Westminster Hall

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Westminster Hall

Tuesday 22 October 2024

[Valerie Vaz in the Chair]

Pub and Hospitality Sector

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Westminster Hall

09:30

[Mr Peter Bedford (Mid Leicestershire) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered support for pubs and the hospitality sector.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. I apologise for my hoarse voice; I can assure hon. Members that it is not as a result of the overuse of pubs and similar venues in my constituency over the weekend.

Over recent months, I have had the privilege of visiting several hospitality venues in my constituency. I think particularly of the Curzon Arms in Woodhouse Eaves, which I reopened over the summer recess; the Forge Inn in Glenfield; the Stamford Arms in Groby; and the Coach and Horses in Markfield, which I have got to know over many years as the local councillor. I thank the many hon. Members who have turned up this morning; the debate is clearly of great interest.

The pub and hospitality sector has long been at the heart of the British economy. From the small countryside pub to big inner-city restaurants, the sector provides countless social and economic benefits for the United Kingdom. It is essential that we understand the challenges faced by the industry and do our utmost to support it to flourish.

The sector provides countless economic benefits to the UK as a whole. It contributes £140 billion in economic activity and provides £54 billion in tax receipts to the Exchequer. In fact, pubs and breweries contribute a whopping £18 billion in taxes to the UK economy.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Bedford]

If the hon. Gentleman could give me a few moments, I will carry on. The success of UK plc is intrinsically linked to the success of the leisure and hospitality sector. The hospitality sector is a key employer throughout the UK, employing 3.5 million people, many with flexible working arrangements. It is vital for our younger people. As of this year, 51% of 16 to 24-year-olds are employed in the sector, and that plays a crucial role in developing their careers.

In my maiden speech, I stated that social mobility, particularly through apprenticeships, is key to creating a fairer and more just society. Many businesses in this sector offer apprenticeship schemes. Is it not great that someone can start as a trainee, a pot washer, and end up running an entire business? I think that should be applauded.

The sector also provides many social benefits. Hospitality businesses play a crucial role in encouraging socialising. In a country where many, particularly the elderly, often feel isolated and alone, community pubs often provide a place for people to come and feel part of broader society.

I have spoken with local independent brewers in Leicestershire, in particular Everards, and we should also recognise the significant charitable contributions of community pubs. In Leicestershire, 153 independently-run pubs raise more than £1.5 million locally for local charities, which is reinvested in local communities to make them even greater places to live and work. That is invariably why 72% of British adults believe that pubs have a positive impact on the communities that they serve. I take the opportunity to celebrate the positive impact that the hospitality sector has in my constituency. In Mid Leicestershire, our 41 pubs cumulatively support more than 2,000 jobs and contribute £19 million to the Treasury.

However, as we are all aware, the industry has faced many challenges over recent years. What makes the sector so successful is its incredible resilience. There have been many challenges: the covid-19 pandemic, the conflict in Ukraine and various geopolitical challenges have sent input costs spiralling high. The pandemic saw the hospitality industry suffer the biggest economic decline of all sectors. Economic output in the sector between 2019 and 2020 decreased by 42%, and we lost 10% of hospitality businesses during the pandemic. However, industry experts recognise the support that the last Conservative Government offered the industry through the eat out to help out scheme, a temporary cut to VAT and furloughing more than 2.1 million jobs, which limited the impact of the pandemic.

There have also been significant global challenges. The sector’s resilience has been displayed throughout the ongoing cost of living crisis brought on by world events.

[Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)]

The hon. Gentleman talked about the war in Ukraine and the cost of living. Dean Banks, who runs the Haar restaurant in St Andrews, told me that energy costs are a challenge. One of the problems is that energy companies use direct debits to keep hold of companies’ money, so they cannot manage their cash flow. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is a real issue?

[Mr Bedford]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. That applies to domestic consumers and to businesses that have to manage their cash flow, so I absolutely support her comments on energy providers.

The war on Ukraine, which brought about the increase in energy prices, has caused hospitality profit margins to continue to decline. Office for National Statistics data shows that hospitality businesses are more likely to shut their doors for at least two days a week than any other industry. However, once again the industry has expressed its gratitude to the previous Government for their support, particularly through the retail, hospitality and leisure business rates relief scheme, which saved the average hospitality business £12,000 and prevented many small and medium-sized businesses from going bust. The sector is not immune from the effects of over-regulation, which of course stifles creativity and businesses’ ability to grow.

So where are we heading? I will move on to what may happen under the new Government’s plans. With the Budget just around the corner, I implore the Chancellor to do all she can to support, not hinder, the hospitality sector. The sector is clear that it desperately needs a continued reduction in business rates. Many in the sector have stated that they face a cliff edge on 1 April next year if the Government do not extend business rate relief to them. Two pubs shut every day in the UK, and that number will only increase if the relief is not extended.

[John Cooper (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)]

The point about closures is significant. In Scotland, the Government have imposed minimum unit pricing, which was introduced at 50p per unit of alcohol and has recently risen to 65p. It was intended to reduce alcohol-related deaths—a laudable aim—but unfortunately they rose to 1,277 in 2023, which is an absolute tragedy. The rate of hospitality business closures in Scotland is twice that of England, so does my hon. Friend agree that minimum unit pricing appears to be a blunt instrument that is not helping at all?

[Mr Bedford]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: minimum unit pricing in Scotland has had adverse consequences and has not benefited his constituents.

The Budget could not only include an increase in business rates for the sector; it is looking more and more likely that the Government are reviewing employers’ national insurance contributions. UKHospitality is clear that an increase in national insurance would be particularly damaging for the sector—that tax on jobs could finish off many businesses that are already on the edge.

The previous Government supported hospitality businesses by freezing alcohol duty for three years and introducing the Brexit pub guarantee. But with the “nightmare before Halloween” Budget on its way, it looks as though the new Government are looking to increase alcohol duty, and that would not be good news.

[Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful point about taxes on alcohol. Many pubs are shifting away from being wet pubs and are becoming dry pubs. David Lee, who runs the Holly Bush in Frensham, told me that he wants to be able to serve good quality fresh food, but the VAT on it is really hitting his margins. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Chancellor should look at reducing VAT on fresh food for the hospitality industry?

[Mr Bedford]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we should do all we can to support the industry as it recovers from the pandemic, and I hope the Chancellor takes on board his sensible suggestion.

For the hospitality sector, the most concerning part of the Employment Rights Bill, which had its Second Reading yesterday, relates to so-called equality laws, which are being updated to make employers liable for staff being “offended” by third parties. That would in effect turn hospitality managers into banter cops, who will feel duty-bound to step in every time someone makes an off-colour remark or joke. How on earth can we be entering a world in which someone can be deplatformed in their local pub? It is absolute madness.

I move on to another piece of Orwellian legislation. The ban on smoking in beer gardens and outdoor spaces is frankly ludicrous. The nanny state is causing outright economic harm to the industry, and I implore the Government to rethink their proposals.

Finally, I shall mention gambling regulation. There have been reports that taxes on the gambling sector will rise in line with the recommendations of the Institute for Public Policy Research commission on health and prosperity. The increase, worth £46 million, will wipe out the profit of the bingo industry and is likely to cost 8,000 jobs across our local communities. The bingo industry has made it clear that if speculation around the Budget comes to fruition, it will be even more damaging than covid and the energy crisis.

What could we do instead? We could look at cutting beer duty or bringing in 20% draught relief. The UK has one of the highest alcohol duties in Europe. Duty on a pint of 5% beer is 54p, compared with 5p in Germany. A pint of beer is four or five times more expensive in a pub than purchased in a supermarket. The brewery industry is the most taxed sector in the UK, at 40% of its turnover. That is a regressive tax and hits people on the lowest incomes the hardest.

[Mr Richard Holden (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a fantastic speech, covering all aspects of the hospitality sector. An extra benefit of draught beer relief is that 97% of the input into draught beer is made in the UK. That has a big knock-on effect across our agricultural sector. It is a win-win for UK farmers, the UK Exchequer and the hospitality sector. I urge him to continue to press the Government to push for greater relief in that space.

[Mr Bedford]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. More specifically to help the hospitality business, the draught relief of 20% that has been mentioned—a campaign led by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Buckinghamshire (Greg Smith)— could see an extra 20 million pints sold a year and create 2,500 jobs, with a boost to the economy of more than £70 million.

We could protect hospitality businesses from the business rate relief changes. Pubs are taxed in a different way from most businesses—not on rateable value based on their rent, but as a calculation of their expected turnover. The ending of the retail hospitality relief would be deeply damaging for the sector, with businesses seeing a quadrupling of their business rates. I agree with the representations made by the British Beer and Pub Association that the relief should be kept until a new business rates framework is introduced.

We could also allow reform in the planning and licensing space. UKHospitality has advocated a more mainstream approach to the application of the planning and licensing framework. That would put pubs at the heart of the village and town centre. Kate Nicholls, CEO of UKHospitality, says:

“Too many hospitality businesses with ambitions to expand and grow are held back and frustrated by the current system.”

I also support the idea that there should be more flexibility for businesses to open later for special occasions, such as the women’s football World cup, to allow punters more time to enjoy the festivities. We could cut national insurance contributions for lower-paid earners and promote apprenticeships more.

The potential increase in employer national insurance contributions will have a massive impact on the UK hospitality sector. Industry experts have strongly criticised any move to make such an increase. They believe there should not be an increase—indeed, that there should be a lower level for lower-paid earners. Furthermore, the apprenticeship system is failing around the country. There needs to be a rethink in reforming the apprenticeship levy to incentivise businesses, particularly in this sector, to invest more and be more agile in how they offer apprenticeships.

In conclusion, I hope the Government take note of today’s debate and introduce measures that will enable our pub and hospitality sector to thrive and grow for the future.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

Right hon. and hon. Members will notice that a lot of Members want to speak and it looks like it is standing room only. I am going to impose an informal two-minute time limit. That does not stop hon. Members from intervening. I call Kim Johnson.

09:44

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool Riverside) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Vaz. I thank the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for securing the debate. Pubs and hospitality are vital to the economy of my constituency. Every year, the hospitality sector in Liverpool Riverside alone has a turnover of £1.7 billion, employing more than 31,000 people.

I could be biased, but I believe that Liverpool is the best city in the world. Our city centre is home to so many world-famous music venues, bars, pubs and other hospitality venues—from The Cavern on Mathew Street to The Casa on Hope Street and The Jacaranda on Slater Street—and to groups from The Beatles to The Real Thing, recently honoured as the first black group to achieve a No. 1. We are a UNESCO city of music; we have dominated the music charts for years, with 56 No. 1 singles, and we were nominated European capital of culture in 2008. We are a city of clubs and bars and of parties. Most recently, the unforgettable Taylor Swift concerts and Eurovision brought hundreds of thousands of people together and generated millions for our region’s economy. The great events and the people who worked so hard to put them on brought over £80 million to the city.

However, years of unprecedented challenges— including the pandemic, the cost of living crisis and soaring food and energy bills—risk suffocating these cultural institutions and this vibrant sector, placing thousands of businesses and jobs at risk across the country. There are unprecedented levels of closures, with an estimated net loss of 300,000 hospitality venues in 2023, leading to thousands of job losses. More than half of Liverpool’s business rates come from the hospitality sector, with small businesses contributing significantly compared with far larger companies in far more profiteering sectors. High taxes on alcohol make it impossible for pubs to compete with cheap supermarket alcohol, driving consumers out of the safe settings of community pubs that help to promote responsible and sociable drinking.

I know I am short of time, so lastly, we must recognise the immense value of our heritage. Liverpool’s pubs are more than just places to drink—they are historical venues, cultural landmarks and community spaces. They must be protected and we must take action to ensure they are not swept away by planning loopholes and profiteering.

09:47

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for raising this important debate. We can see from the number of people here how much this touches every single one of us. In my constituency, local venues, pubs and restaurants are seeing a triple whammy of pressure with increased wage costs, increased energy costs and the significant rise in business rates as rates relief comes to an end. That is having a massive impact. Nationally, these venues are closing at a rate of 50 a month.

I am reminded of work by the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee earlier this year looking at grassroots music venues, because of course many pubs and restaurants are live music venues as well. They are also the R&D department of our globally successful music industry—they are vital to it—and they are closing at the rate of two a week. Two things the Committee advocated in our report were, first, a levy to go between the big arenas to the small, independent venues and, secondly, a time-limited and very targeted VAT cut. I would like to make the argument for such a cut for small independent hospitality venues.

I do not want to take the argument purely into numbers, because these venues are so important in the way they make us feel—they can regenerate communities and can address social isolation and loneliness—but they are vital for our local economy and for jobs. In the Gosport constituency alone, these venues employ 2,000 people across 146 venues. They are vital. The knock-on effect of venue closure can be devastating. A time-limited and very targeted VAT cut could be a lifeline for some of the venues that are struggling and still have not got back up to speed and back to pre-pandemic opening hours.

09:49

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Madam Chair. Back in early 2019, I was contacted by the beautiful Glen Mhor hotel on the shores of the Loch Ness, which wanted me to raise at Prime Minister’s questions that its Polish workers, who are vital to the business, were all going back. We all know why that was. Unfortunately, at Prime Minister’s questions, I stood up and invited the then Prime Minister Theresa May to accompany me to the Glen Mhor hotel. I did not get much further than that question because it sounded like an improper suggestion and the House collapsed in laughter. I should add that some weeks later I asked Theresa May another question about space launch in the highlands and she responded that she was very disappointed that I had not once again asked her to accompany me to a hotel.

The point is a serious one. The eastern European workers have been the lifeline and the mainstay of the hospitality business in the highlands, an area where we have depopulation and an ageing population. Very often the hotels, restaurants and pubs struggle to find the people they desperately need to change sheets, wash up, work as kitchen porters and scrub the pans and pots, as we have just heard—I myself was a KP at one point. My point is very simple: I urge the Government to make it as easy as possible for businesses to offer the work that people desperately want and make it as easy as possible for them to come to the United Kingdom and contribute to our hospitality economy.

09:50

[Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Vaz. I thank the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for securing this important debate.

Pubs and the hospitality sector play an important part in Stockport and across Britain. In Stockport we have 65 pubs and five breweries supporting 1,590 jobs, creating £29 million in tax and contributing £57 million to the economy. We have several iconic businesses related to the sector, including Robinsons Brewery, which is still family-owned, the award-winning Stockport Gin—it continues to be stocked in the Strangers bar, and I invite Members to check it out—and also iconic pubs including the Magnet and the Sir Robert Peel. The sector has been struggling. The hon. Gentleman made the point that several pubs have closed. I believe in the first half of 2024, 50 pubs closed each month. So far in 2024 there has been a net loss of 94 small independent breweries.

I want to highlight the record of the previous Government—the last 14 years of Conservative Government, including the coalition years—and its impact on our hospitality sector. I am hopeful that the new Government and our capable Minister will deliver for the sector. Maintaining the 75% business rates relief for the retail, hospitality and leisure sector is very important. On business rates, pubs are taxed in a different way from most businesses. Large breweries, often run by multinational firms, are classified as specialist brewery sites for business rates. Small breweries have normal commercial premises for business rates purposes. That means that small breweries can pay 40 times as much per pint in business rates as a global brewer does, so that needs to be looked at to support the sector.

I thank the Campaign for Real Ale, the Society of Independent Brewers and the British Beer and Pub Association for all that they do for the sector, and of course Robinsons, particularly William Robinson, who continue to lobby me.

09:52

[Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) on securing this debate. As time is tight, I will focus my comments on my constituency.

In Tatton there are 89 pubs and three breweries that support 2,350 jobs, generating £29 million in tax and contributing £60 million to the economy. Recently I wrote to every one of those pubs in Tatton, following the Government’s announcement that an outdoor smoking ban was being considered, to seek their views on that as well as the wider issues facing the hospitality sector. The answers revealed common concerns: business rates, beer duty, employer’s national insurance rises and Labour’s Employment Rights Bill, which is on the front pages of most of the papers today because that will cost businesses £4.5 billion a year. On top of that is Labour’s outdoor smoking ban, which would particularly affect pubs that rely partly or fully on wet-side sales, suggesting the ban would cause a drop in footfall of about 10% to 30%—enough to close more of them down.

It was clear from the responses that the Government should think again and drop the outdoor smoking ban. If they are determined to push ahead, they should at the very least consult the industry and do an impact assessment. I know that is something that this Government do not like and tend to shy away from, but that is what they need to do. Can the Minister inform me if he intends to drop this policy? At the very least, will he consult with the sector and do an impact assessment? I was going to touch on business rates, but I will not have time to do so. I will just say that the relief that the Conservative party brought in needs to be continued until a permanent solution is found.

09:55

[Dr Allison Gardner (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for bringing forward this fantastic and important debate. I will keep my comments to one issue: the importance of community pubs to villages in my area of Stoke-on-Trent South and surrounding north Staffordshire.

The village of Yarnfield has been fighting for—the Opposition will love this—the Labour in Vain pub. I have taken a photo outside it, which I know will be an internet meme. It is the village’s one and only pub, and the village has been fighting to save it. I will not name and shame, but the owner of the pub is a large chain that has overvalued it, so when the village tried to exercise its right to buy it was delayed and its offer, which was a fair one from an independent valuer, was rejected. We believe, although we are not sure, that the owner is holding out because the land on which the pub sits has valuable planning possibilities. The village of Yarnfield is trying to save its pub for the community.

Hon. Members have talked about young people. The young people of the village are really keen to have the pub not just for their own sake and entertainment, but for the job opportunities that it offers. The village’s right to buy ran out because of the delay by the company. The Government have committed to really supporting communities to have their right to buy, so I would like to know more about what we will do. Maybe we could extend the time and revisit those pubs and communities who have run out of time to get their pub and see how we can help the Labour in Vain.

In my last 10 seconds, I will say that community pubs are valuable. My local pub, the Plume of Feathers in Barlaston, is fantastic. We were delighted that it was allowed, despite restrictions, to have a guest beer named Einstein, which is the best beer in the country—I challenge hon. Members to pick another one.

09:57

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate and to serve under your chairship, Ms Vaz. I congratulate the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) on setting the scene so well.

I will speak very quickly in my one minute and 50 seconds. Ahead of this debate, the UK Spirits Alliance has stated that one in five pubs says it is at risk of closing. That is the issue before us all and before every constituency across this great United Kingdom. The Northern Ireland hospitality sector is Northern Ireland’s fourth largest private sector employer, with a turnover of some £2 billion. With that in mind, the chief executive officer of Hospitality Ulster, Colin Neill, has done some incredible work to support and help to grow the industry, so we want to keep it growing and keep the initiative and opportunity for jobs and the economy.

The key issue in my council area is tourism, as along with tourism comes the hospitality sector, so it is really important to get this right. The Society of Independent Brewers and Associates says that there are some 1,721 small independent breweries in the UK, with some 10,000 full-time equivalents, which directly contribute some £270 million to GDP each year.

Small independent breweries face restrictions on growing their business. There is a difficulty in recruiting and retaining staff. I suggest to the Minister that the creation of the new immigration pathway to facilitate the introduction of new people to the skills of Northern Ireland and the UK has been a success. There is also the issue of business rates. Pubs are taxed in a different way from most businesses, not on a rateable value based on their rent, but on a calculation of their expected turnover. I once again ask the Minister to create a more level playing field. The Government’s reforms of business rates should include a full review of the differential between a global and a small brewery.

In conclusion—keeping to your two-minute limit, Ms Vaz—there is so much that we can do or discuss to help to support the sustainability and future of our pubs and hospitality sector. I look to the Minister today for commitment and answers on what steps he will take to protect the industry, and I have hope that he will continue to communicate with representatives in Northern Ireland on these issues. I am exhausted from talking.

09:59

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Vaz. The south-west as a region has the highest number of pubs per capita in the UK, with 75 pubs per 100,000 people. As has already been rehearsed, they are community lifelines, social hubs and local landmarks where we form friendships, celebrate life’s highs and find comfort in life’s lows. Most contribute more than £100,000 annually to our local economy and support dozens of jobs, keeping many family businesses afloat. However, publicans in my area have been telling me about the razor-thin margins they are operating on and the difficulty they are having, as they burn through their remaining savings just to keep the refrigerators running.

I want to draw on the example of one pub in particular, the former George Inn in Chardstock, which was very much the hub of the community—the sort of place that was the living room of the village, where the local skittles team played and villagers met regularly. Owned by the Wellington Pub Company, it closed and the company was happy to just sit on the property as an asset—the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Dr Gardner) spoke about that—and see its value inflate. While the company did that, it did not want to do any work on the place and certainly did not want it to operate as a pub. The George Inn Continuity Group in Chardstock has done a fantastic job of bringing the villagers out to campaign to reopen the pub. However, we really need to see reform of the Localism Act 2011. It was a good starting point, but we now need enhanced powers over community assets to help local authorities to protect pubs.

10:01

[Tom Hayes (Bournemouth East) (Lab)]

I am thrilled that the Labour Government value the role of pubs, cafés, restaurants and more in serving Bournemouth and Britain. When I speak with publicans and people involved in the hospitality sector, they tell me that they want Bournemouth to be seen not as a sleepy seaside town, but as a thriving and bustling place to invest, work and live.

Let us take as an example the stretch of Charminster Road between the Broadway pub and Creams. There are 17 different types of cuisine on offer, which are as diverse as the communities that call Charmy home. We have four pubs—the Richmond Arms, the Fiveways, the Broadway and The Dancing Jug—and more than 80% of vendors are independent.

