the economy, but it is crucial that we have sustainable growth, not growth created by a sudden surge in public spending that sparks a short-term response and transient behaviours. We need long-term, sustainable growth by getting new businesses off the ground and encouraging them to export. Any discussion is too much to try to include in this speech, but it is also crucial that the banks back up that growth with a credit supply, because it will be in huge demand as businesses begin take off when they see the end of the recession and can move into a much more investment-focused and expansionary mode. We are at a very interesting point at which the decisions and the way we shape this growth must be such as to set us up well for future years.
Lord Bhattacharyya
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Soley on securing this debate on economic growth. We all have an interest in this subject, but I should declare my interest as chairman of the Warwick Manufacturing Group at the University of Warwick. For more than three decades, we have been working very hard, helping companies to grow. A week ago the gracious Speech pledged that the Government would focus on, “building a stronger economy”—fine words, even if they are undermined by the recent rows about referendums. Britain’s economic situation is extremely weak. Yes, we have avoided a triple-dip recession and it may even be that the double-dip recession will be revised away, but that is little to boast about. After five years of recession, our GDP remains 2.6% below where it was before the crash. Our productive sectors have struggled, with manufacturing gross value added down 10% over the past 10 years. Construction has fared worst of all, falling into deep decline in 2012, and it is now almost 20% down on 2008. Nor will foreign growth rescue us. The European Commission, the IMF and the OECD all say that the eurozone will decline this year. Finally, devaluation cannot solve our problems. Sterling is almost a quarter below its peak, but many exporters are facing increased costs from raw materials and components, which means that we are not benefiting from the short-term competitiveness we enjoyed in earlier devaluations.
Our problems are deep and significant and they require great attention, but if we take the right decisions, they can and will be resolved. I have spoken many times in this House about the need to take a long-term view. The challenges we face have arisen as the result of years or even decades of too little innovation, too little investment, undercapitalisation and not enough support for the physical and social infrastructure which can deliver lasting growth. We must all pull together to change this. Step by step and day after day, we must follow a steady path that supports innovation, investment and infrastructure. I am encouraged that the leader of my party and the shadow Chancellor speak regularly on these issues, and commissioned Sir George Cox’s excellent report on long-termism. Even the Mayor of London now talks about the need to take a long-term view on growth, but unfortunately the Government seem mostly to be focused on the tactical short-termism that got us into this mess. We will not get a recovery from immigration crackdowns and referendums.
To be fair, the Government are doing some good things, mostly at the urging of the Business Secretary. We share the aim that all young people should take up training apprenticeships or go into higher education on leaving school, and I congratulate the Government on pressing ahead with high-speed rail. It is politically difficult, but necessary. While the science budget is declining in real terms, the Government have at least tried to protect it. However, sadly, this is where their long-term vision ends. Despite all the talk about growth, I searched the gracious Speech in vain for a mention of science, technology or research. In the press briefing that accompanied the speech, we heard much about scraping the barnacles off the boat, but these issues are not barnacles, they are the materials from which the boat is built. I want our Government to take a practical, long-term approach to creating growth.
One way that can be done is by supporting reshoring, which when I put it in plain English means bringing back the jobs that left Britain due to globalisation and cheap labour overseas. In both manufacturing and services, rising wages abroad and technological innovation at home could mean that these jobs come back, and we should make such a return our priority. A recent RSA/Lloyds Banking Group report, Making at Home, Owning Abroad, argues that more than 200,000 jobs could be created through reshoring. The question is less whether jobs can come back to the West, but which countries they will return to. How can we encourage inward investors to choose Britain? The first way is through procurement.
In America, there is an expectation that those who get government help will return their back-office and IT functions to the US. That is why “Buy US” clauses have appeared in many bailed-out companies’ purchasing contracts. Today, a combination of informal pressure, immigration rules, tax changes and US wage competitiveness means that companies such as General Electric and General Motors are creating IT jobs in America, not in India. Indian outsourcing companies are facing tough times because of this. Their growth and profits are down, and the outsourcing market is projected to stagnate or even decline. Yet the UK seems to be uninterested in supporting the reshoring of its own money. The NHS spends millions of pounds on offshoring IT and data management. For example, half of the NHS shared business services staff are based in India. If we were to demand that such direct government spending was done in the home market, we would immediately create many hundreds of thousands of jobs in Britain.
The next rule of procurement is that it should act as a capacity and innovation builder for British business. Many people ask me, “Why can’t we have a Google or an IBM in this country?”. Britain is a small country. The reason those companies succeeded in the beginning was by growing in their internal market. Government procurement must be such that it helps small companies to create an internal market and then grow. If we use procurement to support innovation through a major extension of the Small Business Research Initiative, we would help UK businesses develop new products and services for both the home and the export markets. As I said, we are a relatively small country. We do not have the critical mass to support innovation in the domestic market unless we focus resources on it directly. This is needed to help small companies grow.
Next, we must transform our approach to skills so that investors want to create jobs in Britain. The government response to the Richard report was full of warm words but kicked the question of funding for skills into the long grass. We need to find a better response. We do not need government to spend more but our businesses to invest in their people. We should create sector training boards, with the power to issue training levies, as they do in construction, so that all firms have a common incentive to invest in their employees. If we approach skills in this way, we might be able to rid ourselves of our cumbersome skills bureaucracy. Some object that this means a new tax on business. I understand this concern, but if firms train their people they will more than get that money back.
Perhaps I might make a counterproposal. I am no fan of corporation tax. As the IFS says, much of corporation tax is,
“passed on to workers in the form of lower wages”.
Ideally, I would like to see corporation tax fall to 15%. Of course, that would be expensive and people would argue that it cannot be done. So why not reduce or even abolish corporation tax for firms with a tax liability of less than £10,000 which are subject to sector skills levies? Such firms contribute only £2 billion of corporation tax receipts—less than 5% of the total—but they represent more than half the companies that pay the tax and their profit is essential to the future growth of Britain.
The next challenge is to help our businesses secure finance. At the micro level, I have much sympathy with the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Young, in his report Growing Your Business. I agree that support for small business should be extended, with start-up loans made available to all entrepreneurs, as should the enterprise finance guarantee. But we need to go much further. As the noble Lord, Lord Young, says,
“when banks started to remove the manager from their branch network they inadvertently broke many of their links with SMEs. This has had a disastrous effect”.
I have long argued for a dedicated business bank with real scale, preferably with a regional or sectoral focus, so that lending decisions are made by bank managers who know their businesses. Such a bank could be focused on the sectors supported by innovation catapults, thus making investing in British innovation and British production in key sectors more attractive to both inward and domestic investors. I am delighted that my party has embraced this proposal as part of its policy review.
Next, if we are to reshore contracts in advanced sectors, we need to transform our overall innovation capability. This means reforming our research funding councils and boosting innovation agencies such as the Technology Strategy Board. We pride ourselves on being a great nation for science, but our real-terms R&D budget is declining and we are doing little to get the maximum economic benefit out of what we spend. I am pleased that our research councils are giving more attention to economic impact, but we have to do much more to ensure that the research we fund contributes to economic growth.
Let us compare our approach with America’s. In his State of the Union address, President Obama said:
“Our first priority is making America a magnet for new jobs and manufacturing”.
He announced a $1 billion investment in innovation institutes to encourage the return of manufacturing. In Britain we have to fight for years for an extra few million. Whether it is the huge American investment in innovation, the Canadian reform of research councils to make applied research their top priority or Germany’s Fraunhofer Institutes, KfW and Sparkassen, it is other countries that are trying to secure long-term growth through industrial innovation. We are far behind, and falling further. All parties share the blame for this, yet there are many on all sides of your Lordships’ House who regret these missed chances.
Outside politics, this agenda is widely shared. Last week I attended a seminar at the Royal Society, where scientists, entrepreneurs and business leaders discussed how to bridge the academic-industrial divide to support growth. For the first time the Royal Society has taken on that challenge. There is a real opportunity for growth here, if only we seize it. We should use procurement to stimulate demand and get scale for innovation; push firms to invest in skills, and give tax incentives to smaller firms; use business banks to support innovation investment in sectors and regions with high growth potential for reshoring manufacture and services; and refocus research funding and increase applied technology funding to encourage both inward and domestic investment in innovation. Of course, the obvious question is: how we can pay for such a programme? It is not easy but it could be done.
Today there exists a rare opportunity to borrow cheaply to invest for the future. We should take it. However, that will not last long and we will certainly need to be fiscally very tight for a long time. The key is gradually to switch resources from unproductive to productive spending—what used to be called the costs of failure. That means pay restraint, reducing welfare and housing benefits over time, and perhaps removing benefits from those on above-average incomes. It may even mean more co-payments for public services so people understand the cost of the services they use.
None of this will be easy, but if sustained restraint helps encourage the job-creating, technology-led growth we need, it will all be worth while. Our growth problems are significant and real. But by backing the skills, ingenuity and ability of our people, they can—and will—be solved.
Lord Bates
My Lords, it is always a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, who has done so much to promote Britain at home and abroad in terms of economic growth. I listened very carefully to what he said and I think a lot of his remarks will probably be more warmly received on this side of the House than his own Front Bench, particularly when it comes to identifying the importance of tax reductions and controlling public expenditure, as well as the focus on enterprise.
As the noble Lord was talking, particularly about developing IT, I should have been paying more attention but I was flicking through pages 4 and 5 of the excellent House of Lords Library briefing that has been prepared for this debate. I found a lot of very encouraging things. Some things, I have to say, had passed me by, such as the tenfold increase in the annual investment allowance for small enterprises; the introduction of a seed enterprise investment scheme offering investors 50% income tax relief to encourage investment in early-stage companies; doubling the lifetime limit on gains for eligible entrepreneurs’ relief to £10 million; providing 100% business rate relief for small businesses seeking to get going; a £200 million growth accelerator scheme designed to provide business coaching for high-potential firms, which 4,000 SMEs have signed up with; start-up loans and, of course, the Funding for Lending scheme. I commend those pages to the noble Lord but I very much appreciated his contribution, and his record.
Of course, I also pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for securing this debate and the measured way in which he introduced it. My only disappointment is that more colleagues from the Back Benches did not want to take part in it. I know that we have just had the debates on the gracious Speech but this really is the most important issue for our country at the present time—because everything else flows from it. If growth gets under way and strengthens, revenue yields will grow and therefore we will have more to fund the public services that we talk about. That would have been good but I thank him for securing this time.
In his opening remarks, the noble Lord made mention of the farewell comments of Mervyn King as he presented his final quarterly review of economic outlook as Governor of the Bank of England yesterday. I thought that it was cause for encouragement. Certainly, the front page of the Financial Times today was very positive—you do not often see there reasons to be cheerful, and nobody could necessarily accuse Mervyn King of being an unbridled optimist. When he says:
“There is a welcome change in the economic outlook … and growth is likely to strengthen over the course of the year … That’s the first time that I’ve been able to say that since the start of the financial crisis”,
it should give us some cause for optimism. Of course, everybody immediately then rushes to say, “Well, we don’t want to be overoptimistic; we’ve got to be cautious”—my noble friend Lady Kramer reminded us of the “green shoots” of recovery described by my noble friend Lord Lamont—but there is a balance here, because part of what leadership and government are about is creating confidence in the economy. Confidence is hugely important, whether you are a Premier League football team, a small business or a Government. It is hugely important that people have confidence in our economy. We are led to believe that corporations are currently sitting on a mountain of some £750 billion of cash which could be invested to drive forward the economy. While we all need to be cautious, we need also to talk up our economy and the fact that Britain is becoming internationally more competitive, having fallen substantially down the competitiveness league tables produced by the World Economic Forum. We are now steadily climbing back up and re-entering the top 10.
Many noble Lords travel extensively around the world—the noble Lord, Lord Marland, referred to the excellent work of the trade envoys. I was in Kuala Lumpur last weekend and met SP Setia, which is investing in the Battersea power station redevelopment. It has £600 million of investments. I met there our tremendous team of UK Trade & Investment representatives, including Tony Collingridge, which had been instrumental in bringing that investment to the UK. I met many other people there who thought that SP Setia from Malaysia had got a cracking deal and wanted to know whether there were any more going in Britain, because they regarded Britain as the most favourable destination for foreign direct investment in Europe. That is a great thing. I sometimes wish that we could spend more time overseas seeing ourselves as other people see us, as Robert Burns chided us to do, because we might then be very encouraged.
