Employment Tribunals Act 1996 (Tribunal Composition) Order 2012

Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Jones of Birmingham]

“Not on my watch, guv’nor”. I was not at the CBI when that fight went on. That was the bailiwick of the noble Lord, Lord Turner, not mine. I always said, and I stand by this today, that it was a good thing to do, but the wage should never be set so high that people felt they could not afford it or it was inflationary. Because it has always been implemented very wisely, it has never had those two problems. We were fortunate that the economy had that Goldilocks aspect to it for many years after it was introduced. Many an alarmist employer would have said, “This will be the end of life as we know it”, but certainly not this one.

I am not saying that if this measure is not introduced, inward investors will not invest or small businesses will stop employing. We are not in that alarmist territory at all. All I am saying is that making it more flexible will create some jobs. We must start looking after those out of work and getting them into work, instead of only looking after those in work.

I am in favour of judges sitting alone, but only with the caveat that it is discretionary, that it will not always apply and that it will be left in the hands of the judge to decide every day. We have to get as much value for money as possible out of the system; we must not delay, obfuscate or obstruct. I would like to think that most cases will be heard with two lay people sitting with the judge. I think that will happen a lot and I am pleased that it will. But the judge should be given discretion. I will not fall for the argument that for some reason employment law is so special, specialised and expertise-driven that judges are not qualified to do this on their own. To my knowledge, most judges are not murderers, and yet they preside over murder trials without experts on either side. This is a special field, but so are many others.

Over the past 15 years we have lived through the continuing encroachment of employment legislation. I would love to know what the increase in employment tribunal hearings has been in the past 10 years. I do not know what it is, so I hope the Minister can provide me with that information. How many of those tribunals have involved people in the first or second year of their employment? I would love to know that. However, whatever those figures are, I know that a greater number of employment cases never get to a tribunal as the parties settle. The noble Lord, Lord Monks, said that good employers who have a good case will win at a tribunal. He is right, but the problem is the employer never gets there for anyone to find out. It is in a business’s interests to settle as that stops it committing further resources, time and money to the case. That smacks of blackmail and of saying, “We won’t let the system work no matter how well meaning it is because it is in the interests of wealth creation to get rid of a case”. You thereby create a compensation culture, which is surely what we have to avoid at a time when we need to get some wonderfully skilled people into the world of work for the first time in their lives. If this provision goes just a little way down the path of doing that, it may not be an answer to a maiden’s prayer but it will help us look after those who are out of work a bit better.

[Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen]

My Lords, I do not have the expertise in this area that many of my colleagues on this side of the Committee have. However, I am a former trade union official, as many noble Lords know, and therefore I am very interested in employment legislation. I should declare an interest in that my husband is a member of an employment tribunal. Indeed, he serves on the central London tribunal. I know that the Minister was lucky enough to go to that tribunal and meet members of it last week.

I wish to make two small points. My husband has served on an employment tribunal for a number of years and I have heard about the cases in which he has been involved and have reached my own judgment on what we ought to be doing in the future. Some of what is being proposed is bothering me. I am well aware that when employment tribunals were first introduced there were industrial relations problems in this country. One of the reasons for bringing in employment tribunals was the hope that they would be a more informal way of sorting out the difficulties that arose in industrial relations issues on both sides of industry. By and large, I think they have worked very well over the years. Unfortunately, we may now be heading in the other direction, and that worries me. Two points worry me particularly. The first follows on from what the noble Lord, Lord Jones, said about job creation. Obviously, I am in favour of job creation, particularly given the position the country is in at the moment. The noble Lord talked about small businesses. My background is in small business. My father and both sets of grandparents had small businesses so I am well aware of the difficulties that can arise when taking on even one extra employee.

I am a little surprised about this measure because last October the Government produced their own statistics which showed that only 6 per cent of small and medium-sized enterprises said that employment legislation was a problem in relation to taking on staff. I understand that about 1,100 businesses were consulted. This means that 94 per cent did not say that employment legislation was high on their agenda in terms of difficulties. There were other problems higher up the agenda. I am rather surprised that this issue is being brought up five months later as something that is definitely stopping SMEs taking on even one extra employee. That is something which, as the noble Lord, Lord Jones, said, I would support.

My second point concerns the expertise of those serving on employment tribunals. We in this House have all come here because of our background and expertise in different areas. It is exactly the same with those who serve on tribunals. It is not just important that a judge sits with one lay person from each side of industry to discuss issues and listen to the evidence put before them; the expertise also comes out when they get together in chambers behind closed doors to discuss what they have heard. I have spoken to judges and I know that they value employment tribunal members from both sides of industry. They value the advice of the lay members and they pick up things which, if they sat alone—whether they are a man or a woman—they would not pick up. I cannot see how one person sitting alone would be better than three people in these circumstances. Perhaps the Minister will give a little more detail on why the Government think that one person alone would be better than three.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

My Lords, I support the proposals, which I consider balanced and sensible. I will declare some interests that are on the Register. I am a director of various companies that employ people. Therefore, we will take some benefit from the proposals if they are accepted. I believe that this would increase the likelihood that we would recruit people.

