Commons Chamber

Wednesday 22nd October 2025

(began 2 weeks, 6 days ago)

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11:34
None Portrait Q1. What assessment he has made of the potential impact of changes to Inheritance Tax relief on Scotland's agricultural sector. (905876)
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The The older The older we The older we start The older we start with.
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None Portrait Q2. What assessment he has made of the contribution of North Sea gas and oil to energy security. (905877)
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Doctor Ben Spencer.
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None Portrait Q7. What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on fiscal steps to reduce the cost of living in Scotland. (905882)
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It doesn't make.
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None Portrait Prime Minister's Question Time
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Australia. We now come to Roz Savage.
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Question number one. unveiled Labour's plan to recruit hundreds of thousand workers into clean energy, creating quality,

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well-paid jobs in every quarter of the United Kingdom. On Monday. We announced. A new V level qualification.

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A new V level qualification. To make sure. Every young person. Has. potential. On cheap.

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On cheap. On Tuesday, our first ever regional investment summit in Birmingham secured £10 billion in investment.

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investment. And today. We're. Announcing tough new penalties to end the scale.

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seas. Mr Speaker, that's national. Renewal with a Labour government.

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Renewal with a Labour government. Mr Speaker, yesterday I met Claire Throttle, who is here with us in the

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Throttle, who is here with us in the gallery today. Her two young sons, Paul and. Jack.

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Jack. Were murdered 11 years ago this

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a. Family. Court ordered. He should have unsupervised contact. With them.

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With them. Claire's bravery and her campaign is humbling. And today, I'm pleased.

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We can announce. That we will repeal. The. Presumption of parental involvement, putting.

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involvement, putting. Children's safety first. This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues.
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Prime Minister.

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Can I thank you for raising that on behalf of Fiona? Let me. Give Fiona in the House my

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Give Fiona in the House my answer, Mr Speaker, because the grooming scandal was one of the worst scandals of our time. Women

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worst scandals of our time. Women and girls were abused and exploited by predatory gangs. Of men.

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Of men. And survivors have been ignored for many. Years. Including by the state. That, of course, is supposed to.

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That, of course, is supposed to. Protect them. My vow to Fiona. And. Them is that this national. Inquiry will.

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Inquiry will. Change that. I do acknowledge that in recent days, some members. Including Fiona.

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Including Fiona. Have decided to step. Away from the panel. I say this, Mr Speaker, should they wish to return. The door.

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The door. Will always be open. But even if they do not, we owe it to them and

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they do not, we owe it to them and to Fiona and to the country to raised. The inquiry.

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The inquiry. Is not and will never be watered down. Its scope will. Not change. It will examine the ethnicity and religion of the offenders, and we

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religion of the offenders, and we will find the right person to Chair. The inquiry. I can tell the House today, Mr

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I can tell the House today, Mr Speaker, that Dame Louise Casey will now support the work of the inquiry, and it will get to the truth, and justice will have. No place to hide.
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Prime Minister? Well, let.

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Me reassure the victims and the will.

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will. Not be diluted and we won't shy. Away from cultural or religious

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Away from cultural or religious issues. And, Mr Speaker, it was me that. Commissioned Baroness Casey in that. Commissioned Baroness Casey in the first place who gave me her recommendation in relation to a recommendation in relation to a national inquiry. And we have in the four months since then, finalise the panel and trying to get the leadership of this inquiry right. With survivors at the heart. Mr With survivors at the heart. Mr Speaker, in that period we have also Speaker, in that period we have also reopened 1200 historic closed cases.

I have long argued, Mr Speaker, that the criminal route where it can be the criminal route where it can be pursued is the right route for perpetrators. We've introduced mandatory reporting of child sex mandatory reporting of child sex abuse. I happen to think that is a vital safeguard. I've been campaigning for that for over a

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decade. I asked the last government to introduce it, and that fell on deaf ears. And that that. Mark, that.

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Mark, that. Mandatory reporting, mandatory reporting of child sex abuse is something that each and every one of them voted against earlier this year. And we've given victims and survivors the power to seek an independent review of their cases. But, Mr Speaker, in relation to this inquiry, I want to go as fast as we can to get the justice that is deserved. I want to ensure survivors are involved in that, and we're balancing the two to get this right, and I'll continue to do so.
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Kemi Badenoch Portrait Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
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Then it may not.

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What he should hang his head in shame in is calling this a far right bandwagon when he first raised. This. Issue.

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Issue. The deputy leader, the deputy. Well, the future deputy leader, we all know who's going to win, called all know who's going to win, called this a dog whistle. What we need to think about right now, Mr Speaker, is the victims. It is the survivors. I spoke to one of them yesterday. I spoke to one of them yesterday. Let's remember, these are victims who waived their anonymity. An incredibly difficult thing to do. incredibly difficult thing to do. And they believe that the safeguarding minister has lied to safeguarding minister has lied to them and about them.

One of the survivors has said, and I quote, Jess Phillips needs to be removed Jess Phillips needs to be removed because I do not think her conduct during this has been acceptable for the position that she holds. That the position that she holds. That is, those aren't my words. Those are the words of the survivor. It is a the words of the survivor. It is a shame that Labour MPs are drowning that out. The member for Birmingham that out. The member for Birmingham Yardley has clearly lost the confidence of the victims.

Does she still have the confidence of the Prime Minister?

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Prime Minister? Can I just say but Prime Minister, even if we are. Quoting somebody else, we shouldn't quote it because the
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12:41
Heidi Alexander Portrait Rt Hon Heidi Alexander MP, The Secretary of State for Transport (Swindon South, Labour)
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Quietly and quickly. We come. To the statement on Heathrow. I Alexander.

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Alexander. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy. Speaker, I would like to update

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Speaker, I would like to update the House on the steps this benefits. Of expansion.

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Of expansion. At Heathrow Airport. Having invited proposals for a third runway earlier this year, today I am earlier this year, today I am launching a review at the Airports National Policy Statement.

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Britain wants to fly and this government will act to meet public government will act to meet public aspirations. Our review at the MPs will ensure that while we unlock will ensure that while we unlock long term capacity for more flights at the nation's only hub airport, we at the nation's only hub airport, we will also meet our obligations to passengers, communities and the environment. Today is a step forward environment. Today is a step forward for UK aviation and infrastructure, supporting growth in the economy and supporting growth in the economy and enabling a modern, efficient transport system that harnesses international investment, boosts connectivity and strengthens UK competitiveness.

We are committed to competitiveness. We are committed to making a decision on a third runway at Heathrow within this Parliament, at Heathrow within this Parliament, and we are clear on our ambition to see flights taking off on a new see flights taking off on a new runway in 2035. We said we would get on with this and we have. When the previous government set up the Davis previous government set up the Davis Commission, it took them five years to publish the original draft amps.

to publish the original draft amps. We'll get to the same point in 18 months, with the process completed months, with the process completed by the end of 2026, showing our commitment to delivering progress swiftly but also robustly. When we say we back the builders, not the blockers, we mean it. Yeah, but this is not a blank check. Expansion at Heathrow must minimise cost for passengers and customers. The taxpayer must not be expected to foot the bill. That is why the scheme will be privately financed.

Both the core project and the related infrastructure improvements. Extra staff and passengers must be able to get to and from the airport without turning the M4 and the M25 into Europe's largest car park. Crucially, the expansion must align with our legal, environmental and climate commitments. Starting the review of the Amps is critical to delivering expansion and will provide the basis for decisions on any future planning applications. The world has changed since the last AMP's review in 2018, and when it was designated at that point, new environmental and climate obligations have been introduced and patterns of travel have changed.

Stand in pretty much any UK airport this summer, though, and you will have seen the busiest summer on record. We could put our head in the sand and pretend that this isn't the case, but we would be doing a disservice to our economy and the next generation. That is why, in carrying out this review, we will consider how any proposed scheme must meet for clear tests. Does it contributes to economic growth across the country that it meets our air quality obligations, that it is consistent with our noise commitments and, crucially, that it aligns with our legal obligations on climate change, including net zero.

We will seek the independent opinion of the Climate Change Committee, and I will be writing to them shortly to request this advice. Whilst a third runway at Heathrow has been factored in to carbon budget six, it is right that we update our modelling and seek the views of the CCRC. Given the national importance of Heathrow, we will also consider naming the airport as critical national priority infrastructure in line with our approach to low carbon energy projects, we are further considering whether to name a statutory undertaker as an appropriate person to carry out the project.

Under the Planning Act of 2008, providing additional clarity to stakeholders and the local community. It is clear that this is a large and complex programme that requires a thorough and evidence led approach. Over the coming months, my department will develop analysis on economic and environmental impacts of expansion. We will also undertake an appraisal of sustainability as required by statute, alongside a Habitats Regulation assessment and other necessary technical work. If amendments are needed to the Amps. As a result of the review, we expect to consult on an amended policy statement by next summer.

Communities will be able to have their say, and we will shortly publish an updated stakeholder engagement approach to ensure transparency and fairness throughout the process. Madam Deputy Speaker, earlier this year, we invited potential promoters to submit proposals for delivering a third runway at Heathrow. Seven proposals were received and were considered by officials from the Department for transport, from the Treasury and expert financial and technical advisers. Following this assessment, two potential schemes remain under active consideration.

A proposal from Heathrow Airport Limited and a proposal from the Aurora Group. We know we must provide as much clarity and certainty for communities, investors and users of Heathrow as soon as possible, so we are seeking further information on the two proposed schemes, with a view to reaching a final decision on a single scheme to inform the remainder of the AMP's review by the end of November. When making this decision, we will consider the interoperability of the proposed scheme with existing infrastructure.

The plans for transport to and from the airport and associated road schemes. The land take an impact on surrounding homes and communities. The evidence that the scheme can be privately financed and the economic benefits of the scheme. This government is committed to moving quickly, but we will also do this properly to deliver the scheme on time. The government is also pressing ahead with a series of enabling reforms. The Planning and Infrastructure Bill will streamline the delivery of major infrastructure, including Heathrow.

This includes faster consenting routes and more proportionate consultations on judicial reviews. We have announced that we will work with the judiciary to cut the amount of time it takes for a review to move through the court system for national policy statements and nationally significant infrastructure projects. We are establishing the UK Airspace Design Service to deliver modernised airspace. This will initially prioritise airspace design for the London region, supporting both Heathrow and the wider network. This will also make flight paths more efficient so planes spend less time over London.

We will initiate slot reform to ensure future allocation maximises benefits of an expanded Heathrow, as well as improved growth at Gatwick and Luton for passengers, local communities and businesses. Expanding Heathrow will be one of the largest infrastructure projects in the UK. Rigorous and effective cost control will be essential to its success, both in minimising any impact on airline charges and costs to passengers and maintaining credibility with financial markets. The government will therefore work with the Civil Aviation Authority to review the framework for economic regulation for capacity expansion at Heathrow.

Ensuring the model provides strong incentives for cost effective delivery. We expect the CAA to publish a working paper in November with a view to this work completing next summer. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is a landmark opportunity for Heathrow, for the aviation sector and for the UK economy. The government remains fully committed to ensuring the expansion is delivered in a way that is timely, cost efficient and environmentally responsible. I commend this statement to the House.
12:49
Richard Holden Portrait Rt Hon Richard Holden MP (Basildon and Billericay, Conservative)
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Call the Shadow Transport Minister Richard Holden. Deputy Speaker. And I'm grateful to the Secretary of State for her statement. And also for advanced sight of it. Mr Speaker, this statement should have been brought to the House months ago. The Secretary of State surely recognises that today marks a delay and an acknowledgement of that, rather than the decisive move forward. The truth is that this whole process has come about it the wrong way round. With recent announcements on Gatwick and Heathrow not driven by planned or prepared work, but by a clear attempt to divert attention from the government's growing list of crises, scandals and cover ups, rather than any clear plan for the future of.

British aviation. However, we on these benches nonetheless welcome the fact the statement has finally been brought forward to the House.

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Because both the aviation sector and passengers deserve clarity, as. Do local. People who will be affected, and

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People who will be affected, and we hope that. They will see sensible mitigations from these proposals. So can the Secretary of State also. Confirm what assessment the Confirm what assessment the government has undertaken so far of the costs, total costs of Heathrow expansion, given that the one of the expansion, given that the one of the central estimate now stands at almost £50 billion, excluding an extra, potentially £10 billion of

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extra, potentially £10 billion of figures. Would quadruple Heathrow's. Current asset base. Already responsible.

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Already responsible. For some of the. Highest passenger charges. In. The world. And if Britain is to remain competitive on the global remain competitive on the global stage, these costs must be kept down, not driven up, crucially too. How will the government therefore How will the government therefore ensure that these costs are minimised, not maximised? As I am sure the Secretary of State, like me, does not want those costs directly passed on to airlines and then passengers in higher fees, because affordability must be at the because affordability must be at the heart of any credible aviation strategy.

Maintaining affordable flights is crucial for passengers. flights is crucial for passengers. So can the Secretary of State assure the House that the Heathrow expansion will not result in significant passthrough costs, especially given how this especially given how this government's rises in Air Passenger Duty, the jobs tax and now real Duty, the jobs tax and now real concerns over business rates will also affect the aviation sector. I understand, too, that The Chancellor has claimed a third runway will be operational by 2035, something the Secretary of State has reflected today, and she wants to see speed in the ground during this Parliament.

Of course, we welcome and reforms enabled to do that. These reforms, however, will not have any teeth unless the government commits to backing our plan to scrap the Climate Change Act. Otherwise, Heathrow expansion will face judicial review after judicial review, bogging down the process by driving up costs and delivering further delay. Even Labour's mayor of London has said that he won't hesitate to launch legal challenges against a third runway. So can the Secretary of State commit to ensuring that her own Labour colleagues, including those she worked for previously and allies, will not be the ones who prevent this important project from ever seeing the light of day.

Because you also commit to ensure that the associated roads and rail links to not just fall into London, but also to the south included, so that expansion delivers genuine economic growth and connectivity for the whole of the United Kingdom. And Madam Deputy Speaker, the conservatives would end the constant threat of judicial review and eco warfare to ensure that infrastructure across the country can finally be delivered on time and on budget, and in Britain's national interests. It was great to hear her words on this from the despatch box.

But will these reforms she's talking about with the judiciary actually come into force before the decisions on Heathrow and the DCO are made, or will they be subject to the current situation we're facing? We on these benches recognise that greater competition is the most effective way to deliver value for money and reduce costs to consumers, and I am grateful that the Secretary of State for her statement acknowledges that Heathrow expansion must minimise costs. But the only way to achieve that is through real and genuine competition.

Heathrow's current structure has a potential to create perverse incentives that reward higher spending rather than efficiency, pushing up charges for passengers and airlines. And I note that the commitment from the CaaS review into economic regulation will begin in November. But that review must look seriously and fundamentally about how to embed competition and reverse perverse incentives. So can I ask the Secretary of State how she and the CAA intend to bring competition to the heart of delivering this project, and will she commit to that review? She said, before summer or in summer next year, will it be before the summer recess? So this House will have time to scrutinise it too? While this government continues to splurge cash, hike up taxes and debt and tie Britain in eco warfare with their with our green allies, only conservatives would restore confidence, break that cycle and deliver a stronger economy with world class aviation at its heart.

Sadly, under this government taxes have risen to historic highs. They've imposed a punishing jobs tax and borrowing has soared to the highest levels since 2010 outside the pandemic, with a £100 billion. Now they're in annual debt interest payments. A third runway alone will not shield the country from the consequences of Labour's economic mismanagement, but it is a project that must be delivered correctly and responsible, responsibly, responsibly and will also must also put passengers at its heart.
12:54
Heidi Alexander Portrait Rt Hon Heidi Alexander MP, The Secretary of State for Transport (Swindon South, Labour)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm interested by the Right Honourable Gentleman's comments Honourable Gentleman's comments about our pace of delivery. And I, I roundly reject his criticisms on roundly reject his criticisms on this. We are the party that are accelerating Heathrow expansion today, setting out this swift and robust review of the Amps to help us determine applications swiftly. Previous work to get a final airports national policy statement by the last government took more than five years.

This government than five years. This government will do it three years faster. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are getting on with the job, taking the important with the job, taking the important and sometimes difficult decisions to get Britain building. And I gently remind him that when his great ally remind him that when his great ally and mentor, Boris Johnson was Prime Minister, he went to such lengths to Minister, he went to such lengths to duck decisions on on this issue that he ended up in Afghanistan.

Madam he ended up in Afghanistan. Madam Deputy Speaker, the honourable gentleman is absolutely right to care about consumers and cost care about consumers and cost control. And that's precisely why we are reviewing the Amps and why we are reviewing the Amps and why we are starting the work via the Civil Aviation Authority on the model of economic regulation. I would say this to him, if we fail to plan for future capacity, prices will rise and choice will shrink. This review will be integral in keeping the UK competitive and connected by ensuring sufficient capacity.

Fair competition between global hub airports and sustainable growth. I agree with him that consumers deserve affordable fares and greener aviation, and that is what we are working to deliver. Madam Deputy Speaker, he also asks about climate change, service access, our reforms to do judicial reviews on service access. I can be clear with him that we expect this project and associated infrastructure improvements to be privately financed. Through the Amps review, we will be looking holistically at public transport requirements, be that Southern rail access, Western rail access, how people get to and from central London.

He will recall that in the spending review, we set out the biggest investment in London's transport for over ten years, £2.2 billion, enabling TfL to buy new rolling stock on the Piccadilly line, ten extra Elizabeth line trains and we will work closely with our colleague that the Mayor of London and TfL to ensure that appropriate infrastructure is in place. He talks about the changes that we are making to judicial review, and I would simply say this to him, we are acting with his government, had their head in the sand.

I am confident that the CAA will look carefully at competition issues in the work that they are doing, and I am also confident, Madam Deputy Speaker, ultimately, I know that at Heathrow we could create 100,000 jobs through expansion. We could boost economic growth, growth as well as opening up new opportunities for trade, tourism and travel. We will do this properly. That is what we're doing by launching the AMP's review today, and I look forward to answering further questions from other honourable members.
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Ruth Cadbury Portrait Ruth Cadbury MP (Brentford and Isleworth, Labour)
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Let me say Ruth Cadbury. Secretary of State for her statement today and I look forward, hopefully to the work she does on this. And as to come to our. Committee in due course. Now, a third runway at Heathrow, combined with all of the other agreed or likely to be agreed expansions of capacity in London and South East airports is an increase of 177 million passengers, 70% more than the number of passengers in London in the South east from 2024.

So I look forward to how to the climate change Committee's response because they said a 35% increase in capacity could would be the maximum that that would keep the UK compliant with our international legal commitments. But back to more specifics. In her statement, she says she seeks to minimise costs for passengers and customers. But given the cost of runway three will be between 25 billion and 49 billion, how exactly will that not pass those costs on to the airlines and therefore the passengers? If the Treasury isn't going to fund those costs, which we know that they're not, and on surface access, ever since the expansion of the building of the fifth terminal, the local authorities all around Heathrow have been pushing for southern access, southern rail access to Heathrow, Heathrow, Heathrow Airport have long says and have clarified recently they will not pay the cost of Southern rail access.

So how does she expect that to be funded? If the M25 and the M4 are not to ground to a halt? If passengers and workers from the west of the airport are going to and south of the airport are going to be able to get in and out of the airport, I would like to ask her to answer the how. Thank you. you.
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Olly Glover Portrait Olly Glover MP (Didcot and Wantage, Liberal Democrat)
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Liberal Democrat spokesperson Olly Glover. and I thank the Secretary of State for her statement. Which made the government's intent very clear to support.

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This proposed Heathrow third runway. And although. It was good to hear. Her.

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Her. recognise. The complexity of all that will. Be needed to deliver it,

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Be needed to deliver it, including major diversionary works of two of the country's busiest motorways. And we. Here in the Liberal Democrats

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continue. To support. The right infrastructure in the right place, which is why we have always supported schemes such as East-West Rail.

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And. Northern Powerhouse Rail. But it does need to be the right infrastructure to tackle the right infrastructure to tackle the right problems. And there are many unanswered questions about Heathrow third runway. The New Economics Foundation has been very clear that Foundation has been very clear that in their analysis that the environmental impact of airport expansion will.

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Erode a lot of our carbon emissions reductions plans. And many studies have questioned the economic studies have questioned the economic case for Heathrow. I'd also perhaps interested to hear from the Secretary of State about the dangers of relying solely on the private of relying solely on the private sector to fund large schemes. That was the case for the Channel Tunnel, which remains an enormously underutilised asset, partly because underutilised asset, partly because of the costs that have resulted of the decision to only have it private the decision to only have it private sector funded.

It's welcome that the Secretary of State has made her support for this subject to four support for this subject to four tests. But I do detect perhaps a slight hint of cognitive dissonance and contradiction, given that at the same time the government is setting out timelines for delivering something that they say is subject to four tests? So can I ask her very specifically? She mentioned the Climate Change Committee and that she will hear it's independent advice. I ask the Secretary of State if the Climate Change Committee decides that the preferred option for Heathrow third runway is incompatible with our carbon emissions and our net zero targets, will she drop her support for this third runway.
13:03
Heidi Alexander Portrait Rt Hon Heidi Alexander MP, The Secretary of State for Transport (Swindon South, Labour)
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Can I start by congratulating the honourable gentleman on his honourable gentleman on his appointment? He refers to research that has been done by the New that has been done by the New Economics Foundation. And I should be clear with him that this government is absolutely committed to reaching net zero for the whole economy by 2050, and that we will meet our climate change obligations meet our climate change obligations as set out in the Climate Change Act. We've also been clear repeatedly that any airport repeatedly that any airport expansion proposals will need to demonstrate that they contribute to economic growth and can be delivered in line with the UK's legally binding climate change commitment.

binding climate change commitment. We will be engaging with the PCC as part of the AMP's review. Heathrow part of the AMP's review. Heathrow is only one part of the process, of course. The expansion of Heathrow, Luton and Gatwick and Bristol Luton and Gatwick and Bristol airports. It was factored in to carbon budget seven, and he will know that the government in the know that the government in the coming weeks will be publishing its updated delivery plan for carbon updated delivery plan for carbon budgets 4 to 6.

I don't think we should see economic growth and our climate change commitments as being inconsistent with one another. I believe we can go further and faster in terms of cleaner fuels and technological developments. But I am also clear that people want to fly, and I don't think this government should get on the wrong side of public aspiration.
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John McDonnell Portrait Rt Hon John McDonnell MP (Hayes and Harlington, Labour)
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Yes, it John McDonnell. my sympathy for the Secretary of State? She knows from her past experience that this is like watching a political car crash in action, and it's been thrust upon her by The Chancellor. So I express my sympathy for that. And there he goes, because she knows that Heathrow have made a clear commitment. They're not going to pay for the infrastructure. She knows that landing charges will go up, so passengers will pay for it. And she knows there's no way we can meet our climate change targets if this goes ahead.

So that's why I express my sympathy. She's been given an impossible task. I just want from my specific constituency interest, as she will know, because Heathrow's in my constituency. She mentioned that the stakeholder engagement process will be published shortly. Could she be a bit more precise? First of all, about that timescale and also what that what measures will be included in that? Because the House does need to know that in my constituency, 4500 homes would be demolished or rendered unliveable 15,000 people will lose their homes, we'll lose three schools, whole communities will go.

So my constituents will will want to know, want to ask the question, where are they going to live, where their children are going to be educated, and what will that happen to their overall community? We just need some certainty now. And the certainty from my point of view, is to recognise that this is a white elephant. It's almost like watching HS2 all over again.
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Florence Eshalomi Portrait Florence Eshalomi MP (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )
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Thank you.

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Of State for her statement this. Afternoon, and. I'm pleased to hear that. This will be a.

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Thorough and meaningful consultation, because even though. My Vauxhall and Camberwell Green. Constituency isn't near the.

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Constituency isn't near the. Airport, we do and constituents rights them on a regular basis. Constituents from. Camberwell, Stockwell and Brixton. Suffering from.

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Brixton. Suffering from. Air pollution and. Noise pollution as well. The Secretary. State. Highlighted in terms of.

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Highlighted in terms of. The infrastructure. And one of the key. Areas is around making sure more

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Areas is around making sure more people are used in public transport to Heathrow. And the reality is that some of the upgrades to the airport some of the upgrades to the airport haven't had the funding over the many years. And as the Chair of the Select Committee highlighted, I just Select Committee highlighted, I just wanted to tease that out a bit more from the Secretary of State in terms of that private funding, because at the moment we have a number of cases the moment we have a number of cases where we see some developers committing to something committed, but then the viability issue comes but then the viability issue comes up and the money never seems to appear.

So will she make sure that there is funding to secure the vital
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Heidi Alexander Portrait Rt Hon Heidi Alexander MP, The Secretary of State for Transport (Swindon South, Labour)
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transport infrastructure to any new airport? Secretary of State. How people get to and from an

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How people get to and from an airport is as important as the number of flights and planes that are landing and taking off, and so I are landing and taking off, and so I can give my honourable friend an assurance that we will be looking at these issues very closely. I would also point out that transport for London is currently buying a new fleet of Piccadilly line trains that, in and of themselves, have higher capacity. It's a larger fleet replacement programme. Ten new Elizabeth Line trains are also being built, but we will look as a whole at the whole issue of how people get to and from the airport because I agree with her that it's absolutely vital.

Munira Wilson thank you, Mr vital. Munira Wilson thank you, Mr Speaker. The Chancellor has staked her economic credibility and growth her economic credibility and growth strategy on a third runway at Heathrow. The Secretary of State today has said that she is committed today has said that she is committed to seeing flights take off in 2035. Yet at the same time, she talks about taking an evidence led about taking an evidence led approach and putting this project to her for tests, taking the advice of her for tests, taking the advice of the Climate Change Committee and doing a thorough and evidence led and doing a thorough economic and environmental impact assessment.

So could you clarify for the House? Because I fear my honourable friend Because I fear my honourable friend didn't get a straight answer. If the evidence actually shows that the environmental costs are too great environmental costs are too great and the economic benefits are too little, is she. And crucially, is her Chancellor prepared to do a her Chancellor prepared to do a U-turn? And can this whole project. Sir, stay. expanding capacity at Heathrow and having a third runway there.

There will be a thorough process that we are starting today in reviewing the policy framework against which any planning application would be judged. The Planning Inspectorate will look at that and consider all the issues about economic need air quality, noise, carbon and then a decision will be taken. We do have an ambition to see planes taking off in 2035, but that doesn't mean to say that we aren't going to be doing a thorough process. We are committed to that and that is what I'm setting out today.
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Angela Rayner Portrait Rt Hon Angela Rayner MP (Ashton-under-Lyne, Labour)
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Right. We now come to a personal statement. Angela Rayner.

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statement. Angela Rayner. And with permission, Mr Speaker, I'd like to make a personal I'd like to make a personal statement. When I made my maiden speech over a decade ago, I said

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to. Represent Ashton-under-Lyne. In this House. And alongside serving in this historic Labour government. It is still the honour of my life. I promised then to bring determination, commitment and my socialist values to this House while representing them, and I intend to representing them, and I intend to continue doing so here. My title may have changed, but the strength and the character of the people of my the character of the people of my constituency have not.

First, Mr Speaker. Let me address the circumstances under which I left office. The last few weeks. I've office. The last few weeks. I've been incredibly tough on my family, with my personal life so much in the with my personal life so much in the public eye. All of us in public life know all too well the toll of the

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know all too well the toll of the intense scrutiny we face, places on believed. In the.

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In the. Highest standards of transparency and accountability, and it is what

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and accountability, and it is what the public expects and is the price we pay for the privilege of service. Yeah.

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Yeah. That's why I referred myself to the independent adviser and gave him access to all of the information he needed. As I set out then, parents of a disabled child with a trust who divorce and seek different properties face a complex tax position. If there is one good thing, Mr Speaker, that can come out of this, I hope that other families in the situation may now be aware of that and avoid getting into the position that I am now in.

I am, of

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course, corresponding with the HMRC and they have my full cooperation. There is no.

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There is no. Excuse not to pay taxes old and I will do so.

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This was an honestly made mistake, but when you make a

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mistake, but when you make a mistake, you take responsibility. Yeah. To serve at the highest level of

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To serve at the highest level of government was a privilege. Not for the title or the office, but for the

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the title or the office, but for the chance to change the lives of the alongside. Yeah. Every day.

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Every day. I work to serve those same working class. Communities in every decision.

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Communities in every decision. That I made, I thought of them. I know the power of politics, Mr know the power of politics, Mr Speaker, to change lives because it changed my own. The last Labour government gave me the foundation to government gave me the foundation to build a better life for me and my young son, a council House to young son, a council House to support. Me sure start to help me raise my kids. And the security of a

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raise my kids. And the security of a minimum wage. A good job. And decent, secure home is. Not too much to ask.

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Exactly. But for. Too many it. Is out of reach. Yeah.

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That is what I was determined to change for the people. All of us on these benches are fighting for, and these benches are fighting for, and we must keep fighting for. That's

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why, despite the fierce criticism and the relentless. Lobbying from vested interests. I'm so proud, Mr. Speaker, that within.

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Speaker, that within. Weeks our. Landmark employment rights bill will become law. Yeah.

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It's a game changer for millions. Stock in insecure and low paid work. Stock in insecure and low paid work. Yeah, it will give them dignity and security that they deserve. Now, Mr Speaker, that those that say we can't afford to deliver new rights

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for working people, and I say we cannot afford not to. Yeah. Labour is at its best when we

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Labour is at its best when we bold. And I've been so proud to work alongside some of the trade

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unionists who nurtured and supported me to deliver the biggest upgrade to workers rights in a generation. Yeah.

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This is a personal statement, Mr Speaker, but the trade union movement taught me that it's not about yourself, it's about us. It's about yourself, it's about us. It's about who we're here for. And everything that I've done has been an endeavour for us, for our people who elected us and who we serve as Secretary of State for housing. It was my solemn duty to the Grenfell

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Tower inquiry. It's difficult to think of a more humbling. Experience.

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Yeah. A stark reminder of what happens, Mr Speaker, when we forget who we're Mr Speaker, when we forget who we're here to serve. So it's been a privilege to work on behalf of those privilege to work on behalf of those families, and it's why this government will pass a duty of government will pass a duty of candour. Make no mistake, the Hillsborough law is for the 97 and Hillsborough law is for the 97 and their families. But it's also for the so paymasters who endured the horizon scandal.

The victims of the infected blood and those who died, or whose lives were changed forever

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or whose lives were changed forever in the Grenfell Tower fire. You hear. A line in the sand that says the

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A line in the sand that says the public will always come first. And public will always come first. And I'm also incredibly proud that this Labour government provided the biggest investment in social and

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biggest investment in social and affordable housing in a generation. Paid. It was the foundation of a decent

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It was the foundation of a decent home that gave me the security to build my life on. Now we must build my life on. Now we must provide a safe and decent home to millions of people across this country. And when our Renters' Rights Bill returns to the House this afternoon, we will give a generation of renters the protections, the security and the rights that they deserve. From vote 616 to historic investment in homelessness prevention, neighbourhood renewal, to fair funding for the whole country and putting power back where it belongs in the hands of working people everywhere, I was proud to leave lead, but we achieved together with my friends on these benches and the support of our entire movement, the lifeblood of this Labour government.

When I think back about how far I've come. I remember when, at age 16, I was pregnant with my child, needing a job.

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And a home. People wrote me off, assumed. That I'd be on benefits.

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The whole of my life. Well, Mr Speaker, I wanted to prove them wrong. Yeah, I've carried that with wrong. Yeah, I've carried that with me. Whether it's on these benches at the despatch box or representing this country abroad, the support and advice of so many friends and colleagues has kept me going. But I colleagues has kept me going. But I want to give a special mention to my excellent ministerial and excellent ministerial and parliamentary team, my Honourable friends. The members for Greenwich and Woolwich, Oldham West and Royton Nottingham North and Kimberley Wellingborough Huddersfield in Gateshead and my noble friends Gateshead and my noble friends Lakhan and Baroness Taylor and my superb parliamentary and political superb parliamentary and political staff and the many excellent civil servants.

And I want to say a special thank you to many of my constituents and the public who have made contact with me. I offer my successor and his new colleagues my congratulations and of course, my congratulations and of course, my support. I am fortunate to count so many, not just as honourable

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many, not just as honourable friends, but actual friends. Here, here. I'll just finish by saying, Mr Speaker, that in each generation it has fallen to a Labour government to

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people. Yes. In 1945 it was maternity pay and

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In 1945 it was maternity pay and the NHS and homes for heroes out of the ruins of war in the 1970s, it the ruins of war in the 1970s, it was Barbara Castle and the fight for equal pay. And in the 90s it was the national minimum wage. Yes. And despite the opposition, because of despite the opposition, because of the work of this Labour government, we have the opportunity to write a

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we have the opportunity to write a new chapter of justice and fairness for working people. Yeah. Now, Mr Speaker, as tough as

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Now, Mr Speaker, as tough as politics can be, it is nothing. Nothing compared to what thousands of my constituents and this country of my constituents and this country face every single day. There are frontbench elected office is not frontbench elected office is not about us, but about our chance to change the lives of others. And from change the lives of others. And from wherever I sit on these benches, I will fight with everything I have to

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do. Exactly that. Hey, I. Just left the chamber before I

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Just left the chamber before I come to the points for the books For For the For the Ben For the Ben Obese-Jecty. For the Ben Obese-Jecty.
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None Portrait Presentation of Bills
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the bar. There we. Are, right. Well, dum dum.

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We now come to present Asha Bill Rachael Maskell.

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Removal of titles. Bill Second Reading what day. Friday.

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Friday. 31st of October. Friday the 31st of October.
13:54
Laura Kyrke-Smith Portrait Laura Kyrke-Smith MP (Aylesbury, Labour)
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Thanks much. Right. We now come to the ten minute rule motion Laura

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Kyrke-Smith. move. That leave be given to bring in a

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That leave be given to bring in a bill to require the provision of mental health assessments in NHS antenatal care, for the purpose of antenatal care, for the purpose of identifying those at risk of perinatal mental health problems and making referrals to appropriate making referrals to appropriate support and for connected purposes. Madam Deputy Speaker, we often assume that pregnancy, birth and the assume that pregnancy, birth and the year after birth are a time of life to be happy, celebrating the arrival of a new baby, embarking on a new chapter in family life.

And for some people, this is how it pans out. But for many, the reality is much for many, the reality is much tougher. I've spoken previously in this House about my brilliant friend Sophie, who took her own life after Sophie, who took her own life after the birth of her third child, who was just ten weeks old at the time. That was four years ago, and her That was four years ago, and her death remains a huge sadness in my life and for her family, some of whom are in the gallery today.

But the shock of it still sits with me too. I didn't know, and many of us don't, that suicide is the leading cause of death for a woman in that cause of death for a woman in that period, from six weeks to a year after giving birth. A statistic recently reconfirmed by the latest recently reconfirmed by the latest embrace UK report. And while Sophie's death is a particularly serious example, I also didn't know serious example, I also didn't know the scale and normality of mental illness at that time in a woman's life.

1 in 4 women experienced some sort of mental health difficulties during pregnancy or after giving birth. It can be anything from depression to anxiety to obsessive compulsive disorder or post-traumatic stress disorder, and it can be completely debilitating

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for mums and their families, and the consequences reflect. Our. Widely too. The London School of Economics and the centre for Mental Economics and the centre for Mental Health estimates that untreated perinatal mental illness cost this country over £8 billion a year, largely through the long term impact on the child's health, education and on the child's health, education and future productivity. Madam Deputy Speaker, in theory, women are asked about their mental health early in pregnancy. The guidance from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence specifies that questions about depression and questions about depression and anxiety should form part of a woman's first contact with health professionals during pregnancy, including the booking appointment.

including the booking appointment. But in practice, women's experiences vary enormously. Some women are asked a few hurried questions asked a few hurried questions between blood pressure checks. Others are not asked at all. Women with a previous history of mental illness may be given more attention, but we know that pregnancy and early motherhood can often be the first time that women experience mental time that women experience mental illness. So that's not enough. Some GP's and midwives have the training and time to offer support. Others and time to offer support.