A few weeks earlier, I was in Shanghai with the McLaren motor racing company, which is undertaking significant investments. The Chinese appetite for British advanced manufacturing technologies is incredible. We should take pride in British engineering, manufacturing output and in the way we are moving forward, albeit slowly, to a projected 1.2% growth in the current year and a return to pre-recession, pre-crisis levels in about 12 months’ time and about six months ahead of normal.
This will come in sharp contrast to other parts of the world; for example, in Europe. The same newspaper has heralded the encouraging performance of British business in terms not just of growth figures but of greater confidence, as evidenced by the Purchasing Managers’ Index report on new export growth, which had gone from expansion from contraction, tipping over the 50-point threshold for the first time in recent years. It pointed to the fact that 500,000 vacancies were being advertised in jobcentres, which was their highest level since 2008. Let us contrast that with the eurozone. We do not want to point to other people’s suffering, although, sometimes, when I hear the policy prescriptions put forward by the party opposite, they remind me of something that you can point to as if they were on “Blue Peter” and say, “Here’s one where we can actually see it being road-tested”. You have only to go across the Channel to see President Hollande putting forward his solutions for the economy. They are having a disastrous effect. His wealth tax of 75% is driving people through the Channel Tunnel to London to build up our economy rather than build up their own at a rapid rate. We need to remember that, in an age of intellectual capital, intellectual businesses are highly mobile and pay attention to tax rates, as the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, reminded us. At a time when we are reporting that we have perhaps come out of that phase of the recession, that is why the French economy has gone back into it. The unemployment rates are another indicator here that we have to look at. According to the Economist this week, the unemployment rate in France is 11% and rising; the UK’s is 7.9% and stable or falling. That is a very important indicator along with GDP.
The other thing that we need to look at is the number of new jobs being created in the economy. One and a quarter million jobs have been created in the economy since 2010, which is the fastest rate of job creation that we have witnessed since 2000. Moreover, for every one job lost in the public sector, six jobs are being created in the private sector. That addresses one of the points made earlier about one of the objectives that we set out with being to rebalance the economy away from relying just on financial services towards relying on manufacturing—we are seeing a growth in exports. We need to move away also from overdependence on the public sector to a more balanced economy. We are seeing a rate of growth in new enterprise that is almost unprecedented, with 471,466 new businesses, new enterprises, established in the past year. Anyone who has ever set up a business will know that the first year is incredibly tough, and the number of start-ups which go out of business in their first year is tragically high, but the ones which stay the course are where the growth will come from—in employment, in revenues and in taxes. Therefore, the fact that we have an enterprise-friendly culture in this country is important.
Perhaps I may offer a note of caution about the growth figures for an unusual reason. Understanding national accounts is something which I never really got to grips with—even when I was a Treasury Minister, I have to confess; understanding corporate accounts comes a little bit more naturally. National accounts are incredibly complex and faceted. We chase after this half-time score of the GDP growth rate every quarter, and sometimes we are happy and sometimes we are sad. Knowing what goes into a lot of indicators is a bit like the old argument about pasties: if you knew what went into them, you perhaps would not eat them quite so readily. We have to get better at measuring what is happening and following the right KPIs for the growth of our economy.
The GDP figures are collected by way of a survey, as those who have worked in that area will know. The mix of the survey, which is organised by the Office for National Statistics, includes 6,000 manufacturing companies, 25,000 service sector companies, 5,000 retail companies and 10,000 companies in the construction sector. I am always suspicious of round numbers. We should look into this and ask why we define progress and growth in our country by that mix of samples. How often is that looked at? I encourage my noble friend, who I know takes these matters seriously and perhaps understands them much better than I ever did, to undertake a review of what goes into the GDP statistics. That in itself would make for an interesting debate. At the time that the first data are released, only 40% of the information is in and available. That is why we constantly get revisions and it comes down. At the end of the day, it is only a survey.
In business, the only thing that people watch when they are in charge of the finances is cash. You can waffle your way through a P&L account or set of accounts but you cannot waffle your way through the cash you have in the bank. That is one of the things that we should benchmark ourselves against. There are some better indicators. VAT receipts would be a very good indicator to use to track the health of the economy: they are reported quarterly and are one of the highest levels of adhered-to taxes. We have to look again at the basket of what we are measuring to ensure that we make the right judgments and policy prescriptions for the economy.
When we talk about cash at the bank, the reality is that we seem to be doing a little better. We have not paid down any of the debt and our overdraft currently stands at £111 billion but that is down from £159 billion three or four years ago. The deficit is down by a third but there is still a very long way to go before we ever get to the point we need to reach of paying down some of the debt as well. That has now been moved to 2017-18. It is encouraging that that cash element in the transaction between what is going out of the government bank account and what is coming in seems to be heading in the right direction and confirms the optimism of the Governor of the Bank of England.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Soley on securing this debate and concentrating on the issue that must be of prime importance to all of us: how we restore growth to a flatlining economy. Of course, there are rather fewer contributors today than there were in the economics debate on Monday. It is also true that just before the end of the previous Session we had a major debate on the issue, so one would have thought that the relatively small number of noble Lords participating in this debate reflects the fact that others have made their contributions already.
This debate concentrates on growth. I hope that the Minister in replying will indicate where he thinks growth is coming from and acknowledge the danger our society is in from an economy that has flatlined, as ours has. It is all right for the noble Lord, Lord Bates, to indicate that six times as many jobs are being created in the private sector as are being lost in the public sector, but then why do the latest unemployment figures show a distinctive and frightening rise? Why are a million of our young people still unemployed? What does it mean for the next generation when jobs are so difficult to obtain?
I also appreciate the self-restraint of my noble friend Lord Soley on aviation, which is nothing like the self-restraint of this Government, who have pushed aviation policy not into green shoots but into some distant long grass before any decision will be taken. Let us look at long-term investment by the Government. In aviation we have to wait a considerable time before decisions will be taken, and the much-vaunted HS2, which we welcome, is also a considerable period away from any significant investment being made. In the depths of a recession at least certain factors ought to work to the country’s advantage. After all, sterling has depreciated by almost a fifth. Yet has that produced a significant increase in exports? No, since that devaluation of sterling we have seen our balance of payments deficit get worse.
No one should underestimate the problems that accrue from the crash of 2008, but our challenge to the Government is that they have pursued the wrong priorities. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, compared Britain with France. There was never a mention from the government side comparing Britain with the United States of America. Has no one from the government Benches looked at the Michigan economy and seen what the response has been to a Government who pumped in resources to save two of the biggest car manufacturers in the world and to sustain employment and their balance of payments position by ensuring that such critical industries were not lost? Of course, for our Government such action would be complete anathema.
We are content to see austerity being pursued to such an extent that no one in our society with resources has the confidence to invest. Quantitative easing goes to banks, but banks do not have the confidence to lend to industry. In industry, many of our major companies are awash with resources, with £670 billion in cash, but they do not invest either. Why? Because the pursuit of austerity and impoverishing our people throttles demand. What is actually happening is that there is very limited purchasing power in the economy. It is of course right that we pay some regard to the activities of the Government in seeking to promote small businesses, but every noble Lord knows that the contribution made by small businesses to our balance of payments and exports is quite limited, although I note the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and agree with a number of them. We have to get our major areas of investment right, and at the present time we have not because of the absence of demand.
My noble friend Lord Bhattacharyya indicated how we could improve crucial aspects of the supply side of industry. There is no doubt that the Minister ought to respond positively to his recommendations in this debate. With such a low level of demand in society, it is extraordinarily difficult to get investment going again. It is not as if the Government exude confidence by their actions. After all, their austerity targets are missed. We were meant to see the deficit disappear by 2015, but we are now working to a longer-term cycle of 2017, with a certain elasticity even in that. We were meant to make ourselves pristine for the credit agencies, but two of the credit agencies have reduced our three-star status. We were meant to hold our heads high in the international world, but a visitation from the IMF has been presaged by serious criticisms of the Government’s position for having produced an economy so devoid of growth.
That means that the Government are patching up rather than following an intelligent strategy. They have to patch up. Think of the schemes that have already failed. Think of Merlin, which was meant to give some substance to the banks. Think of the insurance strategy, which the noble Lord, Lord Bates, welcomed because the north of England was included, whereas London and East Anglia were not. The problem is that the strategy produced only a tiny fraction of the jobs that it was predicted would follow.
Even in the most recent Budget, have the Government learnt lessons? Of course they are right that we should address the issue of housebuilding and achieve stimulus in those terms, but they have not suggested that the resource should be directed at the first-time buyer. They are not even suggesting that the resource should be directed only at someone buying their first house. It looks as if all that they will do is give a further twist to the house price spiral, thereby making even more remote the opportunities for people with limited resources to get into the housing market.
When we are critical of the Government about demand, it is because every Budget under the Government has significantly reduced purchasing power. The Government must recognise that if they slash benefits, many of which also apply to people in work, they are cutting demand. They must appreciate that if they direct their significant resources to the elite in our society, particularly those who enjoy millionaire status, it will be such an unfair society as to be demoralising for people who work hard but receive very little. One statistic of which the Government should take note is the significant fall in real wages since 2009. That is not just a real reduction in purchasing power among people at work but a worrying reduction in confidence.
If all that was the result of government incompetence, we would have real worries, but it would always be hoped that lessons could be learnt. It is not government incompetence. This strategy is pursued by a Government who believe fundamentally in a smaller state, who want significantly to reduce public expenditure and, in doing so, deliberately create circumstances in which there is higher unemployment and lower demand in society. That has underpinned the whole strategy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister since 2010, and that is why the Minister must respond on the state of the economy, which at present is a cause for concern on every side.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for initiating this debate because he asks the single most important question facing the country: how do we get more growth? He and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, have a relatively straightforward answer. Sadly, we believe that it is the wrong answer. Their answer is to borrow more. It was not the answer of the previous Labour Government. The Fiscal Responsibility Act required the Government to have halved the deficit by the financial year 2013-14. I am not sure whether the Labour Party has finally and formally renounced that legislation, but that was the course that it set.
The noble Lord, Lord Soley, points out that we had 225% of GDP borrowing after the Second World War, but I should have thought that he could see that the circumstances at the end of the Second World War were so fundamentally different in almost every respect from those of today that that is not a useful analogy.
There are a number of reasons for getting the deficit down. In my view, the most clearly demonstrable one is that a higher deficit and an incredible fiscal consolidation programme would undoubtedly lead to higher interest rates. Why is it that at the end of last week the UK was paying 1.84% on its debt, the US was paying 1.86%, Italy was paying 3.89%, and Spain 4.25%? The answer is: because this country has a credible economic policy in which the markets believe. Without that, there is no reason why our interest rates could not rise by 1% or 2%. Bear in mind that a 1% increase in interest rates means that a mortgage payer with a £100,000 mortgage is paying out an extra £1,000 per year, leaving aside the additional costs to industry and the additional billions of pounds extra that the Government will be paying to service their debts.
When the Government came in, national debt was running at 11.2% of GDP. That was possible in a crisis. I do not think anybody believes that such a level of national debt, which seems to be the level that the Opposition are talking about—we still have national debt running at more than 7%—is sustainable. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about Keynes. People disagree about Keynes, but I am pretty certain that he never advocated sustained levels of borrowing over a long period. He knew, as everyone else knows, that although such a thing is possible, and desirable, over a short period, it is not possible in the long term.
Today, in part, we have been discussing another of Keynes’s aphorisms, which is hugely important at the point at which we find ourselves in the economic cycle: his emphasis on the role played by “animal spirits”, to use his phrase, on investment decisions and a whole raft of economic decisions. Indeed, that was the burden of the speech by my noble friend Lord Bates. At this juncture, the turn in the cycle that we are clearly seeing will accelerate because the view of people in the markets—“animal spirits”: what people are saying to each other—is changing positively.
I would like to address specifically several of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley, about the components of growth. Indeed, most of these features have been about one or more components of the growth picture. I start with infrastructure, where there was widespread agreement that more needed to be done. Last year, according to the World Economic Forum, the overall quality of our infrastructure was 24th in the world. We do not believe that this is good enough, which is why we are investing more in transport infrastructure in this Parliament than was the case under the previous one. Our railways are seeing the largest programme of investment since the Victorian era. Incidentally, I am pleased to see, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Soley, is, that the amount of freight carried on the railways is going up significantly, which reverses a very long-term trend and is very welcome.
Total public and private investment in infrastructure between 2010 and 2012, at £33 billion per year, is higher than that of the final five years of the previous Government. At Budget 2013, the Chancellor unveiled an increase in capital spending plans by £3 billion per year from 2015-16. That is in addition to the £5.5 billion of investment in infrastructure announced in last year’s Autumn Statement. This included £1.5 billion for the road network.