I read the debate that took place in the other place on Tuesday 13 March, but did not find it very helpful. An attempt was made to characterise the orders as a throwback to an earlier age, which was both unhelpful and unfair. Employers are not red in tooth and claw, as was suggested in the other place. The noble Lord, Lord Monks, asked why an employer, if they felt that they had a good case, did not just go through to the tribunal. The answer was given in part by the noble Lord, Lord Jones: it is the enormous time that it takes to get to a tribunal.

In the case I shall refer to later, it took a year to reach a tribunal and a further three months to get the case determined with a written judgment. A small business simply cannot wait for 15 months, with all that that implies for having to pay someone who is clearly disaffected. That is why you are going to a tribunal. There would be a difficulty in the system even if it were maintained as it is now. I do not argue that all employers are saints; far from it. However, as my noble friend pointed out in his opening remarks, and various other noble Lords have said, the basic protections for employees are maintained, with day one rights particularly in cases of discrimination, which are of particular relevance in smaller companies.

Why do I support the case for the extension from one to two years? All the businesses that I am involved with are hungry for talent, and hungry to keep a stable workforce. Hiring people is extremely expensive—and letting them go is expensive, too. It is expensive because they have to be replaced, and expensive in morale terms, because when people are let go, particularly in circumstances that are not their fault, the effect on the morale of the rest of the workforce is very great. By talent, I do not just mean the talent to shoot the lights out. I mean talent at every level to put in the time to carry out his or her allotted task with care, integrity and professionalism, to be a good colleague and team member, and to provide flexibility at times of strain within the organisation. In the business in which I am involved, when we discover that sort of talent at any level, we wish to nurture, engage with and develop it. We do this through the annual performance appraisal cycle. This is an important part of the reason we should extend it from one to two years.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

I am most grateful to my noble friend for that point and we will certainly bear it in mind. As regards the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, about one person being better than three, her noble friend Lady Donaghy said that the Government’s support for lay members rings hollow. But I assure noble Lords that we value lay members, as do employment judges, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, and others have said. Judges will sit with lay members where they add value. Judges are expert in employment law and they see cases every day. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Jones, said, value for money is important.

The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, said that the industrial jury concept should not be disturbed and suggested that the tripartite panels give confidence, legitimacy and authority to the tribunals. In common with all other types of complaint that might be heard by an employment judge sitting alone, the judge will have, as I have said several times, discretion where he or she thinks it necessary to choose to sit with lay members. Despite the scepticism of the noble Baroness, this discretion, alongside the professionalism and expertise of employment judges, which stakeholders from all perspectives have recognised, should mean that all users maintain the same high levels of competence in the system as now. Civil courts up and down the land have lone judges making decisions and that is not just in criminal cases, as the noble Lord, Lord Jones, mentioned.

The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, also suggested that the potential benefit may not be worth it. Predicting what savings will be made across the 10,000-plus unfair dismissal complaints heard each year is difficult, given the need for judges to exercise discretion and assess what cases might require full panels. The savings, which were conservatively estimated in our impact assessment, might not be considered significant but as a Government we must take all measures to ensure that taxpayers’ money is used to best effect.

The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, who quoted the impact assessment, asked why we are legislating now rather than waiting for the Underhill recommendations. The terms of reference for the Underhill review relate clearly to procedural rules. The constitution and composition of the tribunals, as distinct from the procedural rules, particularly given the resource implications associated with judicial and member sitting, is a matter properly for Ministers and for Parliament. Furthermore, there is no reason to await the outcome of the Underhill review when the Government have concluded that there is a case for change.

The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, asked about fee charging in an employment tribunal. Although this is not one of the matters we are principally discussing today, let me say that most people will never use an employment tribunal in their lives; yet the taxpayer funds the system at a cost of £85 million. The objective is to transfer the cost burden from taxpayers to the users of the system.

I appreciate the points that have been raised. I will go away and reflect on them carefully. Certainly, if there is anything on which I have not responded, I will write to noble Lords.

[Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen]

The Minister’s response has shown how controversial these issues are. It has always been the practice that we have discussed in the Moses Room things that are not controversial. Usually when I am in the Moses Room I am in the chair, so I am able to listen to everything that is going on. Will there be a possibility of these orders being discussed in the Chamber? I do not know who took the decision to have them in the Moses Room. I think that this discussion should have been held in the Chamber.

[Lord De Mauley]

The noble Baroness makes a fair point. Under the process we are going through today, we are asked to consider. We are not asked to come to a final conclusion. As the noble Baroness knows, these orders will come to the Chamber. I believe that there is the chance that the Opposition may lay a Motion.