Others are stretched far beyond capacity. Some have established mental health services to refer women onto. Some are almost afraid to ask the right questions because they don't trust that a referral will kick in. So the result is a postcode lottery, where result is a postcode lottery, where a pregnant woman's access to mental health support can depend on the NHS trust they happen to fall under. But it's also a lottery that a woman is more likely to lose if they are black, Asian and young, experiencing domestic violence, experiencing poverty or other forms of deprivation.

Because, as in so many other areas of healthcare, the pre-existing inequalities correlate to poorer outcomes. And that's why this bill matters. Because every woman, regardless of age, ethnicity, background or postcode, deserves the same standard of care and the same chance to be mentally well at this time in their life. Madam Deputy Speaker, we're not starting from scratch. In the ten year health plan, the government has set out its determination and its plan to reorient our health system away from treatment towards prevention, away from hospitals, towards the community.

Ensuring that pregnant and new mums are mentally well is one of the ultimate acts of prevention. Setting them and their children up for a healthy, productive future. On mental health specifically, including on better support for suicidal people. The government has also made its commitment very clear and matched it with action. In the last year, an additional 6700 mental health professionals have been recruited, £120 million is being invested in dedicated mental health emergency departments, ensuring that those in crisis can get health quickly, can get help quickly.

And we're rolling out the Best Start Family Hubs, which are a transformative initiative that will provide families with a single route into support services, including mental health. So my bill builds on these commitments, but it focuses the mental health support at the very start of motherhood, when women need it most. We're not starting from scratch, and our understanding of good practice either. At a roundtable I convened here in Parliament in September bringing together NHS England, the Maternal Mental Health Alliance, the Royal Colleges, parents with lived experience, other experts.

The message was united and clear. Professionals want to help, but they need structure and time and training to do it properly. The Royal College of Midwives has just published a roadmap for perinatal mental health care, which sets out what this could look like, and it's well worth a read, but I'll turn to the detailed proposals in the bill. It sets out a clear, practical framework for mental health assessment, and it has four core pillars. The first is to ensure that every pregnant woman has a structured, evidence based and compassionate mental health assessment, while mental health check ins must continue after the birth of a baby two.

The evidence shows that outcomes are better when interventions happen sooner. So that's why I focus my bill on improving support in the antenatal period first. This assessment would form part of the routine antenatal care. It's not an extra. It would use validated tools such as the Foodie Questions or the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale adapted for pregnancy, and it would be rooted in nice guidance, though this may need updating to ensure that better practice is embedded. Crucially, it would be delivered through trauma informed conversations, not tick box exercises, where staff would be trained to create a safe space for disclosure.

Recognising that women may have histories of trauma that affect their mental health during pregnancy, or may have no history of trauma or mental illness at all. The second pillar of the bill is to improve training and supervision for all professionals involved in maternity care GPS, midwives, obstetricians, health visitors and community mental health practitioners all need the knowledge and confidence to ask the right questions, to do so compassionately and to recognise on something isn't right. This bill calls for a national training standard, endorsed by nice and the Royal Colleges, and delivered across NHS trusts and integrated care boards.

It should include regular clinical supervision, so staff are supported to ask questions and make decisions safely. And importantly, this training must equip professionals to recognise and respond to the specific needs of women from diverse backgrounds. Understanding cultural differences in how mental health is expressed and experienced, and addressing the stigma and the barriers that prevent some women from seeking help. Third, this bill sets out the need for clear referral pathways because while midwives, GPS and others involved in routine maternity care should be equipped and able to identify mental health risks, they shouldn't also be delivering a specialist care when it's needed.

So the clear referral pathways into mental health services the specialist services are vital. The Maternal Mental Health Alliance recommends that a specialist perinatal mental health midwife is embedded in every maternity service to ensure that those risks are identified and the referrals made effectively, and that appropriate support will then be different for every woman. But one important option is the NHS Talking Therapies programme, which I know the government is committed to and I've seen in my own constituency of Aylesbury how helpful this can be for women and I would urge the NHS Talking Therapies services to consider women in the perinatal period as a priority group for support.

There are also fantastic voluntary services out there in communities across the country, such as pandas, and many of those under the umbrella of the Hearts and Minds partnership. And yet many women are not made aware of them through their routine antenatal care, and they should be. Fourth, and finally, this bill calls for clear accountability to ensure effective delivery of perinatal mental health assessments. NHS England and Integrated Care Boards would be responsible for ensuring that local maternity systems introduced the single standardised assessment process, but then also, crucially, capture the data through the Maternity Services data set, allowing the outcomes to be tracked.

And there must also be improved oversight of these services from the Care Quality Commission as part of its maternity inspections. Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope the aims of my bill are clear, and I hope that the government and colleagues in this House will look upon them favourably. I know resources are tight across the NHS, and I know there are particularly acute challenges in many of our mental health and maternity services, including the national shortage of midwives currently. But I also know how transformative the relatively modest measures in this bill could be for the women at the heart of the bill and for our society.

It could have made a difference for safety, I believe, and it still could make a difference for the many women who are struggling with their mental health now, or will do in future. Because ultimately, this bill is about even more than mental health care for women. It's about the kind of country that we want to be. Because when parents are mentally well, they thrive, their children thrive, and our communities become places not fear and insecurity, but of hope and opportunity. That's the kind of country that we want to be.

And improved perinatal mental health care is such an important part of it. Madam Deputy Speaker, I commend this bill to the House.

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The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the Bill. As many of their bring in the Bill. As many of their opinions say, I. The country know. The ayes have it, the ayes have it.

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The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Who will prepare and bringing the bill? Paulette Hamilton Sojan Joseph.

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Paulette Hamilton Sojan Joseph. Doctor. Danny Chambers Liz Twist Sarah Hall Maya Ellis Jen Craft Sarah Hall Maya Ellis Jen Craft Michelle Welsh Anna Sabine Lee Pitcher. Doctor Simon Opher and myself. Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Well Well done.

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Well done. Perinatal mental.

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Health assessments bill. of.

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October, Friday the 31st of

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October, Friday the 31st of October. Right. I'll give the. Front benches. A moment to shuffle over before we go on to. we go on to.

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The next set of business.

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The next set of business. proceed. To read the orders of the day. Renters' Rights Bill with

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Renters' Rights Bill with consideration of Lords message. You say now?

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You say now? Now we begin with the government motion to agree. amendments.

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amendments. 19 B, 19. C and 19 D, with which the. Government's motion.

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Government's motion. To agree. amendments. 39 B and 39 C, I. Call the Minister to. Move.

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Move. The motion to agree with the Lords in their amendments 19. B 93
14:06
Matthew Pennycook Portrait Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)
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and 19 D. Minister Matthew. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Today is.

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A momentous day. That is because, subject to agreement from this House, the Renters' rights Bill will have completed. All its stages.

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And will therefore shortly become law. This House last legislated to law. This House last legislated to fundamentally alter the relationship between landlords and tenants in 1988. I was just six years old.

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1988. I was just six years old. In the decade since. England's private rented sector has changed beyond all recognition. has changed beyond all recognition. It now House is not just the young and the mobile, but many older people and families with children for whom greater security and for whom greater security and certainty is essential to a flourishing life. The need to overhaul the regulation of the overhaul the regulation of the private rented sector, and in so doing, level decisively. The playing field between landlord and tenant is pressing.

That's why we introduced the bill within months of taking office. We promised that we would succeed where the previous Conservative government had failed, by legislating to transform the experience of private renting. I'm experience of private renting. I'm delighted that we are now within touching distance of seeing the bill become law. Before I turn to the become law. Before I turn to the final amendments agreed to in the other place, I want to put on record once again my profound thanks to Baroness Taylor for so ably guiding Baroness Taylor for so ably guiding the Bill through its House of Lords stages.

Deputy Speaker, I made clear

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stages. Deputy Speaker, I made clear when we considered Lords I will give way briefly. I did you. Greenway, and I too welcome the renter's bill becoming law. I personally wished it was also regulating rent levels. But my question is, how quickly will it become law to protect people, many of whom over the last year, while this bill has been wending its way through Parliament, have faced the appalling situation of no fault eviction. Many have lost their properties as a result of it, whereas they would have been protected had the bill become law more quickly.

Can he give me some idea that I can give some comfort to my constituents who are facing no fault eviction, how quickly they will get protection, and will there be any retrospective element to it?

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I thank the right Honourable gentleman for that point. We do want to provide both renters and landlords with certainty about how landlords with certainty about how the new system will be implemented. I'll say a bit more on that in the course of my remarks. And I was course of my remarks. And I was saying, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm going to make a bit more progress if I can. As I made clear and Deputy I can. As I made clear and Deputy Speaker, when we considered Lords amendments to the bill on the 8th of September, while the government was not prepared to accept amendments not prepared to accept amendments that would undermine the core principles of the bill, we were more than willing to make sensible changes in response to legitimate concerns raised.

The changes we are proposing today are firmly within the spirit of that commitment. I'm delighted that we were able to reach delighted that we were able to reach agreement with the Liberal Democrat frontbench and Lord Young of Cookham, and I thank all those noble Lords involved for their willingness Lords involved for their willingness to work collaboratively to strengthen the Bill. Let me briefly set out the purpose and effect of the amendments in question, the amendments in question, beginning with those that relate to shared owners. Lords amendments 19 B, 19 C and 19 D exempt shared owners from the 12 month no relet period in respect of new mandatory possession ground one day that possession ground one day that allows a landlord to evict a tenant because they intend to sell their property.

The exemption is subject property. The exemption is subject to meeting set criteria to ensure that shared owners have made a genuine attempt to sell their property. The amendments in question property. The amendments in question also include a delegated power to remove the exemption in the future. For example, once the building

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safety programme has been completed. I will give way briefly and then. Can I thank the. Minister and.

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Minister and. Welcome what's been put forward over the last period of time. And Mike and I have had more and more of these issues coming to our attention, where tenants have the final turn up and affordable accommodation for the close to their work or close to their education for their schools. I know this legislation applies to England and Wales only, and I understand that. But the minister is a good minister But the minister is a good minister and he always shares the information and the legislation put forward.

and the legislation put forward. With with the Regional Assembly and Makest Northern Ireland Assembly, would the Minister get and do me a would the Minister get and do me a favour and do the House or favour of sharing the legislation with the Northern Assembly to ensure the good

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things that are in this can become a good thing for us in Northern Ireland as well. Thank you. I thank the honourable gentleman for that intervention. The Northern Ireland Assembly can access this legislation online, but I will certainly continue to have conversations with ministers in all conversations with ministers in all of the devolved administrations as to what lessons we can learn about from what we have done with this from what we have done with this bill and that they can take from it.

Absolutely. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was saying that I commend Lord Young of Cookham once again for of Cookham once again for championing the interests of shared owners affected by the building safety crisis and thanking for tabling his three amendments in tabling his three amendments in lieu. As I made clear when we consider Lords amendments last month, the government recognised the plight of shared owners living in buildings that require remediation. Many are facing unaffordable costs, often with no viable exit route other than a distressed sale.

We also appreciate that it is often harder to secure a purchaser for a shared ownership property, and that the sales of shared ownership flats are more likely to fall through due to the additional constraints involved. As such, we've always accepted that the 12 month no relet period would have placed many shared owners in an extremely challenging position. The reason that the government did not feel able to accept Lord Young's original Lords Amendment 19 was that it could undermine protections for the small subset of tenants who happened to rent a sublet home from a shared owner.

I'm therefore pleased to report to the House today that the amendments in lieu before us deliver the core aims of that original amendment, whilst also ensuring three key safeguards are in place to protect tenants. These safeguards are as follows. First, there is a requirement for the shared owner to have informed the assured sub tenant in writing at the outset of the tenancy about the exemption and its possible use. This will ensure tenants are aware of the particular circumstances of the tenancy they are entering into, and can make an informed choice as to whether they wish to enter into a tenancy agreement with the shared owner in question.

Second, shared owners must have informed their provider of their intention to sell before obtaining possession of the property from the tenant. This is an essential first step all shared owners must undertake in order to begin the process of selling their property, and I'm satisfied that it is a proportionate requirement evidence that a shared owner is genuinely intending to sell their home. Third, a valuation must be undertaken on the property by a member of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, or the shared owner must have advertised the property for sale.

This can be done at any point before a property is relit. Recognising the need for flexibility in how shared owners will approach a sale, taken together with the protections that are already in place as a result of registered providers having to authorise subletting requests. Having oversight of what rent levels can be charged, I'm satisfied that these safeguards will reduce, if not eliminate entirely, the risk that an exemption from the 12 month no relet period might otherwise have posed. Turning next, Madam Deputy Speaker to Lords amendments 39 B and 39 C, these will introduce a statutory requirement for annual reporting on the extent to which service family accommodation meets the Decent Homes

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Standard. I will give way. I'm very grateful to the Minister for giving way, and I would like to thank him for listening to Liberal thank him for listening to Liberal Democrat colleagues who have made these points, as I have, along with the spokesperson on previous occasions. It's very good that those occasions. It's very good that those living in military service accommodation will now have the opportunity to access the Decent Homes Standard. I wonder if the Minister could give me the assurance that he will work with ministerial colleagues in the Ministry of Defence to ensure that all those Defence to ensure that all those service families are aware of the decent home standards and the standards to which they can hold their accommodation providers, in their accommodation providers, in order that they can live in better homes.

In my constituency of Bicester and Woodstock and across the country.

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the country. I thank the honourable gentleman for that question. We have ongoing dialogue with ministerial colleagues dialogue with ministerial colleagues in the Ministry of Defence about this issue. And if you'll allow me, I'll elaborate on how we think these I'll elaborate on how we think these amendments will work in practice and how they interact with what the Ministry of Defence is itself doing. Ministry of Defence is itself doing. Can I firstly, though, thank once again Baroness Grinder, Baroness Thornhill and the honourable members Thornhill and the honourable members for Taunton and Wellington and North Shropshire for their continued support and advocacy for service personnel and their families.

The personnel and their families. The government has been clear throughout the passage of the Bill that our Armed forces, Armed Service personnel and their families must live in safe and decent homes. We remain determined to improve the standard of service family accommodation across the entire defence estate. Alongside the commitment to drive up standards through a record investment of £1.5 billion in service family accommodation over the next five years. The government will also soon publish a defence Housing strategy, setting out clear renewal standards and further steps to improve the lives of those who serve our country.

And that is a standard that will be published able that for service families to see, to judge against and will interact with this new statutory duty. Because, as I outlined in the previous debate on Lords amendments, the government acknowledges the need for greater transparency and accountability to ensure the commitments we have made are honoured. The amendments in lieu from the government before us will place the commitments I made to this House last month on a statutory basis. Alongside the wider steps I've already set out, the government believes this will help ensure service personnel and their families have the quality of homes they deserve.

The amendments also include a delegated power allowing the housing quality standards that SFA is assessed against to be updated when the current version of the Decent Homes Standard is no longer considered appropriate, for example, when it has been replaced by a new modernised standard. The Liberal Democrats have indicated their support for these amendments. Madam Deputy Speaker and I hope honourable members will join me in supporting them today. To conclude, my Deputy Speaker, I urge the House to support the amendments put forward by the

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other place, and I very much look forward to the remainder of the debate. I beg to move. The question is, is House agrees

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The question is, is House agrees with the. Lords in their amendments. 19 B. 19 C and 19 D. I call the shadow

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19 C and 19 D. I call the shadow Secretary, Sir James James Cleverly. Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you. We are considering. Today the Lords amendments in

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Today the Lords amendments in lieu to the Renters' Rights Bill, and I begin by recognising the work
14:15
James Cleverly Portrait Rt Hon Sir James Cleverly MP (Braintree, Conservative)
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and I begin by recognising the work that has taken place in both houses to try to improve this legislation, and by thanking their Lordships for the constructive way in which they have approached this endeavour. On the amendments themselves, on shared ownership leaseholders. This issue was rightly championed in the Lords by my Noble friend Lord Young of Crook of Cookham, and I pay tribute to him for his persistence on this issue. He made a fair and compelling case for shared owners who, through no fault of their own, may be unable to sell their share and should not be penalised for relenting in those circumstances, and the government's acceptance of that principle, though through a modified amendment, is, I think, a sensible and pragmatic improvement, and therefore we will support it on the decent home standards and the service family accommodation estate.

The government placed a duty on the Secretary of State to report on the conditions of service, family accommodation and provide independent oversight. Our Armed forces and their families deserve and need decent, well maintained homes and greater transparency will, we believe, strengthen the confidence of those service families in the system. So we support this improvement and hope that the government will look at our policy to create and Armed Forces Housing Association that would oversee these changes and address the declining recruitment and retention rates that sadly, we have seen under this government.

Madam Deputy Speaker, while we support these improvements, the bill in its current form will in some areas be, I fear, counterproductive and drive landlords from the market as well as putting up rents for tenants. Labour's own impact assessment for this Bill supports this concern and I quote landlords can pass through some, but not all, of their cost increases to their tenants in the form of higher rent due to new costs. Under the bill. All tenancies will continue until either the tenant gives notice or the landlord obtains a court order for possession on specific grounds.

Now the government has committed to ending section 21 evictions, but they must also ensure that court reform matches so that the system works for both tenants and responsible landlords. And we need clarity about when and how these changes will be implemented. Implemented because, Madam Deputy Speaker, uncertainty helps no one. Local councils must have the means to enforce the new rules effectively, and the government should set out a clear and workable plan. To that end. The amendments. The amendments before us represent a sensible set of adjustments that make this bill, I would say, slightly more workable.

The sufficient change so sufficient challenges remain in how it will operate in practice. We recognise the value of the scrutiny that has taken place in both houses, and the constructive way that many of the concerns have been addressed, but the uncertainty in this sector is seeing landlords leave the market at

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alarming rate. I will give way. Who knows? I've got a great deal of time for him as a person, but he of time for him as a person, but he must reflect that all of his speeches, talking about the rights of the landlord and absolutely nothing on the rights of the tenants. Now, in my own tenants. Now, in my own constituency, there are 600 children in temporary accommodation, in large part driven out of their private rented accommodation. Because the no rented accommodation.

Because the no fault evictions does have anything to say about the rights of tenants.

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to say about the rights of tenants. I am Deputy Speaker. I can only assume that he's been asleep and through the last couple of through the last couple of paragraphs that I read out where I specifically spoke about the rights of tenants in the military estate, for example. So I reject his characterisation of our position. characterisation of our position. But the simple fact is tenants rights are all well and good. But if accommodation for those tenants does not exist, they are no better off.

And what we have seen an estimated 18% of new homes for sale, which were previously in the private rental market estate and in London rental market estate and in London that figure is 29% and a reduction in the private rented sector. Market in the private rented sector. Market harms not helps people seeking to rent in the private sector, and I know the benches opposite will say, oh well, we're going to deliver 1.5 million new houses. No one, no one.

I doubt even the own front bench actually believes they have any chance of delivering that figure at all. And certainly the OBR doesn't believe they have any credible chance of doing this. So the housing and rental situation is likely to get worse. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the opposition, for the reasons that I have set out in my speech, I can confirm that we will support Lords amendments in lieu. We urge the government to implement them professionally and swiftly, and focusing, and focus on delivering a fair and effective system for tenants and for the landlords that provide accommodation to those tenants, and also the wider housing market.

And whilst I've said there are still, we fear, a number of flaws with this bill and it does not do enough to protect renters or ensure a stable rental market, and has the risk of reducing supply and perversely, pushing up rents. Which is why, having committed to not oppose the amendments in lieu, we

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will be holding this governments to bill.

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Kevin Bonavia. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
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Kevin Bonavia Portrait Kevin Bonavia MP (Stevenage, Labour)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I fully support my honourable friend the Minister's motions today friend the Minister's motions today in regard to Lords Amendments 19 and 39. I want to thank thank you for all his work he's done. And I also want to pay tribute to my right honourable friend the member for Ashton-under-Lyne for piloting this. Momentous legislation through the House. And if I may, I would also like to add my own thanks to the noble Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, who has been a doughty champion in

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the other place, and of course, as a doughty champion in my own constituency. Of Stevenage.

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Of Stevenage. We have. 7000 households that rent privately, they fear. That rent privately, they fear. That coming, their tenancies coming to an end for no good reason. Only last.

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end for no good reason. Only last. Weekend I was knocking on doors. In our ward of Roebuck and a

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In our ward of Roebuck and a young mother opened the door and I noticed that next to the front door was a window that was broken and it

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was a window that was broken and it was patched up with a wooden board. And I said, oh, is this the council? No. No, I rent privately and he's a

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No, I rent privately and he's a good landlord. OK. So he's going to fix that window. Oh no, no, no. He's.

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He's. Just kidding me. I'm a bit. ask. That. You know, he's going to throw me

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You know, he's going to throw me out. So that's. What a good landlord is. Assumed to be. So that this has. To come to an

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So that this has. To come to an end. Renters like that young mother have been waiting 40 years for this today. Should this House agree, this bill will go for Royal Assent and that fear will come to an end. So I support this motion and I thank the Minister again.

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Minister again. We have a Democrat. Spokesperson, Gideon Amos. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to start.

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By looking forward. To. Parliament finally. Passing legislation. That will bring long overdue.

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Protections to tenants. We don't. Have and conservatives. Say, believe. That tenants rights. Are all well and good. They are
14:23
Gideon Amos Portrait Gideon Amos MP (Taunton and Wellington, Liberal Democrat)
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Are all well and good. They are not all well and good. No fault evictions are not all well and good, and the failure to outlaw those by the previous government is unacceptable. And it's a good thing

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that today this legislation will change that finally change that. Liberal Democrats stood on. A.

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A. Manifesto and campaigned for ending no fault evictions of tenants, longer and more stable tenants, longer and more stable tenancies, Register of landlords and decent House for our forces families. And now, in this Bill.

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families. And now, in this Bill. accommodation. Thanks to the government agreeing to our proposal, all of these things are to become law for too long, renters across the board have had a bad deal this time to redress that balance. After years of the Conservative government failing to deliver both on no fault evictions and on decent homes for our military families, I therefore warmly welcome the government's amendments 39, which give effect to making service family accommodation subject to the Decent Homes Standard.

I'm glad that Decent Homes Standard. I'm glad that ministers listened to our Liberal Democrat calls to do so and to service families. I'd also like to service families. I'd also like to thank the Minister for his pragmatic, pragmatically doing the pragmatic, pragmatically doing the hard yards in negotiating on this bill. And I'd also like to pay tribute to my Noble friends, Baronesses Granda and Thornhill in Baronesses Granda and Thornhill in the other place for the work they have done to secure this important change, the state of housing they've change, the state of housing they've had to endure.

It's been a disgrace. The Defence Select Committee heard of dire conditions, pest infestations, black mould, damp, flooding, unreliable heating and hot water in the winter. Personally, I've heard similar stories and seen photographs from constituents. I've been supporting service families who are forced to live in damp, mouldy accommodation, declared unfit for human habitation. Our soldiers, sailors, air force, Royal Marines like those who served in 40 Commando, Naughton Manor Camp and my constituency, the closure of which by the conservatives I began a campaign against in 2017.

They sacrifice huge amounts for our country and they deserve the very, at the very least, a decent home for them and their family. And this is not an isolated issue. Madam Deputy Speaker, research we obtained earlier this year found that on VE day alone, more than 400 service families were forced to apply for emergency repairs while the country celebrated our veterans too many forces, families were struggling with housing that fell far short of the standards we rightly expect elsewhere. There. New Decent Homes Standard a year after my Honourable friend member for North Shropshire tried and failed to get the Conservative government to deliver it, and 18 years after some in Campbell began the Lib Dems campaign for decent homes.

Our military is a matter of fairness, which I hope will be agreed across the House as a whole, but as a first, great as a great first step and one. I'm proud the Liberal Democrats have had a hand in securing decent houses. Service families should not just be reported on, but they need to be acted upon. Defence ministers have assured the House that this these housing standards are on an upward trajectory, and we will hold government to account on that. And can I ask the Minister to give any assurances he can, that the resources will be put in place to ensure that that happens? Nobody wants the an annual report that leads to no progress.

And can we also ask the Minister to ensure that service family accommodation meets the commitments made in defence infrastructure organisations consumer charter, most notably requirements to complete urgent repairs within a timeline consistent with Awaab's Law. And that. And can ministers also give that assurance that would ensure that Lords Amendment 39 strengthens a bill already delivered that already delivers vital reforms to renters and rightly includes protections for service families, delivers a broader transformation renters' rights ending no fault evictions, creating more secure tenancies and raising standards across the private rented sector.

Amendment 19 would also allow shared owners to relax if a sale fell through, and as such, we also support that amendment. And of course, we must not lose sight of the bigger picture. The need to build a new generation of council and social rent homes 150,000 per year this week shows that determination, persistence and principle can deliver real change. Our forces families will now have a statutory protection for their homes. Tenants across the country will gain greater rights. A step and every step like this brings us closer to the fairer housing system we all want to see.

I congratulate all those who campaigned for this change, particularly forces. Families have contacted me. More secure homes is what private renters

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need and decent homes is the least our military deserve. Yeah. Dolly Moore.

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Dolly Moore. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. And can we be really clear. As a House that.

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As a House that. This bill, the Renters' rights bill, is the biggest uplift to Renters' rights in a generation? It will make.

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will make. A. Huge difference. For so many in my constituency of Hastings and Rye. But before I come on to the amendment. In question, could I place on record my thanks to

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could I place on record my thanks to this. Bill through Parliament. And also my honourable friend,
14:29
Helena Dollimore Portrait Helena Dollimore MP (Hastings and Rye, Labour )
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And also my honourable friend, the Right Honourable Member for Ashton-under-Lyne and the remarks that she made as a champion of

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that she made as a champion of renters and a champion of social housing in. This country. You're here. But I also, Madam.

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But I also, Madam. Deputy Speaker, want to place. bill. Has. Taken so.

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Taken so. Long to pass through Parliament. It's an absolute disgrace that this bill has been.

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bill has been. Slowed down. Bogged down in amendments in the other place that

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amendments in the other place that have delayed. These vital rights. Coming to my. Constituents. I had a look at the number of

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I had a look at the number of opposition. Parties. In the other.

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Place, over 450 amendments. having.

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having. To sit a very long time to get this. Bill through. And in that time, my constituents. Have been stuck.

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Have been stuck. In damp, mouldy housing. My constituents have been subject to section 21. Evictions.

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Evictions. And many children. In. Hastings are growing. Up in temporary accommodation

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because of the delays to this legislation. From the other place and the. Parties opposite, whose lords in

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Parties opposite, whose lords in the other place have placed. So many. Amendments, should be ashamed. For slowing down that

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legislation. We passed in. This House. The Third Reading of the Renters' rights bill in. January.

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January. Ten months later, my constituents in Hastings and Rye are. Still waiting for. This.

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This. To become law, and. The vital. Rights and protections that are in that bill. And it's not just.

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And it's not just. Them waiting, it's. The 11. Million private renters up and

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Million private renters up and legislation. It makes. A huge difference to their. Lives, and we.

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Are very proud to support it. But in the ten months. That we've been waiting since the

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That we've been waiting since the House here passed the Third Reading. To many people in my. Constituency have been stuck in

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damp, mouldy, privately rented housing, unable to have the rights. They need, unable to speak.

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Up about poor quality accommodation because of the lack of rights they have, because they are

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worried about being evicted under a section 21 eviction. So it is absolutely. Right that.

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Right that. extends. Those vital rights to. Private tenants to speak up when

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Private tenants to speak up when accommodation. constituency. Of Hastings and Rye, there have

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Of Hastings and Rye, there have been hundreds of section 21 evictions. Notices issued. And many.

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Of those people have fallen onto the homeless register and gone to the Council for Housing Help in that time. Indeed.

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My council. Tell me that 30% of people currently in temporary accommodation currently in temporary accommodation are the result of section 21 evictions. So shameful that in the time this bill has taken that has

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time this bill has taken that has been happening. Amendment 19. Refers to social housing, and. I think. It.

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It. Is. Absolutely vital that we make sure that social tenants, as well.

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sure that social tenants, as well. As private tenants, get access to good quality repairs, good quality accommodations and do not see delays

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accommodations and do not see delays to the repairs that they ask for. And it's. Very important. That. Just as we ask. Private landlords

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to do. More to ensure that their tenants are. In. Good quality accommodation. We also.

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Continue to ask housing associations to step. Up. And ensure. That they are not. Leaving people in poor quality

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accommodation. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was. Recently. Visiting a new. Social housing development in my.

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Social housing development in my. Constituency home, Hurst Saint Mary. Where many social.

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Where many social. Homes have been built that are 100% social. Rent. And it. Was amazing to speak. To.

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To. come. From the homeless register into

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From the homeless register into their. Own head and. 100% social rent. We need. More developments like that. I

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More developments like that. I really. Pleased with the government putting more money into social

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housing, because the. Gratitude that those residents. Have and the relief that they have to be having a roof over. Their.

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Their. Head for the first time certainly outweighs a lot of the opposition that we see when we come forward

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that we see when we come forward with building more homes. The amendments also refer.

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The amendments also refer. To improving the standard of accommodation for people living in which. I.

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I. Would like to fully support the government's efforts to improve the standard of accommodation that our

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armed forces are living in, and it's also vital that we do more to help veterans, because we. Know that so many.

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Know that so many. Come out. Of the forces. Only to fall homeless. And I.

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Really welcome the work that the Labour government is doing to help support veterans, help ensure they don't fall homeless. And I want to don't fall homeless. And I want to pay tribute to the work that the East Sussex Veterans Hub is doing in my constituency to support that. my constituency to support that. Madam Deputy Speaker, to conclude, my constituents cannot wait any longer for these vital protections. longer for these vital protections. They need a ban on section 21 evictions. They need rights for evictions.

They need rights for private renters to speak up against bad landlords, and they need to see these long overdue rights granted. these long overdue rights granted. And my generation particularly really need to see these rights as a generation that have been stuck in private rented accommodation for so private rented accommodation for so long. So I fully support the Renters' Rights Bill. Jeremy Corbyn.

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Renters' Rights Bill. Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will be very brief because this is a very time limited debate. I welcome the bill that is going through, although I think it does have deficiencies because it does not actually regulate the level of rent that is charged. And in my constituency, a two bedroom flat and the private rented sector would go for around £2,000 a month, which is way above the income levels that
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Jeremy Corbyn Portrait Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)
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most people can afford. And so there is a desperate need in inner city areas of this country, particularly areas of this country, particularly for rent regulation. I am pleased that we are ending no fault eviction, but I absolutely agree eviction, but I absolutely agree with the points made by the member for Stevenage and the member for Hastings about the way in which this Hastings about the way in which this bill has been so extraordinarily delayed that thousands of tenants all over the country have lost their homes, that they would be protected from losing.

Once this bill has become law. It is outrageous the become law. It is outrageous the number of people that have become either homeless or forced to move to an even more expensive place because an even more expensive place because of it. So I'd be grateful if the Minister could assure us that the no fault eviction protection will come fault eviction protection will come in immediately, that this bill receives its Royal Assent, and there will be no delay on that, because will be no delay on that, because some of us were concerned that there's been too long a delay.

The two quick points I wanted to ask the minister was this bill requires local authorities to play a much local authorities to play a much greater role in the private rented sector. They lack the resources to do it. Is there a guarantee that they will get the resources to ensure that there is proper monitoring of this bill and proper support for tenants? And in the same vein, the need for housing advice has disappeared in many parts of the country. Not the need, but the provision of housing advice.

And so this does mean support either for local authority advice bureaux or greater support for organisations like Cab to help tenants, because many tenants are simply unaware of their rights, unaware of their rights, then they can be exploited

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by unscrupulous landlords and sadly, often our. Yes, thank.

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Yes, thank. You, Madam Deputy Speaker. With the leave of the House, I'll close what has been a brief but thoughtful what has been a brief but thoughtful debate. Can I thank all honourable and right honourable members who've spoken for their contributions in the time I have available to me, the time I have available to me, I'll respond to as many of the issues I can. Let me start, though, by saying that I welcome the broad support that has been expressed from both shadow front benches for the amendments before us.

They are, in our view, reasonable, proportionate. They respond to legitimate concerns that are raised. They have the that are raised. They have the safeguards that we felt we needed in place, and we are happy that they are being incorporated into the are being incorporated into the bill. But on a couple of issues that have been raised, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Right Honourable gentleman, the Shadow Secretary of gentleman, the Shadow Secretary of State raised the issue of supply. We acknowledge that it will take time acknowledge that it will take time for the sector, including Bill, to rent providers, but also landlords of any type, to adjust to what is a
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Matthew Pennycook Portrait Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)
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of any type, to adjust to what is a significant change in regulation. But we do not believe that this legislation will have a destabilising effect on the rental market or a harmful impact on future rental supply, which it should be noted, we are taking steps to boost, not least by providing more opportunities for investment in a growing bill to rent sector. According to the English Housing Survey, the size of the private rented sector has remained broadly stable. Since 20 1314. Landlords have been aware of successive government's plans to reform the sector since 2019.

It's worth noting, and Deputy Speaker, that study from the UK Collaborative Centre for Housing Evidence, looked at whether regulation of the press over the past 25 years in the UK and internationally had affected PRS supply and they concluded that there isn't evidence to support the assertion that non-price regulation in supply. But we will, of course, continue to work with landlords and their representative associations throughout implementation. We are committed to robustly monitoring and evaluating the private rented sector reform programme and will continue, of course, to monitor trends across the peer ers, including supply of properties, to understand how the market is responding to our reforms.

The Right honourable gentleman. The member for Islington North raise the issue of rent controls. He knows that this government is opposed to introducing rent controls. As I've made clear on many previous occasions, we don't support them, including rent stabilisation measures. We believe they could make life more difficult for private renters, both in terms of incentivising landlords to increase rents routinely to a cap where they might not otherwise have done so, and in pushing many landlords out of the market, thereby making it even harder for renters to find a home they can afford.

He asked me as well about implementation, and I'm Deputy Speaker. Following Royal Assent, we will allow time for a smooth transition to the new system. Will support tenants, landlords and agents to understand and adjust to the new rules and ensure the sector has enough time to prepare. As he is aware, the provisions in the bill will ensure that the new tenancy system for the private rented sector is introduced in one stage. At that point, the new tenancy system will apply to all private tenancies.

Existing tenancies will convert to the new system and any new tenancy signed off on or after this date will be governed by the new rules. I'm glad that, as I said, that there was broad support for the amendments relating to shared owners. It's worth me saying, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the government will make provision during implementation to ensure and ensure shared owner landlords with an existing tenancy will have an opportunity to provide this information to their tenant after the bill comes into force. We want to take the time to make sure we get this right and ensure we find a solution that works for third owners.

We intend to do this using the delegated powers to make transitional provision provided by clause 147. In the bill, the Liberal Democrat spokesman asked me about various issues relating to the amendments in respect of service family accommodation, particularly investment. As I outlined in my opening speech, the Ministry of Defence have announced an additional £1.5 billion investment in SFA as part of a £7 billion commitment over the next five years to improve and modernise defence housing. This investment will unlock rapid work to tackle the poor state of forces housing, helping to support recruitment, retention and morale.

And, as I mentioned, the Defence Housing Strategy, to be published later this year, will also set out wider plans to improve the service of service family homes. It's worth me also saying, Madam Deputy Speaker, in terms of redress, redress is already available for service personnel. They already have a robust system in place to raise a complaint about the standard of their accommodation and receive remedy or reimbursement, and if not, resolve complaints can be escalated to service complaint with further powers of reimbursement, charge reduction or policy redress and ultimately to the Employment

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Tribunal in cases of potential discrimination. To conclude mandating. Speaker I will give way.

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Speaker I will give way. What are you grateful. To. The Minister for giving way? And can I just add. My agreement. With. My.

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My. Friend, the member for Hastings and Rye. bill? I served on the bill committee

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I served on the bill committee for this over a year ago. Now. And in that time, so many tenants have had those no fault evictions.