The noble Lord, Lord Soley, and my noble colleague Lady Kramer talked about airports, which is clearly a significant component of the nation’s infrastructure. I do not believe that there is total agreement that we need to have a major national airport hub in this country, but the Government believe that it is a requirement. As noble Lords know, the Airports Commission, headed by Sir Howard Davies, is looking at airport capacity in the short and the long term. We are looking forward to seeing his interim report later in the year. In the mean time, Heathrow has spent £1 billion upgrading and Gatwick is spending £1.2 billion, so it is not as though our airports are atrophying. We know that it is a long-term issue and has been a long-term problem with no consensus within or between parties, but that is what the Davies commission is looking at.
The noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about housing, which again is a long-term challenge. All parties have taken their eye off that issue over the past decade as house prices have risen inexorably and the proportion of the population owning their own homes has risen. There are three components to improving the stock and appropriateness of housebuilding. First, we have to make it easier to build houses. Secondly, we have to help to supply more houses. Thirdly, we have to make sure that there are no artificial restraints on demand for housing.
We believe that the National Planning Policy Framework, which we published in March 2010, has had some effect in a positive direction. The proportion of planning applications being approved is at a 10-year high, a significant proportion of which are around housing. As for building more houses, we already have an £11 billion commitment in the spending review. The Budget 2013 announced a housing package totalling £5.4 billion, including the Help to Buy and mortgage guarantee schemes. There is a lot of activity on that front. However, I agree with most noble Lords that we have to do more, and we are actively attempting to do so in three strands: to make it easier to get planning, to help have more finance to build houses, and to make it easier for people to afford a mortgage.
The international component of our economic activity is clearly crucial. To rebalance the economy, we need to export more. Last week’s evidence of a narrowing of our trade deficit is a positive sign that UK exporters have faced significant challenges in recent years. Yesterday’s data confirmed that the recession in the euro area, which is our most important export market, continued in the first quarter of this year. Therefore, as the noble Lord, Lord Marland, explained, we are right to be looking more widely.
In the period 2009-12, our goods exports to China increased by 96%, to Brazil by 49%, to Russia by 133% and to India by 59%. Last year, while our exports to the rest of the EU fell by 2.5%, our exports to the rest of the world rose by 1.2%. While we look elsewhere, we should not forget that we are still exporting 42% of our goods and services to the eurozone. As we try to get more SMEs involved in exporting, many will go to the eurozone because it is so much easier for a whole raft of reasons. Getting on a plane or a train to get to a potential export market in an hour is very different from going to Brazil or China.
I have seen that with a small manufacturing company in West Yorkshire which exports mainly to Europe. Through its website, out of the blue it has had a couple of orders from Brazil for £25,000, which is pretty good for this company. The question is what it will do to capitalise on it. It has no idea who the people are who have asked for this export. The directors have had a long discussion about whether they should go to Brazil. Eventually, they decided that they would go but the cost, in time and money, meant that that was a very difficult decision. If that order had come in from Spain, they would have been off straightaway. Therefore, as we rightly put more emphasis on the rest of the world, we must not ignore the fact that the bulk of our exports are to the EU and will remain to the EU. The EU is where people dipping their toe in the export market will start.
Over the past year, we have increased UKTI’s budget by £70 million to help to deliver world-class services to move SMEs into exports and to focus our activities on the high-growth market. I hope noble Lords will feel that we are making a real impact in that crucial area.
My noble colleague Lady Kramer discussed the challenge of corporates paying the right amount of tax, an area on which we the Government have put a lot of additional emphasis. At the G8 meeting, we made clear that international tax avoidance and rebalancing the rules around taxation are our top priority. At the recent meeting of G8 Finance Ministers, which included George Osborne, it became clear that we had the support of all the leading countries to look at this. It is not something that we can do unilaterally. It has to be done on a global basis. I think that for the first time ever there is a global consensus that we have to do more around corporate tax avoidance.
In that respect, I should like briefly to mention the personal and corporate tax avoidance in tax havens where up to now there has been a huge degree of secrecy. There is a growing momentum of considerable proportions to open up data about people and companies that have set up entities, which until now have been secret, in the principal tax havens of the world. It is worth while looking at what has happened in the past year. Having signed an agreement on the automatic exchange of information with the US in September, we have done the same with the Isle of Man. In March, we reached agreement with Jersey and Guernsey. In April, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK agreed to develop and pilot multilateral tax information exchanges. Also in April, we set out our priorities around tax transparencies for the May European Council. Most significantly of all, perhaps, within the past month the overseas territories have agreed to greater automatic information exchange with the UK. Here, we are talking about the Cayman Islands, the BVI and other places that have had a degree of secrecy which we believe is simply no longer acceptable.
The noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, spoke with his unrivalled knowledge about the constraints on innovation and investment. I had a great deal of sympathy with much of what he said, particularly about supporting reshoring, which to a certain extent is happening anyway. However, as he suggested, I am sure that the Government should look at ways of doing more. I am particularly aware of an initiative that my noble friend Lord Alliance is heading up on the textile industry and which is bearing considerable fruit. His view is that the potential from reshoring textile manufacture, so that we can have the just-in-time manufacture of textiles in the UK, could be as much as 250,000 jobs in the north-west. This is potentially a huge thing.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, that we could be doing more. I was particularly interested in his suggestion of how we might use public procurement to help. We should look at that further, and I will discuss it with my colleague Vince Cable, because it seems an interesting idea. I say in passing that the suggestion that we should be emulating the Americans to increase car manufacturing here seems to ignore the fact that car manufacturing has increased here substantially, without government bailouts but with government support. That is because we have had fantastic investment by companies such as Tata, which have completely turned around iconic British brands by investing more than £100 million of their own money in innovation and investment. They are working very closely with the universities, possibly including the university of the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, and are placing their own research people in those universities. That has happened without direct government subsidy, on the American model, but because this is a good environment for that kind of activity.
We have a raft of initiatives on the table. There are the Catapult centres, whose work includes high-value manufacturing, initiatives on science and innovation and capital projects from the research partnerships fund. We have done a raft of things to help small businesses to generate capital and have access to it, from abolishing stamp duty on shares and expanding the small business research initiative to £100 million and having further funding committed via the new investment bank, which we are in the process of establishing.
For three-quarters of his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Bates, did a tremendous job in helping the movement of animal spirits in a positive direction. Then he slightly undermined that by saying that the figures on which we are placing a certain amount of hope are perhaps not worth the paper they are written on. I paraphrase slightly. However, I think we will have in the UK what has just happened in the US, where the basis of the GDP figures is being looked at. I believe this is the case, although it may not be on exactly the same basis as he wants. The sad thing is that if the consequence of that rebasing of GDP leads to GDP figures going down, everybody will say that this is the Government’s fault for being completely incompetent, while if it shows them going up, that will lead to everybody saying that they have been fiddled, so I do not place too much hope on that. A consistent series of figures is probably the best that can be done. Although it does not necessarily reach an absolutely precise representation of the truth, that is good enough.
Lord Bates
If the noble Lord will allow me, I just need to correct for the record that I did not say that the GDP figures were worthless. I never used that term. I simply queried the mix between the construction and service sectors—be it 5,000, 10,000 or 12,000—and whether that mix was under review in order to ensure that we are accurately reflecting the performance of the economy.
Lord Newby
I apologise to the noble Lord. As I was saying, I believe that the ONS is doing a pretty fundamental review of that at the moment.
The Government are under no illusions at all about the challenges ahead in respect of growth. Implementing our ambitious programme of reform and securing strong, sustainable growth will not be easy, but the Government will not deviate from their course. The prizes in the global economic race are great and we are determined to win more of them.
Lord Soley
My Lords, I am very grateful to everyone who took part in this debate. In his opening comments the noble Lord, Lord Marland, described vividly the work he is doing around the world to encourage British exports. I very much support that. Indeed, I was quite excited, so maybe we ought to have a word outside afterwards. I must declare an interest as the chairman of the Good Governance Foundation. He mentioned corruption and the rule of law, which is precisely what we are trying to do through the company. The amount of work available for British universities on promoting the rule of law is considerable.
The noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, gave a very good speech on a wide range of things. I simply say to him that science and technology deserves a debate on its own when it comes to growth. The high-tech part, which I work with, deserves so much to be put forward. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, also mentioned the importance of confidence in the economy, and I entirely agree with that.
I was slightly disappointed by the Minister’s response because I feel that he slipped back a bit. Yes, Keynes did say to take interest rates into account, but in view of the fact that the noble Lord referred to the long term and the short term he should also remember that Keynes said, “In the long term, we are all dead”. That is perhaps worth remembering, but the important point was really what the IMF and various economists are saying. I simply remind the Minister of the quotation I gave from the IMF report: that many advanced countries had debt to GDP ratios much higher than we have now, and they have dealt with them through growth. It is the alarmist approach, which I thought the Government were moving away from, that undermines confidence, because it says to people, “Oh, we are like Greece”. Well, we are not. That was a silly argument in the first place. Britain is in a much stronger position and we should not talk ourselves down in that way.
Finally, because a number of people chided me again for my interest in aviation, let me say one thing about why this is so important. This is not about hub airports but about airports generally. It is not about the Davies report. I gave evidence to that and will do so again. It is that Britain invented the Industrial Revolution. The second stage of that revolution resulted in railways, which produced the first country in recorded history where manufactured goods could be delivered from one part of the country to the other in large quantities. In other words, we had the world’s first integrated manufacturing economy.
This is such an important point because what aviation is doing for the global economy today is what railways did for the British economy in the 19th century. We lost our lead on railways after the end of the 19th century. We still have the second most advanced aerospace industry in the world. Do not let us lose our lead in this as we did on railways, otherwise we will regret it deeply. Aviation delivers goods, and people, all over the world, and it does not require public money. Most of it can be done with private money, so your Lordships can relax a little more about debt. I thank everyone for this debate.
Adoption: Adoption Legislation Committee Reports
(10 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Butler-Sloss
To move that this House takes note of the reports of the Adoption Legislation Committee on Adoption: Pre-Legislative Scrutiny (1st Report, Session 2012–13, HL Paper 94) and Adoption: Post-Legislative Scrutiny (2nd Report, Session 2012–13, HL Paper 127).
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I was delighted and honoured to be asked to chair the first post-legislative scrutiny Select Committee on the current adoption legislation. As we went along, we also became a pre-legislative scrutiny committee. Consequently, we published an interim report to express our views on the first two clauses of the Children and Families Bill in December 2012 and our final report in March 2013.
I begin by thanking the committee staff and our specialist adviser, Professor Harris-Short, for their dedication—I use that word deliberately—extremely hard work and the efficiency of their support in the evidence-gathering and in writing the two reports. I am also very grateful for the enthusiasm and enormously valuable input from the members of the committee. It would be invidious to single out any particular organisations among those which gave evidence, and we are extremely grateful to all of them for their invaluable contributions. In writing each report, we felt that we were running to keep up as we received, and had to digest, the Government’s adoption initiatives at short notice. Our committee staff wrote and rewrote the reports to meet those initiatives and our views on the adoption clauses in the Children and Families Bill.
We heard evidence over several months and made a considerable number of recommendations. In the time available, I will pick out several of those that I consider the most important and refer to the Government’s initial response. Inevitably, I shall omit important issues. As we considered the evidence presented to us, we had very much in mind the right of the child to be brought up in his or her birth family, whenever possible, and the right of parents and their children to respect for their family life. Children should not be removed from their birth family unless their welfare requires it, but, sadly, not all children are able to remain with their birth families. The welfare of the child is the paramount consideration.
It was abundantly clear to us from the evidence that there is no need for far-reaching changes to the adoption legislation. The main issues of concern we found were the unacceptable delays in the adoption process, failures of the processes and practice, and the shortage of adopters. Even for babies and young children, who are seen as easier to adopt, the delays are significant. The average age of a child at adoption is three years and eight months, and the average length of time taken from entry into care to adoption is two years and seven months. The longer children wait to be placed, the more difficult the adoption outcome for them and for the adopters.
From the evidence presented to us, we identified numerous failures of procedures and, particularly, of practice contributing to those delays. Consequently, much of the evidence we received focused on those failures and how they might be addressed effectively. Our recommendations have therefore been largely directed to those issues. They are set out at some length in our final report. The initial response of the Government sets out sensible steps to be taken—and steps that are being taken—to reduce delay, but there is nothing much new or that we did not know before we started our investigations.