If we move to Boscombe—I know that hon. Members would want to—we have Boscanova. Started by the team behind Bad Hand Coffee, it is a fantastic place that I visited recently and remains a bustling spot for great food made from ingredients sourced in Dorset and Hampshire, and some of the best coffee in Bournemouth. I cannot dwell on Boscombe without talking about Flamingo and Joy Cafe, and Cafe Riva and the Hush Club. The Hush Club almost stopped visiting Cafe Riva because of issues with the council and licensing complaints. I am pleased to have brought people together in recent weeks to keep that going.

If we move over to Southbourne, as again I know hon. Members would want to, there are fantastic places to visit, such as Wild & Ginger, Little Perth, Ludo Lounge, Brewhouse & Kitchen, The Wight Bear, Syd’s Slaps, The Larder House, Dicky’s, Harry’s—I could go on. Moving quickly over to Moordown, if hon. Members fancy a good fish and chips on a Friday night, they might have to queue up, but I recommend they go to Malvern Road Fisheries. Lastly, in Muscliff and Strouden Park, perhaps the best kebab in the whole of Bournemouth East, if not the whole country, is found at Noor. I encourage any and all people to come, any day of the week.

I thank the business improvement districts for all they do to fuel economic growth and the people of Bournemouth East, who invest, set up businesses and help to fuel the hospitality economy, because they are making Bournemouth the amazing place that it is.

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

I remind hon. Members that I expect to begin the wind-ups at 10.28 am.

10:03

[Robbie Moore (Keighley and Ilkley) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for securing this important debate.

In my constituency of Keighley and Ilkley, pubs are a huge part of our local community. They are our meeting place, a place to socialise, and a place to wind down after a busy week or even a busy day, and can also provide a vital place to help to address loneliness, improve mental health and wellbeing, and address socialisation. I aim to recognise the great work of pubs through my own best pub award, drawing positive attention to some of the fantastic pubs from across my constituency.

Previous winners include the Craven Heifer in Addingham, which does a mighty meat pie; The Brown Cow in Keighley, where hon. Members will find one of the best-poured pints of Timothy Taylor’s Landlord; the Goats Head in Steeton, one of the friendliest pubs embedded in the heart of the community; and of course the Haworth Steam Brewery, which always has a fantastic atmosphere and a great vibe, and which is home not only to its own beers but to Howarth gin.

One of the common themes in what all those pubs have told me is that small businesses across our hospitality sector constantly face that battle against Government red tape. That is why the last Government raised the VAT threshold to £90,000, which meant that over 28,000 businesses benefited from not needing to be VAT-registered. I would like a reassurance from the Minister that this Government will not look to reduce that threshold or implement a VAT cut.

I am also concerned by other measures that the Government are rumoured to be looking at, such as employer national insurance or business rates relief— I urge the Government to keep that business rates relief in place—as well as the measures in the Employment Rights Bill, which had its Second Reading yesterday. I cannot stress enough how concerned small businesses are about the challenges that will be created by that Bill. Also, given that the economic analysis was released so late, what are the real unintended consequences to small businesses right across the country?

10:05

[Caroline Voaden (South Devon) (LD)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to today’s debate about the vital support needed for our pubs and our broader hospitality sector, and I thank the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for securing it.

In South Devon, the hospitality industry is more than just a business; it is the lifeblood of our communities. Our area boasts over 700 pubs and restaurants, so there are far too many to name. I will not single any of them out, but they are all brilliant and they employ more than 12,000 people. This sector does not merely create jobs; it fuels our local economy, contributing over £500 million every year. However, we know that many of those venues are at breaking point.

I also want to raise the issue of business rates relief. One family-run hotel in my constituency has been in operation for over 127 years and faces an uncertain future. If the business rates relief cap is lifted, it will be forced to find an additional £110,000 a year just to keep its doors open. For a business that has served our community for generations, that is a real threat to its very survival, and that situation is not unique to South Devon. Across the country, pubs are closing at an alarming rate. Covid presented a huge challenge to the industry, but the fallout from Brexit is still keenly felt. Disrupted supply chains and the increased costs of importing goods, as well as severe staff shortages due to the end of free movement, have all compounded the difficulties for our pubs and restaurants, many of which are now having to shut their doors a couple of days a week, which has a knock-on effect on local communities.

In response to all those mounting challenges, I have written to the Chancellor to urge the Government to extend rate relief for the hospitality sector. Temporary reliefs on business rates and alcohol duties are welcome but insufficient to address the long-term sustainability of the sector. We need bolder reforms that will give our hospitality venues the breathing room they need to invest in their people, their properties and their future. The Liberal Democrats are committed to real and lasting reform, including business rates relief and increasing the employment allowance for small businesses. Policies such as those are not just a lifeline for businesses but an investment in the future of our people, our economy and our communities.

10:07

[Mr Bayo Alaba (Southend East and Rochford) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for securing this debate. This is a matter close to me because my background is in the hospitality sector. I spent 23 years running and owning bars, pubs, restaurants and festivals, and I provided consultancy services to the industry. In my role as the MP for Southend East and Rochford, I have spoken to a lot of businesses because they are particularly important to the regeneration of the town centre and the high street, and that is something that I have been keenly engaged with.

With all those industries, as some hon. Members have mentioned, it is quite important how they run, plan and make their business. The example that they have given me is the increasing costs from business rates, food, beverages and even wages, which make their businesses quite hard to run. They shoulder that burden, sometimes against the backdrop of increasing antisocial behaviour and decreasing footfall. Those are the challenges that, as I have mentioned before, I faced myself in running my business. I am sure many Members here, once upon a time, worked in pubs and bars as an entry-level job to get into the workplace. We should not underestimate the importance of the soft skills that this sector develops, such as responsibility, punctuality, problem solving and dealing with people from many cultures in different types of situations. Other businesses benefit from those as those individuals move further into the workplace.

It is also worth noting that many operators in this sector, including myself, in some circumstances put their life savings into their business as well. It is important that we support this industry. Pubs and bars provide a vibrant hospitality sector, and it is an industry that helps the next generation prepare for work. Service providers and operators in this sector should be championed for what they provide for our communities.

10:09

[Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Leicestershire (Peter Bedford) on securing this important debate.

This topic has already been touched on, but I want to highlight the fact that 81% of British adults agree that pubs are important in bringing people together, while 73% feel that pubs help to combat loneliness in their area and 73% feel that the impact of pubs on their community life is positive. For those reasons alone, pubs should be supported in the current challenging environment. Some more statistics jump out: pubs in the UK contribute more than £34 billion in gross value to our economy and the sector supports more than a million jobs, an increase of more than 100,000 since before the pandemic. In my constituency of Bromsgrove, there are 73 pubs and two breweries, which together support 2,800 jobs, generate £30 million in tax revenue and contribute £95 million to the local economy. In short, those pubs are vital for keeping money within the Bromsgrove economy.

I would like to raise some points about Labour’s proposals, including the lack of clarity about future support, the employment law reform, and the outdoor smoking ban. The Bell and Cross pub in Clent wrote to me to highlight the difficulties that it continues to face in the current operating environment, under the most extreme trading conditions that it has ever seen. Like so many pubs, it wants the Government to commit to extending the business rates relief until the outdated business rates system is fully reformed and VAT on all sales in pubs is reduced. That would allow pubs to thrive as essential and unique venues in towns, high streets and villages across the UK. The Bell and Cross is also concerned about the obligations that the Employment Rights Bill will place upon it, and how the Bill could deter employment into the sector.

I want to put on record my concern about the effects of a potential ban on smoking in outdoor spaces, including pub gardens. That will be contrary to the spirit of liberty and will displace smoking to other locations.

10:12

[James McMurdock (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Reform)]

I thank the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for bringing this debate about a very valid and appreciated topic.

It is fortunate that the specifics have already been set out today, because that allows me to keep things at a high level. I would like to ask the Minister to hear the kind of rallying cries that I am hearing from my constituents, which are: “Save the local pub” and “Save the family breweries”.

There are two things I would like to ask the Minister to focus on. One is to avoid the pitfalls that come with the counter-intuitiveness of the situation he is in and to recognise that, by increasing tax burdens even further, he would actually end up generating less revenue for the Treasury.

In my constituency of South Basildon and East Thurrock, we only have 23 pubs remaining. We have already touched on the alarming rates at which pubs are closing. One example in my constituency, very close to where I grew up, was The Barge, a 200-year-old pub. It is now gone and it will not come back. Those 23 pubs are raising more than £33 million in revenue for the economy, £10 million of which is going in tax. If the Government keeps burdening them, those pubs will close and the Treasury will receive less money.

Furthermore, people who do want to drink and do want to smoke will continue to do so. The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (John Cooper) touched on minimum pricing, but what we are seeing is actually a decrease in people’s health. I would like the Minister to be conscious of the dangers of accidentally worsening the situation in terms of both tax and people’s health. People will drink if they want to and they will smoke if they want to, but in places where they are not regulated, where it is less safe and where no tax will be generated. We must be mindful of that. I will finish by thanking everyone and saying: save our local pubs.

10:14

[Ms Julie Minns (Carlisle) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Vaz. May I also add my thanks to the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for bringing this debate?

As the Member for Carlisle, I can make a unique claim in this debate: the pubs and breweries of Carlisle were, for a period of 50 years, nationalised. What people drank, where they drank it, and when they drank it were determined just up the road from here, in Whitehall. Understanding that rather unusual state of affairs means returning to 1916: war is raging in Europe and just across the border, in Gretna, lies Europe’s largest munitions factory. Meanwhile, down the road in Carlisle lies one of the finest collections of pubs and breweries. Sadly, the bounteous supply of both beer and ordnance was not a match made in heaven, and the Government nationalised the pubs in 1916, and so that remained until 1973.

The reason that is relevant today is that when those pubs were privatised, they were sold off in large job lots, which means that, even to this day, the majority of our pubs in Carlisle remain in the ownership of the large breweries. What that means for the independent breweries, such as Great Corby, the Carlisle Brewing Company, West Walls Brewing Co. and the Old Vicarage in Walton, is that getting their product into our pubs is difficult. I therefore urge the Minister to raise with his colleagues the application of the pubs code, so that we can ensure that more of our independent breweries have access to the customers in pubs in all our constituencies.

The final point I would like to make, again, to support our wonderful independent breweries, is that we should consider increasing draft beer relief to 20%, which the Society of Independent Brewers and others estimate would be a huge boost not just to our local businesses but to the whole economy.

10:16

[Gareth Davies (Grantham and Bourne) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) on obtaining this important debate. We could talk about the economic contribution of our pubs—the £54 billion of tax revenue, the 3.5 million people employed—but ultimately, as many Members have outlined, their main contribution is the community benefits that our pubs bring to all our communities and constituencies. I have 79 pubs in my constituency, not just in our two towns of Grantham and Bourne, but across our postcard-picture villages, such as the Green Man in Ropsley, the Wishing Well in Dyke and very many others that I could go on to mention—possibly to my benefit when I write to them after this speech.

Those pubs are concerned about the environment that will ensue after the Halloween Budget. They are concerned about the potential national insurance increase, which will break not just Labour’s manifesto commitment but many of our pubs. They are concerned about last night’s Employment Rights Bill and the increased burdens it will place on them, and they are very concerned about the implications of the outdoor smoking ban. In government, we sought to support pubs as best we could with 75% rates relief. We increased the VAT threshold and did many things, such as the Brexit pubs guarantee, that changed the dynamic of alcohol duty to ensure that the pint in the pub always pays less duty than the can of beer in the supermarket.

The Minister will not be able to speculate on what is in the Halloween Budget, but he should know that we are united in this room today on the need to support our pub sector, not just for the economy but for the communities in our constituencies.

10:18

[Chris Murray (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Vaz. I represent the city centre of Edinburgh, so it is impossible to overstate the critical contribution of the hospitality sector, not just to the economy of my constituency but to Scotland and the UK as a whole. For example, the Scottish whisky industry produces £7.2 billion for the UK economy every year and, collectively, visits to distilleries in Scotland are the biggest single-ticketed venue in the UK, and those include Holyrood distillery in the centre of my constituency.

The pub sector in Scotland is absolutely critical, generating £2.3 billion in gross value added contributions in Scotland alone and employing 45,000 workers. Tragically, pubs in Scotland are closing at twice the rate of pubs in England. I want to reassure the House that my Scottish Labour colleagues and I are ensuring that the needs and opportunities presented by the whisky and pub sectors in Scotland are being heard right at the heart of this new Government.

I want to touch on a couple of the contributions made by the pub and hospitality sector beyond the economic. The first is tackling loneliness. Loneliness is as big a killer in this country as cancer, and pubs are critical to tackling it in the community. The second is providing career paths, particularly for the young. The contribution that these jobs make to developing the soft skills that we desperately need in the economy is vastly underestimated. I began my career by working for two years in the restaurant of the Hilton hotel in Glasgow, and that taught me a lot of critical life lessons that I use in this place, so it is important that we get the policy dynamics of this right. That includes tax and incentives, but it also includes the obligations we put on the sector.

We must learn from the Scottish experience of the disastrous deposit return scheme, which has been a real challenge for the sector, and the business rates uncertainty created by the SNP Government in Holyrood.

10:20

[Sarah Bool (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

I start by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for securing this debate on pubs and the hospitality industry. In my rural constituency of South Northamptonshire, we have 95 pubs and four breweries; they support 1,950 jobs, generate £26 million in tax and contribute £48 million to the local economy. But pubs contribute so much more than that—and I do not just mean the Towcester Mill Brewery in my constituency providing the Strangers Bar with the famous Bell Ringer beer, well known for its zesty orange marmalade notes and earthy, spicy aftertaste.

I was invited to visit The White Hart in Hackleton in my constituency at the end of September to hear at first hand what it is like to run a pub in 2024. Aside from alcohol duty, VAT and business rates, one of the most striking points from the conversation was what it would actually mean for local people, should the pubs be forced to close. We cannot underestimate the power of the community that is created and fostered in rural areas around the local pub. With the lack of bus services and the wider transport issues, pubs are a crucial source of truly local employment for some villages. I was told of one pub that had taken on a local girl with Down’s syndrome, who would otherwise have struggled to access employment outside the village due to the lack of transport. For her it was a real lifeline, and she developed not only her resumé but her professional and social skills.

My ask for the sector is that we cut VAT, continue the freeze on alcohol duty and extend the current 75% business rate relief for hospitality businesses. Like me, many hon. Members may enjoy settling down of an evening to watch one of our great British soaps, be it “EastEnders”, “Coronation Street” or even “Emmerdale”. And what is at the heart of those? The pub. We must make sure that the scriptwriters do not have to change their scenes because we have destroyed this industry.

10:22

[Katrina Murray (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch) (Lab)]

I commend you for your chairing of this debate, Ms Vaz, and I commend the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for securing this debate. I follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Dr Gardner), who spoke about the role of the community pub, and the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Sarah Bool), who spoke about the importance of the industry, the challenges it faces and the fact that, when hospitality businesses close, the heart of a community is ripped out. The more rural a community is, the bigger the hole that is left.

When the local pub in my constituency was threatened with closure after its lease was up, the PUB stepped in—People United for Banton, not the bar. The village had already lost its post office and its shop and, with the pub about to be turned into residential accommodation, the community stepped in. It formed a management committee, secured community funding and shareholding, and reopened The Swan, fully renovated, in the middle of the pandemic. It is not just a pub; it is the centre and social hub of the community. It is warm and friendly, and last month I was proud to attend the Macmillan coffee morning in the village, along with local councillors. Nearly £2,000 was raised, which isn’t bad for a village of just over 350 people.

We can surely agree that we need a good-quality steak pie —that is really important in my part of the world—good coffee, a nice wee gin, and somewhere to watch the football or dry off after a dog walk. Our pubs are vital.

10:24

[Blake Stephenson (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for securing this important debate.

Pubs and hospitality are at the heart of communities such as mine in Mid Bedfordshire, which is home to 157 hospitality businesses that support 2,229 local jobs and contribute £66 million to our local economy. That includes everything from big chains such as Center Parcs to the Woburn Safari Park and the local pubs, of which there are many to choose from, such as The White Hart in Ampthill; The Chequers in Westoning; The Musgrave Arms in Shillington, affectionately known as the Muzzy; or the award-winning Woolpack inn— the Wooly—in Wilstead.

One of the best ways we can encourage people to visit Mid Bedfordshire and boost our local pubs and hospitality is for the Government to do everything they possibly can to support the inward investment by Universal Studios in my constituency. Universal would be a £50 billion gamechanger to our local economy, and the biggest single boost to turbocharge hospitality in Mid Bedfordshire. But beyond Universal, in the short term, our hospitality businesses need support. They need the Government to protect them by maintaining their manifesto commitment not to raise national insurance, recognising that job-creating small business owners in places like Mid Bedfordshire are working people too, and that employers’ national insurance is a tax on them. Our pubs and hospitality businesses also need the Government to extend the small business rates relief, ensuring that it is viable for them to continue to serve our communities, and our village pubs need the Chancellor to extend the freeze on alcohol duty.

I will conclude by urging the Government to consider the role of pubs and hospitality in making a place in our communities. Wherever houses are built, hospitality must follow; otherwise we risk building expensive dormitories, rather than places people can be proud to call home.

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

Last but not least, we have two speakers, so if you could each take a minute and a half, we can get the wind-ups in.

10:26

[Joe Morris (Hexham) (Lab)]

Thank you, Madam Chair; it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and I thank the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for securing a very important debate. My constituency of Hexham is home to 116 pubs and nine breweries, spanning 2,200 local jobs, with about 580 of those being worked by people aged between 18 and 24.

I want to start by paying tribute to a lot of those pubs, including The Tannery in Hexham, where I bought my first pint; The Angel of Corbridge, where I went for lunch on Saturday after I went door-knocking; my local, The Crown in Humshaugh; as well as The Falcon in Prudhoe and—particularly—The Samson in Gilsland, which is due to reopen this weekend, having been bought by the community after a longstanding campaign by local people to get their pub back. There are a lot of other pubs I could name, such as The Dipton Mill, Travellers Rest, and The Engine in Walbottle.

Ultimately, these pubs are essential to my local economy. They are essential to so many people and communities in the small towns and villages that dot across the Tyne valley. They are also incredibly important in supporting our tourism sector. Northumberland—as I am sure many hon. Members will be incredibly aware—is probably the most beautiful county in England. We have Hadrian’s wall, one of the most iconic sites of these islands, and somewhere that brings people from all around the world to walk. The advantage of having pubs along the length of Hadrian’s wall is of course that you can find somewhere to stop after a long and often rain-sodden walk along it.

Ultimately, however, they are the route into employment for so many people in my constituency. They are where people learn to cut their teeth and pick up those soft skills that end up serving us so well in later life and in future professions. It is where people learn their responsibilities, and even how to turn up on time.

I would also like to pay tribute to a lot of the pubs that are sadly no longer open in my constituency. They have left a void in their communities. Ahead of the Minister’s remarks, I look forward to hearing what we can do to help communities in future reopen pubs that they have lost.

10:28

[Patrick Spencer (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

Thank you for calling me, Ms Vaz. It is a pleasure and a privilege to serve under your chairmanship. I start by paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for securing this important debate—important because, like many people who have come before me, I have a constituency with a rich tradition in the world of food and drink. I will save everybody the verbal tour of my constituency and all the pubs, bars and clubs we have all frequented there, but I will say that in the east of England the hospitality and pub scene supports about 250,000 jobs, creates about £2.5 billion of economic value and pays £1.2 billion to the Exchequer every year. It is not just important in terms of economic value and taxes—it supports our critical tourism industry, and within that 11,000 full-time jobs and £700 million in economic value. But there is social value as well—let us not forget the many old people who do not have people to go to at home, who use the pub to speak and have a natter with people in their local community. It also provides an opportunity for young people to get jobs—their first chance to get on the job ladder.

So, why oh why would we take the opportunity to hammer an industry that has been so badly impacted by covid-19, the smoking ban, rates relief, VAT, national insurance contributions, and inhibitive employment rules and regulations, all of which are mad and bad?

In preparing for this speech I came across a quote from Sally, the manager of The Duke in Ipswich, who said:

“All the landlords and ladies I know are in the business to make a living, not a killing!”

So, please let’s not push more of them over the edge.

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

I call the Lib Dem spokesperson, Sarah Gibson, to speak.

10:30

[Sarah Gibson (Chippenham) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz.

I thank the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) for securing this important debate and I share his concerns about the issues that the hospitality sector faces. Having a background in architecture and construction, I find myself agreeing with him about the need to reform planning and licensing.

I also share the concerns that my hon. Friend the Member for Honiton and Sidmouth (Richard Foord) and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Dr Gardner) expressed about local village pubs. The land they are located on is so valuable for development that there needs to be stronger legislation to secure community assets.

I thank the hon. Member for Southend East and Rochford (Mr Alaba) for noting the importance of this sector in creating entry-level jobs. It is clear from the range of constituencies represented here that pubs and hospitality are important from the top of Scotland down to the south coast of England, and of course to Strangford.

As my hon. Friend the Member for South Devon (Caroline Voaden) mentioned, we all seem to recognise the challenges that this industry faces, from rising energy costs to supply chain issues to a shortage of staff. Despite the support for the industry across the House, we seem to continue to uphold a broken business rates system that is crippling our local pubs. According to the Campaign for Real Ale, our pubs are overpaying on their rate bills by approximately £500 million a year. Therefore, the Liberal Democrats urge this new Government to boost small businesses in the hospitality industry, such as our locally owned pubs, by abolishing business rates and replacing them with a commercial landowner levy.

The previous Conservative Government promised in their 2019 manifesto to review the business rates system and to ease that tax burden. However, on 17 October 2022, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Godalming and Ash (Jeremy Hunt), told the House that that commitment was:

“Another of the promises I now vainly wish I had not made”. —[Official Report, 17 October 2022; Vol. 720, c. 430.]