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have had those no fault evictions. Can I just encourage the minister to Move as quickly as. Possible with the implementation.

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Of this, so that I can go talk to my. Constituents and tell them how quickly their assured. Shorthold tenancies will become rolling tenancies, so they can

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rolling tenancies, so they can possible. Minister. I thank my honourable friend for that point and I will respond to it that point and I will respond to it directly as I wind up my remarks, because it is a point well made and we know that many tenants out there we know that many tenants out there want to ensure that the greater security rights and protections that this bill affords will will be in this bill affords will will be in place as soon as possible.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we promised in our manifesto to overhaul the regulation of our country's insecure and unjust private rented sector. This bill private rented sector. This bill delivers on that commitment. It will empower renters by providing them with greater security, rights and protection so that they can stay in protection so that they can stay in their homes for longer, build lives in their communities, and avoid the risk of homelessness. It will ensure that we can drive up the quality of privately rented housing so that renters have access to good quality and safe homes as a matter of course, and it will allow us to crack down on the minority of unscrupulous landlords who exploit, mistreat or discriminate against renters.

The bill will also provide tangible benefits for responsible landlords who provide high quality homes and a good service to their tenants. Not only will it improve the reputation of the sector as a whole, but it will ensure that good landlords enjoy simpler regulation and a clear and expanded possession grounds so that they can regain their properties quickly when necessary. Now, Deputy Speaker, as I've argued many times throughout the passage of the bill, the current system for private renting is broken in abolishing section 21, no fault evictions and modernising the regulation of the sector.

The provisions in this bill will improve the lives of England's 11 million private renters. It is a transformational piece of legislation and if you'll allow me a brief personal word, I take great pride in having developed and shepherded the legislation through. Madam Deputy Speaker, it would be remiss of me to conclude my remarks without thanking a number of people. I'd like to start by expressing my gratitude to all honourable and right honourable members and peers in the other place who have engaged with the Bill throughout this passage, the expertise and insight that have been brought to bear in both houses has strengthened the Bill in a number of important respects.

I'd particularly like to thank my Right honourable friend the for member Ashton-under-Lyne. She was and still remains one of the bill's biggest supporters, and was instrumental in ensuring it was introduced so quickly after the formation of the government. I'd also like to thank all those stakeholders who worked closely with the government to ensure the bill will work for the landlord and tenant alike. I cannot possibly credit them all in the time I have available, but I'd like to put on record my thanks to generation Rent Shelters, Crisis Citizens Advice and the other members of the Renters Reform Coalition, as well as the National Residential Landlords Association, the shared ownership network and property.

Mark. A final thanks. Madam Deputy Speaker, to all of the officials in my department who devoted so much time and energy to developing and progressing the bill. I'd particularly like to thank the Bill team, Aidan Hilton, James Kennedy, our lawyers and many more, as well as my private office, specifically Wil Geva and Grace Doody, who provided me with invaluable support throughout this passage. Madam Deputy Speaker, completing the final stages of the bill today is obviously only the beginning. Once the bill becomes law, we need to implement its provisions.

In doing so, we will balance the need to act quickly so that tenants can soon benefit from the new rights and protections the bill introduces, whilst also ensuring the sector has sufficient time to adjust and prepare for what is a significant change in regulation. The government understands the need for certainty and we will set out our implementation plans as soon as possible. Madam Deputy Speaker, I very much look forward, look forward to working with Honourable and Right Honourable members, as well as all

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progress. Thank you. The question is that this House agrees with the Lords in their amendments 19 B, 19 C and 19 D as amendments 19 B, 19 C and 19 D as may that appear and say I. I of the country now. I think the ayes have country now. I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. We now come to the motion to agree with the Lords in their amendments 39 B and 39 C

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in their amendments 39 B and 39 C Minister to move formally. B formally. The question. This House agrees with the.

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with the. Lords in their amendments 39 B and 39 C as many as are parents say.

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and 39 C as many as are parents say. I of the country. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. That concludes consideration of

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That concludes consideration of the Lords message relating to the renters' rights Bill, and I will give the ministers a few moments to swap over. swap over. What if everyone is in their place? In particular Mr. Anderson, who In particular Mr. Anderson, who seems to have sat on every bench in the chamber this afternoon. I come. the chamber this afternoon. I come. You. I come to motion number one. Quite. I come to motion number three on financial assistance to industry.

I call the minister to move the motion. Minister Kanishka Narayan, is this your first time at the despatch box, Minister? Not quite, but congratulations on one.
14:46
14:46
Kanishka Narayan Portrait Kanishka Narayan MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Vale of Glamorgan, Labour)
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Authorises the Secretary. Of State to undertake. To make payments by. Way of financial assistance under section. Eight of.

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Eight of. The Industrial Development Act 1982, in excess of 30 million to any successful applicant to the Life Sciences Innovative Manufacturing Fund, launched on the 30th of October 2020 for up to a cumulative total of 520 million. The life sciences sector, Madam Deputy Speaker, is a jewel in the crown of our economy, a national asset that plays a unique role in both the health and the wealth of the United Kingdom. The sector thrives jobs, investment, innovation right across the country, from cutting edge research laboratories in Cheshire to close to my heart, advanced manufacturing sites in South Wales, life sciences manufacturing is the critical link between our world class research and real world patient benefit.

It ensures the scientific breakthroughs translate into tangible improvements in care, whilst also underpinning economic growth and strengthening the resilience of our NHS. Yet, despite the UK's global leadership in many areas of life sciences manufacturing, we must acknowledge that in recent years, growth in manufacturing sites and jobs has not kept pace with the expansion of the life sciences sector as a whole. That is why the government is published as published the Life Sciences Sector Plan this summer, a comprehensive strategy to ensure growth in all parts of the sector.

The plan sets out the UK's ambition to secure more life sciences foreign direct investment than any other European economy by 2030, and to become second only to the US and China globally by 2035. Central to this ambition is boosting manufacturing through delivery of the life sciences. Innovative Manufacturing Fund, one of six headline commitments in the sector plan launched last October. The fund demonstrates this government's commitment to the continued growth of our life sciences sector, with up to 520 million of funding available to support private sector capital

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investments until 2030, I'm happy to give way. Once a Northern Ireland has a very vibrant life sciences manufacturing sector. I was working from the Minister and assurance that from the Minister and assurance that a cause of article ten of the Windsor framework, which subjects Windsor framework, which subjects Northern Ireland to EU state aid rules. Can the Minister assure us that there is no impediment arising therein which would impede the a therein which would impede the a successful applications to this fund from Northern Ireland manufacturers, from Northern Ireland manufacturers, which also can have a knock on effect in GB, because if the goods produced are transported to Northern Ireland, then they too come under the state aid rules.

So has the the state aid rules. So has the department examined that and what assurance can they give us as to the

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protection against EU state aid rules on this fund? Well. Can I thank the member for his

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Can I thank the member for his for his intervention, the talent and the ability of people in Northern. Ireland is very much at the Ireland is very much at the forefront of our minds, and we want to make sure that everything we're doing is supporting the life sciences sector is taking an whole of UK approach. I'm very happy to write to the member in particular around the particular questions he's asked around Northern Irish and eligibility as well. I might make make some progress for now.

The Life Sciences Innovative Manufacturing Fund directly supports two of the government's key missions to kickstart economic growth, and to build an NHS fit for the future. The scheme is projected to attract nearly 4 billion in private investment, creating over 7000 jobs and safeguarding more than 5000 existing needs. However, the scheme's impact is of course, not just economic. The pandemic proved that we cannot take our critical supply chain chains for granted. Supporting offshoring of life sciences manufacturing through this Life Sciences Innovative Manufacturing Fund is therefore critical to strengthening our national resilience and preparedness for future health emergencies.

This week we have announced I might make some progress for now. This week we have announced the first two grant awards through the scheme, marking a major milestone in the fund's rollout. This is unlocking substantial private investment, showcasing the UK's appeal to valuable globally mobile lifesciences manufacturers. As delivery of the scheme progresses, we expect to announce more grant winners in the coming months. Each project, supported through a grant, will further strengthen health resilience and drive economic growth across all nations and regions in

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the UK. Members are happy to give away. Give away. We're talking about taxpayers money. I'd be grateful.

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I'd be grateful. If you could let us know. What the minimum. Leverage is. So for every. Pound of taxpayers.

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Money put in, what is the minimum sector? Well, I'm very grateful for the member's point. My understanding is member's point. My understanding is these are grant capital investments that the government will be making, and I'm sure we'll be looking at the and I'm sure we'll be looking at the leverage at a whole fund level. If there are particular requirements at an individual investment level. I'm happy to write to the member on that particular point. I feel a lot of our party, I must give way to the member to.



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The third time lucky. And I thank. The Minister for giving way and I do welcome this fund. I sincerely do welcome this fund. I sincerely do, in regards to the life sciences and those companies that we have North Antrim and my own constituency and South Antrim as well. Could I
14:51
None Portrait Motion: Debate on a Motion related to Financial Assistance to Industry
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and South Antrim as well. Could I ask them as well just why these making this announcement that they can also make sure that any R&D tax credit implications that companies can apply for as well are fully supported, fully utilised and brought forward at speeds through. The companies are actually able to utilise not just this fund, but also the tax credits that comes through

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the R&D as well. Yeah, it's an area. Well, thank the member for a very important point, and I'm very happy important point, and I'm very happy to take a full look at the R&D tax credit system and how it will support the ambitions we have to support the ambitions we have to move to back our private sector partners in both R&D and then subsequent commercialisation as delivery of the particular scheme. delivery of the particular scheme. Madam speaker, progresses, we expect to announce more grant winners in the coming months.

Each project, supported through a grant, will supported through a grant, will strengthen health resilience and drive economic growth. As I said, across every nation and region of

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across every nation and region of clear. That. The life Sciences Innovative Manufacturing Fund is a strategic investment in our future. It is a investment in our future. It is a vital step in delivering the government's commitment to support the UK's life sciences sector, and the UK's life sciences sector, and to ensuring our country remains at the forefront of the sector. I will now respond to the questions that

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now respond to the questions that may be raised by Honourable friends in the debate. The question is as on the Order Paper and I call the shadow sector steak Julia Lopez.

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steak Julia Lopez. Yeah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the. Minister for. His statement. Or should I call

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His statement. Or should I call him October's cover star. For the House magazine? Madam speaker, conservatives back today's. Motion on.

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today's. Motion on. The Life. Sciences Innovative Manufacturing Fund. It's a no. Brainer because the. Fund was.

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Fund was. Established by us in government. When my right honourable friend million. manufacturing.
14:52
14:52
Julia Lopez Portrait Julia Lopez MP (Hornchurch and Upminster, Conservative)
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From 2025 to 2030.

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built on a series of smaller, highly successful. Interventions that managed to.

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Interventions that managed to. Attract £850 million of private investment for the £64 million of. Taxpayer money that we deployed.

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Taxpayer money that we deployed. The Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry called the fund a step change in ambition,

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fund a step change in ambition, something that would strengthen our manufacturing base. we. Saw during the pandemic in our

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Saw during the pandemic in our supply chains. It was good for jobs, it was good for health security, for a life sciences for Britain. So yes,

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we support this fund because we designed it. Let's be. Clear about what's actually. Happening today in the House. The

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Happening today in the House. The minister is simply uprating for inflation, the threshold. At which payments must be approved by Parliament.

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approved by Parliament. Fine. That's all very sensible. But what it's. Not is anything new.

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It is not new money. It is not Labour innovation. It is not. A sign that this government is

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A sign that this government is suddenly getting really serious about growth. And it is not the route to dealing. With. The. Crisis that is facing.

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Crisis that is facing. Life sciences. doing. But in different wrapping paper, plonking a bow.

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On it and. Calling it a. New strategy. Madam Deputy Speaker, let. Me. Tell you.

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Tell you. What I. Reckon has happened here. An edict has. Gone bouncing around Whitehall from the Treasury and number. Ten, as the November.

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Budget disaster looms. We need some growth announcements. Departments feed the comms grid.

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Feed the comms grid. We need to give confidence. To believe. That we are serious about growth.

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That we are serious about growth. what. Happened yesterday. The UK. Government, borrowing figures in. September, hits.

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September, hits. The highest. Level for the month in. Five years. This is truly. Terrifying stuff.

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This is truly. Terrifying stuff. gone. And. Ask her officials. What have we got in the cupboards.

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cupboards. To announce? Minister, we've. Got an. See that we've got a table at some point, do you want us to shove

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some point, do you want us to shove a bit of lipstick on it? And so we have the spectacle of. Ministers coming.

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Ministers coming. Out here to tell us that a. Humble statutory instrument. To up rate for. Inflation, something already.

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In the pipeline is a grand plan. It shift the dial on. Life sciences in no way at all, because it's already baked in.

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because it's already baked in. This is not a government that is serious about growth. Madam Deputy. Speaker, and. Do you want to know what actually

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Do you want to know what actually Manufacturing. Fund when Labour took office in early 2024? We used it to negotiate.

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We used it to negotiate. A. £450 million vaccine manufacturing investment by

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manufacturing investment by AstraZeneca in Speke in Liverpool. That was real. Jobs. Real regional.

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Investment, greater resilience. For our country. After that.

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AstraZeneca announced another £200 million investment in. Cambridge, a. Thousand jobs to drive that

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investment in growth. We also competitive. Business tax regimes through policies. Like full expensing. And

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policies. Like full expensing. And then the general election happened. And our new Chancellor, in her. Infinite wisdom. Put a pause.

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Put a pause. On that investment, supposedly to get better. Value. For money and to. Fill the fantasy.

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Fill the fantasy. £22 billion black hole in the public finances. And we all know what happened next. Madam Deputy Speaker, AstraZeneca

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Madam Deputy Speaker, AstraZeneca pulled the investment. That's £450 pulled the investment. That's £450 million. Despite issuing private warnings to the. Government that they needed certainty for business my.

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my. Word for it. When announcing. Speeds culling. AstraZeneca said the. Timing and the. Reduction of.

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Timing and the. Reduction of. The final offer compared. To the. Previous government's proposal

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was critical to losing that. £450 million investment. What else happened since Labour took office? Well.

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office? Well. AstraZeneca paused the £200 million Cambridge investment. We

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million Cambridge investment. We lost Merck's. £1 billion King's. Cross R&D hub. It got. Cancelled after. Eight years.

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In development. That's £1 billion. And the Secretary of State. Had nothing to say about it.

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Had nothing to say about it. Diddly squat. Eli Lilly has put. Its £279 million research.

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Its £279 million research. Incubator in. London on hold. Sanofi has said it will not consider. Any substantial investment.

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Any substantial investment. In UK R&D under current conditions. In fact, industry.

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Has warned that the UK is. Becoming uninhabitable for the life sciences. So can. I.

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I. Ask the Minister. Does he. Know how many meetings. The Secretary of State has had

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with life sciences. Companies in her past month? Because I understand. The answer. Is very. Very few.

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What has she been doing to rally colleagues across. Government and make clear to The Chancellor and the Health Secretary

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Chancellor and the Health Secretary and the Prime Minister the scale of peril. Because it is. Not at all clear. To me. And I've.

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Been looking at her statements and I can't find anything. Now, the fund which we support. Is a capital manufacturing fund. It helps de-risk certain projects

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It helps de-risk certain projects and it. Reduces borrowing. For those companies. fundamental. Problem. Which is the commercial.

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Which is the commercial. Environment for medicines in. The UK. And we all know Labour has. Made the commercial. Environment worse in.

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Environment worse in. The many ways. Like National Insurance rises and. Other tax increases. It's also made successful.

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People not want. To base themselves here. But that. Need.

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Need. Fixing here. Drug pricing and the v peg. Rebate, which risks becoming a tax on innovation. But Labour's.

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tax on innovation. But Labour's. Screwed the public finances. So badly that they've got nowhere to go on these issues. Not least because the.

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because the. NHS has had to spend a large. Chunk of the money that it's taken from our constituents. Has taken. Lots of money.

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Lots of money. From our constituents. And we're telling us. That. It's going to make a big difference. It's telling us it's

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difference. It's telling us it's going to make this big difference. To the NHS, and. It's gone. On wage deals in.

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It's gone. On wage deals in. rises. So despite what Labour. Likes to say about tough choices made to improve the NHS, I'd like.

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The honourable. Gentleman to ask his constituents whether they're. Really seeing. That tangible difference. It's taken a taken a hell.

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taken a taken a hell. Of a lot of money from everybody. And it's not working. Now, normally I'd be very glad for the

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normally I'd be very glad for the ability of the NHS to use its collective bargaining power to. Keep. Drug prices low. life.

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life. Sciences companies will. Not be bringing new medicines to. Market in our country. That means my constituents.

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my constituents. cutting. Edge treatments. That means pain and heartache. It means ill. Health, and it means.

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Health, and it means. That the life sciences industry. That served us so well. Is ebbing away. And taking the

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them. This is. A crisis. So I must ask the minister, can this fund succeed. When the wider tax environment

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When the wider tax environment stands as it is? The issue of medicine. Pricing is fast coming to a head as President.

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Trump. Plays hardball on drug costs. The US administration. prices.

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And it's using them as a bargaining tool. Against the threat of tariffs. Now, this government has boasted of its special relationship and.

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its special relationship and. We've had endless excruciating shots of the Prime Minister prostrating himself before the

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president. Can the can the. Minister tell. Us how that. Benefit to. How that relationship is.

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How that relationship is. sciences? Because I. Just. Can't see it for myself. And finally, can. The minister tell us, is the

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The minister tell us, is the Secretary of State aware. That it looks like. HMRC has decided that companies

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providing medicines for clinical trials or compassionate. Use under the Early Access to Medicines scheme.

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Should now be billed that that's a tax. On medicines that. Are being provided for free. Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Madam Deputy Speaker. Apparently one company has already received a bill. And. More is on their way for others. And this could affect trials.

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And this could affect trials. It could affect people's. Access to medicine. So can the Minister please commit to looking into this urgently as Labour scrambles around for more revenue? And can he ask HMRC to publish guidance confirming that the Early Access to Medicines scheme in fact falls outside the VAT deemed supply rules? To conclude, can the Minister tell us how much of the £520 million has actually been spent to date? What is the current investment pipeline, and how does it compare to the one that the Minister inherited? Can the Minister update the House on the current state of negotiations between industry and government on the scheme and medicine pricing, and also with the US on tariffs? What conversation, if he knows, has the Secretary of State had personally with the Health Secretary and Chancellor on these issues? Because this is a extremely perilous situation for our life sciences firms and for patients access to new drugs.

Madam speaker, Britain's life sciences sector is worth over £100 billion to our economy and it supports around 300,000 jobs. It is massive. It is one of our defining national strengths, a source of innovation, prosperity and national pride. And of course, it is the key to better health for our constituents and people across the world. The life sciences innovator Innovative Manufacturing Fund remains a Conservative achievement. But unless this government acts swiftly to restore competitiveness and rebuild investor confidence, we risk losing our place at the forefront of global life sciences.

And I'm afraid, Madam Deputy Speaker, no amount of repackaging, repackaging or recycling announcements are going to change that. I tip for members if the word

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you or your is in your speech, just. Cross it out. You are speaking through the Chair and I can't repeat

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through the Chair and I can't repeat myself day in, day out. Select Committee Chair. Chairman. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And it is a great pleasure to speak to you on this occasion. Ha ha ha ha ha.

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Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha! And also to welcome the ambition behind the life Sciences ambition behind the life Sciences Innovation Manufacturing Fund. And indeed, this government's positive indeed, this government's positive support for life sciences, and at which the belief that government can which the belief that government can act to support industry in general. And it is not simply a matter of And it is not simply a matter of getting out of the way, and that is in sharp contrast with the last Conservative government's approach Conservative government's approach to industry, or rather, to allowing the gentle decline and industrialisation of our nation.

Although, to be fair, the series of Conservative governments did chop Conservative governments did chop and change their approach to industrial strategy so often it was difficult to know exactly where they difficult to know exactly where they did stand on this. Unlike them, Labour is committed to the life Labour is committed to the life sciences sector. Labour published its plan for Life sciences in opposition, including ten year funding commitments for key research bodies aimed at putting an end to the short termism that undermines economic growth and scientific success.

And now in government, I welcome Labour's commitment to the life sciences Sector plan, developed in close coordination with the government's ten year health plan, which aims to support cutting edge research, turning it into real world results, new treatments, faster diagnoses and more lives saved. So it's about making sure breakthroughs happen here in this country, creating jobs, improving lives in every part of the country, and driving growth. And as the as the minister said, the life sciences are a strength of the of our country.

They're often described as a jewel in the crown of the British economy. And we all know that success in life sciences leads to positive wide rate reaching benefits across the country for the economy and our health. It's an incredibly exciting time to be

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part of life sciences. So all good. We. I'm very grateful to the member for giving way. You've mentioned the relevance and the benefit to the whole of the United Kingdom from this sector. Would you honourable member for that intervention, which actually sort of pre-empts something that will it be saying in in a few minutes time. But saying in in a few minutes time. But yes, she is absolutely right. Northern Ireland has a an important role to play already plays an role to play already plays an important role in the life sciences sector and life sciences manufacturing, and has a important manufacturing, and has a important role to play in the future.

And it is an exciting time to be involved in life sciences. And I often think that if I was a young engineer now my studied electrical engineering, I would be really fascinated by the life sciences and particularly, for life sciences and particularly, for example, synthetic biology, which offers so many opportunities and offers so many opportunities and potential areas for growth and for wellbeing. And in in so many different it's enabling technology across so many different sectors. And in my own constituency of Newcastle upon Tyne, Central and West in Newcastle, Life Sciences contributes £1.7 billion and employs over 8000 people across more than 200 companies were home to the National Innovation Centre for ageing, Newcastle and Helix and the biosphere.

So our city is one star in a constellation of excellent life. Science clusters across the north of England. So I really welcome the ambition of the of this innovation manufacturing fund. I do want to ask the Minister for more more clarity or response in three particular areas. Now, the first is in regard to the size of the fund in the face of increased competition. And as the Shadow Minister described, though in less sensationalist terms, we are seeing some.

Reduction in investment in the UK is £520 million, enough to ensure that the UK is an attractive prospect to international and mobile businesses. By contrast, a manufacturing plant such as Moderna has recently opened vaccine centre in Oxfordshire might cost in the region of 150 to 200 million. So is this fund the right size? Secondly, we have in my in the Select Committee, we recently held an A one off session into life sciences investment.

And it was of such interest that we decided to hold another one off the session next week into the same subject, because we heard evidence from the farmer sector, significant support for the life sciences sector plan, significant support for the government's approach. But I think it's fair to say that whilst NHS pricing was not the only. Factor that the farmer said to us, NHS pricing was not the only factor in investment decisions. It was and is an a significant one and we have heard that we heard evidence that the UK spends less proportionately on medicines than other comparable countries, and that was reducing the pull through for innovative medicines.

Now, clearly it is a difficult decision to spend more on medicines means spending less and elsewhere in our NHS. But could so could the Minister tell me whether he sees this manufacturing fund as in some way support for investment decisions in the absence of progress on the NHS pricing discussions? And could he also tell me whether her, the Secretary of State for science is taking part in discussions between the Health secretary and the pharma sector with regard to NHS pricing, and which I understand that discussions are ongoing.

Perhaps I can see his ministerial colleague conferring with him. So perhaps you can confirm to me that those

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discussions are ongoing. So yes. I'm grateful to the Right honourable lady for giving way in honourable lady for giving way in that point when they had their one off session on investment in life sciences, did the committee unearth the reasons why Sanofi, Eli Lilly

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the reasons why Sanofi, Eli Lilly and Merck have recently chosen to disinvest in life sciences in the UK. OK.

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Let me thank the honourable member for, for that intervention because the work of the committee is, is absolutely fascinating and I would I would certainly recommend that you read the transcript. But to summarise it, we were looking specifically, yes at the reasons for specifically, yes at the reasons for investment being pulled. And as I said, we asked the question in a said, we asked the question in a number of different ways. The message that came back was message that came back was significant support for the life sciences sector plan, significant support for the government approach, support for the government approach, but a lack of certainty and clarity but a lack of certainty and clarity over NHS pricing, dismay with some over NHS pricing, dismay with some of the pricing, the some of the NHS pricing and nice decisions.

So I think he's right to point out that there was concern over the pricing, the current and likely future pricing of innovative medicines, but that was not the only factor in those investment in those investment decisions. But I but I would like to ask the Minister to give us an update on the on those negotiations to the extent that he can and whether this manufacturing fund is seen as some kind of potential compensation for investment in for the for investment in medicines and pricing as part of the NHS Future plan and.



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On that point. Thank you, Madam Speaker. She's

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making some interesting points about investment decisions as a committee. Also investigate. The reasons why. Some investment decisions have

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Some investment decisions have been made to bring investment into the UK. Such as the recent. Oxfordshire.

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And as part of that is it is there also a parallel need to explore where more could be done to

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explore where more could be done to attract further investment through perhaps greater supply of trained workers, better transport, better. Access to land. For development.

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For development. And so on. Thank you. My honourable friend makes an

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My honourable friend makes an excellent point because we have my committee has looked at some of the committee has looked at some of the reasons for investments, such as the one that he sets out there, and I is one that he sets out there, and I is worth emphasising that the strengths of the UK, some of which I've already mentioned with regard to us already mentioned with regard to us a really strong life sciences sector, but specifically with regard sector, but specifically with regard to skills, the skills we have available in the UK at every sort of stage in the UK, life sciences.

Ecosystem ecosystem, together with R&D tax credits. Another point of point of incentivising incentivization. And also, you know, remember that our NHS offers a fantastic opportunity to test and trial new medicines with a population which is heterogeneous, which has and with data records of our population which are second to none. So there are many reasons why companies are continuing to invest in pharma companies and life sciences are continuing to invest in our country, and we have a fantastic ecosystem of life sciences start ups and scale ups.

And that brings me to the final question I want to put to the minister, which is regard to the regional impact of this fund. The Minister mentioned in a number of occasions that this would drive investment and growth across our country. As part of our inquiry into innovation and regional growth, we have heard of a significant disparities in investment, particularly in access to capital and in funding from research funding, from locally significant disparities in in funding and investment between the regions of our of our country and the Greater South East or otherwise known as the Golden Triangle.

Manufacturing is well distributed across the United Kingdom. We heard earlier that from the opportunities in Northern Ireland. Can he tell me whether there will be a whether there will be a regional dimension to how the funds are disbursed? I hope that it will be monitored. The extent to which the funds of or regionally distributed. But does he have does he have an expectation that this funding will be distributed, will be distributed across the country in a way to drive the growth in every corner of the country that he referred to, and that it will not perpetuate existing regional

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inequalities? Thank you. So the Liberal Democrat spoke to Pippa Heylings. Thank you, thank you. It's my

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Thank you, thank you. It's my huge privilege to be the MP. For South Cambridgeshire. Which is home to Europe's largest

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Which is home to Europe's largest biomedical campus and home to the UK's world leading. Tech. And life science. Sectors. And one of the largest

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contributors to the UK economy. And the Liberal. Democrats have. Long recognised that strategic investment in life science manufacturing is essential for economic future and our national delivery.

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Of the life Sciences. Sector plan. As part of the wider new Industrial Strategy. The. Life Science Innovative

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Life Science Innovative Manufacturing Fund is welcome and exactly the kind of targeted intervention the Research and

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intervention the Research and Development sector has needed. For a long. Time. Whilst boosting economic opportunity. The fund also aims to
15:15
Pippa Heylings Portrait Pippa Heylings MP (South Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)
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opportunity. The fund also aims to increase the UK's health, resilience and ability to withstand and recover from health emergencies such as pandemics, long term health care challenges and the system shocks

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such as supply. Shock disruption. I will give way. I'm grateful. Giving way. Scientists the Norwich Research

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Scientists the Norwich Research Park and Quadrant. Institute are doing incredible work in the field of agri science, which.

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which. Could transform the future of food for the better. In fact, the Quadro Institute are visiting. Parliament and briefing MPs.

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Parliament and briefing MPs. During Evidence week next month about this work. This research is. Perfectly located. To create. Jobs in North. Norfolk, my constituency, both

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Norfolk, my constituency, both directly and in the supply chain. Does my. Honourable friend agree with me that investment in exciting.

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with me that investment in exciting. Life science projects, like those in North Norfolk. Is. Particularly crucial to. economy?

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economy? I'd like to hear my honourable friend an absolutely investment in the life science sector in the rural economy is absolutely critical, and that is why we are concerned that this motion comes at a time when our

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life science sector is in crisis. And frankly, I'm not hearing yet. From the minister that the. grasping.

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grasping. The scale of that crisis. That we're facing. I've heard consistent concerns from the life.

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Science sector. About this, with. Novartis saying that the. UK is becoming largely. Uninhabitable.

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Uninhabitable. And we've seen signs of this and heard it today, with the loss of planned investment in life. Science

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and vaccination manufacturing. Facilities to the tune of. 1 billion, loss of investment.

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By Merck MSD, and also £450 worth of million.

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of million. Investment lost by AstraZeneca. On top of the pausing of the

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On top of the pausing of the planned. £200 million expansion into their research centre in my constituency by AstraZeneca, this is constituency by AstraZeneca, this is making alarm bells ring across the chamber, obviously. Additionally, in chamber, obviously. Additionally, in a report by the AP delivering a voluntary scheme for health and growth, life science leaders are warning that the government's.

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warning that the government's. unless. Ministers commit to fixing a

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Ministers commit to fixing a scheme known as v PAC, which unexpectedly now requires companies to pay record. Clawback rates of up

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to a quarter and even up to a third of a company's revenue. From sales. Of branded medicines to.

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The NHS. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Liberal Democrats would commit to raising R&D spending to 3.5% of.

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R&D spending to 3.5% of. GDP. By 2030 for a decade long commitment that gives businesses the commitment that gives businesses the certainty they're asking for. We introduce proof of concept funding to help researchers develop their

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to help researchers develop their early stage ideas and empower. Local authorities. To develop regional spin out

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ecosystems so innovation can drive growth and high. Paying jobs. Right across the country, as well

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Right across the country, as well as where I am in my constituency in the Golden Triangle. And so I would like. To ask the minister.

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To set out, in. Addition to this much awaited manufacturing fund. What is.

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The status of the last minute negotiations with companies and their investments, such as AstraZeneca and Merck, MSD, and also what the government is doing, particularly on Vopak, to restore confidence to pharmaceutical companies, that the UK is a competitive place. Attractive to competitive place. Attractive to investment, that values research, development and manufacturing. Miss Eastwood, would you like to quote

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Eastwood, would you like to quote this? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'll try to get. My.

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My. Words correct. This time. For the second. Time, I. Just simply. Wanted to.

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Just simply. Wanted to. Say, Minister, that I really do believe that we have. A huge role to play, not. Just in Northern Ireland, but

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Just in Northern Ireland, but across the UK for many. Many reasons. Other members. Have. Mentioned a number. Of things, aren't they?
15:19
Sorcha Eastwood Portrait Sorcha Eastwood MP (Lagan Valley, Alliance)
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Of things, aren't they? ecosystem. Which I think is. Really, really relevant to all. Of this. I'm perfectly aware that

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Of this. I'm perfectly aware that within Northern Ireland, obviously. We're part of a devolved settlement. However. I do think that there is an

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actually. Drive forward opportunities for skilling. People for these sectors through

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People for these sectors through the likes of apprenticeships, how we actually interface with those businesses. But also, this might

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businesses. But also, this might sound a bit left field, but I do really, genuinely believe. That whatever. We come to talking about national resilience.

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resilience. National security and national propriety of our own IP within the UK. This is a sector which is huge.

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UK. This is a sector which is huge. And it has the. are. Self-sustaining, but also that we

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Self-sustaining, but also that we are working with companies over a long, sustained period of time. To make sure that in. An era. Of antimicrobial

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An era. Of antimicrobial resistance, for example, that we have the tools at our disposal should, God forbid, anything, ever should, God forbid, anything, ever come down the tracks again in terms of pandemics or challenges to our supply chain, I know that was.

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Probably a. Lot to take in, but probably just to reiterate again, by our. Potential in Northern.

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Potential in Northern. there. Going back decades. We stand ready. Others have

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mentioned the headwinds that are coming down the line, not just within the UK. But as. We try and not forget our way

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We try and not forget our way through this global turmoil in terms of tariffs, trade, what that means, and I really do think we have.

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and I really do think we have. A golden opportunity now. To get this right. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. Narayan. Yes. Thank you, Madam.
15:20
Kanishka Narayan Portrait Kanishka Narayan MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Vale of Glamorgan, Labour)
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Deputy Speaker. It is my.

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Pace and answering some of the questions raised. Can I firstly thank. The, the, the Shadow Benches in particular the for member Hornchurch particular the for member Hornchurch and Upminster. I was sad that her generous welcome to me was not extended to this particular announcement. In particular, I was.

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announcement. In particular, I was. Sad that she. Didn't welcome the fact that out of their Tory fiscal wreckage, we have managed to get 520 million for

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have managed to get 520 million for the British life sciences sector. That out of, out of. Out of the economic damage they did to this country, we have still managed to secure 1 billion, over 1 billion in investment from Moderna in the British life sciences sector, in the British life sciences sector, that out of what we inherited from the Tory context, we have managed to secure over a billion from BioNTech secure over a billion from BioNTech as well. And right across the board.

Madam Deputy Speaker, a picture of stability, good jobs in the life sciences and broader technology sciences and broader technology sectors, optimism and above all, an energy shared across government, the energy shared across government, the private sector and academia. I must proceed because I, as I said, I need to be in modern science because good books. The a particular concern on the Deputy Speaker has been raised about a another part of a longer standing legacy from a Tory Chancellor's austerity rampage for the life sciences sector, sciences the life sciences sector, sciences sector, sector in this country.

The government's position is very clear. We will always put patients and We will always put patients and taxpayers first. This government was open to working collaboratively with the pharmaceutical industry, which is exactly why we've put forward a generous and unprecedented offer was approximately 1 billion over three years as a part of a review of VAT, which ultimately industry did not take a vote on. We remain confident in life sciences as the driver of both economic growth and better health outcomes. Our door remains open to future engagement.

I know there are regular conversations going on and whilst I will not be updating the Shadow Benches on every single meeting the Secretary of State is taking, I can assure them that she is both involved in the particular conversations around VAT and more general engagement with the life sciences sector. Can I thank in particular the member for the honourable friend of mine from Newcastle upon Tyne Central, whose depth of experience prior to this housing, engineering and an extensive experience in this House and in particular leadership in the Committee, is one that I take considerable inspiration from.

I might I might make some progress for now. She she raised a particular point around synthetic biology, which is very close to my heart, because it is actually in the convergence of engineering, of AI and of life sciences, that I think Britain has a particular opportunity, and we are keen on seizing that to its fullest extent. On three particular questions. Foremost, the size of the funding available in this particular instance, I will say a couple of things. One, that this is the largest fund of this nature announced in the history of the UK governments.

To my understanding, capital grants worth 520 million altogether two that it is only but one part of the overall funding package across government. If you if one considers both the investments across innovate UK, Ukri, Beeb and beyond as well, I hope that some of the assurances around bag have have answered the particular question posed there and on regional impact. Madam Deputy Speaker, I will point out that the first two grants from the scheme were made out to firms in Birmingham and Kew, and so I hope that is a starting indicator of my longer term hope.

We will certainly be monitoring it. And can I say on that particular regional impact point, I'm afraid I won't be doing so. On that particular point, I believe I've been relatively generous in welcoming points across the House and on the point of

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regional impact. Madam Deputy. Speaker. In addition to the Midlands, in addition to the Midlands, can I join the Shadow Benches in welcoming with laughter and amusement the collective efforts of our entire Northern Irish contingent? Here, I Northern Irish contingent? Here, I will be taking away that very strong point about Northern Ireland's trends in the life sciences sector. It will be very much embedded on my mind and can I also thank in particular the member for South particular the member for South Cambridgeshire, in talking about the investments that she did.

The only thing I will say on some of the announcements is that they have to

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announcements is that they have to be taken in the context of the wider global context for those of us in. Particular MSD.