There is undoubtedly potential for more children to be adopted. Adoption is unique as a change of the status of the child who becomes the child of the new family. The Government are to be congratulated on recognising the importance of adoption and seeking practical ways to improve the situation in guidance as well as proposed legislation. However, there are not enough potential adopters and, further, there are many children suitable for adoption and placed for adoption—that is, ready from the court procedures to be adopted—but who are not adopted for lack of available adoptive parents. In March 2012, there were 4,263 approved adopters and more than 4,600 children who had completed the adoption process and were ready to be matched with adopters. The process of matching is slow. In addition, there were many more children for whom an adoption decision had been made but who had not completed the court process. Until now, potential adopters have been largely recruited by individual local authorities and retained by them on their books. The national register is an excellent initiative and will, I hope, mean that approved adopters will be more widely available, which should improve the matching process from a wider pool.
However, adoption is only one relatively small solution to the large numbers of children entering the care system. For various reasons, adoption is not appropriate for many children. On 31 March 2012, there were 67,050 children in care, of whom more than 60,000 were placed away from their families. Proper provision has to be made for these vulnerable children who need to be looked after away from their birth parents. All these children need to be loved, cared for and provided with stability and long-term security. Most of them may be cared for by other members of their family, friends, special guardianship or long-term fostering. However, a danger was articulated to me by a district judge this week that the 26-week requirement for the completion of care proceedings may concentrate on process rather than on the welfare of the child and may create injustices through the inability of some social workers to make adequate assessments of the birth family and of the wider family who might otherwise be able to take over the care of the child. I therefore stress the importance of early family conferencing throughout all local authorities.
The committee was concerned that the Government’s proper concern with and focus on increasing adoption may risk disadvantaging those children in care for whom adoption is not an option. Improving the outcomes for all children should be the priority. All routes to permanence merit equal attention and investment. In the initial response, the Government have set out a number of steps already taken to improve the fostering process and commissioned research on special guardianship.
The committee believes that early intensive work with birth parents where there is capacity to change has the potential to allow the children to remain safely with their parent or parents and would reduce the number of children entering the care system. There are excellent government-supported early-intervention initiatives, but the committee was concerned that a substantial sum—£150 million—is to be removed from early intervention to help local authorities improve their adoption procedures. The Government’s initial response has, rather surprisingly, been to point out that fostering for adoption is a form of early intervention. That is true, but it removes the child from the birth family. Early intervention, working with the birth family, can be successful and, if so, the child can remain in the family and fostering for adoption would not be necessary. It would be most unfortunate if the potential benefit of early intervention were to be undermined by the greater focus on adoption.
We are told that a significant increase in the budget is being allocated to early intervention. I should like to hear from the Minister how that increase is to be distributed. I provided the Minister with my draft earlier today.
On post-adoption support, most children are adopted from the care system and most of them, other than babies, will have had unhappy experiences in their birth family, which is why they have been removed from the family. Adoption provides the opportunity for the adopted children to have a secure and stable childhood. It does not rid them of the unhappy early part of their lives. Some of these children present major problems for their new, adoptive families and both the children and their new parents often need a great deal of practical help, counselling and therapeutic help. It is much to the credit of the Government that they now recognise the importance of post-adoption support. The adoption passport will be available online to be accessed by potential adopters and sets out the help which may be available to them.
The committee recommended that there should be a statutory duty on local authorities and other service-commissioning bodies to co-operate, to ensure the provision of post-adoption support. The Government have not responded directly to that recommendation—it would be fair to say that they avoided doing so—and I hope that it will be seriously considered when the Children and Families Bill reaches this House.
We invited adopted and looked-after children to come and talk to some of the members of the committee; we are indebted to the Children’s Rights Director, Roger Morgan, for arranging for these children to come. Both groups ranged in age from about 17 down to eight and were most informative, particularly the younger children when they developed sufficient confidence to tell us what they really thought. The two points I pick out today were said by both groups of children. First, they were not consulted. They did not expect that their views would be accepted, but at least they might be asked. Most of them were very critical of independent reviewing officers whom they had not met or who were not helpful to them; to the contrary were one or two children whose independent reviewing officers had done a very good job with them. Some children were critical of their guardians, who neither spoke nor listened to them. I am disappointed that the Government have rejected our recommendation that IROs should be genuinely independent—it is an important issue—but I hope that something effective will be done about the IRO case overload.
The second point the children raised concerned the training in schools of other pupils about the meaning of adoption and the meaning of being “in care”. Much more importantly, however, they focused on the training needed by teachers. Two adopted children told us that they were criticised by their teachers for being unable to complete a family tree. They were actually put in front of the class and told that they were being unhelpful. I cannot believe any teacher could be so insensitive as to tell an adopted child that he or she was not supportive of the class when they were unable to produce a family tree of their new family. I am glad that the Government are looking at this important issue of teachers.
I turn briefly to outcomes and data. The Government have rightly concentrated on the importance of improving processes, but there has not yet been sufficient focus on outcomes. Some adoptions fail, with disastrous results for the child and for the adopters and with considerable additional cost to the state in taking a seriously damaged child back into care. We need much more data and research on breakdown and how it can be avoided. The Government say that they are looking at it. I hope very much that they take some effective steps to find out what lies behind these breakdowns.
It would also be helpful if a child’s passage from the moment of going into care to being placed in adoption, and thereafter, was monitored so that one has a graph of what happened to that particular child, which might also help with the issue of breakdown. We need much more data and research on breakdown and how it can be avoided, and I do not apologise for saying that again.
The other recommendations the Government have rejected are likely to figure in amendments to the Children and Families Bill when it comes to this House. I beg to move.
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, it is a great privilege to come immediately after our splendid chairman. Age before beauty, of course, as one of the lonely men on the committee, my goodness, it was a pleasure to serve under our chairman and to have such a riveting and exciting time studying a very difficult subject.
I will not follow in any detailed way what has been done, what the law is and what is now proposed. I would like to speculate a little on the relationship between Government and local government, and all the other agencies that are involved in the very complicated matter of care and permanent placements.
Clauses 1 to 3 of the Bill all do things that are entirely relevant to what we studied. There is a new duty, a change in the rules about how you look at matching on grounds of ethnicity, and in Clause 3 there is the headmaster’s stick behind the curtain, which is the possibility of directions. I have to admit to a personal dislike of any clause that has directions in it as there is no parliamentary procedure for appealing against the decision of a Secretary of State.
However, that may be—let us hope that Clause 3 never needs to be used—when thinking about these complex matters we need to remember quite a number of things. A lot of very expert people are involved in these complicated matters: not least, of course, the courts. Views about child psychology and the best interests of the child are a moving target. I was an economist at one time and, as noble Lords will know, no two economists agree. I am not sure that any two child psychiatrists entirely agree either. There is a very wide intellectual background to these matters and of course there are wide differences on the ground.
The demographics of Bradford are not the same as those of north Yorkshire and Hackney is very different from Southall. The divergences of circumstances on the ground—between local authorities and between individual circumstances—are enormous. As the chairman has already said, we found—and the evidence completely supported this—that the behaviour within the existing system is much more important than the probably helpful tweaks that can be given to it in legislation. This issue of the behaviour within the existing system will stay with us. That is why I am very interested in how the Government approach their relationships with local authorities in a matter such as this.
Of course the financial relationship does not help. The fact that local authorities are responsible for such a small part of their own funding does not help at all. I do not want to draw parallels with the governance of the eurozone and the monetary problems that arise from that, but there are parallels. If you split these responsibilities in a quite draconian way, it does not help and it contributes to the public not turning out in very large numbers in local government elections and coming to think of their elected representatives as delegates—a very non-Burkean position. Centralisation makes the question of the postcode lottery more difficult. Dealing with children in care in Kent will remain a very different matter from dealing with children in care in Northumberland or—again—Hackney.
In pursuing these difficult judgments about whether a child should be taken into care, and how quickly a decision should be made about the best possible placement, when to go to court and so on, we need throughout the system—in the department, in local authorities, among elected members and in social services departments—confidence, professional certainty and an acceptance that now and again the judgments that are reached in pursuit of minimising delay will have risks to them, and occasionally will turn out not to be as successful as we would have hoped.
The Government’s initial response to our December and March efforts was pretty general. I have read it carefully and I am not filled with certainty that everybody in the system knows how to handle these matters in the best possible way. I suppose that that is inevitable. Therefore, the question becomes whether the difficulties are properly recognised, and whether there is a dialogue about them and an acceptance that we have to get on with thinking about this very carefully, even if we are somewhat uncertain about the right answer. Otherwise, uncertainty will have to be rationalised out and so will become indifference and certainly delay. Therefore the central issue is how the Government intend, in their relationship with local authorities, to impart a degree of confidence that will lead to a degree of certainty and a willingness to make decisions in a timely fashion. That goes right through all the people involved in the system, including the adoption agencies and all the other people who contribute to the very important wish of all of us to see a greater number of successful adoptions.
The challenge is to ensure that when John Humphrys gets into a dialogue on a problem that has arisen—and problems will arise—everybody in the system, when they are interviewed, can say, “We thought this through together, we are all in it together and not one of us is trying to make sure that somebody else carries the blame”.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top
My Lords, I thank the House for appointing me to this committee. It was my first Select Committee at this end of the building, and I enjoyed being part of a very thorough piece of work with a very interesting and varied group of people, with very different expertise and experience. Of course we were expertly chaired by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. I had the enormous privilege of encountering her chairmanship much earlier in both our careers, when she chaired the Cleveland child abuse public inquiry. I was new to the House of Commons but I had been working as a social worker in the north-east, so was involved and interested in the issue. I was also serving on the then Education Bill Committee in the Commons. This was, I think, in 1998—the Bill became the 1998 Act. I was able to learn from her work and report in getting a much firmer framework for child protection in this country. She was immensely gracious to those of us who were new to Select Committee work in this House, and very tolerant of our different approaches, and I am very grateful to her for that. I am also grateful that she has today given us a much more expansive report, in a sense, of the overall conclusions of the committee, because I want to concentrate on a much narrower area of the committee’s considerations. However, it is important for noble Lords to remember the whole context in which the committee was working.
Adoption is, of course, an important option for children who are not able, for whatever reason, to be cared for by their birth parents, but it is sometimes forgotten that the pattern of adoption has changed significantly over the past 50 years. No longer is it dominated by newly born babies, probably put up for adoption because their mothers were out of wedlock. These days, that is not the main reason for children coming into care or, indeed, being placed for adoption. Many of the children who are placed for adoption today will be from what the Government often call “troubled families”, which means that many of them will have had very traumatic experiences in their childhood and will be very damaged by the neglect, violence or abuse that they have already suffered.
The report is trying, in the areas with which I am concerned, to establish that careful balance between the importance of achieving early permanence for vulnerable children alongside that key recognition that the best place for a child is to be raised within the family network, provided that it is safe and in their best interests. I remember as a social worker many moons ago just how anxious and obsessed were many adolescents with whom I worked because they did not have contact with their birth parents or their early family. It did not matter what we did in the care system; they wanted to know, wanted the reasons and wanted to see what we could do to establish contact. Today, if they go down the adoption road, that is very difficult for them. For me that means that we have a responsibility to take early intervention seriously. The committee felt that the careful balance that I am talking about could be met only by effective early intervention. Again, my experience as a Minister in tackling social exclusion was that there are good evidence-based programmes around the world on early intervention. There is now a lot of knowledge and work around that, and we have a responsibility to use that knowledge, now that we know.
There is increasing evidence of the importance of the time from conception to the age of two in the development of a child. We know that this is the crucial phase of human development. It is in this period that children form those solid psychological and neurological foundations to optimise lifelong social, emotional and physical health, and that of course then has such an important effect on their educational and economic achievement. Lack of attachment, neglect and abuse all have serious detrimental effects on children, and severely affect that development.
I commend to the House a report that has been published since the committee deliberated this issue from the special interest group for nought to two year-olds set up by the Government. The report was co-written by Sally Burlington at the Department for Education and George Hosking, CEO of the Wave Trust. I remind the House of my interest as a trustee of that organisation. I hope the Minister has been briefed on that report as it clearly points out that the most effective interventions are often preventive rather than reactive. The report says that preventive interventions address risk factors likely to result in future problems for particular families without waiting for those problems to emerge. That is precisely what I urge the Government to do. Although we considered early intervention we were not able to look at that report, but I think that many of us on the committee agree with that finding.
