Commons Chamber

Wednesday 23rd April 2025

(began 6 months, 3 weeks ago)

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None Portrait Q2. Whether he has had recent discussions with the Scottish Government on the implementation of cancer strategies. (903741)
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sector which is devolved to the Scottish government. We made clear the immigration system we inherited from the previous government is not
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None Portrait Q4. What assessment he has made of the potential impact of not issuing new North Sea oil and gas licences on levels of economic growth in Scotland. (903743)
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Durable gentleman says there have
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Last week former steelworkers in Port Talbot watched in dismay as this government showed their livelihoods are worth less than in Scunthorpe. A freedom of information request is that UK governance does not know how its funding for skilled workers is being used or even how many people are being retrained. We know concerns have been raised by the transition board. Can this government explain how it is helping Port Talbot workers to build the future from reskilling, and why shouldn't those workers come to the conclusion that Labour has abandoned

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them? She raises a very important issue in relation to Port Talbot. I visited a number of times and heard first-hand from the workforce there. She may or may not know that even in She may or may not know that even in opposition before the election, I was talking to the owners to try to persuade them to delay the decisions as I knew an election was coming but that's so important I thought it that's so important I thought it was.

I would remind her that the then private estate refused to pick up a call to the First Minister to even discuss the issue. I took a different approach was I realised how important it was. I would remind her because she compares it to the decision we took last week, that the blast furnaces were turned off in January of last year. And that was before the election. That was the very thing I was trying to ensure did not happen for reasons that she and the workforce will understand.

I was talking to the workforce throughout. We have been able to do since then is to negotiate improved deal with Tata and we did that within 10 weeks. Better terms for
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None Portrait Points of Order
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Ben Obese-Jecty Portrait Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)
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I do not think either need to answer that, the man who does know how to facilitate and I know it will not -- not end here. He has certainly gone on the record and I know he will now put through the

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many ways available to him. Chalk Streams (Sewerage

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Chalk Streams (Sewerage Investment) Bill. Second Reading what day?

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Friday, 11 July.

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Friday, 11 July. We now come to the Ten Minute

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Rule Motion. I beg to move lead be given to bring in a bill to require the Secretary of State to prepare and publish the strategy for tackling interpersonal abuse and violence against men and boys and related purposes. This government has pledged to halve violence against woman, which has full support. The aim of this bill is to tackle an aspect of that current strategy, an aspect that makes no sense what is essential is addressed by the government. The strategy currently includes male victims of violence against women and girls, the government still defines violence against women and girls as disproportionately affecting women, therefore sexual assault, honour- based violence and digital abuse, boys are considered victims of VAWG.

This bill is to ensure that male victims of those crimes have a strategy that reflects the differing nature of their circumstances and ensures that male survivors support. The current categorisation forces male victims into spaces that may be more appropriate for women. A current the government has no strategy in tackling abuse against men and boys. In 2019 there was a fair statement on male victims and in 2022 in addendum on supporting male victims. The change in government and revive strategy on VAWG presents a new opportunity to devise a parallel strategy for men , with a new position statement.

The Minister for safeguarding is currently in the process of rewriting the Violence Against Women and Girls Strategy for publication later this week. Now is the time to legislate for such a change to be formalised. When the government stated it hopes to half violence against women and girls, this data includes victims who are men and boys. Victims of gender-based violence have many things that violence have many things that The of not being believed, the threat of the perpetrator, not being aware of the services available to help or being aware but not able to access them.

The complexities of disclosure, the impact on living arrangements of financial security and how this can meet instances of coercive control. For men and boys there are additional factors, the shame, the stigma of not appearing to be masculine, being vulnerable, potentially having your sexuality outed, being a victim of a crime that officially is referred to women -- female victims. Men have often coped alone, for long periods and often living with abusive partners, those men may need help with finances and circumstances and if it involves children, how they can remain in their role as a father.

The majority of those seeking help do not return to it following first contact. Stats show that three percent of men aged 16 and over were victims of abuse between September 2020 C and September 2024, competitive 6.6 percent of women. According to Women's Aid, there were just 50 refugees in England with space for men. A total of 63,950 people supported in safe accommodation in that period, only 1830 were men. There's a difference in the needs of men who are gay, bisexual and trans.

The risk of being outed, the risk of being a victim of prejudice or disowned by family members, male victims are less likely to report abuse. The survey highlighted over 70 percent of gay, bisexual and trans victims of domestic abuse had never sought support from a statutory service providers. Their statistics are not recorded and therefore increasing their risk of abuse. One in four adults sexually assaulted in the UK each year is a man, one in 10 rapes and one in seven sexual assault have male victims.

3.5 percent of boys become victims of child sexual abuse before they are 16, one of four victims of child sexual abuse are men. Over 70 percent of child sexual abusers are known to their victims. Shame, stigma, homophobia, emasculation factors in presenting -- preventing sexual abuse being -- preventing sexual abuse being reported. Male survivors are three times more likely to tell a friend, family member or colleague than to report to the police. Fewer than one third of male victims of sexual assault have ever disclose what they experienced.

For straight men there can be a hesitancy to disclose abuse, misconception that men should be physically strong enough to prevent abuse. They can fail to identify the abuse because it has caused them to be aroused, while males and females can be victims of rape, only males can realistically commit the app -- act of rape. Honour-based violence is a factor poorly understood. Victims of honour-based violence are a greater risk of repeat victimisation and at risk of multiple perpetrators but there is no discrete crime of honour-based abuse in the legislation, so most instances males would be victims of violence without injury or stalking and harassment.

Data suggests around 30 percent of prosecutions for honour -- base prosecutions involve male victims. 20 percent of forced marriage victims are male. Including those overseas forced to marry UK citizens, being victims of modern Data was published about how male survivors feel being characterised in this way. 80% said it made harder to seek help. Many said they experienced distress. 88% stated the government does not care. 80% said it was minimising their experiences, 25% it was not taken seriously, 73% stated it was not recognised by society.

It is clear that the damaging impact including male victims within a strategy that caters violence against women and girls means male survivors cannot identify with that label. Organisations such as We Are Survivors and others have been instrumental in providing support for male victims and advocating for a solution to this issue, I thank them for the issue they have done. Last November the Victims' Commissioner wrote to the Safeguarding Minister outlining many of the concerns I have raised here. These concerns are not unique.

They are shared by the male survivors community. The view of the Victims' Commissioner should not go unheeded nor that of her predecessor Dame Vera expressed similar views. I believe it is beyond time for dedicated men and strategy, specific policies, strategic milestones and accompanying funding. A tailored approach for male victims of violence is essential for developing their rights and ensuring the available at your appropriate support services. I urge you to seize the opportunity to create a robust cross-Government strategies and a separate copperhead strategy for men and with clear policies, strategic targets, milestones, and sustainable funding arrangements.

Six months later, with nothing further hurdle implanting such a strategy, this bill is required to push the Safeguarding Minister into taking action. My hope is that male survivors of such traumatic violence and abuse can finally get the support they need. I hope members on both sides feel they can support this bill sets out to achieve and I thank them for the time this

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afternoon. The question is that the audible member have leave to bring in the member have leave to bring in the bill. The question is that the Ottowa have leave to bring in the bill. As many are of that opinion bill. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Who were prepared to bring

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the bill? Sir Iain Duncan Smith, Sir Roger Gale, Ashley Fox, Charlie Dewhirst, Wendy Morton, David Simmonds, Paul Wendy Morton, David Simmonds, Paul Holmes, Rebecca Smith, Bob Blackman, Alison Griffiths, Richard Holden,
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None Portrait Opposition Day Debate: Hospitals
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Against Men and Boys (Strategy) Bill
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Helen Morgan Portrait Helen Morgan MP (North Shropshire, Liberal Democrat)
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Second Reading what day?

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Friday 16th May. We now come to

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Friday 16th May. We now come to that motion in the name of the leader of the Liberal Democrats on leader of the Liberal Democrats on hospitals. I informed the house that I have selected the amendment tabled in the name of the Prime Minister. I in the name of the Prime Minister. I now call Helen Morgan to move the motion.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. The state hospital buildings is a The state hospital buildings is a national scandal. Everyone in this country should be control of their own lives and their own health. And that means everyone should get the care that they need when they need it and where they need it. But that can never be realised while so many patients are treated in settings that are grossly inadequate. From Shropshire to Cornwall to Cambridgeshire, Watford and Devon, patients are losing their dignity because of decisions taken by the Conservatives and the current Labour government's failure to rectify them.

The Conservatives record is one of starved repair projects, sewage leaks, crumbling ceilings, and buckets strewn wards. It is an outrage that millions of people are waiting for treatment and yet overcrowded hospitals have had to close operating theatres because they are no longer fit for use. Patients and the staff who work in hospitals to serve the dignity of safe modern and clean environments. But instead the last government shamefully chose to raid the repair budget to plug the gap in day-to-day costs as hospitals fell apart.

The new government, having been elected on what is increasingly looking like false hope, is pursuing a false economy by delaying desperately needed new hospitals program. Like so much of its agenda, having promised so much, the government is delivering so little, and betraying those who put their faith in the Labour Party. Farmers who were fed up with the Tories who took them for granted have been hit by a tax grab on their financial futures. Employers who were promised growth and no new taxes have been whacked

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by a new national insurance. In patients who were promised new hospitals had them taken away. I was with her almost up until

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I was with her almost up until the point that it is true the new hospitals were not new hospitals. But it is being funded now under Labour. And in the case of my Labour. And in the case of my hospital, I'm pleased money is being invested and we are preparing. So invested and we are preparing. So perhaps you will give a bit of credit to what the new government has done as was correctly identifying the shambles we were

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left. I think of as intervention. He will be aware that there were not 40 new hospitals, and there were not 40 of them. The issue we have is that start dates those that need rebuilding have been pushed back into the 2030s long beyond the life of this Parliament. And the people who were served by the hospitals have been promised facilities and have not had them. It is devastating for those communities. If the Conservative approach was contemptible Labour's approach has been to procrastinate.

The cost to the NHS are papering over cracks and keeping hospitals running past their natural lifespan is enormous. That is why the government must reverse the delays to the New Hospital Programme and urgently deliver the new hospitals that patients have

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long been promised. I thank the woman before giving

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I thank the woman before giving way. I wonder if she can explain how spending £22 billion extra on the NHS this year could in any way be described as procrastination?

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described as procrastination? It is important to recognise that that the additional investment in the NHS, look at the numbers from the NHS, look at the numbers from the OBR, and I'm sure he has, it amounts to about £10 billion a year. amounts to about £10 billion a year. Because of the cost of the national insurance hikes and the cost of compensating other public sector employers for those hikes. The £22 billion is somewhat misleading. And the point we are trying to make is that it is a false economy to keep these buildings going with crumbling estates, to keep repairing them and patching them up and putting a sticking plaster on those problems but those puddings need to be demolished and rebuilt.

It is a false economy. It would be much better to build them upfront and save costs in the future. We need to ensure that no one is treated in broken uncomfortable and unsafe facilities. Repairing and replacing crumbling hospitals is not only vital for delivering better kept treating patients, it is crucial for rebuilding the economy after years of economic vandalism. How much is all this costing? In my county of Shropshire the cost of the maintenance backlog has reached about £75 million.

I'm sure everyone would agree that it is a lot of money. Indeed it is the total amount of capital investment the government has given for hospices this year. In terms of hospital maintenance, it is a drop in the ocean. Hospitals like Torbay needs more than £50 million to clear the bank. Hospitals in Watford have a backlog of £63 million while whole Royal infirmary requires £70 million. Across England

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the figure is a colossal £13.8 billion. That is just to bring our existing hospital estate up to a minimum standard. The honourable member is of

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The honourable member is of course right that there is a huge amount of money that needs to be amount of money that needs to be spent. A lot of that money goes back to the fact that in the 2010s, as Lord Darzi tells us, £37 billion less was spent on hospital buildings

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less was spent on hospital buildings than should have been spent. Could she remind me who was in government in the first half of that decade? The honourable gentleman will be

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The honourable gentleman will be aware that when you came into government and have to clean up the mess left behind by the previous government, you have to make some are difficult choices. It is the job of the opposition to point out where of the opposition to point out where they would do different. We would invest to save money in the long run rather than frittering money away on a repair bill for buildings that need to be demolished.

It is not sensible to port good money after bad when the right thing to do is invest in the new estate, invest in a fit for purpose modern estate that does not have these endless and extortionate maintenance requirements. I'm going to make some progress that is OK. At North Devon progress that is OK. At North Devon District Hospital, the Dutch ventilation system that serves the operating theatres has not been changed since it was installed in 1979. Can't because of the ceiling heights.

As a result all operating theatres are non-compliant with NHS England buildings guidance from 2007. The good people of Devon clearly need a new hospital. They were promised they would have this by 2030 only for the Labour government to take this away and decide the change they need won't be delivered for another decade. Even hospitals with comparatively few maintenance problems like one in my constituency are clearly a long way short of being up to standard. I'm not going to go into detail again today about the catalogue of issues in Shropshire.

The ambulance delays, the station closures, waiting times for checkups and standards of cancer care. But all this is combining to put huge pressure on hospitals when both the staff and buildings are strained.

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Can I thank the honourable Lady and the Liberal Democrat party for and the Liberal Democrat party for bringing this forward. One of the issues that has not been mentioned, issues that has not been mentioned, is the issue of car parking. Those who can't get car parking spaces, who can't get car parking spaces, those who are disabled, those who are going for appointments which are are going for appointments which are then delayed or missed. Does the honourable Lady agree that when it comes to addressing the issue that the party setting out clearly what

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the party setting out clearly what needs to be done, car parking has to be central to that as well. Car parking is a real problem particularly where public transport is poor, something that plagues my constituents. When it is unrealistically expensive for people who need to use the hospital facilities. So I thank him for that point. The point of the NHS crisis is that it impacts on patient outcomes. Patients like my constituent, Emma, was left in a different area for many hours despite being diagnosed with suspected sepsis.

96-year-olds Mary waited in an ambient outside for 11 hours. And an 82-year-old spent 24 hours on a trolley in a corridor. This is the reality of hospitals up and down the country. I think we are all agreed it is a disgrace that needs to be rectified. I'm going to make some progress. One of the main reasons these problems have not been rectified successive delays from successive governments. And Shropshire is a example. So not related to the new hospital program, £312 million was granted for the hospital transmission program in Shropshire back in 2018.

Seven years later, and while the county has been through five prime ministers and eight different health secretaries, Shropshire is still waiting for that transformation to take place. There's been opposition from both the Labour and Conservative councillors that serve the area alongside ridiculously lengthy processes that capital expenditure has to go through to be signed off. Desperately needed improvements have been horribly delayed as construction costs rise. As a result the original plans are scaled back the original plans are scaled back

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She mentions the inordinate

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She mentions the inordinate delays that occur. I watched with horror as my local hospital trust horror as my local hospital trust have had to submit a business case after business case after business after business case after business case, watching the costs back up. Would she agree that one of the ways we could spend the allocated money more efficiently is to devolve budget to local hospital trust rather than make a centralised program that drives up the costs?

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I could not agree more. That is exactly the situation we saw in structure -- Shropshire. People that suffer will be the patients. So, last year, less than £900 million of the £13.8 billion required to eradicate repair backlogs at hospitals was invested, 6.5 percent. To work out that at that rate it would take 15 years to clear the backlog let alone deal with the further deterioration of these crumbling buildings which we have discussed. Investment in eradicating the backlog has fallen from £1.4 billion in 20 £21-£895 billion in 2023/24, full of 37 percent.

I'm afraid, just like the approach to social care, the lack of imagination and ambition is leaving the NHS less productive, less stable and risks leaving millions languishing on NHS waiting list. Going to give way to the honourable gentleman there actually.

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I am much grateful. I was struck by her lack of response to two of my by her lack of response to two of my colleagues, not acknowledging that in Chelsea and Fulham, Imperial College, Imperial trust is getting money from the government to rebuild money from the government to rebuild the hospitals. And not addressing that point made by the honourable that point made by the honourable friend from Calder Valley, which is friend from Calder Valley, which is that we are all in the whirlwind of the decisions by the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats government, the Liberal Democrats went in and made the choice to make the cuts and destroy the NHS and we are now in the decision she and her colleagues made and is it now not a bit cheeky of her to come here and make the point she's making today?

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Timepieces hospital is being dealt with. I am sure the residents of Torbay will not feel the benefit of that. I'm surprised that he of that. I'm surprised that he thinks that the decade since the Liberal Democrats were in power has Liberal Democrats were in power has Liberal Democrats were in power has had no impact whatsoever. I did address the point that when you come into government having to clear up an appalling mess from the previous government, there are difficult government, there are difficult choices to be made.

His party knows that, they have voted to retain the to child benefit cap, keep one quarter million children in poverty, something no one in my party has ever voted for. Just like its approach to fixing social care, the government passed my continued lack of imagination and ambition is leaving the NHS less productive, less stable and risks leaving millions languishing on NHS waiting list. The last time I opened a debate, it was October and the subject was primary care, I explained it was a false economy to increase pressure and cost in different parts of the system.

The same with hospital buildings. Just as spending on critical care rather than prevention and public health is poor to managing health, waiting for the roof to collapse is an irresponsible way to manage NHS It is patience and hard working staff who are suffering. Across the country, there are thousands of GP surgeries that need urgent improvement if they are to provide the care that patients deserve. More than 2,000 hospital buildings across England were built before the foundation of the NHS in 1948, rather state of GP surgeries varies wildly.

Many surgeries are no longer fit for purpose having been built in the 1950s, the surgery in my constituency has long been recognised somewhere that needs to drastically increase in size because the population of the village has increased drastically. Despite the land and funding being available, there is no sign of a building being built and delays continue, the costs arising and the challenges for the council and the integrated care board that are already under pressure to cut costs. Instead of pursuing fantasies like the Conservatives of false economies like the Labour Party, Liberal Democrats would invest to save by starting construction now and ending the epidemic of council deprivation, closed off wards and huge sums of emergency repairs.

This will save

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the taxpayer money in the long run and benefit patients much sooner. I think she's being a little bit

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I think she's being a little bit unrealistic. We have three world- class hospitals in my constituency, class hospitals in my constituency, class hospitals in my constituency, Is £4 billion. Yes, we are refurbishing parts of Charing Cross, refurbishing parts of Charing Cross, we are putting a lot of investment into preparing for that work, but the idea that certainly she's going to, with tens or hundreds of

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billions of pounds is unrealistic. The plan we put forward involves £10 billion over 10 years and I will £10 billion over 10 years and I will come onto that in a moment. The real issue is we cannot pick one hospital and say that is indicative of an NHS which is being dealt with. There are which is being dealt with. There are hospitals across the country that are falling apart, there are are falling apart, there are hospitals like stepping Hill in the constituency of my honourable friend constituency of my honourable friend that is not in the new hospital building programme but is falling apart at the seams.

We need to address the whole estate fairly address the whole estate fairly urgently. Our 10 year guarantee capital investment programme would provide long-term security and fix provide long-term security and fix And GP surgeries. Providing an extra £10 billion for the crumbling buildings over the next decade, improving outcomes for patients, boosting productivity and cutting day-to-day costs for the NHS. The certainty is crucial. As it stands, managers have to rate budgets not just to plug pipes, but staffing gaps. That is why we would end the reactive approach to the winter prices.

Instead of the average £376 million of emergency funding announced each year for the last seven years, our winter task force would manage a ring fenced fund of 1.5 billion over the next five years, upping hospitals to plan budgets and build resilience in wars, A&E departments, and patient discharging. We are also campaigning...

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I thank the honourable member for giving way. The data for the NHS, giving way. The data for the NHS, particular the costs of paying of particular the costs of paying of previous debts, we talked about the coalition years and the work done in those and the decade and 1/2 cents those and the decade and 1/2 cents after members opposite made key interventions. Does the honourable member agree that one of the biggest member agree that one of the biggest messages is the disastrous finances messages is the disastrous finances of the Blair and Brown years?

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There were successive failures in NHS management that I think all NHS management that I think all parties need to hold their hands up to. I think that is a fair point. I think we should be focusing on the task in hand rather than continually task in hand rather than continually going back decades either to the coalition government or the Blair government before that. It is not helpful to our constituents. They helpful to our constituents. They want to see a solution, I am going want to see a solution, I am going to make progress.

We are campaigning also for a review on data government also for a review on data government finance to prevent NHS Trust from putting the funds they raise into their own buildings. NHS managers struggle to access commonsense investment in their facilities. Trusts are prevented from using other spend funds on their buildings. We need root and branch reform to bring local health facilities up to scratch. The recent history of the NHS is one of short- term decision-making and the failure of successive governments to grasp long-term sustained investment in the things that matter.

Things like hospital buildings, GP services, dentistry and more. Things like social care, the unspoken crisis. The outcome is an organisation spending millions of pounds and spending millions of pounds and It truly is a false economy. This government has spoken warmly of the need to reform the NHS and improve productivity and we support them in that. But you cannot expect to retain staff and provide high quality care when so many doctors and nurses are negotiating leaking roofs and sewage backing up on the ward.

Dealing with the New Hospitals Programme is a matter of urgency and

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I urge the Secretary of State to long last grasp this nettle. The question is on the order

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The question is on the order paper. I call Stephen Kinnock to move the amendment.

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move the amendment. I am glad he recognised me from

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I am glad he recognised me from the chair. I have lost some hair the chair. I have lost some hair since we last spoke. I beg to move the amendment on the order paper in the amendment on the order paper in the name of my right honourable friend, the Prime Minister. I want to thank Liberal Democrats were using their Opposition Day to address a matter of vital importance for so many members, including many colleagues across the chamber and their constituents.

I hope they will work with us on solutions, not on soundbites, because we do need to be realistic about problems we are facing and serious about how we tackle them. The New Hospital Programme announced by the last government to much fanfare in October 2020 and with a promise to deliver 40 new hospitals by 2030. We were told there was a plan and timetable and we were assured it was fully funded. From the outset, it was clear that there were not 40 new schemes and some were just refurbishments or extensions.

There were not 40 projects, they were not all new and many of them are not even hospitals. The programme was widely questioned and challenged before the general election, but we were truly shocked by what we found on entering the Department for Health and Social Care. The programme was hugely delayed by several years more than had already been revealed by the National Audit Office. There was no plan to deliver
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Stephen Kinnock Portrait Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)
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these building projects, let alone deliver them all in the next five years. And not enough construction capacity in the UK to build all of capacity in the UK to build all of the hospitals in the New Hospital Programme by 2030. Which is why when the RAAC hospitals were brought in the RAAC hospitals were brought in to the improvement plan in 2023, to the improvement plan in 2023, To admit that nine schemes would have to be delivered after 2030 to prioritise the RAAC hospitals.

The prioritise the RAAC hospitals. The funding for the programme was due to run out one month ago with no provision for future years whatsoever. The money simply was not there, and the programme was built on nothing more than a false hope, dodgy claims and disingenuous press

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releases. I thank the Minister, will he

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I thank the Minister, will he share with me my constituency anger at the failure of the Tories to back up any of their promises about new hospitals and reassure me that the hospitals and reassure me that the constituents who are served by my constituents who are served by my local general hospital will finally local general hospital will finally get a new hospital to deal with the RAAC in an affordable, deliverable timetable, unlike the false promises?

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I thank you for that intervention. She is a doughty champion of her constituents. She is absolutely right. The points he makes raises something bigger than makes raises something bigger than this which is about trust in this which is about trust in politics. And trust that her constituents have in this place. The trust is fundamentally undermined by the disingenuous nature of what went the disingenuous nature of what went on with this previous hospital programme. I think the British people are grown-up enough for us to people are grown-up enough for us to be able to level with them and be straight with them and say this is credible, this is affordable, it is On the point of trust, the Conservatives blue trust with the constituents of West Hertfordshire, they promised a new hospital and selling 2023 would be fully funded and it clearly was not.

In the most recent general election the Labour Party promised that the hospital would be a priority. Will the Minister now make any promise to keep that promise by coming to visit Watford General Hospital this year?

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I thank you for that intervention and I'm sure she will appreciate the fact that we have now come forward with a program not built on sand or with a program not built on sand or smoke and mirrors but reality and smoke and mirrors but reality and the hospital in her constituency will be a part of her. She will be welcome to write to me with any further representations she might further representations she might want to make. That is the dog's breakfast we inherited from the breakfast we inherited from the party opposite.

This is not a partisan point. When a government partisan point. When a government does the right thing, for example on the Tobacco and Vapes Bill, we are happy to support. But where they failed and fobbed off members of this House, we will not pretend they were acting in good faith. Now it falls to us to level with the British people about why their hospitals will not be fixed on time. Our constituents are furious because our National Health Service is quite literally crumbling.

As Lord Darzi found in his investigation, over the past 14 years, our NHS has been starved of capital with £37 billion under investment over the course of the 2010s. I know we will hear from honourable members about examples of hospital rooms falling, thinning, leaking pipes that freeze over in winter and buckets to capture rainwater in corridors. I know capital spending is needed now more than ever. Whilst we are deeply shocked by the neglect and incompetence of the party opposite, this has not prevented us from running up our sleeves and clearing up the mess they left behind, which is why we have immediately commissioned a review which had two core objectives.

To put the programme on firm footing of sustainable funding so all budgets can be delivered to a realistic and affordable timetable. And to give patients a realistic deliverable timetable based on facts rather than

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He talks about the timeline which

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He talks about the timeline which is important. My constituents were promised hospital when there was promised hospital when there was clearly no money or business plan or a site made available. Would he agree that it is so important for agree that it is so important for the trust we want to get my constituent that we have a realistic time plan that we can actually meet?

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time plan that we can actually meet? I thank him. He is also a doughty champion for his constituents. We have to recognise that with each have to recognise that with each brick that we build in the New Hospital Programme, I hope we will start to rebuild some trust with his constituents and between his constituents and this place. I think he's actually right to point out that it is much better to have a realistic program that one built on smoke and mirrors. Officials reported on the review in the autumn and set out a range of options for a more realistic timetable for delivery.

In January, the Secretary of State announced a five year wave of investment backed up by up to £15 billion investment in consecutive five year wave is averaging £3 billion a year from 2030. Our program is a balanced portfolio of hospital schemes are different development stages being delivered now and in the future. It is the most efficient and cost-effective way of giving out NHS the buildings it needs whilst also giving the construction sector the certainty it

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needs to deliver. He refers to the capital needs of the NHS as a whole. As my honourable the NHS as a whole. As my honourable friend mentioned earlier, that applies to GP surgeries too. In my constituency we have rapid growth in constituency we have rapid growth in population, populations in many areas are struggling when GPs want to expand but cannot access the money to do so. The Minister urgently look at releasing more urgently look at releasing more funds to ICBs to future revenue can be provided to allow for the capital investment that would allow the investment that would allow the expansion in GP services to take some of the pressure off our hospitals?

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I thank him for that intervention. I was pleased to see the £102 million capital investment for GPs, primary care, and I would encourage his ICB to look very encourage his ICB to look very carefully at that fund and to carefully at that fund and to explore the potential it offers. And ensuring that section 106 processes are working so when there are new developments, there is proper wraparound in terms of the social wraparound in terms of the social infrastructure required to make the development sustainable.

In the space of just nine short months, we have gone from Sherrard based on smoke and mirrors to a program that

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delivery. He is setting out articulately what this government is doing to what this government is doing to clear out the mess around hospital provision that this country needs. Would he agree with me that the Would he agree with me that the announcement by the Dartford and Rachel NHS trust last week that they Rachel NHS trust last week that they are to build a new expanded intensive-care unit at a hospital intensive-care unit at a hospital was a big step forward for Dartford resident, who badly need new facilities to cope with the waiting

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lists and get those down but also with the rise in population in the area? I thank my honourable friend. He is a strong campaigner for his Dartford constituents. He is absolutely right that the development is going to be a game changer. And it is going to be important that we now keep people's feet to the fire to deliver on what has been promised. I can guarantee him that he will have full support of myself and the entire ministerial team in ensuring that happens.

With your permission I will address the Liberal Democrat motion that is before us today. With regarding their point of that cannibalising of NHS capital budgets to keep day-to- day services running, I'm delighted to confirm from this Dispatch Box that this government has drawn a line under this appalling practice, to which the party opposite was utterly addicted. But the Treasury has now a new fiscal rules to prevent this from happening again, and the capital spending is safe in our hands.

Secondly, on the point about reversing the so-called program that we inherited on 4 July, hope I have made it clear that the whole sorry mess was a work of fiction. It is not a question of reversing anything, as they say in the motion, because there was nothing to reverse. Instead we have gone back to the drawing board and systematically designed and built a completely new program and a

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completely new approach. I thank my friend for giving way.

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I thank my friend for giving way. As someone who had to put up with I think it was seven photo opportunities by previous opportunities by previous Conservative ministers including one sat on the opposition benches now, now claiming they were rebuilding Whipps Cross Hospital from money that did not exist, and it is very clear what needs reversing is the clear what needs reversing is the Conservative arguments that they were reforming PFI. Those of us who spent years saying we could reform the disgraceful spending on PFI particularly the PF2 schemes being brought in by the last administration, we will see more money spent on this than on drugs.

Would my noble friend agree it is this government that understands good public finances rather than the opposition benches?

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My honourable friend is a relentless campaigner for her constituents. She is absolutely constituents. She is absolutely right, it was simply government by press release. So many aspects of policy were based on making announcements and making unfunded announcements and making unfunded spending commitments. What we discovered when we came into government was a £22 billion black government was a £22 billion black hole in the public finances, largely based on promises that had based on promises that had absolutely no funding attached to them whatsoever.

That is the sort of behaviour that undermines trust in politics. Regarding the proposal from the Liberal Democrats to create a task force, what I would say is we have excellent teams working on the program and they are getting on with the job. We don't have a second to waste in setting up a new task force and it would mean further delay and distraction to process rather than being laser-focused on delivery. I know members across the house share my outrage at the almost £14 billion backlog maintenance bill facing NHS trusts after years of historic underinvestment.

I understand many here today are concerned about the condition of the health facilities that are serving their constituents was I wish to reassure these members that the Chancellor has given us the funding to begin reversing the trend of decline started under the last government immediately. This financial year, we are backing NHS systems with over £4 billion in operational capital, a life-saving cash injection of £750 million of targeted estate safety funding, as a vital first step towards fixing the crumbling estate and £440 million to tackle crumbling RAAC concrete.

We are empowering systems to allocate their funding locally and assign funding to local priorities, ensuring money is spent as effectively as possible.

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My local hospital were evicted from the New Hospitals Programme from the New Hospitals Programme when the RAAC scheme came in. There was no money at all. Will the was no money at all. Will the Minister recognise that there are some innovative schemes going on locally so we had the Imperial locally so we had the Imperial healthcare Trust are paired with other hospitals and with the other hospitals and with the Hammersmith and Fulham Industrial Strategy to maximise resources so we

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can rebuild three world-class hospitals. He is making some very strong points in behalf of his constituents. We would certainly be very happy to work more with my honourable friend around some of those innovations. What we see so often is that hospitals are anchor institutions alongside universities for driving forward innovation, harnessing the power of technology, and contributing to the government's growth mission. So there are huge opportunities there and I would be happy to explore those further with him.



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Despite overwhelming support for

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Despite overwhelming support for the Coventry and Warwickshire integrated care board has decided to cut all beds at a community cut all beds at a community hospital. Does the Minister agree that cutting vital services like that cutting vital services like this is unacceptable community hospitals play an important role in rural areas by providing equality of access.