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Particular MSD. I'm afraid I'm addressing if the member might listen, he may feel that his point is addressed in my that his point is addressed in my particular place. And so in one of those cases, at the very least, there was a pause rather than a there was a pause rather than a cancellation announced. In the other case, there have been a series of announcements globally, thousands of jobs not in the UK alone, but beyond jobs not in the UK alone, but beyond it they were announced.

And as I said, the two announcements I mentioned, both by Moderna and BioNTech, I hope will give us some BioNTech, I hope will give us some assurance that the life sciences sector in Britain, British context, is firing on all cylinders with government support. And in final government support. And in final context, can I say a particular note of thank you to the important point, to the important point on national to the important point on national security and IP made by the member for Lagan Valley? It is very much top of mind for me in ensuring that we are not just powering economic growth, not just jobs and good health for people across this country, but doing the first job of

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government to protect our national security. Thank you. The question is, as on the order

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The question is, as on the order papers may not happen and say I of the country. No, the ayes have it. The ayes have it. I give the front The ayes have it. I give the front benches a moment or two to shuffle
15:25
15:27
None Portrait Motion: Motion to Approve the Draft National Health Service (Procurement, Slavery And Human Trafficking) Regulations 2025
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Speaker. I beg to move that the National and. Human Trafficking. Regulations 2025.

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Regulations 2025. A copy of which. Is built for this House on 9th of September, be approved. I'm here.

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I'm here. On behalf of my honourable friend, the Minister for. Secondary Care. It is an honour to represent the.

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It is an honour to represent the. Government as you bring forward. This important secondary. Legislation. And it's. Right that it should be given the full scrutiny of the House

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given the full scrutiny of the House today. Madam Deputy Speaker, slavery is one of the greatest evils. In. Human history.

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Human history. This government cannot and will not accept that we could be supporting. Forced. Labour or human trafficking

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Labour or human trafficking through our supply chains, however, inadvertently. Before I. Continue, I want to acknowledge

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Continue, I want to acknowledge issue. Both in this House and. In the other place, and. I pay tribute to.

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All. Honourable and right honourable. Members and peers of the realm, like Lord Alton, who have worked

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like Lord Alton, who have worked tirelessly to put modern slavery at the forefront. Of our national conversation. I want to begin now by.

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I want to begin now by. Setting out why we. Need these regulations. In particular. Many people. Are taken.

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Are taken. Aback when they're told there. Are more enslaved people now in. Absolute terms. Than at any point.

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In human history. But it's estimated that around 50 living. In some form.

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In some form. Of modern slavery. Globalisation has. Provided near. Limitless opportunities for.

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Limitless opportunities for. Trade in goods and services. But also, unfortunately, in human beings.

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beings. And while we on these islands. Would like to think that we are insulated from. trafficking.

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We are not. In late. 2023. The previous government published a review into NHS supply chains that

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a review into NHS supply chains that covered. 60% of medical consumables. It accounted. For £7.

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For £7. Billion of spend across 1300 suppliers, representing 600,000

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suppliers, representing 600,000 products, and a fifth of. Those suppliers. Were deemed. Speaker.

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Speaker. Imagine my. Horror when I. Read that some of the tools of my trade surgical. Instruments.

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Instruments. Face masks could be contaminated. By modern slavery. And as someone who still

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practises as a. Surgeon. I know. colleagues. Across the National Health

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Across the National Health Service, and I ask my colleagues in this place to keep all our NHS staff in mind over the course of our proceedings to.

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proceedings to. The review. Also recognise the wider benefits to the NHS of a better understanding.

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Of how our supply chains work. Noting how we could improve the quality of product. Supplied and

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resilience of supply. It gave us clear recommendations. For us to. Act on and today. I am.

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Proud to come to the House with landmark modern slavery legislation to put these policies. Into practice.

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Into practice. This is a first on these. Aisles. And I sincerely hope. Our colleagues. Across the devolved governments.

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Across the devolved governments. Can follow suit soon. And so now I turn to what these

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regulations will do. Madam Deputy largest. Public sector procurers in. The world. With an annual.

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With an annual. business. With over.

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80,000 suppliers. We have a duty to ensure no products. We procure could be tainted. By forced Labour. And opportunity, and their.

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And opportunity, and their. Opportunity to use our immense purchasing power. For global good.

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purchasing power. For global good. The regulations we bring forward today will require all public bodies to assess modern slavery risks in their supply chains when procuring

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their supply chains when procuring goods and services. For the health. Service in England, they give. Effect to a duty.

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Effect to a duty. Established by the Health. And Care Act 2022. Which requires the Secretary. Of State. To eradicate modern slavery

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To eradicate modern slavery wherever it is found in NHS. Procurement processes. We are asking public bodies.

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To take reasonable steps to. Address and. Eliminate modern slavery. Risks.

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Especially when. Designing procurement procedures. Awarding and managing. Contracts.

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And setting up frameworks or dynamic markets. Reasonable steps. May include enforcing. Robust conditions of.

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Robust conditions of. chains. With assessment criteria built. Into every stage of that process. They may.

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They may. compliance. And reassessing risk throughout the lifetime. Of a contract.

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Of a contract. And they can also include writing terms that require. Immediate mitigation. Where instances of.

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Where instances of. Modern slavery are discovered. The regulations. Will also. Require. Public bodies. To have regard to any.

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To have regard to any. Department. Of Health. And Social Care or NHS England for consistency and accountability across the system. The updated version of the guidance has now been published by NHS England and is publicly available. Madam Deputy Speaker Colleagues may be worried Speaker Colleagues may be worried about legislative overlap. They may ask themselves why we need new regulations when modern slavery.

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regulations when modern slavery. Is already illegal. But these regulations have been carefully drafted to fit with existing statute, and I can assure the House that contradictory duties have been avoided. We are building on existing measures, such as the Modern Slavery Act 2015 and the Procurement Act 2023, not replacing them. We are bringing all NHS England's procurement into scope and creating a stronger legislative footing for enforcement. The point is to introduce a single, enforceable risk management approach to modern slavery across the NHS, and we will continue to review our arrangements to ensure they remain effective for years to come.

I do not pretend this will be easy. If there was a button somewhere in Whitehall or inside the National Health Service. That could eliminate modern slavery at a stroke. I do not doubt all of us would push it, but our supply chains are vast, making it difficult to fully. Assess the scale. And although the 2023 review was just a snapshot in time, it is likely that more than a fifth of our supply chains are still at high risk of modern slavery. Items include cotton based products, surgical instruments, PPE, gloves all products vital for the day to day functioning of hospitals and clinics up and down the country.

That's why we will back NHS organisations with clear guidance.

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And support. To root out the scourge of modern slavery wherever. We find it. And Madam Deputy Speaker, there

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And Madam Deputy Speaker, there is an argument that we procure these items on the cheap. If we could just turn a blind eye. That way of thinking is abhorrent and fundamentally un-british. We cannot fundamentally un-british. We cannot waste such things simply on the scale of a tradesman behind their counter. And we must remember our counter. And we must remember our historical responsibility in eliminating slavery wherever we find eliminating slavery wherever we find it. But even if we could. Ethical supply chains have been proven cost effective in the long term.

This is effective in the long term. This is a strong case that they help us avoid litigation and, more

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importantly, supplier collapse. And even if this weren't the case, Madam Deputy Speaker, I know the will of. The British people.

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The British people. I do not have a shred of doubt that decent people across our country do not think of modern country do not think of modern slavery as a price tag worth paying. But I'm Deputy Speaker. This place But I'm Deputy Speaker. This place the Mother of Parliaments, is here to answer a call today to send a to answer a call today to send a message to all enslaved people across the world. What's happening to you is unjust, but we have not

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to you is unjust, but we have not forgotten. And we will do our utmost. To make sure. Our money does not go to those that exploit you and keep you in chains. Thank you.

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Paper. Shadow Minister, Doctor Caroline Johnson. Here, here.

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Here, here. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's a pleasure to speak in this debate on the draft National Health
15:33
15:35
Caroline Johnson Portrait Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)
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such risks and ambition. I am sure commands support right across. The House. last.

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Conservative Government to Health and Care Act in 2020 to pass new regulations to address the risk.

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Of modern slavery in NHS supply delivered. A. Review. Into those risks

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supported by NHS England, which examined where the. Greatest risks lay and how they could be mitigated.

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could be mitigated. But while we work, we welcome the direction of travel. There are so important questions about how this will work. In practice, ensuring the regulations deliver what.

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regulations deliver what. Is intended in. A fair way. Firstly, what are the expected demands this will.

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demands this will. Place on the NHS. The regulations apply to all. Public bodies procuring goods and services for the NHS in England, services for the NHS in England, including NHS England. Hospital trusts and ecbs. Will each organisation have to make its own.

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Separate risk assessment? Has an. Estimation been made of the time this is expected to take? How many

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people are expected to. Be. Required in order for organisations to fill this requirement? And what is the requirement? And what is the associated cost? Are there any mechanisms that will be in place to prevent duplication, for example, where supplies are already reporting where supplies are already reporting under the Modern Slavery Act 2015? Secondly, on its implementation and Secondly, on its implementation and support, regulations are not enough on their own. They must be embedded in practice. What steps will NHS

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in practice. What steps will NHS England take to support procurement teams in. Applying. These rules consistently and effectively, maintaining the same effectively, maintaining the same standards across all public sector bodies covered by these regulations? The regulations require NHS England The regulations require NHS England to issue guidance, which is welcome. But how comprehensive will that guidance be? With NHS England being guidance be? With NHS England being abolished, who will then produce it? Will there be accompanying training and practical support for procurement teams to ensure procurement teams to ensure consistency across the system? What will happen to a supplier if they are found to be non-compliant? Will are found to be non-compliant? Will consequences be decided by NHS England centrally or by individual trusts or ICDs? Will there be an independent oversight to assess progress? With all the churn in NHS

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England and ICB and their cutting budget? How will they have the time and space to do this? Next. The impact. On business.

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The NHS. Relies on a wide range of suppliers. Many of them are small and medium sized businesses, and medium sized businesses, bringing innovation, flexibility and local expertise. Can the Minister confirm that these new requirements will not place undue burdens on suppliers, or just her small businesses, for bidding for NHS contracts? We must uphold the contracts? We must uphold the highest ethical standards, and we must also avoid creating unnecessary bureaucracy that excludes capable businesses from contributing to patient care.

Finally, on patient care. Finally, on coordination across government, many NHS goods are sourced internationally from complex and often opaque global supply chains. often opaque global supply chains. Is crucial. Therefore, this framework aligns with the broader cross-government effort to tackle modern slavery, including the Home Office and the Foreign Office. I'd be grateful if the Minister could outline how these links are outline how these links are maintained in practice. The question of coordination is not new. During the passage of the Great British the passage of the Great British Energy Act, in a moment was put forward in the Lords to stop GB energy from sourcing panels linked to forced Labour.

The government's to forced Labour. The government's initial position was that existing laws already address that risk. But later down the road, the government later down the road, the government heeded calls by bringing forward its own amendment to block GB energy from using slavery linked solar. This episode shows how important it This episode shows how important it is to have clear, joined up action across government when addressing the risks of modern slavery. Madam Deputy Speaker, the NHS should be a beacon of integrity as well as excellence.

Patients and the public rightly expect the care provided in hospitals is not, however, indirectly tainted by the exploitation of others. These regulations are a step forward in ensuring that our health service lives up to that ideal. We welcome the intent and the ambition behind them, but will continue to push to ensure that these regulations work in practice and without unintended consequences.
15:38
Zubir Ahmed Portrait Dr Zubir Ahmed MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Glasgow South West, Labour)
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Hear here.

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I am grateful for the. Opposition health spokesperson's comments,

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health spokesperson's comments, except to state. Proportionality is the theme of the day when it comes to anything that we implement in the NHS. At.

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At. A global scale. The appropriate training will be provided and as she well knows from her time. In government.

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In government. Conversations across departments, particularly. On these issues, are always ongoing. And we are always. Willing and able to flex as we.

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Willing and able to flex as we. Learn and feel our way through these regulations. But she will. Recognise the importance.

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Recognise the importance. engaging. In supplier contract negotiations. And therefore small businesses. And large businesses can.

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And large businesses can. Feel confident that if they. Follow ethical. Procurement practices. Their business is. Most welcome.

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In the. National Health Service.

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colleagues. Madam Deputy. Speaker, that these regulations are not just about what we can do on are not just about what we can do on these aisles, but what we can do to. Eliminate modern slavery across the globe. NHS England is one of the biggest buying organisations in the UK. We have a golden opportunity at the moment to leverage its purchase power to influence supply chains not power to influence supply chains not only in the UK and Europe, but right across the world.

Today, this across the world. Today, this Parliament can send a clear signal that we will not tolerate human rights abuses. To say to the world, if you want to do business with the NHS, you must get your House in order. And under this government, there can be no compromise with the evil of slavery. I ask colleagues from all sides to help us keep that promise back. Our NHS and its staff, and help us keep this country's conscience clean. I commend these regulations to the House for.



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The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as Of that opinion, say 'aye'. Are of the contrary. No. I think the ayes have it. The I's

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I think the ayes have it. The I's have it. As we. Have not. Yet reached 4:00. I don't. Not if.

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Not if. Is not going to move the business of the House motion. Which brings us of the House motion. Which brings us to the backbench business debate. Devolution in Scotland Jamie Stone to move.
15:41
15:41
Jamie Stone Portrait Jamie Stone MP (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, Liberal Democrat)
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Since our time in Scotland together. I begin with.

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The speaker by making. No secret of the fact that I lead believes.

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In the. Strength of. Our family of. Nations. That we can make people's lives.

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That we can make people's lives. partnership. By. Pooling and sharing resources.

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Pooling and sharing resources. I believe that my credentials as. One. members. Of the Scottish Parliament, and

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Of the Scottish Parliament, and now as a Scottish member of the UK Parliament, makes. It clear. That I. Am. A.

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A. Devolution to my core, one who. Will always. Believe in the value of the Scottish.

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Scottish. Parliament and in its potential to work best for the people. Of Scotland when it is working constructively alongside

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constructively alongside Westminster. I will, I. Will not have it said here, today, or anywhere or ever that I am

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against devolution, I. Am not. I truly believe in it. And I also know that the Scottish Parliament is comparatively young, hence why I am here today, initiating what I hope would be a civil and valuable discussion into the successes and failures of our system of what might

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failures of our system of what might term multi-level governance. So far. I am proud to have been a

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I am proud to have been a founding member of the Scottish Constitutional Convention, responsible for the establishment of the Scottish Parliament in 1999. I

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am. Proud to say in my own way that I am, that my name is on the historic

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claim of rightful Scotland. I think I can say, I don't think any other member of this place. Can say that.

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Can say that. Of course, I was then elected to the Scottish Parliament in. The first elections. In 1999, and I witnessed the way

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In 1999, and I witnessed the way that it developed over the next 12 years. Crucially, during. Those first years. I became a member of the.

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Hollywood Progress. Group. Which oversaw the building of. The Parliament. People like.

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People like. Parliament. As. To. Quote the late and.

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Great John Smith. The settled will of the Scottish people. I say this to reassure the House. That my thoughts.

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That my thoughts. Come from a place, I believe, of true experience. Now let's.

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Now let's. Just remember. That the scheme for the devolved. Parliament, as enshrined in the of.

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of. chamber. In Edinburgh. Because the committees. The Scotsman.

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The Scotsman. Were intended to fill the role. Of holding the executive to account.

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Of holding the executive to account. This could have entailed, where necessary. legislation. In a. of.

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of. Lords today. In particular, as an example, I would highlight the role of the Parliament's. Education Committee in

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the first. Parliament of which I was a member. A role in tweaking. And amending the then.

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Scottish Government's first Education Act. Was this a. Reflection of. The consensual. Attitude which.

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Many MSPs. Displayed during the first term of the Scottish Parliament? Very possibly, perhaps the honourable member for a Glasgow West could. Comment on that. While I am at this stage. Perhaps a few initial stage. Perhaps a few initial thoughts come to mind. While the committees did largely. Fulfil some of this function.

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of this function. During the first 12 years of the Parliament. I'm bound to add that the advent

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controlled. Not. Only the chamber but also all. The committees.

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The committees. Did change that dynamic. I would argue that the failure of some committees after. Year. To show any. Real. Teeth meant.

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Teeth meant. That some bad. Legislation came to be. I really only need to. Quote one example.

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Quote one example. And that is the ill fated. Deposit return scheme. I think of that. I rest my case.

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that. I rest my case. I will give way. Thank you and I'm grateful. My honourable. Member was making a very good speech, and. As.

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As. A. Parliament. For ten years, I concur. Completely with his comments Completely with his comments regarding the committee structure in the Scottish Parliament. There are many faults about the other place here, but it's significantly better in terms of scrutinising government and holding government to account and improving legislation compared to the committees in the Scottish Parliament, and rising to agree with them.

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I thank the honourable member. For his intervention and yes, he,

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like me, was one of those members. All those years ago. But why. Is it working, not working the

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Is it working, not working the way it's. Intended to? Just to take up the honourable members point. I think part of the answer lies in the think part of the answer lies in the fact that the committee chairs in Scotland are there by way of gift from the respective party leaders.

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from the respective party leaders. This can lead to committee chairs. Particularly those of a government.

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Party. Feeling themselves to be somewhat beholden to their party's leadership. And therefore, I would suggest sometimes rather less than

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suggest sometimes rather less than when. It comes. To. Challenging or amending

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Challenging or amending legislation. Turning to. Here. To Westminster. Where we now, as. We. Know. The committee.

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The committee. Chairs, are chosen by a secret ballot of the whole House. I would say that the independent mindedness of committees.

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mindedness of committees. And. Those who lead them is very much a strength. And we do have here in. This.

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This. Respect against the risk of passing completely unworkable legislation. Now, my purpose of this

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assessment is. Not not in. Any way to enlarge. On a proposal for a second chamber in Scotland.

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chamber in Scotland. The Scotland Act was very clear that the Scottish Parliament. Would be duly.

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Unicameral. Similarly. However, we can also see the grants from Westminster Lung Adams grants from Westminster Lung Adams from Edinburgh. I've had the honour, as I've said already, of being a member of both the Scottish Parliament and the UK Parliament.

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Parliament and the UK Parliament. And when people ask me which. They often. that.

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that. MSPs. Enjoy is something we MPs are. Deeply envious of.

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Deeply envious of. The direct and frequent communication between the Scottish Government and their opposition strikes me as a very positive facet strikes me as a very positive facet to the way Scottish democracy is done. Furthermore, I would suggest

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done. Furthermore, I would suggest this the fact that there are only 129 members of the. Scottish Parliament. It means or.

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or. An awful lot better. Than would be normal. That includes the recognition of right across 129 of the strengths

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right across 129 of the strengths and weaknesses of the. Individuals involved. How do I put this, madam speaker,

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How do I put this, madam speaker, I have the great number of members we have here. That is not something we can necessarily perceive in other we can necessarily perceive in other members. In fact, I am afraid we can all think no names, no portrayal of

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members who do somehow slip under the radar. Let's just put it that way. I do not.

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I do not. Intend to be one of them. No. The Scottish Parliament has. Become much more. Powerful than it was when I was

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there. Just look at the tax. Powers and the Social Security powers. But I am bound to.

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Say this as an MP. From the far north of Scotland. I'm constantly reminded just how.

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I'm constantly reminded just how. Centralised Scotland has become. The decisions too often are being taken, not being taken close to the not being taken close to the communities they affect. There has. Been devolution of Westminster, Holyrood, but practically. Nothing

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from Hollywood down to councils or communities. In fact, when you consider. The police and the fire fire

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The police and the fire fire brigade power has been simply grabbed by Edinburgh. Now, one of the most interesting academics to

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the most interesting academics to comment on this is and one of the first in the scrutiny. Of devolution, James G. Callis.

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Of devolution, James G. Callis. He did emphasise that merely establishing new. Institutions like the Scottish Parliament.

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the Scottish Parliament. Cannot fundamentally alter the efficiency of decision making norms. Instead, he said, we must respect

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Instead, he said, we must respect the interplay between respected institutions and their political behaviours. This is what he

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behaviours. This is what he prescribes. Modernisers such as the. Devolution to. Bring longer term.

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Bring longer term. Stability to British politics and give it a new. Lease of life. However. Alas.

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Alas. In recent years we've seen just the opposite. A breakdown of constructive. Intergovernmental relations. And a. Move.

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Towards a polarisation which has pitted the. Scottish Government against the

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Scottish Government against the UK government as rivals rather than partners. This has been. Clear on. Multiple occasions.

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Over the last decade. Scotland does need governments in Edinburgh, London that are capable of working together, and for them to be capable

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together, and for them to be capable of ironing out. Differences of opinion where. They exist. Maturely. Within proper frameworks, and

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without always. Resorting to legal action. And court battles. And this leads

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And court battles. And this leads me to. The elephant. away.

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away. significantly. And perhaps least surprisingly, the chasm in our system of governments was most strongly

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governments was most strongly pronounced during the Scottish independence referendum. In 2014. With subsequent.

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With subsequent. Repeated calls for a second referendum colouring the parliaments. Ever since. Now I.

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Ever since. Now I. Am a proud Scot. Always have. Been and always. Will be. So for me, alas, these

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opinion. Too much grievance, too much aggression and too much resentment.

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aggression and too much resentment. to. Suggest that the people of Scotland are tired and frustrated. And they have a case. They see

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And they have a case. They see the household bills soaring, long. Waits. To see their. GP. The ferry fiasco and a Scottish.

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Education that. We all know. Simply isn't what it used to be. the.

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the. Scottish Parliament needs to. Show people that it can respond to the challenges. At hand. And can change.

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And can change. People's lives for the better. I think. Back to what my party in coalition.

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Delivered in the first. House to give examples free personal care. I test dental checks, personal care. I test dental checks, bus passes and the smoking ban fireworks. For the government. of.

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My then party leader, Jim Wallace. That broke the ground. On freedom of information.

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On freedom of information. We collectively cared about getting the basics right and were. Determined to show that devolution could deliver the change that people wanted to see.

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that people wanted to see. And I don't. Just suggest. That was. The attitude.

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Of the governing parties in coalition. There was, you know, there was co-operation in the Scottish National Party and for the. Conservatives and. Time.

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Time. Time in that regard. I touched earlier on. Upon the works of James G. Callis.

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Callis. And I want to just return to his predictions from 2001. He warned. That observers of. Devolution

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might develop an expectations. Gap, to quote, as. Scots could. Develop a resentment towards the feeling. That the potential of the

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Scottish. Parliament was. a. System of multi-level governance. I believe.

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There could be truthiness. But that we still have a chance. To rectify. With last year.

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To rectify. With last year. Change of government in Westminster and the upcoming surely. The perfect time.

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The perfect time. To revise our approach to. To our. System of multi-level governance within the UK in order to engage

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within the UK in order to engage with those feelings of discontent. And negotiate a better way. Forward.

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Together and not apart. Under the. including.

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including. Our beloved Scotland Act is forever. All legislation. Is from time to time re-examined

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Is from time to time re-examined and amended. That is how we do. Things in the UK. That is surely one of the foundation stones of

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one of the foundation stones of British democracy. To put it simply, we. Can come together now to better understand how to make our.

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understand how to make our. Our union more workable and acknowledge what needs to change.

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acknowledge what needs to change. Governmental cooperation. Can improve. Multi-level governance can improve. And I

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governance can improve. And I strongly believe that the visions. Held by our founding members of our devolved governments can and do our devolved governments can and do endure, and the still hope that our parliaments can build a stronger relationship for the future in the face of increasing uncertainty and

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face of increasing uncertainty and threat beyond the seas. And I want. To conclude with one. Simple request.

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The UK Supreme Court. Ruled in. 2002 at the Scottish Parliament. Cannot the Scottish Parliament

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Cannot the Scottish Parliament cannot legislate for the independence referendum without Westminster consent. I touch. On this in the hope that this

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On this in the hope that this debate will not be co-opted and wasted, revising and exhausting the legality of this decision. Instead, I invite all members from every Cornwall House to engage in a constructive debate about the ways constructive debate about the ways in which we can improve the way we do things. To do this, I believe. Is

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do things. To do this, I believe. Is essential, and particularly now in the face of increasing uncertainty. And let's be honest, threats. From across. The.

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Seas to. The. Way. democracy. Thank you very much for having.

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Thank you very much for having. Speaker. Beautifully timed. Mr. Stone, the question is, as.

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On. The Order Paper Patricia Ferguson. Thank you, Madam Deputy Ferguson. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm really lapsed again into old habits and code. You deputy presiding officer. But that's a presiding officer. But that's a title for another place from 500 miles up the road. I would like to miles up the road. I would like to thank my honourable friend, the member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross for procuring this
15:53
15:55
Patricia Ferguson Portrait Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)
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The long. Years. Of Conservative rule. The idea was kept. Alive by Donald. His great friend John Smith.

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His great friend John Smith. And by Labour Party and trade union members across the country. And. Of course. By. Colleagues in the.

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Colleagues in the. Liberal Democrats and. Some other parties to the claim of. Right. For. Scotland in 1988.

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Scotland in 1988. And the Scottish Constitutional Convention, were significant. Markers on. The long road to the successful 1997 referendum. I'm pleased to recount and. Remember

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power. In. 1997, one of its. First acts. Was to pass.

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Was to pass. The Scotland Act that paved the way for the Scottish Parliament just two years later.

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two years later. And I say that. Because I think it's actually. Quite remarkable that.

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Quite remarkable that. May. 1997, held a referendum. About the Scottish Parliament.

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About the Scottish Parliament. And whether or not we should. Have devolution just 2 or 3 months later. And then within two years.

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years. Delivered that Parliament. Yes, I was proud to campaign, along with many others, for a Scottish

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many others, for a Scottish believe. Such subsidiarity. Is a sensible.

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And democratic. Imperative. And with my colleague. One of the first MSPs, elected

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One of the first MSPs, elected 99, I was privileged to see. Firsthand the challenges and

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successes of the Labour Liberal executive, which steered our country. Through the.

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First years of devolution. We didn't call ourselves a government then executive was good enough for then executive was good enough for us. It's my conviction. That co-operation between the coalition partners and sometimes across all

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partners and sometimes across all parties. Was key. As my colleague said. To. The progress of devolution, as was joint.

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Working by the Scottish and. UK governments. Many positive initiatives.

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Many positive initiatives. Were implemented during that early period, and the member for early period, and the member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross has recounted some of those. And my apologies to the House if I.

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And my apologies to the House if I. Repeat 1 or 2, but I'd. Like to list some of the ones that come most easily to mind.

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that come most easily to mind. For me. Those included. Free personal care for the

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elderly. Free university tuition, the banning of smoking and enclosed verifiable. Health benefits.

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Health benefits. And where Scotland led the way anniversary. Of which. We celebrate. The.

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The. 20th anniversary of. The repeal of the discriminatory clause.

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Tui bringing the Golden Jubilee Hospital and to the NHS. The Fresh Talents. Initiative.

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The creation of an International. Development fund, the creation of the National Theatre of Scotland and submitting what.

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submitting what. Was the successful bid for the 2014 Commonwealth Games. To.

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To. Name but a very few. The Scottish Parliament's approach was a modern. One. With family friendly hours.

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And a willingness to use technology to the advantage of. Members and the.

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Public alike. But electronic voting. System and the public petitions rightly.

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rightly. As efficient. Businesslike and inclusive. And I sincerely.

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And I sincerely. Hope that the Modernisation. Committee will consider these examples during. Its investigation.

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Its investigation. Especially, please. Electronic voting. Yes. Happy to.

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Happy to. The honourable member for giving way. Electronic voting. I mean, I do. Sometimes find myself. Watching

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Holyrood TV. And most of. What happens after the. Electronic voting is endless. People

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checking if they're. Booted or wanting to check. Or. Clarifying if the machine has worked. And given.

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worked. And given. There's 120. Odd in. Holyrood and 650 odd here, I'm not entirely sure that's. The. Best plan for.

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The. Best plan for. Westminster voting. Yeah. Well, I would have to say, Madam

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Well, I would have to say, Madam Deputy Speaker, to the honourable member, that my recollection of the. System is that it actually.

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System is that it actually. Worked very well indeed. I do not know whether standards have slipped since the days. Yeah. Mean I.

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Mean I. May well be. The am. My honourable friends here and I were members of the Scottish were members of the Scottish Parliament, but that was a it did happen, I would admit that. But it happened very, very rarely. And as

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someone who sat in the Chair announcing those decisions over a. Particular period.

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Of time, I genuinely do not remember that happening very often at all. Happy to give me.

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recollection. Of the. Honourable lady and. Myself will. Have of our time in the Scottish

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Parliament was voting physically, albeit electronically, together. Chamber. The difference now, of course, is

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The difference now, of course, is some members of the Scottish Parliament are voting physically. Other us, others are sitting at the kitchen table at home pressing the kitchen table at home pressing the button. And that is the issues that my honourable friends raised. That is where the connectivity. Issue arises, and that's why it's

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arises, and that's why it's important we maintain physical voting here. With the buttons.

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With the buttons. I would absolutely agree with my honourable friend. I'm not in favour of voting remotely. Either, except perhaps in.

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Some very rare and very exceptional circumstances. But electronic voting, please believe.

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believe. Me, is the way forward. The fact that you don't have to spend some 20 minutes walking through the lobby, minutes walking through the lobby, the fact that you have a vote cast, and the result declared within

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and the result declared within roughly one minute is definitely a better use of member's time and a much more. Efficient way to do things.

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Efficient way to do things. Happy to take another. And can I thank. The chairman, Scottish Affairs

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Select Committee, for giving way. I think she makes a good point. Now she may be up against it if she's trying to talk to the side of

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she's trying to talk to the side of fashion. But I think there is. A real point around the pandemic,

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A real point around the pandemic, when people were forced to go through the chambers when they were unwell. That affected members across the House. And actually and I'll

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the House. And actually and I'll talk about this, I think there's always. Places where legislators. Can learn.

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From each other. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. And it's undoubtedly true.

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undoubtedly true. another. We have to learn from international examples to. But if I can. Give one example.

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can. Give one example. learn. From, it is. That electronic voting has. A place.

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A place. And a place that I think this House could very much benefit from.

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House could very much benefit from. I what can I just say before I go? We, I really didn't imagine that go? We, I really didn't imagine that that one line would. Put it.

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Well, I, I can't really comment on electronic. Voting, but I was going to make a comment in. The other. Direction in terms of.

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Direction in terms of. Learning in both directions. Don't you are in. His heroic struggle to bring about devolution,

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struggle to bring about devolution, I believe wanted a stronger Scottish Parliament in terms of. Privilege. In terms of right, of summoning,

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of ministers powers. Yeah, in terms. Of. Order and the balance of power between the Parliament and the government to be much stronger. Two, does she think that will be a good thing for the union?

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thing for the union? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think.

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I think. That we have to realise that the Parliament in Scotland is very much smaller than this Parliament, and that does make a big difference to a

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that does make a big difference to a operates. It is very much easier.

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It is very much easier. As the member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross mentioned. To speak to a. Minister than is here. It was a

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Minister than is here. It was a regular occurrence. There's a saying in the Scottish Parliament that you only have to sit in the garden lobby only have to sit in the garden lobby for half an hour, and every other parliamentarian will have passed you by at one point or another. That is

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by at one point or another. That is a huge advantage, and it's one of the things that I personally preferred about the Scottish. Parliament, that. You did have that access.

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You did have that access. Not. Just. To ministers, but to other. Colleagues from across. Parties, and.

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Parties, and. You could develop those kinds of relationships where you could work cross-party very easily with them.

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cross-party very easily with them. That I think was a great thing. I think, to the Parliament.

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Does in Scotland have a perhaps a better balance of. Power. Between members and the government. But I think we.

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Have to accept that. The scale is an influencing

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factor. At the very least. I was then going to. Go on to say that I wouldn't for

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Go on to say that I wouldn't for a moment suggest that the years from 2007, when the. SNP firstly formed a government through a deal.

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government through a deal. With the Tories, or when they then formed a majority government, or even in coalition. With the Greens, had.

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With the Greens, had. Been a complete failure. But there has been a lot. Of wasted. Time and.

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Opportunity per capita. It's a member aware that in that 2007. Parliament that the Labour.

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Parliament that the Labour. Party voted. With the SNP more often than the conservatives don't. Oh. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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In the budget. But the Labour Party didn't. Vote with the SNP on the budget. The SNP needed. The Tories.

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The Tories. To get their budgets. Through. And that was the basis on which they did a deal.

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they did a deal. And sadly, sadly. Those budgets very much. Reflected Tory values and that is

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Reflected Tory values and that is why Labour couldn't vote for them, nor could friends in other. Parties that are represented in

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Parties that are represented in this chamber. But I have to. Say, though. obsessing.

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obsessing. About the Constitution. And creating. Grievances with. Westminster, and we could have. Been in a very different. Place

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if the Scottish. Government had continued. To focus on the issues that mattered to people in their everyday

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mattered to people in their everyday lives, but also. If they had been more with. Members of the Scottish.

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Members of the Scottish. Parliament itself. My honourable friend from. Caithness.

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Sutherland and Easter Ross mentioned the ill. Fated deposit.

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Return scheme as an example of when there wasn't that cross-party.

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Working to make legislation appropriate and fit. For purpose. And I would also. Say. That. The.

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Offence of Behaviour at Football Act, which was passed in. 2012 only to be repealed in 2018.

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Now, I would. Not for a minute suggest that Scotland. Doesn't sometimes have a problem

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at football matches and in some of the sectarian. And offensive behaviour that goes on. Around it, but that.

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Was a badly thought out act. And. People trying. To. Say. That at the. Time, but. That was not listened to.

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That was not listened to. And I think it's always. Important that we listen to one another and we hear. What others.

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What others. Have to say. So sadly, it has to be said. Recent Scottish governments. Have been.

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Have been. Found wanting. When it comes to the measurements of success. They have set for.

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Themselves, whether, for example on NHS waiting time guarantees. Climate targets or.

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Climate targets or. Educational attainments, and the premise of the Parliament.

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Allowing for the delivery of Scottish solutions to Scottish. Problems has fallen some.

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Problems has fallen some. Way short. And I would also have to say, for a Parliament that is devolved, it has had the most

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devolved, it has had the most centralising agenda in recent years. And that has not been to

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And that has not been to Scotland's advantage. Scotland is a place made up of peoples and. Cities and. Towns and villages.

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Cities and. Towns and villages. And what works in my constituency in Glasgow West. Will not work.

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In Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross necessarily. And it's. Important those. Differences are. Reflected and.

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Reflected and. That the. Agencies and public. Organisations that support and

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Organisations that support and serve our populations reflect that local bias, that local. Need, that local interest. And

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Need, that local interest. And sadly, that is in some. Places no longer. The case. So as

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Places no longer. The case. So as the Scottish Parliament progresses. Into a second. Quarter. Century, it's. An opportunity to.

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An opportunity to. Look back to mark both. The successes and the shortcomings. And I hope to recall the words of Donald Dewar.

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At the Parliament's opening. On the 1st of July 1999. Because it is relevant.

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Because it is relevant. Today, as they were. Then, when. Donald said, never lose sight of

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Donald said, never lose sight of what brought us here, the. Striving to do right by the people of. Scotland.

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Scotland. To respect their priorities, to better their lot, and to contribute

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better their lot, and to contribute those. Words, we should look forward to. The future, to how the Scottish

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Parliament can do right by the people of Scotland, and to how. As we as. Members. Of this Parliament. Can

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Members. Of this Parliament. Can that. So here.

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So here. Now, I currently have no plans. To put a time limit on. Contributions, but members might like to reflect.

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like to reflect. On how many are here and adjust their remarks accordingly. John Cooper yeah. Yeah, but I'm Deputy Speaker.