We heard from the NSPCC about some of the work that that organisation has done in this area. I talked about evidence-based programmes such as the Family Nurse Partnership, and continue to do so. Indeed, some people think that I am obsessed with those programmes. I had the privilege of witnessing the Family Nurse Partnership in the United States of America and then persuading my Cabinet colleagues to fund pilot programmes in this country. It became clear from that work that health visitors and midwives are the key to achieving better health and well-being for children in their foundation years. We are simply not sufficiently innovative in how we use their knowledge and expertise to understand what is happening to children and prospective parents in these most vulnerable families. If we used their work much more creatively, we would be able to take decisions which could well achieve the Government’s ambition of providing more early placements and early decision-making. We have the opportunity to change the manner in which parents behave, or are likely to behave, towards their children. We now know about that from the Nurse Family Partnership; or the Family Nurse Partnership, as we have rechristened it. We know what can be done. We know how we can change the behaviour and ambition of young mothers undergoing their first pregnancy. That should be the overarching ambition in early intervention.
The challenge for the Government is to get the legislation right to ensure that families are given the right support at the right stage to avoid problems of neglect and abuse so that the child’s interests are attended to before damage is done. If that work is guaranteed, if there is no prospect of the parents’ behaviour changing, or of other appropriate kinship carers, families or friends taking on the care of the child, permanent solutions should kick in quickly. We have just not been good enough at this. We have not been good enough at early identification or early intervention to optimise the child’s opportunities. Too often potential carers among family and friends are not investigated at an early stage: it comes as an afterthought. Too often there is insufficient support for kinship carers. Earlier this week, I popped into the Family Rights Group reception in the Palace of Westminster. Members of that body gave evidence to the committee. At the reception we heard about the experience of kinship carers, which was incredibly moving. However, we also heard their pleas for greater support.
I accept that there is, on occasion, risk in kinship placements. Anyone who has listened to the remarkable story of my very good right honourable friend along the Corridor, Alan Johnson, about his experience of kinship care, knows that taking a risk is important. He had a remarkable social worker who was prepared to take that risk and leave him with his sister who was 16. However, such risk should be mediated by the guarantee of support, and that is the issue on which many kinship carers feel we let them down. The Government sort of acknowledge that in their response to the report, but I want more action on that. I would like them to take account of the recommendations of recent research by Oxford University for the Family Rights Group, which gives us a menu of how we might provide that support more effectively.
I know that I have not covered many other aspects of the report. I conclude by saying that sometimes the rhetoric from the Government about adoption overshadows the other things that the committee knows are important—indeed, our chairperson has identified them as being important—such as early identification and the menu of different forms of permanence for children in care. It is important to recognise the complex jigsaw of ways forward, and I know that that is where the Government are, even if the rhetoric sometimes belies that. We have responsibility to ensure that the legislation that we are shortly to consider enhances opportunities for the most vulnerable children. I look forward to that.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I, too, sincerely thank our chairman and all who advised and assisted us, who, from where they are sitting probably want to join in this debate. They joined in very helpfully in the committee. They made it an enjoyable and productive process, about which I want to say a word.
I have been involved for some years in judging awards, mostly in the local government field but more broadly, to scrutiny committees and scrutiny branches of organisations. I have been increasingly aware that scrutineers are being involved by their executives in co-operative and forward-looking, not merely reactive, responsive work. I hope that we have fulfilled something of that function in our work. Our chairman has referred to some of the evidence given by children and their carers about their experiences of care and adoption. She, like me, might sometimes put quotation marks around the word “evidence” but they contributed to our consideration. I have been wondering about whether, as Bills come before committees of Parliament, there might be more scope for combining our current work with the sort of post-legislative/pre-legislative scrutiny that our inquiry became. This is done more by the Commons than it is by us. Is there room for more liaison? Perhaps I should pause while I am struck by a thunderbolt for suggesting any such thing. However, I hope that both Houses can continue to explore new ways of looking at what we are doing.
Like other noble Lords, I found the leapfrogging government announcements somewhat frustrating at the time but, with hindsight, I recognise that there was more of a pattern to them than it felt when we were doing it.
I have come across some amazing people in the adoption world. I first became involved with adoption towards the end of the 1970s, and I want to use this opportunity to put into Hansard the names of two couples who formed the agency, Parents for Children, with which I worked. Both couples—Sheila and Michael Crawford and Hilary and David Chambers, who also founded the Parent to Parent Information on Adoption Services that later became Adoption UK—were adopters of children with considerable disadvantages. With the first director, Phyllida Sawbridge, some really ground-breaking work was done in this country with, as I said, children who had multiple disadvantages.
Last year, I met Phyllida Sawbridge again, and we reminisced about, bluntly, the advertising of children who needed to be adopted, requiring permanence, and about other mechanisms, such as activity days, when potential adopters met children, involving picnics on Parliament Hill and that sort of thing. I wonder about the wheel sometimes being reinvented.
I was quite young at the time and maturity gives one a different perspective. What it has given me is a perspective on the importance of identity—one’s own identity. The first report that the committee produced dealt with the Government’s proposal regarding changing legislation concerning the place and consideration of religion, race, language and culture. We felt that our proposal gave those matters appropriate weight and an appropriate place, and I am sorry that when the Bill was published it was clear that the Government did not accept what we had to say.
Legislation is not everything—that was something that we felt time and again in our work—but changing the legislation, as the Children and Families Bill will do if it is unamended in this regard, sends a very particular message, and it is not a message that I am comfortable with. A parent’s understanding and a child’s sense of who he is seems to be one of those issues which is rather susceptible to the swings of the pendulum in thinking. The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, referred to this as a moving target—a phrase that I may adopt at some point.
Another pendulum is where responsibility lies between the local and the national. I am naturally a localist but I found myself thinking again and again during the committee’s work that adoption is in some sense a national service.
The committee has expressed concern about the Secretary of State’s power to direct local authorities to outsource recruitment, and reference has been made to that. We encourage the Government to allow time for the sector to develop alternative proposals. I am not entirely sure what the Government mean in their response by saying that they will not impose a solution,
“unless it becomes clear that the sector as currently constituted is unable or unwilling to address these problems”.
The response goes on:
“We will, however, not hesitate to intervene if the sector is unable to make the urgent changes that need to happen”.
That sounds to me more top-down than I am comfortable with.
The Local Government Association, in its briefing for today—and I have no doubt that it will brief us extensively for the Bill—makes the point that, as many adoptive parents say, the relationship between adopters and their council lasts long after they adopt. It says:
“This is why it is so crucial that we have a joined-up adoption system”.
The committee identified issues regarding social workers’ training and continuing professional development and status following Professor Munro’s report. I was not left with complete confidence that the Government had understood what we were saying in this regard.
I understand that each local authority is accountable for its own performance but we heard interesting and encouraging things about joint working and consortia, to use the term quite widely. I hope that the Government’s response rejecting joint scorecards and joint inspections does not mean that they are rejecting out of hand ways in which authorities can work together. Like others, I was disappointed by the way in which the early intervention grant had been regarded, although we have been given information about new moneys which will become available.
The committee was fortunate to have members directing us to evidence and data. One of the areas in which more information is required is the breakdown of placements. Our chairman has referred to this already. I know that work is being done in this area but I am not clear how breakdown is defined and, in particular, whether any longitudinal work is going on or whether the Government, who I know have already commissioned some work, are looking only at the relatively short term. A problem with a placement arising from a child’s background may evidence itself perhaps only in the teenage years, and it may be quite difficult to untangle the components at that stage.
We have raised the issue of value for money and the costs and benefits of adoption support in this context and we learn from the report—or, at any rate, I learnt; others may have known of this before—of work commissioned from the Childhood Wellbeing Research Centre. I have given the Minister notice—not very much notice, I am afraid—that I would be interested to know the terms of reference of that work, how it is being carried out and, in particular, of course, who is being consulted. I have looked at the centre’s website and I notice that one of the partners in the work is part of the Coram Foundation, which has much experience, including in concurrent planning, but presumably a wider trawl is being undertaken.
The committee argued for post-adoption support, not only an assessment of adopters’ needs. I understand there is a lack of information as to how assessments are carried out by local authorities and adopters report varied experiences. There seems to be no model for the assessment—I would not necessarily support a single model—and that means that there is no benchmarking. I wonder how evaluation of the assessments is being undertaken.
The Government’s response to our reports also referred to work on a social impact bond. Again, I hope the Minister will be able to say more about developments for funding mechanisms which the Government are monitoring. I think I have used almost all the words which were applied to this issue in the report. It was a very short paragraph.
Finally, let me raise a narrow point which the noble and learned Baroness had in mind but did not develop—she is leaving it for the Bill—and that is access to information by the descendants of adopted people. We have evidence of the need for a change to the legislation. A woman who was affected was not herself adopted, but her father was, and she made an application to the court. She said:
“I believe that knowing my origin is an important part of who I am, and having access to my father’s birth information would restore my sense of identity and belonging. Society’s attitude towards adoption has been changing for some years, and these are amendments which should reflect a more open approach”.
The Government responded that:
“This is a complex and sensitive issue which needs careful consideration before any change to legislation could be considered”,
and went on to say that they are in discussion with the Law Commission. Can the Minister say today what considerations there are which are greater than or different from those applying in the case of adopted people? I might be able to imagine them, but I would be glad to hear them at this point.
We were asked to look at legislation and of course, as has been said, what we found was that there were issues mostly around practice. For reasons of time, I will not rehearse the arguments about the importance of early permanency, but I want to end by going back to some of my own early experiences, which still apply. In essence, although it is not the whole of it, if permanency is not achieved early, a child becomes a child who is difficult to place.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, I, too, had the honour of being a member of the committee, although for a large part of the time I was being looked after by the National Health Service, so I can thank the chair for her excellent work more objectively than the other members of the committee and, indeed, I can thank my colleagues. Between them, they have made a superb contribution to the thinking around the needs of vulnerable children in our communities. I want to concentrate today on that wider aspect.
Noble Lords who take part in debates such as this will know the sinking feeling that you get as you listen to the speeches that have gone before—I am sure that those who are to speak after me are having the same thought—and you realise that most of the points that you want to make have already been made, but I would say to the Minister that in this instance I think that that is important, because it reinforces the central message. I felt that the noble and learned Baroness and my computer had been in collusion, but I can assure him that they were not. I have known the noble and learned Baroness down the years because she was president of the Family Division when I had the somewhat mixed experience of being the deputy chair and then chair, like the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, of the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Services. That experience of children is something else that I bring, apart from being a social worker.
The Government are right to concentrate hard on this aspect of children’s needs because, as the Minister must know, there really is a crisis at the moment in childcare. Care applications in April 2013 were 20% higher than in the previous year. We really cannot continue on that sort of trajectory. To quote the chief executive of CAFCASS, the number of children legally freed for adoption but without an adopter available is increasing relentlessly. As has been said, the figure is just below the 5,000 mark. Not only do we need to ensure speedy but appropriate planning for these children, but we must stem the flow by questioning what it is in our society, our services and our systems that brings so many children into care. What can we do better in order to support children at home?
Apart from the possibility of safe reunification with one or both parents—sometimes it is with one parent if the other parent can be distanced; I will return to that later—children can find secure, loving relationships through kinship care, permanent fostering, special guardianship and good residential care. We have seen that, as special guardianship has increased, sometimes adoption has gone down. That has been seen as a reduction in adoption but what we should be looking for is permanence, not a particular answer. Children often need combinations of care at different stages of their childhood and the development of their family. By overemphasising one—adoption—we may demean the others. Different pathways also require a variety of support services. We acknowledge gratefully what the Government have proposed through the adoption passport, recognising the wide need of adopted children, but we regret that the provision of the services identified is not to be a statutory duty. We hope that the Government will look again at this through the Children and Families Bill.
It has been said several times this afternoon that the committee endorsed the importance accorded to the right of a child to be raised within their birth family wherever possible. If I could say that in bold and underlined, I would do so. I have spent enough of my working life, as many of my colleagues know, developing safeguarding programmes, dealing with the worst of neglect or harm and indeed the murder of children by their parents, to have a more than realistic picture of what life can be like for some children left in unsafe situations. Indeed, we know from consultation directly with children that top of the list of things that they look for is to be safe.
However, I also spent enough years as a social worker involved with families with complex problems to know that, with clear assessment, proper planning and support services such as Sure Start and Home-Start, parents can make changes. We have heard about the NSPCC programme, which has had very good outcomes. All this will lead to positive family life, but it takes skill, time and, especially, good social work intervention, and that is where there is a key difficulty for local authorities at the moment. In this regard, where parents have the capacity to change, the committee was clear that evidence in favour of that early, intensive intervention to address family problems is compelling.