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She is actually right, community hospitals do play a vital role. I share her disappointment with the share her disappointment with the decisions that are being made. The fact of the matter is that we are in a hole and we have to dig ourselves a hole and we have to dig ourselves out of it. It will take some time to do that. We are getting the public do that. We are getting the public finances back on an even keel. We are getting public services back to where they needed to be.

We are where they needed to be. We are getting the economy back on a sounder footing. As we make those sounder footing. As we make those achievements, I certainly hope that we will be able to reverse some of the decisions that are being made that are of course damaging to her community. But we are in a very difficult position and it will take some time for us to get over that. Refundable members will bear with me I will make more progress and come back.

Many Liberal Democrat colleagues have made the argument that with hospitals in the state they are in it is more important than ever to have a robust social care system in place. As a Minister of State for care, I agree wholeheartedly with this. But it is simply not true to portray the government is sitting on its hands, while Baroness Casey gets cracking on her vitally important work. In fact we have hit the ground running through a platter of measures. We have legislated for the first ever Fair Pay Agreements for social care to tackle the 130,000 vacancies we see today.

We have delivered an extra 7800 home adaptations to the disabled facilities Grant to change the lives of thousands more disabled for the better. In the Budget the Chancellor provided the biggest increase to Carer's Allowance since the 1970s with £2000 each year to family carers with an extra £3.7 billion for local authorities. We are not hanging around with structural reforms either. We actually see new standards to help people who use care, their families and providers choose the most effective new technologies it comes on the market.

We are joining up care and medical so NHS and care staff have the full picture they need to provide the best possible care. Training more care workers to perform health interventions to help people stay well and at home. Just two weeks ago, we announced a new qualification for social care staff. To train them in AI, to automate routine tasks and motion sensors to detect falls. We are seizing the opportunities of care tech and harnessing it for the benefit of thousands who draw on care across

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the country. I will start by saying we are

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I will start by saying we are desperate to help him in this endeavour and looking forward to receiving invitations to the cross- party talks. But today in front of party talks. But today in front of the committee we heard from an organisation called Think Ahead which is the organisation in the which is the organisation in the country that trained mental health social care workers. I have just social care workers. I have just heard the DHSC is not refunding them. Can you explain why?

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I thank her for the intervention. Baroness Casey is actually working at pace in terms of getting the commission up and running. That will be happening this month. On her point about Thinking Ahead, the fundamental challenge about the program was its relatively high unit costs. We are looking at is ensuring that we deliver value for money for the taxpayer. I'm sure it is an objective that she would share. We have to ensure that we deliver a program for mental health social care work that is not only delivering the best possible outcomes for our communities but is also delivering the best possible value for taxpayer money.

So a lot has been done in the nine months since the election. There is a huge amount more to do. And this government is getting on with the job. Alongside this work, the government is putting record levels of investment into healthcare with capital spending rising to £13.6 billion over this year and next. This includes £1.5 billion for new surgical hubs, diagnostic scanners, and beds across the estate. A new radiotherapy machines to improve cancer treatment. Over £1 billion to make inroads into the backlog of critical maintenance repairs and upgrades across the NHS estate.

In over £2 billion to be invested in NHS technology and digital. We are also taking the pressure off with care in the community. I'm sure the whole House will welcome the fact

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that the recruiting of 1500 GPs onto the front line. Coming back to community

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Coming back to community hospitals, I came here on the basis of trying to save a committee of trying to save a committee hospital in my constituency which has been under the threat of closure. The reason it has been closed is because Torbay, its parent hospital, has such a massive maintenance backlog. It cannot afford to maintain the other hospital and Torbay, so it is shutting down committee hospital. In Devon we have just three principal Devon we have just three principal hospitals, North Devon which understands under pressure, Torbay, under pressure, and Exeter.

We need the committee hospitals as well. Will the Minister stop them from shutting to Timothy hospital in a way that will maintain it for when way that will maintain it for when

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I thank him for the intervention

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I thank him for the intervention and these are for the ICBs to decide and these are for the ICBs to decide and they are having to balance out issues caused by the incompetence of the previous government. It will the previous government. It will have to be a question of ICBs having to make the finances work with the limited resources that they have. I am afraid it is symptomatic of the am afraid it is symptomatic of the mess that we found when we took over on July 4.



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Royal Sussex in my community is

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Royal Sussex in my community is in desperate need of a cancer sector and I would be grateful for an A&E department. We will come back to department. We will come back to that. We have got to be honest with the public about how we can pay for it. This is a multibillion it. This is a multibillion commitment to bring forward construction work. This is talking about creating a task force in the emotion. Is this not fundamentally unserious?

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I thank my honourable friend for the intervention and he is an outstanding champion for his outstanding champion for his constituents. I think... I noted the point he made about A&E. That was nicely done. He is right in what he nicely done. He is right in what he says about the emotion that is says about the emotion that is before us today. -- The motion. before us today. -- The motion. Thanks to the necessary decisions the Chancellor of the Exchequer made in the Autumn Budget mat, we have been able to generate the revenue been able to generate the revenue that we will need to rebuild public services and particularly the NHS which was brought to its knees by the previous government.

I cannot claim to be a very careful student of the Liberal Democrat manifesto at the last election. I did notice that I think that they are revenue generating measures came to about £8.4 billion which is significantly lower than the £23 billion raised by the Chancellor's Budget. I think they should probably get their calculators out to figure out how they would generate the revenue rather than constantly criticising us for the decisions we have taken. I will make a bit more progress.

We are absolutely committed to rebuilding the NHS and rebuilding trust in government. We will never play fast and loose with public finances and will never try to pull the will of the public's us. -- wool. The last Labour government cut waiting lists to their lowest levels and raise patient satisfaction to highest levels and brought an historic health interventions like the smoking ban. What is less remembered is they also delivered the largest hospital-building plan in history. This meant the coalition that took over was presented with an NHS that was strong and firing on all cylinders.

That government and its successors set about weakening and undermining every aspect of our precious NHS, to the extent that by the time this government took over in July it was well and truly on its knees. Once again it falls to a Labour Government to take the necessary and great decisions for the future. We have put the new hospital programme on a sustainable footing with a timeline and a Budget that is consistent with fiscal rules and that so we have it from empty rhetoric into reality and provided the construction chain with vital certainty and restoring confidence in public sector procurement.

We are on the side of the builders, not the blockers. Our plan is credible, achievable, fully funded, grounded in fact, not fiction. I was born in the same town that I represent in Devon and it is a privilege of a lifetime to be part of a government that is carrying the torch into the 21st century and to be building a

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generation of hospitals that would do him proud. The original question was as on

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The original question was as on the order paper. The question is that the original words stand as that the original words stand as part of the question. I called the part of the question. I called the Shadow Minister, Doctor Caroline Johnston.

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Johnston. We can all agree that we want a world class NHS and that includes- depressed hospitals, technology, and depressed hospitals, technology, and staff. I've been delighted to see brilliant facilities created in my own area including a new A&E and these upgrades mean patients can
13:36
Caroline Johnson Portrait Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)
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receive the best care and people can be proud of the workplace environment. We must be alive to the environment. We must be alive to the challenges that face the NHS. We live in an ageing society. We also have a growing population meaning have a growing population meaning there are more people in services and the NHS treats 25% more people every day than 2010. New treatments and technologies have been developed, saving and improving lives with an ever more expensive pricetag and we had the COVID pandemic which I notice the Minister did not mention.

According to figures, spending in Labour's last term in office was £5 billion and then it nearly doubled to £11.4 billion and capital spending was nearly £1 billion higher than when Labour left government. This helped US Open over 100 surgical hubs, investing more in scanners, beds, theatres, to deliver 1 million more checks, scans, procedures closer to home and we are committed to delivering the new hospital program in full. Of course there was more to in full. Of course there was more to do and the challenges were evolving and there is pressure on the NHS increasing.

It now falls to the Labour government to address these problems and I want them to succeed and it is in the interest of other constituents that they do, what we have seen so far does not fill me with hope. One of the first choices of the Health Secretary in government was to pause the New Hospitals Programme and put it at risk. They have been meeting candidates promising new hospitals in the local area. Just like promises to the farmers, the pensioners, the businesses, these were hollow words.

I will give way.

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I am very grateful to my honourable friend for giving way. The Conservatives committed to restoring hospitals and my restoring hospitals and my constituents in Epping Forest depend upon the Princess Alexandra Hospital upon the Princess Alexandra Hospital in Harlow and the hospital in in Harlow and the hospital in Leytonstone and despite clear promises made by Labour on these hospitals prior to the election, they have now delayed the rebuilding of these vital hospitals, and it is particularly galling that criss- Leytonstone has planning.

Does the government agree that Labour should crack on with delivering the promised rebuilds on these hospitals?

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I absolutely agree with my honourable friend that they should but unfortunately what we have learnt is that promises from this Labour Government do not mean much.

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Labour Government do not mean much. I thank the Shadow Minister for giving way. On the point about promises not meaning much, she will be aware that the previous Conservative government promised a Conservative government promised a new hospital in 2023 and they said it was fully funded and yet there is

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it was fully funded and yet there is still not a spade in the ground. Can she explain where that money disappeared to please? I thank the honourable lady for

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I thank the honourable lady for Made clear it was fully funded but what has changed is there is a new government so perhaps the new government has made that choice. government has made that choice. These are choices that must limit. The Secretary of State commissioned The Secretary of State commissioned a review but decided not to prioritise these hospitals and he has chosen not to deliver these hospitals. We set our commitment to deliver them on time with agreement to the then-Chancellor and these decisions cannot be made.

The Secretary of State has chosen not to

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make the same commitment. It might be helpful if I correct

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It might be helpful if I correct a couple of facts. My predecessor a couple of facts. My predecessor made a clear statement on his election about funding for the refurbishment of chatting across Guptas hospital. I spoke to the Guptas hospital. I spoke to the chief executive of the hospital. -- chief executive of the hospital. -- Charing Cross Hospital. It was not just chatting across Guptas hospital but claims were made that were not found to be true.

My honourable friend is well aware of the accuracy of what I am saying. Would she like to reflect... I get complaints about that. Would she like to reflect on the accuracy of what she is saying in the light of the fact of what I have just said to her? Speak I thank the honourable gentleman for his intervention but it is not correct. The previous government committed clearly and the Chancellor clearly committed to this money at the hospital building project and the current government have not chosen to meet that commitment.

These are choices that are being made and for no patients and staff are being denied what they were promised for decades. Some hospitals, construction work will not begin until 2039. Can the Minister write to me with a date for when each hospital will be completed? It sets out the lack of ambition from the Labour Government. There are 40 hospitals in the first three waves of the program, 40 hospitals over 15 years but 515 specialist ability hospitals in England and so at this pace it is a cycle of 200 years to replace the NHS estate which is equivalent to a hospital being built in 1835 not being replaced until this year under the so-called ambitious program.

We can see the economic mismanagement of the Chancellor at the country. We cannot tax our way to growth and that is another reason why growth forecasts have been cut began. How do we know Labour will not come for those other hospitals with further delays in capital hospitals? Will the Minister give us a guarantee... I will give way. way.

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In 2012, and this was in my constituency, the Conservative government proposed to demolish my local hospital and there was a 7- local hospital and there was a 7- year campaign by residents to get a year campaign by residents to get a reprieve and it went into the New Hospitals Programme and went out Hospitals Programme and went out again. That is the history. Has she been living in a different world for been living in a different world for the last decade? It is one of not the last decade? It is one of not just underfunding and they are closing hospitals and then removing them from a programme that they invented.

It is now that it is in a viable programme that it is getting the help and support that it needs to be the world-class hospital it should be.

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I thank the honourable gentleman for his intervention and I confess to not being familiar with that to not being familiar with that hospital back to 2012, before I was elected because I have not elected because I have not personally work there as a doctor personally work there as a doctor but I advised Jeremy Hunt kept this open and I'm sure local residents will be disappointed this Labour Government have chosen not to Government have chosen not to rebuild it until 2035.

Will Labour, in an attempt to fill the black holes of their creation, return to PFI contracts to bridge the gap between the funding that they want and the fiscal situation they have created? I saw first-hand disaster disagreements which led to extortionate cost and inflexibility. One example, I was pleased to get myself my first office on my own as a doctor but I was promoted. I was given a desk, a computer, of whiteboard, a large whiteboard and I wanted it put on the wall and they told me I could not have put on the wall because it would cost £800.

This was more than 10 years ago. I wondered why and I wanted to get something from the local hardware store to put it up myself but I was not allowed to because it was against the contract of the deal that was negotiated. There are around 700 projects with a capital value of £57 billion and around £160 billion to be paid for maintenance. During COVID in 2021, analysis from the Guardian phoned nearly £500 million was being spent on interest charges.

This is money not being spent on patient care and a long lasting legacy from the last time Labour were in power and trying to get a run fiscal rules. These were fundamentally ideals and we can see yet again that when Labour negotiate, the taxpayer loses. Despite 14 years in opposition, Labour came into office without a plan for what they wanted to do for the NHS and instead it has been review, after review, after review. Consultation, after consultation with little action or delivery for what it means for patients and the taxpayer.

They have increased taxes on GPs, pharmacies, children's hospices, only to give some money back and expect them to be grateful. They cut the winter fuel payment for millions of the most vulnerable in the country and then sat back and watch the number of pensioners attending A&E increase. They keep them to trade union demands for an inflation-busting pay rise in exchange for no modernisation or reform and threats to strike again are back. They scrap the productivity plan we had fully funded which would have allowed billions of savings by the end of the decade.

Return to where we are now. We welcome capital funding to continue the programs we started in government for new surgical hubs and

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I think of for giving way and for

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I think of for giving way and for

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I think of for giving way and for finding me. I have a question to which I know the answer. The question is how many new hospitals question is how many new hospitals question is how many new hospitals were built? The issue is the 40 new hospitals bill by the last government were new, and there certainly weren't 40 of them.

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certainly weren't 40 of them. Thank you. I use the same as Tony Blair. How much of the initial capital funding allocated in the last budget will be used for repairs to hospitals that should be rebuilt? As the Labour and Liberal Democrat spokesperson said, what those delays lead to costing more money? Because work that otherwise unnecessary but have to be done to keep places open and also because inflation which we see rising under this government. How much would the extra national insurance job tax cost? These additional costs will be passed on to the NHS.

What that lead to less repair work undertaken with the government be making cuts elsewhere? If so, where will those cuts fall? The Chancellor has only hiked the taxes on working people and businesses stop today we saw borrowing has also increased by £30 billion a year with debt piling up and inflation on the rise. How does the Minister intend for future repairs and buildings to be funded? Yet more tax rises? More boring? Bringing back PFI? Cutting other areas of spending? These are the decisions of the government.

To govern is to choose. This government

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chooses, sadly the public has to pay for them. Fry called the first speaker, I

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Fry called the first speaker, I am announcing an immediate five minute time limit for backbench minute time limit for backbench speeches with the exception of the chair of the select committees. I now call Chris Curtis.

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now call Chris Curtis. Thank you. A few months ago I stood in this House and told a story stood in this House and told a story that frankly I wish I didn't have to that frankly I wish I didn't have to tell. It was about my 91-year-old grandmother, the night we had to
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Chris Curtis Portrait Chris Curtis MP (Milton Keynes North, Labour)
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rush her to hospital with a suspected heart attack. I need to be told on arrival that the average wait time was 9.5 hours. Our brilliant NHS staff worked brilliant NHS staff worked tirelessly, but after 14 years of Tory neglect, the truth is painfully Tory neglect, the truth is painfully clear. Our health service has been pushed to breaking point, and my pushed to breaking point, and my family did not get the urgent care we needed or deserved. But I know we needed or deserved.

But I know that my story isn't unique. I hear it time and time again. On the it time and time again. On the doorstep, in community centres, and in my constituency surgeries. There is a painful fear shared by so many that the NHS we all depend on won't be there when we need it most. And let's be honest about why this is. It's not because of NHS staff aren't working hard enough. Far from it, they are heroes in every sense of

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the word. On that point about how brilliant

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On that point about how brilliant our NHS staff are, I ask him to they agree with me first of all in agree with me first of all in commending my dad on his 40 years service but she got as an NHS staff member, has to be put on record, and secondly on the governments laser secondly on the governments laser focus on supporting NHS staff to stay in the NHS and work their way stay in the NHS and work their way up the ranks and lead a fulfilled career serving our constituents?

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career serving our constituents? I think over the intervention and the work of family have done for our National Health Service because it's not their fault that our NHS has been let down. It's because Tory government after Tory government decision after decision, 14 years of Conservative mismanagement has hollowed out our health service. And I welcome the opportunity to discuss this important issue today. While I might not see ITI on everything with the Liberal Democrats, there is one truth we cannot ignore.

The NHS is facing serious challenges and real change and investment is needed. But people back home aren't crying out for more motions, they are crying out for action, for delivery, the change they can see and feel, and with this Labour government, they are finally getting it. Because when we came into office, we didn't commit and managed client, we came into turn things around, to rebuild, to restore a sense of hope and pride in our public services starting with our NHS.

We've seen that work across the country with waiting lists falling six months in a row now, but in my city, this government has finally secured funding for the new women's and Children's Hospital the residents in Milton Keynes, a growing city so desperately need. With construction set to start 2027 to 2028. For too long families have walked through the doors of my local hospital that simply isn't fit for purpose. With some of the longest waiting lists in the country. And let me be equally clear, it's complete the unacceptable that it's taken this long to get funding in place.

Milton Keynes South been one of the fastest growing cities in the country for years and we've been left with far fewer hospital beds than we deserve, or than the national average. And despite some of the comments we've heard from members opposite, and despite the Conservative government plastering the new hospital on all of their leaflets, does anyone want to take a guess how much funding was actually secured by my hospital? By the last Conservative government? Fully funded you would assume it's 100%. 50%, 10%? 4% of the fully funded hospital they were promised was actually secured by the previous government.

So it's this Government that has found the other 96% to ensure that we can finally get the hospital then my city so desperately deserves built. We are now trying to deliver a hospital delayed not by local failure but by national dither, and thanks to this Government I get to be the MP that delivers what Tory MP after Tory MP missed my city but failed to deliver. But I'd like to ensure that we don't face further delays. Not just because of the health risk to my city but because of the cost increases.

I've been told every single month this project is held up cost an extra £700,000. 700,000 that can be invested in other important projects mentioned by members across this House. One potential hotdog is the hospital 2.0 program which I'm told is still as incomplete, so can I ask the Minister to look at whether this important work doesn't hold up projects like in Milton Keynes that we know are ready to go. We need a fast track to the Treasury to ensure that once the go-ahead is given, there are no further bureaucratic mortgages, especially given we have a track record in Milton Keynes of building to budget and on timetable.

Give us the tools and we will build a hospital. But we also must be honest about what happens after the ribbon is cut happens after the ribbon is cut because after we built this hospital, the health system in Milton Keynes will still be operating under immense strain. Thanks to the legacy of the last government, our ICB is one of if not the most underfunded per person in the entire country. That has real consequences. It means places like my local hospice which provides vital end-of-life care to many members of my family, are being left to scrape by.

This Sunday I will be running the London Marathon our local hospice because I care deeply about the work they do. Marathons shouldn't be the funding model for our healthcare system. When you sustainable investment, and that starts with fairer funding for our ICB and fairer treatment for a city that has been overlooked for too long. So I will support anything in this House that helps us fix our NHS, work with anybody who wants to rebuild it. I will also say this, I rebuild it.

I will also say this, I am proud to finally be a member of my government that isn't just talking about the problem, it's getting on with the solution. Let's build the hospital, fund our services properly, fix what's broken and give people back the healthcare system they so desperately deserve. system they so desperately deserve.
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Layla Moran Portrait Layla Moran MP (Oxford West and Abingdon, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you. Lord Darzi's independent investigation of the NHS clearly set out that the impact of capital starvation of the NHS in recent years and the importance of capital spending in fixing the health service. The report highlighted substantial shortfalls in capital investment combined with the tendency to raid capital budgets to cover in year spending deficits. So I welcome today's motion, allowing Parliament to highlight how important these issues are to the public in fact is the second Lib Dem Opposition Day in the second time we've debated healthcare, and because it is a priority for the country, so it is a priority for us.

The Health and Social Care Select Committee has taken a keen interest in the New Hospitals Programme. We've challenged the government to maintain its capital spending and not fall into the traps of the past where capital spending was redirected to fund day-to-day spending so I was pleased to before receive confirmation and now again receive confirmation and now again from the despatch box that from the Department the Chancellor's changes to the fiscal rules. Future raids on the capital budgets that succeed our budget for those who observe such things to fund the Ardell or the day-to-day spending budget.

And that is usually welcome. However while the protection of capital budgets is reassuring, I remain concerned about the transparency of how the funding is allocated by the Treasury. The charge levelled at the government is that funding is being funnelled into acute care to tackle the waiting list at the expense of funding primary care, infrastructure and care in the community. Sickly on commitments, we will not be seen capital funding sufficient to meet anything close to the unfunded anything close to the unfunded promises made by the Tories in 2020.

Nevertheless the principle of investing in a hospital infrastructure is a good one with money saved in the long run on maintenance and emergency repairs as well as providing a better quality of care. In the policy paper Plan for Implementation the New Hospitals Programme, the government stated the funding will only reach £3 billion in the early 2030s due to, " Other key prioritise in health spending such as funding to enable 60 of states shifts". That's a good thing but we need transparency about how the decisions were made over which projects were chosen.

In January 2 By which the schemes were scored and funding allocated, such as site constraints, maturity of planning permission, but it was disappointing that I understand and I'm willing to be corrected that this review was made without the involvement of trustees, teams responsible for delivering the rebuilding programs and as of last month, with the New Hospitals Programme scheme has been provided with the full details of how they were scored specifically against the criteria. The committee has asked how the department is prioritising schemes and has not received a clear answer.

So the question is very simple. In the interests of transparency, for the safety of state publish every single New Hospital Programme scheme that was subject to last year's review the details and findings of the department's assessment of them against each of the criteria that was published alongside his statement in the House of Commons on 20 January alongside his statement in the House of Commons on 20 January 2025. It's the very least that is deserved by those schemes who felt the prioritised, and we hearing many examples of those across this House.

But bluntly, and I choose to believe this is inadvertent, but it does frankly just look at bit shady. We've seen this happen before the previous government with the levelling up money. And the Public Accounts Committee who I know many members of this House have also been a member of, as was I, has a motto that some might is the best disinfectant, so if the answer is they won't publish that detailed assessment then the Minister needs to explain why. In so to my local area, which is like so many other areas also affected by this, the John Radcliffe Hospital which serves much of Oxfordshire, I visited last year and saw first-hand how their capacity to deliver care is being civilly constrained by the size and condition of the physical estate.

In particular we went to go visit the old site of the neonatal intensive care unit. They had to move the unit because they were literally worried about the ceiling coming down on sick children and in incubators. It was atrocious. They also want to be world leading. They are a tertiary care hospital, and that means they are able to perform very specialist surgery. They want a new building to do that in, and when they put it to government worth £28 billion, they were rejected. So instead they've gone out to seek private financing and is now going to cost the trust £46 million to deliver the exact same building.

Instead, we did not have made sense for the government to allow them to even borrow from government in order to build it and then pay it back Think what they could have done with

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that £18 million. The honourable lady is making a very powerful case about the amount very powerful case about the amount of money that has potentially been lost. I wonder if she would reflect on the role played by our party and on the role played by our party and the amount of money placed in the disaster this top-down disaster this top-down reorganisation of the NHS under the coalition government.

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coalition government. That was quite a Segway. We all know there were problems with the review and I welcome the fact it is being unravelled and I was vocal about it at the time. The savings that could have been made there alone could have been spent on other ways that we could have diverted people coming into A&E in the first place but across the wider University Hospitals Trust there is £100 million of backlog deemed high or significant risk.

Pausing these plans is a false economy and hospitals around the country are overspending on maintenance as a result. It's not limited to hospitals but we are saying it also for GP practices and I will declare an interest. My own surgery is one of those practices. It is doing incredibly well despite working out of an old Victorian building. They are desperate for a new site and we are top the for the ICP but the figure of £102 million which was mentioned earlier frankly does not touch the sides and it is like the John Radcliffe case, they are going out to seek private finance and they will find a way to pay that back slowly over time.

This is not even money that the Exchequer has to lay out in advance. They could get it back and even with inflation it would be less than what they would have to pay to do this with private finance. I would ask the government to think about this innovatively. It is not PFI. It is the government using its own borrowing rules. Bring vital investment in public services. It makes no sense they cannot do it. With mental health services, in Oxfordshire, we have undue cutting edge mental health hospital surrounded by research and innovation hubs and groundbreaking research on understanding brain health, discovering new drug health, discovering new drug therapies, new forms of.

It is a plan and it will cost £500 million and there are private benefactors including local businesses looking to fit into that but where is the funding pot for mental health trusts? It is not clear throughout

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that kind of money will come from. I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for giving way. I would like to share a story of a constituency called me story of a constituency called me last night. Her daughter had psychosis and was in the local hospital, locked in a room with two hospital, locked in a room with two security guards outside and a mattress on the floor. She was there for one week waiting for mental health provision in a setting outside the hospital and I would outside the hospital and I would like the Minister to tell me what mental health provision will be in place.



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I'm grateful to her and sorry to hear about the experience of our constituent and I think in the Darzi Report there was some talk about Report there was some talk about this for the very sickest in society and there is a current inquiry into severe mental ill-health because we know that so often mental health is know that so often mental health is forgotten in the NHS. It is sad but they invest more standard and it's a good thing it has been continued and the overall spend is going down for the first time in the last few years.

It is not a trend but a one- off. What we need to understand is what are the new innovative parts we can put together because we understand the government is working across the department and it will And I will end by saying I agree with what the thrust of the motion is trying to say and if we invest in capital expenditure, we have to take the approach of investing to save and we know that this matters to constituents and that they cannot get the services that they need and to achieve the shifts, we should not put them against each other and investing in capital will help them to succeed and we want the

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government and the NHS to succeed. And with an immediate 4th-minute

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And with an immediate 4th-minute time limit, Emily Darlington.

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time limit, Emily Darlington. I thank the honourable member for bringing forward the debate. We are bringing forward the debate. We are talking about Milton Keynes. We've talking about Milton Keynes. We've been waiting for a debate and get
14:06
Emily Darlington Portrait Emily Darlington MP (Milton Keynes Central, Labour)
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two at once. It is a personal story. My families, my in-laws, and unfortunately I lost both of my in- laws in the years up to me being elected to this place and so in terms of my family and my children, the team at the hospital in Milton Keynes, from the CEO to the consultants, the doctors, the nurses, the porters, they are also professional. The work that they have had to do to keep the NHS even going over the last 14 years is something that I am sure every person in this House would want to join me in thanking them for their absolute persistence.

I've been working closely with the hospital in my constituency for many years and as the deputy leader, the council had to step in when the government did not. It was with funding from the council that we were able to build the new cancer centre. It is with funding from the council that we were able to build the new radiotherapy unit which will open very soon. It is also with a close working relationship with the council that we have some of the lowest bed blocking in the country with teams integrated in the country making sure people who are able to go home go home with a care package as soon as possible because it is our belief in Milton Keynes and my belief as Deputy Leader that people want to be in their homes.

But, despite all of that, Milton Keynes government hospital has had some of the highest waiting lists in the country. Despite all of the work. This is partly due to the 14 years of underfunding in Milton Keynes. When you have over 30,000 people waiting for nonurgent elective operations and 1762 of them have been waiting for more than one year, these do not feel nonurgent and these are cases that do not allow people to live a proper life, play with grandchildren, go back to work as quickly as they should.

There is a social and economic costs. I'm pleased to say under the investment by this government to reduce waiting times, we have seen waiting times going down but they are still too high. Unlike a lot of other hospitals that we will talk about today, much of the Milton Keynes issue is that we are the fastest growing area in our region. In fact, we are growing at double the rate of anywhere else in the greater Southeast. That means our population is set to double by 2050 to 410,000 people.

On average, 11 people moved to Milton Keynes every day. This is
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Ian Roome Portrait Ian Roome MP (North Devon, Liberal Democrat)
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and time again in Milton Keynes is the investment that we need into the the investment that we need into the local hospital. This government and these MPs will deliver something these MPs will deliver something that was never delivered from the party opposite.

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party opposite. Laying in an operating theatre, a patient in my constituency can take great confidence in the when they are surrounded by some of the most dedicated healthcare professionals in the world. Astonishingly, the operating theatre around them has little change since it was first built in 1978. That theatre is barely 60% of the size the NHS now expects and cannot accommodate more modern equipment. Much of the air conditioning system has never been updated or is beyond repair breaks down.

This is a critical risk to patient care and there is no maintenance platform of £44 million, over £30 million of which is for the operating theatre alone. There are no independent providers and the next nearest hospital is more than 40 miles away. The trust says failing theatre facilities of the most urgent threat that it faces during the next five years. Not 10, but five years. What happens next? We know what happens. This exact scenario happened to the hospital in Torbay in 2018 with failing air handling facilities closing down operating theatres and leading to widespread cancellations of surgery for more than a year.

North Devon for more than a year. North Devon District Hospital faces the same nightmare. Thanks to waffle behaviour from the last government, not a single penny was put in place to do something about it. Now the Labour Government says none of the plans you build will be delivered until after 2035. North Devon is one of main hospitals underlined by the new hospital review of the government is failing to recognise the increased maintenance cost that will flow from the decision.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the government ignores the symptoms, the problems will only get worse. Our hospital trust has put forward alternative plans for lasting refurbishment at North Devon District Hospital that would cost just £250 million budget a fraction of what is needed but enough to keep the maximum number of operating theatres open beyond 2027 and avoiding spiralling costs down the lane. I must say that I thank the Minister for agreeing to visit North Devon District Hospital to see facilities and listen to the proposals of the trust board.

I'm grateful for are you listening, minister. I urge the government to seize the initiative, and act now before it is too late.
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Connor Naismith Portrait Connor Naismith MP (Crewe and Nantwich, Labour)
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In 2020, the Conservative government announced the New Hospitals Programme the Prime Minister of the time, known for his complicated relationship with the truth, said that speeds were in the ground. -- spades. It is clear from the disaster is 14 years in power that you cannot change on that alone and you cannot build the country on empty slogans. This government has committed to building these hospitals, not just with words but with cold hard cash and a credible plan for delivering. I note that the Liberal Democrats appeared to try to draw some kind of comparison between the inheritance left to the Coalition government with that left of this government by the previous Conservative government and I take the opportunity to remind you that the Coalition government was left on the Coalition government was left on the NHS with the highest patient satisfaction and the lowest with Elissonde record and I welcome the progress made by this Labour Government in bringing down waiting lists six months in a row.

I'm delighted that my local hospital will be in the first wave. We have been in desperate need of an upgrade been in desperate need of an upgrade for some time and building began for a new modular unit in 2025 to some services due to move there by the summer of 2025. The original outpatient department has planks within the roof which are beyond their lifespan and recent risk assessment I dreaded the condition as catastrophic come up with an incident likely.