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Yeah, but I'm Deputy Speaker. Thank you. Devolution isn't working. Instead of two governments in harness Scotland, there's one here harness Scotland, there's one here with its back turn to the one in Holyrood, which daily plots to break up Britain. Labour took power convinced they were the grown ups convinced they were the grown ups who had reset relations with the SNP at Holyrood. Harsh reality is that
16:07
John Cooper Portrait John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)
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the SNP have no interest in joint working for. If devolution. Is a. Success, then they lose the argument that independence is a necessity and they are aided in this mission by labours devolve and forget this. Government trolleys billions north to Edinburgh via the block grant. But what happens after it disappears into the SNP black hole? You can see what goes in but not what comes out. Well, no one of these government benches seems to care overmuch. The sleek it SNP are running rings around them.

The Chancellor appeared at a smart video saying she was delivering investment in Scotland. The backdrop was Lossiemouth key RAF base for protecting the High North. Yet the SNP. Actively undermines British defence. There has been ludicrous talk of deploying Scottish forces to peacekeeping in Ukraine. There are many Scots men and women in Britain's forces, but there are, Madam Deputy Speaker, no Scottish forces. Ironically, the SNP deny defence firms vital investment because of childish opposition to ordnance. The shells, bombs, bullets and missiles that keep us all safe in a dangerous world that's pulling apart, not pulling together.

Yeah. Under the previous administration, the Scotland Office was the guardian of devolution. The then Scottish Secretary of State, Alister Jack, adroitly deployed section 35 of the Scotland Act to prevent the Unlamented Nicola Sturgeon's gender recognition reform, trampling the rights of women and girls across the entire UK. That was not some assault on Holyrood's powers, but a judicious application of the law as it stood to prevent devolution being abused, to prevent Scotland, bit by bit, becoming a different country and to stop devolution being used as a battering ram to smash the union.

Would that happen now? Today's Scotland Office is, we are told, Scotland's window on the world. Rather than nurturing the Scotland Act, it looks increasingly like Dover House has been annexed by the Department of Business and Trade as a pop up shop for salmon and whisky, perhaps a bit less looking out the window and a bit more attention to what's going on at John Swinney's Bute House is in order, but they seem to have more foreign breaks than Galloway Travel Service in Stranraer and my constituency of Dumfries and Galloway, Malawi,

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Zambia, Canada, Washington DC. Despite having no role. In. International affairs, Scottish ministers have racked up more miles

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ministers have racked up more miles than Biggles at taxpayers expense. And what are they discussing?

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And what are they discussing? Since trade policy is reserved? Take, for example, China. Scottish business Minister Richard Lochhead business Minister Richard Lochhead sloped off in a low key visit to Beijing and I asked what occurred. But the Foreign Office didn't have eyes on. In another display of Devolve and Forget. But I'm Deputy Speaker. There are many siren voices Speaker. There are many siren voices calling for holyroods abolition. A Supreme Court judgements on gender are ignored. It's committee system, as we have heard, is neutered so as we have heard, is neutered so that genuine scrutiny is near impossible.

And the First Minister spends more time pronouncing on Gaza spends more time pronouncing on Gaza and boycotting Israel. Foreign affairs are outwith his bailiwick,

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while Scots tax rises with no improvement in public services. I'm happy to give way. I thank the honourable.

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I thank the honourable. Gentleman for giving way. But he tries. To draw. Attention to many issues which he

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Attention to many issues which he says. Is the fault of the. creating. Difference between. Scotland and England. But what would.

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But what would. He say about the Brexit. Vote in 2016, in terms of creating that difference? Well, I thank the honourable

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Well, I thank the honourable gentleman for his intervention. I just gently point out the more Scots voted for Brexit than anything else. I think in the history of Scotland. To John Swinney, not so much yesterday's man as the day. Sorry, I make some progress. Thank you, John Swinney. Not so much as yesterday's man as the day before. Yesterday's man is a pound short. Parnell trying to suborn British institutions to undermine Britain. Devolution. It is not working, but it is not broken beyond repair.

My normal friend. Lord offer of gavel. He sits in the other cliffs, has challenged Holyrood to do better in a series of essays entitled Wealthy Nation, Healthy Nation, it's predicated on Holyrood parking its constitutional obsession in order to deliver what it was intended to.

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Do better. The lives of those living in Scotland. Amen, Madam Deputy Scotland. Amen, Madam Deputy Speaker, but it will require the Scottish Government to respect democracy, not least the clear cut decision in the 2014. Independence referendum to remain part of the UK. And it will take this House finding And it will take this House finding the courage to confront what the SNP are up to. It's not about putting them in their place or keeping them them in their place or keeping them in their lane.

No, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is merely about. Both governments respecting the Scotland governments respecting the Scotland Act. If Holyrood is to have another 25 years, John Swinney needs to comport himself as First minister, comport himself as First minister, not first agitator. And the Secretary of State, present Secretary of State for Scotland, Secretary of State for Scotland, once told Harvard University of the need to more closely align accountability with decision making accountability with decision making authority here, here, Madam Deputy Speaker, the of ice in the whisky cocktails in far flung embassies is cocktails in far flung embassies is seductive.

But while the Scottish Secretary of State is distracted, the SNP plot. And it's our

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the SNP plot. And it's our constituents who will pay the bar bill and face the hangover. Yeah. Chris Kane.

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Chris Kane. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. When the Scottish Parliament was

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reconvened in 1999, there was an expectation that devolution would not stop. At Holyrood. Holyrood but.

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Would build stronger systems of local government. Donald Dewar put it best in. His first speech.

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A Scottish Parliament, not an end. A means. To greater ends. We should celebrate.

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celebrate. Holyroods achievements over the last 25 years, but we must also face a truth.

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a truth. Devolution has stalled, even gone backwards when it comes to local

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backwards when it comes to local government. The first phase. Moved power from. London to Edinburgh. The second phase transferring.
16:13
Chris Kane Portrait Chris Kane MP (Stirling and Strathallan, Labour)
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phase transferring. Power from. Holyrood to our local communities never came.

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Yes. Instead. Powers have been stripped away. Business rates.

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Business rates. Water, further education, police. Fire, local. Enterprise. All one's.

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All one's. Local responsibilities. No. Centralised. simple.

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simple. The best decisions are made. Closest to the people. Affected by these decisions. Yet

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Affected by these decisions. Yet in Edinburgh we have a government that is run by the Scottish National Party. No one could accuse them of being

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No one could accuse them of being the Scottish local party. Before I came here I.

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Was leader of Stirling Council. Around 80%. Of our budget came from a Scottish Government grant. From council tax.

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The only fiscal lever left to councils. It should be.

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councils. It should be. Set locally. But for most of the last 18 years the. SNP government. Flows are capped.

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It now. Arguments for and against tax

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rises. Should be made in town halls. Not dictated. From Holyrood. For devolution. To

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From Holyrood. For devolution. To work, there must be respect between different levels of government. I welcome efforts.

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By the. UK government. To reset that relationship. I only wish the Scottish. Government would.

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Government would. Show the same respect to local authorities.

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Meanwhile, England has raced ahead. Metro mayors and combined. Authorities are transforming the landscape.

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landscape. We've seen the next step in English devolution. In recent weeks. And months.

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And months. Here are exciting reforms pushing. Power outwards. By

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pushing. Power outwards. By contrast, a tired Scottish Government is pulling power. Inwards through quangos and

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Inwards through quangos and directions from the centre. I'm grateful to the. Honourable gentleman.

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Honourable gentleman. For giving me because I agree with what he's saying. And I'm struck by. What the honourable leader of the member of the Chair of the Select Committee said, referencing back to the roots of the Scottish Parliament in the Constitutional Convention.

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Those of us who were part of that movement then did it because we believed that. There was. A.

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A. Better way for Scotland to. Be governed. It has. Moved from. That to seeing the Parliament in

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That to seeing the Parliament in exercise, merely. In asserting national identity. Does he agree with me? If we get

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Does he agree with me? If we get back to the Scottish Parliament being about. The. Better delivery of Scottish services for Scottish people.

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That the. Difficulties he's identifying would very quickly be solved? They are here.

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They are here. I thank the honourable gentleman for that intervention. I completely agree with them. I go back to what I said.

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I go back to what I said. And I quote Donald Dewar, a Scottish Parliament, not an. End, a means to a greater ends. And if.

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And if. We all remember to think about the evolution of devolution and. Strive to make it as good as it can Strive to make it as good as it can be, I think we would all be doing a service to the people of Scotland. The risk of the divergence between Scottish devolution and English

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Scottish devolution and English devolution is stark. Glasgow is the UK's fourth largest city, yet without a.

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Metro mayor of combined authority, it has no real mechanism to secure trailblazer deals like

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Greater Manchester or the West Midlands. If Glasgow. Performed at the. Level of its. Peers, Scotland's GDP could rise

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Peers, Scotland's GDP could rise by an amount equivalent to the entire oil and gas sector. That's the real prize, a real prize of real devolution. Scotland has eight cities, including. Stirling should be able to debate what greater devolution would mean for our economies and our communities.

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But partnership. Requires honesty. The Verity House agreement promised no surprises. Within months, Scottish

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Government ministers imposed another National Council. Tax freeze.

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Tax freeze. Without consultation. That is. Not partnership, that is essential Not partnership, that is essential direction. And if we're serious about devolution, we must be serious

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about devolution, we must be serious about accountability. Audit Scotland. And the National Audit Office

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And the National Audit Office should deepen collaboration. Joint funding streams must be scrutinised coherently. Public trust depends on coherently. Public trust depends on transparency. Madam Deputy Speaker, devolution was never meant to be a one off event.

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COSLA has long warned that Scotland is now one of the most centralised countries in Europe, centralised countries in Europe, while England powers ahead are councils are squeezed. Our communities feel remote from

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communities feel remote from decision making and our cities risk falling behind. What Scotland. Needs is a new.

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Needs is a new. Phase of devolution, more fiscal autonomy for councils, genuine partnership with national government. More powers for

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communities through development trusts and community councils and other bodies, and the option. Of combined.

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Of combined. Authorities or mayors where local people want them. Thank you.

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people want them. Thank you. Yes. Graham Leadbitter. G mothered.

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G mothered. That speaker. Back in the early 90s, I was just out of school and 90s, I was just out of school and getting involved in politics. It's an exciting time. There was a constitutional convention accepting constitutional convention accepting that new Parliament and decision making coming closer to home. People in Scotland had the right to decide

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in Scotland had the right to decide and whether to have a devolution retain. Power with Westminster.
16:18
Graham Leadbitter Portrait Graham Leadbitter MP (Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey, Scottish National Party)
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And the two as well, and the Scottish Parliament's early years featured some of the most well-known names in Scottish politics Donald names in Scottish politics Donald Dewar, Winnie Ewing, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, Jack McConnell, Aye Annabel Goldie, Jim Wallis and of course have current First Minister, the SNP leader John Swinney. His public service and commitment to Scotland remains second to none. Yeah, and I'm the retired. The sadly recently passed a George Reid who was respected right across US House and right across the Scottish Parliament.

The formation of the Scottish Parliament also marked my own employment in politics for the first time, with a former MP and MSP also Morgan, who was also a deputy presiding officer in the Scottish Parliament and who retired in 2011 after a distinguished period in that role. That introduction to politics working for an MP, MSP, as many were in that first couple of years in the Scottish Parliament, you know, fired up my own desire to go further in politics, to become an elected councillor.

Later a council leader and now as a parliamentarian in this place. And I did that because my desire to improve the lives of the people I represent and the people right across Scotland, which was the same reason that colleagues right across US House have got into politics. The Scottish Parliament has led the way in many areas of policy tackling child poverty. It's the only part of the UK in which child poverty is currently falling. The Scottish Child Payment of £37.15 a week, introduced by the SNP, has been praised by numerous highly respected charities and organisations in tackling child poverty and social security.

The

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formation of social security. So I thank you for giving way.

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So I thank you for giving way. But the. Scottish Child Payment isn't just praised by charities, it was their idea. They campaigned for a long idea. They campaigned for a long time, the Child Poverty Action Group, to make that happen, and the Scottish Government opposed that. It Scottish Government opposed that. It was parties in opposition and those charities that make that happen. So they don't. They just praise it that we should congratulate them for that we should congratulate them for that long campaign that they ran to make that happen.

And I hope you'll join me in that. Thank you. Hey.

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me in that. Thank you. Hey. Thank you. Certainly, Madam speaker, the point made. This is speaker, the point made. This is entirely reasonable, and I commend the work that has been done by charities and third sector organisations over many years and highlighting a wide range of issues. And I am grateful that the honourable member acknowledges that the Scottish Government has responded to those concerns and taken action on it, demonstrating exactly the power that the Scottish Parliament can have and the difference it can make on Social difference it can make on Social Security.

Both the Sovereign supplement we've mitigated the bedroom tax and we've increased the bedroom tax and we've increased the employment rate for disabled people without resorting to cutting vital welfare support.

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welfare support. On that point. And I'm. Very much enjoying. This speech and. Reflecting on many of our many.

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Experiences of devolution, how it's inspired us. But on that point, on disability, employment, disabled on disability, employment, disabled people will join me, therefore in sanctuary. It's regrettable the Scottish Government decided to cut employability funding for employability funding for disability. Schemes in 2020 for 25.

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disability. Schemes in 2020 for 25. I'll take the honourable members point, but the fact remains that the point, but the fact remains that the Pip is currently the issue that's under threat from the current UK government. That is, that will have government. That is, that will have a devastating impact on disabled people. And I know that many members across the on the, on the government across the on the, on the government benches agree with that. Yeah. On the economy and taxation. We've got the economy and taxation.

We've got a more progressive income tax system. More than 50% of people working in Scotland pay less tax working in Scotland pay less tax than they do elsewhere in the UK, and I fully support that because,

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you know, as a higher rate taxpayer. So much. I thank the honourable member for giving way. I wonder, does he accept the fact

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I wonder, does he accept the fact that the Personal Independence. Payment is devolved in Scotland? Yeah. But.

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He's not Pip. It's ADP. Yeah, it's a CTP in Scotland rather than rather than Scotland rather than rather than Pip. Different thing. But fundamentally FCA and I'm sure the Honourable lady news does that. If the UK government decides to cut a vast amount out of the social security system, that will have a really significant impact on the Scottish budget. That's right. And you know, the honourable members opposite week after week in this place, call for more money to be spent on certain things in Scotland, but at the same time seem to be suggesting that I'm a substantial cut to the Scottish budget.

And with a change to the Social Security. But budget can respond to the first and first. But yeah, if fact, if a substantial budget cut comes through on the back of that, then that's going to have a serious impact on on what the Scottish Government can do and what other Scottish Government may be following the next elections.

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The honourable. Member for giving way. He talks about a budget cut to Scottish about a budget cut to Scottish Government. But does he not recognise that this Westminster government has actually given the Scottish Government the largest Scottish Government the largest funding settlement in the history of devolution? What has happened with the money.

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Take away? I would gently remind members, officer, that every single year officer, that every single year there should be the largest and the largest devolution budget because largest devolution budget because inflation goes up every year. If inflation then. But there has not been a negative inflationary year and I think in my lifetime. So, you know, it should be going up. And know, it should be going up. And every year there should be a record settlement every single year.

That's just inflation. That's basic just inflation. That's basic economics. I know the government benches struggle with that benches struggle with that sometimes. On a council tax. And what charges we have the worst in what charges we have the worst in the UK and we are a top destination with the top destination outside London for foreign investment for London for foreign investment for over a decade. And since the SNP came to power in 2007, GDP per capita has grown in Scotland by 10.3% and 6.1% for the rest of the UK.

So there are, you know, there are things that have been done both by the Labour and Liberal executive in the first few years of the Parliament and by the SNP government since 2007 that have delivered substantial benefits for the people of Scotland and for Tom to health. And got more GP's per head of population than than any other part of the UK for the last five years. Also the best page recognising the challenge and the and the importance of that role. Scotland's quarry and East have been the best performing in the UK for nine years, with lower average waiting times for abolish prescription charges and the Honourable member, the Honourable Member of the motion referred to a three hour examinations as well.

Over a thousand school building projects have been completed since 2007, and 96% of our school leavers go into further training for education and workplaces. Moving on to a point that the myth of the motion made in his submission to the Backbench Business Committee, he described this place as the parent of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government. I would a I would describe the Scottish people as the parent of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government through the Constitutional Convention, and I very much commend the honourable member for his work in that role.

But I would say fundamentally that the parent of the Scottish Parliament is the Scottish people who voted for it and who continue to back it and to continue to elect governments to it. That is brings me to my final point. The Scottish Government. The Scottish Parliament

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is on a journey. It was formed in 1999. It has continued on a journey. And now Michael.

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The honourable. Gentleman, will have heard other people make the. Point about this journey and the

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Point about this journey and the need for that journey to go from the Scottish Parliament down to communities can offer them one of the most clement cases for that the most clement cases for that journey to continue, and that is in relation to the administration of the Crown Estate, something where we the Crown Estate, something where we now see the Crown Estate Scotland behaving in exactly the same way that the Crown Estate did when it that the Crown Estate did when it was answerable to the Treasury in London.

Here. Does he agree with me that his colleagues in the Scottish that his colleagues in the Scottish Government should be devolving control of the Crown Estate, especially the marine estate, to

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especially the marine estate, to communities like mine in Shetland? yeah. I have no better. Hey, I thank the honourable

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Hey, I thank the honourable member for his for his intervention. The I think the point he makes is a reasonable up to a point. I think we need to be very careful when we're talking about energy being a matter of national security. This is and seabeds very important for our energy infrastructure. So we need to be really careful about about how we deal with that and who and how we handle that. I wouldn't be averse to handle that. I wouldn't be averse to having a full debate and full discussion about devolution of Crown Estate assets to local communities, but I do think we need to be really careful around the energy links to that and how that could play out to ensure that we maintain that national security of an energy grid infrastructure.

So you're saying to us here, as he's saying.

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That. Shetland could. Not control our. Own seabed, does he maybe think

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about two even two poor. Scrambler better. I think I think the honourable

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I think I think the honourable gentleman is maybe twisting about what we're seeing. I think the.

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Little thing. Yeah, it's too stupid. Yeah. I think it's possible to have a few stupid people. I think you few stupid people. I think you think. I think we're within the realms of getting into a debate about an entirely different subject. about an entirely different subject. But. I mean, from to an extent, I've always been argued very strongly for, for more devolution to local government, having been a council leader. And I made that point very strongly when I was when I attended strongly when I was when I attended COSLA leaders, and I will continue to do so.

I am sure there are many other internal debates within other parties as well about queer queer parties as well about queer queer should rest on particular issues. And, you know, I'll continue to make those arguments with colleagues. But those arguments with colleagues. But just to conclude, I started off a by saying that the people of Scotland saying that the people of Scotland had made the decision and what I believe to be the right decision to form the Scottish Parliament. We're form the Scottish Parliament.

We're on a journey, and I believe and my colleagues in the SNP believe that journey will will reach independence and then that will be a new job. But where that goes from there and, you know, but fundamentally it's for the people of Scotland to decide and ministers and others.

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Do live on. Ministers and others across the House have recognised, that is, that the people of Scotland are sovereign and that it is their right to choose and their right to decide here what they have not set out is how they can choose and how they can decide. And that is what

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the responsibility of the current UK government is. Katrina Murray. Well.

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Well. Thank you, Madam Speaker. And I also would like to commend. The member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross for securing this Easter Ross for securing this important debate. Before devolution. Scotland specific bills in this
16:30
Katrina Murray Portrait Katrina Murray MP (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch, Labour)
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Scotland specific bills in this place were few and far between, often single single digits a year. Even though our health education legal systems have been completely different and have been for centuries, decisions that shaped people's lives in Scotland were made elsewhere without the understanding or the accountability that they deserved. That's why so many of us, myself included, campaigned passionately for devolution. Like others in the chamber, my belief in devolution was forged in those in the 90s and in the run up to the 97 referendum.

My memories of that campaign, that polling day, that result will be there with me for the rest of my life. The feeling of hope that we had, but will also stay with me for the rest of my life. We wanted decisions about Scotland's schools, hospitals and communities to be made by a Parliament within Scotland, but still part of the wider United Kingdom. It was about giving Scots a stronger voice with a union, bringing democracy closer to people, improving accountability and delivering better government.

It was also about pooling and sharing and about being grown ups. For a time that promise felt real. It felt good. And today that promise had been squandered, even with extra powers. Over the years, with a record 52 billion settlement this year from the Labour government at Westminster, the SNP Scottish Government has failed to make devolution work for the people it

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was created to serve. I look at. My own constituency and the

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My own constituency and the evidence is stark. Many of my constituents still languishing on constituents still languishing on NHS waiting lists. It's shocking that in NHS Lanarkshire alone, more people have waited for more than two people have waited for more than two years for treatment than they have in the entirety of England. Here I have to give we.

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have to give we. The honourable member, for giving way. What I find. Very. Distressing is how colleagues.

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Distressing is how colleagues. In the House opposite are. Always talking. Down the health. Service in Scotland.

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Service in Scotland. But but you, you, you.

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You avoid mentioning you. I beg your pardon. That would be me. The member opposite. Colleagues

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The member opposite. Colleagues often refer to problems in the health service in Scotland, but those members never point to the those members never point to the fact that Scotland's waiting times, from diagnosis to treatment and cancer, are better than any other cancer, are better than any other part of the UK. You don't point to the fight. You don't point to the fact that waiting lists in Scotland fact that waiting lists in Scotland are falling, while waiting lists in England are rising and have been doing for three months now, there

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doing for three months now, there are many, many other problems. What the honourable. Gentleman. Could have chosen to contribute

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as a speech, I think will go back to Katrina Murray. Thank you. Thank you, Madam

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Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And what I will what what I will refer to the honourable honourable gentleman on is actually

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honourable gentleman on is actually the experiences of my. as. A. Member of staff within.

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Member of staff within. The Health Service of Scotland, having worked through the plan, having worked through the pandemic, having.

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having. Used our the. What was await, Amber green

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What was await, Amber green status of actually how serious the productivity how like how waiting productivity how like how waiting lists are. We didn't just cast those lists are. We didn't just cast those stages of the of red and green. We created a stage purple for when it created a stage purple for when it got more serious. And we had more. And we were we had capacity issues that. Warranted a red. We then. that. Warranted a red.

We then. Moved to status black because it was too serious for status status. Part too serious for status status. Part poll I pay tribute. One of the reasons that I'm here in this place reasons that I'm here in this place is because of the. 14 months I worked through that I, my colleagues worked through, that. Nobody, no member of staff, should need a nobody who is trying to provide health care, should be trying to provide health care when they are

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working in way beyond emergency situations. And what.

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This this came to light very much in a women's Lowland League football match in my constituency.

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match in my constituency. A number of weeks ago. Where a poor player. From Linlithgow.

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From Linlithgow. Votes football team injured during a match with Cumbernauld United Ladies.

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United Ladies. Leigh with. A broken leg for five hours on a

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A broken leg for five hours on a Sunday while she was trying, she was waiting to get an ambulance waiting to get an ambulance dispatched. I see, thank you reward.

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I thank my honourable friend for giving me, just in reference to the intervention that we have just heard. I wonder. What my honourable friends who

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What my honourable friends who know so much about the NHS in Scotland. Makes of the fact. That the Scottish Government's

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That the Scottish Government's own target for treatment of cancer is that 95% of. Patients are treated within. 62 days.

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62 days. Of an urgent referral for cancer treatment. Hasn't been. Met since 2012.

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Met since 2012. Care I. I thank the honourable

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Care I. I thank the honourable member for Cowdenbeath and Kirkcaldy for her intervention on this. Certainly the experience on this matter was the very good that the Scottish Government was very good at setting targets. It was never very good at making sure that those targets were met. And I see that all of this every day, every week, people living in pain, losing mobility, struggling with their mental health. You look at the improving picture south of the border and ask, how much longer do we have to wait? Although what you are hearing is actually this is business as crisis, business as usual.

NHS staff are being failed by the very, very system. Devolution

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was meant to strengthen. Undone and from that. Absolutely from the.

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Absolutely from the. They said to reposition. I heard that heckle the what I would say is that heckle the what I would say is at a point where NHS staff pay higher rates of income tax and also higher rates of income tax and also pay higher rates of pension contribution, and to are significantly higher rates of pension contribution. They take the take home pay of an NHS member of take home pay of an NHS member of staff in Scotland, and in take home pay of an NHS member of a band, six nurses in Scotland and a band six not in in England.

It's not. It's

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not in in England. It's not. It's problem. Can. I suppose, but. The problems do not necessarily end with health. Across Scotland, end with health. Across Scotland, the Fire and Rescue Service is currently consulting on cuts that currently consulting on cuts that the firefighters, their unions and the public fear will cost lives. The the public fear will cost lives. The service faces a capital backlog of 800 million. That said, not just a government asleep at the wheel, but it's one that protect this, failing to protect one of our most vital to protect one of our most vital public services.

My constituents know that too well. The threat that fire poses a serious fire at Blair Lynn Industrial Estate, injuring six people and a destruction by five of the iconic Saint Mangus Church, a listed building and landmarks seen from across the constituency is now gone. This is a failing of scrutiny and a failure of priorities. The SNP government is distracted, more interested in constitutional division than in fixing the problems

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our communities face. We exist.

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We exist. This Labour government and this Labour Government has delivered record investment for Scotland's record investment for Scotland's public services. But ask anyone on the ground, no one can see what the

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the ground, no one can see what the SNP have done with the money. Yes. Yeah. I remember the hope of 1999 when the Scottish Government Parliament the Scottish Government Parliament was first elected. It was full of passion, it was full of debate, it passion, it was full of debate, it was full of cooperation. Members disagreed, often strongly, but they disagreed, often strongly, but they shared a common purpose to make Scotland favour healthier and more prosperous. They passed legislation, prosperous.

They passed legislation, as we've already heard, some of it absolutely groundbreaking. This is the spirit that Scotland needs again today. The need for change is clear. Scotland's full of ambition, Scotland's full of ambition, potential opportunity. We have world leading businesses, unique natural leading businesses, unique natural resources and global brands that command respect across the world. Well, why world leaders and renewable technology home to cutting edge scientific and tech institutions and renowned research institutions and renowned research and intensive universities, we need a Scottish Government that shares the same hope and aspiration for the future as we do in this bench is here to make devolution work, to take the full advantages of everything Scotland is going for it and we face a choice, a clear choice.

Do we keep circling the constitutional cul de sac? The SNP have let us down, or do we choose to move forwards and we do it with the

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strongest devolution settlement and Harriet Cross.
16:40
Harriet Cross Portrait Harriet Cross MP (Gordon and Buchan, Conservative)
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Devolution sounds. Like and should be. A fantastic.

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A fantastic. closer. To. Home with policies that fit the. Uniqueness of local areas.

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the. Uniqueness of local areas. And communities, such as mine in Gordon and Buchan, where accountability and impact are more

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closely linked. But that's the theory. In practice. And certainly in Scotland's case, the reality.

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Is very different. Devolution has become a fight. For power. For their power, but not for

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become. ideology. Rather than what is actually best

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Rather than what is actually best for the public and the businesses which we are meant to serve. Since 1999. We have seen power.

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Since 1999. We have seen power. And so much. Power. Indeed more power than any other devolved nation in the. World devolved to Scotland.

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World devolved to Scotland. Or more specifically, as others have also mentioned today. Devolved to Holyrood because that is where in Scotland devolution ends. What we see in Scotland. Is a level of bureaucracy, red tape.

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And top down. Decision making, which stifles any opportunity for devolution. To properly trickle down.

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To properly trickle down. To benefit all regions and communities across Scotland. And we

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can look at the evidence. In Scotland. 53% of planning decisions. Are appealed to the Scottish

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Are appealed to the Scottish Government are overturned by ministers. Compare that to England, where

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instead local decisions are upheld 70% of the time. And look. At policing. The SNP merged eight regional

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The SNP merged eight regional police forces into one. Nationalised central body. In doing so, they scrapped local police boards run.

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police boards run. By local councils. And replaced them with a single national authority appointed. By and.

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By and. Accountable two Scottish ministers, and the result of this is Since its creation, over 140

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Since its creation, over 140 stations have closed, creating what Police. Federation has itself. Called

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Federation has itself. Called policing deserts and almost. across. Great parts of the country.

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Great parts of the country. And there are, of course, endless examples from business of where devolution is putting our businesses

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at a disadvantage. Compared to others. Across the. UK. And this includes with business rates. Business rates are devolved, meaning that when the last Conservative government introduced. 75% rate relief for hospitality

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south of the border, this was not. Replicated in Scotland. Businesses in Scotland had to wait years for a similar relief, which, when it was finally introduced, was less generous than what we saw elsewhere. And in

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what we saw elsewhere. And in education we have seen years of decline in. Scottish standards. In 2006, Scotland proudly.

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In 2006, Scotland proudly. Had students. Who were the best in the. UK at maths. But now. After years of the SNP's

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After years of the SNP's curriculum for apparent excellence, our Pisa score has plummeted by 35

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our Pisa score has plummeted by 35 points and we are now trailing well behind England. That is a generation of young Scots being. Failed by.

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Failed by. The SNP. Why in Scotland. After almost 20 years. In office, has the SNP.

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In office, has the SNP. Seemingly been so. Content to let education. Standards slip and slip?

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While over the past decade, while. Conservatives were in government. At Westminster, we saw standards. And. International rankings rise south

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International rankings rise south of the border. Why? Other than the need to just do things differently, would we not do things differently, would we not look at the rising standards elsewhere in the UK and think just for one minute, but maybe for the for one minute, but maybe for the sake of the next generation of Scots, we could learn from what is happening elsewhere in the UK. And happening elsewhere in the UK. And there is also a huge amount of incoherence between different policies we see in devolved areas.

Pensioners in Scotland, with an income of 35,000, are considered to have a low enough income to be eligible for the Winter Fuel Payment, which of course is welcome. After Labour decided to balance their books on the back of our poorest pensioners. But how does this square with the SNP government considering workers on a salary as modest as £30,000, wealthy enough to be taxed more than those in the rest of the UK? Was devolution really set up as a vehicle to see teachers and doctors and police officers based on working in Scotland, taxed more and taking home less pay than those

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doing the same job in the rest of the UK. But for devolution. To be considered a success, we

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To be considered a success, we should be able to see it and feel it. But even objectively, these benefits are very hard to find. And I know there has always been those saying and pointing out, but we get things for free, like free things for free, like free prescriptions or certain bus travel or university education. But these aren't free. They are taxpayer aren't free. They are taxpayer funded, funded at the expense of something else and funded at the cost of higher taxes for people and cost of higher taxes for people and businesses across Scotland.

The Scottish Government is receiving from the UK government over 2500 from the UK government over 2500 pounds more per person to spend, compared to those in England. So why then, are our outcomes not streaks ahead of those south of the border? Why is our education system failing Why is our education system failing children? Why are universities at the point of almost collapse? Why is life expectancy lower in Scotland? life expectancy lower in Scotland? Are drug deaths highest in Europe? Why are NHS capital projects being paused, including the Ellen Health paused, including the Ellen Health Centre in in my constituency there was chronic underfunding and underinvestment in our roads, underinvestment in our roads, including the A96 and the A90 in Gordon and Buchan.

Scotland's employment rates are lower than the employment rates are lower than the rest of the UK, and why are local authorities on their knees? Due to a lack of funding? If devolution had been made to work for Scotland, all these should surely at least be equal to the rest of the UK. If successive Scottish Governments had full focus on their actual job, on actual devolved competences, maybe, just maybe, Scotland could be a nation outperforming the rest of the UK. But no.

And why? Because since devolution, successive Scottish governments have not wanted to take responsibility as well as the power. They have preferred to point fingers to cover their own incompetence rather than hold themselves accountable. If these things had happened over the last 25 years, or even began to happen, then maybe devolution could have been seen as a success for Scotland. And until then, I really struggle to accept

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that it has been. Yeah. Kenneth Stevenson. Thank you. Madam Speaker. Can I

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Thank you. Madam Speaker. Can I thank the honourable friend for securing this debate? As a Labour politician, I am immensely proud of
16:46
Kenneth Stevenson Portrait Kenneth Stevenson MP (Airdrie and Shotts, Labour)
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politician, I am immensely proud of my party's commitment to devolution, delivery of the Scottish Parliament, and will always be grateful to those who have gone before us. Like my like my constituency predecessor. Excuse me, John Smith, who fought tirelessly to bring the decision making process closer to home and the formative years of the Scottish Parliament. It was a Labour Liberal coalition that delivered a smoking ban. This was an innovative policy that considerably improved the public health of the Scottish population.

Excuse me, reducing the number of primary age children inhaling Second-hand smoke by 39% within a year, and it was the same coalition that oversaw an education system that was recognised as one of Europe's best. Indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. It was in those formative years that 3 million of initial funding was set aside for international development, particularly in Malawi, which. Developed an already strong relationship between the people of Scotland and Malawi, and committed the Liberal Labour Liberal coalition to tackling global health and wealth inequality, reducing infant mortality rates in Malawi and improving.

Educational standards. Moreover, the delivery of free personal care for the elderly was a transformative domestic policy that set Scotland on a path to being a more compassionate society, securing dignity for our elderly population and putting the principles of devolution into action. This was always the change devolution was intended to make, and while significant time has since passed, it remains pretty telling that the policy achievements I mentioned remain to this day. Some of the most significant the Scottish Parliament has ever passed.

The reality is the SNP and conservatives and now reform UK thrive. When Scotland is divided. Their record of poor delivery of incompetent governance, of money wasted under vanity projects is clear to see, but they are all as comfortable as each other and hiding behind the constitutional question.

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Well, that's an intervention. Yes. Thank you. My intervention.

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He's mentioned reform UK, who apparently are recent converts to devolution. Does it tell us all we devolution. Does it tell us all we to know about how much value they place on Scotland, on devolution and a future Scotland? That is not one member of that party in the chamber this afternoon. Stevenson I forgot

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this afternoon. Stevenson I forgot to mention he makes a very a very good point. Evolution opened the door for. Delivery of.

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Delivery of. Good legislation. It was the opportunity for devolved assemblies and parliaments where politicians were closer to home. We'll have a positive change for the people they represent. However, for almost two represent. However, for almost two decades Scotland has been held back. Eye watering amounts of public money have been wasted and their once great education system has seen standards plummet and the poverty related attainment gap remains related attainment gap remains stubbornly wide, with a gap for pupils achieving an eight to C grade, a higher level setting at grade, a higher level setting at 17.1 percentage points this year.

Like my colleagues on these benches, Like my colleagues on these benches, I want devolution to succeed. I want the Scottish Parliament to deliver for Scottish people. I want the people of Scotland to look at their Parliament and recognise it as a place where good things get done and the interests of what people are. But under national nationalist leadership, it has increasingly become a talking shop where blame gets passed and responsibility and accountability avoid it. It saddens me to say that through no fault of our public sector workforce, but as a consequence of SNP incompetence, if you live in Scotland, you have a 1 in 6 chance of being on an NHS waiting list.

GP appointments in towns such as shorts and my constituency are hard to come by. You pay exorbitant rail fares and if you're an educator like I was, you are working with diminishing resources and your pupils from poorer backgrounds still face greater barriers to educational and vocational success. Indeed, with the opportunities now afforded to young people as a result of this government, and embracing the potential of I, the SNP's political choice to neglect our fee and vocational sector becomes increasingly inexcusable. That is not the Scotland we envisaged when we held the devolution referendum and the first set of Scottish parliamentary elections.

That is a Scotland that has been stopped in its tracks due to a lack of ambition shown by its SNP government and an unwillingness to do anything about growing the economy, increasing investment and showcasing Scotland as a proud part of the United Kingdom. I will.

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I thank my Honourable friend for giving way, and he rightfully mentions a fee and the crucial role that further education plays both in that further education plays both in our communities and in our economy. Does he recognise the reality that Does he recognise the reality that in my area, in five Fife colleges receiving real terms cuts from the SNP Scottish Government at the SNP Scottish Government at the expense of colleges, or sorry in favour of colleges in Edinburgh and Glasgow and Aberdeen, which are receiving increases.

