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Oral Answers to Questions
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
1. What assessment she has made of the effectiveness of UK border controls during the summer of 2011.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
With permission, Mr Speaker, before I respond to the hon. Gentleman’s question, I should like to apologise for the unexpected absence due to a family emergency of the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), and for the absence of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, who is in Northumbria, representing the Government at a memorial service for PC David Rathband. I had the privilege of meeting PC Rathband, who was a brave and fine police officer. He is a huge loss to the police service and his local community and I am sure that the whole House will want to join me in sending our condolences to his family.
On border controls last summer, as the House is aware, I commissioned the chief inspector of the UK Border Agency, John Vine, to conduct an independent investigation into the unauthorised suspension of border checks during that period. The Vine report revealed unauthorised suspensions of checks, poor communication and poor record-keeping since 2007. I have accepted all the report’s recommendations and we have appointed Chief Constable Brian Moore to lead a new border force as an operational command separate from UKBA.
Mr Bain
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for that answer. Do not the Vine report’s devastating conclusions that border checks were downgraded more than 2,000 times last summer on the instructions of the Immigration Minister, without even the Home Secretary having been consulted first, and that fewer people were stopped at Heathrow airport and other ports last year compared with 2010 show that the tackling of illegal immigration became completely dysfunctional last summer under this Government? Will not the fight against that be further undermined by the cutting of 6,500 staff within the UK Border Agency?
Mrs May
The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is no, and he put some things into his question that I challenge. First, the Immigration Minister did not instruct that certain checks should be suspended last summer. The hon. Gentleman tried to put quite a lot into his question in relation to the impact of border security checks on illegal immigration. I have to say that it would be a lot easier to take questions on immigration from the Labour party if it had not left this country’s immigration system in such a mess when it left government.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Will the Home Secretary inform the House how many EU migrants have visited the United Kingdom since the summer of 2011 as a result of the economic difficulties in the eurozone? What contingencies has she put in place should there be a part or full collapse of the euro?
Mrs May
The latest figures for migration from various parts of the world that have been published are publicly available but they do not go up to the date that my hon. Friend has requested. We are aware of the issue of EU migration, which is why when we came into government we committed to ensuring that any future new member states entering the European Union would have transitional controls placed on them—something that the previous Labour Government failed to do for those early new entrants to the EU such as Poland.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
Having effective border controls means preventing the wrong people from coming in and removing undesirable people from this country. The Home Secretary has just come back from Jordan, where she met the King. She was given cast-iron guarantees about the treatment of Abu Qatada were he to return to Jordan, so why is Mr Abu Qatada still in this country?
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman makes certain claims for what happened when I was in Jordan. We had very positive and constructive discussions with a number of representatives of the Jordanian Government and I had the privilege and pleasure of meeting the King. Further work is being undertaken by the lawyers as we speak. As I have said before to hon. Members, my intention is to ensure that when we are able to deport Abu Qatada as we all want to be able to do, we are able to make that deportation sustainable.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary agree that it is really shocking that we have had a relaxation of our border controls from 2007 onwards about which Parliament was never told? Will she confirm that since that came to light she has been taking action to reintroduce the concept of border security for our country?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding us that the Vine report indicated that there had been problems with border controls since 2007—a fact that, sadly, Members on the Opposition Front Bench seemed unable to recognise when the Vine report came out. We have, indeed, reinstated full border security checks—that is absolutely right and proper—and we have taken action to make sure that by separating the UK border force from UKBA it can concentrate on the issue of establishing and maintaining proper security at our borders.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I, too, convey apologies to the House, from my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary, who is with the Policing Minister in Northumbria at the memorial service for PC Rathband. As the Home Secretary rightly said, he was a very brave police officer, and our thoughts and prayers are with his family, and his colleagues in the Northumbria police. It just goes to show that, for a police officer, harm’s way can come in many different guises.
On 9 November last year, the Minister for Immigration said:
“this pilot was a success”—[Official Report, 9 November 2011; Vol. 535, c. 358.]
As it was such a great success, will the Home Secretary repeat the pilot this year, and if not, why not?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman knows full well, because this was reported to Parliament when I made a statement on the chief inspector’s report on security checks, that the initial figures that we were given last year about the summer pilot did indeed show some success, in terms of the seizure of items such as drugs. However, when the chief inspector came to look at the whole issue, he discovered that there had been some other unauthorised relaxation of security checks, and that the recording had not been complete; it was therefore not possible to give a full evaluation of that pilot.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
2. What plans she has for the Forensic Science Service’s DNA database.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
Since April 2007, the National Policing Improvement Agency, not the Forensic Science Service, has administered the national DNA database.
Chi Onwurah
In announcing the closure of the Forensic Science Service, the Minister for Immigration said:
“A competitive market can help drive down prices and improve turnaround times”—[Official Report, 17 May 2011; Vol. 528, c. 58WH.]
Last month, a contaminated DNA sample led to the wrong person being charged with rape, and next month the manufacturing consumables DNA database will be destroyed because the private sector does not have the necessary research infrastructure. What will the Minister do to ensure that we maintain our world-beating forensic capability, both for research and criminal justice?
James Brokenshire
The hon. Lady referred to a specific case which she is no doubt aware the forensic science regulator is investigating. There is absolutely no indication that the case is linked in any way to the transition of services from the Forensic Science Service to commercial providers. She highlighted the need for certain electronic records to be maintained; as part of that transition, electronic records held by the FSS will transfer to the National Policing Improvement Agency by the end of this month. She asked about innovation; it is still very much part of the work that we are looking to forensics providers to do. That is why that is in the contract, and why we will follow through on recommendations.
Mr Speaker
We do need to speed up a bit. If the Minister could provide slightly shorter answers, that would be helpful to the House.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
In 1999, Michael Weir was convicted of the murder of Mr Harris. The only link to that crime was DNA found on a glove of Michael Weir’s. Michael Weir’s DNA was taken after he was arrested on a drugs-related charge that had been discontinued two years earlier; he had been discharged. Will the Minister confirm that under the Government’s new plans for DNA retention, Michael Weir’s DNA sample would no longer have been on the database, and Mr Harris’s murderer would never have been brought to justice?
James Brokenshire
My hon. Friend has consistently argued for the indefinite retention of DNA profiles. We certainly recognise the importance of DNA in solving crimes. It is rarely possible to say that convictions could not have been obtained without DNA evidence, although of course the availability of DNA evidence can frequently help to focus an investigation. We have been clear on ensuring that those convicted of crimes remain on the DNA database indefinitely, and speculative searches are undertaken on each occasion.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
May I press the Minister a little further on the high-profile rape case that collapsed due to sample cross-contamination at LGC Forensics? Also, a New Scientist survey shows that three quarters of forensic scientists expect that the coalition’s closure of the FSS will cause more miscarriages of justice. Will the Minister outline the steps that he is taking to ensure that the integrity of the criminal justice system is not undermined by a lack of confidence in the available forensic science services?
James Brokenshire
We have absolute confidence in the provision by forensic service providers, and I know that the hon. Lady accepts that private providers are well equipped and well able to offer services to police in future. On her specific question in respect of the individual case, I repeat that the forensic science regulator, Andrew Rennison, has launched an immediate investigation into the case. The initial investigation suggests that this is an isolated case. Although we will learn any lessons to be learned from the formal inquiry, there are no indications at this stage that it undermines the use of DNA or private providers providing services to the police.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
4. What recent assessment she has made of the level of applications for production orders by police forces.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
Production orders are a valuable tool for the police to use in the investigation of serious crime, but are issued only after careful scrutiny by a circuit judge. Information on the number of production orders made by individual police forces is not collated centrally. We have not, therefore, made any assessment of the level of applications.
Jonathan Edwards
The use of production orders by the police, such as in the case of Dale Farm, has the potential to increase risks for journalists as they are, in effect, seen as informers, as well as undermining journalistic independence. The National Union of Journalists is worried that the use of such orders is becoming more common. Will the Minister meet me, other concerned MPs and the NUJ to discuss the issue?
James Brokenshire
I understand that the National Union of Journalists has mounted an appeal in the courts against the granting of a number of orders, so I hope the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that it is difficult for me to comment on the specifics. Our understanding is that only a small minority of production orders are used to obtain journalistic material. The vast majority are made in relation to financial information. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to write to me, I will look into the specifics that he highlighted.
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
5. What steps she is taking to tackle gang-related crime.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
15. What steps she is taking to tackle gang-related crime.
The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)
The Government report on ending gang and youth violence published last November sets out a long-term, evidence-based programme to tackle gang and youth violence. The approach combines the early identification of children and young people most at risk of being drawn into gangs, providing ways out for those wanting to leave a gang, and tough enforcement against those who continue with a violent lifestyle.
Angie Bray
My hon. Friend will be aware that Ealing has been identified as one of the 30 top hot spots for gang problems. Our local borough serious youth violence team is already hard at work. Can the Minister update the House on what more the Government are doing to tackle knife crime, especially among young people?
Damian Green
The Government’s position is clear. Any adult who commits a crime using a knife can expect to be sent to prison, and serious offenders can expect a long sentence. The Home Office has committed £18 million of funding for 2011-13 to support the police, local agencies and the voluntary sector to tackle knife, gun and gang-related crime. As my hon. Friend says, Ealing has been identified as one of the 30 most affected areas. That is why it is one of the areas selected to receive additional support. It has been allocated more than £230,000 in provisional support, and I know that that money will be well spent.
Damian Green
My hon. Friend touches on an important point. It is clearly not just about attacking the offences and identifying the offenders—it is trying to stop them offending and joining gangs in the first place. That is why support for parents and families is at the heart of this programme. We have established an ending gang and youth violence team led by a detective chief superintendent from the Metropolitan police. The team will have access to advisers from a range of backgrounds, including community activists, local authority specialists and voluntary organisations, so that we can get to the roots of the problem as soon as it starts, long before the children join a gang.
Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Minister accept that among those who are most vulnerable to being drawn into gang activity, as well as being radicalised in various ways, are those who have spent a short period in custody? Will the Minister focus on making sure that those who come out of short periods of custody are targeted effectively so that they are not drawn into such activity?
Damian Green
The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point. That is precisely why we are not just treating this as a purely policing matter, but drawing in local authorities, voluntary organisations and other specialists, so that that kind of positive intervention to keep people on the right track and off the wrong track can be part of our overall strategy.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Minister update the House on the progress and uptake of gang injunctions and, in the light of that update, advise us on whether the Home Office is reconsidering its plan to abolish antisocial behaviour orders, which also have a role to play in tackling gang culture?
Damian Green
I think that the hon. Lady will recognise that ASBOs felt like a good idea at the time but did not work and straightforwardly failed. Far too many ASBOs were breached, and increasing numbers of them were breached the longer time went on. I am sure that the policy was devised with the best intentions, but it did not work, which is why we have moved on to other policies that will be more effective in combating antisocial behaviour and gang-related violence.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
6. What assessment she has made of the level of crime since May 2010.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
As the Home Secretary told the House last month, crime remains too high. That is why we are reforming the police so that they are free from unnecessary paperwork and free to fight crime. The national crime mapping website, police.uk, now provides the public with street-level information about crime and antisocial behaviour on a monthly basis, allowing them to obtain crime and policing information in a more accessible way.
Ian Lavery
My constituents are extremely concerned about the increase in crime, as outlined in the British crime survey, which shows an 11% increase in crimes against the person, including theft, robbery and violence against the person. When will the Home Secretary prioritise cuts against the cuts in police numbers?
James Brokenshire
I think I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making. When we look at police forces such as his, Northumbria police, we see that they have taken some really important steps to make savings and efficiencies while cutting crime at the same time. Rather than criticising the efforts of police forces such as Northumbria, which has seen a 15% fall in violence against the person, we should be supporting the steps they are taking to find efficiencies and dealing with the problems left by the previous Government.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
I am sure that the Minister will be pleased to join me in congratulating Derbyshire police, as crime in Derbyshire continues to fall, detection levels are at a record high, my constituents’ satisfaction with the police has gone up each year and they are meeting their savings targets.
James Brokenshire
I certainly congratulate my hon. Friend on working closely with his local police force. As he has highlighted, the important thing is how police officers are used. Better deployment, better shift patterns, reduced bureaucracy and increased scope for officers to use their professional judgment are steps that many forces are taking and that this Government support.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
As far as crime is concerned, does the Minister’s boss, the Home Secretary, accept that policing, particularly on the front line, should be done by the police? The suggestion that private security firms should undertake some of those responsibilities for West Midlands and Surrey police forces is simply unacceptable: policing should remain the responsibility of the police.
James Brokenshire
It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman appears to criticise the role of the private sector and looking at ways of providing innovative services, because I know that the shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), applauded and welcomed that type of innovation when in government. I can say to the hon. Gentleman that where warranted officers are needed for those services, that is absolutely what will happen. Surrey and West Midlands police forces are engaged in looking at innovation in back-office services.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
Despite the Opposition’s scaremongering, visible front-line policing in the Thames Valley has risen by more than 11% in the past two years, while recorded crime has fallen by 11%. Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating Chief Constable Sara Thornton and her team on demonstrating that it is possible to reduce crime while cutting bureaucracy and cutting budgets?
James Brokenshire
I certainly do congratulate Chief Constable Sara Thornton. Thames Valley has increased its visible policing, patrol and neighbourhood officer public reassurance, and that is an example of how efficiencies and a more focused approach can be provided while cutting crime.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)
7. What assessment she has made of the potential benefits of collaboration between police forces.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
10. What assessment she has made of the potential benefits of collaboration between police forces.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I welcome the increasing levels of collaboration between police forces and expect more forces to consider how to work together to make improvements and to save money. The Government have estimated that forces could save £350 million per year by collaboration on procurement and from IT. Further substantial savings could be made through collaboration in back-office functions.
Stephen Hammond
In 2009 the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said that he was “relaxed” about the collaboration of police forces with the private sector. Is the Home Secretary similarly relaxed?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and indeed I am similarly relaxed. In 2009 the current shadow Policing Minister said that he was not only very “relaxed” about collaboration between police forces and the private sector, but that police forces had Labour’s “blessing” to do it.
Eric Ollerenshaw
Does my right hon. Friend agree that collaboration between police forces, and indeed between police forces and other bodies, to get much-needed efficiencies is welcome at any time but is now essential in these challenging times, as we try to protect front-line police services and clear up the financial mess left by the Labour party?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. It is of course right that at all times police forces look at what efficiencies they can make, and at what collaboration they can enter into, to ensure that they are able to increase and improve the service that they provide to the public, but while forces are having to make budget cuts because of the deficit that was left by the Labour Government, that is even more important.
Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)
Can the Home Secretary tell us why the collaboration between West Midlands police and Surrey police on the long-term privatisation of large parts of the police service, including some core functions, is going ahead before the election of police and crime commissioners? Surely she sees that that undermines, potentially, the commissioner’s role in setting the strategic direction of the police force.
Mrs May
Police forces throughout the country are rightly looking at collaboration, but there are different ways in which they can do so. West Midlands and Surrey police forces are looking at innovative ways in which they can bring in the private sector to ensure that they are able to make the savings that need to be made while delivering the service that the public expect them to deliver. It is important that police forces have been looking at the matter for the past two years, and in advance of the election of police and crime commissioners, because frankly we could not wait to start the job of clearing up the mess that was left by the previous Government in terms of the deficit.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Given that some of the collaboration initiatives could have a significant influence on the level of the police precept, who will have the final say on the initiative: the commissioner or the police and crime panels?
Mrs May
It is of course for the police and crime commissioner to set the budget and the strategic plan for any police force. We have put in place the opportunity for police and crime panels to question and challenge decisions made by the commissioner, but of course it is the commissioner who sets the precept.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
Will the Home Secretary use this opportunity to confirm that collaboration should not extend to privatising 999 response teams, patrols or arrests?
Mrs May
I am happy to confirm to my right hon. Friend that only police officers have the power of arrest. They will continue to patrol the streets, to respond to 999 calls, and to lead investigations. The public expect the police to be experts in catching criminals, and that is what we want them to be. We do not want them to be experts in human resources or IT, which are entirely the sorts of areas that can involve collaboration with the private sector.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Of course, collaboration and sharing of good practice has been going on for very many years, including in national resilience. Would the Home Secretary not do better to put in place the collaboration arrangements that she talks about so fondly before making cuts of 16,000 in front-line policing?
Mrs May
Police forces up and down the country are doing what is necessary to make the savings that we are asking them to make. They are transforming the way in which they provide policing and rightly looking to ensure that the private sector can be brought in where that will increase efficiency and save money. A Labour Government would have cut police spending and reduced police budgets. Nobody on the Labour Front Bench has said that they would intend to reverse the cuts in police spending. It is about time that the Opposition stopped opposing every opportunity that we are giving the police to ensure that they can save money from back offices and get the police out on the streets.
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
8. What steps she is taking to ensure that people applying to settle in the UK can contribute to the economy.
The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)
On 29 February, we announced changes that will break the link between coming here to work and settling permanently and ensure that only those who make a significant economic contribution can stay. In future, most skilled workers will need to be paid a minimum salary of £35,000 to settle here.
Karen Lumley
I welcome the Minister’s comments. I am glad that settlement will no longer be an automatic consequence of long-term residence, but can he assure my constituents that that will be properly enforced?
Damian Green
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s support, and I can give her that assurance. The new measures will be no different in this regard from any other immigration route. She and the House may be aware that we have now reached 11,000 arrests of criminals, including murderers, rapists and illegal immigrants, as a result of the processing of advance passenger information through e-borders. In 2011, in a clampdown on sham marriages, we carried out over 300 enforcement operations and prosecuted almost 230 people. That is the kind of tough enforcement that we need, and now have, to back up our immigration system.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
Overseas domestic workers make a significant contribution to Britain’s economy, directly and indirectly, by allowing their employers to contribute to the economy. The changes to their visa that the Minister has announced put a large number of overseas domestic workers at risk of being trafficked, as we know from history. Would he be willing to meet me and representatives of Justice for Domestic Workers so that he can hear first hand about the impact that his proposed changes will have on overseas domestic workers?
Damian Green
I do not agree with the hon. Lady’s analysis of what we are doing. We are returning this route to its original purpose—to enable visitors from overseas to bring their domestic workers with them to the UK. Domestic workers will be able to come to the country for short periods with their existing employer, but should also leave with that employer. Individuals living in the UK should recruit domestic help from within the resident labour force. There is no justification for allowing low-skilled jobs to be filled from outside the European economic area. It is wrong to assert that a right to settle and bring a family to the UK is the most appropriate form of protection from abuse. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady and the shadow Immigration Minister, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who is chuntering from a sedentary position, have simply got this wrong.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
Does the Minister recognise the concern expressed by academics, universities and high-tech companies that this aspect of immigration policy and the rhetoric surrounding it is making it harder to attract and keep the best and brightest, who contribute so much to our society and economy? What assurances can he give to employers and their prospective employees that Britain will be open for the best and brightest?
Damian Green
I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurance of the facts. We have made changes to tier 1 —the top end of the immigration system—to encourage investors and entrepreneurs to come to the UK. We have created a special new route for the exceptionally talented in the arts and sciences. At the same time as reducing immigration numbers, we are making a more selective system that will show that Britain is open for business and that the brightest and the best can make a great future in this country.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
9. What recent assessment she has made of the level of physical assaults against journalists covering news stories.
The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)
Information on physical assaults against journalists covering news stories is not available from the police recorded crime statistics held by the Home Office. Journalists have the right to do their job in a safe environment and, like all members of the public, are protected by the law. If they are assaulted, the crime will be investigated and dealt with by the police.
Kelvin Hopkins
National Union of Journalists members are placed at risk when their material or sources are used by police forces through production orders. Does the Minister accept that journalists are independent news gatherers, not evidence gatherers for law enforcement, and that forcing them to hand over their journalistic material or sources places them at risk of attack? Will he agree to meet me and other members of the NUJ parliamentary group to discuss those matters?
Damian Green
As a former journalist and, indeed, a former member of the NUJ, I have every sympathy with journalists whose lives are put in danger. [Interruption.] The shadow Immigration Minister should not dwell on the fact that his Government organised for me to be arrested, because it was not their finest hour. I suggest that he withdraw that remark.
Mr Speaker
I am extremely grateful to the Minister. He is many things, but not, to my knowledge, a journalist. I am sure that he has concluded his answer.
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
11. What steps she is taking to tackle hate crime.
The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)
Last Wednesday, the Minister for Equalities launched “Challenge it, report it, stop it”, the Government’s new action plan for tackling hate crime. It sets out what we will do at the national level to help victims and professionals to challenge the attitudes that drive hate crime; give more victims the confidence to come forward; and make sure that the criminal justice system responds effectively when they do.
Stephen Lloyd
I am very concerned by recent reports that indicate that there has been a rise in abuse towards disabled people. Will the Minister confirm what the facts are behind the anecdotes, and what specific actions the Government are taking to address any rise in hate crimes towards disabled people?
Damian Green
I regret to say that my hon. Friend is correct. At a time when the reporting of other kinds of hate crime has declined, the latest figures, which are for 2010, show that the number of hate crimes against disabled people went up from 1,294 to 1,569. He is therefore addressing the right problem. It is the “report it” part of the action plan that I would point to, because more disabled people are reporting hate crimes to the police. We know that under-reporting is a huge problem, and one of the key themes of the action plan is to encourage more victims to come forward. We are doing that by allowing new ways of reporting such crimes, such as online and through third parties.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister for that answer and to the Government for their attention to hate crime. He will be aware that learning-disabled people are often particularly reluctant to report such crimes because they feel that they will not be believed. What steps are the Government taking to encourage all professionals to take all accusations of hate crime from such victims seriously?
Damian Green
The hon. Lady makes a very good point. That is why, as part of the action plan that the Minister for Equalities announced recently, the Home Office is funding organisations that support the victims of disability hate crime to find a way to make it easier for those who are particularly reluctant to report it to come forward.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
12. What steps she is taking to tackle metal theft.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
16. What steps she is taking to tackle metal theft.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
17. What steps she is taking to tackle metal theft.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
18. What steps she is taking to tackle metal theft.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
19. What steps she is taking to tackle metal theft.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced in a statement to the House in January, we are taking legislative action to tackle metal theft, including raising the financial penalties for rogue dealers, banning cash payments for scrap metal and giving the police powers to enter unregistered scrap yards. That is part of a coherent package of measures, which includes enhanced enforcement through the funding of a £5 million national metal theft taskforce.
Jake Berry
Rossendale and Darwen has been subjected to a spate of metal thefts, including from the mills and, on Thursday night, from a school in Lower Darwen. Will the Minister inform the House how quickly the cashless payment system will be introduced to stop this metallic crime wave?
James Brokenshire
I certainly recognise the impact that these crimes are having in communities up and down the country, and my hon. Friend highlights the problems in Rossendale and Darwen. Our amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill prohibiting cash payments will be debated in the Lords on Report tomorrow, and will come before this House in due course. The exact enactment date is subject to the Bill’s receiving Royal Assent, but we anticipate enactment later this year.
Nick de Bois
Forty Hall in my constituency is a 17th-century Jacobean mansion that is undergoing a £3 million refurbishment. There have been three thefts in the past year, including with violence against security guards. Speed of implementation is one thing, but will the Minister assure me that there will be speed of enforcement against criminals?
James Brokenshire
I accept absolutely my hon. Friend’s point about the need for strong enforcement, and I am sorry to hear of the problems experienced at Forty Hall in his constituency. A report was published today about threats to heritage sites. We have put forward £5 million for enforcement, which is already bearing fruit, with enforcement action taking place. For example, in the north-east more than 300 police officers and law enforcement personnel have visited scrap metal yards, £900,000 in cash has been seized, and a further operation—
Mr Speaker
Order. That is very informative, but I say to the Minister that it would be helpful if we could make some progress. Reading out great screeds just slows things down. It is quite straightforward, really.
Caroline Nokes
Last month, a bronze eagle statue was stolen from the memorial garden at the museum of Army flying in Middle Wallop in my constituency. The statue was placed there to commemorate brave Army aviators who had served their country. What discussions has my hon. Friend had with the Ministry of Justice about sentencing guidelines for those who desecrate memorials to our servicemen and women?
James Brokenshire
My hon. Friend highlights the significant community impact that metal thefts and desecrations of war memorials and other historical sites have had, and the often irrevocable harm that can be caused. The Bill is being considered in the other place as we speak, and the sanctions in it can lead to an unlimited fine. We will look to follow that through with colleagues in the Ministry of Justice.
Andrew Bingham
We in High Peak have also been victims of metal theft. Last November a popular tourist attraction, the Eccles Pike topograph, was removed from near Chapel-en-le-Frith. I am pleased to say that scrap yards in my constituency were given a clean bill of health during a multi-agency operation last year. Does the Minister agree that tackling metal theft by preventing cash for scrap without questions is the best way, and will be welcomed by the honest scrap metal merchants in my constituency?
James Brokenshire
My hon. Friend highlights the fact that the cashless approach is essential in driving out this crime, and I underline the point that he has very effectively made.
Fiona Bruce
Almost every Church of England church in my constituency has suffered metal theft. Will the Minister assure me that penalties for those found guilty of acts of metal theft will appropriately reflect the huge costs to local churches in seeking to repair damage, which far outweigh the scrap value of what is stolen?
James Brokenshire
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend about the impact of metal theft. The new provisions include an unlimited fine, and we will look closely at their impact as they come through.
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
Does the Minister not recognise that the public may be shocked that a cashless scheme might not be cashless under the Home Secretary’s proposals, which exclude mobile collectors? If they are exempt, that will create a huge loophole in the system. Does he not accept that resident householders have access to local recycling centres, local authority kerb-side collection and retail take-back and swap, and the option of going to a reputable dealer? Is the exemption not a giant loophole and an own goal?
James Brokenshire
The short answer is no. Those involved in door-to-door sales will need to trade their product through scrap metal dealers, so they will be subject to the Bill’s provisions.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
I am afraid that that answer is not really good enough. On what basis has the Minister determined that an exemption from cashless payments should be made for itinerant collectors of scrap metal? Will that not drive a Steptoe and Son-sized coach and horses through the rules, and will not people such as his hon. Friends whose communities have lost metal in war memorials, gates and rails be appalled by the existence of that loophole?
James Brokenshire
I would never cast the shadow policing Minister in the role of Del Boy, but I would say to him that the provisions we have brought forward will ensure that those involved in door-to-door selling must trade through a registered scrap metal dealership. They will therefore be subject to the restrictions on cashless payment. That underlines the fact that those itinerant collectors need to be registered and approved by local authorities and police—another form or enforcement that needs to be focused on.
Mr Speaker
Order. We have been somewhat delayed by the length of ministerial replies, but I am interested in hearing Back Benchers, so we will now hear Mr Gordon Henderson.
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)
13. What discussions she has had with police officers on the powers they need to deal with repeated antisocial behaviour in residential areas.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
We have had extensive discussions with the police and other front-line professionals on our proposals for simpler and more effective powers. Many recognise the need to improve the services to victims of persistent antisocial behaviour and we will work with a number of forces and their partners to trial our proposed community trigger this year.
Gordon Henderson
I thank my right hon. Friend for her answer. What are the Government doing to speed up the lengthy bureaucratic process they inherited so that local communities can combat antisocial behaviour faster and more effectively?
Mrs May
We consulted on replacing 18 of the existing powers with six new ones, but I am concerned about stories of victims reporting problems and not getting any action. Community trigger will give people the opportunity to ensure that action is taken by the police or other agencies, and we will work with a number of leading local areas, including Manchester and West Lindsey, to pilot the trigger this year, offering a better service to victims and communities.
Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)
The antisocial behaviour injunction is a tool used by social landlords to clamp down on nuisance tenants. Those landlords have obtained legal advice that if the Government replace that tool, the likelihood is that they will be left, to quote from the legal judgment, “literally powerless” to act, possibly for years. Will Ministers therefore keep the injunction?
Mrs May
I am very well aware that injunctions are often used effectively by social landlords to deal quickly with ASB. We want to build on their success in our new proposals so that they can be available to other organisations. We recognise the vital role that landlords play in tackling antisocial behaviour and are committed to strengthening their ability to deal with it.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
14. What steps she is taking to reduce levels of domestic violence.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Government’s updated action plan for our strategy to end violence against women and girls was published on 8 March. We have ring-fenced nearly £40 million of stable funding for specialist local domestic and sexual violence support services until 2015. The plan also includes new actions to help to reduce domestic violence, including a one-year pilot to test a domestic violence disclosure scheme from the summer of 2012.
Paul Maynard
I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. On a recent visit to the Awaken team in Blackpool, I was told that there is a clear correlation between domestic violence against young girls in the home and future exposure to child sexual exploitation. As the Home Secretary builds her policy, will she bear in mind the importance of that correlation and ensure that she works on that with the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who has responsibility for children?
Mrs May
The Department for Education and the Under-Secretary specifically are represented on the inter-ministerial group on violence against women and girls, which I chair. I welcome the excellent work being done by the Awaken project in Blackpool. We support multi-agency approaches to tackling child sexual exploitation. Indeed, the child sexual exploitation action plan includes measures to ensure that the local safeguarding children boards lead on tackling child sexual exploitation locally with a variety of partners.
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
A study by Women’s Aid has shown that 230 women fleeing violence and seeking refuge were turned away from refuges in this country on a typical day last year owing to the lack of space. Does the Home Secretary agree that turning any woman away from a refuge is unacceptable, and will she give an assurance to the House that no woman seeking refuge from domestic violence will be turned away on her watch? Yes or no?
Mrs May
Of course we all want to ensure that women who find themselves having to flee from domestic violence are given the support that they need. It is not the case, however, that no woman was turned away from refuges in the past. However, we are taking a slightly different attitude to this issue in the domestic violence protection orders. One thing that has always concerned me is that the victim of domestic violence—all too often a woman—is often forced to leave the home while the perpetrator is able to stay in the home. The point of the domestic violence protection order is to ensure that more women suffering from domestic violence can remain in their own homes.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Last Thursday, I made a written statement announcing the publication of the final report of Tom Winsor’s independent review of police pay and conditions. We are determined to implement reforms that will help police forces to fight crime. That includes maximising officer and staff deployment to the front line, incentivising crime fighting not form-filling, and helping to open up police leadership to the most talented, whatever their background. With those aims in mind, I am now carefully considering Winsor’s detailed and wide-ranging recommendations, and will announce the Government’s response in due course.
Grahame M. Morris
This weekend there have been reports of heavy-handed police tactics, including the deployment of armed officers and the use of kettling against protestors engaged in a peaceful protest against the Health and Social Care Bill outside the Department of Health. Given that this evening there will be 25 or more peaceful vigils and protests across the country, including six in the north-east, has the Home Secretary asked the police to exercise restraint in the policing of these peaceful protests and demonstrations?
Mrs May
How peaceful demonstrations and protests are policed is an operational matter for the force at the time. We are absolutely clear that people should have the right to protest peacefully, but it is also clear that on separate sorts of issues, such as those we have seen elsewhere in relation to people invading territory or violence around demonstrations, the police should police that appropriately as well. However, I am pleased to say that the case on kettling in the European Court was won last week, so that remains available to the police.
Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)
T3. Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating Merseyside police on ending the freeze on police constable recruitment introduced under the last Labour Government and on now recruiting more constables as it shifts more money into the fight against crime?
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
T2. There is real concern across the country that the introduction of police and crime commissioners will lead to a patchy, postcode lottery in victims’ support services. Will the Secretary of State support ring-fencing the vital resources devolved to commissioners?
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
T4. Home Office figures show that between April 2010 and March 2011, more than 150 foreign nationals, previously held in immigration centres but then released into the community, went on to reoffend. What is the Minister doing to deport these individuals?
The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)
My hon. Friend puts her finger on an important issue, and I am happy to tell her that last year we removed more than 4,500 foreign national offenders, many of whom had perpetrated crimes. We believe that when a foreign criminal poses a risk to the public, they should stay in detention, and we always vigorously oppose bail, but the UK Border Agency has to act within the law. However, foreign criminals in the community awaiting deportation will be subject to stringent reporting restrictions, and every effort is always made to remove them from the country as soon as possible.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
Why has the Home Secretary ruled out a free-post leaflet or candidate booklet for police and crime commissioner elections? Will she now heed the serious concerns raised by the Electoral Commission that internet-only access to candidate materials will disadvantage the poor, the old and those in rural areas—and, accordingly, help to address the poor turnout—or is that the intention?
Mrs May
We of course looked very carefully at the arrangements that we would put in place for making information available to voters in the police and crime commissioner elections. Instead of providing a free-post booklet to every household, what we are talking about is providing internet access. However, that does not mean that there will not necessarily be literature going out, because individual candidates will have expenses with which they will be able to make literature available; and indeed, it will be possible, from the internet access, to ask for written copies of the information that is available on the website.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
T7. Will the Home Secretary consider producing a wide-ranging study of the effectiveness of community sports programmes run by organisations such as the Active Communities Network in reducing crime and antisocial behaviour, particularly among young people?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the important role that sports activities can play in ensuring that young people are not drawn into, for example, gang activity. I was pleased to talk personally to the Premier League about its Kickz project, which is an extremely effective programme that I would commend to others.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
T5. Given that the Home Secretary blames everybody but herself for the deterioration in policing in the west midlands, will she tell us how privatisation of certain parts of the police service will improve it, or who she is going to blame next?
Mrs May
The police service will remain a public service. The activities that require warranted officers will still be undertaken by warranted officers. However, I should say to the hon. Gentleman that the Government who took some responsibilities away from warranted officers—such as detention, custody and escort jobs—so that the private sector could undertake them was not this Government, but his: the last, Labour Government.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
T8. Will the Home Secretary congratulate Kent police, which has increased the number of front-line police officers, has 520 more neighbourhood police officers on the beat, has been cutting crime and doing a great job, and has written to me complaining bitterly about this nonsense about a reduction in first-line responders?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me an opportunity to commend the work of Kent police. By transforming the way it undertakes policing and by looking at issues such as shift patterns, Kent police has been able to increase neighbourhood police officers by 520, which shows that money can be saved while maintaining or improving front-line services.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
T6. While the Home Secretary is congratulating Kent police, will she commiserate with the people of Greater Manchester, who, according to Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, will see the biggest cut in the number of front-line police officers? In particular, will she explain why, other than the Metropolitan police, Greater Manchester police will see more officers disappear than any other police force in the land, despite the fact that it covers what is still a relatively high-crime area?
Mrs May
I suggest that the hon. Gentleman look at the recent comment made by the chief constable of Greater Manchester. Referring to the police authority’s decision on the council tax grant, he thanked the authority for
“agreeing the budget which will allow us to start recruiting again and to continue to reduce crime and disorder.”
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
In the light of the discussions last week—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I apologise for interrupting the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but he deserves to be heard in an atmosphere of quietude.
Sir Menzies Campbell
In the light of the discussions last week between the Prime Minister and the President of the United States about extradition, is the Home Secretary now in a position to tell the House when she expects to respond to the Baker report?
Mrs May
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his question. As he will have seen from the Prime Minister’s comments following his discussions with the President, discussions are taking place between this Government and the American Government about the extradition treaty, and I will report shortly.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
T9. The number of passengers arriving at Liverpool John Lennon airport, which is Britain’s fastest growing airport, rose from 294,000 in quarter 1 of 2010 to 713,000 in quarter 3 of 2011. The vast increase coincided with the Home Secretary’s decision to open the doors of Britain without proper checks last summer. What guarantees can she give to the people of Liverpool that all 713,000 of those passengers had their passports checked?
Damian Green
I am glad that the local economy around John Lennon airport is flourishing and that more people are now using it. I am happy to reassure the hon. Gentleman and his constituents that, for the first time, full checks are now being operated at the border. As John Vine’s report showed, that had not been happening since 2007.
Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
Victims of domestic violence seeking residential support in a refuge currently fall into the Government’s exception category and have their housing benefit paid directly to the refuge. That is important for the victims, and important for securing finance for the refuges. May I urge the Home Secretary to have discussions with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that that arrangement can continue under universal credit?
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
The Home Secretary will recall that, following the riots last summer, there was widespread concern about the absence of policing, the police being outfoxed by technology, particularly BlackBerry Messenger, and an absence of intelligence. Following the Kirkin report, what will change, this summer and next?
Mrs May
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising an important point about the policing of the riots last summer. Following the riots, I brought together representatives of the Metropolitan police, the Association of Chief Police Officers, BlackBerry, Twitter and Facebook to look at the use of social media and social networks during the riots. Further discussions are taking place between ACPO, the individual forces and those organisations to ensure that the police are in a better position to deal with the wealth of information that becomes available on those social networks.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
Is the Home Secretary aware that there has been a reduction in reported crime in Bedfordshire, in spite of the budget cuts forced on it by the financial mess left by the last Government, and that there has also been no reduction at all in the number of front-line responders?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point about Bedfordshire police. I commend them for the work they are doing. He has highlighted that it is possible to make savings in police budgets while ensuring that the front-line service is maintained and, in some cases, improved.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
Further to the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) about Abu Qatada, we are now halfway through the three-month period set by Mr Justice Mitting for an agreement to be reached with Jordan. Does the Home Secretary expect to have met the deadline by the time we next meet for Home Office questions, or will Abu Qatada’s bail conditions have been revoked?
Mrs May
My reply to the right hon. Gentleman is the same as my reply to the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). There have been two ministerial visits to Jordan; the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire) has made one, and I have also done so. Home Office officials have been there separately as well. We are having positive, constructive discussions with the Government of Jordan about Abu Qatada, but while those discussions are continuing and while there are still legal issues to look into, I will go no further than that.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend welcome Cheshire constabulary’s radical approach to delivering support through a multi-purpose business service centre, which will go live in April? It will meet the needs of the Cheshire and Northamptonshire police forces, and it is being delivered with the support of private sector partners.
Mrs May
I am very happy to support the initiative being taken by Cheshire and Northamptonshire police. This is an excellent example of innovative thinking and of creating collaboration between the private sector and police forces to ensure that better services are available, and that the police are better able to cut crime, which is what the public want them to do.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
Does the Home Secretary agree that modern, strategically located police stations are an effective and essential part of modern policing?
Mrs May
What is important at grass-roots level is that the police make decisions about what makes sense to make themselves accessible to the public. In some cases, that will mean closing long-standing separate police station buildings and locating the police in alternative provision, perhaps in town centres.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Major serious and organised crime knows no geographical boundaries, so will my right hon. Friend congratulate the five east midlands police forces on coming together and collaborating in order to tackle this menace more effectively and to save the taxpayer £26 million over the next four years?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Those five east midlands police forces—I have visited them and spoken to them about this—are doing excellent collaborative work, not only on the tasks that they can undertake to reduce costs, but on improving their ability to fight crime.
Health and Social Care Bill
Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)
I seek leave to propose that the House should discuss a specific and important matter that I believe should have urgent consideration—namely, whether the House of Commons should defer consideration of Lords amendments to the Health and Social Care Bill until after the disclosure of the transition risk register. The other place is debating this issue imminently, and my colleagues and I thought it important for this House to have the opportunity to debate the matter, too. In just 24 hours’ time, this House will be asked to agree far-reaching changes to the NHS in England, drawn up, in large part, in the other place. As of now, however, Members find themselves in the highly unsatisfactory position of not being in possession of all relevant information needed to make a full and considered judgment on whether those changes should be allowed to proceed.
Reorganising the NHS at this time of financial stress might expose it to greater risk, and to establish the precise nature and scale of those risks, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) submitted a freedom of information request to the Department for its transition risk register on this reorganisation. Along with colleagues on the Opposition Benches, we have consistently argued that this information be published to inform the public and parliamentary debate.
That is not just my opinion; it is the considered opinion of the Information Commissioner, who has had the benefit of viewing the transition risk register. He ruled that
“disclosure would go somewhat further in helping the public to better understand the risks associated with the modernisation of the NHS than any information that has previously been published.”
The commissioner’s ruling has, in turn, now been endorsed by the Information Rights Tribunal. Indeed, the tribunal was brought forward presumably so that its deliberations could be concluded in time for its decision to influence the debate in Parliament. Ten days on, we have had no substantial response from the Government to this ruling, save to say that they await the tribunal’s detailed reasons. We note that the Government’s ability to appeal is limited to a point of law, not to re-open the merits of the case.
This is not a matter of the rights and wrongs of the Bill. It concerns the fundamental principle of the primacy of the elected House of Commons and its opportunity for scrutiny. Parliament has a right to know before it is asked to make a final judgment that will have huge implications for every person in our country. Many people would feel it wrong if the Government were to use procedural devices to prevent the House from seeing the transition risk register before the Bill had completed its passage through Parliament.
This is the last opportunity for this House to urge the Government to publish the register. If this House allows this situation to go unchallenged or even to pass without comment, it would represent a major weakening of the role of this House in scrutinising the legislation before us. I am grateful, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to make this request and I hope you will look favourably on it.
Mr Speaker
The right hon. Gentleman asks leave to propose a debate on a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely whether the House should defer consideration of Lords amendments to the Health and Social Care Bill until after disclosure of the NHS transition risk register. I have listened carefully to the right hon. Member’s application, and I am satisfied that the matter raised by him is proper to be discussed under Standing Order No. 24. I thus put the application to the House.
Application agreed to.
Mr Speaker
Order. [Interruption.] Order. The House is becoming too excitable. Let me say to the hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) that he is a very senior citizen in the House, and that I look to him for a display of statesmanship. I appear to have looked in vain.
The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) has obtained the leave of the House. The debate will be held tomorrow, Tuesday 20 March, as the first item of public business. It will last for one and a half hours, and will arise on a motion that the House has considered the specified matter set out in the application by the right hon. Gentleman.
Points of Order
(12 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will be aware that, last Thursday, a document—Cabinet papers from 1989 on the Hillsborough disaster—was leaked to the BBC. Many believe that the leak could only have come from a senior politician or a senior civil servant, or that the BBC itself must have had access to this sensitive documentation. There have also been suggestions that there may well be further leaks on a “drip, drip” basis, which will undermine the work of the Hillsborough independent panel. Given the urgency—
Mr Speaker
Order. I intend no discourtesy to the hon. Gentleman. What I am seeking to establish is: what is the point of order for the Chair? That is the question.
Steve Rotheram
Given the urgency of the situation, Mr Speaker, perhaps you can offer me guidance on the most appropriate parliamentary mechanism to ensure that as many Members as possible have the opportunity, and sufficient time, to debate the intricacies of such a complex issue.
Mr Speaker
There are a number of answers to the hon. Gentleman’s point of order. First, I do not give procedural advice to Members from the Chair. Secondly—as one wag has just observed from a sedentary position—it is open to the hon. Gentleman to consult the Standing Orders, and he could probably do so to his advantage. Thirdly, my genuine and constructive advice to the hon. Gentleman is that he should consult the Table Office about the variety of parliamentary devices that could be available to him, and could enable him further and better to pursue the matter.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Given the serious allegations that were made in the revelations referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram), should a Minister not come to the House and explain that those allegations against the Liverpool fans at Hillsborough are themselves scandalous?
Mr Speaker
I understand the very great strength of feeling on this matter, but I have ruled on the point of order. I respect the seniority and service of the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr Speaker
If the Home Secretary wishes to oblige, that is exceptionally obliging of her.
Mrs May
I do not intend to respond to the point made by the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), but I think it would benefit the House if I made it clear that a leak inquiry has been initiated by the Cabinet Office. I share the concern expressed by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) in his point of order about the impact that a leak of this sort will have on what is a very sensitive matter in the context of ensuring that the full information is put together by the Hillsborough panel, and I believe that the information in any documents should be shown to the families first and should not be leaked to the press in any form. I repeat that the Cabinet Office is undertaking a leak inquiry.
Mr Speaker
That was both helpful and courteous of the Home Secretary, and the House is immensely grateful to her.
Business without Debate
Delegated legislation
15:44 - The House divided: - Ayes: 290 / Noes: 200 - Question accordingly agreed to.
15:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 293 / Noes: 202 - Question accordingly agreed to.
European Union Documents
Protection of Freedoms Bill (Programme) (No. 4)
Lords Amendments | Time for conclusion of proceedings |
|---|---|
Nos. 16 to 18. | One hour after the commencement of proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments. |
Nos. 51, 52, 59, 68 and 133. | Three hours after the commencement of proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments. |
Nos. 1 to 15, 19 to 50, 53 to 58, 60 to 67, 69 to 132 and 134 to 145. | Four hours after the commencement of proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments. |
Protection of Freedoms Bill
(12 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
17:57 - The House divided: - Ayes: 200 / Noes: 286 - Question accordingly negatived.
20:05 - The House divided: - Ayes: 207 / Noes: 300 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 16.
Mr Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments 17 and 18, and Government motions to disagree.
James Brokenshire
The amendments would provide that powers of entry may be exercised only with the agreement of the occupier of the premises in question or on the authority of a warrant, unless the authority using the power
“can demonstrate that the aim of the use of the power would be frustrated if a warrant or agreement were sought.”
That restriction would be disapplied where the power of entry is being exercised by a trading standards officer, a constable or a member of the Security Service, or in pursuance of the protection of a child or vulnerable adult.
We are sympathetic to the objective underpinning the amendments. We all agree that powers of entry, particularly as they relate to peoples’ homes, should be subject to proper safeguards, but we believe that the blanket approach taken by the amendments is misconceived and, as such, could hamper legitimate enforcement activities and put lives at risk. The amendments are predicated on the basis that there has been an unacceptable proliferation in the number of powers of entry—some 600 such powers were created by the previous Government—and that in many cases there are insufficient safeguards attached to such powers. The Government share that analysis, which is why we have included the provisions in chapter 1 of part 3 of the Bill. The problem we have with the amendments is not their objective, but the blanket approach they adopt, even if it provides exemptions for a small number of specific bodies. We judge that such an approach would simply not work. One size, in this case, does not fit all, and the fact that the amendments include limited exemptions serves only to demonstrate that the approach taken, while it might appear superficially attractive, is incapable of withstanding close scrutiny.
In adopting the blanket approach of requiring in all cases the consent of the occupier or a warrant, the amendments fail to differentiate between powers of entry that support routine enforcement activity and those powers that protect the public from serious crime or from threats to life and limb.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
Does the Home Office have any statistics on the number of times that police officers have entered using the powers that they already have?
James Brokenshire
What I can point the right hon. Gentleman to is the published list of the various powers of entry that we analysed, as it indicates that the total number of powers for all agencies is between about 1,300 and 1,400. That is obviously quite a significant number, hence the reason why in our judgment the analysis, the review and the measures in the Bill are appropriate, given that the proliferation has expanded considerably over the past few years. As I indicated, about 100 new powers of entry were created under the previous Government, hence the reasons for the measures in the Bill and why we feel that the mechanism contemplated by the Lords amendments does not quite fit or work in terms of what is required.
There will undoubtedly be other circumstances, not contemplated by the Lords in their amendments, in which an exception to the general rule should apply. The key point is that without examining each power individually we simply have no way of knowing whether the amendments add necessary safeguards to the overbearing powers of a state official or stymie the operation of a vital tool designed to protect the public.
Given the acceptance of the need for exemptions, it might be tempting simply to add to the list of those officials who are exempt from the requirement to obtain a warrant or the consent of the occupier, but that approach is mistaken. In recognising the need for exemptions, we should not then rush to apply blanket exemptions. Naming specific officials, in the manner of the amendments, grants such persons free rein to operate without the need to consider a warrant or the occupier’s consent, regardless of the purpose for which the officials are seeking to gain entry. That is too broad an exemption.
Interestingly, in the other place the Opposition supported the amendments, but are they really arguing that trading standards officers should, in all circumstances, be able to exercise their powers of entry without the consent of the occupier, or on the authority of a warrant? We shall have to wait and see what the official Opposition say in response to those points, reflecting on the debate that took place in the other place.
Such an exemption might also give that person immunity from the review we intend to undertake, and that simply is not desirable. We want to review all powers of entry, including powers exercised by constables and by trading standards officers, but the presence of such people in the situation under discussion proves unequivocally that the amendments do not work.
It has been suggested that amendment 17 offers the necessary flexibility by authorising entry without consent or a warrant
“where the authority using the power can demonstrate that the aim of the use of the power would be frustrated if a warrant or agreement were sought”.
But such a provision would simply create confusion and uncertainty, as it would open up the exercise of a power of entry to legal challenge by an aggrieved occupier who might argue that the requirement to enter the premises in question would not have been frustrated if he had been asked to consent or if a warrant had been applied for.
I hope that my remarks make it clear that the Government are not simply inviting this House to disagree with the amendments and then leave it at that. As I have said, we support the principle that in the great majority of cases powers of entry in respect of domestic premises should indeed be exercised only with consent or on the authority of a warrant, but the way to achieve that is through the existing provisions in this part of the Bill. Clause 40, for example, allows us to add safeguards to powers of entry such as a requirement to obtain an occupier’s consent, providing reasonable notice, or getting a warrant before entering a person’s house. The new code of practice under clause 47 will govern the exercise of powers of entry and set out further safeguards to protect the rights of individuals and businesses.
The duty to review powers of entry under clause 42 will require Ministers to examine all the powers for which they are responsible and report to Parliament on the outcome of that review. The reports of these reviews will indicate whether individual powers are no longer justified and should therefore be repealed or retained but with the addition of better safeguards.
James Brokenshire
If the right hon. Gentleman refers to the Bill, he will see that the time period contemplated is two years, in order to allow proper consideration of all the relevant 1,300 to 1,400 powers of entry. This is not something that will simply lie in abeyance. The review of all powers must be completed within two years of Royal Assent, and we have said that we will report back to Parliament every six months to provide an update on progress, so there will be a steady updating process. I hope that that gives him comfort. I also highlight to him the Home Office gateway, which provides an ongoing check and balance in relation to new powers of entry, as well as the ability to review existing powers of entry that may be triggered as a consequence.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
What ultimate sanctions are in place in the event that the two-year review is not completed by any Department?
James Brokenshire
The review is a specific statutory requirement, and we are focused on ensuring that it is undertaken with all due expedition. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware of the requirements of the ministerial code and other requirements on Departments and Ministers to abide by the law. In addition, the ongoing six-monthly review that I mentioned will enable the House to maintain pressure on Departments to ensure that the provision is being properly adhered to and followed through with the intent and spirit of the Bill.
I point out to the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) that we have made significant progress through the Home Office gateway, which considers all applications by Departments for new powers of entry. To date, 19 applications to create or amend powers of entry have been considered, and we have added greater safeguards in every case. Every power of entry in respect of domestic dwellings that has been approved through the gateway process has included a requirement that entry is obtained either with the consent of the occupier or on the authority of a warrant. We have also taken the opportunity to scrap a number of powers.
I hope that that reassures right hon. and hon. Members that we are serious about ensuring that powers of entry are subject to appropriate safeguards and that we are committed to rolling back intrusive state powers and strengthening the privacy of home owners and businesses.
When taken together, the gateway process and the measures that I have outlined add up to a significant commitment to tackle what we have recognised to be a significant infringement of the rights of home owners. I have also made it clear that we cannot, in every case, demand that entry is effected only with the consent of the occupier or on the authority of a warrant. I put it to the House that our approach will ensure that the necessary safeguards are put in place to protect home owners, while providing greater legal certainty and ensuring that the police and others can act swiftly to protect the public. I therefore have no hesitation in inviting the House to disagree with the Lords amendments.
Mr Hanson
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this short debate.
Lords amendments 16 and 17 were supported in another place by Lord Selsdon. I welcome the debate about powers of entry and look forward to the Minister’s response to the points that I will put to him. When both I and Lord West were Ministers in the Home Office, the then Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), commissioned him to write a review of entry powers. The report that Lord West produced was overtaken by events with the general election, but I will refer to it with regard to the matters before the House.
The genesis of the Protection of Freedoms Bill lies in a document published in 2010 called “Modern Conservatism: Our Quality of Life Agenda”. I hope that the Minister will not think this too harsh, but I thought that, on balance, it was a rather tawdry document and I disagreed with almost every word of it. I do not say that very often or very lightly. The Lords amendments, which were passed with the support of the Opposition in another place, as the Minister said, would hold the Government to account for what they said they would do in that document. It stated that a Conservative Government, who I accept are upon us, would
“cut back the intrusive powers of entry into homes. Public bodies (other than the police and emergency services) will require a magistrates’ warrant, and approval for such a warrant will be restricted to tackling serious criminal offences or protecting public safety.”
This is an area of private grief between Government Back Benchers in another place and the Government. The Lords amendments would allow the Government to deliver on one of their major promises. That is something that the Government have failed to do on many occasions.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give the Government just a little leeway, after only two years, in untangling the giant pile of messy powers of entry that his Government left the coalition?
Mr Hanson
The hon. Gentleman has walked directly into my fist. “Modern Conservatism: Our Quality of Life Agenda” stated:
“When he became Prime Minister, Gordon Brown pledged to introduce a new liberty test to curtail powers of entry…He commissioned Lord West to undertake a review of entry powers. A final report by Lord West was supposed to be published by spring 2009, but has been continually delayed and kicked into the long grass.”
Lord Henley discussed that very point in another place, and the Minister referred to it today.
Clause 42, “Duty to review certain existing powers of entry”, places on Ministers of the Crown a duty to review relevant powers of entry within a relevant period, which happens to be two years. I may not be a great mathematician, but as I recall, we were criticised for kicking the matter into the long grass in 2009, yet now we cannot expect a final report until 2013 if the Bill receives Royal Assent. I ask the Minister and the hon. Gentleman whether that qualifies as kicking the matter into the long grass. I fear that it does. My noble Friend Lord West and my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath were criticised for kicking the matter into the long grass by delaying the review of powers of entry. However, clause 42 seems to provide for the very delay for which the Minister criticised us when he was the Opposition spokesman.
Steve Baker
I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his attempt, which we hear so often from the Opposition, to rewrite history and demonstrate Labour’s commitment to liberty. There are Government Members who would have been delighted if measures on powers of entry had been introduced by now, but I put it to him that the Government’s caution merely reflects a mature and sensible approach rather than the more gung-ho tone that some might take towards liberty.
Mr Hanson
It was mature and sensible reflection when we were accused of kicking the matter into the long grass in 2009-10, when I was a Minister in the Home Office. I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has planted his flag in the ground on this issue, because he is holding true to the Conservative manifesto commitment. I am genuinely surprised that there are not more Government Back Benchers wanting to hold the Government to account for why they are not fulfilling their manifesto commitment. Perhaps he will do that in due course.
My colleagues in another place supported the amendments, so that we could have this debate today and get the Minister’s comments on record. Concerns were raised, for example, about the term “trading standards officers”, which is not a recognised term. I would welcome him addressing those concerns.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) suggested, we have some concerns about the review provided for under clause 42. It places a duty on Secretaries of State to review the powers of entry for which they are responsible and report back to Parliament within two years of Royal Assent, following the necessary detailed analysis. As I said, we were accused of kicking the matter into the long grass, but the Government must consider 2013 shorter grass than 2011, which is when we would have had the review.
That aside, the purpose of the review under clause 42 will be to have each individual power of entry examined, to determine whether it is still required or whether it should be repealed, have safeguards added to it or be consolidated with similar powers to reduce the overall number. As we are already two years into the Government’s time in office and face the prospect of another two years before we hear back from the review, I do not believe I am far amiss in saying to the Minister and the hon. Member for Wycombe that the Government are potentially ducking the issue and leading the review into longer grass than we planned.
I would like some updates from the Minister on the points we have made. How long does he expect each Secretary of State to undertake the review? Does he expect the reviews from each Department to be completed before the end of the two-year period? Will he report back on the reviews en masse, when all Departments have completed them, or will he do so when individual Departments have completed reviews on their areas of responsibility?
Does the Minister expect to report back earlier than in two years’ time? As I have mentioned, what are the sanctions on Secretaries of State who do not meet the target? Will he report back on that? How does he expect Secretaries of State who have not met the target to report to the House? Can he guarantee that Parliament will have an opportunity to debate the review in full once it is published? Will he give some indication of how many legislative proposals on power of entry he expects to be reviewed and in due course repealed? According to the Conservative quality of life manifesto, there are 1,242 state powers of entry. Will the Minister indicate whether he has set targets for the outcome of the review? How many of those will be in place at the end of the review? Will he indicate how many of those powers of entry will in due course be on the bonfire that he promised in the manifesto?
The Conservative Government promised to cut back intrusive power of entry into homes. I am interested as to whether the Minister and his team will ultimately achieve that objective. We need clarity about the review. The Opposition will not support the amendments because we do not feel they are valuable, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response in due course.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
The Minister’s opening remarks gave a degree of reassurance on the Government’s position, but I feel that the starting point should be that the forces of law and order and of the state should not as a matter of routine have the right to enter people’s houses. One of the most important freedoms that we enjoy as British subjects is that if somebody comes into our house without our invitation, it must be because some important crime has been committed, or there is some emergency or another immediate reason. The problem with the Minister’s reassurance is that there is always a suspicion that Governments do what is convenient rather than what is right, and that the bureaucrat always feels that it is easier to enter somebody’s home or office than to go through a complex procedure—to get a warrant or to obtain a justice of the peace’s authorisation—to go into somebody’s property.
I remember listening to a brilliant speech by the present Attorney-General when the Conservative party was in opposition and when pulling back on such warrants was our formal policy. As the Minister has done today, my right hon. and learned Friend went through the vast numbers of powers that have built up—600 have been introduced in recent years and there are as many as 1,300 in total. How minor some of them are. If a council inspector believes that there is a flea infestation, he can enter somebody’s home to see whether fleas are hopping about. That was introduced in the 1930s, so it is not part of the recent accumulation of powers, but it reflects a century of belief in the big state and of allowing increasing powers to the state to take steps that are more convenient than necessary.
This House is always here to protect the rights and liberties of the individual against the over-mighty Executive. Although I believe the present Government are undoubtedly the greatest Government in the history of mankind, it is none the less in the nature of Governments to try to increase the powers they have, because it is always more convenient to do so. One can imagine the advice from officials to Ministers—“Minister, it will be easier and quicker and save money if we do this”—but that must be weighed by the House against the historic and ancient rights that we have enjoyed and that are so important to us.
We have enjoyed these freedoms to the great benefit of our nation and prosperity. The feeling of security that people have in their home—the feeling that they can go about their lawful business in their home without the forces of the state coming in to question what they are doing or how they are living—has allowed us to become one of the most prosperous countries in the world. Those ancient freedoms have underpinned all of that not just in recent years, but over many centuries. We have always been one of the freest countries in the world and one that has protected the property and rights of subjects against an over-mighty Crown more strongly than other nations have been willing to do.
Although I have received—I think—sufficient reassurance from the Minister to support the amendments, I hope that the Government will carry out the review with the greatest urgency. Many people would have been more sympathetic to the Government’s view if, instead of just a rejecting motion, they had tabled an amendment with a bit more detail on the time scale, or perhaps a requirement that if the review is not finished in two years, any power that has not been reviewed must fall or be the subject of a warrant or the agreement of the person whose property is to be invaded.
I will end my brief remarks by reminding the House of the words of Pitt the Elder—known as the Great Commoner, that proud upholder of liberties in the 18th century. What he said should ring true today for all subjects of Her Majesty:
“The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail, its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter, the rain may enter—but the King of England cannot enter”.
That is a principle that we ought to uphold and fight for. The Government should push ahead as fast as possible to ensure that these 1,300 powers are cut right back purely to those that are essential in the fight to maintain law and order or to put out fires.
Keith Vaz
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who eloquently reminds us that an Englishman’s home is indeed his castle and that it is vital that it be protected from an overactive state. I have great sympathy with what he said.
I support what the Government are doing in the review. As we heard from my right hon. Friend the shadow Policing Minister, that was the position of the last Government, even though, as we were reminded, the number of powers has been increased—by 600, the Minister said—in the past 13 years. I am sure that if he consults the relevant Hansard reports, he will see that I voted for most, if not all, of the additions. Had it not been for the general election, the noble Lord West would have completed his review. I too would like the review to be completed within the two years. It is easy for parliamentarians to set deadlines that they perhaps know cannot be met and put further burdens on Ministers, but it would be helpful if the review could be conducted within that period.
I am not sure by what mechanisms the review will be conducted. Will it be conducted by a joint committee of Ministers and will it include officials of various Departments? Clearly the Home Office will take the lead, but is there merit in commissioning—to use a word that will become of great interest to people—outside Government and allowing academics or practitioners to be involved in the process, so that it is not just Home Office officials but those who deal daily with the conduct of these matters? I would be interested to know how that will take place. It might help to speed up the review if it is taken out of Government and given to someone else to look at.
My second question relates to the update that the Minister is proposing the Government give Parliament. Will that be an oral statement by the Home Secretary or a written statement, and will it be an amalgamation of what individual Ministers have said or just one statement on behalf of the whole Government?
Finally, it would be helpful to know whether the Government intend not to initiate any new legislation that might affect this area until the review is over and has been published. Is it the Government’s position that, because an emergency or some unpredictable occurrence might require the use of emergency powers, we might have to enter this territory—that is, we simply cannot stop it happening—and increase the number of police powers or other powers; or is it their intention to say, “Let us pause and draw a line in the sand,” as the hon. Member for North East Somerset said, and to consider what has been done in the past, along with what they plan to do in future, before passing any legislation?
Apart from those three points, I support what the Government are doing, and I think the review will be very helpful indeed.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
I, too, support the general thrust of Lords amendments 16 to 18, but I completely understand the Minister’s concerns about the effect they would have on the legislation.
I very much agree with my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) on the need for some sort of restatement of our fundamental liberty with regard to private property, which is one of the underpinning foundations of English law. To that end, my addition to the points made by the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) and my hon. Friend is to ask whether we might have a restatement of that general principle. The amendment gives a negative statement about those powers that may not be used except in certain circumstances. I wonder whether, in their review, the Government might restate the general principle of the sanctity of property and of private property, so that that should be the bar by which all future incursions against private property will be judged, and so that exactly that kind of guard might be imposed on future Governments—a point to which my hon. Friend rightly alluded.
I am very much reassured by my hon. Friend the Minister’s assurance that the matter will be considered within the time scale promised. On previous points where further work by the Government was needed, he has given an assurance and delivered on it exactly as he said he would. I have no doubt at all that he will do so in this case, and his comments so far give me great confidence.
Steve Baker
When I look at Lords amendments 16 to 18, my instinct is certainly to support them, but after many, many hours in Committee with my hon. Friend the Minister, I know that he has a thoroughgoing commitment to progress towards liberty, so I assure him of my future support for simplifying powers of entry. As I have said previously to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who is in her place, when the knock comes on the door, householders should be able to know whether the person knocking has a right to enter, or whether they are permitted to refuse entry. However, having sat through both the Public Bill Committee’s evidence sessions and heard contributions from Opposition Members, I know that the Minister has met the forces of reaction. I encourage him not to succumb to reactionary opposition or to the notion that certain powers should be elevated over liberty in the interests of security or expediency. I am confident that he will be steadfast in the cause of liberty, so I will support the Government.
James Brokenshire
I rise to respond briefly to a number of the points raised. Let me assure my hon. Friends the Members for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) and for Wycombe (Steve Baker) of this Government’s commitment and resolve to roll back the arms of the state that may seek to intrude into private life.
The measures before the House this afternoon are important. They underpin our focus on ensuring that powers of entry are proportionate, appropriate and respect the right to be able to enjoy one’s home without undue interference. The House will also recognise, however, that there are certain circumstances in which such intervention might be appropriate—to protect health, to prevent harm or to ensure that criminals are legitimately brought to justice. That is why we are undertaking the review that I have outlined this afternoon.
I assure the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) that I understand his desire to get on with this. We have said that we will report back to the House on a six-monthly basis, and I anticipate that that will involve a joint report on behalf of all the relevant parts of the Government Departments undertaking the review, to provide an update on the progress and the steps that are being taken. We intend the review to be Home Office-led and it will be undertaken in large measure by officials, but they will be responsible to Ministers, and I assure the House that Ministers will be driving the process forward, recognising the House’s strong feelings about the importance of liberty.
It was a bit rich of the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) to suggest that we were trying to kick this matter into the long grass and to defer or delay it. On the contrary, we are legislating through the Bill, we are taking action and we are setting out a clear process to roll back powers of entry, which grew enormously under the last Government. The fact that 600 new powers of entry were created during their period in office underlines the fact that due regard was not given to the implications of those measures. I am proud that this Government are introducing a clear mechanism to review the impact of powers of entry and the necessity of their remaining on the statute book or being made subject to further safeguards. The measures in the Bill will allow that to be done.
I very much welcome the support that has been expressed by right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House this afternoon. I know that the right hon. Member for Delyn will want to ask what target we have set, but I hope he has realised that we are not a Government who arbitrarily set targets. We will look at this matter in a measured, considered way and decide what is in the best interests of liberty and the protection of freedoms in relation to safety and security, as well as of the freedom from the intrusion of an overbearing state.
James Brokenshire
I will give way, having made a challenge to the shadow Policing Minister.
Mr Hanson
I sense that the Minister is about to finish his speech. Before he does so, will he try to answer the question that I put to him earlier? In the event of a Secretary of State not meeting the duty set out in clause 42, what sanctions would be available to address their failure to meet that target?
James Brokenshire
I think I have already answered the right hon. Gentleman’s questions fairly and squarely in terms of the statutory requirement on which I hope the House will legislate. I hope that that measure will go on to the statute book. The Bill represents a significant step forward—one that the previous Government failed to take during the 13 years in which they were creating 600 additional powers of entry. I note that he is seeking to push and challenge us on this, but I must point out that the Bill represents a significant step forward. Ministers will be bound by the provisions, and they will take the new responsibility extremely seriously.
I hope that the House is minded to disagree with the Lords in their amendments this afternoon. That in no way implies a lack of commitment, resolve or focus on the Government’s part to ensure that powers of entry are properly examined and, as appropriate, scaled back to ensure that they properly protect without intruding, and that they are not retained on the statute book if they are not necessary.
Lords amendment 16 disagreed to.
Lords amendments 17 and 18 disagreed to.
A New Clause
Stalking
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move amendment (b) to Lords amendment 51.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
With this, it will be convenient to discuss amendments (c), (d), (e), (f) and Government amendments (g), (h), (i), (j), and (k) thereto.
Lords amendment 52, and amendment (a) thereto.
Lords amendments 59 and 68
Lords amendment 133 and Government amendments (a) to (c) thereto.
Stella Creasy
The need for legislation to create a distinctive offence of stalking has been clear for some time. I therefore start the debate by welcoming the Government’s willingness to respond to these calls for such legislation. Our amendments reflect the need to ensure that this opportunity for progress is not missed and that the evolution of these proposals continues so that they can truly meet the needs of those we wish to protect.
To put this case, I want to set out why we consider that the legislation as currently proposed is limited in its ability to deliver this protection, and what we learn from that in scrutinising the Government’s proposals that are on the table. We all now know that the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 has been unable to offer the protection from stalking required for its victims. It is estimated that there are currently 120,000 cases of stalking every year, but fewer than 4,500 were convicted of harassment in 2009; of those, only 565 were jailed.
The current legislation is not able to cope with stalking because these behaviours cannot be meaningfully defined by specific forms of contact. Rather, this is an offence about the impact of conduct or patterns of behaviour by those individuals who fixate on others and seek to cause distress, fear or alarm. The current legislation offers only the same tools that we have at present to deal with disputes between neighbours—and it has struggled to cope as a result.
The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 created two criminal offences of harassment and putting people in fear of violence, as well as providing for restraining orders, which are more well known, where a breach, in theory, can lead to an arrestable offence. We now know, however, that victims of stalking talk repeatedly about the frustrations caused by the police being required to see patterns of behaviour, examples of a breach or evidence that someone has repeatedly damaged property or acted in a certain way or created a fear of violence. Others have talked about the importance of training the police, magistrates and the Crown Prosecution Service to help them understand the range of acts that fall under stalking—including, especially, cyber-stalking. That is because it is a summary offence of harassment, and many felt that the police did not go far enough and did not allocate appropriate resources to investigating these cases, or frankly, that it was seen as simply not serious enough to warrant the effort. I shall return to the question of seriousness in a few moments.