-- Has agreed. This combines the problems of the empty promises. The rebuild will minute can serve my constituents that desperately need medical facilities for years to come on the value of that is immeasurable. I welcome the government commitment to changing the way that we use health services. The NHS is the most beloved institution and I served us effectively for a long time but it must adapt. That is why I particularly welcome the plans to turn Leyton into a health and care neighbourhood, transforming the site where provision is joined up, a place where resources are utilised well and people are actively involved in their care, a place where technology, digital, and data will help proactive and personal care to be more effective under place where we look after each other, collaborate, and where people

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A constituency of Horsham there's been a popular campaign to bring a general hospital for many decades general hospital for many decades without success. Given we didn't even make it onto Boris's fancy list of 40 hospitals are certainly not of 40 hospitals are certainly not going to succeed now. In the absence of the hospital, what we need is a strategy to move more of the treatments where distance really matters into smaller local clinics. matters into smaller local clinics. In Horsham that might include wing dressing and social health services.

With the honourable member agree With the honourable member agree that if we are going to continue to be denied the hospital we deserve, this kind of localised treatment strategy of the county are suggesting could be implemented at very low cost?

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I do agree. That we must move care into the community and where we are not able to build this hospitals as quickly as we'd like to, that as quickly as we'd like to, that community care is so important. The community care is so important. The NHS needs to be reformed to serve an ageing population, taking long-term patient care out of hospitals and putting care back into the heart of putting care back into the heart of communities. We need more joined up proactive Health and Social Care services and we need to change our services and we need to change our mindset from sickness to prevention.

In support of this the NHS In support of this the NHS Confederation set out in a recent report that working more at neighbourhood level, which this government intend to do, can improve people's health and well-being. I appreciate the efforts and sentiments from the Liberal Democrats today but big promises with no clear plan is what got us into this mess to begin with. Empty words to gain votes have destroyed voters confidence in our politics and only a sensible government with a credible plan for delivery of its commitments will restore that trust.

So I'm thankful that the approach from this government to set out a clear plan to deliver. The Labour Party is the party of the NHS. Back in the '40s from the original conception of the service to the modern day, and I'm confident as we've seen through the example I've cited from Leighton that this government will deliver for the

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British people. I'm grateful to the chance to

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I'm grateful to the chance to speak in today's debate and be able to give voice to the frustrations so many of my constituents are feeling many of my constituents are feeling over the way their right to access quality healthcare has been de- prioritised by this Labour prioritised by this Labour government. Many of my constituents, especially those in the north of my Reigate constituency are served by the Epsom and St Helier University hospitals NHS Trust. To be blunt,
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Rebecca Paul Portrait Rebecca Paul MP (Reigate, Conservative)
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the situation at the trust today is simply not sustainable. Clinically, financially or structurally. The trust currently operates two acute hospitals in at some and St Helier with duplicate services spread across both sites. This arrangement won a product of historical necessity today places considerable pressure on teams. Allocation of staff members between sites is challenging and service delivery are stretched. No matter how committed the staff, and their dedication is beyond question, they are constant asked to do more with less in buildings that are often quite literally falling apart around them.

To give just one brief example, earlier this year St Helier was forced to cancel scheduled blood tests because of widespread flooding in the phlebotomy section. We simply cannot go on like this. Indeed time is not a luxury we have with the estate now deteriorating faster than it can be fixed. The trust is spending millions every year simply to keep the most urgent problems at bay, patching leaks, coping with flooding and addressing the worst outbreaks of damp and mould. And I think we must all agree these are not the conditions in which 21st century healthcare should be delivered.

This is why it was so very disappointing to learn earlier this year that the planned specialist emergency care hospital in Sutton, a long-standing New Hospital Programme scheme was carefully conceived to address the very issues I've mentioned has been delayed to the point that work will now not even begin until 2030 to 2035 with opening not until 2037 at the earliest. The new hospital at Sutton will consolidate emergency care into one state-of-the-art facility, deliver world-class treatment, faster access to care and safe outcomes.

At the same time will allow for major investment at Epsom and St Helier hospitals, helping to modernise crumbling buildings, improve plant care pathways and ensure that most services remain close to home. Under the trust plan, 85% of services would remain on their sites including diagnostic appointments. Locals will continue to receive the vast majority of their care where they always have but they would benefit from shorter waiting times and access to better facilities, particular surgery. I believe the new hospital of Saturn is a once in a generation chance to overhaul healthcare provision and ensure my constituents receive the

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high-quality care they deserve in a timely fashion. I thank them in the for giving

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I thank them in the for giving way. The new Sutton Hospital sits in my constituency of Sutton & Cheam, and we were promised in 2020 by the former member that the hospital former member that the hospital would be opened in 2025. Indeed he continues to have the claim upon his website. Does the honourable member website. Does the honourable member agree that the failure to deliver any new hospital in Sutton Borough, any new hospital in Sutton Borough, whether it be at Belmont or at St Helier, is entirely down to the failure of the previous government for not funding and not bringing forward the projects whilst they

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were in power? I thank him for his intervention

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I thank him for his intervention and I can confirm to him if we were in power, we would have been delivering hospital. To be very clear, the trust is ready to move clear, the trust is ready to move forward. Clinical consensus has been secured. What is now actually needed secured. What is now actually needed is commitment from the government to drive the program forward. After all, patients and staff alike deserve better than to spend another decade or more in facilities that are not fit the modern healthcare delivery.

They deserve to know the promises made to the New Hospital Programme will be honoured, not quietly shelved or endlessly deferred by this government. I urge ministers to look again at the decision to delay this item emergency care hospital and to provide a long-term certainty the trust needs to proceed not in 2035 but now.

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I'm glad today we are taking the time to discuss this immensely important issue of the state of our important issue of the state of our NHS hospitals. Nowhere is it more obvious that our NHS has been broken over the last 14 years than our over the last 14 years than our crumbling NHS estate. Our NHS has been starved of capital funding and the backlog bill now stands at over the backlog bill now stands at over £11 billion. Research from the NHS Confederation shows that nine in 10 Confederation shows that nine in 10 NHS leaders believe that the crumbling NHS estate is undermining their ability to tackle the elective their ability to tackle the elective backlog.

This is devastating and apparent as well in my own constituency were our local hospital has been plagued by flooding, sewage overflows, failing left and outdated equipment. The need for a new hospital isn't new. My predecessor's predecessor described as no longer fit for purpose many years ago and pledged their time to replace it. And the LibDem opposition are right today in their condemnation of the previous governance record with row add to their fanciful hospital program which only seem to exist in the mind of Boris Johnson and if in the reality of the Treasury's decisions.

Residentshave been led up the garden path time and time again. False promises and work never beginning and today not a stone has been laid, ground not broken and in the election no business case was agreed, hospital design still being tweaked and no contractor appointed.
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Danny Beales Portrait Danny Beales MP (Uxbridge and South Ruislip, Labour)
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£70 billion -- million had ever been provided. I'm grateful for the progress we now make with the progress we now make with the realistic honours deliverable times realistic honours deliverable times the of the program. After years of broken promises people are fed up and need action and delivery, credible commitments so that's what's disappointing the opposition what's disappointing the opposition motion today is misleading again, promising to deliver all the hospital simply through a new task hospital simply through a new task force.

This is and how hospitals are built, not how they are paid for built, not how they are paid for doesn't feel to me like a credible funding program but a recipe for more talk, more delay and more in action. And in the community in Uxbridge and South Ruislip and now reassure the Hillington hospital has been included in wave one with the capital increase of nearly £1 billion, solid agreements and funding commitments, real Plan for Change. The hospital are now finalising the business case and design and the contract will be appointed alongside in 2027's construction works to start in 2028.

It is essential the new program continues to work it pays to provide my constituents and all residents with the quality of care they deserve, and I'm sure the Minister will expect I and other members to hold them to account the delivery of the program. In terms of concrete actions we take to deliver hospital program more quickly, long-term revenue for new nave one teams is much needed, particularly long-term funding so they can work it pays. A similar fight planning process for new hospitals, to welcome the governance planning reforms and investor Bill and I hope that LibDem members will support the infrastructure bill which seeks to speed up the delivery of critical national and.

As well as hospitals as discussed today, we are sending investment right across our investment estate -- we need. Pharmacies wanting to do more desperately lacking the privacy of space to deliver those pharmacy first services from the sexual health service in my constituency, crammed into an outdated building using every inch of space and desperate for more modern space to do preventative work.

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I agree entirely with the point he makes about the need for investment outside of just the investment outside of just the hospitals. Thus you also agree that we need smart investment? Does NHS we need smart investment? Does NHS Trust alongside Somerset and Dorset University Hospital have submitted a University Hospital have submitted a business case for an integrated electronic records system that will allow them to work together, share allow them to work together, share information and save the NHS money ultimately.

The secret with me this is exactly the kind of technological advancement the NHS should be funding?

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funding? I do think we need to think just about buildings but digital infrastructure and investment in a whole range of capital investment needs for the NHS for some modern fit for purpose service that sounds like the measures he suggests are sensible. There is a strong desire in the emerging 10 year plan to shift neighbourhood health service which will require capital which will require capital investment. The three sites have investment to make this a reality, so I believe we need a long-term infrastructure strategy for the NHS alongside our new 10 year health plan.

I welcome the significant increase in capital spending the NHS at the last budget. I also think the government's new commitment to protect capital budgets and the NHS is vital. Far too often in the last they were raided for short-term investment to flood -- plug revenue-based gaps and that has come to an end and much welcome too. My constituents have waited long enough for Hillington hospital. We don't need more taskforces or reviews. We need concrete funded plans of action. And this is a program which is fully funded and ready to be delivered.

At last we have in this New Labour government a fully funded New Hospitals Programme and to look forward to construction starting and working with this Government to deliver the health services that are fit for the future.

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Thank you. I fully support reversing the delays to the New Hospital Programme, and I would like to emphasise the importance of investment in community health provision, which offers multiple benefits to patients and the health benefits to patients and the health service. There is currently no out of hours health care provision anywhere in my constituency. Patients typically have to travel to
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Brian Mathew Portrait Brian Mathew MP (Melksham and Devizes, Liberal Democrat)
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Patients typically have to travel to Swindon, Bath, or Salisbury for urgent medical treatment. Or at best, the minor injury units in Chippenham or Trowbridge. Most of the constituency, including Melksham have limited public transport. Patients unable to travel by car face lengthy bus journeys. And yet in Melksham we already have a working community hospital. Offering a range of healthcare services from physio to consultant outpatient appointments but without a minor injuries unit since 2008.

People in need of urgent treatment for cuts and broken bones turn up at the hospital only to be turned away without so much as a sticking plaster. This simply is not good enough. Melksham is seeking... Seeing ongoing development in and around the town driving population growth. Yet we've not seen the investment in services and infrastructure to match. In the long term strategic goal, to shift more care out of larger hospitals into community hubs. Is there not a clear case to consider expanding services under underutilised sites such as Melksham community hospital? Investment in services including a minor injuries unit at community sites such as Melksham not only offer greater convenience and potentially improved outcomes for patients but is also cost-effective, decreasing demand on overstretched services that major hospitals and I hope very much the Department will consider the compelling case for upgrading community hospitals and I hope to meet and discuss with the Minister specific case for Melksham and to bring representatives from the Friends of Melksham Hospital with me.



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It is a pleasure to follow my honourable friend. The House is about to be treated to more information about hospitals. On this side of the House, we are incredibly side of the House, we are incredibly proud of the NHS will stop it is one of the country's greatest achievements, founded on the principle that everyone regardless of background or circumstances of background or circumstances should have access to high quality care at the point of use and that simple idea has saved millions of lives and offered comfort, healing, hope to generations.

After 14 years of NHS, the NHS was on life support record within this, a workforce worn down and undervalued, hospitals crumbling. It is the legacy of the previous government, a legacy of neglect, underfunding, broken promises, and now we are clearer than in the New Hospitals Programme introduced in 2020 which is meant to be the flagship plan to modernise
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Andrew Cooper Portrait Andrew Cooper MP (Mid Cheshire, Labour)
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the NHS and replace crumbling buildings and ensure patients and buildings and ensure patients and staff at safe environments that they deserve but it was built on shaky foundations and plagued by delays foundations and plagued by delays and confusion and the complete lack of funding and the reality behind of funding and the reality behind the headlines was that few hospitals got any real progress and in many cases the money was not there and to cases the money was not there and to take the hospitals which serve my take the hospitals which serve my constituency and four others, all known to be riddled with substandard concrete, and the experts warned of catastrophic risk to patient safety with structural engineers saying the incident was likely.

In simple terms, these buildings were falling down. What did the previous government do? The plans to rebuild the hospitals were blocked and the choice to ignore warnings, patients, NHS staff working every day in buildings declared unsafe and it was not until 2023 that the previous government finally amended the program to include it and the other infested hospitals. By then, Geos had been wasted which was time we did not have and even that decision came about a real plan or a timeline and crucially without the funding required to do the job.

What was offered was not the solution but. Dresses progress. The promises crumble faster than the hospitals crumble faster than the hospitals that they failed to rebuild. We are not just talking about change but rebuilding the NHS from the foundations by rebuilding trust that the government will deliver on NHS promises and we are proving a tad late in Hospital with funding -- at Leighton Hospital. It is not just top up action and rebuilding is not just a matter of replacing concrete but an opportunity to do something bigger and we have the chance to build a moderate and resilient facility that will serve generations to come and meet the challenges of the 21st century.

It's not just bricks and mortar about people, care, building a system that protects values. We are reducing waiting lists with better use of technology and support for overstretched staff, training and recruiting the doctors, nurses, carers of the future and ending the sticking plaster politics of the last 1.5 decades, building an NHS fit for the future.

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In rural communities like Maine, issues are often about the distance issues are often about the distance we travel to get healthcare and particularly to reach hospitals and so in our part of the world,
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Tim Farron Portrait Tim Farron MP (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)
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so in our part of the world, Morecambe Bay, we are funded as if we have one hospital but have to have three and one way to get around this is with funding for GP surgeries to provide injury care in places like Grange, Hawkshead, beyond, but on April 1 this month the local ICB cancelled out and 1221 were pushed onto the urgent trip centre for candle, potentially overwhelming that centre and causing huge harm to people who live in those places and undermining the funding model for those surgeries and I would love it if the Minister would have words with the ICB to challenge this and on that point, tomorrow, the ICB board for Cumbria will meet and on the agenda should be the decision to approve and seek a new provider of GP services in the community.

We have none for three months the excellent doctors are retiring and leaving their poor sound they have dragged their feet for three months, despite the community clamouring, and there are calls for a replacement for the GP surgery to serve that community. When it comes to the New Hospitals Programme, I acknowledge the fantasy figures the last government had behind the non-existent programme but I point out that the larger district general hospital serving the southern part of my constituency, we have the land available right next to Lancaster available right next to Lancaster University and there is no logical reason for it to be the last division of the third phase, not built until 2030s and I urge the Minister to think on that and so she will be unsurprised to hear me use my last bit to talk about radiotherapy and in the northern part, people are able to get good quality for treatment if they have cancer in Carlisle put in the southern three quarters, people have to make return journeys for weeks on end to get radio therapy and that is outrageous and why we are asking for an extra unit at the general hospital and this is not just about convenience.

Radiotherapy to be the recommendation and it to be the primary treatment for cancer in 53% of cases and in the UK it is shamefully only 36% of cases and in Lancashire and South Cumbria, 42nd with only 29% of people with cancer receiving radiotherapy, in no small part down to the failure to provide it in communities and the longer the journeys to treatment, the shorter the life expectancy of people suffering with cancer and so I urge the Minister to make the decision been calling for four years and add to the chemotherapy in candle and the diagnostics we have and the cancer surgery and it has been wonderful to win those campaigns but we are missing radiotherapy and it is time we brought it so people can have shorter journeys and longer lives.



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I feel I have a unique case to

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I feel I have a unique case to make in this debate and the Minister make in this debate and the Minister will now that on behalf of my constituents and the council, we do not want the new emergency hospital not want the new emergency hospital
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Siobhain McDonagh Portrait Dame Siobhain McDonagh MP (Mitcham and Morden, Labour)
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at Belmont which is in phase 2 of the hospital rebuilding program and in direct contradiction to the Member for Reigate, I have fought against this for 25 years, against all governments, my own, Coalition, Conservative. This plan will take the hospital away from my constituents with the British health need and with the largest levels of deprivation and the lowest car use and the highest hospital admissions and with the greatest level of chronic conditions and take it to healthy, wealthy, Belmont at a cool cost of £1.5 billion.

The hospital cost of £1.5 billion. The hospital that would provide 80 fewer beds than we have at the moment, serving 83,000 fewer patients and will put increased pressure on St George's Hospital in tooting and Croydon University Hospital. Both have been called out by the Care Quality Commission in need of having fewer patients arriving at the sites, only to have a scheme which will give them more patience. This scheme depends on 3% annual reduction in hospital length of stay is, 3% reduction in activity.

What hospital in the country has experienced a reduction in activity? It is based on increased access to mental health services which should have been provided last year, developer of community paediatric pathways, a child development centre which is yet to be seen. The reopening of the Wilson Hospital which has not been reopened and the money has not found and it remains closed. It is also and it remains closed. It is also dependent on an increase in home births with the highest levels of social housing, the greatest posting deprivation at the most overcrowded conditions in the gym.

This is the issue brick and large. Hospital services taken away from those who need it most and given to those who need it least. 50 million has been spent consulting on this scheme. Nobody wants it and nobody supports it. Leave the hospital as it is and spending money that you have to give better services to those who need them most.

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The motion itself talks about hospitals across the country and
14:42
Robin Swann Portrait Robin Swann MP (South Antrim, Ulster Unionist Party)
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hospitals across the country and they want to recognise that most of the debate today has been about England but I want to highlight the situation with the decisions made and also the changes to fiscal rules and how that affects Northern and how that affects Northern Ireland and investment there. Capital investment in the health estate in Northern Ireland has been broadly stable for 15 years prior to 2019 and that was until COVID in 2020 with the pandemic saying an increase in capital investment and the outcome of the pandemic combined with the situation in Ukraine significantly disrupted the global supply chain and has increased production cost significant.

This is compounded by the subsequent and serious problem in Northern Ireland and the two most recent budgets have meant the funding available for capital investment in Northern Ireland is now projected to be 16% lower per head of population than projections for 2025-26 and saw much lower than the assessed relevant need suggest. I listen to many English colleagues across the House with regard to the complaints that they have and capital investment, I am quite envious of we are being allocated because it is in contrast to what we have.

Much of our capital budget is project-based and as the former Minister for health in Northern Ireland I'm acutely aware there is need to address the serious risks across the region and that includes tackling the backlog of maintenance liability which currently in Northern Ireland sets out 1.4 billion. Also no, as a constituency MP, I see the impact the budgets are having on projects in my own constituency in Southampton. For example, the new health centre, for instance, is a much-needed purpose-built facility to provide the best environment for assessment, treatment, and recovery.

Under the budget provided by the executive to the Department of Health, there is not enough to fund what has been committed to and even those flagship projects are to make current contractual commitments are to look at design and development or fund maintenance of existing property. The projects have massive potential and they are being lost because the executive cannot seem to think six months down the line never mind 1-2 years. Nevertheless, it remains high on the agenda of our Department of Health and I would hope the parties responsible for setting funding allocations would consider the consequences of their decisions and recognise the critical need for this project, but also that of the mother and baby unit for Northern Ireland and provide that centre for mental health and well- being.

I joined the honourable member of Milton Keynes but he said motions are welcome but he would like to see action. I think action would be certainty of budget and also surety over the current budget and I look forward to hearing from the Secretary Of State from Health when he talked about transformation and how transformation of the health service needed funding and political will and I hope, following today's will and I hope, following today's
14:46
Simon Opher Portrait Dr Simon Opher MP (Stroud, Labour)
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I must confess I'm slowly surprised the Lib Dems have brought an Opposition Day to a about hospitals stated that way because I think the last thing we need in this country is a load of promises we cannot keep. And one of the things that I'm proud of, being on the side of the bench is that we have provided sustainable and affordable plans in the New Hospital Programme. But also I'd like to point out I've been on the doorstep quite a lot in the last few weeks for the county council elections and the number one priority that comes up is GP access.

And we have provided 1.5 thousand new GP posts in this country. The waiting lists have been going down for the last five months. And also dentistry, emergency dentistry is also very commonly brought up on the doorstep. We provided 700,000 new appointments. There are many other things in the NHS which are crumbling actually, and I see the crumbling of the hospital buildings as a metaphor for what's happened to the NHS over the last 14 years.

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He's busy talking about the really important work done by Laura really important work done by Laura Darcy and the findings of programming hospitals in England, programming hospitals in England, therefore he'd be interested to hear the recent figures show the high risk repairs needed to Scottish hospitals, the bill for this stands hospitals, the bill for this stands at £64 million of repairs that have not been carried out under the S&P and this includes two high risk and this includes two high risk repairs that are badly needed in Fife, used by some of my constituents which have been constituents which have been outstanding since 2016.

And I wonder if he agrees with me that the Scottish government should be using some of the record funding provided to them by this Labour government to fix our hospitals in Scotland?

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Like to thank my right honourable

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Like to thank my right honourable member, and of course I think it's absolutely essential we maintain the hospitals so they actually save to treat patients, and I agree about treat patients, and I agree about spending the money, and in fact the backlog bill as we know from repairs backlog bill as we know from repairs in the NHS runs at £13.8 billion. So in the NHS runs at £13.8 billion. So I work as a GP still in a GP practice, and a note that Lord Darzi practice, and a note that Lord Darzi estimates that £37 billion have been spent on the NHS since 2010, and it feels like that when you work in the NHS.

There is a massive building project ahead of us. Can I also say that the previous Labour government built 100 new hospitals, and one of them was the Vale hospital in Dursley which we started and I had a hand in 2008, and these community hospitals as many honourable friends have said are really crucial to how the NHS works. And so we must invest the NHS works. And so we must invest in our community. We must use them properly, and they provide specialist/services and NHS beds for inpatient.

As we've heard, there were meant to be 40 new hospitals in the last few years, and it turned out that none of them got built and they weren't even funded. So moving on, actually I would also say that we need to get out of hospitals, need to get our care back in the community. And I would also say the honourable Member was saying about GPs, 20% of GP premises was built before the inception of the NHS, and I actually inherited one of these in Dursley and we've built a purpose- built surgery 20 years ago which we are still enjoying the benefits of command that provides patients with excellent services, so we must invest, and I was glad to see £100 million being invested by this government in GP surgeries.

But also we have two pole care out of the hospital into the community, and I was so pleased to see the 80 million has been put into GP advice and guidance which allows consultants to give GPs advice so they can care for patients in the community. And I'm also really delighted with this push for neighbourhood the health sectors. Neighbourhood health centres must be the way back. We must bring back the family doctor. That's what really makes patients better, the continuity of care that is so important, and we also have to integrate Health and Social Care in the community so we can pull patients out of hospitals.

And that also applies to emergency care. Vitamin E people having to go to big district general hospitals overwhelmed a knee places where actually at the moment only 20% of acute admissions go through a GP, and they are the best people to avoid admissions. So we have to change all of this. What I would say, our NHS staff and patients deserve better than we have. They deserve facilities that reflect the excellence of care provided within, and the Labour government is committed to rebuilding not just our hospitals but our trust and our integrity of our public services.
14:51
Freddie van Mierlo Portrait Freddie van Mierlo MP (Henley and Thame, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you. Hospitals matter to everyone but hospitals fully apart help no one. Not patients, staff, and not the economy. The government have called the NHS broken. Labour conservatives brightly and scored its management under their leadership. So tell me why are they now making the same mistakes? Under the revised New Hospital Programme, the building of the Royal Berkshire Hospital will not commence for another decade. There is little prospect of a new Royal Berkshire serve the communities of Henley, Reading, Newbury, Brighton and Windsor until the 2040s.

Doctors who have worked in the NHS for over 30 years believe they will never work in modern buildings. The counter centre alone is 164 years old. --

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Cancer. He talks of members of staff with

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He talks of members of staff with long service. A former nurse with 40 years experience in the NHS recently years experience in the NHS recently contacted me. She took her husband into hospital with complex needs, a into hospital with complex needs, a hand infection, and they were forced to wait for over 12 hours in a tiny to wait for over 12 hours in a tiny cubicle with no ventilation, and it was just paining me to hear that was just paining me to hear that story.

She worked so hard for the NHS and she really felt that it was down on its knees, since my honourable friend agree with me that this is a damning indictment of the state of our hospitals that we urgently need to pursue a major 10 year capital investment program to get them back up to speed?

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She is absolutely right to point out the impact of the state of the NHS on the brilliant people who work NHS on the brilliant people who work there. My own sister is a nurse in the Royal Preston Hospital and she tells me just how hard it is to walk past people being cared for in corridors. And every week at the corridors. And every week at the Royal Berkshire, and operations Royal Berkshire, and operations cancelled due to power cuts, water supply issues, broken lifts and malfunctioning temperature controls.

There is a lost appointments, lost efficiency in the NHS and flood, sinkholes plague the foundations of the hospital which now requires relocation. But sites identified that a suitable asset to be put on the market at the end of this year. Further acquiescence of the government to secure the site will mean carefully laid plans and funding amount to nothing. And there are hospitals that were never considered. As my honourable friend the Member for Oxford West & Abingdon pointed out, and recently I also visited the hospital in Oxford that cares for patients with severe mental health conditions requiring inpatient care.

Including schizophrenia, personality disorders and psychosis. And I was shocked at the conditions patients live in. Tight spaces in dark rooms with infrastructure built in Georgian periods. Rooms that reminded me of more recent visits to HMP Hunter came. And I said this rather nervously to the member of staff showing me around, worried I might offend them. And they simply gently held my arm and said Freddie, white you think we showed you these rooms? Staff told me of how cramped conditions make it difficult to take breaks during the day.

One worker showed me their windowless cupboard office, hardly great for their own mental health. Staff also tell me of her working in Georgian buildings impacted the quality of their work. Sightlines in common room areas are obstructed by pillars, rooms difficult heat and security difficult to maintain. Only one would cost a fraction of a physical health hospital, and the government promised to put mental health on the same footing as physical health. So tell me, why does the revised New Hospital Programme not include a single mental health facility? Both these hospitals have been devastated by a lack of foresight from the government.

The cut hospital spending is a decision to save money but it's a false economy. Over the next 10 years repairs to the Royal Berkshire Hospital projected to cost £400 million. 1/4 of the cost of a new hospital. Add to this, the many other neglected hospitals and the loss is unthinkable. The proper investment in modern infrastructure is needed now. In my constituency we have the memorial hospital which just shows how good the NHS can be with modern infrastructure. Anyone who receives care here through the Royal Berkshire Hospital trust and Oxford health trust sings its praises.

And now hosts over 30 specialties and plans to expand further. So let's give our hospitals the chance to excel.

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And with an immediate three minute time limit, Laura Kyrke- Smith.
14:57
Laura Kyrke-Smith Portrait Laura Kyrke-Smith MP (Aylesbury, Labour)
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Smith. Pleasure to speak in this debate because unlike the previous government who made off-the-cuff commitments to new hospitals that were never going to be affordable or deliverable, I'm really proud to be deliverable, I'm really proud to be part of a Labour government that only commits to what we can afford and this text our promises and delivers them. And the rapid progress we've made towards improving the NHS, reorienting it towards frontline delivery is a fantastic example of that. Over 3 million more appointments delivered in the first nine months of government well ahead of target, over 100,000 people treated on time and these are great statistics but when I go out and knock on doors and meet residents, hear the difference it's made to them and their families.

People back on their feet, back at work, back being active parents and grandparents universally could have imagined and is making such a difference to their lives. This is politics delivering for people not the politics of easy answers but the politics of progress and change people's lives. But as we continue in this work of transforming the NHS, including through the New Hospitals Programme, and like to highlight one change I think would be particularly important in my constituency of Aylesbury. And that's the need to better integrate primary and secondary care.

As it has great potential for savings if you think about the secondary and primary care estates in the round but more importantly it helps bring traditionally hospital-based care close to the community. Care that is better and provides better outcomes for people. As I've said in this place before in Aylesbury we face an acute challenge with our GP surgeries was to be had new Housing Estates Bill in a really poorly planned way under the previous government without the necessary GP services being provided and we had particular high levels of deprivation in Aylesbury in the county of Buckinghamshire which is really marked by an inequality, and that contributes to the pressures we are finding in our GP services.

The governor has only made really significant progress in terms of improving GP provision. 1,500 new GPs now recruited and really successful negotiations with the British Medical Association resulting in the biggest uplift in funding for GPs in years, the thing that will start to make a real

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difference. Grateful. Has she in her

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Grateful. Has she in her conversations with her GP's had from them any feedback as to what the increased employer National Insurance contributions are going to do for the growth of provision of

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her GPs? Am in regular contact with my GPs

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Am in regular contact with my GPs and I know they are really pleased with the uplift in funding they have received through the contract, and they are looking forward to what they are looking forward to what they will be able to deliver with that. But my point today is that as we think about the future of hospital provision, we have to think about our healthcare in the round, and we have to think about what each community needs more broadly, how we join up the services that our hospitals provide with the services provided by our GPs and other community services.

I'm really excited by the work already under way in Buckinghamshire to establish integrated neighbourhood teams, and I'm so pleased by this government's commitment to neighbourhood health centres. In Buckinghamshire and Aylesbury in particular, all of our key health organisations are coming together, including the acute and community NHS Trust, primary care, the local authority public health, mental health trust, and voluntary sector organisations and agreeing a collective plan for the next 10 years which I think could be transformative, pulling their collective resources and their teams across the hospital and three primary care networks.

And looking at how they can create a shared centre in Aylesbury the share delivery of services but also better delivery of services but also better As we build hospitals of the future across the country, we must plan and that be, not just hospital care but I joined up approach across services, bringing care closer to communities because it is what people want and need. It will mean as many people as possible can access care close to home and managed care in communities as much as possible.
15:01
Charlotte Cane Portrait Charlotte Cane MP (Ely and East Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)
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Many of our hospitals are crumbling but even those that are pure sound may contain hidden dangers, notably asbestos. I met a constituent who is suffering from mesothelioma contracted from asbestos and he was very concerned about how many hospitals and other public buildings still have asbestos within them, pitting future people at risk of getting this terrible disease. We really need a proper survey to find out where all this asbestos is and plan for the safe removal of all of it.

I was pleased to hear the Minister talk about the work he's trying to do to get more funding for GPs because it is one of the big problems we have in East Cambridgeshire and of my local we nearly lost the GP in Sutton and residents were told to go to nearby GPs but in rural areas GP a few miles away is accessible to anyone without a car and more recently unexpected changes to the bus route with no notice left patients suddenly unable to get to a GP.

We have seen a lot of new builds in my constituency and they desperately need a larger surgery and I looked around the conditions the staff were working in and the tiny area that they have for the pharmacy and the difficulties that they have in serving a larger community that the surgery was meant for. They've been trying to get the new surgery for years but the procedure for enlarging a new surgery is incredibly complex and they have got to put together funding for a range of sources and these GPs are meant to be spending time helping patients but are spending time building business plans and looking for funding and we heard from a member opposite that they desperately need NHS dentists in the constituency.

We do not have any major surgeries and we rely on them being in good conditions. We need excellent GP surgeries and NHS dentists that can

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serve us into the future. This is a welcome chance to talk about challenges to the health about challenges to the health service. The Darzi Report was a stark demonstration into the wee the stark demonstration into the wee the health service was left by the last government. Colleagues will say government. Colleagues will say slightly deceitfully that Labour MPs slightly deceitfully that Labour MPs supported the delay but members will know that when we are honest, you cannot understand what will happen.