So those areas

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receiving increases. So those areas are being, having their funding increased, whereas Fife is having its funding cut. I thank the honourable member for

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I thank the honourable member for her intervention and I think the whole system across Scotland, with her fee, needs to be looked up her fee, needs to be looked up rather rapidly. Things are moving so quickly and we are now becoming a skills economy, not just with AI but skills economy, not just with AI but with other things. And we have a lot of companies that want to move into Scotland and want the surety of having a good, well funded further education college close to where they want to locate to.

I'm they want to locate to. I'm immensely proud of the investment Labour Government has put into Scotland the largest financial settlement in the history of devolution, delivered to improve the lives of working Scots in Aberdeen, lives of working Scots in Aberdeen, shorts and beyond. This reaffirms Labour's commitment to devolution and its pride and passion for and its pride and passion for Scotland's potential. This debate has reflected on the past and the progress of devolution, but this historic settlement could define its future, and the people of Scotland will have the opportunity to elect a Scottish Labour Government next year, to invest in our NHS and to grow our economy.

So it works once again for working men and women. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Stephen Gethins. Madam Deputy Speaker and can I first of all, thank the member for Caithness for bringing this debate and the way in which he brought it forward. This is always a useful exercise. Let me start off by being and consensual. I always think, you know, it was astonish on my coat. Conservative colleagues, I think there's always a place for legislators to learn from one another. And my time working in the European institutions is something that you used to do.

And the same goes for across these islands. And to be fair to the Chair of the Scottish Affairs Select Committee also touched upon that, and it was good to hear how the experiences of Holyrood and the member for Caithness experiences of Holyrood. I think that has enriched the debate. There is so much that we can learn. A barely started to the member for Stirling. Why don't you just let me make a little bit of just let me make a little bit of progress and then and then maybe I can take his point shortly.

And can take his point shortly. And there is always a way to learn, and I've seen from my experiences here where maybe there's something that this place could learn from Holyrood. I remember having to be part of seizing the Order Paper part of seizing the Order Paper simply so members could have a say, something you'd never have to do in something you'd never have to do in Holyrood. I can remember a minority government that was just a minority government that was just a minority in 2017, nearly keeling over because it was just short of a minority and yet refused to speak to the other yet refused to speak to the other parties.

The DUP not with notwithstanding all they spoke to notwithstanding all they spoke to the DUP. That was pretty much it. And the catastrophe that we saw because of the culture in this because of the culture in this place, and I saw the damage that that did, something the Labour benches have acknowledged in the past, something the Liberal past, something the Liberal Democrats have also acknowledged. And we also see the challenges. And actually I will give way at that actually I will give way at that point.

I've been I've mentioned.
16:54
Stephen Gethins Portrait Stephen Gethins MP (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, Scottish National Party)
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Thanks to a member of Giving Way. I just wanted to pick up on the point of working with other parties to get a majority. And the first thing that comes to mind is the SNP's venture with the Scottish Greens. After the last election in Scotland, and would the member reflect on that and how damaging that was, particularly for north

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east Scotland, whether that's upgrades to our roads or the impact on our oil and gas sector. Yeah. And I'd like to thank the

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And I'd like to thank the honourable member. What I think was surprising is that we have had only one majority government during the period of devolution. Yet every government, regardless of its colour and every party I think has been a part of that, except the conservatives, of course, who struggle electorally in Scotland. But I think that speaks to the wisdom of the Scottish electorate. Every party has went their full term. We had one minority government in my time here, led by the conservatives.

It collapsed in a conservatives. It collapsed in a heap, costing billions to the taxpayer, 40 billion a year, with taxpayer, 40 billion a year, with more waste emanating from this place than Scot. The Scottish Government's entire budget and the conservatives bear a huge responsibility for that. bear a huge responsibility for that. And when it comes to accountability, we sit in a Parliament where we have to pass an act of Parliament just to to pass an act of Parliament just to get rid of a member of the House of Lords.

Now, I've heard members complain about those who sit there, complain about those who sit there, be it Peter Mandelson or Michelle be it Peter Mandelson or Michelle Mone. Are they accountable? Are they accountable to the electorate in the way that every single member, and I'll happily give way on that point of the member wants to come in on Peter Mandelson. No, no. OK. Every single member is elected, something we could learn from in this place enormously. It is a disgrace that needs an Act of Parliament to remove a member of the legislature who's got a job for life.

And I would love it if Labour would commit to their 115 year old manifesto commitment at long last, to deliver. But I fear we'll be waiting at least another 115 years to deliver. Now I do beg one area and I congratulate the member, but for today I have to agree with my honourable member, the member for Moray, because this idea that the parent of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government should be minding disappointing children, I have to say, is not quite the nature of which I think we should be conducting this, as I'm sure he would agree, on reflection, that the parent of the Scottish Parliament was in fact the Scottish people in that referendum, which has been acknowledged by all sides.

And I'm sure that is something that he will reflect on. And actually, Westminster hasn't been much of a parent, to be fair, these past few years we've seen austerity in Labour Conservative years, we saw Brexit and we see all sorts of much more powerful legislators at a substate level. And our neighbours, the Faroe Islands, all in the islands, Greenland, these countries, these are substate actors, not independent actors that could determine the relationship with the European Union and can even determine whether or not they want an independence referendum as well.

This, the Scottish Parliament is a relatively weak legislator compared to other legislators in Europe. But despite that, we see child poverty reducing. We see Social security that's being dealt with with respect. When the Labour government made a woeful mistake in the opening days of their turn in government and got rid of the Winter Fuel Payment, the Scottish Government, which has limited resources, stepped up. Now. The Labour government, a Labour government, criticises Scottish Water being in public hands, which astonishes me.

But that remains because of devolution and that move towards 100% renewables came about because of devolution. Now there are some areas where I think we. Can learn. I mean, I've served on committees in this place and they work well. The member for Caithness will be aware that, of course, because of the structure that was put in place, the committee structures are part of the legislative process. I think there's always things that can be learned, but I think we need to acknowledge that because that is part of it.

But on that point, I did see a giveaway

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to them and I'll happily give way. Thank you very much. The member. Has talked about the need to

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Has talked about the need to learn from each other and different legislators. I wonder, after ten years of COSLA saying to the Scottish Government. That funding in Scottish Government. That funding in local government has been stripped to the bone, that libraries are closing, swimming pools are closing, schools are underfunded, our schools are underfunded, our teachers are at their wit's end in the classroom, and the ones who want

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the classroom, and the ones who want to be in the classroom can't get a money. What has. His party learned.

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His party learned. From COSLA in. The last. Ten years of the. Pleas to fund.

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Pleas to fund. Local government better? Yeah, I remember the member sounds very helpless. There's quite a lot the member could do about this, since the overwhelming majority of the the overwhelming majority of the Scottish Government's finances still come from Westminster, still come from The Chancellor, and what you from The Chancellor, and what you will find is that local government has found itself in a better situation than its counterparts down in England, who have seen tremendous cuts from the conservatives and then cuts from the conservatives and then from the Labour Party as well.

But let me conclude on this. As we go through this, we should learn from each other. And I look at all parts of these isles and where we can learn. I talked about Westminster. Let me touch upon Wales for a moment, because tomorrow and the member members were right to talk about reform. The member for Glenrothes was quite right to raise that point. Tomorrow there's a byelection and Caerphilly, which will reflect how people feel about what happens when Labour is in control of a devolved administration

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in Wales. And looking at those polls, it's not for me to tell the people of Caerphilly. How.

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How. They should vote. But reform are a threat to devolution is right, and I really do hope that Plaid Comrie I really do hope that Plaid Comrie win in that election tomorrow. Given that given the threats that come that given the threats that come from reform in that, given that the other parties, Labour included, are other parties, Labour included, are so uncompetitive on that now in this family of nations, I think members are right to talk about a new relationship.

Taking us out of the EU against our will was a profound change in that relationship, and I was grateful to hear the concessions from the Secretary of State for Scotland today around an independence referendum. I'll also independence referendum. I'll also reflect finally on the member for Caithness when he talked about nothing as forever. Nothing is nothing as forever. Nothing is forever. This place could not be forever and its control over Scotland. So let me finally bring up Scotland. So let me finally bring up this.

Labour members and Liberal Democrat members mentioned the claim of rate for Scotland, the claim of right, and I took this to my House Commons paper, acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs, and that's something that we would call for each and every day. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Melanie Ward. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm honourable Deputy Speaker. I'm honourable members may be aware that last May the people of Scotland sent 37 the people of Scotland sent 37 Scottish Labour MPs to this place and a diverse bunch we are, I feel and a diverse bunch we are, I feel it ages me to note that when my honourable friend, the member for Falkirk speaks, as he as he may do Falkirk speaks, as he as he may do shortly, he may talk about the referendum.

He will mean the 2014 referendum. He will mean the 2014 one I am and which he was just too young to vote, I believe, and I hope it doesn't age me too much to say that when I talk about the referendum, I mean the 1997 one in which I was just too young to vote which I was just too young to vote in as well. And of course, that 1997 referendum asked whether there should be a Scottish Parliament, if it should have tax varying powers.

At the time, I remember feeling that At the time, I remember feeling that if I had been old enough, I would have voted yes to both a long held have voted yes to both a long held Labour manifesto commitment to bring decision making on hugely important decision making on hugely important issues our health, our education, our community safety, our economy into the hands of the Scottish into the hands of the Scottish people. And I still remember being in the car with my mum the day after the vote and listening to the news coverage and feeling excited that the result had been yes, yes.

It felt like such a huge opportunity for all of us. And then his speech at the opening of the Scottish
17:04
Melanie Ward Portrait Melanie Ward MP (Cowdenbeath and Kirkcaldy, Labour)
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Parliament in 1999, Scotland's then First Minister, the late great Donald Dewar, said that the Scottish Donald Dewar, said that the Scottish Parliament was first a hope, then a belief, then a promise. Now it is a belief, then a promise. Now it is a reality and the question today is whether the SNP, Scottish Government is using the reality of those significant powers that it holds, together with record levels of funding and extra £5.2 billion this year alone to make the greatest possible difference to the lives of our people.

And I believe the answer our people. And I believe the answer is clearly not, whether through incompetence or by design. The incompetence or by design. The Labour led Scottish executives, as they were when the Scottish Parliament was first formed, took Parliament was first formed, took bold decisions banning smoking in public places. The Fresh Talent public places. The Fresh Talent Initiative, Action on sectarianism, something which is too often overlooked in Scotland. They took action and, crucially, they delivered results. And we need far delivered results.

And we need far more of this in our politics in Scotland because today's reality for many in my constituency and across many in my constituency and across Fife and Scotland as a whole, has been bitterly disappointing. After almost two decades of SNP division diversion and failure, 1 in 6 Scots languish in pain on NHS waiting lists, over 40,000 of them in Fife. Indeed, there are more people waiting over two years for NHS treatment in Glasgow alone than there are waiting that length of time in the whole of England.

A third of ambulances are waiting at hospitals for more than an hour, while the patients within them wait for a bed. Last winter, medics at my local hospital, the Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy, had to set up a makeshift ward outside the hospital because the queues of ambulances were so great. SNP members officer may not think that matters. They may think that's a record to be proud of, but that is not what my constituents feel at all. I will give we still hope for giving we.

The Victoria Hospital is not in my constituency but obviously serves my constituents. Does she share my concern that the downgrading of the NEC units that has been proposed in both Dundee and Fife and Fife means that our constituents will have to travel much further for critical needs and be far away from home from their premature babies only. And I thank the honourable member for her intervention. I've seen the work that she's been doing on this, and of course, it is absolutely essential that the special care intensive care treatment available for premature and sick babies at the Victoria Hospital does not change in any way, and I wish that the Scottish Government would get on and act to put at rest the concerns that our constituents no doubt jointly

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share. In this. I will give you. A warning from history. During the time. Of the.

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Coalition government in maintain. Maternity led services.

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Consultant and maternity services based in. We know soon as the SNP government get into downgraded now, mums have to travel huge distances.

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mums have to travel huge distances. To give birth. With the grisly fact. That one mother. Of twins gave birth. To one.

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To one. Child in. Inverness. That is. Absolutely intolerable in this.

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Absolutely intolerable in this. Day and age. I thank the honourable member for his intervention and I can feel the his intervention and I can feel the horror that he feels about what his constituents have been put through because of this. I'll take one more intervention. I thank my honourable member for giving way. She talked eloquently about the pressures on eloquently about the pressures on the health services in Scotland under the SNP government. Does she share my concern about the dental share my concern about the dental deserts that now exist in Scotland? Just yesterday, a constituent of mine contacted me to say that they'd been told their doctor would have to wait three years for an orthodontist wait three years for an orthodontist appointment and alternatively, they could pay over £2,000 and receive an appointment in two weeks.

Privately, my. Honourable friend makes an important intervention about something that we're seeing too frequently across Scotland, and that is our people being forced to opt in to private health care because they cannot get treatment under the SNP's NHS. It's completely unacceptable and these kinds of waits exist too. I know for assessments for autism, for example, for mental health support, where we have an absolute crisis all across five and with the Scottish Government is refusing to give the support to NHS Fife that is needed to try to make a difference to it.

But the problems do not just exist in our health system, they also exist in our education system. Sadly, our educational outcomes in Scotland worsened this year with the gap in attainment between the richest and poorest students growing, including in Fife. This comes after Nicola Sturgeon said that eradicating the attainment gap was the priority that she wanted to be judged on, as her record as First Minister and as my honourable friend. The member for Glasgow West said earlier. Scottish Government failure on the targets that it sets for itself is a hallmark of its time in office.

And that's the same Nicola Sturgeon who said that that proclaims her love of literature at book festivals. She was part of successive governments that have presided over the closure of almost 100 libraries in Scotland and indeed on skills. We've seen the UK government having to step in recently to save a welding skills centre because the SNP government refused to save it. Their indifference, and often opposition to the highly skilled, highly paid jobs that the defence industry provides across Scotland and in constituencies like mine, has meant that young workers are missing out on the opportunity of a secure, highly paid job and they are also deeply irresponsible at such a dangerous time in the world.

With Russian aggression so close in Europe right on our doorstep here, all of these stark while the bill to the SNP, while the bill to the taxpayer for SNP waste becomes ever more eye watering. Nearly £1 billion spent on Barlinnie prison almost double the original cost over £400 million spent on two ferries four times the initial estimate, with one still not in service eight years late. And the costly shambles let us not forget that was the deposit return scheme, flanked by the SNP and the Greens and described by the SNP's leader in Westminster as a self-inflicted wound.

The purpose of devolution is supposed to be to take action in Scotland on Scotland's problems and help to make our nation the best that it can be. Yet too often this is not the reality under this Scottish Government. As a couple of examples from my own constituency show at the peak of summer this year, when many businesses in Kinghorn and Burntisland were looking forward to making the most of tourism season. Because we are blessed by beautiful beaches. Their beaches were closed because sewage spills made the water unsafe to swim in.

Some of my constituents became physically sick because they had swum amongst sewage, and yet the Chief Executive of publicly owned Scottish Water said over the summer that my constituents concerns quotes should not be overblown, but this has a real social and economic impact on people in my constituency, not to mention the health impact. It is the direct result of the SNP's failure to invest in our sewerage network and in regular water quality monitoring. I wrote to the Cabinet Secretary, the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Climate Action and Energy, in August and received a response which began with the comparison between Scottish and English bathing waters.

This is something that we are familiar with. You know, we raise a problem in Scotland. Well, it's worse in England. And even if that was true, that's exactly why this Labour government is taking tough measures to crack down on polluting water companies. And yet water quality is another devolved issue, creating significant problems that the SNP Scottish Government seem completely disinterested in solving.

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And give you. On that point. I will stop to Scott Arthur and. I do thank you for giving way.

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I do thank you for giving way. She represents my home town, so it's always great to hear what's happening now. The you know, the UK government had an awful situation government had an awful situation from the conservatives on water quality on rivers and that's beyond doubt. But what we do know in the UK is how much sewage is going from sewage systems into rivers. In my constituency I have a dog dog owners

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constituency I have a dog dog owners concerned about what their dogs are politely. I contacted. Scottish Water. They couldn't

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Scottish Water. They couldn't even tell me what the volume of sewage was going to the rivers. So this should be this whole

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this should be this whole situation's unacceptable and it's something we have to discuss more. Melanie Ward I completely agree with him and what he says about the experience of dog owners. And his seat is also a problem that's been raised with me locally and indeed in raised with me locally and indeed in Kinghorn. Some of my residents were promised action from Scottish Water five years ago and, and nothing has five years ago and, and nothing has happened and there is no justifiable explanation for why this is the explanation for why this is the case.

Another serious example is that of anti-social behaviour. And across Fife there seems to be a growing problem from just last week, some of my constituents were left some of my constituents were left terrified by appalling disorder involving up to 50 young people. In Cowdenbeath, a police officer was assaulted and residents in Cowdenbeath have said that they are scared to go out at night. I know that my local police are doing the best that they can to get on top of this.

I know they have a plan to try to deal with disorder the residents are worried about. That may take place over the Halloween period, and I have been raising this with the local police inspector and discussing it with him. But it's not an isolated incident, and it can't surely just be a coincidence that it comes as police numbers across Scotland last year fell to their lowest since 2008. It's increasingly clear that more action devolved action is needed in Scotland to tackle the problem of anti-social behaviour, because it makes lives miserable and we have to ask the question about why this isn't being taken seriously and more done about it by the Scottish Government.

Tragically, I have to say something about drug deaths in Scotland, which remained the highest in Europe for the seventh year in a row. Last year, the National Records of Scotland have said that the total number of people dying from drug misuse in Scotland was over 10,000 over the past decade. Drug deaths in Fife last year were almost double what they were in 2010, each one of them a tragic waste of life. And I met recently with some of the residents of town and Kirkcaldy who have a particular problem with this, where residents are deeply worried and they told me about families where mothers had had four children and only one child remains alive because of the scale of drug deaths.

And the problem that we have. And that's one example of why it is so frustrating to hear the SNP continuing to chant her on about independence, trying to distract from these very real problems across our communities rather than getting on and solving them. We were told that the referendum on Scottish independence was a once in a generation referendum, and the Scottish people gave their verdict very clearly. There are so many issues that the SNP's mismanagement, neglect and underinvestment have caused over the last almost two decades.

Yet they continue to show almost no interest in fixing them and tackling the problems that they already have the powers to solve. It is long past time that they took devolution seriously and used it to improve the lives of our people here.

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Doctor Scott Arthur. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you. And I want to start by Thank you. And I want to start by thanking the member from Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross for introducing this debate. It took two

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introducing this debate. It took two times to get here, but thank you, inspired. By his bravery.
17:15
Scott Arthur Portrait Dr Scott Arthur MP (Edinburgh South West, Labour)
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By his bravery. By when he said mission. He was on the committee which overseen the building of the Scottish Parliament because I think it was ten times

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because I think it was ten times over budget, but perhaps with skills we can deploy to building ferries in. Scotland or perhaps.

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Scotland or perhaps. A little later, I don't know. So it's been it's been now 26 years since the Scottish Parliament years since the Scottish Parliament was established, with the promise of empowering our nations. And for this to work, it's always been the case

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that the government in Scotland needed to have a can do attitude. In the early. Years of the Scottish Labour, the

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Years of the Scottish Labour, the government saw significant progress. As we've heard. Already. We are. We abolished. Tuition fees were

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We abolished. Tuition fees were introduced, the smoking ban, free ones. Free bus.

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Free bus. Passes for older people. We approved the rail link. To the borders. Reintroducing that. And.

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And. out. There today.

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Was that life expectancy during the 1999 to 2007 Parliament increased by 2.3 years. In Scotland.

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The wonders of a Labour of. Course, a vital expansion in social housing in. Scotland, something.

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Scotland, something. That is needed today. The pace of change was absolutely incredible during that era as Scotland was during that era as Scotland was finding its feet with this new Parliament, which felt like a bit of it's.

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it's. Here to stay. But until and but. In the. Two. Decades since. Then, the SNP government has.

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Then, the SNP government has. Overseen a period of stagnation segments.

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Please to. Madam Speaker, first of all, can I command some positivity and or I command some positivity and or listen to your speech and thank you for that, just to say that those here agree totally agree with me that in relation to my brothers, Gaelic brothers, Gaelic cousins that they are in probably I don't want them to leave the union. I want them to stay. I want them to stay in this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland forever, because it's better to be done better together as somebody.

It comes centrally from Westminster here that keeps the Scottish Parliament and its people going. It's also one of the things that perhaps, maybe hasn't been mentioned yet. And one of the advantages of devolution has been tourism, the connections tourism between between Northern Ireland, between Scotland. Our cousins across across the, the, the, the statesman, the time. But does he agree when it comes to things that are positive and good, that the people from Ulster and the people from Scotland, I understand

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from the Stewarts of the lowlands of Scotland. So I'm probably Scottish from maybe before some people were that there were. Older.

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Older. Mr. Shannon. I'm sure we're fascinated him. What you're descended from, however, could I respectfully point out to members that those who have not been here that those who have not been here for the bulk of this debate should perhaps not be making lengthy

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interventions? Doctor Scott Arthur. I thank. The honourable member for his

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The honourable member for his police intervention. And of course. An earlier on we. Heard about the Scottish Child Payment and how that is cut child

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Payment and how that is cut child poverty in Scotland, something that we all all welcome. But that only. Happens because of the. Barnett consequentials. That come.

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That come. To Scotland. The fact. That because of that, public spending in Scotland is higher. But

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spending in Scotland is higher. But that is why that is happening. If that was, if that was to go overnight, which some people want. Scotland as a whole, we'd be

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Scotland as a whole, we'd be poorer. And I'm convinced. That Scotland. I. Am convinced that Scotland never have ought to be poorer and never.

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have ought to be poorer and never. Have. To. Be poorer. So getting back to my speech, I my positivity and my positivity. I my positivity and my positivity. I mean something that I've seen over the past year in this place is a the past year in this place is a real enthusiasm and energy about devolving powers to local democracy and England. And it's something to see every single week in the Transport Select Committee, where a lot of those transport powers are being rolled out, and we see the difference.

Andy Burnham is making in Manchester. It's just a real shame. In Scotland we do not see the same transfer of powers from from the centre at Holyrood and to those local authorities, and that is what is holding Scotland back, without a doubt. And without a doubt in Scotland back so in housing. So I hope the situation with housing in Scotland is particularly disheartening. So after the Scottish Government declared a national housing emergency and have to say they created it with our cuts, but nonetheless, nonetheless it did declare a housing emergency.

I

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expect to see a major and concerted effort to. Reverse the.

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Awful trend in the housing situation in Scotland, but instead the number of completed affordable the number of completed affordable homes fell this year by 22% and new housing starts are falling and there is a human cost there. So it's not just statistics we've got in Scotland. We have 10,000 children living in temporary accommodation.

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living in temporary accommodation. There is more people living in temporary accommodation in Glasgow than there is than there is in all. Of.

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Of. Wales, and absolutely incredible to autistics. But we have to be careful. This is.

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careful. This is. Not a failure of devolution. It's a failure of government on tourism, on tourism, which is which tourism, on tourism, which is which we heard about a second ago with a few were there. It's a vital part of the Scottish economy and it's a vital part of Edinburgh's economy. It must employ at least one person every street in Edinburgh, but the lack of decisive action has been equally clear. The Scottish Government is too focussed on accumulating. Powers rather than accumulating.

Powers rather than using them. So I love Edinburgh and I'm proud that people. Come from all over the world to see it. I absolutely love it, but sometimes I'm ashamed of what they see because the amount of tourism coming into the amount of tourism coming into the city does have an impact, and the city itself gets very little direct cash benefit from that tourism industry. So the solution to that, of course, was a tourist tax, which my Conservative friends I know do have concerns about, but was a solution to that was a tourist tax.

And for all the time I was on the council, 2017 through to 2024, we campaigned for that power. And I think for I think for almost ten years in the run up to that, the Edinburgh Council campaigned for that tourism tax power. The SNP government opposed it for reasons that are not clear to me. They absolutely opposed it then. Then they started to support it. And now more recently, they try to take credit for given the Edinburgh that for that power, a fire which Edinburgh fought for years.

So instead they should be apologising because they're dithering. It's cost Edinburgh millions and millions of pounds and that's money that could be invested in our city to make it better for its residents and for tourists who choose to come here. And so the problem and the problem got around. The tourist tax really does raise serious questions about the SNP government's use of devolved powers. And another fantastic example is the powers they have around the use of fireworks. And I do accept that the powers that own fireworks are divided between this place and Holyrood.

But in Edinburgh I've met police officers who have got lasting injuries to fireworks. I've met police officers and fire and fire brigade personnel who have fireworks fired at them. I've met somebody who runs a care home which was set seats to buy it with by young adults with fireworks. But the

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Scottish Government says there's insufficient evidence for them. To. Take action around the use in Edinburgh. It's absolutely mind Edinburgh. It's absolutely mind boggling. The Scottish Government could act, but it chooses not to. But the most concerning issue around what's happening in Scotland about the use of powers is health care, and I think others have touched on and I think others have touched on this already. And just to be clear, the point that we heard earlier, the point that we heard earlier, it's not about the NHS staff like my wife, it's about how the NHS has

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been resources resourced and how is supported. We talked about the cancer waiting times a few minutes ago. Cancer waiting times. In Scotland have.

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In Scotland have. Never been worse, never been worse. Absolutely incredible situation for people facing diagnosis, waiting and waiting and waiting. It's something that should waiting. It's something that should shame us all. And as of June 2025, 7800 patients in Scotland have been 7800 patients in Scotland have been waiting for an inpatient or day care treatment for more than two years. In Edinburgh, the number has 979 917 people. So this this figure stands in sharp contrast with the NHS in sharp contrast with the NHS England figures, which I think others have spoke about already.

With only 161 people across and With only 161 people across and across, a nation of around 50 million people have been waiting for more than two years. Yet in Edinburgh is 979. Is that not incredible? Absolutely incredible. So devolution was never about simply about giving Scotland more powers. It was always about wielding those powers with accountability. That important words and competence is another important word to improve the lives of people in Scotland. So rather than holding on to them, these powers should be used and they should be deployed to local authorities.

Something else we've talked about, we talked about local authorities as council tax. Of course, the reason, one of the reasons the Scottish Government won the election, the SNP government won the election in 2007, was on a pledge to scrap the council tax, which is don't wait on that to happen. I think it's not. The heated council tax, I think was a slogan we've seen on billboards. So the current SNP government has demonstrated a complete inability to meet that fundamental responsibility. And, you know, another example is around shipbuilding.

They're saying that the Scottish Government owns a shipyard in Scotland, which is

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fantastic, but yet it chooses to contracts. To Poland.

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To Poland. And Turkey. Meanwhile, it's left to the UK government. And let's to the UK government. And let's let's credit the great work that the member for Edinburgh South done on this to go to Norway to bring this to go to Norway to bring contracts to those Scottish yards. Where is the Scottish Government's priority when it comes to shipbuilding? It's just

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shipbuilding? It's just non-existent. Please do, please do. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my colleague for taking and I thank my colleague for taking my intervention. Does he also agree with me that it's an irony? That is only because BAE systems has won the only because BAE systems has won the contract with Norway, that it is able to give work to Ferguson Marine, owned by the Scottish Marine, owned by the Scottish Government, to keep it going. At a time when the Scottish Government was saying we will not have anything to do with defence procurement.

The to do with defence procurement. The irony of that just seems to me to be appalling. When people's jobs are at stake.

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stake. And I have to say that the worst thing about the whole this whole situation, you know, it's fantastic that the these, the contracts came from Norway to the UK and they will from Norway to the UK and they will keep households in jobs for many, many years to come. And there's a many years to come. And there's a fantastic vote of confidence in that workforce and the whole supply chain. But the very, very, very quiet, thank you from the Scottish Government was utterly shameful.

So it's time. It's time for a new government that will not just set ambitious targets, but it will also deliver them and improve the lives of people in Scotland. And people won't be surprised to hear that. I think that.

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That. New government should be led by Anas Sarwar. But I do want to make I do want to make one. One very last point, just just one last sentence. Madam Speaker, as we spoke about

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Madam Speaker, as we spoke about parent and child parliaments and. We've. Spoke about levels of government, and I mean, there's nothing we can do here today to improve the relationship between the Scottish Government and councils in Scotland. But I do think when we talk about these issues in Scotland, I think I think what we have to remember as think what we have to remember as councillors, MSPs and MPs, it's not a hierarchy where all elected by the same people and we're all equal and same people and we're all equal and we're all here to serve, serve those people.

And I think perhaps if we talk, talk that language more in our constituencies, people, residents who come with us in this argument who come with us in this argument about empowering our councils to make real differences in our communities, and that is the devolution that Scotland needs. devolution that Scotland needs. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Speech. Yes, speech.

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Not a chance. Sorry you all heard that. Maureen Burke. Thank you,
17:27
Maureen Burke Portrait Maureen Burke MP (Glasgow North East, Labour)
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Madam Deputy Speaker, can I begin by the. Member of. Caithness, Sutherland and Easter

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Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross for securing it? I am. Acutely aware that this debate is an opportunity, not just for reflection on the past, but a chance to look forward. Over the past two decades.

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The Scottish Parliament has grown, matured and becoming. Become

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grown, matured and becoming. Become a symbol of Scottish life. Its importance and impact on the people of Scotland is. Rightly as relevant, perhaps.

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Rightly as relevant, perhaps. And more so than the. Day to. Day activities in this place.

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Day activities in this place. When it comes to policy on. Education. Housing, the NHS, what people

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Housing, the NHS, what people issues. Those decisions. Are now. Made in Edinburgh, when the

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Made in Edinburgh, when the Labour government. Passed the Scotland Act in 1998, it was an opportunity for us to it was an opportunity for us to tailor policy and solutions to Scotland. Recognising its distinct

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Scotland. Recognising its distinct identity and. Character and bringing. Power closer. To the people. As part of a union.

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As part of a union. Of nations. Devolution is one of my party's. Greatest. Achievements and I am pleased that this.

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that this. Government is working to renew the settlement. Madam Deputy.

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Madam Deputy. Speaker, I think the success of devolution can be judged on two tests. The first.

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tests. The first. Is a technical one of its structure and principles.

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Devolution renews the UK centralised.

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Model of politics. That was as unfit for modern United Kingdom.

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On that first test, Madam Deputy Speaker, deputy devolution has been an. Overwhelming success.

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Overwhelming success. But power for power sake. Is not enough. The second test is very simple.

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very simple. What has devolution. Delivered. Over the past 25 years must be judged on.

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judged on. Whether people and. Constituencies like mine feel a positive and material difference.

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positive and material difference. Has been made to their lives. And

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Has been made to their lives. And Madam Deputy Speaker, there are many success stories from. That last. 25 years, stories that are an

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25 years, stories that are an argument in favour of. Power have been shared and spread out across the UK.

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out across the UK. We were the first UK nation to country. In the world.

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In the world. To legislate for the right to access to free period products, as. Been alluded today by.

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Been alluded today by. Another member. But whilst there are successes, devolved power or are successes, devolved power or rather those holding devolved power have not always used it for good. I

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have not always used it for good. I was a councillor in Glasgow before I took up. My place in this House. And. I witnessed.

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How, year on year, the Scottish Government would centralise power and cut funding for local and cut funding for local authorities. In this respect. Resources were pulled up, not pushed Resources were pulled up, not pushed down. But to be cleared. Madam Deputy Speaker, The outcome of the second test.

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second test. Of delivery is not a failure of devolution. It is a failure of the. SNP in power. When they took power.

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power. In 2007.

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In 2007. Madam speaker. Just to. Explain to the Scottish people why they. Are not in. Power and we are.

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Power and we are. So I'm just going to Gloucester a few things and see what she thinks. Free tuition, free personal care 1100.

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1100. Venture are not a list of items. What is the question? Is there a question?

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question? There is over 100 achievements which you can listen to if she wants, but I'm not going to be

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wants, but I'm not going to be allowed to do so. Does she recognise the real gains and progress that we have made in Scotland? I know they like.

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I know they like. To. Shake down the. SNP. The sitting here. Doing all the usual garden fest. But the.

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But the. Substantial achievements that have been made surely. Labour.

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Party here. In the West of England. We feel. A duty, recognise the achievements that the Labour

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Government has done. yeah.

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yeah. I was, I if I can carry on please. When you took power. In 2007.

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They promised to eradicate. Child poverty. But child poverty rates. Are just. As bad.

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As bad. Today as a real then. And that inequality gap widens in other areas to the gap.

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to the gap. In positive outcomes for school leavers. From the most and least deprived

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From the most and least deprived areas has grown. This is a Japan. This is Japan by a failure in our schools.

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schools. With the attainment gap between the richest. And the poorest pupils. Has also widened.

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widened. A decade. 10,000 children, too many from whom are from my city of Glasgow.

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Glasgow. Are trapped. Without a permanent home. Growing up in a temporary accommodation as

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Scotland's House. Housing crisis deepens. One and. Six.

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Six. Scots, Madam Speaker, are waiting on an NHS waiting list, with. At.

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At. Least 100,000 waiting over a year for treatment. Disgusting. I can

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for treatment. Disgusting. I can compare that with how this Labour. Government is bringing down the waiting times in England.

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Against a backdrop. Of. Failure, next year's Scottish Parliament elections are crucial to.

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Scotland's future. 2026 represents a chance to

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ensure that the next chapter of devolution is defined. By delivery.

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By delivery. Can I just carry on, if you. finished.

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finished. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I said at the start, the success of

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devolution can be judged on two tests. The first was on its structure and principles, and I'm pleased to. Say.

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Say. That devolution. Is now woven. Into the fabric of our nation, an achievement that my party is very achievement that my party is very proud of. But on the second test, how devolved power. Has been

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how devolved power. Has been exercised? That is where I have concern. And that's why I'm convinced. That the only.

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That the only. Way to protect and. Enhance devolved. Power is. For that power to be. Exercised by a Scottish Labour

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Exercised by a Scottish Labour government of vision and drive. Madam Deputy Speaker, the promise

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of. Devolution is a promise of. A better Scotland. And I hope that this is what the

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And I hope that this is what the people. Will vote for next May. You. Thank you. Very Chris Murray. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. And I.

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Congratulate the member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross on supporting this important

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Ross on supporting this important debate on the 25th anniversary of devolution. My constituency in. Edinburgh East and Musselburgh is

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Edinburgh East and Musselburgh is home to many. Of Scotland's jewels. It's a privilege to represent.
17:35
Chris Murray Portrait Chris Murray MP (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh, Labour)
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Edinburgh Castle, Holyrood Palace, the Edinburgh Festivals and Fringe, although I think the the.

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Jokes. We've heard from the opposite benches. But the most important

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building in my seat, indeed in the whole of Scotland, is at the foot of the Royal Mile. Not only. Is it architecturally. A huge.

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A huge. Addition to add to Edinburgh. Scenery. But is where the Scottish. Political heart.

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Political heart. Parliament. The centre of. Scottish political life.

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life. Might sound like a bland. Truism. But it is not. It is. A huge.

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A huge. Achievement to know. Not to think so would be to underestimate. The achievement of devolution.

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Because before. 1999. Critics said devolution. Would amount to an overgrown town council, or that.

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council, or that. It would cause a brain drain. Or that it would almost be. Of interest.

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Of interest. To the political class. And not ordinary Scots. I am of. The devolution. Generation.

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For as long as I can remember, devolution has simply existed. That devolution generation. Is now.

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Is now. Reluctantly facing middle age. But for us. It has become a fact of life. The

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It has become a fact of life. The Parliament. Where decisions that affect our lives are taken. When I. Speak.

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Speak. To community groups or local businesses, the orient themselves businesses, the orient themselves towards Holyrood. When they see the Parliament, they mean that place,

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Parliament, they mean that place, not this one. That is testament to the Scottish Parliament success in establishing itself. As the fulcrum.

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As the fulcrum. Of Scottish political life. But we should consider the counterfactual.

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counterfactual. Imagine if devolution had been education.