It is little wonder that the recent inquiry into stalking found that 72% of victims were unhappy with the response they received from the criminal justice system, with the majority stating they had experienced stalking for over 18 months or more and through multiple forms of contact; yet only 47% said that their perpetrator was even charged. As Tracey Morgan, a key member of the inquiry panel into stalking has said:
“stalking is where domestic violence was 30 years ago. It’s seen as a joke; a celebrity problem. Victims are told they should be flattered by the attention”—
but we all know of the reality. We have heard the stories of people like Tracey whose lives were torn apart by a person who fixated upon them. We have heard of the ex-partners who torment men and women online and offline; we have heard of women such as Clare Bernal who was brutally murdered by her former boyfriend, despite warnings about his behaviour.
We know from other jurisdictions how having a specific offence of stalking can help to address these concerns. In the 10 years prior to the introduction of the offence of stalking in Scotland, Strathclyde police reported a total of 70 stalking-related prosecutions. In the first six months after legislation providing for a specific offence was enacted, there were 140 prosecutions in Strathclyde alone, and it is estimated that there will be between 500 and 600 in Scotland as a whole by the end of the year.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
The hon. Lady is making a powerful point about Scotland. Scotland moved straight from “breach of the peace” legislation to legislation on stalking, so the comparison is quite dramatic. We in England and Wales are in a slightly better position, but the comparison is nevertheless invidious, which is why the proposed change in the law is so essential and welcome.
Stella Creasy
In order to establish whether the present proposals will deal with our concerns adequately, it is worth considering what has happened in Scotland as a result of the legislation providing for a specific offence, and also making comparisons with what is offered by the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.
On behalf of the House, let me thank those who have been campaigning on these issues, and who have led action both in the House and outside. Working with Protection against Stalking and the National Association of Probation Officers, the all-party inquiry into stalking— in which I know the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) participated—has tirelessly and persistently made the case for new legislation. I pay tribute to both those organisations, and to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), who is present, for all their work on the inquiry.
Although she was not able to be here today, I think that the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), deserves credit for putting the case for the legislation in September last year. She also stressed the need for stronger sentencing and police training to improve responses.
Finally, I think that we must all pay particular tribute to Baroness Royall, who, back in November, began tabling amendments to the Bill in the other place to introduce this law in some form and thus to force action on the issue. We can see that that tactic has worked. Ministers initially refused to accept the case, saying that the current legislation covered criminal behaviour of this kind, but their view has now changed, and that change is welcome. I note that Lord Henley himself acknowledged the work of Lady Royall in raising the issue.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an excellent case. There has been a good deal of publicity and discussion on stalking over the last six or 12 months. Has my hon. Friend noticed any improvement in the attitude of police forces towards people who report stalking, given that such people have received no response in the past?
Stella Creasy
When I discussed the proposals with the police, they were anxious to ensure that we used this opportunity to get the proposals right. I welcomed their acknowledgment of concern about the way in which the legislation had been used to deal with the problems, and about the lack of training in what stalking might involve.
As a result of this pressure, we stand here today to debate not whether proposals are needed, but the strength of the proposals that are on the table. We can see how the proposals are evolving as the Government respond to people who have been campaigning. The new amendments—as opposed to the proposals that were put to the other place last week—reflect further movement in the right direction, given the Government’s initial response to Baroness Royall’s proposals.
It is in the spirit of ensuring that the Bill is meaningful and effective that Labour Members have tabled further amendments today. Having championed the need for legislation, we wish to ensure that this opportunity is not wasted. When we test the Lords amendment against the realities of the crime that we are discussing, and indeed the issues raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), we still see difficulties. In particular, we fear that the amendment presents the appearance of progress while failing to deliver through its confusing demarcation between section 2A and section 4A offences. We also believe that it does not give the criminal justice system the full confidence that it needs to be able to address this crime in its many manifestations, whether through investigation, prosecution or conviction.
Our amendments (a) and (b) would ensure that the Bill would be what I call future-proof. When the Protection from Harassment legislation was enacted in 1997, Google did not exist. One of the compelling examples of the behaviour of the persecutor of Claire Waxman was the fact that he had searched for her name 40,000 times in a single year. The amendment reflects the need not only to train all who work in the criminal justice system to recognise that stalking can manifest itself in many ways, but to ensure that the legislation can keep pace with the innovation. As we have heard, many victims experience multiple forms of harassment, and do so many times before it is reported. These amendments would enable the Secretary of State to respond to the creativity of perpetrators and ensure that all those charged with protecting the public from these crimes are able to act. The inclusion of “inter alia” and the ability to include additional clarification will give confidence to the Crown Prosecution Service, the police and the magistrates courts that these kinds of conduct could in future be relevant to this offence.
If the Government will not accept the amendments, they must set out now, on the record, how they propose to ensure that the criminal justice system is able fully to comprehend and respond to the way in which fixations occur, both online and offline.
Mr Buckland
I am listening with great care to the hon. Lady’s argument about the use of the phrase “inter alia”. There may be a bit of an irony in using legal Latin to anticipate developments in respect of Google and Twitter, but I do not criticise her for that. The Lords amendment lists
“examples of acts or omissions”.
That is therefore a non-exhaustive list, so the problem the hon. Lady rightly identifies as possibly occurring cannot occur on the basis of any reasonable interpretation of the Lords amendment as it currently stands.
Stella Creasy
This is a point of genuine disagreement, because there is concern that what should be seen as a non-exhaustive list of behaviours and conducts for the offence of stalking will instead be seen as a list of the only such behaviours and conducts. We are trying to ensure both that training is given to all sectors of the criminal justice system and that there is clarification about the wide range of perpetrator behaviours that can be included. I gave the example of Google in order to argue that if the idea of cyber-stalking had been considered when the protection from harassment law was introduced in 1997, legislators might have recognised the need to address it. Given that we so rarely get an opportunity to draft legislation, it is important that we make any new laws as robust as possible, such as by ensuring that the Secretary of State can intervene. We believe that our proposal would offer an opportunity to address any concerns that might arise. Law makers might say, “This is a list of stalking behaviours and anything else isn’t stalking.” If the Government are not prepared to accept the amendment, they must explicitly state how they will ensure that this list does not become the only list of examples, rather than a starting point for our law makers.
Our amendments to Lords Amendment 51 go to the heart of the inconsistencies in the proposals. We challenge the retention of a section 2A offence of stalking and the creation of a section 4A offence of stalking, differentiated by the concept of seriousness. We welcome the fact that, in response to Baroness Royall, the Government’s position has moved from that of the amendments tabled in the Lords, which set out stalking as purely involving a fear of violence. The new provisions go much further towards recognising the need to be able to act against perpetrators without waiting for physical harm as well as the different ways in which this crime impacts upon victims, and that is certainly welcome. However, the strengthening of section 4A does not undermine the inconsistency created by the retention of a section 2A offence for stalking.
Under Government amendments (i), (j) and (k), section 4A will apply when someone has suffered
“serious alarm or distress which has a substantial adverse effect on”
their
“usual day-to-day activities”.
Yet section 2A sets out a less well-defined offence of stalking that would secure a lower level tariff. That offence would be triable only in a magistrates court, with a fine or maximum penalty of just six months’ imprisonment. We believe that such a distinction between different offences and courses of action does not stand scrutiny. Specifically, it is unclear from the evidence of this crime what kinds of cases would fall under section 2A rather than section 4A. In respect of the wording of the new amendments, it appears that a distinction would be based on proving that someone has suffered a “serious” form of distress. Therefore, the Government must set out how that could be proved—for example, whether it would be similar to psychiatric injury, where we need a psychiatrist to say there has been a serious impact on the central nervous system. This also raises the prospect of medical records having to be disclosed, potentially giving more information to the stalker at court and also creating a higher burden to prove, so the CPS would again be less likely to charge under Section 4 and default to Section 2A, with the resulting lesser options for punishment.
We as parliamentarians should reflect upon whether we would ask the victims to have their lives altered as a marker of such seriousness. The survey commissioned by the university of Leicester for the Network for Surviving Stalking found that one third of victims of stalking said that they had lost their job or relationship or had been forced to move because of the stalking. Some 92% reported physical effects and 98% reported emotional effects, ranging from anxiety, sleep disturbances, anger and distrust to depression, self-harm and post-traumatic stress disorder. Half of all the victims had changed their telephone number; half of them had given up social activities; half of them had seen their performance at work affected; and a third of them had relocated. If the Home Secretary wishes to retain these divisions, she must tell us whether it is justifiable to ask victims to prove that their lives have been changed in such a serious way before we can offer them real protection. Does she not see the risk that the police could apply this “seriousness” test in choosing whether to investigate and secure a section 2A or section 4A offence, leaving victims in the horrific position of having to prove that their lives have been damaged in these ways in order to secure effective action against the perpetrators?
As many experts have pointed out, this distinction risks retaining one of the problems with the existing legislation: it is extremely unusual for someone to be found guilty under section 4 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, with just 170 of the 786 people found guilty being given a custodial sentence. Some 53,000 harassment cases were recorded by the police in 2009-10, but in only 23 was a custodial sentence of more than 12 months given for breaching a restraining order and in just 27 was such a sentence given for putting someone in fear of violence. Under the current legislation, most perpetrators receive restraining orders on multiple occasions and yet still receive fines and non-custodial sentences. Both the National Association of Probation Officers and Protection Against Stalking state that they believe that
“similar outcomes will come from an analysis of court proceedings under 2A.”
Even if a case can be made for the retention of a “lesser” offence of stalking, the division also limits the ability of the Crown Prosecution Service to respond to cases effectively by setting out two separate paths for the same crime. As NAPO and PAS have pointed out, allowing the offence to be triable either way would have two advantages. First, if evidence came out during a magistrates court trial indicating that the matter was more serious than first thought and may warrant a sentence of more than six months, the case could be sent to the Crown court for sentence. Secondly, many stalkers who do not threaten violence and who may be tried under section 2A for less serious matters are, nevertheless, highly persistent. Without the power to refer to a Crown court, such people could appear persistently in magistrates courts, being liable only for six months’ imprisonment and automatically released at three months —if they were tagged, they would come out after one month and continue their behaviour.
The amendments tabled by the Government maintain the risk that offences will not be adequately addressed, as at present, because they ask the CPS to choose between “lower-level” offences of stalking, as yet undefined, and those considered “more serious”. The challenge for all involved in addressing this offence will be to make such a distinction in any meaningful way as to merit it.
In contrast, our proposed amendments to Lords amendment 51 offer the opportunity to correct this situation so that confusion is no bar to ensuring that those who commit these crimes are given appropriate sentences. Our amendment (d) to Lords amendment 51 proposes a simple definition of stalking that could clarify the difference between “harassment” and “stalking” between neighbours who behave in unacceptable ways towards each other and the person who fixates on a former partner or someone they have never met but serves to cause them distress.
Our amendment (c ) to Lords amendment 51 would help to ensure that it is open to the criminal justice system to respond to these crimes by making them triable either way, thus introducing the possibility, alongside the lesser sentences the Government are offering under section 2A, of a sentence of up to five years. If the Government will not accept the amendments, they need to set out precisely what constitutes a “lesser” crime of stalking and how it would be distinctive from the crimes they expect to be prosecuted under section 4A. In particular, I ask the Home Secretary to put on the record clear examples of the different criteria they expect to be applied to justify this division and to ensure that criminal justice agencies are able to understand the intent in their proposals.
Finally, our amendment (a) to Lords amendment 52 deals with how these crimes are investigated and with the importance of ensuring that the police are able to act. It would restore a power of entry to the properties of those arrested for stalking without a warrant to ensure that evidence cannot be destroyed. The power previously existed for cases of harassment, but was removed as an unintended consequence of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, and many of us believe that this omission requires attention. Again, I highlight to Ministers the risks they are taking by creating two stalking offences, where one is indictable and the other is only a summary offence. Under their proposals, the police can enter a property to search only if the offence is indictable. The confusion between sections 2A and 4A could mean that officers hesitate in using this power to investigate matters relating to these crimes for fear of not finding enough evidence to meet the “seriousness” test. Seeking this power, and thus the possibility of investigation, would help to ensure that the police would not flinch out of confusion; those committing offences that the Government believe would fall into section 4A could be investigated without the police thinking twice.
Without this power, there is a very real danger of evidence being destroyed as others act to protect those arrested for this offence. The fact that it could take hours to secure a warrant allows that possibility—that time is valuable. Indeed, as we have seen with recent attempts to destroy evidence relevant to the prosecution of those involved in phone hacking, such behaviour is not theoretical. The fact that the police are currently able to search the property of a shoplifter but not to access the property of someone who has been arrested for stalking to seek further evidence—perhaps to see the shrine they have created or computer information on social networks—further reflects the difficulties our police will have with the measures as they stand in ensuring that they effectively protect victims.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I shall be asking the House to agree with Lords amendment 51. I am pleased and proud to be standing here supporting and speaking to amendments relating to the introduction of new criminal offences for stalking. Some years ago, I secured an Adjournment debate in the House about the tragic case of Rana Faruqui, the daughter of my constituent Carol Faruqui. Rana was stalked for some time. Sadly, the police did not pay attention to the instances of stalking that she reported to them and, as a result, Rana was ferociously murdered by the individual who had been stalking her. Since that case came to my attention, I have personally believed that we need to do more to take the issue of stalking seriously, so I am glad that we are debating this issue.
It is fair to say that when the then Government introduced the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, they believed that it would cover stalking and be adequate but we have seen over the years that it has not been taken as seriously as Members across the House would wish. Stalking is an appalling crime, both in itself and in the distress that it can cause an individual. It can also lead to physical violence and has, sadly, led to the death of the individual being stalked in cases such as that of Rana Faruqui. When I have spoken to stalking victims, they have said that some police officers are very sensitive to the issue of stalking and handle it very well and appropriately—dealing with it properly—but, sadly, others do not see the seriousness of the offence in the way that we would wish them to.
Jeremy Corbyn
The Home Secretary will have heard my intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy). In the Home Secretary’s discussions with the police, have they begun to understand the sensitivity of stalking and that it is very difficult for someone to report it? It is at that interface at the police station that things can all go terribly wrong or well depending on the training and sensitivity of the officers concerned. Is the Association of Chief Police Officers aware of that and has she been able to discuss the matter with ACPO?
Mrs May
I have had some opportunity to discuss this issue with ACPO and those representing victims of stalking. Their comments are similar to what victims of domestic violence say to me. If an officer has been trained specifically in the identification of stalking and dealing with a stalking victim, then they, like an officer who has been specifically trained to deal with a domestic violence victim, understand the context and the issues that the victim is facing. Officers who have not had that separate training might not understand these issues. There are certainly matters that need to be addressed in terms of how the police look at stalking. I hope that the creation of stalking offences will be part of the process of ensuring that all officers recognise the importance of the issue.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
I welcome the amendment, but does the Secretary of State agree that the public’s severe lack of confidence in the criminal justice system’s ability to deal with stalking is a major problem, and that legislation, while welcome, is not the whole solution? We also need training for officers; that is the only way that we will improve officers’ reactions when victims of stalking come forward, increase public confidence, and increase earlier reporting of stalking.
Mrs May
My hon. Friend makes a valid and important point. As I said in response to the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), I hope that the creation of the legislation and the offences will, in itself, send out a message, but of course that has to be backed up by training. I also hope that we can ensure that the public generally recognise the importance and significance of stalking as an offence, and the distress and problems that it causes to an individual who is being stalked. I remember holding a discussion on the subject with a number of people, and a victim of stalking made the point to me that when she first came forward to say that she was a victim, someone she knew said to her, “Oh, aren’t you lucky?” Nothing could be further from the truth, and we need to change that attitude.
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
That is an important point. We have seen how long it has taken the police to treat domestic violence as seriously as it should be treated. The Home Secretary’s comments show that victims are sometimes told that it is nice to receive that sort of attention. There is also the issue of the police not treating stalking seriously; it is only in very serious cases, where death may result, that we address stalking as the important issue that it is.
Mrs May
Of course, what we want is for the issue to be addressed properly earlier; we want victims to have the confidence to come forward, knowing that what they say will be taken seriously, so that the matter can be dealt with properly before it gets to the point of physical violence, or indeed, as the hon. Gentleman says, before the death of the individual who is being stalked.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
How does the Home Secretary think that the public can ensure that the issue is on the agenda for the police and crime commissioners, who are to be elected in November?
Mrs May
From time to time, my right hon. Friend and others raise issues relating to ensuring that matters are on the police and crime commissioners’ agendas. Bodies representing victims of stalking will, I am sure, do all that they can to ensure that candidates for the post of police and crime commissioner are well aware of the issue and therefore take it into account when looking at policing in their force area.
This is, of course, the first opportunity that the House has had to discuss the issue in the context of the Bill, so I want to take a moment to set out the background to the Lords amendments. Last year, the Government consulted on whether the law needed changing to introduce a new offence of stalking. The consultation closed in February, and the majority of respondents said that a new specific offence was needed. Separately from the Government’s consultation, an independent inquiry, chaired by the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), also concluded that the law needed strengthening better to respond to the concerns of victims of stalking. I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman and his inquiry team for all that they have done to raise the importance of the issue; he has done that regularly in the House, too. I also commend the hard work done by the National Association of Probation Officers and Protection Against Stalking, who have, entirely rightly, been championing victims’ rights for some years. I hope that they have seen that the Government have responded to that.
Following the Government’s consultation and the independent inquiry, we amended the Bill in the other place to provide for two new free-standing offences—stalking, and stalking involving fear of violence—which will sit alongside the existing harassment offences in the Protection from Harassment Act 1997. The new offence of stalking in proposed new section 2A of the 1997 Act will be tried in the magistrates court, with a maximum penalty of six months’ imprisonment, a fine of up to £5,000, or both. The new offence of stalking involving fear of violence in proposed new section 4A will be triable either way—in the magistrates court or the Crown court. If tried in the Crown court, it will have a penalty of up to five years’ imprisonment, an unlimited fine, or both.
The changes that we have introduced also give the police a new power of entry for the new section 2A offence of stalking. The more serious either-way offence of stalking involving fear of violence automatically attracts a power of entry. It was clear from our consultation discussions that the police want the power to search for equipment used by stalkers so that they can gather the evidence necessary to secure convictions and prevent stalking behaviour from escalating. We have listened and responded.
There has been widespread support for these changes. Last week I received a letter from a victim of stalking, who said:
“The action your government has taken will change the lives of thousands of people for the better—and save many. Thank you for treating this crime with the seriousness it deserves.”
Our amendments mean that for the first time, we will have specific offences of stalking. However, I know there have been suggestions that we should also recognise the emotional suffering that victims of stalking experience. That is why we tabled Government amendments (g) to (k) to Lords amendment 51 and Government amendments (a) to (c) to Lords amendment 133. Those amendments will widen the section 4A offence to incorporate behaviour that causes the victim serious alarm or distress that has a substantial effect on his or her day-to-day life.
This change will mean that when a stalker causes their victim, for example, to take alternative routes to and from work, when the victim is afraid to leave the house or when they have to ask their friends or family to pick up their children from school because they are afraid of running into their stalker, this could count as behaviour that attracts the more serious section 4A offence and therefore, on conviction on indictment, a maximum five-year sentence. The message could not be clearer—anyone who ruins someone’s life with their stalking should expect to be severely punished. I know that NAPO and Protection Against Stalking have been involved in the development of these changes and I am grateful to them for their contribution.
Let me take some time to deal with the amendments in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, which are virtually identical to the ones that were tabled in another place. Amendment (b) to Lords amendment 51 relates to new section 2A(3) of the 1997 Act which sets out a list of examples of stalking behaviours. I say to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), who introduced the debate, that “examples” is the key word here. That is what they are intended to be—examples of stalking behaviours.
Amendment (b) seeks to add a catch-all to this indicative list of behaviours and would allow the Secretary of State to add behaviours to the list of examples. As I said, the list is intended to be illustrative only; it is not intended to set out all the types of stalking behaviour that might be exhibited. We want to ensure that it is wide enough to capture any behaviour, including stalking conduct, that has not yet been developed. The hon. Lady is right. It may well be that there are means of stalking that we cannot yet think of which will develop over time. It is right that we have within the legislation the ability to take account of those, should they develop.
The reason I think it is important not to create a catch-all provision or take a power to expand the list, but to set it as a list of examples, is that we have deliberately made it non-exhaustive. As soon as one tries to set everything down in the legislation, one risks the opportunity for individuals to find ways round the definition that has been set down in the legislation. What is important here is that the Bill says, “These are the sorts of behaviour that come into the category of stalking,” but if we try to be too rigid in setting it out, I fear that that could have a negative rather than a positive effect.
Stella Creasy
Given our shared concern about the inventiveness of perpetrators, will the Home Secretary undertake to review annually the range of behaviours that will be identified through this process so that we can understand whether it is being used as a list of examples or solely as a list of what constitutes stalking?
Mrs May
I am happy to tell the hon. Lady that we will indeed keep the legislation under review. The last thing we want to do is to find that the legislation is being misinterpreted. The reason it is set out in the terms, “The following are examples,” is precisely to send a message to people that that is all they are. There will be other activities that come under the definition of stalking for the purposes of this criminal offence, but we are not putting that exhaustive list in the Bill.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I agree with my right hon. Friend that well-trained police officers will be able to identify exactly what stalking is. From their experience and training, they will be able to say, “That is an example of stalking and we should do something about it,” and I hope the legislation will allow that to happen.
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for supporting our approach. It is important that a degree of discretion is available to police officers so that they can identify behaviour that is not listed but would come under the definition of stalking.
A number of the comments made by the hon. Member for Walthamstow related to the creation of two offences—the lower level and higher level offences—and I think that there is a need to differentiate between the two. The practice of having two such offences is followed in a number of other areas in the criminal justice system, which I think is important, but we will be developing training—a number of hon. Members have mentioned this—for agencies in the criminal justice system in the coming months to ensure that they are aware of the nature of the legislation being introduced, such as the point about the list being one of examples only.
Stella Creasy
In which case, will the Home Secretary set out clearly and explicitly what she considers to be a stalking offence that would come under section 2A, rather than section 4A, because I think that there is genuine concern that having two offences but not defining the difference between them will cause problems for the police at a local level?
Mrs May
It is normal practice when introducing offences to have a lower level and a higher level offence, and training for the criminal justice system agencies will look at identifying the sort of behaviour that might come under one or the other. Again, in these circumstances it is always difficult, and I think inappropriate, to try to state absolutely what behaviour would come under one offence and what behaviour would come under another, because the context of behaviour might be significant; behaviour that might be considered lower level in one context might be considered higher level in another. It is important that we do not try to set out absolute definitions and that discretion is available to the police in interpreting the offences and looking at the context in which they are committed. I know that the hon. Lady’s view is different from mine, but the point is similar to the previous one: the more we try to define the offence in legislation or on the Floor of the House, the less we can offer the discretion and flexibility that might be necessary to an individual officer or the Crown Prosecution Service to deal with such cases. I fear that we might end up in a situation that is not so good if the terminology we use is too rigid.
The hon. Member for Walthamstow also tabled amendment (c) to Lords amendment 51, which would make the lower-level section 2A offence triable either way. It is currently a summary-only offence, reflecting the fact that it is a lower level offence and should be properly tried in the magistrates court. More serious behaviour should be captured by the higher level section 4A offence of stalking involving fear of violence. Amendments (d) to (f) seek to capture the emotional distress suffered by victims of stalking. I have already set out how we intend to address this point, and our approach is supported by NAPO and Protection Against Stalking. She referred to the need for clarity in the criminal justice system, yet her proposals attempt to blur the distinction between the two offences and, I think, would lead to less clarity rather than more.
The Opposition’s other amendment in this group, amendment (a) to Lords amendment 52, would remove the requirement to obtain a warrant before searching a potential stalker’s property or possessions under the new section 2A offence. As the offence is a summary-only offence, which is by definition a lower level offence, I think that requiring a warrant for a search represents an appropriate balance between protecting the vulnerable in society from stalkers and respecting the rights of those who are innocent until proven guilty. The higher level offence, as I said earlier, automatically allows the power of entry, which is appropriate, given that it is a more serious offence. For those reasons, I cannot accept the Opposition’s amendments.
Mr Buckland
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for her clear exposition of the position. May I seek some clarification on the position regarding persistent offenders, who quite properly should be dealt with in the Crown court? Will guidelines be issued to prosecutors to deal with the particular issue of persistent offenders—in essence to ensure that they are dealt with by the either-way mechanism and can then be sent to the Crown court either for trial or for sentencing?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that issue. The persistency of an offence is a factor that should be taken into account when looking at the seriousness of it. Perhaps I can attempt to give the hon. Member for Walthamstow some indication on these matters. My hon. Friend raises the issue of someone persistently undertaking the offence of stalking, and we hope to reach a situation in which early examples, or early behaviour, of stalking can be identified, captured and therefore dealt with through the lower level offence before it moves on to stalking behaviour—the more serious offence that is set out in proposed section 4A.
We do take stalking very seriously, however, and we are determined to do all we can to stamp it out. We have created the two new offences, explicitly putting stalking on the statute book for the first time; we are giving the police the powers of entry that they need to disrupt stalkers at an early stage; and we have responded to the concerns of victims and of victims’ organisations by making it clear that behaviour which ruins lives will be properly punished. I think that those changes will make a real difference to the lives of victims, and I commend the Lords amendments and the Government’s amendments to those amendments to the House.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
It is a pleasure to follow the Home Secretary and the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) in what is a very interesting debate.
Some 10 months ago I set up an all-party committee covering both Houses, including Members from all parties and none, by which I mean it included Cross Benchers from the other place as well. The hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) played a very active part in the committee’s deliberations and is to be commended on the hard work that he put in.
We looked at the whole issue of a stand-alone offence of stalking, something that I have long believed to be a necessary tool in the criminal justice armoury. We were helped immensely by Laura Richards of Protection Against Stalking and by Harry Fletcher of the National Association of Probation Officers, to whom we as a committee are very grateful. The researcher Delyth Jewell also did a sterling piece of work in clerking the committee.
We took evidence from July last year, and we are indebted to those who came and gave of their time to provide evidence to us. I think in particular of the victims and the victims’ families. It took a great deal of bravery to relate some of their accounts. Many were harrowing, almost beyond belief and ended, as the Home Secretary said of her constituent, in death. They were awful situations, so we are indebted to those individuals, because they came before the committee and their evidence has convinced us all that this is an urgent matter that needs to be put right.
We took evidence from lawyers, who said that there was a lacuna in the current law. I was a Member in 1997 when the Protection from Harassment Act became law, and we thought it a fairly decent piece of legislation. Indeed, by and large it has been and has dealt with a great range of offences, but on the particular offence of stalking in large parts it has not fit the bill. The lawyers told us that they, too, thought we needed to consider a separate offence of stalking.
I agree with the Home Secretary that some police officers are very good at pursuing stalking through the provisions in the 1997 Act, but I am afraid—I say this as the brother and the son of police officers; I do not have any great beef with the police generally—that the vast majority cannot handle the problem, hence the fact that 72% to 75% of those surveyed reported that they were very dissatisfied with the police action taken. That is partly to do with complications in the provisions and partly to do with the new form of the offence, which often involves e-transmissions of some kind, and so on. It is also due to a lack of specific training, which is extremely urgent in this context.
We took evidence from psychologists who advised us that in many instances it is possible to address such offending behaviour. It is vital, in the case of individuals who would be subject to new section 4A and sent away for a period of incarceration, but also in the case of those subject to new section 2A, who would not be, that criminal psychologists get involved fairly soon in order to divert them from their behaviour, because, by its very nature and essence, stalking is an obsessive, often repeat, offence that goes on and on. We heard examples of individuals in prison who were planning the next stalking venture from their prison cell.
I am advised by Laura Richards, in particular, that about 20 to 25 practitioners in the UK are able to diagnose and, in large part, deal with stalking behaviour and divert offenders away from it. That is important, because otherwise all we will do is take them off the streets for a while and then they will be back. Whether they have committed a 2A or a 4A offence, it is vital that we make available the necessary specialist clinical services to deal with them. I am no psychologist and I am not medically qualified, but I know that they often have behavioural, as opposed to psychological, problems. People are trained to help them address that, and their expertise must be used to ensure that we have a proper, tough regime to deal with these awful offenders.
Mark Tami
The right hon. Gentleman touches on an important point. The danger is that, whatever the penalties may be, these people come out of prison and carry on committing the same offence, because they are obsessive to the point that whatever action is taken against them, they will keep on doing it and ruining people’s lives.
Mr Llwyd
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. By its nature, that is the kind of offence that it is, and that is how it ruins people’s lives. I have spoken to many victims who say that it is almost like having a black cloud behind them day and night, and they have to turn around every now and then to make sure that the person is not there. It is an awful situation to be in. I believe that the Bill deals with the problem in large part, if not completely; there are one or two things that I would like to discuss. I am in sympathy with some, but not all of the points raised by the hon. Member for Walthamstow.
We suggested in our report that the offence should be one that is capable of being tried either way, but to be fair to the Home Secretary, she has clearly expanded on how the Government are now looking at this. Although I would argue that stalking is never a minor offence, there are more serious initial offences. It will be partly to do with whether the person has been before the courts before for a similar offence involving a different victim or the same one. My fears are allayed, to a certain extent, by what the Home Secretary said, although we did recommend, as I said, that the offence should be triable either way, as the 4A offence would be.
Following lobbying by NAPO and Protection Against Stalking, Lord Henley announced in the other place an amendment to the wording of the amendment to include psychological harm. I welcome that amendment to the amendment—it is almost like an extension to the extension—because that is crucial. When I had the privilege of meeting the Prime Minister to discuss this, two young women were there who had given us evidence, both of whom would not necessarily fall into the physical harm category but into the psychological damage category. One young woman has received therapy for the past 10 years because of stalking. I am pleased that that element is now included. In effect, it completes the circle.
Tom Brake
It was put to me earlier today by senior police officers that one reason why the police have got more effective at tackling domestic violence is that more women police officers have come into the force. Did the right hon. Gentleman’s inquiry find a link between stalking being treated effectively and the involvement of female police officers?
Mr Llwyd
The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point. We took evidence from several police officers, among whom were several knowledgeable females, who had been training their respective forces. Given that we now have a large number of good senior and junior police officers who are women, it will hopefully be more straightforward to put this legislation into effect than the 1997 Act.
I had come here to argue that the inquiry wanted a single indictable, either-way gateway. However, I am persuaded by what the Home Secretary said. I do not disagree with her analysis of new sections 2A and 4A of the 1997 Act. Hopefully, there will be such discretion for the police. When a repeat offender under new section 2A comes up again, he will clearly be a customer for new section 4A. It is extremely important that that is understood. Searches without warrant will happen under new section 4A, but not under new section 2A. I still believe that that power would have been helpful under new section 2A as well, because the police tell us that the earlier we move in on such people, the better the outcome is likely to be.
Whatever legislation we enact, it is crucial that the police, prosecutors—particularly those within the Crown Prosecution Service—judges and magistrates are trained and instructed properly, through various courses, on the necessary approach to this awful offence.
I know that other Members wish to speak, so I will curtail my remarks, but I first wish to put various questions on the record. I do not realistically expect the Home Secretary, or indeed any Minister, to respond to them all this evening, but I hope she will agree to respond in writing in due course.
My first question is whether there will be a consultation with NAPO, Protection Against Stalking and other stakeholders on the interpretation by police and prosecutors of the list of stalking behaviour contained in new section 2A. I agree that “inter alia” is otiose in the circumstances. There will be a review of the behaviour covered, so the point is dealt with without our having to discuss amendment (a).
Will there be an ongoing discussion about the need for improved victim advocacy, which is vital? I can say without breaching any confidences that the Prime Minister also took the view that that was vital. Will there be a full consultation with PAS, NAPO and other stakeholders on the implementation of the new sections of the 1997 Act? The Home Secretary said that there would be an annual review, which seems to me to provide a vehicle for including those stakeholders.
Will the impact of the new sections on police practice and prosecutions be monitored once they become law later this year? Will there be a full consultation with PAS, NAPO and other stakeholders on the interpretation of the definitions of “fear of violence” and of psychological harm involving serious alarm and distress, and will those definitions be set out in guidelines or training?
Will it be possible to monitor the impact of evidence being seized because of the need for the police to obtain a warrant for a perpetrator’s arrest prior to their property being searched under new section 2A? I was going to ask whether there would be consultation on the guidelines for prosecutors, to ensure that persistent stalkers are charged under new sections 2A and 4A, but that has been dealt with, so I need not bother the Home Secretary with it.
I ask the Government to facilitate the treatment of offenders in such a way that as many as practicable can be diverted away from their offending behaviour. Appropriate courses need to be put in place for police, Crown prosecutors, judges, magistrates and probation officers, to ensure that they are thoroughly trained up. I mention Crown prosecutors because the Crown Prosecution Service has now put together a package to deal with the new legislation. Unfortunately, it will deal only with e-crime, not with crimes in general. I believe that that mistake needs to be put right.
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman has asked a number of detailed questions, and I will be happy to get back to him in writing. We have had very good consultation and a very good relationship with NAPO and Protection Against Stalking in developing the Bill, and I expect to continue to have good consultations and discussions with them as we take the matter forward.
On the issue of perpetrators, the aim of reducing reoffending lies behind the rehabilitation work that the Ministry of Justice is doing, and I will certainly bring the right hon. Gentleman’s comments to the attention of the Secretary of State for Justice.
Mr Llwyd
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for that assurance, which I take to be an invitation to write to her. I had another seven or eight questions, but I shall not labour the House with them this evening.
Before I sit down and allow others to take the matter further, may I once more express my sincere gratitude to all the parliamentarians who took part in the research work? I think this may be the only time when a cross-party group that is not a Committee of the House has succeeded in bringing forward a change in the law. I do not know how often that will happen, but it is certainly a precedent that I favour—I would say that, wouldn’t I?
I wish again to say how grateful we are to Laura Richards of PAS and Harry Fletcher of NAPO, and to all the victims who assisted us by giving evidence. I am also very grateful to the Home Secretary, because I know she has been on the side of the angels on this issue for some time. I am sure she shares my pleasure in the fact that something positive is now being done.
The Bill’s provisions on stalking show that the Government have carried out a listening exercise, and we will now have firm laws. They will prevent lives from being ruined and, crucially, from being lost. They represent an important change in the law, and I have been privileged to play a part in achieving it. The inquiry has been the most enriching and worthwhile experience of my political life, and I am delighted to see the result.
Mr Buckland
I will not repeat the constructive comments of the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) and others on the provisions that all parties have accepted. I am delighted to have been part of the process, but hope that does not give me, as a relatively new Member, a false sense of what can be achieved so quickly by consensus. The Government have moved with speed and with willingness to listen, and I commend their fleetness of foot. I am grateful to them for acting and amending their own amendments. That shows their willingness to listen to the debate and to engage with NAPO and Protection Against Stalking, to which I pay tribute.
The journey does not end here. Once the Bill is passed, it is essential that we get training for police officers and guidance for prosecutors absolutely right and monitor the progress of the new laws. Stalking is emotional terrorism; it is a crime of control, a crime of manipulation and, yes, a crime of violence. It was quite clear from the evidence heard by the all-party inquiry heard these changes to the law were necessary. I started as somebody who was not convinced that the law should be changed, but I ended as somebody who was entirely persuaded. I commend the Government’s amendments to the House.
Stella Creasy
We have listened to the debate, but we are still not satisfied on the question of lesser and more serious charges of stalking. We therefore wish to press amendment (b) to a vote.
Question put, That amendment (b) to Lords amendment 51 be made.
James Brokenshire
I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Lords amendment 2.
Lords amendment 3, and amendment (a) thereto.
Lords amendments 4 to 8.
Lords amendment 9, and amendment (a) thereto.
Lords amendments 10 to 15, 19 to 29, 56, 62, 64 to 66, 70 to 101, 114 to 116 and 134 to 137.
James Brokenshire
The amendments relate to the provisions in parts 1 to 4 of the Bill. Some are of a minor and technical nature, but some are of more substance; given the number of amendments in the group, I propose to focus my comments on the more substantive amendments. We are returning to themes and issues that have been debated at length in the House. Obviously, we judge that improvements have been made in the other place. We very much look forward to debating those issues, as well as the amendments to the Lords amendments proposed by the Opposition.
Amendment 1 takes account of the change in part 5 of the Bill to the definition of “vulnerability”. The new definition is intended to be more straightforward for the police to understand and apply. It relates to the ability of the police to retain the DNA profile of someone who has been arrested but not necessarily charged, and to a measure built in to provide certain safeguards where there was some proximity between the person arrested and the possible victim of a crime. Part of that relies on the definition of “vulnerable adult”. The definition originally applied in clause 3 was taken from the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006. As that Act and definition are amended by the Bill, the 2006 Act definition is no longer suitable because it focuses on the care or treatment being provided to the individual, rather than on the characteristics of the person themselves. For the purposes of clause 3, a different definition is needed, which is why we have imported the definition from the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004, which links vulnerability to the ability of an individual to protect themselves from violence, abuse or neglect, and which we feel fits more neatly the purposes of clause 3. As I have said, the provision is intended to provide a further safeguard where the police arrest someone for a violent or sexual offence, if there is proximity to the victim.
Amendment 2 introduces a limited exception to the general rule, brought forward from the previous Government’s Crime and Security Act 2010, that all samples will be destroyed within six months of being taken. I think both sides of the House agree that DNA samples should be destroyed as soon as practicable, and a six-month window was felt to be appropriate. However, the Government tabled amendment 2 in the other place in response to representations from prosecutors at the Crown Prosecution Service. They told us that, in a limited number of cases each year, it would be necessary to retain individual samples in order to deal with any subsequent challenge by the defence to the comparison made between the DNA of the individual and that found at the crime scene—in other words, to provide reassurance in relation to criminal prosecution. Prosecutors expressed concerns that if they could not retain samples in these cases, they might unable to withstand such a challenge and that acquittals on technical grounds might result.
It might assist right hon. and hon. Members if I give an example of the type of case where such an issue might arise. A crime scene stain could well contain a mixture of the blood of both a stabbing victim and their attacker, and perhaps a third person such as an innocent house-mate of the victim. In such case, the quantity of material from the victim is likely to exceed significantly that from the attacker and the innocent third party. Without retaining the reference samples from all three individuals, the chemistry and analysis used to derive the three individual profiles, and thus make a match to the suspect, might be open to challenge in court.
Lords amendment 2 therefore creates a safeguard by inserting a mechanism into clause 14 to enable the police to decide very early in a case, before any samples have been destroyed, to make an application to the local magistrates court to retain all the individual samples in the case for 12 months. In the majority of cases, 12 months should be long enough to identify a suspect and complete the pre-trial disclosure process, as part of which it would be established whether the defence intended to mount a challenge to the derivation of the DNA profiles and/or the matches that may have arisen; if not, the material would be destroyed at that point. If the derivation of the profiles remained at issue, a further application could be made to the trial judge to retain the material for an additional 12 months.
Lords amendment 3 updates the existing exclusions from the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 to ensure that the new regime in part 1 of the Bill does not apply to the International Criminal Court Act 2001 or the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011, both of which have bespoke retention and destruction regimes in schedule 1 to the Bill. In case the shadow Policing Minister is wondering, I will come to the Opposition’s amendment (a) to Lords amendment 3, but I will go through the Government’s amendments before dealing with the Opposition amendments.
Lords amendments 73 to 83 to part 3 of schedule 1, relate to the retention of DNA profiles and fingerprints as set out in the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, as opposed to those that fall under standard PACE regimes. Specifically, amendment 73 ensures that new section 18 of the Counter-Terrorism Act applies only to biometric material that is held by a law enforcement authority under the law of England, Wales or Northern Ireland, that is not subject to existing statutory restrictions, and that is held for the purposes of national security. The remaining amendments also clarify the scope of the application of the provisions amending the retention regime under section 18 of the 2008 Act. They extend the list of existing statutory restrictions set out in the Act and permit law enforcement authorities to retain anonymous material indefinitely. The amendments would essentially prevent the premature deletion of profiles, before a proper investigation into who the sample belongs to has taken place.
The separate issue of biometrics in schools is dealt with by Lords amendments 7 to 14. The Government consider a child’s biometric information to be highly personal and sensitive, and as such, it should be afforded greater protection. We debated these issues at length in Committee during the Bill’s earlier passage through this House. There is general agreement in both Houses that schools and colleges should be required to obtain the consent of a child’s parents if they wish to take and process a child’s biometric information. We listened carefully to the concerns raised about how the proposal to seek the written consent of each parent would impose an unreasonable additional burden on schools and colleges, and that it could discourage schools and colleges from using biometric recognition technology. Lords amendments 7 to 14 would remove the requirement for both parents to give consent, and provide instead for schools and colleges to be required to notify both parents that they intend to take and process the child’s biometric information. As long as no parent objects in writing, the written consent of only one parent will suffice.
We believe that Lords amendments 7 to 14 strike a sensible balance between ensuring that the views of both parents continue to be taken into account and preserving their right to object, as well as ensuring that the administrative burden on schools and colleges is not too great. The amendments also bring the consent requirements in the Bill more in line with all the other forms of consent that schools and colleges are required to have. The main difference in this instance is the express provision to notify both parents of a child, and the stipulation that if any parent objects, the processing of their child’s biometric information cannot take place. The amendments in no way lessen the key purpose of this part of the Bill, which is to ensure that children’s personal and sensitive data are properly protected.
The amendments to part 4 of the Bill relate to pre-charge detention. Lords amendment 27, which is a response to a further recommendation from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, relates to clause 58, which contains a power for the Secretary of State to increase the maximum limit of pre-charge detention for terrorist suspects to 28 days for a three-month period in circumstances where Parliament is dissolved or in the period before the first Queen’s Speech of the new Parliament. The Committee previously considered a similar order-making power in the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011. That Act contains a duty for an order made when Parliament is not sitting to be laid as soon as practicable afterwards. To ensure consistency across these two pieces of legislation, and in keeping with the Committee’s recommendation, Lords amendment 27 requires a draft of a clause 58 order to be laid before Parliament once it has reassembled following a general election.
Lords amendment 28 is designed also to respond to an observation from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee by removing any requirement for an order that revokes a 28-day pre-charge detention extension to be approved by Parliament. The extension by order of pre-charge detention to 28 days would be exceptional, as we have said previously; therefore revoking the order would simply return the pre-charge detention arrangements to the status quo.
Lords amendments 29 and 101 are a response to a recommendation from the Joint Committee on Human Rights on stop-and-search powers. The purpose of the amendments is to ensure that the police officer who is considering whether to authorise the use of stop-and-search powers under section 47A of the Terrorism Act 2000 is reasonable in his or her consideration of the necessity of using the powers, as well as in his or her suspicion that an act of terrorism will take place. The Government believe that the amendments made in the other place have improved the relevant provisions of the Bill, and I commend them to the House.
Let me turn to the Opposition amendments in the group, starting with amendment (a) to Lords amendment 3. On our reading, it would effectively disapply all the substantive provisions of chapter 1 of part 1 of the Bill in cases of an alleged offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003. In practice, if a person was arrested for, or charged with, any offence under the 2003 Act, there would be no requirement to destroy DNA samples and no time limit on the retention of DNA profiles or fingerprints. It is interesting that, with amendment (a), Labour appears to be changing the position it held in government, when Ministers appeared to argue that a six-year limit was appropriate. They also said that they acknowledged the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights in the S and Marper case, and their proposals in the Crime and Security Act 2010 were intended to follow through on that.
When the Bill was last before this House, we discussed at some length whether it was appropriate to retain such material for three or six years. Now the Opposition apparently wish to ignore even their own previous analysis, and instead go back to keeping everything for ever in cases involving offences under the 2003 Act. Before, when we challenged the Opposition on this, they said, “No, no, it is not our intention to keep DNA profiles for ever. We wish to stick rigidly to the six-year rule,” so it is interesting—and notable, given their statements that they are now moving more in the direction of protecting individual liberty—that they are now reverting to type and seeking to retain indefinitely the DNA profile of people who might be innocent of any crime.
James Brokenshire
I will give way to the hon. Lady, and as I have said, I look forward to hearing the Opposition’s clarification on the amendment.
Diana Johnson
Will the Minister clarify what would happen if one or both parents have refused permission for biometric data to be taken from their child, but the child wishes to consent? Would the child have the right to have their biometric information taken?
James Brokenshire
As the hon. Lady will be aware, the provisions relate to the consent of the parents. They say that the consent of one parent is required, but it is left open to the other parent to object, and such an objection would stand. If need be, in the light of the arguments that the right hon. Member for Delyn makes for his amendment, I will provide further clarification.
Finally, I turn to the motion to disagree with Lords amendment 28. The amendment is a response to an observation from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee that questioned the necessity of an affirmative procedure for an order revoking a temporary extension order. In the Government’s response to the Committee, we concluded that it was not necessary to subject a revocation order to parliamentary scrutiny, given that it would be neither appropriate nor meaningful. The Committee did not take issue with that conclusion. It would be perverse if Parliament were in the position of debating and voting on a revocation order when it had not had the opportunity to approve the original temporary extension order, given that the order had been revoked before it had been approved. Any such debate would be likely to be academic because a temporary extension order lasts for only three months, and there is therefore a strong possibility that an order would have expired before any debate had taken place. Furthermore, a revocation order will simply return the maximum period of detention to 14 days, the maximum period already approved by Parliament, which negates the need for parliamentary approval of a revocation order. That remains the Government’s view, and I hope that the House will not support the Opposition’s motion to disagree with the Lords amendment.
Mr Hanson
As the Minister has said, we are indeed traversing old ground that is familiar to me, to him and to his officials. The initial discussion on DNA retention had its genesis in the debates on what became the Crime and Security Act 2010, which was produced during what I shall have to call the dying days of the last Labour Government. At that time, the then Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), and I, the then Policing Minister, wrestled with the issues on DNA retention. We looked at them in great detail, and made an assessment of the judgments of the European Court of Human Rights on these matters.
We also considered how we could maximise the envelope that was available for the retention of DNA. That was a matter of judgment. We wished to ensure that we had the greatest possible ability under the legal requirements set down under those European Court judgments to maintain the retention of DNA so that we could use it to catch criminals who had committed crimes or who could potentially commit further crimes. We made the assessment—rightly or wrongly; we believe rightly—that there were between 20,000 and 23,000 individuals who might well have committed crimes during the six years. With the shorter period that the Minister is proposing in the Bill, such people will not now have to face that judgment. The police might not be able to use the DNA samples any more when the Bill comes into force, as the DNA profiles will no longer be in place. This is indeed old ground.
The 2010 Act was the subject of a difference of opinion between me and the then shadow Minister, and that difference has not changed in the subsequent two years. Happily in many ways, I was not party to the Bill’s initial consideration in Committee, as I was at that time shadowing Treasury Ministers. I returned in October, however, to find that the Government were intent on progressing the change in the DNA regime. I see my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell), who was a Home Office Minister at the time. Let me say that as a name for a Bill, the Protection of Freedoms Bill is one of the greatest misnomers ever in my near 20-year career in this House. It unpicks the impact of Labour’s 2010 Act. In so doing, I believe it puts at risk individuals in our communities who could have been helped and supported and could have been protected from becoming victims by the provisions of the 2010 Act.
Our amendment (a), to which the Minister has referred, is meant to provide a device to allow us to debate some of the serious offences that would be impacted by the Government’s proposed changes to the DNA regime. We have argued strongly—it is a matter of judgment—that the Crime and Security Act 2010 was the best way to meet our European obligations at the same time as trying to protect civil liberties and ensuring also that the British people would be free of murder, rape and crime. There are balances to be struck in ministerial life, which is always about balances. When I was in government with my fellow Ministers in the Home Office—the Department that the present Minister is now privileged to serve—we felt that under European law and paying respect to the protection of liberties, we should try to extend the window of opportunity to protect as many people as possible by ensuring that DNA samples were collected.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that if someone’s DNA is held on a database, it does not impinge on their freedoms to go about their daily lawful business, unimpeded in anything they want to do? Does he further agree that people’s freedoms are enhanced by having as many murderers, rapists and other serious offenders brought to justice and put behind bars, rather than having them wandering the streets because their DNA is not on a database?
Mr Hanson
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support on this matter. He has been consistent in his support for the Opposition’s proposals and has joined us in Divisions. Deep down, he understands that the Conservative party’s legacy as the party of law and order is seriously being put at risk by measures that are soft on individuals who have the potential to commit rape, murder or other serious crimes, who could be prevented from committing those crimes if their DNA were on a database for a longer period. I believe that that presents a real risk not just to public, but to the reputation of the Conservative party.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
I want to be clear about what the right hon. Gentleman is saying about this Lords amendment. Does he accept that the amendment would mean that somebody accused and arrested only once for a malicious sexual offence would have their DNA kept for ever—in clear contravention of the European Court’s ruling? Is he admitting that his amendment is deeply flawed and that he is using it merely as a debating point rather than planning to insist on a vote—in other words, that he does not believe in his own amendment?
Mr Hanson
The hon. Gentleman will know that through Lords amendments, we are seeking to find a mechanism to debate serious issues such as rape and other serious crimes. The Sexual Offences Act 2003 includes rape and a range of associated issues, which we want to debate. The amendment might not have been tabled perfectly; it was done at the last minute in order to find a way to discuss the key issues. We wanted the Government to hear again, before the Bill receives its Royal Assent, arguments from people such as the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and some of my hon. Friends who have real and genuine concerns. We do not want the Government to proceed with allowing the DNA of some individuals to be destroyed earlier than it needs to be, as this will potentially put at risk individuals in the community at large.
Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
I accept some of what the right hon. Gentleman says, but surely he must recognise that there are shades of grey in this debate. He says that we need to be protected from murderers and rapists, but many law-abiding citizens have concerns about being fitted up by the police or the possibility of the science and technology proving faulty—and who knows where DNA technology will be in 20 or 30 years’ time? Does he not recognise that there are shades of grey in this particular debate, and that painting it in the simplistic way he does—although it is good that we are having this debate—rather debases his argument?
Mr Hanson
Let me reassure the hon. Gentleman that I am not trying to turn this into a simplistic debate. As Home Office Ministers, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) and I wrestled with officials for many months about where to draw the line on this matter. We recognised that there were different places to draw it. What we tried to do in government was to draw the line at the furthest point we possibly could to ensure that we maximised the police’s ability to collect and examine DNA so that subsequent crimes could be solved by its use. Because rape and murder are not always one-off crimes but repeat offences, we wanted to prevent further victims downstream. We looked at that in the light of our European responsibilities, and we drew the line at six years.
To answer the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), I still wish to draw the line at six years today. I accept that the amendment may be technically flawed, but its purpose, given the limited opportunities available, was to put our concerns to the Minister, as I have explained. We want to stress that the impact of sexual offences and other serious crimes needs to be examined. What is the clear difference between the Minister and me? It is the fact that his proposals to restrict the use of DNA put at risk people’s lives and their ability to enjoy them freely without being subjected to sexual offences. I fear that the Minister and I will continue to disagree on those issues. Let me tell him that the gut instinct of many Conservative Members is to share the gut instincts of many Labour Members. What we are trying to do is at least to give the Minister an opportunity to look at these issues again.
Jeremy Corbyn
Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people are very concerned about the way in which DNA is collected and stored? Clearly, when someone has been reported, questioned and possibly arrested by the police, but then exonerated—with no conviction and in many cases no trial—surely there is no case for storing their DNA. This is what leads to a great sense of unease for many people and probably diminishes relations between the community and the police as a result. Is my right hon. Friend not concerned about that? I know that he had to make these judgments as a Minister.
Mr Hanson
We did have to make those judgments when we were in government, and our judgment was that having the envelope of six years was consistent with our European obligations, and also with the pattern of offending. If people had not reoffended within the six years, the likelihood of further offences diminished considerably. People tended to reoffend within a one-year to six-year period. I genuinely take my hon. Friend’s concerns about the retention of DNA impacting on people’s civil liberties. However, I support what the hon. Member for Shipley said, as being raped, murdered or subjected to serious crimes also has an impact on people’s civil liberties.
As a Minister I had to make a balanced judgment, and the judgment reached by me and by my colleagues was that six years was an appropriate limit. There is an honest disagreement between the present Minister and me about that.
The Government’s own research—research carried out by the Home Office in July 2010—found that 23,000 people every year whose DNA would be retained on the database as a result of our proposals, but that would not be as a result of the Government’s, would commit further offences. We are talking about 23,000 further offences. My amendment may be flawed—I do not have recourse to all the fine civil servants who are available to the Department—but my aim was to initiate a discussion about sexual offences, and to persuade the Minister to reflect on the issues once more before the Government’s proposals became law.
Philip Davies
Does the Minister know of any innocent person who has been negatively affected by the placing of his details on a DNA database? This is a question of balance. The Government’s main aim appears to be to ensure that the DNA of someone who has not committed a crime is not put on the database, but as far as I know that does such people no harm. Surely a greater danger is posed by the person whose DNA should be on the database but is not, and who then commits a crime that is not detected.
Mr Hanson
I hesitate to agree with the hon. Gentleman yet again, but I do agree with him. As far as I am aware, the fact that someone’s DNA is on the database under the 2010 Act is known only by the police—if they wish to examine it—and by the person concerned, and they can tell whoever they wish to tell, or alternatively tell no one. It is not a matter of public knowledge.
This is the nub of my amendment, flawed though it is. Of the 23,000 people I mentioned earlier, about 6,000 a year will go on to commit serious crimes, including rape and other sexual offences, murder and manslaughter. I simply ask—as I have on every occasion when I have had an opportunity to discuss the issue—why we should allow that to happen when we have the ability, potentially, to prevent it from happening.
Mr Hanson
We have had a debate about this and there is an honest disagreement between the Minister and me, but the hon. Gentleman needs to recognise that the DNA database, as constituted under the 2010 Act, would prevent those 6,000 serious crimes from taking place. He may shake his head, but that is what he needs to recognise.
Let me give an example involving an event that took place after our debate on 10 October. A newspaper report, headed “Warning as bogus cab driver is jailed for rape”, stated:
“Marcos De Souza, 32, was trapped because his DNA was held on file even though he had no criminal record. The Brazilian had lured the drunken 19-year-old into his car as she left a house party in Camden in February.
The victim was so drunk the sex predator believed she would never remember what was about to happen to her…But when she arrived home dishevelled, her boyfriend encouraged her to call police and De Souza’s DNA was found after tests. The sex predator was traced because police had taken his DNA when he was arrested after a previous girlfriend claimed he had assaulted her. The case was discontinued but his profile was retained on the national database.”
That DNA would not have been retained under the Government’s current proposals.
I accept that my amendment is not perfect. I may not have advanced the same argument in the past, and it is possible that I shall not do so in the future. The purpose of the amendment is to persuade the Minister to reflect again on the views of the hon. Member for Shipley and other Members.
Keith Vaz
I apologise for missing the earlier part of my right hon. Friend’s no doubt excellent speech. Given that his amendment is raising a number of issues, will he respond to the concern that some of us feel about the disproportionate number of black and Asian people whose names and details are on the database? There seems to be no explanation for it.
Mr Hanson
I consider the retention of the six-year limit specified by the 2010 Act to be a proportionate response. Certainly issues related to stop-and-search powers and charging need to be investigated in the context of police practice, but the fact remains that the DNA that is being kept under the Act has prevented the committing of further crimes, and would continue to do so if the six-year period were retained. I am happy for my right hon. Friend to take up the issue of how DNA is taken in the first place, and to draw attention to instances in which people are picked up and charged but not convicted, or picked up and not charged at all. However, I venture to suggest that that issue is separate from the one that we are considering, which is the retention of DNA over a long period.
Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)
May I try to help the right hon. Gentleman? The basic principle being advanced is that the retention of DNA prevents further crimes, but I think that what he really means is that it assists in the detection of further crimes. The mere holding of DNA would not have prevented even the case that he cited.
Mr Hanson
I am afraid that I disagree fundamentally with the hon. Gentleman. Someone might be picked up as a result of the retention of DNA following the commission of one crime, but how many times has the hon. Gentleman seen reports about serial rapists or serial murderers on the television news? Potential further victims might not be actual victims because the individual concerned had been apprehended owing to the collection of his DNA. As I have said, I accept that my amendment is flawed, but I believe that the principle behind the use of DNA and the retention of the six-year period for the purpose of dealing with serious sexual crimes is fundamental.
Mike Crockart
I accept some of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, but he should be very careful about the language that he uses in debates such as this. He should not blindly claim that the retention of DNA would prevent 6,500 further offences, as he did earlier, because that is simply not correct. The retention of DNA would contribute to detection, but it would not prevent.
Mr Hanson
I venture to disagree. The figures that I gave were Home Office figures produced for the Minister in July 2010.
The point that I am making, which I think is valid, is that the retention of DNA could, in a number of cases, prevent repeat offences. That is why the hon. Member for Shipley supports the amendment, and why my hon. Friends agree with what I have said. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), it is sometimes a case of making a balanced judgment. We make judgments as Ministers, and the six-years judgment was the one that we made within the envelope that was available to us. I believe that it was the right judgment, and my amendments—which I accept are flawed—were tabled so that we could debate the principle again.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
I have been following the right hon. Gentleman’s argument with some interest. Would it not be more consistent with his argument about prevention if everyone’s details were put on a DNA database—not that I am recommending such a course of action?
Mr Hanson
There is a range of views in the House, but what we have been trying to do consistently, both in opposition and in government, is maximise the amount of time for which we can retain DNA within European law, and we believe that six years is an appropriate period. I believe—and Home Office information on future crimes confirms—that that can help us to catch criminals and bring people to justice, and indeed it has done so. I ask the Minister to think again before it is too late. I welcome the changes that he has made in Lords amendments 1 and 2, I welcome his introduction of further safeguards, I welcome the fact that Lords amendment 2 allows DNA samples to be examined for different periods, and indeed I welcome the changes that he has made generally. I simply ask why we have not considered them in a wider context so far.
I want to say a little about two amendments which, at a very late stage, were grouped with the DNA proposals. Lords amendment 9 deals with biometric testing in schools. It changes the law so that only one parent, rather than both parents, must give written consent, but retains the position whereby either parent can withdraw consent. Our amendment changes the wording from “and” to “or” so that biometric data can be collected if one parent has given consent or neither parent has withdrawn consent.
Dr Huppert
I assume that the right hon. Gentleman’s amendments are carefully drafted and that he intends what they state. Does he agree that the consequence of that change would be as follows: if no parent has consented but neither has actively objected, that would count as consent—in other words, consent would be assumed even if neither parent had ever said they were happy for that to happen?
Mr Hanson
Yes; my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) has dealt with this matter in Committee and throughout the Bill’s passage, and that is the position of the official Opposition.
We note the amendments proposed in the other place by the Government, and there has been some recognition that the original clauses as drafted were far too onerous, as they needed both parents to give written consent for biometric data to be taken from the child. The amendments also correct an omission, by recognising that not all children have parents, and that those with caring responsibilities needed to be included in this provision for it to be able to work effectively. However, we also note that one parent can still overrule the consent of the other in agreeing for the child to give biometric data, which, again, can cause confusion for schools. We think that, overall, this policy is still unwieldy and unmanageable for most schools.
Furthermore, we do not believe that allowing a child to override their parents’ wish to allow biometric data to be taken is sensible or correct. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that that would be the case under the proposals as they currently stand. There does not appear to be any other circumstance in which a child of, for example, five years of age can overrule parental consent. Also, we note that if the parents have refused to give consent, the child is not in a position to override the parents’ wishes if the child chooses to give consent. We think that amendment (a) to Lords amendment 9 would be a further sensible step, by allowing schools to operate this policy in a more manageable way by presuming an acceptance of biometric data being taken if no contact is made by the parents or carers once they have been notified.
I welcome Lords amendment 27. It gives a more prominent role to Parliament. As I have argued previously, it would be appropriate for the Government to lay an order before the House in order to ensure that these matters are dealt with during recesses or general election campaigns. It is important that the Government lay an order before the House, but it is also important that the Government make a statement as to the purposes of the order. I seek assurances from the Minister that he will not lay any order before the House without making a statement to the House explaining the reasons for seeking an order in those exceptional circumstances.
I have concerns about Lords amendment 28. It will allow the Government to withdraw temporary extensions to anti-terror measures without any parliamentary procedure at all. The effect will be to demand that the Government must seek parliamentary approval when strengthening anti-terror measures, but that they can weaken anti-terror measures without consulting Parliament. I heard the Minister’s explanation of that. Temporary extension will be brought in only during times of exceptional risk and the individuals held under these measures will be considered a serious threat to national security. Therefore, if Parliament has had to decide that these measures are necessary in the first instance, Parliament should also get to decide that these powers are no longer necessary. There is no more important issue than protecting the public, but we must have an explanation and an order placed before the House when these powers are revoked.
I accept that our amendment is flawed and does not achieve the objective I would wish, but there are major issues in respect of the retention of DNA which the Minister should, even at this late stage, reconsider and re-examine in detail. I hope he will also answer the questions I asked about counter-terrorism and biometrics in school.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
I wish to raise one specific issue in relation to Lords amendment 3, and I put on the record my interest as a life member of the Magistrates Association. Ministers propose that the possible holding of DNA on the database beyond the period covered by the legislation could be agreed on application to a district judge. My understanding is that they have drawn on the experience in Scotland, where agreement from the sheriff and the sheriff courts is required. Has consideration been given to extending that provision to cover justices of the peace who are members of the lay magistracy? Unlike in Scotland, the magistrates court works as a single bench; there is no hierarchical difference or difference in terms of courts between district judges and lay magistrates.
James Brokenshire
We have carefully considered the issue of the balance between the lay magistracy and the more professional judiciary. On the specific issues in question, we judge that because of the likely number of cases and the role required, the current measures are the right ones. However, we will continue to keep this under review as the legislation comes into effect and is applied.
Kate Green
I thank the Minister for that assurance, and I certainly hope the situation will be kept under review. District judges are paid members of the magistracy, and I am sure the Minister is not suggesting that there is less professionalism in the quality of judgments of the lay magistracy.
Keith Vaz
First, may I apologise for missing the opening speeches in this debate? I imagine, however, that they followed the usual form, with the Minister saying there are real problems with the retention of names on the database and the Opposition saying they ought to be retained because of the possibility that someone whose DNA is retained may well commit an offence in future, so it is better to hang on to it than to get rid of it.
My attention was drawn to this matter when a constituent of mine who had no previous convictions was at a pub and intervened to prevent a fight between two individuals. As a result of his intervention, his DNA was retained, and remains on the database. To be fair, the shadow Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), said it was important that Parliament as a whole should debate this issue. My position is that if someone has not committed an offence, their DNA should not be retained on the database. There is absolutely no reason to do so. We can either have a position, as set out by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards)—as I doubted whether I could pronounce his constituency, I almost called him the hon. Member for the whole of Wales—under which everyone is on the DNA database, so that is fair to everybody, or we can have a position whereby only the DNA of those who have committed an offence are on the database.
Jeremy Corbyn
Is my right hon. Friend concerned about the disproportionate number of black and ethnic minority people whose records are kept and the disproportionate number of young people who are pulled in for questioning because of incidents in the street whose DNA is kept, although often no charge is made, and they are then under some form of surveillance? Does he think that that is very damaging to their relations with the police?
Keith Vaz
Yes, I do. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is a concern about certain other groups, as well as those in ethnic minority communities, whose DNA is retained disproportionately. We have proportionately the largest DNA database of any country in the world. I am sorry to say that at the end of the previous Labour Government we lost our way on civil liberties issues. That has been acknowledged and there has been a mea culpa; those on the Front Bench, leaders and candidates in the Labour leadership election have all admitted that this had been a problem for us. However, we now have an opportunity to pause and to look at these issues carefully again.
Philip Davies
I wish to bring the right hon. Gentleman back to the case of his constituent who intervened in the fight and was put on the DNA database. How has that person’s life been negatively affected by having those details on the DNA database? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that if people do not go on to commit a crime, they will not be negatively affected by having their details on a DNA database?
Keith Vaz
I ask the hon. Gentleman, who always speaks up for the rights of the individual, this: why should a totally innocent person who seeks to intervene to stop a fight—one of the have-a-go heroes of this world, of whom he is the champion, not just in Shipley, but in other parts of the country—have their DNA retained because of their act of kindness in trying to stop further violence? It is absolutely wrong for that to happen; such people should be able to intervene and not fear that any DNA should be kept.
Philip Davies
I will have another go. Rather than asking me a question, although I am happy to debate it at a later date, I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman will answer my question: how was this person negatively affected by having their details on the DNA database?
Keith Vaz
I thought that I had answered the hon. Gentleman’s question. Why should a person in such a situation, through no fault of their own, have any part of their identity retained by a third party, given that they were not involved in any criminal offence? This is about freedom and liberty; it is a freedom not to have our information kept on a database.
If everybody was on the DNA database, the situation would be different. I am not advocating such an approach, because the state already has far too much information on us. We talked about all the offences created under successive Governments in respect of entry into people’s properties and the review that that Government have announced. Why should we suddenly want to give up all this information? Who is to retain it? How long is it to be retained for? Those are crucial questions and this Government are adopting the right approach. We have to pause, we have to examine what has happened over the past few years and we have to say, “Enough is enough.” I hope that, in looking at these issues, we will address the fundamental flaws in the database. If any suggestions are going to be made to improve the situation, I am sure that Parliament would want to enact them. However, the course that has been advocated—removing the DNA of innocent people over a specific period—is the right one to adopt at the moment.
Lords amendment 1 agreed to.
Lords amendments 2 to 15 and 19 to 29 agreed to.
Clause 64
Restrictions on scope of regulated activites: children
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
With this we will discuss the following:
Lords amendment 31, and amendment (a) thereto.
Lords amendments 32 to 47.
Lords amendment 48, and amendment (a) thereto.
Lords amendment 49, and amendment (a) thereto.
Lords amendment 50, and amendment (a) thereto.
Lords amendments 53 to 55, 57 and 58, 60 and 61, 63, 67 and 69.
Lords amendment 102, and amendment (a) thereto.
Lords amendment 103, and amendment (a) thereto.
Lords amendments 104 to 113, 117 to 132 and 138 to 145.
Diana Johnson
I wish to put on the record the fact that Lords amendments 33 to 36 are very welcome, as they relate to a matter raised in Committee and on Report, and directly with the Prime Minister. Originally, the Government planned that anyone committing a serious sexual offence against a child would not automatically be placed on the barred list unless they had worked with children or planned to do so. We are pleased that the argument we made in Committee has been accepted by the Government and that now, for all serious sexual offences committed against a child, the perpetrator will automatically be placed on the barred list. The original plans were bureaucratic and appeared to the general public to leave children in a potentially vulnerable position, so we very much welcome the Government’s action.
Both Houses of Parliament have debated extensively the vetting and barring part of the Bill. One of the key issues debated at length was what constitutes “supervision” of a volunteer and how that relates to ensuring that children are properly protected. Initially, in the Commons, the Government turned their face against defining “supervision”, but they have now set out a definition, albeit a very weak one, in amendments 30 and 31, which refer to both children and vulnerable adults.
At this stage, I wish to refer to the excellent report by the all-party group on child protection, chaired with great knowledge by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), which also called for a tightening up the definition of “supervision”. Amendments (a) to Lords Amendments 30 and 31 deal with this issue, and it is important to set out why the definition of “supervision” is so important.
Under the Government’s new system, any employer, voluntary sector body or charity will be aware that, from the Bill’s enactment, they will be able to obtain full disclosure of information about an individual only if that person is in “regulated activity”, which is now much more narrowly defined in the Bill. To take schools as an example, we know that all employees in a school will be in “regulated activity”, so full information on teachers and caretakers, including details of cautions, convictions and barred status, and any soft information, will be available. However, we also know that if we delve a little further in a regulated setting, we find people who might have volunteered within the school—to read with the children in an individual classroom a few times a week, for example. They will not be deemed to be in “regulated activity” if they are supervised within the school. Will the Minister clarify whether the school will be committing an offence if it requests information on the barred status of a volunteer who is supervised? The measures mean that schools will not have the right to any information about whether a volunteer had been barred by the Independent Safeguarding Authority. If a school decides to apply for a Criminal Records Bureau check, they will be provided only with very basic CRB check information.