This includes the staff and patients in the building, weakened by austerity and decimated by COVID. Lord Darzi talked about £37 billion on their investment and...
15:05
Josh Fenton-Glynn Portrait Josh Fenton-Glynn MP (Calder Valley, Labour)
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Does he share my real discomfort at the goal of the Member for making the point that this is somehow the government making the same mistakes that the Conservative government made in the 2010s under a coalition

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government and the work started with the Liberal Democrats. I think if the member were to

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I think if the member were to reflect on what it said then I think reflect on what it said then I think he would now that these things always go deeper. What have we always go deeper. What have we inherited? 14,000 unnecessary deaths inherited? 14,000 unnecessary deaths in A&E each year. NHS waiting list peaked at 7.7 million people waiting peaked at 7.7 million people waiting anxiously, needing treatment, tumours drawing, bodies going further from being well. There are people being sent to hospital who did not need to be there because social care was failed and forgotten by the previous government.

That is 20% of beds in our hospitals taken up by people who do not need to be there. We have got work to do. I'm concerned we will get caught up in a discussion of hospitals without fixing the systems within them that we need to and that is why we talked about the shift from hospital to community. We have got to stop people needing hospital because they were failed by care close to home and that is why we have to look at this.

From fitness to prevention, we can have the best buildings but with less prevention they will still be full and fighting from analogue to digital because every week we hear about how people are caught between systems, between computer systems. I welcome this to be that we must not fetishise buildings over people. -- Welcome this debate. We must think holistically about the decade of national renewal the public voted for and we have to look cross-party and in good faith at all of the health service.



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In North-East Hampshire my constituents are predominantly served by two hospitals. The one to served by two hospitals. The one to
15:07
Alex Brewer Portrait Alex Brewer MP (North East Hampshire, Liberal Democrat)
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served by two hospitals. The one to , known to be highly unstable, so rightly included in the first phase of the New Hospitals Programme and paradise that they think rebuild. Basingstoke Hospital has been moved to phase 3 and is scheduled sometime between 2037-39, leaving staff and patients with 15 years to endure crumbling buildings. The decision was made without a ministerial visit, not one. I have visited the hospital and then what is needed and I can tell the ministers about the repairs required to the ceiling to stop the rain coming into patient wards, the windows that cannot close or are not double glazed, the air or are not double glazed, the air Which keep the air clean and operating theatres that are already at maximum capacity.

Replacing them will become essential within five years and there is not physical room to add to what is there. I can tell ministers about the flooring that connects important parts of the hospital over a car entrance which is in a poor state, held together by industrial tape and patients are being trotted across this on a daily basis. There is the use of tape holding the states together in a literal and metaphorical statement for the state of the hospital and this country.

Ministers would know this if they had visited the hospital. Of the repairs needed, one third are high risk. This is not the situation we want related to

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hospital structures and systems. I will give way. I thank my honourable friend for a giving way in this important debate and I agree with you point debate and I agree with you point out that it appears we are talking about in hospital infrastructure do any of us want to use the phrase 'high risk'. In my own hospital, I have met the Minister about the issues and look forward to welcoming her little in the year and Stepping her little in the year and Stepping Hill, despite bidding reportable Hill, despite bidding reportable £134 million, is not on the program and I'm sure the honourable member agrees that the health of the nation is related to the wealth of the nation and so investing in hospital infrastructure is a good investment in the population.



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I thank the honourable friend for her intervention and health and wealth are two sides of the same wealth are two sides of the same coin and we need to invest in both. This is why it is a complete false economy to be making these delays. Maintaining Basingstoke and not Hampshire for the next 15 years will Hampshire for the next 15 years will cost almost as much as the rebuild itself, making it a complete false economy and the categorically bad economy and the categorically bad financial decision as well as a bad financial decision as well as a bad health decision.

There is no point investing in a multi-million pound filtration system in a building that is falling down. In June 2024, the Prime Minister in his role as Leader of the Opposition visited racing stock tone but not the hospital and -- Basingstoke town but not the hospital. I asked the Prime Minister about the logic of the delay after the announcement but it would clearly be significant financial burden for taxpayers while limiting delivery and I was told the hospital would be built but not when. This is a clear step backwards.

Perhaps accepting the shadow minister we all know the situation the previous government left the country in but is not the reason for economically and medically unsound decisions now. So, I would like to invite the Minister, any minister, to visit Basingstoke Hospital with me to understand the financial and health implications of the decision for local people in North-East Hampshire.
15:11
Mark Ferguson Portrait Mark Ferguson MP (Gateshead Central and Whickham, Labour)
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I refer the House to my register of members interests. It's been an interesting and enlightening debate and particularly fascinated of all the things the Liberal Democrats might have brought a motion on in the House we are talking about new hospitals because I think everyone would agree the Labour Party has invested historically in the NHS. In the last budget, back in autumn, £30.6 billion extra was allocated to capital NHS expenditure, a record amount of investment in capital expenditure and that stands in stark contrast and I know the members would not enjoy repeated references to the Coalition.

I do not think anybody particularly enjoys remembering 2010-15. The Conservatives certainly don't. I am

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hardly getting going but I am delighted to give way. I thank the honourable member for giving way. It is amazing how short giving way. It is amazing how short memories are on that side of the memories are on that side of the chamber. It was sad that there was no money and that led to decisions being made that but apparently being made that but apparently ideological but now difficult decisions being made by the Labour decisions being made by the Labour Government are mature and realistic.

It is amazing how short the memories are of those two things being very different and I think that there is different and I think that there is a lot of patience and time being given to this government for the delays to hospitals and I think the tone be more constructive and more

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patients would be given. I think the tone should be

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I think the tone should be constructive and that in the last years, no hospitals were years, no hospitals were constructed. The reality is very clear. Hospitals do not simply clear. Hospitals do not simply appear. We cannot wish them into existence. They require money and existence. They require money and time. And if one wishes they are to be more hospitals in the country, we be more hospitals in the country, we should go back in time-15 years, which would have been a fantastic which would have been a fantastic time with borrowing much cheaper than it would be today to have invested in hospitals that we all could have had in communities but sadly, as was the case with the cancellation of the Building Schools for the Future project, a lack of investment in schools, hospitals, and, as the shadow spokesperson has said, we are cleaning up the mess that has been left and that is the categorisation that was given of the early years of the 2010s and I feel it is more realistic when we talk about it today.

The shadow spokesperson also said, they accused the government of a lack of imagination but there has been none here. Magical thinking from the Liberal Democrats to believe apparently that the task force will generated billions of pounds necessary to build hospitals immediately. I am really keen to make some progress. I have repeatedly said to the Conservative Party who I do not feel are taking the advice but able repeated to Liberal Democrats, I have a huge amount of experience in Opposition and a lot of us on these benches do, more than we ever wanted to have, but if we are serious, really serious about what this country needs, you cannot just say, because We want to have hospitals now." And expect them to be delivered.

If you want to oppose the revenue- generating measures in the budget. What this motion is today, and it has been revealed in many speeches, and I'm afraid that there is opportunism, but we all want more investment in the NHS and that is what this government is delivering. My local hospital, a great point was made by my honourable friend, but he said it is not simply a matter of buildings but also people and the best maternity ward in the country is in my constituency, the Queen Elizabeth Maternity Hospital, but it is in a very old building and I want a new building and I want better resources for them and I hope that they will come in time.

They are doing a fantastic job with what they have got we must support the NHS have got we must support the NHS Torbay Hospital is very much a
15:16
Steve Darling Portrait Steve Darling MP (Torbay, Liberal Democrat)
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Torbay Hospital is very much a family affair for my family anyway. My wife has worked there for more years than she would let me admit in this chamber. And my son is now a registrar at Torbay Hospital. So I thought I knew the hospital quite well until I got elected and then the chief executive of Torbay NHS Trust opened a Pandora's box of pain and challenges that the hospital and challenges that the hospital faces.

And I was really angry at how the previous Conservative government failed to invest in the desperate needs of our NHS, both in Torbay and across the country. So it was with hope in my heart that I came to this chamber in July, hoping that over the next few months, Labour would be part of the solution. And so it is extremely sad and disappointing that Torbay feels as if it has been kicked into the long grass. We know this means that there will be a failure in serving our communities, expecting outstanding staff to deliver services in poor conditions, and Torbay also is one of the most deprived communities in the south- west so we are letting down some of the most poorest in our communities.

I just wanted to share some of the contents of this Pandora's box with the chamber if I may. When you visit the hospital, you have a viscera of hope that there is... Scaffolding around the main tower, that this is actually to stop the pieces of the tower falling on NHS workers and visitors to the hospital rather than repairs being under way. Also there are almost 700 sewage leaks across the hospital, many of these actually impacting on clinical areas, horn boards shut down and had to have deep cleaned due to the sewage leaks within Torbay hospital.

Only 6% of the hospital is of A1 standard. In terms of seeing how poor it is, that is extremely stark. There are immediate pressures that we face in Torbay. We have cuts to coronary care out of hours services that could mean that those in Torbay and South Devon, nearby constituencies could be put at risk of tissue death because it was not fast enough interventions for coronary conditions. We are looking at...

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Being in the neighbouring constituency to himself, it is my constituents in the largely rural area of South Devon that are going to be severely threatened by this to be severely threatened by this move of coronary care, disclosure of out of hours coronary care in Torbay out of hours coronary care in Torbay because somebody decided it would be a good idea to merge it with a good idea to merge it with coronary care in Exeter, meaning an increase of potentially up to 45 minutes in an ambulance for minutes in an ambulance for constituents from the south of my constituency to get hospital.

It's clearly going to put people in critical danger and I'm sure my honourable friend would agree with me that we just blew me the ICB to reconsider this poorly thought out

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decision. I strongly agree with my

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I strongly agree with my colleague from South Devon that this is a wrongheaded approach and needs is a wrongheaded approach and needs urgent review. Also in Peyton, there are threats to the long term are threats to the long term delivery of ambulance services from that town, so added delays in that town, so added delays in supporting communities. But perhaps the biggest threat is a financial threat. Down in Plymouth we've seen threat. Down in Plymouth we've seen £60 million of cuts to budgets being announced in the last few days of our services.

In Torbay the hospital came out and admitted that they are looking at £40 million of cuts to services in our NHS at Torbay. With £100 million worth of cuts across that part of South Devon, where has the money gone? Can the Minister please tell us with these pressures on our services in South Devon, where has that money gone? How can he intervene and support our services because our hospitals are crumpling in Torbay?
15:21
Chris Vince Portrait Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )
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In all sincerity can I thank the Lib Dems for bringing this debate of the House? I think it's fair to say members on the side are more than happy to discuss the NHS and the New Hospital Programme at any opportunity. I would also like to put on record again my thanks to all of the staff at Princess Alexandra Hospital in Harlow, and if you will permit, and also P tribute to the staff of the East of England ambulance service you I know obviously go back-and-forth to the hospital.

I actually visited the hospital very often commercially today and I see a workforce who work incredibly hard and difficult circumstances, and not only -- is not only a credit to the town but the NHS as a whole. It was mentioned previously, one of the 40 new hospitals which only existed in the minds of the former Prime Minister Boris Johnson. When I'm selected I found a project without any funding, without a business plan and without even a site to build the new hospital on.

The idea that it would be built by 2030 is an absolute pipedream. The current Princess Alexandra site is too small. The corridors and the wards are still due small. The A&E department is crammed, and it's literally falling apart. We've seen sewage previously leaking into the wards and the roof of the ICB falling down. Fortunately no one was injured. My speech is so riveting I've woken Jenny. Apologies for that. However, I also want to support the amendment in the name of the government and pay tribute to the work audit done by this Labour government.

Waiting times are down, and finally a realistic achievable and fully funded timetable for a new Princess Alexandra Hospital, and at least £1.5 billion worth of investment in our town. Of course in the meanwhile, Princess Alexandra Hospital will need funding and have Hospital will need funding and have met with the chief exec a number of times and will meet next week to discuss this, and I know the Minister is really preparing herself from the lobbying she will get from me in the tearoom next week.

Finally, I would like to end my speech with something I think I can have a consensus with across the

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House. I will give way. Would you agree with me that the

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Would you agree with me that the New Hospitals Programme is just one part of the jigsaw and the facilities such as the district facilities such as the district hospital and Alfred been hospital in my constituency are much underutilised resources and should underutilised resources and should be making the most of every NHS facility in bringing community services back to those places?

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As a fellow Leeds United supporter who is celebrating this week I took the intervention just to week I took the intervention just to get the opportunity to mention it. I will also add that Harlow town were also promoted on Monday. I think he makes a really valid point and actually hospital like Princess Alexandra Hospital is only part of the jigsaw. Just over the road there was the walk-in centre which was sadly closed in 2013. I think the sort of ideas need to be looked at.

That care in the community said actually less people need to go to hospital. I know in Princess Alexander hospital one of the biggest issues is the amount of people going to A&E department and coming trend avoid that and actually free up more medical staff to the other things? So agitators point. But finally to end on another consensus it seems, and you know this is an issue that I think probably members who have hospitals in their constituencies will be aware of, it's NHS nurses, doctors, staff who suffer abuse at work.

And I'd like to put on record that our NHS staff are absolute heroes and any abuse, be it physical, verbal is any abuse, be it physical, verbal is totally unacceptable and I'm sure this is something we can agree across this House.
15:25
Helen Maguire Portrait Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)
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The crisis within our NHS, the scandal of crumbling hospitals is a daily reality for my constituents in Epsom & Ewell and for all the communities served by the Epsom St Helier hospitals NHS Trust. We have allowed our healthcare infrastructure to decay to a point where it is hindering the delay of care. These are not minor cosmetic issues. Many of our hospital buildings predate the NHS itself and are riddled with damp, mould and leaking roofs. Yet we expect our dedicated doctors, nurses and support staff to deliver world-class treatment under these appalling conditions.

The consequences run far deeper than peeling paint. Patient safety is jeopardised, staff morale crushed and the basic functioning of our hospitals is compromised. Staff are stretched to limits, struggling to provide the care our communities deserve, facilities that are simply not fit for purpose. They are dealing with the consequence of years, decades of underinvestment by patching up failing infrastructure has become the norm, a shortsighted and ultimately more costly approach. The impact of the ageing estate on elective recoveries member since April 24 they've had to cancel 600 operations.

The lift breakdown and they can't fix them because they don't make the parts any more. Over the past five years they spent almost 60 million on improving the Epsom St Helier estate just to keep it operational and at St Helier, 46% of repairs identified as high risk. The human cost of this cramping infrastructure is evident. Patients forced to endure unacceptable waiting times often in undignified conditions. Anyway times at Saint Hillier trust in the West in London with over one third of patients

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waiting more than 12 hours for a bed. She mentions corridor care, and I

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She mentions corridor care, and I think that is a recurring theme in a lot of our inboxes. A constituent recently told me her husband he was recently told me her husband he was immunosuppressed because of his chemotherapy had to wait 54 hours in A&E at Saint Hillier hospital with sepsis, exposing him to more infections on top of his existing infections on top of his existing conditions. As my right honourable friend agree with me without a friend agree with me without a proper rescue package, crumbling hospitals like St Helier, immunosuppressed patients will continue to be put at unnecessary risk?

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This is just one amongst a catalogue of incidents we are catalogue of incidents we are hearing on a regular basis. Because as I was mentioning commits not only as I was mentioning commits not only among lantern but 1/3 of patients waiting more than 12 hours for a bed and this past winter, over 2,000 and this past winter, over 2,000 patients waited over half a day just patients waited over half a day just to be seen. These delays not only cause distress and anxiety but could also have serious and long-term consequences for patient outcomes.

consequences for patient outcomes. The Epsom and Saint Hillier University trust NHS Trust has worked diligently developing detailed plans for a new emergent specialist emergency care hospital alongside the modernisation of Epsom St Helier hospitals. The state-of- the-art facility will be a beacon of hope improving outcomes for our sickest patients and consolidating acute services in a way that strengthens staffing and keeps care local, but this promise has been left to wither was that the Health Secretary's lesson just my latest announcement pushes the new care hospital to 2032 at the earliest, adding to decades of false promises that have timed again let my constituents down.

And that's why this Friday I will be abseiling the 125 feet down St Helier Hospital to raise funds for the Epsom and St Helier hospice charities, China spotlight on the urgent need for investment in our hospitals. The funds raised will provide extra support our hospitals over and above what the NHS can currently deliver. But charity can only fill so many gaps. They cannot substitute for the government action our hospitals disbelieve require. The government should reverse this delay to the New Hospital Programme and urgently deliver the new hospitals patients have long been promised.

It must prioritise the construction of the specialist emergency care hospital and fund the long overdue repairs to St Helier. My constituents deserve St Helier. My constituents deserve nothing less than modern, safe, high quality healthcare.
15:29
Julie Minns Portrait Ms Julie Minns MP (Carlisle, Labour)
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As I begin I should declare an interest, namely my daughter is an NHS nurse, and I want her, her colleagues and the patients they care for to have buildings that are safe, secure, and suitable for their needs. Nowhere is it more apparent our NHS's crumbling than our our NHS's crumbling than our hospitals. A man recently spent months in the hospital, and I'm sure it's not alone in being held together by the professionalism and care of its staff, rather than by the fabric of the building itself.

Lord Darzi's report paints a stark picture of the crumbling buildings and our health service, and the primary care estate where 20% of the buildings predate the founding of the health service. Now, I'm very much an advocate for preserving historic buildings, but I draw a line when it comes to hospitals that That's why we need an NHS fit for the future, and that's why that NHS fit for the future starts with buildings that are fit for its staff and the patients they care for.

Crumbling old buildings, indeed modern buildings with inadequate staff facilities, lead to low morale and low productivity. That's why repairing and rebuilding and improving our healthcare estate are essential to this governance plan for change and central to this governance health mission. And we are delivering that plan. We've already heard today 13.6 billion in healthcare capital spending, over 4 billion in operational capital, and over a billion to tackle critical NHS maintenance. Compare that with the record of the last government.

Underinvestment in the estate, record low levels of public satisfaction in the NHS, record high waiting lists, doctors strikes allowed to drag on and on and on and on, and a New Hospital Programme years behind schedule with no money beyond March 2025. This government is committed to rebuilding our NHS, and it's happening on the ground now in my constituency. Funding for a new £12 million urgent treatment centre, approved in December and on centre, approved in December and on track to be opened by the end of this year.

That's the change Carlisle needs, that's the change Carlisle needs, that's the change our country needs, and that's the change our government is delivering.
15:32
James Wild Portrait James Wild MP (North West Norfolk, Conservative)
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My local hospital, the Queen Elizabeth in Kings Lynn, is one of the seven RAAC hospitals. It's had the dubious honour of being the most prompt hospital in the country, and today there is still a lot of support holding up the roof to keep it safe, a situation staff and patients shouldn't have to put up with. Initially it wasn't part of the New Hospitals Programme, by campaigning in Parliament with strong local support it was added to the scheme as a priority scheme by the last Conservative government.

Part of a fully funded scheme being funded in the same way this program is free future spending reviews. After the election, the government's review of the New Hospitals Programme cast doubt on our new hospital. I'm very glad that after pressure RAAC schemes were removed from that review and restored as a priority, as they should be. That's warmly welcomed by patients, staff and my constituents. The clock is ticking, and the government's decision to delay the timetable for a new hospital opening from 2030 to 2032 / 2033 are unwelcome and unnecessary.

It means spending money propping up the roof, literally wasting millions of pounds that could be spent getting on with that scheme. The plans have an experienced team in place, the Health Secretary said if we could go faster than the 27/28 start date for constructive -- Construction, we will. I realised I could be issues with approvals, but the Health Secretary said to me in his place that he would use that process to take an axe to that multilayered approvals process.

I'm not sure he has swung it yet, but I hope you does because the savings in business cases,, costs and time, are considerable. There's been much talk across the house on the need for action. I was at my hospital last week with the chief executive, I asked if the business case for the multi-storey car park is approved as rapidly as possible so work can start next year at low at the latest. That is to free up the latest.

That is to free up the existing car park. With the funding available it is very welcome, and grateful to the Minister for that. This will be a major investment into This will be a major investment into my constituency. So let's get on with the new staff, patients and with the new staff, patients and staff and that they deserve.
15:35
Sean Woodcock Portrait Sean Woodcock MP (Banbury, Labour)
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For years my constituency in Banbury have lived with the consequences of a health system that has frankly been allowed to follow part bit by bit, service by service. We have mental-health services especially for children and adolescents, severely under resourced. Families waiting far too long for help, even in the most serious of cases. Our maternity unit in Banbury, downgraded under the Conservatives, now mean that complex births have to travel to Oxford or Warwick with all the risk that brings.

Especially with delays caused by our inadequate transport infrastructure. There is no overnight surgery or daycare surgery available locally, and patients forth through cracks because of poorly coordinated services between Oxfordshire, Warwickshire and Northamptonshire. Under the Conservatives and with the support of the Liberal Democrats in coalition, money was diverted away from health services into a disastrous and unnecessary top-down reorganisation of our National Health Service. The result is what we are seeing now. Fragmented care, overstretch services, and communities being left behind.

My constituents are not going to be pleased by the government making promises that they cannot keep, and where they have no realistic plan or

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funds for delivering them. Thank you for giving way.

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Thank you for giving way. Multiple members on the government Multiple members on the government benches have made that point, but surely they see that promising to build a hospital in a decades time when they may not be in power is a meaningless promise.

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meaningless promise. I would suggest that our decade

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I would suggest that our decade of national renewal will get delivered, and that those hospitals we have promised will be delivered. we have promised will be delivered. I am more than confident of that. Because things are changing, the New Hospitals Programme has been put back on a firm footing with every project now backed by real funding, and a realistic plan equally of importance. Crucially, this government is not stopping there. The 10 year plan is improving how the whole system works for patients.

That means better coordination between GPs, hospital mental health services and social care. It means making sure that wherever you live, even on the border between counties and issue very close to people in my constituency, you don't get passed from one part of the system to another without support. It also means dealing more locally. More care available close to home, so fewer people have to travel longer distances just to get basic treatment. It means earlier intervention so problems are picked up before they become emergencies.

And we've already seen progress. over 3 million extra appointments, 26 million health mental-health crisis centres to alleviate the pressures on NHS services, and £2 billion spent on technology and digital to increase productivity and ensure patients are seen faster. We are starting to turn things around, and doing so in a way that puts patients first without making on deliverable unrealistic promises that damaged trust in politics and in the democratic system. For too long, people in Banbury have been left wondering if there NHS would be there when they need it.

After 14 years they can see that help is finally on the way with this Labour finally on the way with this Labour government. Things are changing practically, and with purpose. practically, and with purpose.
15:39
Josh Babarinde Portrait Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)
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I start by declaring an interest that will prejudice me in this debate. I was born in Eastbourne District General Hospital, I have said farewell to cherished folks there, and I have been brought back from the brink in the DG H myself. While I'm here I would like to express huge thanks to the incredible staff in the hospital who treated Mia Mottley back into action last year. But for years our DG H services have been eroded with core services like consultant led maternity mood to the conquest Hospital in Hastings, an unacceptable 20 miles away.

I will keep fighting for the return of consultant led maternity services at DG H, just as I fought alongside local campaigners to open the midwifery units after months of closure. I fight standing on the shoulders of local campaigning giants for our NHS, like Liz Walker, who I have known since I was seven and I'm proud to welcome to the Gallery today. Alongside Rose button. Beyond services, our DG H services are crying out for help. The bosses have said "The age and standard of current hospital buildings presents challenges for the consistent delivery of safe, effective, responsive and efficient care".

Our trust backlog maintenance bill stands at £416 million, that's one of the largest in the country. Which is why we were included in the New Hospital Programme in the first place. Our town was therefore appalled that the Conservatives put our hospital to the back of the queue when they were in office, and people from Eastbourne are further outraged that this government is keeping us there in wave four. Having been born in that hospital 31 years ago, I will be nearly 50 by the time it is set to be completed as it currently stands.

My key ask in light of the mismatch between the size of our maintenance backlog and our place in the queue, will the government review our wave four position in the program as it currently stands? And if she will not do such a thing, then what extra support will the government provide to address our growing half £1 billion maintenance bill across the trust. Eastbourne needs answers, and deserves action. And Eastbourne, deserves action. And Eastbourne, together with campaigners like Liz, will be listening very closely to her answers.
15:42
Matt Turmaine Portrait Matt Turmaine MP (Watford, Labour)
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I draw attention to my declaration of interests. I welcome this opposition day debate on hospitals and the state of the NHS, which is on its knees after 14 years of mismanagement by the previous government. But I find myself blinking in the dappled light of a new reality. To read the motion as drafted, one can be forgiven for thinking that unchallenged Tory government over the last 14 years alone is responsible for the chaos that we witness.

But pinching myself to wake from the dreams, I recall that the Liberal Democrats were in part of that government for five long years. They may want to forget about it, but we remember. We remember the rose garden where the blue Tories and the yellow Tories harmoniously hand-in-hand drew up their plans to devastate our health and social care public services, through the austerity program. We remember the bedroom tax, voted for multiple times by the Liberal Democrats, we remember the Lansley reforms, Liberal Democrat spokespeople squirming on television interviews as they tried to justify the chaos into which they were about to plunge the NHS.

Previously we had the highest satisfaction levels and lowest waiting times under a Labour government, and look what we inherited in July of last year. An unmitigated disaster. The Tory LibDem coalition tore up the last Labour government's plans for a new hospital in my constituency of Watford, as part of the austerity program. The staff at that hospital do a remarkable job and I would like to put on record my gratitude to them, even when wandering around dressed as a giant bunny rabbit on Sunday of this week.

The Tories and Liberal Democrats are responsible for the 14 year delay in getting a new hospital in Watford, and nobody else. If they hadn't done what they did we would have a new hospital by now. But we do not. Not a brick has been laid. They should hang their heads in shame at this total betrayal of Watford residents. The New Hospitals Programme was funded March of this year not after March of this year, the hospitals existed only in the imagination of Boris Johnson.

I welcome this motion recognising the devastating state of
15:45
Ben Obese-Jecty Portrait Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)
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the NHS, but let's be acutely aware that the responsibility lies with that the responsibility lies with the Liberal Democrats bringing this motion, as well as with the Conservatives in the previous government. It's all very well to government. It's all very well to want a hospital to magic it out of thin air, but it will be this Labour thin air, but it will be this Labour government that finances and

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government that finances and I would like to focus specifically on hinge but hospital and highlight some key issues that will impact the delivery of the new hospital in Huntingdon. During the general election campaign I fought for the resources and I will continue to push this Labour government to push through the programming committee to deliver. In May 2023 the then Health Secretary announced hinge work was part of the governance New Hospital Programme. Since that time I have been concerned that this government is Haste particularly around the traffic issues and further commitments to update the road network.

This has caused concerns across my constituency of Huntingdon. Though I welcome it is rightly wave one we need clarity from this government, we are aware of the RAAC issues but they have not given a detailed timeline of when the hospital will be built. Vague start date but no completion date. In September 2024 the Minister for secondary care, in answer to me, confirmed the detailed infrastructure plan estimated the remaining life of the RAAC plan extended approximately two 2030, even after the failsafe steelwork.

She said this summer the government will publish a report on the operational impacts of this hospital beyond the -- and the lack of clarity around the start date or completion date, what assurance candour Minister give my constituents when find themselves in a condemned hospital building after 2030, the DHSC simply owning the risk they will collapse. We need plans, actions, focus, to make sure any changes are fit for purpose with no more delays. In short, the following issues must be addressed in order for the hospital to be That a hospital 2.0 is delivered, and a capital envelope of at least £900 million is allocated.

And it is clear that the 2030 target might be unreachable but mobilisation by spring 2026 is one that is realistic and when I will push the government and stakeholders to work towards. Further work between Hinchinbrook Further work between Hinchinbrook and the HP is then approved as soon as possible to compete the new hospital is close to 2030 as possible. We also need to see grid
15:48
Lisa Smart Portrait Lisa Smart MP (Hazel Grove, Liberal Democrat)
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access to this is fit for purpose as the current grid access is not the current grid access is not sufficient. It is clearly not appropriate for it to take a year to do this. Issues around a vital new do this. Issues around a vital new access road, and can Cambridge Constabulary and National Highways. Constabulary and National Highways. The government must get round the table with public bodies. To conclude I want to reaffirm I will conclude I want to reaffirm I will do all I can to work with the government, the NHS and others to make sure my constituent get the new

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make sure my constituent get the new hospital is a desperate need. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. The very first thing I did I came to this place was right to the sexual State for Health and Social Care along with my constituency neighbour the honourable member for Cheal about the state of the hospital. It is consistently the biggest issue raised with me by patients and staff, many of whom are my constituents. There are few ways to see more Claire Emslie how the last government let down my constituent than the state of the buildings in the hospital.

A number of buildings that had to be closed because they were deemed unsafe. This places more pressure on staff and on services. The repairs backlog was reported in the press to exceed £130 million. With millions needed to eradicate the most high-risk needs. This sounds abstract, this amount of money is difficult to get your head around. What does it mean to staff and patients? My constituents might be having experienced major health issues like cardiac arrests and being forced to wait in overcrowded areas without seating because there isn't the space available.

It means hospital corridors flooding, and medics having to wade through the water to get their patients. On occasion it means a constituent writing to me on what should have been the utter delight of having a baby delivered safely into the world. But 30 minutes before the baby arrived, light fitting fell down in the delivery suite in the middle of active labour. The hospital sees around half a million patients each year. When I asked my constituents about their experiences, many tummy they are worried about the buildings but so many of them praise the phenomenal staff.

I will share a few of those. Chris said staff could not have been kinder and more efficient. Allen said all the staff from top to bottom were brilliant. Brenda said the staff remains dedicated despite the state of the building. Amanda talked about how, that wonderful doctors and without them her son would not hear. He said the staff were run ragged were amazing because the previous government failed to provide the funding needed. And despite the huge repairs bill, the hospital was left out of the New Hospitals Programme.

The legacy of that decision and of the failed Conservative government hangs over my constituents. They deserve better. The government broke their promise to my constituents and I will continue to work with this and any future government to get Stepping Hill what it needs. In part
15:51
Caroline Voaden Portrait Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)
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that involves a new site at Stockport town centre. I'm working Stockport town centre. I'm working closely with that stop at council and the trust to push for that. It could act as a diagnostic centre or could act as a diagnostic centre or outpatient centre part of the strong long-term solution to ensure patient needs are met and my constituents needs are met and my constituents get what they need. The health of our nation is directly linked to the our nation is directly linked to the wealth of our nation.

My constituents, whether patients or staff, looking for the government to have their back, fund the repairs

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have their back, fund the repairs that Stepping Hill deliver the new additional site in the town centre. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I'm going to change the tone of the debate is bit from the honourable member for Watford and welcome the Minister's comments about a strategy for hospital building that is based in reality and not on a fantasy program that had no funding behind it whatsoever. It is also good to hear that capital funding will be ring fenced. When Labour came into office they promised to end sticking plaster politics.

However this seems to be exactly what they are offering to Torbay Hospital, a small sticking plaster to hold together a gaping wound. Torbay hospital serves a critical role for my largely rural constituency of South Devon. It faces immense pressure everything all day. Nearly all of the hospital state is currently unfit for purpose. Yet, under the government's timeline, construction of a rebuild is not due to begin until 2032. That means seven more years of staff working in outdated inadequate conditions. Patients receiving care in a facility that no longer meets the basic standards expected of a modern health service.

The case for urgent and sustained investment could not be clearer. The total cost of eradicating the maintenance backlog at Torbay Hospital now stands at £53.6 million, small beer compared to some of our colleagues. Of that, £4.6 million is needed to address high risk issues. The kind that, in the own terms of the NHS, pose a direct threat to the safety of patients or the day-to-day running of the hospital. Nearly 1 pound in every £10 is needed to fix repairs that is considered an urgent problem to health and safety.