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System, justice system, housing. Policy would all receive only scraps of parliamentary time with little scrutiny and even less reform. That would be a democratic affront. It would be so even now, when the government has 37 Scottish MPs. But it would have been an outrage in the last 14 years under a Conservative administration with little Scottish representation. The Scottish Parliament has its flaws, but it is undeniably remedied that democratic deficit, and in doing so, it has removed one of the greatest

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threats to constitutional stability another. On that point?

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On that point? Thank you. Thank you. tribute. To. organising.

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organising. This debate as well. He's as much. An institution as the. Scottish Parliament. Itself is, and the.

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Itself is, and the. Honourable member for. Edinburgh East. Spoke about. heartbeat. Of Scottish politics.

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Of Scottish politics. Isn't it time in the next 25 years to move power out of Edinburgh, to. Devolve power to regions.

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Devolve power to regions. Like. Mine, to. The Highlands, to supercharge. The Highlands. And Islands enterprise into. A Highland Development agency?

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A Highland Development agency? Cutting out. Shut your ears, Inverness. The Moray Firth dynamos of.

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Moray Firth dynamos of. Economic activity and focus. Devolved power on. Transport, on housing. And depopulation, on cultural.

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And depopulation, on cultural. Growth and economic growth in the rural areas of Scotland. With powers being pulled back from into a

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centralised Edinburgh. Yeah. I think the honourable member is making a really important point because what we've seen with the concentration of power in the Scottish Parliament is that actually it doesn't work for cities, it it doesn't work for cities, it doesn't work for rural areas, it doesn't work for the central belt, and it doesn't work for the Highlands and Islands because it Highlands and Islands because it treats Scotland as one monolithic whole and does not address the differences in communities around it.

Because. Which brings me to my next point, which is, although it has been successful in establishing the Scottish Parliament, we have to be honest, where devolution has fallen short and many honourable members here have lead to a litany of failures, whether that is health outcomes being poorer, our skill standards once the envy of Europe falling, the country facing a housing emergency with poverty stubbornly high, the drugs crisis which shames us all, and where we once led the world and setting climate targets, we now lead the world in ditching them.

We have to understand why that happened. And in this debate on devolution, if we think that devolution is only about the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, we get it wrong because in 1999 another institution was created, which was the Scottish Government, then executive, because.

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Yes. And I really do thank you for giving way. And I do envy some of

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the jewels it. Has in his constituency. Of course, but on the point of climate targets, I mean, we are the

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climate targets, I mean, we are the Scottish Government and the Greens and the Greens were complicit in this way. They really got. This.

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This. Wrong. As these targets were set in law, they were endorsed in an election and yet they just dumped them overnight. Is it not one of the them overnight. Is it not one of the most shameful things that ever happened in Holyrood? What happened

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with those targets? Gentlemen, meat gets exactly to the nub of the issue, because what we have seen in Scotland, we've seen we have seen in Scotland, we've seen good debate, we've seen good gestures, we've seen a good discussion, but we haven't seen the concomitant focus on policy, on delivery, on outcomes. The Scottish delivery, on outcomes. The Scottish Parliament has been a success. The Scottish Government has not. And it's important to draw that distinction because we've seen a highly centralised structure concentrate decision making in Saint Andrew's House to the detriment of local communities.

Councils, as we've heard it, have seen both their funding and their influence hollowed out. We've also seen a proliferation out. We've also seen a proliferation of quangos and agencies. There are now more quangos in Scotland than there are members of the Scottish Parliament, and that has an impact that breeds a clientelism and a racism that shuts ordinary people out of decision making processes.

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Yes, I don't. Your government is making a very strong and powerful point. Does he agree with me that actually we have, agree with me that actually we have, as a result of those quangos and things that he's describing, we have actually seen a loss of power to the actually seen a loss of power to the Scottish Parliament, where the MSPs are actually not getting the opportunity to put things forward. And often that's because framework And often that's because framework bills are what the Scottish Government is bringing forward that do not have the proper policy decisions in it, which is why

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decisions in it, which is why implementation of so many pieces of legislation ultimately fails. I think the you may be psychic

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I think the you may be psychic because you've made exactly the point I was about to meet. I couldn't agree with her more, because what this breeds as a culture of gesture and tokenism is, and what that does is it means we sidestep tough choices in Scotland, we duck the trade offs that are we duck the trade offs that are required to implement policy change. We have we now have round tables and We have we now have round tables and co-production as substitute for reform and consultations and strategies as substitutes for strategies as substitutes for action.

I would actually take that argument one step further. When argument one step further. When Labour came to power in 1999, it set about tackling Scotland's pressing problems, as the Chair of the Select problems, as the Chair of the Select Committee has referred to free bus passes, banning smoking in public places, repealing section 28, which I personally will be forever grateful. Pursuing radical homelessness and housing reforms. But fundamentally, that policy agenda had been developed in the 1990s, and the government set about implementing it when it got in.

When the SNP took office in 2007, was their fundamental policy goal of independence. All policy development became shaped around that objective. And I have to say, the fact that independence has not been realised has become the alibi for every policy failure on their watch. But what that means is the Scottish Parliament never became the policy development hub in the Scottish political life. It was denuded of its ability to form ideas and for those to be turned into action and to do the full spectrum of policy development in Scotland, that things like identifying the social problems, working through how the forms would work, weighing up the trade offs, brokering the consent among the people and then turning those ideas into tangible reality in people's lives.

I am a evolutionist, not just because I believe in Scottish representation, but because I believe in the power of the state to change Scottish lives. The Scottish Parliament gave us the locus to debate that, but the Scottish Government had failed to give us the mechanism to operationalise and turn them into reality. It is my assertion, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the Scottish Parliament now stands, along with Magna Carta, the Bill of rights and the Good Friday Agreement, as a firmament of the British constitutional set up.

Donald Jr said it should be not just an end, but a means to a greater end. We have the means now, but with the lamentable we have not used them to

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achieve those ends. And sorry, the. Last 18 years have been heavy on

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Last 18 years have been heavy on argument, short on policy delivery. A different direction is needed to A different direction is needed to fulfil the promise of devolution, which is the devolved government using the power of the state not to using the power of the state not to further its own ambitions, but to materially improve the lives of

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materially improve the lives of Scotland's people. Thank you, thank you. Rekha. Thank you very much. Madam Deputy. Speaker. Can I congratulate my.

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Can I congratulate my. Good friend, the for member Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross and securing this debate, which Ross and securing this debate, which he has led the same erudition and. victorious.

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victorious. Scottish Parliament University Challenge team against our dear colleagues in the Welsh Parliament. colleagues in the Welsh Parliament. This was a mandatory speaker, an early. Win for Scottish devolution, and I know that.

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and I know that. This debate is particularly close to his. Heart, as it is the member for
17:44
Richard Baker Portrait Richard Baker MP (Glenrothes and Mid Fife, Labour)
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Heart, as it is the member for Glasgow West and to Mine, as well as former members of the Scottish Parliament, where we had the great.

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Parliament, where we had the great. Privilege to serve. And today, more than 25. Years after the Parliament.

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after the Parliament. Opened in 1999. It. Is an appropriate. Point to look back over what has

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devolution. And. I remain proud. That it was. The Labour government in 1997

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The Labour government in 1997 through the Scotland that which paved the way. To our Parliament, paved the way. To our Parliament, and since that principle has been established in Scotland, so many

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regions and cities. Across the UK have also embraced that principle of devolution with. Great success.

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Great success. And as we look to the future of our constitutional settlements and our constitutional settlements and reforms of this Parliament, that not the independence of Scotland or fully devolution is not the only constitutional debate we have. I

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constitutional debate we have. I hope we. Will see a. Greater role still for our

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nations and regions here along the lines of Vision by Gordon. Brown in the. Excellent report by his. Commission on the.

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Commission on the. UK's future, and that we have seen devolution of power across.

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The UK. Since the foundation of the Scottish Parliament, I believe, is a

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positive reflection on the process of devolution. In. Scotland as we settled and the

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Scotland as we settled and the tested will of the. Scottish people. And it is also the case that since 1999, significant additional powers 1999, significant additional powers have been devolved to Holyrood, not

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least around income tax, and so is therefore, Madam Deputy. Speaker. So disappointing that while the Scottish National Party have been quick to demand greater devolution of powers to Scotland, they have of powers to Scotland, they have been unable and unwilling to devolve power themselves to local communities in Scotland.

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communities in Scotland. This debate. Is titled Devolution. Speaker. But the sad fact.

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But the sad fact. Is there has been precious. Little devolution. In Scotland itself. Under the SNP, ministers and

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Under the SNP, ministers and Edinburgh have centralised. Power at every turn and. They have eviscerated.

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They have eviscerated. The budgets of our local authorities. And what have they achieved with the powers that they achieved with the powers that they have so ruthlessly retained themselves and have not devolved to themselves and have not devolved to local communities? And with the £5.2 billion additional funding given to the Scottish Government in the

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the Scottish Government in the presided. Over economic. Growth in Scotland, lagging

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Growth in Scotland, lagging behind the rest of the United Kingdom. They failed to support our teachers and pupils, so the teachers and pupils, so the reputation of our education system in Scotland, once the great pride of

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in Scotland, once the great pride of because. Of the. Incompetence of SNP ministers.

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While waiting lists are falling. In the NHS. And England, thanks to the investment secured by The Chancellor investment secured by The Chancellor and its successful stewardship of health services by the Secretary of

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State in Scotland, ministers are for. Health services. And in. Fife we face some of the longest

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Fife we face some of the longest waiting times for surgery of anywhere. In Scotland. And the member for Gordon. Mentioned the

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member for Gordon. Mentioned the very. Sorry statistics. Over drug deaths in Scotland. This is taking a very.

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This is taking a very. Very tragic toll on many. Communities in my constituency.

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And on many families. And when we look. To the wider provision of health.

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Services, and particularly around regarding primary care, it was frankly beyond belief to hear some of the promises being made by John Swinney in regard to walk in appointments at GP surgeries, when appointments at GP surgeries, when Lochgelly in my constituency is still waiting for any indication that work will begin on a new health that work will begin on a new health centre badly needed by the local community, which SNP.

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Ministers first promised over 15 years ago. And we've also. Discussed the centralisation. Of police and fire centralisation. Of police and fire services in Scotland. What has been the result of this police.

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Numbers being cut in the face of. Rising concern over antisocial behaviour? Certainly in my

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constituency and in terms of fire and. Rescue in Lochgelly, we are now facing removal of a fire. Engine. Reduced number of firefighters.

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Reduced number of firefighters. And also. The removal of another appliance in either Glenrothes. Or Methil.

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in either Glenrothes. Or Methil. So no wonder in terms of the. Debate around devolution, the SNP only.

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only. when. Their record on the. Devolution in government. Is so woeful.

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Is so woeful. Labour. Ministers here. Are delivering for Scotland. And what Scottish.

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And what Scottish. Labour offers next year. Not a tired government out of fix. Our NHS.

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Our NHS. Restore our schools, close the opportunity gap, grow our economy

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opportunity gap, grow our economy and bring back community policing for safer. Communities, ensuring record. Scotland.

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Scotland. Is not wasted, but. Actually. Results in the improvements people expect. Need and deserve.

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people expect. Need and deserve. It's Labour ministers who. Are actually devolving. Power on decision making,

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ensuring communities have a real. Say in. What. Will make a difference for them. With two pilot places schemes

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them. With two pilot places schemes in Fife bringing £40. Million. Investment in those communities where it will be most.

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address. At the opening of the Scottish. Parliament, Donald.

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Dewar spoke of the. Shouts of the. Welder in the din. Of the Clyde shipyard. And it's

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Of the Clyde shipyard. And it's this government which has secured. The future of 2000. Jobs at. The Clyde, with a £10.

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The Clyde, with a £10. Billion. Deal with Norway for. New frigates. And in my. Own constituency. The metal yard.

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The metal yard. Was saved from bankruptcy by the actions of this government, as ministers succeeded in ensuring the

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yard was purchased. By the. UK along with our nation. The constituency of Honourable friends.

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constituency of Honourable friends. The. Member for West Myles, saving a metal of jobs of 200 skilled workers and apprentices so the yard can look and apprentices so the yard can look to a bright future to give them that point. I will give way to my old

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point. I will give way to my old friend. Madam speaker. I do feel my colleague has. Been far too modest. I think he played a key role in.

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I think he played a key role in. after. Elected. He was fraught. And worried. And passing these corridors. And

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And passing these corridors. And so I do want to pay tribute to all his work on that. I am very grateful for those kind words from. A friend, for those kind words from. A friend, am renowned for my modesty as he knows, and I think equally modest as a member for the West, Niles and a member for the West, Niles and Labour ministers, he did so much to work on these key issues for our local community. I believe Scotland has a chance now to look to a bright future in May by electing a new government which actually wants devolution, to work with Anas Sarwar as our first minister, replacing a tired Scottish Government ran out of ideas with new leadership, which has already shown it is ambitious for

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Scotland and ready to deliver on the promise of devolution. Here, modesty and politicians not

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Here, modesty and politicians not two words you often hear in the same sentence Brian Leishman and I hope your coffee is better. Thank you. Thank you, Madam

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Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I appreciate that and thanks go to the honourable. Member. For Caithness, Sutherland and

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For Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross. The intense animosity that the Thatcher and major governments created saw the prospect governments created saw the prospect of having more political power based in Scotland, being highly attractive. But devolution has so attractive. But devolution has so far at least been a let down, because the goal of being able to take meaningful decisions more take meaningful decisions more locally has just not been realised, and that is pure political failure. Since devolution, local authorities ability of being vehicles to drive ability of being vehicles to drive meaningful improvements to communities has been reduced because of underfunding.

Power has been of underfunding. Power has been concentrated to big government in Edinburgh, so ironically, the SNP Edinburgh, so ironically, the SNP have ended up repeating Thatcher and Major by diluting the influence that local councillors have. Quite simply, communities need councils to simply, communities need councils to be properly funded by the Scottish Government. Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, deindustrialisation, insecure employment, low wages and child poverty were all features of life in Scotland back in 1999 and they still are because this year Scotland lost our oil refining capacity.

Hundreds of jobs gone. While Grangemouth has pockets of the worst poverty in the country. When you look at statistics from the Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivations and elsewhere, 25% of children in Clackmannanshire will. Go to bed tonight living in poverty. Imagine being born into poverty, existing, not living, existing in poverty, unable to escape poverty. That's the reality of life for millions of Scots today. And what also negatively impacts the life chances and social mobility possibilities of working class communities like mine, is collapse of the Scottish further education sector.

Under this SNP government, something other members have mentioned. Flat cash settlements funding for colleges has been reduced by 20% over the last five years. The principal of Fort Valley College sees that if funding doesn't change, then Alloa will close in

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2026. Scotland will. Close. In 2027 and more than likely,

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In 2027 and more than likely, Falkirk will close in 2028. Colleges are on the brink. Living standards are on the brink. Living standards and life chances are plummeting in Scotland. The SNP have been in Scotland. The SNP have been in charge for nearly two decades. This is on them and if any nationalist dare say what about Wales or the statistics and are worse in England statistics and are worse in England than they are showing themselves up, because to use someone else's because to use someone else's poverty and hardship is some sort of perverse justification for the

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perverse justification for the object governance they. Have had. In Holyrood. Then they are. Showing themselves up as not

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Showing themselves up as not being these bastions of socialism that they say they are because socialist, let me tell you, they
17:54
Brian Leishman Portrait Brian Leishman MP (Alloa and Grangemouth, Independent)
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socialist, let me tell you, they know that poverty is a political failure when it impacts any or every

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community. The report card. For the Scottish Parliament says

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For the Scottish Parliament says that it must do better. But let's be honest, the fact councils are underfunded and colleges are in underfunded and colleges are in crisis is ultimately not the failure of devolution. These failures are of devolution. These failures are down to the people in charge. This SNP government, for the sake of

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SNP government, for the sake of devolution and for the sake of Scotland, we need a change next May. I thank.

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I thank. You, Madam Speaker. I welcome the

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member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross for bringing forward this debate and as my honourable friends Kirkcaldy, including Beith. Pointed out.

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Pointed out. Earlier, I am a. Member of the devolution. Generation and as my honourable friend from Edinburgh East and friend from Edinburgh East and Musselburgh. Pointed out, some of us and the devolution generation are still in our 20s and to the best of

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still in our 20s and to the best of Scotland's. National elected. Representatives, I was the first

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Representatives, I was the first of Scotland's national representatives to be born after the creation of the Scottish Parliament. These reflections.

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On the. Successes and failures of devolution in the last 25 years are critical to devolution generation. The current constitutional settlement may still be under debate in some corners, but I hope one thing unites us across this House in support for a Scottish Parliament, democratically. Elected by the

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people of Scotland, the eternal words of the Scotland Act 1998. Saying. There shall be a Scottish

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There shall be a Scottish Parliament. Equal proudly, not just as the long won praise of the campaigning of politicians in this campaigning of politicians in this place and across Scotland, but as a definitive, decisive decision by the Scottish people that there will be Scottish people that there will be an institution governing many of our priorities directly representative of the Scottish people. The
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Euan Stainbank Portrait Euan Stainbank MP (Falkirk, Labour)
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of the Scottish people. The existence of a Scottish Parliament has a far greater mandate than any individual politician or government ever has, or will have. 80% of voters in Falkirk back devolution. In 1997, the first Scottish In 1997, the first Scottish Parliament returned both Cathy RT and Denis Canavan as folks to constituency MSPs to the Falkirk area, both people who have made an immense contribution to. Our.

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An electoral system which permitted it is not a perfect, but a far preferable representative voting far preferable representative voting system. However, being a proud evolutionist, we cannot get caught in the trap of nostalgia or defence

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in the trap of nostalgia or defence of the status quo is a reminder that Scotland's parliaments and two governments must always. Do better. In the interest of the Scottish

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In the interest of the Scottish people, not just as our core purpose, but especially now as an

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purpose, but especially now as an essential antidote to the enemies of democracy. I find that the perception of my generation. And those.

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And those. Who have only ever known devolution, who have not known a world before the Scottish. Parliament, is.

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Parliament, is. A critical juncture. One of the most remarkable conversations I. Had was recently. With a group of young. Carers in my constituency. They

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Carers in my constituency. They were buzzing with remarkable ideas and suggestions. And clear, pragmatic ideas.

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About how their community can be improved. Support for carers, yes, but also more accessible high street but also more accessible high street safety for women and girls, public transport, all things within the core competency of their local council or the Scottish Parliament.

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council or the Scottish Parliament. We should strongly. Welcome that there is a burgeoning generation of young representatives and leaders in

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representatives and leaders in Falkirk and across Scotland, many of whom, with direct. Life experience. Of the systems, devolved.

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Legislature know governance and has for the last 25 years. The question then returns to us and our colleagues in the Scottish

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Parliament how we are going to, in. This. Next phase of devolution. Empower them. To lead and make better decisions

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To lead and make better decisions than those that came before them. And what sticks. Out. To me. When I have.

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These refreshing conversations with bright young folk at Burns, is how much young people tend to agree on both the priorities and how politicians should be collaborating to deliver them, how governments do things, how reasoned young people things, how reasoned young people are and holding politicians to account, and how much of what. of.

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of. Is relevant to their local area. For the devolution generation, one of the greatest assets we have is now a generation that are engaged in the local area with the political, language and skills to fight for their their communities corners. their their communities corners. That is progress. What was it 16 secured in 2016 for the Scottish parliamentary election, now.

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Delivered here. Under this Labour government? However, there is an element of trust that is being eroded in a trust that is being eroded in a politics. I would say uniquely in Scotland it is structural and is long term. I have no qualms in long term. I have no qualms in stating that Tory austerity was one of the predominant factors in the decline we have seen on various fronts in Scotland and across the

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fronts in Scotland and across the UK, but it is my constituents that see the devolved settlement has not manoeuvred. Strategically or.

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Strategically or. Effectively to maintain an achievable rate of progress under those circumstances. The challenges

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devolution face is an issue that is common to this place as well. A lack of delivery that. My constituents.

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My constituents. Can see and that they can feel. When the former First Minister, now

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over ten years ago that said that she wanted to. Be judged on and. Prioritise closing the attainment gap and. Then subsequently barely made a

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Then subsequently barely made a dent in it, that sort of gap between rhetoric and delivery. Undermines the.

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Undermines the. Public's faith in this. Parliament as an institution, as it does the lack of accountability. Afterwards or. The willingness.

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The willingness. To be held accountable. For this failure directly. Here.

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Not all. But I will give way. Giving way. After a quarter of a century of Labour rule in Wales with child poverty the worse of all nations of the UK and Wales, is this

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nations of the UK and Wales, is this the reason the collapse of the support for Labour in Caerphilly and tomorrow people will be turning to play the camera. Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah, the people of Wales and how they choose to vote in the same way that I imagine the.

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that I imagine the. Scottish people wouldn't say for the Scots. I think my hon. Friend from Alloa and Grangemouth put it very well that just simply.

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put it very well that just simply. Picking. A different nation in the UK to tackle a policy issues is getting. Exhausting, and especially when it.

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it. Comes from nationalist benches. Yeah, not all, but part of the problem with the failure. To close the attainment.

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Gap, as many honourable members of spoke about and the broader loss of trust we are seeing in our politics was due to disproportionate

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politics was due to disproportionate budget cuts which have landed. At the door of. Local authorities. Having been a they.

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Are at the. Coalface delivering the services that our constituents most. Acutely see. And. Have seen the evidence of

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And. Have seen the evidence of decline with. Especially in recent years, where council tax. 11.

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11. settlements. there's. A. Stunt that the SNP conference in 2023.

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2023. arms. challenges. We. See in social care and. Infrastructure are tied in with

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Infrastructure are tied in with local authorities. This is where politics is most tangibly felt by our constituents, and it is currently failing them. Even with. A 5.2.

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A 5.2. Billion increase. Secured by these benches. For. Scotland, Falkirk. Council was. Only. Allocated an additional 5.

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Only. Allocated an additional 5. Million in revenue funding this year from the. Scottish Government. Where has the rest of the money gone? John Colleges in Scotland is

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gone? John Colleges in Scotland is again vulnerable. Friends from Alloa and Grangemouth. Touched. Upon our at. Crisis points, with years of

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Crisis points, with years of systematic underfunding from the Scottish Government. See a. 20% cut in funding over the.

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20% cut in funding over the. Last five years. Many of those shrunk. Their staff numbers offer fewer courses to world class students at a time in which the.

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students at a time in which the. Skills. They provide are at their most valuable. Forth Valley College put in the position of being an essential provider.

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Of training and skills was Grangemouth undergoes an industrial crisis and requires major investment for transition.

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for transition. Are a hugely. Valuable local provider of. Jobs, opportunities and training. Is now consulting on the closure of Is now consulting on the closure of that Alloa campus. It's going in the wrong direction. Scotland's civic infrastructure should have been enhanced and resilient and protected by devolution, but in too many places it has not been protected

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places it has not been protected just to turn to the situation of. Alexander Denis. When they announced their consultation on 400

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announced their consultation on 400 Scotland. There was. To the credit engagement. Eventually from the Scottish

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Eventually from the Scottish Government. Ten months after the company initially. Suggested that they were going to depart Scotland

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they were going to depart Scotland if something wasn't done. After the scandalous Scott Z2 scheme sent less than 20%. Of all those to. Scotland's sole manufacturer.

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Scotland's sole manufacturer. But there has been improvements. In how we in this place, under this Labour government. Work with the administration.

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Work with the administration. In Edinburgh, is the Deputy First Minister there very, I think, accurately pointed out recently the

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accurately pointed out recently the quick engagement from my honourable friend from Edinburgh South and his team of Scottish Secretary was invaluable in that conversation. Progressing quickly.

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Progressing quickly. But the truth is, when this sort of crisis arrives in one of our industrial assets, something we industrial assets, something we should all intrinsically value a bus manufacturer which has existed long before the inception of the Scottish Parliament and long before any of us were our rivals, should have taken action much earlier. At a strategic level, designing procurement through

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the powers of the Scottish Parliament to have to retain a pipeline of orders. Funded by taxpayer.

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Money for buses built in Scotland, not those built in China. I will give you honourable friend a I will give you honourable friend a faint vocabulary on that point. He's setting out really eloquently a whole host of policy challenges that whole host of policy challenges that we face in Scotland as industrial strategy, opportunities for the young, provision and further education. Does he agree with me education. Does he agree with me that when the Government of Scotland says the answer to every single one of these is independence, that shuts down any thinking on what you actually need to do to tackle those actually need to do to tackle those challenges and dilute Scotland of the ability to think through how we deal with the challenge of the real community.



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community. So yeah. I did even more honourable friend by accepting undermines the message in section one of the Scotland Act in section one of the Scotland Act 1988, there shall be a Scottish Parliament with the powers to fix these policy challenges. It's the these policy challenges. It's the reason we're proud evolutionist in this place. We want the Scottish Parliament that can address the issues under its competency. And it issues under its competency. And it does shut down debate. It shuts down the idea that there is something better that we can achieve in all of

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better that we can achieve in all of our constituents interests. As I said on Alexander Denis, we should never have been in a position where a company warned. About. The loss.

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About. The loss. Of critical and necessary industry. In. Scotland, especially as we seek to achieve our net zero goals.

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And it took. Over a year for this piece of action to be taken to prevent it. Even though I do welcome it. A devolved government with a serious interest in standing up for Scotland beyond it being a slogan, would not beyond it being a slogan, would not and should not have let it get to that point across in this place, in the Scottish Government and within the Scottish Government and within our Cabinet, schools that have been hard pressed for far too many years under a government I hope gets replaced next year.



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We must do better. Scotland demands better and demands better things because.

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demands better things because. Johanna Baxter. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Deputy Speaker, and I thank the honourable member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross for securing this important debate. The last Labour government had many last Labour government had many remarkable achievements. Sure starts the national minimum wage, the Human the national minimum wage, the Human Rights Act. But right up there amongst our proudest was delivering amongst our proudest was delivering devolution to Scotland. Our vision rooted in the belief that communities are best placed to make local decisions that shape their lives.

And I know it might age me somewhat, Madam Deputy Speaker, but somewhat, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I was proud to be active in the campaign for the establishment of the Scottish Parliament. I was proud the Scottish Parliament. I was proud to campaign for a Scottish Parliament that had tax bearing powers. And I've still got my yes yes t shirt to prove it. We've seen the success of devolution in London, Manchester, Liverpool with better transport, more housebuilding, more investment in grassroots sports. When power is put in the hands of those who know their communities best, devolution delivers.

But I fear that in Scotland, the obsession of the SNP government in Holyrood with seeking to rerun referendum after referendum has paralysed government north of the border. Their endless fixation on independence has come at the expense of delivering the promise. More homes but built a housing crisis. They pledged to strengthen our NHS but put party politics over patients And instead of serving Scotland, they've sunk to sleaze and scandal and councils across our country are on their knees over funding cuts year after year.

Local government funding in Scotland over the last 18 years has fallen 42% less than it would have had it been kept, had it kept up with inflation. In a summer interview promoting her catalogue of career failures, Nicola Sturgeon admitted she might leave Scotland for a week while the great champion for independence. Now fleeing the wreck, her party has created, while London, Manchester and Liverpool reap the rewards of devolution. Done properly, Scotland for the last 18 years has been left with a government more interested in constitutional games than the real business of governing.

And whilst that might be a game to some of those opposite, the consequences for my constituents are very real and I will speak to one example. So whilst the Scottish Government has been handed the largest funding settlement in the history of devolution by this Labour government, in my constituency of Paisley and Renfrewshire South, the SNP run health and social care partnership is swinging the axe on vital frontline services to plug a £19 million black hole in their budget that they themselves created.

Right now, the SNP run health and social care partnership in Paisley and Renfrewshire South are holding voluntary severance talks across the partnership, cutting jobs, gutting services and hollowing out the services, which have already been stripped to the bone. Users of the Disability Resource Centre, which is a lifeline for people living with physical disabilities, many of whom reside in my constituency, now face a review of their fees and transport costs, backdated to April. And that potentially means bills of more than £1,000 hitting the doorsteps of some of the most vulnerable people in our community, driving them out the back door and slamming it shut on the vital services that they rely on across Renfrewshire.

Madam Deputy Speaker, last year the SNP locally were humiliated into a U-turn on a proposed merger of the Mirren and Mill Deal Day Care and Day centre after brave campaigners stood up to say no to cuts to the vital services their families rely on. Yet last month the SNP locally dragged back the same cruel proposal, putting the same families through the same anguish all over again. It's cynical, it's calculated and it's downright cruel. And don't just take my word for it.

The words of Linda Murray, member of the Renfrewshire Learning Disability carers group, who said last month we knew it was not a done deal. Last year we basically got a stay of execution, were tired, were exhausted. It took a lot out of all of us and we

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expected to at least get a couple of years. Grace. Madam Deputy Speaker, we've seen

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Madam Deputy Speaker, we've seen all of this before. Just like their endless independence obsession, the endless independence obsession, the SNP ignore the will of the people and grind our communities down until exhaustion delivers them the outcome exhaustion delivers them the outcome they demand. But that is not democracy. It is harassment of democracy. It is harassment of vulnerable families and the result the most vulnerable people in my the most vulnerable people in my community, robbed of the care that they rely on, that is not just a failure of leadership.

It is a disgrace. The SNP lead for the local disgrace. The SNP lead for the local Integrated Joint Board said the Eib's financial challenges have been well documented and I rarely say this. Madam Deputy Speaker of the SNP, but I happen to agree with her. SNP, but I happen to agree with her. Those financial challenges have been well documented. So why have haven't well documented. So why have haven't the local SNP representatives challenged their own government in Holyrood to get them the money that they rely on, especially when they have been given such a generous financial settlement from this financial settlement from this Labour government? In truth, it has been 18 wasted years, years of scandal, years of sleaze, years of division.

Whilst skills in my communities have been subject to decline, our hospitals struggling and our services face collapse. This is not about money because they have the money. This is not about powers, because they have the powers. This is about excuses. And for the SNP government in Holyrood, they have no excuses left. Scotland deserves better, our NHS deserves better, our local people deserve better. And next year the people of Scotland, Madam Deputy Speaker, can choose a new and fresh direction with the Scottish Labour Government, led by Anas Sarwar.



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Today. Thank you. Madam. Deputy Speaker, and I thank the

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Deputy Speaker, and I thank the member opposite for securing the reflective. Speech and opening it.

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Speech and opening it. Although the Scottish Parliament may be a place hotly of hotly debated politics, the importance of

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unquestionable. It is. Right to refer to devolution and the Scottish Parliament as the the Scottish Parliament as the central will of the Scottish people. As predicted, it has become a cornerstone for Scottish democracy

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cornerstone for Scottish democracy in the UK. But closing the political and social. Gap between the decision makers.

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Gap between the decision makers. And the people, those decisions impact. Cannot and should not stop.

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impact. Cannot and should not stop. A devolution from London to Edinburgh. From this place to Holyrood. In recent years we've seen the

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benefits. Of further devolving power and funding to city regions across the. UK, with the ability.

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UK, with the ability. Of local level to create and tailor policies to better serve communities in Scotland. However,

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communities in Scotland. However, devolution appears to have stalled at Holyrood. In recent years, the SNP has followed the principle. Of devolution.

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Of devolution. For me and. little. Appetite from the Scottish.

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Government to pass power. And more funding to the Glasgow City region and other communities across Scotland. Devolution has

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effectively stalled. This is even though further. Devolution is the logical

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Devolution is the logical power. Sharing, representation and accountability that were pivotal in the.

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the. Creation of the Scottish Parliament in the first place. Such continuation of devolution.

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Such continuation of devolution. Is so important for the Glasgow Metropolitan Region. As a. City region with a. Well-developed and established Well-developed and established collaboration system. This includes the City Deal, one of the largest in the.

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the. UK, the UK Government's Shared. Prosperity Fund and the City Region Innovation Accelerator, just to name a few. These investments have already delivered jobs and major regeneration for areas across the Glasgow City region.

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the Glasgow City region. Proof that the Glasgow region. Can handle more responsibility while also creating a case for more

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while also creating a case for more necessary accountability and governance. The Glasgow. City region.

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Is. Now at a point where the Scottish Government needs to look at, with the Glasgow City. Region and a range of policy

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areas and levers powers over, for example. Transport, housing, skills, economic development, public service

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economic development, public service reform to devolve those appropriate powers to allow the Glasgow City. Region to. Tailor its policies to

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Region to. Tailor its policies to the needs of our communities. For our communities, this. Could mean better buses that turn up on time. People are no longer on the housing waiting lists for years and years, and more opportunities for neglected communities.

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responsibilities. Must be. Based on strategic. Aims, providing. The processes.

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The processes. To deliver the policies to achieve those aims, and. Those processes must be.

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Accountable and. Transparent with robust governance. But all of. This must. Be. Rooted in the outcomes.

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Rooted in the outcomes. That. We want to achieve, to reduce. Inequality and poverty. To improve access to healthcare and

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improve access to healthcare and improve health outcomes. To create. New jobs and opportunities.

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New jobs and opportunities. A recent. Report by the Centre of Cities makes this case for further devolution too, as they estimate.

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devolution too, as they estimate. If Glasgow performed. In line with cities of comparable size.

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Scotland's economy could be 4.6% larger. When I campaigned with so many others.

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many others. For the. Parliament. During the referendum. In 1997, it was to devolve powers

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In 1997, it was to devolve powers from this place as appropriate to the Scottish Parliament, not for those powers and responsibilities to

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those powers and responsibilities to then be hoarded by Holyrood, but as part of a wider process to devolve. Power down.

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Power down. Through local government and to communities and citizens. During next. Year's Scottish election. The

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Year's Scottish election. The Scottish people again have an opportunity to revitalise. Devolution by electing a Scottish

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Labour government and then, as committed. To the principle of devolution. To deliver on the priorities of

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To deliver on the priorities of the Scottish people instead of can. Build on the successes.

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Build on the successes. Of the Scottish Parliament and develop a stronger Scottish Parliament, made stronger not by grasping on to. Powers.

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Powers. But by devolving powers further. We can renew the commitment to devolution, where we can use the

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devolution, where we can use the commitment to empower communities, a renewed direction. All of this in the service of the

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Scottish people. I come to the Liberal Democrat spokesperson Susan Murray. Thank you

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very much. Madam Deputy. Speaker. And I.

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Thank the honourable member for. Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross for bringing. Attention to the matter. As my colleagues have made. Clear.

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Clear. devolution. Our votes pushed. It over.

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The line in 1999, delivering a Scottish Parliament. And making decision. people.

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people. And we remain proud of that achievement. And we want that

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achievement. And we want that devolution to extend to councils and to communities. Yet the. Sad reality is that the

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Sad reality is that the opportunities presented to. Scotland by devolution. Has been squandered.

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Years of financial mismanagement, failed education reforms and endless NHS recovery plans.

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NHS recovery plans. Have let Scots down. After nearly two decades in office. The SNP.

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The SNP. Have proved every bit. As adept at. Failing the people.

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Of Scotland as they have accused the conservatives of being. We've watched the SNP divert. Half a. Billion.

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Billion. From green energy initiatives simply to plug budget gaps. We've
18:17
18:17
18:17
Susan Murray Portrait Susan Murray MP (Mid Dunbartonshire, Liberal Democrat)
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Party's own finances. Conservative. Curtains and cupboards. Are no.

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Goal. But the. SNP motorhomes. Are all right. Despite these

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Are all right. Despite these failures and the. Clear rejection of independence, the SNP continue to.

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the SNP continue to. Demand referenda. In 2014. The time was right and the people

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The time was right and the people of Scotland said no. In 2016. The time was. Right again and the courts

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Right again and the courts rejected it. Now. In 2025, they repeat the same

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mantra a vote once described. As once in a generation has.

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As once in a generation has. instead. Of. Working. For the. Scottish people, they flog the.

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Scottish people, they flog the. Same tired cause. The Liberal Democrats offer a different vision a fair deal for Scotland with a.

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fair deal for Scotland with a. Strong within a strong. Federal United Kingdom.

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We want decisions taken as close to communities as. communities. To shape their future.