I will return to this point in relation to Lords amendment 48, but first let me address the question of supervision. There is genuine concern that “supervision” is a very loose concept, which can mean many different things to different people, and that could put children and vulnerable adults at risk.
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and for her kind words. I apologise that I was not quite in the Chamber when she started speaking.
Are there not two areas of risk? First, if someone has something in their background that has previously been identified, it should be notified to the school so that the school can make an appropriate decision. Secondly, the supervision needs to be close to ensure that the behaviour and propensity to groom a child and build a specific relationship with them can be identified sooner.
Diana Johnson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. She speaks with great knowledge and makes very important points. Those two issues are key when it comes to looking at supervision, volunteering and information sharing. The problem is with the looseness of the definition of supervision. Supervision must be close enough to make it meaningful. When a volunteer is in a classroom engaging in an activity such as teaching a child to read or listening to a child read, there is a formation of trust between the volunteer and the child. That might be in a classroom where a teacher and teaching assistant are present, but unfortunately grooming could be taking place in some cases. Similarly, a volunteer sports coach develops a level of trust and relationships with young people on the sports field. Such bonds and levels of trust are also formed in youth clubs.
A number of highly informed Lords raised those questions in the other place. I pay tribute to the excellent contributions of the noble Baronesses Royall and Butler-Sloss, the noble Bishops of Hereford and of Newcastle and the noble Lord Bichard who, as we all know, conducted the Soham inquiry and has great knowledge of this area of child protection. I ask the Government to reconsider what the noble Lords said from a position of great knowledge and experience.
It is very important that, wherever possible, supervision is meaningful and ensures that everything can be done to make sure that volunteers behave properly at all times and that children are kept safe. The vast majority of volunteers give their time freely and want to give something back to society, and we applaud them for doing that, but we know that people who want to harm children are very devious and manipulative. They are always looking for a way to access children, and if there is a weak link in the chain—the weak supervision of volunteers, for example—they will use that to their advantage. So that employers fully understand all their responsibilities in having volunteers on site or within their organisation, and use best practice in dealing with volunteers, it is important to provide a proper definition of supervision and guidance.
The Sport and Recreation Alliance, Fair Play for Children and many other charities have highlighted the problems of using the notion of supervision to decide whether a person is in a position to exploit their relationship with children from reading with children in a class or volunteering as a sports coach. We have considered several definitions of supervision in our deliberations on the Bill. One was about day-to-day supervision, but after a long debate it was felt that that definition would not be enough to ensure close supervision. For example, a football coach could see their supervisor for a quick chat at the beginning of the day and that could be it for their supervision for the day. They could then be with children for long periods of time each day, perhaps taking them to a distant football field for several hours out of the supervisor’s eyesight and earshot. Similarly, a drama volunteer could be working with children in another room away from a supervisor, week in week out. They might have a short supervision once a day with the supervisor, but for the majority of the time they could be away from any real oversight. Most people would think that such volunteers should be subject to full background checks, and that if they are not, they should be effectively and constantly supervised.
The definition of supervision we have set out in amendment (a) in lieu of Lords amendment 30 is
“constant monitoring by an individual engaged in a regulated activity who is on the same site and able to maintain close visual and audio contact with the individual who is under supervision.”
We believe that definition is helpful and sets out for everyone who needs to read and act on it the required standard and what is expected when supervising a volunteer in regulated activity. Given the importance of this issue, I will seek to press the amendment to a vote to test the opinion of the House.
Lords amendment 48, which the Government tabled in the other place, provides welcome clarification on how police forces should record cautions. The effect seems to be that cautions will now always be treated as convictions. The inevitable result of that will be that many more cautions will be disclosed on CRB checks. Given that the Government are to disclose more information on CRB checks, I am surprised that they continue to block the release of information on barred status to a school or voluntary organisation. That is why my hon. Friends and I tabled amendment (a) in lieu of Lords amendment 48, under which barred status issued by the Independent Safeguarding Authority would be treated in the same way as a conviction or caution. Under our amendment, barred status could be disclosed to a school or voluntary organisation when they request an enhanced CRB check on a volunteer. The Government appear to be making it an offence for such organisations to make a request about barred status, as they previously could.
We have spent many hours discussing in Committee, on Report and in the other place how the arrangement would work. I am concerned that the Government have not heeded the advice offered to them by a range of knowledgeable sources, including the NSPCC, Fair Play for Children and the Sport and Recreation Alliance. Those organisations have all called for barred status to be revealed, as has the noble Lord Bichard, who conducted the review of the Soham murders. He tabled amendments on this issue in the other House for which he had the support of many noble Lords including several bishops. I hope that at this late stage the Minister will reflect on the opinions of so many experts in this field.
Let us consider where these questions might arise. Suppose that a supply teacher is barred from working with children after substantiated allegations of inappropriate conduct are made by four schools. Suppose that teacher then goes to another local authority and volunteers to hear reading in a classroom, twice a week, taking children out of the classroom and working with them on a one-to-one basis for 15 minutes. Under the Government’s proposals the school would be prevented from finding out that that person was barred from working with children. I do not think that is right and I believe that the vast majority of parents would agree with me.
The Government have consistently stated that they do not believe it is proportionate to reveal barred status, but they are happy to reveal any criminal conviction, regardless of whether it is relevant to child protection; similarly, any caution can be disclosed, regardless of whether it is relevant to child protection. Yet information on whether a person has been assessed by experts at the Independent Safeguarding Authority and deemed inappropriate to work with children cannot be disclosed. The Government’s response has been to say that the evidence leading to the barring decision will be revealed. To that end we welcome Lords amendments 37 and 38, but information sharing between the ISA and the police is not enough unless that information is then passed to the school. One of the key recommendations from the Soham inquiry was about the need to share information.
James Brokenshire
In many respects, I am speaking on behalf of the Minister for Equalities, who is also responsible for criminal information; she would wish to be here if it were not for a family emergency.
This group of amendments relates to parts 5 and 7 of the Bill. Part 5 will implement our reforms to the disclosure and barring arrangements, which will scale them back to common-sense levels. The Lords amendments to part 5 address a number of concerns raised by hon. Members in our earlier deliberations on its important provisions. We have had useful debates on the issues in this House and the other place, and I am pleased that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) welcomes Lords amendments 33 to 36, which amend clause 67 and relate to the criteria for automatic barring by the Independent Safeguarding Authority.
Our review of the disclosure and barring scheme concluded that it did not make sense to bar somebody if they had never worked, and are unlikely ever to work, in regulated activity. We recognise that this change to the barring arrangements was a matter of concern to hon. Members in this House and in another place, and to partner organisations. We therefore brought forward the amendments, so that people convicted of the most serious offences, such as the rape of a child—in such cases, representations are not allowed—are barred automatically, whether or not they have any link to regulated activity. In all other cases, a person will be barred only if they have been, are, or might in the future be involved in regulated activity. Should they ever apply to work in regulated activity, their details will be passed to the Independent Safeguarding Authority or the disclosure and barring service, which will consider them for barring at that point. I welcome what the hon. Lady said in that regard.
On amendments 30 and 31, obviously there continues to be a genuine difference between the two sides of the House. I listened carefully and intently to what the hon. Lady said. Amendments 30 and 31 amend clause 64, which amends the definition of “regulated activity” and introduces the concept of regular and day-to-day supervision of individuals whose work would be regulated activity if unsupervised. We previously debated at length the appropriate level of supervision; the Opposition suggested that it should be “close” and “constant”; notwithstanding what the hon. Lady has said, we still believe that that formula is unworkable in practice.
When the Bill left this House, it already made provision for the Secretary of State to issue guidance on the meaning of “day to day supervision”. Amendments 30 and 31 require the level of supervision to be reasonable in all the circumstances for protecting children. That qualitative threshold, coupled with the statutory guidance, will assist employers and voluntary organisations in making appropriate judgments as to which of their supervised staff or volunteers fall within or outside the scope of regulated activity. The hon. Lady’s amendments to Lords amendments 30 and 31 would remove the definition of “day to day supervision” in clause 64 and replace it with:
“constant monitoring by an individual engaged in a regulated activity who is on the same site and able to maintain close visual and audio contact with the individual who is under supervision.”
Such constant monitoring is, in our judgment, likely to be impossible in practice. A trip away from a classroom, perhaps for a comfort break or something like that, would be enough to cause someone to fall foul of the amendments. The effect of the amendments would be to reinstate all supervised people within regulated activity.
I appreciate that this is a point of difference between us, and I know that the hon. Lady has considered the issue carefully, but as we have said, we believe that although it is right that all paid staff and unsupervised volunteers in specified places such as schools, and unsupervised staff in other places who carry out activities such as teaching and training, should be within regulated activity, it is not proportionate to include other staff in those areas within regulated activity. Lords amendments 30 and 31 make it clear that the test of supervision is whether it is reasonable in all the circumstances for child protection, so if supervision is not reasonable, the person falls within regulated activity, but if it is reasonable, there is no need for them to do so. Our judgment is that that is right, in order to empower employers to make decisions, to reduce unnecessary burdens on employers, and to remove barriers to volunteering. If a grandparent whom a head teacher has known for years wants to help out with reading at their local school, why should the head teacher have to check their barred status, if he or she knows that they present no risk?
However, I repeat the assurances given by my ministerial colleague, Lord Henley in another place: supervised people who work regularly and closely with children will remain eligible for enhanced criminal record certificates, and our guidance on supervision will make it clear that it is best practice to request such a certificate when employees or volunteers are unknown to the organisation, or if checks are needed for new posts or staff moves.
It might make sense for me to talk about the Opposition’s amendment (a) to Lords amendment 48, because there is a strong link between that amendment and their amendments to Lords amendments 30 and 31. The effect of the amendment to Lords amendment 48 would be that the definition of “conviction” in the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 included a person’s inclusion on an ISA barred list. I presume that the intention is that the information should then be included on criminal record certificates.
We have debated the issue of barred list information before. The Government do not think it right to include barred list information on enhanced criminal record certificates, except for posts falling within regulated activity, and a few compelling exceptions, such as when people are applying to foster or adopt a child.
Employers in regulated activity must know about a bar because of its legal effect; otherwise, there is no need to know because it relates to a different area of work and in practice would lead to individuals being excluded from areas of work to which their bar does not apply. In most cases, the information which led to the bar will be available on an enhanced criminal record certificate. When it is not, as Lord Henley also confirmed last week in another place, we will use secondary legislation to allow the ISA to give the police the information which led to a bar so that they can disclose it on an enhanced certificate, if it is relevant to the post applied for.
Bars may apply, for example, because there is a criminal conviction, but equally a bar may apply because someone has been dismissed by their employer in respect of a particular case. In those circumstances the ISA would be able to give the police the relevant information. The police would then be able to determine, through an enhanced check, whether its disclosure was appropriate. We think that that provides an important safeguard.
Diana Johnson
With the experts at the ISA making a judgment about whether someone should have barred status, why is another layer of bureaucracy introduced by giving that information to the police to allow them to make a further judgment about whether that should be disclosed to a school, for example? Why do we not trust the ISA to make the right decision and disclose that?
James Brokenshire
This is where we differ on the appropriate way to treat the bar. We believe that if there are circumstances which would otherwise not necessarily have been disclosed for the ISA to make that judgment, it is appropriate to allow that information to be disclosed to the police and for the police to consider the application that they have received on an enhanced check and to judge whether the disclosure of those facts and circumstances is right in that case.
I appreciate that a difference exists between us. We do not see that as bureaucratic. It is about respecting the purpose of the bar and ensuring that on an enhanced check, if the ISA holds relevant information, it can be provided to the police. We have made that clear through our assurances in another place. I hope that that gives greater reassurance on a matter about which I know the hon. Lady feels strongly.
Meg Munn
I am concerned that the measure is becoming bureaucratic. We know that when systems are not clear, there is a greater likelihood that people will not follow them properly. Although the Minister may be certain in his own mind that the theoretical operation of the process is justified, is he equally certain that it will be operated in a way that does not allow information that should be shared to fall through the gaps?
James Brokenshire
We intend that the ISA should provide that information to the police, as I explained. We will be very focused on the way in which the measure is implemented to ensure that that reflects our intentions and that the police have the relevant information for an enhanced check. I recognise that there is a potential point of difference between us on this, but I hope I have explained some of the additional safeguards that we are putting in place.
From what the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North said, I do not think the other amendments are contentious. Amendments 37 and 38 to clause 77 would make it clear that the new duty on the ISA—and, in future, the disclosure and barring service—to pass barring information to the police will include passing the whole of the children’s and adults’ barred lists, as well as information about a particular person. This will ensure that the police can obtain real-time access to barring information for safeguarding purposes.
Amendment 40 to clause 79 would make changes to the proposed arrangements for the issue of a single criminal record certificate under that clause. Amendment 40 provides a facility for the Secretary of State to send to a registered body a copy of a criminal record certificate only where the registered body uses the new updating service, as introduced by clause 82, and is informed that a new certificate should be applied for—in other words, that there has been new information since the most recent certificate. If, once that new certificate has been sought, the registered body informs the Secretary of State that the individual has not sent it a copy of the new certificate within a prescribed period and requests a copy of the new certificate, the Secretary of State must comply with that request.
However, a copy of the certificate will not be sent if prescribed circumstances apply. Principally, these will be when the individual has challenged the information on the new certificate. This change will be particularly relevant to large organisations that consider certificates centrally, which will be able to advise their local branches of any issues arising.
Amendment 41 would insert a new clause into the Bill which will strengthen the current powers of the Criminal Records Bureau to refuse to register an individual or organisation as a registered body. Amendment 48 inserts a new clause that will ensure that cautions, reprimands and warnings are recorded on the police national computer in exactly the same way as convictions.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
That was a very nice introduction from the Minister. I know that he is standing in for one of his colleagues, which is always challenging. In my two proposals which have won support from Members on both sides of the House, although owing to shortness of time only the names of Opposition Members appear on the amendment paper, I seek to ensure that we achieve the whole ambition set out by the Minister—conformity with the European convention and the European directive.
Amendment (a) to Lords amendment 49 would establish a rapporteur on human trafficking, as is explicitly required by the European directive. The argument for that was best made by the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) in a debate in Westminster Hall, when he pointed out:
“One of the problems surrounding human trafficking is the lack of reliable information and data analysis permitting us to assess the scope of the problem in our country. The solution in the UK to that challenge is to establish an independent national rapporteur.”—[Official Report, 8 February 2012; Vol. 540, c. 135WH.]
Indeed, the Council of Europe convention and the EU directive are explicit on that point, requiring member states to appoint national rapporteurs or equivalent mechanisms to assess trends in human trafficking, monitor and measure the anti-trafficking activities of state institutions, gather statistics and report on their findings.
The usual response from Ministers is that the interdepartmental ministerial group on trafficking performs the role of a rapporteur, but that is not true. I used to be a member of the interdepartmental ministerial group, which in those days had better attendance than it has had recently. The body meets twice a year, and more Ministers send apologies than turn up. It does not have the one requirement of a rapporteur, which is to be independent of the Government, that it needs to be properly effective. The group has to provide information independently to Parliament, but it does not report to it. It needs to be able objectively to assess and report on the activities of the Government. The job of Ministers is not objectively to assess the Government, but to progress with the business of Government. Therefore, I think that there was a failure to include that requirement in the two welcome amendments tabled in the other place.
The other amendment I have tabled, amendment (a) to Lords amendment 50, would provide for a dedicated advocate for trafficked children, which is another requirement of the Council of Europe convention and another matter that has secured all-party backing. The amendment is modelled on one that was tabled in another place by Lord McColl, a Government Back Bencher, and supported by Cross-Bench and Conservative peers and the Archbishop of York—it had the broadest possible support. My amendment would put into effect the clear requirement in the directive and the convention that children who have been trafficked should be protected by a guardian. Lord McColl withdrew his amendment following a promise from Lord Henley, who said at the beginning of the debate that he would ask the Children’s Commissioner for England
“to review the current practical arrangements for rescued child victims of trafficking”.
He went on to say that following that review the Government would
“be in a position to come back to these matters at a later stage.” —[Official Report, House of Lords, 15 February 2012; Vol. 735, c. 848.]
I gather from the Children Commissioner’s public remarks that she is concerned about some of these policies. She said:
“A request to review care has not yet been made.”
I expect that a request has since been made. She continued:
“However, if this was received we would give it due consideration, and as a small organisation would seek assurances regarding the independence of our work and the resources that would enable us to undertake this work.”
I gather that, within the commission, one member of staff deals with child protection issues and another deals with refugee and asylum issues, so I think there is a real risk that the responsibility Lord Henley has given the organisation is simply beyond its capacity. The Children’s Commissioner is conducting an important inquiry into the sexual exploitation of children in gangs. It is an inquiry that I absolutely support and think is essential, and she is uncovering genuinely shocking information that we all want to know about and that we want the Government to know about and to act on. However, the fact that she is conducting that inquiry will make it really difficult for her to deliver on the pledge that Lord Henley made.
I would be happy not to press my amendment if the Minister gave the House an explicit assurance that he will ensure that the Children’s Commissioner has sufficient expert resources to conduct that inquiry before the end of 2012. If he gave that assurance, I would follow the lead of their lordships by not pressing the amendment to a vote, because I accept that Lord Henley was seeking to recognise the importance of the commitment and to meet the concern of their lordships, felt universally across the Chamber, about protecting victims of child trafficking.
Let us be clear that the problem with trafficked children is that, even when they are taken into the care of local authorities, they disappear. Government statistics suggest that the percentage of trafficked children who disappear has fallen from 30% to 20% but, as the number who have been found is slightly smaller than it used to be, I am not sure that we can be utterly confident in those statistics. In any case, if we are saying that one in five children in the care of local authorities disappears, we seem to have a situation that is absolutely intolerable to Members on both sides of the House.
Let us look at the legal case of one of the few child traffickers who have been convicted, Kennedy Johnson, who brought 49 Nigerian children through British airports, mainly Heathrow and Gatwick. He then targeted council care homes, which he told the trafficked children to get into. He picked girls from the care homes and pushed them into the sex trade in Britain, and also in Spain and Italy. His victims kept appearing for years after he was jailed. Barnardo’s has revealed that when some children trafficked into Britain not through airports but by people smugglers, jumped out of a lorry, they were put in supported lodgings but went missing within 24 hours. Another three children who were put into foster care vanished after several weeks. Of those disappeared children, only one has been found. The rest of them will have been prostituted, after having been taken into care in our name.
I believe that providing guardianship could more effectively protect those children. They have social workers at the moment, but that is not protecting them. Every child in care I speak with says that the problem with their social workers is that they change and do not continue. As was made clear in the amendment in the House of Lords, the proposed advocates would not have to be professional employees of local government or any other body; they could be trained volunteers or employees of charities and voluntary organisations. Children who have been victims of trafficking for sexual exploitation must have someone who is on their side.
I really hope that the Minister can give me the commitment I have requested, which is that the Children’s Commissioner will be able to conduct that work before the end of the year and that the Government will then bring forward proposals to ensure that her recommendations are put into force. That would mean that the only amendment I would have to push would be the one proposing a rapporteur on human trafficking. The interdepartmental ministerial group is a useful tool, but unfortunately few Ministers attend and no Ministers report to Parliament. I am glad that the hon. Member for Wellingborough is in his place, as he is one of the Members who have advocated this most powerfully.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
The hon. Lady is making a powerful speech, much of which I agree with. On her point about a rapporteur, I pressed for that in a Westminster Hall debate and, although we did not get the full rapporteur, the Government assured us that we would have an annual report and that it would be debated. I would like the Minister to confirm that. Otherwise, I will join the hon. Lady in the Division Lobby tonight.
Fiona Mactaggart
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that implied threat, which is at the moment rather more effective coming from his direction than from mine, but nevertheless there is support for the concept on both sides of the House. I know that the Minister is stepping into another Minister’s shoes, and I will keep talking so that he can get that note from his officials, but I believe that if we had an independent rapporteur, we could ensure that our debates about the extent and impact of human trafficking were more effective.
My biggest concern, however, is about more effective protection for children, and I really hope that the Minister will be able to reassure me on that matter.
James Brokenshire
With the leave of the House, I shall briefly respond to the hon. Lady’s two points about trafficking.
On the first point, about the requirement for a rapporteur under article 19 of the EU directive, we still take the view that the requirement can be met through the inter-departmental ministerial group, but we recognise that the group needs to be reviewed to ensure that it can perform the rapporteur function effectively, and its next meeting, in April, will do just that.
It is also important for me to make it clear that the directive does not stipulate that the national rapporteur or equivalent mechanism be independent of government, but the Government fully recognise that in signing up to the EU directive we must comply with the requirements therein.
In response to the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), I can confirm that it is intended that there will be an annual report on the group’s activities in that regard. I hope that that is helpful to him.
James Brokenshire
Unfortunately, the second point is outside my gift and within that of the business managers, but I certainly assure my hon. Friend about the publication of the report, and I hope that my comments on the rapporteur function are helpful.
Secondly, on the hon. Lady’s point about the assurance made by my noble Friend Lord Henley in the other place, the Government intend that we should ask the Children’s Commissioner for England to help to identify where improvements can be made to the practical care arrangements for trafficked children in the way that the hon. Lady highlighted.
I pay tribute to the work of the Children’s Commissioner. The hon. Lady highlighted the work on sexual exploitation, and I know about the very important review that the commissioner is undertaking. I had the privilege to discuss the issue with her at the start of her report, when I had ministerial responsibility for policy on the sexual exploitation of children, and I for one underline her comments on what I am sure will be an extremely important and valuable report. In the context of my noble Friend’s assurance in the other place, therefore, what I can say is that the issue is being considered extremely carefully, and discussions are under way on the scope and time scale of the review, but at this stage I am unable to give the hon. Lady the complete assurance that she looks for in the second of her two amendments. The matter is being looked at extremely carefully and closely in order to give effect to the statements that my noble Friend made in recognising the importance that we attach to receiving such input from the Children’s Commissioner.
Keith Vaz
Will the Minister respond to my hon. Friend’s excellent point about the appointment of guardians? It was an excellent point that reflects the recommendations of the Home Affairs Committee when we produced our major report two years ago on human trafficking. The appointment of a guardian would provide the best possible protection for such children in care.
James Brokenshire
The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and for the reason he cites we asked the Children’s Commissioner to review the practical care arrangements for trafficked children. We said that the right step at this stage was to seek that input, rather than to seek to legislate, recognising equally that several local authorities are already undertaking some very good practice.
I recognise that, in respect of the hon. Lady’s amendments, that might not be sufficient, but it was important that I respond and set out those points to the House this evening.
Question put, That amendment (a) to Lords amendment 30 be made.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I should inform the House that Lords amendment 145 should refer to line 12 of the title, which is the last but one line.
The Deputy Speaker put the Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83F).
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83H), That a Committee be appointed to draw up the Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments 16, 17 and 18;
That James Brokenshire, James Duddridge, Diana Johnson, Mark Tami and Tom Brake be members of the Committee;
That James Brokenshire be the Chair of the Committee;
That three be the quorum of the Committee;
That the Committee do withdraw immediately.— (Mr Dunne.)
Question agreed to.
Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be reported and communicated to the Lords.
National Policy Statement (Waste Water)
(12 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I beg to move,
That this House takes note of and approves the National Policy Statement for Waste Water, which was laid before this House on 9 February.
The waste water national policy statement sets out Government policy for the provision of waste water infrastructure of national significance in England. It will be used from this April by the Planning Inspectorate, as the examining body, and by the Secretary of State, as the decision maker, as the primary basis for making decisions on development consent for nationally significant infrastructure projects.
Consultation on the waste water national policy statement took place between November 2010 and February 2011. At the same time, it was subject to parliamentary scrutiny. The Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs undertook scrutiny for the House by holding oral hearings and taking written evidence. It published a report of its findings in April 2011, with 19 recommendations and conclusions, to which the Government responded in February 2012.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Select Committee, nobly and expertly chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), for its hard work and for its determination to get to grips with a subject area that was new to some Committee members and, at the time when I gave evidence, relatively new to me. I am grateful to the Committee for scrutinising the national policy statement in a relatively short period. I hope that it can see that its contribution has helped to refine and improve the document before the House.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
The Minister is being his usual modest self in saying that he was not au fait with the subject. He is now up to his knees, if not his waist, in the subject, having dealt with the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill last week and in introducing this debate. I believe that the Select Committee had some doubt about major projects being included in the NPS. For the avoidance of doubt, are the Government unshaken in their view that projects such as the Thames tunnel and Deephams sewage works should be included in the NPS? Whatever the final decision on the route and the detail, it is important to be clear—[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I will make the judgments about the length of interventions, thank you. We want short interventions. I presume that the hon. Gentleman has got to the end of his.
Richard Benyon
I think I got the gist of it. I will come on to cover the key points that were made by the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee and to explain what the waste water national policy statement is. I think that I will address the hon. Gentleman’s points, but I am happy to let him intervene again.
In laying the waste water national policy statement before the House for approval and in having this debate, we are meeting a Government commitment to mirror the new requirements of the Planning Act 2008 that will be brought into effect next month under the Localism Act 2011. Those procedures are intended to make national policy statements more democratically accountable to Parliament.
The Government are committed to making the planning system more open, transparent and fast, and to ensuring that all those who want to get involved in the process can do so, whether it relates to an application to extend a property or to a project of national significance, such as the Thames tunnel. The abolition of the Infrastructure Planning Commission brings democratic accountability back into the determination of nationally significant infrastructure projects by giving decision-making powers back to Ministers, who are answerable to Parliament. Ministers will also have regard to recommendations made by the Planning Inspectorate.
National policy statements are a key component of a more open and accountable planning system. They will set out Government policy clearly on particular types of infrastructure of national significance, having been subject in draft form to both formal consultation and parliamentary scrutiny. National policy statements provide a framework for preparing, considering and deciding development consent applications. This national policy statement is therefore primarily for planning purposes and does not claim to be a complete statement of Government policy on waste water.
Effective waste water infrastructure is vital, because without suitable treatment, the waste water we produce every day would damage the water environment and create problems for public health, water resources and wildlife. The proper collection, treatment and discharge of waste water, and the correct disposal of the resulting sludge, helps to protect, maintain and improve water quality in the UK.
The criterion that we have used in the national policy statement for the demonstration of the need for nationally significant infrastructure projects is that the projects have been included in the Environment Agency’s national environment programme. The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee recommended that that issue needed to be clarified and I believe that our approach now addresses its concerns.
In addition to establishing the need for waste water infrastructure, our national policy statement sets out impacts that will be relevant for any waste water infrastructure, including details on mitigating adverse impacts. Those are issues that the Planning Inspectorate and Ministers will have to have regard to when examining and determining applications.
The national policy statement does not describe how any waste water projects of national significance should be developed. I think that this addresses in part the point made by the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter). How such projects are developed is up to the project promoter before they place an application for development consent, which from April this year will go to the Planning Inspectorate.
The waste water national policy statement details two proposed projects of national significance: the sewage treatment works scheme at Deephams in north-east London and the Thames tunnel. The justification for both developments and the consideration of alternatives to the Thames tunnel are fully explained in the document.
Currently, only the proposed upgrade of the Deephams sewage treatment works can be considered a potential nationally significant infrastructure project, as it meets the criteria in the Planning Act 2008 for waste water treatment facilities serving a population equivalent of 500,000 people. We will shortly lay a draft order before Parliament for its approval, to amend section 14 of that Act to enable a waste water transfer and storage project such as the Thames tunnel to be classed as a nationally significant infrastructure project.
London’s sewerage is under considerable pressure, due to a system that is close to capacity, changing land use in London and population expansion. That leads to frequent spills of untreated waste water containing sewage into the tidal reaches of the Thames, which has a negative impact on its water quality. Resolving that problem has been the subject of extensive and comprehensive studies, including the consideration of a wide range of alternative solutions, for more than a decade. As a result, the Government are satisfied that the development of the Thames tunnel, when compared with the alternatives, is the most cost-effective and timely solution to the problem of untreated sewage discharging into the River Thames. That is demonstrated in the waste water national policy statement.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
One of the arguments that the Minister has just made is that the proposed tunnel is the most cost-effective way of dealing with the problems in the Thames. Can he point me to any cost-benefit analysis that has happened in the last couple of years, since the initial study was made in 2006 and since the cost of the project has risen from £1.7 billion or thereabouts to £4.1 billion?
Richard Benyon
Like my right hon. Friend, I am concerned about the cost of the project. That is why my Department has instructed Ernst and Young to advise it in detail on the cost-benefit analyses that have been carried out to date, recognising, of course, that not far off a quarter of the estimated price is a contingency. It is important that throughout the process we are open about the figures that are arrived at. These matters concern not just his constituents and those of other London Members but 144 Members whose constituents pay Thames Water bills, of whom I am one.
I can assure my right hon. Friend that, as I said in last week’s debate, Ministers remain healthily sceptical about the cost of the project. We want to ensure that it provides value for money, and I am happy to tell him that cost-benefit analysis will be an ongoing process. I assure him that the alternatives that we have examined, which may be more attractive on the face of it, such as retrofitting sustainable urban drainage systems across London or separating clean water from dirty, cannot compare favourably with the cost of the tunnel. Indeed, one of the options that I have seen would come in at somewhere between three and four times the cost of the Thames tunnel scheme. I take the matter very seriously and will be happy to keep him informed of our progress.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
One concern about both the development at Deephams and the Thames tunnel is the role of Ofwat. There is concern that Ofwat’s attention may be somewhat too concentrated on the Thames tunnel, for all the good reasons that we have discussed, and that it may not give sufficient priority to Deephams. Can the Minister reassure us that that will not be allowed to happen?
Richard Benyon
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that that is a matter of great importance to Ofwat. It has agreed funding to progress the Deephams upgrade, which will increase treatment capacity to accommodate the expected growth. I am convinced that Ofwat is taking the project seriously, but I am happy to write to him with more details. I think it would strenuously deny that it is looking myopically at the Thames tunnel, to the exclusion of Deephams. Of course, it is perfectly in order for him to contact Ofwat, because it is the independent economic regulator of these matters.
We made statements to the House about the Thames tunnel in November 2011, accompanied by documents setting out what we believe is the irrefutable case that it is the correct scheme for our capital city. To address the hon. Gentleman’s concern, I point out that although improvements to the Deephams sewage treatment works may have received less public attention over the years, they are on a large scale. The current site covers about 30 hectares and is the ninth largest sewage treatment works in England.
The improvements are essential to ensure that environmental quality standards in the waterways into which the treatment works discharge meet European and national standards. As the developer, Thames Water, is still evaluating the site and treatment options prior to selecting a preferred option for development, the waste water national policy statement does not consider alternative options. It will be for Thames Water to justify its preferred option in its development consent application.
The national policy statement, as with planning policy documents in general, does not prescribe the use of specific technologies. That is to ensure that developers are not fettered by the Government from taking account of future technological advancements. It is up to the developer to justify in its application its preferred treatment option, including any options it has considered and ruled out.
Although the national policy statement details two potential nationally significant infrastructure projects, may I stress that we are not here to debate how those schemes may be delivered? Our purpose is to discuss whether the national policy statement fulfils its requirements under the 2008 Act, and therefore whether it is fit for purpose. Designation of this national policy statement is not the last opportunity for people to have their say on development consent applications for waste water infrastructure of national importance. Developers must consult local communities before submitting an application to the Planning Inspectorate, and people will have the chance to have their say during the examination by registering and making representations to the Planning Inspectorate.
The waste water national policy statement is critical in helping to deliver important infrastructure developments and in ensuring that the right framework is used in the consideration of development consent applications. I strongly believe that the waste water national policy statement provides robust justification for the new infrastructure proposed. I welcome the debate and look forward to responding, with the leave of the House, to the points raised in it.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
I note that debates in the House on waste water are rather like the No. 159 bus that serves the House—you wait for ever for one, then two come along at once. However, I welcome this debate on the national policy statement, as well as the statement itself.
Much of the interest in the debate will be generated by specific nationally significant infrastructure projects, such as Deephams, which is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr Love), and the Thames tunnel. Labour supports the Thames tunnel project. In government, we foresaw the need for the tunnel and established both the commission and the enabling legislation.
London’s sewers carry both raw sewage and rain water and were designed for 4 million inhabitants. There are now 8 million inhabitants, meaning that even small amounts of rain can cause massive amounts of untreated sewage to be discharged into the Thames. That happens once a week on average, and it kills wildlife, damages the health of river users and will in time trigger significant daily fines from the European Commission. We must comply with the urban waste water treatment directive. The project tackles that by collecting the overflow in a giant tunnel bored below London and processing the waste in Beckton sewage works. That should mean that discharges occur only a few times a year, and that they are much less harmful.
Projected costs have risen, however, and time scales have begun to stretch. The Government need to show leadership and make a clear commitment to the project to ensure that the right vehicle for managing and delivering it is put in place. We remain unconvinced by alternative solutions to the problems of London’s sewage discharge, many of which, sadly, are more about local politics than about long-term planning. The consultation process is vital to ensuring that sites are placed correctly and properly integrated into the environment. MPs will rightly want to represent the views of their local communities in that process.
There are several hurdles to clear, not least the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, who has an effective veto over the tunnel. The support of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs alone will be insufficient. Last week in the House, I questioned the Minister on the nature of the decision-making process. I expressed concern that the joint decision-making process was an administrative one and not a legal one, and asked for clarification. He replied:
“The Secretaries of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and for Communities and Local Government will jointly take decisions on water and waste water applications. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government will take the lead on considering the Planning Inspectorate’s recommendations. My officials are due to meet his officials shortly to agree the process”.—[Official Report, 12 March 2012; Vol. 542, c. 318.]
Despite the Minister’s assurances, this evening’s debate is the last opportunity for Parliament to express its view of the appropriateness of the Thames tunnel project, so let me put it on the record that I am disappointed that the decision-making process giving the green light to the tunnel is yet to be decided, and that it will not be decided before Parliament has exhausted its scrutiny of whether the Government should be given the green light to go ahead. As we have seen recently in the internal divisions over planning reform and weekly bin collections, every time the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs goes head to head with the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, it comes off worse.
In 2001, the independent Thames tideway strategic study was set up to consider the problem of London’s excessive sewage discharge and to come up with a solution. In 2005, the study concluded that improvements to existing treatment works and a tunnel to intercept the combined sewage overflows were the best solution. In 2007, we determined that it was appropriate for Thames Water to make provision for the design, construction and maintenance of such a scheme; and the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 provided for infrastructure regulation to create the framework for the tendering, designation and building of such a project.
In addition to the primary environmental benefits of the Thames tunnel, we saw it as an opportunity to create more than 4,000 direct jobs, expand apprenticeships and regenerate London. Tory-led Hammersmith and Fulham council has co-ordinated much of the opposition to the Thames tunnel plans. Most recently, it established a commission with four other councils to examine the project. Essentially, it proposed a combination of a much shorter tunnel, building more local sewage works, greater separation of foul sewage and rain water, and the installation of sustainable urban drainage.
Some of those would be welcome complementary projects, but we agree with the Government that pursuing the alternative route is a distraction that could cause far greater disruption and costs, and ultimately prove to be ineffectual. Supporters of the alternative approach would have preferred to fight the battle over whether the tunnel should be built at all, and with the commencement of the next-stage consultation, the passing of last week’s Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill and tonight’s national policy statement debate, attention should now be focused on getting the specifics right: route and site selection, the delivery vehicle and the finances.
I want to touch briefly on Deephams, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton. I have taken a particular interest in this project because treated effluent from Deephams discharges into Salmon’s brook, a tributary of the River Lee, whose source, as we all know, is the picturesque hamlet of Luton. Again, we accept the need for this upgrade work to go ahead. Deephams serves nearly 1 million residents and is already undergoing a £50 million programme of improvement works to deal with excess storm water inflows. Nevertheless, improving water quality and expanding capacity to meet the needs of a growing population will require further work.
The Government should express their view on whether it is better to rebuild the plant in the existing urban area, as congested as it is, than to rebuild on a new site. We know that if relocation is the preferred option, effluent will need to be moved from the existing site footprint for cleaning and then returned for discharge. I therefore welcome what I understand to be the Minister’s intention to designate Deephams as a nationally significant infrastructure project, as the Thames tunnel was late last year. That is what I understood him to say, but I am sure that he will be able to clarify when he sums up.
The process that we initiated in government of introducing national policy statements in draft form, with the intention that they be scrutinised by the relevant Select Committees and the public is, I believe, showing dividends. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh)—I note that we are increasingly in agreement on such matters—for her work chairing the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee and for the recommendations of her Committee. I give the Government credit for incorporating many of those recommendations into the final document.
We completely agree with the Committee’s view that greater attention should be given to—SUDS—sustainable drainage systems as measures complementary to large infrastructure projects. In the case of the Thames tunnel, this can help to ensure that the effectiveness of the tunnel is not reduced with climate change and that we do not end up in 50 to 100 years’ time having to construct a second tunnel.
Measures to reduce the amount of water passing through drains and into the Thames can be implemented at neighbourhood or district level. We encourage councils across London not only to provide information and education on reducing water consumption through rain water harvesting and water recycling, but to lead by example. Education should focus on encouraging people to “wetrofit” their homes, with fittings such as low or dual-flush toilets, water-efficient shower heads and tap flow regulators. Introducing grey water recycling in new-build properties and renovations could allow bath and basin water to be cleaned and reused. External features for rain water harvesting should also play an essential role.
The Government have had much to say about their green deal programme at the Department of Energy and Climate Change, but little assistance is being extended to householders looking to purchase green roofs, water butts or downspouts to collect rain water that otherwise would go into our sewers, even though the advantages are obvious, with residents enjoying a notable reduction in their water bills and the sewerage system having to manage a lower volume of waste water. Over time, local authorities and the Highways Agency should replace hard, non-permeable surfaces with porous materials on pavements and public footpaths; home owners, too, should be encouraged to consider such measures. I do not underestimate the challenge that SUDS present to the status quo. Every year in London alone some 3,000 hectares of private domestic gardens are paved over—the equivalent of 2.5 Hyde parks. Such complementary measures should be part of a rolling programme, and we will return to them in the comprehensive water Bill, a draft of which the Minister promises in the forthcoming Session of Parliament.
On the wider objectives of the national policy statement, we welcome the commitment to sustainable development. Infrastructure should help us to live within strong environmental limits and to have due regard to environmental, social and economic considerations. However, may I press the Minister to clarify which definition of “sustainable development” he intends to use in this version of the national policy statement?
Mr Slaughter
I wonder whether I might put to my hon. Friend the question I put to the Minister, but did not get an answer to—although perhaps the Minister, who I think agrees with the position I described, might deal with it when summing up. This is something of a hybrid NPS, because although it deals with the general principles, as my hon. Friend says, it also deals with specific projects. Is it his view—as I think it is the Minister’s—that it is appropriate to have major projects such as the Thames tunnel in addition to general principles in the NPS?
Gavin Shuker
I completely agree with my hon. Friend that it is appropriate to recognise major, nationally significant infrastructure proposals in the draft of the document. It is important to note that the document will be revised over a cycle of every five or so years, and rightly so. It is also important to note that the Chair of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs rightly proposed an additional appendix referring specifically to the two nationally significant infrastructure proposals in the document, for greater clarity and to ensure that that can be addressed appropriately by Ministers. I therefore agree with my hon. Friend’s point, and I am sure that the Minister will clarify the position in due course.
Returning to the broader themes of the policy statement, on public health and environmental improvement, we continue to support efforts to comply with the urban waste water treatment directive, and we appreciate how this is reflected in the policy statement. Improving water quality in the natural environment and meeting our international obligations are, of course, essential. In that vein, I am a little disappointed that there was not more in the water White Paper on the quality of water and waste water. We know that major projects will need to go ahead—not least the two that I have already mentioned—to achieve that objective, and I am assured that the objective in the NPS will be sufficient to ensure that those projects go ahead.
According to the waste water policy statement, reducing water consumption is another of the Government’s key objectives and a major part of their plan. We know about the benefits of reducing water consumption, and not just for water treatment. Much of England will be subject to water restrictions from 5 April, as drought conditions develop. Although we agree on the importance of the long-term reforms envisaged in the water White Paper—competition for non-household customers to drive water efficiency innovation—we are worried by the lack of deep thought on how to reduce per capita water usage.
In some parts of the advanced world, individual residents get by on just 75 litres per day, but in the UK, household water consumption has grown since the 1950s to around 150 litres per person per day. There is also still significant variation between different water companies. We therefore call for more action, including the publishing of the so-called missing chapter of the water White Paper, to ensure that water efficiency measures are taken seriously and that Government actions and programmes best reflect the guidance, so that not everyone is subject to restrictions on water use when there is enough water to go round in some regions.
On climate change mitigation and adaptation, we know that climate change will require some of our water treatment systems to take far greater volumes of waste and storm water, as well as require our water industry to reduce its emissions. By 2050, the industry—which already accounts for about 2% of our nation’s carbon footprint—will need to have contributed significantly to the 80% reduction in emissions required by the Climate Change Act 2008. At present, there is a tension between higher standards for waste water, often requiring higher levels of energy consumption, and the requirement to reduce the draw on our national grid. There is plenty of space for innovation, and a need for far more research on efficiency and devising new processes for raising standards of waste water. To help with this, we call on the Government to publish a road map, as they have with the motor industry, to sketch out a path to a low-carbon waste water industry.
The principle of the waste hierarchy should of course apply to any project under the national policy statement; the document refers to that directly. In that regard, more could be done to encourage new processes that harness the organic value of effluent. Will the Minister outline what discussions he has had with his counterparts at the Department of Energy and Climate Change and at Ofwat to ensure that the energy recovery process is maximised through the implementation of this document? We welcome this national policy statement, and we will not oppose the motion tonight.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker). I, too, welcome the debate this evening and the waste water national policy statement. In these debates, I feel as though I have died and gone to heaven when the Minister and the Opposition spokesman both say what a good piece of work the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee has done. It was a privilege to carry out such a substantial body of work on the national policy statement, and we took our responsibilities seriously. I am grateful to the Committee, to those who advised us and to those who gave evidence.
I shall give the House some background information. In April 2011, the Committee published the report on our inquiry into the Department’s draft waste water national policy statement, in which we made a number of recommendations for what we viewed as the improvement of the NPS. Some time later, on 9 February this year, the Government published their response to the Committee’s report and laid a revised version of the NPS before the House. I am delighted that the Government have been able to find time for this debate tonight.
The hon. Member for Luton South mentioned the fact that we had to comply with, among other things, the European urban waste water treatment directive. May I just say, as a personal comment, that I hope that we can learn from this whole exercise—and from the essence of the Macdonald review of regulations from Europe—and that we must engage at the earliest possible stage and in the most constructive, positive manner? It will be a great step forward if we can learn from this exercise.
As the Minister said earlier, the national policy statement is critical to the new planning system. It will help developers to bring forward waste water projects of national significance without facing unnecessary delays, while ensuring that local people have an opportunity to have their say about how their communities are developed and about how the decisions are made in an accountable way by elected Ministers.
Following on from the Minister’s comments, I would be interested to know whether at this stage he has had sight of the final version of the national planning policy framework, which I understand may be revealed to the world at large later this week. Is he in a position to tell us this evening, given that this issue was raised in our evidence sessions, what the impact will be on the waste water national policy statement and the two projects falling under it?
The Minister referred to the application for planning consents. He may be interested to know that some time, regrettably, after we had taken evidence and reported, we were still receiving representations from those who had not realised that the scrutiny was taking place in the EFRA Committee. The matter of how to bring such scrutiny to the attention of the wider community is important if this were to arise again, as I understand it might if the Minister proceeds with his review. I shall return to that later.
The Committee was pleased to have the opportunity to scrutinise the draft water national policy statement last year, and we welcome the Government’s response. Although, as I alluded, it took the Department some time to publish the revised version, we were pleased that the time was used well to improve the national policy statement by incorporating many of our recommended changes. We believe that the now revised PPS broadly does a good job in setting out the framework for decision makers. Given the importance of the issue, however, we welcome the Government’s debate on it today.
Many other hon. Members will have issues to raise, particularly those whose constituencies are in the catchment area for the billing of the project, such as my hon. Friend the Minister, and perhaps also those whose constituencies lie along its route. I shall focus my remarks both on areas where the Government have incorporated our comments and on those where they did not.
The Government’s response sets out a number of areas in respect of which DEFRA has accepted the recommendations in the Committee’s report and amended the NPS consequentially. On the definition of need, I welcome the fact that in the revised NPS, the inclusion of a project in Ofwat’s asset management plan has been removed, in line with the Committee’s recommendation, as a criterion of proof of a project’s need. It was not logical to use that as a basis of proof, because its inclusion did not in itself mean that Ofwat had approved the individual plan for how it should be carried out. Indeed, Ofwat’s evidence on how it would review and consider each plan was quite compelling, so the removal of the asset management plan is a sensible approach, with retention of inclusion in the Environment Agency’s national environment plan as proof of a project’s need providing a workable criterion. I thus welcome the Minister’s comments this evening.
Some of the site-specific material in the NPS has been moved to an annexe, which is part of the document that is not to be relied on by the decision maker in reaching a decision on a project. That meets to some extent the Committee’s criticism about the inclusion of weak material on the Thames tunnel and Deephams sewage treatment works in the main NPS. In our view, the remaining site-specific sections have been improved, and the Committee welcomes these amendments because the focus of the NPS should be on establishing generic criteria that are applicable to any project falling within the threshold of a nationally significant infrastructure project set out in the Planning Act 2008, as amended.
As regards the inclusion of the Thames tunnel in the nationally significant infrastructure project planning regime, may I say that the Government have also moved to change the Planning Act definitions, as recommended by the Committee, to include sewage transfers and storage projects such as the Thames tunnel within the process for deciding applications of nationally significant infrastructure projects? We welcome that move, which is in the intended spirit of the Planning Act regime and reflects the inclusion of the Thames tunnel in the Government’s major infrastructure plans. The inclusion of sewage transfer and storage projects of a significant size, such as the Thames tunnel project, is clearly both logical and pragmatic.
Recommendation 9 deals with the approval of costs. The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) mentioned the importance of keeping the costs of the Thames tunnel under scrutiny, and it is vital for Ofwat to be rigorous in scrutinising those costs, which, according to the evidence given to our Committee, are escalating. The Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill, which we debated last week, contains necessary provisions enabling Thames Water to ensure that it can finance the project in the most cost-effective manner, but I should welcome an assurance from the Minister about the intended use of those powers, and a reassurance for Thames Water customers that the costs will not continue to increase. It would be helpful if he also told us how Ofwat has strengthened its in-house capacity to focus on the Thames tunnel, and what advice the company is receiving on how to limit the cost of the projects referred to in the Government’s response to our report.
I am sure that Members will not be disappointed if I now turn to my personal pet subject, sustainable drainage. In recommendation 6, we
“recommend that Defra undertakes within 12 months a full assessment of the potential national impact of widespread adoption of SUDs”
—sustainable drainage systems—
“and water efficiency programmes for existing as well as new housing stock on future waste water infrastructure needs and that this be taken into account in any future revisions of the Waste Water NPS.”
I realise that there are a number of strands in DEFRA’s work on sustainable drainage, but it is disappointing that the water White Paper does not focus more on SUDS, and that more progress has not been made towards an agreement on funding for them. According to the Government’s response,
“The Planning Act allows for the partial or full review of an NPS. We aim to review the Waste Water NPS in five years time”
—perhaps the Minister will confirm that that is the case—
“or before that time should there be a significant need to do so.”
Obviously, my question is what would constitute a significant need. The Government’s response continues:
“This will take account of any changes to appropriate policy since the development of the original Waste Water NPS.”
I am not disagreeing with the Minister, but we need more information this evening.
The Government’s response also refers to schedule 3 to the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, a large part of which has still to come into effect. They say
“We intend to implement Schedule 3 as soon as possible and dates are being explored”
—this is exciting stuff, Mr Deputy Speaker—
“in the consultation on implementation of Schedule 3 which we launched on 20 December. The Act also requires local authorities to adopt those sustainable drainage systems which serve more than one property. In the short term”
—it must be quite a short term, Mr Deputy Speaker—
“Defra will fund the maintenance of adopted sustainable drainage systems whilst we explore long-term funding options.”
Will the Minister tell us what the procedure and timetable will be for the adoption—finally—of sustainable drainage systems? The last Government could have done that before the general election, but they chose not to. We are now approaching the anniversary of that election, and I think that the House is growing impatient. I certainly am. When will we have the SUDs? They are important. The House wants to be able to establish whether the Government have explored all the alternatives.
I hope the Minister will respond—in his usual, inimitable, charming way—to the points raised. In respect of the national policy statement, if we are truly signed up to sustainable development, the environment and the needs of local communities must not be sacrificed. The Committee commends the national policy statement and is glad that the Government welcome some of its proposals. However, we are disappointed that they disagree with certain measures.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the Minister for ensuring that we have this debate, especially as I had begun to lose faith that we would have an opportunity to discuss the national policy statement. Those who were present for the last debate will be unsurprised to learn that I propose to focus my remarks on the Deephams works in my constituency. I welcome the Minister’s comments on Deephams, and I want to press for a little more reassurance.
Let me give some background on Deephams. The existing infrastructure is exhausted. There has been little investment in recent years, although there is now to be an investment of £50 million, which is very welcome. Deephams is a constrained site, but that was not always the case. Many years ago, when the Lee valley was a leafy area, none of my constituents lived particularly close to Deephams, and most of them barely knew that it was there. In fact, it could be said that they did not really care, but that has changed in the last 10 years.
Housing now abuts the very edge of Deephams, and there are also adjacent industrial sites. It is now very much part of my constituency. Statutory nuisance is a major, and continuing, issue, and I have had many an argument with both constituents and Thames Water about it. Because some of my constituents now live close to the site, they are very concerned. We must address this issue.
The national policy statement attempts to provide reassurance. I was disappointed that the Select Committee’s recommendations were not followed, but I understand the reasons for that. I have now been somewhat reassured, and welcome some of the national policy statement recommendations. As the Minister said in his opening remarks, there is no longer a preferred option for redevelopment, so a range of options for Deephams can be considered. That is important. Fresh priority has also been given to design issues. That will be important in the context of Deephams, because of the constrained nature of the site. The Minister mentioned greater flexibility, too. Over the period in question, the number of people that the sludge works will serve will increase from about 800,000 to about 1 million.
The national policy statement contains comments on infrastructure. It says the infrastructure at Deephams is out of date and needs to be replaced. I want to add to what is contained in the national policy statement, and seek reassurance on two issues: the central role of Ofwat, and how we can best ensure that the fact that the site at Deephams is constrained does not prove to be an insurmountable difficulty.
First, let me tackle the issue of Ofwat. As everyone in tonight’s debate has recognised, it has a critical role to play in infrastructure investment. However, according to the Government’s water White Paper, Ofwat needs to be more competitive, less bureaucratic and much more flexible in financing infrastructure. Indeed, I understand that that will form a core part of the water Bill that will come before the House in the next Session. That new regime will not come in until after the next general election, but the need to meet EU water improvement standards means that Deephams has to be operational by 2017. So the first issue that I would like the Minister to talk about is: how we can achieve the benefits that the national policy statement mentions—innovation, flexibility and greater freedom in terms of infrastructure investment —from an unreformed Ofwat? What can we do to make sure that Ofwat is adequate for the task?
The second issue to address is the constrained nature of the Deephams site, and I wish to say three things about that. First, a higher level of water treatment must be achieved in a smaller area, as space is very limited at Deephams. Secondly, it is possible to retrofit the installation of the new facilities into the existing tanks—indeed, new technology is well suited to that retrofit capacity. Thirdly, we must minimise the statutory nuisance to adjoining residents. That is a continuing problem that will not go away, and it needs to be addressed.
We can best try to answer all three issues in relation to this site by using new technology. Using new technology will give us the additional benefit of future-proofing for likely required improvements in water quality over the extended life of the new Deephams, and it will also help to deal with further population increases—it is suggested that London’s population will increase significantly over the next 25 years—and, of course, climate change. If we are to future-proof for all three of those, technology will be very important. However, it must be tried-and-tested technology, and it must avoid the danger of being out of date even before Deephams is up and running.
May I conclude my remarks by asking the Minister to give a little further reassurance to my constituents and to the House that the role of Ofwat will enable the recommendations of the national policy statement to happen? May I also ask what role new technology will play in achieving our ambitions for Deephams? In such a constrained site, it seems to be the only solution that will be adequate for the task of making Deephams the sort of 21st century facility for which we are all hoping.
Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
I am one of 144 Members of Parliament in the Thames Water area directly affected by the issue of the Thames tunnel, and I hope that both the Minister and the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) will forgive me if I restrict my comments to the area that is close to my heart.
It is good to have consensus at times in politics and to be able to discuss issues in a measured way. One of the difficulties with the Thames tunnel is that there will be one hell of an outcry from many Thames Water customers in the years to come when they recognise the sheer cost implied by what is being put into place through this national policy statement for waste water, as it affects not only the London area, but the Thames Water area. Those living in the centre of London will see the tunnel being constructed, as I am sure it will be in the years to come, and will recognise that that does not come entirely cost free. I suspect that Thames Water customers in the Oxfordshires and Gloucestershires of this world will put a lot more pressure on. It is, therefore, all the more important that I use this opportunity to put certain concerns about this policy statement on the record, although I do not wish to break away too far from elements of the happy consensus that we have seen tonight.
I think we all acknowledge that if the Thames tunnel goes ahead, as I confidently predict it will, it will be a nationally significant infrastructure project. It is therefore sensible to make it one in the formal sense, both in relation to the Planning Act and, as the framework suggests is needed with such projects, with the sort of national policy statement we are debating tonight. I agree with other Members that although this debate has been relatively short, this opportunity to debate such a crucial issue is welcome. The Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs certainly thought so when it examined this draft national policy statement last year, as we gathered from my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) earlier.
The Committee also signalled some concerns about the way that the document appeared to pre-empt elements of the planning process. The waste water NPS is the key document against which the planning application for the Thames tunnel will be judged. For that reason, the Committee said that it should be “a purely generic document” to prevent the justification for the Thames tunnel project from being removed from scrutiny. It also warned that although reference to specific schemes could be put in an annex to the national policy statement,
“it should be made clear that it does not constitute information to which decision makers must have regard when considering project applications.”
I fear that the Government have rejected that element of the advice. Instead, the NPS makes it clear, on page 21, that the tunnel is the “only option” and that what would be left to the Planning Inspectorate would merely be the “specific design and route”. In its response to the Select Committee report, DEFRA said the Government want to provide a “degree of certainty” to Thames Water. I do not think there is any doubt that they have been able to achieve that result.
Let us be quite clear about what the national policy statement means in practice. It means there will be no independent analysis of the very case for a tunnel. The document we are debating removes the case for the tunnel from the planning process. I think the Minister will argue that that is reasonable because the arguments have already been heard in detail—perhaps privately in his office and the offices of his predecessors—that the evidence is overwhelming and that the final NPS makes an unarguable case. If that were true, he would have a point, but the NPS is far from entirely convincing, not least because there are a number of things that one would never learn just from reading the document. In my brief contribution tonight I shall list the ones that seem the most significant, and I join the Select Committee in asking whether there really is no need for an independent assessment.
First, the tunnel will not collect 39 million tonnes of sewage. Like Thames Water, the NPS mentions 39 million cubic metres of discharge into the Thames each year. It then states that the Thames tunnel is the preferred way to address this issue. The casual reader of the document will assume that the tunnel collects 39 million tonnes of discharge, but that figure will be more than halved without the tunnel being built. The construction of the Lee tunnel and the upgrades to the sewage treatment works will prevent 21 million tonnes from entering the tidal Thames, and improvements to Mogden sewage treatment works will tackle several million more upstream.
Rather than celebrating the huge strides already being made to clean up the Thames—I am not entirely complacent about that; there should be huge strides and we should always be looking to improve the quality of water in the Thames—the NPS makes only oblique references and never entirely quantifies them in the way that I have tried to do tonight. It is worth repeating that the amount of sewage entering the Thames will fall dramatically without the Thames tunnel project. Only 18 million tonnes of discharge will be addressed by the tunnel, by no means all of which would be stopped as there would still be three large discharge events in an average year.
Unlike the publicity we have seen from Thames Water the NPS does at least describe the discharges as a mixture of “untreated sewage and rain water”, but it does not explain that the rain water accounts for more than 95% of the total. That somewhat disingenuous use of statistics has understandably misled countless members of the public and even Members of this House. In last week’s debate on the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr Offord) talked about tackling the
“39 million tonnes of effluent”—[Official Report, 14 March 2012; Vol. 542, c. 306.]
but the reality is that there are just 18 million tonnes of discharge, of which not even 1 million tonnes are effluent. Any discharge of sewage is regrettable but we should deal in facts.
Miss McIntosh
When the Committee put questions on the national policy statement to the Department, we asked particularly about the potential impact of SUDS and other rainfall harvesting. If, as my hon. Friend says, we are talking about mostly rainfall, that impact would be quite substantial.
Mark Field
I accept that there would be an impact, but the use of the word “effluent” in relation to the 39 million cubic metres gives the public and many Members of this House a somewhat misleading impression of the sheer urgency of the need to undertake the project at this time.
It has been asserted that the river has been getting better and will continue to do so, and there is no doubt about that, but a feature of debates on the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill last week and less recently was the number of hon. Members who suggested that the Thames had been getting worse, and will continue to get worse without the tunnel. The hon. Members for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) and for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) made that statement in part. That claim is not supported by the facts, as regards the immediate future; it is also probably not entirely true as regards the past and present.
I note that the Environment Agency’s website no longer hosts a press release that it issued only 17 months ago, but at that time, it went so far as to describe the Thames as
“the beauty queen of the planet’s waterways.”
That perhaps goes a little too far, even for those who have no desire whatever for a Thames tunnel-type project, but what prompted the comment was real enough: the sustained and continuing improvement of the Thames, which saw it win the international Theiss river prize for outstanding achievement in river management and restoration.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman mentioned my contribution last week. Surely there is irrefutable evidence that in the past few years, there have been significant discharges into the Thames, which have damaged the water quality. There is no getting away from that. I welcome all the improvements, including upstream, but the solution has to be a combination of rainwater harvesting, better treatment and, eventually, a Thames tunnel. It will not make the river perfect, but if we do not do all those things, the river quality will continue to deteriorate. That is not what he, I, or anyone in London wants.
Mark Field
I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point, but there is the issue of the sheer cost of the proposal, and whether we need to go for what is seen as being the only game in town, and take up the Thames Water proposal that we spend £4.1 billion—already a significant increase on the figure originally presented for this project.
It is worth saying that population growth and climate change will not reverse the improvements that have already taken place. Given that a 60% reduction in discharges is on the way, it would take something much more significant to reverse the trend. The NPS identifies two potential factors—population growth and climate change—but neither seems of any great magnitude in relation to this issue. New housing developments are already being built with SUDS and mitigation designed in, and retrofitting will slowly improve the existing housing stock. Moreover, the NPS says that more than 1 billion litres per day of sewage need in England can be saved through water efficiency, but then bizarrely ignores how that can help offset the projected changes in London’s population.
Climate change is cited as producing more “extreme rainfall events” like those of August 2004; that may have an impact, as was discussed in the exchange with the hon. Member for Islington North. That discharge of eight years ago caused the death of many thousands of fish, yet on page 18, the NPS admits that the fish deaths were caused by the Mogden sewage treatment works, which of course have nothing to do with the tunnel, and are already being upgraded. Thames Water was quoted last week as claiming that climate change will produce less rainfall and more droughts, and will require more reservoirs to be constructed, which implies less in the way of combined sewage overflow overall.
Fish kills are already being addressed. Mogden, which is well upstream of the Hammersmith pumping station, is thought to be responsible for both major fish kills mentioned in the policy statement. The other occurred last summer, near Kew. It is reasonable to suppose that the number of fish kills will be significantly lower in future without the Thames tunnel, and before possible alternatives to the tunnel are considered. Thames Water claims that the Lee tunnel will not benefit the higher reaches of the river, but Mogden demonstrates that the whole of the tidal Thames is set to get cleaner.
The tunnel will not significantly alter the appearance of the river. The natural turbidity of the Thames means that the water will never be clear. In fact, an Economics for the Environment Consultancy review of the tideway project options concluded that
“little aesthetic change in the water is to be expected”
from a tunnel. This was endorsed by the Health Protection Agency’s study in 2007, which reported:
“Shortly after discharge, floating matter disseminates relatively quickly, so the plug of sewage effluent moves unnoticed with the ebb and flood of the tide.”
No one is suggesting that sewage discharge does not matter, but it is a fact that for most people it passes unobserved. The findings of the study for the Thames tunnel make one particular and unsourced claim in the NPS seem somewhat dubious when it refers to
“large quantities of offensive solid material being…deposited on the foreshore”,
whereas the published evidence does not.
The hon. Member for Hammersmith made rather unfair sport of the views of Professor Chris Binnie in the exchange that we had last Wednesday. I shall discuss those views in a moment. Professor Binnie is an expert on water and designed the original Thames tunnel scheme, so his conclusion that only 10% of litter is sewage-derived should be heeded. It follows that if the tunnel can reduce litter deposits by some 10%, 90% of the visible rubbish that swills about the river will remain, whatever happens to the combined sewer overflows. The idea that the appearance of our improving river is causing an international
“reputational risk to the UK”
seems a little far-fetched, and I suspect that a 10% reduction along the lines that I have set out would do little to help.
The health benefits are real, but limited. Again, there must be a balance, given the cost of the project. Recreational users of the Thames would undoubtedly benefit from the tunnel, if not quite as much as is sometimes thought. For example, although gastric infection in rowers runs at 13 cases per thousand rowers per year, that is far lower than the rate in the general population, which is 190 cases per thousand. Likewise, the actor David Walliams’s swim is much touted, but he fell ill long before reaching the tidal stretches of the River Thames.
The Environment Agency has too little regard for the cost. The NPS highlights the curious role that has been given to the Environment Agency, whose sole concern is the environmental impact of the tunnel, with no attempt to weigh that impact against the rising cost. Apparently, the Government
“considers that the need…will have been demonstrated if the Environment Agency has concluded that the project is necessary for environmental reasons”.
That is almost a blank cheque for what constitutes environmental necessity. The agency is understandably fond of large-scale projects. Despite the claim to a purely environmental rationale, however, when pressed on the justification for a £4 billion tunnel in a climate of austerity, when discharges will more than halve anyway, both the Environment Agency and Thames Water hide behind legal arguments about the European directive.
The directive overrides many of the environmental assessments. The NPS admits that
“the Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive is the initial driver for the Thames Tunnel.”
In practice, compliance rather than the environment is both the root cause and the benchmark, as this stifles concerns about value. Terms such as “unacceptable” and “necessary” are used ambiguously in both the NPS and Thames Water’s literature. They appear to make an environmental judgment but, under challenge, a legal interpretation is always offered, with dark mutterings about infraction proceedings.
No one has asked the EU. The apparent failure of any of the three parties behind this scheme to approach the Commission is staggering, particularly on the part of the Environment Agency and DEFRA. Without reference to the Commission, DEFRA has disregarded the urban waste water treatment directive’s principle of using the best technical knowledge not entailing excessive cost, and stipulated that only a collection device for combined sewer overflows meets the requirement
“to limit pollution from sewer overflows”.
It seems that the Environment Agency applies its zeal to say no discharges are acceptable, irrespective of cost. That is fine if we factor that into our thinking about that body, but the worry is that DEFRA takes that on board and then applies gold-plating by saying that no discharges are permissible under the directive, and Thames Water applies for a project to which the answer can no longer be no. The huge cost is relevant, not just for all of us who are Thames Water users, but for legal reasons. It was the legal position that prompted Professor Binnie’s reassessment of the need for the tunnel that he had initially recommended, given the work that is already under way and the lessons that have been learned from in-river bubbler systems in the seven years since he chaired the Thames tideway strategic study. His examination of the directive has led him to believe that a tunnel is unnecessary.
What Professor Binnie revealed at the meeting chaired by the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), which I think was misreported in the exchanges we heard last week, was the detail of his discussions with DEFRA’s lawyers. His view was that the increased cost of the tunnel has made it disproportionate in the sense of the directive, as exemplified by the Whitburn infraction proceedings. However, the senior DEFRA lawyer stuck relentlessly to the Department’s interpretation. I was not at the meeting, but I understand that Professor Binnie said that on legal matters he felt that ultimately he had to defer to those who ought to know. His understandable reluctance to challenge civil servants is not always shared by the rest of us, and nor should it be.
In my view, the cost-benefit analysis is deeply flawed, and there is no better example of flawed DEFRA analysis than the series of cost-benefit analyses that have accompanied the Thames tunnel project. When the cost was initially touted as £1.7 billion, the benefits were judged to be worth around £1.7 billion. Now that the cost has risen to £4.1 billion, with the Lee tunnel and sewage treatment works upgrades already under way, hey presto, the benefits have been judged to have risen to around £4.1 billion. It is either a near miracle of fortuitous recalculation or, as those of us inclined to be more sceptical might think, a somewhat cynical sleight of hand. I think that Professor Binnie is in no doubt about this non-legal point. Using Treasury green book rules and standard, quality-adjusted life year metrics, he calculated the health benefits of the tunnel to be about £2 billion. The NPS means that no independent examination of DEFRA’s figures will take place.
There are no net economic benefits. The economic case for the tunnel on the basis of job creation is starting to be talked up, and I understand that a report on that by Thames Water is imminent. The Minister described the estimated 4,200 jobs only last Wednesday as
“a big win for London”.—[Official Report, 14 March 2012; Vol. 542, c. 330.]
Unlike other infrastructure projects, however, the tunnel will do relatively little for the economy once it is complete. Even the boring machines are being bought from Germany —as we speak, the same applies to Crossrail. Although the temporary creation of construction jobs will have some benefit, it would be considerably cheaper to pay 4,000 people an MP’s salary for the duration of the project, and considerably better value to build something else, whether in London or not. I am afraid that the lasting economic impact of the tunnel will be the £80 a year reduction in the disposable income of each and every Thames Water customer for decades to come.
I fear that the poorest will be hardest hit, and this is the debate we will be having in this House in four or five years’ time. We will be talking about those bills, and Thames Water customers will be in the position South West Water customers were in last week when we debated the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill. Sewerage bills are regressive. We have only just debated the pernicious effect of such bills in the south-west, and the rising cost of energy is a cause of great concern across the House. It is not good enough for Thames Water to defend this simply by saying that water bills will rise only towards the average. Together, London and the wider Thames Water sewerage area already have the highest living costs in the country and the pinch will be felt.
There are alternatives, depending on the question. Bubblers are dismissed by the NPS as they are
“not considered to be a sustainable or complete solution in the long-term.”
Of course, the tunnel is not a complete solution, as there would still be discharges—no one disputes that for one minute. The notion of sustainability in the NPS leans heavily on the assumptions about population growth and climate change to which I have already referred. The Cardiff harbour system shows that new options have emerged since the tunnel was first mooted almost a decade ago, including the real-time monitoring of dissolved oxygen levels. I accept that an in-river system is not perfect and would not go as far as the Thames tunnel, but it would cost a fraction of the £4.1 billion price tag now in place. Were it not for the momentum already behind the building of the tunnel and the closed institutional ranks to which I have referred, I think that such a system would be considered, and perhaps it still should be.
The NPS states, somewhat grandly:
“It is inappropriate to ‘do nothing”’
about sewage discharges, but we are not “doing nothing”; we are more than halving the problem. The phrase is redolent of the so-called politician’s fallacy: “We must do something; this is something; therefore, let’s get on and do it.” When civil servants insist once again that the gold-plated option is the only way to meet our obligations under a European directive, we are entitled—obliged, in my view—to be sceptical. When the result could allow a single utility company to profit while the rest of us are hit in the pocket, we can contemplate stronger emotions. The project cries out for proper independent scrutiny, yet the NPS prevents, I fear, any assessment through the planning process of the case for the tunnel.