It is simply unacceptable in any modern healthcare system. Last year the Ian nose and throat department was forced to cancel a full week of outpatient care after a sewage leak. The main tower of hospital is literally being held together by scaffolding that costs £1 million each week. Operating theatres lack adequate temperature control and the pathology department, which plays a critical role in cancer diagnosis another urgent care, is operating out of a rotting portacabin with holes in the walls. Temporary accommodation that has been in place for over 40 years.

This hospital is operating at a 98% capacity, far above the safe levels. It is running at full tilt every day under conditions that make effective safe care more and more difficult to provide. But I have to give a huge shout out incredible stuff at Torbay Hospital keep the place going. It is not sustainable and nor should it be acceptable. The current government's
15:54
15:54
Clive Jones Portrait Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)
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find a way to finance critical repairs. Patients and staff in Torbay and across the country deserve better than another decade

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of waiting. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I am very proud to declare my interest as a governor of the Royal Berkshire Hospital. It is an Berkshire Hospital. It is an incredibly important place for me, I have been treated there many times, have been treated there many times, and friends and family work there. And my constituents while the dedication of its hard-working dedication of its hard-working staff. The way that this important community asset has been treated by the previous Conservative government is a scandal.

They have left a record of broken promises in the building that in many places literally crumbling. We look at the conservative legacy, in 2023, before the 2024 general election, introduced a seven year delay to the construction of the new hospital. A seven year delay that was never funded in the first place. The dithering and delays of the Conservatives have resulted in a £7 million being wasted at the Royal box hospital on surveys and investigation of element of hospital program that was never going to go anywhere, and the Conservatives knew this all the time.

Their behaviour over the last five years has been shameful, and they have deceived my constituents. The honourable member for Henley and Thame has highlighted many of the issues at the Royal box hospital, so I won't repeat them. There is a maintenance backlog of £102 million, and staff are recently told me of an additional £300 million that is needed for maintenance. Would the Minister confirm that a proper maintenance program will be done for the next 20 years? I have to thank the Minister for her commitment that when the Royal box hospital trust requires funding to purchase land for the new site, the departments will provide that funding.

I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that that situation has not changed. And situation has not changed. And finally, I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that the Minister could confirm that the planned cuts and savings for the planned cuts and savings for the trust to balance their budget will not impact their ability to deliver vital maintenance of the hospital vital maintenance of the hospital site. Thank you.
15:56
Danny Chambers Portrait Dr Danny Chambers MP (Winchester, Liberal Democrat)
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We come to the Front Benches for windups. I called the Lib Dems. It seems as though members on both sides of the house have been experiencing problems in the hospitals that they are serving. The years of underinvestment have ended up in many hospitals having leaking rooms. My friend from Torbay was talking about sewage in clinical areas. It seems outrageous that we are discussing sewage in our hospitals right now. My friend from Oxford and Abington West talked about incubators having to be removed because the ceiling was at risk of collapsing.

It is absolutely crazy to have operating theatres and crazy to have operating theatres and hospital rooms that are not being used not for the lack of staff but because they are not safe enough to be working in. Like many of my colleagues, I meet regularly with hospital leaders and managers in my local hospital in Winchester. And discuss issues that they are facing. Despite the heroic efforts of the staff at the Royal County Hampshire Hospital, they are facing similar issues that have been brought up time and time again this afternoon.

We also have leaking roofs in treatment areas. We have old and outdated lifts that fail causing issues in transporting patients from wards to the operating theatre. We have no backup power generators, and that risks patient safety during

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power cuts. I am very grateful to my honourable Friend for doing way. honourable Friend for doing way. Would he agree that on the subject Would he agree that on the subject of faulty buildings and rooms, the Musgrove Park hospital, the fact that staff are thinking from a 30 heat is there is not proper cooling, while mums are trying to give birth on the same ward, totally unacceptable. And we need interim unacceptable. And we need interim funding if Musgrove Hospital, which as mentioned earlier today, will survive until 2033, when the

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promised funding is meant to come? It is totally unacceptable not just for patient safety but also for just for patient safety but also for health and safety at work. The staff health is being put at risk as well. health is being put at risk as well. These are not all minor inconveniences. They are daily threats to patient care. And they cost us dearly. So why aren't we cost us dearly. So why aren't we fixing them? The failure by the last government is not an excuse for government is not an excuse for continued delay.

And the cost of inaction is higher which is inaction is higher which is nonsensical. The longer we wait, the more it will cost the taxpayer. A lot has been said about trust in politics. We won't forget what happened in our area of Hampshire, when Conservative MPs stood on manifestoes of delivering a new hospital that they never had any funding for. There was no funding secured, no shovel ready plan, and they repeatedly campaigned on this anyway, hoping voters would not find out until it was too late.

Other members have discussed that GP surgeries are particularly neglected. Funding was allocated in the Budget for just 200 additional upgrades, that is out of 6000 GP surgeries. And with the government's jobs tax hitting GPs, it is becoming harder for those practices to self fund improvements. I was pleased to see the member for Stroud bring up the importance of primary care and mental health because, I know we have spotty agreement on this, but investing in primary care, although there is a debate about hospitals and hospital infrastructure, keeping people healthy the community, whether it is primary care, mental health, public health, that is much more cost-effective for the taxpayer as well as being better for patients.

We really welcome the warm words on social care from the Minister. We had a social care roundtable just yesterday when we were discussing that for every 1 pound spent on social care, it saves the NHS 3 pounds. So we urge we have these cross-party talks as soon as possible because every year we delay with a plan for social care it is costing us a huge amount more money what people are languishing in hospitals with delayed discharge. We have to end this vicious cycle of false economies and forgings been spent on papering over the cracks.

The total repair backlog is could reach an estimated £5.7 billion by the time construction starts. Is the government really of the view that keeping these hospitals on a life- support is a good use of taxpayers money? Repairing and replacing from the NHS buildings is not just about treating more patients, it is about reviving and boosting our economy. Here is the truth, we won't grow our economy unless we reinvest in the services that support it. So let's change course, as we urge the government to reverse that long delays in the New Hospital Programme because many are not going to be open until the 2040s, and those hospitals have to be kept functioning until then.

And set out a 10 year investment plan to fix hospitals and GP surgeries. Urgently release funds that have already been committed to start construction straight away. And publish a plan to recruit and retain a skilled workforce to carry out this workforce to carry out this This is what investing to save looks like, improving care, lowering costs and building a stronger economy. Instead they chose to cut investment, that led to higher costs. Our plan is to increase investment now so we can lower costs in the future.

We urge this
16:02
Karin Smyth Portrait Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)
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government not to simply patch over the damage to our NHS, but as the liberal politician William Beveridge who was a visionary behind the who was a visionary behind the formation of the NHS said, a formation of the NHS said, a revolutionary moment is a time for revolution is not for patching. So revolution is not for patching. So let's be bold, let's invest now, it will be better for the taxpayer, better for patients, and it will

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boost our economy. It really is a pleasure to close this debate on behalf of the government. I think of the 33 contributions from members across this house nowhere is it more apparent that the NHS is broken down in our grubby hospitals. Over 14 years the NHS has been starved of capital and the budget was repeatedly plundered to plug holes in day-to-day spending. The investigation into the NHS in England made clear we have crumbling buildings, mental health patients being accommodated in Victorian era cells, infested with vermin, sharing showers and parts of the NHS operating in decrepit Portakabins.

27% of primary care predates the formation of the NHS. We agree on the disgrace of the backlog of care, the decimation of capital budgets, and the fantasy of the New Hospital Programme. Where we disagree is on the cause and solution. It's the party opposite as we've heard today are completely silent on the part are completely silent on the part they played in the coalition government. The party opposite were enthusiastic partners in the decision to impose austerity, our NHS was starved of funding on their watch.

The practice of raiding capital budgets to keep things afloat started in 2014, on their watch. The disastrous top-down NHS reorganisation that wasted billions and contributed to record high waiting lists happened on their watch. As to the solution, the party opposite our playing the same cynical game we saw from the other party of opposition. Dangling the prospect of a new hospital while unable to explain where the funding is coming from or explain how the construction industry could deliver within this timeframe.

Opportunism indeed, as said by my friend from Gateshead Central. We all remember the rose garden. They opposed the autumn 2024 budget which delivered record investment in our NHS, in sharp contrast this government are prepared to take the decisions needed to back up our promises with funding needed to deliver, and we are determined to rebuild trust in politics by only promising what we can deliver. I have met many honourable members in person, I have heard them in the chamber today, and I know others not here today will want to contribute.

Let me say plainly, I agree with everyone's anger. I share their anger. Because when I tore hospitals up and down the country, as I did recently in Doncaster and Oxfordshire where I visited the hospital, I often see agreement and infrastructure from 20 years ago when I was working for the NHS in Bristol. Seeing these physical reminders of the past fills me with a mixture of pride and shame. Pride, because I was part of a generation of leaders that delivered hospitals fit for patients, the biggest hospital program in NHS history delivered under the last Labour government, and I feel shame because our legacy was squandered and patients paid the price.

We understand the legacy. Lord Darzi was very clear, the task is to take action. That is why the Chancellor took the necessary decisions in her budget to meet this challenge, why we have put the program on a firm financial footing. As my friend said earlier, we are not just writing this wrong, we are taking pressure off hospitals, shipping pressure from hospitals to community, recruiting more GPs to take the pressure off ANA, and harnessing AI for people who depend on care to stay at home.

A point on care to stay at home. A point well made by several members. I wish my friend from Korda Valley good Lokonga marathon this weekend. This will be an immense challenge, we are up for the fight. I will try to make sure to get through the points, because I could not agree more with those who made the point that we have to break out of the vicious cycle of the false economy. This government was elected on a manifesto to end sticking plaster politics.

When we came into government we were saddled with a bill of nearly £14 billion in backlog maintenance. The Chancellor has given us funding this year to back NHS systems with over 4 billion operational capital, and life-saving cash injection of £170 million were targeted estate safety fundings, a vital first step towards fixing our crumbling estate. Not only crucial for patients, but staff morale as my friend from Carlisle said. Hundred £44 million to tackle crumbling concrete, keeping patients and their families say. We are opening new mental health facilities, state-of- the-art provision to give the best possible care and outcomes.

Furthermore, I assure colleagues that unlike the previous government we will never raid capital budgets to plug day-to-day spending, the Treasury have now updated fiscal rules to make us impossible. -- Make this impossible. My friend said big promises with no plans got us into this mess, the false hope and waste of the past, echoed by my friend from Banbury who reiterated the point about trust, shared by the member opposite from South Tavern. I have heard colleagues Cole and the government to reverse the course and call for a timeline that is undeliverable, something recognised by the audit office report.

They said some hospitals in 2020 now face such delays and will not be completed by 2030, meaning implications for patients and clinicians. Delivery of these hospitals only existed as a figment of Boris Johnson's imagination. This government is doing the hard work of putting it back on track. The latest review rated NHP as Amber, this reflects the measures we took to put the program on a firm footing as my friend the honourable member for Harlow rightly said.

Some colleagues have asked us to publish the individual scores following the outcome review, can I take issue with the use of the word shading. The Secretary of State and the Department are clear that we will continue to operate with her committee, to be clear as part of our analysis schemes were put into upper, middle and lower thirds to align with the funding output. There was no final individual score for each scheme. There is no, with regards to wave two, there is no formal delineation between schemes within phase 2.

Can I briefly say to my friend the member for Mitcham, it was a pleasure to meet councillors from her constituency and understand the passion with which they feel the loss of resources from their constituency. That is something that has been echoed over many low income areas, we have to reverse that loss of resources as we go forward with our 10 year plan. We are taking a systematic approach to building the next generation of hospitals, known as hospitals 2.0. Allowing trusts to benefit from the scale and ensure our staff are supported with technology and decent working environments.

It contributes to our growth mission, putting the money in people's pockets and supporting supply chains. We do about by that hospital 2.0 scheme. It is a systematic approach that will save taxpayer money while driving innovation and laying the foundations of a new relationship between government and industry. And disappointed at his official LibDem policy to oppose that approach. I know the clock is against me but I want to end by saying I completely understand why colleagues are so concerned about the plans when previous governments have so badly let them and their constituents down.

I also hear the point made by the honourable member's Southend about Northern Ireland, it is devolved, they can look alternative means, but the Department will continue to work with devolved administrations across all issues. Staff and patients deserve better, so I want to offer them some reassurance about our records since July. We promise to sit down with resident doctors and end the damaging strike action. Promise made, promise kept. In October we said we would recruit more GPs by April, and we recruit more than we said.

Promise made, promise kept. We smashed targets early. Last month over 80% of patients in England had been ruled out or diagnosed within 28 days, waiting list have now been consistently falling. On this critical issue we have gripped it since July since day one of the review. I have met with all colleagues the day after the announcement in January and I've had individual meetings, I will keep my promises to commit to visit when the diary allows. I'm looking forward to North Devon, and also visiting Hillingdon where I grew up, and I'd already committed to visiting Basingstoke.

We will progress at pace on RAAC and wave one, I'm committed to holding all meetings with wave two and three MPs in coming months to keep colleagues abreast with updates and allow them to ask questions directly off the team. That's how I will work with colleagues across the house to ensure this program happens. Finally, the honourable Lady from the party opposite talked about her experience with the PFI scheme she worked in and the nonsense she had to deal with. The government could have changed at any point.

My experience with the PFI scheme in Bristol is waking up about a year ago after I had my melanoma removed, I woke up in her almost brand-new hospital with fantastic facilities in an individual award. Maybe was the drugs that made me a little bleary eyed, but I thought how proud I was to be part of the development team as part of the board, in bringing forward a fantastic hospital for North Bristol that hospital for North Bristol that serves patients so well that would never have happened under another administration.

We rebuilt the administration. We rebuilt the hospitals under the last Labour government, I am proud of that record, we did it before and we will do it again. That's what a Labour government does.
16:13
None Portrait Division
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The question is that the original words stand part of the question.. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The The question The question is The question is as The question is as on The question is as on the The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The Tellers for the ayes, Charlie Maynard and Will Forster. Tellers for the noes,

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Lock Lock the Lock the doors.

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If If the If the Frontbench If the Frontbench can If the Frontbench can resume their seats. Order. Order.

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their seats. Order. Order. The ayes to the right 77. The noes to the left 307.

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noes to the left 307. The ayes to the right 77. The noes to the left 307. The noes have noes to the left 307. The noes have it. The noes have it. Unlock. The question is that the proposed words be added, as many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The question is the main motion as amended, as many are of that opinion say, "Aye".

And of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We move over onto the next debate. I will give the Front Benches very quickly. I the Front Benches very quickly. I see that there is... The next see that there is... The next business, I can see that there is a business, I can see that there is a point of order. Colleagues should be in their seats as a we take the in their seats as a we take the point of order if they have not already left the chamber.
16:28
16:28
16:29
Tim Farron Portrait Tim Farron MP (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. It is an honour to have this opportunity. For me to serve the people of my constituency means also defending the natural beauty, its purity, its importance to our national heritage, to our farming industry, to our tourism and hospitality colony. Our proposal today aims to highlight the scale of the pollution and practical solutions that will make the difference. The government's recent water act was a step in the right direction of the failures of the Conservative government to take meaningful action.

Yet the act was also a missed opportunity for the radical transformation of regulation and of ownership that is essential if we are going to clean up our waterways and clean-up the water industry as a whole. Sir Jon Cunliffe's review gives us the hope of a more ambitious second bill might be coming. There's no guarantee of that. Our job is the constructive opposition in this place to hold the government to account and urge them to make big changes that Britain voted for last That need for radical action was made more clear recently when the figures pursue which spills for 2024 was released.

Those figures were horrific. A 106% increase in the duration of spills in our lakes, rivers and seas in just two short

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years. I will happily give way. Thank you. Over Easter in Torbay

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Thank you. Over Easter in Torbay we have five sewage spills, we have five sewage spills, according to the Surfers Against Sewage app. With my right honourable friend agree with me that it is extremely disappointing to say the extremely disappointing to say the least that rather than just getting your costume and towel to go swimming, in your favourite swimming spot, we now also have to check the

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spot, we now also have to check the sewage leak out. It's outrageous. I agree with him, he makes a really good point about his own communities. Absolutely that is the point of what we are trying to address today, to bring practical solutions to prevent this outrage. At 106% increase in just two years of the duration of sewage spills has been explained away on the record by water industry bosses as being a consequence of climate change, because it brings more than it used to.

Yes, that's absolutely true. But it does not rain 106% more in 2024 than in 2022, not even in the Lake District. The reality is that the failure of water companies to invest in their infrastructure and the failure of Ofwat to force them to do so means the scandal is set to continue, despite the governments

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new legislation. There were 754 spills in my constituency of mid Sussex last year constituency of mid Sussex last year alone. We don't want to see these numbers anywhere, but in a constituency that does not have a constituency that does not have a major waterway it is absurdly high. As my honourable friend agree with As my honourable friend agree with me that if we want to start genuinely holding water companies to

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account a great place to start would be replacing Ofwat. She anticipates where and going

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She anticipates where and going next, that takes some doing to have those figures in a constituency lacking in water ways. So I do confess it is not just because my right honourable friend asked me to do this job, I would volunteer for all this kind of stuff because for me and my communities water is seriously personal. We are home to much of the English Lake District, Windermere, Rydal water and many more, with some of the most ecologically significant rivers in ecologically significant rivers in the UK.

Yet the data for 2024 shows we are third hardest-hit constituency in England when it comes to duration of sewage spills. 55,000+ hours of spills, 5,500 individual incidents. The catchment of the River Eden, many other beautiful villages saw over 7,000 hours of spills on 705 occasions. River Kent catchment saw 500 hours. Windermere alone had 38 spills over 128 hours, at that point I'm happy to let the honourable gentleman intervene.

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I thank him for giving way. He is making a powerful speech, I look forward to having the opportunity to forward to having the opportunity to visit his constituency because it sounds beautiful. Would he agree sounds beautiful. Would he agree it's disgraceful that whilst this sewage is being leaked the water companies are still paying

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themselves exorbitant bonuses. Makes a good point and he will be enormously welcome to visit the enormously welcome to visit the Lakes and the Dales. Yes, that is a key point that I will seek to key point that I will seek to address, not only the injustice of people being paid huge bonuses for failure at the top of these organisations, that's money leaving the system that could be invested and put some of this right. I spoke with colleagues across this house from every party, from every corner of the UK.

They will have seen the data for their communities and should rightly be outraged, as I'm

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sure my honourable friend is. He talks correctly about a

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He talks correctly about a beautiful part of England. I also represent a beautiful part of the represent a beautiful part of the world. He is an unbelievable fact for you, in 2023 there were no less than 1439 sewage spills in the than 1439 sewage spills in the Highlands. What a disgrace for the governing party of Scotland.

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governing party of Scotland. Makes an important observation

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Makes an important observation from a constituency vastly well. My constituency is the second largest in England, it is bijou and compact compared to my honourable friend's. He makes a very good point about the administration in Scotland. As already alluded to by the honourable gentleman on the other side a moment ago, sewage spills went the only things to increase. So did the money leaking out of the system. Water company bosses received a total combined pay last year of £20 million more.

The water companies responsible for these failures paid out £1.2 billion in dividends. Surfers Against Sewage have led the way for many years before many others weighed in talking about the

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issue... Whilst talking about dividends,

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Whilst talking about dividends, does he agree with me it is completely wrong that tens of millions if not hundreds of millions millions if not hundreds of millions also leak out on high interest on internal shareholder loans of those

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who own the water companies. I'm going to talk later a little about why privatisation of the water industry was such a colossal mistake. That is one of the predictable consequences, he makes a predictable consequences, he makes a very good point. Going back to what surfers against sewage have been saying, their research recently covering all the water companies, I'm bound to pick out United Utilities as an example, United Utilities paid out £320 million last year to investors, while their construct -- customers, my constituents, will pay 32% more in bills.

11% of every one of my constituents water bills is going to service that company's debts. Debts that were in part racked up by borrowing money to give huge paydays

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to their investors. In south Devon last year we had an astonishing 49,904 hours of sewage leaks. Which is 5.69 years of sewage leaks. Which is 5.69 years of sewage pouring into the glorious sewage pouring into the glorious Dart and Avon around the sea in Devon. Meanwhile constituents are writing to me with bills that have writing to me with bills that have gone up by as much as 50%. Would he agree that it's an outrage that privatised water companies are able privatised water companies are able to carry on increasing bills and dividends to shareholders, paying multi-million pound salaries to CEOs, while this obscenity of sewage continues to pour into our rivers,

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seas and lakes. She represents an utterly beautiful part of the country and beautiful part of the country and she fights for it and probably -- admirably. She makes an important point. I mentioned 11% of the bills point. I mentioned 11% of the bills paid by my constituents in the North West of England goes to service the West of England goes to service the debt of United Utilities. For many other colleagues on both sides of the house there local water the house there local water companies will be charging up to 30% of the bill cost just to pay off or of the bill cost just to pay off or not even pay off, just to service the debt of that company.

This sewage scandal is an environmental scandal, but also a financial scandal, an affront to justice and fairness as well as to our ecology. fairness as well as to our ecology.

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It's also a health scandal. Water companies, by allowing sewage to seek into our coast and rivers, seek into our coast and rivers, those people who enjoy that environment for swimming et cetera, many of them fall ill and lose days many of them fall ill and lose days of work. So really, as well as the cost to the taxpayer in terms of cost to the taxpayer in terms of cleaning up the environment, they should also be making a contribution should also be making a contribution to the Exchequer to cover six pay and the cost to the NHS.



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and the cost to the NHS. He makes a really important point on behalf of his coastal and island communities in the far south-west. They are also very lucky to have him speaking up for them. The Windrush against sewage pollution campaign, and the save Windermere campaign, worked together to put together a report recently to show that the use of funds for capital projects by water companies around the country was at best wasteful and negligent, and at worst dare I say deeply, deeply suspect.

They focused on the proposal by United Utilities to spend almost £13 million of local bill payers money on an extension to a sewage outfall pipe into Windermere. As laid out in their report, they found it to be "Excessive". They also pointed out it seems unreasonable that 43 three-bedroom houses could be built for the price of putting a mere 150 metres sewage pipe into a lake. The report shines a light onto the inflated capital spending costs around the country, and it rightly asks the question, what is Ofwat doing signing this stuff off? Huge bill increases for water companies that are not spending that money

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wisely. He has outlined the outrage and

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He has outlined the outrage and the scandal of sewage leaking into our rivers, lakes and seas. It's also the case that sewage is also the case that sewage is spilling out onto our streets, ground water infiltration causes ground water infiltration causes much of the problems. Thames water in my area have so far refused to do in my area have so far refused to do anything about who corner in my anything about who corner in my parish. Does he agree this is an issue that needs to be addressed.



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I always thought the house at who

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I always thought the house at who corner was a good thing. In the village of Burnside we are now after village of Burnside we are now after 30 years of campaigning going to get some additional sewage infrastructure, which will hopefully infrastructure, which will hopefully prevent some sewage coming up onto the pavements where local kids to might get the bus to go to school. might get the bus to go to school. We should already know not to take water companies at their word.

Given their shoddy record of data transparency. For example, the Chief Executive of United Utilities amongst others admitted for the Select Committee not so long ago they had refused to release spill data until WASP appealed to the Information Commissioner. Furthermore, in 2022 United Utilities was listed as the best performing water company in England, for which it was allowed to raise its bills as a reward. However, the BBC reported whistleblowers at the environment agency claiming that United Utilities had been wrongly downgrading dozens of pollution incidents.

We can surely be forgiven for being a little cynical when those water companies propose huge sums projects like the one I have just mentioned. This is why our key criticism of the government's new Water Act is not anything that was in that legislation but of what was missing from it. The water companies can be responsible for record levels of sewage pollution to be shown to make bad use of bill payer money with inflated capital costs and dividends, it could not happen if they were regulated properly.

But

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they are not regulated properly. In my constituency in March for

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In my constituency in March for state-level in the river surged by 50%, nitrates doubled. This is 50%, nitrates doubled. This is pollution that can suffocate pollution that can suffocate wildlife. Does my honourable friend agree we urgently need a clean water authority with real enforcement powers to protect our rivers before it is too late.

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it is too late. I completely do agree with her. She is right to make that point. Securely given the experience she Securely given the experience she has inherent constituency, she rightfully and forcefully fights for her community and cleaning up our waterways. She will have seen like all of us that the principal problem is about a failure of regulation, so there has to be an answer to that. The Liberal Democrat proposal which I will come to in a moment we hope will solve the problem and certainly make more likely to be dealt with effectively.

The water industry regulatory framework is fragmented and weak. The regulators lacked the resource, the power and the culture it would appear to make a serious difference. That's why the Liberal Democrats propose a new clean water authority, so there aren't multiple

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regulators and what a company begin to act for the British people. I also represent a beautiful part of the Yorkshire Dales, and there it of the Yorkshire Dales, and there it is Yorkshire water who have been responsible for hundreds of thousands of hours of sewage spills into the rivers. They were fined by into the rivers. They were fined by Ofwat £47 million for their poor performance in 2023, for that only performance in 2023, for that only to be repeated in 2024.

Will the honourable gentleman firstly welcome honourable gentleman firstly welcome the action this government has already taken through the special measures act 2024 -- 2025, and also recognise we see the problems with regulation and we need stronger regulation of the water industry to put the environment and public health first. That is the role of the Jon Cunliffe review.

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I welcome the act, I think it's a step in the right direction, I just step in the right direction, I just don't think it's enough. She makes the point as to why it's not enough. Her water company, Yorkshire, is one of five think for water companies who between them owe Ofwat £106-£4 who between them owe Ofwat £106-£4 million of fines because of failure. million of fines because of failure. Ofwat has so far claimed nine of that. Ofwat are not a regulated -- regulator to be feared, and therefore not regulator to be responded to.

It's amongst the reasons we think we need a much more powerful new regulator, and that includes a regulator that has the power and uses the powers to refuse to sign off on spending plans that prioritise the investor over the

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I'm grateful. Can I thank him and his party for bringing this motion. It is very important we improve the quality of our rivers and seas. Does quality of our rivers and seas. Does he share with me my concern that in the Water (Special Measures) Act, the Water (Special Measures) Act, the government refused to allow local areas to retain the money from local areas to retain the money from water companies to improve the environment in that area? And if they were able to do that it would

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leads to a real improvement in the quality of the environment. I agree and he may check the

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I agree and he may check the record, that we voted alongside him on that in the committee stage of the bill. I think it makes a very the bill. I think it makes a very good point. The community's most damaged by pollution should be the ones that receive the investment ones that receive the investment that comes about from the fines, if indeed Ofwat have bothered to collect them. Alongside the need for reform and regulation, we also propose a radical transformation the ownership model.

Privatisation of the water industry has been an expensive failure. 35 years of huge debts, huge payouts to investors. There's five years of inadequate investment in our infrastructure. The Conservative promise of Britain becoming a share owning democracy turned into a predictable nightmare reality of British public utilities owned by billionaires and foreign powers, what an absolute disgrace. The end result is the rivers lakes and seas which we swim, fish, canoe, sale, and play polluted by industry and from those who have taken but would not give.

Water companies need new models of ownership, transitioning to public companies that are focused on environmental good not profiteering. The funds from customers bills pumped into upgrading infrastructure not draining away. So we welcome the Independent Water Commission shared by Sir Jon Cunliffe, although we remain impatient given the time it will take to publish the commission's findings, and the further period of time it may take the government to do anything about them followed by a legislative process, and implementation period. We will be at the end of the parliament before you know it.

To be fair, with the commission, the government is providing itself a second chance to bring in the ambitious changes that are needed. We urge them not to miss this chance. The Minister will remember with deep joy I imagine the 44 amendments that the little Democrats sought to propose, every last one of them, to the water bill back. In our submissions to Sir Jon I have sought to change the amendment into a single set of proposals to put the water industry into financial health and to harness the amazing power of citizens, scientists, and volunteers all round the country.

We called for inclusion of water campaigners, the Eden Rivers Trust, and others, to sit on water company boards. It is why we called for the government welcome sewage spills database to be searchable and retrospectively searchable tool. So we don't hamstring those brilliant volunteers who seek to hold water industry and its regulators to account. Out there there are tens of thousands of people giving their expertise, their time, and the passion, to cleaning up our waterways. Let's let them off the leash, let's equip them and empower them.

I was sad to see Conservative and Labour colleagues refused to support these measures during the passage of that Water Act I hope they will have a change of heart today. In the proposal we have before us today, we specifically urged the establishment of a new system of blue Flag status for rivers and chalk streams. As a practical way to force water companies to be more accountable for the safety of the swimmers who use them in for the ongoing protection and flourishing of precious habitats and ecosystems.



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I'm grateful. Voting for the recent Water (Special Measures) Act recent Water (Special Measures) Act and serving on the Bill Committee for the honourable member was one of the highlights of my first six months of this place. As a Coastal Community Team MP, it is so important to my constituents that we get this right. Taking a long-term transformative approach is vital. Would the honourable member agree with me it is not just the safety of with me it is not just the safety of residents and tourism that will benefit from the changes this government is introducing to clean up our water, it is also the selfless volunteers of organisations in places like Weston-super-Mare who deserved to do their vital life- saving work in clean and safe water?

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I completely agree, and the

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I completely agree, and the feeling is mutual. I appreciate I have gone on a bit I also appreciate a few other people want to

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intervene. I'm grateful to my honourable friend for giving way. I wonder if friend for giving way. I wonder if he would agree with me that even if you don't have an area where you can go swimming in your constituency, water in your constituency is going to end up in one of those areas. So to end up in one of those areas. So the rivers, roads, and in my constituency suffer from over 2000 hours of sewage spills, not only does this cause problems in ends up intrusively where there is a designated swimming area.

Does he agree with me that the blue Flag status wants to clear up the whole catchment?

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Before he returns to his feet, you can speak as long as you want but the longer you speak the less but the longer you speak the less likely to is for other colleagues.

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likely to is for other colleagues. I will take guidance from you and maybe only allow two more. I'm towards the end I appreciate your guidance to be not selfish and try guidance to be not selfish and try to be generous. I will give my

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to be generous. I will give my honourable friend one of the last two births going. Thank you. Last week I joined

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Thank you. Last week I joined residents in my constituency on citizen scientist projects, testing water quality and the findings were deeply concerning. High levels of phosphates and nitrates in the water clear evidence of damage to our waterways. Does my honourable friend join me to commend the important work of the project volunteers? But also does he agree that we need the Environment Agency to be properly resourced, to monitor the water

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quality in our rivers and seas? Ministers are lucky in so many

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Ministers are lucky in so many ways obviously, they are in the best ways obviously, they are in the best environment, and also they have an army of volunteers to call upon to help them to be their arms and legs help them to be their arms and legs out there in the community. We ask the government to empower them even the government to empower them even more. One more. I will now plough on more. One more. I will now plough on till the bitter end.

This is one of the key proposals in front of us today. The point of the status for rivers and chalk streams, it is a practical way to force water companies to be more accountable for the safety of swimmers in the ongoing protection of precious habitats. We call on the government to introduce a blue corridor program for rivers, chalk streams, and legs to ensure clean water for the creation of the new flag status. Many rivers and lakes have sites with bathing or turf.