Businesses are tired of being treated with such cynicism, and I truly hope that this new Labour Government will not treat businesses like that. After all, reforming the rates system is not just about boosting businesses; it is also about saving our local pubs from disappearing completely. In the last three years, 45 pubs in Wiltshire have stopped trading, which is devastating for the economies of small rural communities, such as those in my constituency.

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

I call the Opposition spokesperson, Mike Wood.

10:32

[Mike Wood (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire) (Con)]

Thank you, Ms Vaz, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to respond to this important debate on behalf of His Majesty’s Official Opposition, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) on securing it at such a crucial time for the industry.

Pubs and hospitality are a force for good. They are good for the economy, contributing more than £120 billion nationally and delivering £54 billion in tax receipts to the Treasury, which I am sure the Chancellor will be grateful for next week. They are good for jobs, employing 3.5 million people across every age band, from teenagers to pensioners, and with an even gender balance. They are also good for our communities; our pubs, cafés and restaurants are the heart of local life, bringing people together. Indeed, for many villages the pub or café is the last service surviving in the village, offering a community hub that covers everything from jobs clubs and parents and toddler groups through to serving as the village shop, and even—as I saw at one Pub is The Hub initiative in Cornwall—the hairdressers.

Pubs are a force for good socially, helping to tackle the scourge of loneliness and isolation. Few people could have failed to be moved by the advert for Charlie’s Bar last Christmas. It shows an elderly man walking from his house to his wife’s grave, raising his cap to passers-by, only to be blanked, but he finds comfort and companionship in his local in Fermanagh.

Less well celebrated are the hundreds of initiatives up and down the country, such as the Go To Place at Love & Liquor in Codsall in my constituency, which brings 60 or more people together each Wednesday morning for a coffee, a chat and a bit of breakfast. Although we are all too familiar with the dangers of excess drinking, well-regulated and well-run pubs and bars are forces for good for our mental health. The work done by Professor Dunbar at Oxford university shows that people who have a local where they drink regularly in moderation are likely to be happier and more content than those who do not. Their physical and mental health is likely to be better than that of people who do not. They are likely to have more friends on whom they can depend and feel more engaged in their community than people who do not.

Pubs and hospitality venues have, of course, faced a range of pressures over the past few decades, some of which have been referred to. Some are the results of changing consumer demands, preferences and social habits, but others have been exacerbated by policy decisions made here in Westminster and Whitehall, such as the smoking ban, high business rate bills, and alcohol duty rates that are significantly higher than most western European countries.

The previous Government took a range of actions to help to alleviate some of those pressures. They abandoned Labour’s hated duty escalator, which had meant above-inflation rises in duty every single year. They cut beer duty for the first time in half a century, and introduced multiple freezes in duty, which means that beer duty on a pint in a pub is now significantly lower in real terms than it was in 2010. They introduced a reduced rate of duty for draught beer and cider, taking advantage of the freedoms after Brexit. They helped to reduce the huge disparity in the costs that pubs and bars face, compared with supermarkets and off-licences.

The link between duty rates and alcohol consumption is tenuous, but we know that higher taxes on alcohol lead people to switch their drinking from well-regulated licensed premises to drinking at home, and from drinking lower strength beers and ciders to higher alcohol by volume wines and spirits.

Crucially, hospitality and retail business rate relief has meant that small and independent hospitality venues have received 75% off their business rates. That has made the difference for many between being able to continue and being forced to shut their doors for good.

The new Government made a lot of promises before the election, some of which they now seem to be trying to row back from, but pubs and hospitality need them to deliver now, starting with next week’s Budget. The Chancellor needs to start with a cut to alcohol duty. A return to the previous Labour Government’s approach of continuous duty rises would be devastating for many pubs and breweries. That could be done by widening the draught beer duty differential, cutting the cost of draught beers and ciders in pubs, bars and restaurants, and targeting support where it is desperately needed. Above all, the Chancellor needs to finally publish her replacement for business rates with a new system that is fair for the hospitality sector, which pays a disproportionate share of business rate receipts—

[Jamie Stone]

The hon. Gentleman mentions business rates. As the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (John Cooper) said, pubs are closing twice as fast in parts of Scotland than they are on this side of the border. Sir Tim Martin, the boss of Wetherspoons, has in recent days strongly criticised the Scottish Government for their deeply unhelpful attitude to rating. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the finger should be pointed north of the border too, and that something should be done before more pubs close?

[Mike Wood]

I certainly agree that, although in England the hospitality sector has long had a number of challenges, the picture north of the border is even worse because of decisions made by the Scottish Government.

It is essential that the Chancellor publishes the replacement for business rates. She announced three years ago that she would scrap them, but the sector is still no clearer about what she will bring in instead. It needs clarity next week. If for some reason, even after three years, the Chancellor still cannot say with what she is replacing business rates, she must commit to extending the 75% relief, and not just until next March or the March after but right up until a new system is in place.

Hospitality businesses are particularly impacted by high energy costs. The Government need to make good on the promises to help that they made before the election. The Prime Minister promised to take £53 billion off business energy bills by 2030. I ask the Minister a simple question: how much can hospitality businesses expect their energy bills to fall by next year?

Pubs and hospitality also need the Government to recognise the impact of regulation, no matter how well intentioned, on small hospitality businesses in particular. It was disappointing that neither the Deputy Prime Minister nor the Business Secretary seemed to acknowledge the warnings in their own impact assessment about the harms that could be caused to small businesses in sectors like hospitality by their employment legislation. Those fears are only made worse by reports the Government are considering further regulation, banning smoking in outdoor beer gardens and outside nightclubs. That change would have minimal, if any, health benefits while causing huge damage to venues. It could even have the perverse effect of shifting people from drinking outside in beer gardens to drinking and smoking more inside their homes.

Finally, as has been said, for the many pubs and hospitality venues that are just about getting by, the reported rise in employer’s national insurance contributions could tip many over the edge, making the difference between continuing and closing. If the Chancellor insists on going ahead with this highly damaging jobs tax, then it is even more important that the Government do more to support pubs and hospitality.

I again congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Leicestershire for bringing this debate, because pubs and hospitality are a force for good. They need and deserve our support.

10:42

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Gareth Thomas)]

In the usual way, let me take the opportunity to congratulate the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford) on securing this debate and celebrating the contribution of pubs to life in his constituency. He rightly talked about the contribution that pubs make to social mobility and the journey all the way up to manager that those who start out as pot washers can potentially make. I noted in particular his praise for the Curzon Arms and I can assure him we will consider that as the campaign stop for when we visit his constituency at the next election to try to increase our majority in this House. He, and I hope the whole House, will understand if I briefly praise pubs in my own constituency—the great Horseshoe, where I have been privileged to watch one or two great victories by the Welsh rugby union team, and the Trinity pub where we have celebrated one or two election successes in recent times.

I will not be able to do justice in the time available to me to the richness of the contributions that we have had, for which I apologise to hon. Members across the House. Notwithstanding, let me try to make one or two points and to pick up some of the specific questions that people have outlined. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool Riverside (Kim Johnson) celebrated her constituency’s many pubs and venues, some of which I have had the privilege to visit during what seems like Labour’s annual trip to her great city. Perhaps she might like to buy me a round when I next have to visit one of those pubs—[Hon. Members: “Freebies!”] [Laughter.] Perhaps not, then.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Dr Gardner) referenced the Labour in Vain pub in her constituency. I am happy to sit down with her and talk about what else might be possible for that pub. She is right to celebrate community-owned pubs; I suspect that she, like me, comes from the Co-operative tradition in our ranks. The Co-operative party has championed the ambitions of many of our communities to own their own pub.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Navendu Mishra), in his inimitable way, championed the contribution of pubs to the life of his constituents. I hope I will have the opportunity at some point to come up and take advantage of the hospitality there. My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Tom Hayes) rightly praised the contribution of business improvement districts to supporting the environment around pubs. The business improvement district in my constituency does a particularly important job working with the police to tackle antisocial behaviour, and I know that work is replicated in business improvement districts across the country. He made an ambitious claim that the best kebab in the country is found in his constituency—I wonder whether others might have a slightly different perspective.

My hon. Friend the Member for Southend East and Rochford (Mr Alaba), who is unfortunately not in his place, rightly championed the soft skills learned by those who work in the pub trade. My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Ms Minns) made an interesting speech—I was not sure quite where it was going to end with the reference to nationalisation, but I look forward to having the opportunity to find out a bit more about the unique history of the pubs in her constituency.

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray) underlined the role of pubs in his constituency and the crucial contribution that Scotch whisky makes not only to the Scottish economy, but to the UK economy as a whole. He will know of the work my right hon. Friend the Minister for Trade Policy and Economic Security is seeking to do to reduce some of the tariffs that Scotch whisky still faces around the world. If I heard him right, I think my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Joe Morris) promised to visit all 116 pubs in his constituency before the next election.

The hon. Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage) referenced previous work she had done with the Culture, Media and Sport Committee and I will reflect on her contribution and the Committee’s work outside this House, if I may. I hope to touch on the contributions of one or two other hon. Members as I make my way through some of the broader points, where appropriate.

This debate is important because our pubs and the wider hospitality sector are crucial to the UK economy, employing around 2.2 million people across 154,000 businesses and generating revenues of around £52 billion per annum.

[Steff Aquarone (North Norfolk) (LD)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He is making some important points about the employment generated by the sector. Does he agree that in areas such as North Norfolk, with a huge hospitality industry, greater training opportunities are vital to allow people to have full and flourishing careers in the hospitality sector? Are the Government supportive of extending that franchise?

[Gareth Thomas]

I congratulate the hon. Member on getting his constituency’s pubs into the debate. I look forward to having the opportunity to visit one or two of those in his constituency again. I will come back to the significant point about training, on which I hope we will have some good news for the pubs in his constituency and more generally.

Pubs and hospitality venues are important to local economies. They help to create vibrant towns and cities that we all want to visit, to study, work, live and invest. Pubs help us to celebrate the very essence of life and friendship, to socialise with family and friends, to enjoy music and great sport, and to celebrate the important points in life’s journey. They are crucial to supporting wider social objectives: providing accessible jobs, as other Members have already touched on, helping to support community cohesion and providing welcoming spaces for those who feel isolated and alone to enjoy the company of others.

In short, hospitality is the backbone of our high streets and the lifeblood of so many of our communities. We all know that hospitality businesses are still struggling. At the weekend, the Yorkshire Post published a survey suggesting some 500 pubs had closed in Yorkshire since 2019, which is just one indication of the challenges facing the pub and hospitality industry.

[Jamie Stone]

I value the Minister’s words. Does he accept my earlier point that those businesses could do with getting the eastern European and foreign workers they used to have?

[Gareth Thomas]

I heard the point the hon. Gentleman made, and I want to come to the issue of access to talent to work in pubs and hospitality venues. While we always need to consider issues around visas and the right to work, we can do more to help people in our country to get access to jobs in the pubs and hospitality industry. The point I intend to make in relation to the intervention by the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Steff Aquarone) is pertinent to that.

As I said, we all know that hospitality businesses are struggling to recover from the pandemic, where closures and customer restrictions decimated cash reserves and drove up levels of debt. I say this gently with so many Conservative Members present, but the subsequent cost of living crisis, which was driven in part by the incompetence of previous Governments, has compounded the challenge for hospitality businesses and increased costs, and it has caused real difficulties and challenges for businesses in repaying some of those debts. One thinks in particular of the contribution Liz Truss made to those issues.

[Robbie Moore]

I am sure the Minister will get to it, but I am really keen to understand some of the specifics of what he is doing in his role as the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade. What is the nature of his conversations with the Chancellor and the Treasury, specifically around business rates relief, VAT threshold, VAT duty, beer duty and the concerns raised by the likes of UKHospitality with the Employment Rights Bill? I am sure he is getting there, but this side of the House is keen to understand what he is doing in his role in the conversations with the Chancellor on the forthcoming Budget.

[Gareth Thomas]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving me the prompt to get on to the issues around the Budget next week. He will understand, as one or two of his colleagues alluded to earlier, that I will not speculate on what will or will not be included in the Chancellor’s Budget. However, I can say that we recognise the very important role that hospitality businesses play in supporting local economies and communities, and we understand the pressures facing those businesses. When we were in Opposition, one of the biggest complaints we heard from high street businesses was the unfairness of the antiquated system of business rates. I apologise to him—I appreciate it is difficult to hear—but I think one of the reasons his party lost the confidence of the business community was because it had made multiple promises to abolish or reform the business rates system, but never actually got to that issue.

Business rates are particularly unfair for hospitality, leisure and tourism businesses which, as others have alluded to, create 5% of the UK’s GDP but pay 15% of all business rates. Not only is the current system of business rates unfair, but we know that it disincentivises investment, creates uncertainty and places an undue burden on our highstreets, and in the context of this debate, on pubs and hospitality and venues. That is why we included in our manifesto a commitment to reform business rates, and it is why the Chancellor has continued to commit to setting out next steps on that at the next Budget.

[Esther McVey]

I would like to take away some comfort and be able to speak with my pub owners and pub landlords. Will the Minister commit today to speaking to the Chancellor about business rates before the Budget next week? I want him just to confirm that he will be making the representations from today’s debate to the Chancellor before the Budget.

[Gareth Thomas]

I am happy to confirm to the right hon. Lady and the whole House that I will ensure that the Treasury and the Chancellor are aware of the comments made in this debate. She will understand that crucial to the future of pubs and the hospitality industry is getting growth going in our country—in particular, getting more disposable income into the pockets of potential customers of pubs and other hospitality venues.

That is one reason the Prime Minister has made growth the number one mission of the Government. It is why we have already taken a series of steps to underline the significance of growth, from publishing a Green Paper on industrial strategy through to the success of the investment summit last week. It is also why we have introduced the package of measures to make work pay, including the Employment Rights Bill, which the House debated yesterday.

I want to pick up one or two specific points hon. Members made, in particular the reference by the hon. Member for North Norfolk to training. He may know that there has been much frustration across the business community, including from pubs and hospitality businesses, about how the apprenticeship levy works. We have committed to reforming that levy and to giving more focus to the skills needs of businesses.

That is one reason we have already established Skills England, which will have a new partnership with employers at its heart and will transform the existing apprenticeship levy into a more flexible growth and skills levy, to support business and boost opportunities for those living and working in the UK—something the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) will be pleased to hear.

Interventions from the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friends the Members for Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch (Katrina Murray) and for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh and the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) provide me with an opportunity to suggest gently that the Scottish Government might want to think again about their decision not to pass on the business rate relief to pubs that the Treasury in London sends them—

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

Order. Could the Minister start winding up his remarks?

[Gareth Thomas]

Lastly, Ms Vaz, Ofgem has announced a series of measures to protect non-domestic energy customers from poor behaviour by energy suppliers, which I hope will address some of the concerns that we heard on that issue.

[Mike Wood]

On a point of order, Ms Vaz. I should have drawn attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests before I spoke. I hope you will help me to get that on the record.

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

Yes, thank you. I call Peter Bedford to wind up.

10:58

[Mr Bedford]

I thank the many hon. Members who contributed to today’s debate. We certainly had lots of recommendations for pubs and hospitality venues across the United Kingdom.

Members who have heard the Minister’s response may be a little frustrated that we have not quite got the answers we wanted, particularly in respect of reforms to business rate relief, VAT, the apprenticeship levy, planning and licensing, or a commitment on national insurance and beer duty. I hope the Minister will make representations to the Chancellor and the Treasury to ensure that that vital aspect of support is implemented by the Government. In closing, I ask that the Chancellor, in her upcoming Budget, implements policies that will not hinder the sector, but enable it to flourish and grow.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered support for pubs and the hospitality sector.

Renewable Energy: Cornwall

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Westminster Hall

11:00

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

I will call Jayne Kirkham to move the motion and then the Minister to respond. There will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up, as is the convention for a 30-minute debate.

[Jayne Kirkham (Truro and Falmouth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the development of renewable energy in Cornwall.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Vaz. To achieve net zero by 2030, Britain needs Cornwall. If I get anything across in the next 15 minutes, I want everyone in this room to leave with full knowledge of, and enthusiasm for, the vast and unique scale of the opportunity in Cornwall for a large-scale, thriving renewable energy sector that creates skilled jobs, brings social value to local people and generates clean energy, helping us to meet that 2030 target. It is a challenge that will require both hands to grasp, but that does not faze the people of Cornwall, who have known a rich industrial past and do not need convincing of the positives of a new industrial future.

Our riches are plentiful and unique. They are buried under our rock, under the waves that surround our 400 miles of coast, in our harsh, whistling south-westerly winds and from our come-and-go solar rays. Harnessing those riches has not always been easy, but if industrialism literally runs through the Cornish landscape, in the tin-rich veins that pass through our granite, resourcefulness runs through the blood of the Cornish. Our geography and landscape are unique and fundamental to our potential. We are surrounded on three sides by the sea, in particular the Celtic sea, which has a great water depth—Falmouth is the third deepest harbour in the world. We are sitting on globally significant mineral deposits, and our granite holds the heat of geothermal energy.

Around 37% of Cornwall’s electricity is currently generated from renewable sources, and the renewable sector already exists here: it is cutting-edge, thriving and leads the way nationally and internationally. But it is nowhere near the scale that we need to make the most of the opportunities that exist.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Lady for bringing forward this debate. As she has outlined, it is clear that we need Cornwall to achieve net zero. But it is also worth remembering that the Secretary of State said in the Chamber that this is an object for every part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Many other constituencies need to contribute as well. The hon. Lady puts forward Cornwall; will she also remember other parts of the United Kingdom?

[Jayne Kirkham]

The hon. Gentleman is quite correct. My point is that Cornwall has some catching up to do with other parts of the country, but I am aware that other parts of the UK are in the same situation.

The Secretaries of State for the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero and for the Department for Business and Trade visited my constituency and that of my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (Perran Moon), earlier this year, and met businesses with solutions in the marine, geo, tidal and wind spheres. The breadth of the innovation in Cornwall is huge. However, the sector needs investment along with the ambition and determination, and a long-term strategy from Government to make that vision a reality.

Under the previous Government, there was a de facto ban on onshore wind. Of planning applications for onshore wind turbines over 150 kW in Cornwall since January 2015, only one was successful in planning and has since become operational. I am very pleased that one of the first things this Government did was to end that ban on onshore wind. Community energy projects did not receive much support from the previous Government either. The rural community energy fund was only open from 2019 to 2022, and there were no new funding sources for urban community energy projects after that, except from local government.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way and for the case she is making today. I fully endorse everything she has said. She mentioned the previous Government’s effective ban on onshore wind: does she agree that the Conservative Government also scrapped sustainable homes regulations and other regulations, setting us back many years? We have a lot of time to make up. In Cornwall especially, there is significant enthusiasm to accelerate the pace so that we can become the green peninsula and be recognised for that throughout the UK.

[Jayne Kirkham]

I thank the hon. Member. That is true particularly around standards on homes, where our local solutions for ground source heating could have been made more of in the past and have obviously now been delayed for that reason.

The feed-in tariffs introduced by the previous Labour Government were reduced several times by the last Government and then finally ended in 2019. Despite that, the community energy sector is resilient and has continued to grow. In my constituency, Ladock won the low carbon communities challenge, and Low Carbon Ladock was given £500,000 under one of the last Governments, which it invested in solar panels on homes, biomass boilers, and ground-source and air-source heat systems. It has been able to put the profits into things for the community, such as safer school crossings, playing fields and more renewables.

The current state of play in Cornwall is that there are 104 wind turbines, 88 solar projects and two operational geothermal sites. Twenty-two projects have been granted planning permission in 2023-24 to date, including one geothermal, one onshore wind, eight battery and 12 solar photovoltaic projects. A further 22 projects have submitted planning applications in 2023-24, three of which are geothermal, four onshore wind, six battery and nine solar.

[Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the time to act in Cornwall is right now? We have the US State Department, which is very interested in our renewable opportunities, and representatives from France coming to Cornwall. It would be a crying shame if our Government did not use the advantages available to make Cornwall a renewable energies cluster.

[Jayne Kirkham]

I agree that the opportunities are vast. We have all heard incredible enthusiasm from the Secretary of State for DESNZ in particular about grasping those opportunities for Cornwall with both hands. I am pleased that that will hopefully happen.

We already know and recognise the potential for wind and solar in Cornwall. The Duchy benefits from regular south-westerly winds, which would complement those in other parts of the country. Solar has its place as well. Much of it in my constituency at present is comprised of large solar farms that cluster around the spot where the power supply is broken down into smaller distribution networks. That is only halfway down Cornwall at Indian Queens. The community benefits of those schemes are mixed, and developers have tended to focus on agricultural land that has previously been used for crops—grade 3b land, which is used for potatoes, cauliflowers and daffodils among other things.

We have geothermal solutions as well, both grid-connected with contracts for difference in place and planning permissions, such as for Geothermal Engineering Ltd, and offgrid, such as Kensa heat pumps, which I mentioned earlier. At present, there are two deep geothermal wells with the potential for three more on council farms. Geothermal is a base source producing energy day and night, and whichever way the wind blows, and the 190° water that comes out of the wells has a great scope to heat homes.

It is worth noting that there is significant Cornish capability for developing tidal streams in the UK, Europe and beyond, such as Inyanga Marine Energy Group in my constituency. There is rising demand for clean energy from critical industries such as the tech metals industry and from new communities in my constituency, such as the build of Langarth garden village.

Cornwall is blessed to have resources of tin, lithium and geothermal heat that are simply not available anywhere else. Tin is used in the manufacture of virtually every single electrical device that we use, and it is crucial to our transition to a fossil-free economy. Demand for tin over the past decade or so has driven prices even higher —so much so that is now commercially viable to reopen some of our historical mines. Investment is already coming into Cornwall, most demonstrably at South Crofty mine, where pumping out water from the flooded mine chamber is already well underway, and that of course uses an awful lot of energy.