I have no doubt that there is a problem with sewage discharge in the Thames. More than £1 billion is already being spent to reduce it dramatically, but the Thames tunnel will cost in excess of £4 billion, and the question is whether it represents good value for money.
I am sure that we in this House will return to this issue, but I fear that we will do so on the back of huge increases in water bills for all our constituents, and we will only wish that we had alerted ourselves to the issues now, rather than doing so, as I suspect we will, in many years to come.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
I am grateful for the opportunity to have this debate, but I am conscious that it must finish at 10 pm and that the Minister will want a few minutes to respond to the points made, so I will ensure that he has that opportunity.
I endorse much of what my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) just said. I have taken an interest in this issue throughout my time as a Member of Parliament. The story began many years ago when a European Commission directive on urban waste water treatment focused attention on the fact that the Thames was non-compliant. It set a deadline for compliance: 31 December 2000. That deadline was clearly not met. The directive required that sewage—domestic, industrial and rain water run-off—should be collected and conveyed to plants for secondary treatment, and that overflows should be reduced and measures taken to limit the pollution of the tidal Thames and of the River Lee from sewage outflows.
The other directive to which colleagues have referred is the water framework directive. Compliance with the urban waste water directive is a precondition of compliance with the water framework directive, so there is external pressure on the UK. Just as with air pollution, unless we meet the directives’ requirements, we will be liable for fines resulting from action taken in the European courts. I have never doubted that—to use the shorthand cliché that my hon. Friend just used—something needed to be done, and I have always taken the view that the presumption should be that the tunnel is the best way forward. In the evidence I submitted to Thames Water’s first consultation, I said exactly that, in my answer to the second question:
“Like the government, I work from the presumption that the tunnel project is the best way forward, but I am aware that there are still arguments that it would be better to seek Sustainable Urban Drainage Systems and I would request Thames Water to carry out a final assessment of the alternatives to a tunnel before proceeding with the tunnel option. Constituents of mine are also concerned that alternatives should be considered one last time in case they provide an environmentally preferable option.”
By that stage, the draft national policy statement had been produced, and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), the Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, for her work and that of her Committee, on which she has reported this evening. I remind the House of what the Committee, in paragraphs 63 to 66 in particular but starting in paragraph 62, wrote. In paragraph 63, the hon. Lady and her Committee make it clear that
“other witnesses considered the needs case as set out in the draft NPS to be overstated”.
Those other witnesses included the Greater London authority which, the report reminds us,
“rejected the Government’s assertion that failure to adopt the NPS would result in failure by the UK Government to meet obligations in the UWWTD”.
The report states:
“The GLA argued that not having an NPS did not mean that ‘poor decisions will be made, it just means that decisions will not have a single source of policy advice to follow’.”
Paragraph 64 begins:
“Witnesses also had reservations as to the adequacy of the draft NPS’s sections on alternatives to constructing new infrastructure”,
and London Councils’ evidence is then cited. Paragraph 65 is clear:
“The brief sections in the NPS on the replacement of the Deephams Sewage Treatment Works and the Thames Tunnel are not sufficient to prove the need for these large-scale projects, in particular the multi-billion pound Thames Tunnel project which will have impacts over a period of years on the lives and livelihoods of people living and working locally. Nor do the sections on the alternative approaches sufficiently address all of the potential options for achieving desired outcomes such as improved water quality.”
In effect, in March last year, the Select Committee said, “Slow down, be careful, remember that the evidence isn’t all in one direction.”
In paragraph 66, the Committee recommended that
“Defra include in any justification of new waste water infrastructure projects full explanation as to how they will help to meet national and European environmental requirements. The Department should also provide more detail on the potential alternative methods of achieving environmental outcomes, such as improved water quality, which new infrastructure is designed to achieve.”
The Government read that, took heed of that, and revised the structure of their policy statement. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster pointed out, the two specific projects—Deephams and the Thames tunnel—were taken into the annexe, while leaving a rewritten section, notably in chapter 2. However, they did not change the presumption that in looking at the policy we are limited in our ability to raise questions about whether the Thames tunnel as it is currently proposed is the right option for London.
I want not only to make the obvious points that my constituents have made to me, and that my hon. Friend and parliamentary neighbour has made on behalf of his constituents and others, but to suggest a way forward that tries to square the circle and help us to get off a hook that we might otherwise find ourselves on. As I have said recently in debates on this issue in other contexts, since the first round of consultations, the arguments for a review have grown, first, because the cost has grown. The Minister has been very straightforward with the House, as he should be, in saying that he is sceptical about the cost. I am glad about that. An increase from between £1 billion and £2 billion to over £4 billion is considerable, given that the bills of water rate payers will be added to in order to pay for it.
Secondly, various other commentators, including Professor Binnie, have questioned the cost-benefit analysis mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster. Whatever one thinks about its progeny, the Thames tunnel commission, on behalf of the boroughs of mixed political hue that commissioned it, made some strong points about looking at the alternative. My concern now is how we manage to reconcile those concerns with the Minister’s desire to make sure that space is given for the project to move forward. I am conscious that there is still a bit more procedural work to do in this place. Following the Localism Act 2011, we have to transfer the responsibility for major sewerage projects so that they are national infrastructure projects—I do not disagree that that should be the case—and then there is the planning process.
I would like to suggest a possible way forward. It could be argued that the reviews by Ofwat, the Selborne commission, Thames Water and others are inevitably coloured by the views of those who commissioned them—clearly, the Selborne commission must have behind it the interests of the six boroughs. I do not ask the Minister to give a definitive answer on this tonight but merely to reflect on what he has heard from around the Chamber. Before Thames Water draws up its final plans or submits any planning application, there is time in the coming months for a review panel of people who do not have a vested interest to do some urgent work and then report to those with a direct interest—Government, Parliament, the Greater London authority with its new Mayor and Assembly, and London Councils. The second consultation has just ended; I, like others, have given my evidence. We have not heard Thames Water’s response to that. There is an opportunity for a range of people to contribute before the last round of consultation by Thames Water is concluded.
There are other people who can look in from outside. The United Nations has an environmental programme office that looks at big projects around the world. The European Commission has an Environment Directorate-General. The Environment Agency clearly has a continuing interest. Of course, the Greater London authority has an interest. The Local Government Association is neutral politically, as is London Councils. The Consumer Council for Water and political parties might want to have an input. The National Audit Office might wish to have an input, because there is a major financial question about value for money—that is probably the biggest question behind all the concerns.
I will not seek to divide the House tonight. There is clearly consensus between Opposition and Government Front Benchers that the national policy statement should be approved. That follows the position of Labour Ministers who held the portfolio and it is the position of my hon. Friend the Minister and his colleagues. However, we should not go automatically from approving the statement to pressing a green button that sends us through a set of procedures whereby we cannot consider any of the factors again.
To conclude, I will put on the record the questions that I think need to be answered. I will literally list them. First, there are serious questions about what the environmental objectives are that the tunnel will achieve. Clearing up the river is fine as a general statement, but we need a bit more scientific analysis. Secondly, my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster asked why the argument appears to be about the huge amount of discharge—39 million tonnes—when that is not the correct figure any more, for reasons that we know about, and when most of the discharge is water, not sewage. That question needs to be addressed. Furthermore, of the rubbish that goes into the Thames, 90% is general litter and only 10% is sewage. Thirdly, there is a question whether the most sustainable way of dealing with drainage and sewerage in London is the largest of the tunnel options, which is a concrete tunnel. That would see us literally flushing perfectly good rain water down the drain. Lastly, I share my hon. Friend and parliamentary neighbour’s view that when the cost of the tunnel has nearly tripled from £1.7 billion to £4.1 billion, it is bizarre that the cost-benefit analysis seems to suggest that there will still be the same relative benefit.
I hope that the Minister hears our concerns. He has offered always to engage with those of us with a direct interest and whose constituents are greatly concerned. I hope that he will collaborate with those of us who want to ensure that, over the next few months, the questions are answered objectively and are given to Thames Water, the Government and the regulator before any final decisions for planning or public policy purposes are implemented. I accept that we have to cross this threshold tonight, and I will not prevent that. However, we need to know where we are going. Over the next six months, there is a huge amount of work to be done. I think that colleagues from all parts of the House and people outside the House would value that collaboration, and I hope that we can all agree that it should happen.
Richard Benyon
With the leave of the House, I will respond to the points raised in the debate. I apologise if my response is hurried and does not deal with points in the order in which they were raised.
Important points have been raised in this debate. I concede that this is a serious matter, particularly the Thames tunnel element of it. I share many of the concerns expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) and my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field). I repeat my earlier assurance to them: I do not enter this matter with blind disregard to the impact that it will have on their constituents and mine, including in the construction phase. Many hon. Members who have spoken on previous occasions are rightly concerned about the impact of the project and its construction. I assure hon. Members that I remain willing to be engaged. Let us not pretend that this is the last occasion on which this scheme or other such schemes will be debated in the House. There will be opportunities to raise these issues in the House and I remain willing to be held accountable.
Essentially, those of us in government are all laymen, unless we are lucky enough to have a specific engineering skill. I do not have banking experience or engineering experience of large projects, so I seek to get it. I am gifted with a good team supporting me in the Department, but I can assure Members that these schemes, particularly the Thames tideway, are rightly matters of concern not just to my Department but right across Government, and to agencies such as the Environment Agency and Ofwat.
Recommendation 9 in the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee’s report was very important. It suggested a serious look at how Ofwat saw the Thames tunnel. The Government’s response, which I will not repeat, set out clearly that Ofwat accepted without reservation the Committee’s recommendation that it must make full use of its regulatory powers
“to scrutinise the economic case for the Thames Tunnel project and be rigorous in determining which costs should be passed on to Thames Water customers.”
I know that Ofwat would want me to continue to provide assurances about that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster commented on the risk of infraction of the urban waste water treatment directive. I remind the House that the UK is already in the European Court of Justice with respect to the combined sewer outflows into the Thames, so far from there being a risk of gold-plating, there is a risk that the Court will find that we are doing too little. We await its judgment later this year, but I would be surprised if it came to the conclusion that the Thames tunnel was not required.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark mentioned cost-benefit analysis. There was an analysis in December 2011 to support the ministerial statement, and it took account of the increased costs of the project. As I said earlier, I assure him that we are examining the matter rigorously with advice from Ernst and Young and others, and will continue to do so. We will reassure the House of our assessment from time to time. As I said, Ministers will remain sceptical about the cost of the project, and we will drill down to ensure that we deal with it as well as possible.
The hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) spoke in support of what the Government are seeking to do, and he made a number of points. He mentioned the definition of sustainable development. On page 9 of the Government’s framework document, in paragraph 2.2.3, the Government’s key policy objectives are set out, and a definition is given of sustainable development in relation to the national policy statement. We will also shortly publish the national planning policy framework, which my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) mentioned. That, too, will set out the Government’s definition, moving forward from that of the Brundtland commission. The Environmental Audit Committee has done some work on the development of that definition, and I hope that there is general agreement about it throughout the House.
The hon. Member for Luton South mentioned the green deal, which of course has a blue element—hot water. I entirely share his ambition that the Government should examine the success that I am sure there will be in the green deal and see whether we can retrofit water-saving measures into households. There is a whole range of ways to do that. I refer him to our green infrastructure partnership, which is overseeing the retrofitting of large sustainable drainage systems into developments and which we hope will be a real success. He also made a point about energy recovery, and my noble Friend Lord Taylor is liaising with the Department of Energy and Climate Change on that important matter.
My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, the Chairman of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, mentioned the cost of the Thames tunnel and also talked about the consultation on the national policy statement. It lasted 14 weeks and was considered to be within the scope of the Planning Act 2008, and stakeholders were contacted. I am sure the House will continue to consider better ways of consulting people. When consultations have passed, we always discover that some stakeholders and groups feel that they have not been involved. We must seek to do better, and I know that the House will continue to work on that, including through the Select Committee process.
My hon. Friend and other hon. Members asked why we are not establishing a red line on costs for the Thames tunnel project. As I have said, we are working across Government, with Ofwat, Infrastructure UK and Thames Water, to ensure that the Thames tunnel represents proper value for money, that the engineering costs of the tunnel are minimised, and that the project is delivered efficiently, with a structure and financing mechanism that delivers value for money for those who will pay for it.
My hon. Friend also raised the question of SUDS, which was no surprise to me or any other hon. Member—it is an important point. The Government’s intention is to implement the SUDS measures as soon as possible. Implementation dates are being explored in the consultation. Our initial proposal is to commence in October 2012, and during consultation we are seeking feedback on the feasibility of that date for those affected, including developers and local authorities. During the consultation period, officials have been working on a series of additional consultation events, including workshops around the country for local authorities on their capacity to deliver the SUDS requirements.
The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) raises, with his usual vigour, his concerns for his constituents. There is not time to go into them in detail, but I assure him that I will meet him and his constituents to ensure that we address the points he raises. Thames Water recognises that the odour at Deephams is a key issue for local stakeholders and is working with the Environment Agency, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Ofwat and local authorities. It can mitigate the problem to a degree. Options include covering and controlling odorous air from primary treatment plants.
The national policy statement requires all waste water treatment infrastructure projects of national significance examined by the Planning Inspectorate to include an appropriate odour impact assessment as part of the environmental statement. The applicant should assess that potential, so I hope the hon. Gentleman’s constituents will be living in a slightly more favourable environment in future.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster asked how much pollution is in our river at the moment. We must produce more evidence to satisfy him, but the fact is that there are 50 to 60 overflows from combined sewage overflows every year. That is set to increase. An element of that is being dealt with by the Lee Valley project, but another 18 million tonnes is flowing through our river, in one of the most important cities in the world. Yes, we require caution on cost, but we also require a resolute approach to deal with that.
Discharge events are increasing, and we know that only 2 mm of rain results in a combined sewage overflow. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that that will not change the colour of our river. Londoners and any visitor to this great city will stand on our bridges and see no demonstrable change in the colour of the river, but most people recognise that a bubbler system, which has worked well in Cardiff harbour, which is of course a lagoon rather than a tidal river, will not resolve the problem. Professor Binnie, who has been prayed in aid on all sides of the argument, seems to have come down on the same side that the Government reluctantly came down on, and concluded that the scheme should go ahead. He was right to do so.
I apologise to hon. Members if I have not been able to answer all their points, but this important debate is ongoing, and I commend the statement to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House takes note of and approves the National Policy Statement for Waste Water, which was laid before this House on 9 February.
Shipbuilding
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
My speech tonight might be about shipbuilding, but it is fundamentally about commitment—to a tradition, to an industry and to the people who rely on it. I am glad to have secured this debate and hope to catch the Chancellor’s ear when he makes his future plans. I hope it is not too late, but I doubt it.
I must begin by mentioning how disappointed I was at last month’s decision to award a £452 million contract for support tankers to the South Korean ship company, Daewoo, at the expense of the UK sector. Not only was this sneaked out in a written statement, but a Westminster journalist reported that the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff) said, “It’s okay, we’ve got away with it. It’s only on the BBC website”. I hope that the Minister will put the record straight today about these reported comments and about why the decision was made.
The four military afloat reach and sustainability—MARS—tankers, from which military helicopters will be able operate, are due to enter service from 2016. Owing to the timing and nature of the contract, it is especially tough on the UK sector. For example, there will be gaps in order books after the carriers and Type 45 destroyers are finished. Placing orders for those four ships in UK yards was essential to retaining those skills and capabilities in the UK. I remind the Minister that retaining that capability is also a strategic issue, so the Ministry of Defence is risking UK defence capability by placing this order in South Korea, as well as undermining the UK shipbuilding industry.
There have been suggestions in the past that South Korea has won orders at prices below production cost, and the EU has reported South Korea to the World Trade Organisation for its behaviour.
Speaking as a local MP, I would say that given that there are at least three years before the steel work on the carriers being built in the shipyards in my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) is finished, these contracts mean that there would have been enough time to find work to keep other highly skilled workers busy until the Type 26 frigates came along at these shipyards. Instead, however, as a result of losing out on this contract, the shortfall will lead to the loss of 1,000 jobs. Given that unemployment in my constituency is up 66% since February 2008 and in Glasgow city by 80% since summer 2007, we can see that this is of major concern not only to me but to the people of the city of Glasgow. That will be mirrored in other areas of the country.
What really annoys me, however, is that these four MARS tankers for the Royal Navy were deemed to be “warlike” ships. As a result, under the previous Government’s procurement rules, they would have been built in the UK. I secured that commitment from the previous Government in 2003 at a meeting of the Scottish Affairs Select Committee, when they guaranteed that all “grey ships” or “warlike ships” would be built in the UK.
My local GMB shipbuilders’ trade union certainly considers these tankers for the Royal Navy to be “warlike”, so like the Type 45 destroyers, the aircraft carriers and the future surface combatant ships, the Type 26 frigates, they should be built in the UK too. The reason is that they could be put into a war zone to refuel warships and to provide support for amphibious and land forces close to the shore. They need to be equipped with proper defences to protect the Royal Navy personnel on board, the helicopters that operate from them and, of course, the ships themselves—let us not forget them and the men in them. For that reason alone they should be built in the UK.
I fear, however, that the commitment that I secured from the previous Government is being broken and that the current Government are sending out signals that they will continue to break it. In fact, I believe that it is the Government’s policy to break it. This fear is supported by the equipment, support and technology Green Paper published on December 2010. It stated that the Government intended to buy more defence equipment off the shelf. As defence companies in the UK cannot afford the costs or accept the risks of developing major pieces of defence equipment without Government support, the clear implication of the Green Paper is that the Government mean to buy more equipment from foreign suppliers. Moreover, there is no mention of arrangements for licensed production, suggesting that the Ministry of Defence envisages buying more from the company’s own production line—another potential blow for UK manufacturing.
At the end of August 2011, the Government announced an order of 14 Chinook helicopters from Boeing, at a cost of £1 billion, which was fully in line with the approach I have outlined. At the beginning of October, AgustaWestland announced that it would make 375 staff redundant, owing to a shortage of work. That means that the Government are setting a dangerous precedent, which may have changed the commitment that I received from the previous Government on “grey ships”. With fewer than 10,000 highly skilled workers in the shipbuilding industry, any further loss of commitment to support the yards will result in the total collapse of UK shipbuilding and the loss of a highly skilled and motivated work force. Investment over the last few years has created a fantastic opportunity for UK shipbuilding to be recognised as it was a number of years ago—highly respected for quality, efficiency and cost-effectiveness. Many navies in the world are looking at our Type 45 destroyers with envy. They are without doubt the best ships of their class and type anywhere in the world.
The Government say that no UK yard made a bid for the MARS ships. However, I am the chair of the all-party shipbuilding and ship repair group, and a meeting was held last week. I have approached companies that should have bid, but did not do so, for which there were two good reasons. First, they were discouraged from doing so; and secondly, the decision had already been made on cost. Will the Minister comment on that, verify whether those are the facts, and if so, say what he will do to rectify the situation?
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
In view of my hon. Friend’s discussions with the all-party group, will he tell the House why those companies appear to have been discouraged?
John Robertson
My hon. Friend will appreciate that the companies do not want to be named, for obvious reasons—their orders might be looked at in future—but the fact of the matter is that they seem to have been pretty well warned off, being told that it would be a waste of time, energy and money for them to tender for the ships. I find that despicable to say the least, and it is also a slight on our great work force, who work in the shipyards in my constituency and many others.
The previous Labour Government deserve to be congratulated on saving shipbuilding on the Clyde, as the Conservative Government from whom they took over did their best to ensure that those yards closed. The present carrier project, initiated by the last Government, is not only boosting the shipbuilding sector’s profile, but having a knock-on effect in the manufacturing sector as a whole. At a time of high unemployment, we should remember that the industry cannot afford to lose skilled workers, because as we have seen, once gone, they do not return to the industry. The industry needs skilled workers over the next 10 years. The young people entering the industry need to be trained, but it is not easy with people leaving the industry owing to lack of work or retirement. The shipbuilding work force are ageing and need new blood now. With youth unemployment at an all-time high—I might add that it is above the national average in my constituency—what better time than this to employ more young people? I congratulate BAE Systems in my constituency on its apprenticeship policy and on doing a great job to keep apprenticeships going in the last 10 years, but let us face it: the industry on the Clyde can ill afford any redundancies.
All this raises the question of where the ships should be built. We could, of course, build them abroad, as the Government appear to want to do. After all, it might work out cheaper to do so. However, we are not talking about a simple commercial ship that can be built more cheaply in a low-wage economy; in this case, we are talking about complex, highly integrated systems that happen to be housed in ships. We have the necessary skills here in the UK, and we cannot run the risk of losing crucial shipbuilding skills to other countries, let alone the cost of unemployment. Ultimately, the Government could find that they have nowhere at home to turn to for their systems requirements, if they continue to act as they currently are: penny wise but pound foolish.
The Minister will be aware of a recent report by the Royal United Services Institute which looked into defence procurement. The report found that the tax revenue implications of a given choice are frequently overlooked. Given that the Government, including the Ministry of Defence, are committed to reducing the budget deficit—a function of spending and revenue—this issue is highly pertinent. Using an actual contract and an explicit accounting method, the RUSI report found that the tax revenues are significant; they can yield to the Exchequer over a third of the value of the contract.
The same study found that the Government could get back more than 28% in income tax and national insurance payments alone by buying British in defence procurement. That figure is of obvious procurement policy significance at a time when there is such concern over the Government’s budget deficit, and this is something that the Chancellor should consider this week. The thousands of people in the shipbuilding industry could not care less about the 50p tax rate; they just want a job that allows them to be able to pay tax. The report also suggested that if the UK were to spend a third of its defence budget on off-the-shelf foreign systems, as outlined in the Green Paper on equipment, support and technology, the Treasury would lose about £1 billion in revenue. That could have a negative effect on Government revenues and thus on the public sector deficit. Will the Minister tell us whether the Government have considered the RUSI report?
There is also a human aspect to all this that we miss in the faceless statistics and figures that are quoted. How can families in my constituency, and constituencies like it, plan for their own future when they could see their jobs go? How can we expect them to cope with such insecurity, especially when they are working in an industry of national importance? We are talking about generations of families who have worked in the industry, and about the traditions that go along with that. If the Government cut first and think later, it is those people and many others like them who will ultimately pick up the tab. So I call on the Minister and the Government to honour the commitment of the previous Government to the proud people in the shipbuilding industry of this country, and to ensure that all “grey ships” continue to be made in Britain.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) on securing the debate, and on his heartfelt remarks. He knows the shipbuilding industry in its entirety well. I am sure that he will not be surprised to learn that I do not agree with all his conclusions, but I nevertheless respect the fact that he takes a considerable interest in the industry.
I should like to set out the UK’s current market position on defence and, indeed, on the broader issue of marine engineering, because that is crucial to underpinning many of the engineering businesses to which he referred. I shall respond to his specific concerns on defence, and explain the Government’s strategy for helping marine engineering in the round to grow over the next few years.
I want to put this in context. The foundation of UK marine manufacturing and shipbuilding derives from our historical position in relation to merchant shipping and to the defence of our nation. Today, the equipment that we develop in this country is still highly favoured by ship and boat owners around the world. The marine industries manufacture and provide important support services in not only the naval market but the leisure, commercial and offshore renewable markets, and generate some £10 billion for the UK. Furthermore, the UK is still the fourth largest shipbuilder in Europe in terms of gross value added. However, the global market is not static, as the hon. Gentleman acknowledged. Today, our expertise and facilities are being adapted for new clients and new markets. Of course, that also means that they face new challenges from new competitors who were not there 10 or 15 years ago.
Our worldwide reputation for naval ships, marine equipment and systems, marine science, ports and infrastructure, ship repair and recycling is now migrating into a broader sphere, which includes offshore renewables manufacture, super-yachts and high-value sailing yachts. Let us take, for example, South Boats, which designs and builds aluminium catamarans on the Isle of Wight. It sells to a market for the operators of offshore wind farms in the whole field of support and crew transfer vessels. Four years ago—in 2008—its turnover was in the region of £8 million, but it exported merely 5% of its output. By 2011, the turnover had increased to £23 million, with 21% exports. That is an example of positive signs in shipbuilding and ship repair, but it is not the only one.
Let us take the revival of the Cammell Laird Birkenhead shipyard. The firm that went into administration in 2001 was bought back by former employees and now once again, I am pleased to say, is a thriving shipbuilding and ship repair business. It specialises in commercial repair and upgrading heavy fabrication engineering, but also operates in military refit markets. It is located, as we know, in an area where there is a major cluster of marine service expertise. It is currently responsible for the maintenance of vessels from the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, which recently saw service in Libya, and is working on a number of commercial conversion projects.
What is encouraging about this—it is something to which the hon. Gentleman specifically referred—is the important commitment to training. The current chief executive at Cammell Laird, John Syvret, started as an apprentice shipwright. Today the company employs 70 apprentices alongside a core work force who average almost 700 direct staff. These are good signs for the prospects, and, indeed, the ambition of shipbuilding in the UK, but we recognise that this company, among others, has to compete in a tough and challenging global market.
We have, of course, seen this country and others facing a substantial financial crisis in past years, and many of the markets that shipbuilders sell into have either just come out of recession or, in some cases, are still in it. That is why when we started as a Government we wanted to put manufacturing back at the heart of our economic strategy. It is why we believe our job is to make sure that we maximise industries’ competitive advantages. That is why we are ensuring that we have one of the most competitive tax regimes—not just in the G7 but in the G20. It is crucial to get that long-term investment that is important to industry generally and to shipbuilding specifically. This also explains why we are investing in skills, as with the substantial expansion of apprenticeships. It is why we are investing in key infrastructure, with our £200 billion package of civil engineering projects incorporated into our national infrastructure plan.
John Robertson
The Minister, with his limited time, is generous in giving way. Does he agree that the reason why we have these apprentices and why we are investing in skills is that we have lost those skills over the decades, so it is more by necessity than design that this is happening?
Mr Prisk
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that we have seen a wind down so that over the next 10 to 15 years there will be a substantial loss through retirement of a whole generation of engineers. We do not see this is a necessity, however, but as an important part of shifting the balance of the economy. We want to see a strengthening in apprenticeships, so I would go further than the hon. Gentleman suggested. We believe that supporting supply chains and technological innovation is the way in which shipbuilding in the UK and elsewhere can keep ahead, so we need to make those investments.
Let me deal specifically with defence, on which the hon. Gentleman focused—not surprisingly in view of his constituency. It is, of course, a significant market for the UK’s shipbuilding sector. Supporting this, the Royal Navy is in the middle of a major building programme of both warships and submarines. Looking at the broader industrial issue here, partnering and industrial collaboration are key elements of the programme.
The warship programme is a significant investment, including six Type 45 destroyers, five Astute class submarines and two Queen Elizabeth class carriers, and they are all being delivered by UK shipyards. Subject to Ministry of Defence approval, new contracts are anticipated for two further Astute class submarines, the future strategic deterrent submarine and a new generation of frigate—the Type 26 global combat ship. The Type 26 frigates will form the backbone of the Royal Navy until the middle of this century and, I suspect, beyond. It is clearly too soon to speculate on precisely where the ships will be built, but I will say that the programme provides a real opportunity for strong ties to be formed between the United Kingdom Government, the Royal Navy and British industry as it progresses.
The work on the Queen Elizabeth class carriers, which it is important to consider in this context, has brought about a reinvigoration of the apprenticeships programme on the Clyde. Some 270 apprentices will be employed by BAE Systems, and 154 by Babcock in Rosyth.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
As the Minister will know, refitting the two carriers in Rosyth would give my constituency 50 years of work. In the light of the sensitive nature of carrier work, will he confirm that if Scotland were to leave the United Kingdom, my constituency would not be able to compete with English yards on a level playing field?
Mr Prisk
All the Royal Navy’s current warships are built in the United Kingdom. Scotland has a strong and skilled defence sector, and it would make strong bids, but if Scotland were not part of the United Kingdom, the sector would clearly be pitching for business in what is a very competitive international market. I am sure that Members on both sides of the House understand that.
Let me say something about the points raised by the hon. Member for Glasgow North West about BAE Systems’ shipyard work. Like the future implications for the yards, those issues are a matter for the company. The Ministry of Defence has made it clear that it expects the BAE Systems maritime naval ships terms of business agreement to provide a strong foundation for it to compete for non-MOD work, both here and abroad, but it is for the company to retain the capacity that it deems necessary to meet the demands made of it, and to transform the sector as it feels appropriate.
What the Government will do is ensure that the United Kingdom provides an economic and business environment within which businesses, shipbuilding or otherwise, can flourish. The defence White Paper, which was published on 1 February, explains how we will promote exports related to defence and security—for example, by ensuring, when we work with industry, that export potential is considered at an earlier stage. All too often in the past Governments have not done that properly, regardless of their political persuasions.
Let me say something about the MARS programme. In the context of the fleet tankers, the hon. Gentleman referred to speculation in reports about remarks attributed to the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff). I can confirm that those remarks were wrongly attributed, and that my hon. Friend did not make them.
I share the hon. Gentleman’s frustration about the fact that no UK contractor bid for the final contract, but the Government cannot force contractors to bid. We are not in that position, nor should we be.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned previous commitments involving warlike vessels, but these are not warlike vessels. The commitment to which he alluded—that complex Royal Navy warships will continue to be built in UK shipyards—remains. I hope that that gives him some comfort.
Mr Prisk
I must tell the hon. Gentleman, with respect, that the debate was initiated by the hon. Member for Glasgow North West. I do not know whether he asked permission to intervene, but it appears that he did not, so I will now turn to the broader strategy.
If we are to achieve sustained improvements for the sector as a whole, we shall need a joint industry and Government strategy, whether it is in defence or on the civilian side. That is why, last year, we created the Marine Industries Leadership Council as a forum for the industry. We have launched the first ever strategy for the growth of the marine industries, which seeks to draw on the strengths of the whole sector. Having been a member of the Government for two years, I was surprised to learn that this was the first ever integrated UK strategy for the growth of the marine industries. Our goal is that by 2020, the UK marine industries will be renowned for the quality and value for money that they provide in their products, services and systems. A specific part of the goal is that we ensure that by 2020 the marine industries and maritime services sector sees the value of its contribution to our economy rise to £25 billion, up from £17 billion. That is a clear and important tangible goal, and I hope it will give some comfort to the excellent work force in the constituency of the hon. Member for Glasgow North West.
John Robertson
Does the Minister not accept, however, that the rules we in this country play by are not the same as those that other countries play by when bidding for orders to build our ships? There is not a level playing field. We allow companies from other countries to make bids when we know—particularly in respect of South Korea in the past—that money that has been given for development has been ploughed into the shipbuilding industry, to enable other countries’ companies to make ships cheaply.
Mr Prisk
I understand that point. The point has been made that the complexity of warships can make it quite difficult for other countries’ companies to make successful pitches. There might also, however, be a point to be made about the cheap end of the market—if we can use that expression in this context. We might look back at past procurement practices, for instance—and there has been a similar debate about trains in this context. The UK must ensure that, while working within the law, we enable UK businesses to compete, which is exactly what we are trying to do.
In the strategy for the marine industry, we have set out specific goals, including making sure we maximise export opportunities to places such as Brazil, Russia and India, expanding the domestic offshore renewable energy industry—that has a very good tie-in to the sector —and building on partnerships with the universities, because we should not forget that cutting-edge research and development is just as important as the excellent fabrication and construction work within the yards. We also want to improve co-operation within the marine industries sector.
Mr Prisk
I will make progress, if I may.
The Technology Strategy Board is helping to co-ordinate a future technology road map, and UK Trade and Investment has now, as I understand it, made marine a priority sector in our trade and inward investment programmes, which I find extraordinary. It is putting marine right where it needs to be, shipbuilding included.
Next month, my Department will be hosting an exhibition at Victoria street for the UK marine industries, where we can at last showcase some of the brightest and best products and services in the industry. I extend an invitation to the hon. Member for Glasgow North West and all other Members of the House.
Mr Speaker
Order. I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but may I gently say to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil)—
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman sought to intervene on a number of occasions. He was perfectly entitled to seek to intervene, just as the Minister was entitled to decline to take the interventions. The use of electronic devices in the Chamber is supposed to be undertaken without impairing decorum. To seek to intervene one minute, and then very ostentatiously and blatantly—
Mr Speaker
Order. To seek to intervene one minute, and then very ostentatiously and blatantly to be fiddling with such a device is a discourtesy, and I simply ask the hon. Gentleman not to do it. There is nothing more to say on the subject.
Mr Prisk
I cannot promise the hon. Member for Glasgow North West that we will return to large-scale shipbuilding on the Clyde. I do not think he expected me to say otherwise. He and I both know that we now live in a different era, but a resurgent industrial sector, including shipbuilding, lies at the heart of our plans to try to rebalance the economy and ensure that we have a more resilient model for long-term growth, and to show respect for the quality of the work done both now and in the past by the men and women who work in the shipyards. Despite what some people think, this country remains one of the world’s leading manufacturing nations and, as far as I am concerned, marine engineering remains a vital element of that.
We are a maritime nation, and I believe that, with a clear strategy, with investment in technology and with our commitment to skills, we can ensure that the future for this industry can once again be positive.
Question put and agreed to.
Petitions
School Buildings (Runcorn)
Train Fares in West Kent and East Sussex
Written Ministerial Statements
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Public Data Corporation
(12 years, 8 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Norman Lamb)
I would like to inform the House that the Government are today publishing their response to the Consultation on Data Policy for a Public Data Corporation. Alongside the response the Government are publishing detailed terms of reference for the Data Strategy Board and the Public Data Group, which the autumn statement announced Government would be establishing. Copies of these documents will be placed in the Libraries of the House.
The Data Strategy Board will seek to maximise the value of data from the Public Data Group of Trading Funds for long-term economic and social benefit, including through the release of data free of charge. The Public Data Group will comprise Companies House, HM Land Registry, Met Office and Ordnance Survey.
The Government are also announcing as part of this package the creation of an Open Data User Group which will advise the Data Strategy Board on public sector data that should be prioritised for release as open data, and will provide a forum for engaging a broad range of users and re-users of open data.
The Public Data Group will seek to support growth in the UK economy by delivering efficiencies and improvements in public services through its members.
National Minimum Wage
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Norman Lamb)
The Low Pay Commission’s 2012 report and recommendations to the Government are being published today, alongside the Government’s response.
The Low Pay Commission’s 2012 report
The main recommendations put forward by the Low Pay Commission concern the rates of the national minimum wage. The Commission has recommended that the adult hourly rate of the national minimum wage should increase from £6.08 to £6.19. The Commission has recommended freezing both the development rate which covers workers aged 18 to 20 at £4.98 and the rate for 16 and 17-year-olds at £3.68. It recommends that the apprentice rate increases from £2.60 to £2.65. It is recommended that these changes take place in October 2012.
The Commission has also recommended that the accommodation offset increases from the current £4.73 to £4.82 in October 2012.
Government’s response to individual recommendations in the Low Pay Commission’s 2012 report
National Minimum Wage Rates
We recommend that the adult rate of the national minimum wage be increased by 11 pence to £6.19 an hour from 1 October 2012.
We recommend a youth development rate of £4.98 an hour and a 16 and 17-year-old rate of £3.68 an hour from 1 October 2012.
We recommend that the apprentice rate be increased by 5 pence to £2.65 an hour from 1 October 2012.
We recommend that the accommodation offset should be increased by 9 pence to £4.82 per day from 1 October 2012.
Accept
Simplification
We recommend that in order to make operating the national minimum wage as simple as possible for all users, the Government put in place, and maintain, effective, clear and accessible guidance on all aspects of the minimum wage particularly where there is significant evidence of ignorance or infringing practice. As a first step, the Government should undertake a review of all existing guidance.
Accept
Compliance
We recommend that the Government should not only have a process for naming infringers but should also make frequent use of it. The Government should also actively seek other publicity opportunities which will help to signal that those who infringe the national minimum wage get caught and punished.
We recommend that the Government should more actively communicate both the rates themselves and rights and obligations under the national minimum wage. Communication activities about the minimum wage should not be subject to the Government’s marketing freeze.
Note
The Government recognise the importance of effectively publicising national minimum wage compliance activities and communicating rates, rights and obligations and we will carefully consider how best to achieve this. We will continue to look for cost-effective ways of communicating within the controls on Government spending announced last year.
Copies of the Low Pay Commission’s 2012 report have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
NewBuy Guarantee Scheme
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant Shapps)
I notified the House in November 2011 that the Department for Communities and Local Government would be incurring a contingent liability in relation to the NewBuy Guarantee scheme. Today, I am notifying the House that a financial minute is being laid outlining the details of this contingent liability. This was also set out in both the November 2011 housing strategy and the 2011 autumn statement to Parliament.
Agriculture and Fisheries Council
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
The next Agriculture and Fisheries Council is on 19 and 20 March in Brussels. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) responsible for natural environment and fisheries will represent the UK on 19 March covering fisheries business. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will represent the UK on 20 March covering the agriculture items. Richard Lochead MSP and Alun Davies AM will also attend.
On 19 March the Council will be discussing four fisheries items; the common fisheries policy (questions on discards policy), the organisation of markets in fishery and aquaculture products, the Maritime and Fisheries Fund and the external dimension of the common fisheries policy.
On 20 March the main item will a debate on the simplification of the CAP plus a number of any other business points.
On 20 March the presidency has invited Agriculture Ministers to an informal working lunch on CAP reform to discuss the criteria for the distribution of pillar 1 and pillar 2 funds.
Red Tape Challenge Environment Theme
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
Environmental regulations will remain as strong as ever but be made simpler and more effective following a review of red tape which also will boost British business by more than £1 billion over five years. Simpler and smarter environment regulations will protect the environment by being cheaper and easier for companies to follow, while enforcement will be targeted to where it is most needed.
I undertook at the start of the challenge to maintain the vitally important protection our environment needs. This exercise was about getting better rules, not weaker ones and in so doing to support, not undermine, the environmental outcomes that the Government are striving to achieve. The results of the red tape challenge will be good for the environment and good for business because, as well as assuring protection of our environment, we will, by removing unnecessary bureaucracy, allow businesses to free up resources to invest in growth. We are therefore making it easier for people to do the right thing, by making rules clearer and by getting rid of old, unworkable regulations. This is a prime example of how we can help grow a green economy while looking after our natural resources.
The proposals being made today have been developed in consultation with green groups and businesses, including 3,500 website responses and written submissions. They will see 132 regulations improved, mainly through simplification or mergers; 70 kept as they are necessary to uphold important environmental protections; and the repeal of 53 others that are obsolete.
The proposals will both ensure protection of the environment and benefit a wide range of businesses, particularly small and medium sized firms. Businesses told us they were particularly frustrated by the amount of red tape and paperwork needed to deal with their waste and the amount of staff hours responsible companies are spending dealing with bureaucracy and inspections. The proposals are intended to address this and once implemented, are anticipated to provide savings to businesses of more than £1 billion over five years.
The Government’s environmental objectives remain unchanged and we will maintain the strong protections already established as we continue to look for further opportunities to reduce burdens for business. Many comments in the red tape challenge suggested that the environmental framework—covering 257 regulatory instruments, over 10,000 pages of guidance and 397 data sets—is overly complex and inconsistent and gets in the way of businesses complying effectively with their environmental obligations. Work will start immediately with business and environment organisations to identify the scope for significant rationalisation of guidance leading to a report to Ministers by September with the aim of an announcement in the autumn. We will similarly examine the scope for significant rationalisation of data sets and report by the autumn. Changes that can be easily introduced will be taken forward as soon as possible.
Details of the package are available online at:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/about/how/regulation/
EU Foreign Ministers (Informal Meeting)
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
I attended an informal meeting of EU Foreign Ministers (Gymnich), which was held on 9-10 March in Copenhagen, Denmark.
The informal format of the Gymnich allows EU Ministers to engage in a free and in-depth discussion. Discussions are held in private, and Ministers do not agree any formal written conclusions, in contrast to arrangements in the Foreign Affairs Council (FAC). The next FAC will be held on 23 March.
The Gymnich was chaired by the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness Ashton of Upholland. Her remarks following the meeting can be found at:
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms Data/docs/pressdata/EN/foraff/128885.pdf
The meeting was structured around three themes: EU foreign policy in the current economic context; human rights; and the nature of EU influence, sanctions and engagement.
EU foreign policy in the current economic context
Many Ministers agreed that the neighbourhood, broadly defined, was a top EU priority. This includes the western Balkans, Turkey and the eastern and southern partners. Ministers noted a number of External Action Service (EAS) successes over the last year—progress on Serbia/Kosovo; the reform of the neighbourhood policy; the EU’s response to the multiple challenges of the Arab spring; and E3+3 diplomacy with Iran.
There was strong support for the broad principle that the EU needed to strengthen its economic diplomacy to reflect the current economic context. Many Ministers argued that we needed better to connect the EU’s political and economic priorities, including with the emerging powers. I argued that this included a need to build on the March European Council commitment to open up trade, for example through new free trade agreements.
Many Ministers noted that for greatest impact, the EU needed to apply a comprehensive approach—development, diplomacy, common security and defence policy (CSDP)—to conflict and stabilisation in regions like the horn of Africa and the Sahel. Many Ministers further encouraged better co-ordination between the EAS and member states in third countries.
Human rights
There was broad agreement that human rights and fundamental freedoms were universal—the Arab spring had illustrated that these were not uniquely European or western values. Ministers also argued that human rights should be mainstreamed across all EU external work, rather than confined to human rights departments or bilateral human rights dialogues. There was also broad support for appointing an EU Special Representative for Human Rights, with an outward facing mandate. Ministers should consider such ideas at a future FAC.
I highlighted the link between human rights and economic priorities, suggesting that the EU should encourage businesses to sign up to human rights standards. Ministers further discussed the importance of defending freedom of religion and belief.
The nature of EU influence, sanctions and engagement
Ministers debated the utility of sanctions as a lever of foreign policy. I and other Ministers argued that well-targeted sanctions could influence regime capability and behaviour. Recent examples include the effect of sanctions on the regime in Burma and formerly in Libya. Ministers took the view that EU sanctions should target regime behaviour, not innocent civilians; should be targeted and reversible; and should not be used in isolation from other measures. Ministers further noted that they were more effective when co-ordinated with the UN and other key actors; and when their purpose was better communicated.
Ministers agreed that sanctions were just one element of the EU toolkit. Positive incentives—market access; enlargement; development spend—could also influence third countries. A sophisticated approach combining positive and negative levers was needed, depending on circumstance.
My right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Europe and I will continue to update Parliament on Foreign and General Affairs Councils as and when future meetings are held.
NHS Quality Standards
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)
Today we are referring new NHS quality standard topics, that supplement previous referrals, to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE)
NICE quality standards are a set of specific, concise statements and associated measures. They set out aspirational, but achievable, markers of high-quality, cost-effective patient care, covering the treatment and prevention of different diseases and conditions.
Quality standards will underpin the commissioning process. Under the provisions set out in the Health and Social Care Bill, the Secretary of State and the NHS Commissiong Board will come under new duties to have regard to any quality standards produced by NICE.
This list of topics being referred today follows advice received by the National Quality Board (NQB). The NQB developed a proposed list of topics in partnership with the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges which was then the subject of an engagement exercise conducted between 15 August and 14 October 2011.
Responses to the engagement exercise were supportive of the overall quality standards programme and the diversity of topics put forward. Detailed comments were also received on what particular aspects of care should be addressed by specific quality standards and we have asked NICE to take these detailed comments into account when developing quality standards.
In addition to this referral of NHS topics, we are today referring three pilot topics for development into NHS facing quality standards on cross-cutting public health topics. These quality standards will focus on the action the NHS can take in these areas, and comes in response to the recent recommendations from the NHS Future Forum that NICE should develop quality standards setting out the evidence-based action that the NHS can take in relation to the main lifestyle risk factors.
The NQB will continue to keep the sequencing of quality standard topics under regular review as well as the case for referring additional topics, taking into account operational requirements, NICE’S capacity to produce quality standards and clinical guidelines, and the evidence that is available at the time.
A copy of today’s referral letter to NICE (including a list of topics) has been placed in the Library. Copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper office. Further information on quality standards can be found on NICE’s website: www.nice.org.uk.
Grand Committee
Arrangement of Business
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)
My Lords, if there is a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes or for a time at my discretion if there are more Members than usual.
Public Bodies (Abolition of the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts) Order 2012
Baroness Wilcox
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Public Bodies (Abolition of the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts) Order 2012.
Relevant documents: 51st Report from the Merits Committee, 39th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox)
My Lords, let me start by reassuring noble Lords that, while this order will abolish the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts as a non-departmental public body, NESTA’s future is secure. It is being reconstituted as an independent charity with the National Lottery endowment transferred to a separate charitable trust. There is no anticipated negative impact on NESTA’s work as a result of these changes.
NESTA was established by the National Lottery Act 1998 with an endowment from the National Lottery, currently valued at £321 million. Over the past 14 years, it has promoted innovation through a combination of activities. In recent years, its focus has been on delivering practical programmes, such as the Big Green Challenge, providing early stage capital to innovative companies and carrying out research into innovation.
NESTA’s future was considered as part of the Government’s public bodies reform programme and our commitment to reduce the number and cost of quangos. NESTA performs a valuable function—it delivers highly regarded programmes and research—and we wanted to see its activities continue, but it did not need to remain a public body. Therefore, the Government put forward a proposal to abolish NESTA using the powers of the Public Bodies Act, which, as noble Lords know, received Royal Assent in December.
BIS launched a consultation in October last year on the proposal to change NESTA’s status. Some 85 per cent of responses agreed with the preferred policy option as the most suitable choice for NESTA. Furthermore, more than 90 per cent of responses agreed that NESTA would benefit from increased independence from government. BIS carried out a full impact assessment of the transition and it is estimated that there will be a net benefit over 10 years of £1.84 million.
I should like to give noble Lords more details about the changes once NESTA is abolished as a public body. It will be reconstituted as an independent charity with the National Lottery endowment held in a charitable trust. Both the charity and the charitable trust have already been registered with the Charity Commission and the objects of the charity are sufficiently broad to allow NESTA to continue with current activities. If the noble Lord, Lord Warner, were here, I am sure that he would be pleased to note that, as he asked during the passage of the Public Bodies Act whether NESTA’s activities would be accepted as a charitable purpose by the Charity Commission.
All property and rights relating to the National Lottery endowment will be transferred to the charitable trust. All NESTA’s other property and rights, and its staff, will be transferred to the independent charity. The new NESTA charity is the sole trustee of the charitable trust and will apply returns from the endowment to advance the charitable objects of the trust. The NESTA charity also plans to obtain income from other sources, which it can use for its wider objectives. A final transfer scheme will be laid in the House once the order is made and the transfer will take place at the same time as NESTA is abolished. Subject to parliamentary clearance, the changes will come into effect on 1 April.
In order to maintain assurance for propriety of the way in which the National Lottery endowment is used, the Government are currently appointing a protector of the trust. The protector will have a fiduciary duty to ensure the integrity of the administration of the trust and the propriety of its procedures. He or she will be able to report any matters of serious concern about the way the endowment is being used to the Charity Commission and to Ministers. This model is already in use by the Millennium Awards Trust.
Following its change of status, NESTA will remain a UK-wide organisation and I understand that it is keen to increase its level of activity in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. As required by the Public Bodies Act, we have obtained the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the Scottish Parliament will be considering our order on Wednesday. We have also consulted the Welsh Government and continue to keep them informed of progress. I commend this draft order to the Committee.
Lord Razzall
My Lords, I welcome the explanation given by the noble Baroness. Of course, I fully support this proposal, as does, it appears, virtually everybody who has been consulted. My one question relates to the retention of the endowment within the public sector. As I understand it, the Government do not want to transfer the endowment out of the public sector, as the endowment is held more in less in government securities and, if those were to be transferred out, that would lead to an increase in the public sector net debt. Could the noble Baroness assure me that the retention for national accounts purposes of the endowment in the public sector does not imply any form of control of those assets by the Treasury? Clearly, the whole purpose of doing this is to get this out of the public sector entirely. Will she assure me that this is purely a technicality and that there will be no attempt by the Treasury to control that flow of money?
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, the central question facing us on this issue is to ensure that, after replacing NESTA with a charity, it will continue with NESTA’s fine role in helping to grow our innovation economy and have an appropriate level of public accountability and scrutiny, which are not the same as diktats from the Treasury.
NESTA was one of the very successful measures introduced by the last Government to improve the translation of new research ideas into business and jobs. It used lottery money, which is, after all, the people’s money, to make the UK more innovative. As part of that, NESTA forged some interesting partnerships between innovators and policy-makers. As well as the investors, community organisations and educators have been there from the start. Some £50 million of the £320 million of the endowment that the noble Baroness mentioned was invested in start-up businesses. NESTA became the UK’s single biggest seed capital investor, which is something that we probably all applaud. That meant investing in life sciences and the healthcare sector, diagnostics, devices and biomaterials. These went into areas such as immune regulation, using some interesting new research and translating it very closely to patient use, a new generation of nerve repair from an innovative material and even being able to find a means to regrow teeth where they have been lost.
That work continues through the running of programmes with health service providers to improve the way that patients can work with doctors in managing long-term healthcare and, in a different sphere, through helping arts and cultural organisations to develop new business models and reach new audiences. The work also continues through developing with local authorities ways of looking after the elderly and young people and funding new ways to increase the giving of time, skills, assets and money through the Innovation in Giving Fund—something that I think we all welcome. We hope to see NESTA’s work continue to develop, but it has also played a role in encouraging high-flying early-stage researchers to be aware of the possibility of working across other disciplines and communicating science and its innovations to the public. I hope that the Minister will assure us that that work will continue.
As the Public Bodies Act was going through, I never accepted the necessity of moving NESTA from the public sector. I thought that that was being done simply to add another tick to the list. However, as it is now about to become a charitable company limited by guarantee, I hope the Minister will reassure us that it will not be caught by a lot of Charity Commission rules which were developed for a different purpose; that is, to protect normal beneficiaries of normal charities. We hope that it will not therefore have to answer a lot of questions designed for a different reason. Perhaps more importantly, we are about to lose some public accountability over the expenditure of money which has been raised from the public. The Minister mentioned the protector, which is an interesting name. It seems that the protector will ensure that the money is spent only on charitable aims and that NESTA’s procedures have integrity—I think the Minister used that word—but the protector will not be able to ask whether better things could have been done or other projects helped. At the moment Parliament can ask those questions about how NESTA is fulfilling its role and about its record, priorities and effectiveness. It seems to me that this accountability will now disappear. Therefore, the population whose money was spent on the lottery and then given to NESTA will have no say over the new charity via their elected MPs, this House or the Government. I hope that the Minister can reassure us on that point.
I am delighted—I have a feeling that the Minister will agree with me on this—that half the new trustees are women, which is an improvement on the fact that 100 per cent were men when the body was in the public sector, so some good things are happening. However, who in the future will appoint those charitable trustees? Will there be any public accountability over the decisions that those trustees will take on the use of the endowment? As I say, I regretted the original decision that was taken in this regard but we have probably ended up with the best possible outcome. However, I hope that the Minister will reassure me as regards public accountability and how the charitable trustees will be appointed in future. I also hope that she will reassure us that she will encourage the Government to use NESTA as a vehicle for promoting innovative ideas. It will be much better placed to do that outside the public sector. I hope the Government will give it every encouragement to do that.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I will not repeat what was said by my noble friend Lady Hayter, or by the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, so I shall be brief. As my noble friend said, we are discussing a casualty of the quango bonfire. Given the praise that the Minister heaped on NESTA, I wonder: if it ain’t broke, why did we bother to fix it? However, that question was covered by my noble friend.
I have a couple of points. The Minister spoke of staff being transferred. Am I right in assuming that they will be transferred under TUPE arrangements? I see a nod: that is good. I, too, am interested in the question of accountability and found the title of “protector” interesting. It has a Cromwellian overtone, so I hope that it will not go to his or her head. My noble friend Lady Hayter made a point about the fiduciary duties of the protector to ensure that the charitable trust performs its duties and to report to the Minister. I, too, would be interested in the general activities—apart from ensuring financial probity—of encouraging innovation and investment in the kind of areas to which my noble friend referred. If a report is made by the protector to the Minister, will we be able to question the Minister on it? I would also be interested to know how trustees will be appointed in future. I will not comment on the more technical points made by the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, and await with interest the Minister’s response.
Baroness Wilcox
I thank noble Lords for their consideration of the order and will try to answer the questions asked by my noble friend Lord Razzall, by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and by the noble Lord, Lord Young. I can assure my noble friend that there will be no attempt to control how the endowment is spent by the Treasury once the transfer scheme comes into effect. I hope that he will find that answer reassuring.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked several questions. I will try to answer most of them. Of course I agree—as I did in my earlier speech—that NESTA has done a wonderful job. The idea is to set it free to be able to do even more. Its objectives were registered with the Charity Commission and the Office of the Scottish Charity Regulator. Perhaps the noble Baroness did not ask about the Scottish Charity Regulator, so I have given her a bit more information than she asked for—but it is jolly nice to know these things.
In answer to the noble Baroness’s next question, once NESTA is reconstituted as an independent charity and trust, it will continue to support innovative companies, both as part of a diversified portfolio invested for financial return and through grant funding and programme-related investment in line with the charitable objectives that have been cleared. I hope that the noble Baroness will accept that reassurance.
In answer to the noble Baroness's third question, the new NESTA trust and charity will be subject—as is the case with all charities—to charity law and charity accounting rules. There are currently four trustees of the charity. The appointment of trustees to the charity will be a matter for the charity itself. We understand that the NESTA charity intends to appoint a number of new trustees in April 2012. It has established a nominations committee to consider the skills and experience required for the board, and is currently running an open applications process for new trustees. There will be no government involvement in that.
I am as delighted as the noble Baroness that half the charitable trustees are women. We will see if that continues—or perhaps it will finish up as an all-women board, whereupon the men will start to complain that they are not getting in anywhere. However, we will deal with that when we get to it. She mentioned that the previous Government had done a lot of work with NESTA, and we have been able to take on a concern that is going extremely well. We think that it will be very happy with this new move.
The noble Lord, Lord Young, asked about the protector—like him, I immediately thought “Cromwell” when I heard the word. There are no plans for the protector’s report to be presented to the House. The Government will continue to collaborate with NESTA in the future. As I said, there is a previous organisation; the model is already in use by the Millennium Awards Trust. We are watching carefully how that runs.
NESTA promotes innovation and creativity to help tackle social and economic problems, and provides the independent, well informed commentary on innovation policy that we have been asked should continue. However, after consideration of the conditions set out in the Public Bodies Act, the Government have concluded that NESTA does not need to be in the public sector to carry out its work. Abolishing NESTA as a non-departmental public body and reconstituting it as an independent charity and charitable trust will give NESTA greater freedom to pursue its valuable activities, which noble Lords have praised this afternoon.
I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this interesting debate, and I commend this draft order to the Committee.
Companies Act 2006 (Amendment of Part 23) (Investment Companies) Regulations 2012
Baroness Wilcox
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Companies Act 2006 (Amendment of Part 23) (Investment Companies) Regulations 2012.
Relevant documents: 41st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox)
My Lords, investment companies can benefit from a special distributions regime in the Companies Act 2006 if they satisfy conditions. These draft regulations amend those conditions to ensure that they remain in step with tax rules, which have recently been amended.
Investment companies are professionally managed, pooled, risk-spreading investment vehicles. They are publicly listed and invest in a diversified portfolio of shares, securities or other assets with the aim of providing a return to their investors.
These draft regulations amend the Companies Act to ensure that company law and tax rules work in harmony. Part 23 of the Companies Act regulates distributions by a company to its shareholders. It aims to protect the company’s creditors by ensuring that funds are available to meet the company’s debts in the event of it winding up. The most common form of distribution is the payment of a dividend.
The Companies Act allows investment companies to benefit from more relaxed distribution rules compared with other public companies when making distributions out of revenue profits. Investment companies do not have to comply with the net asset test, which permits a public company to make a distribution to its shareholders only if the amount of its net assets is at least equal to its called-up share capital and those reserves not available for distribution. Instead, an investment company must meet a condition that requires the company’s assets to be at least equal to one and a half times the aggregate of its liabilities to its creditors.
This concession for investment companies takes partial advantage of an option in the second company law directive. It recognises that during periods of falling share prices, investment companies might not be able to pay dividends to their investor-shareholders if required to satisfy the net asset test. This would undermine the purpose of these companies.
These draft regulations allow more types of investment companies to qualify for the relaxed distributions regime. It simplifies some of the conditions to ensure that they are compatible with the recent changes to the tax rules. They remove a restriction that prohibits investment companies from paying dividends out of capital profits. Investment companies, like other plcs, will be able to pay dividends out of capital profits and still benefit from the relaxed distribution rules. This change will allow the tax rules to work as intended.
The amended tax rules may require investment companies to distribute a proportion of their capital profits if they are to benefit from the corporation tax exemption. BIS, HMRC and the Treasury issued a joint consultation document on 27 July 2010 and a summary of responses was published on 9 December 2010. The draft regulations were published on the BIS internet site on 4 November 2011. A full impact assessment has been completed, stating that these regulations have a zero net cost to business. While we have been unable to monetise the benefits to business, the investment industry considers these amendments to be beneficial. Companies choose to opt in to the investment companies regime and will do so only if they consider that the benefits exceed the costs.
In summary, these regulations amend the existing rules for investment companies to broaden the definition of “investment company” and remove unnecessary restrictions. They are necessary if the recent changes made to the tax rules for investment companies are to have their full effect. This is a deregulatory measure that has been warmly welcomed by the investment industry, and I therefore commend it to the Committee.
Lord Razzall
My Lords, I welcome these regulations. It is clearly not sensible that HMRC should propose amendments which, unless the Companies Act is changed, cannot be implemented. I have just one question, which may be difficult to answer. It is suggested that the objective of HMRC is to try to increase the number of investment trusts that become domiciled in the UK in order to take advantage of these changes in company law and tax law. Page 8 of the impact assessment states that,
“there are 200 registered as ‘investment companies’ under the Companies Act”,
but that there are 320 quoted investment companies, which suggests that there is the potential for an additional 120 companies to register. Is that right? If the objective is to get companies that are quoted on other exchanges to register here, it could be presumed that a limitless number of companies might take advantage of these rules. I assume that the 120 companies referred to here are only UK companies, and it would be difficult to estimate the potential if that is HMRC’s objective.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I enter this debate with some trepidation because it is certainly not my favourite subject. I listened carefully to the Minister throughout her complex analysis of the benefits, but I am not sure that I fully comprehended it, so I apologise if I have to call for a bit of reiteration. I have two questions to put. The first is on risk-spreading investment vehicles. Given the problems that we have had with risk and financial collapses, is the Minister satisfied that the requisite safeguards are in place in these companies? Secondly, can the Minister explain in a little more detail precisely what benefits, following the changes to the corporation tax regime, will arise from realigning company law in this way?
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, I agree that it is a complicated subject—it is complicated to read. Consistency in regulation is essential if we are to provide a framework for companies to operate within and thrive. These regulations remove conflicting regulatory requirements between the Companies Act and corporation tax rules.
In answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, 320 investment companies are UK-domiciled. He is correct that we do not know how many companies are registered abroad. I am afraid that is the answer that I can give at the moment, but if the noble Lord wishes to take this up with me—
Baroness Wilcox
The noble Lord assumed correctly, of course, which is excellent.
In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, tax issues have been debated in the House of Commons and are now in place. I have not brought these details with me but I would be very happy to provide the noble Lord with those. I do not think that those details will make a fundamental difference to what we are asking for today. I hope he will bear with me on that. The noble Lord also asked about the corporation tax regime, which gives exemption to investment companies from corporation tax on their chargeable gains if they satisfy conditions.
In parallel, investment companies and their investor-shareholders will benefit from the removal of an unnecessary restriction. Investment companies will be able to pay dividends out of capital profits without losing their ability to benefit from the special distributions regime in the Companies Act.
Unless there are any further questions—
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I asked about risk. What are the safeguards in relation to assessing risk?
Baroness Wilcox
We do not consider that safeguards are compromised for risk-spreading vehicles. We regard this as a safe vehicle with no more risks than before. I think that is correct.
These regulations make the necessary amendments and I therefore commend them to the Committee.
Industrial Training Levy (Engineering Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2012
Baroness Wilcox
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Industrial Training Levy (Engineering Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2012.
Relevant documents: 42nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox)
My Lords, I have a fairly lengthy speaking note, which I have tried to minimise, but I hope that noble Lords will bear with me as I go through the main details of the orders.
The orders seek authority for the Construction Industry Training Board and the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board to impose a levy on employers in the industries they cover. The two industrial training boards—ITBs—whose levy orders we are considering are non-departmental public bodies that operate under the provisions of the Industrial Training Act 1982. The boards are employer-led and their role is to ensure that the quantity and quality of training is adequate to meet the needs of their industries. They provide a wide range of services, including setting occupational standards, developing vocational qualifications, delivering apprenticeships and paying direct grants to employers who carry out training to approved standards. The Industrial Training Act 1982 permits an ITB to raise levies on employers so that the costs of training are shared more evenly between companies in the industry. The orders before us provide evidence that, despite the current economic difficulties, these two industries will continue to invest in the skills of their workforces in the coming years.
The orders give effect to proposals submitted to us for levies to be collected by the CITB in 2012, 2013 and 2014, and for the ECITB in 2013. Both involve the imposition of a levy which is estimated to be in excess of 1 per cent of emoluments, essentially wage costs, for some employers. The orders can be made only if the Secretary of State is satisfied that the amount of levy is appropriate to the circumstances, that the proposals are necessary to encourage adequate training in the industry, and that they have the support of more than half the employers who together are likely to pay the majority of the levy. The Secretary of State is satisfied that these conditions have been met.
The Act also requires ITBs to include proposals for exempting small employers from the levy. Both orders therefore provide that small firms will be exempt if their expenditure on payroll and sub-contract labour is below a certain threshold that the industry considers to be appropriate. Those firms are still able to benefit from grant and other support from ITBs, and many of them do so.
In the Construction Industry Training Board order before the Committee, the CITB proposes that levy rates should remain unchanged from those approved by the House in 2009; that is, 0.5 per cent of payroll in respect of direct employees and 1.5 per cent of net expenditure on sub-contract labour. The rationale for the higher levy rate on sub-contract labour is that most training is carried out by employers with a direct labour force, mainly smaller employers. For the larger employers who use more labour, only sub-contractors are not usually directly involved in training. The higher levy rate on sub-contract labour is intended to share out the costs of training more equally across the whole industry.
As I said earlier, small firms are not required to pay the levy, and therefore employers whose combined payroll and net expenditure on sub-contract labour is less than £80,000 will not have to pay it. Around 50 per cent of relevant employers fall into this category. In addition, with the support of industry, the CITB has tried to mitigate the impact on employers who are just above the small firm threshold by applying a 50 per cent reduction to the levy payable if an employer’s expenditure on payroll and sub-contract labour is between £80,000 and £100,000. Over three years, the CITB’s proposals are expected to raise between £380 million and £390 million on levy income.
In the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board order, the ECITB also proposes to make no changes to its levy rates. The rate for site employees is 1.5 per cent of total payroll and net expenditure on sub-contract labour. Employers who spend £275,000 or less on site employees will not have to pay the levy. The rate in respect of offsite employees, often referred to as “head office” employees, is 0.18 per cent of total payroll and net expenditure on sub-contract labour. Employers who spend £1 million or less in respect of offsite employees will not have to pay the levy. Of all the establishments which are considered to be leviable by the ECITB, it is expected that around 35 per cent will be exempted from paying the levy. The ECITB covers a much smaller industry than the CITB, so the one-year proposal is expected to raise around £20 million in levy income.
The Committee will note that the CITB levy order covers a three-year period, while the CITB order covers only one year. The Industrial Training Act requires ITBs to submit proposals “from time to time”. Those proposals may provide for levies to be imposed for a period of up to three years. In 2009, both orders were made for three years. This time, the ECITB has proposed a one-year levy order because, in view of the current economic conditions, employers consider that they should retain flexibility on the issue of future levy rates. It is anticipated that next year the ECITB levy order will cover a two-year period with the intention of realigning the two orders, so that from 2015 both will again cover a three-year period.
The Committee will know from previous debates that the CITB and the ECITB exist because of the support they receive from employers and employer interest groups in their sectors. As I indicated earlier, there is a firm belief that without them there would be a serious deterioration in the quantity and quality of training in these industries, leading to a deficiency in skill levels. The boards’ own annual employer surveys continue to demonstrate strong support for the principle of a levy system. These draft orders will enable the two boards to continue to carry out their vital training responsibilities, and I ask the Committee to approve them. I beg to move.
Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the very detailed introduction. I have only one or two very minor points to raise on it.
First, when I was a member of the Equal Opportunities Commission we had a very successful campaign, known as the WISE campaign, which was conducted under the leadership of the noble Baroness, Lady Platt, who is herself an engineer. At that time I was a full-time union official and we co-operated with the ECITB—in fact the training board had always had a very good reputation with unions—and with the EOC in order to get women into the study of engineering. At that time it was not felt to be a suitable career for women, and that sort of feeling is still around. I would therefore like to know whether any special emphasis is being put on something like the WISE Campaign in view of the changes to the levy now being imposed so far as the training board is concerned.
As for the CITB, in some of the House’s debates on employment conditions and rights I have often been bothered about the fact that the construction industry unfortunately still has a very bad record on health and safety. I would like to know whether the Minister feels that the levy which is to be applied will be sufficient, and whether sufficient emphasis will be placed on the whole issue of health and safety in construction. I think that it is a very important issue at the present time.
Lord Razzall
My Lords, these orders are relatively straightforward. I have two questions for the Minister.
First, I note with interest that in the first consultation only 52 per cent of all levy-paying employers were in favour and in the other one only 59 per cent of the levy-payers were in favour, although in each case they represented slightly more of the estimated payments. Is the noble Baroness satisfied that that is sufficient approval for these proposals?
Secondly, there are quite detailed proposals for minimising the impact of these levies on small businesses. The various Explanatory Statements simply state what the proposals are regarding the exemption for small businesses, which the noble Baroness explained in her opening remarks. Is she satisfied that those exemptions go far enough?
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for her explanation of these orders. Generally speaking, we welcome the levy. Indeed, if it applied across all industry we might find another means of ensuring that we had more training and more apprenticeships, given that only 4 per cent to 8 per cent of employers actually employ apprentices. I welcome the fact that despite difficult times a significant majority of both the engineering construction industry and the construction industry still believe that the levy is a valuable and viable way forward.
I certainly concur with the points made by my noble friend Lady Turner in relation to women in engineering. Significant attempts are being made by companies to ensure that more women are involved in engineering, and in getting those women who are involved to go to schools and spread the word that this is an industry that provides useful employment and good-quality careers. The same can be said of construction. We are gradually beginning to see more women. I do not know if my noble friend Lady Turner has had the opportunity to visit the Olympic site and see the apprentices there, but it was certainly good to see more female apprentices involved in the construction stages.
I do not have any additional questions. I did not draw the same conclusion from the consultation outcome as the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, because when I read through it I felt that they made quite strenuous efforts to ensure that they had a widespread consultation. They recognise that a declining number of employers are involved in trade associations so they have gone for a wider survey. I think that the surveys are valid and can be justified. I understand why there has been only a one-year levy ordered, but I welcome the fact that both those levies will be realigned.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, I thank noble Lords very much indeed for the short debate that we have had. As soon as I saw the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, stand up, I almost saw the noble Baroness, Lady Platt, standing up with her because when I first came into this House they were doughty campaigners, and still are. The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, may be interested to know that the noble Baroness, Lady Platt, has stayed in contact even though she has to be at home most of the time and has written most encouraging letters throughout her absence, so she is with us in spirit if not in body.