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To shape their future. But cooperation. At the federal. Level is vital to tackle the

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Level is vital to tackle the challenges we face as a nation. This is why liberal Democrats. Want to see. A. Joint council of.

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A. Joint council of. The nations. Driving innovation and. Coordinated action to tackle. The climate emergency. We want to

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The climate emergency. We want to secure agreement through the common frameworks and a fair. Dispute resolution. Process, so that.

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Process, so that. administrations. Are resolved maturely. Not

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Are resolved maturely. Not through endless political games. And we. Want. Stronger joint ministerial.

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Work on issues like the industrial strategy, ensuring every nation's voice is heard and shaping

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nation's voice is heard and shaping our economy. This kind of. Cooperation delivers results. Drawing on.

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nations. Not tearing them. Apart and playing politics with

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Apart and playing politics with people's futures. Scotland deserves experienced.

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experienced. It deserves co-operation. Certainty and a government. That listens. And I look forward to the

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And I look forward to the Scottish elections next year, with more Liberal Democrat. MSPs entering the Scottish Parliament.

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the Scottish Parliament. To work. Hard in the interest of Scottish people of all ages. Thank you.

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people of all ages. Thank you. Bowie. Thank you very much. Madam Deputy

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Speaker, can I start. By congratulating the honourable member. For Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross for securing at the
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18:21
Johanna Baxter Portrait Johanna Baxter MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Labour)
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When we assess. Devolution, we must. Consider whether it has indeed. Brought. Power closer to communities,

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Power closer to communities, whether it fosters. Accountability and whether it delivers essential services for Scots and indeed across services for Scots and indeed across Scotland, to a high standard. Madam Deputy Speaker under the Scottish Nationalists, the system is not delivering for Scotland. The creeping transfer of powers from communities to Hollywood undermines the core ambition of delivering power into local hands. While the civil service in Edinburgh is fed to the point of bloating, power is usurped from local authorities and delivered to centralised decision makers.

Now, in 1995, the Liberal Secretary of State for Scotland, a satisfactory state for Scotland, predicted that devolution would kill separatism stone dead, that delivering power to the Scottish Executive, then creating a Scottish Parliament would satiate the separatist appetite. Sadly, that has turned out not to be the case in the 2015, in the wake of the failed bid for independence, the Smith Review was commissioned to set out provisions for greater devolution, and from that experiment, we now know it matters not how much is given.

It will never be enough for the nationalists. The nationalists in Scotland brae out for more, more, more, while serving less and less and less. So today I implore the Minister, the Secretary of State, on this government to be brave and stand firm in support of our United Kingdom and to move away from the devolve and forget mentality. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Scotland always delights give way. I'm very grateful to him and I'm wondering. The Labour Party did some analysis that showed that Liz Truss's mini-budget cost homeowners in the UK £336 billion, about 5 or 6 times the budget of the Scottish Parliament.

What impact does he think that had on devolution and the trust in this institution? Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I thank the member for his intervention. You know, when the Scottish Parliament was established and when the Scottish Executive and our government was created, I think the Scottish people expected it to do a little bit better than continually comparing its record and role to the role of the UK government. I think people are frankly fed up of England is worse or they're doing worse and they would like some accountability and responsibility to be held by those who are elected to Holyrood and indeed hold power over vast swathes of life in Scotland.

I think we all agree that mistakes made, some mistakes were made under the last Conservative administration, some. But that does not in any way excuse the honourable member for never once, never once standing in this place and resigning or showing any contrition to the litany of mistakes and to the sheer disaster that has befallen some of the public services that our constituents, represented by most of the MPs in this room, have to suffer day in and day out, from the falling standards in education to falling standards in Scotland's NHS to, to, to, to, to, to fewer and services at the local level from closing libraries and indeed transport infrastructure failing to even meet at the level at which it was at in 1997, when the referendum was indeed held.

We acknowledge our mistakes and we acknowledge that we didn't get everything right over the last 14 years. It would be quite nice if one day a Scottish National Party Member of Parliament was able to do the same about their administration in Edinburgh. Scots now face the highest tax burden anywhere in the UK, with little to show for it. Under the Scottish Nationalists, the standard of services, education, health care, policing has taken a severe blow. Waiting lists scroll longer. Police Scotland faces cuts, violence in schools is rising outcomes and education and health lagged behind those in England despite more funding per child.

Scottish pupils are falling behind despite higher per capita spending on health care. Life expectancy is lower and more patients wait over two years for treatment. The NHS in Scotland has recovered less well from the pandemic and the challenge is ruled out. Rurality and deprivation are real, but they are not excuses. Under the Scottish Nationalists, Scots pay more and get less. Now let us be absolutely clear devolution is not the problem. The problem is the party in power in Edinburgh, a party that clamours for more powers, more control and more devolution and yet fails to deliver on the powers it already holds, a party that centralises duplicates and bloats the civil service in Edinburgh.

Whilst outcomes deteriorate. Just last week we had broken record of SNP regurgitate plans to tear apart our United Kingdom, including reports of £10,000 of taxpayers money spent on a pro-independence propaganda campaign. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the party opposite whether they plan to get a grip on this and prevent the Scottish Government from spending UK taxpayer money on research and advertising on their obsession for independence. It's time for the SNP to focus on the priorities that matter to Scots.

Madam Deputy Speaker, devolution of greater powers over welfare were implemented through the Scotland Act in 2016. Yet here we are, nearly a decade later, still seeing statutory instruments coming through Westminster to tidy up the unfinished business of devolved welfare responsibilities. The duplication, the inefficiency, the in efficacy is staggering and that is only the beginning. The fears of the Scottish Government under the nationalists are not a foreign concern. One of the problems that has resulted from devolution is the fact that Scottish issues Welsh issues, and a majority of Northern Irish issues failed to be debated on the floor of this high school performance, crashing down the international tables, rising anti-social behaviour, falling police numbers.

These are not just Scottish issues, they are issues for all of us in this United Kingdom, so we on the side will no longer accept, devolve and forget mentality. It has allowed the Scottish Government to evade scrutiny and accountability. For far too long, though, my MSP colleagues, led fantastically by Russell Findlay in the Scottish Conservatives, work tirelessly in Holyrood to hold the SNP account. It is also it is also our job here in the sovereign Parliament of the United Kingdom to hold them to account.

And if it were not for the bold and absolutely correct decision of our previous Secretary of State, Alister Jack, and now leader of the opposition, to stand up to the absurd Gender Recognition Reform Bill, we would have biological man and women's spaces, prisons, refuges, bathrooms, changing spaces. A bill, by the way, which, although implemented and brought forward by the Scottish National Party, was supported by Scottish Labour, which it seems also, by the way, seems to be supported by the Reform Party.

According to the Justice Advisory, a bill which the Labour Party have since conceded they were wrong to support. Which begs the question did they actually read the bill? Madam Deputy Speaker at the time so we and the Conservative Party will not stand by in this place. While drugs deaths ravage communities in Glasgow, whilst children from deprived backgrounds suffer the most from poor educational opportunities in what was once the envied schooling system of the world. While the concerns and safety of women and girls in prisons and protect spaces girls in prisons and protect spaces is ignored and trivialised, we will not stand idly by and allow the Scottish Nationalists to fail Scots Scottish Nationalists to fail Scots so tremendously.

We refuse to devolve and forget. Madam Deputy devolve and forget. Madam Deputy Speaker, 25 years on from the creation of the Scottish Parliament, it is time to take stock and reflect it is time to take stock and reflect on the successes, but also the failures of that institution and its government to evaluate not just the structure of devolution, but the structure of devolution, but the performance of those entrusted with its powers. We remain committed to devolution, but we on this side of devolution, but we on this side of the House will not shy away from asking, but the current settlement is delivering for Scots.

is delivering for Scots.
18:28
Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie MP (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, Conservative)
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Minister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I welcome today's debate on devolution because at its heart, this is really a discussion about how we deliver better outcomes for the people of Scotland. And that objective is what has long animated the public service of my honourable friend for Glasgow West and the honourable member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, and I am grateful to them for securing this debate today, and I am particularly grateful to my Honourable friend for Glasgow West for the very moving tribute she paid to our departed friends, Donald Dewar and John Smith.

I am incredibly proud that Labour is the party of devolution, and it was a Labour government which delivered the Scottish Parliament in 1999. I do not wish to pay tribute or give thanks to my hon. From Edinburgh East and Musselburgh, or for Falkirk, for the trolling about the fact that they did not, like so many of us, come of age during that devolution debate. I am proud to say that the vote in favour of a Scottish Parliament is the first ballot that I ever cast, and since that time, I have never wavered in my belief that Scotland's interests are well served by being part of our union of nations and at the same time having a Parliament in Scotland which can reflect the distinctive interests and needs of Scotland.

Those of you who can cast your mind back to the beginning of this debate some hours ago, may remember that the honourable for member Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross and Right honourable friend from Glasgow West raised some important points about what we might be able to learn in terms of the operations and procedures of each Parliament. The member from Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross mentioned that he would like ministers to be more accessible, as I want to give this undertaking on the floor of the House that I hope for myself and the Secretary of State.

You will always find Scotland Office ministers accessible to you. And can you use me? Thank you Minister. Apologies. Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope members across this House will always find us accessible to them and willing to make the case of your constituents to members across government. The member for Glasgow West said that she felt we should spend less time in the lobbies. And I just want to underscore, I am delighted to be

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spending so much time with you all in the lobbies. I hope you take. Sorry. All apologies, Madam Deputy

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All apologies, Madam Deputy Speaker. My mistake. And the honourable member for Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey said he would Nairn and Strathspey said he would like to focus some of this debate on the state of the health service in Scotland. We would be delighted to address that because, as we have heard repeatedly on the floor of heard repeatedly on the floor of this House today, if you live south of the border, you are experiencing more and more appointments being available and waiting lists going down.

If you live up the road, 1 in down. If you live up the road, 1 in 6 of us are on a waiting list. My honourable friend from Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch, who I would like and Kirkintilloch, who I would like to thank for her service in the NHS, has relayed that so movingly. Likewise, my honourable friend from Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, who has Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, who has spoken movingly about what patients in her area experience. The honourable member for Gordon and honourable member for Gordon and Buchan has talked about paused capital health spending in her constituency, and I am very sorry to constituency, and I am very sorry to hear it.

I would advise her to ask the SNP government about the record settlement that they had in the devolution and where the money, the devolution era and where the money has gone. That could have been put to good use for patients in her to good use for patients in her area. The shadow Secretary of State has asked that this government be unequivocal in our support for the United Kingdom, and I am pleased to confirm that we are. But we recognise that support for this family of nations is partly dependent on this government's delivery here in Westminster, and we are focussed on delivering for Scots and cleaning up the mess that his party left.

His party colleague, the honourable member from Dumfries and Galloway, accused us of focusing too much on trade promotion. Guilty as charged. You could almost taste the envy about the three trade deals that have been secured under this government, and I am pleased to confirm that we will continue to promote Scotland's world class products and services to the world, and will do so proudly without apology. Yes.

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The honourable member. I certainly do. Oh, thank you very much, Madam

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Oh, thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I thank the Minister for giving way there. She will agree that the work on those treaty was begun under the previous

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begun under the previous administration. Yeah. Madam Deputy Speaker, credit for these trade deals fits with those who got them over the line. This is a Labour government that has a Labour government that has delivered comprehensively for Scotland's world class producers and services, and we're delighted to services, and we're delighted to have done so. The honourable member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry said that we should really be having a that we should really be having a debate about accountability, and I agree with him.

We do have more quango chiefs than MSPs in Scotland because it is actually very difficult to hold those who deliver public services and spend public public services and spend public money in Scotland to account, which is why Anas Sarwar is so intent on bringing back accountability and

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bringing back accountability to elected members. Thank you. And I thank the minister and for that. On the point of accountability in the Scottish Parliament, all parliamentarians are Parliament, all parliamentarians are elected. Does she think that all parliamentarians should be elected in this place as well? Following that?

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that? Madam? Madam Deputy Speaker, we are focussed on the priorities of the people of Scotland. We have a constantly constitutional questions and questions about second order concerns from the benches opposite. We will resolutely focus on jobs and pay in Scotland as we were elected to do. The members from Glasgow North and Falkirk and the Honourable friend from Glenrothes and Mid Fife have led the charge at the SNP's door, and I agree with it that they are much more interested in devolution to Scotland than devolution inside Scotland.

And I would argue that devolution, Madam Deputy Speaker, is a habit of mind, a habit of mine that the SNP are yet to acquire. So interested are they in centralising the power in their own hands in Edinburgh? Devolution in Scotland has always been about ensuring our distinctive voice is heard within the United Kingdom. This government has continued in this vein since taking office. We have reset the relationship with the Scottish Government to be one based on delivery and partnership. But the question now is how Scotland's two governments, together with our local communities, can best seize the opportunities granted by artificial intelligence, clean energy, advanced manufacturing, life sciences, defence and the digital industries.

We cannot, despite the insistence of members opposite. We cannot do this through division or constant constitutional wrangling, and we heard from members of opposite that they would like to return to the days, the 14 years for the SNP and the Tories had a symbiotic relationship where each served the other's political ends because they were locked in a dance of grievance rather than with a focus on delivery. Our approach is a Labour government is different, we say. We may not agree on everything between different levels of government, but we can and must agree on more and we can and must agree on enough to make a difference to the people that we serve.

And already we have seen results from having a Labour government with Scots at its beating heart. The biggest upgrade to workers rights in a generation, with a pay rise for 200,000 of the lowest paid Scots. A new industrial strategy to ensure Scotland takes advantage of the jobs of the future GB energy with investment to drive the clean energy revolution. Up to 60,000 clean energy jobs in Scotland by 2030, a 40,000 increase from 2023. £200 million secured for the industrial future of Grangemouth, a historic Norway deal worth £10 billion to supply Norway with Type 26 frigates.

A trade deal with India set to grow the Scottish economy by £180 million a year, the highest estimate for the Scottish Government in the devolution era, and a £292 million Pride in Place investment to regenerate Scottish communities. This is what delivery looks like. Let us contrast it, however, with the record of the SNP so poignantly pointed out by my honourable friend from Paisley and Renfrewshire South and the honourable member for Mid Dunbartonshire. There is much to be proud of, but we are under no illusion on this side of the House.

Scotland's economy has underperformed and is particularly underperformed in the service of working people, as pointed out so eloquently by my honourable friend from Airdrie and Shots, and the honourable member from Alloa and Grangemouth. If Scotland's growth in the last decade has even matched the sluggish growth of the UK as a whole, our economy would be nearly £10 billion larger today. That is a decade of lost opportunity, a decade of lost jobs and lost potential. My honourable friend from Edinburgh South West has told us, and he is right, that we should differentiate what our failures of devolution from failures that sit squarely at the SNP's door.

We need a new approach, one that involves Scotland's cities and regions and local government. But the SNP's desire for highly centralised power, instead of responsive and act of local government in Scotland, has led to the accountability crisis we have already discussed. And the honourable friend from Stirling and Right honourable friend from Glasgow North East has done a fantastic job of explaining the role and desire of local government. Please. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my honourable friend for taking my intervention, and it's very interesting to hear her outline so succinctly how Scotland could be better served if UK Liberal government's policies were perhaps copied elsewhere.

However, I believe that symbols can sometimes be very important. And does she agree with me that the fact that there are actually more Labour Scottish ministers sitting on the frontbench than there are SNP members attending? This debate, says a lot about their priorities and the priorities of this government compared to that party here. I couldn't agree with my honourable friend more. Madam Deputy Speaker, at the last election we promised to maximise Scotland's influence and this is what that looks like. The calls we have heard from leaders across Scotland are clear.

Local government leaders are not just asking for money, they are asking for powers, powers over skills, transport and growth to unlock the full potential of their regions. They are really asking for genuine accountability to the people they serve. As my honourable friend for Glasgow West and the honourable for member Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross have both previously highlighted, there are problems with accountability and scrutiny in how the committee system in Holyrood has evolved away from the desires of those who founded the Scottish Parliament.

They have warmed the committees, which were intended to be the backbone of scrutiny in the Scottish Parliament, are too often dominated by the governing party and lack the independence needed to really hold the executive to account. Their view which, as founding members of the Scottish Parliament carries much weight, is that without stronger and more robust committees, devolution cannot deliver, as the architects of the Scotland Act intended. Devolution was, as has been said many times this afternoon, never meant to be an end in itself.

It was always supposed to be a means to improve lives, not about division but through co-operation. And if we can focus on our common purpose across this House and between all levels of government, if we focus on stronger growth and fairer opportunities, then Scotland can truly be at the heart of UK prosperity. Jamie Stone to wind up.

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Thank you, Madam Speaker. If I look back to myself, a much younger version of me going to my first meeting of the Scottish Constitutional Convention in 1989, I

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would never have dreamt then that I would lead a debate of this nature in this place. But here we are. Now I want to. Thank.

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Thank. The bottom of my heart, all. The contributions that have been made, and I hope that from.

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made, and I hope that from. Time to time the Scottish Government is at present is, or any Scottish Government would occasionally look in the mirror and occasionally look in the mirror and think, are we doing things right? I do hope that Hansard has read and looked at the thought about, because
18:40
Jamie Stone Portrait Jamie Stone MP (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, Liberal Democrat)
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looked at the thought about, because there is. Room. For improvement, and I leave you with this. Last thought, Madam Speaker,

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Last thought, Madam Speaker, which perhaps will make my take colleagues by surprise. But there

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have been repeated references to somebody in this debate. And I remember. Getting in the lift in Holyrood

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Getting in the lift in Holyrood in my first day after I was elected in 1999, and tall Gangling figure in 1999, and tall Gangling figure was in the lift, and he looked me up and down and said, and who exactly are you?

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said. To him, I was he said we had had

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To him, I was he said we had had hopes of that seat, but I am sure we shall work together in a very shall work together in a very satisfactory manner. And we did. Now I have had conversations with members of the other side of the House about this, but I am not aware House about this, but I am not aware of any image of Donald. Dewar in this place. And for a man who made this place. And for a man who made such an extraordinary contribution to the Constitution of these islands, that might be something islands, that might be something that the Art Committee might want to think about.

With that rather strange, I will give way.

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strange, I will give way. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm sure you'll take this in the spirit as intended, but I would have spirit as intended, but I would have to tell the honourable member that, unfortunately, that request has been rejected. That request has been rejected. That request has been rejected by the art Committee. I'm not sure that I'll necessarily take that line down as he would imagine, that line down as he would imagine, but it has been rejected in the moment.

So I just thought it was important that he should know that.

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important that he should know that. Well, well, well, Mr Speaker, I know the member, honourable member for Glasgow West. Well, I doubt very for Glasgow West. Well, I doubt very much will take it lying down, and I'm sure she will have the whether you see devolution as a means to an you see devolution as a means to an end called independence or whether you see it, whichever way I do, to invade improving services in Scotland. I think we should all honour that particular man.

Thank you, thank you.

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And I'm not. Sure that it's entirely in order to correct the record, but there to correct the record, but there are, in fact, images of Donald Dewar within the parliamentary collection. within the parliamentary collection. And it does fall to me. But the question as on the Order Paper, as many as or of that opinion, say aye of the country. No, I think the ayes

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of the country. No, I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. I think to move that this House
18:42
18:43
None Portrait Adjournment: Mental health and hoarding
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district nurse serving the Kingstanding community, the same
18:43
18:44
18:44
Paulette Hamilton Portrait Paulette Hamilton MP (Birmingham Erdington, Labour)
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significant distress or impairment way.

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I thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, and I thank my honourable friend for giving way. She speaks so friend for giving way. She speaks so effectively about hoarding disorder and as she has explained, it is a mental health condition in its own right. Although often confused with OCD. One of my own constituents

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OCD. One of my own constituents spoke to me about her husband, who has completely filled the living. Room with items. That he just cannot discard. So

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That he just cannot discard. So does my honourable friend agree that whether it's OCD or another condition, hoarding disrupts the life not only of the individual who goes through the anxiety and trauma

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goes through the anxiety and trauma of the condition, but affects others around them? And we heard this morning during PMQs that 1. In. 4 of.

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4 of. Us will suffer from a. Mental health condition. So does she. Agree that we need to increase.

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Agree that we need to increase. Mental health support. To make it easily accessible in providing effective treatment, and providing effective treatment, and this early intervention can avoid deterioration of this condition?

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My honourable friend raises a valuable point and later on it must. I will come on to that. But I I will come on to that. But I absolutely agree that this does disrupt people's lives. And I will

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disrupt people's lives. And I will take I will take the question of the honourable member. Can I first of all congratulate the Honourable lady for Birmingham Erdington for bringing this forward? Honourable lady is a dear friend of mine, and I always look forward to bringing our contribution to this Westminster Hall. They programme on TV. I often think of it. I really didn't understand the obsessive behaviour of hoarding, but that programme on TV I think opened the try to let us understand it.

But what that program did on TV as well, and I think it's important to recognise that not just to show what the problem was, but how they could perhaps bring a better solution. And I think that was what I always loved about that programme. That started off with a problem, but they ended up with a solution.

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I thank my honourable friend for his question. You are right, but his question. You are right, but this is not just about a solution. This this is a number of people in This this is a number of people in our society living with a mental health condition, and the mental health condition needs to be treated. And at the moment there are no strategies in place. But I feel no strategies in place. But I feel as I go on, I will answer the question that you have raised.

So

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question that you have raised. So thank you to my honourable friend for his question. Oh my. Great.

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I'll give way to my. I'm really grateful to my friend bringing tonight's debate, because bringing tonight's debate, because I've met with your community bes who have developed strategies for supporting people in the community. supporting people in the community. They dearly need money, of course, because they are not only addressing mental health needs, but also mental health needs, but also de-risking a situation because hoarding this infection infestations hoarding this infection infestations fire and structural damage to homes. So they play a really crucial role.



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So they play a really crucial role. Again. My honourable friend raises a valuable point. The issue of financing is vital relating to this subject, but I will discuss more as I go along. It is a widespread condition, affecting between 2 to 5% of the population, which equates to approximately 1.2 to 3 million people in Britain. Let me be absolutely clear hoarding is not a lifestyle choice, nor is it a matter of laziness.

It's a complex mental health condition deeply rooted in emotional distress and underlying trauma, often stemming from adverse childhood experiences. For orders, it can result in unsafe living conditions, social isolation, and a diminished ability to manage day to day responsibilities. If left untreated, it has a huge it has a huge cost on families, the NHS, housing providers and emergency services. On top of this, hoarding is a long term condition with few effective treatment options, meaning behaviours are often left unsolved unresolved.

My professional experience showed me the heartbreaking reality individuals is literally drowning in clutter. Their mental health deteriorates in their relationships. Broken. Dealing with hoarding can be very time consuming and expensive, with support falling disproportionately to ill equipped local authorities and overstretched third sector organisations such as Birmingham's own clouds and CIC, led by the inspirational ever mezzo. Madam Deputy Speaker, the challenges can be broken down into four key areas. The first area is public health and safety.

Auditing doesn't just hurt individuals but has knock on effects on the entire community. The hazardous living conditions it creates from severe fire risks and blocked escape routes to unsanitary and unsafe housing pose a direct danger not only to the individual but to their neighbours and the brave professionals. For UN firefighters, social workers and others who are called in to intervene. The second public awareness and education. We cannot combat what we don't understand. We urgently need to educate our communities and frontline professionals in social care, housing, health and emergency services to recognise hoarding as a mental health issue, to reduce stigma and promote more compassionate and effective intervention.

Third, mental health and support gaps mental health services and treatments that address hoarding, specifically remain scarce and underfunding funded. Many people affected feel reluctant to seek help because of stigma, lack of awareness, fear of eviction or other legal consequences. Closing this support gap is not just optional, it is essential and finally is legal and housing implications. Housing providers can be can be faced with challenges, legal situations where tenants hoarding behaviours lead to breaches of tenancy agreements or safety policies.

Unfortunately, these cases are too often handled through eviction or legal action, rather than providing support to address the root causes of the problem, we need policies that balance legal responsibility with compassionate mental health support. As a society, we have a responsibility to support those living with hoarding disorders. In Birmingham, the numbers needing support has risen exponentially since Covid. Since the Covid pandemic, and the story is the same across the country. As many members have highlighted the seriousness and scale of this issue demands a coordinated national response led by government.

We need a national strategy to bring consistency, reduce risk and improve lives. The current legal framework is simply not fit for purpose. The Care Act of 2014 recognises that people who AUD may be considered vulnerable or entitled to advocacy. However, there are no national guidelines for agencies that encounter Auden in their work without guidance, responses to auditing will remain inconsistent and ineffective in the absence of national guideline guidelines, agencies are forced to rely on outdated legislation such as the Public Health Act of 1936, which classifies these areas as filthy and vermin as premises.

Under these powers, a person can be forced to clear their property even if they own it. If they cannot afford clearance, it is undertaken on their behalf and charged to the property. This approach is deeply flawed. If it if threats or deemed purely have if olding is treated purely as a practical or environmental issue, rather than recognising that these are vulnerable human beings in need of help by failing to recognise or adding as a mental health condition, it risks traumatising individuals, worsening hoarding behaviours.

Sorry and in the most extreme cases, contributing to suicidal thoughts. The human impact cannot be understated. Lack of proper support and compassion leads to further trauma, distress and greater risk of re accumulation. National guidelines would provide clarity on what the constituents appropriate and effective practice a consistent framework for agencies across the UK. A balance between addressing practical risks and meeting underlying mental health needs. And fourthly, a clear routes for advice, support and specialist referral. Madam Deputy Speaker, this brings me to my central ask of ministers.

We need a coordinated national strategy for hoarding disorder. While the Care Act of 2014 provides a foundation by recognising vulnerability, the absence of specific national guidelines leads to a postcode lottery of care and inconsistent, often ineffective, intervention. A national framework would provide clarity, consistency and compassionate balancing risk. Risk balancing risk management with mental health support and establishing clear pathways for specialist health. I was proud that the Labour manifesto committed to recruiting 8500 extra mental health staff and delivering a transformative ten year plan for mental health.

It is essential that these welcome initial initiatives explicitly include and address

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hoarding disorder. I'll keep my Noble friends incredibly generous. York Community incredibly generous. York Community BS has helped 600 people in York over the last 77 years, and they've over the last 77 years, and they've got a lot of expertise as how to sensitively support people declutter, whilst at the same time declutter, whilst at the same time upcycling, so people recognise they make it a really positive contribution where they're selling contribution where they're selling on things like 7000 books and they've collected 5323 items from they've collected 5323 items from landfill and pass them on as well.

So people not only have hoarded in the past, but for the contributing the past, but for the contributing to the future. Does she not agree that that should be part of the holistic model?

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holistic model? The honourable member makes an absolutely brilliant point, and yes, absolutely brilliant point, and yes, it should be part of the holistic model. But the point is there is no model in place at the moment. So it's like the wild, wild West. Everybody is just doing what they Everybody is just doing what they think is fit. And this is why I have brought this debate today. But to brought this debate today. But to end, I urge government to prioritise the development of a lot of national the development of a lot of national guidelines, equipping all frontline workers with the tools to identify and address hoarding compassionately and effectively to ensure a truly integrated, multi-agency approach.

Bringing together mental health services, social care, housing and emergency responders. Three. To invest in research and data collection to properly understand the scale, causes and economic impact of hoarding in the UK. Ensuring our policies are evidence based and resources are allocated wisely. In my nursing career, we were taught that prevention is always better than cure. This also holds true for all adding early intervention is more humane and more cost effective than crisis response. This is an issue that has remained in the shadows for too long.

We have a duty to bring it into the light to replace judgement with understanding, and to offer a hand up to the millions of our citizens living with this devastating condition. I look forward to hearing the Minister's response on how this government intends to lead that vital change. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
18:58
Zubir Ahmed Portrait Dr Zubir Ahmed MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Glasgow South West, Labour)
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Minister Zubir Ahmed.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I can can. I sincerely thank my honourable Erdington.

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Erdington. And the Vice. Chair. Of course. Of the Health and Social Care Select Committee for securing this Select Committee for securing this debate. And can I pay tribute to her work on the committee, where she has consistently championed the voices consistently championed the voices of the unheard? And I pay further tribute to her NHS service as a tribute to her NHS service as a district nurse over 30 years. And I was just recalling as she was speaking, I had the pleasure when I was a medical student at the University of Glasgow, to spend a lot of time shadowing district nurses, and I always found them just nurses, and I always found them just to be the perfect mixture of clinical acumen and that sixth sense of something not quite being right.

And I think my honourable friend And I think my honourable friend displays all of those attributes in abundance. She's been true to form abundance. She's been true to form in raising this issue, because hoarding is a disorder that is, by definition, kept from public view. definition, kept from public view. While it's often overlooked, it has a profound impact on the lives of those affected, their families, those affected, their families, carers and of course, local services. Too many are suffering in silence. And before I begin my silence.

And before I begin my remarks, I would like to thank some of the charities who do to so much to support people up and down the to support people up and down the country hoarding yucky clothes end and cutters anonymous, just to name a few.

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Madam Deputy. Speaker, for too long, hoarding has been seen as something quirky or has been seen as something quirky or perhaps even comical. But the disorder is neither a joke nor a rarity. It is a complex and often misunderstood condition that can have devastating consequences for people's mental and physical health. Often it is a portent to investigating further mental investigating further mental well-being and illness. While estimates vary, research suggests that between 2% to 3% of the UK that between 2% to 3% of the UK population, as my honourable friend admitted, may be affected by hoarding behaviours, these are often hoarding behaviours, these are often associated with traumatic life experiences like bereavement, divorce or indeed eviction.

People who hoard can experience deep emotional distress, guilt and emotional distress, guilt and anxiety. The clutter in their homes often represents emotional pain, memories or attempts to regain

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memories or attempts to regain control, but the impact can be severe. The clutch order.

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The clutch order. I beg to move that this House to now adjourn. to. Now adjourn.

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Minister. Thank you, madam. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. But as I was Madam Deputy Speaker. But as I was saying, the impact can be severe of hoarding. The clutter can compromise hygiene, strained relationships, and, of course, pose safety risks. So let me be clear. These people deserve compassion and support from this government and every corner of society. My honourable friend asks whether the government will introduce a national hoarding strategy. While there are no plans for a specific strategy, we and I absolutely recognise that people who hoard must have access to the right support and that at the moment requires more coordination than is

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currently being. This currently in place, as. She knows better than anyone. As a district nurse.

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And an independent lay. Manager, mental. Health services have been.

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Decimated over the last 14 years. This government is doing the hard yards of rebuilding those services while transforming our mental health system so people can access the right support at the right time and indeed the right place. Through our

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indeed the right place. Through our ten year health plan, we have set long term reforms to make mental health a core priority. Of the NHS.

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Of the NHS. And to move from crisis care to prevention and indeed, early intervention. This transformation will include investing up to £120 million to expand the number of million to expand the number of mental health emergency departments to 85 across England, a modern service framework for severe mental service framework for severe mental illness to support consistent, high quality and high value care. And of quality and high value care. And of course, as Ms. Honourable friend also mentioned, recruiting 8500 new mental health.

Workers across the NHS to increase capacity and make sure help is available where and when needed. And we are already when needed. And we are already piloting 624 seven neighbourhood mental health centres, which will bring together a range of professionals and imbibe that professionals and imbibe that holistic concept. Professionals such as psychologists, peer support workers, housing. Specialists and employment advisors. The pilots are testing out mechanisms that will enable that whole team approach to capture people that otherwise remain hidden, including collaborative planning of care and treatment, communication and engagement, and of course, single patient records and shared outcome measures.

This joined up approach presents an opportunity for people, including those with hoarding disorder, to be identified and to get holistic support and treatment, and then to better join up between social services and mental health support. We know, too, that there are people in contact with social care right now who have a suspected hoarding disorder. Digital social care records, which have been implemented by 80% of CQC providers, already are improving that quality and safety and that personalisation of care. We are also investing in the development of a national infrastructure for social care, which will lay the foundations for ensuring greater interoperability and integration between care and health services.

So again, less people slip through the net. As is often the case with hoarding disorders. Madam Deputy Speaker, people who hoard will be isolated may not recognise their behaviour as a problem or may be reluctant to engage with services. This is why safeguarding plays such an important role. The Care Act 2014 and its statutory guidance make clear that self neglect, which explicitly includes hoarding, is a safeguarding concern when a local authority has cause to suspect that an adult appears to be at risk of self.

Neglect and is unable to protect themselves. As a result, that authority must carry out a safeguarding inquiry. The purpose of that inquiry is to establish what action is required and by whom, and to keep that person safe and get them ultimately the support that they need. The guidance also advises that each case of self neglect should be assessed on an individualised case by case basis. Professionals, whether social workers, carers, housing officers, emergency services clinicians have a responsibility to spot the signs, raise concerns and support people and direct them towards help.

Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the most effective treatments for hoarding disorder is cognitive behavioural therapy, otherwise known as CBT. This is a form of talking therapy, which helps individuals understand the thoughts and feelings that influence their behaviour and supports them to gradually make practical changes to their living environment through NHS talking

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therapies, people with hoarding disorder can access. Evidence based. Psychological interventions such

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Psychological interventions such as CBT. The government this government is expanding access to talking therapies this year, and has committed to continuing this committed to continuing this expansion over the coming years. We aim to increase the number of people completing a course of talking completing a course of talking therapy by 384,000 by the end of this Parliament, and increase the number of sessions someone can number of sessions someone can access. This means that more people will be able to access timely, high quality mental health support in quality mental health support in their local area and that these services can be accessed not only through their GP but also through through their GP but also through self referral.

We know, however, that accepting these services can be difficult for those who feel difficult for those who feel isolated or feel shame about their condition, as advised by national charities. Therefore, during National Reporting Awareness Week, we would encourage friends, family, members of someone suspected with a hoarding disorder to gently hoarding disorder to gently encourage them to speak to their GP. A GP can help assess their needs and refer them to the appropriate mental refer them to the appropriate mental health and community support, because no one should face this condition alone.

Hoarding, of condition alone. Hoarding, of course, can also be associated with serious mental illnesses, including severe depression and obsessive compulsive disorder. These conditions can require more specialist or intensive forms of support. That is why the government is transforming services for people living with severe mental illnesses. By investing in new models of integrated community care, expanding

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crisis support, and increasing access to. Physical health. Checks and tailored

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Checks and tailored interventions. Madam Deputy Speaker, at its heart, this. Debate is about dignity. And compassion. We're talking about members of our own communities who deserve the same compassion, care and support as anyone else with any other illness. The Vice Chair, my honourable friend The Vice Chair, my honourable friend of the Select Committee, deserves real credit for her work on this issue and we will continue to work issue and we will continue to work with her mental health professionals, voluntary organisations and people with lived organisations and people with lived experience to shmash to smash the stigma while improving access to care.



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I will thank you. I'm grateful to the Minister giving way. Certainly listening to your community base who listening to your community base who have met and engaged with their work. Their big cry though, is for funding. These people are funding. These people are specialists in the work that they do in supporting residents, but they do need funding. So will he send a need funding. So will he send a message to commissioners to ensure that they commission these services

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to support residents? I'm grateful for my honourable friends intervention. She obviously friends intervention. She obviously also comes to this House with a great deal of experience in these matters, and I can certainly give her an assurance that as part of this government's ten year health agenda, we would encourage all commissioners to strategically, strategically commission on the basis of what will prevent ill health in the long term. And I believe this is an exemplar of where we could think about commissioning mental health services differently to try and pick up the signs earlier.

For too long, Madam Deputy Speaker, people with mental health conditions, including those who hoard, have not received the understanding or support they deserve. But I want to end on a note of optimism with love from families, patience from friends and the ongoing support of charities and

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third sector organisations. Countless people have managed to live. Safe.

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Safe. Healthy and fulfilling lives with hoarding disorders. We will continue to work closely with these partners, to work closely with these partners, local authorities and charities to make sure that this government is

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make sure that this government is also playing its full part. Thank you. Thank you. The question is that this House

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The question is that this House do now adjourn as many as or that opinions say I, I. The ayes have it.
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