Lithium, which is a vital component of electric vehicle batteries, is another critical mineral that we have in abundance in Cornwall. We currently import 100% of our lithium, and yet Cornwall has the largest lithium deposits in Europe. We have enough to extract 50,000 tonnes per year. Those critical minerals are currently imported from east Asia and Latin America, where they are mined in a hugely damaging way. The process in Cornwall is completely different. There is a great story to tell here: we have a way to feed the new battery factory in Somerset and to give a shot in the arm to our automotive industry without being reliant on foreign imports in a more dangerous geopolitical environment.

Floating offshore wind in the Celtic sea is the next frontier in the UK’s clean energy transition. We are positioned to unlock up to 4 GW of power by 2035, which is enough to power 4 million homes. There are huge opportunities here for Cornwall, as the Celtic sea is all around us. The ambition to put floating offshore wind in the Celtic sea, where it would complement other offshore arrays, and the opportunities that would arise from it for Cornwall to expand supply chains, the economy and the number of good, skilled jobs are vast.

However, to be brutal, ambition is so far all that it is. Test and demonstration models are planned and ready to go—smaller, non-commercial pilot projects that prove the technology works to give confidence to investors— but the most ready is stalled by too low a price from previous contracts for difference rounds, while others are stalled by planning issues.

[Noah Law (St Austell and Newquay) (Lab)]

We know the Cornish economy to be more dependent on small and medium-sized enterprises than elsewhere in the UK; the same is true of the supply chain for our great, burgeoning renewable energy industry. Does my hon. Friend agree that the organs of industrial strategy must be attuned to the need for building a supply chain based on those SMEs and the very specific needs of those growth businesses?

[Jayne Kirkham]

Absolutely—scaling up and providing the skills that are required need to be done extremely quickly. It is a race against time to remove the barriers and kick-start those projects; then, the Crown Estate, the Government and GB Energy must work together to provide a feasible timeline of contracts for difference and leasing rounds, as well as doing the groundwork by investing in the surveys and the infrastructure, such as cabling and the grid, so that investors will come on board.

Our Cornish ports and harbours, such as Falmouth, are well placed to support floating offshore wind, with well-established marine engineering solutions, servicing, assembly and maintenance. They also have a huge role to play in decarbonising shipping and defence.

This Government have already ended the de facto ban on onshore wind, and have plans for doubling onshore wind, trebling solar and quadrupling offshore wind, as well as reforming the planning system. With Cornish Lithium’s Hard Rock plant recently designated a nationally significant site of strategic infrastructure, planning could be streamlined and fast-tracked. GB Energy has been working with the Crown Estate to invest in the infrastructure that will make floating offshore wind happen and provide the certainty to draw in investment. Our new local power plan will provide £3.3 billion for grants and loans for those local energy projects—the biggest expansion in community-owned energy in history. This will enable communities to own—in the realest sense—the energy they rely on and allow local authorities, such as Cornwall, to exploit the energy sources on our doorstep, like the geothermal assets on council land that could be heating homes.

[Tom Hayes (Bournemouth East) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is giving an excellent speech in which she is once again standing up for her communities and clean power. Does she agree that the cost of living crisis—the worst in a generation, driven by the energy shock—will cast a long shadow for as long as we remain exposed to fossil fuels, and that we must embrace British-based nuclear and Cornwall renewables? The faster we go, the more secure we become. On the point about ground source heat pumps, can she say a little about Kensa, which manufactures heat pumps in Cornwall? I was privileged to see its heat pumps last week at the Sutton Dwellings in Chelsea. They are an amazing technology.

[Jayne Kirkham]

Yes, of course. I thank my hon. Friend for drawing attention to that business, which is on the edge of my constituency. I agree that we have to embrace all sorts of energy sources—the urgency is definitely there. Kensa is one of the largest manufacturers of ground source heat pumps in Europe, but it is currently stymied by regulation and the future homes standard. Hopefully it will be able to grow in the future.

Big challenges still remain. We need to get ready for floating offshore wind in the Celtic sea; there is a risk of places such as Cornwall losing out if we are not prepared. The grid network unites renewables businesses in Cornwall because of the capacity of the distribution network, which is a key barrier and constraint to growth. There is a lack of capacity and a slow speed, and the main grid stops at Indian Queens, which is only half-way into Cornwall. We need to upgrade those transmission and distribution networks. There are significant delays to accessing grid connections for projects such as onshore charging, the energy required by the potential new Kensa factory, and tin and lithium mining.

The National Energy System Operator is newly nationalised. There will be a connections action plan to decrease the time it takes to get connected to the grid. We will need to front-load the work, do the surveys, and lay the cables to plug in all those power sources. There is currently no strategic national plan for that infrastructure.

Vital plans to lay floating offshore wind cables, and the previous Government’s miserly £160 million FLOWMIS—the floating offshore wind manufacturing investment scheme—fund for ports, were awarded with no national strategy in place. The current Government has a £1.8 billion ports fund, which is welcome. However, the French Government have just put €900 million into the port of Brest—that is the equivalent of half our entire national ports fund for the next ten years invested in just one French port. We need a coherent plan for our ports.

One of the test and demonstration models is being held up by planning, as are other projects. We need to look at planning, as well as at the huge number of skilled workers who are needed but lacking for renewables in the energy sector and to retrofit for the warm homes plan.

The Crown Estate has partnered with Falmouth marine school to pay for children aged 14 to 16 from Helston community college to receive level 2 engineering training in the sphere of offshore wind. That is a pilot; there is no ongoing funding. It is great, but it will not address the massive skills gap. We need a huge scale-up. We have great local further education providers—Truro and Penwith college and Cornwall college—but they need the ability to scale up in conjunction with the industry.

There is no national oversight of the map around the country of floating offshore wind for the future, no timescale for “test and demos”, and no pipeline of contracts with the Crown Estate to build the Celtic sea out so that the investors have certainty. We can use contractual tie-ins with the lease, and we can use procurement, but national coordinated action is needed now. We also need new domestic production targets for critical minerals.

We are ready to be the multi-renewable power production capital of the UK. It is a vision of vast scale, which is not without challenges, but it shows that Cornwall is crucial because of what we offer, rather than what we need. It is time for us to step up and become the multi-renewable power production capital of the UK.

11:17

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Kerry McCarthy)]

It is always a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Vaz. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) for securing this debate and the other Members for their contributions. It is good to see a clean sweep of new MPs in Cornwall, although my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) is a familiar face from days gone by. The passion of hon. Members for the region shines through, and all six MPs are brilliant advocates for Cornwall’s sheer potential.

I want to note the recent letter from the four Labour MPs in Cornwall to the Minister for Industry, the hon. Member for Croydon West (Sarah Jones), concerning the need for investment in the county. As the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth mentioned, the Minister for Industry and the Secretary of State for Business and Trade have visited the region recently. I know that both are aware of the county’s incredible potential for economic and industrial growth. I understand that the four MPs will be meeting my colleague, the Minister for Industry, very soon to discuss the issues raised in the letter.

My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth will be aware that one of the Prime Minister’s five missions for national renewal is making Britain a clean energy superpower, including delivering clean power by 2030 and accelerating to net zero. As has been mentioned, we have wasted no time in getting started. Within our first 100 days in government, we lifted the onshore wind ban in England, consented to more nationally significant solar projects than had been consented to in the past 14 years, and delivered the most successful renewables auction in British history. Now we are busy setting up Great British Energy, which will drive clean energy deployment, creating jobs, boosting energy independence and ensuring that UK taxpayers, bill payers and communities reap the benefits of clean, secure, home-grown energy. As we heard, Cornwall has a vital role to play in that clean energy mission, and indeed our mission to secure economic growth.

Cornwall may be primarily known as a tourist destination these days, but it has a proud industrial past. It was once known as the mining capital of the world, with tin mining and clay, and was where Richard Trevithick invented the high-pressured steam engine. As much as tourism is welcomed in Cornwall, we know that it puts pressure on the local infrastructure and economy, particularly the housing supply, which then has a knock-on effect on public services in the area.

From meeting local businesses in Cornwall when I went down with the now Chief Secretary to the Treasury last year, I know that there is excitement about the opportunities offered by Cornwall’s huge industrial potential from wind, geothermal, lithium and more. Great work is already being done through the continuing development of a local area energy plan in Cornwall and Isles of Scilly, and the Government are doing what they can to support the region too. Last September, three geothermal projects, all located in Cornwall, were successful in our contracts for difference auction for the first time, with contracts totalling 12 MW of generation. As part of my visit to Cornwall last year, I also went to see some of the exciting work that the Eden Project is doing on geothermal.

Critical minerals have been mentioned as an important area for future industrial development. Cornwall has some of the largest critical mineral deposits, with research showing that the county alone could meet more than half the UK’s 2030 demand for lithium, which is an essential part of the electric vehicle battery supply chain. As we transition to a renewables-based economy, the demand for critical minerals will only grow, and I note the concerns that have been raised about current sourcing and the need to diversify supply. Indeed, Cornwall is home to at least three of the 18 critical minerals, and I hope that local MPs, in the meeting with my hon. Friend the Minister for Industry, can further discuss how we can take advantage of all that Cornwall has to offer on that front.

The county is perfectly placed to take advantage because of its strong mining heritage—I was interested to hear what my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth said about the potential for reopening tin mines—as well as a growing supply chain, skilled workforce and supportive local government. It has the support of national Government too. In 2023, the UK Infrastructure Bank’s first equity deal was an equity investment of approximately £24 million to support Cornish Lithium in the development of the UK’s critical minerals supply chain.

One of the most exciting areas with huge potential is the floating offshore wind that my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth talked about, which would enable turbines to be set up where the seabed is too deep for traditional fixed-bottom turbines. A new report from the floating offshore wind taskforce says that the UK’s floating wind industry will be able to support 97,000 jobs by 2050, contributing £47 billion to our economy, and we want Cornwall to have a proper stake in that via the Celtic sea.

I reassure Members present that we want to do all we can to support floating wind infrastructure and supply chains to develop the Celtic sea, to ensure that we get the floating wind pipeline built and bring jobs and growth to the area. As part of leasing round 5, the Crown Estate has launched a £10 million supply chain accelerator fund, focused on capturing some of the economic opportunities identified by the Celtic sea blueprint. A further £40 million has been earmarked, which could be deployed on further opportunities nationally.

More broadly speaking, Members present will know that last week, the Chancellor announced that the UK Infrastructure Bank is becoming the national wealth fund. Capitalised with £27.8 billion, it will have additional financial capacity and an enhanced risk budget, as well as an expanded remit beyond infrastructure in support of the Government’s industrial strategy. At least £5.8 billion of the national wealth fund’s capital will focus on priority sectors, including ports infrastructure, which I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth will be pleased to hear.

Also last week, we published in a Green Paper our vision for a modern industrial strategy—Invest 2035. That is a credible 10-year plan to deliver the certainty and stability that businesses need to invest in high-growth sectors. It will help us create a pro-business environment and support high-potential clusters across the country. It will channel support to eight growth-driving sectors, including clean energy industries, and it will support those sectors to create high-quality, well paid jobs across the country, backed by employment rights fit for a modern economy.

If the plan is to be a success, it needs to be designed and implemented in lockstep with local and regional leaders. That is particularly important in places such as Cornwall, where we are looking at reindustrialisation to an extent, rather than building on current industrial clusters. We will explore how to build on existing place-based initiatives, how to create the best pro-business environment possible in city regions and high-potential clusters, and how to identify, select and intervene in industrial sites to make them magnets for globally mobile investment.

As I said, unlocking Cornwall’s potential is slightly different from going into other areas. That is absolutely key. Planning was mentioned; we must undo some of the blockages in the planning system. In relation to the grid, I very much remember, from when I visited, the knock-on impact of the fact that the transmission line goes only as far as Indian Queens. Until we create the grid infrastructure to cover the right areas and provide sufficient capacity, we cannot deliver on Cornwall’s potential. I think that one of the things holding the Eden Project back with its geothermal work was that it could not get that broader grid connection. The former chief executive of the Climate Change Committee, Chris Stark, has been put in charge of the mission board, and one of his key tasks is to bring in a more strategic approach to grid planning, speed it up and stop those blockages that mean that projects just do not get off the ground because they are stuck in that system.

Skills are also a very important issue, on which I hope we can have continued engagement. I think I am due to meet my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth next week to follow up on some of these issues. I want to reassure her and colleagues that our doors are always open, in terms of discussing these things, and I will return to my original point that I share the excitement that Cornwall has huge potential. I think we want a more balanced economy—

[Perran Moon]

Looking at Cornwall, we have mentioned floating offshore wind, onshore wind, geothermal, tidal, solar, lithium, tin and manganese. Can the Minister name anywhere else in the UK where there is such a distillation of critical minerals and renewable energy opportunities? I am very excited by what she said about the cluster concept. Would not Cornwall be an ideal place to be an official cluster for renewables and critical minerals?

[Kerry McCarthy]

I am not sure that we quite have an official badge of cluster; we just have clusters, but yes, I think Cornwall is different in terms of the geography and the current use of the land and we have to approach it in a sensitive way, and one in which we might not have to approach areas that currently are perhaps transitioning from traditional fossil fuel industries to the clean industries of the future. This area is bringing something that, to an extent, is genuinely buried in the land—the industrial heritage there. It has so much potential. The question is how we can work across Departments, starting with my own, DESNZ, but also bringing in other Departments that can unlock that potential. I am sure that the brilliant advocates that there are in the region will all be pushing, and I really hope that we can see swift progress, because clean power by 2030 is such an important part of the Government’s mission and I do not think we can do it without Cornwall playing its part.

Question put and agreed to.

11:28

Sitting suspended.

Whistleblowing Protections

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Westminster Hall

[Sir Mark Hendrick in the Chair]

14:30

[Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered protections for whistleblowing.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for today’s debate, Sir Mark. This week is Whistleblower Awareness Week, so it is a very timely debate, and one that is long overdue. For as long as there has been misconduct in public activity, there have been brave individuals willing to put their head above the parapet and highlight a problem. There have been brave individuals who have sought to shine a light on the dark recesses of corruption, and those who have said, “Up with this I will not put.”

We would normally think of those people as whistleblowers. We would think of them as being protected in some way, because we talk about protection for whistleblowers as if it is some sort of universal activity. It has, however, been shown to me, as somebody who is relatively new to the world of whistleblowing, that depending on how someone blows the whistle, on their relationship with the organisation about which they are highlighting a problem, and on the way in which they disclose that information, they could or could not be a whistleblower. I shall focus on that today. I shall also talk about the positive steps that the new Government have already committed to, and where I think there is an opportunity for further development of protections for whistleblowing. I will talk about a solution to some of the problems, which I know that people who are interested in the subject are particularly concerned about.

Over the last couple of decades, we have witnessed many problems, challenges and scandals. Those that are timely and pertinent today include the Horizon Post Office scandal, the infected blood scandal, the tragedy of Grenfell, and the scandal of personal protective equipment NHS contracts and public waste. We often talk about whistleblowing after the event, after somebody has said, “This is a problem and we should do something about it.” The problem that leaves is that the damage is already done. We then have to say to those people that although they are doing the right thing, it could come at considerable personal cost and detriment to their character and standing. Ultimately, because of the way in which the current law is written, it could be boiled down to a dispute that ends up in an employment tribunal focusing on the relationship between the whistleblower and the organisation they are highlighting concern about, rather than the act that they were raising concern about in the first place. That leaves a whole series of problems that we need to address. I think there is a way of doing that through new laws, which I will talk about slightly later on in my remarks.

Like many of my colleagues here this afternoon, I come from a trade union background. Too often, whistleblowers end up in a situation akin to the blacklisting of trade union officials. People are willing to stand up and say the right thing, but then find themselves penalised within their sector and get labelled as the bad apple, the troublemaker or the person who has all too often tried to agitate and cause concern, when they are simply seeking to highlight something that is bad and wrong. That puts them at great risk, because the question then becomes, “Do I speak up?” Do they speak up about the bad thing that they see happening? Do they draw attention to misconduct or dereliction of public duty, or do they quietly get along with their job and life and keep their head down? The existing protections for whistleblowers do not give people the confidence to stand up and make that declaration, because of fear for their livelihood, job prospects, career and family. It is often a case of David versus Goliath, where an individual has bravely put their head above the parapet and said, “This is a problem.” Suddenly, the entire resources of large organisations are brought to bear against them.

[Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) on obtaining this important debate on whistleblowing, under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. I know from speaking recently to a couple of constituents who are whistleblowers that part of the fear of speaking up, which my hon. Friend rightly highlights, is the imbalance of power between public institutions and the individual whistleblower.

The costs, as my hon. Friend said, are heavy on the individual. They can obviously be emotional, due to the stress of these processes. They can also be financial, when the individual tries to maintain their reputation against the full force of public institutions defending themselves and taking the matter through the courts. Those institutions have full access to public funds, which costs the taxpayer a lot.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Prime Minister’s promise of a duty of candour could be a step forward in changing that imbalance of power between public institutions and whistleblowers? Hopefully, in time, if the public sector takes that duty of candour seriously, we can reduce the need for whistleblowers to call things out.

[Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)]

I remind Members that interventions are supposed to be brief.

[Gareth Snell]

My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) is absolutely right. We will not mention individual cases today, but we all know of individuals who have struggled doughtily against the huge available resources of large international corporations—public sector bodies in some cases—that have sought to use the weight and resource available to them, through their lawyers and HR departments, issuing threats and intimidation, to prevent people pursuing things they have seen and done that they know to be wrong. The organisations would rather spend that energy, time, money and effort on dismissing the whistleblower’s concern than put that resource into remedying the situation. The way my hon. Friend explained that was first class.

I want to talk about something that I found out relatively recently, as part of my work with WhistleblowersUK. I did not know that to be a whistleblower, the person has to be engaged in an employment role. I genuinely believed that the whistleblowing policies of organisations that someone had an attachment to would protect them if they saw something going wrong. I thought that if someone saw something they believed was bad—such as corruption, malfeasance, misconduct—and did the right thing by standing up and calling it out, as we all say we should, they would be protected, but they are not.

If a patient in hospital sees something, they are not protected. If a parent sees something wrong with a school, college, university or one of the many organisations their children might interact with, they are not protected. If someone is a school governor, although they have various requirements under safeguarding legislation, they are actually exposed in a way they might not be if they were employed. The contractual arrangements for contractors on site, who see the way that organisations work, would not provide protection. That is a glaring, gaping hole in protections, which we need to tackle.

That means that, when somebody does have the fortitude to stand up and say, “This is wrong,” it often ends up in an employment tribunal. The focus then is on the process by which the whistleblower raised the complaint and the detriment that individual may have incurred; it does not deal with the issue about which they were raising a flag. Again, that allows organisations to shift the emphasis and the attention of their own internal processes to that relationship rather than focusing on the issue that was raised. I think the Minister would agree that that needs to change.

The Minister knows that the new Government have made commitments, particularly through the Duty of Candour Bill, to make sure that individuals who have responsibilities in certain organisations and areas have a duty—a clear duty—to stand up and say, “This is wrong.” There also needs to be protection for that individual, so that when they comply with their new duty of candour responsibilities they can also be protected from detriment, regardless of the way in which they make that declaration to somebody who they believe can do something about it. At the moment, they are horribly exposed, which means there is a disincentive for them to do the right thing. It also means that we end up with people who, for a quiet life, would rather dismiss what they see than stand up.

It was only last night, when we were debating the Employment Rights Bill, that the Deputy Prime Minister said, in relation to the new sexual harassment arrangements for whistleblowers in the Bill:

“If they do the right thing and speak up about sexual harassment, the law will protect them.” —[Official Report, 21 October 2024; Vol. 755, c. 53.]

I believe that should apply to anybody who is speaking up to highlight any problem, and not just to those who are employees where they see sexual harassment.

I welcome the fact that the Government have started a conversation about this issue and that they have taken steps, through the Employment Rights Bill, to remedy some of the deficiencies in our employment legislation. However, I return to my point: this needs to be about more than employment. It needs to be about the way we treat anyone who is willing to stand up, have their say and point out wrongdoing.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business and Trade was also quite clear last night when he summed up the debate on the Employment Rights Bill, saying:

“Protection for whistleblowers is a day one right.” —[Official Report, 21 October 2024; Vol. 755, c. 140.]

I am glad that we are putting that into legislation, but I say again that it only applies to those people who are whistleblowing in an employment-related context. We need to make sure that that “day one right” of protection applies to anyone who blows the whistle anywhere in the UK.

Obviously, there has been progression. The Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 made some progress. However, I think it is fair to say that, in and of itself, its time has probably passed, and that there is a need to reconsider seriously how to improve the opportunities for whistleblowers to make declarations in a way that they are comfortable with and that protects them, so that people who see wrongdoing have the confidence to stand up and point it out as a preventive measure, as much as a curative measure after the event.

From my trade union days, I know that my hon. Friend the Minister did admirable work on this issue before he came to this place. Where someone has the confidence that they can speak truth to power, they can stop bad things from happening in the first place. When someone has the confidence that they will be listened to and protected, that encourages people to come forward and highlight problems before there is that horrible accident at work or that social tragedy, or before an act of misconduct costs the state hundreds, thousands and in some cases millions of pounds, which is obviously money that we can ill afford to lose after the inheritance we received from the previous Government.

How can we make the situation better? I ask that question because I genuinely believe that if we are to have this kind of debate, we should talk not only about what the problems are but about how we can make things better. Later in this Parliament I hope to introduce a new version of the Protection for Whistleblowing Bill—a Bill that will comprehensively rewrite the current rules and regulations around whistleblowing. First of all, it will comprehensively define what a whistleblower is, because at the moment that is a point of debate, and because it is a point of debate we end up in litigation and arbitration, with individuals finding that they have to justify why they made a disclosure in the first place rather than everyone focusing on what the disclosure was. We absolutely need to find a way of moving away from that situation.