Although the number of women in this field is increasing slowly, the CITB recognises that the number of women employed in construction remains disproportionately low, and it is directly addressing this issue by actively promoting equality and diversity. It was awarded the equality standard in 2011. Gaining the equality standard is a first for a sector skills council. It is also the first time that an organisation working across the three nations has achieved that standard, so things are improving, although there is more to do.
The noble Lord, Lord Young, kindly mentioned the apprentices at the Olympics site. I have been there and met them. It is lovely to see young girls having the opportunity to take on careers which are stretching them in every way. Both industries are health and safety-intensive industries, as the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, said. We have been told by both organisations that offering excellent training and following rigorous standards is a priority, so they realise that there is further to go in that regard. It is good to hear them say that themselves.
It is important that the levies do not place burdens on small firms, as I am sure my noble friend Lord Razzall will agree. That is why we have the exemptions. As I said earlier, 50 per cent of small firms involved in construction will not have to pay the levy. My noble friend asked about the surveys. I think that they were justified. Getting people to take part in surveys nowadays is not the easiest thing, but given the breadth of this issue, I think that a figure of some 52 per cent or 59 per cent is good. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Young, was happy to welcome that.
The combined figures from associations and the sample showed 85 per cent employer support for the levy, so that looks good. The proposals before the Committee relate to the construction and engineering construction industries, as we have just said. It continues to be the collective view of employers in these two industries that training should be funded through a statutory levy system to secure a sufficient pool of skilled labour. I commend these orders to the Committee.
Industrial Training Levy (Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2012
Baroness Wilcox
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Industrial Training Levy (Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2012.
Relevant documents: 42nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Postal Services Act 2011 (Disclosure of Information) Order 2012
Baroness Wilcox
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Postal Services Act 2011 (Disclosure of Information) Order 2012.
Relevant document: 42nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox)
My Lords, the two orders in this group are made under the Postal Services Act 2011, which was enacted in June of last year. The overall purpose of the Act is to secure the future provision of the universal postal service. The vast majority of the provisions in the Act came into force on 1 October 2011, including those in Part 3, which covers postal regulation. Part 3 enabled a number of changes to be made to the regulatory framework for postal services, including the transfer of regulatory responsibilities from Postcomm to Ofcom. The two orders before the Committee support the statutory functions of Ofcom as the regulator for postal services. Both extend to Ofcom powers that were previously available to its predecessor, Postcomm, under earlier legislation. I will address each order in turn, starting with the Postal Services Act 2011 (Penalties) (Rules for Calculation of Turnover) Order.
In order to regulate effectively, Ofcom, like any regulator, needs powers to enforce its decisions. The Postal Services Act mirrors the Communications Act in relation to compliance and enforcement notifications, penalties, urgent cases, serious and repeated infringements, suspension or restriction of the entitlement to provide a service, breach of directions and civil enforcement. This is a system that is already in place for the wider communications sector, and with which Ofcom has considerable experience. It is required because Ofcom may at some point need to take action against a postal operator for breach of a regulatory requirement.
There is a range of steps that Ofcom may take if a person is in breach of a regulatory requirement, moving from notification through enforcement notification to imposing penalties. The maximum penalty must not be more than 10 per cent of turnover and must be appropriate and proportionate to the contravention that it is designed to address. The order sets out the rules by which Ofcom must calculate turnover for the purpose of imposing such penalties.
The schedule to the order establishes the general rules for the calculation of turnover for the purpose imposed by Ofcom. Rule 1 sets out that turnover shall be calculated in conformity with accounting practices and principles that are generally accepted in the UK. Rule 2 sets out that the turnover of a person’s postal services business shall be calculated after the deduction of sales rebates, value added tax and other taxes directly related to turnover. Rule 3 makes provision for the calculation of turnover where a person’s postal services business consists of two or more undertakings. The power to impose penalties was available to Postcomm under the previous legislative framework. The order will simply allow Ofcom to exercise the same power in the same way, where necessary, to enforce its regulatory decisions.
I turn to the Postal Services Act 2011 (Disclosure of Information) Order 2012. This is made under enabling powers in the Postal Services Act 2011. Section 55—“Information”—and Schedule 8 to the Act make provision for information to be provided to Ofcom for the purpose of carrying out its functions in relation to postal services. Section 56 sets out the framework under which information obtained under Part 3 of the Act can be disclosed to other bodies for the purposes of carrying out their respective statutory functions.
Section 56(7) of the Postal Services Act 2011 makes it a criminal offence to disclose any information obtained by means of Part 3 of the Act, which relates to an individual or a particular business, during that person’s lifetime or while the business continues to exist, unless it is permitted by that section. Section 56 permits disclosure for the purpose of facilitating the carrying out by a prescribed body or other person of any functions under a prescribed enactment, and in other prescribed circumstances or for prescribed purposes, where “prescribed” means by an order of the Secretary of State. This is the subject of the second order before us today.
This order will prescribe those bodies or persons to whom information may be disclosed, the enactments under which information may be disclosed, and other circumstances and purposes. It will permit Ofcom to share information obtained under the Postal Services Act 2011 with certain public authorities that may require that information to assist them in carrying out their statutory functions.
The order essentially re-enacts disclosure gateways that previously existed under the Postal Services Act 2000, combined with those in the Communications Act 2003, although where appropriate it does replace and add some references to account for administrative and legislative changes. I therefore commend these orders to the Committee.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation. As she knows, we were not in support of the major principle behind the Postal Services Act, although I have to admit that we did applaud some aspects of it. We breathed a sigh of relief at the transferring of responsibilities from Postcomm to Ofcom. We can only hope that the regulation will be more effective than it was previously. I have no specific questions on this. As the Minister said, it is just a transfer of existing responsibilities from Postcomm to Ofcom.
Lord Razzall
My Lords, I share the support of the noble Lord, Lord Young. This is the first occasion on which a parliamentary body has met since we read in the newspapers and heard on the radio that the Post Office pension fund will be transferred to the Government. Perhaps I may rather cheekily ask the noble Baroness whether she is prepared to expand on that, and to say whether that means that the European Commission has approved the transfer. Or is that a cheeky question too far?
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, I think that it is a cheeky question too far, but I am taking my time in saying that in case someone wants to wave at me, in which case I will be only too delighted to give him any information that I can. The Government submitted their notification to the European Commission in June 2011. We continue to work closely with the European Commission and expect to receive a decision by 31 March, which will allow the Government to implement their policy of relieving the pension deficit. I thank the noble Lord for that question.
Perhaps I may close on these orders and say that I am grateful for the debate. The orders are re-enactments of the relevant provisions that were available to Ofcom’s predecessor, Postcomm, under earlier legislation. In the case of the disclosure of information order, the order is re-enacting the gateways that had been available under previous postal legislation. I commend the orders to the Committee.
Postal Services Act 2011 (Penalties) (Rules for Calculation of Turnover) Order 2012
Baroness Wilcox
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Postal Services Act 2011 (Penalties) (Rules for Calculation of Turnover) Order 2012.
Relevant documents: 41st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I suspect that there is about to be a Division in the House, so I am not sure whether it is worth going into the next business now. The noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, also is not here. I suggest that we take a five-minute adjournment now, and if there is a Division in that time we will elongate that by 10 minutes.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
My Lords, a Division has been called. We will adjourn for a further 10 minutes.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I adjourned the Committee until 4.51 pm. If noble Lords agree, we will wait for another two or three minutes.
Employment Tribunals Act 1996 (Tribunal Composition) Order 2012
Lord De Mauley
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Employment Tribunals Act 1996 (Tribunal Composition) Order 2012.
Relevant document: 41st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, first, I apologise for not being here when your Lordships were gathered. Matters seem to have proceeded apace beforehand.
The effect of the Unfair Dismissal and Statement of Reasons for Dismissal (Variation of Qualifying Period) Order 2012 is to extend the qualifying period for unfair dismissal from one to two years for individuals beginning work on or after the commencement date. It also extends in the same way the minimum period an employee must have been with their employer before they are entitled to request a written statement of reasons for dismissal.
Workers in the United Kingdom have been protected by unfair dismissal legislation since 1971. Since its introduction, unfair dismissal has always been subject to a minimum qualifying period. The concept of a qualifying period has been accepted by successive Governments, no matter their political persuasion, although the length of that period has been flexed by Governments according to economic circumstances, and today’s amendment is no exception.
We need to generate jobs and growth. Creating employer confidence is vitally important to underpinning the Government’s objective to get the British economy back on its feet. Extending the qualifying period for unfair dismissal is one of a range of measures that we are taking to encourage recruitment and to reduce the burden of employment law.
We have listened to businesses, which have told us that the one-year qualifying period is a barrier to hiring. Business and business representative group responses to last year’s Resolving Workplace Disputes consultation were firmly in favour of this extension. They were clear—a year is not always long enough to be certain that a new employee is right for their organisation. I know this to be true from my own experience. When I started my business in 1999, the one-year qualifying period was a source of concern. In highly skilled roles where training can take a considerable time, I needed longer to assess new staff, particularly given that the notice period is taken into account within the qualifying period. This can also be true when potential employees are young and inexperienced, or have been out of work for some time. The Government are thinking about ways in which we can stimulate employers to take on these groups of workers. Extending the qualifying period will give employers the confidence to invest in new members of staff. It will give them the opportunity to get the working relationship right.
It is important to note that our package of employment law measures strikes a fair balance between employee rights and employer needs. “Day one rights” are unaffected by this order. We believe that it is right and proper that an employer who behaves in a discriminatory way or who dismisses an employee for exercising his or her statutory rights will continue to be subject to employment tribunal claims at any time. So without undermining important employee protections, the Government are committed to improving employer perceptions of employment law and the level of burden that it places on them.
The likely improvements in business confidence are inevitably difficult to quantify. This is because a huge range of factors is affecting levels of employment. The effect of a single regulatory change cannot readily be isolated, but that does not mean that these benefits should be ignored. The majority of businesses say that unfair dismissal rules are an important factor in their recruitment decisions. We are therefore confident that this measure will make a positive impact.
This is about the employer who gives a chance to the school leaver who otherwise may not have been recruited. It is about the employer who might otherwise have let a member of staff go if they have not quite met the mark at a year rather than risk an unfair dismissal claim further down the line. A two-year qualifying period for unfair dismissal is the right policy. It strikes the right balance in the context of our fair and flexible labour market. It creates an environment where employers will have more time to assure themselves that working relationships are right and it will give them the confidence to take on new members of staff.
The Employment Tribunals Act 1996 (Tribunal Composition) Order 2012 will enable but not oblige employment judges to sit alone in employment tribunal proceedings relating to unfair dismissal. This order is about improving the effectiveness and efficiency of the employment tribunal system. It is about replacing prescription with flexibility, but it does so while maintaining essential safeguards to fairness—fairness to the parties and fairness to taxpayers. Of course, judges sitting alone is not a new idea in employment tribunals. The general rule is that panels consist of a legally qualified employment judge and two lay members. Those members respectively are intended to have experience from the employee and the employer sides of industry. Since the mid-1990s, categories of cases have been set out in primary legislation where an employment judge can, subject to judicial discretion, sit alone at final hearings.
Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, I will speak on the two orders dealing with employment rights. I say at the outset that I oppose both of them. The first provides for an increase in the time that an employee must be in employment before they can claim unfair dismissal. At present, the employee must be in position for one year. The order increases this to two. It is not at all clear why. Surely it is possible for an employer to assess within one year whether an employee is suitable. Increasing the time to two years could involve difficulties, particularly for young people. Many people younger than 24 have not spent as long as two years in one job because of the current employment situation. I see no reason for the increase—and the majority of consultees disagreed with the proposal.
The second order seeks to remove lay representatives from tribunals, so that they will take place with a judge sitting alone. The reason for this proposed change is also unclear. It is opposed by the TUC, the CBI, the Engineering Employers Federation and Citizens Advice. The Government’s own paper states that of the consultees—there appears to have been some consultation—only 33 per cent were in favour of the proposal and 66.5 per cent were against. Surely it is understood that job loss, particularly for older people—and many of those involved are over 45—is a disaster not only for the employee but for their family, as they will probably face a long period of declining living standards and perhaps a reliance on benefits. If the dismissal is felt to be unfair, the trauma is even greater.
When industrial tribunals were first established, it was felt that cases could be heard in a relatively informal way, with lay people involved who had a knowledge of workplaces, and with a judge in the chair. It was thought that employees might not need legal representation since the hearings were such that the employee could represent himself or herself. A judge sitting alone would create a much more legal atmosphere—and of course, under the legal aid Bill currently before the House, no legal aid will be provided. I believe that the Government believe that more cases are likely to be lost in the set-up that they propose. I believe that this is part of a long-term project to decrease employment rights that have been built up over the past century.
The intention is that eventually lay people should be removed from the EAT—the appeal court—which will remove from the system lay people who have a knowledge of both sides of industry and commerce. It should be noted that organisations with a knowledge of the system believe that lay people provide a very useful element, bringing to bear workplace knowledge and often knowledge of local labour conditions in a way that a judge sitting alone may not do. Again, the Government intend to make it as difficult as possible for an employee to utilise the rights that they have, for which previous generations strove. Moreover, the paper that was issued indicated that the intention was that people would have to pay for the right to have a hearing. That, too, I oppose.
We have a low-wage economy in this country, and the Government are aware of that. Because employment is often badly paid, the benefits system supports low wages. Taxpayers are supporting employers who pay badly. Therefore, employers do not need the extra help of having employment rights removed because they already have the assistance of low wages. Should employees simply put up and shut up? Are working people simply disposable? Should we go back to the conditions that existed at the start of the last century, when employment rights were almost non-existent? The orders are a step in that direction. They are not acceptable and I oppose both of them.
Baroness Donaghy
My Lords, these are two shabby little measures that will lead to the further juridification of employment tribunals and encourage lazy management. I speak as someone who was a member of what used to be called the industrial tribunals. It is amazing how long that brand word has lasted, because even now, years after that name ceased to exist, a lot of people still call them “industrial tribunals”. I was a member from 1974 to 1989, a period of 16 years, when the whole employment regime was simpler. I acknowledge that employment law has become a lot more complicated, particularly in the area of equal rights. Nevertheless, I do not believe that that is an excuse for further eroding the role of lay members. I honestly believe that there have been attempts to undermine their role for the past 25 years. Every time a new Government come into office, the filing cabinet is opened, the file is dragged out and the new Minister is asked, “Can we do something about these lay members? They are very expensive and untidy. We need three phone calls instead of one. It would be much neater and tidier if we could get rid of them altogether”. Time and time again the TUC and the CBI have acted in unison and tried to indicate that the world of work is different from the world of the judiciary, and have said again and again that this would be a backward measure. I hope that they will say the same thing again this time.
I also speak as a former chair of ACAS, from 2000 to 2007, so I do not have any romantic feelings about employment tribunals. I fully acknowledge that they represent a failure of employment relations and that there is not always a similarity between employment legislation and employment relations. Sometimes they are the same, but as often as not they are different. When a case has to go to a tribunal, it represents a failure of employment relations, which is why the role of ACAS is so important. In fact, it diverts the majority of cases away from the tribunal service by persuading the employer to negotiate or the applicant to withdraw, or by giving advice in private to both parties as to how they can settle their case. If ACAS was not so successful then the tribunal system would have been swamped years ago. So I think we that can talk from certain knowledge about how important cases must be if they do end up before a tribunal. It is not always unreasonable people who come before one. I have never met anyone who willingly took their case to tribunal; they would always look for a different way.
You could almost say that the increase from one year to two years is traditional Conservative policy, just as decreasing it from two years to one year is traditional Labour policy. It could be left at that, saying that it is a purely political measure. But when you look at the world of work and the journals of the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development— I am a fellow of the CIPD—they say everywhere that you need to talk to your new employee on a regular basis; to use the probationary period wisely; and if there is any doubt at all about that employee—if they are not proving to be adequate—you have an outlet. You can extend the probationary period in discussion and agree on how the employee can improve themselves. There is absolutely no need to use the precipice of unfair dismissal eligibility for the promotion of employment relations. The two things are entirely different. To use it in this case is almost predictable.
The Minister spoke of generating jobs and growth by making it easier to sack people. In reply I would say: I don’t think so. He also said, “We value the role for lay members”. I am sorry, but that has a hollow ring to it. I do not think that they are valued, and I think that this is a way of further eroding their role. They are regarded as a bit of a nuisance and, slowly but surely, their role will be diminished over the years. Of course business wants the extension from one to two years. It is a bit like asking a child if they would like two bags of sweets instead of one. It is hardly surprising. Even the Government’s impact assessment says:
“We are unable to infer the causality between Unfair Dismissal (UD) claims and changes in the qualifying period. There are a wide range of variables other than unfair dismissal qualifying period that will impact on the number of unfair dismissal claims such as claimant count inflow. In periods of recession when more workers are dismissed, unfair dismissal claims rise”.
There is no objective justification. This is a purely political measure and we will live to regret both these measures.
Lord Cope of Berkeley
My Lords, perhaps I may start on something with which I agree. The underlying measures—the tribunals and the unfair dismissal legislation—were introduced by the Conservative Government in 1971 by our late, lamented colleagues Lord Carr of Hadley, who, sadly, died the other day. The basic set-up introduced at that time will remain. These are comparatively small changes to the way in which they operate. However, I am sure that we can all agree that job creation is extremely important at this time—as has been said from all sides, at different times—and that we will hear a lot more about that in the context of the Budget later this week, for example, regarding the growth strategy and all that sort of thing.
In my view this is also a small contribution in the same direction, particularly the qualifying period, which I am talking about at the moment, and which I welcome. I have had a lot to do with small businesses in my professional life, although that was quite a long time ago, and in my political life over the past few decades. The whole difficulty of running a small business by comparison with a large business is that the proprietor is on his own and has to think about a variety of things. A large business has a finance director to argue with the bank; a production director to deal with the mechanics of whatever you are producing and doing; a sales director who makes sure that customers are as happy as possible, and all that side of it; and a human resources director to look after the employment side and to make sure that even a small business does not trip up over some of the complicated employment law which we now have.
I am not complaining about the complexities overall. They have all been introduced for various good reasons over time. I have been involved in much of that in different ways and I understand why the various bits have been introduced. However, they add up to an awful lot of things for someone who is running a business to worry about. In that context, a proprietor has to worry about hiring new people, the difficulties of hiring new people and the problems that it may get him into. When he is uncertain about his markets, his finance and the state of his business, that is yet another thing to worry about. This qualifying period arrangement is a small movement to assist him to worry slightly less about that.
Lord Borrie
Does the noble Lord accept that after an employee has been engaged for some 18 months, it is right for that person to be arbitrarily dismissed with no legal remedy of any kind?
Lord Cope of Berkeley
It depends on what he has been dismissed for or what the argument is about. Let us not forget that he still has a lot of rights which can take him to a tribunal; for example, a whole lot of things can apply if the dismissal has anything to do with gender, sexual orientation or any of those things. But there is the question of whether an individual will fit into and is necessary to the firm. The Minister referred to training. Whether the individual concerned has worked out as both sides had hoped is also extremely relevant. All that is important. No one is taking away the ultimate right of unfair dismissal. All we are doing is shifting the one year to two years, as has been outlined.
On the composition, I entirely agree with the noble Baroness who said that originally the idea was that tribunals would be rather informal. Unfortunately, it has not quite worked out like that. This issue has become more complicated and more judicial. I disagree as regards whether having more people on the Bench, as it were, makes it more judicial or less judicial. One can look at that in different ways. However, the intention is to make it easier to arrange sittings, particularly when they have to be rearranged, as everybody knows happens from time to time. This measure will help speed up the process and in so doing reduce costs not only for the Government but for the businesses and trade unions that are involved, as they will know where they are. It is hedged about with safeguards, particularly the big safeguard that either side can request a full tribunal with appropriate lay members. That can be granted, and no doubt often will be granted when there is reason to do it. Some cases will be speeded up by this process. Therefore these two measures are small—I do not claim that they will change the world overnight—but useful improvements to the system, particularly in the interests of allowing small businesses to employ more people.
Lord Monks
My Lords, the UK has the third most flexible labour market among the OECD countries. I would like to explore what that means. Does it mean that we have the third best labour market in the OECD? I am afraid that it does not. Does it mean that we have the third most productive labour market in the OECD? It does not at all. Does it mean that we have the third best trained labour market in the OECD? It certainly does not. However, it does mean that we are in third place in terms of employers finding it easy to fire people unfairly and get away with it. It also means that we are in third place as regards employers being able to exploit the vulnerable and those most at risk, who often comprise young people, women and those who have the least hope of securing stable employment.
The changes that the Government are proposing in these two orders might just get us into second place in the OECD most flexible labour market league table. They will promote poor practice as opposed to good practice and encourage people to do things quickly and peremptorily rather than properly. There are a lot of myths about dismissal legislation. We should not forget that these measures are about unfair dismissal. Employers will win the cases that are taken against them if certain simple procedural rules are followed, particularly in the areas of competence and behaviour. Equality cases tend to be more complicated but if an employer warns a worker about a competence or behavioural matter, gives him a chance to improve and then takes the final decision, the employer wins. That is the reality of the case law that has developed since those provisions were introduced for the first time by Lord Carr, as the noble Lord, Lord Cope, has just reminded us. Irrespective of whether he has a small or a large firm, an employer should follow the basic procedures of giving people a warning and a chance to improve before taking a final decision. That seems to me eminently sensible good practice.
The effect of these measures will be to take thousands of workers out of scope—but for what? I simply cannot accept the argument that employers are sitting there thinking, “I am not taking on another worker because the qualifying period is too short”. I do not believe that it will lead to more recruitment and more jobs—although, as the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, rightly pointed out, if you are offering that to employers’ organisations they are bound to say, “Fine, it is a free gift, we will take it”.
I agree very much with what has been said on this side of the table about lay members, who have played a useful role in tempering the application of the law with some understanding of the realities of the workplace. I am glad that the employers’ organisations tend to agree with the trade unions on this. With due respect to judges, the realities of the workplace have not been their particular area of expertise, and they acknowledge that they have been helped. This order makes it a grace and favour provision for the legal chairman to choose whether he needs the lay representatives. That seems undignified and unfair, and it weakens the employment tribunal system in a way that will not be fatal but certainly will do it some harm in the eyes of many.
These measures are shabby, squalid and rather mean-spirited. They will not do anything for employment or for the British labour market, except to make it that much worse than it is at the moment.
Lord Scott of Foscote
I apologise to your Lordships, and to the Minister in particular, for not being here at the commencement at this debate. I intended to be, because I remember seeing this statutory instrument when it came in front of the Merits of Statutory Instruments Select Committee, of which I am a member. I made some remarks about it then and I had intended to make the same remarks here. I hope that what I am going to say has not already been said by somebody else.
The point I wanted to make does not relate to the reduction to one year for the bringing of an application for remedy for unfair dismissal. Unfair dismissal is a statutory remedy, and as the two-year period was fixed by statute it can be changed by statute—or, as here, by statutory instrument. However, I do not understand why it is thought necessary to put up to two years the right of a dismissed employee to obtain a written statement of the reasons for his dismissal.
Whoever has been unfortunate enough to be dismissed, whether or not he has a remedy to make a claim for unfair dismissal—and after this becomes law he will not have a remedy—he will want to know why he was dismissed. He is going to have to go back into the labour market and try to make himself a better employee, not so subject to dismissal as he was with his previous employer. Common courtesy ought to entitle the employee to be given the reasons for dismissal. Why has he been sacked? He needs to be given a reason. There may be other courses of action he may have against his employer for which it would be relevant for him to know why he had been dismissed. I cannot understand the policy behind requiring two years’ employment, rather than one year as previously, for the entitlement to be told why he has been dismissed.
I asked that question when the instrument was in front of the Merits Committee. Nobody knew the answer. My recollection is that the secretary of the committee went back to the department but did not get anything like a satisfactory answer. Perhaps the Minister could help with this. Why is it thought necessary to reduce the right of a sacked employee to be told why he has been sacked? Why must he be employed for two years before he is entitled to that very basic right, which ought to be a matter of common courtesy anyway?
Baroness Prosser
My Lords, I would like to make a couple of points. When moving the proposition, the Minister talked about the responses from employers welcoming the possibility of extending the period during which a person would be on trial, so to speak. That is not exactly surprising, is it? The point has been made around the Room—my noble friend Lord Monks described it as a free gift.
I am reminded of when employers were being asked for their views on the introduction of a national minimum wage. Their response was that its introduction would bring about the end of life as we know it and there would be no jobs made for anybody. In fact, the absolute opposite occurred. The fact that employers are claiming that this will be of great benefit and will encourage them to hire more workers seems to fall pretty far short of producing any real evidence in that regard. I cannot see for one moment that introducing this change will increase the opportunities for people to find employment.
Secondly, should this be introduced, women workers are likely to be hit harder than other employees, because, generally speaking, women change their jobs more frequently than men because of the pressures of other responsibilities. Can the Minister tell us if there has been any equality assessment of the impact of these proposals? Thirdly on the question of unfair dismissal, I would like to support the point made by my noble friend Baroness Donaghy. There would be much more to gain if there were more concentration on the need for management to be trained in how to manage.
The Chartered Management Institute assesses that only 13 per cent of people who are in management positions have ever had any training as managers, which is shameful. That would lead to difficulties when your employee is not up to scratch if after 12 months you could not say that they have had all the training they need. If the manager has had proper training, that matter can be dealt with in a way which is beneficial to the company, the manager and the employee. The cack-handed fashion in which a lot of these issues are dealt with is what leads to people going to the tribunal with a case that maybe is not as good as it might be, or people being dismissed for reasons which are completely and utterly unfair. Any manager who does not know whether an employee is good enough after 12 months needs to look in the mirror and ask who has the problem.
On the question of tribunals, I sat as a member of the Employment Appeal Tribunal for 11 years. When I worked in a law centre before I worked in the trade union movement, I represented people at employment tribunal level for six or so years. So I can speak with some experience of the value of lay members, and I can give two examples.
First, on many occasions, the judge has spoken to the applicant in such language that it is quite easy to tell that the applicant has not the vaguest idea what the judge is trying to tell him or her. So many times I have had to intervene and explain in words of one syllable what it is the person is being asked to do or to give further information on. Who will do that if there are no lay members on the bench? We will have people—who are not stupid by any means—but who are just not familiar with those kinds of phrases, that sort of language, those kinds of rules and regulations.
Secondly, on many occasions I had to explain to a judge whether a workplace situation that was being presented to the tribunal was something that was likely to happen, that was tolerable, or that would in the opinion of most people have led to certain dismissal or a very different outcome—because judges in tribunals do not have the experience of working on the shop floor or dealing day-to-day with people who work there. Not giving that information, advice and expertise to the judge, who no doubt has expertise of their own, would seem to be going down a path that is deeply unhelpful and could lead to decisions being made that are less than fair and less than accurate, and which do not take into consideration all the relevant issues. I hope that the Government will think again on these issues, but I will not hold my breath.
Lord Jones of Birmingham
My Lords, as a Cross-Bench Peer I find myself, on this side of the Committee Room, looking across at the labour relations first XV. I feel like a full-back at Twickenham who has just shouted “Mine” with the sun in his eyes and the All Blacks coming towards him. Perhaps I may start by paying tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy. When I was director-general of the CBI she was the chair of ACAS, and she did an incredibly good job. It is just a shame that we will probably disagree in the next five minutes.
The noble Baroness put it extremely well when she said that this was a political football. The Conservatives will vote for one year and Labour will vote for two years, as sure as the sun comes up in the morning. I am here to put neither case. I am not even here solely to put the business case, although I am sure that one or two noble Lords opposite will expect me to do so. However, if we in this country are to get ourselves out of the economic mess that was caused by so many contributory forces, we must trade our way out. We must generate jobs and wealth so that we make profits and pay tax, in order to reduce the deficit, build schools and hospitals and pay public sector workers what they deserve.
To do that, we must do two things more than anything else. We must be the acknowledged location of choice in the developed world for inward investment, and we must get smaller businesses in particular to take on one more person. Those two things on their own will generate a great deal of the wealth and the jobs that we need. For too long—I hope that the problems of the past two or three years have brought this into focus—successive Governments of both parties, as well as European legislation, have worked hard to help people in work keep their job, and have not concentrated enough on getting those who are out of work into it.
Whenever one talks to inward investors—Americans, Germans, Japanese; it matters not—they give one reason for coming here in greater numbers than anywhere else in Europe. We are number one by a mile—in the whole of the developed world we are number two only to America—because of what the noble Lord, Lord Monks, referred to as the flexible labour market. It does not mean that our workforce is the most productive, and certainly not that it is the best trained. In fact, those are both tragedies on which the noble Lord and I have often agreed. However, at the end of the day our reputation is that it is easier to deal here with mistakes of recruitment and the need to be mobile and light on our feet when it comes to maximising investment. It has to be easier on that basis to let people go.
Employers at that end of the game do not want to let people go because it costs a lot of money to recruit them. It costs even more money to train them. The noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, asked why managers in big companies are not well trained enough in the employment relations side of life. At the top end, especially with the overseas investors, you find that they are. They do not work on the basis of wanting to recruit people and thinking, “Well, I can get rid of them if it doesn’t work”. What they want is this aura, this feeling in the nation that we have a flexible labour market, of which only one little bit is this concept of an extension of more than one year. I do not want to get into the two years or one year because it smacks of tribalism. But these employers want the concept of being able to sort things out after a longer period than one year.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, has a point when he asks why someone who has been let go cannot at least receive written reasons as to why. That has nothing whatever to do with whether the period of time should be two years, 10 years or six months. A person is perfectly entitled to know why they have been dismissed both as a reference and as a reason for understanding. People do not like bad news but they prefer it to no news. In that respect, perhaps the Minister could go back and sharpen his pencil on that point.
One end of the labour market is about attracting inward investment; for example, Tata Motors is building a new engine plant in Wolverhampton, adding 1,000 jobs in a factory on a greenfield site. You will not see that in France, Germany or Italy. You would be lucky to see it in America. One of the reasons—although not the only reason by a mile—is the feeling that there is a flexible labour market, which includes being able to let people go.
Let me take the Committee to the other end of the labour market spectrum. Noble Lords who come from the Labour movement and the TUC will probably identify more with this and will find more fertile, efficient grounds on which to attack the proposition. The proposition is: can we get smaller businesses to employ just one more person and can we get smaller businesses to be this engine of employment growth in the nation? This proposal is dealing with making employers feel that they have the chance and the opportunity to make a mistake but will not fall foul of two or three issues that they are scared of every day.
One issue is of their own making. The noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, is absolutely right. The training qualification in management can be pretty poor. One of the reasons for that, as I heard here, is that on Monday, they are the finance director; on Tuesday, they are the sales director; on Wednesday, they are trying to clean the stairs; on Thursday, they clean the loos; and on Friday they go to see the kids. All that is seen as something that other people do until it lands on their desk because they have not gone through the right process and have not done it properly, and find that they have got a letter from the employment lawyer.
This proposal does not excuse in the slightest an effort that should be made by this Government, the CBI, the chambers of commerce, the Federation of Small Businesses and the local enterprise partnerships. Just like the CBI, the TUC finds it difficult but when it can it should reach into these places. There is no excuse for poor management of people at whatever level of employment or duration of employment. Small businesses fear that they are going to be caught up in something. Therefore, the default position comes in, which is that they will not employ someone. That is not always the case, but it is sometimes.
The second issue is the spectre hanging over the small business job market of constructive dismissal. So often the small businesses that these days I advise or champion tell the nightmare stories of people who handed in their notice; then, on the day before the three months or six months or whatever it was, the letter came in from the lawyer saying, “This person is going to say they were constructively dismissed. By the way, it is going to wrap you up in an employment tribunal. It is going to take your resource, time, effort and money. Tell you what, it could all go away now for a thousand quid”. I saw loads of letters like that, all without prejudice.
Lord Jones of Birmingham
“Not on my watch, guv’nor”. I was not at the CBI when that fight went on. That was the bailiwick of the noble Lord, Lord Turner, not mine. I always said, and I stand by this today, that it was a good thing to do, but the wage should never be set so high that people felt they could not afford it or it was inflationary. Because it has always been implemented very wisely, it has never had those two problems. We were fortunate that the economy had that Goldilocks aspect to it for many years after it was introduced. Many an alarmist employer would have said, “This will be the end of life as we know it”, but certainly not this one.
I am not saying that if this measure is not introduced, inward investors will not invest or small businesses will stop employing. We are not in that alarmist territory at all. All I am saying is that making it more flexible will create some jobs. We must start looking after those out of work and getting them into work, instead of only looking after those in work.
I am in favour of judges sitting alone, but only with the caveat that it is discretionary, that it will not always apply and that it will be left in the hands of the judge to decide every day. We have to get as much value for money as possible out of the system; we must not delay, obfuscate or obstruct. I would like to think that most cases will be heard with two lay people sitting with the judge. I think that will happen a lot and I am pleased that it will. But the judge should be given discretion. I will not fall for the argument that for some reason employment law is so special, specialised and expertise-driven that judges are not qualified to do this on their own. To my knowledge, most judges are not murderers, and yet they preside over murder trials without experts on either side. This is a special field, but so are many others.
Over the past 15 years we have lived through the continuing encroachment of employment legislation. I would love to know what the increase in employment tribunal hearings has been in the past 10 years. I do not know what it is, so I hope the Minister can provide me with that information. How many of those tribunals have involved people in the first or second year of their employment? I would love to know that. However, whatever those figures are, I know that a greater number of employment cases never get to a tribunal as the parties settle. The noble Lord, Lord Monks, said that good employers who have a good case will win at a tribunal. He is right, but the problem is the employer never gets there for anyone to find out. It is in a business’s interests to settle as that stops it committing further resources, time and money to the case. That smacks of blackmail and of saying, “We won’t let the system work no matter how well meaning it is because it is in the interests of wealth creation to get rid of a case”. You thereby create a compensation culture, which is surely what we have to avoid at a time when we need to get some wonderfully skilled people into the world of work for the first time in their lives. If this provision goes just a little way down the path of doing that, it may not be an answer to a maiden’s prayer but it will help us look after those who are out of work a bit better.
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen
My Lords, I do not have the expertise in this area that many of my colleagues on this side of the Committee have. However, I am a former trade union official, as many noble Lords know, and therefore I am very interested in employment legislation. I should declare an interest in that my husband is a member of an employment tribunal. Indeed, he serves on the central London tribunal. I know that the Minister was lucky enough to go to that tribunal and meet members of it last week.
I wish to make two small points. My husband has served on an employment tribunal for a number of years and I have heard about the cases in which he has been involved and have reached my own judgment on what we ought to be doing in the future. Some of what is being proposed is bothering me. I am well aware that when employment tribunals were first introduced there were industrial relations problems in this country. One of the reasons for bringing in employment tribunals was the hope that they would be a more informal way of sorting out the difficulties that arose in industrial relations issues on both sides of industry. By and large, I think they have worked very well over the years. Unfortunately, we may now be heading in the other direction, and that worries me. Two points worry me particularly. The first follows on from what the noble Lord, Lord Jones, said about job creation. Obviously, I am in favour of job creation, particularly given the position the country is in at the moment. The noble Lord talked about small businesses. My background is in small business. My father and both sets of grandparents had small businesses so I am well aware of the difficulties that can arise when taking on even one extra employee.
I am a little surprised about this measure because last October the Government produced their own statistics which showed that only 6 per cent of small and medium-sized enterprises said that employment legislation was a problem in relation to taking on staff. I understand that about 1,100 businesses were consulted. This means that 94 per cent did not say that employment legislation was high on their agenda in terms of difficulties. There were other problems higher up the agenda. I am rather surprised that this issue is being brought up five months later as something that is definitely stopping SMEs taking on even one extra employee. That is something which, as the noble Lord, Lord Jones, said, I would support.
My second point concerns the expertise of those serving on employment tribunals. We in this House have all come here because of our background and expertise in different areas. It is exactly the same with those who serve on tribunals. It is not just important that a judge sits with one lay person from each side of industry to discuss issues and listen to the evidence put before them; the expertise also comes out when they get together in chambers behind closed doors to discuss what they have heard. I have spoken to judges and I know that they value employment tribunal members from both sides of industry. They value the advice of the lay members and they pick up things which, if they sat alone—whether they are a man or a woman—they would not pick up. I cannot see how one person sitting alone would be better than three people in these circumstances. Perhaps the Minister will give a little more detail on why the Government think that one person alone would be better than three.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
My Lords, I support the proposals, which I consider balanced and sensible. I will declare some interests that are on the Register. I am a director of various companies that employ people. Therefore, we will take some benefit from the proposals if they are accepted. I believe that this would increase the likelihood that we would recruit people.
I read the debate that took place in the other place on Tuesday 13 March, but did not find it very helpful. An attempt was made to characterise the orders as a throwback to an earlier age, which was both unhelpful and unfair. Employers are not red in tooth and claw, as was suggested in the other place. The noble Lord, Lord Monks, asked why an employer, if they felt that they had a good case, did not just go through to the tribunal. The answer was given in part by the noble Lord, Lord Jones: it is the enormous time that it takes to get to a tribunal.
In the case I shall refer to later, it took a year to reach a tribunal and a further three months to get the case determined with a written judgment. A small business simply cannot wait for 15 months, with all that that implies for having to pay someone who is clearly disaffected. That is why you are going to a tribunal. There would be a difficulty in the system even if it were maintained as it is now. I do not argue that all employers are saints; far from it. However, as my noble friend pointed out in his opening remarks, and various other noble Lords have said, the basic protections for employees are maintained, with day one rights particularly in cases of discrimination, which are of particular relevance in smaller companies.
Why do I support the case for the extension from one to two years? All the businesses that I am involved with are hungry for talent, and hungry to keep a stable workforce. Hiring people is extremely expensive—and letting them go is expensive, too. It is expensive because they have to be replaced, and expensive in morale terms, because when people are let go, particularly in circumstances that are not their fault, the effect on the morale of the rest of the workforce is very great. By talent, I do not just mean the talent to shoot the lights out. I mean talent at every level to put in the time to carry out his or her allotted task with care, integrity and professionalism, to be a good colleague and team member, and to provide flexibility at times of strain within the organisation. In the business in which I am involved, when we discover that sort of talent at any level, we wish to nurture, engage with and develop it. We do this through the annual performance appraisal cycle. This is an important part of the reason we should extend it from one to two years.
Baroness Prosser
Is the noble Lord arguing that the best way to deal with “free riders”, as he described them—whom I don’t think anybody on either side of industry has time for—is through the extension of the period before protection comes along? Would he not agree that that is a really sensible argument for better management?
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
Clearly, it is an argument for good management. Identifying free riders is very important. Some people who promise quite a lot in the first few months are unable to sustain the work for various reasons. It is the performance appraisals cycle which sets deliverables and make it clear whether the person has delivered or whether the performance has, over time, drifted away and they have become a free rider. It is a sensitive interaction between what is practically laid down in the performance cycle and what management itself should be doing. There is no excuse for management not being prepared to grasp the nettle and make sure that any issue which clearly causes disaffection is tackled soon.
I turn to the employment tribunals order and the issue of whether a judge has the right to sit alone or can call for lay members. Based on my experience of the employment tribunals I have been involved with, the position has been that a judge has been able for the most part to undertake the work perfectly satisfactorily. I do not argue that this is always the case, but what does happen if you have three people sitting as opposed to one is that the time taken on the case is lengthened enormously.
Last year I was involved in a tragic case concerning an extremely talented man who had set up a small business in the video conferencing sector. I was not a director of the company but I had invested in it because I thought he was a rather talented bloke. Success had eluded him over a period of years and he had become increasingly irrational, and eventually the workforce of 10 to 15 people said to the directors, “It is either him or us. We cannot put up with him any longer”. The company had an internal conciliation process and I, along with another investor, was asked to sit down and talk to the chap. We did so, although it took four or five months to organise that. It was clear that he could accept no criticism of his performance because as soon as we said that, yes, the company had made some mistakes in the process but he was majorly at fault, he said, “Fine, I am going to an employment tribunal”.
It took a year to set up the tribunal, which had three people on it. There was really no dispute about the facts or anything else. This chap, for better or worse, very sadly could not accept that anything was wrong at all. A case that might have taken one or two days took six days, and it took three months for the judgment to be concluded. The result was, frankly, a tragedy. He lost his investment and eight or nine years of his life, during which he had spent all his time working on the business. I lost my small investment, which was a pity, but that was nothing compared with the 15 people who lost their jobs. One felt that the situation should have been capable of being grasped faster, and could have been dealt with more quickly, if it had been handled by one person, not three.
I would say to my noble friend that whereas the consultation document states that the objective is to,
“ensure that where parties do need to come to an employment tribunal, the process is as swift, user friendly and effective as possible”,
I know that there is no doubt that this case and many others that I hear about show that we are not as swift as we should be. If we are to have confidence in the system, we need swift justice because small businesses in particular find it extremely debilitating to have senior management devoted to preparing the case, sitting in on hearings, and in the mean time obviously having a disaffected employee.
I conclude by saying that I support the orders for the reasons I explained. They reflect my view of the changes that have taken place in recent years in both commercial and industrial practice, and they do so without weakening the safeguards we need to ensure that a proper equality of arms between employer and employee is maintained.
Lord Risby
My Lords, first, I apologise for arriving a few minutes late. In supporting the orders before us, I agree strongly with my noble friend Lord Cope. These are not issues that will change the industrial, commercial or employment landscape of the country, but they will certainly make a difference. I will refer to two articles in the papers today. One is by Mr Xavier Rolet, the chief executive of the London Stock Exchange. He points out that there are 4.8 million SMEs in this country, and asks us to “consider the impact” of what would happen if they were given an additional incentive to employ people—particularly young people, where we have a very big problem.
I was interested in the observation of the noble Lord, Lord Monks. Compared with many industrialised countries, we have a flexible labour market, but the truth is that in the eurozone, unemployment is running at 10.7 per cent while here in our country it is 8.4 per cent, which is still far too high. What is happening is that in terms of the UK’s global competitiveness, the World Bank now rates our labour market 35th in the world—down from 17th in 2007. Of course it is absolutely right that we should have proper, civilised protection for people in the workforce. There is no question about that. However, there is a question of balance.
Perhaps I may draw your Lordships’ attention to some issues for SMEs. I declare an interest as deputy chairman of a small business bureau. In the past few days I have spoken to a number of bureau members, to get their views on what we are discussing. I should add that in a previous life I ran businesses, both large and small, and so I know about the associated difficulties, particularly for smaller family businesses that employ between 10 and 30 people.
For SMEs, going to a tribunal is very time-consuming and stressful for both employers and employees. There is no question about that. However, as we heard from a number of noble Lords, for employers it can be a particularly difficult time. There is great anxiety in SMEs about taking on and retaining staff; I know that from experience. It comes on top of all the other issues such as access to bank funding, planning and management. Based on my discussions of the past few days, I suggest that if we can provide something that will give them a small additional opportunity to take on employees, we should support it. Certainly the CBI, the IoD and the British Chambers of Commerce said that the current arrangements were something of an inhibition to taking on additional staff.
It is certainly true that the world we inhabit at every level has become more litigious. For those people in a difficult economic environment, particularly in family businesses, this is a difficult time. That is why I support the orders. I will add simply that the CBI noted that SMEs accounted for 65 per cent of all new jobs created. Its view is that the extension to two years will be particularly beneficial to those without labour market experience. We all know about the tragedy of youth unemployment. As the economy recovers, if these proposals in some way encourage SMEs to feel that there are fewer disincentives to taking on young people in particular, I will support them—and I believe that they will.
I will turn briefly to the issue of tribunal composition. We need to remind ourselves of the discretion under the proposed arrangements. A full panel can exist in appropriate cases. I am not sure that it is appropriate for us to prescribe that that should be the case all the time. In fact, it is not. A principle was established by the previous Government, who decided to extend the scope of judge-only cases. Various surveys have taken place. In 2007 Michael Gibbons was appointed to review the circumstances under which employment judges could sit alone and add value for money.
Under the proposals, parties can consent to a judge hearing the case alone. There is no change there from the long-standing situation. The measures will put in the hands of the judge something that will give more flexibility. Some degree of judicial discretion, with defined criteria, will give judges an opportunity to decide, in consultation with those affected, whether to proceed on that basis. The order does not mandate the exclusion of panel members; it changes the basis for having them and will simplify the process.
I come back to my original point that we want a high level of protection in a civilised country. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Jones, said, we have a problem of international competitiveness. If it is possible through these measures in a small way to begin to deal with the terrific problem, in our country and the rest of Europe, of how to employ more people, I will certainly support them.
Lord Jones of Birmingham
Perhaps I may make two points. I was reminded by what the noble Lord said that I had omitted to declare my interests. If noble Lords refer to the Register, they will see that I am a director of many companies that would benefit from this measure. I am sorry that I did not mention that at the beginning. Secondly, I apologise to the chairman and the Minister as I have a very long-standing private engagement at 6.15 pm quite a few miles from here and I am already very late. I am sorry that I will not be able to listen to the Minister’s reply, but I shall read Hansard tomorrow with great interest.
Baroness Drake
My Lords, the Register of Lords’ Interests will show my 25 years’ membership of either the employment tribunal or the Employment Appeal Tribunal, so I declare that interest. I particularly want to speak to the issue of employment tribunal judges sitting alone on unfair dismissal cases because this measure has nothing to do with debates about job creation. The arguments on job creation are around the qualifying period for when entitlement to protection against unfair dismissal kicks in.
The impact assessment shows that lay members were paid a total of £9.78 million in 2009-10, so the measure that we are discussing is hardly a huge cost-saving exercise, and nor can it be a driver of the employment practices of small to medium-sized enterprises. I worry about the implications of moving towards an industrial jury system whereby employment tribunal judges increasingly sit alone in the heavyweight area of unfair dismissal. The impact assessment states that employment judges are competent to deal with the more “fact heavy” unfair dismissal cases. I fully recognise the competence of employment tribunal judges—their competence is not the issue, and I do not think that it is up for debate.
The noble Lord, Lord Jones of Birmingham, said that an employment judge could sit alone at a hearing because judges do so in murder trials. However, these are not criminal law cases, and the standards of evidence are not those of criminal law cases. That is the point. Employment tribunals are industrial tribunals based on the concept of a reasonable balance of probabilities and on all sorts of other concepts that have grown out of a judicial system that is focused on industry, not crime. The concept of industrial juries should not lose that importance. If one looks at the Employment Appeal Tribunal, the view is taken that employment tribunals have heard the facts and seen the relevant people, and that the decision taken is that of an industrial jury. Those decisions are not overturned lightly. There should be a compelling reason for interfering with an industrial jury decision. However, if it increasingly becomes the practice for judges to sit alone, the decisions will not be those of an industrial jury. The concept of an industrial jury, with practitioners from industry hearing industrial cases on a certain premise, will start to bring its own problems which may not be beneficial to employers.
The concept of an industrial jury is very important for another reason—fairness. Many claimants see a panel of three people when they appear before the employment tribunal—somebody from the employer’s side, somebody from the employee side and the judge. If the tribunal finds against the claimant, the impact of that decision is very powerful because everybody on that tribunal has found against him or her: but if the tribunal judge is sitting alone, the claimant is less likely to feel satisfied with the decision. I suggest that the claimant is more likely to want to argue with the judge and to pursue an appeal. The claimant will not receive the same powerful message as when an industrial jury makes its finding.
I turn to the concept of swift justice—what employers and particularly SMEs want. I will put the alternative proposition, which is that if you interfere with the integrity of the industrial jury concept in unfair dismissals, the number of appeals that will flow from that might well increase. The impact assessment states—on the basis of anecdotal rather than hard evidence—that when it comes to appeals made against the findings of a judge sitting alone as against those of a full panel,
“there is no significant difference between lodgement or success rates”.
However, we are moving to unfair dismissal cases with judges sitting alone, not the narrower issues that are weighted heavily towards payment disputes where judges currently sit alone. We are moving to the heart of activity in industry—disputes over whether a dismissal was fair or not—and taking away the industrial jury concept. There may well be a significant increase in the number of appeals. I must say, as a former trade union official, that if an industrial jury goes against you, you pause. I suspect that if an employment tribunal chairman sitting alone makes a decision, the disposition to go to appeal will be much greater. That is because you would be much more confident about disputing the findings of fact by an employment tribunal chairman sitting alone.
Unfair dismissal is a much more contested and emotional territory. The sense of getting a fair hearing in court is very important in terms of influencing the behaviour of claimants. The Government are unquestionably going to reduce employment rights through increasing the period before there is protection against dismissal to two years, and probably through more changes to employment rights that will come in the area of redundancy compensation. They are also looking to promote further the flexible labour market. It strikes me as unwise and counter-productive to seriously tamper at this point with the industrial jury concept. At the same time as people are getting anxious about the quality and availability of employment rights, the Government are taking away from the key area of unfair dismissal the guaranteed right of access to a tripartite industrial jury. That is a big risk for the sake of saving £9.78 million. I would not take it.
It says in the impact assessment—although I cannot find exactly where—that if claimants are not happy about a judge sitting alone hearing their case, they can put their reasoning to the judge as to why there should be a full panel. Some claimants who come before a tribunal are barely capable of prosecuting their own case, particularly if they are lowly paid or if English is not their first language. The idea that they can mobilise a set of arguments in support of why they should have a full panel as opposed to a judge is laughable. Equally, claimants who are unrepresented and put their own case, even if they are not in low-paid jobs and English is their first language, will be anxious and will not feel confident about legal procedures. They probably will have no idea of how to mobilise a set of criteria on whether their case should be heard by a judge alone or a jury sitting as a panel of three.
On the argument that there will still be judicial discretion as to whether a tribunal judge should sit alone or with lay members, the tribunal judges will be under their own pressures. They will be under pressure to keep costs down and to get the throughput of cases. I suspect that a tribunal judge who allows too many full-panel sittings will be called by the regional chairman and asked why his productivity statistics are lower than other people’s.
I worry seriously that at the same time as employment rights are being reduced—we may well see them further reduced—the concept of the industrial jury is under attack. One cannot have a concept of an industrial jury unless two lay members representing the two participating sides of industry are also representatives on those tribunals. Anybody with experience of dealing with unfair dismissal cases knows how, in the majority of cases, they can be very fact heavy, very contested, very emotional and very influenced by what is reasonable or normal practice in that industrial context. An intellectually brilliant employment tribunal judge may not have an understanding of what is ongoing or normal industrial practice in a particular industry.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I have left most of the detailed points to my front row. But the essential point that the Government need to address, which they have not done convincingly, is the point of evidence—evidence not anecdote. The noble Lord, Lord Jones of Birmingham, is undoubtedly right that when two or three businessmen are gathered together, the evening rarely ends without some complaint about employment legislation. But does that seriously change their behaviour? There ought to be that evidence because, as the Minister said at the beginning, we have changed the qualification period several times, both in general and in relation to the size of firm it applies to, from 1971 to 2012. We are therefore talking about 40 years of potential evidence that the qualification period made a significant difference to the way in which employers approached staff recruitment.
My colleagues have referred to huge problems concerning fairness, justice and the behaviour of management towards employees. There are also issues in terms of the behaviour of individuals towards employers. But the central economic point which would justify such a change in the regulation is whether that leads to fewer people being employed. In general parlance, it would seem a very strange move by the Government to suggest that we increase employment by making it easier to sack people.
However, there is no evidence to the contrary. No change is identifiable. We have a whole impact assessment of God knows how many pages here, which not only says that we are unable to establish whether the number of cases changes as a result of a change in the qualifying period, but there is not one word about whether recruitment or a decrease in employment follows a change in the qualification period. Unless it does, the central broad argument that the noble Lords, Lord Jones and Lord Cope, the Minister and others have put to us—that this will have a significant effect on the propensity of employers to take on new labour to help solve the youth unemployment problem—must fall. At best, it is unproven. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence, but no statistical evidence.
A lot of other issues affect employers’ behaviour. But, over that 40 years, with very clear break points in the qualification period, one would have hoped that the statisticians available to the department would have been able to exclude or at least minimise the effect of those other considerations and have been able to identify that a clear change took place in the propensity, particularly of small businesses, to take on more employees once the qualification period had changed.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, following the same line of thought as my noble friend Lord Whitty, the section of the document beginning on page 25, which is headed:
“Resolving Workplace Disputes Government Response: Overarching IA Evidence Base”,
kicks off by saying that the “Problem under consideration” is that “Employers are worried”—employers this, employers that and employers the other. That is what you might call the Mandy Rice-Davies approach to evidence—it may be good or it may be bad but it is not what most of us would be looking for when we think about evidence.
On page 28, after it says:
“The Government will therefore commission an independently chaired fundamental review of the relevant procedural rules, and will ask the judiciary and other stakeholders to play a full part in that review process”,
paragraph 18, which is what I would like the Minister to comment on, says:
“There is therefore little to be gained by introducing major rule amendments now that may shortly be undone or altered as a result of the fundamental review. Further, reform at this stage should seek to avoid any risk of introducing more inflexibility and prescription when that is what the fundamental review is designed to strip away”.
Then there is a sentence that I think can be translated slightly differently from what is on the page:
“However, after an assessment of the evidence submitted in response to the consultation, the Government believes that a more limited set of reforms can be implemented without awaiting the review’s recommendations”.
In other words, as I read it, “We have got a political doctrine that is fundamental to the nature of what you might call the evidence”. Whether or not that is what a judge would normally consider to be the sort of evidence on which a jury should take a decision is rather problematical.
The other point I wish to make relates to that. The anecdotal nature of what is being said is not the way in which you would expect the two sides, if I can call them that, to relate to each other. One anecdote is worth as much as another. That is why the system of Explanatory Notes introduced some years ago is vital to getting good legislation and why we should be very careful about the nature of evidence.
Finally, on a slightly different plane, the noble Lord, Lord Jones of Birmingham, and other noble Lords on the other side have made very general remarks about the monstrous flow of legislation that is making life difficult in this country. If one looks at employment and unemployment in Germany, where the mittelstand offers much more in the way of management training and so on than we do, one wonders why the Government’s kneejerk reaction to almost any problem is to listen to employer’s anecdotes and to accept them as the main base of evidence. The Prime Minister now says that it is a good idea to take a look at Germany. If the Germans saw the basis on which we take our decisions about employment and what generates employment, I do not think that they would see other than a caricature about what you might call a “top-end” and the “well mannered dog business”. We have a vast number of mittelstand-type businesses in this country and many of them are undertrained. It is a long process, but this kneejerk recourse to the worst sorts of politicking with the British industrial system is not a creative solution.
Lord Razzall
My Lords, it looks as though I have to declare those interests and companies that I have set out in the Register of Members’ Interests, although whether they will benefit from the passing of these orders will depend on whose arguments are correct. I have some sympathy with the points that have been made from both sides of the Committee—although having read particularly the debate in the other place, one would have thought that, from the Labour side, these proposals were going to take the country back to the days of the Tolpuddle Martyrs and, from the government side, that all the problems of unemployment in this country will be solved by passing this order.
I do not share either of those views. This is not part of an agenda designed to take us back to the dark days of poor trade union relations or poor employment relations. I have every confidence in the Secretary of State, who happens to be a member of my party, to ensure that that will not happen. As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and one or two other Members on that side have indicated, there is a danger that one can overstate the opportunity for passing this order to extend the period of unfair dismissal from one year to two years. One can overstate the argument. Indeed, as the noble Lord said, most of the evidence in the survey saying that this will have an effect is anecdotal. He put it rather well when he said that if you get three employers having a drink in a pub—I do not know why he picked Hertfordshire—that is what they will complain about.
However, as someone who has been involved for a number of years in the SME sector, I believe that there is a marginal case here for saying that employers are nervous of taking on new employees in small businesses because of the impact of the unfair dismissal rules. There is a case for saying that if they were marginally relieved from one year to two years, people would be taken on.
One point that has not been made is that there is very little evidence that under the current one-year rule many unfair dismissal cases are brought by people who have worked between one and two years. There are very few such cases, which leads me to think that what happens is that people take advantage of the one-year rule to lay people off before they get into the unfair dismissal bracket. If we extend that to two years, action will not be taken until they approach the end of the second year, which will add employment of a further year for people who have been taken on. It will also mean that if somebody knows that they can get rid of somebody who turns out not to be very good before the end of two years rather than one, in some cases they may be more prepared to give that person appropriate training that will keep them in employment for longer.
I will make a point about the context in which the orders were put forward. One does not have to be privy to the inner secrets of government—one just has to read the newspapers or watch television—to realise that a huge battle is going on over how our employment legislation should be framed. Mr Adrian Beecroft has been commissioned to look at the laws. He starts from the proposition that almost all employment regulation and restriction should be swept away. On the other hand, a number of people in both governing parties want to see a significant improvement in family-friendly policies such as paternity leave and maternity leave.
While the battles rage, I very much hope that noble Lords will come out on the right side of the arguments. There is no doubt where I stand on them, and I suspect that there is no doubt where the Secretary of State stands on them. If the proposals come to your Lordships' House, I hope that they will be resisted. In the mean time, this is a modest proposal, and if it is the price we pay for averting something that might be a lot worse, I urge noble Lords to accept it.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction, even if I did not agree with most of it. It will be no surprise that we oppose the proposals both on unfair dismissal and on lay members. I could not help smiling when the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, suggested that there was some overegging of the pudding. It is true that I could not find the transportation clause in the impact assessment. However, that is not to say that the measure will not have a profound effect.
My premise for being so opposed to it is that if one wants to give small employers—the measure is focused on them—some help and assistance, is this really what one wants to focus on, rather than the quality of management? I could not help reflecting on that. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, spoke about waiting for the annual appraisal. With a new recruit, would that be the first time one gave any assessment? As a small employer, it would be one’s first problem if one waited until the end of the year. One would need to look at a new recruit a lot earlier than that.
My noble friend Lady Donaghy pointed out that a probation period can be extended and that therefore this is not the best bit of advice one could give a small or medium-sized employer. Where they make mistakes is in the quality of management. That is why so many employment tribunals are seen as almost a fait accompli because they know that they do not have a proper set of procedures. I have seen that on many occasions. We have even seen things like the failure to issue a contract of employment. I encountered many people who have complained about the terms of their employment, but when I asked them, “Where is your contract of employment?”, they said that they did not have one. When we have management failure on that basic level, saying that extending unfair dismissal will encourage them to hire more people means, to me, that the Government really cannot see the wood for the trees.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am very grateful for all the comments from all around the Committee. I will attempt to answer all the questions. I hope your Lordships have some time available because it might take a while. If I do not manage to answer all the questions, I will, of course, write with a considered response.
The Unfair Dismissal and Statement of Reasons for Dismissal (Variation of Qualifying Period) Order is especially necessary for businesses employing people who need to possess a high level of skill. The noble Lord, Lord Young, picked me up on that a moment ago, so let me say a few words about that. Given the importance to the nation’s future growth—which my noble friend Lord Cope spoke about—of value-added products, services and exports in areas such as clean technology, biomedical science, high-tech manufacturing and ICT, as well as many seemingly quite mundane businesses which nevertheless rely on some complicated technology, the quality and depth of skills are vital to an ever increasing number of firms.
I am speaking from personal experience of running an IT business. For those employees who have yet to gain the full skill set necessary, frequently a lot of time has to go into training and assessing whether they have the aptitude to learn the skills and carry out all aspects of the job. For employees who arrive with that training, it can still take quite a long time to assess whether they really do have the skills they claimed on their CV, particularly, as is often the case, when the employer or manager’s own field of expertise is different from the employee’s.
There are two further important factors. First, most employers would want to give someone the chance of continued employment for as long as reasonably possible. However, it is a fact that, under the current regime, some employers decide that it is not worth the risk of retaining someone beyond the end of the first year if there is an element of doubt that they will make the grade. Secondly, as the noble Lord, Lord Jones, said, it is important to have in mind the expense and time involved in recruiting a new employee. It was one of the things that took up most of my time as my business expanded. No one in his right mind would dismiss such a skilled employee if he did not feel he had to, so giving the employer a further year to make up his mind is certain to save some people’s jobs.
The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, asked how we justify the change when the evidence is that it will disproportionately affect young people at a time of high youth unemployment levels. Our top priority is to boost business confidence to take on staff. Young people out of work will benefit from increased employer confidence to recruit. We are serious about tackling youth unemployment. On 15 December 2011, we set out our strategy for helping young people to access education, training and work, and this strategy includes measures to offer more and higher quality apprenticeships, and a youth contract to help get young people learning or earning.
Lord Lea of Crondall
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, but he has changed the ball park completely now. Instead of saying that we have evidence, he is saying that we have a problem of perception. If there is a problem of perception, it is the Government’s job to change the perception, unless it is evidence.
Lord De Mauley
Exactly, and that is what we are trying to do.
The noble Lord, Lord Young, referred to the Government’s focus for growth on small and medium-size enterprises, for which the impact of a tribunal case is often greatest. This measure is intended to deliver a decrease in the number of cases being lodged against small and medium businesses. A two-year period will also give them enough time fully to assess new members of staff and to benefit from skills retention in cases where they might otherwise have dismissed an employee in borderline cases because they do not have the access to sophisticated HR and legal resources.
The noble Lord, Lord Young, also suggested that this could lead to an increase in the number of discrimination cases. I do not buy that assertion. Already, discrimination actions are frequently brought simultaneously with unfair dismissal claims. That suggests to me that, if a discrimination claim has a reasonable chance of success, it is already being made. Indeed, because there is a time limit on making such a claim, it is already now important that, if a discrimination claim is to have a chance of succeeding, it is made simultaneously, so we cannot see that reducing the availability of unfair dismissal as a route will lead to a significant increase in discrimination claims.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, asked about the changes to the written statement of reasons. The statement of reasons is linked to the qualifying period and the specified fair reasons for dismissal, which are set down in law. The objective of the qualifying period is to provide both parties with time to get the working relationship right. If it does not work out, this will not necessarily correspond to one of the specified fair reasons for dismissal. Of course, the employee can ask for a written explanation and I cannot see any reason why an employer would not provide it.
Lord Scott of Foscote
Would not a reasonable solution be to say that the period of notice to which the dismissed employee was entitled would not begin to run until he had been provided with a statement of the reasons for his dismissal?
Lord De Mauley
Perhaps I may take that back to the department. I cannot give the noble and learned Lord an answer immediately, but I will write to him, if I may, on that. I am grateful to him for the suggestion.
The noble Lord, Lord Jones, spoke about SMEs taking on employees. He is absolutely right to focus on the benefits that this measure might bring. If every small business took on just one more person, there would be 4 million more people in employment.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, and the noble Lord, Lord Young, pointed to BIS’s survey, which shows that 6 per cent of business view regulation as a barrier to recruitment. In fact, the SME Business Barometer asked small businesses what their main barrier to growth was. The survey does not show that businesses are not concerned about regulation, but business responses to consultation and employer representative surveys on the matters that we are discussing today clearly show that dismissal rules are a concern when recruiting staff.
On the draft Employment Tribunals Act 1996 (Tribunal Composition) Order 2012, calls for reform of the employment tribunal and the wider employment law landscape are not new. In so far as the role of lay members is concerned, Michael Gibbons recommended to the last Government in 2007 that they should review the circumstances in which employment judges can sit alone in order to ensure that, as my noble friend Lord Cope said, value is maximised. The British Chambers of Commerce recommended in 2010 that lay members should be abolished. Since then, survey evidence suggests further support for reform in relation to unfair dismissal hearings. For example, 87 per cent of clients responding to Pinsent Masons’s 2011 employment tribunal survey supported the Government’s then proposal to allow judges to sit alone in simple unfair dismissal proceedings. Academic research from Greenwich and Swansea includes some interesting data. For example, despite perceptions from judges—the noble Lord, Lord Monks, specifically referred to this—and members that members add value in unfair dismissal cases, the number of instances where panel decisions were anything other than unanimous was very small. Across a sample of 191 judges who all hear cases on multiple occasions, there were only 77 majority decisions, of which 60 had one or other of the lay members as the dissenting voice. Given the safeguards built in, with judges retaining the option to determine whether lay members are required in order to deal with the case justly and with judicial decisions made against statutory criteria, including an assessment of the wishes of the parties, the additional flexibility would allow the tribunals to obtain best value for money when deploying lay member resources.
Employment judges are already permitted to sit alone in a range of proceedings, including claims for breach of contract, unauthorised deduction of wages, certain redundancy and national minimum wage complaints, and “holiday pay” cases. While the range of such cases will increase under this order to include unfair dismissal cases, the use of lay members will continue. There is no plan to remove the role of lay members in employment tribunals entirely. The Government recognise and value the expertise which they bring to the system. This order is about replacing prescription with flexibility. It costs the taxpayer more than £80 million a year to fund the employment tribunal system. Lay members account for about £10 million of that sum. It is right to look at how the system deploys and utilises the expertise lay members bring so that they are deployed where they are most needed.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Turner and Lady Donaghy, referred to the fact that the Trades Union Congress believes that the proposal to remove lay members from unfair dismissal cases is a step too far. The TUC asserts that the Government want to remove lay members from unfair dismissal cases, but that is not the effect of the order being debated. As I have said, this order gives judges discretion. Lay members can and will be deployed if they add value, but judges will be able to sit alone wherever that would be better. Where lay members would not add value, it is not right that inflexible legislation should mandate their deployment anyway.
The noble Baronesses also referred to the fact that 63 per cent of those responding to the consultation opposed it, which I acknowledged in my opening remarks. Our consultation was not a referendum, nor should government consultations ever simply turn on weight of numbers alone. We set out proposals and looked to find evidence on the substance. Nothing that consultees said persuaded us that employment judges are not best placed to determine how an unfair dismissal case should be determined, particularly when it is the judge who has the circumstances of the individual case to hand, and not your Lordships when considering framework legislation. We acknowledge that there are some unfair dismissal cases, such as those where there is a significant dispute around the facts of the case, which might be more appropriate for a full panel to hear. Indeed, this was accepted in the consultation paper and our response document. But there will equally be claims which an employment judge sitting alone will be perfectly well qualified and able to determine.
The noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, suggested that there was a risk that employment judges are insufficiently in touch or in tune with industrial good practice. Employment judges come from a wide variety of backgrounds and many have practical experience of managing staff. The fact that a judge might not be in tune with industrial good practice does not necessarily make them less likely to be able to assess evidence. What is critical, irrespective of the nature of the proceedings, is that the person making the determination is able to assess the evidence presented to him or her. Employment judges are trained specifically for this purpose and they carry out their functions to the highest of standards. In fact, the academic research from Greenwich and Swansea suggests that lay members may not always have relevant and recent experience in industry themselves. Indeed, it reported that there was a broad perception that they had less direct workplace experience than previously may have been the case.
My noble friend Lord Hodgson asked whether it was the Government’s view that judges sitting alone will speed the process up. We certainly intend that it will. We will be monitoring that closely. The noble Baroness, Lady Gibson of Market Rasen, asked how one person can be better than three.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
My Lords, the point about speeding up refers to speeding up the process as a whole. I agree with that point but if the Minister’s department can spend some time trying to make the wheels of justice grind faster, it would be very helpful. Small firms find this long elapse period very debilitating.
Lord De Mauley
I am most grateful to my noble friend for that point and we will certainly bear it in mind. As regards the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, about one person being better than three, her noble friend Lady Donaghy said that the Government’s support for lay members rings hollow. But I assure noble Lords that we value lay members, as do employment judges, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, and others have said. Judges will sit with lay members where they add value. Judges are expert in employment law and they see cases every day. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Jones, said, value for money is important.
The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, said that the industrial jury concept should not be disturbed and suggested that the tripartite panels give confidence, legitimacy and authority to the tribunals. In common with all other types of complaint that might be heard by an employment judge sitting alone, the judge will have, as I have said several times, discretion where he or she thinks it necessary to choose to sit with lay members. Despite the scepticism of the noble Baroness, this discretion, alongside the professionalism and expertise of employment judges, which stakeholders from all perspectives have recognised, should mean that all users maintain the same high levels of competence in the system as now. Civil courts up and down the land have lone judges making decisions and that is not just in criminal cases, as the noble Lord, Lord Jones, mentioned.