What will surprise many people is having surprise many people is having bathing water status means the location will be tested more frequently doesn't mean it is anymore clean. There are over 24,000 sewage spills last year into our bathing waters alone. Surfers Against Sewage found the government test lacking and the site was deemed too polluted risks being denied a destination and unable to receive investment need to make blue spaces cleaner and safer. As honourable Friend pointed out recently, this gives water companies a loophole to let them get away without cleaning up a bathing site that people use regularly because it is too polluted anyway.

If it is a popular swimming site it must be clean enough. Blue Flag status will only be granted at those sites where the data shows water is clean and safe. We give the swimmers proper evidence-based information. 3024, Surfers Against Sewage received many sewage reports from contact with our water. Nine years worth of six days. -- six days. We also want to provide special protection for our chalk streams, where ecologically unique habitat often referred to as England rainforests.

But even they have come under threat in recent years. The blue Flag status of chalk streams will drive the recovery after years. To represent the precious legs and snails of my constituency is a massive privilege. We know it is our collective calling to deal with the epic creation around us. And that includes the Lake District and our toes. They are not ours to keep, they are for us to preserve for the people of this generation, and for the generation that we shall never meet.

Politics is also a great calling. It allows us in this case to establish the structure that will enable the security of waterways to be effective. Be more than just words but practical change for the better. Our motion today gives the House the opportunity to do practical good and to do so now without further delay. Residents every bit of our country want us to listen to them and to act to end the

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sewage scandal. We must not let them down. The question is as on the Order

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The question is as on the Order Paper. I call the Secretary of State in Steve Reed to move the amendment.

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in Steve Reed to move the amendment. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I beg to move the amendment standing in the name of the Prime Minister on in the name of the Prime Minister on the Order Paper. I welcome the chance to set out the action the chance to set out the action the government is taking to end the sewage scandal in our waterways once sewage scandal in our waterways once and for all. The staggeringly high level of sewage pouring into our rivers lakes and seas is a national disgrace.

The beach I visited a couple of weeks ago was forced to cancel their Boxing Day swim because of toxic levels of sewage in the water. The world-famous Oxford and Cambridge boat race earlier this month was yet again overshadowed by concerns over water quality in the Thames. So much so that Rovers were told not to throw their teammates into the river.
16:58
Steve Reed Portrait Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )
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He mentions the boat race in Oxford. Of course in 10 weeks time we will be welcoming the world Rovers to Henley at the Royal Regatta. We also share my concerns

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about the amount of sewage being pumped in that part of the Thames which is blighting the event? I am grateful to him for his

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I am grateful to him for his intervention. I absolutely share his concerns. Wherever it is happening, where it is damaging people's ability to enjoy our rivers, it is a disgrace, and the scandal and what we want to work across this house to put right. Parents across the country should not have to worry about letting their children splash about letting their children splash about in the river or paddle in the sea during a sunny bank holiday sea during a sunny bank holiday weekend.

I recently met campaigners at Windermere, your gentleman's constituency, who told me they are sick and tired of the sewage flowing into that laconically beautiful lake on their doorstep. A few years ago it caused algae that turned it right green. Up and down the country, the public are furious about water pollution, and so are my. So is this house. How did we get into this situation? It is I'm afraid to say the toxic result of years of failure by the previous Conservative government.

Instead of fixing our sewage system for a problem turned into a crisis, the Conservatives stood back, and let water companies divert millions of pounds of their customers money into the pockets of their bosses and their shareholders. Over £25 million was paid in bonuses to water company chief executives during the last Parliament alone. The Tories left our water infrastructure to crumble into ruin.

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Putting party politics aside for a moment, I want to point out to him that Southern Water was fined a that Southern Water was fined a record amount, £90 million, for record amount, £90 million, for dumping raw sewage in 2021. Last year it received another fine for dumping sewage in rivers near dumping sewage in rivers near Southampton. And this year bills have risen by almost 50% for residents in my constituency. They residents in my constituency. They are now proposing to recycle are now proposing to recycle effluent water near my constituency to distribute drinking water to residents in Fareham.

Will the Secretary of State do the right thing and reject the proposals by Southern Water which is expensive,

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destructive, and dubious? I don't trust the company and my constituents don't. We do the right thing? I thank her for intervention. But

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I thank her for intervention. But I hope she will work with the government and support the reforms government and support the reforms we are bringing forward to improve the functioning and performance of the water sector. And all the water the water sector. And all the water guppies up and down the country, so we can prevent the kind of concerns that she is speaking about in a that she is speaking about in a But looking at the record of the But looking at the record of the past government, if you see a crack in the wall of your house and you leave it for 10 years the problem gets much worse.

It costs much more to put it right. And that is exactly what happened with our sewage system. Rivers lakes and seas across this country choked by record levels of raw human filth. They also rising to repair damage that could have been done earlier. The Tories polluted our waterways and left bill payers to pay the price for their failure. No wonder they stand condemned as the sewage party.

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My constituency is served by Thames Water, the largest provider in the country. Every week in my in the country. Every week in my surgery it is fair to say I have people who frankly have given up on people who frankly have given up on this issue ever being fixed. Can the Secretary of State provide my constituents and the rest of the country reassurance that this Labour country reassurance that this Labour government will fix the issue left by the party opposite.

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by the party opposite. I'm grateful for his intervention. As he will have seen, we already passed the Water (Special Measures) Act, which gives regulators more teeth to enforce against the polluting water companies. We are looking forward to Sir Jon Cunliffe's review, we get the interim review next month, the final review the month after that. That will lead to further action to reset this sector one central.

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On the water bill, it's wonderful to hear the Minister say he wants to take action against criminal action against water companies and bosses, against water companies and bosses, I actually tabled an amendment to do just that which was rejected by the government. It's interesting that government. It's interesting that now the bill has passed they are so now the bill has passed they are so keen, why didn't they just accept my amendment or a similar amendment, because it doesn't actually mention criminal charges and what they are going to do like my amendment did in the bill, but it passed without that measure being put in place.

Now they are saying from a point of retrospective gleeful mass from the Dispatch Box that they would like to put that in. I'm just wondering if

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that's actually going to happen. With great respect, their party

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With great respect, their party had 14 years to take action and they did nothing. While I'm grateful to the Liberal Democrats, for calling the Liberal Democrats, for calling this debate and I think there are many points of similarity between our approaches, I must gently point to some of the opportunities they to some of the opportunities they missed to take action when they were in government. The environment agency for instance had its funding agency for instance had its funding cut by more than half between 2010 and 2019.

Leading to a fall in prosecutions against water companies and other polluters. Of course, there were Liberal Democrats in the coalition cabinet that started those cuts. The coalition government published a report in 2011 which wrongly, and in my view bizarrely, concluded water regulation "Works and is not fundamentally flawed". Under that coalition government Liberal Democrat Minister was responsible for the water sector between 2013 and 2015, and disappointingly kept in place the very system of regulation that the right honourable gentleman has white rightly just criticised.



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I'm grateful. Will he recognise

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I'm grateful. Will he recognise that if one looks at the budget for that if one looks at the budget for 2009 and 2010 it shows there then Labour Chancellor was projecting bigger capital cuts in expenditure than were carried out under the coalition government.

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coalition government. I don't think what happened with the coalition government was the fault of the previous Labour government. I'm just gently pointing government. I'm just gently pointing out the Liberal Democrats had a chance to reset regulation in a way this government is doing now. I'm grateful for their support where they offer it for that work, I think working constructively across the house we can make sure we reset now our water sector that has failed the public, consumers, investment and the environment for far too long.



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In my constituency the cut runs from Binfield through to the Thames, they had 615 hours of sewage pumped into it last year, a constituent of mine had a dog that needed to be put mine had a dog that needed to be put down because it got so ill from swimming in it. No matter how many fines we put on Thames Water, when fines we put on Thames Water, when that comes back to our bills and we have to pay for it will do nothing to deter shareholders and make them invest properly where needed.



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invest properly where needed. Makes a powerful case for why reform is so desperately needed, my condolences to the owner of the dog.

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That's a terrible to happen. Bill payers in my constituency of Shipley are faced with an 18% hike Shipley are faced with an 18% hike in their bills, by 2030 that could in their bills, by 2030 that could be as much as 35%. Already a part of that bill, about 19%, is servicing the debt of the holding company that the debt of the holding company that owns Yorkshire water. The failure to tackle these problems in the water industry by the opposition parties, plural, opposite during daytime in plural, opposite during daytime in government are not customers now paying the price for their failure

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to address this? She is absolutely right, I thank her for her intervention. But I am her for her intervention. But I am angry about the bill rises, unsure she is to an other members are. But in a real sense, those people are in a real sense, those people are being forced to pay the price for 14 years of Conservative failure. Previous governments let the sewage Previous governments let the sewage scandal spread. This government will end it once and for all.

That work end it once and for all. That work began as soon as we came into office, within one week of the general election I invited the water company chief executives into my office and I ring fenced money earmarked for investment in water infrastructure so it can never again be diverted for payment as bonuses or dividends.

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I welcome the rapid at this government has taken to hold failing government has taken to hold failing water companies to account. Does the Secretary of State share my view that it's simply disgraceful water company CEOs such as Yorkshire water's nickel assure who paid water's nickel assure who paid herself £371,000 bonus, were able to pay themselves multi-million pound pay themselves multi-million pound bonuses while also overseeing record

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levels of sewage spills. She is right, that's why we've given the regulator new powers in the Water (Special Measures) Bill, something the party opposite could have done at any point during their 14 years in power but at no point did they actually take that commonsense piece of action. Of course, we passed that landmark piece of legislation, the Water (Special Measures) Act, which became law in February of this year. It gives the regulator calf new powers to hold water companies to account.

A ban on unfair bonuses when water company bosses failed to meet standards. Stricter penalties including up to two years in prison if water company employees obstruct investigations by regulators. And severe and automatic fines for wrongdoing. Environmental regulators can now recover costs for successful enforcement, meaning the polluter pays and the regulators gain new resources to enforce more effectively.

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I would suggest to the Secretary

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I would suggest to the Secretary of State that the problem may be more deep-seated than we realise, he mentioned algae blooms in the mentioned algae blooms in the district. Turning the water a strange colour. The fact is these strange colour. The fact is these blooms suck the oxygen out of the water, that leads to the death of wildlife in the water. Furthermore, wildlife in the water. Furthermore, the sewage contains heavy metals and other toxic substances that cannot only kill fish, it affects their only kill fish, it affects their ability to reproduce.

You may find ecosystems that have been damaged in

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a much longer term than we realise. Of course I recognise the

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Of course I recognise the catastrophe he is talking about. It's not just that the water is polluted, it becomes toxic. And it's killing ecosystems. And damaging the killing ecosystems. And damaging the wider environment. Those are reasons we need to move ahead quickly with the reforms this government is the reforms this government is working towards. I will give way to more times, then I had better make progress or Madame Deputy Speaker progress or Madame Deputy Speaker will chastise me.

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He is right to outline his legislation he is bringing forward, but on the ground as is still frustration that when polluting is frustration that when polluting is happening in rivers such as in my constituency, where we still see constituency, where we still see overflows not sewage overflows but from development pollutants going into the river, parish councils identifying that quickly and coming identifying that quickly and coming to me, the accountability structures behind water companies such as behind water companies such as Southern water it will not answer to Southern water it will not answer to elected members like myself is still not seeing the improvement he is advocating at the Dispatch Box.

Will he agree to meet with me and my parish council to outline their concerns, and could he outline how further the sewage act he has just brought forward will be able to add to that accountability for parish councils and local residents.

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He makes a very important point,

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He makes a very important point, one of the issues Sir Jon Cunliffe and water commission are looking at is how we can increase accountability and respond directly accountability and respond directly to customers and authorities like the parish councils he talks about.

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the parish councils he talks about. I'm happy to arrange a meeting with him and the appropriate Minister. The Secretary of State referred

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The Secretary of State referred to rare ecological rivers that can be damaged by sewage pollution. In be damaged by sewage pollution. In my constituency of St Albans we have a rare chalk stream, Thames Water says much of the sewage dumping happens because pipes are old and porous. Part of the solution for that is to line them, but when they are lining pipes they are not prioritising pipes close to rare chalk streams. Will the Secretary of State meet with me to discuss my build that will make water companies prioritise those pipes that are close to chalk streams because of their rare ecological status?

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I thank her for her intervention. I know that river well, I used to walk past it every day on my way to walk past it every day on my way to primary school. I would be happy to make sure she gets a meeting with the appropriate Minister to raise those points. The additional new those points. The additional new resources that our reforms will give to the regulators are underpinned by mandatory monitoring of storm mandatory monitoring of storm overflows and pollution incidents.

What are companies in England and Wales must now publish information Wales must now publish information on the frequency and duration of discharges from every single storm overflow, within one hour of the discharge happening. We have extended this to emergency overflows, so all spills will be publicly reported in near real-time. Expect water companies to monitor 50% of them by 2030, and the rest by 2035. Companies are now required to publish their annual pollution incident reduction plans and implementation reports to outline the progress they have made and show the public they have a credible plan to end the scandal of water pollution.

These measures give the water regulators new powers to hold water companies to account, and ensure customers and the environment always come first. We can and we will turn the water sector around. We have secured over £104 billion of private sector investment in the water sector over the next five years. That's the biggest investment into our water sector in its history, and the second biggest investment into any part of the economy over the lifetime of this Parliament. It will build and upgrade water infrastructure in every single region of the country.

Sewage spills by 45% compared to 2021 levels, and drastically improve the quality of water in our rivers, lakes and seas. It will allow us to move ahead with nine new reservoirs and nine large-scale water transfer schemes, and reduce leaks from crumbling pipes so we have a reliable water supply for the future. This vast investment will create tens of thousands of jobs up and down the country, allow us to go ahead with building 1.5 million new homes, support 150 major infrastructure projects, and power new industries with high water usage new industries with high water usage such as data centres.

This is the regional economic that the country voted for last year, this is our

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plan for change in action. I think a lot of what has been

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I think a lot of what has been put forward is something all sides put forward is something all sides of the house agree with. I am fortunate to have the beautiful River Trent in my constituency, as well as others. One of the biggest well as others. One of the biggest issues is housing, you touched on the issue of new developments and the issue of new developments and housing, and the run-off from these housing, and the run-off from these developments not being tended.

I wonder if he could touch on how that can best be tended. It's sometimes

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I have asked Sir Jon Cunliffe to look at measures we can implement to look at measures we can implement to start to address the point he is making and wider issues around neutrality in our waterways. I'm going to make some progress because I don't want to take up too much of the debate. Last month the Water Minister and I toured the country to see where and how this investment would be spent from Windermere to the Wye, Hampshire to Norfolk, and the Wye, Hampshire to Norfolk, and Somerset.

We are working with local organisations and Windermere to eliminate all sewage discharges into the lake. This includes schemes that allows owners of septic tanks to connect to the main sewer network today no longer discharge directly into the water. On the River Wye we are running a joint research initiative with the Welsh Government to tackle water quality issues across the catchment. We are working with local farmers, environmental groups and citizen scientists, to investigate the sources of the pollution, so we can tackle them effectively.

The south-east of England will face severe water shortages by 2030 we don't act urgently. So we are supporting new infrastructure, such as a reservoir which will store almost 9 billion L of water when it is completed. This is just the start of our wider plan to fundamentally reset the water sector so it is fit for the future. I am grateful to Sir Jon Cunliffe, for undertaking the biggest review of the water sector since privatisation. He is supported by an advisory group of experts covering the environment, public health, investors, engineering, customers, and economics.

The failures of regulation and governance that allowed our water system to decline to such scandalous failure must never happen again. This summer, Sir Jon will publish his findings into how we can build the robust regulatory framework we need to clean up our waterways, build infrastructure for a reliable water supply, and restore public confidence. If he doesn't mind I'm going to make a little more progress because I have taken well over 20 minutes of time already. Sir Jon is looking at how we can embrace a catchment based approach to cleaning up our rivers, and our farming roadmap support farmers to transition to more nature positive farming methods that will reduce agricultural run-off into our waterways.

I hope many members have shared their views as part of the Water Commission's Call for Evidence which closes incidentally at the end of the day. The government will respond and consult on the commission's recommendations, and we intend to legislate so we can completely reset our water sector for the future. The Water Minister has announced reforms to shake up our water bathing regulations for the first time in more than a decade, so that more people, the swimmers, paddle boarders, or surfers, can get outside and enjoy our water safely.

Our proposals would remove the fixed bathing season dates from the regulations to better reflect when people actually use our waters, and allow greater flexibility in monitoring. I will let him this time because it's been persistent.

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I am grateful. I was reading your court reforms and the third one court reforms and the third one states the way the season for bathing is changed. However, it continues the principal that water is not tested by the environment agency all year round, that is an important thing that is missed and important thing that is missed and has to be changed. When you have a season and the water will be season and the water will be polluted, the Secretary of State look at changing that to all year look at changing that to all year round testing for our blue flag areas please?

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I would like him to consider we are having over 30 colleagues wishing to contribute and the longer

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wishing to contribute and the longer he speaks the less likely they will all get in. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I won't take any more interventions. I won't take any more interventions. I hit the point he is making. Public health is a priority in the reforms health is a priority in the reforms that we are making. And the environment agency must consider public safety or the environment when they are considering when they are considering applications for bathing and remove harmful automatic designation of bathing waters so we can continue to bathing waters so we can continue to invest in and improve the site.

Applications for new bathing waters will open next month, adding to the modern 450 bathing waters across the country for top details of how to apply online. The sewage scandal ends with this Labour government. Our Water can act gives regulators tough new powers to hold water companies to account. They were no longer get away with polluting our waterways and rewarding themselves with undeserved bonuses for what they have done. This is a fresh start for the water sector. A fundamental reset that will clean up our waterways, create thousands of jobs, the economy, and give us a reliable water supply for decades to come.

Exciting progress is already being made. The Thames Tidal Wave tunnel was fully activated in February, an amazing feat of British engineering and entrepreneurial spirit that will reduce sewage spills into the Thames by around 95%. Since coming into operation, the tunnel has captured enough sewage to fill Wembley Stadium five times over, and stopped it pouring into the river. I want to see innovation like this, not just in London but right across the country. Bringing investment, driving regional economic growth, and cleaning up our waterways for good.

In conclusion, many of us cherish memories from childhood, some holidays on the beach, exploring pools or splashing about in the waves. Today's children deserve to make those same magical memories that we did. This is our moment to give our children back the future that is their birthright. To restore pride in our rivers lakes and seas, to end the sewage scandal and clean up our waterways for good. This is the prize, and this is the government that will make it happen.
17:22
Victoria Atkins Portrait Rt Hon Victoria Atkins MP (Louth and Horncastle, Conservative)
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The question was on the Order Paper, since when the amendment has been proposed as on the Order Paper. The question is that the original words stand part of the question. Before I call the shadow Secretary of State, because Frontbench got omissions have been so substantial, backbenchers will be on a time limit of three minutes when I turn to

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them. I called the shadow Secretary of State Victoria Atkins. Because I respect the fact that this is the Liberal Democrat opposition day debate I have opposition day debate I have genuinely been cutting bits out of genuinely been cutting bits out of my speech so I will hope there will forgive me for don't take every intervention. I thank the Democrats are choosing to debate this issue. are choosing to debate this issue. We all know and agree that there are fundamental problems facing the water and sewerage industry.

A drainage and sewerage system that drainage and sewerage system that was first built in the Victorian era does not meet the needs of the population that it now serves, all the pressures of more frequent and severe weather events. To fix the problem, we must first diagnose it and measure it. That is why, under the previous government, we took the essential step of radically overhauling the monitoring of storm over. The Secretary of State on previous occasions has dismissed the significance of this data collection and monitoring.

I think that is unfair because when we came into government in 2010, the Labour government had left us, as well as the Liberal Democrats in the coalition government, with a water system that was out of control with just 7% of storm over to be monitored. In other words, people were swimming and playing in water across the country without knowing that it had been contaminated with raw sewage. I had the pleasure of going to school in Blackpool and we knew there were certain times of the summer season where locals would not venture into the sea because we knew some of the consequences that would happen if we dared to do so.

The points I make to everyone in this chamber is that this is a long- standing set of problems. To pretend otherwise I'm afraid, I know some people get a little carried away with advocacy, to pretend otherwise is not doing either the public, our constituents, or indeed our waterways themselves the justice that they deserve. And we are proud of the fact that by the time we left governments, we had met our ambitious targets to ensure that 100% of storm over monitored.

The importance of this is emphasised. I would just finish this point. The importance of this is emphasised by the interventions we have already heard today. Members across this house have been citing the very stark and shocking statistics of storm over, sewage overflows and so on in their constituencies. They rely on those figures rightly already in this debate and I have no doubt will allow them in their speeches as well. But in the dark days before 2010, their predecessors would not have had this information.

I see a Labour member laughing about that, I don't know why she's laughing about knowing more about

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the data collection so we can correct it. I will take the intervention over here. I thank the Shadow Minister for

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I thank the Shadow Minister for giving way. Monitoring sewage giving way. Monitoring sewage overflows does not immediately improve the health of our environment or our public. And it is environment or our public. And it is the first minimum step to be able to then take meaningful action. And I'm then take meaningful action. And I'm sorry to say the previous government failed to take meaningful action. failed to take meaningful action. Between 2021 and 2023, Dewsbury and Batley experienced a massive number of sewage spills totalling 4604 incidents and the total duration of a staggering 28,383 hours.

Or approximately 3 1/4 years. Does my right honourable friend agree with me and my constituents that the privatisation of the water industry has been a total and abject failure causing significant harm to our environment, public health, and wildlife?

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Order. The honourable gentleman will know the interventions need to be brief and should not be preprepared and read out from a

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script. May I thank the honourable

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May I thank the honourable gentleman, and say to him, he in fact has a slide at theOf my speech. fact has a slide at theOf my speech. This improved knowledge must lead to This improved knowledge must lead to action. This is their debate and I will give them the respect that they deserve for this opposition day deserve for this opposition day debate. This improved knowledge must lead to action. As I'm delighted that the Secretary of State acknowledged, one of the most tangible improvements in the last decade is just a few metres away under our feet, the Thames tidal weight tunnel.

The Secretary of State did not have the generosity of spirit to acknowledge the role the Conservative government played in this because this multibillion pound infrastructure project announced and delivered by the Conservative government, is already stopping half a million tonnes of sewage flowing into the River Thames since it started operating in February. And over time, the 16 mile pipe is expected to stop 95% of sewage spills that previously would have polluted the river Thames. This is meaningful action that is already making a real difference to our nation's capital, built on the data that some laugh at, and I genuinely ask, where is Labour's plan for more of this? In government we also wanted to clear up the water industry and our environment.

It was the Environment Act under the last government that gave stronger powers to regulators and imposed strict demands for tackling pollution. We set legally binding targets to improve water quality and availability, and to reduce nutrient pollution. We rolled out catchment sensitive farming to all farms in England. We stepped up the requirements for investment during investment from water companies and storm overflowing improvements. After 14 years in opposition, the Labour Party should have come into office with a plan of what more needed to be done to fix this century old problem.

And they should have set that plan in action last summer with energy and gusto. I know the right honourable gentleman is chuntering from a sedentary position, say what a delight it is deceiving the chamber, normally he is running from farmers. But instead we have had an underwhelming trickle. Review, yet another talking shop forum that has not done anything other than have a meeting, and a bill that has, as we described it during the passage of the bill, set out much of what was already happening.

As with every other part of this government, they have no plan, they are now trying to come up with one. For example, when the Secretary of State recently pledged to clean up Lake Windermere's only rainwater flows into it, it was a laudable ambition. Who can disagree with that ambition? But he gave no timeframe and no plan for delivering this vision. I have also visited the honourable Member for Westmorland constituency I met local residents and farmers, something I don't the Secretary of State managed to do.

I met business owners recently. They do notice. And they are not holding their breath for action. Rather like his no farming policy, it is all A significant amount of the supposedly groundbreaking legislation including blocking policies and fines was already brought in by the previous brought in by the previous government. Sadly, they rejected our amendment for the important Water Restoration Fund including the efforts to protect chalk streams. I am happy to give way if the honourable Levy will support and

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carry on the work. I think you will find that our

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I think you will find that our argument was with the Water argument was with the Water argument was with the Water Restoration Fund was carried out and I think your information might be

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I think your information might be out of date. I am delighted to hear that. That was not the response that she gave when we debated this and we were pressing her to put it in the bill. It is precisely because we have done our job scrutinising the bill and trying to do it that I'm delighted she has now put at into action. Another example and I'm happy to take another intervention but we also put forward an amendment to limit the debt water companies could accumulate as well as an amendment to protect bill payers but sadly both were rejected.

Perhaps the honourable lady... She is welcome to intervene if she is doing that. We have not got that commitment. I'm happy to give me because I want to

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improve her legislation. I think what you will find my

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I think what you will find my response to that is that it is part response to that is that it is part of looking after it and we have had of looking after it and we have had this conversation many times across in the Bill committee and it is part in the Bill committee and it is part of what the commission is looking of what the commission is looking at. As much as I accept what she is

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saying, she had 14 years. Where is the energy and the gospel? The rewriting of history gospel? The rewriting of history seems to be a theme for the seems to be a theme for the government. We banned bonuses for government. We banned bonuses for the losses that have committed criminal breaches and water companies that illegally pollute rivers can be prosecuted, making it clear polluters will pay for damage clear polluters will pay for damage to the environment and I hope in winding up the Minister will answer the point that my honourable friend made about the fines being ring fenced for local areas and the important point that my honourable friend made that the amendment brought forward to the Water Are Special Measures Bill but the Secretary of State fell back on what is said about the past rather than setting out his vision for the future.

We quadrupled inspections and set in place a plan to have 4000 inspections a year by April 2025, increasing to 10,000 a year by 2026. Will the government commit to the vital work or will be Chancellor cut the budget so starkly that these are

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cancelled? The stunning river running

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The stunning river running through derby has been polluted 6275 through derby has been polluted 6275 times in 2024, lasting over 15,000 hours and I would invite the honourable member to see if they honourable member to see if they will take responsibility for cutting the budget by 50% and leaving the environment agency without the powers and resources to combat this sort of sewage.

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I have to say that some of the disappointments that local residents have had, particularly in my part of have had, particularly in my part of the world, with the environment agency, it means that there is still agency, it means that there is still real work to do. Starting with her first intervention, of course she is relying on data and this is the relying on data and this is the point. I come back to the point and I'm trying to be constructive and collegiate in the way we deal with collegiate in the way we deal with this and the public will hear laughter and what they do not understand, I am trying to be constructive in that we have managed to collect data and we did have significant infrastructure investment in the Thames title pipe and they are there is more to do and I have always said that and we will genuinely support constructive efforts by the government and that is why we scrutinise legislation and put proper amendments forward and I'm delighted that the government has taken so seriously and enacted it and we have to have this conversation in a way that there is not conducted with the emotional distress that the Secretary of State seems to be in at the moment and the Liberal Democrats now the scale of the challenge.

There was a Liberal Democrat water minister in place for a large part of the Coalition government. That fact seems to have been missed. I am sure it is an oversight. We agree that they want to see more progress and the number of designated water has increased and we have seen significant improvement in ratings with more water rated as excellent and good and an increase in blue-flag beaches. As a proud coastal MP I want to see many more on the coastline and of course I will support meaningful efforts to achieve that.

If I may, I would ask for a point of clarity from the Liberal Democrats because in 2023 they called for a ban on bank holiday sewage discharges which was again a laudable ambition but it was pointed out that the policy would result in burst water pipes and sewage backing into people's homes and my question is that when we put forward these ambitions which we all want to see, will they ensure that they are not dealing with unintended consequences, including sewage flowing back up into people's homes.

I finish on this point, Madam Deputy Speaker. I emphasise that we all care about the quality of waterways and as we have shown, we will work constructively across the House to improve waterways and the legislation put forward by the government and I am proud to lead the work for this with the Conservative Party with my excellent team and my honourable friend and we will be watching and scrutinising government work on water carefully and the promises that the Secretary of State for Transport king they will be remembered by constituents, colleagues across the House, and voters and I am afraid as his promises are remembered by our

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farmers. Can I thank the Liberal Democrats for securing this important debate? They are asking for a three you can They are asking for a three you can once, to take urgent action to end the scandal, to provide greater protection against the dumping of sewage, and to make sure the public sewage, and to make sure the public knows when rivers are clean and safe I have great news for the Liberal Democrats. We've pretty much
17:39
17:41
17:41
Julia Buckley Portrait Julia Buckley MP (Shrewsbury, Labour)
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intervention. More important is the impact of The Water Special Measures

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Bill. Backbenchers should now that the

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Backbenchers should now that the honourable gentleman fell into error by mis-characterising the comment I made about him and his colleague made about him and his colleague next to him laughing during the next to him laughing during the course of my speech when I was talking about the importance of data monitoring. It was not in any way...

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monitoring. It was not in any way... Order. The Shadow Secretary Of State will know that was not the State will know that was not the point of order but the point of debate. We best return to Julia Buckley. I thank Madam Deputy Speaker for her excellent chairmanship. Our important bill has not just bad policies but introduce criminal liability and so finally criminal liability and so finally those tougher penalties which will mean chief executives and senior leadership could end up in prison for up to two years and the mandatory electronics sectors we have heard about which monitor overflows in real time and objective data measured in real time and crucially, because it's important for the liberal Democrats, it will be available to the public.

I must make progress, forgive me. We will force them to deliver on the plan for sustainable urban drainage to rectify an illiquid infrastructure which has not kept up with capacity over the last 30 years. In Shropshire, that is £500 million of additional investing to rectify sewage drainage over the next five years. I have only been an MP for a few months but in this short time I am proud of the swift and decisive action to immediately curtail the excesses of the privatised water industry.

In my own constituency, we have significant sewage outflows in the town centre as the river looks round the centre with 30 combined sewage overflows and we have inadequate infrastructure which has been ignored under cobbled streets and the special measures Bill could not come quickly enough for my constituents and quite specifically it has delivered all three asks of the Liberal Democrats in the debate and we have taken urgent action and legislated to protect consumers and we have ensured the public have the information that they need.

There is no question of the commitment of the government to clean up water. The only question is why the Liberal Democrats voted against this

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important bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, the
17:44
Brian Mathew Portrait Brian Mathew MP (Melksham and Devizes, Liberal Democrat)
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Madam Deputy Speaker, the pollution of rivers is an issue which strikes close to home for many which strikes close to home for many of us. November of last year, the water company was fined £500,000 for pumping raw sewage into a small river 5 miles through Melksham in my constituency and this incident resulted in the deaths of over 2000 fish, including all aquatic life within a 1 mile radius. The systems in place could not handle the pressure brought to bear by the increasing volatility and the rainfall levels seen in recent times.

I've also been to visit the home of one of my constituents in home of one of my constituents in west Lavington where I was injured as a result of. There was toxic sewage. There was a variety of species including trade. These incidents cannot be allowed to persist. The current Antiquity piping system does not satisfy modern demand. Water companies must lead and future proof these issues. We need them to do it now. We are pleased to see that Wessex water, credit where credit is due, invested £2 million to a sewage storage facility to ensure that they can mitigate increased pressure on sewage pipes.

However, it is clear that more must be done to protect the vital aquatic ecosystems and we must be clear that it is not just a problem for water companies. Developments in farming practices have led to detrimental impact on soil quality and river health. Dedication to the production of maize has travelled making it one of the fastest growing crops that allows for high levels of surface run-off, causing soil degradation and pollution of rivers, making it The rise in poultry units is another concern.