Such a Bill would also create a statutory power to protect whistleblowers from detriment. I say, again with my trade union hat on, that we all know that financial recompense for suffering a detriment is the only way we can remedy such detriment, but that person has still suffered a detriment; they have still had a loss as a result of their whistleblowing. So, we need to find a way to prevent the loss in the first place.

The Bill would be able to look at how we do compensation and would have a statutory power to investigate and award penalties. Importantly, it would create the office of the whistleblower. The idea of such an office is neat and clear and something that my party has previously committed to in other debates and votes. The office would be able to put that comforting arm around people who blow the whistle, regardless of where or how they blow it. It would allow parity between those large organisations, or the state, with their HR departments, lawyers and resources, and an organisation and office that acts as a friend, support and neutral crutch on which the whistleblower could lean. All too often being a whistleblower takes its toll on that person’s family, and it can be lonely and scary. An office of the whistleblower would allow that burden to be shared with an organisation, an entity, an office that has an understanding of what the whistleblower is doing and hoping to achieve. It would also be able to look across organisations and spot the patterns. All too often, whistleblowers stand up and make a declaration about something over here, and somebody else will make a declaration over there, but nobody is looking at the patterns and asking, “Is there some underlying issue that we need to address?”

The office of the whistleblower would be responsible for identifying those patterns and generating reports saying whether something untoward might be happening in that organisation, part of the state or public sector body. That would be an important way of bringing that preventive measure to bear so that we can crack down on the waste, corruption and malfeasance. We can ensure that those individuals seeking to corrupt the way they work for their own personal benefit can be highlighted and brought to bear.

Creating the office would require the Government to act. It would require primary legislation as well as the political will to say that we need to catch up with some of our European counterparts who have already moved into this space of having an office of the whistleblower. Crucially, the Minister will be aware that only 18 months ago my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra), when she was shadowing the brief that the Minister now holds, clearly committed the Labour party to supporting an office of the whistleblower. The Labour party supported an amendment to the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 that would have created an office of the whistleblower. I appreciate that the Minister cannot make a commitment from his position today because of the way that Government works, but I hope he will take away from the debate the commitments made in the past and the way in which the Labour party—now in government—understood the necessity of such an office, and how that has not changed. I ask whether he and his Department could review what the likelihood would be of taking that forward.

There have been reviews of the way that whistleblowing works over time. I understand that the review of the whistleblowing framework by the previous Government was completed in January. That report has not yet been published. Again, will the Minister undertake to go back to his Department, find that report and potentially publish it? If the report is deficient in some way and the review of the framework has not been undertaken in as comprehensive a way as we would all like, would he commit to refreshing it? Even if we cannot move as fast as I would like towards the outcome that I would like, would he look at reviewing the framework so that people at work, or not at work, who witness corruption, malfeasance or acts that endanger public safety have the confidence to say, “This is wrong”? If they can have the knowledge that somebody somewhere is standing with them, and that they have the support of a Government who take this seriously, we could move quickly towards a country where the scandals I mentioned at the beginning—with the devastating events that took place—could be prevented and we could all live happier, safer and better lives.

[Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)]

I remind Members to bob if they wish to be called.

14:49

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) for setting the scene. I have said it to him before, but it really is a pleasure to see him back in the House and in his place. We had a friendship when he was here before, and it is good to see him back and working energetically on behalf of his constituents. I also thank him and the other members of the all-party parliamentary group for whistleblowing for their continued interest in this important subject.

I said to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central that I wanted to give an example of someone who was a whistleblower—a good friend of mine—and explain how it affected him. The hon. Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) referred to the effect that whistleblowing can have on health. My friend is dead and gone now, and anything I say will be complimentary to him and his family. It is important that, as his friend, I recall his commitment to whistleblowing and the fact that it was traumatic for him in every way.

As I say, my first experience of whistleblowing came with my childhood friend. I call him the late, great Brian Little, because he was. He and I went to school together; we grew up in Ballywalter village back in Northern Ireland. As often happens, we went to school, left school and did not see each other for 20-odd years, then all of a sudden we came together again and our friendship was renewed and reinvigorated. We caught up as our families grew up and other things happened.

I should have said before that it is nice to see the Minister in his place—I wish him well in his role—and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Orpington (Gareth Bacon).

Brian was a giant in battling for the underdog, and I miss him greatly to this day. As someone who has always taken for granted the ability to speak the truth and get respect for that, it was a great shock for me to see my friend brought so low for simply doing the right thing. That is what happened to him. He was a whistleblower. I will not go into the details of what it was or the company involved—that would be inappropriate —but the doing the right thing had such an effect on him, and he felt constrained that he had to do it. He lost almost everything, but he worked hard to get it back. He suffered from anxiety and depression, which, as the hon. Member for Shipley mentioned, is how whistleblowing affects people sometimes. He was physically broken by it, when all he did was highlight something that was incorrect in a big company. He did his job, and all of a sudden he suffered for that.

I supported Brian in his fight, and he supported me in the House with his expertise in financial matters. I have to be honest: his expertise fed into any speeches on financial issues that I made a few years ago. He had incredible knowledge of banking issues, the regulation of markets and financial matters. I miss his wise counsel greatly. He died quite suddenly on a Thursday in his daughter’s home. I perhaps had not realised just how many things he had done. He had helped so many people from all over this great United Kingdom—from Scotland, Wales, England and all across Northern Ireland—with their financial issues. The sympathy letters and emails that came in to express shock at his passing were testament to his ability to understand people and help them. He spent the latter years of his life in this world doing right, and literally hundreds of people owe him so much, as I do.

The experience of Brian and all that his family, particularly his wife Jacqui, who is still living, went through in his battle for justice highlighted to me that we certainly do not have it right in our battle for protection of whistleblowers. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central is right to bring forward this debate, because the issue is key to many people across this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I recall with fondness those who dared to stand up and be counted, and that is why I am here to support this debate. I am sure others will give similar examples.

The issue is clear, as a cursory glance at the number of whistleblowing cases ongoing in Northern Ireland shows. As you know, Mr Chairman, I always give the Northern Ireland perspective. I want to give that perspective to this debate and ultimately enable the Minister and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Orpington (Gareth Bacon), to help with the questions that are being asked and how we can protect whistleblowers better.

We have had complaints in Northern Ireland on issues from covid information to Northern Ireland Water paying millions to contractors for work that had not been carried out, and on a host of issues in between. In each of these cases, it is clear that the current whistleblowing legislation is not robust enough to allow the little man or little woman to take on the big corporations. I think this is what the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central is seeking to have. I am looking to the Minister because I am pretty sure, if he does not mind me saying so, that he will be able to give us some reassurance on this issue.

While I welcome the steps proposed in the Employment Rights Bill on enhanced protections from harassment in the workplace, I feel—and I mean this gently, and honestly, and in a constructive fashion—that more could be done in the Bill to enhance protections and to ensure there is support for those who dare to speak truth to power. Truth is incredibly powerful, but it is how that truth can be expressed and how that whistleblower can get the answers, and be protected, and not be sanctioned or picked on because he or she had the guts to get up and do it.

We are all aware there are whistleblowing cases that amount to perhaps no more than a grudge against an employer, but those cases should not strip protection and support from those who are putting their necks on the line to protect the public interest and what we need to know. If something is wrong in a big company or a big corporation, it takes a lot of courage and a lot of guts to take that stand. It is my opinion that greater support should be available financially for those who determine to take those steps.

In relation to Northern Ireland I am very keen that, when summing up, the Minister gives some idea of how we can build upon this debate in a constructive fashion working with the Minister who has responsibility for this at the NI Assembly and, moving forward, how we exchange ideas on this with the regions. I look to the Minister—he is an honourable man—and ask what enhanced support we can provide for those genuine whistleblowers who are doing the public a service and who have no house to remortgage to pay legal fees, because current policies simply do not cut it.

My friend Brian had to self-fund his battle; that battle for rights, that battle for justice, that battle against the wrongdoing that he had the courage to highlight, and he was penalised for that. He ended up selling the family home to pay the legal fees. It was a quite extensive family farm. I knew his mum and dad and the family, as one comes to over the years, and it had been an ancestral home, in the family for generations, but it had to go to pay the bill. He was on the right side, but to prove he was right he had to stick fast and it cost him. I think it is true to say that he never fully got over that loss. However, Brian was a Christian and I know that his faith in God was one of the things that kept him going, even though financially, physically and emotionally, he was perhaps not the same person that I went to school with many years ago. Too many people simply do not have those kinds of money-raising facilities and also do not have the David versus Goliath mentality that Brian had. He knew that he could take on the giant because he was not alone. He finally won his case, but the effects on him were dramatic. I believe the message from this Chamber today needs to be clear: you are not alone when you do the right thing.

14:59

[Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) on bringing this really important debate to the House. I was reflecting on the number of different Departments involved in trying to tackle the issue, so I do not envy the Minister, but I hope that he will take the messages back to the other Departments that are connected, because I want to focus particularly on the NHS.

We know that the courageous people we have heard about, who blow the whistle, protect us and our communities, yet we do not offer them the same protection—that is the nub of the problem. As I said, I want to focus particularly on the NHS, because we have seen many examples—I will not go through them all—where someone in the NHS whistleblows and their career is in effect over, or very badly damaged, as a result. I want to raise that alarm to the House, and I hope the Minister will ensure that these messages are relayed to the Department of Health and Social Care.

In too many cases, whistleblowers face sanctions at work or threats, and the toll that takes on people’s mental health is enormous, as we heard described eloquently by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). Before this Parliament, I was a member of the Public Accounts Committee for a total of 13 years, including nine years as Chair, and back in 2014, when I was a member of the Committee, we looked into whistleblowing and found that there had been failure

“to protect some whistleblowers from being victimised.”

That puts it mildly. We recommended then that where the identity of whistleblowers is known, steps must be taken to

“ensure that they are protected, supported and have their welfare monitored.”

We said that that should include providing whistleblowers with

“support and advice, such as access to legal and counselling services.”

We also highlighted the fact that too often whistleblowers were “unclear” about who to raise their concerns with, and we recommended “a route map” that showed different

“internal and external reporting routes.”

The Government at the time agreed with the recommendations about a route map, but they deferred further action on whistleblowing policies across the NHS, as they were being considered separately through Sir Robert Francis’s Freedom to Speak Up review. That was a reasonable response from the Government at the time. But then I became Chair of the Public Accounts Committee and we revisited the issue of whistleblowing—and guess what? We were disappointed at the slow progress. If I had been paid £10 for every time I had to use that phrase in that role, I would probably not be here now but sunning myself in the Caribbean, because “too slow progress” is often the mantra.

We now have a new Government, with a new Employment Rights Bill, and I hope we will see further progress. We were not really convinced that change had happened on the ground and we were also very clear that whistleblowing is a sign of complete failure of the system. We should not have to have whistleblowing policies, because modern institutions that work well should have routes whereby complaints, concerns and issues are raised as a matter of routine. I will come to some good work in other sectors in a moment, but we found generally that there was not enough focus on whistleblowing in the wider public sector. The Francis review of the health sector highlighted the need for effective whistleblowing policies not just in the health sector, but more widely.

Earlier this year, the Public Accounts Committee revisited whistleblowing again—it seems to be a bit of a theme—and still we stressed the need to embed a “Speak up” environment. We were looking particularly at whistleblowing in the civil service at that point, but the lessons read across, sadly. The National Audit Office found earlier this year that just 52% of people in the civil service

“think it is safe to challenge the way things are done”.

That was from a review of the responses to the 2022 civil service people survey—that is a bit of a mouthful. The National Audit Office also highlighted the number in the NHS with the same concern—61.5%. That was in 2024, so this year. Less than two thirds of NHS workers think it is safe to challenge the way things are done; lots of work needs to be done to improve that.

There are institutions that do this quite well. Earlier this year, the Public Accounts Committee visited NASA, in Washington. As a result of the tragedies with the Columbia and Challenger space shuttles, the people there have a very open approach to raising concerns. However junior someone is, they are expected to raise a concern up their chain of command in their specialist area, and if they are still concerned, they can take that to another party within the organisation—a whole other set-up—to make sure that they are challenging the approach taken on risk. That is expected. It is embedded in the training that people look at the risk and make sure that they are calling things out. Nothing is too small, and no one is too junior.

[Gareth Snell]

My hon. Friend probably has unparalleled experience in this House, through her important scrutiny work as both a member of and Chair of the Public Accounts Committee; I was happy to work with her on many inquiries when I was a member of that Committee too. Could I tempt her to tell us how many millions on public procurement projects we might have saved had the system that she has just described been in place in this country? How many hours of time might have been spared? It sounds like an incredible system, and one that this country should seek to emulate.

[Dame Meg Hillier]

As ever, my hon. Friend manages to cut through to a really important issue. It is not only about the whistleblower; in the whole public sector and parts of the private sector, it is time-consuming and cumbersome to deal with whistleblowing on both sides, and it is very mentally draining, particularly for the whistleblower. It is costly when a mistake happens and is not caught early. A stitch in time saves nine, as they say. That is very much the bread and butter of what the Public Accounts Committee does; it looks at where problems have arisen that could have been predicted and prevented.

The Chancellor is to launch her Budget next week and we need to save money, but—I am not being flippant—in the long term we need to see a change in culture. Aviation is another example of where things happen well. In that sector, it is expected that people call things out. Things do still go wrong, but staff get praised, rather than penalised, for calling out what might happen in safety terms.

This debate has come at an important time for my constituent, Sarah McMahon, who has agreed that I may share with hon. Members her sad experience as a whistleblower. Sarah is a consultant orthopaedic and limb reconstruction surgeon at Great Ormond Street hospital for children. In the summer of 2021, she was asked to look after some patients of her colleague, Yaser Jabbar, after he had an accident. Overseeing those patients, she found things that made her so alarmed that she blew the whistle in the autumn of that year. I am sure many Members will have heard about that case in the media; in short, Mr Jabbar was accused of inappropriate and unnecessary surgeries that led to life-changing injuries for children in his care.

Sarah McMahon wrote to suggest an external review, but nothing was done to address her concerns and Mr Jabbar was allowed to continue operating on children. She tells me:

“I was effectively told to keep quiet and concentrate on my own patients.”

Despite that, Ms McMahon bravely continued to raise concerns about Mr Jabbar and the harm caused to children in his care, and in February 2023—some 18 months after she first raised her concerns—an investigation by the Royal College of Surgeons began. That investigation concluded in spring this year and the outcome is now well known. When the investigation was launched, Sarah learnt that Mr Jabbar had raised counter-allegations against her. It was only last week that Sarah was given any information about those counter-allegations, which Great Ormond Street hospital has now confirmed were completely unfounded.

How terrible it must be for a surgeon doing their very best, working alongside a colleague with no animosity, and then discovering that there were problems. Sarah had to raise her concerns; it was absolutely the right thing to do, professionally and for the patients. She wrote to me about her experience of raising the alarm, saying:

“I have since been threatened with disciplinary action without proper basis. I feel sidelined and excluded in my work and I am exhausted. The impact of this stressful process on my health, family, reputation, and career has been profound. I feel greatly let down by the way I have been treated as a whistleblower.”

Three years into this ordeal, it is clear that hospitals cannot mark their own homework when it comes to whistleblowing concerns.

I want to raise with the Minister some points, not all of which are directly related to his portfolio. I hope that he and his civil service officials will take them back to the relevant Departments, as I ask him directly for a detailed response. An amendment is proposed to the Employment Rights Bill that would give further protection to whistleblowers; I hope it will be considered sympathetically or, if necessary, rewritten by the Government to make it work and deliver on that intention. I also hope that the Cabinet Office works hard to improve the situation across Whitehall. Its representatives appeared before us when I chaired the Public Accounts Committee, so we know that there are some bits of good practice, but a lot more needs to be done. I hope that the Government commit to making that a high priority.

I will not repeat the points that were made very well by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central about the importance of the duty of candour, but I will say that we need that to be embedded in the system if we are to change the way these things work. I endorse the points made about the office for the whistleblower. Crucially, I hope that the Minister will talk to the Department of Health and NHS England. If we want to modernise our health service and ensure that patients are safe, we need to support brave people—like Sarah McMahon—who have had to go through the mill to raise concerns that have been proven to be very well-founded.

I will end with Sarah’s own words:

“Unless the safety system is radically reformed my advice to future colleagues facing this problem would be: ‘raise it, because you must, but do not expect to survive what follows.’”

What a terrible indictment of the system so far. I hope the Minister takes that message back to the relevant Departments.

15:10

[Mrs Sarah Russell (Congleton) (Lab)]

I thank all those who have spoken before me in such an informative manner and to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) for securing the debate.

I have advised numerous whistleblowers throughout my career. Some themes emerge from the experience that speak directly to the points raised by a couple of previous speakers about the impact on whistleblowers when they realise there is something seriously wrong in their organisation and they speak up about it. I have found, particularly in the NHS, that there is an institutional reluctance—and I think I can understand it. I think it is psychologically extremely difficult for people to accept that their department might be systematically failing or sometimes actively damaging patients, and the result is that they tend to turn on the person blowing the whistle and to ostracise them. What follows is an investigation into that person’s behaviour or conduct as relationships deteriorate, and often then a dismissal under the term “some other substantial reason”.

There are five potentially lawful reasons for dismissal, including misconduct, incapability and so forth. One is “some other substantial reason” for dismissal. That phrase is really a catchall for, “There is some sort of decent reason for sacking this person”, but the case law has developed in such a way that “some other substantial reason” for dismissal can just be an absolute breakdown of relationships between people who work together—and that is almost always the case where there is a whistleblower. The result is that we have a massive gap in our law, whereby people who have blown the whistle are systematically being dismissed for “some other substantial reason”.

One of the most effective things we could do within the scope of the current system would be to outlaw the use of “some other substantial reason” dismissals in a whistleblowing framework, so that if someone has blown the whistle, there cannot be a “some other substantial reason” dismissal. There would still be the ability to dismiss for misconduct if there has genuinely been misconduct, but in the situations I have seen, that has usually not been the case; it is just that people have fallen out.

I think there is scope to improve whistleblowing protections in the current system. We could do it through amendments to the Employment Rights Bill, which is making its way through the House. In the longer term—I appreciate that this is not currently fiscally viable—but we could look at extending legal aid to whistleblowers. We could extend to whistleblowers the legal aid protection available to people on low incomes for discrimination claims; that would be in the public interest and would nicely back up the duty of candour that we have been talking about introducing. We could also look at whether the suggestions being made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central could be linked to the fair work agency, and whether we could in due course extend the powers of that agency to examine this issue.

It is a terrible thing to advise whistleblowers, because they are so distressed—certainly one of the most distressed client groups I have ever come across. Whistleblowing is typically completely career-ending for them, and the results for many are terrible. We should look at whether our unfair dismissal legislation is well placed to handle such matters. I again thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central for raising this topic for debate.

15:14

[Chris Bloore (Redditch) (Lab)]

Thank you for chairing this debate, Sir Mark. I have learned a valuable lesson this afternoon: get in there early, because if you do not, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my hon. Friends the Members for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) and for Congleton (Mrs Russell) will make all the points that you had planned to far more eloquently. I have cut some of my notes so my speech will be brief, but I reaffirm many of the recommendations that they made.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) for securing this debate and for his chairmanship of the all-party group for whistleblowing. This is the right week to have this conversation, and I am glad that other Members have joined us. As someone who, in a previous life, was a councillor and represented a family affected by Hillsborough, I know all too well the damage that the lack of candour there sometimes is in public life can inflict on a family. I saw that family destroyed while fighting for justice. I now have the honour of representing a family deeply impacted by the Horizon scandal, and I have seen the damage that it has done to them.

When whistleblowers speak out, it is so often the nature of organisations and institutions to look internally to protect themselves, instead of looking for the root cause of the problem. One of the problems I have noticed too often is the lack of confidence whistleblowers have about speaking out. My inbox is currently full of people—whether they are in the NHS or other public institutions—writing to put forward concerns about the level of services being provided to members of the public, but all too concerned about what will happen to their job prospects and their families if they do not have the protections to speak out. Too often, whistleblowers are our last line of defence when processes and institutions fail. Too many brave men and women, in seeking to protect the public, have been badly failed by the laws in place in this country.

I share the confidence of my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central in the Government’s commitment to addressing that imbalance and making sure that people feel that they have the protections to speak out. I hope that the Minister, in his response, will be able to reassure us that the Government remain committed to those pre-election pledges to ensure that people who are prepared to risk everything to protect the public and the public interest will have the confidence to do so, not just because it is the right thing to do, but because—as we have so often learned, including during our brief time in this Parliament—it costs us an awful lot of money as a country to redress those problems when we fail. I apologise for the slightly short nature of my speech, but I thank you for the opportunity to speak today, Sir Mark.

15:17

[Clive Jones (Wokingham) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to be here under your chairmanship, Sir Mark, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) on securing the debate. The existing Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 is simply not good enough; it is woefully inadequate in keeping pace with the modern workplace. For example, it does not cover all types of workers, such as members of the armed forces, volunteers and self-employed individuals. It forces whistleblowers to prove that they made a “protected disclosure” and that any retaliation they suffered was directly linked to their whistleblowing. That burden of proof can be very difficult to meet, as employers may mask retaliatory action as unrelated. Protection often requires whistleblowers to go through stressful employment tribunals, with limited remedies beyond compensation.

The inadequacies do not end there. The Act requires disclosures to be “in the public interest”, but that term is vague and has been subject to differing interpretations in the courts, creating uncertainty about whether specific whistleblowing cases are protected. There are insufficient provisions in the Act for emotional, financial or legal support for whistleblowers, leaving them vulnerable as they often face significant personal and professional risks after disclosing information.