As I said, local authorities, particularly their social workers, are under severe pressure. It was therefore with deep concern that we learnt that adoption reform is to be funded by taking money from the early intervention grant. I ask the Minister directly: how can good early decision-making based on these clear assessments be achieved, with permanency planning being prioritised one month after entry into care, without the financing of a skilled workforce to carry this out? Social workers continue to have a bad press and remain undervalued in terms of pay and conditions of service, and I wonder sometimes why any person joins the service. But we need teams who can approach every new situation with a broad understanding of children and their families, where adoption is fully integrated into child protection and family support. We need a more rounded approach, which we had at some point in the past.
The Government’s response to our recommendation that,
“the Government need to give further consideration to the practical effect of the proposed change … on social work culture and practice”,
was simply to say that further information to support the Bill’s provisions would be provided. Is the Minister in a position to provide the information or will that come at a later stage? What will be done to support and develop social workers in their practice? As our chair has done, I draw attention to the position of independent reviewing officers and ask what is to be done to ensure that their decisions are independent of their employing authorities and their workloads are manageable. We heard during the inquiry of one case where a reviewing officer really took the brunt of a serious mistake and then discovered that his workload was totally impossible. Anyone carrying that workload was likely to make a mistake.
The committee came to the conclusion that concurrent planning is essential and I am delighted that CAFCASS and the Association of Directors of Children’s Services are undertaking work on early permanence analysis. This approach reflects the concern and commitment of those working for children—people who know that a week in a child’s life is a long time. I welcome the Government’s response to make it a duty of the local authority to place a child with carers who may go on to be their permanent carers at a very early stage. However, I hope that care will also be taken in ensuring the human rights of families, which means having the right length of time for social workers to engage and make their decisions. In saying that, I again acknowledge that there are times when immediate intervention must take place.
It has been said previously that we have no evidence, except anecdotal evidence, of the broad success or failure of adoption. I found this astounding having been involved in childcare statistics for many years. We urge the Government to undertake research that, by gathering statistics of adoption breakdown, would give some basis for planning. While everyone in the children’s social care field welcomes any plans to reduce the time taken by care proceedings, I repeat that there must be enough time to make appropriate plans. Nothing that I have said in support of social work with birth families indicates a lack of value for adoption; it simply indicates a need for a balance. I have direct personal and professional experience of the security that a good adoptive family can achieve, but we must assess each child’s situation on its merits.
To meet the expectation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, we must wherever possible ensure that the child is an active participant in their future. We have heard how often children felt that things were being done to them rather than with them. The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea has recently introduced an advocacy service to ensure that children can be properly heard and their views incorporated into decisions at the child protection conference stage. That is a good deal earlier than family conferences. When the child is old enough, it is essential that their views are known. The NCB only yesterday published a report, Time to Listen, showing how advocacy can enhance children’s involvement. If we are to get the placements right, including adoption, we must know what the children think and feel. It does not necessarily mean that that will the right plan, but how can you make a good professional assessment without listening to the children? Recent events in Oxford surely illustrate what happens when they are not heard. I wonder what else the Government are doing to encourage child participation and advocacy.
I repeat: a week in the life of a child can be a lifetime. Whatever path we take to ensure that each child has a happy and secure permanent placement must be found with skill and application. I look forward to the Children and Families Bill and to the Minister’s response to the issues raised today, but I ask him and his colleagues to remember that, while leaving a child in an unsafe situation and without adequate support can be a death sentence, removing a child from parents is for them a life sentence. Those difficult decisions, keeping the child always at the centre of consideration, require professionals who can deliver what the Government in partnership with local authorities need to do. It is practice rather than legislation that will make the difference. I hope to hear what the Government are going to do to ensure that that practice is adequate.
Baroness King of Bow
My Lords, it has been a great pleasure to serve on this committee. One of the things I liked most about it and this subject is that we were more or less able to approach it from a non-party-political angle. No one in this House would not want to see Britain treat its most vulnerable children in a fairer manner. I say that almost as a disclaimer at the beginning before I have a little bit of a go at some of the Government’s approaches to this issue.
Clearly, I welcome the Government’s desire to improve life chances for children in the care system but you have to look at who these children are. I was shocked and must confess my ignorance because I did not realise that when we talk about children in care today in Britain some 56% of them are over the age of 10 and will never realistically be adopted. Although I am evangelical on the subject of adoption—even more evangelical than the Secretary of State in the other place as I have three adopted children—to focus on adoption at the expense of other permanent care solutions would inevitably be to neglect over half our children in care. That simply is not an option.
The best way to help children in care is to change circumstances in their birth families so that they are not taken into care in the first place. That is why every single member of the committee to speak so far has brought up the subject of early intervention and the fact that the grant was raided, manoeuvred or manipulated. Whatever word you want to use, the Government announced they were taking £150 million from councils’ early intervention grants. The Government argued they were doing so because adoption is a form of early intervention. Of course that is true but the whole point of “early” early intervention is to prevent children being removed from their birth families in the first place. In that respect, adoption is not early intervention but an act of last resort when all else has failed.
Worryingly, we heard time and again that either families today are failing more and more often or their failure has now become unacceptable. Whatever the reasons for that, the upshot is clear: we heard again and again that the water table is rising. All the professionals we took evidence from were alarmed by the rising tide of children coming into the care system. If more money is taken out of early intervention then even more children will be put up for adoption. The NSPCC has said:
“Whilst we welcome more support for adoption it simply doesn’t make sense to take the money from the early intervention pot. This funding actually helps stop family breakdown which often leads to the need for adoption in the first place”.
I understand that the Minister will state that early intervention funding is increasing in 2014-15, up from 2011-12, but I have been told by various local authorities that this does not make up for all the money that they have lost.
While we are on the subject of money, I want to mention post-adoption support. This was one of the committee’s most important recommendations. We proposed a statutory duty to co-operate so that families which adopt Britain’s most vulnerable children receive the professional help they need. Of course, they do not know when that help will be required. It might be six weeks after they adopt a child or it might be six or 10 years. We are talking about children who have been abandoned, neglected or abused—whether physically, emotionally or sexually. They may be withdrawn when they arrive at their new families. They may be physically aggressive towards their new parents. I have spoken to many adoptive parents who were literally taken aback at what hit them when newly adopted children arrived in their families. The idea that these new parents should be left to deal with the consequences of early abuse and neglect is unconscionable. It is also financially irresponsible. The costs of adoption breakdown are met by the state and it is invariably more expensive to take a child back into care than to give those families the help they need at the appropriate time.
The Government themselves state that there is a strong moral and financial imperative for providing high-quality adoption support. I welcome that statement, but if they are to stand by it, will they please undertake to review the committee’s suggestion of a statutory duty? If the Minister does not think that a statutory duty to co-operate among the different agencies that provide such services—such as the NHS, adolescent mental health services, or whatever—is appropriate, will he agree to review that advice on statutory support, as it is a lifeline to adoptive families?
I also welcome the Government’s commitment to equalising rights between adoptive parents and non-adoptive parents. I was contacted by an adoptive parent who was forced to return to work early. She was not eligible for statutory maternity pay because her child was adopted and she worked freelance. If you are freelance and you have a baby, you receive SMP, but if you are freelance and you adopt a baby, you do not. I know that that is true because the same thing happened to me. I submit that I am more able to deal with that situation than many freelancers. It is iniquitous and a clear case of discrimination that if you adopt a baby and are freelance, you do not get the same support as if it was a birth baby. That is despite the fact that an adoptive child has an even greater need than a birth child to form healthy attachments with its new parents. I should be very grateful if the Minister would undertake to write to me on the issue, if he cannot give a response at this point.
Social impact bonds have been mentioned by other noble Lords. The Government say that they are monitoring innovative funding mechanisms such as social impact bonds. Do they have any plans to use social impact bonds to fund post-adoption support? What more can the Minister tell us about that?
I end by thanking the chair of our committee, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, for her excellent leadership. I imagine that her breadth of experience on the subject is almost unparalleled in this House, notwithstanding the many experts we have here. I also thank those who so ably helped the committee in its work. It was an absolute pleasure to serve on the committee, but it will mean something only if the Government can take firm and clear steps in the areas that we have outlined so that our desire to give Britain’s most vulnerable children a fair chance in life becomes reality.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, this debate has been interesting, stimulating and challenging, as was membership of the committee. I am sure that the debate will continue to be as stimulating. Being on such a committee, so ably led by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, was a great honour and pleasure. One felt that one was doing something really worth while. I very much thank her, the members of staff who supported us and all those who gave an enormous amount of time to present us with evidence. It was the evidence to which we listened and responded and which has been produced in our report. If we are interested in evidence-based policy, we should listen carefully to what those people said, which we have reflected in our report.
I have been involved with adoption since I was three years old, because at that point I suddenly acquired a little brother. This was not because my mummy had had a big bump in her tummy. At that age, I did not realise that that was a bit odd. I acquired a little brother through family adoption. A close member of the family died immediately after she gave birth and the baby became my little brother. Subsequently, his older siblings became regular visitors to our house and became sort of second-stage members of our family.
It is because of the great success of that adoption that I very much understand the need and importance of an adopted person to understand their identity, and where they belong in a family and more generally. I very much support what my noble friend Lady Hamwee said as regards the importance of information about the person’s background in aiding their ability to understand their own identity.
I am still involved in adoption because I now have an adopted granddaughter. This is a transracial adoption which so far is highly successful and I am delighted. It has shown me how adoption is a two-way street. The adoptive parents go through all the hassle of being approved and all the decision-making because they want to add to their family. They want to give a child a loving home. However, the child brings something terribly important to that family and we must never forget that when adoptive parents give the wonderful gift of a home to a baby, the child also brings something very important to that family.
It is because of that experience that I shall focus on racial matching. Current legislation on racial matching came in under Section 1(5) of the Adoption and Children Act 2002. It states that consideration has to be given to,
“religious persuasion, racial origin and cultural and linguistic background”,
when placing a child for adoption. Of course, with a baby there is not any language, but there is for most children who are adopted.
That was put in legislation because racial issues are an important consideration in the identity of the child. When the Select Committee was taking evidence, we heard pretty unanimous evidence that people felt that there was not a lot wrong with the Government’s intention when that recommendation was put into what was then the Bill. However, there were a few cases—this should not be overemphasised—where there was excessive delay in the system because the practice was not quite right. Some social workers took that part of the legislation as a message to say that racial matching was an overriding consideration when matching a child with a family. Most people told us that that was not widespread but it was accepted that it occasionally happened.
Clearly, the Government are very keen to reduce delay from whatever cause. Therefore, they have looked at this issue and said, “We are going to cut it out completely from the legislation”. The Children and Families Bill before us, which, I imagine will go through in 2013, has removed that consideration. Our Select Committee recommended something slightly different. Accepting that racial matching is an important factor and that the adoptive family must be aware of the needs of the child because of the racial part of his or her nature, we need to put it in somewhere. It has to be taken account of by practitioners. It should not be an overriding consideration but it is important. We suggested that it should go in the previous subsection, subsection (4) of the Adoption and Children Act, as part of the checklist. But I do not see anything like that in the legislation before us to implement that recommendation.
We have to remember that where you have an interracial adoption which involves a visible difference between a child and the rest of his or her family, they might as well have a sign on their forehead saying, “I am adopted”. To me, that is a great thing to have because it means that your family has chosen you. You have not just happened. Your family wants you and there is no doubt about that, which is a wonderful thing. Most of these adoptions are highly successful, but really only when the agencies work with the parents to ensure that the parents understand that this is an element they have to take into consideration when bringing up that child.
That is why our committee, which was remarkably unanimous on most issues, felt that this issue should not be taken out completely but should be in the checklist. I am a little confused because I understand that when this was being discussed in a committee in another place the Minister, Mr Edward Timpson, for whom I have a great regard, assured the committee that it was going to be in the checklist. However, it is not being put into the legislation, so I wonder whether my noble friend the Minister can clarify that matter because I think the committee all felt very strongly that while it should not be an overriding consideration, it is a very important one and must be taken into account when finding the right family for the child.
Of course, we have a problem because black and ethnic minority and mixed-race children are overrepresented in the cohort of children waiting for adoption and we do not have enough parents of that kind of ethnicity coming forward and asking to be adoptive parents. One way of solving that problem is to try to get more of those parents to come forward and foster and maybe move on to adoption, or just to go straight to adoption. I am sure that the Government are taking initiatives in that direction, which is very welcome, but we need to do more.