The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, also suggested that the potential benefit may not be worth it. Predicting what savings will be made across the 10,000-plus unfair dismissal complaints heard each year is difficult, given the need for judges to exercise discretion and assess what cases might require full panels. The savings, which were conservatively estimated in our impact assessment, might not be considered significant but as a Government we must take all measures to ensure that taxpayers’ money is used to best effect.
The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, who quoted the impact assessment, asked why we are legislating now rather than waiting for the Underhill recommendations. The terms of reference for the Underhill review relate clearly to procedural rules. The constitution and composition of the tribunals, as distinct from the procedural rules, particularly given the resource implications associated with judicial and member sitting, is a matter properly for Ministers and for Parliament. Furthermore, there is no reason to await the outcome of the Underhill review when the Government have concluded that there is a case for change.
The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, asked about fee charging in an employment tribunal. Although this is not one of the matters we are principally discussing today, let me say that most people will never use an employment tribunal in their lives; yet the taxpayer funds the system at a cost of £85 million. The objective is to transfer the cost burden from taxpayers to the users of the system.
I appreciate the points that have been raised. I will go away and reflect on them carefully. Certainly, if there is anything on which I have not responded, I will write to noble Lords.
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen
The Minister’s response has shown how controversial these issues are. It has always been the practice that we have discussed in the Moses Room things that are not controversial. Usually when I am in the Moses Room I am in the chair, so I am able to listen to everything that is going on. Will there be a possibility of these orders being discussed in the Chamber? I do not know who took the decision to have them in the Moses Room. I think that this discussion should have been held in the Chamber.
Lord De Mauley
The noble Baroness makes a fair point. Under the process we are going through today, we are asked to consider. We are not asked to come to a final conclusion. As the noble Baroness knows, these orders will come to the Chamber. I believe that there is the chance that the Opposition may lay a Motion.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I do not know whether the usual channels have yet exchanged views on this but I think that they will soon—I think on that we can rest assured.
Earlier, someone paid a short tribute to Lord Wedderburn.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I should like to echo that. The debate would have gone on considerably longer but, nevertheless, he made a massive contribution to employment law and is sadly missed today.
Lord De Mauley
I entirely support that comment by the noble Lord, Lord Young. I commend the order to the Committee.
Unfair Dismissal and Statement of Reasons for Dismissal (Variation of Qualifying Period) Order 2012
Lord De Mauley
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Unfair Dismissal and Statement of Reasons for Dismissal (Variation of Qualifying Period) Order 2012.
Relevant documents: 41st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
House of Lords
Economy: Quantitative Easing
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Barnett
To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed the latest increase in quantitative easing.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, the independent Monetary Policy Committee has operational responsibility for monetary policy. The MPC judged in February 2012 that without further monetary stimulus it was more likely than not that inflation would undershoot the 2 per cent target in the medium term. The Chancellor agreed that an increase in the asset purchase ceiling would provide the MPC with the scope to meet the inflation target in the medium term and gave his authorisation to proceed.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. That increase was initiated by the Monetary Policy Committee but, under the terms of the original agreement in 2009, the Chancellor had to give his consent—which I assume he did. The current Chancellor took over that policy. As I understand it, he said at the time that it was a “leap in the dark”, designed because all other government policy had failed. Does he still feel that that is the case, or has he changed his mind? What does he now expect from QE?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I reiterate that the MPC has operational control and freedom here. The Government, on behalf of the taxpayer, indemnifies the Bank against losses, so of course any increase in the limit of the asset purchase facility has to be authorised by the Treasury. As to what people’s quotes might be, I know that I get into trouble if I start questioning whether the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, has correctly quoted my right honourable friend. I am sure that he did, but in completely different circumstances. The situation now is that we have tight fiscal policy. Against that discipline, the monetary policy of the Bank of England can be conducted with confidence. Tight fiscal discipline and loose money is the policy prescription. I suspect that that was not the policy prescription when my right honourable friend made that quote.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, can the Minister tell us of the effect of QE in helping lending flow through to SMEs? We hear about feast and famine with regard to lending to SMEs. Has QE really helped in banks lending to SMEs?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, the estimate of the effect of QE was set out in the Bank’s Q3 quarterly bulletin in 2011. The Bank estimates that quantitative easing raised real GDP by around 1.5 to 2 percentage points, so it has had a very significant impact on the real economy. As to the flow of credit to SMEs, that is not the purpose of quantitative easing. The purpose of quantitative easing, as I have attempted to explain, is for the Bank of England to meet the 2 per cent medium-term inflation target. Credit easing is a government policy and, in the next few days, details of the £20 billion national loan guarantee scheme will be unveiled. It is targeted at credit easing for SMEs, which is still a very important issue.
Lord Newby
My Lords, will the Minister underscore his last comment in that credit easing is now seen as crucially important in getting funding into SMEs? Can he confirm reports in the papers yesterday that the overall impact or scope of credit easing might not be the £20 billion which he has just mentioned but might increase over time to £40 billion?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am certainly not going to pre-empt any announcements this week of that kind or any other, or I may not be here to answer the next Question at the Dispatch Box. I think that the £20 billion, which has already been announced, and reducing the interest rate that SMEs would otherwise have to pay by the order of 1 per cent would be a very good start.
Lord Peston
My Lords, can I ask the Minister whether he agrees—which he seemed to say—that quantitative easing is part of monetary policy? If it is part of monetary policy, what business is it of either the previous Chancellor or the present one to claim that they have a decision-making role in this matter, since the Bank of England Act makes it absolutely clear, when discussing the reserved powers of the Treasury, that they can intervene only if they lay before both Houses of Parliament an order authorising them to intervene? Have not the Chancellor of the Government whom I supported and the present Chancellor both been acting illegally?
Lord Sassoon
No, my Lords, even the previous Chancellor, I am happy to say, was not acting illegally in this matter and the current Chancellor certainly is not. As I have already explained to the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, the only reason for the Chancellor having to authorise this is because HM Government indemnify the Bank for any losses that it may suffer by exercising purchases under the asset purchase facility.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that over history printing money has usually, if not always, led to inflation? If he does agree, can he tell your Lordships why quantitative easing will not do so this time?
Lord Sassoon
No, my Lords, I certainly will not. It has actually led to inflation already. In the estimates made by the Bank of England in the third quarter bulletin in September last year, it was estimated that quantitative easing had raised UK inflation by around 0.75 to 1.5 per cent. I firmly believe that the greater benefit of raising real GDP by around 1.5 to 2 per cent was what really mattered in the economic circumstances in which we find ourselves. Then the question is what happens to the unwinding of QE? The stock will be held and sold back into the market in due course.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, the noble Lord’s reference to growth of GDP is rather odd, since that is no responsibility of the Monetary Policy Committee. Its responsibility is for inflation and, as he said, it added to inflation last year which, as noble Lords will remember, was already at 5 per cent. How does the noble Lord judge the success of QE and how is it to be balanced against the decimation of the annuities of hundreds of thousands of pensioners as a result?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, first it continues to be the judgment of the MPC that if it had not acted on this operation under the asset purchase facility inflation would undershoot the 2 per cent target in the medium term. I remind this House that inflation has already come down from 5.2 per cent on a CPI measure last September to 3.6 per cent in January and is expected by the Bank, and most other commentators, to fall very considerably during this year. The success of QE will be measured on the performance of inflation.
As to the question of savers and pensions, as the deputy governor, Charlie Bean, said on 21 February:
“While annuity rates have fallen, that is only part of the story. Those pension funds will typically have been invested in a mix of bonds and equities, with perhaps a bit of cash too. The rise in asset prices as a result of quantitative easing consequently also raises the value of the pension pot, providing an offset to the fall in annuity rates”.
Banking: Accounting Standards
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Flight
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any plans to review the application of international financial reporting standards accounting standards to the banking sector.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, following the financial crisis, the International Accounting Standards Board has taken steps to revise international valuation standards for complex financial instruments. The question of whether there should be a distinct accounting regime for banks was raised in the preliminary report of the Financial Reporting Council inquiry into going concern, chaired by my noble friend Lord Sharman. The panel is considering the response to this report at present. We await its final report with interest.
Lord Flight
My Lords, in reply to a question on 19 December the Chancellor of the Exchequer advised that there needed to be a debate about the role of IFRS in the banking crisis. On 19 January, the head of financial stability at the Bank of England commented in a speech that banks needed accounting standards other than IFRS. Does the Minister agree that IFRS contributed to the banking crisis, as it served both to exaggerate profits and capital in good times and vice versa in bad times, and is in need of review?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, having a look at accounting standards in relation to banks is certainly significant. I would not go as far as saying that IFRS had a fundamental role in relation to the financial crisis. There is not significant evidence of that although, as I have had it rather neatly described, you could perhaps describe accounting standards as an accomplice after the fact rather than as being responsible. There are issues that very much need to be looked at. The review that the IASB is doing, very much with the encouragement of the G20, of the financial instruments standard known as IFRS 9, the work that the Financial Reporting Council is doing, which I have referred to, the inquiries coming out of your Lordships’ committee and the most recent hearing last week will all contribute to an important ongoing debate.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister aware that my noble friend Lord Flight is on to a very important point? It is quite clear that accounting standards have created a major reduction in stability in the banking sector. They had a major part to play, and IFRS has simply made this worse. Has my noble friend the Minister read the Hansard report of the debate in the Grand Committee of Wednesday last week, in which these matters were among those discussed? If not, will he please do so and will he also listen to what Mr Andy Haldane, the director of banking stability at the Bank of England, which is responsible for these matters, has had to say on them?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I have not read every word that was said in the Committee last week, but I have certainly read the very interesting remarks of my noble friend Lord Lawson of Blaby and the very challenging seven proposals that he made, many of which the Government are already acting on in the structure of banking and regulation. I do not dismiss this issue at all, but there is a tension between the transparency and other requirements of investors on the one hand and the requirements of prudential regulators on the other. There are very difficult issues of conflicting objectives here, which it may be impossible for one set of figures fully to reconcile. However, I take my noble friend’s suggestions very much to heart.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, as the noble Lord pointed out, the Financial Reporting Council is playing an important role in reviewing the IFRS proposals. However, the FRC also seems to be contemplating the abolition of the UK Accounting Standards Board. Do the Government agree with this, and will it not leave the UK without the expertise and credibility necessary to make an effective contribution to the international debate?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, the structure of the various bodies that fall under the Financial Reporting Council is a matter for the Financial Reporting Council. I do not believe for one minute that anything it does to the structure of the number of bodies under the FRC will weaken the very distinguished and important contribution which the UK makes to international standard-setting.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, has the fatal flaw not been the ability of banks and other financial institutions to book future projected income as profits—profits which did not materialise and on which bonuses were paid, thereby skewing the incentives of the whole financial sector industry? There is a time here for reassessment, and that is a black hole at the centre of these proposals.
Lord Sassoon
Again, this is an important issue. The Government have taken significant steps to increase both the transparency and the FSA rules around the payment of bonuses. However, we should be careful about this. First, it is worth noting that under UK GAAP, before IFRS was introduced, banks were required to account at fair value for their trading portfolios. Of course, accounting at fair value requires assets to be marked both up and down. It is certainly the case that under IFRS there were certain portfolios that previously would not have been counted as trading portfolios, which now are. However, we have to be very careful about attributing all that went on with banking bonuses to the accounting requirements. If I may suggest so, that was a small part of what was undoubtedly a series of inappropriate behaviours at the heart of the industry.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, given the importance of the matters to which my noble friend has alluded in answering this Question, might he put a plain Peers’ guide to the intricacies of the various bodies he has enumerated in the Library?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I will see what I can do. I have mentioned everything this afternoon from the G20 through to the Bank of England, the FSB and the FRC. I will see what I can do, but it is a big ask.
UN: Sustainable Development and Family Planning
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Baroness Tonge
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will promote the connection between sustainable development and family planning at the Rio+20 United Nations Conference on Sustainable Development.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, the coalition Government’s positions on sustainable development and family planning are clear. We will be emphasising the links between them, both in the preparations for and during the Rio+20 conference.
Baroness Tonge
I thank my noble friend for that reply. I congratulate the Government on their commitment to family planning and to stabilising the world’s population by choice. This is essential for sustainable development. However, will the Minister confirm that the Government will seek to have family planning included in the post-millennium development goals framework when it is discussed?
Baroness Northover
The noble Baroness has contributed enormously in this area and I thank her very much for the tribute paid to the department for its expansion of work on this issue. The Government are well aware of the background to the initial MDG negotiations. Discussions are very much in the early stages for a post-MDG framework post-2015. The UK will work to ensure that all the relevant development issues are included in the most appropriate way possible.
Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead
My Lords, it is welcome news that the European Union plans to propose a new section to the Rio+20 outcome document to include population and health, and reproductive health and contraception. Will the Minister assure the House that efforts will be made by DfID to ensure that the delegation to the Rio+20 conference includes a representative who will be able to champion and lead on these issues, and will also be able to ensure that the linkages between population, reproductive health and family planning with sustainable development are understood?
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I will take that specific suggestion back. I point out to the noble Baroness that the Deputy Prime Minister is leading this delegation to Rio and I am very pleased that that is the case. She will know how he has emphasised the importance of placing women and girls centre stage with regard to development, which is what is required here.
Baroness Afshar
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the most effective family planning in the Third World comes through education—that is what makes women into an asset rather than a liability—and that preventing women having children is not the best way of approaching this? This is not a medical matter but a matter of society providing education. What plans are there for helping with girls’ education so that they can progress?
Baroness Northover
The noble Baroness is right. This is a circular issue: where girls have more access to education you see the birth rate coming down, and where the birth rate is coming down girls have more access to education. When families are able to choose, they tend to choose to have fewer children and to invest more in them, and that certainly includes education.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is it not a fact that, in these countries where health standards are improving and children live longer, there is no longer any need to have a very large family because so many die very young? This comes back to the issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar; that educating mothers, in particular, in health processes and in how to care for their children and for their health will have an effect.
Baroness Northover
My noble friend is right, and I emphasise again the importance of investing in education, which then has the effects that she is talking about. I note also what are described as the demographic dividends: if you have fewer children who are dependent and therefore an expansion of the working-age population, there is an economic benefit to the countries in question. That is regarded as one of the factors in the development of the east Asian countries in particular.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, does the Government’s commitment to education on family planning and contraception around the world extend to education in schools in this country, particularly academy schools and so-called free schools? Will the Government confirm that they will follow a curriculum that has a full range of education including in respect of family planning and contraception?
Baroness Northover
My Lords, that question is slightly wide of scope but I refer the noble Lord to the Answers given by my noble friend Lord Hill assuring the House that this area is extremely important wherever it is found.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, following the Somalia summit hosted by the Prime Minister last month, it was agreed that security and justice were essential both to a successful political process and to development, yet when I was part of the recent British IPU delegation to the UN Commission for Women last month, we were told by NGOs there that Somali women would not be part of the delegation to Rio as security is “not an issue for women”? Does the Minister agree with me and with the UN Women Executive Director Michelle Bachelet that listening to and supporting rural women is fundamental to ending poverty? What representations will Her Majesty’s Government be making to address this?
Baroness Northover
My noble friend is right. Rural women and girls currently have limited access to all sorts of resources. Often it is difficult for them to participate in conferences like this, yet it is very important that they do. Ultimately, of course, it is for the Governments themselves to determine the make-up of their delegations. We can but encourage and make the points that my noble friend has made about the importance of this issue.
Viscount Craigavon
My Lords, while accepting that education is extremely important in this area, does the Minister agree that there is already an expressed and unmet need of over 200 million couples for contraception and family planning? She mentioned in her Answer what we wanted to talk about at the summit, but is this subject actually on the agenda, or have we still got to get it on the agenda?
Baroness Northover
It is one of the issues that we are flagging up. The noble Viscount will know that DfID is hosting a large conference in July on this. It is part of the emphasis that we wish to make in development generally and, of course, it is extremely relevant to Rio.
Libya
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, we share the transitional Government’s desire for a stable, prosperous and united Libya. This will be most effectively achieved if all groups are represented and have a voice. We look forward to elections in June, which provide an opportunity to achieve this goal. As in any democratic process, we expect groupings to be represented on a variety of themes. This may include tribal factors, but also regional, ethnic, gender and other political factors.
Lord Judd
I thank the Minister for that Answer. Does he agree that this underlines the imperative of being certain that, when intervention is made abroad, there is the most thorough study of the history and underlying social structural realities of the country concerned? In this context, what have we learnt from Iraq and Afghanistan that is of relevance to the situation in Libya?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Policy-makers seek to learn at all times, but against the noble Lord’s experienced comment I must put the rival comment that circumstances differ enormously in different situations, events, times of history, and as a result of the different histories and past of the countries concerned. We faced in Libya a unique situation: a country that had been in tyranny, had visited terrible crimes on this country, and that was on the verge of further massacres. We should be glad of and applaud the courage of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and other Ministers when they decided to support from the air the opposition in Libya at the time. It has brought a much happier Libya, as all the statistics show, and it has defied all the so-called experts, who a year ago said that nothing would work and that it would be a stalemate and a disaster. It is nothing of the kind.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, my noble friend said last July that the Tuaregs should be able to enjoy the full benefits of citizenship and that we had made representations to the transitional national council to this effect. What steps is the TNC now taking to confer citizenship not just on the Tuaregs but on other tribes who were deprived of documentation under the dictatorship, such as the Toubou, the Awlad Suleiman and the Shaama people? Have we also asked the TNC to amend as a matter of urgency Article 3 of the electoral law, which provides that voters must have held citizenship for at least 10 years? Otherwise, some 200,000 people may be deprived of the vote in the June elections.
Lord Howell of Guildford
We have already advised on the benefits of a democracy that allows full rights for voting for the Tuaregs and all Libyans; and we will continue to do so. As to the particular issue of Article 3, I cannot tell my noble friend whether we have raised that specific matter in dialogue with the Libyan Government, but I will seek to ensure that Article 3 is raised if it has not been already.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, I supported the action in Libya. It was the right thing to do. However, further to my noble friend Lord Judd’s Question, is there not an irresistible logic that if you go into countries—I am not saying Libya per se, but any country—to change a despotic regime that is massacring and killing its citizens, and I understand all the imperatives of that, if the regime that takes its place starts doing the same, we have to go back in again. Would the Minister agree that that is the case?
Lord Howell of Guildford
We are at the same point as we were a moment ago: it is different in different countries. I agree that certain responsibilities are required. If the outside world decides to intervene, whether for humanitarian reasons to prevent a massacre or because there is open, recognised and legally agreed international pressure to change a regime, those who intervene must have some responsibility for the regimes that follow. These are agonising decisions, which are different in every case. They are currently very prominent in Syria, where we see hideous atrocities unfolding. The question of how those who care for human life and want to uphold civilisation should best intervene is very difficult, as I know the noble Lord fully understands from his previous responsibilities.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that democracy is a far better protector of diversity and pluralism within societies than tribalism, particularly if tribalism leads to conflict?
Lord Howell of Guildford
That is unquestionably so. This is the issue that we are now discussing. Libya was and remains a country with many different tribal groups, not all of which necessarily live in tight geographical locations. They are often rather mixed up. Many different forces are at work in Libya, but overall, as a democracy, it is our advice to other democracies that their future will be best assured by pursuing the democratic method.
I should add that the recent survey of what has happened in Libya leaves us with figures that show that 97 per cent of Libyans think that the revolution was absolutely right; 66 per cent support a semi-centralised Government, with ministries spread across Libya; and 79 per cent expect their lives to better a year from now. These are pretty decisive figures, which indicate that if we push for more democracy we are all on the right lines.
Lord Desai
My Lords, do the Government have any plans to help Libya to conduct a good election by pointing to the Commonwealth experience in these matters?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The Commonwealth experience is available, and I know that there are leaders in the Commonwealth who are quite ready to provide any advice, support and help that they can. The Commonwealth’s role in monitoring and administering elections is particularly valuable where new constitutions are in the making, as in Libya. Commonwealth leaders have certainly indicated that they stand ready to help in any possible way.
Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Owen
My Lords, I beg leave to present a Petition from 38 Degrees, which prays that, in considering the matter of the NHS risk register, noble Lords remember that risks posed to our NHS by the Health and Social Care Bill are matters of significant public concern. The Petition, which I have already deposited with the Clerk of the Parliaments, bears over 486,000 electronic signatures.
Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) (Payment of Claims) (Amendment) Regulations 2012
Lord De Mauley
That the draft regulations and order laid before the House on 7 and 27 February be approved.
Relevant document: 41st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 13 March.
Health and Social Care Bill
(12 years, 8 months ago)
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16:41 - Division on Lord Owen’s amendment. - Ayes: 213 / Noes: 328 - Amendment disagreed.
19:33 - Division on Amendment 17 - Ayes: 209 / Noes: 267 - Amendment 17 disagreed.
20:20 - Division on Baroness Thornton’s amendment. - Ayes: 174 / Noes: 269 - Amendment disagreed.
Lord Owen
To leave out from “that” to the end and insert “the Bill be not read a third time until the House has had an opportunity to consider the detailed reasons for the first-tier tribunal decision that the transition risk register be disclosed and the Government’s response thereto, or until the last practical opportunity which would allow the Bill to receive Royal Assent before Prorogation”.
Lord Owen
My Lords, this is rather a strange situation. We are coming to the end of an extraordinarily long process of debate, yet there is still one element that is not directly related to the Bill and much more concerns constitutional questions and the Freedom of Information Act. Throughout the Bill, various attempts have been made—mainly by those on the Cross Benches and the Opposition, it must be admitted—to use the Freedom of Information Act to reveal more information. That is a common situation that will be familiar to all Peers: in opposition we seek to use the Freedom of Information Act and in government we tend to try to clamp down on it. I myself tried to obtain the legal advice to the previous Labour Government in 2006 on the implications for introducing “any willing provider” provisions and other aspects as regards EU legislation. The Information Commissioner rejected my application. I accept that because the Freedom of Information Act has been very well established, with a commissioner who makes recommendations. These can be challenged by government or any other interested party. The commissioners can then decide on whether to uphold them and then there is a further appeal.
What is extremely unusual about the request that this register be disclosed—the transitional register, which relates more to the legislation—is that two decisions under the Freedom of Information Act have upheld disclosure. It was a surprise to quite a lot of us that the first decision by the Information Commissioner was that the register be disclosed—in fact, there are two registers. What became interesting was that the tribunal was going to have the matter referred to it. I pay tribute to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, who, on behalf of the Government, recognising the dilemma that we might be in in this House, having come to our normal discussions on the Bill and wanting to hear a decision, asked the chairman of the tribunal, Professor Angel, to bring forward his hearings. That was done and the tribunal sat on the 5th and 6th of this month. Again, its decision was against the Government and was that this register which relates to the peculiar circumstances of this very complex and long legislation should be disclosed.
It is fair to say that the Government have another appeal procedure open to them. There is another tribunal that they can go to. I make it clear that I do not believe that any Freedom of Information Act worth the name would ride roughshod over the legitimate case of the Government to hold back information and, furthermore, to receive information that is confidential to them during the process of legislation or of good government. As we know, the previous Cabinet Secretary went to the tribunal and argued—and I do not disagree—that civil servants, when asked to make risk assessments, wanted to feel confident that they could raise the unspeakable, if you like, with Ministers and not feel hesitant about bringing forward risks.
However, risks go to the core of this legislation, and that is the most important thing about it. The issue before the House is whether the risks of continuing with the legislation—no one believes that there are no risks—are greater than the risks of stopping the legislation. Few would disagree that there must be some risks in stopping legislation, having continued with it this far. This is, if one likes, a balance of judgment. My premise and my plea to the House is that, before making a final decision, all those who respect freedom of information and the world that we now live in with a viable Freedom of Information Act should at least await the decision of Professor Angel and the tribunal. That is all I ask for.
The question is a practical one. Are there enough weeks or days available to the House before Prorogation? I took soundings and it was very clear—certainly among Cross-Benchers, who I am bound to talk to more than others—that there was no belief that this issue should block the legislation; they did not think that it would be appropriate. There was a lot of substance in their argument. Whatever one’s views about the Bill, that can be discussed at Third Reading. The question here was whether we could frame an amendment that would give the Government the freedom to bring this issue back before Prorogation. I used the words,
“until the last practical opportunity which would allow the Bill to receive Royal Assent before Prorogation”.
We are not therefore discussing whether the Bill should go forward. This is not by any standard a blocking measure. Nor, I suggest to the House, would we really be sensible to make a decision in principle whether the tribunal’s judgment should be upheld. It is anyhow, as I said, open to the Government to go to another appeal.
What seems to me pretty important is to listen to what the tribunal has decided. It has made a complex judgment, because it decided that the overall risk assessment should not be published but the transitional risk assessment should. A lot of people are still not sure how that distinction could have been made, but it has. We passed the legislation for freedom of information. I think it was an extremely good piece of legislation. It was put on the statute book in 2000 and was modified in 2005. As I said, it is not a complete licence for anyone to go in to get everything published that they might want. There are checks and balances. It seems to me that we should respect those checks and balances and await the decision.
There is a political and practical reason also, quite outside that. Those of us who have spent many hours and days on the Bill know that we can easily be in a bubble in which we discuss the line by line amendments and the practical wording of the legislation, but I suggest to the House that we are in a very unusual situation. On Friday, the result of a poll held among members and fellows of the Royal College of Physicians was announced. I have an interest to declare. I am a fellow of the Royal College of Physicians and I voted. Thirty-five per cent voted, which, given the circumstances—ballots also go to overseas members—was a pretty high poll, and 69 per cent voted that the legislation should not go forward. Only 6 per cent believed that it should.
Everyone in this House makes their own judgment about a Bill. Pressures from outside, electronic petitions and opinion polls among royal societies come and go and we still make our decisions. I have no complaints about that and I do not believe that the medical profession has any particular monopoly of wisdom on this issue. What is staggering about the legislation is how it has been opposed by practically everybody who works in the health service. I refer not just to unions such as the BMA and the Royal College of Nursing, which have dual functions, both representing their professional bodies. Every royal college that balloted its members has come up with that conclusion.
All I am saying to the House in all sincerity is that we should follow due process on this Bill. Let us demonstrate to everybody that, even if they disagree with it, if the Bill is passed, they must co-operate with the legislation of the House. They must accept it in good will as the judgment of Parliament and they must work within the legislation. But do not leave unfinished business, do not leave out one massively important issue, which is to hear the view of the tribunal that we erected in the legislation and gave the freedom to make a judgment, and which has twice opposed the Government's judgment. I rest my case.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, I intervene briefly. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord said, but I am not sure that this is just a matter of practice, as he said at the beginning—although by the end he was coming very firmly round to the view that he was an all-out opponent of the legislation itself. I think that there are questions of principle here as well, and not just the principles that he enunciated.
I am not a member of the “keep everything secret” brigade—rather the opposite. If we had taken more notice of the Information Commissioner’s report in 2006 on the unlawful trade in professional information, we might not have had to wait until 2012 for the inquiry into phone hacking, and the rest. I also argued against the 30-year rule for the disclosure of Cabinet papers as wrong and unnecessary and remain critical of the previous Government’s response to that, which was to reduce it to 20 rather than 15 years, as recommended. I think that had more to do with disclosure on Iraq than it did a matter of principle.
I also believe that when it comes to the publication of risk registers, other issues need to be taken into account, not least the relationship between Ministers and civil servants. I suggest that this is why no Government in the past has agreed to a policy of publication. In my view, Ministers are responsible for the decisions taken, and it is for civil servants to advise. That is their skill and their role, and anyone who has ever put a Bill through Parliament knows well enough that if they are any good, civil servants do not simply sit there saying, “Yes, Minister”. They debate and argue with the Minister and warn of the risks as they see them. It is one of the very good features of the relationship between Ministers and the Civil Service in this country.
The problem with publishing all the risks, from the possible to the highly improbable, is that the relationship itself seems to be brought into some doubt. Civil servants, whether they liked it or not, would be dragged into the debate. We all know exactly what would happen: the risk register would be used to undermine the measure being proposed. The aim would be to show that Ministers were in conflict with their own staff. The opponents of a Bill such as the one before us today could say that not only was the BMA against the Bill—it is not exactly news that the BMA is against any new measure put forward since 1947—but also, by selective quotation, that the Civil Service itself had profound doubts. Whether one liked it or not, the Civil Service would be brought into controversy and people would try to portray conflict. I do not see, frankly, how that is in the public interest.
The party opposite has not shown any interest or inclination in the past to go down this road as a general policy line. This would simply place new obstacles in the way of legislation and change. I wonder how a risk register could have been used at the inception of the health service in the 1940s. Doubtless it would have pointed to the problems implicit in such a massive reorganisation and to the risks that costs could escalate. Not every civil servant would have shared ministerial confidence that a better health service would mean improved health and therefore a reduction in costs.
It comes down to the fact that in these cases there is a matter of judgment on the part of Ministers, having listened to the arguments and the advice of the Civil Service, in putting their proposals before Parliament. I entirely understand the later amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, which seeks to deny a Third Reading to this Bill. That is perfectly straightforward: she sets out the reasons for it. I do not happen to agree with her, as she knows, but I do not have any doubt about her right to do this. Frankly, however, I cannot see the value of this amendment seeking delay on grounds that I do not believe to be in the public interest.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
My Lords, since Second Reading in this Chamber, this House has carried out a very thorough public scrutiny of this Bill. In doing so, it has had the advantage of the expertise of practitioners and former practitioners with great experience from across the medical, surgical, nursing and social work professions, and also those with experience of administration of those services. Further, it has had the advantage of former health service Ministers and of the skilled, eloquent probing of the Bill’s provisions by the opposition Front Bench: the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Beecham, and the noble Baroness, Baroness Wheeler. We have also had the expertise of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, himself not only a former Health Minister and writer on health matters, but also a director of a large American pharmaceutical company for quite a number of years. In addition, as the Bill has proceeded, we have received detailed briefing from many people currently working in the health and social work services.
The scrutiny was completed last week. In that situation, we would grossly underestimate the breadth and depth of that scrutiny if we accepted that a register, prepared 15 months ago by civil servants in the privacy of the Department of Health before the Bill was introduced and before the very large number of amendments were made to it, could add substantially to our understanding of the Bill. Therefore, in my submission, at this stage this amendment to the Motion is inappropriate. At the very best, it refers only to the tribunal’s decision; it does not refer, except indirectly, to the register. In my submission to your Lordships, the register prepared so long ago in privacy by civil servants cannot be expected to add substantially to what we know already.
Baroness Jay of Paddington
My Lords, as the House knows, I chair your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, which has produced two reports on the Bill. As everyone has said, the Bill is enormously complicated and very detailed, and we have been very detailed in our consideration of it.
I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, because the noble Earl the Minister has, as we all know—and we have all paid due respect to him on this—been enormously helpful to the House’s consideration and the production of amendments. The Constitution Committee itself produced very important amendments on the Secretary of State’s role on this. All this has demonstrated the very sound, elaborate and good processes by which this House and its Select Committees, as well as the many experts, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, has just mentioned, have contributed to the debate. We have proceeded on this in an extremely sensible, measured and considered way.
The Government have been very generous and the Minister has been particularly generous in accepting amendments and entering into discussion. Having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Owen, I think he is saying that the House should continue to follow the very good process that we have had in formulating our opinions on the Bill. We have taken time and have deliberated very carefully. The House has listened to many views, including those of its Select Committees and of its many expert Members. As the noble Lord, Lord Owen, said, we have also listened to many people outside.
Over the weekend, I have been particularly amazed at the last-minute contributions from, for example, the Royal College of Physicians. The noble Lord, Lord Owen, mentioned one online petition, and I have received another from the organisation Avaaz, signed by 110,000 people. The cumulative figures suggest that in the past few days more than 500,000 people have signed online petitions specifically relating to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, not to the more general point.
I say to the House that we have followed the processes very well indeed in relation to this Bill. We have agreed to disagree on some things, and the Government have accepted amendments where they have accepted the arguments. In following the processes, which this House has created very successfully over the years, we have used our best efforts with regard to the Bill, and we can lose nothing by continuing to follow those processes and, finally, by taking note of the tribunal’s report, as the noble Lord, Lord Owen, has suggested.
Lord Birt
My Lords, I rise to underline some of the arguments articulated by the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. A risk register is a key prerequisite of any effective organisation, whether public or private. I have had experience of a variety of registers in both the public and private sectors. When I worked at No. 10, I was a member of the Cabinet Office Strategy Board, and one of the tasks of that board was to consider what was effectively the national risk register.
What is the purpose of a risk register? It is to identify all risks. Every risk register that I have ever looked at has been kept highly confidential because it has always been gory and hair-raising to read. The purpose of identifying worst-case risks is to do your best to prevent them and, if you do not prevent them, you need to work out, in advance, what you will do if bad things happen. To create an effective risk register, you need to—
Baroness Thornton
Is the noble Lord aware that all NHS organisations, strategic health authorities, PCTs and local authorities have risk registers and they publish them?
Lord Birt
I shall come to the risks of publication in a second. What are the means of creating an effective risk register? You need to involve those in governance and delivery and you need absolute candour and trust in the process. The consequence of making any risk register public is that it will be anodyne and the risks would simply cease to be managed, which is not in the public interest. I would hope that Governments of any persuasion would resist the notion of publishing any risk register. It is a matter of regret that one risk register in respect of Heathrow was published. It follows from that that I am unable to support the amendment.
Lord Peston
I support the noble Lord, Lord Owen, in what I regard as a special case. I think he, too, is arguing that this is a special case. As background, perhaps I may refer to my experience last week when I spent quite a long time at St Thomas’s Hospital, where I think the noble Lord, Lord Owen, was a most distinguished graduate. I was an NHS patient and my experience was of a service working exceptionally well medically, not wasting resources, and staffed by people devoted to the care of patients. Those to whom I spoke told me that that was why they had entered the medical profession; they wanted to work in hospitals. In other words, my experience was diametrically opposed to the basis on which this whole Bill is put forward by the Secretary of State, who constantly attacks the NHS, constantly argues that it wastes resources and constantly argues that it needs private sector involvement in order to make it work properly.
The reason for wishing to see the risk register, which I regard as fundamental in this case, is to ask the question: was the Secretary of State warned of this? Did anyone place before him the information and the argument that his account of the NHS does not correspond to reality as experienced by those of us who use it? That is why it seems to me that the noble Lord, Lord Owen, is asking to see the documentation. Those of us who have advised Governments are perfectly well aware that Ministers have many different views put before them. We are perfectly well aware that civil servants have their own agendas and there is nothing surprising about that. Equally, those of us who have advised Governments know that all decision-making involves risks, so to try to pretend that there is no risk and that there is a case for keeping it secret seems preposterous.
Last week, we heard the approach of those who are still dyed-in-the-wool opponents of anything appearing in the public domain. I hate to say it but such people were involved with our own Government not that long ago, although I thought that we had abandoned those days and that openness had become our touchstone. Last week, I said to the Minister that when I gave advice, I would have been insulted at the suggestion that I did not say to a Minister what I actually thought and, if I were told that what I had said was in the public domain and asked to tone down my remarks that what they were thinking of was stupid, I would not have done so. Addressing the Minister directly, I add that the 30-year rule has given some of us considerable embarrassment. Some of the things I said in the past turned out to be absolute balderdash but I can live with that because it is what I thought at the time. It turns out that I was wrong.
The path that the noble Lord, Lord Owen, wants to take us down is, as a special case, precisely the correct one. I do not think it will destroy our Civil Service; it will not cause honest men and women suddenly to start telling lies in order to ingratiate themselves with the Minister. I am absolutely certain this is a special case which your Lordships should espouse.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I would like to share with your Lordships’ House, for the first time, my experience of trying to deal with the complicated matter of BSE as it makes clear this distinction. I committed myself to total openness; I knew nothing that the public did not know. It was the only way in which one could be sure of obtaining people’s trust. Nothing was hidden. We did not have risk registers in the sense that we do today but it would be quite wrong to say that we had not considered every possible risk.
I put it to your Lordships that there is a difference between what you know and the extreme cases which you ask about in order to make sure that what you know covers everything that you could know. If in the middle of that terrible crisis newspapers more interested in their numbers of sales had accused the Minister of uncertainty because he had asked about risk—and I do not need to go into the kinds of risk you had to ask about—it would have been impossible to make what were already difficult enough decisions. It turns out now, 20 years later, that the decisions were right but at the time they could only be what you knew, and what I knew I shared.
Consider also what it meant for my civil servants. Do your Lordships really believe that your civil servants would be able to be as frank and direct and complete if they found themselves and their relationships being used as part of a battle? There were some terrible battles at that time between people who had all sorts of other interests. Compare this to another case, which out of kindness I will not be too detailed about. For many years in the ministry of agriculture a particular view had been upheld and we had been told that it was true. When I sought further information I discovered it was not. It was at that point that I tried to establish a very clear distinction between what you know and what you have to ask about which you do not know.
The risk register has come into our governmental structure largely from private business. I sit on the boards of a number of companies and chair several; in all those cases we have a risk register. That risk register is only useful if it is kept entirely to the company itself, because you want to ask questions of a very extreme kind. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Owen, whether he can imagine a Foreign Secretary who had to reveal his risk register asking what would happen if this or that Government did this or that, or what would happen if some Middle Eastern state refused to allow our ships into the Strait of Hormuz at this moment. Would any Foreign Secretary be able to be Foreign Secretary?
Baroness Thornton
Does the noble Lord not think that the Information Commissioner and the tribunal have taken those points into account?
Lord Deben
I would not dream of suggesting that I know what the tribunal and the commissioner have taken into account. All I am saying is that if they have taken it into account and come to this decision, I think it is wrong, and if they have not taken it into account they ought to have done. That is why I come to the point that the noble Baroness raised when she said that it is all very good because the National Health Service has risk registers and publishes them. They are not risk registers, not in the sense that a business has risk registers. They are not risk registers in the sense that the Foreign Office has risk registers. They are such risks as the National Health Service believes will stand being in the public domain. The risk registers that a Government have are a wholly different kind of thing and need to be. I believe that we must protect them.
Lord Harris of Haringey
Before he finishes his remarks, will the noble Lord explain why the National Security Council publishes its own national risk register of security threats to the UK?
Lord Deben
For exactly the same reason that the National Health Service does.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said is well worth listening to, but I shall add one other important factor before I come on to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Owen. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, pointed out—and it is a crucial factor in our discussion—the risk register that was drawn up in autumn 2010 took no account of the changes made by your Lordships’ House. It could not because it could not foresee the future. That means that the risk register of 2010, the transitional register to which the chairman of the tribunal referred, is almost useless in enriching and informing the debate we are having in this House. Therefore, far from being helpful, it will in many ways be extremely misleading because it will confirm the incorrect beliefs of many members of the public who have not understood what has happened in this House. You only have to read the newspapers to see how widespread is the total ignorance of what we have done here, whether we talk about competition, training or constitutional change. That is the crucially troubling aspect of what we are discussing. It leads the general public and Members of this House and elsewhere back to an out-of-date and anachronistic finding.
I have one more thing to say about the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Owen. The House needs to recognise that he has made a very substantial change of great importance in it: he has accepted that there will be a Third Reading in this House. He has accepted that the outcome of the Third Reading will be binding upon everybody in this House and beyond because it will be part of the system of law. What he has asked for is more time and opportunity to have the finding of the tribunal discussed in this House. In that, he is absolutely correct. I do not believe that we have gone anything like sufficiently far in trying to accommodate that reasonable request because there is time left in this Session of Parliament. It ought to be possible to transfer a day or two from the Scotland Bill to the health Bill so that it could be properly discussed; or there is something that the noble Lord indicated he would accept, which is a very narrow redaction of anything in the risk register that would be seen as desperately dangerous to public trust in the NHS.
My view is a rather curious one. It is that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, is right in pointing to the real dangers of treating the risk register as a source of knowledge and truth, but I also believe that the Government should have gone further in trying to find time somewhere, if necessary—dare I say it?—even taking a day off the sacred Easter Recess to enable this House to discuss in detail what is coming out of the chairman of the tribunal’s decision on the risk register so that we can get it straight.
Lord Wilson of Dinton
I add my support to what the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and others who have spoken against the Motion said. I am deeply concerned about the implications of the Motion for the Civil Service.
Every day in government, Ministers consider policy issues and depend on the Civil Service for advice. Anyone who has been a Minister understands the private space in which civil servants give their best advice. There is a major public interest in advice being given without fear of it becoming part of the political arena, in the press or in Parliament. If risk registers are published, the very act of publishing them will draw them into the public arena and politicise the advice. This is not about lying, or about being dishonest in any way, but the duty of civil servants is to the Ministers they serve and to the Government of the day. They have a job to do and they must do it to the best of their ability, but they must do it in a way that does not cause difficulty for the Government.
It is in all our interests that risk registers are honest and look at the worst case, and put it in terms that leave the Minister in no doubt about the risks that are being taken. If those documents are going to appear in the public arena, they are bound to be sanitised in some form. Advice will either be put in a way that does not fully expose the dangers, or worse still it will not be given. There is a real risk that important advice will be driven off the paper into oral remarks, which are not what the Minister needs. The Minister needs a document that he or she can read after the meeting, and ponder and mull in the stillness of their own room. If we push these documents into the political debate, we will lose a crucial part of the role of the Civil Service. If we do it a lot, over time there is a real risk that Ministers will want around them civil servants who are themselves political, because they have become part of the political debate.
This is a very dangerous pressure to put on the constitution. I understand the worries about the Bill, but this is not the right way to attack it. It would be a dreadful mistake if this House were, in the heat of the moment, to set a precedent that affected the Civil Service in its ability to serve the Government of the day.
Across all parties there is an understanding about the need to observe the conventions under which the Civil Service operates. I appeal to the House not to add its weight to this issue of the risk register in a way that might do damage, because the damage would be not only to this Bill and this department. Whitehall is watching; it is really concerned about this issue, and if this goes the wrong way it will have implications and reverberations across government in ways that I am sure this House would not want. I urge the House not to support the Motion.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
Would the noble Lord share with the House his view as to what weight should be attached to the Information Commissioner’s judgment on this particular risk register? Is it his view, in the light of his remarks, that the views of the Information Commissioner should be ignored, overridden, or appealed on to the point at which they are no longer relevant? That appears to be the course of action the Government are now trying to take.
Lord Wilson of Dinton
It is not for me to advise the Government on what to do, but I hope they will appeal, because the issue involved is of huge importance. I read the Information Commissioner’s first judgment and I do not find it satisfactory. It is written in a way that suggests that it does not understand the issues in government. I think the issue at stake is of sufficient importance for the Government to fight its corner, and for this House not to add its weight to it.
Baroness Murphy
My Lords, I declare that I am a member of the British Medical Association and a fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists.
The risk register is a complete red herring and we all know that this is an attempt to delay the implementation of the policies in the Bill. The Bill has received extraordinarily careful scrutiny. In fact, it has received better scrutiny and a warmer response from government Ministers in addressing amendments proposed by all sides of the House than any Bill with which I have been associated in the past eight years. At the moment, I can think of nothing worse for the National Health Service than to have these policies delayed yet again by further uncertainty and greater procrastination.
The risk register saga was so obviously a political ruse from the beginning that I did not even bother to speak on it when it was first introduced. It was so obviously a red herring, produced for the benefit of the House to debate a slowing down of the Bill, that it was not worth addressing.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
Would the noble Baroness explain to the House whether it is her view that the Information Commissioner has deliberately delayed the progress of the Bill? That seems to be the implication of her remarks.
Baroness Murphy
That is not the implication of my remarks at all. The Information Commissioner has not released his full judgment and will not release his reasons for some time, so we cannot debate that.
This comes back to what my noble friends Lord Birt and Lord Wilson and the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, said about what these risk registers contain. I know very well because I have written risk registers for the National Health Service. I have sat down with my chief executive, and with my chairman when I was a chief executive, and we have written these things for public consumption. The Cabinet Office has a very nice risk register, but it is for public consumption; it is not to do with the private discussions between senior civil servants or advisers. I have worked as an adviser at the Department of Health, and this is not the kind of thing that comes up in conversations between Ministers where you want to be really frank.
We now have an out of date, almost two years’ old risk register that will not be relevant to the passage of the Bill. We have assessed the detailed risks of the Bill better in this House than in any other forum I can imagine. Those who have sat through the progress of the Bill, line by line and word by word, know very well that we have improved it. I am sure there are areas that many of us would still like addressed, but for all kinds of reasons we are not able to do so. I beg the House not to delay the Bill. If we delay it further we will have no guarantee that we will be able to get it through before Prorogation. I see this simply as a ruse not to implement these polices. We would gravely let down the National Health Service by not implementing them, and I urge noble Lords not to support the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Owen.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I support the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Owen. I understand that he is saying, “Let us look at the reasons for saying that the risk register should be made public”. He understands that it must be done before Prorogation, so I am not entirely clear why the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, is saying that this will cause delay. I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, says—you do need to strike a balance between appropriate confidentiality in relation to what the Government do and the need for openness.
The Freedom of Information Act was passed so that it would not be government Ministers or civil servants who determined what was kept confidential but an independent tribunal. We have reached the position on this issue at which Professor Angel, who is regarded as probably the best chair of an information tribunal that there is, has struck the balance. Take it from me that Professor Angel very well understands the need for proper confidentiality in relation to government. He and his tribunal are not remotely people who would make everything public. They well understand that lots of government matters have to be kept under wraps for the purpose of good government. If a tribunal chaired by Professor Angel said that we should see this, and he reached that conclusion on the basis not of politics but of good government, my instincts are that we should listen more to what he said than noble Lords around this House who have an interest in trying to rush the Bill through. I am struck by the modesty of the amendment by my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Owen. It says that we should see what Professor Angel said before we reach a conclusion. I strongly urge the House to take that course.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, I have sat for many hours with my noble friend Lord Owen on this Bill. We both have an appreciation of the health service that came from our parents. My noble friend’s father was a medical practitioner while my mother and grandmother spoke of how things were before the National Health Service came into being. I have no desire to do any disservice to the health service. In fact, in the amendments put before this House, I voted contrary to the wishes of the Government.
Yet, on this matter, there is a point that information passed between civil servants and their Ministers should be kept confidential. The argument has been put about the Information Commissioner. Is anyone suggesting that the Information Commissioner is doing something wrong? The answer is no. The Information Commissioner works from a piece of legislation that both our Houses gave him. That basically says that if information is in data—in written form—then it should be made public. What will now happen is that when Ministers go to get advice, they will not get written advice. Ministers and other high officers of state are entitled to advice from their civil servants or officials. They get confidential advice. Freedom of information does not cover all information, only written information. No one can force a Minister or any other officeholder to hand over information given orally. That is exactly what will happen now: information will be given orally. That is not helpful to the quality that we look for. When a civil servant or officer puts something down in a document, they give a lot of thought to it. As the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, said, there are several people behind that document when it is published. It is there for the Minister or officer to look at. On this matter, I cannot support my noble friend Lord Owen. I support the Government.
There was a previous debate on this matter. It was stated that the previous Labour Government should give the risk register for, I think, the third runway at Heathrow. Justine Greening was the MP who pushed for that. First, the Government did not hand over that information in a matter of minutes. It took a long time for them to hand it over. Secondly, this was leading up to a general election where parliamentary incumbents around Heathrow and parliamentary candidates in the Labour Party were deeply worried about that risk register.
I have been very supportive of my friends in the Labour Party, and they know that. In fact, I have a better voting record with the Labour Party than some of its card-carrying members. However, they should ask themselves when the road to Damascus came about. It did not come about two years ago. Every time I granted an Urgent Question to a Minister or to the House, there was a Minister complaining that they did not want to give information to the House but would rather give it to a television studio.
I have had a great deal of criticism—costly criticism—about going to an appeal, so I know about appeals.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, it is not just a question of the road to Damascus. When the Information Commissioner ruled about the Heathrow third runway we then made the report available. There is also one more difference I would point out to the noble Lord. At that time there was no Bill going before Parliament to which the risk register was pertinent. They are the two key differences that I wish to bring to the House’s attention.
Lord Martin of Springburn
The noble Baroness makes a valid point but I am giving many examples of where certain individuals, such as some of her Cabinet colleagues, were not too keen about the Information Commissioner’s instructions to this House and the other House. She will know that. In fact, some of her fellow Cabinet colleagues came to me and said, “Good luck, we want you to appeal.”. I do not know whether it was discussed in Cabinet but I know that the sparks started flying. What do they say about failure? Failure is an orphan.
I will not go down that road too far except to say that it certainly has been a road to Damascus. There have been a lot of decisions by the Information Commissioner that the noble Baroness and her Cabinet colleagues did not want. I am prepared to put them down item by item and to tell her about the Cabinet Ministers, some at very high level, who were prepared to go against an Information Commissioner’s decision.
Lord Martin of Springburn
Not on a Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Owen, says it is not about the Bill; he says we should wait for the Bill until we get an appeal decision. If people are opposing an Information Commissioner’s decision, it still has consequences for legislation whether it applies to a Bill or not. Let us not kid ourselves. It may not apply to a Bill but on other pieces of business, the Minister concerned is going to say, “Give me that information orally—I do not want anything at all in writing”. Information Commissioners have gone on record to say that if information is in data they want to release it.
Lord Walton of Detchant
My Lords, I have the greatest respect for my noble friend Lord Owen—a noted Health Secretary and Foreign Secretary, and someone who made a major contribution towards peace in the Balkans. He became, obviously, one of the glitterati of British politics. Many of your Lordships may not be aware that he began training as a registrar in neurology at St Thomas’s Hospital and I often contemplate what might have happened to his future career if he had stuck with neurology and not turned to politics.
While I talk of neurology, may I just say to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that I was the neurologist on the Southwood working party on BSE which gave advice to the Government on that tragic, difficult problem in 1988? I am very glad that we got that advice right—we learnt a lot about the assessment of risk at that time.
To return to this Bill and the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, which, with some difficulty, I feel that I cannot support, I am a fervent supporter of the National Health Service. I spent much of my professional life working in it and in academic medicine, and when this Bill was introduced into your Lordships’ House I joined with the voices of the BMA, the royal colleges, the nursing organisations and many others in saying that in my opinion the Bill was potentially damaging to the NHS and that it was unacceptable. However, we have moved on. I have been involved with many of your Lordships in the lengthy, at times almost interminable, debates which have improved this Bill beyond recognition. It is not perfect, and there are still issues which perhaps need to be handled by regulation, but it is an infinitely better Bill than the one which came originally into this House. For that reason, any further delay would be unacceptable.
Having said that, I was greatly touched by the wise words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, and by the very wise words of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, who has been a tower of strength throughout all the debates in this House. I genuinely believe that if the medical organisations which are continuing to express their complete opposition to the Bill had fully appreciated the enormous number of amendments that have been carried and accepted by the Government in this House, they would not be continuing to take their stance as fiercely as they are. The Bill has been transformed; for that reason, if your Lordships will forgive the cliché, enough is enough. We are where we are. It is time to give this Bill a Third Reading.
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Walton, who, as we all know, carries such respect on health matters in this House. I do not doubt the sincerity of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, in his fundamental opposition to the whole Bill. Indeed, he expressed it very clearly in his Observer article yesterday. He put the arguments very fairly on his Motion, but I have absolutely no hesitation in disagreeing with it today—and I say to him, in his capacity as a doctor, that I feel no physical or mental discomfort with a whipped vote on the matter, for the very key reason that my noble friend Lady Williams mentioned.
The risk register whose publication is being requested was written as long ago as November 2010. It will certainly not relate to the Bill being considered today, as it was drawn up many months before the pause in the Bill’s proceedings. Many changes to the Bill were made as a result of the Future Forum process, headed up by Professor Steve Field. The Bill was then changed significantly in Committee and on Report in this House, as the recent House of Commons research paper makes absolutely clear. The risks identified in the register are therefore those of the old Bill, long since superseded, or even of the White Paper which preceded it. It will have been based on worst-case scenarios—
Baroness Tonge
In all sincerity, if the risk register is so totally out of date and bears no relevance at all to the new amended Bill, would its publication not be a wonderful opportunity for this side of the House to show how much it has improved the Bill and dispatched all risks?
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, my next sentence was about to deal with precisely the point made by my noble friend. It can therefore be argued that publication now by the Government could, and would, wholly distort rational discussion about the Bill in its present form. The job of scrutiny carried out by your Lordships’ House is to look at every scenario and from the experience of its Members, which is considerable, suggest amendments which mitigate the problems identified. That is precisely what this House has carried out and, I would say, to good effect. However, the Motion is not suggesting that we delay the current Bill against the remote possibility that there is some risk in it which the Department of Health has identified and this House has not. It is saying that we should delay it pending the First-tier Tribunal’s reason for its decision being published.
What will passing this amendment to the Motion therefore achieve? When we know the details of the decision, the Government will still be fully entitled to appeal. They have already won with the strategic risk register, and may well take the view that they will be able to overturn Professor Angel’s decision on the transitional register. Do we want to deny them the right to appeal in the face of the very fact that with one limited exception, which the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has mentioned, the Labour Government did not publish these risk registers when they were in government? Where would that leave us, even if the detailed reasons become available?
I was slightly taken aback by the use of the expression “rush” from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton. I submit that a debate over revealing an up-to-date risk register might just have some merits, but not in these circumstances, where its contents are of historical interest only.
Lord Grocott
I am certain that the House wants to reach a conclusion, but that is a bad way to start.
Lord Campbell of Alloway
Thank you very much. I will make one short point. All your Lordships, wherever you may sit in this House, know perfectly well that if this Bill is delayed, urgent requisite reform cannot be used or done, to the detriment of the public. For that reason alone, I oppose this amendment.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, I am sure that we are about to reach a conclusion. I want simply to make an obvious point which may have been missed. It is that we have had an interesting debate, going on now for the best part of an hour, most of which has not been about the amendment on the Order Paper. I know that this can be disturbing at times, but I would like to remind the House of what it is going to make a decision about—or, perhaps, what it is not making a decision about. It is not making a decision about the freedom of information legislation, on much of which I might find myself in complete agreement with the noble Lords, Lord Butler and Lord Wilson. It has many problems and difficulties associated with it, not least for Ministers. Ministers in this Government are finding that, just as much as Ministers in the previous Government did. However, it is not about the merits of the Freedom of Information Act—that is for another time. It is not about the merits of risk registers, good, bad or indifferent, and there are all those categories of risk registers. It is not about the merits of the Bill, where we are considering whether it should have a Third Reading now. It is about the momentous decision that the House must reach shortly: whether the Third Reading of this Bill should be delayed for, in my estimate, three weeks. That is the decision we are being asked to make.
With respect to previous speakers, that makes one or two of their contributions problematic, if not redundant: those who have suggested that somehow it will be very serious, if not cataclysmic, for the health service in this country if the Bill is further delayed. I have not been involved with the debates on the Bill, but it already seems to have been going on for most of my life, as far as I can see; certainly for 12 months. Are we really being asked to accept the proposition that a further three weeks—that is my estimate, and I will come to my question to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in a moment—will somehow traumatise the health service? That is an unsustainable proposition. I would not have voted for the amendment had it not referred to the specific point at the end, which is that the House must be able to reach a decision on Third Reading before Prorogation. That is what we are being asked to do. As we all know, the Queen’s Speech is in May—I cannot remember the date—so Prorogation is not too far away.
I know that the House will not vote on the basis of the point that I am making. The proposition is simple and straightforward, and I cannot believe that it is of the cataclysmic significance that one or two speakers have suggested. I have no doubt that we have reached the stage, which we have all been around long enough to recognise with this kind of legislation, where government supporters just want to get it over with, for which I do not blame them, and the Opposition want to ensure, even at this eleventh minute of the eleventh hour, that they have a few more opportunities to point that this really is a bad Bill—a view held not only by the Opposition but by the whole of the medical profession and, as far as we know, most of the public.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I would like to add to the question well raised by the previous speaker and ask the Minister to go one step further. I reread the wording of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, and I am not entirely clear what the effect would be if, when the Tribunal’s detailed reasons were made available, the Government then decided to appeal that decision. Would that put an end to the noble Lord’s attempt to have the risk register available before we finalise the Bill or would it mean, as I think from the wording that it would, that the matter was at an end and we would proceed to Third Reading?
Lord Armstrong of Ilminster
My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and my noble friend Lord Wilson of Dinton in advising the House not to support the Amendment to the Motion. I do not want to go into any more detail on the risk registers. They need to be comprehensive and candid; if there is a risk of publishing them, the compilers will be less likely to make them as comprehensive and candid as they need to be in order to be of value. When the Information Commissioner suggests that, even if this is published, people will be equally comprehensive and candid in future, I am afraid that I think he is guilty of wishful thinking.
There is a process with this risk register. I understand that we have not yet seen the reasons for the decision reached by the Tribunal. When that is known, the Government have the right to appeal. I hope that they exercise it because the considerations against publication, as they have been stated more than once today, are very cogent. That process is likely to take a great deal longer than the three weeks that the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, gives the Bill. The only sensible course now is to disentangle the business of the risk register and the business of passing the Bill, to let the Bill go forward and not to support the Amendment to the Motion.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, little needs to be added to the eloquent and succinct arguments deployed by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, and built on by my noble friends Lady Jay, Lord Peston and Lord Grocott, and my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer. These arguments are in the best liberal tradition and should be supported by anyone who genuinely believes in openness and transparency.
Many people inside and outside the House have expressed concerns about the risk posed by this Bill, especially the implementation of the biggest-ever reorganisation of the National Health Service. It was those fears that led to the initial request by my right honourable friend John Healey 18 months ago. I do not think that even the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, could imagine that it was a plot of some kind to delay the Bill at this point. I can assure the noble Baroness that that it is not the case. What is being considered here is a risk register maintained for the transition programme; for the work necessary to implement the changes in the Bill. That is going to be done together with delivering the Nicholson challenge, so there are huge challenges to our National Health Service. It is not the same as a departmental risk register, which might be closer to policy matters and advice, and the concerns expressed by many noble Lords, particularly those who have been Ministers and Permanent Secretaries.
My noble friend Lord Grocott is right. What is being asked for here are three weeks to see what this says. Surely the balance of public interest lies in disclosure, to enable consideration of this Bill to be as effective as possible. In short, we needed it in November to do our job adequately and we still need it. Noble Lords have said that it will be now out of date, but that is a question I asked many months ago and I was assured that it would not be the out-of-date register that would be available, but the most current. I say to those representatives of Permanent Secretaries in your Lordships’ House that the last time they engaged with this matter—never with the Bill, but with this matter—I quoted “Yes Minister” at them. I shall be less elevated this time. I shall use the Mandy Rice-Davies defence and say, “Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they?”.
I agree that it is time to move on. The issue is simple enough; we need to understand the risks in order properly to consider the Bill. We did need them. We have time to take this matter in hand. The answers are very clear and we should support the noble Lord, Lord Owen.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, as ever I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Owen, for speaking in such clear terms to the amendment he has tabled. I am equally grateful to other noble Lords who have contributed to this debate, on both sides of the argument. At the heart of this, I suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Owen, is putting forward two propositions. The first is that the Government have concealed the nature of the risks associated with the Health and Social Care Bill and therefore the House has a right to be made aware of what the department’s transition risk register contains. The second proposition is that the Government’s refusal to publish the risk register is inherently improper under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act. In other words, the alleged sin of concealment on the part of Ministers is compounded by an unreasonable obduracy in not complying with the decision of the Information Commissioner and now the First-tier Tribunal. It will not surprise the House to hear that I fundamentally reject both propositions. First, the suggestion that the Government have consciously set about concealing the risks associated with the NHS—
Lord Owen
Before the noble Earl continues on that path, I have never used the word “concealment” in any of the many speeches I have made on this Bill. I also do not believe that it is improper for the Government to appeal on both those points. I do not mind my argument being destroyed, but if there has been any lack of clarity, I have said neither of those propositions.
Earl Howe
I accept the first point. In his article yesterday in the Observer, he called it “constitutional outrage”— or words to that effect—which was the point of my second proposition. Other noble Lords have made the accusation that the Government have consciously set about concealing the risks associated with the NHS reform programme, but that allegation does not stand up to a moment’s scrutiny.
The Bill was published some 14 months ago. During that time it has been subjected to a level of analysis, both inside and outside Parliament, that is without recent precedent. I am not just referring to the Bill’s impact assessment, which runs to 200 pages and dissects the risks, costs and benefits of the Bill clearly and meticulously. Nor am I referring only to the two successive NHS operating frameworks of 2010 and 2011, which lay out for all to see the risks of putting the NHS reform programme into practice, and how the service can best mitigate those risks. Nor do I wish to highlight only the extensive oral and written evidence that we provided to two House of Commons Select Committees, whose reports took apart a very wide range of risks to which the reforms give rise and made recommendations on the back of that. As much as any of these documents, it is the debates that have taken place in Parliament that have aired the risks associated with the Bill. When added together across both Houses, those debates have been of unparalleled duration and scope.
Noble Lords may recall the statement that I made on 28 November 2011, in which I set out a list of nine headings, summarising the areas of risk contained in the transition risk register. Many of those areas of risk have been the subject of amendments and debates during the Bill’s passage through the House. For example, one of the risk areas was,
“how to ensure that lines of accountability are clear in the new system and that different bodies work together effectively”.
Noble Lords will need no reminding of the amendments that we agreed across the House on the chain of accountability in the NHS or the lengthy debates that preceded them. A further risk area was,
“how to ensure that future commissioning plans are robust, and to maximise the capability of the future NHS Commissioning Board”.
We have debated and passed amendments on health inequalities, conflicts of interest, research, education and training and a whole lot more, all of which will directly contribute to those worthwhile objectives. Another area was how,
“to ensure that the new system delivers future efficiencies”.— [Official Report, 28/11/11; col. 16.]
Our debates on integration, the tariff and many other topics have focused on that theme, and there are more such examples. Therefore, I cannot accept for one minute that without sight of the transition risk register the House has somehow been denied a deep insight into what the Bill means for the NHS. It is an absurd proposition.
Why, then, is there such an issue over the release of the risk register? We heard the answer to that from the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Dinton. We are dealing here with something for which I make no apology—namely, a point of principle. It is very firmly the view of the Government—here I refer to departments right across Whitehall—that the release of departmental risk registers would seriously undermine the work of civil servants if it became an accepted practice. Civil servants need to be able to formulate policy advice for Ministers fully, frankly and without fear that what they say may be exposed to the public gaze. The moment that officials feel inhibited in setting out the possible risks attached to a course of action in worst-case terms, the process of policy formulation becomes weaker and good government inevitably suffers. It is our belief, as it has been the belief of successive Governments, that to agree to the release of a risk register such as the one associated with the Bill would be to cross a Rubicon. It would remove the safe space that Ministers and civil servants need to do their job thoroughly and properly.
The potential for making that judgment was explicitly recognised and allowed for in the Freedom of Information Act. Indeed, our decision to invoke the Act in order not to release the department’s strategic risk register was upheld by the First-tier Tribunal. We await the tribunal’s reasons for arriving at this conclusion, and for arriving at the opposite conclusion with regard to the transition risk register. When those reasons are before us, the Government will need to take a decision on whether there may be grounds for a further appeal. Until then, no one can tell what the legal basis of the judgment is.
Lord Grocott
The point was not about any length of time that the process of appeal might take. This Motion specifically rules out any delay on that basis. It states that Third Reading should take place whichever is the sooner—when the decision is made or whenever is the final date for consideration of Third Reading before the end of the Session. I put it again to the noble Earl: what is his estimate of the last date that we could consider the Third Reading in time for the Bill to become law in this Session?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I take that to be the meaning of the Motion; in fact, it presents the House will an either/or decision, which if passed, would leave us in an uncertain situation. However, I take it that the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, means that, failing the first alternative, the second applies.
I have discussed the parliamentary timetable at length with my noble friends, as might be supposed. I am advised that in reality there is little time left in this Session, but there is a great deal of business left to complete: the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill is on Report; the Scotland Bill is still in Committee; and we await our amendments to other Bills to come back from the other place, whose own schedule is complicated by the Budget, Easter and the Finance Bill. The clear advice that I have received from the business managers is that to delay Third Reading to await the tribunal’s reasons and a government response would put into serious jeopardy all the excellent work that this House has done to make this a better Bill.
I put it firmly to the House that we need to get on with the Bill. Today is the 25th full day on which we have been discussing it, and during that time it has been greatly improved. There is no major issue in it to which the House has not done justice. Delaying Third Reading would, in my submission, be wrong and wholly unwarranted. We need to get on with it, and the NHS needs certainty—the certainty of the Bill being on the statute book. I therefore urge your Lordships in the strongest terms to reject the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, and allow Third Reading to proceed this afternoon.
Lord Owen
My Lords, we have heard a lot of speeches and I do not intend to take long, but I reiterate—if any noble Lord has come in late to this debate—that they should again read the amendment. It makes it clear that what we are trying to do is find enough time—a matter of a few weeks—to hear the opinion of the tribunal that has found against the Government on the disclosure of the risk register. That is a provision within the Freedom of Information Act and follows the earlier decision against the Government arguing for the disclosure of the transitional risk register by the commissioner.
It is pretty unusual for the Government to find two such rulings against them, and it seems perfectly legitimate, before making a final decision—which I readily concede has to be made before Prorogation—to give the courtesy, let alone anything else, of hearing the judgment. It is almost as if we are afraid of the judgment.
In fairness to Professor Angel, we heard from the former Lord Chancellor about his credentials. People do not sit on the tribunal for freedom of information just on one case. They have made many different judgments; they know the issues. With respect to the former Permanent Cabinet Secretaries who have spoken, those who sit on the tribunal know the issues—I do not say as well as former Cabinet Secretaries, but they were looking at it from one side of the equation, the well-being of the Civil Service and the service and information they gave to Ministers. The Freedom of Information Act looks at it from a wider perspective. It looks at it for the good governance of the country as a whole. It urges people to look at why we have open government and greater transparency: because people find it much easier then to accept democratic decisions. This is about a democratic process.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, I have listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Owen, has said. My understanding from his earlier intervention was that he felt it important for your Lordships’ House to understand what was in the transitional risk register so that that would inform its debate on Third Reading. In the light of what my noble friend Lord Howe said—that it is almost certain that that material would not come into the public domain over the next few weeks, as I think that the noble Lord accepts—all that would come into the public domain over the next few weeks would be the reasons why the judgment was made, not the content of the transitional risk register itself. Therefore, I just want to be clear that the noble Lord is saying that all that your Lordships’ House could do would be to debate the reasons of the tribunal, not the content of the risk register. I am not clear how the reasons of the tribunal would inform our Third Reading debate.
Lord Owen
It is exactly the wording of the amendment,
“to consider the detailed reasons for the first-tier tribunal decision”,
if there is sufficient time. This is the issue of freedom of information. I have already openly admitted that Governments tend to restrict information and Oppositions want the maximum amount of information. That is the inherent tension which the Freedom of Information Act was established to try to resolve. It seems wiser to listen to those voices.
The noble Earl raised the question of constitutional issues. The Bill raises some serious constitutional issues. The Government have no mandate for the Bill. They specifically went to the electorate and said that there would be no top-down reorganisation of the National Health Service. That is considered by a lot of people outside this House to be a flagrant lie. That is one constitutional issue.
Lord Owen
I said that people outside this House consider it to be a flagrant lie. I have been around Parliament long enough to know what I cannot say and what I can.
There is another aspect to the Bill. The Government also fought an election on the basis of a constitutional promise that there would be no increase in the powers of EU legislation unless there was a referendum. There are very serious questions about the Bill as to the impact on EU legislation and the extent to which we will see the Commission making decisions on the National Health Service that it has not hitherto thought it either wise or, possibly, empowered to make. That is the second big constitutional question.
Lord Owen
No, the noble Lord has had his say. All I am saying now to the House is that this is a decision on which there are strong opinions in many ways. A lot of Members will vote just on the basis that under no circumstances do they want risk registers published.
I say only this—that when companies are having an IPO, we legislate for them to produce the fullest, most detailed risk register of this. We also empower them in their annual, and in the case of America in their quarterly, statements to reveal risk registers at a penalty of going to court if they lie about it. There were times in this debate when I almost thought we were being asked to give a complete carte blanche to the Civil Service to say what it liked irrespective. I hope that is not the position of the Cabinet Secretaries and the Permanent Secretaries. It is possible that either a commissioner or a tribunal might look at a risk register and think that there were flagrant factual errors.