That list of flaws within the existing law feels endless, so the Liberal Democrats are championing the need for reform. We support passing a comprehensive anti-SLAPP— strategic lawsuits against public participation—law to provide robust protection for free speech, whistleblowers and media scrutiny against lawsuits that seek to intimidate and silence criticism. We want to ensure that there is justice for the victims of scandals and prevent them happening in the future. We want the Government to establish a new office of the whistleblower, creating a new set of legal protections and promoting greater awareness of their rights. The Labour party did some positive work on that while in Opposition, so I would be grateful for the Minister’s views on the Liberal Democrat proposals and whether the Government will prioritise similar reforms.

I would also like to remind the Minister of the ask from my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper) during an Opposition day debate last week. Please can he give an assurance that, if the people at the Department for Work and Pensions have information about maladministration of the service that they have witnessed, and they wish to come forward with that information, they will be protected as whistleblowers?

15:21

[Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) on securing this debate. I thank the hon. Members for Wokingham (Clive Jones), for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier), for Congleton (Mrs Russell) and for Redditch (Chris Bloore) for their contributions this afternoon.

I welcome the fact that so many Members recognise how valuable it is that whistleblowers are prepared to shine a light on wrongdoing and believe that they should be able to do so without recrimination. Whistleblowers do absolutely crucial work to expose wrongdoing and ensure accountability. Forty-three per cent of economic crimes are highlighted by whistleblowers, and workers are often the first people to witness any type of wrongdoing within an organisation. Information that workers may uncover could prevent wrongdoing that may damage an organisation’s reputation or performance, and in extreme circumstances, even save people from harm or death.

For authorities tackling corruption, fraud and other forms of crime, whistleblowing is a crucial source of evidence, as those activities and their perpetrators can often be exposed only by insiders. That was keenly felt during the height of the covid-19 pandemic when the Care Quality Commission and the Health and Safety Executive recorded sharp increases in the number of whistleblowing disclosures that they received; and during the Horizon scandal, when a whistleblower was featured in a BBC “Panaroma” documentary in 2015, as has been mentioned, which helped to expose the truth, contributing to the successful postmasters’ legal case in 2019.

The UK’s whistleblowing framework was introduced through the Public Interest Disclosure Act. It was intended to build openness and trust in workplaces by ensuring that workers can hold their employers to account and then be treated fairly. It provides a route for workers to make disclosures of wrongdoing, including criminal offences, the endangerment of health and safety, causing damage to the environment, a miscarriage of justice or a breach of any legal obligation.

The previous Government recognised that there was weakness in that framework and made numerous attempts to improve it. In 2013, the Government published a wide-ranging call for evidence on the effectiveness of the framework, and in 2014, set out a plan of legislative and non-legislative means to improve it. That plan included extending protections to student nurses and midwives, regularly updating the list of prescribed persons and introduced a requirement of prescribed persons to produce an annual report on whistleblowing disclosures that they receive.

Moreover, under the guidance of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), the previous Government launched a review in March 2023 of the whistleblowing framework. That review examined the effectiveness of the framework in meeting its intended objectives, which are to enable workers to come forward and speak up about wrongdoing and to protect those who do so against detriment and dismissal. The initial fact-finding element of that work was completed by Grant Thornton in January this year, as I think the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central mentioned in his opening speech. The Government response and the recommendations were awaited, and that work was yet to be completed before the election was called.

We on the Opposition Benches welcome the Government’s decision to strengthen protections for whistleblowers, including by updating protection for women who report sexual harassment at work. We will support the related measures in the forthcoming Employment Rights Bill. As Protect set out, this will

“send a clear signal that anyone who has been sexually harassed, or witnessed it, can raise their concerns through whistleblowing channels and will be protected from being victimised or dismissed if they do so.”

The Government have not yet published a response to the review of the whistleblowing framework. The review would provide an up-to-date evidence base on whistleblowing, allowing the House to effectively scrutinise the Government’s proposals. Will the Minister commit to publishing that review and, if so, when?

15:25

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Justin Madders)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Sir Mark. I start by offering my triple congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell): first, congratulations on returning to this place—it is good to see him back—secondly, congratulations on securing the debate; and thirdly, congratulations on being appointed chair of the all-party group for whistleblowing, which I am sure he will lead with distinction. We have heard a number of very important and passionate contributions today. I will do my best to sum them up, but it is fair to say that we are looking forward to working with all Members across the board on this very important topic.

Before addressing some of those points, I will start by discussing the current whistleblowing framework. As Members have said, it is essentially about employment protection, and that is the reason why I am here, as the Minister for Employment Rights, to respond on the Government’s behalf. The protections were introduced by the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998, which amended the Employment Rights Act 1996.

The legislation was intended to provide a route for workers to make disclosures of information that they reasonably believed were in the public interest and tended to show a relevant failure or someone covering up a relevant failure. Those relevant failures could include criminal offences, the endangerment of health and safety, causing damage to the environment, a miscarriage of justice or a breach of any legal obligation.

Disclosures need to be made in line with the requirements of the legislation, usually to a worker’s employer or lawyer, or a prescribed person. As Members may know, there are more than 90 different prescribed persons under the legislation to whom relevant failures can be reported. They are usually regulators, such as the Equalities and Human Rights Commission and the Financial Conduct Authority. I will not go through every single prescribed person today, but most have a statutory obligation to report on the disclosures that they receive and to publish the reports annually.

Since the reporting requirements came into effect, there has been an increase in the number of disclosures that are made to prescribed persons. The volume of disclosures is around 50,000 a year and, as we can probably tell from the contributions today, they are highly concentrated in the health, public administration and financial and insurance sectors. The reports summarise the actions that a prescribed person has taken, but there is variation in how that information is protected. As we have discussed, workers have, under the law, a right not to be dismissed or subjected to a detriment as a result of making a protected disclosure, and there is recourse to an employment tribunal. The number of employment tribunal complaints under the jurisdiction for protected disclosure in each year since 2017-18 has increased, reaching 3,128 in 2020-21. That is the latest year for which a full dataset is available.

But enough of the overview. We need to talk about some of the important contributions that we have heard from Members. This debate is really about how whistleblowing affects individuals. We know that it can fundamentally and irrevocably damage, indeed end, that relationship with the employer. We know there are reasons why people will not speak up: some are in senior positions and fear for their career or their reputation, some may be at the other end of the spectrum and fear insecurity and power imbalances that may make it difficult to speak up, and some may have a link to the organisation but may not be covered under the legislation.

I would like to make a few comments about the contributions in this debate. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Chris Bloore) for contributing. I am sure if he had come in earlier, his speech would have covered many of the points that had already been made, but that is the lottery of Westminster Hall, and I am sure there will be many opportunities for him to speak earlier in other debates. He referenced a number of Members’ speeches.

It was particularly pleasing to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Mrs Sarah Russell), who brought her professional experience to bear today. She made an interesting suggestion about the use of “some other substantial reason” as a potentially fair reason for dismissing someone in whistleblowing cases. We probably need to look at the use of “some other substantial reason”, as it is likely that it gets overused. However, as she will be aware, the current Employment Rights Bill has enough in it for us to be getting on with. She made an interesting suggestion in respect of the potential use of the Fair Work Agency here, and that is something we will bear in mind.

The Liberal Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Wokingham (Clive Jones), highlighted some of the legal issues under the current legislation, including the question whether someone is within scope, the hurdles that they have to overcome to qualify for protection and the public interest test. Those are all things that we want to look at in a broader sense, if we get around to a review of the legislation. I take his point about officials in the Department for Work and Pensions, but I hope that this Administration would want to be an exemplar of best practice, and we would want people to feel confident that they can speak out if they see a wrong or an injustice.

It was a pleasure, as always, to hear from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), in his customary place—I may have swapped positions, but he remains a permanent fixture over there. He spoke very movingly about his friend Brian and the great personal cost of his efforts to expose wrongdoing. Brian’s resilience came through in the hon. Member’s description of his fight. As he said, it was about doing the right thing, and his message was that,

“you are not alone when you do the right thing.”

We should be sending that message to anyone who thinks about blowing the whistle. Of course, the matter is devolved to Northern Ireland, but that message should ring out across the whole of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) raised some specific issues about the Department of Health and Social Care and her constituent Sarah McMahon. I am sorry to hear of the three years of personal difficulties Sarah McMahon has suffered as a result of doing the right thing. Unfortunately, too many organisations make it very difficult for individuals who blow the whistle. I understand that the Department for Health and Social Care has concluded a review of the statutory duty of candour, and it has issued a call for evidence, which I think is ongoing. I take her message of frustration about the length of time that these things take, and I will pass that message back to the Department.

However, my hon. Friend made the important point that some organisations have got it right and encourage people to speak up when they see a wrong. There are some very good examples, including the aviation industry, which is a particular exemplar of that. It is the standard that we should be aiming for.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central, who opened the debate, said that the law looks at how things happen after the disclosure, and always through the prism of an employment relationship. That was a good analysis of where we are and perhaps why there are shortcomings in some of the legislation. I agree that this is about the law giving people the confidence to speak up. I am sure we will return to some of the things we hope to do on that.

[Gareth Snell]

I ask the Minister and his colleagues across Government to look at the way we fund and support our regulatory bodies. Often, the failure reported by a whistleblower would have been prevented from happening in the first place by a properly funded and resourced regulator. As much as anybody else, he will know that times are tough and budgets are tight, but investment in the regulatory framework early doors could help to save money and lives, and prevent people from having to put their own homes on the line to do the right thing.

[Justin Madders]

My hon. Friend makes a very fair point. I suspect that a week ahead of the Budget we will not get the kind of investment he would like to see. He talked about the legislation, focusing on existing employment relationships and the broader ambit of employment. The legislation was probably framed in that way in the first place because that is where the biggest power imbalance lies: between an employer and their employee.

We can consider how we would broaden this out, but we will bring in particular measures with our Employment Rights Bill. Hon. Members will be aware that Second Reading took place last night, when we made some specific announcements on our overall package. The Bill is the biggest upgrade in workers’ rights in a generation, and in it we will address specific issues about whistleblowing on sexual harassment. The Trades Union Congress states that 58% of women have been sexually harassed at work. That is a staggering, appalling figure that must be tackled, and it is one of the reasons why we want to improve people’s ability to ring the alarm bell when sexual harassment occurs.

The Bill will require employers to create and maintain workplaces and working conditions free from harassment, including by third parties. It will strengthen the legal duty of employers to take all reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment before it starts, and it will enable regulations to specify steps that an employer must take to protect their employees from sexual harassment to ensure that effective steps are taken. It also includes protections for whistleblowers and will make clear that sexual harassment can be the basis for a protected disclosure, which is one of the most important steps we can take to make workplaces safer. Workers who make a protected disclosure will then have legal recourse if their employer subjects them to a detriment for speaking up.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central mentioned, as did several other Members, the possibility of an office for the whistleblower. There were a number of suggestions about the potential remit and role that it could have. Clearly, the cost and precise functions and powers of that would need careful consideration, particularly in how it would relate to current regulators. The point he made about the resources of regulators is relevant to that. There would also have to be some consideration given to how it would exist as an independent body from Government. I must disappoint my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton by saying that the pledge to create the office did not make it into our final manifesto, but that is not to say we are ruling it out forever and a day. We will consider it as we look at a broader review of the whistleblowing framework.

On that point, I will address the remarks made by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Orpington, about the review initiated by the previous Government, which was intended to assess the effectiveness of the whistleblowing framework against its original objectives. As he rightly pointed out, that review was not released before the general election. It certainly does not seem appropriate for us to let that work go to waste; I will talk to my officials about how and when we can release that information, but I see no reason why we should not do so. It will be a starting point for further work in this area.

The number of issues raised today shows that the appetite for reform in this area is much broader than the review commissioned under the previous Government recognised. Of course, other measures are due to be enacted in the next 12 months, but we can do more to ensure people feel confident when they speak out.

As several Members said, the King’s Speech made clear that we will deliver on our manifesto commitment to implement a Hillsborough law to introduce a legal duty of candour on public servants and authorities. The Prime Minister made clear that that Bill will enter Parliament before the next anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster. We believe it will be a catalyst for a change of culture in the public sector by improving transparency and accountability where public services have failed. It will help to address the unacceptable defensive culture that is prevalent across too much of the public sector. It has been said several times that the NHS is one of the worst examples of that; certainly, from my experience, there is a hard focus on trying to justify actions, rather than get to the root of the complaint.

Bishop James Jones’s report made it clear that those things have to change, not just in the NHS, but across the whole public sector. That Bill will be an important starting point in changing the culture both in the public sector and across the country. We all want it to improve so that whistleblowers have the confidence to speak out and have the assurance that, if something happens to them as a result, they will be protected and supported.

15:41

[Gareth Snell]

I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for his summation. I will make a couple of final points. I absolutely understand that the office of the whistleblower did not make its way into our manifesto, but I say to the Minister that the circumstances that led us in opposition to support to such a suggestion have not changed. Although I appreciate that we have had an election and Governments have changed, even an undertaking to meet those of us who think this proposal is part of the solution, to discuss it and go through it, would be welcome—

[Justin Madders]

indicated assent.

[Gareth Snell]

The Minister is nodding. I hope Hansard will record that fact for the purpose of my follow-up letters.

The Minister is right: I have no doubt that the Government will take seriously the protections that whistleblowers need, and that will require development and the evolution of our current protections under PIDA. That needs to be looked at. The opportunity to make the case would be welcomed. not just by me, but by those who have been campaigning on this issue for many years.

We could have spent many hours debating this subject. Members from all parties have cases in their inboxes involving individuals speaking out and coming to them with concerns about organisations, actions and activities that they have seen and are worried about. People can come to Members of Parliament; we are defined in legislation as people such issues can be reported to, and we have a duty to understand our own responsibilities and what we can do to help to foster and bring about the changes that are being raised by individuals who are brave enough to put their head above the parapet.

We have had only 90 minutes today. The contributions have been excellent, but I am sure that lurking in our inboxes will be cases of individuals who are just looking for help. One thing we should take away from this debate, which is timely as it is Whistleblowing Awareness Week, is that Members of all parties have a genuine desire to make it easier for whistleblowers to blow the whistle, and to make it better for those who come forward so that they do not suffer detriment and are not penalised for having done the right thing.

As my friend the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) rightly pointed out, we must send the message to those people that they are not alone, and that if they speak up, stand up and do the right thing, there are people in this place and around the country who will have their back, ensure they get the justice that they deserve and prevent the harm that could be done. I thank all Members for taking the time to participate in this debate.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered protections for whistleblowing.

15:45

Sitting suspended.

Pie and Mash: Traditional Speciality Guaranteed Status

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Westminster Hall

15:59

[Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)]

I will call Mr Richard Holden to move the motion and I will then call the Minister to respond to the debate. There will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up, as is the convention normally for 30-minute debates. However, we have one or two other Members present who may wish to intervene. It is obviously down to Mr Holden to determine who may or may not intervene on him, if he has not been given prior notice.

[Mr Richard Holden (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the potential merits of providing traditional speciality guaranteed status to pie and mash.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark, in this debate. What is this debate all about? Well, there is a big picture and a little picture, and I will start off small. In my constituency of Basildon and Billericay, there are two fantastic pie and mash shops: Robins Pie & Mash in the town square; and Stacey’s pie and mash shop on Timberlog Lane. Both of them provide fantastic local produce and they are absolute hubs of the local community. And it has been really interesting to see the feedback that I have already received from local people about this campaign to give protected status to this traditional British product.

What is pie and mash and why is it a traditional British product? It is a staple of cockney cuisine, moving out to places such as the east of England and Kent as the cockney diaspora moved post-war. That is why there are pie and mash shops in Basildon today. We seek recognition to safeguard the heritage of pie and mash, and to promote pie and mash, both here in the UK and internationally.

Back in the 1840s, pie and mash became an iconic food, closely associated with cockney culture and the social identity of non-posh Londoners. Over the years, more than a hundred pie and mash shops, typically family-owned, spread out from the inner London heartlands of Southwark and Tower Hamlets right across the areas across the country where the cockney diaspora had spread to.

Traditional pie and mash is an artisan food. The pie and mash and liquors are freshly made, using authentic family-owned recipes that have been passed down through generations like precious heirlooms. They are something that in Italy or France, let us say, would be instantly recognised as being worth celebrating and preserving, and I will say more on that broader point a little later.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the right hon. Gentleman for bringing this matter forward. I was speaking to him beforehand and told him about what I have been able to do in the past. The Comber Early is a special potato back home. I applied to the EU for special designation status for it, which the EU granted. Does he hope to pursue something outside the EU—now that the United Kingdom is out of it—for pie and mash that is similar to what we have done in the past?

[Mr Holden]

That is exactly what I am attempting to do and I commend the hon. Gentleman for his work in this space. Actually, there are not enough British products that we have talked up for their local credentials and their special place in our country’s heritage, national cuisine and national heart.

France has over 800 products that have similar protected status and Italy has just under that number; the number for the UK is under a hundred. Given our culinary heritage, and particularly the culinary heritage of London as a global centre of cuisine, and given the great and diverse range of products and foodstuffs that we have across the country, we should be doing more in this area to talk up Britain and British food, to boost both food exports and our tourism.

Having more of these marks of protected status, whether that is the protected designation of origin or the geographic indication, would be a good start, but I am also thinking today of the third category, which is the traditional status guaranteed. That is not specifically geographically limited but is about the way that a product is produced. Pie and mash would be another brilliant food to do that for.

[Sir Gavin Williamson (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing this debate. He picks up on a very important point. In Staffordshire we have the famous Staffordshire oatcakes, which are enjoyed across the world. Does he agree that we need to focus on bringing regional cuisine to the forefront so that it can be exported more around the world and across the country?

[Mr Holden]

I could not agree with my right hon. Friend more. We should be doing everything we can to talk up regional cuisine from all parts of our country. I cannot think of anything better to come out of this debate than to ensure that regional food products such as pie and mash or Staffordshire oatcakes find their way on to the House of Commons menu in one of our regular regional food events. I hope that the catering team are listening, so that we can get these products promoted further.

Traditional speciality guarantee does not rely on a geographical connection but the way that a product is produced. I am sure that the Modern Cockney group I have been working on this with, and their founder Andy, and Ben who has been working with them from Loadstone, will be more than willing to get into the nitty-gritty details of what is required with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs over the coming months. This is just a small step in what we should be doing for more of our food products from across the country.

Traditional speciality guarantee is needed because there is a well-trodden media narrative that pie and mash is in decline. We are in an age of global fast food brands, yet pie and mash has shown a stubborn refusal to die. It has been really good to see it thriving in the shops I have visited. I have been multiple times over the last few months, particularly to the ones in Basildon. I have seen families going there, with fathers taking their daughters out. It is important that that continues, because it is great to see it thriving on a local level.

Right across the country, we have seen changes in demographics and taste. This has perhaps seen the movement of traditional pie and mash shops from their heartland in London out to places like Basildon and the new towns of the east of England. Cornish pasties and Bramley apple pies have traditional speciality guarantee, but we now want to see that for pie and mash. Pie and mash made by artisans is the next step in that direction. It is too often looked down on, and we need to start thinking about how we can celebrate it better.

[James McMurdock (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Reform)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising this subject. Does he agree that we can be guilty at times of taking our heritage for granted? I would like to commend you for raising this, because you have made me realise just how fortunate we are to be a part of this. Would you agree with me that—

[Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)]

Order. You speak through the Chair.

[James McMurdock]

Forgive me. Would the Chair please pass my message on that as with the Cornish pasty and the Bramley apple pie, this is something we should be very proud of, and we as a people should recognise that we have a lot to be proud of?

[Mr Holden]

I cannot possibly agree with the hon. Member any more. Many of his constituents wander across the road to get to the pie and mash shops in my constituency, and I encourage them to do so even more in the future. He raises an important point about us as a country not recognising some of the great food heritage that we have and what an asset it is to our country.

I had an email from a constituent today—a chef working in a Michelin-starred restaurant in London—who had read about the debate being proposed in Parliament. He and his son agreed that we need to talk up what we have traditionally produced. He said that they love the original pie and mash and that he wishes us every success in the campaign. I thought that was a really good sign. Yes, there is obviously high-end cuisine that we want to celebrate at a national level, and I am sure that is exactly what the Government and DEFRA want to do too, but traditional speciality foods need to be looked at in the broader context and celebrated too.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

I am grateful to my Essex neighbour for giving way. My pie and mash journey began when I was a child in north London. I then moved to Basildon, and have eaten pie and mash in the Robins Pie & Mash shop many times. I now have two good ones in my constituency: Rayleigh Lanes Café and the Turkish café on the high street, both of which do very good pie and mash, which shows what a cosmopolitan food it has become. Does my right hon. Friend agree that pie and mash is a great British food? I want to do everything I can to endorse his campaign and give it the recognition it deserves.

[Mr Holden]

I thank my right hon. Friend and neighbour for raising that. I cannot wait to come down to Rayleigh and Wickford. Maybe we could do an Essex pie and mash championship and get an awards scheme going—maybe that is the next step for this campaign. But my right hon. Friend also makes an important point. Everybody starts somewhere on their journey with pie and mash. Mine started as a 19-year-old when I moved to east London and came across pie and mash for the first time. If we gave pie and mash a little bit of a status boost with traditional speciality guaranteed status, it would perhaps be opened up to more people, and more people might want to think about it. It would also provide a boost to that sector, particularly as our broader hospitality sector, as hon. Members know, has suffered since the covid pandemic and we are hoping to get it back on its feet.