Personally, I think it is quite dangerous because of the message it sends out to practitioners, which has been mentioned. Those practitioners who took the wrong message from the previous legislation might swing in completely the opposite direction and say, “The Government do not want us to take any notice at all of ethnicity when matching children and families”. We know that is not the Government’s intention. The previous Government’s intention was not that it should become an overriding factor but because of what happened, we need to think very carefully about the message if we take it out completely.
Perhaps I could move on to a couple of other issues in relation to overseas adoption. First, I am very disappointed that the Government have rejected our recommendation to extend priority access to schools for children adopted from care overseas. Why not? This is very mean-minded, as we are not talking about a large number of children. These children, as much as any who have been adopted from care in this country, have gone through difficult situations and if the parents have chosen the school they think is most suitable for them, they should be given their wish.
Secondly, there is the visa applications delay. It is complete agony for parents who have gone through all the processes of being approved to be parents of a child adopted from overseas to then have to wait for a visa application. It comes as no surprise when a visa application is put in for a child to be adopted from overseas; the parents have been going through this process for years. Is there no way in which some kind of conditional visa could be issued, subject to the proper approvals and the adoption going through with the authorities both in this country and the country of origin of the child, so that could then be ratified quickly once the adoption has gone through? It is not a good start to the adoption of a child from overseas to have to be separated from the new parents.
Finally, perhaps I might say a quick word about family group conferencing. Again, best practice is something that we as a Government should be doing everything to disseminate. I noticed that where we recommended that family group conferencing should always happen, the Government’s response to our report said that it is not appropriate in some cases and that the family has to agree to it. You could always make it conditional on the family agreeing to it. At the very least, should we not be saying in guidance that family group conferencing should always be considered as long as the family accepts it? It can reduce delays, which is what we all want. We can avoid situations where family members come forward at the last minute, when all the other processes have gone through, so that we have to do all the assessments and there will be further weeks of delay for that child. We have heard that every week’s delay is bad and contributes to the damage that that child suffers. I hope that the Government will consider those few suggestions.
The Earl of Listowel
I add my thanks to the members of the Select Committee and to my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss for their hard work and for this debate. Their work could hardly be more timely or the committee’s membership more expert and authoritative. I declare my interest as a patron of the National Association of Independent Reviewing Officers, a trustee of the Michael Sieff Foundation, a patron of Voice, which provides advocacy services for looked-after children, the Who Cares? Trust, which provides publications to children in care enabling them to know their rights, and the Caspari Foundation, which provides support for children with learning difficulties in schools.
I thank the Government for their welcome endeavours on adoption. We have been extremely fortunate to have had an outstanding Minister for Children in Tim Loughton MP, and his successor, Mr Edward Timpson MP, seems set to be equally remarkable. The commitment of the Secretary of State, the right honourable Michael Gove, is deep and derives from his personal experience.
I strongly support the Select Committee’s call for stronger rights to post-adoption support and highlight the need for the Government to extend their zeal to the full range of placements and services for vulnerable children and families. I praise the developing policy on children’s homes, which is not mentioned in the report but can be considered one route into placement stability. Will the Select Committee reconsider its recommendations on independent reviewing officers? Having heard what I have heard, I think the committee may well be right, but it is a contentious issue. It is very worrying that IROs have such high case loads. I join the Select Committee in asking the Government to gather more information about adoption breakdown.
On Her Majesty’s Government’s response to the report from the committee, I have mentioned independent reviewing officers. Much has already been said about the comments on post-adoption support, but I shall highlight one area. The Government have commissioned the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence to produce materials for health professionals and will be looking to NICE to consider how teachers might be provided with a wider range of resources in this area. I commend the Government’s work in this area. I know its importance from the Caspari Foundation. It is essential that teachers have a better idea of child development and of what happens with children who have experienced trauma. I hope the Minister has a chance to speak with Charlie Taylor, the head of the National College for Teaching and Leadership, about these matters. He is well informed about them as a former head teacher of an EBD school.
The importance of expertise in the family court was mentioned in the debate. I highlight the need for the best expert witnesses to advise the courts in these matters. I understand the Government’s concern that in the past too many expert witnesses have been appointed in the court. This may perhaps have been because of a lack of confidence in judges, but in reducing the number of expert witnesses and saving the courts money I hope the fact that the court still needs to attract the best expert witnesses is not overlooked. As has been mentioned, there is a lot of contention about the judgment of psychiatrist and psychologists. One needs to attract the best of these people, to give the best advice and have the best outcomes for children.
There are concerns about the reduction of payments to expert witnesses. It causes me concern because we need to attract the best experts and get the best evidence for these courts. The noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, raised the importance of the first two years of life and intervening early to prevent such problems as we are discussing today. She talked particularly about the importance of health visitors and midwives in early intervention. I take this opportunity to say how concerned I am about the need for the best support for children under two. I was pleased to hear the Minister’s recent comments on the changes in childcare ratios, insisting that whatever happens the result will be better childcare. Indeed, it must.
Reflecting on a time not so long past, I recall the noble Earl, Lord Howe, making an eloquent case for the assessment of adopters’ needs and for duties on local authorities to meet those assessed needs in the course of past adoption legislation. I remind your Lordships of the young man I worked with a few years ago in north London. I had a summer placement on a play scheme and this 10 year-old was just about to be placed for adoption. In the lunch hour, he would rock himself in a tractor tyre in the setting. During activities, he would simply walk away and a member of staff would have to trail him on his journeys. He repeatedly got himself into arguments and fights with the other children. One saw in him what one would expect in a child who has experienced multiple trauma, multiple losses of carers, abuse or neglect. He had regressed to a much earlier stage of his development: he was more an infant than a 10 year-old in many ways.
Adopters need to be supported when they adopt such challenging young people. I am grateful for the recognition of this in the Government’s response. The prospect of inadequate support and a further placement breakdown, a further trauma or loss for the child, is unthinkable but not so unusual. As has been pointed out many times today, we simply do not know how often placement breakdown happens, and the details of why. That needs to be addressed.
Adopters also need to be supported in managing any contact the child may have with his biological parents and his siblings, and in speaking with the child about his past. Yesterday, I spoke with a care leaver about his experience. He repeated what he had said in the past: good communication is key to a child’s success through care. Adoptive parents need to have the confidence to be honest with their adopted children. The current film release “The Place Beyond the Pines” has a scene in which an adolescent tells his mother that she had lied to him, before he leaves the house to seek revenge for his father's killing. He had been told by his mother that his father had had an accident rather than that he had been shot dead. That moment seems uncanny in its appropriateness to our debate today. The young man says to his mother, “You are a liar”. One would not wish that to happen in any adoptive situation. Unless adoptive parents are really well supported, there may be similar difficulties when adolescence comes.
I will make a few comments on the challenges of adolescence. I have worked with 16 to 23 year-olds over a number of years. I have witnessed a teenager self-harming, have come across girls who may have been at risk of being groomed, have spent time both with young men who can suddenly start an outburst of anger and hatred from seemingly nowhere and with young men who in depression, as has been mentioned already, are unable to stir from the couch on which they lie.
It is generally accepted that children in the course of their development go through a period of latency between the ages of five to 10 years-old and then, as they enter adolescence, a period in which they recapitulate their earliest development, from nought to five, with its jealousy, tantrums and all its uncontrollable feelings. However, in adolescence, they experience this in bodies that can act on these impulses. They can hurt themselves or others, they can take what is not theirs, and they can set the house on fire if they choose to. Adopters need help, therefore, when their child enters adolescence. Early trauma that may have lain dormant will more than likely reappear in these years. Adopters need a right to the assessment of need and to services when their child enters adolescence.
I will now say a few words in praise of the Government’s developing policy on children’s homes. The Select Committee asks the Government to look across all placements for vulnerable children for routes to permanence and not to restrict its attention to adoption. I hope I can reassure members of the committee and the chair that progress is being made in the small but important area of children’s residential care.
There is scarcely time to do justice to this topic. The coverage on the front pages of the Times, the Guardian and the Daily Telegraph yesterday on the abuse of girls as young as 12 who were in the care of Oxford local authority illustrates both the need for action and the distance we need to travel. This is just about a year on from the conclusion of the Rochdale case.
I will quote from the website of Ann Coffey MP, who has led work in this area and who refers to information released by the Government on 4 April of this year, which says:
“In future the police will be given the names and addresses of children’s homes in their area so that they can better protect vulnerable children. Rules will also be changed so that children’s homes in unsafe areas—such as in the same street as a bail hostel housing paedophiles—can be closed down or refused registration. There will also be stricter rules on out of area placements where children are placed in homes miles away from their home areas. Almost half of all children are placed in children’s homes out of their areas and this makes them susceptible to sexual predators … In future the government wants a decision to place a child in care away from their home town to only be made by a senior council official, who will have to be satisfied that the placement is in the child’s best interest. The new rules will also set out a requirement for the placing authority to consult with the local area authority before they place a child in a home. There will also be a duty on homes to notify local area authorities when children move in from other local authority areas and when they leave the home. … Better and more intense training will be set up for staff working in children’s homes and rules tightened to ensure that existing staff have completed minimum qualifications within a set period of time”.
I could go on. I pay tribute to Ann Coffey, whose report last year on children missing from care, facilitated by the charity the Children’s Society, led directly to these changes. Indeed, she sat on one of the working groups leading to this policy.
I hope your Lordships will find the Government’s progress on children’s homes encouraging. I am confident that they will feel, as I do, that much more needs to be done. However, the Government should be commended for a good start in this area. I conclude by repeating my thanks to the Select Committee, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the committee for their very impressive work on the adoption legislation.
Both reports that we are debating today represent a thorough and wise insight into the real issues being faced by adoption agencies and families around the country. I was impressed that the Committee has drawn extensively on its witness interviews and the evidence it had received and that, as a result, its recommendations are not based on ideology but on cold, hard facts and real experiences. As such, we see the reports as a genuine opportunity to embrace some fresh thinking in this area.
We remain proud of the fact that the last two pieces of adoption legislation in 2002 and 2006, introduced by the previous Government, genuinely transformed provision and put children’s rights at the heart of the process. However, we also see the need to reflect, learn and move on, and I hope that we can do this today.
I also hope that the Minister is genuinely minded to listen and engage with the debate given the imminent arrival of the Children and Families Bill in your Lordships’ House, which will result in the opportunity for these issues to be debated even more widely. While on this subject, can the noble Lord update us on the proposed timetable for the Bill’s arrival in this House, as there seems to be an ominous silence on that matter?
Having read through the reports again, I was struck also by how little the legislation requires changing. This point was made by a number of noble Lords. The more fundamental challenges that we face are about funding, training, the quality of reports, joint working and improved communication. I hope that these issues will not be lost when we finish debating the Bill, and that we can find a way to return to them. Perhaps a post-post-legislative scrutiny report will be required from the committee. I am sure that it would do a very good job.
I will highlight some issues in the report where there might be differences of approach between us and the current Government. A number of points that I will make echo those raised by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in her excellent introduction to the debate. First, we believe that the benefits of adoption over other permanent care solutions have been overstated. As the report points out, adoption is a sensible route out of care only for a proportion of children, and there is a danger that the current emphasis on this option will skew resources away from those providing equally beneficial forms of care. This point was made eloquently by my noble friend Lady King. Therefore we believe that it is essential, when a child’s future care options are assessed, that all potential provisions are considered on an equal footing, including long-term fostering, kinship care and special guardianship. We would like to see this in the Bill.
Secondly, we believe absolutely in the importance of early intervention. This means early intervention in supporting birth mothers and early intervention if a decision is needed to remove a child into care. This is why we have been so frustrated that the Government have allowed the Sure Start schemes to wither on the vine through lack of funding. This was and is a cost-effective way of providing community support and education to new mothers, particularly in deprived areas. It encourages new mothers to step out of the isolation of a potentially dysfunctional home environment and learn how to nurture their child successfully. It is crucial for identifying family problems from birth. I echo the points made by my noble friend Lady Armstrong concerning the role that health visitors and midwives can play. No other schemes that the Government are proposing come anywhere near the scale and comprehensiveness of the services that are being disbanded.
Early intervention also requires social workers with the training, judgment and experience to act decisively when a family is unable to meet the expectations of basic care and nurture. This is inevitably a tough call and should not be made alone. Equally, we should not allow bureaucratic form-filling to get in the way of social workers acting in the child’s best interests, and should not allow parents to play the system and drag out any chance of their child being removed and having a better life. These issues go to the heart of how we value, judge and reward good performance among social workers. I agree very much with the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, with her considerable experience.