High levels of phosphates and other farm animals, thus staffing fish and river plants of oxygen. Run-off chicken farms or indeed from fields spread with chicken manure is catastrophic to our waterways. So yes, we must expect better from our water companies. Investments in infrastructure must rise with the demands of the modern world. However, we should also approach the

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issue of river pollution... With the honourable member

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With the honourable member acknowledge that actually some water companies have been investing companies have been investing heavily, and my area in Stroud, seven Trent actually invested £25 million to stop overflow of sewage million to stop overflow of sewage into our river. Together with natural flood management from our district council, we've actually made the rivers cleaner and as a keen swimmer, I'm very grateful to

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keen swimmer, I'm very grateful to that. So would you acknowledge that? Thank you for that intervention. And as I just said, similar investments have been made and credit where credit is due. But if I can move on to the end of my speech, which is referring to these issues about farming, which are important, so what I'm saying is we should also approach the issue of river pollution in a far more holistic manner, acknowledging various factors, including agriculture that contributed just 14% of our waterways being in good health.
17:48
Catherine Fookes Portrait Catherine Fookes MP (Monmouthshire, Labour)
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We've had a wonderful surf around the UK this afternoon, and there are rivers, lakes and seas, and every single one of us in this House will have a waterway in our constituency, and we have all had to endure the worst impacts of 14 years of negligence and failure that almost killed some of our rivers. The rivers running through my constituency of Monmouthshire are two fantastic examples of waterways that have been sadly affected for too long. Run-off from agriculture, liquid waste from industry, sewage resulting from inadequate investment by failing water companies have all added up to increasing phosphate levels in our rivers.

Tests have in the past shown scarily high levels of E. Coli in the water, which made it unsafe for bathing and stop people from enjoying the river in the ways they should be able to and the ways that the Secretary of State mentioned earlier, splashing through streams and jumping into the sea. We should all be able to swim and kayak and canoe without being worried about infection. Businesses have suffered like Angela Jones his business depends on the river. I want to pay tribute to the researchers who tirelessly worked to save our rivers.

These members of our community up and down the whole of the UK are testing and monitoring the rivers for pollution and coming up with innovative cross-border solutions. The good news is that this government has paid attention to people in Monmouthshire and all of England and Wales. The last government had an unfunded pie in the sky action plan for the River Wye that only low to England. Water flows across borders and I'm so pleased that the two Labour governments in Westminster and in Cardiff have, as the sector of state so eloquently mentioned already, make progress and put £1 million of funding into the River Wye so we can clean it up once and for all.

And of course the water special measures act has made extraordinary progress in making sure polluters are held to account stop it will strengthen the powers of OfWAT so we can better hold water companies to account. It will bring tough criminal charges against those who break the law. This is only the beginning. We know there is much more to do and the harmless review that is upcoming will help us do this, but I'm so proud that the Labour government has achieved more in nine months than the previous government did in 14 years, and notably more than the Lib Dems also did in coalition.



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My constituency after South Cotswolds contains the source of the Thames, so in theory, I could row from my constituency to this House. I would like to celebrate the opening of the Thames Tideway Tunnel as referenced by the Secretary of State earlier. Back in 2013 I was State earlier. Back in 2013 I was campaigning for this tunnel, which included frowning at a sewage outflow under Putney Bridge, so you could say that I've been in the excrement for quite some time.

Sadly excrement for quite some time. Sadly the situation has not improved. During those 12 years in between. Just this morning ahead of very impressive young man Ben Thornbury
17:52
Roz Savage Portrait Dr Roz Savage MP (South Cotswolds, Liberal Democrat)
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in my office to commend him for his work cleaning up the River Avon in Malmesbury. Sadly let no good deed Malmesbury. Sadly let no good deed goes unpunished, he picked up sepsis from the pollution in the river, and I'm grateful to say made a full recovery but still, it's a sign of recovery but still, it's a sign of the times. So surprisingly maybe, I'd like to use a word rarely heard I'd like to use a word rarely heard in the context of the water industry, hope.

I would like to highlight some ways in which good highlight some ways in which good things are happening. Largely at the grassroots. First of all, citizen science. There were 80 pollution incidents reported by citizens just in my constituency in Wiltshire and Gloucestershire in the last year. And often citizen science can highlight pollution incidents up to three days before official sources of information.

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In my constituency and very lucky to have friends of the river frame and frame families for the future who do lots of citizen science in testing the river but does my Noble testing the river but does my Noble Friend agree with me that we shouldn't be relying on these groups to test the water quality and we need to empower and resource the environment agency to be doing this

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environment agency to be doing this we can't just rely on areas that are lucky enough to have these kind of groups in place? I thank her for her intervention and I do completely agree that although I commend the efforts of although I commend the efforts of grassroots efforts, this is not their job. So I'm delighted to hear from the secretary of state that we are seen to have real-time reporting on water pollution and look forward on water pollution and look forward to seeing the visible and smell above results of that.

I would also like to say it is the Earthwatch water Blitz this weekend, so you'll have time to get your testing kits and do your own bit of citizen science. Secondly again applauding local efforts, especially the Malmesbury Rivers Valley trust and The Cotswold Lakes trust that are doing such exemplary work taking care of our waterways and our wetlands in the South Cotswolds. I would also like to recommend to members across the House that we use our power to convene to bring together people around these issues.

In the South Cotswolds recently held two very fruitful summers, one on the Gloucestershire side, one of the Welsh side, bringing people together around the issue of flooding that yielded a lot of enthusiasm and expertise and a lot of actionable solutions. But as my honourable friend has already mentioned, we cannot leave it all to the grassroots. This is a deeply dysfunctional water industry that we have in this country and we need to get upstream of these problems. To

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the source. We've been hearing about all this monitoring and one hour and the huge monitoring and one hour and the huge amount of discharges. May I tell you amount of discharges. May I tell you we don't have any of that information in Scotland? It is not a requirement for Scottish water to release that. And the SNP government release that. And the SNP government are not making any steps to do so. We have no idea what the extent of the problems but we know it's the problems but we know it's substantial.

So I encourage my honourable friend to back me in

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honourable friend to back me in supporting the calls for the Scottish government to release the same information you have in England. I'd be more than happy to back his calls for an equivalent system in Scotland. So finally, I would like to thank the government for everything that it is already doing around performing the water industry and look forward to seeing real results in our waterways. I would just like to add that while I welcome the Cunliffe review, I was disappointed to find out that the actual ownership of water companies is outside of its scope.

If we are to get genuinely to the source of the problem...

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Sitting on the FO committee, we are making submissions as well to are making submissions as well to the Cunliffe review, and I do not the Cunliffe review, and I do not believe what is outside its ownership. It is something that the Cunliffe review will be looking at, Cunliffe review will be looking at, the way water is owned, maybe not nationalisation but certainly other

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methods of ownership. I thank the honourable member for

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I thank the honourable member for her intervention. That was not what I'd been led to believe from a roundtable with Sir Jon Cunliffe, but maybe I misunderstood. Because the truth is that the profit motive has no place in a vital public utility like the water industry. We are one of only two countries in the entire world has a privatised water industry. Clearly it's not working and needs to be reviewed.
17:56
Joe Morris Portrait Joe Morris MP (Hexham, Labour)
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It's a pleasure to speak in such an important debate, potentially representing one of the most beautiful counties in England, the largest constituency in England as LibDem spokesman has only hinted at. And rivers defined my constituency, define the county I grew up in from the Tyne to the cocoa to the Allen valleys all the way through the river read. You cannot go throughout Northumberland without crossing or cutting across rivers and communities need for them that depend on them, the drive tourism and wildlife, the drive our local economies.

Protecting those rivers is not just a luxury, not nice to have, is a fundamental duty for those of us who represent those communities, incredibly proud to be the MP for a constituency that is so vibrant and active and has such fantastic grassroots campaigners, including Doctor Stephen Westgarth and the clean time campaign. Members opposite will be aware that Stephen was at one point a Conservative county council candidate. I do enjoy working cross-party with people although the week before they can election is not quite so much as the week after.

And I should at this point say that there is one retiring Green Party councillor in my constituency who would like to pay tribute to, and despite running against me during the general election was always very good company, and I met him on the doorsteps. To go back to slightly Hackney party politics, I do recognise quite how much the sewage issue gets and confirms just how much the country have for the state of stagnation and decline. During 2024, my constituency was polluted 3991 times, lasting over 27,000 hours.

Dumping sewage is not waste management, it's to destruction and vandalism, particularly devastating in the rural north-east were so much tourism relies on it. And when the Minister comes to wind up, I know she's not in her place but I hope you will hear it, I hope you will dwell on the communities that relied on, particularly isolated communities like those in Kielder where they have to deal with the practicalities of living so sparsely and I will often talk about Hexham having a very rural population, now when I go to Kielder they will look at me from Hexham as if I've come from Vegas.

I was in a Kielder parish council meeting, took an hour to get there, one of the farmers is feeding her cows, she came out the shower. As the level of sparsity, the level of reality we are dealing with. So I would just urge the with. So I would just urge the Minister when she comes to her feet to address that issue, to command me to address that issue, to command me with clean time campaign discussed the challenges they face, the work they are doing to preserve some of they are doing to preserve some of the challenges we face on the Tyne, massively appreciated in my constituency.

constituency.
17:59
Joy Morrissey Portrait Joy Morrissey MP (Beaconsfield, Conservative)
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It's wonderful to follow the member Hexham who is also my Parliamentary twin as it were with our names being so similar. We often get confusing letters of correspondence, and he must love it as much as I do. So it's wonderful to follow him in this debate. The to follow him in this debate. The issue of sewage in our rivers is something that is of great concern to my constituents in Beaconsfield Mali and the South Bucks villages. And also to my Parliamentary twin over there.

In my constituency I've worked closely with local action groups in Little Marlow and Farnham common to secure a planned sewage upgrade for Little Marlow sewage treatment works through persistent lobbying, former Conservative minister's and now currently the ministers. And I have repeatedly called for criminal sanctions against water company executives for breaches of their duties. Either we said more needs to be done, in particular I want to urge the Minister to you again look at strengthening the protection for watersports.

Earlier this year, I proposed two amendments to the water special measures Bill. Want to introduce criminal sanctions for what company bosses who failed to report discharge and another to extend protections for watersports to match those for swimming waters. These are serious many of the changes needed to further strengthen our oversight of water companies and waterways. In my constituency we are reaching watersports along the Thames and in particular we have Marlow rowing club, Marlow Canoe club and the upper Thames sailing club, just to name three wonderful examples.

And in local schools regularly use the river for regularly use the river for The secondary schools are on the terms regularly, rowing, using it, and it would be wonderful to incorporate this into legislation to protect watersports.

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We have a wonderful river and my constituency and paddle boarding and constituency and paddle boarding and all sorts of wonderful things. Does all sorts of wonderful things. Does she not feel regret that the last government did not take the steps

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government did not take the steps that she is outliving now? I appreciate I've been lobbying for this for many years and I've for this for many years and I've been able to table my own amendments been able to table my own amendments in the style of the Liberal Democrats and I was happy to have the spokesperson support and speak in support of my amendments and that is great and I love the cross party support and am learning from the wonderful example of taking amendments forward when not in power and that is fun and it is enjoyable for us all.

In this spirit of that, I'm working my way they are Mark and I want to do watersports and to see this move forward in any way possible because it is important for rivers and aquatic sports and for watersports I want the same connection and I would like to see this discharge from emergency overflows blocked within a 1 mile radius and particularly with aquatic sports used for secondary schools and children.

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I thank my honourable friend for giving way and she's making a powerful speech about watersports. powerful speech about watersports. Does she agree that angling it is also important for our rivers. I met with anglers in Farnham and they were concerned about the effect of

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were concerned about the effect of pollution on angling stocks. Angling is an important sport

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Angling is an important sport that we should protect and make sure waterways are clean and one way to know that is by the aquatic life that comes back when the waterway is cleaned and clubs in my constituency would have had from those changes and protection and I hope the Minister will change his mind and adopt something similar to my amendment. Feel free to take credit and pretend it is your amendment or your changes but I would like to see this but forward.

Unfortunately, my proposals and amendments were not accepted but I will continue to press for them Liberal Democrats style at any opportunity I can because I believe they would be good because I believe they would be good for the UK and the waterways. I hope the government will look seriously again at protecting watersports and I would be delighted to work with the government or any party to develop the legislative steps required to do so. required to do so.
18:04
Matt Rodda Portrait Matt Rodda MP (Reading Central, Labour)
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I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate with Sutterlin. I declare my interest as I have close relatives who work in the water sector, although it assigns, not the water industry. -- Although it is in science. Our rivers have suffered from serious sewage pollution over many years and I'm pleased the government is taking action to address this terrible problem and they want to discuss it and raise important constituency matters. For too long, water companies have ignored the concerns of residents and they continue to pump sewage into rivers, lakes and seas.

Reading is badly affected because it is downstream and I strongly support the measures taken by the Water (Special Measures) Act which received Royal assent in February which includes top new penalties including imprisonment for executives when companies do not operate and it will also ban bonuses, notably, for CEOs and senior leaders unless high standards are met. Consumers must be protected and there must be financial resilience with the company. The act notably ensures each emergency sewage overflow outlet will be independently monitored and this is a great step forward I make it quicker and easier for our regulators to punish wrongdoing and the measures introduced will increase transparency by requiring water companies to publish real-time data for all emergency overflows and this is a clear and important step forward.

In addition, we heard earlier comment from the Select Committee about how the government has commissioned the Cunliffe Review which will look in much greater detail at how companies are held to account I look at a number of other matters. I'm conscious of time but want to read some local examples and so other related matters with the waterways. I have seen and spoken about this previously some appalling incidents including seeing a tributary of the Thames turn elder tributary of the Thames turn elder

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it green and it is ultimately flowing into the Thames. I thank my honourable friend for giving way and on Friday I will test the water quality in Christchurch the water quality in Christchurch Harbour because the water policy, Harbour because the water policy, I'm also concerned about the river. Does my honourable friend agree with me that the environment agency set me that the environment agency set higher standards for water quality and in so doing establish where areas are falling short and I know that he will have rivers he is

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that he will have rivers he is concerned about. I am grateful for his intervention. I would like to see further work carried out and he makes a good point about his river and there are a number of rivers and I was about to say how many of these flow through a heavily populated area and places where people enjoy walks by the river, as mentioned by the honourable member for Marlow and there are many activities and I've seen the way that sewage pollution can interfere with wildlife and in one case this was stark and appalling contrast between pollution appalling contrast between pollution pictures Rizal and the river -- between sewage which is visible in the river and the Kingfisher.

Of course I will give way.

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Like me, he will receive hundreds of emails on the performance of of emails on the performance of Thames Water. Does she agree that company should take this pill and company should take this pill and they have been put on notice and they have to improve standards.

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they have to improve standards. Right on cue. There are those of us who represent constituencies and us who represent constituencies and I don't want to criticise them but many people work in my constituency and there are a number of incidents including two incidents where water was cut off to the suburbs and residents are waiting for compensation. I put other incidents where a single has been created due to a water link. This is part of the wider issue and within the scope of the debate and residents will have to wait for concrete to be pumped into the Choc and I've seen a series into the Choc and I've seen a series of other issues.

-- chalk. Of course. course.
18:10
Pippa Heylings Portrait Pippa Heylings MP (South Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)
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The time limit has been reached. I would suggest that perhaps the honourable member for Reading might want to conclude his remarks before another intervention from Bournemouth.

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We welcome the Water (Special Measures) Act and we also urge the government to go further, particularly with regard to detection of chalk streams which is personal to me and many members across the House. I have campaigned for many years to stop the dumping of raw sewage and far better detection, alongside campaign organisations and the many local organisations and the many local river action groups including the river action groups including the builder hunts and some progress has been made.

For the section of the river which has secured much-needed much-needed finance and for the small sewage treatment plant in hazing field up the stream. Not all the chalk streams that we have can have bathing water designation as is the mechanism for protection, especially when they had to struggle and suffer with these overwhelm small sewage to networks that they have. As a result of the unprecedented housing growth and development in the area and that is why I bemoaned the fact that the Water (Special Measures) Act and the Planning and Infrastructure Bill do not get rid of the damaging automatic rate for developers which means water companies cannot say if they have the capacity to manage sewage in their area.



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You talk about overwhelmed sewage and in my constituency there has and in my constituency there has been 3000 hours of overflow into one been 3000 hours of overflow into one of our precious chalk streams. With of our precious chalk streams. With the honourable member agree that is why it is important we have the blue Flag status. These companies should not be taking this for granted.

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In my constituency of safe temperature, represent streams were polluted 778 times in 2034. That is a disgraceful legacy of the former government. We need the protection that honourable friend has mentioned. We bemoan the fact that the secretary of state and government got rid of the chalk stream recovery packed. That is distressing to all those who care for chalk streams and why we need practical measures such as the blue Flag status and for rivers and chalk streams in water catchments to have the kind of protection that they need.

This would give the public confidence in water quality and enable regular water testing, biodiversity checks, better community involvement, boosting transparency. transparency.

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Statistics published last week shows Welsh water had the highest number of sewage discharges despite number of sewage discharges despite charging some of the highest prices charging some of the highest prices in the country that has the lowest incomes in the UK. Will she agree with me that the Welsh government with me that the Welsh government should stop letting them off the should stop letting them off the hook and take responsibility for its actions? Check my honourable friend makes such a compelling argument for what is needed in terms of accountability in Wales.

We need better protection for chalk streams and unique habitats for nature and the Liberal Democrats will continue leading the fight against sewage scandal and continue standing up for Nick and for rivers, chalk streams, for us to enjoy them and for everyone and for future generations to come.
18:14
Claire Hazelgrove Portrait Claire Hazelgrove MP (Filton and Bradley Stoke, Labour)
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The future of rivers lakes and seas could not be more important and not just for our generation but future generations. After 14 years of Conservative failure to act, also propped up by the party opposite Hugh, the future was looking lost at sea and I'm proud that we are taking action through the new Water (Special Measures) Act, one of the first acts by the new Labour government. I know that this issue is hugely important to fill residents across my constituency.

Luckily, we care deeply -- locally we care deeply about the environment and the future we are forging and the rivers should not only be safe and healthy but enjoyable for all. Our new Liberal government inherited a broken bottle system with record levels being pumped into waterways in towns, villages, cities across the country and along the glorious coastline. This is impacted health, tourism, how we see places declining, unloved by the previous government. This labour government is taking action and will continue What I do find remarkable is how little was actually done, not talked about the done when both parties opposite were in government together.

Yet how willing they are to claim credit for the actions taken by this New Labour government while also confusingly seemingly trying to say that not very much is being done. They can't have it both ways. Our act has introduced new powers to ban the payment of unfair bonuses to water bosses who failed to protect our environment and to bring tough criminal charges against them personally if they break the law. The work of our dedicated ministers has also helped to open up over £100 billion in private sector investment to upgrade crumbling sewage infrastructure.

On top of all this, I was also glad to hear this active state announce independent water commission last autumn. This the Cunliffe commission is the largest review of the water sector since privatisation. It is worth mentioning that anyone can contribute their views to the commission until 11: 50 9 PM tonight, including people at home and the parties opposite. Indeed. Listening, acting and thinking of future generations is quite clearly a new government, and our Plan for Change will bring the infrastructure Britain needs to clean up our rivers, lakes and seas for good.

And I look forward to supporting this every step of the way.
18:17
Ellie Chowns Portrait Ellie Chowns MP (North Herefordshire, Green Party)
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I thank the honourable member for bringing this important debate today. And as this active state of things said we are all in furious agreement that the condition of our rivers, lakes and seas is an absolute scandal. I completely agree. It would of course as the Minister knows be remiss of me not to point out that it's not just due to sewage, as another colleague mentioned. Agricultural pollution is a key factor in the condition of our rivers, lakes and seas, and we cannot fix the problem without addressing both of those together, but the subject today is sewage, so I will focus on that.

Now the motion in front of us today, I'm not against introducing a blue flag system for rivers and streams, but to be honest, it is just tinkering around the edges of a broken system. A shortage of flags, targets is not the problem. Last year the Roman agency gave the water companies collectively a target of 40% reduction in sewage incidents. What did we have? A 30% increase. Monitoring and targets aren't enough if there is no meaningful action, no meaningful sanctions, and yet I understand that all the water companies have criminal convictions totalling well over 1,000 between them, some with over 100 convictions but they are still getting away with it.

And at the same time bills are going up through the roof by an average of over 20% in a single year, even more than that for constituents including my own. And yet it is the bill payers, not the share holders that are paying the cost. The financial cost in terms of the dividends to shareholders, the interest on loans, the privatised water and sewage companies... Just a moment, in England and Wales averaged 35% of company revenue from customer bills. That is customer bill money going to pay the financial costs of the water companies, whereas in the case of Scottish water, a publicly owned company which may have other problems but financially those costs amounted to just 80% of revenue from consumer bills.



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Grateful for the member in giving way. My constituency of Blackburn, way. My constituency of Blackburn, raw sewage discharge increased by 75% in 2023. Yet there are plans to 75% in 2023. Yet there are plans to raise bills by 32% in the following five years. What's clear is that the five years. What's clear is that the British public are being ripped off. All the member agree that whilst All the member agree that whilst Better Regulation and investment rules may fix some problems, the only way to solve this problem is to only way to solve this problem is to bring the water supply back into

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public ownership? Actively agree with the honourable member. That is precisely the thrust of my argument. Over the the thrust of my argument. Over the last three decades, shareholders have extracted £83 billion in have extracted £83 billion in dividends. They've invested effectively less than nothing because the share capital in because the share capital in retained earnings in those companies is now less than it was at privatisation. The capital privatisation. The capital investment has been taken out of customer bills, and yet customers are still paying through the nose.

Now a professor at the University of Greenwich, have his report here, has shown that the cost of the investment that are needed in the water industry would be much lower under public ownership than under private ownership, and yet the party opposite unfortunately is not willing to consider public ownership when it's clear that that is the only solution ultimately to have the control needed to ensure that this essential public utility works in the public benefit. Now the government has the power to bring failing companies back into special administration by the High Court but during the passage of the special water measures Bill, they said it must be a last resort as it has significant consequences for a company's investors.

This speaks volumes about who the government thinks our water industry is for. It is not for these so-called investors. Actually extractors, which have taken out so many dividends paid for by debt or neglecting our infrastructure and killing our waterways with sewage. They should be significant consequences for them. The people of this country, the British people don't want that water investable. They want a clean, reliable, affordable. And in public hands. affordable. And in public hands. Public ownership is the key element of the solution to the sewage scandal.

scandal.
18:22
Perran Moon Portrait Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)
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As hard as it may be to believe, on Saturday I went surfing. At with Ian Beach, a beach well known to the honourable member from St Ives in my constituency. I was invited to surf with the wave project, a national program offering children with mental health challenges the chance to use the power of the ocean to lift spirits, build their confidence, and chase away some Demons. It was an incredibly rewarding experience overall, even for someone whose surfing skills were last on show over 30 years ago.

But what was really sad was that when we arrived, I was informed that the only place that we could use was on the western edge of the beach. The rest of the beach was too polluted with sewage. Across the central and western area of Cornwall, 10% of all of the wave projects sessions have to be cancelled due to sewage pollution. All along the north coast of my constituency, in Portree, Porth Taiwan, Heron Porth, Saint Agnes, which is the location of the head office of Surfers Against Sewage, we are regularly polluted.

According to the Commons Library, in 2024 there were 142 spills at Portree's, lasting over 2.5 thousand hours. In total there were 975 spills last year in the Camborne Redruth and Hale constituency, lasting for an estimated 8847 hours. These numbers are shocking to me and my constituents, who have a right to clean bathing and a safe natural environment. However I'm delighted that this government is taking action three new tougher penalties for what executives, a ban on bonuses for senior leadership, failing to meet standards, mandatory monitoring and reporting and a model for cost recovery to better resource the Environment Agency whose funding was slashed under the Tories.

While many discharges still go unpunished, we are acting to clean up the Conservatives foul stinking mess while the Liberal Democrats carp from the sidelines, making cheap but transparent pre-local election political points, stating the blindingly obvious as though it were some sort of political revelation. And the indignation of a party that has never had to worry about actually making government policy. And it is under the Labour government that the Conservatives government that the Conservatives sewage scandal will end.

sewage scandal will end.
18:25
Calum Miller Portrait Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)
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I would like to thank my honourable friend for Westmorland & Lonsdale for leading this debate for the liberal Democrats. I refer the House to my declaration of interest as an officeholder in the water APG. It is one day short of nine months since the first Prime Minister's Questions of this Parliament. And on that day was my privilege to pose the premise to his first question, and I asked him about the levels of sewage being pumped by Thames water into the river in my constituency.

He said customer should not pay the price for mismanagement by water companies, and he added it. This government to fix the mess of that failure. And yet, since that date Thames water has pumped sewage into Thames water has pumped sewage into the even load for a further 1050 hours while Thames water has hiked bills to my constituents by over 30% on 1 April. So I regret that I cannot see the plan put forward by the government is yet working, and I urge you to work with we Liberal Democrats to go further and faster.

The problem is that pumping sewage into our rivers and waterways is now routine. Indeed it is so routine that it happens even when there has been no excess rainwater or storms. On the river rate for example, there were 7.5 hours on 9 April when there was no rain that day nor had there been in the previous week. The single dry spilling shows that the regular three arrangements are a joke. My constituents were shocked to learn from the Freedom of Information request that Ofwat had not issued a single fine to what companies the management of sewage treatment since 2021.

In the last year, I have joined local residents and campaigners to participate in citizen science projects with even load catchment projects and river watched a look at the quality of our water. On every measure, the rivers even load rate and chair well are significantly contaminated, and yet at the same time the terms what is failing its domestic customers in my constituency. These include Mark Hamilton and Garden City Kidlington who purchased pumps to try to keep sewage out of his and his elderly neighbour's home, but they were not enough.

Or Colin Fletcher and Leighton who had sewage flooded into his garden in September and still awaits a repair from Thames Water or brass in Chesterton who saw sewage lap against House walls and was left with faeces and toilet paper in her garden when the water receded. Martin Johnson who could not uses toilet as it routinely overflowed into his home with sewage and now has a tanker station next to his House loudly pumping 24 seven while Thames water takes months to agree a sewer repair.

In short, we have a company that pollutes our rivers and waterways and the homes and gardens of its customers while all the time rewarding handsomely its executives and spending an increasing share of bill payers money to service excessive debt. The premise to told me his government would fix this mess but I regret that the water special measures bill does not gain any far enough. We need a powerful affective and public clean water authority to clean up the water

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companies act. I'd like to thank the honourable member for Westmorland & Lonsdale
18:28
Jon Pearce Portrait Jon Pearce MP (High Peak, Labour)
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member for Westmorland & Lonsdale for bringing this debate. I thought it might be helpful to give some context to the debate. And it doesn't start with the 14 years of failure of the last Conservative government that we've heard so much about. I actually want to talk about the 1980s where gripped by ideological fervour rather than the national interest, the Thatcher and major governments set off on a sales binge of our strategic assets and infrastructure, leaving us all these years later almost uniquely exposed to global events amongst the G7.

Only two weeks ago, this Government recalled Parliament to save British steel, a vital strategic asset, not just for our economy of our security and our defence. The Conservatives fragmented British Rail, which this government is now taking back into public control piece by piece. And most prescient to today's debate, they privatised our water, not into a market of competing firms but into a private monopoly, shielded from scrutiny and driven by dividends. In selling off the family silver, those governments wreaked havoc on our public services.

But being generous to those governments, at least they had a vision which is more than can be said of the last 14 years of the Conservatives. For 14 years the Conservatives were asleep at the wheel and sadly for five of those years, the Lib Dems were snoring away quite happily in the passenger seat. While raw sewage poured into our rivers, the Lib Dems and the Conservatives allowed cash to pour into the pockets of the wealthy, through shareholder payouts and executive bonuses. The environment agency cried out for resources, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems cut its funding by half.

So what was the consequence? Well in high peak, we saw just before the election, 1653 times sewage pumped into our rivers. That's into the River Wye com the river F-3, the river no, the River Derwent and Blackberry, equating to a sewage spill every five hours. This is a damning indictment on the failures of successive governments. By contrast, this Labour government has passed the water special measures act with criminal liability now for company executives who obstruct investigations.

We found their bonuses, and we've given regulators the power to recover the cost of enforcement, ensuring polluters, not taxpayers foot the bill and with mandated real-time This is only the start. Wider reform This is only the start. Wider reform is needed. That is why we have launched the widest review since launched the widest review since privatisation. We know the challenge, to halt the decline. We challenge, to halt the decline. We are the only party with a serious plan to do so.

plan to do so.
18:31
Edward Morello Portrait Edward Morello MP (West Dorset, Liberal Democrat)
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In west Dorset, we are proud of the natural environment but it is undermined by the relentless dumping of raw sewage. There were 4196 sewage spills in west Dorset across the rivers and coastlines, adding up to 48,000 hours of raw sewage discharge. In 2019, just four of the 36 bodies were rated as having good ecological status and while this happened the executives have paid themselves £51 million in bonuses. Communities paid the price. The economy relies heavily on tourism.

It brought in over £300 million to the local area and supported thousands of jobs.

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I thank my honourable friend for a giving way. Chichester has the a giving way. Chichester has the largest boating harbour in Europe and the damage being done to the ecosystem is stark. 105 pharmaceuticals, pesticides and pharmaceuticals, pesticides and recreational drugs were found in the recreational drugs were found in the water. Does the honourable member agree that tourism for areas like his and mine are incredibly important and we must have clean water to deliver it.

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5200 jobs in West Dorset, hundreds of families who come to hundreds of families who come to areas like this and any one of the numerous beautiful towns and numerous beautiful towns and villages that they have but how can those visitors do that with those visitors do that with confidence when there is a real risk of sewage warnings at the beach and residents and tourists alike have to check and apt to see if water is safe. We have some rare chalk streams and they are home to delicate ecosystems and many species which are worrying decline.

Even when new forms are built, water companies do not have to be formally consulted and making them part of these new developments is basic common sense and would mean proper planning and accountability and the chance to avoid more pressure on the Failing. We want water companies to take responsibility and reinvest in the communities they have neglected. Calling for the introduction of blue Flag status, just like we have for cheese and it would mean clear standards and proper testing and consequences when companies fall short and it would help the public to understand when a river is clean and safe and not just when it is tested.

We would welcome the speeding ticket finds and the automatic penalties proper companies break rules but the fines must be ring fenced and go straight into the affected communities and places like west Dorset to fix infrastructure, restore the habitat, and we need action, proper regulation.

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I thank the Secretary of State for the opening remarks and the speed at which the government is
18:34
Amanda Hack Portrait Amanda Hack MP (North West Leicestershire, Labour)
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speed at which the government is implementing vital changes. An opportunity to speak again on an issue that matters to my constituents and I. It's featured in many discussions on the doorstep and was a personal pledge to the community and will continue to be so until the improvements from the Water (Special Measures) Act bill of health. I regularly check in with those affected by sewage outflows and I know how much this impacts them on a daily basis and I know how long it has taken for some of these issues to resolve.

The sewage case in my constituency recently ended with an enforcement undertaking on the Rivers Trust of £600,000 which will support restoration of the habitat and natural environment. It took two years to get here and that is the outcome of the significant spill and that has been unsurprising spill and that has been unsurprising because since 2010, the budget of the environment agency was cut in half, leaving them without necessary tools to fight theirs. I have said this before in this House and I will say it again and the sewage poured in for 15,000 hours and that was an increase of 54% from previous years.