So what are we after? We are after traditional speciality guaranteed status. We are not after a geographical designation, but we are after something that recognises the important traditional heritage of pie and mash. When do we want it to happen? Well, as soon as possible. I hope the Minister will look forward to working with the Modern Cockneys and pie and mash shops to bring it to fruition.

This debate points to something wider about British culinary heritage, about how we view food in Britain, and perhaps a little bit about how we view our own food in this country. That is something we need to look at again. We need to look at how we can celebrate it more. I hope that, as hon. and right hon. Members have mentioned, other parts of the country will look at how we can champion their local food produce—yes, in order for it to be recognised locally, which is a nice thing, but also for the broader economic narrative, whether that is exports or tourism.

I thank my pie and mash shops in Basildon and Billericay for putting up with me invading them over the last few weeks, particularly Robins, which has had the national media with it over the last couple of days. To everyone, I say: get out there—try that pie and mash. To the Minister, I say: I hope we will be able to get this status. I hope that at the end of this process, we can say to him, “Yes, Pie Minister.”

16:13

[The Minister for Food Security and Rural Affairs (Daniel Zeichner)]

It is a great pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Sir Mark. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Holden) on securing this debate on the potential for traditional speciality guaranteed status for pie and mash. I was delighted to hear him say that he will start small, because I can guarantee him that this Government will go big on food and regional food in general. I am so pleased to see that Opposition Members now have time on their hands to tour the very best hostelries in their constituencies. The right hon. Gentleman can rest assured that we are absolutely determined to celebrate our great British food.

I will start by talking about pie and mash. As a hearty meal with roots in the docks of London, pie and mash has long been cherished as a working-class staple, part of the rich culinary heritage of our capital city. Of course, it is not alone in being a recognised feature of London’s food landscape. London cure smoked salmon, produced in east London for over a century, is already recognised with a protected geographical indication. Products such as those show how local traditions can thrive and how we can celebrate them for their authenticity and tradition, which has been developed over a long time.

Let me say a little about the policy background to the debate. Geographical indications, or GIs, are an internationally recognised mark of quality and authenticity. They help to protect and promote the heritage, tradition and production methods of our most iconic food and drink products. They provide consumers with the confidence that they are purchasing genuine, high-quality products. Each one of the UK’s 93 protected products is the result of a unique combination of geography, history and know-how. Products such as Welsh lamb, Scottish salmon, Lough Neagh eels and Sussex wine showcase the diversity of our cuisine and highlight how GI schemes promote a range of traditional products.

Those designations can also play a role in enhancing tourism, attracting visitors eager to experience authentic local flavours. Many places proudly promote the GI status of their cherished foods in marketing campaigns to highlight the visitor offer. Through national recognition, local producers are celebrated and their industry sustained for future generations, creating new jobs and opportunities.

One example of using protected status to celebrate place and tradition is the Cornish pasty story, which was mentioned. That is underpinned by its protection as a PGI, but there are many others. Other products have become the focus of events, such as the Melton Mowbray food festival celebrating the region’s renowned pork pie, and the “Taste of Scotland” initiative championing Scotch whisky and beef. The Government are keen to see those fantastic products and events continue to grow in strength and reputation in future.

GI products represent around 25% of the UK’s food and drink exports by value. There is strong demand for British products around the world, with GIs indicating quality and providing a means of unlocking international markets for our producers. The protection of GIs through free trade agreements offers a platform for exemplary UK produce and supports their export growth while broadening market access opportunities.

Those agreements safeguard the principle of the UK’s GI system and maintain its high standards of protection. My colleague the Business and Trade Secretary announced in July that the Government would restart trade talks with a range of countries, such as India, South Korea and Turkey. We will seek protection for our world-class GIs through those negotiations. GI protection in trade agreements will not only support our rural communities and traditional industries, but help us to build the UK’s global reputation for excellence in food and drink production.

The Government want to see GIs grow in stature as part of our national food culture. Our GI conference held on 3 September was a key step in that effort, bringing together stakeholders from across the sector to discuss how we can best promote our GI products. By sharing the stories behind our GIs and highlighting the passion and craftsmanship that go into making them we can help to ensure that more consumers both here and internationally are aware of and appreciate the value of these products.

[Mr Francois]

I thank the Minister for giving way. Perhaps through him I could take up the gauntlet that my neighbour and right hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Holden) threw down in a friendly manner. Although Robins Pie & Mash will be difficult to beat, I will pitch my pie and mash shops against his, perhaps for charity, and we will see who the winner will be.

[Daniel Zeichner]

Although I am grateful for that intervention, I certainly would not want to stand in the way or promote rivalry between the two right hon. Gentlemen. I am sure they can sort it out between them, achieving a satisfactory outcome for all.

In conclusion, the Government are committed to celebrating the UK’s GIs and will continue to promote them at home and abroad, working to ensure that the benefits are felt across the country. Although due process prevents me from commenting today on whether pie and mash would qualify for TSG status, I would warmly welcome a formal application. I am pleased that my officials are working closely with the proposer.

Question put and agreed to.

16:19

Sitting suspended.

Large-scale Energy Projects and Food Security

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Westminster Hall

16:30

[Llinos Medi (Ynys Môn) (PC)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered large scale energy projects and food security.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. Today is an opportunity to highlight the importance of food security in the face of the climate crisis, which is the biggest threat to food security. I believe that we must tackle climate change in a smart way that works best for our economy and communities. That is particularly true of areas where agriculture plays an important part in the economy and sustainability of our communities.

My constituency of Ynys Môn has been known as Môn Mam Cymru, or the mother of Wales, as the island’s fertile lands were used to grow food for all of Wales during the middle ages. Farming and agriculture are an important part of the island’s heritage and economy.

Ynys Môn is also known as energy island. We have a vital and developing tidal sector, onshore wind farms and two solar farms, with another one approved. We also have the nuclear site at Wylfa. I urge the UK Government to commit to a new nuclear power station at what is the best site in the UK.

Food and energy production are two strands that run throughout our island’s history, in balance with one another, not in opposition. However, I fear that recent developments will upset that balance. There are proposals for two large-scale solar farms on the north of Ynys Môn, covering 3,700 acres, around 2% of the island. The biggest of the two proposals—Maen Hir energy—is five times the size of the UK’s largest active solar farm. It will have a generating capacity of 360 MW and be considered a nationally significant infrastructure project, requiring development consent from the UK Secretary of State. Maen Hir will take up 3,173 acres of land to host solar panels and the associated infrastructure. The developer, Lightsource bp, says that the land predominantly consists of agricultural fields.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Lady for bringing forward this debate. This is an incredibly important issue—it was important in the last Parliament, and it certainly is in this one. Does she agree that we must continue with the previous Government’s intent to ensure that the best agricultural land is used as such, and not for solar farms? The improving farm productivity grant allowed rooftop solar panels to receive grants, and is an essential tool in helping farmers to farm and to do so in a sustainable and somewhat better and more profitable manner.

[Llinos Medi]

I totally agree and will go on to explain more on that.

[Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)]

Order. We are going to go very close to the time limit in this debate. I ask Members who want to speak to resist intervening. Members will only get three minutes each, in order to accommodate the wind-up speeches from the Front1 Benches.

[Llinos Medi]

Thank you, Sir Mark.

The developer has also said that the project will maintain the land’s agricultural use, such as livestock raising and wildflower planting, enriching the local environment. However, the development presents a clear risk to the future of many farms on the island. Many farms rent the land rather than own it themselves. They will not feel the benefit of any lease fees being paid out to the landowners and their loss of income will likely result in many farms folding. Campaigners have pointed out that the land proposed for Maen Hir and Alaw Môn could see land equivalent to 31 farms being lost to solar panels. That would be devastating for the communities and the economy of Yyns Môn.

We know that the agricultural land in Wales is valuable. The Farmers Union of Wales says that the gross value added per hectare of agricultural land in Wales is £568.28. Applying that figure to the Maen Hir development would result in agricultural land with a GVA of over £558,000 being developed on. Removing that agricultural land from use would clearly damage the economy of Ynys Môn. Maen Hir will have an operational life of up to 60 years. During that time it will create only 12 full-time jobs. The local corner shop will offer more jobs.

It is estimated that both projects could create billions of pounds of profits for the companies involved. However, the Maen Hir project alone will result in a loss of £33 million in GVA for Ynys Môn. Clearly, the financial benefits will not be kept within Ynys Môn. At the same time as extracting profits, the developer for Maen Hir has threatened landowners with compulsory purchase orders if the application is approved. I am extremely concerned about our farmers’ mental wellbeing as they risk seeing their livelihoods destroyed by a large corporation extracting profits from our natural resources.

In Wales, we have the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, a law designed to ensure that the world we leave our children is better than the one we inherited. Food security and ensuring the supply of high quality, locally grown food is so important for the future of our young people. As the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales says,

“Wales needs a resilient, long-term plan that shifts agricultural impact towards having a positive outcome on climate and nature restoration, ensuring safe, affordable, healthy diets for people, especially children. Rural and farming communities are a big part of the solution—they are integral to feeding Wales, protecting nature and are part of our vibrant culture and thriving Welsh language.”

What discussions has the Minister had with the Future Generations Commissioner regarding the Maen Hir energy project and its implications for the well-being of future generations in Ynys Môn?

A recent news report has shown that only 6% of vegetables used in school dinners in Wales are grown in Wales. As the climate crisis continues we should grow more locally, not decreasing the amount of food we grow on our land. I note that the UK Government have established a solar taskforce and have a target for delivering 70 GW of solar energy by 2035—more than quadrupling the current capacity of 15.5 GW. The development of solar farms is an issue that will be of great importance going forward. It is crucial that our energy security plans are co-ordinated with food security plans. That means thinking carefully about where the projects go and how they affect our economy, food security and community resilience.

It should be Government policy to safeguard good quality agricultural land when considering development of large-scale energy projects. Will the Minister explain what importance the new Labour Government will give to food security in the process of deciding on new energy projects? There are alternatives to large-scale solar farms, such as the use of rooftop solar on buildings and car parks.

The countryside charity Campaign to Protect Rural England estimates that all suitable roof space and car parks in the UK could generate a staggering 117 GW, substantially more than the Government’s total target of 70 GW by 2035.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

In Huntingdon we have a new solar farm proposed that is going through the planning application at present. It will be 1,900 acres in size. East Park Energy covers a vast range of farmland, all of which is grade 2 or grade 3a. Does the hon. Member agree with me that until we fully explore the opportunity to put solar panels on rooftops, we should not be pursuing putting solar power on good quality farmland?

[Llinos Medi]

I totally agree; I think that solar on good agricultural land is a very lazy way of producing green energy. I will move on to tidal energy.

I ask the Minister what can be done to ramp up smaller scale solar developments. There are other clean technologies that can be deployed. I call on the UK Government to commit to new nuclear on the Wylfa site, considering its huge potential to generate local jobs and clean energy.

Wales also has huge potential when it comes to wind and sea power. By 2050, the National Energy System Operator predicts that Wales will be using 42 TWh of energy, around three times more than today. However, we will be generating 71 TWh of energy, making Wales a major electricity exporter to the rest of Great Britain.

Ynys Môn has a growing tidal sector, with the pioneering Morlais project off its coast. That could be developed further by giving certainty to investors to develop tidal stream technology by seeing clear targets from the UK Government. Can the Minister set out what the Government are doing to maximise Wales’s huge energy potential, given the recent disappointment with the latest contract for difference auction—and will he listen to the calls to set a 1 GW deployment target for tidal stream by 2035?

I urge the Government to listen to my community. We need a smarter approach to large-scale solar farms that works with the needs of our communities and to safeguard food security. I am open to working with the Government to ensure that the transition to net zero is fast and fair to the people of Ynys Môn; will the Minister meet me to take that forward? There is a way where we harness our island’s full potential and maintain our long tradition of producing abundant food and energy in harmony.

16:41

[Mr Luke Charters (York Outer) (Lab)]

Thank you for calling me, Sir Mark. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Llinos Medi) on securing this debate.

My perspective is informed by my work as the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on UK food security —which the hon. Member is welcome to join—and also my role as a member of the Labour Growth Group, which I suspect she may not be willing to join. I am also proud to be an MP who represents some fantastic rural communities.

In all of those roles, I have seen how renewable projects offer farmers crucial opportunities to diversify their income streams in an unpredictable economic climate. The notion that food security and renewable energy are somehow mutually exclusive is a non sequitur. It does not add up, neither logically nor practically. I can attest to this from my own constituency, where thriving farms producing everything from carrots to poultry co-exist alongside new solar schemes, like Hessay, and hopefully Elvington, too. But when a harsh season strikes—such as a devastating flood or drought—farmers face the real possibility of losing a significant portion of their harvest. In those scenarios, having additional income from solar energy can help.

A striking example of this comes from Australia, where sheep farmers have turned to solar farming as secondary income. They allow their sheep to graze among solar panels, keeping the grass short while the panels provide shelter from the sun. One farm even demonstrated an increase in wool production after the installation of their solar farm. It is that kind of innovation in agriculture that we should embrace. The notion that food security and renewable energy are at odds falls at the first inspection.

Currently, ground-mounted solar panels occupy just 0.1% of all land in the UK. Even with ambitious expansion, this is expected to rise to no more than 0.3%. To put that into perspective, that is less than the land currently used by golf courses, and solar farms provide essential services, be that clean energy or income. Finally, solar farms are often built with temporary permissions, and can be decommissioned, returning the land to its original state. Soil disturbance during installation is minimal, and solar farms can actually benefit soil health, helping it recover from a period of intensive agricultural use.

Let me be clear: climate change is itself a major driver of food insecurity. By supporting renewable energy projects, we are not only protecting our environment, but safeguarding the future of food production.

[Adrian Ramsay (Waveney Valley) (Green)]

I thank the hon. Member for his comments. He has rightly highlighted that solar farms can be combined with food production. There are studies showing that there are even ways in which crop yields can be increased. But would he therefore encourage the Government to be clearer in their national planning policy framework that if solar farm applications are being put forward, they should be combined with food growing as part of the application?

[Mr Charters]

What will really help is if we work towards a position of having a land management framework, so that we can have the clarity of addressing some of these challenges.

Let me continue. The argument that there has to be a trade-off between food security and renewable energy is misguided. If anything, our farmers’ future depends on our commitment to both. With a small slice of land, a forward-thinking approach and a commitment to combating climate change, we can ensure that our fields are productive for generations to come. The solution is clear: renewables should be seen not as an obstacle to food security, but as a powerful tool to help secure it. As I said, golf courses will take up more land than solar projects, so let’s not get caught in the rough—we need to aim straight for the green.

[Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)]

I remind Members to bob or to stand if they wish to speak. We are going to be very short of time and I will cut to the Front Benchers when appropriate, even if some Members have not spoken, so if you speak for too long, you are taking time off others.

16:46

[Greg Smith (Mid Buckinghamshire) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. In following the hon. Member for York Outer (Mr Charters), I will start by putting the other side of the argument that he was trying to develop about compatibility or incompatibility with solar installations. I use the word “installations” deliberately, because the word “farms” conjures up images of warm, cuddly, nice things that we all like to see in our countryside, rather than these brutalist fields of glass, metal and plastic that take away the natural landscape as well as food production. I have no issue with farmers who wish, on a very modest scale, to take 10, 20 or perhaps even 50 acres of totally unproductive land in order to diversify into an energy project, be that ground-mounted solar or a wind turbine, or whatever it might be, but the clue is in the debate title: this is about the large-scale solar installations that are being proposed.

Rosefield in my constituency started off as a 2,100-acre proposal; the developers are trying to trim the edges a bit, but there is still a reality that it will take away food-producing land. The National Farmers Union’s own statistics show that we are losing land from cultivation at a rate of 100,000 acres per year. I understand that the proponents of ground-mounted solar want to talk about very low fractions of a percentage today, but if we look at the number of applications coming through in my constituency and, I dare say, in many other hon. Members’ constituencies, the cumulative impact will be considerable. Take Rosefield alone: we have already seen two battery storage proposals on prime agricultural land right next door, as well as National Grid having to come along and say, “Ah! If all these proposals go ahead, we are going to have to rebuild East Claydon substation to take in the power that these facilities are allegedly going to be generating.” And guess what, Sir Mark? That is on yet another farm in that neighbourhood, taking away more food-producing land.

[Anna Gelderd (South East Cornwall) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Member for giving way, and the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Llinos Medi) for securing the debate.

Cornwall, and South East Cornwall in particular, has the potential to lead the way in the renewable energy revolution and in relation to our food security, offering significant opportunities. Does the hon. Member for Mid Buckinghamshire (Greg Smith) agree that it is essential to have a balanced approach that respects our farming and fishing communities, which play a vital role both locally and in national food security and in relation to the environment, on which they depend? We must seize this opportunity to address Cornwall’s economic challenges and ensure that we do not damage ecosystems, as they play such an important role. A partnership approach would enable these essential areas across the UK, and Cornwall in particular, to succeed.

[Greg Smith]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention and congratulate her on squeezing her speech into it. I would argue that, yes, a balanced approach is right and important, but this goes to the nub of the argument that ground-mounted solar is actually incredibly inefficient. When we have something in scarce supply—land, in this country—we need to go for the technologies that are going to deliver.

I have used these important statistics in Westminster Hall before and I will make my penultimate point with them today. We need 2,000 acres of solar panels to produce enough power for 50,000 homes on current usage; for a small modular reactor, we need the space of two football pitches and it will produce enough power for a million homes. A single wind turbine will produce enough power for 16,000 homes and probably needs only half the size of the room we are in right now.

This debate is about efficiency and proper land use. It is about getting to renewable energy production, but it is also about using technology that does not destroy our countryside and that does not fundamentally take away our other core source of national security, which is food production.

16:50

[Catherine Fookes (Monmouthshire) (Lab)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Llinos Medi) on securing this important debate. As she is a fellow MP representing a rural Welsh constituency, she will be more than aware that our agriculture and energy sectors play a huge rule in the Welsh economy, and I welcome this opportunity to highlight the great work of our local farmers and energy projects. I salute my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer (Mr Charters) for saying that there is a symbiotic relationship between energy security and food security; we can deliver on both counts.

It is important to remember that consecutive Conservative failures have wreaked havoc on our energy security and allowed the skyrocketing of energy bills for every family and business in Britain. This badly impacted farmers’ incomes when energy prices went up so high. The Conservatives’ failure to invest in clean energy has left a legacy of high energy bills, energy insecurity and a lack of clean energy jobs. The new Labour Government have hit the ground running, with our actions to deliver on our clean power mission, including through the Great British Energy Bill.

There is certainly a need for further development of large-scale clean energy projects across Wales, and those projects need to be in the right places, such as floating offshore wind in the Celtic sea and the fantastic Morlais scheme, which has recently been instigated by the Crown Estate.

Just as energy security is now a priority under this new Government, we also understand the pivotal role that our farmers play in our nation’s food security. That is why I am so proud to have stood on an election manifesto that committed to 50% of the food bought by the public sector being locally produced and sustainable. That is extremely important. It is important to me—as a smallholder in Monmouthshire, the proud daughter of a farmer and the representative of many farmers across Monmouthshire—that farmers’ voices are heard, and they are given the respect and understanding lacking under the last Government.

Finally, I know that Ministers in Wales, Welsh MPs and Welsh farmers welcome the return of constructive intergovernmental relations to ensure that Welsh farmers get the fair funding they deserve where they are supplying public benefits for public goods.

16:52

[Rupert Lowe (Great Yarmouth) (Reform)]

It is a pleasure, Sir Mark, to serve under your chairmanship. I thank the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Llinos Medi) for securing this debate.

As one of the very few farming MPs—I have 865 acres of arable land and grassland—I am perhaps as qualified as most people here to speak about food security. Let me be abundantly clear: farming in the UK is on the verge of a catastrophic decline, unless some crucial decisions are made to revive the industry.

Farming is a very capital-intensive business— requiring both extensive investment in machinery and long-term planning—which desperately needs certainty to achieve real and sustainable success. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs causes far more problems than it solves, through high staff turnover, a rapidly mutating rulebook and its disdain for farmers.

This harvest has been very poor for most. Input costs remain high, world prices remain low and the weather for autumn drilling has been the worst I have ever known. Desperation is spreading across British agriculture, with farmers feeling entirely ignored by everybody in these buildings.

The risk-reward of farming is now favouring uptake of schemes that do not produce food. This is complete madness. We will all be affected if logical, long-term guidelines are not implemented, promoting farming and the people who understand it, rather than an army of pen-pushing bureaucrats.

In my opinion, we need to do the following as a matter of urgency: use productive land for food production; get the public sector buying British, including in all Parliament buildings; launch a big, national buy British campaign; enforce clear labelling so that people know what they are buying; allow and encourage diversification by improving planning across the country; set up more farming apprenticeships to address the ageing workforce; slash red tape; review the power of the supermarket distribution oligopoly structures; respect country sports; let farmers farm; and—here’s a mad one—listen to farmers.

Productive land must be used not for solar panels, not for rewilding, not for house building, but for farming. Always remember: no farmers means no food. We must ask ourselves: what happens then?

16:56

[Matt Rodda (Reading Central) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Llinos Medi)—I hope I have pronounced the constituency name correctly—on securing this important debate, and Members from across the House, including my own colleagues, on their speeches. I support the points made by my hon. Friends the Members for York Outer (Mr Luke Charters) and for Monmouthshire (Catherine Fookes). I should also declare an interest: I have a number of family members, although somewhat distant, who are farmers.

My experience of solar, including from visiting solar farms near Reading, is entirely positive. I want to describe a visit I went on with the former Conservative Minister, the former Member for Hexham. We visited a large solar farm next to the M4 motorway that is on a reclaimed site—a site that had been landfill and before that gravel pits, but which has been re-adopted as grassland with ground-mounted solar. The benefits for the economy are clearly enormous. The landscape imposition of the site is minimal, as it is on reclaimed land next to a motorway.