I think it is very dangerous to use “principle” on this question, if I may say so to the noble Earl. The principle surely cannot be that under the Freedom of Information Act some risk registers might never need to be published in the public good. That is a judgment on which, as he says, one can then go to appeal. However, there comes a point when one would have to judge against the background of repeated demands for disclosure. It is on this that the House must make up its mind. Can we wait a couple of weeks—three at the most—before the House prorogues to hear the words of the chairman of the appeal tribunal to whom we in the Freedom of Information Act gave the power to make that decision? The fact that it is against the Government does not mean we should give them a carte blanche, and I hope that this House will not do so. I wish therefore to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Patel of Bradford
Lord Patel of Bradford
My Lords, I speak to Amendments 1 to 6 in respect of Clause 8 of the Bill. As noble Lords will no doubt have realised, Amendment 1 is slightly different from the one that was debated on Report and I will explain why my noble friend Lord Noon and I have tabled it.
VAT recovery for charities is an important issue and one that has received considerable support. Indeed, my previous amendment to the Bill was passed. I will not repeat all the arguments made on Report but given the changed nature of the amendment I feel I should explain some of the differences.
I am very indebted to Sue Ryder Care for its support and invaluable information in preparing this amendment. It stems directly from its campaign, which started in 2011, to raise awareness about the problem of irrecoverable VAT for charities providing healthcare services. For example, the NHS is able to recover VAT on certain non-business supplies that charities cannot. This may hinder them from taking full advantage of the Government’s agenda, which will see more services outsourced from the NHS to other providers. It can be seen as a significant barrier to entry for charities which may be forced to use their charitable funds to pay the VAT.
Lord Noon
My Lords, I speak in support of Amendments 1 to 6. I add my thanks to the Minister for his support in seeking to improve this Amendment, which I believe has been done in a number of ways. I should also declare an interest in these matters as chair of the Noon Foundation, which provides financial support to charities and other not-for-profit organisations, including those caring for people in end-of-life situations, such as the Marie Curie Cancer Care charity.
As a philanthropist and a businessman, I understand very well the importance of having a level playing field. We all know the immense value that is provided by charities, social enterprises and small voluntary agencies. I believe that they form the bedrock of our society. They provide essential support and care to those who are most in need, and do so on a daily basis.
The VAT issue for me is very clear. As someone who provides funding for charitable work, I do not want to see those funds taken up paying VAT that was not charged to the NHS when it provided the service. However, we need to go beyond VAT and look at all the barriers faced by the not-for-profit sector. As a business man, I understand the significant risks taken on in any new enterprise. There must be adequate time to accumulate capital, contracts must be fair and any additional undertaking such as the transfer of staff must be fully funded. So why should we expect any less of the charitable and not-for-profit sector? Is it fair that those organisations which exist solely for the benefit of those they serve should be penalised for not being wealthy private enterprises?
Even an issue such as insurance can be difficult. Most of these organisations rely on volunteers, people who have chosen to freely give their time because they want to give something back to society. However, as more services are taken on with a wider range of activities, the risks increase and so too do the insurance premiums. These increased costs are not always taken into account in contracts and can represent an excessive and increasing burden for charities.
However, this is not only about levelling up the playing field to be fair; this is about the kind of healthcare organisations we want to see thrive. At a time when government resources are severely challenged and shrinking—we cannot hope to manage solely on charitable donations—bringing the not-for-profit sector more firmly into mainstream provision of services is one of the ways in which we can continue to provide much needed care, but this will work only if we ensure that these organisations can enter the market fairly and with fully costed and supported service contracts.
In supporting these amendments, the Government are accepting that this is a vital issue and they have made a commitment to provide a report with recommendations within a set timescale. This represents a significant move in the right direction and I commend the amendments.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I strongly support the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Noon, in seeking to promote the role of the not-for-profit sector within the NHS, as indeed I do across the whole of the public sector. They have given reasons why within the NHS, particularly at this point, the not-for profit sector can play a valuable role. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, pointed out, there are a number of serious technical problems facing the sector in successfully bidding for contracts, and he has dealt with some of them.
I remind the House that least week Royal Assent was received for the Public Services (Social Value) Bill which requires all procurers, including those in the NHS, to consider the social value of a tender as well as its financial value, in such explicit terms, for the first time. This is one of the pieces of the jigsaw which I hope will mean that the not-for-profit sector finds it easier to successfully bid for business. The Bill lays a requirement on the public sector, but the problem is whether the public sector will implement the Bill and take the provision seriously. It would be relatively easy for it not to.
Therefore, I and other noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, who have been supportive of this principle and the Bill, seek to ensure that the Government put in place specific measures to ensure that procurers take account of the Bill rather than it simply lying idle on the statute book. When we debated this issue at an earlier stage in your Lordships’ House, the Minister suggested that it might be possible to refer to this in the draft commission of procurement regulations, and I hope that he will be able to confirm today that that is the Government’s intention.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I commend the Government on making a move in the right direction with these amendments. At earlier stages in the Bill, I tried to raise the whole issue of barriers to entry for new providers of services. This amendment helps in some respects but the noble Lord, Lord Newby, made an extremely important point. How will we know whether the culture has changed not just in relation to not-for-profits and social enterprises but for new providers, sometimes from inside the NHS? There is a deep conservatism—with a small “c”—about how the NHS goes about allowing new players to come into the game. We need the Government to give assurances that they will keep a close eye on this. As I put forward in a previous amendment, they must get Monitor to keep a close eye on the extent to which anti-competitive behaviour by the existing NHS stops new providers from whatever source—not-for-profit, social enterprise, charities, the private sector and from within the NHS—being able, when they offer a better solution to patients’ problems, to make their pitch for an alternative way of doing business.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, I very much welcome the fact that these amendments have the Minister’s name on them. He has already made some concessions in relation to indemnity for these providers where they provide services for and on behalf of the NHS for patients. It seems completely right that some of the difficulties that they have faced in being able to provide flexible patient and family-focused services should be considered and looked at separately. As has already been said, in end-of-life care the charitable sector has completely revolutionised what is available to patients. I know that Marie Curie has done that. They even admitted a dog so that a patient would come in, and allowed that dog to be formally adopted, which enabled the patient to die peacefully because the dog was the only person that the man really loved in life. That flexibility makes all the difference. You would not find that provision or ability to meet an individual patient’s needs in many other parts of the sector.
This group of amendments is really important and to be welcomed. This morning, I was with Help the Hospices, which expressed concern on behalf of some very small organisations as to how they would cope in the new world in being able to continue providing the services that they want to. This group of amendments will provide them with a great deal of assurance.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am pleased to conclude what has been a very good and constructive debate. I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, for raising these important issues, both now and in Committee. As he stated, since his original Amendment 46 was introduced in Committee, we have worked together on this alternative amendment. While this has to some extent been a joint venture, all credit for the inspiration behind it must go to the noble Lord—along with the noble Lord, Lord Noon, whose strong commitment to the charitable sector is well known.
I can add little more to what the noble Lord has said, but it might be helpful to clarify a small number of points. First, I reassure the House that the Government are committed to a fair playing field for all providers of NHS services. We are particularly keen for voluntary sector organisations and social enterprises of all types and sizes to be involved. These providers are often among the most innovative and can offer highly personalised and bespoke services that meet the needs of local people. We understand that it is not just charities but the full range of voluntary sector providers—mutuals, co-operatives and social enterprises—that noble Lords are keen to see delivering NHS services. The new amendment enables a fair, transparent and impartial consideration of the issues, addressing all providers and possible means of responding to their concerns. I can confirm that the full intention is to look at how existing barriers can be removed, not to create new obstacles.
Secondly, as noble Lords are aware, a variety of barriers affect different providers. This includes not only payment of taxation but also access to and the cost of capital, the difficulty of securing appropriate insurance and indemnity, and the difficulty of bidding due to the scale or scope of contracts. The amendment therefore relates to a review of the full range of issues that affect the ability of providers or potential providers to deliver services for the NHS. I am sure noble Lords will agree that the potential is truly enormous.
We are clear that this is an important issue, which is why we want the report to be statutory and therefore accountable to Parliament and produced within 12 months of Royal Assent. Equally, it is crucial that the duty for the Secretary of State to keep these matters under review is in the Bill.
I can also assure noble Lords that the preparation of the report will involve full engagement with providers from all sectors, commissioners, and other stakeholders, such as Members of this House, to ensure that the full range of issues are considered and each of the concerns addressed. In particular, it will ensure that concerns around treatment for VAT of supplies of healthcare services or associated goods to the NHS by charities, including hospices, are considered. In response to the specific question of the noble Lord, I can confirm we would not see this review as in any way being slanted towards giving private sector firms a ‘leg up’.
This review will look at the barriers to achieving a fair playing field, and recommend actions to be taken to address them. We are already well aware that a number of the most deep-seated barriers affect voluntary sector providers, not those from the private sector. While I would not want to prejudge the result of the review, I fully expect that it will put forward a number of actions which could be taken to remove such barriers, thereby better enabling third sector providers to compete fairly with other providers of NHS services. I hope this reassures the noble Lord that, while I think we should look across all providers, it is our view that barriers facing voluntary sector providers are greater than those facing the private sector and we expect the review to focus accordingly on those.
I turn to the separate but related issue raised by my noble friend Lord Newby. We have also listened to the matters raised in other debates during this Bill and during the passage of the Public Services (Social Value) Bill, about the need to take social value into consideration in public sector procurement more generally. The Government agree that a wide-angle lens on the extended social, economic and environmental benefits when conducting procurement exercises can only be helpful. Today I am going further and put on the public record that the Secretary of State for Health is committing that the requirements in the public services Bill will be fully applied in relation to commissioning of NHS services through the procurement guidance that the board will produce on this. These were issues that were raised very compellingly by the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and I pay tribute to him for his powerful and consistent advocacy on this theme.
I hope very much that your Lordships will find the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, agreeable and I will be happy to support it.
Lord Patel of Bradford
I am very grateful for the Minister’s support in this and for taking it a lot further than I had done initially. I have learnt an enormous amount while we have been discussing these issues and I am sure that the not-for-profit sector will be very grateful for the support provided by the Government on this issue. I am sure it will raise a number of very important factors that will improve service provision for those areas.
Lord Patel of Bradford
“(2) The report must include recommendations as to how any differences in the treatment of NHS health care providers identified in the report could be addressed.
(3) The Secretary of State must keep under review the treatment of NHS health care providers as respects any such matter as is mentioned in subsection (1).
(4) In this section—
(a) “NHS health care providers” means persons providing or intending to provide health care services for the purposes of the NHS, and(b) “health care services for the purposes of the NHS” has the same meaning as in Part 3 of the Health and Social Care Act 2012.”
Earl Howe
My Lords, I will speak also to Amendments 9 and 10. The three amendments in this group share a common purpose in strengthening the duties on the NHS Commissioning Board and CCGs in relation to reducing inequalities. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Tyler for highlighting on Report the need to ensure this, and I promised at the time to introduce the necessary amendments at Third Reading to achieve it.
New sections 13G and 14T place duties on the NHS Commissioning Board and CCGs to have regard to the need to reduce inequalities between patients with respect to their ability to access health services, and to the outcomes achieved for them by the provision of health services. As the Bill stands, the NHS Commissioning Board and CCGs must assess in their annual reports how they have discharged this duty. However, they are not explicitly required to plan for this and, in the case of CCGs, not specifically assessed on this in the board’s annual performance assessments. These amendments introduce explicit requirements on these points. They require the board to include in its business plan, and CCGs to include in their annual commissioning plans, an explanation of how they intend to discharge their inequalities duties. I remind noble Lords that CCGs will consult on their commissioning plans with those for whom they are responsible, and must involve each relevant health and well-being board in preparing and revising their plans.
The amendments also require the board to specifically assess in its annual performance assessment of CCGs how they have discharged their inequalities duty. So CCGs will have to set out in their plans how they will take account of the need to reduce health inequalities and report on how they have done this in their annual reports, which is of course already a provision in the Bill. Their performance on this will then be one of the factors taken into account by the board when it assesses their performance. Together, these amendments ensure that from the development of the plans to the reporting on their effects, having regard to the need to reduce inequalities will be given particular emphasis and importance by commissioners. I beg to move.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield
My Lords, I shall speak to government Amendments 7, 9 and 10, to which my name is attached, and in so doing I thank the Minister for tabling them. As he has explained, they all relate to health inequalities; I would like briefly to place them into a wider context. In doing so, given that this is Third Reading, I make one general point. My view from the outset has been that this Bill should be judged ultimately by the health outcomes it produces—essentially, whether and how it improves people’s lives, particularly the most vulnerable. Because so much of the debate over the past year has—necessarily, I guess—been about structures, I sometimes feel that we have rather lost sight of this fundamental point. One specific point that has not received enough airspace in our deliberations, perhaps until today, is about reducing health inequalities—or, put another way, doing something real about unequal life chances. At the very outset, I felt that the fact that this legislation contains a landmark legal duty for the Secretary of State to reduce health inequalities was really significant.
As the noble Earl has explained, as the Bill has progressed through its various stages this duty has been strengthened at various levels in the new structure, so that reducing health inequalities now runs through the whole fabric of the health system in a way that we have not seen before. I will not repeat precisely what these amendments do, because they have been very ably set out. Briefly, however, in relation to the requirement that each CCG’s performance is assessed each year by the board and includes the progress made in reducing health inequalities, we all know that what gets measured gets done. That is what makes this significant.
However, we should not look at these specific duties in isolation from other key aspects of the Bill on accessibility and integration. New duties to join up services between health, social care and other local services, such as housing and homeless support, will have a crucial role to play here. The role of health and well-being boards in promoting joint commissioning should enable more integrated services, particularly, for example, for older people and people with learning disabilities. Finally, the much stronger focus on public health—I greatly welcome its return to local authorities—will be key to tackling issues such as obesity, smoking, drug and alcohol abuse and sexual health, which make a real difference in reducing health inequalities. This all adds up to a much stronger package than we have had before. Of course, the proof of the pudding will always be in the eating, but this very welcome shining of the spotlight on health inequalities has the potential to be a game-changer for some of the most vulnerable.
However, in case noble Lords think that I am being too uncritical, I finish on a point of concern. Local authorities are well placed to tackle inequalities, due to their responsibilities for education, housing and other factors which impact on health. The current proposition for holding councils to account for this is through what the Government call a health premium, to give extra money to those areas that reduce health inequalities. We need to be careful that this does not simply reward those areas where it is easiest to tackle inequalities and divert money away from areas where more fundamental problems may slow down progress.
In thanking the noble Earl most sincerely for tabling these amendments and paying tribute to his strong personal commitment on these issues, I respectfully ask him whether he will keep the health premium under review as it is rolled out.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am very grateful for the helpful and supportive comments that have been made by my noble friend. I can give her the assurance that she sought in her closing remarks that we will certainly keep the health premium under review. However, she will know that the design of that premium is work in progress at the moment and I take fully on board the point that she made about it.
It is perhaps helpful if I make it absolutely clear that the duties on commissioners in respect of reducing inequalities are intended to be as important as any other duty on a CCG, and are most definitely not subordinate to other duties. In particular, I would like to make it clear that they are not secondary to the duties in relation to patient choice.
I hope that noble Lords will recognise that these amendments give a central place to the duty in relation to reducing inequalities within the arrangements by which the board and CCGs will plan for, and be held to account for, their commissioning activity. I hope that for this reason noble Lords will give them their support.
“( ) the provision of integrated urgent and emergency care at all times.”
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
I am grateful to the Minister for meeting me with the President and Vice President of the College of Emergency Medicine and for listening so attentively to the concerns raised. This amendment comes from those discussions and aims to resolve the potential lacuna around the commissioning and the provision of unscheduled urgent and emergency care at all times of day and night.
Emergency medicine departments—commonly known as A&E—see 15 million patients a year, of whom about a quarter are children. About 7.5 million patients arriving in A&E are not ambulant. Typically one-third of these on a stretcher need to be admitted, most frequently into an acute medical bed. The extent of seriously ill and injured attendees is illustrated by the fact that one in 50 will need high levels of care. A quarter of all intensive care admissions come through A&E and seriously ill patients go straight to coronary care and high dependency units from the resuscitation room in the emergency department.
The full spectrum of integrated services has to involve acute medicine, acute surgery and orthopaedics, paediatrics, obstetrics and gynaecology and is crucially underpinned by critical care and anaesthesia.
These very seriously ill patients need integrated services along the whole care pathway; care cannot be broken up. The full spectrum of back-up services with radiology and laboratory services needs to be there 24/7. The best outcomes—and we were talking just now about patient outcomes—for trauma and stroke victims are absolutely reliant on immediate cross-sectional imaging, ideally co-located in the emergency department.
There is a need for closer integration and improvement of the services needed to care for emergency department patients. For example, those with mental health problems, both acute suicidal ideation and acute psychosis, and those with drug and alcohol problems, need a comprehensive integrated psychiatry service, as they are a very vulnerable group. Improving primary care, both out of hours and alongside emergency departments, is essential if departments are to deliver the best care and not be overwhelmed. This will require close collaboration, integration and accurately informed commissioning.
Emergency departments are the 24/7 final safety net for all other services in the healthcare system and they are the last open-access point of call. Escalation of a problem, failure in community care and inadequate out-of-hours primary care support all result in urgent presentation out of hours. Such patients often arrive at night, are unstable clinically and cannot be sent home again, as they are alone or unable to monitor the condition reliably. These 7 per cent to 8 per cent of attendees need to be observed for up to 24 hours in a clinical decision unit, where there is twice daily consultant input, either until they are stable enough to be sent home, or until deterioration indicates admission and ongoing management.
Emergency departments are busy places, providing 24/7 care, looking after patients with wide-ranging needs from resuscitation to reassurance, and interacting with many specialties to ensure the best care. The seriously ill initially need the close interaction of typically three to four specialties; any fragmentation threatens the quality of care.
Commissioning of services in emergency care is optimised by direct and close working between those specialists responsible for delivery and the local commissioners. Given the size and complexity of urgent and emergency care, this should mandate such a specialist on the local commissioning board.
The challenge to us with this Bill is to ensure that commissioning processes recognise that patient choice in emergency care is inappropriate, as every patient needs access to a quality service that is fully integrated with pre-hospital services such as out-of-hours primary care and ambulance services, and with all the back-up and specialist services that patients are moved to for ongoing management.
The national Commissioning Board must work very closely with the College of Emergency Medicine to ensure that commissioning guidance drives up the standards of weaker departments, that the integration of services is included in the commissioning and that the urgent and emergency service for a population has the full skill set to deal with the full range of undifferentiated clinical problems that arrive at the only open access point of care. It is key to local commissioning that specialists in urgent and emergency care are directly involved. Without that, we will replicate Mid Staffordshire, but it may not be evident until unnecessarily large numbers of lives are lost. I beg to move.
Baroness Hollins
My Lords, given the concerns among the medical profession which are still evident, I ask the noble Earl for reassurance that, for those services where commissioning is appropriate, competition will always be on the basis of quality, not price, and that providers will not be able to cherry-pick lucrative parts of the care pathway to the detriment of vulnerable patients, such as people with learning disability or severe mental illness—people that I am particularly concerned about as a psychiatrist. The health and well-being of these patients depends on the effective delivery and co-ordination of complex care pathways.
According to the Guardian, NHS Devon and Devon County Council have shortlisted bids to provide front-line services for children across the county, including some of the most sensitive care for highly vulnerable children and families, such as child protection, treatment for mentally ill children and adolescents, therapy and respite care for those with disabilities, health visiting, palliative nursing for dying children, and so on. On the shortlist for the £130 million three-year NHS contract are two private profit-making companies as well as the Devon Partnership NHS Trust, which has been bidding along with Barnardo’s and other local charities.
The contract will apparently be awarded, according to the criteria, to the most economically advantageous bid, which appears to be possible under current commissioning arrangements. I seek reassurance from the Minister that the new safeguards in the Bill also prevent such commissioning decisions risking the perceived risks raised by my noble friend with respect to the commissioning of integrated care pathways in emergency care. I am referring not just to the emergency care part of the pathway but to the whole care pathway, which inevitably requires stable working relationships across organisational boundaries.
Earl Howe
My Lords, this is an important topic. The noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Hollins, have eloquently set out the important role that emergency care services play for all of us, and I could not agree more.
The Government are clear about the need to strive continuously for improved quality of urgent and emergency care. The move to clinical quality indicators for A&E and ambulance services will ensure a better reflection of the quality of the services that patients receive, rather than encouraging an isolated focus on time factors. Furthermore, the introduction of the NHS 111 service supports the commitment to develop a coherent 24/7 urgent care service in every area of England that makes sense to patients when they have to make choices about their care.
I hope that I can reassure the noble Baroness about how clinical commissioning groups will be supported in commissioning high quality emergency care. The NHS Commissioning Board will produce commissioning guidance, and also may produce guidance on the exercise of CCGs’ duty to obtain advice under new Section 14W. Both of these will reinforce the importance of effective and informed commissioning of emergency care. We have had many debates about clinical advice for commissioners during the course of our deliberations and, as I have previously mentioned, we anticipate that the clinical senates and networks that the Board will host will provide a resource of expertise, including in urgent and emergency care, on which CCGs can draw to inform their commissioning decisions. Equally, in order effectively to discharge their own duties with regard to obtaining appropriate advice, the NHS Commissioning Board would also need to take advice from a range of experts in order to assist them in producing such guidance. I understand that the College of Emergency Medicine has already engaged in useful conversations with the Commissioning Board Authority about how such engagement could work as it moves forward.
I reiterate the framework within the Bill for ensuring the accountability of CCGs in relation to the discharge of their duty under new Section 14W. CCGs must demonstrate, as part of authorisation, that they have the competence to carry out their functions effectively, and they will be held to account on that. As part of the authorisation process, the NHS Commissioning Board would need to be satisfied that a CCG can effectively commission the full range of services that its populations are likely to require, which of course would include urgent and emergency care services. It would also need to be satisfied that a CCG had the appropriate mechanisms in place to ensure that it could discharge its duty to obtain the appropriate level of advice in relation to these services. I also reassure the noble Baroness that the performance assessment of CCGs by the NHS Commissioning Board will look in particular at how they have discharged their duty to obtain advice.
The noble Baroness suggested that we should mandate that an emergency care specialist should have a seat on the CCGs’ governing body. As your Lordships are aware from our previous debates on membership following the NHS Future Forum report, we committed to use regulations to specify a minimum membership for CCG governing bodies. We plan to specify that each body should include at least two lay members, at least one registered nurse and at least one secondary care doctor. This secondary care doctor may well be an emergency care specialist, or a CCG may choose to add additional specialists to its body should it wish to do so—there is nothing in the Bill to prevent that. However, in terms of going further and specifying that an emergency care specialist must sit on these bodies, I am afraid I cannot go that far.
The NHS Future Forum’s report states that it would be unhelpful for CCGs’ governing bodies to be representative of every group. We agree with that. The prime purpose of a governing body should be to make sure that CCGs have the right systems in place to do their job well. It is these systems that will ensure that they involve the appropriate range of health and care professionals in commissioning. Requiring a bigger group of professionals on the governing body itself would not mean that a broader range were involved in designing patient services; it would just lead to governing bodies that were too large and slow to do their job well.
Turning now to the noble Baroness’s points about integration and competition in the context of emergency care, I agree with her about the importance of integration, and the Bill contains strong provisions to encourage and enable the delivery of integrated services. I reassure her again that choice and competition will not prevent the delivery of integrated services where these are in patients’ interests. Additionally, it will of course be for commissioners to decide where to make use of choice and competition in order to best meet their patients’ needs, and it is clear that this would not always be appropriate. Emergency care is a good example of a service where we would not expect to see competition.
I take this opportunity to respond to related concerns from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, who asked about the basis for competition. The Bill is clear that competition will not be pursued as an end in itself and that competition will always be on quality, not price. We made amendments in another place to ensure that this would be the case by removing the ability of Monitor and the board to set maximum prices rather than fixed prices. I hope that that answers the noble Baroness’s question on this point.
The duty on CCGs to obtain advice is deliberately wide-ranging in scope purposefully so as to ensure that it covers the full spectrum of services that CCGs will commission. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the language of new Section 14W: the advice must be drawn from people,
“who (taken together) have a broad range of professional expertise in … the prevention, diagnosis or treatment of illness, and … the protection or improvement of public health”.
That is very inclusive and it echoes the approach taken in Section 3 of the NHS Act, which the Bill amends, to establish the fundamental commissioning responsibilities of CCGs.
Noble Lords will wish to note that the interpretation—
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. I want to ask one question. I recently met a group of general practitioners who claimed that they were too busy to be able to go out and find advice. Is there any central point, perhaps in the cluster or on the Commissioning Board, to which very busy GPs could go to get some idea about where they might obtain advice on, let us say, an unusual condition?
Earl Howe
I reassure my noble friend that there will be no shortage of advice available to CCGs once they are up and running, not only from the NHS Commissioning Board centrally—she will know that a programme of work is in hand on the part of NICE to produce quality standards that will underpin the commissioning guidance—but also from the clinical senates, which will fall under the wing of the board. We envisage that those senates will be a resource on which clinical commissioning groups can draw, not least in the area of less common conditions. We are very conscious that the quality of commissioning needs to be improved in many areas, and this is our answer to that. My noble friend has put her finger on an issue that is of central importance if the new duty to improve quality is to become a reality across the system.
Noble Lords will wish to note that the interpretation section of the NHS Act 2006 states that illness includes any disorder or disability of the mind,
“and any injury or disability requiring medical or dental treatment or nursing”.
We are absolutely clear that this covers cases relating both to physical and mental health requiring urgent and emergency care. This definition will apply to the duty to obtain advice in the new Section 14W. I hope I have been able to reassure the noble Baroness that CCGs will absolutely be expected to ensure that they obtain appropriate advice in order effectively to commission emergency and urgent care services; that they will be held to account for doing so; and that the current duty is deliberately drafted to ensure that it covers the full spectrum of services which CCGs will be expected to commission, including emergency and urgent care services. On this basis, I hope that she feels content to withdraw her amendment. I would, however, like to take this opportunity to thank the noble Baroness for our recent conversations on this topic, along with the College of Emergency Medicine.
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I both recently met with the college and found these meetings useful in exploring how we can ensure that we make the most of the opportunities presented by the new system in relation to improving the quality of emergency care. We look forward to constructive discussions with the college and with the noble Baroness as we move on to implementing the new arrangements.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
I am most grateful to the Minister for that full reply and for his recognition of the contribution that the new College of Emergency Medicine is making to the urgent care of people who are often in extremis. It is literally the life-saving service for many people every day across the country. I am also grateful for his assurance that the performance assessment of commissioners will include how they seek advice from the appropriate people who really know what they are doing, and that integration is assured. The importance of 24/7 recognition has also been brought out in his answer. I am sure that the College of Emergency Medicine will be delighted with the assurances that he has given, as will A&E consultants up and down the country. I am most grateful to him and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“(c) after “such time as the” insert “clinical commissioning group or””
Earl Howe
My Lords, I shall speak also to the other amendments in this group: 12, 13, 15, 16 and 18-29. During Report, the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, tabled an amendment to Clause 40, then Clause 39, relating to Section 117 mental health after-care services. Noble Lords will recall that in recognition of the strength of feeling on this issue, we did not oppose the noble Lord’s amendment. In the same spirit, we have now brought forward a set of consequential amendments resulting from the noble Lord’s amendment. Some of these simply tidy up the wording of the Bill as a result of the noble Lord’s amendment. Others are positive amendments to ensure that those receiving services under Section 117 of the Mental Health Act 1983 are not inadvertently excluded from benefiting from other provisions in the Bill. Specifically, the amendments ensure that Section 117 services are included in determining payments for quality; in special reviews and investigations by the Care Quality Commission; in emergency preparedness planning; in local authority scrutiny of the NHS; in NICE quality standards; and in information standards and information gathering. They also ensure that Section 117 services can continue to be available through direct payments.
I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, has welcomed these amendments, and I hope that other noble Lords will agree that it is important that Section 117 services are included in all of these cases and will support these amendments. I also take this opportunity to ask noble Lords to support two minor and technical amendments. These remove an uncertainty about the breadth of the meaning of the reference to the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales in Clause 184, by clarifying that independent advocacy services extend only to certain complaints to that Ombudsman. I beg to move.
Lord Patel of Bradford
My Lords, I am obviously very happy to add my name to the amendments tabled by the Minister in respect of Section 117 of the Mental Health Act, pertaining to after-care services. I was grateful to the noble Earl and to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for not opposing my amendment on this issue. It somewhat caught me off-guard, but I was pleased with that. I was particularly pleased that we have continued to work together to add these technical adjustments today. To remind noble Lords: Section 117 requires primary care trusts and local authority social services to work jointly in providing vital after-care services. These types of services can vary a great deal, including visits from the community psychiatric nurse, attending a day-care centre, administering medication, providing counselling and advice, and most importantly supporting accommodation within the community.
Section 117 provides crucial protection for vulnerable people because it ensures that their local primary care trusts and local authority provider supply that after-care package in an appropriate way, including sorting out the funding on an agreed basis. This means that these essential services cannot be taken away until both the PCT and local authority, in consultation with the patient and their carers or the voluntary sector—the people who are supporting some of these patients—are satisfied that the patient no longer needs their services. The original concern that the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, and I had was that Section 117 after-care was being unnecessarily diluted, as a joint duty to provide after-care was being changed. To all intents and purposes, Section 117 would have been treated as a duty under Section 3 of the NHS Act, and that would potentially have opened up the possibility of charging.
The noble Earl has laid out the protections set out in additional amendments and they are to be welcomed. They go beyond my original concerns and address a number of important issues. I will not list those listed by the noble Earl, but I was happy about the part of Section 117 arrangements that fall under the remit of the Care Quality Commission, ensuring that the regulator and monitor of services should look across patient pathways. I am particularly pleased about the amendment that ensures that Section 117 services are eligible for direct payments. This is a positive step, because it means that people detained under the Mental Health Act can take more control of the services that they receive after their release.
This is not only the right thing to do, as it will empower people who have been affected by being detained, but it is also likely to help to avoid readmissions by ensuring that people are more satisfied and engaged with services. We still have a long way to go to improve services for people detained under the Mental Health Act; in particular the experiences and outcomes when they return to the communities where they live. However, these amendments are a definite move in the right direction and I must congratulate the Minister for having the foresight and good grace to bring these amendments before the House. I wholeheartedly support them.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, in this group of amendments there are two that relate to Wales. On behalf of the NHS in Wales, I am most grateful for the clarification. Could the Minister confirm that the Public Services Ombudsman would deal with complaints by any provider who is providing services for and on behalf of the NHS, irrespective of whether that is an NHS provider or a non-NHS provider? It would be helpful to have that clarification.
Baroness Jolly
My Lords, I shall speak briefly to Amendments 15 and 16 as well. They seem to be another correction to the minutiae of the provisions to establish a system of “nothing about me without me”—patient and public involvement—which we all support. However, it seems counterintuitive to aim to empower local people to improve health and social care without checking with them on the detail of how that empowerment should take place. The checks and balances of local patient and public involvement will be particularly important as the rest of these reforms are implemented, so we must get it right now.
Most of this part of the Bill was subject to a redraft, just a week or so ago, without any public consultation. Therefore, it would be helpful if the Minister could give an undertaking that there will be public consultation on all the many regulation-making powers within it. Thirty-six provisions are dependent on regulations, as are two lots of statutory guidance and two lots of directions.
In all previous iterations of patient and public involvement structures, there has been consultation on regulations. Given the complexity of the latest set of provisions and the limited opportunity to scrutinise them, it would seem wise to consult on them. I hope that the Minister will confirm that this will be done.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, for all that he said. I hope that the House will accept the amendments, which I assure noble Lords are intended to bolster and support the amendment previously agreed by your Lordships.
To address the issues raised by my noble friend Lady Jolly, as my noble friend Lady Northover said on Report, we have always envisaged that local authorities will have some freedom and flexibility over the organisational form of their local healthwatch, depending on local needs and circumstances. On reflection, we felt the Bill did not provide the right legal framework for this policy to be realised. My noble friend Lady Jolly makes a good point about the need to get this right. I should like to reassure her that we have already begun to engage key stakeholders on the content of the regulations and will continue to do so while they are being developed.
It may also be helpful to point out that we envisage the content of a number of these regulations—for example, those on the duties of service providers to respond to local healthwatch and allow entry to local healthwatch—will be based on the current Local Involvement Network regulations.
The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asked me about the Welsh amendments. I can confirm that the ombudsman covers all patients funded by the NHS. It is not something that is judged on an organisational basis. I hope that is helpful.
“( ) In section 275 of the National Health Service Act 2006 (interpretation) after subsection (4) insert—
“(5) In each of the following, the reference to section 3 includes a reference to section 117 of the Mental Health Act 1983 (after-care)—
(a) in section 223K(8), paragraph (a) of the definition of “relevant services”,(b) in section 244(3), paragraph (a)(i) of the definition of “relevant health service provider”,(c) in section 252A(10), the definition of “service arrangements”,(d) section 253(1A)(d)(ii).”( ) In section 48 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (special reviews and investigations), in subsection (2)(ba), after “the National Health Service Act 2006” insert “or section 117 of the Mental Health Act 1983 (after-care)”.
( ) In section 97 of that Act (general interpretation of Part 1), in subsection (2A), after “section 7A of that Act)” insert “or section 117 of the Mental Health Act 1983 (after-care)”.”
Baroness Cumberlege
“( ) On abolition of the Health Protection Agency, the appropriate authority in England will take steps to ensure that any organisation established to assume the Agency’s functions (and any others deemed appropriate) will—
(a) have a Board with a non-executive Chair and a majority of non-executive directors;(b) be able to undertake and publish independent research and to bid for research funding from any source; and(c) be able to tender for contracts related to its functions.”
Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, Amendment 56 is simpler than the amendment I tabled on Report but it is necessary because I need some undertakings. I know that other noble Lords also seek those. The amendment concerns Public Health England. Both amendments found favour across the House in the previous debate, as I hope Amendment 14 will in this one. I thank noble Lords who have put their names to the amendment. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg also wished to put his name to it, but there was no room on the Marshalled List.
As I said, the amendment concerns Public Health England, the new body that is destined to take on the duties of the Health Protection Agency, the cancer registries, the National Treatment Agency, the Public Health Observatories and some of the functions of the regional directors of public health and their teams. The staff of Public Health England will number around 4,500 people, so it is an important and considerable agency. The original proposal was that the organisation should be governed by a civil servant acting as the chief executive, without a board to whom he or she would be accountable. It was a model that many of us found very strange and thought unworkable.
At the meeting we had with him and later in correspondence, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State made it clear that he values an unobstructed line of accountability between the individual charged with the day-to-day running of Public Health England and him. However, he agreed in his letter, which I received on 15 March, that Public Health England,
“needs an appropriate level of operational independence for it to be most effective”,
and that,
“it will be essential for it and the Government as a whole to work together seamlessly and to share a common agenda”.
He went on to say:
“I do accept that, if PHE is to achieve our ambitions for it, the chief executive and the Secretary of State should be seen to be subject to frank and expert challenge. To help deliver that challenge I propose to appoint a chair for PHE, through an open and fair competition under the public appointments process, and I will ensure that the PHE board has a majority of non-executives members”.
Later, he refers to them as non-executive members, rather than directors, so I seek an assurance from my noble friend Lord Howe that we are talking about directors and not members. Perhaps he will confirm this.
The board will advise on the running and development of Public Health England but my right honourable friend states that he has not yet had time to consider details of this aspect of the chairman’s role. Once the chief executive post has been filled, he will discuss the overall governance structure of PHE. He will want to make sure that the expertise and experience of the chair will complement those of the chief executive and other senior PHE staff. He goes on to say:
“The essential point is, that we need to design a role for the chair that is significant enough to attract a high quality, respected candidate without diluting the responsibility of either the chief executive or the Secretary of State”.
It is very much my wish that he should involve me further in these proposals. He says that he will write to me, but I should very much like him not only to write but perhaps to seek my views on this aspect of the organisation.
In his letter the Secretary of State writes:
“The chair and non-executive directors will have direct access to Ministers through regular, and if necessary ad hoc meetings”.
I very much welcome that. He goes on:
“They will also have editorial control over a section of PHE’s annual report”.
Could my noble friend tell me what “section” means in this context, as he will know that the annual report will be a crucial document and should be honest and unfettered in its analysis of the nation’s health? He continues:
“The annual report will reflect feedback from external agencies and individuals who have significant dealings with PHE … and PHE data will be subject to the code of practice on official statistics, which severely restricts access to certain material by officials or Ministers before release”.
Although I very much welcome this, I wonder whether my noble friend could give me an assurance that Public Health England staff will be able to give professional advice freely to the public. Since they are employed by an executive agency, they will be civil servants—subject to Civil Service contracts and bound by the Civil Service Code. They will be able speak out only if what they plan to say is departmental policy and has been approved by Ministers.
If PHE is to be the voice of public health, as we hope it will be, it will need to be able to advise the public and other professional bodies. The experts and specialists working in the executive agency will on occasions need to give professional advice that has the confidence of the public without its necessarily having been approved by the department.
Public health specialists employed by the NHS Commissioning Board or a local authority will have the freedom to speak out—of course within their professional code of conduct. I am not seeking for the amendment to be placed in the Bill but an assurance that this difficult tension will be addressed.
In earlier debates, the noble Lords, Lord Warner, Lord Patel, and Lord Turnberg, voiced their strong concerns about the commissioning and conduct of research by PHE—in particular, its ability as regards research funding for external organisations. I am sure that those noble Lords will seek assurances on this.
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State writes that he accepts the importance of the issue and will publish a more detailed description of PHE’s role in research, including its relationship with academic institutions and other agencies. I am delighted that he is happy to involve me and, I hope, other noble Lords with the Chief Medical Officer in further discussions on this issue.
We have come a long way since Committee in designing a much more robust and satisfactory national board to undertake responsibilities for public health. Public health is sometimes seen as a side show in the maelstrom of issues that dominate the provision of NHS services but it contains the basic principle of social justice. It is to ensure that people have access to the essentials for a healthy and satisfying life, and nothing can be more important than that.
The Secretary of State has throughout sought to make public health centre stage, and I pay tribute to him for his commitment and determination, and thank him for listening to and acting on our suggestions. My noble friends Earl Howe and Lady Northover have been equally diligent and generous with their time in meeting our concerns. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and others would have preferred there to be a special health authority. I can understand their wish, but the flexibility that an executive agency gives us might be useful in the future. The Secretary of State has promised post-legislative scrutiny of the Bill, specifically to consider whether PHE would be better served by a different arrangement or a better organisational form. I welcome that.
I have quoted fully and, I suspect, rather boringly from the letter sent by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State because it is very unlikely that my amendment will be in the Bill. I therefore need a record of the changes that have been promised. I do not doubt for a moment that there is any intention to renege on these undertakings, but I know how easy it is for things to go astray. I am therefore anxious to get as much as I can into the pages of Hansard as a reference for the future. I very much look forward to hearing the views of other noble Lords and my noble friend’s reply. I beg to move.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I have put my name to the amendment and pay tribute to the hard work put in by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, on making progress in this area. It has occasionally seemed a little like trudging through the Somme mud, but we have made some progress. I share her view that we want to hear at length from the noble Earl about the assurances promised by the Secretary of State, particularly on the governance issue.
I want to raise in a little more detail the issues in paragraphs (b) and (c) of the amendment, regarding the ability of Public Health England to undertake and publish independent research and to bid for research funding from any source. This remains an unresolved issue. The dialogue is continuing in the Department of Health because in November a joint working party was set up between the Health Protection Agency, which is being abolished, and the department about the research activities of the new Public Health England. I remind noble Lords that this is particularly significant because at stake is the large sum of money that the HPA, as a non-departmental public body, raised for research, its own funding of research, as well as the scientific independence and excellence of its staff. There has been a great deal of concern that creating an executive agency with civil servants would make it difficult for that research quality and volume to be maintained in the new world.
Despite the Health Secretary’s assurances, concerns emanating from within the current agency remain around whether things have really been sewn up in terms of the ability of PHA, within the resources available to it, to control its destiny in the future and to go out to seek the research contracts that will enable it to meet the threats and concerns about public health that may have to be faced.
The nub of this issue comes down to a simple matter that I should like to leave with the noble Lord and on which I ask him to provide assurances. My understanding is that the problem at the moment is that the department has taken funds from the Health Protection Agency and Public Health England and made them available only for academic partnership research projects. The concern is that this might lead to Public Health England being prevented from carrying out research if that was not flavour of the month in academic institutions. There could be conflict between the concerns of academics to pursue partnership research and the real needs that the scientists within Public Health England consider to be in the public interest in terms of the research agenda to be followed. That is the main unresolved issue causing concern to the scientists within the Health Protection Agency staff who are soon-to-be-transmogrified into Public Health England.
The more assurances that the noble Earl can give the more they will satisfy not only the signatories to the amendment but the future employees of Public Health England who are to transfer as scientists to the new organisation.
Baroness Jolly
My Lords, I have put my name to the amendment. Historically, both parties to the coalition were in agreement that there were too many quangos and that rationalisation was required. This is always difficult when it involves an organisation as well respected as the Health Protection Agency and others.
Its successor organisation, Public Health England, was going to take over the HPA’s and have duties with regard to the new structure of public health at local government level. However, that had no place in the Bill. On these Benches, we welcomed the move to ground public health in local authorities, and we welcome the statements by the Minister about the role, responsibility and duty of this newfound position.
However, we were anxious about public health at a national level. We were not alone, and I pay huge tribute to my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, who took up this cause at Report stage—probably before then—along with the noble Lords, Lord Patel, Lord Turnberg and Lord Warner. The Secretary of State now sees PHE as carrying out his functions. I am grateful for the time that he gave to meet us to explain his point of view and listen. He felt that to make Public Health England an executive agency of the Department of Health would give it a degree of separation and flexibility. It was argued that PHE needed to have not only an independent chair but a board with a majority of non-executive directors if it were to have credibility with professionals and the public, and for the reputation clearly held by the HPA and others to be maintained in England and abroad. It would need to be able to raise funding to carry out its research on both English and worldwide issues. All this has been ably described by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and we should be grateful for some clarity from the Minister on the research activities proposed for the organisation. There is clearly intended to be a line of accountability from the Secretary of State through Public Health England to the directors of public health, and it would aid understanding all round if my noble friend could clarify Public Health England’s duties and accountabilities at local, community level with the directors of public health and local authorities. The line right the way down needs looking at.
I hope that the Minister will state that the Secretary of State is convinced that all of this is now a shared vision. However, as I stated earlier, none of this is stated in the Bill. My noble friend said that she will not push that, and I certainly will not, but I regret it, as it would be beneficial and make a really bold statement to the world outside that Public Health England is core to the Bill.
Can the Minister confirm the understanding of the Secretary of State’s letter and, perhaps, agree to the wording of the amendment?
Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, the Health Protection Agency is held in high esteem throughout the world. It does the most important work in protecting society from infections and epidemics. The National Blood Service can be the blood of life. It is vital. Can the Minister give an assurance that the HPA will not be downgraded in any way? I support Amendment 14 and hope that the Minister will accept it. If he does, that will give some assurance to some of the people who have concerns about the changes. With so many complicated conditions, research should not be restricted and funding for this must be free and seamless.
Will Public Health England work with other countries? Infections have no boundaries. One never knows what is around the corner. The work of the body should be as independent as possible. Otherwise, we will lose some of our brilliant researchers to countries which will give them more freedom.
Lord Turnberg
My Lords, I rise to speak briefly, because much of what I might have said has already been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. I, too, am very grateful for the way that the noble Earl has listened to us and spoken and written to us with helpful comments, which I hope that he will reiterate today. I just want to make one point about the research undertaken by the current HPA. It is directed predominantly to infectious disease and bacterial and viral infections. In that area, it is really world-beating. Recently, two of its members of staff have been elected fellows of the Academy of Medical Sciences, which is quite an achievement. The idea that it should do all this research in academic research partnerships with universities is unhelpful. Although collaboration and co-operation with university departments is enormously valuable, it should not be a precondition that it should be able to do research only in collaboration with universities. I hope that the noble Earl will be able to nail that problem.
Lord Patel
My Lords, I shall speak very briefly. I spoke at length in Committee and on Report and I shall not repeat what I said. Other noble Lords have referred to the key issues. If Public Health England is to be a strong, high-profile, public health national organisation, it needs strong governance. It also needs the independent ability to bid for research funds, as the HPA currently does, as has been highlighted, both nationally and internationally. At the Report stage, I referred to the fact that the HPA currently gets a significant amount of contract research income from NIH. It is no easy task to get money from NIH for research. If it is forbidden to do that, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said, is allowed to do research only with academic institutions, and not independently, that will be wrong. I hope that the noble Earl, who has listened to the arguments in the meetings we have had, will be able to alleviate those anxieties.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, on the enormous effort that she has put in to moving the Government’s position somewhat although, as she says, in the view of some of us, not quite far enough.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, referred to a degree of separation. I would rather that we had six degrees of separation; I think that we will probably have to settle for the current single degree of separation. That is slightly unfortunate, because, as other noble Lords have stressed, the question of independence of the organisation is crucial. In moving the amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, raised that issue and mentioned the Civil Service code and the possible inhibitions on employees of Public Health England and what was the Health Protection Agency in giving that advice independently and openly.
Bearing in mind the discussions that we had earlier this afternoon about the relationship between civil servants and Ministers, I hope that the noble Earl will address that, if not today in his reply then subsequently, to explain how that relationship will work and to confirm the complete independence of members of staff in advising not only Ministers but, as the noble Baroness said, the public. I reinforce the points made by other noble Lords. I think we got a verbal assurance from the Minister last time, but I would like it fully explained that the research capacity of the organisation will be maintained.
The amendment is slightly more modest than originally proposed by the noble Baroness, and even more modest than some of us would have liked. For the life of me, I cannot see why the noble Earl should not be able to accept it. If he is not prepared to do that, perhaps he will explain why. At the very least, I hope that he gives the assurances and undertakings that the noble Baroness has sought and that we can take forward this part of the Bill, which in turn complements the best part of the Bill, which relates to public health in general.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for the opportunity to return to this issue and for the extremely constructive and sincere manner in which she and other noble Lords have pursued it during and between previous debates in this House. My noble friend is anxious for Public Health England to be and to be seen to be a trusted and impartial champion for the protection of the health of the people and free to provide advice based firmly on the science and the evidence. So are we.
The Health Protection Agency has built an enviable international reputation that Public Health England must first live up to and then surpass. I take on board the question posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, about downgrading. No, of course we want to build on the HPA’s undoubted achievements and have Public Health England seen as a world leader. All the current activity undertaken by the Health Protection Agency will transfer to the Secretary of State.
With that in mind, we have listened very carefully to what my noble friend and others have had to say and thought long and hard. I am happy to set out to her fresh proposals to meet her concerns and to build on the undoubted successes of the Health Protection Agency and the other organisations that will evolve into the new organisation.
The Bill gives a new and vital duty to the Secretary of State, and only to the Secretary of State, to protect the health of the people of England. To a very large extent, Public Health England will exist in order to help him to discharge that duty. It is for that reason that we feel we must preserve a very direct and clear line of accountability between the chief executive and the Secretary of State. While Public Health England undoubtedly needs operational independence to be most effective—a point raised by a number of noble Lords—it will be essential for it and the Government to work together seamlessly and to share the same objectives. Anything less could severely limit the Secretary of State’s capacity to undertake his statutory duty.
Lord Turnberg
I am grateful to the noble Earl for giving way. Will this board be an advisory board or the board?
Earl Howe
I think that the noble Lord asked me whether the board will be an advisory board or a board. Its function will be to provide advice. It will be a board, but the Secretary of State and the chief executive of PHE will look to the board for that robust challenge and advice that a public health service needs.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough
I am grateful to my honourable friend—I am sorry, I mean my noble friend; I keep calling him honourable, but I am sure he is as well—for that response to the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg. The issue is really quite fundamental. If what my noble friend has described is a purely advisory board, the board will not therefore be able to take any executive decisions about the nature of the research that it carries out; that will be totally dependent on the Secretary of State passing it down. Is that so? If so, how in fact will it interface with, for example, the new European programme, programme 8, in terms of European-wide research on public health?
Earl Howe
No, my Lords, my noble friend is not correct. It will be able to take decisions. What it will not be able to do is to bind the Secretary of State because, ultimately, if there is an issue of public health importance, it is the Secretary of State who must take responsibility for that. This said, Public Health England will of course be its own master as regards the research that it undertakes, and it will be operationally independent, as I emphasised earlier.
We will ensure the chair’s direct access to Ministers through regular and ad hoc meetings. The chair will have its own section in PHE’s annual report which it will draft personally and independently, and that report will also reflect the views of external agencies and individuals who have dealings with PHE. I hope that that gives my noble friend additional assurance about the independent voice that we want to see and hear.
My noble friend Lady Cumberlege asked me whether PHE will be able to give professional advice freely to the public. We expect it to do precisely that, in much the same way that the Chief Medical Officer already does. It will be good practice for PHE and the department to consult each other about communications on public health matters, but with a view to agreeing the content, not censoring it.
PHE data will be subject to the code of practice on official statistics, which severely restricts access to certain material by Ministers or officials before it is published. Within three years of PHE becoming operational we will undertake a review of its governance to ensure that it is entirely appropriate and effective.
My noble friend’s amendment also addresses the very significant issue of PHE’s capability to undertake research and to bid for external research funding—a matter to which the noble Lord, Lord Warner, devoted particular attention. This is something we have touched on in previous debates, and it is clearly vital to PHE’s long-term success. We will publish more information about how PHE’s research function will work, including its relationship with academic institutions, but I can assure noble Lords that it will be able to exercise all the necessary powers and duties of the Secretary of State in relation to research.
In particular, Clause 6 confers on the Secretary of State a duty to promote research relevant to the health service, which embraces public health services. Clause 11 specifies that the conduct of research is an appropriate step for him to take under his health protection duty. Clause 50 provides that charges may be made in respect of such steps. Clause 17(13) confirms the Secretary of State’s power to conduct, commission or assist research relating to health, which includes the power to apply for grants or other funding for the purpose of such research. In addition to the Bill’s provisions, the Secretary of State has power to generate additional income for the health service under Section 7 of the Health and Medicines Act 1988, which can be used by PHE to provide research services under contract. I can therefore reassure my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that existing legislation gives the Secretary of State, and therefore PHE, the freedom to bid for research funding and to tender for contracts.
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked about external partnerships and whether agencies that currently fund the HPA research will be able to fund PHE in the future. The answer is that we are not aware of any insurmountable obstacle to any of the HPA’s current partners choosing to fund PHE, although in some instances PHE may need to collaborate with an academic institution. Of course, we cannot guarantee that they will choose to. All we can do is ensure that PHE remains at least as attractive a partner for health protection research as the HPA has been. I can also say to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, that we will publish more information on this question quite soon, but we have no reason to believe, as I say, that academic institutions will be reluctant to go into partnership with PHE. In fact, the National Institute for Health Research has already announced that it will invite joint bids.
My noble friend’s amendment and the powerful way in which she has argued for its objectives—
Lord Warner
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl. I waited patiently until he had been through the research arguments but I am still not clear. He said earlier that Public Health England would be master of its own destiny in terms of research. The point that I and, I think, my noble friend Lord Turnberg were making was that, if it comes to a tussle between PHE and the National Institute for Health Research over doing research which PHE considers to be in the public interest but there is no academic partner to undertake that research, will PHE’s mastery of its own research destiny trump the attempt by the National Institute for Health Research to impose partnership working on the research agenda? That is the issue that I was trying to talk about and which I think my noble friend was also talking about.
Earl Howe
My Lords, although I understand the noble Lord’s question, I do not think that I can answer it at the moment, and I am sorry to disappoint him. My advice is that we do not think that partnerships will be necessary in all or every case for Public Health England. Whether the NIHR can insist on trumping the operational independence of Public Health England is not a question that I can answer very readily. The main point is that research would not have to be jointly conducted. The Secretary of State has the power to carry it out on his own. That means that, if there were a tussle between two priorities, the Secretary of State could insist that a certain programme should be prioritised. I think that that is probably as far as I can go in answering the noble Lord at the moment.
My noble friend Lady Jolly asked me some general questions about lines of accountability. I hope that she will have gathered from my remarks today that Public Health England will be accountable directly to the Secretary of State in the first instance. Directors of public health will be joint appointments between local authorities and the Secretary of State, although they will be local authority employees and directly accountable to the authority chief executive. It goes without saying that close joint working between PHE and local authorities will be crucial.
My noble friend’s amendment and the powerful way that she has argued for its objectives are a tribute to her and to the noble Lords who have supported her. I believe that I have responded positively to each point that the amendment seeks to establish and that that response can be made comprehensively without amending the Bill. That remains our strong preference. I hope very much that my noble friend is sufficiently reassured by the commitments that I have made today to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, I have no intention of testing the opinion of the House this evening. We have negotiated long and hard with my noble friends Lady Northover and Lord Howe. It has been a very interesting experience. Those noble Lords who have supported me by putting their names to my amendments have tutored me well in the art of negotiation. It has occurred to me that clearly you can negotiate only if both parties are willing to participate, and in this instance that has been the case. The Secretary of State, my noble friend and noble Lords have been more than willing to meet us and to debate and discuss matters with us, putting forward some very strong assurances about the future of Public Health England.
I know that my noble friend Lady Jolly wanted the amendment to be made to the Bill and for those words to be included in the Bill so that the constituency in the country—all the public health people involved—would see what we are trying to achieve. I knew some time ago that that would not be possible, and we have had a very full debate today, albeit at Third Reading, because we are very anxious to get all those assurances articulated and recorded in Hansard.
We will be keeping a very close eye on the development of Public Health England and I shall be framing the assurances that I have been given today. I shall have them on my wall and, when there are new Secretaries of State, I shall present them with this framed undertaking so that we can absolutely ensure that Public Health England goes from strength to strength and, as my noble friend said, is a world leader and, I hope, a world beater. We have a very good reputation in the world on public health. It is something that we must retain and improve upon, ensuring that we have a healthier nation for the future. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
(ca) a complaint to the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales which relates to a Welsh health body;”
““Welsh health body” means—
(a) a Local Health Board,(b) an NHS trust managing a hospital or other establishment or facility in Wales,(c) a Special Health Authority not discharging functions only or mainly in England,(d) an independent provider in Wales (within the meaning of the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Act 2005),(e) a family health service provider in Wales (within the meaning of that Act), or(f) a person with functions conferred under section 113(2) of the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Act 2003.”
Baroness Emerton
“Power to register health care support workers in England
(1) Health care support workers in England may enter a voluntary register assured by the Council for Health Care Regulatory Excellence, provided they have attended an assured training programme prior to entry on the register.
(2) The assured training programme shall be mandatory for all new health care support workers from 1 April 2013.
(3) The Secretary of State shall develop a Code of Conduct for all employees (whether or not entered on the register) who are providing care to NHS patients (including employees of local authorities) who are seeking to develop the necessary competencies for health care support work.
(4) The Secretary of State shall review the procedures for training under this section, and its benefits or otherwise, within three years of this Act receiving Royal Assent.”
Baroness Emerton
My Lords, the amendment concerns the power to register healthcare support workers in England. I shall try to be brief, as we had a long and thorough debate on this matter on Report and I have studied the Minister’s response to my amendment at that stage. I have had protracted discussions between Report and now with the noble Earl and officials, and I thank them most sincerely for the time and effort they have put into trying to meet my requests.
Healthcare support workers form a very large part of the workforce, whether they are in the employment of NHS hospitals, community services or local authority services, providing care in people’s homes, or in the large number of nursing and residential care homes. We should not forget the role played by social workers, which often overlaps with the role of healthcare support workers, and vice versa.
Many noble Lords have said in previous debates that large numbers of support workers provide high-quality care, and they have received some training in order to do that. It is not likely that this large number of support workers will decrease with a growth in demand from the rapidly expanding number of elderly, frail and vulnerable people who require high-quality care. However, it is also not possible to expect a magic wand—that is, the Government—to provide training overnight for everybody at once. Therefore, it is reasonable to find a way forward that provides a direction of travel that satisfies patients, the public, the professions and employers that the issue is being addressed as a matter of urgency within the economic situation in which we find ourselves.
I shall briefly address each item covered by the amendment. The Minister has indicated that Skills for Care and Skills for Health will be producing an assured training programme, prepared with professional inputs, that will, following consultation, be available for implementation in 2013. This will entitle successful candidates to be entered on the voluntary register if they so wish.
I am aware, and pleased, that the Minister has also agreed that work should proceed on reviewing the research on ratios of registered to unregistered personnel, and that the supervision of work delegated to registrants is vital. However, realistically, in some communities and hospital situations it is not possible for there to be close scrutiny of support workers’ performance. The recent report published by Which? clearly demonstrates neglect in the delivery of care to patients and in their safety. Clearly, the Government need a means of early identification of the failings in the delivery of care.
While the training programmes are being developed, perhaps we could ask, through the Minister, that registered nurses and midwives are reminded of their responsibility and accountability, that they have to assure themselves of the competences of individual support workers before delegating a task, and that, once a task has been delegated, it must be supervised. Where that proves impossible because of insufficient registered nurses and midwives, immediate action should be taken by a registered nurse to report to his or her manager and the employers should take action on the level of care that can be delivered in that situation. That will safeguard the safety and quality of care to patients.
I now turn to the second subsection of the proposed new clause. It is recommended that the next logical step would be to aim for the training of support workers to be mandatory. So far discussions on making the training of healthcare support workers mandatory has not found favour with Her Majesty’s Government. Many Peers indicated, on Report, the importance of all healthcare support workers receiving mandatory training and that it should be regulated. Although it is recognised that that could not be arrived at tomorrow, if Her Majesty’s Government could agree that the training programmes will be mandatory at a date to be determined for implementation, I am sure that the patients, the public and certainly the professions of nursing, midwifery and social care would be satisfied.
Subsection (3) of the proposed new clause requires the Secretary of State to develop a code of conduct for all employees whether they are entered on the register or just providing care. That includes the employees not just in the NHS hospitals but also in local authorities. That would provide clear guidance for employers as well as employees and should assist in ensuring that competences, where lacking, are made good by training modules or by withdrawing the person who does not have the skills or the competences. Without such controls of clearly defined competences being included for practising healthcare support workers and the correct delegation and supervision by registrants, it will be impossible to ensure the high-quality, safe, compassionate care that patients and clients deserve or indeed Her Majesty’s Government aim to provide. I hope that the Minister will feel able to provide a positive response to this request.
Subsection (4) requires Her Majesty’s Government to carry out a strategic review within three years, as the Minister undertook to do on Report, about whether statutory regulation of support workers is necessary in the light of progress with the proposed training programmes and the introduction of the voluntary register. Perhaps I may suggest that the review of the research on improving the ratios of registered nurses and midwives is also included in this review so that a holistic view can be gained of the future shape of the workforce required to deliver high-quality, safe and compassionate care, with the result of improved clinical outcomes that are cost-effective and of cost benefit. I beg to move.
Lord Patel
My Lords, on Report, I spoke strongly in support of the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Emerton. I thank the Minister for the many conversations that he has had with my noble friend and myself to try to resolve some of the issues. Like the noble Baroness, I am most appreciative of his readiness to meet and speak with us on many occasions.
We have about 450,000 healthcare support workers and some have had some training and therefore perform the tasks that they are given with fairly good competency. Others do not have any training and they might perform the tasks that they are given at variable levels. We also heard on Report from the noble Lord, Lord MacKenzie, and my noble friend Lady Emerton about the kind of tasks that healthcare support workers currently carry out. They range from simple nursing care or bathing or feeding duties to cannulisation and bladder catheterisation and even more invasive procedures than that. That should confirm to us that there is a need for some kind of standardised training programme that healthcare support workers must undertake so that their competences are assessed and so that they work to those competences. It is not fair that those healthcare support workers who have had some training and are competent to perform their duties have to work alongside others who have not had any training and, therefore, are lacking in competences.
On Report, one of the many things that the Minister agreed to take forward in relation to healthcare support workers, if I quote him correctly, was to try to establish assured voluntary registration, which the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence will run. If we are to have any kind of register, surely ipso facto certain conditions must be satisfied before someone can go on to the register. Logically, that would suggest to me that there must be some form of training. If that is the case, why would we object to having training as a requirement for all new healthcare support workers? I well understand that it is not impossible, but very difficult and expensive, to try to train some 450,000 people who already carry out such tasks. That could be overcome by having a code of conduct imposed on employers; it would be their duty to ensure that whoever they employ has the competencies to do the tasks that they are asked to undertake. It would not be vastly expensive to get 450,000 people trained. Subsection (2) of the proposed new clause refers to “mandatory” training—I use the word “requirement”—for all new healthcare support workers from April 2003 before they go on the assured voluntary register.
I take a slightly different view about whether the register is voluntary or statutory. I know that the word “statutory” to all healthcare workers is important. I am registered by statute to be on the medical register but it is more important that the register has some meaning and that it works. If a voluntary register does not work, it is no good; if a statutory register does not work, it is no good. It is important that people who go on the register are trained and assessed as having those competences. Subsection (4) of the proposed new clause, to which the Minister agreed previously, requires that a review will be carried out for the benefit or otherwise of any kind of register that is established. I hope he will agree to that. I hope that the Minister will be able today to reassure my noble friend Lady Emerton.
I have been very touched by what my noble friend has said in the many conversations that she has had with me. To me, she typifies the attitude of a very caring nurse who is concerned about the poor quality of care seen in daily reports in newspapers; there was also a report yesterday from Which?, to which she alluded. That clearly affects her as a professional nurse. Therefore, I strongly support her amendment.
Lord MacKenzie of Culkein
My Lords, as a nurse I am always delighted to support the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, and I particularly support this amendment.
I had hoped that the House might have agreed the need for statutory regulation and registration for healthcare support workers, but the Government should at least accept this amendment. It provides for a code of conduct, for mandatory training, which must be to an agreed standard, and for a requirement to have undertaken an assured training programme before one can enter the voluntary registers that are to be set up. These things should all be in the Bill; they are necessary to protect the patient and the public.
Training, in my view, has to be mandatory; it cannot be left to the whims of employers to decide how much or how little training to give to healthcare support workers. I know from nurses, including my step-daughter, who is a registered nurse, that some of that training is good, some of it is patchy and some of it is shockingly poor. Some of it is supernumerary today, on the team tomorrow; see a procedure today, carry out that procedure tomorrow. That old system of training has no place in the modern delivery of nursing care, but it is what many healthcare support workers have delegated to them.
The Minister knows my views about voluntary registers, but I have no wish to see them fail. If they are to succeed, every effort must be made to ensure that those who are eligible get on to these registers. He will correct me if my memory is playing tricks on me, but I seem to recall him saying at an earlier stage that employers could require someone to be on a voluntary register before appointment or promotion. I have no quarrel with that if we are properly to protect the public, but I want to know whether an employer can do that. If, say, there are two candidates for promotion with very similar training and experience on their CVs, but one is on the voluntary register and one is not, will the employer be able to refuse to see the person who is not on the voluntary register? I wonder what an employment tribunal might make of that.
I hope we can have an assurance that employers will be able to discriminate in this way, because I am concerned that everyone who should be on the register is on it. We know that rogues and rascals and those who are less than suitable are the ones who are not likely to want to be on a voluntary register, which is why I prefer the other course. However, we are where we are and I hope that the Minister can at least reassure us on this point.
Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, I have my name to the amendment. During the passage of this Bill, some of us have been trying very hard to improve the care of vulnerable patients in hospital and in the community. I felt healthcare support workers should be registered and regulated, as many vulnerable patients, being frail and elderly or disabled in many diverse ways, have to rely on their carers. Your Lordships have heard that patients have been put at risk or died through neglect or assault in care homes and hospitals up and down the country. Many people wait in anticipation for the result of the review of the Mid Staffordshire Foundation Trust. This must not be covered up; lessons should be learnt in memory of the hundreds of patients who received poor care, were neglected and died. Surely it is our duty to try to help rectify this deplorable situation.
I have every admiration for the Minister, who has worked tirelessly over this Bill, but I do not agree with him that nurses who have been struck off their register can go back to caring for patients as unregistered healthcare assistants. We are exposing the most vulnerable in our society to greater risks and poorer care if we do nothing to prevent struck-off nurses continuing to work in a caring profession. This amendment is a compromise, but even so it has a very important part. Subsection (2) of the proposed new clause in the amendment states:
“The assured training programme shall be mandatory for all new health care support workers from 1 April 2013”.
Not to train people who care for vulnerable patients is deplorable. Last year I was involved in a case of a person living at home and using a respirator. The patient was left brain damaged when the agency nurse turned off the wrong switch. Adequate, appropriate training should be given; in that case, it was a health care worker who was also a nurse.
Many disabled people are living in the community, which is good, but many of them use technical equipment that needs training and understanding, such as hoists, pressure mattresses, peg feeds, catheters, complicated electric wheelchairs, ventilators, nebulisers, diabetic management, colostomies, adapted vehicles and many other complicated devices. An assured training programme should include where to place a patient’s food and drink and to assess whether the patient can feed themselves. If not, the healthcare worker should know how to do this; how to wash and bathe and deal with personal needs such as toileting; how to prevent pressure ulcers; moving and handling; and complications with patients who have problems and may be difficult and have a problem communicating. There are many needs, but kindness and common sense should prevail.
If the Minister and the Government do not agree with this amendment, it will mean they do not understand the needs of vulnerable patients’ care. If training is mandatory, I am sure employers will take notice.
Lord Cotter
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, for introducing this amendment, which I hope the Minister will agree gives an opportunity for a very important issue to be aired. Many noble Lords have aired it in the past; indeed, I raised it on the very first day of the Bill. It is an area that remains of concern, and I have been pleased to hear from the Ministers that they are well aware of this. I recollect at the beginning of the Bill speaking to a nurse who, with an air of concern in her voice, said that when she asked assistants to carry out work the responsibility remained with her if that work was not carried out correctly. I welcome this opportunity for the Minister I hope to give a very strong response to indicate the Bill will cover this issue. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, said, we are talking about 450,000 healthcare assistants: many people of varying abilities and knowledge.
I will say no more except to thank the noble Baroness for her amendment and, in anticipation, to thank the Minister for his response, which I hope will be robust and clear as to what we are going to do to address this concern.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My noble friend Lady Emerton, in tabling this amendment, has come up with something very sophisticated and really rather clever. By requiring education, she will ensure that the next group has its standards driven up. People enter into a caring group and learn from others around them; the problem is that at the moment they are learning bad practice as well as, hopefully, learning good practice.
Making sure that these are assured training programmes is eminently sensible. Modern educational techniques using e-learning, DVDs and other ways of training mean that you do not have to take people away from the job and put them in college. They could be given provisional registration while they worked through some of these training programmes. Modern ways of teaching also allow you to train those with very low literacy skills. It is worth remembering that some of the very high-standard care assistants in the system providing care in people’s homes often have low levels of literacy, so they need to be taught using modern techniques. This will allow that to happen. As for tracking their attendance, with electronic records it becomes quite easy to monitor what they turned up for and how they performed and to assess them in the tasks that need to be undertaken.
This amendment seems to meet all the criticisms that the Government laid at the door of previous amendments. I hope that it will get a better reception than its predecessors.
Baroness Cumberlege
As a fellow of the Royal College of Nursing and the Royal College of Midwives, I very much regret that I have been unable to take part in the previous debates initiated by the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton. I regret that for many reasons, not least because I had the privilege of introducing the noble Baroness into your Lordships’ House, and what a good thing that was. The noble Baroness is a truly remarkable person. I am not at all surprised that she has crafted this very clever amendment, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, recognises that statutory regulation will not always prevent abuse. Indeed, the chief executive of the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence told your Lordships at a seminar that the regulator is never in the room when abuse occurs.