What a legacy and still the Liberal Democrats voted against the special measures bill which will provide the largest investment in the infrastructure in the history and ban the bonuses on water policies and it will help to clean up rivers, lakes, and seas. Labour are fixing this mess and I was proud to sit on the committee and even prouder to vote for the bill and it is just the start and the government has commissioned Sir Jon Cunliffe to overtake review of the sector and if you are quick you can get a response to date.

He was asked to undertake the review and he said his first job in the civil service 45 years ago, he worked on the industrial pollution of water and this was a

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time when the UK was generally... Will my honourable friend give way? I thank my honourable friend for a giving way. I am a neighbour for a giving way. I am a neighbour of hers. She will now that there was a reward of £80 million for the a reward of £80 million for the quality of the plan but in service against sewage, the water quality against sewage, the water quality report said it failed to meet targets every year in the period and despite this, the plan has been despite this, the plan has been reported £93 million.

Does she agree it is vital Stoke-on-Trent which it is vital Stoke-on-Trent which serves both constituents as properly had to account in this period?

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I thank my honourable friend for the intervention. This company the intervention. This company serves both of our communities and they have got to do their bit to they have got to do their bit to clean up waterways. I was a child of the 1980s and grew up by the seaside the 1980s and grew up by the seaside and a member of the impact polluted seas had on the local community. I seas had on the local community. I saw the changes that were made and I look back to that place where our look back to that place where our families cannot enjoy the waterways and after 14 years, our communities are devastated by water policy.

I was proud to vote for a bill which will bring criminal charges against persistent lawbreakers. I was proud to vote for independent monitoring of every outlet ensuring unprecedented transparency to hold the bosses to account and that is the difference we can make and I am proud to help to make it. proud to help to make it.
18:38
Alison Griffiths Portrait Alison Griffiths MP (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton, Conservative)
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I am pleased to speak here today to bring the attention of this House to my constituents in Littlehampton on the continuing discharge of raw on the continuing discharge of raw sewage into the sea. We saw 529 such discharges in 2024 from just 14 storm oak floor points and these had a combined duration of over 6200 hours and it is not acceptable and it pauses theory is that to public health and the environment and also local tourism and the marine economy which so many in my constituency depend upon.

We must act decisively to improve the ageing water infrastructure and enforce stricter regulations and demand transparency from water companies, Ofwat, and the environment agency.

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And grateful she mentions Ofwat.

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And grateful she mentions Ofwat. The recommended penalties for four The recommended penalties for four companies last August and that came to £160 billion. So far, not one to £160 billion. So far, not one penny has been actually collected by

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penny has been actually collected by Ofwat. Does she agree Ofwat needs to be scrapped? I don't agree with your

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I don't agree with your diagnosis. I agree that the funds need to be collected and need to be collected and distributed. And so, just moving on, the other issue that has been identified in my constituency, and I imagine it is a wider issue, is that of illegal missed connection and cowboy builders and we must introduce crackdowns that address those issues because without addressing that, we will not get the addressing that, we will not get the results that we need an constituents need to know what is being done to stop them.

Since being elected, I had constructive engagement with the environment agency and Southern water, with the legal team and head office. I did a shift with the missed connections team in Bognor Regis and I know that there is work being done to a pretty network but this issue requires a strategic approach across the agencies, one that considers the serious impact on flood resilience and sewage discharges over the continuous pursuit of housebuilding in the floods. When schools in my floods.

When schools in my constituency are taking children to constituency are taking children to the beach and being told they cannot swim in the sea, it is not just disappointing but disgraceful and not the legacy that we want to leave not the legacy that we want to leave the next generation.
18:41
Charlie Maynard Portrait Charlie Maynard MP (Witney, Liberal Democrat)
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Which brings us to the front bench contributions. Charlie

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Maynard. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm delighted to speak on the issue of fixing the broken water and sewage sector today. I thank my honourable friend for bringing this honourable friend for bringing this to bed. My constituency of Whitley to bed. My constituency of Whitley has borne the brunt of the sewage scandal and many rivers are flowing scandal and many rivers are flowing through including the Thames and the even rush and they are all even rush and they are all frequently polluted.

I welcome the calls from colleagues to introduce new blue Flag status to guarantee the river is cool enough to swim and which would help restore confidence in swimming and also it would make it a fantastic result and generations of people can no longer swim there. We now know what a car crash the sewage network is and that is thanks to so many campaigners who have gone to so much trouble on their own time and often their own money to bring this to our attention money to bring this to our attention and at the top of that is WASP which is Windrush against sewage problems and they have worked tirelessly to deal with what is going on and we have done so much to bring this to national attention and we all them all a huge debt of gratitude.

I will focus today on regulation and specifically the failures of Ofwat and they are responsible for holding water companies accountable against the terms of the operating licence and DEFRA has oversight over Ofwat and set the policy framework and provide strategic guidance to Ofwat on key environmental and social policies. Ofwat is clearly failing on pollution and the environment agency shows that in 2024 there was discharge of almost 300,000, 50% up on the 2023 sewage dumping upper hundred 96,000 and that is well known.

Of what is failing to enforce financial viability. Thames water, which serves my constituency, just like every other what a company in the country has to have two credit ratings and has not had that for nearly one year now. It has been beaten with limp celery but that is about it. It has 19 buildings headed towards £23 billion of debt and it has cash flow of just £1.2 billion. That makes no financial sense but Thames Water is allowed to breach the rule with impunity and no doubt other water companies and companies in other sectors take note of what has been allowed by them and says they can cross the line in water and in other regulated sectors.

How is that good news? It introduces a moral hazard which does damage to the country. And who should pay the cost of this debt? It is the bill payers. Of what provide value for money. As per 1991, they have a statutory duty to protect the interests of consumers and protect the economy and efficiency on the part of water companies. As the recent note from WASP published, the cost and what companies are extraordinary and in some cases they are higher than those in comparative companies in countries such as the USA and Denmark.

Why is this? Why is this being a low to happen? Why are our costs greater? Is it because the pricing model is based off asset values and gives an incentive to water companies to boost asset bases? They do this by extraordinary long depreciation periods of network assets such as pipes which were installed 50 years ago and there are some depreciation of 100 years and it gives them an incentive to pour expensive concrete. Why is it that something that you can build and Denmark costs eight times the price of a here? Why has it gone from £40 million to more than £400 million in terms of what has been spent in the last four years? What sort of last four years? What sort of What company's have requirement to provide fairness to customers.

Water company's have been allowed to hike bills this year in the case of Thames water, some with 50 or 70%, some more than 90%. And what are they getting for that? This is not fair when more than 1/4 of the bills in Thames Water's case are just paying the interest. Not paying down the debt, but just paying the interest. So Ofwat is continuing to allow the profits of water company creditors to be maligned at the expense of ordinary households.

-- Lined. Then Ofwat fails to be awake, software has a responsibility, and bear with me on this, for tracking you with the ultimate controllers of the water companies. Should be pretty simple. Who owns the water companies? Just interact with that for that there are many of them. In Thames Water's case they are taking wilful ignorance to an extreme of utterly determined ignorance. Thames Water's largest shareholder its stake down to zero in last May. In full its directors of the board last May.

I got a letter from Ofwat last month saying this has been widely reported in the press, this is not secret, yet I got a letter from Ofwat confirming that no, they believe that owners are still the ultimate control of the company. Why is Ofwat ignoring this? What's the matter? Well, by being the ultimate control of the company it means that you've got certain responsibilities. Now those responsibilities are just being ignored, and Ofwat, who is exactly the person who is supposed to be holding them to account, is hiding under a stone somewhere.

They

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need to stop doing this. He says that Ofwat has failed to regulate the water system effectively, failing on environmental, public health and environmental, public health and financial interests. In my constituency of Glastonbury and Somerton, Wessex water is leaking over 400,000 hours of sewage just over 400,000 hours of sewage just last year alone, so do they agree with me that the water regulator should be replaced with a clean water authority, which would bring

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water authority, which would bring environmental and financial regulation of water companies together? I thank her. Ofwat is also failing to innovate. So Ofwat also appears to do little if anything to push companies to do this. This is so critical because if we are going to increase the capacity of treatment works, there are many better ways of doing that, a host of new technologies out there from the detection, pipeline monitoring and predictive maintenance equipment in trenchless pipe repair and pressure management technologies.

I've heard from firms round my constituency it's easier to sell sewer technology solutions into the US and Europe than it is into the UK. This is where the issue with the dire state of finances of water companies and the sewage scandal intersect because of course companies cannot make basic payers, let alone properly innovate and approve when so -- so much of their revenues going out of the door in interest payments. The previous governor has got a lot to answer for. It was on their watch that sewage dumping in our rivers and lakes reached record levels while water comes powered up billions in debt and all the while bosses rewarded themselves for mismanagement and failure on semi levels with generous bonuses.

And many people working in these companies that worked so hard There's only so much point in looking backwards. What am appalled by is that this new government who came into power and promise to get tough with water companies and sort out the scandal have so far shown themselves to be just about as tough as Ofwat. Your water special measures act which was not voted on by the way, member for North West Leicestershire by us, it was just not voted, was to pay just about nothing.

Union Conservative Party members rejected a host of common

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sense steps in the bill which proposed an amendment which could have made the bill generally impactful. I will give some examples. I just like to... Order. Suggest

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I just like to... Order. Suggest that the honourable gentleman is
18:51
Emma Hardy Portrait Emma Hardy MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
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that the honourable gentleman is absolutely bringing his remarks to a close rather than giving some examples because we don't hear from the Minister. I will make that three. Thank you. And over to you.

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Over to her. Minister Emma Harding. Thank you. And can I say you were

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Thank you. And can I say you were doing an incredibly awesome job being in the chair during this being in the chair during this debate. I'd like to thank if I can debate. I'd like to thank if I can say my honourable friend them for Westmorland & Lonsdale for bringing forward this debate on the liberal Democrats, and I'm really glad to have this opportunity to close this have this opportunity to close this important debate. I'd like to pay tribute for me to all environmental tribute for me to all environmental groups, although citizen scientists, all those people involved in campaigning on this important issue up and down the country.

And as well, to the people who work within well, to the people who work within the water industry will stop the people who have to go out and deal with the sewage overflows, people working on the frontline, the people facing sometimes appalling levels of abuse for doing the job they do. I'd like to pay tribute to them and thank them as well. And a welcome engagement we've had across the House on the water commission because as we've heard, sewage spilling into our rivers, lakes and seas is a national disgrace.

The result of years of underinvestment by the Conservatives. They left us with crumbling water infrastructure and a broken water system. Instead of fixing a water system, the water companies used customer money to pay out unjustifiable bonuses to their polluting bosses and shareholders. We will never let that happen. This Labour government is turning the tide on sewage once and for all. And this isn't just words. In this debate we set out exactly how we are going to be doing that.

Within days of coming to office we ring fenced money, earmarked for investment in water in the structure so we cannot be diverted from bonuses or dividends, and where this money is not spent, it will be returned to

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customers. Then our landmark... You will remember that I raised with her recently concerns brought to me by Staffordshire wildlife trust regarding the fines issued to trust regarding the fines issued to seven Trent water on 20 24th of their huge sewage leak in my constituency of Stoke-on-Trent South constituency of Stoke-on-Trent South in Strangford. Would you agree with me that the water special measures bill will indeed make water companies pay for the damage they have caused and it's just the start have caused and it's just the start of this governments work to clean up

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our waterways? She's quite right. The water special measures bill is a landmark special measures bill is a landmark piece of legislation but it is of course just the start of some of the things we want to achieve. And it will give Ofwat new powers to ban unfair bonuses, will introduce stricter penalties including imprisonment, including severe -- fines, and mandatory reporting of emergency overflows, but we don't just want to give you that. We are going to give you so much more than that.

More and more. Thank you. We are going to go even further with the independent water commission because as we have heard from honourable members across the House, of course that's not the extent of the ambition of this government. Sir Jon Cunliffe is currently undertaking the biggest review of the water sector since privatisation. He will be making recommendations to deliver long-term benefits, restore water bodies to good health, provide a reliable and efficient supply of water in changing climate and ultimately serve both customers and the environment.

This independent commission will look to reset the water industry and tackle systematic misuse to fundamentally transform the sector. These recommendations will form the basis of federal legislation and am already anticipating the amendments from the party opposite to attract the long- term investment and clean up our rivers, lakes and seas for good. But in addition to these measures, Ofwat have announced hundred and £4 billion of private sector investment in the water sector over the next in the water sector over the next five years.

This will build and upgrade water infrastructure in every region of the country, cutting sewage spills, improving water quality and giving us a reliable future water supply. It will also create tens of thousands of jobs around the country, help us build our 1.5 million homes, support major industry projects and power new industries. This is regional economic growth in action, the cornerstone of our plans change. Returning to the contributions from my honourable friends, my honourable friend them The Earl of Shrewsbury who was a champion in her community and is raised with me her concerns around flooding as well as around water pollution, highlighted the importance of the polluter pays principle, and how money can be returned through to the environ agency and of course I share her love of suds.

I thank the four Monmouthshire on her work on special measures bill and her kind and persistent way she has lobbied me about the River Wye. Always so gently. Lobbying with such a smile upon her face, every time she saw me about the River Wye, which is why I was so pleased that the debtor and Welsh government were able to give the £1 million to research to understand pollution and the other pressures and develop a plan to tackle the issues in the catchment area for top and my honourable friend from Northumbria, there he is over there, testing my eyesight this evening, my honourable friend the Minister for nature is happy to go Minister for nature is happy to go and visit him.

And to see what he is doing up there and looking as well at the work he is doing on cleaning up in his area. And the honourable member Beaconsfield sadly not in her place... You are there. This is testing me. This is again the eyesight testing. It's all confusing me. I hope she is seen and welcomed the changes that we have done with bathing waters when the definition of a bather and how that definition of a bather could include as well people involved in watersports, and that something she might be interested in.

I write only because I have three minutes into have to sit down. My honourable friend the Member for Reading Central thanks again for the support of the water special measures the commission of the highlighting the impact that pollution has upon wildlife and the importance of cleaning up our rivers. And my honourable friend thanking again for the work, the support for the water special measures bill, and he is right to highlight the awful inheritance and the action we've taken. My honourable friend the Member for Camborne & Redruth talked about the wave project from supporting mental health really keen to hear about that project.

And I commend everyone involved in that their work on that. It sounds like a wonderful... He will hear me by osmosis. My honourable friend the member High Peak highlighting that this has consequences indeed they do, and slashing the environment agency's budget behalf has certainly had a consequence. And the honourable member of North West Leicestershire, thank again for the work and support in the special measures bill and the championing the deep cleaning up our water and of course I also love being by the seaside, that's what I have to say, I'm so delighted that our Canada hole and East Yorkshire is champion a plan to provide free bus services to the coastal areas during the summer holidays so people can enjoy the countryside.

Vote Labour. So we have reset the water sector, we are stopping the sewage scandal and transforming the what industry from one of decline to one of opportunity. We are seizing the opportunity to restore national pride in our rivers, lakes and seas pride in our rivers, lakes and seas and secure reliable water future supply for all. We are delivering our Plan for Change to create a better future for our country.
18:58
None Portrait Division
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The question is that the original words stand part of the question. As many as are of that opinion, say, As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The The question The question is The question is that The question is that the The question is that the original words stand part of the question. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The tellers for the ayes are Will Forster and Bobby Dean.

The tellers for the noes, Christian Wakeford and

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Lock Lock the Lock the doors.

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Order, Order, order.

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Order, order. Order, order. The Order, order. The ayes Order, order. The ayes to Order, order. The ayes to the

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Order, order. The ayes to the

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right, 77. The noes to the left, The ayes to the right, 77. The noes to the left, 302. The North have it. The noes have it. The That the proposed words be there added. As many as of that opinion, say, "Aye." Of the contrary say, say, "Aye." Of the contrary say, The The question The question is The question is that The question is that the The question is that the proposed words be there added.

As many as of that opinion, say, "Aye." Of the country, say, "No." The tellers for

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Lock Lock the Lock the doors.

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Order Order order.

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Order order. Ayes to the right, 301. The noes to the left, 69.
19:24
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19:27
None Portrait Adjournment: Pension funds
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Petition, Windsor Post Office.
19:28
Manuela Perteghella Portrait Manuela Perteghella MP (Stratford-on-Avon, Liberal Democrat)
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I beg to move this House do now adjourn. do now adjourn.

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Thank you. Pension funds hold not just financial value but moral just financial value but moral weight. How we treat our pensioners and invest in the future of the and invest in the future of the hard-working people of this country says everything about the kind of society we are. This evening I want society we are. This evening I want to bring to the House attention one of the most concerning injustices faced by thousands of former HSBC employees, particularly women employees, particularly women through the use of an outdated punitive policy known as pension clawback.

I support the Midland global campaign, which seeks justice for the 51,000 affected members of the Midland Bank pension scheme now administered by HSBC. They were misled about the nature of their retirement income and are now being shortchanged as a result. Unlike most institutions which phase-out in the 1980s, HSBC continues to enforce it in its most punitive form. Clawback was originally introduced in 1948 to offset national insurance costs when the State Pension was created. And Midland Bank introduced clawback to its pension scheme in 1975 as a cost saving measure.

Former employees were told they would receive the following benefit pension, two thirds of their salary in addition to their state pension. Instead when you reach state pension age, HSBC began deducting a portion of their occupation and pension,

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calling it a state deduction. I have a constituent who has worked 44 years the Midland Bank and HSBC, was promised a two thirds final salary pension and is now final salary pension and is now facing the 16% cut, and that's over facing the 16% cut, and that's over £1700 per annum due to this so- called state deduction. Never told that the scheme was introduced and that the scheme was introduced and even private pension failed to even private pension failed to explain it.

Does she agree that this lack of transparency is unacceptable and workers like her deserve

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answers? Absolutely. I fully agree. It's

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Absolutely. I fully agree. It's misleading. It is not being taken by the state. It actually goes back to the state. It actually goes back to HSBC. So had it been labelled properly, such as integrated pension deduction, many would have asked deduction, many would have asked

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deduction, many would have asked I thank my honourable friend for giving way and prosecuting the giving way and prosecuting the debate. A constituent of mine is trying to obtain her full HSBC pension but because of a clawback deduction which is no alignment to her salary, she is losing out on £244 each month. This is obviously unfair and has plunged many pensioners into poverty. Does my honourable friend agree that the ministry to seriously consider what support is available for people like Sue who have been left with significant financial difficulties.



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I thank my honourable friend. I

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I thank my honourable friend. I will discuss taking action later on. I thank the honourable ready for

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I thank the honourable ready for giving way. The clawback policy would see my constituents lose £2000 would see my constituents lose £2000 a year from their pensions when they reach state pension age. They believe this is unfair and morally believe this is unfair and morally questionable approach. She agreed that this cannot be the right approach and that they need to

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reconsider? The lack of transparency allowed

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The lack of transparency allowed this policy to persist under the radar but the formula used is regressive and unfair. For a start, the deduction is based on the fuel state pension rate one year before retirement, not salary, but state pension received and then it gets divided and then multiplied by jeers divided and then multiplied by jeers worked and the result, the...

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I thank you very much for giving way. The former Midland Bank and HSBC workers had a defined pension HSBC workers had a defined pension and the deductions to take account and the deductions to take account of the payment and these have now of the payment and these have now linked to salary or pension received and there are lower earning staff members, mostly women, particularly impacted and this includes my constituent. Does the honourable member agree that this inequality member agree that this inequality must finally be realised and pension clawbacks must be abolished for all.



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I thank the honourable member. This practice must be abolished. Women historically occupy these roles at HSBC and there are roles at HSBC and there are different rates for children, elderly parents, and they have been placed on new contracts with clawback attached without being told clawback attached without being told the implications for pension rights. the implications for pension rights. HSBC claims there is no discrimination because the policy applies to all but it is defined as a policy which appears neutral but is proportionately harmful for a

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particular group. I will give way. I thank the honourable member for giving way. If you are constituent giving way. If you are constituent of mine in Scarborough could be who has worked for -- Scarborough has worked for -- Scarborough Whitby. They have seen their pension just by entering £50 per year due to just by entering £50 per year due to a clawback clause they were never properly informed about. -- By 850 AD pounds per year. With the honourable member agree with me that honourable member agree with me that HSBC needs to engage properly with the affected people?

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Absolutely. I have a message for HSBC later on in my debate. Campaigners presented evidence including research from the University of Exeter showing this University of Exeter showing this proportionately affected women and underpaid staff. Policymakers, us, underpaid staff. Policymakers, us, have been asked to consider the suitability of the provisions which have not been available to members of the post-1974 Midland Pension of the post-1974 Midland Pension Scheme. This Is Referred to the Equality & Human Rights Commission and the DWP and the Qualities Office of the government, and when this happened they were referred to pillar to post.

Let us not forget the HSBC pension fund currently stands at £4.1 billion in surplus after a liabilities. The estimated cost of ending the clawback, £450 million. HSBC has the resources that it lacks the will. I will.

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My constituent in Wellington, Mike, has seen his pension go down Mike, has seen his pension go down in value by 13% because of the failure of HSBC to honour failure of HSBC to honour obligations and he tells me that the obligations and he tells me that the taxpayer is going to make up some of his income as a result. Isn't it totally wrong given the level of profit my honourable friend has profit my honourable friend has revealed that the taxpayer is bearing the burden of obligation, a bearing the burden of obligation, a charge that they should be paying themselves.

themselves.

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It is unfair. Absolutely, we must ensure HSBC is held accountable. In correspondence with MPs, the bank states because clawback is lawful, it is acceptable. I would say lawful does not mean just and this does not mean just and this Parliament has the duty to act. We need to modernise pension need to modernise pension legislation to ensure it reflects today's values of fairness, today's values of fairness, transparency, equality. After the WASPI pension injustice, we must be alert to other pension scandals.



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I commend the honourable lady for bringing this forward and this is an bringing this forward and this is an indication of the interest she has created with the adjournment debate so well done to her. There are an so well done to her. There are an estimated 12.95 million in this year and the WASPI women have been hard and the WASPI women have been hard done by. There is an absolute onus on all of us to ensure that engine funds are profitable and sustainable funds are profitable and sustainable and so does the honourable ready agree that we must ensure state pensions can catch up.

There is such a thing as state pensions for 40-

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year-olds today who are paying And they must receive one when it comes to your time. I thank the honourable member for raising these important issues. Absolutely, we must make sure Absolutely, we must make sure governments are long-term outlook to governments are long-term outlook to ensure that the hard-working British people of today are able to retire on a comfortable pension. Also, let on a comfortable pension. Also, let me tell you, many constituents have me tell you, many constituents have written to me about pension schemes including former police officers and people with occupational pensions which are not protected from

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inflation. On that point, but the honourable

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On that point, but the honourable member give way? I'm grateful to the honourable member for giving way. Kerry, one of my constituents, worked for a large multinational worked for a large multinational He spent his pension contributions from before 1997 decoupled from inflation and that means receiving inflation and that means receiving city depends on have been gradually eaten away and he finds himself in increasing levels of destitution. I'm grateful to the honourable member for calling this debate and I asked the Minister to look at this issue with the seriousness it requires.

It cannot be right that pensioners in our country are suffering as a consequence of decisions made by multinational companies who remain hugely profitable. This is an issue with a particular geography because so many multinational companies are involved.

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I thank my honourable friend for bringing this important point. We bringing this important point. We need legal reform to ensure pensions and payments are finally broached and payments are finally broached under the protection of equality law and we also need greater transparency from pension providers, transparency from pension providers, especially those entrusted with retirement futures of hard-working retirement futures of hard-working people. HSBC clawback policy is discriminatory in its impact, misleading in its language and misleading in its language and fundamentally unjust in its effects.

I actually minister to bring forward legislation to put an end to this outdated practice and finally stand up for those whose voices have been unheard for too long. Clawback is just one part of a broken pension system and we must also ask where are pension funds are invested and what future we are buying with the money.

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I am grateful to my honourable friend for making the case for friend for making the case for change as she is doing so well and she talks about the investments that the pension funds are investing and the pension funds are investing and many clients were big public pension funds until recently and I served as a trustee of one of the largest a trustee of one of the largest funds and one thing they got in touch with me about was where it was going.

Was it being used to fund going. Was it being used to fund fossil fuel extraction or some unsavoury regimes. That's my honourable friend agree that pensioners should have more power to have a say in what goes on with their money? their money?

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I fully agree. It's important

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I fully agree. It's important that pensioners reflect this and pensioners have a voice and it's not pensioners have a voice and it's not only good enough and whether it is only good enough and whether it is the way that fans are clawed back from Lopid pensioners of the way that they are funnelled into destructive emission industries, the system is set for reform. Billions
19:41
Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell MP, The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Swansea West, Labour)
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system is set for reform. Billions of pounds of local government schemes are invested in fossil fuels and industries that drive deforestation, loss of biodiversity, wildlife extinction. In conclusion, if we are to build a just and sustainable future then we must be a just and sustainable pension system and it must be the case for the

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planet and generations to come. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Everyone deserves a secure retirement. For many, the retirement. For many, the occupational pension is a central part of that and people have spent part of that and people have spent years paying into a pension scheme and it matters to all of us we get a decent pension out in terms of decent pension out in terms of decent pension out in terms of adequate to needs and in terms of providing the benefits people were promised.

I'm pleased the honourable member has secured this debate and has spoken so well during it on a topic deeply relevant to all of our topic deeply relevant to all of our constituents. All of us after all our pensioners are planning on becoming pensioners at some point and I would like to begin by thanking her and everyone who has thanking her and everyone who has spoken during her speech. We have talked about a wide range of issues relevant to different schemes and I will not comment in great detail about specific pension schemes, although I am sure specific employers will have heard the By all honourable members this evening.

I want to respond in more general terms to the point is that she and others have raised because the Member for Stratford-upon-Avon raised the issue with the sometimes called clawback schemes and I appreciate these could be controversial thanks to a change in private pension income involved in all of us sympathise with anyone who expected a straightforward income increased to kick in only to find things we are more complicated. I have read and listen to representation on this issue myself, as with defined benefit schemes.

Integrity schemes are required to pay out the full value to each member as set out in the scheme laws and that provide certainty, security, and the basis for savers to build retirement lands. Integrating occupational pension schemes with the state pension was a core design of some schemes and that It used to be a common feature and covered almost half of the schemes. That is partly for some of the reasons the honourable that he has set out the original aim was to set out a smooth level of income throughout the time before the state pension age was reached with a higher amount of occupational pension being paid, followed by a reduction in the occupational pension where the member receives the state pension.

The amount of the reduction is required to be set out in the pension scheme rules and it is therefore important that the rules are clearly communicated to those involved, as my honourable friend has made clear. While the aims of integrated pensions are clear, it be a big shock to anyone to CVR occupational pension -- to see the occupational pension reduce. The government places great importance on this clear communication because without it no one can plan properly for the future.

All schemes are required by law to provide the remember with this information about the scheme, either before the joint or very shortly afterwards and that includes an explanation of the contributions in the case of some of the schemes mentioned today on the employer side only and also how benefits are calculated with the integrated clawback mechanisms we are talking about this evening. If savers have not received communication, they must have avenues of redress. They can bring a complaint to the internal dispute procedure and if that does not resolve the issue, the There's been common for some time and have heard them, to recognise some of the arguments being made but I want to be clear that we cannot retrospectively change the benefit schemes offered to their members.

Any legislative change would affect all integrative schemes, risking the future of some that are less well funded. But I do want to engage with the question of pension fairness so many members across the House of raised this evening because while the law is very clear that men and women must be treated equally within women must be treated equally within any scheme, I understand the points that have raised about the effects of those scheme rules that I felt very unequally indeed. Now the inequality of pensions more broadly is a very big issue for our society.

Particular for women and for lower earners over the years. And want to celebrate the progress that has been made and also recognise how much more there is to do. The progress, the State Pension, the new State Pension introduced after 2016 by the previous government has made a significant difference in closing the gap between the average amounts received weekly by men and women. To equalise it in practice, and the Member for Strangford raised the importance of the State Pension as the bedrock of all of our pension savings, say that is progress that has been made, and an automatic enrolment we've also seen significant progress with 89% of eligible women who are now saving into a pension.

That's a big change from the 2001 as little as 40% of women were saving into a pension pot, but there is much more to do. The gender pension gap which the Department for work and pension now publishes figures on for the first time is very large. Some of that reflects some of the historic issues we've been discussing, but it also reflects our labour market. Lower employment rates for women, much more likely to working part-time work, much more likely to be lower earners, example 3.9% of women working low-paid work versus 2.8% of men.

These are the structural inequalities the lag behind things that then manifest as pension that then manifest as pension inequality and it's why the reform of State Pension has moved towards a more equal treatment of women and men. In terms of what the government is doing about that, we will shortly be setting out a timeline for phase 2 of our pension review fixing and adequacy and in particular addressing some of these very important questions because although people talk about pension adequacy on average across the whole population, it is very different for different groups and that is exact when the pensions review will need to rest on the questions raised but I'd also like to say it shows the importance of some of the changes being brought through the labour market by this government including the implied rights bill which would disproportionately benefit women who are more often lower is.

Now turning to the question raised on indexation, some schemes do provide indexation above the legal minimum on the discretionary basis, and I like the honourable member for Surrey Heath the site sympathise with those members who understood they would receive ongoing discretionary increases only to be let down. We take their consent serially. I've met with now several groups of MPs on exactly this issue and have asked the Department to work with the pension regulator to understand why schemes are not making discretionary payments and to monitor it.

Both trustees and employers need to think carefully about the effect of inflation on members benefits. That is especially true on the back of the exceptional inflation of recent years. Pension scheme trustees after all have a fiduciary duty to scheme members. The duty they should apply when considering discretionary increases. This is directly relevant to recently announced reforms on the use of services in defining benefit schemes that several members of raised tonight. These will make it easier for individual schemes to make decisions that improve outcomes for sponsoring employers and members, and this can include discretionary benefit increases trustees can consider the situation of those members who would benefit from such rises and whether the scheme has a history of making such payments in the past.

Trustees will in negotiation with employers be responsible for determining how members may benefit from any release of surplus. I would like to thank men's you have contributed this evening and particularly the honourable member Stratford upon Avon. We all benefit from the opportunity to address this important topic, and as the Minister for pensions, it's my probity to ensure people who work hard can enjoy the retirement they are owed. And that is what this government will always do, but I will give way one last time.



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The honourable member Hazel Grove asked the question about whether pensioners might be given more control over where their pension funds are invested, and this is also funds are invested, and this is also an issue that has arisen recently around whether pension funds can be invested in defence companies in the UK. I wonder if the Minister could

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comment on this. I thank him for his intervention and his reminder to respond on that and his reminder to respond on that point. He will know that trustees point. He will know that trustees already do have a responsibility to invest in the interest of their members and that the law requires trustees of schemes that are significant with over 100 members to set out a clear statement of their investment principles and the honourable lady mentioned some of the issues on that.

That's how they provide clarity to their savers. There is also scope for individuals particularly in larger pension schemes on the contribution side to make choices about where they invest their funds. You see that for example in, the government backed pension scheme where we do see individual is making different choices. Sometimes in the grounds of the issues he raises on the fence but also on other ethical issues across the board but I thank the honourable member for his intervention and for reminding me to come back on that point before concluding, which was just to say that it's important that we do offer people secure retirements for that is the job of this government, my job as pensions minister, what our pensions review is focusing on doing

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and it's what this government will always do. Thank you. The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The ayes have it.
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