I would like to hear more talk about how land that has been reclaimed, or has low landscape value, can be used. I understand that in much of the country there are large areas that fall into that category. Certainly, my own county of Berkshire has the M4 motorway running through it, and we have other areas of lower landscape value, as well as some of very high landscape value. I would like to see a sensible approach, protecting very valuable landscapes.

My visit to the solar farm was entirely positive. The site is financed by pension contributions; it provides a long-term source of energy, as well as a long-term source of income to pension savers, which is also important, and general benefits to the economy. It was a huge win-win for everybody. While I was there, the former Member for Hexham—who has a strong rural background —pointed out to me the ability of sites to be built in the UK so that livestock can graze under the solar panels. His own experience in the north-east of England was exactly that. I commend that point to the House.

I will add a few related points. The hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Rupert Lowe) pointed out the pressure on farming incomes. It is worth remembering that many farmers are seeking to diversify. There is a strong tradition of farmers renting out disused barns and workshops to small enterprises. There is a place for farm diversity, and it is important to think about that aspect of farming. We should be commending farmers for their entrepreneurship and ability to be adaptable, as well as supporting them, as we do in many other ways.

It is also important to remember that there are large farm buildings in our landscapes that have had relatively light treatment in planning terms. I am thinking of the hon. Member for—I apologise, I cannot quite remember his constituency—

[Greg Smith]

Mid Buckinghamshire.

[Matt Rodda]

Mid Buckinghamshire—fantastic. He is obviously a Thames valley MP, like me. There are some large farm buildings in our part of the south-east that already—from the point of view of landscape—have a very large visual impact. Some ground-mounted solar arrays are low; they can be screened if they are looked at from ground level. The site I visited had trees on one side—obviously not shading it—so that a passer-by on a footpath would not necessarily know it was there. We need to bear in mind the importance of balancing different issues while looking at this topic, of working together in a cross-party way, and of supporting the move to a sustainable future and a sustainable economy.

16:59

[Sarah Dyke (Glastonbury and Somerton) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Sir Mark. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Llinos Medi) on securing this important debate.

Farmers across the country are leading the UK’s renewable energy charge, and already host about 70% of the UK’s total solar generation capacity. Hosting renewable energy infrastructure can help British farmers at a time when they desperately need it, so the ability to diversify their business has been welcome for those who can do so. However, food security is paramount to national security. Energy security and food security go hand in hand, so we must secure the future of British farming.

Worryingly, recent research from Riverford Organic Farmers has found that 61% of farmers feel that they will have to give up their farms in the next 18 months due to financial pressures. British farmers have had to deal with significant challenges in the wake of Brexit, and the previous Conservative Government failed to give them the support they needed. They botched the transition from basic payments and negotiated damaging trade deals, all the while managing a staggering £358 million DEFRA underspend over the past three years. The Liberal Democrats know that we must support the nation’s farmers, and that is why we need to boost the environmental land management budget by £1 billion. Reports that the new Government are considering stripping £130 million from the agriculture budget are hugely concerning. That would be a serious misstep at a time when the nation’s food producers can least afford it.

In Glastonbury and Somerton, many farmers and landowners are taking the opportunity to host ground-mounted solar panels. Over the past few years, they have been installed in Cucklington, Milborne Port and Wincanton, to name just a few places, but it is important that solar farms are not developed on our best and most versatile land. The national planning policy framework states that poorer quality land should be used in preference.

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Sarah Dyke]

I will not, given the time.

Poorer quality land can still be productive, as sheep can graze underneath the solar panels, while the solar array provides a diversification opportunity for the farmer. It is important that the updated NPPF keeps that distinction so that poorer quality land with the ability to under-graze remains preferable to the best and most versatile.

We must make it easier for farmers to put solar panels on agricultural buildings. Solar arrays are space intensive, and can sometimes compete for land that would otherwise be used for other purposes. Putting solar panels on the roofs of farm buildings would avoid any land use conflict.

Rural communities such as Glastonbury and Somerton are leading the solar energy movement. My constituency is in the top 50 English parliamentary constituencies for domestic solar generation capacity. The Government should be looking to improve on the success of rural communities by enabling more solar panels on agricultural buildings, with affordable access to rural electricity grid connections. To ensure we are food secure, we must ensure that the future of British farming is safe. We must therefore give our farmers the support they need to feed the nation and protect our environment. To reach net zero by 2045, we must support the roll-out of renewables. Supporting farmers to host renewable infrastructure is common sense, but it must not be on our best, most versatile and most productive land. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments—

[Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)]

Order. I call Ann Davies.

17:03

[Ann Davies (Caerfyrddin) (PC)]

Diolch, Sir Mark. It is a pleasure to take part in this debate led by my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Llinos Medi).

Land use is so important to this discussion. We all support green energy products. In fact, in Caerfyrddin many wind farms and energy park projects are already working their way through the planning system. Most people accept that if we want the lights kept on, this is the way forward. However, land is not infinite. Farmers like me—it is lovely to see a fellow farmer here—use it to produce food.

In a world in which there is more food insecurity than ever before, we need to ensure that any productive piece of land is used for that purpose. As my hon. Friend said, in Wales we produce only 6% of our publicly procured vegetables locally, and that needs to change. In Llanarthney, where I live, we have an exciting project in which we have taken over a council-owned farm to produce vegetables for the public plate. The Bremenda Isaf project has produced 5 tonnes of vegetables on 2 acres in this cold, wet year, due to the skill of the growing team of two and another two who help alongside the project.

Shared prosperity fund money was used to fund that innovation and the benefit to Ysgol Bro Dinefwr and to Awel Tywi residential home, to name just two beneficiaries, is immense. Nutritionally superior fresh vegetables are tasty; if they are tasty, the residents will eat more, and if they eat more, it results in better health outcomes. The carbon footprint is negligible and it is an excellent example of farm to fork.

We can learn from the Bremenda Isaf model and establish initiatives that not only look after our land, but feed the nation—or, in my case, feed the public plate in Carmarthenshire. That can work in harmony with energy production if we use our land in a sensible and targeted way. Land can be used for energy production, it can grow food, it can be used for infrastructure and homes, but we need an adult conversation on how it can be used and where large-scale energy parks need to be placed. For example, we need to decide whether the mountains around my constituency produce lamb or beef or are solely used for energy parks—or whether, with thought and community consideration, the two can co-exist.

My ask of the UK and Welsh Governments is to listen to the points raised in this debate about the need for large-scale energy projects and infrastructure, and to help maximise the use of our valuable agricultural land for horticulture and food production.

17:06

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

My remarks will be very short. I want to speak in relation to Northern Ireland, which produces enough food to feed over 10 million people across this United Kingdom and right across the globe. We must ensure our food security is protected alongside our energy. The two can be done hand in hand, but it is important to put on record the need for protections against vast amounts of our prime agricultural land being used such that it is taken out of production, as many of these solar farms are doing. There have been massive strides around solar farms, with sheep and activities able to continue, but not enough. There needs to be more investment into making solar farms friendlier to production and agricultural use alongside them.

On the part of Northern Ireland, we cannot allow those large-scale solar farms to be placed right across our countryside, putting our food security in jeopardy. I believe it undermines our own food self-sufficiency and will result in us becoming more dependent on importing food, which is contrary to what we want to be doing.

17:08

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

It is a pleasure, Sir Mark, to listen to this lively debate and I congratulate the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Llinos Medi) on bringing it to the Chamber. There are clearly some different opinions, but I think the overall consensus does obviously emerge. Food security and energy security are equally important. Clearly we should not be displacing good productive farmland for any use that is not food production. As I understand it, the pressure comes mainly from landlords evicting active tenant farmers from their land. In that context, I first ask the Minister whether the Government will actually bring in the long-awaited tenant farming commissioner, who would look at these tensions between landlords and tenant farmers.

As we have already heard, the threat to UK food security comes not from renewable energy projects, but from a number of complex interrelated issues relating to how our food is produced, how it is subsidised, sold onto the middleman and supermarkets, and to a demand and supply mechanism that is broken.

At the heart of our food supply problems globally is climate change. Therefore, tackling climate change must be our top priority. Solar plays a major part in our efforts to get to net zero. More renewables also means less dependence on oil and gas and better security for our constituents when it comes to their energy bills. This year, England will produce 26% less wheat than in 2023. This comes after the wettest 18 months since records began. The loss of wheat in 2024 alone is over 5,000 times greater than the loss of food production caused by three new solar farms being approved in July. These are the figures we need to take into consideration.

When it comes to food supply and security, solar farms are a drop in the ocean compared with what we lose to the climate crisis. Meeting the UK Government’s plans for increasing solar energy by 2035 would mean using about 0.3% of the UK’s land—and we have already heard the comparison with golf courses. We need to look at how we sensibly use all our land. My constituency of Bath is served by solar energy from Lightsource BP, which is helping the UK to transition to net zero through solar projects. Projects like these need timely grid connection, and the Minister will know that that is currently the biggest barrier to farmers diversifying their income through renewable energy.

Even if all future ground-mounted solar was built on farmland, the impact on UK food production as a result of the change in land use would be very small. As solar technology develops, it will need less space in the future. An example is bifacial panels that capture solar light on both sides of the panel. There are also types of solar panels where crops can be grown below. Many farmers who are unlikely to volunteer their best land for solar power are positive about this technology. Many solar farms are home to grazing animals like sheep, which live alongside the panels. We do not have to choose one or the other. Many farmers find it useful to lease less productive land to energy companies for solar farms, providing much-needed additional income. If farmers must keep productive farms, they must also be profitable. It would be bad for food security to take away what could be an important income stream for farmers.

The National Farmers Union agrees on the importance of renewables and says that,

“solar projects often offer a good diversification option for farmers.”

We should not be prohibiting farmers from using their land how they best see fit. If crops can grow and livestock can graze while the same land accommodates solar panels, where is the issue?

We need to guarantee food security by implementing a national food strategy. The Liberal Democrats would boost the farming budget by £1 billion. We must support farmers to produce high-quality food to high standards while also improving our natural environment, and we must encourage people to buy local. It is so important that people understand the connection between locally produced food and high-quality food—and, yes, we occasionally have to pay a little bit more for it, but these are the important connections and arguments we need to make.

The Liberal Democrats have been calling for a proper visa and seasonal worker scheme. This would allow our farmers and fishers to access the workforce they need. We would also provide an extra £1 billion for the ELM scheme to support profitable, sustainable and nature-friendly farming across the UK. The Government also need to ensure effective regulation of UK food systems, agriculture and land use. We would seek to strengthen DEFRA, which is currently under-resourced and undervalued.

We should not have to choose between solar farms and food security. Farmers must be free to make their own choices and be supported to do so, and I hope the Government are listening to farmers.

17:14

[Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)]

I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Llinos Medi) on bringing forward this incredibly important debate. I visited her constituency once and a half on nuclear business—the half was due to me travelling on a rain-soaked day in May when events in London called me back somewhat earlier than planned. I completely agree with her points regarding Wylfa being the perfect site for a new nuclear power station, not only in the United Kingdom, but within Europe. I would urge the Minister to heed her words and move forward with what we had planned to do, which was to deliver a third gigawatt-scale reactor at Wylfa.

The last time this debate was heard in Westminster Hall—indeed the last time I was in Westminster Hall—I had the privilege of responding as a Minister to the debate brought by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Buckinghamshire (Greg Smith). With circumstances somewhat changed in the intervening months—the cast list has changed considerably—I now respond as the shadow Minister. When speaking for the previous Government on the subject, I guaranteed that, should we be returned, the Conservative Administration would not countenance the industrialisation of our green and pleasant land. I gave that guarantee from this very place, though standing on the Government side, only six months ago. We changed the planning guidance to ensure that food and energy security were equally important and that top graded agricultural land would be protected, and began the process of ensuring independent verification of soil samples to ascertain the quality of land on which building was proposed.

At that time, I do not think anybody knew how soon the political landscape would be transformed, but I do know that at the time of the debate, colleagues in government were acutely aware of how the Labour party—now the Government—might have been inclined to drastically transform the energy landscape. It was telling, however, that not a single Labour, Liberal Democrat or SNP Member was in attendance at the debate that day, apart from the official Opposition spokesperson.

Indeed, within the first few months of this Government we have seen Labour ride roughshod over our attempts to protect rural Britain from the over-development we had pledged to oppose, with the approval of three mammoth solar farms: in July, the 2,000 acre Mallard Pass, the Gate Burton energy park in Lincolnshire and the Sunnica energy farm in Suffolk and Cambridgeshire. More recently, we heard of the Corton solar farm.

The Government have committed to trebling solar capacity by the end of the decade. Speaking on his decision to approve those solar farms, the Secretary of State said:

“This is a Government in a hurry to deliver the change it promised.”

Our concern on the Opposition Benches is that the Government are in far too much of a hurry. That hurry leads the Government to ride roughshod over communities’ views, to disregard their discontent, and to sign over agricultural land to industrial use. I am sorry to say that that is a mistake on a number of fronts.

When I spoke on the subject as Minister for Energy, I acknowledged the fundamental need to balance the competing priorities and needs of our finite resources. We believe in solar power, on homes and on brownfield and industrial sites. Under the previous Government, we saw a near 5,000% increase in the number of homes with solar panels, to 1.5 million homes. Solar will play its part in our renewable energy mix and, I might add, has the support of many farmers, as a vital component of their land use, which serves to buoy the financial viability of their arable or livestock ventures through providing secure income.

Farmers host around 70% of Britain’s solar power capacity and many have integrated solar power to some extent, either through panels on outbuildings or by dedicating parts of their land to solar panels. However, we must acknowledge that the primary use for that land is and should remain agricultural. We must protect our domestic ability to feed Britain. Through the pandemic and the aftermath of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the fragility of international supply chains has been illustrated. It is vital that we protect our domestic agricultural capacity.

We produce only 60% of our own supply currently, with every development of 2,000 acres chipping away at potentially productive farmland. The ambition to reduce our carbon footprint, to produce more clean, cheap energy to power our homes and businesses, is a cause that rightly unites us across the House; I hope I am correct in thinking so. I know that the Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, the hon. Member for Rutherglen (Michael Shanks), likes to think that his side of the House has a monopoly on that mission, but I remind him that it was the previous Government who oversaw the first to the fifth largest offshore windfarms in the world being built off British shores. The previous Government achieved the fastest decarbonisation in the G20 while still growing the economy, halving emissions during our period in office.

The Minister has our support for the ambition to decarbonise our energy sector and supply cleaner energy for the UK, but I gently say to him that this headlong rush to 2030 is alienating people in rural communities up and down the country. They too often feel that they are shouldering the burden for keeping the lights on in cities far from them, and that the sheer scale of this infrastructure build is leaving many across our islands feeling under siege.

I speak as the MP for such a community, and know that only too well. I am sure that newly elected Labour MPs representing rural constituencies, in some cases for the first time, will see in their inboxes the fear and anger being generated by these plans. We are united in our desire across the House to reduce our carbon footprint and to conserve our planet for future generations. However, it is evident that on these Benches we have a very different idea of how to attain that ideal. Our path to a cleaner future would not ride roughshod over community consent and would not sacrifice prime agricultural land.

I ask the Minister please to listen to the concerns raised by hon. Members from Plaid Cymru, the Liberal Democrats, the Conservatives, the Reform party and the Green party, and from everybody who has spoken—bar from the Government Benches—in this debate. Please listen to them and ensure that food security has equal importance to energy security in the eyes of the Government.

17:19

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Michael Shanks)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. I thank the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Llinos Medi) for securing this important debate. We have been in a number of debates on topics like this over the past few weeks. It is great that her speech reflected that she is a champion of the renewable sector and the benefits that can bring to her constituency. She said that her constituency is now known as “energy island”, which is a true reflection of the powerhouse it has become in recent years. It has established technologies: solar, as she talked about, but also onshore wind and a number of other projects to come. It is also home to some of our newer technologies: tidal stream projects of around 38 MW are in the contracts for difference rounds, and we will be talking much more about that in the future.

I thank hon. Members for the tone of today’s debate and for their contributions. Our starting point, which the Government have been very clear on from day one, is that we want to deliver clean power by 2030. We want to do that for a number of reasons: to protect people from the wild price spikes that they suffered because of the volatility of global fuel markets, to tackle climate change—a lot of the discussion today on the importance of agriculture misses the importance of tackling climate change, which is currently having an enormous impact on farms right across the country and, if we do not act faster now, will continue to have an even greater impact—and to deliver the energy security the country needs.That will involve a diverse range of projects and technologies

We are not putting one technology forward as the answer to everything—this is about balance, as several hon. Members said today. Yes, ground-mounted solar plays a really important part, but so too does roof solar. We are not picking one or the other. Both are incredibly important, and there are huge opportunities for a rooftop solar revolution, which we will be seeing more about in the months ahead. But ground-mounted solar also has an important role to play. This is a question of balance.

[Adrian Ramsay]

The Minister always engages in a collegiate manner, which I welcome. On rooftop solar, I am sure, despite the disagreements today, that we would all agree that more solar on rooftops is crucial for tackling the climate crisis energy bills. Could he therefore confirm that the future homes standard will require all new homes to include solar panels as standard?

[Michael Shanks]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and for the collegiate way in which he engages in these debates. We will be saying more about the future homes standard in due course, so I will not announce that here, but his point has been heard.

I want to come back to the point about balance. It is key in a lot of the contributions made today, and indeed in other debates on this subject over the past few months. We have to find a way to balance the environment and our need to protect nature with supporting local communities to make sure that we can deliver cheaper, more secure energy in the future and tackle our climate change objectives. But new energy infrastructure is important in every single one of those points, so we have to build that infrastructure. The question is how to ensure we get that balance right. That is why we have announced that we will have a land use plan—something the previous Government failed to do. But it is also why we need to plan a lot of that infrastructure much more carefully.

I reflect on the point made by the hon. Member for Mid Buckinghamshire (Greg Smith) about the number of projects in particular areas, because we can take a lot from that about the cumulative impact of projects. That is why, just today, we commissioned the National Energy System Operator to carry out the first strategic spatial energy plan of the whole of Great Britain. Crucially, we recognise that if we plan new energy infrastructure much more strategically, we will avoid some of the questions that he raises. That is a really important point.

Nothing we have said rides roughshod over the planning system. The planning system in this country is extremely robust. People will continue to have opportunities to engage in that process and be consulted on. No matter the size of the energy project in question, it will be subject to a rigorous planning process, and the views and interests of the local community will be taken into account. On that point, I want to reflect on another Westminster Hall debate on community benefits, which are important here as well, and which the hon. Member for Ynys Môn mentioned in her opening speech. We need to do much more on community benefits, and solar is particularly important in that discussion. We have been very clear as a Government that we want to look at whether they should be mandatory rather than voluntary, and whether we should have a much clearer set of objectives for those funds so that there can be real community benefit. Ultimately, we want to do this with communities. Communities will have to host this infrastructure—there is no getting away from that—but it is important that they benefit from it in the process.

Finally, the Government recognise that food security is also national security, and we will champion British farming while protecting our natural environment. That is why we have already said that we will introduce a new deal for farmers to boost rural economic growth and strengthen Britain’s food security.

I want to be clear: I do not believe for a second that the accelerated roll-out of clean energy infrastructure poses a threat to food security. There are, of course, huge competing demands on land use throughout the country, and they have to be balanced. However, taking solar as an example, even under the most ambitious plans in the country, less than 1% of the UK’s agricultural land would be occupied by solar farms. I am afraid that the rhetoric does not meet the reality. That point has been backed up by the National Farmers Union, which believes that every farm is well positioned to deliver small-scale solar, wind or battery storage, which can be used on the farm but also provides benefits for local communities.

Food production is incredibly important, as is energy production. Those two are not mutually exclusive, and we can find a way for them to co-exist. I was interested in the point made by my hon. Friends the Members for York Outer (Mr Charters) and for Reading Central (Matt Rodda). I recently visited Manor Farm solar farm, which is a good example of combining an agricultural strategy with a solar farm. It also contributes to the rewilding of areas and to the managed improvement in nature in the local community, which was not being done by the mismanaged agricultural land before, so we can get real benefits from it as well.

This is an important debate, and the balance is key. We have made no secret of this: we want to see the rapid development of energy infrastructure. It is important because people are paying far too much in their bills and we are exposed to volatile fossil fuel markets. For every year that we remain exposed to those markets, we remain vulnerable to the price spikes that our constituents are facing, so it is important to move at pace. I recognise the point made by the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) about the pace at which we are moving, and I am grateful for his recognition of that.

This is our clean power mission. Together, we can provide energy security, reduce costs to consumers, deliver on our environmental responsibilities and ensure that we have economic growth and responsible use of land right across the country. I will close by thanking all hon. Members for participating in the debate. I hope that we will have many more of these discussions. They are important debates to have, and together we can find the balance and deliver the infrastructure and food security that the country needs.

17:27

[Llinos Medi]

I thank all Members for their contributions. Very quickly, I want to point out that there are not over 4,000 acres of golf courses on Ynys Môn, so the cumulative effect is something that we seriously need to consider. A UK-wide approach to numbers and figures will have a detrimental effect on Ynys Môn. Spatial planning is seriously needed, and both Governments have missed the fact that the energy and infrastructure strategies go hand in hand. Ynys Môn is seen as a place because of the grid capacity. On the impact on our rural economy, reclaimed land is totally different from good agricultural land that is creating livelihoods today.

I am glad that we have had the conversation. I want this debate to be a mature one where we balance the effects of the climate crisis and the crisis that we face in food production and the cost of producing that food.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered large scale energy projects and food security.

17:29

Sitting adjourned.