I understand that the noble Baroness is calling not for regulation but for a voluntary register assured by the CHRE. People will get admittance to the register provided they have attended an assured training programme. The training programme is to be mandatory for all new healthcare support workers from 1 April 2013. I understand that that is where the Government have something of a problem because of the numbers and costs involved, as the noble Lord, Lord Patel, said.
However, is it not right that good employers should pay the registration fee and have some element of discrimination in deciding who they recruit to a job? The question asked by the noble Lord, Lord MacKenzie, was very apt. My noble friend’s answer to it will be very interesting. If individual support workers have to pay the registration fee themselves, it could be seen as a tax on work for people mostly on the minimum wage, and there is an issue about that. It will probably increase the cost of employment, and this is a market in which retail, part-time working and motherhood compete, so we have to be careful.
On Report, the noble Lords, Lord Turnberg and Lord MacKenzie of Culkein, referred to the history of state enrolled nurses. Unlike registered nurses, they were said to be used and abused. I remember that because I served with the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, on the United Kingdom Central Council for Nursing, Midwifery and Health Visiting where, over time, we phased out state enrolled nurses. They have been replaced to some extent by healthcare support workers, and we are facing almost the same issues again.
In the previous debate, my noble friend Lord Newton and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, were very kind to mention my role in nurse prescribing. I am delighted to see the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, in her place. I remember the day when we rejoiced in the fact that nurse prescribing had gone another step on the way. It took me 26 years to get that to happen—a very long time indeed—and we are not quite there yet. It seemed to me that nurse prescribing was extremely obvious. In the light of today’s debate on risk and risk registers, it probably would have been seen as a very high risk, but it has not proved to be so—but we are not there yet. I am very much hoping that, with the help of my noble friend Lord Henley and the Home Office, the last piece of this jigsaw will be put into place.
We started very small with nurse prescribing. We started with Bolton. The whole of Bolton took on nurse prescribing. In some parts of the country, the fight was enormous. GPs saw prescribing as their territory, and they did not want nurses to step into it. We managed to achieve it, and one of my real worries is that if we have support workers who, as the noble Baroness told us in the previous debate, are administering some very serious drugs, the work that I have done will be diminished because people will then think that nurse prescribing can be done by anybody with sufficient training, and that is dangerous. It is wrong for patients, and it is wrong for support workers who have perhaps been told that they have to administer these drugs.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the noble Baronesses, Lady Cumberlege and Lady Emerton, and other noble Lords who have spoken have argued pretty persuasively for statutory regulation. I think it is a pity that the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, did not put her amendment to the vote on Report because there is a great deal of support in this House and outside it for statutory regulation. I do not know whether the Minister will accept this amendment, but if the noble Baroness wishes to put it to the vote, we shall support it.
If we look at the first part of the amendment, as I understand it the Minister gave an assurance on Report that the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence would provide some assurance to voluntary registers. If the council is prepared to undertake the work to provide some assurance for voluntary registers, I cannot see why it could not have done that for statutory regulation. I have yet to hear one argument by that body or anyone else about why there should not be statutory regulation on this.
I note that the assured training programme is to be mandatory. It is all very well to say that it is mandatory to attend a training programme, but I would rather like to hear that someone has passed some kind of examination and achieved a qualification rather than that they merely turned up and got ticked in—although we know about being ticked in in your Lordships’ House.
On proposed new subsection (3) in the amendment, my reading is that this will not cover nursing homes. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, expressed concern that a nurse may be struck off the register of qualified nurses but turn up at a nursing home the next day. However, my reading of this subsection is that it relates only to the care of NHS patients. Clearly, there are large parts of the care market to which this does not apply, and the most vulnerable part of care is healthcare assistants working in the independent sector without much supervision.
On proposed subsection (4), the disappointment is that the noble Earl said that the Government would agree to review this after, I think, three years. That would take us to 2015. We know that it would take two or three years to establish statutory regulation, so we are talking about five or six years from now, according to this amendment, when we would achieve statutory regulation. I am sure that that is the journey that we are on; I am disappointed that it will take so long to get there.
Earl Howe
My Lords, we have already had considerable debate on standards and training for healthcare support workers at both Committee and Report stages and I have set out the Government’s view that compulsory statutory regulation is not the only way to achieve high quality care.
We have made it clear that we recognise the need to drive up standards for support workers and to facilitate employers to appropriately employ, delegate to, and supervise health and social care support workers. We have listened to the concerns raised in this House and we have already taken action in a number of areas. We have recognised the concerns about the need for common standards for all those delivering personal care. I believe the steps we are taking will help increasingly to professionalise this set of workers, and ensure that healthcare support workers strive to achieve the best standards of skills to enable them to do their work more effectively.
We have therefore commissioned Skills for Health and Skills for Care to work together to develop a code of conduct and minimum induction and training standards for those support workers working in support of nurses and for adult social care workers. We fully expect this code to make crystal clear the primacy of patient safety, and how support workers must flag concerns to their supervisors. It would also be relevant both to employees and to employers. These will be developed by September 2012, with a view to enabling them to be adopted as the standards for an assured voluntary register from 2013 onwards. They will, for the first time, set a clear national benchmark around the training and conduct of support workers.
In taking that work forward, we expect Skills for Health and Skills for Care to engage with nursing professionals, including educationalists, and the standards will link to the Nursing and Midwifery Council’s updated guidance on delegation. We have also said that we will ensure that the delivery of training for healthcare assistants who are entitled to be included on a voluntary register is professionally led. Further, we remain committed to exploring the evidence base relating to ratios of qualified to non-qualified staff, and we will look carefully at the evidence from ongoing work by King’s College.
Our proposals stop short of imposing mandatory requirements on employers, as it is our view that assured voluntary registration, underpinned by the Care Quality Commission’s registration requirements, is likely to be adequate to assure standards. However, we recognise that there are concerns that voluntary registration may not be adequate and therefore, once a system of assured voluntary registration has been operational for three years, we will commission a strategic review of the relative benefits of assured voluntary registration, compared with statutory registration.
The noble Lord, Lord MacKenzie, asked me whether employers would be able to require workers to be on registers. The answer is most certainly, yes. There are already precedents where employers require, for example, clinical perfusionists or non-medical public health specialists to be on voluntary registers, so we do not see this as a problem.
Turning specifically to the purpose of the amendment, to require mandatory assured training for all new healthcare support workers by 2013, I view that as a big-bang approach—if I may put it in those terms—and I have considerable anxiety that it carries a real risk of overwhelming the system in terms of allowing time for an assured training programme to be developed and implemented. Furthermore, I need to bring to the House’s attention that the introduction of mandatory training would have a significant cost impact on employers across a short period.
The department commissioned an independent analysis of the costs and benefits of regulating around 250,000 domiciliary care workers in 2009. This work indicated that, with a requirement that all workers would have to achieve an NVQ level 2 over two years, or have made good progress towards doing so, the costs would be in the region of £435 million over 10 years. The costs of registration, which would have been met by workers, were only around £70 million over 10 years, with the remaining £360 million or so primarily relating to the costs of providing training, which would primarily have fallen to employers.
Therefore, there are good reasons why we cannot just commit to introducing mandatory training in the current difficult public spending environment, without a clear evidence base for doing so. However, that is where the review comes in. I can confirm that we will consider whether there is a case for mandating training as part of that review, and an appropriate timetable if it were to be introduced.
Allowing for a three-year period once such voluntary registers have been quality-assured by the Professional Standards Authority for Health and Social Care is important. The size and complexity of the workforce we are discussing has already been recognised in our earlier debates. Therefore, in order to ensure that the review is fair and evidence-based, we need to allow an appropriate time period for the assured registers to operate and three years from Royal Assent may not allow sufficient time, for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, alluded to, given that it may take some time to get to a point where a register is properly established.
The scope of this amendment is only healthcare support workers, and I understand the reasons why the noble Baroness has raised it in such limited terms. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland, recognised in our last debate on this matter, the care workforce is significantly wider than that of healthcare support workers. Our proposals recognise this and include provision for common core training and a common basis for a code of conduct.
I know the noble Baroness would like us to go further. However, the review to which I have already committed will provide us with a clear evidence base for any further measures needed to assure the standards of healthcare support workers and we will then consider the need for further measures in light of that review. In view of the proposed review and the ongoing role of the Professional Standards Authority in monitoring voluntary registers, I do not see the need to go any further in terms of rolling out the programme with pilots or some such, but we are more than willing to maintain a dialogue with noble Lords and the profession on what is clearly an important issue.
I also listened to the noble Baroness’s point about the importance of staffing ratios, particularly with regard to midwives, and I can confirm that we will keep these issues under close consideration.
I hope the noble Baroness will be at least partially reassured—maybe substantially reassured—about the general direction of travel here and of our commitment to strengthening the assurance processes in place for healthcare support workers and that, as a consequence, she will feel able to withdraw her amendment at this point.
Baroness Emerton
I thank the noble Earl for that summary, and I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate.
It seems as though we have been discussing this very real issue for months. We have spent the afternoon talking about risks and my concern has always been that the result of not providing training and support to support workers is a risk to patient care— and we will be taking a real risk if we have to wait the length of time proposed by the Minister. Work is going on at the moment in preparing the voluntary register, which will be ready in 2012, and I would have thought it would have been possible for the Government to say that from thereon they would expect candidates who are taken on to enter that training.
The public, patients and professions need an assurance that the risk at which we are placing patients is being addressed. The Minister has set out a timetable, but it is a very long timetable for patients who are receiving care today and tomorrow. They are at risk unless there is a registered nurse who is able to assess the competencies and support workers who are competent to deliver.
I appreciate what the noble Earl has said and the situation that we are in—I said in my speech that we have to be aware of the economic situation—and that we have to be assured that whatever we do is of benefit to patients and is cost-effective. However, I am not sure that we will be doing that by accepting the proposed timetable and I would like to test the opinion of the House.
“(4) In subsection (4)—
(a) for “a Primary Care Trust” substitute “a clinical commissioning group”, (b) for “the trust” substitute “the group”, and(c) at the end insert “; and the references in this subsection to a clinical commissioning group are, so far as necessary for the purposes of regulations under subsection (2E) of that section, to be read as references to the Board.”.”
“(2) In subsections (6A) and (6B)—
(a) after “by a” insert “clinical commissioning group or”, and(b) omit “Primary Care Trust or”.(3) After subsection (6B), insert—
“(6C) The references in subsections (6A) and (6B) to a clinical commissioning group are, so far as necessary for the purposes of regulations under section 117(2E) of the Mental Health Act 1983, to be read as references to the National Health Service Commissioning Board.””
Lord Dubs
My Lords, I shall speak very briefly as the House wants to move to a vote. I support this amendment and would like to pay a tribute to my noble friend Lady Thornton for the work that she and her team have put into this. Without the backing of a government department, they have performed heroically and very effectively.
I want to give only one personal reminiscence. The National Health Service started on 5 July 1948. I was a child in hospital on that today; I was quite ill in Stockport Royal Infirmary. The consultant and his team came; in those days one either had to stand to attention or lie to attention when the consultant came with the matron and the team of junior doctors. Momentarily, he stopped at the foot of my bed and I said, “Are we going to celebrate? Are we having a party?”. He asked, “What are you talking about”? I was the only child in the ward, so it was cheeky of me but I said, “Well, the hospital is ours today—isn’t it wonderful?”. He walked on without saying anything, but it was a momentous day and I never thought that, 64 years later, I would be here at Westminster and lamenting what has happened to our beloved National Health Service. Let me conclude by quoting Nye Bevan, who said,
“The NHS will last as long as there are folk … with the faith to fight for it”.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, it is with a very heavy heart that I feel I must stand up and record that many of the voices outside, who are very scared about this Bill and what it means, are people who are of no particular political persuasion. Yet they are worried about the problem of lack of financial transparency, about the number of private healthcare companies incorporated in offshore jurisdictions—which they see may evade taxes of various types—and about the commissioning process. They are also concerned that the use of public money in the healthcare system will slowly be obscured like a great iceberg wrapped in fog. They will work to deliver whatever is needed for the patients in front of them. The vast majority of them stand to gain nothing by this Bill passing, but to gain nothing either if it does not pass. They want to improve the standards for their patients, and indeed they argue for change.
The noble Earl has worked tirelessly and has confidence across the whole House. Everybody, however much they have been concerned about this Bill, owes him an enormous debt of gratitude for the way that he has listened to every single one of us, at all times of the day and night, and weekends and so on. But we should not let this Bill pass without recognising the enormous concerns there are outside this House among those who will be delivering healthcare, now and into the future, in whatever form it takes.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, this has been an extraordinary parliamentary process. When this Bill was introduced, I said at Second Reading that it was a bad Bill. It was a bad Bill when it came here; there has been a growing tide of opposition to it and concern throughout the process while it was in the Commons and the Lords. There was the pause in the Commons and the Future Forum, which resulted in a large number of changes, and at that time Nick Clegg said that no Bill is better than a bad Bill. What we all individually have to do now—I speak very much for myself and not my party—is to assess whether it has now moved over from being a bad Bill to perhaps being, as Nick Clegg said last week, a much better Bill.
There is no doubt at all that on a spectrum of bad to good, it has shifted very considerably. It shifted in the Commons; it shifted far more here in the House of Lords. I believe that the process in your Lordships’ House has been the House of Lords at its best. This House can be proud of the work that it has done throughout the gruelling Committee stage, then during Report and again today. I regret that I could not take a detailed part in much of that, because I was then spending time as a patient of the NHS, but I have been watching it all and I believe that the work this House has done has been absolutely superb.
If I can make a party political point here for a moment, the work that our team has done on the Bill, led by my noble friend Lady Jolly with all my other noble friends who have taken part, has contributed well. I refer not only to the Liberal Democrats but to Cross Benchers and everybody around the House. Tribute has been paid to the Minister. I pay particular tribute as a Liberal Democrat to our person on the ministerial team, my noble friend Lady Northover, who from our point of view has played a very important part by being a link into the Government and getting many of the changes which have taken place.
It is about not just the changes to the Bill but the implementation—the work that starts after this Bill has been passed, as no doubt it will be today. A huge number of ministerial assurances have been made, which may or may not be put upon people’s bedroom walls as the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, wants to do with hers. Nevertheless, this is a Bill which has had more outside scrutiny and involvement from people out there, as far as the House of Lords is concerned, than any other Bill I can remember in 12 years in your Lordships’ House. That will continue with the implementation, and it is absolutely crucial how the Government now implement this Bill. Will it be gung-ho privatisation, which is what people were very frightened of when the Bill was first introduced and many are still frightened about, or will it be implemented in a cautious and careful way to allow the health service to breathe and to cope with the changes? This will be absolutely crucial, and we will know the answer to that in a year or two’s time.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, said that we have had debates of unparalleled length and scope, and that is true. However, as I have just said, the public interest and lobbying on this from outside has been unprecedented. One of the lessons that we all have to learn is that we—whether the House of Lords, members of the Government or our party—have not coped with that very well. I do not think that the Opposition coped with it terribly well either because, even this morning, I was getting e-mails telling me what the Bill did, some of which was absolutely untrue. They were still telling me that the Bill removes the duty on the Secretary of State to provide health services. We are still getting that, and the amount of education or information which goes out from debates within this Chamber to the outside world is pretty poor.
Several people have said, “We have been trying to follow this Bill. We have been trying to follow your Marshalled Lists, having discovered where to find them on the internet. We have been trying to follow the parliament channel, and we haven’t understood a word of it. It is interesting, but we can’t understand it”. I have to tell them that that applies to quite a lot of Members of your Lordships’ House while the Bill is going through.
Lord Winston
Could the noble Lord tell us whether he intends to vote for or against the amendment?
Lord Greaves
I am coming to that. So having said all this, why am I going to vote for the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton? I will do so very unhappily because I do not like voting against my noble friends, particularly when they have done so much hard work and achieved so much. I do not like voting against the party anyway but, having looked at it, it seems to me that the safeguards which have been achieved are not sufficient. Having read the latest version of the Bill which we got at Third Reading, I think it is inevitable that this Bill will lead to greater commercialisation. It will lead to a greater emphasis on competition rather than integration, and to a continuing incursion of private sector-based companies into the provision of NHS services. It is undoubtedly a radical top-down restructuring, in direct contradiction of the coalition agreement that I signed up to. That is being imposed on the health service at the same time as it is struggling with the biggest financial problems that it has had for many years. This is all in the face of the overwhelming opposition of NHS staff, professional groups, patient groups, public opinion and, indeed, a majority of people in my own party and of people who vote for us.
I believe that the new structures at local level will be no less bureaucratic, less open and accountable—
Lord Greaves
I am just saying what I think, and I have a right to do that. I believe that my party is being extremely brave in supporting this Bill as it now exists. I also believe that my party has had a bit too much of being extremely brave in recent times, but nevertheless, it is. I voted against this Bill at Second Reading; I will do so again now in favour of this amendment.
Now I feel very much like little Johnny, marching along, and all the rest of my party are out of step. I think that I am in step, and I think very hard indeed about this. Your Lordships’ House as a whole, and the Government, are the people out of step—certainly out of step with opinion in the country and in the health service. However, I agree entirely with what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, about what now matters if the Bill is passed—[Interruption.] I do not know whose phone that is; it is not mine. That is someone who is out of step.
There has been a lot of alarmist talk. It probably will not amount to much, but it is up to everyone in the health service, and to us here as we scrutinise the regulations, to ensure that it does not. I am frightened by this Bill and I shall vote against it.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I have not yet spoken on this Bill. Could I ask the Minister a very practical question? If the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is passed, what on earth will happen to this Bill? What I understand might happen is that in due course it would be passed by the Commons but without the amendments of this House. The result of that would mean that the enormous amount of work done by everybody in this House to improve this Bill would be totally lost, and the Bill as it left the Commons would be the same Bill that went through it. Is that what we want?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, made some very complimentary comments about me at the beginning of her remarks and I thank her for those. Therefore, it is a cause for sadness to me that we have reached this final stage of the Bill in a climate of antagonism rather than of the mutual good will that typically characterises the end of a long parliamentary process in this House. That good will is still present, but it has perhaps been temporarily overshadowed.
I am sorry that the noble Baroness, for whom I have enormous respect, has taken the unusual step of tabling this Motion. It will not surprise her to hear that I disagree utterly with her summary of what this Bill will achieve, but it is not my intention to rehearse the arguments for it all over again. I did that at Second Reading and throughout subsequent stages of the Bill, when we debated at length and in depth the detailed provisions within it.
It is disappointing, too, that this Motion, so negative in its tone and content, is the only amendment which the Official Opposition have seen fit to table on our final day of debate. It stands in marked contrast to the highly constructive approach taken to Third Reading by Peers on all Benches, and indeed to the approach of thoughtful testing and challenge to the Government which the Labour Front Bench has adopted hitherto. I believe that we have used today’s Third Reading to good and positive effect. The noble Baroness, on the other hand, has chosen today to stand aside from that approach.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, the time has come for a vote on this matter. I add my own thanks to all noble Lords for the work that they have done on the Bill. I pay tribute to the huge efforts that have been made and the commitment that noble Lords show to doing their job as legislators. I thank my own support on the Front Bench, my noble friends Lord Hunt, Lord Beecham, Lord Collins and Lady Wheeler. I could not have been better supported.
Unlike the Minister with a cast of thousands, I have had a small but perfectly formed team of about three, led by Jessica Levy in the opposition office and with my intern Tom Woodford keeping my papers in good order. However, we on these Benches have also been supported and sustained in our consideration of the Bill by literally thousands of people across the country. I say to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, that it is actually up to the Government what they do about the Bill if they lose this vote.
Perhaps the Minister might agree that this parallel universe that we inhabit in your Lordships’ House, where deals are done and amendments are crafted, is hardly the same as the real world for those who will now manage commissioning, make budget cuts, deploy staff, recruit accountants and try to make sense of the competition and integration strategies and to make the Bill work. I pay tribute to those people.
I feel like saying to noble Lords, “Hands up those who have received letters and e-mails supporting this Bill”. I had two, among a torrent of e-mails, tweets, texts and letters asking us to drop the Bill or dramatically change parts of it. We have received thousands of expressions of concern. Noble Lords have reacted variously to that, and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is right to say that in some respects parties have reacted well to this but not in others. It is clear that there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people watching us and what we do, and it is for those people—the nurses, the doctors, the healthcare assistants, the patients, my mum with her COPD, my cousin whose daughter has just been diagnosed with a brain tumour, and the hundreds of thousands of people who have signed petitions, sent letters, gone on demonstrations and continue to make our beloved NHS work—that I wish to test the opinion of the House.
International Development: Sanitation and Water
The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to enhance access to proper sanitation and safe water in developing countries.
The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells
My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to open this debate, and I thank noble Lords who are willing to take part after what has been a full day.
There will no doubt be some amusement that a contribution such as this is being made by the Bishop of Bath and Wells—the name involves two receptacles intimately associated with water. However, I am not the first holder of this office to be so concerned. Bishop Bekynton is remembered and commemorated for his contribution to the health and welfare of the citizens of Wells during the 15th century. Bekynton made a grant to construct the conduit by which the city would receive its water supply from the Well of St. Andrew in the grounds of the bishop’s palace. However, the condition upon which such benefaction was made was that the citizens and burgesses bound themselves in return to visit once every year the spot in the cathedral where Bekynton was to be interred and there pray for his soul, for which the same prelate granted them an indulgence of 40 days from purgatory. Bekynton is still commemorated, and the people of Wells remain healthy, although regrettably the water from the well is no longer safe to drink, and indulgences are no longer a part of my privilege as the Bishop of Bath and Wells.
In opening this debate, I declare an interest as an ambassador for WaterAid. More widely, in my time as director of an international mission and development agency, I have seen the effect that the provision of clean water and sanitation has, not only on individuals and communities but upon economies, healthcare and education.
Today’s debate has been called as a response to the sanitation and water crises in the developing world, and it could not be more timely. Not only will it be World Water Day on Thursday, but we are just one month away from a vital meeting to push forward progress on tackling the water and sanitation crisis—the Sanitation and Water for All high-level meeting.
Water and sanitation poverty is one of the greatest and most neglected crises in international development. It is undermining the collective efforts of the international community to achieve the millennium development goals. Diarrhoeal disease is, according to the World Health Organisation, the biggest killer of children in Africa. Ninety per cent of cases are caused by the lack of access to clean water and sanitation. Diarrhoea causes more child deaths than AIDS, malaria and TB combined and, as the latest United Nations report on water and sanitation indicates, the majority of these child deaths are in south Asia.
It is entirely unacceptable in the 21st century that international development efforts are still held back because of a lack of access to clean water and sanitation. Regrettably, the United Kingdom’s record on development is being weakened by the lack of concerted international action on water and sanitation. Put simply, there can be only limited benefits from focusing on giving children life-saving medicines without ensuring that the water with which they drink those pills is safe and free from human faecal matter.
Likewise, the international community’s emphasis on girls going to school is to be welcomed. However, when so many are held back from attending school by the hours spent fetching water, our collective efforts and financial contributions are being undermined. If girls are to stay in school when they reach menstrual age, it is essential that there are adequate toilet facilities when they get to school.
As our own history of public health shows, safe water and sanitation are essential not only for reducing the preventable deaths of young children but are essential services critical to public health, welfare and the productivity of all. The British Medical Association voted the commission of the London sewerage system as the most important breakthrough ever in public health—more important than penicillin or vaccines.
However, the benefits go beyond health. Diarrhoea is believed to cost Africa up to 5 per cent of its gross domestic product annually. The United Nations estimates that, on average, $1 spent on water and sanitation generates $8 in return. Earlier this month, the United Nations announced that the millennium development goal target for water had been met, five years ahead of schedule. Two billion more people now have access to water than in 1990. That is a welcome and significant achievement, and it demonstrates what can be done when the willingness is there. It shows that aid can and does work. Success in meeting the water millennium development goal target is self-evidently transformative. It happens when political leadership is combined with sustained investment.
Sadly, those gains have not been made equally across the world. I do not need to remind your Lordships that water, sanitation and hygiene are recognised by the United Nations as human rights fundamental to life and dignity, yet 780 million people are still without access, the majority of them are the poorest in society and four in 10 live in sub-Saharan Africa. Sustainability is essential. Access to safe water needs to be complemented with access to sanitation. Without adequate toilets, human waste will pollute water sources.
Both former and present Governments have good reason to point to our successes in delivering water to the poorest people and the saving of lives. Eight of the top 10 recipients of aid for water provided by the UK are on track to meet the millennium development goals or have already met them. Having met the water target, we need to complement our efforts on water by making and keeping it safe and clean. That requires investment in sanitation. That is particularly critical at a time of rapid urbanisation when the growth of the world's population is largely in urban slums. On current estimates, more than 500 million people will suffer through the failure to meet the sanitation millennium development goal. It is said that in Africa universal access to sanitation is still more than 250 years away.
The Secretary of State is to be commended for leading the world through his commitment to attend the Sanitation and Water for All partnership high-level meeting in Washington next month. He was the first donor Minister to do so, and our hopes are high for both attendance and outcomes from that crucial meeting. Our Government are further to be commended for their commitment to 0.7 per cent of annual income to be spent on aid, but overall, aid for water and sanitation has declined in proportion to the aid for other sectors. Where it stood at more than 8 per cent of total aid in the mid-1990s, it has now fallen to below 5.5 per cent. Globally, there is a huge shortfall in funding for the crisis.
I regret that the picture is less healthy when we look at the United Kingdom’s contribution. The UK’s bilateral aid to the sector was less than 2 per cent of our total aid in 2010, and the proportion of UK bilateral aid that goes to water and sanitation programmes is less than 50 per cent of the average reported by other donors. Although the Secretary of State himself is showing great personal leadership on the issue, the UK’s financial contribution on water and sanitation is not keeping pace with other donors and, more importantly, not rising to the scale of the crisis.
Is there an imbalance here that needs to be corrected? There is no sense in a government strategy which invests in girls’ education without investing in the removal of barriers to their attendance. Surely the Government must consider the drawbacks of investing resources in medicine without ensuring that the water taken with those medicines is clean and free from human faecal matter. DfID’s water, sanitation and hygiene programme is fantastic value for money, but we must step up the volume in line with the quality of our aid if we want results across health, women's livelihoods, education and nutrition.
I dare to hope that this debate today may have something of the same effect on the world’s population, to its benefit, as Bishop Bekynton did for the people of Wells in the 15th century. While I cannot offer indulgences, I crave your Lordships’ in support of the Question on enhancing access to proper sanitation and safe water in developing countries.
Baroness Jenkin of Kennington
My Lords, like many other noble Lords, while preparing for this debate I thought about water every time I turned on a tap, filled a kettle, flushed the loo, ran a bath or a shower: simple things that we all do every day without thinking about it. Tomorrow, however, and perhaps the day after, we will all go back to taking for granted the miracle that is fresh, clean running water.
We owe the right reverend Prelate thanks for initiating this debate and for reminding us of our luck. In 1880, when we here in Britain revolutionised the infrastructure of water and sanitation, life expectancy for the average Briton rose by 15 years. Working towards improved sanitation for the billions of people currently without it will lead to similar improvements across the world.
In the last 20 years, between 1990 and 2010, over 2 billion people gained access to improved water sources and 1.8 billion people gained access to improved sanitation facilities. Globally, though, 783 million people—11 per cent of the world's population—are still without safe drinking water and 2.5 billion without sanitation, so, as the right reverend Prelate said, there is still much to do.
Water and sanitation are rightly high on the aid agenda. I am delighted that the UK and DfID are leading the way by showing commitment to ensuring that clean water and sanitation get to more people globally than in the whole of the UK. As the right reverend Prelate said, we welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to attend the high-level meeting on sanitation and water in Washington this April.
It is important, however, to note that progress is not just about access to clean drinking water. Hygienic toilets, education in sanitation, and effective hand washing really do save lives. Anyone who works for a water charity will tell you that access to water is not about stopping dehydration; it builds communities. By building a latrine and sanitation block in a school, attendance, particularly for girls, can double. When Wells for India, a UK-based charity, builds such facilities it always give preference to girls to attend the school, because by lifting barriers that keep girls out of school they are given a real chance to take control of their lives, from reproductive choices to education and economic control. For example, girls are far more likely to attend school when there are private and safe facilities for adolescent girls during menstruation. The availability of sanitation services at school can directly impact the drop-out rate of girls from full-time education. By increasing these amenities, we can dramatically improve the opportunities for these young girls.
Women are helped in a multitude of ways by increased access to water and sanitation. For example, going to the toilet in the open puts them in danger of being assaulted. In Bhopal, WaterAid has spoken to women who forgo food and drink during the day to avoid needing to defecate in the open in daylight. By waiting until nightfall they then place themselves at greater risk of sexual violence.
Water aid charities rightly focus on new technology for harvesting water. From gully plugs to loose stone dams and trenches, there are lots of cheap ways to harvest water. Even turning a flat roof on a house—such a common feature—into a pipe for siphoning rainwater into a tank makes the type of difference we can hardly imagine.
Poor families in sub-Saharan Africa spend around 11 per cent of their income on water. Money donated to increase access to water is extremely cost-effective—£385 can build a sanitation block for 150 people. Donating the materials to turn open-water wells—in which the water is likely to become infected—into closed, pump-using wells is astonishingly cheap; again, a small act which makes a huge difference.
Just this afternoon, I bumped into someone who told me about the role of crushed seeds of the moringa tree in clarifying and purifying water to make it safe for drinking and to suit domestic use. I rushed to my desk to investigate this magic seed further. One billion people across Asia, Africa, and Latin America are estimated to rely on untreated surface water sources for their daily water needs. Of these, some 2 million are thought to die from diseases caught from contaminated water every year, with the majority of these deaths occurring among children under five years of age.
Moringa oleifera is a vegetable tree grown in Africa, Central America, South America, the Indian subcontinent, and south-east Asia. It could be considered to be one of the world’s most useful trees. Not only is it drought resistant, it also yields cooking and lighting oil and soil fertilizer, as well as highly nutritious food in the form of its pods, leaves, seeds and flowers. However, perhaps most importantly, its seeds can be used to purify drinking water at virtually no cost. Moringa tree seeds, when crushed into powder, can be used as a water-soluble extract in suspension, resulting in an effective natural clarification agent for highly turbid and untreated pathogenic surface water—dirty river water to me. As well as improving drinkability, this technique reduces water turbidity—or cloudiness—making the result aesthetically, as well as microbiologically, more acceptable for human consumption, removing between 90 and 99 per cent of bacteria. Despite its life-saving potential, the technique is not widely known, even in areas where the moringa is routinely cultivated.
North Africa, which comprises 20 per cent of all land in Africa, receives less than a third of the continent’s total annual rainfall—an extremely small and unpredictable amount. For a continent that is so highly dependent on rain-fed agriculture, it is important not only to harvest as much rain as possible but to be able to predict when this rain will fall. In the UK there are 4,400 weather stations, at a rate of one per seven square kilometres. By comparison, in the whole of Africa there are 1,152 weather stations—roughly one per 26,000 square kilometres. In a continent where rainfall is so variable, it is impossible for farmers to know simple things, such as when to water their crops. Understanding rain dynamics, from daily to monthly scales, would strengthen early warning systems and help people such as subsistence farmers to make informed decisions on matters such as crop planting and storage.
I thank the right reverend Prelate for securing this important debate. Although I welcome the significant progress that has been made, like the right reverend Prelate, I believe it is imperative to stress that reaching the sanitation goal is still some way off. The fact that DfID is now putting such emphasis on water and sanitation is much to be welcomed and I hope that its work continues to go from strength to strength.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, 50 years ago this year, my parents moved to a farm in a very remote part of the Isle of Arran to build a business and grow a family. Although they had no mains electricity or water, they benefited from access to clean water in the hills and had the use of a septic tank and an electric generator. Partly as a result of that and partly due to their own skills and hard work, they developed an award-winning farm, as well as an award-winning team on the farm. I have always been very grateful that as a youngster I was able to grow up in such a beautiful place with access to clean water and sanitation.
Over the years as I have got older, I have become more and more angry that in a world where we talk about finding water on other planets and other such amazing developments, hundreds of millions of people all over the world today still do not have the access to clean water and sanitation that I enjoyed as a youngster. Indeed, the relevant millennium development goal, MDG 7, is unlikely to be reached. It is claimed that it may be reached and may already have been reached in relation to water, although I think that that claim may be made by the donor community rather than by those who are in need and who use the water, but on current predictions it will certainly not be reached in relation to sanitation. That is a tragedy in many respects, and I am very grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells for drawing our attention to this matter this evening. I am also grateful to him and to the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, for their wide-ranging, intelligent speeches on the issues, and I want to add to, rather than duplicate, what they have said.
I agree entirely that this matter is central to the issue that many people all over the world talk about—girls in education. Sanitation is fundamental, particularly for those of teenage years. It can also be central as a cause of conflict. As with other natural resources, access to water can be a cause of long-lasting or occasional conflict, and it contributes directly to matters of hygiene and disease. The outcomes are entirely preventable, as we know here in London and as has already been mentioned by previous speakers. Critically, access, or the lack of access, to water and sanitation is an issue of productivity too. If we genuinely believe in sustainable development, access to water and sanitation has to be central to our development strategies, but also to the strategies employed within communities in the developing world.
It will simply not be possible to build sustainable, productive economies in situations where so many, particularly women and girls, spend so much time trying to access water or are affected by the diseases and conditions that result from a lack of access to safe water. A few years ago, it was estimated by the UNDP—it is almost certainly still relevant—that 40 billion hours of labour are lost in sub-Saharan Africa every year as a result of the time taken to access safe water and to bring it back to the family home or community. That is equivalent to a total year’s labour by everyone in the workforce of France. That is how much is lost every year by the simple day-to-day duty of travelling to safe water—sometimes it is not safe—and travelling back home again.
That lack of productivity, which impacts on the local economy, on families and on community development, is central to this issue. Although I certainly welcome the efforts that have been made over the years, given the impact that those efforts have had on the number of water pumps, the development of sanitation programmes, and the other crucial elements in the international strategy to tackle this issue and to try to reach that millennium development goal, we sometimes have to question the outcome. I do not think it is good enough for those who pay for this development strategy to claim that, as we have introduced a number of pumps or a number of sanitation programmes, which affect a number of people in different parts of the world, we have achieved our goals.
If those pumps are not in use and if the local communities are not able to maintain them because the skills are not there, the capacity is not in place and the pumps are useless. I suspect that if the true figures were known and the numbers calculated by those in need, the number of people who actually have access to safe water in the world today would be significantly less than that estimated by the donor community. We need to look at this from the perspective of those who use the water rather than from those of us who have been paying for it over the past few decades.
I urge the department, the Government and our international partners to think more deeply about the strategies that we can employ to put control of this issue in the hands of local communities. We need to train local people in the necessary skills to make water and sanitation developments sustainable so that they do not need to hire engineers from 200 miles away, who take six months to get there when the pump is out of use. They should not have to wait months and sometimes even years for pumps to be repaired. Training local communities and creating the infrastructure and the capacity in local government and local businesses, with systems of payment for repair, would help to regenerate local economies and ensure that the pumps are kept in regular use. If we do that, perhaps some day we will not only reach the targets that we have set ourselves and the targets that we congratulate ourselves upon as we reach them, but we will reach the point at which, across the world, everyone has access not only to water pumps but to clean water.
Lord Chidgey
My Lords, I, too, congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells. We have had very thoughtful contributions from the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, and the noble Lord, Lord McConnell. I hope to add to what they have said, based on a number of sources, not least my own experience.
I do not know whether any noble Lord saw a rather alarming headline in the Times of London a couple of weeks ago that said that, in India, more people have access to mobile phones than to clean water. That was meant to be quite shocking and of course it was. I started to think a little more about that and it occurred to me that one of the reasons for the mobile phone explosion was not just because people wanted phones but because they are easy to get. They provide a cash flow and a really good opportunity for investment and profit. The industry does not require large, expensive and hard to maintain infrastructure. It is a satellite issue, with nothing much on the ground. Now compare that with providing clean water and sanitation. You need a large, comprehensive network to provide water or to deal with sanitation. In countries such as India, that is not so easy. It is expensive and it is hard to maintain.
We are also dealing with the fact that the United Nations has already declared clean water and sanitation to be a human right, which tends to introduce a reluctance in the population and Governments to charge reasonable rates for their provision. It makes it a bit more difficult. There is also no alternative to a mobile phone. You cannot introduce a landline and set up telegraph poles. That does not work in continents such as India. There is, however, an alternative to ground water. It is not exactly attractive; it is going to be untreated—I am afraid to say that open-air defecation is still the traditional practice in much of India and other parts of the world—but it is a water supply. There is a reason why the expansion of clean water and sanitation cannot keep pace with the attractiveness of the mobile phone; indeed, the newspaper report is not quite as shock-horror as noble Lords might think.
Nevertheless, there has been progress. The millennium development goal target for halving the number of people without access to safe water was met in 2010, as we know. However, while we have concrete proof, as the Secretary of State has said, that well-spent aid makes a difference to the lives of the poorest people, we have heard from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells that more than 780 million are still without clean water.
I must just add a few words about sub-Saharan Africa to the points that have already been made. Sub-Saharan Africa in particular lags behind. Two-thirds of the global population without an improved water source can be found in just 10 countries, six of them in Africa. Of the 50 countries in sub-Saharan Africa, only 19 are on track to meet the millennium development goals by 2015. Indications from UNICEF’s latest alternative means of analysing progress, its joint monitoring programmes, throw up some sobering trends in what is actually happening, particularly the urban-rural disparities associated with poverty and the relationship between progress and rapid population growth over the last 20 years. Rapid population growth has resulted in it being quite easy to lose any gains that have been achieved, because the additional capacity that has been provided has been taken up. On this basis, nearly 900 million people in sub-Saharan African live in countries where only 25 per cent have access to clean water. That is a very long way from the 50 per cent assumed in the millennium development goals. We are clearly not going to get there by 2015.
Turning briefly to the MDG to improve access to sanitation to 50 per cent, currently more than 2.6 billion people do not have access to flush toilets. Over 1.1 billion people still defecate in the open, and the MDG report calculates that it would take until 2049 to provide more than 75 per cent of the global population with improved sanitation—the amount needed to meet the MDG target. The right reverend Prelate made the point that to get everyone on mains loos would take another 250 years. That is a startling figure.
Much of sub-Saharan Africa is lagging sadly and desperately behind. Nearly half of the population uses either shared or unimproved facilities, an estimated 25 per cent practise open defecation, a decrease of only 11 per cent since 1990. In fact, with population growth this means that the number of people practising open defecation has increased by 33 million since then. Sub-Saharan Africa has the highest proportion of people using unimproved sanitation of any region.
I will say a few words about capacity-building, as this is quite an important aspect of this issue. The countries lagging furthest behind the MDG targets on water and sanitation are those where capacity is poor. They are often conflict-affected states with weak institutions. In those countries, where political stability is also challenged, policy development and departmental roles and responsibilities are unclear. Accountability and transparency are weak and the provision of water and sanitation services does not figure high on the agenda for career advancement in civil service departments.
The right reverend Prelate called for clean water, medicine, and education for girls. I would add political stability and capacity to that list if we are going to underpin these essential requirements. We will not achieve them without that. Institutional strengthening and technical assistance are by no means as straightforward as they seem. In my experience, appointing counterpart engineers—to pick up a point made earlier—to work with local staff can easily be compromised when you are trying to manage a project for a client team that is used to working, for example, in a French administrative system in French with young engineers who have been trained in Russia in Russian and dealing with a donor from the Middle East who refuses to work in anything but English. It is quite a challenge. You achieve the project, but you do not achieve the training. That is why there is a real problem about capacity-building. If you ensure that people can take ownership of the facilities and feel that they are theirs rather than the donors’ or the experts’, they start to look after them and cherish what they have.
Lord Cameron of Dillington
My Lords, my intervention is slightly tangential to the main thrust of the right reverend Prelate’s Question, but I thank him very much for giving me the opportunity to make it. I want to talk about water as the source of food and possible conflict in the developing world. I realise that lack of access to proper sanitation and safe water kills about 1.5 million children every year, but I want to talk about the nearly 1 billion people who go to bed hungry every night and the other 1 billion who suffer from such a single staple diet that they lack the necessary vitamins and proteins to live properly active lives. It is worth noting that the worst effects of such chronic malnutrition are on children. Not having a proper diet in early years affects brain development. For instance, it is believed that during the food price hike in 2008, some 40 million kids in the developing world suffered permanent cognitive damage from food deprivation.
The connection between this and today’s debate on water is that irrigated agriculture provides 40 per cent of the world’s food from only 20 per cent of the world’s agricultural land. It is twice as productive as non-irrigated land, so in terms of feeding the world it is very important. For instance, 90 per cent of rice grown uses irrigation. By 2030, agriculture will need 45 per cent more water, and even by 2025 the UN reckons that 40 per cent of the world’s population will live in water scarce regions, which will include all of China and India. Indian farmers are already taking 100 cubic kilometres per annum more from their aquifers than are being replaced by rains, and the aquifer under the Hebei province of China, where most of its wheat is grown, is falling at the rate of three metres per annum.
There are two simple points I want to make. First, we have to help the developing world manage its water better and, secondly, we have to help nations get together and equitably share their transboundary water before more people die in conflicts caused by water, a commodity more valuable than all the precious metals in the world.
In terms of helping countries manage their water better, I want to focus on sub-Saharan Africa. It uses very little of its renewable water resources—less than 3 per cent, of which 2 per cent is used for agriculture, compared to many parts of Asia where it is over 40 per cent. So it is in Africa where the potential for improvement is greatest. Here, the problem is based more on economics and lack of knowledge than actual physical scarcity because the greatest poverty in Africa is a poverty of information, closely followed by a lack of responsible investment.
Here are a few ideas, whereby the UK and other donors can make a difference. We can help provide more cheap farm-based and community-based reservoirs for both agricultural and domestic use. Very often, that just involves a couple of days with a bulldozer. Smallholder farmers need the knowledge to manage their soils to make them receptive to rain, they need the knowledge and funding to have drip irrigation which does not waste the water and they need the funding for small, shared abstractions from aquifers. We in the UK can help with that seed-corn funding and the dissemination of knowledge.
Ground water provides reliable water to more than 100 million people in Africa, and is a resource of choice for developing rural water supplies. But these underground resources need to be defined by their location, quality, quantity and, above all, recharge rate, so that they can be managed sustainably for future generations. We need to avoid the problems of the overused aquifers in India and China. Again, I believe this is an area where we can help.
To endorse a point already made by the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, if a poor African smallholder buys modern seeds to produce three or four times the yield of her normal seeds, she is often risking all the family’s wealth to do so. Indeed, her family’s ability to survive could be on the line, because if she plants and there is no rain, she will get no crop and will be unable to feed her family. This terrifying risk, which can get only worse with climate change, is not helped by the fact that African farmers rarely get weather forecasts to allow them to make informed decisions about their farming practices. Again, we can help here, both in the production and communication of forecasts.
Turning to my second point, water can and almost certainly will cause conflicts over the next few decades. The trouble is that waters and rivers do not recognise political boundaries. The 10 nations now using the waters of the Nile are a good example of where things could go wrong. Turkey’s dams on the Tigris and Euphrates, rivers that are the lifeblood of Iraq and Syria, are another. The excessive abstraction by Israel from the River Jordan before it reaches the country of its name could inflame an already sensitive situation. There are some 250 other shared waterways throughout the world. The Indus, for example, is another sensitive spot.
There is a UN convention on the non-navigational uses of international watercourses, which sets out how nations should resolve their differences over shared waterways. It is only in this way that the management of transboundary fresh water will be equitably shared between the conflicting needs of the poor, the rich, the farmers, the towns, and the environment in both upstream and downstream countries. This convention, which was devised with the help of UK lawyers, needs 35 countries to accede to it before it comes into operation. It currently has about 25, so anything we can do to encourage further signatories, the less danger there will be from wars breaking out over water. In spite of the fact that no one in the UK, including Defra, DfID and the Foreign Office, is able to put forward a single remaining argument against signing, our Government have not acceded to this convention. Frankly, it is a disgrace. I will end there.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I am sure we all want to put on record our appreciation to the right reverend Prelate for having introduced this debate tonight. I find it very appropriate that it comes after such a long day—indeed, many weeks—of concentrating on health in our own country. It is difficult to imagine any greater single contribution to the health, well-being and productivity of the British people than what was achieved, in the 19th century in particular, in terms of drains and potable water supplies, which were desperately essential if people were to survive the awful diseases we had here, such as cholera and all the rest.
I am glad that the right reverend Prelate also drew attention to the importance that, while being excited by what the Joint Monitoring Programme has told us about progress, we should not let those overall figures mask the very real challenges that still exist. It is clearly a very complex issue, because while it is true to say that 40 per cent of the global population without access to improved drinking water is in sub-Saharan Africa, most of the progress that has been made, proportionately, is in places such as China and India. But then, within China and India there are huge discrepancies. Indeed, according to the Joint Monitoring Programme, in India only 34 per cent of people have access to improved sanitation facilities, and it is estimated that 51 per cent of people still defecate in the open. Poor sanitation is costing India $54 billion every year, or 6 per cent of its gross domestic product. There is obviously an urgent need for investment in both hardware, such as latrines, and community-led total sanitation programmes that can impact on behaviour change.
When these matters have been raised with the Government, DfID has said that it is doing pioneer work in Bihar and that, according to the outcome of that work, it will see how such programmes can be rolled out more widely in countries such as India. It would be extremely helpful if, when the noble Baroness replies to the debate, she could tell us something about progress in Bihar.
I want to concentrate on something rather different. It has struck me that, in a world of increasing resource constraints and increasing food insecurity, access to water must also be of key geopolitical concern. Water, the lifeblood of agriculture, is already scarcer than land and is a driver of land investments. Nearly 3 billion people live in areas where the demand for water outstrips supply. In 2000, 500 million people lived in countries that were chronically short of water. By 2050, the number will have risen to more than 4 billion. By 2030 demand for water is expected to have increased by 30 per cent. Access to water is therefore a key consideration in the modern-day rush for land that has seen as many as 227 million hectares of land in developing countries—an area the size of western Europe—sold or leased since 2001, mostly to international investors. The bulk of these land acquisitions has taken place over the past two years, according to the excellent research that has been undertaken by the Land Matrix Partnership. Often these large land acquisitions can be termed as “land grabs”, taking place over the heads of communities which live or rely on the land without free or prior consent, and often constituting an abuse of human rights. Therefore, any discussion about access to water and sanitation must understand the practices and economic activities which are directly taking water away in many situations from those who most need it.
Clearly, water has great strategic significance, and clearly there is potential for greater conflict in the world as these problems become more and more acute. Nowhere is this more obvious than in Gaza. If we want peace in the Middle East we should consider the situation in Gaza at the moment. The Strategic Foresight Group pointed out in May 2011 that, at the current rate of depletion, the Gaza aquifer will become unusable by 2016 and damage will be irreversible by 2020. Against this, Israel has approved the entry of materials for only four water, sanitation and hygiene projects in Gaza, with a total value of $3.75 million. A further 13 projects, worth $74.5 million, which would benefit more than 1.4 million Palestinians, are still awaiting approval. How can we build peace and stability if people are facing injustices of this order? Surely this plays into the hands of extremists.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, pointed out on 1 February, according to the latest report from the Emergency Water, Sanitation and Hygiene Group in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, residents of Gaza use an average of 91 litres of water a day. This is less than the World Health Organisation’s recommended minimum of 100 litres of water a day to meet all health needs.
I shall be grateful if, in her reply, the noble Baroness can tell the House what specifically the Government are doing to tackle the water problems of the Middle East and Gaza because I see them as central to an overall solution in the area.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in welcoming this debate and thank the right reverend Prelate for initiating it. He said in his opening remarks that some may find it surprising that he initiated such a debate. The giveaway is in the name of the diocese that he represents: it is entirely appropriate that the Bishop of Bath and Wells should initiate a debate on water.
Some 783 million people live without access to safe water. That represents about 11 per cent of the world’s population. As we heard from other noble Lords, close to 1.3 or 1.4 million children die every year from diseases such as diarrhoea caused by poor sanitation and unclean water. There are 4,000 child deaths a day—or one child every 20 seconds. I am a father of young children. Focus on those numbers for a moment. As my noble friend Lady Jenkin said in her speech, how do we take this basic commodity so much for granted? It is not a privilege but a right that should be available to all.
One in eight people in the world do not have access to safe water. Many women and children in rural areas in developing countries spend hours every day walking many miles to collect water from unprotected, unclean sources: open wells, muddy dug-outs or streams. As I saw when I led a delegation to Bangladesh, in urban areas many collect water from open, polluted waterways or pay high prices to buy what they think is clean and sanitised water. Quite often that water is dirty and unsafe but they have no alternative. Diarrhoeal diseases caused by unsafe water and poor sanitation cause further diseases. Cholera, typhoid and dysentery are common across the developing world.
I will focus on two elements in my brief comments this evening. We all agree without exception that there is an urgent need for action, but all too often while we consistently talk about clean water and sanitation they are overlooked in the global development agenda. It is important that we see the right solution for the right area.
Through my work with charities such as Humanity First, I have seen first-hand what can be done. Humanity First says about water hand pumps that,
“Africa and Asia have many rural villages where the population is typically between 500 to 2,000. For these areas, investment in heavy duty filtration systems is not economic”,
or viable. Bore hand pumps have been installed in 18 countries by this charity, serving 1.2 million villagers. It is important that these specific solutions are sought. Filtration pumps provide another solution in metro areas. On sanitation, where there is regular rainfall, rooftop collection systems may be used,
“to harvest water into tanks which can then be used for taps and sanitary purposes”.
As other noble Lords have said, education is also key. There is no point installing systems if people do not know how to use them. Gravity-fed systems provide another alternative,
“in areas such as Sierra Leone and Uganda where natural dams of water are held in the mountains”.
These can be used by sealing the source dam and piping the water down to feed off to villages. Finally, in the most remote parts of the world, family filtration units can also be used. In the event of disasters specifically, these provide a vital source.
The other element that I briefly wish to focus on is a disease called trachoma, which can ultimately lead to blindness. It is counted by some as a neglected tropical disease. There are 110 million sufferers. It is often carried by children and is transmitted by flies. The root cause of the disease is found in poor sanitation and a general lack of clean water. That allows these flies to fester and carry the disease by landing on young children’s eyelids which then, tragically, turn inwards and cause the eventual blindness of the child. I ask Her Majesty’s Government to outline their commitment to doubling total government investments in water and sanitation to meet the millennium development goal targets of halving the proportions of people living without water and sanitation by 2015.
While we often talk of cures, the diseases linked to lack of sanitation and lack of clean water should never get to that stage. They are not just curable diseases—they are preventable ones. Clean water and sanitation provide the solution and, as I said earlier, clean and safe water is a right, not a privilege.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, I also appreciate the opportunity to talk again in this Chamber about the needs of various parts of the world where clean water is treasured more than gold.
The Pacific Institute research report said that the failure to provide safe drinking water and adequate sanitation to all people is perhaps the greatest development failure of the 20th century. There was a time when we would say that if we could abandon the production of nuclear weapons for 14 days, we would be able to provide every home in the world with safe, piped, clean water. That of course has not happened and arid desert areas, countries where drought is endemic and places where war has destroyed normal water resources arouse so much compassion on our part. We are indebted to so many organisations, voluntary as well as government ones, which have tackled the problem in such a real and effective way. They deserve our deepest gratitude.
I was associated with the Welsh Water dragon project and after the rugby result on Saturday I am glad to be able to say I was. It was at the time of the great crisis and the war in Rwanda. A team went out with the Association of Pioneer Rescue Officers and they dug wells and cleaned existing water sources. I had a fax one morning which said, “We have stopped cholera dead in our patch”. Of all the faxes I have received, that was the one that nearly made me sing the “Hallelujah Chorus”. This happened and it can happen.
It is estimated that water-borne diseases will be responsible for 135 million deaths by 2020. We have already heard how every 15 seconds a child will die of a water-borne disease. This is a massive crisis and as the Pacific Institute research said it is our greatest failure. When the need arises in a particular emergency, how ready is the United Kingdom to respond? Is there a permanent emergency working group ready to assist immediately where there is exceptional need, drawing on the experience and using the valuable talents of organisations that have also dealt with similar situations? Have we got that? Are we prepared, wherever in the world it might happen? Should this now be part of our European commitment, or even wider than that, to make sure that if there is a need, we are there.
I have also, over the years, questioned where there is water purification equipment in the United Kingdom. When we were threatened some years ago with a nuclear attack we were told then that there were 14,000 available purification plants in the United Kingdom. Some, we know, did go to water companies and then went out to places in need. A few were made available directly to places such as Bosnia. What is the situation today? Where are these 14,000 water purification plants? Have they been destroyed or sold for scrap, or do they exist somewhere where they could be made available to meet the needs of various places in the world? Finally, and very briefly, the better prepared we are to meet urgent situations immediately, the sooner we can respond and the more lives will be saved.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I, too, express my warm gratitude to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells for initiating this debate. It is ironic that your Lordships speak on the urgent need for clean water and sanitation in developing countries when over half of our country is shortly to be subject to drought orders, in order to conserve water. Much more must be done to manage water here, but in parts of the developing world the lack of clean drinking water has a devastating effect on the lives of millions and, tragically, a fatal one for almost 1.5 million people each year, a quarter of whom are children under the age of five.
It is in sub-Saharan Africa, as noble Lords have said, where the situation is the most critical. It is a part of the world where the Commonwealth has 19 members and hence, I believe, where the United Kingdom has a prime responsibility. In much of sub-Saharan Africa, still only 50 per cent to 60 per cent of people have access to improved water sources. This compares poorly with other parts of the developing world. The people of sub-Saharan Africa have for far too long been living in a vicious cycle of hunger, malnutrition, poverty and conflict. The most particular concern in threats to sustainable agriculture remains the reduction in availability of water. The noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, has already highlighted this. Without water there is no prospect of increased output and improved yields.
Recent initiatives in Turkana in northern Kenya by the charity Practical Action, whose patron is the Prince of Wales, are a source of great encouragement. Using what Turkana has a great deal of, sunshine, a solar-powered water pump has the capacity to draw up to 10,000 litres of clean water an hour. The solar system can also help purify the water. Its impact is transforming: illnesses have been much reduced; women are no longer having to walk up to seven miles to find water, and are no longer vulnerable to attack in doing so; and the production of crops and vegetables has provided enormous nutritional benefits. These are all benign differences that these solar pumps can make to these communities.
The Royal Agricultural Society of the Commonwealth is the only agricultural NGO within that association of nations. It is holding its biennial conference in Livingstone in Zambia this year. Its theme is “Feeding People: Africa’s Role in Sustainable World Food Production”. Water management is not only key to providing clean drinking water but is essential for the production of food. Africa’s population is expected to double by 2050 and stable food production will be dependent on stable water supplies. Indeed, what could have been a more impressive theme for an earlier Royal Agricultural Society of the Commonwealth conference than “The Power of Water”?
I very much welcome the Secretary of State for DfID reviewing where British aid should be directed. Providing clean water and sanitation in the world’s poorest countries should surely be central to Britain’s aid programmes. Not only do these measures immensely help people who live without these basic requirements of life, they also provides tangible evidence to British taxpayers that their money is being spent on making a profound difference to the world’s most disadvantaged.
The Government have been setting themselves challenging targets, looking for results and value for money. If over the next four years, because of aid from Britain, 15 million more people have access to clean drinking water and 25 million more people will have better sanitation facilities, what a difference that would make. I remember as a young man visiting British aid schemes in Malawi. I was struck then by the dedication of British aid workers on the ground. Today, they often work in far more dangerous areas than they did 30 years ago. We should acknowledge their outstanding contribution, which does so much to enhance Britain’s reputation as a decent country. The truth is, of course, that there is so much more to be done in securing a better, safer and prosperous future for millions of our fellow human beings.
Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead
My Lords, first, I thank the right reverend Prelate for initiating this debate. I know well his very strong commitment to international development and this is a very timely debate.
Clearly, noble Lords know and understand why water, sanitation and hygiene are critical to the efforts that we make to meet the millennium development goals, especially on health and child mortality, but also on education, gender and on other targets.
The unifying principle for public action is the recognition that since water and sanitation are basic human rights, there is an obligation upon us to act. What we do know is that there is no quick fix. Investments and policies put in place today on water and sanitation will take years to produce the results required on the scale that we need to see. However, that should not deter Governments and donors from making a far greater priority of such life and death issues.
For years many of us have identified the need for a rights-based approach to development which is clearly understood by Governments and by donors. I regret to say that this is not the case now for water and sanitation; the objectives remain the poor relation when political and economic priorities are being set. When it is so important, why is it that there are few, if any, dedicated sanitation ministries in developing countries led by senior Cabinet Ministers? How, therefore, will the under-resourcing and the need for building political momentum be dealt with, if across Governments water and sanitation are lagging behind at the back of government priorities?
This is a crisis. In development, we use that word quite a lot, but here we really have to mean it. So why is there such a shortfall in funding for this crisis? Why is it actually slipping down the priority ladder? Few noble Lords have made that point. I understand that DfID is reviewing water and sanitation programmes, checking, I suppose, for value for money. I certainly trust that the Government are listening closely to the Sanitation and Water For All partnership, which is doing such excellent work in encouraging the development of high-level political will to see a step change in the provision of water and sanitation.
However, to bring the issue into sharp focus, I have to express deep concern and dismay about the fact that the UK's bilateral aid to the sector was less than 2 per cent of total aid in 2010. Yet the proportion of UK bilateral aid that goes to water and sanitation programming is one-third of that of Germany and Spain and is less than 50 per cent of the average that is reported by other donors.
DfID can and surely should bear the burden of water sanitation and hygiene. The reason is plain. In 2010, the UK made just $66.3 million of new commitments to water and sanitation, compared to $252 million in the previous year under a Labour Government. In fact, in 2009, the Labour Government committed to spend £200 million a year on water and sanitation just for Africa, while—as the figures now clearly show—the coalition spent only half that amount worldwide in 2010-11. To be country-specific, I have to express my concern that, for instance, in Ghana, where 85 per cent of the population is without access to sanitation, 9.5 per cent of Ghanaian child deaths are due to diarrhoea, second only to malaria.
DfID has a large development programme in Ghana, which receives 3 per cent of all DfID’s aid to sub-Saharan Africa. In spite of that, though, none of DfID’s aid goes towards sanitation in Ghana, a country whose Government have an extremely good strategy on sanitation. I am therefore obliged to ask why DfID does not support this work and integrate it into its health and education programme, which works very well in Ghana. And while 5.5 per cent of all diarrheal deaths in the world are in Pakistan, DfID’s largest development partner, again, none of DfID’s programme in that country is directed to sanitation.
I could give other examples that are of great concern. I ask the Minister specifically to explain why such a significant deterioration in commitment to this crucial area of development aid has taken place. What exactly will the Government do to improve their record so far? When diarrhoea is the greatest killer of children in Africa and the second biggest killer of children globally, why is water and sanitation one of DfID’s smallest investment portfolios? We need an answer to that question.
Why is DfID not leading by example? What are the prospects for greater investment and ambition? Is DfID considering the need to extend its work into new countries where there are great needs, and in particular the need to increase efforts in south Asia? This House requires answers to these questions and a firm commitment by the Government to improve on the record so far by showing that there is clear understanding of the importance of safe water and, especially, the importance of the neglected priority for the provision of functioning toilets in developing countries.
This debate has been about the multidimensional nature of the priority that we attach to water, sanitation and hygiene. There is a huge repercussive effect for women and girls, for tackling poverty and for supporting human development. Sanitation and clean water are without doubt the most cost-effective of all public health interventions in terms of saving lives, reducing the burden of disease and improving economic productivity and growth. We therefore need to know why, when water and sanitation are so central to meeting the millennium development goals, there is such a shortfall by this Government in money and in action. Global aid has risen but water and sanitation as a share of global aid have actually fallen in the UK. When 780 million people do not have adequate sanitation, it is surely time to act and deal with what the UN has called “a pervasive benign neglect”.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in congratulating the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells on securing this debate during the week when we are commemorating World Water Day. His contribution and indeed those of all noble Lords participating this evening demonstrate our shared concern for an important issue that is central to the health and well-being of poor people in developing countries, particularly young children.
Several noble Lords have made reference to various statistics and facts to underpin the points that they have made. I will repeat some of them because they are worthy of repetition. The human and economic impact of inadequate access to water and sanitation is devastating. Some 4,000 children die every day from diarrhoeal diseases. That is an astonishing figure. On average, women in rural Africa spend one-quarter of their day fetching water, with girls sometimes being kept out of school by this onerous task. We have heard several references to the impact of the lack of safe water, particularly sanitation, on women and young girls. My noble friend Lady Jenkin was particularly compelling in her illustration of the risks put in front of young girls who do not have the benefit of sanitation.
The economic costs of inadequate access to water and sanitation are high. We estimate it is between 1 per cent and 9 per cent of countries’ gross domestic product. Other noble Lords have made interesting points in the context of the economic data. My noble friend Lord Chidgey was most interesting when he drew a comparison in India to the proliferation of mobile phones and the contrast with investment in safe water. Likewise, the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, drew a stark contrast between the loss of labour hours in sub-Saharan Africa equating to a full year’s work by the French workforce. That was quite astonishing.
As many noble Lords have said, the millennium development goal on water has been met, and this is an extraordinary achievement, which is proof that well spent aid can make a real difference to the lives of the world’s poorest people. However, we have also heard that there are disparities in achieving that goal. Some countries are a long way off meeting it. If I may respond to a question asked by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, about the measure used in meeting that goal, it is worth saying that the Joint Monitoring Programme measures use of improved water sources and adequate sanitation. So if facilities are not functioning properly, they will not be counted as providing access.
As we have heard, it remains the case that 783 million people are without access to clean water and an astonishing 2.5 billion people are without access to basic sanitation. This was a point made by the right reverend Prelate and many others. Clearly it is a long way from being met and the fact that we have a long way to go is reason enough for this to be an important issue that needs to be addressed. If this were not enough, climate change will make managing scarce water resources harder. The evidence is there as to why improving access to water and sanitation remains a priority for this and previous UK Governments. I pay tribute to the previous Government for their achievements, efforts and commitment in this area. Since coming to power, this coalition Government have set new, specific targets for our 14 bilateral aid programmes. This builds on the work of the previous Government. By 2015, we will ensure that: 15 million more people will have access to clean drinking water; 25 million more people will have access to improved sanitation facilities; and 15 million more people will have been taught about the importance of good hygiene.
However, it is not only in bilateral aid that we invest money to improve access to safe water and sanitation. We also support sustainable water and sanitation services for over 1 million poor people using the local private sector in 12 countries including Bangladesh, Kenya, Mozambique and Rwanda. These programmes support local entrepreneurs to develop and market low-cost latrines, or to construct and manage local piped water networks for the urban poor, another group of people that we have heard a lot about this evening. We provide support too, to civil society and some of our excellent British non-governmental organisations, including WaterAid, Tear Fund, Oxfam, and lesser-known organisations such as Practical Action, which my noble friend Lord Gardiner referred to. Each of these has proven their ability to reach the poor in large numbers. WaterAid’s work in Malawi is an example of what can be done. It has revived traditional approaches to composting latrines and introduced social marketing, with over 3,000 families benefiting as a result.
My noble friend Lord Chidgey asked what we were doing to build local capacity and ownership. He made the point that it is critically important, as well as providing finance to build infrastructure. In response, I can say that we work through national Governments wherever possible to develop capacity and build ownership. Our programmes combine technical assistance and infrastructure construction. That goes some way to answering one of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, about making sure that this aid is sustainable and does not just address an immediate problem but can go on supporting a nation into the future.
The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, asked a very specific question about whether the UK supports the UN convention on transboundary water management. While the UK does not in any way object to the convention and sees it as potentially developmental, we do not currently see supporting it as a priority. However, I hope the noble Lord will be pleased to know that we support several major transboundary water projects, including the Nile Basin Initiative and the South Asia Water Initiative.
Since I am talking about other projects, this is probably the right point to respond to a question that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, asked about Gaza and what the Government are doing to help the situation, which remains very difficult in that part of the world. We continue to call for the full implementation of the relaxation of access restrictions for Gaza, which Israel announced in June 2010, with robust monitoring for the entry of essential items on the dual-use list to allow for rehabilitation of the water network.
My noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno referred to 14,000 water purification units that were used some years ago. I do not have any specific information on data of that kind but NGOs, rather than the Government, would normally be the lead providers of water purification. While my noble friend is right to say that during the Kosovo crisis, NATO forces provided reverse osmosis equipment for local water purification use, at this time we would look to the NGOs to take the lead on this.
I say to my noble friend Lady Jenkin that we were not aware of the moringa tree but I will make sure that it is brought to the attention of my colleagues.
The Government are doing a great deal to improve access to water and sanitation. However, it is essential that we evaluate the effectiveness of our efforts and question whether more can and should be done—a specific point made by the right reverend Prelate. To that end and as part of our commitment to increasing accountability to all UK taxpayers, who have a right to know that we are achieving results from spending their money, we have recently conducted a full review of the UK Government’s portfolio of work in water, sanitation and hygiene promotion. We will publish the details of the review later this week to coincide with World Water Day, but I can inform your Lordships tonight that the review shows that our portfolio of programmes provides good value for money and is delivering positive results. Importantly, the review shows that our programmes are reaching the people who need them most. Last year, three-quarters of the money we spent through our country programmes was spent on basic systems such as rural water supply schemes, hand pumps and latrines, which are most likely to reach the poorest. This is a higher proportion than that achieved by almost any other donor. We are doing this in the countries with the greatest need. It goes without saying that the detailed evidence from the review will inform the Secretary of State and my other ministerial colleagues when they consider whether and how the UK Government could do more.
The right reverend Prelate made a specific point on this and asked whether we should increase our investment in water and sanitation. The UK Government are currently considering how we can scale up our results in water and sanitation on the basis of the evidence presented in the portfolio review. Any scaled-up finance can be only part of the answer. The latest Global Analysis and Assessment of Sanitation and Drinking-Water report shows that many countries are struggling to spend the allocated funding that they already receive. Strengthening government systems is also important. This is not just about more money going in but about making sure that the Governments in receipt of that money are in a position to use it.
As to the points made by other noble Lords, it is worth saying that although we have talked specifically about water and sanitation, through our commitment to projects under the headings of education, health or assisting other Governments, we do a lot to make an impact on the effects of lack of water and sanitation, and they have been referred to. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, referred to what we were doing in Bihar, and my noble friend Lord Ahmad specifically asked about the disease trachoma. Projects in all such areas are being tackled, but through other programmes rather than in the safe water programme.
I am running out of time, but I conclude by saying that just as importantly as reviewing our own investments the Secretary of State will share the evidence from our portfolio review with other donor countries and Finance Ministers from developing countries when he attends the Sanitation and Water for All high-level meeting in Washington next month. As noble Lords will know, the UK and Dutch Governments were behind the Sanitation and Water for All initiative, and again I pay tribute to the previous Government because this initiative was started during their time in power. Through it, DfID has been seeking to secure better targeting of aid to the sanitation and water sectors as well as improved transparency and accountability from other donors and national Governments. The meeting next month will assess progress against past commitments and we expect that new commitments will be made. However, we do not want just new commitments to do more. If we are to ensure an equitable spread of access to safe water and to make much better progress in improving sanitation, we need better targeting of aid.
To conclude, it is an injustice that the lack of something as basic as clean water and sanitation should adversely affect the lives of millions. This Government remain committed to addressing this injustice that has the potential to undermine the achievement of a whole range of millennium development goals. To that end, we will make sure that what we do achieves the greatest impact, that we keep learning and refining our aid programmes, and that we share our knowledge and evidence with our partners, whereby together we can all do more.
Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead
My Lords, perhaps I may request that the Minister responds in writing to the points I raised in my presentation.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
Of course—my apologies for not making it clear to the noble Baroness that I will follow up in writing. I regret that time was not available for me to respond orally this evening.