Thirdly, there has been considerable debate about the status of ethnicity in matching children to potential adopters. We believe that the wording on this in the previous legislation was clear. It made it clear that the interests of the child were paramount, and that in this context due consideration should be given to their religion, race, culture and linguistic background. Since then, there have been a number of allegations that the requirement is being overprescribed, leaving children trapped in care and awaiting a perfect racial match. The extent to which this has happened is difficult to quantify, but if the fundamental principles of placements need to be restated, let us use this opportunity to do so.
We are concerned that the Government have moved too far in the opposite direction by attempting to remove altogether the reference to ethnicity. Again, I echo the point that it would be helpful if the Minister would clarify the Government’s position, because it appears that by denying that we risk causing real hardship and unhappiness to children by placing them in families that do not understand their heritage. That is why we will push in the Bill for ethnicity to be listed as a welfare factor in the checklist to be taken into account in the matching process. This point was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley.
Fourthly, we absolutely understand the argument that there are too many adoption providers in England, which reduces the scope for making successful matches for adoption. Clearly, it is not acceptable that agencies guard information about suitable adopters or children awaiting adoption and are not prepared to share it for the common good. We are pleased to see that consortia and joint local authority working, combined with improvements to the national register, are beginning to address these problems. Further funding and inspection mechanisms could be used to make this the norm.
However, we share the concern of the committee that it is premature for the Secretary of State to take on extra centralising powers, in addition to the swathe of powers that he has already taken across the education sphere, to force outsourcing of adoption services. If anything, this might result in a greater fragmentation of the service at a time when streamlining is required. In addition, we want to be assured that proper measures are in place to scrutinise the decision-making process of the Secretary of State and hold him to account when the outsourcing of services is imposed. This is something that has been missing in other aspects of education provision, and we will return to the issue during the course of the Bill.
Finally, the key to judging how successful any measures are is to look at the outcomes. We know from statistics that looked-after children have worse health, education and employment outcomes than their peers, and this should continue to be a real worry for us. We have also heard that the older the child being adopted, the more likely it is that the adoption breaks down. However, as the report suggests, we need more hard facts on this. We believe that it is our responsibility to compensate looked-after children for the effects of early trauma, including removal from their birth mother, by providing extra investment in their care and support so that they can catch up and have parity with their peers. One way of doing this is to provide all looked-after children with a virtual school head, who will take responsibility for their educational attainment. We are also keen to explore other means by which outcomes can be measured and improved. Again, we will raise these issues during the course of the Bill.
I am grateful for the opportunity to raise these issues today as a rehearsal for the issues arising in consideration of the Bill. Again, I thank the committee for providing such a comprehensive prism through which to judge the Government’s proposals, and look forward to the Minister’s response.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash)
My Lords, I would first like to congratulate the noble and learned Baroness on securing this debate. I would also like to thank her and other noble Lords for giving me the opportunity to hear the many thoughtful contributions to it. Finally, I would like to thank the noble Baronesses and noble Lords who served on the Adoption Legislation Committee for the authoritative and considered report that we are debating today.
Every child has the right to belong to a family. When they cannot live with their birth parents, we must ensure they are provided with a safe and loving alternative family that can meet their needs. There is overwhelming evidence of harm being done to vulnerable children and inexcusable levels of drift and delay in care and adoption services. That is why, alongside our work to improve outcomes for children in care, the reform of the adoption system is a major priority. I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for his words about that matter. This reform really matters, for deep, personal reasons, to our education Ministers—to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education, who was himself adopted, and to my honourable friend Edward Timpson, whose parents fostered 87 children and who has two younger adopted siblings. I assure noble Lords that that experience drives Ministers to care equally about all children in care.
I appreciate that the committee is as disturbed as the Government are by the unacceptable delay in matching an adoption for those children for whom adoption is the right decision, as well as about the delays in processes and the shortage of adopters. We are already addressing many of those issues, but the report is extremely valuable and a considerable contribution to the debate on adoption reform, and we will continue to reflect on its recommendations in our work going forward. We will submit a full response to the report before the Children and Families Bill is considered in detail by a Committee of this House.
I should now like to respond to some of the points made by noble Lords. I am delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, thinks that the Bill is in relatively good shape and I look forward to its speedy transition through your Lordships’ House. I believe that our hearts are all in the same place on this matter although we may differ on some of the methodology used to achieve these goals.
We believe that the Children and Families Bill carefully strikes the necessary balance between putting in place a maximum 26-week time limit to tackle delay in all cases while also allowing sufficient judicial discretion to extend time where necessary to resolve the case justly, having explicit regard to the child’s welfare. The Bill also ensures that when making any timetabling decision, including whether to grant an extension, the court must have specific regard to the impact on the welfare of the child. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, a family group conference helps to ensure that all relevant measures are considered.
I am pleased to address the points concerning reform of adopter recruitment. We have identified several problems with adopter recruitment such as the small scale of many adoption agencies and the fact that local authorities look first to their own adopters and then to adopters recruited by organisations with which they have an arrangement. Only if these are unsuccessful, and after an unnecessary delay, might they consider adopters recruited by voluntary adoption agencies. Not only does this create delay for children, but it also artificially narrows the choice of adopters that social workers have when looking for the best match for a child. This is simply wrong. Decisions should legally and morally be on the basis of what is best for the child, not on the basis of organisational convenience. It is for this reason that, while we welcome all improvements in recruitment of adopters, we want to be certain that bureaucratic arrangements do not lock out choice for children. Because of the nature of this problem, while we would like to see the reforms we need being put in place by the sector itself, and we would like, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, to see local authorities working together. We have had to accept, based on historic experience, that it may be necessary for the Government to direct local authorities to achieve changes, as the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, said. We would, though, use this power only if the Secretary of State felt it was absolutely necessary to direct that services be pushed outwards, not to achieve efficiencies or because of ideology but to improve the lives of children now and in the future. This is about opening up services, not centralising power.
Many noble Lords spoke about post-adoption support. I appreciate that the committee considers that the package of reform does not go far enough without a duty to provide support. We are listening carefully to all the arguments on this issue. We published on 3 May an “adoption passport” setting out all the rights of adoptive families. This will improve awareness among adopters and local authorities, particularly of the right to an assessment, remove any stigma from seeking help and improve access to support when parents move to another local authority area and over the lifetime of the child.
The noble Baroness, Lady King, referred to freelance workers. I am pleased to say that, through the Children and Families Bill, we are bringing greater equality for adopters in terms of rights to pay and leave. I will write to the noble Baroness on self-employed adopters.
Racial matching was raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hamwee, Lady Walmsley and Lady Jones. Our view is that an overemphasis on this area has contributed to the delays, such that black children take on average a year longer to be adopted, and that that conceals a number who wait so long that they never get adopted. We believe that a nudge on this is not the way to change behaviour but that we should remove the wording altogether, as is proposed, so that we can change practice, which is what we are after. Of course, we will be looking for social workers to come to a balanced decision, weighing up all the relevant factors, one of which will, of course, be ethnicity. However, as I say, we are convinced that to change practice we should remove the wording as the fact is that for certain children there are just not enough adopters of the appropriate race. If, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, says, the use of the provision is not widespread, why does it take a year longer for a black baby to be adopted? As I understand it, we will not be putting the wording into the checklist. We do not believe that it is realistic that social workers will swing back to no emphasis on ethnicity. It is just not in their nature, particularly if they are better trained, as we intend them to be.
The noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, made points about changing the behaviour of parents in early intervention. The points were well made and we have a substantial programme under way across departments on the most challenged families with multiple problems, but I agree that there is more to do. We remain committed to early intervention, continue to be interested in local initiatives, and are pleased that the ADCS acknowledges that local areas are already working hard to address this issue. Ofsted inspections are looking at the effectiveness of early intervention and will share good practice when it is found.
There is no firm data yet on the number of adoption breakdowns, although some research has looked at subsets of adopted children. The Department for Education has commissioned research into the number and causes of adoption breakdowns, and it is expected to be completed early next year. We began collecting data on the number of adoption breakdowns from April 2013, and the data should be available from October next year.
On the points made by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, about children not being consulted, they are supposed to be, and we will look at sharpening up our guidance on this and what we can do to encourage child advocacy.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, raised the question of the status of social workers. We are determined to do something about this. We continue to work to raise their quality and improve their recruitment and retention. We have asked Sir Martin Narey to undertake a review of initial social work training, and his findings will inform further work.
On the point about overseas children referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, we mentioned the matter in our response to the Select Committee’s post-legislative scrutiny. I have the wording here, which I will send to her and we can discuss it.
We are carrying out work on social impact bonds. I am very encouraged by the progress being made by the Consortium of Voluntary Adoption Agencies in the development of a social impact bond approach to finding and supporting families for children with complex needs. This kind of innovative approach has the potential to shift thinking about adoption support, whereby it can be seen as an investment rather than a cost. This could be of great benefit to the increasing number of children with complex needs who are waiting for families. Although not directly involved in the bond, my department is keeping in close contact with the CVAA as plans develop.
I understand why the descendants of adopted people may want to find out more about their relative’s history. We need to balance this, however, against the rights and wishes of adopted adults and, where the adopted adult has died, their birth family. It is open to anyone to apply to the Registrar-General for a copy of any person’s birth certificate, and this includes the birth certificate of an adopted person. However, there are cases in which the applicant does not have sufficient information to apply for a birth certificate. The issue was referred to the Law Commission in 2010, and although at present we have no plans to change the law, we intend to keep it under review.
On our adoption reforms, in March 2012 the Government published An Action Plan for Adoption: Tackling Delay, setting out the steps to be taken to streamline the adoption system so that more permanent loving families for more children can be found quickly and effectively. Through the action plan and subsequent policy announcements, we outlined our proposals for tackling delay and improving the involvement of adopters in different parts of the system. Collectively, our reforms are intended to reduce the delays faced by children awaiting adoption and create a system better able to focus on the needs of those children with more active involvement and support from adopters.
The new adoption website and helpline that we have just launched, First4Adoption, is an example. Noble Lords will also be aware that we have recently laid regulations before the House that will bring into force on 1 July this year the new two-stage adopter approval process, the fast-track procedure for adopters and foster carers, and other changes that have been welcomed by the sector.
Noble Lords may also be aware that we have been fulfilling our commitment to publish more and better data on the adoption system through adoption scorecards, so that the progress of those organisations that are doing the most to help the children who need adoption can be recognised, and those that are not can be identified.
Finally, as I have, I hope, made clear, we welcome the committee’s thoughtful and informed contribution to developing adoption policy and legislation. Again, I thank the noble Lords who served on the committee and contributed their thoughts today for the breadth of the issues that have been raised, many of which the Government will consider in more depth over the coming weeks and months. I look forward to debating the Bill in your Lordships’ House, and that is likely to be in July.
I know that noble Lords share our commitment to improving the lives of children and I hope they will agree that we are addressing many of the issues raised in the committee’s reports. We will, none the less, continue to reflect on the committee’s extremely helpful recommendations as we continue to reform and improve adoption. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to today’s important debate.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I thank all those who have contributed to the debate for the absolutely fascinating speeches that we have heard this afternoon. They have ranged widely over all sorts of areas of child need and welfare.
I say to the Minister that I personally accept the very good work that is already being done by the Government on adoption and, indeed, fostering, as well as in dealing with children’s homes, as my noble friend Lord Listowel said. However, will the Minister, and particularly his officials, look at the very cogent evidence that we received on the danger of entirely excluding ethnicity from the legislation? We got that evidence from people whom we thought were worthy of listening to and whom we would have thought the Government would think were worthy of listening to. My recollection is that Coram and BAAF were among them. As I think the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said, there is a danger that social workers who make ethnicity too important a consideration will say, “Well, now it’s gone, we have to ignore it”. That is what the people on the ground who know about it were telling us. Therefore, I should be grateful if the Minister’s officials would have a look at the evidence that we received. They have all that evidence and it is well worth looking at.
In this debate there have been some preliminary shots across the bow concerning what is likely to be coming in the Children and Families Bill. As we heard from the Minister, that is now likely to be in July—and, I assume, well beyond July. The Minister is likely to be challenged by me, among others, over several issues to which I have not yet referred. I look forward to those opportunities and hope that the Government will be a listening Government on matters which we will press and on which the Government might be well advised to listen carefully.